11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 28th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 9 10 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 11 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 12 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 13 14 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 15 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 16 Jennifer McAleer ) 17 18 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 19 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 20 21 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 22 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 6 CHRISTOPHER ALLAN MARTIN, Resumed 7 8 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 9 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Ian Roland 67 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 70 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 72 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 83 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Cameron Neil 92 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 101 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 115 16 17 LARRY JOHN PARKS, Sworn 18 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 136 19 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 303 20 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jennifer McAleer 310 21 Cross-Examination by Ms. Melissa Panjer 316 22 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 321 23 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 331 24 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Katherine Hensel 25 Certificate of Transcript 343
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1200 Document Number 2005482. Video 4 monitoring log, September 05, 1995. 18 5 P-1201 Transcript of telephone conversation of 6 C. Martin - Mobile Command Unit Region 1, 7 Logger tape number 2, Track 1, Disc 2 8 of 3, 05:32 hrs. September 06, 1995. 25 9 P-1202 Transcript of telephone conversation of 10 C. Martin - Mobile Command Unit Region 3, 11 Logger tape number 4, Track 1, Disc 2 12 of 3, 01:19 hrs, September 07, 1995. 40 13 P-1203 Transcript conversation of Chris Martin 14 Mobile Command Unit , Region 4, Logger 15 tape number 4, Track 3, Disc 2 of 3, 16 05:39 hrs, September 07, 1995. 44 17 P-1204 Document Number 2004003. Statement of 18 OPP D/S David E. Maddocks. 58 19 P-1205 Document Number 2005502. General 20 Occurrence Report. September 09, 1995. 61 21 22 23 24 25
91 LIST OF EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1206 Document numbers, 2004494, 2003674, 4 2004563, 2004570, 2004578, 1000426, 5 2004580, 1000327, 2003580, 2003478, 6 2003386, 2004613, 2003616, 2003462, 7 2004624, 1000427, September 10 - 8 November 10, 1995. 69 9 P-1207 Document Number 2005556. Curriculum 10 Vitae of Larry J. Parks. 136 11 P-1208 Document number 2005572. Handwritten 12 notebook entries of Larry Parks, May 19, 13 1993 to August 31, 1995. 147 14 P-1209 Document Number 2001206. Letter to 15 Superintendent, OPP from E.B. Beacock 16 re. First Nations Occupation, CFB 17 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial Park, 18 May 21, 1993. 153 19 P-1210 Document Number 2001244. Letter to 20 Superintendent, OPP from L.J. Parks 21 re. First Nations Occupation, CFB 22 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial Park, 23 June 12, 1993. 158 24 25
101 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1211 Document Number 2001516. Letter to 4 Superintendent, OPP from E.B. Beacock, 5 re. First Nations Occupation, CFB 6 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial Park, 7 July 16, 1993. 164 8 P-1212 Document Number 2001519. Letter to 9 Superintendent, OPP from L. J. Parks, re. 10 First Nations Occupation, CFB Ipperwash, 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park, July 17, 1993 168 12 P-1213 Document number 2001520. Letter to 13 Superintendent, OPP from E. B. Beacock re. 14 First Nations Occupation, CFB Ipperwash, 15 Ipperwash Provincial Park, July 19, 1993 16 and Occurrence Report, July 17, 1993. 177 17 P-1214 Document number 2002556. Letter to 18 Superintendent, OPP from L. J. Parks re. 19 Report of gun shots by civilian, July 31, 20 1993 179 21 P-1215 Document number 2002497. Letter to 22 Superintendent, OPP from L. J. Parks re. 23 Advice from Military Police that ammunition 24 storage facility had been broken into, 25 August 21, 1993. 181
111 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1216 Document number 2002464. Letter to 4 Superintendent, OPP from L. J. Parks re. 5 First Nations Occupation, CFB Ipperwash, 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park, October 28, 7 1993. 183 8 P-1217 Sgt. Larry Parks OPP. Handwritten notes, 9 Feb. 27, 1995. 195 10 P-1218 Document Number 2003791. Handwritten ERT 11 Duty Log by Larry Parks, July 29 to 31, 12 1995. 207 13 P-1219 Document Number 2000829. Larry Parks 14 Handwritten OPP Interview Report, August 15 07 to 11, 1995. 210 16 P-1220 Document number 2000847. R.W. Bell, OPP, 17 Handwritten note, August 13, 1995. 211 18 P-1221 Document Number 2000801. Handwritten 19 Emergency Response Team Operational Report 20 - Shift from 19:00 hrs. to 03:00 hrs. Sgt. 21 Graham and PC Parks, August 19, 1995. 211 22 P-1222 Document Number 2003791. Statement of 23 L.J. Parks and Police notebook entries of 24 Larry Parks from August 31 - October 01, 25 1995, August 31 - October 01, 1995. 214
121 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1223 Document Number 2000721. OPP 4 Checkpoint Locations and Duties. 246 5 P-1224 Part 10, Police Orders, Operations. 252 6 P-1225 OPP Police Orders, Chapter 2: Law 7 Enforcement. 253 8 P-1226 Transcript of Larry Parks to Lima 2 9 at 23:42 hrs, September 05, 1995, 10 Region 01, Chatham Communications 11 Centre, Tape number 0143, Track 12, 12 Disc 12 of 20. 263 13 P-1227 Transcript of Larry Parks - Lima 1 at 14 23:46 hrs, September 05, 1995, Region 15 02, Chatham Communications Centre, Tape 16 number 0143, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 265 17 P-1228 RESERVED. 269 18 P-1200A Handwritten notes of Gatehouse Log, 19 September 05 and 06, 1995 302 20 21 22 23 24 25
131 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 11 everybody. 12 13 CHRISTOPHER ALLAN MARTIN, Resumed 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Good morning, Officer Martin. 17 A: Good morning, sir. 18 Q: We left off yesterday at page 42 of 19 your notebook. I had drawn your attention to -- I 20 believe there's a record in there of a meeting with 21 private -- Provincial Constable Blanchard and Provincial 22 Constable Ternovin and yourself. 23 A: That's correct, sir. 24 Q: Do you have any recollection of what 25 that meeting was about?
141 A: I was assigned to brief them with 2 respect to the camping detail that they will be 3 completing in the following days. 4 Q: And I take it you would have simply 5 reviewed the information that we've reviewed as of 6 yesterday that was recorded in the camper's log? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Thank you. I believe I'd asked you 9 as well whether you had some discussions with the park 10 wardens. You certainly -- or rather, they knew and were 11 aware of the undercover operation, the camping operation, 12 if I can put it that way? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Do you recall whether or not you may 15 have had any discussions with the park wardens about the 16 operational activities beyond the fact that there was an 17 undercover operation, i.e., any of the particulars of 18 what we've come to know as Project Maple? 19 A: No, sir. I wouldn't have discussed 20 any contingency planning with the park wardens. 21 Q: You've indicated that during the -- 22 the two (2) details of undercover in the Park that you 23 had not seen any firearms in the hands of any of the 24 individuals that were in occupation of the Park. 25 A: That's correct, sir.
151 Q: Just lastly on that point, was there 2 any concern, Officer, that you might have been recognized 3 given that you were certainly familiar with the area, 4 that you had served as a Member of the Ontario Provincial 5 Police in the area previously? 6 A: There was concern but that was 7 weighed in at the time the decision was made. You know, 8 part of the factor was that I did have some knowledge of 9 some of the individuals within the community and so there 10 was a balance of the two (2). 11 Q: Do you know whether or not you were 12 recognized? 13 A: Not to my knowledge. 14 Q: Can I ask you then to -- to turn to 15 the 5th of September, please. You have notes with 16 respect to the 5th of September and I understand that 17 would be then the next time that you had any involvement 18 with the Ipperwash matter? 19 A: That is correct, sir. 20 Q: Would you just refer to your notes 21 please, sir, and indicate to us what that involvement was 22 then? 23 A: Yes, sir, on the 5th of September, 24 page 64 of my notebook: 25 "7:30, advised by Detective Sergeant
161 Trevor Richardson to proceed to the 2 Grand Bend Detachment for 21:00 hours, 3 reference monitoring cameras." 4 Q: And what was that about? Tell us 5 about the monitoring of cameras? 6 A: Cameras were installed in the 7 maintenance shed and the gate kiosk at the Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park sometime in the proceeding days or weeks 9 I'm not sure when. The lines were connected through 10 phone lines to monitors at the Grand Bend Detachment. I 11 was assigned to monitor and record any activities that 12 occurred during that -- that day and -- and some of the 13 following days. 14 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 15 turn your attention please to the documents at Tab Number 16 13 firstly. It's Inquiry Document 1002419. 17 It's an excerpt from Exhibit 426 and we 18 are advised that these are scribe notes from September 19 the 5th, 1995. You'll see that it's page 45. Do you see 20 that? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Do you see the entry at 22:23 at the 23 bottom of the page? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: All right. Perhaps just before we go
171 -- go to that if you look at the entry at 22:00 hours at 2 the bottom of that entry just before the notation, "Tom 3 Bressette called". 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: "He was being monitored in Grand 6 Bend." 7 And -- and that's in reference to what 8 you've just informed us? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: Can you tell us how, beyond the fact 11 that the monitors were -- were at Grand Bend and they 12 were hooked up to phone lines, how well did this 13 technology operate? 14 A: There were difficulties with the 15 technology in that the feed or the signal or the lines 16 were irregularly interrupted resulting in no signal at 17 all at some times and loss of the ability to monitor. 18 Q: And as you're monitoring and -- what 19 are you doing insofar as what you're observing on the 20 monitors? 21 A: Maintaining a log as well, an entry 22 log as to what the activity was. 23 Q: Would you turn to Tab, 15 please. 24 It's Inquiry Document 2005482. Perhaps I'd ask that that 25 be made the next exhibit. I believe we're at P...
181 THE REGISTRAR: 1200. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: ...1200, thank you. 3 THE REGISTRAR: That's Tab 15, sir? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1200: Document Number 2005482. 7 Video monitoring log, 8 September 05, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: Are you there, Officer? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: All right. It -- it reads, 14 "Videotapes" and there's several column; tape number, the 15 date, the time and the officer. And I see that at -- on 16 September the 5th at 21:09 hours your name is recorded 17 there? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: I take it that this is simply the log 20 entry and -- and it would set out the various officers 21 that were involved in the task that you've just informed 22 us of? 23 A: Yes, that's correct, sir. This 24 portion of the log refers to the videotapes recording and 25 the times that the videotapes were switched and replaced
191 by a second tape. 2 Q: All right. And if you turn into -- 3 into the document, approximately eight (8) or ten (10) 4 pages, you see at -- at the end of that -- pardon me, it 5 is the tenth page. There's nine (9) pages of what I'm 6 going to call log entries or -- and then there's actual 7 recordings of the observations I take it. 8 Is that what that is? 9 A: That's correct, sir. The first nine 10 (9) pages would be a continuity log for the various tapes 11 that -- 12 Q: Continuity log. Thank you. 13 A: And the second is actual -- a record 14 of the observations. 15 Q: And the second part that you're 16 referring to it's entitled, Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 Occupation; it looks a number "1" at the top of that? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And are those your notations? 20 A: Yes, sir, they are. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Beyond the -- the fact that there was 25 video monitoring and apparently not working entirely or -
201 - or at least continually, was there any audio portion to 2 this? 3 A: There was no audio portion with this, 4 sir, no. 5 Q: Was the technology set up for audio 6 capability? 7 A: I honestly don't recall, sir. 8 Q: And beyond the notations that you 9 made, was there any video or -- or CD recordings of this? 10 A: Not that I'm aware of, sir. 11 Q: You weren't aware that there was a 12 video -- a VCR that was also recording that -- what was 13 on the monitor? 14 A: Oh, I'm sorry, sir. Yes, the tapes 15 were actually in the VCR. I thought you were referring 16 to a CD but the actual VCR tapes, yes were recording what 17 was happening on the monitors. 18 Q: Thank you. And was that also situate 19 in Grand Bend? 20 A: Yes, that was right with the 21 monitors, yes. 22 Q: Were you also responsible for 23 changing the video tapes? 24 A: That's correct, sir. 25 Q: Thank you.
211 A: That's what the continuity log at the 2 beginning details. 3 Q: Do you know what -- do you have any 4 idea about the -- about whether or not there were proper 5 warrants and such for these monitors? 6 A: I'm not aware of the -- any 7 authorizations or warrants that were being conducted in 8 relation to the investigation. I know that there was 9 authorizations that were ongoing. I was not part or 10 privy to that. 11 My understanding was that, pertaining to 12 these, is that they were installed prior to the 13 occupation of the Provincial Park. 14 Q: You didn't have any role insofar as 15 obtaining authorizations, warrants or any such -- 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Thank you. I'll ask you to look at 18 the -- at the log. If you go to the entry at 22:13; this 19 is a document at Tab 12 that we've just marked as Exhibit 20 1200 -- 22:23, pardon me. 21 I'm going to suggest to you that the -- 22 what was shown on the -- on the video and what you've 23 recorded it's fairly innocuous. You have females coming 24 in and out, there's cleaning up, that sort of thing 25 happening.
221 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And if you turn over to page 2 of 3 that entry, there's at 23:56 a male partying Native 4 wearing -- is that a military jacket? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. And if you just go down 7 to the entry at 00:56, "picture lost, 00:57 picture 8 returned", and that's what you were describing as the 9 picture would go in and out? 10 A: That's correct, sir. There's another 11 entry at 00:23 with the same notation. 12 Q: Turn over to page 3 at zero -- and 13 you'll correct me if I'm wrong, is that 14 "1:03, male Native wearing camouflage 15 vest, observed in kitchen"? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And at 01:29: 18 "four (4), new female Natives in the 19 kitchen making sandwiches, drinking 20 beer"? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: If you turn to Tab 16 just briefly 23 and there would appear to be a transcript between -- of a 24 conversation between yourself and Dale Linton, Mobile 25 command unit, September 6th, 05:32 hours.
231 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. And you've had a chance 3 to review that transcript before testifying here? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: You recognize that conversation and 6 did it refresh your memory that that's conversation that 7 you did in fact have with Dale Linton? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: You'll see if you go down just -- 10 down to the middle of the page approximately; "C.M." 11 that's yourself? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: It indicates: 14 "There was quite a bit of movement now. 15 We've had some problems with the phone 16 lines over the last hour and half of 17 the reception has been extremely poor. 18 I just got what looks like a blurred 19 screen and periodically it'll drop to 20 fifteen (15) to twenty (20) seconds." 21 You're simply reporting to Inspector 22 Linton what you've just confirmed for us in your 23 testimony that there was problems with the technology? 24 A: That's correct, sir. 25 Q: If you go down a little further, he's
241 confirming with you: 2 "Ten (10) to twelve (12) adult males, 3 eight (8) to ten (10) adult females, 4 two (2) children." 5 You say: 6 "Yep and one adolescent male probably 7 about 10 years old." 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: All right. If you go on down he asks 10 you: 11 "Are they still there?" 12 And your reply: 13 "Uh -- this has been at different times 14 just coming and going from the kitchen 15 area. I've seen them drinking beer. 16 They were in there making sandwiches." 17 I take it they weren't all drinking beer. 18 I mean, you've described some of them that were and your 19 notes would indicate that at least a couple of the 20 females who were making sandwiches were drinking beer? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. If you go to the top of the 23 next page and you're just finishing with that -- with 24 that sentence -- pardon me with that reply to Inspector 25 Linton:
251 "Other than drinking beer and you know, 2 eating, that's been basically all that 3 is going on. I haven't seen any 4 firearms." 5 A: That's correct, sir. 6 Q: And I take it that making 7 observations of that sort of thing, firearms particularly 8 was something that you would be keenly interested in? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And throughout your -- the -- the 11 time that you had -- have been observing the monitors 12 there was no such sighting? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: If I can just draw your attention to 15 the bottom of that transcript, and perhaps I should ask 16 that that transcript be made the next exhibit if I may? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1201, Your Honour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1201: Transcript of telephone 21 conversation of C. Martin - 22 Mobile Command Unit Region 1, 23 Logger tape number 2, Track 24 1, Disc 2 of 3, 05:32 hrs. 25 September 06, 1995.
261 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: If you turn to the bottom of that 3 transcript, do you see that -- Inspector Linton asks you: 4 "Who was it? Male? Female?" 5 Your answer: 6 "Two (2) -- two (2) adult females. 7 So..." 8 Then he asks you: 9 "What about the kiosk [or kiosk]?" 10 A: Yes, I see that. 11 Q: And I wonder if you would just go 12 ahead and read your entry and -- and then I'm going to 13 ask you about what does that mean? 14 A: "There's been no activity there at 15 all since shortly after midnight. 16 About 00:11 a person, the problem with 17 it is, there's no light around there, 18 its only backlighting." 19 Q: Tell me about that. What does -- 20 what does that refer to and...? 21 A: The kiosk was -- was a small building 22 at the entrance, partway up the driveway into the 23 entrance of the Provincial Park. There was no lights on 24 in that building. 25 There was a window at the front with a
271 shade that was drawn, a Venetian blind, I believe it was 2 a horizontal blind. And you could see that backlighting 3 so there must have been some type of artificial lighting 4 in the background and the only thing you could really see 5 on that camera was just that window with some type of 6 backlighting. There was no lights on in the kiosk. 7 Q: Again, just in relation to where was 8 that -- that building located to your -- to your 9 recollection? 10 A: It was partially up the driveway into 11 the Provincial Park, I would say, from my recollection, 12 seventy-five (75) to a hundred (100) metres in from Army 13 Camp Road. 14 Q: All right. Essentially at the Park 15 entrance; would that be fair. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. And I note from the logs 18 that you were relieved then at 8:30 in the morning; is 19 that right? 20 A: Yes, sir, that's correct. 21 Q: And your notes would also indicate 22 you went off duty then at 9:30? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And then re-assumed that detail at 25 19:10 hours on September the 6th?
281 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And remained there overnight? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Let's go back to the -- to -- the log 5 if you would please and we'll look at that portion of the 6 6th of September and when you re-assumed your detail at - 7 - perhaps I should just ask you: 8 When did you resume your detail and where 9 do your notes commence with respect to that document P- 10 1200? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: On page 15 of the log at 19:10 hours 15 in Constable Byatt's writing there's an indication that 16 "Byatt relieved by Martin". That's consistent with page 17 65 of my notebook which reflects that at 19:10 I relieved 18 Detective Sergeant Byatt at the Grand Bend Detachment as 19 monitoring officer. 20 Q: And just before you go on and -- and 21 tell us about your observations during that -- the course 22 of the detail, Officer, would you have been briefed by 23 the officer that you had relieved? 24 A: I believe I would have been briefed. 25 I don't recall that briefing and, obviously, the log
291 would have stayed there and I could have browsed through 2 the log as well. 3 Q: All right. And I know that you have 4 browsed through the log, even before testifying here and 5 is there anything of any significance that draws your 6 attention? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Just consistent activity from -- 11 Q: But insofar as the interest, and that 12 is the observations, for any type of offensive activity 13 or aggressive activity, offensive weapons, in particular 14 firearms, there was no such observations or records made? 15 A: Not noted in the log or in my 16 notebook, sir. 17 Q: And you'll see the entry at 19:44 18 hours. Again, you have technical difficulties, I 19 suppose. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: The picture goes down, your picture 22 comes back up. It's lost for about eighteen (18) 23 minutes, thereabouts, or fourteen (14) minutes, I'm 24 sorry. 25 A: Yes, sir.
301 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Just before we go on, Officer, there 5 should be a document in your -- in your binder. It's 6 Inquiry Document 2005502. It's marked as Exhibit P-1184. 7 It's a general occurrence report that 8 would appear to have been entered by yourself. It's 9 filed by 6842, Martin C., 9th of September '95. 10 Do you have that? 11 A: Which Tab would that be at, sir? 12 Q: I'm afraid it's not at a particular 13 Tab. Perhaps I can simply give you this copy. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Okay, thank you, sir. Yes, sir. 18 Q: Right. Do you recall filing that 19 report? And I note that it's filed on the 9th of 20 September, but it has to do with an incident that 21 occurred at approximately 7:00 p.m. thereabouts. 22 You see that Sam Poole is a witness, and 23 George Speck is noted as a witness on that? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: It's Inquiry Document 2000549.
311 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: That's an occurrence report that you 6 would have filed? 7 A: Yes, sir. I -- one of my assignments 8 during the investigation was to enter occurrence reports, 9 review them and enter them onto the OMPPAC system and 10 this report was authored by myself. 11 Q: All right. And I'm going to show you 12 an additional document. This has been marked as Exhibit 13 P-123. It's an interview report that was evidently taken 14 by Sam Poole of Gerald George, relative to that same 15 incident that's indicated in the occurrence report you 16 have in front of you. 17 A: Thank you, sir. 18 Q: Would you have seen that report at 19 the same time as you would have filed the general 20 occurrence report? 21 A: Yes, sir, I probably would have 22 reviewed it prior to -- 23 Q: Have you any independent recollection 24 today of seeing that? 25 A: I don't have an independent
321 recollection of -- of reviewing it. I would think it was 2 something that I would have done in the course of 3 completing the report. 4 Q: And I take it you wouldn't have seen 5 that on the date that's noted, that is on the 6th of 6 September, but rather on the date that's indicated in the 7 general occurrence report as to when that document was 8 actually put onto the system, as you've advised? 9 A: That's correct. I would not have 10 seen that on the 6th. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Excuse me one second. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Pardon me. I'm sorry. I wonder if 19 you could just take a look at that general occurrence 20 report again and if you would read the Inquiry document 21 number. 22 A: 2005502. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
331 Q: Perhaps I can ask you again to refer 2 to the document at Tab Number 15, that's the document 3 that's been marked as P-1200. And if you would turn to 4 page 24 of that -- sorry, page 15 of the notes. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Sorry, pardon me. I just need a -- 10 need a moment. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: In any event there's an entry of a -- 15 you're observing a -- a male Native with the blinds down 16 in the gatehouse. I'm just seeing if I can locate that. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Perhaps I should ask you this, 21 Officer, there were -- I take it there were two (2) 22 monitors, one (1) from the gatehouse, one (1) from the -- 23 the kiosk, is that right? 24 A: That's correct, sir. And as such 25 there was two (2) logs. One for the kiosk gatehouse and
341 one for the maintenance shed. I do not have the log in 2 front of me for the kiosk. 3 Q: All right, thank you. And if we can 4 just -- if I can just refer you to Tab 17; this is the 5 document that's already been marked. It's a transcript 6 of your conversation with Dale Linton. I believe I may 7 have already taken you to that. 8 And that is your report to Inspector 9 Linton of the kiosk with the -- or pardon me, the 10 gatehouse with the blinds down. 11 A: Yes, Tab 16 in my binder. 12 Q: Tab 16, that's right, I'm sorry. 13 A: Yes, refers to that conversation. 14 Q: If I can ask you to turn nextly to 15 Tab Number 17. It's a conversation between yourself and 16 -- well, eventually Officer Korosec. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. That's Inquiry Document 19 1001992 and I'd ask that be made the next exhibit please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-12 -- it is already an 21 exhibit. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry. I've seen 23 that this is already an exhibit. That's marked as 24 Exhibit P-347. Thank you. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
351 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 3 Q: And see where it -- where it ends on 4 -- on the middle of the first page: 5 "ARCHIBALD: Okay, hold on." 6 And then: 7 "KOROSEC: Go ahead Mumbley." 8 I take it that's you? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And you answer: 11 "Yeah, Rob. 12 KOROSEC: Stan. 13 MARTIN: Stan. 14 KOROSEC: Yes. 15 MARTIN: In the gatehouse. 16 KOROSEC: Yeah. 17 MARTIN: And it looks like a male 18 Native. It's pretty -- it's got dark 19 in there now, I can't tell." 20 So he continues on the next page. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: "MARTIN: He's entered the 23 gatehouse. He's closed the door. He's 24 put the blinds down. He's not -- I 25 can't see him right now. He's not on
361 the screen but he is in the gatehouse. 2 KOROSEC: Okay. 3 MARTIN: He has closed them blind and 4 periodically he'll peek through there 5 so I don't know if he's armed or not. 6 KOROSEC: Okay. We weren't going to 7 go down..." 8 Pardon me, let me -- let me back up. 9 KOROSEC: Okay. We weren't going to 10 go anywhere near that thing. 11 MARTIN: Okay. Well it's just an FYI 12 for you guys." 13 I think you've already described the fact 14 that the gatehouse was -- was dark, that there were 15 blinds in there and all you could observe was shadows or 16 silhouettes. 17 A: That's correct, sir. 18 Q: And that's what you're reporting in 19 this conversation with Officer Korosec? 20 A: That's correct, sir. 21 Q: If we can go back to the log at -- at 22 Tab 16. Did you have any further dealings on the night 23 of September the 6th, make any further observations? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
371 Q: If you look at page 16. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And I should say, any -- any 6 observations or any notations of any significance? 7 A: No, that's correct, it just notes 8 that there's continued problems with the technology. 9 Q: All right. And your detail then 10 continues into the morning hours of September the 7th. 11 You have an entry at 00:01: 12 "Male and female native in and out." 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Up to this point in time had you been 15 made aware through any -- any manner that there had been 16 a shooting at the -- at the Park? 17 A: I'm not sure what time I became aware 18 of that. 19 Q: You wouldn't have made any note on 20 this log in any event? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: And you didn't make any notes in your 23 -- in your notebook as to being informed of the fact that 24 there was gunfire at the Park? 25 A: No, sir.
381 Q: If you turn to the next page there's 2 an entry at 01:20 hours and perhaps you can just go ahead 3 and read that? 4 A: Page number 17 of that log at 01:20: 5 "Call male party [quote/unquote] 'I'm 6 going to kill all you assholes 7 tonight'; male - Native." 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And let me just refer you to Tab 12 Number -- there's a document at Tab Number 18, it's a 13 conversation between yourself and Stan Korosec again. 14 It's noted September 7th, 1995, at 01:19 hours? 15 I take it this is a phone call that you're 16 putting into the Command Post at Forest Detachment? 17 A: That's correct, sir. 18 Q: And see it takes a while for -- for 19 Officer Korosec to come on the line but you eventually 20 get him on the line and you're reporting to him. Do you 21 see at the bottom of the page? 22 A: Actually, sir, I -- I end up speaking 23 to Rob Graham. 24 Q: All right. And you do make that 25 report? Do you see at the bottom of the page it says:
391 "C.M. 01:20 hours I received a threat 2 from a male Native, 'I'm going to kill 3 all you assholes tonight' 4 [quote/unquote]."? 5 A: That's correct, sir. 6 Q: And you see on the next page you -- 7 you indicate: 8 "Rob I want some ERT guys up here. I'm 9 sitting here in this building by 10 myself, I took the call and I'm the 11 only guy here and I'm watching these 12 monitors. 13 ROB GRAHAM: Yup, all right. We'll 14 see what we can get you. 15 CHRIS MARTIN: Andrea Weir's coming up 16 to take the phone calls but I want two 17 (2) flipping guys outside. They know 18 I'm here, you know, so -- 19 ROB GRAHAM: Yeah. 20 CHRIS MARTIN: Okay. 21 R.G.: Alrighty, lad." 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And that was in relation to -- to 24 what you'd reported about receiving a threat from a male 25 Native?
401 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: How did you know it was a Native? 3 A: My notebook indicates that on the 4 bottom of page 65 at 01:20: 5 "I received a call from a middle-aged 6 male party. Stated, I'm going to kill 7 all you assholes tonight then hung -- 8 then hung up." 9 I believe I thought that it was a male 10 Native because of a dialect that is -- I've heard through 11 my experiences in First Nations policing, that I've heard 12 from some but not all individuals from First Nations 13 communities. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I have no other independent 16 recollection as to why I would have used that term. 17 Q: Thank you. The -- the conversation 18 between yourself and -- and Rob Graham, perhaps that can 19 be marked as the next exhibit please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1202, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1202: Transcript of telephone 23 conversation of C. Martin - 24 Mobile Command Unit Region 3, 25 Logger tape number 4, Track
411 1, Disc 2 of 3, 01:19 hrs, 2 September 07, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: If I can ask you to turn back to your 6 notes then at pages 65 to 68. You'll find those at Tab 7 23, Commissioner. 8 And that's a record, Officer, of the same 9 period of time that you've just reported and testified to 10 now? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And the officers that you asked to 16 come and attend, did they eventually come and attend to 17 the Grand Bend Detachment? 18 A: I don't believe they did, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: What's the next thing that happens, 23 Officer, of significance? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
421 A: On page 17 of the log, I continued 2 recording entries from the monitor for the maintenance 3 shed. However, in my notebook, on the middle -- the top 4 of page 66, at 03:16 hours I have the entry: 5 "Flames noticed in the gatehouse in the 6 northwest corner. 03:21, a video 7 failure on camera. 03:23, recording 8 equipment shut off. Earlier at 03:14 I 9 had removed tape number 5 and started 10 recording the gatehouse with tape 11 number 6. 12 At 03:17, I removed tape number 5 from 13 maintenance shed and initiated 14 recording on tape number 6." 15 Q: All right. And if I can ask you to 16 turn to Tab number 13. We've already looked at this 17 document, that's the excerpts from the scribe notes, 18 Exhibit 426. 19 You see the entry at 05:48 hours? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: You have a conversation with -- with 25 Dale Linton. You advised that the kiosk was burnt down,
431 no one observed setting it. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: All right. And at Tab 19, there is a 4 conversation where you call again the mobile command 5 unit, September 7th at 05:39 hours. 6 Or perhaps it's Dale Linton calling, but 7 in any event, you see the first entry is, "What's the 8 guy's name on this monitor", referring to Dale Linton. 9 Somebody answers, "Chris Martin". 10 Are you with me, Tab 19? 11 A: Tab 19. 12 Q: It's a transcript of -- of a phone 13 call. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And then "C.B." who refers to -- is 16 referring to Charlie Bouwman: 17 "Good morning, Grand Bend OPP. Staff 18 Sergeant Bouwman. 19 DALE LINTON: Charlie, you're up 20 early. 21 CHARLIE BOUWMAN: Yes, I am. 22 DALE LINTON: I been -- I just been 23 up. Ha ha." 24 Then they -- he goes on to ask for you; do 25 you see that?
441 A: Yes, sir. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And then you go on to report what 6 you've just testified to, the fact that in fact the -- 7 the cameras went down. 8 You see in the middle of page 2: 9 "And it appears as if the fire started 10 in that area and it progressed west 11 from there, judging by the way the 12 flames were going. 13 So, I went back through and couldn't 14 detect anybody opening the door of 15 where it actually started." 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Maybe that can be marked as the next 18 exhibit, please. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1203, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1203: Transcript conversation of 22 Chris Martin Mobile Command 23 Unit , Region 4, Logger tape 24 number 4, Track 3, Disc 2 of 25 3, 05:39 hrs, September 07,
451 1995. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: And -- and at some point in time, you 5 were relieved of that detail, monitoring the -- the 6 video? 7 A: Yes, sir. Page 66 of my notes refers 8 to 07:00, relieved by Detective Constable Byatt. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: All right. Let me just take you back 13 to the transcript that we were just looking at, at Tab 14 19. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: All right. I want you to just turn 19 to page 2, if you would, please, and you see where it 20 says, "Sir, I went back through the tape, but I couldn't 21 find anything."? 22 He's asking you about how the fire 23 started. 24 A: Yes, sir, I see it. 25 Q: Could just go ahead and read for the
461 record, please. If you could just go beyond that, 2 provide the information that you would provided to 3 Inspector Linton. 4 A: "Sir, I went back through the tape 5 again, but I could not find anything. 6 It appears as if it was started like 7 that whole front of the building is 8 glass windows and screens and that." 9 Dale Linton response: 10 "Yeah." 11 My response: 12 "And it appears as if the fire started 13 in that area and progressed west from 14 there, judging by the way the flames 15 were going. So, I went back through 16 and couldn't detect anybody opening a 17 door of where it actually started. 18 DALE LINTON: And what about the 19 mechanical building?" 20 My response: 21 "The maintenance shack is, the camera's 22 up and running on it, and has been 23 running very well for quite some time. 24 DALE LINTON: Anybody in there?" 25 My response:
471 "And nobody has been observed in there, 2 sir, since 2:52 was the last time I saw 3 a male party in there and that was 4 almost three (3) hours ago. 5 DALE LINTON: Okay." 6 My response: 7 "There is, it's hard to tell in here, 8 an entrance way into the kitchen in the 9 top right of the screen, and there 10 appears to be some movement way back in 11 behind there, because the screen is 12 constantly changing. Now, I don't know 13 if that's just because it's a poor 14 image or if there is actually some 15 movement at the back of the entrance 16 way there. 17 DALE LINTON: Not like last night, eh? 18 They were in there having sandwiches 19 and a pint, eh? 20 CHRIS MARTIN: No, it hasn't been like 21 last night. Like I say, 2:52 was the 22 last time I saw anybody in here. 23 DALE LINTON: Okay. And were there 24 people, just a few or was it a big 25 meeting room?"
481 My response: 2 "No, there was just a few, sir, just a 3 few unknown. 4 DALE LINTON: Okay, good, thanks a 5 lot. 6 CHRIS MARTIN: Okay, sir, bye." 7 Q: And that was the end of that 8 conversation? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: You returned, I think you were 11 indicating, at -- to the Forest Detachment after you were 12 relieved of your duty at that -- that evening. 13 A: Yes, sir, I did. 14 Q: And your notes at page 66 at 07:30 15 hours say that -- perhaps you can just tell us what that 16 says. 17 A: "07:30, ATS Forest Detachment. Spoke 18 to Intelligence branch with regards to 19 investigation. Briefed by Detective 20 Inspector B. Goodall regarding 21 investigation to date." 22 Q: Just before you go on, officer, when 23 you met with the Intel branch, who would that be? 24 A: I don't recall, sir. 25 Q: I take it by that time, you certainly
491 would have been aware that there had been a shooting the 2 night previous, that in fact there was a fatality and 3 there were others that were injured? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Civilians. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. You had a briefing with 8 Inspector Goodall. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Yes. Just carry on, and tell us what 11 happened. 12 A: As per my notes, at the bottom of 13 page 66, the next entry following that. 14 "Our responsibilities, et cetera. 15 Relay Detective Constable Speck to the 16 Pinedale Motor Inn, in Grand Bend." 17 Q: Right. So you had -- you had been 18 given an assignment, and what was that assignment? 19 A: I believe the assignment was to 20 identify where the ERT members were staying, who were 21 staying at certain locations and consideration for 22 statements and any physical evidence, if any. 23 Q: All right. And we've asked other 24 officers about what the mood was at the Detachment; what 25 can you tell us? Do you have any recollection of that?
501 A: I hadn't spent much time at the 2 Command Post up to that point, so I can't say and how the 3 mood was prior to that, but there was a -- certainly a 4 sombre, serious mood on that morning, with a lot of 5 activity, a lot of people in and around. 6 I proceeded into a small office area, 7 known as the breath room, where the -- where that 8 briefing was held. 9 Q: Okay. I want you to turn to Tab 23, 10 Officer, of the book of documents in front of you. There 11 is, at the very front of that tab, a Will Say provided by 12 yourself. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 15 the first page of that essentially contains much of what 16 you've already testified to and referred to in your 17 notes. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: If you turn to page 2 of that towards 20 the bottom of the page, see the entry where it starts at 21 7:30 a.m.? 22 "I along with several other members 23 formed an investigative team and headed 24 by Detective Inspector B. Goodall." 25 A: Yes, sir.
511 Q: All right. You go on to indicate 2 that you were briefed on that. You spoke briefly with 3 Constable B. McKnight. 4 "Constable B. McKnight turned over to 5 me a retractable baton which I 6 subsequently seized at 11:22 hours." 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: What was the purpose of that? If you 9 can recall? 10 A: I believe that Constable McKnight was 11 involved in the altercation and the purpose, according to 12 my notes and I can read those if you prefer. 13 Q: Please do. 14 A: 11:20, page 67: 15 "Spoke to Constable Bill McKnight of 3 16 District ERT team regarding his 17 involvement. He advised me that he was 18 struck by a Chrysler New Yorker, grey 19 or silver in color. 20 Examined his equipment for physical 21 evidence. Negative results. 22 11:22, McKnight turned over to me his 23 retractable baton. I subsequently 24 seized same for possible paint chips 25 and markings from vehicle in which
521 shots had been fired from. 2 Retained in my possession. Proceeded 3 to Grand Bend Detachment. Tried to 4 contact McKnight. Negative results. 5 Left message for him to contact me. 6 Proceeded back to Forest Detachment." 7 Q: All right. And if I can ask you 8 then -- 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Let him finish. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry. Yeah, continue 11 on. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: 12:54 he turned over 13 baton. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Yeah, continue on. 17 A: "12:40 ATS. 12:54 turned baton over 18 to Constable Middel, Ident Unit, after 19 placing same in a cardboard holding 20 case and sealing it with Centre of 21 Forensic Science seals, K-66216 and K- 22 66217." 23 Q: Those notations, I take it, were 24 simply for the continuity of -- of the item that you 25 would have seized?
531 A: That's correct, sir. 2 Q: Beyond seizing that item and turning 3 it over as you've just testified to, do you know the 4 result, if any, that were -- were there any results that 5 you were made aware with respect to the examinations that 6 might have taken place? 7 A: For some reason I -- I don't think 8 there were any positive results and I'm not sure why I 9 recall that. 10 Q: And if you can just again refer back 11 to the Will Say statement at Tab 23. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Just beyond the -- the entry that 14 I've taken you to at 7:30 a.m. Can you just start at the 15 next one at 8 -- on the 8th of September, pardon me? 16 A: "On the 8th of September 1995, I was 17 assigned to assist Detective Sergeant 18 Trevor Richardson with all of their 19 criminal investigations excluding the 20 attempt murder of our Members. 21 At 10:10 a.m. I relayed from the 22 Strathroy OPP Detachment to the Sarnia 23 Court buildings where at 11:43 a.m. I 24 turned him over to Court Security." 25 Q: Okay. And that person that you had
541 relayed from the Strathroy Detachment was Cecil Bernard 2 George? 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: And I'll take you to that in a moment 5 but before we go there I just want to take you to your 6 notes if we could please. At page -- pages 68 of your 7 notebook you have entries for the 8th of September. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And if I can also take you to -- and 10 Commissioner, this will appear at that same tab, and you 11 will find at the second blue page that separates these 12 documents -- and I regret this is a bit cumbersome. 13 But, Officer, on the 8th of September you 14 started a new notebook. 15 A: That's correct, sir. 16 Q: So you were running two (2) 17 notebooks. 18 A: That is correct, sir. 19 Q: And what's the reason for that? 20 A: In my role with the Crime Unit I was 21 a Detective Constable. I'd really only been in that 22 capacity for approximately two (2) months. And I 23 received instruction at the commencement of the 24 investigation on the 8th, that I should start a -- a -- 25 what would be referred to as 'crime notebook' pertaining
551 to the investigation as it was easier for the continuity 2 of my notes to have one (1) black binder. 3 What I was not instructed was that I did 4 not need to no longer use the -- the small police 5 officer's notebook that I'd used for the preceding ten 6 (10) years. 7 Q: But nonetheless you -- you maintained 8 that small notebook as you've just described it? 9 A: Yes, sir, I did. 10 Q: Okay. Let me just take you then to 11 the -- to the entries with respect to your transport of 12 Cecil Bernard George. 13 First of all do you have any independent 14 recollection of -- of transporting Bernard George? 15 A: Yes, sir, I do. I have some 16 independent recollection of that. 17 Q: Okay. Your notes would indicate that 18 you were partnered with David Maddocks? 19 A: That's correct, sir. 20 Q: And what injuries if any did you 21 observe on Mr. George? 22 A: Cecil Bernard George had some 23 injuries about his face, particularly I recall a very 24 swollen lip, and I think there were some other bruises 25 and abrasions about his face as well. I -- I don't
561 recall what they were but I know that he had abrasions 2 and whatnot about his face, but particularly the swollen 3 lip. 4 Q: All right. Did you have any 5 conversation with him about how those injuries were 6 sustained? 7 A: No, sir, I did not. 8 Q: Okay. Do you have any other 9 observations about his demeanour? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I recall him being quiet and 14 compliant, cooperative. 15 Q: All right. Perhaps I can just ask 16 you to turn over to the document at Tab 24 it's Inquiry 17 Document 2004003. It's a Will Say of David E. Maddocks, 18 OPP Detective Constable. Do you see that? 19 A: Yes, sir, I do. 20 Q: If you go to the middle of that first 21 page on September the 8th and I'm quoting: 22 "On September the 8th D/C Chris Martin 23 and I attended at Strathroy Detachment 24 at 10:07 a.m. and picked up a prisoner 25 named..."
571 And it's redacted but you've confirmed for 2 us that's Cecil Bernard George? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: "I recall that [it's redacted] had 5 injuries to his head and that it was 6 very swollen." 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Do you recall his head being very 9 swollen as it's indicated there and in the observation of 10 Officer Maddocks? 11 A: Again, I recall the lip being very 12 swollen. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I don't have any independent 15 recollection about -- about the head per se. 16 Q: Thank you. I'll just read on. 17 "He responded to our requests and 18 accompanied without incident. We 19 allowed him to smoke as we drove to 20 Sarnia. He did not wish to discuss how 21 he was injured but he did participate 22 in some small talk with us. We 23 delivered him to the Court Officers at 24 10:48 and he was lodged in the court 25 cells. I never saw Cecil again."
581 Is that -- that accords with your 2 recollection? 3 A: Yes, sir, it does. 4 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 5 exhibit please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1204, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1204: Document Number 2004003. 9 Statement of OPP D/S David E. 10 Maddocks. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Beyond that, sir, you had some 14 peripheral involvement in terms of taking statements from 15 ambulance attendants John Tedball and Mark Watt? 16 A: Yes, sir, that is correct. 17 Q: They were involved in the transport 18 of Cecil Bernard George to the Strathroy Hospital, 19 correct? 20 A: That's correct, sir. 21 Q: You took a statement as well from 22 Provincial Constable Boone, he was the officer that 23 accompanied that -- that ambulance with Cecil Bernard 24 George? 25 A: I did not take a statement from
591 Constable Boone. I requested Constable Boone to provide 2 a statement but I did not take that statement. 3 Q: I see. And that's recorded in your 4 notebook at pages 69 and 70 if you can confirm that for 5 us, yes? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And it's also recorded in the 8 notebook, the -- the second notebook. And I'm not sure 9 how I should be describing this. How would you describe 10 that? 11 A: I would describe this as the 12 investigative notes. 13 Q: The investigative notes. All right. 14 A: And the smaller one is my notebook. 15 Q: Beyond that, sir, and I don't intend 16 to -- to get into it but there were a number of other 17 incidents that you investigated up until, approximately, 18 September the 18th, yes? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: We have a number of Inquiry documents 21 and, Commissioner, what I propose to do at this point is 22 I will simply provide... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
601 Q: As a matter of fact, I don't have any 2 further questions. I simply want to ask you, Officer -- 3 sorry. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Mr. Millar informs me that the 8 general occurrence report, Officer, that I had taken you 9 to, Inquiry Document 2005502. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: It's an eighty-seven (87) page 12 document. And I -- what I'm going to ask you to do, is if 13 you can just read the front number on that. There's a 14 small number in the upper left hand corner; do you see 15 that? 16 A: 2800556. 17 Q: Yeah. And I'm informed that that has 18 not been made an exhibit, and perhaps I would ask that 19 that be made an exhibit. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 21 that at? I've sort of -- 22 MR. DONALD WORME: There is no -- it's 23 not in here -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not in here, 25 okay.
611 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, it's not in our 2 -- our document -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And this is 4 just an excerpt of it? 5 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 THE REGISTRAR: What are the numbers on 8 that again? 9 MR. DONALD WORME: 2005502 is the Inquiry 10 document number. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1205. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1205. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1205: Document Number 2005502. 15 General Occurrence Report. 16 September 09, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Beyond the peripheral involvement 20 that you had in doing some following investigation, you 21 had no further involvement in this matter? 22 A: No. It was primarily sourced 23 statements and comp -- the completing of occurrence 24 reports. 25 Q: All right, thank you, officer.
621 That's all the questions that I have of this Witness -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much -- 4 MR. DONALD WORME: -- Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 6 Worme. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, does 9 anybody have any questions for this Witness. Perhaps you 10 would give me an indication, so we know where we are. 11 Yes, Mr. Alexander, how long might you be? 12 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) 13 minutes to half an hour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Esmonde...? 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Just fifteen (15) 17 minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Neil? 20 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Fifteen (15) as well, 21 please. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 23 as well. 24 Mr. George...? 25 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: I'll reserve five
631 (5) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 3 McAleer...? 4 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Two (2) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 6 two (2) minutes? 7 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Two (2) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 9 Mr. Roy...? 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: Fifteen (15) to twenty 11 (20) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 13 I suppose we could start right now. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, before 15 you start, my -- I'd spoken to My Friend, Mr. Worme, 16 about some additional documents and he'd given notice of 17 those documents to the parties and he was about, I 18 thought, to lead those documents in through the Witness 19 when Mr. Millar, I think, intervened and suggested he not 20 do so. 21 They're documents that post-date the 22 September 6th incidents and they're a number of 23 occurrence reports and interviews that this Witness took, 24 and I'd suggest that they go in as a single document, 25 just to show what he'd done.
641 But I'm obliged, since I was expecting Mr. 2 Worme to do it, I'm obliged to put them in now, before 3 cross-examination, because this is additional evidence 4 in-chief. I didn't think I'd have to do it. 5 And I -- unfortunately, I don't have 6 copies, because they were -- I expected Mr. Worme to do 7 them. They were part of his -- his product -- his notice 8 documents. So, I'm -- I'm obliged to do it, but I don't 9 have copies. I have one (1) copy for myself. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: I could get copies. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we can 13 make copies during the break. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: What I'd propose is to 15 simply put them in as a single document and I've got an 16 index and so on for them, and simply ask is this the 17 investigation work you did post-September 6th, and he'll 18 say, Yes it is, and file them as such. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have any 20 problem with My Friend doing so, Mr. Commissioner. They 21 are matters that post-date the incident and you'll know 22 that we haven't really -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Spent a 24 great deal of time with post. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: -- made enquiries
651 beyond that -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whether it's 3 about -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: But they're -- but 5 they're about the incident. They're investigating -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay, 7 if you put them in that way as a single document, we'll 8 receive it that way. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: If you could -- if we 10 could take a break, I can get some copy or -- 11 MR. DONALD WORME: We do have copies. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have -- 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: You have copies? 14 MR. DONALD WORME: We do have copies. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: And -- 16 MR. DONALD WORME: You'll find those -- 17 you'll find those in the yellow folder in front of you, 18 Commissioner. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: But I -- I'd simply -- 20 is there an index as well? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, we'll there... 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right, then I'd 23 simply propose to put these in through this Witness in 24 the way I've said and then if My Friends want to cross- 25 examine, it's up to them. But I think I'm obliged on
661 your rules to do this at this stage. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 3 obliged or you are? 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: I am obliged. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 6 are. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 9 okay -- 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's why I stand up 11 now -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- rather than at the 14 end. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's do it 16 now. That's fine. Then you have a couple of questions 17 you want to ask him to get them in. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that what 20 you want to do? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, just to identify 22 the documents. Does he -- does the Witness have a copy 23 of these? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: They should be in the 25 -- in the yellow folder in front of him.
671 2 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: Sergeant Martin, you have before a 4 yellow folder with a number of documents in them and 5 there is an -- what appears to be an index description of 6 those documents, you'll see, beginning with Document 7 Number 2004494. 8 Do you have those documents before you? 9 A: Yes, sir, I do. 10 Q: And have you reviewed those 11 documents? 12 A: If I could just have a minute to 13 review them, sir, just to confirm? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: I have seen many of these things 16 before. 17 Q: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There looks 22 like they're statements taken between September the 10th 23 and November the 10th. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 25
681 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: We see from the index, Const -- 3 Sergeant Martin, that their -- they're general occurrence 4 reports, interview reports, statements -- intelligence 5 reports, statements taken, and they -- they all cover the 6 period from September 10 to September 18 but for one (1) 7 which appears to be a follow-up statement taken from an 8 individual. 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: And are all these documents that -- 11 were prepared by you? 12 A: Yes, most of them were. 13 Q: And are these -- are these 14 investigative -- interview reports that you conducted? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And statements that you took? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Intelligence reports that you 19 prepared? 20 A: I didn't prepare any intelligence 21 reports but -- 22 Q: I'm sorry. 23 A: -- I see there is one here sourced to 24 me but I didn't prepare that. 25 Q: All right. Are you familiar with
691 those intelligence reports? 2 A: Yes, I have seen them before. 3 Q: I propose then to just -- to file 4 them as a single exhibit, as the -- and I take it this is 5 the investigative work that you perform as tasked to 6 perform following the events of September 6th -- 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: -- as an investigator? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit 11 number? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1206, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1206. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1206: Document numbers, 2004494, 16 2003674, 2004563, 2004570, 17 2004578, 1000426, 2004580, 18 1000327, 2003580, 2003478, 19 2003386, 2004613, 2003616, 20 2003462,2004624, 1000427, 21 September 10 - November 10, 22 1995. 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Roland. We'll start with the cross-examinations now
701 then. Mr. Alexander -- I'm sorry, my order is the 2 Province -- the OPP first. The OPP -- 3 MR. DONALD WORME: They -- they have no 4 questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Harris-- 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Just the -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so I 8 guess it's Ms. McAleer. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Ms. McAleer. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 11 You're right. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 14 Q: Good morning, Officer Martin. 15 A: Good morning, ma'am. 16 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 17 one (1) of the lawyers who's acting for the former 18 Premier Mike Harris. 19 You testified that you have been policing 20 in the area since 1987 and since that time you had 21 developed a strong relationship with members of the 22 Kettle Point Police Force and also some members of the 23 Kettle Point and Stony Point community; that's correct is 24 it? 25 A: Yes, ma'am.
711 Q: And during the course of your 2 relationships with those individuals you -- you indicated 3 that you had heard about claims to the Army Camp; had you 4 ever heard about any claims to the Provincial Park prior 5 to 1993? 6 A: Not prior to 1993, no. 7 Q: Okay. And then you also testified 8 about your limited involvement with the occupiers in 9 1993, 1994, 1995, up -- before you started your 10 undercover assignment. 11 During that period of time before you 12 started your undercover assignment had you ever heard 13 about any claims to the Provincial Park? 14 A: I can't recall exactly at what time 15 around that 1995 timeframe that I would have heard that 16 the Provincial Park was a Native burial ground. 17 Q: Okay. Do you remember from whom you 18 heard that? 19 A: No, ma'am, I don't. 20 Q: Okay. And during the course of your 21 undercover assignment you testified about certain 22 assertions that individuals such as Dudley George and 23 some other unnamed individuals had made about the 24 Provincial Park stating, This is our land, This is our 25 property.
721 Did you ever hear anybody say there's a 2 burial ground in the Provincial Park? 3 A: I don't recall that. 4 Q: Okay. Those are all of my questions. 5 Thank you. 6 A: Thank you, ma'am. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Ms. McAleer. I think, Mr. Alexander. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 11 Q: Good morning, Officer Martin. 12 A: Good morning, sir. 13 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 14 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 15 and several members of the George Family, including Sam 16 George who's sitting here beside me. 17 A: Okay, sir. 18 Q: And you'll be happy to know that I 19 only have very few questions to ask in one focused area. 20 And it has to do with the surveillance that you were 21 responsible for conducting on the evening of the 6th and 22 the evening of the 5th. I'm focusing mainly on the 23 evening of the 6th. 24 A: Okay, sir. 25 Q: Now, as I understand it, the feeds
731 for the surveillance were based in Grand Bend while the 2 rest of the operation was located at Forest. Does that 3 sound correct? 4 A: Yes. Only the monitors were in Grand 5 Bend, that was it. 6 Q: So what I'm trying to understand is 7 I'm trying to understand how you would communicate with 8 the people in Forest about what was going on. 9 Would you essentially just provide 10 periodic updates if they called to ask you for an update, 11 and when something significant happened, you would just 12 report it up immediately? 13 A: I believe the latter part of your 14 question was that, yes. If there was something 15 significant I would pick up a phone and report it 16 immediately. 17 Q: And based on your answer, I presume 18 that the way the two (2) bases communicated mainly was by 19 telephone, not by radio or -- or any other method? 20 A: That's correct, sir. 21 Q: The other question I had for you was 22 in terms of where you were located in Grand Bend. Were 23 the monitors in a separate room in the Detachment or were 24 they part of the regular Detachment. I -- I'm trying to 25 get an idea of where it was located over there.
741 A: The Grand Bend Detachment has a 2 general office area, pretty much in the middle of the 3 building. And off of that general office area is a small 4 enclosed office, it's now used as a bylaw enforcement 5 office. 6 There's no windows, there's a phone in 7 there. And it was that small little room, that might be 8 8X8, in the middle of the building, with no windows in 9 it, that was used as the monitoring area. 10 Q: And would you normally have the door 11 closed in that room when you were in there? There was no 12 windows so I'm just curious as to whether you would be 13 isolated in this room or if you would be able to hear 14 what was going on outside in the main room in Grand Bend, 15 or not? 16 A: You would be able to hear if there 17 was anybody in that general office area. I recall the 18 office being very quiet at that time and -- and if there 19 were people in there doing other things then I would be 20 telling them to close the door. 21 Q: The other thing I was going to ask 22 was in Grand Bend where -- would you be able to hear any 23 radio transmissions at all in the Grand Bend Detachment 24 where you were located, or was that in a totally 25 different area in the Grand Bend Detachment?
751 A: The radio was located in the very 2 front office of the Detachment, so I wasn't privy to any 3 radio conversations that night. 4 Q: So you wouldn't have heard anything 5 at all on that point? You just would have heard the 6 general noise that would have been going on in the main 7 office at that point? 8 A: Yes. And as I recall there wasn't 9 any. 10 Q: So it would be safe to say that you 11 were generally -- you were generally not informed or 12 aware of what was going on in the Command Post that 13 evening unless somebody called you or asked you some 14 questions; is that fair? 15 A: That's fair, sir. 16 Q: Okay. Now, for your reference, 17 you've made reference to the two (2) things that we were 18 recording, one was the kiosk and the other one was the 19 maintenance shack. I'm going to focus on the kiosk. 20 A: Okay, sir. 21 Q: Now, as I understand it, there was 22 only one (1) recording that was going on there. Does 23 that sound about right, there was only one (1) camera? 24 A: No there was one (1) in the kiosk and 25 then one (1) in the maintenance shed.
761 Q: Right. But there was only one (1) in 2 the kiosk? 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: Okay. Now, just for your reference, 5 I don't intend to play this, we've had the tape of that - 6 - of the kiosk recording entered into these proceedings 7 and we played parts of it for us. 8 The exhibit number for My Friends' 9 reference is P-473 and it was done on June 9th, 2006. 10 And the reference I'm referring to is page 13. 11 What I'm focusing on is the time. And 12 what I'm focusing on specifically is the time that the 13 blinds were closed. Now, according to the time stamp on 14 that tape, it appears that the blinds -- blinds were 15 closed at 19:58 hours. 16 Does that sound about right to your 17 recollection as to when it was? 18 A: Sir, I really wish I had that kiosk 19 log in front of me because I would have recorded that 20 activity on there, and not in my notebook, so I can't 21 accurately say what time that would have been. 22 Q: But you don't take any issue with 23 that time? 24 A: I certainly have nothing here to 25 rebut it, sir, no.
771 Q: Okay. Now the other -- now the other 2 question I have for you was, let's presume that that time 3 is accurate based on what's on the time stamp, we've seen 4 no indication that you reported it at that time to the 5 Command Post. 6 Do you have any recollection of reporting 7 it at that time to the Command Post? 8 A: No, sir, I don't have any independent 9 recollection of that. 10 Q: And so it would appear that you 11 didn't view it as significant at the time when the blinds 12 were closed? 13 A: I -- I really couldn't say, like, I 14 don't recall calling, and it's certainly possible that I 15 may not have considered that to be significant. 16 Q: Now, the second part of this is -- 17 the second thing I'm looking at is sort of the chronology 18 as to what happens. And now what I'm looking at is Tab 19 17, which is the phone call where you report back to the 20 ERT -- to the ERT person, which is Korosec in this case, 21 at the time of when the -- of when the -- when you report 22 back that the blinds are actually closed. 23 Now, we -- if you'll note at the top, it 24 says "20:05." We've heard evidence, we've been advised 25 here that when we're looking at the logger tapes, in
781 order to correlate the times with what's in the scribe 2 notes we have to add seven (7) minutes to make sure 3 everything is on the same thing. 4 So when you add seven (7) minutes to this, 5 it would appear that the phone call would have been 6 initiated at about 20:12. 7 A: Okay, sir. 8 Q: You can take my word for that. So 9 when you do the math, it appears that fourteen (14) 10 minutes have passed between when the blinds were closed 11 and when the information got to the Command Post, and 12 this seems to be the first instance of when this 13 information was reported to the Command Post. 14 Does that sound about right? 15 A: That would sound about right, sir, 16 yes. 17 Q: Okay. Now, the second thing I wanted 18 to go and look at is some of the specific wording you use 19 in this -- in this call. 20 Mr. Commissioner, I'm not going to take 21 him through all of it. There's some specific phrases I'm 22 interested in. 23 The first one is about the -- about nearly 24 the middle of the page where it says: 25 "MARTIN: Well, this is what -- this is
791 what I had for him." 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Yes, correct, sir. 6 Q: Now, my interpretation of that is it 7 seems that you're responding to a request for information 8 as to what may have been going on at the kiosk. Is that 9 a fair interpretation? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: So it sounds like you're actually 12 responding to a -- a request from the Command Post, 13 you're not providing the information independently on 14 that one? 15 A: I would have contacted the Command 16 Post on this call here; I would have initiated that call. 17 Q: Sorry, I didn't hear you. 18 A: I would have initiated this call to 19 the Command Post. 20 Q: Right. But it was in response to a 21 request, it seems, based on that comment? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And if it helps you, the line above
801 it, it says: 2 "Well, I guess a little better. Who's 3 the ERT guy in there that's on the 4 radio? Well, Rob Graham, but we're 5 really busy at the moment. 6 Well, this is what -- this is what I 7 had for him." 8 So... 9 A: I guess I -- I don't know that I 10 could say that it wasn't a specific request. I think 11 that I was passing information on to, you know, whoever 12 the ERT leader was or whoever the ERT person was on radio 13 at the time and -- and this is the information that I was 14 passing on to him. 15 Q: But you can't dispute -- you can't -- 16 you can't say that definitively as to whether or not you 17 initiated that call or whether or not it may have been in 18 response to a request for information from the Command 19 Post? 20 A: I can say that I am the caller, with 21 definitiveness, but I cannot say if -- with any 22 certainty, if that was as a result of a request. 23 Q: That's fair enough. And then the -- 24 the reason why I'm following this up is again on the 25 second page about the middle -- about a third of the way
811 down where it says, "Korosec." It says: 2 "Okay, we weren't going to go anywhere 3 near that thing." 4 This is after you've given the information 5 about what's going on. 6 It seems that he -- it seems that he's 7 indicating that there was -- that some information has 8 been passed on to you with respect to information that 9 they were looking at or something that they were looking 10 for. 11 A: I recall, you know, that statement 12 and I wasn't really privy to a lot of, or much at all, of 13 really what was happening at the Command Post or what was 14 happening at the scene. 15 And I really don't know what he meant by 16 that -- that comment, other than that the kiosk was well 17 into the Park and that it wasn't a concern to him. 18 Q: No, and I think I -- I'm probing your 19 knowledge, is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to 20 understand whether or not any information -- whether or 21 not -- this is the reason why I'm asking whether or not a 22 request was made, because it seems that there's an 23 inference that they've passed on some information to you, 24 that they're looking for some information about the kiosk 25 and that you're responding to it, and there might be a
821 plan or there might be some concerns or something that 2 they're thinking about in that. 3 And I'm trying to understand whether or 4 not you recall anything as a result. You may not, which 5 is fine as well. 6 A: They may have called at some point, 7 sir, and requested an update with any activity at the 8 kiosk earlier in the evening or to focus on the kiosk, 9 but I cannot recall with any certainty. 10 Q: Okay. And the last comment I want to 11 ask you about is towards the end of page 2 and the 12 beginning of page 3. 13 "And somebody's in -- 14 MARTIN: And somebody's entered and 15 they're peeking out. Now, I don't know 16 if they've got weapons in there or not, 17 but that's obviously -- 18 KOROSEC: Okay. 19 MARTIN: It would be a good spot to be 20 barricaded if it was." 21 Now, the question I want to -- I want to 22 follow-up on is the use of the word, "barricaded," in 23 that -- in that usage in this thing. 24 And I want -- because it seems to me that 25 that does not seem very appropriate, given what's going
831 on. You've only indicated that there was one (1) person 2 in the kiosk at the time, correct? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And you've also indicated that you 5 didn't see any firearms, correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And it doesn't seem that that 8 appropriately -- given that there's only one (1) person 9 and no firearms, that does not seem to be a very good 10 location to be used as a barricade as a result. 11 A: I may have used that term, police 12 term, "barricaded," very loosely. I -- I don't have any 13 specific knowledge as to why I used that word under that 14 circumstance. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you, Officer Martin, I 16 have no further questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Alexander. 19 Ms. Esmonde...? 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 22 Q: Good morning. 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde, I'm going 25 to be asking you some questions on behalf of the
841 Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: Now, you were placed -- you were 4 asked to camp in the Park during the summer of 1995 as a 5 result of intelligence that the Stoney Pointers were 6 interested in moving into the parklands; is that right? 7 A: I don't specifically would say that. 8 We were placed in the Park because of a concern for 9 public safety and to gather any intelligence or 10 information relevant to the Provincial Park or an 11 occupation of the Provincial Park. 12 Q: Can I take from the second half of 13 your comment that there was -- you were looking for 14 information as to whether or not they were planning on 15 moving into the Park? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: So you had some indication prior to 18 that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you've already described 21 for us yesterday some of the comments that were relayed 22 to you that reinforced that there did appear to be some 23 claim being asserted to the Park lands by the Stoney 24 Pointers? 25 A: Yes, ma'am.
851 Q: And the statements that you heard 2 were that the Park was 'our' land, not that it's 'my' 3 land, for example; there was a collective claim to the 4 Park lands? 5 A: Yes, ma'am, that's correct. 6 Q: Are you aware whether that -- that 7 particular information, the statements that you heard 8 about the collective claim to the Park lands, whether 9 that was relayed to Inspector Carson? 10 A: I'm not aware of that. There was, 11 you know, notes recorded in the log book that would have 12 been forwarded to the Command Post, but I'm not aware of 13 if that actually got to Inspector Carson. 14 Q: Do you know what -- what would have 15 been done with those logs, once they were created? 16 A: I don't know, ma'am, what -- at the 17 end of the day what or where those logs would have went, 18 or the continuity of them I couldn't comment on. 19 Q: Okay. And you didn't have any 20 personal conversation with Inspector Carson regarding the 21 comments that you heard? 22 A: No, ma'am, I did not. 23 Q: Okay. What about with Detective 24 Sergeant Wright? 25 A: That's possible.
861 Q: That's possible? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: Can you help me any further about 4 when such a conv -- such a conversation would have 5 happened prior to September 4th, for example? 6 A: I -- I -- Detective Sergeant Wright 7 was my immediate supervisor, and Command Post was updated 8 as I've indicated in my examination-in-chief, but I don't 9 recall, you know, who at the Command Post was updated 10 with that information, so it's possible it was Detective 11 Sergeant Wright. 12 Q: Okay. Would you have expected that 13 he would be aware of that information? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: Okay. You were taken this morning to 16 a transcript of a telephone call with Inspector Linton 17 from September 6th, early in the morning. 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: Do you remember that? And near the 20 end of that conversation Inspector Linton asked you about 21 whether there had been any activity in the kiosk? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: If you want to turn that up it's Tab 24 16. And you were provided that information as a result 25 of a direct request from Inspector Linton, it wasn't
871 information that you volunteered? 2 A: That's correct, ma'am. 3 Q: And you told him that there had been 4 no activity at all since shortly after midnight? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So there had been some activity 7 before midnight? 8 A: Again, I don't have that log in front 9 of me and I -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- believe there may have been people 12 in and out of there, but the specifics I can't say to 13 right now. 14 Q: Okay. We can surmise, though, from 15 the comment that you made to Inspector Linton, that there 16 had been some activity before midnight? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And there was a person in there at 19 elent -- (11) minutes past midnight? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And I take it, given the lighting 22 situation, it was -- you could tell when somebody came in 23 and out when the opened? 24 A: I don't know about when the door 25 opened.
881 Q: Okay. 2 A: I -- I would say that, you know, 3 there was a silhouette, as Mr. Worme described in the 4 examine -- you know, examination-in-chief, you could see 5 a silhouette of a person because of the back lighting in 6 behind the blind. 7 Q: So if they were walking in front of 8 the window -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- you would see them then? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it the activity 13 that you saw on that evening, before midnight on 14 September 5th and shortly after midnight on September 15 6th, that that wasn't something that alarmed you? 16 A: No, Ma'am. 17 Q: You didn't feel a need to call the 18 mobile command unit to let them know that there were some 19 males in the kiosk? 20 A: I've initiated that -- that one call 21 as I described to your other Friend and counsel there -- 22 Q: Right. But that -- 23 A: -- but aside from that I don't have 24 any independent recollection. 25 Q: Okay. I -- I'm focusing on the
891 evening of the early morning hours of September 6th. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: Okay? And you didn't initiate a 4 phone call to the mobile command unit to advise them of 5 activity in the kiosk at that time, right? 6 A: Not to my recollection. 7 Q: Now you also told us this morning 8 that following the shooting on the morning of September 9 7th, you were assigned to investigate, I believe, all 10 offences but attempt murder? I'm not sure if I got the 11 wording quite right there. 12 A: Yes. All of the peripheral 13 occurrences, or the collateral occurrences, I was 14 assigned to investigate. 15 Q: Okay. And were -- were those 16 offences against the OPP, that were alleged to have taken 17 place agai -- directed against the OPP? 18 A: They would have been any offence 19 outside of the main investigation, whether it involved 20 our Members or not. 21 Q: Okay. But were you investigating how 22 Cecil Bernard George, for example, came to have the 23 injuries that you observed? 24 A: No, Ma'am, I was not. 25 Q: And that was something that the SIU
901 was investigating? 2 A: I believe it was, but I can't answer 3 that with -- 4 Q: Okay, but that -- that was not part 5 of your task? 6 A: No, Ma'am, it was not. 7 Q: On the morning of September 7th or at 8 any time after that? 9 A: No, Ma'am, I was not. 10 Q: So I take it then, for example, you 11 didn't seize any batons from any of the ERT members to 12 check for blood or other indications that they may have 13 been used in an assault? 14 A: The baton I seized was that of -- of 15 Mr. McKnight's, but I didn't seize any other evidence 16 pertaining to that confrontation or assault or -- or that 17 event on Ipperwash on that night. 18 Q: And just one final area, the 19 documents that your counsel raised regarding your 20 investigation following September 7th. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: There -- just a moment. Okay, I want 23 to be careful about using names that have been redacted. 24 So there are some reports in there from cottage owners 25 who had a complaint when a vehicle was stolen.
911 A: Yes, ma'am, there was. 2 Q: Do you recall that? 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: Okay. And can you assist me, it's my 5 understanding that at least one (1), the female from that 6 couple, was very -- was very involved and was a leading 7 member of the ONFIRE group that organized following the 8 shooting. 9 Do -- do you have any knowledge of that? 10 A: I believe that to be correct, ma'am. 11 Q: Okay. And the male party, was he 12 also involved -- heavily involved in the organizing the 13 ONFIRE group? 14 A: That is possible; that's about all I 15 can say in relation to that. 16 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Those 17 are all my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 I think I'd like to take a morning break 20 now. Is that all right? 21 MR. CAMERON NEIL: It's fine by me. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. We'll 23 take a morning break now. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.
921 2 --- Upon recessing at 10:25 a.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 10:42 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Good morning, 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, Mr. Neil. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 13 Q: Good morning, officer. 14 A: Good morning, sir. 15 Q: My name is Cam Neil, I'm one of the 16 lawyers for the residents of Aazhoodena, also known as 17 Stoney Pointers. 18 I want to take you back to your undercover 19 detail back in August of 1995 and correct me if I'm 20 wrong, if I understand your evidence, you never had any 21 occasion to compromise your cover as an undercover 22 officer; is that correct? 23 A: That's correct, sir. 24 Q: Are you aware of any other officers 25 having to so compromise their cover during that time
931 frame? 2 A: Not during the time frames in which I 3 was there and I can't comment on the other operations. 4 Q: And you've testified that, over the 5 course of your undercover operation, you had occasion to 6 observe Dudley George, correct? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And you knew Dudley George? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And the activities that you observed 11 would have been reported to Mark Wright, correct? 12 A: They would have been recorded in the 13 campers' log and there was notifications completed to the 14 Command Post, following any events that were of 15 significance, and I cannot recall who, at the Command 16 Post, would have been advised at the time or who was 17 there. It's not indicated in the log, it's not indicated 18 in my notebook. 19 Q: So you have no independent 20 recollection? 21 A: As I said to Counsel earlier, you 22 know, obviously Detective Sergeant Wright was my 23 immediate supervisor, but I have no independent 24 recollection of times and which information and what that 25 information was and who it was relayed to.
941 Q: So I take it, then, you don't have 2 any recall of discussing Dudley George with Mark Wright 3 at all? 4 A: I don't have any specific recall of 5 that, no, sir. It is possible that we discussed that, 6 but I have no specific recall of that. 7 Q: So then you don't have any memory of 8 Mark Wright expressing any opinions of Dudley George? 9 A: No, sir, I do not. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I'd like to talk to you about a photo 14 album. While you were undercover in the Park, did you 15 ever make use of a photo album? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: What about when you were watching the 18 -- the videos, during your video watching detail? 19 A: I don't recall using it at that time 20 either, sir. 21 Q: Do you recall using it at any time? 22 A: I recall there being a -- a photo 23 brief but I don't recall at what point in times I would 24 have used that, if I used it at all. 25 Q: Do you recall -- see if I can help
951 you out. 2 Would it have been before the shooting of 3 Dudley George or after the shooting of Dudley George, or 4 you just can't recall? 5 A: I believe it was in existence before, 6 but the specifics, I can't recall. 7 Q: So you didn't take part in its 8 compilation? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: You didn't take part in identifying 11 who should be in that photo album? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: This might be obvious, but do you 14 know what the purpose of the photo album was? 15 A: I would say to identify any of the 16 persons who were present within the Provincial Park or on 17 the Department of National Defence property at CFB 18 Ipperwash. 19 Q: And beyond identifying them, any 20 other reason? 21 A: I would know of no other reason, sir. 22 Q: We've -- we've heard the name Jim 23 Moses throughout the Inquiry. Does that name ring a bell 24 for you, the name Jim Moses? 25 A: No, sir.
961 Q: Were you aware of any informants 2 posing as journalists over the course of August and 3 September 1995? 4 A: No, sir, I was not. 5 Q: Were you aware of the involvement of 6 CSIS or the Ontario version of CSIS during that time? 7 A: Not during that time, sir, no. 8 Q: You came to become aware of that? 9 A: I -- I believe I've seen that 10 somewhere in an -- in an SIU report but not during that 11 time, sir, no. 12 Q: In going through your intelligence 13 report I came across an acronym, what I think is an 14 acronym and it's N-A-I. And I'm wondering if you can 15 help me out with what that means. 16 If you can't we can -- we can turn it up 17 for you but do you have any idea what NAI stands for? 18 A: I could only speculate that that 19 might be North American Indian. 20 Q: Okay. Let's just take a look, it's 21 your Tab 6. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: In particular page 69 -- sorry, it's
971 Tab 6 which is Exhibit P-14 -- 413 page 69. This is the 2 CFB intelligence report. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Now, there's some -- some entries 5 here. There are several of them. On duty is Martin 6 which I take could be you. I know there's another Martin 7 but I -- I believe this is you. 8 A: No, sir, this not me, this is -- 9 Q: The other Martin? 10 A: This is Detective Constable Bob 11 Martin so... 12 Q: Okay. That's fine. In any event you 13 may be able to help me out here. You'll see the -- the 14 third row down where it says: 15 "Vehicle Chev Cavalier four (4) door 16 blue Ontario?" 17 Then it's redacted and it says: 18 "One (1) NAI female, older, entered 19 beach area." 20 And there's some further examples six (6) 21 rows down: 22 "Pickup GMC. One (1) male, one (1) 23 female NAI Ontario." 24 And there's a couple other examples on 25 that page. Feel free to take a moment to look at it
981 if... 2 A: Yes, I've seen them there, sir. 3 Q: So can you -- can you help me out 4 then with that acronym? 5 A: I believe it is the adjective that I 6 described to you earlier. Again they were not used by 7 me. 8 Q: It's fair to say that the -- the 9 events that were recorded in this intelligence brief 10 weren't solely events involving First Nations persons is 11 that correct? I know a tough question but generally 12 speaking? 13 A: I believe they were recording 14 activities in the area. 15 Q: And some of them often very mundane 16 activities? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And I think you also agreed with My 19 Friend, Mr. Worme that there were also some very mundane 20 activities recorded during your video detail? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: For example making sandwiches? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: If I could turn to a -- a different - 25 - slightly different topic we've heard evidence of
991 certain mugs and certain T-shirts? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: You're -- you know what I'm speaking 4 of when I mention the mugs and T-shirts? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Did you ever have occasion to 7 purchase a mug or a T-shirt? 8 A: I did not purchase a mug, I did 9 purchase a T-shirt. 10 Q: And do you still have that T-shirt 11 with you? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: What's happened to it? 14 A: That T-shirt was long since 15 destroyed. 16 Q: Sorry? 17 A: It was long since destroyed. 18 Q: Were you told to destroy the T-shirt? 19 A: No, sir, I did that of my own accord. 20 Q: And why was that? 21 A: At the time that I purchased the T- 22 shirt I had no knowledge that -- that the eagle feather 23 horizontally positioned on the T-shirt was offensive in 24 any manner to the First Nations community. 25 As soon as I found that out the T-shirt
1001 was destroyed and I certainly apologize to any member of 2 the First Nation community that I may have offended at 3 any time that I wore that T-shirt, but, at the time of 4 the purchase I did not know it was offensive. 5 Q: And we've also heard in your evidence 6 reference to a warrior flag? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And I'm wondering if over the course 9 of your undercover operation if you ever heard of it 10 referred to as a solidarity flag as opposed to a warrior 11 flag? 12 A: I believe I may have heard that term 13 but I'm not sure where I've heard that term. It might 14 been a native solidarity flag but it may have been just 15 some -- something that I've acquired through the years of 16 policing as to what the flag was or what it represented. 17 Q: So not necessarily back in 1995, 18 September 1995? 19 A: Yes, sir, that would be speculation. 20 Q: Thank you very much, sir, those are 21 all my questions. 22 Thank you, Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 Mr. George...? 25 Mr. JONATHAN GEORGE: No thank you.
1011 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good morning, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning. I haven't seen you for a while. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: It feels like I never 10 left, Mr. Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 13 Q: Good morning, sir. 14 A: Good morning, sir. 15 Q: My name is Julian Roy and I'm one (1) 16 of the counsel for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto. 17 A: Okay, sir. 18 Q: And -- and I just have a few 19 questions for you this morning. 20 And -- and what I want to start in terms 21 of my focus is on the reporting lines in terms of how 22 you're reporting intelligence information up your chain 23 of command at various periods of time during the 24 incident, all right? 25 A: Okay, sir.
1021 Q: Okay. And I just -- you -- you 2 touched on this in your evidence but I'm just seeking a 3 little more clarity on a couple of points, all right? 4 And what I want to focus on first is on 5 the period prior to September 1995 because as I 6 understand your evidence you were involved in -- in an 7 intelligence capacity prior to that; is that correct? 8 A: Investigative intelligence capacity, 9 yes, sir. 10 Q: Okay. And in terms of how -- how 11 matters are structured and how information is reported in 12 September 1995 as I understand the evidence there may be 13 some changes in terms of how that was -- how that was 14 conducted; is that correct? 15 A: I'm not aware of what changes -- 16 Q: All right. 17 A: -- were made. 18 Q: Okay. Well, I'll direct you to some 19 documents later on and -- and perhaps it'll refresh your 20 memory. 21 But in any event, prior to September 1995 22 as I understand your evidence you were reporting directly 23 to Mark Wright; is that correct? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: So in other words, there wasn't any
1031 sort of intelligent -- intelligence analyst who you would 2 provide information to prior to it getting to Mark 3 Wright; is that correct? 4 A: I would not have -- Detective 5 Sergeant Wright was my immediate supervisor. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Intelligence reports indicate that 8 I've -- I gather from those reports that I've contacted 9 somebody with -- from within the intelligence community. 10 I don't have any recollection as to who that was. 11 Q: Okay. But in terms of how the 12 information flowed as in -- in the ordinary course what 13 didn't happen was that you would report information to 14 somebody who was responsible for gathering all the 15 intelligence and analysing it before it would get to the 16 Command team, is that correct? 17 A: Generally, yes, sir. 18 Q: Now, did you get any direction from 19 Provincial Headquarters from their intelligence branch as 20 to how you were to do your job in August of 1995? 21 A: I did not, sir, no. 22 Q: Okay. What about at the regional 23 level in terms of the regional intelligence branch? 24 Did you get any direction from them as to 25 how you were to do your job?
1041 A: I did not, sir. 2 Q: Now, yesterday you made some passing 3 reference to the interview which is now Exhibit 1194 4 which is at Tab 4 of your book of documents. 5 I'm not really going to ask you to -- to 6 pull it out or look at it in great detail but this is the 7 interview with the two (2) civilians concerning the 8 interaction with their -- with one (1) of their children 9 and certain individuals in and around the Provincial 10 Park. 11 Do you recall that statement that you 12 took? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Okay. And in your evidence 15 yesterday, you made -- you mentioned that you couldn't 16 comment on the reliability of that information. 17 Do you remember saying that? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Okay. So I take it from that 20 comment, what you were not doing -- what you were not 21 doing was performing any kind of intelligence analysis of 22 your own, concerning the information that you were 23 receiving. 24 Is that correct? 25 A: That is partially correct. I think
1051 the reason that I -- I said that as well, is because that 2 this would have been basically a third hand statement 3 that -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- this individual had talked to a 6 group of kids. One (1) of the kids there then talked to 7 his parents, and those parents are then talking to me and 8 providing that statement. 9 Q: All right. But as I -- am I right in 10 describing your role as -- as follows. You were more in 11 the business of gathering information as to performing 12 some kind of intelligence analysis on that information, 13 is that -- 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. And in terms of reporting 16 directly to Mark Wright with the information that you 17 gathered, you didn't understand that Mark Wright was in 18 the business of performing intelligence analysis? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Okay. So in other words, the 21 intelligence information that you were gathering and 22 passing to -- to Mark Wright, wasn't the subject of any 23 intelligence analysis as far as you understood, at least 24 prior to September 1995, correct? 25 A: Partially, again reminding you that I
1061 wasn't passing on intelligence to Mark Wright. 2 Q: Okay. Now, there's a reference in 3 the -- in the statement that you took to a sawed off 4 rocket launcher. 5 Do you remember that? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Okay. Have you ever heard of a sawed 8 off rocket launcher? 9 A: No, sir, and I -- I picked up on that 10 when I was reading that statement and I'm not sure if 11 that's an inaudible, but no, I've never heard of a sawed 12 off rocket launcher. 13 Q: Okay. So you didn't make any 14 inquiries as to whether or not such an item could exist? 15 A: No, sir. No, sir. 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: Now, Exhibit P-421, I've 17 asked the Registrar to put that document before both you, 18 Mr. Commissioner, and the Witness. 19 And -- and for Counsel, I don't have 20 copies for other Counsel, but this was Tab 34 of Mr. 21 Speck's documents. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, you got 23 the document number, that's -- 24 MR. JULIAN ROY: It's the meeting of 25 September 1st --
1071 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- 1995 at 9:00 a.m. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. It's 4 3000574. 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you very much, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 10 Q: And if you go into the fourth page of 11 that document. Are you on page 4; they're not numbered, 12 but if you go four (4) pages into that document? 13 A: Yes, sir, I'm there. 14 Q: The first complete paragraph at the 15 top, it says: 16 "Intelligence will be under Trevor." 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: All right, so we're on the same page. 20 Trevor is Trevor Richardson, is that correct? 21 A: That's correct, sir. 22 Q: All right. And this document dated 23 September 1st, 1995 as I understand it, was a meeting 24 that planned how the chain of command would operate in 25 respect of what was anticipated to be an occupation of
1081 the Provincial Park the following weekend. 2 Is that your understanding? 3 A: This is the first time I've ever seen 4 this plan, so I haven't actually reviewed the entire 5 contents of it, but it appears to be an operational plan, 6 yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. And if you look at -- at 8 the top of the page, intelligence -- after intelligence 9 will be under Trevor. 10 "Analyst will be under Trevor as well. 11 That person will not have any definite 12 responsibilities. Will be computer 13 literate to assist with intelligence -- 14 to assist with intelligence information 15 to be entered into a data base. This 16 will be Jimmy Dyke." 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 20 you go on, I noticed this Witness wasn't at the meeting. 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 23 correct? 24 MR. JULIAN ROY: That's right. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And this is
1091 the first time he's seen the document? 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes, it is. I'm going 3 to be asking him about what, if anything, had changed 4 concerning his reporting relationship. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just 6 wonder how the document in any way connects to him. He 7 wasn't there, he didn't see it -- 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- before 10 this minute. 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 13 okay. 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: I want to ask him 15 whether or not -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on, I 17 don't want to interrupt you. 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: All right. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 20 to make sure that I understand that. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 23 Q: Okay. Following September 1st, 1995, 24 do you remember being given any further instruction as to 25 how you were to report intelligence information
1101 concerning this incident? 2 A: I have no recollection of that. 3 Q: Okay. So you weren't told -- in 4 other words, you weren't told to -- that you were now to 5 report intelligence information through an analyst of any 6 kind? 7 A: I have no recollection of that. 8 Q: Now, you understand, in terms of 9 intelligence generally, intelligence is more than just 10 gathering up information isn't it? 11 A: There's different aspects of an 12 intelligence investigation, yes, sir. 13 Q: Yes. Another aspect would be after 14 you've gathered the information to do some form of 15 analysis on the information, correct? 16 A: That's correct, sir. 17 Q: All right. And one of the things 18 that you want to do is you want to see if -- if you're 19 getting the same kind of information from a variety of 20 different sources, correct? 21 A: That could be an avenue that could be 22 pursued. 23 Q: All right. And if it's in that type 24 of character, you might consider that information to be 25 more reliable; is that correct?
1111 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. And there's a number of 3 different avenues that you can pursue in intelligence in 4 trying to assess its reliability; is that correct? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. And then after the 7 analysis is conducted, as you understand how intelligence 8 works, it has to be packaged or presented in a certain 9 way to a decision maker; is that correct? 10 A: Yes, ultimately a report would be 11 completed and forwarded onto, whether it would be persons 12 overseeing the investigation or case managers, often it 13 would be routed up. 14 Q: All right. So what you don't want to 15 do is you don't want to flood the decision-maker with a 16 lot of different and potentially conflicting information. 17 What you want to do is prepare a report that's, sort of, 18 packages it in a way that the decision-maker can use; is 19 that correct? 20 A: That would be fair, sir. 21 Q: Did you have any dealings with 22 Officer Dyke during this incident? 23 A: I knew Officer Dyke but, you know, I 24 recall seeing him there, but I don't recall the specifics 25 of any conversations that I might have had with him.
1121 Q: All right. Now, you told Mr. Worme 2 yesterday that you may have conveyed information 3 regarding gunfire to the Park Warden, Mr. Kobayashi. Do 4 you remember that? 5 A: It wouldn't have been to Mr. 6 Kobayashi, it would have been to one of the park wardens. 7 I believe Mr. Kobayashi was a Park Superintendent. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: It would have been one of the actual 10 park wardens patrolling the Park, not Mr. Kobayashi. 11 Q: Okay. So that might have been Mr. 12 Matheson? 13 A: It could have been Mr. Matheson. I - 14 - you know, I think, like -- as I said to Mr. Worme 15 yesterday, that it's likely that I would have passed that 16 information onto whoever the park wardens were on that 17 date as I probably would have felt that it would have 18 been something of a personal safety issue. 19 Q: All right. And the information that 20 you gathered was in the course of -- of your duties in 21 terms of gathering intelligence; is that correct? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. And is it -- am I right 24 in saying that beyond advising the park wardens you might 25 have advised other people given this concern about safety
1131 that you had? 2 A: I would have to ask you who would you 3 classify as other people? 4 Q: Well, I -- I'm going to ask you -- 5 other police officers for example, other rank and file 6 officers. 7 A: I -- I don't recall who was there on 8 that night. I recall notifying the Command Post and -- 9 and I believe I probably would have spoke to the park 10 wardens. 11 If there were other officers that happened 12 to be in the area, it's very possible I would have shared 13 that information with them as well, as I felt it would 14 have been a personal safety issue. Outside of that I 15 have no independent recollection. 16 Q: That's fine. Did you get any 17 specific authority from your superiors that you were to 18 convey this type of information to rank and file officers 19 or to civilians? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: All right. Did anybody -- in terms 22 of your training in intelligence, were -- any direction 23 that you might have received concerning this incident, 24 were you ever given any direction that you were to 25 refrain from passing around intelligence information
1141 outside of the official chain of command? 2 A: Well, I think that almost falls into 3 the area of our oath where we wouldn't be sharing any 4 confidential information to any outside sources; the oath 5 that we take as a police officer. 6 So that's not likely that that would have 7 been said to us because we would have been more than well 8 aware of the sensitivity of information or intelligence 9 of that nature. 10 Q: But that oath didn't prevent you from 11 conveying the information to the park wardens at a 12 minimum, correct? 13 A: To the park wardens, no, sir. 14 Q: Okay. And is that because you sort 15 of viewed them as -- as part of the police team that was 16 involved in -- in dealing with the incident? 17 A: I believe park wardens are actually 18 peace officers or were considered to be peace officers as 19 well. 20 Q: Did anybody ever give you any 21 direction or training concerning the potential downsides 22 of -- of conveying intelligence information outside of 23 the actual reporting lines? 24 A: My background probably would have -- 25 I would have through various courses that I attended as a
1151 drug enforcement officer obviously would have dealt with 2 some aspects of your question there, sir, so yeah, but 3 actually nobody on those occasions would have told me 4 that. 5 Q: Okay. And that there might be a 6 problem with conveying raw information that had not been 7 analysed yet more broadly beyond the chain of command; 8 did anybody ever tell you anything about that concern? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Okay. Those are my questions, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Roy. 14 Mr. Roland...? I haven't asked you, Mr. 15 Roland, how long? Excuse me, thank you, Mr. Roy. 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 18 you think you might be, Mr. Roland? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Maybe twenty (20) 20 minutes. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 23 Q: Sergeant Martin, if you could turn to 24 page 26 of your notes; that's July 30/'95. Page 26 and 25 27 is what I'm looking at.
1161 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And you indicated to Mr. Worme that 3 there was -- these notes referred to trying to contact an 4 informant. I don't, of course, want you to reveal any 5 information concerning your informant, but do I have it 6 from your notes that you were actually attempting to 7 contact a couple of informants to see if you could obtain 8 information or assistance? 9 A: Yes, at 12:25 on the 30th of July at 10 the bottom of page 26. I referred to this in my 11 examination-in-chief that I received a call from 12 Detective Staff Sergeant Wright requesting information on 13 intelligence and possible use of an informant at CFB 14 Ipperwash, reference Native occupation and possible 15 intended aggressive movement, discussed use of an 16 informant, and then I subsequently completed some 17 actions. 18 Q: And did that -- did those actions on 19 your part as recorded indicate that you attempted to 20 contact a couple of informants? 21 A: At least one (1) informant on that 22 occasion, sir, yes. 23 Q: Yes, all right. And I gather that 24 wasn't successful? 25 A: That's correct, sir.
1171 Q: Now, let me then go if I could to Mr. 2 Worme's question about your function in being an 3 undercover camper in the Park as you'd been instructed on 4 July 30th. 5 And you've told us that one (1) of your 6 functions was to gather information or intelligence. The 7 other function you've indicated was to assure public 8 safety in the event that something occurred that 9 threatened persons' safety or security enough that you 10 would -- you would leave your undercover role and -- and 11 exercise your role as a -- as a police officer, right? 12 A: That's correct, sir. 13 Q: But I gather from your answers you 14 also had, perhaps, related to -- to both functions, that 15 is your undercover function and your public safety and 16 security function, the role of trying to keep the Park 17 campers and the occupiers apart? 18 A: Yes, that role or function developed 19 during the first -- first few days; that that was 20 obviously a concern as well. 21 Q: Yes. Now -- 22 A: That specifically was not addressed 23 at the briefing -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- but did become part of our role in
1181 the camping capacity. 2 Q: I see. And I take it that role would 3 have -- would still leave you in your undercover role; 4 that is, you wouldn't disclose your position as a police 5 officer in carrying out that function? 6 A: Hopefully not, sir, yes. 7 Q: Yes. And did you actually perform 8 that role, from time to time, in discouraging, I take it, 9 campers from leaving the Park ground and going on to the 10 CFB beach area? 11 A: Yes, sir, I did. 12 Q: I see. And was that for the purpose 13 of trying to keep the two (2) groups apart, to avoid any 14 kind of more serious public safety or security issue? 15 A: Yes, sir, to -- to prevent -- 16 Q: Incidents? 17 A: -- prevent incidents or the potential 18 for incidents. 19 Q: Right. And were you successful, from 20 time to time, in doing that, in discouraging campers from 21 going onto the CFB beach? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1191 Q: Now, you were asked by Mr. Worme 2 about the issue of being recognized as a police officer 3 in your role as an undercover officer posing as a camper. 4 And we know that you had policed the 5 Forest area six (6) years earlier for a couple of years. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: But you indicated that that was an 8 issue that was discussed, that is that you would be 9 recognized, and it was decided that you should -- should 10 perform this undercover role in any event, even though 11 there might be some risk of you being recognized? 12 A: That's correct, sir, that was weighed 13 upon. 14 Q: And what -- what played in -- what 15 factors played into the consideration of whether or not 16 you'd be recognized? 17 A: The fact that it had been some time 18 since I was there. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: The fact that my appearance was 21 different at the time. 22 Q: Your appearance was different? 23 A: Appearance was different. 24 Q: How was your appearance different? 25 A: My hair was substantially longer I --
1201 Q: Longer than today? 2 A: Much longer than today, yes, sir. 3 Q: Yes. Had you come from assignments 4 as a -- working in drugs and -- and undercover in the 5 drug operations? 6 A: At that time, I had an extensive 7 background in drug enforcement and drug enforcement 8 investigations, although I had not per se conducted any 9 undercover drug operations. 10 Q: I see, okay. And what else -- what 11 other factors were considered in whether or not you 12 should perform this function, in light of your 13 involvement with the community some six (6) years 14 earlier? 15 A: Well, I think that the -- the ability 16 to certainly recognize any individuals who was -- was a 17 key factor, as well. 18 Q: What about the nature of the 19 interaction that you anticipated you'd have with the 20 individuals that you were seeking to observe and gather 21 information about? 22 A: I don't understand your question, 23 sir. 24 Q: Well, in your -- when your drug -- 25 when you're in drug enforcement you're often in first
1211 hand, close proximity to the persons with whom you're 2 interacting. 3 What was -- what was anticipated was the 4 nature of your interaction with the people that you were 5 observing? 6 A: Well, contrary to most undercover 7 operations where you're looking to -- to gather evidence 8 to pursue criminal charges or trafficking charges or 9 things of that nature, there's generally a lot of -- or 10 you're moving towards personal contact with those 11 individuals, this -- 12 Q: This is in your -- 13 A: -- undercover capacity -- 14 Q: This -- 15 A: -- where -- 16 Q: Sorry, this is as a role as a drug 17 enforcement officer? 18 A: That's correct, sir. And in this 19 capacity we really weren't, you know, trying to further 20 any investigation or develop any criminal code offences 21 through contact with them. It was primarily, you know, 22 sit back, watch, observe, and gather intelligence. 23 Q: So is it fair to say that in this 24 under cover role as a camper, you were -- you didn't 25 anticipate that you'd be --you'd have close interaction,
1221 interrelations and conversations and so on with the 2 persons you were observing? 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: Right. And thus, there was less of a 5 -- a risk that you'd be recognized? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Now, let me take you to, if I could, 8 to the monitoring that you undertook on September 5th of 9 the two (2) video feeds. 10 And as I understand it from your evidence, 11 that you were in a room in the Grand Bend Detachment -- 12 A: That's correct, sir. 13 Q: -- and while you were doing this, we 14 see that you're doing it generally late at night and 15 early morning hours. 16 There was, I gather, few, if any, other 17 officers present in that Detachment? 18 A: That's correct, sir. 19 Q: So as far as you were aware, I take 20 it, and certainly when you received the call on the early 21 morning hours of September 7th, you were alone, as far as 22 you were aware, in the Detachment? 23 A: That's correct, sir. 24 Q: And in this small office, I gather 25 there would be two (2) monitors.
1231 A: That's right, sir. 2 Q: One for the maintenance shed and one 3 for the kiosk. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And your job -- and you were there 6 alone? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And your job was to look at both of 9 those monitors? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And you had two (2) separate logs? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And you were to fill in information 14 on those logs as you observed them on the monitors? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: All right. And, Mr. Commissioner, 17 we've had reference to the kiosk log which unfortunately 18 the Witness doesn't have available to him to refer to, 19 and that's been a bit of a problem this morning in taking 20 this evidence from him. 21 I can tell you, we've looked for it. It 22 may be in the database but we haven't been able to find 23 it. It's not that we haven't tried to but we made our 24 efforts and we haven't been able to find it. 25 That search will, as all these searches
1241 are, is ongoing, but it's difficult, as you would 2 appreciate, Mr. Commissioner, because it's all 3 handwritten and so it's difficult, it doesn't -- word 4 searches don't come up. 5 In any event, you're doing this and I take 6 it you -- when you're sitting there monitoring these two 7 (2) screens, you -- you are forced to avert your eyes 8 from the screens to fill in your log? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: And so when you're doing the physical 11 exercise of making the entries into these two (2) logs, I 12 gather you're -- you're not looking at the screen. 13 A: That's correct, sir. 14 Q: And so it can happen then, from time 15 to time, that as you're filling in a log, you may miss 16 something that -- that appears on the screen momentarily? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. And if I could -- could 19 we put up... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: This is Exhibit P-42A, and it's 24 shown, you'll see, at -- at 2:51 and 41 seconds on, that 25 would be the early morning hours of September the 6th,
1251 1995. 2 And I've shown you this still of the video 3 picture. It's not in your -- no, it's not in your book. 4 If you can just look at it. 5 And when I showed that to you, was that 6 the first time you recalled seeing that? 7 A: The first time I saw that was at your 8 offices in Toronto. 9 Q: Yes. You don't recall at all seeing 10 it at the time that you were there in the monitoring? 11 A: No, sir, I didn't see that there. 12 Q: And if we can turn to Tab 15 -- 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Sorry, the Exhibit is P-1200 and the 17 -- it's, if you turn in to -- to the document that is -- 18 actually if we take the -- do you see the font number at 19 the top? If I can read it, it's 2800018. Are you with 20 me? 21 Do you see up in the top left hand corner, 22 very faintly, there's a number in a box? 23 A: Yes. I believe my three hole punch 24 has been punched through the number but -- 25 Q: That's helpful.
1261 A: -- I believe I'll get the number 2 there. Page 3? 3 Q: It's numbered page 3, handwritten 4 page 3. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And if you go to 02:51, which is the 7 time that we see on this video, I see you've made an 8 entry. 9 A: Yes, sir, I have. 10 Q: And that says: 11 "Female party in and out." 12 A: Yes, sir, it does. 13 Q: And does that help -- that entry help 14 to explain why you may -- you appear to have missed this 15 -- seeing this? 16 A: Well, this photo reflects a time of 17 2:51:41, and I can surmise that at 2:51 sometime, as this 18 is the latter part of the minute, sometime prior to that 19 I was making a notation about a female party in and out, 20 and I did not see this at all. 21 Q: And also it could -- it's -- it's 22 also possible, we don't have the kiosk log, you could 23 have been making a notation in the kiosk log at that time 24 as well? 25 A: That's very possible too, sir.
1271 Q: Right. Right. If you had seen this 2 -- would you have made a notation if you'd seen this? 3 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 4 Q: And if you'd seen it would you have 5 done anything else? 6 A: Yes, with the detail that's reflected 7 in this picture or on that video, I certainly would have 8 notified the Command Post -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- of my observations. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. Let me take you, 12 if I could, to P-1184, it's the OMPPAC occurrence report 13 that shows you as -- as having filed it on September the 14 9th, '95. It's been referred -- it's the Gerald George 15 Occurrence Report. 16 Do you have that? 17 A: I -- I don't have that in front of me 18 right now, sir, no. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: This is P-1184. Now, Mr. 24 Commissioner, for the record, when George Speck testified 25 we identified OMPPAC as the computer program and one (1)
1281 which this was entered. Unfortunately, we didn't get the 2 name right, and let me just, for the record, get the 3 right name; it's called the Ontario Municipal Provincial 4 Police Automated Cooperative, O-M-P-P-A-C. 5 Well, I -- I didn't help Mr. Worme on the 6 error. He -- Mr. Worme says he's in error, I think I led 7 him down that path, so. 8 In any event, we now have it, I think, 9 correctly, for the record. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 11 system that's now changed or been replaced? 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's been -- yeah. It 13 was new then -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- and it's now old. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's now out of date; so 18 it had its time and it's come and gone. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: And you were asked by Mr. Worme about 22 this and -- and whether or not you, in the course of 23 entering this, would have looked at the interview report 24 of Gerald George taken by Sam Poole, and you said you 25 didn't recall but that's something that may have
1291 happened? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: We've -- we've heard evidence from 4 George Speck who was called in to do an occurrence report 5 from the -- the interview report of Gerald George that he 6 believes he -- his testimony was that he believes he 7 prepared one, a handwritten occurrence report, but that 8 it wasn't entered into the computer by -- into the OMPPAC 9 system by him at the time. 10 Were you, on September the 9th, tasked to 11 enter occurrence reports into the OMPPAC system? 12 A: Yes, sir, I was. 13 Q: And do you recall whether or not you 14 were given handwritten occurrence reports to so enter at 15 the time? 16 A: I believe that that's exactly what 17 was occurring, that we had an old LE139 occurrence report 18 which were handwritten. And because there were so many 19 members present and involved in the -- the ongoing 20 investigation, that probably what was happening was they 21 were handwriting their occurrences and putting them in a 22 tray, and then I would be taking them from that tray and 23 adding them to the OMPPAC database. 24 Q: And -- and that's what this -- this 25 Exhibit P-1184 seems to indicate when it says, "filed by"
1301 and then indicates you September the 9th? 2 A: That's correct, sir. 3 Q: Now, you indicated when you got a 4 phone call on the early morning hours of September the 5 7th in which the person, the caller, said, I'm going to 6 kill all you assholes, or words to that effect, that you 7 were concerned, I take it, for your own safety? 8 A: Yes, sir, I was. 9 Q: And -- and were you concerned to the 10 extent that the caller knew where that -- the caller was 11 calling? 12 A: I believe so, because the Grand Bend 13 Detachment was a 238 2345 exchange, which was different 14 than the Forest Detachment, which was a 786 exchange. 15 So the person calling would have known 16 that they were calling specifically to the Grand Bend 17 Detachment. 18 Q: So the caller placed the call 19 specifically to a number specific to the Grand Bend 20 Detachment and you were the officer there present at the 21 time? 22 A: That's correct, sir. 23 Q: I take it. And being -- and being 24 tasked with observing the monitors and keeping the log, I 25 take it then you wouldn't know whether anybody was
1311 arriving or not, to the Detachment? 2 A: That's correct, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I -- from my notes, Mr. Worme I think 7 just slightly misspoke when he talked about you taking a 8 statement from Constable Watt who he said transported 9 Cecil Bernard George by ambulance to the hospital. 10 We know from the record that it was -- 11 actually transported Nicholas Cotrelle. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: I think ... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Yeah, yeah. And Boon I think as 18 well, who transported Nicholas Cotrelle. So, but I just 19 thought you didn't -- you didn't make any -- any 20 particular point of that mistake, I take it. 21 You recognized that when -- when you took 22 statements from them, they transported who they say they 23 transported in their statements? 24 A: I requested a statement from 25 Constable Boon.
1321 Q: Yes. 2 A: But I did not take a statement from 3 Constable Boon. 4 Q: Okay. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now, with respect to the sawed off 9 rocket launcher, you said you think that's an inaudible. 10 What do you mean by an inaudible? 11 A: I think they may have understood -- 12 or misunderstood, whoever transcribed the tape -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- may have -- may have 15 misinterpreted that word, I'm not sure, or I may have 16 erred in my question to the individual. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I would have to actually listen to 19 the tape to make that determination. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Just one last question to tie up some 24 slight loose end. If you can go to your notes of August 25 the 10th, '95, at page 42.
1331 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: We'll -- we see that there's a -- 5 you've recorded in there a good deal of traffic by -- 6 sorry, let me take you to Tab 12. I've got the wrong 7 location. It's the camping log at Tab 12. 8 A: I have it here, sir. 9 Q: You've got that? And you've recorded 10 on the 10th of August that there appears to be a good 11 deal of activity throughout the afternoon, people coming 12 and going, you'll see at the bottom of that first page, 13 two (2) tractors, grading attachments, activity, and so 14 on. 15 And you go over on the next page to report 16 later on the 10th and early morning hours of the 11th, a 17 dump truck in and out several times. 18 You see that? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Were you able to observe at all what 21 that activity concerned, what that dump truck was doing 22 and what all that activity was about? 23 A: The activity was centered around the 24 camp -- camp fire area where the flag was at, but I can't 25 determine what all the activity was about, no, and I
1341 can't recall what that was. 2 Q: And is that because you didn't go to 3 that location to try and determine what it was? 4 A: Well, we didn't, yeah, proceed right 5 on to the Department of National Defence property. We 6 did have access to make some observations from the 7 water. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: But we didn't proceed down too 10 closely. 11 Q: All right. Thank you, those are my 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 14 Mr. Roland. 15 Mr. Worme, do you have any re-examination? 16 MR. DONALD WORME: I do not have any 17 re-examination. I'd like to convey our thanks and 18 appreciation to Officer Martin however, for attending and 19 providing his testimony. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much, Officer. 22 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 23 24 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 25
1351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very kindly. Ms. Hensel has asked for a short five (5) 3 minute recess to set up; is that all right? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We shall 6 have a short five (5) minute recess. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 8 for five (5) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 11:39 a.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 morning. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: The Commission 20 calls as its next witness, Larry Parks. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good day, 22 Mr. Parks. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Parks. 24 MR. LARRY PARKS: Good morning. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, do you prefer to
1361 swear on the Bible or affirm? 2 MR. LARRY PARKS: On the Bible. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Could 4 state your name in full for the record please? 5 MR. LARRY PARKS: Larry John Parks. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 7 8 LARRY JOHN PARKS, Sworn 9 10 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 11 Q: Good morning, Sergeant Parks. 12 A: Good morning. 13 Q: We're going to begin this morning by 14 taking you a bit through your -- your professional 15 background and I'd ask you to turn to Tab 1 of the binder 16 of documents in front of you. 17 Do your recognize the document that -- 18 that appears there? 19 A: It's my resume. 20 Q: Okay. And I'd ask that Sergeant 21 Parks' resume be entered as the next exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1207, Your Honor. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1207: Document Number 2005556. 25 Curriculum Vitae of Larry J.
1371 Parks. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Thank you. I note in your -- your 5 resume that you became a Member of the OPP in November of 6 1975? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And you received your orientation 9 training at the OPP Training Center in Toronto? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That was also in November of 1975? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then you subsequently received, 14 or underwent recruit training at the Police College in 15 Aylmer, Ontario in 1976? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: All right. You were also initially 18 stationed in 1975 at the Forest Detachment? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you tell me what -- what your 21 position was? 22 A: I was a road constable when I started 23 in 1975. 24 Q: Okay. In 1975. Okay. I also note 25 that in 1983 you became a member of the District 1 Crowd
1381 Control Unit which later became in 1994, the Emergency 2 Response Team? 3 A: Yes. Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And that you received -- you 5 took a crowd control course in 1983 at CFB London. 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And also underwent Emergency Response 8 Team training in 1994 at CFB Meaford -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- as noted on the second page of 11 your resume? Now, your duties as a member of the ERT, 12 you performed those concurrently with your duties as a 13 road constable; is that correct? 14 A: Yes. The ERT was a part-time 15 position. 16 Q: Okay. And in terms of your role on 17 ERT or Crowd Control Unit, you've been a member since 18 1983 and you became a team leader from 1994 to 1996; is 19 that correct? 20 A: I was an assistant team leader in 21 1996. 22 Q: In 1996. In 1994 -- okay, so you 23 were merely a team member from 1994 to 1996. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I apologize. So you were an
1391 assistant team leader from 1996 to -- from 1996 to 2004; 2 is that correct? 3 A: That is correct. 4 Q: And a team leader from February 5 through October 2004? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And are you currently a member 8 of the ERT? 9 A: No. I retired in October of 2004. 10 Q: All right, thank you. Okay, turning 11 back to your -- your duties as a constable, I note that 12 you were transferred to Pinery Park in 1993, due to 13 amalgamations -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and reorganization within the -- 16 the OPP? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then you were transferred shortly 19 thereafter to Grand Bend? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: That's correct. And you were 22 promoted to acting sergeant in March of 1997? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: Okay. And to Sergeant in December of 25 1998?
1401 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And had you performed duties 3 as an acting sergeant prior to March of 1997? 4 A: During the summer of 1993, I was an 5 acting sergeant at Forest Detachment. 6 Q: All right. And we will return to 7 that time period shortly. Thanks. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And is that the only time, prior to 10 1997 you fulfilled those duties? 11 A: Yes, that's the only time. 12 Q: Okay. And you're currently a 13 community sergeant at the Lambton Detachment; is that 14 correct? 15 A: Yes, I am. 16 Q: Can you describe for us briefly what 17 a community sergeant does? 18 A: I'm in charge of the administration 19 of Forest and Grand Bend Detachments. I deal with the 20 local politicians and I have some operational duties to - 21 - to Grand Bend summer officer during the summer months, 22 obviously. 23 Q: Thank you. All right. So while you 24 were stationed in Forest, Ontario, or at the Forest 25 Detachment, you were there for a fairly lengthy period of
1411 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Can you speak to the experience you 4 had in dealing with First Nations communities during that 5 period? 6 A: When I started in November of '75, 7 there was one First Nation constable on Kettle Point. We 8 had a Zone 4 which was the Kettle Point area, First 9 Nation area. 10 We assisted when the First Nation 11 constable -- and if not -- if they weren't working, we 12 would do the calls on Kettle Point. That continue -- 13 evolved through the years. They went from a one (1) man 14 police service to a six (6) man police service through 15 the years. 16 So as the years went on, we did less and 17 less in Kettle Point because they had their own police 18 service. 19 Q: And during that period, did you 20 participate in any -- any joint patrols on the reserve? 21 A: Yes, we quite often, we'd double-up 22 with the First Nation constable and we would patrol the 23 entire north end of For -- of Lambton County. 24 Q: Okay. And how would you characterize 25 your relationship with -- well, first of all, with the
1421 First Nations officers on the reserve? 2 A: We always had a good working 3 relationship with the officers. 4 Q: Okay. And how about with -- with the 5 community at Kettle -- Kettle and Stony Point? 6 A: Sometimes people would be upset 7 dealing with the police, which is not uncommon, whether 8 you're on Kettle Point or you're in Lambton County, so as 9 a rule or as -- most of the time it wasn't a real issue 10 with us being there. 11 Q: And did you feel comfortable going to 12 the reserve or spending time there? 13 A: Yes, I didn't have any problem 14 working there. 15 Q: Okay. Prior to 1995, did you have 16 any specific training or education in dealing with First 17 Nation people or policing First Nations communities? 18 A: No real, you know, training per se, 19 we -- just experience. 20 Q: Okay. I understand that you did, 21 subsequent to that, according to your resume, undergo 22 Native awareness training in May of 1996? 23 A: Yes, I went to a one (1) day course. 24 Q: All right. And you also have 25 completed the First Nations liaison officer course at the
1431 Anishinabek Spiritual Centre in 1999? 2 A: Yes. that was a two (2) week course 3 that dealt with liaison officers. 4 Q: Okay. And can you briefly describe 5 for us what the role of a liaison officer is. 6 A: In 1998 I was promoted to sergeant 7 and my first duties was to be the liaison with the Stoney 8 Point community, and that was to maintain a working 9 relationship and an open dialogue. 10 Q: Okay. And so what kind of things 11 would you be -- what kind of training did you receive in 12 1999 at -- as part of that Liaison Officer Course? 13 A: Well, there was Native awareness 14 training, there were some experiences of other office -- 15 liaison officers, explained how they got their role 16 working and maintaining it, maintaining community 17 relations. 18 Q: Okay. And did you learn any -- you 19 had by that time a great deal of experience in working in 20 a First Nations community or with a First Nations 21 community, given your proximity to Kettle and Stony Point 22 since 1975. 23 Did you learn anything new, in your view, 24 in terms of maintaining good relations with the 25 communities in 1999?
1441 A: Yeah, it was a good -- good course. 2 It was -- I learned a lot about the First Nation 3 communities as, you know, in Ontario. And knowledge is 4 never wasted, I don't think. 5 Q: Of course. Thank you, Sergeant 6 Parks. Okay. And when did you first come to -- come to 7 an awareness and knowledge of the issues surrounding CFB 8 Ipperwash, the former Stoney Point Reserve? 9 A: It wasn't long when I was here before 10 I started in '75. It was continually learning; I tried 11 to maintain a -- a knowledge of the area. And I can't 12 give you a certain date when I knew something because I 13 was involved with the First Nations community or officers 14 and talked to them continually. 15 Q: Okay. But it was a topic that would 16 come up in conversation? 17 A: Yes, and it was -- it was in the 18 press as the years went by and... 19 Q: All right. And did you get any -- 20 any -- did you have any other sources of information on 21 the situation at Camp Ipperwash, or the appropriation of 22 the land there? 23 A: Through our organize -- through the 24 OPP there was information came through the detachment, so 25 there was -- there was all kinds of information that came
1451 out, different sources. 2 Q: So you were aware then -- would it be 3 fair to say that you were aware, beginning in 1975 or 4 very shortly thereafter, of efforts or the desire to have 5 that land returned? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: Okay. And prior to 1993 did you have 8 any involvement in policing -- in a policing capacity 9 with any of those efforts? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Fair enough. It was some time ago. 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: Were you aware of -- of things like 14 information sessions or handing out information pamphlets 15 on Highway 21, that members of the First Nation engaged 16 in that activity? 17 A: I don't recall when those took place. 18 Q: Okay. All right. Turning now to 19 1993 you were -- we've heard from other witnesses that 20 descendants and former residents of the Stoney Point 21 Reserve moved onto the Army Camp in the first week of May 22 of 1993. 23 Were you aware of that at the time? 24 A: Yes, I was. 25 Q: Okay. How did you come by that
1461 awareness? 2 A: I guess just from talking to the 3 officers in the area. 4 Q: All right. Did you have any direct 5 involvement in -- in policing that occu -- that -- the 6 initial move into the Base? 7 A: I don't believe so, no. 8 Q: Okay. And what was your first 9 involvement with -- with the situation at Camp Ipperwash 10 as a police officer in May of 19 -- or after May of 1993? 11 A: I was working in Petrolia on a 12 homicide in the spring of '93, and I believe I came back 13 to work at Forest Detachment just prior to the May long 14 weekend, so that's when I became involved with it. 15 Q: All right. I'm going to take you 16 now, Sergeant Parks, to Tab 2 of the brief of documents 17 in front of you. Do you recognize -- there's a fairly 18 document in there, do you recognize that document? 19 A: Those are my notes -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- from 1993. 22 Q: Okay. And they're your notes from 23 May of 1993 until August of 1995? 24 I see the last page says August 29th, 25 1995; is that correct?
1471 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Do these represent the 3 entirety of your notes relating to Ipperwash for that 4 time period? 5 A: Yes, they do. 6 Q: Okay. With one exception, which 7 we'll come to later, from February of 1995 which was 8 provided to the Commission and to the parties this 9 morning. We will raise that later. 10 I'd ask that the document at Tab 2 be 11 entered as the next exhibit, and it's Inquiry Document 12 Number 2005572, that's the notes of Larry Parks from May 13 19th, 1993 to August 29th, 1995. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1208, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1208: Document number 2005572. 17 Handwritten notebook entries 18 of Larry Parks, May 19, 1993 19 to August 31, 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 22 Q: You'll see, Commissioner, and 23 Sergeant Parks, that I have hand numbered or had hand 24 numbered these notes in the upper right hand corner. I'm 25 going to be referring to that numbering system as it's
1481 continuous, just for -- for simplicity sake. 2 If you need assistance in locating any 3 area of your notes, I can also cue you with -- with your 4 own notebook's numbers. 5 A: Thank you. 6 Q: All right. Turning now to May 19th 7 of 1993, I see that you have some notes there concerning 8 a conversation that you had with Maynard T. George and 9 Carl George; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And that conversation concerns 12 the -- their intention, both -- Mr. George's contention 13 to place an information booth in Ipperwash Provincial 14 Park? 15 A: Yes, that is correct. 16 Q: Okay. And if I could also turn you 17 to Tab 3 of the brief of documents in front of you, 18 you'll see there there's a letter from Acting Staff 19 Sergeant Beacock dated May 20th of 1993. 20 In it he describes -- by the way that's 21 Inquiry Document Number 2002549, it's been entered in 22 these proceedings as Exhibit P-174. 23 In that letter, Acting Staff Sergeant 24 Beacock describes a meeting between MNR officials, 25 Maynard T. George and Carl George to discuss the
1491 placement of an information booth. 2 And then it also goes on to discuss a 3 meeting at -- the initial meeting took place at 15:00 4 hours and then there's another meeting listed at 15:30 5 hours on May 19th. And he lists you as being present at 6 that -- the second meeting. 7 Do you recall if you were present at the 8 first meeting? 9 A: No, I was not at the first meeting. 10 Q: Okay. And Acting Staff Sergeant 11 Beacock summarizes the content of the second meeting with 12 you stating that both parties, that being Maynard and 13 Carl George, informed me of their intention to continue 14 their original plan of peaceful occupation of the Camp in 15 the Park, and indicated that they would do everything in 16 their power to control the activities of their members. 17 Is that consistent with your -- your 18 recollection? 19 First of all, do you have an independent 20 recollection of that meeting? 21 A: No, I do not. 22 Q: All right. So you're relying 23 entirely on your notes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And I do see in your notes on
1501 page 1 -- perhaps if you could read the passage starting 2 with, "They wanted..." 3 I do -- I'm sorry, I do have a bit of 4 difficulty with your handwriting Sergeant Parks. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: It would assist the 6 rest of us too. Perhaps we could refer also to the page 7 number of his actual notes so that we can follow those. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Sure. That's page 72 on May 19th, 11 1993. Thank you, Mr. Roland. 12 A: You want me to start with, "They 13 wanted"? 14 Q: Yes, thank you. 15 A: "They wanted peaceful events to help 16 support their land claim. That was Les 17 Kobayashi and MNR staff. They will 18 allow building on Park, no problems 19 anticipated." 20 Q: All right. Thank you, Sergeant 21 Parks. So that last entry, do you know if that indicates 22 a separate meeting with Mr. Kobayashi and MNR staff or 23 were they all part of the entire meeting, the meeting 24 that took place at 15:30 hours that we were discussing? 25 A: I think there was a meeting
1511 beforehand that I didn't attend, and this was my 2 summation of the meeting that the acting -- acting Staff 3 Sergeant Beacock had with Maynard and Carl. 4 Q: All right. Thank you very much. And 5 I understand that you had further contact with Maynard 6 and Carl George, concerning the -- the placement of the 7 information booth and other matters. 8 If I could turn you now to your notes of 9 May 20th and Exhibit P-1208. They appear at page 4 of 10 the document in front of you. And that's page 76 for the 11 benefit of Counsel. 12 And if I could just get you to -- first of 13 all, do you recall the conversation that's described 14 there? 15 A: No, I do not. 16 Q: All right. If I could just get you 17 to read your notes then. 18 A: It's the notes from the -- Thursday, 19 the 20th of May, 1993 at 19:25 hours. 20 "Maynard George called. He advised 21 that the Military have brought in 22 people who were at Oka. They have put 23 a large two (2) inch chain across the 24 roads they're using. He requested I 25 attend and act under Section 129(c) of
1521 the Criminal Code. 2 Advised him that it was -- it was the 3 army he should be dealing with. 4 He stated, You're refusing to act? I 5 said, No, I will consult my 6 supervisors. 7 At 19:40 I called Inspector Carson and 8 advised him of the phone call with 9 Maynard. He advised me to tell George 10 that he should be dealing with the 11 Military." 12 Q: And did you have any further 13 conversations with Maynard George about this -- this 14 request? 15 A: I don't have any notes on that, 16 anything further. 17 Q: Okay. And if I could also take you 18 to Tab 4 of the brief of documents in front of you. 19 There's a letter there from -- to the superintendent 20 from, again, acting Staff Sergeant Beacock dated May 21 21st, 1993. 22 It's Inquiry document number 2001206. I 23 don't believe that letter has been entered as an exhibit 24 and perhaps if we could do that now. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1209, Your Honour.
1531 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1209: Document Number 2001206. 2 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 3 from E.B. Beacock re. First 4 Nations Occupation, CFB 5 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park, May 21, 7 1993. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: First of all, is this -- these 11 reporting letters to the superintendent, would you see 12 these letters if they referred to you? 13 A: Not necessarily, no. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Okay. Do you recall ever seeing this 17 particular letter, do you recognize it? 18 A: I don't recall it, no. 19 Q: Okay. You'll note -- just a moment's 20 indulgence, Commissioner. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: You'll note on the second page 25 there's a conversation described with you -- between you
1541 and Maynard T. George and you're described there as 2 acting Sergeant Parks. 3 It refers to Maynard T. George's comments 4 concerning member -- military personnel who'd been 5 present at Oka. 6 And it states: 7 "Acting Sergeant Parks asked Maynard 8 George how George knew -- knew that the 9 Military personnel had been at Oka and 10 George replied, he recognized their 11 faces and names." 12 Can you recall that aspect of the 13 conversation? 14 A: No, I can't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And I'm about to -- to move on to a 20 new time period, Commissioner. I'm wondering, it's five 21 (5) after 12:00. Would this be a convenient time for a 22 break or we can continue -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's your 24 call. If this is a good time for you we'll break now. 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Sure.
1551 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 2 now. 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, 4 Commissioner. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 6 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 12:02 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 1:00 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good afternoon, 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 afternoon. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 20 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Parks. 21 A: Good afternoon. 22 Q: You'll recall that before the break, 23 Sergeant Parks, we were discussing the summer of 1993. 24 I'm going to take you back to that period. 25 I note in your notes, Exhibit P-1028, on
1561 June 11th, 1993 there's a meeting noted there with Carl 2 George. 3 First of all, do you have any independent 4 recollection of that meeting; that's at page 5 of Tab 2? 5 And for the benefit of Counsel, it's page 6 99 of Sergeant Parks' notes. 7 A: No, I have no independent 8 recollection of that. 9 Q: All right. You have a brief entry 10 there, I'd ask you to -- to just read it for the record. 11 I believe it begins at nine o'clock in the 12 morning. 13 A: "Nine o'clock. Accompany Sergeant 14 Beacock. Proceed to Kettle Point. 15 Talk to Carl George re. army camp. 16 They were not involved with 17 discussions. Talked to Miles Bressette 18 re. meeting Kettle Point and Federal 19 Government." 20 Q: Okay. And does that refresh your 21 memory? Do you have anything to add to those -- those 22 notes about the -- that meeting? 23 A: No, I do not. 24 Q: Okay. Turning next to Tab 5 of the 25 brief of documents in front of you, there's a letter
1571 there dated June 12th, 1993. It's Inquiry document 2 number 2001244. 3 You appear to have signed this letter; 4 it's addressed to the Superintendent, Ontario Provincial 5 Police. First of all, can I ask what capacity you were 6 acting in, in sending that letter? 7 A: The shift sergeant of the day, or the 8 detachment commander of the day would put in a report of 9 what happened in the previous twenty-four (24) hours and 10 I would be doing that as my -- as a shift sergeant. 11 Q: All right. And you'd mentioned 12 earlier, you -- you did function as an acting sergeant 13 during that summer? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: So this was an occasion where you 16 were fulfilling those duties? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. The letter itself 19 reports: 20 "No reported occurrences, although a 21 new camp was reported set up on the 22 east side of buildings." 23 You'll note, as well, in your brief of 24 documents in the tabs that follow, Tab 6, Tab 7 and Tab 25 8, for example, there are brief letters reporting nothing
1581 of significance occurring, no reported occurrences 2 offered by yourself. 3 Now, can you explain why -- why you would 4 be sending in a letter, essentially saying nothing 5 happened? 6 A: They -- we were instructed to submit 7 nil reports, so there wouldn't be any confusion of 8 whether we'd missed a report or we missed reporting 9 incidents. 10 Q: All right. And how often do you 11 recall -- 12 A: That was -- happened every morning. 13 Q: Every morning? Right. If I could 14 ask that the letter at Tab 5 be entered as the next 15 exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1210, Your Honour. 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1210: Document Number 2001244. 20 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 21 from L.J. Parks re. First 22 Nations Occupation, CFB 23 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 24 Provincial Park, June 12, 25 1993.
1591 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 2 Q: During that summer, did you have any 3 occasion, that you can recall, to go into the camp 4 itself? 5 A: Yes, I did at times. 6 Q: And did you have interaction with the 7 military police? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Okay. Can you recall, independently, 10 any specific incidents where you would have gone into the 11 Military Base? 12 A: Not independently, just what's 13 recorded in my notes. 14 Q: All right. Similarly, can you 15 recall, independently, any conversations you would have 16 had with members of the military personnel -- any 17 military personnel or members of the military police? 18 A: No, I do not. 19 Q: Okay. All right. Right. I'm going 20 to take you now -- I understand that you were involved in 21 the policing of an incident that occurred in July of 22 1993. 23 If you go to pages 6 -- or page 6 of your 24 notes, which for the benefit of counsel is page 34, the 25 beginning of page 34. There are notes there that
1601 describe your involvement with the policing of an 2 incident involving a toll booth immediately outside 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 Do you have independent recollection of 5 your involvement on July 16th with that incident? I'll 6 just give you a second to have a look at your notes. 7 A: No, I don't -- I don't have any 8 independent recollection on the 16th. 9 Q: All right. And for the record, it 10 appears that Sergeant Parks' notes from July 16th, 1993 11 appear at pages 6 through 17 of Exhibit P-1208. For the 12 benefit of counsel that's pages 34 through 45. 13 Now, I'm not going to take you -- your 14 notes on this -- on that day are very extensive, I'm not 15 going to take you through all of them, I'm just going to 16 take you to a few passages. If I could take you to, on 17 page 6, your entry beginning at 13:30. 18 And before we do that, actually, if I 19 could take you to Tab 9 of the brief of documents in 20 front of you. That's a letter to the Superintendent of 21 the OPP dated July 16th, 1993 from Acting Staff Sergeant 22 Beacock. 23 In it he notes that he dispatched you, 24 Sergeant Parks, to deal with the toll booth incident and 25 inform occupiers that charges would be laid if people
1611 occupying the toll booth did not move. 2 Now, I don't see in your notes any 3 specific instructions from Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock; 4 is that correct? On page 6, I believe, it would start. 5 A: No, I don't have any notes from him. 6 Q: And do you recall Acting Staff 7 Sergeant Beacock providing -- dispatching you, 8 instructing you to attend? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: All right. And do you recall him 11 instructing you to inform occupiers that charges would be 12 laid if people occupying the toll booth did not move, 13 prior to your attendance at the toll booth? 14 A: I don't have it in my notes who I -- 15 who instructions are on. 16 Q: Okay. Right. Turning now to -- back 17 to Tab 2, Exhibit P-1208, on page 6, the entry at 13:30. 18 If I could just ask you to read your entry there. 19 A: "13:30, I was at Matheson Drive and 20 County Road 3." 21 I'm going to identify this man or person? 22 Q: No. I'd ask you for redacted 23 portions of your -- of your notes to just indicate that a 24 name has been redacted when you come to it. 25 A: All right. Yeah.
1621 "There was a male party who was 2 standing on the roadway with papers. 3 He advised me that he was charging to 4 enter. He also advised me that another 5 person was in charge and he would be 6 right back." 7 Q: And then at 13:31? 8 A: "13:31, a vehicle appeared at the 9 intersection or it arrived at the 10 intersection. It was driven by a male 11 party. [I have his name] And he also 12 advised me that he'll be charging 13 admission to enter at this location. 14 I advised him that it was our position 15 [meaning the OPP's position] that as 16 long as they were charging on the 17 Military Base we would not -- take no 18 action -û we would take no action. 19 If he's going to be charging at this 20 location [which was the roadway] he 21 would be charged. 22 This male party was aware of that and 23 he requested I charge him." 24 Do you want me to continue or...? 25 Q: Yes, please.
1631 A: "The first male I was dealing with 2 went onto DND property. Another 3 vehicle pulled up on DND property and I 4 advised the first -- or the second 5 party that I would be charge -- or be 6 talking to my supervisors and I gave 7 the information to Acting Staff 8 Sergeant Beacock. 9 The second party then came to the 10 cruiser and advised me he was doing 11 this on the instructions of Stoney 12 Point Council and he claimed that 13 Middlesex was claiming the road and 14 advised them information it was 15 Bosanquet Township was -- had ownership 16 of the road." 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: "He agreed and then said that this 21 was all their land." 22 Q: All right. Thank you, Sergeant 23 Parks. And on that afternoon, did you, in fact, lay any 24 charges? 25 A: No, I did not.
1641 Q: All right. You did however observe 2 vehicles being turned back on Matheson Drive outside of 3 DND property? 4 A: That that location is a roadway, they 5 were -- they were still on the roadway. After they left 6 that location they were still on Matheson Drive. 7 Q: Okay. And so you didn't -- can you 8 explain why you didn't lay any charges that afternoon? 9 A: I don't recall if there was just not 10 -- not enough evidence to lay a charge or I had 11 instructions that we weren't proceeding that day. 12 Q: Okay. Can I take you to Tab 10 of 13 the brief of documents in front of you? You'll see a 14 letter there to the superintendent from you dated July 15 17th, it's Inquiry Document Number 2001519. 16 Perhaps, before we do that, if I could 17 enter the document at Tab 9, which I referred to earlier, 18 as the next exhibit? I don't believe I did that. That 19 is Inquiry Document Number 2001516, letter dated July 20 16th, 1993 to the Superintendent, and that is from Acting 21 Staff Sergeant Beacock. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1211, Your Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1211. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1211: Document Number 2001516.
1651 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 2 from E.B. Beacock, re. First 3 Nations Occupation, CFB 4 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park, July 16, 6 1993. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 9 Q: I apologize, Sergeant Parks. Turning 10 again to the letter at -- at Tab 10, you'll see there, on 11 the first page, you note this -- this letter is -- is 12 authored by you. Do you -- first of all... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: You note: 17 "Some vehicles entering Matheson Drive 18 were obviously involved..." 19 Are you following me on the page? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: "...involved with the Stoney Point 22 Group and were allowed to enter. 23 Approximately six (6) vehicles were 24 stopped and after talking to John 25 George turned around. A few vehicles
1661 appeared to pay the toll and entered 2 Matheson Drive. P/C King and Acting 3 Sergeant Parks received many inquiries 4 from the public about why the toll was 5 being collected. A few members of the 6 public were very upset that this was 7 going on." 8 So, first of all, do you recall having 9 contact with members of the public? I take it that that 10 would be members of the public not manning the -- the 11 toll booth? 12 A: I don't have any independent 13 recollection of that. 14 Q: All right. And if I could... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: ...take you back to Exhibit P-1210 at 19 Tab 9. Sorry for flipping you around so much, Sergeant 20 Parks. 21 A: Hmm. 22 Q: I'm sorry, the document at Tab -- Tab 23 9 is -- 24 THE REGISTRAR: 1211. 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 1211. Thank you.
1671 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 3 Q: At the bottom of the page it 4 indicates that you advised -- that Beacock indicates 5 that: 6 "Parks advised me that there was no 7 vehicle traffic at that time and no 8 offence had been observed by him." 9 At fifteen (15) -- on the following pages: 10 "At 15:00 hours I spoke with Acting 11 Sergeant Parks and informed him to 12 continue observations for the present. 13 Parks informed me that at least one (1) 14 vehicle had been turned away at that 15 point." 16 Does that assist you at all in refreshing 17 your memory about why -- why you didn't lay charges that 18 afternoon? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. All right. Turning now to 21 July 17th, 1993. For the record, it appears that 22 Sergeant Parks' notes for July 17th, 1993 occupy pages 17 23 through 24 of Exhibit P-1208. For the benefit of 24 Counsel, that's pages 45 through 52. 25
1681 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm sorry. For the record, did I -- 4 did I enter the document at Tab 10 as an exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: No. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Could I do that 7 now, please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1212, Your Honour. 9 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And I thank My 10 Friend for reminding me. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1212: Document Number 2001519. 13 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 14 from L. J. Parks, re. First 15 Nations Occupation, CFB 16 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 17 Provincial Park, July 17, 18 1993. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 21 Q: So you have those notes in front of 22 you, Sergeant Parks? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: All right. Okay. And if I can take 25 you to your entry on page 17, and that's page 45 for the
1691 benefit of Counsel, at 11:37, and ask you to just read 2 that portion there. 3 A: "I called Maynard, he advised me that 4 their lawyer advised him that it was 5 our land and that if you don't [don't 6 something] a charge, we will be going - 7 -" 8 Q: Could it be "file"? 9 A: Yeah. 10 "If you don't file a charge, we're 11 going to charge the Ontario Provincial 12 Police with harassment and [something] 13 prosecution." 14 And this is Maynard saying, I can't read 15 my own writing, the word before prosecution. 16 "I asked Maynard, Are you going to be 17 setting up today? Maynard replied, 18 Yes, we are going to exercise our 19 rights. We are gathering our Elders 20 and children. 21 I asked Maynard, How many people would 22 he have there? He advised me about a 23 hundred (100). I asked him when was 24 this going to take place. Maynard 25 replied, Within the hour."
1701 Q: Okay. And if you could continue at 2 11:54. 3 A: "11:54, called Maynard. I requested 4 to know exactly where he was going to 5 set up. He advised me on the road 6 leading to. I asked him, Matheson 7 Drive? He said, Yeah, where we were -- 8 had been set up. He said the word he 9 was missing was malicious and 10 harassment. 11 That's from the previous conversation we 12 had. 13 "He further advised me that you have to 14 take this all the way to Court. I said 15 I would advise the inspector." 16 And at 12:02 I called Inspector Carson. 17 Q: Right. If I could just stop you 18 there. You -- you mentioned, or described earlier, 19 Maynard T. George using the words "malicious" and 20 "harassment." 21 Did you understand him to mean, in your 22 earlier conversation you referred to, before the word 23 prosecution? 24 Is that -- is that -- 25 A: Yes.
1711 Q: -- what you were referring to? 2 A: That's what he was referring to. 3 Q: All right. Okay. And after that 4 conversation, you were instructed to proceed? 5 A: Yes, I was. 6 Q: To -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: To the intersection of Matheson Drive 9 and County Road 3? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And what did you observe when 12 you -- when you got there? 13 A: "I arrived at that location at 12:20 14 p.m." 15 "The intersection of Matheson Road and 16 County Road 3, there's no one around. 17 And I checked the DND property and, 18 okay, the Natives had just set up, were 19 just setting up. At 1:05, Maynard 20 George arrived." 21 Q: Okay. Okay. And -- and then further 22 down, this is -- for the benefit of Counsel, that's on 23 page 48. And for the record, that's page 20 of Exhibit 24 P-1208. 25 At 14:14 you have noted that the same male
1721 party that you'd been dealing with -- the second male 2 party that you'd been dealing with the day before, 3 approached the passenger side of the vehicle, and the 4 passenger appeared to give him money. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: That's correct. Okay. And then 7 moving down to 15:19 hours on the following page. You 8 have noted that a vehicle entering Matheson Drive was 9 stopped by John -- excuse me, by a male party. 10 A: Yes, he was. 11 Q: You went to the intersection, the 12 passenger gave him five dollars ($5.00). 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: "P/C Myers was with you. 15 "And the party -- the male party then 16 gave the passenger a paper and which 17 the passenger signed. Male party then 18 asked the passenger if there was any 19 open alcohol in the vehicle." 20 Now, can you recall if you overheard that 21 conversation directly? 22 A: Yes, I was standing right beside him 23 at the time. 24 Q: How far were you? 25 A: Within an arm's reach, I think.
1731 Q: Okay. And then what happened next? 2 A: "At 3:20 I placed the male party 3 under arrest for mischief." 4 I seized the papers he was exchanging. I 5 seized the five dollar ($5.00) bill as well as a pen that 6 he had been using. I asked this male party to come to 7 the cruiser. 8 Q: And you then proceeded back to the 9 Forest Detachment; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you tell us what happened 12 when you got there? 13 A: How much detail do you want? 14 Q: If you could provide us with a 15 summary after reviewing your notes that would be helpful. 16 A: I appeared -- I brought the one (1) 17 male party back to the office. There was another male 18 party arrived. I assisted with preparing the information 19 of mischief charges against the parties. 20 I then swore to the information in front 21 of the Justice of the Peace that came to the office. And 22 then I then tried to release the two (2) parties on a 23 recognizance. 24 Q: Okay. And who was the other party? 25 A: It was Clifford George.
1741 Q: Clifford George who has appeared as a 2 witness before this Inquiry -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and described this incident as 5 well. 6 Okay. And what happened when you were 7 trying to release the -- the two (2) parties? 8 A: The both of them would not agree to 9 stay away from Stoney Point, so they were held for a bail 10 hearing. 11 Q: Okay. And before we turn to that, if 12 I could take you to Document Number -- I'm sorry, before 13 we go on do you recall which other officers were present 14 in the -- in the Forest Detachment -- oh, sorry, on the 15 road at the time of the arrest? 16 A: Inspector Carson was there, Acting 17 Staff Sergeant Beacock was there, Constable Myers, who 18 was my partner was there, Constable Speck was there 19 and... 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether Mark 21 Wright was there? 22 A: I don't recall that, no. 23 Q: All right. And on reviewing your 24 notes it's -- it's not apparent whether he was or not? 25 A: No. I don't have it noted in my
1751 notes. 2 Q: He's testified to being there. Okay. 3 And if I can turn you now to a document 4 that should appear at the very front of your -- tucked in 5 the front of your brief of documents. It's Inquiry 6 Document Number 2001520. 7 It's a letter dated July 19th, 1993 to the 8 Superintendent of the OPP from Acting Staff Sergeant 9 Beacock. And attached to that is an occurrence report of 10 the same date -- or actually no, it's dated July 17th, 11 1993. 12 Now, the first page of that letter 13 describes by Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock, describes the 14 arrest of three (3) individuals charged with mischief as 15 a result of the -- their activities at the toll booth at 16 County Road 3 on Matheson Drive. 17 Do you see that there? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And if you turn to the occurrence 20 report it appears to have been filled out by you; is that 21 correct, or completed by you? 22 A: Yes, I would have filled in a written 23 copy but it -- this was, I guess, a major incident that 24 would have been typed by somebody else. 25 Q: All right. Okay. And you had noted
1761 earlier that two (2) individuals were -- were placed 2 under arrest including the man you arrested and one (1), 3 Clifford George. I see on the second page of the 4 occurrence report and as well in the descriptions that I 5 referred to earlier, there's three (3) individuals are 6 listed as having been arrested. 7 There's a third individual. Do you recall 8 a third individual being arrested at the same time? 9 A: I don't recall that too because I had 10 left the scene -- 11 Q: All right. 12 A: -- and other than what's in the 13 reports. 14 Q: Okay. And before I enter this next 15 document as the next exhibit I would ask that the name of 16 the third individual on the second page of the occurrence 17 report be redacted. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: So if we could enter both the letter 22 dated July 19th, 1993, from Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock 23 and the occurrence report as the next exhibit. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1213. 25
1771 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1213: Document number 2001520. 2 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 3 from E. B. Beacock re. First 4 Nations Occupation, CFB 5 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park, July 19, 7 1993 and Occurrence Report, 8 July 17, 1993. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 11 Q: And did you have any further 12 involvement in the investigation of these -- the 13 incidents described here? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. And do you know what became of 16 -- of the charges? 17 A: Not with any degree of certainty. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And you'll see at 19 Tab 11 there's a letter to Superintendent from Acting 20 Sergeant Silverman dated July 21st, 1993. It's Inquiry 21 Document Number 2002562. 22 And Acting Sergeant Silverman notes that 23 in discussing the July 20th bail hearings for the three 24 (3) individuals who were arrested that the primary 25 condition was that they not participate in any such
1781 activity in the area involved again. 2 Were you aware of those bail hearings and 3 the results? 4 A: I wasn't directly involved with them. 5 I just -- like my note says -- says I was on holidays 6 again so -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- I wasn't directly involved in 9 that. 10 Q: And at any time did you become aware 11 of the -- the condition of their release that they -- 12 they not participate in that activity in that area? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Okay. And we also see at Tab 12 a 15 letter to the Superintendent dated July 31st, 1993. It's 16 Inquiry Document Number 2002556. 17 It is signed by you? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And it reports civilian -- a civilian 20 report to the Forest OPP of hearing gunshots in the beach 21 area on DND property and notes that Military Police were 22 contacted and they did not have any calls on the shots 23 and that no further incidents were reported. 24 First of all, do you have any independent 25 recollection of that particular report?
1791 A: No, I do not. 2 Q: And did you have any direct 3 involvement either in the investigation of this or any of 4 the -- the contacts listed in the letter? 5 A: I -- I don't recall if I called the 6 Military Police or if it was noted in the report. 7 Q: All right. Okay. And if I could ask 8 that that be entered as the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1214, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1214: Document number 2002556. 12 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 13 from L. J. Parks re. Report 14 of gun shots by civilian, 15 July 31, 1993. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 18 Q: Okay. The next entry that we see in 19 your notes is on August 20th, 1993. And you describe 20 there Military Police reports of a break and enter at an 21 ammunition dump on the Army Camp base? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: That's at pages 25 and 26, for the 24 record, of Exhibit P-1208, and for the benefit of Counsel 25 that's pages 69 and 70 in Sergeant Parks' notes.
1801 First of all, do -- do you have any 2 independent recollection of the events that you describe 3 there? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: All right. And you see there that 6 you have described a break and enter and that the 7 investigation was somewhat stymied because there was no 8 evidence suitable for identification and everything on 9 the premises had been either repaired or handled? 10 Is that -- is that a correct summary of 11 your notes there? 12 A: Yes, it is correct. 13 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you now to 14 Tab 16 of the brief of documents in front of you. It's 15 Inquiry document number 2002497. It's a letter to the 16 Superintendent from you, Sergeant Parks, dated August 17 21st 1993. 18 You describe the same incident and also 19 summarize that there was no physical evidence to collect; 20 stolen property included tools and strapping machines; 21 property values were unknown; no live ammunitions were at 22 the facility; and that there were no regular military 23 patrols by the military police to this facility. 24 Do you see that noted there? 25 A: Yes, I do.
1811 Q: And did you have any further 2 involvement in the investigation of this report; these 3 reported occurrences? 4 A: I don't believe so. 5 Q: Okay. And to the best of your 6 knowledge was -- was there any further investigation 7 concerning this report? 8 A: No, there was nothing. As far as I 9 know, there was no further investigation. 10 Q: All right. And if I could enter -- 11 ask that that document, Inquiry document number 2002497, 12 be entered at the next exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1215, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1215 or 15 1214? 16 THE REGISTRAR: 1215. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1215: Document number 2002497. 19 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 20 from L. J. Parks re. Advice 21 from Military Police that 22 ammunition storage facility 23 had been broken into, August 24 21, 1993. 25
1821 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Turning now to Tab 17, there's 5 another letter from you dated October 28th, 1993 to the 6 Superintendent of the OPP. It's Inquiry Document Number 7 2002464. 8 It reports an incident on -- reported on 9 October 27th, of broken windows on the Base and a First 10 Nations person being evicted from a military building. 11 First of all, do you have any independent 12 recollection of that report? 13 A: No, I do not. 14 Q: Okay. And did you have any direct 15 involvement in the incidents described in that letter? 16 A: I'll just get my notes for that day. 17 Q: Sure. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: If I could ask in the meantime that 22 the document at Tab 17, Inquiry Document Number 2002464, 23 be entered as the next exhibit. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1216, Your Honour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1216.
1831 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1216: Document number 2002464. 4 Letter to Superintendent, OPP 5 from L. J. Parks re. First 6 Nations Occupation, CFB 7 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park, October 28, 9 1993. 10 11 THE WITNESS: I was the investigating 12 officer on the one (1) call. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 15 Q: All right. And I note that you are 16 referring to your notes on that. Can you -- can you tell 17 us what they say? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: "At 10:30 on the 28th of October, 22 '93, I was advised of damage to 23 building 101 at CFB Ipperwash. It 24 occurred between 22:40 hours the 27th 25 of October, '93 and 09:15 hours, the
1841 28th of October, '93. Suspect smashed 2 windows on building, reported by 3 Corporal Sauve of the military police. 4 It was in the second building in the 5 training area." 6 Q: Right. And for the record, the 7 passage that's just been reviewed by Sergeant Parks 8 appears at page 30 of Exhibit P-1208, or page 50 for the 9 benefit of Counsel. 10 Okay. So did you have any further 11 involvement in investigating that occurrence? 12 A: I attended at the military police at 13 12:30 and I have in my notes that: 14 "Damage to building, numerous windows." 15 I was -- I had been to the Military Base 16 that day. 17 Q: Okay. And were any charges laid as a 18 result of that report? 19 A: Not that I know of. 20 Q: Okay. Right, taking you back -- I 21 jumped over a period of time here, did you have anything 22 to do in August 1993 with the investigation of an 23 incident involving a helicopter? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: All right. Were you on duty at the
1851 time or...? 2 A: I believe I was on holidays that that 3 took -- took place. 4 Q: Okay. So were you aware of that 5 investigation? 6 A: Obviously, yes. 7 Q: Okay. Taking you now to December 8 2nd, 1993. In your notes that's pages 31 and 32 and it's 9 Exhibit P-1208. For the benefit of counsel that begins 10 at page 94 and finishes at page 95. 11 Do you have it there? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: It appears to describe an incident 14 involving a military patrol hearing shots fired, no 15 damage done, no firearms seen and a party denying doing 16 anything. 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Okay. Do you have independent 20 recollection of that? 21 A: No, I do not. 22 Q: Okay. And notes merely that: 23 "The party under investigation has been 24 abusive in the past and was today and 25 last night --"
1861 A: Yes. 2 Q: "-- to the patrol." Now, did you -- 3 is that an indication that you attended or that this was 4 reported to you? 5 A: I have no notes that I attended so 6 I'm assuming that it was a phone call. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. Now the next 8 entry in your notes that I have in Exhibit P-1208 begins 9 at page 36, and that's November 27th, 1994. For the 10 benefit of counsel that's pages 84, 85 and 86 of that 11 date. I'll just give you a moment to find that page in 12 your notebook. 13 A: Yes, I have it. 14 Q: Okay. You describe there, taking 15 over a police pursuit, becoming involved in a police 16 pursuit that was initiated by Luke and Phil George; is 17 that correct? 18 A: That is correct. 19 Q: Okay. And where they had followed a 20 truck onto the Army Base, proceeded to the Base, waited 21 at Matheson Drive and the Base entrance. 22 Okay. And if I could have you read, 23 beginning with "Advised to takeover". 24 First of all, do you have any independent 25 recollection of this incident?
1871 A: A little bit, yes. 2 Q: A little bit. Okay. And -- 3 A: "I advised to take over the pursuit. 4 P/C's George and George had a spike 5 belt in their car. Our intention was 6 that they're -- them to use the spike 7 belt. So I followed, they pulled over. 8 I stayed right behind the truck. It 9 was a white truck with a side painted 10 black. 11 P/C George and George advised the 12 driver was wanted -- wanted for failing 13 to stop for police. I followed the 14 truck with all the roof lights 15 activated along the roads in the Base 16 and bush area out to the range area 17 where there was now camps, than drove 18 right beside [a male party's camp who I 19 identified]. Then went back into the 20 bush. An Army half-ton pickup was 21 parked across the road that runs 22 parallel to East Parkway Road. 23 The Army truck was directly across the 24 roadway. The truck that I was 25 following went onto the grass area and
1881 at times the passenger that was in the 2 truck would shine a spotlight at me 3 making it hard for me to drive. 4 The truck sped up to sixty (60) 5 kilometers per hour at times and then 6 slowed down and almost stopped at 7 times. 8 Due to the extremely rough tracks that 9 we were traveling, there weren't roads 10 at times. There were two (2) occupants 11 in the vehicle and subsequently the 12 vehicle ran over the spike belt. I was 13 right behind the vehicle when it did 14 that. 15 It was in a bush area on the Camp and 16 it was stopped at 04:37." 17 Do you want me to continue? 18 Q: Yes, please. 19 A: "The driver and the passenger stayed 20 in their seats. I went to the driver's 21 door. Constables King and Smith who 22 had also became involved went to the 23 passenger's door. Glenn George was in 24 the driver's seat and Glenn stated, 25 What did you do to my tires? At 4:38
1891 a.m. I arrested George for failing to 2 stop for police and handcuffed him and 3 searched him and then I turned him over 4 to Constables George and George." 5 Q: Thank you, Sergeant Parks. Did you 6 have any -- any knowledge at the time either before or 7 after about the circumstances leading to the attempts to 8 stop Mr. George? 9 A: I have none noted. 10 Q: Okay. And you don't have any 11 independent rello -- recollection? 12 A: Not -- not on that part. 13 Q: And did you have any other knowledge, 14 either -- that you came by, either before or after about 15 the circumstances surrounding his failure to stop? 16 A: I don't understand the question. 17 Q: What happened before -- in the 18 pursuit -- 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: -- prior to -- prior to your becoming 21 involved? 22 A: I don't recall now. 23 Q: Thank you. Okay. And just before we 24 move on, you -- there is quite a gap in your notes 25 between December 1993 and November -- November 27th,
1901 1994. To the best of your knowledge and recollection did 2 you have any involvement with the situation in the 3 Ipperwash area, or the occupation of the Camp, or 4 incidents in the -- in the surrounding area related to 5 that occupation during that eleven (11) month period? 6 A: No, I don't believe so. 7 Q: Thank you. Okay. The next entry 8 that we see in your notes would appear to be in July of 9 1995? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Before we turn to that, I'm sorry, 14 you did produce to the -- to the Commission quite 15 recently some notes of yours from February 1995 and they 16 should appear -- they were distributed to Counsel in 17 hardcopy this morning, and they should appear at the 18 front of your binder, Sergeant Parks and Commissioner. 19 Do you have them there? 20 A: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 24 Q: Now, I confess, Sergeant Parks, I had 25 a great deal of difficulty making out your notes for this
1911 entry, but I understand that they relate to an incident 2 that occurred in February of 1995 at Kettle -- at Kettle 3 Point; is that correct? 4 A: Yes, it was. 5 Q: And perhaps it might be helpful given 6 my inability to make heads or tails of them, if you could 7 just read -- it's a very brief entry if you could read 8 them. 9 A: "On Monday the 27th of February, 10 1995, at one (1) minute after midnight 11 I was recalled, re. an ERT containment 12 call. I attended at Forest Detachment. 13 It was a TRU and ERT call. I was 14 assigned to Indian Lane and at the hill 15 we were doing outer perimeter for the 16 TRU team that was doing a call on 17 Kettle Point. 18 Subsequently a male party was arrested. 19 I was assigned then to follow the 20 Kettle Point Police Unit with the male 21 party to Forest Detachment." 22 Q: All right. 23 A: "We arrived at Kettle Point 24 Detachment -- or Forest Detachment at 25 7:45 a.m. and I assisted with the male
1921 party calling a lawyer." 2 Q: Okay. And did you actually -- if you 3 can describe your location on Indian Lane was that 4 actually on -- that was in -- on the reserve? 5 A: Yes, it had Indian Lane at the hill 6 which was right on Kettle Point. 7 Q: Right. And how far were you from -- 8 from the site of the incident itself, the -- the house? 9 We've heard from other witnesses that the 10 male party was holed up in a house at Kettle Point? 11 A: That would be about a -- a kilometre 12 away. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I subsequently moved to -- to 15 Tecumseh at Indian Lane which was much closer. 16 Q: Okay. And were you present during 17 that -- during that operation, or were you aware of, 18 during the operation, any difficulties with -- with 19 respect to -- and we've heard other witnesses testify, 20 about maintaining the perimeter, for example? 21 A: Yes, I know, there was -- I remember 22 -- our -- I have some independent recollection. I 23 remember one (1) male party coming to our location and we 24 were able to him turn back but it was -- it wasn't easy. 25 Q: All right. Okay. And if you could
1931 just describe for us what your function was at the outer 2 perimeter. 3 A: At the outer perimeter, we were to 4 make sure that nobody joined into -- into the inner 5 perimeter. 6 Q: And you mentioned that one (1) party 7 had tried to go through, breached that -- the outer 8 perimeter at your location? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: But you were successful in persuading 11 him not to do so? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And you described some 14 difficulty. Can you describe, in general terms, what 15 that difficulty entailed. 16 A: Well, I think the -- some of the 17 point was that he didn't think we should be there, that 18 wasn't our territory, we shouldn't be on the -- that spot 19 of the land. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And we, you know, we had conversation 22 and able to convince him that we were doing a job for 23 assisting the Kettle Point police. 24 Q: Okay. And did you have any other 25 conversations with any members of the community while you
1941 were dispatched on this operation? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. And did you have any 4 involvement in, or knowledge of the circumstances 5 surrounding the ERT team being called to the location? 6 Do you know -- do you know who called the 7 ERT or requested your presence there? 8 A: No, I don't. I don't recall now. 9 Q: Okay. And do you have anything else 10 that you can recall independently about that -- that 11 incident? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: All right. Just one more question on 14 that incident. We have heard from other witnesses that 15 there were clear messages broadcasted by community 16 members on the departure of police, or around the time of 17 the departure of the police with -- with the accused 18 person, that that departure was welcome, or that the 19 community -- that some members of the community appear to 20 want the police to leave. 21 Were you privy to any of that? Did you 22 witness anything...? 23 24 A: Not that I recall. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you. I would ask that
1951 these notes be entered as the next exhibit. They are 2 Sergeant Parks' notes from February 27th, 1995. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1217, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1217: Sgt. Larry Parks OPP. 6 Handwritten notes, Feb. 27, 7 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Right. Turning now to July of 1995, 11 which begins at page 39 of your notes, Exhibit P-1208, 12 which is, for the benefit of Counsel, starting at page 13 26. 14 You were assigned to -- at 12:00 hours, it 15 appears, assigned to -- do you have that here -- there? 16 A: What's the date on that? 17 Q: I believe it's July 1st, 1995. It's 18 a little difficult to make out in my copy. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And that's page 26 of your notebook. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1961 A: Yes, I have it now. It's 1st of 2 July. 3 Q: All right. And am I correct in 4 reading that at -- at 12:00 hours you were assigned to a 5 beach patrol at Ipperwash beach? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Right. And it appears there's noth - 8 - all was quiet, nothing of significance occurred. 9 A: That is correct. 10 Q: Right. And after February 27th, 11 1995, was that your -- your next involvement with the sit 12 -- incidents, issues and events around the Ipperwash 13 area? 14 A: It appears to be so, yes. 15 Q: And the next entry in your notes that 16 you've provided to us is on Tuesday, July 18th, 1995. It 17 appears that you were dispatched -- that's at page 31 of 18 your notebook, page 40 of Exhibit P-1208. 19 Do you have that there? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: It appears that you were dispatched 22 to investigate an alleged theft of bicycles from the 23 Provincial Park? 24 A: Yes, it was. 25 Q: And it would also appear that you
1971 encountered some First Nations youths on the army camp 2 side of the fence and observed some bikes, but that you 3 did not make any arrests and that the investigation did 4 not appear to go much further. 5 Is that correct? 6 A: That is correct. Indication was it 7 was their bike, it wasn't a stolen bike. 8 Q: And I also see there that McIntyre, a 9 man named McIntyre, would that be Don McIntyre or do you 10 know who McIntyre is? 11 A: This is Glen McIntyre. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: He was a park warden at Ipperwash. 14 Q: All right. And he reports to you 15 that he heard a couple of noises that might be fireworks 16 at the main gate. You note that you did not hear any 17 noise. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: All right. Do you -- and do you 20 recall anything further about that particular report or 21 incident? 22 A: No, I do not. 23 Q: Turning now to page 40 of your notes 24 on July 28th, 1995. Just for the record, it begins at 25 page 42 of Exhibit 1208.
1981 You were dispatched to assist the park 2 warden in dealing with -- it looks like Native 3 trespassers, is that correct; at Ipperwash Provincial 4 Park? 5 A: Yeah. Natives walking on the beach, 6 it says. 7 Q: All right. And can you describe in 8 general what -- what occurred when you attended there? 9 A: I believe we located four (4) parties 10 and the Ministry of Natural Resources did not want any 11 charges laid. And the male -- First Nation people 12 decided to leave the Park, and that was the end of it. 13 Q: And did you have any further 14 involvement or did you investigate -- did you have 15 anything -- did you follow up on this, in any way? 16 A: No. 17 Q: The next entry is on the following 18 page in your notes, which is page 43 of Exhibit P-1208, 19 page 41, for the benefit of counsel, of Sergeant Parks' 20 notes. 21 And it appears that you were -- that there 22 was an ERT callout -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- on July 29th at 18:00 hours and 25 that you were assigned a patrol area with P/C Myers.
1991 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that area was the Ipperwash area? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you recall what you were told 5 or what your instructions or briefings were about the 6 purpose of the -- the reason for the callout and the 7 purpose of your patrol? 8 A: There had been an incident, I was 9 aware there was an incident at the Military Base -- 10 Q: All right. 11 Q: -- and -- that day. And I haven't 12 made any notes about that. And I don't have any 13 instructions about -- about what we supposed to be -- 14 supposed to patrol in the area. 15 Q: Right. Do you recall what the 16 incident was? 17 A: That was to deal with a bus and a -- 18 and a jeep involved in a collision or whatever. 19 Q: All right. Okay. And we've heard 20 from other witnesses that on that day the people 21 occupying part of Camp Ipperwash, the First Nations 22 people, moved into the built-up area of the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes, I believe that's correct. 24 Q: Do you recall that -- learning that 25 on that day?
2001 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall observing, 3 during your patrol and prior to your next entry, anything 4 of significance? 5 A: No, I do not. 6 Q: Turning then to your next entry, 7 which appears to be at 22:41, you have noted there: 8 "Dispatch to keep the peace at CFB 9 Ipperwash." 10 Is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you tell us -- can you recall 13 -- first of all, do you have independent recollection of 14 being dispatched to the main gate? 15 A: Somewhat. 16 Q: All right. Can you tell us what you 17 can recall? 18 A: We -- we arrived at 23:00, at 11:00 19 p.m. Lieutenant Colonel Sweeney advised me that the Base 20 was being turned over to the Natives. And he requested 21 we keep the peace and we just stood by at the main gate 22 while the military personnel left. 23 Q: Okay. And I note you were reading 24 that from the last passage from your notes. Your next -- 25 your next entry is at 23:35.
2011 A: Yes. All the Military had left by -- 2 at that time. And there was no problems, like there was 3 no arrests or anything while they left. 4 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you to Tab 5 25 of the brief of documents in front of you. Well first 6 of all, I should ask: Do you recall anything else from 7 your -- from your own memory about -- about the events 8 when you were at the main gate? 9 A: There was a lot of -- of shouting and 10 yelling and whatnot, but I didn't note anything in my 11 notebook. 12 Q: Okay. And who was doing the shouting 13 and yelling? 14 A: Mostly the First Nation people. 15 Q: Do you recall what they were shouting 16 and yelling? 17 A: No, not -- not offhand. 18 Q: Okay. Now turning to Tab 25, we have 19 there, "CFB Incident Reports." If you turn to page 26, 20 it's Tab 25 of page 26. 21 A: I don't have that here. 22 Q: Oh, I'm sorry, it's Tab 20. And I 23 thank My Friend. That is a document that has been 24 entered in these proceedings as Exhibit P-411. 25 If you turn to page 26. Have I got it
2021 right this time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you. Okay. All right. If you 4 turn to the entry at 00:50 by Sergeant Bouwman, he has 5 noted there that he was briefed by you and advised that 6 when the Army was moving out Natives were cheering and 7 jeering and overheard -- and that you overheard one (1) 8 of them say, Let's get Ipperwash Provincial Park next. 9 And it goes on to say that the MNR was 10 advised of the situation by Parks at 01:00 hours. And 11 there's a note, "McIntyre." 12 Does that assist in refreshing your 13 memory? 14 A: I don't have any independent 15 recollection of that. 16 Q: Okay. Can you recall having any 17 conversations with -- I assume that would be Glen 18 McIntyre of the MNR? 19 A: I don't recall that, no. 20 Q: And -- and this passage was not 21 recorded in your notes. Do you have any reason to doubt 22 that -- that this is -- this is the information that you 23 conveyed to Sergeant Bouwman? 24 A: I -- I have no doubts that I -- if -- 25 if I told the Staff Sergeant, that he reported it
2031 properly. 2 Q: Okay. And on your departure and -- 3 okay. On your departure from CFB Ipperwash and the main 4 gate, what was your understanding of what was happening 5 with the Camp in relation to the occupation and the 6 Military? 7 A: Well the Military was gone, and it 8 was totally under control of the First Nation people that 9 were occupying it. 10 Q: All right. And do you recall having 11 any conversations or receiving any briefings about the 12 role of the OPP in relation to the Camp, now that it was 13 under First Nations -- under the control of the 14 occupiers? 15 A: I don't recall, no. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay. And turning back to your 20 notes, Exhibit P-1208 at page 44 under July 30th. For 21 the benefit of Counsel that's page 42 of Sergeant Parks' 22 notebook. It appears that you were assigned to patrol 23 Ipperwash, Grand Bend. 24 Am I correct in suggesting that your 25 patrol of Ipperwash/Grand Bend was in your capacity as a
2041 constable acting out of the local detachment rather than 2 an ERT member? 3 A: On what day are you talking about 4 here? 5 Q: July 30th, 1995. That's page 42 of 6 your notebook. 7 A: We were on the ERT detail then, at 8 the 30th of July. 9 Q: Okay. I see -- 10 A: Oh, at the start of the page? 11 Q: Yeah. I see an entry at 06:00 hours? 12 A: I was off duty. 13 Q: You were off duty? Okay. 14 A: We patrol after the takeover -- after 15 the Military left we patrolled the area until 06:00, and 16 then I went off. 17 Q: All right. And then you were next on 18 duty at 15:00 hours? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you were on standby at 21 Pinery? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then you went off duty at 23:00 24 hours. Do you -- to your knowledge, did anything of 25 significance occur that day --
2051 A: No. 2 Q: -- that you were involved with? 3 A: I wasn't involved. 4 Q: And similarly on page -- or on July 5 31st you were standing by at Pinery. If you -- that's 6 also noted on page 42 of your notes. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: For the record that's page 44 of 9 Exhibit P-1208. 10 And I see a note, you were dispatched to 11 Ipperwash Park, accompanied by P/C Dougan, and you 12 patrolled Ipperwash Park. 13 Is that correct? 14 A: That is correct. 15 Q: Okay. And did anything else of note 16 happen on July 31st -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- 1995? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. Turning now to August 1st, 21 which is detailed beginning at page 43 of your notes. 22 For the record, that's page 46 of Exhibit P-1208. 23 It appears that you attended in response 24 to a fatal motor vehicle accident on Matheson Drive and 25 assisted -- and that you were the first officer at the
2061 scene, along with P/C Jacklin and Dellemonache; is that 2 correct? 3 A: Constable Jacklin was the first 4 officer at the scene with his partner, I believe, and 5 Constable Dellemonache was my partner for the night, and 6 we arrived to assist. 7 Q: Okay. And you assisted with the 8 clean- up of that accident and -- and the removal of the 9 people from the car? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And you guarded -- if I can 12 take you to Tab 19 of the brief of documents in front of 13 you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: That's Inquiry document number 18 2003791. It appears to be an interview report. 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: Okay. Filled out by you at the -- 21 operating out of the Grand Bend Detachment. 22 A: Hmm, hmm. 23 Q: At the bottom, on July 31st, 1995, it 24 notes that you guarded the motor vehicle accident scene 25 until 05:10, and then at 06:00 hours, you went off duty.
2071 Is -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- that correct? 4 A: That was correct. 5 Q: If we could have that document 6 entered as the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1218, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1218: Document Number 2003791. 10 Handwritten ERT Duty Log by 11 Larry Parks, July 29 to 31, 12 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 15 Q: Did you have any further involvement 16 in the investigation or follow-up with that particular 17 incident? 18 A: No, I did not. I was not the 19 investigator on that accident. 20 Q: All right. And do you have any 21 independent recollection, you -- you've mentioned that 22 you didn't recall learning, or hearing people talk about 23 taking over the Park on the day -- on July 29th. 24 Do you have any independent recollection 25 if you knew, during this time period, the beginning of
2081 August 1995, that people might be occupying the Park, or 2 might intend to occupy the Park? 3 A: I'm not sure when that knowledge came 4 to me in 1995. 5 Q: Okay. Was it some time prior to the 6 occupation of the Park? 7 A: Yes. It would appear that I knew on 8 the -- on the 29th. I may have known it before that, 9 too; I don't recall exactly when I heard that 10 information. 11 Q: Okay. And were you aware, during 12 this time period, do you have any recollection -- I don't 13 see anything in your notes about the possible existence 14 of a burial site within the Park. 15 A: Again, I can't remember when that 16 knowledge came to me. 17 Q: All right. Do you believe it was 18 prior to the occupation of the Park itself? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you. Next, we see a 21 number of documents at Tabs 22, 23 and 24. 22 First of all, it's -- these are -- these 23 documents are titled, Interview Reports. 24 Can you tell us what the function of an 25 interview report is?
2091 A: These were actually log -- we were on 2 ERT detail and we were using just this piece of paper to 3 submit a log of what we had done, or a very brief summary 4 of what we had done, to go into the reporting 5 requirements. 6 Q: Okay. And that's a practice that's 7 specific to your role on ERT? 8 A: It was -- yeah, during this 9 assignment. 10 Q: Okay. So turning first to the 11 document at Tab 22, it's Inquiry document number 2000829. 12 It appears that it's filled out by you and 13 it notes that you were on a -- on a combination of 14 patrols and standbys -- standby at the Pinery and patrols 15 in the Ipperwash area on August 7th, August 8th, August 16 9th, August 10th and August 11th; is that correct? 17 A: That is correct. 18 Q: Okay. And nothing is -- is noted of 19 any significance, it appears there? 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: Right. Is that consistent with your 22 recollection of that time period? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: If I could ask that that document, 25 Inquiry Document Number 2000829, be entered as the next
2101 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1219, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1219: Document Number 2000829. 5 Larry Parks Handwritten OPP 6 Interview Report, August 07 7 to 11, 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Thank you. And turning to Tab 23 11 there's a brief note there. it's Inquiry Document Number 12 2000847. It says "R. W. Bell, L. Parks". 13 Now can you identify, is that something 14 that was completed by you? 15 A: No. That's Constable Bell's report. 16 Q: And it similarly indicates that you 17 were patrolling Ipperwash, presumably with Constable 18 Bell? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And there were no incidents and 21 nothing of significance to -- to report; Is that 22 consistent with your recollection? 23 A: That is. 24 Q: If I can enter that as the next 25 exhibit.
2111 THE REGISTRAR: P-1220, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1220: Document number 2000847. 4 R.W. Bell, OPP , Handwritten 5 note, August 13, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 8 Q: And similarly, and finally at Exhibit 9 -- Tab 24 there's an ERT operational report dated August 10 19th, 1995. It's Inquiry Document Number 2000801. 11 And it would appear to indicate that you 12 were on patrol with Sergeant Graham from 19:00 to 03:00 13 hours in the Ipperwash area and there's nothing of 14 significance that occurred during that time period. 15 A: That is correct. 16 Q: And if we could have that entered as 17 the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1221, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1221: Document Number 2000801. 21 Handwritten Emergency 22 Response Team Operational 23 Report - Shift from 19:00 24 hrs. to 03:00 hrs. Sgt. 25 Graham and PC Parks, August
2121 19, 1995. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Okay. Turning now to -- back to your 5 notes at Tab 2, Exhibit P-1208, pages 53 to 55, appear to 6 detail your activities on August 20th, 1995; is that 7 correct? 8 And that would be pages 58 and 59 of your 9 -- your notebook. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it appears that you investigated 12 a potential conflict situation or theft situation where 13 First Nations people had contact with a family in a boat 14 and there was a cooler involved and the family eventually 15 departed. 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And you also -- first of all, did you 19 -- did you do any further investigation as a result of 20 that report? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: Okay. And there's also a note that 23 you encountered three (3) First Nations people who were 24 in possession of a dead duck. 25 A: Yes.
2131 Q: And you were advised by one (1) of 2 the parties that the duck was going to be eaten. Did you 3 take any further action? 4 First of all, that's -- is that a correct 5 summary of what appears in your notes there? 6 A: That is correct. 7 Q: Okay. And did you take any further 8 action as a result of that -- that contact? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: The next entry we see in your notes, 11 I believe, and Exhibit P-1208 -- oh no, actually it's the 12 document that appears at Tab 28 which is Inquiry Document 13 Number 2003791. 14 Now, this document begins with a 15 statement, a typed statement provided by you following by 16 -- or titled as your statement, followed by a handwritten 17 statement, and followed by your notes for the period 18 September 3rd, 1995 through October 1st, 1995; is that 19 correct? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: All right. Now, I'm just going to be 22 asking you first of all about some of your officers' 23 notes that appear in this document. But if I could ask 24 that it be entered as the next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1222, Your Honour.
2141 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1222: Document Number 2003791. 2 Statement of L.J. Parks and 3 Police notebook entries of 4 Larry Parks from August 31 - 5 October 01, 1995, August 31 - 6 October 01, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 9 Q: That's the document that I've 10 described in its entirety. 11 Now, I spoke in error earlier. The notes 12 actually begin August 31st, 1995, and go through to 13 October 1995; is that correct? 14 A: That is correct. 15 Q: Okay. And you've had a chance to -- 16 to look at this copy of your notes? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: They are your notes -- 19 A: Yes, they are. 20 Q: -- from this time period? Do they 21 represent all your notes relating to the situation at 22 Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes, they do. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2151 2 Q: We see that you are -- and for the 3 record and for the Commissioner's and Counsel's benefit 4 I'm just going to be referring to these notes by the 5 number in the bottom right-hand corner as they appear to 6 be continuous or continuously numbered. 7 You were on patrol on August 31st, 1995; 8 nothing appears -- nothing of significance appears to be 9 noted? 10 A: No, not -- that is correct. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Okay. And then turning to the next 15 page, page 63, I see an entry there -- I'm sorry, the 16 following page -- that at 13:00 hours you are on standby 17 at the Pinery. 18 If -- if you could just assist me, the 19 entry immediately prior to that from the bottom of page 20 63 to the top of page 64, I am having some difficulty 21 with that. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Does that relate to Ipperwash. 24 A: It's -- this is an assault complaint 25 that happened, but I have no -- there's no indication
2161 there's a First Nation involvement. 2 Q: All right. Okay. And do you -- do 3 you recall what that -- that incident concerned? 4 A: It was just an assault complaint from 5 a person who had been drinking in the Park -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- and he did not want any charges 8 laid so it was just noted. 9 Q: All right. Thank you. Okay, so 10 proceeding further down the page at page 64 then on 13:00 11 -- at 13:00 hours you're on standby at Pinery and at 12 16:00 hours you accompany P/C Delle -- Dellemonache? Am 13 I -- 14 A: Dellemonache. Dellemonache. 15 Q: Thank you. To patrol Ipperwash and 16 there's an incident described there at 17:00 hours 17 apparently at the boat ramp. Do you recall that 18 incident? 19 A: I don't have an independent 20 recollection of it, no. 21 Q: All right. Okay. The -- the notes 22 that you see there begin with the name, "Judas"; is that 23 Roderick George that you're describing there? 24 A: Yes, it is. 25 Q: Okay. If you could continue with
2171 just reading your notes? 2 A: "We were at the boat ramp. Judas 3 told male, age fifty (50), not to go 4 onto the Stoney Point beach. He then 5 started yelling at us to do our job. 6 He was also upset [Judas was upset]. I 7 was doing my notes at the time. I then 8 told Judas to settle down. Judas then 9 came over and we had a discussion about 10 Ipperwash. Another male party also 11 came over, joined in the discussion and 12 we had a discussion for a while and 13 there was no -- no more -- no further 14 problems." 15 Q: Okay. And did you do anything 16 further as a result of that contact? 17 A: No, I did not. 18 Q: Okay. If you could continue at 19 17:45, there's an entry? 20 A: "There was a green Broncho at 21 Ipperwash Beach on Matheson Drive. I 22 noted Dudley was in the rear seat of a 23 car. He went up to the truck [he must 24 have been on the -- in that area as 25 well] and he talked to them in the
2181 Broncho. They left the area. Dudley 2 then mooned us [that's my partner and 3 I] and stated, Kiss this. He then went 4 back onto Stoney Point." 5 Q: Okay. And at that time did you know 6 Dudley George? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And was that just from your -- your 9 presence and work in the community? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And the next entry? 12 A: "At 20:35 [I guess we're in the same 13 area again] Dudley stopped. He 14 appeared to expose himself and he 15 yelled something I couldn't understand 16 and he got back into the car and left." 17 Q: Okay. And did you do anything as a 18 result of either of these contacts with Mr. George? 19 A: No, sir (sic). 20 Q: Okay. Okay, and your next entry at 21 22:00 hours. 22 A: "22:00 hours, several pallets were 23 dropped off at the end of Matheson 24 Drive at the beach. I advised Sergeant 25 Korosec. The pallets were lit on fire.
2191 Several Natives attended. One was a 2 male that had music playing from his 3 car and we stood by in the area just 4 while the fire was going on. It was -- 5 several people arrived." 6 Q: Okay. Okay. And just with respect 7 to the location of that fire, was that on -- 8 A: It was the end of Matheson Drive at 9 the beach. So basically on the -- at the beach. 10 Q: At the beach, okay. And did you do 11 anything other than -- that standing by in relation to 12 that fire? 13 A: Nothing at all. 14 Q: Okay. Just one moment. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: My apologies. Okay, and you went off 19 duty on September 4th at 08:00 hours; is that correct? 20 A: Yes, yes. 21 Q: Turning now to September 4th, when 22 did you return to duty? 23 A: At ten o'clock I started duty on the 24 4th of September. 25 Q: All right. And that's indicated at
2201 page 66 of your notes, which, for the record is -- no, 2 page 66 of your notes in Exhibit 1222. 3 And what happened next? 4 A: We are standing by at the Pinery. We 5 stayed there, eleven o'clock Constable Dellemonache and I 6 started to patrol the Ipperwash area. 7 The first incident we had was at 1:05. We 8 were dispatched to Port Franks about Natives harassing 9 people on the beach. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: 1:15 we met the reporting party at 12 Port Franks. 13 Q: And what information was provided to 14 you? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: He -- he reported two (2) incidents 19 on the beach. Basically, they were chased off the beach 20 by Dudley's car, it says in my notes. 21 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 31 of 22 your brief of documents. That's Inquiry document number 23 2003646. It appears to be the statement of a Sharon K. 24 Kimmerly, K-I-M-M-E-R-L-Y. And there's a handwritten 25 interview report attached to it.
2211 First of all, was that interview report 2 filled out by you, Sergeant Parks? 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: Okay. And it's dated September 4th 5 as well. And does that report reflect the information 6 that was provided by -- to you by Ms. Kimmerly? 7 A: Yes, it does. 8 Q: Okay. And it essentially details the 9 incident you have reflected in your notes? 10 A: I'm not sure if this relates to a 11 different incident, the note -- the previous ones I 12 talked about. 13 Q: All right. Do you have any 14 independent recollection of speaking to Ms. Kimmerly? 15 A: Yes, I remember. 16 Q: Okay. So the reporting party that's 17 listed in your notes, that's a male person? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Right. And next at 2:05 you 20 spoke to Ms. Kimmerly. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And can you describe, in 23 summary, what the incident she reported involved? 24 A: She had -- basically reporting 25 harassment on the Stoney Point beach.
2221 Q: Okay. And did you take any action or 2 do any further investigation as a result of either of 3 these reports -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- that were made to you? 6 A: No, I passed them along to -- to the 7 chain of command and that was the end of my involvement. 8 Q: All right. Thank you. The next 9 entry we have noted there is at 14:40 that you'd finished 10 taking the statement. And if you can assist me with what 11 you have written next. 12 A: "Attend at the MNR parking lot. 13 Advised by Sergeant Korosec to patrol 14 Matheson Drive." 15 Q: And that is for the record on page 67 16 of Sergeant Parks' notes. And what is the next incident 17 of significance that occurs on September 4th? 18 A: "At 16:07 Constable Jacklin and Myers 19 requested assistance at the end of 20 Matheson Drive and the beach. 21 Judas was advising us to leave. A 22 discussion took place." 23 I have -- that's all of my notes of that. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Do you have 25 independent recollection of that -- that discussion?
2231 A: No, I do not. 2 Q: Okay. And to continue your next 3 entry. 4 A: "At 16:45 we left the area [I believe 5 that's the beach area]. We attempted 6 to stop vehicles on Matheson Drive." 7 We had received instructions to stop 8 vehicles on the road, I believe from Sergeant Korosec who 9 was my supervisor. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: "We didn't have any luck stopping the 12 vehicles." 13 Q: Does that mean vehicles failed to 14 stop? 15 A: Yes. They would -- we tried to stop 16 them and they'd go back into Stoney Point. We did not go 17 into follow them. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And what followed 19 that? 20 A: Once we found out they weren't going 21 to stop, we discontinued and then -- I have in my notes I 22 sat at the boat ramp on Ipperwash Park. 23 "Judas and several others attended and 24 we had another discussion. Patrolled 25 the Park."
2241 Q: Can you recall the nature of that 2 discussion? 3 A: It was amicable I guess. There's no 4 -- no issues raised. 5 Q: Okay. And you patrolled the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then at 16:40 -- or 18:45 you 8 left the Park and proceeded to Pinery for a break? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what's the next incident of 11 occurrence or of significance that -- that you have noted 12 there? 13 A: 19:30 returned to the Park. The 14 Natives had taken over the Park when we were gone for 15 lunch. We then went to -- I went to the main gate kiosk 16 area and I was there for some time. 17 Q: And what did you observe there? 18 A: I can't remember how many police cars 19 were there when we got there but there was some police 20 cruisers already there. There was several First Nation 21 people milling around as well. 22 Q: Okay. And how long did you remain in 23 that area? 24 A: Some time after approximately 21:45 I 25 was there till.
2251 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And did anything 2 else of significance happen while -- did -- first of all, 3 did you have any conversations with -- with any of the 4 people occu -- who had moved into the Park? 5 A: Yes, we had conversations. 6 Q: Okay. And what were the nature of 7 those conversations? 8 A: I only had one (1) noted in my 9 notebook but we continued with other conversations. 10 Q: Okay. Do you have any independent 11 recollection? 12 A: Of the other conversations? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: No. 15 Q: No. Okay. All right. And can you 16 describe -- you have noted there, "At dusk someone 17 started throwing flares"; do you recall that? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Do you recall that independently? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you tell us about it? 22 A: Flares were being thrown from -- it 23 was dusk, it was starting to get a little hard to see, 24 from the First Nations people. They started throwing 25 them at the police cars and in the general area of the
2261 police. 2 I remember one just barely flew by me and 3 I'm wearing a nylon vest, I quite concerned that I could 4 have started on fire. As that one went by, Don Matheson 5 who was a Park Superintendent, he said, Dave -- David 6 George threw that one. 7 Q: Okay. And did you observe David 8 George throwing it? 9 A: No, I did not observe him. 10 Q: Okay. And what happened to the 11 flare? 12 A: They went out of their own accord. 13 We tried stomping them out but they wouldn't -- they 14 wouldn't go out. 15 Q: And did you take any further action 16 at that time in relation to the -- the throwing of 17 flares? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: And what other officers were 20 immediately around you at that time? 21 A: I don't exactly remember how many 22 officers were there at exactly that time. 23 Q: And where were you situated at that 24 point? 25 A: We were in the -- I was still in the
2271 kiosk area of the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 3 A: I have in my notes that Judas arrived 4 and advised us to leave the Park. He gave us fifteen 5 (15) minutes to leave. The window of the cruiser -- of 6 our cruiser was smashed out. I have in my notes that 7 Judas used a stick; smashed the window of the car. 8 Q: And do you have anything further to 9 add to your -- what's noted in your notes based on your 10 memory? 11 A: No. No. 12 Q: Please continue. 13 A: At one (1) point, or just after this 14 Glenny George approached me. He advised me that his 15 Elders were getting an arrest warrant for me. 16 I went to move Constable Speck's car and 17 Glenny then approached me again. He advised me that they 18 would be coming for me and I would be put in the 19 stockade. 20 Q: And was Constable Speck with you at 21 that point? 22 A: No, I don't so -- believe so because 23 I was moving his car. He wasn't able to move or 24 something. I don't know what he was -- what he was 25 involved in.
2281 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you respond 2 to Mr. George? 3 A: Not that I recall, no. 4 Q: All right. Okay. And what happened 5 next? 6 A: I had -- we -- we then left the Park. 7 Q: And do you know why you were leaving 8 the Park? Were you ordered to leave the Park? 9 A: It was on the instructions of 10 Sergeant Korosec that we left. 11 Q: All right. And you heard him issue 12 those instructions? 13 A: Yeah. He was -- or I got them 14 anyway. He was the ranking officer on the scene at the 15 time. 16 Q: All right. And he was the -- what 17 was his relation to you on the ERT team? 18 A: He was -- he was a team leader at 19 the time. 20 Q: All right. He was your team leader-- 21 A: Yes, he was my team -- 22 Q: -- from District 1? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And to your knowledge was Korosec -- 25 did Korosec indicate to your or did you observe him
2291 receiving instructions from anyone else about your 2 departure from the Park? 3 A: You'll have to ask him. 4 Q: Did you observe him talking to anyone 5 directly, a superior officer? 6 A: He at one (1) time told me he was 7 talking to Inspector Carson. 8 Q: At one (1) time he told -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- but not at that time? 11 A: I can't really recall exactly. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. And we will 13 ask him. 14 Okay. And you then left the Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Just to -- to go back a little bit 17 was there any follow-up as a result or what happened as a 18 result of the -- the flares being thrown? 19 Did you further investigate or take any 20 action as a result of that? 21 A: I told the -- at the debriefing the 22 next morning I told the Criminal Investigating Unit, 23 Detective Sergeant Richardson, I told -- talked to him 24 about it and there was a charge preferred. 25 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you to Tab
2301 34 of the brief of documents in front of you. There is 2 there Inquiry Document Number 2004335; it's a general 3 occurrence report. 4 It appears to have been filed by Constable 5 Vandenberg; is that correct? 6 A: It's a civilian. 7 Q: A civilian, sorry. And do you know 8 if that occurrence report was completed on the basis of 9 your advice or information you provided? 10 A: Yes, it was. 11 Q: And did you speak to -- was it Ms. 12 Vandenberg? 13 A: I spoke to Detective Sergeant 14 Richardson. 15 Q: Okay. So this information would 16 have come at least third-hand, but you don't know what -- 17 A: I don't know the -- what -- what road 18 it took. 19 Q: -- Richardson did. All right. Thank 20 you. 21 And what became of those charges that you 22 know of? 23 A: I believe there was a conviction 24 registered. 25 Q: Okay.
2311 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And turning now in your notes to 4 pages 69 and 70, well perhaps it's better that I ask you 5 if you have any recollection of what happened next, after 6 your departure from the Park? 7 A: I have in my notes here that we 8 assisted -- we went to the Pinery and cleaned out our 9 equipment. We'd been staying at the Pinery at the time. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And we came back, and at 23:00 we 12 were assigned to assist with a possible message delivery. 13 Q: Okay. Did you know what the nature 14 of the message was? 15 A: Not directly, no. 16 Q: And what happened next? 17 A: We actually went out towards the Park 18 and stood by while Constable George and Park 19 Superintendent Kobayashi tried to deliver a message. 20 Q: Okay. And again, you had -- you -- 21 you weren't aware, or you don't recall -- do you know if 22 at any point you were aware of the nature of the message 23 they were attempting to deliver? 24 A: I don't recall, no. 25 Q: And what did you observe?
2321 A: I can't recall now. 2 Q: All right. Do you know where you 3 were situated? 4 A: Yeah, we're in the bushes, just 5 standing by with the -- by the front gate. 6 Q: Okay. And what was -- what was your 7 role there? 8 A: Just to provide back-up, personal -- 9 protection for the officers, and that was it. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay. And at any time did it become 14 necessary for -- for any of the officers providing back 15 up to do anything? 16 A: No, we did not do anything. 17 Q: Okay. And I'm sorry if you've 18 already answered this question. Did you -- did you see 19 whether Constable George or Mr. Kobayashi were able to 20 deliver any kind of message to anyone? 21 A: I don't recall now what happened. 22 Q: Okay. Okay, the next entry I see in 23 your notes is at 01:00 hours. I take it that would be on 24 September 5th? 25 A: Yes, it is.
2331 Q: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 3 be a good point to take a recess for the afternoon? 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, I believe so. 5 Thank you, Commissioner. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: All right. 7 Commissioner, perhaps before we break, I just wanted to 8 explain. I've sent to My Friends an e-mail in the last 9 few minutes, distributing a copy of the gatehouse video 10 log. 11 It's four (4) pages long. It wasn't in 12 the database. I understand that, from Ms. Tuck-Jackson 13 who tracked it down, that it had been inadvertently not 14 scanned. It had been involved in going back and forth to 15 the privacy information Commissioner's office. 16 And I've also provided to My Friends a -- 17 another copy of Exhibit P-1200. 18 The scanned copy is just simply missing 19 page 23. And this copy has page 23 and I propose, with 20 your permission, to simply add page 23 to the exhibit 21 copy. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 Thank you. We'll take a break now. 24 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, 25 Commissioner.
2341 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 2:33 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 2:50 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed, please be seated. 9 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Welcome back, 10 Commissioner, Sergeant Parks. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 13 Q: You will recall, immediately before 14 the break we were turning to September 5 at 1:00 a.m. 15 when -- when your notes indicate, Sergeant Parks, that 16 you attended a briefing at the Forest Detachment. 17 First of all do you have an independent 18 recollection of that briefing? 19 A: No, I do not. 20 Q: And do you know who provided the 21 briefing to you? 22 A: I don't recall that time, no. 23 Q: Okay. And with the assistance of 24 your notes, perhaps, could you tell us what happened at 25 that briefing?
2351 A: My assignment from the briefing was 2 to take the St. John Ambulance out to East Parkway Drive 3 and set up the TOC or the Tactical Operations Centre. 4 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you to Tab 5 29 of the brief of documents in front of you? 6 What's -- what appears there are excerpts 7 from the scribe notes from September 4th and 5th, which 8 have been entered in these proceedings as Exhibit P-426. 9 Now, if I could turn you to page 14 of 10 those scribe notes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You'll see there, at 01:27 hours, it 13 has noted: 14 "Mark Wright briefing 1 and 2 ERT in 15 presence of John Carson." 16 Were you a member of -- you would be a 17 member of 1 ERT? 18 A: I was a member of the 1 ERT. 19 Q: Okay. It has noted there: 20 "JOHN CARSON: Be careful, media will 21 be everywhere. A lot like situation in 22 BC. 23 JOHN CARSON: On hours off, be careful 24 you're safety. Don't speak to anyone 25 about this anywhere, coffee shop, et
2361 cetera. A lot of planning into this. 2 Safety is important. Rather have ten 3 (10) guys too many than one (1) not 4 enough. No big deal with damaged 5 vehicle. If you get caught in jackpot 6 I'd rather have one (1) bent metal than 7 you injured. Drive the Crown Victoria 8 through the fence." 9 Now, does that scribe note entry assist 10 you in any respect as to the... 11 A: No, I had a couple of briefings that 12 day and that doesn't help me much more. 13 Q: All right. Do you remember 14 receiving, at any time, this advice from Inspector 15 Carson? 16 A: That's pretty standard advice. 17 Q: Okay. All right. And at 01:34 18 hours, on the same page, it's noted: 19 "MARK WRIGHT: We need structured chain 20 of command. 21 JOHN CARSON: Forest will be only a 22 command office. We want to do this 23 right. Everyone from here to federal 24 people. 25 MARK WRIGHT: I'm not telling what to
2371 carry or not to carry firearm, re. 2 firearm, long guns. Use common sense, 3 the tactical part is Stan Korosec's 4 call." 5 Now, can you recall receiving that advice? 6 A: I don't recall that, no. 7 Q: Okay. And is it normal practice -- I 8 -- I understand that you've likely been out on numerous 9 ERT call-outs -- 10 A: Yes, I have. 11 Q: -- and operations? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Is it normal practice for it to be 14 left to your discretion what firearm to carry? 15 A: The ERT has a very -- command 16 structure, a very rigid command structure and we would do 17 what the -- the team leader told us to do. 18 Q: Right. And in your case that would 19 be Stan Korosec? 20 A: At that time, yes. 21 Q: And do you recall what firearm you 22 were instructed to carry by Stan Korosec? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: And on the next page at 01:40 hours, 25 that's page 15:
2381 "St. John explained options of meals 2 being provided. Paul Herding, driver. 3 Introduced to P/C Parks to show him the 4 location." 5 Q: Does that -- do you recall being 6 introduced to a St. John ambulance personnel -- 7 A: Yes, I took them out to the TOC site. 8 Q: All right. And at 01:48 hours: 9 "Returned to briefing of Stan Korosec. 10 JOHN CARSON: We stopped everyone to 11 ID, we can't stop press." 12 And do you recall receiving that 13 information? 14 A: I don't recall, no. 15 Q: Okay. On leaving the Forest 16 Detachment, your notes indicate that you went to the TOC 17 and you were not assigned to a checkpoint at that time; 18 is that correct? 19 A: That is correct. 20 Q: Okay. And again, what were your 21 activities while you were at the TOC? 22 A: Well, basically, we're getting the 23 vehicles in position out there. And I don't recall 24 anything else we had to do. 25 Q: Okay. The next entry you have is at
2391 08:30 hours: 2 "Attended Forest for a debriefing." 3 This is, by the way, on page 70 of your 4 notes: 5 "Discussed criminal cases with 6 Detective Sergeant Richardson." 7 Would that be the cases involving -- the 8 case involving the flare? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: Were there any other criminal cases 11 that you would be discussing with Richardson at that 12 point, that you can recall? 13 A: Not that I can recall, no. 14 Q: Okay. And do you recall what the 15 standing on September 5th -- what the standing 16 instructions were? I understand that other members of 17 your ERT team and District 2 ERT were assigned to 18 checkpoints at that point; is that correct? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: You don't recall. Okay. And do you 21 recall, at any point, receiving instructions about what 22 would happen on September 5th, at any checkpoint? 23 A: Not at that time, no. 24 Q: All right. And we will come later to 25 your presence at a -- at a checkpoint on that day.
2401 Okay, to return to 08:30 hours, you 2 returned to Forest for a debriefing and then you went off 3 duty at 10:00 a.m.? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: After speaking to Richardson. And 6 you returned to duty at 17:30 hours, does that say, in 7 your notebook? 8 A: Yes, that is 17:30. 9 Q: Okay. For the record, that's page 70 10 of Sergeant Parks' notes in Exhibit P-1222. 11 And what happened then, on your return to 12 duty? 13 A: We went to Forest and we had a 14 briefing, and my assignment was to Checkpoint 'C', Army 15 Camp Road at Sunnydale (sic) Trailer Park, with Constable 16 Hall and Horzempa and Dellemonache, who was my partner. 17 Q: Okay. And what -- first of all, if I 18 could ask for Mr. Millar's assistance. I believe he has 19 a map to assist us in situating the -- the checkpoint 20 locations. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 22 what I might do is, before I throw this next chart up, 23 the -- we have three (3) charts of the checkpoints that 24 were provided to us by the OPP as a guide, which I will 25 have ready -- I'm going to -- I'll distribute these three
2411 (3) photographs -- three (3) plans to My Friends on 2 Monday, because they're going to be photocopied. 3 The -- we have marked Exhibit 437, which 4 was the location -- Exhibit 437 was a location of the 5 checkpoints in the evening of September the 6th. 6 And the -- and in the evidence of John 7 Carson on that particular document, Checkpoint 'C' is 8 farther down -- farther down Army -- south on Army Camp 9 Road. So what I was going to do is throw up this 10 document, this chart, which is a chart for those 11 checkpoints for September 5th and 6th, and it shows the 12 location of the checkpoints on -- on the 5th and 13 overnight in the 6th. Then we have another one for the 14 6th and the 7th. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 The one you're going to throw up now, is that the one 17 you're going to distribute on Monday? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 23 Q: Okay. You might want to take a 24 moment to familiarize yourself with that map. 25
2421 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you'll see in front of you, 4 Sergeant -- can you see? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The screen? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Adequately there? You'll see in 9 front of you there is a laser pointer -- black. 10 Can you identify for us where you were 11 situated at the checkpoint that you were assigned to at 12 17:30 hours on September 5th? 13 A: Right at Checkpoint 'C', right where 14 they have it marked. 15 Q: Okay. So that would -- that 16 checkpoint would be within view of the -- the bend in the 17 road, between Army Camp Road and Parkway Drive; is that 18 correct? 19 A: Somewhat. There's a little bit of a 20 hollow there, so it's not real, real visible. 21 Q: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Okay. And was that checkpoint at the
2431 entrance to the Sunnydale Trailer Park? 2 Okay, first of all, can you identify on 3 the map where the Sunnydale Trailer Park would be? 4 A: It's right where the "C" is, that -- 5 that's correct. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- it was at approximately the front 10 gate of the camp, or the front entrance to that trailer 11 park. 12 Q: All right. Okay. And what was your 13 understanding of what you were to do at that checkpoint? 14 A: I don't have any notes exactly of 15 what -- what our instructions were at that time of the 16 night. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Do you have any 18 recollection? 19 A: My recollection is we were just to 20 advise people that were going through that you maybe 21 shouldn't go through, and that was basically it. 22 We were taking names, I believe, and 23 that's all we were doing. 24 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 25 taking names?
2441 A: Just to see if there was any 2 outsiders coming to the area. 3 Q: And by "outsiders" you mean -- 4 A: Agitators or, you know, people 5 unknown to us. 6 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you to Tab 7 35 of the brief of documents in front of you. And I do 8 apologize to My Friends, this document was not mentioned 9 in the list of documents that circulated. 10 I can advise that it's Inquiry Document 11 Number 2000721. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: The first page indicates checkpoint 16 locations, with Checkpoint 'C' being located at the Army 17 Camp Road at Sunnyside Trailer park. 18 The second page lists checkpoint duties. 19 Now, first of all, do you recognize this -- this 20 document? 21 A: I don't remember ever seeing this 22 document before. 23 Q: Okay. And the document indicates 24 that your job is to -- and I'm quoting here directly from 25 the second page:
2451 "Your job is to prevent all 2 vehicles/pedestrians from going by you 3 towards Ipperwash Provincial Park. The 4 only exception is for people who live 5 in the area within the blocked off 6 area. These people shall be allowed to 7 proceed, but ask them to remain away 8 from Ipperwash Provincial Park. 9 No comment -- make no comment to the 10 media, should they attend. Refer them 11 to Sergeant Doug Babbitt. 12 The media will not be allowed past the 13 checkpoints." 14 Now, is this set of instructions 15 consistent with your role and instructions that you 16 recall or -- you've indicated you don't recall 17 instructions, but is this consistent with the function 18 you were performing on September 5th? 19 A: Similar. I believe at that time we 20 were not absolutely prohibiting people through the area. 21 Q: Okay. Right. If -- and if I could 22 just get that document entered as the next exhibit, 23 please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1223, Your Honour. 25
2461 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1223: Document Number 2000721. OPP 2 Checkpoint Locations and 3 Duties. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 6 Q: All right. And if I could also take 7 you to another one of the documents that appears tucked 8 in the front of your binder. This was produced by your 9 Counsel last week. It's Part 10 Police Orders 10 Operations. 11 A rather long document and no page numbers 12 appear on it, but if I could direct your attention -- 13 first of all, do you recognize these -- these police 14 orders? 15 A: Yes, they were, at the time, our 16 operational orders, standing orders. 17 Q: Okay. And at the time would you have 18 been familiar with the contents of these orders? 19 A: Somewhat. There was two (2) volumes. 20 Hmm hmm. 21 Q: All right. So ideally familiar with 22 the contents? 23 A: Ideally I would be familiar, but 24 there were two (2) volumes, some -- some of it had some 25 stuff that you didn't use very often.
2471 Q: Very many words. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And if I could take you to paragraph 4 number 1243.3 to begin, it is about six (6) pages -- five 5 (5) pages from the back of the document. It's in a 6 section entitled, Checkpoint System Intent. 7 First of all, I should ask you, what's 8 your understanding of the -- the purpose of police 9 orders, in general? 10 A: They were the standing orders, 11 operational and administration-wise, that's why there's 12 some con -- I guess I could say that at times you're not 13 familiar with the administration part. If you weren't 14 doing the administration part, then you would not review 15 them as much as the operational side. 16 Q: Okay. And -- but on the operational 17 side, these orders would -- would govern your conduct in 18 the organization of the operation? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that your understanding? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And to take you to 1243.3 it's 23 in a section entitled, Checkpoint System Intent. 1243.1 24 begins off with: 25 "The checkpoint system is designed to
2481 reduce the rigidity of checkpoint 2 operations throughout the OPP." 3 And to go down to 1243.3, it indicates: 4 "A checkpoint operation is an 5 investigative aid to assist in the 6 early apprehension of the persons 7 responsible for the commission of a 8 crime." 9 Now, is that intent consistent with what 10 you understood your role to be on September 5th? 11 A: I guess responsible or possible 12 commission of a crime, I guess. Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Okay. And going down to Checkpoint 14 Operation, which is directly below? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: It outlines in 1244.1, a number -- 17 three (3) different models: Model Number 1, checkpoint 18 being stopping all vehicles with two (2) members at a 19 specified location, questioning the occupants, and 20 completing a form LE120 Checkpoint Record. 21 Model Number 2 is an observation point 22 where a member shall take up the strategic position at a 23 specified location and observe for a wanted person or 24 vehicle. 25 Or Model Number 3, a concentrated patrol
2491 where a member shall mount a patrol in a specified area 2 keeping watch for a wanted person or vehicles. 3 To you understanding were you -- are any 4 of those descriptions consistent with the checkpoint that 5 you were operating on the evening of September 5th? 6 A: It was a Model 1 checkpoint. 7 Q: Right. Were you instructed that it 8 was a Model 1 checkpoint or was that just consistent with 9 the -- your -- 10 A: I don't think it was used that we 11 were going to be constructing a Model 1, but that was the 12 basic intent of it. 13 Q: Okay. Okay. And turning to two (2) 14 pages on, the second last page of the document, 15 "Checkpoint Procedures, Model Number 1." 16 So I take it on September 5th you were not 17 blocking the road, so much as stopping -- did you stop 18 every vehicle that passed through? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what information did you request 21 from each person? 22 A: I think just basically a driver's 23 licence or identification. 24 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you turn 25 any people away or prevent any people from -- from
2501 entering or proceeding? 2 A: I don't recall now. 3 Q: Okay. And paragraph number 1248.7 4 outlines: 5 "When conducting a Model Number 1 6 checkpoint, one (1) member shall 7 question the person stopped and 8 complete form LE120 Checkpoint Record. 9 During these actions the view of the 10 observing member shall not be 11 obstructed." 12 Is that the procedure that you followed on 13 the evening of September 5th? 14 A: Basically, I had four (4) people 15 there, so there was lots of people to watch the vehicles. 16 Q: Okay. And was it unusual to have -- 17 first of all, prior to this had you manned any 18 checkpoints? 19 A: I would assume so, yes, it was twenty 20 (20) years after I started so. 21 Q: And was it unusual to have four (4) 22 people at a checkpoint? 23 A: All depends what kind of an 24 assignment it was. 25 Q: Okay.
2511 A: I've been on, you know, numerous ERT 2 assignments and it varies with the degree of the 3 incident. 4 Q: Okay. And on the next page in 5 paragraph number 1248.8, it notes: 6 "Observing members may as a deterrent 7 measure hold their weapon at the ready 8 and in full view." 9 Did you have your weapon out and in full 10 view on the evening of September 5th? 11 A: I don't believe so, no. 12 Q: And do you recall or do you have 13 noted anywhere what you were armed with on that evening? 14 A: I was carrying a 40 caliber sidearm 15 at the time, so I would be wearing that. 16 Q: All right. Did you have a long gun 17 with you? 18 A: I may have had it in the trunk of the 19 car. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: Or I would have had it in the trunk 22 of the car. 23 Q: And you didn't have occasion to take 24 it out at any point? 25 A: No.
2521 Q: If I could ask if these Police 2 Orders, Part 10, be entered as the next exhibit please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1224, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1224: Part 10, Police Orders, 6 Operations. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 9 Q: Okay. And just for the sake of 10 completion of the record, you have also provided -- your 11 Counsel has also provided me with another document 12 entitled, Ontario Provincial Police Orders, Chapter 2, 13 Law Enforcement. 14 Do you see that at the front of your book? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: Okay. Now, going back to Exhibit P- 17 1224, these were the Standing Orders in 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And can you identify the 20 document that I just referred you to? 21 A: These are the Standing Orders as 22 currently they are. 23 Q: Okay. Do you when -- when these 24 Standing Orders came into effect? 25 A: I don't recall, no.
2531 Q: All right. And I will merely refer 2 you to page 2 under Exigency and in the section titled, 3 Checkpoint System. It also specifies in the second full 4 paragraph from the top: 5 "A checkpoint operation is an 6 investigative aid to assist in the 7 early apprehension of the persons 8 responsible for the commission of a 9 crime." 10 And that -- is that consistent with your 11 understanding of the purpose of checkpoints? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: Okay. And on September -- first of 14 all going back to September 4th during your attendance -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 16 going to be an exhibit also? 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, it is. Thank 18 you, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: If I can enter 21 this as the next exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1225, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1225: OPP Police Orders, Chapter 2: 25 Law Enforcement.
2541 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 3 Q: Turning back to September 4th, do you 4 recall what uniform you were wearing? 5 A: On September 4th I was wearing a blue 6 uniform, the standard police uniform. 7 Q: All right. And on September 5th what 8 uniform were you wearing? 9 A: I changed to our grey tactical 10 uniform for ERT members. 11 Q: Okay. And did your entire team make 12 the same change? 13 A: Yes, we did. 14 Q: Okay. And can you tell us, if you 15 will, what -- what the significance of the change of 16 uniform was, or what the reason for it was? 17 A: I guess that -- you should check with 18 the command staff to -- they would authorize the chan -- 19 wearing of uniforms. 20 Q: All right. So you received 21 instructions as to the -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And do you have -- can you 24 share with us any insight as to the reason for the change 25 -- the change of uniform from the 4th to the 5th.
2551 A: I'll defer that to the person who 2 made that decision. 3 Q: All right. And so -- while you're 4 manning the checkpoint, does anything of significance 5 happen at the checkpoint location? 6 A: Not at the checkpoint location. 7 Q: Okay. What is the next significant 8 event that happened that evening? 9 A: At 22:40 we heard a radio request for 10 assistance at the end of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 11 Drive. This officer had called requesting us attend. We 12 left the checkpoint and went down there. 13 Q: All four (4) of you? 14 A: I don't recall now. 15 Q: All right. Please continue. 16 A: We arrived at the intersection. I 17 could see that were -- barricades had been set up and 18 picnic tables. I have in my notes here: 19 "We pushed the Natives back and moved 20 the barricades. And the police then 21 when back. The Natives started 22 throwing stones and we left the area." 23 Q: All right. And do you have 24 independent recollection of that particular occurrence? 25 A: Not a whole lot but some.
2561 Q: All right. Can you provide us with 2 any further information other than what's contained in 3 your notes? 4 A: Not much more. I remember one time - 5 - there's only certain things stick out in your mind. I 6 remember at one time the cruiser was in amongst the 7 picnic tables or whatever and I remember a couple of 8 First Nation people coming with a guard rail towards the 9 cruiser. Like, they were carrying it. 10 And that's the clearest memory I have of 11 that. I remember seeing that guard rail coming towards 12 the cruiser. 13 Q: All right. And was that of concern 14 to you? 15 A: I think it was dropped. I don't 16 think it even hit the cruiser, but it's just one (1) of 17 the things I remember of it. 18 Q: Okay. And were the -- did you 19 witness a cruiser moving any picnic tables? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Okay. And I'm sorry if you've 22 already described this, but how many -- how many cruisers 23 were there? 24 A: I think when I arrived, we were only 25 a short distance away, there might have been two (2) cars
2571 and, you know, I was a -- there -- short time passed, 2 some more came along. 3 Q: All right, and how many? 4 A: I don't -- I don't remember how many. 5 I mean, I guess, trying to remember, but maybe five (5) 6 or six (6) cruisers ended up there. 7 Q: All right. And how many officers 8 were present? 9 A: I'm assuming that there was -- at 10 that time, we were two (2) man cars, so if there were 11 five (5) cars, there'd be ten (10) officers there. 12 Q: Right. And your notes indicate: 13 "We pushed natives back. Removed 14 barricades back." 15 Can you provide more detail on what 16 "pushed" means in the -- in these circumstances? 17 A: I -- okay, I haven't a lot of memory 18 -- recall about -- independent recall about that. There 19 was no physical confrontation. Like there was no, you 20 know, hand to hand touching of each other, but I remember 21 just the presence seemed to push things back. 22 Q: Okay. And forgive me, but the verb 23 suggests that there's some action involved. Would -- at 24 any point, did officers move towards the people? 25 A: Yeah, we -- we did move towards the
2581 First Nation people and -- but, you know, it's my -- 2 it's a little sketchy now, after all these years. 3 Q: Okay. All right. And just one (1) 4 moment please. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Okay, and you then departed. How 9 long would you say that you were on the scene there? 10 A: I don't think it was any more than a 11 minute or two (2). 12 Q: Okay. And what was the reason for 13 your departure? 14 A: Well, the stones started coming from 15 the Park and they were starting to smash against the 16 windshields of the cruisers, so I -- collectively, we 17 decided that it was -- it's time to leave and not safe to 18 be here. 19 Q: And you say "collectively", did you 20 receive any order from anyone to leave? 21 A: I don't recall that, no. 22 Q: Okay. And were you -- did any rocks 23 hit your cruiser? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. How far away from the -- the
2591 picnic tables in the sandy parking lot -- were you 2 actually in the sandy parking lot yourself? 3 A: I can't exactly remember how far I 4 got or in there. 5 Q: So you can't recall how far you were 6 from the tables themselves? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: Could you overhear any conversation 9 or did you have any conversations yourself? 10 A: No, I think -- I'm sure there was 11 lots of yelling and the usual, but I didn't -- I don't 12 remember any of the conversations. 13 Q: Okay. Right. What did you do on 14 leaving that area? 15 A: I went back up to the checkpoint 16 again. 17 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 18 A: 7:15 a.m. I went back to -- I guess 19 there's the tape. 20 Q: Yeah. Now, I understand that at some 21 point that evening you made a report. If I can turn you 22 to Tab 32 of the briefing documents in front of you. 23 It indicates there a call came in at 23:42 24 hours on September 5th, 1995, to the Chatham 25 Communications Centre.
2601 It indicates LP meaning Larry Parks, Lima 2 2, 22-14. Lima 2 responds, 24-14, Lima 2. 3 You say: 4 "Just to advise that a large amount of 5 gunfire from the Camp, Army Camp. 6 LIMA 2: 10-4. Did all units hear 7 that message? 8 UNKNOWN [an unknown person]: No, 9 you're mumbling too much. 10 LIMA 2: Aay it again, don't mumble. 11 [That maybe, Say it again]" 12 And you indicate: 13 "We're hearing large amounts of 14 automatic gunfire way back in the Army 15 Base." 16 Do you recall making that call? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And do you recall what observations 19 on your part gave rise to you making that call? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you describe them for us? 22 A: It was approximately an hour after 23 the incident at the end of the road. We'd come back to 24 the checkpoint and we were standing around. It was quiet 25 at the checkpoint and I remember hearing bursts of
2611 automatic gunfire coming from what I believed to be about 2 a kilometre away down by the beach in the Army Camp. 3 Q: Okay. And you say "automatic"; how 4 did you know it was automatic? 5 A: I've been -- you know through my 6 training with ERT and the OPP, I've been on Military 7 Bases, I've worked beside the Army Camp for all -- been 8 twenty (20) years. I have fired automatic weapons 9 actually on the Army Camp. 10 Q: When did you fire automatic weapons 11 on the Army Camp? 12 A: It was back in the late 70's. We had 13 a demonstration day there and they allowed us to fire two 14 (2) of their automatic weapons. 15 Q: Okay. Have you had any specific 16 training concerning automatic weapons; their use, their 17 maintenance? 18 A: No, I have not. 19 Q: All right. And other than your 20 proximity to what you assumed to be automatic weapons 21 fire coming from Military Bases as part of ERT training 22 do you have any other education or experience that would 23 enhance your ability to distinguish between automatic 24 gunfire and other types of gunfire? 25 A: No education part.
2621 Q: Okay. So what you've described for 2 us is firing an automatic weapon in the late 70's as well 3 as your proximity to automatic weapon fire or what you 4 understood to be automatic weapon fire is there any other 5 information that you would have or any -- any other 6 knowledge you would have that would contribute to an 7 understanding or an ability to distinguish -- 8 A: Well just -- 9 Q: -- one (1) kind of gunfire from 10 another? 11 A: No, just from my experience of seeing 12 the automatic weapons being fired and hearing that sound. 13 Q: Okay. And what is that sound can you 14 describe it? 15 A: Well, it's a real sharp, crisp sound. 16 The repetition is uniform. 17 Q: And that's what you -- you heard on 18 the evening of September 5th? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: All right. How long was it after 21 hearing that that you made the call to the -- to the Comm 22 Centre? 23 A: Directly after. 24 Q: All right. So it's your belief that 25 you heard, what you describe there shortly before 23:42
2631 hours? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And just a moment's brief 4 indulgence, Commissioner. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. And if -- if I could 9 enter that -- the document, the call at 23:42 hours at 10 Tab 32 as the next exhibit, please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1226, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1226: Transcript of Larry Parks to 14 Lima 2 at 23:42 hrs, 15 September 05, 1995, Region 16 01, Chatham Communications 17 Centre, Tape number 0143, 18 Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 21 Q: Now, turning to Tab 33, see there a 22 transcript of another call that occurred at 23:46 hours. 23 It appears to be a call to you from Lima 1? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Is that...?
2641 A: That's correct. 2 Q: That's correct? It indicates: 3 "LIMA 1: 24-14, Lima 1." 4 You respond: 5 "Lima 1, 24-14." 6 What does "24-14" mean -- 7 A: That was the call-sign we were using 8 that night. 9 Q: All right. 10 "LIMA 1: Yeah. Larry, the weapon 11 fire you're hearing, is it -- does it 12 sound like a rifle, automatic fire?" 13 You respond: 14 "That's 10-4." 15 Lima 1 asks: 16 "Is that shotgun, automatic, or semi- 17 automatic?" 18 You respond: 19 "It sounded fully automatic. 20 "LIMA 1: How many rounds would you 21 figure you heard?" 22 You respond: 23 "Fifty (50) to one hundred (100). 24 Anyhow, it stopped now. 25 LIMA 1: Sounded [like] -- just like
2651 one (1) firearm going off?" 2 You respond: 3 "That's 10-4." 4 "LIMA 1: Yeah, 10-4." 5 Do you recall receiving that phone call 6 and having that phone conversation? 7 A: That was a radio transmission. 8 Q: Oh, I'm sorry. Do you recall -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- that radio conversation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And is it consistent with your 13 recollection today of the sound that you heard that 14 evening? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: Turning now to your notes -- oh, if 17 we could enter that as the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1227, Your Honour. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1227: Transcript of Larry Parks - 22 Lima 1 at 23:46 hrs, 23 September 05, 1995, Region 24 02, Chatham Communications 25 Centre, Tape number 0143,
2661 Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Turning now to September 6th at 7:15 5 a.m. you have noted -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- for the record Exhibit P-1222, 8 that's at page 71: 9 "Proceed to Detachment briefing/ 10 debriefing." 11 Do you have any recollection, independent 12 recollection, of that briefing and debriefing? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And then what did you do next? 15 A: Following the briefing we were 16 assigned to go back to the TOC site. We had instructions 17 to remove the roadblocks and picnic tables that were on - 18 - at the end of the road at Matheson Drive -- no, not 19 Mathe -- Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 20 So we went back to the TOC and, you know, 21 waited until we had sufficient -- everybody there to do 22 the assignment. 23 Q: All right. And what did you observe 24 there? 25 A: We -- we gathered everybody together
2671 and at 8:40 we went to the end of Army Camp Road at the, 2 you know, East of Forest Road. 3 Q: How many officers were -- attended 4 that morning? 5 A: I -- I can't recall that, no. 6 Q: More then -- more than one (1) it 7 sounds like. 8 A: Oh yeah, there was a dozen or so. 9 Q: At least, okay. And what happened 10 next? 11 A: We went to the end of the Army Camp 12 Road. There were many picnic tables blocking the road 13 allowance to the beach. There was makeshift shelter 14 cover on one of the tables. 15 There was two (2) male parties at the 16 blockade; one was Dudley George. He was sitting at one 17 of the picnic tables and another male Native was wearing 18 an MNR brown coat, was beside Dudley. 19 Q: Did you recognize that other person? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Okay. Please continue. 22 A: As I approached, Dudley and the other 23 male ran very quickly into Ipperwash Provincial Park. My 24 assignment -- I was carrying a crowd control shield that 25 day at that time.
2681 Q: Were the other officers also carrying 2 crowd control shields? 3 A: No there was -- it was a mixture of 4 some people carrying and some of the people not. 5 Q: Would you have been wearing a helmet 6 at that point? 7 A: No, I don't think so. 8 Q: And why were you carrying the crowd 9 control shield? 10 A: I think deal -- deal -- dealt with 11 the rocks being thrown from the night before. 12 Q: Okay. And please continue. 13 A: The male in the MNR coat left the 14 area. Dudley stood approximately a hundred and fifty 15 (150) meters inside the Park. The tables were removed by 16 police and MNR and then we left. 17 Q: Okay. And did you have any 18 conversations with Mr. George or the other person? 19 A: No. They were too far away. 20 Q: Okay. And so what happened next? 21 A: I went off duty at 10:00 a.m. I 22 left. 23 Q: Okay. And you came back on duty, 24 it's noted here, at -- is that 18:30 hours? 25 A: At 18:00 I proceeded to Forest for a
2691 briefing at 18:30. 2 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar has just passed 3 me a note noting that we should reserve an exhibit number 4 for the map that we referred to with the checkpoint 5 locations on September 5th, the evening of September 6 5th/6th, 1995. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1228, Your Honour. 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. And a 9 hard copy will be provided to the Registrar. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1228: RESERVED. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 14 Q: Okay. All right. And so on the 15 evening of September 6th, what happened? 16 A: My assignment was Checkpoint 'D'. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Where was that located? 18 A: We were at the -- just south of the 19 front gate at the -- or front entrance to the Army Camp. 20 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar also has a map 21 of checkpoint locations for the evening of September 22 6th/7th which he's bringing up right now. 23 If you want to take a moment. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2701 Q: Okay, he's just going to bring up 2 another map for you that'll be a little bit more 3 specific. 4 Mr. Millar is, for the record, bringing up 5 the electronic copy of an aerial surveillance photo, or 6 not an aerial surveillance, but an aerial photo of the 7 area which has previously been identified in these 8 proceedings as Exhibit P-437B, that's the electronic 9 copy. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 15 Q: I'll just give you a moment to 16 familiarise yourself with that. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: So at 6:30 p.m. you were assigned to 21 Checkpoint 'D'. There's two (2) locations noted there. 22 Are those -- first of all, which if -- if any of those 23 locations is consistent with your recollection of where 24 Checkpoint 'D' was at -- at -- when you were first 25 deployed there?
2711 A: I believe we were more down here as 2 opposed to the Checkpoint 'D' one. We were -- we were 3 down a bit from the main gate. This is -- 4 Q: A bit further from the main gate than 5 that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Yeah, so just -- just down at about 9 here. 10 Q: Right. Were you opposite anything 11 that would identify your location on the road? 12 A: There was the storage area for 13 vehicles and parking area just down past the garages, 14 that's where we were. 15 Q: All right. And were you at the north 16 end of that area or the -- someone will correct me if I'm 17 using the wrong direction, orientation. Were you at the 18 lakeside of that area or at the Highway 21 side? 19 A: The lakeside, we were down past the-- 20 Q: Thank you. 21 A: -- past the main part of the 22 buildings. 23 Q: Fine. Okay. Of the -- of the -- the 24 storage buildings? 25 A: Yes.
2721 Q: Okay. Okay. And your notes indicate 2 that you arrived at that location at 19:30 hours; is that 3 correct? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall who was with you 6 at that point? 7 A: Constable Dellemonache was my partner 8 again for the night. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: There was several other people at the 11 checkpoint. 12 Q: Several? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you remember how many? 15 A: I believe there was seven (7) others 16 besides myself. 17 Q: And can you recall who they were? 18 A: Other than Constable Dellemonache and 19 I, I remember Sergeant Slack was in charge of that 20 checkpoint. He was there, and the rest of the others 21 I've -- don't recall right now. 22 Q: All right. And which uniform were 23 you wearing that evening? 24 A: The Grey uniform. 25 Q: Okay. And had you added any -- did
2731 you have any special equipment, either on September 5th 2 or September 6th, that you brought out with you when you 3 were deployed? 4 What equipment were you carrying with you? 5 A: I think just the standard guns. I 6 don't -- I don't think we had our long guns out at the 7 time. 8 Q: Okay. Okay. And what happened next? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Basically, I haven't got a lot of 13 notes from that night. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: I remember one time they were trying 16 to get some of us to move in to join the Crowd Management 17 Unit. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: Sergeant Slack advised that we were - 20 - things were busy, there was some -- a fire had been 21 started in the built-up area beside us and at the time 22 there was a gravel truck with -- or lights pointing at 23 our checkpoint when it turned -- after it turned dark. 24 Q: Okay. The -- was that the practice 25 that's been referred to here as jacklighting or...?
2741 A: I don't -- I don't -- I'm not 2 familiar with that term; that's more of a deer hunting 3 term. 4 Q: Okay. At any point did the 5 checkpoint move? 6 A: Not directly, no. Not until after -- 7 Q: After the incident? 8 A: -- after the incident. 9 Q: Okay. And we'll come to that. So 10 can you just describe for us and... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Mr. Millar has assisted me by 15 indicating that in addition to Constable Dellemonache, 16 Constables Dougan, Grandsden -- first of all, do you 17 remember them being -- being -- Dougan and Grandsden 18 being at the checkpoint? 19 A: Not to recall. They very well could 20 have been, there was other officers there, I just don't 21 remember their names. 22 Q: Okay. I'll just list them off for 23 you and if that assists in refreshing your memory please 24 advise of any officer that you particularly recall being 25 there: Ronald Bell, Grigg, Constable Hall, Constable
2751 Horzempa, we've already indicated, I believe, Constable 2 Lorch was there, or had you indicated? 3 A: I hadn't indicated that, no. 4 Q: No? And Constable Wells. 5 A: I -- I'm at a blank at who all was 6 there. 7 Q: All right. Okay. And what else did 8 you observe from that checkpoint location, prior to 9 hearing any activity from -- from the area of the Park? 10 A: Well just there was a lot of activity 11 on the road inside the Camp, going down towards the Park. 12 Q: Was that vehicle -- vehicles? 13 A: Vehicle patrol, yes -- or vehicles 14 going back and forth. 15 Q: And they were moving in both 16 directions? 17 A: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Sorry about that. And you mentioned 22 that there was a fire -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- lit? And where was that located, 25 precisely?
2761 A: That was right, almost beside where 2 we were, where the checkpoint was. 3 Q: Perhaps if Mr. Millar could bring up 4 the map. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: That's a copy of a map entered as 9 Exhibit P-41 in these proceedings. If you could identify 10 -- it's a map of the built-up area. 11 Okay. And if you could identify where 12 that fire was situated, to the best of your recollection. 13 A: It was in about this area; there's an 14 open area here. Don't know if that adequately describes 15 it but there was a built-up area there. Yeah, there was 16 -- there was a road to the -- it was parallel to Army 17 Camp Road, so it was in this area here. 18 Q: Okay. And perhaps if we could 19 enlarge it a little bit we could identify the buildings. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Okay. Does that assist at all, as 24 well? 25 A: It's basically in here, in this area.
2771 These buildings are a piece away from the roadway and 2 there's an open area in here. 3 Q: And for the -- for the record could 4 you describe the buildings you're referring to on that 5 Exhibit P-40 -- 6 A: Well this -- 7 Q: -- what the function of those 8 buildings is? 9 A: They're just 'H' huts and there's a 10 big storage area in one (1) of these buildings, a big, I 11 don't know, gymnasium or a drill hall of some sort. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And this is an open area along the 14 highway or Army Camp Road. 15 Q: And for the record, those buildings 16 are located at the northernmost tip of the built-up area 17 at the Army Camp, right? 18 And you also -- you observed vehicle 19 traffic, did you observe trucks or any other types of 20 vehicles? 21 A: Yeah, there was a dump truck that was 22 driving around that night. 23 Q: Okay. What was it doing? 24 A: I think that was one (1) of the 25 vehicles that was shining lights on us. When it turned
2781 dark they would face towards our checkpoint. 2 Q: Okay. And were there any people in 3 it? 4 A: I don't recall, no. Obviously one 5 (1), somebody was driving it. 6 Q: All right. And if I could take you 7 to Tab 29, those are the scribe -- scribe notes from 8 September 6th. They've been entered in these proceedings 9 as Exhibit P-426. At page 14, 23:23 hours indicates -- 10 do you have it there? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Page 14, you're saying? 15 Q: Hmm hmm. Oh, I don't think that's 16 the correct page number. It's 23:23 hours, that is page 17 47. I apologize. Do you have it there? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Okay. You'll see -- there's an entry 20 there that indicates: 21 "Constable Parks reports to Lima 2 that 22 a dump truck had Natives in rear. Was 23 seen going to a fire on Matheson 24 Drive." 25 Now, do you recall making that or having
2791 that conversation with Lima 2? 2 A: That's the day before. 3 Q: Oh, I'm sorry. And that was the 4 pallet fire that you referred to earlier? 5 A: Yeah. That's what it appears to be. 6 Q: Okay. Thank you for identifying that 7 and correcting me. 8 Okay, so, you also observed the same -- 9 was it the same dump truck that you had observed the 10 night before? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: All right. Okay. And at that point 13 were all ERT members on the same radio wave? 14 A: Yes, I believe so. 15 Q: Okay. And you could hear, therefore, 16 all the transmissions that were going on? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And could you hear any radio 19 transmissions or activities indicating what was going on 20 in the TOC area that evening, whether there was any -- or 21 the Park area? 22 A: I don't recall what you're trying to 23 get at. 24 Q: Okay. At any point -- just one 25 moment please. And I'm referring to the TOC at the MNR
2801 parking lot, just for clarity's sake. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Did you hear any activity 4 relating -- over the radio, relating to the mustering or 5 deployment of your team members in the CMU, or Crowd 6 Management Unit? 7 A: Yes. There was -- there was a 8 request on the radio for us to join that group. 9 Q: Okay. Do you recall what time that 10 request came in? 11 A: No, I do not. 12 Q: Okay. And what happened as a result 13 of that request? 14 A: Sergeant Slack was in charge of our 15 unit at the time -- or our checkpoint advised the Command 16 Post that we were unable to -- he was unable to release 17 any members. And we stayed at the checkpoint. 18 Q: And you had indicated earlier that 19 you understood that decision on his part to be as a 20 result of the activity you could observe immediately 21 opposite your checkpoint? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what were you watching for when 24 you were there? What did you understand the point of 25 your continued presence to be at that checkpoint?
2811 A: Well, it was always -- it was a check 2 -- a control point, so I guess if -- try and stop other 3 people from joining into the protest, if need be. 4 Q: And what did you hear -- or what 5 happened next? 6 A: Well we -- we could hear that -- you 7 know, we could hear what was going on on the radio. We 8 didn't make any notes about the radio but we -- one time 9 we heard that the Crowd Management Unit was en route to 10 the sandy parking lot. 11 Q: Okay. And what did you hear next? 12 A: At some point we heard shooting. And 13 I can't remember if it was -- we heard it over the radio 14 or heard it audibly just through the atmosphere. 15 Q: How many -- how many rounds can you 16 recall? 17 A: I have no idea. 18 Q: And did you get any information at 19 that point as to what was happening, associated with the 20 gunfire you heard? 21 A: Just other than that we knew that 22 there was something going on down there. Just whatever 23 the radio says, we heard transmissions on. 24 Q: Did you form any belief at that point 25 as to what was happening?
2821 A: No. We knew there had been a 2 confrontation and shots had been fired, and that's what I 3 knew. 4 Q: Okay. And also, just -- just to 5 cover off, the notes that you provided to us that appear 6 at Exhibit P-1222, for the evening of September 6th in 7 particular, I'm interested in, when did you make these 8 notes? 9 They are, as you've noted, relatively 10 sparse -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- for that evening, but can you tell 13 us when you made them? 14 A: I believe I made those just before I 15 went off duty -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- at 14:00 on the 7th of September. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. So you have noted, 19 at page 72 of your notes in Exhibit P-1222, that shooting 20 started at Park area, you've described that. 21 And what did you do next? 22 A: We moved the checkpoint we were at to 23 21 Highway. We moved from the -- where we were, we moved 24 -- moved out to 21 Highway and we moved, I would say west 25 of Army Camp Road.
2831 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar is going to 2 provide you with another map so that you can identify 3 your new location. And if you could pinpoint on that map 4 where you moved to, that would be helpful? 5 A: It was in about here. 6 Q: Okay. And for the record, you're 7 indicating a point -- approximately how many metres would 8 you estimate you were -- or if you're better with yards 9 you can do that -- 10 A: I would -- I would -- 11 Q: -- west? 12 A: -- suspect it was likely about a 13 hundred (100) metres west of Army Camp Road. 14 Q: Thank you. What side of the road 15 were you on? 16 A: We were on the south side -- or, no, 17 north. If you take this as east and west, it would be on 18 this side of the road. 19 Q: Okay. So the far side of Highway 20 21 -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- but on the -- 23 A: South side -- 24 Q: -- other side from the lake? 25 A: Yeah.
2841 Q: Okay. And did everyone from that 2 checkpoint move? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did they? Okay. And did you do that 5 -- at whose behest did you do that? 6 A: Sergeant Slack was in charge, so I 7 followed his instructions. 8 Q: Did you have any understanding as to 9 why that checkpoint was moving? 10 A: I -- we all considered it to be 11 unsafe -- or I considered it would be unsafe to -- to 12 stay where we were. 13 Q: Okay. Okay. And what happened once 14 you got there? 15 A: Shortly after we moved -- or moved to 16 that location, a female came out of the Army Camp front 17 gate and she requested an ambulance. 18 Q: Okay. How far were you -- you from 19 her? Could you hear her speaking? 20 A: I could hear her speaking. It 21 wasn't, you know, obviously there was no traffic, so it 22 wasn't very far away. 23 Q: How far from her were you when she 24 came out -- 25 A: When she came out, I would likely be
2851 another fifty (50) metres away. 2 Q: So she was between you and the Army 3 Camp, fifty -- fifty (50) metres towards Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And did you recognize the 6 woman? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: And what did she way? 9 A: She -- she requested an ambulance. I 10 didn't have any -- someone else had a conversation with 11 here, I was just basically standing by, I was in the 12 ditch. 13 Q: Okay. And what were you doing in the 14 ditch? 15 A: Just trying to protect everybody, 16 make sure there's nothing else happening. 17 Q: All right. Okay. And what happened 18 next? 19 A: She went back into the Army Camp, she 20 was instructed that some -- the ambulance would be 21 waiting here for her -- or we'd bring the ambulance to 22 the checkpoint we were at then. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Two -- two (2) females came out of 25 the Camp with an injured party. Again, I didn't have any
2861 active part in what happened, I was basically standing 2 by, covering officers. 3 Q: Do you know -- do you have any 4 knowledge of why -- so it was another officer that told 5 her that -- that she should bring the injured party out? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that an ambulance would attend at 8 the checkpoint? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you have any understanding, at 11 the time, as to why an ambulance would not go -- would 12 not be sent in where she was requesting? 13 A: I think it was just a safety issue. 14 We didn't know -- at that time we didn't know what had 15 happened. 16 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 17 A: The ambulance attended and did take 18 away the injured party. 19 Q: All right. And do you know -- did 20 you hear any of the -- any further conversations between 21 officers and the two (2) -- two (2) women? 22 A: I heard some of the conversation. I 23 can't say if I heard everything, but I heard some of the 24 conversations. 25 Q: What were the nature of those
2871 conversations? 2 A: Just, you know, instructions. They - 3 - the officers cleared the car to make sure there was 4 nobody armed in the vehicle before the ambulance attended 5 and there was some instruction just to move here, move 6 there, sort of thing. 7 Q: And do you recall the women being 8 told to lie on the road? 9 A: I don't recall that, no. 10 Q: Okay. And do you recall either of 11 the women expressing any dismay or concern or saying 12 anything back to the officers? 13 A: I don't recall that, no. 14 Q: Okay. How long -- first of all, do 15 you know who -- who made -- made the call to the 16 ambulance? 17 A: No, I would -- I would assume it's -- 18 Q: You didn't play any role in that? 19 A: I would assume it's on the radio 20 tapes. 21 Q: Okay. And did you see the injured 22 person at all? 23 A: Just from -- off from afar. I wasn't 24 close enough to have a look at it. 25 Q: Okay. And what did you observe?
2881 A: Just a party was put into an 2 ambulance, that's all. 3 Q: Okay. And did you hear any 4 conversations with the injured person? 5 A: No, I did not. 6 Q: Okay. Before we move on, do you know 7 if you, at any point, recall hearing anything about women 8 and children leaving the Park area, prior to -- earlier 9 in the evening -- leaving the Army Camp, sorry? 10 A: I -- I can't recall now. The problem 11 I have with, you know, listening to the Inquiry in -- the 12 years have past, I'm not sure exactly when I heard some 13 stuff. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. And so what happened 15 next? 16 A: After the ambulance -- ambulance left 17 there was a radio transmission to change the checkpoint 18 system, and Constable Dellemonache and I were assigned to 19 Checkpoint 11, which was the Army Camp Road at Ravenswood 20 Line. 21 Q: And Mr. Millar is shifting the map so 22 that you can assist us in understanding where you were 23 stationed. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2891 A: That's the checkpoint we're at there. 2 Q: Right. It's that yellow dot that 3 appears there, indicating Checkpoint -- if you could 4 shift over a little bit, Mr. Millar, I could see the rest 5 of the -- thank you, Checkpoint F, it's -- it's marked 6 there. 7 Is that yellow dot the correct -- or were 8 you right at the intersection? 9 A: We were actually just down from 10 Ravenswood Line, right about there. 11 Q: So you were north of Ravenswood Line? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: How many -- how far from Ravenswood 14 Line? 15 A: Oh, just a short distance, fifty (50) 16 metres or something like that. 17 Q: Okay. Did you receive any 18 instructions as to what you were to be doing at that 19 checkpoint? 20 A: I can't recall, no, I'd have to check 21 the radio logs for the actual transmission, and I made no 22 notes on it. 23 Q: Okay. And what did you -- what did 24 you do? What was your purpose at that checkpoint? 25 Were you stopping cars --
2901 A: Yeah, we -- 2 Q: -- or just checking cars? 3 A: There wasn't a lot of traffic at the 4 time, I remember some vehicles coming out. And I can't 5 remember exactly what my instructions were at the time. 6 Q: Okay. And do you recall, at any 7 point, encountering Chief Bressette and Gerald George at 8 this checkpoint? Do you know Gerald George, first of 9 all? Otherwise -- 10 A: The name's familiar, but I'm not to 11 certain about the face. 12 Q: All right. Would you know Chief 13 Bressette -- 14 A: Yes, I knew him. 15 Q: -- Chief Tom Bressette to see him? 16 A: Yes. I remember Chief Tom coming 17 through at one (1) time. 18 Q: Okay. Do you remember when he came 19 through? 20 A: Sometime between when I got there and 21 when I left. 22 Q: And did you have any conversation 23 with him? 24 A: Very briefly. 25 Q: What was the nature of that
2911 conversation? 2 A: Just said that, you know, something 3 serious had happened, because I didn't know what had 4 happened so I was only able to say that, you know, 5 something serious has happened, and that was it. 6 Q: All right. And did he say what had 7 happened, anything beyond characterizing it as serious? 8 A: I don't think he had much 9 conversations at all. It was just -- he went through. 10 Q: All right. And were you checking ID, 11 or do you recall -- 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: -- any other cars going through, 14 other than that car? 15 A: There was a few cars that went 16 through, but I can't remember if we were actually taking 17 names anymore or not. 18 Q: And were you actually on the road or 19 were you providing cover? 20 A: I was on the road. 21 Q: And when you were -- when you stopped 22 the car and had the conversation with Chief Bressette, 23 did you have guns out? 24 A: I believe, if my memory serves me 25 correctly, Constable Dellemonache had a long gun out and
2921 he was doing the covering from the ditch, and I didn't 2 have any firearms out. 3 Q: Okay. So Constable Dellemonache was 4 in -- in the ditch? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And did he have his fire 7 arm pointed at the car? 8 A: I -- I can't recall. I -- I guess 9 I'm making an assumption here, I -- I believe he had his 10 gun out and it would certainly -- it would be standard 11 practice to point towards the car. 12 Q: But, at any rate, you were having a 13 conversation and not providing weapon cover at that 14 point? 15 A: Yes. And Constable he -- Constable 16 Dellemonache would be, you know, back, so I can't exactly 17 say what he was doing. 18 Q: So you couldn't see how far he was 19 down the ditch or whether he came out of the ditch at any 20 point? 21 A: No, I can't remember. 22 Q: Okay. And in terms of any of the 23 other vehicles, was there anything of note in terms of 24 the vehicles that passed through? 25 A: Not that I recall.
2931 Q: Did you turn anyone back and prevent 2 them from proceeding? 3 A: I don't even recall that now. 4 Q: Okay. And what did you understand 5 the primary objective -- what were -- what were you doing 6 out there? Were you -- were you preventing the passage 7 of traffic or what was the main goal of the checkpoint? 8 A: I can't -- I can't recall exactly 9 what the instructions were. Sometimes -- sometimes the 10 instructions changed and I would be going with what the 11 radio transmission told me at the time. 12 Q: Okay. Okay. And at what point did 13 you learn about what had transpired just outside 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 15 A: Channel 10 News came by and the 16 videographer wanted to photograph Constable Dellemonache 17 and I. And we were hungry for information and he 18 actually provided us with a press release of what he had 19 been released, and that was the first time I had 20 understood what had happened. 21 Q: Okay. And did it -- if you can 22 recall, did it come as a surprise to you what had 23 happened the night before? 24 A: Yes, it did. 25 Q: And did it have any impact as to your
2941 conduct at the checkpoint from that point forward? 2 A: No, it -- it didn't affect our 3 conduct but it did affect our mental capacity, I guess 4 you'd say, we were quite disturbed that we hadn't been 5 informed. 6 Q: You were disturbed that you hadn't 7 been informed? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. Why were you disturbed? 10 A: Well there could have been reprisals, 11 or there's lots of things that may have happened that we 12 may -- should have known what had happened down there. 13 Q: Okay. And so do you recall what time 14 you spoke to the news crew? 15 A: No. It -- it was still dark yet, so 16 it was likely before 6:00 a.m. 17 Q: Okay. And what was the next event of 18 any significance that happened? 19 A: Around 10:00 a.m. we were relieved 20 from the checkpoint by uniform members. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: And I have in my notes we went to 23 Checkpoint 1, just as the protest was moving up 21 24 Highway. 25
2951 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if you could identify on the map 4 for us where that checkpoint was located? 5 A: I can't read the Checkpoint 3 there. 6 Is that Ipperwash Road? 7 Q: That's Ipperwash Road, yes. 8 A: Yeah. I have in my notes that was -- 9 to me at that time of the night it was -- or day, it was 10 Checkpoint 1, and we had went there. 11 Q: Okay. And what happened there, once 12 you got there? 13 A: As we got there there was a large 14 group of First Nation people coming up 21 Highway. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Just for the record, what Const -- or 20 Sergeant Parks had indicated as Checkpoint 1 is 21 identified on the map, Exhibit P-437B, as Checkpoint D3. 22 Sorry to interrupt. 23 A: That is correct. Anyhow, when we got 24 there the -- it wasn't very long after we got there the 25 protest came through. We had instructions to go out and
2961 talk to the people and ask them not to go up 21 Highway. 2 I went out and said, We're asking you not 3 to go through, but they went through. We didn't -- we 4 had no instructions to stop them. We asked them not to 5 go through, and that was it. 6 Q: All right. And did you -- were you 7 standing on the road -- 8 A: Yes, I -- 9 Q: -- when you had that conversation? 10 A: Yes, I was on the road. 11 Q: All right. And were you actually 12 between the people who were marching and their 13 destination -- 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: -- their apparent destination? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And what did you do in 18 response to their refusal? 19 A: After a -- a few people went through 20 and obviously they weren't going to stop, we moved to the 21 side of the road and let them through. 22 Q: Okay. All right. And you did that; 23 can you recall whose instruction you were acting on at 24 that point? 25 A: That came through the radio
2971 communications. 2 Q: Okay. Okay. And so approximately 3 how many officers were there with you at that checkpoint, 4 if you can recall? 5 A: There might have been a dozen by that 6 time, when -- when they came through. 7 Q: Okay. And you mentioned you were 8 outnumbered by the -- by the people marching? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. If you can estimate, how many 11 people were on the road? 12 A: How many First Nation people were 13 there? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Maybe a hundred (100). 16 Q: Okay. And you said you moved to the 17 side of the road; what happened next? 18 A: I went back to the Command Post for a 19 debriefing. 20 Q: That's the -- in Forest? 21 A: Yes. And I remember one time they 22 sent us to the TOC site. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: But before we got there we were 25 cancelled, we were returned back to the Command Post.
2981 Q: Were you provided with any 2 information as to why you were turned back? 3 A: I think the Command Post -- or the 4 TOC site had already been taken over, everybody had left. 5 Q: Okay. And did you -- what did you do 6 next? 7 A: I went off duty at 2:00 p.m. in the 8 afternoon. 9 Q: All right. And did you have any 10 further involvement with the situation at Ipperwash 11 Provincial Park, or Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: Not during the next month. 13 Q: Not during the next month. And did 14 you play any role in the investigations that followed? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And just for completeness 17 sake, if I could turn you back to Tab 28, it's Exhibit P- 18 1222. The third page begins a three (3) page handwritten 19 statement. Do you recall when you made that -- first of 20 all, can you identify, is that your handwriting? 21 A: Yes, that's my handwriting. 22 Q: Do you recall making that statement? 23 A: Yes, I do recall making it. 24 Q: When was that? 25 A: I don't remember.
2991 Q: Okay. And do you recall the 2 circumstances of making that statement? 3 A: I can't remember what -- why it was 4 asked for, but I submitted it. 5 Q: Okay. And one (1) other housekeeping 6 matter, just -- My Friend's counsel has provided me with 7 a -- a fully -- or appropriately redacted version of 8 Sergeant Parks notes from August 31st through to October 9 1995, as part of Exhibit P-1222. I will be providing 10 those to the Registrar, rather than the version that 11 appears in the database. 12 And just one (1) moment, please. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right. I want to thank you, 17 Sergeant Parks. Those are all my questions. I believe 18 My Friends will have some questions for you. 19 If we could just perhaps canvass the 20 parties. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 22 Jackson...? 23 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ms. Tuck-Jackson 24 was fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms.
3001 McAleer...? 2 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Five (5) minutes. 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ms. McAleer was 4 five (5) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. -- 6 MS. MELISSA PANJER: Ten (10) minutes. 7 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And that was for 8 Ms. Hutton? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ten (10) minutes? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 12 Ms. Hutton. 13 Mr. Alexander...? 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Maximum fifteen 15 (15) minutes. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Fifteen (15) 17 minutes for Mr. Alexander. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 19 Esmonde...? 20 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: An hour. 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: One (1) hour for 22 Ms. Esmonde. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Neil...? 24 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Forty-five (45), 25 please.
3011 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 2 hear that. 3 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Forty-five (45). 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: That was forty- 5 five (45) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 7 George...? 8 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Ten (10) minutes. 9 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ten (10) minutes 10 for Mr. George. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 12 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thirty (30) to forty- 13 five (45) minutes depending on what -- 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thirty (30) to 15 forty-five (45) minutes for Mr. Roy. 16 And that is... 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we 18 finish this afternoon? 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I don't think so. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it -- 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Perhaps late this 22 evening. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Three and a half (3 24 1/2) hours. 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: That's three and a
3021 half (3 1/2) -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Three (3) to three and 3 a half (3). 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- three (3) to 5 three and a half (3-1/2) hours, so. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 7 get started and see how far we can go. 8 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 13 we move to the next phase, the -- I would ask that we add 14 the -- to the Exhibit P-1200 and mark it P-1200A, the 15 notes for the gatehouse log; it's four (4) pages. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1200A: Handwritten notes of 18 Gatehouse Log, September 05 19 and 06, 1995. 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you okay 22 to -- 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- continue? 25 All right.
3031 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, let's start. 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: A moment's 3 indulgence, Mr. Commissioner, I just want to confer with 4 your Counsel momentarily. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you for 9 the indulgence -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- Mr. 12 Commissioner, and good afternoon. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. TUCK-JACKSON: 15 Q: And good afternoon, Sergeant Parks. 16 As you probably know my name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm 17 going to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 18 And if I may, sir, I'm particularly 19 interested in your two (2) attendances at the sandy 20 parking lot on the evening of the 6th -- excuse me, the 21 evening of the 5th and the morning of the 6th, when your 22 actions and the actions of your fellow officers had the 23 effect of moving a number of -- of occupiers who were in 24 that sandy packing -- parking lot, back into the Park. 25 So if it assists you, could you turn up
3041 your notes referable to, first of all, the late evening 2 of September the 5th? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And you'll recall that you were asked 5 to attend at the sandy parking lot in order to assist a 6 number of other officers who were already there. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And you indicated to us 9 that there were a number of picnic tables in the sandy 10 parking lot, and is it fair to say that their presence 11 had the effect of blocking that access way through the 12 sandy parking lot? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And can you explain to us 15 why, in your view, there was a need to remove the sandy 16 parking -- excuse me the picnic tables from the sandy 17 parking lot? 18 A: I can't. 19 Q: Okay. All right. So in -- in 20 essence you were simply following direction? You knew 21 that there was a direction coming down from somewhere 22 that they were to be removed? 23 A: No, the -- on the first time I went 24 there? 25 Q: The night of the 5th.
3051 A: Yeah. We were responding to a 2 request for assistance by other constables that were 3 there. 4 Q: All right. So you don't know the 5 reason, you just knew that there was a reason why the 6 picnic tables were to be removed from the parking lot? 7 A: Yes, we were just following what the 8 first officers at the scene were doing? 9 Q: I understand. All right. That's 10 fair. What I found of interest is, you indicated that 11 the presence of the police seemed to push the occupiers 12 back into the Park? You said that to us earlier. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And so from your 15 observation, once this group of officers, around the 16 number of about ten (10) or twelve (12) you said, 17 depending upon the number of cars that responded? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: From your observation, the effect of 20 the presence of those officers was to cause the First 21 Nations occupiers to move back into the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And up until the point 24 before where -- where rocks are actually thrown at you, 25 you were able to achieve that end without any physical
3061 confrontation with the occupiers? 2 A: That's -- that's my belief, yes. 3 Q: Right. Okay. You've told us that on 4 the morning of September the 6th when you came off duty, 5 you weren't allowed to go off duty right away. You had 6 to hang around in effect to engage in a further detail 7 where once again you had to remove what we've been told 8 were approximately twenty-one (21) picnic tables from the 9 sandy parking lot? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: Okay. Now, you may have not had the 12 benefit of the knowledge of this particular scribed note 13 entry and I apologize, I haven't given notice of this but 14 it's quite straight forward and it's just come up in this 15 examination. 16 So I'm wondering if I could prevail upon 17 Mr. Millar to put Document P-426, the scribed notes up 18 and I'm interested in the entry at 07:400 -- 07:14 hours 19 which is page 48. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 48? 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Please. 22 Morning of the 6th. We'll make that bigger for you so 23 you read it, Sergeant Parks. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What time? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 7:14 in the
3071 morning. If we could just go down a wee bit. There we 2 go. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 5 Q: And you'll note, Sergeant Parks, that 6 the entry reads: 7 "Mark Wright to John Carson explained 8 map and picnic tables blocked the end 9 of Army Camp Road. Mark Wright 10 assigned to attend scene and video the 11 scene and return. 12 Keep one (1) and two (2) ERT on 13 standby." 14 Now you're coming off the night shift and 15 I gather then you are a member of the One District ERT 16 team that was held back and held on standby? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And once again as you've 19 told us, you were amongst a group of approximately twelve 20 (12) officers who attended at the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You faced as we've heard twenty-one 23 (21) picnic tables, correct? 24 A: I don't remember the exact number. I 25 didn't count them.
3081 Q: We've heard from George Speck that he 2 had the dubious chore of counting those picnic tables. 3 We've heard they're twenty-one (21) in number. 4 And you've also told us that there were 5 two (2) First Nations occupiers in the sandy parking lot 6 one (1) of whom was Dudley George. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And again, did you 9 understand the need for moving the picnic tables out of 10 the parking lot? 11 A: That wasn't a concern of mine. 12 Q: I understand. All right. You just 13 understood that's what you were suppose to do, you just 14 didn't know why? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Fair enough. And again, from your 17 observation, when those two (2) individuals were 18 confronted by approximately a dozen officers, some of 19 whom were carrying shields, they immediately fled back 20 into the Park? 21 A: That is correct. 22 Q: All right. And you again, you and 23 your fellow officers were able to meet that goal without 24 any physical confrontation with those two (2) 25 individuals?
3091 A: That is correct. 2 Q: And I trust you'd agree with me that 3 while you were down there, they did not come back out 4 pass the fence line again? 5 A: No, they did not. 6 Q: No. One more area if I may. You've 7 told us about a number of observations that you made on 8 the night of the 6th when you were on duty at Checkpoint 9 Delta. 10 And for example you told us about a fire 11 that was lit on the inside of the fence line. In other 12 words, on the Base property but very proximate to your 13 location at the checkpoint. Correct? 14 A: That is correct. 15 Q: All right. And you've also told us 16 about some observations about vehicular traffic going 17 back and forth again on that interior road between the 18 Base and the Park. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. We have heard both by way of 21 viva voce evidence and also audio recordings that around 22 20:41 Mark Dew called into the Command Post to report 23 that he had learned from ERT officers at that checkpoint, 24 that women and children were going to be departing from 25 the Base.
3101 Do you know anything about that? 2 A: No. I've heard it but I -- I don't - 3 - I didn't have any direct involvement with that. 4 Q: All right. You have no recall of 5 that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Very well. Then I'm not going to 8 bother you about that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And, sir, thank you. Those are my 13 questions. 14 A: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Ms. Jackson. 17 Ms. McAleer...? 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 20 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Parks. 21 A: Good afternoon. 22 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 23 one of the lawyers acting for the former Premier, Mike 24 Harris. 25 You testified that you started policing in
3111 the area in 1975 and then soon after you started to learn 2 about claims that the local First Nation community had 3 with respect to the Army Camp property. 4 I take it that after you started policing 5 in 1975 and prior to the occupation of the Army Camp land 6 in 1993, nobody from that First Nation community had ever 7 informed you or talked to you about a claim to the 8 Provincial Park land? 9 A: I'm not aware of anything. 10 Q: Nobody ever mentioned a claim to the 11 Provincial Park land to you prior to 1993? 12 A: I'm not -- I don't recall. 13 Q: Okay. And did anybody ever mention 14 the possibility of there being a burial ground in the 15 Provincial Park prior to 1993? 16 A: I don't recall that at all. 17 Q: Now, I want to just try and get a 18 little bit more information from you about the actual 19 takeover of the Provincial Park on September 4th of 1995. 20 As I understood your evidence you had been present, you'd 21 left and then you came back. 22 When you came back and the occupiers had 23 entered the Provincial Park were there campers still in 24 the Provincial Park? 25 A: I don't recall now but I -- I think
3121 they were gone, I'm not certain. 2 Q: And you had been asked how many OPP 3 cruisers were in the Park at that point in time and you 4 indicated that you didn't recall. 5 Do you have an understanding or a 6 recollection as to how many OPP officers were in the 7 Park? 8 A: At that -- it changed because once 9 the takeover happened there was a request for more 10 officers and, you know, depending on what specific time 11 you're talking about, I don't recall exactly how many 12 ended up there. 13 Q: Okay. Well, if we take the point 14 just prior to you all leaving the Park -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- after Roderick George snatched the 17 -- the cruiser, I take it that would be the point at 18 which there were the most OPP officers in the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. During that period of time do 21 you have a memory as to how many of you there were? 22 A: I don't think there was any more than 23 a dozen of us. 24 Q: Okay. And do you know how many First 25 Nation occupiers were in the Provincial Park at that
3131 point in time? 2 A: Well, at -- at that time it was dark. 3 Just -- we left when it was dark, so I couldn't say for 4 certain how many people were in the dark. 5 Q: Okay. In the general area where you 6 were, where the incident with the cruiser took place, 7 were there more occupiers than there were police 8 officers? 9 A: Yes. I think at one (1) time during 10 -- I was only there, like, two (2) hours, and I think 11 that at one (1) time there was forty (40) or fifty (50) 12 First Nation people there. 13 Q: Okay. So it's fair to say, Officer, 14 you were outnumbered? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you had been asked if you 17 recalled specific conversations and you indicated that 18 you -- you didn't apart from notes in your -- in your 19 notebook. 20 Is it fair to say that the occupiers were 21 yelling at the police officers? 22 A: Yes. There was some yelling and what 23 not going on. 24 Q: What do you recall about that? Can 25 you give us any more detail?
3141 A: There wasn't a lot. Like, there was 2 some conversation in -- I guess, if you take the example 3 of when they left -- when the Military left the Camp, 4 there was a lot of yelling going on then. But when we 5 were there, down -- at the takeover of the Park, there 6 wasn't, like, a lot of yelling going on. There may have 7 been some at times and what not but it -- it wasn't 8 continual so to speak. 9 Q: Do you recall Roderick George yelling 10 at Sergeant Korosec? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was it fair to say it was a 13 hostile atmosphere in the Provincial Park on September 14 4th? 15 A: At -- as the time went on it got more 16 hostile. 17 Q: Okay. And I take it that the reason 18 that you and your fellow officers left was to avoid a 19 further confrontation or further violence; is that fair? 20 A: You'll have to talk to Sergeant 21 Korosec about that. He -- he was in charge and I left at 22 his instruction. 23 Q: But isn't it fair to say, Officer, 24 that based on the fact that people were throwing flares 25 at you and -- and others, that a police cruiser had been
3151 smashed and you were being told to leave the you in fact 2 left because there was a hostile atmosphere and there was 3 fear that there might be further confrontation or 4 violence? 5 A: I -- I'd still like to refer that to 6 the officer, the ranking officer at the scene. 7 Q: You had no opinion at the time as to 8 why you were leaving? 9 A: I didn't mind leaving, put it that 10 way but... 11 Q: Fair enough. And after Roderick 12 George broke the cruiser window did you see if any of the 13 other First Nations people said anything to him to the 14 effect that perhaps he shouldn't have done that? 15 A: I don't recall that. 16 Q: And with respect to people throwing 17 flares at you and the other officers did you see any of 18 the other First Nation people try and dissuade them from 19 doing so or take them aside and say stop that? 20 A: I didn't see any of that, no. 21 Q: Thank you, Officer. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3161 MS. MELISSA PANJER: Good afternoon. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MELISSA PANJER: 6 Q: My name's Melissa Panjer and I'm a 7 lawyer representing Deb Hutton who worked in the 8 Premier's Office under the former Premier Mike Harris. 9 You testified that Maynard T. George and 10 Carl George communicated their intention to place an 11 information booth in the Park in 1993 and we've heard 12 evidence that a temporary booth for handing out pamphlets 13 was placed in the Park. 14 Were you aware of that? 15 A: I believe so but I -- it doesn't -- 16 it's not -- I don't have a lot of memory about it let's 17 put it that way. 18 Q: Okay. Well, you have some 19 recollection? 20 A: Yes, I have some recollections and I 21 read the documents -- some refreshed my memory. 22 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask you a couple 23 of other questions about the circumstances relating to 24 that. 25 We've heard evidence that what took place
3171 in 1993 in relation to the Park was quite different from 2 what took place in September 1995. 3 Unlike 1995, in 1993 the occupiers didn't 4 -- didn't take over the whole Park and they didn't 5 provide access to it by Park officials was that your 6 understanding? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 Q: And in 1993 to your knowledge the 9 occupiers didn't cut down trees in the Park? 10 A: I have no knowledge of that, no. 11 Q: Okay. And based on your knowledge 12 the occupiers' actions in 1993 were much more limited 13 than in 1995? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And in 1993 the occupiers clearly 16 indicated to Park staff what they were going to do in 17 advance? 18 A: I guess you'd have to talk to the 19 Park people about that. 20 Q: Well, I'm -- I'm basing this on your 21 notes -- 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: -- at Tab 2 where you record the 24 meeting that had occurred and I'm not sure that you 25 attended that meeting but you have that in your notes --
3181 A: Yeah, I didn't -- 2 Q: -- which I can take you to if... 3 A: I didn't attend that meeting, the 4 meeting was between the MNR and the First Nations people 5 and subsequent to that they came back and talked to us? 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: After they had that meeting we -- we 8 met them. 9 Q: Okay. But -- and who communicated to 10 you the information that Maynard T. George and Carl 11 George had -- had said that they were going to place this 12 temporary structure in the Park? 13 A: Acting Sergeant Beacock was at the 14 scene so he was the ranking officer, I was just kind of 15 there as an observer. 16 Q: Okay. And we've also had evidence 17 that the occupiers served a document in advance of 18 placing this structure on the Park. 19 Were you aware that a document asserting 20 details of the claim to the Park were served in advance? 21 A: I'm not aware of that, no. 22 Q: Okay. In 1993 the occupiers did not 23 smash a police cruiser window or throw flares at the 24 police to your knowledge? 25 A: To my knowledge they did not.
3191 Q: And in 1993 Maynard George and others 2 removed the booth of their own accord shortly after they 3 erected it, is that your understanding of what happened? 4 A: I have -- I don't have any knowledge 5 about that. 6 Q: Okay. And finally were you made 7 aware that in 1993 the Provincial Government reviewed its 8 title and advised Maynard T. George and Chief Tom 9 Bressette that it had clear title and the claim to the 10 Park had no merit? 11 A: I don't -- I don't have any 12 information to that. 13 Q: Okay. 14 MS. MELISSA PANJER: And I apologize, I 15 didn't have sufficient time to get copies of these 16 documents but if the Witness could be given P-555 and P- 17 400. 18 The Inquiry -- I'm not sure about -- P-595 19 -- I'm sorry, 555 is Inquiry Document 2002951 and I 20 haven't got the Inquiry document number for P-400 21 unfortunately. Maybe Mr. Millar can assist me. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What are
3201 these documents? I don't know what they are. 2 MS. MELISSA PANJER: This is the 3 Operational Plans for 1993 -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The ones we 5 just -- 6 MS. MELISSA PANJER: -- for 1993. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. MELISSA PANJER: 9 Q: Have you seen either of these 10 documents 11 before? You can start with P-955.(sic) 12 A: I don't recall seeing these at all. 13 Q: Okay. And finally you testified that 14 you heard what you thought was automatic gunfire in the 15 Camp on the night of September 5th. 16 And given that there were people 17 occupying the Camp in the Park you'd agree with me that 18 gunfire at night whether automatic or not would raise 19 possible safety concerns? 20 A: Yes, it did. 21 Q: Thank you, those are my questions. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
3211 Mr. Alexander? 2 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, I 3 figured I'd quickly check in on the time and see if you 4 wanted me to proceed or ... 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I do. 6 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. Then I will 7 do that. I will not be -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- I will not be 10 long. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Parks. 14 A: Good afternoon. 15 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 16 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 17 and several members of the George family including Sam 18 George who's sitting here beside me. 19 You'll be happy to know that I don't have 20 many areas. I have only one (1) area that I want to 21 focus your mind to and that's the evening of September 22 5th and that's particularly around 11:00 -- 11:30. 23 So to start off with I'd like to take you 24 to Tab 29 which is Exhibit P-426 which is the scribe 25 notes, the typewritten scribe notes and I'd like to take
3221 you very quickly to page 47. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Do you have it, sir? 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: The time I'm looking at particularly 8 is 23:23. I don't recall this coming up in your 9 evidence-in-chief and I don't recall this coming up in 10 your notes. 11 And just to read it for the record it 12 says: 13 "Constable Parks reports to Lima 2 the 14 dump truck had natives in rear. It was 15 seen going to a fire on Matheson 16 Drive." 17 Does that refresh your memory at all about 18 that particular incident? This would have probably 19 occurred while you were at Checkpoint 'C' that time. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: No, I -- I don't -- it doesn't refresh 24 my memory at all. 25 Q: But you don't take any issue with
3231 that notation in the -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- scribe notes? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. The -- the other area that I'm 6 going to focus on is the two (2) radio transmissions that 7 have come out that are mentioned in the scribe notes. 8 But I'm going to refer to a couple of lines specifically 9 out of them, that they are the ones at Tabs 32 and 33 10 which are Exhibits P-12226 (sic) and Exhibit P- 11 12227,(sic) specifically the third line down -- actually 12 I'm sorry, the second last line you're -- you saying: 13 "We're hearing large amounts of 14 automatic gunfire way back in the Army 15 Base." 16 And then the next tab: 17 "LIMA 1: Is that shotgun, automatic, 18 or semi-automatic? 19 LARRY PARKS: It sounds fully 20 automatic. 21 LIMA 1: How many round would you 22 figure you heard? 23 LARRY PARKS: Fifty (50) to a hundred 24 (100). Anyhow, it's stopped now. 25 LIMA 1: Sounds just like one (1)
3241 firearm going off. 2 LARRY PARKS: That's 10-4." 3 And the remainder of my questions are 4 going to focus on those issues there. 5 Now, if I understand your evidence in- 6 chief, you outlined your training that you had in order 7 to determine that it was automatic gunfire, correct? 8 A: Or experience -- 9 Q: Or experience. 10 A: -- mostly training. 11 Q: And this was the only incident, this 12 was the only time you heard these sounds, correct, in 13 relation to Ipperwash? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, using your own evidence, it 16 seemed to have been heard way back in the Army Base and 17 you said a kilometre away? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So that seems to be a fairly large 20 distance in the grand scheme of things? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, have you yourself ever -- now, 23 the next three (3) or four (4) questions I'm going to be 24 referring specifically to when the occupiers took over 25 the entire -- took over, moved into the Army Base, into
3251 CFB Ipperwash, when they moved into the built-up area and 2 when they moved into the Park on September 4th, 5th and 3 6th, just so you have an idea of the context of the 4 questions I'm asking. 5 For those periods did you ever see at any 6 time an automatic weapon in the Camp or the Park? 7 A: No. Certainly not. 8 Q: Did you ever see a shell casing of a 9 fired automatic weapon in the Camp or the Park? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Have you -- have you ever seen any 12 ammunition for automatic weapons in the Camp or the Park? 13 A: No, I have not. 14 Q: Have you seen at any time physical 15 evidence whatsoever of automatic weapons in the Camp or 16 the Park? 17 A: No, I haven't. 18 Q: Have you heard anyone say that they - 19 - that they had seen physical evidence or seen an 20 automatic weapon in the Camp or in the Park? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now, the other thing I wanted to 23 bring in terms of context is all this, in terms of what 24 happened with the Park, seemed to occur around Labour Day 25 Weekend; does that sound about right in terms of the
3261 timing? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Monday, September 4th was Labour -- 4 A: Labour Day Weekend. 5 Q: And often times on long weekends a 6 lot of firecrackers get set off; is that -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- accurate? And I presume you've 9 heard the sound of firecrackers? 10 A: Yes, I have. 11 Q: Have you ever heard of firecrackers 12 being set off in the Park or in CFB Ipperwash, on the 13 lands formerly known as CFB Ipperwash? 14 A: Firecrackers? 15 Q: Firecrackers. 16 A: Not that I can identify. 17 Q: Okay. And so that would apply for 18 whether they be occupiers, First Nations people, or day 19 users, or anything in the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Just so you know, we've had 22 evidence that there were firecrackers being set off in 23 the Park and there was some -- 24 A: Well, I -- 25 Q: -- discussion of that. I'm just --
3271 I'm not asking you to change, I'm just putting that as 2 context, just so you're aware of it. 3 Now, the -- the question that I want to 4 know is, now, you've talked that you've heard 5 firecrackers? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Have you heard the kind of 8 firecrackers that go off in rapid succession and make a 9 series of popping sounds? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And are you aware that during the 12 Labour Day Weekend a number -- a significant number of 13 campers heard what they thought were gunshots but were 14 likely firecrackers as a result? 15 A: I'm not certain -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I don't think there's 17 evidence -- My Friend is now, I hope, not giving evidence 18 that the campers likely heard firecrackers when they 19 thought they heard gunshots. 20 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: There has been 21 evidence put by Mr. Zbogar -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But we never 23 heard -- 24 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- on this on 25 October 26th by Mr. Kobayashi --
3281 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We haven't 2 heard from any campers -- 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- but that's a 4 matter of argument. But there is evidence on the record. 5 So this -- there is an evidentiary foundation. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, there 7 isn't any evidence from campers yet. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there 10 evidence from campers? 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: There's evidence 12 from campers, it was Exhibit P-914. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, 14 because I didn't think we'd heard from any campers yet. 15 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Exhibit P-9 -- 914, 16 Document Number 1002055. Mr. Zbogar went through this on 17 -- with quite some length with Mr. Kobayashi to discuss 18 this. This is the SIU investigation follow-up report. 19 I'm not going to go through all of it -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- it's there. I 22 will quote one (1) part of it: 23 "I spoke with Jackie White, twenty- 24 eight (28) years of age, she stated she 25 heard gunshots, she saw a car stuck on the
3291 beach. First Nations people were very 2 rude and had been drinking. When asked 3 could these shots be firecrackers, she 4 then admitted that they might have been 5 firecrackers." 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 7 That's fine. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: So -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on 10 then, Mr. Alexander. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 13 Q: Now, would you agree with me that 14 some kinds of firecrackers could be -- could sound like 15 gunfire, especially if they're heard from a distance? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You don't agree with me on that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: So you would not agree that it's 20 possible that what you actually heard were firecrackers 21 that evening? 22 A: I wouldn't agree with that, no. 23 Q: Even though you -- even though 24 earlier in the evening you noted a dump truck, about 25 twenty (20) minutes earlier, going to a fire on Matheson
3301 Drive with Natives in the back? 2 A: That's correct, yes. 3 Q: That's your evidence, and we'll -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- leave the rest for argument. The 6 other -- my final question for you is, are you aware as 7 to whether any investigation was conducted on the -- 8 conducted on the night of September 5th or any time 9 afterwards to determine the source of those gunfire like 10 sounds that you heard? 11 A: No I'm not aware of any 12 investigation. 13 Q: Thank you, Officer Parks, those are 14 my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Alexander. 17 Ms. Esmonde, you estimated an hour; we may 18 not finish you, but could we start? We'll see how far we 19 can get. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you feel 24 tired, just let us know. 25 THE WITNESS: I'm fine.
3311 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's not a question I 2 take it you ask counsel? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 4 asking counsel. Counsel will have to grin and bear it. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 7 Q: Good afternoon. 8 A: Good afternoon. 9 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde. I'll be 10 asking you some questions on behalf of the Aazhoodena and 11 George Family Group. 12 Now earlier this afternoon you read us 13 from your notes regarding an incident on Matheson Drive 14 that occurred on September 4th in the afternoon. I 15 believe around 4:00 p.m. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it you're an experienced 18 note taker? 19 A: Yes, I am. 20 Q: And you would have included all the 21 details that you thought were most significant in your 22 notes when you prepared them? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if for example, you had seen any 25 firearms while you were there, you would have noted that
3321 in your notes? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if you had heard any statements 4 on the part of the First Nations people who were there 5 that there were guns or crossbows aimed at the officers, 6 you would have noted that. 7 A: If I would have seen it, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. And you would have remembered 9 that I'm sure. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you have no memory of any such 12 incident occurring? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Now you've also described a 15 conversation you had with Mr. Glenn George on the evening 16 of September 4th. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Involving where he said something to 19 you that there was a warrant for your arrest or the 20 Elders were going to get a warrant for your arrest? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I believe Ms. Hensel had asked 23 you if -- if Mr. Speck was close by. Sorry, Detective 24 Sergeant Speck was close by when you heard those words 25 spoken and -- and you didn't recall that he was?
3331 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. He described to us earlier 3 this week a very similar incident. Did you have the 4 opportunity to hear that evidence or read that evidence? 5 A: No. I -- I'm aware of it though. 6 Q: You are aware of it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. So in your mind those are two 9 (2) separate incidents? 10 A: Yes, they are. 11 Q: Now Detective Constable Speck, you 12 knew him as an officer who had a great deal of experience 13 in the area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: As did you? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And he knew the people in the Park 18 fairly well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Would you say that he knew them 21 better than you did? He had more contact with (sic) you 22 over the years with the Stoney Pointers? 23 A: I would say yes he did. He had -- 24 George had more experience. 25 Q: Now he was not particularly concerned
3341 by hearing very similar comments from Glenn George 2 directed towards him. He didn't -- he didn't take that 3 as a serious threat from what he's told us. 4 I take it -- did you view that seriously 5 when Glenn George made that comment to you? 6 A: Not on the night of the 4th I didn't 7 think it was real serious. 8 Q: Right. At the time you thought it 9 was joke or -- 10 A: It was talk. 11 Q: -- if was just talk, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now you also told us that apart from 14 that discussion that you had with Mr. Glenn George, you 15 had other communications with people in the Park but you 16 can't recall the specifics of those discussions? 17 A: During the takeover? 18 Q: Pardon me? 19 A: During -- 20 Q: During -- during the reclaiming of 21 the Park. 22 A: Yeah, no. 23 Q: Generally though, do you recall a 24 message being given to the people who were coming into 25 the Park from OPP officers that they were trespassing?
3351 Is that -- is that confusing? 2 A: Yes, that is confusing. 3 Q: I didn't phrase that very well. But 4 -- shall I repeat it? 5 A: Yes, please. 6 Q: Okay. General -- let's focus on you 7 first. 8 Did you communicate to the Stoney Pointers 9 that in your view they were trespassing by entering the 10 Park? 11 A: They were there when I got there. 12 Q: Okay. But while you were there, did 13 you convey that message to them? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you observe anyone else conveying 16 that message? 17 A: I don't recall it, no. 18 Q: You don't recall that. You did 19 describe assisting with the delivery of a message, you 20 were backing up I believe it was Constable Vince George-- 21 A: George. 22 Q: -- and Les Kobayashi who were 23 delivering a message. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you -- you don't know what the
3361 content of that message was? 2 A: No, I do not. 3 Q: But -- but you did understand didn't 4 you that they were trying to serve a Notice of Trespass? 5 A: They were -- they were delivering a 6 message. 7 Q: You understood that they were 8 delivering a message, they weren't trying to engage in 9 conversation with the people in the Park? 10 A: I'm not understanding where you're 11 going. 12 Q: Their intent was to deliver a message 13 and nothing more? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Could you turn up Tab 21 in your 16 book? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: This has been previously marked as P- 21 413, it's Inquiry Document 2002890 and it's been 22 identified as an intelligence log. I believe you may 23 only have excerpts of it in your book is that right? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And have you seen this before?
3371 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And you understood that it was 3 a compilation of information gathered by officers on the 4 ground regarding the Stoney Pointers? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there are some contributions from 7 you that are noted in the intelligence log. 8 Do you know how that information was 9 collected from you? 10 A: We -- we submitted a -- a log as 11 previous documents have shown. We -- we submitted a log 12 so I'm assuming that some of the information came from 13 there or some may have came through radio communications. 14 Q: Okay. The ERT -- are you referring 15 to the ERT logs that we -- you went through earlier 16 today? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you submit any other types of 19 logs with information for the purposes of being 20 centralized in a document such as this? 21 A: No. 22 Q: If you could turn to -- I believe it 23 is the -- the second page in your tab but it's marked as 24 page 37 on the bottom and there's an entry there for 25 August 10th of 1995, do you have it?
3381 A: Yes, yes. 2 Q: Okay. The -- the second and the 3 third entries include your name Japp and Parks? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And Japp was your partner? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Let's start with the first 8 one. It references the stopping of a motor vehicle 9 Ipperwash to Kettle Point. The driver's name is redacted 10 but it's noted that there is a record for violence. 11 Passenger's name is redacted and there's 12 information about there being a, 13 "warrant, two hundred and fifty dollars 14 ($250), assault by Forest OPP, turned 15 over to Forest." 16 And I -- and I see you've -- you've pulled 17 out your notebook ,do you have it open to the August 10th 18 entry? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Do you have any notation as to 21 why the vehicle was stopped? 22 A: No, I do not. 23 Q: Do you have any independent 24 recollection of why you stopped that vehicle? 25 A: No.
3391 Q: Was it your practice when you stopped 2 vehicles to get the -- the names of all of the occupants 3 of the vehicle? 4 A: Depending. 5 Q: Depended on what? 6 A: If we might have known the parties or 7 whatever. Lots of -- lots of things come into play when 8 you stop a vehicle. 9 Q: Okay. So based on what we have here 10 do you -- is it your assumption that you ran a CPIC check 11 on the occupants of the vehicle and that's how you 12 obtained the information there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And is it your practice to run 15 a CPIC check of passengers of vehicles when you stop 16 them? 17 A: Depending if I have some knowledge or 18 think I might have some knowledge about them. 19 Q: Okay. Some knowledge that -- what 20 kind of knowledge about them would lead you to run a CPIC 21 check? 22 A: That they had prior involvement. 23 They may be a wanted person or that sort of thing. If I 24 had some information or believed I had some information 25 I'd run them to see if they were wanted.
3401 Q: Okay. And you don't have any 2 particular recollection of this incident, you're just 3 telling me generally what your practice would have been, 4 correct? 5 A: I knew those people. 6 Q: Okay. I -- I understand that but 7 well, I didn't understand that but now I understand that 8 but I -- you -- if you knew those people but you don't 9 remember this particular incident when you stopped them; 10 is that right? 11 A: Yeah. I just have my notes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But due to the -- due to the family 14 history and the people are known, it would have been 15 routine to run a check on them. 16 Q: I see. Okay. And there's a second 17 entry which is -- is similar, the third entry on that 18 page, notes again the stopping of a motor vehicle, 19 driver's name is redacted, their address is redacted and 20 the passenger's name is redacted, and it indicates 21 they're travelling from Grand Bend to Kettle Point. 22 And do you have any notation in your 23 notebook that would explain why you stopped that vehicle? 24 A: No, I do not. I don't -- I don't 25 have any information in my notes that I stopped that
3411 vehicle. So Constable Japp have made the notes on that. 2 Q: Oh, okay. And so you can't -- you 3 don't recall today who the -- who the occupants of the 4 vehicle were? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Commissioner, my 8 computer has just turned off but perhaps -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe -- 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- this would be a 11 good time to break for the day. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe your 13 computer knows something we don't know. It's getting 14 late. 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I believe I -- I'll 16 have about forty-five (45) minutes when we start again -- 17 if we start again tomorrow morning. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I assume 19 you can't operate -- 20 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yeah. It -- it's 21 running on battery and it turned off, unfortunately. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we'll 23 adjourn -- 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Unless you want me 25 to turn it back on again --
3421 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. No, 2 no. 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- I'm happy to do 4 that as well. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 6 adjourn for the day. If you need your computer to 7 function -- and it is quarter to 5:00. 8 I was going to try and go at least until 9 5:00 and maybe even after but if you would like to stop 10 now, we'll stop now, start again 9 o'clock in the 11 morning. 12 We did start 9 o'clock this morning, so 13 we'll adjourn now. 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you very much. 15 16 (WITNESS RETIRES) 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 19 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, March the 29th, at 20 9:00 a.m. 21 22 -- Upon adjourning at 4:46 p.m. 23 24 25
3431 2 3 Certified Correct, 4 5 6 7 _________________ 8 Carol Geehan, Ms. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25