11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 30th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) 23 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 24 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian R. Smith ) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOAN CATHERINE GOLDI, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 10 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 63 8 9 JOHN WERNER GOLDI, Affirmed 10 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 69 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 93 12 13 GORDON BURTON PETERS, Sworn 14 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 105 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 231 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-286 E-mail from Commission to Mr. And Mrs. 4 J. Goldi and Goldi Productions, March 5 24/05. 36 6 P-287 Videotape of Robert Isaac interview with 7 Mr. And Mrs. Goldi, Goldi Productions 8 Limited. 37 9 P-288 Letter addressed to Susan Vella, 10 February 22/05 from J. Goldi, Goldi 11 Productions, Re: Possible Liability 12 resulting in release of tapes. 48 13 P-289 E-mail to J. Goldi, November 19/04 14 from Commission Re: Robert Isaac and other 15 related tapes. 50 16 P-290 Initial request made to John and Joan 17 Goldi, July 21/04 from Commission for 18 Robert Isaac and related tapes in their 19 possession 54 20 P-291 Document Number 9000020, July 14/93 fax 21 from Mr. Ernie Hobbs, E.E. Hobbs and 22 Associates Limited to Mr. E. Anthony Ross 23 Re: "Chippewa Draft Agreement" July 13/93 131 24 25
71 EXHIBITS (cont.) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-292 Document Number 9000030, Letter from 4 Ronald C. George Law Office to Chiefs of 5 Ontario, Attention: Gord Peters, July 27/93, 6 Re: Agreement on working relationships, 7 Kettle Point/Stoney Point. 133 8 P-293 Document Number 1009973, Letter to 9 Premier Mike Harris from Chiefs of 10 Ontario, September 7/95 Re: Ipperwash 11 Provincial Park. 151 12 P-294 Document Number 14000060, Letter to 13 Chief Gordon Peters from Premier Mike 14 Harris, Re: Ipperwash Provincial Park. 154 15 P-295 Document Number 1011862, September 7/05 16 letter to all First Nations in Ontario 17 from Gordon Peters, Ontario Regional 18 Chief 157 19 P-296 Document Number 1006430, September 20 7/95, Chiefs of Ontario News Release 21 "Chiefs of Ontario Condemn Killings at 22 Ipperwash Park." 159 23 P-297 Document Number 1006430, September 24 8/95 Multi-fax from Gordon B. Peters, 25 Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario,
81 EXHIBITS (cont.) 2 No. Description Page 3 to the Honourable Ron Irwin, Minister, 4 Indian and Northern Affairs, Re: 5 Ipperwash. 192 6 P-298 Document Number 1003159, September 7 14/95 London Free Press article "Ipperwash 8 Deal Nearer, Barricades Come Down." 204 9 P-299 Document Number 1010176, November 29/95 10 letter to Honourable Chris Hodgson, Minister 11 of Natural Resources from Gord Peters, 12 Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario, 13 Re: Ipperwash Provincial Park. 220 14 P-300 Document Number 1009028, December 8/95 15 letter to Chief Gord Peters, Ontario 16 Regional Chief from Honourable Chris 17 Hodgson, Minister of Natural Resources 18 and Northern Development and Mines, Re: 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 222 20 P-301 Document Number 1012179, January 21 23/96 memorandum to Ron V. Rancart, 22 Deputy Minister, Ministry of Natural 23 Resources from Andromache Karakatsanis, 24 Re: Situation at Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park. 224
91 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Good morning everybody. Nice to see everybody 8 back again. Hope everybody had a happy Easter. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. The 10 Commission calls as its next witness, Joan Goldi. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mrs. Goldi. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 MS. JOAN GOLDI: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Mrs. Goldi, do you prefer 16 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 17 MS. JOAN GOLDI: I don't know. What's 18 the difference? 19 THE REGISTRAR: Which do you prefer? 20 MS. JOAN GOLDI: I'll affirm. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Affirm? Very good then. 22 State your name in full for us please. 23 MS. JOAN GOLDI: Joan Catherine Goldi. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 25
101 JOAN CATHERINE GOLDI, Sworn: 2 3 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 4 Q: Thank you very much, Mrs. Goldi. I 5 understand that you are here as a result of a summons 6 served by the Commission? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And it was served on you in your 9 personal capacity and in your capacity as a director and 10 officer of Goldi Productions Limited? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: You currently reside at 1409 Malibu 13 Terrace in Mississauga, Ontario? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you are currently a director of 16 Goldi Productions Limited and have been since 1984? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you have been an officer, namely 19 the secretary of the company, since 1984? 20 A: I guess so if that's my position. 21 You seem to have looked at my papers more than I have 22 lately. 23 Q: All right. Well, we did take the 24 opportunity to conduct something called a corporate 25 search and you are -- have been president since 1990?
111 A: Okay. If you say so. 2 Q: Do you have any reason to dispute my 3 question? Thank you. 4 A: No, my husband and I think -- I think 5 switched vice president and president, we don't know 6 which is which. 7 Q: And your husband is John Goldi? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And he also is a director and officer 10 of Goldi Productions Limited? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And he resides at 1409 Malibu Terrace 13 with you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I also understand that Goldi 16 Productions Limited's registered head address is 1409 17 Malibu Terrace in Mississauga? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And are you the person that primarily 20 responsible for filing the company's annual filings with 21 the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
121 Q: And you and Mr. Goldi are the only 2 officers and director of the company? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you are the only shareholders of 5 the company? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Your studio or the company's studio 8 is also located in your house at 1409 Malibu Terrace? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: The business of Goldi Productions 11 Limited is the making of documentaries? 12 A: Documentaries and educational 13 material, yes. 14 Q: Thank you. Audio visual material? 15 A: Some is audio visual, some is 16 written. 17 Q: All right. And are you primarily the 18 producer of these materials? 19 A: Yes. Well, my husband and I are both 20 producers. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But I do the main job of the liaison 23 and things like that. 24 Q: And I understand that Mr. Goldi's 25 primary role is as a cameraman and director?
131 A: Cameraman, director and editor. 2 Q: And editor. Thank you. I understand 3 that your company has won many awards for its 4 documentaries. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: I also understand that your husband 7 and you, under the auspices of your company, conducted a 8 number of interviews with individuals who were then 9 residing at the former Camp Ipperwash after the shooting 10 death of Anthony O'Brien George? 11 A: Yes, several months after. 12 Q: And these interviews were conducted 13 at the Camp Ipperwash facilities? 14 A: Yes. I believe all of them were, as 15 far as I can recall; it was a long time ago. 16 Q: And I understand that these 17 interviews were conducted generally between December of 18 1995 and February of 1996? 19 A: They may have gone on until March but 20 I think, yes, I think primarily in that period, most of 21 them being in -- I'm not sure, I'd have to check my 22 dates. 23 Q: All right. But that -- 24 A: That general period, yes. 25 Q: Thank you. And these interviews were
141 conducted in the presence of yourself and Mr. Goldi? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was there anyone else present 4 aside from the interviewee? 5 A: I can't recall. I think it was 6 mostly just us and the interviewee; there may have been 7 other people in the room at the time. 8 Q: All right. Now, how did you obtain 9 access to these individuals inside Camp Ipperwash? 10 A: We initially -- well, we had a small 11 development project after the -- after the shooting, 12 because we had, once upon a time, proposed to CBC a 13 program on the -- on Ipperwash because we had an interest 14 in that area and we'd worked with native people as 15 teachers and as filmmakers in the Canadian North for a 16 long time. 17 So after the events at Ipperwash in 18 September, CBC called us and said, Do you think you could 19 go and find out what's really going on. And we said, 20 Well, we'd try. 21 And we -- we asked through several 22 organizations to help us; I think the -- as I recall, I 23 think the Chiefs of Ontario, and we called a couple of 24 other groups who knew people that we knew in the North. 25 And several people came and interviewed us and checked us
151 out and then they helped us make the introductions to 2 people at Ipperwash. 3 And we explained to people that we -- we 4 basically wanted to find out what was going on. We 5 didn't believe that the newspapers were necessarily 6 telling us exactly what was going on. We lived in small 7 native communities in the North as teachers and worked 8 with people as -- as filmmakers. And we knew that what 9 went on in the press was not always the full truth of 10 what went on. 11 So we spent a lot of time just talking to 12 people. And we basically concluded that -- that what was 13 in the newspapers was not really what was happening. And 14 for our development report to CBC we said, People told us 15 that there were no guns at Ipperwash, everybody told us, 16 and we said we -- 17 Q: I wonder -- I wonder if I could just 18 stop you there. 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: I -- rather than telling us what 21 other people told you, what I'm -- I just wanted to know 22 how it was that you managed to get into the facility and 23 to talk to these people -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- and I think you've indicated that
161 you -- you were -- that introductions were facilitated, 2 that you spoke to these people for a long time. 3 And then did they agree or some of them 4 agreed to be interviewed by you for purposes of a 5 possible documentary? 6 A: That was after we'd been there a long 7 time. Like, we went -- we really got to know people 8 because, well, because we liked them basically, I guess. 9 Q: All right. And as a result then, you 10 conducted a number of interviews; is that correct? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: But, excuse me, I'd like to say 14 something else first. At this point, by the time we 15 conducted the interviews, CBC had told us that they would 16 not go ahead with the documentary. They -- they 17 basically told us, when we put in our report to them, 18 that they didn't believe what we said or they had reason 19 to doubt. 20 They -- they told us we were, to quote, we 21 were too much on the side of the Indians and they were 22 not going to go ahead with the documentary and they'd 23 finish out the development proposal. But, we said, We 24 are going to go ahead and try and record interviews 25 anyway --
171 Q: All right. 2 A: -- because we felt it was important. 3 Q: All right. And the purpose of 4 conducting the interviews was to have raw material for a 5 possible documentary in the future? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I understand that you -- amongst the 8 people you interviewed, you interviewed Carolyn George, 9 Dudley George's sister -- sister? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: David George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Pierre or Perry George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Leland George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: JT Cousins? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Buck Doxtator? 20 A: Yeah, yes. 21 Q: And Robert Isaac? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what was the general parameter of 24 your interview with these individuals? 25 A: I don't know what you mean by
181 parameter? 2 Q: What I -- what I mean is, what was 3 the -- what were the areas that you sought to cover in 4 your interviews? 5 A: Events surrounding the shooting and 6 also people's relationship to Camp Ipperwash and the 7 historical leading up to it. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: And the events that happened the 10 night of the shooting and close to that time. 11 Q: All right. Now, I just want to have 12 an understanding of the process of the interview. Was 13 there a preliminary interview that you conducted prior to 14 filming the interview? 15 A: By the time we interviewed each 16 person we knew that person very well and they knew us and 17 trusted us because otherwise you can't get a good 18 interview. And basically we turned the camera on and we 19 asked the -- the people to talk. 20 We -- we already knew from them what they 21 wanted -- I shouldn't say what they wanted to say, what 22 their background was on the -- on the part of the story 23 that we were interested in. And we basically turned the 24 camera on and let them talk and when they ran out of 25 things to say we would prompt them by saying, Could you
191 please tell us about such and such. 2 Q: All right. And the people asking the 3 questions, did that alternate between yourself and Mr. 4 Goldi? 5 A: Yes, hmm hmm. 6 Q: I understand you also interviewed 7 Marcel Beaubien? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And that was -- 10 A: He didn't -- he didn't say much. 11 Q: And that was in his office in -- on 12 or about March the 14th, 1996? 13 A: I can't remember when it was, but 14 that sounds about right. Hmm hmm. 15 Q: All right. And I also understand 16 that you and your husband viewed certain broken picnic 17 tables on or about December the 5th, 1995, that were 18 located at the MNR parking lot, which was formerly the 19 site of the Tactical Operation Centre? 20 A: Yes. That was after hunting high and 21 low for them. We hunted all up and down the coast, we 22 went up to the -- I shouldn't say the coast -- the shore, 23 and we went up to the Pinery. 24 We searched all there -- all there, piles 25 of tables. Like, when people told us the story about
201 sitting on the tables and the police cruisers coming and 2 hitting the tables, we honestly could not believe that 3 this would happen, and so we were curious. So we hunted 4 high and low and we finally found broken picnic tables 5 and they were, as you say, right beside the site where I 6 believe the OPP had had their headquarters. 7 Q: All right. I understand you also 8 recorded other objects which may be associated with the 9 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park and, for example, 10 you recorded footage of Dudley George's -- what has been 11 called Dudley George's ambulance or Pierre George's car? 12 A: I don't know, I'm not the 13 cinematographer. I wasn't there when that was done. 14 Q: That was something that Mr. Goldi 15 did? 16 A: I don't know. 17 Q: Well, you viewed it, you have seen 18 it. 19 A: I don't think I have seen it, to tell 20 you the truth. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Like, a lot of the footage I have not 23 seen. That was put away for nine (9) years and there's 24 too much footage to have gone through. 25 Q: I appreciate it, but you'll recall
211 that certain members from the Commission attended at your 2 studio in April and May of 2004, and in your presence 3 certain videos were shared with members of the 4 Commission? 5 A: Excuse me. I was not there. Peter 6 Rehak told me not to bother showing up for that showing. 7 Q: There were two (2) showings. 8 A: That's right. That was the second 9 one that was on May 10th, that's when according to what 10 you've written to us that footage you saw, but I was not 11 there. 12 Q: Fair enough. You're also aware that 13 Goldi Productions Limited has footage of what has been 14 called the "OPP Who" car also known as Robert Isaac's 15 former car? 16 A: We had a little of it. But we didn't 17 have much because for the documentary that we finally 18 made, we had to buy it from CBC and CTV's footage. The 19 footage that was in the documentary was all purchased 20 from them. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Of the "OPP Who" car. 23 Q: Now, do you recall having interviewed 24 any other individuals associated with the events of 25 September the 6th, 1995, other than whom I have listed?
221 A: I haven't got -- I haven't got a list 2 with me. 3 Q: Well, Mrs. Goldi, did you not refresh 4 your memory knowing that you were summonsed to come 5 today? 6 A: No. You just asked me -- you didn't 7 ask me to speak. You just asked me to show up with this 8 tape. If you'd asked me I might have brought a list. 9 Q: All right. Did your company maintain 10 a catalogue of tapes identifying what was on each tape? 11 A: No. 12 Q: How did you keep record then of your 13 various tapes? 14 A: Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, when they come 15 out of the camera, and they were put away. We had a 16 total of way over a hundred (100) tapes. A hun -- 17 somewhere between a hundred and sixty (160) and two 18 hundred (200) tapes. And they were numbered. 19 And they were dated and when -- when we 20 finally began the project on the documentary again last 21 year, when CBC did a development contract and then 22 commissioned the documentary, we had to start going 23 through and logging tapes. 24 We viewed the week before your first 25 viewing, when you came to our place. We spent about
231 sixty (60) hours going through the tapes day and night -- 2 Q: Well -- 3 A: -- trying to figure out what was on - 4 - on them so that we could find some that you would find 5 useful. 6 Q: And when you say one hundred (100) to 7 two hundred (200) tapes dated -- 8 A: No. A hundred and sixty (160) to two 9 hundred (200) tapes because -- 10 Q: All right. Thank you. 11 A: -- we shot for a long time. We also 12 did a lot of material with people when -- on the 13 followup. Like we were at a lot of meetings and things 14 like that where -- where people were trying to get the 15 land claim solved. 16 Q: All right. These tapes were 17 consecutively numbered and dated? 18 A: Well, I think John probably kept a 19 log of the dates, but they were numbered, yeah. 20 Q: And a log that would say -- 21 A: No. We didn't keep a log. 22 Q: Well, I thought you just said that -- 23 A: No. We put the numbers, it's called 24 a pencil. You take the tape, you take it out of the 25 camera and put a number on it.
241 Q: All right. 2 A: You put it in the box. 3 Q: You segregated the tapes so that they 4 would not be confused with other tapes that you would 5 have relating to other projects? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Is that fair? 8 A: Yeah, they were put in boxes. 9 Q: All right. Were the boxes labelled? 10 A: Ipperwash. 11 Q: Thank you. And how long -- how much 12 footage would be contained in terms of minutes on each 13 tape, on average? 14 A: They're half hour tapes. 15 Q: And how long, typically, were the 16 interviews that you conducted of each of the inter -- 17 individuals? 18 A: The series of interviews? It varied 19 from one (1) or two (2) tapes to -- I -- I don't know how 20 long the longest one was. Maybe three (3), four (4) five 21 (5) tapes. 22 Q: And did you maintain the underlying 23 raw unedited tapes of these recordings? 24 A: Pardon? 25 Q: Did you maintain the raw and unedited
251 tapes of these recordings? 2 A: Did we retain them? 3 Q: Did you keep them? 4 A: Well, we kept them. I'm not sure 5 what you're asking me. 6 Q: Well, I -- 7 A: We made a documentary. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Obviously we had tapes to make the 10 documentaries. 11 Q: And after you made your documentary, 12 which I understand was over the course of this past 13 summer and it aired the fall -- 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: -- did -- did you continue to 16 maintain the tapes? 17 A: The tapes that we had -- actually the 18 tapes that were in the show have disappeared and we have 19 no idea where they went. We were running two (2) 20 projects in the summer. We had a horrendous deadline. 21 We had four (4) students working in our house. And we 22 don't know where the show tapes are. 23 They were kept in a separate box in the 24 editing room, but after the -- after the editing was done 25 -- like you don't use them once you've digitized them --
261 you don't go back to the tapes. And when we went -- 2 finally went to hunt for them when you wanted them, we 3 can't find the show tapes anywhere. We have no idea 4 where they are. 5 Q: Now, when you say that you digitized 6 them, can you explain to me what -- what that means? 7 A: Well, John did the digitizing. It 8 means you run the tape into the computer. 9 Q: All right. And did -- and did you do 10 that at your studio? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And so is there a record of the 13 digitized version of these recordings? 14 A: What do you mean a record? 15 Q: Well, do you have a digitized 16 recording? Do you still have that data? 17 A: The digitized recording? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: No, we wipe that off the disks when 20 they're through, the storage is too expensive. It comes 21 off the drives when the show is over. 22 Q: What tapes do you have remaining, 23 then, relating to these -- to the Ipperwash-related 24 interviews? 25 A: All the ones that were left in the
271 boxes that weren't part of the show. 2 Q: All right. And where are those 3 tapes, currently? 4 A: They're all in our house in the 5 editing studio and in the storage room upstairs. 6 Q: Did you provide a duplicate copy of 7 the -- the tapes that you used for the documentary that 8 aired on CBC to the CBC? 9 A: Why would we supply them to the CBC? 10 No. 11 Q: I'm asking the question -- 12 A: The CBC has no rights to those. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: No, they have the -- they -- they 15 receive the master. Like, when you have a contract with 16 somebody you provide them with the finished master, but 17 they see the tapes as they go along. I mean, if they 18 want to view, they can look at -- they can look at 19 material. I mean they don't look at the tapes, they look 20 at the computer. 21 Q: All right. And if I understand it 22 correctly, you made these recordings back in 1995 and you 23 -- you managed to keep and maintain all of the tapes up 24 and through the summer, fall of 2004 for the production 25 of this CBC documentary?
281 A: Well, they -- they were in boxes, 2 they were stored in a room. That's what happens when you 3 do a show. You put them away and they're stored. 4 Q: Now, you -- you were noticed -- 5 notified as early as the spring of 2004 that this 6 Commission was interested in viewing these tapes? 7 A: The -- in viewing the tapes? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yes. I believe Peter Rehak contacted 10 me about the end of February or beginning of March, 11 something like that. 12 Q: And as a result, you made these tapes 13 or certain of them available for viewing by members of 14 the Commission in April and May of 2004? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And these tapes all had audio 17 components, the interviews? 18 A: The interviews? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And starting in July of 2004, 22 Commission Counsel advised you of its interest in 23 obtaining copies -- certain of -- of -- certain of the 24 tapes? 25 A: Yeah, that's right.
291 Q: And this is before the CBC 2 documentary was made, obviously? 3 A: No, I'm sorry, it was after we had 4 started on it. The CBC documentary was finally 5 commissioned at the beginning of May. 6 Q: All right. Now, one (1) more 7 question, do you still have the computer on which the 8 digitized tapes were stored before they were erased? 9 A: Well, they're stored on external 10 drives from the computer. 11 Q: Okay. But do you still have the 12 computer and the hard drive? 13 A: The hard drive? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: The computer is there. 16 Q: Excuse me. Sorry, go ahead? 17 A: We have the computer, but it's old, 18 it's not being used. It's been replaced with a new 19 system. It was at the end of its life. 20 Q: Do you still have the external hard 21 drive upon which the digitization occurred? 22 A: Hard drives? 23 Q: Yes, the external hard drives. 24 A: The hard drives are there. 25 Q: All right.
301 A: But the material's not on them, 2 they're being used for other shows. 3 Q: And where is this -- this piece of 4 equipment; is that at your home as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you. Mrs. Goldi, under the 7 summons served upon you and your company you were 8 required to produce certain tapes today. And I'm going 9 to go through the list and ask you what it is, if 10 anything, that you have brought today. 11 First, we requested all raw, unaltered, 12 unedited audiovisual material, recording and interview 13 conducted and recorded under the auspices of Goldi 14 Productions Limited of the late Robert Isaac in relation 15 to events which occurred at Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 including the period from September 4th to 7th, 1995, and 17 the events leading to the occupation of Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park and CFB Camp Ipperwash, and immediately 19 following the shooting death of Anthony O'Brien Dudley 20 George. 21 Did you bring those tapes with you today? 22 A: I have the tape that my husband gave 23 me. You've got to ask him about the tapes, he makes the 24 tapes, I'm not an editor. But, yes, we have the tape of 25 -- that was made early on. When you -- when -- I think
311 it was Peter Rehak that first told me that the Commission 2 would want to view the tapes, like, it was a long time 3 after you came and viewed the other tapes. 4 And at that time I believe my husband made 5 a tape because he thought you might -- you had mentioned 6 when you were viewing it that you would want a tape of 7 Robert Isaac, and he made a tape at that point. And I 8 believe that's the one we've got. I don't know, I'm not 9 the editor. 10 Q: Well, you'll recall that -- that a 11 tape was received by the Commission and that the 12 Commission provided correspondence to you indicating that 13 the tape, when played, did not have any audio and 14 appeared only to be with respect to part of the interview 15 that was conducted by you of Robert Isaac; that is, that 16 part which pertained to the events of the evening of the 17 6th of September, but not the initial part of the 18 interview. 19 A: Well, I don't know which part of the 20 interview it had but it had audio when it went out of the 21 house because I told John to make sure, Let's check and 22 make sure there's audio. And I sat there and it was 23 played, and it had audio when it was sent to you. 24 The picnic tables didn't have audio 25 because there was never audio --
321 Q: Perhaps you could just -- 2 A: -- in the original. 3 Q: -- stay right now with the Robert 4 Isaac. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: You have a tape in front of you, can 7 you -- is there a label on it? 8 A: "Robert Isaac Interview, Goldi 9 Productions Limited." 10 Q: All right. And you have advised me 11 this is a -- a duplicate copy of the tape that was 12 already sent to the Commission? 13 A: I don't know what tape it is. It's 14 the one my husband made and gave to me. 15 Q: Did you not have -- 16 A: I'm not the editor. 17 Q: Why did your husband make it for you? 18 A: I don't know what you're asking me. 19 Q: Well, as you know, the Commission has 20 made numerous attempts to serve your husband, all of 21 which have failed. 22 A: Excuse me. That was with your guy 23 who pounded on the door when my husband was away and 24 wouldn't identify himself. He looks like something from 25 Satan's Choice Motorcycle Gang; I was scared out of my
331 wits. 2 Q: This is -- you were served by -- 3 A: You -- you served it to Goldi 4 Productions Limited and the officers of Goldi Productions 5 Limited, so obviously he's going to show up. But I'm not 6 answering the door for a guy who looks like that when I'm 7 by myself in the house. 8 Q: Do you recall receiving an e-mail 9 from the Commission asking when Mr. Goldi would kindly 10 make himself available to be presented with the summons? 11 A: I didn't receive that e-mail. 12 Q: I'm going to show to you a copy of an 13 e-mail, it's addressed to 14 John.Goldi@GoldieProductions.com and to 15 JGoldi@Sympatico.ca; are these not the e-mail addresses 16 for your husband and for Goldi Productions? 17 A: They go into his computer, I don't 18 see them. We get hundreds of e-mails a day. 19 Q: That wasn't my question. Are those 20 the accurate e-mail addresses? 21 A: They're not my e-mail, no. They're 22 for Goldi Productions, yes. 23 Q: Thank you. And you are an officer 24 and director of Goldi Productions, are you not? 25 A: But I don't read all the e-mail.
341 Q: I'm going to show you a copy of the 2 e-mail provided. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: No, I've never seen this e-mail. 7 Q: For the record, the e-mail is dated 8 March 24, 2005. It's addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Goldi: 9 "I understand from our process server 10 that he has been unable to serve Mr. 11 John Goldi with a Summons to Witness 12 requiring him to appear to testify on 13 Wednesday March 30, 2005, despite 14 numerous attempts. Our process server 15 was, however, able to successfully 16 serve Mrs. Goldi with a virtually 17 identical summons. Mrs. Goldi has been 18 summonsed both in her personal capacity 19 and in her capacity as an officer and 20 director of Goldi Productions Limited. 21 I am writing to inquire as to when and 22 where Mr. Goldi would like to be 23 personally served prior to Wednesday, 24 March 30, 2005. If he does not wish to 25 make himself voluntarily available,
351 then I will seek an order from the 2 Commissioner allowing a form of 3 substitutional service. In terms of 4 Mrs. Goldi, please come to the Hearing 5 prepared to advise the Commissioner of 6 all the locations, addresses of any 7 place, receptacle or unit, including a 8 storage unit, security box or other 9 storage facility, at which Goldi 10 Productions Limited stores its audio 11 visual and related materials. 12 In Mr. Goldi's most recent letter to 13 us, he indicated that Goldi Productions 14 Limited were required by the terms of 15 its insurance to store these materials 16 off-site. If this is so, then as an 17 officer and director of the company, 18 Mrs. Goldi has access to this 19 information if, indeed, she doesn't 20 already know. 21 I expect that Mrs. Goldi will bring to 22 the Hearing on Wednesday, all of the 23 materials required by the summons, 24 which is identified by the summons." 25 Now, you've indicated that you did not
361 read this? 2 A: No, I haven't read the e-mail. I 3 read it now, yeah. 4 Q: And did Mr. Goldi indicate to you 5 that he had read this e-mail? 6 A: No, we don't discuss e-mail. We have 7 been up to our ears in work. 8 Q: Well, this -- 9 A: And we planned to come here. You 10 served us, we came, he's there. We brought -- you can 11 have all the information you like; I can supply you with 12 that information. The -- the -- requiring materials to 13 be off-site, according to the insurance, is only during 14 production and that expires the day -- that insurance and 15 that requirement expires the day the show is broadcast. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. I'd like to 17 tender into evidence now, as the next exhibit, the e-mail 18 that we have just identified. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-286, Your 20 Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-286. 22 Thank you very much. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-286: E-mail from Commission to Mr. 25 and Mrs. J. Goldi and Goldi
371 Productions, March 24/05. 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Second, I'd like to 4 tender into evidence at this time, the tape which has 5 been brought by Mrs. Goldi, identified as -- as an -- as 6 the interview -- or we haven't established that it's a 7 partial interview or not, Commissioner, and we'll have to 8 view the tape in order to determine that, but let's mark 9 this as the next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-287, Your 11 Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-287. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-287: Videotape of Robert Isaac 15 interview with Mr. And Mrs. 16 Goldi, Goldi Productions 17 Limited. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now, by the terms of the summons, you 21 were also required to produce today, all raw, unaltered, 22 unedited, audio visual material, recording, and an 23 interview conducted and recorded by you under the 24 auspices of Goldi Productions Limited of Perry George, 25 also known as Pierre George, the brother of the late
381 Dudley George, in relation to events which occurred at 2 Ipperwash Provincial Park, including the period from 3 September 4 to 7, 1995, the events leading to the 4 occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park and CFB Camp 5 Ipperwash and immediately following the shooting death of 6 Anthony O'Brien Dudley George. 7 Did you bring that tape with you today? 8 A: I don't have that tape. 9 Q: What happened to that tape? 10 A: I have no idea. We had -- during the 11 summer we were producing a show with the shortest -- from 12 beginning to air time for a major feature length 13 documentary that I've ever heard of. We had a very short 14 deadline. 15 We also had another project running. We 16 had four (4) students working for us, we were all in a 17 small space and we did all kinds of housecleaning and I 18 have no idea where those tapes went, they disappeared 19 somewhere. When we went to look for them towards the end 20 of October we couldn't find them anywhere. We have 21 hunted high and low, we've gone through everything. 22 I -- I mean, tapes get lost. We've had 23 people lose tapes in the -- the past. We've had 24 government people lose tapes, we've had lawyers lose 25 tapes.
391 Unfortunately, we don't know where the 2 show tapes were because as they were digitized, as far as 3 I know, they were thrown into a box in the editing room. 4 They were separated out from other tapes. I have no idea 5 where they are. 6 The only thing I can think of is that they 7 must have gone out by accident in a load of garbage, 8 because we were throwing out all kinds of old tapes. 9 We've been doing television for years and our house was 10 full of old tapes. It's -- I'm afraid it's been a bone 11 of some contention in our household. 12 Q: Now I want to also ask you, the 13 summons required you also to bring all raw, unaltered, 14 unedited audio visual material recorded and produced by 15 you under the auspices of Goldi Productions Limited of 16 the following scenes relating to the events which 17 occurred at Ipperwash Provincial Park between September 4 18 and 7, 1995. 19 Specifically broken picnic tables believed 20 to be the picnic tables removed by the OPP from the 21 Ipperwash Provincial Park area in or about September 5 or 22 6, 1995. Did you bring that with you today? 23 A: I don't have the originals of those. 24 Q: Well, copies will do. 25 A: You have a copy.
401 Q: Did you bring a copy today? 2 A: No, you have the only copy in 3 existence other than what is on the -- on the final 4 production of the show. 5 Q: Did Pierre George's car, the day he 6 retrieved the car from the police pound, the vehicle 7 called the "OPP Who" car, and any other audio visual 8 material scenes relating to the Ipperwash Provincial 9 Park, the CFB Camp Ipperwash and the site of the former 10 OPP Tactical Operations Centre located at the parking lot 11 operated by the Ministry of Natural Resources off from 12 East Parkway Drive. 13 Did you bring any of that footage with you 14 today? 15 A: I've never seen that footage. No, I 16 don't have it. 17 Q: Did you make enquiries of your 18 husband with respect to that as an officer and a director 19 of Goldi Productions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what was his response? 22 A: We don't have the tapes. I just told 23 you we hunted high and low for all the tapes. 24 Q: Mrs. Goldi, do you recall having a 25 conversation with Commission counsel to the affect that
411 you said that the Robert Isaac tape, in particular, had a 2 great amount of commercial value to you because he was 3 now deceased that it was one (1) of the hottest tapes 4 that you possessed? 5 A: I have never discussed any tape I own 6 in terms of commercial value; never. 7 Q: You indicated that it was -- the most 8 -- one (1) of the most valuable tapes that you possess; 9 did you not? 10 A: I have never discussed any kind of 11 commercial value. There is no commercial value to those 12 tapes. 13 Q: Well, let's do -- let's delete the 14 word "commercial." Did you not say to Commission Counsel 15 that the Robert Isaac tape, in particular, was a valuable 16 and important tape? 17 A: I have not used anything to do with 18 valuable. I may have said it's the best tape and it's 19 very important, but it has no commercial value. What you 20 interpret in terms of valuable and what I interpret, are 21 totally different. 22 All the good parts of Robert, all the 23 important parts are in the documentary. They're out in 24 the world doing all kinds of promotion of what Robert 25 wanted. To me as a filmmaker the important parts go into
421 the show, that's why you make a show. And I would never, 2 ever, purposefully lose any of my show tapes, believe me, 3 I never would. 4 But I have been working in a mess all 5 summer, piled up with lots of other people in a very 6 small space, computer works climbing all over each other. 7 Believe me, I would never lose tapes on purpose. 8 Q: Mrs. Goldi, these are tapes which you 9 managed to maintain from 1995 to 2004. These are tapes 10 which you knew the Commission had an interest in 11 reviewing. These are tapes that you knew since the 12 summer, the tapes that the Commission wished to have. 13 And you're telling me now that you don't 14 know where any of these tapes are, that they've been lost 15 somewhere. Coincidentally the tapes that we want. Not 16 the tapes -- all of the tapes, but just the tapes that we 17 want. 18 A: What do you mean the tapes that you 19 want? All the tapes -- 20 Q: The tapes that were the subject of 21 the summons, Mrs. Goldi. 22 A: The tapes that were in the show, all 23 the tapes that were used in the show, that were pulled 24 out of the other boxes in storage. It was one (1) box 25 because it -- they were thrown in in the editing room as
431 they were digitized and that's the box we can't find. 2 It's all -- all the tapes that were used 3 in the documentary show and the interviews that were 4 digitized for it. And we -- we did make a tape, or my 5 husband made a tape early on in the season. As soon as 6 you indicated that you wanted the Robert Isaac tape, he 7 made a tape of it. 8 Q: The difficulty is, is that the tape 9 that your husband made was not of the entire Robert Isaac 10 interview and that -- and we determined that the sound 11 had been erased and a letter immediately -- 12 A: Don't ask me. 13 Q: -- was directed to Goldi -- Mr. 14 Goldi, with respect to Goldi Productions Limited advising 15 of the mistake and asking for it to be rectified. The -- 16 the offer was made to rectify the mistake, but we never - 17 - you never sent, nor did Goldi Productions send, the 18 revised tape. 19 A: Excuse me, I read the letter that he 20 wrote to you and he said that he would send it to you if 21 you wanted it as soon as you asked for it and you never 22 asked for it. I brought it today. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
441 Q: Now, we'll get back to that -- that 2 e-mail. I propose to produce to you what the 3 Commission's response was to that offer of invitation, 4 but before we get to that, we received -- the Commission 5 received from Goldi Productions Limited a letter dated 6 February 22, 2005. And I'm going to show you a copy of 7 this letter and then we'll review it. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, is this a letter that you have 16 seen before? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: I'm sorry, could you say, "yes" for 19 the record, please? 20 A: Sorry, yes, I have seen this, hmm 21 hmm. 22 Q: Thank you. And it's addressed to 23 Susan Vella, the Ipperwash Inquiry, dated February 22, 24 2005? 25 A: That's right.
451 Q: The first paragraph reads: 2 "After talking to our lawyer we are 3 very worried that we face potential and 4 serious liability problems that will 5 result from your uncontrolled release 6 of our unedited raw footage to the 7 media and to the public." 8 And then six (6) paragraphs down, it's 9 written: 10 "Public use and release of our unedited 11 material in the way you demand could 12 leave us open to a lawsuit that could 13 force us into personal and corporate 14 bankruptcy." 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And then onto the third page, please, 17 second paragraph -- or second page, excuse me. Quote: 18 "You cannot use any of this material in 19 public until you have provided us with 20 a -- with the protection we need with a 21 zero deductible E and O (phonetic) 22 insurance certificate as outlined 23 above. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Now, nowhere in this letter does it
461 suggest that the reason why the materials are not going 2 to be produced to us is because they are lost, but rather 3 because you received, apparently, advice to the effect 4 that by producing tapes to the Commission as evidence, it 5 would expose you to liability and you wished the 6 Commission to buy you an E and O insurance policy; isn't 7 that right? 8 A: That's with regard to the Robert -- 9 to the tapes that we have. We've been threatened, 10 obviously. When you -- obviously, when you do a 11 documentary like that one, has threats from people -- the 12 bus chasing type of lawyers. 13 Q: And I'd like to know, please, without 14 getting into the details of any conversations, I'd like 15 to know the name of the lawyer that you consulted in 16 respect to this advice. 17 A: Ashton -- what's her last -- Kelly 18 Lynn Ashton (phonetic). 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: She's the one who does our errors and 21 omissions insurance for CBC. 22 Q: And did you advise that this was -- 23 the purpose of seeking these tapes was to tender as 24 exhibits at a Public Inquiry? 25 A: I'm -- I don't understand your
471 question. 2 Q: That the use of the tapes would be to 3 be produced for purposes of entering into evidence at a 4 Public Inquiry? 5 A: No, I discussed it just in very 6 general terms. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Give me a few minutes 12 to find the right document. Mr. Registrar, I would like 13 to hand up two (2) further documents for -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 15 going top make the -- the letter of February 22nd -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- an 18 exhibit? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. Thank you, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 22 you should. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The next exhibit 24 please. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would
481 be -- 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-288, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 288. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-288: Letter addressed to Susan 6 Vella, February 22/05 from J. 7 Goldi, Goldi Productions, Re: 8 Possible Liability resulting 9 in release of tapes. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: I'm now producing to you a e-mail 13 that's addressed to firstname.lastname@example.org 14 dated November the 19th, 2004. It's in response to Mr. 15 Goldi's letter of November 2nd, 2004 in which he, amongst 16 other things, makes an offer to reconfigure the tape and 17 send it to us. 18 And you might look at the second page of 19 that, top paragraph, last line, I quote: 20 "You indicated -- you have indicated 21 that you will send the reconfigured 22 tape of Robert Isaac and we would 23 appreciate receiving it immediately. 24 We will pay for the overnight courier 25 fee, in this respect, to expedite the
491 receipt. Furthermore, we require to -- 2 we continue to require production of 3 the balance of the video tape footage 4 required under the summons which 5 continues to be in full force and 6 effect; this includes production of the 7 entire Robert Isaac video and the other 8 scenes which you recorded. 9 In the event we do not immediately 10 receive these items, we will have no 11 choice but to exercise the Inquiry's 12 remedies to compel full disclosure of 13 all relevant tapes in your possession 14 and/or under your control. 15 I will be in my office on Monday and 16 Tuesday of next week to receive your 17 reply and the required video tapes. We 18 will also require a sworn affidavit 19 confirming the integrity, authenticity, 20 completedness and -- of the video tapes 21 which I have draft -- which I will 22 draft for your review and signature." 23 Did your -- did this e-mail not come to 24 you attention? 25 A: I don't think I've seen this one
501 before. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 3 that the next exhibit, Commissioner. 4 THE REGISTRAR: It's P-289, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-289: E-mail to J. Goldi, November 7 19/04 from Commission Re: 8 Robert Isaac and other 9 related tapes. 10 11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. This is to 12 john.goldi. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 15 Q: I -- I appreciate that. 16 A: We're only two (2) people. We are 17 trying to make a living. We work sixteen (16) hour days. 18 I don't read every mail that comes to my husband, every 19 piece of e-mail that comes to my husband. 20 Q: Mrs. Goldi, no such suggestion has 21 been made to you. But the fact of the matter is, is that 22 these e-mails are all relevant and pertinent to the tapes 23 in question which are the product of the Goldi 24 Productions Limited. There has been numerous 25 correspondence back and forth by e-mail as between
511 Commission Counsel and yourselves. 2 And so to suggest that -- that you didn't 3 read the e-mail does -- does not mean that the e-mail did 4 not come to John Goldi's attention or that it would have 5 come, in terms of content, to your attention. 6 A: I'm not saying it didn't come to John 7 Goldi's attention. I'm saying I didn't see it because I 8 can't read all the e-mails that come through. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: We searched high and low for the 11 tapes. I believe it was in late October when we were 12 looking for them to send to you. That's when we 13 discovered we didn't have the box. 14 And the only thing I -- can conclude is 15 that it went out during the summer when we were 16 housekeeping. I have no idea. I'd be glad to bring them 17 to you if we had them. 18 Q: And just for the record, I'd like to 19 show to you the first request that was made of you for 20 production of these tapes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Thank you. 25 Q: And you'll see this is a letter dated
521 July 21, 2004 addressed to John and Joan Goldi, 1409 2 Malibu Terrace from Mr. Derry Millar. 3 And here is the initial request you'll 4 agree, for certain of the tapes in your possession, 5 particularly showing an interview with the late Robert 6 Isaac, a number of the scenes of physical surroundings of 7 Ipperwash Provincial Park and items which were the 8 subject of description by several of the aboriginal 9 persons whom you interviewed in preparation of a 10 documentary on the shooting death of Anthony Dudley 11 George; you agree that that's the first formal request 12 that was made of you for these tapes? 13 A: Yes, and it's vary vague. And, also, 14 on July 21st I was in the middle of production, I had -- 15 we had to deliver, according to our contract with CBC, we 16 were supposed to deliver our rough cut at the beginning 17 of August and deliver the finished show at the beginning 18 of September. 19 After I received this, I believe I spoke 20 to Derry on the phone and I said I'd try and get an e- 21 mail to him but I just didn't because we were totally 22 harassed. For one (1) thing, we couldn't have made the 23 tapes at that point because we did not have two (2) days 24 to go hunting for stuff and we couldn't -- couldn't do 25 any kind of taping of stuff or use our studio for
531 anything else. 2 Like, I -- I'm sorry but our thing to the 3 CBC just came first. It's a deadline, it's my contract, 4 it's a living, and we had to do it. 5 Q: Mrs. Goldi, when did you complete the 6 -- the CBC documentary? 7 A: On September 20th. 8 Q: And, therefore, as of the date of 9 this letter you were in possession of the Robert Isaac 10 tapes, were you not? 11 A: I have no idea. I assumed, when I 12 received the letter and spoke to Derry, that I was, but 13 as far as I know, they'd all been digitized. I really 14 don't know if I had them at that point. 15 Q: In any event, there was certainly a 16 copy, whether it's digitized, on video or whatever, there 17 was a copy in existence when you got this letter from the 18 Commission and you took no steps to preserve a copy, did 19 you? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: You took no steps to preserve a copy 22 of that tape after being notified that it was required -- 23 A: There was a copy -- 24 Q: -- because you were busy making a 25 documentary?
541 A: A tape was sent to you. 2 Q: Sorry. 3 A: It was made early in July, I believe, 4 it was -- or maybe it was mid-July, but a tape was sent 5 to you. As far as I knew, it was the tape you wanted. 6 Q: And we advised you that it was not. 7 In any event, I'd like to make this the next exhibit, 8 Commissioner. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-290. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-290: Initial request made to John 12 and Joan Goldi, July 21/04 13 from Commission for Robert 14 Isaac and related tapes in 15 their possession. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Mrs. Goldi, I'd like to know the 19 addresses of all of your offsite storage facilities, 20 please, with respect to Goldi Productions Limited? 21 A: What do you mean our "offsite storage 22 facilities"? 23 Q: My understanding, based on earlier 24 correspondence from Mr. Goldi, is -- and as you 25 confirmed, is that you have to have -- your insurance
551 requires you from time to time to store tapes offsite. 2 Where -- what are the locations of those sites? 3 A: It was -- it was stored at John's 4 mother's house; she's eighty-nine (89) and the father 5 just celebrated his one hundredth birthday. Without 6 telling them, we put it in their basement storage. 7 Q: Is -- and what is the address of that 8 house, please? 9 A: God, you're not going to harass old 10 people. There is nothing there now. Believe me, there 11 is nothing there, I'll swear on the bible or anything you 12 want. Please do not harass the old people. 13 Q: The Commission is not in -- in the 14 business of harassing anything, Mrs. Goldi. 15 A: I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm not -- 16 Q: We would like to have -- 17 A: Sorry, I'm not implying that. But 18 just please don't -- we didn't even tell them we put it 19 there but we put it there. 20 Q: And what is the address of the house, 21 please? 22 A: It's an apartment on White Oaks 23 (phonetic) Boulevard in Oakville. 24 Q: The exact address, please? 25 A: I don't know. I would have to look
561 in my book, which is at home. I'll e-mail it to you if 2 you want. 3 Q: Thank you. Do you have any other 4 storage facilities or security box or receptacles at 5 which you store tapes from time to time? 6 A: Our masters are stored at our 7 duplicating lab, which is VCR -- VCR Active Media 8 (phonetic). 9 Q: And what's the location of that 10 business? 11 A: It's on -- it's in Mississauga. I'll 12 get you the address after, I don't have it right here 13 with me -- 14 Q: And is that the -- 15 A: -- but I brought it. 16 Q: Is that under Goldi Productions 17 Limited? 18 A: Yes. No, it's not under -- the tapes 19 are under Goldi Productions Limited. They're a 20 duplicating house and the masters are stored there for 21 our finished shows -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- that we duplicate the master for 24 the -- for the Ipperwash documentaries there. 25 Q: And did you check with that facility
571 to see if they had an extra copy? 2 A: Yeah. We've had stuff going in and 3 out. We checked because we had stuff at Simram 4 (phonetic) as well. 5 Q: And, the response? 6 A: They only have the masters. 7 Q: They have the masters? 8 A: They have the master for the 9 documentary, the finished documentary. 10 Q: Okay. Are you in poss -- were you 11 provided with physical items by members from the Army 12 Camp when you were interviewing them between December and 13 February or March of '96, such as David George's drawing 14 of -- of his conception of the police marching? 15 A: Which drawing? You mean the one we 16 used -- 17 Q: The one that's on -- the one that's 18 on your web site? 19 A: There's no drawing on our web site. 20 Do you mean the one we used in the documentary that we 21 filmed? 22 Q: Well, there's one that I saw that is 23 on your web site, but in any event, it may well have been 24 in the documentary, but did you receive any such physical 25 items --
581 A: No, we put -- 2 Q: -- that were lent to you. 3 A: -- excuse me, that -- that drawing 4 was commissioned when we were shooting this summer on the 5 documentary and we were down here pretty well every 6 weekend and we knew that David George was a really fine 7 artist. 8 We remembered that he was and we went and 9 visited him several times and tried to persuade him to do 10 some -- some conceptual art and he did that drawing for 11 us. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And we paid him the price that -- 14 that he wanted for it. That was done this summer, at 15 least that's what he told us, so I assume that was the 16 case. 17 Q: But were you not lent certain 18 physical material such as video tapes; do you recall any 19 -- being lent any materials from anyone at the Army Camp? 20 A: Terry and -- I can't remember his 21 wife's name, lent us some and we duplicated some and gave 22 them back, I believe, but I don't know where those are. 23 We had -- there were some materials that Ben Pouget 24 (phonetic) said that they had, but he had lent them to a 25 native fellow who was making a documentary in Toronto.
591 And we kept phoning and phoning that guy 2 to see if we could borrow them and we could never get 3 hold of him. I believe, as I recall, we even went to his 4 apartment looking for him and he wasn't home. And Ben 5 told us that the material somehow got destroyed in a 6 flood or something and we were never able to get hold of 7 it. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: We know that's material that -- that 10 was made shortly after the -- shortly after the shooting. 11 Q: All right. All right. Commissioner, 12 I'd like -- I'm sorry -- propose to adjourn this 13 examination pending the Commission's ability to review 14 the -- the tape and determine whether or not the further 15 attendance by Mrs. Goldi might be required in the future. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you need 17 to hear it now? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, not here now. I 19 wouldn't propose to do it here now. We'll review it in 20 due -- in due course. Well, we may be able to play it 21 here, we're not sure. It depends on the tape, obviously, 22 but I'd like to adjourn the examination for now pending a 23 possible recalling of this witness depending upon what we 24 find on the tape. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
601 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. I propose 2 that we take a fifteen (15) minute recess right now. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 4 I was going to suggest and we sort of see where we are 5 and where we're going. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And we'll see where we 7 are and perhaps we can look at the tape quickly and -- 8 and then I can make a determination as to whether we will 9 need to recall the Witness. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 11 that's a good idea. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, fair enough. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 14 break now. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:48 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
611 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mrs. Goldi, would you 2 take the stand please? 3 THE WITNESS: Me? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I can 5 advise that we've been able to view at least a part of 6 the tape and -- and the audio is on this copy of the 7 tape. It is obviously a -- a partial -- copy of the 8 partial interview but I have no further questions for 9 Mrs. Goldi. 10 However, there may be some individuals or 11 parties who wish to cross-examine and perhaps we could 12 see. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does any of 14 the parties wish to cross-examine this witness? Or do 15 any of the parties wish to cross-examine? 16 Mr. Klippenstein...? How long do you 17 think you might be? 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About five (5) 19 minutes, sir. 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I'm not -- Mr. 21 Commissioner, I'm not quite so concerned about a cross- 22 examination but it's procedural matter where we're going 23 with this. 24 And I can't quite tell -- and I -- and I 25 understand -- I understand the dilemma My Friend's
621 facing. But if -- if other documents were to be produced 2 -- other tapes were to be produced and the difficulty is 3 that my client was interviewed in one (1) of those tapes 4 apparently; I haven't seen it. 5 Obviously My Friend hasn't seen it either, 6 I take, or hasn't -- doesn't have a copy that's about to 7 be produced. But prior to -- should the Witness be 8 recalled and should that tape be produced, I'd obviously 9 like sufficient advanced production of that tape so that 10 I can review it with my client and prepare any cross- 11 examination that might be necessary. 12 But I'm not sure where we're headed, 13 whether there's to be -- there's many options that My 14 Friend has, ranging on a continuum from contempt all the 15 way through to -- to simply seeking to attend and produce 16 orders. I don't know -- or produce the tapes -- I don't 17 know where we're headed but I've got to protect my 18 client's interest by making this point before you now. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 20 you've done that. 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 23 anything you wanted to add to that? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The -- the intent of 25 seeking the Robert Isaac tape was because Mr. Isaac is
631 deceased -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Deceased. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and therefore, this 4 would be a statement made very close to the event with 5 respect to Pierre George, there's an issue about his 6 ability to -- to testify that -- so we were seeking that 7 tape. 8 And the physical objects are objects that 9 either are in a deteriorated state or they're no longer 10 available for inspection. So these -- this was a way to 11 get evidence that we could not otherwise get at. 12 In the event that we obtain other tapes 13 that are relevant, then of course we'll disclose those 14 and if we have to recall the Witness to put them in, 15 we'll do that and My Friends will have notice of that. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 Does that satisfy your concern? 18 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes, thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 All right, we'll do the cross-examination. It's just Mr. 21 Klippenstein. 22 Mr. Klippenstein...? 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 25 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Goldi. My name is
641 Murray Klippenstein and I'm the lawyer for the Estate of 2 Dudley George and for some of the brothers and sisters of 3 Dudley George. 4 We've had some discussion this morning of 5 some tapes that apparently are no longer available. I 6 don't know if you're aware of this but the -- the family 7 members of Dudley George have been calling for a public 8 inquiry for many years, including from right after the 9 shooting and repeatedly month after month, year after 10 year. 11 Can you give me some idea if the -- if the 12 government of Premier Harris had called a public inquiry 13 shortly after the shooting or a year or two (2) 14 thereafter, would access to some of these tapes have been 15 a little easier? 16 A: What do you mean "easier"? 17 Q: Would some of them been available 18 that are not available now? 19 A: Well, they were available when we 20 started the documentary because we digitized them. Did 21 you see the documentary that was on CBC? 22 Q: Yes, yes. 23 A: Because I can provide you with a copy 24 of it -- 25 Q: Yes.
651 A: -- probably. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I mean if the family members have 4 copies. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: The tapes were available until we did 7 the documentary but we have not handed them out to 8 different people. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: Because it would simply take too long 11 to have duplicated them. 12 Q: But if Premier Harris had called an 13 inquiry previously, those tapes would have been 14 available? 15 A: What do you mean would they have been 16 available? They were available until we did the 17 documentary. They disappeared somewhere during our 18 production in the summer. I'm not sure what you're 19 asking. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that though the 21 evidence is in that they were available at a certain 22 period of time and they were not available at another 23 period of time. And whatever can be drawn from that, can 24 be drawn from that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From that
661 evidence -- the tapes existed up until the time the 2 documentary was produced. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. I - 4 - I don't need to pursue the question any further. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: With respect to the -- the tapes that 8 -- that are not available anymore, that -- that may have 9 been inadvertently disposed of, to the best of your 10 recollection or knowledge, was there any evidence or 11 suggestion, in any of the materials on those tapes, that 12 the Native protestors had guns in Ipperwash Park from the 13 beginning of the occupation until the shooting of Dudley 14 George? 15 A: No, exactly the opposite -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just an 17 answer to -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a minute, hold 19 on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just 21 before you answer the question. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that this -- 23 this question is -- is inappropriate. It's asking for 24 the Witness's recollection of what was on tapes which 25 allegedly no longer exist. We've had the direct evidence
671 of the witnesses, most of whom were interviewed by the 2 Goldi's and I think that the value that can be added by 3 this person is -- is minimal. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I agree with 5 that. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: If I may -- if 7 I may make a submission on that, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: My Friend has 10 referred to parts of an interview of Robert Isaac, who is 11 deceased; interviews of Mr. Pierre George, who may or may 12 not be called. She's mentioned evidence that has 13 deteriorated, so some of that may not be available. And 14 so my question and my -- and the answer of Mrs. Goldi may 15 be the best available evidence on that question. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if it 17 -- I'll let you answer that, Ms. Vella. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. The -- the 19 tape that we have -- I haven't seen the whole thing but 20 I'm somewhat familiar with it -- I believe that Mr. Isaac 21 speaks to the issue, so Mrs. Goldi would not be the best 22 evidence in that respect. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you 24 expect to play that tape at some point; the one of Robert 25 Isaac?
681 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We will tender that 2 tape at some point. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 4 exhibit now? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It is an exhibit but 6 we intend to also play it for the parties once they've 7 had an opportunity to have a look at it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 9 should move on, Mr. Klippenstein. I don't think that's a 10 useful area of cross-examination. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 12 Commissioner. I have no further questions, thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. 15 You're excused now. Thank you very much. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 18 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 19 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission would 21 like to call as its next witness John Goldi. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hello. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Goldi. 25 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Hi.
691 THE REGISTRAR: How are you, sir? Do you 2 prefer to swear on the bible, affirm, or use an alternate 3 oath? 4 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Affirm is fine. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Could 6 you state your name in full for us? 7 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Which? 8 THE REGISTRAR: State your name in full. 9 MR. JOHN GOLDI: John W. Goldi, G-O-L-D- 10 I. 11 THE REGISTRAR: And the W stands for? 12 THE WITNESS: Werner, W-E-R-N-E-R. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 14 15 JOHN WERNER GOLDI, Affirmed: 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Mr. Goldi, I understand that you 19 presently reside at 1409 Malibu Terrace in Mississauga? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you are currently a director and 22 officer of Goldi Productions Limited? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And with your spouse, Mrs. Goldi, 25 Joan Goldi, you are the sole shareholder -- sole
701 shareholders of that company? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: I understand that -- were you advised 4 that there were attempts to serve you with a summons to 5 witness -- to appear at this Inquiry? 6 A: That's right. My wife told me when I 7 got home that somebody was there. 8 Q: All right. And did she share with 9 you the -- the summons that she received? 10 A: Yes. We looked at it, yeah. Hmm 11 hmm. 12 Q: So you were aware that she was being 13 summoned, as was the company? 14 A: Sure, yeah. 15 Q: And you assisted her with respect to 16 attempting to comply with that summons? 17 A: Oh, yes, that's why I'm here, because 18 I have not been served with a summons. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. And did you 20 receive a copy of an e-mail from me dated March the 24th, 21 2005, Exhibit P-286, perhaps that can be put before the 22 Witness. 23 A: Yeah, I'd appreciate it. March 24th? 24 Q: 2005. It's Exhibit P-286. 25 A: Just the one (1) pager there?
711 Q: It's a one (1) pager -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: It's addressed, "Dear Mr. and Mrs. 4 Goldi --" 5 A: "I understand from our process 6 server --" 7 Q: That's right. 8 A: Okay, fine. Yes, I have that. 9 Q: And we requested as to whether you 10 would voluntarily produce yourself for -- 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: -- service. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And you got that e-mail? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: You didn't respond to it. 17 A: Well, I'm here. 18 Q: All right. But you didn't respond to 19 me that you had receipt or that you would be here. 20 A: No, I guess I didn't. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, you wrote to me -- 22 you'll recall that -- you will recall that you provided 23 us with a copy of a tape of the interview of Robert Isaac 24 some time ago and that we wrote you back to indicate that 25 we could not obtain the audio on it and that there was
721 quite a lot of wording across the top and the bottom. 2 And we asked you to reconfigure it so that we could have 3 audio and reduce the writing on this image. 4 A: This story goes back a lot further 5 than that. 6 Q: I appreciate -- 7 A: The story -- 8 Q: Oh, go on. 9 A: The story begins actually when you 10 guys were in our house asking to see which kind of tapes 11 you wanted to see. And I distinctly remember asking you, 12 Rick, and Derry whether you were interested in seeing 13 tapes of interviews before the night of the shooting, 14 whether -- when people were down at the Camp and 15 picnicking or on the Camp -- Army Camp years themselves 16 and everybody said, No, we're interested in the night of 17 the shooting. 18 So, tapes that you asked to see of 19 interviews were all based on the night of the shooting. 20 And that happens to be the way Robert's tape is now 21 configured because subsequent to that, listening -- 22 talking to Peter Rehak and talking to Derry on the phone, 23 the -- what you guys wanted kept changing from viewing or 24 showing or seeing, dupes, no dupes, dupes with things on 25 them.
731 It kept changing over and over. And one 2 (1) time during this -- July I think, I made -- I made 3 that VHS copy of Robert's interview on the day of the 4 shooting. That's why it's split off, because your 5 interest and focus, as expressed to me on April 7th and 6 May 10th, was the day of the shooting. So, when I had 7 free time some time, it must have been July, I -- I did a 8 VHS dub of Robert on the day of the shooting and you have 9 that tape. 10 Q: Now, you'll appreciate that during 11 the course of showing the Commission members various 12 interviews, you showed to us the entire interview of 13 Robert Isaac, which -- which related to not just the 14 events of September the 6th, but his prior attendance at 15 the Park and the aftermath of the shooting; is that not 16 correct? 17 A: No, it's not correct. I do not 18 recall whether I showed you the whole Robert interview, 19 because it is on two (2) tapes. It's on two (2) tapes, 20 and you specifically referred to your notes in your e- 21 mail to me that that interview was on one (1) tape and 22 you confirm that Rick Moss's (phonetic) notes also 23 confirm the interview you wanted was on one (1) tape. 24 The -- his interview exists on two (2) tapes, but the day 25 of the shooting it was on one (1) tape.
741 Q: Mr. -- Mr. Goldi, now, with all due 2 respect -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- you have received correspondence 5 and e-mail from the Commission since May of 2004 asking 6 for the entire unedited interview of Robert Isaac. 7 A: That's not true. I'd like to see an 8 e-mail from May say -- showing me that you want Robert 9 Isaac's interview or any other interview on tape. I 10 think the first notice we ever got in writing that you 11 wanted -- that you wanted footage was from Derry to Joan 12 on July 27th. 13 Q: July the 21st. This is Exhibit P- 14 290, perhaps you can put that letter before the Witness. 15 THE REGISTRAR: He has it. 16 THE WITNESS: Is that Derry's letter? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's Mr. Millar's 18 letter, that's correct. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay, fine, yeah. And I 20 think that's the first letter we ever got asking us for 21 tapes, not May as you just said or June -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: No, no. That -- you misunderstood 25 me.
751 A: Okay. 2 Q: I indicated that we saw the entire 3 tape, and that's why in -- in -- in April and May and 4 that's why we know what it is we're asking for. And it's 5 clear, Mr. Goldi, from the tape that we have, that you 6 have produced, that it starts mid-sentence and it ends 7 mid-sentence, so you'll agree, sir -- 8 A: It could be. It could be. 9 Q: -- that what you produced to the 10 Commission or at least what Mrs. Goldi produced to the 11 Commission today, is not the entire interview as you 12 conducted it, but a segment of it. 13 A: That's right, yeah. 14 Q: And you'll agree from your review of 15 the -- of the summons served upon Mrs. Goldi that we 16 didn't ask for a partial interview, but rather the whole 17 interview. 18 A: Hmm hmm, but as I said -- 19 Q: Isn't that true? 20 A: I guess. 21 Q: And you'll recall that we caused you 22 to be served with an earlier summons, sir, which also 23 asked for the entire unedited interview. It did not say 24 an edited interview, it said the entire unedited 25 interview.
761 A: Well, as -- as I mentioned, the 2 interview was on two (2) tapes. You told me that it was 3 your expert advice that it was on one (1) tape, and that 4 is the tape you wanted. I can find the e-mail where you 5 say those exact words. 6 Q: Sir, we indicated that we knew the 7 tape number of -- insofar as you relayed it to us and it 8 was tape number 55 -- 9 A: Actually, the tape -- 10 Q: -- but I didn't have the tape. 11 A: -- which is not the tape number for 12 that interview, ma'am, I'm sorry. 13 Q: Well, then I guess -- 14 A: It's the wrong tape. 15 Q: -- we have the wrong tape. 16 A: The tape you have there is tape 56, 17 which is Robert on the day of the shooting. 18 Q: Now, sir, Exhibit 290 is the letter 19 from Mr. Millar and you'll see in front of you dated July 20 21, 2004, it's addressed to both you and to Joan Goldi. 21 And we are requesting, among other things, the video 22 tapes in your possession showing an interview with the 23 late Robert Isaac, not an edited or partial interview. 24 A: Okay. Fine. 25 Q: Furthermore, you received an e-mail
771 from us indicating once you had given to us the partial 2 interview without audio, that we expected you to produce 3 the entire interview. 4 A: Well, -- 5 Q: If you'd like we could look at the e- 6 mail to you dated November 19, 2004 and it's Exhibit P- 7 289 and in that e-mail we outline that we require the 8 entire interview, not the partial interview and with 9 sound. Do you have that in front of you, sir? 10 A: I'm trying to find it. 11 Q: Perhaps you can show -- 12 A: I don't know if I have it. I would 13 appreciate a copy of that document. 14 Q: Certainly, of course. 15 A: I'm not sure where the heck it is 16 now. 17 Q: Exhibit 289. It's the detailed 18 response to your letter of November the 2nd. 19 A: Yeah, among the interviews we 20 reviewed was April 7, was the one conducted by Robert 21 Isaac. 22 Q: That's right. 23 A: His interview was recorded on tape 24 55. 25 Q: That was our information.
781 A: Yeah. 2 Q: "In his interview, Robert Isaac 3 outlined his involvement in First 4 Nation efforts to reclaim the former 5 Stoney Point Reserve; his background in 6 the Friendship and Honour Club from 7 Walpole Island; his initial involvement 8 with Dudley George as caretakers of the 9 Camp Ipperwash beach --" 10 A: Okay, I've got it all in front of me. 11 All I -- all I -- 12 Q: Excuse me, sir, if I might just 13 finish my question? 14 A: Sure, sorry. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 "In or around spring of 1995 in his 17 detailed account of the occupation of 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park and the 19 ultimate confrontation with the OPP, 20 which resulted in the shooting death of 21 Dudley George. 22 As you know, Mr. Isaac is deceased and 23 hence the only direct evidence of which 24 the Commission is aware of Mr. Isaac's 25 perceptions of these events is what is
791 recorded in your interview of him. You 2 will appreciate that Mr. Isaac, as a 3 direct participant in the events 4 leading up to the actual occupation 5 itself of Ipperwash Park, would have 6 been a critical witness at the Inquiry. 7 It is in the public interest that his 8 entire unedited recorded interview be 9 called as evidence at the Inquiry. In 10 addition, we reviewed recordings of 11 various things relevant to the 12 occupation of the Park including Pierre 13 George's car and certain broken picnic 14 tables. These video tapes are also 15 important, since these objects no 16 longer exist, either at all or in their 17 original form. 18 Accordingly, on September the 20th, 19 2004, the Commission caused both you 20 and Mrs. Goldi to be served with a 21 summons to appear, in which you were 22 obliged to produce at the inquiry inter 23 alia the entire unedited taped 24 interview of Robert Isaac. 25 In our covering letter of September 17,
801 2004, we detailed the various videotape 2 recordings which we require and why. 3 We also indicated that if you were able 4 to provide the Commission with copies 5 of the requested materials before 6 September 28 together with a sworn 7 affidavit attesting to the authenticity 8 and integrity of the tapes, we would 9 endeavour to have the tapes entered 10 into evidence on consent without the 11 need to have you personally appear. 12 In response, in October 2004, I had a 13 telephone conversation with Joan Goldi 14 in which she expressed concerns 15 regarding protection of your commercial 16 interest in the raw videotape footage, 17 notwithstanding the fact that your 18 documentary had already aired on CBC 19 television. I indicated that I would 20 look into the -- what the Commission 21 might be able to do in this respect. 22 In my e-mail communication of October 23 11, 2004, I provide the Commission's 24 response, i.e., you could attach a 25 simple header publicizing that you
811 retained intellectual property rights 2 in the footage. 3 In the latter part of October we 4 received a package containing two (2) 5 videotapes. The first was a duplicate 6 recording of part of Robert Isaac's 7 interview and the second was a limited 8 shot of broken picnic tables. Neither 9 had any sound which we could access. 10 Both had several large lines -- several 11 lines in large font affixed across each 12 image providing advertising for your 13 production company as well as the 14 traditional copyright line which 15 hampered the visibility of the images. 16 In my e-mail communications of October 17 27, 2004, I set out the Commission's 18 grave concerns for the deficiencies of 19 your production which falls short of 20 the requirements set out in the 21 Commission's summons. By e-mail dated 22 October 29, 2004, you stated that you 23 would look into our concerns and 24 advise. 25 By e-mail attachment dated November 2,
821 2004, you provided a letter in which 2 you provided a response to the 3 Commission's concerns. In the letter 4 you advised that you could not find the 5 balance of Robert Isaac's interview or 6 the other footage required by the 7 Commission. 8 Your advice raises further grave 9 concerns on the part of the Commission 10 particularly when measured against Mrs. 11 Goldi's persistent advice to me that 12 the Robert Isaac video footage was the 13 most valuable piece of footage you had. 14 Further, our notes indicated that the 15 entire interview was on one (1) tape. 16 I specifically made a note of the tape 17 number due to the fact that Robert 18 Isaac was deceased, as did our 19 investigator, Inspector Rick Moss. 20 You have indicated that you will send a 21 reconfigured tape of Robert Isaac, and 22 we would appreciate receipt 23 immediately. We will pay for the 24 overnight courier fee in this respect 25 to expedite receipt."
831 Sir, we did ask you for the entire 2 unedited videotape. We refer back to our original 3 summons of September the 20th, and we -- and we asked you 4 for the -- the entire tape. 5 Now, you'll agree with me that what you 6 have caused to be produced to the Commission today 7 through Joan Goldi is a partial recording of the Robert 8 Isaac interview, notwithstanding your knowledge as back 9 as at least July of 2004 that we required the entire 10 unedited interview? 11 A: Well, all I'm saying is you have kept 12 moving the goal posts on me throughout this period on 13 what you were after and what you weren't after. 14 The letter you're quoting here, where 15 you're saying you want all of this stuff with Robert 16 talking about the friendship and honour club, you weren't 17 interested in that when you were at our house watching 18 the tapes, because I brought up all the stuff outside the 19 night of the shooting, there was no Commission interest 20 in seeing these tapes. 21 So that was my understanding, that you 22 weren't interested in the tapes of Robert then, on that 23 day either, which is why in July I made the tape you now 24 have. My tape does not reflect your November e-mail 25 here. It reflects my understanding of your presence at
841 my house expressing your views on what you were 2 interested in hearing from Robert Isaac. 3 Q: In fact, it was written in response - 4 - given in response to the letter from Mr. Millar of July 5 21, 2004 -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- in which he requested the 8 interview -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- with the late Robert Isaac -- 11 A: Okay. So that's -- 12 Q: -- not the partial interview -- 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: -- Mr. Goldi. 15 A: Yeah. And -- 16 Q: In any event, you were clear, if not 17 in the summer, then by the fall, that we wanted the whole 18 interview? 19 A: That's right. And the -- the tape 20 that I provided you was one that I made sometime in July 21 based on my understanding of your needs in July. I was, 22 in July, in the midst of the toughest job I've ever had 23 in my life. 24 If you -- to give you a point of reference 25 of what we were doing, we were doing a one and a half ( 1
851 1/2) hour feature documentary. A guy who does a 2 documentary that's an hour long, gets a year and more to 3 do it. 4 We were given eight (8) weeks. It's 5 unheard of, in Canada, that someone does a feature 6 documentary in one and a half (1 1/2) -- in one and a 7 half ( 1 1/2) hours in eight (8) weeks. It's undoable 8 and that it be done by two (2) people is even -- it's 9 just impossible. 10 Q: Mr. Goldi, I -- I think we all 11 understand that you and Mrs. Goldi had a busy summer -- 12 A: In other words -- 13 Q: -- and we also -- 14 A: -- I was also making tapes for the SI 15 -- for the -- for the Commission. I wasn't -- that when 16 Derry's letter arrived, I did not start going through 17 tapes making tapes or dupes. We let it ride. We let it 18 slip. 19 Q: Mr. Goldi -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- you had a request from a public 22 inquiry. You knew that we wanted the tape. 23 A: And you have a tape that I gave in 24 answer to your request. 25 Q: You knew that we wanted the whole
861 interview and you have not produced that, have you? 2 A: Well, the point is, by the time 3 November came around, we couldn't find the originals, as 4 I pointed out to you in my letter that -- in November 5 here. My letter of November 2nd pointed out to you that 6 we couldn't find the originals. 7 The -- the tape I made from you first was 8 made off a VHS and this one was made off a VHS too. They 9 were not made off the original masters. I don't think 10 you understand how a television documentary is edited. 11 Q: Mr. Goldi -- 12 A: And maybe that's the problem. 13 Q: -- I -- I don't require -- I don't 14 think the Commission is benefiting from your -- your 15 evidence concerning the process of editing and 16 documentary so let's -- 17 A: Well, it explains why the tapes 18 disappeared. 19 Q: -- let's -- let's keep this focussed. 20 Now on February 22nd, 2005, you caused a letter to be 21 written on behalf of Goldi Productions Limited; is that 22 right? 23 A: Which letter are you referring to 24 please? 25 Q: Letter after we -- after talking to
871 our lawyer. 2 A: Okay, fine. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-288. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 7 Q: It's Exhibit P-288. It should be in 8 front of you, Mr. Goldi. 9 A: It's fine, I'll go from memory. 10 Q: Well, do you recall causing that 11 letter to be sent to me? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 13 have to go from memory. We've got a copy for you. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah, that's fine. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Do you have it there? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 17 a copy? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay, it's here. 19 That's the one you provided, that's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Thank you very much. And you 23 indicate, sir, that the reason that you are not providing 24 the unedited raw footage to us is because of concerns you 25 have with respect to liability if these tapes are
881 tendered into the Public Inquiry as evidence. 2 And that you require the Commission to 3 provide you and to purchase for you, a certificate for 4 errors and omissions insurance for $2 million on any one 5 (1) claim, unlimited aggregate and zero dollars 6 deductible with no time limit; isn't that so? 7 A: That's right, yes. 8 Q: And furthermore, sir, you indicate at 9 the -- on the second page, that we cannot use any of this 10 material in public and so we have provided you with the 11 protection you need as outlined above; is that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you further indicate, on the 6th 14 paragraph of the letter, that the insurance company is 15 quite likely to find that our actions, releasing for 16 public consumption a whole slew of unedited materials not 17 under the original policy, are in breach of our original 18 contract and use that to excuse -- excuse to cancel our 19 policy outright; isn't that right? You make that 20 statement on behalf of the company. 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: That you're not prepared to release 23 the whole slew of unedited materials we've requested 24 because of that reason? 25 A: No. I think we asked for insurance
891 coverage to get us out of liability of having Robert's un 2 -- unedited tape released outside the agreement. Our 3 insurance covers us for the segments that we have put 4 into the show. Insurance does not cover us for segments 5 of things that Robert may say and have not been cleared 6 by our lawyers. 7 So we had a panic attack thinking about 8 insurance and our liability when an unedited piece of 9 footage -- like we went through hell with our lawyers and 10 our accountants because of the explosive nature of what 11 people were saying -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- on tape. 14 Q: Not related to the Commission's 15 request, however. You're talking about with respect to 16 something else; aren't you? 17 A: Well, I'm talking about release -- 18 releasing the unedited portion of Robert's tape, which is 19 in your possession. 20 Q: Well, we might have to beg to differ 21 on that point. With respect to the tape which is in our 22 possession now, it's Exhibit P-287, the partial interview 23 of Robert Isaac, would you kindly tell me, first of all, 24 when you caused that copy of the tape to be made and 25 under what circum -- how -- how it was you created the --
901 the tape, please? 2 A: Okay. I think we made it sometime, 3 as I said, in -- in July, I think somewhere in July. I 4 don't keep notes on doing stuff, and it was not our 5 frontline concern. As an editor I was up to here with 6 what -- my work and this was done off the side. 7 From my understanding of what you wanted 8 when you said you were interested in Robert's -- 9 Q: I'm just -- I'm just asking, sir, for 10 you to tell me what process you used to duplicate the 11 tape. This is so that I can verify -- 12 A: We have a studio with all kinds of 13 equipment, we interconnect the cords and make a copy. 14 Q: You made a copy from what? 15 A: Well, off the -- off the computer. 16 Q: From the digitized version? 17 A: Oh yeah. Yeah. We -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- as I wanted to tell you before, 20 when you make a show, and we did -- when you make a show, 21 you, first of all, shoot it on hard videotape; that is 22 the camera master. Sometime during May and June I 23 digitized those masters and threw them away. 24 Q: Threw -- 25 A: You do not save your --
911 Q: -- threw what away? Did you throw 2 away the tapes -- 3 A: -- masters. I'm using a colloquial 4 term. In the modern editing sweep of digital -- in the 5 digital world, you do not see the masters again. 6 Q: When did you throw away the masters? 7 A: Well, that depends. I think we did 8 our digitizing in May and June and July. 9 Q: All right. And, from my 10 understanding -- 11 A: Then the tapes are put into a box or 12 thrown away or whatever. Everything that happens after 13 that is done inside the computer, including that tape you 14 have. 15 Q: What tapes did we review? 16 A: You reviewed camera tapes. 17 Q: All right. And where are those 18 camera tapes? 19 A: They were in about seven (7) or eight 20 (8) boxes until we got the go-ahead from CBC. Then they 21 were moved down into the editing suite and I digitized 22 them based on my -- what I wanted to go into the 23 computer. 24 And I'm -- I don't know, I don't keep 25 logs; logs don't pay. The show, I get paid for. So I --
921 you know, like Margaret Wenty (phonetic) said last week, 2 she has the messiest house in the world, no, that's not 3 true, we have the messiest house in the world. 4 Q: All right. And, Mr. Goldi, with 5 respect to the tape that we have -- that has been 6 produced today as Exhibit P-287, the segment, at least, 7 of the interview that we now have in our possession -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- did you make any alterations, 10 deletions, omissions, additions to that tape from the 11 original shooting? 12 A: Well, I -- I think you know what I 13 did. We put headers on -- we put -- I forgot what they 14 were, we put something, "Copyright Goldi Productions," on 15 the tape. 16 Q: All right. But did you make any 17 other alterations -- 18 A: No, I -- 19 Q: -- to the tape or its content? 20 A: Not that I know of. 21 Q: So it is from the original master? 22 A: No, it's from the original computer, 23 digitized. 24 Q: Computer digitized version which, in 25 turn, came from --
931 A: We never touched the masters -- 2 Q: Excuse me which, in turn, came from 3 the original master? 4 A: Yeah, sometime in May or June. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 A: I haven't -- I never saw the masters 7 again probably after June or July. We have no need for 8 them so we don't check them. 9 Q: Thank you, Mr. Goldi. Those are my 10 questions. Does anyone wish to cross-examine this 11 witness? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Karen 13 Jones does. 14 THE WITNESS: Can I just add something? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that perhaps 16 you'll wait for a question to be asked. 17 THE WITNESS: Sure. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 20 Jones...? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Mr. Goldi, my name is Karen Jones. 25 I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial
941 Police Association. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: I was just listening to your 4 explanation of the process of how you go from the video 5 footage to your final material. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And, if I understand what you said, 8 you take the video and -- footage and you digitalize it? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: So you move it into the computer? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you move all of the video footage 13 into the computer or you -- do you decide which portions 14 are important to you? 15 A: It depends on the show. It depends 16 on the camera. It depends on your conception of what 17 you're going to put together. It varies with every 18 program. I think what we did in this program, we 19 digitized all the interviews. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Because it's easier than going back 22 to the tape. I think we digitized all the interviews 23 into the show because it's a lot easier, like word 24 processing, to go in instead of getting tapes in and out. 25 Q: Okay. That was my question whether--
951 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- all of the interview -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- was digitalized -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- or whether it was edited before 7 you did that. 8 A: Yeah, that's right. 9 Q: Okay, thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much, Ms. Jones. That's it? 12 Thank you very much, Mr. Goldi. 13 THE WITNESS: Could I add a couple of 14 things here? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 16 sure. What do you want to add, Mr. Goldi? What do you 17 want to talk about? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that we're 19 talking here about Robert's tape being missing. But I -- 20 let me just say, there's nothing of Robert that's 21 missing. Robert has been an international spokesman for 22 the story at Ipperwash. The documentary he was in won 23 the feature documentary -- was a finalist at the feature 24 documentary in the American Indian Film Festival in San 25 Francisco.
961 It was selected for show at the American 2 Indian Festival in San Francisco. It was also a finalist 3 at the New York International Film Festival -- 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Goldi, I don't 5 understand the purpose of -- of this part of your answer 6 except perhaps to give profile to your work. But the -- 7 the point of the matter -- 8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm saying that's where 9 Robert is. Robert is up there talking all over the 10 world. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- the point of the -- 12 THE WITNESS: He's not missing. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sir, the point of the 14 matter is, is that you had -- you had further footage of 15 his interview relating to other matters and that has not 16 been produced; that's the fact of the matter, sir. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, it depends, I guess. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 19 THE WITNESS: I might also point out that 20 I -- I don't like us being portrayed, at all, as hostile 21 to this Inquiry. I might say the Inquiry is sitting here 22 because of my big loud mouth to the SIU on December the 23 8th. We went into the SIU, my wife and I, after spending 24 weeks here and -- and said what are you guys doing with 25 Dudley George.
971 And the SIU director told us, we are 2 closing the SIU file on Ipperwash. Monday -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 THE WITNESS: -- I'm announcing that we 5 are not going to be indicting anyone for any illegalities 6 at Ipperwash. And I pointed to him and I said, You can't 7 do that. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Thank you very much, Mr. Goldi. Thank you very much. 10 Let's move on. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 12 Klippenstein has a couple of exhibits. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 14 want the exhibits to go missing. 15 Thank you, Mr. Rosenthal. 16 Thank you, Mr. Goldi, Mrs. Goldi. Okay? 17 Where are we now? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that we won't 19 break lunch for some -- some time. What time would you 20 like to take lunch today, Commissioner, I should ask? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 22 Approximately one o'clock. Do you have a witness ready 23 to go right now? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, we have a witness 25 ready to go.
981 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I had a few 2 words that I wanted to say. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Of course. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 5 be the appropriate time for me to say them, before you 6 call your next witness? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that it would 8 be most appropriate, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 10 just had a few words that I wanted to say before we move 11 onto the next group of witnesses. We're not quite ready 12 to move to the next group of witnesses but I'd just like 13 to take a few minutes to reflect on the work of the 14 Inquiry to date. 15 With the benefit of extensive reading, 16 research and listening over the last number of months, we 17 now know a lot more than we did when we began. 18 Accordingly, we're in a better position to bring more 19 focus to the scope of the Inquiry. 20 It's important that we keep in mind the 21 specific mandate of the Inquiry at all times; that is, to 22 inquire into and report on events surrounding the death 23 of Dudley George and to make recommendations directed to 24 the avoidance of violence in similar circumstances. 25 When these Hearings began, I stated that I
991 had an interest in achieving a number of other broad 2 goals. And these included a desire to contribute to 3 public understanding of the events in question and the 4 circumstances surrounding them, which I hoped could, in 5 turn, contribute to some healing among those affected. 6 I also expressed my intention to be guided 7 by the same principles that have guided other 8 commissions, namely thoroughness, openness to the public, 9 fairness, and expedition. 10 Throughout this Hearing process, which is 11 the most public aspect of the Inquiry, I believe we've 12 been successful so far in going beneath the surface of 13 the controversy and exploring some of the factors that 14 may have given rise to it. We will continue to do this 15 as other witnesses give their testimony. 16 I hope all parties and, indeed, the public 17 at large will agree that we are also contributing to 18 public understanding and education of the issues through 19 the research and other policy work that we have 20 undertaken. I am confident that the over twenty (20) 21 research papers being commissioned by the Inquiry, as 22 well as our accompanying consultations will add 23 considerably to our knowledge and understanding. 24 While it may be naive to expect that the 25 Inquiry process can contribute to the healing of
1001 longstanding feelings and emotions, I'm of the view that 2 the principles of openness and communication that we are 3 observing can create an environment that facilitates the 4 healing process. 5 We've had some success in achieving this 6 goal, and I want to encourage those affected to use what 7 is learned through the Inquiry as a starting point for 8 what might be achieved beyond the inquiry itself. 9 Our long list of past and future witnesses 10 demonstrates our desire to be thorough and fair. The 11 same is true of our efforts to encourage participation by 12 all parties, this Public Hearing and in the Part 2 13 process. 14 Our efforts to be fair and thorough must 15 be balanced with the goals of conducting the inquiry in a 16 timely and efficient fashion. And I want to recognize 17 the contribution made by all parties to help this process 18 along. I would like to acknowledge the understanding of 19 all Counsel of our need to lengthen our Hearing day as 20 well as their concerted efforts to ensure that cross- 21 examinations are necessary and relevant. 22 My Commission Counsel and I remain 23 committed to an expeditious process and I encourage 24 further constructive discussions among all Counsel as to 25 additional ways in which we may use our time responsibly
1011 and effectively. I believe it is in all our interest to 2 do so. 3 It's challenging for any public inquiry to 4 define and contain its scope, given the many contributing 5 issues and sometimes competing interests that an 6 investigation of this kind can raise. And I think this 7 is particularly true for inquiries such as this one, that 8 is mandated to go beyond simple fact-finding. 9 I am always mindful of the importance of 10 the scope of the Inquiry. This is because it affects the 11 selection of witnesses, the duration of the hearings, the 12 cost of the inquiry and the subject matter of its 13 recommendations. The scope of any inquiry must have 14 limits and sometimes assumptions about these can lead to 15 expectations that extend beyond the actual mandate. 16 Our Order in Council states that the 17 Inquiry is to investigate the events surrounding the 18 death of Dudley George. Among the challenges is to 19 define what the term "surrounding" means. How far back 20 in time is relevant for our mandate? How far forward? 21 We must be sufficiently broad and yet appropriately 22 focussed to achieve our objective and fulfill our 23 mandate. 24 We must be necessarily mindful of the 25 limits of our jurisdiction. We are a provincially
1021 created inquiry and yet we are investigating issues that 2 clearly have federal implications. I have previously 3 stated that we intend to explore both the specific 4 circumstances of the shooting of Dudley George as well as 5 the context in which that shooting occurred - both are 6 key to the Inquiry's fact-finding and policy mandate. 7 Having said that, there is considerable 8 room for interpretation as to what that means. In my 9 view, the Inquiry's mandate is to investigate and report 10 on the events surrounding the death of Dudley George and 11 must remain focussed on the decisions made and the 12 actions taken by all involved prior to and following the 13 shooting in September 1995 outside Ipperwash Provincial 14 Park. 15 In other words, what happened, who was 16 involved and why did the shooting occur? At the 17 conclusion of our investigation I will be making 18 recommendations as to how to avoid violence when similar 19 situations occur in the future; that is situations giving 20 rise to Aboriginal protests that draw the attention of 21 police and government. 22 I also believe that the Inquiry has an 23 obligation to acknowledge that systemic or historic 24 circumstances may have contributed to the actions taken 25 and the decisions made. While many of these
1031 circumstances predate the events that gave rise to this 2 Inquiry or appear to fall outside its jurisdiction or 3 mandate, they shed light on why the events occurred. 4 That's what's meant by context. 5 The obligation to consider context prompts 6 us to examine the larger Canadian experience in areas 7 such a Native Land Treaty Rights, policing practices and 8 the government's role of policing activities. 9 In my report, I expect to consider these 10 issues when making my recommendations. There are two (2) 11 specific issues that have been given considerable 12 attention in the evidence at these Hearings. 13 The first relates to questions regarding 14 the status of the Army Camp land and Provincial Park, the 15 so called sandy parking lot and the corner of land 16 located at the northeast end of the Army Camp. How 17 should this land be described, who owns it, and other 18 related issues? 19 The second issue is that of the 20 recognition and status of the self identified Stoney 21 Pointers in relation to the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 22 It's recognized that these two (2) issues form an 23 important backdrop and context to our work even though 24 they predate the events we've been mandated to 25 investigate.
1041 While I may comment on these issues in my 2 final report, it's unrealistic to expect that this 3 Provincial Inquiry can by itself resolve these long 4 standing questions. Having said that, I'm hopeful that 5 our work can and will contribute to their resolution in a 6 timely fashion and a way that is acceptable to all 7 parties. 8 To this end, although the Federal 9 Government has chosen not to participate as a party to 10 this Inquiry, I expect to comment in my report on the 11 role of the Federal Government in these matters. As the 12 work of the Inquiry progresses, its scope and shape will 13 become clearer. 14 During the next phase of the Inquiry we 15 will be calling emergency response, medical, hospital, 16 and other healthcare witnesses. We'll follow with 17 witnesses from law enforcement agencies, other members of 18 the local community, and finally with witnesses who are 19 civil servants, both federal and provincial and 20 politicians. 21 We still have a way to go. But in my view 22 our work so far has been constructive and, for some, even 23 therapeutic. I'm confident that if we continue in the 24 same spirit, we will reach a successful conclusion. 25 Thank you very much.
1051 Do you want to call your next witness, 2 please? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls 4 Gordon Peters. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 6 Peters. I understand from Counsel that you wish to 7 affirm, sir? 8 MR. GORDON PETERS: Yes, I do. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Would you state your name 10 in full for us, please? 11 MR. GORDON PETERS: Gordon Burton Peters. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Could you speak into the 13 mic for the recorder please, sir, and repeat your name in 14 full? 15 MR. GORDON PETERS: Gordon Burton Peters. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 17 18 GORDON BURTON PETERS, Sworn: 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 21 Q: Mr. Peters, I understand that you are 22 a member of the Delaware of the Thames Nation? 23 A: Yes, I am. 24 Q: Also known as the Moravan of the 25 Thames?
1061 A: Moravian of the Thames. 2 Q: Moravian. Thank you very much. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that's located about fifty-six 5 (56) kilometres southwest of Sarnia, is it? 6 A: Well, a little further than that, but 7 it's -- as the crow flies maybe, but it's in that -- that 8 vicinity. 9 Q: Thank you. What is your current 10 occupation? 11 A: I have a small company called the 12 Centre for Indigenous Sovereignty. 13 Q: When did you found this organization? 14 A: About -- almost eight (8) years ago. 15 Q: What type of services are offered by 16 this centre? 17 A: We offer a variety of services that 18 are related to community development, nation building 19 processes, dispute resolution, strategic planning, those 20 kinds of issues. 21 Q: Okay. And what is your major roles 22 within that organization? 23 A: I'm the president of the company and 24 also the CEO. 25 Q: I understand that in 1995 you held
1071 the position of Regional Chief for Ontario? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Is that a -- an elected position? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: When were you first elected as 6 Regional Chief? 7 A: 1985. 8 Q: How long did you hold that position? 9 A: Twelve (12) years. 10 Q: And when did you hold your first 11 position or post with the Chiefs of Ontario? 12 A: 1981. 13 Q: What position was that? 14 A: I was a member of the executive. 15 Q: And again, is that an elected 16 position? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: How long did you hold that position? 19 A: Four (4) years. 20 Q: So, until your election as Regional 21 Chief of that organization? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Prior to that, did you hold any 24 political or elected positions within the aboriginal 25 community?
1081 A: The one I just identified as part of 2 the executive was as the head of the organization, the -- 3 the Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians. And 4 previous to that I was a band councillor in -- in my 5 community for six (6) years. 6 Q: And as head of the Association of 7 Iroquois and Allied Indians, first of all, did that -- 8 was that position held between 1981 and '85, then? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: All right. And what -- what were the 11 main -- what were the main objectives of that 12 association? 13 A: Originally when it was -- was first 14 born, the main objectives were to do with land claim 15 issues, but over years it broadened out into most of 16 political issues that impacted First Nations. 17 Q: And is that First Nations, in 18 general, or a particular group of First Nations? 19 A: It was particular to the ones that 20 belonged to the organization, but all those issues are 21 similar to all other First Nations. 22 Q: Do you hold any elected or political 23 positions currently? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Do you have any ongoing contact with
1091 the Chiefs of Ontario? 2 A: Yeah, some. 3 Q: What type of contact do you have? 4 A: I've -- I chair some of their -- 5 their Chiefs Assemblies. I've done some contract work 6 for them. 7 Q: All right. Whose interests do the 8 Chiefs of Ontario represent? 9 A: The Chiefs of Ontario is a 10 coordinating body that represents the interests of a 11 hundred and -- well, whatever the current number is -- a 12 hundred and thirty-four (134) First Nations that are 13 there. 14 Q: In Ontario? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what -- what are the -- what is 17 the mandates of the Chiefs of Ontario? 18 A: There's two (2) different bodies that 19 we're talking about. The Chiefs of Ontario is the 20 coordinating body. It has administrative 21 responsibilities in -- in respect to the Office of the -- 22 of the Regional Chief. 23 Q: All right. Perhaps you can describe 24 the -- the governing structure, then as between the -- I 25 understand there's two (2) structures, the Regional
1101 Chief's Office and an executive body? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Yes and no. I will explain it. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 A: First of all, The "Chiefs" is an 7 incorporated body. The Chiefs of Ontario is -- is a -- 8 is an incorporated body that becomes the vehicle to be 9 able to handle money for any work that's done within the 10 Ontario region. 11 Second, there is a body called the 12 Executive, which are made up of members of -- formerly 13 were made up of members of the four (4) political 14 organizations in Ontario, but have now been -- have been 15 expanded to also include representation from the 16 independent First Nations who don't belong to any -- any 17 political organization. And in there is the office of 18 the Regional Chief that's elected by the Chiefs of 19 Ontario that has a role with the Assembly of First 20 Nations. 21 Q: All right. And what -- what is the 22 particular role and responsibilities of the Regional 23 Chief which distinguishes it from the -- that position, 24 from the Executive? 25 A: The role of the Ontario Regional
1111 Chief is to be able to deal with day-to-day political 2 issues that impact all of Ontario First Nations. It's 3 also to be able to liaison and have a role on the 4 national level so that those issues that are dealt with 5 in Ontario are identified and carried to the national 6 forums, and that our positions that we establish with the 7 Ontario regions are also carried to the national forum so 8 that people know what the views and concerns that we have 9 within this region. 10 Q: All right. Now, over your tenure as 11 Regional Chief, which Provincial Governments did you have 12 contact with in that role? 13 A: I think we -- and I don't know for 14 sure whether or not but the first government that we had 15 in Ontario I think that we met with was the Davis 16 government. And then Frank Miller took over from Davis 17 for a period of time. David Peterson was elected and I 18 think there was a coalition government in there at a 19 time, with the NDP. And then the Liberals were elected 20 under their own mandate. Then with the NDP, with -- with 21 Bob Rae. And then with the Conservatives, with -- with 22 Mike Harris. 23 Q: And over the time that you were 24 Regional Chief, did you observe any differences as 25 between the various governments with respect to their
1121 respective approach to resolving aboriginal disputes? 2 A: I guess if we start back in the -- 3 with the Davis government, we were at a time where we 4 were in a building process in -- at those kinds of 5 stages. And I think what was going on at that time was 6 that a lot of people were doing developmental work. I 7 don't recall us having any major disputes at that 8 particular point in time with the government, where 9 police would have been involved. 10 And certainly, as we developed from that 11 stage on and we -- we continued to press governments for 12 recognition of our -- our treaty and inherent rights, 13 there became more and more points of contention between 14 us. 15 But as we went through we established some 16 informal mechanisms to be able to work with, and those 17 were -- those were primarily dialogue. We had meetings, 18 we had discussions, we had other -- other means of being 19 able to bring people to the table that were -- were a 20 part of that process. 21 And then, after the Conservative 22 government got elected, we didn't have any dialogue with 23 them. We would have normally met with the Premier at the 24 beginning of their term, some of the Cabinet members, to 25 have a discussion about relationships. We didn't do that
1131 when the Conservatives got elected in their office in 2 1995. 3 Q: And do you know why that didn't 4 happen? 5 A: Some of it comes from -- from the -- 6 the platform that was carried by the -- by the 7 Conservative government and the blue book, their strategy 8 in terms of the election. 9 And part of that strategy was that people 10 were going to be treated equally, that there was an 11 understanding that -- that what was considered to be 12 minority groups at the time were getting far too much 13 attention and that government should focus primarily on 14 ensuring that the economic future of the -- of the region 15 was -- was taken into effect. And that, you know, again 16 what was termed as minority groups, which we are not a 17 minority group as indigenous people, should not have very 18 much focus. 19 And so based on those assumptions and -- 20 we didn't -- we didn't have any -- any meetings to be 21 able to talk about where we were going to go as -- in a 22 government to government relationship that we had 23 previously established with the NDP government. 24 Q: Now, as Regional Chief or in any of 25 your other capacities, prior to September of 1995, had
1141 you any direct experience as a negotiator or facilitator 2 in relation to First Nation protests or occupations? 3 A: Prior to? 4 Q: Prior to September of '95. 5 A: Yes. I had been involved with the 6 student strikes that took place in the -- in the late 7 '80's. 8 Q: Could you expand on that? 9 A: Post secondary students went on 10 strike. They started at I think it was Lakehead 11 University in -- in Thunder Bay. They proceeded to take 12 their strike to Ottawa. Some buildings were -- were 13 occupied and part of our role was to be able to deal with 14 -- with some of the students and to be able to talk with 15 them, to be able to try to figure out how to get past an 16 impasse. 17 Also met with the Minister of Indian 18 Affairs who said that they wouldn't meet anybody while an 19 occupation was going on but he met with us. And as -- as 20 an alternative party and had discussions with him about 21 how to be able to resolve that issue. And ended up by -- 22 ended up as being one (1) of the occupiers of Indian 23 Affairs buildings in Hull, Quebec. 24 Q: Okay. Have you had any other 25 experience, direct experience, as a negotiator or
1151 facilitator prior to '95? 2 A: We did some work with -- with Meech 3 Lake. And it was a process that we were working with, 4 with the government in Manitoba who didn't want to deal 5 with the Meech Lake Accord and were trying to figure out 6 a way of being able to stop the Accord from being able to 7 go through. 8 It wasn't as much as a -- of a dispute as 9 to -- as to try to figure out how to be able to create a 10 strategy that would allow some of that work to be 11 undertaken; was at Oka; was -- was requested to be able 12 to do some work with the -- with the traditional 13 governments as part of a process of -- of trying to find 14 some solutions. 15 Also did some work -- we were directly 16 into the -- the treatment centre as well as a national 17 executive group to be able to go in and talk to the 18 individuals that were there at the time. So, yeah we 19 have had some -- some of those; was involved with Red 20 Squirrel Road, a logging dispute that Northern Ontario -- 21 Q: And perhaps you could just tell us 22 what that was about and what your role was there? 23 A: That was -- that was more of a 24 supportive role. I went to -- at the request of the 25 First Nations community. We did -- we did some public
1161 relations. We provided information to -- to people. Not 2 only our people but to the Ontario public and the 3 Canadian public about some of the processes that were 4 going on in that area with -- with violations what they 5 understood to be their -- their traditional territories 6 and which we understood as their traditional territories 7 as well. 8 And that logging was going to continue in 9 that area. There were no mechanisms at that stage to go 10 beyond as there had been a court case. And so one (1) of 11 the strategies they embarked upon to try to bring people 12 to the table to talk about how they might resolve it was 13 to be able to stop the -- the logging from moving ahead. 14 And so I went there and one (1) of the 15 things that we did do right on the site there was to be 16 able to talk to the -- to the police. Police came, the 17 commissioner came to that, we spoke with the 18 commissioner, we talked about processes that we might 19 engage in to be able to -- try to be able to resolve the 20 issues. 21 And ended up as well being arrested with 22 the protesters on the road not allowing logging to 23 continue in that territory. 24 Q: And approximately what year was that? 25 Do you recall the -- the name of -- which police
1171 commissioner was it? 2 A: I don't remember either. 3 Q: Or do you remember the police force? 4 A: It was the Ontario Provincial Police 5 that came in. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. 7 A: But the -- but the commissioner knew 8 all of us by name. 9 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Now in relation 10 to your involvement with the Oka matter, could you just 11 expand upon that? You indicated you went to the 12 treatment centre and spoke to some people. What was -- 13 what was your role there specifically? 14 A: My role was specifically to talk to 15 people, to find out what -- what their -- what their, I 16 guess, they expected from other people. We wanted to 17 find out from them exactly what it was that they had 18 intended to be able to do, how long they were going to do 19 what they were doing and to be able to see what kind of 20 support mechanisms could be provided to them to be able 21 to see what kind of role that we were actually going to 22 be able to play, if any. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was the 24 determination in terms of what role, if any, you would 25 play?
1181 A: The role I played from that was that 2 I did eventually go talk to some of the traditional 3 government leaders to be able to ask for their 4 intervention and to be able to -- to see if it was 5 possible for them to be able to do some work in that 6 area, did some public relation stuff around that with the 7 media. 8 Q: And at what stage during -- what -- 9 what stage during the event did this occur; was it during 10 the occupation or was it at some other time? 11 A: It was occupied at the time and I 12 think the OPP were in there at the time. The Army hadn't 13 come in yet at that time. 14 Q: All right. Did you facilitate any 15 discussions with the police? 16 A: No, we didn't. We didn't facilitate 17 any discussions with the police. The -- the police in 18 Quebec had already determined that everyone -- everyone 19 from the -- from the area would have to be removed and 20 they were -- they were moving ahead to be able to carry 21 that out. 22 Q: All right. Under what circumstances 23 will the Regional Chief generally get involved directly 24 in individual First Nation disputes within the province? 25 A: Most of the time there's a request
1191 for the Regional Chief to be able to go into the 2 community, to be able to do some of that work and at 3 times I guess it depends, sometimes there's not a -- the 4 -- the request doesn't come directly. 5 Sometimes it may have gone through their 6 organization to be able to do that and to be able to -- 7 through their organization to be able to direct that I -- 8 I go into a specific community or the Regional Chief goes 9 into a specific community to do something. 10 But generally, that's -- that's some of 11 the processes that were used to be able to -- to get 12 access. 13 Q: All right. And when you say, "a 14 request," is there -- where does the -- does the request 15 have to originate from the aboriginal community as 16 opposed to another community or constituency? 17 A: It had to come from the -- the 18 indigenous community, correct. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Thank you. 20 Now, Commissioner -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm hungry, too. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry. 23 Commissioner, I'm sorry, it's five (5) to 1:00, and 24 before I get into the next area I wonder if we might take 25 the lunch break at this time.
1201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. We'll take the lunch break now until 2:15. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 6 adjourned until 2:15. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 12:57 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 2:13 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 17 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Mr. Peters, when did you first become 21 aware of the existence of any Aboriginal concerns 22 regarding CFB Camp Ipperwash? 23 A: I was quite young. 24 Q: And how did you learn of these 25 concerns?
1211 A: Some of the families used to come to 2 visit in Moraviantown and they -- they spoke of them and 3 spoke of being able to go back to their territory. 4 Q: What was your understanding of the 5 concerns? 6 A: The understanding was that the -- the 7 Military had -- had taken the lands during the war and 8 that they were supposed to return them after the war and 9 they weren't returned. 10 Q: Did you have any involvement prior to 11 1993 in advancing or investigating these Aboriginal 12 concerns? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you have any involvement prior to 15 1993 advancing or investigating any Aboriginal concerns 16 regarding the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 17 A: No. 18 Q: In your early understanding of these 19 concerns did the Park ever arise? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you eventually become involved in 22 Ipperwash-related issues? 23 A: Well, let me re-address that first 24 part because -- 25 Q: Certainly.
1221 A: -- it wasn't -- wasn't specifically 2 named as -- as the Park, but I remember people talking 3 about the -- the lands that -- along the -- along the 4 shore going up towards Grand Bend, that whole area. 5 Q: Okay. Can you be a little more 6 specific with respect to the territory? 7 A: Well, I understood it to be, when 8 they were talking was that there were -- there were lands 9 that -- that belonged to those peoples all the way along 10 that -- the shore. That's -- I always remember the shore 11 line, you know -- 12 Q: Of Lake Huron? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- and in what general area? Can 15 you give me just the parameters? 16 A: I don't know the extent of the inland 17 parameters, but I remember them talking about going -- 18 going up the lake towards -- towards Grand Bend area. It 19 was -- that was a long time ago. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you. I guess my next 21 question was, did you eventually become involved in any 22 Ipperwash-related issues? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And when did you first become 25 involved?
1231 A: Well, there were some -- I don't know 2 -- I don't know what the year was, but I knew that there 3 was a -- there were some people who had put up some -- 4 some trailer or something on a piece of property outside 5 of -- I guess that would be east of the main Base -- main 6 buildings at that time. And -- and individuals that told 7 me that -- that there were a number of things that were 8 happening in that particular area and -- 9 Q: All right. Are you referring to when 10 the occupation of Camp Ipperwash commenced? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Prior to that event, had you any -- 13 well, let me ask you this, what was your initial 14 involvement? 15 A: My initial involvement was just 16 simply to go by -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- and have a look. 19 Q: And did you become involved as -- in 20 your capacity as Regional Chief? 21 A: Later on I was requested to be able 22 to -- I guess, kind of play a -- a mediation role between 23 -- between two (2) parties. 24 Q: Which were the -- which two (2) 25 parties?
1241 A: Which was the -- which was the -- the 2 people from Kettle Point and the people who were within 3 the Army Base at the time. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Between the -- between the Chief and 6 Council and -- and those members that were there. 7 Q: So, the Chief and Council of Kettle 8 and Stony Point Band on the one (1) side -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- and on the one (1) hand -- and 11 some of the people who were from the Stoney Point Group-- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- on the other? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. And do -- do you recall 16 when -- perhaps you can just describe what your -- what 17 your role was with respect to trying to mediate between 18 the two (2) parties. 19 A: I don't remember who actually called 20 me to be able to -- to begin the process, but I know that 21 what occurred was -- was a couple of meetings we sat down 22 and -- and -- and both -- both parties gave a view of -- 23 of their ownership of the land and the relationship of 24 the land, being two (2) councils, being one (1) council, 25 being two (2) councils with one (1) governing body, you
1251 know. 2 So, there were a variety of aspects of 3 what -- what those particular views were and what they 4 were trying to do was, they were trying to figure out to 5 be able to try to bring some reconciliation to -- to 6 where they were at. 7 Q: All right. And what did you 8 understand to be the -- the main issue, if you will, or 9 the main issue that was dividing the two? 10 A: I understood that there were -- there 11 were certain people who said that they -- they held the 12 lands of -- of the Base, which they considered to be 13 their own territory. And they said that prior to -- 14 prior to those lands being taken by the Military that 15 they were a separate community. 16 I also heard from the other -- from the 17 Chief and Council saying that those lands were not 18 separated, they were two (2) communities with one (1) 19 governing body and that they've always -- always 20 functioned in that manner. 21 Q: And did these discussions occur 22 during the course of meetings? 23 A: Yes, they did. 24 Q: And I understand that the meetings 25 occurred sometime after the occupation of the Camp
1261 started? 2 A: Yes, it would have, yes. 3 Q: Was it before the occupation of the 4 built-up area? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: All right. And do you recall what -- 7 what year, then -- the occupation commenced in May of 8 1993 and the take -- occupation of the built-up area was 9 on July 29th, of '95, so can you give me a sense as to 10 when these meeting -- 11 A: It would have probably been in 12 between those two (2) years, probably 1994, around there. 13 I don't remember the specific dates that it was. 14 Q: Oh, okay. Do you recall what season 15 it was? 16 A: I think it started -- I think our 17 dialogue started in the spring. 18 Q: Okay. And how many meetings do you 19 recall being at in this role? 20 A: Two (2), specifically, that I recall. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Although it was on the phone a lot. 23 Q: On the phone a lot as well? 24 A: Yeah, yeah. 25 Q: All right. And where did these two
1271 (2) meetings occur? 2 A: They occurred at the Chiefs of 3 Ontario office. 4 Q: All right. And where is that 5 located? 6 A: In Toronto, it was on 2 College 7 Street. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: The second floor. 10 Q: And were the two (2) meetings -- how 11 much time passed between the two (2) meetings, 12 approximately? I'm just trying to get a sense of the 13 course. 14 A: They were very quick. They -- they 15 weren't -- there wasn't a great of separation between 16 them. 17 Q: All right. Do you recall who was in 18 attendance at these two (2) meetings or any of the people 19 who were in attendance? 20 A: Chief Tom Bressette was there and 21 some councillors. I don't remember -- I don't remember 22 who was there from Stoney Point. I think Maynard George 23 might have been part of that process or -- I can't say 24 for -- for certain who was -- who -- who was there. 25 Q: All right. Would that be Maynard T.
1281 George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 4 Ron George was at any of these meetings? 5 A: I don't recall him being there, but 6 I'll just say that. I don't recall him being there. 7 Q: Okay. Did you take any notes or were 8 any notes taken on your behalf at these meetings? 9 A: That I don't recall either. But I 10 probably took notes because I was responsible for being 11 able to draft something from that. 12 Q: Were you able to locate any of your 13 notes? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. And the focal -- what was the 16 focal point then of these -- these two (2) meetings? 17 A: The focal point was trying to figure 18 out how something could be advanced so that there could 19 be some space that was given between the two (2) parties. 20 At the end of the day one (1) of the issues that was 21 decided was that they should let the research be the -- 22 the guiding force for that. 23 But the research indicated that there -- 24 that there was one group under one (1) governing 25 authority then that's what they would go with. There
1291 were two (2) groups and that's what they would deal with. 2 But it was -- it was -- it was to allow 3 for -- for ongoing research to be able to be conducted. 4 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that -- 5 that part of this was trying to facilitate a working 6 relationship as between the two (2) communities? 7 A: Yes, that's fair. 8 Q: And was an understanding, at least a 9 tentative understanding in relation to setting up the 10 parameters of this working relationship put into writing? 11 A: Yes, it was. 12 Q: I wonder if you would go to Tab 1 of 13 your binder in front of you and it's Inquiry Document 14 Number 900020. It's a -- there's a cover fax sheet from 15 E.E. Hobbs and Associates Limited. 16 And you'll see -- well I'll ask you first, 17 do you know what interests or what purpose E.E. Hobbs and 18 Associates were -- were retained for? 19 A: I understood that Mr. Hobbs had been 20 able to negotiate other settlements in other places. And 21 that in fact he was retained to do some of that work as 22 well. 23 Q: And then at page 2 of that document, 24 there is a document entitled, "Agreement On Working 25 Relationships." It's a draft, it's dated July 13, 1993
1301 and it appears to be three (3) pages. Now is this -- 2 have you seen this document before? 3 A: Yes, I have. 4 Q: Is this the -- the tentative 5 agreement that was being discussed during the course of 6 your two (2) meetings? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I just note that the date of this 9 document is July 13, 1993 and the date of the fax is July 10 14th, 1993. Does that refresh your memory at all as to 11 when these meetings likely occurred? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: It says on the -- it says on there 15 1993 but I can't be certain and -- 16 Q: All right. 17 A: -- but probably around that time 18 then. 19 Q: Okay, thank you. And I note that the 20 7th preamble states: 21 "And whereas Grand Chief Gordon Peters 22 has agreed to have the Chiefs of 23 Ontario participate in discussions in 24 order to facilitate the maintenance of 25 strong collective decisions within the
1311 traditional unity and government of the 2 Chippewa of Kettle Point and Stoney 3 Point." 4 Was that a fairly accurate representation 5 of what you had agreed to do? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Thank you. I would like to make that 8 the next exhibit please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-291, Your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-291. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-291: Document Number 9000020, July 13 14/93 fax from Mr. Ernie 14 Hobbs, E.E. Hobbs and 15 Associates Limited to Mr. E. 16 Anthony Ross Re: "Chippewa 17 Draft Agreement" July 13/93. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 20 Q: Now just so that I understand, do you 21 recall whether this agreement was -- was produced in 22 between the meetings, the two (2) meetings or after the 23 two (2) meetings; do you have any recollection about the 24 timing of this in relation? 25 A: It was produced in between the two
1321 (2) meetings. 2 Q: Okay. So as a result of discussions 3 of the first meeting? 4 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. And I don't remember 5 whether we started from scratch with a draft or we 6 already part of a draft or, you know. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I remember actually we hadn't got to 9 the draft. 10 Q: Fair enough. And do you know whether 11 or not this draft agreement was ever finalized and 12 accepted by both parties? 13 A: No, it wasn't. 14 Q: Do you recall why it was not 15 ratified? 16 A: Question of who had ability to be 17 able to sign the document. 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall which party 19 had difficulty with -- with that? In other words which 20 party was -- 21 A: It was questioned by -- by Kettle and 22 Stony Point whether or not the Stoney Pointers -- at the 23 time the Stoney Point Group had any -- any ability to be 24 able to sign the document. 25 Q: Okay. I wonder if you would next, go
1331 to Tab 2 in your binder and it's Inquiry Document number 2 9000030. It's a -- it appears to be a letter from Ronald 3 George to Chiefs of Ontario to your attention dated July 4 27, 1993, and it would appear to set out some concerns 5 raised by Mr. George on behalf of the Stoney Point Group; 6 do you recall receiving this letter? 7 A: Vaguely. 8 Q: All right. I wonder if we could make 9 that the next exhibit? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-292, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-292: Document Number 9000030, 13 Letter from Ronald C. George 14 Law Office to Chiefs of 15 Ontario, Attention: Gord 16 Peters, July 27/93, Re: 17 Agreement on working 18 relationships, Kettle 19 Point/Stoney Point. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: And what was your understanding with 23 respect to the capacity that Mr. George was acting in 24 when he wrote this letter? 25 A: I said, "vaguely," so I don't
1341 remember the capacity that he was in. As I say, I don't 2 recall whether he was at the meetings. 3 Q: Okay. Now, this -- you'll see in the 4 first paragraph, there is an indication that there was a 5 meeting on July 22, 1993, between members of the Kettle 6 Point and Stoney Point councils held at your office and - 7 - and the Stoney Point community then met on July 26th, 8 1993. 9 Do you have any reason to dispute the 10 accuracy of -- of the timing of the meeting suggested 11 here with respect to the meeting at your office? 12 A: No, I don't, not at all. 13 Q: And it would appear that -- that some 14 amendments were being proposed on behalf of the Stoney 15 Point community? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And also it indicates 18 that the individuals at Stoney Point had not, in fact, 19 ratified the agreement. Does that refresh your memory at 20 all as to -- 21 A: It was not ratified by either party. 22 Q: Okay. And Mr. George is putting out 23 here the reasons -- at least some of the principles which 24 the Stoney Point community wished to have honoured and 25 acknowledged as -- as part of any working relationship
1351 reflected at page 2? 2 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 3 Q: All right. That the Stoney Point 4 Band be given full band status pursuant to the provisions 5 of the Indian Act; that the Stoney Point Reserve Number 6 43 be returned to the Stoney Point Band, compensation be 7 made to the Stoney Point Band, compensation be made to 8 the Kettle Point Band and throughout the process, the 9 membership of the Stoney Point Band, particularly the 10 elders, will not be encouraged to leave Stoney Point. 11 Now, did these points become the subject 12 of the next meeting? 13 A: Well, I can't tell you if there was 14 another meeting because I don't recall whether there was 15 or not. 16 Q: Okay, fair enough. In any event, did 17 you understand these to be the primary concerns of the 18 Stoney Point Group and -- and what they wished to have 19 recognized? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you. After the end of these 22 meetings, then, in the summer of 1993 or thereabouts, did 23 either branch of the Chiefs of Ontario have any further 24 involvement in the Stoney Point -- or in the Ipperwash 25 dispute with respect to the -- the disagreement between
1361 Stoney Point and the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 2 A: I -- I don't think so. I don't think 3 we had any at all. 4 Q: Okay. Did you, personally, visit the 5 -- the former Stoney Point Reserve Number 43 after the 6 occupation started? 7 A: I believe I was there once. 8 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 9 of visiting there? 10 A: To visit. 11 Q: Just to visit? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Was it -- was it in your official 14 capacity? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you have occasion to attend at 17 the built-up area after the occupation by the Stoney 18 Point Group on July 29th, 1995, but prior to the 19 occupation of the Park? 20 A: I think I was in there once. I think 21 I went in there with Bob Antone once. 22 Q: And can you recall what the purpose 23 of that was? 24 A: I think they were trying to -- they 25 were having some kind of an organizational meeting. They
1371 were trying to get organized around some of the issues. 2 Q: Okay. Organizational meetings 3 surrounding what issues? 4 A: Among themselves. 5 Q: So internal governance type -- 6 governance-type issues? I'm just trying to understand. 7 A: I wouldn't call it internal 8 governance but, you know, trying to organize themselves. 9 And, you know, there's families, different families and 10 different groups that were there and they were just 11 simply trying to get themselves organized and how they 12 were going to deal with things. 13 Q: And were you there in your official 14 capacity as Regional Chief? 15 A: No. I was -- I was there as a friend 16 of Bob Antone who was going... 17 Q: All right. Were you present on the 18 day that the built-up area was taken over? 19 A: No, I wasn't. 20 Q: Were you present on the day that -- 21 that the occupiers first entered the Army Camp? 22 A: No, I wasn't. 23 Q: During any of your visits to the 24 former Stoney Point Indian Reserve 43, did you see any 25 guns present?
1381 A: No, I haven't. No, I didn't. 2 Q: During the course of your visits, 3 were you aware as to whether or not there continued to be 4 any tensions or lack of working relationship between the 5 Stoney Point Group and the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 6 A: Yes, it was ongoing and it was -- 7 because it was in the media all the time. 8 Q: Okay. And did that give you any 9 concern with respect to what was happening at Camp 10 Ipperwash? 11 A: I didn't have a role in that process. 12 I wasn't formally invited to participate in any -- any 13 other kinds of processes that they were -- they were 14 trying to establish. 15 Q: All right. Did you have any advance 16 notice that members of the Stoney Point group were 17 intending to occupy the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 18 A: No, I didn't. 19 Q: Were you consulted in advance at all 20 with respect to possible plans to occupy the Park? 21 A: No, I wasn't. 22 Q: Did you attend at the Park at anytime 23 between September 4th and 6th, 1995? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: Did you speak with anyone concerning
1391 the occupation of the Park between September 4th and 6th, 2 1995? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: Do you recall where you were during 5 the course of those days in terms of what -- what city or 6 province you were in? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No, okay. Had you -- had you been 9 called upon by any person -- sorry -- had you been called 10 upon by any prior Aboriginal party to negotiate or 11 facilitate the resolution of an occupation? 12 A: No, not in -- not in those -- in 13 those kinds of terms. 14 Q: All right. Similarly, have you been 15 called upon by any police force or government to assist 16 in resolution of occupation? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: What -- what entity? 19 A: The student -- the student 20 occupations that went on in the late '80's. 21 Q: Who -- who invited you or requested 22 that you assist? 23 A: We were -- we were asked -- well, 24 actually, the entire assembly was asked, the Open 25 Assembly was asked by both the -- by both the students to
1401 get involved and also by government to get involved -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- and take a role in trying to help 4 resolve some of the issues. 5 Q: Fair enough. Had you been called 6 upon by any of the parties, whether it be the -- the OPP 7 or the Band, the government or the Stoney Point group, to 8 render assistance in resolving the occupation of the 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park, would you have been available 10 to render assistance? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what assistance do you think you 13 could have rendered in this particular case? 14 A: Hindsight is pretty good, I guess, in 15 -- in terms of the kinds of things that we look at but -- 16 Q: Certainly. 17 A: -- I think -- I think the first part 18 of any kind of resolution that people have is ability to 19 be able to talk. You can go back and forth and talk to 20 the parties to be able to see what's going on. 21 You can -- you can see if there's any room 22 for any movement, anything that might -- might help you 23 to be able to get any kind of movement at all, you know, 24 that -- that would be the first thing that we'd normally 25 do in any place.
1411 Q: And based on your -- your experience 2 and your prior involvement with this group and with the 3 Kettle and Stony Point Band, do you think that you would 4 have had the ability to, in fact, talk to the people 5 there, at the Park? 6 A: I would have been able to talk to 7 them. I don't know if they would have been able -- they 8 would have taken any advice I would have given them. 9 Q: All right. Well, that's what I'm 10 interested in knowing whether -- 11 A: But I did -- but I did have access to 12 them and I -- I didn't have the ability to be able to 13 talk with them. 14 Q: When did you first become aware of 15 the fact that the -- that certain members of the Stoney 16 Point group had commenced occupying the Park? 17 A: It was the day after they went into 18 the Park. 19 Q: So about September the 5th then? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And -- and by what means did you 22 learn of this? 23 A: I think it was in the media. 24 Somebody called me and asked me to read some articles or 25 -- I know I was contacted anyway by somebody. I don't
1421 remember who. 2 Q: All right. Do you recall what your 3 reaction was when you found out about this event? 4 A: No. I don't. I don't recall at all. 5 Q: When did you first become aware of 6 the physical confrontation between the police and the 7 occupiers which occurred in the evening of September the 8 6th, 1995? 9 A: Early in the morning the next day. 10 Q: Early the September 7th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how did you first learn about the 13 fact of the confrontation? 14 A: I think the first -- the first time I 15 heard was that I got a call from a reporter asking me to 16 comment on -- on the notion that the Premier had said, 17 Get them 'F' ing Indians out of the Park. It was fairly 18 early in the morning. 19 Q: And as a result of becoming aware 20 then of -- of the confrontation what, if anything, did 21 you do? 22 A: Well, I -- I started heading for -- 23 for this area. 24 Q: And do you recall where you were 25 coming from?
1431 A: I don't know. I was -- I was coming 2 up from around New Market. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: New Market area. 5 Q: Did you speak with anybody else aside 6 from the reporter during -- prior to your arriving to the 7 Ipperwash area? 8 A: I got a call -- I got a call from 9 somebody from the -- from the Kettle Point Band. 10 Q: Do you recall who? 11 A: I don't know. I remem -- I think it 12 was -- I think it was Paul, I don't remember what his 13 last name is. 14 Q: Okay. And what did you learn from 15 this telephone conversation? 16 A: I learned that -- I learned that -- 17 that people were in the Park; that police -- police had 18 built up a substantial force around there and that they 19 were still there and that there was a threat of another 20 invasion by the police into the -- into the Park and the 21 Base. 22 Q: And why did you determine that you 23 should head down towards the Ipperwash area? 24 A: Anytime there's a police action, 25 anytime anything occurs of that kind of nature, it's -- a
1441 lot of people will head to those places and I didn't head 2 there in an official capacity in the first part. I 3 headed there because, you know, that's -- that's what 4 people do, you know. We try to figure out what they can 5 do for assistance and what might be possible. 6 Q: And approximately what time did you 7 arrive in the Ipperwash area? 8 A: It was some time mid morning. 9 Q: Okay. And where did you go to first? 10 A: I don't know. I don't remember. 11 Q: Okay, fair enough. 12 A: I remember there was a fire on the 13 road. And I don't know if I went into the Band office 14 first, or -- I think the Band office was closed. I think 15 I might have went into the restaurant that was in the 16 mall. 17 Q: Oh, yes. At -- 18 A: And then from there I went back over 19 to the -- I went over to the Park. 20 Q: Okay. Over to the Park itself? 21 A: Yeah. I went into the -- I went into 22 the -- I went into the barracks and from the barracks 23 they took me to the back of the Park. And they -- they 24 showed me the events that have taken place and they -- 25 they gave me their account of what occurred that evening.
1451 Q: All right. I -- I wonder if you 2 would go to Tab 28, it's Inquiry Document Number 1002419. 3 And this appears to be log created by the OPP, and if you 4 would look at -- well, it's marked as page 309, but it's 5 the second page of this production -- at 16:00 hours, the 6 entry at 16:00 hours indicates: 7 "Miles Bressette, First Nation 8 Constable from Kettle Point is at the 9 above location with negotiators Gord 10 Peters and Marvin Connors. Everyone 11 has left the scene." 12 And the above location appears to be 13 referring to the command post. 14 A: Excuse me, where are you at? 15 Q: I'm at Tab 28. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Second page. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: And the entry is 16:00 hours. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Now, do you recall being at the -- 22 the command post with Miles Bressette and Marvin Connors 23 at about four o'clock on September the -- the 7th. Oh, 24 I'm sorry. 25 A: This --
1461 Q: Excuse me, I've taken you to -- I've 2 jumped too far in the chronology. 3 A: It's September 16th. 4 Q: My apologies. I'll address that a 5 little bit later, excuse me. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: Okay. Let's go back to -- to the -- 8 the Army Camp, then. Did you have to through any 9 checkpoint in order to get into the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Did you have -- and did - 12 - did you have to have clearance to go into the -- the 13 Army Camp? 14 A: As a I recall yes, I did. 15 Q: All right. And approximately what 16 time would that have been? 17 A: I would have probably gone in there 18 probably right before lunch, around that time. 19 Q: All right. What were your 20 observations when -- with respect to the emotional state 21 of the occupiers when you entered the Army Camp? 22 A: Very agitated. A lot of people were 23 in a -- in a very excited state. There was -- there were 24 -- they believed that the OPP were going to attack 25 again --
1471 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- and they -- they believed that the 3 OPP were not only going to deal with the Park, but they 4 were going to take everybody out of the barracks as well. 5 Q: And what was the basis upon which you 6 formed this impression? 7 A: From some of the dialogue that -- 8 that people had indicated. 9 Q: Was anybody with you at the time of - 10 - of your entry into the Army Camp? 11 A: No, I was alone. 12 Q: Okay. How long did you remain there? 13 A: I don't know, maybe an hour; maybe an 14 hour and a half. 15 Q: All right. And did you, at that 16 point, make any determinations as to what your next steps 17 would be? 18 A: I went back to -- I went back to -- 19 to Kettle Point. There was a meeting that was called in 20 the afternoon. Ovide was arriving and people were 21 getting together to be able to determine what needed to 22 be done. 23 Q: All right. Did you attend that 24 meeting? 25 A: Yes, I did.
1481 Q: And what transpired during the course 2 of that meeting? 3 A: There was a number of things that 4 transpired. I think it was at that meeting where -- 5 where the Lands Claims gentleman came in and indicated 6 that there was no -- there was no burial ground in that 7 area. There were a number of things that were presented. 8 Also -- also basic information on -- on what had happened 9 that morning and the need to be able to -- to start being 10 able to get some political action going. 11 Q: Do you recall who the Land Claims 12 gentleman was or where he was from? 13 A: No, he was a -- he was a non- 14 indigenous man. 15 Q: Okay. And in terms of political 16 actions, did you determine as to whether any political 17 actions were warranted on behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario 18 at that time? 19 A: It was -- it was determined that we 20 need to be able to take immediate action based on the 21 notion that -- that the potential threat that people felt 22 that the OPP were going to go back into the Camp and into 23 the Base, and -- and also based on -- on the fact that 24 there appeared to be more -- more police coming into the 25 area.
1491 Q: And did you, in fact, take any 2 immediate action politically on behalf of the Chiefs of 3 Ontario on the 7th? 4 A: I recall making telephone calls and 5 one (1) of the things that I -- I did was I tracked down 6 the lawyer that was supposed to do the injunction. I 7 called the ONAS (phonetic) offices. I -- I was told that 8 he was at home, that he wasn't -- he wasn't being able to 9 be reached. 10 After a short conversation with the 11 individual, they gave me his home number. Called him at 12 home. I asked him about the -- the injunction and he 13 told me that they didn't have an injunction, that they 14 were going to the court the following morning. 15 And I asked him -- I asked him to cease 16 and desist his activities because people felt very 17 clearly that if the injunction process was pursued that - 18 - that the police would act again. 19 Q: And based on your conversation with 20 this individual, did you form any impression as to 21 whether notwithstanding your advice, they were going to 22 proceed with an injunction? 23 A: No, I got the distinct impression 24 that the plan was already in place to be able to go ahead 25 and get it.
1501 Q: All right. Do you recall the name of 2 the lawyer? 3 A: Mr. McCabe. 4 Q: Did you make any other contact with 5 members of the Provincial Government that day? 6 A: We tried to. But we were 7 unsuccessful. 8 Q: And what attempts did you make? 9 A: We called through -- we called 10 through to various ministries. We also called back 11 through to our offices in Toronto and tried to get people 12 to be able to call through and we started writing letters 13 getting information together to be able to start 14 providing correspondence. 15 Q: Did you cause a letter to be written 16 to Premier Mike Harris on that day? 17 A: Yeah I think it was in the afternoon 18 of that day. 19 Q: I would like to show you a document. 20 It's Inquiry Document Number 1009973. And the first page 21 is the Minister's request followed by a fax sheet to the 22 Honourable Mike Harris followed by a letter dated 23 September 7, 1995 addressed to the Honourable Mike 24 Harris. And it appears to have you signature; is that 25 your signature?
1511 A: Yes, it is. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 3 this the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-293, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-293: Document Number 1009973, 7 Letter to Premier Mike Harris 8 from Chiefs of Ontario, 9 September 7/95 Re: Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 13 Q: And what were you requesting of the 14 Premier on September 7th, 1995? 15 A: For his direct intervention to be 16 able to cease and desist and get a meeting set up so that 17 people could come and start to talk about how to deal 18 with the matter that was currently before us. 19 Q: Did you receive a response from the 20 Premier or anyone on his behalf, to this letter? 21 A: I don't believe so. 22 Q: On that day did you receive any 23 response? 24 A: I don't -- I don't recall getting a 25 response.
1521 Q: All right. Did you have any 2 communication with the Premier on that day? 3 A: None. I think -- I think the only 4 people we were able to contact were some of the -- we 5 tried to get a hold of -- we tried to get a hold of their 6 -- of the -- of the scheduling secretary and other people 7 to be able to find out where he was and what he was doing 8 and how we could get access to him. 9 That wasn't done by me directly. That was 10 done through the -- the Chiefs of Ontario office. 11 Q: All right, thank you. I wonder -- I 12 would like to show you one (1) further document. It's 13 Inquiry Document Number 14000060. And this is a letter 14 dated September 29, 1995 addressed to Chief Gordon 15 Peters, and it appears to be from Michael B. Harris, MPP, 16 from the Premier of Ontario. 17 Do you recall receiving this letter? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And was this a response to the letter 20 that you wrote? 21 A: I could only assume so. 22 Q: Okay. And what was the message that 23 you took from the Premier's letter? 24 A: Well, I guess, first of all, when you 25 start at the top of this, you know, it's -- it's now
1531 twenty (20) what twenty-two (22) days later that we'd 2 written to him. And -- and a person has been shot and 3 killed and other people have been wounded. And -- and 4 you get a letter twenty-two (22) days later saying as you 5 know I've -- I met with the Assembly of First Nations, 6 Ovide Mercredie. It wasn't that he met with him, he was 7 forced to meet with him, because they had a sit-in at his 8 office in order to be able to meet with him. 9 The same procedure, you know, they 10 wouldn't negotiate with the occupiers until they leave 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park. That didn't stop them from 12 being able to talk to other people, you know. There are 13 other solutions that could have been generated in other 14 ways other than having to be able to deal with people who 15 were inside the -- the barracks and the Park. 16 And I -- I thought that -- I thought that 17 this was a very closed letter, it was -- it was meant to 18 cut off communication. It was meant to say there's 19 nothing that I can do about the situation and it's now a 20 -- a police matter and it will be restored -- it will be 21 -- only be dealt with by the police and that let's get on 22 to something else differently. Let's get on with some 23 economics and let's get on with some job creation and 24 let's not even talk about this anymore, you know. 25 Q: I'd like -- I'd like to make this the
1541 next exhibit, please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-294, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-294: Document Number 14000060, 5 Letter to Chief Gordon Peters 6 from Premier Mike Harris, Re: 7 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: Did you have -- did you also cause 11 certain statements to be released to -- to the Aboriginal 12 community on behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario on September 13 the 7th, with respect to this matter? 14 A: Yes, I did, partly because we needed 15 to respond to the media. The first -- the first thing 16 that we heard from the media was that -- that people in - 17 - in the Park had fired upon the police and the police 18 returned fire. And when we went through the Park and we 19 -- we talked to everybody it was really clear that they 20 had no weapons and that -- and that it was the police who 21 -- who fired. 22 So part of what we were trying to do 23 immediately was trying to get a message out to our 24 communities that, first of all, that this -- about the -- 25 the facts of which had taken place, but also about
1551 requesting assistance. 2 Q: And you said that when you went 3 through the Park it was clear to you that there had been 4 no weapons. Now, can you just advise me as to the basis 5 upon which you came to that conclusion on September the 6 7th? 7 A: I asked. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I asked and I was told that there 10 were no weapons that were in the Park -- no guns that 11 were in the Park. 12 Q: Okay. And would you -- would you 13 please go to Tab 6 of your binder, it's Inquiry Document 14 number 1011862 and it's a letter dated September 7, 1995, 15 to all First Nations in Ontario. It appears to have your 16 signature; is that your signature at the bottom of the 17 page? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: All right. And attached to it is a 20 list of the Cabinet -- the Ontario Cabinet Ministers with 21 handwritten numbers and then a bulletin -- a two (2) page 22 bulletin attached to that entitled, "Incident at 23 Ipperwash." 24 Is this a package that you caused to be 25 sent to all First Nations in Ontario?
1561 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what was the purpose of sending 3 this particular package to the First Nations? 4 A: Well, if you -- if you believe the 5 media and their story, then it -- then you believe only 6 one (1) part of the story. And in order to be able to 7 get some information out to the communities that was -- 8 that was directed from our side of the table and being 9 able to understand the situation from our point of view, 10 then you would have some balanced reporting within the 11 communities. 12 So, the -- the information gets sent down, 13 the request for assistance, the -- the request to try to 14 politically motivate the government to be able to become 15 involved in this issue, to be able to end things and now 16 to be able to withdraw the police, to look at ways of 17 resolving some of the issues. 18 All those kinds of things are all bundled 19 up in the -- in the one (1) package. And -- and we felt 20 that there was -- we felt that there was an immediate 21 need for people to be able to do something, to be able to 22 demonstrate their concern and to be able to demonstrate 23 that this was unacceptable action by any government at 24 any stage of our -- of our relationship. 25 Q: And so the purpose then, of this
1571 bulletin was to -- to impart -- at least to ask the First 2 Nations to become involved on a political level? 3 A: Yes, and support, I mean, I -- I 4 think what happens in any -- in any kind of situation you 5 ask for support because people are coming in from all 6 over the place and already there were people that were 7 already there and so you have to be able to feed them. 8 There's things that are required and so that's generally 9 what you ask for, for support from people and that's what 10 they provide. 11 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 12 next exhibit, please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-295, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-295: Document Number 1011862, 16 September 7/05 letter to all 17 First Nations in Ontario from 18 Gordon Peters, Ontario 19 Regional Chief. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: And did you also cause any press 23 statements to be released on behalf of the Chiefs of 24 Ontario on September the 7th, 1995? 25 A: I imagine so, there -- there were a
1581 lot of press that were there. There were a lot of -- 2 there were a lot of media, there were a lot of people 3 that were there. And so it was a constant need to be 4 able to address the media to -- to reflect the point of 5 view that was coming from -- from the indigenous people. 6 Q: All right. And why did you determine 7 that that was an important message to get out to the 8 media? 9 A: Well, there were two (2) things that 10 were going on. First of all, when I got invited to come 11 into the community, there was a clear role that was 12 played between -- between Ovide and myself. Ovide took 13 on more of the political stuff, I took on the grass roots 14 stuff. I worked with the people, I went with the 15 peacekeepers, I -- I was part of negotiating. I did all 16 those kinds of things as an ongoing basis. 17 And so I had information, I had access to 18 information. And it was -- it was necessary for us to be 19 able to get that information out so that, not only our 20 people but -- but the public could hear from us what -- 21 what we understood and what we knew about the situation. 22 Q: All right. And would you look at the 23 document at Tab 9 of your binder, it's Inquiry Document 24 1006430, and it's a news release from the Chiefs of 25 Ontario dated September 7, 1995, entitled, "Chiefs of
1591 Ontario condemn killings at Ipperwash Park." It's, in 2 fact, a one (1) page document, it just comes from a 3 multi-page production. 4 And is this the news release that you 5 authorized to be released on behalf of the Chiefs of 6 Ontario that day? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: All right. I'd like to make that the 9 next exhibit, please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-296, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-296: Document Number 1006430, 13 September 7/95, Chiefs of 14 Ontario News Release "Chiefs 15 of Ontario Condemn Killings 16 at Ipperwash Park." 17 18 THE WITNESS: I think you'll notice that 19 immediately we started to call for an inquiry and it was 20 necessary, because we're all knowledgeable and -- and 21 understand the -- the process of the SIU. And right from 22 the beginning we never felt it was the appropriate 23 vehicle to be able to -- to deal with the situation, and 24 that we had never -- we had never experienced this 25 before. And we felt that -- very strongly, that there
1601 should be an inquiry immediately to be able to deal with 2 this matter. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: All right. And I note that the 6 second-last paragraph of this production P-296 indicated 7 that: 8 "Chief Peters stressed the need to meet 9 with Federal and Provincial Cabinet 10 Ministers to discuss this formation of 11 alternative mechanisms to resolve 12 disputes such as these. Quote, 'It's 13 time that the Federal and Provincial 14 Governments start to seriously consider 15 how they can address occurrences such 16 as this without killing our people,' 17 close quote, he said." 18 Now, firstly, is that -- is that quote 19 attributed to you properly? 20 A: Yes, it is. And I guess by the 21 letter we kind of serious, we said, "to discuss formation 22 of alternative mechanisms," twice. 23 Q: Right. I -- 24 A: So, there's a little bit of a -- 25 Q: -- I saw that. And what were you
1611 getting at when you made this statement; was it specific 2 to Ipperwash or something else? 3 A: Well, we had just come through -- we 4 had just come through all these protests. We come to the 5 student -- the student demonstrations, where police were 6 involved. We come through Oka, where the police and the 7 Army were involved, you know and now, you know, we're at 8 -- we're at Ipperwash, Gustafson is going on. There were 9 no formal mechanisms in place. 10 There were informal mechanisms that were 11 in place, where people would talk, you know, where people 12 would be contacted, where information would be sought, 13 where clarification would be required. All of those 14 kinds of things would take place normally in -- in any 15 given situation. 16 But what -- what we started to be able to 17 call for was let's figure out how to be able to build 18 some kind of mechanism so that this kind of thing never 19 occurs again -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- you know, it was that important to 22 be able to do it formally. 23 Q: So, in other words, the prior 24 negotiations were done on an ad hoc basis but you -- your 25 position of the Chiefs of -- of Ontario was that when
1621 this type of dispute occurs there should be a formal 2 mechanism that facilitates resolution? 3 A: Yeah. There -- there is a formal -- 4 there was a formal internal process that was created 5 within government about how they would respond. A number 6 of -- of ministers who would gather, they would discuss 7 the issue, da da da da, you know, and -- and how they 8 would deal with that. But there was no formal mechanism 9 between ourselves and government. 10 Informal, because we met, we talked, we 11 tried to figure things out, you know, and what might be 12 the best approaches to certain areas. But nothing that 13 would -- we could say was, when something occurred, 14 here's how it's going to be dealt with. 15 Q: All right. And when you say, 16 "between us and the government," do you mean the 17 mechanism between the Chiefs of Ontario and the 18 government or some other entity? 19 A: Between indigenous people in general, 20 because we're only one (1) -- one (1) element of the 21 Assembly of First Nation, which stretches all the way 22 across the country. 23 Q: All right. And is this the proposal 24 that -- that you had put forward before this event? 25 A: Well, we have -- we have tried, years
1631 prior, to put all kinds of -- and we have put all kinds 2 of proposals on the table to create all kinds of 3 solutions to issues, to working relationships, to create 4 dispute resolution mechanisms, all kinds of areas and 5 issues that we have tried to address. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And even just prior to that, in the 8 Charlottetown Accord process of the constitutional 9 discussions, we also looked for mechanisms in areas that 10 could be used between various jurisdictions to resolve 11 issues that might arise. 12 And so we were constantly trying to find 13 those kinds of mechanisms because we were always at the - 14 - at the will of governments who -- who could 15 unilaterally determine to take action. 16 Q: And was there any specific proposal 17 on the table with the Ontario Government at the time of 18 the Park occupation, in other words, in the September 19 4th, '95 time frame? 20 A: We had created an arrangement with 21 the -- with the Ontario Government prior to the 22 Conservative government coming in. It was called the 23 Statement of Political Relationships and how we were 24 going to negotiate, how we were going to build 25 relationships, but we hadn't built the formal mechanism
1641 to be able to resolve disputes. 2 The only mechanisms that we had, we -- we 3 had -- we had a process called the -- the Tripartite 4 Forum or the Indian -- Indian Commission of Ontario where 5 issues were brought into that kind of forum for 6 discussion. But -- but the only forums that we had, that 7 we created as we went along, bilateral processes between 8 both the Province and the Federal Government to be able 9 to try to work things out. 10 Q: All right. In the statement of 11 political relationships that you had in place was that 12 still in place in -- on September the 4th of '95? 13 A: I don't think it's ever been 14 rescinded by any government, but in practical terms it 15 wasn't on the table. 16 Q: Okay. All right. Do you have a copy 17 of the Statement of Political Relationships that you're 18 referring to? 19 A: I don't have one with me. 20 Q: All right. Would you be able to 21 obtain a copy? 22 A: I imagine the Chiefs of Ontario would 23 have one. 24 Q: All right. Thank you. Were you 25 present at a conference which apparently took place on
1651 September the 7th, 1995 with various First Nations 2 leaders? 3 A: Yes, I was. 4 Q: And who initiated this call; whose 5 idea was it? 6 A: It was part of a strategy that came 7 out of that -- that meeting we had in early afternoon. 8 Q: At the -- at the Stony and Kettle 9 Point Reserve? 10 A: Yeah. It was at the school. I think 11 we were in the school, in fact. 12 Q: And what was the purpose of this 13 call? 14 A: Information, it was always necessary 15 to get people informed. As I said, the communique is one 16 (1) thing, but being able to talk to people and allow 17 them to ask questions is another thing. 18 And so -- so that people would understand 19 what was happening and also to urge them to be able to 20 talk to their communities and get them involved in being 21 able to send faxes into government, to be able to make 22 calls to their local MP's, anything they could do to be 23 able to -- to create political awareness of this issue. 24 Q: All right. And would you go to Tab 25 75 of your binder, please?
1661 A: 75? 2 Q: 75. It's the very last -- it should 3 be the very last tab of your binder. Do you -- do you 4 have Tab 75 there? It's -- the -- the cover sheet is 5 from the Assembly of First Nations dated September 7, 6 1995. There's a memorandum, a notice, and then there's - 7 - there appears to be notes of a conference call dated 8 September 7, 1995, with various participants, including 9 yourself. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And did you have an 12 opportunity to review this transcript or at least these 13 notes prior to -- to today? 14 A: Yes, I have. 15 Q: And did they -- do they generally 16 reflect accurately what transpired during the course of 17 that telephone conversation to the best of your 18 recollection? 19 A: Yeah. I -- I went through it and 20 those are -- those are generally the things that 21 transpired. 22 Q: All right. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 24 this document the next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-297, Your Honour. Do
1671 you have a document number on that one, Ms. Vella. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I -- no, I don't have 3 an Enquiry Document Number on this particular one. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 8 This is Inquiry Document Number 9000268. I'm also 9 advised it's Exhibit P-252. So perhaps you don't need to 10 mark this one as an exhibit as well. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. Strike that one, 12 Your Honour. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 16 Q: Now what was your particular role at 17 this call? 18 A: What's my role? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: This is in the morning as I recall. 21 This is a -- this is a -- this is trying to get some of 22 the Ontario leaders of the Provincial/Territorial 23 organizations updated and trying to get -- I think also 24 we had the national -- and the National Executive come 25 across the country.
1681 It was a call -- it was a call that was 2 set up after Ovide had spoken to Tom again in the morning 3 as understood that. And the need to be able to -- to 4 clarify what needed to be done, some of the things that 5 needed to be done. 6 Q: All right. And I wonder if you could 7 go to page 4 of that -- of those notes. And there is a 8 statement that's attributed to you, as follows: 9 "The Minister of Natural Resources 10 called me for a meeting today. I've 11 been trying for a meeting with him for 12 a long time. Now he wants advice." 13 And first of all this is still September 14 the 7th, did you receive a -- a call from the Minister of 15 Natural Resources on the 7th? 16 A: If I did it would've probably come 17 through our office. 18 Q: All right. And you make -- you make 19 the comment -- do you recall what it was that the 20 Minister wanted to meet with you about? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: Did you in fact have a meeting with 23 the Minister at or around this time? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: And you make a comment:
1691 "I've been trying for a meeting with 2 him for a long time. Now he wants 3 advice." 4 Does that refresh your memory, at all, as 5 what -- 6 A: We were trying to meet with him. We 7 were trying to -- there was a number of outstanding 8 issues that we were trying to address with -- with the 9 government. One (1) of them was the -- was the closure 10 of -- of negotiations around the Williams Treaty. 11 They shot that -- there were a number of 12 other incidents that had gone on with the MNR and we were 13 trying to get -- we were trying to get a meeting 14 established and we weren't getting any place. 15 Q: Okay. All right. Do you recall 16 whether you had any -- any meetings or contact with any 17 Provincial Ministers in or around this time, the early 18 part of the aftermath of the shooting? 19 A: I don't recollect any meetings. I 20 don't -- I don't remember meeting with the Provincial 21 Government representatives for -- for some time. 22 Q: Okay. Now did you have a -- do you 23 recall having a conference call on September the 8th with 24 various First Nations leaders and also Robert Runciman 25 who was the Solicitor General at that time.
1701 A: I -- I do. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I do, yeah. I didn't know the 4 details of it until I read the document again. But I 5 remember -- I remember we were always trying to get in 6 contact with somebody within the Provincial Government 7 and -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- and Runciman -- Runciman would 10 have been the Solicitor General at the time. 11 Q: Fair enough. Thank you. If you 12 would go to Tab 16, and it's Inquiry Document Number 13 1001680. This appears to be notes, typed notes of a 14 conference call with Robert Runciman, Chief Tom 15 Bressette, Joe Hare, Gordon Peters and Ovide Mercredi. 16 And having had a look at this, does this 17 refresh your memory with respect to there being a 18 conference call the next day, that is September the 8th? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what was -- can you recall who 21 initiated this call? 22 A: I think what we had been trying to do 23 -- well, I think -- I know what we had been trying to do. 24 We were -- had been trying -- we had been trying to get 25 anybody from the Provincial Government, any minister, any
1711 cabinet minister to respond to us. 2 And I think -- I think Runciman did call 3 and he did set up this meeting, and I'm pretty sure it 4 came from his offices. 5 Q: All right. And did you -- what was 6 the general purpose of this meeting, of this conference 7 call, from your perspective? 8 A: And, again, I think as we kept going 9 through all these issues we were trying to get somebody 10 on the line to be able to take some responsibility. We 11 were trying to get any Provincial Cabinet Minister to 12 have them -- have them understand the seriousness of the 13 situation that was going on. 14 And that -- I mean, the people still felt 15 that with the OPP -- and it seemed like more OPP were 16 coming in after the first day. And there was a concern 17 that -- that something else was going to happen. And we 18 -- we were trying to get people to be able to -- to deal 19 with the situation. We were trying to get people to de- 20 escalate the police. 21 Q: And -- and did you stay in the 22 Ipperwash area overnight and into September the 8th? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Do you remember how long you did stay 25 then at -- in the Ipperwash area?
1721 A: I probably stayed there for -- in 2 that area for about two (2) weeks. 3 Q: Okay. And was the Solicitor General 4 the first minister who you had direct contact with about 5 this event? 6 A: Yeah, I think so. 7 Q: And I see that in the first -- first 8 passage, what is attributed to you is the following: 9 "Cannot accept the police version of 10 the incident. There were no guns. 11 Have toured the site and looked at the 12 bus and the car. Have talked to the 13 individuals who were there." 14 Is that the message that -- that you were 15 conveying to the minister? 16 A: Yes, it was. 17 Q: And what specifically were you 18 seeking from the Solicitor General at this call? 19 A: Well, what we -- we were trying to 20 get, as I said, we were trying to get the police to de- 21 escalate the OPP. And we -- we started on the first day 22 to try to get our own constables in place. We were using 23 peacekeepers to be able to do that. We wanted to have 24 those OPP replaced and we wanted to bring in our own 25 peacekeepers, our own police constables rather.
1731 Q: All right. And just so that I 2 understand, are you drawing a distinction between 3 peacekeepers and Aboriginal constables? 4 A: Yes, I am. 5 Q: And can you just define for me what - 6 - who the peacekeepers are and were and -- and as 7 distinct from the Aboriginal officers? 8 A: The peacekeepers were -- were men who 9 came there to be able to create a buffer between the 10 people that were in the Camp and -- and the police; 11 people -- men who had come there, who had experience in 12 these kinds of situations; men who -- who could deal with 13 -- with both sides and to be able to address the issues 14 in a -- in a serious way. And so they were there. 15 The -- the constables were constables that 16 were part of the Indian policing program and who were -- 17 who were authorized under -- under that program to be 18 able to deal with -- with policing. 19 Q: All right. And did you have any role 20 to play with respect to the selection of -- peacekeepers 21 who came to Ipperwash? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: All right. Did you know who they 24 were? 25 A: Yes, I did.
1741 Q: And who were they? 2 A: The first ones that I talked to when 3 I got there was -- was Bruce Elijah. And there were a 4 number -- there were a number of individuals that came of 5 Oneida that were there. There were gentlemen from other 6 places as well. 7 Q: All right. And had you had 8 experience with Mr. Bruce Elijah in that role as -- as 9 peacekeeper before? 10 A: Yes, I had. 11 Q: All right. And did you have any 12 concerns about the fact that he was there in that role? 13 A: None whatsoever. 14 Q: And were -- are Aboriginal officers 15 eventually -- did they eventually come to the area? 16 A: Yes, they did. 17 Q: Do you recall when? 18 A: It was down the road a ways. I mean, 19 it wasn't immediate. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: So, it would -- you know, it might 22 have been four (4) or five (5) days after -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- before the police started to de- 25 escalate and then officers came in. I don't know how
1751 long it was, actually. 2 Q: Fair enough. And there was First 3 Nation constables from other -- from other reserve 4 territories? 5 A: Yes. I think it was the Anishnaabek 6 police who came in. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. And I note 8 that in this conversation it appears that the Minister -- 9 the Solicitor General indicates to you at the bottom of 10 the first page, that the Premier had made it clear that 11 he will not attend the meeting until the occupation of 12 the Provincial Park is resolved. 13 Now, do you recall receiving that 14 information from the Solicitor General at this meeting? 15 A: I recall them stating that position 16 about the -- about the situation. And -- and that was 17 the same -- that was the same thing that we had run into 18 with the student demonstrations. It was the same thing 19 that we had run into with Oka. 20 But yet we did do negotiations with 21 Ministers during all those times. They didn't deal 22 directly with the people that were inside the buildings 23 or inside the treatment centre, but we did -- but we did 24 deal with them directly on -- on -- on the same matters 25 in other forums.
1761 Q: All right. Was it -- did you -- with 2 having had the conversation with the Solicitor General, 3 did you see any further need to have direct conversation 4 or direct intervention by the Premier? 5 A: Yes, because at this stage here, the 6 -- the police are still escalating. There's more -- 7 there's more people coming in. 8 Q: And what role, if any, did you think 9 that the Premier could play with respect to the 10 observation that the OPP appeared to be increasing in 11 numbers to you? 12 A: Well, I -- I assumed that the -- the 13 Premier could -- could deal with the -- with the Police 14 Commissioner and have them start to be able to de- 15 escalate. 16 Q: And what was the basis of your 17 assumption? 18 A: My assumption was that if there was 19 given orders to be able to escalate, they could de- 20 escalate. 21 Q: All right. And on the second page of 22 this -- of these notes at the very bottom, there's a 23 notation: 24 "Chiefs asked comments to be given to 25 Premier and second call be made 5:00 to
1771 5:30 p.m. Minister made no definite 2 commitments." 3 Now, first of all, do you recall whether 4 or not it was asked of the Solicitor General that a 5 further call be made and that your comments be conveyed 6 to the Premier? 7 A: I don't think there was second call. 8 I don't -- I don't remember a second call. 9 Q: All right. But do you recall there 10 being a request for one? 11 A: Yeah, because we had been -- we had 12 been trying to get to the Premier. 13 Q: All right. Fair enough. Was there 14 any -- did you consider this to be a constructive 15 conversation with the Solicitor General? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Why not? 18 A: Because they urged us to -- to allow 19 the SIU to take control of the process. And -- and -- 20 and we were -- we were -- we were still in the mode of 21 trying to get the -- the First Nations Constables to 22 replace the OPP and we were talking to the OPP. I mean, 23 we talked to the OPP the first day and the first evening 24 and, you know, we had -- we numerous sessions with them. 25 We talked with the coroner and the OPP.
1781 And -- and -- and our constant demand was for them to be 2 able to de-escalate and -- and was to be able to -- to 3 have -- have our -- our police brought in to become the 4 buffer and so that any -- any other kinds of action on 5 their part would be -- would be, you know, lessened. And 6 with, you know, I mean the opportunity to be able to do 7 things. 8 Q: I wonder, before we move on into 9 chronology, if we can -- I'd like to review what contact 10 you -- you may have had with the OPP on September the 7th 11 when you arrived at -- at the Ipperwash area. 12 Did you have any contact with anyone from 13 the OPP? 14 A: Not immediately. I got stopped on 15 the road coming in and got searched. 16 Q: All right. Did you eventually have 17 contact with anyone from the OPP? 18 A: I didn't have any contact with 19 anybody from the OPP until late that afternoon. 20 Q: September the 7th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And who did you meet with? 23 A: Early that evening we -- we went to - 24 - I believe we went to the Pine -- the Pineridge Inn or 25 something, it's -- it's just up the road there and --
1791 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- and we had a meeting with -- I 3 think it was Inspector Cole that was there, there were 4 three (3) or four (4) gentlemen that came in. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: They came into the room. The room 7 was set up in a circle format. A gentleman came in, he 8 was introduced to us as Paul Trivett. He came in -- he 9 brought in a pipe and he sat the pipe in the middle of 10 the room. 11 And then we had -- we had a very strong 12 dialogue. 13 Q: And who initiated this -- this 14 meeting? 15 A: Some of the peacekeepers had already 16 been talking to the OPP about there was need for us to be 17 able to -- to have a dialogue and to be able to -- to see 18 what course of action could be -- could be determined. 19 Q: All right. And can you advise as to 20 what -- what if anything came out of -- of this meeting? 21 A: Very little. I think the -- I think 22 if I recall correctly, what happened was that right from 23 the get-go people started telling -- telling the police 24 that were there that they didn't believe their story, 25 they didn't believe that anybody fired upon them, they
1801 didn't -- they didn't believe that the actions that they 2 took that night to be able to save lives was -- was an 3 action that was -- was legitimate. 4 And so I mean, it just -- it just kind of 5 broke into a free-for-all there -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- and nothing -- nothing came out of 8 it other than it allowed people to be able to vent in the 9 beginning. 10 I guess -- no, I take that back, the only 11 one thing that came out of it -- the one (1) thing that 12 came of it was the offer to be able to bring the coroner 13 to a meeting. 14 Q: All right. Whose offer was that? 15 A: It was the OPP because -- because 16 when they were told that their story was not believed by 17 everyone in the room, they said that -- what they offered 18 to do was to bring in the coroner to be able to provide 19 further evidence. 20 Q: All right. Okay. 21 A: And so the coroner came in the next 22 day. 23 Q: All right. And did you have any 24 further discussions with anyone from the OPP on September 25 the 7th?
1811 A: None. 2 Q: And during the course of this one 3 meeting, did you convey any request with respect to 4 de-escalating the police presence? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what response did you receive and 7 from whom, if you can recall? 8 A: I don't think we received any 9 responses. The -- everybody went around -- around the 10 room and their say and -- and by the time that was over I 11 think each party was happy to go their own way. 12 Q: All right. About how long was this 13 meeting? 14 A: It might have been an hour and half 15 (1 1/2), two (2) hours. I don't know how long it took. 16 Q: All right. And so moving then to 17 September the 8th, you indicated that the coroner came in 18 that day. Was there a further meeting at which you 19 participated involving the OPP and the coroner? 20 A: Yes. Yes, I did participate in that 21 meeting. 22 Q: All right. And do you recall who was 23 there on behalf of the OPP? 24 A: I don't remember. There were two (2) 25 of them, two (2) members that were there with the
1821 coroner. 2 Q: And did -- 3 A: The coroner felt that he couldn't 4 come in alone. 5 Q: Do you remember the name of the 6 coroner? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: And do you recall approximately -- 9 well firstly, where the meeting took place and 10 approximately how long it was? 11 A: I think the meeting took place in the 12 school. 13 Q: At the reserve? 14 A: Because the school was the only -- I 15 don't think -- I think what was happening was the Band 16 office wasn't large enough to accommodate people to go in 17 and so I think the meetings were taking place in the 18 school as I recall. 19 The coroner came in -- came in with two 20 (2) officers. They made a presentation and then the 21 Elders responded to them. 22 Q: All right. And so is this a 23 community meeting at Kettle and Stony Point? 24 A: There were a lot of people there. 25 Q: Okay.
1831 A: I don't know if it was actually a 2 community meeting or not. 3 Q: All right. And did you have any 4 further contact with the OPP on the 8th? 5 A: I don't recall. I -- I -- I was 6 going back and forth between the -- between the Band 7 offices and -- and the barracks and I was meeting on a 8 continual basis with -- with everybody to try to see 9 where things were at. 10 And I knew that the peacekeepers were 11 trying to be able to sort something out the police and -- 12 and trying to get something to work on that -- on that 13 end, so. 14 Q: All right. Do you recall having a 15 telephone conversation with the Attorney General of the 16 province in or around September the 11th, 1995? 17 A: Yeah, I remember talking to Charles 18 Harnick. 19 Q: All right. And perhaps you could 20 look at Tab 17, Inquiry Document number 1004267. 21 A: What tab are you on, please? 22 Q: 17, please. 23 A: 17. Okay. 24 Q: And about half way down under Item 25 "C" it's reported -- it's a document dated September 11,
1841 1995, Ipperwash Exit Strategy: 2 "Legitimate native leadership to be 3 contacted by AG. Phone call from 4 Minister to Gordon Peters. Messages, 5 sympathy for situation and loss of 6 life. Seek advice on next step, ask 7 for help in contacting Chief Bressette. 8 Express support for a successful 9 resolution of Camp issue. Provide 10 information on land claim process if 11 necessary. No substantive negotiations 12 as long as the Park is occupied. 13 Willing to meet on site meeting later." 14 Now, did you have a telephone conversation 15 with the Attorney General at which these issues were 16 discussed? 17 A: I remember talking to the Attorney 18 General. I can't tell you what issues were involved. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But it wasn't a very positive 21 conversation as I recall. 22 Q: And why -- what led you to that 23 impression? 24 A: The notion was always put on the 25 table by the government was -- was that -- was that, you
1851 know, that the police should handle everything, you know, 2 and -- and there was really no role for them to -- to do 3 anything unless -- unless people -- people left the Park. 4 Q: So, was it your impression that the - 5 - the government's stand, at least as it appeared to you, 6 was that this was a police matter to resolve and not a 7 political matter? 8 A: Well, from day one (1) that was -- 9 that was the very message that we got. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: It was a police matter and that there 12 were no other solutions when there -- when there were 13 lots of solutions that were available, you know? I mean 14 -- I mean Harnick starts to talk about himself. He could 15 start talking to other people, you know. 16 They could have set up some other 17 processes, you know. Instead they hid behind the notion 18 that they weren't going to talk to anybody unless -- 19 unless the people came out of the Park. 20 Q: Okay. And did you -- do you recall 21 having -- whether or not you had a meeting with Minister 22 Harnick in or around September the 14th, 1995? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1861 Q: All right. Do you recall having a 2 meeting with Minister Harnick in or around mid September 3 at all or while you were still at -- at the Camp 4 Ipperwash area? 5 A: No, actually I don't. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I don't recall a meeting. 8 Q: Perhaps you could look at Tab 5 which 9 is Inquiry Document number 1004017 and it's entitled, 10 "Confidential Chronology of Events," and at page 2 11 there's a notation that September 13, 1995, the Minister 12 responsible for Aboriginal affairs meets with AFN Ontario 13 Regional Chief Gord Peters. 14 Do you recall having a meeting in or 15 around that... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 THE WITNESS: Could we take a short 20 recess now? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sure -- we -- we could. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 23 we can take -- we were going to take an afternoon recess. 24 Why don't we take a short recess? 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. We'll take
1871 a recess right now. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Witness 3 could use a break and so could I. We'll take it now. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fair enough. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 3:37 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 3:58 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 16 Q: Perhaps you could return to Tab 5, 17 please and Document Number 1004017. It's entitled, 18 "Confidential Chronology of Events." And I'll just note 19 that this comes from the Government Productions and I 20 believe it's from the Attorney General's office. 21 In any event there's a September 13, 1995 22 entry at page 2, which indicates that there may have been 23 a meeting as between Minister Harnick and yourself. And 24 my question is simply whether you recall there having 25 been any such meeting in or around mid September of 1995
1881 with Minister Harnick? 2 A: I -- I don't recall this meeting at 3 all. And, you know, with the -- the -- I do recall -- I 4 do recall that evening. I -- I was at home because I 5 remember the Minister of Indian Affairs called me at home 6 to let me know that he was coming the next day with a 7 document and that he was going to release to the public. 8 Advised me that he was going to bring 9 certain individuals with him and so I would have probably 10 -- I would have -- I don't know where I would have fit a 11 meeting in within -- within that time frame because we 12 were going to meet with the Minister of Indian Affairs 13 and he was going to do his public statement. 14 Q: All right. Let me just ask more 15 generally then, do you recall having any other 16 significant meetings with Provincial Ministers or 17 politicians in or around September of 1995; not pinning 18 it down to any day but in or around that time frame? 19 A: I do recall meeting with -- with Mr. 20 Harnick. Mr. Harnick became responsible for -- for 21 Native Affairs, and this is the first -- maybe it's not 22 the first time but previous governments -- the 23 responsibility was held by MNR or it was held by another 24 minister. 25 Now we have all issues that are related to
1891 -- to First Nations falling under the Attorney General's 2 office. So we've got a switch in policy that's going on 3 as well. 4 Q: All right. And what do you recall 5 about what transpired at the meeting with Mr. Harnick 6 then? 7 A: When I did have meetings with him, I 8 -- I advocated the same thing that -- that they find a 9 political solution to the -- to the Park. Remind him 10 that -- that it wasn't in the best interest of -- of 11 either the First Nations or -- or the general public to 12 reopen the Park unless a solution was found. 13 I also called upon him many times for a -- 14 for a public inquiry and to -- and to the entire 15 situation. 16 Q: All right. Do you recall 17 approximately how many meetings you had with him in 18 September? 19 A: It's hard to say. I may have met 20 with him once or maybe twice at that -- we were also 21 dealing with other issues at the same time. So our other 22 agenda items aren't falling off the table. We were still 23 pushing those agenda items, too, as well. 24 Q: By which -- do -- do you mean non- 25 Ipperwash related agenda items?
1901 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And what was -- what was 3 -- what was your reaction to this one (1) or two (2) 4 meetings in terms of Mr. Harnick's participation and 5 response? 6 A: As I recall, he -- until later on he 7 took the position that until -- until people were out of 8 the Park there would be no negotiations. He felt that it 9 was a police matter and that, you know, the SIU had been 10 in, had -- I think we -- by then, when I met with him, 11 the SIU had already -- we had already worked out an 12 agreement for the SIU to be able to come in and do a 13 joint investigation. 14 So I don't think there was -- we didn't -- 15 we didn't do anything productive in trying to be able to 16 find a way of being able to deal with Ipperwash at all. 17 Q: Did you have any meetings in 18 September of '95 with Minister Hodgson, who was the 19 Minister of Natural Resources? 20 A: I only recall one (1) meeting with 21 Mr. Hodgson and -- and I don't know when it took place, I 22 know it was in the fall sometime. His message to me was 23 that First Nations should acquiesce to the First Nations 24 or to the Provincial Government's jurisdiction and work 25 out some kind of arrangement from that point on -- on all
1911 matters. 2 Q: And did you have any meetings with 3 Premier Harris during the course of September 1995? 4 A: I never met with Mr. Harris at all 5 during the next couple years included. 6 Q: All right. Did anyone from the 7 Provincial Government offer to you any proposed political 8 solution to the Ipperwash Park issue? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Now you indicated that you had 11 some contact with the Federal Government, Minister of 12 Indian Affairs, Ron Irwin. Who initiated communications 13 as between yourself and the Federal Government? 14 A: We would have contacted the Federal 15 Government immediately. Whether -- whether it would have 16 been us or whether it would have been the AFN, somebody 17 would have contacted the Feds immediately and we would 18 have advised the minister that they have a role to play 19 vis-a-vis First Nations and would expect them to be able 20 to uphold their role. 21 Q: Perhaps you would look at Tab 11 of 22 your binder, and it's Inquiry Document Number 1009017, 23 and this appears to be a fax to The Honourable Ron Irwin, 24 Minister, Indian and Northern Affairs, from Gordon B. 25 Peters, Ontario Regional Chief, dated September 8, 1995,
1921 with a number of carbon copies including to Premier 2 Harris. And attached to that is a letter, a two (2) page 3 letter addressed to The Honourable Ron Irwin, dated 4 September 8, 1995. 5 And is that signature your signature at 6 the end of the letter? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: Perhaps we can make that the next 9 exhibit, please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-297, Your Honour. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I didn't 12 hear that. 13 THE REGISTRAR: 297. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-297: Document Number 1006430, 17 September 08/95 Multi-fax 18 from Gordon B. Peters, 19 Ontario Regional Chief, 20 Chiefs of Ontario, to the 21 Honourable Ron Irwin, 22 Minister, Indian and Northern 23 Affairs, Re: Ipperwash. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
1931 Q: All right. And did you cause this 2 letter to be sent to Minister Irwin? 3 A: Yes, I did. And again, it -- and 4 again, it's addressing the federal responsibilities. And 5 -- and part of our -- part of our strategy in trying to 6 get the federal government to -- to get on board in this 7 issue was to accept -- accept responsibility of -- of 8 them dragging their heels over the issue for -- for so 9 long, and especially DND. 10 Q: Perhaps you could advise what your -- 11 what your perception of the Federal Government's 12 responsibility with respect to this issue was? 13 A: We always felt that the Federal 14 Government had a responsibility to be able to return the 15 land, to be able to do the environmental cleanup and -- 16 and get the lands back into the hands of the peoples. 17 Q: And what lands are you referring to 18 specifically? 19 A: I'm referring to the lands inside the 20 barracks. Also -- but you also have to remember that, 21 you know, in the discussions that -- that go on about any 22 lands related to indigenous people, that the Federal 23 Government, from -- from 18 -- 1867 until 1951, become -- 24 become the sole trustee for those lands. 25 And there were many, many transactions
1941 that took place in that time that disregarded their own 2 policy, that disregarded the treaty relationship, where 3 lands were, in fact, alienated from First Nations. 4 And -- and according to the report of the 5 Royal Commission during that time, the Government of 6 Canada alienated 75 percent of -- of Indian lands. So 7 the Feds had a big role, you know. They had a big role 8 not only in the -- in the barracks but they had a big 9 role in relation to the Park as well. 10 Q: All right. And, indeed, in the third 11 paragraph of your letter you say: 12 "As you know, the Federal Government 13 has been intimately involved in the 14 historic buildup to the tragic events 15 of the last few days and the Ipperwash 16 Base lands were taken from the First 17 Nation in 1942, even though other 18 properties in the area were available 19 for Military purposes." 20 Can you just expand upon what -- in what 21 way you felt that the Federal Government was intimately 22 involved in the -- the build-up in terms of -- and 23 whether you made any connection to the Park in that 24 respect? 25 A: Well, I think there's two (2) parts
1951 to that, one (1) the lands were to be returned. And so 2 obviously the -- the Feds continued to drag their heels 3 in being able to return land -- lands that they 4 should have returned, you know, after the Second World 5 War -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- still today have not been 8 returned, you know. And so, I mean, that in itself was a 9 major role to play. Had those -- had that -- had those 10 lands been returned we wouldn't have had this situation 11 take place. As well, in relation to -- in relation to 12 other lands that -- that become alienated the Federal 13 Government has a role in those too, as well, because in - 14 - in -- in violation of their own processes where -- 15 where -- that are undertaken. 16 In many circumstances where -- where -- 17 where lands were alienated the Federal Government had a 18 role in that, you know? And -- and I -- I strongly 19 believe that the Feds should be at the table anytime 20 we're dealing with those matters. 21 Q: All right. Whether they're federally 22 owned lands or controlled lands or provincially owned or 23 controlled lands? 24 A: Well, any time the -- any time the 25 Federal Government wants to deal with -- well, I should
1961 say anytime the federal government doesn't want to deal 2 with an issue, they say, Well, that's provincial 3 jurisdiction. 4 Any time the province doesn't want to deal 5 with us, they say that's federal jurisdiction and nobody 6 ends up dealing with it. And so mechanisms that we 7 talked about earlier to -- to resolve some of these 8 things like the -- the -- the Indian Claims Commission 9 for example, that -- that was virtually -- well, it was, 10 it was killed by the -- by the -- by the Conservative 11 government as another vehicle for resolving issues. It 12 was eliminated. 13 Q: All right. And in the last paragraph 14 of your letter, you say: 15 "Some of the people involved in the 16 Base affair have been prompted to 17 occupy the adjacent Provincial Park. 18 The Elders have said that sacred burial 19 grounds are located in the Park. The 20 advice should be -- this advice should 21 be relied upon as opposed to the dated 22 1972 archeological research of the 23 province. It is, of course, the recent 24 Park occupation that led to the assault 25 by the OPP officers."
1971 What was the basis of your information 2 that some of the people involved in the Base affair have 3 been prompted to occupy the adjacent Provincial Park? 4 A: Maybe it's the use of the word, 5 "prompted." You know, it's just a word that I used in 6 the context of the sentence, but I think -- I think when 7 they talked about the return of lands they were talking 8 about return of all lands that -- that they were dealing 9 with. 10 And -- and that's a little corner on the 11 end of the -- on the end of the -- on the end of those 12 lands that were taken by the -- by the Federal 13 Government. 14 And so I'm only -- I'm only suggesting 15 here that -- that because those lands are not up for 16 discussion in the process, then -- then somehow or other 17 there has to be movement to be able to try to get those 18 lands back as well. 19 Q: All right. And did you receive a 20 response to your letter requesting the involvement of the 21 Federal Government? 22 A: I would imagine I did. I know I got 23 a telephone call. 24 Q: And can you recall, did you receive 25 the call close -- close to the time that you sent your
1981 letter of September 8th? 2 A: I'm not sure, I couldn't tell you 3 that for sure. I mean, you know, we had in this -- in 4 this whole area between the Park and the -- and the 5 community, all cellular -- all cellular services was -- 6 was not operating at the time, you know? 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: So we were going outside making 9 calls, we were taking calls, we were doing all kinds of 10 things at that -- at that point in time. So, I don't 11 know when he responded to me. I know that he -- I know I 12 did have a conversation with him prior to him coming to - 13 - to Kettle Point. 14 Q: All right. And perhaps -- I believe 15 you referred to that conversation a few minutes ago -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- perhaps you could tell me again 18 what the contents of that conversation was with Ron 19 Irwin? 20 A: The context of the conversation was 21 that he was going to come to Kettle Point the next day, 22 that he had a document indicating that there were burial 23 grounds within the Park and that from the study that was 24 taken, some date, I don't remember the date that he said, 25 and that he was going to come and that he was going to
1991 produce that document. 2 Q: All right. Did he tell you why he 3 was going to produce that document? 4 A: No, he never. 5 Q: All right. And what was your 6 reaction to his advice? 7 A: Well, I welcomed him to come because 8 I thought that he should have been there long time before 9 and that he -- that he should have been in the area, that 10 he should have come to be able to assess the situation 11 before this time. 12 And he advised that he was bringing 13 certain individuals and I -- I advised him not to. 14 Q: What -- what individuals? 15 A: He advised that he was going to bring 16 some various community leaders from other regions. I 17 advised him not to and then I called those individuals 18 directly -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- and advised them not to come. 21 Q: And what -- what was the basis for 22 your -- your opinion? 23 A: I didn't want him to be -- to be 24 shown in the light of -- of the process that he was going 25 to -- to deliver. Because what he was going to do the
2001 next day wasn't in our best interests, you know, we 2 already knew the burial grounds were there, you know. 3 It was in the best interest of the Federal 4 Government who was in a kind of a back and forth battle 5 with the Provincial Government. They were trying to play 6 one up on each other. And that's all I seen it as. 7 Q: All right. And did you raise with 8 the Minister what else, if anything, he was going to do 9 to assist with the resolution of this dispute? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: What was his response? 12 A: His response was that the -- the 13 claim should be immediately put into the claims process. 14 Q: Which claims process? 15 A: The specific claims process I think 16 he said. 17 Q: Was that with respect to the 18 Provincial Park? 19 A: That was in respect to lands in that 20 area, yes. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: And that he would -- it was his 23 recommendation that they should follow any normal land 24 claim procedure. 25 Q: And what was your response to that?
2011 A: I told him -- I told him that was not 2 -- not the case. I said you -- you have a situation now 3 where someone has died. To go back into that process 4 which doesn't work for anybody would be another huge 5 mistake. 6 That they needed to be able to create a 7 political process in order for them to be able to deal 8 with these lands. And we suggested to the Federal 9 Government that they assume these lands from the 10 Province, that they -- they have to buy them back. 11 Q: Now, did Minister Irwin come to the 12 Ipperwash area as he indicated he would? 13 A: He came to Kettle Point. 14 Q: All right. And do you recall when 15 approximately that was? 16 A: No. I don't recall when he actually 17 came to deliver the notice. 18 Q: Perhaps I can refer you to Tab 22, 19 Inquiry Document Number 1003159. Now this is an article 20 from the London Free Press dated September 14, 1995 21 entitled, "Ipperwash Deal Nearer Barricades Come Down." 22 And it's noted on the first column under, "Should Know 23 Today," second paragraph. 24 "Gord Peters, Ontario Regional Chief, 25 speaking on behalf of the protesters
2021 said part of the proposal would allow 2 investigators from the province's 3 special investigation unit which 4 investigates all police shootings, to 5 conduct a joint investigation with 6 Natives into the death of Anthony 7 Dudley George. 8 Observers should also be allowed in the 9 Camp, on the Camp and into the area 10 where the shooting took place outside 11 the Provincial Park." 12 This also refers to, if you can see by the 13 picture, the meeting of Ron -- with Ron Irwin and MP 14 Elijah Harper which apparently occurred on September the 15 13th, 1995; does that sound about right to you? 16 A: Yes, it does. We were in -- we were 17 in -- in constant negotiations with the -- with the SIU 18 and with the OPP about trying to get a joint process 19 underway, a joint investigation. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: And we said once we got the joint 22 investigation and we are able to move ahead with that, 23 then those barricades would come down. 24 Q: All right. And just before we move 25 on to that -- those discussions, did you have an
2031 opportunity to meet with Minister Irwin either on the 2 13th of September '95 or at any other time with respect 3 to the Ipperwash issues? 4 A: That was the purpose that he was 5 there. 6 Q: And did you -- and you met with him? 7 A: Not alone I never. 8 Q: Okay. But -- 9 A: There was a public forum that was -- 10 that was created and I don't know if it was that same 11 afternoon or it was the following day but there was a 12 forum and a discussion about how to be able to deal with 13 those lands. 14 Q: All right. And what was the 15 Minister's -- well, first of all, what proposal were put 16 to him, if any, by you or -- or others on your behalf? 17 A: I didn't -- I didn't intervene in the 18 discussions until near the end, but what he proposed was 19 to go into the same kinds of claims process. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Near the end of the day I did 22 intervene and I said that that wasn't a -- that wouldn't 23 work, you know, the process hasn't worked before and -- 24 and this needed a different kind of solution. 25 Q: Okay
2041 A: And I don't remember how we finished 2 the day, you know, and... 3 Q: Were there any further discussions 4 with Ron Irwin with respect to Camp Ipperwash and 5 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 6 A: Well, we tried to get him to come 7 into the -- into the Army barracks but he wouldn't go, he 8 said that he didn't feel -- he didn't feel comfortable 9 going in there. 10 And we gave him our assurances that it was 11 fine and, you know, we would take him through, he would 12 see the site, he would see the -- he would see the buses 13 and the vehicles himself, he would see the area where the 14 -- where the shooting took place, but he declined. 15 Q: All right. And was that the end of 16 your discussions with the Minister concerning these 17 matters? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: All right. I'd like to make the 20 article the next exhibit, please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-298. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-298: Document Number 1003159, 24 September 14/95 London Free 25 Press article "Ipperwash Deal
2051 Nearer, Barricades Come 2 Down." 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Moving on to a different area now, 6 Mr. Peters, did you play any role in the establishment 7 and operation of the First Nations' investigation team 8 that was established in the aftermath of the shooting? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And can you tell me what role you 11 played in that? 12 A: We were -- we were having ongoing 13 discussions with the OPP in -- in about how the 14 investigation was going to take place and the terms and 15 conditions. We worked on being able to develop what we 16 thought were the best possible scenarios that we could 17 achieve. 18 And we agreed that Chico Ralf (phonetic) 19 should be brought in to be able to assist in the process 20 and, at the end of the day, other individuals who -- who 21 would be able to assist in that area. 22 Q: And were you a spokesperson for the 23 team on the -- 24 A: I don't if I was ever a spokesperson 25 for anybody but -- but I did deal with a lot of media
2061 during the time and -- and I was asked by -- by people to 2 deliver messages, but I -- I don't think I would be 3 categorized as a spokesperson -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- even though the media says that in 6 -- several times. 7 Q: Fair enough. Okay. And did you play 8 a role in the development of a joint police First Nation 9 investigation into the shooting and the events of 10 September the 6th, '95? 11 A: No, I didn't, just in the development 12 of the -- of the terms and conditions for -- for the 13 joint process. 14 Q: All right. And do you recall what 15 the purpose of setting up a joint effort was? 16 A: We wanted to be able to ensure that 17 factual information that was being brought out wouldn't 18 be lost in the process, that we would have an opportunity 19 to be able to identify all of the issues that needed to 20 be identified from -- from the perspective of the people 21 who were in the Park that evening. 22 They needed to -- they needed to feel 23 comfortable that they had somebody to be able to talk to 24 and somebody to be able to express their views to, and 25 they wanted somebody to come in that -- that knew
2071 something about the policing process. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. And over what period of 3 time did the discussion leading to an understanding or a 4 protocol, if you will, for the joint investigation, over 5 what time period did that take place? 6 A: It started on day one (1). 7 Q: Day one (1) -- 8 A: It started -- it started right after 9 in our discussions with the police. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: We said that we didn't -- we didn't 12 trust the SIU to be able to come in and to be able to -- 13 to do its work. We cited the track record of the -- of 14 the unit itself and -- and firmly believed that we needed 15 to have a role in -- in the undertaking. 16 Q: All right. And I wonder if you'd go 17 to Tab 29, Inquiry Document 1000797. It's an article 18 dated September 16, 1995 by the Sarnia Observer entitled, 19 "Natives OPP Near Deal." And is this about the time 20 period that -- that in fact negotiations with respect to 21 how the joint investigation would look -- or would look 22 like took place? 23 A: Yeah. We were -- we were actually 24 very close a couple of times. 25 Q: Okay.
2081 A: Meaning something established and -- 2 and each time another issue would be raised by the OPP. 3 We had vandalism issues that were raised about cottages 4 being vandalized and everything. And so we took a -- a 5 video camera and we went through the cottages and -- and 6 we video taped things to make sure that -- that there was 7 nothing happening in those areas. 8 Q: All right. And just before we get to 9 the video taping, the joint arrangement that was 10 arranged, was that between the First Nations 11 investigations team and the OPP? 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: And was there any similar arrangement 14 made with the SIU? 15 A: That was the terms and conditions for 16 the SIU to come in. It was -- it was negotiated with the 17 police but it was -- but it was the terms of -- of 18 conditions for the operation with the SIU. 19 Q: All right. And was -- 20 A: The SIU also came into the process 21 and -- and did some of their own negotiations, as I 22 recall. 23 Q: All right. All right. And was -- 24 was there an agreement ultimately reached which was 25 reduced to writing with respect to the terms of a joint
2091 investigation? 2 A: Yes, there was. 3 Q: And would you kindly go to Tab 38? 4 This is Exhibit P-218 but also it's Inquiry Document 5 Number 6000335. It's entitled, "Three Day Joint 6 Investigation Relating To The Death Of Anthony Dudley 7 George and Related Incidents." 8 And you'll see on the third page in, 9 there's a document entitled, "Memorandum Of Understanding 10 Between The First Nations People At Stoney Point and the 11 Ontario Provincial Police On Conditions For Conducting a 12 Joint Identification Investigation Of The Physical Site 13 and Circumstances Relating To The Death Of Anthony Dudley 14 George and Related Incidents." 15 And it's a three (3) page document and it 16 appears to be signed by members of the First Nations and 17 the Ontario Provincial Police on September the 17, 1995. 18 Is that the memorandum of understanding that was reached? 19 A: Yeah, it looks like it. 20 Q: All right. Now did you -- did -- did 21 an investigation ensue as a result? 22 A: Barricades came down. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And the investigation took place. 25 Q: All right. And do you know how long
2101 it lasted? 2 A: I don't know. It says three (3) days 3 but I -- I couldn't tell you for sure how long it lasted. 4 Q: All right. Did you participate in 5 any part of the investigation? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: All right. Were you present during a 8 tour of certain cottages on the beachfront adjacent to 9 the Park which was video taped and at which Bruce Elijah 10 was also in attendance? 11 A: Yes I -- yes, I did. 12 Q: All right. And do you recall, was 13 that part of an investigation as well? 14 A: No. It was an issue that got raised 15 and the cottagers were demanding that the -- that the OPP 16 go in and remove people from the Park because their 17 cottages were being vandalized. There was -- there was a 18 lot of accusations that were going on. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: So in our discussions the police 21 raised the issue and so we went out and we video taped 22 everything that we thought was necessary to be able to do 23 to demonstrate that nobody was vandalizing buildings. 24 What we found was one door that had been -- that had been 25 unhinged.
2111 Q: All right. And was your entry into 2 the cottages a result of discussions you had with the 3 OPP? 4 A: It was not a result of -- of 5 discussions, it was a result of the fact that they were 6 trying to find ways of not to have a discussion with us. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: And so it was an issue that was 9 raised because they felt strongly that, you know, that 10 our officers and -- couldn't contain anybody from being 11 able to do those kinds of things. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And so when we were doing the 14 negotiations they -- it was an obstacle to be able to be 15 overcome. 16 Q: All right. And did you show this -- 17 to your knowledge was this tape shown to the OPP during 18 the course of the negotiations? 19 A: No, I just -- I think we told them 20 that we had done it and we had the tape, it was 21 available. 22 Q: All right. Fair enough. 23 A: And this is the damage that was done. 24 Q: And just for the record, this tape 25 has been entered into evidence as Exhibit P-277.
2121 A: I think we also -- I think we 2 reported to -- I think we sent something or we did 3 something with -- with members from the -- from the -- 4 the local area, Bosanquet group that had formed, I think 5 with their council and stuff. I -- I believe -- I -- I 6 remember we went over there. 7 Q: This was a community meeting, a 8 residents meeting? 9 A: Yeah, it was a community meeting that 10 was going on. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Because they were pressuring the 13 police to be able to come in and -- and to remove people 14 from the Park because of a -- 15 Q: All right. And did you -- did you 16 attend at that meeting? 17 A: I -- I think I did. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I can't be a 100 percent sure. I 20 know we went over there. 21 Q: And do you recall what -- what 22 transpired, then, at the meeting with these residents? 23 A: I don't know who we even talked to -- 24 Q: All right. 25 A: -- you know, but I know they were the
2131 driving force behind the -- the whole issue of the 2 vandalism. 3 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 4 attending at this meeting, then? 5 A: To let them know that -- that our 6 security was in place and that cottages were secure. 7 Q: All right. And when you say that, 8 "cottages were secure," do you -- was there any barrier 9 to the residents returning to the cottages during this 10 period of time in September of '95? 11 A: No, there wasn't. There wasn't any 12 barriers. The only barriers that we had were the media 13 and there were constant media going out, you know, that 14 this issue wasn't resolved yet, that the barracks were 15 still up, that, you know, there will still flash points, 16 you know. 17 And, in fact -- and, in fact, that once 18 people were assured that the OPP weren't going to come in 19 again, and the negotiations started and the peacekeepers 20 were there, everything was under control. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: The monitoring was done. Police by 23 the -- by the constables on the road and on the road 24 itself that stretched by -- in front of the Base and 25 around down towards the cottages.
2141 Q: And approximately what time -- by 2 what date was everything under control in -- in this 3 respect with the barricades down and people being allowed 4 to come back into the cottages if they chose? 5 A: I think the barricades came down a 6 couple of days after -- after Irwin came. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And I think everything changed after 9 Irwin tabled his document that said that there were 10 definitely burial grounds within the Park because then 11 nobody had an argument with the process. You know, I 12 mean, all those arguments were deflated then and so -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- once it was clear that -- that the 15 burial grounds were there, then it became -- it became a 16 different process and -- and there was -- there was a 17 process of police starting to be able to move out. 18 One (1) of the things that -- one (1) of 19 the things that was good for us was that Chico, being in 20 the police for so long, was that he was able to identify 21 where people came from, what regions they came from and - 22 - and to able to demonstrate that people were coming from 23 -- from quite a few areas within Ontario. And so when 24 they weren't there, we knew when they left. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall having
2151 discussions with an individual from the government named 2 Larry Taman in September of 1995? 3 A: I remember Larry Taman. 4 Q: Do you recall who he was at the time? 5 A: I think he was the Assistant Deputy 6 Minister at ONAS. 7 Q: All right. And I wonder if -- can 8 you recall what the nature of your interactions with Mr. 9 Taman was? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Would you go to Tab 26, Inquiry 12 Document Number 1001864, and you'll see that this is a 13 memorandum to Larry Taman from Dana Venner, it's an 14 internal government document and it's dated September 15, 15 1995, reflecting discussions with Chief Peters. And the 16 note is: 17 "Please, attached, a draft letter that 18 I am considering sending to Chief 19 Peters. I'm quite concerned that Chief 20 Peters appears to be under a 21 misapprehension with respect to the 22 role of the SIU. In particular, I'm 23 concerned that he believes that any 24 agreement he signs with the OPP with 25 respect to their investigation will
2161 automatically bind the SIU." 2 Does that refresh your memory at all about 3 what discussions you may have had? 4 A: I remember having those discussions. 5 I don't remember if it was with Taman or not. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But -- but we had those discussions 8 about -- about the role of the SIU and -- and its 9 relation to the police. And we knew very clearly that 10 the SIU was there to investigate the police action. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: You know, I mean there was no 13 confusion in our mind about anybody binding anybody. 14 Q: All right. And if you'd look at the 15 next tab, Tab 27, this is the draft letter, Inquiry 16 Document Number 1001867, the draft letter referred to in 17 the prior memo. 18 And I'm just wondering -- you might take a 19 minute to look at it, but -- did you ever receive a final 20 version of this letter or a letter from Dana Venner, 21 Acting Director, outlining these issues concerning the 22 OPP versus the SIU's respective roles? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, leaving 25 aside the issues relating to the Park winterization,
2171 which I'll get to in a moment, do you recall any other 2 significant political meetings or discussions with 3 provincial politicians or civil servants which we have 4 not yet reviewed concerning the -- the occupation of the 5 Park? 6 A: No. I -- I think after -- after 7 September, the evening of September 6th, I think the only 8 person that we spoke with -- that I spoke with I -- I 9 would say later on, a week after that, from then on, I 10 think the only person I ever spoke to about -- about 11 Ipperwash was -- was the Attorney General. 12 Q: All right. And we've reviewed those 13 discussions? 14 A: Yes. And those discussions went on 15 through the winter. 16 Q: Okay. And what were the tenor of the 17 discussions with the Attorney General that went on 18 through the winter? 19 A: The notion that the Ontario 20 Government was going to reopen the Park in the spring. 21 Q: And what was your reaction to that 22 notion? 23 A: I thought it was foolish for him to 24 be able to say that publicly. 25 Q: And did you give him that advice?
2181 A: Absolutely. 2 Q: What was his reaction? 3 A: He told me that the Provincial 4 Government had the authority to be able to do that. 5 Q: Okay. Why did you think that it was 6 perhaps an imprudent suggestion? 7 A: Because I didn't think that anything 8 had been done of any significance to that date that would 9 allow people to be able to say, Let's leave the issue 10 alone, let's walk away, or, Has it been resolved in any 11 way. There was no inquiry, there was nothing that had 12 happened to that date, there was no commitment on our 13 part to be able to resolve anything. So the issue in my 14 mind was still fresh. 15 Q: Did you have any concerns about what 16 might happen if the government proceeded to reopen the 17 Park in the following spring? 18 A: Yes. I think I said to him that I -- 19 I feared that if he -- if he reopened the Park, if they 20 reopened the Park, well, they would be involved in a 21 confrontation again. 22 Q: All right. And do you recall what 23 his response to that was? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: All right. And did you have any
2191 other discussions or at least did you discuss any other 2 issues with the Attorney General relative to the 3 Ipperwash issues throughout -- over the course of the 4 balance of '95 and '96? 5 A: None other -- none other than I was 6 again just repeating to him again that he needed to find 7 a political solution to this. 8 Q: All right. Were you aware of any 9 issues arising in the late -- late 1995 concerning the 10 need to winterize the Park? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: And were you active in that issue as 13 well? 14 A: No, I wasn't active in it but I was - 15 - I was notified of it on a regular basis. 16 Q: And do you know why it was that you 17 were notified about it? 18 A: It was part of the agreement that we 19 struck with the -- with the OPP. 20 Q: All right. Perhaps you would go to 21 Tab 43 which is Inquiry Document Number 1010176. And 22 it's a letter dated November 29, 1995 to the Honourable 23 Chris Hodgson who was then the Minister of Natural 24 Resources and it appears to be from yourself. 25 Is that your signature on the second page?
2201 A: Yes, it is. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 3 that the next exhibit please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-299. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-299: Document Number 1010176, 8 November 29/95 letter to 9 Honourable Chris Hodgson, 10 Minister of Natural Resources 11 from Gord Peters, Ontario 12 Regional Chief, Chiefs of 13 Ontario, Re: Ipperwash 14 Provincial Park. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: And what was the -- the purpose of 18 this letter? 19 A: I had been informed by Bruce Elijah 20 that during the course of winterizing the -- the pump 21 house that MNR was trying to bring additional personnel 22 into the area and they had been doing so for a while. 23 I didn't write the letter -- I didn't 24 write the letter until a short time after I -- I waited 25 for them to try to deal with the issue. And when they
2211 reported to me that -- that they were unable to -- unable 2 to get MNR to comply with the terms of the agreement, I 3 then wrote to -- to Hodgson. 4 Q: All right. And did -- does this 5 letter adequately set -- or accurately list out your 6 concerns? 7 A: Yes, it does. 8 Q: Did you receive a response to this 9 letter? 10 A: Probably, we were always playing tic 11 tac toe. Letters would go back and forth on a fairly 12 regular basis. 13 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 14 not this -- this issue was ultimately resolved? 15 A: It was resolved and I know that I -- 16 I did get a -- I got a call from -- I got a call from 17 somebody within government and I don't remember who it 18 was. It might have came out of ONAS. 19 And that was -- I was informed that -- 20 that the winterization was going ahead and according to 21 the terms that they had agreed to -- that the police had 22 agreed to. 23 Q: All right. And if you'd go to Tab 52 24 now please. Inquiry Document Number 1009028. This is a 25 letter dated December 8th, 1995 addressed to yourself.
2221 And it indicates that the original is 2 signed by the Honourable Chris Hodgson referencing your 3 letter of November 29th, 1995 and advising that the 4 winterization of the Park had been carried out and 5 completed on December 3rd, 1995. Do you recall receiving 6 this letter? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 9 that the next exhibit please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-300. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-300: Document Number 1009028, 14 December 8/95 letter to Chief 15 Gord Peters, Ontario Regional 16 Chief from Honourable Chris 17 Hodgson, Minister of Natural 18 Resources and Northern 19 Development and Mines, Re: 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 23 Q: Now did you continue to act in a 24 political capacity in relation to the Ipperwash issues 25 going into 1996?
2231 A: I did. Yes, when the George Family 2 was requesting an inquiry, I did participate with them on 3 a number of issues. Trying to raise funds for that, 4 trying to make public aware of what was still going on 5 which had not been resolved. 6 Q: All right. And were you also playing 7 a role with respect to keeping this matter, if you will, 8 on the agenda of the Provincial Government? 9 A: Yes, I was. As I said previously 10 that my concern was that -- that if no action was taken 11 throughout the winter that the Park would be -- attempted 12 to be reopen in the spring. 13 Q: All right. And if you'd look at Tab 14 55 of your brief Inquiry Document Number 101-2179. Now 15 this is -- it looks like an internal memorandum, the 16 Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat dated January 23, 17 1996. 18 And there's a reference in the first 19 paragraph that you have met with Andromache Karakatsanis 20 and inquired about the status of matters of Ipperwash 21 such as the investigation into the alleged burial ground. 22 And are these the types of things and is 23 this representative of the type of actions that you were 24 continuing to take? 25 A: Yes, it is.
2241 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 2 that the next exhibit please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-301. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-301: Document Number 1012179, 6 January 23/96 memorandum to 7 Ron V. Rancart, Deputy 8 Minister, Ministry of natural 9 Resources from Andromache 10 Karakatsanis, Re: Situation 11 at Ipperwash Provincial Park 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: And if you look at the next tab, 15 please, it's Inquiry Document Number 1012201, and this 16 is, again, this is an internal briefing note prepared -- 17 A: Where -- I'm sorry, where are you? 18 Q: I'm sorry? 19 A: Where are you? 20 Q: I'm sorry, Tab 56. 21 A: Thank you. 22 Q: And, again, this is a briefing 23 internal note from the government, briefing material from 24 Minister Harnick for meeting with Regional Chief Gord 25 Peters, and it's dated February 9th, 1996. And you'll
2251 see that this again seems to be preparing the Minister 2 for questions with respect to the decision to open the 3 Park and the positions that he should take. 4 And is that reflecting of in fact the 5 positions that he did take with you? 6 A: It is reflective of the positions I 7 took? 8 Q: That he took with you. In other 9 words, that the government -- that the decision regarding 10 the Park opening was the MNR's decision and that there 11 was an intention to open the Park? 12 A: Yes. I mean, why -- and you have to 13 know why I'm talking to the Attorney General at the time, 14 because he -- he is the cabinet minister responsible for 15 these areas. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And if I can't -- if I can't have him 18 and get a meeting with -- with the MNR, it's the 19 responsibility of that minister to be able to arrange 20 those types of meetings. 21 Q: Because of his position as being 22 responsible for Native Affairs? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. Fair enough. And did you 25 continue to play a role with respect to ongoing
2261 discussions with the OPP and members from Stoney Point 2 and the Kettle and Stony Point Band in 1996? 3 A: I don't recall that. I mean, our -- 4 my focus changed in the latter part of '95 and early '96 5 when the Ontario government, the Conservative Government 6 halted construction of Casinorama (phonetic) and 7 unilaterally announced that they were taking 20 percent 8 of the gross of the casino. 9 Q: All right. Is it fair to say then 10 that your political involvement in the Ipperwash related 11 issues began to become less in 1996? 12 A: It became less but I -- I was still 13 supporting the -- the request for an inquiry. And so I 14 knew that the George family was doing -- doing a lot of 15 work in that area. And so, where possible I could 16 support them, I did. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And -- and, also, I was still 19 addressing media because those issues were still arising 20 from time to time. 21 Q: Okay. I wonder if you'd go next to 22 Tab 57, Inquiry Document Number 2000330, it's entitled, 23 "First Draft, Kettle Point Police Service Special 24 Meeting," dated February 10, 1996. 25 You'll see that there are a number of
2271 individuals in attendance, including yourself. And this 2 appears, if you look at the fourth page in, at the 3 bottom, there's a reference to you to the extent that: 4 "The Park won't open in the spring and 5 the Park is clear. Ask Chris Coles if 6 the Park was clear and asked him to 7 address it. Coles, Commissioner can 8 address those things. One (1) letter 9 to the Attorney General, Charles 10 Harnick, and one (1) letter to the 11 Minister of Natural Resources, Chris 12 Hodgson. As far as the OPP is 13 concerned, the Park is not occupied 14 except for person looking after the 15 water station." 16 And do you recall having then some 17 involvement at this meeting at which these issues were 18 raised? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I can't tell you that I -- that I 23 remember. 24 Q: Okay, fair enough. Thank you. All 25 right.
2281 A: I did -- I know I did attend meetings 2 and that I -- I was requested to attend meetings 3 sometimes by -- by Bruce Elijah, sometimes through Miles 4 Bressette, different people would ask me to make sure 5 that I would attend the meeting. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: I can't tell you what they -- 8 Q: That's fair enough. At some point in 9 time did your involvement in -- in your official capacity 10 as the Ontario Regional Chief end, with respect to the 11 Ipperwash matter? 12 A: Formally in relation to any kind of - 13 - of development within -- within the two (2) 14 communities? I suppose. I mean as far as -- I suppose 15 it just waned out, you know, and that's probably the best 16 way to describe it. 17 Q: And approximately when -- when did 18 that happen? 19 A: As I said, in early '96 we were 20 dealing with -- with Casinorama and so there were a lot 21 of issues that we had that were ongoing at the time and - 22 - and my only role would have been in the supportive 23 role, vis-a-vis the -- the Inquiry. 24 Q: All right. Thank you, Mr. Peters, 25 those conclude my questions and perhaps we will take a --
2291 to see who wishes to cross-examine at this point. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will you 3 keep track? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I will. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or somebody? 6 Would you indicate in the usual manner who intends to 7 cross-examine Chief Peters and how long you might be? It 8 looks like we've got a full house. 9 Mr. Horton, I presume that you'll be 10 waiting to see how it goes? 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: That's right. 12 Probably around twenty (20) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Yes, 14 Mr. Klippenstein...? 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Twenty (20) 16 minutes to half an hour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And -- 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) to ten (10) 19 minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 21 Ross...? 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps fifteen (15) 23 minutes, maximum. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 Henderson...?
2301 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Fifteen (15). 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Eyolfson...? 4 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Five (5) to ten (10) 5 minutes depending on -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Myrka...? 8 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Perhaps ten (10) to 9 fifteen (15) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 11 Jackson...? 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Twenty (20) to 13 thirty (30) minutes? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Jones...? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Approximately ten (10) 17 minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 19 Downard...? 20 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Twenty (20) to thirty 21 (30) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That looks 23 like we could do it in one (1) day. Definitely. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that we'll get 25 to the next witness tomorrow.
2311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Some time 2 tomorrow? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's -- if all the time 4 estimates are accurate. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 6 we'll adjourn for the day now. We'll adjourn for the day 7 now and begin cross-examination at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow 8 morning. Thank you very much. 9 You'll be okay to be here tomorrow morning 10 at nine o'clock? 11 THE WITNESS: Sure. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 (WITNESS RETIRES) 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 17 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, March 31st at 9:00 18 a.m. 19 20 --- Upon adjourning at 4:50 p.m. 21 Certified Correct 22 23 24 ____________________ 25 Dustin Warnock