11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 8th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 WADE ALAN LACROIX, Affirmed 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 11 7 8 9 10 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 302 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1446 Document Number 2005539. Resume of 4 Wade Alan Lacroix. 11 5 P-1447 Handwritten notes of Wade Lacroix, 6 May 28 - June 08, 1993, June 25 - 7 July 07, 1993, August 23 - August 30, 8 1993, November 05 - November 10, 1993, 9 February 15 - February 23, 1994, April 10 22 - May 03, 1994, May 25 - June 22, 11 1994, October 03, October 10, 1994, 12 October 26, November 08 - November 16, 13 1994, May 04 - May 09, 1995, September 14 12 - October 02, 1995, April 28, 1997. 25 15 P-1448 Document Number 2005525.. Wade Lacroix's 16 Handwritten notes dated February 24 - 27, 17 March 01, August 11 - September 11, 1995, 18 February 24 - September 11, 1995. 26 19 P-1449 Document Number 2002363, "Occupation of 20 Ipperwash Army Camp: Logistics Plan". 51 21 22 23 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1450 Document Number 2001063. Letter to 4 Solicitor General from Township of 5 Bosanquet re. Disputes over return 6 of Army Camp Ipperwash to Chippewas 7 of Kettle and Stony Point, copied to 8 Wade Lacroix, May 30, 1994. 78 9 P-1451 Document Number 2001342. Faxed 10 Intelligence sent by Staff Sgt. Lacroix 11 re. "Solidarity Day" June 21, 1994. 12 Agenda for Celebrations for Kettle and 13 Stony Point First Nation, June 20, 14 1994. 93 15 P-1452 Document Number 2001832. Sarnia Observer 16 article "Temperature Hot, Tempers not at 17 Kettle Point Beach Picnic" with quote 18 from Staff Sgt. Lacroix, June 22, 1994. 94 19 P-1453 Document Number 2000348. Emergency 20 Response Team Training Manual, 21 March 22, 1994. 98 22 P-1454 Diagram of OPP Box Formation marked by 23 witness Mr. Wade Lacroix, May 08, 2006. 125 24 P-1455 Diagram of OPP Cordon Formation marked by 25 witness Mr. Wade Lacroix, May 08, 2006. 126
101 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1456 Photograph number 5; Facing north on 4 East Parkway Drive showing gate 5 leading to Park. 285 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 10:10 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, everybody. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. The Commission calls as the next witness, 13 Wade Lacroix -- Lacroix, excuse me. 14 MR. WADE LACROIX: That's all right. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 morning. 17 18 WADE ALAN LACROIX, Affirmed 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Thank you. Mr. Lacroix at the -- in 22 the first black binder in front of you that has Volume I 23 on it, that's the one. You can put the other one over on 24 -- over to the side. 25 At Tab 1, there's a copy of Inquiry
121 Document 2005539 and is that a curriculum vitae resume, 2 your resume? 3 A: Yes, sir, it appears to be. 4 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 5 the next exhibit please. 6 A: P-1446, Your Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1446: Document Number 2005539. 10 Resume of Wade Alan Lacroix. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And I understand that you joined the 14 Ontario Provincial Police in 1975? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And you were first posted to the 17 Cayuga Detachment? 18 A: Yes, sir, it's true. 19 Q: And that was -- you served there for 20 approximately two and a half (2 1/2) years until 1977? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And then you were posted to the 23 Kingston Detachment for three (3) years? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And that was from 1977 to 1980?
131 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And then the London Detachment from 3 March 1980 to May 1986? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And in 1986 you were transferred to 6 the Petrolia Detachment and initially you were a -- 7 A: Corporal. 8 Q: -- Corporal and then a Sergeant; is 9 that correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And you were in the Petrolia 12 Detachment from May 1986 to June 1988. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And at Petrolia, in the period of May 15 1986 to June 1988, you were a Shift Supervisor? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And I'll come back to this but during 18 the period of time before you went to Petrolia from the 19 period 1980 to 1986, you were a member of the Tactical 20 Rescue Unit? 21 A: Yes, sir. During my time in London 22 I'd actually went to London Detachment to a standalone 23 unit at London DHQ -- 24 Q: And when you initially -- 25 A: -- TRU team.
141 Q: -- joined the unit, it was a part 2 time position as a member of the TRU team? 3 A: That's true, sir. 4 Q: And then in 1988 you were promoted to 5 Staff -- Staff Sergeant and you joined the TRU team as a 6 team leader based in London? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And in 1988 that was a full time 9 posting as I understand it? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And you remained as a team leader 12 with the TRU team until February 1993? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And in February of 1993 you returned 15 to the Petrolia Detachment as Detachment Commander? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And remained Detachment Commander 18 until December 1988? 19 A: Yes, sir. But -- 20 Q: I mean 1998 -- 1998, excuse me. 21 A: Yes, sir. There's one (1) year 22 missing I just noticed there. I never left Petrolia 23 Detachment when I was Detachment Commander, yes. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: I never left that area and I -- I was
151 Detachment Commander. It's just that's a one (1) year 2 gap looking at this resume to the next line. 3 Q: Oh, so that in -- it should be 1999, 4 were you still at the Petrolia Detachment? 5 A: Yes. I think I was an Acting 6 Inspector at that time. I think that's why it's missing. 7 Q: So in 1999 you were an Acting 8 Inspector and then in October 2000 you were promoted to 9 Inspector for the -- and acted as Lambton County 10 Commander; is that correct? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And you retired from the OPP in May 13 of 2005? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And during the period October 2001 16 and September 2002, you were the Emergency Response 17 Coordinator for southwestern Ontario? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And can you just tell us briefly what 20 that entailed? 21 A: I was brought into West Region 22 Headquarters in London after 9/11 and I was asked to do a 23 threat risk assessment on all major infrastructure and 24 critical infrastructure in southwestern Ontario. 25 And I also assisted with the Emergency
161 Response Units assigned to -- to the District as -- as 2 oversight. 3 Q: Okay. And understand that you took a 4 sabbatical from 2002 to 2005? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And then you retired from the Ontario 7 Provincial Police in 2005? 8 A: Yes, sir, I haven't served with the 9 OPP since October of 2002. 10 Q: 2002. Now, when you joined the TRU 11 team initially you attended a selection committee -- a 12 selection school, in November 1979; is that correct? 13 A: Yes, sir, I think it was called 14 Orientation Basic Training. 15 Q: And the training that you undertook 16 in 1979, as I understand it to be selected in 1979 you 17 had to have a clean record, no Police Act violations or 18 any disciplinary measures? 19 A: Yes, sir, that's true. 20 Q: And you had to be recommended by your 21 Detachment commander? 22 A: Actually footnoted by your 23 supervisor, recommended by a Detachment commander and 24 further footnote from your District Commander. 25 Q: And what does it mean a footnote?
171 A: Your application had to basically be 2 sanctioned by your immediate supervisor that you were fit 3 for that assignment and comments to that effect and if 4 there was any question whatsoever in those footnotes, 5 basically it would go no further. 6 Q: And then as part of your -- the 7 selection process there was psychological -- 8 psychological train -- testing? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And physical testing? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And the selection course back in 1979 13 was -- part of it was held at Borden? 14 A: Yeah, I think the vast majority was 15 at Borden, yes. 16 Q: And the course was as I understand it 17 three (3) weeks long? 18 A: Yes, I believe the first two (2) 19 weeks was just the candidates alone and the third week 20 actually rolled into the semi-annual training for the 21 actual units. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: So the entire TRU team came together 24 in that third week and we worked with them in doing 25 scenario training.
181 Q: Okay. And as I understand it a lot 2 of the training was to put potential team members under 3 stress? 4 A: Yes, sir, everything was designed to 5 stress you either through sleep -- sleep deprivation; 6 like keep you awake, some physical stress, some scenarios 7 that stressed you. 8 Q: So that, as I understand it, you'd be 9 woken in the middle of the night, you would go on long 10 marches? 11 A: Yes, all of the -- all of those tests 12 were -- were to try to simulate an actual TRU team 13 occurrence. I think the vast majority are in the middle 14 of night. You're woken up normally in the early hours 15 and then the long marches and that simulated some of the 16 calls up in the north, Gogama; some of the calls where we 17 were in the woods for several days, twelve (12) hour 18 shifts. 19 So they were designed to try to put you 20 under the same environment that you would have to operate 21 in. 22 Q: And I think that it wasn't like a 23 military boot camp where people were yelled at and 24 screamed at by senior officers? 25 A: No, sir. The way it was run was if
191 you felt this was not for you you basically went to an 2 instructor and said I wish to leave. 3 Q: So there -- there was a process of 4 self-selection among the members? 5 A: It was all on self-selection and you 6 had to do it quietly. You just went off to the side and 7 say, I wish to speak to an instructor. 8 Q: And then the training, as I 9 understand it for the TRU team, increased in the mid to 10 late '80's. It went from a three (3) week orientation 11 and a five (5) week basic training, the training 12 increased; is that correct? 13 A: I think it went -- it was five (5) -- 14 the basic training went to five (5), yes, sir, but I 15 think it was the semi-annual training that went from that 16 week to three (3) weeks. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So that was the increase in training. 19 So six (6) weeks of maintenance training and five (5) 20 weeks initial training. 21 Q: Okay. And when you initially were 22 with the TRU team it was a part-time posting and as I 23 understand it you left because you broke your leg? 24 A: Yes, sir, I -- I fell off a fire 25 tower.
201 Q: And -- off a fire tower? 2 A: Yes, sir. I had a repelling device 3 fail and I fell four (4) storeys. 4 Q: And at the time it was thought that 5 you might not be able to run again? 6 A: Yeah, they said that I probably would 7 never run again. 8 Q: And the -- you overcame that and were 9 able to run again? 10 A: Yes, sir, during the two (2) years 11 that I was at Petrolia I was able to get myself back in 12 shape and reapply for TRU. 13 Q: And then you rejoined as full-time 14 member in, as you said, July 1988? 15 A: I also was studying during that time 16 period because I got promoted. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: I was studying during that two (2) 19 years of convalescing as well. 20 Q: And then I understand as well that 21 you were a private in the Canadian Forces Army reserves 22 from 1968 to 1972? 23 A: Yes, sir. That was in Kingston, yes. 24 Q: And then you were a Sergeant in the 25 reserves then from 1972 to 1984?
211 A: Yeah. I was actually off and on as I 2 went to university and then I took different leave of 3 absences, so over that period of time it was not -- it 4 was not steady. 5 Q: And -- but it was during that -- you 6 stopped the reserves in 1984? 7 A: Yeah. I become I full-time 8 instructor with TRU team and it just was too much. 9 Q: Okay. And I understand that from 10 1990 to 1998, you acted as a Missionary and lay Minister? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you acted as a Missionary in 13 parts of Africa and Central America? 14 A: Yes. I was a -- I was in Tanzania 15 and Kenya in Africa, Trinidad, Tobago and most of Central 16 America. Central America was at least five (5) visits. 17 Q: And part of what you did there was 18 helping in construction projects? 19 A: Construction. I -- I actually 20 brought clothing in. I found computers for ministry to 21 use computers. Actually, I worked with a man in Grand 22 Bend. 23 Q: And you got to know -- you had known 24 -- but during this period of time, you also got to know 25 Chief Joey Gilbert?
221 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Now, if you could look at Exhibit P- 3 1446, you had a -- 4 A: What Tab is this, sir? 5 Q: Tab 1, excuse me. 6 A: Tab -- 7 Q: The -- again, your CV. 8 A: Okay, sorry, sir. 9 Q: And there are a number of courses 10 listed on the first two (2) pages that -- where you acted 11 as an instructor? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And then on pages 2 and 3, there are 14 a number of courses listed that you completed as part of 15 your training with the Ontario Provincial Police. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Including the basic tactical recruit 18 course in November '79, an awareness of terrorism and 19 tactics course in April of 1980. You qualified as a Sub 20 Ice Diver with the OPP from 1980 and 1984 and you took a 21 number of courses relating to your work on the TRU team. 22 Is that correct? 23 A: Yes. Most of that was in 24 relationship to my TRU team duties. 25 Q: And then as well, you were Vice-
231 Chairman of the Trained Facilities Committee for the 2 Ontario Tactical Advisory Body in 1989? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And what was the Ontario Tactical 5 Advisory Body? 6 A: It came out of the Ontario review of 7 tactical teams. There was a recommendation that there be 8 a body of tactical team leaders, tactical trainers, that 9 would come together to share training methods and try to 10 come up with a provincial standard, so -- 11 Q: And -- and was this tactic -- members 12 from tactical teams from police forces other than the 13 OPP? 14 A: Oh, yes, sir. It was all of the big 15 twelve (12), like all the regional forces were there. 16 Metro was very prevalently there; Ottawa. 17 The only ones that was not on it was RCMP. 18 Q: And so that the major police forces 19 in -- in Ontario that had a tactical team took part in 20 this -- the advisory body, except the RCMP? 21 A: Yeah. There was -- there was the 22 advisory body itself and I think there was three (3) sub- 23 committees. Training was a sub-committee and I ended up 24 being the Chair of the training committee. 25 Q: And you acted, as you say, Chair from
241 1990 to 1992? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Now, in 1994, you completed the 4 emergency response unit training at Meaford, October 5 1994? It's on page 4. 6 A: I did not complete the ERT training. 7 I took Phase 6 of the ERT training which would be the 8 CMU -- 9 Q: The CMU portion -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- we'll come back to that in a 12 moment. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: Actually, that should -- that should 16 be CMU training. 17 Q: CMU training. And then you, as well, 18 attended CMU training at the Ontario Police College in 19 May of 1995 20 A: That was for two (2) days for the 21 maintenance, the actual maintenance training. Every six 22 (6) months I think they did maintenance training. 23 Q: And then again, and we'll come back 24 to this, May 1995 you attended a race relation seminar at 25 the Sarnia Police Department?
251 A: Yes. It was put on by Sarnia City. 2 Q: Now, in -- at -- the inside of your 3 book there's a -- clipped together a set of notes and 4 these are notes from the period 1993 through to 1997. 5 And we have two (2) groups of notes, Commissioner. 6 We have one (1) group of notes that are -- 7 are loose and the -- the package that Mr. Lacroix -- 8 Lacroix has in front of him; and those are your notes, 9 sir? 10 A: I'll just check in my notebook just 11 to make sure that they are, yes. Yes, appear to be, yes, 12 sir. 13 Q: And I would ask that this group be 14 marked the next exhibit, Commissioner. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1447, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1447: Handwritten notes of Wade 18 Lacroix, May 28 - June 08, 19 1993, June 25 - July 07, 20 1993, August 23 - August 30, 21 1993, November 05 - November 22 10, 1993, February 15 - 23 February 23, 1994, April 22 - 24 May 03, 1994, May 25 - June 25 22, 1994, October 03, October
261 10, 1994, October 26, 2 November 08 - November 16, 3 1994, May 04 - May 09, 1995, 4 September 12 - October 02, 5 1995, April 28, 1997. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And then at Tab 9 of your book, 9 there's another set of notes and it's Inquiry Document 10 2005525 and these notes cover February 1995 and then the 11 period -- and August and in September 4th, 5th and 6th, 12 1995 down to September the 11th, 1995. 13 And I would ask that -- those are your 14 notes as well, Mr. Lacroix? 15 A: I just have to check this one. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, it appears to be, yes. 20 Q: And I would ask that that group of 21 notes be marked the next exhibit, Commissioner, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1448, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1448: Document Number 2005525.. 25 Wade Lacroix's Handwritten
271 notes dated February 24 - 27, 2 March 01, August 11 - 3 September 11, 1995, February 4 24 - September 11, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: For the benefit of My Friends, the -- 8 Exhibit 1447 contains the notes that we distributed 9 electronically on -- at Thursday, I think. 10 And then there should have been another 11 note distributed electronically back on the weekend and 12 that is the note for August 23rd, 1993 and they're all 13 part of Exhibit P-1447. 14 Now, the -- can you just briefly tell us 15 your personal and professional experiences with the First 16 Nations communities, Mr. Lacroix. 17 A: In my twenty-eight (28) years with 18 the OPP, I served in Detachments with First Nations 19 community --communities within the Detachment boundaries 20 for every Detachment save and except Kingston. 21 So I was there about three (3) or so -- 22 twenty-five (25) years of my service was always a First 23 Nation community in my Detachment area. 24 Q: And for example, in -- when you were 25 in Cayuga from 1990 -- in 19 -- in the mid-'70's, you
281 were near the Six Nations? 2 A: Yes. I ended up living in Caladonia 3 and it was OPP policy -- normal OPP policy that they try 4 to let you work the zone where you live, so they would 5 allow you to go home for lunch or supper on shift. 6 So because I lived in Caladonia, I was 7 alone 3. Zone 3 ran from Caledonia to Hagersville. 8 Actually, it ran three (3) boundaries of the Six Nations 9 reserve. 10 So I actually worked that zone 11 predominantly and at that time, it was policed by an OPP 12 Detachment out of Brantford, except for the bottom two 13 (2) concessions. The two (2) concessions at the bottom 14 of Six Nations were in ke -- OPP area and the New Credit 15 Reserve was in OPP area. 16 So I policed in Zone 3, two-tenths 17 (2/10's) of Six Nations for the two and a half (2 1/2) 18 years I was there. 19 Q: And when you were there, I understand 20 that you were involved in community activities including 21 coaching football? 22 A: Yes, sir. I had just left 23 university; I played football from university. And I was 24 on patrol; I noticed that football teams seemed to have 25 only one (1) coach at Caladonia.
291 So I volunteered my services and I took 2 over the both offensive and defensive line and the other 3 coach took the backs and so I coached them for two (2) 4 years and we ended up winning CWOSSA, so. 5 Q: And what's CWOSSA? 6 A: All southwestern Ontario high school 7 teams. 8 Q: And I understand as well, that many - 9 - most of your members -- team members were from the Six 10 Nations? 11 A: It seemed that most of my linemen 12 were from the Six Nations reserve. I had a lot of 13 Bomberries and I remember them -- there was a lot of big 14 boys, so yes, I had a lot of First Nations youth work -- 15 working with me on the line. 16 Q: And as well, I understand that during 17 this period of time, you worked with Ron Fox? 18 A: Yes. That when I -- when I first Ron 19 Fox. Ron Fox was the -- they used to have a crime 20 officer on the shift but he was in uniform. I think he 21 was called GLE, General Law Enforcement. 22 That officer was Ron Fox and -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: -- that's the first time I met him, 25 was '75. We were on the same shift together.
301 Q: And I understand that you learned a 2 lot about First Nations policing from Ron Fox; is that 3 correct? 4 A: Yeah. Ron kind of took me under his 5 wing. Obviously coming out of police college -- police 6 college is -- is actually very para-military. It's all 7 -- back in those days, it was about drill and we spit- 8 shone our boots and our leather and all this. 9 We had the old peaked caps and everything 10 was just shiny; you know, big Sam Brown. So it was Ron 11 that told me when we were working in the First Nations 12 community that -- that this didn't go over very big; 13 suggested that I leave the hat in the car, take off the 14 tie, take off the cross strap, roll up the sleeves and 15 approach in a little bit of a different manner. 16 And so that was my first education that 17 the First Nation communities didn't really like the look 18 of the OPP dress uniform. And he was -- it was just good 19 guidance, just to come in with a much more subdued 20 approach; not to a be shiny new penny, so to speak, and 21 not to be, like, coming in there all rigid. 22 Q: So, it might -- fair to say less -- 23 well, less formal, more relaxed? 24 A: Less formal and, you know, he even 25 said to me, we may have to, you know, sit down. If they
311 ask to sit down and talk, take your time, sit down. 2 So that was my first introduction to a 3 First Nations community -- 4 Q: And -- 5 A: -- was through Ron Fox. 6 Q: And the -- I understand that while 7 you were posted in Kingston for part of the time, your 8 partner was also a First Nation officer? 9 A: Yeah. A First Nations female officer 10 from Akwesasne. 11 Q: And then while you were in London, as 12 well, you worked closed with constables from the -- from 13 Oneida and at Muncey? 14 A: It was the same situation. I had 15 lived in Lambeth, so Lambeth being southwest London. My 16 zone was Oneida. Oneida was in London OPP area. Muncey 17 was Dutton OPP area. 18 At that time, as you said, we were in the 19 first, like '80 to '83, we were on regular shift. My 20 partner for that zone was a First Nations officer and so 21 we rode together on most night shifts; became quite 22 close. 23 Actually, he helped me tear out my 24 bathroom and cut down a willow tree. But, yes, I worked 25 Oneida pretty steady for about the first three (3) years.
321 Q: And as well did you do some work at 2 Muncey? 3 A: We would be called to do backup, but 4 it was actually another Detachment area and that was 5 still 2 District -- yeah, still -- still the same 6 district but another Detachment area. But we would be 7 called occasionally, but mostly Oneida. 8 Q: And I understand as well, that while 9 you were the Detachment Commander in Petrolia you 10 interacted with the First Nations at the Walpole Island, 11 Sarnia, Kettle and Stony Point? 12 A: Yes. Most of the time would be 13 backup situations because at that time Sombra was 14 responsible for Walpole, Sarnia City was responsible for 15 Sarnia Reserve, Forest was responsible for Kettle. 16 But I mean, we were really all adjoining 17 Detachments so quite often you would -- would back each 18 other up or if there was not a First Nations constable on 19 you could be dispatched. Like, if he wasn't working -- 20 Q: It wasn't working. 21 A: -- you could be dispatched to one (1) 22 of those areas. 23 Q: And I understand as well that you 24 became close friends with Chief Joey Gilbert from Walpole 25 Island?
331 A: Yes, he also was a lay minister so we 2 had a common interest and we became close, yes. 3 Q: And while you were the Detachment 4 commander did you become aware of any issues with respect 5 to resources for the First Nations Police Services? 6 A: Yeah. During that period '93 you're 7 referring to? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: '93/'94 became abundantly clear that 10 both Walpole and Kettle and Stony Point did not have 11 enough resources to actually do what you would call 12 standalone. They did not have enough resources to run a 13 twenty-four (24) hour, three sixty-five (365) service. 14 So we ended up signing protocols of how we could assist 15 those First Nation Police officers to provide twenty-four 16 (24) hour service. 17 I think at Walpole I actually seconded an 18 officer there to help them and then we -- the protocol 19 outlined if they were not on duty, you know, what calls 20 we would cover and what calls we wouldn't. 21 Like some of them, they would just SIR, 22 like Selective Initial Response. Some of the lower, you 23 know, occurrences, mischief under a certain dollar value 24 we would not respond but ones that required a response we 25 would take it for them or back them up.
341 Q: And I understand that particularly 2 with Walpole Island you worked closely with Chief Gilbert 3 to try to obtain more officers and resources? 4 A: Yes, there was, at that time the 5 Federal Government which also -- there was a tripartite 6 agreement. But I understand First Nation Policing in 7 Ontario, there is a -- there is a financial factor 8 between the Federal Government, Provincial Government, 9 and of course First Nations community and there was an 10 opportunity at that time to go standalone. There was 11 some funding to -- and that's when Anishnaabeg Police 12 Service and that were -- became their own police 13 services. 14 So there was a lot of interest from 15 Walpole and Kettle Point to find out about that funding 16 and I think even that's where the protocols came in. The 17 protocols helped to establish the need for a standalone 18 service, a fully First Nations service. 19 Q: Okay. And I understand as well that 20 you would attend from time to time the Walpole Island 21 Policing Committee meetings? 22 A: Yes, the -- the band chief set up 23 almost a counterpart to a police service board for the 24 rest of the province. I believe he called it the Civil 25 Authority. It was like the Police Civil Authority.
351 So there was -- civil authority means like 2 on a monthly basis or very similar to a police services 3 board. And he had a councillor assigned, Shirley 4 Toushkineg (phonetic) who answered back to Band Chief and 5 Council; very much like a police service board does. 6 So I attended both the Civil Authority 7 meetings and I attended Band Chief and Council on 8 occasion when -- when it was a -- a policing issue was to 9 be discussed. 10 Q: And I understand as well that in 11 November 1994, and it's reflected at page 22 of your 12 notes Exhibit P-1447, but I'm not going to ask you to go 13 there, you attended a First Nations policing conference 14 in London, Ontario? 15 A: Yes, that's true. 16 Q: And can you just tell us briefly what 17 that was about? 18 A: If I -- if I recall correctly that 19 was put on by the -- the Director of police -- First 20 Nations Policing at the time which was Gwen Boniface. I 21 believe she was Superintendent at the time. And it was 22 around those issues that we were just talking about. It 23 was about the -- the funding structure. 24 I -- I can't remember the term of the -- 25 like it's a tri-party agreement between the Federal,
361 Provincial First Nations. So there was discussion about 2 what was going on to do with that; how there was 3 opportunity and how a First Nation community would go 4 about accessing those funds. 5 And it was just -- it was just around all 6 those changes that were taking place to First Nation 7 policing. And -- and that also, you know, how the First 8 Nation community wanted to be more autonomous and that we 9 should support that in every way. 10 So it -- it was more around that 11 standalone agreement piece that was coming about. 12 Q: Okay. And as well the race relations 13 courser that you attended in Sarnia in 1994 I believe, 14 what was -- what did that cover. 15 A: Oh it just covered generally, you 16 know, race relations and what the causes of racism were 17 and you know, fear of the unknown. And it basically 18 spoke about lack of education and -- 19 Q: And this was a course, as I 20 understand, that you attended on your own? You decided 21 to go? 22 A: Yes. It was a Sarnia City for -- 23 police department course. I just heard about it and 24 asked if I could attend and I was allowed to attend it. 25 Q: Now when you were the Detachment
371 Commander in Petrolia starting in February 1993 -- 2 A: Yes? 3 Q: -- what was your area of 4 responsibility from the period -- let's just do it -- the 5 period February 1993 to September 1995, as Detachment 6 Commander? 7 A: When I first -- when I was -- when I 8 first took the -- the job, it was a posting, I saw the 9 ad, I felt it was time to leave TRU for the family. It 10 was only Petrolia proper -- 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: -- so it would have been south lam -- 13 south of the 302 but not the strip running along the St. 14 Clair River. There was a strip of a few concessions 15 there that was actually Sombra Detachment, okay? 16 I was only in Forest -- not Forest. I was 17 only in Petrolia, I believe, a few months when it became 18 evident the Detachment Commander in Sombra was going to 19 retire. So Superintendent Randall asked me to take over 20 Sombra as well as Petrolia in an amalgamated Detachment 21 to run it as Sombra, a satellite of Petrolia. 22 So within months I actually was running 23 two (2) Detachments; basically the whole south end of 24 Lambton County. 25 Q: So that the Petrolia Detachment
381 covered a portion of South Lambton County and then Sombra 2 when it was added -- another larger portion. 3 A: It was the other way around. We had 4 -- Petrolia was two-thirds (2/3's), Sombra was a third. 5 Q: Okay. And during the period of time 6 when you were -- became Detachment Commander at Petrolia, 7 did part of your duties include patrolling Petrolia 8 itself? 9 A: No. The Town of Petrolia at that 10 time was a standalone force, Petrolia Police Service, 11 when I arrived there in '93 right up until about '95. 12 Q: And as the Detachment Commander did 13 at some point in time you become, in this period '93 to 14 '95, the -- responsible for the Forest Detachment? 15 A: Yeah. Shortly after taking over 16 Sombra the Detachment Commander in Forest decided to 17 retire and somebody thought that maybe I should 18 amalgamate that too. 19 So for about six (6) months I ended up 20 being responsible for Sombra, Petrolia, Forest and Grand 21 Bend Detachments. So I had the entirety of Lambton 22 County. 23 Q: And as Detachment Commander, what was 24 your role with respect, if any, with respect to local 25 politicians be they Municipal, Provincial or Federal.
391 A: I was told that my role was that I 2 was to know all of the mayors and councillors in the 3 area; that to be -- be able to pick up the phone and talk 4 to them. When I first arrived, Superintendent Randall 5 told me one of the first things I needed to do was to go 6 out and know my community which included the political -- 7 the municipal political entities. 8 So I think actually in -- I think for the 9 first fews months in there, I can't remember exactly when 10 it was, I went and visited every mayor in the county and 11 talked to them about policing service delivery. I called 12 it, in the County; if they were satisfied; explained to 13 them we were going to amalgamated a Detachment. 14 I think they were called in Petrolia an 15 admin centre. And I let them know that their Detachments 16 were staying, but they were called satellites. They 17 shouldn't see any difference. It was just -- the 18 policemen would be there. It was just that the 19 administration would flow to Petrolia. 20 So it was my job to go out and to know 21 them, be able to speak to them about policing issues. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: This is all prior to contract 24 policing where they didn't -- they weren't paying 25 directly, so therefore didn't have a Police Service
401 Board. So what -- they were paying indirectly for 2 policing and they had a -- they had a, I believe, a need 3 to know, so to speak, of what we were doing. 4 Q: And what about your relationship with 5 the First Nations committee -- the communities, as 6 Detachment Commander? 7 A: Same thing. I visited -- when I took 8 over Forest, I remember visiting with Chief Tom Bressette 9 and Chief Miles Bressette to sign a protocol, similar to 10 the one in Walpole Island, about basically we would leave 11 the First Nations officers to police the community as 12 much as possible, like certainly, you know, by day and 13 night. 14 However, if they needed backup we would 15 provide backup. If they needed expert exam, like ident 16 services, et cetera, that would be provided. 17 If -- if their schedule did not allow an 18 officer to be on -- and that happened a lot. I think 19 there was like five (5) officers trying to do a twenty- 20 four (24) hour shift, we would provide a Forest car. But 21 again it would -- I think the -- the First Nation 22 community didn't necessarily want it patrolling. They 23 just wanted to know that it would come if there was a 24 call. 25 So that was the essence of the protocol;
411 like, you know, how it would work; how we would back each 2 other up. 3 Q: Okay. And if I could ask with 4 respect to Marcel Beaubien, as I understand it in the 5 period May 1993, 1994 and up to June of 1995, during that 6 period of time, Mr. Beaubien was the mayor of Petrolia? 7 A: Yes, he was. '93, '94, yeah -- yes. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: He became an MP, I think, somewhere 10 around '95. 11 Q: He became an MP. He was elected in 12 June of 1995. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: And the -- how long had you lived in 15 Petrolia when you became Detachment Commander? 16 A: Well, actually I moved to Petrolia, 17 if you go back then I was posted there as a Corporal. I 18 bought an old Victorian in Petrolia in 1986 and I never 19 left that house until two (2) years ago. 20 So, I moved there in '86. Marcel, at that 21 time, I believe, I was -- the house -- I lived there the 22 whole time in Petrolia. When I arrived, the town was 23 policed by Petrolia Police Force. I don't know if Marcel 24 was a counsellor or a Mayor, but he was my -- my 25 insurance agent, because he was the insurance agent on
421 the house when I bought it. So he continued to be a -- 2 the insurance agent. 3 So I knew of Marcel as local politician 4 from '86. I lived in the town the whole time. 5 When I went back to TRU team, I decided to 6 leave the family in a small town Ontario because I'll 7 come back -- two (2) issues here about Marcel is, and the 8 Town of Petrolia had a full French immersion school. My 9 wife is French-Canadian, so we wanted to rage -- raise 10 the children fully French immersion, so I decided to 11 commute. 12 So, from '88 to '93 when I was a TRU team 13 leader, I commuted to London. The family stayed in 14 Petrolia. So I came home to Petrolia every night. 15 During some of that time period, I know 16 that Marcel was on the board of the French school. I 17 think he even judged my daughter in a French contest. 18 So, I mean, I knew him as the Mayor. 19 When I -- going back, you said -- so '90 - 20 - then '93, though, when I posted back as a Staff 21 Sergeant, if I'm not mistaken, Marcel Beaubien had sold 22 his insurance business; was know longer run -- didn't 23 have the insurance business. 24 I think I switched to CIAG, actually, and 25 I never really worked with him as the Mayor -- like, the
431 town started to do the contract around '93/'94, but it 2 didn't take place during his tenure as the Mayor. So, I 3 never worked with him directly as Police Service Board or 4 directly as a Mayor of an area that I was responsible 5 for. 6 Q: Okay. And the -- at some point in 7 1995, or after, the OPP became the contract police force 8 for Petrolia? 9 A: Yes. When was the date, I'm sorry? 10 Q: Well, I'm just trying -- 11 A: It was -- it was -- it was in around 12 '95 we -- it was finally -- I mean I handed it off to 13 First Nations Contract Policing Branch. There was 14 negotiations through '94 and eventually yes, the OPP took 15 the town of Petrolia over under contract and those 16 officers were absorbed and worked out of Petrolia 17 Detachment. 18 Q: And -- but during the period of time 19 '93 to '95 when you were Detachment Commander it's your 20 recollection today that you -- you did not work with Mr. 21 Beaubien as -- on policing issues? 22 A: No. I mean he -- he might have made 23 the first contact with me which would; the local 24 Detachment Commander. I believe he called the Detachment 25 asking how to go about making an official request for
441 costing from the OPP? 2 Q: And how would you describe your 3 relationship with Mr. Beaubien over the period of time? 4 A: I would describe it as, you know, 5 friendly, congenial. The town of Petrolia, I think is 6 about the same size as Forest. There's one (1) Tim 7 Horton's. If I remember correctly the mayor and 8 councillors used to always seem to be sitting in there 9 about ten o'clock so I'd happen to be going through to 10 get my coffee, I'd see them sitting there; you know, you 11 walk over, talk to them, how's it going? 12 And then later it was the same thing. I'd 13 have lunch at a burger restaurant right next to the 14 Detachment and Marcel's constituent office was across the 15 street so. 16 Q: That's after he became the MPP? 17 A: Yeah. So I mean it was just more of 18 a, Morning, Mr. -- like I knew him, knew of him, had 19 known him since around '86. Obviously I'd run into him 20 at -- I was called a councillor quite a time -- a bit 21 too. 22 They had quite a strong council government 23 here in Lambton, so once a year they'd ask police to come 24 up and speak about issues. I'd run into him at Council. 25 I'd run into him at a Rotary Club kind of -- I didn't
451 belong to Rotary, but at community meetings. I'd run 2 into him at the Victoria Playhouse. 3 So I -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- just an acquaintance in the sense 6 of seeing him all around town. 7 Q: Now, I understand as well that as -- 8 when you were in the Reserve, Canadian Forces Reserve, 9 that you spent some time at Camp Ipperwash? 10 A: Yes, I joined the Reserves -- I moved 11 to Nova Scotia like in '66. I joined the Reserves '68. 12 I made Corporal and I -- I saw a posting to a place 13 called Ipperwash in a cadet base, and so in 1970 I took a 14 job as a Cadet Leader/Instructor -- 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: -- teaching young cadets at Ipperwash 17 Army Camp. Actually, when I got on the train it was 18 farthest west I had ever been at that point and actually 19 I -- I don't even know how I got -- got there. I 20 remember landing in London and wound up at this beautiful 21 little base on Lake Huron. 22 So I spent the summer of 1970 teaching 23 young cadets. 24 Q: And when you were at -- and how long 25 -- was 1970 the only time you spent at Camp Ipperwash?
461 A: Yes, I -- I -- after that I came -- I 2 made a comment I came back. I loved it so much I came 3 back and camped back up in the Ipperwash Provincial 4 Park/Pinery Park, like years after. But I was only 5 posted there one (1) summer with the Army Reserves. 6 Q: And when you were posted there in 7 1970 you were living -- you'd grown up in Nova Scotia? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you were living in Nova Scotia 10 when you -- 11 A: We moved in '86 so I think I'd only 12 been in Ontario that -- a few years when I came down 13 here. 14 Q: You -- you moved here in '75? 15 A: No, no, '86. Oh, I'm sorry, you 16 meant -- 17 Q: I was talking about back -- I'm 18 sorry, I've confused you, but in 1970 you were living in 19 Nova Scotia when you came to the Army -- Army Base? 20 A: I'm sorry, '86. '86 we moved. No, 21 sorry, that's wrong too. 22 Q: Let me just take you one (1) step 23 back. I was asking you about a period of time when you a 24 cadet -- 25 A: Okay.
471 Q: -- training officer and you -- 2 A: All right. So sorry. So I would 3 have moved in '66, I just jumped twenty (20) years. 4 Q: To Ontario? 5 A: I moved to Nova Scotia in '66, went 6 to Camp Ipperwash in '70. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Sorry. 9 Q: And then moved back to Ontario after 10 that? 11 A: I -- no, actually -- yeah, I lived in 12 Ontario at that time. I went back to Dalhousie to go to 13 university, then moved back to Ontario, yes. Sorry. 14 Q: And you were back in Ontario we know 15 by 1975? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, in 1993 can you just briefly 18 tell us what role you played if any with respect to the 19 occupation of the Army Camp in May of 1993? 20 A: The role that I played was, I was 21 assigned to the Incident Commander, John Carson, 22 Inspector John Carson as his logistics officer to assist 23 preparing a operational plan, a contingency plan, for -- 24 for the occupation but specifically my piece was on the 25 logistics; on, you know, the number of cars, the number
481 of forms, the you know, what ever, you know, bedding, you 2 know, accommodation. 3 Q: And on Exhibit P-1447 the loose group 4 of notes, the -- 5 A: Yes? 6 Q: -- the first entry is on May 31st, 7 1993 where the note indicates you travelled to Chatham to 8 meet with Inspector Carson, Incident Commander of Camp 9 Ipperwash occupation by Stoney Point Band. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there are a number of notes and 12 I'm not going to take them through -- you through them 13 but you worked with Bill Dennis? 14 A: Yes. Bill Dennis was traf -- 15 assigned to the Traffic Unit at the time as Sergeant and 16 he was assigned to be as my number 2. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: As my assistant to prepare the 19 logistics plan. 20 Q: And as part of the work that you did 21 was working on housing for people if necessary? 22 A: Yeah. I believe I was given a number 23 that if we need up to, I believe the number was 24 accommodation for up to one hundred (100), try to locate 25 accommodation for that number.
491 Q: And you did in Centralia I believe? 2 A: Yes. I -- I mean, we went obviously 3 in -- look in the Grand Bend area but the concern was 4 would we actually get accommodation in June, July and 5 August in Grand Bend. The answer very quickly was, no. 6 So somebody put us onto an abandoned air 7 base not that far away and went to Centralia and it 8 looked perfect. It had multiple accommodations 9 available, so... 10 Q: And you worked with Mr. Dennis on the 11 identification of appropriate checkpoint locations? 12 A: Yes. Yeah we did a wheeled recy or 13 reconnaissance of the whole area and identified possible 14 checkpoints if needed. 15 Q: And as I understand it, the idea of 16 the checkpoints was to isolate the Park and reroute 17 traffic from Highway 21 -- not the Park but the Army 18 Camp? 19 A: That's -- that's true. Yes, it was 20 to contain it and to reroute traffic. 21 Q: And I understand as well that as part 22 of your work you met with military personnel? 23 A: Yes, I did, a couple of occasions. 24 Q: And that related principally to the 25 water treatment plant; is that correct?
501 A: My recollection was that the Military 2 had had a concern about possible sabotage or 3 contamination of the water filtration for the Base which 4 at that time -- up until that time I had no idea that it 5 was actually situated in the Provincial Park; that the 6 pumphouse and filtration were in the Park. 7 So they took me down there to look at it, 8 to do basically a threat assessment. While I was there I 9 noted quite a supply of chlorine gas, an over abundance 10 of chorine gas. 11 And I made a recommendation that they get 12 rid of about five (5) or six (6) bottles and get down to 13 like just on time delivery. I remember then talking to 14 them about -- I was aware from my short stint in the 15 Cadet Corp but also I'd done a lot of courses there with 16 TRU team, I knew there was a large ammunition dump 17 onsite. 18 And so over lunch I had a discussion with 19 -- when they -- it became apparent that they were going 20 to de -- de-escalate, I had a discussion with them, I 21 would hope that they were taking all of the hardware that 22 I figured would be in our way. 23 Q: Now I think that discussion took 24 place a little later in 199 -- we're now in '93 with 25 respect to --
511 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- the munitions dump. I think that 3 took place -- 4 A: May I -- okay. Like I said there 5 were more than one (1) meeting with the Military. 6 Q: And at Tab 73 of the book, the second 7 book, the one that's on your left, there's a copy of 8 Inquiry Document 2002363. 9 And I understand this is the logistic plan 10 that you prepared? 11 A: Yeah. This -- this would have been 12 the -- my part of the plan that I was specifically 13 responsible for with Bill Dennis. We would have prepared 14 this as a tab of the plan -- as a component. 15 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 16 the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1449, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1449: Document Number 2002363, 20 "Occupation of Ipperwash Army 21 Camp: Logistics Plan". 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And I've put in front of you -- it's 25 in -- you can push that one to the side. And you'll find
521 on the inside front cover of the book in front of you, 2 copies of P -- Exhibit P-400, Inquiry Document 2002678, 3 and copy -- just on the inside cover, sir. 4 A: Oh, sorry. 5 Q: And a copy of P-555, Inquiry Document 6 2002951. And Inquiry document P-400 is the operational 7 plan for Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash and it's dated 8 May 28th, 1993. 9 Do you recall seeing this document before, 10 sir? 11 A: This is my recollection of what the 12 occupation of Air Force Base Ipperwash contingency plan 13 looked like. 14 Q: And you're on -- this copy, which is 15 the May 28th copy, on page 6, you will see you're 16 identified as the logistics officer, and that was your 17 role? 18 A: May 28th -- tso hat's the 5 -- 555? 19 Q: No. That's in P-400. 20 A: Okay, sorry. May 28th. 21 Q: Page 6. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes.
531 Q: And then in P-555, this is the copy 2 of the plan dated June 2nd, 1993. Do you recall seeing 3 this document at the time, in June of 1993? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: No, not -- not specifically. 8 Q: That's fair enough. I note that 9 you're identified on page 5, Exhibit P-555, again as the 10 logistics officer. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And it notes: 13 "Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant Lacroix 14 will prepare a logistics plan that will 15 be included as an appendix." 16 And your plan is the document that we've 17 just marked as Exhibit P-449? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: 1449, excuse me. 20 A: Yes, it -- 21 Q: Now, John Carson testified that you 22 were the prime -- primary individual assisting him with 23 respect to the occupation in the summer of 1993, and is 24 that your recollection, sir? 25 A: Yes, that's my recollection.
541 Q: And the -- in August of 1993, there 2 was a incident with respect to a helicopter; do you 3 recall that, sir? 4 A: Yes, there was a shot fired at a 5 military helicopter. 6 Q: And can you tell us what role, if 7 any, you played with respect to the helicopter incident? 8 A: My recollection is, I was called out 9 to be the logistics officer at Forest Detachment Command 10 Post and that's where I stayed. 11 Q: And if you would just take a look at 12 Exhibit P-1447, the notes, and if you go to page 6(a), it 13 should be marked 6(a) as the note for August 23rd, 1993. 14 A: That's where, sir? 15 Q: Page 6(a) of that -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Okay, 6(a), sorry. 19 Q: And at the bottom of the page, 20 there's a reference to August 24th: 21 "Arrive Forest Detachment, briefed by 22 Inspector Carson." 23 A: Carson. 24 "Remained at Forest Detachment for the 25 duration of the occurrence."
551 Did you want the last part read? 2 Q: Sure. 3 A: "No mishaps other than threats to 4 officers at Checkpoint Number... 5 Is that -- can't make it out over the 6 writing. Seven (7), is it? 7 "...by Manning" 8 Q: And then you concluded in the evening 9 of -- at 22:00 -- 23:00, you were off-duty? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And so you spent the entire time at 12 the Forest Detachment? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then -- and played no other role 15 with respect to the helicopter incident? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Then I note if you could go to page 8 18 of Exhibit P-1447 there are your notes for the 10th of 19 November, 1993. 20 A: Page again, sir, I'm sorry? 21 Q: Page 8. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: There's -- I've got -- there's a
561 number of numbers on these but I there should be a -- in 2 the upper right-hand corner a handwritten number. And -- 3 A: Right. Does this travel to Bosanquet 4 or -- 5 Q: Yes, and the entry on November 8th is 6 -- I mean November 10th, 1993, do you see that, sir? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And it appears to be a meeting with 9 Mayor Thomas. Can you tell us about that? Do you have 10 any recollection of that meeting? 11 A: Yes, the -- the only recollection I 12 have of course is the mayor was concerned about the 13 occupation. I believe he was also concerned over West 14 Ipperwash Beach. 15 Q: And West Ipperwash Beach was -- 16 A: There -- 17 Q: -- related to what? 18 A: There was a -- a land claim issue 19 over the ownership of the West Ipperwash Beach. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: That -- my recollection was it was in 22 the courts and there had been some difficulties going on 23 between the cottagers and some of the First Nations 24 people that were, you know, down trying to enjoy the 25 beach; you know, going for swims, et cetera. There was -
571 - there were some hostilities over -- over this land 2 claim. 3 Q: So that it's fair to say there was 4 friction between -- 5 A: There was friction, yes. 6 Q: And was that an issue that was raised 7 by Mayor Thomas at this meeting? 8 A: Yes, I remember that there was 9 concerns raised by I think it was called the West 10 Ipperwash Beach Ratepayers Association, and they had been 11 raising concerns to the mayor so of course the mayor 12 wanted to see the police view on what -- you know, what, 13 if anything we could do about it. 14 My recollection is going to him, 15 explaining to them that it was really a civil matter, and 16 it was already in the courts. You know, I think we tried 17 to explain it's no different than an marital breakup; 18 like it's actually -- you know, between husband and wife 19 is actually civil. 20 And ideally it's better not to involve the 21 police even though we know there were issues and we -- so 22 at the same time try to explain to him it wasn't a 23 policing matter. 24 However, we knew the friction was creating 25 a policing matter and we were concerned about that. We
581 let them know that we were concerned about that. 2 But then there was discussion also about - 3 - because of the land claim I remember correctly we had 4 sought legal opinion and because of the colour of right 5 issue it wasn't as simple as just laying a trespass, you 6 know Trespass to Property Act. 7 So I remember trying to explain -- we 8 tried to explain to the mayor that it was a complex 9 issue. It wasn't as simple as just going in there and, 10 excuse the word, but lay paper. It wasn't just go charge 11 everybody. Not that I'm saying he wanted that, but we 12 were just telling him it was a very difficult policing 13 affair. 14 Q: And I note in your note at -- for 15 November the 10th you met with the mayor then with Mr. 16 Williams who I think was the Chief Administrative 17 Officer? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then at least the counc -- a 20 councillor and a clerk? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And then the afternoon it appears 23 that you visited in Fort Franks -- Port Franks? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was that a local politician as
591 well or...? 2 A: No, he was a retired police officer. 3 That visit -- an ESO was an extended service office. I 4 was trying to get a community-based policing committee 5 going in Port Franks; you know, trying to get people 6 involved so they would communicate to us directly instead 7 of indirectly and a storefront at Port Franks to give a 8 police presence in that community to kind of calm fears. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: So I was working with a recently 11 retired police officer, Mike Beacock. 12 Q: And then at 14:30 in the afternoon 13 you met with the mayor of Forest? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you recall what that was 16 about? 17 A: I believe it was all around the same 18 thing. It was about friction in the -- in the general 19 Ipperwash community, you know, caused by this land claim 20 and just letting the mayors know that we were taking it 21 serious, however we were limited in some areas. I mean, 22 certainly not the Criminal Code, but we were limited in 23 some of the normal areas we would -- could use. 24 Q: And if you could please turn to page 25 9 of your notes. There's a note, Exhibit P-1447 for
601 February 18th, 1994. 2 And just before I go on, I should have 3 asked you this question before. Generally speaking, what 4 was your practice with respect to your note taking back 5 in 1993, 1994 and 1995? 6 A: Well, to be very truthful, I was not 7 an investigator. I was in an administrative role, 8 administrative rank. So, yeah, if you look at these 9 notes I'm filling them out, you know, within twenty (20) 10 minutes, within a half an hour. 11 As the Detachment Commander, I wasn't 12 going around pulling out my notebook and writing down the 13 exact time and date when I was talking to some Mayor in 14 his presence. 15 I was out and about in the community. I 16 was 8:00 to 4:00, Monday to Friday, weekends off, not an 17 investigator and not in an enforcement role at all. 18 I was the community guy. I mean, I was 19 the -- the Chief of Police, so my -- my practice with 20 notes was -- was, you know, half way through the day or 21 the end of the day, go back and go, you know, I left 22 about here, I got home here. 23 Also, a lot of these meetings are -- are 24 correct, though, because a lot of meetings -- when a 25 Mayor says he wants to meet you at 10:00, I'm sure that
611 meeting took place at 10:00. 2 I mean, a lot of times, I was going in 3 appointments; an appointment with this person, then I'd 4 have lunch, then an appointment with the next Mayor. 5 So it would be a ten o'clock appointment 6 and a one o'clock appointment and then, of course, lunch 7 was somewhere in between. 8 And I worked an 8:00 to 4:00 day, so -- 9 Q: So -- but the notes, when you did 10 make notes, you would make them shortly after the -- 11 A: Oh, yeah, they'd be at the end of 12 each day. 13 Q: And with respect to your notes as 14 Detachment Commander, is it fair to say that you -- or 15 did you make notes of all your telephone calls with 16 people, with local politicians, with people from the 17 First Nation? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And -- 20 A: It's not my habit to write down -- 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: No, it was not my habit at that time 23 to write down -- I would have -- I probably had a meeting 24 with a politician at least once a week, and I don't know 25 how many times I'd speak with a politician, but I didn't
621 write down every conversation with a politician. 2 Q: And the note at February 18th, 1994 3 involves a visit by you to Forest, and you met Sergeant 4 McDonald, the First Nations liaison officer; is that 5 correct, for Kettle... 6 A: That's 18th February...? 7 Q: 1994. 8 A: Yeah. It looks like Sergeant 9 McDonald, at that time. It had changed a few times in 10 there, but Sergeant McDonald looked like he was the First 11 Nations liaison for Kettle Point reserve at that time. 12 That's not a full-time job; the sergeants 13 would take that on, on a rotational basis. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Like one would maybe be responsible 16 for the breathalyser machine or one would be responsible 17 for traffic enforcement. 18 Like, you would have a shift -- really 19 only a shift sergeant per -- per platoon, but he'd have 20 additional duties. 21 So it looks like Sergeant McDonald was the 22 liaison officer at that time. 23 Q: Okay. And then on the next page, 24 page 10, it appears that that morning at ten o'clock you 25 had a meeting with Chief Tom Bressette and Police chief
631 Miles Bressette -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- at the Band office. 4 A: This is about what I was referring to 5 earlier. It says: 6 "Reference mutual aide." 7 So that's where we could back one another 8 up. 9 "Callout of First Nations officers." 10 That's when if, you know, they were -- 11 they had to get -- they didn't have enough officers to be 12 on twenty-four (24) hours a day so they would have us go 13 -- give us a number of somebody that was maybe off and in 14 the community, so that when -- but the officers were 15 complaining because we were calling them out too often. 16 That's why we had to have that threshold 17 about SIR, like selective initial response, like which is 18 an OPP policy. 19 So we wouldn't be calling them out from 20 the house on something minor. So that was talking about 21 the call out of the First Nations officers, that 22 basically the Chief -- both Chiefs were concerned that we 23 might burn them out. 24 We agreed we would only call them out to 25 serious occurrences, but really serious occurrences we
641 wanted them out -- to come out because they had a calming 2 effect in the community, plus they knew where to find 3 people, and ultimately the case would go back to them. 4 And then the assistance was obviously what 5 we call 10-78 or officer needs assistance, and that we 6 agreed that either side, if there was an urgent need, we 7 would both, you know, come on and go on -- come on and 8 come off the First Nations community to back one another 9 up, in -- in an officer needs assistance role. 10 So that's what that discussion would be 11 about. 12 Q: And I understand, as well, that your 13 role with Chief Bressette and Chief of Police, Myles 14 Bressette, was not as extensive as the role played by 15 then Sergeant Charlie Bouwman and Inspector John Carson, 16 is that -- 17 A: Yeah, that's true. I actually really 18 stayed in Petrolia, as I said. I picked up the Forest 19 Detachment for about six (6) months. I think it was when 20 John Carson -- actually did not -- it was not a 21 retirement, John Carson got promoted to Inspector and 22 went to Chatham. 23 So I picked it up during the time period. 24 I was not about to go in there and start changing things 25 because I knew it was an interim role for me that they
651 were advertising. 2 And so I left the liaison officers as they 3 were. I left the Forest Detachment sergeants who knew 4 Myles and Tom, I left them to deal with those issues. 5 And I -- and I centred on -- on the south. 6 So I certainly did not have the same 7 relationship, no. And then within that six (6) months, 8 as I say, it reverted back to Charlie Bouwman when he -- 9 when he took the job. 10 Q: Okay. And I understand, as well, 11 that in February of 1994 -- excuse me, let's just step 12 back for a second. 13 In April of 1994, if you could go to 14 Exhibit P-1447, the notes at page 11. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And there's a note April 26th, 1994, 17 and what -- can you tell us what that related to? It was 18 the occupation of the Ipperwash Army Camp. 19 A: Yeah. From the note, I travelled to 20 Forest to meet with the Military police, a Captain, I 21 haven't got his name, I don't know if he gave it to me, 22 and a Warrant Officer Lloyd Stone, Military Intelligence, 23 actually. 24 Military police were divided between 25 uniform military police -- they were -- it's hard to tell
661 when you look at their cap badge, but I think they're now 2 separate to be. And these fellows were, by this note, 3 not uniform military police, per se, they were military 4 intelligence personnel. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Sergeant Allison, I think George was 7 actually running Forest as it sat -- as a satellite at 8 that time. And because I -- like I say, even though I 9 was responsible, I was still in Petrolia. 10 He may have actually called this meeting 11 on the prompting of the Military police, I guess, because 12 I'm called to it. And Neil Morris was the London Joint - 13 - Joint Task Force, he was on a London OPP Intelligence 14 and he was on a Joint Task Force. 15 And the meeting was about Native 16 occupation of Ipperwash Army Camp, an upcoming 17 anniversary party February 6th, 7th. Discussed 18 contingency plans for the event. 19 I can't recall what those contingencies 20 might have looked like, but then at 16:00 I certainly 21 must have called Inspector Carson re the anniversary and 22 -- and our discussions. 23 Because anything, you know, like I was the 24 day to day Commander and I would handle, you know, day to 25 day routine low level. If there was going to be any kind
671 of an incident or, you know, a major incident, the OPP 2 had already designated John Carson as the Incident 3 Commander, he was the overall in charge. 4 So it looked like, after this meeting, 5 whatever was discussed, I called him and briefed him. 6 Q: Okay. Then on the next page, page 12 7 there's a note April 27th, 1994: 8 "At 09:00 meet Mayor Marcel Beaubien re 9 Petrolia Municipal Policing Contract 10 [and then] Concerns re..." 11 I can't read the rest -- 12 A: "Re the present chief." 13 That -- that was the Chief of Police. 14 What the concern is the Chief could retire, and basically 15 I think he was wanting to know from the Town what they 16 were doing. 17 And so there was just concern if the Chief 18 retired, you know, how soon could the OPP, you know, take 19 over the police force. And I think the discussion there 20 was, would the OPP put in a supervisor prior to the full 21 -- to the full takeover. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Would we be willing to put in, like, 24 an acting supervisor. 25 Q: And that was the beginning of -- or
681 that meeting was part of the negotiations with respect to 2 the municipal police contract? 3 A: Yes. Yeah. 4 "Petrolia municipal police contract 5 concern." 6 Yeah. 7 Q: Then at the bottom of that page, at 8 April 29th, 1994, you had a meeting with Mark Wright, 9 Sergeant Mark Wright, and travelled to Chatham and had a 10 meeting with Camp Ipperwash and the anniversary party 11 that you contemplated; is that correct? 12 Do you have any recollection of this 13 meeting? 14 A: None other than I would have, you 15 know, carried on the information that I received from 16 military intelligence, whatever those concerns were, 17 during this discussion. 18 I would have re -- reiterated if there was 19 a concern. I don't even remember that there was. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: I don't remember a direct concern. I 22 certainly would have passed that on in this meeting to 23 Inspector Carson. 24 Q: And then it says, on the page 13, 25 part way down the page:
691 "IC equal Inspector -- " 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- Carson." 4 And that refers to what? 5 A: That's Incident Commander, Inspector 6 Carson. And then it goes -- we must have had a talk 7 right after, and then I go into: 8 "Direction of the County officers re 9 investigations on reserve." 10 Q: And -- 11 A: And I think that might lead to some 12 of the direction that was given to the officers. I'm 13 calling it a reserve, but I wonder if I meant the camp; 14 I'm not sure. 15 Q: Okay. Then I would ask you to turn 16 to page -- Tab 4 of that black book in front of you. And 17 for the benefit of My Friends this is a copy of Inquiry 18 Document 2001338. It's Exhibit P-1166. 19 It's a letter dated May 4th, 1994, and it 20 appears over your name, although there's not a signature. 21 Do you recall this letter, Mr. Lacroix? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes. This is, I believe, even
701 reference to that discussion I think John and I had about 2 the touchy situation about policing the army camp with 3 occupiers, you know, cohabitating. You know, the 4 occupiers at that time were -- had only occupied the 5 range area, the training area, 6 and the Military police were still on the base proper. 7 It's very similar to what I did with 8 Walpole Island and Kettle and Stony Point, it's -- it's - 9 - it's recognizing that the OPP have a protocol with the 10 Military police, matter of fact, it's an MOU, I believe, 11 at the highest level. 12 I believe it's actually in police orders, 13 and I believe it's actually in -- in the Military police 14 mandate that we must support the Military police in the 15 Province of Ontario, anywhere, any base. 16 I remember when I worked at Kingston, it 17 was the same thing, there to be treated as, you know, law 18 enforcement or peace officers in Ontario, if they call 19 for assistance, you will assist. 20 If they don't have a breathalyser, you 21 will provide them a breathalyser. If they -- they cannot 22 do serious occurrences, I think, above sexual assault, 23 under their own mandate. I think we had a rape at King - 24 - at base Kingston and I -- we had to send in our 25 detectives to assist them.
711 So this is recognizing, look, they're a 2 bonafide police agency, we will support them, as OPP 3 policy says, if they need assistance. If they come to 4 Forest Detachment they can certainly do their own arrest. 5 If they arrest an impaired driver they bring the party to 6 Forest, we will provide a breathalyser and we will assist 7 in that regard. 8 However, I'm trying to -- it looked like 9 the Military -- it was almost like what was going on at 10 West Ipperwash Beach. We were getting -- my reference is 11 to a domestic between a husband and a wife, is the 12 husband and wife, if they could just go to a civil court 13 and just divide up the property, it would be a lot 14 better. But what you end up getting is you get both 15 parties thinking if the police are involved it's better. 16 So I think we were getting a whole bunch 17 of calls to back up the Military Police. So in paragraph 18 -- okay, one (1), two (2), three (3), four (4), I'm 19 saying, Look, I don't want to say we don't assist them 20 where we're supposed to assist them by protocol, 21 providing a breathalyser technician, but we do not go out 22 onto the Camp for every little mischief because the OPP 23 has SIR, selective initial response. Under a certain 24 dollar value you simply call it in, we make an 25 occurrence, we do not send a patrol car.
721 So in some sense the Military were 2 involving us far too much. At the same time I'm trying 3 to walk the line by saying, you know, we support the 4 Military Police no different than Kettle Point Police, 5 like, you know. 6 Then I go on -- I mean we must -- we must 7 appear to be neutral. Accordingly, it should not be the 8 practice of officers to take coffee breaks. It's 9 probably no surprise to you that police officers like 10 coffee, and one (1) of the places you could get coffee in 11 North Lambton twenty-four (24) hours a day, and good 12 coffee, was at the Base. There was always an urn on. We 13 had free access through the gate, so it was not unheard 14 of. 15 I mean, I wasn't supposed to know it 16 because there shouldn't be three (3) or four (4) cars 17 there, but at 4:00 in the morning it was known that there 18 might be a shift meeting where there's hot coffee. 19 And this same kind of practice would go on 20 at Kettle and Walpole Island too. They're down at the 21 south end of the county, you go over to the police 22 station and you have a coffee with your brother and your 23 sister officers. 24 So I'm trying to say to them, Okay, look I 25 -- I realize what you think you're doing, I know it's the
731 middle of the night, I know you want to just get a cup of 2 coffee, but I'm trying to maintain neutrality, or we are 3 trying to maintain neutrality. Think about what that 4 looks like, four (4) and five (5) police cars parked on 5 the parade square. You know, we don't want to be seen to 6 be taking sides, we don't want to be caught in the 7 middle. 8 So I said only George Speck, and now 9 George Speck was -- was at that time, I believe, the 10 liaison, because I think he was the GLE officer. 11 Q: The which? 12 A: He was the General -- he was like the 13 -- I can't remember if he was in detect -- full detective 14 yet, but he was the designated general law enforcement, 15 so the criminal officer. So we did not want to 16 completely cut ourselves off from the Military, because, 17 of course, they did give intelligence, as well, as to 18 where things were at. 19 So you want to keep that communication 20 open, but you don't want to be seen to be taking sides. 21 Q: So it was your direction, as set out 22 in this letter, that because of the ongoing, as you put 23 it in the top of the page, land dispute with respect to 24 the Army Camp, that you did not want the OPP officers to 25 be attending at the Army Camp to have coffee, but to
741 maintain their neutrality? 2 A: Absolutely. 3 Q: And at the time -- you indicated 4 earlier that the occupation by the members of the First 5 Nation was in the rifle ranges. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as I understand it, you're -- are 8 you referring to the area east of the built-up area of 9 the Army Camp along Highway 21? 10 A: Is that east or is that north? Yeah, 11 I guess northeast. Up 21. 12 Q: Up 21 towards Grand Bend. 13 A: At that point I'd call it 21 running 14 north and south, but I could be mistaken. I know people 15 have difference with down at Ipperwash, but I think it's 16 running fairly north/south so -- 17 Q: It's the area to -- on the lake side 18 of Highway 21 -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- on the -- leading from the built- 21 up area of the Army Camp towards Grand Bend? 22 A: Right. That's where the occupiers 23 were camped. 24 Q: And out towards Outer Drive? 25 A: Yes.
751 Q: Then if you could turn to Tab 5, this 2 is a letter dated May 30th, 1994. It's Inquiry Document 3 2001063. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 5 to make that last letter an exhibit? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's already an 7 exhibit, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it? I 9 don't have a number on it. What number is it? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's P-1166. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1166. 12 That's the one of May 4th? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: The letter at Tab 5 is a letter to a 18 -- to Mr. Christopherson , it's Inquiry Document 2001063. 19 And on page 2 of the letter, it's page 3 of the fax. We 20 don't have the fax cover sheet. 21 There's a note: 22 "Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix, OPP." 23 Do you recall receiving this letter, sir? 24 A: I -- I vaguely -- I do vaguely 25 remember receiving something of this, I believe after the
761 meeting, like after -- what is that, 30th of May? When 2 did we meet with Bosanquet? 3 Q: You met with Bosanquet, according to 4 your notes, in November of '93, but there may very well 5 have been, and we'll come to it, another meeting in the 6 middle of May -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- at Petrolia, but this -- do you 9 recall receiving a copy of this letter? 10 A: I -- I do remember speaking to 11 Bosanquet Township about my proposal to have additional 12 patrols in the area, but, I mean -- there was discussion 13 about that last paragraph. 14 Q: Yes? And that's the third paragraph 15 on page 1? 16 A: Yes. But I think I'd already 17 explained to them that I was planning on doing that, but 18 that's -- that's why I was wondering if we didn't have a 19 meeting. 20 Q: And... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: So I remember the contacts, but I 25 don't remember this letter, specifically.
771 Q: And if we could ask -- if you could 2 go to page 14 of the notes, Exhibit P-1447. I may have 3 misspoke myself. There's a note, yes, May 26th, 1994, a 4 meeting with Township officials, it's -- do you see that? 5 A: Page 14 -- 6 Q: May 26th. 7 A: May 27th, okay. 8 Q: May 26th, it's the top of the page. 9 A: Oh, 26th, okay. Right. Yeah, I 10 thought there had been a -- a meeting at Bosanquet 11 Township Town Hall called by the Mayor of Bosanquet, 12 about West Ipperwash Beach and concerns of the friction 13 that was taking place out there. 14 Q: And this note reads: 15 "Travel to Bosanquet Township Hall re 16 meeting -- re meet with Township 17 officials, MNR officials." 18 Is that what it says? 19 A: Yes. 20 "MNR officials and West Ipperwash Beach 21 officials." 22 Q: And do you re -- have any independent 23 recollection of that meeting? 24 A: I can't remember -- I remember being 25 called to Bosanquet Township, meeting with Mayor -- Mayor
781 Thomas. 2 Q: And do you recall receiving a copy of 3 the letter at Tab 5? The one that's in front of you, May 4 30th -- 5 A: I don't -- I don't recognize the 6 letter. I just recognize the complaint on the third 7 paragraph -- of their concern, I should say. 8 Q: But the -- would you agree with me 9 that with your name on it, it's likely that, although you 10 don't recall it today, you did receive the letter? 11 A: It's written to me, right? 12 Q: It's -- you're shown as having a 13 copy, received a copy. 14 A: Well, definitely I would have 15 received one. 16 Q: I would ask that be the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1450, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1450: Document Number 2001063. 20 Letter to Solicitor General 21 from Township of Bosanquet 22 re. Disputes over return of 23 Army Camp Ipperwash to 24 Chippewas of Kettle and 25 Stony Point, copied to Wade
791 Lacroix, May 30, 1994. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, if you could go back to your 5 notes for a moment, please, at page 14. There's a note, 6 May 27th, 1994, and it refers to a meeting at Pinery Park 7 and at the Army Camp. 8 Do you recall meeting with Mr. Les 9 Kobayashi at the Pinery Park on May 27, '94 or the Army 10 Camp meeting with the individuals listed? 11 A: I remember meeting with Les Kobayashi 12 and it says over Ipperwash beach. I think his concern 13 was the Ipperwash Provincial Park. That's... 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: I think -- 16 Q: The note reads: 17 "Travelled to Pinery Provincial Park 18 re. meet Les Kobayashi. Arrive --" 19 A: Right. 20 Q: "Lunch meet -- meeting re. Ipperwash 21 beach and Park [hyphen] -Army --" 22 A: Army base. 23 Q: "Army-base. Meet Don Matheson." 24 A: I think, if I remember correct -- 25 leaving and going to meet Don Matheson, the thing that I
801 recall was that there was -- there was mischief taking 2 place down the end of Matheson Drive to the pylons that 3 separated the Ipperwash Provincial Park from the Army 4 Base; that the pylons were being cut down and then they 5 put in a gate and the gate was being damaged. 6 So, I -- I left that meeting and went out 7 to meet Don. 8 Q: Don Matheson? 9 A: Don Matheson, at Ipperwash Provincial 10 Park. I remember their main concern then was that they 11 were mysteriously losing locks and pylons and that's my 12 recollection. 13 Q: Yeah. And then you had a meeting as 14 well, at the Army Camp, with respect to something that 15 had happened at the Army Camp? 16 A: Yeah, and that -- yeah, it's Captain 17 Prentice again and Captain Robichaud of the Military 18 Police. 19 "The assaults on May 24 weekends -- 20 weekend. Natives camping in dunes and 21 Military Pol -- Police patrols on the 22 beach." 23 I -- I don't mean that that meant the 24 assaults were on the Military Police. My recollection is 25 that there were occupiers down in the beach area and
811 there had been some altercation with people trying to use 2 the beach. 3 That's -- that's -- that's all I recall, 4 is that this was a lot of people in the dunes on the May 5 24 weekend. 6 Q: All right. And then there's a note 7 on page 15, again, May -- this May 30th. 8 "Meeting at prime office Petrolia, re. 9 June 16 pow-wow". 10 A: Yeah, and I -- I think that -- I 11 mean, I don't know maybe -- I don't know. That pow-wow 12 might have been the Walpole Island pow-wow. 13 Q: Okay. And not -- 14 A: I didn't -- by that date somebody 15 might know... 16 Q: Now -- 17 A: I don't think it was Kettle. 18 Q: The -- if I could ask you to turn to 19 Tab 6 of the black book in front of you. This is a copy 20 of Exhibit P-1093, Inquiry Document 2000341. 21 And the first -- do you recall seeing this 22 document before, Mr. Lacroix? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the -- at the first document in 25 Exhibit P-1093, is a copy -- is a document similar to
821 Exhibit P-1166, the letter of May 4th, 1994 that relates 2 to CFB Ipperwash. 3 And I can tell you, the only difference is 4 the reference to George Speck no longer appears in the 5 document that's at P-1093. 6 Do you recall today why you took Mr. 7 Speck's name out of this letter? 8 A: I'm not sure that I did. 9 Q: Oh. 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: And then there's a letter at May 10th 12 19 -- May 30th, 1994. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: May 10th? 17 Q: Do you see that? It's a -- it'll be 18 the fourth page in, right there. 19 A: May 31st? 20 Q: May 30th. 21 A: May 30th? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Okay, May -- okay, May 30th. Okay.
831 So there were -- yeah, this one. There were three (3), 2 right? Yeah, that one, this one. Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And the -- the May 30th letter is 7 actually from Detective Sergeant Wright -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- but on page 3 there's an addendum 10 that is over your signature -- over your name, excuse me. 11 It's on pages 3 and 4. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Do you recall this memorandum in its 14 entirety and your addition to it, Mr. Lacroix? 15 A: Yeah. This -- this, you know, 16 certainly was discussion from Detachment personnel, it 17 was discussions we had with the Ratepayers Association, 18 discussions with the mayor of Bosanquet. And we had -- 19 we had sought legal advice and what we're just trying to 20 say is, you know, to the police officers -- so Mark and I 21 had quite a discussion. 22 We were concerned that young officers 23 coming out of police college of course Trespass is one 24 (1) of their -- their big, you know, tools to solve 25 certain types of complaints and we were trying to explain
841 to them due to the fact of the land claim and it was in 2 civil court, colour of right is an issue; that tool, so 3 to speak, is not one (1) they should be using because it 4 would probably just get thrown out of court. 5 However, it doesn't stop you from 6 enforcing the Criminal Code. You know, intimidation will 7 not be allowed, alcohol on the beach will not be allowed. 8 Q: And that's alcohol on the beach by 9 anyone? 10 A: By anyone, but that became a real 11 touchy one as well because you've not only got the land 12 claim you also have the Supreme Court deciding at what 13 point the high water mark is and on that beach it's quite 14 high. So we did have problems with even the cottagers 15 coming too far out onto the beach to have their party as 16 long. 17 As they stay close to their cottager that 18 was their residence, they could certainly have libation 19 but if they got too far away from the cottage they too 20 were subject to a liquor license violation. 21 So, you know, trying to just balance with 22 the officers that, you know, we didn't want them getting 23 frustrated and not responding, you know, thinking that 24 they -- they couldn't do anything. There was lots of 25 things they could still do and their presence was -- was
851 required and was needed. 2 Q: And the addendum that you added 3 starting at page 3 refers to a meeting on May 26th which 4 we just looked at your note with -- with Township of 5 Bosanquet officials, Superintendent Randall -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- and the president of the Ipperwash 8 Cottage Owners' Association. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And the -- there's a -- a reference 11 in the last paragraph: 12 "In an attempt to calm everyone down I 13 would ask that all north zone personnel 14 take the initiative to actively patrol 15 the beach area and respond to calls for 16 service in an expeditious fashion. I 17 have been appointed as Incident 18 Commander for both West Ipperwash Beach 19 and the Army Camp." 20 And then you go on, on the next page: 21 "I would appreciate notification of any 22 major occurrences pertaining to these 23 two (2) areas. I would also appreciate 24 all press releases and occurrences 25 pertaining to these two (2) areas to be
861 faxed to my location for my attention." 2 And then the reference to you as Incident 3 Commander, can you explain to the Commissioner what that 4 refered to please? 5 A: In the OPP, Commissioner, there's two 6 (2) levels of incident command; there's level 1 and level 7 2. Level 1 was selected Detachment commanders, staff 8 sergeant rank, and it was -- it was designed for major 9 occurrences, but more in the sense of like a tornado, 10 something of that nature; below the threshold of calling 11 out the TRU team, below the threshold of threat of 12 violence. 13 If there was a threat of violence it had 14 to be a Level 2 Incident Commander. And the designated 15 Incident Commander for that level or threshold was John 16 Carson, but I had been designated by Superintendent 17 Randall to be the Level 1 Incident Commander. 18 So therefore I was dealing with the low 19 level media releases and I was dealing with all the 20 occurrences at that level. Not to bother him for this -- 21 every mischief if that's -- 22 Q: So you dealt with the -- on the lower 23 level items and John Carson was the Incident Commander 24 for the more -- any -- the more serious occurrence? 25 A: Right. There's pro -- the OPP throws
871 that term around, Incident Commander, but there's two (2) 2 levels of Incident Commander. 3 Q: And you were a Level 1 -- 4 A: One (1). 5 Q: -- Incident Commander and John Carson 6 was a Level 2? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then at the next page, the fifth 9 page in, there's a letter May 31, 1994 directed to -- 10 over your signature, directed to all members in Lambton 11 County with respect to the mandatory training? 12 A: Yes. The discussion, you know, from 13 the groups of their fears and -- and the officers trying 14 to understand. Mark Wright and I had a discussion and we 15 went to the Superintendent and said maybe we should have 16 mandatory training. 17 So of course that would go to the in- 18 service trainers which would be Sergeant Seltzer so that 19 was some involvement of bringing Brad in on how to 20 conduct mandatory training to deal with this -- this 21 issue of West Ipperwash Beach; like what laws would be 22 applicable which -- which would not. 23 And I remember we gave him occurrences, 24 actual occurrences, and he was to design the training 25 around actual occurrences that we had been dealing with -
881 - removing the names but -- 2 Q: And so that you had provided the 3 scenarios or the occurrences that he then dealt with in 4 preparing the material? 5 A: Yes. I think he worked very closely 6 with Mark Wright who produced the actual -- 7 Q: And I note that you attended the 8 training program on June 14th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Your name appears -- it's about ten 11 (10) pages from the back. It's a nominal role June 14th, 12 1994 Wade Lacroix, 5154 Petrolia. 13 A: My notebook shows I was there -- 14 Grand Bend? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Grand Bend mandatory training, 17 Ipperwash -- 18 Q: And what page is that in your notes? 19 A: Page -- bottom of 17 over to the top 20 of 18. 21 Q: Okay. And so you attended that 22 training. And then there was training the next year, in 23 1995. And you didn't attend I don't believe the training 24 in 1995? 25 A: No. I wouldn't have been responsible
891 for North Lambton but also maybe the date I -- I might 2 not have been available either. 3 Q: And by 1995 you weren't responsible 4 for this area? 5 A: For North Lambton, no. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I was solely -- I was back to just 8 South Lambton only. 9 Q: Perhaps this would be an appropriate 10 time for the morning break, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it 12 would be a good time. Let's take our morning break. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 11:59 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 25 Commissioner.
901 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: I would ask you, Mr. Lacroix, to 5 please turn to -- again to page 18 of Exhibit P-1447, the 6 loose notes. 7 At the bottom of the page, June 16th, 8 1994, there's a reference meeting -- there's a reference 9 to Detective Sergeant Wright and: 10 "re. pow-wow on weekend and solidarity 11 day, June 21st." 12 Do you see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you have any recollection of 15 what you discussed with Sergeant Wright about that? 16 A: None. 17 Q: And at Tab 7 of the book of documents 18 in front of you, there's a fax that was sent from you to 19 Detective Staff Sergeant Tim O'Hagon. Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 2001342. 22 And can you tell us, on this document which is -- 23 attaches a: 24 "Solidarity celebration, Kettle and 25 Stony Point First Nation, Tuesday June
911 21, 1994." 2 What is your handwriting on the fax cover 3 sheet? 4 A: My -- mine would be the printing 5 because my handwriting is not that good. 6 Q: So that the -- your message is: 7 "FYI, sent to..." 8 A: "Superintendent Wall." 9 Q: Wall. And then the writing below 10 that is not your writing? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And was -- did you provide any of the 13 information in the note below your -- your printing? 14 A: No, I'm -- no. I have no 15 recollection of any of this. 16 Q: And someone said that -- it reads: 17 "Tom Wall called advisory, advising 18 Rosemary Ur. Lambton MPP called the 19 Solicitor General's office with info 20 from Mrs. La Pratt that four thousand 21 (4,000) natives will attend this event 22 and wanted the OPP notified to provide 23 adequate policing. As you can see, it 24 is definitely a [quote], 'terrorist', 25 [close quote] day.
921 Detective Superintendent given a copy. 2 Tim." 3 You played no role in those -- that note? 4 A: No, I -- the only other thing is the 5 next page, there's a few -- no, I -- no, I stop at "sent 6 to Superintendent Wall" and then I think I printed "set 7 up at 10:30 a.m." 8 Q: That's on page 2? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it was sent to you -- there's a 11 note, Ken Williams to Wade Lacroix, the -- the agenda for 12 the solidarity day was sent to you? 13 A: Yes. I got it, I believe, by fax, 14 from Ken -- 15 Q: And then your handwriting or printing 16 appears at the bottom "on reserve" with respect to the 17 ball games? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the handwriting on this sheet is 20 not yours, under tent? 21 A: No, that's -- the upper right corner 22 is not mine. 23 Q: Okay. I would ask that this be 24 marked the next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1451, Your Honour.
931 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1451: Document Number 2001342. 2 Faxed Intelligence sent by 3 Staff Sgt. Lacroix re. 4 "Solidarity Day" June 21, 5 1994. Agenda for Celebrations 6 for Kettle and Stony Point 7 First Nation, June 20, 1994. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And as I understand it, the 11 solidarity day came and went and -- with no problems? 12 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 13 Q: And at Tab 8, there's a copy of 14 Inquiry Document 2001832. It's a -- it's a copy of a 15 report of June 22nd, 1994 from the Sarnia Observer. 16 Do you recall seeing this report at or 17 about the time it was printed in June of 1994? 18 A: No, I do not recall it, no. 19 Q: And you were quoted in the last 20 column that: 21 "Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix said, 22 Monday extra OPP patrols which have 23 included plain clothes officers have 24 discovered no significant act -- 25 significant activity in the beach
941 area." 2 Do you recall advising the -- the 3 reporter, Mr Bowen about that or was that -- 4 A: I remember -- I remember that being 5 the case. I don't remember being interviewed. 6 Q: And -- but that was the case? There 7 were no -- 8 A: Yes. We -- 9 Q: I would ask that this be marked the 10 next exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1452, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1452: Document Number 2001832. 14 Sarnia Observer article 15 "Temperature Hot, Tempers not 16 at Kettle Point Beach Picnic" 17 with quote from Staff Sgt. 18 Lacroix, June 22, 1994. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the article also refers to it 22 being quite throughout the day and that's your 23 recollection as well? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Then the summer of 1994 I understand
951 that you instituted ATV patrols on Ipperwash Beach during 2 the summer of 1994? 3 A: Yes that's -- that's correct. 4 Q: And why did you do that? 5 A: I just thought that having more 6 police presence on the beach would just calm down the, 7 what did we say before, the frustrations, the -- the 8 frayed tempers we're getting over the land claim. 9 But I -- I ran it actually all the way 10 from West Ipperwash Beach across Ipperwash Army Camp 11 because they had had complaints about liquor, open 12 bottle, packaged liquor on the beach. And I ran it 13 across the Army Camp Beach right up to Port Franks and 14 back because we were also having break and enters up in 15 the Port Frank's area. So it ran the whole beach. 16 Q: Not just West Ipperwash but the 17 whole -- 18 A: Not just West Ipperwash, no. 19 Q: And the -- if I could now ask you to 20 turn to Tab 9, Exhibit P-1448 and these are your notes 21 principally from 1995. And you attended -- or were 22 called out with respect to an incident on February 27th, 23 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- your notes indicate you
961 were called out by Inspector Linton. 2 A: Yes, Dale Linton. 3 Q: And you were to assist at the Command 4 Post? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And is that what you did? 7 A: Yes, I was there as the local -- like 8 logistics and the local rep, and knowledge of the local 9 area. 10 Q: And so did you -- where was the 11 Command Post set up? 12 A: I believe we met at the Band office 13 but then we moved down to the library on Kettle Point -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- and Stony Point Reserve. 16 Q: And so -- and you remained at the 17 Command Post? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And the -- your role was to assist 20 Inspector Linton? 21 A: Yes, I was, again a Level 1 to assist 22 a Level 2 with logistics. The Detachment Commander fills 23 that job a lot because he also has the local knowledge, 24 so if you do need something, he knows where to get it; 25 like logistically. If you need -- if you need extra cars
971 or fuel or -- so I was an assistant to him predominantly 2 in the logistic side. 3 Q: Okay. And if I could just step back 4 for a moment. In the fall of 1994 I understand that you 5 attended training with respect to the Crowd Management 6 Unit? 7 A: Yes. I attended the Crowd Management 8 -- Crowd Management Unit training at Camp Meaford for a 9 week. 10 Q: And at Tab 3 of your book there's 11 Inquiry Document 2000348. And do you recognize this 12 document, sir? 13 A: Well this would be the entire course 14 training standard for the Emergency Response Team -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- which is actually a -- it 17 originally was a five (5) week course and when they added 18 crowd management it became a six (6) week course. 19 So this would be the course training 20 standard of everything it takes to train an ERT member. 21 So this would be the entire package. 22 Q: And as I understand it, in the fall 23 of 1994 you did not attend the ERT train -- team 24 training, only the Crowd Management Unit training. 25 A: That's true. I came in on week six
981 (6). Phase 6 they call it. 2 Q: Phase 6. 3 A: Crowd Management. 4 Q: And the Phase 6 is entitled in this 5 document, Crowd Management? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And it starts, just for the purposes 8 of the record, at -- the reference at the bottom of the 9 document is 90520009052. 10 And -- but you had been -- you were aware 11 that this was the training standard for the ERT team 12 members and including the Crowd Management Unit? 13 A: Yes. The Crowd Management Unit was 14 made up solely of ERT members after '93, I guess. 15 Q: And I would as that this be the next 16 exhibit, sir. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1453, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT No. P-1453: Document Number 2000348. 20 Emergency Response Team 21 Training Manual, March 22, 22 1994. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And the -- as I understand it you
991 were not a member of an ERT team? 2 A: No. 3 Q: But as a Staff Sergeant you were 4 trained as a Level 1 Incident Commander? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you attended the training for the 7 Crowd Management Unit, which is phase 6 of the training. 8 And why was that? 9 A: They realized that under these new 10 tactics, after there had been a, you know, a focus group 11 on the way were doing things, and they come up with this 12 new way of doing crowd management. They realized it was 13 a fairly large formation, approximately thirty-two (2) 14 people, therefore it would take two (2) ERT teams to make 15 one (1) CMU. 16 An ERT sergeant -- an expanded control of 17 a sergeant is like ten (10) or twelve (12), so already an 18 ERT sergeant's got quite a span of control with sixteen 19 (16). 20 So a decision was made that if you're 21 going to bring two (2) ERT teams together to be a Crowd 22 Management Unit, you know, should have a staff sergeant 23 over that unit because that actually would be about the 24 size of most Detachments in the province of Ontario at 25 that time, thirty-two (32) plus member.
1001 Q: And so that the -- you, as a staff 2 sergeant, were assigned a role with the Crowd Management 3 Unit? 4 A: They were called out in that 5 function, to be a full CMU in hard tack. A staff 6 sergeant comman -- CMU commander was also to be called to 7 command it if they were deployed. 8 Q: A CMU commander being...? 9 A: A staff -- a volunteer staff 10 sergeant, physical fitness pin, Level 1 Incident Command 11 and must attend phase 6 ERT training, must be a trained 12 Crowd Management Unit member. 13 Q: Okay. And that's what you became as 14 a result of attending this training? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the document that we've marked as 17 exhibit P-1453 was the, at least for you part of it, the 18 Crowd Management Unit part of it was provided to you as 19 part of your training? 20 A: These would have been the teaching 21 points of each lesson on the week's course. 22 Q: Okay. And I note on page 6-3 of the 23 phase 6 under Crowd Management Introduction it indicates 24 the objective of this particular session is to explain 25 the primary purpose of the CMU as being the role of
1011 developing a crowd trained personnel to pro-actively 2 manage crowds at all levels of order? 3 A: Where's that at? Okay, sorry. 4 Q: At the top of the page you'll see 5 6:3? 6 A: Okay. 6:1, 6:2. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: 6:3? Okay. 6:3. All right. I'm 11 sorry, say that again, it was the -- you were reading the 12 Instruction Centre statement? 13 Q: Yeah, the obj -- of the objectives. 14 Was that the objective? 15 A: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Okay. Yes. 20 Q: Now, can you just tell the 21 Commissioner a little bit about the training for you to 22 act as the leader of the Crowd Management Unit, without 23 going through this document? 24 A: If I remember correctly, the week was 25 at Camp -- at Camp Meaford, as I said. We started at a
1021 course on the Monday morning with a lot of the theory, 2 Crowd Management theory about crowd dynamics, the 3 different types of crowd groups. 4 They very quickly moved on to the 5 formations, the different -- these were all new to the 6 OPP, everything before under the old crowd control used 7 to be just all pretty much line. There was quite a few 8 new formations; cordon formation, a lot of them done on 9 the move, like they were fairly dynamic, very flexible. 10 So there was a lot of footwork of just 11 learning those formations. That was, I think, like, 12 Monday afternoon and all day Tuesday. 13 We very quickly moved into the new 14 equipment. There was equipment that had never been in 15 OPP's inventory before: New made for purpose helmets, 16 shin pads, elbow pads, thigh pads. There was, I said 17 helmets. There was -- they always had shields and 18 sticks, but it was the helmet and all the protective 19 equipment. 20 So how to put it on; once we were taught 21 to put it on we kept it on for the remainder of that 22 course. To build confidence in this new equipment we 23 went out in the field and divided in half. And 24 basically, there was barrels of hockey pucks, field 25 hockey balls, pieces of wood, PVC pipe, and we started
1031 back 40 metres, throwing these things at each other, 2 moving in, moving in, moving in. 3 It was -- it was an exercise to build 4 confidence in the equipment that you were going to wear. 5 And then from -- that would be about, like, Wednesday. 6 And then we went into wearing all the 7 equipment, all the time, doing the formations all over 8 base Meaford; back, forth, down the side streets, some 9 individuals playing role play. 10 And then on the final day, on the final 11 Friday, we also learned how to in -- de-bus a bus. 12 The Friday was scenarios. They had 13 military volunteers come out to be demonstrators, and 14 there was two (2) or three (3) scenarios. 15 There was actually three (3) of us staff 16 sergeants on that course. Each -- each region, I was in 17 A -- A division at that time. There was 1 District ERT, 18 2 District ERT, 3 District ERT, 6 District ERT; well, in 19 those areas there was ideally to be one (1) of these 20 staff sergeant commanders. 21 I was the one from number 1 District, old 22 Number 1 District. I think there was Gary Martin 23 (phonetic) was there from old Number 6. 24 So Kincardine, Al Quin was the Number 2 25 District Commander at that time. I think Norm Denkirk
1041 was for old Number 3; I don't believe he was on the 2 course. 3 So on the Friday, the three (3) staff 4 sergeant crowd management, brandly -- newly trained 5 commanders, ran a multitude of scenarios. Some of them 6 started out with soft TAC, I'll leave that alone for now, 7 and progressed to hard TAC. 8 And we just ran scenarios all day Friday 9 against these role players from the army and that was the 10 end of the course, and then course graduation. 11 Q: And can you tell us the theory of the 12 crowd management unit training, the theory behind the 13 crowd management unit as you were taught it in the fall 14 of 1994? 15 A: Well, the -- the part I liked about 16 this new training was it was -- there were different 17 components to it. 18 There was -- they call graduated 19 application of force. The first part you were to 20 actually do crowd management by, if you thought there was 21 going to be a disturbance, we were trained in a -- in a 22 technique called soft TAC. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And soft TAC was just wearing your 25 dark grey fatigues, like more of the -- not the normal
1051 OPP uniform but just wearing like what ERT would wear on 2 a containment call. 3 Q: The grey uniform -- 4 A: The grey uniform with the big pockets 5 and they had ball hats. And if they thought there was 6 going to be a problem, what the commander was to do was 7 to put the officers, probably only one (1) team, out on 8 the street early. And they were to mingle in the crowd, 9 they were to show that there had been an increase in 10 officer presence, just by the look of this uniform. 11 I mean, I -- right away -- we've used it 12 quite extensively. We ended up using it here at Grand 13 Bend when on a -- on a May 24 weekend, if things started 14 to get a little edgy, we would put one (1) unit out on 15 the street, and right away people would notice there's a 16 change in uniform and wonder what was up. 17 But the officers were supposed to be very 18 engaging, and the idea was actually to get names and 19 things to take away the -- the ability to be anonymous 20 later, like, like to get out there and talk to people and 21 know who they were. 22 So that was the first part of the training 23 we were told. And then -- and then we were taught -- 24 taught that if graduated -- if the first part of 25 graduated application of force did not work, soft TAC, if
1061 the crowd became more disruptive, we were trained in what 2 was called hard TAC. 3 Hard TAC was the full CMU formation and, 4 of course, we'd put on all this equipment, which is 5 basically really protective equipment for the officers, 6 it was -- the helmets and that was to protect them 7 against projectiles. But it was also to send a signal, 8 you know, if the crowd was escalating we were sending a 9 message that we were determined to -- to control and 10 maintain order. 11 So that was, I guess, that was the main 12 theory, was the way we would approach it. 13 Q: And at page 6:4 of Exhibit P-1453, 14 there's a -- a description of a Crowd Management Unit as 15 -- do you see that on page 6:4? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: As being composed of four (4) squads, 18 a Contact Squad, Left Cover, Right Cover and Arrest 19 Squad. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So that these four (4) would add up 22 to thirty-two (32) members? 23 A: Yes. At that day it was six (6) 24 Constables in the front rank with a Sergeant team leader 25 and his number 2 in behind him. So each squad of eight
1071 (8), yes. 2 Q: And so the squad composition, as it 3 is described here, would be six (6) members, one (1) 4 squad leader and one (1) assistant squad leader? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And so a typical Crowd Management 7 Unit would have thirty-two (32) officers plus the Staff 8 Sergeant in charge? 9 A: Yes. And I had a second as well. 10 Q: So there would be thirty-four (34)? 11 A: Yes. If it was fully manned it would 12 be thirty-four (34). 13 Q: Thirty-four (34). And including what 14 is described here as the arrest squad of the support 15 squad. 16 A: There's only -- yeah, the only 17 problem with this is that those are the squads and for 18 some reason that fourth squad never should have been 19 named Arrest Squad. It becomes very ambiguous because 20 any one of the squads can perform an arrest. 21 That last squad I think now is called 22 Support Squad. It -- it had a multifaceted job that were 23 -- I think it got called Arrest Squad because the arrest 24 normally came from the rear. But, in truth, they're all 25 arrest squads -- anyway.
1081 Q: In the sense that they could all 2 arrest, if necessary? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And on page 65 there's an indication 5 of the command structure, which you're told us about. 6 The purpose of the CMU, the Code of Conduct for the 7 officers and the responsibility and officer duties; is 8 that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And there's a reference to use 11 psychological techniques. And do you recall today what 12 that refers to? 13 A: Yes. I mean some of the -- some of 14 the psychological techniques were, you know, to keep the 15 crowd guessing, not to let the crowd, you know, know what 16 we were going to do next, that effected crowd dynamic. 17 Shield chatter was discussed as a 18 psychological technique. 19 Q: And what was the psychological 20 technique of shield chatter? 21 A: Shield chatter was if we felt we 22 needed to project our authority, or if we needed to -- 23 sometimes -- just like in a bar fight, if you arrive in a 24 bar fight, two (2) people are yelling and screaming, 25 unfortunately, for an instant, you might have to yell
1091 over both of them to get their attention. So shield 2 chatter, that was one of its applications, was to get on 3 top of a loud din, to be heard. 4 Psychological techniques were the actual 5 movement, the way our movements, they move quickly. The 6 actual size that a formation -- the cordon formation 7 could look bigger than what it was. 8 So if you wanted to project, you know, 9 more of a presence by the different formations, you could 10 do that. So tying it all together and just talking about 11 how there's a psychological effect in each of these 12 things. 13 The overall appearance was that we -- we 14 realized was a psychological deterrent. 15 Q: The -- the appearance of the -- 16 A: The hard TAC, I mean, to us is 17 protective equipment, is to protect us in a hazardous 18 environment from projectiles. However, there is 19 discussion that we knew that it had a psychological 20 effect. 21 As I said even soft TAC had a subtle -- 22 subtle psychological affect on the streets of Grand Bend. 23 People knew right away, they'd see right away that the 24 officers were coming out on the street without the blue 25 stripe and the -- and the sets, and they knew something
1101 was up. 2 And it was meant to psychologically let 3 them know, you're getting a little out of control and 4 this is -- we're sending a different unit out here. It's 5 to try to say, you know, we've got to get it under 6 control. 7 It was all about projecting, you know, 8 officer safety, but it was also about, you know, trying 9 to maintain the public order. 10 Q: Okay. And I understand, as well, as 11 part of the training you learned about different types of 12 crowds? A: Yes. 13 Q: And at page 625 there's a -- a list 14 of types of crowd, casual crowds -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- cohesive crowd, aggressive crowd, 17 explosive crowd. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And -- and then on the previous page 20 6-23 there's a division between an orderly crowd and a 21 disorderly crowd. 22 A: They told us that two (2) main 23 differences of crowds were an orderly and disorderly 24 crowds. And then you're right, those other ones broke 25 down -- those are the different types of crowds,
1111 actually, I think, within -- yeah, those are the 2 breakdowns within orderly. 3 When it goes explosive, obviously it's 4 gone to a riot; that's disorderly. But you're right, the 5 main difference is an orderly crowd and a disorderly 6 crowd. 7 Q: And then the crowds are broken down 8 into -- you were taught they were broken down into 9 different types of crowds? 10 A: Yes. Casual would be shoppers, 11 cohesive would be people at the Sky Dome, as it says. 12 However, even coming out of the -- of the Grey Cup in 13 Vancouver there was a riot, right? I mean, yes, and then 14 aggressive crowd and then the one you -- you most want to 15 avoid or are fearful of, is the explosive crowd. 16 Q: All right. And then the training 17 that you were on in -- in October of 1994 involved 18 District 1 and District 2 ERT teams, or all of the ERT 19 teams? 20 A: My recollection was it was -- it was 21 all the teams, I believe, from southwestern Ontario. So 22 it would have been -- it was three (3) and six (6) for 23 sure. I can't remember if one (1) and two (2) were there 24 at the time I was going through, but it was -- what 25 happened was, when they rolled out this new technique,
1121 they started in southwestern Ontario, so we were the 2 first to be trained. 3 I just can't remember if at the -- if at 4 the school it was all four (4) districts from the 5 Division at that time. They all did get trained around 6 the same time, all four (4) districts, and it was our 7 four (4) that were the first to be trained. 8 Q: And can you tell me what, as part of 9 the training there is, and I just can't put my finger on 10 it, but if an officer was injured a -- it's a page 645, 11 "A technique for injured officer recovery,"; there's 12 arm/shoulder, belt/shoulder. Could you tell the 13 Commissioner what that refers to please? 14 A: That was 645? 15 Q: 645 at the top of the page. And the 16 reference is at -- towards the bottom of the page. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yeah. Obviously, one (1) of the 21 things that we're concerned about is if you go out into 22 the crowd, one (1) officer can get isolated, and he can 23 get knocked down out in the crowd. So given a CMU 24 operating in a cordon formation, and an arrest squad -- 25 see, like an arrest squad -- you can be in a cordon, a
1131 punchout can take place out in the crowd to make an 2 arrest, but, however, we could lose an officer, he could 3 be put down; assimilated officer within a hostile crowd. 4 So he's surrounded by a crowd. 5 Perform the officer rescue with the Arrest 6 Squad; so what you have to do is basically punch out 7 again with a squad. They would go out, the injured 8 officer's partner yells, Officer Down, officer Down. The 9 CMU's immediately halted. The injured officer's partner 10 immediately assumes a defensive position to protect the 11 injured officer. 12 Normally they would step forward with the 13 shield because you're trying to push the crowd off of the 14 officer, project him from -- to protect him from 15 projectiles, open up an open space behind. The support 16 officer who comes forward to stand beside the injured 17 officer's partner also assumes a defensive position. 18 Three (3) officers from the Arrest Team come forward to 19 the injured officer's position. 20 So you've got these officers, you know, 21 standing side by side, shields out, forward of him to 22 make this vacuum, so to speak, behind them. A three (3) 23 men Arrest Team comes out. One (1) officer assumes 24 injured officer position while the two (2) remaining 25 affect a rescue; arm/shoulder, belt/shoulder rescue.
1141 Bottom line, it's not pretty, it's grab 2 him by what you can grab him by and get him back in 3 behind the formational line. 4 Q: So the arm -- arm/shoulder, 5 belt/shoulder is a reference to how they pick up the -- 6 the officer? 7 A: I've seen big guys do a fireman's 8 carry, and if it works, it works. 9 Q: But it's the -- 10 A: It's meant to be grab him by the belt 11 and by the -- by his gear and -- two (2) of you, and pick 12 him up and -- 13 Q: And just remove him from the -- 14 A: Get him back in behind safety, which 15 is back into the cordon formation. 16 Q: And what, if anything, were you 17 taught as part of the CMU training with respect to the 18 use of megaphones to communicate with a crowd? 19 A: Nothing. 20 Q: And when you were trained you don't 21 recall receiving any training with respect to megaphones? 22 A: I don't remember -- 23 Q: Or loudhailers? 24 A: -- carrying one or using -- no 25 instruction and not issued and not using it in any of the
1151 scenarios. 2 Q: Okay. And I understand as well that 3 in May of 1995 as we've mentioned earlier, you attended 4 some refresher training with respect to the CMU? 5 A: Yes, I think -- 6 Q: It's May 9, it's page 24 of Exhibit 7 P-1447. 8 A: May 24? 9 Q: Page 24. 10 A: Oh, page 24? 11 Q: May 9, 1995. 12 A: Yes. "On duty travel to Ontario 13 Police College re. CMU training with 14 ERT. Arrived, check in. " 15 I was there, I believe, for two (2) days. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: No, it was the next day. 20 Q: The next -- we only have that one (1) 21 page. 22 A: Okay, they were supposed to do CMU 23 training every six (6) months maintenance, so I found out 24 that 1 -- I think it was 1 and 2 District were at the 25 Ontario Police College doing their -- ERT got more
1161 training than just CMU. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I forget how many days, but they were 4 doing two (2) days of maintenance training. I went down 5 and I partook in Crowd Management Unit formations at -- 6 out on the runway at Ontario Police College. 7 I believe I stuck around the next day to 8 watch a containment scenario, is my recollection. 9 Q: Okay. And among -- and I'm not going 10 to go through all of the formations that you were trained 11 with but among the formations... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: You were trained was a box formation 16 and a cordon formation; is that correct? 17 A: That was two (2) of them, yes. 18 Q: And perhaps... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: We've circulated today -- this is 23 from a later version of, I take it, of the training 24 manual, but on the screen we have what is known as a box 25 formation.
1171 And can you just describe what a box 2 formation is and what its purpose is or was, back in 3 1995? 4 A: The Box -- box formation is a contact 5 squad if you want to go to the bottom. 6 The box formation was an excellent 7 formation for travelling, say, down a road. It was in 8 four (4) ranks, nice and tight. It was easy to travel 9 in. 10 So you had basically your contact squad in 11 the front here. 12 Q: And what is the contact -- what's the 13 contact squad? 14 A: The contact squad -- well, it 15 probably comes from the because it's the front squad, 16 it's most likely to make contact first. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: So it's called the contact squad. 19 It's the first squad. So the contact squad stays as the 20 first squad. 21 So you have the three (3) pairs, two (2), 22 four (4), six (6). You have its team leader and his 23 number 2 just fall in behind. 24 Then I believe you would go to the, I 25 think, left cover. They -- they form up right behind
1181 with the number -- with the sergeant and number 2. 2 Right cover behind that with the two (2) 3 team leaders and your arrest team following. 4 So when you go to go to a cordon formation 5 all that happens is the contact stays in place, just 6 keeps walking. They simply move out to the left. 7 If I call cordon formation, they simply 8 move out to the right and arrest just keeps marching and 9 closes into a cordon, so -- 10 Q: And where in this scenario is the -- 11 on the box formation the CMU leader and the CMU assistant 12 leader? 13 A: We have an option for moving a great 14 distance. What can happen is we fall out of the 15 formation and march parallel to the side. 16 I believe that's where we were. If we're 17 getting close to a -- to a hazard or to the crowd we can 18 slip in beside the two (2) contact leaders because then 19 what'll happen is if we just stay there we'll be in the 20 right spot because left cover will slip left, right cover 21 will slip right and we'll end up in the middle of the 22 formation. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: So we have our options to tuck in or 25 stay out. I believe most of the time marching we were
1191 standing just off to the formation travelling parallel. 2 Q: Parallel to the -- to the group 3 moving? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And now the next diagram we have is - 6 - shows the cordon formation. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And actually the little squares are 9 in the -- going the wrong way. The arrow -- the front of 10 the unit is the Contact Squad? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: The contact is the front. 14 Q: And it would be moving to the top of 15 the page -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- so that the little identifier 18 should be the other way around? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so in a cordon formation and I 21 know that this is the way it's drawn here for the purpose 22 of this particular -- to fit on the page but can you tell 23 us what would happen in -- back in 1995 in theory with a 24 cordon formation? 25 How is it -- you would go from a box
1201 formation as you told us to a cordon formation if that 2 was to be used? 3 A: Yes. I would yell out -- box 4 formation by the way is what's it's used for is for 5 moving -- is for moving quickly down a road to get to an 6 area you want to be but it is not good protection; you're 7 too jammed together. It's -- it's bad for projectiles, 8 fire bombs, et cetera. 9 So you want to spread out. So as I'm 10 marching along I just have to yell out, Cordon formation. 11 So the contact squad essentially stays where it is but 12 you'll notice it spaces itself. 13 The other advantage that came from this 14 formation that we got from England was the pairs are ten 15 (10) feet apart so they would have to split -- split from 16 each other. 17 It's also deceiving by showing these pairs 18 because they are not touching, they are -- dressing is an 19 arm's dressing. The idea is that firebrands or 20 projectiles can now fall between you. 21 It was found that when you were all 22 shoulder to shoulder, shield to shield if everybody 23 doesn't keep their shields locked you have a tendency to 24 deflect the projectile back into the formation. So by 25 spreading out you allow things to land between you, plus
1211 it gives more frontage. 2 This is a psychology piece again. This 3 formation is meant to be the best formation to use when 4 confronting a crowd for the -- the -- those things I just 5 mentioned about the distances but also it's frontage. It 6 gives a psychologically to be a larger formation, a much 7 bigger formation. 8 So they spread out. That's all the 9 contact squad would do is they immediately spread out 10 from each other. Ideally the distance between the front 11 contact squad and the left and the right under ideal 12 circumstances would be about 20 feet and of course the 13 distance between left and right to the rear support would 14 be 20 feet. 15 In actual fact I have a feeling that tends 16 to tighten in a little bit. This is deceiving. Both 17 left and right are deceiving. They should have turned 18 the page sideways because the right cover is actually out 19 here. Probably this immediate left-hand of the right 20 cover is parallel to the right hand of the contact squad. 21 22 The same thing, the right -- the extreme 23 right-hand man on the left cover is lined up with the 24 left of the contact. Therefore you'd have twenty (20) - 25 - approximately 20 feet of coverage -- 20 feet of
1221 coverage, 20 feet of coverage. So really looking at it 2 from the front you have 60 feet of coverage so it's very 3 wide. 4 This is a later slide. We finally stopped 5 calling the rear the arrest squad because it became very 6 confusing. It's called the support squad because it does 7 -- it does a lot of things. It does rescue. It carries 8 some other equipment in support. However, arrests do 9 most often come from the rear but any squad is an arrest 10 squad. 11 This is now the way it is today. You 12 would have gas with you, gas gun with you, an Arwen with 13 you. 14 Q: And what's a gas gun and an Arwen? 15 A: You would have -- you'd have two (2) 16 different types of CS gas. You'd have muzzle dispersion 17 which is a talcum powder that you -- the Team Leader 18 which is the OIC, the officer in charge, at his 19 discretion he could call for muzzle dispersion to come 20 forward. 21 It's a talcum powder. It goes out in a 22 crowd and it would back them off using CS gas if they 23 were getting too close; very similar to using an OC 24 fogger. He also would have hot burning grenades of CS if 25 you wanted to launch into the crowd to move them further.
1231 Q: What's CS? 2 A: CS is a -- you really want me to 3 remember that terminology. It's tear gas. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: It -- the hot burning can only be 6 authorized by the Incident Commander Level 2. The muzzle 7 dispersion can be authorized by the OIC on ground. The 8 Arwen is the weapon that was invented during the coal 9 strikes in England. 10 It is a -- it fires a 40 mm polyethylene 11 bullet. So it is a -- it is a baton round and it can be 12 used for if there is a person out taunting you in the 13 front or a leader you want, take him down, the OIC can 14 have the Arwen team move forward, he can designate who he 15 wants and they can take him down with the Arwen. 16 At that night the only people who had 17 Arwens at that time was TRU team. Now ERT have Arwens 18 issued to them. So I did not have a gas mask, I did not 19 have an Arwen so I was with George and I actually lined 20 myself up here more with the -- I was slightly forward 21 with the two (2) team leaders from left and right cover 22 which of course would also move the support squad up. 23 Q: And perhaps what you could do there's 24 a -- 25 A: And that support squad is reversed.
1241 Somebody's -- that's if you're being attacked from the 2 rear. The leaders do not do that unless there's a rear 3 attack. They are following just like everybody else if 4 you're moving forward. Sorry? 5 Q: And perhaps what we could do is -- 6 there should be a copy of this -- of the box formation 7 and the cordon formation. And just for the purposes of 8 illustration, Commissioner, I wonder, Mr. Lacroix, if you 9 could just on the -- do you have a Cordon formation? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. If you could, drawing in 12 notionally what it appeared in theory on the evening -- 13 in 1995 -- in September 1995 when you were deployed? 14 So strike out what wasn't there -- 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: -- and draw in what was there. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: And of course the support squad on 21 that night did not have eight (8), they only had six (6) 22 so I'll take those out. 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: But they do not normally lead. 25
1251 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And -- 4 A: Do you want me on this one (1) too or 5 not? 6 Q: And on the box formation if you could 7 draw where you and your 2IC, your second in command was 8 George Hebblethwaite? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Where you and Mr. Hebblethwaite were? 11 A: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And what we'll do at lunch is make 16 copies of these documents for My Friends. But I would 17 ask that the box formation and cordon information 18 drawings as corrected by Mr. Lacroix be marked the next 19 exhibit collectively. And -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1454, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1454: Diagram of OPP Box Formation 23 marked by witness Mr. Wade 24 Lacroix, May 08, 2006. 25
1261 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps we could 2 have -- it might be actually easier. We'll do the box 3 formation P-1454 and the Cordon formation the next 4 exhibit, P-1455. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1455: Diagram of OPP Cordon 8 Formation marked by witness 9 Mr. Wade Lacroix, May 08, 10 2006. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And on the cordon formation of P- 14 1455, on the evening of September the 6th, there were 15 some additional officers involved, is that correct? 16 A: Yes. There was an additional support 17 squad following up behind. 18 Q: And so -- and do you recall today how 19 many officers were in the additional support squad? 20 A: My recollection was eight (8). 21 Q: And perhaps you could just note that 22 there was an additional support squad and composed of 23 eight (8) officers? 24 A: Okay. 25
1271 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Thank you. And in -- in effect, this 4 -- the actual -- the drawing that we used for 5 convenience, P-1455, the cordon formation, in effect, has 6 everybody turned around because, as you put it, it's 7 drawn as a -- an attack from the rear so the support 8 squad became the contact squad in this drawing? 9 A: Yeah. That's what happens if there's 10 an attack from the rear. 11 Q: And -- but for our purposes, the -- 12 the -- on the evening of September the 6th, there were 13 only six (6) officers in the first support squad so that 14 the two (2) -- the team leader and the assistant team 15 leader were part of the six (6)? 16 A: Yeah, they were embedded, I would 17 think. 18 Q: And you've made that change on 19 Exhibit P-1455? 20 A: I crossed them out. 21 Q: And then -- and the arrows on -- the 22 little squares were to be pointed towards the top of the 23 page and I wonder if you might just put an arrow towards 24 the top of the page to show the direction -- oh, you've 25 done that; thank you very much.
1281 Now, in the summer of 1995, the -- when 2 did you learn, if you can recall, that the Military were 3 going to be leaving Camp Ipperwash? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I believe it was after there was an 8 altercation on the parade square. 9 Q: And that was on July 29th? 10 A: It was my recollection it was July. 11 I know it was summer. 12 Q: And you can take it that the evidence 13 is that it was July 29th. And we don't have any notes -- 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: -- of yours from July 29th and the - 16 - do you recall today how you learned about the Military 17 leaving the Army Camp? 18 A: I was briefed about an altercation 19 that took place on the parade square -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- involving a bus and a military 22 police car. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Down near the drill hall, back end of 25 the parade square and the Military chose to withdraw from
1291 the base, I thought, right then. 2 I can't remember who briefed me. 3 Q: And what role -- what concerns, if 4 any, did you have with respect to the Military leaving 5 the Army Camp? 6 A: My concern then was I knew that we 7 were going to be now directly policing this issue. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Up 'til now, it was a military police 10 issue because they had, I think they went from a section 11 up to almost a platoon of Military Police at one (1) 12 point, stationed on the base proper and they were 13 policing it, you know, doing patrols out into the range 14 area as they were supposed to do, because there is 15 ordinance somewhere out there. 16 And there was quite a contingent of 17 military police and even though it was -- there was 18 friction, they were the buffer. They were dealing with 19 it and it was DND property. 20 So now I knew by them leaving, that same 21 protocol I referred to before, in OPP orders -- I think 22 it's in Part 10 orders, reference that protocol says when 23 there is no military police in the Province of Ontario at 24 a camp or station or base, the Ontario Provincial Police 25 will be the Force of jurisdiction.
1301 So, I -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- realized right then we were now 4 the force of jurisdiction. We would be dealing with it 5 directly. 6 Q: And did you have any other concerns 7 about -- with the Military leaving? 8 A: I had concerns, I had told you about 9 what the -- the ammunition dump that I knew was on site. 10 Q: And what, if anything, did you do 11 about that? 12 A: I mentioned to the company sergeant 13 major, and I believe the Military Police captain -- it 14 was either the Military Police captain or the -- or the 15 Base commander that I would hope that you're going to 16 make sure you take all ordinance with you. 17 So being that it was an infantry Base and 18 I had been infantry, it -- the 4th Battalion RCR were in 19 London -- or 1st Battalion, sorry, Reg Force were in 20 London, I knew they kept a lot of heavy ordinance there 21 so I -- I got him to admit or agree that he would ensure 22 the ordinance left with them. 23 Q: And prior to the -- the July 29th, 24 and you can take that as the date on which this happened, 25 had -- at this point in time in 1995 were you responsible
1311 for the Forest Detachment? 2 A: I belie -- say the date again? 3 Q: July 1995? 4 A: July '95 I believe it was Charlie 5 Bouwman was -- was in charge of north Lambton. 6 Q: Okay. And if information -- what 7 information, if any, did you have with respect to the 8 relationship between the occupiers of the range area and 9 the Military, just preceding July 1995? 10 A: I remember speaking to the company 11 sergeant major, Fred White, about the relationship 12 becoming strained, that he himself had always had a good 13 relationship with the occupiers, going out -- and he 14 could go sit at their campfire and talk to them. But he 15 was finding that his range patrols, when they were going 16 down the back roads now, if they met a car of occupiers 17 they would not back up or yield the way, so his officers 18 would have to back out. 19 He -- there was more occurrences of 20 gunfire being heard back in the woods behind the -- the 21 Camp, like back when the makeshift occupation was out 22 along the ranges. There was reports that people were 23 becoming more antagonistic of the Military Police. 24 Q: So that there was more ten -- you had 25 been advised there was more tension?
1321 A: Yeah. He could just feel that -- I 2 remember having a coffee with him, he was telling me that 3 he thought that it was getting tenser. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And just more, kind of, bristly, I 6 guess you'd call it or... 7 Q: Okay. And what information, if any, 8 did you receive during the summer of 1995 about 9 individuals attending at the Army Camp who were not part 10 of Kettle or Stony Point First Nation? 11 A: Yeah, there was. I recollect some 12 intelligence that -- report that there was concern about 13 Warrior Society -- I'm not sure in what context because 14 there's different types of warrior societies and 15 different types of warriors, so that supposedly warriors 16 from other -- other First Nations communities were 17 gravitating to the area and were on the Base. 18 Q: And you indicated that there were 19 different types of warrior societies; that was your 20 understanding back in 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 23 what your understanding of the different types of 24 warriors societies were back in 1995? 25 A: I had a First Nation fellow explain
1331 to me that every, you know, tribe or every clan would 2 have warriors, you know, in the traditional sense and 3 that -- 4 Q: And -- and then can you tell us what 5 you understood the traditional sense to be? 6 A: I -- I was told that the warriors 7 were above reproach, that they, you know, did not drink, 8 you know, that kind of thing. They didn't -- they would 9 take care of the people first, you know, that 10 historically they would be the ones that would go on a 11 hunt; they would be the ones that would bring back food, 12 they would share it with the elderly, with the sick. 13 They were basically above reproach; that 14 they were, I believe, elected by, you know, by the Band, 15 by the Elders, that the people had respect of them and 16 that was what a warrior was. 17 Q: And then -- 18 A: Then -- and I was aware, from being 19 at Six Nations and -- and Akwesasne and being in Oneida, 20 that there were different warrior societies, like that 21 each -- or not every community but different communities 22 had warrior societies. 23 I was also aware of a group when I was -- 24 sorry -- 25 Q: Okay. And the warrior societies that
1341 you're referring to are the traditional warrior 2 societies? 3 A: Yes, that there traditional societies 4 that -- 5 Q: And these people, as part of their -- 6 as part of their tradition, were help to police and 7 defend the community? Had you been told about that? 8 A: Yes, we were briefed on that in -- at 9 Akwesasne, that they were more of a peacekeeper type, 10 they were more -- that they were the traditional law 11 enforcement agency, so to speak. They were -- they would 12 police. 13 And so we worked with them at Akwesasne. 14 Like they -- they were looked upon as peacekeepers. 15 However, there was also this group that was referred to 16 called 'Warriors', that I understood not be elected by 17 Band Chief and Council, and were not necessarily 18 recognized by the -- even Traditional Elders. 19 So there was this third group that called 20 themselves Warriors, and they seemed to be of a more 21 criminal element. The ones that we were hearing about 22 seemed to be of a third ladder. And that was our 23 concern. 24 Q: And the -- so that you had -- you 25 were concerned about -- you had been advised that they
1351 were not the traditional warriors appointed by -- working 2 with the Elders or the Band Council, but warriors who 3 were not part of the traditional warrior society. At 4 least that was your understanding. 5 A: My concern was that they were -- yes, 6 that these were more of opportunists, they didn't really 7 represent either Kettle or Stoney Point. And I had heard 8 they were coming from Reserves from out of the area. So 9 that was the concern. 10 They weren't part of this land claim. 11 They weren't from this community. 12 Q: And what, if any, information did you 13 receive from CSIS during the summer of 1995? 14 A: I -- I have a vague recollection of a 15 rather strange visit from a person who must have 16 identified himself to me from the CSIS office in Windsor, 17 and his name was Rocky. 18 And he came to see me and proceeded to 19 tell me that there were weapons on the Base and was I 20 aware of that. And I said, Well, there's been 21 unsubstantiated intelligence of it, there's been shots 22 heard, but nothing seen. 23 And he proceeded to tell me that they were 24 watching it and this was a great concern to them. 25 Q: And this was the one -- the -- the
1361 person Rocky came once, and did you see him again? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you do anything about this? 4 A: I -- I'm sure I would have passed it 5 up the line to at least Inspector Carson, that I had a 6 strange visit by CSIS and this is what they had to say. 7 I would pass all intelligence into either 8 -- well either Mark Wright or the Incident Commander John 9 Carson. 10 Q: And after the Military left the Army 11 Camp, what knowledge, if any, did you have as to the 12 position of the Council of Kettle and Stony Point First 13 Nation with respect to the occupation of the built-up 14 area of the Army Camp? 15 A: My understanding was that this 16 occupation was not sanctioned, if I could use that word, 17 by the elected Band Chief and Council of Kettle and Stony 18 Point. 19 Q: And I understand that -- or -- John 20 Carson testified that on July 31st, 1995, at 21 approximately 11:50, that he received a telephone call 22 from you and was advised by you that you had met with 23 Marcel Beaubien and Beaubien was supportive of police 24 action. 25 Do you recall a telephone conversation on
1371 July 31st, 1995 with Inspector Carson? 2 A: I do not recall that specific -- July 3 31st? 4 Q: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: July 31st? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Of '94? 11 Q: Of '95. 12 A: '95, sorry I jumped to the wrong one, 13 too many notebooks, and I don't need these to see. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: July...? 18 Q: 31, 1995. 19 A: Still not there, I don't know where 20 it's gone. I keep skipping over it. Try one (1) more 21 time: 22 "8:00 on duty. Meet Lyle Johnson, 23 Walpole Island re ongoing situation 24 Walpole Island. Meet Officer 25 Stonefish."
1381 I have no -- no note of receiving a phone 2 call from Marcel Beaubien. 3 Q: Or meeting with Marcel Beaubien? 4 A: No meeting with him, no. 5 Q: All right. Do you have a note of a 6 call -- conversation -- call from John Carson? 7 A: No. 8 Q: But -- 9 A: This is a Monday. 31st July, '95, 10 Monday, yeah? 11 Q: I believe it was a Monday. 12 A: As I say, I would run into Marcel 13 Beaubien at the restaurant, or at Tim Horton's, but I 14 don't remember and I have no note of it. 15 Q: And -- but you're not saying that you 16 didn't have a call with John Carson, you just don't 17 recall it? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: Now, I understand that there was a 20 meeting, and if you go to Tab 9, Exhibit P-1452, at page 21 8 of your notes there's a note for August the 11th, 1995. 22 A: Did you say -- 23 Q: Perhaps this would be a good time to 24 stop for lunch. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would.
1391 Did you say P-1452? I think it's 1448. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, P-1448. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps this would be 5 a good time to break for lunch? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 We'll break for lunch now. 8 THE WITNESS: P-1448. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 10 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 11 12 --- Upon adjourning at 1:02 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 2:04 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed, please be seated. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 18 Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 afternoon. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Now just before the lunch break, Mr. 24 Lacroix, we were talking about -- about to turn to your 25 notes, it's Tab 9, page 8, August 11, 1995.
1401 And on August 11th, 1995 we understand and 2 we've heard evidence that there was a meeting on -- with 3 Marcel Beaubien between yourself, Inspector Carson, 4 Superintendent Parkin and Inspector Linton. 5 And what do you recall of that meeting, if 6 anything, apart from what's in your notes? 7 A: Very little, other than what it says 8 we discussed. 9 Q: And do you recall today how the 10 meeting came about? 11 A: I -- I don't recall how the Ops 12 Superintendent ended up -- I -- I don't recall if there 13 was a request for the meeting made directly to me, or did 14 it go directly to Region. I can't recall. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: I -- I can't recall if the request 17 for the meeting came directly to me at the Detachment or 18 if it went to Region for requesting this meeting. 19 Q: And the -- Superintendent Parkin 20 testified that he received a call from you advising that 21 there was going to be a meeting with Mr. Beaubien. And 22 does that assist your recollection? 23 A: If that's the case, then I would have 24 received a call at the Detachment requesting a meeting re 25 these issues.
1411 Q: And -- 2 A: And where was it at? Was it at the - 3 - okay, so if it was at Petrolia Detachment -- on duty 4 Detachment commander, it looks like it was at my 5 Detachment, I would have notified Region that there was a 6 request for a meeting on these issues. 7 Q: And "Region" was the -- 8 A: In London. 9 Q: In London? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in Region the person responsible 12 would have been Superintendent Parkin? 13 A: Well the issues were of an 14 operational matter, it was all around Ipperwash, 15 Ipperwash Beach, and reorg, that would be the 16 reorganization of the different Detachments, which also 17 would be fall on the Ops side. So Superintendent Tony 18 Parkin was the Ops Superintendent. 19 Q: Okay. And what you're referring to 20 is page 9 of your notes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Your notes actually -- perhaps you 23 could just read your note starting at page 8, 09:00? 24 A: So: 25 "Meet with Superintendent Parkin,
1421 Inspector Carson, Inspector Linton re 2 Ipperwash and right sizing." 3 I can explain that in a minute. 4 "Meet Marcel Beaubien at 10:00, the MPP 5 of Lambton re Ipperwash, West Ipperwash 6 Beach, Walpole and reorg." 7 Q: And the meeting was -- 8 A: Completed at 11:00, so it was about a 9 one (1) hour meeting. 10 Q: And so there was a pre-meeting with 11 Superintendent Parkin, Inspectors Carson and Linton. And 12 do you have any independent recollection of that meeting? 13 A: No, I don't, other than just by rank 14 structure. The superintendent would have carried the 15 meeting, the two (2) inspectors would have filled in. I 16 would have been basically the -- the local guy, but I'm 17 sure I would have added to the discussion but it would 18 have been led by Superintendent Tony Parkin. 19 Q: And do you recall anything that 20 happened at the meeting or -- other than re Ipperwash and 21 right sizing? 22 A: No, nothing. The main part I 23 probably would have spoke to was the right sizing, which 24 is also reorg -- 25 Q: Okay.
1431 A: -- because I was the one that was 2 doing the reorganization within the county, and so I 3 probably would have described that piece. 4 Q: And what is right sizing? 5 A: It was a nice word for downsizing. 6 And it was how those staff sergeants, when they retired, 7 wouldn't be replaced, and I would simply take them over. 8 However, the front line wouldn't suffer; I would do more 9 with less, meaning administratively. 10 Q: So that this was part of the 11 reorganization to change Detachments into sub-detachments 12 or satellite offices of, in this case, Petrolia. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And where there may have been staff 15 sergeants before the -- the satellite offices were going 16 to be headed by sergeants and report to you as the Staff 17 Sergeant in Petrolia? 18 A: Yes. It was a cost saving measure. 19 And it was that the Detachments would stay where they 20 are, they would be called satellites, but one (1) 21 Detachment would be called the Admin Centre. All the 22 admin would flow there and -- 23 Q: And that was Petrolia and -- 24 A: Petrolia was chosen. 25 Q: And you were the staff sergeant in
1441 charge of Petrolia? 2 A: Yeah. And the idea of right sizing, 3 that they were still trying to figure out, was how many 4 people should be under one (1) of those clusters, and it 5 was -- I think in and around sixty (60). So that's why 6 it was also called right sizing. 7 What was the right component makeup? So I 8 was -- I probably described that part. 9 But the actual Ipperwash part, of course 10 John Carson would be the Incident Commander, so I would 11 think that the majority of the conversation about it 12 would be him. 13 Q: Okay. And at this point of time, in 14 1995, the Detachment was right across the street from Mr. 15 Beaubien's constituency office? 16 A: He was across the street and just up 17 a few blocks to the north. 18 Q: Okay. So it wasn't directly across 19 the street, it was across the street and up a bit? 20 A: Yes, just up but you could -- I mean, 21 you could see the two (2) doors from each other. 22 Q: Okay. So from the Detachment you 23 could see his office and vice versa? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what, if anything, do you recall
1451 about the meeting with Mr. Beaubien? 2 A: I -- I took it it was more of a 3 bringing the new MPP up to speed on the issues in his -- 4 in, you know, in his area, on policing -- the main 5 policing issues that were ongoing in -- in his area, 6 which was Lambton County. 7 Q: And had the -- you had discussions 8 with Mr. Beaubien, prior to this meeting, about concerns 9 raised to him about the issue at West Ipperwash Beach and 10 -- by his constituents; do you recall that? 11 A: Yes, yes, I do. I -- I remember he 12 called me and said that he had concerned constituents. 13 And I -- I think he referred to who they were but it was 14 the residents of that area, of West Ipperwash Beach, that 15 they had expressed concerns to him and I think the Mayor 16 of Bosanquet expressed concerns to him about, you know, 17 policing or the lack thereof, and basically called and 18 expressed those concerns to me. 19 And there was a couple of conversations, I 20 think these are the ones. And it started out, the very 21 first one, by me explaining to him we were very aware of 22 it. And I explained to him, as I'd said earlier, about 23 our police officers, how we explained to the police 24 officers, yes, there's a Trespass Act and, yes, normally 25 that would apply. However, in this case it doesn't apply
1461 and this is why it doesn't apply. 2 I remember taking him through some of the 3 issues that it's not as easy as just going in and laying 4 trespass charges. So I remember our, probably first 5 discussion, was describing to him about Colour of Right 6 and it's a big issue and it's already in the courts, it's 7 a civil matter and it's already at civil court, however, 8 I'm aware of it and I'm doing all I can by putting 9 additional patrols in the area. It's not that we're not 10 aware of it, we are aware of it. 11 Q: This was a discussion you believe 12 took place before the meeting of August 11th? 13 A: Yes. I -- I believe that before this 14 meeting, I'd already had a previous discussion, you're 15 right, on the telephone to him, explaining him about the 16 complexities of that issue. 17 Q: And do you have any recollection 18 today of the actual meeting on August the 11th? 19 A: I just vaguely remember that it 20 actually took place at his office, not the Detachment. 21 Tony Parkin led out, Inspector Carson, I don't think 22 Inspector Linton said much and then I spoke about the 23 local community issues. 24 Q: Being the -- 25 A: Being the right sizing and how it'll
1471 end up looking. 2 Q: Okay. And the -- at this point in 3 time, in August of 1995, was Petrolia now a contract -- 4 the OPP, the contract police force in Petrolia? 5 A: It's -- it's right around here. It's 6 just either just happened or it's about to happen. It's 7 during this summer that policing -- contract policing are 8 finalizing the contract. 9 Q: And at Tab 10 of the book in front of 10 you is a copy of Exhibit P-418, it's Inquiry Document 11 1012239. And prior to getting ready for your appearance 12 at the Inquiry, had you seen this document before? 13 And if you go in three (3) pages, there's 14 a letter dated August 14, 1995 from Mr. Beaubien 15 addressed to the Honourable Charles Harnick. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And did you -- in 1995 did you see 18 this letter? 19 A: I do not recall seeing this letter. 20 Q: And no copy is shown as having been 21 sent to you. And have you had the opportunity to review 22 this letter? 23 A: No. Do you want -- 24 Q: And could you just take a look at it? 25
1481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. I now, after reading this, 4 would say I can now, in further clarity, talk about the 5 way the meeting went on August the 11th. I can see it 6 coming through here. 7 Q: Okay. So does this letter, Exhibit 8 P-418, Inquiry Document 1012239, assist your -- your 9 recollection? 10 A: Yes, it does, of -- of the topics it 11 -- they're generally what I just spoke to a minute ago. 12 I remember -- do you want me to go through -- 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: Which way, paragraph by paragraph 15 or...? 16 Q: Sure. Whatever is best that helps 17 you with your recollection of the meeting. 18 A: So it's true, it says: 19 "They were here to discuss the issues 20 at Ipperwash Provincial Park, West 21 Ipperwash Property Owners' Association. 22 That's true, but I -- I believe that he 23 had called because those were his constituents, all 24 raising several different concerns. 25 We came to try to explain those concerns,
1491 like where they were with the Courts and where they were, 2 you know, legally. 3 And he says: 4 "We are not concerned with the takeover 5 of Camp Ipperwash army camp as it is a 6 federal matter." 7 I mean, obviously, that was said that it's 8 DND property. It had been a First Nations property and 9 taken by the DND during the Second World War. So, if 10 anything, it was federally mandated, you know, taken by a 11 federal mandate and it would eventually go back to being, 12 like, First Nations. 13 So it'll -- it's a federal matter and we 14 said that's clearly for them to handle. And I think at 15 this time -- do we have still a military police in there? 16 Q: No. 17 A: No. 18 "What does concern us is Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park, a campground owned and 20 operated by Ministry of Natural 21 Resources. The OPP are providing 22 twenty-four (24) protection." 23 I think all we told him was we were aware 24 of, you know, the possibility of it being taken, so we've 25 got an additional patrol car in the area.
1501 I'm just trying to remember what we had at 2 that time. 3 "I am sure that you are aware 4 additional police protection has been 5 provided." 6 So we're there to say, Look, we are taking 7 this serious. That was the part I was talking about. 8 We've beefed up patrols, you know. We're down there, 9 we're, you know, present in the community. 10 "With regard to West Ipperwash Property 11 Owners' Association I'm enclosing a 12 copy of writ." 13 He had that, I guess. 14 The residents have, indeed, you know, 15 going on about -- about their taxes. 16 "The representatives of the OPP, myself, 17 reached the following consensus." 18 Q: Did you reach a consensus? 19 A: I think that he was adamant about, 20 you know, Ipperwash camp ground, but there's nothing 21 about title on it, is there? 22 And our understanding at the time was, No, 23 because going back to my meeting with Les Kobayashi, 24 there was one there earlier, MNR position of the day was 25 they had clear title. So, I believe we said that to him,
1511 Yes, we don't think there's an issue like the army camp, 2 it's owned and there's clear title. 3 Then he did hear us, on number 2, he's 4 heard us when we said to him, But do you know what, 5 enforcement is -- it's a short term solution. This is, 6 again, the domestic idea, this is really over land, it's 7 a civil matter, even if we went in, it's a very short 8 term solution. 9 Q: And referring to what, the Park? 10 A: That we -- that even if we enforced, 11 I mean, you know, or if we put an extra patrol car or two 12 (2), for how long? It was a short term solution to be 13 doing it that way. 14 Q: But what -- do you recall what was 15 being referred to at this point in time in the 16 conversation; West Ipperwash, the army camp or the 17 Provincial Park? 18 A: Well basic -- that was all one (1) 19 patrol zone still. So I had an additional car in 20 Bosanquet Township. So we had shifted the cars. I think 21 we had anywhere from ten (10) to twelve (12) cars. 22 Basically, it became a priority zone. So 23 the sergeants were told to have an additional car always 24 up in that area. 25 Q: And you were aware that at this point
1521 in time the ERT team members had been deployed to this 2 area? 3 A: This is August 14th, that's right. I 4 was -- I -- I was remotely aware, now that you remind me, 5 yes, ERT of 1 District, I take it, is up there also 6 helping out on patrols. 7 I'm going back to when I had already 8 instituted an additional patrol. 9 Q: You had -- had additional patrols in 10 that -- the ERT team -- 11 A: So that's right. ERT does come up 12 late in that summer. But what I'm saying he did here, so 13 this is saying that we've got consensus, the MPP and the 14 police want managers. 15 So he's saying he's now heard us, Yeah, 16 enforcement's a short term solution, because how long can 17 you keep an ERT team there and how long can you double up 18 patrols? 19 So then the next consensus: 20 Ministers involved have to give the OPP 21 clear guidelines for law enforcement." 22 It doesn't look like he agreed with what 23 we had to say, because he's obviously saying somebody has 24 to tell the OPP after we describe that, like on West 25 Ipperwash beach, trespass does not apply because it's a
1531 land claim, because it's in the civil courts and there's 2 a colour of right issue. 3 Q: And did you -- do you recall agreeing 4 that the Ministries have to give the OPP clear -- 5 A: No, that -- that's what I'm saying. 6 It seems like he heard us on number 2, but then on number 7 3 he's saying somebody's got to give us clear direction. 8 But we were explaining that it's not 9 clear, because it's in the courts. There's a Colour of 10 Right issue. 11 Q: So you don't agree that -- 12 A: We had consensus, obviously. I don't 13 think we had consensus. But then he hears us when we say 14 to him, the long term solution is a negotiated settlement 15 and it's going to take somebody, Federal, Provincial, 16 really to sit down and negotiate this because it's a land 17 claim issue. 18 So I would have -- I agree that that's 19 what I think we discussed with him is we discussed with 20 him 2 and 4 and we had consensus. And I think we did 21 agree because they were telling us that Ipperwash was 22 free and clear, they had good title. 23 So I guess there was consensus. I don't 24 agree with Number 3. 25 Q: Okay. And --
1541 A: And then: 2 "However we need to see a clear stand 3 on what Provincial ownership of land 4 means and that laws of Province will be 5 upheld. This -- this needs to be made 6 very clear without delay." 7 Very clear to who? To us? 8 Q: No, I think he's writing the Attorney 9 General. 10 Do you recall discussing -- this remember 11 is a letter by Mr. Beaubien to the Attorney General. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: And I'm just asking you to use it to 14 -- to assist your recollection. 15 A: Yeah and I do recollect those four 16 (4) points as being topics. 17 Q: Okay. Anything else? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And I understand that -- did you play 20 any role in the undercover camping operation at Ipperwash 21 Provincial Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And I understand that you went on 24 annual leave on August the 21st? 25 A: Yes. I believe I went to Nova Scotia
1551 for the end of the summer. 2 Q: And that appears at page 10 of your 3 notes at Tab 9, Exhibit P-1448. It's in Tab -- go to Tab 4 9. 5 A: Oop, Tab 9 you said. Sorry. 6 Q: We got these notes in two (2) 7 different groups so that's why I keep going back and 8 forth. 9 A: Okay. Tab 9 top of page -- 10 Q: Page 10. Tab 9, page 10. 11 A: Okay. All right. Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I'm not sure but it looks like a 16 piece of it's clipped there. 21st of August. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes, 21st of August, 1st of September 21 on annual leave. And of course, the weekend off when I 22 come home, 2nd and 3rd off on weekly rest days and the 23 4th of September I'm off on the Labour Day stat. 24 Q: Okay. So that from August 21st to 25 September the 4th, you were off and you only returned to
1561 duty on September 5th, 1995? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in the summer of 19 -- at Tab 11 4 there's a copy of Exhibit P-424 which was marked as 5 Project Maple. 6 Did you receive a copy of Project Maple in 7 September of 1995? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And prior to getting ready for your 10 appearance at the Inquiry, had you seen a copy of Project 11 Maple? 12 A: First time I saw this cover page was 13 at my interview for the Commission. 14 Q: In -- with Commission Counsel? 15 A: Commission Counsel. 16 Q: In readiness to get for your 17 appearance? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what role if any did you play 20 with respect to the preparation of Project Maple? 21 A: None. 22 Q: And when you returned from vacation 23 on September the 1st and you were off September 2nd, 3rd 24 and 4th, how did you learn of the occupation of the 25 Provincial Park?
1571 A: I was -- it was the -- the Monday the 2 stat, the 4th, I was called at home I believe by 3 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright -- 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: -- informing me that there had been 6 an occupation at the Ipperwash Provincial Park, and that 7 basically they were taking all of my zone cars to the 8 area except for the Town of Petrolia car because of 9 course it would be under contract and the Walpole Island 10 car because it was under protocol to stay at Walpole 11 Island. 12 So basically I'd lost all the cars on duty 13 and that they were calling in additional people from home 14 to pick up those duties. That's how I first -- 15 Q: So when -- when you were told that 16 you were losing your zone cars, that means the cars that 17 were on duty at the time? 18 A: Yes, all the cars in south Lambton 19 that would be out working the county -- south county. 20 Q: And then additional officers were 21 being called in to cover Petrolia? 22 A: Yeah, they replaced the cars that 23 were taken. 24 Q: And what, if anything, did you do on 25 the evening of September 4th after you received the call
1581 from Mark Wright? 2 A: Nothing other than I remember a 3 further discussion with him. He described the way the 4 occupation or the takeover happened. He was concerned 5 about a flare. 6 Q: And this was part of the same call? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And tell us everything you can 9 remember of your discussion with Sergeant Wright? 10 A: He told me, Oh, by the way one (1) of 11 your cruisers has been damaged. He said that at the time 12 that there was a takeover a rear windshield was busted 13 out in one (1) of the -- one (1) of the cars because it 14 was 1 District ERT were up there, so I believe it was one 15 (1) of my cars so he's informing me that you've got a 16 damaged car. 17 And then he said during the -- the 18 takeover there was a flare thrown at one (1) of our 19 officers and he knew that I was ex-TRU and ex-Military so 20 he asked me what -- how much of a hazard or what threat I 21 thought that would be. So we had a discussion. 22 I tried to get him to describe, you know, 23 what it looked like because of course it could be a 24 Military flare, it could be a marine flare or a highway 25 flare. So I remember asking questions about if it, you
1591 know, looked like a grenade with a pin. Of course that 2 would be a Military-type flare which would be quite 3 large. 4 Or if it was a marine flare they also can 5 -- you know you can actually -- they shoot a ball whereas 6 a highway flare is just a very small amount of, you know, 7 burnable material. 8 A Military flare -- flare can actually 9 have white phosphorus. White phosphorus is a very, very, 10 very hazard -- big hazard. 11 Q: And why is that? 12 A: White phosphorous, it doesn't 13 extinguish with water. It actually expedites the 14 reaction. You have to smother it and it will stick to 15 wet skin and it'll just keep burning. 16 So I was trying to ascertain from him what 17 he -- what he -- he wanted to ascertain from me how much 18 of a threat I thought it was. I was trying to ascertain 19 from him what it looked like to try to make a 20 determination how big the threat was. So I do remember 21 that -- that discussion. 22 Q: Okay. And anything else? 23 A: No, that's it. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1601 Q: And then after the phone call with 2 Sergeant Wright of that evening did -- did you do 3 anything else with respect to the occupation? 4 A: I might have checked up to make sure 5 that -- before going to bed that I had cars on duty, but 6 no I did not call back to him or have any further 7 discussion about Ipperwash. 8 Q: Okay. And then on September the 5th 9 the -- you received a call from Marcel Beaubien? 10 A: Yeah. Apparently. I -- I haven't 11 got it noted in my notebook. 12 Q: And you also -- do you have any 13 recollection, independent recollection, of the call that 14 you had with Marcel Beaubien? 15 A: The only recollection I have is that 16 he also -- he must have been aware that the Park had been 17 occupied, and basically called looking for information as 18 to how or why, you know just and -- 19 Q: And -- 20 A: -- was I aware, I guess. 21 Q: And -- but other than that you have 22 no recollection? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Now, I would ask you to turn to Tab 25 13. And at Tab 13 it's an extract from Exhibit P-444A,
1611 Tab 4. And this is a transcript of a telephone 2 conversation between you and John Carson at 8:20 plus 3 seven (7) minutes, I guess, on the morning of September 4 the 5th, 1995. 5 And I understand that you've listened to 6 the telephone call at some point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you -- your voice appeared on the 9 recording? 10 A: Yes, I was -- yeah, it -- 11 Q: Pardon? 12 A: It was me, yes. 13 Q: And you were speaking to John Carson? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- you indicate on this 16 transcript where it says, "male", it's you, but you 17 indicate: 18 "Ah, I just received a phone call from 19 the MPP, quite irate, not at us. 20 CARSON: Right. 21 LACROIX: He's going to call here. 22 CARSON: You're being recorded by the 23 way. We're on recorded lines here." 24 You say, "Okay." 25 Was -- did you -- were you -- have any
1621 concern that the lines were recorded? 2 A: Not at that time. 3 Q: Okay. And when you say "not at that 4 time", what do you mean by that? 5 A: I mean, we were just -- usually 6 there's one (1) line recorded, so when you're calling in 7 for official conversation and this was an official 8 conversation. 9 You know, if I call and I wanted to talk 10 about buying a new house or something, I guess, I'd be 11 concerned that I was on a taped line then. 12 Q: But usually you -- it was your 13 understanding there was one (1) -- 14 A: Yeah, it was -- 15 Q: -- usually -- 16 A: Normally -- normally the taped line, 17 when you're speaking to the Incident Commander, giving 18 him information, you realize that that's all taped and 19 the main line to him. 20 So I had no concern that I was being 21 taped. 22 Q: And then on page 2, its: 23 "LACROIX: He wants me to brief him. 24 He's going to call the Premier and say 25 this is ridiculous.
1631 CARSON: Yes. 2 [You] And I want something done. 3 CARSON: Well, okay. And so that you 4 know, we have four (4) ERT teams; two 5 (2) were on the ground all night and 6 two (2) new ones are in there now. 7 LACROIX: Okay. 8 CARSON: We're just trying to contain 9 it. 10 LACROIX: Okay. 11 CARSON: And our objective here is to 12 contain and negotiate a peaceful 13 resolution with this, whatever that may 14 be." 15 And he goes on, Mr. Car -- Inspector 16 Carson says: 17 "And we have adequate resources at this 18 time to address all public concerns." 19 And then farther down: 20 "And no one in the community is in any 21 danger of anything in our estimates -- 22 estimation and we will maintain that 23 level of service as long as it is 24 required." 25 And then down the page, you say:
1641 "Ah, we'll address -- we're going for 2 an injunction? 3 CARSON: Yes. Natural resources are 4 addressing that as we speak. 5 LACROIX: Okay. Who's the ERT -- 6 who's the ERT guy? Who's the ERT 7 commander? 8 CARSON: Well, we've got 1, 2, 3 and 6 9 here. And 3 and 6 are on the ground 10 now. 1 and 2 are just coming back from 11 debriefing after the night's over. 12 LACROIX: The only reason I'm asking 13 is, if it's a large formation I was -- 14 I'm one of the ones, I'm just wondering 15 who you're going -- got doing that. 16 CARSON: I'm sorry? 17 LACROIX: For a large formation of 18 ERT, there's supposed to be a staff 19 sergeant. I'm just wondering if -- 20 CARSON: Well at this point -- 21 LACROIX: We'll get -- well, get them 22 on standby. 23 CARSON: No, they are here. 24 LACROIX: No, I mean -- and I mean, 25 what are you going to do with that. I
1651 mean, the only reason I'm asking is I'm 2 -- I just wanted to know. 3 CARSON: You mean a crowd control 4 operation? 5 LACROIX: Yeah. 6 CARSON: Well, we don't intend to go 7 into that mode." 8 Now, the call that you had with Mr. 9 Beaubien, do you recall him saying to you as you indicate 10 in page 2, he's going to call the Premier and say that 11 this is ridiculous? 12 A: I mean, I was passing on pretty much 13 what was said to me. Now, if he said -- he may have said 14 I'm going to call the Premier's office. 15 I just passed on what -- I'd be passing on 16 what was said. 17 Q: Okay. And when Mr. Beaubien spoke of 18 the Premier, had you met the Premier, Mr. Harris, at this 19 time? 20 A: Never met the Premier. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: I've never met the Premier. 23 Q: And in September 1995, had you met 24 the Attorney General? 25 A: No, sir.
1661 Q: Or the Solicitor General, Mr. 2 Runciman? 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: Or the Minister of Natural Resources 5 at the time, Mr. Hodgson? 6 A: Not at that time. I met him later. 7 Q: Later? 8 A: Yeah, I think they had a caucus in 9 the area, like, after this, quite a bit after this. 10 Q: And you met him in relation to -- 11 A: I ran into him at the hotel. 12 Q: Oh, just by -- ran into him at the -- 13 and what did -- when Mr. Beaubien said he was going to 14 call the Premier what if anything did you think about 15 that? 16 A: I thought it would be no different 17 than if I said I was going to call the Commissioner. I - 18 - I don't normally call the Commissioner directly, but if 19 I call the Commissioner's office, you know, that deals 20 with -- there's -- media relations is there. 21 I just passed on that he's going to call 22 the Comm -- the Premier's office so he's going to call 23 down and express his displeasure that I guess the Park 24 was taken. 25 Q: Okay. And --
1671 A: I -- I just thought John should know. 2 The only thing I thought was going to -- I'm sorry, you 3 said to me what did I think was going to happen? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: Well, in the OPP what ends up 6 happening is when there's an issue like this we get a 7 requirement to give briefing notes. We provide briefing 8 notes to the government but they go to headquarters then 9 they go across to Queen's Park. 10 So I -- I felt that I was giving him the 11 head's up. You're probably going to get a phone call 12 coming -- if he does call down to the Premier's office 13 the Premier's office is going to start asking questions, 14 you're going to get a requirement to produce a briefing 15 note back through, you know, if he hadn't already had to 16 produce a briefing note. 17 Q: But you didn't know -- that was the 18 thinking you were going through at the time? 19 A: I was letting him know because what's 20 going to happen, he's going to get a request for a full 21 briefing. 22 Q: And a request for a full briefing 23 note from who? 24 A: It usually comes up -- I would think 25 they would come up from the Solicitor General's office
1681 through the Commissioner of the OPP and down saying 2 produce a briefing note to give to the Minister because 3 it's going to come up at the House, right? So we have to 4 give a fax sheet. 5 Q: That's what happened in the past 6 that -- 7 A: Yeah. That's my -- that's my 8 experience is whenever there's a major issue there's a 9 requirement to produce a -- a briefing note. 10 Q: And you haven't seen them and I 11 haven't taken them through -- you but there's lots of 12 briefing notes in the summer of 1995 produced by the OPP? 13 A: Yes, agreed. 14 Q: Now, the -- you were asking him about 15 the ERT teams and about the formation? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what were you -- why were you 18 asking him about that? Why were you talking to him about 19 that? 20 A: There's -- I had -- I didn't know if 21 John knew -- like this new -- ERT was brand new in '94. 22 It didn't even exist before and then the CMU comes in. 23 Like '93/'94 ERT becomes an entity, then this CMU -- I 24 was on the first course that got trained, right, in the 25 fall of --
1691 Q: '94. 2 A: -- '94. I wasn't aware of John as an 3 Incident Commander knowing that if he amassed that many 4 ERT teams that technically he was supposed to have one 5 (1) of these CMU qualified staff so I was trying to alert 6 him that he may need one. 7 And then I was going to tell him did you 8 know who they are? There's four (4) in the -- in the 9 region. 10 But he was -- he was at first I don't 11 think understanding what -- what I was trying to tell 12 him. Maybe I wasn't articulating it very well. And at 13 the end I think he told me, Well, I'm not going there. 14 He didn't want to go to CMU and I said, Oh, and I dropped 15 it. I said, Okay. 16 Q: And then on the third page he asked 17 you -- suggests that it would be appropriate if you 18 could drive over and -- after you addressed the phone 19 calls because you know the plan as well as anybody and 20 because you were away you missed out the planning 21 exercise? 22 A: That would be Maple. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: That would be Maple. 25 Q: That would be -- yeah, Maple. And
1701 then he says: 2 "You have intimate knowledge of all, 3 you know, our '93 plans." 4 A: That would be the occupation of the 5 Army Camp. 6 Q: Of the Army Camp. And then the -- at 7 the bottom of the page he says: 8 "Two (2) up and two (2) down [talking 9 about the ERT teams]..." 10 And you -- at the bottom of the page, it's 11 attributed to you: 12 "We'll address the situation with Stan 13 to resolve. 14 CARSON: Yup, and I'm on the ground 15 here and I will be here." 16 And then you ask: 17 "How do you want him to -- him to call, 18 to call me or what?" 19 And: 20 "CARSON: I'd prefer that." 21 And that's referring I take it to Marcel 22 Beaubien? 23 A: Yeah, like I -- I've obviously 24 received a phone call from Marcel and he's not happy that 25 the Park's been occupied. So I call the Incident
1711 Commander to tell him that and then I ask him does he 2 want me to get back to him because I felt John was 3 briefing me with -- with information that was certainly 4 not classified top secret. 5 So I'm saying do you want me to call him 6 back or are you going to call him, and I believe he says, 7 No, no, you ahead and call him. 8 Q: And he says -- and this is page 12: 9 "Yeah. He knows you and, like, if he 10 wants information from me I'd be glad 11 to talk to him; that's not a problem. 12 But I would -- I would rather have some 13 idea of what he's looking for so we can 14 be prepared with that." 15 And then further down the page, you say: 16 "I guess he was up all last night and 17 he's already got several phone calls. 18 He called me and he just let me know 19 that he's calling the Premier." 20 And then it goes down: 21 "LACROIX: I guess he met with..." 22 It says "Wesser Bush" but I think it 23 should be: 24 "...West Ipperwash again on Saturday." 25 A: Yeah, I would think so.
1721 Q: And then at the top of the page you 2 say: 3 "So he wants to call and say look, what 4 -- we've got to do something." 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 LACROIX: It's now Provincial. So 7 anyway I'll call him back." 8 So as a result of this, did you call Mr. 9 Lacroix -- Mr. Beaubien back, Mr. Lacroix? 10 A: Yeah. I would have. I would have 11 called him back and -- 12 Q: Do you have any recollection of the 13 call back? 14 A: Yeah. My recollection is -- is that 15 -- just putting all these conversations together, is that 16 I would have called him and said okay, we've now called 17 in additional resources, you know, I would have almost 18 repeated what John said was that we have enough resources 19 here to handle whatever eventuality, is what I would have 20 told him. 21 But that we're still -- it's not, you 22 know, it's not an easy situation, it's complex, we're 23 taking it very, very seriously, sir, that's we've called 24 in, I don't know if I said four (4) ERT teams, but we've 25 called in additional resources; enough to handle any
1731 eventuality. 2 I would have passed on what John said that 3 there's -- there's no one in any danger. You know, 4 public safety is not issue right now and that would be 5 what the -- 6 Q: Okay. And then we'll get to it in a 7 moment. But you called back Inspector Carson in the 8 afternoon. But if you could turn back to your notes at 9 Tab 9, page 10. It indicates on September the 5th at 10 09:00: 11 "Received a briefing of events that 12 took place at Ipperwash Provincial Park 13 overnight by Sergeant Korosec." 14 And did you have a telephone call 15 conversation with Sergeant Korosec? 16 A: Just let me get to there. That was 17 in -- 18 Q: Tab 9. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Page 10. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: September 5th. 23 A: Yeah. I had a quick phone call with 24 Sergeant Korosec. 25 Q: And do you recall what he said to
1741 you? 2 A: He just would have brought -- all I 3 know is he would have told me the events overnight. 4 Whatever -- my recollection is something about cruisers 5 but that's -- 6 Q: And then your note says: 7 "Advised to come to Forest to receive a 8 briefing in case I was required as an 9 Incident Commander." 10 And I've read that correctly? 11 A: Yes. 12 "Advised to come to Forest to receive a 13 briefing in case I was required..." 14 That would be a Level 1 Incident 15 Commander, which would be like a logistics officer. 16 Q: And that was as a result of your call 17 with Mr. Carson? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then you do go to Forest, then 20 your note says: 21 "11:30 arrived at Forest. Briefed by 22 Sergeant Korosec, Mark Wright and 23 Inspector Carson." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you have any recollection
1751 today of what they told you? 2 A: The only event that I remember is 3 that three (3) more cruisers have been damaged by rocks. 4 Q: On the morning of -- on September 5th 5 -- I believe that you're getting that mixed up. 6 A: The next day -- the 4th is the night 7 I get called at home. The 5th is -- 8 Q: The 5th is Tuesday and the 6th is 9 Wednesday. 10 A: Okay. Then all I know is -- by this 11 is that they would have given me -- okay, wait a second, 12 4th -- this is 5th. 13 They would have -- this was a briefing on 14 how the occupation happened; how -- how the demonstrators 15 took over the Park and how we left. So this would have 16 been a briefing on the smashing of the one (1) car and 17 the flare. 18 Q: And then if I can ask you to turn to 19 Tab 15. Tab 15 is actually a copy of Exhibit P-1029. 20 It's Inquiry Document 3000824 which is identical to the 21 one that's in your book, but has a different number. 22 And these were notes of Marcel Beaubien of 23 -- and the middle notes, as I recall, refer to his 24 conversation with you. And does that assist you? 25 A: Yeah, I mean, like, from the
1761 conversation with John Carson, I mean, actually as he was 2 talking to me it was like almost giving me the status. 3 It was almost like this is what we've done, which is fine 4 to tell the member that because, obviously, it's 5 happened. 6 There's a -- there's a -- there's a point 7 of reference about secrecy, as it's not secret when the 8 sixty (60) people actually exist. 9 Once the people arrive in the community 10 and you can see them and there's -- 11 Q: It's not a secret anymore. 12 A: It's not a secret any more. So once 13 there's like forty (40) cruisers -- so anyway, I think 14 this middle piece would be what I would have told him, 15 that there's four (4) emergency response teams, up to 16 sixty (60) officers. 17 They're here, working two (2) shifts, 18 twenty-four (24) hours a day. There's no danger to 19 individuals and the MNR is going for a Court order or a 20 Court injunction. 21 I think that piece there I recognize. 22 None of the other stuff I recognize. 23 Q: Okay. Then you had a second call 24 that day at Tab 14 with John Carson at -- on September 25 5th, 16:24 hours plus seven (7) minutes, so it would be
1771 16:31 on September the 5th. And do you recall -- this is 2 a call from John Carson to you and did you listen to this 3 tape and recognize your voice on the tape, and that of 4 John Carson? 5 A: I... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I can't recall listening to this 10 tape. I... 11 Q: Well, we'll just -- 12 A: Let me have a look here. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Okay, I do remember this now. 17 Q: Okay, you remember it? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And if you start on the second page, 20 Carson is -- it says, Lottie, but it's -- we've corrected 21 it: "Is Waddie around, handy?" 22 And Waddie's you, the name you are called 23 by John Carson? 24 A: Yeah, that's my nickname. 25 Q: Waddie?
1781 A: Yes. 2 Q: And this is at page 186. And then 3 you say: 4 "LACROIX: Did you get a call or 5 anything from the Ministry side or... 6 CARSON: No. 7 LACROIX: Okay. But Marcel got brief 8 a half an hour ago. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 LACROIX: And he's got -- he's going 11 to get briefed again in five (5). 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 LACROIX: And this is not an Indian 14 issue but an MNR issue and a provincial 15 issue. 16 CARSON: Ah ha. 17 LACROIX: Harris is involved himself 18 and, ah, quite uptight about it. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 LACROIX: And the Ministry, I guess 21 the Solicitor General, I imagine, is to 22 do a press release momentarily, or 23 soon, saying law will be update -- 24 upheld no matter who is involved. 25 CARSON: Okay.
1791 LACROIX: So I would say that the 2 signal is that we're going to end up 3 [and it should be] evicting, [not the 4 victim] 5 CARSON: I would suspect." 6 A: I think so. 7 Q: And then: 8 "LACROIX: And he's going to call me 9 in the morning. [Then] 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 LACROIX: And tell me anything else 12 that happened. 13 CARSON: All right. 14 LACROIX: 'Cause he was talking to our 15 chief. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 LACROIX: Was impressed by the Chief." 18 Now, does that assist in your recollection 19 of your conversation with Mr. Beaubien? The conversation 20 -- did Mr. Beaubien tell you that he had got briefed a 21 half an hour ago? 22 A: Yes, I might -- I got this from 23 somewhere, I must have -- 24 Q: But the source of this information is 25 from your call with Mr. Beaubien.
1801 A: I believe it's when I called him to 2 tell him about the resources we had. 3 Q: And then he told you these things, 4 his concerns. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then you were passing them onto 7 Carson? 8 A: Yes. Again, he's the Incident 9 Commander, I felt anything -- 10 Q: But that's what you had agreed on, 11 that -- that in the morning call that -- 12 A: That's right, I would call him back. 13 He said if anything comes out of your phone call, call me 14 back. 15 Q: And that's -- and he was actually -- 16 perhaps you had called him because in this case he's 17 calling you. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then at the bottom of page 182 it 20 talks about: 21 "Lacroix has attributed -- I guess they 22 had a confidential talk which he didn't 23 want to share with me because he told 24 the Chief was being -- that he -- would 25 you -- no, I guess the Chief told him
1811 some things about his concerns." 2 And then at page 183, attributed to you: 3 "And he's going to keep to themselves. 4 You're probably aware of what those 5 concerns are. 6 CARSON: I suspect so. 7 LACROIX: Somehow I'm involved but I 8 don't understand that, totally." 9 But -- and then you go on to discuss the 10 TRU team. And what was being referred to there, do you 11 know? 12 A: No. I -- I don't know. 13 Q: Okay. And then at the bottom of the 14 page, you indicate: 15 "So anyhow it sounds like the 16 Government is on side. 17 CARSON: Oh, good. 18 LACROIX: And there is supposedly some 19 sort of press release. 20 CARSON: Oh well, we'll be watching 21 the news at 6:00." 22 And after that call with John Carson, did 23 you have any other discussions or calls with Marcel 24 Beaubien on September the 5th? 25 A: Not that I recollect, no.
1821 Q: Pardon? 2 A: Not that I can remember. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: This happened when, the end of the... 5 Q: That's at 16:40 -- 16: -- 6 A: -- :24. 7 Q: -- :24 plus seven (7) minutes, it's 8 16:31. 9 A: My notes show me going off right 10 after that. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: My notes show me going off duty. 13 Q: Okay. Then on September the 6th your 14 notes start at page 11, at Tab 9, Exhibit P-1448. And 15 there's no reference during the day to Ipperwash. 16 Do you recall anything happening during 17 the day that you were involved in, either telephone calls 18 with John Carson or Mr. Beaubien or anyone else with 19 respect to the events at Ipperwash? 20 A: No, because my recollection was, 21 right up until that night, that I wasn't going to be 22 called. Like I -- it was a quiet -- it was all quiet. 23 And I had no sense that I would be required. 24 Q: And the -- tell us what happened when 25 that changed; that you learned that that had changed?
1831 A: Approximately eight o'clock, 8:00 2 p.m. that night I received a phone call at home from 3 Sergeant Stan Korosec advising me that I was required at 4 the Command Post in Forest. And apparently it was the 5 authority of Inspector Linton re a possible Crowd 6 Management Unit requirement at the scene of the 7 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 8 Q: Now do you have any -- you've read 9 your notes there, do you have any independent 10 recollection of that call? 11 A: I remember Stan Korosec calling me, 12 me being at home with the family, quiet evening, the 13 phone call and something had happened and get up here. 14 Q: And do you remember when you made 15 these notes? 16 A: These notes here, it would appear 17 that I finished the first part up until I left the 18 Command Post in Forest. Looking at my notebook, there's 19 two (2) different inks, and then I go into two (2) 20 different notebooks. 21 So looking at it from that conversation up 22 until the end of my briefing, it's in a different colour 23 ink. 24 Q: Okay. But you have something that we 25 don't have.
1841 A: Yeah. 2 Q: So from that conversation down to -- 3 A: Down to my, "Our mission was..." is 4 all in a dark ink. 5 Q: And that -- and the page -- 6 A: Halfway down page 92 my pen changes. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: So reconstructing it, when I got to 9 Forest and sat down to be briefed I would have probably 10 captured this first, it's three (3) -- four (4) pages, 11 right from the bottom of 90 to halfway down 92. 12 Q: And you -- the... 13 A: They're in the same ink as the pages 14 before. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: The first few pages are the exact 17 same ink as the 6th, the 5th, the 4th, and even vacation, 18 then it changes to a blue ink. 19 Q: Okay. But the -- the indication 20 that you're making is -- the blue ink is page 90 -- 21 A: The bottom end of 92. 22 Q: -- 91, the bottom of 92? 23 A: No, sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. The 90 24 -- bottom of 90, all of 91 and two-thirds of 92. 25 Q: Down to where it says:
1851 "Our mission was..." 2 A: Yes, to the end of Army Camp Road, 3 then there's a line and it changes to blue. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: The -- so that the colour changes at 8 the bottom where it says Army Camp Road? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And so that the -- Sergeant Kor -- 11 it's referred to in the scribe notes and there's an 12 extract from P-426 at Tab 20 of your book. And the 13 scribe notes indicate: 14 "At 21 -- 20:21 hours Stan Korosec 15 called Wade Lacroix to attend. Advise 16 Mark Wright and Dale Linton." 17 And what I'm trying to understand is were 18 you called at 21 -- 20:21 hours or at eight o'clock? 19 A: My -- my recollection, it was around 20 8:00 p.m. Where's that note at, 20...? 21 Q: At Tab 20 page 74. 22 A: Right. 23 Q: 20:21 hours? 24 A: I have 20:00 that I was called. 25 Q: And so the notes that -- that go down
1861 to the bottom of page 92: 2 "Army Camp Road, our mission was..." 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: You believe were made on the evening 5 of September the 6th? 6 A: Yes, I believe they would be made at 7 the Forest Command Post. 8 Q: Before you... 9 A: Before I left for the TOC. 10 Q: Okay. And do you have any 11 independent recollection of that? 12 A: No, just looking at the change of ink 13 and then -- and that would fit that, after I get my 14 mission, I would stop writing. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And then there's a movement. Once I 17 would move to the TOC I was in hard tack. There would be 18 no notebook readily available. I mean I would be having 19 a shield and an ASP in my hand, I wouldn't be writing any 20 notes from that point, so it just would seem that I put 21 my pen away and put my notebook away. 22 Q: Okay. And the -- what do you recall 23 happening when you arrived at Forest? 24 A: Well, one (1) thing that struck me 25 is, as I drove into the driveway, there was a definite --
1871 when I was called, I was called and said, For a possible 2 CMU manoeuver, you know, may -- may be required, you 3 better get up here. 4 I remember taking my time, going to 5 Detachment, get my equipment, get my sidearm, get my car. 6 When I pulled in -- 7 Q: Okay. And before we get there -- 8 A: Sure. 9 Q: -- what else were you told in the 10 telephone conversation, if anything? So what was 11 happening, and why there was going to be a CMU? 12 A: I believe I was told that there had 13 been a further escalation. 14 Q: And what was -- what were you told, 15 if anything? 16 A: I believe that further escalation 17 was, when I got briefed by Inspector Carson, was that a 18 civilian's car, a motorist had had his car pelted with 19 stones, hit by baseball bats as it attempted to pass and 20 had lodged a private complaint. 21 Q: And there's a note at the top of the 22 page: 23 "Apparently Native -- Natives had taken 24 up position in the public parking lot. 25 [Something, I can't read that}."
1881 Do you see at the bot -- top of page 12? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Apparently -- 4 A: So this would become -- yeah, that 5 would roll right on from Stan. 6 "Apparently Natives had taken up a 7 position in the public parking lot." 8 That's what you're referring to as the 9 sandy parking -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- lot? I knew what he meant by 12 that, that that's the one that's outside the Provincial 13 Park. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Where the public goes to park if they 16 don't want to pay to go in. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Adjoining the Provincial Park at the 19 bend in Army Camp Road at Parkway Drive. So I knew 20 specifically where he meant. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: He meant that private access parking 23 lot on the boundary of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 24 Q: And the -- that parking lot was an 25 access to Lake Huron and the beach?
1891 A: Yes. You can park there and just 2 walk right out to the same beach. 3 Q: And -- or drive up to the same beach? 4 A: I know you can now. I don't know if 5 you could then, but... 6 Q: And then at 9:30 you arrive, so you 7 were about to tell us what you recall of when you 8 arrived. 9 A: What -- what struck me, you asked me 10 what struck me, is when I drove into the parking lot of 11 Forest Detachment, there seemed to be a hub of activity. 12 So I had actually taken my time to get my 13 equipment, taken my time to drive up, because it was a -- 14 kind of a -- I was being called to stand by. 15 When I pulled in, there was officers 16 moving everywhere, getting equipment out of trunks, seen 17 to be going out behind the Detachment. 18 When I pulled up, Stan Korosec, I believe, 19 was standing outside the -- the command trailer was off 20 to my right. I drove right into the actual paved 21 driveway, facing the Detachment -- 22 Q: Facing the garage? 23 A: Facing the garage, and the -- the 24 command trailer, the mobile trailer was to my right, 25 there was some stairs. I think Stan Korosec was standing
1901 outside; he might have been out having a cigarette, I 2 can't totally remember. 3 He walked over to the car and helped me 4 get my bag out of the trunk and told me -- like, either I 5 said to him, What's going on? 6 He -- the briefing I refer to here by Stan 7 was, You have 3 and 6 ERT teams forming up right now, as 8 we speak, behind the Detachment for CMU. 9 You have two (2) K-9's in support, and I 10 can't remember if I had 1 District in support at that 11 time. I think Stan had said something to me about 1 -- I 12 asked about where's 1 District; that was his district. 13 He said that they were working. 14 And then he said to me, I will not be 15 going with you, it will be George Hebblethwaite from the 16 GT -- well, GTA then or GTR. GTA -- 17 Q: Greater Toronto Area. 18 A: Greater Toronto Area will be 19 accompanying you as your number 2. I said, you know, 10- 20 4. I believe I ran into George very quickly. 21 George shook my hand, said, you know, How 22 are you, welcome, whatever. He said, I'm out behind the 23 Detachment shaking out the troops, you know, getting all 24 the equipment, making sure everybody's equipped. 25 I told him, you know, basically, Carry on,
1911 if there's any deficiencies let me know. And I went in 2 for the briefing in the trailer. 3 Q: So you went in and had a briefing 4 with -- in the trailer with whom? 5 A: Well that was another -- a little bit 6 of a change or a surprise. So this urgency was a 7 surprise, now I walk in the trailer and I was not being 8 briefed by Dale Linton, I was being briefed by John 9 Carson. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Dale Linton was present but he was 12 sitting in -- kind of in the corner. I had understood, 13 which is normal, that one of the incident commanders 14 would be working days, one would be working nights. 15 I had understood John Carson was the day 16 shift Incident Commander and had already gone off duty. 17 And I know for a fact I was called out, authority of 18 Inspector Linton. 19 So as soon as I walked in the trailer I 20 realized that John was back and basically John was in 21 charge and I received my briefing from John which follows 22 on here about: 23 "I was advised that a civilian motorist 24 had had his car pelted with stones and 25 hit by baseball bats as it attempted to
1921 pass and had lodged a complaint. I was 2 advised that I was to command a CMU to 3 move the demonstrators back into the 4 Provincial Park property. I was 5 further advised to then hold a position 6 at the Park boundary until relieved by 7 uniformed personnel and checkpoint 8 could be set up. Advised to arrest any 9 demonstrators that would not leave for 10 unlawful assembly and mischief." 11 Actually, I'll stop for a second. We're 12 having this briefing, a very specific mission-oriented 13 briefing. Actually I believe Mark Wright was in 14 attendance, but Mark Wright, I believe, was on the phone 15 a lot of the time. 16 There was a little break at this time 17 because I questioned about unlawful assembly, mischief. 18 And, you know, I remember Mark came into the discussion 19 about -- at about that time, caused disturbance, unlawful 20 assembly, mischief. What mischief are we talking about? 21 Mischief for, you know, not property but for lawful use - 22 - obstruction of lawful use -- 23 Q: You mean in the parking lot? 24 A: The parking lot. Mark -- I said, 25 Okay, what charges are we using? He's the Detective
1931 Crime Sergeant. I said, you know, I -- I talked to him, 2 are we going to go to court with this? He said, You 3 know, really what we're interested in is -- you know 4 because of course cause disturbances isn't even an 5 offense; unlawful assembly, summary. 6 It was -- what we want is to remove 7 people. If they refuse we want to arrest them, to bring 8 them to Forest to get them away from the area and then 9 we'll release them on -- charge with a condition not to 10 go back. 11 So there was that discussion and that's 12 when Mark was off the phone and he partook this part. 13 There was quite a little discussion around what we were 14 you arresting for and, you know, what was the intent of 15 the arrest. Were you really going -- you know going to 16 go through a whole, you know -- was this all about going 17 to court or was this actually to -- to break up the 18 disturbance, you know, to send people home? And it was 19 more the latter. 20 So then it ends and John gives me a glerk 21 (phonetic) as -- as we're supposed to in any of these 22 kind of situations. Both TRU Team and Crowd Management 23 are what you call miss -- mission driven or mission 24 oriented. They're mission specific so he gives me a 25 clear-cut mission.
1941 He's supposed to give me situation, 2 background knowledge. He's supposed to give me a mission 3 and he's supposed to talk about some of the execution. 4 Administration he leaves up to me and we then talk about 5 the command and control, the Comms, what channels and any 6 intelligence. 7 So I'll come back to the last part. Here 8 he gives me; our mission was to move the demonstrators 9 back onto the Park property and ensure the safety of 10 local residents and motorists using Army Camp Road. 11 So right here we have the -- the 12 discussion. I always call it the four (4) "P's". You 13 have the protect the public, you know, protect property, 14 protect the peace, you know, and even protect the accused 15 but protect; you know, the protection of the -- of the 16 public order. 17 So we had that discussion that that's your 18 mission. Move them back in the Park. 19 There was a follow-up discussion that he - 20 - I do remember him telling me, he said under no 21 circumstances go into the Park. 22 Q: And I understand -- do you recall 23 asking him for a bolt cutter or fire extinguisher? 24 A: Yes, I -- I did. I -- and I think he 25 misunderstood me on the bolt cutters; I'll talk to both.
1951 I asked for both. First let's deal with 2 the fire extinguisher. I asked for fire extinguishers 3 because maybe it was still very prevalent in my mind 4 about this flare that had been thrown but also in crowd 5 management there's two (2) big fears, one (1) of them is 6 fire and the other one is sniper; that's the two (2) 7 that's part of the training package. There are two (2) 8 fears. 9 The -- the fire was especially 10 disconcerting to me at that night because -- it's 11 something I should go back and tell you. 12 If you look at that ERT package it was 13 supposed to be rolled out over three (3) years. It was a 14 three (3) year roll-out so the tactics had been done with 15 southwestern Ontario. They were doing the tactics across 16 to the east and then they were going northeast to 17 northwest. 18 All -- at the same time equipment was 19 being purchased, equipment was being rolled out, incident 20 commanders were supposed to being trained. We were 21 lacking particularly specific pieces of equipment. Two 22 (2) of those pieces of equipment were Nomex coveralls, 23 because even in training they trained us about the fire 24 hazard, and a small man packed fire extinguisher, like a 25 halogen -- a halogen fire extinguisher. I knew they were
1961 back ordered. I knew we did not have them. 2 So Crowd Management Units everywhere are 3 fearful of fire. I knew that we were -- we had a bit of 4 a vulnerability, so I mentioned that to him. 5 I also mentioned bolt cutters. He 6 misunderstood me because under the use of force continuum 7 and under Crowd Management tactics, if a crowd goes 8 passive resistant, what they often do is they handcuff 9 themselves to immovable objects. They handcuff 10 themselves to fences or to one another. 11 The bolt cutters are -- you go over, you 12 touch them on the shoulder, tell them you're under 13 arrest, for what and then you tell them what you're going 14 to do and you cut them free. 15 So I mentioned bolt cutters. I think he 16 said you don't need them because you're not going into 17 the Park. I think he thought I wanted them for the 18 fence. But I wanted them for passive resistant. 19 They call them -- sometimes they call them 20 sleeping dragons and they have different names for them. 21 Q: Okay. And the Nomex overalls are 22 fireproof overalls? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so your instructions were to move 25 the people out of the sandy parking lot back into the
1971 Park, but not to go into the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then what happened? 4 A: My recollection then is -- so we 5 talked to the Command Control Communication Officer. He 6 was the Commander; I would answer to him. We would be on 7 a -- command control coms. We would be on the TAC. TRU 8 team would stay on their own channel, he would move 9 forward with us to the TOC down in the MNR parking lot. 10 I asked him, There CCCI; Command Control 11 Communications and Intelligence? I said to him any 12 intelligence? It was no, just males with sticks, piling 13 up rocks in the sandy parking lot. There's a bonfire. 14 No sightings of weapons. 15 I said, Are we sure of that? Yes. 16 Then I somehow became aware the TRU team 17 had Sierra teams out. Sierra -- Sierra Oscar teams; like 18 observer teams. 19 Q: When -- when did you become aware of 20 that? Was that in -- while you were in Forest? 21 A: I can't -- I can't recall if it's 22 actually at Forest or when get to the TOC, but I become 23 aware they're out so I want that intelligence. 24 Q: The -- I believe that if you look at 25 your notes, you'll see at page 14 at 22:30, you talk
1981 about the Sierra teams. 2 A: Okay. So I get advised at the TOC by 3 my notes. 4 Q: Now -- 5 A: Back up. But the thing you asked 6 what else happened. 7 Q: At Forest. 8 A: I'm sorry, go ahead. 9 At Forest. So back at Forest, so that was 10 the -- is there any other intelligence of -- I don't 11 remember any intelligence of major players, leaders, 12 anything. 13 I actually got the sense that we were not 14 -- I hadn't seen Project Maple but I'm sure Project Maple 15 to me is a contingency plan; a logistical type plan. 16 I got the impression from the whole 17 briefing that we were like on exigent circumstances. It 18 -- it -- 19 Q: On which? 20 A: On exigent. It was more -- it -- it 21 -- it was more of an urgency than with inside of 22 something called Maple. It was a, you know, this was a 23 plan within the plan to move these people out of the 24 sandy parking lot. 25 Q: And did -- do you recall having a
1991 briefing of the ERT team members -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- at Forest? 4 A: So I walked out the back door and 5 John accompanies me to the back door. Just before I 6 stepped down to go brief those, he asked me if I'm 7 satisfied. And I'm not sure if it's at that time that we 8 discuss about the additional support squad re. arrest and 9 fire. 10 But we have a quick talk on the back step. 11 Am I satisfied, and I say a full CMU plus two (2) K-9 and 12 I -- there's a discussion there somewhere about this 13 additional support squad. 14 I leave, I walk out back, George 15 Hebblethwaite has them lined up in four (4) ranks. I ask 16 George, you know, how are we, like do we -- do we have 17 enough people? You need a minimum of -- I think it's -- 18 a minimum is four (4) seven (7), twenty-eight (28). We 19 had thirty -- what did I say thirty-two (32)? 20 So we had enough numbers. I knew that 21 there were shortages around. Like, you know, some 22 shields and helmets -- did everybody have, you know, 23 helmets, like personal protective equipment? Did 24 everybody have a helmet? Did everybody have shields? 25 Everybody have, you know, protection? Yes. Everybody's
2001 equipped. 2 I gave a quick, do you know the situation? 3 I gave a quick mission. I asked if there was any 4 concerns with the missions. No there wasn't. 5 I passed on that -- I'm sure I passed on 6 at that briefing the TRU team -- now, I guess I'm not 7 sure. It might be the final briefing at the TOC that we 8 passed on TRU teams in support. 9 Any concerns? No. And then we move -- we 10 move by assorted vehicles to the TOC. 11 Q: And the notes at the bottom after 12 Army Camp Road: 13 "Our mission CMU 3 and 6 District 14 approximately thirty (30) members. 15 Number 1 and number 2 District K-9 16 teams in support. Number 2 District 17 London TRU in support." 18 And the following pages of your notes, 19 when did you make those notes, sir? 20 A: These notes, I believe I started at 21 the Pinedale Hotel on the 7th. 22 Q: After the incident? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And during the day or -- 25 A: Yeah, I believe that morning becau --
2011 and then I -- I realized I also ran out of pages. So I 2 believe that for these next -- because I notice in the 3 next notebook it says stop at Petrolia to pick up a 4 notebook. 5 So it looks like I did another -- bottom 6 of 92 to page 100 the morning of the 7th. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: And it looks like I didn't finish 9 until the 8th, because I got a note -- I never have a 10 note, stop and get notebook. It's the only note I've 11 got. 12 Q: And where is that -- 13 A: It's right here, sir. I'll...Right 14 here if you want to see it. It's on the bottom of 7 15 September: 16 "On duty re. major event duty 17 Ipperwash. Travel Pinery, Detachment, 18 Park..." 19 Oh, wait a second. I just don't want 20 to... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Where is that? 25
2021 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: It's on the morning of the 8th. So 4 that's right. Some of these'd be the 7th -- on duty at 5 seven o'clock. 6 "Stopped at Petrolia Detachment, pick up 7 notebook, et cetera." 8 Q: What page is that, sir? 9 A: That's on the top of page 10 of the 10 second notebook of... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And that's -- 15 A: Under the 8th of September, '95. 16 "Friday, 07:00 on duty. Stop at 17 Petrolia Detachment, pick up notebook, 18 et cetera. Travel to Pinedale hotel 19 re. await SIU." 20 So it would look like I ran out on the 7th 21 and picked up a notebook at Detachment on the 8th. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: So from the be -- that's all in the
2031 time that I'm awaiting SIU and... 2 Q: Okay. And so you go to the -- you 3 travel to the TOC on the MNR parking lot and how did you 4 get there? Your own cruiser or...? 5 A: My recollection is I drove myself in 6 my own car, because I still had equipment in the trunk. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: I believe I still had some of my 9 equipment in the trunk, shield and helmet, and I just 10 drove my own car, I believe. 11 Q: And when did you -- do you recall 12 when you arrived at the Ministry of Natural Resources 13 parking lot? 14 A: I just have: 15 "22:30 received final briefing at the 16 TOC." 17 So I -- I would have arrived prior to 18 that. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: Again, this is out -- we're actually 21 standing out in pitch black on -- at the TOC. There was 22 no light whatsoever. We're now forward command post. 23 There's no light anywhere, so... 24 Q: And then what did you do once you got 25 to the TOC?
2041 A: It says here I received a final 2 briefing at the TRU TOC by Inspector Carson and Staff 3 Sergeant Kent Skinner. 4 So here is the note that says: 5 "Advised that TRU had two (2) Sierra 6 teams out to provide cover and to 7 update intelligence." 8 So right away, I -- I asked that TRU give 9 the number of demonstrators in the parking lot and what 10 they were armed with. 11 So first, number; second, what are they 12 carrying? What -- what's the threat? 13 I was advised we're approximately ten (10) 14 to fifteen (15) males with clubs and seen piling rocks. 15 Q: And anything else? 16 A: Yeah -- 17 Q: Do you have -- do you have an 18 independent recollection of this or are you taking this 19 from your notes? 20 A: No, I do remember Kent Skinner 21 telling me what he could. And I remember thinking okay, 22 no weapons seen, rocks and sticks. You know, that's -- 23 that's the mandate of Crowd Management. If there's any 24 weapon that's TRU team right away. So I'm listening 25 intently to what is being seen.
2051 Crowd Management, you know, obviously 2 comes about uniform and in Soft TAC. It's between Soft 3 TAC and TRU so I'm listening intently to what the threat 4 is. 5 Q: And what was your understanding that 6 the -- what the two (2) Sierra teams were to do? 7 A: My understanding was again -- you 8 know we are concerned about sniper. I don't know -- 9 that's not maybe why they were out but we're concerned 10 about sniper and I know TRU team would have high ground 11 advantage. So I felt good that they had the high ground 12 advantage. They were there in a position of cover. 13 Whether or not they said it, I said it, 14 cover. But they were out I believe gathering 15 intelligence. They were trying to ascertain what was 16 going on out on ground. 17 Q: And do you recall today -- do you -- 18 was it your understanding that the TRU team had the 19 Sierra teams already deployed at 10:30 on -- 22:30 on the 20 evening of September the 6th? 21 A: I -- I think at the TOC I -- I was 22 under the -- under pressure -- under the impression that 23 they were already in position, but as things unfolded it 24 became clear to me that they were having difficulty 25 getting in position because I wasn't getting the
2061 intelligence is one (1) thing I -- that I was asking for 2 and I think it becomes -- I find out later that they were 3 having difficulty getting into position. 4 Q: And then what happened? Did you -- 5 A: So there's -- there's a discussion, 6 like a -- a TRU team IAP which stands for Immediate 7 Action Plan. You know, that's just basically a catch- 8 all. That's a TRU team, you know, role to provide 9 support. 10 So a TRU team, I think it was the Alpha 11 team under Acting Sergeant Ken Deane, was assigned to go 12 with us and went down ahead of us to ensure there was no 13 one with weapons because they had night vision equipment. 14 ERT teams certainly did not. 15 So I remember the Alpha element was split 16 into two (2) two (2) man teams; one (1) to the left 17 flank, one (1) to the right flank, off in the bush beside 18 us and slightly ahead to kind of make sure we didn't walk 19 into some kind of trap or... 20 Q: And had anyone advised you that there 21 were two (2) -- that there was an Oscar team had been out 22 that evening down by the -- the -- an ERT Oscar team? 23 A: No, sir, I would have known Oscar was 24 ERT by the call sign. Nobody ever mentioned Oscar. 25 Q: And when the -- you were in at Forest
2071 the... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: ...were you aware that individuals 6 had been issued ASP batons? 7 A: I -- I remember when I came around 8 the back of the Detachment there were people practising 9 closing their ASP's on the pavement, but I -- I can -- I 10 do not recollect that they were being issued at that 11 time. But I was aware, like I said, of a lot of 12 shortages. 13 There was a lot of changes going on in the 14 OPP at that time. I myself was the only one carrying a 15 .38 because the sidearm had also changed and was being 16 rolled out to line officers first, and then detectives, 17 and then administrators; that's why I was the only one 18 carrying a revolver. 19 So there was all kinds of equipment 20 changes going on at that time. Training had taken place 21 but the equipment was all back ordered so -- 22 Q: And -- 23 A: -- I just -- I was aware of people 24 practising with their ASP's, but I thought maybe it was 25 just new equipment. I -- I wasn't aware that they were
2081 issued right then. 2 Q: And... 3 A: But I was aware that people were also 4 making sure everybody had a shield. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: Everybody -- they were making sure 7 that -- not everybody had a shield so they were making 8 sure that everybody had a shield, like they were -- they 9 were sharing amongst all the ERT. 10 Q: Okay. And perhaps this would be an 11 appropriate time for the afternoon break? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 3:26 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 3:44 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed, please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now, were you told, on the evening of
2091 September the 6th, before the CMU started down East 2 Parkway Drive, that there had been a report about AK47's 3 mini-Rugers and gas bombs in the Park or the Army Camp? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: And if you had been made aware of 6 this information, what, if anything, would you have done 7 with it? 8 A: If that was -- if I -- if that was 9 confirmed information? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I would -- 12 Q: If you were advised that they had 13 this information, you would want to know, I take it then, 14 if it was confirmed? 15 A: Absolutely. 16 Q: And if it wasn't confirmed -- when 17 you -- when you say confirmed, what do you mean by that? 18 A: From a reliable source. Like if it 19 had been seen a police officer or an eye witness, you 20 know, like that. 21 Q: And what, if anything, would you have 22 been -- would have done if it had been confirmed? 23 A: I would have stood the CMU down. 24 Q: And why was that? 25 A: The ERT members that make up the CMU
2101 are regular uniform officers. The are issued regular 2 soft body armour, they do not have ballistic armour like 3 TRU team has. Only TRU team have armour that can stop an 4 AK-47 round. 5 They are not equipped for -- for, you 6 know, gunfights; that's not their mandate. That level of 7 violence is in the TRU team's mandate and training and 8 tactics. 9 And as I said to you before, one of the -- 10 the big fears or threats to CMU is, (1) fire bombs, 11 especially fire bombs because they stick to you, and (2) 12 would be snipers. 13 So that would be completely outside our 14 mandate. 15 Q: Okay. And prior to going down the -- 16 departing from the Ministry of the Natural -- the Natural 17 Resources parking lot, what, if anything, had you been 18 told about the -- an injunction? 19 A: I had been told, I believe it -- I 20 believe by Mark Wright, during the discussion and 21 briefing, that they would be going for injunction the 22 following morning. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I think -- I think I remember even 25 ten o'clock Sarnia, they were going to be going for a
2111 Court -- Court order, Court injunction. 2 Q: And what, if anything, were you told 3 as to the relationship between the injunction and the 4 work that you were doing with -- on the evening of 5 September the 6th? 6 Was there any connection there? 7 A: There -- I wasn't given a direct 8 connection. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Just that I knew that it was coming. 11 Q: Okay. And then can you tell us, when 12 you were in the -- at the MNR parking lot you learned 13 what you've just told us about the TRU team and what the 14 team -- the Sierra team was doing and what the IAP -- the 15 Alpha teams, the IAP teams. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what instructions did you give, 18 if anything, to the CMU crowd management unit once you 19 were down at the MNR parking lot? 20 A: I remember telling them that -- I 21 should back up one (1) second. I do remember that there 22 was some intelligence about movement in the kiosk. That 23 was -- that was known that they had been seeing some kind 24 of a sighting in the kiosk. 25 Q: And the -- and were you told which
2121 kiosk? 2 A: Yes. The one that leads into the 3 main gate to the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: So -- and I knew that, at that point, 6 two (2) Sierra teams were out. One would have been on 7 the right side of the road, which I guess we're taking to 8 be south side. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And one was on the north side. So I 11 knew one was going up to kind of the high berm cottage 12 area and the other one was going directly across the 13 kiosk. I believe I passed that on to the members that 14 there were TRU -- two (2) TRU team, Sierra teams out, 15 that there had been seen some movement. 16 And I told them that at any indication or 17 sighting of a weapon at all, that we -- I would give the 18 order for them to take cover, to go to ground, and that 19 we would await TRU team either to give us the all clear 20 or TRU team to deal with it, tactically. 21 Q: Okay. And then the -- were you told 22 anything about a fire in the parking lot? 23 A: Yes. I was told that there was these 24 -- the intelligence I got was fifteen (15) to twenty (20) 25 males with -- carrying sticks, poles and piling rocks,
2131 and they were around a bonfire in the sandy parking lot. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: The inference was that it was in the 4 middle of the sandy parking lot. 5 Q: Okay. And anything else before you - 6 - the team deployed? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: No. There was -- there was no 11 specifics going back, but you asked me about the weapon. 12 There was no specific weapon by make, by type, by 13 whatever. There was an inference about, you know, there 14 was just an undertone about weapons. 15 There's always an undertone concern about 16 weapons probably with any call. So maybe that's why I 17 addressed it. 18 But there was just -- I think there was 19 something said about possibly shots had -- had been heard 20 earlier, but again, not specific, not substantiated. 21 Like shots, I took it that they were 22 actually not in the Park, but back in the Army Camp. 23 Q: Okay. And so then can you tell us 24 what happened next? 25 A: We were -- so when I give this
2141 briefing that the latest intelligence was fifteen (15) to 2 twenty (20) males with sticks and stones, you know, I 3 ensured, you know, I said no weapons, you know, I 4 basically addressed the CMU that that was certainly the 5 CMU's mandate, was a demonstration with the threat of 6 projectiles. And made sure everybody was satisfied with 7 that and told them that if anything changed, again, we'd 8 be out of there. 9 And we marched off down Army Camp Road. I 10 had one last talk to John Carson; the mission remained 11 the same: Clear the sandy parking lot. If they go 12 freely, let them go, you know, if they will not leave, 13 like they'd have to absolutely refuse to leave, arrest 14 those that do not leave. And so off we went. 15 Q: And can you tell us what happened as 16 you went down the road? 17 A: So we marched off in a box formation. 18 Again, a box formation, as I described earlier, is one to 19 make -- to make distance, it's nice and tight and moves 20 quick. 21 Q: That was in Exhibit P-1454, was a box 22 formation. 23 A: So we headed out box formation, so 24 the support squad, I guess Wayde Jacklin, I think, was 25 Sergeant support squad in -- in the rear, approximately
2151 one tactical bound behind us. 2 I think I talked to Wayde, stay one 3 tactical bound, that's approximately twenty-five (25) 4 metres, behind us. K-9 -- two (2) K-9 units assigned; 5 they were in behind us. And two (2) prisoner vans were 6 in behind us. 7 We headed down Parkway Drive, which I 8 believe you're -- you're actually referring that to be 9 East -- it's called East Parkway Drive. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: So we're heading in an easterly 12 direction, headed towards the Provincial Park, Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park. We got out about, I'd say better than - 14 - than halfway, I'd say around five hundred (500) metres, 15 but I don't believe it was one -- at one place I think it 16 was said it was one (1) click. I don't really think it 17 is a full click; it seems to be somewhat less than that. 18 So about a good five hundred (500) metres out. 19 TRU team advised to come on -- it must 20 have come through the TOC, advised that there was a lone 21 male standing in the edge of the parking lot with what 22 appeared to be a rifle. 23 Q: And you're referring -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry. Could you 25 just slow down just a touch.
2161 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, do you -- you're referring to 5 your notes. Do you have any -- what do you recall 6 without referring to your notes? 7 A: I remember receiving a transmission 8 of a sighting of a -- a man standing with a rifle -- 9 Q: And -- 10 A: -- at near the bend in Army Camp 11 Road. So I remember splitting the formation; it's a -- 12 it's a command that right from the centre, half of each 13 unit goes right and half of the unit goes left. 14 I put them off onto the grassy shoulder 15 near the bush line, told them to take a knee, I wanted to 16 lower their silhouette, also to resting position. I told 17 them we would await there for the TRU team to 18 investigate. 19 And they did. It came back basically all 20 clear that it was a stick. So we re-formed box formation 21 and continued on eastbound. It seems to me it wasn't 22 much time after that that I sighted, I'll call them 23 sentries. 24 There was -- there was a couple of people 25 out -- they were just -- like I don't want to say males
2171 because they were silhouettes with floodlights and they 2 were at the actual bend of Army Camp Road, because it was 3 little bit -- it went up a bit there, it makes a bit of a 4 crown on the road. 5 They were milling around with the 6 floodlights. They immediately lit us up, which wasn't 7 hard to do; we were a large formation, you know, 8 plexiglass shields, Lexan face masks. They lit us up. 9 It seems to me that there was two (2), 10 anyway, with the floodlights. And there seemed to be 11 some other silhouettes or movement in behind that, they 12 were also backlit by the bonfire. 13 And there was an ATV, I don't know if you 14 want to call doing donuts, but there was an ATV behind 15 the two (2) with the floodlights and towards the lake 16 kind of tooling around a little bit. 17 Q: And where was it, in the sandy -- 18 A: I would assume it was in the sandy 19 parking lot and the two (2), if you want to call them 20 sentries, were actually on Army Camp Road on the bend. 21 Q: The bend where East Parkway Drive 22 runs -- meets Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: So basically then, there we were, and
2181 there they were. And so we just kept marching and I 2 believe we transmitted that, you know, we'd been spotted 3 or, you know, that we were -- we were taking turns, so to 4 speak. I'm not sure if I transmitted or George 5 transmitted, we're stand side by each. 6 Sometimes I'd be yelling commands to the 7 unit, you know, left, right, or whatever, or the 8 formation, and George would transmit or vice versa. 9 I believe we transmitted that we'd been 10 sighted, we're engaging, something like that; we're 11 approaching or engaging. 12 So we just kept marching towards them and 13 they basically backed up at the same pace that we 14 approached them. We were at a walking pace. They backed 15 up at a walking pace. 16 I'd say by the time we crossed onto the 17 edge of the sandy parking lot, entering it, there were 18 actually four (4) or five (5) of them and they were still 19 lingering near the bush, like on the -- near the bush 20 line on the sandy parking lot side of the boundary fence. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: So at that point, as soon as I come 23 off the pavement, I -- now that we're going to, you know, 24 face the demonstrators, so to speak, the called-for 25 formation is the cordon formation, which gives you more
2191 frontage. 2 I called out, Cordon formation. We broke 3 into cordon formation as we entered onto sandy parking 4 lot, we walked across and we halted. I -- my estimate 5 was I was about, you know 30, 40 -- 30 to 40 feet from 6 the fence. 7 As I was walking -- 8 Q: How far from the fence did you 9 estimate the front -- the contact squad? 10 A: The front contact squad, by that 11 diagram, supposed to be 20 feet ahead of me; that's on a 12 parade square. I personally think they was closer to me, 13 like 15 feet, like good three (3) or four (4) strides. 14 And I felt that the front contact squad 15 was halfway between me and the fence. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: So that's where I -- I'd say 30 -- 30 18 plus feet from my position. 19 Q: So they would be about 15 feet from 20 the fence? 21 A: They -- they could be 15 to 20. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Before I halted them -- I mean, so I 24 halted there, but as I'm coming across, I'm watching, and 25 what I'm seeing is fifteen (15) to twenty (20) males all
2201 around a giant bonfire, big bonfire, there was a picnic 2 table on the bonfire, burning. 3 There was cars in behind the bonfire and 4 there looked to be shapes behind that. But they were now 5 back in the dark, they -- they were just -- they were 6 just some shapes in the dark. 7 Q: And where was the bonfire? 8 A: As I walking across, I realize the 9 bonfire is actually on the other side of a page wire 10 fence. So it's actually not in the sandy parking lot, 11 it's in the actual parking lot, I think, for the store of 12 the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 13 Q: So it's inside the Provincial Park? 14 A: It's inside the Provincial Park. 15 Q: And at this point in time, are all of 16 the individuals back inside the Provincial Park? 17 A: About the time I halt they're going - 18 - the last couple are going through, like, a turnstile to 19 -- and I'm looking at them looking at the Provincial 20 Park, one (1) or two (2) go through a turnstile affair to 21 my immediate left, and one (1) or two (2) slip -- there's 22 a gate to my right with a dumpster and behind that a 23 yellow school bus, they slip through a gap there. 24 So as we come on station, like halt, 25 they're -- they're on the other side of the boundary,
2211 they're just back through. 2 Q: And then what happened? 3 A: So I'm basically standing there 4 assessing the situation, realizing they're on the 5 property, Provincial property. 6 My mission to clear the sandy parking lot 7 is now done, there's -- because the sentries and all 8 that, on their own, went back. They complied, basically, 9 without being told to; they -- they just did it. 10 I'm about to transmit our position. I 11 think we do some transmission, we're about to transmit, 12 (a) you know, they're -- they're in the Park, mission 13 accomplished, when -- I can't remember exactly if there's 14 a few rocks or projectiles come at that point or not, but 15 a man, a shorter man, a rotund man, comes through the 16 turnstile to my left with a pole, 6/7 feet long, swinging 17 it back and forth and coming towards the -- the extreme 18 left-hand member of the front contact squad. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And he's yelling out, You're 21 desecrating our land, you're standing on -- you know, 22 you're standing on sacred ground. You know, my 23 grandfather fought for this land. You know, comments 24 were coming out, Whitey, that kind of thing, Get back on 25 the Mayflower.
2221 Q: By the same man or by -- 2 A: No, I think some of them -- there was 3 a lot of heckling coming out. The man who was doing the 4 -- You're -- You're desecrating the land and -- and the - 5 - about the forefathers, there were some other comments 6 about, Your fancy equipment won't -- won't help you, et 7 cetera. 8 So he was -- so I'm kind of multi-tasking 9 here, I was going to transmit, I'm just realizing the 10 situation of there is no mission really at this point, in 11 the sense of they are on the property, when he comes out. 12 But he's getting very, very close to the -- to the 13 individual in the front Contact Squad. 14 I'm getting kind of concerned about his 15 safety. He's just standing at ease. There's a tactic 16 that we've been taught, it's called a punchout. Each 17 squad can do a punch-out or the unit can do a punchout. 18 What it is is that that squad runs forward towards a 19 crowd. 20 In -- in this kind of a situation they 21 call what he's doing taunting, is -- is the word, or -- 22 or bristling, you know. We were trained that the crowd 23 will try to antagonize you to do something and they'll 24 run up as a feint and go back. 25 So the tactic for that is if one (1) of
2231 two (2) members come up and try to, you know, pull on the 2 shield or do something as you do a punchout, very quickly 3 they run at him. I think there may be shield chatter at 4 that time, I can't remember the tactic, a little bit of 5 shield chatter, a little yelling. They run right at them 6 to scare them off, basically. 7 I yelled for that left cover to do that; 8 they did it, they ran right at him. He turned around, 9 back through the turnstile. They ran as far as the fence 10 and then on their own started to back up. 11 We -- we also yelled, Back, back, back, 12 but they do as well; that's part of the -- part of the 13 drill. On the, Go, they run up to 50 feet. I don't 14 think they had 50 feet but then immediately they -- the 15 back up. 16 About then -- then the projectiles really 17 started to come. There was rocks, firebrands off the 18 fire anywhere from a foot to 18 inches coming through the 19 air spinning. I saw, you know, most of them land 20 harmlessly amongst the front Contact Squad. I believe 21 some officers did use their shield just to pop it away. 22 Rocks came. They started really pounding 23 on the -- the hoods and the cars and really making quite 24 a ruckus, quite a din, so at that time I think I -- is 25 when I called for shield chatter.
2241 We -- we'd tap on our shields, which is to 2 put our din over the top of the crowd. It didn't really 3 -- obviously -- they always say everything has a pro and 4 a con; it -- it didn't stop the pounding and the noise. 5 So we're standing there taking all the 6 projectiles pretty good and it felt like about two (2) 7 hours, probably about two (2) minutes. 8 I believe we got through to Command about 9 that time, the situation, that in all -- in actual fact, 10 you know, mission accomplished, they're -- they're on the 11 provincial property. The bonfire's not on the sandy lot. 12 Either telling them -- I mean it's not 13 really -- telling them that I -- I was in -- I was going 14 to back up. It's not really a permission thing. I'm the 15 tactical commander on ground, it's my decision to, you 16 know, back up or not. So I -- I believe I was radioing 17 them that we were going to back up to a more defensible 18 position which what I had in mind was the Army Camp Road. 19 So we backed up to Army Camp Road, set up 20 the cordon formation there. I remember I was on the 21 pavement in the middle of the formation still, which left 22 the front Contact Squad probably that fifteen (15), as 23 we've -- fifteen (15) to twenty (20) feet out into -- 24 into the sand, because I was on the edge of the lot. 25 The reason I remember I was on the
2251 pavement is because one (1) rock came in low, and the 2 good thing about the sandy parking lot, when they were 3 hitting the sand they were just hitting and stopping. It 4 hit and skipped and caught me on the inside of the 5 instep; we don't have protection there. 6 But I thought, generally, we were in a 7 pretty safe spot because they were coming in like that, 8 very low, like they weren't hitting as high up. So we 9 were standing there. 10 Right cover was basically stretched out, I 11 believe, kind of up towards Army Camp. Left cover would 12 be off towards, like, a laneway of a cottage. I don't 13 know if it was in the laneway but it was kind of on that 14 angle. 15 The support -- the actual rear support of 16 the CMU would be on the -- it would be southbound lane. 17 And then I don't know if Wayde Jacklin's crew was in 18 behind that. There wasn't a whole of lot of room because 19 there was a small shoulder and then a brand new page wire 20 where a fence that came to an inverted V behind us. 21 So I did take note of that, that we really 22 had no place to go from where we were. Around that time 23 I became aware that there was an obstruction on Army Camp 24 Road, like someone brought it to my attention. And it 25 turned out to be rocks and logs, I think, very low
2261 structured right across Army Camp. 2 I -- I had them remove it. Like my 3 recollection is that it was -- I believe it was the 4 support squad under Wayde Jacklin. I didn't break the 5 actual CMU, I kept it in tact. 6 Still some projectiles going on. We're 7 talking a little bit to TOC, you know, tell them, Yes, 8 we're now in a defensive position. 9 I was feeling not too bad where we were, 10 when all of a sudden I looked up and all of the 11 protesters, I'll call them, demonstrators, because they 12 were demonstrating about this being a burial ground, 13 that's why I thought of them that way, you know, versus 14 occupiers, so they come -- it looked like two (2) 15 distinct ranks came out. 16 I -- I wouldn't necessarily say like our 17 formation, but about a forward group of about ten (10), 18 all carrying steel poles, sticks, clubs came out, 19 followed by another group of anywhere from five (5) to 20 ten (10) in behind the first group. 21 They came out and they were picking up 22 those projectiles, that they'd already thrown at us once, 23 as they were coming out, and picking them up and throwing 24 them again. They had a pretty good stockpile out there. 25 Q: And at this point had anyone been
2271 arrested? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And then what happened from -- 4 A: So I figured that, you know, from our 5 training again, you know, that's exactly what we would do 6 to each other is, you know, when you try to move a crowd, 7 the crowd will generally move. But maybe one will come 8 up and try to antagonize, run up and -- I'm not saying 9 they did this, but run up and spit at the Crowd 10 Management Team or throw something and try to get the 11 Crowd to overre -- the Crowd Management to overreact. So 12 this gentleman doing what he did, I took it that way. 13 Then during some of the training we did, 14 of course, the same thing would happen, we'd -- we'd move 15 the crowd back but then they would slowly come out to get 16 the projectiles and -- and try to encroach back on that 17 land. So I -- I thought that's what was going on, they 18 were just coming out to get the projectiles. 19 And then I -- I noticed that they had -- 20 were coming, you know, quite -- quite a bit further than 21 what I thought they would do. They were coming right 22 across and they seemed to be picking up speed. 23 So about halfway across the sandy parking 24 lot I realize they were now full bore run, running right 25 at us. So I believe I -- I gave the command -- my
2281 recollection is I said, Steady. I think I saw somewhere 2 Ready, but Steady, Ready. I gave a command -- a 3 precautionary command to just hold. 4 You know, I didn't want anybody going -- 5 didn't want anybody doing anything because, I mean, 6 you're seeing this twenty (20) individuals running at 7 you, I just said, Steady, steady. 8 It also was a preemptory to a command. 9 What I was thinking -- the only thing I had, if they come 10 on as hard, with the fence behind us, if we took it real 11 hard and I backed up any further, it would have split my 12 formation in two (2). 13 It would have caused the right part to go 14 up Army Camp Road and it would have caused the whole left 15 piece to go down Parkway; it basically would have divided 16 my formation in half. So I was very concerned that I had 17 my back against the wall, so to speak. I had no real 18 place to go. 19 So I waited until the last possible moment 20 and I think that ten (10) made full contact on the front 21 contact squad, which would have put ten (10) 22 demonstrators on that front and file six (6). So that 23 would have been ten (10) on six (6). 24 As they made contact, there was a clash. 25 At that point I gave a Go command. So if the -- the
2291 Ready, ready or Steady, steady, whatever's is the 2 preparatory, they know that, and I might have yelled out, 3 You're not all on the calms. 4 A lot of things you yell out, you know, 5 We're going to do a punch out. I mean George or I might 6 have yelled out, Prepare for punch out. 7 As soon as they made contact I yelled, Go, 8 the go command, without any other disclaimer of a squad 9 name. Just a 'go' command is a unit punchout 50 feet 10 forward. And I called that and we basically -- when they 11 hit us we ran towards them. 12 So the rear ranks now come running forward 13 and we meshed into one (1) great big group. 14 The next thing I know there's an 15 individual male directly in front of me. Again, there's 16 these gaps in the formation at shoulder dressing and then 17 10 feet between pairs. And if there's only six (6) and 18 they're taking on ten (10) obviously there's going to be 19 one (1) or two (2) or not being -- not in any kind of a 20 situation with anybody else. 21 So I realised that this male was coming 22 directly at me. He had a large steel pole, 6 feet, 23 anyway, long. 24 He was running. First I saw him swinging 25 left and right when I first saw him, and then I realized
2301 he was coming up over his head running straight at me. I 2 realized at the rate I was going, I was going to catch it 3 on the end of the pole, so I actually picked up speed. 4 I ran to get my shield up underneath the 5 pole. I managed to catch the pole about full bore. It 6 busted the plexiglass shield in half and glanced off of 7 the left edge of my helmet and shoulder. 8 And then he was fully extended in front of 9 me. Somewhere along the line I got my night stick out so 10 I struck him in the -- his left clavicle shoulder tip 11 area; that's what we're trained to do. We're trained 12 never to -- never to hit on the head. Try to hit upper 13 arm, shoulder point. So I struck him in that area. 14 He dropped the pole, went down. Just 15 because that all happened, everybody still runs the 50 16 feet forward. 17 I didn't stop. I kind of popped over his 18 legs. I kept running with the formation; contact -- 19 front contact in front of me; left and right, roughly 20 beside me; and I assumed the rear arrest support with me. 21 We ran approximately the 50 feet. I 22 thought I saw another couple of protesters down. We 23 basically ended up in the same spot we were just at, 24 about 30 feet out from the fence, so I -- I don't know if 25 the 50 -- I don't know if that's the distance. I think
2311 it might be. Like it might have been only about 80 feet. 2 So given a 50 foot go command from the pavement, it put 3 us pretty close to where we had just been. 4 We arrived there. Obviously different 5 people had -- like they do have different -- they must 6 have had different altercations of their own. So they 7 didn't all arrive at one (1) station so to speak, at the 8 same time. 9 I -- as we were running forward, I did see 10 some of the demonstrators rushing back through the 11 turnstiles and back through the gates; some off to the 12 side. 13 We get back cordon formation, thirty (30) 14 feet out. Arrest was taking place to the rear which is 15 the normal procedure, especially if the whole group goes. 16 The whole group goes forward. What it 17 does is then it provides protection. It keeps the 18 demonstrators further away from the arrest squad to put 19 them out of projectile range and provide protection with 20 their shields to the arrests which takes place in a 21 relatively safe environment. 22 So there was an arrest taking place back 23 over my left shoulder. 24 Q: And did -- was -- 25 A: Hmm --
2321 Q: Did you -- 2 A: Sorry. 3 Q: -- observe -- do you recall today who 4 the person being arrested was? Was it the person that 5 you had the altercation with, or someone else? 6 A: I have always testified that I was 7 struck by a male. I've never even testified Aboriginal. 8 I've testified I could not identify, even in trial, age, 9 race, size, clothing. He was an absolute silhouette. 10 I forgot to mention that those floodlights 11 way back in my evidence. Those floodlights, when they 12 went back in, as they walked back in, not only did they 13 keep those floodlights, they turned that ATV light on us. 14 I believe the bus lights had come on us and some other 15 very powerful lights. So we had been lit up, actually, 16 even back to the man coming through the turnstiles. 17 So these individuals running at us were 18 nothing but a silhouette. They were just the shape of a 19 man. I have never identified my assailant, even in 20 cross-exam trial. I have never identified that man. I 21 don't know who that man is or was. So I don't know if 22 that's the man that struck me that got arrested. 23 Q: And the man who -- who struck you, 24 his silhouette, can you describe his silhouette? Do you 25 recall what it was?
2331 A: Taller than me, of course that's not 2 difficult, but taller than me, thinner than myself. I -- 3 I'd put him at five ten (5' 10"), five eleven (5' 11"). 4 You know, he wasn't very -- he wasn't very husky. You 5 know he wasn't a husky fellow. He wasn't rotund -- he 6 wasn't the rotund fellow, he was average build, five 7 eleven (5' 11"). 8 Q: Okay. And so you noticed that 9 someone was being arrested and then what happened? 10 A: Well, actually what happened, so we 11 were standing there. There is other action to the 12 front. The same thing now happens on the right flank 13 that had happened on the left flank. 14 A fairly large man, I'd say a six foot 15 five (6' 5") large man about a 250 pound large man came 16 out through -- by the bus and the dumpster. He had a -- 17 I call it a delinear pole, a T-rail, one of the ones for 18 using stop -- for stop signs. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And he had that and he was swinging 21 it back and forth calling us all cowards. He made the 22 same move only now on the extreme right-hand pair of the 23 right cover, whereas before it was actually the extreme 24 left of the front Contact Squad. 25 So he started swinging towards him; that
2341 was going on. I didn't order a punchout on that one. I 2 was waiting for them to make the arrest, get him in the 3 prisoner van so we could get out of there because the 4 rocks were coming in also again. 5 So we ignored basically that gentleman. 6 The prisoner van, my concern was that it -- there was -- 7 as you come off Army Camp Road into -- into the sandy 8 parking lot it narrowed somewhat a little so it was a bit 9 of a choke point. The prisoner van to me when I would 10 glance back appeared to be not blocking the whole escape 11 route but -- but it was an obstruction to try to back a 12 cordon squad out. 13 What I had to try to go into a tighter 14 formation like a box which would have made us extremely 15 susceptible to the rocks and the firebrands so I didn't 16 want to do that. So I'm kind of -- I think I said to 17 George, Let's expedite this. 18 And so I -- anyhow it did get clear and we 19 backed out. But this time I decided we would not stop at 20 Army Camp we were going to go back a lot further for -- I 21 thought at this time -- I mean you can only -- this 22 equipment's good but you can only take this for so long. 23 It's very, very tiring. I mean and we threw stuff at 24 each other; it was hollow PVC pipes, not steel pipes and 25 we threw hockey pucks, not rocks.
2351 So I wanted to retreat back down the road. 2 I had noticed in the way in that there was like a cut to 3 the beach, like it was an area. So I wanted to get back 4 another -- another 50 metres on the bend in the road, 5 still in sight of the sandy parking lot but not near that 6 page wire fence to take a rest and R&R. Like, I was 7 going to take a -- a water break, a -- we had one (1) 8 prisoner now, get the prisoner back to the TOC. You 9 know, stand down a little bit, seek further direction. 10 So that was my plan was to even go further 11 back. 12 Q: Then what happened? 13 A: We were -- we did get past the bend. 14 We were over the bend. Unfortunately we were in a worse 15 -- in the worst possible position because we got about 30 16 metres from the bend and -- and on the way in I noticed 17 there's a brand new page wire fence. 18 It was shiny metal and white cedar posts, 19 brand spanking new, on our right which would be south and 20 then there was -- it rose up in the berm on the left 21 which is north with thick cedars. 22 So we were technically cordoned but it 23 would look more like a -- that box formation. It -- it - 24 - the terrain compressed the right cover and the left 25 cover in and it looked more like almost a box.
2361 So we were being funnelled by the fence 2 and the bushes. We were trying to get back. 3 Q: Were you walking backwards or -- 4 A: We were walking backwards. We -- 5 we're still watching the Park. I'm just going back, 6 back, back, so we were just backing out. 7 I hear the bus start up. I see the lights 8 because I'm lined up -- I'm standing in the center of the 9 pavement so I'm looking -- I guess that would be -- what 10 are we calling that east? I guess that's -- it's north - 11 - it's northeast. When I'm looking straight -- 12 Q: Towards -- 13 A: -- down -- 14 Q: -- towards the Park? 15 A: Sorry? 16 Q: Straight. 17 A: Straight towards the Park which lined 18 me up perfectly with the -- the dumpster, gate, bus. I'm 19 looking at the bus, see it's headlights come on, I see 20 one (1) individual I believe get in it and I believe 21 another one near it. 22 I don't -- I didn't see him -- just saw a 23 silhouette like standing beside the door. The bus starts 24 up, you kind of see the lights over top of the dumpster. 25 The bus moves forward. There must now have been a gate
2371 there or maybe there was. 2 The bus makes contact with the dumpster, 3 it starts pushing the dumpster across the sandy parking 4 lot in our direction. I don't like the look of this, 5 thinking this is going to -- this isn't going to be good. 6 So as it's coming across, lucky for us, 7 now I don't know if it was intended to be a weapon, it 8 flipped off. The dumpster flipped off the front of the 9 bus. One of the wheels dug in and it flipped off. And I 10 can't remember -- I might have diverted my attention and 11 look back and it was gone. So I just -- but it was gone. 12 Q: The dumpster was gone? 13 A: The dumpster was gone, the bus was 14 still coming. The bus comes across, I think when I 15 realized as it kind of hits Army Camp, I realize it's 16 coming straight down the road. 17 I yelled, Split formation, again the same 18 way I had when the man with the rifle was seen; Split 19 right, Split left. So I wanted to get them off the 20 travelled portion to let the bus, you know, go right 21 between -- right through the formation. 22 So they split. I'd say about a third went 23 in -- it's not really a ditch, it's just really a grass 24 shoulder on the right side, south side to the page wire 25 fence; a little -- a little bit of a decline on the north
2381 side towards these bushes. 2 A third went right south. Two-thirds 3 (2/3's) went north. All of a sudden the -- so I did this 4 to get them off the road and let the bus go through. But 5 the bus then -- I can't say veered, it didn't really have 6 to veer, it just -- it just drove off onto the grass 7 shoulder and right along that fence right towards those 8 Members. 9 The Members were all standing there, it 10 seemed to me some were trying to climb the fence. I 11 think I saw some throw -- like they were trying to throw 12 their shields over, throw their batons away to -- to get 13 over. 14 Then I see some, I'm sure one like just 15 dives over the fence and others tried to dive the other 16 way back towards the pavement. The bus came right along 17 on the grass shoulder which -- the shoulder looked like 18 it was about 9 or 10 feet wide. Like it was one (1) 19 lane. 20 Typical county -- county road is 20 to 22 21 feet of -- being an old traffic guy, 20 to 22 feet of 22 asphalt, each lane's around 10 feet and if you're lucky 23 you've got a 10 feet shoulder. 24 And that shoulder looked to be about 10 25 feet. So 9/10 feet, so this bus is right on the grass
2391 shoulder coming right along with the, you know, off, to 2 me, off the asphalt right straight along the fence where 3 the officers are. 4 So it goes -- they all jump out of the 5 way. I had pulled my gun, track on the driver, because I 6 had no shield and I had no stick so it was fairly easy to 7 draw. I track on the bus but I realized at that point 8 when I'm looking down the road, those officers are ahead 9 of the bus. 10 So they're all in the ditch in between me 11 and the bus. So I -- I certainly -- I don't have a clear 12 shot. I know it's got to be a shot on the driver. It's 13 not going to stop the car by shooting out the rad -- out 14 rad or the tires so I just track it. 15 It comes right on by me and as it goes by 16 my right shoulder I release it. And at that time and my 17 peripheral vision I pick up a car, a large four (4) door 18 car, it was somewhere. It was either behind the bus or - 19 - but there it was. 20 And it's at that time about 30 metres back 21 towards the Park, 25 metres. And I -- I see it swerve. 22 I believe there was a CMU Member on the north ditch 23 slightly ahead of the others. It looked the car like 24 swerved towards him. 25 Then it's just a little flick of the
2401 wheel, the right fender dipped and carried back on. It's 2 in the, therefore northbound lane, when all of a sudden 3 it swerved -- 4 Q: On the north side. On -- on the lake 5 side. 6 A: On the lake side, headed westbound. 7 In the last minute it goes right off the road, off on the 8 shoulder and plows into the public order member standing 9 there. 10 There was about at least ten (10) of them. 11 I -- I'm still standing facing that way, so I watched the 12 bus going and I watched the car; it's to my left. 13 I see one (1) officer try to jump up and I 14 think he thought he was going to use a shield to buff -- 15 to buffet himself, but the shield kind of folded and I 16 saw his face shield kiss the -- kiss the hood. It kind 17 of just crumpled up in the hood. 18 I saw another one get hit and sent flying 19 backwards. I saw his arms go out and he landed on 20 another couple of public order members that I think 21 knocked them down. 22 He ended up on the ground which -- what 23 appeared to me his legs, underneath the hood. There was 24 another of them was struck by -- he kind of went off the 25 edge of the fender.
2411 So I saw him -- three (3) individuals, CMU 2 members, get hit by the front of the car. 3 The car then immediately reversed. There 4 was a squealing of tires. It went back about a -- I'd 5 say about a car length or maybe half a car length back. 6 And then it lurched -- I saw the front end come up and it 7 went to go forward again which it looked to me like he'd 8 reversed -- he threw it in reverse and then he just 9 slammed it in drive. 10 I already had my weapon out. I was 11 watching all this. I made up my mind to stop him. So I 12 ran -- I was about, actually the distance between you and 13 I, which I guess is about what, 20 feet or something; 14 15/20 feet. 15 I ran directly at him. I wanted to get in 16 close and I wanted to fire down because I wanted to make 17 sure there was no ricochet. I knew that there was 18 officers -- I could see all the officers to the front in 19 the ditch. I was pretty sure there was no officers on 20 the far side of the car and I knew the other public order 21 were off to the right, up the road. 22 And I could see no one between me and him, 23 but I still wanted to close the distance. So I ran 24 forward and I kind of stood -- stood high and fired down 25 into the driver's compartment; my recollection is two (2)
2421 to three (3) rounds. At that time, and I heard other 2 gunfire at the same time. 3 I also -- as I was firing, I saw a couple 4 of muzzle flashes that I thought were directed at me, 5 near the driver's mirror and -- and the left lower corner 6 of the windshield because the windshield lit up. 7 So there was flashes, muzzle flashes. 8 More than one (1). Two (2) to three (3) muzzle flashes, 9 right there at that time. 10 Vehicle immediately backed away. Again, I 11 was aware of other gunfire somewhere around the bus as 12 well. As the bus went by, I remember somebody yelled 13 out, there's fire coming from the bus. 14 There was a lot of things going on. I'm 15 making this actually sound -- this is all, by the way 16 twenty (20) seconds. I don't really rel -- I don't 17 really leave the middle of the road from the time the bus 18 goes by on the right until I run to the front of the car 19 to what's now going to happen. 20 So now I'm standing still on center road 21 and I don't know if somebody yelled, look out, or I 22 picked up on it, because I almost got hit by the bus. 23 Because of the riot helmets we have, they're a full motor 24 cycle helmet with Nomex lining and they have stereophonic 25 microphones right in your ears so if -- first of all, the
2431 helmet is full rubber seal. The shots sound very muffled 2 and if somebody had have transmitted, I would hear the 3 transmission, but I would not hear a bus. 4 So all of a sudden, I jumped out of the 5 way and the bus come flying by. I actually had -- I was 6 middle of the road, but I had backed -- backed parallel 7 with a -- some kind of a wooden -- wooden garbage 8 container. 9 I moved to the north towards the lake as 10 the bus went by. The bus was coming back in reverse 11 slower than it was on the way through the first time. I 12 was aware that there was public -- I could see public 13 order members because I -- that's where I almost got hit. 14 I'm looking down the road. I can see the 15 people off to the right, picking themselves up, like from 16 the first time when it went through. And I could see the 17 members trying to pick themselves up from the car. 18 So I'm -- I am now even more fearful of 19 this -- this bus is going to just keep coming back and 20 forth through the formation 'til it does its job. So as 21 the driver's door goes by I moved to the north and I fire 22 through the side door at the driver, one (1) -- one (1) 23 to two (2) rounds. I fired a total of four (4) rounds 24 that night, it's either three (3) and one (1), or it's 25 two (2) and two (2).
2441 I also, at that time, hear, as I move 2 towards the lake, away from the bus, somebody yells out, 3 Man on the road with a gun or a rifle, rifle I believe -- 4 man on the road. I remember hearing that and I take 5 cover at a wooden -- I don't know if it was for sand or 6 garbage. So I take a knee there. 7 Q: That's on the north side of the road? 8 A: North side of the road, I'd say 9 twenty (20) feet further back from the officers that got 10 hit by the car, so I'm -- I believe the furthest one 11 back. 12 I take a knee there. I hear a little bit 13 more gunfire. I yell out, Cease fire, cease fire, 14 because at this point I look up, the bus and the car have 15 somehow managed to both reverse and are sitting at the 16 edge of the sandy parking lot facing in our direction. 17 I -- I remember seeing the headlights, bus 18 and car, side by side, at the edge of the sandy parking 19 lot. I yell, Cease fire. I then step back out on the 20 road and yell, Reform. I reform. I'm in a box 21 formation. I think I run into a TRU team leader and tell 22 him to cover us. 23 I asked for a casualty count. I think 24 I've lost officers so I have each squad leader do a 25 casualty -- casualty count. They come back and tell me
2451 bruises, ankle. I ask them to account for everybody; 2 they say they've got everybody. I have a hard time 3 believing that. I tell them to do it again, just because 4 of the amount of violence, the amount of action that had 5 taken place, you know, the bus, the car, the bus again, 6 the gunfire. I didn't believe it myself. 7 I asked TRU team to check the -- the 8 ditches, both ditches with two (2) flank teams. I asked 9 them to check both the south ditch, north ditch, back at 10 least as far -- 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Can he just slow 12 down a bit. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Can you just slow down 14 a bit? 15 THE WITNESS: Sorry, I'm reliving it 16 there a little bit. 17 So I told them or asked them to please 18 check the two (2) ditches and basically they knew what I 19 meant, the contact area back as far as where we split, 20 which would be back another -- about thirty (30) metres. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And what was the purpose of that? 24 A: I was afraid we'd have a casualty in 25 the ditch, either one (1) of our officers or one (1) of
2461 the protestors. I thought there could be somebody down, 2 even though I felt the protestors were inside vehicles I 3 wasn't 100 percent sure, so I didn't want to leave any -- 4 we were leaving, and I didn't want to leave anybody 5 behind. So we double checked three (3) times, confirmed 6 that I had everybody. 7 So about face. TRU team now took the 8 opposite position now. They stayed behind, facing back 9 towards the Park to cover us. They stayed on the road, 10 four (4) of them, and we turned the box formation around 11 and we -- at the high trot back to the TOC. 12 Q: And the -- did you observe the bus 13 and the car go back into the Provincial Park? 14 A: I -- no. Last I -- the last image I 15 have is two (2) vehicles sitting side by side at the 16 entrance to the sandy parking lot. I -- and I don't -- I 17 don't know how the car got there at the end of it all and 18 I don't remember -- I don't even think I remember the 19 last part of the bus, and I certainly didn't see them go 20 back in the Park. 21 Q: Pardon me? Pardon me? I didn't 22 catch -- 23 A: I didn't see them go back in the 24 Park. 25 Q: Now, the -- a couple of things before
2471 we go to your notes in Exhibit P-438. You indicated that 2 -- made a reference to a burial ground? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: The fellow that came through the 6 turnstile, You're on sacred ground, burial ground. 7 Q: And prior to the comments made by the 8 -- the person who came through the turnstile, had you 9 been given any information as to a burial ground at the 10 Park, or in that area? 11 A: Never. 12 Q: And the -- when you were -- when you 13 fired your weapon -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- the -- you indicated you didn't 16 have your shield nor your baton. What happened to your 17 shield and the baton? 18 A: When a man struck my shield back on 19 the -- the full punch out, it busted in half and cracked 20 in two (2), fell to the ground in two (2) pieces. 21 Q: And your baton? 22 A: I must have stuck it back in my belt 23 to get it out of the way, because I was also using my -- 24 my microphone to transmit all this. So I'm right handed 25 I probably put it away.
2481 Q: And the -- when you fired your weapon 2 -- before you fired your weapon at the car, had you heard 3 any -- the sound of any gunshots? 4 A: My recollection is I heard some 5 popping noises as the bus was coming down the right on 6 the south shoulder. 7 Q: As it was going westbound? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall today where those 10 popping noises were coming from? 11 A: Just off to my right. 12 Q: And how many popping noises do you 13 recall hearing? 14 A: Pop, pop, pop. I -- I don't know, 15 three (3). 16 Q: Okay. And -- 17 A: I -- I mean, yes, heard popping. 18 Q: And the muzzle flash that you saw in 19 the black -- in the car -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- the car, when you shot at the car, 22 did -- you were standing looking at the -- to the side of 23 the car, looking towards the driver at the front 24 windshield? 25 A: Yeah, the car -- because the car went
2491 in the ditch on an angle and I was standing in the centre 2 of the road, so I'm looking at the Provincial Park, that 3 being twelve o'clock, the car driver's door would be ten 4 o'clock to me -- 5 Q: And -- 6 A: -- so he was basically oblique to me 7 and I turned and ran right at the door. 8 Q: And the muzzle flash that you saw -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- was where again? Can you des -- 11 A: It was -- well there was two (2) 12 things about that is, one (1) it was a circular muzzle 13 blast which, from my prior life, would tell me that it 14 was aimed in my direction, possibly. You know, there's 15 the one (1) that it's -- if it's aimed away from you 16 which elongated its -- it's shaped long and pointed. 17 This was a circular flash, I would say 18 down in -- okay, so that's to the driver's -- in the 19 lower portion of the driver's window, outside passenger 20 mirror, and the front left of the windshield area; it lit 21 up that windshield. 22 Q: And did -- did the -- either the 23 window or the windshield shatter when you saw this muzzle 24 flash? 25 A: No. I took it that -- I took it that
2501 the window, the side window was open. I think I even 2 wrote that in my notes. 3 Q: And how many muzzle flashes did you 4 see? 5 A: Like I say, I say a couple to -- I'd 6 say not -- not one (1), I'd say two (2) to three (3). 7 Q: And the -- there were officers on the 8 other side of the car? 9 A: Not directly across because I 10 certainly -- that's why I ran right up to the car when I 11 fired, to make sure there was nobody, like, standing on 12 the passenger side. They were to the left, all off the 13 hood. 14 So there was -- that's what I'm saying, 15 there was no officer between me and the door. And I ran 16 -- I'd say my second round went off, I was standing right 17 over top of the driver. 18 Q: And did you see anyone else in the 19 car? 20 A: No. I just saw one (1) silhouette. 21 Q: And that was the silhouette of the 22 driver. 23 A: Yeah. And again, there was all that 24 white light coming down from the Park; he was -- he was a 25 silhouette.
2511 Q: And I would ask you to turn to Tab 21 2 of your book. This is Exhibit P-438 and it's a copy of 3 the transcript of the march down the East Parkway Drive 4 by the CMU on the evening of September the 6th. 5 And do you recall -- have you listened to 6 this tape, Mr. Lacroix? 7 A: I've heard it once. 8 Q: And when was that, sir? 9 A: At, I think, the day of the 10 Commission coming. Other -- at my interview, I think. 11 Q: Your interview? So that was 12 recently? 13 A: Yeah, it was a month ago, I guess. 14 Q: Okay. And the -- you're identified 15 on the transcript, and Mr. Hebblethwaite is identified, 16 and Staff Sergeant -- then Staff Sergeant -- or acting 17 Staff Sergeant Skinner. And did you recognize those 18 voices on the transcript? 19 A: Yeah. I'd say the vast majority of 20 them I could recognize them, yeah. There was a few that 21 sounded a little -- little garbled. 22 It seemed fairly accurate, yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm going to put up on the 24 screen, and we actually have behind you on the -- on the 25 easel, but I guess the screen would probably be easier,
2521 if we just turn it around. 2 There's a hard copy of this, so it might 3 be easier, actually, for everybody's use to use the -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 5 sorry. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Now, the -- if you look at the 10 transcript. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: It identifies you as: 13 "At 10:27, CMU advanced slow pace. 14 Should be tenth of a K." 15 And what does that mean? 16 A: Yeah, I know -- I don't know if I 17 said a tenth of a K. I would have said it's about a K, I 18 thought, because I figured that that distance was 1 19 kilometre, roughly 1 kilometre. 20 So I don't know whether that should be a 21 tenth of a K. 22 Q: So what you're referring to there, 23 and we can check that, what you're referring to is that 24 it's a -- was the distance between where you were going 25 from the sandy parking lot -- I mean from the MNR parking
2531 lot, to the sandy parking lot. 2 A: My understanding is that was 1 3 kilometre. 4 Q: And the -- the reference that you 5 think should be there is to that 1 kilometre? 6 A: Yeah. I think I would have said it 7 should -- slow pace should be -- we should be going like 8 about a K. 9 I don't know if I said about there or what 10 sounds like a tenth. I don't know. I knew it was 1 K. 11 Q: Between...? 12 A: Between the TOC and the sandy parking 13 lot, a 1 kilometre march. I knew we were that because I 14 know that the portables ideally work within 1 kilometre 15 and that's why they'd set the TOC up where it was. 16 Q: Excuse me for a minute, Commissioner. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Unless -- I don't know why I'd say a 21 tenth of a K, but. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I'm going to play the first part of
2541 the transcript for Exhibit P-438. Except I don't know -- 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 4 5 Chatham Logger Tape 0146 - Track 12 6 "TAC" Channel for 06 September 1995 7 10:27 p.m. - 11:10 pm 8 (Current time: - 10:27) 9 10 LACROIX: ...tenth (10th) of a k. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 13 14 A: I don't know why I would have said -- 15 I don't know. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: But it -- did you hear that say -- 19 A: It sounded like a tenth of a K, yeah. 20 Q: And perhaps we'll just... 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 23 24 LACROIX: CMU advance slow pace should be tenth 25 (10th) of a k.
2551 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 2 3 A: You're sure -- okay. So you're sure 4 I'm not saying, seven-tenths (7/10's) of a K? Sorry. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 7 8 LACROIX: CMU advance slow pace should be tenth 9 (10th) of a k. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 12 13 THE WITNESS: All right. And I -- 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Pardon? 17 A: I might have got clipped on the radio 18 with the seventh, you know, or -- 19 Q: But -- 20 A: -- seven-tenths. 21 Q: -- you were trying to communicate at 22 that point was the distance down -- 23 A: Total distance. 24 Q: -- down the road? 25 A: Yes.
2561 Q: And then the -- the next line, and 2 this is a forty (40) minute transcript so we don't want 3 to play it all. 4 A: Okay. Yeah, no, the next part makes 5 sense because then I'm saying where we're going to go to. 6 Q: So you're -- you're -- this -- 7 "TOC to CMU, we're advancing to within 8 three hundred (300) -- three hundred 9 (300)." 10 And is that from the TOC or to the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: My understanding was to stop 300 13 metres out. So... 14 Q: Out? And that would be 300 metres 15 from the MNR parking lot? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Then there's an exchange between 18 yourself and -- and Sergeant Hebblethwaite? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And do you have any idea what today-- 21 A: When -- 22 Q: -- what Sergeant Hebblethwaite was 23 talking about, "I've got an idea"? 24 A: When he said I've just got an idea, 25 no, I don't.
2571 Q: Then you report: 2 "LACROIX: Okay. [And then it's 3 inaudible]. Good news, they've got 4 rocks and sticks piled up and we all 5 know we can beat that; rocks and 6 sticks, that's in our bailiwick. All 7 we have to worry about is little brown 8 stocks and black barrels. 9 Okay. We're going to -- advancing in a 10 moment. Advance." 11 And what was the source of the information 12 with respect to rocks and sticks piled up? 13 A: I believe I just got -- I just -- 14 before we pulled out and I don't know if that's what 15 George's little stop is. We got another update from TRU 16 that they were seen to be carrying sticks and piling 17 rocks. 18 Q: And -- but that was just before you 19 moved out from the MNR parking lot? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: So there was obviously a concern on 23 behalf of the CMU about weapons because again there was 24 something drifting around; nothing specific, I never got 25 anything specific, just a concern. So I was saying to
2581 them we just got a recent upgrade, it's sticks and it's 2 rocks, not guns. 3 Q: And when you were communicating at 4 this point you're communicating to the whole CMU. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: They can all hear you through the 7 radio? 8 A: They all have stereophonic in their 9 headsets -- in their helmets. 10 Q: Then there's -- you indicate: 11 "LACROIX: Stay in our pairs. 12 Whatever you do do not leave your 13 buddy." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And that's a reminder that the 16 officers were to -- to remain together to -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- they're paired up? 19 A: We always work in buddies but this 20 was eleven o'clock at night so it was especially 21 important to stay in pairs. 22 Q: And -- so that you knew where your 23 partner was? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Then --
2591 A: An officer safety issue, sorry. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: It's an officer safety issue. 4 Q: Yes. And then there's Alpha comes on 5 and then Lima 2 and then you report: 6 "Everybody off the air unless 7 somebody's hurt up or down or you hear 8 anything, any kind of noise, strange 9 noise." 10 And what did you mean by this? 11 A: Well, I did that because what just 12 happened there that shouldn't have happened. Alpha 13 walked in on a -- we're on attack and a unit not assigned 14 to me come in there and started talking. 10-3 means get 15 off the air. 16 Lima 2 said 10-3 so it jogged my memory to 17 tell everybody stay off the air because the worst thing 18 that can happen is that everybody's talking, right? So 19 when you need the airway guess what? You don't have it. 20 So I do a reminder, stay off the air everybody that's 21 listening out there unless you're hurt. 22 Q: And what's it mean, somebody's hurt 23 up or down? 24 A: Somebody's hurt up or down. Boy, I 25 don't know. I...
2601 Q: You mean somebody's hurt but you 2 can't remember today what you meant "up or down"? 3 A: No, unless -- I don't know, up and 4 down the line. I don't -- I don't... 5 Q: And were you ever told by anyone that 6 the deployment of the CMU was as a diversion to permit 7 the Sierra teams to get into place? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And would that have made any 10 difference to you? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And why? 13 A: Well, it all depends. Let me -- let 14 qualify that. As an -- as an old tactician if they were 15 going to use us to do something they needed to do 16 already, fine. But if somebody told me that I was taking 17 a CMU down that road merely to be a diversion, I -- I 18 would have had difficulty with that. 19 But if somebody said to me, well while you 20 are going down the road to do your mission, we're going 21 to take advantage of that as a distraction and to move in 22 closer, that's good tactics. 23 Q: Okay. And but no one mentioned 24 either that possibility to you? 25 A: No. I do not remember any such
2611 discussion. 2 Q: Then the -- there's an exchange about 3 -- "I see some lights." 4 And then Skinner comes on: 5 "CMU TAC 1 be advised you've been 6 spotted by their forward observers and 7 their forward observers are 8 retreating." 9 Q: And, Commissioner, this is at six (6) 10 minutes and fifty-seven (57) seconds into the 11 transmission that's at 10:34 p.m. 12 And then you give an order to the centre 13 pole and what are you referring to? Do you recall today? 14 A: I have no recollection. 15 Q: And were you -- at the time were 16 there hydro poles along East Parkway Drive? 17 A: There was. And I was trying to count 18 them. Because I figured they're approximately 50 metres 19 apart. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: So I was trying to calculate out when 22 I was approximately 300 metres away. But I don't know if 23 I'm looking at a pole and said to the centre pole. I 24 don't. 25 Q: And were there street lights on East
2621 Parkway Drive in night -- on the evening of September 2 6th, 1995? 3 A: I don't believe so. I know it was a 4 -- we had pretty good ambient light. It was -- like if 5 it wasn't a full moon, it was almost a full moon so, but 6 I don't remember street lights. 7 Q: And okay -- then there's a command, 8 "everybody stay alert, spread out" and you're in the box 9 formation at this point in time? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And the command 'spread out' what's 12 that refer to? 13 A: Well they were probably getting too 14 tight. It's not -- even though it's a box formation they 15 still shouldn't get so tight because they become a 16 target. 17 Q: Okay. And then it's: 18 "LACROIX: Watch vehicle." 19 And an officer's reported to say: 20 "That's TRU in the vehicle". 21 A: Yeah I believe the IAP team might 22 have taken their Econoline Van forward. The IAP team I 23 think had a vehicle parked on the side of the road that 24 we went around. That's my -- 25 Q: Recollection?
2631 A: Right. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: It wasn't a vehicle coming at us. It 4 was I believe a parked vehicle. 5 Q: It was a parked vehicle? Then you 6 call 'halt' and 'dressing shields down'. What's that 7 refer to? At the bottom of the second page. 8 A: Oh I -- I just gave them a bit of a 9 break. Like they're marching with the shields up, I've 10 called a halt like I probably done it. Not everything's 11 going to be on the air either. 12 You might -- you're picking up something 13 that when it's open and I probably said, Stand at ease, 14 you know, Shields down. You know, I -- I'm putting them 15 at a rest -- a rest position. 16 Q: Okay. And the -- when -- we have a 17 transcript of the transmissions that came over the 18 Tactical channel. 19 A: You do? 20 Q: This is -- this transcript -- 21 A: Oh, oh, this Tactical, not TRU team. 22 Q: Not TRU team. 23 A: Okay, sorry, because that's another 24 tactical. 25 Q: Yeah. This -- this is called --
2641 A: Yeah, you're on a TAC. 2 Q: -- TAC channel for September 6th, 3 1995, Tape 0146 Track 12 for the CMU. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Now not all of your commands from 6 what you've said came across the radio. 7 A: No. They -- and they're not by 8 policy and they're not by training. 9 Q: And why were some picked up on the 10 radio and some were not picked up on the radio? 11 A: First of all, in -- in the CMU 12 training that we go through, really you start out -- I 13 would yell, Cordon formation, right? George repeat 14 Cordon formation. Every team leader repeat Cordon 15 formation, every Member yell, Well moving into Cordon 16 formation, Cordon formation, so you haven't got all that. 17 Like there's just a den of yelling. When 18 I yelled "Halt" they all yelled "halt". When I said, 19 "shields down" they all went shields down. You don't 20 have all that. 21 Q: So that's part -- 22 A: The -- 23 Q: -- of your training -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- that when the officer in charge
2651 gives a command, it's repeated by the whole unit? 2 A: That's right. So really, the 3 communication within a union -- unit are verbal and are 4 to be repeated. Yelled and repeated. Very -- it is very 5 militaristic, okay? 6 The helmets at the time did not have the 7 boom mics for the leaders that they have today. We had 8 the same helmet as the men which was just this -- the 9 speakers. 10 So I'm using a mitre box. Okay, just a 11 regular mitre box off a regular portable, clipped to my 12 side. So I'm trying to bend my head over and speak into 13 this mitre box. 14 And if you don't remember to either turn 15 it on or if you don't remember to turn it off, which 16 quite often happens, you have talk going on here that's 17 just, it's open. 18 Or the guy beside you has a open mic and 19 you happen to be hear -- that could be why you're hearing 20 all of this. 21 The ones that are not specifically going 22 back to the TOC, could all be open mic. The other 23 problem is, TRU team's on another channel. Supposedly 24 completely distinctly different. 25 However, I know for a fact, that if a TRU
2661 team person -- 'cause it's still the same radio, and 2 radio frequencies have energy. If he gets too close to 3 me, there can be some crossover. 4 So you -- you know, and then you've got 5 TRU team which is missing here, right and TRU team called 6 some stuff. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: TRU team channel is also a lot of 9 activity. So anyway, there could have been an open mic. 10 Q: And that's why we picked up all of 11 these controls, other than com -- other than the 12 communications you wanted to make with the TAC? 13 A: That's right. 'Cause even though the 14 men are not supposed to transmit, they had mitre boxes. 15 Q: And where is the control for the -- 16 the mitre box is a mic -- 17 A: A lot of them would -- yeah, what 18 happens is, you know, it snaps on to the radio. So you 19 don't want to use the one right in the radio. Theirs 20 sits in a sleeve high up on their shoulder, in their body 21 armour. 22 There's a cord that goes on it. If 23 they're left handed, they'll clip it somewhere to their 24 body armour left, or they'll clip it to their body armour 25 right.
2671 I had it clipped to my body armour right. 2 So I've got to press to talk right on it, okay? Then 3 they had a wire that came out of it that come out of the 4 back of the helmet they snapped into the external 5 speaker. 6 So they had stereo coming out of the radio 7 but they had the talk they used here, but they're told, 8 don't use it unless you absolutely have to. 9 Let the commanders use the radio. But 10 even us, we're supposed to -- still, everything we say, 11 you're supposed to yell. 12 Q: And so that if someone -- someone 13 could click his -- his or her microphone and leave it on? 14 A: Yeah, you could hear -- you could 15 hear -- yeah, we're close enough, you'd hear us yelling. 16 Q: And then there's a command -- Lacroix 17 -- there's a transmission page 3: 18 "TOC to CMU. Lacroix TOC to CMU. 19 SKINNER: CMU TOC 1. Go ahead. 20 LACROIX: TOC 1, CMU, 2 to 300 metres 21 out awaiting instructions." 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And why were you asking for 24 instructions? 25 A: Well, in the OPP there's the incident
2681 commanders are taught a thing called phase lines. It -- 2 it's just to allow the incident commander to know where 3 you are relative to the objective. 4 So when I was talking to John back at 5 Forest, he said proceed down the road to the 300 metre 6 mark and then, you know, check in. 7 It's -- there's a thing that goes along 8 with it, is -- is called recall authority. Up to a point 9 like that, it's very, very easy to that phase line to 10 recall. 11 Incident commander wants to change his 12 mind, all bets are off. Turn around, come back. At the 13 300 yard mark, you check in. He can -- it gives him the 14 ability to say, recall. 15 Or give you an update in intelligence. If 16 not, it's plan as briefed. It's just a -- then it's just 17 a phase line that you've crossed. 18 In TRU you use phase line, yellow phase 19 line, green. 20 So in a sense, I just passed phase line 21 yellow. He would understand all this from TRU team 22 training and from Level 2 incident command. 23 It was just a place, a point relative to 24 the kilometre, to check back in. So, you know, just 25 here. We want to check back in with each other, are we
2691 still a go? 2 You a go, are you -- am I okay? Yeah, are 3 you okay? And if he doesn't come on or, you know. 4 Q: So what happens here is you're 2 to 5 300 metres out from the MNR parking lot? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Skinner says, stand by. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Then Lacroix, there's something 10 inaudible from Sierra 1. Then Skinner: 11 "Sierra 1, what's going on with the 12 spotlights?" 13 Then you overhear that but your reference 14 to Sierra 1 is what? Do you recall today? 15 A: You know, okay, Oh, I want an 16 update. I'm standing there, 300 metres out. Again, all 17 along here we've been told two (2) Sierra teams are out, 18 you know. I know that they were having difficulty before 19 I left to get into position. 20 I'm like, are they in position now? Do we 21 have an update? Like, I do something about update from 22 Sierra 1, like I've stopped. What have you got? That's 23 exactly what the phase line is, it's a pause to say, How 24 are we doing? Any new intelligence? 25 So I probably said, Update from Sierra 1.
2701 Q: And then Skinner overheard Sierra 1, 2 what's going on with the spotlights? 3 A: So he calls them on my behalf, Hey, 4 Sierra 1, what's going on. 5 Q: And for the benefit of everyone at 6 this point it's nine (9) minutes into the transmission. 7 It would be 10:36 p.m. according to this transmission 8 which would not be a telephone call so that we don't need 9 to add the seven (7) minutes. 10 Then there's a transmission from Sergeant 11 Hebblethwaite: 12 "Talked to CMU. Anything from Sierra 1 13 please? 14 Then -- 15 A: So -- so -- my number 2 is standing 16 right beside me. 17 Q: I appreciate that. So that -- 18 A: So -- he's now coming in on my 19 behalf. Hey, we want an updated. Like we're both 20 standing there. We're probably even having some 21 conversation and when I'm not getting through, he's 22 trying to get through. 23 Q: And then he -- there's a second 24 transmission and then Skinner comes back: 25 "CMU from TAC 1, the spotlights are
2711 from the occupants and they're roaming 2 wildly." 3 And what did you take from that 4 transmission? 5 A: Well, from our training they tell us 6 about -- if you back to what you referred to me this 7 morning about the different types of groups it's not a 8 good sign, some of the crowd dynamics, you know, they 9 call it bristling. They call it milling. 10 When you see them starting to mill about 11 and there's just a lot of activity and you see them with 12 sticks and there's just like a hub bub, that's -- that's 13 not a good sign. That means that the sign is -- the 14 crowd is not one of your orderly crowds, it's more than 15 likely one of your disorderly crowds. 16 Q: Okay. And this, Commissioner, is at 17 9:37 -- nine (9) minutes and thirty-seven (37) seconds in 18 to the transmission. 19 And then there's another exchange, Hebble 20 -- Mr. Hebblethwaite asks about Sierra 1: 21 "Is it in position?" 22 And Skinner comes back: 23 "Standby." 24 And then comes back at 10:24 into the 25 transmission:
2721 "CMU to TAC 1, advising Sierra 1 and 2 Sierra 2 are not, repeat, not in 3 position." 4 And then Mr. Hebblethwaite at 5 approximately 10:37 says: 6 "Copy. Copy." 7 So at this point in time you're told 8 Sierra 1 and Sierra 2 are not in position? 9 A: That's right. So no update. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: So you're also a little bit on your 12 own and so I then called advance one (1) hydro pole. 13 Q: And that's approximately 10:41 p.m. 14 And you advance one (1) hydro pole and then you give a 15 command or it's heard over the radio: 16 "Spread out especially Contact Squad 17 from the other squad. Give yourself a 18 little bit of space." 19 You're just trying to tell them -- you're 20 telling them to -- 21 A: We're getting -- 22 Q: -- spread out a bit? 23 A: -- we're getting closer. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Now, I'm starting to spread out that
2731 box formation because they're too tight. 2 Q: And then the next transmission which 3 is at fifteen (15) minutes and fifteen (15) seconds into 4 the -- on the -- on the tape or approximately 10:42 5 there's a transmission from Skinner: 6 "CMU be advised of party on the road, 7 may have a weapon in his hand." 8 And then at 15:23 -- it says "Deane" on 9 this, Mr. Lacroix, but it's Mr. Skinner, it should be. 10 A: Is it Skinner? 11 Q: It's Skinner. 12 A: Because I -- because they have the 13 capacity to come over. They can switch channels. 14 Q: Mr. -- Sergeant Skinner said it was 15 him -- it was him. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: "TAC to CMU person down the road. 18 Does have a weapon. Does have a 19 weapon." 20 And then you give the command that you've 21 told us about: 22 "Split right. Split left and go down 23 on your knee." 24 And that's when the -- the team splits to 25 both sides of the road and goes down on its knee?
2741 A: Yeah, I put them actually right off 2 towards the bush so they were kind of invisibly deployed. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: They were a little bit invisibly 5 deployed. They were in the dark, well off the road, 6 kneeling in the underbrush. 7 Q: And on either side of the road? 8 A: Either side of the road. 9 Q: And then the -- there's a 10 transmission from Mr. Hebble -- Sergeant Hebblethwaite 11 that you've taken cover and then Hebblethwaite: 12 "TAC to CMU, confirm one (1) man with 13 weapon, long gun." 14 And that's at 17:50, the time on the 15 transmission it would be 10:44. 16 And then Skinner comes on: 17 "CMU from TAC 1, are you holding your 18 position? 19 HEBBLETHWAITE: 10-4. CMU's holding 20 position." 21 And then: 22 'SKINNER: Subject is believed to be 23 armed." 24 That's at 18:40, approximately 10:45. And 25 then there's -- appears at the top of page 5, there's a
2751 problem with -- 2 A: Comms. 3 Q: -- with the communications and Mr. 4 Hebble -- Sergeant Hebblethwaite says that: 5 "TAC 1 you're cutting yourself out at 6 the start. Go ahead CMU." 7 A: On the TAC you have to do that. 8 There's a digital prep that you have -- when you push 9 first it has to tell the tower that you're ready to talk. 10 So you have to pause a bit to make it -- 11 Q: To make it -- 12 A: There's a little digital connect. 13 Q: To -- to engage the communications. 14 A: And if you forget about that and you 15 talk right away, you cut yourself out. 16 Q: All right. Then at approximately 17 10:46, Sergeant Skinner indicates: 18 "CMU confirms the subject has a stick 19 that has been confirmed by Romeo, 20 stick." 21 And did you know who Romeo was -- what it 22 was referred to as Romeo? 23 A: Romeo was a recy team Member, scout - 24 - scout he'd be probably on Alpha team. He would have 25 been under Dean's element.
2761 Q: And the Alpha team was the IAP team. 2 A: IAP team. 3 Q: The IAP stands for -- 4 A: Immediate Action Plan. 5 Q: Action Plan. 6 A: But it's usually done by Alpha and 7 Alpha usually is the assaulters. They control the recy 8 team so Romeo probably would have been a part of Alpha. 9 Q: And so that I believe there were two 10 (2) Members in each Alpha team, there were two (2) Alpha 11 teams out and two (2) Members in each Sierra team and 12 there are two (2) Sierra teams out. 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: There were eight (8) members of the 15 TRU team out. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Then there's an exchange about 18 whether the Sierra team is in position and at the top of 19 page 6, Sergeant -- acting Staff Sergeant Skinner says: 20 " Alpha and Sierra 2 can cover your 21 position." 22 And: 23 "SKINNER: CMU TAC 1, do you copy? " 24 And then current time 10:48 and it's 25 recorded:
2771 "HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that, copy we're 2 engaging. 3 LACROIX: Keep your distance, spread 4 out." 5 And the -- what's that referring to, Mr. 6 Lacroix? You're engaging? 7 A: I mean, it all ties into what I said 8 about -- this is all going on, you know, as we stop for 9 all this person with a rifle and we're trying to get eyes 10 on with Sierra and we can't. 11 And I step forward one (1) hydro pole 12 covered by Alpha. That -- we -- us getting lit up all 13 happens about then. So we're doing all this talk about 14 what are they doing now and then all of a sudden we're 15 very visible. 16 And they know we're there and we know 17 they're there and it's obvious and than he gave us Alpha 18 and Sierra can cover your position. All that before was, 19 are we covered and do we have intelligence and then it 20 was a little bit of a mute point because we were like now 21 about two hundred (200) metres away from each other. 22 And so when we came on the air and said, 23 "we're engaging", it meant, you know, involving 24 ourselves, engagement like engaging in a gear of a car, 25 enacting the plan, we're going to --
2781 Q: Move forward. 2 A: -- move forward. 3 Q: And it didn't mean that you're 4 engaging with the -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- occupiers physically, but you were 7 going to move down East Parkway Drive? 8 A: I take it by all this back and forth, 9 back and forth, I've got to about 200 metres from them. 10 But now we're standing right out, looking right at them 11 and they're looking at us and so now all this 12 conversation is, you know. 13 And then finally Kent says, "Alpha and 14 Sierra 2 can cover you." 15 Q: And then -- 16 A: So we then back to the plan. 17 Q: So that -- then we hear some other 18 commands about Mr. Hebblethwaite and you are giving 19 commands for your contact squad according to: 20 "HEBBLETHWAITE: Back up, contact 21 squad back up. 22 LACROIX: Right cover, back up a bit." 23 A: Let's keep -- 24 Q: And what do you -- do you recall what 25 you're referring to there?
2791 A: Yeah. We've broken in a -- we've 2 broken into cordon? I must have -- must have yelled 3 cordon. We're watching their dressing. 4 So we're now engaged in closing the last 5 200 metres. We're walking towards those people with the 6 lights and the ATV in the parking lot. What's starting 7 to happen, the contact squad is getting, you know, a 8 little ahead and the right cover's dropping back a bit, 9 so we're doing it -- we're yelling out. 10 Now that's the one where you got, like, an 11 open mic. That's not us expecting -- that's not me 12 calling TOC to say that. That's just us -- you're 13 hearing some of the hold up, move up, back up, slow down. 14 That's just the two (2) of us controlling 15 the formation. 16 Q: And then can you tell from this 17 transmission when you enter the sandy parking lot at the 18 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Well, I mean, look at the statement. 23 It's -- it's all that -- I think it's -- that's breaking 24 out into the -- that is all transmission breaking into 25 the cordon formation.
2801 That, contact squad, back up. They're 2 getting a little too far ahead. Right, back up. Okay. 3 Back, back, back. They got a little too far and I think 4 I do a halt in there because then you hear me go, Hey, 5 they're on Provincial property. 6 So that -- that's -- I think all that 7 conversation is we yelled out, Cordon formation, and then 8 you're hearing us, Dress them. 9 Then you're hearing us as we halt in front 10 of the fence go, They're on Provincial property. 11 Q: And as you entered the -- as you 12 entered the sandy parking lot, which on this -- on the 13 photograph that -- this is actually a part of -- I think 14 it's Exhibit P-437B actually. 15 The -- and this is not a -- this 16 photograph is from -- aerial photograph is from a later 17 time, Mr. Lacroix. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: But as you enter the sandy parking 20 lot, the -- when you go into the -- the team went into 21 the cordon position. Did it enter the sandy parking lot 22 in the cordon position -- in the cordon formation? 23 A: No, I believe we crossed into here, 24 in box, and as I soon as I got clear of this -- these 25 bushes here, and this little bush here, like, I think I
2811 broke into cordon about -- about here. 2 As soon as I could get them spread out, as 3 we went through this, I'll call it a choke point, I think 4 I went into that choke point in a box formation, and 5 right about there we split into a cordon and really never 6 got our dressing until we stopped at that -- my position, 7 thirty (30) feet out from the fence. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: So that's with all the scurrying to 10 get into that position. 11 Q: And then there's a command, Skinner, 12 you say: 13 LACROIX: They're on the Provincial 14 property -- property. [and then] 15 SKINNER: 10-4, take up a defensive 16 position. 17 LACROIX: Contact squad, back up 18 slowly." 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: This -- 22 Q: -- what's happening there? 23 A: And then that's when I think my 24 friend with the pole comes through the turnstile. 25 Q: And the turnstile is along the
2821 fence -- 2 A: It was about in there -- 3 Q: And you're pointing to an area in -- 4 just on this draw -- photograph there's a road that runs, 5 it's not as visible anymore, but on this drawing the -- 6 can you tell us, the kiosk was over here, the gatehouse? 7 A: Yeah. The kiosk was here, the store 8 was in here, in there. That's -- 9 Q: And -- 10 A: -- the foundation of the store, I 11 think. 12 Q: The store foundation appears to be on 13 the picture in the area just below the road that runs 14 from the left hand side to the right hand side, an 15 extension really appears on this photograph of East 16 Parkway Drive -- 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And the -- 19 A: The bus was parked right where your 20 marker is, like right there. 21 Q: In the area where the -- in the 22 parking lot where it appears to be the road and the -- 23 how far north of that was the turnstile? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2831 A: Okay. The frontage is, I'd say, 40 2 feet. I just want to -- you're right, all this kind of 3 sand was not like that. This -- these -- this part -- 4 these two (2), at that time, looked to be groomed both on 5 the Park side and the road allowance side. 6 I think the Township would come down and 7 plow that and that was plowed part -- because I remember 8 being there in the summer, all kinds of cars parked here 9 and cars parked here. 10 And in the middle of this parking lot was 11 a page wire fence. It did not have all the poplars and 12 bushes and -- and the snow fence and cement stones. It 13 was just a page wire fence and it had a little turnstile 14 about forty (40) feet from this gate. And like -- 15 Q: Perhaps I'll -- 16 A: Sorry. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: You're right, that -- that road went - 21 - like there was a gate right there, but that road looked 22 like it went right through. 23 Q: Yeah. I'm just going to show a 24 photograph, Commissioner. 25
2841 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, this is photograph number 5. 4 And this is a photograph that's facing -- it says north 5 on East Parkway Drive, showing gate leading to the Park. 6 But it's taken from the -- this was taken on the -- on 7 September -- I believe September 18th or 19th, after the 8 event and we know that that -- 9 A: Wasn't there. 10 Q: -- wasn't there and the pile of sand 11 on the right-hand side wasn't there in the evening. And 12 you will see there's a fence that's near a berm that was 13 there on the evening of September the 6th. 14 But the fence, is that the fence -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- that the dumpster was at? 17 A: Yeah, it would be. 18 Q: And you'll see there's -- just to the 19 left of it there is a turnstile. I don't know if you can 20 see that clearly on this photograph, but on the original 21 photograph there's a turnstile right there? 22 A: And there wasn't another one further 23 down? 24 Q: And we've never seen a photograph 25 of --
2851 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- another one further down, although 3 there are photographs of the fence being down -- further 4 down. 5 A: My -- my recollection was it was 6 further, but. 7 Q: Further down? 8 A: Well you have a picture of it so 9 there it is. 10 Q: And perhaps we'll just mark that 11 exhibit, we've referred to it as picture number 5, as 12 the next exhibit and we'll get a copy? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1456, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1456. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT No. P-1456: Photograph number 5; Facing 17 north on East Parkway Drive 18 showing gate leading to Park. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And so the -- at this point in time 22 you back up slowly and the gentleman that -- the first 23 gentleman comes out that's speaking of his land and -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- and the -- then at 10:54 there's a
2861 command that's overheard, Shield chatter? 2 A: Yes, because after we did that punch- 3 out then the bricks and pipes and firebrands really 4 started coming; that's when the pounding on the hoods 5 and, you know, the screaming and hollering came. So then 6 I ordered shield chatter. 7 Q: And so this was at the -- the punch- 8 out where the first gentleman -- 9 A: This was after the punch-out. 10 Q: After the punch-out? And -- 11 A: Now, mind you, I think the tactic of 12 the day, I'd have to check, when they punched out they 13 too -- they run at this person to back him off. I can't 14 remember if they don't do individual shield chatter. I 15 can't... 16 Q: But it was your recollection, as you 17 told us earlier, that the first person that came out that 18 spoke of the burial -- the sacred land, he went back into 19 the Park? 20 A: Yes. Yes, he did. 21 Q: And then on page 7 of Exhibit 438 22 there's a reference at 10:55 p.m., Mr. Hebblethwaite: 23 "TOC from CMU, be advised that we're at 24 the perimeter. The badgers are within 25 the bounds of the Park. The badgers
2871 are in the Park, over." 2 And that's at twenty-six (26) minutes and 3 forty (40) seconds into the transmission. And what's 4 that referring to? 5 A: In our -- in our call signs, an 6 innocent is a dove. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: A policeman is a leopard and a 9 suspect is a badger. So it's the call sign for a 10 suspect. 11 Q: And so do we take it from this that 12 the -- the occupiers are back in the Park? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And that the CMU or at least a 15 portion of the CMU's at the perimeter of the Park? 16 A: Yeah we're at the perimeter and he's 17 trying to tell them the same message I was trying to tell 18 them is that they're not out in the sandy parking lot. 19 They're not in the County domain. They are inside the 20 Provincial Park. 21 We're standing at the perimeter but he 22 wants to let them know those badgers are already in, like 23 mission completed. 24 Q: And so this is the second time 25 they're back into the Park?
2881 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then Skinner says for you to hold 3 your position. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And then Skinner says: 6 "CMU TAC 1, are you in position of 7 cover?" 8 A: And we say no. 9 Q: And Hebblethwaite says no and that's 10 at 28:09. Then: 11 "TAC 1, CMU TAC 1, take cover and 12 maintain your position." 13 A: That's -- 14 Q: And that's -- you back them up to the 15 pavement? 16 A: That's where no offense to my 17 counterpart at the TOC, that's not really his call. So I 18 finally took command as the CMU commander. He basically 19 said, hold position but take cover where you are. 20 I'm standing there, we've told him, we're 21 not in a defensive position so then I step in as 22 commander and say we're backing out. So I -- you know, 23 what I'm saying like he can't see what we can see so 24 that's just me coming on saying 'back up, back up to the 25 pavement'.
2891 Q: And then you back up to the corner of 2 East Parkway and Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yes, sir. Right here, sir. 4 Q: And the fence that you refer to that 5 was behind your back was the fence at the -- on the lot 6 that's on the south side of East Parkway and the west 7 side of Army Camp Road? 8 A: That's right. There's a brand new 9 page wire fence that went up like that. But it was of 10 course like a little bit inside of that -- 11 Q: Yeah. That's -- the -- the fence is 12 -- it was at the edge of the property. 13 A: Right. Yeah. 14 Q: And then the next transmission is at 15 29:52. 16 "LACROIX: Get ready for it. Get 17 ready." 18 And then the next transmission's at thirty 19 (30) minutes and thirty (30) seconds. And actually I've 20 listened to this, this says 'ready, ready.' 21 A: It does say 'ready', okay. 22 Q: And then 'go, go'. 23 A: Well the bottom line of -- of the 24 'go' command is there is usually a preparatory -- a 25 preparatory command before the 'go'.
2901 Q: Yes. And now this is -- what's 2 happening here? 3 A: So that's as I said we're -- I'm 4 standing here on the pavement, front contact squad is 5 over here somewhere. 6 Q: Your squad is spread out. 7 A: And left covers off that way, right 8 covers down Army Camp. 9 Q: Just for the purposes of the record, 10 the front cover -- the contact squad's on the sandy 11 parking lot -- 12 A: They're out in here in this gap. 13 Q: And just between the -- the west side 14 of the road and the north side of the road, the sandy 15 parking lot? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then your left cover is along 18 East Parkway and your right cover's on Army Camp Road? 19 A: I believe the right cover was 20 stretched out along Army Camp. George and I would have 21 been right in here on pretty close to the edge of the 22 pavement. 23 Left cover kind of went up that way but I 24 thought there was -- I didn't think there was that much 25 bush there. We're off kind of like that. The rest --
2911 the CMU arrest is right there almost on the edge of the 2 -- of the shoulder and then I don't know where Wayde 3 Jacklin's crew is. 4 And they find a -- you asked me what was 5 happening then. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: The extreme right rank of the right 8 cover says we have an obstruction on the road. And I 9 just glanced over, it looked to be boulders and logs, 10 said, take care of it. 11 And I don't know what squad took care of 12 it. And then I look up and there are First Nations -- 13 well I don't know if they're First Nations, there are -- 14 Q: People coming out of the Park? 15 A: -- demonstrators coming out of that 16 turnstile and the gate running across, picking up rocks 17 as they go, you know, kind of running out lopping rocks 18 about halfway but then they got about here halfway and 19 they picked up speed and made a full run at the front 20 contact squad which would have been out -- some out here 21 by themselves. 22 Q: And at this point in time, had you 23 arrested anyone? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: And then the command, "go, go" was to
2921 -- was the punchout command? 2 A: That was a full unit punch out, which 3 would be 50 feet to your front at, you know, full trot. 4 Q: And then the -- so this is the second 5 punch out? 6 A: But yeah, but this one's a full unit 7 punch out, the -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- other one was just a squad punch 10 out. 11 Q: And then the next transmission is: 12 "LACROIX: Right contact close in. 13 You're going to get caught with this 14 fence behind your back. Right contact, 15 right cover I mean right cover close to 16 the left." 17 And that's at approximately 33:50 into the 18 transmission. And then, 19 "HEBBLETHWAITE: Back-em up." 20 And what's happening there? 21 A: So we -- okay, right contact close it 22 up you're going to get caught with fence behind your 23 back. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2931 A: So this -- this has got to be -- this 2 -- so again, we -- it's just like I say, when you're -- 3 the word about this prisoner being taken care of but by 4 the look of this, this is us backing back to the road. 5 So this is after we've done the punch out 6 through the demonstrators, a couple of them had been 7 knocked down. The remainder of them have run back inside 8 the Park and we're back into the road again. 9 I mean, we're saying, clear to the road. 10 Back up clear to the road. I mean -- Lima 2, prisoner -- 11 you know, we must get that prisoner van out of there, so 12 I don't know how much time it is. 13 It wouldn't surprise me if it's only two 14 (2) minutes. 15 Q: And -- and was this the point at this 16 movement that the -- the -- the person was arrested? 17 A: Yes, yes. This is -- so, during the 18 punch out running forward, there's an altercation with 19 myself and then I don't know how many other individual 20 altercations with CMU and protesters. 21 I knew that my assailant went down and I 22 thought I saw at least two (2) more down on the ground as 23 I ran forward. But when I ran -- I lost them as I ran 24 forward. So we ended up at that 30 feet back on the 25 fence line.
2941 I looked back. There was arrests being 2 made. I later found out only one (1) actual arrest had 3 been made. I was surprised by that, but I took it it was 4 just because of the equipment in their hands, they 5 actually did not manage to effect arrest. 6 And so then that's me now back into the 7 road again. We've made an arrest. We have one (1) in 8 custody, in the prisoner van. 9 Somewhere along the line, one (1) of the - 10 - I believe a sergeant tells me we think we have a 11 leader. I ask him why. He comes up to my shoulder. I 12 believe he shows me a portable, said he was seen using 13 this. 14 One (1) of our tactics to actually, in 15 crowd dispersal, is to pinpoint leaders and to try to 16 arrest leaders. If you take away the leaders, the cloud 17 -- the crowd's momentum, you know, drops and hopefully 18 they slowly go home. 19 So I was satisfied we had one (1) in 20 custody in the prisoner van. He seemed to be a leader I 21 wanted to get, so that's me. Let's get out of here. 22 So we're backing back. What am I saying? 23 Back clear to the road. 24 Q: And then the -- at thirty-five (35) 25 minutes into the transmission, this is thirty-five (35)
2951 minutes and thirteen (13) seconds there's -- you yell, 2 "Shots fired, shots fired". 3 A: Yeah. And I would believe that that 4 would be those popping noises that I heard off to my 5 right when the bus was coming through. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: When you asked me how many popping 8 noises. 9 Q: And then there's a male but I believe 10 it's you, indicate, "Hold your fire." 11 Were you the one who gave the command, 12 "Hold your fire"? This is on page 9. 13 A: That one (1) there, I don't think is 14 me. 15 Q: No? 16 A: No. I don't believe so. 17 Q: Did someone else -- 18 A: Maybe, maybe. 19 Q: Did someone else give a command to 20 hold your fire? 21 A: I -- I'm the only one I remember 22 screaming out, hold fire or cease fire. So I guess -- I 23 guess -- I guess you're right. It's just I don't -- it's 24 over that fast, yeah, okay. 25 Q: And, well perhaps what we'll do...
2961 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yeah, I guess I did say it. I did 4 yell out, hold fire. I thought I said cease fire, but... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: I'm going to start playing this at 10 thirty-four (34) minutes and forty-one (41) seconds into 11 the transmission. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 13 you start, I know you want to, we're going to do that but 14 I know you want to try to finish tonight and I know 15 you're close but I don't want to go too much longer so 16 we'll see how far we get. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what I think we 18 should do actually is just finish this aspect of it and 19 then break until tomorrow morning because it -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You still -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I still have a ways to 22 go. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We'll 24 do that. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But I would like to
2971 finish this. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: So we're starting at 34:41. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 9 10 (Elapsed time: - 34:41) 11 12 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2 13 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2 14 LIMA 1: Lima 1 you calling or Lima 2 you 15 calling 16 LIMA 2: Lima 1 Lima 2 they want an ambulance 17 18 (Current time: - 11:03 P.M.) 19 20 MALE: ten - four (10-4) (I/A)... 21 LACROIX: shots fired shots fired....(I/A) 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2981 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 2 A: That's me. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 LACROIX: shots fired shots fired....(I/A) 7 8 MALE: (I/A) ...yelling (sound of gunfire and 9 revving engine) 10 MALE: hold your fire 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 16 A: That's me. 17 Q: And that's at approximately 35:21 18 into the transmission. 19 Then the -- at this point in time the -- 20 you fired your -- your weapon, the bus has gone out and 21 gone back, the car's gone back and then an ambulance is 22 called for. 23 Did you -- who called for the ambulance? 24 A: Looks like one (1) of the prisoner 25 vans did.
2991 Q: And did you -- did you know at the 2 time what the ambulance was for? 3 A: No, I just knew they were calling an 4 ambulance. 5 Q: And then the -- Mr. -- Sergeant 6 Hebblethwaite page 9, this is at approximately 36:40 asks 7 for the -- bring the prisoner van down to the CMU and 8 then Lima 2 says: 9 "The ambulance down to CMU. 10 HEBBLETHWAITE: 10-4. Bring it here up 11 behind the prisoner van. Tell it to 12 stay about two hundred (200) yards 13 back." 14 And then you're heard to be yelling: 15 "Back behind the van. I want a count 16 behind the van. I want a count." 17 And then an order: 18 "Form up. Form them up two (2) lines." 19 Then there's a transmission from Alpha 20 which is at thirty-seven (37) minutes and thirty-two (2) 21 seconds and then Lacroix: 22 "Do a count here -- from here behind 23 this prisoner van. Report to me." 24 Then Lacroix: 25 "Contact Squad -- take the front
3001 Contact Squad. Take the front left 2 cover, right cover." 3 And do you recall today what you're 4 referring to there, Mr. Lacroix? 5 A: Yeah, I had -- as I said earlier I -- 6 I went back down the road to find a place to re-form 7 after I got up behind that garbage container or whatever 8 it was. I wanted to reform them to get them out of 9 there. That's me doing the reform -- reform on me, over 10 on me, then I'm putting them in a box formation. 11 Q: To march back down the road? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And then you report: 14 "Skinner --" 15 You go: 16 "LACROIX: TOC from CMU. 17 SKINNER: Go ahead, CMU." 18 And that's at thirty-nine (39) minutes and 19 thirty-eight (38) seconds. 20 "LACROIX: We took gunfire from a car. 21 A bus tried to run us over. We 22 returned fire. We have no casualties 23 that I can count -- I -- that I can 24 account for everyone. Everybody seems 25 to be accounted for."
3011 Then: 2 "SKINNER: Thanks." 3 Then: 4 "CARSON: CMU to TOC. Back off. You 5 can back off and come back to the TOC 6 site." 7 And that's at forty (40) minutes into the 8 transmission. And then you're heard to back up. 9 "CARSON: Back out. Back out." 10 And then you go back to -- you're heard to 11 say: 12 "10-4. We're backing out now covered 13 by TRU." 14 And then you go back to the MNR parking 15 lot? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: Perhaps that'll be a good spot to 18 stop today. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 We'll adjourn now and be back tomorrow morning at nine 21 o'clock. 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, May the 9th at 9:00
3021 a.m. 2 3 --- Upon adjourning at 5:37 p.m. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Certified Correct 11 12 13 14 15 16 ________________________ 17 Carol Geehan 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25