11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 29th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 9 10 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 11 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 12 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 13 14 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 15 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 16 Jennifer McAleer ) 17 18 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 19 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 20 21 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 22 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 6 LARRY JOHN PARKS, Resumed 7 Continued Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 11 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Cameron Neil 35 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathan George 64 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Mr. Ian Roland 72 11 12 NEIL MICHAEL JOHN WHELAN, Sworn 13 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 77 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 255 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 259 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 270 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 296 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 323 19 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 344 20 21 22 Certificate of Transcript 348 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1229 Document Number 2005550. Curriculum 4 Vitae of Neil M.J. Whelan. 78 5 P-1230 Document Number 2005569. Handwritten 6 notebook entries of Neil Whelan, July 29 7 - August 02, 1995 and August 19- 22, 8 1995, July 29 - August 22, 1995. 86 9 P-1231 Document Number 2003958. Handwritten 10 interview report of Neil Whelan, 11 July 29 - August 01, 1995. 91 12 P-1232 Document Number 1007935. ERT Callout 13 Sheet, August 07, 1995. 94 14 P-1233 Document Number 2000800. Handwritten 15 Emergency Response Team Operational 16 Report - Whelan/Jacklin, August 19, 17 1995. 96 18 P-1234 Document Number 2000820, 2000821 and 19 2000822. Handwritten Emergency Response 20 Team Operational Report - Whelan, Parks, 21 August 20, 1995. 97 22 P-1235 Document Number 2000804. Handwritten 23 Emergency Response Team Operational 24 Report - Gransden/Whelan, August 21, 25 1995. 100
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1236 Document Number 2000808. Handwritten 4 Emergency Response Team Operational 5 Report - Gransden/Whelan, August 22, 6 1995. 101 7 P-1237 Document Number 2003985. Handwritten 8 notebook entries of Neil Whelan, 9 September 02-22, 1995. 107 10 P-1238 Document Number 2003958. Typed and 11 handwritten statement of Neil Whelan 12 (undated). 120 13 P-1239 Stan Thompson Drawing, September 20th, 14 1995, marked by Witness Mr. Neil Whelan, 15 March 29, 2006. 158 16 P-1240 Document Number 2001172. Vehicle damage 17 report, dated September 06, 1995 re. 18 Occurrence date September 04, 1995. 164 19 P-1241 Transcript of Chatham Logger Tape 0143, 20 Track 12, September 05, 1995, 22:04 hrs, 21 22:06 hrs, 22:22 hrs, 22:29 hrs, 22:37 22 hrs, 22:41 hrs, 22:49 hrs. 184 23 24 25
101 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1242 Document number 2004343. General 4 Occurrence Report, September 05, 5 1995 and memo to District Commander, 6 September 19, 1995. 197 7 P-1243 Reserved. 209 8 P-1244 Transcript of Region 06, Oscar 1, Tac 1, 9 September 06, 1995, 21:46 hrs, Chatham 10 Communications Centre, Logger tape number 11 0146, Track 12 , Disc 12 or 20. 230 12 P-1245 Small map of P-437B marked by Witness 13 Mr. Neil Whelan, March 29, 2006 237 14 P-1246 Document Number 2003957. Statement of 15 Neil Whelan taken on September 07, 1995 16 with handwritten interview report 17 attached, September 07, 1995. 244 18 P-1247 Document Number 2003739. Statement of 19 John Mortimer taken on September 07, 20 1995, September 07, 1995. 251 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Good morning, everybody. 8 Good morning, Mr. Ross, we haven't seen 9 you for a while. Nice to see you here. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's because I'm 11 sitting behind the lectern. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good morning. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 morning, Ms. Esmonde. 18 19 LARRY JOHN PARKS, Resumed 20 21 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 22 Q: Now, when we left off yesterday I was 23 asking you some questions about some vehicles you stopped 24 on August 10th, and you were not able to recall the 25 reason for the stop but you told me that you wouldn't
121 have run a CPIC check on a passenger without a reason, 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And am I correct that you -- you 5 surmised, based on your review of the documents, that you 6 would have known the people in the vehicle and would not 7 have asked -- you wouldn't have needed to ask for their 8 identification? 9 A: I didn't go that far. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I -- I knew the family in the 12 vehicle. 13 Q: Okay. That's the first vehicle? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the second vehicle? 16 A: The second vehicle I have no notes on 17 that at all. 18 Q: Okay. But you know, based on your 19 practice as a police officer, that you would need to have 20 a -- that you would need to have a basis for asking the 21 passenger for their name and their identification? 22 There would have to have been some reason 23 for you to do so? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you can't just demand that
131 information from passengers without a reason? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: You testified yesterday that you 4 understood the purpose of a checkpoint is to aid in the 5 early apprehension of persons involved in a crime? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that that is actually written in 8 some of the policies? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when you were asked about the 11 purpose for the checkpoints that you were staffing on 12 September 5th and 6th, you adding something to the reason 13 for that checkpoint and that it wasn't that you were 14 trying to apprehend persons involved in the crime, you 15 were trying to -- it was persons who may be -- who may in 16 the future commit a crime. 17 A: I've said that yes. 18 Q: And such a purpose is not reflected 19 in the policy documents that you were taken to yesterday, 20 correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And you understood that the purpose
141 of the checkpoints was to try to prevent people from 2 going into the Park to join the protest, right? 3 A: I don't -- I didn't make any notes on 4 the actual briefing so you'd have to refer to supervisors 5 at the time. Sometimes things changed and I didn't 6 document each time things changed, so I can't say for 7 certain. 8 I was giving you a general policy, not 9 exactly what happened at that time. 10 Q: Okay. So the reasons for the 11 checkpoints changed over time? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Over those few days? 14 A: The -- or the operation or what 15 exactly they wanted at the time changed. 16 Q: Okay. The -- the reasons for the 17 checkpoints as opposed to the practice at the 18 checkpoints. The reason for the checkpoints changed over 19 September 5th and 6th? 20 A: I -- I think you're going to have to 21 check with command staff on -- 22 Q: I -- I need to know what your 23 understanding was. 24 A: I didn't -- I didn't document 25 exactly. I did what I was told and what asked -- they
151 asked me at briefings. I didn't document the briefings. 2 Q: Okay. Is it not the case though that 3 you understood on a general level and you understand 4 today that the reason for the checkpoints was, in part, 5 to try to prevent people from joining the protest in the 6 Park? 7 A: That was one (1) of the reasons. 8 Q: That was one (1) of the reasons. And 9 another reason was to collect intelligence on the people 10 who may be attempting to join the people in the Park? 11 A: That's -- that's possibly one (1) of 12 the other reasons. 13 Q: Did -- did you understand that that 14 was one (1) of the reasons? 15 A: I can't remember. 16 Q: You were collecting the names of 17 people who stopped at the checkpoint? 18 A: Yes, I believe so. 19 Q: And you were passing that information 20 onto your superiors? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you understood that that was 23 going to go to an intelligence branch? 24 A: Where it went from there wasn't my 25 concern.
161 Q: You also were aware I'm sure, that 2 the checkpoints were not successful in preventing people 3 from joining the protest in the Park? 4 A: I guess that's an opinion. I don't 5 have an opinion on that. 6 Q: You don't have an opinion on that? 7 A: No I don't. 8 Q: Well, people could join the -- the 9 people in the Park by going through the Camp, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You couldn't control the access to 12 the Park with the checkpoints? 13 A: Somewhat. 14 Q: And in fact you've told us that you 15 were not stopping people from going through the 16 checkpoints. 17 A: As I said before, you -- you'll have 18 to check at the radio logs, they show exactly what we 19 were doing at certain times. 20 Q: Okay. I do -- I understand from the 21 evidence we've heard previously that there was some point 22 on the evening of September 6th when there was an 23 instruction to no longer allow people to go through the 24 checkpoints; that's right, right? 25 A: I -- I don't recall it exactly.
171 Q: You don't recall, okay. But on 2 Septem -- well let's focus on September 5th then. You 3 were at a checkpoint on September 5th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And on that evening you were not 6 stopping people from going through the checkpoint? 7 A: No, we weren't. 8 Q: That once you had spoken with them 9 and gotten their names, then you would allow them to 10 proceed? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, you told us that you had 13 attended at checkpoints in your career prior to this? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you've done so since? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Have you attended at checkpoints that 18 were staffed by as many as four (4) ERT officers in a 19 context where you weren't trying to apprehend somebody 20 who had already committed a crime? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: In what kind of circumstance. 23 A: Sometimes we've done checkpoints at 24 biker events and there would be numerous people there. 25 Q: Okay. Where there was going to be a
181 congregation of bikers and -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- you were stopping people from -- 4 who were on their way to that event? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And while you were at the 7 checkpoint, you did stop all vehicles that came up to the 8 checkpoint? 9 A: Which one is this? 10 Q: Let's focus on September 5th. 11 A: September 5th, yes. 12 Q: And you requested the drivers licence 13 or identification? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you do that for all of the 16 drivers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you were also asking for the 19 names and identification of the passengers in the 20 vehicles? 21 A: I'm not exactly certain of like how 22 detailed we went to at that time. 23 Q: I'm sorry I didn't -- I didn't catch 24 that. 25 A: I'm not sure how detailed we went
191 into, whether we got the passengers or whatever. If -- 2 if it was someone that was known to me I may not have 3 done everything. 4 Q: Okay. So if you knew the names of 5 the passengers you would just write them down on your 6 sheet -- 7 A: I'm not -- 8 Q: -- the sheet you were filling out; is 9 that right? 10 A: I can't exactly remember what I did 11 that day. 12 Q: Okay. If it was somebody who wasn't 13 known to you who was a passenger in the vehicle you would 14 ask them for their name and identification? 15 A: I can't exactly remember exactly what 16 I did there that day on the checkpoints. 17 Q: Was that not your instruction that 18 you were to get the name and identification of all the 19 occupants of vehicles? 20 A: I can't remember exactly what my 21 instructions were at that time. 22 Q: Did you search any vehicles? 23 A: I don't recall searching anybody. 24 Q: Are you aware of what legal authority 25 you were acting under to stop all of those vehicles?
201 A: I would say no at this time. 2 Q: Or to ask for the names and 3 identification of passengers of vehicles? 4 A: I would say no. I was -- I was 5 acting under instructions. 6 Q: I'm turning then to the incident on 7 September 5th and the evening involving the -- the picnic 8 tables in the sandy parking lot. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You've told us that assistance was 11 requested over the radio; what kind of assistance was 12 being requested? 13 A: I believe that one (1) of the first 14 officers who was down there asked for assistance. 15 Q: And do you know which officer that 16 was? 17 A: I don't recall, no. 18 Q: And when you arrived the picnic 19 tables were blocking the -- the road, the access road to 20 the beach? 21 A: Yes, they were on the road. Yes, the 22 road allowance. 23 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. 24 A: They were on the road allowance? 25 Q: And there were some people from the
211 Park in the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: How many? 4 A: I can't recall now. 5 Q: And you recalled a cruiser being in 6 amongst the picnic tables? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Was that cruiser there already by the 9 time you arrived? 10 A: Yes, there -- there was a couple of 11 cruisers or at least two (2) cars there when I -- when I 12 -- before I arrived. 13 Q: Okay. And were both cruisers in 14 amongst the picnic tables? 15 A: I can't -- I can't exactly remember 16 where everything was at that time. 17 Q: Okay. At least one (1) was in 18 amongst the picnic tables? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it was actually touching the 21 picnic tables from what you could observe? 22 A: I can't remember. 23 Q: Was that Constable Whelan's cruiser? 24 A: I don't remember. 25 Q: And all the officers, were they still
221 in their cruisers at that time? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: Did the -- the officers did get out 4 of their -- some officers got out of their cruisers -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- at some point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you get out of your cruiser? 9 A: Yes, I got out of my cruiser. 10 Q: And where did you go? 11 A: I went towards the park -- or the, 12 you know, what we're calling the sandy parking lot now, 13 the road allowance. 14 Q: And what did you do? 15 A: I walked towards the picnic tables, 16 and I just can't remember exactly how far I went into the 17 parking lot or the road allowance or whatever. I can't 18 remember exactly now. 19 Q: And was it clear to you then what 20 assistance you were supposed to be providing to the 21 officers who had requested it? 22 A: Yes, there seemed to be a 23 confrontation ongoing or by the time I got there. 24 Q: Okay. So there was confrontation 25 ongoing at that time?
231 A: Yes. Yes. 2 Q: What was the nature of that 3 confrontation? 4 A: Just -- there was police officers in 5 amongst the picnic tables and that's about it that I saw. 6 Q: Who -- who was in charge on the 7 ground during that period? Who would have had the 8 highest rank? 9 A: The -- I believe there was no 10 supervisors, there was all constables on the scene. 11 Q: So would any -- who was in charge? 12 A: We were -- I think we were likely 13 waiting for the supervisor to attend or whatever. If -- 14 if there's no supervisor there the senior officer would 15 take command, but in this situation I believe the 16 supervisor would be there right away because there was 17 supervisor's assigned to the area. 18 Q: So there was a supervisor there? 19 A: No, there was not. 20 Q: There was not? Okay. 21 A: But -- but there -- 22 Q: So no -- 23 A: -- there was supervisors assigned to 24 the area. 25 Q: And who was that?
241 A: I believe it was Sergeant Graham and 2 Sergeant Slack. I think they were both in the mobile. 3 Q: Okay. And whoever the supervisor was 4 they didn't show up before you left? 5 A: I don't believe they did, no. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But they may have, I'm not certain 8 about which officers came because it was kind of fluid; 9 officers left and arrived in short order. It didn't last 10 very long. 11 Q: Okay. And so no one in particular 12 was in charge of the constables there on the scene? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And was there any verbal direction 15 given to the -- the people, the Stoney Pointers, to 16 return to the Park? 17 A: I don't remember any conversation, 18 no. 19 Q: Okay. And you didn't give any such 20 direction? 21 A: I can't remember that now. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, you told Ms. Tuck-Jackson
251 yesterday that from what you saw it appeared that it was 2 the mere presence of the police officers in the sandy 3 parking lot that encouraged the Stoney Pointers to return 4 to the Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that there hadn't been a physical 7 confrontation that had -- had encouraged the Stoney 8 Pointers to return to the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: But isn't -- from what you've 11 described it sounds as though there in fact was a 12 confrontation occurring before the people returned to the 13 Park? 14 A: Yeah, it could be a verbal or it 15 could be a physical confrontation. 16 Q: So there was a verbal confrontation? 17 A: Oh, yes, there was -- there was 18 yelling going on, but I can't remember exactly 19 conversations now. 20 Q: Okay. And the OPP officers were 21 yelling back? 22 A: And there some -- I would assume 23 there was I can't remember now. 24 Q: You can't -- you assume there was? 25 A: Yeah.
261 Q: And you -- as you've told us the 2 cruiser was in amongst the picnic tables before you 3 arrived there so you don't know what sort of physical 4 confrontation if any could have occurred before you 5 arrived? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: So you can't say with any certainty 8 that there was no physical confrontation before you 9 arrived? 10 A: I didn't observe any. 11 Q: Were you present when Officer 12 Grandsden discharged his pepper spray? 13 A: I don't recall that. 14 Q: Did you return to that location after 15 you left on that evening? 16 A: Did I? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: I don't think so, no. 19 Q: And I understand from your notes that 20 there was a debriefing the next morning; would that have 21 been with Sergeant Korosec? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: It may have been but I can't -- I
271 didn't write down who was at the -- attended the 2 briefing. 3 Q: I see. Okay. And I know you don't 4 have a -- a great deal of memory about what happened 5 during that debriefing but certainly there would have 6 been discussion about that incident that you've just 7 described? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you -- 10 A: Or there -- sorry, there may have 11 been. 12 Q: There may have been? 13 A: There may have been there, right. 14 Q: Okay. You assume -- 15 A: I don't -- I don't recall the 16 debriefing and what was discussed, so. 17 Q: Okay. And you assume there would 18 have been discussion of that incident? 19 A: It's quite possibly but I can't say 20 for certain. 21 Q: And who would have been responsible 22 for reporting what had occurred on the sandy parking? 23 A: Well, the -- the supervisors became 24 aware of what happened so that would be them. 25
281 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Did you know Bonnie Bressette? 4 A: Yes, or the -- I know the name and I 5 -- sometimes I have a problem with faces, so as years go 6 on I knew some people and I didn't know some people so 7 when... 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: In September of 1995 -- well, Bonnie 11 Bressette you knew that she had at one point been the 12 Chief of the Kettle Point and Stony Point First Nation? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So she was known to you in that 15 office? 16 A: Yes. Yes. 17 Q: And you would have recognized her if 18 you saw her in September 1995? 19 A: I can't say for certain. 20 Q: Do you recall her leaving the Camp 21 through your checkpoint with her grandchildren and 22 daughter on September 6th, 1995? 23 A: Not right now, no. 24 Q: Okay. Skipping ahead then to after 25 the shooting. You've told us that -- about a woman who
291 came out to the checkpoint and asked for an ambulance and 2 somebody told her that the injured person would have to 3 be brought out to the intersection? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that -- that wasn't you? 6 A: It wasn't me. 7 Q: You were close by and you heard the 8 conversation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were you aware -- were you aware 11 that the injured person was a teenager? 12 A: No, I was not. 13 Q: Were you aware that it was feared he 14 had been shot? 15 A: No, I was not. 16 Q: Did you know anything about his 17 condition before -- had the -- were the officers -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- aware of any -- of her (sic) 20 condition before they were told they he to be brought out 21 to the intersection? 22 A: No, I was not aware. 23 Q: Did you consider that it may pose 24 some risk to him to be moved? 25 A: No, I did not.
301 Q: And you didn't discuss that with any 2 of the other officers there? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And when the ambulance arrived it was 5 -- the ambulance was not there at the time when you had 6 that -- that conversation was held between the woman and 7 the other OPP officer? 8 A: Not the initial conversation, no. 9 Q: Right. And how long after that did 10 the ambulance arrive? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: And when the ambulance arrived they 13 were told -- the ambulance attendants were told to take 14 cover in the ditch? 15 A: I don't recall that. 16 Q: You don't recall that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And did you have your long gun out at 19 the time? 20 A: I can't remember exactly when the -- 21 if it was out there or not. I don't remem -- don't 22 recall. 23 Q: So then the -- the women -- two ( 2) 24 women came out with the injured person in a car? 25 A: Yes.
311 Q: And now many officers were at that 2 checkpoint at that time? 3 A: I'm not certain. Likely between six 4 (6) and ten (10). 5 Q: Okay. You -- you had your long gun 6 out at that time when the -- the car came out to the 7 intersection, right? 8 A: I -- I really don't remember the 9 details of that -- I -- you know, exactly when I had a 10 long gun out or not. 11 Q: Okay. Did you remember that other 12 officers had their long guns out at that time? 13 A: I don't even remember that. 14 Q: Were you aware that the two (2) women 15 were the injured party's mother and aunt? 16 A: No, I was not. 17 Q: And you heard shouting back and forth 18 between the OPP officers at the checkpoint and the women? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It was a very -- the women were -- 21 appeared to be quite upset? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And we've heard from Gina George who 24 was the injured party's mother that an officer said words 25 to the affect of:
321 "You bitches, put your arms in the air, 2 put your hands in the air and get away 3 from that car. All three (3) of you 4 out of that car." 5 Do -- do you remember hearing words such 6 as that? 7 A: No, I do not. 8 Q: Did you say that to Gina George? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Now once the ambulance attendants 11 were dealing with the injured person, were you standing 12 close by at that time and could hear the conversation? 13 A: No. I -- I stayed in the ditch on 14 the -- I guess the other side of the road and I wasn't 15 close to the ambulance at all. Or I wasn't as close as 16 other officers were. 17 Q: Okay. So there were other officers 18 who were closer? 19 A: Yes. Just -- a couple of officers 20 went up and clear -- cleared the car. 21 Q: And did that officer report to you 22 that the injured person was a teenager or was a minor? 23 A: I don't remember any conversation. 24 Q: And did you observe one of the women 25 who we've learned was Gina George, attempted to accompany
331 her son in the ambulance? 2 A: I have no knowledge of that. 3 Q: And she was told that she couldn't go 4 with him. 5 A: I don't have any knowledge about 6 that. 7 Q: It wouldn't have been you, as you've 8 said you weren't -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And prior to being placed in 11 the ambulance, you know now it was Nicholas Cotrelle, 12 right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Nicholas Cotrelle was not placed 15 under arrest before he was placed in the ambulance. 16 A: I have no knowledge of that. 17 Q: Were you under any instructions to 18 arrest him? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, after you heard the -- the 24 shooting on the radio transmission and the checkpoint was 25 moved back, I understand that you were in the ditch; is
341 that right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the other officers were in the 4 ditch? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the cruisers were on the side of 7 the road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And were you behind them? 10 A: I'm not certain exactly what position 11 I had, but rel -- relative to the cruiser. 12 Q: But someone who was driving up to 13 that intersection wouldn't necessarily see you, because 14 you were in the ditch, right? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And the cruisers weren't blocking the 17 intersection, they were on the side of the road, as 18 you've said? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I take it from your testimony 21 yesterday and from your notes, you didn't observe any 22 vehicle blast through a checkpoint at that time, right? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Now, I'm sure you are aware that 25 there were some mugs and T-shirts that were created as
351 souvenirs -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- of the Ipperwash operation? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Were you involved in the creation of 6 those souvenirs? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you ever purchase or receive a 9 mug or T-shirt? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Thank you very much. Those are all 12 my questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 14 Ms. Esmonde. 15 Mr. Neil, are you cross-examining or Mr. 16 Ross? Mr. Neil...? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Good morning, 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 23 morning. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CAMERON NEIL:
361 Q: Good morning, sir. 2 A: Morning. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Officer, my name is Cam Neil. I'm 7 one of the lawyers for the residents of Aazhoodena, also 8 known as Stoney Pointers. 9 I want to start off by asking you about 10 your current position, which I believe is a community 11 sergeant; is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And in your evidence yesterday, I 14 overheard you say that part of that role is dealing with 15 politicians? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Could you please elaborate on that 18 point for me. 19 A: Well, the way the Detachment is 20 structured right now is the -- it's run by an inspector 21 out of Petrolia which covers the Lambton group of 22 contracts. 23 My role is to be the local contact with 24 the politicians in Lambton Shores. 25 Q: Could you give me examples of those
371 politicians? 2 A: Oh, the Mayor. I'd go talk to the 3 Mayor. I talk to Councillors if they're having an issue 4 with, you know, patrols, or things like that. 5 Q: What about MPP's? 6 A: No, I've never met with an MPP. 7 Q: MP -- 8 A: Or, no, I shouldn't say that I've 9 never met, I don't deal with them on a regular basis at 10 all. 11 Q: Not in that role? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Is it possible that you could? 14 A: I answer the phone if anybody calls 15 and wants to talk to the supervisor of Lambton Shores, I 16 will talk to them. 17 Q: Do you know if that position existed 18 in 1995? 19 A: It did not. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: As part of that role, do you share 24 information about OPP activities with politicians if they 25 request certain information?
381 A: If they asked if we were doing -- 2 working on a crime or, you know, a crime problem or youth 3 problem, we'd -- I'd discuss, yes, with the politicians 4 about what we're doing or what we plan to do. 5 Q: And does it go the other way, that 6 the politicians sometimes inform you of certain things 7 and you can pass it on to the OPP? 8 A: Well, they'll -- sometimes they'll, 9 like, advise me of a -- a problem and, you know, request 10 assistance dealing with it or special event that might 11 need policing -- func -- at special policing functions. 12 Q: So it sounds like you're saying it's 13 kind of a go-between -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- role? Could you say it would be a 16 buffer? 17 A: I wouldn't say a buffer, just -- it's 18 -- that's my role. 19 Q: Did it -- did this role exist before 20 you took the position? 21 A: Not in this -- in the format that we 22 have now. 23 Q: In a similar format? 24 A: The detachment has -- structure has 25 changed several times.
391 Q: Right. 2 A: And so it's kind of -- we always had 3 supervisors at the -- at the detachment but just -- it's 4 a little more set right now. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I want to talk to you about cursing 10 and swearing for a moment. 11 In your experience over '93, '94, and '95 12 one (1) of your superior officers was Mark Wright, 13 correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you know him to swear a lot? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You didn't know him to swear a lot? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Was it common for you to hear cursing 20 on an everyday occurrence amongst your fellow OPP 21 members? 22 A: I guess some people swear more than 23 others as a routine basis or something like that. 24 Q: It wouldn't be surprising to hear 25 somebody swear --
401 A: No. 2 Q: -- throughout the course of your 3 duties? 4 A: No. 5 Q: It was basically an accepted way of 6 expressing one's self? 7 A: Yes, I could say that. 8 Q: Would you compare it to say, for 9 example, a locker room or a dressing room of a sports 10 team, like that kind of talk? 11 A: I'd hate to make comparisons but... 12 Q: Were you aware that Mark Wright's 13 nickname was Popcorn? 14 A: Yes, I've heard that. 15 Q: Did you refer to him as Popcorn? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you refer to him as Mouse? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you know how he got the name 20 Popcorn? 21 A: No, I just heard what's in the 22 Inquiry. 23 Q: You'll recall yesterday you testified 24 about a barricade incident in February of 1995 at the 25 Kettle Point Reserve?
411 A: Yes. 2 Q: What was Mark Wright's role in that 3 situation as far as you knew? 4 A: I don't remember. 5 Q: You don't remember? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Do you remember what Dale Linton's 8 role was? 9 A: No, but I would assume he'd be -- if 10 he -- if he was there he was an Incident Commander. 11 Q: And you talked about there was a bit 12 of a problem with the inner perimeter being breached by 13 First Nations people throughout that occurrence? 14 A: I -- I didn't say that, I just said-- 15 Q: You didn't say that? 16 A: No. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think he said a 18 person. I think he said one (1) person, he didn't say 19 First Nations people. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 22 Q: One (1) person that you encountered? 23 A: And I'm -- I'm the -- I was on the 24 outer perimeter. 25 Q: Yes.
421 A: So we had -- 2 Q: So you had no experience of any 3 others? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Were you aware in speaking with your 6 fellow OPP members that that was occurring in other 7 locations? 8 A: I'd heard that there were some issues 9 with that on the radio. 10 Q: Do you recall whether Dale Linton or 11 Mark Wright expressed frustration over that happening? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: So I take it you don't recall Mark 14 Wright expressing any opinion on Dale Linton over that 15 occurrence? 16 A: No, I do not. 17 Q: Now, over the years of your policing 18 this area, '93, '94, and '95, you had occasion to speak 19 with Maynard T. George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And other members of the Kettle and 22 Stony Point Band? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I believe you spoke to this 25 yesterday that you understood there were frustrations
431 over the Federal Government not returning the lands at 2 CFB Ipperwash? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: As well as frustrations over broken 5 promises? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And during this time I believe you 8 were in a role of monitoring Camp Ipperwash, is that the 9 case? 10 A: Which -- during those two (2) years 11 or whatever or...? 12 Q: '93, '94? 13 A: In '93 when I was doing the Acting 14 Sergeant role it was my duty to -- or one (1) of the 15 assignments was to check for what was happening at the 16 Camp and report to District Headquarters. 17 Other than that actual monitoring part of 18 it, I wouldn't say that was -- you know, it's part of a 19 policing function if there's an issue going on, needs to 20 be aware of it and if you find anything else to report 21 it. 22 Q: Were you specifically assigned to 23 keep track of the people who coming and going? 24 A: No, I was not. 25 Q: And you had occasion to speak with
441 personnel at the Military Base over this timeframe? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: Did you ever hear them refer to the 4 occupation of the range as Operation Maple? 5 A: I don't recall that, no. 6 Q: That's distinct from Project Maple? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I want to skip ahead to the summer of 12 1995, July/August. You were assigned to patrol that 13 general area of Ipperwash during that timeframe? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now you -- were you aware that 16 certain signs in and around that area had been painted to 17 prevent park users from straying onto the Military Base? 18 This is when the Stoney Pointers had occupied CFB -- 19 A: Yes, I believe so. 20 Q: And there were instances where for 21 whatever reason, those signs weren't heeded and campers 22 would stray onto the beach at CFB Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And there were, in fact, some 25 confrontations between First Nations people and campers
451 as a result of that? 2 A: I guess -- or -- or just residents or 3 whatever. I wouldn't just say campers. 4 Q: And I believe you testified that one 5 of those incidents involved Dudley George. I -- I 6 believe you testified that he chased people that -- in a 7 truck; is that correct? 8 A: I can check to refresh my memory on 9 that one. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes, I have that. 14 Q: So you do recall, that having 15 refreshed your memory? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So I -- I take it you were aware that 18 the First Nations people were frustrated over the fact 19 that people were straying onto that portion of the beach? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: If I could skip ahead to September 4, 22 1995 which is when the actual Park occupation occurred. 23 Prior to your attendance after the occupation, had you 24 received any briefing that you can recall? 25 A: We had briefings before -- or, like,
461 minor briefings about the patrols. 2 Q: That day, earlier, the previous day, 3 the day before that -- 4 A: We -- we had some briefings, yes. 5 But, to what extent they were, I forget now. 6 Q: Do you recall any discussions about 7 the importance of being 'in their face'? 8 A: No, I don't recall that. 9 Q: Do you recall discussions about the 10 occupation being illegal? 11 A: No, I don't recall. 12 Q: Was that your feeling generally over 13 the course of the 4th, 5th and 6th that the occupation 14 was illegal? 15 A: I guess that's a debatable point. 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: That's a debatable point. 18 Q: I just want to know what your view 19 was at the time if you can recall. 20 A: Yes. My belief at the time if they 21 had -- the Natives had taken over the Park, it was an 22 illegal occupation. 23 Q: And in fact, it was trespassing in 24 your view? 25 A: Yes.
471 Q: Were you instructed to arrest if 2 possible going into that September 4 confrontation? It 3 didn't start out as a confrontation but when you 4 initially went to the Park, beforehand were you told to 5 arrest if possible? 6 A: No, no. 7 Q: That wasn't a directive that you 8 received? 9 A: No. Not as part -- for the 10 occupation part, no. 11 Q: Now, you were aware of claims of a 12 burial ground throughout this time period, were you not? 13 A: In where, in the Park? 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: I can't remember exactly when that 16 information came to me? 17 Q: You're not sure when you learned of 18 that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: But you were certainly alive to the 21 fact that the Stoney Pointers were saying it was their 22 land? 23 A: The Park? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I can't say exactly when I knew that
481 information, either. 2 Q: Okay. Generally speaking, did you 3 consider the people who occupied the Park on September 4 the 4th to be hooligans? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Thugs? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Terrorists? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So I'm talking about this incident 11 that ended up with Judas George smashing the back of a 12 police cruiser. 13 And I'm going to suggest to you that when 14 the OPP first arrived, the idea was that there were going 15 to be arrests, and the only reason there weren't arrests 16 is that the OPP was outnumbered. 17 Do you agree with that? 18 A: No, because I -- I -- you'd have to 19 talk to someone in command who was making those 20 decisions. 21 Q: So basically, you -- you showed up 22 and you were taking instructions? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
491 Q: And yesterday in cross-examination 2 you had said that, basically, things didn't start out 3 confrontational, they sort of built up to a 4 confrontation; things had escalated; is that correct? 5 A: Over what time period? 6 Q: I'm talking about when you first 7 arrived, the Stoney Pointers had occupied the Park, that 8 the police were there, the occupiers were there for some 9 period of time -- 10 A: Hmm. 11 Q: -- things started out not so 12 confrontational and it escalated. 13 A: That's correct. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And you recall that Les Kobayashi was 18 -- was there with the OPP at the time? 19 A: I can't remember if Les was there or 20 not. 21 Q: We've heard evidence that he was. 22 You don't dispute that he was? 23 A: I don't dispute -- I know -- I have 24 in my notes that Don Matheson was there. 25 Q: Now, Les Kobayashi on October 26th,
501 2005, at pages 197 to 202 testified that, initially, 2 people were getting along, then it escalated to a 3 confrontational situation, and that's consistent with 4 what you just told me, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that much of the discussion over 7 this timeframe was about the Stoney Pointers wanting the 8 OPP to leave? 9 A: Yeah, that was -- that happened. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, you were out of your car? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Initially, did you have any idea how 16 long you were supposed to be there? What was -- what was 17 the plan going into that? 18 A: I didn't have any instructions on the 19 plan when I -- when I returned. 20 Q: No instructions? 21 A: Not -- not when I arrived back. 22 Q: Okay. Are you aware of an incident 23 occurring over this timeframe at a Provincial Park known 24 as Serpent Mounds? 25 A: I'm -- I can't recall exactly, no.
511 Q: You've heard about that at some 2 point? 3 A: I think so, yes. 4 Q: But not during that timeframe? 5 A: I -- 6 Q: You can't recall? 7 A: I can't recall. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, later that day, or later that 12 evening, on the 4th, you were part of an operation to 13 what you described as delivering a message? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you weren't aware that it was a 16 notice of trespass? 17 A: No, I can't recall exactly -- or I'm 18 not sure if I ever knew exactly what the message was 19 going to be. 20 Q: Right. And you were protecting Vince 21 George and Les Kobayashi, correct? 22 A: Yes, just back-up only. 23 Q: Do you have any idea who decided to 24 do this? 25 A: To -- decided to sign the --
521 Q: Decided to go at night with Les 2 Kobayashi and Vince George and deliver a message? 3 A: That would be -- I took it from my 4 supervisor, likely Sergeant Korosec, or Sergeant Graham. 5 Q: Do you recall if there was any 6 discussion about waiting until the morning? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And you were suited up in your ERT 9 gear? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: With -- including weapons; what kind 12 of weapons did you have? 13 A: I believe we only had -- we didn't 14 have our long guns, we only had our sidearms. 15 Q: Just sidearms? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did you wear a bulletpoof vest? 18 A: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 20 Mr. Neil, I'm a little confused, what day are you 21 referring to? 22 MR. CAMERON NEIL: September the 4th, the 23 evening -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 4th, 25 you're still on the 4th?
531 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 3 okay. 4 MR. CAMERON NEIL: -- trespass -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then I'm 6 with you. 7 MR. CAMERON NEIL: -- service of the 8 trespass notice. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 12 Q: Was part of your mandate, if you can 13 recall, to also get an idea of what was going on in the 14 Park? 15 A: It was not. 16 Q: Or if it was, you weren't told that? 17 A: That's -- that's correct. 18 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 19 cohabiting the Park with the Stoney Pointers? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you describe what that was about? 22 A: At one time during the evening there, 23 the 4th, Sergeant Korosec advised me that he had 24 instructions that when we had sufficient manpower, we 25 would move to the -- or some of us would move to the
541 maintenance building. 2 Q: And that move was to take place on 3 the 4th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: In the evening? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did that happen? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And do you know why? 10 A: I don't think we had sufficient 11 resources to do it. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Do you recall what the tactical 16 significance of the maintenance building was? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I'm not going to be able to assist 19 you, but I believe you attended a debriefing at 8:30 a.m. 20 on September the 5th. 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: Was there discussion of this 23 cohabitation agenda that morning? 24 A: I don't recall that, no. 25 Q: Was there discussions of attempting
551 to be in the face of the Stoney Pointers? 2 A: I didn't make any notes about the 3 debriefing? 4 Q: So other -- basically, you can't help 5 me? 6 A: No, I can't help you. 7 Q: Okay. Well, how about a briefing you 8 attended at 5:30 that same day, September the 5th? Do 9 you have any recollection outside of your notes? 10 A: I have some, but not a -- a great 11 deal. 12 Q: Do you recall discussion of this 13 cohabitation approach? 14 A: I don't recall that, no. 15 Q: Do you recall any discussions of 16 negotiations? 17 A: No. 18 Q: What about getting the people out of 19 the Park? 20 A: No, I didn't -- no instructions on 21 that, I don't remember any instructions. 22 Q: Any discussion about community 23 opinion at the time? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Any discussion about the community --
561 the community being terrorized? 2 A: No, I don't remember that. 3 Q: Any discussion of an injunction? 4 A: I don't even -- obviously that flew 5 around and I can't say if that was discussed at that 6 debriefing, or that briefing or not. 7 Q: You recall the idea of an injunction 8 being sought or being obtained -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- over the course of this incident? 11 A: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I want to talk briefly about your 16 role as an officer manning checkpoints. I hope this 17 wasn't covered earlier by My Friend. 18 One of the things that you were to do was 19 to attempt to keep out agitators and unknowns; you 20 testified to that yesterday? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: How were you going to do that? 23 A: I think that was more of a -- an 24 intelligence gathering part; if we did locate a, you 25 know, an agitator or whatever.
571 Q: I see. 2 A: Hmm. 3 Q: Obviously, it's easy to know if you 4 don't know someone. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you did know quite a few of the 7 people in -- in the community as having patrolled and 8 policed that area for some time. 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: You would have been a resource for 11 that kind of information, who people were? 12 A: I could have been, yes. 13 Q: Were you used in that -- in that way? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you recall having use of a photo 16 album over the course of the 4th, 5th and 6th, or a photo 17 folder? 18 A: I don't recall that now. 19 Q: And presumably -- well, I'll leave it 20 there. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, we've had some of your evidence 25 on the picnic table incident the night of September the
581 5th and it's been suggested to you that certain picnic 2 tables or a picnic table was -- was rammed by a police 3 cruiser but you did not see that? 4 A: No, I don't remember that, no. 5 Q: You didn't see people sitting on the 6 picnic tables when you arrived? 7 A: I -- I -- it's -- it's been a lot of 8 years, I forget exactly what I saw or -- or that part of 9 it. 10 Q: All right. Now, you weren't -- you 11 arrived after there were cars already there, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You did say that there was a car in 14 and amongst the picnic tables? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you know how it came to be in and 17 amongst the picnic tables? 18 A: No, it was there when I got there, I 19 believe. 20 Q: Was it moving when you got there? 21 A: I don't exactly recall. 22 Q: And police did get out of their 23 vehicles? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall if there was cursing
591 and swearing coming from the police officers towards the 2 Stoney Pointers? 3 A: I don't recall that, no. 4 Q: Not from you? 5 A: Not from me, no. 6 Q: Do you recall anyone saying, "Welcome 7 to Canada"? 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 Q: Did you ever say that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I'm going to ask you about -- and 12 again I can't help you, I don't know what your note 13 reference is, but I believe you had a debriefing at 7:15 14 a.m. on September the 6th; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I'm going to ask you again do you 17 recall a discussion about cohabitation? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- I have no notes on that briefing. 21 Q: No notes whatsoever? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No independent recollection? 24 A: No, other than I knew that the -- got 25 the assignment to remove the picnic tables at that
601 briefing -- debriefing. 2 Q: And those were the ERT members that 3 were going to be -- 4 A: Deployed, yes. 5 Q: -- the picnic tables? Do you recall 6 what the discussions were amongst the ERT members going 7 into that operation, generally? 8 A: On that morning? 9 Q: Whenever it was that the operation 10 went down going to remove the picnic tables. Were you 11 involved in that operation? 12 A: Yes, I was. 13 Q: And do you recall -- I mean you were 14 obviously talking with your members at the time -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- your fellow -- 17 A: Members, yeah. 18 Q: -- police officers. Do you recall 19 any discussions at all? 20 A: I don't -- obviously we talked but I 21 don't know what you're trying to get at. 22 Q: I'm not trying to get at anything 23 necessarily -- 24 A: We -- we talked but I don't remember 25 anything about just general conversation or --
611 Q: Do you recall any -- any opinions 2 being expressed with respect to the Stoney Point people? 3 A: I don't recall that, no. 4 Q: Have you ever heard the name Jim 5 Moses? 6 A: I've heard it in the Inquiry. 7 Q: And that's -- that's the only way 8 you've heard of it? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And was there anyone inside the Park 11 that you were aware of from the OPP over the course of 12 the 4th, 5th, and 6th? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No, there wasn't or not that you're 15 aware of? 16 A: I'm not aware of any. 17 Q: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Did you have occasion to watch news 22 reports over the course of the 6th -- television? 23 A: Over the 6th? 24 Q: That you can recall? 25 A: I don't think I'd have much time.
621 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I don't think I had much time that 3 day. 4 Q: Yeah, it was a busy day. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you have any -- any indication 7 that the -- the Premier of Ontario at the time was 8 watching the incident closely? 9 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 10 Q: Did you know that local politicians 11 were getting involved in the incident? 12 A: I may have heard some talk but I 13 don't recall -- 14 Q: You don't recall seeing any local 15 politicians over that timeframe? 16 A: I don't recall that time, no. 17 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Maybe that's the end 18 of the question. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 20 end of it, he said he didn't see any. 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I would hope that 22 that's the end of the question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 24 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, get involved 25 in --
631 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we'll 2 see. I don't see, if he didn't see anybody, where he can 3 go from there but let's see. 4 MR. CAMERON NEIL: That's the end of it. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, 'getting 7 involved' is -- is a pretty loose term. 8 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Anyways I have his 9 answer. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Just a brief moment. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Thank you, Officer 19 those are all my questions. Thank you, Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Neil. 22 Mr. George...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
641 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Good morning. I'll 2 just be a few moments. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: 6 Q: Good morning, Officer Parks. 7 A: Good morning. 8 Q: My name is Jonathan George and I 9 appear for the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation and on 10 occasion, as is the case today, I -- I represent the 11 Chiefs on Ontario. I also represent Chief Tom Bressette. 12 I just have a few questions for you 13 relating to one (1) specific area and that is your 14 encounter with Chief Bressette and your attendance at the 15 second checkpoint, I believe, which was at or near 16 Ravenswood Line at Highway 21. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, as I understand it, on 19 the evening of September 6th you were initially, at least 20 as of you coming onto your shift at 6:00 or 6:30, was it 21 -- were at -- you and other officers were at Checkpoint 22 'D' near the main entrance of the Army Camp gate? 23 Do I have that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And it was at that location
651 that you heard gunshots over the radio and it's at that 2 location or near that location that you encountered a 3 woman seeking the ambulance? 4 Do I have that right as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now it was at some point after 7 the shooting that you were moved to the location on 8 Ravenswood Line? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Now, do you recall how long 11 after that you were moved to that location? 12 A: It wasn't long after the ambulance 13 came up. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: It came -- was -- went away. 16 Q: Okay. Now, one (1) thing that wasn't 17 clear to me in your evidence yesterday was who attended 18 at that second checkpoint with you. Now I -- we know 19 that Dellemonache went there, who else -- 20 A: That was -- that was it. 21 Q: Okay. Did other officers join you at 22 some point at that location? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And it was at that location 25 that you encountered Chief Bressette?
661 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And I wasn't clear on this 3 part of your evidence as well, but Chief Bressette 4 testified that he was a passenger in someone else's car; 5 is that how you recall it as well? 6 A: That's -- that's what I recall, yes. 7 Q: Okay. But you don't recall who he 8 was with? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Now, Chief Bressette gave 11 testimony on March 2nd, 2005 and -- well, first of all, 12 let -- let me tell you this: Chief Bressette testified 13 that he on the evening of September 6th encountered only 14 two (2) checkpoints; one, near the MNR parking lot on 15 East Parkway Drive. 16 You were never at that location? 17 A: Not on that day, no. 18 Q: Okay. And the second one he 19 testified about was -- was -- he initially testified it 20 was at -- near Army Camp Road and -- and Highway 21, but 21 it was eventually clarified that it was the extension of 22 Ravenswood Line. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And, fair to assume, that's the 25 checkpoint you were at.
671 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Now at -- you spoke to this a 3 little bit yesterday, but at the time you knew Chief 4 Bressette to be a well respected and trusted leader, not 5 only within his own community but in the broader local 6 community? 7 Would you agree with that? 8 A: I knew Tom Bressette. I knew the 9 Chief then and I don't know about the respect or 10 whatever. 11 Q: Okay. Now Chief Bressette testified 12 when Mr. Millar was questioning him on March 2nd that -- 13 and -- and I'll read his testimony to you and the lead up 14 to this question was him and Gerald George who was the 15 other person in the vehicle coming to the second 16 checkpoint. Chief Bressette testified that: 17 "We got stopped by the OPP's. They had 18 guns pointed at us and a bright light 19 on the car." 20 First of all, do you remember any bright 21 lights being pointed at vehicles who encountered that 22 checkpoint? 23 A: I don't remember but we could have 24 been using a -- roof lights of the cruiser. 25 Q: Okay. And when he testified that
681 there were guns pointed at him, I was a little unclear on 2 your testimony at that point yesterday. 3 You believed that Dellemonache did have a 4 long gun. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And can we agree that in all 7 likelihood the guns were pointed at the occupants of 8 vehicles you encountered? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Chief Bressette also testified 11 that during that same encounter, him and Gerald George 12 were requested by someone to show their hands, to have 13 their hands in the air. 14 Do you recall that? 15 A: I don't recall that, but that's quite 16 possible. 17 Q: Okay. He's likely right when he says 18 that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Chief Bressette also 21 testified, when being questioned by Mr. Millar, that 22 during that same encounter, he could observe red dot, 23 which we -- which we believe to be something from a sight 24 of a gun, appearing on him and Gerald George? 25 A: I -- I --
691 Q: Do you know whether or not the 2 weapons that you and Dellemonache had were equipped with 3 that? 4 A: They were not equipped with that. 5 Q: I just want to clarify one (1) other 6 thing, Officer Parks, quickly, and I think it's quite 7 obvious to everyone, but Chief Bressette testified that 8 who he encountered at this second checkpoint was, we 9 believe to be Stan Korosec. 10 A: Hmm. 11 Q: Stan Korosec wasn't there? 12 A: No, he was not. 13 Q: Okay. Chief Bressette simply 14 describes someone who was familiar to him who had worked 15 at the Forest Detachment. 16 A: That was me. 17 Q: Okay. You had been working at the 18 local Detachment for several years -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- as of September '95? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you, Commissioner, those 23 are my questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. George.
701 Yes, Mr. Roy...? 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: Mr. Commissioner, all 3 the areas that I'd intended on covering have already been 4 covered very -- very well by My Friends, so I have no 5 further questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Roy. 8 Mr. Roland...? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, 13 unfortunately, Mr. George didn't give us any notice at 14 all of his questions concerning Tom Bressette and the 15 encounter there. 16 I've -- I've had a quick look back at the 17 transcript in the few minutes that he was doing it and I 18 invite you to look at the transcript. 19 I think he -- and he -- we may -- I may be 20 in agreement with Mr. George that it appears from Mr. -- 21 from Tom Bressette's testimony that he was at another 22 checkpoint where there were guns pointed at him, but it 23 doesn't appear -- it isn't clear from his testimony that 24 it was at the checkpoint where this Witness was, at 25 Ravenswood.
711 But I haven't had a chance to look -- to 2 decipher -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No -- no -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- this -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- this Witness was 6 not -- his checkpoint was not at Ravenswood. The 7 checkpoint that Mr. Parks testified to was at Ravenswood 8 Line and Army Camp Road which is not Ravenswood. 9 There was another checkpoint that Mr. 10 Parks indicated he was back later on, in -- but not -- he 11 was at Ravenswood Line and Army Camp Road. And -- 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, anyway, I don't 13 think it's clear from the evidence -- from Mr. Tom 14 Bressette's evidence that this was the same checkpoint 15 that this witness was at -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- with respect to the 18 pointing of the guns. But -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can make 20 that argument -- 21 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: First of all, 22 Commissioner, I don't -- I think my -- my obligations 23 extend to providing notice with respect to documents I'm 24 going to refer to. So I'd just clear up that point. 25 I actually agree with My Friend. There is
721 actually some uncertainty with respect to the roadblocks, 2 that's why I -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You tried to 4 clarify -- 5 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: -- this Witness, 6 you know, is it likely there were guns pointed at him, 7 were there lights, you know -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Are you the local - 10 - are you local at the Detachment and, you know, it clear 11 up the confusion with Stan Korosec and this officer. 12 That was the only reason for addressing 13 that with him. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 15 Mr. George. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay, I have a few 17 questions then, in re-examination of Sergeant Parks. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: First of all, Sergeant Parks, let me 21 deal with the issue of the automatic gunfire that you 22 heard on September the -- September the 5th. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 5th. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
731 September the 5th. And that was late -- 2 late in the evening, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you've described it as a crisp 5 and repetitive sound in your evidence. Is that a 6 distinctive sound, distinctive from either semi- 7 automatic, non-automatic or semi-automatic at all, fire 8 crackers or -- or shot guns? 9 Is it -- is there some -- is the 10 description of crisp and repetitive distinctive to 11 automatic fire? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you say it -- I won't take you to 14 it, but you say at Tab 23 in the radio -- first radio 15 trans -- or in the radio transmission, I think it was the 16 second radio transmission, that in describing the 17 numbers, that it was --let me get the numbers right -- 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Fifty (50) to a 19 hundred (100). 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Fifty (50) to a hundred 21 (100), anyhow. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: What did you mean by "anyhow"?
741 A: It happens too quick to count them, 2 so, it's just an estimate. 3 Q: All right. And was there any doubt 4 at the time that what -- in your mind at the time, that 5 what you heard was automatic gunfire? 6 A: No doubt at all. 7 Q: Is there any doubt today in your mind 8 that what you heard was automatic gunfire? 9 A: No doubt at all. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, Mr. Neil asked you about your -- 14 your current experience or your current experience, your 15 dealing -- and dealing with politicians, and in your 16 current experience I gather from your resume you're also 17 dealing with -- as the First Nations Liaison Officer for 18 Stoney Point? 19 A: Yes, I am. 20 Q: And I -- I gather you're dealing with 21 them in -- in much the same way you're dealing with 22 politicians; that is you're dealing with policing issues 23 at Stoney Point? 24 A: Yes, I am. 25 Q: As you are with politicians dealing
751 with policing issues in the communities? 2 A: Yes, I am. 3 Q: You were -- you were asked by Mr. 4 Neil about whether you'd been -- you were assigned to 5 keep track of occupiers or people actually coming and 6 going into the Army Camp in 1993, '94 and '95 before the 7 takeover of the barracks, and you indicated that you 8 weren't -- you weren't assigned to keep track of people 9 coming and going into the Army Camp? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: When you were Acting Sergeant in 1993 12 was anybody under your supervision assigned to do that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: That is, to keep track of people 15 coming and going? 16 A: No, they were not. 17 Q: Let me go to September 4/'95 late in 18 the evening when you attended as an ERT member at the 19 Park to deliver a message or to -- to provide backup and 20 security for Vince George and Les Kobayashi delivering a 21 message, and you were asked were you in ERT gear and you 22 said yes, you were. 23 Can you describe what ERT gear you had? 24 A: I was just wearing a grey tactical 25 uniform.
761 Q: Yes. You didn't have any crowd 2 control gear? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. Thank you, Mr. Parks, those are 5 my questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Roland. 8 Ms. Hensel...? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, one (1) other 10 thing. I see Mr. -- well, I'll wait -- wait until Mr. 11 Millar's back. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 16 Hensel...? 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, 18 Commissioner, I have no further questions for Sergeant 19 Parks but I would like to take this opportunity to thank 20 him for his assistance and his testimony over the last 21 two (2) days. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 24 echo that. Thank you very much for coming and giving us 25 your evidence and we'll take a morning break now.
771 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 2 3 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 6 for fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 10:06 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 10:26 a.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. The Commission calls as the next witness, 15 Mr. Neil Whelan. 16 17 NEIL MICHAEL JOHN WHELAN, Sworn 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 morning. 21 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 22 23 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Mr. Whelan, if I could ask you to 25 turn to Tab 1 of the black book of documents in front of
781 you. 2 And the document at Tab 1 is your resume? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: The resume that you created for us? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And perhaps we could -- it's Inquiry 7 Document -- actually it was prepared before. It's 8 Inquiry Document 2005550. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1229, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1229: Document Number 2005550. 12 Curriculum Vitae of Neil M.J. 13 Whelan. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And as I understand it, you became a 17 Member of the Ontario Provincial Police in 1971? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And you were stationed after your 20 training at the Merlin Detachment for approximately 21 twenty (20) years? 22 A: I first started out at Petrolia 23 Detachment. 24 Q: Yes. And -- 25 A: And then subsequently was transferred
791 to Merlin Detachment in 1973. 2 Q: And -- in 1973 you -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- were transferred to Merlin. And 5 Merlin is located, as I understand it, west of -- south 6 and west of Chatham? 7 A: That's correct. Right around -- 8 right along Lake Erie. 9 Q: Along Lake Erie? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were at the Merlin Detachment 12 for approximately twenty (20) years? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And in 1990 I understand that you 15 were transferred to the Chatham Detachment? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And the -- you retired from the OPP 18 at April of 2001? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And in 1993 you took a Crowd Control 21 Squad course in London; is that correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And can you tell us what that 24 training consisted of? 25 A: Basically it was crowd control as far
801 as different positions and movements in controlling 2 crowds with different formations. 3 Q: And that was a four (4) day course? 4 A: It was. 5 Q: And were you a member -- as a result 6 of this training, did you become a member of a -- what we 7 now know as the Emergency Response Team? 8 A: I did, yes. 9 Q: And was it called the Emergency 10 Response Team back then? 11 A: No. It was just called a Crowd 12 Control Squad. 13 Q: Crowd Control Squad. And you -- I 14 note that in February of 1985, you were involved in a 15 Criminal Investigation course? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And then in 1989 you took training 18 for the Emergency Response Team at Meaford? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And can you recall how long that 21 training lasted? 22 A: I believe the course was six (6) or 23 eight (8) weeks in length. I'm not -- 24 Q: Six (6) or eight (8) weeks. 25 A: -- sure exact.
811 Q: And was that -- was it in 1989 when 2 the Emergency Response Team or the ERT teams were 3 created? 4 A: Correct, yes. 5 Q: And what did the training as an ERT 6 officer involve? 7 A: Basically it was a containment and 8 crowd management and crowd control training. 9 Q: And was the -- at this point in time 10 in 1989 was there a unit known as a Crowd Management Unit 11 or did it come later? 12 A: I'm not sure exactly. 13 Q: Okay. And were you deployed after 14 1989 as a member of an Emergency Response Team? 15 A: I was, yes. 16 Q: And between 1989 and 1995 do you have 17 any -- can you help us with how many times you were 18 deployed as part of an ERT team? 19 A: I would just have to guess. There 20 was various calls. Probably in the neighbourhood of 21 maybe a dozen calls regarding containment. 22 Q: And when you say for containment, 23 your role was basically to contain? 24 A: Contain hazardous situations where 25 you had barricaded suspects in a house, firearms
821 involved. 2 Q: Okay. And the containment was to 3 contain the site? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And when you were stationed initially 6 in Merlin and then Chatham, what were your duties as a 7 police officer, sir? 8 A: Basically general duties, policing, 9 traffic and criminal investigation. 10 Q: And at some point you were promoted 11 to Senior Constable; can you tell us when that was? 12 A: I believe it was some time around 13 1980. 14 Q: And the -- in the -- when -- during 15 the course of your work, prior to 1995, what experience, 16 if any, did you have with respect to First Nations 17 policing? 18 A: The only experience when I was 19 stationed at Petrolia Detachment -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Our sub-detachment was Sombra, I had 22 the police, the island, the Walpole Island, and on 23 occasion we'd get calls to assist them at calls on the 24 island. 25 That's about the only experience at that
831 point I had with any Indian policing, or First Nation 2 policing. 3 Q: And that was back in 19 -- 4 A: That was 19 -- 5 Q: Early '70's. 6 A: Yeah, 1970, '71. 7 Q: And then after that, before 1995, did 8 you... 9 A: When I was in Chatham -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- we had -- a satellite of Chatham 12 was the Moraviantown Reserve. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And we would back them up in calls, 15 vise versa. I knew several of the First Nation 16 constables that -- that policed the reserve -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- because they would -- they would 19 come to Chatham for supplies and -- and equipment and 20 training, because they trained with us, like in service 21 training -- 22 Q: The -- 23 A: -- so I got to know them -- 24 Q: The officers from Moraviantown would 25 train with you --
841 A: Yeah, they would train with us. And 2 there was, you know, they'd come in the office and -- and 3 coffee with them from time to time, got to know them. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: They were a good bunch of guys. 6 Q: And prior to 1995, did you have any 7 training with respect to First Nations issues? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Now, subsequent to 1995? 10 A: No, all we had was multicultural 11 training, but nothing specifically geared towards First 12 Nation issues or anything along that lines. 13 Q: And the cultural training that you 14 referred to occurred after 1995? 15 A: Yes, it did. 16 Q: And what did that -- what was that -- 17 what did that consist of? 18 A: I believe it was a one (1) day 19 course, just giving us all aspects of how to deal with 20 different cultures. 21 Q: Okay. And prior to 1995, what 22 knowledge, if any, did you have regarding the Ipperwash 23 Army Camp and members of the Kettle and Stony Point First 24 Nation? 25 A: I had no knowledge at all.
851 Q: And as I understand it, you were not 2 involved in 1993 with respect to the -- the Army Camp? 3 A: No, I was not involved. 4 Q: Nor with the helicopter incident? 5 A: No, I was not. 6 Q: And were you aware, back in 1993, of 7 the occupation of the Army Camp by -- part of the Army 8 Camp, by First Nations people from Kettle and Stony 9 Point? 10 A: Yes, I was aware of it, yes. 11 Q: But you had nothing to do with it? 12 A: No, not being involved in it. 13 Q: And I understand your first 14 involvement in -- with respect to Ipperwash was on July 15 29th, 1995; is that correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And at Tab 2 of the book of documents 18 is a copy of your notes. It's Inquiry document 2005569. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That's correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And those were the notes that you
861 made with respect to your involvement at Ipperwash 2 between July 29th and September 1st, 1995? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And can you tell us what your -- back 5 in 1995, the summer of 1995, what your note-taking 6 practice was? 7 A: Just to -- chronological order of the 8 day's activities, basically, time at the start of the day 9 and any noteworthy activity was placed in the notes. 10 Q: And when would you make the notes? 11 A: Sometimes they were made at the time, 12 sometimes later on. Most -- most of them were made at 13 the time of the incident. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Or shortly after. 16 Q: And I would ask that this segment of 17 notes, for the period July 29th, 1995, to September 1, 18 1995, be marked the next exhibit? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1230, Your Honour. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1230: Document Number 2005569. 23 Handwritten notebook entries 24 of Neil Whelan, July 29 - 25 August 02, 1995 and August
871 19-22, 1995, July 29 - August 2 22, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And when you were called out -- do 6 you have any independent recollection of being called out 7 on July 29th, 1995, Mr. Whelan? 8 A: Yeah, I have -- basically we -- we 9 got a call that the -- the Army Camp had been occupied. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: Probably through -- we had -- we had 12 pagers so it probably come through a pager system, and 13 then we got to call our Comm Centre as to see what the 14 page was about and that's probably how it happened. 15 Q: Okay. And what did you do after you 16 received the call? 17 A: We had instructions to head to Forest 18 OPP Detachment. 19 Q: And I take it you did attend in -- at 20 Forest? 21 A: I did. 22 Q: And you received a briefing? 23 A: I did. 24 Q: And what were you told? And firstly 25 do you recall today who gave you the briefing?
881 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: And the -- your ERT team was Number 1 3 District ERT? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the -- how many members back in 6 July of 1995 were there of the Number 1 District ERT 7 team? 8 A: I believe fifteen (15) and two (2) 9 sergeants. 10 Q: And the -- do you recall who the 11 sergeants were with respect to Number 1 ERT? 12 A: It was Sergeant Korosec -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- who was team leader? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: It would be Sergeant Graham who was 17 second. 18 Q: Okay. And can you recall who gave 19 you the briefing at the Forest Detachment? 20 A: No, I cannot. 21 Q: Do you recall what you were told? 22 A: No, I have no memory of actual 23 briefing. I -- I can't recall anything about to tell you 24 the truth. 25 Q: And what were you assigned to do on
891 July 29th, if anything? 2 And if you need to refer to your notes 3 please do so, Mr. Whelan. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I don't believe there was any -- any 8 instructions as to do anything at that time. I believe 9 we just went to the detachment and got some type of 10 briefing and -- and that was about it for the day. 11 Q: And then you returned to this area on 12 July 30th? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And what were you -- as I understand 15 it you were assigned to patrol around the Army Camp area 16 and the Provincial Park on July 30th and August 1st; is 17 that correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And -- and what did that consist of? 20 A: Basically just maintain a police 21 presence in the Park, in the outside area. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: Just a general patrol. 24 Q: Just a general patrol in a -- in a 25 marked cruiser?
901 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And do you recall today what uniform 3 you had on at -- in the weekend on July 29th, 30th, and 4 31st? 5 A: It would be a regulation -- 6 Q: Blue uniform? 7 A: -- uniform, blue uniform. 8 Q: Pardon me? 9 A: A regulation blue uniform, yeah. 10 Q: Blue. And -- 11 A: Daily uniform. 12 Q: -- during this period of time did you 13 go -- you personally go into the Army Camp? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: And as I understand it there were -- 16 the period July 30, July 31, and August 1 you were doing 17 general patrol duties and there were no incidents; is 18 that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And at Tab 3 there's a document; it's 21 Inquiry Document 2003958. 22 A: Yes, I have it. 23 Q: And this is a document created by 24 you? 25 A: That's correct.
911 Q: And this document -- why did you 2 create this document? 3 Let me help you. Was this document 4 created to keep track of what you were doing and provided 5 to -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- your supervisors? 8 A: Yeah, I believe at the time, probably 9 in the interview, we were told to put in interview 10 reports, or put in statements as to what we did during 11 the day during the general patrol. 12 Q: And at -- I would ask that this be 13 marked the next exhibit, Inquiry Document 2003958. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1231, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1231: Document Number 2003958. 17 Handwritten interview report 18 of Neil Whelan, July 29 - 19 August 01, 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And this document covers the period 23 July 29th to August the 1st? 24 A: Yes, it does. 25 Q: And at Tab 4 is an extract of Exhibit
921 P-411 and this is known as the CFB Ipperwash Incident. 2 Prior to preparing for the Inquiry, had you ever seen 3 this document before? 4 A: This particular document? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: No. 7 Q: And simply for the benefit of My 8 Friends, you will find under the appropriate day, the 9 entry in Exhibit P-411 that appears in Exhibit P-1231; 10 for example, July 29th called out to Forest under Mr. 11 Whelan's name. 12 And that information -- if I could ask you 13 to turn please to Tab 6. This is a copy of Exhibit P- 14 413, Inquiry Document 2002890. This is the CFB 15 intelligence report. 16 Prior to preparing for this Inquiry, your 17 appearance, had you ever seen this document before? 18 A: No, I had not. 19 Q: And -- now, the -- after August the 20 1st, I understand that you returned to the Ipperwash area 21 -- actually you were in the Ipperwash area on August the 22 2nd. If I could take you to the third page of your notes 23 at Tab 2. 24 A: Tab 2. 25
931 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And again, there were no incidents, 5 but you were on general patrol? 6 A: Yeah. Just general patrol. 7 Q: And then you returned to this area on 8 August the 19th, 1995, to the Ipperwash area? 9 A: I did, yes. 10 Q: And before I go to that, at Tab 5 11 there's a copy of Inquiry Document 1007935 and it's a 12 callout sheet. And this appears to be a callout sheet 13 with respect to -- or lists a number of individuals and 14 were they the members of your ERT team back in 1995? 15 A: Yes they are. 16 Q: And this is for the period August 7th 17 to August the 11th; you weren't called out during this 18 period? 19 A: No. I was not. 20 Q: The people were called out, as I read 21 this document, were the people whose -- the officers 22 whose badge numbers appear on the list. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And just for identification perhaps 25 we could mark this the next exhibit.
941 THE REGISTRAR: P-1232, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1232: Document Number 1007935. ERT 4 Callout Sheet, August 07, 5 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And when you returned on August 19th, 9 1995, the -- as I understand it, there were no incidents? 10 You were on general patrol again? 11 A: That's correct. By my notes, it says 12 that Jacklin investigated a motor vehicle accident, but 13 that's about it. 14 Q: Thank you. And on the last exhibit 15 that we marked Exhibit Number -- the callout sheet at Tab 16 5, actually we need to redact the telephone numbers -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- on the document 19 that's -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 21 1232. Exhibit 1232. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 1232. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Redact the 24 phone numbers. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The car and the soft
951 ID is -- is fine but the telephone numbers of each 2 individual officer. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And if you would turn with me to Tab 7 7, Mr. Whelan. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And Tab 7 is a report that you filed 12 for August the 19th. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And if one looks at Exhibit 413 -- 15 this information, Commissioner, gets into the Exhibit 16 413. 17 and do you recall what you did with this 18 document after? Did you turn it in at the end of your 19 shift? 20 A: Yes, I would have turned it in at the 21 end of the shift. 22 Q: And is this in your handwriting, sir? 23 A: It is. 24 Q: And this is for August 19th. I'd ask 25 that this be the next exhibit.
961 THE REGISTRAR: P-1233, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1233: Document Number 2000800. 4 Handwritten Emergency 5 Response Team Operational 6 Report - Whelan/Jacklin, 7 August 19, 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And on August the 19th, you were on- 11 duty from eight o'clock until ten o'clock? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And there were no incidents? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And you, as well, on-duty on August 16 the 20th? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And at Tab 8 of your book, and for 19 the benefit of My Friends this is a three (3) page 20 document that in the database was in the -- has been 21 given an individual number for each page, but the pages 22 were put in the wrong order in the database. 23 So the pages are -- Inquiry Document 24 2000820 is page 1. The next page is Inquiry document 25 2000821, and then the next document is 2000822.
971 But on the documents there, it's been 2 numbered 1, 2, 3 and it's the 1, 2, 3's that are out of 3 order. 4 And this is a document you prepared for 5 the -- your attendance on August the 20th? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I understand that there was a -- 8 an incident on -- near Port Franks that you had received 9 a report about? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And on -- I would ask that this 12 document be the next exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1234, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1234: Document Number 2000820, 16 2000821 and 2000822. 17 Handwritten Emergency 18 Response Team Operational 19 Report - Whelan, Parks, 20 August 20, 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: But we need to redact -- there's 24 information in 1234 that needs to be redacted; the name 25 of the individual and the address and the telephone
981 number. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And it's in line 2 -- line 1, line 2, 6 line 3, line 4 and line 5. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And on page 3, the names under 11 Suspect 2 and Suspect 3 should be redacted. These names 12 are redacted in Exhibit P-413. 13 And this was simply a report -- someone 14 reported observing a boat pulling up on the beach and a - 15 - what the person described as a confrontation between 16 the people on the boat and some First Nations 17 individuals. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And do you know -- did -- you didn't 20 witness this incident? 21 A: I did not. 22 Q: And the -- do you know if the 23 incident was on the Army Camp side of the beach or on the 24 -- outside the Army Camp, towards Port Franks? 25 A: The way she described it, it -- it
991 was on the Army Camp beach. 2 Q: On the army Camp Beach. And the 3 description involved coolers and -- and some beer which 4 the boaters got back and then left? 5 A: Yeah, that's correct, that's what she 6 said. 7 Q: That's what she said? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And you didn't go down there, you 10 simply got this report and reported it? 11 A: That's correct. No, I didn't go down 12 there. 13 Q: And then you received a report -- 14 another report as to an incident with respect to a duck 15 in the -- in the -- the Provincial Park and you went down 16 and talked to some people? 17 A: Yeah, I did. 18 Q: And you made no arrests? 19 A: No, I took no enforcement action at 20 that time. 21 Q: Thanks. And those are the names on 22 page 3 that -- did you get that, Mr. Registrar? 23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1001 Q: And one (1) of the individuals that - 2 - you spoke to the individuals? 3 A: I did. I spoke to them. 4 Q: And -- and one (1) was David George - 5 - Abraham? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Then on -- if you turn to Tab 11 you 8 are back again on August the 21st? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you patrol from 11:00 -- 23:00 11 hours to 07:00 hours the morning you were on the midnight 12 shift? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And there were no incidents that you 15 observed? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And you were patrolling the Army Camp 18 area and the Provincial Park? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: That's Inquiry Document 2000804 and 21 I'd like to ask that that be the next exhibit? 22 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. P-1235, Your 23 Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1235: Document Number 2000804.
1011 Handwritten Emergency 2 Response Team Operational 3 Report - Gransden/Whelan, 4 August 21, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And again on August 22nd you were on- 8 duty from 19:00 hours to 04:00 hours and you were 9 patrolling the Park and area around the Army Camp; is 10 that correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And there were no incidents? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: The report says: 15 "All quiet. No incidents." 16 That's Inquiry Document 2000808 and that 17 would be Exhibit P-1236? 18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1236: Document Number 2000808. 21 Handwritten Emergency 22 Response Team Operational 23 Report - Gransden/Whelan, 24 August 22, 1995. 25
1021 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then on -- you returned to the area 3 on August the 31st. And if you turn back to Tab 2 of 4 your notes which are Exhibit P-1230, three (3) pages from 5 -- four (4) pages from the back. 6 A: What was the date again? 7 Q: August 31st. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: It's page 97 on the bottom of your 12 notebook, sir. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I'm missing 97. 17 Q: No, you're having the same problem I 18 did. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Is that it? Okay. 23 Q: I didn't see it either until Mr. 24 Roland pointed it out. 25 Now, can you tell us -- now, just before
1031 we begin, on -- on that page there appears to be 2 Thursday, August 31, a rest day, and then 30 -- August 3 31, ERT is -- I can't read it it says something -- 4 A: "ERT Ipperwash Provincial Park -- 5 Q: I -- 6 A: -- patrol." 7 Q: So I -- I take it that you were at 8 the Provincial Park on August 31st? 9 A: I was. 10 Q: Can you tell us what you did that 11 day? Was it a general patrol again? 12 A: Yeah, it appears to be general 13 patrol. 14 Q: And you were then at the Park on 15 September the 1st? 16 A: I was. 17 Q: And in the -- were you patrolling the 18 Park and the area? 19 A: Yeah, patrolling the -- the Park and 20 the surrounding area. 21 Q: And were there any incidents on 22 September the 1st? 23 A: Yeah. Apparently a vehicle had been 24 -- been stuck on the dunes down on Matheson Drive -- 25 Q: Yes.
1041 A: -- on the -- on the Army Camp side. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And apparently some officers had gone 4 down to investigate and then they had called for 5 assistance. It appears myself and Constable Japp went 6 down to provide assistance. 7 Q: And what assistance did you provide? 8 A: Basically on the way down, we were 9 told to provide security for the officers that were 10 investigating the vehicle that was stuck down there. 11 Q: Yes. And what did you do? 12 A: Well, we pulled into the area and 13 parked our cruiser just back from where the car that was 14 stuck in the sand, and then myself and Constable Japp got 15 out and -- and mainly we were watching the officers' 16 backs, watching the bush and the surrounding area and 17 protecting the scene. 18 Q: Yes. And -- 19 A: There was a great deal of commotion 20 around the car. And at that point a lot of the First 21 Nation people from the Army Camp had started to come down 22 to see what was going on, obviously. There was a lot of 23 people gathering. 24 Q: Then what happened? 25 A: I noticed a car that had slowly
1051 started to back up towards our location; it's 2 approximately forty (40) forty-five (45) feet away. 3 Q: Now, was this on September 1st or 4 September 2nd? There's... 5 A: Still on the 1st. 6 Q: Yes? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: And two (2) First Nations -- there 11 was a First Nations male at the back trunk of the vehicle 12 and there was one at the side of the vehicle. And the 13 one First Nations male opened up the trunk and started to 14 pull out -- and I got a quick glimpse of what I thought 15 was a stock or the butt of a firearm. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Yeah, if I might, I think -- think 20 there may be a problem. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: That was -- you were talking about 25 September the 1st --
1061 A: September the 1st. 2 Q: -- it was -- you start at page 97 and 3 then page 98. September the 1st is 98. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Okay, yes. I got it here. Friday, 8 September 1st. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: "Pickup truck was stuck in the sand, 11 Matheson Ave. Five (5) or six (6) male 12 Native Canadians, unable to obtain 13 plate. Several of the vehicles left 14 the camp. Drove down Army Camp Road." 15 That's the incident you're talking about? 16 Q: Well, this is -- I just want you to 17 read your notes for September the 1st. 18 A: That is the notes of September 1st. 19 Q: And this is a different incident than 20 you were describing -- starting to describe -- 21 A: Yeah, I was describing another 22 incident. 23 Q: And we'll come to that. But were 24 there any other incidents on September the 1st, before 25 you went off -duty?
1071 You were on-duty overnight on September 2 the 1st? 3 A: Yeah, I came on-duty at four o'clock. 4 Three o'clock I'd stopped the car. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: On Camp Road. It was just a routine 7 check for driver's license and ownership and insurance. 8 Q: And then you went off-duty at six 9 o'clock? 10 A: I did. 11 Q: And you were back on-duty on 12 September the 2nd. If you look at Tab 13 of the black 13 book in front of you, there's a set of Mr. Whelan's 14 notes. It's Inquiry Document 2003958 for the period 15 September 2nd to September 22nd, 1995. 16 And I'd ask that those be marked the next 17 exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1237, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1237: Document Number 2003985. 21 Handwritten notebook entries 22 of Neil Whelan, September 02- 23 22, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1081 Q: And on September the 2nd, what did 2 you do? 3 A: September 2nd was general patrol: 4 "Around one o'clock got a report of a 5 disturbance. Constable Grandsen 6 standing by. Surrounded by Indians. 7 Constable Dougan was there down by the 8 boat ramp." 9 We never got to the call before things 10 were cleared up. 11 Q: So you were simply called down -- 12 called about it and -- 13 A: And then told to disregard. 14 Q: And told to disregard it? 15 A: Yeah. They cleared the matter up. 16 Q: And you then were on-duty on general 17 patrol duties on September the 2nd? 18 A: I was. 19 Q: And on September the 3rd, as well, 20 you were on-duty? 21 A: I was. 22 Q: And can you tell us what hours you 23 were on-duty? 24 A: I started at five o'clock in the 25 morning.
1091 Q: And your shift lasted until when? 2 A: Until seven o'clock. 3 Q: The next -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- night. So you were on a fourteen 6 (14) shift then that day, September the 3rd. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what happened on September 3rd? 9 A: I have my notes here: 10 "Ipperwash Provincial Park outside 11 area. Saw Native people running around 12 a fire hydrant at the time. 13 Saw that vehicle, the Wing Warrior car. 14 It was being driven around." 15 Q: That's the entry at 12:33? 16 A: Yeah, that's correct. 17 Q: And there's a reference to Dudley 18 George. 19 A: There is. 20 Q: And can you read us that part of your 21 notes? 22 A: "Dudley gave me the finger salute." 23 Q: And how did you know it was Dudley 24 George? 25 A: Larry Parks knew most of the First
1101 Nations people and he had pointed Dudley out a few times. 2 Q: And why had he pointed Dudley out? 3 A: Just to tell -- I guess just to say 4 that's Dudley George. 5 Q: And had you had any interactions in 6 August with Mr. Dudley George? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And the Winged Warrior car, that car 9 -- why did you call it the Winged Warrior car? Can you 10 describe it for us? 11 A: It had -- it had a big set of things 12 at the back, like wings. 13 Q: At the back -- the fins at the back-- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And we have seen that car before. 16 And did -- at the time on September the 2nd, was there 17 any writing on the car, that you recall? Or September 18 the 3rd? 19 A: I believe there was OPP writing on -- 20 written on the side of it. 21 Q: OPP WHO? 22 A: All I remember is OPP. 23 Q: And then what else happened on -- you 24 simply patrolled the area? 25 A: Yeah. We left the beach area and
1111 left the area down -- it seems to me we went to Port 2 Franks. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: There's some -- some person walking 5 on the beach which was nobody. We never found anybody. 6 Q: Pardon me, I can't hear you, sir. 7 A: We went on a call, it appears, to 8 Port Franks, to the beach area. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: But we never did find anybody. 11 Q: Then you attended at -- you were on- 12 duty in this area on September the 4th? 13 A: I was. 14 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And what did you do, what was your 19 assignment when you went on-duty on September the 4th? 20 A: Again, just general policing of the 21 Park and surrounding area. 22 Q: And what, if anything, happened on 23 September the 4th? 24 A: Well, this is the incident where 25 there had been a vehicle down, stuck on Matheson -- down,
1121 right down at the -- the beach area. 2 Q: And where does that appear in your 3 notes, sir? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: I think it's page 4. 8 A: "Despatched to assist cruiser down at 9 the beach area, Matheson Drive, four 10 (4) of five (5) cruisers, several 11 members standing by with Native 12 people." 13 Q: Do you have any independent 14 recollection of this incident, sir? 15 A: Other than -- probably -- or -- when 16 we were getting despatched down there, we were told that 17 that's what was going on down at the beach. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: And they asked for assistance down 20 there. 21 Q: And -- but do you recall, without 22 looking at your notes, do you have any recollection today 23 of what happened on the afternoon of September the 4th, 24 with this incident? 25 A: Without looking at my notes?
1131 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what you 4 recall? 5 A: I recall heading down there with 6 Constable Japp. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And there was quite a commotion when 9 we got down there. There was officers around a car, 10 obviously dealing with the occupants, right -- right at 11 the beach area. 12 Q: And this was at the north end of 13 Matheson Drive -- 14 A: Yeah. Right adjacent to the 15 Provincial Park. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Okay. Down on the wat -- or at the 18 beach. 19 Q: Was it between the Provincial Park 20 and the Army Camp? 21 A: That's correct, yeah. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Right down at the end of the road 24 there. 25 Q: Yes.
1141 A: And when we got down there, we -- we 2 were told to provide security for the officers when they 3 -- while they were dealing with the occupants of the car. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Myself and Constable Japp. We 6 positioned our cruiser just back from where they were and 7 we watched the -- again, there was a lot of First Nations 8 people coming down from the Army Camp and crowds were 9 starting to build. 10 Even people from the Provincial Park 11 started to gather at the -- the edge there. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Watching the -- the activity, what 14 was going on, involving a car. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: That -- this is the time when I 19 observed the vehicle. What caught my attention was the 20 vehicle was backing up to our position very slowly. 21 Q: Yes. 22 Q: Then there was two (2) First Nations, 23 they were males, one was alongside the trunk, the other 24 was right at the back of the trunk. He opened up the 25 trunk and he reached in and he started to bring out
1151 something. And that's when I first got a glimpse of, 2 whether it was a butt or the stock of what I believed to 3 be a firearm. 4 At the same point he was bringing it out, 5 he turned around and looked at me, 'cause I was staring 6 right at him. 7 And we sort of stared at each other for, 8 well, it seemed like a long time, but it was probably 9 only seconds. Then he quickly dropped it into the trunk 10 and took his hands out of the trunk. 11 The other First Nations person that was 12 standing alongside the trunk motioned with his hands in a 13 downward motion. I took it from that was to leave it in 14 the trunk. 15 And then basically I just stared at him. 16 I stared at that car for the remainder of the time that 17 the other officers were dealing with the -- the vehicle 18 that was parked there. 19 Q: And the -- can you tell us what -- 20 describe the car for us please? 21 A: It had rebel plates on the -- on the 22 back of it. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And in my notes I have, "a blue car 25 with rebel plates."
1161 Q: Okay. And what did you -- what did 2 you do next? 3 A: Well, we -- we sort of just stared at 4 each other, the -- the Native male and myself. I guess 5 if you believe in telepathy I was telling him to leave it 6 in the trunk. 7 Q: But after the -- the trunk was 8 closed, how long did you remain down at the beach? 9 A: It would only be a guess. Let me see 10 here. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Maybe fifteen (15) or twenty (20) 15 minutes. 16 Q: And the -- and did you report this 17 incident, with respect to the firearm, to anyone? 18 A: I made these notes, you know, quite a 19 short period of time after. I also notified Sergeant 20 Korosec. 21 Q: And that's at page 5 of your notes; 22 it's at 16:45? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And then what did you do next? 25 A: Basically we -- we returned back up
1171 to the Provincial Park. 2 Q: And do you recall any of the 3 discussion between the officers and the individuals, 4 First Nations individuals at the car? 5 A: No, I was -- there was a lot of 6 yelling and screaming going on, but I couldn't make out 7 any distinct conversations going on. My attention was 8 mainly focussed on the car -- 9 Q: And -- 10 A: -- the trunk of that vehicle. 11 Q: -- the car that you described with 12 the rebel plates, when you say, "rebel plates," what do 13 you mean by that? 14 A: You know the old like insignia from 15 the -- from the war, like the rebel, the rebel plate, 16 rebel flag like? 17 Q: The -- the American Civil War? 18 A: Yeah, that's true, yeah. 19 Q: And you're referring to the 20 Confederate flag? 21 A: That's it. 22 Q: And how far were you away from where 23 the officers and the First Nations individuals were 24 gathered? 25 A: I'd only estimate maybe fifty (50)
1181 feet. 2 Q: Then... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Did you -- at the time did you know 7 Roderick George? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Then after this incident you returned 10 to patrolling the Park, and can you tell us what you 11 recall happened after the incident? 12 A: "19:00 hours, observed four (4) males 13 walking through the Park to the 14 refreshment building. They grabbed a 15 piece of plywood and yanked it off the 16 building." 17 I believe I yelled at them to leave the -- 18 leave the stuff there. 19 "They stopped, made some -- some 20 gestures or statements." 21 Q: Do you recall what the statements 22 were? 23 A: No, I don't remember. 24 Q: And you're reading now from your 25 notes at page 6?
1191 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And the -- that's part of Exhibit P- 3 1237. I'd ask you to turn for a moment to Tab 14 of the 4 book in front of you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: This is Inquiry Document 2003985, and 9 appears to be a statement prepared by you. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks 12 like 58, not 85, Mr. Millar. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me. Thank you 14 very much, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: 2003958. And there are two (2) pages 19 of typed -- typed statement and then some handwritten 20 notes. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And those are your handwritten notes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And do you recall today when you -- 25 when you made this statement?
1201 A: Not exactly. They probably would 2 have been made shortly after the incident. 3 Q: I would ask that this be marked the 4 next exhibit. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1238, Your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1238: Document Number 2003958. 9 Typed and handwritten 10 statement of Neil Whelan 11 (undated). 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And if you could turn -- look at the 15 first page of this document, Mr. Whelan. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: The -- your notes indicated that, and 20 if you look in the second paragraph, that the car that 21 you observed was blue. In this statement, Exhibit P- 22 1238, you refer to it as black. 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And... 25 A: Colour could have been close. I'm
1211 more inclined to go by my notes, but that's the only 2 explanation I have for that. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Black, blue. 5 Q: And then at -- there's a note at 6 17:30 hours: 7 "A blue Chevelle with two (2) Natives 8 came through the closed gate at the 9 east end of the Park. They broke the 10 lock, allowing several cars with 11 Natives to enter the Park, all yelling 12 and shouting." 13 Do you see that? 14 A: I do. 15 Q: And that doesn't appear in your 16 notes. 17 A: No. Again, that's -- that's the -- 18 the afternoon where they -- they started to occupy the 19 Park and there was cars coming in from every direction 20 that day. 21 I remember some of the incidents 22 specifically, but that's the only explanation I got for 23 that. 24 Q: But the -- at -- when you did up the 25 statement, Exhibit P-1238, at 17:30 hours --
1221 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- it's not in your notes, but do you 3 today have a recollection of this happening at 5:30? 4 A: I have a reco -- from my memory, I -- 5 I know of two (2) incidents where they came through the 6 gates. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Okay, one was with Stan Korosec and 9 then another one, and this could be the other one. 10 Q: The one that's in this statement at 11 20:30? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Or 17:30? 14 A: 17:30. 15 Q: And I'm going to put on the screen, 16 and there's a copy in front of you, this is a copy of 17 Exhibit P-40. 18 And on -- just in front, on the left hand 19 side at the desk, at the front of the desk, Mr. Whelan. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And you'll see that there's a -- 24 there's a laser pointer on the desk right beside you, 25 sir.
1231 A: Where would that be? 2 Q: It'll be in this -- perhaps I'll -- 3 we'll do it this way. It's right -- yeah. The north is 4 at the top of Exhibit P-40. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And this is a -- a drawing of -- a 7 diagram of the Military Base and Ipperwash Provincial 8 Park. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And -- excuse me for a minute. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Commissioner, before we go on, what I 15 would like to distribute this morning, we were advised by 16 Counsel for Mr. Whelan that there were some description - 17 - some telephone conversations on September the 5th that 18 we had not -- not telephone conversations, radio 19 communications, that we had not included in our list of 20 documents. 21 And so for the past two (2) hours Mr. 22 Woodworth and Ms. Beach have been putting together 23 transcripts of these calls, and Ms. Beach is now going to 24 distribute them. 25
1241 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, I'm sorry. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's all 5 right. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Okay. Can you show us, north is at 9 the top of this map, where the two (2) incidents 10 involving people coming through the gate occurred? 11 A: Yeah. From the best of my memory, 12 right along in this area here. 13 Q: And you're pointing to Matheson Drive 14 as it -- on the east side of the Provincial Park, as it 15 runs up towards the lake? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And there was a gate there? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that -- is that the incident you 20 referred to at 17:30 hours? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And then the second incident, the one 23 with Stan Korosec? 24 A: It was down -- farther down this way, 25 as far as I can remember.
1251 Q: Was it near the maintenance shed? 2 A: Yeah. I believe the maintenance shed 3 was down in this area, wasn't it? 4 A: The -- the evidence is that the 5 maintenance area -- shed is in the area that's -- there's 6 a road, what appears to be a road that runs north and 7 south from the edge of the -- from Matheson Drive up 8 towards the pumphouse. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And the -- the maintenance building 11 is in the area -- 12 A: Right in here. 13 Q: -- in here. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- just on that road to the -- on the 16 south -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- side of the -- south side of the 19 Park? 20 A: Yeah, that's my memory. That's -- 21 that's the area where it was right there. 22 Q: The second -- 23 A: There's a gate -- there's a gate in 24 there. I remember a gate along there. 25 Q: Yes?
1261 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And so what happened in the gate near 3 the -- the maintenance building? 4 A: Well, basically they -- they cut -- 5 cut the lock and drove in. 6 Q: And were you there with anyone? 7 A: Just with Stan. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Sergeant Korosec. 10 Q: -- what if anything did you or 11 Sergeant Korosec say? 12 A: No, we didn't offer any resistance or 13 anything. 14 Q: And the... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: So the -- can you re -- at this point 19 in time, at around when the incident took place with 20 respect to the gate by the maintenance building, can you 21 tell me what time that was? 22 A: Some time around eight o'clock. 23 Q: And your notes don't appear to -- 24 could you refer to your notes at 19:30? 25 A: 19:30? Yes.
1271 Q: Yes. And could you tell us what it 2 says there? 3 A: That's -- that was the incident with 4 the plywood. 5 Q: Okay. Then if you go to Tab 14, 6 Exhibit P-1238, page 2, it's page 1800 at the top. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: There's an entry: 9 "19:30 hours, several Natives, one (1) 10 using a tire iron, attempted to remove 11 a lock on a gate into the Park. I 12 confronted the Natives who then 13 stopped. Sergeant Korosec talked to 14 several Natives, attempted to convince 15 them to leave the lock alone." 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: "Then several other Natives on the 18 other side of the fence had a pair of 19 bolt cutters and cut the lock. Natives 20 stormed into the Park. We then pulled 21 back to just in front of the Park 22 gate." 23 Now that doesn't appear in your notes 24 but... 25 A: No. I have reco -- I have memory of
1281 that though, of -- 2 Q: And -- 3 A: -- that happening. 4 Q: And -- and where was that, was that 5 at the maintenance area? 6 A: I believe that was at the -- I 7 believe that was down at the other end; down at this end. 8 Q: So that both of the incidents, the 9 one at 5:30 where the lock was broken, and at 7:30 it 10 took place on the east end? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And then what did you do after 13 this incident? It says that you went to the main gate. 14 A: Basically we -- we pulled back to the 15 main gate area, like -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- all the officers. 18 Q: Then there's an entry -- how many 19 officers were there at this point in time? 20 A: I'll just given an estimate, maybe 21 approximately fifteen (15). 22 Q: Yes. And there's an entry in your 23 book at -- at eight o'clock too? 20:00 hours. It's 24 page -- 25 A: I have it here, yeah.
1291 Q: -- 6? 2 A: Yeah. That was -- Sergeant Korosec 3 sent us over to the maintenance building, myself and 4 Constable Jacklin and Myers. But I believe the gate 5 there had been breached already. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And the First Nations people were 8 coming in. So it -- it was getting quite stressful at 9 that point and we returned to the main area where 10 everybody else was. 11 Q: And there's -- and what did you do 12 when you were at the main gate? 13 A: Basically we were all -- we had the 14 cruisers all parked around the entrance and everybody was 15 sort of in a little group. 16 Q: And is that by the gatehouse or kiosk 17 at the entrance? 18 A: We're -- it would be just inside the 19 main gate, like in -- on the pavement portion probably, 20 where you -- where you leave the -- 21 Q: And -- and do -- do you recall 22 whether there was a -- a gatehouse where tolls were 23 collected for people going into the Park? 24 A: Yes, I recall that. It would 25 probably be right in front of that, it would be --
1301 Q: Right. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And that was just inside the main 4 gate off Army Camp Road? 5 A: Yeah, that's correct. 6 Q: And so what did you do when you went 7 back to this area? 8 A: Well basically Stan said that we were 9 to stay in the Park, keep continuity of the Park. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: But offer no resistence. So we -- we 12 just sort of stayed around in our little group and the -- 13 the First Nations people that had come into the Park, 14 they sort of were off to our left and they had started a 15 -- a little fire. And -- 16 Q: And when you say off to your left 17 they started a fire. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Was that -- 20 A: Just like a campfire -- 21 Q: Yes, but -- 22 A: -- you know. 23 Q: -- was that near the gatehouse or by 24 the camp store? 25 A: It would be by -- just in front of
1311 the camp store -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- and just stopped towards where we 4 were. And for a period of time it was quite quiet and 5 peaceful really. We were talking to each other. It 6 didn't seem that anything was going to happen at that 7 point. 8 Q: And then what happened. 9 A: Well later on it was starting to get 10 dark, and that was around 21:27 hours. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And a First Nations person by the 13 name of Judas George, I knew Judas to see him. Again, he 14 was pointed out by Larry Parks who knew most of the First 15 Nations people at the time. 16 Q: But you didn't know him as Roderick 17 George? 18 A: No. That's the only name I knew him 19 of. That's the name people -- that's the name I knew him 20 of. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: He just came out of nowhere. He had 23 a piece of wood, maybe four (4) or five (5) feet long, 24 and smashed out the rear of a -- of a cruiser. 25 Q: And what, if anything, did you recall
1321 Mr. Judas George saying? 2 A: I don't actually recall the exact 3 words, but he wanted us out of the Park. 4 Q: And do you recall anything else 5 happening at or about that time? 6 A: Well by then it was getting dark and 7 the First Nations people started walking in among us; 8 like you'd be standing there and the next thing you know 9 there would be a First Nation person standing right 10 beside you. 11 So it -- it was getting a little tense. 12 It's getting dark. And then they started to throw these 13 fluorescent flares in among us. 14 I seen one (1) flare myself. 15 Q: You saw one (1) flare? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And what was -- how would -- 18 A: They were fluorescent type, the 19 phosphorous, probably from the army camp. And if they 20 land on you they could burn your clothing or your skin. 21 Q: But -- but how do you know it was 22 phosphorous, and not a fire cracker? 23 A: When it landed I could see it, and it 24 was burning. 25 Q: Yes.
1331 A: For a long period of time. 2 Q: Was it a long flare or short -- small 3 flare. Can you describe it? 4 A: Like a -- like a globe flare. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Okay. And then when it hit, it 7 burned for a long period of time, made a cracking noise. 8 Q: So you saw one (1) of those being -- 9 A: I did. 10 Q: -- thrown? And did you see it hit 11 anyone? 12 A: No, it did not hit anyone. 13 Q: And the flare that -- the fluorescent 14 flare, it's -- there's a -- there's a note at page 7 of 15 your notes at 21:00 hours about a phosphorous flare. 16 A: 7? 17 Q: Yes. It's at Tab 13, Exhibit P-1237. 18 A: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: What's your notes say there? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1341 Q: Perhaps you could just read your 2 note, 21:00 down to 21 -- 3 A: "21:00, ERT seized the main gate 4 area. 5 Native people starting threw -- 6 flares." 7 Q: There's a word in front of the 8 flares. 9 A: Can't even read my own writing. 10 Throwing something. 11 Q: Yeah, it might assist you if you 12 looked at your original note. You don't have to use the 13 copy -- 14 A: These are my original notes. 15 Q: No, no, but the actual notebook. 16 A: Okay, I'll look in here and see. 17 Q: I know their copies of your original 18 note, but... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: "ERT seize main gate area. Native 23 people started throwing phosphorous 24 flares into our group." 25 Q: Yes...?
1351 A: "21:27, Native Judas George, 2 four/five (4/5) foot piece of wood, 3 smashed through a cruiser, a window of 4 cruiser 1563. Advised us to depart the 5 Park." 6 Q: Yes...? 7 A: "Sergeant Korosec returned to the 8 main Provincial Park area, and then we 9 left the Park." 10 Q: And what time do you have noted that 11 you left the Park? 12 A: 21:20 -- or 21:45. 13 Q: And when you -- what's the reference, 14 Sergeant Korosec returned to the main park area? 15 Do you have any recollection today what 16 that's referring to? 17 A: The only thing I remember is Sergeant 18 Korosec was on his cell phone talking to somebody. 19 Q: I see, and then he came back to where 20 you -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- the group was? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And now, just -- if you -- at Tab 14, 25 the statement of -- at P-1238, the -- that statement
1361 doesn't refer to the flare, or you saw only one (1) -- 2 only one (1) flare, but the flare that you saw. 3 A: Yeah. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I have no explanation for that other 8 than my notes were made right after that. 9 Q: And the statement -- 10 A: And this is typed by somebody and I - 11 - it wasn't typed by me. 12 Q: But there's some handwritten notes 13 behind it, and in the handwritten notes at P-1238 it's 14 not in there either. I'm just... 15 A: Yeah. I -- I don't know. All I say 16 is I put it in my notes -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- at the time. 19 Q: And then what did Mr. -- Sergeant 20 Korosec say, if anything, that you can recall today, when 21 you -- when he ordered you out of the Park? 22 A: He just told us to get everything 23 together and -- and vacate the Park. 24 Q: And when you first went into the Park 25 were there campers still in the Park?
1371 A: Yes, there was, yes. 2 Q: And -- and when the First Nations 3 people started to come into the Park at 5:30, according 4 to your notes, were there campers still in the Park? 5 A: Yeah. I -- from my memory, yeah, 6 there was a few. We -- we were trying to get them out as 7 quickly as possible. 8 Q: And the Park closed -- were you aware 9 that the Park normally closed on Labour Day. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- so that did you assist in 12 asking people to leave the Park? 13 A: Yes, there was a few stragglers and 14 they were asked to move, get out right away. 15 Q: Okay. And what did you do after you 16 left the Park? 17 A: We went back to Forest Detachment for 18 a debriefing. 19 Q: And the -- can you recall today how 20 many officers were present at -- at the main gate area 21 when the incident with Judas George took place? 22 A: I would say approximately fifteen 23 (15). 24 Q: Okay. And what did -- you returned 25 to Forest for the briefing and what, if anything, did you
1381 do for the balance of your shift? 2 A: It looks like there was no other 3 activity. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: It looks like from my notes there was 6 no other activity. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Came out of Forest at 10:30 and then 11 it seems to me I went to East Parkway Command Post at 10 12 -- at 12:30. 13 Q: Could you repeat that again, sir? 14 A: It looks by my notes at 12:30 I went 15 10-7 to East Parkway Command Post. 16 Q: Yes? And that was at the MNR parking 17 lot on East Parkway Drive? 18 A: Yeah, that's correct. 19 Q: And what did you do there? 20 A: It just says here I got 08:40, so I 21 take it I was there all night, Command Post briefing, 22 Number 3 District ERT Unit. And then at 8:45: 23 "10-8 to Forest Detachment" 24 Q: Yes, and you went off-duty. What 25 happened at Forest Detachment?
1391 A: It just says, "debriefing." 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall anything 3 about the debriefing? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: Do you recall when you attended at -- 6 do you recall what happened when you went to the Command 7 Post at the -- the Tactical Operations Centre, I think 8 it's been called, at the MNR parking lot? 9 A: No, I don't recall anything. 10 Q: And you went off-duty at ten o'clock? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Then you came back on-duty on 13 September the 5th? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And those notes appear -- your notes 16 of that appear as part of Exhibit P-1237, Tab 13, 17 starting at -- it's the eighth page in, and on your notes 18 it's page 8. And can you tell us what you were assigned 19 to do on the evening of September the 5th? 20 A: Page 8? I believe we were down on 21 Checkpoint 'B', which would be on the East Parkway Road. 22 Q: And on September the 5th what uniform 23 did you have? 24 A: Just general police uniform. 25 Q: Pardon me?
1401 A: General police uniform. 2 Q: Okay. And I'm going to show you... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And if I could take you to your 7 notes, Exhibit -- for September 1st, as I look at the 8 notes it appears that -- could you read just the first 9 down to 18:30 on your notes for September the 5th? 10 A: "Forest Detachment ERT briefing. 11 19:00 hours Checkpoint 'A' and 'B'. 12 20:04 dispatched to patrol Army Camp, 13 East Parkway Road." 14 Q: Okay. So that the note indicates 15 that at 18:30 -- you and I are reading different parts, 16 but if you start at September the 5th, 1995 -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- on-duty 19:00 hours; is that 19 correct? 20 A: Tuesday, September the 5th? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yeah. On duty, yes that's correct. 23 Q: "ERT, Ipperwash Provincial Park. 24 Weather clear." 25 Then I can't read the next word.
1411 A: "Checkpoint 'A'." 2 Q: Then it says: 3 "Now weather clear." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: No, I don't see that. 6 Q: Its' the -- 7 A: Oh yeah. Weather clear, okay: 8 "Roads bare and dry." 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: "Assignment ERT Checkpoint 'A'." 11 Q: Yes. Then at 18:30 you were at -- 12 A: Forest Detachment. 13 Q: -- ERT briefing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So that you would have your briefing 16 before your actual shift started? 17 A: I guess so. 18 Q: And then it says, can you read the 19 next line? 20 A: 19:00? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: "Checkpoint 'A' and 'B'. 23 Q: Yes. And then at 7:00 -- at 19:00 24 hours or seven o'clock, do you recall today what you were 25 to do? Go to Checkpoint 'A' and 'B'?
1421 A: Just -- probably just basic patrol. 2 Q: Between Checkpoint 'A' and 'B'? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And this is a copy of Exhibit P-1228 5 which is the checkpoint system for September 5th and 6th. 6 And you will see that Checkpoint 'A' -- do you recall 7 where Checkpoint 'A' was on September the 5th? 8 A: I believe it to be up -- up right by 9 the parking lot area. 10 Q: And was it -- and by the parking lot 11 area you're referring to the sandy parking lot that runs 12 north from the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 13 Parkway? 14 A: Yeah, that's correct. 15 Q: And where was it located? To the 16 west or -- 17 A: It would be located a little more to 18 the west of the -- of the intersection there. 19 Q: And -- and when looking at this 20 drawing P-1228 where the 'A' is, the 'A' appears to be 21 right at the intersection. And it was a little bit 22 farther west of the intersection? 23 A: Yeah, that's correct. 24 Q: And Checkpoint 'B' was where? That 25 appears to be --
1431 A: It was down farther past the TOC. 2 I'm not sure how far down it went. 3 Q: And unfortunately on this P-1228, the 4 East Parkway Drive on this map is called West Parkway 5 Drive, and West Parkway Drive is called East Parkway 6 Drive, so that for purposes of everyone when you look at 7 it. 8 But it was -- Checkpoint 'B' was located 9 at -- near the intersection of East Parkway Drive and 10 Ipperwash Road. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And so did you man the checkpoint or 13 simply patrol that area in your cruiser? 14 A: Well, to the best of my memory, it 15 was just basically a patrol. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: It wasn't like a stationary thing. 18 Q: And then there's a note, "22:04". 19 A: Yeah. Dispatched to patrol Army Camp 20 Road area? 21 Q: Yes, can you read that note for us? 22 A: "Despatched to patrol Army Camp Road 23 area." 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: "Patrol regarding ATV's running
1441 across roadway." 2 Q: Could you just repeat that again. I 3 didn't hear that. After East Parkway Road. 4 A: ATV's. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: "Running on the roadway." 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: "Several natives standing on or near 9 the roadway." 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: "22:15, several natives carrying 12 picnic tables onto the roadway at the 13 Army Camp Road and East Parkway 14 intersection." 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: "Started to build barricades across 17 the roadway." 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: "Two (2) natives threw a table onto 20 the front of the cruiser, damaged, a 21 dent on the side -- right side and the 22 hood area." 23 Q: Then your notes go on. 24 A: Well, from there -- like, at that 25 point, we had called for backup.
1451 Q: Okay. So tell us -- tell us what you 2 can recall of this incident today, Mr. Whelan. 3 A: Well, we -- we'd seen this activity 4 down there and the picnic tables on the roadway, and it 5 appeared to be building, like, barricades across and on 6 to the -- the sandy portion area -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: On -- in the parking lot. So we -- 9 we'd called for assistance to come down and help us 10 remove the picnic tables. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Other officers had arrived and then 13 we all came -- pulled up in front of the barricades, the 14 picnic tables were barricaded; stopped and got out of our 15 cruisers and walked up and started to pull the tables 16 apart. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: At that point, we started to get 19 pelted by rocks, like baseball size rocks, coming in 20 about head level. 21 We wanted to get -- we would take a few 22 tables off and they would throw a few more tables on to 23 the other side, so it -- it didn't seem we're get -- 24 we're getting anywhere very quickly. 25 A couple of tables came down off a pile
1461 onto my cruiser. I decided that we should get around to 2 the other side, so we could take the tables off the other 3 side. 4 My cruiser had push bars on the front. 5 I've had a lot of experience in pushing vehicles off the 6 highways with push bars. 7 And the main thing is, I edged up to these 8 -- this pile of table very, very slowly until the push 9 bars were right up against the solid part of the 10 barricade. 11 And at that point, I pushed very slowly 12 until we moved the tables around so we could get in 13 behind the tables. 14 Q: And when you say you turned the 15 tables around, were you -- it's -- you turned the tables 16 to what direction? 17 A: Well we sort of -- I just pushed them 18 to one (1) side, so there was an opening, so we could get 19 through. 20 Q: And when you arrived at the sandy 21 parking lot, were you -- you were with Constable -- 22 A: Japp. 23 Q: -- Japp that night? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And were you the first officers to
1471 arrive? 2 A: We were the first officers to arrive 3 at that point, yeah, before we called for assistance. We 4 didn't go over to the actual barricades until other 5 officers had arrived to assist us. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: At that point when we were still 8 there, rocks had already started to come in on our -- our 9 -- you know, at our location. 10 Q: What do you mean? When you first 11 arrived? 12 A: When we first got down there to 13 investigate what was going on, the rocks started to come 14 in at that point. 15 Q: And that was before you called for 16 assistance? 17 A: That's before we called for 18 assistance. 19 Q: And how many officers were at 20 Checkpoint 'A', or were there any officers at 21 Checkpoint -- 22 A: I -- I don't recall. 23 Q: And how -- did you observe any people 24 in the sandy parking lot? 25 A: There were First Nations people
1481 behind the barricades on the other side, between there 2 and the fence. 3 Q: And the -- and how many individuals 4 did you observe in the sandy parking lot? 5 A: I can't give an estimate I -- I can't 6 recall the exact number. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It would just be an estimate. 9 Q: And... 10 A: Probably in the area of twenty (20) - 11 - twenty-five (25). 12 Q: But that's simply an estimate? 13 A: Yes, simply an estimate. 14 Q: And how many officers responded to 15 the call for assistance? 16 A: To the best of my memory there was 17 approximately four (4) to five (5) cruisers, maybe two 18 (2) in a cruiser. 19 Q: Yes? And so that would be eight (8) 20 to ten (10) plus yourself? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And the -- when you arrived at the 23 intersection -- perhaps -- behind you there's a -- a copy 24 of Exhibit P-23 which is a drawing that was done you'll 25 recall, Commissioner, by Mr. Stan Thompson on the 17th or
1491 18th and 19th of September 1995. 2 And do you recognize that intersection, 3 Mr. Whelan? 4 A: I do. 5 Q: Now, what you'll need to do is pick 6 up -- there's a hand-held mic and you'll see on the 7 drawing, Mr. Whelan, a protrusion from the -- from the 8 edge of the -- of the drawing at the point on the 9 southeast side in this area, that wasn't -- the evidence 10 is that that wasn't there on the evening of September the 11 5th. 12 Could you draw on the -- mark on the 13 drawing where you saw the picnic tables when you first 14 arrived at the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 15 Parkway? 16 A: They were in this area here. 17 Q: Could you take the black -- there's a 18 black pen, sir, and could you take the black pen and mark 19 where they are? You could just put the mic down for a 20 moment and... 21 A: In this area here. 22 Q: And could you mark how many -- if you 23 could pick up the mic again, Mr. Whelan, and could you 24 mark beside that -- that mark that you made, Number 1, -- 25 and how many picnic tables were in that area?
1501 A: I can't remember the exact amount. 2 Q: You'll have to speak into the mic, 3 sir, we need to capture -- 4 A: I can't remember the exact amount. 5 There -- there were several tables there. 6 Q: And so -- now this line here does not 7 appear to be blocking the entrance to the sandy parking 8 lot, it appears to be just -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- at the edge. 11 A: They started there and then they went 12 along here and up in this area here. They were sort of 13 in a line. 14 Q: There was a line that went north into 15 the sandy parking lot? 16 A: Into the -- yeah, into the parking 17 lot. 18 Q: And when you say, "there was a line," 19 were they single... 20 A: Sort of groups, stacks of groups. 21 Q: Can you speak into the mic? 22 A: Stacks of groups of -- of the picnic 23 tables piled up like. 24 Q: Yes, and...? 25 A: And there would be barricades.
1511 Q: And would you mark Number "2" beside 2 that, sir? 3 And were there any other picnic tables 4 that you observed in the sandy parking lot? 5 A: No, that's all. 6 Q: And where were the First Nations 7 individuals that you observed when you first arrived? 8 A: Back in that area there -- 9 Q: And -- 10 A: -- behind the picnic tables. 11 Q: -- and could you mark a "3" on that 12 area? Now, I know this is difficult to get this to scale 13 but -- because this is larger than a smaller drawing but 14 do you -- were you familiar with the turnstile into the 15 Park off the sandy parking lot? 16 A: No, not really, no. 17 Q: Not really? 18 A: And at Number 3 can you tell me again 19 how many people you observed there when you first 20 arrived? 21 A: Again just an estimate, sometime 22 between twenty (20) and thirty (30). 23 Q: And now the -- when you took your 24 cruiser and pushed the barricade as you described it, the 25 pile of picnic tables, how high was the -- can you tell
1521 us today, recall how high the barricade was? 2 A: Tables were stacked up probably, 3 three (3), four (4) high. 4 Q: And the -- and how many picnic tables 5 -- how long was -- do you recall today how many -- how 6 long the barricade was, how many picnic tables at the 7 area you've marked "1"? 8 A: You mean the whole area? 9 Q: No, no, at the initial area. 10 A: Well, down here there was only a few 11 tables. 12 Q: When you say "down here"? 13 A: Down by the roadway. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: The majority of the tables were up in 16 this area here. 17 Q: In the area you've marked Number 2? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And when you took your cruiser and 20 pushed the picnic tables, could you point out on the 21 drawing where that -- where that was? 22 A: Somewhere in this area here. 23 Q: And could you mark a number "4" 24 beside that? 25 And so you've marked with an "X" where
1531 your cruiser was when you started to push the picnic 2 tables, and you've marked a number "4" -- could you make 3 that number "4" a little clearer, Mr. Whelan, because 4 it's going to be -- when it's reduced, it's not going to 5 be legible. 6 And so you were pushing the line of picnic 7 tables towards the southeast, approximately? 8 A: Yeah, I turned the tables to the 9 left. 10 Q: To the left, so -- 11 A: The pile went to the left, maybe five 12 (5) or seven (7) feet. 13 Q: Okay. And could you draw a line with 14 an arrow at the front, the line that you pushed the -- 15 and could you put a number "5" beside that? 16 And you pushed them, I -- I didn't catch 17 how many -- five (5) to seven (7) -- 18 A: Somewhere in five (5) to seven (7) 19 feet. 20 Q: And then what happened? 21 A: Then -- Officers got in behind the -- 22 the line of tables. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And started to pull tables back. 25 Also they started to push the First Nations back towards
1541 the -- the fence area. 2 A lot of them had already gone back 3 towards the fence and they'd gone back into the Park. 4 Q: And so when did -- okay, when -- when 5 did you observe people going back into the Park? 6 A: When I was back here. 7 Q: When -- 8 A: With my cruiser. 9 Q: When you were at -- at the area 10 Number 4 with your cruiser, you observed people going 11 back into the Park? 12 A: Yeah, I did, yes. 13 Q: And when the officers -- when you -- 14 when the officers came -- I take it, did you get out of 15 your car when you -- after you pushed the tables through 16 the -- to the area made of -- through the barricade? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And when you say that the officers 19 pushed the occupiers back into the Park, what do you mean 20 by that? 21 A: Well, they were just sort of walking 22 back towards the First Nations people and they were sort 23 of walking back or running back to -- into the Park. 24 Q: So that the officers were walking 25 towards the First Nations people and -- in the sandy
1551 parking lot and the First Nations --some of the 2 individuals -- did all of them go back into the Park? 3 A: Yeah, most of them did go back into 4 the Park. 5 Q: And was there any physical 6 confrontation between the officers in the sandy parking 7 lot and the occupiers? 8 A: I never seen any. 9 Q: Were you involved in one (1)? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And what uniformed -- I think you 12 told me -- 13 A: We just had our regular uniform on, 14 with -- I believe we had ball caps on. 15 Q: Regular blue uniforms? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And then what was happening -- then, 18 what happened? 19 A: Well, the rocks started to come in 20 again. The rocks never stopped, really. It was an 21 ongoing -- you just had to keep an eye on yourself, 22 because the rocks were coming in pretty hot and heavy. 23 One (1) took the windshield out of my 24 cruiser that was parked here and several went whipping by 25 my head at close range.
1561 Q: And so how long did -- what happened, 2 the rocks were -- people were throwing rocks. They'd 3 throwed --I thought -- I think you told us they were 4 throwing rocks at the beginning and then did they stop 5 throwing rocks at some point and then start again? 6 A: Not really. It -- it kept up. 7 Q: And how long did you remain? 8 A: We weren't there that long after 9 that. Again, things were getting to the point where we 10 thought we'd better get out of there. 11 So the officers had come back and got in 12 their cruisers and we -- we took off. 13 Q: And when you arrived and when you 14 took your car to push the -- the picnic tables, was 15 anyone sitting on the picnic tables? 16 A: No. There was nobody sitting on 17 these picnic tables. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: They were stacked up four (4) or five 20 (5) high and there was nobody on them. 21 Q: And was there a -- did you observe a 22 fire in the parking lot? 23 A: I don't remember a fire. 24 Q: And did -- after the -- when the 25 police officers got out of their car and went on the --
1571 the east side of the line of tables and started to take 2 down the, what you described as a barricade, and walked 3 towards the First Nations people, did the police officers 4 go up to the fence line? 5 A: They did. 6 Q: And did you go up to the fence line? 7 A: No, I did not. I stayed back with my 8 cruiser. 9 Q: And did you hear any conversation 10 between the police officers at the fence line and the 11 occupiers on the inside of the Park? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: Did you hear anyone say to the 14 occupiers, welcome to Canada? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: Did you hear anyone say to one (1) of 17 the occupiers, Dudley you'll be first? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: Did you observe anyone using pepper 20 spray during this incident? 21 A: I observed some officers with pepper 22 spray out. I never observed anybody actually spraying 23 anybody. 24 Q: So was -- do you recall Officer 25 Gransden being there?
1581 A: I did, yes. 2 Q: And did you observe Officer Gransden 3 using his pepper spray? 4 A: I didn't actually see it, no. 5 Q: Do you know -- did -- were you told 6 that he had? Did you learn that afterwards or? 7 A: I -- I don't recall. 8 Q: And -- excuse me for a moment. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now you could sit down please, Mr. 13 Whelan. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 15 be a good point to stop of have you got a point that you 16 want to flip through? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, that would be 18 good. But before we stop I would like to ask that the 19 diagram that has been marked by Mr. Whelan, be marked as 20 the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1239, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1239: Stan Thompson Drawing, 24 September 20th, 1995, marked 25 by Witness Mr. Neil Whelan,
1591 March 29, 2006. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So is -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's fine. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is it a 6 good time? Then we'll adjourn for lunch now. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 10 adjourned until 1:10 p.m. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 12:07 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 1:09 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed, please be seated. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 18 Commissioner. Before we begin I just wanted to explain 19 to My Friends what I distributed -- had distributed at 20 lunch. 21 These are the three (3) checkpoint maps 22 that are in -- that I referred to yesterday that are in - 23 - they're in black and white. The top one September 5-6 24 was the document that was marked P-1228. 25 And we'll have coloured copies Monday.
1601 But -- and on all three (3) of these maps where it says 2 "West Parkway Drive" it should say 'East Parkway Drive'. 3 And on the other side where -- on the other side of 4 Ipperwash Road where it says "East Parkway Drive" it 5 should say 'West Parkway Drive.' 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Now, I wanted to just step back for a 10 minute -- minute, Mr. Whelan, and take you back to 11 September 4th and your notes of the -- at Tab 13, Exhibit 12 P-1237, the notes with respect to the incident at 13 approximately four o'clock in the afternoon, 16:00 hours 14 on the afternoon of September the 4th. 15 And the note I'm looking at, I'm going to 16 take you to, these notes start at page 4 of your notes, 17 the little -- bottom right hand corner you'll see the 18 numbers. And it's actually the fourth page here. 19 And I had asked you before if the person 20 that was by the car that you described, was Roderick 21 George, and you said you didn't know a Roderick George. 22 But you do know a Judas George? 23 A: I do. 24 Q: You -- as you told us before lunch, 25 he had been pointed out to you?
1611 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was it Judas George that was the 3 person who is beside the car? 4 A: I can't really recall. 5 Q: And the description at the bottom of 6 page 4, three (3) lines up it says -- could you read us 7 what it says? 8 A: Three (3) lines up? 9 Q: It -- well 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, start at 10 seven (7) lines up, "I observed --" 11 A: "I observed [excuse me] the butt of a 12 firearm." 13 Q: Of a rifle/firearm? 14 A: Yeah. 15 "Rifle/firearm. Two (2) Natives 16 standing right beside the trunk. 17 Negative with the big fat Native kept. 18 Blue car, rebel plate. Large Native, 19 sunglasses, Native camouflage shorts. 20 He had reached in the trunk. 21 I saw the butt of a rifle. Appeared to 22 be removing it from a gun case." 23 Q: And then it goes on: 24 "But the other Native motioned to him 25 with his hands to leave the rifle in
1621 the trunk of the car." 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you've described the individual 4 in two (2 ) places, one on page 4 and one on page 5. On 5 page 4 you describe him as "the big fat Native" and then 6 on page 5 "the large Native with sunglasses." 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Do you think it's appropriate to 9 describe an individual as a "big fat native?" 10 A: Fat's an adjective, I guess, to 11 describe somebody's physical physique. 12 Q: And at the next page you use "large"? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Would you agree with me that that 15 might be taken by an individual who is being described in 16 that way as a derogatory comment? 17 A: Could be, yes, I agree with you. 18 Q: Pardon? 19 A: I agree with you, yes. 20 Q: And would you agree with me that it's 21 inappropriate to use derogatory comments in your notes as 22 a police officer? 23 A: I agree with you it is, to use in my 24 notes, but that's what I seen. I use the word "fat" as 25 to describe his physical physique.
1631 Q: Okay. Now, with respect to that 2 incident on the 4th of September, at Tab 15 there's a 3 document. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this is the document that is 6 Inquiry Document 2001172 and it describes damage to a 7 cruiser at 21:27 on September 4th, 1995, and it appears 8 to have -- it does have your name on it? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And this is a report completed by you 11 on September the 5th? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And was the cruiser that was damaged 14 your cruiser? 15 A: It was. 16 Q: And that was vehicle number 1-563? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And its licence number was 041 VZZ? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And the back window was struck and -- 21 rear window was struck, in this document you say a 22 walking stick? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You said this morning it was a stick 25 -- four (4) to five (5) feet long piece of wood, but you
1641 described it back on September 5th as a walking stick. 2 Was it a walking stick? 3 A: I guess a stick of that length you 4 could use -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- to walk with, like walking-type 7 stick. 8 Q: And that's what you described it as 9 on September the 5th? 10 A: I did. 11 Q: And did you have the car repaired on 12 September the 5th? 13 A: I have no idea, I wasn't -- I didn't 14 take part in that, to whether it -- 15 Q: Getting -- getting the car repaired? 16 A: No. 17 Q: I would ask that that be marked the 18 next exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1240, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1240: Document Number 2001172. 22 Vehicle damage report, dated 23 September 06, 1995 re. 24 Occurrence date September 04, 25 1995.
1651 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And then if we could go back, before 3 lunch you -- we were talking about the picnic tables in 4 the sandy parking lot the evening of September the 5th. 5 And the exhibit number, Mr. Registrar, of 6 the map is...? 7 THE REGISTRAR: Of this map? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 9 THE REGISTRAR: 1239. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And the last document that we marked 13 the report of September the 5th is actually page 20 of 14 ninety-one (91) pages. For the record it's Inquiry 15 Document 2001172. 16 And how many -- how long was the line of 17 picnic tables on the map that you marked before lunch, 18 Mr. Whelan, at the area where you marked "1"? 19 A: I can't really remember now how long 20 it was. 21 Q: More than one (1)? 22 A: You want to know how many picnic 23 tables? 24 Q: How long was the line? 25 A: It was at least twenty (20) to thirty
1661 (30) picnic tables in total. 2 Q: So there were twenty (20) or thirty 3 (30) picnic tables in total, you thought, in the sandy 4 parking lot. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And there were picnic tables at 1, 7 and can you tell us how long -- was there one (1),two 8 (2), three (3),four (4) picnic tables lined up? 9 A: In this area here, Number 1, there 10 seemed to be less tables. 11 Q: Could you pick up the mic again, sir, 12 because we'll lose you. 13 A: In the area 1 there seemed to be less 14 tables. The tables seemed to get more -- more available, 15 more readily available as we got down this way; they 16 started to be more like stacked up in barricade -- 17 barricade type. 18 Q: So the picnic tables at 1 were not 19 stacked up? 20 A: No, they were more just single type 21 tables, maybe turned over on their sides, stuff like 22 that. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: They were more constant down in this 25 area here.
1671 Q: And the area -- this area is the area 2 marked number -- near num -- the number 2? 3 A: Number 2. 4 Q: And you indicated before lunch that 5 they were piled at that point, three (3) to four (4) 6 high? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Would you agree with me that four (4) 9 piling picnic -- these were standard picnic tables? 10 A: I have no idea. They looked like 11 picnic tables from the Park. 12 Q: And a picnic table would stand 13 about -- 14 A: They were big tables, the Park had 15 those big -- 16 Q: Big picnic tables -- 17 A: -- big tables. 18 Q: -- we've got some pictures of them. 19 But they would at least be four (4) feet high? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Okay, two and a half (2 1/2) feet 24 high. 25 A: Yeah, I agree with that.
1681 Q: And so if you had four (4) it would 2 be ten (10) feet high? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And are you -- the -- I could see two 5 (2) to three (3), but three (3) to four (4), ten (10) 6 feet high, are you saying today that at two (2) -- that 7 it was ten (10) feet high? 8 A: In front -- the ones in front of me, 9 there was three (3) or four (4) stacked up. 10 Q: And you indicated that two (2) of 11 those tables fell on the hood of your cruiser? 12 A: One (1). 13 Q: One (1). And where did it fall from? 14 A: From the top stack. 15 Q: And so it was the fourth table up 16 that fell on the top of your cruiser? 17 A: Well, I'm not sure which number it 18 was. 19 Q: But -- 20 A: It came off the stack. 21 Q: But if it was the -- if there were 22 three (3) or four (4) high -- 23 A: Well, they -- it could have been the 24 middle one, maybe, got dislodged. I don't know. One of 25 them on that stack came off -- down onto the front of the
1691 cruiser. 2 Q: And did any of the occupiers throw a 3 table on your cruiser or was -- 4 A: They were throwing tables onto the 5 stack as we were taking them off. 6 Q: And -- but no one picked up a table 7 and threw it on the hood of your cruiser that you -- 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And after we -- after you -- who gave 13 the order to withdraw, do you recall? 14 A: I don't recall. No, I don't recall. 15 Q: Do you want to -- was there a -- you 16 can sit down. Was there a -- a supervisor present at the 17 sandy parking lot? 18 A: As far as I know, there was no 19 supervisor there. 20 Q: And so who would be in charge of the 21 officers there, if there was no supervisor? 22 You can use the other mic, you can put 23 that down. Thank you. 24 A: There would be nobody in charge. 25 Q: And was there anyone giving
1701 instructions to the other officers? 2 A: As far as I know, no. 3 Q: Now, if I might, we've got some -- 4 you'll find in front of you a bundle of transcripts that 5 was -- that were created from the tapes we got this 6 morning. And you have a bundle there as well, 7 Commissioner. 8 And I'm going to play these audio clips. 9 And the first one was -- does not, I believe, involve 10 you, but as I understand it, you overheard this 11 transmission. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 14 15 Chatham Logger Tape 0143, Track 12 16 September 5, 1995 17 2204 h. 18 19 * UKM = Unknown Male 20 21 UKM: (Inaudible): mobile units 22 Lima 2 10-4 2413, 2423 Lima 2 23 2413 2413 go ahead. (go, go, go heard in 24 background) 25 Lima 2 Can you make a patrol at corner of East
1711 Parkway and Army Camp Rd. 10 -4 2 2413 Yeah 10-4 we're on 21 now just heading 3 down there 4 Lima 2 2423 Lima 2 5 End 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And that transmission took place at 11 22:04 and then there's a transmission -- the next 12 transmission's at 22:06. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 Chatham Logger Tape 0143 Track 12 17 September 5, 1995 18 2206 h 19 20 Lima 2 2412 Lima 2 21 2412 Lima 2 2412 22 Lima 2 Go ahead 2412 23 2412 Do you want us to take a run down if you 24 can't get a hold of that other unit? 25 Lima 2 Yeah. Where is 2421? Are they around
1721 2412 We have no idea where they're at. 2 Lima 2 If you just want to have a look around 3 there go ahead. 4 Unknown (Inaudible) 5 Lima 2 Lima 2 2412 6 End 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And do you recognize the voice on 12 that transmission, the voices on that transmission? 13 A: No, I do not. 14 Q: And do you recognize -- is 2412 your 15 vehicle? 16 A: I'd have to check to see. From this 17 I don't know what -- what number I was issued that night. 18 Q: And the 2412 refers to not the actual 19 vehicle but to the number assigned for the frequency; is 20 that correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And then perhaps it'll become clear 23 when we go to the next one. And this one is at 22:22 24 hours. 25
1731 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 Chatham Logger Tape 0143 Track 12 4 September 5, 1995 5 2222h 6 7 2412 Lima 2 2412 8 Lima 2 2412 Lima 2 9 2412 We got a lot of activity down by the main 10 gate. ATV out in the road 11 swing around in a circle and about 7 or 8 12 natives sort of standing on the 13 road 14 Lima 2 10-4 15 2413 2413 will make a spin down there 16 End 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And do you recognize any of the 22 voices on that transmission? 23 A: Yeah. The 22 -- the one voice 2212 24 we got activity, sounds like my voice. 25 Q: 2412.
1741 A: Yeah, 2412, sorry. 2 Q: And so that the -- is it fair to 3 assume that you -- you are in car 2412? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And when you say, We've got a long -- 6 a lot of activity down by the main gate. What are you 7 referring to? 8 A: Be probably by the entrance to the 9 Provincial Park. 10 Q: At the entrance of the Provincial 11 Park or the entrance off the sandy parking lot? 12 A: Well I guess I'm not sure on that. 13 I'd have to say I really -- I'm really not sure what I 14 was referring to at that time. 15 Q: All right. Then -- and the next one 16 in this little group of transcripts, I would just like 17 everyone to remove it. It's 22:25, "How's things with 18 Delta. Real quiet." We're not supposed to do that one. 19 Then the next one's at 22:29. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 Chatham Logger Tape 0143 Track 12 24 September 5, 1995 25 2229h
1751 2412 Lima 2 2412 2 Lima 2 2412 Lima 2 3 2412 We got natives in the parking lot down 4 here by that thing 5 Lima 2 10 . 4 6 2412 Can we have some assistance down here? 7 There're throwing stuff at us. 8 UKM They're blocking the parking lot with some 9 benches as well 10 2412 They're blocking the route down to the 11 water. 12 UKM (Inaudible) 13 UKM 14 units? 14 Lima 2 2423 Lima 2 15 2423 Go ahead 16 Lima 2 Can you come down into the corner of Army 17 Camp and East Parkway and back up another 18 unit down there. 19 2412? We need some more units down here 20 Lima 2 (inaudible) car from Delta is 21 heading up there. 22 23 Page 2 24 2411 2411... 25 2422 2422 on scene there
1761 Lima 2 Sgt. Graham from Lima 2 2 Sgt Graham Go ahead. We're just leaving Forest. We're 3 on route to that area 4 Lima 2 10-4. We have a problem brewing down there 5 in that parking lot. 6 You may want to attend down there 7 8 (TRANSCRIPT CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And I'm just going to play, 12 Commissioner, the first part of this again. We've got -- 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 Chatham Logger Tape 0143 Track 12 17 September 5, 1995 18 2229h 19 20 2412 Lima 2 2412 21 Lima 2 2412 Lima 2 22 2412 We got natives in the parking lot down 23 here by that thing 24 Lima 2 10 . 4 25
1771 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now do you recognize the voices on 5 that -- 6 A: Some of them. Some of them. 7 Q: Some of the voices? 8 A: Some of them. 9 Q: And 2412 is you? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the -- do you recall making this 12 transmission? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And this was the transmission that 15 you told us about when you asked for back-up? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And it's hard to hear, but it appears 18 that it -- We've got Natives in the parking lot down here 19 by the -- it's either fence or gate. 20 Could you hear which one it was? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And we'll listen to that again in a 23 more secure area, Commissioner, and try to sort that out. 24 And there appear to be, in this 25 transmission, at least three (3) -- at least three (3)
1781 cruisers -- cars responding to the request for 2 assistance? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did Sergeant Graham arrive in the 5 parking lot before you left; do you recall? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: You don't recall. Then the next 8 transmission's at... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, it's -- it's you if I back up to 13 22:29 are asking: 14 "Can we have some assistance down here? 15 They're throwing stuff at us." 16 Then: 17 "UNKNOWN MALE: They're blocking the 18 parking lot with some benches as well." 19 And was that Constable Japp? Did you 20 recognize his voice? 21 A: It could have been, but I didn't 22 recognize his voice. 23 Q: And then you come back: 24 "They're blocking the route down to the 25 water."
1791 A: Yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: I'm told it can't be Japp because if 6 we listen again the, "They're blocking the parking lot 7 with some benches as well" almost overrides a 8 conversation that is attributed to you. And so the two 9 (2) of you couldn't be talking on the same radio at the 10 same time. Would that -- 11 A: Yeah, Constable Japp was with me in 12 the same car so no, it know it couldn't have been him. 13 Q: So only one (1) of you would be on 14 the radio? 15 A: Yeah. Well, we could have been 16 switching it back and forth but... 17 Q: But at this point it's your voice 18 that's heard? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: This is 22:37: 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 23 24 Chatham Logger Tape 0143 Track 12 25 September 5, 1995
1801 2237 h 2 3 *UNK = Unknown Male 4 5 2413 2413 Lima 2 6 Lima 2 2413 Lima 2 7 2413 They're throwing some significant rocks at 8 us now at this location. 9 Hitting cruisers, none of us have been hit 10 yet to my knowledge. 11 Lima 2 Did they back off a bit? 12 2413 We're backing off a bit just out of range 13 so we aren't getting hit. 14 UKM Dave just back up and pick me up. Just 15 back up. 16 17 (TRANSCRIPT CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And do you recognize any of the names 21 on that transmission? 22 A: No, I do not. 23 Q: And the -- it says 24:13 it -- 24 there's a typographical, Commissioner -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It should
1811 be -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it says: 3 "a bit just out of range." 4 It should read instead "of our range". 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And at 22:41: 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 10 11 Chatham Logger Tape 0413 Track 12 12 September 5, 1995 13 2241 h 14 15 *UKM = Unknown Male 16 17 UKM They must be in the bush there. Not 18 getting some from the (inaudible) 19 2421 Lima 2 2421 20 Lima 2 2421 Lima 2 you calling? 21 2421 10-4. 2421 be advised our windshield was 22 smashed by a rock corner of Army Camp and 23 (inaudible) 24 Lima 2 Alpha? 25 2422 Lima 2 2422
1821 Lima 2 2422 2 2422 Yeah, you want to duplicate that for me 3 Lima 2 10-9 4 2422 Be advised my windshield was broken too 5 2412 Yeah Lima 2, 2412 has windshield damage4 6 and front end damage also 7 UKM (Inaudible)....rocks through 8 9 (TRANSCRIPT CONCLUDED) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the -- there's an 12 error at -- 2421 says: 13 "10-4. 2424." 14 It should be, "2421 be advised our" 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And 2412 that's you again? 18 A: Yeah, that's me again. 19 Q: And then... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: At 22:49 there's a transmission: 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
1831 Chatham Logger Tapes 0143 Track 12 2 September 5, 1995 3 2249 h 4 5 *UKM = Unknown Male 6 7 2413 2413 Chatham to all units. As you come 8 around the corner they're in the 9 bush there still pelting rocks at the 10 cruisers. We just took a big rock 11 again. Be advised when you come around 12 the corner heading back up 13 towards the base. They're hiding in the 14 bush 15 UKM (Inaudible) 16 17 (TRANSCRIPT CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And do you recall hearing that 21 transmission to all units? 22 A: I don't recall hearing it, no. 23 Q: And then the last two (2) items in 24 this book, I'd like everybody to -- this group of 25 transcripts, just take off their layer and I'd ask that
1841 we mark this group of transcripts as the next exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1241, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1241: Transcript of Chatham Logger 5 Tape 0143, Track 12, 6 September 05, 1995, 22:04 7 hrs, 22:06 hrs, 22:22 hrs, 8 22:29 hrs, 22:37 hrs, 22:41 9 hrs, 22:49 hrs. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And where it says "UKN" on these, it 13 should be 'UKM', unknown male. And I'll create a disc of 14 those to file along with P-1241. 15 And if you refer to your notes, Mr. 16 Whelan, at Tab 13 or the original of your notes, 17 whichever is the handiest. 18 Where do you have in your notes the -- 19 what time did you leave the sandy parking lot? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: 22:48. 24 Q: And that's on page 9 of your notes? 25 A: Yeah, I'm reading it from my
1851 notebook. 2 Q: Pardon me? The little number at the 3 bottom of the -- on your notebook's 9? 4 A: Page 9, yes. 5 Q: And could you read the -- your notes, 6 actually starting at 22:07 on page 8. 7 A: 22:07? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Army Camp -- 10 Q: Or 22:04, excuse me. 11 A: "Despatched to patrol Army Camp, East 12 Parkway Road. ATV's running across 13 roadway. Several Natives standing on 14 the roadway. 22:15, several Natives 15 carrying picnic tables onto the roadway 16 at Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 17 Started to build barricades across 18 roadway. Two (2) Natives throw a table 19 onto the front of the cruiser. 20 Damage, dent in the right side and 21 hood. Pushed over barricade. Made a 22 hole to enter the parking lot access to 23 beach area. Twenty-five (25) to thirty 24 (30) Natives shouting obscenities 25 towards --
1861 Q: Standing. It says: 2 "Twenty-five (25) Natives standing, 3 shouting obscenities." 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: "Spitting as well. Removed picnic 7 tables that were piled up. Rocks 8 started coming in. Windshield hit. 9 Damage to the hood area. Description, 10 six (6) foot male, moustache, goatee, 11 black military fatigues threw the table 12 onto the cruiser." 13 Q: Okay. So, in your notes you indicate 14 that someone threw the -- a picnic table on to your 15 cruiser. When I asked you about this before lunch, you 16 said that your cruiser -- and just after lunch had been 17 struck by a table falling off the pile of -- the 18 barricade. 19 A: Yeah. Well, like it was close 20 proximity to the pile of the tables. Like, when he threw 21 the table, it came off the side of the -- the pile onto 22 the -- onto the front of the cruiser. 23 Q: So, but -- so, have I got this 24 correct that the -- when you pulled in towards the picnic 25 tables, the -- according to your notes, some of the
1871 occupiers picked up a table and threw it on your cruiser. 2 A: Yeah. Once we got up to the -- to 3 the actual -- close to the tables. 4 Q: And was anyone sitting on that table 5 could -- when -- before it was picked up by the 6 individuals? 7 A: No. 8 Q: So that the individuals who picked up 9 the table, you would agree with me, were on the west side 10 of the line of tables that you've drawn in the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And the -- what did these individuals 14 do? The ones that you refer to in your notes who threw 15 the table onto the hood of your cruiser, where did they 16 go? 17 A: Well, they were coming in and out of 18 the Park at the time. Some of them were standing back by 19 the tables, some of them were -- they were all over the 20 place. 21 Q: But -- and perhaps I misunderstood 22 your evidence, but I -- it had been my understanding that 23 on the exhibit -- on the exhibit that we just marked as 24 P-1238, the map, that at point four (.4) where you 25 indicate where your car started to push the picnic
1881 tables -- 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: -- that they were -- there was a -- 4 picnic tables were piled up three (3) to four (4) high. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And that it was a barricade. 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And that the -- but your notes 9 indicate that the -- a table was picked up and thrown at 10 your car, the hood of your car, and the -- my ques -- 11 what's I'm trying to understand is were the people -- the 12 individuals who threw the picnic table on your car, on 13 the west side of the barricade that you've described, the 14 same side as your car? 15 A: Yeah, they were just off to the side 16 of the -- the pile of tables. There were some right 17 behind, there were some off to the side. 18 Q: On your side of the table? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And -- excuse me, 21 Commissioner. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: So at the bottom of page 9 it would
1891 appear that: 2 "There was a table thrown on the front 3 of the hood then we pushed over the 4 barricade." 5 Can you read that on the top of page 10? 6 A: Page 10? 7 Q: At the top. You might start at the 8 bottom. 9 A: "Over the barricade --" 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: "-- and made a hole just to enter the 12 parking lot access --" 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: "-- to the beach area." 15 Q: And so that the table was thrown on 16 your car, you then started to push over the tables -- the 17 barricade? 18 A: Yeah, it was -- it was -- could have, 19 like, been simultaneously. I mean, at that point I was 20 starting to push the tables. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Okay. So it was sort of close. 23 Q: And according to your notes, this 24 incident took about half an hour; is that correct? 25 A: Yeah approximately that.
1901 Q: And with the call for assistance... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: At 22:29 if you look at the 6 transcripts, it's the... 7 A: 22:29, yes. 8 Q: Yes. That's when -- is that when 9 you're down at the intersection and people are throwing 10 rocks? 11 A: Yeah, that's correct. 12 Q: Then can you tell us, just using your 13 notes what you did for the balance of your shift on 14 September the 5th? 15 A: 10-8 from -- after that I resumed the 16 patrol. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: Seven o'clock in the morning, 10-8 19 from 'A' to Forest OPP -- 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: -- for a debriefing. And then we 22 were back down there the next morning -- 23 Q: Okay. And we'll -- 24 A: -- at 7:58. 25 Q: So --
1911 A: We came back down to remove the 2 tables. 3 Q: And the -- at seven o'clock where it 4 says: 5 "10-8 from 'A'", so you're at 6 Checkpoint 'A' which was just west of 7 the intersection of East Parkway and 8 Army Camp Road? 9 A: Yeah. Somewhere in that area, yeah. 10 Q: And were you -- did you get stationed 11 at Checkpoint 'A' for the balance of the evening do you 12 recall? 13 A: I can't recall. 14 Q: And so the next morning at 7:58 that 15 -- can you read that note at 7:58? 16 A: "10-8 remove obstructions from Army 17 Camp Road/East Parkway. Completed 18 detail." 19 Q: And do you recall what you did on the 20 morning of seven (7) -- at the morning of September 6th 21 with the -- 22 A: Well, there was a number of officers 23 who went down there -- 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: -- with a flatbed truck --
1921 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- or some type of truck I -- I don't 3 exactly know the description. And we went down and 4 actually physically loaded the picnic tables onto the 5 truck and removed them. 6 Q: And did you help do that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you recall what it looked like 9 when you arrived down there on the morning of September 10 the 6th? 11 A: No, I -- I can't remember. 12 Q: Do you recall whether the picnic 13 tables were in a circle? 14 A: I can't remember. 15 Q: Do you recall whether there was a 16 tent in the center of the circle? 17 A: I can't remember. 18 Q: Do you recall seeing anyone at the 19 picnic tables when you arrived with the other officers? 20 A: I believe I recall seeing one (1) 21 person on a table. I believe it was inside the Park 22 though. 23 Q: Inside the Park? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Now, we've had a picture that's been
1931 marked as an exhibit that shows the picnic tables in a 2 circle on the morning of September the 6th, and does 3 that -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- assist? 6 A: Ten (10) years ago, I -- I can't 7 remember exactly what I seen that morning. 8 Q: Now, the -- inside your book there's 9 a copy of Inquiry Document 2004343. It's just on the 10 inside cover, sir. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And this is a report -- can you tell 15 -- can you tell us what this is? 16 A: What am I looking at again here? 17 Q: It's just on the inside of the cover 18 of that -- 19 A: Right here? 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Looks like some type of damage or
1941 general report regarding damage to a cruiser. 2 Q: And this is a report that appears to 3 have been made by Constable Japp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it's a general occurrence report 6 with respect to an incident from September 5, '95 at 7 22:15? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And Constable Japp was your partner 10 that evening? 11 A: He was. 12 Q: And do you recognize -- this a 13 general occurrence and incident report, is it not, that-- 14 A: Yeah, it is. 15 Q: That if you go to the back, there's a 16 -- the last page in this document is a report -- 17 typewritten report that was prepared by Constable -- 18 second last page, Constable Japp and he's describing the 19 incident on September 5th, 1995 at 22:15, involving 20 vehicle number 1-563, licence plate 041 BZZ. 21 And that was the cruiser that both you and 22 Constable Japp were in on the eve -- evening of September 23 the 5th? 24 A: Yeah, that's correct. 25 Q: And he indicates:
1951 "Observed Natives putting picnic 2 tables, barricading road. Moved 3 tables. Two (2) Natives threw table 4 onto hood of car. When confronting 5 Natives -- Natives, rocks thrown 6 striking windshield and rest of unit." 7 And the -- did you discuss this report 8 with Constable Japp on September the 6th? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And do you agree with his 11 description? 12 A: It's somewhat... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: The only thing I got to say is that 17 the car was more -- like, the car was up against the -- 18 closer to the barricades at the time. 19 Q: And the -- 20 A: The table throwing, I don't -- I 21 don't remember seeing two (2) Natives throwing a table. 22 I remember seeing one (1). 23 Q: But these were large tables that one 24 (1) person could pick it up and throw? 25 A: Well, the way I saw it, like I said,
1961 from the pile, yeah, you could -- you could pick it up. 2 Q: But the -- then one (1) table and 3 then throw it on? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Then on page 1, this report 6 indicates, referring to your cruiser: 7 "September 5th, 1995, at approximately 8 22:15 hours, Natives making a blockade 9 on the Army Camp Road/Bosanquet, with 10 twenty-one (21) picnic tables. 11 Attempts by police to remove them 12 resulted in Natives -- Natives throwing 13 a picnic table on hood of 1-563. 14 Unable to identify any suspects." 15 And the -- that's the same incident I, 16 hyphen one (1) -- 1-563 is your -- cruiser you're 17 operating that night? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And in this report apparently from 20 Constable Japp, it's dated September 16th, 1995, the 21 typed part, talked about twenty-one (21) picnic tables. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And is twenty-one (21) closer to the 24 number. You said twenty (20) to thirty (30). 25 A: It's an estimate.
1971 Q: Okay. Perhaps we'll mark this the 2 next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1242, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1242: Document number 2004343. 6 General Occurrence Report, 7 September 05, 1995 and memo 8 to District Commander, 9 September 19, 1995. 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Registrar, 12 what was the number again? 13 THE REGISTRAR: 1242, sir. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Constable Evans 15 has been of assistance. He listened to the trans -- the 16 trans -- transmission at 22:29, Commissioner, and it's 17 Exhibit -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1241. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1241. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: P-1241. And the line, the third line 23 where it says: 24 "24:12, we've got natives in the 25 parking lot down here by the gate."
1981 It should be, "down here by that thing." 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: "By that 3 thing"? 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: That's what it says. And that's 7 attributed to you, Mr. -- Mr. Whelan. Do you have any -- 8 A: I have no idea what that thing is. 9 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, after -- you 10 went off duty at ten o'clock in the morning of September 11 the 6th, that's at page 10 of your notes. 12 A: What tab have you got there? 13 Q: That's Tab 13 of the book in front of 14 you, the third page from the back. 15 A: Page 10? 16 Q: Yeah page 10 at -- the little page 10 17 is the number in the bottom of your notebook. 18 A: Oh, okay. Yes. 19 Q: Okay, you got that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And it was ten o'clock you went off 22 duty? 23 A: For what day? 24 Q: Sep -- after the picnic table 25 incident on the morning --
1991 A: Yeah, ten o'clock, yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Okay. Now you came back on duty at - 6 - in the evening of September the 6th? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And what were you assigned to do? 9 What did you do? 10 A: "18:30 a briefing at Forest OPP. 11 Oscar team number 1 with Constable 12 Mortimer and myself." 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: "Oscar team --" 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: "-- with Constable Mortimer and 17 myself." 18 There was debriefing at Forest garage 19 there. 20 Q: A briefing, yes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Then it says: 23 "21:00, 10-8 from..." 24 Just read that for me, okay? 25 A: 21:00?
2001 Q: Yeah. 2 A: "10-8 in TOC, Lima 2 to Oscar 3 position." 4 Q: Yes...? 5 A: Yeah, we -- we were an observation 6 team. 7 Q: Okay. I'm going to get to that. And 8 then it says: 9 "14:00 off duty September 7 '95." 10 So you were on duty all through the night 11 until two o'clock in the afternoon of September the 7th? 12 A: That's correct. A long night. 13 Q: And so can you recall who briefed you 14 about the Oscar -- about what you were to do as the Oscar 15 team? 16 A: Sergeant Korosec. 17 Q: Sergeant Korosec? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And do you recall what Sergeant 20 Korosec told you you were supposed to be doing? 21 A: Yeah. Basically we were suppose to 22 go -- head down towards the front of the Park, at the 23 parking lot area. We were suppose to find a position in 24 there where we could make observation on the front of the 25 Park and the parking lot.
2011 And then relay any valuable information 2 back to the TOC. 3 Q: And the -- when you say back to the 4 TOC, you mean the Mobile -- 5 A: Command centre. 6 Q: -- Command Centre at -- or the tac -- 7 the -- in Forest or to the MNR or both? 8 The mobile command unit was in -- 9 A: To -- to the mobile command unit. 10 Q: -- was in Forest. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And then there was a tactical 13 operation centre, as I understand, the St. John's 14 ambulance trailer was in the MNR parking lot on East 15 Parkway Drive? Do you recall that? 16 A: Yeah. I believe it was to the 17 Tactical Centre on East Parkway Drive. 18 Q: And that -- it's my understanding 19 that was Tactical Operation Centre on East Parkway Drive 20 was referred to as Lima 2? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And the -- you were given the 23 instructions at 6:30 to form an Oscar team and then it's 24 about two and a half (2 1/2) hours later before you leave 25 from the MNR parking lot to take up your position?
2021 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And what did you do in the meantime; 3 do you recall? 4 A: Basically we got prepared, got suited 5 up in tactical gear. 6 Q: And when you say you were "suited up 7 in tactical gear," can you -- 8 A: Green -- green tactical camouflage 9 outfit. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: We had a -- our standard duty belt 12 on. 13 Q: Your standard...? 14 A: Duty belt. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: We had night vision goggles. 17 Q: Yes...? 18 A: And we both carried mini Ruger 19 rifles. 20 Q: And mini Ruger is a...? 21 A: .223 semi-automatic rifle. 22 Q: And the -- can you tell us about the 23 night vision goggles; how did they operate? 24 A: They weren't the best quality in the 25 world, they were the older type. If you -- well, the
2031 night vision is designed to pick up any type of -- of 2 light that's in the area and bring it into the -- into 3 the lens so that you can see in the dark. 4 But if you look at any really bright light 5 then your vision's destroyed because it sucks too much 6 light into the -- into the vision -- 7 Q: So if you look at a fire or -- 8 A: Fire or flashlight or headlight or 9 any -- any kind of illuminated light, your vision was 10 gone. 11 Q: And do you recall on the evening of 12 September the 5th, or the evening of September the 6th, 13 whether there were any street lights in the sandy parking 14 lot? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: And so at -- as I take it from your 17 note: 18 "21:00 10-8 from TOC to Oscar 19 position." 20 So you left the MNR parking lot at nine 21 o'clock, 21:00 hours, and you went to your position. And 22 can you tell us where the position was? 23 A: It was down right -- right at the 24 parking lot area. There's a -- a roadway going into a 25 small cottage there on the corner.
2041 Q: And if you look at the diagram that 2 we marked this morning, can you -- that's Exhibit P -- 3 THE REGISTRAR: 1239. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1239. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And can you point out, on Exhibit P- 8 1239, the roadway that you're referring to? 9 A: Right here. 10 Q: And could you put the number "6" -- 11 take the pencil, the -- the black pen and write the 12 number "6" on that roadway? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And if you want to just -- can you -- 17 using Exhibit P-1239, can you indicate if the -- the 18 cottage at the -- that point was in the north end of the 19 property? 20 A: Yeah. The -- the cottage was 21 somewhere in this area here. 22 Q: I think it would probably be -- I 23 think you're -- the -- the -- actually the cottage is 24 farther up. This is a large scale drawing, actually -- 25 A: Large. Okay. It was -- well, where
2051 we were from the road, we weren't very far off the road. 2 Q: So about how far? 3 A: Well the cottage was back maybe a 4 hundred (100) feet off the road, a hundred and fifty 5 (150) feet. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: We were between there and the 8 cottage. 9 Q: Okay. So you were somewhere between 10 the roadway, the entranceway, and the cottage which was 11 up towards the lake? 12 A: Yeah, that's correct. 13 Q: And the cottage that you're referring 14 to was a white cottage at the time? 15 A: I believe it was. 16 Q: And... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And if you just want to -- whoops, 21 sit down again, Mr. Whelan. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: This is a -- a part of Exhibit P-
2061 437B, the electronic version of P-437A, and can you -- 2 using the laser, can you point out the roadway and the 3 cottage -- 4 A: Right in there. 5 Q: And you're pointing out to an area 6 immediately to the west of the sandy parking lot and it 7 is a -- a lot -- the very first lot on the west side? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, Mr. Registrar, if you could just 10 -- I mean, Mr. Hewitt if you could just pass this up to 11 our Witness. 12 This is a small version of this map. It's 13 not coloured, unfortunately, but it does show the lot and 14 on the -- the -- you're indicating -- could you indicate 15 just -- do you see this is a copy of what's on the 16 screen. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And could you just take a pen and put 19 an "X" where you were, your -- your position was on the 20 evening of September the 6th? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And could you then, as well, on the 25 lot -- on the picture, show where your -- where you
2071 marked it, approximately? 2 A: Approximately. 3 Q: So you're on the -- the point is 4 closer to the cottage than to the roadway? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And we've got on the screen a copy of 7 photo number 2, of the photo brief, and this is a shot 8 described as a shot of the sandy parking lot and the 9 laneway. 10 And do you recognize this photograph? 11 A: Yes, that's the laneway leading into 12 the cottage. 13 Q: And it's described as facing north on 14 East Parkway Drive, showing roadway to beach. And on the 15 left hand side, beside the cement block, is the road to 16 the cottage you're referring to? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And now just for your information, 19 it's our -- the evidence is that that concrete block 20 wasn't there. 21 A: No, things have changed a little. 22 Q: Okay. And then photo number 6, is 23 that the cottage that you referred to? 24 A: That's the cottage. 25 Q: And that is described as facing
2081 northwest, showing road to beach. 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: The area around it has changed a lot 5 since then, also. 6 Q: It's changed since then, that's 7 right. But on the evening of September the 6th, could 8 you point out for us, in photo number 6, where you were 9 located, if you can -- 10 A: Somewhere in this general area here. 11 Q: Where the -- on the left hand side of 12 the photo there -- 13 A: Yeah, like the -- 14 Q: -- it says trees and bushes. 15 A: The foliage was a lot thicker back 16 ten (10) years ago. 17 Q: There's actually a cottage there now, 18 but back -- 19 A: Yeah, well the house. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: You couldn't see the house from the 22 roadway, from the foliage back -- 23 Q: The white house? 24 A: -- back ten (10) years ago, no. 25 Q: This actually -- photograph was taken
2091 in September of 1995, so, at the end -- September 18th, 2 19th. But the -- you were on the lefthand side in the -- 3 A: Somewhere -- somewhere -- 4 Q: -- trees that you can see behind the 5 concrete block. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And perhaps we could reserve a 8 number, Commissioner, the next number for exhibits 6 and 9 2 and we'll have to create a -- a disc for photos 6 and 10 2. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Under the same exhibit 12 number, sir? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1243, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1243. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1243: Reserved. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: So if you go down -- how long did -- 21 do you recall how long it took you to get into position? 22 A: I'm just giving an estimate, it was 23 quite a long -- because we went along the -- we went 24 along the lake most of the way and then we cut up into 25 the bush.
2101 So it was -- I'm only -- this is only an 2 estimate, maybe forty (40) minutes to -- to an hour, 3 somewhere in that area. Maybe a little longer. 4 Q: And using the laser, could you point 5 out -- you left, I take it, from the MNR parking lot 6 which is near a checkpoint in the area to the south of -- 7 that on the map Checkpoint B-1 and A-2? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then can you tell us how you -- 10 show us how you got there, the route you travelled? 11 A: Well this is just from memory. 12 Q: Sure. That's all we can ask. 13 A: I recall we went -- went across 14 through here, right over to the lakefront -- lake bed. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And then we came up all along here 17 until we started to get close to the -- the parking lot 18 area. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And then we cut up -- cut up in here 21 somewhere and then -- and then into the thick bush, we 22 walked over towards until we hit that cottage. 23 Q: The white cottage at -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- the end, that we've seen in photo
2111 6. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Now this photograph is actually a 4 later photograph. This was taken in 1990 -- 2004, I 5 think, so that it's changed. But the -- so you went 6 along the -- the lakefront then cut up to the cottage at 7 the end. 8 Did you know whose cottage that was at the 9 time? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: And when you were there what did you 12 have to use as a -- to communicate with Lima 2? 13 A: We both were equipped with Eagle 14 headsets, talk headsets -- 15 Q: And -- 16 A: -- push to talk. 17 Q: Push to talk? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: So that it -- it was a headset and 20 you just simply push the button in your hand? 21 A: Yeah. You had a -- a finger -- your 22 headset come over both of your ears, okay, with a boom in 23 front, and then you had a little piece that clipped on 24 your finger, that you clip, so you could just click it to 25 talk.
2121 Q: Okay. And we've captured, I hope, 2 all of your transmissions that are -- most of which have 3 been marked, but if we could ask you to turn to Tab 18 of 4 the book in front of you. And this is Exhibit P-1124. 5 Now can you just sort of describe what you 6 can recall of what happened during the period of time 7 that you were there, and then we'll go to these 8 transcripts. 9 A: Okay. Well basically we -- we looked 10 around for a spot that we could see, as best we could, 11 the -- the front of the Park along the fence, the parking 12 lot and the -- the main entrance to the Park. 13 Q: When you say, "the main entrance to 14 the Park," you mean the entrance off the sandy parking 15 lot? 16 A: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, that's 17 correct. We wanted to get as much -- as much view as 18 really as -- as the front -- main front of the -- the 19 Park area. 20 Q: So that, using Exhibit P-1239, you 21 wanted to see along the fence line, there's a turnstile 22 here and a gate here -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- is that what you referred to as 25 the --
2131 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- front entrance to the Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And -- and were you able to observe 5 that area from your position? 6 A: Yes, that's correct. 7 Q: And do you recall today what you 8 observed? 9 A: Hmm. 10 Q: When you arrived, were there people 11 in sandy parking lot? 12 A: There was. 13 Q: And how many? 14 A: From my estimate, probably twenty 15 (20), somewhere around twenty (20) people. 16 Q: And the -- there was a -- do you 17 recall -- I note that you made no notes, but do you have 18 any other independent recollection of what you saw down 19 there, before we go to these transcripts? 20 A: Yes. Well the reason I didn't make 21 any notes, because it was kind of hard to. 22 Q: That was afterwards you made the 23 notes. 24 A: Back then. 25 Q: I appreciate this, yes, right.
2141 A: Yes, there was quite a bit of 2 activity, vehicular and -- and people walking around. 3 There was a camp fire. There was vehicles coming and 4 going; appeared to be dropping off rocks or some type of 5 wood or pieces of wood. 6 It appeared to me that the fence had been 7 taken down, because I observed one (1) vehicle drive 8 right -- right across where the fence used to be, so I 9 took it from that that the fence was down. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: That's about all I can remember from 12 my -- 13 Q: Okay. Then the -- at Tab 18 there's 14 a transmission at 21:25 hours, and it's identified as 15 being you: 16 "Lima 2, Oscar 1 17 Go ahead. Ah, Oscar 1. 18 We're (inaudible) now, got about a 19 dozen, a lot of vehicle activity behind 20 me coming in from ah the back of the 21 Park. 22 Yeah, except the last part you're ah 23 blasting me out, ah. 24 WHELAN: Got about twelve (12) around 25 the fire, got a lot of vehicle traffic
2151 behind and around down towards the 2 beach. 3 10-4." 4 And the -- this activity, was it inside 5 the Park? 6 A: No, it was in the parking lot area. 7 Q: And where it says, "from the back of 8 the Park," what are you referring to there? 9 A: Well I had the night vision goggles 10 on so I could see vehicle headlights. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Being driven -- being driven -- 13 driving around and coming up towards the Park, up towards 14 the parking lot area. 15 Q: And the evidence we've heard from the 16 occupiers is that there was a fire on the inside of the 17 Park near the turnstile, using P-1239, and not a fire 18 outside the Park. 19 And could you tell with the naked eye, 20 could you see whether the fire was inside or outside the 21 Park? 22 A: It was -- it was -- it would have 23 been an estimate of me, I mean the distance and the night 24 time. It appeared to me at the time that it was outside 25 the Park, possibility it could have been inside.
2161 Q: So that it might very well have been 2 inside the Park? 3 A: Might have. 4 Q: And there is a transmission at 21:26. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And this is at Tab 19, Exhibit P- 9 1125. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 Radio Transmission: 14 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 15 Date: 06 September 1995 16 Start Time: 21:26 hours 17 Duration of Transmission: 43 seconds 18 Conversation Involves: Lima One Oscar 1 (Whelan) 19 20 Lima 1: Lima one to Oscar position, Whelan 21 Whelan: Go ahead Lima one 22 Lima 1: Oscar one can you confirm the location of 23 the fire, is it within the Provincial Park 24 or outside 25 Whelan: Fire is outside the park. I/A... there's
2171 a lot of ah, a lot of traffic down there's 2 and a lot of people down there, there's at 3 least ah, probably another fifteen now. 4 Seems to be more coming in. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And that's your voice? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you're referred to as Oscar 1? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And there were more people coming 14 down to that part of the Park, was what you were 15 referring to? 16 A: That's what I was referring to, yes. 17 Q: And inside or outside, or do you 18 recall today? 19 A: I really can't recall. 20 Q: And... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: At this point you report to -- to 25 LIMA 1.
2181 LIMA 1 is back at the Mobile Command Unit 2 in Forest? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: That you thought that the fire was 5 outside the Park? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And did you observe the fire again 8 with your naked eye or through the night vision goggles? 9 A: Naked eye. 10 Q: And as you indicated it was a dark 11 night and you're not now certain if it was inside or 12 outside. But at the time you thought it was outside? 13 A: At the time I thought it was. 14 Q: Then at Tab 20 is a copy of the 15 transcript P-1127. It's a transmission at 21:32 hours. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 Radio Transmission: 20 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 21 Date: 06 September 1995 22 Start Time: 21:32 hours 23 Duration of Transmission: 57 seconds 24 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Oscar one (Whelan) 25
2191 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 2 Whelan: Lima two Oscar one 3 Lima 2: Go ahead Oscar one 4 Whelan: Yeah there's vehicles, it looks like 5 they've pulled the fence down cause it 6 looks like vehicles are driving right 7 through from the park. Their numbers are 8 growing considerably. They're backing up 9 vehicles it looks like they are removing 10 objects from a trunk. Can't say what it 11 is, it's either clubs or something along 12 that line 13 Lima 2: Ten four Oscar one, are you ten four on 14 that Lima one 15 Lima 1: That's ten four Lima two ah, he just 16 walked out but I'll advise 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And that's your voice? 22 A: It is. 23 Q: And you say there are vehicles 24 driving through from the Park. And you told me a moment 25 ago you saw one (1) vehicle drive through what you saw
2201 was the fence? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And not vehicles, but one (1) -- one 4 (1) vehicle? 5 A: Yeah, there was more coming. 6 Q: Coming up -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- inside the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: But did you observe those cars that 11 were inside the Park? 12 A: I only observed the one (1) vehicle 13 come out into the parking lot. 14 Q: One (1) vehicle coming -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And on this -- on Exhibit P-1239, 17 this is very difficult to -- because of the scale, can 18 you see where the -- where the car -- point out where the 19 car came out of the... 20 A: Not accurately. 21 Q: Not accurately? 22 A: No. 23 Q: But it was north from the -- from the 24 gate and the turnstile area? 25 A: That's correct.
2211 Q: Then 21:41 hours you have another 2 transmission. Commissioner, it's at Tab 21 Exhibit P- 3 1129. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 Radio Transmission: 8 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 9 Date: 06 September 1995 10 Start Time: 21:41 hours 11 Duration of Transmission: 39 seconds 12 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Lima One (Graham) Oscar 13 1 (Whelan) 14 15 Graham: Ten four 16 Whelan: Lima two Oscar one 17 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 18 Graham: Go ahead Oscar one 19 Whelan: Yeah we got a lot of traffic down here, 20 got ATVs on the beach that are coming up 21 ...I/A... position, we've moved back a 22 little bit. Ah vehicular traffic on the 23 road ...I/A... stop, I don't know. People 24 ...I/A...in the general area also. We've 25 got people all over the place here we've
2221 moved back a little bit, it's getting 2 henky 3 Graham: Ah ten four 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And that's again you on that 9 transmission at 21:40 -- 21:41 hours? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And could you pick up any of the 12 inaudible parts? 13 A: Not really. 14 Q: Okay. And it indicates that you 15 moved back a little bit. And what does that -- can you 16 recall today what that referred to? 17 A: Well, we moved our position back 18 because of the pedestrian activity in the area. I didn't 19 want to get discovered so we decided we'd get a little 20 deeper in the bush. 21 Q: So you moved farther back into the 22 bush? 23 A: Farther back. 24 Q: And you indicate we've got people all 25 over the place so we've moved back a little bit.
2231 And when you say, "people all over the 2 place," what were you referring to? 3 A: Well you could hear people's voices. 4 It appeared to be people just the other side of the 5 cottage. I could hear voices walking -- I could hear 6 people walking through the bush. 7 Q: On the other side of the cottage, on 8 the north side of the cottage? 9 A: Yeah, on the -- on the lake side. 10 Q: On the lake side, so people -- 11 A: And I could hear -- 12 Q: -- may have been down on the beach? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Well definitely there was ATVs on the 16 beach, because with my night vision I could see 17 headlights. 18 Q: So from where you were, you could see 19 over the top of the bank, down onto the beach. 20 A: Yeah, you could -- well the 21 illumination, you know, the -- the night vision 22 illuminates it up -- 23 Q: I -- 24 A: -- very, you know, very -- it was 25 just like a, boom, spotlight coming out.
2241 Q: So what you saw, not -- wasn't the 2 actual -- the ATV's, but you saw lights that you assumed 3 were ATVs? 4 A: Yeah, bobbing along, looked like ATVs 5 to me. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I could hear voices, people talking 8 and walking out on the road, on East Parkway Road. 9 Q: On the -- on the road? But you 10 couldn't see them from your position? 11 A: Couldn't see them but I could hear 12 them. 13 Q: On East -- on the actual road, East 14 Parkway Road. 15 A: Yeah. And I could hear people -- I'd 16 say at one time we -- when we were really dug in there, 17 there was some people that walked within maybe fifteen 18 (15) feet of where we were. 19 Q: And was that early on or later on? 20 A: That was later on, just before -- 21 that was after I said that we moved back in -- farther 22 back, because we didn't want to get discovered. 23 Q: And that's -- this is at 21:41, where 24 you say you moved back a bit. 25 A: Yeah. It was around that time.
2251 Q: And did you see the people that you 2 heard? 3 A: I heard them; they were close. 4 Q: But did you see them? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And did you know -- when did you 7 learn that there was -- did you learn, at some point, in 8 and around this time, that there was a TRU team deployed 9 down -- 10 A: Later -- 11 Q: -- towards this area. 12 A: Later on. At that time, I didn't 13 know. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Okay. Later on I found out. 16 Q: Okay. We'll come to that, then. 17 A: But that definitely wasn't the TRU 18 team. 19 Q: Okay. And why do you say that? 20 A: From the conversation I heard. 21 Q: Oh, you overheard conversation? 22 A: Yeah, well, I can't say what they 23 were saying now, I can't remember, but it definitely 24 wasn't TRU team. 25 Q: Okay. And then you say that things
2261 are getting a little -- it's getting henky? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: What does that mean? 4 A: Sort of a ter -- I thought they were 5 going to find out where we were, so I was getting a 6 little edgy that we maybe should get out there, because I 7 didn't really want to confront First Nations people down 8 there that night, in that particular area. 9 So I thought for our safety, and everybody 10 else's safety, we should get out of there. 11 Q: But -- and what's the term 'henky' 12 refer to? 13 A: With the hair -- 14 Q: Is that -- is that a term of art? 15 A: -- the hair on the back -- the hair 16 on your back sort of gets -- gets up, you know, you're 17 sort of concerned that something may happen. 18 Q: So that's a term that's known -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- to other police officers? 21 A: Yeah, it's like things may go wrong, 22 type of thing. 23 Q: Okay. Then your next transmission is 24 one (1) minute later. It's 21:42. 25
2271 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 Radio Transmission: 4 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 5 Date: 06 September 1995 6 Start Time: 21:42 hours 7 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 1second 8 Conversation Involves: Lima One (Korosec) Oscar 1 9 (Whelan) 10 11 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 12 Lima 1: Go ahead Lima one 13 Whelan: Can you confirm that the people ah 14 ...I/A... in our area. If we've got 15 people close by I'd like to know 16 Lima 1: Got the dayshift down, coming down right 17 now, ah, in crowd management ah formation, 18 they're driving down right now 19 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 20 Lima 1: Oscar one go ahead 21 Whelan: Can you confirm the delta people are in 22 the area, we got people in our area all 23 around here it's getting henky and I just 24 want to confirm that ah delta's around 25 here
2281 Lima 1: Oscar one from Lima one, if you got to get 2 out of there get out of there ten four 3 Oscar 1: Ten four 4 Lima 1: And advise when you have 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And that -- the voice on that 10 transmission is your voice? 11 A: It is. 12 Q: And that's Exhibit P-1130, 13 Commissioner. 14 And the Lima 1 was Sergeant Korosec? 15 A: I believe so, yes. 16 Q: And then the next transmission 17 appears to be it's the next tab, Tab 23, at 21:46. This 18 is Region 6 for the reporter's benefit. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 21 22 [Oscar 1 calls Whelan, Neil] 23 24 [TAC 1 = TRU Tactical Command Vehicle 25 OSCAR Team = Whelan and Mortimer]
2291 TAC 1: Oscar team on the ground from TAC 1; Oscar 2 team on the ground from TAC 1. 3 Oscar 1: Oscar 1, are you calling? 4 TAC 1: Oscar team from TAC 1, can you go back to 5 the house you just passed? 6 Oscar1: I/A. 10-4. 7 8 (TRANSCRIPT CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And do you recognize the -- the voice 12 on that transmission? Is that your voice? 13 A: Yeah it's partially my voice. It's 14 not all -- all my voice. 15 Q: So you're Oscar 1? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And just -- we were told is at 21:46 18 hours and Tac 1 is from -- what's Tac 1? 19 A: I believe Tac 1 would be the TRU 20 team. 21 Q: And the -- it indicates, "can you go 22 back to the house you just passed"; what -- did you 23 report in that you just passed some houses? 24 A: I believe that the TRU team were 25 trying to locate us.
2301 Q: Yes. 2 A: So they probably had seen us heading 3 back and told us to go back to a certain position so they 4 could meet up with us. 5 Q: And did you do that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I would ask that this transcript 8 be marked the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1244, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1244: Transcript of Region 06, 12 Oscar 1, Tac 1, September 06, 13 1995, 21:46 hrs, Chatham 14 Communications Centre, Logger 15 tape number 0146, Track 12 , 16 Disc 12 or 20. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And do you recall which -- were you 20 aware when you received this transmission at 21:46? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? 23 A: No, I can't recall. 24 Q: And so did you go back? You went 25 back to where you were?
2311 A: Yes, we did. 2 Q: And did you speak to -- did you meet 3 up with anyone from the TRU team? 4 A: Yes, we did. 5 Q: And do you recall who you met up 6 with? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Was it Mr. Deane? 9 A: I -- no. I -- I don't know -- really 10 know who it was. They -- they were -- they had their 11 tactical gear on and their camouflage gear on and I -- I 12 didn't who they were. 13 Q: Okay. Was it Mr. Urban (phonetic) do 14 you recall? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Now, if we could turn to Tab 24, the 17 transmission, it's P-1131 at 22:06 hours. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 20 21 Radio Transmission: 22 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 23 Date: 06 September 1995 24 Start Time: 22:07 hours 25 Duration of Transmission: 15 seconds
2321 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Oscar 1 2 3 Lima 2: Oscar Oscar one ah Lima two 4 Oscar 1: Go ahead Oscar 5 Lima 2: Oscar one ah Lima two do you want to fall 6 back ah to the OC fall back 7 Oscar 1: Ten four 8 9 (TRANSCRIPT CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Actually the transmission we just 13 played was at Tab 25 P-1132 at 22:07 hours. The 14 transmission -- that's your voice on there, Mr. Whelan? 15 A: It is. 16 Q: And at 22:06 there's a transmission 17 P-1131: 18 "OSCAR -- LIMA 2: Oscar 1 from Lima 19 2." 20 Then Oscar 1 replies: 21 "Lima 2, Oscar 1. 22 LIMA 2: Are you still in position 23 Oscar 1? 24 OSCAR 1: Oscar 1, we're still in our 25 position [and then it's inaudible)"
2331 And I'm certain I have that somewhere on 2 my machine but it's not readily available. 3 But do you recall being asked if you were 4 still in position before you were told to fall back? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And so at -- as noted in Exhibit P- 7 1132 at 22:07 hours on the evening of September the 6th 8 you were asked to fall back to the TOC? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that's the Tactical Operations 11 Centre at the MNR parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you do that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how long did it take you to get 16 back? 17 A: Probably the better part of forty- 18 five (45) minutes maybe in that area. 19 Q: Could you repeat that? I don't 20 think -- 21 A: Thirty (30) to forty-five (45) 22 minutes, somewhere in that area. 23 Q: And when you got back to the MNR 24 parking lot what was happening, if anything, at the MNR 25 parking lot?
2341 A: The CMU, the Crowd Management Unit -- 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: -- was just starting to form up at 4 the -- at the TOC. They hadn't left yet; they hadn't 5 pulled out on the road yet. 6 Q: So they were in the MNR parking lot 7 getting ready to leave? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And we know that they, from radio 10 transmissions, went -- started down the road at -- at 11 approximately 10:44 so you were back by that -- before 12 they went down the road? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what duties were you assigned 15 when you got back? 16 A: We were assigned to protect the front 17 of the TOC. We were positioned out front on the roadway. 18 Q: And is that what you did? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the -- and how long did you stay 21 there? 22 A: All night. 23 Q: All night at the -- and could you -- 24 did you hear any of the -- anything -- after the Crowd 25 Management Unit went down the road were you able to pick
2351 up radio communications between this leader, CMU leader, 2 or the TRU Team and the Command Centre or the Tactical 3 Operations Centre for the TRU Team? Were you in that 4 link or were they...? 5 A: We weren't in the TRU Team link. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: We couldn't hear anything the TRU 8 Team was talking about. You -- you -- we could hear the 9 CMU. 10 Q: And could you hear them without -- 11 did you have to turn on your -- did you still have your 12 headset? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And could you hear it without -- was 15 it live -- was the headset live and you could hear all 16 the conversations? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what do you recall hearing -- 19 what do you recall of the march down the road and the 20 confrontation? 21 A: Well there wasn't much talk on the 22 way down. The next thing -- the only thing I remember 23 from my memory is the -- a lot of shouting in -- into the 24 headset as far as the school bus coming out. 25 And then there was a lot of gunshots.
2361 Q: And do you recall how many? 2 A: No. I don't recall how many. You 3 could hear them -- you could hear it without -- without 4 even the headset on. Like you could hear it like 5 travelling through the air. 6 Q: And did you hear the order to 7 withdraw? Did you hear any orders? Any -- 8 A: No, no. 9 Q: And when the -- were you still in 10 position at the front of the MNR parking lot when the 11 Crowd Management re -- the unit returned? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And looking at the extract from 437A, 14 and I can't remember what we marked the small map, what 15 exhibit number, Mr. Registrar. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps I didn't mark 20 it. 21 THE REGISTRAR: No, you didn't 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, should mark -- I 23 had Mr. Whelan mark a small version of what's up on the 24 screen with a pencil and a note where he was. 25 And so I'd like to mark that little map as
2371 the next exhibit then. 2 THE REGISTRAR: That's P-40 -- P-437B, 3 the original. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The original was P- 5 437B but I've -- it's a version of it but it should be a 6 separate exhibit number. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. That is 8 P-1245. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1245: Small map of P-437B marked by 11 Witness Mr. Neil Whelan, 12 March 29, 2006. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And on the -- the map that's up on 16 the screen, the large version of what's now P-1245, where 17 were you located when you returned to the TOC? 18 A: Right in front of the TOC. I was on 19 the other side of the road in the bushes here. 20 Q: On the north side of the road in the 21 bushes? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: So right immediate -- there's two (2) 24 yellow spots, one B-1 and one A-2 just to the north of 25 those?
2381 A: Yeah somewhere in that general area. 2 Q: Okay. And -- and how long did you 3 stay at the -- in that position? 4 A: All night. 5 Q: And when the CMU returned did you 6 speak to any of the CMU officers? 7 A: No. My orders were to stay in there, 8 protect the TOC and any activity on the roadway, and make 9 sure nobody came down the roadway. 10 Q: Down the roadway from the beach? 11 A: Yes. From the -- up from the Army 12 Camp. 13 Q: And were -- 14 A: That's where I stayed. 15 Q: Were you in a position -- were you 16 visible or were you concealed. 17 A: No, I was not visible. Concealed. 18 Q: And if I could ask you to just take a 19 look at your notes for a moment at Tab 13. The -- were 20 you at the -- and I'm referring to page 10 of your notes. 21 And in the tab it's the third page from the back. 22 And it indicates you went off-duty at -- 23 September the 7th at 14:00 hours. the -- were you in the 24 -- your position at the MNR parking lot -- north of the 25 MNR parking lot when the people marched down from the --
2391 A: No, no. I -- I -- no, we were -- by 2 that time we'd be gone. 3 Q: By that time you'd gone? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Can you tell -- do you recall what 6 time you went back to... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: So that's the morning of the -- 11 Q: The morning of the 7th. 12 A: The 7th. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And it would appear to be 14:00 off- 17 duty, 7 September '95. 18 A: Yeah. I know we left -- we left in 19 the morning as soon as -- we -- other members had come 20 in, other ERT teams had come in to relieve us. I -- but 21 I can't remember -- recall the exact time we left. It 22 was late. 23 Q: And what did you do -- 24 A: But I was not there when the actual 25 First Nations people came down the road.
2401 Q: Okay. 2 A: I was not there, I was gone. 3 Q: And what did you do for the balance 4 of the day? 5 A: Sleep. 6 Q: Sleep. But, what, excuse me, from 7 the time you left the MNR parking lot, you went back to 8 Forest and you didn't go off duty until two o'clock or 9 14:00 -- 10 A: I was debriefed. 11 Q: Debriefed? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And anything else. Were you assigned 14 any other duties? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And the -- one of the things you did 17 was speak to -- give me a moment. 18 The -- if you turn to Tab 26. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: You -- it's a copy of a statement 21 that you gave to Detective Constable Maddocks on 22 September the 7th, 1995? 23 A: Yeah, that was part of the 24 debriefing. 25 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 2003957.
2411 And I note on this document that if you look under 2 "Whelan" it says: 3 "We were ordered to do a reconnaissance 4 on a campfire that the Native persons 5 were building in the extreme west end 6 of Ipperwash Provincial Park just north 7 of the main entrance. 8 We were to gather intelligence in this 9 area and report back to Lima 2 who is 10 the person in charge of communication. 11 We performed this mission at 21:00 12 hours. We had night vision equipment." 13 So it was part of your instructions -- was 14 it your instructions to observe this campfire? 15 A: Yeah, part of it. 16 Q: And the campfire, again, is -- the 17 main gate you're referring to is the gate in the sandy -- 18 off the sandy parking lot? 19 A: Yeah, that's correct. Yes. 20 Q: Then on the next page, it refers to, 21 at 1790 -- page 1794: 22 "We observed twenty-five (25) to thirty 23 (30) Natives around the campfire." 24 And is that the campfire inside the Park? 25
2421 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Where's that again? 4 Q: At the top. 5 "We observed twenty (20) to thirty 6 (30) --" 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: "There are numerous vehicles arriving 9 in this -- at this area. Trunks were 10 being opened and pieces of wood and 11 rock were being stockpiled." 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: I take it the stockpiling was inside 14 the Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the cars were inside the Park? 17 A: Some were, some weren't. Like I told 18 you, a few had -- 19 Q: One (1) -- 20 A: Yeah, one (1) had came out. 21 Q: One (1) had come out? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- but the -- the cars that you 24 referred to, except for the one, were inside the Park? 25 A: Yes.
2431 Q: And is it fair to say that the fire 2 was inside the Park? 3 A: Yeah, like I said, that night when I 4 -- when I seen it, it appeared to be outside. In 5 retrospect today, looking back, it probably was inside 6 the Park. 7 Q: Inside the Park. And then at the 8 bottom of that page, 1794, Mr. Whelan, it says you heard 9 an officer say: 10 "Shots fired, shots fired and I heard 11 gunshots. All of these things that I 12 heard were on my radio, not with my 13 ears alone. I remained in my position 14 guarding Lima 2 until I was advised to 15 report to Forest Detachment." 16 So most of this you -- you heard the 17 communications through your headset? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: But you indicated that you heard 20 the -- 21 A: You could hear it too. 22 Q: The gun -- 23 A: Yeah, because you only had one (1) 24 ear piece, so your other ear was clear. 25 Q: So that what did you -- what kinds of
2441 noises did you hear not within -- through the -- 2 A: Gunfire. 3 Q: Gunfire. Perhaps we'll mark the next 4 exhibit, the statement, 2003957. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1246, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1246: Document Number 2003957. 8 Statement of Neil Whelan 9 taken on September 07, 1995 10 with handwritten interview 11 report attached, September 12 07, 1995. 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's my -- those are 15 my questions, Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. I think this would be a good time to take a 18 break. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would it be 21 a good time to take a break? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then we'll canvass 23 the parties when we get back. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then 25 we'll canvass the parties when we get back.
2451 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 2:55 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 3:11 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have a 11 couple more questions I understand? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner, 13 before we leave I do have a couple more questions. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: One (1) question I'm going to take 17 you back again to, the indicate at four o'clock on 18 September the 4th, Mr. Whelan, and the question is: Was 19 this incident underway when you arrived? 20 A: Which incident are you talking about? 21 Q: The one on the beach you were called 22 as backup. 23 A: I'm not sure I -- 24 Q: In your notes it's at 16:07 on 25 September the 4th.
2461 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: It's the incident at the end of 4 Matheson Drive along the beach? 5 A: Yes, it was on -- on -- it was 6 ongoing. 7 Q: It was underway when you arrived? 8 A: It was underway when we got there. 9 Q: And did you see the car with the 10 rebel plates that you described arrive or has -- was it 11 there be -- when you got there? 12 A: No, it's the car that backed up. 13 Q: And -- and it backed up from -- where 14 was it's location when it started to back up? 15 A: It was from the -- backing up from 16 the east up to the west, up to our location. 17 Q: So the -- 18 A: But when I seen it, like there was a 19 lot of -- a lot of First Nations people down there, there 20 was a lot of people walking around, so when I first 21 noticed it it was just backing up. It caught my eye. 22 Q: And it was backing up from the Army 23 Camp side of the beach towards where the officers were -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- the incident was?
2471 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to ask you a 3 couple more questions and I'd like you to go to Tab 27. 4 Tab 27 is Inquiry Document 2003739 and 5 this is a statement of John Mortimer taken on September 6 the 7th, 1995, just after your statement in -- at Tab 26 7 marked as Exhibit P-1246. 8 And Mr. Mortimer indicates that -- that he 9 was assigned with you to be part of an Oscar team and at 10 the bottom of the first page of 2003739 he says: 11 "We observed a campfire with ten (10) 12 to fifteen (15) persons around it. 13 There were six (6) to seven (7) 14 vehicles that came to the campfire and 15 turned towards the lake and Park. Some 16 of the vehicles also drove out of 17 sight. I could not hear them speaking. 18 I could not tell the age or gender of 19 these persons. I could not see any 20 objects in their possession." 21 Now he indicates he saw ten (10) to 22 fifteen (15) people around the campfire and you put the 23 number as twenty-five (25) to thirty (30). 24 A: Yeah, well, like it could have been a 25 different time period. Like I said, there was people
2481 arriving there, there was more people coming there all 2 the time, more vehicles arriving all the time. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: Like I don't know what the timeframe 5 is here when he was looking. Like we sort of took turns 6 keeping observation; one would walk -- watch for a while 7 and the other would sort of watch our own back, like, 8 what was going on around us. 9 So not -- not both of us were actually 10 watching at the same time. 11 Q: Okay. He indicates: 12 "Just after sundown, around 21:00 13 hours, Whelan and I went on a 14 reconnaissance to the area west of the 15 campground. We observed a campfire 16 with ten (10) to fifteen (15) persons 17 around it." 18 Then I read that next part, he then said: 19 "Whelan had the night vision goggles 20 most of the time. These people ran all 21 around, and after observing them from a 22 few different positions, we decided to 23 leave. I believe that I heard over my 24 radio that TRU was going to ground." 25 So when you --
2491 A: What did I say? Ten (10) to -- what 2 did I say, twenty (20) to...? 3 Q: You say twenty (20) to thirty (30) -- 4 twenty-five (25) to thirty (30). He says ten (10) to 5 fifteen (15). 6 A: Like I said, I didn't actually count 7 them, so it could have been a smaller number, it could 8 have been a larger number. 9 Q: Okay. And now with the night -- the 10 night vision goggles would give you a -- 11 A: A silhouette. 12 Q: A silhouette? And through the 13 silhouette, could you see people taking things out of the 14 trunks of the car? 15 A: You -- you could see the motion of 16 things. 17 Q: But you couldn't see -- 18 A: If it was close to the campfire, you 19 could see the things coming out back -- out of the -- out 20 of the back of the trunk. 21 Q: Of the trunk? 22 A: Trunk, yeah. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: People reaching into the trunk. 25 Q: Yes.
2501 A: Something coming out. 2 Q: So you -- what -- what you could see 3 through the night vision goggles was the silhouette of 4 the person reaching down and then coming back up -- 5 A: Coming back up. 6 Q: -- and see a silhouette. What could 7 you see of what was coming out of the trunk? You 8 couldn't actually see the actual thing, you saw -- 9 A: Well the -- the campfire was quite 10 bright so it -- it illuminated the area to somewhat that 11 you could see a bit before it got real dark. 12 Q: With your naked eye? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now when you got there at 21:00 15 hours, it was pretty dark by then? 16 A: It was dark then, yes. 17 Q: It was dark, yeah. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And so what you saw -- what could you 20 see without the night vision goggles? 21 Mortimer says you could -- you couldn't 22 see things in people's hands. 23 A: No, you -- you couldn't make out what 24 was in somebody's hand with the night vision. You -- 25 like I said, I agree, you could see people reaching into
2511 the trunk and pulling something out, sort of like in the 2 motion of dropping it, and then reaching in the trunk 3 again, and then coming out again. 4 Q: But you couldn't see what they were 5 reaching in and coming out and dropping? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And I note as well that Mr. Mortimer 8 says that, again -- and perhaps we could just give this 9 an exhibit number, 2003739. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1247, Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1247. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1247: Document Number 2003739. 14 Statement of John Mortimer 15 taken on September 07, 1995, 16 September 07, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Mr. Mortimer says, in P-1247 just 20 down the page: 21 "We returned to the Lima 2 or Technical 22 Operations command, which was a trailer 23 west of the Park, before 23:00 hours. 24 The Crowd Management Unit was being 25 deployed at the time.
2521 We then did security at the back of the 2 Technical Operations Command trailer." 3 He puts you at the back of the trailer, 4 and you have you both down by -- 5 A: Did I say both? I said I -- 6 Q: No, he said you were. 7 A: I was. 8 Q: So -- 9 A: I was out front. I don't know where 10 he was. 11 Q: So when you went out front, he wasn't 12 with you? 13 A: No. 14 Q: You separated? 15 A: Separated. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: So that when you say in your 21 statement that trunks -- and this is at Tab 26, Mr. 22 Whelan, Exhibit P-1246, Inquiry Document 2003957. 23 When you say in your statement on second 24 page: 25 "Trunks were being opened and pieces of
2531 wood and rocks were being stockpiled." 2 That's a guess on your part? 3 A: Yeah, it would be a guess. 4 Q: And -- because through the night 5 vision goggles you couldn't see that? 6 A: No, like I seen the activity, like -- 7 like people standing at the trunk for a period of time, 8 going in and out. 9 Q: But -- 10 A: I couldn't actually see the -- 11 Q: You couldn't actually see -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- and you made an assumption when 14 you gave this statement the next morning? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Now, those are my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 19 Mr. Whelan. Before I -- did you have anything you wanted 20 to add? 21 THE WITNESS: No, no thank you. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thanks. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anyone 24 have any questions for this Witness? Let's do a 25 canvassing. Just a minute while I get my list.
2541 OPP, no. I'm just looking for the OPP. 2 No. And the OPP, no. That's fine. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. McAleer...? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 I see Ms. McAleer, I'm just trying to get the sequence. 6 Yes, Ms. McAleer...? 7 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Two (2) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) 9 minutes. 10 And Mr. Alexander...? 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) to 12 twenty (20) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 14 Rosenthal...? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Twenty (20) to 16 thirty (30). 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 18 Ross...? 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Fifteen (15) to twenty 20 (20) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 22 Roy...? 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: About fifteen (15) to 24 twenty (20) minutes, Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well,
2551 there's a good chance we'll finish this afternoon. 2 There's at least an outside chance. 3 What does that add up to? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Roy, I missed Mr. 5 Roy, fifteen (15) to twenty (20)? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes, fifteen (15) to 7 twenty (20) minutes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It adds up to just a 9 little over an hour to an hour and a half. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 11 a good estimate. That's fine, let's get started and see 12 where we get to. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 15 McAleer...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 18 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Whelan. 19 A: Good afternoon. 20 Q: My name's Jennifer McAleer, and I'm 21 one of the lawyers who's acting for the former premier, 22 Mike Harris. 23 You indicated in response to a question by 24 Mr. Millar that you recalled that there were a couple of 25 straggler campers in the Provincial Park in the evening
2561 of September 4th. 2 If you go to your notes for September 4th 3 at 20:45. 4 A: Do you know what tab that's at or...? 5 Q: I believe that Tab 14. Tab 13. 6 A: 13? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Do you have that, Constable Whelan? 11 A: No. No, at what page? 12 Q: It's your notes for September 4th, 13 it's the bottom of page 6 at 20:45. 14 A: Got it. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: "20:45, returned to the main gate 19 area. Assisted in removal of some of 20 the members of the public." 21 Q: And is that the reference to the 22 campers? 23 A: It is. 24 Q: Thank you. You also indicate in your 25 evidence, with respect to the chronology of what had
2571 happened, that matters had been, for a period of time, 2 quite peaceful, didn't seem like anything was going to 3 happen. 4 It started to get dark and then Judas 5 George came out of nowhere with a piece of wood, smashed 6 the window of the cruiser, and then people began to throw 7 flares. 8 I just want to revisit that chronology, 9 because I -- I want to put it to you that people actually 10 started to throw flares and then Roderick George is -- 11 who you know as Judas George, then broke the cruiser 12 window. 13 And I think if you look at your notes 14 you'll see that that is, in fact, the order of events, if 15 you stay with your notes, but go to 21:00 hours, page 7. 16 A: Yes, I'm here. 17 Q: And Mr. Millar took you to this 18 reference with respect to the flare. 19 A: Yes. Okay, by my notes that's -- 20 yeah that's the order it did happen then. 21 Q: Right. And then at 21:27 you have 22 the reference to Mr. -- 23 A: That's when the window gets smashed 24 out. 25 Q: Right. Does that help refresh your
2581 memory? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you agree that's the chronology 4 of the events? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you then left the Park, 7 pursuant to Sergeant Korosec's order, did you understand 8 that you were leaving the Park in order to avoid any 9 further confrontation with the First Nation people? 10 A: Yes. If -- if we had of stayed, 11 there's no doubt in my mind there would have been a -- a 12 lot -- a lot of violence. 13 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar had asked you 14 how many OPP officers were present when Mr. Roderick 15 George broke the cruiser window, and you indicated there 16 was approximately fifteen (15). 17 Do you recall how many First Nation people 18 were present at that time? 19 A: No. By then it was dark and I 20 couldn't tell how many was there at that point. 21 Q: Is it fair to say you were 22 outnumbered? 23 A: Probably were. 24 Q: Thank you. Those are all of my 25 questions.
2591 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Ms. McAleer. 3 Mr. Alexander...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Whelan. 9 A: Good afternoon. 10 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 11 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 12 several members of the George Family, including Sam 13 George who's sitting here beside me. 14 I just have a few areas I want to very 15 briefly canvas with you. Now the first one I want to 16 talk about is, I just want to make sure I get this in my 17 head straight, because I'm a little unclear about the 18 whole issue of where you observed the fire stock or the 19 gun butt. 20 And I just want to make sure I've got it 21 right as to what your evidence is on that. 22 Now as I understand it, you would have 23 been at the north end of Matheson Drive at the beach, 24 providing cover for officers where there was an incident 25 going on at that point. Does that sound right?
2601 A: That's correct. Just where the road 2 comes down, okay, it comes onto the beach, Matheson 3 Drive, okay? 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: We were just -- just in that area 6 there. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Maybe twenty (20) feet in. 9 Q: Twenty (20) feet in. And then the -- 10 so then -- then there's the second car which would have 11 been on the east side of the beach on Army Camp Road, 12 backing in? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And then it stops and then you -- and 15 then that's where you observed your -- you outlined the 16 sequence of events that happened at that point. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Okay. Now I just want to ask you a 19 few questions very quickly about that. Now you indicated 20 that that was about fifty (50) feet away. Does that 21 sound correct? 22 A: Forty (40), forty-five (45) feet. 23 Q: I -- I have it noted down as fifty 24 (50) from your chief, so. 25 A: Somewhere in that area. It was
2611 between forty (40) and fifty (50) feet. 2 Q: Okay. And how long did you see what 3 you believed to be a gun stock or fire stock -- firearm 4 stock? 5 A: Split second. 6 Q: So it was like a very brief glimpse, 7 fraction of a second, kind of thing. 8 A: Very. 9 Q: And the only people in that area were 10 the two (2) Natives who were associated with that car? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And everybody else was in your area, 13 on that side? 14 A: They were milling around. Like they 15 were, you know, here and there, everywhere. Like I said, 16 a lot of the First Nation people had come down. And at 17 that point there were people everywhere, really. 18 Q: Were there any other officers who 19 would have likely seen the gun stock? 20 A: No, because the officers that were 21 dealing with the -- the car were quite occupied. I told 22 Constable Japp, who was beside me at that point. But at 23 that point the -- the First Nation person had removed his 24 hands from the trunk. 25 I made him aware of the vehicle and what I
2621 had seen. 2 Q: So you informed Constable Japp, but 3 you didn't inform anybody else at that point -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. The reason why I'm asking that 6 is we -- I've taken the opportunity and reviewed 7 Constable Japp's statement and notes. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And there's no mention in his 10 statement or notes of that incident. So I want to be 11 fair to you and say that it's not there -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- and check if that changes your 14 evidence. 15 A: Well I can't say what his notes say, 16 but I did make him aware of the vehicle. I made him 17 aware that that's what I had seen and that I thought 18 there was a firearm in the trunk of that vehicle. 19 Q: And the other thing that you said was 20 you were not clear as to whether or not it was an actual 21 stock or in a case. 22 So you're not entirely sure what you 23 actually might have seen in that trunk; is that correct?. 24 A: I'm clear that it was a stock or the 25 -- the butt of a firearm.
2631 Q: But you only saw it for a split 2 second from forty (40) to fifty (50) feet away? 3 A: I agree with you. 4 Q: Now, would you agree with me that 5 viewing a firearm in these kinds of incidents is 6 something significant that you would expect officers to 7 note in their notes? 8 A: I agree with you, I -- I made an 9 incident report of it. 10 Q: And would you expect officers you 11 informed of such a thing to make a similar note in their 12 book? 13 A: Well, I can't say what another 14 officer's going to do, I mean -- 15 Q: I -- 16 A: -- I make an incident report or I 17 tell somebody about a report, or about an incident, and 18 what they do is up to them. 19 Q: Yeah. And I'm -- to be clear I'm 20 just asking what your reason -- what your expectation 21 would have been. I -- you obviously can't into the -- 22 A: I would have -- yeah, I would take it 23 somebody would have, you know, made an incident -- made a 24 report of it or told somebody else about it. 25 Q: And the only person you told was
2641 Constable Japp, you didn't yell anything -- 2 A: I told -- I told Sergeant Korosec 3 too. 4 Q: But that was later, after -- 5 A: That was later, yeah. 6 Q: That was later, after the incident; 7 significantly later? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And just to tie off that area, 10 do you have any idea approximately when you would have 11 made your notes during that period, for that day, about 12 that incident? 13 A: Probably later that -- that night 14 after everything, because it got quite busy later on so I 15 wouldn't have had time to make notes probably 'til later 16 that night. 17 Q: So you're thinking like -- like once 18 you got back to the Command Post and you were in the 19 debriefing situation? 20 A: Probably. 21 Q: So it would have been several hours 22 later? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I want to move ahead a little bit 25 now, still on September the 4th, and I -- you mentioned
2651 several confrontations or interactions that you had with 2 the occupiers in the Park. 3 And in several of those incidents you 4 indicated that -- that you were told you're trespassing. 5 Does that sound familiar? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I wanted to ask you, did you ever 8 hear words to the effect of or the actual words of, This 9 is our land or get off our land? 10 A: Probably something along that line, 11 maybe not exactly those words. 12 Q: But your heard something to those -- 13 something to -- 14 A: Some -- 15 Q: -- that effect? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you recall if the people who said 18 those words appeared to honestly believe them? Again 19 this is just your -- what you observed. 20 A: No, I couldn't say to that. 21 Q: I'm now going to move ahead two (2) 22 days. I'm going to move ahead to -- hold on one (1) 23 second. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2661 Q: Another question is with respect to 2 the interactions that you were having with people. Did 3 anybody tell you anything about there was a burial site 4 in the Park? 5 A: No. Nobody every mentioned it to me. 6 Q: Now is that you don't recall or -- 7 A: No, never. 8 Q: -- you're absolutely sure? 9 A: During the whole course it wasn't -- 10 I never found out that there actually was a burial site 11 or possibly a burial site 'til after the incident. 12 Q: I'm going to -- 13 A: It was never mentioned to me or 14 anybody else that I know of in our group. 15 Q: There's been evidence on that issue 16 and I'm not going to concern you with that. I think 17 that's something we'll leave for the Commissioner to look 18 at, in that context. 19 I'm going to move ahead now to the morning 20 of September 6th with the picnic table removal. It's a 21 very simple question I have for you on that. 22 We've had entered into evidence as Exhibit 23 P-66, on that is a DVD with a short clip of a couple of 24 minutes that are shown from there, which appear to be 25 prior to the picnic tables being removed and -- and after
2671 the picnic tables were removed. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: I'm just curious, do you recall 4 anybody recording the removal of the picnic tables? 5 A: You mean the first day or the -- the 6 second day when they actually were removed? 7 Q: It would have been the morning of the 8 6th, when the picnic tables were actually removed. 9 A: I don't -- no, I don't recall it 10 being recorded. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: It's possible, but I don't recall. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall being recorded 14 the evening the night before, with the -- with what was 15 going on on the 5th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: The last area I want to explore with 18 you is the whole issue of the evening of September 6th, 19 and that was the actual location of the fire. 20 Now, Mr. Millar's taken you to a couple of 21 transcripts where you indicated that the fire was outside 22 the Park. And -- but you accept today, we've had 23 evidence from the occupiers and I anticipate there will 24 be evidence from officers as well, that the fire was 25 actually inside the Park.
2681 You -- you do accept that -- 2 A: Yeah. I do accept that I -- I could 3 have made a mistake that night. 4 Q: In your view, was the location of 5 where the fire was significant when you were making that 6 determination that evening? 7 A: Did I think it was -- was it -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: No. No. I had no knowledge that it 10 -- it had any insignificance (sic) to -- 11 Q: The reason why I'm asking that is in 12 Tabs 27 and 28, which are Exhibits P-1246 and 1247, which 13 are your statements, the statements of both you and 14 Constable Mortimer -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- neither of you talk about the 17 location of the fire. You just simply said there was a 18 campfire and people around it. So this is the -- I want 19 to be clear that -- whether or not you thought there was 20 any significance about the location of the fire when you 21 were asked about where the fire was. 22 A: Yeah. No. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2691 Q: And I just want to be clear about 2 some of your other observations that you had that night. 3 Even though you were inaccurate about the fire, you were 4 able to see that certain sections of the fence were 5 down -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- correct? You were able to see a 8 car come out to the sandy parking lot that evening, 9 correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were able to observe the fire 12 by the naked -- by your naked eye that evening? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you have any idea how far you 15 would have been from the fire at that point, given your 16 location? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No? 19 A: I couldn't tell. 20 Q: Thank you, Constable Whelan. I have 21 no further questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 Mr. Rosenthal...? 25
2701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Good 4 afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Officer. My name is 10 Peter Rosenthal -- I didn't do that. But what I will do 11 is examine you on behalf of Aazhoodena and George Family 12 Group, a group of Stoney Point people. 13 I want to go right away to the picnic 14 table incident on the evening of September 5th. 15 As I understood your evidence there was 16 nobody in charge of the officers on that evening during 17 that operation; is that correct? 18 A: No, there was not. 19 Q: So did any officer give you any 20 instructions whatsoever as to what you should do on that 21 evening, or what you were doing on that evening? 22 A: No. 23 Q: At the maximum there were, what, six 24 (6) or eight (8) officers present? 25 A: Yeah, somewhere around that, six (6)
2711 to eight (8). I think there was three (3) to four (4) 2 cruisers, two (2) to a cruiser. Yeah, there would be 3 between -- between eight (8) and ten (10) officers down 4 there at that time. 5 Q: And you and your partner were the 6 first to arrive; is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then all the officers left more 9 or less at the same time, did they? 10 A: Left? 11 Q: When you left that evening, after, at 12 the end of the incident, you left that -- 13 A: Yeah, everybody left at the same 14 time. 15 Q: At the same time? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And so how did that occur? Did 18 someone say, Let's get out of here, or what? 19 A: Yeah. It was getting quite dangerous 20 down there and we felt that it was time to get out of 21 there. 22 Q: You just seemed to individually all 23 feel that more or less at the same time, there wasn't 24 anybody who said, It's time for us to leave? 25 A: I don't actually recall, you know,
2721 what -- what took place. I -- somebody might have said 2 something and then everybody just got in their cars and - 3 - and left. 4 Q: Now you told us that you saw several 5 officers with canisters of pepper spray out; is that 6 correct? 7 A: I did. 8 Q: And who were those officers, sir? 9 A: I don't know. I don't remember who 10 they were. 11 Q: You don't remember any of them? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And did you observe them actually 14 spraying pepper spray? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: What was -- well, did you 17 particularly remember that Officer Gransden had pepper 18 spray, sir? 19 A: There were certain officers that had 20 pepper spray, I don't know which ones actually had it, 21 like, canisters of pepper spray. 22 Q: And what was your understanding at 23 the time, sir, as to when it was appropriate for an 24 officer to take out a canister of pepper spray? 25 A: In defence, as a use of force, other
2731 than using physical force, to restrain somebody, somebody 2 spitting at you. 3 Q: Somebody spitting at you -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- you were supposed to respond with 6 pepper spray? 7 A: That's an assault. Rather than use 8 another force of an assault or another level of assault 9 or use of force, a baton or something like that. 10 Q: So your understanding was that if 11 someone spit at you it was appropriate to take out a 12 cannister -- 13 A: Well if somebody spit at me I would 14 arrest them for assault. 15 Q: Anytime you're arresting someone for 16 assault it was appropriate to bring out a cannister of 17 pepper spray? 18 A: If they -- if there was a 19 confrontation, yes, like a physical confrontation in the 20 arrest, subduing them. 21 Q: Was pepper spray regarded by you, 22 sir, as a more or less serious use of force than a baton? 23 A: It's a -- it's a less use of force. 24 Q: I'm sorry? 25 A: A less.
2741 Q: Less than a baton? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I see. Thank you. Now, the -- your 4 pushing the cruiser against the picnic tables, that was 5 your decision to do that then, I gather? 6 A: It was. 7 Q: And you say that there were three (3) 8 or four (4) piled up and you pushed against them with 9 your cruiser? 10 A: Yeah, I -- I nudged up -- the cruiser 11 has push bars at the front. Did you ever see a cruiser 12 that has these bars? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: They're actually designed to push 15 vehicles off the roadway, like on the 401 or any other 16 access where a vehicle's broken down and has to be 17 removed. So I brought the bars up right in close to the 18 tables so they were snug, and then I just slowly pushed 19 the tables around to the left so there was enough room so 20 we could get through. 21 Q: You did that for the purpose of 22 allowing your cruiser to drive through? 23 A: No, for all the officers to get 24 around so we could get tables removed from the other 25 side.
2751 Q: But the way you drew the diagram the 2 -- it would appear there would be plenty of room for 3 officers to walk around, right, on both sides of the 4 picnic tables? 5 A: Well, they could -- yeah, they could 6 -- yeah, they could go around if they wanted to, yeah. 7 We were sort of staying in a close-knit group for safety 8 purposes. 9 Q: Yeah, but why were you pushing the 10 tables? What -- what were you trying to accomplish by 11 pushing those tables? 12 A: To get to the other side, because we 13 were pulling tables off this side; they were throwing 14 them back onto the other side. So it was -- we couldn't 15 -- we couldn't get the tables apart. 16 Q: Well, perhaps -- perhaps you could 17 step up to the diagram that you drew and tell me what 18 side is what side there? Where -- where were you trying 19 to go and how were you going to be assisted by pushing 20 the tables? 21 A: Well -- 22 Q: Sorry, you need -- you need to carry 23 the microphone with you, sir, so we can hear. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2761 A: Yeah, well, we were trying to get 2 around to this side so that the officers could get in and 3 pull the tables off of -- of these piles from this -- 4 from both sides. 5 Q: So you're suggesting you were trying 6 to get around to, as you face the diagram on the right- 7 hand side -- I'm just trying to describe it for the 8 record, sir -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- from the left-hand side of -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- of the line that you drew. 13 A: So it worked both sides. Right at 14 this point we were only on this side and the First 15 Nations people on this side -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- and they were throwing tables on 18 as quick as we were pulling them off. 19 Q: So you -- 20 A: And I felt that if we got around this 21 side, got a spot, we could get in here. Plus the fact 22 once we got around here, most of the First Nations people 23 went back, so that stopped them from throwing tables back 24 on. 25 Q: So you -- you were pushing the tables
2771 towards the First Nations people and away from the 2 officers, as you described it, right? 3 A: Well, I wasn't pushing the tables 4 towards anybody, not towards the First Nations people. 5 Q: Well, you -- you said -- 6 A: There was nobody -- 7 Q: -- the First Nations people were on 8 the right-hand side. 9 A: There was nobody near the tables I 10 was pushing. 11 Q: How far away were they from the 12 tables you were pushing? 13 A: They were back -- back in this area 14 here. 15 Q: Now in other words, you're saying 16 they were -- you were going in their direction but they 17 were back -- back several feet behind where you were 18 pushing -- 19 A: Yeah, I was going in their direction 20 but they were ten (10) to fifteen (15) feet away from me. 21 Q: They were ten (10) to fifteen (15) 22 feet to the right-hand side of the line that you -- 23 A: There's no way, like, the tables or 24 the vehicle was any hazard to any of the people back 25 there, there was nobody near me.
2781 Q: Well if they were ten (10) to fifteen 2 (15) feet away, why didn't you just dismantle the tables? 3 Why were you pushing with the cruiser? 4 A: Well, like I said, the reason I'm -- 5 we wanted to get back here -- that's the reason we wanted 6 to get back here, to pull the tables from both sides. 7 Q: But if they were ten (10) to fifteen 8 (15) feet away from the tables, you would have had no 9 trouble walking around or dismantling the tables? 10 A: Yeah, but if we didn't get back there 11 then they would -- they kept coming back up to the line 12 of tables -- 13 Q: But they weren't near the tables, 14 right? 15 A: Well they kept coming back up. 16 Q: Yeah. And as you were pushing there 17 were people right near the tables, right? 18 A: Not -- not near the tables, not where 19 I was, no. 20 Q: And, in fact, we had evidence from 21 some of the people that there were people on the tables? 22 A: No people on these tables. 23 Q: And you didn't think it was dangerous 24 to put -- to push a ten (10) foot high, perhaps, as you 25 told us, stack of tables in the direction of people in
2791 this kind of circumstance? 2 A: No. I took my time and like I said 3 there was no people near where I was pushing. This took 4 maybe seconds to do. 5 Q: I see. Sorry, you could have a seat 6 again, sir, thank you. 7 And you say that you think that you're 8 pushing dislodged one of the tables and fell on your 9 cruiser, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, it could have dislodged a table 12 and fallen on a human being too, right? 13 A: It could have, but it didn't. 14 Q: It didn't. I see. Now I notice that 15 in your notes you didn't record the pushing of the picnic 16 tables as far as I could see; is that correct? 17 A: I made notes. 18 Q: I'm sorry? 19 A: I made an incident report. 20 Q: Does -- does it say -- it doesn't 21 record that you pushed them with a cruiser does it or it 22 doesn't? 23 A: No it doesn't actually record that, 24 no. 25
2801 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yeah. Sorry. You -- you do say -- 4 you do say that you pushed very slowly to push the tables 5 around, right. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And -- and you said that in your -- 8 in your evidence. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: But then in your notes -- perhaps, 11 you could turn to your notes, sir. It's at Tab 13 -- 12 A: 13. 13 Q: -- pages 8 to 9. 14 A: 8 and 9? Okay. 15 Q: Pages -- at Tab 13? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Pages 8 to 9, I believe, September 18 5th. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Now it says: 21 "We pushed over the barricade." 22 Right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: It doesn't indicate you did that with 25 your cruiser, does it?
2811 A: No. 2 Q: It says "we"; right? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Suggesting that the officers together 5 pushed over the barricade, right? 6 A: I pushed over the barricade. 7 Q: But, does it say 'I' or 'we'? 8 A: It says "we" but I was the only one 9 using the cruiser. 10 Q: And it doesn't mention your cruiser 11 at all does it? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And when did you first tell somebody 14 that you used your cruiser to push the picnic tables? 15 A: Sergeant Graham, and then I made an 16 incident report of this -- 17 Q: And you told -- 18 A: -- damage -- damage to the cruiser. 19 I made an -- 20 Q: Sorry, sir? 21 A: I made a report of the damage to the 22 cruiser. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And I reported it to Sergeant Graham. 25 Q: Is that report in the materials as
2821 far as you're aware, sir? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Now, with respect to the order of 4 events here, sir, you and your partner P/C Japp arrived 5 before any other officers, right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And I would suggest to you that you 8 started to push the tables with your cruiser before any 9 other officers arrived. 10 A: No. 11 Q: That's not your evidence, right? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, sir, your partner at the time 14 was P/C Japp. I should like to show you a copy of the 15 notebook entries of P/C Japp. 16 With your indulgence, thank you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, sir, if you could turn to the 21 second last page of what I've handed you, it's at the 22 bottom right hand -- the notebook page number is page 6. 23 And these are -- this is Inquiry 24 Document -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 100502.
2831 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 100502, thank you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: Now, sir, if you could turn then to 5 page 6 of that, you'll notice at 22:15, most of the way 6 down the page, it reads, I believe, as follows: 7 "Observed Natives putting picnic tables 8 across Army Camp Road at public access 9 to beach. P/C Whelan used police unit 10 to push tables out of the way." 11 You agree -- you agree with me so far on 12 the reading, sir? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: "Observed two (2) Natives recognized 15 [and maybe I.D. or something] with 16 military, goatee and mustache pick up 17 tables and throw it onto hood of police 18 unit. Further check showed scratches 19 on hood. At this time several backup 20 units attended and Natives confronted 21 and retreated into Provincial Park." 22 Do you agree with my reading of the notes, 23 sir? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So according to the notes at the time
2841 taken by your partner, backup units only attended after 2 you were pushing the -- 3 A: Yeah. But there were other backup 4 units that had come down before that. I mean, there were 5 backup units arriving all the time. You're not sure of 6 the time frame between 22:15, that's his first entry. I 7 mean, these are his notes. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: So, I mean, between -- 10 Q: And his notes do -- 11 A: -- 22:15 and the time he sees the 12 pushing of the tables, how many other officers had came 13 down there? I -- you know, I don't know the timeframe 14 there. 15 Q: Well, his notes, as opposed to your 16 notes, do refer to you pushing the tables with your 17 cruiser, right? 18 A: And I agree, I did push the tables 19 with a cruiser. 20 Q: Yes, you agree to that. But then 21 isn't the clear meaning of this, "At this time several 22 backup units attended", isn't the clear meaning that 23 those units came after you had pushed the tables with 24 your cruiser? 25 A: Well, like I said, there were backup
2851 units arriving at different times. They didn't all get 2 there at one (1) time. 3 Q: How many backup units arrived? 4 A: I can't recall. There was at least 5 five (5) cruisers down there and they didn't all get 6 there at the same time. 7 Q: At least five (5) cruisers? 8 A: That's basically from my memory. 9 Q: And each would have at least two (2) 10 officers in it, would it not? 11 A: It would. 12 Q: So there were at least ten (10) 13 officers then? 14 A: Possibly. 15 Q: Plus you and your partner? 16 A: Possibly. 17 Q: Different from your estimate five (5) 18 minutes ago? 19 A: Well, like I said, these are his 20 notes. Like I said, all the officers never arrived there 21 at the same time. 22 Q: Okay, sir, you -- you were pushing 23 the picnic tables, you said, for the purpose that you 24 indicated and the direction you indicated and when did 25 you stop pushing?
2861 How long did you push? Until the table 2 fell on your hood? 3 A: Just seconds. 4 Q: Did you continue pushing after the 5 table was -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- on your hood? No? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Now, you told Mr. Millar originally 10 that the table fell from the pile you were pushing onto 11 your hood. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: But then I believe you agreed that 14 later on that you had said in other statements that 15 someone had thrown a picnic table, right? 16 A: It's possible. I mean, there was a 17 lot of different things happening down there at different 18 times. 19 Q: Sir, I'm concerned about the 20 consistency of your evidence. Didn't you tell Mr. Millar 21 that one (1) person threw the table by himself? 22 A: I did, yes. 23 Q: Yeah. But you originally said nobody 24 threw the table. How can you tell us, a couple hours 25 after you said, Nobody threw a table, it fell off, how
2871 can you say shortly afterward you remember someone -- 2 A: Well -- 3 Q: -- throwing a table? 4 A: -- like I said, ten (10) years ago I 5 remember one (1) table toppling off the -- the pile onto 6 the front of the cruiser. 7 Q: You were quite -- 8 A: I mean, there could have been another 9 time that a table got thrown on it when I wasn't, you 10 know, wasn't around there at that -- that particular 11 time, I don't know. 12 Q: You told Mr. Millar that you were 13 certain it was one (1) person who threw the table. Don't 14 you remember Mr. Millar asking you, Isn't that a pretty 15 heavy -- heavy table for one (1) person? 16 A: Yeah. But one (1) person could throw 17 it. 18 Q: And you said that one (1) person did 19 throw it. 20 A: Yeah. I agree with you. 21 Q: Your partner says two (2) people 22 threw it. 23 A: That's his notes. That's his 24 rendition. 25 Q: But then you told us it just fell off
2881 the pile. 2 A: Well, there were tables falling off 3 the pile too. 4 Q: So what's the truth, sir? Can you 5 take your mind back and tell us the truth as best as you 6 can tell us? 7 A: The best I can tell you from ten (10) 8 years is what I just told you. 9 Q: Is what? 10 A: Is what I just told you. 11 Q: Did it fall off, as you first told 12 us, or was it thrown? 13 A: I remember a table falling off. 14 Q: And another one thrown? 15 A: And I remember a table being thrown. 16 Q: So there were two (2) tables that hit 17 your cruiser? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that what you're telling us? 20 There were two (2) tables that hit your cruiser? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what happened to -- the first one 23 hit your cruiser? Did it fall off or stay on the cruiser 24 or what? 25 A: I don't remember.
2891 Q: Well, did the -- the tables start 2 piling up on your cruiser -- 3 A: No -- 4 Q: -- three (3) or four (4) high, sir? 5 A: -- it probably fell off. 6 MR. COMMISSIONER: I -- I'm not sure that 7 you can mine this area much more, Mr. Rosenthal. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I was going to 9 move on, but I think -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were? 11 Well, all right then, if you were then I'll just leave 12 you. I'll let you finish with it. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I think the 14 credibility issue is clear. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Now, after you finished pushing the 20 picnic tables -- you pushed them for several seconds or 21 so, sir? 22 A: Yeah, it didn't take very long. 23 Q: And then how did -- how did they end 24 up after you were done pushing them? 25 A: They were just turned around to one
2901 (1) side. 2 Q: And then what did you do? 3 A: Then officers went around behind the 4 table -- 5 Q: And then what? 6 A: -- behind the line of the tables on 7 the other side. 8 Q: And what happened then? 9 A: They started to pull tables off on 10 the other side. And some officers had pushed the First 11 Nations people, like, back towards the fence area. 12 Q: Right. And then they were -- 13 officers were re-arranging tables then, right? 14 A: Some were pulling tables off, some 15 were dealing with the First Nation people. 16 Q: And you -- did you get out of your 17 cruiser at that point? 18 A: I did. 19 Q: And what did you do? 20 A: I was pulling tables off this side, 21 the side I was on. 22 Q: Okay. And then -- then what 23 happened? 24 A: Then after a short period of time we 25 got in our cruisers and we left, because more First
2911 Nations people started coming down and we thought it was 2 time maybe we got out of there before somebody really got 3 hurt. 4 Q: Well, it was dark at this time; is 5 that right? 6 A: Yeah, it was probably getting dark. 7 Q: And perhaps you and other officers 8 recognized that any engagement of any kind in the dark is 9 more dangerous than in daylight; is that fair? 10 A: That's true. 11 Q: And, in fact, the next morning you 12 came and removed those picnic tables in a more relaxed 13 setting, shall we say, right? 14 A: We did. 15 Q: And with the benefit of daylight? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now moving to the next night then, 18 the evening of September 6th, you told us that you 19 fulfilled an observation function as part of Oscar 1, I 20 believe it was called; is that correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And then you told us that at one (1) 23 point you were instructed to go back to a house, you 24 recall when we looked at the transcript. You don't 25 recall which house that was but that was in order to meet
2921 some members of the TRU team; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And that was at about ten o'clock in 4 the evening or so, I believe? 5 A: I don't reme -- recall the exact 6 time. 7 Q: But in any event, you told us that 8 you did then follow the instructions, you went back to 9 whatever house it had been, and you did meet with members 10 of the TRU team? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And you -- in answer to Mr. Millar's 13 questions you told us you didn't recognize the members 14 because they were wearing heavy gear? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: So you weren't sure if it was -- if 17 Ken Deane was one (1) of them or not? 18 A: I didn't know who they were. 19 Q: But were there -- were there two (2) 20 such people? 21 A: Were there -- yeah, there was two -- 22 Q: You met -- you met a team of two (2)? 23 A: Two (2). 24 Q: You and your partner met someone else 25 and his partner?
2931 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And did they indicate that they would 3 go to take over the observation from you? 4 A: I don't recall really what we talked 5 about. 6 Q: There must have been some reason for 7 them wanting to meet you. 8 A: They probably wanted to know where we 9 had our position. 10 Q: They might have wanted to know where 11 your position was and -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- and to get your advice as to 14 whether that was a good position for them to be in? 15 A: Probably that's what they wanted to 16 know. 17 Q: And so as you left that discussion 18 you went back to the Tactical Operations Centre -- 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: -- and they continued back in the 21 direction that you had been, closer to the Ipperwash 22 Park? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Now, at that -- you told us at one 25 (1) point it was getting "henky" and you therefore
2941 withdrew a bit but there was no reason that you couldn't 2 have continued that observation, you and your partner is 3 that right? 4 A: Well, there was no reason we could 5 have. If we -- if we were told to stay there we would 6 have but we I just felt that if the First Nations people 7 found us where we were there would have been a 8 confrontation. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And I didn't want that. 11 Q: No, and that's why you stepped back a 12 bit? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: And at that -- at that point when I 16 believed people were looking for us I had no idea that 17 TRU was coming in the area -- 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: -- and I had no idea that the CMU 20 were going to be deployed down the road. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: So I figured it was just me and 23 Mortimer that were in there. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: So I -- you know that's the reason.
2951 I figured if -- if we were located then there would be 2 some type of confrontation and I didn't want that I -- 3 Q: Right. 4 A: -- let's get out of here. 5 Q: So if you'd been told however that 6 the CMU is coming down the road shortly and you keep on 7 observation -- observing -- 8 A: If they told us we had to stay there 9 then I would have stayed there. 10 Q: Then you would have stayed and done 11 the job? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you didn't have any rifle out 14 trained on the First Nations people when you were doing 15 this observation did you? 16 A: No, I did not. 17 Q: And you -- you and your partner 18 weren't there as snipers in any way you were there simply 19 as observers? 20 A: No, we were not trained as snipers. 21 Q: Sorry? 22 A: We were -- had no training as 23 snipers. 24 Q: No, but you were observing, not 25 sniping?
2961 A: That -- that's right, the -- the mini 2 Ruger was simply self-defence. 3 Q: Yes. Thank you. 4 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 5 Thank you, Officer. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Rosenthal. 8 Mr. Ross...? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 16 Q: Mr. Whelan, my name is Anthony Ross. 17 A: Glad to meet you. 18 Q: The pleasure is all mine and I 19 represent those living at Aazhoodena. 20 A: I beg your pardon? 21 Q: I represent those living at 22 Aazhoodena, you might know it as the Army Camp. 23 A: Oh, okay. 24 Q: Before I start, sir, there is one (1) 25 small matter that I think I would like to get your view
2971 on by way of correction. 2 I'm referring you to Exhibit P-1241 -- 3 A: Do you have -- 4 Q: -- which is the summary of the tapes 5 that was introduced today. It might be a package by 6 itself. Is that it, 1241? It appears -- 7 A: The -- the audio -- pile of the 8 tapes? 9 Q: Yes. Yes, yes. 10 A: Yeah, this is it, yeah. 11 Q: I'd like you to move in please to the 12 tape of 10 -- sorry, 22:37 on September 5. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: Logger tape 0143 track 12. You've 15 got that? 16 A: 22:37? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Down on the third entry it appears to 20 me that the response is from 2413: 21 "They are throwing some significant 22 rocks at us now at this location." 23 Then there was a question. This is the 24 way it occurs to me, hitting cruisers. And the response 25 is:
2981 "None of us have been hit yet to my 2 knowledge." 3 Is that a correction that should be made 4 to this record? 5 A: I don't understand your question. 6 Q: Well, I will try it again. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do. 8 Perhaps Mr. Roland can -- 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- Mr. Ross -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do 11 understand. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- maybe not appreciate, 13 but 2413 I think is not this officer. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 15 this officer, but -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: He's 2412. 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Resolved. Thank you 18 kindly. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 21 Q: Now, Officer Whelan, you gave 22 evidence about Roderick George, a person apparently known 23 to you as Judas George? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Now, you've been involved in matters
2991 around Ipperwash from August -- prior to August 1995, am 2 I correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: In fact, your notes under Tab 3 5 suggest involvement from July 29 to August 1 and then 6 later on from September 2 -- sorry, and at a later date 7 from sometime in September? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So this individual who you learned -- 10 you know as Judas George, where did you first know him to 11 be Judas George? 12 A: I believe it was -- I'm trying to 13 think of the officer's name -- blank. Oh, Parks. Larry 14 Parks knew a lot of the First Nations. 15 Q: So I understand, but I'm talking 16 about you and when did you first know the individual 17 Judas George? 18 A: He was pointed out to me. 19 Q: Yes, okay, he was pointed out. From 20 your notes on -- 21 A: From the -- from us, like, seeing him 22 through the course of our patrols and that. 23 Q: Well, would this have been prior to 24 the 4th of -- 4th of September? 25 A: Yes, some time through the summer.
3001 Q: Sometime during the summer. So as at 2 the 4th of September, you knew who Roderick George was, 3 Judas? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I see. So I take it, sir, that when 6 you refer to somebody as the "big, fat Indian", you 7 weren't referring to Judas George, were you, because by 8 then you knew him? 9 A: I'm not sure who I was referring to 10 that -- where is that in the notes? 11 Q: Page 4. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Of your notes. 14 A: Tab, you know what Tab that is? 15 Q: It would be under Tab 13. 16 A: 13? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Page 4? 19 Q: Page 4. Bottom, the printed "4" on 20 the bottom. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: So the 4th of September, 1995, part 23 of the last entry on the -- 24 A: No, I see. 25 Q: Yeah.
3011 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: No, if that had have been Judas 5 George, I would have recognized him. 6 Q: Yeah. Is it fair to say that this is 7 part of the police culture in which you were brought up, 8 to use terms like 'the big, fat Native'? 9 A: It could have been -- probably 10 inappropriate -- I see no -- I see nothing wrong with 11 "fat". 12 Q: Nothing wrong with fat? 13 A: It's an adjective -- it's an 14 adjective to describe a person. I wasn't using it in a 15 derogatory way. 16 Q: With respect, sir, I don't think 17 you're answering my question. I think you're trying to 18 give me another answer, and then I'll find a question for 19 it. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: I'm asking you whether or not it was 22 part of the police culture in which you practised for 23 over thirty (30) -- for around thirty (30) years, to 24 referring to people in that way, "the big, fat Native"? 25 A: No.
3021 Q: It was not part of the culture? 2 A: No. 3 Q: So then you were the aberration? 4 A: I might have made a mistake. 5 Q: I see. And then over page, page 5, 6 where you refer to him as the "large Native". 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Was that part of the culture in which 9 you practised the profession of policing? 10 A: What's wrong with the word 'large'? 11 Q: Sorry, sir, I am not here to answer 12 your questions. If you don't want to answer it, tell me, 13 I'll ask the Commissioner. 14 Was it part of the culture that you worked 15 in -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: I see. Then how do you account for 18 the fact that you had put in your reports descriptions of 19 this nature? 20 A: It's just the way I described the 21 person. It had nothing with -- anything to do with my 22 feelings towards him that's just the way I described him. 23 Many times, many suspects I see on the 24 road, if I seen a suspect, a robbery, I mean an 25 individual. Large individual, a fat individual. It's
3031 got nothing to do with my police culture. It's a 2 description of a suspect. 3 Q: Sir, you've already told it was not 4 part of the culture. You've already told me that the 5 culture is one (1) thing but you put it another way. 6 Now would anybody have seen these -- these 7 notes of yours? 8 A: Probably a lot of people. 9 Q: Any superiors would have seen these 10 notes? 11 A: I can't say who seen them. 12 Q: You said probably a lot of people. 13 Like who? 14 A: I don't -- I don't know who seen my 15 notes. 16 Q: Sorry, sir, but you just told me 17 probably a lot of people. And I'm just asking -- 18 A: Well in the course -- in the course 19 of this Inquiry, probably a lot of people have gone 20 through my notes, yes. 21 Q: Okay, fine. I -- 22 A: I don't know. I don't know who went 23 through my notes or who has seen them. 24 Q: Around September 1995, around the 25 time that these notes were made, would any superior
3041 officer have had an opportunity to see them? 2 A: I have no idea. 3 Q: Okay. A little broader general 4 question. What happens to notes after police make them? 5 Are they just put in a -- 6 A: They stay -- they stay in my -- my 7 possession, okay? 8 Q: I see. 9 A: Until I -- until I retire and then 10 they go to a general headquarters and they're -- and 11 they're kept in storage. 12 Q: I see. So -- 13 A: So unless -- unless a supervisor 14 picked up my notebook and read it, nobody would know that 15 was in there. 16 Q: And have you ever had an opportunity 17 -- occasion where a supervisor picked up and read your 18 notebook? 19 A: I don't know. It's ten (10) years 20 ago. 21 Q: I'm not asking about these particular 22 notes, sir. You just told me that the notes would be 23 there and they'll be private -- 24 A: As far as I can remember, nobody read 25 my notes.
3051 Q: So this idea of a supervisor picking 2 up and reading your notes, that's just something that -- 3 A: They can -- that's part of their job, 4 they can do that. They can ask to see -- 5 Q: So that -- 6 A: -- my notes. 7 Q: Are you finished? 8 A: Sure. 9 Q: Yeah. Has any supervisor ever asked 10 to see your notes on any occasion? 11 A: Could you narrow that down? Like 12 when? 13 Q: On any occasion, sir. 14 A: Yes. Many times over the course of 15 my career in thirty (30) years, sergeants, inspectors, 16 superintendents have asked to see my notes and read them. 17 Q: I see. And in spite of the fact that 18 you knew that sergeants, inspectors or somebody could 19 read your notes, you're still using the descriptions that 20 you did use? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I see, thank you. But you would also 23 ask the Inquiry to accept that this was not a general 24 police culture? 25 A: No.
3061 Q: I see. Now from your notes on the -- 2 Tab 13, you were involved in this Ipperwash situation for 3 the better part of the month of September, your notes 4 from September the 2nd to September the 22nd? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes. And after the incident on -- on 7 September the 6th, I take it, sir, that you were still 8 located down in the Ipperwash area? 9 A: We -- we left shortly after the 10 morning of the 6th. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: After we were debriefed, we left the 13 area. 14 Q: And you never went back to the area? 15 A: Never. 16 Q: Now I take it, sir, that there would 17 have been police investigations of the allegations of -- 18 of gunshots being fired at the police. 19 Did you hear of such allegations? 20 A: Yes, I did, yeah. 21 Q: And my understanding is that if the 22 police are on one (1) side down by Matheson Drive, on the 23 -- on the west side of Army Camp Road, and people are on 24 the east side of Army Camp Road firing towards the 25 police, if they're going to hit anything, it's over on
3071 the police side rather on their side. 2 Does that make sense to you? 3 A: I don't know. I wasn't there. 4 Q: I know you -- I'm just asking you, 5 sir, I'm suggesting to you, sir, that you know and I'm 6 suggesting that you're trying not to answer my questions. 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: I'm saying to you as a police 9 officer. 10 A: I don't know. I wasn't there, I 11 don't know. 12 Q: Sir, I'm not suggesting for a minute 13 you were there I'm asking you a simple -- have you ever 14 fired -- have you ever fired a gun? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you agree with me that the 17 bullets tend to go more in a straight line rather than go 18 and come back? 19 A: Could you repeat that again? 20 Q: Do you agree with me that the bullets 21 continue going in the direction that they are fired 22 rather than coming back? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So then if the members -- if 25 the occupants are on one (1) side and the police are on
3081 the other, if there are shots fired by the occupants 2 they'll go in the general direction of the police, 3 correct? 4 A: Possibly, yes. 5 Q: Yes, possibly? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And over the area you had a number of 8 police with shields, right? 9 A: You're talking about stuff that I 10 would -- I had nothing to do with. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 12 where this is going -- 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: This is not an issue -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and how 15 this is -- 16 THE WITNESS: I wasn't -- I wasn't there 17 that night. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: An officer who was 20 there. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he's not 22 involved in that. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: He wasn't there at all. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not 25 involved. The questions are --
3091 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Ross, if he has some 2 questions -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not the 4 witness to ask, Mr. Ross. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- he should be asking 6 somebody quite different -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They may be 8 useful questions but not of this Witness now. Please 9 move on. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, it 11 was just a common sense question -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I've 13 got common sense. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- maybe this is the 15 wrong witness to ask. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 17 need this Witness to give me -- 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay. That's fine, 19 Mr. Commissioner, -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- any help 21 with matters. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Ross doesn't have to 23 abuse the Witness -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- by saying -- it's the
3101 wrong witness to ask the common sense question -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, no, 3 that's fine. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: He doesn't have to 5 behave -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on, 7 Mr. Ross. 8 MR DERRY MILLAR: It would be helpful if 9 people didn't make editorial comments. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's 11 move on, Mr. Ross. You indicated you would be fifteen 12 (15) to twenty (20) minutes; you're about fifteen (15) 13 now, so I'm just wondering -- 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 16 to rush you, you haven't been here for a long time. I 17 want to give you a chance. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And I don't want to 19 play catch-up either -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 21 give you a chance to finish you examination. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Sir, further in your notes it appears 25 as though looking at three (3) pages in under Tab 13 --
3111 A: 13? 2 Q: -- under Tab 13 page number 3 in your 3 book -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- at 12:23 there seems to have been 6 a pointing out of Dudley George -- 12:33. 7 A: Yeah, I'm looking at it. Yes. 8 Q: So someone is pointing Dudley George 9 out to you, am I correct? 10 A: I'm not sure what went on there it 11 looked like we might have been in the Park and the car 12 might have been being driven along Matheson Drive area by 13 the look of it: 14 "Left the beach, back down Matheson 15 Drive." 16 So it appears probably the -- the vehicle 17 came along the -- Matheson Drive along the Park. I was 18 probably inside the Park at the time. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: The actual -- I mean the Ipperwash or 21 the -- the Provincial Park. 22 Q: And did you know Dudley George prior 23 to this date? 24 A: I can't really say. 25 Q: I see. And then, sir, I ask you to
3121 turn over to page numbered "5" at the bottom still under 2 Tab 13. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Now, these notes, I take it that 5 these notes were made either at the time of the incident 6 or fairly shortly thereafter? 7 A: Probably shortly after. 8 Q: Shortly after? So that when on this 9 page you say I saw -- when you say I saw the butt of a 10 rifle, that's a very definite statement? 11 A: It is. 12 Q: Yeah. Now, my understanding is that 13 any one (1) of these long guns are made up of three (3) 14 portions, what they call as I understand the lock, the 15 stock, and the barrel, am I correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Yeah. And the -- the stock is the 18 butt section, am I correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Yeah. So I'm going to suggest to you 21 that by seeing the butt you couldn't conclude that it was 22 a rifle, am I right with that? 23 A: Well, usually a butt or a stock is 24 attached to a rifle. 25 Q: Fine. So you are really saying that
3131 because you saw the stock you concluded correctly that it 2 was a rifle? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I see. And you were sure that it was 5 a rifle? 6 A: I was -- I was sure in my own mind 7 that there was a firearm in that trunk. 8 Q: I see. And then if you look under 9 Tab 14 -- there sir, a little more than the middle of the 10 first -- the second paragraph. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: It says: 13 "The car had the trunk up. Two (2) 14 Natives were standing directly behind 15 the car." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "One (1) of the Natives -- " 18 A: One (1) Native. One (1) Native was 19 behind the car. 20 Q: Sorry. You said you had two (2) male 21 Natives were standing directly behind the car. That's 22 what's written here. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Were there two (2) or one (1)? 25 A: Two (2).
3141 Q: Okay Then you say: 2 "One (1) of the Natives reached inside 3 the trunk of the car." 4 So far, so good? 5 A: True. 6 Q: "He appeared to attempt to remove a 7 rifle from the trunk." 8 Now this is an overreach, isn't it? 9 A: An overreach of what? 10 Q: I'm going to get to it, sir. I 11 promise you I'm going to get to it. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, but be fair to say 13 he's got to read the next lines. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I will read both of 15 them together. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 18 Q: It says here, "he appeared to remove 19 a rifle from the trunk." 20 And then you go on to say: 21 "I observed a butt of what appeared to 22 be a rifle." 23 So what I'm suggesting to you, sir, is 24 when you made your notes, you're saying definitely it's a 25 rifle, and when something is being -- when you're giving
3151 -- and some time later when the typed up document was 2 prepared, you're -- you're softening your position and 3 say, "what appeared to be a rifle". 4 A: Well, like I said, this document -- I 5 don't know who typed it. 6 Q: I see, sir. 7 A: I didn't type it. 8 Q: So you prefer to rely on your own 9 notes? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, still under Tab 13, over to page 16 number 10 at the bottom. Now, we are now looking at the 17 events of Wednesday, September the 6th, 1995. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, on -- on one (1) of the 20 exhibits, you identified where you were down at the 21 cottage at the extension of Army Camp Road. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Yes. And you were down there after 24 dark, am I correct? 25 A: That's correct.
3161 Q: And you had been down at the -- at 2 the Park before and you had had experiences with the 3 occupants; am I correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Including a situation where, as you 6 claim, they were throwing stones at your vehicle? 7 A: That night? 8 Q: No, prior. 9 A: Oh, prior to? 10 Q: Yes, prior to this. 11 A: Oh, yeah, yes. 12 Q: And without going to the record, my 13 recollection is that your evidence was that for all 14 intents and purposes, it was ineffective because you were 15 out of range for them -- for the stones to reach you? 16 A: I believe that evidence was from 17 somebody else. 18 Q: Well, okay. I -- but I'll ask you, 19 is it consistent with your recollection, that you were 20 sufficiently far away when they were throwing stones some 21 time earlier that it was not really a problem? 22 A: You mean when -- when me and Japp 23 were down on the road? 24 Q: Perhaps I should find -- 25 A: I'm not sure. I've lost where you
3171 are. 2 Q: That's all right sir, that's all 3 right. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: A minute, please 5 Commissioner. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 10 Q: Going back, sir, to Exhibit 1241, the 11 logger tape. 12 A: Oh, the TOC tape? 13 Q: Yes, sorry. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: And at 10:29 p.m. 16 A: Okay. September 5th? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: 1995? 19 Q: Around five (5) lines down, there's a 20 "Lima, 10-4" and then 2412; is that you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: "Is this -- can we have some 23 assistance down here they're throwing 24 rocks at us?" 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Stuff at us.
3181 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: What? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Stuff at us. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 5 Q: Sorry, throwing stuff at us? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: What stuff was being thrown at you at 8 that time? 9 A: I beg your pardon? 10 Q: What stuff was being thrown at you at 11 that time? 12 A: Probably rocks. 13 Q: I see. Now, was there any damage as 14 a result of the rocks that were thrown on that occasion? 15 A: I can't recall. 16 Q: I see. Would you agree with me, sir, 17 that if what you're facing is some occupants throwing 18 rocks the police are in a much better position to see the 19 rocks and see where they're from in the day than in the 20 night? 21 A: Oh, of course. 22 Q: Yeah. And then, sir, based on the -- 23 the perceived threat, the threat that you saw from your 24 personal knowledge which was rocks, wouldn't it have been 25 better to have this operation to re-take the Park in the
3191 day rather than in the night? 2 A: I wasn't trying to re-take the Park. 3 You said to re-take the Park? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I wasn't in no attempt to re-take the 6 Park that night. 7 Q: Trying to keep the people in the 8 Park? Why was it necessary to -- 9 A: I wasn't trying to keep the people in 10 the Park there was picnic tables on the roadway. As far 11 as I was concerned it was a public -- a public threat. 12 The -- the picnic tables were on the roadway. It was a 13 threat to the public. I'm a police officer in the 14 Province of Ontario I'm supposed to do something about 15 it. 16 Q: Okay, sir, perhaps you could help us 17 then. When you say, "on the roadway," do you mean in the 18 sandy parking lot? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Right here on the roadway. There 23 were picnic tables here on the roadway and that was a 24 public roadway. 25 Q: I see. So the whole purpose was
3201 keeping the roadway clear? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: I see. And the efforts that you were 4 part of on the night of September the 6th, 1995, was 5 merely to keep the roadway clear as you understood it? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, he's talking about 7 -- THE WITNESS: What are you talking 8 about? I don't know -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's-- 10 THE WITNESS: You're losing me here. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: In fairness to the 12 Witness -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's 14 not -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Mr. -- Mr. Ross has 16 been talking about the picnic table incident on the 17 evening of September 5th. 18 THE WITNESS: He's been all over the 19 place. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: September 21 the 5th. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS:
3211 Q: Well, Mr. Whelan, I understand that 2 the picnic tables were removed some time on September the 3 6th; is that correct? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the 5 morning. 6 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the 8 morning. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 11 Q: Then there were no picnic tables -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- down on the roadway the night of 14 September the 6th then? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 16 That's right. 17 THE WITNESS: That's right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 19 I think you're stating the evidence correctly now. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But Mr. -- the rocks 21 that this man was talking about was -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was on the-- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- on the evening of 24 September the 5th. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a
3221 different time. You are just confusing the matter Mr. -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. -- Mr. 3 Commissioner, I understand that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Okay. 5 Well, what's the question? 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The point is that 7 there were rocks at one (1) stage. They were beyond the 8 reach. Mr. Commissioner, I'll ask no more questions. 9 Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll ask 11 no more questions? That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Ross. 12 Now, it's 4:30. We're up to Mr. Roy. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: This is my favourite 17 time of the day to get up to start asking questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 19 unfortunately you're last on the list, Mr. Roy, so that's 20 the way it works out sometimes. 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: I have some documents 22 for My Friends. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 24 MR. JULIAN ROY: I've provided a document 25 list earlier, there's --
3231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- a package for people. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 You've estimated fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes is 5 that still accurate? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I might have been a 7 little bit -- I might have underestimated slightly. I 8 would probably say the twenty (20) minutes would be on 9 the -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The twenty 11 (20) minutes? 12 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- low side. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 14 carry on. 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: And thirty (30) minutes 16 on the high side. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: Sometimes it takes a 19 little longer with transcripts but I have a copy for the 20 Witness, for yourself, Mr. Commissioner, -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- and for Counsel to 23 the Witness. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
3241 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 2 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 3 A: Good afternoon. 4 Q: My name is Julian Roy, I'm one (1) of 5 the counsel for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And before we get to the paper that's 8 just been handed to you, I want to ask some questions 9 about some of the other more mundane matters that you've 10 already been asked some questions about, I have some 11 further questions about. 12 And it's, in particular, in relation to 13 the incident that happens towards the end of the 14 afternoon on September 4th, 1995. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: You're with me? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And it's the incident with -- 19 that we've been talking about with the trunk of the car 20 and your impression that there was the butt of a rifle 21 that you saw in -- in the back of the blue Camaro. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. That's the area that I 24 want to -- I want to start with. And what I want to ask 25 you first is, you've already told us that you arrived on
3251 that scene by cruiser; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And who was it that was driving the 4 car, you or your partner? 5 A: I believe I was driving. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: But I'm not certain. 8 Q: And you would have pulled up to the 9 scene, as you've described earlier in your evidence, 10 correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And you and your partner would have 13 gotten out of the vehicle around the same time; is that 14 correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Within moments or seconds of on 17 another, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And you would have walked 20 towards the front of your cruiser; is that correct? 21 A: I believe I went around behind the 22 back of my -- the cruiser and then around to the other 23 side to the corner -- 24 Q: Okay. So -- 25 A: -- of the trunk area.
3261 Q: All right. So -- and -- and where 2 would your partner have been at this time? 3 A: I think Constable Japp was out -- up 4 about halfway between the front and the rear. 5 Q: All right. So he would have been 6 just several feet from you, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And he would have maintained that 9 position throughout the whole incident? 10 A: Not necessarily, no. 11 Q: All right. What did you observe in 12 terms of his position? 13 A: Well I wasn't watching him. 14 Q: Okay. So he may have been 15 maintaining that position throughout? 16 A: He could have been -- he could have 17 been on the other side of the car. He could have been 18 walking to the front. My job was to watch the crowd in 19 the bush in the area and that's what I was doing. I 20 really, you know, I knew Constable Japp was to my left 21 somewhere. 22 Q: So you had the impression that he was 23 a feet to your left; is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And was -- was there
3271 anything obstructing Constable Japp's view of the rear 2 area of the Camaro that you've been talking about? 3 A: No. Not that I could see. 4 Q: Okay. And in terms of the incident, 5 from the time that you arrive and the time that you 6 depart that scene, we're talking about a matter of 7 minutes; is that correct? 8 A: Well a little more than minutes. 9 Q: All right. Under ten (10) minutes? 10 A: It was somewhere around ten (10), 11 fifteen (15) minutes. 12 Q: Okay. So no more than fifteen (15) 13 minutes, but perhaps as little as ten (10) minutes; is 14 that right? 15 A: I agree with that. 16 Q: Okay. And your notes reflect that 17 you arrive there around 4:07 p.m.; is that correct? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And so that means that you would have 20 left the scene maybe as early as quarter after 4:00 and 21 maybe as late as twenty after 4:00; is that correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And then your notes reflect, and you 24 can have reference to them if -- if you'd like, they're 25 at Tab 13 and it's page 4 and 5 that we're focussing on.
3281 A: Okay. 2 Q: And you see on page 5 there's an 3 entry 16:45? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Right above there there's a reference 6 to you continuing your patrol. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that's on Matheson Drive? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. So after you leave the 11 scene at quarter after or twenty after 4:00, you continue 12 your patrol on Matheson Drive; is that correct? 13 A: It says: 14 "Patrol off of -- " 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: " -- off of Park and Matheson Ave." 17 Yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: We -- we went out, as far as I 20 remember. 21 Q: All right. You continue your patrol 22 until around 16:45 where you return to have a meeting 23 with Sergeant Korosec; is that right? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And during that twenty-five (25) --
3291 twenty (20) or twenty-five (25) minutes that you're in 2 your vehicle doing your patrol, there's a radio available 3 to you, right? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And you don't call anybody on the 6 radio about this issue, about this firearm that you say 7 that you saw, right? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And the first time that you tell 10 anybody other than your partner about you seeing a 11 firearm, is at 16:45, correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And this information about a possible 14 firearm, in this scenario, would have been very 15 significant information from the point of view of officer 16 safety, would it not? 17 A: Well, the vehicle had gone back into 18 the army camp last that we seen of it, it was heading 19 that way. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: So -- 22 Q: But you had no idea what the 23 intentions of the driver of that vehicle or those 24 individuals who were occupying the vehicle, what their 25 intentions were?
3301 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: So you had no idea as to whether or 3 not they might come into contact with other officers or 4 perhaps civilians, correct? 5 A: Correct. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And you're not aware of -- of your 10 partner, Constable Japp, using the police radio to 11 contact and circulate word about this potential firearm? 12 A: I don't remember. 13 Q: All right. Now, the other man who 14 was next to the trunk, or in front of the trunk...there 15 was two (2) gentlemen, correct? 16 A: Yeah, one (1) was to the side...well, 17 when I seen him, he was to the side of the trunk. 18 Q: All right. And your notes reflect 19 that he made some sort of hand movement of some kind, 20 correct? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And did he use both hands when he 23 made this movement? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And can you describe, give me a
3311 little bit more detail as to how he -- 2 A: A downward push. 3 Q: Okay. And for the record, you're 4 putting both of your hands about your shoulder height and 5 you're pushing down towards your waist, correct? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: So it was a fairly significant 8 movement of his hands, correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And it was plainly visible to you, 11 right? 12 A: Correct. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This area's 14 been covered by Mr. Alexander and others in some detail. 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- some aspects of it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 19 There's always some aspects that haven't been, but this 20 has been covered in some detail. 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: All right. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 24 Q: And your notes also reflect that you 25 made some sort of motion with your hands also; is that
3321 not correct? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: You -- are you talking about my 6 sidearm? 7 Q: Well, you can take a look at... 8 A: Yeah. Yeah, okay, yeah. 9 Q: All right. You see your notes? 10 A: Yeah, I had my hand on my Sig. 11 Q: Yes. You have your hand on your -- 12 on your sidearm, correct? 13 A: Yeah. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Is that correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And -- and you also say that: 20 "You make a motion to the Native. He 21 then took his hands out of the trunk." 22 Do you see that? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. So in addition to putting your 25 hand on your sidearm, you were also making kind -- some
3331 kind of motion towards the gentleman? 2 A: Yeah, we made eye contact. We were - 3 - we were staring at each other. 4 Q: Okay. The motion that you describe 5 in your notes, can you give me some detail as to what 6 motion you're making? 7 A: What do you mean, in regards to what 8 motion are you talking about? 9 Q: Well, the motion that's reflected in 10 your notes. You're trying to convey something -- 11 A: I am trying to convey to the 12 individual to leave the firearm in the trunk. 13 Q: Okay. And you're doing that with 14 your hand? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: And I'm doing that with my eyes, 18 also. We're staring at each other. I'm carrying a mini 19 ruger rifle slung across my chest. 20 Q: I see. 21 A: In a sling. 22 Q: And in doing it with your hand, the 23 motion you're trying to convey to somebody who's standing 24 forty (40) to fifty (50) feet away from you, correct? 25 A: Correct.
3341 Q: So this was a noticeable movement 2 that you're making with your hand, correct? 3 A: Yeah, I perceived what was in there 4 was a threat to me, or a threat to the other officers or 5 the First Nations people on the -- or the people in the 6 Park. 7 It -- you know, if -- if it -- the rifle 8 had or firearm had have come out of the trunk, it was 9 going to be a threat. 10 Q: All right. And what -- as you were 11 making this motion with your hand, you have the sense 12 that your partner would have been just several feet away 13 from you, to your left, correct? 14 A: I didn't -- I don't know where 15 Constable Japp was at that time. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, the note -- the notation in your 20 note, "a big, fat Native", I want to ask you some 21 questions about that, sir. 22 And you're not sure whether or not there's 23 anything inappropriate about that entry in your notebook; 24 is that your evidence as it stands presently? 25 A: That's -- that's true.
3351 Q: Okay. And the cultural sensitivity 2 training that you talked about receiving, that didn't 3 shed any light in terms of whether or not that statement 4 in your notebook is inappropriate? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, Mr. -- you were asked about 7 whether or not any -- any other senior officers have seen 8 your notes. Presumably you would have disclosed these 9 notes to a senior officer for the purpose of making 10 disclosure in the various criminal cases that arose from 11 this incident? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. So in the course of doing 14 that you would have been providing these notes to a 15 senior officer, correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And no senior officer ever addressed 18 you about your entry, "big fat Native," in your notebook, 19 correct? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Now, given that you're not sure that 22 this type of statement is inappropriate, I take it that 23 this type of language or this type of description you 24 might use regularly in connection with describing 25 Aboriginal people; is that correct?
3361 A: No. 2 Q: All right. And you might have heard 3 it used by other officers in connection with Aboriginal 4 people? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. We've heard evidence in this 7 Inquiry about an exchange between an Officer Dyke and an 8 Officer Whitehead, do you know those two (2) individuals? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Well, the exchange 11 that's -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- reported between them 14 is a -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 16 that that's -- 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: He doesn't know the 18 individuals and he hasn't heard it so -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he 20 hasn't heard it. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- you know, it's nice 22 of My Friend to try and put this out one (1) more time, 23 but it's not relevant to this Witness. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not to this 25 Witness, not to this Witness.
3371 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, what I'm -- what 2 I'm intending to do -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- Mr. Commissioner, is 5 this Witness has already been asked about a culture 6 within the OPP in terms of -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 8 questions were directed at this Witness. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And your 11 questions now, this Witness has no knowledge of or 12 involvement with, so it's too removed. 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: What I'd like to do, Mr. 14 Commissioner, is I'd like to read to this Witness certain 15 passages that have been recorded, exchanges between OPP 16 officers, to ask this Witness if he's heard any exchanges 17 of sentiment that are similar to those in order to 18 determine whether or not there is a culture, because it's 19 clear that -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- this Witness and -- 22 and my client might have a different view as to what's 23 appropriate and inappropriate, given the evidence he's 24 already given. 25 So I mean I could ask him, Have you heard
3381 anything inappropriate, but I don't think it's a very 2 informative way of going about it, given that we're not 3 going to agree on -- on definitions. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, if you 5 allow this kind of questioning there's no end to it. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 7 what I'm worried about. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: This Witness has said he 9 has no connection with these officers, he has no 10 connection with what My Friend is proposing to read, and 11 he's not said that there's any culture that he's 12 recognized that My Friend's trying to put to him. So if 13 you allow this -- this kind of questioning -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of this 15 Witness. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, all -- of -- or 17 any witness in his place -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- like this -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or any 21 witness. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- you're going to -- 23 there's no end to this. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 25 understand.
3391 MR. IAN ROLAND: There -- because there's 2 no constraint. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 4 any observation on this, Mr. Millar? Can you assist me, 5 because I don't feel that this is the appropriate witness 6 to ask these questions. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, ultimately it's 8 up to you to determine -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I'm 10 looking for some assistance. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- what's appropriate 12 and inappropriate. And it's ultimately up to you to 13 determine whether the comments that have been made by 14 others which -- some of which have already been played, 15 some of which will be played, are appropriate or 16 inappropriate or whether they -- there's -- ultimately if 17 it's argued there's a culture, as My Friend suggests, 18 it's up to you to determine that question as well, it's 19 not up to this particular Witness. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but I 21 think there's some questions you can ask him but there 22 has to be some nexus, some connection between what you're 23 asking this Witness, otherwise you can ask anything of 24 anybody, and there's no -- 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well --
3401 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- there's 2 no relationship between the questions and the Witness. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: My -- my difficulty is - 4 - is that -- that the difference that my client and this 5 Witness may have as to what's appropriate and what's 6 inappropriate, and it's very difficult for me to approach 7 this -- this -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 9 can ask him -- 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- this thorny issue 11 without -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- ask him-- 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- without giving 14 examples of -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 16 can give general examples, of course you can. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 how -- 20 MR. JULIAN ROY: Difficult -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you go 22 about doing this -- 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but I'm 25 not --
3411 MR. JULIAN ROY: Given the lateness in 2 the day, Mr. Commissioner, -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- I -- I could make 5 further submissions to you about this -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely 7 not, I want to finish right now. 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Given. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: I wasn't suggesting 11 otherwise. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: See if you-- 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: I wasn't -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: See if you 15 can find a way to put the questions -- 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that 18 aren't inappropriate. 19 MR. JULIAN ROY: I was about to suggest 20 something. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I'm not 22 anxious to open up -- 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- an area 25 that, Mr. Roland is right, has no end.
3421 MR. JULIAN ROY: I was about to suggest 2 something else, Mr. Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Well 4 let's see if you've got some -- 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: I was about to say that 6 in light of the lateness of the day, without backing off 7 of my position that canvassing this type of material may 8 be appropriate through a number of witnesses, including 9 police witnesses, I think what I'll do is I'll refrain 10 from asking or seeking to ask those questions or make 11 further submissions before you about that today and just 12 wrap up my examination. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of this 14 witness? 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: Of this witness. But I 16 don't want to be taken -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 18 what you're saying. 19 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- because I have 20 further submissions to make but I don't want to make them 21 at quarter to 5:00. And I'll have -- I may have other 22 opportunities to do that through other witnesses. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 Let's move on. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: So I just have one (1)
3431 or two (2) other questions. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 4 Q: Are you -- are you aware that there 5 was certain paraphernalia or items that were prepared to 6 commemorate the incident by certain officers of the OPP? 7 A: I heard of it, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And you've heard of the mugs 9 that were prepared in connection with this incident? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you purchase a mug? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: And there were t-shirts also prepared 14 to commemorate this incident. 15 A: There could have been. I never -- I 16 heard -- 17 Q: You didn't purchase -- 18 A: I heard cups or something along that 19 line, mostly through the media. 20 Q: Were you staying at the Pinery during 21 the incident? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And did you see anything of 24 note at the Pinery in terms of paraphernalia that might 25 be considered offensive to Aboriginal people?
3441 A: No. 2 Q: For example, you didn't see cartoons 3 posted? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And did you see a -- a 6 OPP cruiser with a bull's eye and a toy arrow stuck to 7 the side? Did you see anything like that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Those are my questions, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 12 Mr. Roy. 13 Mr. Roland...? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: Mr. Whelan, just a couple of 22 questions. And let me focus on the entry in your 23 notebook that seems to be a major topic of cross- 24 examination of you this afternoon. 25 That is, "big fat Native." And first of
3451 all, as I understand your -- the note from you -- the 2 notebook entries are there for your purposes. 3 A: They are. 4 Q: To assist you and to refresh your 5 memory. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And if there's something that's going 8 to be followed up of more consequence, that's generally 9 in some -- some reports such as an incident report? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Yeah. And you used the word -- the 12 adjectives -- two (2) adjectives 'big' and 'fat'. By 13 'fat' did you mean overweight? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Is that all you attempted to 16 communicate to yourself. 17 A: That's all -- yeah, it was just -- it 18 was just for my recognition that the individual was fat. 19 Q: And 'big', did you intend to -- 20 intend that to be tall? 21 A: Yeah, just a big person, a big man. 22 Q: Which -- because you can have someone 23 tall and thin and someone tall and overweight. So I 24 wonder what -- 25 A: Tall --
3461 Q: -- distinction you made between 'big' 2 and 'fat'. What was diff -- what was -- for your 3 purpose -- 4 A: Big to me would be -- big to me would 5 big, tall and more muscular. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Okay? 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Like if I described a suspect he was 10 big, I meant he was well built, muscular -- 11 Q: All right. 12 A: -- maybe tall. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So I would say he was, you know, big. 15 Q: And -- and you added to that 16 description 'fat' which you tell us meant also 17 overweight. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now for the -- 20 let's go to the incident concerning the gun -- the gun or 21 the butt of a gun in a trunk. 22 And I gather from your evidence that when 23 you saw the butt of what you thought was a rifle in the 24 trunk of the car, you drew the attention of Constable 25 Japp to that trunk, did you?
3471 A: I did. 2 Q: And you would have expected Constable 3 Japp, thereafter, to observe the trunk and the -- and the 4 two (2) individuals that were near the trunk. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And is it fair to say that from your 7 evidence that what you -- what you appeared to see was 8 the butt of a rifle and from that you assumed that the 9 butt was attached to a rifle. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And is that the full extent of what 12 you -- your observation was? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 16 any re-examination, Mr. Millar? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no further 18 questions, Commissioner. I'd like to thank Mr. Whelan 19 for attending today and giving his evidence at the 20 Inquiry. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much for coming and giving us your evidence. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 25 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN)
3481 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, we have another 2 witness, if you wish to start? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 4 to start a witness at ten (10) to 5:00. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I'm going 7 to call it a day and we'll start tomorrow morning at nine 8 o'clock. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 12 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday March the 30th at 9.00 13 a.m. 14 15 --- Upon adjourning at 4:50 p.m. 16 17 Certified Correct, 18 19 20 21 ____________________ 22 Carol Geehan, Ms. 23 24 25