11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 27th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 9 10 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 11 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 12 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 13 14 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 15 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 16 Jennifer McAleer ) 17 18 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 19 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 20 21 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 22 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 6 GEORGE McKENZIE SPECK, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 11 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 20 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Melissa Panjer 36 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 47 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 168 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 203 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 240 14 15 CHRISTOPHER ALLAN MARTIN, Sworn 16 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 247 17 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 331 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1191 Document Number 2003112. The North 4 Bay Nugget newspaper article: OPP, 5 CSIS, Spied on Natives at Protest: 6 Police Knew Protestors Not Armed, 'Spy' 7 Claims", Saturday, June 12, 1999. 246 8 P-1192 Professional Experience of Chris A. 9 Martin. 248 10 P-1193 Handwritten notes of Chris Martin. 258 11 P-1194 Document Number 2003761. Transcript of 12 interview by C. Martin and M. Dew of 13 citizens with information regarding 14 occupiers activities at the Ipperwash 15 Army Base, July 29, 1995. 270 16 P-1195 Document Number 2000722. Camper's Log, 17 July 30 - August 03, 1995. 295 18 P-1196 Document Number 2000724. Camper's Log, 19 August 07 and 08, 1995. 308 20 P-1197 Document Number 2000725. Camper's Log, 21 August 08, 1995. 317 22 P-1198 Document Number 2000726. Camper's Log, 23 August 09 and 10, 1995. 323 24 25
91 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1199 Document Number 2000727. Camper's 4 Log, August 10 and 11, 1995. 326 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
101 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. Just before we get going with Officer 8 Speck and his cross-examination, I just wanted to take a 9 moment to introduce to the parties from the Province of 10 Ontario, Sheri Hebdon, who is seated down there. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: I just thought I'd 14 make that announcement. Thank you, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 morning, everybody. We're starting a little early this 17 morning. Are you first up? No, I don't think so. Are 18 you? 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I thought I was 20 first up, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and ready to go. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good Morning, 23 Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 Morning.
111 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I can 2 anticipate that my examination is not going to exceed ten 3 (10) minutes, so it's much shorter than my original 4 estimation. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 8 GEORGE MCKENZIE SPECK, Resumed 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 11 Q: Good morning, Detective Sergeant 12 Speck. As you probably know my name is Andrea Tuck- 13 Jackson and I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf 14 of the OPP. 15 And I'd like to begin if I may on the 16 issue of attempts at communication with the Stoney Point 17 occupiers. And I'm going to take you to your notes, and 18 I want to begin, if I could, by taking you to your entry 19 for July the 30th, 1995; that's at Tab 3 of the materials 20 Exhibit P-1160 and it's your entry at page 81 for July 21 the 11th -- 30th, excuse me, July 30th. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes.
121 Q: You'll recall, sir, that this of 2 course is the day following the takeover of the built-up 3 area at the Army Base. And you testified for us last 4 week about various attempts that you had made to go to 5 the gate of the Base to try and speak to the occupiers 6 and essentially open up a dialogue. 7 You recall giving that evidence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you'll see, sir, that there are 10 entries in your notebook referable to 13:30 where you and 11 Sergeant Bouwman and then-Detective Sergeant Wright 12 attended at the main gate in an effort to speak to the 13 occupiers. 14 You see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And again, sir, you'll notice that 17 there's another entry at 15:00 hours where again there's 18 an attempt by yourself, Officers Bouwman and Wright to 19 again open up a dialogue with the occupiers who've moved 20 into the built-up area. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it would appear I gather from 23 your notes that while there was a willingness as it 24 appeared on the part of the Stoney Pointers to speak, 25 they hadn't yet had a meeting to formulate their
131 position. 2 Would that be fair? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And finally, sir, you'll 5 that there was another meeting attempt by you at 19:05 6 hours where you again attended at the gate, this time I 7 believe with just Sergeant Bouwman; you can correct me if 8 I'm wrong. 9 A: No, that's correct. 10 Q: Thank you. And on this occasion it 11 appeared that a meeting had occurred, so the person with 12 whom you spoke, I believe it was Bruce Manning, was in a 13 position to speak with you; isn't that true? 14 A: I don't know if the meeting had 15 occurred. Bruce Manning spoke to Charlie Bouwman but not 16 in my presence. 17 Q: Right. That was the one where you 18 stepped back to allow that to occur. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right, fair enough. Now, we've 21 had evidence before this Inquiry that it was actually 22 Inspector Carson who on July the 30th directed you and 23 Sergeant Bouwman and Officer Wright to make attempts to 24 open up communication immediately following the takeover 25 of the built-up area.
141 Does that accord with your recollection, 2 sir? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And so to make it then 5 clear, you understood from him that it was very important 6 that the officers make an attempt to open dialogue with 7 these individuals? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And you also, sir, 10 referred in your evidence to occasions when yourself, 11 Officer Bouwman and again Officer Wright, attended at the 12 Base on a variety of occasions in early August. 13 And I'm going to take you again to your 14 notes for August the 1st. If you could turn please to 15 page 83 of your notes. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And again, sir, you'll notice that 18 you attended at the main gate with Officer Wright; is 19 that correct? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And there appeared to be a 22 willingness on the part of those on the other side of the 23 gate, if I can put it that way, to speak with you and 24 Officer Wright? 25 A: Yes.
151 Q: And again, sir, on August the 3rd, 2 that's at page 87 of your notes, you'll see once again 3 that you and Officer Wright attended at the main gate and 4 once again there appeared to be a willingness on the part 5 of the occupiers of the built-up area to speak with the 6 two (2) of you, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And finally, sir, if I can take you 9 to your entry on August the 4th at page 89. You'll note 10 once again, sir, that you and Officer Wright attended at 11 the main gate and once again from your observation, I'm 12 going to suggest, there appeared to be a willingness to 13 speak on the part of the occupiers with you and Officer 14 Wright. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I spoke to someone at 14:10 and they 19 wouldn't turn Jackson over to us. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Is that -- 22 Q: But my point is, I appreciate that 23 there wasn't a willingness to turn over Cleveland Jackson 24 over, but there still appeared to be a willingness on the 25 part of the Stoney Pointers to speak with you?
161 A: Yes. 2 Q: Fair enough. And the one (1) person 3 apart from yourself obviously in this who's the 4 consistent person with whom there appears to be a 5 willingness to speak to is Mark Wright. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Thank you very much. You 8 told us, sir, about your attendance at a meeting on 9 September the 1st, 1995 in London. And if it assists 10 you, the minutes from that meeting are at Tab 34 of your 11 materials and they've been marked as Exhibit P-421. 12 And again, continuing with the idea of 13 ensuring that communication is open between the police 14 and the -- the occupiers you'd agree with me, sir, and as 15 it is reflected in the minutes, that Inspector Carson 16 made it very clear during the course of that meeting that 17 the goal for the anticipated occupation of the Park was 18 to contain and negotiate a peaceful resolution of the 19 situation? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. And again I want to 22 emphasize the point of negotiation. During the course of 23 that meeting he made it very clear, once again, that 24 there was a need to maintain an open dialogue with the 25 anticipated occupiers?
171 A: Yes. 2 Q: Thank you. The final area, sir, that 3 I want to take you to, you spoke to us last week about 4 your attendance on the morning of September the 6th, 5 1995, at the sandy parking lot? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And if it assists you, if you could 8 turn to page 37 of your notes referable to September the 9 6th? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 15 sir, you weren't tasked with actually removing the picnic 16 tables you were there more as -- as an observer; is that 17 correct? 18 Q: That's correct. 19 Q: All right. And your understanding 20 was that -- and -- and as you carefully counted them at 21 the time there were in excess of twenty (20) picnic 22 tables that were located within the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And over and above that 25 there were two (2) individuals whom, I think we can
181 probably assume for the purposes of -- of this Inquiry, 2 were the occupiers from the Park who were actually in the 3 parking lot? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And we know that one (1) 6 of them was Dudley George because you were able to 7 identify him. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And you recognized that 10 the -- that parking lot was not part of the Park property 11 it was part of land that belonged to the County? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And you also recognized, 14 I gather, sir, that it provided public access to the 15 beach? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And I trust then, sir, 18 that the need to remove the picnic tables was to ensure 19 that that public access was free as it ought to be? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Very well. Okay. Now, is it fair to 22 say, and I appreciate it's a long time and I also 23 appreciate that you don't have a particular entry in your 24 notebook to this effect, but is it fair to say that there 25 were approximately fifteen (15) officers in attendance
191 that morning to remove the picnic tables? 2 A: I'd only be guessing. 3 Q: Would it be -- would you be more 4 comfortable if I gave you a range of ten (10) to fifteen 5 (15)? 6 A: That's probably close. 7 Q: All right. And fair to say, sir, 8 from your observation when those two (2) individuals 9 sitting in the parking lot were faced with a number of 10 officers in the range of ten (10) to fifteen (15) in 11 number your observation was that they moved back into the 12 Park? 13 A: They went into the Park, yes. 14 Q: And they didn't appear to come out 15 again -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- after that point did they sir? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No. Thank you very much for your 20 time, sir, those are my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much, Ms. Jackson. I think Ms. McAleer is next on 23 behalf of Mr. Harris. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 morning. 3 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Good morning, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 7 Q: Good morning, Detective Sergeant 8 Speck, my name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one (1) of the 9 lawyers who's acting for the former premier Mike Harris. 10 I will also be brief this morning. 11 I wanted to start by asking you a couple 12 of follow-up questions with respect to some of the 13 communication information you received regarding the 14 position of the Stony Point and Kettle Point Council. 15 If you could look at Tab 3 of the 16 production which is Exhibit 1160, your notebook, for page 17 82 of July 31st. 18 A: July 31st? 19 Q: That's correct, July 31st, page 82 of 20 your notebook. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: It's at 8:45 in the morning. 25
211 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: What year are you in, ma'am? 4 Q: I'm in 1995. 5 A: 1995. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Which page? 10 Q: Page 82. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Do you have it, sir? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You'll see at 8:45 there's a note: 17 "Found out Kettle Point is having a 18 meeting at ball park with their people 19 on August 1 to discuss CFB and will be 20 evicting Stoney Point people." 21 A: That says, "inviting". 22 Q: Inviting? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you for clarifying that. And 25 that what was I was going to ask you. I wanted to know
221 whether, as far as you were aware, the information 2 regarding the meeting on August 1st was ever communicated 3 to the occupiers? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: We know that you met with Glenn 6 George the next day on August 1st, based on your notes, 7 do you recall if you had any discussion with Glenn George 8 on August 1st about this meeting? 9 A: I don't recall having any discussion 10 with him about it. 11 Q: Okay. Do you recall having any 12 discussion with any of the occupiers about this meeting 13 of August 1st? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Was it your understanding, sir, that 16 the Kettle Point and Stony Point Council were holding 17 this meeting because they had some concerns with respect 18 to the takeover of the army barracks? 19 A: It's my understanding they're holding 20 this meeting, an open air meeting, just to apprise their 21 -- their reserve of what's been happening and what their 22 position is. 23 Q: And did you understand what their 24 position was -- 25 A: I didn't attend the meeting, ma'am.
231 Q: Was it ever communicated to you? 2 A: No, ma'am. 3 Q: Did you ever have any discussions 4 with Nobby George or perhaps any other members of the 5 Stony Point and Kettle Point community with respect to 6 what their reaction or opinions were -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- about the takeover? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now, if you could just flip forward 11 to page 100 of your notebook. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Did you know Chief Tom Bressette at 16 the time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you have any discussions with 19 Chief Bressette about the takeover of the army barracks 20 on July 29th? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Had you had any discussions with 23 Chief Bressette, generally, about the occupation of the 24 Army Camp from 1993 straight through to 1995? 25 A: No.
241 Q: Never discussed the matter with Chief 2 Bressette? 3 A: No. 4 Q: At page 100 of your notebook, at 5 17:00 hours at the bottom of the page -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- it says: 8 "Scott Ewart called, looking for a 9 phone number for Glenn at the Base. He 10 said Kettle Point had a meeting today 11 to talk about going over to Base and 12 kicking out undesirables, starting with 13 Les Jewel. 14 Still a very strong movement to take 15 Base away from occupiers." 16 Have I read your notes correctly, sir? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was it your understanding that Mr. 19 Ewart had called you to get Mr. Glenn George's phone 20 number because he wanted to relay that information on to 21 Mr. George? 22 A: That was my thinking. 23 Q: And when Mr. Ewart told you about a 24 "strong movement" are those Mr. Ewart's words, or are 25 those your words?
251 A: They're his words. 2 Q: Okay. And did you understand the 3 reference to a 'strong movement' to pertain to within the 4 Kettle Point and Stony Point community? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So you understood at that point in 7 time that there were people within the Kettle Point and 8 Stony Point community who were not in support of what the 9 occupiers were doing on the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, if we look at Tab 30 of the 12 production. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Exhibit 1177. This is one of your 17 intelligence reports dated August 14th, 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in that report, it says: 20 "Members of Kettle Point [and then it's 21 redacted] here to deliver a letter of 22 Stoney Point --" 23 A: It's "were". 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: That's "were" not here.
261 Q: I'm sorry. Perhaps you could just 2 read it, sir. 3 A: "Members of Kettle Point [and it's 4 redacted] were to deliver a letter [it 5 says] of Stoney Point to have [blank] 6 and other unknown persons removed from 7 Stoney Point by 15 or 16 August '95 or 8 they would take action to remove them." 9 Q: Okay. And it was unclear to me, sir, 10 are you reporting something that you had witnessed? Were 11 you -- were you present when somebody tried to deliver a 12 letter? 13 A: No. 14 Q: What is the source of this 15 information? 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Were you aware of efforts by 18 the First Nation, the Kettle Point and Stony Point 19 community to deliver a letter to the occupiers? 20 A: That's the information I had. 21 Q: Do you have any present recollection 22 about attempts to communicate with the occupiers by the 23 Stoney Point and Kettle Point community? 24 A: I think some members went over. 25 Maybe Dick Bressette, but I can't tell you for sure who
271 all went over. 2 Q: Do you remember anything else about 3 that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know if they were successful 6 in delivering their letter? 7 A: I don't know if it occurred. 8 Q: Now at Tab 21 of the production... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: ...there's a memo to file about a 13 meeting that you were present at. And I believe it was 14 at this meeting that you were informed for the first time 15 that someone had indicated to Captain Ross that the 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park was next on the list. 17 Do you recall that, sir? 18 A: I don't specifically recall being at 19 this meeting, but I don't deny it either. 20 Q: Okay. Let -- let me try and frame it 21 a little more generally. Do you recall a discussion with 22 Inspector Carson and Mark Wright about communication from 23 Captain Parks about concerns the Provincial Park might be 24 the subject of an occupation? 25 A: I don't recall it, no.
281 Q: You don't recall any relay of 2 information from Captain Parks? 3 A: I -- I don't recall him at all. 4 Q: Okay. When was the first that you 5 heard that there might be an occupation at the Provincial 6 Park? 7 A: The first time I heard it, I -- I 8 can't recall when the first time I heard it. I heard it 9 on a number of occasions that the Park was next. 10 Q: Okay. We know from your evidence 11 that Glenn George told you on August 1st -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- that the Provincial Park and 14 Matheson Drive were -- I don't remember what his exact 15 terms were, but -- that at least he was asserting a claim 16 to that -- that land. Had -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Had you heard that from any other 19 First Nation person prior to that conversation with Glenn 20 George? 21 A: I can't recall if I heard it before 22 or after I heard it from Glenn George. 23 Q: Okay. If we go back to the time 24 before the occupation of -- of the Army Camp in 1993, 25 just your general interactions with the community
291 visiting Knobby George, others within the First Nation 2 community, had anybody ever asserted a claim to the 3 Provincial Park? 4 A: Not to the Park. 5 Q: And when you heard this claim from 6 Glenn George on August 1st, I take it you -- you took 7 that seriously. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And again, on August 14th you had a 10 conversation with Glenn George and it was at that point 11 you told us that he made reference to the water plant 12 within the Provincial Park. 13 And if you want to take a minute to find 14 that in your notes -- I have it at page 9 of your notes, 15 but your notes tend to renumber every couple of booklets. 16 So it's Tab 3; it's page 9 August 14th. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And it's at ten o'clock in the 21 morning. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 23 what page? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: 98. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 98 of mine?
301 MR. DONALD WORME: You'll find it at page 2 98 of yours. 3 THE WITNESS: Page what, ma'am? 4 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Well, the -- page 5 9 your notebook. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got a 7 different number. I've got a different numbering system. 8 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: You do. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 15 Q: The easiest way for you to search it, 16 Detective Sergeant Speck, is -- is by date, August 14th. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Yeah, it starts at your page 7. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Mr. Worme's informing me that it may 25 be your book 9.
311 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: On August the 14th? No. 4 Q: Do you have it now, sir? 5 A: No, I do not. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: August 1995. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: August 14th 11 '95 is what you said. 12 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: That's correct. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 16 Q: August 14th, 1995 starting at page 7 17 of your notebook for that time period. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: It's not August 14th, 1995. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I think Mr. Worme is going to help us
321 out. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Do you have it now, sir? 6 A: Yes, I have the page. 7 Q: Great. So you'll see that August 8 14th starts on page 7, but I would like you to turn to 9 page 9 please which is a continuation of your note for 10 August 14th. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Sergeant Speck, you'll see that 15 actually -- Mr. Roland just pointed out to me August 15th 16 starts at the top of page 8 so it's actually August 15th. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: So you're there now? Now -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- in his examination-in-chief Mr. 21 Worme had taken you two (2) intelligence reports that 22 related to this incident and those reports are at Tab 30 23 and Tab 31. Don't -- you don't need to go there I'm just 24 saying that for the record, but I wanted to take you back 25 to your original note.
331 A: Okay. 2 Q: Now, if you look at 10:00 a.m. -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and you scroll down to where it 5 says, "Glenn George" -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- can you read that for me, sir? 8 A: "I spoke with Glenn George about 9 [excuse me] the way the natives were 10 driving on Matheson Drive and shining 11 lights on the campers. Glenn started 12 talking and it appeared -- it appears 13 they don't like the idea of the water 14 control for CFB is in Ipperwash Park. 15 It appears both Ipperwash and Pinery 16 Park are both high on their agenda to 17 control. 18 Also spoke of the land between the Army 19 Camp Road and Kettle Point belonging to 20 them as it was also leased by the 21 Military." 22 Q: That's fine, thank you, sir. And 23 when you were speaking to Glenn George and he raised the 24 issue of the water plant, did you understand him to be 25 telling you that one of the reasons they wanted to take
341 the Provincial Park was because the water plant was in 2 there? 3 A: That thought did cross my mind that 4 that was one of the reasons. 5 Q: Okay. Were any other reasons -- you 6 told us about the burial ground that Mr. George 7 mentioned, did he raise any other reasons with you as to 8 why his group or he in particular, may want to take over 9 the Provincial Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do you recall anybody ever suggesting 12 that, if they took the Provincial Park then they would 13 have a clear square, or tract of land from Lake Huron to 14 Highway 21? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did anybody ever communicate to you 17 that there was also a wish to take over some cottage area 18 in the Port Franks area? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, turning to the day that the 24 Provincial Park was taken over, you indicated that you 25 were there. You weren't able to tell us how many police
351 officers you remembered or how many occupiers you 2 remembered, but is it fair to say that the occupiers 3 outnumbered the police officers? 4 A: I think so. 5 Q: And at one point, Sergeant Korosec 6 informs the police officers that you are all to leave. 7 Now, was it your understanding, sir, that the reason you 8 were leaving is because tensions were escalating and that 9 if the police did not leave, there could be a potential 10 for -- for violence? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And you were present when 13 Judas George or Roderick George smashed the cruiser 14 window; that's correct, isn't it? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you see any of the other 17 occupiers say anything to Mr. George to the effect that 18 he should not have done that? Did anybody voice any 19 opposition or -- 20 A: I don't -- 21 Q: -- concern? 22 A: I don't recall any. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are all my 24 questions. Thanks. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
361 very much. I think Mr. Sulman is next, on behalf of Mr. 2 Beaubien. 3 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Good morning, Mr. 4 Commissioner. Our areas of question have been covered 5 now, so I have no questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Sulman. 8 I believe Counsel on behalf of Ms. Hutton 9 is next. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 morning. 15 MS. MELISSA PANJER: Good morning. 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MELISSA PANJER: 18 Q: My name's Melissa Panjer and I'm one 19 of the lawyers representing Deb Hutton who was an 20 executive assistant, Issues Management, to the former 21 Premier. 22 I just have a few questions for you. 23 First of all, I'd like you to take a look at one (1) 24 document. If I could have it passed to the Witness. 25
371 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. MELISSA PANJER: 8 Q: This is document P-555, Inquiry 9 Document 20002951 and Chief Superintendent Coles has 10 testified that this document was the operational plan in 11 place in 1993. 12 I just wanted to know if you've ever seen 13 this document before? 14 A: I have to read it first. 15 Q: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Parts of it appear familiar to me. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Now, whether it's from another 22 document I don't know. 23 A: Well, I'm -- I've got another 24 document for you to take a look at in that case. This is 25 P-400, Inquiry Document 20002678.
381 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if I've seen 6 this one or not. It -- some of the things in here are 7 similar to plans out of a briefing from the -- John 8 Carson gave to the troops in Forest here. The -- some of 9 the items appear quite close to being the same. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. MELISSA PANJER: 12 Q: But to -- to which briefing are you 13 referring to, relating to the occupation of -- 14 A: It's the briefing that we had in 15 London, I'm sorry. 16 Q: Yeah, on the -- on September 1st -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- there was a meeting? Okay. 19 You're not sure if you saw them. I just wanted to ask 20 you about the two (2) documents. 21 This -- the second version -- document was 22 prepared earlier, and unlike the first document which is 23 P-555 it doesn't include certain pages which set out 24 various scenarios and the cont -- contingency plans and 25 logistics for those scenario -- scenarios.
391 A: Yes. 2 Q: So I take it that P-400 was just a 3 draft of P-555? 4 A: It appears that way. 5 Q: But you're not sure -- 6 A: I didn't make up the documents and -- 7 Q: -- because you're not sure that you 8 saw it? Okay. 9 A: I'm not sure. 10 Q: All right. We'll move on then. 11 And you referred to the September 1st 12 planning meeting in relation to the potential occupation 13 of the Park. I'd like you to turn to the minutes for 14 that meeting which is your Tab 34, P-421. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And on page 4 about halfway down the 19 page there's a paragraph that begins, "Even if this is 20 peaceful". 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'd like you to take a look at 23 the sentence: 24 "The reason for containing is we are 25 trying to stop any additional people
401 coming into the Park." 2 And in relation to that I also would like 3 you to turn to the -- the fourth page from the back of 4 the document, or the second page from the back, I'm 5 sorry. 6 And two-thirds (2/3's) or three-quarters 7 (3/4's) of the -- down the page there's the word, "Mark"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: "MARK: The natives will be using 10 women and children. Sees threat from 11 outsiders trying to get into the Park. 12 JOHN: This is the main concern for 13 our perimeter. The whole reason for 14 cordon is to maintain the amount of 15 people in the Park." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you -- do you recall anyone saying 18 something about the threat of outsiders trying to get 19 into the Park once it was occupied? 20 A: Those exact words, I don't remember 21 those exact words. 22 Q: Do you recall something to that 23 effect? 24 A: That -- I know the -- part of the 25 plan included keeping people out of the Park, not going
411 into the Park but keeping other people out of the Park, 2 and if they crossed your perimeter then they were to be 3 arrested for obstruction. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: That's the plan that I'm aware of. 6 Q: And do you recall John Carson saying 7 that the reason for maintaining that perimeter was to 8 maintain the amount of people in the Park and prevent the 9 other people from getting inside? 10 A: That would be the reasoning for it. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I don't specifically remember the 13 words. 14 Q: Okay. And you also testified that 15 you attended training in relation to the policing of West 16 Ipperwash Beach in the Camp. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the training material at -- is at 19 Tab 9 and it's Exhibit P-1093. Near the back of the 20 document, I think it's the fifth page from the back, 21 there's a memorandum dated April 20th, 1995. 22 First I'd like to confirm that you would 23 have seen this training material? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this memorandum from Staff
421 Sergeant Bouwman relates to the policy for policing the 2 Camp in West Ipperwash Beach in 1995; is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And on page 4 I'd like to draw your 5 attention to something. 6 "Number 7. Remember we are a neutral 7 entity. We will take enforcement 8 action against anyone who breaks the 9 law regardless of race." 10 Do you recall that being communicated at 11 the training? 12 A: I remember that we're supposed to 13 remain neutral and treat everybody the same. 14 Q: Regardless of race? 15 A: Regardless of anything. 16 Q: Regardless of anything. And I take 17 it that this wasn't a new concept to you and you would 18 have known that before this training and before September 19 1995? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you knew that while you had a 22 discretion about when and what charges to lay, it was 23 your job to enforce the law against anyone -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: -- regardless of race or anything
431 else? 2 A: That's -- that's always been the way. 3 Q: You recommended that a neutral 4 person, possibly a trained Aboriginal person should be 5 brought in at the earliest possible time in order to 6 encourage dialogue with the police. Do you recall that? 7 A: Somebody would be -- that would be 8 respected by both sides and if -- who both sides would 9 listen to. 10 Q: Okay. And Inspector Carson has 11 testified that it would have been inappropriate for him 12 as a representative of the OPP to desig -- designate 13 someone to enter into negotiations relating to the 14 potential land claim. 15 And he said that the purpose of seeking 16 discussions with the occupiers was to maintain dialogue 17 so that everyone could work through the issue peacefully 18 and everyone would know what the other side was doing. 19 Do you agree with Inspector Carson that 20 there's a difference between the OPP seeking discussions 21 with the occupiers to try to resolve the issue peacefully 22 and the Government entering into substantive discussions 23 relating to a land claim; so a difference between the 24 police trying to negotiate an end to the occupation that 25 was peaceful and the Government trying to negotiate a --
441 a resolution of the land claim? 2 A: Well, there's two (2) separate 3 things. 4 Q: And my question to you -- so you 5 agree that there is a difference -- 6 A: Absolutely. 7 Q: -- between those things? And you, 8 yourself, don't have any experience negotiating 9 substantive issues on behalf of the Government? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And when you made your 12 recommendation, you referred to your experience that at 13 one time the occupiers were very difficult to communicate 14 with? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I take it that you would agree 17 that in your experience all of the parties involved must 18 be willing to take part in order for there to be any 19 dialogue? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you know who Ovide Mercredi 22 is? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And is he the kind of person that you 25 would have had in mind to come in and assist when you
451 made your recommendation? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And were you aware that in the summer 4 of 1995, Mr. Mercredi offered to mediate the situation 5 relating to the occupation of the Camp? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. So you -- you don't know what 8 happened with that? 9 A: I don't know what happened with that. 10 Q: Okay. And finally, we've heard 11 evidence that the police asked Chief Tom Bressette for 12 suggestions as to how to reach out to the occupiers but 13 they were experiencing a lot of difficulty themselves in 14 trying to communicate with the occupiers. 15 Were you aware of that? 16 A: I wasn't part of any of that. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are my 18 questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. 21 I think, Ms. Clermont, do you have any 22 questions? 23 MS. JANET CLERMONT: No questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think, as 25 I understand it, Mr. Falconer, you're changing order with
461 the Estate of Dudley George; is that right? 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're still 4 examining on behalf of ALST, but you're doing that now? 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's your 11 current estimate of time, Mr. Falconer? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I expect that I 13 will be shorter than the two (2) hours I originally -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- estimated. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Out of a lack of 18 confidence, I'm not going to tell you how much shorter. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 Shorter is fine. That's fine. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: This is going to 22 take me one (1) minute. I apologize. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
471 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: Good morning, Officer Speck. 3 A: Good morning, sir. 4 Q: My name is Julian Falconer, I act on 5 behalf of Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto. 6 It is detective sergeant now, is it not? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Thank you. Detective Sergeant Speck, 9 if I could ask you to turn, please, to Tab 34. It was a 10 Tab -- of the Commission Counsel documents. It's a Tab 11 that Ms. Tuck-Jackson was discussing with you earlier. 12 It's the minutes of a -- of an operational meeting 13 chaired by then- acting Superintendent Carson. 14 Do you have that in front of you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. Now, just looking at the 17 list of attendees at the meeting, is it fair to say that 18 this was intended to be a planning meeting in order to 19 set out what may well be last minute strategy with 20 respect to an anticipated takeover of the Park? 21 A: That's -- appears to be strategy for 22 that. 23 Q: And I say last minute, only because 24 your best information was the takeover was going to 25 happen the -- the 4th or the 3rd of September as the Park
481 was closing following Labour Day weekend, correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So that you see the date of this 4 meeting, September 1, '95? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that's why I say last minute. I 7 don't mean that you didn't prepare before or the officers 8 didn't, I just mean this was -- would be one of the last 9 strategy meetings, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And in attendance, in 12 addition to yourself or -- or in essence, what amounts to 13 the command team that works under Carson, correct? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: For example, if you turn to page 2 of 19 these minutes, halfway down the page, five (5) or six (6) 20 paragraphs down, do you see Mark is John's assistant? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: He has the knowledge, or the history 23 of this entire investigation? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Who's he talking about?
491 A: Mark Wright. 2 Q: All right. And it's fair to say, if 3 you look right at the bottom, the last three (3) lines: 4 "Unit leaders cannot be doing things 5 either, unless you come through the 6 commander or assistant commander." 7 Do you -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- see that? And see how Mark is 10 referred to John's assistant? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I take it you understood at the time 13 and you continue to understand that the assistant 14 commander was Mark Wright? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. Now, in addition to that, 17 I want to ask you about other members of the command 18 team. It's fair to say, and again page 2, third to last 19 paragraph: 20 "All the ERT teams fall under Korosec." 21 Do you see that -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- third to last paragraph? 24 "The team leaders can communicate with 25 each other, but Wright and Carson have
501 to know what is going on. 2 All personnel under the team leaders 3 should be advising their team leaders 4 with any information or suggestions. 5 This chart has to be followed and will 6 be in the command post. The team 7 leaders have to know what is going on. 8 The rationale behind this is so that 9 the team leaders can become the think 10 tank." 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that was consistent with your 14 recollection at the time? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: I just want to understand what you 20 took to mean by 'think tank'. Is it fair to say that the 21 idea was that people such as, for example, Wright and 22 Korosec, would be the persons involved in advising 23 Officer Carson on strategy, yes? 24 A: Any problems that were brought to 25 them would go through those officers to Carson.
511 Q: All right. And 'think tank', to you, 2 meant these were the strategic brains behind the 3 operation? 4 A: They would be making the final 5 decisions. 6 Q: And it's fair to say that in addition 7 to Korosec's obligations concerning ERT teams, if you go 8 to page 3, fourth paragraph down: 9 "Uniform members. Korosec and the ERT 10 leaders will be in charge of these 11 uniform members." 12 Do you see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It's fair to say that the idea was 15 that it wasn't just ERT that Korosec and his sergeants 16 ran, they also ran the uniform members; is that true? 17 A: The ones at the checkpoints, yes. 18 Q: Yes. And so the responsibilities 19 that Korosec and the sergeants under him had, went beyond 20 simply ERT members, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, you at the time had your own 23 role and -- and assist me, I don't want to go over 24 evidence you've already covered, but this document wasn't 25 covered in detail by your counsel, Mr. Commissioner.
521 Your own roles actually describe halfway 2 down the third page of Exhibit -- and I should have said 3 it before, it's P-421. 4 Now it's -- it states as follows, quote: 5 "Primary Investigation Detective 6 Sergeant Richardson and file 7 coordinator." 8 Now that's Trevor Richardson? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "He is responsible for all criminal 11 investigation that occurs as well as 12 preparing the paperwork and charges 13 that go along with that. As a primary 14 investigator he will come through the 15 scene Investigator Speck." 16 And that's you. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: "If we need more scene investigators, 19 we will get it. He's preparing 20 packages for the investigation teams." 21 Now, who is the 'he' that's preparing the 22 packages; is that you or Richardson? 23 A: I prepared -- well actually Trevor 24 and I both prepared arrest packages. 25 Q: All right. Thank you.
531 "Chart has been set up by Parent to be 2 used by everyone on the ground." 3 What chart are they referring to? 4 A: I -- I don't know, sir? 5 Q: Okay. 6 "This will give us to what your 7 authority is in the event ERT is put in 8 the Park. Diane Foster, the Assistant 9 Crown Attorney, is prepared to come to 10 Forest Detachment to do all the thing 11 in front of the JP. 12 Ident is also involved with taking 13 photos at the time of the arrest. 14 Scene investigators to make sure that 15 there are people on the ground to 16 identify the Natives." 17 That's referring to you, isn't it? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So one of your responsibilities was 20 to make sure that there was identification of occupiers? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that's why we see that the 23 ongoing feeding of information by you as to people's 24 names, correct? 25 A: Yes.
541 Q: "Logistics will get the bodies for 2 the primary investigator. Logistics 3 officers will ensure the vehicles are 4 available." 5 Now, I heard you say something in 6 examination-in-chief that I -- I was interested -- I 7 heard a lot of things that I was interested by, but there 8 was one (1) thing I noted in the context we're going over 9 right now. 10 And that is you said that you provided 11 information to them, that is intelligence officers, but 12 you -- you didn't get anything back. 13 Do you remember saying that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Now, I'm going to suggest 16 to you as a scene investigator, it's useful to get 17 information, don't you agree? 18 A: Depending on circumstances. 19 Q: All right. Let me take us to these 20 circumstances, to Ipperwash. 21 You're a scene investigator, you're going 22 in, you're -- you're actually an officer who's a point of 23 first contact many times with occupiers, correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you're a point of first contact
551 in the context of prime investigation, yes? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Would you agree with me that in that 4 context it's useful to have information coming back to 5 you about what's going on? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Why was it determined that you ought 8 not to get information? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: But that was the case. 11 A: That was the case. I'm not saying I 12 never got information; it was seldom. 13 Q: Yeah. And -- and it was noteworthy 14 that you didn't get information because you made a point 15 of having interactions with people to give them 16 information, yes? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: That was your job. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And these were people you were 21 expecting were getting information from others? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That was your expectation? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But they -- your memory is they
561 generally didn't give you information? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, if I could ask you to flip to 8 the next page of P-421 and unfortunately there's not page 9 numbers on it. And we can do one (1) of two (2) things 10 we can talk in terms of next pages or we can try to fix 11 it efficiently. I'm going to suggest, respectively -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You could 13 use the font number at the top left-hand corner. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I was going to 15 suggest, respectively, if we hand-numbered the -- the 16 pages of this document -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, the 18 fonts are numbered consecutively so it's just as easy to 19 do it that way. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That -- that'll do 21 it. All right. Sure. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The page 23 you're referring to now is font -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm referring at 25 the top left-hand corner 4145.
571 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It actually says 3 triple zero four one four five (0004145). 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 5 that's a good enough identification -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 8 Falconer. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 11 Q: And so you know, Officer Speck, if 12 your eyes are as bad as mine it's the fourth page. 13 A: I have it. 14 Q: All right. I wanted to ask you about 15 -- you're the -- you're the scene investigator, yes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And -- but in addition to that you 18 have this role of, in part, identifying individuals and 19 sending that intelligence back to parties responsible, 20 yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: It says that -- that the second main 23 paragraph of this page that intell -- quote: 24 "Intelligence will be under Trevor. 25 Analyst will be under Trevor as well.
581 That person will not have any definite 2 responsibilities, will be computer 3 literate to assist with intelligence 4 information to be entered into a 5 database. This will be Jimmy Dyke." 6 Do you recall that assignment? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Do you -- just -- lawyers 9 have to always ask this question, do you dispute that 10 that happened? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- the difference is 13 that you might have information saying that that never 14 happened, you know what I mean? 15 A: I just don't remember it. 16 Q: All right. The reason I want to ask 17 you about this is that first of all an officer of your 18 experience at the time and now it looks like the idea is 19 that there's a person in charge of intelligence which 20 happens to be I might add the person that you -- that is 21 above you is the primary investigator right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And that person has someone 24 working for him as an analyst and that's Jimmy Dyke? 25 A: Yes.
591 Q: Now, do you recall interacting with 2 Jimmy Dyke in respect of information you were obtaining? 3 A: Not specifically. 4 Q: All right. And I have to be the 5 lawyer; generally? 6 A: I don't know. I may have. I mean -- 7 Q: But you don't recall it? 8 A: -- I don't know. I don't recall. 9 Q: All right. And what do you know of, 10 based on your police experience, is the role of an 11 analyst in this kind of context? What's the role of an 12 analyst? 13 A: To analyse the information that comes 14 forward to him and pass it along to those in the command 15 structure. 16 Q: And I take it an analyst can be a key 17 position in any intelligence gathering apparatus? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Why is that? 20 A: Because they're collecting all the 21 information and dispersing it and know who they disperse 22 it to. 23 Q: You'd agree with me that one (1) of 24 the functions of an analyst would be to actually focus on 25 the information and as best they can, objectively, that
601 is without bias, is to assess the information; is that 2 fair? 3 A: That's fair. 4 Q: So you would want someone who had as 5 objective and neutral an approach to information as it 6 came in as possible, correct? 7 A: I never gave it thought one way or 8 the other, sir. 9 Q: But giving it thought now -- 10 A: Well -- 11 Q: -- you are a Detective Sergeant in 12 the OPP since 1977; you -- you've been with the Force, 13 correct? Yes? 14 A: I've only been a Detective Sergeant a 15 short time, sir. I've been at this area since 1977. 16 Q: Fair enough. Would you agree with 17 me, with your experience, that an analyst would be 18 someone that you would want to be objective and as much 19 possible neutral in looking and analysing the information 20 they receive? 21 A: I'm not an analyst, sir. I -- I -- 22 you know -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- you'd -- you'd be asking me to 25 speculate.
611 Q: No, I just wanted your experience as 2 a criminal investigator. 3 A: I'd want an analyst that can read the 4 information and pass it on and make some judgments from 5 it. 6 Q: And those judgments you'd hope would 7 be free from bias? 8 A: I would hope so. 9 Q: Now, as a criminal investigator do 10 you recall relying on any information Jimmy Dyke passed 11 on to you? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, do you recall any analyst 14 passing on information to you pursuant to any 15 intelligence apparatus? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I spoke to so many people, sir, that 20 could have happened -- 21 Q: Well -- 22 A: -- I just don't recall it. 23 Q: But like you said, I don't want you 24 to speculate, I just want to -- 25 A: Oh, I'm not going to speculate it --
621 Q: I just want to know if you recall -- 2 A: -- I don't recall it. 3 Q: No. Now, going to the fourth 4 paragraph of P-421: 5 "If the ERT goes in and they take the 6 place, we will move at least two (2) 7 ERT team units inside the perimeter of 8 the Park. Stan and TRU will come up 9 with this part of the operational 10 plan." 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now at the time, you understood that 14 if there were occupiers in the Park and ERT goes in, it 15 will be Stan Korosec and TRU team members that run this 16 part of the operation, correct? 17 A: ERT members and TRU team. 18 Q: Right. But it would be Stan Korosec 19 and TRU team leaders that run this part of the operation; 20 that's what you understood. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And I don't -- I'm not trying
631 to do this so quickly that you don't understand what was 2 being discussed. It was important at the time that as a 3 scene investigator, you understood the roles of the 4 various players, right? 5 That mattered, didn't it? 6 A: Not necessarily. My job was to 7 investigate any crimes that we see in there, or had have 8 occurred in there; that was my job, sir. 9 Q: Okay. It goes on to say: 10 "Stan will be the overall person in 11 charge of ERT. There will be two (2) 12 ERT sergeants, one (1) inside the Park 13 and one (1) outside the Park. 14 The sergeant outside of the Park could 15 also look after the uniform members 16 outside the Park. 17 This is going to be a tough job." 18 Do you see all that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Were you in uniform in September 21 1995? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. With respect to the 24 functions, though, that have been described in this 25 paragraph, is it consistent with what you recall?
641 And by "this paragraph" -- 2 A: I'm only going -- I can only go by 3 that paragraph, sir. 4 Q: Is it consistent with what you 5 recall? 6 A: I can only go by what I read here. I 7 don't recall it specifically. 8 Q: All right, thank you. Now, skipping 9 a paragraph, you were also told the following, quote: 10 "Even if this is peaceful, the best we 11 could hope for is to see a Court Order 12 twenty-four (24) hours later. 13 While we are waiting for the 14 injunction, the ERT and TRU will be 15 there, working operational. 16 The reason for containing is we are 17 trying to stop any additional people 18 coming into the Park. 19 We cannot stop anyone from going right 20 up to the fence of the Ipperwash 21 Provincial Park, this includes the 22 press, when there is no injunction." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: I see it. 25 Q: Was that consistent with what you
651 recall being instructed? 2 A: I have a vague memory of that. 3 Q: All right. Now, if I could just ask 4 you to flip over to page 1 of P-421, in other words, just 5 go back to the first page and keep your hand in the page 6 you were at, please. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: It's the -- it's the fourth paragraph 11 in. And I just want to understand what you were 12 instructed that day. It says: 13 "If the Park is taken over..." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: "If the Park is taken over, possibly, 17 approximately twenty (20) people will 18 enter the Park and not willing to 19 leave. MNR will be responsible to tell 20 these individuals to leave because they 21 are trespassing. 22 If they do not, then the OPP will be 23 advised and we will attend to advise 24 them they are trespassing. 25 If they do not, MNR will issue a Court
661 injunction to have these people 2 removed. This may take some time to 3 obtain. 4 The problem is to keep the people out, 5 rather than trying to get them out." 6 Now, what I want to ask you is this: From 7 that, I take it you inferred or understood that everyone 8 realized in that room that the real job was to avoid a 9 situation where the occupiers took over the Park, 10 correct? 11 A: No, they said if -- if they take it 12 over. 13 Q: "The problem is to keep the people 14 out, rather than trying to get them out." 15 You see that last line? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes. But they're referring to if the 20 -- others enter the Park. 21 Q: All right. So it's additional people 22 going in? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: That helps me, because I was trying 25 to reconcile this paragraph with -- with the paragraph on
671 the fourth page we were at. I want you to go, please, 2 back to that fourth page, which was, for the record, 4145 3 in the small font in the left corner. 4 Now, what I want to understand from you, 5 sir, is in terms of process, you understood that there is 6 an intention or a hope on the part of the OPP that the 7 MNR would get an injunction; that's what you were told, 8 true? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: The best we could hope for is to see 11 a Court Order twenty-four (24) hours later; that's what 12 you were told. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Right. Did you, at the time that you 15 were told that the OPP had a hope for an injunction, do 16 you recall incident commander Carson discussion with you 17 the neutral role the OPP was supposed to take; do you 18 recall that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Would you agree with me that there is 21 a distinction to be drawn between wanting or hoping for a 22 Court process that would allow you to remove the 23 occupiers, and simply following the law if such a Court 24 process gets issued? 25 There's a difference, right?
681 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, you didn't go to any of your 3 superiors and say, I sure hope we get an injunction, do 4 you -- did you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No -- any more than when you saw the 7 shack burn down, did you hope you could charge somebody, 8 right? You didn't hope you could, did you? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. Your job is to basically 11 investigate and make a call as to whether there is 12 reasonable and probable grounds, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You approach it neutrally? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you'd agree with me that 17 neutrally means you don't fall down on one side for the 18 land owner and you don't fall down on the other side for 19 the occupier, right? 20 A: You don't fall down -- no, you don't 21 fall down on either side, sir. 22 Q: And because if you do that 23 compromises your ability to enforce the rule of law, 24 right? 25 A: Well, it certainly -- you certainly
691 can't act neutrally if you deal with one or the other. 2 Q: And when you were in CFB Base, when 3 you were at the Army Base, you were alive to that, and 4 that's why you tried to keep Howse at a distance one way 5 and the occupiers one way, and the occupiers at a 6 distance the other way. 7 You didn't allow yourself to be co-opted 8 by either side, right? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you knew that people wanted to 11 get friendly with you, right? 12 A: That people wanted to get friendly 13 with me? 14 Q: That's right. They wanted you to be 15 on their side, right? 16 A: I don't recall that. 17 Q: Would you agree with me that, in 18 terms of doing your job, one of the ways you could 19 accomplish remaining neutral was when called to a scene 20 as a scene investigator, you investigate, analyse the 21 facts as best you can, before deciding whether you have 22 reasonable and probable grounds to make an arrest; that's 23 how you do it? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you know, as an officer of very
701 extensive experience, we're now well over thirty (30) 2 years as an officer, yes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The one thing you know is that you 5 don't go to the scene such as the burning of the shack 6 and say, I'm going to arrest these people and then I'm 7 going to figure out what happened after. 8 You don't do that, do you? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And the reason you don't do that is 11 reasonable and probable grounds is not the same as a 12 hunch or a suspicion, correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: You recorded in your notes your 15 hunch, didn't you, about the burning of the shack? You 16 recorded in your notes your hunch in terms that it was -- 17 A: It's possible. 18 Q: I can take you to it, but basically 19 in your notes you said that you think it was arson, you 20 think it was burned down? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Right. And that's because looking at 23 it, right, you -- that was your hunch, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But you may have a hunch, you may
711 even have a hunch who did it, but that's not reasonable 2 and probable grounds, right? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you know the difference? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that's why it's so important to 7 be neutral so that you can assess that difference between 8 having grounds or just working on suspicion, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Now, I took some time to ask 11 you about that because I want to read you some evidence. 12 It's quite short. 13 I have a copy of it -- I'm -- I have one 14 (1) extra copy I'm going to put in front of Mr. 15 Commissioner. It was a few days ago. It's just there's 16 one (1) passage I'm interested in. But to be fair to the 17 evidence, I'm putting it in front of Mr. Commissioner and 18 not you, Officer Speck, only because I want the 19 Commissioner to see the context, that I'm getting it 20 right. 21 There's only one (1) passage I'm 22 interested in. If I get it wrong, please feel free to 23 look at it. I'm not trying to keep it from you or 24 anything. 25 I just happen to have one (1) extra copy,
721 all right? 2 It's March 21st, 2006. It was the 3 evidence of Inspector Mark Wright, in answer to questions 4 from Mr. Rosenthal. And the only reason I'm putting this 5 lengthy portion in front of the Commissioner is, Mr. 6 Commissioner, you'll recall that Mr. Rosenthal -- on 7 March 21st, 2006, page 46 -- that Mr. Rosenthal had a 8 portion of his cross- examination put over and he was on 9 his second portion you recall? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And -- and you'll 12 bear with me, Officer Speck. 13 THE WITNESS: All right. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I promise when we 15 get to the keywords I'm going to give them to you slow, 16 all right? 17 You'll recall that Mr. Rosenthal, Mr. 18 Commissioner, wished to put a summary to the Witness and 19 you'll see the summary at page 45. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I only put more in 22 front of you, Mr. Commissioner, because I wanted it to be 23 clear that I was getting it right; page 45, line 11. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: "What hadn't been
731 clarified I've now clarified. You didn't 2 know the colour of the car?" 3 In other words, Mr. Rosenthal -- and 4 there's a back and forth repeatedly but, Mr. 5 Commissioner, I wanted to be fair to you so that you 6 could see that I'm trying to get it right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: All right. So page 45, line 11 is 11 really where the question ends up finally getting posed 12 after a lot of back and forths? 13 "Q: What hadn't been clarified I've 14 now clarified that you didn't know..." 15 And he's -- this is Mr. Rosenthal, right, 16 one (1) of the lawyers for the Stoney Pointers, all 17 right? He's asking Inspector Wright some questions, 18 Officer Speck. So if I can just ask you to listen to 19 this question. 20 "And what hadn't been clarified I've 21 now clarified that you didn't know the 22 colour of the car involved in the 23 incident and so all you had was that 24 there was a car involved in the 25 incident and it was a car driving a
741 wounded person to the hospital; that 2 was the only connection that led you to 3 arrest the brother and sister of the 4 victim Dudley George?" 5 That was the question put to Inspector 6 mark Wright, okay? Did -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- you get that? And to be -- to be 9 fair so you understand there was lots of back and forth 10 with the Witness and through Counsel over Mr. Rosenthal's 11 ability to ask the question and that's why I've put the 12 lengthier passage to the Commissioner. 13 Now, the answer is set out because the -- 14 of this back and forth, the answer is set out at page 50. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, there's an answer 16 at page 46. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I understand but a 18 fulsome answer is set out at page 50. There is -- I can 19 read all of the different lines but when Mr. Millar hears 20 me read out the fulsome answer given at page 50 he'll 21 realize that I'm capturing more than what was first set 22 out and that's why I'm trying to be -- be fair about 23 this. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 25
751 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: Okay. Line 1, page 50: 3 "Okay. Well, once again..." 4 And this is Mr. Wright, obviously not 5 happy that he's doing this again, but he does it and -- 6 and that's why I'm trying to get this. 7 "Well, once again there was -- I had 8 the following information." 9 Are you hearing this, Officer Speck? This 10 is Mark Wright answering the question. Okay? 11 "MARK WRIGHT..." 12 And for the record you just nodded your 13 head, "yes"? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. Okay. 16 "Well, once again there was -- I was -- 17 I had the following information that a 18 bus and a car had driven into a crowd 19 of OPP officers and deliberately tried 20 to run them over. We'll talk about the 21 car. Deliberately tried to run them 22 over and shots had been discharged from 23 that vehicle and OPP officers had shot 24 point blank. As far as I was concerned 25 my information was into that vehicle.
761 Shortly thereafter and I would say 2 contemporaneous with the incident we 3 get a call from Nauvoo Road which is in 4 very close proximity to the CFB 5 Ipperwash and Ipperwash Provincial Park 6 along with the reports that we have a 7 number of people looking for that. 8 There are two (2) people shot as far as 9 we know because of the 911 calls that 10 are coming in." 11 Do you follow me so far, sir? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: "In any event a vehicle shortly 14 thereafter shows up on Nauvoo Road 15 whatever this day is, I can't recall, 16 and I'm sitting in the Comm Centre. So 17 any other gunshots that would have 18 taken place in the county at that 19 particular time I would be alive to so 20 I know there are no other gun -- there 21 is no other gunplay. 22 And an individual comes up to the door 23 and says, You know somebody in the 24 vehicle's been shot and they say 25 they're asking for help. They don't
771 wait, they take off in the vehicle. 2 There is a description of the vehicle 3 that's given. That vehicle's then 4 followed, it goes to Strathroy 5 Hospital, and there are a number of 6 individuals in it." 7 Again, do you follow me so far, Officer 8 Speck? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Inspector Wright continues: 11 "Well, my position is that string of 12 events, based on what's taking place 13 and what I know at the time and 14 potentially that there may be weapons 15 in that vehicle and all sorts of other 16 things is that it's reasonable for a 17 police officer to come to the 18 conclusion that those individuals in 19 that vehicle were in that vehicle at 20 the time, that is, that the same 21 vehicle that plowed into the officers 22 and exchanged gunfire with the officers 23 down there, and it is reasonable to 24 arrest these people for the attempt 25 murder of those OPP officers.
781 Now, immediately after that becomes 2 your obligation to begin to investigate 3 that but certainly at that particular 4 point in my opinion you'd be in neglect 5 if you did not exercise the arrest." 6 Now, you testified in answer to questions 7 on previous days that you were operating on the basis 8 when you participated in this arrest at Strathroy 9 Hospital of Dudley George's brother and sister, you were 10 operating on the basis of information you received from 11 Mark Wright that you thought he had? 12 A: I did not participate in that arrest, 13 sir. 14 Q: All right. You'll -- you took no 15 role in the arrest? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Would you agree with me 18 you were at the hospital? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Would you agree with me 21 that you were the scene investigator? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: No.
791 Q: Okay. I'll -- I am curious about 2 that but we'll -- we'll -- I'll go over that for a 3 second. I have your answer. This is all I want to know: 4 In terms of process that you understand, the way it works 5 in terms of formulating reasonable probable grounds for 6 making arrests, would you agree with me that while you 7 have to use the same discretion and judgment on any 8 charges, the more serious the charges, the more important 9 it is to be very careful not to work on hunches. 10 Would you agree with that? Just as a 11 general proposition? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. So that you -- the 14 distinction between hunches and reasonable probably 15 ground has to the same no matter how serious the charges 16 or how unserious they are, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And would you also agree with 19 me though that from the point of view of when you 20 investigate, generally it's preferable to investigate 21 before you make an arrest? Would you agree with that? 22 A: It depends on the information, sir. 23 Q: Fair enough. Let me then ask you 24 this: In circumstances where you have people that are 25 operating suspiciously, you have a number of different
801 avenues you can take to conduct an investigation, if you 2 run into some people that are acting suspiciously, 3 agreed? Yes? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Give him a 5 chance to think about the question before he answers. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At least -- 8 THE WITNESS: I'm going to have you 9 repeat it too, please. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Okay. In circumstances where you run 13 into a number of people behaving suspiciously, you have a 14 number of different avenues you can pursue to investigate 15 that, can't you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And those avenues could include 18 running their license plate? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Those avenues could include taking 21 down a description of the vehicle they're in? 22 A: If they're acting suspiciously? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: No, sir. I would be stopping them. 25 Q: You'd stop them?
811 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. What would you do after 3 you stopped them? Arrest them? 4 A: It depends on what they were up to, 5 sir. 6 Q: Suspiciously. I did not say you 7 found them committing a crime. They're behaving 8 suspiciously. 9 A: You don't -- 10 Q: Would you just arrest them? 11 A: Not on suspicion, no. 12 Q: No. What would you do? You said 13 you'd stop them, what would you do? 14 A: To see what they're up to, sir. I'd 15 ask them questions. 16 Q: Ah, all right. You'd ask them 17 questions. And you're entitled to do that as a police 18 officer, aren't you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in fact it's your duty to do that 21 if you feel or you are concerned about suspicious 22 conduct, correct? 23 A: You know you're skirting around 24 things. It depends on the circumstances. 25 Q: Well, I'm just asking you to answer
821 the questions rather than analyse what you think of me, 2 all right? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 4 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not -- I don't 5 think of you one way or the other. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, you said I 7 was skirting around something. 8 THE WITNESS: But -- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I just don't want 10 to talk about what you think of me, I just want to know 11 -- if you can't answer the question, I'll repeat it. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not 13 saying what he thinks of you, Mr. Falconer. He's just 14 saying that the answer depends on the circumstances. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: And I'm putting to you, you said that 18 you could ask them questions, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And would you agree with 21 me that that's one of your duties as a police officer? 22 That's all I asked. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And in asking them questions, 25 you're free to ask them about the item or things or
831 situation that you find suspicious, right? 2 A: Depending on what the circumstances 3 are, yes. 4 Q: Sure. You're free to ask them their 5 names, yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You're free to ask them where they'd 8 been that night? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You're free to ask them if they would 11 be willing to sit down and give you a statement? 12 A: Again, depending on the circumstances 13 whether or not I would. 14 Q: No, but you're to do it? 15 A: Oh, I'm free to do it. 16 Q: And they're free to agree or not, 17 yes? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You're free to run checks on them if 20 they do identify themselves? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You're free to find out what their 23 role in a particular situation you're presented with; 24 you're free to do all of that before you ever arrest 25 them, am I right?
841 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now you had some familiarity with the 3 incident at the Strathroy Hospital; to your knowledge was 4 either the brother or the sister of Dudley George given 5 any of those opportunities to explain themselves? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: All right. Would you agree with me - 8 - if you don't know then let me ask you this: Would you 9 agree with me if they weren't, that would be unfortunate 10 in view of the opportunity to interview these people? 11 A: I can't answer that. 12 Q: I gave you a very fulsome account 13 presented by Inspector Wright because I wanted to be fair 14 to -- to all of the information presented, but the last 15 four (4) lines, I just want to ask you about. 16 Now, he said, quote, at page 51, line 15, 17 quote: 18 "Now, immediately after that becomes 19 your obligation to begin to investigate 20 that. But certainly at that particular 21 point, in my opinion, you'd be in 22 neglect if you did not exercise the 23 arrest." 24 "Immediately after that becomes your 25 obligation to begin to investigate."
851 Would you agree with me that as a 2 detective sergeant now, and as an officer of well over 3 twenty (20) years' experience, before making arrests you 4 generally have an obligation to begin to investigate 5 before the arrest, yes? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Again, it depends on the 10 circumstances, sir. I'm... 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it 12 his evidence was he wasn't involved in the arrest. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's true, but 14 I've now -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- asked him a 17 different -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just carry 19 on. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- question. I 21 didn't want -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just 23 wanted to make sure that I got it -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sure. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- straight.
861 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I just didn't want 2 to cut off his answer. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 5 Q: You said it depends on the situation, 6 yes? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: Were you going to say -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- anything more? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: As an officer taking a statement are 19 you free to call in and make enquiries of other officers 20 when you're taking a statement? 21 Are you free to say, excuse me, could you 22 wait right there, I've just got to make an enquiry of 23 other officers? 24 Is there anything stopping you in your 25 duties?
871 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Are you free, when you're 3 interviewing somebody, to pick up a phone, pick up a 4 radio, pick up a cell phone, and say, I have a white car 5 here, I have a red car here, I have person X, I have 6 person Y here? 7 You're free to do all of those things or 8 is there anything you know of that stops you from doing 9 those things? 10 A: Depends on the circumstances, sir. 11 Q: Would you agree with me, the power to 12 arrest and put someone in a jail on the charge of attempt 13 murder is a serious power? 14 A: It's a power that we have. 15 Q: And it's a serious one? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And with the serious power comes 18 serious responsibilities, yes? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it -- one of the serious 21 responsibilities, can we agree on, is not to operate on 22 hunches or suspicions, but to operate on reasonable and 23 probable grounds? 24 Can we agree on that? 25 A: Depending on the circumstances, sir.
881 Q: All right. Well, let me ask you 2 this, then. Thank you for helping me with that. There 3 are times, then, the power to arrest for attempt murder 4 can be exercised on suspicions or hunches; is that what 5 you're saying? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I never said that. 10 Q: All right. So we can agree that with 11 that serious power comes an obligation not to arrest 12 people on hunches or suspicions, correct? 13 A: We normally arrest people on 14 reasonable and probable grounds, sir. 15 Q: And that's the law, isn't it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: For everybody? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Including Inspector Wright, your 20 boss, yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
891 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 2 to take a break now, Mr. Falconer? 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Certainly. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 5 be a good time for a morning break? 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 8 break now. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 11:22 a.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: Detective Sergeant Speck, while you 22 didn't participate in the arrests at Strathroy Hospital, 23 you were actually tasked by your superior, Inspector 24 Wright now, and at that time it was Detective Sergeant 25 Wright, you were tasked by him, with Detective Constable
901 Dew, to proceed to the Strathroy Hospital to arrest the 2 individuals for attempt murder; is that -- you were 3 tasked to do that, weren't you? 4 A: Yes. Not the people in the car, 5 specifically at that time. It was a person who was shot. 6 Didn't know who it was. 7 Q: All right. Could you turn please, 8 first of all, to your notes. And for your assistance, 9 Mr. Commissioner, it's page 120 of the book of notes that 10 you have in respect of Detective Sergeant Speck. And for 11 you, Detective Sergeant Speck, if you turn to book 9, 12 page 40; these are your notes of the evening of September 13 6th, 1995? 14 And it's then entry that -- the entry that 15 I'm interested in is the entry at 23:20; do you have 16 that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Could you please read out 19 your entry that you have at page 40 at 23:20 going onto 20 the next -- top line next page? 21 A: "Detective Sergeant Wright advised a 22 male fired at our officers and we 23 returned fire and shot the person. He 24 is being taken to the Strathroy 25 Hospital. Detective Constable Dew and
911 I to proceed to Strathroy Hospital to 2 arrest him for attempted murder." 3 Q: All right. And the record will want 4 to reflect what apparently is an inconsistency between 5 what you've just read to us -- and I'm not being critical 6 of you, sir, I'm saying an inconsistency in the sense of 7 the transcript may want to reflect this. 8 At the transcript of March 22nd, 2006, 9 page 260 the entry placed for the quote was quote, "to 10 arrest them for attempted murder". I'm simply pointing 11 out to Madam Court Reporter and to the Court or to the 12 Commissioner and the Inquiry that at page 260 line 19 13 through 21 you may want to correct that because at the 14 present time it has, "arrest them for attempted murder," 15 and I take it your evidence is, Detective Sergeant Speck, 16 that your page 40 should actually read, "arrest him for 17 attempt murder," correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And you understand why the 20 difference matters to me? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, if you now turn, however, to 23 23:45 could you read that passage out please, the same 24 evening? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is
921 that, Mr. Falconer, I don't see a 23:45 entry? 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: At your -- the way 3 the note's set up there are pages number for you -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- Mr. 6 Commissioner, and page numbers for the Witness and -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know 8 that. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I want to make 10 sure I get this right. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I 12 appreciate that you've got both. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm going to ask -- 14 I'm going to ask Mr. Worme to indicate what page number 15 for the Commissioner appears the entry for 23:45. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just don't 17 see an entry for 23:45. I see 2:45. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: My -- My Friend may 22 be right. Fair enough I'll -- I have an entry at 02:45 23 that is different -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- than the entry
931 that I just looked at, so I'm going to check the paper 2 and keep going. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: Detective Sergeant Speck, you were to 7 -- tasked to effect an arrest in respect of attempt 8 murder and the person you were tasked to effect that 9 arrest was -- was the person that was shot in the 10 vehicle, correct; that was the idea? And we're now back 11 to your 23:20 entry. 12 A: It doesn't say he's been taken in a 13 vehicle, sir. 14 Q: All right. Would you -- would you 15 agree with me that in terms of your tasks that night that 16 one (1) of them was to go attend at the hospital and 17 arrest the individual involved in the shooting who had 18 himself been shot for attempt murder; is that true? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Now, how long is the trip 21 from where you were tasked at 23:20 and Strathroy 22 Hospital? How long are we talking about? 23 A: We arrived at the hospital at 23:47. 24 Q: All right. So it was a twenty-seven 25 (27) minute trip from the time that you received those
941 instructions, correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: At the time you arrived at the 4 hospital did you set about carrying out the instruction? 5 A: Nobody was arrested by me, sir, or in 6 my presence. 7 Q: Well, you've given that evidence, but 8 I'm trying to understand what happened. You received an 9 instruction with Officer Dew to make an arrest, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the arrest was supposed to be the 12 person that was shot? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Okay. So I'm -- I just want to know 15 what happened. At -- you arrived twenty-seven (27) 16 minutes later, you've told us the end of it, which is you 17 didn't make the arrest, but I want to know what actually 18 did happen. 19 You're with Dew, what happens? 20 A: All right. 21 "Dew got a phone call, info received by 22 phone, [brackets] (Dew received) [end 23 bracket], white car loaded with Natives 24 are bringing in a Native with a sucking 25 chest wound.
951 Backup requested from London Strathroy 2 PF at that time." 3 Now, an ambulance did arrive with Nick 4 Cottrelle in it. Another one arrived with Bernard 5 George. 6 Q: You're not reading from your notes 7 any more? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. I -- just for the record, 10 because it's not your fault, but I just want to make 11 clear, what word did you stop at where you were reading 12 from your notes, for the record? 13 What was the last word you read to us? 14 A: Dew... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: The last words I read were, "Back up 19 was requested." 20 Q: Right. Could you please read on. 21 A: "Ambulance arrived at 00:04 hours, 7 22 September. Nick Cottrelle. 00:09 23 hours, Anthony O'Brien George arrived." 24 And I've stated before that that is an 25 error. It was actually Bernard Cecil George that arrived
961 next. 2 "And they were taken into the hospital 3 and I went into the hospital and I was 4 not present when the car arrived." 5 Q: Okay. Let's stop there. Now, the 6 instructions that -- well, you heard a communication 7 between Officer Dew on the telephone, yes? 8 A: Dew told me about it. 9 Q: All right. And the instructions Dew 10 received was there was a car coming in with an individual 11 who was shot, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you recorded that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I apologize for making you 16 repeat, but out of abundance of caution, could you tell 17 us specifically what you recorded in terms of Dew's 18 information at that time? 19 A: "Info received by phone [brackets] 20 (Dew received) [end bracket] white car 21 loaded with Natives are bringing in a 22 Native with a sucking chest wound." 23 That's what I got. 24 Q: All right. Now, when the term -- the 25 word before chest wound is what?
971 A: "Sucking". 2 Q: All right. Can you assist me on what 3 that means? 4 A: Sucking chest wound, sir, is a wound 5 in the chest that where there's air going on. 6 Q: All right. Fair enough. I just 7 wanted to understand your usage of that term. 8 You and I are agreed that there was no 9 other vehicle that night that came in, in that fashion, 10 other than Dudley George, his brother and his sister; 11 yes? 12 A: None that I saw. 13 Q: Right. So it's fair to say whoever 14 gave information to Dew over the phone, was relaying his 15 instructions to him about what he was supposed to do with 16 that vehicle, true? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And the instructions he 19 received was to arrest the occupants of the vehicle? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you see anywhere in your note, 22 about Dew's information, where he is to ask them or 23 inquire of them who they are, and what they're doing 24 there? 25 A: No.
981 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Would you agree that your reporting 4 relationship with Mark Wright was such that if Mark 5 Wright told you to arrest the occupants of that vehicle, 6 you'd just go ahead and arrest them? 7 A: Probably. 8 Q: All right. If it was left up to you, 9 that is exercise your judgment, take steps in respect of 10 who's arriving in the vehicle, would you just 11 automatically arrest them? 12 A: I don't know what information Mark 13 Wright had. 14 Q: Well -- 15 A: Sir, -- 16 Q: That's what I -- that's why I tried 17 to be fair about this. Remember I read this list to you? 18 A: Well I still -- doesn't change my 19 answer. I don't know -- 20 Q: Well -- 21 A: -- what was in Mark Wright's head or 22 what information he had. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
991 Q: Could you please -- I'm going to ask 2 -- as result of the answers just given, I'm going to ask 3 Mr. Court Clerk to place in front of the Witness P-1186. 4 It's at Tab 43 of your binder. 5 A: I have it. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: This is a statement of Constable 10 Angela Baker who's on scene. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: It's her statements dated September 13 7th, 1995. I'm reading you the first paragraph of her 14 statement that refers to you, Detective Sergeant Speck. 15 Quote: 16 "I'm a member of the Strathroy Ontario 17 Provincial Police. On 6 September, 18 1995 I was working general uniform 19 duties. 20 At 23:45 I was dispatched to Strathroy 21 Hospital to meet with two (2) 22 detectives from the Chatham area. 23 These Detectives, Mark Dew and George 24 Speck, advised that there were suspects 25 en route to the hospital with an
1001 injured party and all were to be 2 arrested on arrival. 3 I called the Strathroy OPP for back-up 4 from other officers. Constables 5 Millar, Dobb and Taylor and other 6 officers not from Strathroy OPP 7 arrived." 8 Is Constables -- you'll note from this, by 9 the way, that Constable Baker's statement is given 10 September 7, 1995, correct? 11 Do you see that, the top of his statement? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So she would have given this 14 statement at 10:30 in the morning, some hours after the 15 incident, correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: That's her contemporaneous account of 18 what she was instructed by you and Mark Dew; is she 19 wrong? 20 A: I don't know whose she's talking to, 21 whether it was Mark Dew or myself. 22 Q: These -- let me give -- 23 A: Mark Dew and I were there together. 24 Q: "These Detectives Mark Dew and George 25 Speck advised that there were suspects
1011 en route to the hospital with an 2 injured party and all were to be 3 arrested on arrival." 4 Does that refresh your memory as to your 5 role with respect to the arrest at Strathroy Hospital? 6 A: I don't -- no, it doesn't. 7 Q: All right. You still don't have a 8 recollection of this? 9 A: I could have talked to her or she 10 could have been talked to long before the car got there. 11 Q: Fair enough. But I'm just asking 12 about -- 13 A: I don't recall talking to her at all. 14 Q: Okay. But -- and you remember that 15 lawyer thing I have to do? You don't dispute that you 16 talked to her? 17 A: I don't remember talking to her. 18 Q: No. May I ask you the next question? 19 A: I don't remember talking to her. 20 Q: I hear you. You've testified 21 countless times in court rooms before? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Okay. So you know there's a 24 distinction between not recalling something and actually 25 disputing that it happened. You know there's a
1021 distinction? 2 A: I don't recall talking to her, sir. 3 Q: Can you follow me just for a second? 4 Do you -- 5 A: I know exactly what you're asking, 6 sir. 7 Q: Thank you, I'm glad. So in view of 8 exactly what I'm asking, that you know of, I'm asking: 9 Do you dispute you talked to her? 10 A: I can't recall talking to her, sir. 11 Q: All right. I'll take your answer as, 12 no, you don't dispute, correct? 13 A: I didn't say that, sir. 14 Q: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He says -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now, let me move on 17 from there. Let me move on from there. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: In terms of her statement, she says, 22 you and Dew, these Detectives, told us to arrest these 23 people when they get there. 24 Now, I accept you don't remember, but 25 you'd agree with me that certainly the information you
1031 had at the time you would have spoken to her was no more 2 than a man was shot in a vehicle with other people and 3 that that man had a sucking chest wound, right? You had 4 nothing more. 5 A: I don't know when this conversation 6 took place. 7 Q: Well, let me assist you on that. 8 A: I don't know whether I spoke to her. 9 Q: Okay. Do you see the third line, it 10 says: 11 "At 23:45..." 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: "...I was dispatched to Strathroy to 14 meet with two (2) Detectives from the 15 Chatham area." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "These Detectives Mark Dew and George 18 Speck advised that there were suspects 19 en route to the hospital." 20 Did you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: "At 00:10 the expected white suspect 23 vehicle with a flat tire arrived at the 24 hospital." 25 So may we presume from her statement,
1041 given hours after the incident, that the conversation she 2 says occurred happened in the twenty-five (25) minute 3 period between 23:45 and 12:10. 4 Can we presume that? 5 A: It's certainly after 23:45. 6 Q: And do you see how it says: 7 "At 00:10 the expected white suspect 8 vehicle with a flat tire arrived at the 9 hospital?" 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Would you agree with me that it 12 appears from her statement that the instructions she 13 recalls you giving her, with Mark Dew, she recalls it 14 collectively, these detectives told me the following, 15 would you agree with me that it appears that that 16 instruction was given in the twenty-five (25) minutes 17 between 23:45 and 00:10? 18 A: I won't agree to you -- with you that 19 I gave her those instructions, sir. 20 Q: Whatever she -- 21 A: She may have talked to Mark Dew, and 22 Mark Dew and I were there together, so she lumped us 23 there together. I don't recall even speaking to her. 24 You'd have to ask her, sir. 25
1051 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm going to refer you to page 267 of 4 your evidence, in answer to questions from Mr. Worme, to 5 try to refresh your memory. 6 At page 267, line 22, Mr. Worme's asking 7 you questions. I can have it turned up but it's pretty 8 simple. 9 "Q: And incidently were you given the 10 grounds for arrest when you were 11 instructed by...? 12 A: The informa -- yeah. The 13 instructions were from Mark Wright 14 through Mark Dew on the phone to arrest 15 the occupants for attempted murder. 16 Q: And beyond that were you given any 17 -- any grounds for the attempt murder? 18 A: No, only from somebody was 19 shooting at our officers." 20 Now, do you want me to hand this up to you 21 so you can read it? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you remember testifying on March 24 22nd to that effect to Mr. Worme? 25 A: Yes.
1061 Q: All right. So you told Mr. Worme on 2 March 22nd, 2006 that you had instructions from Mark 3 Wright through Mark Dew to arrest the occupants for 4 attempt murder; that's what you said, true? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Go back to my notes here, sir. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: For the record, I -- I just read from 13 pages 267 and 268 -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 That's fine. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- of the 17 transcript. I've side-barred the portion I just read to 18 the Witness and handed up to the Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't -- 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not disputing that, 21 sir. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: So we can agree that you received 25 instructions from Mark Wright, through Mark Dew, to
1071 arrest the occupations of the vehicle, yes? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And we can also agree that that would 4 be consistent with Angela Baker -- Officer Angela Baker's 5 contemporaneous recollection that these detectives, being 6 Mark Dew and George Speck, advised that there were 7 suspects en route to the hospital with an injured party 8 and all were to be arrested on arrival? 9 A: I don't recall speaking to her, sir. 10 Q: But you can agree that that passage 11 that I've just given you is consistent with what you've 12 just said? 13 A: That is her statement, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, just a 15 moment. 16 THE WITNESS: Now, you have to ask her 17 who she spoke to. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll move on. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember speaking 20 to her. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll move on. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: Could I ask you this, sir, is the 25 reason that you're so reluctant --
1081 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 Q: Is the reason that you're so 5 reluctant to acknowledge that you gave this instruction, 6 is that you know there were nothing -- or there was 7 nothing anywhere near reasonable and probable grounds to 8 arrest the brother and sister of Dudley George for 9 attempt murder? 10 Is that the reason you're so reluctant to 11 acknowledge you gave this advice? 12 A: No, it is not. I don't recall giving 13 this advice because I don't recall it. 14 Q: A family member is dying in a motor 15 vehicle, and a brother and sister who accompany the 16 family member are not asked what their role is, they're 17 not asked who they are; is that acceptable to you as a 18 police officer? Do you find that acceptable? 19 A: I don't know if that's what happened, 20 sir. 21 Q: Well -- 22 A: I don't know what happened there. I 23 wasn't -- 24 Q: Well I read aloud -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let him
1091 answer. He can only answer the question that he has -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Certainly. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 5 Q: I'm going to put to you, sir, that 6 that is what happened; that they were arrested without 7 inquiries being made of them as to who they -- who they 8 were or what their role was; that happened and I'm 9 putting that to you; that's the evidence. 10 Is that acceptable to you? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I think if we were told there were 15 reasonable probable grounds to arrest them, yes. 16 Q: So in other words, you were just 17 carrying out orders, fair? 18 A: If -- the information I got through 19 Dew was there was grounds to arrest them, sir, and that's 20 what happened. 21 Q: That's right. 22 A: I wasn't part of it. 23 Q: You were just following orders? 24 A: I -- no, sir, I wasn't following 25 orders, I was not part of the arrest.
1101 Q: Now, let's back up, because I want to 2 understand something. 3 You said you weren't part of the arrest, 4 correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: You'd agree with me that the 7 statement of Constable Baker that two (2) detectives -- 8 by the way, detectives are superior to constables in this 9 circumstance? 10 A: Well, the -- we're all the same rank, 11 sir. Detectives control crime scenes. 12 Q: And you were one of those detectives? 13 A: I was a detective. 14 Q: Yes. And you've told us you don't 15 remember what Baker recalls, correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Right. But you'd agree with me, that 18 at the end of the day, all we have left is a blanket 19 instruction to arrest whoever's in the vehicle; is that 20 where we're at? 21 A: I don't -- the instructions came from 22 then-Detective Sergeant Wright to arrest the people, 23 okay. What reasonable and probable grounds he had, I 24 don't know. You'd have to ask him. 25 Q: Okay. And I want to --
1111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, we've 2 heard this several times -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- close out this 4 area. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- now. 6 We've heard this several -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I want to -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- several 9 times. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I want to close out 11 this area. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 14 Q: When you say "what reasonable and 15 probable grounds he had, I don't know"; you remember you 16 just said that? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Okay. When you say that, that's not 19 I don't remember today, that's I didn't know back then; 20 are we agreed? 21 I didn't -- I, Detective Sergeant Speck, 22 on the evening of April 6th, 1995, between -- I'm sorry, 23 on the evening of September 6th, 1995, did not know what 24 reasonable and probable grounds Mark Wright had for 25 arresting the occupants of the vehicle for attempt
1121 murder, correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Yeah. Would you agree with me that 4 one of the procedures for officers executing arrests, 5 based on information from other officers, is that you're 6 supposed to know what the grounds are as a result of the 7 advice you received? You're supposed to know? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I can't answer that, sir. 12 Q: No. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Is it fair that the reason you can't 17 answer that is that you realize, in answering that, you 18 acknowledge that procedures and protocols were not 19 followed; that's why you can't answer my question, 20 correct? 21 A: Incorrect. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I'll move on.
1131 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You weren't trained to march down the 4 road on the evening of September 6th, 1995, correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Do you know which officers were 7 trained for that duty of marching down the road in -- at 8 night? 9 A: I wasn't there, sir. I don't know 10 who marched down the road. 11 Q: All right. Thirty-four (34) members 12 of ERT marched down the road, among others. Do you know 13 if any of them were trained to do that particular duty of 14 marching down the road in the dark, to meet the occupants 15 the way -- the occupiers, the way they did? 16 Do you know if they were trained for that? 17 A: I'm not familiar with the ERT 18 training, sir? 19 Q: All right. Would you agree with me 20 that when you were asked questions by Counsel -- and I 21 apologize, it's one of the previous Counsel today and I 22 apologize for not being more specific, one of the 23 previous Counsel asked you a question. 24 They said, you know, fifteen (15) officers 25 went to the picnic table scene and the two (2) occupiers
1141 left as a result of their attendance. 2 You remember that being put to you? 3 A: Yes. Now, do you remember who it 4 was, I apologize. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 6 was Ms. McAleer. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It Ms. Tuck- 8 Jackson -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 10 Jackson. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- of the OPP. And 12 I almost never forget, so I apologize. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 15 Q: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) officers, 16 you recall, and then the two (2) people left, yes? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Right. Do you draw any distinction 19 in your own mind, because you -- the lawyer for the OPP 20 asked you this, that's why I want to ask you, do you draw 21 any distinction in your own mind between a group of 22 officers approaching two (2) people sitting at picnic 23 tables in daylight and some thirty-four (34) police 24 officers marching to the sounds of shield chatter in the 25 dead of night?
1151 Did -- do you draw any distinction between 2 the two (2)? 3 A: Certainly. 4 Q: Yeah. And would you agree with me 5 that on the one hand, the two people at the picnic table 6 could see a group of people approaching? They weren't 7 approaching fully clad in riot gear, were they? Were 8 they? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. They weren't approaching 11 marching, were they? 12 A: No. 13 Q: They weren't approaching with TRU 14 teams flanking them as snipers, were they? 15 A: Not to my recollection. 16 Q: They weren't approaching them with 17 two (2) K-9 units, were they? 18 A: Not to my recollection. 19 Q: No. A group of officers, in 20 daylight, went down to move the picnic tables and those 21 sitting on them moved off them, right? 22 A: That is correct. 23 Q: You'd agree with me, comparing those 24 two (2) situations is kind of like apples and oranges, 25 isn't it?
1161 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Thank you. I want to talk to you 3 about your role as -- as a negotiator. 4 You recall giving evidence in that 5 respect, don't you? 6 A: As a negotiator? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I've never been a negotiator. 9 Q: You're sure? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Well, I thought you went down there 12 to open dialogue. 13 A: I went down to talk to them but 14 there's a difference between a negotiator and going down 15 to do dialogue. 16 Q: Yeah. I'm king of trying to be 17 tricky about it, to make that point. 18 A: Well, all right. 19 Q: Okay. So you and I can agree you 20 weren't a negotiator? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Bouwman wasn't a negotiator? 23 A: Not to my knowledge. 24 Q: Wright wasn't a negotiator? 25 A: Not to my knowledge.
1171 Q: All right. I want to talk to you 2 about Eves because her name keeps appearing in the 3 incident logs and I just want to understand something 4 about her. If you could turn to Tab 12 of Commission 5 Counsel's binder for a moment. 6 Exhibit P-411. Do you have it in front of 7 you? 8 A: Go ahead. 9 Q: Thank you. Now first of all I want 10 to -- there has been quite a bit of evidence on what this 11 document is that's P-411 but I want to just make sure 12 that I'm clear before I ask you the questions I'm going 13 to ask you about this document. 14 First of all, the idea of this document 15 was to record in a comprehensive way, incidents by way of 16 -- of a log that happened in relation to CFB Ipperwash, 17 Ipperwash West, and ultimately Ipperwash Provincial Park, 18 correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the officers who recorded in them 21 knew they had a duty to be accurate, certainly to your 22 knowledge, yes? 23 A: Well, they were taken probably -- a 24 lot of the information taken from reports, sir. 25 Q: All right. And did you make any
1181 direct entries in this incident log? In other words 2 where I see the name Speck, should I or should I not 3 assume that you would have made a direct entry? 4 A: No, you should not. 5 Q: I should not? 6 A: You should not. 7 Q: Okay. So for ex -- and that's why 8 I'm -- that's why I'm being so careful to do it this way, 9 sir. If we turn to page 9. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, what 11 tab is this log at? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's Tab 12 and 13 it's Exhibit P-411. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 12, right. 15 Yes. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: And if you'll look at page 9 for 19 example, you'll see your name appears. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It says: 22 "Speck, Incident 9397-6 Captain Howse." 23 It's a date of June 9th, 1995. 24 "Captain Howse reports CFB vehicle hit 25 on driver's side with a bag of rotting
1191 fish and other garbage while passing 2 by. No damage." 3 Who would have made the entry, do you 4 know? 5 A: Probably have been Janet Vandenberg. 6 Q: Janet Vandenberg? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And can you say with some 9 degree of confidence that it wasn't you? 10 A: I can tell you absolutely it wasn't 11 me. 12 Q: Now, you see the difference between 13 that remembering and disputing something? See how it's 14 clear you -- 15 A: I never filled out this book. 16 Q: Fair enough. And that's why I'm 17 asking. All right. Now June 9th, 1995 there's this 18 rotting fish incident, yes? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, on my copy there's an edited 21 portion: 22 "While passing by [blank] no damage." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Is yours edited as well?
1201 A: Yes. 2 Q: Would you agree with me though that 3 on a review of your notes and based on the evidence 4 you've given to date, it was Dudley George's house? 5 A: Not particularly his house. 6 Q: Or his location? 7 A: The range area. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Now, where exactly -- I don't know if 10 it was at Dudley's place or not. 11 Q: Okay. Now, what I want to ask you 12 about I had said was with respect to this issue of -- of 13 my question about you as -- as I put it, negotiator, and 14 -- and I specifically had asked some questions about 15 Bouwman and I'd asked questions about Wright and then 16 questions about you, but I -- and I said I had questions 17 for you about Eve and I -- and I want to get to those. 18 If you could look at please, page 31 of 19 the Incident Command log, page 31 of P-411. Do you see 20 the page numbers are on the bottom of the pages, do you 21 have that? 22 You may want to spin that binder around; 23 it's a lot easier to follow. 24 A: I don't have a page 31, sir. 25 Q: Oh, my apologies. Could we have P-
1211 411 put in front of the Witness please? My binder has 2 the -- a more fulsome version potentially. Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Mr. Commissioner, this may be -- this 7 may or may not work. I have the more complete version of 8 the incident log in addition to the exhibit copy that the 9 Witness has for you at the present time and what I'd ask 10 is I even have a tab -- oh, Mr. Millar has something. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We've got a copy of P- 12 411. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's helpful. 14 That's fine and -- and you don't need mine. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We've got a whole copy 16 at Tab 1, Commissioner. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 19 Q: So do you have page 31 in front of 20 you, sir? 21 A: I do. 22 Q: All right. Now, it says at the top: 23 "July 30th, 1995, attended CFB main 24 gate. Met with..." 25 And I'm going to -- for redacted portions
1221 I'm going to say the words, "blank," okay for the record 2 so everyone knows? So I'll start over again. Quote: 3 "Attended CFB main gate. Met with 4 [blank]. Advises [blank] media 5 spokesperson. Spokesperson for Army 6 and OPP not picked yet." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So as of July 30th, 1995, is it fair 10 to say there was no spokesperson picked for the OPP? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: That's what it says here, sir. 15 Q: All right. If you turn back to page 16 26, just going backwards for a moment and I'm going to be 17 flipping back and forward, page 26 you had answered some 18 questions about concerns over Ipperwash Park. 19 I'm not sure that your -- the exhibit's 20 set up for you to easily make your way through it. 21 A: I have it. 22 Q: You're all right? 23 A: I have it. 24 Q: Okay. You had answered some 25 questions about when concerns would have arisen about the
1231 occupiers moving into the Park. If you look at the top 2 of page 26 this would be an example though, an entry in 3 relation to Carson: 4 "Military left CFB Ipperwash on July 5 29th, 1995, at approximately 11:30 p.m. 6 The Military has not as yet given up 7 claim to the land but left as a result 8 of safety concerns for their people. 9 The OPP position in this matter is that 10 the Military is the landlord of that 11 property and has not asked for the OPP 12 to take any action at this time. OPP 13 concern is now that of the adjacent 14 properties, in particular Ipperwash 15 Provincial Park." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that's fair to say that's 19 consistent with your memory, certainly no later than July 20 30th, 1995. 21 I'm going to suggest to you, no later 22 than July 30th, 1995 there was a -- there was a 23 significant concern, a particular concern about the 24 occupiers moving in and taking over Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park, yes?
1241 A: That's there, yes. 2 Q: All right. And it's consistent with 3 your memory? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, Mark Wright testified that those 6 concerns actually -- he agreed they dated back to May 7 1995 is that also consistent with your memory that in and 8 around May 1995 -- you'll recall, Mr. Commissioner, I was 9 asking questions about the attendees record in May 1995 10 at the course? 11 And I asked him as of May 1995 there was 12 already rumours circulating around that in respect of the 13 Park the occupiers may seek to take over the Park, is 14 that also fair? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: Okay. Now, the reason I ask you 17 about the page 26 entry, the July 30th, 1995, entry is 18 it's obvious wouldn't you agree that certainly no one 19 could doubt that by July 30th, 1995, you could be in a 20 situation, could be in a situation of having to deal with 21 the occupiers over Ipperwash Provincial Park; that's 22 obvious, isn't it? 23 A: Certainly. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Inspector Carson had a concern about
1251 it. 2 Q: All right. Now, July 31st, 1995, 3 page 37 and -- and just to show you I keep my word I was 4 really trying to get us to Eve so -- page 37, July 31st, 5 1995, you see a reference to Eve: 6 "Observed blue..." 7 And then Dew and then Martin and Dunn. 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, they as a group sort of describe 11 this encounter. Do you see -- and -- and take your time 12 and just review the encounter it's -- it appears to be an 13 encounter between campers and a person who's blanked out 14 who's ultimately Dudley George. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is 16 this, I'm sorry? 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's page 37. I 18 apologize -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 37? Okay. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- of -- of P-411? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see 22 it now. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1261 Q: Did you get a chance to read that? 2 A: I'm reading it. 3 Q: All right, now -- 4 A: Yes, go ahead. 5 Q: Would you accept that, in essence, 6 Eve, Dew, Martin and Dunn appear to be playing a form of 7 undercover role as -- as campers, observing things? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And that's consistent with 10 your memory? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that would be Sergeant Margaret 13 Eve? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. So, would you give me a brief 16 indulgence, please? I just want to -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: Now, Mr. Roland indicates I may have 23 gotten her rank wrong. She may have been a constable at 24 the time, but I actually probably suspect he might be 25 wrong, 'cause I saw Sergeant further on in those notes.
1271 But in any event, it's Margaret Eve, 2 right? 3 A: Margaret Eve. 4 Q: Yeah. Now, I just want to ask you 5 about the notion of a negotiator. 6 A: About what, sir? 7 Q: About the notion of a negotiator. 8 You've been a Detective Sergeant in crime scene 9 investigation. You've been an officer for a long time. 10 You actually said at the end of your 11 evidence in-chief that, from your perspective, you want 12 to appoint a negotiator to work between the parties, that 13 the parties can trust? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And you meant both sides, you 16 didn't just mean one (1) side can trust, you meant both 17 sides could trust? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Because the idea of a negotiator is, 20 to some extent, they have to present themselves as 21 neutral and credible, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So, for example, you wouldn't take 24 Constable Baker who effected arrests at Strathroy 25 Hospital, Dudley George, his brother and sister. You
1281 wouldn't pick her? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. You wouldn't pick George 4 Speck? 5 A: No. 6 Q: You wouldn't pick Mark Wright? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You wouldn't pick Officer Bouwman? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And you wouldn't pick undercover 11 officer Margaret Eve, would you? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. We're running dry on who got 14 picked. 15 Who got picked to negotiate? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I don't know if anybody did. Depends 20 on when it was you're talking about, sir. 21 Q: Well, you see, I'm just using the 22 dates that the incident commander tells me he has a 23 problem and a concern about Ipperwash. 24 I'm using those as my starting points, all 25 right, but we'll go forward in this incident command log,
1291 closer to September 6th, to see if anyone else gets 2 picked, all right? 3 You -- we're at page 37 now and we've 4 dealt with Margaret Eve as I -- as I told you that I 5 would. 6 Would you agree with me that, if we now 7 flip over to page 35, if you just flip back to page 35, 8 again July 31st, 1995. 9 Now, you gave some evidence about this 10 already because you were there. This is at: 11 "CFB, met by Glenn George, a 12 spokesperson dealing with police." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And they are: 17 "Government of the territory and 18 everyone receives direction from them." 19 And that's a reference to the Elders' 20 Council, right? Yes? 21 A: Well, I didn't make this entry and 22 nor did I -- it's Bouwman's entry. 23 Q: Okay. But that's fair, but you were 24 there on July 31st, 1995, right? It says: 25 "Require a meeting with Carson, Speck,
1301 myself." 2 I'm sorry, is this something you weren't 3 at or could you check your notes, because I may have 4 mistaken it, if I'm wrong. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I was at a meeting where they hadn't 9 picked their -- their leadership yet and I believe it was 10 around then. 11 Q: Okay. But I could be wrong in this 12 in terms of order of events, Detective Sergeant Speck. I 13 just -- I'm looking at this 12:40 meeting and frankly, 14 could read one (1) of two (2) ways. 15 'Cause it says at CFB. Now, the 16 unredacted says, "Met by Glenn George and Les Jewel.". 17 You see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, what I want to know is, Glenn 20 George identifies himself. Now it's either only to 21 Bouwman or to Bouwman and you and others. 22 He says: 23 "Glenn George is spokesperson dealing 24 with police. Elders' Council has been 25 established and is in charge. Will
1311 meet with different people." 2 Does that say that? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: You could be not there. I accept 7 that, I just want to go through this with you as whether 8 this was information you had. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think I'd ask the -- 10 the Witness to turn to page 82 of his book 8 of his notes 11 and he'll -- that's the -- his entries for July 31st. 12 That will assist him. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: Did you hear the page number and the 17 book number? 18 A: Page 82? 19 Q: Yes. I think it's book 8. Thank 20 you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I didn't meet on that date. 25 Q: All right. At page 82, there's an
1321 entry for you at 13:45. Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Would you read it out please? 4 A: "Attempt to get more information on 5 Natives' next move. Negative results." 6 Q: All right. Now looking at page 35 7 that I just read to you, I want to know if this is -- 8 your job was to basically, excuse the quote, you're to 9 sniff around and find out what was going on, who was in 10 charge and identify the people at the Camp, right? 11 A: Part of it. 12 Q: Okay. So I want to know if this 13 entry that Bouwman makes is consistent with your 14 recollection. 15 "At CFB, met by Glenn George who's 16 spokesman dealing with police, Elders 17 Council's been established and is in 18 charge. Will meet with different 19 people. They are Government of the 20 territory and everyone receives 21 direction from them. 22 School bus issue addressing it with the 23 Army and will be giving us a written 24 report." 25 Do you see that?
1331 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, when I keep reading I'm going to 3 be able to get the benefit of the blanks that I'm reading 4 off the board, so you know. 5 "Require a meeting with Inspector 6 Carson, Speck, myself, [and I see] L. 7 George, P. George, V. George and C. 8 Bressette in an informal atmosphere, 9 preferably on the beach." 10 Do you see that? If you look at the -- 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Well, it says: 15 "Require a meeting with Inspector 16 Carson, Speck, myself..." 17 And the rest are -- I can't say who the 18 rest are. 19 Q: That's right. They're blanked out, 20 and if you look to your right at the board on the screen, 21 sir. 22 A: Oh. 23 Q: You'll see the rest are followed, the 24 word "myself' is followed by "L. George, P. George, V. 25 George and C. Bressette in an informal atmosphere." Do
1341 you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. So what I'm asking you, first 4 and foremost, is, is this information, as recorded in the 5 incident log by Officer Bouwman, information that you 6 knew about? 7 A: I didn't know about this. 8 Q: All right. So you didn't know that 9 Glenn George had indicated he was a spokesperson dealing 10 with police, first of all. I have to go over each piece 11 to make sure you didn't know, right? 12 A: Well, at one time I knew when Glenn 13 was, but I don't -- I don't know if it was this time. 14 Q: All right. So you might have known 15 that? 16 A: I -- I don't know if it was this time 17 or not. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: But this is not my entry and I didn't 20 even know about this meeting. 21 Q: Fair enough. And then secondly, the 22 role of Elders Council. Elders Council has been 23 established and is in charge, did you know about that? 24 A: At one point because we had a meeting 25 in the Council Hall.
1351 Q: Okay. And did you know that they 2 were actually put in charge to -- to meet with different 3 people? Did you know about that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Did you know about the 6 acknowledgement, quote: 7 "That everyone receives directions from 8 them." 9 Close quotes. 10 Did you know about that? 11 A: I didn't know about any of this, sir. 12 Q: Okay. I don't mean did you know 13 about the meeting because we've established you didn't, I 14 meant the information passed on. Your job, in part, is 15 to figure out what -- what does your note entry say? 16 They're next move, right? That's your job, yes? 17 A: That's part of it. 18 Q: Okay. So that's why I'm asking you 19 about this information. You sound frustrated, that's why 20 I'm asking -- 21 A: Well it's because I wasn't part of 22 any of this, I didn't know anything about it. 23 Q: But you're a police officer and you 24 work on the basis of data you get from other police 25 officers, don't you?
1361 A: Obviously I didn't get this data. 2 Q: Well, that's what I'm trying to 3 clarify, sir. 4 A: Well, I told you that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 6 We've established that. Move on. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: I think, apparently. It may come as 10 -- as some surprise to you, sir, you're not the first 11 witness to get frustrated with me, so I'm sorry. 12 A: Well I understand that, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: Page 37 -- page 37 is where we have 17 Ms. Eve describing her role, and then again we have it at 18 page 38; do you see that? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Or her -- her 24 involvement. And now I want to turn to page 39. 25
1371 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: July 31st, '95, 23:30. Do you see 4 that? 5 A: 23:30, yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. It's a Carson entry; do 7 you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: "Carson attended Ipperwash Park, 10 briefed by PC Dew and Sergeant Eve." 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. So there's -- this is 14 page 39. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: At 23:30, so Mr. Roland will allow me 17 to promote Margaret Eve to Sergeant. And then at August 18 1st, 1995 you see Jacklin? 19 Same page, page 39, Jacklin? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "Jacklin: Stand by Pinery Provincial 25 Park, Number 1 District ERT."
1381 A: Yes. 2 Q: Do you remember Wade Jacklin? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What was his role, to your 5 recollection? 6 A: He's an ERT member. 7 Q: All right. Now, if you flip to page 8 30, there's a July 30th, 1995 entry that also pertains to 9 Wade Jacklin that I wanted to ask you about. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: July 30th, 1995, a Carson entry, 14 15:04. 15 "Wade Jacklin calling in ERT." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, is it consistent with your 19 memory that a number of ERT officers -- it says twelve 20 (12), at least, here, were called in on July 30th, 1995. 21 Is that consistent with your memory? 22 A: I don't know if they were or not, 23 sir. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I may -- I may not have been around
1391 when they were. 2 Q: Okay. Is it consistent with your 3 memory that Wade Jacklin, in terms of his role, is it 4 consistent with your memory that Wade Jacklin would have 5 had responsibility for calling in ERT? 6 A: It's possible. 7 Q: Okay. And then you see again the 8 Jacklin call out patrol, foot patrols at Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park. You see that at -- at 39 and then 10 standby Pinery Provincial Park Number 1 District ERT, at 11 page 39. 12 I'm asking you this because we have heard 13 communications between Sergeant Korosec and Officer 14 Jacklin, and there was some issue about who Jacklin was. 15 You'd agree with me that Jacklin was one 16 of the officers involved in administering ERT? Do you -- 17 do you agree with that? 18 A: I don't know what his role was with 19 ERT. I don't know whether he was a 2IC, or not. 20 Q: Okay. But you certainly remember him 21 as an ERT officer involved in the incident? 22 A: I remember him being around. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1401 Q: At page 33; page 33, July 31st, 2 07:46, it's Bouwman. 3 If that could be put on the screen so I 4 could deal with the blanked out portion; page 33. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: "At main gate, CFB met by Russell 9 Jewel. Stated he owns station wagon we 10 towed in, belonged to his sister Sandra 11 from Rochester Hills, Michigan, and she 12 gave the car to him. Advised to 13 produce ownership, et cetera." 14 And then it says: 15 "Les Jewel arrived and stated he was 16 alternative spokesperson to talk to 17 police. Further people to be picked 18 later." 19 Do you see that? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: "Les Jewel arrived and stated he was 24 alternative spokesperson to talk to 25 police. Further people to be picked
1411 later." 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was that information that you had in 7 and around July 31st, 1995? 8 A: I knew Les Jewel was calling the 9 shots at one (1) point, but exactly when it was it 10 started, I don't know. 11 Q: Did you know -- well, someone can 12 call the shots, right, but that's kind of a different 13 wording we've got here, although I'm not really -- I'm 14 not trying to be took picky. He's saying he's -- 15 A: All right. Then he could have been - 16 - he could have been the spokesperson. 17 Q: Okay. And you might have known that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And he saw himself as an 20 alternate spokesperson, and he ventured that further 21 people would be picked later, right? 22 A: That's what it says. 23 Q: Okay. Now, would you agree with me 24 that one (1) of the things you'd hope from that 25 negotiator, that you said in -- as part of your
1421 recommendation idea, that this person that would be 2 picked would have some training in how to deal with fluid 3 leadership; that would be one (1) of the things you'd 4 hope a negotiator would have experience in, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And the reason that you'd hope 7 they'd have experience in that, is it doesn't strike you 8 as that far-fetched that the leadership might change, 9 right? 10 A: No. 11 Q: In fact, if you look at the police 12 leadership, we have Carson as Incident Commander in 13 May/'93, then we have documents showing that Lacroix is 14 Incident, Commander in May/'94, that Bowen, for smaller 15 incidents, is Incident Commander in May/'95, and onward. 16 I mean, leadership changes, police or occupiers, right? 17 A: Possibly, yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And you would hope that a 19 negotiator would be experienced in dealing with that and 20 able to exploit opportunities as they presented 21 themselves, to have dialogue, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you're saying, in a very candid 24 way, you weren't skilled to do that? 25 A: No.
1431 Q: You got a chance to get to know Mark 2 Wright? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That wasn't his forte? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. And it wasn't something that you 7 had any understanding, any other people that you went 8 with, Bouwman or Eve, were designed or tasked to do, 9 right? That wasn't what they were there to do? 10 A: No, they were just trying to get 11 their -- somebody to talk to them. 12 Q: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 14 nearing the end of your time? I'm just asking. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah. No, I 16 understand and I have to concede that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You said 18 less than two (2) hours -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and you 21 started about quarter to 10:00. It's just -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's under 24 that but -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: We --
1441 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I just 2 wondered if you were -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I would say I have 4 about fifteen (15) minutes left. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: At page 20, July 29th, 1995 there's 11 an entry I wanted to ask you about; page 20, July 29th, 12 1995, and I'm at page 20 of P-411 still? 13 A: Yes? 14 Q: This is apparently entered by 15 Fitzgerald; the scribe notes. Do you see the top? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: It says: 18 "16:23 Detective Constable Speck 19 arrives. 16:29 Sergeant Graham at 20 scene Forest Detachment. 21 16:34 Detective Sergeant Hudson and 22 Detective Constables -- Constable Speck 23 leave to go find someone to act as 24 mediator." 25 Can you tell me about that please?
1451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: On the 29th of July, sir? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: That's -- 6 "The Natives took over the main area of 7 the gate, of the -- of the Army Camp. 8 We went up to the area, we stood by, we 9 didn't go in. Attempted to arrange a 10 meeting with people in Stoney Point. 11 We couldn't arrange a meeting." 12 Q: All right. I just -- I just want to 13 then establish with you that, and confirm with you, that 14 the mediator you're looking for is a representative of 15 the occupiers, yes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And again, Hudson is 18 Intelligence, right; that's his role? 19 A: Hudson may have been the Acting 20 Detective or the Detective Sergeant at the time. Like 21 you said, jobs change. He was also a liaison officer 22 between the -- for the occupiers. 23 Q: I apologize for being rude, sir, I 24 was listening to two (2) things at once so could you 25 repeat that last answer, please?
1461 A: I don't know whether Hudson was a 2 detective sergeant at this time for the crime unit or he 3 was acting as the liaison between the occupiers and the - 4 - and the OPP. 5 Q: Well, if you look -- in terms of 6 Hudson, if you look at page 27, which is at July 30th, 7 and I'd ask you to -- well, we've dealt with the entry at 8 20, so that's fine. 9 If you look at page 27, which is the July 10 30th, 1995, entry. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: This is a Wright entry, Mark Wright. 16 "10-8, back to CFB Ipperwash." 17 You see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: "Patrol perimeter of base." 20 Then the next line: 21 "Discussion with Inspector Carson re. 22 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 23 likelihood of takeover by Natives." 24 Do you see that? 25
1471 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Are you with me? Page 27. It's the 4 third and fourth lines. 5 "Discussion with Inspector Carson re. 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 7 likelihood of takeover by Natives." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: "information from informant that 10 Natives had weapons and also planned to 11 take the Park. Decision was that there 12 may be the likelihood of attempt to 13 take Ipperwash Provincial Park in 14 addition to ensuring safety, security 15 and enjoyment of lawful activities by 16 community members and campers alike. 17 Also concern regarding the possibility 18 of campers wandering over onto the 19 occupied area. Discussion with Speck 20 and Hudson re. intelligence gathering 21 avenues. 22 Arrival and briefing of Superintendent 23 Parkins." 24 You see that? 25 A: Yes.
1481 Q: "Strategy Number 1 District ERT to 2 attend Forest and provide patrols of 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park, 4 2. Bunk out at Pinery to act on rapid 5 reactionary force in event of situation 6 developing at Ipperwash. 7 3. Support to officers at Park." 8 You see all that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And at the last two (2) lines 11 of that entry: 12 "Duty NCO's, Detective Sergeant Hudson 13 and Sergeant McDonald assigned as duty 14 NCO's to coordinate at command post." 15 Now, let me ask you. Do you recall 16 meeting with Mark Wright and discussing intelligence 17 gathering avenues? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Does it help you, though, in terms of 20 who Hudson is? 21 A: Yeah. Apparently he was assigned as 22 a duty NCO. 23 Q: right. And he was obviously skilled 24 enough in intelligence gathering avenues that he would 25 have had a discussion with the second in command, Mark
1491 Wright, about it; yes? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Along with you? 4 A: I don't -- I don't recall the 5 discussion, sir. 6 Q: No, but what I'm asking you is -- 7 A: I'm not denying it took place. 8 Q: Fair enough. And the discussion was 9 on intelligence gathering avenues? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you're not an intelligence 12 officer? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. But -- and can you -- you 15 can't help me if Hudson was? 16 A: Intelligence is just information, 17 sir. 18 Q: All right. So when you told My 19 Friend, in-chief, that's why I'm asking you, you said, 20 I'm not an intelligence officer; you said that, right? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Right. Because intelligence officers 23 are actually trained on intelligence gathering 24 techniques? 25 A: Yes.
1501 Q: And analysis? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I'm asking you if you know if 4 Detective Sergeant Hudson was so trained. 5 A: Not to my knowledge. 6 Q: No. And neither were you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And you were the ones briefing 9 Wright, or discussing with Wright the intelligence 10 gathering avenues, right? 11 A: Apparently, yes. 12 Q: And then Hudson was the same guy who 13 went with you to go find a mediator with the occupiers, 14 right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And Eve, the undercover 17 officer, she's the one that's got the most negotiation 18 skills, right? 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: Okay. What I'm going to suggest to 21 you is no one drew a line for you or the other officers 22 on the distinction between enforcement and negotiation? 23 No one drew that line for you, true? 24 A: Nobody drew a line, no. 25 Q: Right. And when you gave the
1511 recommendation you did about how important it was to get 2 that neutral party, it was with the realization, with 3 hindsight, that there didn't seem to be a real 4 distinction between enforcement on the one hand and 5 negotiation on the other. 6 There didn't seem to be much of a 7 distinction, did there? 8 A: What I meant, sir, is you have to 9 bring them in at the beginning of these things. Like, 10 when they walked into the Army Camp, that's when you have 11 to start that. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Then the white people can get 14 comfortable with whoever your negotiator -- and I don't 15 suggest it just be one (1) for both sides to become 16 comfortable. This is trying to prevent the -- the more 17 serious things from happening. 18 Q: And -- and I take it your point is to 19 allow trust to develop? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: To allow credibility to develop? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that's why you don't take an 24 undercover officer, for example, right? 25 A: Well, no.
1521 Q: No. And -- and the whole point of 2 the trust and the credibility is it works both ways. The 3 occupiers have to be able to trust and the OPP have to, 4 right? 5 A: Both sides have to. 6 Q: Yeah. But what I'm exploring with 7 you, and I know there's -- nobody wrote a text book and 8 said here are the following six (6) chapters you've got 9 to follow in doing this. 10 But having said that, did anybody 11 practically raise with you, in a conversation, at a 12 meeting, that's there's a difference between enforcement 13 and negotiation and the two (2) shouldn't overlap like 14 this? 15 Did anybody talk to you about that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: No. And you'd agree with me they 18 probably shouldn't overlap? 19 A: No, they shouldn't. 20 Q: No, because the occupiers aren't 21 going to trust someone who's enforcing against them, 22 right? 23 A: Well, we -- we certainly had to try 24 and get dialogue. 25 Q: Sure. No, I understand. But --
1531 A: And that's all we were trying to do. 2 Q: I understand. You were doing the 3 best with what you had, right? 4 A: I don't know what you're getting at, 5 sir. 6 Q: Well, you got to ignore what I'm 7 getting at and just answer my question. You were doing 8 the best with what you had? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Now, what I want to ask you 11 about is at Tab 34, if you flip back to the -- that 12 operational meeting, the minutes that Ms. Tuck-Jackson 13 took you to and I took you to. 14 If you flip back, it's Exhibit P-421. If 15 you flip back to Tab 34, the only reference -- and I 16 could be wrong, so I -- I want to emphasize that, you 17 know, I looked through it and didn't find it, but that 18 doesn't mean... 19 The reference to a negotiator is found at 20 the fourth page in, 4145 in the font in that left corner. 21 It says, quote: 22 "Negotiator responsible to talking to 23 the people down there to get off their 24 property." 25 Do you see that?
1541 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, that really isn't the sort of 3 negotiator you were thinking of, was it? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No. Do you remember any concerted 6 effort at this meeting, or a recognition at this meeting, 7 'Hey, ladies, men, guys, girls, it's September 1, 1995 8 and we still don't have a skilled negotiator on 9 Aboriginal issues and you know, darn it, we're looking at 10 a two (2) or three (3) day window here.' 11 Do you remember a chat about being in a 12 pickle over having someone to negotiate? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No. And again, I take it that's why 15 you say what you said, that this is an important thing, 16 yes? In your recommendation you said this is something 17 that should be looked at. 18 A: Well I feel it is. 19 Q: Yeah. Now, I do want to direct your 20 attention so you've got some proper way to work with some 21 of these materials. At Tab 12 the -- the incident 22 report, you just stick with the exhibit copy, it's page 23 29. That's where they talk about this dialogue. 24 I just -- I'm trying to direct your 25 attention to your role in the dialogue. Now, page 29,
1551 the July 30th '95, 11:20 entry by Carson: 2 "Superintendent Parkins attended 3 Forest. Review event to date. Discuss 4 further possibilities. Staff Sergeant 5 Bouwman advised 10-5 from P/Parks. 6 Comment made when military leaving at 7 11:30 that Natives made comment that 8 Ipperwash Park was next. Pass 9 discussions with [and that's blank and 10 we'll leave it blank for a moment] and 11 Staff Sergeant Bouwman. 12 [blank] had stated that Ipperwash and 13 Pinery Park were Native lands. Media - 14 P/C Arseneault full-time for a few 15 days. Dialogue, Staff Sergeant 16 Bouwman, Mark Wright and Detective 17 Constable Speck." 18 I just wanted you to assist me on this, 19 that certainly as of July 30th, 1995 you were one of the 20 dialogue people, right? 21 A: It depends on what you're referring 22 to as dialogue. 23 Q: I know, I agree, but -- but I just 24 want to bring your attention to it so you can address it 25 and tell us something that we may not know, and I can
1561 move on. 2 A: I can't tell you anything. 3 Q: All right. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now 5 been fifteen (15) minutes since you've -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- said 8 you'd be fifteen (15) minutes, Mr. Falconer. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Now -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 11 to remind you about that, Mr. Falconer. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 15 Q: At page 30, the next page... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: I just want to see if this refreshes 20 your memory at all about Wade Jacklin, July 30th, 1995, 21 15:55, Carson. Do you see that entry? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "PC WADE JACKLIN: Nine (9) members 24 available plus two (2) on patrol Grand 25 Bend."
1571 A: Yes. 2 Q: Is that consistent with your memory 3 about Jacklin's role to brief Carson on ERT members? 4 A: I don't know what his whole role was, 5 sir. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I was not part of any of the ERT 8 details. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've heard 11 that already. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I just wanted to 13 know if that passage helped him. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: If you could flip to the top left- 19 hand corner of 4146 of the operational minutes that are 20 at Tab 34, so the next page? 21 A: Yes? 22 Q: Do you have that? Would you go to 23 the bottom of the page, please, second to last paragraph? 24 "Crime - Randy -- okay, except for -- 25 from Number 6 District, name of officer
1581 to identify Natives as they're brought 2 in. Rob Huntley can assist you." 3 Do you see that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'm five (5) pages in now, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page? 8 Oh, there it is, I've got it now. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4146? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I've 11 got it. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: So see that? 13 "Crime, Randy -- okay, except for 14 Number 6 District, name of officer to 15 identify Natives as they're brought in. 16 Rob Huntley can assist you." 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Who -- do you recall who Rob Huntley 19 is? 20 A: Rob Huntley is a member of the 6 21 District ERT Unit, I believe. 22 Q: All right. And so do you recall it's 23 consistent with your memory that he had a role in 24 identifying occupiers and being on ERT? 25 A: His -- his role, as far as I can
1591 remember, sir, was if Natives from up where he worked 2 came down and were part of it -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- he was to identify them because 5 they weren't familiar to any of us. 6 A: Okay. Would you agree with me, and I 7 am -- I'm getting -- I'm finishing, Mr. Commissioner. 8 Would you agree with me, Officer, that -- that when we 9 talked about neutral -- I -- I said -- I used the word 10 'neutral' or 'objective' neutral policing that -- 11 remember I talked to you about this notion of being 12 objective, that way when you decide if something's a 13 hunch or a suspicion or it's reasonable probable grounds 14 you do it with credibility, right; that's important? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Because the police -- you know this, 17 right, it's not just about being fair, the police have to 18 be perceived to be fair, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. So, for example, you didn't 21 see your role as to -- to encourage someone to get an 22 injunction, right; that wasn't your role? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Nor was it the OPP's role to seek an 25 injunction so they could, for example, get criminal
1601 charges against occupiers; that wasn't their job either, 2 was it? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. Because to do that would mean 5 that they had an agenda, right? 6 That would be wrong, right? 7 Well, let me back up. Let me put it to 8 you this way. 9 And I'm putting it in the broadest of 10 terms, but let me give you a classic example: A -- a 11 police officer can pull over a car for a broken tail 12 light, right, and -- and he can be acting completely 13 within the bounds of the law and come up to a driver 14 who's an African Canadian and say to that driver, Can I 15 see your papers, right? 16 And the officer can be acting completely 17 properly because he saw a broken tail light and he has a 18 right to ask for insurance papers, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And then, on the other hand, 21 that -- that's one (1) police officer acting completely 22 properly and neutrally, right? He's got a job to do. It 23 doesn't matter what colour your skin is, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, that same situation can happen,
1611 an officer can pull over somebody with a broken tail 2 light, an African Canadian person at the wheel, or an 3 Aboriginal person at the wheel, and that officer, for -- 4 for very unfortunate reasons, may have biases and may 5 have pulled that person over because they saw that person 6 was of colour. That would be wrong, wouldn't it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And yet the actions by the officer 9 would be completely identical in those two (2) instances, 10 wouldn't they? They'd be pulling somebody over for a 11 broken tail light; one (1) would be no agenda, but the 12 other would be an agenda, would you agree? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: It would depend on the officer, sir. 17 Q: Sure, but what I'm saying to you is, 18 the actions of the officers, in the two (2) examples I 19 gave you, would be identical. 20 In both cases, the officer was simply 21 pulling someone over for a broken tail light, and simply 22 asking the person for their insurance papers, right? 23 A: And he -- and he has an agenda. 24 Q: On the second example, not the first, 25 right?
1621 A: No, the first has an agenda, too. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: To see -- to see who it is and to 4 tell him to get his tail light fixed. 5 Q: But it's a proper agenda. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the second example is an improper 8 agenda? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. The reason I ask you that is 11 that that's why neutral policing and being seen to be 12 fair is so important, because it's very hard to tell 13 what's motivating someone as a police officer when you 14 pull over people; isn't that right? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now that's 16 for your argument. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fair enough. 18 Let me go on. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've asked 20 enough questions -- 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no, no -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- on this 23 matter. You said you were finished -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no, no. I'm -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It doesn't
1631 seem -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- closing. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- like you 4 are. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am. I'm closing. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: Could you please read out, on the 10 same page we were one, the second paragraph on the page 11 that's 4146 of Exhibit P-421, that fifth page we were 12 just on. 13 Do you see that paragraph, it starts with: 14 "The reason..." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What does it say? 17 A: "The reason we are getting the 18 injunction, as it gives us all the 19 Criminal Code charges. MNR is 20 literally prepared to go into Court at 21 a minute's notice. MNR has clear 22 title." 23 Q: "The reason we are getting the 24 injunction, as it gives us all the 25 Criminal Code charges."
1641 Now, I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 2 that I asked you, not two (2) minutes ago, would you 3 agree with me that it would be an improper reason to get 4 an injunction as a means for laying Criminal Code 5 charges. 6 You agreed with me, didn't you? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I think you're taking things out of 11 context here. 12 Q: Fair enough. 13 A: I mean... 14 Q: "Cause you'd agree with me that it 15 would be improper if you were seeking an injunction in 16 order to give you an access to criminal charges; that 17 would be improper? 18 A: There's -- 19 Q: That's why you say, I take it out of 20 context. 21 A: There's access to criminal charges 22 anyway, sir. 23 Q: No, but the sentence that you were 24 instructed on is as follows, quote: 25 "The reason we are getting the
1651 injunction, as it gives us all the 2 Criminal Code charges." 3 Close quotes. 4 And the reason you say I am taking it out 5 of context is, on it's face, it would be improper to seek 6 an injunction, as an OPP officer, simply to get access to 7 Criminal Code charges. 8 That would be improper -- 9 A: Well you have -- there's criminal 10 charges available to us without the injunction. 11 Q: Fair enough. 12 A: The injunction just -- 13 Q: Please -- please focus on my 14 question. The question I had for you is: It would be 15 improper to seek to get an injunction as a means to lay 16 Criminal Code charges, right? 17 A: And I don't believe that's the reason 18 they got the injunction. 19 Q: Sir, I'm now asking you to answer my 20 question. It would be improper to use an injunction to 21 try to get Criminal Code charges? 22 A: If that's for the sole reason to get 23 the injunction, yes. 24 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1661 Mr. Falconer. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 6 to see where we are now. 7 Do you have any examination, Mr. 8 Alexander? 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I think I was 10 switching with -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 12 into -- 13 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I am -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 15 going to ask everybody. How long do you expect you may 16 be Ms. Esmonde? 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I had estimated an 18 hour. I think I'll be somewhat less than that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Somewhat 20 less -- 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- than an 23 hour? And Mr. -- yes? 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Scullion. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry.
1671 Yes, Mr. Scullion? 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: The estimate was 3 ninety (90) minutes. I'll probably be about half of 4 that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About half 6 of that. 7 And Mr. George...? 8 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: I estimated half an 9 hour and ten (10) minutes, tops. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 11 Alexander...? 12 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I estimated half an 13 hour. As of now I have no questions but -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 15 have any questions now? 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: As of now, no, but 17 I'm waiting to see what happens -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 And you still don't want to make an 20 estimate until you see where we are at the end of it all, 21 is that fair Mr. Roland? 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 24 it looks like we'll finish easily this afternoon. And 25 this would be a good time to take a break; is that all
1681 right? 2 Just trying to figure out where we are, 3 get the lay of the land. Thank you all very much. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until two o'clock. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 12:55 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 2:02 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 afternoon. 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good afternoon. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Detective Sergeant. 18 My name is Jackie Esmonde and I'm going to be asking you 19 some questions on behalf of the Aazhoodena and George 20 Family Group. 21 And I'd like to begin by asking you some 22 questions regarding the shed on the rifle range and the 23 incident that occurred there in 1993. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: If you need your notes, the date of
1691 that is August 16th, 1993, beginning at page 44. For the 2 record that's P-1160, Inquiry Document Number 2005479 at 3 Tab 3. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 5 what tab was that again? 6 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Tab 3. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 3, thank 8 you. Yes, I've got it. 9 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: It will be at your 10 page 8, Commissioner. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 13 Q: Now you were asked some questions 14 about this incident already. In your notes you identify 15 a Kevin, and you subsequently learned that was Kevin 16 Simon? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And when did you learn that was Kevin 19 Simon? 20 A: Probably it was that night. 21 Q: Okay. Now, of course, you were not 22 present for the incident that occurred early in the 23 morning on August 16th, 1993 when the military approached 24 the shed on the rifle range? 25 A: No.
1701 Q: The information you've recorded in 2 your notebook was received from Sergeant Doug McGuire? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: But you understood that it happened 5 in the early morning while it was still dark? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that Kevin Simon was residing in 8 an unused shed on the rifle range? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I take it you never interviewed 11 Kevin Simon personally about what happened that morning. 12 A: No. 13 Q: You became aware that the military 14 seized specific items of property from the shed, 15 including a fridge? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: A stove? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: A couch? 20 A: I believe there was a couch; fridge, 21 stove, couch, yes. 22 Q: Now the military initially told you 23 that they were seizing these items as found property? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what does that mean?
1711 A: It means they found it, they're not 2 putting anybody as the owner. 3 Q: Okay. But you understood that that 4 property belonged to Kevin Simon? 5 A: Yes. And when exactly I became aware 6 of that, that night, I -- I can't tell you. 7 Q: Now Captain Prentice later told you 8 that they were keeping the property -- sorry, that the 9 military was keeping the property as evidence in the 10 arson. Do you recall that? 11 A: He told me he was keeping it as 12 evidence, if it was evidence from the arson, I'd have to 13 look. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I believe if you look at page 49 of 18 your notes, which is page 13 of the tab. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You see there's an entry at 19:00 21 where you've recorded that -- that the Military had 22 seized and was holding it for evidence in the arson? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you understood that that 25 property would have had no value as evidence into the
1721 arson of the shed; is that right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you conveyed that opinion to 4 Captain Prentice? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: But he still refused to return the 7 property? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it you would have felt 10 that was an unreasonable position? 11 A: I thought he was just making a point. 12 He did agree to eventually turn it -- return it to him. 13 Q: Okay. You did say that in your -- in 14 your direct testimony. I didn't see a record of that in 15 your notes here. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Oh, it just says: 20 "Captain Prentice would not give it 21 back yet." 22 But I spoke to him and the Sergeant there 23 and they both eventually agreed that it would be going 24 back to them. 25 Q: And did you learn that the property
1731 was, in fact, not returned? 2 A: No. 3 Q: I take it you were not aware that 4 when the Stoney Pointers took over the built-up area in 5 July 1995, that that property was still in the built-up 6 area and had not been returned? 7 A: I wasn't aware of that. 8 Q: You were not aware of that? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now you were asked some questions 11 about the origin of the fire in the shed on the rifle 12 range, and you hypothesized that it was the Stoney 13 Pointers that, in fact, started the fire? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, certainly in your notes, you've 16 recorded various pieces of evidence that would support a 17 conclusion that the burning of the building was an arson, 18 for example, the fact that there was no electricity in 19 the building? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: That the stove was not hooked up. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That there was nothing in the 24 building to accidentally start a fire? 25 A: Correct.
1741 Q: But you have no evidence you can 2 point to that would directly tie any of the Stoney 3 Pointers with setting that building on fire, correct? 4 A: Well, that was my opinion, given all 5 the circumstances. 6 Q: Did you consider the possibility that 7 the building was burned by the military personnel as 8 retaliation against the Stoney Pointers? 9 A: I did not. 10 Q: You were aware, I take it, at that 11 time, that there were certain people in the community who 12 believed that the OPP was not enforcing the law as 13 against First Nations people? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Were you not also aware that the 16 First Nations people, including the Stoney Pointers, 17 believed that the OPP was not enforcing the law against 18 the military, for example, who were committing offences 19 against them? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Now, further on in your notebook at 22 page 29... 23 A: Further on? 24 Q: I'm just trying to identify the date 25 here. It's page 17 of the Commission's binder, your page
1751 29. It's page 29 of book 2. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Your notes here reflect an 6 investigation that you undertook regarding some damage to 7 various buildings on the camp -- former Camp Ipperwash? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And on page 29 you've recorded that 10 you received information regarding a red Nissan that was 11 seen leaving from the fenced in area of the grenade 12 range? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You see that? Now, at -- at this 15 time, there were Stoney Pointers that were living at the 16 base, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And they had their vehicles -- there 19 were a number of vehicles on the Base? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Stoney Pointers were known to 22 drive their vehicles around the property of the Base? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your informant from the Military 25 Police did not identify to you when they saw this red
1761 Nissan leaving the grenade range; correct? 2 A: What time it was? 3 Q: Correct. 4 A: I don't believe so. 5 Q: And they did not advise you whether 6 there was any link in time between the damage that was 7 caused and the sighting of this vehicle? 8 A: I don't know when they saw it. 9 Q: And they didn't provide you with a 10 licence number? 11 A: No, they did not. 12 Q: And the only description of the 13 people in the vehicle was that there were three (3) male 14 Indians in the vehicle? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And yet you guessed that it was Kevin 17 Simon who was driving the vehicle? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: No, I said probably. It doesn't say 22 he was. 23 Q: That's right I said you guessed? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It was a guess, correct?
1771 A: Well, it was -- it was a probability. 2 Q: This was a situation where, like many 3 others that you've described, where no charges could be 4 laid because no identification could be made correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And you didn't have any evidence 7 linking that car and the occupants of that vehicle with 8 the damage that was caused? 9 A: I can't say the occupants did it. I 10 never saw them and nobody else saw them. 11 Q: Now, the Stoney Pointers also asked 12 for your -- asked for your assistance in investigating a 13 tire slashing incident. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: That was, I believe, the 28th of 16 June, 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you've described you had 19 difficulty in carrying out that investigation because 20 there were objects that were stuck into the puncture 21 holes -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- of the tires? Now, you understood 24 that the reason that those items were placed in the holes 25 was to assist you, to show you where the holes were;
1781 right? 2 A: I assume that. 3 Q: And it wasn't done intentionally to 4 destroy any forensic evidence? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: You didn't have that understanding? 7 A: I didn't -- certainly nobody ever 8 told me they did that. 9 Q: Okay, but you didn't -- that's not 10 what you believed when you saw those items stuck in the 11 holes, correct? 12 A: Well, I thought they were maybe put 13 in there to show me where damage was. I don't know. 14 Q: That's right. Now, I understand from 15 your notes as well that you received information from a 16 repair shop that the ATV tires that were slashed had been 17 slashed by a knife? 18 A: I don't know that he said a knife. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: If you show me where it says that in 21 my notes? 22 A: Certainly. I'm looking in your notes 23 for Thursday, June 29th, 1995, at page 61. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1791 Q: Sorry, page 60. It begins on page 2 59. This is book 8. It's page -- page 60 of the 3 Commissioner's Tab 3. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 5 same number. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 8 Q: You'll see at the bottom it says: 9 "Checked at John's Tire on 21 Highway 10 and they advised it appeared the four 11 (4) ATV tires brought in by Stoney 12 Point all had puncture marks and they - 13 - that -- that appear to have been 14 caused by a knife." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you were taken, as well, to a 17 notation you had made on an occurrence report where you 18 suggested that the Stoney Pointers caused the damaged 19 themselves? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And in your direct evidence you said 22 you weren't sure why had written that. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Because you don't believe today that 25 they caused that damage themselves, right?
1801 A: I don't know who caused that damage. 2 Q: But that's not my question. 3 A: I questioned the military people that 4 were out that night. They all denied any involvement in 5 it. I did conduct an investigation. There were no 6 witnesses to the event and I questioned the military 7 people that were out that night and nobody would admit to 8 anything. So I did do an investigation. 9 Q: No. Thank you for that but my 10 question was -- 11 A: Well, you're trying to tell me I 12 didn't do an investigation when I did. 13 Q: Sir, I'm not trying to tell you 14 anything. I'm asking you some questions and my question 15 was: Do you believe today that the Stoney Pointers 16 punctured those tires themselves? 17 A: I don't know who punctured the tires. 18 Q: You would agree with me that if the 19 Stoney Pointers had punctured the tires themselves in 20 order to implicate the Military and some wrong doing, it 21 would be strange for them to take them to a repair shop 22 to be repaired before showing them to you? 23 A: I can't comment on what somebody else 24 would do. 25 Q: Do I understand your comment that you
1811 made in your direct examination that you don't know why 2 you wrote down in your notes that you thought they had 3 damaged it themselves? Do I understand from that that -- 4 A: I have no reason -- 5 Q: -- you have no -- 6 A: -- to believe that they did it 7 themselves. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. Could you please 9 turn to Tab 53 of your book. This is an affidavit for 10 the Court of Appeal of Ontario and Her Majesty the Queen 11 and Kenneth Deane. It's marked as P-1164 and it's 12 Inquiry Document 2005349. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You were asked some questions about 15 this affidavit in your direct examination. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: This is where you report the citing 18 of Dudley George with a gun. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And am I right that the first time 21 that this incident is written down by you or is put in 22 writing by you is this affidavit and the report that 23 accompanies it as an -- as an exhibit? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it was signed -- this affidavit
1821 was signed and sworn by you on August the 4th of 1998? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And this was after the conviction of 4 Kenneth Deane? 5 A: I don't know. It must have been, 6 yes. It had to have been. 7 Q: Right. And it was for the purposes 8 of a motion to include fresh evidence at his appeal? 9 A: I don't know what it was in regards 10 to. I was asked about this and I gave it. 11 Q: Okay. If you look at paragraph 11, 12 it says: 13 "I make this affidavit in connection 14 with an application to admit fresh 15 evidence and for no other purpose." 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: So you'd agree with me that's -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- that was the purpose? 20 A: Yes, I -- I agree. 21 Q: And you initially did -- initially 22 did not include this incident in your notebook because 23 you didn't attach any particular significance to having 24 seen Dudley George with a gun on that day? 25 A: To Dudley? Yes, I was a little
1831 surprised to see one in Dudley's hand because I had never 2 seen him with one before. 3 Q: Right and you never saw him with one 4 after that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: But it wasn't of such a significance 7 that you thought you should record it in your notes? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Right. And would it be fair to say 10 that you concluded, based on what you saw on that day, 11 that Dudley George and those with him were probably going 12 hunting? 13 A: I don't know about hunting. They 14 certainly lived in a trailer and a white car; that's the 15 last I knew of where they went. 16 Q: Thank you. Well, you said that you 17 then drove down Army Camp Road and you parked at the end 18 of the road, right? 19 A: Yes, but I didn't see the vehicle 20 again. 21 Q: That's right. So you didn't draw any 22 conclusion about what -- where they were going or what 23 they were doing? 24 A: No. They -- it's not unusual to see 25 people in there with firearms. I don't know what they
1841 were doing. 2 Q: And is it fair to say you didn't turn 3 your mind to this incident again until after Kenneth 4 Deane was convicted? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And it was when you were approached 7 by Brian Byatt? 8 A: Yes I believe it was Brian Byatt. 9 Q: And who is Brian Byatt? 10 A: He's an ex-police officer. I assume 11 he was acting as a private investigator or something 12 then. 13 Q: And -- and so what happened? He came 14 to visit you and said can you remember any time that you 15 saw Dudley George with a gun? 16 A: I don't remember his exact words, but 17 I remember him coming to me and asking me something about 18 it. I don't remember his exact words. 19 Q: Okay. I don't need his exact words 20 but, in general, what -- when he came to you, what did he 21 say he was doing? 22 A: He must have asked -- he had to have 23 asked me if I ever saw Dudley with a gun, and that was 24 the one (1) and only time. 25 Q: And did he have with him a statement
1851 from PC Dan Rowbotham to help to refresh your memory? 2 A: I don't recall one from Dan 3 Rowbotham. 4 Q: Did he tell you that Dan Rowbotham 5 had told him about this -- the incident when he had seen 6 Dudley George and tried to refresh your memory? 7 A: I don't recall. I don't recall. I 8 pointed Dudley out to Dan Rowbotham that day -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- because Dan Rowbotham wasn't 11 familiar with him. When we were coming back -- I 12 remember it exactly because we were coming back from 13 Grand Bend from an occurrence there and I saw the guys 14 standing out in front with camouflage clothing on. 15 Q: Yeah. No, I understand. We have 16 your evidence on what you saw. What I'm trying to 17 understand is how it is that you came to provide this 18 information to ex-police officer Brian Byatt. 19 A: He came and asked me about it. 20 Q: He came and asked you and that's when 21 you remembered that incident, without any refreshing? 22 A: That incident is very close and I 23 remember it. 24 Q: Now, Mr. Falconer was asking you some 25 questions about your role as an investigator and you --
1861 you have taken pains throughout your testimony to draw a 2 distinction between an intelligence officer and an 3 investigator, correct? 4 A: Go ahead. 5 Q: And I gather from what you've said 6 that the difference would be that as an investigator your 7 role would be to gather as much information as you could? 8 A: I was assigned to investigate 9 occurrences inside the Army Camp. 10 Q: And you would provide that 11 information to the Intelligence Branch or an intelligence 12 officer who would analyse that information? 13 A: I don't know what the intelligence 14 officer did with it. When I gath -- when I got the 15 information I certainly passed it on. 16 Q: Okay. And you understood that they 17 would be doing something with that information to try and 18 verify its reliability? 19 A: I don't know what they did with the 20 information. It was raw information to me. 21 Q: So you're -- you gathered raw 22 information and you passed that up? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you understood that the 25 intelligence officers would do something with it, but you
1871 don't know what that was? 2 A: I'm not part of the intelligence 3 community. 4 Q: But you understood at some point 5 somebody would have to assess that information and 6 determine its reliability? 7 A: I would think so. 8 Q: That's right. And so in passing that 9 information up, it would be important for you to record 10 your source of information? 11 A: I don't know if I always recorded my 12 source of the information. 13 Q: Well, whether you did or you didn't, 14 my question was more general than that. It was: For 15 somebody to assess the reliability of information you 16 were providing, it would be important for them to know 17 the source? 18 A: No, because if it was a confidential 19 informant I would not give him the source, other than a 20 confidential informant. That -- 21 Q: Do I understand you may not provide 22 them with the name of a confidential informant but you 23 could -- you would tell them that it came from a 24 confidential informant -- 25 A: Yes.
1881 Q: -- who you had reason to believe? 2 A: I don't know if I'd use those words, 3 you know. 4 Q: Okay. What words would you use? 5 A: Well, I received information from a 6 confidential informant, period. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, you've told us about information 12 that you received from Don Matheson on September 2nd, 13 1995? 14 A: Probably. 15 Q: I'm not sure which one (1) of your 16 books that is, but -- 17 A: Well -- 18 Q: -- you have a handwritten recording 19 on the 2nd of September, 1995 which I have noted as front 20 number 2005479 at Tab 3? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Commissioner, it's page 109. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 109, thank
1891 you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 4 Q: It's in your book 9, do you have it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It's page 26 of your notebook. And 7 you went through the other day, and we don't need to go 8 through it in detail, but you had received some 9 information from Don Matheson, yourself, and Staff 10 Sergeant Bouwman? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: With respect to the people in Camp 13 Ipperwash having AK-47's, handguns -- sorry, AK-47's, 9 14 mm handguns and rocket or grenade launchers. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, Don Matheson himself was not the 17 direct witness. 18 A: No. 19 Q: He'd received this information from 20 two (2) unnamed MNR officers? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Who had themselves received it from 23 Anthony Rogers? 24 A: He received it from somebody. 25 Q: I believe in your notes it says that
1901 they were talking to XXXX XXXX? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps I can simply 6 point out, Commissioner, that, and I want to caution My 7 Friend that we are attempting to exercise some caution 8 insofar as providing certain names. 9 Some of these people will not be called as 10 witnesses and it would be our -- it has been our practice 11 to avoid mentioning their names on the public record. 12 So I'd ask My Friend to keep that in mind. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it is -- 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes, I'm sorry. I 15 didn't realize that was one of the -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- redacted names. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I -- my apologies. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 22 Q: Okay. Well, going through without 23 mentioning the names. Don Matheson had heard from two 24 (2) MNR officers who had themselves heard from someone 25 else.
1911 Have I got the string of information 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And the source whose name I 5 don't wish to say on the record, did you know that 6 person? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You did know that person? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And how did you know them? 11 A: From working in the area. 12 Q: When you say that you knew them, had 13 you had conversations with him? 14 A: In the past? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: How many times? 18 A: Many. 19 Q: Sorry, many? 20 A: Many. 21 Q: Okay. And you didn't infor -- 22 receive this information from him directly? 23 A: I did not. 24 Q: By the time it got to you, through 25 Don Matheson, it was double or triple hearsay, correct?
1921 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you very forthrightly said on the 3 record that you doubted whether there were rocket or 4 grenade launchers -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- held by the Stoney Pointers? So 7 you had -- yourself had some concerns about the 8 reliability of the information. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, you didn't include in your note 11 any of the concerns you may have had about the 12 reliability of this information. 13 Do you know if those doubts were passed on 14 to Inspector Carson? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: I note that you -- it was Sergeant -- 17 Staff Sergeant Bouwman who made the report to Inspector 18 Carson, correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It wasn't you directly? 21 A: Probably -- no, it probably would 22 have been Bouwman. 23 Q: Okay. And did you have any 24 discussion with Staff Sergeant Bouwman about your 25 concerns about the reliability of the information?
1931 A: No. 2 Q: You did not tell him? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you know if he, himself, had any 5 doubts about the reliability of that information that he 6 stated to you? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: It would have been important, don't 9 you think, if this type of information was being passed 10 up to the Incident Commander for him to know, that there 11 were some doubts about the reliability of the 12 information? 13 A: I don't know what was done with that 14 information. 15 Q: Okay. My question, though, was it 16 would be important for the incident commander, who was 17 receiving information of this nature, to know that there 18 were some doubts about its reliability? 19 A: There was some doubt in my mind. 20 Q: That there was some doubt in your 21 mind about the reliability of the information; that would 22 be important information for Inspector Carson to have? 23 A: Probably. 24 Q: Now, your -- in your experience 25 policing in the area over the years, you had occasion to
1941 identify several people who were potential spokespersons 2 within -- amongst the Stoney Pointers? 3 A: I don't know what you mean by that. 4 Q: Okay. You -- you had yourself 5 engaged in conversations with Glenn George who was acting 6 as a spokesperson for the people -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- for the Stoney Pointers? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And I believe you also mentioned the 13 other day that you were aware that Roderick George was 14 occasionally a spokesperson for the Stoney Pointers. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, on September 4th when -- you 17 were present when the Stoney Pointers moved into the -- 18 sorry, you were present at the Park after the Stoney 19 Pointers had moved into the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you spoke directly with Glenn 22 George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you personally told him that 25 there was a warrant for his arrest?
1951 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you also personally swore in 3 information for an arrest warrant for Roderick George on 4 September 5th? 5 A: Probably. Without checking it I 6 probably did for the mischief. 7 Q: Okay. I believe we -- we do have a 8 copy of that sworn information with your name on it. 9 A: That's fine. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I don't doubt it. 12 Q: And as of the end of the day on the 13 5th of September 1995 there were arrest warrants for 14 Glenn George, Roderick George, David George and Stewart 15 George. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And were you aware of an OPP press 18 release that went out on September 5th advising that 19 there arrest warrants for Roderick George, David George 20 and Stewart George? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: Okay. I -- I have a copy of it if 23 that helps to refresh your memory. 24 A: I don't know whether I would have 25 read it even.
1961 Q: Okay. Well, I'll just show it to you 2 and we'll see if it assists. 3 A: All right. 4 Q: This is P-431 in this proceeding, 5 Document Number 1009039. I have a copy for the Witness 6 and for Mr. Commissioner. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And you'll see it's an OPP press 11 release September 5th, 1995 at 17:25 hours. 12 A: I did not see this. 13 Q: You did not see that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you remember if you heard any 16 reports on the radio or on the television or in the news 17 media advising that there were arrest warrants for three 18 (3) of the individuals who were in the Park? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Were you -- were you consulted in 21 advance about the fact that this information would be 22 broadcast in a press release? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Were you aware that the people who 25 had reclaimed the Park were concerned that any person
1971 identified amongst them as a spokesperson would risk 2 arrest? 3 A: Was I aware of that? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you, at the time, consider the 7 possibility that advertising that there were arrest 8 warrants for people on the Park would make it less likely 9 that that persons would come forward to talk to the 10 police? 11 A: I didn't know about it. 12 Q: Did you turn your mind to that as an 13 issue before you spoke with Glenn George? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Now, you told us that you were called 16 back to work on the evening of September 6th, 1995 and 17 your notes record that that was at 22:30 hours. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you were called back in order to 20 commence an investigation of the incident involved Gerald 21 George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, can you recall who called you 24 back? 25 A: No. Just a minute please.
1981 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't recall who called me back. 4 It would have been a phone call at my residence. 5 Q: Okay. And you immediately went to 6 the Forest Detachment? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you go into the Forest Detachment 9 or did you go into the mobile command unit? 10 A: I didn't go into the mobile command 11 unit. 12 Q: So when you went -- 13 A: I may have been in the crime trailer 14 which was out back. I know I was in the Detachment at 15 one point, but I don't recall whether I went into the 16 crime trailer first or into the Detachment first. 17 Q: Okay. You did receive a copy of Sam 18 Poole's report? 19 A: I think I received just a copy of his 20 statement from -- that Sam Poole took. 21 Q: That's right. That's -- that's more 22 a correct way of putting it. You received the report 23 that Sam Poole had -- had written out of the statement of 24 Gerald George? 25 A: Yes.
1991 Q: And you received that immediately 2 upon arriving at the Forest Detachment? 3 A: I can't say exactly when I got it. 4 Q: Okay. And you can't recall if you 5 received it in the Forest Detachment or in the crime 6 trailer? 7 A: No. 8 Q: But it was there when you arrived? 9 A: Well, I -- I had it because I had to 10 have written out a report on it. 11 Q: Okay. And you know that you would 12 have received it shortly after arriving at the 13 detachment? 14 A: It wouldn't have been very long. 15 Q: Within minutes? 16 A: I don't know. 17 Q: Okay. Less than twenty (20) minutes? 18 A: You're asking me to guess. I don't 19 know. 20 Q: Okay. Well, I don't want you to 21 guess, if you know you can answer -- 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: -- if you don't know you say you 24 don't know. 25 A: I don't know.
2001 Q: Okay. Sam Poole was there when you 2 arrived? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: You saw Sam Poole while you were 5 there? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: I believe you testified that if you 8 would have talked to anybody at the detachment about this 9 incident it would have been with Sam Poole? 10 A: The -- the statement could have just 11 been left for me. 12 Q: Okay. What I'm trying to determine 13 is if that meant that Sam Poole was there and you're 14 telling me you just don't remember if he was there or 15 not. 16 A: I don't -- I don't -- I'm sorry, I 17 don't remember if Sam Poole was there or not. It was 18 just putting in an occurrence. 19 Q: And you don't remember who gave you 20 the -- the statement? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now, Mr. Falconer asked you some 23 questions about what happened at Strathroy Hospital and I 24 don't want to go over what he covered by I'm interested 25 in a slightly different aspect of that.
2011 Now, you've explained that you had 2 instructions to ensure that the occupants of the white 3 car were arrested? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Did you give any thought to the fact 6 that the medical personnel at the hospital -- hospital -- 7 sorry, the hospital may wish to speak with the occupants 8 of the vehicle to get information about the condition 9 that Dudley George was in or how he came to be in that 10 condition? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You said that the doctor was angry? 13 You said that -- 14 A: Dr. Marr. 15 Q: That was Dr. Marr? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And was she -- she was angry because 18 the police operation at the hospital was interfering with 19 her ability to treat the patients? 20 A: I -- I don't know. 21 Q: You don't know? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Well, why did you believe she 24 was angry? 25 A: She just -- from the expression on
2021 her. 2 Q: The expression on her face? 3 A: She just looked mad. I think she 4 even sounded mad when she spoke. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I think this was -- I don't -- you 7 know, I can't say exactly what made her angry. 8 Q: Okay. Did you have the impression 9 that she was angry with the OPP? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Was she looking -- was she attempting 12 to find the occupants of the vehicle to get information 13 from them? Did you observe her trying to do that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Now, we know from evidence earlier in 16 this Inquiry that somebody telephoned Mark Wright at the 17 Command Post to tell him that Dudley George had died were 18 -- were you the person who made that phone call? 19 A: I don't recall making it. 20 Q: Okay. You don't recall making it 21 personally? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you have any knowledge of whether 24 anybody else made that phone call? 25 A: I don't know who made it.
2031 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. 2 Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Ms. Esmonde. 5 Mr. Scullion...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Good afternoon, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Staff Sergeant Speck. 16 My name is Kevin Scullion and I'm one (1) of counsel for 17 the Residents of Aazhoodena. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: I take it from your examination-in- 20 chief and the evidence you've given on cross-examination 21 that you were familiar with the people in the area, both 22 Kettle Point and Stoney Point and others, well before you 23 were appointed to investigate any criminal activity on 24 the Army Camp? 25 A: Yes.
2041 Q: Is that fair? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And you were familiar 4 with the individuals through personal activities as well; 5 that you I think alluded to in your examination-in-chief 6 that you dealt with some of the families? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And if I could just ask you 9 very quickly about the warrant; there's been some 10 questions about a warrant for Glenn George. Do you 11 remember that -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- line of questioning? That 14 warrant, and correct me if I'm wrong, came about as a 15 result of a charge that was laid back in July -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- of 1995, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And he had a first appearance and he 20 was released with a promise to appear on August 14th, 21 1995, correct? 22 A: I don't recall the terms of the 23 release, but he was released, yes. 24 Q: Right. On the basis that he was to 25 turn back up for Court on August the 14th --
2051 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- for the trial? And he didn't turn 3 up, correct? 4 A: That's what the warrant was for. 5 Q: Okay. Now was the warrant a bench 6 warrant, issued when he didn't turn up for Court that 7 day? 8 A: It would have to be, sir. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: It would have to be a bench warrant. 11 Q: Do you recall if it was a bench 12 warrant with discretion, or not? 13 A: I don't recall, sir. 14 Q: All right. You know the difference 15 between the two (2)? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: One with discretion is: If he turns 18 up for his next Court date, then they usually rescind the 19 warrant because he has a chance to explain what happened 20 that day. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: But if it's without discretion, 23 you're directed to arrest upon sight. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Do you -- does that
2061 assist, in any way, whether or not you were to arrest 2 upon sight of Glenn George? 3 A: I don't recall if it was a warrant 4 with discretion or just a straight bench warrant. 5 Q: All right. We take it from your 6 activity on September 4th, when you did see Glenn George 7 and advised him that there was a warrant for his arrest, 8 that it was most likely discretionary in nature. 9 A: On September the 4th? 10 Q: The 4th. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I don't think I was going to step out 15 and arrest him there. You're talking about in the Park? 16 Q: That's when you saw him on September 17 4th, correct? 18 A: Yes, in the Park. 19 Q: Okay. So that doesn't help you, but 20 you indicate that the fact that he wasn't alone and there 21 was a confrontation of some sort, certainly prevented you 22 from doing it? 23 A: Well, it would -- yeah, there was. 24 There was a confrontation there -- 25 Q: Wasn't a good idea --
2071 A: -- of sorts. Pardon? 2 Q: It wasn't a good idea, at that point 3 in time? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 6 Sergeant Wright asked you for that warrant in the course 7 of September 5th or September the 6th? 8 A: I don't believe he did. It would 9 have been on file; I wouldn't have had it in my 10 possession. 11 It would have been on file at the 12 Detachment. 13 Q: Right. When you say it would have 14 been on file, it would have been available for anybody 15 who was presented with the opportunity to arrest Glenn 16 George, to do that -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- in accordance with the warrant. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, if I can take you back to my 25 original questions about knowing these people before you
2081 were assigned to investigate criminal activity on the 2 camp, I take it you weren't very surprised when they 3 moved onto the camp in 1993? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I don't think I was shocked or 8 anything. 9 Q: Right. Right. There was a level of 10 -- a lot of frustration expressed in the community at the 11 fact that this land hadn't been returned, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You were aware of that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And that was expressed to 16 you personally and you were also aware of it generally, 17 in the community? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. You also know individuals 20 such as Clifford George. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you knew Dudley George 23 personally? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay.
2091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And in the course of your activities, 4 in investigating any activity on -- or incidents on the 5 camp, you came into contact fairly often with the 6 military as well, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Were you aware that they had an 9 Operation Maple for dealing with this occupation that was 10 occurring, of the camp? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Just so it's clear, I 15 think My Friend is referring to a military Operation 16 Maple; when he says "they" I think that's what he's 17 referring to. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I asked specifically 19 about the military. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 21 the military if -- 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- they had-- 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If they had an 25 Operation --
2101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- an 2 operation -- 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- Maple -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- called 5 Operation Maple. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- to deal with this 7 occupation that was occurring in '93,'94 and '95. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 11 Q: You weren't aware that it was called 12 Operation Maple? 13 A: Not with the military. 14 Q: All right. Which leads to the next 15 question, which is: Did you know of an Operation Maple-- 16 A: The OPP had an Operation Maple. I 17 wasn't part of making it up or anything. 18 Q: Let me be clear. It's Operation 19 Maple for 1993,'94 and '95, as distinct from what we've 20 heard as Project Maple that dealt with the occupation of 21 the Provincial Park. 22 A: No, I only know Project Maple, sir, 23 not Operation Maple. 24 Q: You're talking Operation Maple -- 25 A: Project Maple. For -- for the Park,
2111 I'm talking. 2 Q: All right. You're talking about the 3 Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And there's no separate OPP Operation 6 Maple for the year 1993, '94, '95? At least to the 7 extent it's called Operation Maple? 8 A: Not that I'm aware of. 9 Q: All right. Now you had testified 10 that, I think it was Commander Howse -- 11 A: Captain Howse? 12 Q: Is it Ca -- Captain Howse, with the 13 military, that when he came in to the Army Camp area and 14 assumed command, that the dynamics changed somewhat; is 15 that fair? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And he was more 18 antagonistic, I think was your term, towards the 19 occupiers? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that led to some of the 22 difficulties? 23 A: I believe it did. 24 Q: Right. Would you describe it as a 25 more in your face approach by Captain Howse as opposed to
2121 his predecessor Captain Smith? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. You also dealt with Glenn 4 George at times, and I think we've referred to a number 5 of incidents, but you were aware that -- of Glenn 6 George's presence before he assumed what you've termed 7 the role of spokesperson for those occupying the Camp? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. You were familiar with 10 him before and after this, as you referred to it, 11 transition to a spokesperson role, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Did he ever explain to you, in 14 -- in what I understand were a number of conversations, 15 that he wasn't volunteering to be a spokesman for the 16 group, it just turned out that way? 17 A: I don't recall him expressing it that 18 way, sir. 19 Q: Right. Was that your impression, 20 that he wasn't actively seeking the job of being 21 spokesperson? 22 A: I don't know whether he was actively 23 seeking it or not. It turned out that way. 24 Q: All right. And it was for a fairly 25 short period of time, correct? Before the occupation of
2131 the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Right. It was only a couple of 4 months when he was in that, as you refer to it, 5 spokesperson role. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And you're familiar that 8 he had a full time job at that point in time? 9 A: I don't know whether he was working 10 at that time or not. If you say he was, I'll take your 11 word for it. I don't know. 12 Q: I'll suggest he wasn't available to 13 speak with you or anyone else during the day, during the 14 week; is that fair? 15 A: If he's -- not if he was away 16 working. 17 Q: Right. That's what I'm suggesting to 18 you. You did discuss with him, though, various incidents 19 that occurred. And I'm going to suggest to you that, for 20 the most part, he tried to assist you in dealing with 21 what you were dealing with, which is the investigation of 22 various incidents? 23 A: I don't know what you mean by he was 24 trying to assist me. 25 Q: All right. Let's go into some
2141 examples. A ride program following the fatal MVA that 2 occurred the first part of August 1995; he assisted with 3 that concept and encouraged that? 4 A: He didn't have any objection to it. 5 Q: Right. And, in fact, he agreed with 6 that approach, although he had no power to implement such 7 a program. 8 A: No. He knew it would be the OPP that 9 would be having a ride program. 10 Q: Right. And he thought it would be 11 helpful, didn't he? 12 A: He didn't object to it. 13 Q: All right. He also expressed 14 concerns, or addressed concerns expressed by you and 15 others about Matheson Drive, and concerns about what was 16 going on on Matheson Drive and the fact that there was a 17 gate being locked, correct? 18 A: Yes, because that's where the fatal 19 accident happened. 20 Q: Right. And that's -- they were -- 21 the occupiers were locking that gate, and it was of 22 concern to the police and the MNR because it prevented 23 certain access, correct? 24 A: It was a concern to the MNR, yes. 25 Q: Right. And their way of dealing with
2151 it was to have a key to the gate, which relieved that 2 concern, correct? 3 A: Glenn agreed to that, yes. 4 Q: Right. He also expressed concern to 5 you about outsiders causing problems for them on the Base 6 on weekends. 7 A: He very well could have. If I wrote 8 it down somewhere you'd have to help me out because I 9 don't specifically remember, but I don't deny it. 10 Q: Right. It's in the notes. I'm not 11 saying that he concerned your -- shared your particular 12 concerns regarding outsiders, but he expressed concerns? 13 A: His own concerns. 14 Q: His own concerns about outsiders. 15 A: I believe that's true. 16 Q: All right. But you're familiar with 17 the fact that people from other reserves visit reserves 18 all the time, correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It's not unusual that that occurs? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And they visit, they may stay a few 23 days, even a few weeks, and they go again; it's not 24 unusual? 25 A: No.
2161 Q: All right. Your concern, if I 2 understand your evidence in-chief, was certain people 3 coming onto this particular land. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Not simply outsiders, as a whole. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: All right. And to that end, you were 8 watching, and you were designated the role of watching, 9 fairly closely, the people that came and went from this 10 land, in August of 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Right. After the -- what's been 13 termed the takeover of the barracks area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And I take it in your 16 discussions with Glenn, just to finish off that 17 particular topic, he used to talk to you about a lot of 18 things that were far and beyond simply the concerns that 19 you were raising with him; is that fair? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And he's one to talk 22 about Potawatomi, all right, Three Fires -- 23 A: Pardon me. 24 Q: -- entitlement to the land; that's -- 25 that's --
2171 A: He spoke a lot of things. 2 Q: Right. That's part of the content of 3 discussions he would have with you, whether or not you 4 were taking part in that conversation or not? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Is that fair? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. I take it it's your view 9 today that what happened September the 6th was a tragedy? 10 A: Absolutely. 11 Q: All right. And I take it, back in 12 1995, it was your view that it was a tragedy. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. That view hasn't changed? 15 A: No. 16 Q: I take it that part of what 17 influences your view of that, is your knowledge of the 18 occupiers that were involved in what occurred on 19 September the 6th? 20 A: I don't agree with anybody dying, 21 sir. 22 Q: No, I agree with that, but your 23 surprised, knowing what you know about the people 24 involved, that it would come to something like this; is 25 that fair?
2181 A: Things were building up all summer 2 long, sir. I'm surprised that we got to the part where 3 gunshots were fired. 4 There was -- I thought there was going to 5 be some type of confrontation, sooner or later, at the 6 Park, but certainly I wasn't thinking gunfire. 7 Q: Seemed to be leading in that 8 direction -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- wasn't it? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Right. You had that feeling, 13 September 4, 5, 6 it was progressing in that way? 14 A: I didn't before then. 15 Q: Right. And even though it happened 16 on September 6th, this was something that could easily 17 have happened any number of days after that fact? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. Were you involved, in any way, 20 shape or form, with the actual contingency planning of 21 Project Maple? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You weren't consulted in any way? 24 A: No. 25
2191 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Did Inspector Carson or Staff 4 Sergeant -- acting Inspector, I always get the terms 5 wrong, Wright, Superintendent Parkin, any of them, ask 6 for your views on what was occurring on September 5th or 7 September 6th, 1995? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. I take you back very 10 quickly, just cleaning up loose ends. With respect to 11 the toll booth incident, I heard your evidence and I -- I 12 suggest to you that that particular incident was resolved 13 peacefully, when the people that were involved with it 14 were allowed to return home to the camp area. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: When they weren't precluded from 17 returning to their homes, it was resolved peacefully 18 without -- and the charges were withdrawn. 19 A: Yes -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: -- we reached agreement with them. 22 Q: Right. And the agreement was, they 23 wouldn't do it again? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Right. They'd made their point, it
2201 had been heard, now they could go home, don't do it 2 again. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. You mention in your 5 examination in-chief something regarding Children's Aid 6 and possibly calling them in as part of Project Maple. 7 Do you remember testifying -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Was that ever done -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- on September 5th or 6th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. With regards to the helicopter 14 incident I heard your testimony about the story of Abe 15 doing it and Knobby taking away the gun. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you remember giving that 18 testimony? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And Knobby is Robert 21 George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: His sons are Vince, Ron, and Luke 24 George? 25 A: Yes.
2211 Q: All of whom worked for the OPP? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Did you put much stock in 4 the story that was being told to you about Abe and Knobby 5 and the helicopter? 6 A: Knobby told me. 7 Q: Knobby told you he did it? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: What did he tell you? 10 A: He told me he took the gun from Abe. 11 Q: When did you tell you he did that? 12 A: I don't know the date. 13 Q: All right. Close on the heels of 14 1993? 15 A: I don't -- probably after that. 16 Q: All right. Probably a long time 17 after that, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: A long time after 1995? 20 A: I can't really honestly tell you, 21 sir, but he did tell me. 22 Q: Can you -- can you give me a 23 timeframe? 24 A: I can't. 25 Q: When he told you this what did you do
2221 about it? 2 A: I didn't do anything about it. 3 Q: It seems surprising when somebody 4 tells you that they took a piece of evidence that was key 5 to a crime -- 6 A: No, sir, he took a gun. I didn't say 7 it was the gun that shot the helicopter, he says he took 8 a gun from Abe in the Park. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Or in the Camp. 11 Q: So there wasn't anything you could do 12 about it because it didn't link anybody to this crime? 13 A: Well, we didn't know who shot the 14 helicopter that I was aware of. 15 Q: All right. It didn't help in any 16 way, shape, or form to solve what was perceived as a 17 crime in 1993, the shooting of a helicopter? 18 A: I don't understand, sir. 19 Q: Well -- I'll move on. The 20 intelligence that you were getting, what you've referred 21 to as simply information on the Stoney Pointers, that was 22 coming from a number of different directions, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: It came from Kettle Point? 25 A: Some of it.
2231 Q: Some individuals at Kettle Point. It 2 came from Vince George? 3 A: Some of it. 4 Q: Right. And it came from Doug McGuire 5 of 6 A: Some of it. 7 Q: -- DND, right? 8 A: Some of it. 9 Q: All right. So it came from a number 10 of different directions, but I take it from your evidence 11 that you just simply passed that along to those who were 12 supposed to be dealing with that kind of information? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And the goal of 15 intelligence is to gather as much as you possibly can, 16 analyse it, authenticate it before you act on it, 17 correct? 18 A: I knew -- I assume they'd use it in 19 making whatever plans they made -- 20 Q: All right. You don't know anything 21 more? 22 A: -- that I wasn't a part of. 23 Q: All right. You're not aware of any 24 decisions that were made on the basis of any information 25 you passed along?
2241 A: No. 2 Q: All right. You weren't involved in 3 making any decisions based on information you were 4 providing along the way? 5 A: No. 6 Q: When you were recording licence 7 plates of people going in and out of the Camp area in 8 August of 1995 did you keep track of how many people were 9 in the cars that were going in and out of the area? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You had no idea who was driving the 12 car or who was in the car, simply licence plates? 13 A: That's all I took. 14 Q: All right. So nobody stopped any 15 cars? 16 A: Most of the people they didn't know 17 anyway. No, they told us not to bother stopping them, 18 just take the licence plates. 19 Q: Right. Who told you not to bother? 20 A: I don't remember. 21 Q: Someone within the OPP? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Someone higher up in the 24 OPP? 25 A: Yes.
2251 Q: Not Wright, not Carson? 2 A: Could have been Wright. Could have 3 been Carson. 4 Q: But you don't -- 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: You just don't recall. All right. 7 Somebody authorized to give you instructions and you 8 followed them? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Do I take it though that 11 as part of the information gathering that you were doing, 12 there was also some discretion on your part when you 13 thought that the information coming simply wasn't worthy 14 of being passed along; is that fair? 15 A: I think I passed an awful lot on. I 16 don't -- I don't think it's fair. I don't know what I 17 wouldn't have passed on. 18 Q: Well, as part of your job in 19 collecting this information some information's going to 20 come to you that you think is so far-fetched you're not 21 going to pass it along for others to consider; is that 22 fair? 23 A: Not necessarily. 24 Q: Well, I refer to the MaryLou LaPratte 25 letter that I thought you indicated that there was
2261 information in there that simply never happened. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And that kind of information 4 that you know is either false or far-fetched, you're not 5 going to pass along; is that fair? 6 A: That was a comment about me, sir, 7 jumping up and pounding on the table and saying they're 8 come and burn you out. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: That did not happen. 11 Q: I'm not saying that it did. I'm just 12 saying -- 13 A: Well, that's the -- the context of 14 the letter that I referred to. 15 Q: But other information that you get 16 whether you believe it or not, you'd pass along to 17 someone? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: All right. And it would be up to 20 them to authenticate it. 21 A: It would be up to them to do whatever 22 they do with it. They're the intelligence people, sir. 23 Q: All right. Now, you were asked a 24 question by Mr. Worme about a fellow by the name of Jim 25 Moses. Do you recall that question being asked?
2271 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you weren't aware of the name of 3 Jim Moses. 4 A: I don't know Jim Moses. 5 Q: All right. I raise the issue because 6 in 1999 Jim Moses gave an interview and some information 7 came out from Mr. Moses that we have recorded in 8 documentation and I gave My Friend my notice on it. It's 9 Inquiry Document 2003112. 10 Just provide a copy because I have it. I 11 just haven't made it an exhibit. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And I'm not -- I'm not going to go 16 through it in -- in its entirety. I'll just refer to a 17 couple of lines where it says: 18 "Moses said he never saw George with a 19 gun or any other weapon. He considered 20 George a joker, not a fighter." 21 Do you see that halfway down? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I trust that's consistent with your 24 view that you've expressed regarding Dudley George? 25 A: Yes.
2281 Q: Okay. And Jim Moses says that he was 2 working on behalf of the Ontario Provincial Police 3 providing information about those occupying the Park. 4 And if you go three quarters (3/4's) of 5 the way down he says, quote: 6 "They had not a clue about the 7 situation on the Indian Reserves" 8 [quote] Moses told the paper. [quote] 9 That's why they latched onto 10 me.[unquote]" 11 The next -- skipping the next line, in the 12 next paragraph. 13 "Moses said he made three (3) trips to 14 Ipperwash beginning in the spring of 15 1995 and ending a week before the fatal 16 shooting and also spied on other 17 Reserves. He told people there he was 18 a journalist working on a story about 19 the Mohawk Warriors, he said. 20 Moses said he spied because he wanted 21 to fight an attempt by Mohawk Warriors 22 to expand their influence from Eastern 23 Ontario to other Reserves." 24 Do you see that reference? 25 A: Yes.
2291 Q: Do you recall anybody indicating that 2 they were doing a story on the Mohawk Warriors? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. None of that rings a bell for 5 you? 6 A: No. No. 7 Q: All right. Now, you were asked some 8 questions about Gerald George -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- who I trust you were aware of 11 before September 4th, 5th or 6th, 1995? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You knew his nickname was Booper? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You knew he was a councillor with the 16 Kettle Point Stony Point First Nation? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you aware that he wrote -- I'm 19 sorry. Were you aware that he was outspoken against the 20 occupation of the Army Camp and subsequently the 21 Provincial Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Not at all? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You weren't aware that he wrote a
2301 letter to a paper expressing -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- his concerns? 4 A: No. 5 Q: But you did know of the concerns of 6 Chief and Council for the Kettle Point and Stony Point 7 First Nation with regards to the occupation that was 8 occurring? 9 A: Of the occupation of what, sir? 10 Q: That was occurring? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I'm talking globally and both with 13 respect to the Army Camp and the Provincial Park. 14 A: No, they didn't support it. 15 Q: Right. They were critical of it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Right. And they expressed that 18 criticism to the OPP. You were aware of that? 19 A: I believe they did, yes. 20 Q: All right. And you were also 21 familiar with Stewart George -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- also known as Worm? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right. I take it that what occurred
2311 September 6th, Stewart George throwing a rock at Booper's 2 car didn't come as all that much of a surprise to you? 3 A: I never thought of it one (1) way of 4 the other, sir. 5 Q: It didn't cause too much concern for 6 you that this had occurred? 7 A: I didn't think anything of it at all, 8 sir, along those lines. 9 Q: Right. Is it fair to conclude you 10 never thought of it along those lines because you knew 11 the individuals involved? 12 A: I didn't think anything of it other 13 than Worm threw something at Booper's car and damaged it. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: That's as much as I knew about it. 16 Q: Right. Well, that's what's in your 17 notes and I'm -- I'm just suggesting that the notes don't 18 go any further than that because you didn't think much of 19 the actual event? 20 A: It's just an event that happened, 21 sir. I mean I didn't know anything about any newspaper 22 article or that they weren't getting along, I only knew 23 that the event occurred. 24 Q: Okay. Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked you 25 about what she indicated to be a willingness, or what
2321 appeared to be a willingness on behalf of the occupiers 2 to speak with you following what we've termed the 3 takeover of the Park, or the Camp in July of 1995. Do 4 you remember that question? 5 A: Not specifically I don't remember the 6 question but... 7 Q: Ms. Tuck-Jackson acts on behalf of 8 the OPP. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And she suggested to you 11 that there -- there wasn't a -- what appeared to be a 12 willingness to speak to you when you asked to speak to 13 somebody at the gate? 14 A: Well, it depends on when it was. I 15 mean, I spoke to Glenn at the gate a couple of times 16 without problems between us. There was talk that they 17 hadn't formed an Elders community yet to run things in 18 there. I once talked to Les Jewel and Glenn at the front 19 gate without any problems between us, so, I don't know 20 what you're -- I don't know what you're meaning there, 21 sir. 22 Q: I think you've answered the -- the 23 question in full but you also indicated Mr. Manning did 24 indicate some reluctance to speak with I think it was -- 25 A: Charlie Bouwman.
2331 Q: -- Charlie Bouwman in your presence. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And you weren't able to 4 offer any insight into why that occurred -- 5 A: I was -- 6 Q: -- simply that it occurred? 7 A: I don't recall it ever being 8 explained to me. 9 Q: Okay. Do I take it from you that 10 there were no negotiations taking place at that point in 11 time, at least between the OPP and the occupiers? 12 A: Which time, sir? 13 Q: July 29 and 30, just following the 14 takeover of the barrack area. 15 A: No, there weren't. 16 Q: All right. Because negotiations for 17 -- the OPP are negotiating somebody coming out to be 18 arrested right? 19 A: I -- no, I don't think that's right. 20 Q: Negotiations... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: There was talk of the warrant I know. 25 Q: Right. There's talk about policing
2341 issues not land issues, correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Right. You'd agree with me that the 4 OPP isn't in a position to negotiate any land issues? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Any negotiation that's taking place 7 is either somebody leaving the property of their own free 8 will or coming and being arrested in accordance with a 9 warrant for something outstanding against them; is that 10 fair? 11 A: Well, there were two (2) -- two (2) 12 incidents I know of that -- yes, one (1) about Jackson at 13 the front gate talking about turning him over and the 14 other was talking about a warrant for Glenn. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: I don't believe they were at the same 17 time. 18 Q: Right. And with respect to Jackson, 19 Lincoln Jackson, you thought that he was the driver of 20 the bus and were asking whether he would turn himself 21 over to the police, right? 22 A: It did happen. 23 Q: And to be fair, Glenn George wasn't 24 refusing to turn Lincoln Jackson over. He simply told 25 you he didn't know where he was, but he would check into
2351 it. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Right. In fact, Lincoln Jackson was 4 arrested a short time later, simply not with the 5 assistance of Glenn George? 6 A: That's quite possible. 7 Q: At least that you know of, he didn't 8 turn him over at the gate to you. 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. So he didn't actively harbour 11 Lincoln Jackson and tell you, We're not producing him. 12 He simply said, I'll look into it; I don't know where he 13 is. 14 A: He did say that. 15 Q: Okay. And at all times, you were 16 aware of a request that if there were going to be 17 discussions inside of the Camp, that the OPP officers 18 that do come in remove their firearms? 19 A: That request was made one time that 20 I'm aware of. 21 Q: Right. Well, it was certainly made 22 and it was rejected by the OPP because you weren't about 23 to go inside the Camp without your firearm, correct? 24 A: Charlie Bouwman didn't -- the 25 uniforms, no.
2361 Q: Right, but you were with Charlie 2 Bouwman when he rejected that request, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Right. And it was made on the basis 5 that you didn't feel that you would be secure going in 6 without your firearm? 7 A: It was made because he -- that's part 8 of his uniform, sir. I didn't have a gun. 9 Q: All right. So it's a decision that 10 could have been made -- sorry, it was made on a 11 formality, that it was simply part of the uniform. 12 A: That's the reason that they were 13 given why he wasn't going to take it off. 14 Q: All right. So if somebody showed up 15 without a uniform, without a firearm, they could have 16 gone in if they so chose? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And lastly, you were involved on the 23 morning of September the 6th when the OPP went down to 24 remove the picnic tables? 25 A: Yes.
2371 Q: All right. Can you tell me where the 2 picnic tables were, to the best of your recollection, 3 when you went down to remove them? 4 A: Yes, they were in the sandy parking 5 lot area, the area that's become known as the sandy 6 parking lot area, that leads off of Army Camp Road down 7 to the beach area and the public access there. 8 Q: All right. Were -- were these 9 tables, and I understand there was twenty (20) of -- 10 A: twenty-one (21), I think. 11 Q: twenty-one (21). Were they all 12 stacked up to prevent access to the parking lot? 13 A: You couldn't get -- you couldn't get 14 past them. 15 Q: Well, I appreciate that, but were 16 they stacked up, in your view, to prevent access from the 17 parking lot? 18 A: I don't think -- 19 Q: To the parking lot? 20 A: -- I took a view that that's what 21 they were there for. 22 Q: Were they stacked on top of each 23 other? 24 A: I don't believe so. 25 Q: Did they appear to be set up around a
2381 fire that was in the middle of the parking lot? 2 A: There was a fire there, sir. 3 Q: Right. And you're aware that there 4 was a fire there the night before, correct? 5 A: I wasn't down there the night before, 6 sir. 7 Q: No, but you were aware that there was 8 a fire there the night before. 9 A: I was not. 10 Q: So when you went down with the group 11 to remove the picnic tables, you weren't aware that there 12 had been a fire there the night before? 13 A: Not that I'm aware of. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I wasn't down there the night before, 16 sir. 17 Q: No, I appreciate that, but you 18 weren't told that there had been a fire in the sandy 19 parking lot the night before? 20 A: I don't recall being told that. 21 Q: All right. If I suggest to you that 22 there was a ceremonial fire in the sandy parking lot the 23 night before and that the picnic tables, when you 24 arrived, were set up around that site, would that be 25 accurate to your recollection?
2391 A: There was a fire there? 2 Q: You're missing the -- 3 A: I don't know whether they had a 4 ceremonial fire there that night before or not. 5 Q: Right. And you can't speak to 6 whether or not it appeared that the tables were set up in 7 such a way around that particular fire? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: "They were in a circle around the 12 fire, in the middle of the roadway, 13 leading down to the beach area." 14 Q: Right. 15 A: That's all I can tell you, sir. 16 Q: Right. Were you aware of anybody 17 that was prevented access to the beach through that 18 parking lot? 19 A: I have no personal knowledge of 20 anybody. 21 Q: Nobody complained to you? 22 A: Not to me. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you, sir. Those are all 24 my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
2401 very much. 2 Mr. George...? 3 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Commissioner, all 4 areas of interest to my clients have been fully 5 canvassed, so I don't have any additional questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. George. 8 Mr. Alexander, same thing applies? 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: No questions, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 12 how long do you think you might be? Just give me an 13 estimate so we can decide. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Two (2) minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) 16 minutes? Well, you're on. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: I'm just following up on Mr. 20 Scullion's last questions to you, Detective Sergeant. 21 On the occasion when you went with 22 Sergeant Bouwman to the Camp and Sergeant Bouwman was 23 requested not to bring his side arm into the Camp, who 24 made that request of him? 25 A: Glenn George.
2411 Q: Did anybody else make such a request? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And what -- what was explained 4 to Glenn George at the time, in response to that request? 5 A: That it was part of his uniform. 6 Q: When you were asked about making up 7 the incident report on September the 6th, being called 8 back to the Forest Detachment or crime trailer -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and you indicated that you would 11 have had to have had Sam Poole's statement from Gerald 12 George to make up the incident report, would you need to 13 have spoken to Sam Poole to make up that incident report? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You were asked by Ms. Esmonde, as 16 well, about the -- about the incident concerning the hut 17 that was occupied by Kevin Simons and the fact that it -- 18 it burned down later, after the effects were removed from 19 the hut by the military, and you indicated that you 20 thought, in your opinion, it was likely or probably 21 burned by the occupiers. 22 Your notes -- I think you indicated this 23 when you gave your examination -- in your examination-in- 24 chief, that you spoke to Carl George about that. 25 A: Yes.
2421 Q: And what did Carl George tell you? 2 A: He told me he couldn't stop the young 3 people. Do you know what date that was, sir? 4 Q: If you look at page 48 and 49. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Was it in '90...? 9 Q: Book 1. 10 A: Book 1? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: About halfway down page 48. 15 A: I'm too far up in my notebook. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, I spoke to the acting Chief Carl 20 George, who said he'd told them not to do it, but they 21 wouldn't listen. 22 Q: And what did you mean by "it"? 23 A: Starting the fire. 24 Q: Thank you. 25
2431 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: The context of that 4 conversation with Carl George is that he's -- there's 5 loud music being played and then it says he spoke with 6 Carl George. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well -- well that's why 8 I asked him what he meant by "it", and he said the fire. 9 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, yes, but I 10 think that would be important to put the full context to 11 the witness before asking him what he meant by it. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, there 14 has got to be -- 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: He wrote the notes. I 16 asked him what he meant by "it"; he said the fire. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well, 18 Ms. Esmonde is saying you didn't put enough to make -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Did you meant -- did you 20 mean -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- his 22 response. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: -- by "it", the loud noise or did you
2441 mean by "it", the fire? 2 A: Didn't mean the loud noise. 3 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have anything 8 by way of re-examination, Commissioner. And I simply 9 wish to -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 11 break now. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: -- thank Officer Speck 13 for his attendance and his testimony. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Officer, for coming and giving us your 16 evidence. And we'll take a break now, and you'll 17 call your next witness after? 18 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 20 21 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 3:22 p.m.
2451 --- Upon resuming at 3:36 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed, please be seated. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, we call 6 the next witness for this Inquiry then, Chris Martin. 7 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 afternoon. Good afternoon. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 11 Martin. 12 13 CHRISTOPHER ALLAN MARTIN, Sworn 14 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps, just before I 16 -- I get into the examination-in-chief of Officer Martin, 17 Commissioner, I'd simply like to, on behalf of Mr. 18 Scullion, reserve the -- the next exhibit number for the 19 document that he had referred to, being a -- a report 20 from -- a newspaper report that he'd referred to, 21 referencing Ted Moses. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's 23 not an exhibit now? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't believe it's 25 an exhibit, and maybe we'll get --
2461 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 2 let's -- 3 MR. DONALD WORME: -- Mr. Millar just 4 check that as well. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Is there a document 6 number for that? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks 8 like 2003112; is that right? 9 MR. DONALD WORME: That would appear to 10 be correct, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2003112. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. That 13 would be P-1191, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1191: Document Number 2003112. 17 The North Bay Nugget 18 newspaper article: OPP, CSIS, 19 Spied on Natives at Protest: 20 Police Knew Protestors Not 21 Armed, 'Spy' Claims", 22 Saturday, June 12, 1999. 23 24 MR. DONALD WORME: And -- and just for 25 the record, Commissioner, Mr. Scullion indicates that
2471 there is a number of newspaper articles of which his 2 reference was to two (2) pages, all right? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, for 4 some reason I think this has already been referred to 5 somewhere in the Commission so I thought there was a 6 number but, in any event, it's got a number now. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. Thank you, 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 10 carry on. 11 12 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: And Officer Martin, your current 14 status, you are a member of the Ontario Provincial 15 Police? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And you have been a member since 18 1986? 19 A: That's correct, sir. 20 Q: You'll see in the book of documents 21 in front of you, if you just look either under Tab 1 or - 22 - or it may well be in the inside jacket cover, is a 23 document which bears your name on it and would appear to 24 be a resume of yours. Do you see that document? 25 A: Yes, I have the document right here,
2481 sir. 2 Q: All right. I'm going to refer you to 3 this document, but before I do I would ask that that be 4 made the next exhibit please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1192. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1192: Professional Experience of 8 Chris A. Martin. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: It would indicate that you're 12 presently -- your present status is a sergeant? 13 A: An Area Traffic Sergeant for Lambton 14 County, sir. 15 Q: All right. And I wonder if you would 16 just go ahead and read the heading of that, it says, 17 "Chris A. Martin," and just go beyond that, and then I'll 18 ask you about -- I'll ask you about that. 19 A: Chris A. Martin, Traffic Sergeant, 20 Badge Number 6842, Traffic, Marine and Community Directed 21 Patrol Unit Manager for the Lambton Detachment. 22 Q: All right. And that's what I was 23 going to ask you. And I think you've already confirmed 24 that you became a provincial police officer in Ontario in 25 1986?
2491 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And you were initially stationed at 3 the Mount Forest Detachment? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And that's as opposed to the Forest 6 Detachment, obviously? 7 A: That's correct, sir. 8 Q: And in what capacity did -- were you 9 when you took that first posting at Mount Forest 10 Detachment? 11 A: I was assigned to Mount Forest 12 Detachment as a probationary constable, assigned to 13 general law enforcement, patrols -- 14 Q: In 1987 you were transferred to the 15 Forest Detachment and again were assigned to general law 16 enforcement duties? 17 A: That's correct, sir. 18 Q: And I understand, from reviewing your 19 document, that you spent some two (2) years in the Forest 20 Detachment? 21 A: That's correct, sir. 22 Q: And from '89 until 1995 you worked at 23 the Sombra Detachment? 24 A: That's correct, sir. 25 Q: And I take it that you can advise us
2501 of the various positions that you had held during this 2 time? 3 A: The Sombra Detachment, primarily 4 general law enforcement. There was a secondment to a 5 drug joint forces operation in the city of Sarnia, as 6 well as lead drug resource officer during that time 7 period as well. 8 Q: And I'm going to ask you, as well, 9 when we get to -- I may as well do it now. I'm going to 10 ask you about some of your involvement, your experience 11 in policing of First Nations communities, some of the 12 relationships that you may have formed, if, in fact, you 13 have any, with First Nations officers or communities. 14 A: The 1987, when I transferred to 15 Forest Detachment in September, that was my first 16 experience at any type of policing involving a force -- 17 First Nations community. 18 I was assigned to a shift with 19 approximately four (4) or five (5) other members out of 20 that Detachment. And at the time, Kettle Point was -- 21 the Kettle Point community was served by the Kettle Point 22 police service and the Forest Detachment and the Kettle 23 Point police service enjoyed strong working 24 relationships. 25 There was no geographical barriers,
2511 because the communities were closely knit. So it wasn't 2 long thereafter before strong relationships were formed 3 with the police service members from Kettle Point, as 4 well as the various members of the Forest Detachment. 5 I was assigned to a shift where my partner 6 for a period of time was now Sergeant Vince George. 7 Vinnie and I became close friends over a period of time 8 and that was through commuting back and forth to work 9 together; at the time we both lived in Sarnia and of 10 course working together. 11 And it was primarily through Vince where I 12 became more familiar with a lot of the Kettle Point 13 community over a period of time, and Phil George who was 14 a member of the Kettle Point police service, Carmen 15 Bressette, Luke George. 16 Eventually, in 1989, I was assigned as a 17 coach officer for a recruit constable that was assigned 18 to the Kettle Point police service. 19 Q: In 1989? 20 A: In 1989, right. Sombra -- 21 Q: You were at the Sombra Detachment at 22 that point? 23 A: At that time I was still at the 24 Forest Detachment, in the summer of 1989 and I -- I 25 transferred to the Sombra Detachment in the fall of 1989.
2521 Q: And you were at that Detachment until 2 1995? 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: Part of the policing area would be 5 the Walpole Island First Nations? 6 A: That's correct, sir. 7 Q: And can you tell us what involvement, 8 if any, you had with that policing service? 9 A: Again, Walpole Island police service 10 had a really strong working relationship with the Ontario 11 Provincial Police. 12 We provided safety and back up to their 13 members and we were first responders when their members 14 were not working. 15 So we got to know that community down 16 there quite well, primarily from a working capacity, but 17 developed strong personal relationships with the officers 18 down there as well, and got to know a lot of people in 19 the community down there through that six (6) year 20 tenure. 21 Q: During the course of that tenure, as 22 well as at the Forest Detachment, in your involvement of 23 the Kettle and Stony Point First Nations, aside from the 24 professional relationships that you built with the 25 officers, some of whom you've mentioned, you had personal
2531 and professional relationships with others in the 2 community? 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: And can you describe any of that, 5 even briefly, if you would. 6 A: Well, I think it was primarily, 7 again, you know, through the close relationships with the 8 George brothers that I got to know a lot of the people, 9 particularly in the Kettle Point area. 10 And again, the same at Walpole Island, 11 where I would get to know extended family members and 12 other people within the community that were connected to 13 the police services in various capacities. 14 And whether it was recreational activities 15 or other events, whether it was meal periods that were 16 spent down on Kettle Point or on Walpole Island or -- or 17 other activities, that was where most of the familiarity 18 came from. 19 Q: During the course of your building 20 these relationships, if I can put it that way, did you 21 come to learn anything of the -- the community that was - 22 - pardon me. 23 Let me just back up. Did you learn 24 anything about any connection that that community may 25 have had to CFB Ipperwash?
2541 A: Yes, sir, I did. 2 Q: Well perhaps if you would just tell 3 us about that, please. 4 A: It would have been in 1987, through 5 those relationships, that I learned that the CFB 6 Ipperwash was appropriated by the Federal Government in 7 the early 1900's, I believe it was late 1930's or early 8 1940's, and used as a military base. 9 And the information that I received 10 through conversations was that they looked forward to the 11 day when that land would be returned to them and that 12 they might be able to enjoy it in its original form once 13 again. 14 Q: Did you have such discussions, for 15 example, with Vince George? 16 A: Yes I -- I believe it was primarily 17 through -- it would have been Vince or Ron, Luke, it may 18 have been Knobby, it may have been at -- or during 19 conversations when I was in their presence. 20 Q: Did you have any occasion -- we've 21 heard something of other members of -- of the OPP and 22 others who would have attended at the Army Base for the 23 purposes of firearm training, probably pre-1993? 24 A: Yes. I believe I was there once or 25 twice, not very often, but I believe I was there.
2551 Q: All right. Can you tell us, Officer, 2 what was your first involvement as part of the police 3 service in attending at the Army Base at CFB Ipperwash? 4 What capacity were you there, what was 5 your involvement? 6 A: Is it okay if I refer to my 7 notebooks? 8 Q: Yes, please do. And perhaps I might 9 simply indicate, Commissioner, that the Witness has 10 provided several sets of notes if I can put it that way; 11 some of which we have on the database and some of which 12 we've obtained from him subsequently. 13 And what I want to simply note for the 14 record is where these can be found in terms of the 15 document brief that I put in front of you, that I put in 16 front of the witness and that My Friends have copy of 17 through the list of documents that have been provided. 18 I would indicate firstly that at Tab 19 Number 2 there's Inquiry Document 2005585 which is 20 comprised of three (3) pages, specifically dealing with 21 August 24th of 1995 and I suspect that that is what 22 Officer Martin will be referring to shortly. 23 Secondly, at Tab Number 3 there's Inquiry 24 Document 1000516 -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Just for the record, My
2561 Friend referred to August, he should have referred to '93 2 not '95. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Pardon me. Mr. 4 Roland's quite correct and I thank him for that. 5 Secondly, the Inquiry Document 1000516 is 6 a set of -- the Officer's notes from July 29th to 7 September 26th and you'll find those at Tab 3. Those 8 same documents, Mr. Commissioner, are also repeated at 9 Tab 23 following the last blue page. 10 Now, there's a series of documents at Tab 11 23 but it is those that follow the last blue page that 12 we've included to separate those documents. And that 13 bears Inquiry Document 2003717. 14 Lastly, also at Tab 23, and this follows 15 the second blue page, Inquiry Document, again, 2003707, 16 is a set of notes from September the 8th of '95 to 17 September the 21st or '95. And you'll perhaps note that 18 those are on slightly different paper and -- and they are 19 in fact a different set of notes. And I will have the 20 Officer speak to -- to that as he goes on in his 21 testimony. 22 What I would propose at this point is that 23 I will file one (1) complete set to be used as an exhibit 24 in these proceedings as they are also properly redacted; 25 that is to exclude the names of those individuals that
2571 either A) have nothing to do with the matter at hand or 2 secondly are names of individuals that ought to be 3 properly redacted either they are an informant of that 4 nature or will not be called as witnesses in these 5 proceedings. 6 So I would -- I would simply perhaps file 7 this. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The package 9 of documents that you're filing contains all of those 10 notes that you just referred to? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: That -- that I've 12 referred to, that's correct, sir. For the purposes of 13 this examination I will be referring to the various tabs 14 that I've just drawn your attention to, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Perhaps then, Officer Martin, if I 19 can ask you then to turn to -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 21 need an exhibit number. 22 THE REGISTRAR: You need an exhibit 23 number for that package. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You need an 25 exhibit number.
2581 THE REGISTRAR: P-1193, Your Honour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1193. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1193: Handwritten notes of Chris 6 Martin. 7 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 9 Registrar. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: If you can then turn to that document 13 at page 2, or if you wish to refer to your notes of 14 August the 24th of 1993, Officer Martin. Perhaps I might 15 ask you if you could first of all assist us in terms of 16 reading your notes. I think that some of My Friends had 17 indicated they had some difficulty and certainly I did. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: From an investigative capacity the 21 first time I attended at the CFB Ipperwash Base was on 22 the 24th of August in 1993. Page 74 of my notebook 23 reflects that I was called at my residence and requested 24 to assist the Number 1 District ERT Team at CFB 25 Ipperwash.
2591 At 05:30 I was called out. At 06:15 I 2 proceeded from the Office. I picked up Constable Jacklin 3 en route to the Forest Detachment. At 7:05 I stood by at 4 the Forest Detachment. At 9:25 briefed by Detective 5 Sergeant Wright, Inspector Turner, on scene Commander. 6 "09:50. Viewed the search warrant for 7 CFB Ipperwash. Highway 21, County Road 8 3 to Matheson Drive, to Outer and Lake 9 Huron. Search to be conducted between 10 7:00 a.m. and 8:30 p.m. for firearms, 11 ammunition, offensive weapons, 12 explosives, and explosive devices. 13 Special assignment to search for the 14 above-noted items to provide assistance 15 to K-9 handler and P/C Jacklin should 16 same flee to bush." 17 11:20 a.m. I was en route. 11:34 a.m. I 18 was at scene. At 11:37 a.m.: 19 "I commenced a search of the entire 20 grounds assisted by the ERT team. 21 At times there were several people 22 gathering, yelling, screaming, calling 23 us on. At no time were comments issued 24 back. 25 Completed ground search in dunes."
2601 At 8:30 I proceeded back to the Forest 2 Detachment and arrived there at 8:45. At 9:15 p.m. there 3 was a debriefing by Inspector Carson. At 9:40 I 4 proceeded back to my detachment, eventually going off- 5 duty at 10:30 p.m. 6 Q: All right. Let me just ask you a 7 couple of questions arising out of those -- those notes 8 and what you've testified to. 9 First of all, Officer, do you have an 10 independent recollection of the events that you've 11 described in your notebook? 12 A: Yes, I have some independent 13 recollection. 14 Q: And in terms of the specifics do you 15 have specific recollection or does -- does reading these 16 refresh your memory to some degree? 17 A: Reading refreshes my memory to a 18 certain degree but I do have some recollection of the 19 incident without using the notes. 20 Q: Thank you, sir. At 9:20 -- at 09:25 21 hours you indicate that you were briefed by -- I take it 22 that's Staff Sergeant Wright as he then was, Detective 23 Sergeant, pardon me? 24 A: That's correct, sir. 25 Q: And do you recall that briefing and -
2611 - and can you tell us what that briefing was about? 2 A: The briefing centered around the 3 execution of the search warrant and the assigning of 4 responsibilities during the execution of the search 5 warrant's specific tasks. 6 Q: Do you recall what the search warrant 7 was in relation to? 8 A: It was in relation to the follow-up 9 of the shooting of the helicopter. 10 Q: All right. Now, I understand, sir, 11 that that was not your typical execution of -- of a -- of 12 a search warrant that you might have otherwise been 13 familiar with? 14 A: Yes, sir, that's correct it was not. 15 Q: Tell us about that if you would? 16 A: Typically when a search warrant is 17 executed there is an element of surprise that might yield 18 additional evidence or evidence may not be discarded or 19 thrown away or hid. 20 In this situation there was notification 21 that we would be proceeding to CFB Ipperwash for the 22 purpose of executing a search warrant as a result of the 23 shooting that had occurred involving the helicopter prior 24 to the 24th of August. 25 Q: All right. And I understand as well
2621 that you would have known a number of the individuals 2 whose residences or otherwise their places of abode, were 3 to be searched? 4 A: I was familiar with some of them. I 5 was familiar with some of the names and not familiar with 6 some of them as well. 7 Q: Fair enough. And you've described 8 that there were a number of people that were -- again, 9 I'm looking at your entry for 11:37 that were yelling -- 10 sorry, I'm not -- I'm not going to try to read that, but 11 generally that there were other -- that there were some 12 folks that were yelling and calling us on, as I think 13 you've indicated. 14 A: Not from within the actual Base 15 itself. From outside of the fence property some people 16 had gathered and there was some yelling and yelling at 17 us, some comments directed towards us, periodically 18 screaming. 19 Q: All right. And did you recognize any 20 of those individuals? 21 A: The only individual that I recognized 22 was Dudley. 23 Q: All right. Had you had some dealing 24 -- you're referring to Dudley George? 25 A: That's correct, sir.
2631 Q: And had you some dealings with him 2 that you would recognize him at that point, in 1993? 3 A: I'd had some dealings, but I was also 4 familiar with him just through the relationships that I'd 5 developed on Kettle Point. So I don't want to say that I 6 had, per se, negative dealings, but I certainly knew who 7 he was. 8 Q: All right. As a consequence of the 9 execution of that search warrant, did you find any -- any 10 evidence of any value or do you know what, if anything, 11 was discovered? 12 A: I did not find any evidence of any 13 value. If I have they would have been recorded in my 14 notebooks. And I cannot recollect with any certainty 15 what evidence was found during the execution of the 16 search warrant. 17 Q: Beyond what you've described as a 18 result of your involvement in the execution of the search 19 warrant, had you any further involvement insofar as CFB 20 Ipperwash, as it has been described? 21 What would your next involvement be? 22 Perhaps that's a better question. 23 A: My next involvement would have been 24 in July of 1995. 25 Q: At Tab 3 of the book of documents in
2641 front of you, there are your notes that commence with 2 Saturday, 29th of July of 1995. You -- you have your own 3 notebook as well, referring to those dates? 4 A: That is correct, sir. 5 Q: And between the helicopter -- pardon 6 me, the search warrant and that date, you didn't have any 7 further involvement? 8 A: There was a detail that I was 9 assigned to on the beach in the summer of 1994, but that 10 was not involving CFB Ipperwash. 11 Q: Excuse me. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Perhaps before I refer you then to 16 your notes at the 29th of July of '95, if you could look 17 at your notes of May 28th, 1994. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which Tab 22 are they under? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I think you'll find 24 these in the inside cover of the -- of the document 25 brief, Commissioner.
2651 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 MR. DONALD WORME: There isn't any 5 document number attached to that. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Would you go ahead, Officer Martin, 9 and just read those for us please, in terms of the plain 10 clothes detail that you were -- had been assigned to? 11 A: "Saturday the 28th of May '94. 12 Assignment was to assist the Lambton 13 County Crime Unit in plain clothes 14 detail. The location was Ipperwash 15 Beach and Provincial Park. The weather 16 was clear and warm. 17 The next entry: 18 "The short acronyms for meal period, 19 which was not applicable in that 20 situation. I was accompanied by 21 Detective Sergeant Wright, Detective 22 Constable Dew, Constable Jacklin, 23 Constable Eve and Constable Desjardin. 24 At 07:00 [7:00 a.m.], I was on duty 25 from my residence. I proceeded to the
2661 Forest Detachment where I attended a 2 briefing. The detail was subsequently 3 completed throughout the day without 4 incident and proceeded back to my 5 residence at conclusion of the detail 6 [arriving at home or off duty at 6:00 7 p.m.]" 8 Q: You'll agree with me there's no 9 indication of what that detail was about. Do you have a 10 recollection of what it was that you were to do? 11 A: I recall doing the detail, sir, but 12 I'm not 100 percent sure as to the reasons why we were 13 there on that day. 14 Q: Your next involvement, then, would be 15 July the 29th, I think, as you've indicated? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 17 you move on. Is this document -- 18 MR. DONALD WORME: It is part of -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- part of 20 that exhibit that you filed? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: It is part of the 22 exhibit, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, my next 25 involvement was on Saturday the 29th of July 1995.
2671 "At [3:20] 15:20 hours, I was contacted 2 by Detective Constable Dew on pager. I 3 was requested to 10-19 the Forest 4 Detachment as soon as possible in 5 reference to problems at the CFB 6 Ipperwash. 7 At [3:35 p.m.] I was at my residence. 8 At [3:45 p.m.] I was en route, arriving 9 --" 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Perhaps, just so that we avoid any -- 13 any confusion, I might ask you, Officer, if you might 14 just refer to the actual entry. I -- I know you're 15 converting the twenty-four (24) hour clock to the a.m., 16 p.m. for civilian benefit, but perhaps you can simply 17 refer to it as the way you've got it indicated. 18 A: Sure. 19 "Forest Detachment, briefed quickly by 20 Detective Constable Dew. Earlier date 21 occupiers of CFB took over some of the 22 buildings and a school bus that ran an 23 MP's jeep. I'm advised to standby at 24 the Forest Detachment. 25 6:10 advised by Inspector John Carson
2681 to proceed to Grand Bend Detachment to 2 interview a party whose son was in 3 conversation with an Indian fellow 4 earlier in the week regarding some 5 information. 6 At 7:27 I conducted that interview, a 7 tape recorded interview of that 8 individual." 9 Q: And I'm going to ask you, if I just 10 might interrupt briefly, Officer, when you do get to 11 those portions, I would ask you to refrain from using the 12 names of those individuals. They will not be called here 13 and I can tell the Commissioner, as well, that the names 14 have been redacted from the exhibit to which the public 15 will have access. 16 Continue if you would please. 17 A: Okay, sir. 18 "The interview was completed at 7:43 19 and then I proceeded back to the Forest 20 Detachment. 21 I was debriefed at the Forest 22 Detachment and I received instructions 23 to remain in the Forest area at the 24 Forest Golf and Country Club for the 25 remainder of that night."
2691 Q: Would that have been the end of your 2 -- of your shift? 3 A: Yes. My notebook indicates that I 4 was off duty at 07:30 hours but that was the conclusion 5 of my involvement on the 29th. 6 Q: Just let me refer back to the first 7 entry then, if I may. That after receiving the call, you 8 attend to your residence at 15:35, you arrive at the 9 Forest Detachment, if I read that correctly, at 16:20 10 hours. 11 A: Yes, that's correct, sir. 12 Q: And it indicates that you were 13 briefed quickly. Do you have a recollection of who 14 provided that briefing? Is that indicated there, 15 Detective Constable Dew, am I reading that right? 16 A: That's correct, sir. 17 Q: And I take the briefing is simply 18 that information that you have recorded, just following 19 that -- that entry? 20 A: The gist of the information is 21 recorded in my notebook, sir, yes. 22 Q: The interview that you would have 23 been instructed to proceed to the Grand Bend Detachment 24 to perform, who did you go with? 25 A: I was accompanied by Detective
2701 Constable Dew. 2 Q: And at Tab Number 4 there is an 3 Inquiry Document 2003761, this is an un-redacted copy, 4 Commissioner. And I would ask, first of all, that that 5 be made an exhibit, however, in doing so, that the names 6 of the individuals be redacted, as well as any other 7 identifying information. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: So if we can have an 10 exhibit number for that? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1193 -- 1194, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1194. Thank 13 you. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1194: Document Number 2003761. 16 Transcript of interview by C. 17 Martin and M. Dew of citizens 18 with information regarding 19 occupiers activities at the 20 Ipperwash Army Base, July 29, 21 1995. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: And Officer, you have -- you've had 25 an opportunity to review that document that is now marked
2711 as 1194? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: The notation -- let's just turn to 4 that document, if we would then. The date of the 5 interview was July 29th of 1995? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And concluded at 19:43 hours, which 8 corresponds with the notations in your notebook we've 9 just referred to? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: The legend would indicate "CM" being 12 yourself, Chris Martin? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And you indicate that you are there 15 to -- to interview the two (2) individuals, you're there 16 together with Constable Mark Dew? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And it -- and it reads and I'll quote 19 from the second -- pardon me, third full sentence: 20 "Earlier this week [you have the name 21 of the individual] you received 22 information that came directly to you 23 from, ah, your son and that information 24 was relevant to certain information, 25 ah, pertaining to activities about
2721 First Nations person on the, ah, Camp 2 Ipperwash Base. What, if anything, can 3 you tell me about that information?" 4 And it continues on the next page, that is 5 the individual who then describes -- and perhaps I can 6 ask you simply to tell us about what it is that you can 7 recall, if you have an independent recollection, and if 8 not I would ask you simply to read the information that's 9 recorded there. 10 A: I think it would be better to read 11 the information, if that's all right, sir? 12 Q: Please go ahead then. 13 A: "The interviewee, when questioned 14 with that, responded: I was informed on 15 Thursday evening, calling into my wife 16 at Ipperwash Beach, that my son and a 17 group of other people, who were down at 18 the beach having a campfire on 19 Ipperwash, were approached by a rather 20 large individual named Andy, who was 21 Native American Indian, and he asked if 22 he could join the group. Approximately 23 eight (8) kids were having the fire. 24 He was informed by one (1) of them that 25 he could join and was sitting there.
2731 One (1) of the people asked him how it 2 would be this winter if they were to go 3 snowmobiling on the Army Base, and he 4 proceeded then to explain that they 5 shouldn't be on there at all, they 6 shouldn't even walk on the beach, and 7 that something was coming down similar 8 to the size or -- of -- or situation 9 that happened at Oka; that they were 10 heavily armed, in fact, they said that 11 they have a large enough arsenal to 12 blow up the Camp. 13 As they proceeded to say that they had 14 some rocket launchers, that they had 15 some 9 millimetre weapons, that they 16 had some automatic weapons, that they 17 had some hand grenades, and also 18 informed them that there was Indians 19 coming to join them from as far away as 20 California, that they were going to 21 burn some buildings and basically that 22 it was going to happen on the weekend. 23 To go on from that point I had talked 24 to my wife and she explained that this 25 had happened.
2741 I had a further conversation earlier 2 this evening with my son before I made 3 a phone call to the OPP station, and 4 this was reiterated by him earlier this 5 evening that this is exactly how it was 6 addressed to them. 7 The Indian seemed to be maybe 8 intoxicated, maybe that we thought it 9 was just, you know, kind of throwing 10 words together, but when we noticed on 11 the news that there was some activity 12 there, we thought it was our 13 responsibility to inform you of what we 14 had heard earlier in this week." 15 Continuing on: 16 "The description that I've heard from 17 my son was that he was over six (6) 18 feet, possibly as heavy as, oh, from 19 guestimate, over three hundred (300) 20 pounds, Mohawk-type hairstyle, and he 21 was bragging to the kids that he had 22 served approximately three (3) years in 23 prison and also informed them that he 24 had a couple of kids. They would have 25 assumed or guessed that he was late
2751 twenties or early thirties." 2 My question to him: 3 Did any of the kids indicate if they'd 4 ever seen this individual before or was 5 this the first time they'd seen him?" 6 His response: 7 "I've only talked to my son. As far 8 that information that's the first time 9 that he'd seen himself." 10 My question: 11 "Did he talk about any jewellery or the 12 clothing that he had on? 13 No, I -- I never got into any further 14 description of him as an individual 15 with him." 16 My next question: 17 "Where [excuse me] where exactly were 18 they when they met this individual?" 19 His response: 20 "They would have been at the bottom of 21 Centre Ipperwash Road, oh, just on the 22 beach, probably within, maybe, you 23 know, a hundred (100) feet of the boat 24 launch area, at the bottom, actually at 25 the beach.
2761 And this conversation with this Andy 2 occurred on which night?" 3 His response: 4 "This would have been on Monday evening 5 past." 6 Continuing on, my question: 7 "Okay, and he talked about something 8 coming down this weekend similar to 9 Oka. 10 He talked about buildings being burned 11 and he talked about having an arsenal. 12 Did they indicate at what time on the 13 weekend or just the weekend?" 14 His response: 15 "It was generalized as the weekend that 16 this would be happening." 17 My question: 18 "Were there any discussions about 19 vehicles that would be used during the 20 weekend?" 21 His response: 22 "I'm -- I'm not sure. There may have 23 been, but we didn't have that 24 conversation with our son." 25 My question:
2771 "He talked about having an arsenal, and 2 you described to me hand grenades, 9 3 mile-metre guns. Was there any 4 indication as to where they got these 5 weapons from?" 6 His response: 7 "Not in -- not in that conversation. 8 It, uh, it seemed to me that it was 9 relayed back to me that it was more 10 bragging of what they actually had 11 rather than trying to identify the 12 source." 13 My question: 14 "These 9 mm guns, were they handguns?" 15 His response: 16 "I believe they were." 17 My question: 18 "You referred to sawed off rocket 19 launchers?" 20 His response: 21 "That was a term that my son used. He 22 actually got into some detail about the 23 fact that it was a rocket launcher, 24 that they had already launched the 25 rockets, but at this point they could
2781 launch anything else that they wanted 2 to from it." 3 My question: 4 And the hand grenades, did they give 5 you any indication as to how many they 6 had?" 7 His response: 8 "All -- all they -- the only indication 9 of -- of size or -- or mass was the 10 fact that they said that they had 11 enough in their arsenal to blow up the 12 whole camp." 13 My question: 14 "Did Andy mention any names of any 15 individuals?" 16 His response: 17 "I don't know that. He may have this, 18 you know, as I told you earlier, I've 19 only talked to my son briefly, so that 20 we could phone you with the information 21 that we had as far as details of the 22 conversation or how much more 23 information he gave, I honestly don't 24 know at this point." 25 My question:
2791 "Did Andy talk about the reasons for 2 this hostile aggression?" 3 His response: 4 "Again, he may have, but that wasn't a 5 question I asked." 6 My question: 7 "Okay, you repeated that there were 8 some Indians coming from the United 9 States of America. Some of these 10 Indians were from California. Can you 11 enlighten me further on what was said 12 with regards to that?" 13 His response: 14 "Basically that he said that they would 15 be armed enough and that they would 16 have enough man power and that they 17 were having people coming as far away 18 from California, meaning Native 19 American Indians. As far as any -- any 20 further details about those people, I - 21 - I'm not certain, I'm not sure myself. 22 My question: 23 "Was there any mention any time of the 24 American Indian? [There's an 25 indication that it's IA, which would
2801 mean inaudible]" 2 His response: 3 "Not that I'm aware of." 4 My question: 5 "Was there any mention at any time of 6 the Lawyer's Society?" 7 I believe that to be a -- a -- 8 Q: It indicates Lawyer's -- 9 A: -- typing error -- 10 Q: -- Society in terms of the 11 transcript, though. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes, continue. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I'll just get you to read to the 16 bottom of the page where it appears to me that you then 17 turn over the questioning to Officer Dew, who is with 18 you. 19 A: Okay. 20 "Again, not that I'm aware of. As I 21 explained, I didn't get into detail. 22 These details may service, you know, if 23 we -- if we have further conversation 24 with our son and just ask him if any of 25 these --"
2811 My question: 2 "Was there -- [excuse me], was there 3 any indication of taking over 4 buildings?" 5 His response: 6 "There was talk of actually taking over 7 some of the buildings that they wanted 8 for themselves and burning other 9 buildings that they felt weren't useful 10 to them." 11 My question: 12 "And when was this to take place?" 13 His response: 14 "This weekend. Everything that they 15 talked about was based at this -- was 16 going to happen this weekend, because 17 he basically warned the kids that they 18 shouldn't be going anywhere near, um, 19 on the beach or anyone else near the 20 army camp this weekend, because that's 21 when it was going to happen." 22 My question: 23 "Do you consider this information to be 24 reliable?" 25 His response:
2821 "At the time, I don't know, but in 2 light of what I now see in the news, I 3 would assume that it's got some merit." 4 Q: And then you go on to turn the -- the 5 questioning over to Officer Dew, who is accompanying you? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. Now, obviously, this 8 information that's provided to you doesn't come directly 9 from the person providing the statement. 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: It comes from his son. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Did you speak to his son? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: Can you tell us why not? 16 A: My recollection is, is that the 17 individual did not want us speaking directly to the son 18 because of the age of the son and he did not want his son 19 involved with the police and providing the police with 20 information of this magnitude. 21 Q: Do you have any idea what happened to 22 this information once you had taken the interview? 23 A: The audio tape would have been turned 24 in at the Forest Detachment, I suspect, to Detective 25 Sergeant Wright and from there at some point it was
2831 obviously transcribed. I can't recall how that took 2 place or what the directions were from there. 3 Q: Did you have any opportunity to 4 review this transcription? 5 A: Prior to today, the review was, to my 6 knowledge, just in relation to the actual Inquiry. 7 Q: All right. If I can refer you to Tab 8 Number 6 of the book of documents in front of you, 9 Officer Martin, there is a CFB intelligence report which 10 has been marked as Exhibit P-413 in these proceedings. 11 And I'd ask you to turn to the second page 12 in which is marked as page 2. And you see the notation 13 as 29 July '95? It says "Martin and Dew"? 14 A: Yes, sir, I see that. 15 Q: "Taped interview with..." 16 And I'm going to ask that those names be 17 redacted. Do you see that? And you'll agree with me -- 18 you've had a chance to look at this document? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And you'll agree with me that that 21 corresponds with the information that you've just 22 provided us? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you if 25 you would turn to page 5 of that and if you go down to
2841 the fourth question that you ask there; do you see where 2 it says your name "Martin"? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: "Was there any mention at the time of 5 the American Indian Movement?" 6 Do you see that? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And when you were going over the 9 transcription that "movement" or that last word was 10 inaudible. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And do you -- do you recognize that 13 as being the question that was asked? 14 A: That would have been the question 15 that was asked. 16 Q: All right. And then your next 17 question, I wonder if you would just read that? 18 A: "Was there any mention at any time of 19 the Warrior's Society?" 20 Q: Okay. So you were asking about the 21 Warrior Society and not about the -- the Lawyer Society? 22 A: That's correct, sir. 23 Q: All right. Aside from taking this 24 interview and then passing the information along as 25 you've described, do you recall who you would have given
2851 the -- the tape from the interview to? 2 A: I can't recall that, sir. I would 3 have turned it in upon returning to the Forest 4 Detachment but I don't recall who I turned it in to. 5 Q: Did you have any involvement in terms 6 of follow-up on the information that is described in 7 this; first of all with respect to the suggestion that 8 there were -- that there was enough arsenal to blow up 9 the Camp? Did you have any involvement in that? 10 A: I've researched my notes and with 11 respect to follow-up, the following day there's an entry 12 on the 30th of July on page 26 at the bottom of the page. 13 Q: That's at the second page in, 14 Commissioner, at Tab Number 2 -- pardon me, Tab Number 3. 15 Go ahead, Officer. 16 A: "At 12:25 I received a call from 17 Detective Staff Sergeant Wright 18 requesting information on intelligence 19 and the possible use of an informant at 20 CFB Ipperwash, reference Native 21 occupation, and possibly intended 22 aggressive movement. Discussed the use 23 of an informant." 24 And subsequent to that I contacted the 25 Comm Centre and requested a -- a 10-29 and a CNI which is
2861 some background information on the person that I was 2 considering for that contact. 3 Q: Right. And at 13:05 there's an 4 address there and -- and that has been redacted in the 5 copy that has been filed as an exhibit. 6 A: That's correct, sir. 7 Q: Right. Just continue if you would. 8 A: That would have been the follow-up 9 that was limited to that statement conducted on my part. 10 Q: Okay. So I take you didn't -- you 11 didn't have any further assignment to do anything to 12 follow-up, to verify any of this information that you had 13 taken in this statement? 14 A: I believe there was discussions on 15 trying to identify who Andy might have been, and there 16 may have been contact with the First Nations officers 17 from Kettle Point at that time as to who would fit that 18 description. But I can't specifically recall doing that 19 or who would have been tasked with that detail. 20 Q: You don't have any note of that in 21 your -- in your notebook? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. Can you tell 24 us what your next involvement, Officer, in the Ipperwash 25 matter might have been?
2871 A: Again, on the 30th of July, following 2 that contact at 12:25 with Detective Staff Sergeant 3 Wright that I've described, I was again contacted at 2:05 4 and requested by Detective Staff Sergeant Wright to 5 arrange certain logistics for camping within the 6 Provincial Park. I can read those notes specifically, if 7 you request, sir. 8 Q: Would you please? 9 A: "Instructions received to grab a 10 trailer through contacts and have same 11 in place at the Ipperwash Provincial 12 Park and be at the Forest Detachment 13 for 7:00 p.m.. 14 Several calls made. Eventually access 15 gained to use [and I'll redact that 16 name] trailer, hauled in its place [and 17 again, I'll redact that name]. 18 Proceeded to Sarnia to confirm those 19 arrangements and then proceeded to my 20 residence to pack. At 6:00 p.m. I was 21 en route to the Forest Detachment, 22 arrived there at 6:50 p.m." 23 Q: And again, in fairness to the record, 24 it reads 18:50 p.m., correct? 25 A: That's correct, sir.
2881 Q: Okay. And at 19:15 hours you were 2 briefed by Superintendent Parkin? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Continue from there, if you would, 5 please? 6 A: "Briefed by Superintendent Parkin and 7 Detective Staff Sergeant Wright. 8 Advised we were to be in the Park for 9 intelligence purposes for the general 10 safety of the public, not to divulge to 11 anyone why we were present and to 12 maintain an open line of communication 13 directly with uniform and admin. 14 staff." 15 And then I've got: 16 "Switched to Detective Sergeant 17 Hudson's vehicle and at 7:45 p.m. 18 proceeded to the Provincial Park. At 19 8:20 p.m. logged in trailer set up." 20 Q: Okay. Well, let me just -- let me 21 just back up and ask you some questions that arise out of 22 that. 23 This is what we've -- we've heard 24 something about, that there was an undercover operation 25 that essentially involved people posing as campers within
2891 the boundaries of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And you've already described, as part 4 of your notes, that that's what you were briefed on and 5 that was the objective -- 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: -- set out the objective? 8 Essentially it -- it was two-fold, if I'm not mistaken. 9 It was to gather intelligence, yes? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And to deal with public safety issues 12 as they may arise? 13 A: That's correct, sir. 14 Q: All right. Had you any additional 15 instructions, perhaps to -- to deal with any situation 16 that might arise from a public safety perspective in 17 terms of your being undercover? 18 A: Well, from a public safety 19 perspective, obviously if it was a situation where there 20 could have been bodily harm, or where there was a 21 situation that could have resulted in -- in bodily harm 22 or -- or something serious of that nature, then we were 23 instructed that we could compromise our position as being 24 in a plainclothes detail, to ensure that no harm would 25 come to any individuals as a result of any aggression by
2901 anybody. 2 Q: And we've heard something about a 3 plan called Project Maple that had to do with the 4 potential occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 5 You were familiar with that? 6 A: Yes, sir. That was the name of the 7 project. 8 Q: And did you have any role in the 9 preparation of -- of that project? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Okay. But certainly the -- the 12 undercover camping operations would be part and parcel of 13 that? 14 A: Would be part and parcel of the 15 investigative capacity, but not part and parcel of a plan 16 if it was in existence. 17 Q: All right. And you were assigned to 18 -- to then go into the Park. You were together with 19 other officers and I'm not sure if you've described who 20 they were. 21 Can you tell us who they were? 22 A: Yes. Detective Constable Mark Dew, 23 at that time Sergeant Marg Eve, and Constable Karen Dunn. 24 Q: All right. And in terms of the 25 operation, as you've described it to gather intelligence,
2911 particularly, what were your instructions insofar as 2 gathering that intelligence, recording it and passing it 3 along? 4 What would -- what would happen, what was 5 the practice? 6 A: The -- there was a log book that was 7 assigned to the camping detail, one (1) log book for 8 consistency purposes. That log book was maintained by an 9 identified individual and in this first camping 10 assignment the keeper of the log book was Detective 11 Constable Mark Dew. 12 In addition to any observations that we 13 made, and that were recorded, either in the log book or 14 recorded individually in our notebooks, we were to keep 15 the command post or whoever was at the command post, 16 officer in charge, familiar or advised of any -- anything 17 that had occurred, anything of relevancy or significance. 18 Q: And in addition to that, you have 19 your own personal notes, copies of which we've provided, 20 and you've been referring to. 21 Did you also make a record of some of the 22 same observations that would have been in the log book 23 that you've just described? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Would I be wrong in describing that
2921 log book as a -- as the campers' log, or how was it 2 described? 3 A: I think that would be an accurate 4 statement, sir. 5 Q: All right. With respect to the 6 taking of those notes or the creation of that log detail, 7 did you have any specific instructions or was there a 8 protocol in how that was to be done? 9 A: I can't recall the specific 10 instructions. I know that there was, you know, obviously 11 great thought into the placement of us within that 12 Provincial Park and obviously, you know, they did not 13 want our positions compromised unless we had to and if it 14 was only to be in the -- in the best interest of public 15 safety. 16 Q: So if there were an incident, for 17 example, where somebody might be in danger as the result 18 of, perhaps, a confrontation, then you would otherwise 19 not compromise your -- your position? 20 A: Unless it was warranted. 21 Q: All right, thank you. You've 22 indicated that before you were deployed that you were 23 briefed or debriefed by Superintendent Parkin and 24 Sergeant Mark Wright? 25 A: Yes, sir.
2931 Q: I take it that Detective Staff 2 Sergeant Wright as he then was, was your supervisor at 3 that point? 4 A: Yes, sir, he was. 5 Q: Do you recall what you were told 6 insofar as that briefing, or is that what you've already 7 explained to us? 8 Do you have anything to add to that? 9 A: My recollection is just what I've 10 explained. 11 Q: I want to refer you to Tab number 8, 12 if I may, in the book of documents in front of you. 13 That's Inquiry document 2000722. 14 And it is a photocopy of some eight (8) 15 handwritten pages. You'll see at the top there are the 16 names of certain individuals, Sergeant M. Eve, Detective 17 Constable M. Dew, Detective Constable C. Martin and PC K. 18 Dunn. 19 I take it those are the individuals you've 20 described to us? 21 A: That's correct, sir. 22 Q: There appears to be an initial just 23 to the -- to the side of that. Do you know whose initial 24 that is? 25 A: I believe the initials are JV, which
2941 could be Janet Vandenberg, I'm not sure, sir. 2 Q: Right. And you'll see the first 3 notation is Sunday, July 30th of 1995. 4 A: That's correct, sir. 5 Q: If I can take you just to the very 6 last entry at page 8. It says, "End of report", and 7 you'll correct me if I'm not reading this correctly, 8 right? 9 It says: 10 "End of report prepared by Dew M.R." 11 A: I believe that's M.K. 12 Q: M.K.? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Thank you. You've already described 15 for us that Mark Dew was in charge of the -- this first 16 detail insofar as creating this log. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. If I can refer you to 19 your notes of that same date. Commissioner, you'll find 20 this at your Tab 23. Again, it's pages 2 and 5 following 21 the last blue sheet inserted into the document. I 22 believe that's your page 26, Officer. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2951 A: Would you like me to read from the 26 2 forward, sir? 3 Q: If you would, please. And I guess 4 the only question that I want to ask you is that: Does 5 your notations there correspond, at least in part, with 6 the notations that are made in the camper's log at Tab 7 Number 8? 8 A: Yes, on page 28 of my notebook it is 9 consistent with the commencement of page 1 of the 10 camper's log. 11 Q: I think I've neglected to ask that 12 that camper's log be made an exhibit and I -- I perhaps 13 should do so at this time. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1195, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1195: Document Number 2000722. 17 Camper's Log, July 30 - 18 August 03, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: If I can just get a moment please. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Having looked at the camper's log,
2961 and I know you have before coming here today, and you'll 2 agree with me that there are no incidences of any 3 particular -- well, let me be careful in -- in how I put 4 this, but there isn't anything that stands out in terms 5 of your -- in terms of recording anything of aggressive 6 movement, I think, as you've described it? 7 A: There was some notes recorded as a 8 result of some observations that we made during that 9 first camping stint, yes. 10 Q: All right. Well let me -- let me 11 take you to Exhibit P-1195, that's the camper's log from 12 the 31st of July of '95, and in particular, if I can turn 13 you to the -- to the second page at 20:20 hours. 14 "Observe a blue Trans Am on Matheson 15 Drive..." 16 There's a -- what I take it to be a 17 license tag number. 18 "...three (3) male Natives, male in 19 front passenger seat identified by 20 Detective Constable Martin as Dudley 21 George." 22 Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Okay. Do you have, first of all, an 25 independent recollection of that event that's described
2971 here by Officer Dew? 2 A: I do have somewhat of an independent 3 recollection, yes, sir. 4 Q: And having read this, can you tell us 5 what that's about and what does that entry indicate? 6 A: The -- on that date at that time, as 7 you described, there was a blue Trans Am that had pulled 8 along side of the barrier separating Matheson Drive from 9 the Provincial Park. 10 There was three (3) male Natives in that 11 blue Trans Am that exited the vehicle, and from there 12 forward proceeded onto the Provincial Park. Dudley 13 George was the primary initiator of the incident that 14 followed. 15 Q: Okay. Tell us about that incident, 16 if you would? 17 A: If I could refer to my notes and read 18 directly from my notes -- 19 Q: You'll find that at page 30 of your 20 notes. 21 A: Page -- it starts on the bottom of 22 page 29 and reflects the times 20:20 or 8:20 p.m. 23 Q: All right. Go ahead. 24 A: "While at the beach observed three 25 male Native parties pull along side of
2981 the Provincial Park fence and park 2 approximately one hundred (100) metres 3 south of the lake, operating a late 4 '70's model Trans Am Ontario licence [I 5 will not say the licence plate number]. 6 They exited the vehicle and approached 7 the fence and appeared to be saying 8 something to people who were walking 9 along the laneway to the beach area. 10 They then drove down to the waterfront 11 and initiated a conversation with an 12 older couple that lasted approximately 13 five (5) minutes. They then approached 14 another young couple just leaving the 15 beach area on the CFB side. 16 PC Dew then spoke to the older couple. 17 and I asked the man who had been placed 18 -- playing with his son, what he had 19 heard them say. He indicated to me 20 that they were taunting people. I then 21 approached the young couple who had 22 briefly spoke to the occupants of the 23 Trans Am. They stated that the 24 occupants asked them if they had a 25 permit. A witness replied, A permit
2991 for what? 2 They replied, A permit to use the 3 beach. The witness replied, No. They 4 then saw he had to -- they then said he 5 had to have a permit to use the beach 6 and that either this year or next year 7 the beach at the Camp was going to be 8 theirs as well. 9 This information was discussed with 10 Detective Constable Dew. He in turn -- 11 he in turn made proper notification. 12 At 9:15 p.m. back at the beach --" 13 Q: Let me just stop you there, if I may. 14 When you talk about a beach and that there was some 15 suggestion to these -- to these people on the beach that 16 they required a permit, do you know what -- can you 17 recall for us what beach that was being referred to? 18 A: The beach within the Provincial Park. 19 Q: Okay. And do you have any 20 recollection, or do you have any note as to the manner in 21 which this information was received by these folks? 22 A: No, sir, I don't. 23 Q: All right. For example, could you -- 24 could you tell whether or not they were -- whether they 25 were shaken or not shaken by it; whether they were upset
3001 by it or not upset? 2 A: I have no recollection of any 3 physical observations I made about them shaking or 4 anything like that. I can't honestly recall if their 5 verbal expressions were such that indicated frustration 6 or otherwise. 7 Q: Okay. Continue on, if you would 8 then, your entry at -- is that 21:15 hours? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: You're back on the beach? 11 A: "A group of campers was in the 12 process of removing a boat from the 13 water, well onto Provincial Park 14 property, when the blue Trans Am had 15 parked right beside on Matheson Drive. 16 Dudley George was well onto Park 17 property, loudly confronting the 18 campers removing the boat. He was 19 explaining loudly that they were using 20 his laneway and his land. He became 21 aggressive to the point of calling one 22 (1) man on to fight before the campers 23 departed and he did too in the TA -- 24 Trans Am. Dewy made [being Detective 25 Constable Dew] made further
3011 notifications as a result of this. We 2 maintained surveillance on the beach 3 area for the remainder of the night." 4 Q: And, sir, at Tab 8 again, the campers 5 log, when you mention that this information was discussed 6 with Officer Dew, you see that that's also recorded in -- 7 in the log book? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And in fact, there's quite a bit more 10 detail, I'm going to suggest to you, in the actual log 11 book. If you look at page 3, for example. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And that would be consistent with the 16 manner in which you would have taken the notes, the 17 notebook, I think, your own personal notebook wouldn't 18 necessarily contain all the details, but sufficient to 19 refresh your memory, as the need might arise. 20 Is that -- is that right? 21 A: That's correct, sir. 22 Q: Okay. In terms of again the practice 23 of making the notations in the log book, can you tell us 24 when that was done? 25 For example, did you see Officer Dew
3021 making these -- making these notes? 2 A: I don't recall. Generally, the 3 practice is as soon as practical after an event has taken 4 place and I can't recall on that evening at what point 5 they were made. 6 I do recall that he would have -- we would 7 have went back to the trailer because I've indicated that 8 he made notifications and it is possible that we've sat 9 down at that time, or he sat down at that time and -- and 10 then we returned as my notes indicated, at 21:15 back at 11 the beach. 12 Q: Okay. If I can ask you to turn to 13 page 4 of the campers' log. You -- it would seem that 14 Officer Dew has recorded the conversation, perhaps not 15 verbatim, but certainly recorded the conversation or the 16 exchange as between the boater and Dudley that you've 17 just described for us. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Did you have any concerns with 20 respect to public safety at that point in time, Officer, 21 that would have -- that would have perhaps made you 22 compromise your -- your position? 23 Were you worried at all, let me put it 24 that way, about public safety issues, with respect to the 25 boater?
3031 A: I was not worried about the boater. 2 I am of the opinion that I was more concerned for Dudley 3 George's personal safety. 4 Had a fight erupted, we would have 5 obviously had to compromise our position. 6 Q: And why is that? 7 A: The boater was substantially bigger 8 than Dudley George. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And looked much more capable than 11 Dudley George. 12 Q: At the end of that confrontation as 13 you've -- as you've indicated, and as is noted in the 14 campers' log, what happened as a result of that? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: In addition to any notification, sir? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I don't recall anything further being 21 conducted as a result of what observations were made 22 there. 23 Q: You remained in the Park from August 24 the 1st through the 4th? 25 A: Yes, sir.
3041 Q: And do you have anything either in 2 your notebook or in the campers' log of significance that 3 you could tell us about? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: The only thing that I can indicate, 8 sir, is that forming part of the public safety aspect, as 9 a result of the observations that we had made at some 10 point in time, I formed the opinion that it wasn't 11 perhaps in the best interests of some people to be 12 proceeding over to the CFB Ipperwash and I -- I do note 13 that I did speak to, in one (1) case, a person who was 14 proceeding on to CFB Ipperwash and... 15 Q: Tell us about what you mean that you 16 didn't think it was in the interest of public safety and 17 who was it that you would have spoke to. Perhaps not 18 necessarily giving us their name, but a general 19 description of what you might have told this person. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: You'll have to bear with me for a 24 minute there, sir. 25 Q: Certainly.
3051 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: On the 2nd of August, on Wednesday 4 evening, 1995, on page 34 of my notes, at 23:30 hours, 5 which was 11:30 p.m. 6 And my notes are recorded as follows: 7 "Male Native party approximately six 8 (6) feet tall, a hundred and eighty- 9 five (185) to a hundred and ninety 10 (190) pounds, black hair observed 11 exiting from the campground accompanied 12 with female party. 13 Young proceeded onto CFB and up into 14 the dunes. Approached re safety not 15 realizing party was a Native." 16 And then my notes continue on: 17 "Surveillance maintained throughout the 18 evening." 19 Q: And what does that mean, Officer? 20 What was the significance of that? 21 A: I would have to reflect to the 22 camper's log and there's an entry made or completed by 23 Detective Constable Dew at 23:30 on -- on the same night 24 which would be page 6 of the camper's log. And I'll read 25 you exactly what's in the log and I'll use this to
3061 refresh my memory: 2 "Martin observes young couple walking 3 from campground to Army side of 4 Matheson. Martin approaches then male 5 party states he lives on the other side 6 and asked Martin if he had a problem 7 with this. 8 Once it was confirmed that he resided 9 over there and obviously the female was 10 apparently not in harm's way, nothing 11 further was done with that." 12 Q: I take it that it was your intention 13 then to prevent non-residents from that side from going 14 into that area? 15 A: Not necessarily non-resident but 16 people who may not have been familiar with the ongoing 17 events at that time and the existing tensions or the 18 magnitude of the event. 19 Q: Aside from that event, is there 20 anything else of significance during that period of time? 21 That is from the first of August through the 4th of 22 August when you were at -- on that detail? 23 A: No. There's other events recorded 24 but nothing of -- of merit. 25 Q: All right. I understand that you
3071 would have then left that detail and others might have 2 taken your place? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Do you know who those others were? 5 A: I would have to refer to the camper's 6 log under Section 9 to refresh my memory. And there's 7 indication there that -- and that indication was when I 8 proceeded back in for the second stint that we relieved 9 Constable Gast, Constable Papka, Constable Streefkirk and 10 Constable Bob Martin. 11 Q: And for the record you are referring 12 to the document that's found at Tab 9, it's Inquiry 13 Document 2000724, yes? 14 A: That's correct, sir. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps that can be 16 marked as the next exhibit. And Commissioner, what I 17 would intend to do is simply finish this last part. It 18 has to do with a second undercover detail that Officer 19 Martin was involved in and perhaps we might break at that 20 point for the day if that's all right. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1196, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1196: Document Number 2000724.
3081 Camper's Log, August 07 and 2 08, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: You've indicated, sir, that in 6 looking at the camper's log from the 7th of August of '95 7 that that refreshes your memory insofar as the officers 8 that would have relieved you, when you had left the 9 detail on the 4th of August? 10 A: That's correct, sir. 11 Q: And you would have come back in and 12 relieved them at the same time. 13 Were you with the same -- the same 14 officers that you had been with previously? 15 A: For the second stint? 16 Q: For the second operation, yes, or 17 second part of that operation. 18 A: Constable Karen Dunn and myself 19 completed the second phase. 20 Q: And can you tell us, sir, who would 21 have prepared the notes that we see at page 9? Pardon 22 me, at Tab Number 9, 1196? 23 A: Those notes were completed by 24 Constable Dunn. 25 Q: And if we look at pages 40 and 41 of
3091 your notebook, does that deal with that same time period, 2 sir? 3 A: Yes, sir. It starts on page 40 and 4 that week concludes on the -- page 42. 5 Q: All right. And I wonder in reference 6 to both your notes at pages 40 as well as the camper's 7 log at page -- pardon me at -- for August the 7th of 1995 8 can you just tell us what it is that's recorded there and 9 the significance of -- of what's recorded? 10 A: My notebooks source my observations 11 to the log book. On the 7th of August on page 1 of the 12 log 1995 it was a Monday at 19:13 hours the entry as 13 recorded by Constable Dunn: 14 "Heard one (1) gunshot blast 15 approximately 16 four hundred (400) metres east of our 17 location. At 19:19 heard two (2) more 18 gunshots approximately six hundred 19 (600) to eight hundred (800) metres 20 northeast of our location." 21 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you there if 22 I may. 23 What property -- on what property were 24 those -- would those gunshots have been situated given 25 what you've described here?
3101 A: It would have been the Department of 2 National Defence property. 3 Q: All right. Continue. 4 A: "19:19 heard two (2) more gunshots 5 approximately six hundred (600) to 6 eight hundred (800) metres northeast of 7 our location. 8 19:30 gathering of approximately ten 9 (10) to twelve (12) at beach campsite 10 by warrior flag." 11 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you there if 12 I may. Where is the -- first of all what is the warrior 13 flag and where is that located? 14 A: Occupants of CFB Ipperwash had set up 15 a -- an area for fires approximately three-quarters 16 (3/4's) of a kilometre or a kilometre northeast of the 17 Provincial Park boundary on the beach side of the dunes 18 on the DND property there and there was a makeshift flag 19 pole with a warrior flag on that pole. 20 Q: I think we've had some evidence 21 describing that so I won't ask you to -- to get into 22 that. I think we're referring to the same thing. All 23 right. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: It's a red -- a red flag with a
3111 yellow insignia? 2 A: Yes, sir, it's a red flag with a 3 yellow insignia and a picture of a native on the flag. 4 Q: All right. Just continue if you 5 would then. 6 A: "20:05 one (1) gunshot." 7 There's a notation to the right of that: 8 "One (1) gunshot]. Shots sound like 9 high powered rifle and shotgun. 10 20:09, one (1) shot. 20:11, one (1) 11 shot. 20:13, one (1) shot. 20:22, one 12 (1) shot. 20:23, one (1) shot. 20:29, 13 one (1) shot. 20:30, one (1) shot. 14 20:35, one (1) shot." 15 Q: There's also a -- an entry that 16 occurs just adjacent to the entry at 20:05 hours, "one 17 (1) gunshot" and I wonder if you might just read that and 18 tell us what that means? 19 A: Again to the right of 20:05: 20 "One (1) gunshot. Shots sound like 21 high powered rifle and shotgun." 22 Q: Had you any intelligence or any 23 information whatsoever about the existence of firearms 24 within the Army Camp? 25
3121 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: There was intelligence and I can't 4 comment on the reliability but there was intelligence 5 obviously from that statement that I had -- had taken 6 prior to that was taken on the 29th of July and I also 7 through conversations with other officers believed to be 8 reliable that some of the occupants were seen previously 9 with firearms. 10 Q: What you heard and what's recorded 11 here is not necessarily automatic gunfire unless it's a 12 single round that would have been discharged. 13 A: It would be hard to determine if it 14 was automatic if it was just one (1) round that was 15 fired. 16 Q: All right. And -- and from what 17 you've heard and from what you recorded did you determine 18 whether or not the fire -- gunfire that you heard and 19 recorded posed any threat to anybody? 20 A: That would be hard to determine. 21 Again I heard the shot but did not hear any resulting 22 impacts as a result of those shots. 23 Q: As a result of recording this 24 information do you know what happened with that 25 information? What did you do?
3131 Did you have any role in reporting this 2 for example? 3 A: It was reported to the Command Post. 4 Q: And Officer Martin, do you have 5 corresponding notations in your -- in your notebook with 6 respect to the gunfire? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: No, sir, I do not. I have that 11 reference, "Observations maintained in log book," at the 12 top of page 41. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Aside from -- from the gunshots that 17 are recorded on 7th of August of '95, is there anything 18 else, having reviewed this, that it is of particular 19 significance to the -- to the detail that you were on? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: During that second phase of camping, 24 we had seen some more incidents that indicated, I think, 25 acts of intimidation or generally nuisance -- nuisance
3141 behaviour. 2 Q: All right. Would you refer to those, 3 please, and just read those to the record, if you would. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: On page 2, under the Tab 10. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: "At 22:30 hours Constable Dunn has an 12 entry: 13 "Dark colour, possibly brown, 4 door 14 Chevy Nova. Very loud exhaust. 15 Westbound Matheson Drive, fast rate of 16 speed." 17 Followed by another entry: 18 "Jack lighting around campground, 19 northbound along beach." 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: I'm sorry, you're referring to...? 24 A: On Tuesday the 8th of August, under 25 Tab number 10.
3151 Q: Pardon me, I was -- I was asking you 2 to -- to look at -- at August the 7th, and we'll come to 3 the 8th very shortly. 4 If we could just finish up with the 7th of 5 August, that is at document -- at Tab number 9 and it's 6 been marked as 1196. 7 A: Yes, sorry, sir. 8 Q: Right. You've described the gunshots 9 already. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And beyond that, is there anything 12 that would be consistent of what you've described as -- 13 as public safety issues or nuisance, I think you've 14 indicated. 15 Q: At 23:50 hours, at the bottom of page 16 2, on the 7th of August, '95, Constable Dunn has an 17 entry: 18 "Olds vehicle stopped on Matheson. 19 Talked with occupants in dark blue 20 Trans Am. The Olds left. The Trans Am 21 continued to beach camp, hooting, 22 hollering, stereo blaring, driving 23 fast. 24 At warrior flag, did doughnut. 25 Headed back towards Matheson Drive,
3161 stopped the vehicle. Yelling, doors 2 slamming. At 23:52, Trans Am left." 3 Earlier on -- to continue on with that 4 observation would have been into Thursday morning, on the 5 8th of August on page 3, 00:25. 6 "Observed ATV with two (2) male 7 Natives, twenty (20) to twenty-two (22) 8 years. Came westbound Matheson Drive, 9 swerving and driving fast. Two (2) 10 young male campers were walking down 11 fence line on Provincial Park side. 12 The ATV drove up to fence, high beamed 13 the campers, ten (10) to fifteen (15) 14 seconds. 15 ATV drove up and down dunes, 16 approximately ten (10) minutes. 17 ATV came back to barriers, high beamed 18 us. Got off ATV. Sat on rocks, 19 smoking. ATV went up Matheson Drive, 20 parked for approximately one (1) 21 minute. 22 Drove back to beach, headed north 23 towards camp. 24 01:00, ATV came back, high beamed us on 25 the Provincial Park beach. Drove up
3171 dunes and left on Matheson Drive. All 2 quiet." 3 Q: And you've indicated, in reviewing 4 the document that's found then at Tab Number 10, Inquiry 5 Document 2000725, that there were again further incidents 6 of -- of nuisance and such. 7 Is that how you described it, first of 8 all? 9 A: Yes. To go back to Tab 10, page 2 -- 10 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that be made - 11 - made the next exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1197, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1197: Document Number 2000725. 15 Camper's Log, August 08, 16 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Continue, Officer. 20 A: Tuesday 8th of August '95, page 21 number 2, entry at 22:30. 22 "Dark colour, possibly brown, 4 door 23 Chevy Nova. Very loud exhaust. 24 Westbound Matheson Drive, fast rate of 25 speed. Jacklighting around campground,
3181 northbound along beach." 2 Turning over to page 3: 3 "22:48, vehicle returned on Matheson 4 Drive, did a donut, pulled back on the 5 CIB side of Matheson Drive. 6 Four (4) occupants, male, mid 20's to 7 30's. Revved engine, honked horn 8 numerous times before shutting car off. 9 Blue Trans Am came down Matheson, down 10 to beach, turned around and left via 11 Matheson Drive. 12 22:50, four (4) occupants of brown 13 vehicle started jacklighting campers on 14 Provincial Park beach. Remained in 15 vehicle for approximately fifteen (15) 16 minutes. 17 Kept jacklighting two (2) young females 18 who sat on barrier rocks on campground 19 side. Exited their vehicle, put the 20 hood up, pretended to be looking at the 21 engine. 22 Young females asked if something was 23 wrong with their car. Native, no we're 24 just admiring it. Would you like to 25 come over here and admire it too?
3191 No, replied from female campers." 2 Turning over to page 4. 3 "At 11:20 p.m. ERT was contacted and 4 two (2) ERT members were dispatched to 5 standby in case of problems." 6 Q: What sort of problems were -- were 7 anticipated and why would it be necessary to dispatch two 8 (2) members from ERT? 9 A: I think that was as a precaution 10 because we weren't sure, you know, these four (4) people 11 had been acting in a -- in a manner that was certainly 12 unbecoming and had been for some time, so I think there 13 was just a precaution -- 14 Q: That's the driving around and 15 jacklighting -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- the campers, that sort of thing? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Yeah. Carry on. 20 A: "23:32 young female asked group of 21 Natives for a cigarette. 22 Male Native replied, yep. 23 Young female asked Native to bring it 24 [I think it says] over to her. 25 Male Native. No, you come over here
3201 and get it. 2 Young female. The sign says I can't go 3 over there. 4 Male Native. That's our land over 5 there as well, but I'll invite you over 6 here anyway. 7 Two (2) young females proceeded over to 8 CFB side of Matheson Drive. 9 23:48, ERT members group and Zacher 10 advised to proceed down to area on camp 11 side and to encourage young females to 12 remain on Provincial Park property. 13 Root and Zacher carry out detail and 14 recorded names of the two (2) fifteen 15 (15) year old girls. 16 23:53, brown Chev Nova departed area at 17 a fast rate of speed, yelling and 18 screaming and jacklighting." 19 Q: And then you continue on, there are 20 entries on into the early morning hours of the 9th of 21 August of '95? 22 A: That's correct, sir. 23 "00:34, two (2) young males, one (1) 24 young female observed exiting CFB side 25 from dunes. Proceeded onto campground.
3211 Names recorded by Zacher en route. 2 Three (3) youths reported seeing 3 flashlights and hearing voices in the 4 dunes." 5 Q: And there's really not much of a 6 significance beyond that? 7 A: No, sir. 8 "1:16 blue Trans Am, doughnuts, 9 several, two hundred (200) yards in. 10 Left the area." 11 Q: All right. Let me just back you up, 12 if I may. If you could look at the entry at 23:32 when 13 it's recorded that a young female had asked -- asked for 14 a cigarette. 15 Now is this a conversation that you would 16 have overheard or that Officer Dunn would have overheard? 17 A: I can't recall if it's one (1) that I 18 overheard and I can't -- 19 Q: You don't have any independent 20 recollection, I take it -- 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: -- from that answer? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And you see where it says -- at least 25 it reports the young female as saying:
3221 "The sign says I can't go over there." 2 Do you recall what the sign was? 3 A: I believe that sign was posted by 4 DND, Department of National Defence, to remain off CFB 5 Ipperwash property. 6 Q: All right. And I take it from that 7 answer that when the -- the invitation was to come over 8 and get the cigarette, that's the side that the 9 individual was on that was offering? 10 A: That's correct, sir. 11 Q: And do you know what land that the 12 individual, that's described as a male Native, is 13 referring to and when it's reported that he says, "That's 14 our land over there as well?" 15 A: I believe he was referring to the 16 Provincial Park. 17 Q: At Tab Number 11 there is some 18 entries from Wednesday, August the 9th of 1995. There's 19 two (2) pages that are marked as Exhibit 2000 -- pardon 20 me, Inquiry Document 2000726. That's part of the 21 camper's log that -- from that date, yes? 22 A: That's correct, sir. 23 Q: Can we have that made the next 24 exhibit please, it would be 11... 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1198, Your Honour.
3231 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1198: Document Number 2000726. 4 Camper's Log, August 09 and 5 10, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: And what's recorded on there of -- of 9 significance, Officer Martin? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Significance -- not really of much 14 significance but there appears to be a lot of activity at 15 the campsite that's down on the beach on CFB property. 16 Q: And that's the campsite that you had 17 described earlier where the -- the makeshift flag pole 18 and the warriors flag, I think, as you've described it, 19 was located? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. In terms of, A lot of 22 activity, what kind of activity is recorded there? 23 A: "16:45, traffic flow increased 24 throughout afternoon. Red Chev pick-up 25 with flatbed and trailer down Matheson
3241 Drive, northbound on beach. Trailer 2 had port-a-potties [looks like port-a- 3 potty] on it. It stopped at the 4 warrior flag. Unloaded same. 5 17:20, second port-a-potty taken down 6 by same vehicle and unloaded same at 7 warrior flag. 8 17:30, blue Chev pick-up, red Nova 9 Chev, white Chev four (4) door parked 10 on beach two hundred (200) yards north 11 of Matheson. Five (5) to seven (7) 12 males gathered around. Meeting lasted 13 thirty (30) to forty (40) minutes. 14 Traffic flow continued, average 15 throughout evening." 16 Q: And aside from the meeting that 17 lasted thirty (30) or forty (40) minutes, there's -- 18 there's nothing to record, for example, what they were 19 doing during the course of this meeting? 20 A: No. Again I -- I didn't complete 21 these notes so I -- I'm not sure why the word, "meeting" 22 was used. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And I have no independent 25 recollection of -- of what they were doing for that
3251 thirty (30) or forty (40) minute period. 2 Q: Okay. Carry on then, if you would 3 please? 4 A: On to page 2 of the 9th of August, at 5 the top of page 2: 6 "Traffic extremely light. 23:45, 7 observed white four (4) door early 80's 8 Cadillac westbound on Matheson Drive. 9 Fast rate of speed. Stereo blaring. 10 Went towards beach camp. Heard four 11 (4) loud bangs, possibly muffled 12 gunshots or low powered rifle. 13 23:57, vehicle departed, driving 14 erratically. 15 00:09, On the 10th of August, '95, red 16 and white GMC pick up truck, early 17 '80's, westbound Matheson to beach 18 camp, doughnuts - three (3). Left via 19 Matheson Drive." 20 Q: And Officer, from the entry at 23:45, 21 where it indicates with respect to the four (4) loud 22 bangs, I take it "possibly muffled gunshots" I take it 23 that the recorder was not sure. 24 And do you have any independent 25 recollection of hearing -- of hearing anything like that?
3261 A: I have no independent recollection of 2 that particular incident and -- 3 Q: And I've looked at your notes and 4 there's no entry of any such thing in your notes as well? 5 A: That's correct, sir. 6 Q: All right. I take it the last day of 7 the detail would have been the 10th of August, 1995, 8 which is a Thursday? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: And that's -- the campers' log is 11 located at Tab 12 of the -- of the Brief of documents, 12 Inquiry document 2000727. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Do you have that in front of you? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And can we have that marked the next 19 exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1199, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1199: Document Number 2000727. 23 Camper's Log, August 10 and 24 11, 1995. 25
3271 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: And would you, officer, just in the 3 same fashion, go ahead and indicate anything of 4 significance in those notes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: At 13:00 there's an entry on the 10th 9 of August, '95, down towards the bottom, going to be the 10 fourth entry from the bottom: 11 "Appears to be erecting two (2) large 12 shelters in vicinity of flag pole." 13 This again is referring to that 14 encampment. 15 "Several people came and went 16 throughout afternoon, including two (2) 17 tractors with grating attachments. 18 Activity continued through evening, 19 more so than usual." 20 The remainder of the observations pertain 21 to vehicles being in and out. 22 Q: All right, so that's the kind of 23 information that would be recorded; vehicle traffic, if 24 any of them were driving fast, any of them were -- had 25 their stereos on loud, that sort of thing?
3281 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: As well as the other things that 3 you've already indicated. 4 As I understand it, there would have been 5 some knowledge on the part of the Park wardens, first of 6 all, that you and the others that you've indicated, were 7 in the Park in an undercover capacity? 8 A: Yes, sir. They were aware that we'd 9 been inserted into the Provincial Park. 10 Q: And do you recall the names or any of 11 those individuals who might have been so aware? 12 A: I recall one (1), perhaps two (2) 13 names of some of the Park wardens. 14 Q: Do you know -- can you recall whether 15 or not you had any discussions about the Park wardens, 16 particularly with respect to the gunfire that would have 17 been heard coming from, as you've described it, the DND 18 property? 19 A: I don't have a specific recollection 20 of telling them, you know, at a date and time of an 21 event. 22 However, something pertaining to the 23 gunshots would be something of a personal safety element 24 and I'm sure that I would have shared that with the Park 25 wardens, because it's of a personal safety issue.
3291 Q: And you have notes from -- or you 2 made notes, rather, in your own notebook from August 11th 3 to the 14th? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And at the end of those notes, 9 officer, there's a reference to a meeting at Forest 10 Detachment at 15:00 hours with Provincial Constable 11 Blanchard, Provincial Constable Ternovan and Detective 12 Constable Martin, that is yourself? 13 Right, do you have that? 14 A: What page are you referring to, sir? 15 Q: Well, the last entry, and I think 16 that that would be at the end of August the 14th. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Sorry, Commissioner, I thought I had 21 a -- a copy on hand of that. 22 A: On the 14th of August at the bottom 23 of page 43, I have an entry: 24 "Arrangements made to have Curtis 25 Barber replace Andre Clelland --"
3301 Q: I think I probably am -- am incorrect 2 in that, and I'll see if I can look for that over the 3 evening and perhaps we might continue at this point in 4 the morning. 5 This is as good a place as any, 6 Commissioner, to -- to break for the day, if that's all 7 right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 9 indicated that you expected to be finished by noon 10 tomorrow; is that still an accurate assessment? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: I would expect to be 12 finished well -- well before noon tomorrow. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Before noon 14 tomorrow -- 15 MR. DONALD WORME: I think that we can 16 get through the balance of what Officer Martin has to 17 testify to. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well this is 19 as good a time as any to break for the day. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 22 now and reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Is 23 that fair enough? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is
3311 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, March the 28th at 9:00 2 a.m. 3 4 (WITNESS RETIRES) 5 6 --- Upon adjourning at 5:17 p.m. 7 8 9 10 11 Certified Correct, 12 13 14 15 _________________ 16 Carol Geehan, Ms. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25