1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 30th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 9 5 6 MARK KENNETH GRANSDEN, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 14 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 209 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 215 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 222 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 287 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 291 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 318 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 355 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 371 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1243 Photo's 0002 and 0006 showing road 4 and beach. 5 P-1248 Document Number 2005537. Resume of 6 Mark K. Gransden. 19 7 P-1249 Document Number 2005601. Handwritten 8 notebook entries of Mark Gransden, 9 July 29 to August 23, 1995, July 29 10 to August 23, '95. 22 11 P-1250 Document Number 2003550. Interview 12 Report, M.K. Gransden, July 29 - 13 August 01, 1995. 27 14 P-1251 Document Number 2000837. Handwritten 15 Daily Log of P/C Mark Gransden, August 16 7th to 10th, 1995. 33 17 P-1252 Document Number 2003550. Handwritten 18 OPP notebook entries of P/C Mark 19 Gransden, September 06, 1995. 124 20 P-1253 Ipperwash OPP Checkpoint Map, September 21 07, 1995. Marked by Witness Mark 22 Gransden, March 30, 2006. 139 23 24 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1254 Transcript of Region 01, Steve Lorch 4 - Alpha - Lima 2 - Prisoner Van, 5 September 06, 1995, 23:14 hrs. 6 Chatham Communications Centre, Logger 7 Tape number 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 8 of 20. 154 9 P-1255 Transcript of Region 01, Steve Lorch 10 - Alpha - Lima 2 - Prisoner Van, 11 September 06, 1995, 23:33 hrs, Chatham 12 Communications Centre, Logger Tape 13 number 0146, Track 12 , Disc 12 of 20 193 14 P-1256 Reserved. 194 15 P-1257 Transcript of Region 02, Mark Gransden 16 - Lima 1 , September 07, 1995, 04:57 hrs, 17 Chatham Communications Centre, Logger Tape 18 number 0147, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 202 19 P-1258 "Stan" Thompson drawing, September 20, 20 1995. Marked by Witness Mr. Mark Gransden, 21 March 30, 2006. 285 22 P-1259 Small map of close-up of P-437B. 23 Checkpoints map marked by Witness 24 Mr. Mark Gransden. 285 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. A nice day out there. I trust 8 everybody's doing well. We've come a long way. Most of 9 us are still in pretty good shape, surprisingly. 10 Before we being today I'd like to say a 11 few things about the timetable for completing the 12 evidentiary hearings which is in keeping with my stated 13 objective of completing my report this year. 14 I understand there's already been some 15 discussion among parties and with Commission Counsel 16 regarding cross-examination and the need for completing 17 these Hearings, and we've seen some evidence of this in 18 the last few days and it's been very encouraging. 19 I appreciate the continued effort to work 20 together cooperatively and constructively. All parties 21 to these proceedings have demonstrated a recognition and 22 a need to balance the competing objectives of 23 thoroughness and economy. 24 As you know hearing dates have been 25 scheduled until the end of May to call evidence from the


1 police officers who were involved, from local cottagers, 2 and from witnesses with the Departments of National 3 Defence and Indian and Northern Affairs. 4 If we don't finish by the end of May, and 5 it becomes necessary, I'm prepared to extend our hearing 6 schedule into June. And if this should occur we will be 7 sitting every day in the month of June save and except 8 June 22nd when Kimball Hall is unavailable and the 9 hearings will conclude on June 28th. 10 Commission Counsel is working to ensure 11 that the required witnesses are heard from in the time 12 remaining, and I'm confident that Counsel for the parties 13 will approach cross-examination in the next three (3) 14 months with the June 28th completion date in mind. 15 As I've said, we've already seen some 16 evidence of this this past week. To maximize the time 17 remaining, a number of modifications to our Hearing week 18 schedule is necessary. 19 As we did this week the first day of a 20 Hearing week which is usually Monday, we'll begin at 21 10:00 rather than at 10:30 and we will adjourn on that 22 day at half past 5:00, 5:30, rather than where we have 23 been adjourning at 5:00. 24 For the remaining days of a Hearing week, 25 we'll continue to start at 9:00 and adjourn at 5:00 or


1 even later if the witness is in a middle of testifying 2 rather than at 4:30 as we have been doing. 3 Finally, our lunch period will be 4 shortened by fifteen (15) minutes to one (1) hour. These 5 few modifications will add considerable Hearing time 6 between now and June the 28th. 7 And I fully appreciate that adding this 8 time to the Hearing schedule will also add to the 9 pressure everyone is already experiencing. But I believe 10 we have to do whatever we can to maximize the use of the 11 remaining Hearing days. 12 At this time I would also like to set up 13 my expectation regarding a timetable and a process for 14 closing written and oral submissions for Part 1. 15 The parties will be asked to file their 16 written submissions with the Commission with a copy to 17 the other Part 1 parties by July 28th. Time-limited oral 18 submissions will take place during the week of August 19 21st. Parties may limit their oral submissions to the 20 main points of their written submission and/or they may 21 use the time to apply to other parties' submissions. 22 We will be communicating the amount of 23 time to be allocated to each party for oral submissions 24 in the next week or so. There will be no limit for 25 written submissions, but our objective is to complete the


1 oral submissions within one (1) week. 2 Similarly, in the next week or so, I will 3 be addressing the Inquiry submission process as it 4 relates to Part 2. In the meantime, I trust that this 5 statement provides parties with sufficient notice and 6 direction to prepare and plan over the next few months. 7 And it will also inform members of the 8 public and those members of the media who are following 9 these proceedings of our anticipated timetable. 10 Again, your assistance in bringing these 11 proceedings to a timely conclusion while at the same time 12 ensuring that our investigation is complete is very much 13 appreciated. Thank you. 14 Call your next witness. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 16 Commissioner, before we proceed to our next witness I 17 wanted to make an announcement. 18 Yesterday we reserved P-1243 for two (2) 19 photos, photo 002 and 006, and I just wanted to announce 20 that we've made a paper copy of those two (2) photos, 21 provided that to the Registrar as the exhibit. We'll 22 also obtain coloured copies and just file it under the 23 same number. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 Ms. Vella, I understand you're up.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 2 its next witness, Mark Gransden. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 4 Gransden. 5 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Please take the Bible in 7 your right hand and state your name in full. 8 THE WITNESS: Mark Kenneth Gransden. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 10 11 MARK KENNETH GRANSDEN, Sworn 12 13 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Good morning, Officer. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: I understand you joined the Ontario 17 Provincial Police in November of 1987. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And you were posted to the Chatham 20 OPP Detachment from 1987 through to 1998. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: I further understand that you became 23 a member of the Emergency Response Team or ERT in 1993. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And can you tell us what's the


1 general role and function of the ERT in 1985 -- 1995. 2 A: '95? 3 Q: '95. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Sorry. In '95 when I began, our 8 mandate basically was in several areas with -- within the 9 OPP. We were responsible for K-9 backup which is 10 assisting our K-9 handlers on any tracks they did for 11 missing persons or fugitives. We'd be dispatched out 12 with them for that. 13 We also assisted the TRU team with 14 barricaded persons or armed individuals who were 15 barricaded in a residence or another location. We also 16 assisted with VIP security of persons in Ontario, witness 17 protection details. 18 Search and rescue was another mandate that 19 we were responsible for ground searches for lost or 20 missing persons in Ontario; and also a crowd control 21 aspect as well, management of large events and large 22 crowds, and other -- other details that they saw fit that 23 fell within our mandate. 24 Q: And what qualification process did 25 you have to complete in order to become a member of the


1 Emergency Response Team? 2 A: The process at that time, I made 3 application to become a member of the team, that was 4 reviewed I assume with my work record. I had to pass a 5 fitness standard and I had to attend a nine (9) week 6 basic course for the ERT program and following completion 7 of that then I was on the team. 8 Q: And just give us a little bit of 9 detail about what the nine (9) week course entailed? 10 A: Again it covered off all of the 11 aspects that we -- we were responsible for. There was a 12 section for -- for each of those areas; a crowd control 13 section for a week; search and rescue was another large 14 component; containment was another large component, and 15 then there was other areas with the VIP and witness 16 protection, and K-9 backup as well. 17 Q: All right. And was there a training 18 -- or a practical component in this training program? 19 A: During the training session much of 20 it was practical. We received a certain amount of 21 training, classroom instruction, and then it was applied 22 day and night after that. 23 Q: Did you engage or are there any 24 required ongoing qualification procedures or standards, 25 procedures, that you have to attend to be -- maintain


1 your position as a member on the ERT? 2 A: That's right. We have to maintain a 3 certain fitness level within the organization. Also 4 we're scheduled for twelve (12) maintenance training days 5 annually. 6 Q: All right. And as of July of 1995 7 had you been deployed in your capacity as a member of the 8 Emergency Response Team? 9 A: Previous to '95? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Yes, I had. 12 Q: All right. Now, which -- which 13 region or district did you belong to in 1995 in terms of 14 the ERT? 15 A: I was a member of the 1 District ERT 16 team. 17 Q: What district did that cover? 18 A: That was the Chatham District from 19 Essex County, Lambton, and Kent Counties. So from 20 Windsor -- excuse me, Windsor, County of Kent, and up to 21 Grand Bend area. 22 Q: Now, did you have any particular area 23 of expertise or specialty as a member of the ERT? 24 A: Previous to '96, no I did not. 25 Q: Now, are you still a member of the


1 Emergency Response Team? 2 A: Yes, I am. 3 Q: Okay. I also understand that you are 4 currently a senior constable at the Exeter Ontario 5 Provincial Police Detachment? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: Now, prior to 1995 had you any 8 experience in assisting with respect to First Nation 9 policing matters? 10 A: When I was posted to the Chatham 11 Detachment, at the Moravian First Nation was within our - 12 - within Kent County and fell within our patrol area. 13 We also bordered on Walpole Island First 14 Nation. It actually fell within the jurisdiction of 15 Lambton County but we bordered on it and there could be 16 an occasion when we would be on Walpole Island to assist 17 them. 18 Q: I wonder if you might turn to Tab 1 19 of your Witness Brief in front of you. This is Inquiry 20 Document 2005537. And can you please identify this 21 document for the Commission. 22 A: This document is a -- a CV or a 23 resume of -- of my experience. 24 Q: All right. And is it current? 25 A: Yes, it is.


1 Q: I'd like to make this curriculum 2 vitae of Officer Grandsden the next exhibit, please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1248, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1248: Document Number 2005537. 7 Resume of Mark K. Gransden. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: What was your first assignment, 11 relative to policing operations in relation to Ipperwash 12 and the Aboriginal protesters in that area? 13 A: My first involvement was on the 29th 14 of July, '95. 15 Q: What role did you perform? 16 A: Well, on that day our ERT unit was 17 called up and despatched to Forest Detachment. And on 18 that day we attended Forest Detachment and just stayed at 19 Forest Detachment, staged there. 20 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last -- 21 A: Staged. 22 Q: Sta -- 23 A: Staged. 24 Q: What does that mean? 25 A: Well, we just maintain a presence at


1 Forest Detachment. 2 Q: At the Forest Detachment, okay. So 3 right on the physical premises. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And were you provided with any 6 briefing or understanding as to why you were being 7 deployed as a member of the ERT District 1 team at that 8 time? 9 A: As I recall, the Military had vacated 10 the Base. There was an incident with the military and 11 the First Nations earlier in the day and the Military had 12 vacated the base. 13 Q: All right. And what was your next 14 involvement? 15 A: Following that, as I say, we never 16 left Forest Detachment and we were ordered to stand down 17 and return back to Chatham that same day. 18 Q: All right, thank you. Now, did you 19 make notes reflecting your attendance at the Forest 20 Detachment on July 29th, 1995? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And was it your practice to maintain 23 notes? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: Is it part of your professional


1 obligation to do so? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And can you just tell us what your 4 note taking practices at that time were? 5 A: These notes are -- are made in my own 6 handwriting. I make them myself to refresh my memory of 7 events that I attend as a police officer. 8 I do have an independent recollection of 9 some events but I use notes to refresh my memory for 10 Court or for an Inquiry like -- such as this. 11 They're in my own handwriting. I make no 12 additions or deletions following my notes. 13 Q: All right. And do you make the notes 14 in or around the time, or shortly after the time of the 15 events reflected in your notes? 16 A: Yes. You try and make the notes as 17 close to the time as possible, or shortly thereafter. 18 Q: I wonder if you would now turn to Tab 19 2 of your brief. This is Inquiry Document 2005601. 20 And would you kindly identify this 21 document, and it's noted as pages 40 to 49. Please 22 identify this document for the record. 23 A: It appears to be a photocopy of my 24 notes, my police notes, that were written by myself at 25 that time.


1 Q: And do they reflect the entries 2 relative to your assignments to the Ipperwash area from 3 the time period July 29th to August 23, 1995? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes, they do. 8 Q: I'd like to tender this as the next 9 exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1249, Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1249: Document Number 2005601. 14 Handwritten notebook entries 15 of Mark Gransden, July 29 to 16 August 23, 1995, July 29 to 17 August 23, '95. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And did you make any alterations, 21 deletions, or additions to these notes after you -- 22 creating them? 23 A: My original notes, no I did not. 24 Q: And were these made contemporaneously 25 with the events reflected; that is, at or shortly after


1 the events reflected? 2 A: Yes, they were. 3 Q: Thank you. Were -- when was your 4 next assignment, relative to Ipperwash? 5 A: Following the 29th of July? 6 Q: Following the 29th of July. 7 A: Again, on the 30th of July in '95, we 8 were again called to the North Lambton area. We were 9 called out to -- to attend at the Pinery Park, the 10 bunkhouse in Pinery Park. 11 Q: And were you housed at the Pinery 12 Park? 13 A: Yes, we were. 14 Q: How long did you -- did you remain 15 housed at the Pinery Park on this tour of duty? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: From the 31st -- pardon me, from the 20 30th of July through until the 8th of August. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I noted on page -- 25 A: No. Pardon -- pardon me. I have


1 made a mistake. Actually we did depart on the 2nd of 2 August. 3 Q: August the 2nd was your last day of 4 that deployment? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: All right. And did any -- can you 7 first tell me what was your assignment over the course of 8 those three (3) days or so? 9 A: During that time, initially we were 10 just staged at the Pinery bunkhouse and remained there. 11 On the 1st of August I was called out to a fatal motor 12 vehicle accident to assist officers at -- at that scene. 13 Q: All right. And where was the motor 14 vehicle accident? 15 A: The accident occurred at -- on Army 16 Camp Road at Matheson Drive. 17 Q: That is reflected at page 41 of your 18 notes? 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: And at -- is that 4:00 a.m. entry on 21 Tuesday, August 1995? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: All right. When then was your next 24 policing assignment in relation to Ipperwash? 25 A: Following the 2nd of August?


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: I returned -- I patrolled on the 2nd 3 of August in the area and then at 1:00 p.m. I returned 4 back to Chatham. On the 7th of August I was deployed 5 back to the area -- the Ipperwash area, Pinery bunkhouse. 6 Q: Fair enough. Now, were you required 7 to fill out any -- any report relative to your assignment 8 from July 29th through to August the 2nd? 9 A: There were operational reports that 10 were completed. I don't recall if there was one 11 completed for that period of time though. 12 Q: And can you define what the purpose 13 of an operational report was as distinct from your police 14 notes? 15 A: My police notes were -- would be a 16 notation that I would make for my own recollection. 17 The operational notes were a note that 18 would be written for anything of notation that we came 19 upon during patrol. It would be filed and analysed or 20 correlated by someone else later on. 21 Q: All right. So this was how you 22 communicated in writing significant events to others? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Perhaps you would go to 25 Tab 3. And Tab 3 is Inquiry Document Number 2003550. It


1 is -- it is identified as an interview report that -- 2 perhaps you would identify this document for us. Tell us 3 what it is. 4 A: Yes. The -- this would be the 5 operational report. Later on they were actually retitled 6 as an operational report, I believe. 7 The interview report itself is -- it's an 8 interview report as used by the OPP. And I believe I 9 just used it as a piece of paper that I -- I had at my 10 disposal at the time when I made the notes. So it 11 actually is an interview report but it's -- it's an 12 operational report and -- 13 Q: In other words, it is a form -- is an 14 interview report but the substance is the operational 15 report. 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right, sorry. 18 A: And it's from the 29th of July to the 19 2nd of August, operational report. 20 Q: Do you recall in relat -- when in 21 relation to the events recorded you would have prepared 22 and filed this operational report, or what your practice 23 would be in that respect? 24 A: Being that this is all on -- on one 25 (1) form it was completed on the 2nd of August.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: From my notebook I would take the 3 information from that and then completed this one form at 4 that time. 5 Q: All right. And where did you file 6 the report? 7 A: I believe there was a -- just an in- 8 box at the bunkhouse. 9 Q: At the Pinery bunkhouse? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 12 next exhibit, please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1250, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1250. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1250: Document Number 2003550. 18 Interview Report, M.K. 19 Gransden, July 29 - August 20 01, 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Now, you indicated your next 24 assignment relative to Ipperwash was on Monday, August 25 the 7th, 1995. And can you tell us, first of all, what


1 your length of the tour of duty for that assignment was? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And we're looking at Exhibit P-1249 6 at page 41. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: That period was from the 7th of 11 August until the 11th of August. 12 Q: Thank you. And were you deployed, 13 once again, in your capacity as a member of the ERT? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: What was your assignment over that 16 period of time? 17 A: During that period of time, we were 18 assigned to patrol duties; patrol the area; to maintain a 19 police presence; assist the local Detachment with 20 anything that we could; just general patrol of the area. 21 Q: All right. And when you say, "a 22 general patrol of the area", did that include the Army 23 Camp and the Ipperwash Provincial Park area? 24 A: It included the Provincial Park area. 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: We were not to attend the Army Camp 2 area at all. 3 Q: You were not to attend in the Army 4 Camp? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Do you have an under -- first of all, 7 were you given that direction? 8 A: I don't recall when I got that 9 direction, but I believe it was a given that we wouldn't 10 -- would never -- weren't to attend the Army Camp. 11 Q: All right. Did you have an 12 understanding as to why you were not to enter within the 13 boundaries of Camp Ipperwash? 14 A: Again, I don't recall the direction 15 itself and so I don't recall anything outside that we 16 weren't to go to the Army Camp. 17 Q: All right. Just so that I have a 18 better understanding, does this mean that if you were to 19 be in pursuit of an individual outside the boundaries of 20 the Army Camp, and they entered into the Army Camp, you 21 were not to follow without further, explicit orders? 22 A: I would say that we would not have 23 pursued unless it was an extreme situation where, you 24 know, a life and death situation. 25 Q: Okay. Do you have any understanding


1 with respect to the issue of jurisdiction of the Ontario 2 Provincial Police and their interrelationship with the 3 military police, with respect to the Camp Ipperwash? 4 A: I don't really have any knowledge of 5 that at all. 6 Q: Did anything -- sorry, let me ask you 7 this as well: Did you patrol inside the Park as part of 8 your duties? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when you did so, were you 11 uniformed -- in your uniform? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: Did anything of significance occur 14 over the tour of, or course of this tour of duty, from 15 August the 7th to August the 11th? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: There's nothing -- nothing overly 20 significant that wouldn't -- wouldn't occur on a regular 21 police detail or patrol in anywhere in Ontario. 22 Q: All right. And I should have asked 23 you earlier to describe what uniform -- first of all, did 24 you have more than one (1) uniform that you used at this 25 time?


1 A: I did have more than one (1) uniform 2 with me, but at this time I was only wearing the regular 3 OPP uniform, which would be a light -- at that time, a 4 light blue shirt with shoulder flash, blue pants with 5 blue stripe. 6 Q: All right, thank you. Did you also 7 have uniforms in your possession that were specific to 8 the emergency response teams? 9 A: Yes, ma'am, I would. 10 Q: And given that you were deployed in 11 your capacity, or at least as a member of ERT, why were 12 you wearing the, if I can use it, the -- the ordinary 13 police constable uniform? 14 A: In the early phases, I believe, we 15 were there as the ERT unit but we were doing general 16 policing det -- duties -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- so we wore a general policing 19 uniform. 20 Q: And I think I gave the Inquiry 21 document number of this but in the event I didn't and for 22 Counsels' benefit it's 2005601 is the Inquiry document 23 number of the police notes. I just wanted to clarify 24 that for My Colleagues. 25 All right. Now, when was the next time


1 you were assigned to Ipperwash-related duties? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I've noted that on the 21st of 6 August, '95 I was redeployed to the Ipperwash area. 7 Q: All right. And I'm sorry, just 8 before we carry on, did you file an operational report in 9 relation to the prior tour of duty? 10 A: Yes, ma'am, I believe I did. 11 Q: And if you look at Tab 5, Inquiry 12 Document 2000837, can you identify that document for us, 13 please. 14 A: The substance would be an operational 15 report for that period of the 7th of August to the 10th 16 of August, '95. 17 Q: All right. And I see that you've 18 noted -- you've labelled it a daily log. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: That would have been left again in 21 the bunkhouse, in the in-box, to your information? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: I'd like to make that the next -- the 24 next exhibit please? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1251, Your Honour.


1 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1251: Document Number 2000837. 3 Handwritten Daily Log of P/C 4 Mark Gransden, August 7th to 5 10th, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: All right. Now, proceeding back to 9 your next tour of duty commencing August the 21st, how 10 long was that tour of duty? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: On the 21st of August, '95 until the 15 23rd of August, '95. 16 Q: Thank you. And what was the -- what 17 was your assignment over that period of time? 18 A: Again it was the same as the -- the 19 previous deployment up there it was general policing 20 patrol of the -- of the area. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And I wonder if you would go to Tab 7 25 of your document brief; it's 2000804. And this has been


1 previously marked as Exhibit 1235. It's entitled, 2 Operational Report, August 21, 1995. 3 Can you identify that for me, please? 4 A: Yes, this would be the operational 5 report form. At this point a form of -- a form had been 6 created for those reports. 7 Q: All right. And the next document at 8 Tab 8, Inquiry Document Number 2000808, which has been 9 already made an exhibit, P-1236, if you would identify 10 that for the record, please. 11 A: Again that's an operational report 12 for the date of the 22nd of August, '95. 13 Q: All right. And do you know are 14 either of these reports in your handwriting? 15 A: Yes, they are. 16 Q: All right. So you prepared these on 17 behalf of yourself and Officer Whelan? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Thank you. And did anything of 20 significance occur during the course of this assignment? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: No, again nothing outside the normal 25 policing duties.


1 Q: And your notations are found at 2 Exhibit P-1249 at pages 48 to 49; is that fair? 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: Thank you. Now, over the course of 5 your three (3) assignments in July and August of 1995, 6 did you have any direct interaction with the occupants of 7 the Army Base? 8 A: No, I don't believe I did. 9 Q: All right. Did you witness anything 10 concerning the activities of the occupants which caused 11 you to perceive any public- or police-safety related 12 concerns? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you receive any information or 15 make any observations which gave rise to any suspicion or 16 concern on your part that the Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 might be a target of future occupation? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Were you aware of a briefing which 20 occurred on September the 1st, 1995 at the London OPP 21 Detachment, relative to a possible occupation of the 22 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 23 A: No, I was not. 24 Q: Were you made privy to an OPP plan 25 entitled, Project Maple?


1 A: No, I was not. 2 Q: Or to any OPP plan relating to the 3 police response to a possible occupation of the Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park? 5 A: No, I was not. 6 Q: When was your next assignment as a 7 member of the ERT with respect to Ipperwash-related 8 policing operations? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And perhaps we'll ask you first, 13 then, did you make police notebook entries? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And would you kindly go to Tab 9, 16 Inquiry Document 2005413. It's been filed as Exhibit P- 17 494, and perhaps you can identify that document for us. 18 A: Again, it's a -- a copy of my police 19 notebook in my handwriting. 20 Q: Thank you. And when was your next 21 assignment to the Ipperwash area? 22 A: 1st of September, '95. 23 Q: And what was the length of that tour 24 of duty? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And just for your information, your 4 police notes carry on at Tab 10. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Inquiry Document 2003550. I should 7 ask you, first of all, are those your police notes? 8 A: Yes, they are. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: To the 8th of September. 14 Q: 1995? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: Thank you. And I'd like to break 17 this time period up a little bit, if I might. I want to 18 ask you some questions about the period from September 19 1st to 3rd, 1995. 20 And first of all, what was your role 21 during this time period? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Again, at this -- at this point in


1 time, we were still doing, excuse me, general policing 2 duties in the same area. 3 Q: Were you deployed in your capacity as 4 -- as a member of the ERT Number 1 District team still? 5 A: Yes, we were, but we were doing 6 general policing duties in general policing uniform. 7 Q: And by general policing duties, can 8 you be more specific for this time period? 9 A: Sorry, could you ask that again? 10 Q: Can you be more specific with respect 11 to what your assignment was? 12 A: It was the same. At this point, I 13 don't believe our assignment had changed at all, so we 14 were doing general policing duties, having a police 15 presence for public safety, enforcing statutes that we 16 found. 17 Q: Were you patrolling the Park and in 18 and around the Army Camp, or at least around the Army 19 Camp? 20 A: Around the Army Camp, the roads in 21 the area of Ipperwash Park, or Ipperwash Beach, and the 22 Provincial Park itself. 23 Q: All right. Did you patrol the 24 military beach? 25 A: No.


1 Q: And what uniform were you wearing at 2 this time? 3 A: We were wearing our light blue shirt 4 with blue striped pants. 5 Q: Now, was there any significant 6 incidents that you were privy to that occurred between 7 Aug -- September 1st and 3rd? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: If I might refer to my actual police 12 notebook, this copy has been reduced and it's kind of 13 difficult to read at times. 14 Q: And have you brought today your 15 original police notes? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And have there been any alterations, 18 additions or changes made to that notebook? 19 A: No, there has not. 20 Q: Then please by all means refer to 21 that. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: This was the period to the 3rd of


1 September? 2 Q: Yes, the 1st to the 3rd please. 3 A: In regards to the Army Camp, I have 4 two (2) incidents noted that are somewhat relevant. 5 Q: All right. Would you kindly -- does 6 reviewing that refresh your memory? 7 A: On the 1st of September, the first 8 incident was while, I believe I was with -- Constable 9 Dougan and myself were on patrol. And we observed a 10 pickup truck which was stuck in one of the sand dunes on 11 the Army Camp area. And in amongst the pickup truck was 12 a group of Natives attempting to free it. 13 Q: Now, I just want to interrupt you 14 very, very briefly. Are you referring to the incident 15 that's reflected on page 66 of your police notes? 16 A: No, that -- this is an incident on 17 page 65 at -- 18 Q: All right. Thank you. All right, 19 then carry on. 20 A: -- at 22:31 hours. 21 Q: Thank you very much. All right. And 22 what do you recall about that incident? 23 A: Just that the vehicle was -- was 24 stuck in the sand dune, that several people were there to 25 assist and there was a tan Lincoln with plywood fenders.


1 Q: There was a what? 2 A: An another automobile was there -- 3 Q: Oh. 4 A: -- assisting. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: It was a tan coloured Lincoln 7 automobile and it had ply -- plywood fenders on the back. 8 Q: Were you required to intervene at 9 all? 10 A: No it was on the -- it was over on 11 the Army Camp side and we didn't intervene at all. Just 12 noted that we observed that. 13 Q: All right, fair enough. And did 14 anything else come of that event? 15 A: No. The vehicle was freed and all 16 the persons travelled back into the -- further into the 17 Army Camp area. 18 Q: And did you recognize the identity of 19 any of these individuals on the military beach at that 20 time? 21 A: No. No, I have no one noted. 22 Q: All right. Was there any other 23 significant incidents that you have a recollection of 24 which occurred between September the 1st and 3rd? 25 A: One (1) other incident on the 2nd of


1 September, '95. Again myself and Constable Dougan were 2 on patrol and we were patrolling the area of Matheson 3 Drive. And at 12:51 hours, as we came down Matheson 4 Drive to the beach area, we observed a vehicle that was 5 stuck in the sand at the end of Matheson Drive. 6 Q: All right. And on which part of the 7 beach was it stuck? 8 A: It would be in the Township, the -- 9 the road allowance on Matheson Drive so between the -- 10 there was a set of large rocks or barriers set up. 11 Q: Now, is this towards the Port Franks 12 or Kettle Point? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: It actually was at the -- the end of 17 Matheson Drive so at the shoreline. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: So it really wasn't -- it wasn't in 20 the Army Camp and it wasn't in the Provincial Park, it 21 was -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- in between. 24 Q: It's where -- where the Army Camp or 25 where the Matheson Drive -- I believe it commences at


1 Army Camp Road? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then it proceeds to the, I'm 4 going to say the west towards Port Franks at least, is 5 that fair, or -- or Grand Bend? 6 A: Yes, it would -- 7 Q: And then it curves towards the lake? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And this is where it -- at the end of 10 the road where it curves towards the lake? 11 A: It's down right at the beach -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- right at the shoreline. 14 Q: I just wanted to be clear. Thank 15 you. 16 All right. And what did you observe at 17 this time? 18 A: At that time it was the tan Lincoln 19 again. There were two (2) male Natives at the vehicle 20 and the vehicle was stuck. 21 We pulled up and observed them to be 22 drinking beer and my main concern when we arrived there 23 is that they were drinking alcoholic beverages in plain 24 view of the Provincial Park area. 25 They were really close to the -- the port


1 -- the Park boundary and there's numerous people on the 2 beach in the Provincial Park. And by statute you're not 3 permitted to drink liquor on a beach in a provincial 4 park. 5 I didn't want to portray -- didn't want 6 the people in the Park to see that, or to get the 7 impression that it was -- it was lawful or they would be 8 allowed to drink there. So my -- my first main concern 9 was the -- that the beer, you know, be put back in the 10 vehicle or be put out of sight and -- 11 Q: Okay. Now, let me clear. At the 12 time that this was occurring were they two (2) 13 individuals, and what side of the -- what part of the 14 beach were they on? 15 A: They were at the end of Matheson 16 Drive between the -- what I -- what I saw at that time is 17 the boundary from the Army Camp and the boundary for the 18 Park. 19 Q: So you thought they were on the 20 boundary? 21 A: Well, it's -- it's a road allowance I 22 would say -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- where each side of the road -- 25 it's -- it's a gravel road travelling there until it --


1 it breaks to the beach area and then the -- the 2 boundaries of the roadway itself are lined with large 3 rocks. 4 There's a set of large rocks that project 5 the edge of the roadway down on the Provincial Park side 6 and there's also a set of large rocks that project the 7 road allowance down to the beach on the Army Camp side as 8 well. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: There is an opening on the Army Camp 11 side to allow vehicle passage so there's no vehicle 12 passage into the Provincial Park from the beach. 13 Q: Okay. All right. And -- 14 A: If that clears it up for you. 15 Q: -- what happened -- what happened 16 next then? 17 A: The two (2) males were there 18 drinking. As I say, my main -- my first main concern was 19 the -- the alcohol, that it be placed out of sight, and 20 that's for the reasons I described. 21 My second issue was that the vehicle was 22 stuck and if we could render any assistance and get the 23 vehicle freed again and -- and they'd be on their way, I 24 believe, probably back into the -- the Army Camp area. 25 Q: All right. Did you take any steps


1 then in pursuance of those objectives? 2 A: Well, we exited our cruiser and -- 3 and approached the two (2) males that were at the vehicle 4 and spoke to them about those two (2) concerns. 5 Q: All right. Now, did you recognize at 6 the time either of these individuals? 7 A: One (1) was identified to me as 8 Dudley George. 9 Q: By whom? 10 A: I'm not -- I don't recall how I got 11 to know Dudley at all. This is the first contact that 12 I'd had with him. 13 Q: And is that reflected, at least his 14 name reflected in your note? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: And is that at page 65 of Exhibit P- 17 494 under the 12:51 entry? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Page 66, actually. 22 Q: 66, sorry. It is a small print. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And there's a bracket, "Dudley and 25 UK"?


1 A: Unknown. 2 Q: Right. Thank you. 3 All right. And can you tell me what 4 specifically you said to Mr. George and his companion? 5 A: I won't be able to describe exactly 6 what was said, but it was in the area of the two (2) 7 concerns I had; one about the alcohol being displayed and 8 the other about the vehicle being stuck. 9 I don't remember the specifics of the 10 conversation. 11 Q: Well, did you tell them to put the 12 alcohol away? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what -- did you get a response to 15 that request? 16 A: Again, I don't remember the specifics 17 of the response, but what I do remember of the encounter 18 that there was a lot of profanity used by the two (2) 19 Native males towards us. They didn't appreciate us being 20 there, or our assistance, in any way, and wanted us to 21 leave. 22 Q: All right. And did you -- how did 23 you respond to this reaction? 24 A: We just tried to explain our 25 situation and our position, that those were the only --


1 really, two (2) reasons that we were there. To -- we 2 didn't want to -- we didn't want to make a -- a large 3 issue of this, and just wanted to assist them and have 4 them on their way. 5 Q: All right. And were you successful 6 in this attempt? 7 A: No. The discussion was -- became 8 heated on their part. Further and additional people 9 arrived from the Army Camp side to help them. And to de- 10 escalate the situation and keep it from evolving into 11 anything bigger, Mike Dougan and I went back to our 12 cruiser and then eventually departed the area -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- and left them to -- to free the 15 vehicle on their own. 16 Q: Now, when the -- the discussion 17 became heated, did you or your partner use any strong 18 language or any language of a -- of a profane nature in 19 return? 20 A: No, ma'am. Our objective was just to 21 assist them in getting the vehicle freed and the alcohol 22 out of display and -- and they can be on their way. 23 Q: And did you engage in any use of 24 force during this occurrence? 25 A: No, ma'am. It was all just a verbal


1 conversation or interaction. 2 Q: Were there any weapons visible on the 3 part of the First Nation individuals, to your knowledge? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And did you have any of your weapons 6 drawn during this event? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Now, you made a note of this event in 9 your notebook at page 66 of Exhibit P-494. I wonder if 10 you could just read the excerpt verbatim into the record 11 up to the 13:10 entry. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Just -- you would like the notebook 16 entry read from 12:51 hours? 17 Q: Yes, your entry -- 18 A: If we go by that. 19 Q: -- relative to this event. 20 A: To 13:10? 21 Q: I believe that's the entry, yes. 22 A: "While on patrol, Matheson Drive, at 23 beach area, located parked vehicle. [I 24 list the licence as] RRV 189, Ontario 25 [meaning Ontario issue]. Located tan


1 Lincoln stuck in sand on beach on 2 Matheson Drive. Two (2) Native males 3 at the car [bracket] (Dudley and 4 unknown) [bracket]. 5 Males drinking beer. Went to advise 6 them to put beer away. Verbal 7 confrontation with Dudley over us on 8 their land. Threats to throw us off 9 the land. 10 Several other Natives, five (5) to six 11 (6) arrived in auto and ATV. P/C 12 Dougan and I depart area. 13 Tensions are high. Sergeant Korosec 14 advised and briefed." 15 Q: And is that a consistent -- the entry 16 consistent with your recollection of the event? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And was Sergeant Korosec the -- your 19 ERT team leader at this time? 20 A: Yes, he was. 21 Q: And for the duration of September? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. I'd like to show you some 24 photographs. They are already entered as Exhibit P-135 25 and Inquiry Document Number 1003031 and 1002327,


1 respectively. And I'd like to show you numbers 7 through 2 17. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Yeah perhaps, sorry -- excuse me. 7 Perhaps you could, yes, pass the hard copy of -- can I 8 just have a look at them first and... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: I'm going to actually start with 13 photograph 5 and I've just turned it up for the Witness. 14 And we're also going to put it on the screen so we can 15 all follow. 16 A: Thank you. 17 Q: Now, these photographs appear to have 18 been taken of -- of the scene, in and around this 19 incident, by a citizen who's already been identified in 20 the public record as -- as Ron Taylor. 21 And first of all, if the image at 22 photograph number 5 on the screen, do you recognize that 23 image at all today? I appreciate that they're not great 24 quality. 25 A: That -- that would be a photograph of


1 the area I described at the end of Matheson Drive with 2 the -- the square, the rectangular blocks separating the 3 boundary to the Provincial Park and to the road allowance 4 to Matheson Drive. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: The large rocks on the far side of 7 the photograph would be the extension of Matheson Drive, 8 the road allowance on the Army Camp side. 9 Q: And the land between the cement 10 blocks and the rocks, what -- what land was that? 11 A: To my recollection that would be the 12 part of Matheson Drive. That would be an extension of Ma 13 -- the gravel portion of Matheson Drive right to the 14 shoreline. 15 Q: All right. And do you recall what 16 the call number was of your cruiser that day, September 17 the 2nd? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: Can you identify the cruiser in that 20 picture? 21 A: I -- that I believe is not actually 22 an OPP cruiser. That would be the tan Lincoln. 23 Q: I'm sorry I missed that. 24 A: That -- that's the tan Lincoln. 25 That's not actually an OPP car.


1 Q: That's the tan Lincoln. Thank you 2 very much, okay. And is the car that's referred to in 3 your police notes? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Thank you. I wonder if we could go 6 to image 6, please. 7 Can you identify that photograph or that 8 image? 9 A: I don't have anything to reference 10 that. 11 Q: Anchor it? 12 A: It's a picture of the sandy beach 13 area. 14 Q: No, that's fine. If you -- if you 15 don't recognize it or can't identify it, there's no 16 markers, that's fine. Let's proceed to image 7 please. 17 There appear to be a number of people, and 18 we see the cement blocks and the tan Lincoln. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you identify any of the 21 individuals in that photograph? 22 A: That's a photograph taken of the -- 23 of the interaction between -- what I described, Dudley 24 George, myself and Constable Dougan. From the 25 photograph, I believe Dudley's standing on the far side


1 of the vehicle on the driver's side facing -- 2 Q: On the far right? 3 A: Yes, facing the photographer. 4 Q: Yes. And perhaps you could use the 5 laser pointer beside you there, so that we can all see 6 what you're referring to. There should be a button -- 7 that's it. 8 A: I -- in this photograph, it's 9 difficult to see but I believe that this individual would 10 be Dudley George. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: This would be myself. 13 Q: Yes, this is the person immediately 14 to the left, yes. 15 A: This is the unknown person I noted 16 and -- 17 Q: All right. And is that the number on 18 his shirt on the back, just to identify? 19 A: I believe that's a hockey jersey he's 20 wearing. 21 Q: Okay. And then to his left? 22 A: That would be Constable Dougan. 23 Q: Thank you. And there are a number of 24 people in the foreground, where -- do you know where they 25 came from?


1 A: Again, this is the -- this area would 2 be the Provincial Park area and I believe that these 3 would be people using the Provincial Park at that time -- 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: -- on the beach. 6 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could go to 7 image number 8. This appears to be a close up. Can you 8 describe again who is in the -- in the picture? 9 A: Again, this would be Constable Dougan 10 at this point. 11 Q: On the right, in the foreground? 12 A: Yes. I believe this to be Dudley 13 George. 14 Q: Okay, and he's looking into the 15 camera, so to speak. Yes. 16 A: Myself. 17 Q: To his left, yes. 18 A: And this again is the unknown person. 19 Q: And we see it is a hockey jersey with 20 "Gilmore" written on the back. Is that -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- right? Thank you. And this is 23 again during the -- the interaction that you have 24 described, is it? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Okay. If we could go to image 9, 2 please. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And again, can you recog -- identify 7 this photograph? 8 A: It appears to be a photograph of the 9 same scene again. 10 Q: All right. I don't think that we 11 need to continue identifying individuals based on your 12 earlier description. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: The next photograph, please, image 15 10. 16 And can you just -- do you recognize the 17 scene in this photograph? 18 A: This was the same scene, in the lower 19 portion here, this is just the front grill area of the -- 20 the tan Lincoln that's stuck. 21 Q: All right, on the far left edge of 22 the photo? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Additionally, as I noted, some other


1 vehicles and a ATV arrived with other persons to help 2 free the car from -- 3 Q: All right. And from -- from where? 4 A: From the Army Camp -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: -- area. 7 Q: These are -- these are the attendance 8 by the First Nation individuals that you spoke to? 9 A: I don't believe we spoke to them. 10 Q: No, that -- that you spoke of? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes, yes it is. 15 Q: So is this towards the end of the 16 interaction? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: Thank you. And I note -- can you -- 19 the -- the tan Lincoln, just for clarification, appears 20 to be between the cement blocks and the rocks; is that 21 fair? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And is that what you recall? 24 A: Yes, it is. 25 Q: And that's where it was stuck?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Thank you. Can we proceed to the 3 next photo, please. I believe this is photo 11. 4 And can you -- do you recognize the image 5 in that scene? 6 A: That would be our -- our police 7 vehicle that was parked on Matheson Drive. We've gone 8 back to the cruiser at this point, visible by -- the 9 driver's arm is extended out the window. 10 Q: Out the driver's seat -- the window, 11 yes. 12 A: Hmm hmm. And the persons that 13 arrived -- that you could see arriving from the previous 14 photo, have followed us up to the point where we got in 15 our cruiser. 16 Q: All right. And I see the -- who 17 you've identified as the unknown Native companion of Mr. 18 George on the far left and then -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- three (3) other individuals, are 21 they -- were they First Nations individuals, to your 22 recollection? 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: Thank you. Proceed to image 12, 25 please.


1 And do you recognize -- that's a very poor 2 image -- do you recognize that scene? 3 A: That would be a photograph -- it 4 shows the -- I don't know what the sequence is, but the 5 tan Lincoln at this point is -- is moved. Initially when 6 it was stuck it would be down in this area. 7 Q: All right. So -- 8 A: And now it's relocated -- 9 Q: Sorry. Okay. 10 A: -- over here. So I don't know if 11 this was previous to the -- it becoming stuck or -- or 12 after but it just appears that the tan Lincoln's sitting 13 on this road extension at the beach and there's several 14 persons standing up by the beach water -- shoreline in 15 this area and some along the -- the blocks. 16 Q: All right. But in fairness you -- 17 you can't identify the -- the sequence at this point, is 18 that right? 19 A: I don't know what sequence the -- the 20 photos were taken in. 21 Q: Thank you. I think that that -- 22 we'll conclude there then. Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Now, do you have any recollection of 2 attending at a large fire and gathering of First Nations 3 persons on Matheson Drive at the beach later that day? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: That would be on the 2nd of September 8 that we're discussing? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I have a notation on the 3rd of 14 September. 15 Q: On the 3rd of -- at 23 -- sorry, is 16 that 22:00? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: All right. Do you have any 19 recollection of that event -- 20 A: Just what I have noted here but I 21 have no independent recollection or -- 22 Q: No independent recollection. Now, 23 was this entry made at the -- at -- at or near the time 24 of the event recorded? 25 A: Yes, ma'am.


1 Q: And have -- were there any 2 alterations made to it? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Perhaps, you would just then simply 5 read that into the record for past recollection recorded 6 purposes? 7 A: On the 3rd of September, '95 my entry 8 at 22:00 hours or 10:00 p.m.: 9 "10-8 patrol dispatched to Ipperwash 10 Park re. [regards] to a large fire and 11 gathering of Natives on Matheson Drive 12 and the lake." 13 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, were 14 there any other significant, or were there any 15 significant events which occurred on September the 3rd of 16 which you have a recollection? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: No, ma'am. 21 Q: Thank you. So this point in time how 22 did you assess the risk to police or public safety posed 23 by the occupation of Camp Ipperwash and the occupants 24 themselves? 25 A: At that point in time, unless I


1 actually saw some indication that would show me anything 2 I would take from that, or if there was intelligence 3 information or other information that the OPP had it was 4 passed down the line, I may have proceeded then, but I -- 5 I myself didn't actually see anything at that point. 6 Q: Yes, I'm interested in your 7 assessment at that time based on your observations and 8 patrolling. 9 A: Right. At that point the only 10 encounter that was heated was the one I just described on 11 the beach. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I guess you could take from that that 14 things were -- were more heated than -- than an average 15 discussion so it did elevate somewhat, a bit of the -- a 16 risk factor, but it wasn't extreme yet; it wasn't very 17 high. 18 Q: All right. Something that you were 19 able to manage? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you. And to this point in time 22 had you received any information suggesting that the 23 First Nation occupiers might attempt to occupy the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Had you received any suggestion or


1 information suggesting that there Aboriginal burial 2 grounds at the Ipperwash Provincial Park as of September 3 the 3rd? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 6 you continued in your tour of duty on September the 4th; 7 is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when did you go on duty that day? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I don't actually have my -- my 14 reporting time that I started my shift but I was assigned 15 to detail at 4:01 p.m., at 16:01. 16 Q: All right. Now, are you looking at 17 page 69 of your police notes Exhibit P-494? 18 A: Yes, but I'll -- I'll continue to use 19 my original notes because -- 20 Q: Certainly. 21 A: -- they're a lot easier to read. 22 Q: Thank you. I just wanted to make 23 sure everyone's following along. 24 All right. And what was your -- what was 25 your assignment?


1 A: At -- excuse me, at 16:01 hours my 2 assignment -- again, I was with Constable Dougan, we were 3 to park our cruiser stationary on Army Camp Road and 4 observe vehicles within the Army Camp itself. 5 Q: All right. And again you were -- 6 continued to be deployed as a member of ERT as you were 7 throughout the balance of this tour? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what uniform are you wearing? 10 A: The light blue shirt, shoulder flash, 11 with blue pants and blue striped pants. 12 Q: All right. And I wonder if we could 13 put on the screen Exhibit P-437B? 14 And this has been previously identified as 15 a -- a map of the -- an aerial map of the Park and Army 16 Camp area. And I'm wondering if you would be able to, 17 with your laser pointer, show us where -- what point you 18 were deployed to for this part of your assignment? 19 Where were you positioned, in other words? 20 A: I believe we were positioned 21 somewhere down in -- in this area. 22 Q: All right. So this is towards 23 Highway -- just on the Highway 21 side of Matheson Drive? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And prior to what we've got marked


1 there as Checkpoint 'C'? 2 A: I don't believe we were as -- as far 3 to -- to 21 Highway as Checkpoint 'C'. 4 Q: Right, you were prior to that? 5 A: But we did -- we were observing this 6 -- this roadway. 7 Q: You were the lakeside of that -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- position? All right. And your -- 10 your specific assignment was what, once deployed there? 11 A: Just observe vehicles within the -- 12 in that area that we could see and make any notes of -- 13 of anything significant. 14 Q: Okay. And was this a checkpoint? 15 A: No, it was not. 16 Q: All right. So you were there in your 17 cruiser with your partner observing? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And had you received any 20 briefings to this point in time concerning a possible 21 occupation of the Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Were you aware at this time of any 24 OPP or Park contingency plans in the event of a Park 25 occupation?


1 A: No. 2 Q: What about any evacuation plan? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And so is it fair to say that you're 5 essentially performing an information gathering role at 6 this point? 7 A: At this point. 8 Q: And to whom were you to relay any 9 notable observations or information that you might make 10 or acquire during the course of -- of observing the First 11 Nations persons inside the Camp? 12 A: My immediate supervisor was Stan 13 Korosec, Sergeant Stan Korosec. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. And was he 15 positioned at the Command Post, or at the Detachment? 16 A: No, I believe he was mobile in a 17 cruiser. 18 Q: Thank you. Now, did anything of 19 significance occur then during your tour of duty on 20 September the 4th; that would be Labour Day Monday? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Can you tell me in order of sequence, 23 please, the first event? 24 A: Excuse me. As I said, at 16:04 25 hours, or 4:01 p.m., Constable Dougan and I were parked


1 in that area and observing vehicles in the Army Camp. We 2 weren't there very long. And at 16:07 or 4:07 p.m. over 3 the police radio we heard request for assistance from 4 other officers to the area of Matheson Drive at -- at the 5 beach. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Again, the area that I described 8 earlier that I met Dudley George, it's from that same 9 area. 10 Q: All right. Matheson Drive when it 11 curves into the beach? 12 A: At the beach area. 13 Q: At the beach, thank you. All right 14 and so what did you do in response to this request for 15 assistance? 16 A: Constable Dougan and I drove down to 17 that area. 18 Q: What did you observe? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: When we arrived there were several 23 Native persons in a verbal confrontation with the OPP 24 officers that were down there. At that time -- 25 Q: And do you recall -- I'm sorry, go


1 ahead. 2 A: At that time Con -- or Sergeant 3 Korosec was one of the members down on the beach. 4 Q: Do you recall who the other officers 5 were down at the beach? 6 A: I know that Sergeant Korosec was 7 there, myself, Constable Dougan, but I don't have note 8 who -- who the other OPP officers were that were there. 9 Q: All right. Just so that I know, do 10 you have an independent recollection of this event today? 11 A: I do have some, yes. 12 Q: All right, thank you. And you're 13 using your notes to refresh your memory then? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. All right. And did you 16 get out of your cruiser? 17 A: Yes, we did. 18 Q: And what happened next? 19 A: There was lar -- Constable Kor -- or 20 Sergeant Korosec was speaking with Judas George. 21 Q: How did you know that was Judas 22 George? 23 A: Again, I don't remember how I -- I 24 got to know his name. Certainly, he's a large man and he 25 -- his presence, you know, stands out, but how I came to


1 know his name, I -- I don't recall. 2 Q: And do you understand that to be his 3 birth name or -- or something else? 4 A: I believe that's a nickname or a 5 given name to him. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: I don't think that's his actual birth 8 name. 9 Q: Okay. Carry on. 10 A: There were several Natives, Native 11 persons down there. And there were several OPP officers. 12 I don't have noted how many officers were there. 13 There was a dispute going on over the -- 14 the ownership of that -- that piece of Matheson Drive. 15 Q: Is the part that -- that the tan 16 Lincoln was stuck on in the prior incident? 17 A: Where the vehicle was stuck? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay, thank you. 21 A: That there was a dispute over 22 ownership of that. Our position was that it was Township 23 property at that point. 24 Q: Did you hear that position 25 communicated expressly?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes, okay. 3 A: From -- from Sergeant Korosec. 4 Sergeant Korosec was the -- the main role leader in the 5 discussions there. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And it appeared that Judas George was 8 taking a leadership role from the Native side as well. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: So they were -- they were I would say 11 the main two (2) persons speaking. But there was other 12 fringe conversations going on with the other Natives and 13 the other officers that were there. 14 Q: All right. Carry on. 15 A: It was a heated discussion over the 16 ownership of that -- that piece of property. 17 Q: How did that dispute resolve? 18 A: In the end, the OPP officers went 19 back. We went to our cruiser and de-escalated it and 20 went -- and left the area. 21 Q: And do you know why that 22 determination was made? 23 A: I believe it was made by Stan Korosec 24 to de-escalate the situation and us to leave. 25 Q: Now, did you engage in any direct


1 communication or conversation with any of the -- the 2 First Nations occupants? 3 A: I believe some of them were speaking 4 to me, but I -- I didn't engage in our position at all; 5 that Sergeant Korosec was the -- the lead role there and 6 he -- he did most of the speaking for the OPP. 7 Q: Do you recall what you were being 8 told then directly? 9 A: Again not being specific, but it had 10 to do with the ownership; that they had a belief that 11 that was part and parcel to the Army Camp, I believe, 12 that they believed that was part of the Army Camp. 13 Q: Okay. And did you recognize any of 14 the First Nation individuals aside from Judas George? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Now, did you observe any vehicles, 17 any non police vehicles at this encounter? 18 A: I don't recall any at this time. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall seeing any 20 visible weapons on the part of the First Nations persons 21 at this time? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: Were any of the police officers' 24 weapons or guns deployed or -- or drawn? 25 A: No.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Did you make any type of verbal 5 report to anyone about that incident? 6 A: No, I wouldn't. Sergeant Korosec was 7 the highest ranking officer there, so any report would be 8 from him. 9 Q: Fair enough. And how long did this 10 incident occur, at least the part that you were at? 11 A: I don't believe it went on very long; 12 fifteen (15) minutes, maybe. 13 Q: All right. Now, was there any other 14 significant incidents that you have a recollection of 15 occurring on September the 4th? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Sorry? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes. Could you -- 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: -- tell us about that? 25 A: I have noted also, and I remember at


1 5:52 p.m. that Constable Dougan and I were parked again 2 on Army Camp Road at Matheson Drive. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: At the intersection there. 5 Q: For observation purposes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I could hear the sound of a chainsaw 9 --- a chainsaw whining, the sound of a chainsaw. And 10 then I could hear the sound of trees being felled, down - 11 - further down Matheson Drive, in the area where Matheson 12 Drive makes a -- a sharp left turn, a ninety (90) degree 13 left -- left turn to head to the beach. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: So in the area where that ninety (90) 16 degree corner would be, that's the area that I could hear 17 the chainsaw being operated. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And the trees being felled. So I 20 exited the cruiser and I actually got up on the hood of 21 the cruiser to observe down the road better. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: And I could see trees being felled 24 across the -- right across Matheson Drive in that area. 25 Q: And did you take any actions as a


1 result of that observation? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did that action cause you -- give you 4 any cause for concern at the time? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Why not? 7 A: I wasn't concerned for my safety at 8 all; the trees dropping were being felled on Matheson 9 Drive just close the road way off. 10 Q: All right. And did you report this 11 incident to anyone, verbally, at the time? 12 A: I believe there was radio 13 communications with the other officers, Sergeant Korosec, 14 about it. 15 Q: That other officer is engaged and not 16 you? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Is that right? 19 A: We -- we instant -- we were the ones 20 that made the radio broadcast. 21 Q: Would that be you or your partner? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: Okay. And I think you indicated 24 earlier that this event happened at 5:52, which would be 25 17:52; is that what you said?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And I'm looking at your notebook, I'm 3 looking at page 69 and perhaps I'm just not reading the - 4 - I can't read this very well. 5 Is that 17:52, "three (3) trees on 6 Matheson Drive cut down across smoking." 7 Is that -- is that 17:52? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay, thank you very much. Now, did 10 you come to any conclusion as to why the action of the 11 trees -- why the trees were being cut down? 12 A: I believed it was to close off the 13 roadway and deny access down to Matheson Drive -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- by vehicles. 16 Q: All right. Were there any further 17 significant events that day that you were privy to? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Can you tell us about the next one, 20 please? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: The next event that I have noted was 25 at 19:00 hours, or 7:00 p.m.


1 Q: Yes? 2 A: Myself and other officers were in the 3 Provincial Park after it closed for the -- the season. 4 At that time we attended to the -- there's was a chain 5 link fence, pardon me, that runs along the back part of 6 the Provincial Park. 7 Q: Is this along Matheson Drive? 8 A: And -- and the other side of the 9 chain link fence would be Matheson Drive. 10 Q: Thank you. All right. And Mr. 11 Millar has put up Exhibit P-437. And perhaps you can 12 just go ahead and carry on with your story and then 13 perhaps we'll make reference to it. 14 What, if anything, did you observe? 15 A: As part of the -- part of the chain 16 link fence that separated the -- Matheson Drive from the 17 Provincial Park there was a gate during -- along a 18 section of the fence. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Myself and other officers attended at 21 the -- at the gate and there was a group of Natives from 22 the Matheson Drive side of the gate and they were trying 23 to break the lock free on the -- the gate. 24 Q: All right. And did you observe 25 whether or not they were successful?


1 A: Yes, they were. 2 Q: And did you observe what they used to 3 break the lock with? 4 A: I believe they had a pair of bolt 5 cutters. They were on it for -- for a period of time to 6 try and cut the lock. Sergeant Korosec was on the scene 7 and he was trying to dissuade them from -- from cutting 8 the lock off. 9 Q: All right. And can you now show us 10 on the map behind you, Exhibit P-437, approximately where 11 this activity took place. 12 And just to orient you, on the left you 13 can see Army Camp Road and then to the right along the -- 14 Matheson Drive there's a -- a box, which I believe is the 15 maintenance centre? 16 A: This area, is that what we're 17 discussing? 18 Q: Yes, that's right, where the little 19 hand is, yes, if that orients you at all. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I believe the area is somewhere in 24 here where the -- the chain link fence runs, I believe, 25 up in this section and the gate would be somewhere in


1 here. 2 Q: All right. So you're pointing right 3 now to where Matheson Drive has turned towards the beach. 4 And there's -- is there a road there visible, just to the 5 right of where you marked? 6 A: I believe this is a -- an access road 7 or a road within the Park. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I believe this is the camping area. 10 I haven't been there in -- 11 Q: No, that's -- that's fair enough. 12 A: -- in a significant number of years. 13 Q: All right. But in any event, the 14 gate is in or around that road, internal road? 15 A: I believe -- I believe it is, yes. 16 Q: Yes, okay. And you're pointing at 17 the -- where the internal road and Matheson Drive meet -- 18 intersect on the right side of the Park; fair enough? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. Now you said that -- do 21 you -- did you hear Sergeant Korosec attempting to 22 dissuade the -- the First Nations persons from doing 23 that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall what he was saying to


1 them or what the nature of what he was saying to them 2 was? 3 A: I think he was just trying to -- to 4 keep them -- or have them not cut the lock off the gate. 5 Q: All right. And how many police 6 officers, to your recollection, were present at the 7 scene? 8 A: Eight (8) to ten (10). 9 Q: And how many First Nations persons, 10 to your knowledge, were there? 11 A: I believe ten (10) to twenty (20). 12 Q: Ten (10) to twenty (20)? And from 13 your perspective, as an officer at that scene, was it 14 feasible to -- to attempt to place anyone under arrest as 15 they were trying to break the lock? 16 A: No, it wouldn't have been feasible. 17 Q: Why not? 18 A: Prudent idea, I don't believe. 19 Q: Why not? 20 A: I think they would have escalated the 21 situation. 22 Q: Now -- and you indicated that 23 ultimately there was success in cutting the -- the lock? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what happened next?


1 A: The gate was pulled open and vehicles 2 and people, Native -- Native vehicles and Native people 3 entered the Park. 4 Q: Do you recall how many vehicles 5 driven by Native -- First Nations persons? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: All right. But you think there were 8 ten (10) to twenty (20) First Nations persons in total? 9 A: I am estimating, yeah. 10 Q: Thank you. And you said that this 11 happened at 19:00 hours approximately, after the Park was 12 closed for the season. 13 Now, what was the basis of your belief 14 that the Park had been closed for the season? 15 A: My understanding was that, and I'm 16 not sure what the timeframe was, but there was a period 17 of time that they -- the Park was seasonal and it -- they 18 closed it for any day use -- or they closed the kiosk and 19 they closed the Park down for the end of the season. 20 Q: All right. Now, was -- were there 21 still any campers or day users remaining in the Park at 22 this time, to your knowledge? 23 A: There were a few. 24 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 25 did you do then, following the entry into the Park of the


1 First Nations individuals? 2 A: We then went and advised them to -- 3 it might be wise for them to leave the Park and we 4 actually had occasion to escort one (1) couple off -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- or out -- 7 Q: Who did you advise, specifically? 8 A: Anyone that was there for day use. 9 Q: Camp -- Park users? 10 A: Park users, yes. 11 Q: Was any similar advice relayed in 12 your presence at this time to the First Nations people? 13 A: No. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I wonder, Commissioner, if we might 18 take the morning break at this time. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:33 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:52 a.m. 25


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Thank you. Constable Grandsden, you 8 indicated, prior to the break, that after the locks were 9 cut and the First Nations persons entered the Park, you 10 then proceeded to assist in the evacuation of the Park 11 users? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Can you tell us what, if 14 any, the next significant event was? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I'm just trying to get up to speed 19 here. 20 Q: Certainly. The last event was at 21 19:00 hours and forward. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Following assisting the pe -- the day


1 use people out of the Park, my next incident, that I have 2 noted, is at 22:00 hours or 10:00 p.m. And at that time, 3 the OPP officers were still within the Provincial Park as 4 well as the Native persons that had entered the Park. 5 It was dark, and at that time we had 6 congregated at a kiosk area near the front entranceway to 7 the Park. 8 Q: Yes. And about -- 9 A: And -- 10 Q: -- how many officers were there 11 present? 12 A: I still believe it was -- at that 13 point, at the ten o'clock, I believe all the officers 14 that were in the Park had come to that one (1) location 15 and I believe there was ten (10) of us. 16 Q: All right, thank you. And how many 17 First Nations persons at that time, approximately, that 18 you could see? 19 A: It's difficult to estimate. The area 20 we were in had some lighting. The First Nations persons 21 were, for the most part, standing in the shadows or in 22 the back. 23 We were standing under the light and they 24 were in the dark -- darker area. And some people would 25 come and go out of the lighted area into the dark.


1 So to get a good grasp on how many people 2 were there, I don't really know. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: You would -- I wasn't sure if it was 5 the same person coming in and out of the darkness to the 6 light or it was different people. 7 Q: Okay. And the light -- was there a 8 light at the kiosk that was operational, or do you 9 recall? 10 A: I recall like a -- a low -- low lit 11 area. There was -- there was a light -- lighting there. 12 Q: Okay. All right. And so what do you 13 recall observing at this time? 14 A: At that time, as I said, all the 15 officers were there and our -- our cars were parked on 16 the -- the roadway or the laneway at the kiosk. 17 And the First Nations persons were, as I 18 said, in the darkness and in the shadows moving in and 19 out of that. At a point there was some lit flares that 20 were thrown in the direction of officers that were there. 21 Q: Did you see that? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: Did you see how many? 24 A: No. I -- I don't have a -- several 25 but I don't have a count at all.


1 Q: And did you see whether any made 2 contact with any police officers? 3 A: No, I didn't see that. 4 Q: And did you see who may have thrown 5 any of these flares? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. Anything 8 else? 9 A: And just if I can just expand on 10 that. The flares themselves weren't -- weren't like a 11 road flare type of thing with an orange glow. They were 12 more of a white -- white flame or like a phosphorous, 13 like a bright white light. 14 And I can remember them coming in from the 15 darkness, kind of in an arcing pattern. And -- and from 16 where I was they didn't come that close to me, they were 17 kind of on each side of me, a different -- different 18 moments they'd come in at. 19 Q: How big were they? 20 A: They appeared to be small. 21 Q: Were they like firecrackers or...? 22 A: I don't know. None landed close to 23 me that I could actually see what they were. I could 24 just see the light itself coming in. 25 Q: And would the light then fade as they


1 hit the ground or...? 2 A: They continued to burn when they were 3 on the ground for a period -- 4 Q: For how long? 5 A: -- and then they would then burn out. 6 Q: For how long? You're talking seconds 7 or minutes or...? 8 A: Minutes. 9 Q: Minutes. Okay, thank you. 10 A: A few minutes though, not -- not an 11 extended period of time though. 12 Q: Okay. Did that cause the police 13 officers to disperse? 14 A: No. No, it did not. 15 Q: All right. Did anything else occur 16 during this time period? 17 A: After that incident, we were all 18 still standing there and at a point Judas George came out 19 of the -- the shadows and came right up to the -- the OPP 20 cruiser. 21 Q: And how far away were you from him 22 when he approached the -- the police cruiser? 23 A: Where he ended standing, he would be 24 on the passenger side trunk area, the rear fender area of 25 the cruiser and I was on the driver side fender area, so


1 the width of a car -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- apart. He was speaking with 4 Sergeant Korosec again and discussing us leaving the -- 5 the Park. 6 Q: And what was the general tone of that 7 conversation? 8 A: Very -- very heated. 9 Q: All right. And do you recall -- 10 A: And hostile on the part of -- of 11 Judas George. 12 Q: All right. Do you recall any of the 13 language that was used during the course of the 14 conversation? 15 A: Not specifically, but it was for us 16 to leave the Park. 17 Q: All right. Was a demand made that 18 you might leave the Park? 19 A: Yes, there was. 20 Q: And was there any limits placed with 21 that demand or conditions? 22 A: Yes, there was. There was a time or 23 a countdown, like a timeframe with a countdown made for 24 us to leave. 25 Q: And what was the response of Sergeant


1 Korosec and others? 2 A: I believe he -- he was saying that we 3 weren't going to leave. We were staying in the Park. 4 Q: What do you remember next? 5 A: At a point at -- at that -- during 6 their exchange, Judas had a large stick in his hand. And 7 I have it described it was about a three (3) foot stick. 8 He took the stick and he took it and swung 9 and smashed the rear window out of the police cruiser 10 they were standing beside. 11 Q: Do you recall how wide that stick 12 was? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: And was it like a manufactured stick 15 or -- or -- or a branch? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I just recall that it was of length, 19 that he had in his hand. 20 Q: And you saw him do this? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: Did you hear him give any warning 23 prior to him doing this? 24 A: No, there was the -- the countdown 25 for us to leave, and -- and it was just like -- they were


1 having their -- their discussion and then it was just 2 like an out-of-the-blue reaction, there was no sort of 3 build-up to it, it was just like a split second thing and 4 there -- and he just broke the window. 5 Q: And in what way did he break the 6 window? What kind of damage was done? 7 A: Well, the whole back window shattered 8 out of the car and left a -- a dent across the trunk. 9 Q: All right. Was that your cruiser? 10 A: No, it wasn't. 11 Q: All right. Now, do you recall what 12 the demeanour of -- of Judas George was over the course 13 of these -- this interaction? 14 A: Well, he was very upset about us 15 being in the Park, I'd say hostile or angry that we were 16 there, and he wanted us gone. 17 Q: All right. And what was the 18 demeanour of Sergeant Korosec in responding to Judas 19 George? 20 A: Well, he was trying to discuss it 21 calmly with him. 22 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you see any -- 23 any weapons aside from, ostensibly the stick and the 24 flares, on the behalf of the First Nations that -- that 25 evening?


1 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: And did any of the officers draw any 3 of their weapons on this occasion? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And how long did this 6 episode take place? 7 A: Probably twenty (20) to thirty (30) 8 minutes, I believe. I believe the countdown started at 9 fifteen (15) minutes to get out of the Park and -- but it 10 fluctuated. It wasn't a consistent count, it kind of 11 fluctuated up and down. 12 Q: Okay. And were there any other 13 discussions going on as between the police officers and 14 the First Nations persons in your presence or that you 15 were directly a part of? 16 A: There was no real conversation. For 17 the most part the First Nations -- there was a distance 18 between us and them. They never really approached in 19 conversation range. 20 There were some taunts and some yelling 21 from them for us to leave previous to Judas arriving but 22 he -- he stepped into that -- that space and came right 23 up to us and discussed it. 24 Q: All right. And were there any other 25 police officers or -- and/or cruisers immediately outside


1 the Park, but in the vicinity, during this occurrence? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And what was your 4 observation with respect to the level of tension during 5 the occurrence of these events of the flare throwing and 6 the discussions as you've described? 7 A: I would say they were high and 8 escalating -- 9 Q: All right. On -- 10 A: -- to the point where the window was 11 broke. 12 Q: On both sides? Both the police and 13 the First Nations? 14 A: I didn't feel that -- like I didn't 15 feel myself that I was escalating, but certainly when the 16 window got broke that it -- it was a major step. 17 Q: All right. And at that time what was 18 your assessment then of the -- the potential risk to 19 safety of the police officers and other people in the 20 Park? 21 A: Certainly that the -- I guess the bar 22 had been raised another level and -- and I don't know 23 what the next -- if there was no reaction to the -- to 24 the window being broke what the next -- next step would 25 be. I -- I don't know what the next level would -- would


1 have been from there. 2 Q: What was the reaction then following 3 the -- the breaking of the cruiser window? 4 A: We were told to leave the Park. 5 Q: By whom? 6 A: By -- well, my -- my order came from 7 Stan Korosec. 8 Q: All right. So there was an order, 9 police order, to vacate the Park? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And did all the police officers 12 vacate the Park at that time -- 13 A: Yes, we did. 14 Q: -- leaving behind the First Nations 15 persons? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And during the course of this 18 interaction do you recall whether or not Sergeant Korosec 19 or any other police officer advised the First Nations 20 persons that -- that their presence was illegal or a form 21 of trespass or otherwise inappropriate? 22 A: I don't believe so. 23 Q: Do you know why not, why that 24 wouldn't have been communicated? 25 A: I do recall that there was some


1 conversation that, in the past, once the Park was closed, 2 that First Nations had, or anyone for that matter, had 3 the use of the Park; that they'd closed the kiosk and 4 they weren't taking any fees to enter there and it was -- 5 anyone who wanted to enter, could. 6 So it was -- at that point in time was a - 7 - an open area. 8 Q: That was your understanding at the 9 time? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And did you hear any demands 12 or claims made by any of the First Nations persons during 13 the occurrence of this event, or any explanations for why 14 they had taken the action of -- of going into the Park? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Now, did you agree with the order to 17 vacate the Park? 18 A: I followed that order. 19 Q: Right. In your view, given the 20 dynamics of the situation, and as an officer who was 21 there at night, could the police have effectively 22 precluded the occupation and required the First Nations 23 persons to leave at that time? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 A: I think you're asking me to speculate 3 on that. I don't know -- as I said, I don't know what 4 the next course would have been if we hadn't vacated. 5 The window was broken and I don't know what the next -- 6 if the -- if the next ante would have been -- if there 7 would have been a -- an increase in some kind of 8 confrontation or anything. 9 I mean, I think the potential was there 10 for that, so it was wise that we did leave to -- to keep 11 it from getting to the next level. 12 I don't know if it would have; I don't 13 know what the intention was on -- on the -- Judas' side 14 or the First Nations side. 15 I don't -- and then for us to -- to 16 actually, physically keep them out of the Park, I don't 17 think that was a possibility. 18 Q: All right. And in your view as a 19 police officer there that night, witnessing certain 20 events, did you have reasonable grounds to make any 21 arrests in relation to any of the events that you 22 witnessed? 23 A: Certainly breaking the window I 24 witnessed myself, and that would be a charge of mischief, 25 a violation of the charge of mischief, which is an


1 arrestable offence in Canada. 2 And I could have effected an arrest at 3 that time, if I -- if I felt necessary. 4 Q: And why didn't you? 5 A: I don't think it would have been 6 prudent. I think it would have escalated things 7 considerably if we'd tried to effect an arrest at that 8 point. 9 Q: After you left the Park, where did 10 you go? 11 A: We left the Park and we proceeded 12 back to Forest Detachment. 13 Q: Okay. And did you make a note in 14 your police notebook of the events that you have just 15 described? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And that is at page 69 to 70 of 18 Exhibit P-494. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Starting with the entry 22:00. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And would you just kindly read that 25 passage into the record for the benefit of the


1 Commission, please? 2 A: At 22:00 hours or 10:00 -- 10.00 p.m. 3 on the 4th of September. 4 Q: It would be, yes. 5 A: So I have at 22:00 hours 6 approximately: 7 "Judas George, with a three (3) foot 8 stick, became angry and stated -- and 9 started a confrontation with Sergeant 10 Korosec. 11 He struck the rear of the OPP cruiser 12 and broke out the rear window, 13 shattering it. 14 He issued an order to leave the Park. 15 All officers left the Park and then we 16 regrouped at Forest." 17 Q: Thank you. And that was a fair and 18 accurate description of the events as you recorded them? 19 A: It's a notation in my book. I have 20 independent recollection of -- of further details of it, 21 though. 22 Q: I appreciate that, and you've shared 23 that with us now? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now what was the -- the next


1 involvement or event that you have involvement with that 2 evening? 3 A: Following attending at the Forest 4 Detachment, myself and -- and other off -- ERT officers 5 were assigned to assist the Park superintendent and a 6 Native OPP officer attend at the Provincial Park and 7 serve notice of trespass on the Native occupiers. 8 Q: All right. And were you advised as 9 to why this course of action was being chosen? 10 A: I believe there was some concern for 11 their -- their safety to do that. 12 Q: Okay. And were you advised as to why 13 there was going to be an attempt to serve a notice of 14 trespass? 15 A: My understanding would be that it -- 16 it -- it would give them formal notice that they were 17 trespassing on the Provincial property, or the Provincial 18 Park. 19 Q: All right. And did you proceed to do 20 that? 21 A: Yes, we proceeded down there. 22 Q: Can you tell us, from the best of 23 your recollection then, what transpired as -- in this 24 attempt? 25 A: Myself and the other officers that


1 were assigned to assist in that, we entered the -- 2 entered into the Park briefly into the entrance way. We 3 didn't go as far as the first -- first building. 4 We were in the shadows in the ditch area 5 and remained in that position. The OPP officer and the 6 Park Superintendent walked up the roadway and spoke with 7 -- someone from the First Nations came out and spoke to 8 them about the order. 9 Q: And walked up the roadway to where? 10 A: I'm not sure exactly where. It 11 wasn't at a specific spot, it was just in the middle of 12 the roadway, the entrance way to the Park. 13 Q: And did you overhear the 14 conversation? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: And did you see any attempts to hand 17 over the notice. 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: All right. What happened next? 20 A: Following their meeting, both sides 21 separated and went their own way. The First Nations went 22 back into the Park, the Superintendent and the First 23 Nations OPP officer proceeded back down the roadway, back 24 out of the Park, and we backed out of the Park the same 25 way we came in.


1 Q: And were you advised as to what had 2 transpired? 3 A: No, I was not. 4 Q: Do you recall the name of the First 5 Nations police officer? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And what did you do next? 8 A: I believe following that we returned 9 to Forest Detachment. 10 Q: All right. And did you have any 11 further assignments that evening or into the early 12 morning? 13 A: Yes, I was again assigned with 14 another task. I assisted other officers setting up what 15 we call the TOC site which was in one of the parking lots 16 on -- along the beach -- not the beach area -- along -- 17 Q: Perhaps we could put up the map, 437- 18 B please. We'll just put the map up and perhaps you can 19 point out where -- where it was. 20 Was does TOC stand for? 21 A: Tactical Operation Centre -- 22 Q: Okay. So TOC? 23 A: -- or communication centre. Yes, 24 TOC. 25 Q: Okay. And just while we're getting -


1 - oh, it is up. Thank you. 2 Perhaps with your marker you would kindly 3 just point out where the site was that you were assisting 4 with setting up the TOC. 5 A: I believe it was down in -- down in 6 this area. There's a MNR Provincial Park parking area 7 down in this area and that's where we located it. 8 Q: All right. And this is labelled MNR 9 parking lot and it's in and around where Checkpoint A-2 10 is; in that vicinity, generally?. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And what exactly was your -- what 13 were you setting up? 14 A: It was actually a trailer, a St. 15 John's ambulance -- I guess like a command trailer they 16 would have or a mobile first aid post, I guess, is what 17 they would use it for. 18 Q: All right. And do you know what the 19 code name was assigned to the TOC? 20 A: No, I do not. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. And what, if 22 anything, did you do after that? 23 A: I remained there until I was relieved 24 by another ERT -- ERT members. 25 Q: And what time did you go off duty


1 that night? 2 A: I was relieved at 9:00 a.m. by 3 members of the 3 District ERT, and then I was off duty at 4 ten -- ten o'clock the next morning. 5 Q: All right. Now proceeding to 6 September the 5th then, did you -- did you return to 7 duty? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: What tine? 10 A: At 18:00 hours or 6:00 p.m. 11 Q: All right. And what -- did you 12 receive any briefing at that time as to what your 13 assignment would be? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: Can you recall who gave it and what 16 you were told? 17 A: No, I don't. I do have it noted in 18 my notebook that I received a briefing, but I don't have 19 any recollection of -- of what was discussed or who -- 20 who gave the briefing itself. 21 Q: Do you recall what your -- what your 22 assignment was then? 23 A: I was assigned to attend at 24 Checkpoint 'A', down in the area that the -- the trailer 25 was set up.


1 Q: Where the TOC Centre was? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And did anything of 4 significance occur during the course of this shift on 5 September the 5th? And I see that you're the night-time 6 shift; is that right? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I have two (2) events that I've 13 noted. 14 Q: All right. Perhaps you'd start with 15 the first event. 16 A: At 22:15 hours or at 10:15 p.m. on -- 17 on the 5th of September, myself and Constable Dougan were 18 both assigned to Checkpoint 'A'. At that time we 19 received information over the police radio of a request 20 for assistance by other officers who were at the bend in 21 the road at the end of Army Camp Road in the sandy 22 parking lot. 23 Q: And East Parkway Drive? 24 A: Yes, East Parkway Drive, thanks. 25 Q: All right. Yes, and what did you do?


1 A: They called for assistance that -- 2 that -- they were advising that there was a blockade in 3 the sandy parking lot being erected with picnic tables by 4 the First Nations and that they were having rocks thrown 5 at their cruiser, at them at that point. 6 Q: And did you hear this transmission 7 yourself? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what did you do as a result? 10 A: Constable Dougan and I proceeded from 11 our checkpoint to that location where the officers were 12 requesting assistance. 13 Q: All right. In your cruiser? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you remember what the call number 16 was? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And what did you observe as you 19 approached the -- the bend in the road? 20 A: As we approached that location we 21 parked our cruiser on East Park Drive (sic) closer to the 22 Kettle -- Kettle Point side, exited the cruiser and -- 23 and began to walk up to where the picnic -- picnic table 24 barricade was. 25 As I approached there the front push


1 bumper area of Constable Whelan's car was resting against 2 one (1) of the picnic tables that was stacked in the -- 3 the pile. 4 The -- the cruiser -- as we got into that 5 position other officers arrived as well and the cruiser 6 pushed the picnic tables out of the -- out of the way, 7 or -- 8 Q: When you say -- 9 A: -- pushed some of them. 10 Q: When you say, pushed them out of the 11 way, what do you mean? 12 A: The cruiser advanced and -- and 13 pushed the picnic tables back, not even a car length, to 14 a point where there was an opening in the -- the 15 barricade. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And then the cruiser backed up. 18 Q: And where were these picnic tables 19 located? 20 A: Right across the entranceway of -- to 21 enter -- or right across the entranceway to the sandy 22 parking lot -- parking area right at the end of Army Camp 23 Road. 24 Q: All right. Did you see how many 25 picnic tables there were, approximately, that were part


1 of the barricade? 2 A: I don't really recall a number 3 itself. I recall that they were at least two (2) high 4 and there was a section of steel guardrail that was in 5 amongst the picnic tables as well. 6 Q: Okay. All right. And what happened 7 next? 8 A: The cruiser pushed the -- the picnic 9 tables, opening a -- a gap, backed out and we entered 10 into the -- into the sandy parking lot, myself and the 11 other officers. 12 Q: Now, was that on foot? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And where did you go as 15 you entered on foot? 16 A: As we entered the parking lot there 17 were several First Nations persons in the parking lot. 18 They -- they wanted -- they wanted us to leave the area. 19 And we had them, or asked them to go back into the -- the 20 Provincial Park, that this -- the area of the parking lot 21 wasn't part of Provincial Park. 22 Q: Did you tell them that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you, personally, tell them that? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: There was actually a -- a steel or -- 3 steel farm fence that separates the Provincial Park from 4 the sandy parking lot and -- and I was indicating that 5 that's the boundary of the Park, that that's the fence 6 line, that this isn't part of the Park, that that, in 7 fact, is the Park. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I also cautioned them that they were 10 committing the act of mischief under the Criminal Code by 11 barricading the parking lot. And one of the First 12 Nations persons that were there questioned me about why 13 that that was -- why that would be considered a mischief 14 under the Code. 15 So I -- as we were walking towards their - 16 - their fence line I was discussing with them and 17 explaining how that fell into the definition of mischief 18 under the Criminal Code, and I would continue that 19 discussion once they were on the other side of the fence. 20 All the -- the officers just walked 21 towards the fence and the First Nations just proceeded 22 ahead of us and filtered back into the Park. 23 Q: Okay. And did you receive any verbal 24 responses to what you were saying? 25 A: Well, I was discussing it with one


1 (1) individual whom I don't really know who it was. He 2 seemed to be more reasonable than the others that were 3 there. 4 The others were quite boisterous and 5 profanity and -- and yelling for us to leave and -- and 6 their position was that that was, in fact, part of the 7 Provincial Park. 8 So I was having -- I was trying to explain 9 the law to him and our position and for them to stay in 10 the Park. 11 Q: Okay. What, if anything, happened 12 next? 13 A: During the course of -- of our 14 conversation -- as I say, he seemed to be the most 15 reasonable that I dealt with, and so as I'm discussing 16 with him, over his left shoulder, someone in the shadows 17 or in the -- in the -- someone in the darkness behind 18 him, threw a handful of sand and gravel directly at me 19 and struck me in the face and eyes. 20 Q: Okay. And what was your reaction, if 21 anything? 22 A: From being struck with the sand and 23 gravel, I discharged my pepper spray at the location 24 where the person had threw the sand and gravel at me, had 25 assaulted me with the sand and gravel.


1 Q: And to your knowledge, did the pepper 2 spray actually make contact with any of the First Nations 3 individuals there? 4 A: I believe it did. When pepper spray 5 is deployed like that, or deployed at all, you try and 6 target the individual that -- the one location or the 7 person that you're trying to spray, but there is -- 8 there's always over-spray or misting from it, and it -- 9 and it can affect other persons that are close by, 10 including officers. 11 Q: All right. Did it make contact with 12 the First Nation person with whom you had been 13 specifically engaged with the conversation? 14 A: I don't know if it did. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: But through misting or those other 17 things that happen along with pepper spray, it may have. 18 Q: All right. And then what happened 19 after you discharged the pepper spray? 20 A: From that, we were able to disengage. 21 The First Nations on their side of the fence, backed away 22 from the fence, and it gave me a chance to back away from 23 the fence as well, and clean the sand and get my vision 24 back. 25 Q: All right. And what happened next?


1 A: The other officers also fell back and 2 moved away from the fence, and we began to back out of 3 the parking lot. 4 We backed up to the point where the picnic 5 table piles -- or the piles of the picnic tables or the 6 barricade -- the open barricade still was, and we began 7 to start to dismantle that by hand. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: And move the picnic tables. 10 Q: And where did you remove them to? 11 A: I don't think we got to a point where 12 we actually got them moved very far. When we were in the 13 midst of doing that, then we began to get pelted with 14 rocks and bottles. 15 Q: And what did you do as a result of 16 that? 17 A: The -- the rocks and the bottles 18 themselves were -- were in -- I would say it was a 19 lobbing throw, a distance throw, and they were raining 20 down in and around us. At that point, for our safety, we 21 left the picnic tables and then we further retreated out 22 of that area, backed out of there back towards our 23 cruisers. 24 Myself -- I can't speak for the other 25 officers, but for myself and Constable Dougan we


1 retreated back to our car. We were standing -- I was 2 standing on the passenger side of our car and our car 3 received a -- a throw from a rock, I would say about the 4 size of a softball, to the windshield shattering the 5 windshield of the car. 6 And this throw concerned me because it 7 wasn't one (1) of the lobbing throws, like from a 8 distance, that someone had -- whoever had thrown it had - 9 - had to move closer to our location to -- to give it a 10 direct throw with -- with such force that could cause 11 that. 12 So from the size of the rock and the -- 13 the strength that it was thrown at it actually did give 14 me a lot of concern for our safety so at that point we 15 all decided amongst the -- or officers to leave the area 16 immediately. 17 So we got in our cruisers and backed out 18 of the area. 19 Q: All right. And went where? 20 A: Pardon me? 21 Q: Went -- where did you go? 22 A: Went back to our checkpoint at 23 Checkpoint 'A'. 24 Q: Checkpoint 'A' down at the TOC? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Now, were you wearing, or were the 2 officers wearing helmets during the course of this event? 3 A: No, we were wearing ball caps. 4 Q: Ball caps? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what else were you wearing? 7 A: At -- at this time we'd changed 8 uniforms and now we're wearing a grey tactical uniform. 9 Q: Okay. All right. And at the time 10 did you have a moustache? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And were you balding at that time? 13 A: Yes. Not as much as today but, yes. 14 Q: Fair enough. Thank you. Now, when 15 you discharged the pepper spray did that constitute an 16 act of -- of force? 17 A: Yes, it -- yes, it was. 18 Q: And did you believe that you had 19 justifiable grounds to exercise that use of force? 20 A: Yes, from the act of the gravel and 21 the sand being thrown in my face that would be an assault 22 act by the person that did it, thereby assaulting a 23 police officer, and that I have authority to use my 24 pepper spray to defend myself from that assault or 25 prevent any further assault from happening.


1 Q: All right. And were you obliged to 2 file any type of report from this use of force? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And to your knowledge did you? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And to your knowledge did -- did you 7 receive any -- any concerns expressed to you from your 8 actions on that night? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now, did you recognize any of the 11 First Nations individuals who were in the sandy parking 12 lot and in behind the -- the Park fence during this -- 13 this event? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: All right. By this -- at this point 16 -- by this point of time which First Nations individuals 17 did you have the ability to recognize and identify by 18 name? 19 A: Well, from my previous encounters I 20 was aware of -- of Dudley George, Judas George, and I'd 21 become familiar with a person, I don't know his proper 22 name but his nickname was Worm. 23 Q: All right. And that's it at this 24 point? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. Do you recall at any point in 2 time witnessing any picnic tables ending up on the hood 3 of any of the police cruisers? 4 A: I don't have any recollection of 5 that. 6 Q: Do you recall at any time there being 7 any statements in your presence or by you to the First 8 Nations individuals to the effect of, quote, "Welcome to 9 Canada"? 10 A: I didn't hear that. 11 Q: And you didn't say that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you recall Dudley George being 14 present at this event? 15 A: No, I didn't recognize him there? 16 Q: All right. And the time of this 17 event would have been approximately when? 18 A: The call for assistance was at 10:15. 19 I believe we were only there fifteen (15) twenty (20) 20 minutes. So between, you know, 10:15 and 10:30. 21 Q: And what were the lighting 22 conditions? 23 A: Poor. 24 Q: Insofar as? 25 A: I believe there's a dim overhead


1 light at the intersection and that would be all the 2 lighting that would be there. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now as you may know, we've heard some 7 evidence from other witnesses to date and one of those 8 witnesses that we have heard from is an individual by the 9 name of David George who is one (1) of the First Nation 10 occupiers present at the Park throughout the 4th to the 11 6th of 1995. 12 And he testified on October the 19th, 2004 13 and I'm looking at the vicinity of pages 182 to 185 of 14 the transcript. But in any event and I'm just 15 summarizing at this point. 16 But he testified that on September the 17 5th, 1995: 18 "There was a group of police officers 19 who came up to them during the late 20 afternoon sometime, about four (4) or 21 five (5) of them came walking up to the 22 fence. 23 They asked who our leaders were. I 24 said we didn't have any leaders. One 25 of the guys said welcome to Canada. He


1 was looking right at us. He zeroed in 2 on Dudley and he said "Come on out 3 here, Dudley, you're going to be the 4 first." 5 The police officer was short and stocky 6 with reddish brown hair. I hadn't seen 7 him before. I think Dudley George 8 might have told the police officer to 9 fuck off or something like that and 10 then gave him the finger. 11 Right after the officer threatened 12 Dudley's life someone came up from 13 behind me to my right. He threw sand 14 at the officer, it didn't hit him. 15 After the sand was thrown, the officer 16 stepped up and stuck his arm over the 17 fence. 18 He tried to spray as many people as he 19 could get with mace but everyone ducked 20 back. I got a little bit on my 21 forehead and some on my arm. 22 The officer was basically asking for a 23 fight. He was trying to get tough. 24 After the officer sprayed the mace, the 25 officers left. I think there were a


1 couple of them standing there holding 2 their telescopic batons too. 3 This incident occurred on September 5th 4 probably later in the afternoon. The 5 sun was still kind of high." 6 Now, does this -- were you present at any 7 such event over which the comments "Welcome to Canada" or 8 "Come out here Dudley, you're going to be the first" or 9 anything to that affect was said in your presence? 10 A: Some of what you just read is 11 consistent with what I -- I gave evidence to. But there 12 was a lot of inconsistencies there that -- that I can't 13 agree with. 14 Like I -- I didn't hear any of that. Out 15 of those things I -- I don't -- it didn't happen. 16 Q: Did you have batons that night during 17 this event? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you describe them? 20 A: We had twenty-six (26) inch wooden 21 baton. 22 Q: And -- all right. Now when you first 23 -- when you saw Officer Whelan's car, you said he was 24 resting against the picnic table and then you said it 25 proceeded and pushed the picnic tables to make a pathway


1 on the sandy parking lot. 2 Is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now were there any people sitting on 5 that picnic table or on any of those picnic tables when 6 that event occurred? 7 A: I didn't see anyone there, no. 8 Q: Did you see anyone standing such that 9 they were in between the bumper of the car and the picnic 10 tables when the car proceeded to -- to bump those picnic 11 tables? 12 A: No. No, I did not. 13 Q: I'm going to read to you -- summarize 14 for you some further evidence of David George that was 15 given at pages 14 to 17, the transcript October 20th, 16 2004 and this is with respect to a picnic table incident 17 on the late afternoon of September the 5th. 18 "They'd been there for about forty (40) 19 minutes when the OPP came to deal with 20 the picnic tables. I don't remember 21 anyone coming out to speak with us. 22 They just came in there with about four 23 (4) cars. 24 They pulled up close to where we were 25 sitting on the picnic tables. I don't


1 think they were going -- I didn't think 2 they were going to ram us but they kept 3 going. 4 Cars were pushing picnic tables towards 5 the lake and the Park at the same time. 6 It was on a diagonal. The police cars 7 were probably going no faster than 8 walking speed. 9 It was possible to move out of the way. 10 But there were people standing there 11 and they didn't care. They came up to 12 them and started pushing the people. 13 There were picnic tables behind the 14 people, so that they were kind of 15 pinned between the picnic tables and 16 the cars. 17 They kept pushing. That's when we 18 decided to pick up the picnic tables 19 and throw them on top of the cars. 20 I probably helped put two (2) picnic 21 tables on the cars. We just flipped 22 them up onto the hoods. The picnic 23 tables rode up on the bumpers so it was 24 easy just to pick one (1) end up, flip 25 it over and roll it on top of the car,


1 onto the front hood. They just kept 2 going. 3 Some people started throwing rocks. I 4 think I might have thrown a few rocks 5 at the police cruisers. 6 They kept pushing. The police officers 7 were all inside the cruisers. There 8 weren't any outside, so when the rocks 9 were being thrown, they were being 10 thrown at the cruisers. 11 Then the police took off. The picnic 12 tables that were on the cruiser hoods 13 probably rolled off. 14 I think we dragged them back over. The 15 whole incident with the picnic tables 16 probably lasted maybe fifty (50) 17 seconds." 18 Now, having provided you with that, does 19 that alter your recollection of the events in any way? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Thank you. All right, and you 25 indicated you went back to the -- to Alf -- sorry --


1 check -- Checkpoint "A"? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did any further events or 4 incidents occur after that? 5 For the balance of your shift? 6 A: Yeah, one -- yes, one other incident 7 that I have noted. 8 Following -- on my relief at Checkpoint 9 'A' in the morning, I was relieved at 7:10 a.m. by 10 members of the 3 and 6 District ERT, so then one (1) 11 member probably from each team that -- or one (1) group 12 of two (2) from each team that attended and relieved us 13 of our -- of our checkpoint. 14 Following that, we were detailed, myself I 15 was detailed to assist in attending at the -- back to the 16 sandy parking lot in the morning to retrieve the picnic 17 tables that were -- were scattered around there. 18 Q: All right, and did you do so? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what did you see when you arrived 21 at the sandy parking lot the next morning, then? 22 A: There were several picnic tables 23 around. There was two (2) Native males there, Dudley and 24 Worm. 25 On our arrival both ran back into the


1 Provincial Park. 2 Q: And what was the configuration of the 3 picnic tables at that time? 4 A: I don't specifically recall. 5 Q: Sorry? 6 A: I don't -- I don't specifically 7 recall. They were -- several tables, all around the 8 area. 9 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 10 not they were in a circle? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: You -- 13 A: There was a small fire there, though. 14 Q: All right. And what did you proceed 15 to do then? 16 A: We retrieved the picnic tables, 17 loaded them onto a -- a trailer or a -- I believe, like a 18 farm type trailer and transported them out of the area. 19 Q: All right. Now, what uniform were 20 you wearing at this point? 21 A: Grey tactical uniform. 22 Q: And did you have any -- any 23 instruments with you? 24 A: I was wearing my ball cap, but I also 25 had a plexiglass police shield that I was carrying.


1 Q: A police shield, is that a new piece 2 of equipment that you were carrying during this -- 3 A: That's a piece from my crowd 4 management equipment. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I just carried the shield; I didn't 7 have any other pieces of the crowd management gear with 8 me. 9 Q: Did anyone have any long guns, any of 10 the police officers? 11 A: There may have been. 12 Q: Were any weapons drawn at this event? 13 A: Only the long guns. 14 Q: Why were they drawn? 15 A: I don't specifically know. I wasn't 16 -- I wasn't detailed to carry one (1). 17 Q: All right. Did you draw any weapons? 18 A: No. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I just would like to have a little 23 clarification with respect to the location of -- of 24 Checkpoint 'A'. This is during your night shift, 25 September 5th to 6th.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Do you recall specifically where that 3 was located? 4 A: It was parked or the Checkpoint was 5 on the roadway, East Park roadway at -- at the TOC site. 6 Q: Was it right at the TOC site, or was 7 it closer to the -- down the road towards the Park? 8 A: No, it was at the TOC site. I could 9 see the TOC site where we were parked. 10 Q: All right, thank you. 11 Now, when did you return to duty? 12 A: My next day would be the 6th of 13 September, '95. 14 Q: All right. And again, did you 15 continue to maintain notes with respect to the 5th and 16 the 6th of 1995 in your usual practice? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And if you would go to Tab 10, this 19 is Inquiry document number 2003550. 20 Can you identify that document, please? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: That would be a photocopy of -- of my


1 notes, my police notes. 2 Q: And for the time period starting, it 3 looks like approximately 7:10 a.m. September 5th and 4 proceeding to Friday, September the 8th. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you made these notes 7 contemporaneously with the events recorded? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: And have you made any alterations or 10 changes since the creation of those notes? 11 A: No, I have not. 12 Q: I'd like to make this the next 13 exhibit, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1252, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1252: Document Number 2003550. 17 Handwritten OPP notebook 18 entries of P/C Mark Gransden, 19 September 06, 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: All right, now did you receive any 23 briefing when you returned to duty at approximately 6:00 24 p.m. on September the 6th, 1995? 25 A: Yes, I have noted that I was briefed.


1 Again, though, I don't have any recollection of what was 2 discussed or who gave the briefing. 3 Q: All right. And what assignments were 4 you given at that time? 5 A: Myself and my partner that night was 6 Constable Dougan again, and we were assigned to attend at 7 Checkpoint D, on Army Camp Road. 8 Q: Now, I'd like to hand up a checkpoint 9 map at this point. And perhaps we could put it on the 10 screen, as you have it Exhibit P-437. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: All right. And perhaps you could -- 15 could you show us first on the map that's there, what 16 checkpoint you were initially assigned to? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Initially that evening I was assigned 21 to Checkpoint 'D'. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I -- 24 Q: And is that -- 25 A: -- don't really have a recollection


1 of that, 'cause it was very brief that I was at that 2 initial stage. 3 Q: All right. Was it in the vicinity of 4 where Checkpoint 'D' is -- is marked or shown on Exhibit 5 P-437? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And maybe you can just describe it, 8 the location then. 9 A: It is on Army Camp Road and I have -- 10 well, I'll say that the lake side of -- of -- from 21 11 Highway. It's in the vicinity of the front entranceway 12 of the Army Camp. 13 Q: All right. Thank you. All right. 14 And what was your -- what was your task there? 15 A: To stop and -- and check vehicles 16 coming and going on the -- on the roadway. 17 Q: And on the -- the map that's in place 18 before you, the checkpoint map, would you also put a 19 marker as to where you recall Checkpoint 'D' being, with 20 a number 1, please? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Did anything of significance occur at 25 Checkpoint 'D' in your initial assignment?


1 A: No, I wasn't there very long. 2 Q: All right. Where did you go? 3 A: I was re-assigned to Checkpoint 'C'. 4 Q: All right. And can you show us on 5 the diagram or map Exhibit P-437, as it goes up for you, 6 where that was? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Are you able to make that out? We're 11 showing Army Camp Road and Matheson Drive at the top. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: On the map that you gave me it -- 'C' 16 is indicated at Matheson Drive. 17 Q: Yes, what's your recollection of 18 where -- 19 A: On the overhead it -- Matheson Drive, 20 I believe, is this roadway here? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And Checkpoint 'C' is actually -- 23 I'll say east, but closer to 21 Highway than Matheson 24 Drive. And my recollection was that we weren't actually 25 -- we were in -- more in this vicinity of where the


1 trailer park is there. 2 Q: Do you remember which trailer park? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: All right. Can you mark it on the 5 map in front of you with a number 2, please, Checkpoint 6 'C', where you recall being stationed that night? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Do you recall Sunnyside Trailer Park? 11 A: I know there is a trailer park on 12 that roadway, but I'm not familiar what the names are. 13 Q: And was it at the trailer park or...? 14 A: I know that it was in the area of the 15 trailer parks. 16 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Thank you. 17 A: But I don't -- I don't know. 18 Q: And what, if anything, of 19 significance did you observe while at Checkpoint Charlie 20 or Checkpoint 'C', excuse me? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: During my time at Checkpoint 'C' a 25 vehicle went by and we were jacklighted --


1 Q: What does that mean? 2 A: -- meaning that they -- they were 3 shining bright spotlights on us at our checkpoints. 4 Q: Did you observe any activity in the 5 Military Camp from your observation point? 6 A: Just the lighting up of us, the 7 spotlights, and an increased amount of vehicle traffic 8 within the Army Camp. 9 Q: And what time were you assigned to 10 Checkpoint 'C'? 11 A: At 7:05 p.m. 12 Q: All right. And during the course of 13 your -- your attendance at Checkpoint 'C' were you 14 approached by a -- a civilian? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you tell us about that? 17 A: While I was at Checkpoint 'C' a 18 civilian vehicle stopped and driver indicated that his 19 vehicle had been damaged while he was travelling on East 20 Park -- or down in the area of the sandy parking lot 21 area. 22 I didn't speak to him directly, I spoke to 23 one (1) of the other officers, but I was -- I was there. 24 Q: All right. Do you recall who the 25 civilian was?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Or what their ethnicity was? 3 A: I believe they were First Nations. 4 Q: And do you know what, if anything, 5 the civilian was advised? 6 A: I believe he was referred to one (1) 7 of the detectives. 8 Q: Do you remember which one? 9 A: I believe it was Mark Wright that he 10 was requested to speak to. 11 Q: All right. And what did you do after 12 being assigned to Checkpoint 'C'? 13 A: Following my assignment? 14 Q: To Checkpoint 'C', yes. 15 A: I was redeployed to Checkpoint 'D' 16 again. 17 Q: Do you recall what time? 18 A: At approximately 9:30 p.m. 19 Q: And where is Checkpoint 'D' then? 20 Perhaps you can describe it and then mark it on your map. 21 A: Checkpoint 'D' was moved from where 22 it's showing there, to the D-1 position. 23 Q: So D-1 on Exhibit P-437 is accurate, 24 and that's where you were sent to? 25 A: Actually, I would say no, that's not


1 fully accurate. This being the front entrance way to the 2 -- the Army Camp that -- 3 Q: No, I don't think that -- that -- the 4 front entrance way was closer to the corner of Highway 21 5 and Army Camp, probably more in this vicinity. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Under the 'C' of Checkpoint 'D', 10 that's -- that's where approximately the main Army Camp 11 gate was. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: That would orient you? 14 A: Our checkpoint was actually moved 15 towards the lake further. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And it was, I would say more in this 18 vicinity because we were on the -- a little bit past the 19 edge of the built-up area to the -- to the Army Camp. 20 Q: Okay. So just past where -- do you 21 recall seeing a yard where cars were kept? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So just past that point towards the 24 lake? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. Thank you. Would you 2 mark that on your map, please, with the number 3? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: All right. And did anything of 7 significance transpire then, when you were stationed at 8 the -- the moved Checkpoint 'D' location? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Several things occurred -- 13 Q: All right. Tell us what you recall. 14 A: -- at that time. I was reassigned to 15 Checkpoint 'D', and from what I observed -- and then at 16 that point the road was actually closed off. 17 Q: And why was that? 18 A: Because there was a -- the CMU was 19 going to be operating or deploying down to the sandy 20 parking lot area. 21 Q: And what did you know about that? 22 A: I wasn't assigned to the CMU so I 23 heard bits and pieces of it over the -- the police radio. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Checkpoint 'C' was disbanded and some


1 officers from Checkpoint 'C' were assigned to the CMU to 2 supplement their manpower. 3 And the remaining of us from 'C' then were 4 redeployed to 'D'; that's when we got redeployed. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And I know that they were forming up 7 a CMU, and then I was reassigned to Checkpoint 'D'. 8 Q: All right. And you were listening 9 over the radio communications? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And were those -- those the radio 12 communications that had the CMU activities on them? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Proceed. What happened next? 15 A: In the meantime, before the CMU was 16 deployed I noted several vehicles travelling again inside 17 the Army Camp on the gravel road that parallels Army Camp 18 Road, just inside the -- the fence line, one of them 19 being a large full-size dump truck, back and forth 20 numerous times. 21 At a point in time the -- the dump truck 22 sounded it's air horn for an extended period of time, to 23 up to five (5) seconds. 24 And at the edge of the gravel road in the 25 built-up area of the Army Camp, there was, I believe, two


1 (2) vehicles initially and several Natives standing 2 around there. And at the sound of the air horn from the 3 dump truck, they lit a large bonfire at that location -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- using hay bales and -- and 6 pallets, wooden pallets. 7 Q: Did that -- any of this cause you 8 concern? 9 A: I felt that it was a signal for 10 something, but I didn't know what. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: The air horn, the blast of the air 13 horn was significant, that it seemed to be a signal as 14 opposed to warning a deer or a pedestrian or something 15 like that; it was like a signal. And then immediately 16 the -- the fire was lit, large bonfire was lit. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And we remained in that position and 19 kept observation of the -- the persons at the fire. And 20 one (1) of the vehicles had left and left two (2) -- two 21 (2) male Natives at the fire. 22 We remained there and then over the police 23 radio I could hear formations being called out by the -- 24 Wade Lacroix, the CMU Commander. 25 Q: Okay. Formations where, do you know?


1 A: And the -- what that would be is -- 2 is he would radio over -- his radio would be connected to 3 the -- the helmets of the officers in the Crowd 4 Management or the CMU. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: So he would order them into different 7 formations of -- of marching, defensive positions, type 8 of thing. 9 Q: All right. So this is once the CMU 10 is deployed? 11 A: They are -- yeah, as they were 12 deploying -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- you could hear him telling them 15 what to do. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: As I say, you could -- over the radio 18 you could hear the CMU being -- formations being ordered 19 out, and being under -- familiar with what -- what that 20 would entail. 21 At a point in time the radio channel 22 opened, I heard Staff Sergeant Lacroix speaking, and in 23 the background I could hear gunshots over the radio. 24 Q: And were you able to identify the 25 nature of the gunshots, or the number?


1 A: No. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: It was just the -- the radio channel 4 would open, and I heard the gunshots, and the radio 5 channel closed again. He spoke and then -- advising that 6 there had been shots fired, and then the -- the channel 7 closed again. 8 Q: All right. Is that all that you 9 heard -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- with respect to the gunshots? All 12 right. And then at this point in time what -- did you 13 draw any assumptions as to what was occurring? 14 A: That there were shots fired in the 15 vicinity of the CMU, and I didn't know what the nature of 16 the shots were. 17 Q: Okay. What, if anything, did you do 18 in response to hearing the shots? 19 A: Following hearing the shots, we took 20 up a defensive position in the ditches in the area around 21 our cars at our checkpoint. 22 Q: And why did you go into the ditches? 23 A: For safety, as a cover position. 24 Q: All right. And how long did you stay 25 in the ditches?


1 A: Not a long period of time. We were 2 there for -- for -- I'm not sure how to estimate the 3 time, but then we were re-assigned to vacate our 4 checkpoint from Checkpoint 'D' and move up onto 21 5 Highway, moving it towards -- closer to Kettle Point. 6 Q: And -- and did you go there? 7 A: Following that order we got in our 8 cruisers and we left Checkpoint 'D', proceeded up the 21 9 Highway and then turned towards the Kettle Point area. 10 Q: So that would have been a right -- 11 right-hand turn? 12 A: We were somewhere down in this 13 vicinity. We vacated there, travelled up this way and -- 14 and then came to a stop somewhere up in this area. 15 Q: And do you know how many metres, 16 approximately, away from Army Camp Road you stopped? 17 A: I would estimate about a hundred 18 (100) metres. 19 Q: Okay. So -- and this towards -- on 20 Highway 21 towards Kettle Point direction? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: All right. And how many cars were 23 there? 24 A: Previous to us -- our checkpoint 25 here, there was a -- a uniform -- uniformed officers here


1 and I don't know how many. And by 'uniform' I mean there 2 was officers there that were regular road officers in -- 3 in a light blue shirt and blue striped pants. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And they were at 21 Highway and Army 6 Camp Road while we were at Checkpoint 'D'. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I believe they got ordered to leave 9 that area at the same time as we did. We left 'D', 10 proceeded down here and came to a stop, as I said, in -- 11 in this area, Constable Dougan and myself. 12 Q: And would you be able to mark on your 13 map, with number 4, where you move to on Highway 21? 14 Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I think we're going to -- did anything 19 else of significance happen at that point in time? 20 A: Well there is other events that 21 continued on past this. 22 Q: All right. I wonder, before we go 23 into the next events, I would like to suggest we take a 24 lunch break here. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.


1 We'll take a lunch break now. We'll take a lunch break. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 3 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 1:01 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Officer, I wonder if we might make 16 the checkpoint map, which you have been placing marks on, 17 the next exhibit at this time, please. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1253, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1253. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1253: Ipperwash OPP Checkpoint Map, 22 September 07, 1995. Marked 23 by Witness Mark Gransden, 24 March 30, 2006. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: All right. Now I'd like to hand up a 3 further map at this time, it's a -- what it is is it's a 4 close up of Exhibit P-437, of the Highway 21 and Army 5 Camp Road and Military Base, essentially. 6 And, Officer, prior to lunch you had just 7 indicated that you had been ordered to move so that you 8 are now on Highway 21, about a hundred (100) metres from 9 the intersection of Army Camp Road towards the -- the 10 Kettle Point direction. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And perhaps on that map you would 13 once again, with an 'X' and a number 1, put where you 14 are. 15 And the road is closed off, you've said, 16 now, a little bit earlier the road was closed and what -- 17 what is the next event as you are positioned in this 18 location, that comes to mind? 19 A: The road was actually closed off 20 previous to the CMU deployment. 21 Q: Right. Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: All right --


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- following -- following the take 3 down of Checkpoint Delta or Checkpoint 'D' and when we 4 moved to 21 Highway, the cruiser that P/C Dougan and I 5 were in, we came to a stop and the regular uniformed cars 6 were there as well, the light blue shirt officers, from 7 the corner I'd moved to that position as well. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: When we got to that position I looked 10 back and there was still another OPP cruiser that was on 11 Army Camp Road. 12 Q: On the lake side of 21? 13 A: Yes. And had -- had an exit off of 14 Army Camp Road. I looked back and I saw a -- a vehicle 15 proceed out of the Army Camp. The vehicle came out -- 16 out of the main entranceway of the Army Camp. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Proceeded onto Army Camp Road and 19 towards the highway -- the intersection of 21 Highway. 20 When it came to the intersection at Highway 21, the 21 vehicle failed to stop for the stop sign at Highway 21, 22 and then it turned onto 21, of the left turn heading 23 towards Grand Bend. 24 Q: All right. And perhaps on the 25 diagram before you, you might just make an arrow and -- a


1 line and an arrow of what you've just described 2 representing the path of the vehicle that exited from the 3 Army Camp. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And just before you carry on, the -- 8 the police car that was still on Army Camp Road as you 9 turned back -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- was that -- where was that in 12 relation to the Army Camp base? 13 A: It would be between the main entrance 14 -- the main gate area and the lake. 15 Q: Okay. And would you be able to put, 16 as an estimate, where that vehicle was when the vehicle 17 exited the Army Camp? 18 A: I -- I don't have a recollection of 19 exactly where it was, I know that it was -- it was west, 20 it was lakeside of the main entrance. 21 Q: Okay. So it was -- but it was behind 22 that car? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you. 25 A: The car actually exited and then was


1 ahead of that -- that police car. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: As I said, the vehicle exited from 4 the Army Camp, came out to the intersection of Highway 21 5 then turned left and proceeded down Highway 21. The 6 police cruiser that was to the rear of that, when it 7 exited the Army Camp, followed in behind the vehicle and 8 also made a left turn onto 21 Highway heading towards 9 Grand Bend. 10 Q: All right. So from Army Camp Road to 11 21 Highway, makes a left -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- proceeds towards Grand Bend? 14 A: Correct. And it's now following -- 15 excuse me, it's now following the vehicle ahead. The 16 police cruiser had activated it's emergency flashing 17 lights. 18 Q: At what point in time? 19 A: I -- I don't recall when it actually 20 activated the lights -- 21 Q: All right. 22 A: -- if it was previous to its turn 23 onto 21 Highway or not. I noted that the police car was 24 following the -- the vehicle ahead with its emergency 25 lights flashing.


1 P/C -- Constable Dougan and myself got 2 into our cruiser, and we U-turned our cruiser and 3 proceeded up Highway 21 north as well, towards Grand 4 Bend, and got in behind the leading police cruiser. 5 And at that point our emergency lights 6 were flashing as well. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: And we were assisting them in the 9 pursuit of the vehicle that left the -- I observed 10 leaving the Army Camp main gate. 11 Q: All right. And what was the 12 approximate speed at which the three (3) vehicles were 13 travelling at this point? 14 A: I would estimate the -- estimate the 15 speed to be around the posted speed limit. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Approximately eighty (80) kilometres 18 per hour. 19 Q: And did anyone have sirens on at this 20 initial part of the pursuit? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: You would be the third car in the 23 succession? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And at any point in time were


1 instructions sought by either yourself or the other 2 vehicle -- the other police vehicle from the Command 3 Post? 4 A: Yes. Due to this being a -- a police 5 pursuit of a vehicle that wasn't yielding to our 6 emergency lights, the first police vehicle behind that 7 vehicle would be considered a primary pursuit vehicle -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: -- and the communications would, for 10 the most part, come from the primary pursuit vehicle. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know, now, who was 12 driving that car or who the police officers were in that 13 car, so that we can follow? 14 A: I believe the driver was Constable 15 Lorch and the passenger was Constable Bell. 16 Q: All right. And you were in your car 17 with Constable Dougan? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And who was the driver? 20 A: Constable Dougan was the driver. 21 Q: Okay. All right. And did you -- 22 were you privy to the radio communication? 23 A: I could overhear their 24 communications. 25 Q: And do you recall what -- what


1 transpired over the course of that communication? 2 A: There was radio communications 3 indicating that we were in pursuit of the vehicle that 4 had left the Army Camp, that we were northbound on 21 5 Highway, and I believe they were looking for direction 6 from the Command Post as to what they wanted us to do at 7 that point. 8 Q: All right. At this point I'd like to 9 play this brief communication, it is from Chatham 10 Communications Centre, log tape number 0146, track 12, 11 disc 12 of 20. And it's noted as, according to the 12 Communications Centre log, 23:14 hours. And I have a 13 transcript which I'd like to hand up at this time please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And perhaps if we could play that 18 now. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 21 22 [Delta 2411 = Constable Steve Lorch] 23 [Alpha = Unknown] 24 [Lima 2 = TOC] 25 [CP = Lima 1]


1 [Prisoner Van = Constable Denis Leblanc] 2 3 Low Speed Pursuit of Marcia Simon (cars and Lima 2) 4 23:14 hrs. 5 6 Delta 2411: Lima 2 from Delta. 7 Alpha: Delta, this is Alpha. We read you. We're 8 by the TOC. Go ahead. 9 Delta 2411: Delta, as we were coming up Army Camp 10 Road, a vehicle left the Army Base. We 11 are in low-speed pursuit. Do you wish us 12 to continue to attempt to stop this 13 vehicle? East on 21. 14 Lima 2: 10-4 to the unit pursuing. Continue to 15 follow. 16 Delta 2411: 10-4. Licence 935 HHT, Ontario marker. 17 Lima 2: That's 10-4. Continue to follow. Do not 18 light up. 19 Delta 2411: 10-4. We've deactivated our lights and 20 we'll continue to follow. Confirm: 21 that's a second cruiser following us? 22 Unknown: Gransden and ... inaudible ... yeah. 1 23 District ERT behind you. Gransden and ... 24 inaudible... 25 Delta 2411: Lima 2, Delta.


1 Lima 2: Go ahead, Delta, Lima 2. Go ahead. 2 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... red Nova. 3 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2, go ahead. 4 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... 5 6 23:33 hrs. 7 Delta 2411: 2411 to TOC site. 2411 to Lima 2. 8 Lima 2: Go ahead, 2411. 9 Delta 2411: 10-4. We have 10-92 female. Do you have 10 a wagon there for transport to Forest? 11 Lima 2: You're at Alpha position? 12 Delta 2411: Negative. We were involved in a pursuit. 13 Vehicle on 21 Highway. Apprehended the 14 driver. We're going to bring her back. 15 Lima 2: 10-4. Don't bring her back here. I would 16 suggest she go to Forest. 17 Delta 2411: 10-4. We also have an elderly passenger 18 female. Do you want her in Forest as 19 well? 20 Lima 2: Is she . is she in custody? 21 Delta 2411: Negative. 22 Lima 2: Then she can go wherever she wants to if 23 she's not in custody. 24 Delta 2411: 10-4. I'll drop her back at CFB 25 Ipperwash.


1 Lima 2: Yeah. Just stand by on that one. Lima 1, 2 Lima 2. Lima 1, Lima 2. Lima 1, Lima 2. 3 Lima 2: Unit with the female under arrest. 4 Delta 2411: 2411. 5 Lima 2: 2411. Do you have to drive right past 6 that location? 7 Delta 2411: 10-4. We do. We're between Grand Bend 8 and the base. 9 Lima 2: 10-4. Delta, Lima 2. 10 Delta 2411: Lima 2, Delta. 11 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2. What's the situation at 12 that location? 13 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... 10-92 with the 14 ambulance. We have two uniforms 15 accompanying the ambulance. We have 6 16 members and myself at this location. 17 Lima 2: 10-4. Is there anything going on there? 18 Delta 2411: No, it's quiet now. They're taking the 19 10-92 to Strathroy Hospital. 20 Lima 2: Lima 1, Lima 2. 21 CP: Lima 1, Lima 2. Go ahead, Lima 1. 22 Lima 2: Lima 1, Lima 2. 2411 has one female in 23 custody from that vehicle they were 24 pursuing and they have one elderly female 25 not in custody. Where would you want her


1 dropped off or taken to? 2 CP: Well, if they're going to arrest them, 3 send a prisoner van up and bring them down 4 to Forest Detachment for now. 5 Lima 2: 10-4. They're inquiring. It's an elderly 6 female. Can she be dropped off at the 7 Army Camp or bring her in? 8 CP: Just a . just stand by one. Stand by one. 9 I'll check with the Detective Sergeant. 10 CP: Lima 2 from Lima 1. If the . the young 11 female, was she the driver, then? 12 Lima 2: 10-4. ...inaudible ... 13 CP: 10-4. Okay. Arrest the driver and make 14 arrangements for the elderly one. We'll 15 get her identified and then run her back 16 to the Army Base there. 17 Lima 2: 10-4. 2411, did you copy? 18 Delta 2411: Yeah. In reference to the prisoner van if 19 it's still in the area, we can relay or 20 transfer our prisoner to the van if it's 21 going to Forest. 22 Lima 2: 10-4. 23 Delta 2411: 10-4. Attending your location. 24 Delta 2411: Lima 2, 2411. 25 Lima 2: Go ahead, 2411. Lima 2.


1 Delta 2411: 10-4. Is it possible to make a meet with 2 the prisoner van? 3 Lima 2: Prisoner van, Lima 2. 4 Prisoner Van: Go ahead. 5 Lima 2: What's your locale right now? 6 Prisoner Van: At the TOC. 7 Lima 2: 10-4. Can you make a rondo with 2411? 8 They have a female prisoner to go to 9 Forest. 10 Prisoner Van: 10-4. Where would they like me to meet 11 them? 12 Lima 2: Where would you like to meet 2411? 13 They're at the TOC. 14 Delta 2411: We're in Ravenswood now. 15 Prisoner Van: 10-4. Leaving the TOC en route to 16 Ravenswood now. 17 Lima 2: Is that Okay? Is everybody squared away 18 there? 19 Unknown: 10-4. 20 21 End of conversation 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:


1 Q: And I believe that's the end of the 2 transmission. It's a little hard to follow, but I note 3 that -- first of all can you help us, in following the 4 transcript, with identifying who was speaking, identified 5 as Delta 2411? 6 A: I'm not, excuse me, I'm not sure what 7 the Delta designation would be, it may be the Delta 8 checkpoint vehicles. The 2411 would be the call number 9 for the cruiser. 10 Q: And do you remember who -- did you 11 recognize the voice, I should say. 12 A: Well, the -- I believe that to be Ron 13 Bell. 14 Q: Ron Bell? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Constable Ron Bell. 18 Q: And that was Constable Steven Lorch's 19 partner at the time? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: All right. And then Alpha, can you 22 help us with that? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: Call sign Alpha, again I -- it may be 2 the checkpoint Alpha. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: It's possible that the sergeant may 5 have been at the Alpha checkpoint and that's why he -- he 6 indicated Alpha. That's my only understanding of that. 7 Q: But did you recognize the -- the 8 voice? 9 A: I'd have to hear it again. I didn't 10 recognize it when I heard it the first time. 11 Q: All right. And you've heard this 12 tape before, have you? 13 A: I have. 14 Q: Lima 2? 15 A: Lima 2 would be the second in charge 16 sergeant for the ERT -- ERT team working. 17 Q: Do you know who that was? 18 A: I know that we were -- there were 19 several sergeants working. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Our team, our Lima 2 would have been 22 Sergeant Rob Graham. However, there were several 23 sergeants working in conjunction with the CMU. I -- I'm 24 not sure who that would be, but it -- from my team, it 25 would have been Sergeant Rob Graham.


1 Q: All right. It was likely the 2 Sergeant Graham, but you're not sure? 3 A: I'm not sure. 4 Q: Okay, thank you. And there's an 5 indication or an instruction that, Do not light up. 6 What did that mean? 7 A: We took from that to deactivate our 8 emergency flashing lights. 9 Q: All right. And did you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. I'd like to mark the -- the 12 tape as the next exhibit, please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1254, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1254: Transcript of Region 01, 16 Steve Lorch - Alpha - Lima 2 17 - Prisoner Van, September 06, 18 1995, 23:14 hrs. Chatham 19 Communications Centre, Logger 20 Tape number 0146, Track 12, 21 Disc 12 of 20. 22 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And maybe we can make 24 that (a), and can we make item (b) the transcript? No, 25 sorry, hang on.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: As a matter -- as an 4 administrative matter, we're going to be playing two (2) 5 additional radio transmissions, they will all be part of 6 this exhibit and we'll mark the exhibits as separate -- 7 the transcripts as separate exhibits. 8 So then the next exhibit will be the 9 transcript of the 23:14 hour radio communication of 10 September 6th, 1995. 11 THE REGISTRAR: That is P-1254. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 54. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: All right. All right, sorry. And 17 when you deactivate your lights, are you still travelling 18 along Highway 21 toward the Grand Bend area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And what happens next? 21 A: We deactivate our lights and we 22 continue to follow the -- the vehicle ahead of us. The 23 vehicle ahead proceeded down to the Hamlet of Northville. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Once we got into Northville, it made


1 a left turn into a private parking lot at a restaurant. 2 Q: All right. And let me just ask you, 3 before you get to the restaurant: At any point during 4 the pursuit, did you attempt to stop the vehicle? 5 A: Well the attempt to stop the vehicle 6 was made with the emergency lights on the -- activated on 7 the police cruisers. 8 Q: All right. Was there any -- anything 9 in addition to that signal that represented an attempt to 10 stop the vehicle? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did -- at any time did you or did you 13 observe the car ahead of you pull up beside the vehicle 14 that you were pursuing? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. So now you're at a plaza 17 restaurant in Northville? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And what happened next? 20 A: The vehicle ahead proceeded to the 21 rear parking lot area of the restaurant to the location 22 of a phone booth. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: The vehicle came to a stop facing the 25 phone booth at the back of the parking lot, followed by


1 the primary vehicle, Constable Lorch's vehicle, which 2 came to a stop to the rear of that vehicle. 3 Our vehicle came to a stop somewhat to the 4 side of and to the rear of Constable Lorch's vehicle. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: As it came to a stop, I observed the 7 person leave the dri -- or the vehicle of the -- that we 8 were pursuing, proceed around the front of the vehicle 9 and enter into the phone booth. 10 When we exited our vehicles we proceeded 11 to the back and took a defensive position with our Ruger 12 rifles. 13 Q: With your what? 14 A: With our rifles. 15 Q: What type of rifles? 16 A: Ruger. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: A Ruger Mini 14 rifle, which was our 19 issue ERT rifle. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: We took a defensive position at the 22 back of our cruisers, and we're making demands of the 23 person that exited the car and was in the phone booth, 24 whose back was to us at this point. 25 Q: All right. When you say you were


1 taking -- you "took a defensive position," can you tell 2 me what that meant? 3 A: We proceeded from the front -- from 4 our seated positions in the cruisers, we moved to the 5 back of our cars, crouched down, and in a position of -- 6 of cover and concealment in case any hostile act by the 7 persons that were in the vehicle. 8 Q: Okay. And did you, at this time, 9 know how many people -- how many people there were in the 10 vehicle? 11 A: Visible in the -- in the vehicle 12 there was the person that exited and was in the phone 13 booth, and one other person was visible at that time. 14 Q: Did you -- were you able to identify 15 the gender of these people? 16 A: At some point in time I did learn 17 that they were females. But at this particular moment I 18 -- I don't know if I had made that distinction yet. 19 Q: All right. And then was it from your 20 defensive positions that you started making demands of 21 the woman -- or of the person who was at the phone booth? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what demands did you make? 24 A: When we came to a stop, generally one 25 officer would take the lead role in -- in making


1 communication and contact with the person that we were 2 trying to get communication with, and get control of the 3 situation with. 4 I'm not sure which officer it was, but 5 there was one officer that took the forefront and began 6 challenging that person and -- and ordered them to show 7 their hands for a -- for a safety perspective. 8 Q: All right. And at what positions 9 were you holding your Ruger rifles at this time? 10 A: It was shouldered and pointed in the 11 direction of the person in the phone booth. 12 Q: All right. What -- in the meantime, 13 what was the person in the phone booth doing while these 14 demands were being made? 15 A: Their back was to us and her hands 16 were in front of her. 17 Q: Okay. What happened next? 18 A: The officer that was trying to get 19 communication with that person wasn't successful. The 20 person wasn't complying with any of his directions to 21 stop what she was doing, show us her hands first to -- 22 for safety standpoint or follow any other directions that 23 were given to her. 24 Q: And what happened next? 25 A: I did verb -- I did interject some


1 verbal interaction as well. 2 Q: What -- 3 A: He wasn't making any headway and I 4 thought that I might be able to make some demands as well 5 and -- and get control. I made some but I was -- that 6 was to no avail as well. 7 Q: What did you say? 8 A: Similar to what he had said, to see 9 her hands and for her to exit the phone booth. 10 Q: Did you tell her why or did any of 11 the police officers tell her why you wanted to see her 12 hands? 13 A: No. 14 Q: At the time that you are making your 15 demands do you still have your Ruger -- what position is 16 your Ruger rifle? 17 A: It's still shouldered and pointing in 18 the direction of the phone booth. 19 Q: And how far away are you from her at 20 this point? 21 A: Forty (40) feet -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- approximately. 24 Q: And what was the -- the woman doing 25 as -- as these -- as you now are interacting with her?


1 A: She was placing a phone call. 2 Q: Okay. Did -- did she respond to you 3 at all or tell you why she was making a phone call? 4 A: She did exit the phone booth 5 maintaining the receiver in her hand and yelled at us 6 that she was making a phone call. 7 Q: Did she say for what purpose or to 8 whom? 9 A: At this point I don't believe so. 10 Q: All right. And what happened next? 11 A: At this point we weren't able to get 12 any compliance from her to de-escalate or to -- to safely 13 de-escalate and evaluate the situation. She wasn't 14 cooperating with our demands that we felt for our safety 15 at that point. And it seemed to be in a bit of a 16 stalemate. 17 At that point I put down my Ruger rifle, I 18 moved from my position of cover and concealment I had 19 with the back of the car and made an arching movement 20 towards the phone booth. In the meantime I had drawn my 21 -- my pistol. 22 Q: And where was it pointed? 23 A: At the phone booth. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I proceeded towards the phone booth


1 with my pistol drawn and got to the proximity of the 2 phone booth and then again tried to get the person in the 3 phone booth to comply with our demands of -- for our 4 safety. 5 Q: Okay. Again what were the demands? 6 A: Show her hands, to exit the phone 7 booth, and show her hands in a -- in a safe manner. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: She continued to not comply with 10 those demands and at a point I reached into the phone 11 booth, grabbed a hold of her by her clothing, her jacket, 12 and removed her from the phone booth. 13 Q: All right. And what about the -- the 14 phone that was in her hand? 15 A: I believe the phone just fell to the 16 -- the end of the cord. 17 Q: All right. What was her reaction as 18 you grabbed her clothing? 19 A: She immediately turned around and 20 began to flail and -- and resist my efforts and -- and 21 resist my -- my trying to get control of her. I only had 22 one (1) hand on her, so I immediately holstered my pistol 23 to free up my second hand and with my two (2) hands I 24 attempted to get control of her. 25 Q: All right. And how did you do that?


1 A: I was just basically holding onto her 2 clothing and trying to control her -- her movements. 3 Q: Where were you holding her? 4 A: By the upper arms. 5 Q: All right. What happened next? 6 A: I wasn't able to get control of her. 7 She continued to thrash and -- and flail her arms and 8 resist and I wasn't able to get control of her. 9 Constable Lorch then came to where I was and with the two 10 (2) of us we were able to place the woman on the ground. 11 Q: All right. And when you say "place 12 her on the ground," can you be a little more specific 13 about that movement and what part of the ground con -- 14 she made contact with? 15 A: I don't remember the specifics how. 16 It was -- it was a bit of a movement and -- and wrestling 17 match for lack of a better word. I got control of her 18 and she was put to the ground face down. 19 Q: All right. And what happened next? 20 A: She was handcuffed in that position. 21 Q: With her hands behind her back? 22 A: Behind her back. 23 Q: All right. And in the meantime was 24 she saying anything to you while this wrestling was going 25 on?


1 A: I believe so. I don't recall the 2 exact nature of the conversation. 3 Q: All right. And what happened next? 4 A: She was cursory searched, and she was 5 searched at that point to locate any -- any weapons she 6 might have or any means she might have to effect an 7 escape from the handcuffs or from us. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Nothing was found on her possession. 10 Q: All right. And was there any -- was 11 she holding any -- any -- anything, any accessory? 12 A: Not that I recall. 13 Q: All right. And after you determined 14 there were no weapons on her, what did you do? 15 A: She was arrested by Constable Lorch. 16 Q: For what charge? 17 A: For failing to stop for police. 18 Q: All right. Was she told that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: She was then removed from -- from 22 that position and taken to Dougan and myself's police car 23 and placed in the back of the police car. 24 Q: Did anything else occur? 25 A: In regards to her, no. Not at this


1 point. 2 Q: Was anything else said to her at this 3 point? 4 A: Not that I recall. 5 Q: All right. And in the meantime, you 6 indicated there was a second individual in the car. Did 7 you determine what her gender was? 8 A: At this point, I don't know if it was 9 determined to be another female. I don't know if that -- 10 at this specific point that I knew that it was a female. 11 Q: All right. Did -- what were her 12 actions, if you can tell us, while this arrest was going 13 on? 14 A: I don't note any -- any reaction at 15 all from her. 16 Q: To your knowledge, did she exit the 17 vehicle during the course of the arrest? 18 A: She did not. 19 Q: All right. At what point in time did 20 you determine that the person who you apprehended was a 21 female, during the course of the events you've just told 22 us? 23 A: I believe that when she turned her 24 back or when she turned from the phone booth and faced 25 us, and yelled at us, and when she remained having the


1 phone receiver in her hand, when she turned out -- out of 2 the phone booth. 3 Q: All right. So prior to you making 4 physical contact with her? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And about how long did this event 10 take place, to transpire, from the point of entry into 11 the parking lot to the arrest? 12 A: I would say possibly ten (10) 13 minutes, if less. 14 Q: And did you determine her approximate 15 age at this time? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Do you recall anything 18 else about the exchange of words between yourself and/or 19 Officer Lorch and the -- and this woman? 20 A: I don't recall anything at this 21 point. 22 Q: Did you find out what her identity 23 was? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And who was this?


1 A: Marcia Simon. 2 Q: And when did you find out her 3 identity? 4 A: I'm not sure what -- when or how that 5 was determined, if it was verbally or by her driver's 6 licence. 7 Q: All right. But was this at the point 8 in time -- did you know her name by the time you got her 9 to your car? 10 A: It may have been when she was in the 11 back of the car. 12 Q: Okay. And what did you do at that 13 point, once you have her in the car and she was placed 14 under arrest? 15 A: I -- I left that position and I went 16 up and approached the passenger in the car. 17 Q: All right. So is the passenger in 18 the car that Ms. Simon was driving? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what did you determine? 21 A: That it was an elderly female. 22 Q: All right. Did you conduct -- did 23 you say anything to her? 24 A: I spoke to her. 25 Q: What did you say?


1 A: I explained to her the circumstances 2 and the situation and what had just transpired. 3 Q: Can you relay to us what you told 4 her? 5 A: Again, I don't remember verbatim what 6 I said, but I explained the situation that -- that her 7 daughter was arrested, why she's arrested and -- and that 8 -- and the circumstances around that. 9 Q: Now, as you approached the parking 10 lot in pursuit of Marcia Simon's car, did you have any 11 concerns about -- about whether or not they might have 12 weapons? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what was the basis of that 15 concern? 16 A: My -- my concern was that -- that 17 they did have weapons, that they were armed, and I based 18 that on my observations from them leaving the -- directly 19 leaving the main entrance to the Army Camp. 20 And I know that the Army Camp and the 21 Provincial Park are basically one and the same; that 22 vehicles were travelling back and forth between both 23 areas, through the access from the Army Camp. 24 I did hear the communications over the 25 radio that the shots had been fired down at the beach


1 area. I didn't know the circumstances around the 2 shooting, if it was police had been shot or police were 3 in fact the shooters. 4 I didn't know who the -- who the threat 5 came from. So I knew that they had access and then this 6 vehicle left the Army Camp area. Again it could have 7 access to the beach. 8 He left and got engaged in a pursuit with 9 the police and failed to stop for the police. I 10 continued on and came to a stop. Once we got stopped the 11 person that was driving the car that was at the phone 12 booth wouldn't comply with any of our directions to show 13 her hands and try and make the situation safe and -- and 14 de-escalate and secure the -- the area so we could 15 determine what was going on or what their -- what if any 16 involvement they had in the shooting. 17 To my knowledge, it was -- there was a 18 shooting and a vehicle was fleeing the scene from that 19 shooting. And simply put the vehicle was fleeing the 20 scene of the shooting and I didn't know what their 21 involvement could have been at all at that point in time. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: And that's what we were trying to 24 determine. 25 Q: All right. And did you then search


1 the elderly woman in the car? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: All right. Did you search the car? 4 A: I believe the car was searched. 5 Q: Did you search it? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: All right. Did you receive any 8 report as to whether or not any weapons were found either 9 on the elderly passenger or in the car? 10 A: I don't believe there were any found. 11 Q: All right. How would you -- well, 12 let me put it this way, how would you describe the level, 13 the -- the emotional atmosphere at the parking lot during 14 the course of this -- this encounter with Marcia Simon? 15 A: I believe on both sides I think the 16 stress level was very high. 17 Q: And how would you characterize the 18 demeanour of Marcia Simon during this encounter? 19 A: I would say verbally confrontational. 20 Q: All right. And how would you 21 characterize your own demeanour during this time? 22 A: My stress level was very high. I was 23 trying to gain some communication and -- and control the 24 situation and my voice would be raised. I would -- and 25 you -- in that situation, generally you would project


1 your voice in a strong and authoritative manner to -- to 2 get control of the situation. 3 Q: And that's what you did here? 4 A: Yes, all officers did. 5 Q: All the officers did? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And there four (4) officers at this 8 time? 9 A: Four (4) of us, yes. 10 Q: Do you recall what the lighting 11 conditions were at the parking lot? 12 Were you able to see her clearly? 13 A: Yes. I wouldn't say the lighting was 14 -- was bright but it was sufficient. 15 Q: All right. So there was artificial 16 light? 17 A: There was some artificial light and I 18 believe the headlights of our cruiser lit up the -- the 19 phone booth. 20 Q: At some point then did you determine 21 that your concern that there were weapons present in the 22 vehicle or on those persons was -- was unfounded? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And was it by the time 25 you made the arrest or after it?


1 A: After. 2 Q: Was it by the time that you placed 3 Ms. Simon in your car? 4 A: After that. 5 Q: When -- when after? 6 A: The search of the vehicle was 7 following Ms. Simon being placed in the back of the 8 cruiser. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: So there was no determination that 11 there wasn't any weapons in the vehicle until after she'd 12 been arrested and secured in a police cruiser. 13 Q: All right. Do you recall -- you 14 indicated you couldn't recall her wear -- having any 15 accessories, but do you recall what she was wearing on 16 her body? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: Do you recall whether or not she had 19 glasses? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Do you recall whether or not she was 22 wearing any overcoat or jacket or something of that 23 nature? 24 A: I -- I don't recall. 25 Q: All right.


1 A: I believe she had a jacket on but I 2 don't remember any specifics of -- of it. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Do you recall whether or not anyone 7 read her her rights? 8 A: Yes, they were read to her. 9 Q: Who did that? 10 A: Constable Lorch. 11 Q: Was that in your presence? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: When, relative to the arrest? 14 A: At the time of the arrest. The 15 Charter of Rights was after arrest in the back of the 16 cruiser. 17 Q: Before you exited or before the car 18 exited? Or do -- 19 A: I'm sorry, can you...? 20 Q: Before the car exited the parking lot 21 with Ms. Simon or while you were still there? 22 A: Oh, while we were in the parking lot. 23 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether or 24 not you -- you knew by this time that the elderly person 25 was her mother?


1 A: It was discovered. I don't know what 2 point in time it was. 3 Q: Okay. Because you said daughter, so 4 -- all right. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you discover her name? 7 A: I don't recall what her name is. 8 Q: All right, Did you make a note of 9 this event in your notes? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And perhaps you could look at Exhibit 12 P-1252. It's at Tab 10. It's Inquiry Document 2003550. 13 Could you kindly locate the entry and read it into the 14 records for us please? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Again I'll just refer to my police 19 notebook because -- 20 Q: Certainly. 21 A: -- it's larger. And which point do 22 you want to begin? 23 Q: Well, at the outset of the recording 24 of the pursuit. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: All right. I'll -- I'll begin at: 4 "We were advised to move from our 5 position which was Checkpoint 'D' to 6 proceed to 21 Highway at Army Camp 7 Road. Then when at that -- when at 8 this point noted an auto leave the Army 9 Camp, proceed through stop sign at 21 10 Highway northbound on 21 followed by 11 OPP cruiser emergency lights on. 12 Followed and assisted with an assisted 13 with -- an assisted unit. Vehicle 14 followed to a restaurant in Northville. 15 Driver exited and stopped at the phone 16 --" 17 Q: I'm sorry is that Northville? 18 A: Northville. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: "Driver exited and stopped at 21 payphone and placed a phone call. Two 22 (2) female -- two (2) females in the 23 auto [and I have noted the licence 24 plate as 935 HHT Ontario]. It was a 25 blue Chevy.


1 The driver refused all police orders to 2 surrender and place her hands in a safe 3 position. The driver resisted arrest 4 and was subdued. [And the driver's 5 information being Marcia Simon.] 6 At 23:15 hours arrest by Constable 7 Lorch, London ERT. And 23:25 Charter 8 [again by Constable Lorch]." 9 Q: Now for the record you've read from 10 pages 74 to 75 of your notes and there was some 11 additional information under Marcia Simon that included 12 her residence and date of birth. 13 And I note that the time of the arrest 14 according to your note was 23:15 and the time of the 15 reading of the Charter was 22:25. And I just wanted to 16 ask you, when did you record those times? Do you recall? 17 Was it on the spot or later? 18 A: Shortly after -- later. 19 Q: All right. Okay. And did you make 20 any alterations to these notes after creating them? 21 A: No, I have not. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, we heard some 23 evidence from -- from Marcia Simon at this Inquiry and 24 I'm referring specifically to her testimony of September 25 23rd, 2004.


1 And she testified, with respect to this 2 incident in particular, and she made the following 3 comments. First of all it was her evidence that she 4 stopped at the stop sign at Highway 21 and Army Camp 5 Drive before turning left to Northville. 6 Do you agree with that? 7 A: No, I do not. 8 Q: She also indicated that one of the 9 cruisers pulled up beside her and then pulled back during 10 the course of the pursuit. 11 Do you agree with that? 12 A: I don't recall that happening. 13 Q: She indicated that once at the 14 Northville Plaza, the restaurant, the police hid behind 15 the gas pumps and had their guns levelled and kept 16 advancing. 17 Do you agree with that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: What part do you, or parts do you not 20 agree with? 21 A: We didn't take a position of cover 22 behind the gas pumps at the state -- at the restaurant. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: We were behind our cruiser. Our 25 weapons were drawn, and I was the only officer that


1 approached her while she was in the phone booth. 2 Q: All right. She testified that one of 3 the shotguns -- that the shotguns were levelled at her 4 when she was at the pay phone booth. 5 A: The weapons were mini-ruger rifle and 6 they were shoulder and pointed in the direction of the 7 phone booth. 8 Q: She testified that the phone was 9 violently taken out of her hand and her mother was 10 yelling, warning about the fact that Marcia Simon had had 11 a bone graft. 12 Do you agree -- do you recall anything 13 like that? 14 A: She was removed from the phone booth 15 by myself by hold of her jacket. The -- the phone wasn't 16 -- may have fallen from her hand at that point and I 17 don't recall her mother interjecting anything. 18 Q: All right. She then testified that 19 she was then -- that she then met the hood of her car and 20 then the ground. 21 A: During the struggle, we may have made 22 contact with her car, but she was -- was placed on the 23 ground. 24 Q: All right. And she also said the 25 following -- and I am going to read directly from the


1 transcript at this point. It's page 172 of the testimony 2 of Marcia Simon, given in-chief on September 23rd, 2004. 3 I'm going to quote exactly from the transcript here. 4 "And at that point..." 5 "Q: At that point, did you see what, 6 if anything was going on with your 7 mother." 8 And this is after you have arrested -- 9 after you have placed handcuffs on her and detained -- in 10 the parking lot. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: "A: After I was in an upright 13 position, I was aware of her right down 14 on the ground, trying to pray. She had 15 her medicines with her and they 16 wouldn't allow her to use them and they 17 had shotguns levelled right at her 18 head, yelling at her to put her hands 19 in the air and she was pleading that 20 she couldn't, because she had 21 arthritis. 22 And I thought they were going to blow 23 her away and I pleaded with them. I 24 said, Leave her alone, she's just -- 25 she's been just riding with me, she


1 didn't do anything wrong. 2 I asked them if that's how they were 3 trained to treat old, grey-haired 4 widows and they seemed to calm down a 5 little. They couldn't answer that 6 question." 7 Now, do you recall anything like that 8 occurring? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Is any -- do you agree with any part 11 of that statement? 12 A: No, I do not. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, you've test -- indicated that 17 you characterized a high level of tension during the 18 course of this event and that your voices were raise -- 19 were direct and authoritative? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Were they also raised? 22 A: Yes, they would be. 23 Q: They were loud? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And you were issuing commands


1 to her? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: But you don't recall specifically 4 what commands you were relaying to her? 5 A: To show her hands, step from the 6 phone booth. 7 Q: All right. I wonder if we might, at 8 this time, play the tape of the 911 call of Marcia Simon, 9 Exhibit P-48, and I'm going to provide you with a copy of 10 the transcript of that call. 11 Just for your information, this is of the 12 telephone call that she was in the process of making at 13 the telephone view -- booth at Northville, when you 14 arrived. 15 All right. And perhaps I could just hand 16 up the... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: All right, perhaps we can start the 21 transmission now. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 24 25 TAPE-RECORDED MESSAGE 911 CALL


1 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 2 CALLER: Send an ambulance down to Stoney Point, we 3 got two guys down, two guys shot. 4 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, okay 5 sir. 6 AMBULANCE: Ambulance. 7 OPERATOR: Hello are you there. 8 AMBULANCE: I'm here ma'am. 9 OPERATOR: No that's me, it's Terry. 10 AMBULANCE: Who's Terry. 11 OPERATOR: From the police. 12 AMBULANCE: Sorry, okay. 13 OPERATOR: I just got some guy that said they had two 14 people shot down at Stoney Point, and they 15 wanted an ambulance. 16 AMBULANCE: Stoney or Ipperwash there. 17 OPERATOR: All he said was Stoney Point. Did you, 18 did you guys already get a call on that. 19 AMBULANCE: Yea, we've got two ambulances on 20 (inaudible) down there. 21 OPERATOR: You do. 22 AMBULANCE: Hang on there Terry. 23 OPERATOR: Okay. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED)


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: So we're on page 2 now, on page 2 at 3 the bottom. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 6 7 AMBULANCE: Terry... 8 OPERATOR: Hi... 9 AMBULANCE: They're calling in from 9780 Army Camp 10 Road, right. 11 OPERATOR: Yep, that's what I've here too, he must 12 have hung up. 13 AMBULANCE: Okay, I've got a Sergeant on the line here 14 anyway. 15 OPERATOR: Are they needed. 16 AMBULANCE: We've got two ambulances right there now. 17 OPERATOR: Are they Natives, Jeff, or are they Police 18 Officers. 19 AMBULANCE: Oh I don't know. I've got to go. 20 OPERATOR: Okay, okay, bye now. 21 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 22 CALLER: (in the background) don't make a move 23 lady. 24 I'm just talking on the phone, get the gun 25 out of here.


1 OPERATOR: Do you need the police, fire or ambulance. 2 CALLER: Ambulance. 3 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, 4 okay. 5 OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address there. 6 (in the background) get on the ground. 7 What's your address. 8 Okay this is the operator you're talking 9 to now. 10 OPERATOR: What is the address there, do you know. 11 OPERATOR(1): I don't know, I've only got a phone number 12 OPERATOR: Alright what's the phone number. 13 OPERATOR(1): It's 243-8953. 14 AMBULANCE: There's ambulance there now, and another 15 ones been called. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: I'm pausing it at that point because 21 the rest of it you wouldn't have been privy to. So page 22 -- I wonder, page 3, we're at the top where it references 23 caller and it says: 24 "IN THE BACKGROUND: Don't make a move, 25 lady."


1 And then the response is: 2 "I'm just talking on the phone, get the 3 gun out of here." 4 Now, do you recall that passage or would 5 you like me to replay that for you? 6 A: No, I do recall hearing that. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I was having difficulty following it, 9 but -- 10 Q: No, I appreciate it's not perfect. 11 Do you -- did you recognize the voice in the background: 12 "Don't make a move?" 13 A: I believe -- I believe that was 14 Constable Lorch. 15 Q: All right. And then the response: 16 "I'm just talking on the phone, get the 17 gun out of here." 18 Did you recognize that? 19 A: I -- I wouldn't say I recognized the 20 voice, but I believe that to be Marcia Simon's. 21 Q: And then a little bit further along 22 this page beside: 23 "OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address 24 there? 25 And then:


1 "IN THE BACKGROUND: Get on the 2 ground." 3 Do you recall hearing that? 4 A: I didn't hear that on the tape. 5 Q: And did you -- can you recognize the 6 voice? 7 A: I -- I'd have to hear it again. 8 Q: All right. All right. Would that 9 assist you to hear it again? I'm happy to do it, why 10 don't we do that. 11 A: Please. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 14 15 OPERATOR: Do you need the police, fire or ambulance. 16 CALLER: Ambulance. 17 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, 18 okay. 19 OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address there. 20 (in the background) get on the ground. 21 What's your address. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:


1 Q: That was it. Did that assist? 2 A: I still believe that's Constable 3 Lorch. 4 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. Now, you've indicated 9 that after you placed Ms. Simon in the -- in your 10 cruiser, I believe you said it was in your cruiser? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You then went over to the other -- to 13 the car and you spoke with the elderly passenger? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what did you do after that coming 16 -- communication? 17 A: Spoke with her, and following that 18 she was asked to step from the car. 19 Q: And did she? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Was -- how would you describe her 22 behaviour? 23 A: She was cooperative and pleasant. 24 Q: All right. And what did you ask her 25 to do thereafter?


1 A: We had her walk to the back of the 2 police cruiser, had her have a seat in the back. 3 Q: And was that with her -- with Ms. 4 Simon? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you place her 7 under arrest? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Why not? 10 A: She didn't commit an offence. Ms. 11 Simon was the operator of the -- of the vehicle and it 12 failed to stop for police. 13 Q: All right. And what did you do 14 thereafter? 15 A: I believe there was some radio 16 communication between our cars at the restaurant for some 17 direction as to what they -- we had the prisoner and -- 18 and what direction they wanted done with her. 19 Q: All right. And I wonder if we then - 20 - at this time I'd like to play one further 21 communication, and it's an excerpt from the Chatham 22 Communication Centre, log tape number 0146, track 12, 23 this 12 of 20, and it's recorded as 23:33 hundred hours. 24 And I do have the transcript which I'd 25 like to hand up please.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Just indicate that at the very top of 4 this page it does read 23:14 because it was part of the 5 prior transcript. But the time of this call appears to 6 be 23:33. And perhaps we could play that at this time 7 please. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 10 11 23:33 hrs. 12 13 Delta 2411: 2411 to TOC site. 2411 to Lima 2. 14 Lima 2: Go ahead, 2411. 15 Delta 2411: 10-4. We have 10-92 female. Do you have 16 a wagon there for transport to Forest? 17 Lima 2: You're at Alpha position? 18 Delta 2411: Negative. We were involved in a pursuit. 19 Vehicle on 21 Highway. Apprehended the 20 driver. We're going to bring her back. 21 Lima 2: 10-4. Don't bring her back here. I would 22 suggest she go to Forest. 23 Delta 2411: 10-4. We also have an elderly passenger 24 female. Do you want her in Forest as 25 well?


1 Lima 2: Is she . is she in custody? 2 Delta 2411: Negative. 3 Lima 2: Then she can go wherever she wants to if 4 she's not in custody. 5 Delta 2411: 10-4. I'll drop her back at CFB 6 Ipperwash. 7 Lima 2: Yeah. Just stand by on that one. Lima 1, 8 Lima 2. Lima 1, Lima 2. Lima 1, Lima 2. 9 Lima 2: Unit with the female under arrest. 10 Delta 2411: 2411. 11 Lima 2: 2411. Do you have to drive right past 12 that location? 13 Delta 2411: 10-4. We do. We're between Grand Bend 14 and the base. 15 Lima 2: 10-4. Delta, Lima 2. 16 Delta 2411: Lima 2, Delta. 17 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2. What's the situation at 18 that location? 19 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... 10-92 with the 20 ambulance. We have two uniforms 21 accompanying the ambulance. We have 6 22 members and myself at this location. 23 Lima 2: 10-4. Is there anything going on there? 24 Delta 2411: No, it's quiet now. They're taking the 25 10-92 to Strathroy Hospital.


1 Lima 2: Lima 1, Lima 2. 2 CP: Lima 1, Lima 2. Go ahead, Lima 1. 3 Lima 2: Lima 1, Lima 2. 2411 has one female in 4 custody from that vehicle they were 5 pursuing and they have one elderly female 6 not in custody. Where would you want her 7 dropped off or taken to? 8 CP: Well, if they're going to arrest them, 9 send a prisoner van up and bring them down 10 to Forest Detachment for now. 11 Lima 2: 10-4. They're inquiring. It's an elderly 12 female. Can she be dropped off at the 13 Army Camp or bring her in? 14 CP: Just a . just stand by one. Stand by one. 15 I'll check with the Detective Sergeant. 16 CP: Lima 2 from Lima 1. If the . the young 17 female, was she the driver, then? 18 Lima 2: 10-4. ...inaudible ... 19 CP: 10-4. Okay. Arrest the driver and make 20 arrangements for the elderly one. We'll 21 get her identified and then run her back 22 to the Army Base there. 23 Lima 2: 10-4. 2411, did you copy? 24 Delta 2411: Yeah. In reference to the prisoner van if 25 it's still in the area, we can relay or


1 transfer our prisoner to the van if it's 2 going to Forest. 3 Lima 2: 10-4. 4 Delta 2411: 10-4. Attending your location. 5 6 Delta 2411: Lima 2, 2411. 7 Lima 2: Go ahead, 2411. Lima 2. 8 Delta 2411: 10-4. Is it possible to make a meet with 9 the prisoner van? 10 Lima 2: Prisoner van, Lima 2. 11 Prisoner Van: Go ahead. 12 Lima 2: What's your locale right now? 13 Prisoner Van: At the TOC. 14 Lima 2: 10-4. Can you make a rondo with 2411? 15 They have a female prisoner to go to 16 Forest. 17 Prisoner Van: 10-4. Where would they like me to meet 18 them? 19 Lima 2: Where would you like to meet 2411? 20 They're at the TOC. 21 Delta 2411: We're in Ravenswood now. 22 Prisoner Van: 10-4. Leaving the TOC en route to 23 Ravenswood now. 24 Lima 2: Is that Okay? Is everybody squared away 25 there?


1 Unknown: 10-4. 2 3 End of conversation 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. That concludes 8 that. I'd like to make this transcript the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1255, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1255: Transcript of Region 01, 12 Steve Lorch - Alpha - Lima 2 13 - Prisoner Van, September 06, 14 1995, 23:33 hrs, Chatham 15 Communications Centre, Logger 16 Tape number 0146, Track 12 , 17 Disc 12 of 20 18 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And just for the 20 record, the tape transmission that we just heard would be 21 part of then 1253, I believe? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 23 think we assigned a number to the -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: To the -- to the 25 original tape?


1 THE REGISTRAR: I thought we did. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I thought we did -- 3 well, I intended to. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Well let's 8 assign both the first transmission and the second 9 transmission the -- the next exhibit please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1256. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1256: Reserved. 13 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And we're going to add 15 a third transmission to that, Mr. Registrar, in a little 16 bit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. 24 Excuse me. Sorry. I'm broadcasting all over the world 25 here. The -- just noted that this transcript was made by


1 our office and there may -- may not be a perfect 2 transcript. 3 And, Officer Gransden, I wonder if you 4 might assist us with the identities of some of the 5 speakers, if you can. 6 The first, Delta 2411, or at least 2411, 7 did you recognize that voice? 8 A: Some of the voices -- I have to say 9 some of the voices -- the only one I really recognize was 10 Ron Bell. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And other than that I -- and I may 13 have heard myself, but that's about -- and I'm not even 14 sure of myself, but -- 15 Q: And I noted on page 2 at the top 16 we've got: 17 "(inaudible) 10-92 with the ambulance. 18 We have two (2) uniforms." 19 And it's identified as Delta 2411, which 20 would be Ron Bell, but I think -- can we agree that that 21 would not have been Delta 2411, he was speaking with 22 someone back at the Army Camp and 21 location? 23 A: That's what I take in that, that 24 they're with an ambulance, which never attended the 25 Northville location at all. And I -- I take from this


1 that the ambulance was at the -- the 21 Highway and the 2 Army Camp Road, had picked up -- the 10-92 would be a 3 prisoner, and was being transferred to Strathroy 4 Hospital, it goes on to say. 5 And the two (2) uniforms or -- and two (2) 6 uniformed officers were going to follow the ambulance to 7 the Strathroy Hospital. 8 Q: All right. So for the record, 9 Commissioner, we will undertake to correct the -- the 10 identities, especially on page 2 of the Delta 2411, which 11 was not 2411 but another officer at the Army Camp Road 12 and 21 location. So we will do that on further research. 13 Now did you, in fact, meet the prisoner 14 van to transfer Marcia Simon? 15 A: Yes, we did. 16 Q: All right. And do you recall when 17 that occurred, approximately? 18 A: I don't have any notation of the 19 time. 20 Q: And what did you do, if anything, 21 with the elderly passenger? 22 A: Myself and Constable Dougan drove her 23 home, to her home in Kettle Point. 24 Q: All right. So you didn't take her 25 back to the Forest Detachment or anywhere, you took her


1 straight to the Army Camp. 2 A: No. She requested to be taken home, 3 and so we gave her a ride right to Kettle Point. 4 Q: To Kettle Point. Excuse me. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes. And you took her to her home 7 there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. Now just -- I note that 10 there is a time differential with the telephone logs and 11 your book. If you look at your 23:15 and 23:25 entries 12 for September 6th. That's on page 75 of Exhibit P-1252. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it's noted that the arrest is at 15 23:15 and the Charter Rights read at 23:25. And I just 16 note that it would appear, according to P-1254, which is 17 the first transmission -- sorry, the second transmission, 18 excuse me, P-1255, that by 23:33 you have Ms. Simon in 19 your car already. 20 A: I'm sorry, where -- 21 Q: The second transmission at 23:33. 22 A: Which transcript are we -- are you 23 working with? 24 Q: Certainly. The Chatham Communication 25 Centre log tape Number 0146, it's Exhibit P-1255, and


1 you'll see at the top left corner it says 23:33. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And by this time it would appear that 4 you had Ms. Simon in your vehicle, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And had the arrest taken place by 7 this time, or did it occur after, if you can recall, in 8 relation to the radio communication? 9 A: The times that are in my notebook 10 were taken from my wristwatch, which may not be 11 synchronized with the time that's -- the actual time of 12 the tape from the Chatham Communication Centre. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: That might -- that may be the reason 15 for the discrepancy. 16 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. All 17 right. Now once you then transferred Ms. Simon to the 18 prisoner van and then took Melva George to Kettle Point 19 to her home, what did you do next? 20 A: We were assigned to a -- another 21 checkpoint. 22 Q: And what checkpoint was that? 23 A: Checkpoint Number 1. 24 Q: Can you identify where Checkpoint 25 Number 1 was? Can you --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- describe the location? 3 A: Checkpoint Number 1 -- I believe what 4 happened was that, previous to the shooting incident, 5 checkpoints were all lettered alphabetically. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And I think post shooting, I think to 8 get away from confusion from the -- continuing on with 9 the letters, I think they -- they switched to a number 10 process. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: So we were assigned Checkpoint Number 13 1, and it was set up at the 21 Highway at the Ipperwash 14 Road. 15 Q: All right. And at what time were you 16 assigned to that checkpoint? 17 A: 00:09, which would be 12:09 a.m. 18 Q: Okay. Of September 7th now? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right. And later on that morning, do 21 you recall receiving an inquiry with respect to the 22 whereabouts of the elderly female passenger, Melva 23 George, as to her whereabouts? 24 A: No, I don't. I don't recall that. 25 Q: All right. I'd like then to play one


1 last transmission. This is dated September 7, 1995 at 2 4:57 a.m., from the Chatham Communication Centre, logger 3 tape number 0147, track 12, disk 12 of 20. 4 And I do have the transcripts. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. Just before we play that, 9 Constable, is Ipperwash road and 21, is that also known 10 as Ravenswood? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I believe it is. I believe it is. 15 Q: All right. I wonder if we might now 16 play the radio transmission, please. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 19 20 [Lima 1 = Lima 1] 21 [MG = Constable Mark Gransden] 22 23 Lima 1: Gransden, go. 24 MG: Are you inquiring about that female? 25 Lima 1: 10-4. One was brought in to here, and


1 then there was another female with her. 2 We want to know what happened. 3 MG: 10-4. We dropped her off at midnight at 4 her residence at Kettle Point. 5 Lima 1: Do you have her name? 6 MG: 10-4. ... inaudible ... Melva George. 7 Lima 1: That's 10-4. 8 9 End of conversation 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: And I apologize for the quality of 15 that transmission. Are you able to identify the person 16 signified here as "MG" in the transcript? 17 A: It's -- I believe that's supposed to 18 be myself, but I can't even -- it's so garbled, or 19 staticy, I can't really even -- 20 Q: I apologize for that. Do you -- does 21 this refresh your memory at all, though, as to whether or 22 not you did receive an enquiry later that morning? 23 A: No, it's not. 24 Q: Okay. All right, then. I'd like, 25 nonetheless, to make this the next exhibit, please.


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1257, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1257: Transcript of Region 02, Mark 4 Gransden - Lima 1 , September 5 07, 1995, 04:57 hrs, Chatham 6 Communications Centre, Logger 7 Tape number 0147, Track 12, 8 Disc 12 of 20. 9 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And that radio 11 transmission I would like noted to be part of Exhibit P- 12 1256 in terms of the audiotape version. Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. Now, did anything else of 16 significance transpire over the -- the course or the 17 balance of your night shift duty, September the 7th? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes, there was one (1) other event. 22 Q: Can you tell us about that, please? 23 A: Yes. At 11:00 a.m. that day, on the 24 7th, through our checkpoint at 21 highway and the 25 Ipperwash Road, a large contingent of Native protesters,


1 or supporters, came to Kettle Point, passed through our 2 inter -- or our checkpoint and proceeded down to the Army 3 Camp. 4 Q: Now, were you given any forewarning 5 that this number of people were going to be approaching 6 your checkpoint position? 7 A: Before their arrival at our location, 8 from where we were we could see them congregating at the 9 -- at the curve at Kettle Point. And we did get radio 10 communication indicating that they were in -- intending 11 on marching down to the Army Camp. 12 Q: Were you provided with any direction 13 or order as to whether or not you should attempt to stop 14 that march? 15 A: Our direction was to caution them 16 about going down there, for their safety, but we weren't 17 to impede them if they wanted to proceed on. 18 Q: All right. And did you do that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did the people, nonetheless, continue 21 through? 22 A: Yes, they did. 23 Q: All right. And when were you off 24 duty that day? 25 A: At 2:00 p.m.


1 Q: And did anything else of significance 2 then occur prior to 2:00 p.m.? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now, I'm looking at your -- your 5 notes, the last entry, September the 8th, 1995. This is 6 part of P-1252, it's the last page and it's noted that 7 there is debrief by psychologist. I can't read the rest 8 of that. 9 But in any event, can you tell us about 10 that? 11 A: I don't know if the -- the proper 12 terminology would be a debrief, but it was a -- a group 13 meeting with members of 1 district ERT and the OPP 14 psychologist, Dr. Hoath. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And it was a -- I'll call it a 17 debrief or a session for critical incident stress. 18 Q: So this was a debriefing in the 19 nature of a psychological debriefing? 20 A: Sorry, can you -- 21 Q: Is this a psychological debriefing, 22 or a police debriefing? 23 A: It was in relation to the officers 24 being involved in a critical incident, and the stress 25 level.


1 Q: Stress levels, all right. Did you 2 participate in any formal police debriefing with res -- 3 or any other form of debriefing with regards to the 4 events, the policing events of September 4th through 7th? 5 A: No, I have not. 6 Q: All right. Did you have any further 7 involvement at all with the Ipperwash matter? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Have you ever been interviewed by 10 anyone from the Special Investigation Unit? 11 A: No, I never have. 12 Q: Thank you, Officer, those are my 13 questions. I've concluded my examination-in-chief, 14 Commissioner. And perhaps now it would be appropriate to 15 canvass the parties for cross-examination, please? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we have 17 our usual of canvassing of parties and time estimates. 18 Thank you. 19 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 21 fifteen (15) minutes or less. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fifteen (15) minutes or 23 less. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 25 McAleer...?


1 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Two (2) to three 2 (3) minutes. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Two (2) to three (3) 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 6 Alexander...? 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 8 I'll be switching with Mr. Rosenthal for this Witness and 9 I'll reserve ten (10) to fifteen (15) minutes, although 10 I'll probably be less. 11 Mr. Rosenthal...? 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour to an hour 13 and a half, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Half an hour maximum. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Half an hour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 George...? 19 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I'll reserve ten 20 (10) minutes. I'll likely have no questions. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Ten (10) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: Half an hour to forty- 24 five (45) minutes. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thirty (30) to forty-


1 five (45) minutes. And I'm sorry, I missed -- I missed - 2 - Mr. Rosenthal was one (1) hour to one and a half (1 3 1/2) hours, for the record. 4 And Ms. Jones...? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, maybe 6 twenty (20) minutes. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Twenty (20) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 9 should... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 14 Tuck-Jackson...? 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I -- I gather, 16 Commissioner, you're debating whether or not to call the 17 afternoon break now or to -- to proceed ahead. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm open. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: If -- if we 20 have the afternoon break now I wouldn't mind an 21 opportunity to confer with one (1) of my colleagues, and 22 quite frankly it might affect the -- the amount of time 23 that I would be taking. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In a 25 favourable way?


1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: In a favourable 2 way, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then I think 4 we should take a break. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An offer you can't 6 refuse. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 We'll take our afternoon break now. 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, thank you 10 very much, Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 2:13 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:28 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed, please be seated. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 24 Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good


1 afternoon. 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Constable 3 Gransden is understandably enjoying the sun outside. 4 THE WITNESS: Sorry about that. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: That was my fault, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Sir, as you know, I am counsel for 10 the OPP. I have a number of brief areas that I wish to 11 address with you. 12 And if I could, sir, I want to take you to 13 Tab 9 of the materials, and in particular your notebook 14 reference at page 71. And of course, Mr. Commissioner, 15 I'm referring to what has been marked as Exhibit P-494. 16 Do you have that in front of you, sir? 17 A: Page 71 of my notes? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: If I could refer to my -- my notes -- 20 Q: I understand entirely. You told us, 21 sir, that you arrived at the sandy parking lot, and that 22 once you had an opportunity to actually enter the parking 23 lot, you found yourself amongst a number of First Nations 24 occupiers who had, from what we could probably, 25 reasonably assume, had previously been in the Park?


1 And you told us in your description that 2 there were several First Nations occupants in the parking 3 lot. Can you assist us any further as to numbers? 4 A: I believe I estimated about ten (10) 5 to twenty (20). 6 Q: Ten (10) to twenty (20)? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Now, you also told us 9 that, in effect, you and your fellow officers were able, 10 by -- by virtue of your presence, to have those 11 individuals moved back behind the fence line into the 12 Park; do I have that correct? 13 A: That's correct. There was no 14 physical contact between -- between us and the First 15 Nations people. 16 Q: Thank you. You anticipated my next 17 question which indeed was: You were able to achieve that 18 goal, merely by your presence, and not by any physical 19 confrontation? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. I'm also interested in 22 your communication that night, and that's why I wanted to 23 take you to page 71 of your notes, because I didn't catch 24 it. It may have occurred but I didn't catch it and I 25 wanted to make sure that the relevant portion of your


1 notebook was read into the record. 2 And in particular, sir, I'm interested in 3 confirmation that you told those individuals in the sandy 4 parking lot that they were to leave it; do I have that 5 correct? 6 A: Again, I don't -- I don't remember my 7 specific wording, but I indicated to them that they had 8 to leave, that the fence line was for the Provincial 9 Park. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: And that this wasn't part of the 12 Park. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: And then I -- I also cautioned them 15 for the offence of mischief. 16 Q: All right. And that's, again, what I 17 wanted to make it clear, that indeed your notes reflect 18 that those individuals were advised to leave or be 19 arrested for mischief. 20 You did write that in your notes that 21 night? 22 A: If I could, I'd rather rephrase that 23 that they were cautioned for -- for the offence, as 24 opposed to -- I wouldn't say that I would have 25 necessarily arrested them.


1 Q: I understand. 2 A: But they were cautioned of the 3 offence of mischief. 4 Q: I understand. And the point that I 5 want to make and make sure it's clear on the record, you 6 recorded those details in your notes, in other words, 7 that you cautioned them to remove themselves from the 8 parking lot and you also cautioned them about the 9 potential charge of mischief? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right, thank you. Turning then 12 to the following morning, you've told us about your 13 involvement not long after eight o'clock in the morning, 14 removing the picnic tables from the sandy parking lot. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And is it fair to say, sir, that 17 there were approximately twelve (12) officers who 18 attended at the sandy parking lot for that purpose? 19 A: That would be a reasonable estimate, 20 I believe. 21 Q: Okay. You told us today and, indeed, 22 we've heard from -- from another officer that you had a 23 shield. I understand from this officer that he had a 24 shield and his estimate was that approximately half of 25 you were carrying shields.


1 Do you have any recollection to assist us 2 in that regard? 3 A: I don't know if the number was that 4 high that it would have been half. There were a number 5 of shields -- 6 Q: All right. 7 A: -- officers carrying shields and a 8 number of them weren't. 9 Q: All right. And you told us that 10 there were two (2) individuals, two (2) First Nations 11 occupiers that were actually sitting in the sandy parking 12 lot when you arrived with your fellow officers. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: All right. And from your vantage 15 point, what you saw was that again the presence of this 16 dozen or so officers, some of whom had shields, when they 17 moved upon those two (2) individuals, those two (2) 18 individuals fled back into the Park to the other side of 19 the fence. 20 Do I have that correct? 21 A: When -- when we approached or when we 22 exited the vehicle that we were with we actually didn't 23 get very close. The way your question was worded that we 24 were actually in a close proximity and we really didn't. 25 Once they saw us coming they fled and they didn't just


1 cross the fence, they went in -- into the midst of the 2 Park. They continued deep into the Park. 3 Q: And they didn't come back out into 4 the sandy parking lot while you were there, did they? 5 A: No, they did not. 6 Q: No. And again, you were able to 7 achieve that end, namely getting the occupiers back 8 behind the fence line without the use of any physical 9 force; there was no physical confrontation between you 10 and those two (2) individuals? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Finally, sir, I'm going to take you 13 to the evening of September the 6th. And you spoke of 14 your attendance at Checkpoint Charlie, Checkpoint C, and 15 a civilian stopping at that checkpoint advising that his 16 vehicle had been damaged just up at the bend of the road, 17 just north of you, towards the lake. 18 And you indicated to us that he was 19 requested to speak to an individual whom you believed was 20 Mark Wright. And do I have it, sir, that you're not 21 entirely sure to whom he was requested to speak? 22 A: That -- that would be fair to say. 23 Q: All right. Because I can advise you, 24 sir, that we've heard evidence that, and I anticipate 25 we'll also hear additional evidence that it wasn't Mark


1 Wright to whom he was to speak, but that ultimately this 2 individual spoke with Mark Dew. 3 Would you have any reason to dispute that? 4 A: I -- no, I don't. 5 Q: All right, fair enough. Thank you 6 very much, Constable Grandsden; those are my questions. 7 Thank you, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Ms. Jackson. 10 Ms. McAleer...? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Officer Gransden. My 16 name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the lawyers 17 acting for the former Premier Mike Harris. 18 I have a couple of questions for you but 19 they are all limited to the evening of September 4th with 20 the first occupation of the Provincial Park. 21 Now, you indicated to Ms. Vella that it 22 was your understanding that as of September 4th, the Park 23 was going to be closed for day use. 24 I'm going to suggest to you that you 25 either misspoke or perhaps you're mistaken that the Park


1 was only going to be closed to overnight campers as of 2 September 4th, but the intent was that the Provincial 3 Park would remain open for day use after September 4th. 4 Is it possible that you're mistaken on 5 that point? 6 A: That's what I remember today that -- 7 that it was closing. The policy of the Ministry of 8 Natural Resources and how they use the Park, I'm -- I 9 could be wrong, I'm not privy to what they actually -- 10 how they actually operate their Park. 11 Q: Okay. So it's -- it's your memory 12 today looking back ten (10) years that it was your 13 understanding that it was going to be closed for day use 14 but you would defer to the representatives from the 15 Ministry of Natural Resources on that point? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Thank you. You also indicated that 18 you had escorted some individuals out of the Park on the 19 evening of September 4th. 20 Do you recall how many people you escorted 21 out of the Provincial Park that evening? 22 A: I don't really remember the exact 23 number. I would say in the neighbourhood of -- 24 specifically for myself to -- to escort, I remember one 25 (1) couple specifically. I think there was probably --


1 it might have been six (6) people in there at that time, 2 six (6) or eight (8), but I specifically remember myself 3 and Dougan escorting one (1) couple, a male and female. 4 Q: And of that six (6) to eight (8) 5 people was it your understanding that they had been 6 campers or day use users of the Park or were there also 7 some local cottagers in the Provincial Park at that point 8 in time? 9 A: I'm not sure what their situation -- 10 what brought them there. They could very well have been 11 either/ or. 12 Q: Okay. And then turning to the point 13 in time a little bit later where Mr. Roderick George 14 approached you and the other officers near the kiosk 15 right before the police cruiser window was smashed. 16 At that point in time, do you recall how 17 many police officers were in the general area of the 18 kiosk? 19 A: I believe there would have been ten 20 (10) -- ten (10) or twelve (12) possibly. 21 Q: Okay. And do you recall how many 22 First Nations people were there? 23 A: It's difficult for me to -- to fix a 24 number on that. As I said in my evidence in-chief, that 25 it was very dark and people would go into the darkness


1 area and then come into the lighted area. And I -- I 2 couldn't distinguish whether they were the people were 3 the same people going out and coming back in or different 4 people reappearing and thus those ones that went from the 5 light to the dark are stilling standing in the dark. 6 So it's hard to really get a good fix on 7 the number. 8 Q: Did you have the impression that the 9 First Nation people outnumbered the OPP officers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, Ms. Vella had asked you some 12 questions about where you were standing and when Mr. 13 Roderick George first approached the group of officers. 14 And it was my understanding from your evidence that you 15 had indicated that you were on the passenger side of the 16 cruiser whose window was smashed and Mr. Roderick George 17 was on the driver side and you were both near the trunk 18 area. 19 Is that correct? 20 A: Actually I -- I believe it was 21 reversed. I was on the driver side and he approached 22 onto the passenger side. 23 Q: Okay. And where was Sergeant Korosec 24 at that point in time? 25 A: He was on the passenger side.


1 Q: Okay. Passenger side next to -- 2 sorry, I've lost who was where. 3 A: Okay. He was -- he was on the same 4 side as Judas George. 5 Q: As Mr. -- as Mr. Roderick George. 6 And were you also standing in those positions when Mr. 7 Roderick George smashed the back window of the cruiser? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say then that 10 you were within ten (10) feet of Mr. Roderick George when 11 he did that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And Mr. -- I should say Sergeant 14 Korosec would have been even closer at that point in 15 time? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did you see that action by Mr. 18 Roderick George to smash out the -- the cruiser window, 19 did you see that as a threat of potential violence or 20 harm against you and Sergeant Korosec? Did you -- 21 A: I believe -- I believe it was 22 directed at the car specifically -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- for that act. 25 Q: But did you interpret that as a


1 threat that unless you and your colleagues leave the 2 Provincial Park, there could be further violence or 3 confrontation? 4 A: I believed that it -- the next phase 5 would be an escalation. 6 Q: And not with respect to just property 7 damage; that there was a threat against you and your 8 fellow officers? 9 A: Well, the potential was there for 10 that. 11 Q: Okay. And you told us a little bit 12 about the firecrackers or flares that were being thrown. 13 I think you described them as flares. 14 Did any of the First Nations people that 15 were present try and stop any of their -- the other First 16 Nation people from throwing those flares? 17 Did you see anybody take anyone aside and 18 say, Stop that, don't do that? 19 A: The flares were coming out of the 20 darkness and I was -- and I didn't even -- wasn't even 21 able to identify who was throwing it, so I wouldn't have 22 been able to see if they were -- if anyone was trying to 23 intervene in that at all. 24 Q: And you certainly didn't hear anybody 25 say anything to the effect of, Stop throwing those


1 flares? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And with respect to Mr. Roderick 4 George's action of breaking the cruiser window, did you 5 see any of the First Nation people gesture towards him or 6 say anything towards him that would indicate that they 7 didn't think he should have done that? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: And finally, at any point on 10 September 4th, did you hear any of the First Nation 11 occupiers make any reference to a burial ground in the 12 Provincial Park? 13 A: No, I did not. 14 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 Mr. Rosenthal...? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 21 Commissioner. I wasn't aware of my exact order. I 22 didn't know who was just before me, thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 24 indicated that you were switching with Mr. -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I hadn't 3 realized there were no other questions. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: Good afternoon, sir. My name is 7 Peter Rosenthal. I'm Counsel to some of the Stoney Point 8 people under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 9 And those people include Marcia Simon. 10 And I'm going to be mainly concentrating 11 on the two (2) areas in my examination of you, the arrest 12 of Marcia Simon and the picnic table incident. 13 Now, you told us, with respect to Marcia 14 Simon, that as you followed her, she was driving at 15 approximately the speed limit that evening, right, on 16 September 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that would have been about eighty 19 (80) kilometres an hour, was it, sir -- 20 A: Approximately. 21 Q: -- on Highway 21? 22 A: Approximately, yes. 23 Q: And can you give us a rough estimate 24 as to how long it took you and her and the other vehicle 25 from going -- going from outside the Army Camp to the


1 parking lot in Northville? 2 Just very roughly. 3 A: Roughly five (5) minutes. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: I believe that's about a five (5) 6 minute drive. 7 Q: About five (5) minutes or so? 8 A: Give or take, yes. 9 Q: And there wasn't any other traffic? 10 A: No. 11 Q: At all, throughout the entire drive, 12 as far as you recall? 13 A: As far as I recall, no. 14 Q: Now the only thing that Marcia Simon 15 did wrong that night, as far as you were concerned, was 16 fail to stop for police officers; is that correct? 17 A: The initial stop, we really didn't 18 know what her involvement may have been in -- in the 19 shooting, but she was arrested for failing to stop for 20 police. 21 Q: Am I correct that the only thing she 22 did wrong, as far as you could tell, was fail to stop for 23 police officers? 24 A: When we were in the -- the parking 25 lot of the restaurant, the only offence that -- at that


1 time that we were aware of, was the fail to stop for 2 police. 3 Q: And were you aware of any other 4 offence at any time, sir? 5 A: To date, I've not been aware of any 6 other offence she's committed. 7 Q: No. So why did you try to stop her 8 in the first place? 9 A: She left the scene of a -- of a 10 shooting. 11 Q: Did she leave the scene of a 12 shooting, sir? 13 A: I left the scene of the -- the 14 shooting and -- in the course of my duties, and she left, 15 I didn't know what her involvement could be. She could 16 have been a potential accused or a witness, leaving a 17 scene of a shooting. 18 Q: Did you, at any time during that 19 drive, enquire on your police radio as to whether any 20 vehicle such as hers might have been suspected of being 21 involved in the shooting? 22 A: No, we did not. 23 Q: Did you make any enquiries whatsoever 24 about her, in the course of that drive, sir? 25 A: No.


1 Q: No. And -- 2 A: During the drive, we wouldn't have 3 known who was driving the vehicle, who was in the 4 vehicle. 5 Q: Oh, really? Don't you do checks on 6 licence plates, sir? 7 A: Yes, we do, but it's not necessarily 8 the driver of the vehicle is the registered owner of the 9 vehicle. 10 Q: So instead of doing a check, you 11 decided to -- that you'd confront her with -- with rifles 12 when she -- when she stopped; is that right? 13 A: During the pursuit, sir, from the 14 radio transcript there was -- the lead pursuit vehicle 15 did call in the licence plate of the vehicle, but no 16 information did come back on that plate. 17 Q: Did you ask for a check on the 18 licence plate? 19 A: I did not. 20 Q: No. And that would be a routine 21 thing to do, to ask for a check of a licence plate if 22 you're pursuing a vehicle, wouldn't it, sir? 23 A: Quite often that's what would occur 24 during the pursuit. 25 Q: Yes. And in particular, in this


1 circumstance, you could have inquired of the people who 2 were closer to the incident itself, as to whether any car 3 with that licence plate or that description was suspected 4 of being involved, couldn't you? 5 A: We could have made some radio contact 6 with some of the other officers, I suppose. 7 Q: Yes. And you say that, As she was 8 leaving the scene of the shooting, but you saw her 9 leaving the Army Camp, right? 10 A: I saw her leaving the main entrance 11 of the Army Camp. 12 Q: The main entrance of the Army Camp, 13 and that's quite a distance from the scene of the 14 shooting, is it not, sir? 15 A: That is some distance, but the two 16 (2) are connected. 17 Q: Yes. And about how far away is it 18 from the scene of the shooting, actually, sir? 19 A: I would estimate about three (3) or 20 four (4) kilometres. 21 Q: Yes, three (3) or four (4) 22 kilometres. So was it your view, sir, that based on what 23 you've told us, you had authority to stop her -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- in the first place?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And where does that authority flow 3 from, sir? 4 A: The Highway Traffic Act. 5 Q: The Highway Traffic Act authorizes 6 you to stop her under what circumstances that obtained in 7 this case, in your view? 8 A: Well, initially I observed her fail 9 to stop for a stop sign at 21 Highway and Army Camp Road, 10 which is a violation of the Highway Traffic Act, which 11 would allow me -- would give me authority to stop her, to 12 attempt to stop her. 13 Q: I see. Did you ever charge her with 14 failing to stop at that stop sign, sir? 15 A: No, she was never -- to my knowledge 16 she was never charged with that offence. 17 Q: No, of course not, because you 18 weren't even thinking about that that night, were you, 19 sir? 20 A: To be honest, that wasn't -- wasn't 21 in my thoughts. 22 Q: No, it wasn't in your thoughts, to be 23 honest, right? 24 A: Not at that moment. 25 Q: Yes, it was only afterward that you


1 realized that might be an excuse to stop her, right? 2 Right? 3 A: No, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't phrase 4 it like that, sir. 5 Q: Well, it wasn't in your thoughts at 6 the time, you've told us, right? 7 A: That was not in my thoughts, but they 8 -- my thoughts were that the vehicle was leaving the 9 scene of a shooting, unknown if it was an accused or a 10 witness, and we had to ascertain who it was. 11 Q: Now, you've described the scene at 12 the parking lot in Northville, and you told us that 13 shortly after you got there you assumed a defensive 14 position behind your cruiser, right? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: About how far were you from Marcia 17 Simon at the time you were in that defensive position? 18 A: I believe I estimated about thirty 19 (30) feet. 20 Q: At thirty (30) feet? And she was 21 speaking fairly loudly, is that correct? 22 She was excited and speaking loudly? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you heard her and she heard you, 25 presumably?


1 A: I believe so. 2 Q: Now you know that you heard her, and 3 presumably she heard you? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And you heard her saying something 6 about needing an ambulance, surely, right? 7 A: I -- it has come to my attention that 8 that's what she was asking, and I don't recall, excuse 9 me, when -- when that came to my knowledge. 10 Q: But I would put it to you, shortly 11 after you assumed your defensive position, that would 12 have come to your knowledge from what she was saying on 13 the phone, right? 14 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure when I got 15 that information. 16 Q: Well, some time -- some time shortly 17 afterward; is that fair? 18 A: I'm -- I can't recall if I -- I got 19 that through information from counsel leading up to the 20 Inquiry, or -- or from the incident itself at the scene. 21 Q: You might not have known until the 22 Inquiry that she was inquiring about an ambulance on that 23 evening ten (10) years ago; is that what you're telling 24 us? 25 A: I -- I never had an opportunity to


1 hear the transcript from her until the Inquiry. 2 Q: I see. And you didn't at the time -- 3 didn't she tell you, the officers, she was trying to call 4 an ambulance? You don't recall that, sir? 5 A: I don't recall that. 6 Q: I see. What did you think she was 7 doing on the phone? 8 A: Placing a phone call or attempting to 9 place a phone call somewhere. 10 Q: Now you said that soon after your 11 arrival, when you started -- you and other officers were 12 yelling at her, she, I gather, leaned out of the phone 13 booth with the receiver in her hand and said something, 14 right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So this phone booth didn't have a 17 door on it, I believe; is that correct? Can you take 18 your mind back? 19 A: I -- I can't recall what -- what type 20 of phone booth it was. 21 Q: And in any event, though, you do 22 recall her leaning out of the phone booth, still holding 23 onto the -- to the phone with one hand, and leaning out 24 and saying something to the officers, right? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: And didn't she say at that time, I'm 2 trying to call an ambulance? What else could she have 3 said, sir? 4 A: Well there -- from the transcript 5 that -- that was played today, I caught some of her 6 conversation on there. 7 Q: Yes. So you know now that, at the 8 time, you heard, even if you don't specifically recollect 9 it now, ten (10) years later, you agree now that you 10 undoubtedly heard at the time that she was calling for an 11 ambulance, right? 12 A: Again, I don't recall when -- when 13 that information came to me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 15 Jones? He hasn't agreed with that up to this point. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: No. And Mr. 17 Commissioner, he can and ought to have a chance to look 18 at the transcript. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: My recollection is 21 there's nothing on the transcript where she says 22 something that I'm calling for an ambulance. She says 23 she's on the phone. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there 25 something that you can specifically point to, Mr.


1 Rosenthal. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He volunteered the 3 transcript. I didn't mention the transcript. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 5 That's fine then. Carry on. He hasn't said -- 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: But perhaps I could -- so I didn't 9 introduce that, the witness did. But perhaps I could ask 10 a slightly different question. 11 Do you agree sir, knowing everything you 12 know now, that even though you don't have a specific 13 recollection of what happened ten (10) years ago, it's 14 very likely that you were aware at the time that she was 15 seeking an ambulance? 16 A: She may have been calling an 17 ambulance. I don't know who she was calling. 18 Q: You don't agree it was likely that 19 you were aware of that at the time? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, do you recall 22 her mentioning the possibility that her son had been 23 shot? 24 A: No. 25 Q: I want to go to the point now that


1 you do recall, she's leaning out of the phone booth 2 saying something to you. You don't recall what, right? 3 Right? 4 A: Well she did lean out of the phone 5 booth and -- and did have an interaction with us? 6 Q: And had interaction, saying something 7 to you, she's holding onto the phone with one hand and 8 leaning out of the phone booth and saying something, 9 right? A: Yes. 10 Q: Now at that point you saw both her 11 hands, didn't you? Obviously. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I -- I don't remember if both hands 16 were actually visible or not. 17 Q: Well you saw one hand on the phone, 18 you told us, right? 19 A: She had one hand on the phone. 20 Q: And she was leaning out with the 21 other side, right? 22 A: Well you're characterizing as her 23 hand is displayed, but it may not have been. I don't 24 recall her second hand being out and visible from the 25 phone booth.


1 Q: Would you agree that it's very likely 2 that you saw both her hands at that instance, sir? 3 A: I don't recall seeing both her hands. 4 Q: I appreciate you don't recall. But 5 from everything you do recall and everything you know, 6 don't you agree that it's very likely that you did see 7 her hands; both of them? 8 A: Well she did have one hand on the 9 phone, and I don't recall the location of her other hand. 10 Q: Thank you. Meanwhile, you had a 11 rifle pointed at her, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And how many other officers had 14 rifles pointed at her? 15 A: Three (3) others. 16 Q: Three (3) others with rifles? So in 17 other words, all four (4) officers on the scene had 18 rifles out pointed at Marcia Simon. 19 A: There may be -- there may have been 20 some officers covering the car as well. So not 21 necessarily four (4) rifles pointed in her direction, but 22 four (4) officers did have rifles, and I know where my 23 rifle was pointed, and I can't necessarily account for 24 the other officers. 25 But we'd still have the car to worry about


1 as well at that point. 2 Q: So one (1) or two (2) of the other 3 officers might have been pointing their rifles at who you 4 now know was Marcia Simon's mother sitting in the car, 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: When you -- when you hold the rifle 8 like that, you keep your finger on the trigger, right? 9 A: No. 10 Q: You don't? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Where do you keep your finger? 13 A: As a safety precaution you would not 14 put your finger on the trigger, your trig -- your finger 15 would be outside of the trigger guard. 16 Q: Okay. And -- 17 A: And the safety would be on. 18 Q: The Ruger that you were using that 19 night is a semi-automatic? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: Now you told us that you were hearing 22 what she was saying. Why didn't you let her finish the 23 phone call? What was the urgency? 24 A: I wasn't aware of where she may have 25 been phoning.


1 Q: Well, you could hear what she was 2 saying. 3 A: Only when she turned and -- and 4 yelled back at us. 5 Q: Well -- 6 A: I couldn't hear -- I couldn't hear 7 her conversation on the telephone. 8 Q: And when she -- at the time, for 9 example, when she leaned out and said something, couldn't 10 you have gone closer then, when you saw that -- when you 11 saw what you saw about her, gone closer and listened to 12 what she's saying? 13 A: The only time that I approached was 14 when we were at a stalemate. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: I wasn't necessarily going to walk 17 directly up to her at that moment, because I wasn't sure 18 what the situation was that we were involved in. 19 Q: Now, we have a bit of a recording of 20 this interaction that night, and it was played to you and 21 I'm not going to play it again. 22 You identified P/C Lorch as the person who 23 said: 24 "Don't make a move lady." 25 Do you recall that part of it, sir?


1 A: I believe that was his voice. 2 Q: And then we hear Marcia Simon 3 respond: 4 "I'm just talking on the phone, get the 5 gun out of here." 6 I would put it to you that that suggests, 7 and I'd ask you to take your mind back and verify, that 8 he must have been right near her with the gun actually 9 right in the phone booth when she says: 10 "I'm just talking on the phone, get the 11 gun out of here." 12 A: No, that -- I believe that recording 13 of that conversation is when she was still in the phone 14 booth and she turned to us and yelled those words. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And we were still in a defensive 17 position at that point. 18 Q: But I would put it to you that while 19 you were still in a defensive position, PC Lorch 20 undoubtedly was right there at the phone booth with the 21 gun right near her. 22 A: No, sir. I was the only one that 23 actually approached the phone booth and Lorch didn't come 24 up to me until I was wrestling with Ms. Simon. 25 Q: Okay. So now let's get to your


1 approach. You told us that when you decided to make the 2 approach, you put your rifle down and took out your 3 handgun, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: What kind of a handgun were you 6 carrying that night? 7 A: A Sig Sauer. 8 Q: Sorry? 9 A: A Sig Sauer, a 40 calibre Sig Sour. 10 Q: Thank you. And so you -- are you a 11 right handed person? 12 A: Yes, I am. 13 Q: So you kept that in your right hand 14 as you approached her? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: Both hands, actually, on my approach. 18 Q: On your approach, both hands. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then you went right up to Ms. 21 Simon with that gun in both hands, and gave her further 22 instructions to move, right? 23 A: I saw -- I stopped the -- a short 24 distance from the phone booth and then gave her further 25 instruction that she --


1 Q: With the gun pointed right at her. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And how close were you to her at that 4 point? 5 A: Ten (10) feet. 6 Q: Ten (10) feet. And you gave her 7 further instructions to come out of the phone booth? 8 A: And show her hands in a safe 9 position, yes. 10 Q: Show her hands in a safe position. 11 But you'd seen her hands before, sir, hadn't you; before 12 that? 13 A: Again, she had one hand on the phone, 14 when we discussed this before, but I can't recall seeing 15 her second hand. 16 Q: Now when you told her -- gave her 17 further orders at that point, did she not tell you at 18 that point, I'm calling an ambulance, people have been 19 hurt, or words to that effect? 20 A: I don't recall -- 21 Q: You don't recall? 22 A: -- who she was calling. 23 Q: But in any event, she didn't come out 24 of the phone booth, right? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And so you approached closer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And as you approached closer, you 4 kept your gun trained on her until you got right next to 5 her, right? 6 A: I went from holding my pistol with 7 two (2) hands to holding it with one (1) hand, and 8 reached into the phone booth. 9 Q: Yes. And so you held your pistol 10 with two (2) hands, and you got how close to her with the 11 pistol, sir? 12 A: My pistol? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: My pistol was in my right hand, and I 15 reached in and grabbed her with my left hand. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: So the length of my arm and half my 18 body. 19 Q: So she's in the phone booth, your 20 pistol's in your right hand, and you grab at her jacket, 21 you told us; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: To pull her out of the phone booth. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you did.


1 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: And you pulled her hard? 3 A: I pulled her out of the phone booth. 4 Q: Yeah. And you were holding your 5 pistol at the same time. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And she was struggling a bit? 8 A: She began to struggle then. 9 Q: And then what did you with your 10 pistol? 11 A: I holstered my pistol. 12 Q: Now are you taught to engage in a 13 struggle with someone, a physical struggle with someone 14 while your pistol is out in one (1) hand, sir? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No, that's contrary to all the 17 training that you received; is it not, sir? 18 A: When I removed her from the phone 19 booth I didn't anticipate that she would start to 20 struggle with me. 21 Q: Well, sir, to physically remove 22 someone, in that circumstance, by pulling them with a gun 23 in your hand, is regarded as an extremely dangerous 24 manoeuvre; is it not? 25 A: I didn't anticipate her to -- to


1 begin to struggle with me, and at no time during the 2 struggle that -- was my pistol pointed in her direction. 3 Q: Would you agree that's contrary to 4 all training, to pull somebody from a phone booth with a 5 gun in your hand? 6 A: It's possible in -- in an encounter 7 that you could end up in a -- a struggle with someone 8 while you did have your pistol or a weapon in your hand. 9 Q: Sir, do you agree it's counter to 10 your training or not, sir? 11 A: We're not trained to specifically 12 engage someone in -- in a hand struggle with -- with your 13 weapon in your hand, but it is possible that could occur. 14 Q: Aren't you instructed that it's very 15 dangerous to do anything with a handgun, other than shoot 16 when necessary, from an appropriate distance, because 17 there's a danger that a handgun may go off inadvertently? 18 A: Sir, a handgun will not go off 19 inadvertently. 20 Q: In a struggle, handguns don't go off 21 sometimes, eh? 22 A: They will only if your finger's on 23 the trigger. The Sig Sour has safety mechanisms that 24 prevent that. 25 Q: I see. So you're saying it's


1 consistent with your training to do what you did; is that 2 correct? 3 A: No, sir, I did not say that. 4 Q: Do you say that -- that your training 5 would have included that it's very dangerous to do what 6 you did because of accidental discharge of firearms? 7 A: The only way that the pistol will 8 discharge is if your finger was on the trigger, and it 9 isn't -- 10 Q: I'm asking -- 11 A: -- it's possible when you did have -- 12 when you have a weapon in your hand that you could, 13 without knowledge, end up in a physical confrontation 14 with somebody. 15 Q: But you didn't do it without 16 knowledge, sir, you initiated the physical confrontation 17 by pulling on her, right? 18 A: But I didn't anticipate her to begin 19 to struggle with me. 20 Q: What did you anticipate she would do, 21 sir? 22 A: To comply with our demands. 23 Q: She hadn't complied up to then, 24 right? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Now you grabbed her, you say, by the 2 jacket? 3 A: By her clothing, yes. 4 Q: But then -- but then in the ensuing 5 struggle you grabbed her in many places as you wrestled 6 her to the ground, right? 7 A: I was trying to get control of her. 8 Q: Yes. And you grabbed her in many 9 places right? 10 A: Mostly in the -- in the arms. 11 Q: In the arms, in particular? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: In particular, you grabbed her arm 14 quite strongly, right? 15 A: I was trying to get a hold of her 16 arms, yes. 17 Q: Yes. And -- and you pushed her to 18 the ground with the assistance of P/C Lynch; is that 19 correct? 20 A: We placed her on the ground with -- 21 with Constable Lorch. 22 Q: Well you pushed her to the ground; 23 she wasn't voluntarily going to the ground, right? 24 A: We assisted her in going to the 25 ground.


1 Q: You assisted her in going to the 2 ground? 3 A: I wouldn't characterize it as -- as a 4 push. 5 Q: You'd characterize it as assistance, 6 sir? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I see. So "assistance" suggests that 9 she wanted to go to the ground and you helped her out? 10 A: No, she didn't necessarily want to go 11 to the ground; that's -- that's what ensued with the 12 struggle. 13 Q: You pushed her to the ground very, 14 very vigorously, did you not, sir? Did you not? 15 A: We put her to the ground. 16 Q: And then you handcuffed her, hands 17 behind her back, cuffed, as she lay face down on the 18 ground, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I put it to you, you knew to some 21 extent, from what she'd been saying, that she was 22 concerned about people who might have been seriously 23 wounded. 24 She gave you some indication of that, did 25 she not, sir?


1 A: Again, that would be consistent with 2 her calling an ambulance and I -- and I don't recall when 3 I found that she was calling an ambulance. 4 Q: So now she's lying on the ground, 5 take it up from that point, she's on the ground, facing 6 the ground, hands cuffed behind her back, it's about 7 midnight right; close to midnight, right? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I have noted that the time of arrest 12 was actually 11:15 p.m. 13 Q: Yes. So 11:15 she was lying in this 14 parking lot on the ground, your gun has been holstered; 15 did you take it out again after holstering it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: The other officers had -- still had 18 rifles pointed at Ms. Simon? 19 A: I'm not sure what -- what they were 20 pointing their rifles at, at that point. 21 Q: But they still had their rifles out? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You did the handcuffing? 24 A: Myself and Constable Lorch. 25 Q: You and Constable Lorch? And then


1 once she was handcuffed, lying on the ground, she didn't 2 have much room to struggle; is that fair? 3 A: The struggle was over, yes. 4 Q: The struggle was over. She lay on 5 the ground, her hands behind her back, cuffed, and then 6 you searched for weapons, right? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: You found no weapons on her, right? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And you searched the car and found no 11 weapons on the car, right? 12 A: Correct. Well I didn't search the 13 car, but the car was searched and there were no weapons 14 found -- 15 Q: Your fellow officers searched the car 16 and all the four (4) officers became aware, shortly after 17 she was first placed on the ground, that there were no 18 weapons, except for the officers' weapons, at that scene, 19 right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And there was nothing else in her car 22 or on her person that suggested any kind of criminal 23 activity, right? 24 A: Not a criminal offence, no. 25 Q: I'm sorry?


1 A: No, there was no criminal offence 2 that took place. 3 Q: No. None whatsoever. 4 A: Not to our knowledge at that point in 5 time. 6 Q: And did you find out at any point in 7 time that there was a criminal offence? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No. Did you at that time make any 10 inquiries to try to find out if a woman fitting the 11 description of Marcia Simon was suspected of being 12 involved in any criminal activity on that evening? 13 A: No, we did not. 14 Q: No, you did not. So you didn't have 15 anything at this time to charge her with, did you? 16 A: Yes, we could have charged with 17 failing to stop at a stop sign on -- 18 Q: Well, you told us -- 19 A: -- at 21 Highway -- 20 Q: -- that you -- 21 A: And we also had the offence of 22 failing to stop for police. 23 Q: Well, the failing to stop at a stop 24 sign, you've told us you didn't think of at the time, 25 sir, so let's leave that out of it, okay?


1 A: That's fine. But the -- but you 2 asked me if there were any offences that she could have 3 been charged with -- 4 Q: Okay. So -- 5 A: -- and that certainly -- 6 Q: -- in retrospect you realized, some 7 days later or perhaps when you rethought this, that she 8 could have been charged with failing to stop at a stop 9 sign, right? 10 A: Well I did note it in my notebook, so 11 it was not days later that, you know, that that would 12 be -- 13 Q: So -- 14 A: -- an option. 15 Q: So -- so -- how -- 16 A: But it -- 17 Q: Hours later. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Right. Did you -- did your notebook 20 how much afterwards? 21 A: I don't recall when I did it, but at 22 sometime after. 23 Q: A couple of hours later, probably? 24 A: Probably. 25 Q: So at that time when you made your


1 notes, you recollected the stop sign and thought that 2 might have been an offence, right? 3 A: Well I did note the stop sign at the 4 time that it -- it occurred, but my thoughts weren't on 5 the stop sign. 6 Q: Okay. So you had her identification, 7 right? You had her licence, her driver's licence? 8 A: I -- we did have her identification, 9 whether it was verbal or her driver's licence I'm not -- 10 I don't recall her driver's licence, but we did have her 11 ID. 12 Q: Why didn't you, at that point at 13 least, when things had calmed down and you saw there were 14 no weapons, and you didn't have anything else except for 15 possibly a stop sign, that you maybe thought of later, 16 why didn't you say, We're very sorry, Mrs. Simon, you're 17 very free to go, would you like our assistance in getting 18 home? 19 A: She was arrested for the offence of 20 failing to stop for police. At the time that we stopped 21 her, we weren't aware or we weren't -- we had no 22 information as to the circumstances around the shooting, 23 that I believed that she just left from; what her 24 involvement would have been. 25 I believe that that would have been for


1 further investigation by other officers that may have 2 more information than I had. 3 Q: Sir -- 4 A: And that's why she was detained. 5 Q: Failing to stop for police, you say 6 that's an offence under what Act, sir? 7 A: Highway Traffic Act. 8 Q: And once you have a person 9 identified, with respect to such an offence, are you 10 supposed to release the person or arrest that person, 11 sir? 12 A: Quite often, when a person is charged 13 with an offence, or arrested for an offence, including in 14 failing to stop for police, there are other criminal 15 offences that are taking place. 16 It may not be known specifically at the 17 time that the officer makes the stop from a pursuit, but 18 through investigation it -- it can be determined that 19 there's more criminal activity going on and that's maybe 20 the reason the person fled from the police. 21 Q: Yes. But before you arrest the 22 person, you have to have reasonable and probable grounds 23 that they were involved in a criminal activity, do you 24 not, sir? 25 A: To arrest under the Criminal Code of


1 Canada, sir. But under the Highway Traffic Act you have 2 to have reasonable grounds to believe they -- an offence 3 took place that's arrestable under the Highway Traffic 4 Act. 5 Q: Now you say that the offence was fail 6 to stop. 7 A: Fail to stop for police under the 8 Highway Traffic Act. 9 Q: Yes. And what do you say were your 10 grounds for stopping her in the first place? Simply that 11 there was a car leaving from the Army Camp; is that 12 right? 13 A: Well, at that time, we believed it 14 may have been involved in a -- an involved shooting -- or 15 a shooting that had occurred. 16 Q: Yes. But your grounds for that 17 belief was simply the fact that this car was leaving, at 18 the time that you saw it, the Army Camp, right? 19 A: Well, from an area that was connected 20 to the area that the shooting took place; the access from 21 the Army Camp to the beach area or from the beach area to 22 the Army Camp. 23 Q: Yes. Your grounds were this car was 24 driving away from an area three (3) to four (4) 25 kilometres in your estimate, from the scene of the


1 shooting shortly after the shooting, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Nothing else, right? 4 A: And that was the initial reason for 5 the -- for the traffic stop to determine that. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And then it would compound itself by 8 that vehicle not pulling over to the emergency lights 9 that may indicate that they did have some other intention 10 or involvement that may be more serious than just the 11 initial traffic stop. 12 Q: Your indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now Marcia Simon was a witness at 17 these proceedings and she testified and in the course of 18 her testimony, she reviewed some photographs that were 19 taken shortly after her involvement with you. 20 And in particular it's -- perhaps hard to 21 see with the light -- the lighting here in the glare of 22 the lighting. Perhaps if -- if we could have Exhibit 49 23 for the Officer to look at. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: I don't know if you could -- do you 2 see this? There are several pictures there, sir, at Tab 3 7, I believe. Yes, you appear to have this one opened. 4 It's one of several pictures. 5 A: Thank you. 6 Q: You can see better than we can that 7 on top of the paper that Ms. Simon's holding, there is a 8 very noticeable bruise on her upper right arm. 9 Do you see that, sir? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And from your description a few 12 moments ago, the way you grabbed her, it's reasonable to 13 infer that you caused that wound, is it not, sir? 14 A: Well, she certainly does have a 15 bruise on her arm and I don't when the photograph was 16 taken. 17 Q: But that's -- that's where -- that's 18 in the location approximately that you told us you were 19 grabbing her in the upper arm, right? 20 A: Well, she was grabbed by her arms, 21 yes. 22 Q: In the upper arm you told us -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- right? Approximately, in such a 25 location, right?


1 A: It's possible. 2 Q: Now, you turned over Marcia Simon to 3 other officers to keep her in custody, right? 4 A: She was transferred over to a 5 prisoner van for transport to the Forest Detachment. 6 Q: Yes. Did you do any follow-up with 7 respect to that arrest? 8 A: No, I did not. My understanding from 9 the radio communications that consultation was made with 10 a detective sergeant at -- I believe, in Forest 11 Detachment. So they would have followed up the arrest at 12 Forest Detachment. 13 Q: Did you find out what ultimately 14 happened to Marcia Simon? 15 A: I believe she was released 16 unconditionally later that night. 17 Q: Yes. Did you think she should have 18 been charged with failing to stop at that stop sign? 19 A: The stop sign? That wasn't a 20 priority for me that -- that evening. 21 Q: Did anybody in the OPP at any time 22 from the date of this incident to the present day, 23 discuss with you this arrest of Marcia Simon? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Was there any discipline of any kind


1 that was considered, as far as you're aware, with respect 2 to your arrest of Marcia Simon? 3 A: No. 4 Q: That's striking, sir, that you came 5 to this Inquiry, and even knowing everything you know 6 now, you didn't express any regret about your arrest of 7 Marcia Simon? 8 Do you regret it at all, sir? 9 A: From what I understand I -- I 10 understand it was a traumatic event or a very serious 11 event for Ms. Simon. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And -- and I wish for all our parts 14 that -- that we didn't have to go through that. 15 Q: And why does it take me saying that 16 to get you to say that, sir? Can you imagine -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 18 that's fine, Mr. Rosenthal. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 21 him the question, he's answered it. I think you should 22 move on. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I wanted to 24 pursue it a little further, Mr. Commissioner, but I'll 25 follow your direction.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: I'll move then to the previous day, 7 the picnic table incident, the evening of September 5th. 8 Now first, in preparation for that you, 9 told us that you had an interchange with Dudley George on 10 September 2nd a couple of days before September 5th. You 11 can look at your notes if you like it's -- it's at Tab 9 12 page 66. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes? 17 Q: Now, as you indicated to us, sir, 18 earlier, you wrote in your notes Dudley and unknown 19 person, describing the two (2) male persons that you 20 interacted with on that occasion, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So evidently by that time you knew 23 Dudley as Dudley. 24 A: And yeah -- again, I don't recall how 25 I got that knowledge.


1 Q: You don't recall how you got the 2 knowledge? 3 A: No. 4 Q: It appears from various evidence that 5 we've had that he was among the better known Stoney Point 6 people as far as the officers were concerned. He was 7 known to a number of officers. 8 Does that square with your recollection, 9 sir? 10 A: I would believe so, yes. 11 Q: And apparently from time to time he - 12 - he teased officers, yelled at officers in various ways 13 and so on and that's one (1) of the ways perhaps that 14 they came to know him. 15 Did you -- did you have some indication of 16 that, sir? 17 A: I did have a confrontation with him 18 on this occasion that we're discussing, for the teasing 19 part I -- I guess. But other officers that were on my 20 team worked the Lambton County area and that made -- 21 Q: Sorry. Sorry, my hearing is bad, 22 other officers that were on you team...? 23 A: Worked in Lambton County. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: And may have known of him previous to


1 the Ipperwash incident as well. 2 Q: Even prior to Ipperwash but -- 3 A: Me -- I guess that's speculation on 4 my part but... 5 Q: But in the course of the Ipperwash 6 incident we understand there were occasions when he 7 yelled at officers or when he was involved in mooning 8 officers and so on; have you heard -- heard of any of 9 that? 10 A: No, no, I wasn't aware of that. 11 Q: Now, as you approached the sandy 12 parking lot on that evening of September 5th when there 13 were picnic tables in the parking lot can you tell us how 14 the picnic tables were distributed as you recall? 15 A: I remember the -- the barricaded 16 picnic tables being too high, like one (1) on top of the 17 other -- 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: -- in a bit of a haphazard pile. 20 Q: Can you tell us approximately how 21 many picnic tables there were to your recollection? 22 A: I -- you know I -- I have no idea how 23 many. 24 Q: And can you tell us what direction 25 they were in? They -- we understand they were in the


1 sandy parking lot outside the entrance to Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park, so it's at the north end I guess of Army 3 Camp Road; is that correct so far? 4 A: Yes, right at the bend where the -- 5 the entranceway to the sandy parking lot would be. 6 Q: Yes, and then -- so from your 7 recollection were they blocking the entrance to the 8 parking lot or were they distributed along the direction 9 of the Army Camp Road pretty much? 10 A: They were blocking the entranceway to 11 the parking lot. 12 Q: To the parking lot or -- 13 A: They were -- they were end to end 14 blocking the entrance to the parking lot. 15 Q: Not to -- not to the park but to the 16 parking lot? 17 A: The parking lot, the sandy parking 18 lot. 19 Q: I see. Your indulgence. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: We had some evidence from Constable 24 Whelan who was also involved in that incident and he 25 marked an exhibit -- and I -- I'm sorry, Mr.


1 Commissioner, I didn't give notice about this but I 2 realize it would be useful to have him describe what he 3 saw in relation to that marked exhibit. 4 And I'm informed by Mr. Millar it's P- 5 1239. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps, Mr. 10 Rosenthal, you'll describe what this is for the Witness, 11 so he'll know what it is. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I shall. Yes, 13 sir. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Now, sir, forgetting the written on 19 part for a moment, the printed part is a diagram of the 20 intersection there of Army Camp Road and East Parkway and 21 purports to show the sandy parking lot. 22 And does that look familiar to you, as a 23 representation of that area, sir? 24 If you're going to speak as you look 25 closely at that, you need to take the hand held mic, if


1 you would. 2 A: Oh. I'll just move back, actually. 3 Q: Okay, that's fine. 4 A: I just want to study it a bit before 5 I -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Can you orient yourself with respect 12 to that diagram, sir? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Now, so it shows the sandy 15 parking lot. Could you indicate how you, in your view, 16 thought the picnic tables were placed as you arrived on 17 that occasion of September 5th, 1995? 18 A: As I remember it -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- the picnic tables would be across 21 in this direction, covering the -- this'll be the 22 entranceway to the -- to the sandy parking lot area and I 23 recall them being end to end, crossing this area. 24 Q: Yes. I -- I don't know if we want 25 him to mark this diagram as well, I'm in your hands but -


1 - but -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Get a new one. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Or perhaps, Mr. 4 Millar suggested, a new -- a new diagram and this officer 5 can mark it to show his view of the situation. 6 So, with your indulgence, sir. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The ever 11 reliable Mr. Millar produces another copy of the diagram. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Right, and he 13 produced that right out of his sleeve, so it's amazing. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He's really a 16 magician. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Now, sir, that's now your diagram, to 20 do what you will with. In particular, would you perhaps 21 mark for us the line of picnic tables as you recall 22 seeing them upon your arrival that evening, sir? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And you've done a more detailed 2 diagram than I expected. Am I correct -- and you've 3 signed it, have you? 4 A: Just to qualify that it was mine. 5 Q: Yes, thank you. Now, it looks like, 6 and tell me if I'm interpreting it correctly, you've 7 drawn a line of approximately four (4) tables in length 8 across to the entry to the sandy parking lot, and you've 9 indicated that those tables have tables on top of them as 10 well; is that fair? 11 A: That's what I'm trying to indicate. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: That's what I am trying to indicate, 14 yes. 15 Q: That's what you're trying to 16 indicate. 17 A: Now, the number itself, though, I 18 can't -- I can't estimate. I don't recall the actual 19 number that it would take to cross that section. 20 Q: Could it -- 21 A: I'm just -- 22 Q: -- have been five (5) -- 23 A: -- interpreting that there's four -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- but that's the position I remember


1 them being in. 2 Q: Okay. And as you arrived, I gather 3 you saw Constable Whelan's cruiser up against some of 4 those tables and pushing them; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you -- can you roughly 7 indicate, perhaps with an arrow going in the direction of 8 the cruiser, where his cruiser was? 9 An arrow in the direction of motion of the 10 cruiser. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: You've gone way beyond what I said 15 and drawn a cruiser complete with tail lights. 16 A: No, those would be the tires. 17 Q: Oh, those are the tires there. But 18 pointing in the direction upper right on the diagram, 19 against the tables, a little bit closer to the lower 20 right of the line of tables rather than in the center; is 21 that fair? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And so as you arrived, Constable 24 Whelan was in the process of pushing the tables in 25 roughly the position you indicated.


1 And then what did you see happen as he 2 pushed? 3 A: Well, as I arrived, I don't know if 4 he was necessarily pushing at that point but his car -- 5 the front push-bumpers of his car were actually resting 6 on the -- the picnic table. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: I don't know if he was actually in a 9 forward motion at that point or he just was stopped at 10 that position. 11 Q: Maybe he had just inched up to that 12 point or something? 13 A: Possibly. I don't recall a movement 14 until after I was out on foot then -- then the car began 15 to move forward. 16 Q: And so the patrol car that he was in, 17 moved forward. And what happened to the picnic tables as 18 you observed? 19 A: He pushed them out -- out of the way 20 and created a space. 21 Q: In -- in the direction you've 22 indicated he kept going straight in that direction pretty 23 much? 24 A: It might not be exactly accurate -- 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: -- the positioning of the car but I 2 do remember in that position somewhat and pushed in 3 towards the parking lot. 4 Q: And pushing towards the parking lot 5 and then what happened? Did you see what happened? 6 A: It pushed a hole -- pushed the picnic 7 tables out the way creating a hole that we could walk 8 through. 9 Q: And did you see a picnic table end up 10 on the hood of his cruiser? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: You did not. And then you got our of 13 your car -- out of your cruiser? 14 A: Yes, we got out of our car. And we 15 were on -- 16 Q: And you walked onto the sandy parking 17 lot? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you had a cannister of pepper 20 spray in one (1) hand? 21 A: I had pepper spray on my belt. 22 Q: On your belt. At that point you 23 hadn't removed it from your belt? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And at that point you didn't have any


1 weapon removed from your belt? 2 A: I had my baton in my hand. 3 Q: You had your baton in your hand. 4 That baton was an ASP, is it called; is that correct? 5 A: No, it was the twenty-six (26) inch 6 wooden baton. 7 Q: I see. Some of your fellow officers 8 were, just recently at that time, issued Asp's; is that 9 correct? 10 A: I don't believe that we were issued 11 ASP until following this incident. 12 Q: I see, okay. So you had a baton in 13 your hand as you walked towards the First Nations people 14 in the sandy park? 15 A: As I entered the -- actually from the 16 time I entered -- left my car I had my baton in my hand. 17 Q: Yeah. And then -- and -- and you 18 went towards the First Nations people then? 19 A: I entered the -- the sandy parking 20 lot and as stated, as we entered they moved in -- or 21 moved back into the Park without any -- any contact 22 between us. 23 Q: And did other officers have batons 24 out that you observed? 25 A: I don't recall. I don't know.


1 Q: And about how many officers were 2 present at that time? 3 A: I'm estimating about eight (8). 4 Q: About eight (8)? 5 A: Six (6) or eight (8) officers were 6 there. 7 Q: Now, by this time you would have 8 known Dudley George surely, because you had the incident 9 with him a couple of days earlier. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: But you -- you say you don't 12 specifically recall Dudley George being present at this 13 occasion? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: Did you attend the sandy parking lot 16 on any other occasion on September 5th besides the time 17 that Constable Whelan was pushing the tables? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Now, you said you were talking with 20 one of the First Nations people who seemed, in your view, 21 to be more reasonable than some of the others. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And explaining to that person why it 24 might be mischief to have done what they did with the 25 picnic tables.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what did you tell him? 3 A: When we entered there, I told him to 4 go back -- go back across the fence line into the Park. 5 And I said about what they were doing that they were -- 6 they could be arrested for mischief, the offense of 7 mischief. 8 Q: Right. And then woul -- a person ask 9 you how could -- 10 A: And -- and he had -- he had inquiry 11 into how, you know, what they were doing could be 12 construed as being a mischief. 13 Q: Right. And what did you answer to 14 him. 15 A: And I explained to him that by 16 preventing people from having lawful use of that land 17 that they were entitled to, could be an offense against 18 mischief, in the Criminal Code. 19 Q: And then you say right at that 20 moment, someone threw sand at you? 21 A: No. We began our conversation in the 22 sandy parking lot and it continued on until we got to the 23 fence line. 24 Q: Yes. So you -- you continued the 25 discussion about the charge of mischief with this person?


1 A: Mischief and the conversation also 2 went to, if you will, the ownership of the parking lot -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- that I believe their intention was 5 that it -- or contention was that it belonged to the 6 Provincial Park or was part of the Provincial Park, and I 7 was saying that no, that the Park boundary was at the 8 fence. 9 Q: Well, could it be perhaps that you 10 misunderstood, and what they were telling you was that it 11 was part of their land; whether it was Park or not it was 12 part of Stoney Point land in their view? 13 A: That -- that may be their position 14 again, that it was their land -- 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: -- all part and parcel but at that 17 time my -- my interpretation was that their issue was 18 with the Provincial Park, not -- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- with that. 21 Q: Yes, but in retrospect they might 22 have been saying it's all our land. It doesn't matter if 23 it's the Park or not it's part of Stoney Point, right? 24 A: That may be so. 25 Q: So in any event, you're having this


1 discussion with that -- that occupier and you -- and you 2 go closer to the Park boundary -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- in the course of that discussion? 5 A: We were at the Park boundary when we 6 were having the discussion. 7 Q: And you're at the Park boundary and 8 then how did it come to be that someone threw sand in 9 your face, sir? 10 A: Someone did. Not the person I was 11 speaking with. 12 Q: No, well, we know who threw sand in 13 your face because he testified that he threw sand in your 14 face. Or he threw in an officer's face and we haven't 15 had any evidence of anyone else getting sand in his face. 16 So Marlin Simon testified that he threw 17 sand in your face, but he said he did that after you had 18 said several things, he view -- viewed it as taunting the 19 people, and in particular that you said words to the 20 effect that, Dudley, you'll be the -- you'll be the 21 first. 22 And that's why he threw sand in your face, 23 he says. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 think that Mr. Rosenthal needs to put Mr. Simon's


1 evidence fairly to this Witness. As I recall Mr. Simon's 2 evidence was 'someone', and it was someone he said had 3 sergeant stripes on, was making some comments, sand got 4 thrown in that person's face and then another officer 5 sprayed with pepper spray. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would be 8 helpful then if you're going to cross-examine anymore on 9 this that you put the evidence to him -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm happy to put it 11 in detail -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know 13 you're trying to do it quicky. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was trying to 15 summarize. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 17 understand. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We have evidence 19 from Marlin Simon, from Kevin Simon and from David 20 George. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if 22 you're going to put evidence to him then unfortunately 23 you have to make sure it's accurate if you're going to 24 short -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, sir, I don't


1 understand Ms. Jones to be saying -- in claiming that 2 anything I said was inaccurate. What I said was -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 4 think that's what she said. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- we have -- we 6 have evidence -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it's 8 incomplete. Incomplete. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It's incomplete 10 certainly because it's incomplete. 11 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, my 12 objection is absolutely that's it -- that it is 13 inaccurate and I'm just -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I'm just saying to 16 Mr. Rosenthal that if he's going to put someone's version 17 of events to this officer he ought to do it fairly and he 18 ought to be accurate. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I agree 20 and -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I'll -- I'm 22 happy to put the entire evidence. I have to look it up, 23 it'll take me a moment. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL:


1 Q: I have Morris (phonetic) and Kevin 2 Simon's evidence about this and then I'll -- I'll look to 3 Marlin Simon's -- I know roughly where it is and I'll 4 find it somewhere, but let me refer specifically to Kevin 5 Simon's testimony then who says he was present. 6 And his testimony was on December 1st, 7 2004, beginning at page 172. And then the part about -- 8 where he talks about the picnic tables, but then -- so 9 it's December -- sorry, I -- December 1st, 2004. And 10 then I should like to look at page 175. 11 And I should indicate that Mr. Simon 12 thought that this was a slightly different time after the 13 picnic tables. But he says the following beginning now - 14 - so now I'm beginning to read actual evidence, sir, on 15 page 175. He says there was another point beginning at 16 line 16. 17 "Not at that point", leads me to: 18 "There was another point that evening 19 when there was a -- police officers 20 were back in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Yeah. Later on, after dark that 22 night, they've come up with, I guess 23 they were riot squad, kind of 24 management unit, whatever the guys with 25 the shields and the clubs.


1 Q: On September 5th? 2 A: Yeah. The day before Dudley had 3 been shot. They came up there and 4 marched in the same fashion. They came 5 into the parking lot, beat their clubs 6 a bit, spread out. 7 And then the one person that was doing 8 a lot of the talking, he'd been saying 9 some stuff about, Welcome to Canada, 10 and all this sort of stuff. But when 11 he spotted Dudley, he recognized Dudley 12 and pointed directly at him and said, 13 'Hey, Dudley, you're going to be 14 first,' pointing at him. 15 At that point, my brother -- I was 16 standing next to my brother Marlin, he 17 must have had a handful of sand. And 18 we had been spread out along that fence 19 in the Park, and the guy was doing the 20 talking on the opposite side, was 21 facing him. 22 My brother threw that sand in the guy's 23 face after he had said that about 24 Dudley. 25 Upon that, as soon as that happened,


1 the two (2) guys on either side pulled 2 out their pepper spray. You could see 3 a big mist of that, but it didn't 4 really have any effect." 5 So that was Kevin Simon's evidence. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, do you 7 want to ask him about that? 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm going to turn - 9 - well, there was several different descriptions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was trying to 12 summarize in a way that was not inaccurate, I don't 13 believe, but there was several -- perhaps I can try 14 again, and I'll read the others, too. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: There were several different 18 descriptions at different times and different places to 19 some extent, and it is ten (10) years later, as you 20 appreciate, as well as every witness appreciates, sir, 21 okay? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: But I'm saying that the following is 24 true. What the several descriptions have in common is 25 that an officer said words to the effect of, Dudley,


1 you'll be the first. 2 The officer was -- then had sand thrown in 3 his face by Marlin Simon. And then there was a response 4 of pepper spray. Different accounts as to how many 5 officers or who did the pepper spray so. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, now -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- does My Friend 8 agree that there is common evidence to that effect? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Different officers, 10 different times -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yeah. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- different people 13 spraying the pepper spray. I think he needs to put the 14 evidence fairly to this witness. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he's 16 going to ask him about it any more that -- I thought you 17 had enough to ask your question, but if -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I -- that's 19 what I think, Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, try 21 not to be too general. You've put him a very specific 22 piece of evidence, is that not enough for you to ask the 23 question you want to ask him? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, yes. Well, I 25 -- but there were several descriptions that had -- all it


1 had in common, the several elements I mentioned. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: So, sir, I'm suggesting to you, do 5 you know of any other officer who had sand thrown in his 6 face at any time during the Ipperwash incident? 7 Do you, sir? Have you heard of any such 8 officer? 9 A: No, I do not know of any other 10 officer -- 11 Q: At any time in September of 1995 or 12 August 1995 at all; no, right? 13 A: Not that I know of. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know of any other 15 officer who used pepper spray in the course of this 16 incident, sir? 17 A: Not that I know of. 18 Q: Who actually sprayed pepper spray; 19 you don't know of another, do you? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. Now, at the time that you did 22 use pepper spray, you say you sprayed the person who 23 threw sand at you? 24 A: I believed I did. 25 Q: But you say you might have gotten


1 some other people, too, right? 2 A: Well the effect of pepper spray, when 3 the spray goes out -- I tried to target the person I 4 believed did that, but the way that pepper spray works, 5 that there is some misting, and some possible overspray, 6 and it can affect other people in the immediate vicinity, 7 including the police. 8 Q: Yes. And in fact, the excerpt that I 9 read to you from Kevin Simon's evidence, he indicates 10 that he saw pepper spray, the wind take it. 11 And that's a problem with pepper spray, 12 that the wind can take it, right? 13 A: It can be affected by -- by the wind. 14 Q: So you don't know for sure where your 15 pepper spray ended up, whether it ended up affecting the 16 person who attacked you, or other people, right? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 18 testified to this in-chief. I think you said something 19 to that effect in your evidence in-chief, so it's a 20 question you can answer, I think. 21 THE WITNESS: When I administered the 22 pepper spray, I -- I administered it specifically to the 23 person that I believed that had thrown the sand and 24 gravel in my face. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: You tried to administer it to that 3 person? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: But you acknowledged that it might 6 have gotten other people as well, right? 7 A: It's possible that it may have. 8 Q: And what was your understanding at 9 the time, as to when you were supposed to use pepper 10 spray, and was that use of pepper spray consistent with 11 your understanding, sir? 12 A: The use of pepper spray in this 13 incident, I was using it to defend myself, as I was 14 assaulted by the throwing of the sand and gravel in my 15 face. 16 And it was used to stop any further 17 assault or -- against myself or any other officer that 18 may have occurred. And it gives an opportunity to 19 disengage from each other, the -- the Natives and myself 20 and the other officers to disengage from close proximity. 21 Q: You sprayed your pepper spray, and 22 what did you do right after that, sir? 23 A: Immediately backed away from the 24 fence and begin to clean the sand out of my eyes. 25 Q: I see. And it wouldn't have been


1 appropriate to just back away, without spraying pepper 2 spray? 3 A: I -- I did it to prevent any further 4 assault happening. 5 Q: I see. And did you see the person 6 that you were pepper spraying as you -- as you sprayed 7 him? 8 A: I could see where he was and -- and I 9 thought that I had administered the pepper spray to the 10 person that -- it was over the shoulder of the person I 11 was talking to. 12 Q: Yes, but he threw sand at you. You 13 saw him throw the sand, right? 14 A: I saw where the sand came from, yes. 15 Q: And then -- and then what was he 16 doing as you pepper sprayed him, was he scooping some 17 other sand, or what? 18 A: It happened very quickly and I pepper 19 sprayed and immediately backed -- backed away. 20 Q: You filed a Use of Force Report with 21 respect to that use of pepper spray, you told us? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: Did you file a Use of Force Report 24 with respect to your pointing firearms at Marcia Simon? 25 A: No, I did not.


1 Q: Was it not required that you file a 2 Use of Force Report if you point a firearm at someone? 3 A: It's required when you draw your 4 pistol and present it to -- and point it at someone. 5 Yes, I would have been required to put a Use of Force 6 Report in. 7 Q: And you failed to fulfill that 8 requirement? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Do you know if any of the other 11 officers who were pointing guns at Marcia Simon filed Use 12 of Force Reports? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: You saw several other officers in the 15 sandy parking lot with pepper spray canisters out, you 16 told us, right? 17 A: No, I... 18 Q: Oh, sorry, perhaps I misunderstood or 19 misheard you. You didn't see anyone else with pepper 20 spray out? 21 A: I'm just speaking on my own account, 22 that I had my pepper spray out, I don't know about the 23 officers. 24 Q: Well, if you take your mind back, did 25 you see anyone else with pepper spray out, or not?


1 A: No, I don't recall. 2 Q: Did you see anyone else with batons 3 out? 4 A: No, I don't recall. 5 Q: Thank you, Officer. Thank you, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. 9 Mr. Alexander...? 10 Are you okay to continue or do you need a 11 break? Do you need a break? 12 THE WITNESS: If we could, please, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's have a 14 short break. But just before we do -- 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just one (1) more -- 16 just -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 18 finish you today, if possible, so you don't have to come 19 back, but let's just see how far we get. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just housekeeping -- 21 sorry. I wonder if first of all we could make the 22 diagram that was marked by Officer Gransden -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that 24 should be an exhibit. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- of the sandy parking


1 lot area the next exhibit? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What exhibit 3 number Mr -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1258, Your Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1258. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1258: "Stan" Thompson drawing, 8 September 20, 1995. Marked by 9 Witness Mr. Mark Gransden, 10 March 30, 2006. 11 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And I should also 13 indicate that during the course of my examination-in- 14 chief I asked the Officer to mark a diagram in relation 15 to the pursuit of Maria Simon, it was the blow-up of 16 Highway 21 -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and Army Camp Road. 19 Can we please assign an exhibit number to that, too? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1259, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1259. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1259: Small map of close-up of P- 24 437B. Checkpoints map marked 25 by Witness Mr. Mark


1 Gransden. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This will be 4 a short break, just a short break. But Ms. Jones, do you 5 have something that you want to deal with before the 6 break? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: It's fine, Mr. 8 Commissioner, I was just speaking to Ms. Vella. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 10 Do you? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, that's fine. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's -- it's fine. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's okay? 15 Okay, we'll have a short break now. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 3:44 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 3:53 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed, please be seated. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 24 Alexander...? 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Thank you, Mr.


1 Commissioner. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 4 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Gransden. 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 7 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 8 and several members of the George family, including Sam 9 George who's sitting here beside me. 10 And I just have a couple of very quick 11 clarifications to do with you and then I'll be done. 12 The first one I want to do is look at your 13 -- the -- look at your notes regarding the incident that 14 occurred in the afternoon of September the 4th at the 15 north end of Matheson Drive. 16 Specifically what I'm looking at, is I'm 17 going to look at page 69. For Counsel reference this is 18 Exhibit P-494 doc -- Inquiry Document Number 2005413, and 19 it's at Tab 9 of the binder. 20 Do you have -- do you have that, sir? 21 A: If I can refer to my -- my police 22 notes -- 23 Q: I'm actually going to take you 24 exactly to the notes. There's only a couple of lines I 25 want to take you to.


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: If you look at the middle part of 3 page 64, and I'm just reading this and you can correct if 4 I read it incorrectly. It says: 5 "They want us off land. Claim it is 6 theirs." 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 69? Is 11 that right? 12 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I have 69 on mine. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, 69. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. As I read it, it's: 15 "They want us off. They claim it was 16 theirs." 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 19 Q: I'm reading that -- 20 A: And I believe that's the road. 21 Q: You think that's road? 22 A: I believe it -- I know I wrote it, 23 but I believe it's road. 24 Q: Okay. No that's -- 25 A: R-O-A-D.


1 Q: No, that's fine I just want to make 2 sure what that says. The reason why I'm asking that is, 3 you indicated in your evidence that -- that when this 4 incident occurred, that you said that their position was 5 that it was part of the Army Camp. 6 And what I'm going to suggest to you is 7 what they actually said was, they didn't say it was our 8 position is is that it was part of the Army Camp, but 9 they said it's theirs. Does that sound fair to you? 10 A: And -- and what I -- what I meant by 11 part of the Army Camp is that, to that point my 12 understanding was that the land issue, the claim was for 13 the Army Camp land -- lands, so to speak. 14 And -- and as such, the road allowance was 15 their part of -- or was included in part of the Army 16 Camp. 17 Q: So they were claiming it as it was 18 their land, at the end of the day. That -- that's what 19 you understood? 20 A: That -- that por -- that parcel of 21 the road allowance was included in the lands to the Army 22 Camp. 23 Q: And similarly, I'm going to suggest 24 that when you use the words, Their position was, was that 25 the parking lot and the Park -- that parking lot was part


1 of their Park, that similarly that they owned the parking 2 lot and the Park because it was part of their lands. And 3 that occurred on the -- 4 A: That was part and parcel of the same. 5 Q: Yeah. And that -- just for record, 6 that occurred on the evening of September the 5th, with 7 respect to the picnic tables. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The only other area I want to briefly 10 explore with you is you were also involved with the 11 removal of the picnic tables on the morning of September 12 6th, as I understand it, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now we've had a small video played 15 here which is part of Exhibit P-66, which appears to show 16 the area before the picnic tables were removed and the 17 area after the picnic tables were removed. 18 And all I want to ask you is do you have 19 any recollections of any video recordings that were taken 20 of that particular operation that morning? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: Do you have any recollection of any 23 other video tapes or any videos of any other OPP 24 operations during the -- during the September 4th to 7th 25 area, with respect to Ipperwash?


1 A: No. No, I don't -- I don't know of 2 any. I wasn't involved in any video taping. 3 Q: No, that's fair. I'm just trying to 4 probe your knowledge to determine if you were area of it, 5 but that's all you're aware of, is all I want to make -- 6 is to be clear of, that's all. 7 A: No, I'm not aware of any. 8 Q: Thank you, Constable Gransden. And 9 those are my questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 Mr. Neil, or Mr. Ross...? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 16 Q: Officer Gransden, my name is Anthony 17 Ross and I act for the residents at Aazhoodena. You 18 might have known that place as the Army Camp. 19 And there are a couple of things that I 20 want to ask you. Now I refer to Tab 2 of your binder. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Exhibit P-1249. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Exhibit P-1249. This appears to 25 cover the period from Saturday, July 29, 1995 to and


1 including Wednesday, August 23, 1995; am I correct? 2 A: Sorry, from the 29th of July, when is 3 the end date? 4 Q: August 23. 5 A: And that would be all of Tab 2. 6 Q: To the best of my understanding, it's 7 pages 40 to 49 of your notes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, in fairness, he 12 indicated that it was all the Ipperwash related note 13 recordings. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I accept that, no 15 difficulty. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. My original notes. 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: When I wasn't at Ipperwash 19 I was doing regular patrol duties in Chatham and so 20 incidents that I was involved in, in Chatham -- 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 23 Q: I'm not interested in that. 24 A: -- would be in my police notes. 25 Q: I'm not interested in that. But the


1 exhibit -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: It covers your involvement at 4 Ipperwash between Saturday 29th of July 1995 and 5 Wednesday August 23rd, 1995; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that 8 during that time there was not a high level of tension 9 between the police and the people occupying the camp? 10 A: I didn't -- I didn't feel any, no, 11 sir. 12 Q: And even when they were down on the 13 beach, there still was not a high level of tension 14 between the two (2) groups? 15 A: I don't believe I had any interaction 16 with -- any negative interaction with anyone until later 17 on. 18 Q: So that any, as you put it, negative 19 interaction would have taken place, really, in the month 20 of September? 21 And you can refer to Tab 9, which picks up 22 on Friday September the 5th. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 1st. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS:


1 Q: September the 1st, sorry. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Yes, not until September. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: Not until September. 8 Q: Yeah, okay, fine. And under Tab 9 number 9, it starts on September the 1st; am I correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. And just tell me, before you 12 got involved in September, how well did you know Mark 13 Wright? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I believe he was a detective sergeant 18 in Lambton County. 19 Q: Yeah, that might be true, but did you 20 ever work with him before then? 21 A: We may have had ERT related details 22 with the -- the Lambton County crime unit. 23 Q: So I'm taking it from your answer 24 that you can't tell me that -- whether or not you worked 25 with him?


1 A: Well, I'm trying to answer, sir. 2 Q: Okay, go ahead. 3 A: As part of our ERT mandate, a 4 requirement is to do -- we also assist in evidence 5 searches for serious crimes for different counties for 6 different crime units, and as such, I may have worked 7 along with Sergeant Mark Wright who was -- would be the 8 head of the -- at that time, the head of the Lambton 9 County crime unit. 10 I don't -- I don't recall any specific 11 detail that I would work with Sergeant Wright at that 12 time. 13 Q: You say you may have worked with him. 14 I under -- am I to understand also that you just may not 15 have worked with him, and so the answer is that you're 16 not -- you can't remember, you're not sure? 17 A: I don't have any specific dates or 18 incidents, although the -- I would say the percentage is 19 high that I probably did work with him. 20 Q: I see. And that's the best answer 21 you can give me to that question? 22 A: Well I can't give you a specific 23 answer, sir? 24 Q: I see. So if I was to take it that 25 you don't know whether you worked him, would that be more


1 correct? 2 A: Well, I think I said that the 3 percentage was higher that I -- the chances were higher 4 that I did work with him, than not. 5 Q: I see, okay, thank you. Now, you 6 have indicated to the Commission that when you were down 7 at the Park area, on September the 2nd, that your concern 8 was that people were drinking beer and you would really 9 have preferred them to put the beer out of sight. 10 A: That was my -- my first concern, yes. 11 Q: Yeah. Now, I understand that down at 12 the end of Army Camp Road there are some cottages; is 13 this your recollection? 14 A: There are cottages -- if I can refer 15 to this, in this area there's cottages in the -- in front 16 of this -- 17 Q: That is -- 18 A: -- and further this way. 19 Q: Yeah. The cottages that you 20 identified at the extension of Army Camp Road. 21 Now, what is separating them from the 22 parking lot is just a chain link fence am I correct, or 23 open fence? 24 A: I -- I don't know. 25 Q: Oh, you didn't check on that? You


1 didn't look at that? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest to you, 4 sir, that as you go down Army Camp Road there are some 5 cottages on your left, then there's the sandy parking 6 lot, and then there's what was the Provincial Park. 7 Is that consistent with your recollection? 8 A: That there's cottages on -- the 9 cottages are always on -- on the left. 10 Q: Yes, then there's the parking lot, 11 the sandy parking lot. 12 A: And which way are we -- which way are 13 we looking at this then? 14 Q: Looking east, looking east. 15 A: Towards the lake or -- 16 Q: No, sir, Army Camp Road runs from 17 south to north towards the lake. 18 A: Okay -- 19 Q: So if you're on the west side of Army 20 Camp Road and you're at the cottages as you look east the 21 first thing would be the sandy parking lot; do you agree 22 with that? 23 A: The first that you would see would be 24 the sandy parking lot, yes. 25 Q: And then just beyond that there's the


1 Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes. So the cottages on the west 4 side of the parking lot, if people were drinking beer 5 there on their own cottage lots would you got here and 6 ask them to put the beer away? 7 A: No, because that would be their 8 property and by statute they're allowed to drink on their 9 own property. 10 Q: I see. So if people are seeing 11 people drinking beer on one side of the Park is different 12 to seeing them drink it on the other side of the Park; am 13 I correct? 14 A: Well, if my recollection is correct 15 the cottages aren't right on the beach. Their property 16 may extend that far but the residence itself is closer to 17 the -- the road than it is to the wat -- to the 18 shoreline. 19 Q: Sure. Thank you. I think I got 20 enough for that answer. 21 So when you were down there on the 2nd, as 22 you indicate, it was for two (2) reasons, number 1 23 because there was a vehicle that was stuck and the other 24 one was because there was beer being consumed? 25 A: We were on patrol and patrolled


1 Matheson Drive so we -- we happened upon the vehicle that 2 was stuck. 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: We weren't down there specifically 5 for that, but that's what we came upon. 6 Q: Good enough by me. And while you 7 were observing the activities around the stuck vehicle is 8 when you saw the beer? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Okay. Now, the -- you -- you under - 11 - I understand that at that time there was a 12 confrontation with Dudley George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And as I recall your evidence there 15 was lots of profanity used? 16 A: Yes, there was. 17 Q: And I take it, sir, that you 18 classified that as inappropriate? 19 A: I don't think that was the proper 20 place to be using a lot of profanity. 21 Q: Sure, but it was inappropriate 22 correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes, and really an inappropriate way 25 for Dudley George to have been speaking to a police


1 officer; am I correct? 2 A: I've had several people use profanity 3 on -- 4 Q: No, I'm not talking about several 5 people, sir. I -- you know, listen to me. I'm speaking 6 about Dudley George. You in your evidence indicated that 7 there was confrontation with Dudley George; it appears on 8 page 67 of your notes. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And in your evidence you said lots of 11 profanity used. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And I'm suggest -- I asked you about 14 it and you said so far, inappropriate. And I'm taking it 15 a step further. Would you agree with me, or is it your 16 view that that's an inappropriate way to address a police 17 officer? 18 A: I don't take it as a personal offence 19 necessarily. 20 Q: Offense or otherwise? But then I'll 21 put it to you another way. 22 Would you agree with me then that it's 23 quite appropriate to address a police officer like that? 24 A: I don't think necessarily it's 25 appropriate for generally to speak to other people that


1 way. Given circumstances, there are certain times when 2 people do discuss matters like that and one on the beach 3 with the public in close earshot with children there I 4 didn't believe was -- would be an appropriate time. 5 Q: Well, you didn't mention anything 6 about the children. Are you saying now that when you 7 were speaking to Dudley George and having that 8 confrontation that children were around? 9 A: I believe -- I -- I can't 10 specifically say that there were children close by, but 11 the photographs that were introduced showing that 12 confrontation show a number of civilians and -- and 13 people on the beach in close proximity to where the -- 14 the car was stuck. 15 Q: I see. And in spite of all of this 16 your evidence was that, up to the end of that day of -- 17 up to September the 3rd, that the -- the risk of 18 confrontation was still quite low? Let me just remind 19 you -- 20 A: I -- I would say that it -- that it 21 was higher than it was previous in August, due to the 22 fact I'd had a verbal incident with Dudley that day on 23 the beach. Previous to that I had no interaction -- 24 really any close interaction with any of the Native 25 occupiers.


1 Q: My -- my notes of your evidence to 2 Ms. Vella was that you spoke about the only encounter 3 being on the beach. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then she went to -- to ask you 6 about the risk level. And I put in quotes your answer 7 was "Was not very high." 8 And I'm saying to you that up to and 9 including the 3rd of September there was a manageable 10 risk situation. It was not very high. 11 A: I would say yes it was manageable. 12 Q: Okay, fine. And then there was the 13 activities on the 4th of September. And you indicated 14 that there was a dispute about a section of Matheson 15 Drive and that the occupiers took the position that it 16 was their land, and your evidence was "Our position is 17 that it is the Township property." Now -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- you recall that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Which section of Matheson 22 Drive did you classify as the Township property, just for 23 clarity? 24 A: My understanding was that the -- the 25 whole section of Matheson Drive was Township property.


1 Q: The -- the full section? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I see. And -- 4 A: Right -- right to the waterline. 5 Q: Right to the waterline. So that's 6 going east below the Camp and then turning to the left? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I see. Now -- and that was your 9 position that that land was the Township property? 10 A: That was my understanding. 11 Q: But I thought a minute ago you told 12 Mr. Alexander that the road -- the road -- road allowance 13 was part of the Camp. 14 A: No, the -- that was their -- that was 15 the issue. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: The issue on the -- on the -- the 18 position of the -- the people in the Army Camp, or the 19 Natives, that that was all part and parcel of -- of that 20 one land claim. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: Or that -- that it was part and 23 parcel to the Army Camp. That was their position. 24 Q: So you under -- so you understood 25 that there was a dispute then?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: But then why would you take the 3 position and say, "Our position is that it is the 4 Township property"? 5 Were you trying to decide the dispute at 6 that point? 7 A: If we didn't have an opposite 8 position on it then there wouldn't be a dispute. 9 Q: Well, I don't understand your answer 10 and -- 11 A: Well I don't understand -- I'm sorry 12 I don't understand the question then. If you can 13 rephrase. 14 Q: Okay, sorry. You just agreed with me 15 that there was a dispute as far as the ownership was 16 concerned. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And I'm saying to you, was it 19 a police decision to determine the dispute? 20 A: We were taking the position that the 21 road was property of the Township. I was instructed that 22 it was the property of the Township. 23 Q: So as far as you're concerned, the 24 police took a side and they took the side of the 25 Township?


1 A: I was instructed that it belonged to 2 the Township. And -- and I had -- 3 Q: That's as close as you're going to 4 come to my -- to answer my question, right? I'll move 5 on. 6 Now, Ms. McAleer, on behalf of the 7 Premier, spoke to you about the conduct of the -- the 8 people who occupied the Park and she asked you when they 9 were throwing flares, were you conscious of anybody 10 saying to them, Stop throwing the flares. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you said no. Now she also asked 14 you about the cruiser and when the -- the stick was used 15 to break the glass of the cruiser, if anybody suggested 16 that that be stopped and you said no, correct? 17 A: Yes. Correct. 18 Q: Now as far as your policing is 19 concerned, were you involved in any discussions about 20 what happened to Cecil Bernard George when he was almost 21 beaten to a pulp and that nobody even identified it much 22 less that said no? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 24 a -- 25 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I


1 object to the question -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's a 3 proper objection. Ask the question in a proper manner. 4 Ask the question, you don't have to editorialize, ask the 5 question, Mr. -- 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 8 Q: Being a part of what happened down at 9 Ipperwash on the 6th of September, 1995, were you party 10 to any discussion at all as to the beating that Gerald 11 George took at the hands of the OPP. 12 Sorry, Cecil Bernard George took at the 13 hands of -- 14 A: I wasn't involved -- I wasn't 15 involved in the CMU operation at all. 16 Q: I understand that, sir. I understand 17 that. 18 I'm asking you, were you party to any 19 discussion whatsoever about what happened to Cecil 20 Bernard George? 21 A: I understood that he was arrested. 22 Q: Arrested. And that's all you 23 understood? 24 A: I wasn't involved in that operation, 25 sir.


1 Q: I understand that, sir. You said 2 that before. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So that's all you understood, that he 5 was arrested; am I correct? 6 A: I can't comment on that, I wasn't 7 there. 8 Q: Sir, I'm not asking you to tell me 9 what you know from being there. I'm asking you about any 10 discussion, were you involved in any discussion at any 11 time as to what happened to him? Yes or no? 12 A: No, I was not. 13 Q: I see. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, I found it curious that, in your 18 notes, on pages 69 and 70, there was no mention of the 19 flares that were being thrown. 20 Is there a reason why you would have 21 excluded that? 22 A: At the time that I made my notes, I - 23 - I guess I didn't find it worthy of putting in my 24 notebook. 25 Q: I see.


1 A: Because I wasn't directly struck by 2 any of them. 3 Q: I see. 4 A: I didn't find it a threat to myself. 5 Q: Okay. And do you know of anybody who 6 was struck by any of these flares? 7 A: I have heard that someone was struck. 8 Q: You've heard that. And do you know 9 who that person is who was struck? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: I see. And you also, in your notes, 12 indicated that the window of the cruiser was shattered, 13 but you did not mention the dent in the trunk. 14 Is there a reason why you didn't mention 15 that? 16 A: The main -- the main thing that got 17 my focus was that the window shattered out. 18 Q: I see. And when did you first 19 mention the dent in the trunk apart from at your evidence 20 here? 21 A: Did I first mention it? 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Here, in my evidence here. 24 Q: Oh, yes, I see. Now, what I also 25 find interesting, sir, is that on the night -- on your


1 shift, on the 4th of September, around -- be -- around 2 1:00 a.m., that's going into the 5th of September, you 3 were down in the TOC area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So what they now understand is that 6 the Park is occupied late on the 4th and by the early 7 morning of the 5th, the tactical operations centre is 8 being established. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: I see. And at that time, the threat 11 level was still quite low, the risk was still quite low? 12 A: I believe it was escalating. I 13 wouldn't characterize it as low as it was -- 14 Q: On the 3rd? 15 A: -- from before. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Now, that the, you know, the window 18 had been shattered since then, so things had escalated. 19 Q: So you shatter the window of a 20 cruiser and that assists in triggering the establishment 21 of the tactical operations centre? 22 A: Well, I believe things were 23 escalating. 24 Q: I see. Now, with things escalating, 25 I understand that there was a substantial amount of


1 surveillance taking place; is this your understanding 2 also? 3 A: I believe there was surveillance -- 4 Q: There was -- 5 A: -- being conducted. 6 Q: -- aerial surveillance, there was 7 helicopters and other planes? Or just helicopters? 8 A: There was a helicopter. 9 Q: Yeah. And this helicopter would have 10 been around and available, but was it around on the 3rd 11 and the 4th? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, I'm asking him. 14 He can answer. Excuse me. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: To your knowledge, was the helicopter 18 available and around on the 3rd of September? 19 A: I -- I don't know. 20 Q: Was it around on the 4th of 21 September, Labour Day? 22 A: I don't know, sir. 23 Q: Was it around on the 5th of 24 September, the Tuesday? 25 A: I don't know.


1 Q: But you know it was around? 2 A: I did see the helicopter fly one (1) 3 day, and I don't know about its availability other than 4 that. 5 Q: Where were you when you saw that 6 helicopter flying? Were you down in the Ipperwash area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Was it before the picnic tables were 9 removed, or after? 10 A: It was being flown while we were 11 moving the picnic tables; the -- when we removed the 12 picnic tables. 13 Q: Thank you. Now, if it was flown, 14 were -- are you aware that photographs were taken at that 15 time? It's a surveillance helicopter, right? 16 A: I -- I don't know if there was 17 photographs being taken from the helicopter. 18 Q: So -- 19 A: The helicopter wasn't anything that I 20 was associated to. 21 Q: So you -- you and I know that it was 22 a surveillance helicopter, don't we? 23 A: I don't know what -- it was an 24 overview of the operation. 25 Q: An overview --


1 A: Whether they -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: -- whether they were taking 4 photographs, I wasn't in the helicopter -- 5 Q: They were -- 6 A: -- and I wasn't privy to anything to 7 do with the helicopter. 8 Q: I see. 9 A: I'm standing on the ground and I saw 10 it flying. 11 Q: I see. So that's all? 12 A: That's all. 13 Q: Okay. And again, on page 71 of your 14 notes, around the area where you're speaking about the 15 question of mischief, you're saying that again there was 16 yelling and profanity, just around the time when somebody 17 threw sand and gravel in your direction? 18 A: In my face, yes, sir. 19 Q: In your face, yeah. Why did you 20 point out the distinction between me saying, Throwing 21 sand and gravel in your direction, and, In your face? 22 Why? 23 A: The distinction would be is that I 24 was assaulted by the throwing of the sand and gravel in 25 my face.


1 Q: I sort of thought so. But when you 2 had your gun pointed at Marcia, you tell us that it was 3 pointed in the direction of the phone booth. It wasn't 4 in the direction of the phone booth, it was pointed at 5 Marcia Simon, wasn't it? 6 A: At that time it was. 7 Q: Yeah. And you said that there was 8 this yelling and profanity around the time that sand was 9 thrown in your face, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I guess this yelling and 12 profanity, again, is really inconsistent with your 13 understanding of how people should behave to police 14 officers, correct? 15 A: Well there's quite a wide range of 16 the way people deal with police officers, and there's -- 17 there's very emotional issues and -- and in cases like 18 that it's not uncommon for someone to use profanity to -- 19 to make their point, or test their point -- 20 Q: In a case like what? 21 A: Well something that -- that is very 22 close to them and something that they feel strongly for. 23 It's not uncommon for someone to use profanity to -- to 24 exercise their -- their position or to -- 25 Q: So you understood that they were


1 exercising their position, as demonstrated by their level 2 of profanity; am I correct? 3 A: I wouldn't say the level of profanity 4 but it's some -- somewhat the use of profanity. 5 Q: So really then you understood that 6 this was something important to these people? 7 A: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And following the unfortunate 12 incident which resulted in the shooting death of Dudley 13 George, when you and Dougan and Lorch and Bell were in 14 the process -- or at Northville, and in the process of 15 making your arrest of Marcia Simon, you recognized then 16 that it was a First Nations lady that you were dealing 17 with; am I correct? 18 A: Well at some point we did determine 19 it was a -- a woman. 20 Q: Well I'm going to back up; I'm going 21 to help you. 22 The car came out of the camp, didn't it? 23 A: Yes, it did. 24 Q: And you either knew, or strongly 25 suspected, that there would be First Nations occupants;


1 am I correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And when the car pulled in at 4 Northville, and you got a chance to see the person in the 5 phone booth, you knew it was a First Nations lady, didn't 6 you? 7 A: I determined that it was, yes. 8 Q: Oh yeah. And you also recognized 9 that the other individual in the car was an older First 10 Nations lady. 11 A: Eventually, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And when you found -- I -- I 13 take it that you determined quite quickly that these 14 people were trying to phone an ambulance? 15 A: I did -- I was informed that they 16 tried to call an ambulance, but I don't recall when that 17 information came to -- came to me. 18 Q: Was it before -- as a matter of fact, 19 after the arrest, how did Marcia Simon get down to the 20 Forest Detachment? 21 A: We transported her from Northville, 22 we met up with the prisoner van, she was transferred to 23 the prisoner van then -- then driven to Forrest. 24 Q: What about her mother, Melva George? 25 How was she transported?


1 A: Her mother was in the back of our 2 police car along with Ms. Simon. When Ms. Simon was 3 transferred to the paddy wagon to go to Forest, her 4 mother remained in the back of our cruiser and we drove 5 her home to her home in Kettle Point. 6 Q: So by that time you really understood 7 that what they were doing was trying to phone an 8 ambulance; even after the fact? 9 A: I can't say when I -- I don't know 10 when I learned that information. 11 Q: I see. Now finally, Officer 12 Gransden, I'm going to ask you to look at -- look under 13 Tab 1 in that black book you have, please. 14 Under courses, the fourth bullet, Native 15 Awareness Training in 1996. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that 18 your conduct in 1995, particularly first part of 19 September, was absolutely consistent with -- with the 20 training that you were receiving on that course in 1996? 21 A: Following that course, I did have a 22 better understanding of some Native issues. 23 Q: I appreciate that. But I'm talking 24 about your conduct. You see in 1995, we've seen what 25 you've done around the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th


1 of September, and you know what you did. 2 And I'm asking you whether or not your 3 conduct in early September was consistent with the kind 4 of training or what you were exposed to in that Native 5 Awareness course? 6 A: I don't know if I can -- I can 7 correlate the two (2) together. I see them as -- I seem 8 them as -- 9 Q: That's good enough. Thank you very 10 much. Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 12 Mr. Ross. 13 I think Mr. George? No questions? That's 14 fine. 15 Yes, Mr. -- 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: A little presumptuous on 17 my part. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I wasn't 19 sure if Mr. George had any questions. 20 MR. JULIAN ROY: But I knew because it's 21 4:30, it must be my turn. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It must be 23 time for Mr. Roy. 24 MR. JULIAN ROY: So I just -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's at the


1 end of the day and everybody's tired, it must be time for 2 Mr. Ross. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: It's a Pavlovian 4 response. It's a Pavlovian response, I see the clock, 5 it's 4:30 and I just raced to the microphone. 6 Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 afternoon. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 11 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 12 A: Good afternoon. 13 Q: My name is Julian Roy and I'm one of 14 the counsel for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto. All 15 right? And what I want to focus on is at Tab 9 of your 16 documents, which is Exhibit P-494. 17 And where I want to start is your notes at 18 -- at page 64, which is the first page under that tab. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it reflects your memo book 21 entries commencing September 1st, 1995, all right? 22 A: That is correct. 23 Q: And September -- your entry right 24 under September 1st, 1995 reflects that you were on an 25 emergency response team detail; is that correct?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there's a reference to Sergeant 3 Korosec right underneath that; do you see that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the reference to Sergeant Korosec 6 is, I take it, to reflect that you received some sort 7 briefing from him; is that right? 8 A: The reference there -- I have it 9 designated as an IC which is in-charge. 10 Q: All right. And it would be 11 customary, when you go on shift, that the officers 12 assemble under the officer who's in charge and they 13 receive some sort of briefing or introduction as to what 14 their duties are to be that day, correct? 15 A: On occasion in the OPP that doesn't 16 occur. We're not a large municipal force -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- where we all meet in one (1) spot. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: On this specific day, I don't have 21 any notation that we were -- we were briefed. 22 Q: Okay. And what was your 23 understanding as to what your duties were to be, on 24 September 1st? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I can just -- for clarity, I can - 4 - I can see from your notes what, ultimately, you -- some 5 of your activities were, but I'm just trying to 6 understand what your instructions were in terms of what 7 you were supposed to do that day. 8 A: I was just trying to set up the time 9 frame a little bit. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: On the 1st of September, I don't 12 think -- I don't believe our mandate had changed anything 13 since the 28th or 29th of July. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: We were doing general policing 16 patrols, assisting the local Detachment, having a police 17 presence in the area. 18 Q: All right. So I take it from that, 19 you didn't receive any special or out of the ordinary 20 instructions as to how you were to be executing your 21 patrol duties that day; is that right? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. And your understanding 24 was you were to proceed with your patrol duties in the 25 way that your ordinarily do them, right?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And it was your understanding that 3 other officers who were also on patrol duty were to be 4 executing their duties in that same fashion; is that 5 correct? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And, by the way, September 1st, as I 8 understand it, was the Labour Day -- the beginning of the 9 Labour Day weekend. 10 Am I right in saying that a little more 11 traffic than normal during that period of time? 12 A: Being that it's a cottage area and a 13 bit of a vacation area, yes, there would be increased 14 traffic. 15 Q: Okay. And that stands to reason, but 16 it's also consistent with your recollection; is that 17 right? 18 A: I actually don't have any 19 recollection of the increased traffic. 20 Q: Okay. And I want to take you to your 21 entry at 21:45. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Which is still on the page 64. And 24 21:45 reflects a stop check vehicle; do you see that? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: And it's on Army Camp Road; is that 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I don't see from your notes, and 5 there's about four (4) or five (5) lines of notes 6 following that reflection of a stop check on a vehicle, 7 I don't see any specific Highway Traffic Act concern 8 articulated by you in relation to that stop; am I right? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you don't have a recollection of 11 having any sort of Highway Traffic Act concern in 12 relation to that vehicle stop, do you? 13 A: I don't have anything noted. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: There was no charges laid or anything 16 to that effect. 17 Q: Okay. And I don't see any 18 articulation in your notes as to any criminal suspicion 19 that you might have had in connection with that vehicle; 20 is that correct? 21 A: The driver of the vehicle was checked 22 on CPIC, the Canadian Police Information Computer, and -- 23 Q: That's after the stop, correct? 24 A: Part and parcel to. During the stop. 25 Q: All right. But in terms of the


1 decision to stop the vehicle, there's no articulation in 2 your notes that would be the basis of any criminal 3 suspicion, is there? 4 A: No, there isn't. 5 Q: Okay. But nevertheless, you proceed 6 to do a CPIC search on that person; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that is done in the course of 9 inquiring as to whether or not there are criminal charges 10 or criminal activity in relation to that person; is that 11 correct? 12 A: Any criminal activity, past criminal 13 activity, Highway Traffic Act issues that -- suspended 14 driver, for example, would appear on that. 15 Q: Okay. And when you check CPIC, you 16 have negative results; is that correct? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you also asked for the 19 identification of a female Native person who's a 20 passenger, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And given that that's a passenger, 23 that's clearly not related to Highway Traffic Act 24 concerns, is it? 25 A: Well, it's a request if -- if she


1 would provide her name, but she's under no -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: -- obligation to provide her name. 4 Q: I beg your pardon? 5 A: She's under no obligation to have to 6 give me her name. 7 Q: Yes. But you're -- what motivated 8 you to ask for her name, it wasn't related to Highway 9 Traffic Act concerns, was it? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No. And the person in the -- I'm 12 right in reading that as female Native, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the person refused, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And in terms of your 17 perception, what was your understanding -- or did you 18 have any impression as to -- as to her attitude in terms 19 of refusing to provide her name? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm trying 21 to follow the relevance of this line of questioning to 22 Ipperwash. In his notes, I'm trying to -- 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to follow 25 the relevance. Will you help me?


1 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes, I can. It's -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 3 going to get to it? I mean -- 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: I am. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should I be 6 patient? 7 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I would request 8 that, yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 10 to connect it to something -- 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, I prefer to list 12 some more evidence along this lines -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- and I think we'll all 15 be in a better position to -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 17 If you're going to get to something -- 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- make submissions 19 about it -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then I'll 21 wait, but if you're -- 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I wouldn't be 25 asking the questions if I didn't think --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- I would be -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 4 that. 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- getting something -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 7 that especially at this time of day, so carry on. 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, I -- I don't -- 9 from my point of view, I don't change my standard of what 10 I feel is relevant in terms of asking questions depending 11 on the time of day. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 13 fair. I'm sorry. 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: I just try to -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I shouldn't 16 have said that, but as long it's -- 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm not -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- relevant 19 you can ask it at any time. Carry on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 22 Q: Thank you. Now, the -- the driver of 23 the vehicle was a First Nations person, correct? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: I believe so. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I have no notation to -- to indicate 4 anything like that, but I believe so. 5 Q: All right. If we can go to your 6 second vehicle stopped for that day, it's reflected at 7 your entry at 21:57 on page 64? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That reflects a vehicle stop at 10 Highway 7 and -- and Highway 21; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you don't have anything in your 13 notes in connection with that vehicle stop to reflect any 14 Highway Traffic Act concerns you had about that vehicle. 15 A: No, I -- no, I don't. 16 Q: No. And you don't have any 17 articulated concerns about criminal activity in relation 18 to that vehicle either, do you? 19 A: Just similar to the -- the previous 20 stop where the driver was checked on the police 21 computer -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- or in -- 24 Q: So there's another -- a CPIC inquiry 25 made in connection with that driver, correct?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And that person's also a First 3 Nations person correct? 4 A: I would believe so, their address was 5 listed as Kettle Point. 6 Q: All right. If you could turn, 7 please, to September 2nd. And -- and before we move on, 8 those are the only two (2) vehicle checks that you have 9 reflected for September 1st, 1995, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: If you go to September 2nd, 1995, and 12 that's on page 66 of your notes -- well, actually on 65 13 at the bottom and onto 66 there's another reflection of 14 you reporting for ERT detail; do you see that? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And there's another reflection that - 17 - that Sergeant Korosec is in charge, correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And your duties, as you understood 20 them, were the same as for the previous day, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, at 12:39 on September 2nd 23 there's another reflection of a stop check on a vehicle, 24 right? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And that's also on Highway 21, 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And again, there's no reflection of 5 any articulated Highway Traffic Act concern in relation 6 to that vehicle? 7 A: No, there is not. 8 Q: And there's no concern in your notes 9 expressed concerning criminal activity in relation to 10 that vehicle, correct? 11 A: Well there was a notation that came 12 back on the CPIC check. 13 Q: Okay. But in terms of why you were 14 motivated to make the stop, you had no concern in terms 15 of your observations of the vehicle in relation to 16 criminal activity, correct? 17 A: Correct. Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And that's also a First 19 Nations person, correct? 20 A: Yes. They also have an address 21 listed in Kettle Point. 22 Q: Yes. And beyond that, you also 23 obtained the identity of the passenger of that vehicle, 24 correct? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And obviously, given it's a 2 passenger, not a driver, this isn't -- this inquiry is 3 not related to Highway Traffic Act concerns, is it? 4 A: No, it's not. 5 Q: No. And the passenger, she's a First 6 Nations person also? 7 A: Possibly. 8 Q: Okay. If we could go to page 67, 9 please, of your notes, because we have another vehicle 10 stopped, about a half an hour later, on Army Camp Road 11 this time; do you see that? It's at 13:10 -- 12 A: Oh. 13 Q: -- on page 6 -- 67. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And in connection with this vehicle 18 stopped, there is no articulated concern on highway 19 traffic act grounds for why this vehicle is stopped, 20 correct? 21 A: No, there's not. 22 Q: And there's no articulated concern on 23 criminal suspicion grounds for why this vehicle is 24 stopped, correct? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And it's another First Nations 2 person, correct? 3 A: Their address is listed at Kettle 4 Point. 5 Q: Yes. Now, right above that entry 6 there is a reflection -- right above the entry at 13:10 7 there's a reference to Sergeant Korosec advising you that 8 tensions are high; do you see that? 9 A: I reported to Sergeant Korosec that, 10 and that's in relation to the previous incident down on 11 Matheson Drive. 12 Q: And the tensions that you were 13 talking about were between First Nations people and 14 police officers; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: If we could go to the following page, 17 September -- your notes on September 3rd start on page 18 67. And you report for the same duties, ERT Detail; do 19 you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And again, there's a reference to 22 Sergeant Korosec being in charge, right? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And you don't have any notation 25 regarding any modification of your duties or


1 instructions? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: So you're still on the ordinary 4 patrol duties; is that right? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And if you go to the following page, 7 page 68, please. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: There's a -- near the top of the 10 page, on page 68, there's a reference to a stop check on 11 a vehicle; do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And again, there's no articulated 14 highway traffic act concern in your notebook, right? 15 A: No, there's not. 16 Q: And there's no concern articulated on 17 criminal grounds in connection with that vehicle stopped, 18 correct? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And you also request the 21 identification for the two (2) male passengers; is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that request is not related to 25 highway traffic act concerns, is it?


1 A: No, it's not. 2 Q: And your notation says that these two 3 (2) individuals failed to identify themselves; do you see 4 that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you've conceded earlier that 7 they're not under any obligation to provide their 8 identification, are they? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Okay. And the individual -- the 11 driver of this vehicle is an aboriginal person, correct? 12 A: I assume so. 13 Q: Yes. All right. Now in terms of -- 14 I've looked at these notes carefully but I haven't seen 15 any other vehicle stops other than the ones that I've 16 taken you through for September 1st through 3rd; am I 17 right about that? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Yeah. And I'm going to suggest to 20 you that there's a bit of a pattern in terms of these 21 vehicle stops. First of all, they're all First Nations 22 persons, correct? 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: Yeah. And in all of these cases 25 there's no articulated highway traffic act concerns in


1 your notebook, correct? 2 A: I didn't articulate anything in my 3 notes, no. 4 Q: And you don't recall anything now, 5 right? 6 A: No, I don't recall now. 7 Q: And you don't have any reasonable 8 suspicion to -- with respect to criminal activity in 9 respect of any of those stops, correct? 10 A: I -- I don't have anything noted like 11 that. 12 Q: Okay. And in terms of how you were 13 deciding to make vehicle stops, did you feel that you 14 were taking some kind of unique approach to how you were 15 doing that, or was this consistent with what you 16 understood from the rest of the officers? 17 A: I don't think -- I don't think the -- 18 the vehicle stops were -- were something I would do on 19 regular patrol anywhere I -- I worked. I was consistent 20 with the same way I would -- I would be in Chatham or in 21 Huron County, that I work now. 22 Q: Okay. And -- and your partner that 23 day was who? 24 A: Which day? 25 Q: Beg your pardon?


1 A: Which day -- 2 Q: On -- 3 A: -- are you referring to? 4 Q: -- on all those three (3) days. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Can we -- and that would be from 9 when, again? 10 Q: September 1st through the 3rd. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: September 1st was Constable Dougan. 15 September 2nd would be again Constable Dougan. 3rd again 16 was Dougan. 17 Q: All right. Did you recall any debate 18 or discussion with Constable Dougan as to why you were 19 stopping these particular vehicles? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And let me ask you this. Were you 22 given any instruction that you were to target First 23 Nations people for vehicle stops? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you have an understanding that


1 you were to target First Nations persons for vehicle 2 stops? 3 A: No. 4 Q: So, in terms of -- of why these 5 individuals were selected, that was your choice, is that 6 correct? 7 A: There may be a reason under the 8 Highway Traffic that I don't have noted and I certainly 9 don't have any memory of the reason why I stopped those 10 vehicles at the side of the road. 11 Certainly, under a statute, I can stop and 12 check vehicles to ascertain the driver's licence of the 13 person driving that vehicle and the status of their 14 insurance on their vehicles. 15 Q: Yes. And that's when you have a 16 Highway Traffic Act concern about that vehicle, correct? 17 A: Well, the stop could generate a -- an 18 incident that would be a Highway Traffic Act offence or 19 an insurance related offence. 20 Q: But you know you're not allowed to 21 use that power to target any particular group, is that 22 correct? 23 A: I'm not -- I wasn't using it to 24 target any group. 25 Q: Okay. But you know that you're not


1 allowed to do that, right? 2 A: You shouldn't do that. 3 Q: Okay. And up 'til this point, at the 4 time that -- as of September 3rd, 1995, had you had any 5 training with respect to systemic racism? 6 A: Previous to this time, no I did not. 7 Q: Okay. So you had no understanding 8 about the issue of racial profiling in terms of vehicle 9 stops? 10 A: I hadn't had a course on anything to 11 deal with that. 12 Q: Have you had since? 13 A: I believe there was a portion of in- 14 service training within the OPP that dealt with that. 15 Q: Did you have any appreciation -- I 16 took you to the -- your notation about tensions between 17 police and First Nations people. 18 Did you have any appreciation of -- as to 19 whether or not vehicle stops conducted in this fashion 20 might contribute to those tensions that you gave evidence 21 about? 22 A: What I based that on was the 23 interaction I had with Dudley George on the beach, and it 24 wasn't in relation to a --a traffic stop. 25 Q: All right. But are you not


1 concerned, in terms of seeing these vehicle stops that it 2 might contribute to a perception among First Nations 3 people that they're being targeted? 4 A: I don't know that -- I don't know if 5 there was a perception of that. 6 Q: That wasn't a concern to you as you 7 were executing your duties, correct? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Now, is it a concern to you now as a 10 result of anything you've learned since this incident? 11 A: Of these traffic stops that I 12 conducted? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: No. 15 Q: About how you conduct your authority 16 to conduct traffic stops. 17 Are you concerned about community 18 perceptions in terms of how that power is used? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. I want to ask you about -- 24 move on to another area, and that's -- let me ask you if 25 you were staying at the Pinery during the period that you


1 were assigned to this incident. 2 A: The Pinery bunkhouse? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Pinery Park? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And you would have been 8 living in very close quarters with many other officers, 9 correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the ERT team that you form a part 12 of, it's a close knit group is it not? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Teamwork is essential for that group 15 to operate properly; is that correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Now, you told me a little bit about 18 the tensions. And the tensions that you've described are 19 between the police and First Nations people, is that 20 correct? 21 A: That's what I noted. 22 Q: Yes. And in that type of scenario, 23 there's a real risk that -- that an 'us' versus 'them' 24 mentality starts to develop; is that correct? 25 A: I suppose it could.


1 Q: Yes. And in times of -- of high 2 tension like you've described, people tend to blow off 3 steam, is that correct? 4 A: No, I don't believe that the high 5 tension really came in until -- until later on in the 6 operation. 7 Q: Okay. That's fine. 8 A: The early phases it wasn't -- it 9 wasn't as tense. 10 Q: Yes. But it certainly got more tense 11 as the incident progressed, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And in times of tension, people might 14 say and do things differently than they might ordinarily 15 do, is that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you observed that in terms of the 18 officers that you were living in close quarters with at 19 the Pinery and spending a lot of time with in terms of 20 this incident, correct? 21 A: I wouldn't say that, no. 22 Q: Okay. I want to give some general 23 examples of utterances that we've heard evidence about or 24 will be hearing evidence about in terms of utterances 25 concerning First Nations people and I want to ask you by


1 way of general example without taking you to any 2 documents, whether or not you heard any sentiments 3 expressed in your presence that are similar? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At the 5 Pinery or where, anywhere particular? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: In and around the time 7 of the Ipperwash incident from OPP officers. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It depends 9 on how you ask the ques -- do you have an objection. He 10 hasn't asked a specific question. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, I -- I -- I'm 12 interested to hear this. This strikes me as being 13 remarkably familiar territory to what's been gone -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- down on numerous 16 occasions and which, Mr. Commissioner, you have said this 17 isn't relevant. If there are particular officers -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 19 haven't quite gone that -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that are giving 21 evidence or anyone giving evidence at this Inquiry. And 22 Mr. Roy wants to put to them something that they say, of 23 course he has every right to do that. 24 But to start putting other -- other 25 people's versions, comments that this witness may not


1 have heard in -- and then saying is this, have you heard 2 somebody else say this? 3 I mean we can go on a long time in a long 4 way with this and Mr. Commissioner, it's not relevant and 5 it's not helpful to you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 7 difficult time with it. 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: I have -- I can make 9 lengthy submissions on this point if you want me to do 10 that. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, not 12 right now. Obviously this is the same point as you 13 raised the other day. 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: It's not because I -- I 15 was well. I'm sorry. In my respectful submission, I'm - 16 - I'm guided by your comments of yesterday and I was 17 tending to deal with it in a way that I thought was 18 consistent with your remarks yesterday, Mr. Commissioner, 19 about using general examples rather than asking people 20 about specific conversations -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 22 I should hear -- 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- and I'm trying to do 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the


1 question before I decide. Now what's your observation, 2 Ms. Vella? I think we should at least hear the question. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well I -- I agree we 4 should at least hear the question and there could be 5 relevance with respect to the question. It depends on 6 how it's -- how it's phrased and if Mr. Roy's guided by 7 your comments of yesterday, then I think we should list 8 to the question. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 10 what your question is, Mr. Roy. 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well perhaps for the 12 benefit of the witness, I'll start over. I -- I gave an 13 introduction to what -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No I 15 wouldn't -- you don't have to go over that introduction, 16 I don't think. Just ask your question. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: All right. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 20 Q: In terms of the -- the your fellow 21 officers in and around the Ipperwash incident, did you -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well in and 23 around the Ipperwash incident, you mean at the Pinery 24 during this time? During this period of time? Is that 25 what you're --


1 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well the Pinery is 2 connected to the Ipperwash incident because -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. So 4 that -- 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- it's where -- where 6 the officers are staying during the Ipperwash incident. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 8 right. So if that's what you're asking -- 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm not trying to 10 restrict it to -- to on location at the Pinery. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He's just asking for 12 clarification. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well you 14 have to restrict it to something. You can't just say 15 anywhere, anytime, any place. There has to be some 16 context to the question. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. And the context is 18 the Ipperwash incident. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The policing operation 21 in relation to Ipperwash. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 The policing operation in and around. 24 MR. JULIAN ROY: The police, My Friend, 25 as usual is much more sync than I am. The policing


1 operation in connection with the Ipperwash Park --- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 3 Let's see what your question is. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 6 Q: Have you heard sentiments along the 7 following lines from fellow OPP officers such as I don't 8 give a shit about stupid fucking Indians? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 10 heard anything like that? That's the question. 11 THE WITNESS: No, I have not. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 14 Q: Have you heard sentiments along the 15 following lines 'big fat fuck Indian'? 16 A: No, I have not. 17 Q: Okay. What about 'big fat Native'? 18 A: No, I have not. 19 Q: Okay. That would be inappropriate, 20 correct? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 what he thinks is appropriate or not is important at this 23 stage. He hasn't heard those comments. So I think 24 that's -- he hasn't heard anything about any of those 25 comments.


1 MR. JULIAN ROY: All right. He -- he's 2 trained as an OPP officer and I -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, he's 4 not able to make anymore... 5 You can ask has he ever said anything like 6 that? 7 MR. JULIAN ROY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you've 9 asked the questions -- 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and he 12 hasn't heard anything along those lines. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 15 Q: Did you hear jokes that related -- 16 jokes with respect to alcohol and Aboriginal people? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you hear sarcastic comments 19 regarding, We stole their land or words to that effect? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Now, did you see - we've heard 22 evidence concerning paraphernalia that was created in 23 connection following the Ipperwash event, in particular 24 some mugs and T-shirts. 25 Let me ask you: Did you purchase a mug


1 concerning -- a mug that was created after this incident? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you purchase a t-shirt? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: Okay. And who did you purchase the 6 t-shirt from? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: And did you ever learn from anybody 9 that there was some concerns raised regarding the t- 10 shirt? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And how did you learn about that? 13 A: I believe there was a directive from 14 the OPP came out shortly after that. 15 Q: And what did you understand the 16 directive was? 17 A: That it was insensitive and should 18 not be continued. 19 Q: Okay. And do you recall who issued 20 the directive? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: And what did you do as a result of 23 the directive? 24 A: I no longer have the t-shirt. 25 Q: Okay. But if you could answer the


1 question. 2 What did you do as a result of the 3 directive? 4 A: I -- I have no t-shirt. I disposed 5 of the t-shirt. 6 Q: Okay. And when did you dispose of 7 the t-shirt? 8 A: I don't specifically know. 9 Q: So it might -- might have been at a 10 period of time after the direction correct? 11 A: I don't recall when it was. 12 Q: Did you see -- while you were at the 13 Pinery did you see cartoons posted ridiculing Aboriginal 14 people? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you see a bull's eye attached to 17 the side of an OPP cruiser with a toy arrow inside? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: Okay. I want to ask you -- could I 20 have your indulgence for one (1) -- one (1) moment 21 please? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you for -- thank 2 you very much for that indulgence. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 5 Q: I want to ask you some questions with 6 respect to the incident where sand was thrown in your 7 face? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And I take it there were other 10 officers in the immediate vicinity of you when the sand 11 was thrown in your face, correct? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: There would have been a number of 14 officers within several feet of you, is that correct? 15 A: I'm not specifically sure where they 16 were at that point my focus was really on the person in 17 front of me. 18 Q: They were certainly within earshot, 19 correct? 20 A: I don't know where they were. 21 Q: Okay. In terms of the duties that 22 you were performing there were you not providing cover 23 for your fellow officers? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No? And what were you doing then?


1 A: We were called down -- they called 2 for assistance -- 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: -- that -- because of the blockade. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I felt there was an issue in regards 7 to the offence of mischief and we escorted the native 8 people back to the Provincial Park. 9 Q: And in terms of providing assistance 10 you were providing assistance to your fellow officers, 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And in other words you would have 14 been responsible for -- for providing some protection to 15 them in their doing their duties as well, correct? 16 A: I guess it would be a mutual thing. 17 Q: Yes. So you would have the 18 expectation that the officers would also be available to 19 provide protection or cover to you as well, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, after the sand is thrown in your 22 face I believe your evidence was that you apprehended a 23 threat of a further assault, is that correct? 24 A: I -- I prevented a further assault. 25 Q: So at the time that you used your


1 pepper spray you didn't apprehend that there was a 2 further assault coming? 3 A: I'm sorry I guess I don't understand 4 -- can you rephrase that? 5 Q: Sure. 6 A: The word 'apprehend' -- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- to me makes it feel like there was 9 an arrest being made or going to be made -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- as a result of that incident. 12 Q: Well, you'd already been assaulted by 13 the sand being thrown in your face, right? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: You weren't concerned about a further 16 assault that was coming your way, correct? 17 A: I disengaged from the encounter and 18 minimized any further assault that would have come. 19 Q: Okay, but you didn't -- at the time 20 that you employed your pepper spray, you didn't feel that 21 you were about to be assaulted, correct? 22 A: I was assaulted and I could have 23 further been assaulted. 24 Q: Okay. You could have been assaulted, 25 right?


1 A: The potential certainly was there for 2 another assault. 3 Q: But you didn't see anything in front 4 of you that made you concerned that you were about to be 5 assaulted, correct? 6 A: I didn't see anything when I was hit 7 with the sand the first time, neither. 8 Q: So you -- you had no specific 9 information or you didn't see anything that made you 10 concerned that you were about to be assaulted a second 11 time, correct? 12 A: My concern came from that I was 13 assaulted once and that I could be assaulted again. 14 Q: Okay, but just in terms of clarity, 15 you didn't see anything specifically that made you feel 16 you were about to be assaulted a second time? 17 A: I didn't see anything, no. 18 Q: No. Now, in terms of -- you've 19 already told us that -- that you viewed the employment of 20 pepper spray as the use of force, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And for a use of force to be lawful, 23 it has to be related to either safety or effecting a 24 lawful arrest, is that correct? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And you weren't effecting 5 arrest by using the pepper spray, were you? 6 A: No, I wasn't. 7 Q: Now, you'd already been assaulted. 8 I'm right in saying that it's an improper use of force to 9 use force or use your pepper spray to retaliate against 10 an assault that's already happened, right? 11 A: I wouldn't use pepper spray as a 12 retaliation. 13 Q: Okay. Now, in terms of -- of your 14 entitlement to self defence and to use force in self 15 defence, you have an obligation to attempt to retreat 16 before you use force, isn't that right? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Well that is -- that's an option 21 that's available to you. 22 Q: Isn't it an obligation on your part 23 before you use force, to attempt to retreat from the 24 threat? 25 A: Not necessarily. If you were to


1 effect an arrest you -- you couldn't retreat and then 2 effect the arrest. 3 Q: Okay, but you weren't effecting an 4 arrest here. 5 A: Not in this case, no. 6 Q: No. So retreat was an option that 7 was available to you, right? 8 A: Yes, it was. 9 Q: Okay. And there was nothing 10 physically blocking you from retreating, correct? 11 A: No, I was able to retreat following 12 the use of the pepper spray. 13 Q: Okay. But before you used the pepper 14 spray, was there anything blocking you from retreating? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And before you used the pepper 17 spray, did you call out to your fellow officers for their 18 assistance in order to deter a further assault that might 19 be coming? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: No. And there wasn't anything 22 preventing you from doing that, either, was there? 23 A: Just the time factor. There was an 24 immediate thing and there wasn't time to -- to do that. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr.


1 Commissioner -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Mr. Roy. 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- those are my 5 questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you -- 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's five 10 o'clock and how long do you think you'll be now, Ms. 11 Jones? Can you give me some reasonable estimate? 12 I would like very much to finish if we 13 can, today, then you don't have to come back. 14 But if you're not up to it, we'll break 15 and have you come back. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Sir, Commissioner, I 17 think I'll be about fifteen (15) minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you all 19 right? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's go. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Officer Grandsden, Mr. Roy asked you 25 some questions about stopping cars on September 1,


1 September 2 and September 3. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And of course he never noted, when he 4 was asking you those questions, that you were working on 5 September 1 and September 3 on the night shift. 6 Do you want to look at your notes and 7 check and see if that's the case? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes, on the 1st of September I began 12 patrol at 7:00 p.m. 13 OBJ MR. JULIAN ROY: Your Honour, I -- Mr. 14 Commissioner, I'd like to object to that question because 15 it misstates the evidence. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, what 17 was the question again. I'm sorry, Ms. Jones, I -- 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: Ms. Jones suggested that 19 the notes reflect that he was on the night shift and they 20 don't. Some times he was on the night shift, sometimes 21 he wasn't. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: I said on September 1 23 and September 3 and I invited the officer to look at his 24 notes and tell me. 25 He's doing that now.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 So it's not timely yet, let's wait and see what the 3 officer says. Thank you, Mr. Roy. 4 Can you answer the question? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, on September the 1st I 6 began my patrol at 7:00 p.m. September the 3rd I began 7 my patrol at ten o'clock -- p.m. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 10:00 p.m.? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 11 Carry on, Ms. Jones. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Thank you. And the stops as I -- as 15 I look at your notes on September the 1st, the first stop 16 that you made was on -- you have down 21:45? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it at that time it would 19 be dark or getting dark? 20 A: The 1st of September I would assume 21 that that would be evening, dark. 22 Q: And can you tell me in your 23 experience Officer Gransden, if at night when you're on 24 patrol, can you tell who's in a car? 25 A: Generally no, you can't --


1 Q: Yeah. 2 A: -- in the darkness. 3 Q: That's right. I then had a few more 4 questions for you and I just wanted to follow up on some 5 of the questions that were asked to you about the sandy 6 parking lot incident on September the 5th. 7 And Ms. Vella and others have put some 8 propositions to you and asked you to respond. And I just 9 had a few number of other propositions because I think 10 you need an opportunity to fairly know what it was that 11 people said and have a chance to respond to that. 12 In terms of the -- Mar -- Marlin Simon 13 gave evidence and gave evidence on September 29th, 2004 14 and just to sort of set the stage for you of his 15 evidence. 16 His evidence was -- was -- there was 17 initially an incident regarding the picnic tables where 18 cars were driven into the picnic tables. And then he 19 says after that, the police left the sandy parking lot 20 and he says fifteen (15) or twenty (20) minutes after 21 that, come back in a formation and another incident 22 occurs, okay? 23 So that's where the overall context of 24 his evidence about the sandy parking lot. And I wanted 25 to ask you with respect to the picnic tables.


1 When you were approaching the sandy 2 parking lot on the evening or night of September the 5th, 3 I believe that you told Ms. Vella that there was no one 4 on the picnic tables when you saw the cruiser push 5 against the tables? 6 A: That is correct. 7 Q: And was there anyone around the 8 tables -- 9 A: No one that I -- 10 Q: -- that you could see? 11 A: No one that I saw. 12 Q: And did you see any women or children 13 in the area? 14 A: Not that I saw. 15 Q: Okay. And did you go back to the 16 sandy -- after you left the sandy parking lot after the 17 picnic table matter did you go back to the sandy parking 18 lot at any time that night? 19 A: No, I did not. 20 Q: Do you know whether anyone else went 21 back to the sandy parking lot at that time of night? 22 A: No one that I know of. 23 Q: Can you help us? Mr. Simon's 24 evidence was some fifteen (15) or twenty (20) police 25 officers went back the fifteen (15) or twenty (20)


1 minutes later and came down the road in formation. 2 Can you tell us in your experience with 3 ERT that if that number of officers are deployed, would 4 there be a requirement that -- could they do that on 5 their own initiative or would there be a requirement that 6 there be some direction? 7 A: For fifteen (15) officers to be 8 deployed in -- in some type of formation, that number is 9 significantly smaller than what would be required for 10 CMU. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: To deploy in that fashion a sergeant 13 supervisor would have been in conjunction with them to 14 supervisor the action of that -- that number of officers. 15 Q: Okay. And you've told us after you 16 were finished in the sandy parking lot that you went back 17 to the checkpoint, Checkpoint 'A'? 18 A: That is correct. 19 Q: And did you at any point in time that 20 night see fifteen (15) or twenty (20) officers march down 21 the road in formation? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: Did you hear any communications that 24 night that would indicate there was a number of officers 25 amassing and moving in formation?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Mr. Simon also talks about and again 3 this is on September the 29th, 2004, and it's pages -- 4 I'm summarizing, Mr. Commissioner, but it's pages 54 to 5 63 of his evidence. 6 He talks about a stocky officer with light 7 hair and sergeant bars asking for Judas and I wanted to 8 ask you whether to your knowledge there was anyone in the 9 sandy parking lot at the time of the picnic table 10 incident on September the 5th that was a sergeant? 11 A: No, there was not. 12 Q: Mr. Simon talked about a number of 13 the officers having telescopic clubs or ASP batons were - 14 - did you have yourself an ASP baton at that time? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: Do you know whether -- did you see 17 any other officers with ASP batons at that time? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: Do you know whether -- when -- 20 whether over the course of the time you were at Ipperwash 21 at some point in time you and others were issued with ASP 22 batons? 23 A: Yes, we were. 24 Q: Do you know when that happened? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I believe that was on the 6th of 4 September. 5 Q: Okay. I also wanted to ask you a few 6 things about David George who gave evidence on October 7 19th, 2004 and he says on October 5th of 1995 in the 8 afternoon or in the late afternoon four (4) or five (5) 9 officers came down I believe to the sandy parking lot and 10 can you look at your notes for September the 5th? 11 Can you tell us when you came on duty? 12 A: At 6:00 p.m. 13 Q: Were you on duty at all in the 14 afternoon of September the 5th? 15 A: No, I was not. 16 Q: And when you did come on duty where 17 did you go? 18 A: I was assigned to Checkpoint 'A' at 19 the TOC site. 20 Q: Were you at any -- were you at any 21 point in time at the corner of Army Camp Road and East 22 Parkway until you note in your notes I believe at 21:45 23 getting the request for a call for assistance? 24 A: No, I was not. 25 Q: Okay. Can you tell us in 1995 did


1 you have red hair? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you have a goatee? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: Okay. I wanted to then move on and 6 ask you just a few questions about some other matters 7 that were raised. 8 You talked about during the removal of the 9 picnic tables on September the 6th, 1995, you've told us 10 that you had a plastic shield during that time? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And some other officers did as well? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Why did you have a shield at that 15 time? 16 A: The removal of the picnic tables 17 followed the encounter of the night before -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- in which the rocks were thrown at 20 officers -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- and the shields would have been 23 there to protect the safety of the officers removing the 24 picnic tables if rocks or bottles had been thrown. 25 Q: Okay. I wanted to ask you a few


1 questions about emergency lights. 2 You had given some evidence a bout on the 3 night of September the 6th when you and another -- your 4 vehicle and another vehicle were following a person, a 5 car that turned out to be driven by Marcia Simon up 6 Highway 21, that you and the other police car had their 7 emergency lights on? 8 A: Yes, initially we did. 9 Q: Right. And what is a person required 10 to do in law if they have a cruiser behind them with the 11 emergency lights on? 12 A: When an emergency vehicle, whether a 13 police car, ambulance, or fire vehicle that has - has 14 flashing intermittent red lights they are to immediately 15 pull to the right on a two (2) lane highway. 16 Q: Okay. And is it an offence not to do 17 so? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: Okay. I wanted to ask you a few 20 questions about -- to follow up on what happened in -- at 21 Northville when Ms. Simon was in the phone booth. 22 You've told us a number of times that it 23 wasn't for sometime, through the -- that encounter that 24 you realized that the driver of the car was a female? 25 A: Yes. I don't know specifically


1 when -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- I made that -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- connection. 6 Q: And you were asked some questions by 7 Ms. Vella about your risk assessment. 8 And I wanted to ask you, does your risk 9 assessment in a situation change depending on whether a 10 person is male or female? 11 A: No, it doesn't. 12 Q: Okay. Ms. Vella also asked you some 13 questions about the demeanor of the passenger in the car 14 and I think at a particular period in time. And I just 15 wanted to ask you a few more questions about the 16 passenger in the car, who we know was Melva George. 17 And you were given a little bit of 18 information about Marcia Simon's evidence on September 19 23rd, 2004, I just wanted to follow up on that a bit in 20 relation to Melva George. 21 According to Ms. Simon on September 23rd, 22 2004, Melva George, that's the passenger in the car, was 23 on the ground trying to pray and saying that she couldn't 24 raise her hands because of arthritis. 25 Did you ever see Melva George on the


1 ground? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Okay. And did you ever see her 4 praying? 5 A: No, I did not. 6 Q: Did you -- Ms. Simon also gave 7 evidence that Melva George was screaming hysterically; 8 did you ever see Melva George scream? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Okay. When you first went up to the 11 car after Marcia Simon had been arrested, you've told us 12 that you went to the car Marcia Simon had been driving 13 and you had a conversation with the passenger at that 14 time, can you describe to us her demeanor at that moment? 15 A: She was quiet and cooperative and 16 didn't seem overly upset, and accepted the -- my 17 explanation of what was occurring, what were we going to 18 do. 19 Q: And I take from your evidence at some 20 point in time Ms. George was asked to get out of the car 21 I take it -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- as part -- so it could be 24 searched? 25 A: She was asked to step from the car --


1 Q: Yeah. 2 A: -- and I don't know if that was 3 before the search or -- or after the search. 4 Q: Okay. And what was her demeanor like 5 when she was -- I take it she was standing up when she 6 was outside of the car? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: At that point in time, did you have 9 any kind of a firearm pointed at her? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Did any other officer have a firearm 12 pointed at her at that time? 13 A: Not that I saw. 14 Q: And what was her demeanor like then? 15 A: Still continued to be cooperative and 16 -- and polite. 17 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 18 drove Melva George home -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- to Kettle Point. And during the 21 course of that drive what was her demeanor like? 22 A: Still continued to be the same, a 23 very nice lady. 24 Q: Okay. You had spoke a little briefly 25 about driving Marcia Simon to another location where she


1 was to be picked up and taken to the Forest Detachment? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Okay. And we understand from her 4 evidence that she would have -- that she says that it 5 took some time for her to be driven to the other 6 location. 7 And I just wanted to ask you about the 8 route that you took and why you took that route? 9 A: I don't really recall the route that 10 we did take. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: At that time -- 13 Q: Were you -- were you driving along 14 Highway 21, can I ask you that? 15 A: No, we weren't. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: At that time we were directed not to 18 proceed on Highway 21. So the route that we took was 19 gravel concession roads. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And I'm not totally familiar with the 22 concession road structure around -- between Northville 23 and wherever we met up with the prisoner van. I'm not 24 even aware of -- it was an intersection -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- but I don't even know where it 2 was. It was -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- a considerable amount of twisting 5 and turning and lefts and rights. 6 Q: Okay. Did you do the best you could 7 to get there in as expedition a fashion as possible? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Given the circumstances. You were 10 asked about the requirement for a use of force report if 11 you unholster your pistol. 12 Can you tell us whether or not to your 13 knowledge a use of force report would be required if an 14 officer had a long gun out, as opposed to a pistol? 15 A: Under the Police Services Act it's 16 not required for a long gun, but it is for a pistol. 17 Q: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 19 passed fifteen (15) minutes, Ms. Jones. I assume -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Well -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you're 22 just about done. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Commissioner, 24 you know, I think this is bang on timing. Thank you very 25 much.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 5 any re-examination? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have no questions on 7 re-examination. And I hear the cheering. But, in any 8 event, Officer Grandsden I want to thank you on behalf of 9 the Commission for attending today and giving your 10 evidence to this Commission. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 12 thank you as well. Thank you very much for coming and 13 giving us your evidence. 14 15 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And that 18 concludes a long difficult week. We will now adjourn 19 until Monday at 10:00 a.m. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Ten o'clock, that's 21 right. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until Monday, April the 3rd at 10:00 a.m.


1 --- Upon adjourning at 5:19 p.m. 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 _________________ 8 Carol Geehan, Ms. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25