1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 22nd, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 9 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 10 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 11 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 14 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 15 Jennifer McAleer ) 16 17 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 18 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 19 20 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 21 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 6 George McKenzie Speck, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 290 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-1159 Document Number 2005565. Resume of 4 Det. Sgt. George McKenzie Speck. 14 5 P-1160 Document 2005479. Handwritten notebook 6 entries of George Speck, July 17, 1993 7 to September 30, 1995. 26 8 P-1161 Document number 3000881. Letter to 9 Marion Boyd, Attorney General of 10 Ontario from MaryLou LaPratte, 11 July 19, 1993. 35 12 P-1162 Document number 2000619. Letter to 13 George Speck from Peter Hegler Re: 14 Ownership of Matheson Drive with 15 attachments, December 06, 1993. 45 16 P-1163 Document number 2001188. Fax from D/C 17 Speck to Inspector Terry Hall Re: 18 Shooting CFB Ipperwash, June 01, 1994. 74 19 P-1164 Document number 2005349. Affidavit of 20 George Speck, August 04, 1998. 81 21 P-1165 Document number 2001339, Letter 22 from D/C Speck to the Superintendent 23 OPP, 1994. 93 24 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1166 Document number 2001338. Letter from 4 Staff Sgt. Lacroix to Lambton County 5 Detachment Officers, May 04, 1994. 97 6 P-1167 Document number 2004282. General 7 Occurrence Report, May 30, 1996 116 8 P-1168 Document number 2002439. Occurrence 9 Reports, June 27 and 28, 1995. 130 10 P-1169 Document number 7000261, Memo from 11 C. Ashford-Smith. Re: Alleged Tire 12 slashing incident. July 06, 1995. 142 13 P-1170 Document number 1002414. General 14 Occurrence Report, July 29, 1995. 158 15 P-1171 Document number 2004305, Intelligence 16 Report, D/C Speck, August 4, 1995 168 17 P-1172 Document number 2004318, Intelligence 18 Report, D/C Speck, August 16, 1995 173 19 P-1173 Document number 2004306. Intelligence 20 Report, D/C Speck. August 05, 1995 176 21 P-1174: Document number 2004307. Intelligence 22 Report, D/C. Speck, August 06, 1995 178 23 P-1175 Document number 2004310. Intelligence 24 Report, D/C. Speck. August 08, 1995 181 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1176 Document number 2004312, Intelligence 4 Report, D/C Speck. August 09, 1995 185 5 P-1177 Document number 2004317. Intelligence 6 Report, D/C. Speck, August 14, 1995 190 7 P-1178 Document number 2004319. General 8 Occurrence Report-Bail violation, fail 9 to appear, August 17, 1995 220 10 P-1179 Document number 2005502. General 11 Occurrence Report Re: Damage to Cruiser 12 (D/C Speck is the Complainant) September 13 04, 1995 223 14 P-1180 Document number 2001175. Will Say of 15 George Speck (undated). 225 16 P-1181 Document number 2001173. Information of 17 George Speck Re: Mischief (cruiser damage) 18 September 05, 1995. 233 19 P-1182 Document number 2001178. Information of 20 George Speck Re: Possession of weapon and 21 assault Peace Officer, September 05, 1995 234 22 P-1183 Document number 2005502. General 23 Occurrence Report Re: Picnic tables 24 (D/C Speck is the complainant) September 25 06, 1995. 246


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1184 Document number 2005502. General 4 Occurrence Report Re: Rock thrown at 5 car (D/C Speck is a witness) September 6 06, 1995 256 7 P-1185 Document number 2003884, Will Say with 8 attached handwritten notes of George 9 Speck (undated) 263 10 P-1186 Document number 2003315, Statement, 11 Interview report, and notebook entries of 12 Angela Baker, OPP Constable, September 13 07, 1995 265 14 P-1187 Document number 2001184. Information of 15 George Speck Re: mischief and theft, 16 September 7, 1995 278 17 P-1188 Document number 2001174. Speck's Will Say 18 and notes regarding David George and 19 Stacey George. Undated 279 20 P-1189 Document number 2001861. Sarnia Observer 21 article "Laying charges won't solve 22 Ipperwash dispute: lawyer" dated Feb. 23 13th, 1996 283 24 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1190 Document number 1002090. London Free 4 Press article "24 face rarely laid 5 charges in Ipperwash park takeover" 6 dated Feb. 13, 1996 284 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. Good morning, Mr. Worme, Mr. Speck. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 Commissioner, we call as the next witness 11 Detective Constable George Speck. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Speck, 16 how are you this morning? 17 MR. GEORGE SPECK: Fine, thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 morning. 20 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 21 22 GEORGE MCKENZIE SPECK, Sworn 23 24 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: Good morning, Officer Speck.


1 A: Good morning, sir. 2 Q: Perhaps, if I may ask you to turn 3 firstly to the brief of documents in front of you and if 4 you'll turn to Tab 1 there, sir. 5 Mr. Commissioner, you have a similar 6 document brief in front of you and at Tab 1 you will find 7 a resume. 8 If I can ask you, sir, that is your 9 resume? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And perhaps what I can do is just 12 briefly take you through that if I may. But before I do 13 that I should note that it bears Inquiry Document Number 14 2005565 and I would ask that that be made the next 15 exhibit please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1159, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1159. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1159: Document Number 2005565. 20 Resume of Det. Sgt. George 21 McKenzie Speck. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: The resume, Officer, would indicate 25 that you joined the OPP in September of 1965 as a


1 civilian radio dispatcher. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And subsequently you became a 4 Constable in 1967? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: You were initially stationed at the 7 Burlington OPP Detachment and I believe you've indicated 8 spent some ten (10) years there? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. The last three (3) years 11 of that particular tenure was spent as a plainclothes 12 investigator? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And ultimately you were brought into 15 the Detachment here in Forest, Ontario in 1977 as a 16 General Patrol Officer. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. It is that period of time 19 of course that we ultimately want to focus upon in terms 20 of asking for your testimony here, sir. 21 But just to go beyond that, you joined the 22 Lambton Country Crime Unit as a Detective Constable in 23 1995 and remained as such until 2002? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Your current rank is Detective


1 Constable. You are still with the OPP? 2 A: I'm a Detective Sergeant now. 3 Q: Detective Sergeant, pardon me. And 4 you were promoted to that rank in 2002? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. I just want to ask you, 7 sir, with respect to any kind of formal training or 8 education, formal training that is, with respect to First 9 Nations issues, can you tell us about that, whether you 10 have -- 11 A: I don't have any, sir. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: I do not have any. 14 Q: All right. You've nonetheless became 15 familiar and are familiar with First Nations issues and I 16 wonder if you would just tell us how you came to that 17 knowledge, please? 18 A: It's from working in and around 19 Kettle Point with the Kettle Point Police Service and 20 through the people on Kettle Point. 21 Q: And in addition to Kettle Point and 22 I'm going to -- I'm going to get into some detail on that 23 note, if I may with you. But in addition to Kettle Point 24 you also had occasion to work with other First Nations 25 communities in the -- in the area?


1 A: Yes, with Walpole Island Police, I 2 worked on Walpole Island quite often with the occurrences 3 down there helping their Police Service. 4 Q: When you say "their Police Service" 5 and I'm sorry to interrupt, that is the -- 6 A: The Walpole Island Police Service. 7 Q: All right. And that is a First 8 Nations Police Service? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes. Continue. 11 A: Those are the two (2) main First 12 Nations territories I'm familiar with. 13 Q: In terms of the Kettle Point -- 14 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation, you had some 15 dealings, I take it, with their Police Services? 16 A: Yes. We worked -- we worked very 17 close with them. We always double up and patrolled with 18 them. We'd take on -- back when I was on patrol, it was 19 a zone. It was called Zone 4 which was the Ipperwash/ 20 Kettle Point area. 21 And we always doubled up with the Kettle 22 Point Police when they were working and together we'd 23 patrol both Ipperwash and Kettle Point. We did that all 24 the time. We broke up into -- when we're having break- 25 and-enter problems, we'd set up little projects with each


1 other and double up with them. 2 And they'd -- they'd supply two (2) or 3 three (3) people and we'd supplied two (2) or three (3) 4 people and we'd go out and do foot patrols to try and put 5 an end to some of these break-and-enter problems. 6 We worked well together. We had a lot of 7 fun together. They were a good bunch of guys to work 8 with. 9 Q: You would have developed 10 relationships not only with the constabulary, that is, 11 the police officers of the Kettle Point Police Service, 12 but perhaps others in the community? 13 A: Yes. I got to know a lot of people 14 on Kettle Point and from -- a good bunch of people. A 15 lot of places I was welcomed into most homes down there, 16 I think at one point. 17 I never had any difficulties working down 18 there with the people and I always found them cordial. I 19 mean, there's a lot of good people down there. 20 Q: All right. We know that among some 21 of the folks down there is Ron or Spike George who's an 22 OPP officer. 23 A: Yes. And I've got to know Spike's 24 family really well. I've talked to his father, Bob 25 George, a lot. Bob had a store down there and I'd stop


1 in and see Bob and we'd sit in the back and we'd talk and 2 have coffee. 3 Q: Bob went by another name as well, if 4 I just may interrupt you briefly? 5 A: Knobby. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Knobby was a great guy. He was 8 killed in a car accident. Knobby and I were friends. We 9 did a lot of talking. He told me about -- actually I 10 think I found first out about the Army Camp through Bob. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: We talked about it and how it was 13 taken in the War Measures Act from the Stoney Point 14 people and how his family was from Stoney Point. I think 15 he told me at one (1) time where their property was which 16 was up along 21 Highway. 17 Q: Did you ever get some sense from -- 18 from Robert or -- or Knobby George as to how he felt 19 about that land being taken? 20 A: Well, he expected it to come back and 21 you know quite frankly I'll say right here and now that 22 it should have come back. Bob wasn't militant about it, 23 though, but he -- yeah, he wanted it back for his family. 24 Q: And -- and aside from Mr. George who 25 you've just referred to were there others in the


1 community that you might have developed that sort of 2 relationship with and heard that type of information? 3 A: I talked to Earl Bressette about it 4 too. Earl also had a boy on Kettle Point his name was 5 Vern Bressette. I talked to him too. 6 But mostly it was Bob because Bob and I 7 spent quite a bit of time together. He welcomed me into 8 his house, brought me over there for Christmas dinners 9 and I would just walk into his house without even 10 knocking a lot of times. I was always welcome. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: He had a big family. 13 Q: You mention that they had some 14 expectations that the land would be returned. Do you 15 know if they or others from the community were involved 16 in any type of activities to pursue the return of that 17 land? 18 A: Yeah, there was -- but I don't 19 remember exactly what it was. I know that there was 20 always a movement afoot to try and get the land back 21 whether it was through legal or negotiation with the 22 Federal Government but I know there was always research 23 being done on it. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: But I can't tell you who -- who was


1 doing it all. 2 Q: As an OPP officer, did you have any 3 role in observing or supervising or otherwise policing 4 demonstrations or other kinds of events that might have 5 been in relation to seeking the return of the land? 6 A: They were handing out pamphlets on 21 7 Highway and I was -- we just went down to make sure 8 nobody got hurt or run over and make sure it was all 9 being done properly. We didn't interfere with it. I 10 know they were handing out pamphlets to motorists on 21 11 so... 12 Q: I take it from that there were no 13 public safety concerns, merely traffic issues is that... 14 A: That -- that's exactly right. 15 Q: You mentioned the relationships that 16 you had established with the Kettle and Stony Point 17 Police Services. At some point did that change? 18 A: Yes, after -- when Miles Bressette 19 became chief. 20 Q: If I may just interrupt you briefly 21 when you say "chief," you mean Chief of the Police 22 Service. 23 A: Chief of the Police Service. 24 Q: Right. Yes, go ahead. 25 A: Miles was okay at first. There


1 wasn't any problems at first then he wanted to totally 2 break away from the OPP and at one (1) point we had to 3 ask permission to come on the reserve through him, and he 4 objected to his people coming off and having coffee, even 5 coffee with us because we were the OPP. 6 Q: Do you know what the motivations 7 behind that change was? 8 A: I think he just wanted complete 9 control over his own police service, completely separate 10 from the OPP. 11 Q: And can you tell us the time that 12 this change began to occur? 13 A: I can't tell you exactly when it 14 changed. 15 Q: All right. And did it seem to you, 16 Officer Speck, that that was a personal matter with -- 17 with Miles Bressette, the Chief of Police -- 18 A: At the time it did to me, that's what 19 it seemed to me that Miles wanted his own little kingdom, 20 I'll say. 21 And it's not really a kingdom, it's a -- 22 you know, he wanted his own separate and distinct police 23 force. 24 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 25 not those aspirations for a separate and distinct police


1 force were also apparent in other First Nations 2 communities, such as Walpole Island, that you were 3 familiar with? 4 A: There's all -- there's been talk all 5 over about that. 6 Q: And when you say "talk all over about 7 that," do you mean -- 8 A: I mean there -- 9 Q: -- around the same time? 10 A: -- there's still movement today for 11 Walpole Island to join some type of organization and 12 become a separate and distinct police service of their 13 own. 14 Q: All right, thank you, sir. You none 15 -- you nonetheless continued to have a personal or a 16 professional relationship with Miles Bressette, did you 17 not? 18 A: The -- yeah, and the problems wasn't 19 personal between Miles and I. I got along with Miles. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Miles was Miles and I accepted it. 22 Q: And indeed he, on occasion, even 23 sought your assistance, am I right in that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what can you tell us about that?


1 A: Well, he called his -- one of his 2 relatives got into some problems with a break-and-enter 3 and Miles called me about it and as a result of the 4 information from Miles, we recovered the property and 5 charged this relative. 6 As a result of that, as Miles turned over 7 some more property to me, either the day after or two (2) 8 days after, and actually the relative himself took me to 9 where there was some other stolen property. 10 But that was, you know, that was through 11 Miles; that's how that took place. 12 Q: All right. And we can take it from 13 that, that he still had some relationship with you, 14 obviously, professionally? He had some degree of trust, 15 if I can put it that way? 16 A: Yes, Miles -- Miles and I, we didn't 17 really not get along. 18 Q: Commissioner, I'm going to refer the 19 witness to some of his notes and what I have in the 20 document brief in front of you, sir, is a copy of the 21 Officer's notes at your Tab 3, Mr. Commissioner. 22 And perhaps I will just explain that what 23 we have is a series of -- of notes. It's a bundle of one 24 hundred and forty-one (141) pages, bearing Inquiry 25 document 2005479.


1 It is excerpts from the various notebooks, 2 of which the originals are in front of the Witness right 3 now. 4 In addition to that, over the last couple 5 of days, we have had additional notes produced for us as 6 a result of our review of these notes, and other 7 information that will be referred to throughout this. 8 Those have been produced for us and, in 9 turn, we have produced those electronically to the 10 parties. 11 What I would ask simply, at this point, is 12 I will continue to use the brief -- the book of documents 13 in front of you, Mr. Commissioner, that are numbered as I 14 mentioned from 1 to page 141. 15 But I would reserve -- ask the Registrar 16 if he would reserve a -- the next exhibit number and 17 which I will then refer to and will supply him with, at 18 this moment, a copy of the entire notes which include the 19 notes that have been produced to us, and that in fact 20 have been properly redacted. 21 So if those could go to the Registrar, 22 actually, and we would have those marked as an exhibit, I 23 would then refer to those in my examination of Officer 24 Speck. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1160, Your Honour.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1160. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1160: Document Number 2005479. 4 Handwritten notebook entries 5 of George Speck, July 17, 6 1993 to September 30, 1995 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: And just on that last note that you 10 had mentioned, that is to say the dealings that you had 11 with Chief Miles Bressette and the relative that you've 12 just discussed for us, sir, if you turn to your notebook 13 at January 6th of 1994, and the notations under that date 14 would seem to correspond with the information that you've 15 just provided for us, if you could confirm that. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you know 20 what page, in the material we have, the January 6th entry 21 is? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:


1 Q: And Officer Speck, you'll look to 2 your Book 3, if you would please, and it'll be at your 3 page 17. Mr. Commissioner, it should be at -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page in 5 our book? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: In our book -- it will 7 not be in that book of documents in front of you but it 8 comes as a separate -- 9 COMMISSIONRE SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: -- as a separate 11 document and perhaps you can use... 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: You have an incident recorded in your 18 book that would correspond, sir, to the -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- information you've just provided 21 us. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And might you just refer to your 24 notebook and tell us what you have entered there? 25 A: "At 09:00 hours called back re.


1 follow-up on occurrence 012093 2471 2 break enter and theft, Canadian Tire 3 Store in Forest. On 10 December '93 4 investigated by PC Parks. 5 Attended Kettle Point Police office and 6 contacted First Nations Constable Myles 7 Bressette." 8 I don't want -- 9 Q: And just before you name the -- the 10 individual I'd ask you -- 11 A: He might have been a -- 12 Q: A young -- 13 A: -- offender so -- 14 Q: A young person. 15 A: -- that's why I use the term 16 relative. 17 Q: So I'd ask you simply not to mention 18 that. And -- 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: -- Commissioner in the document that 21 has been filed as an exhibit, that name will have been 22 redacted. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 24 redacted in here though. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: It's not redacted in


1 the -- in the items in front of us, but it will be in 2 that that's made the exhibit. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: Yes continue, if you would please, 6 Officer. 7 A: "Myles advised his relative was taken 8 into the hospital last night, 5th of 9 January '93, from an asthma attack. 10 Myles' wife, Susan Bressette, DOB 17 11 May '57, found the relative in bed 12 crying. He had a Lakefield 22 calibre 13 rifle, serial number L130400 in bed 14 with him. 15 She contacted Myles who in turn called 16 First Nations Constable Murray Duff 17 Bressette who seized the rifle and ran 18 a CPIC check on it. Was one of the 19 rifles stolen from the Canadian Tire 20 Store break-in on 10 Mar -- 10 December 21 '93." 22 Q: All right. And perhaps I can just 23 interrupt you there, Officer, without having to go any 24 further. But suffice it to say that that is -- 25 corresponds to the information you've just provided us?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. This relationship, and 3 you can put your book down, this relationship then that 4 you had with the Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point 5 Police Service, that continues? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what about presently? 8 A: Yes. Presently the sergeant there in 9 charge now likes to know when the OPP are down there, but 10 today they still call me for advice. 11 I've only ever -- they're a separate 12 police force. They're with the Anishnaabeg police 13 service now. They're a standalone police service. I've 14 only ever gone down there since they became Anishnaabeg. 15 One time to assist them with a death 16 investigation, that was just for guidance. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Other than that it's always been 19 phone consultation. 20 Q: Let me take you then, sir, if I may, 21 to the occupation of Camp Ipperwash. You know that that 22 occurred in late May of 1993? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 25 How did -- what -- what knowledge did you have? First of


1 all, did you have any knowledge in advance of that 2 occupation of the -- of the Army Base or the range? 3 A: Well, I spoke -- I was talking to one 4 (1) of the Military people who told me they were -- the 5 First Nations people were coming on there to do a 6 ceremony on the land and then they were leaving. I told 7 them if they come on the land, they're not leaving. 8 Q: And how did you know that? 9 A: Well, I think that was just my 10 opinion because they wanted it back. 11 Q: You were aware that -- that the... 12 A: I was aware that they wanted the land 13 back. 14 Q: You were familiar with the -- the 15 Army Base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were familiar with it by -- 18 by what means? 19 A: Wel,l we used to do our firearms 20 training out there. I'd been to a couple of functions in 21 the Sergeant's Mess there over the years, when I first 22 came here. 23 Other than that, I really didn't have 24 anything to do with inside there. I -- I think I was in 25 there once when they wanted some help with an


1 investigation. I gave them some advice on -- on a sexual 2 assault that the -- that the Military Police had. 3 Normally they did the incidents in there 4 themselves. I remember being in there because they 5 wanted to talk about what to do about a sexual assault 6 that they were investigating. 7 Q: And just with respect to that 8 investigation, can you recall when that might have been? 9 Was that prior to or subsequent to the occupation -- 10 A: Oh -- 11 Q: -- in '93? 12 A: -- way before. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Before. 15 Q: And can I take it from that that you 16 had some working relationship with members of the 17 Military or perhaps the Military Police? 18 A: Not really, I didn't -- I never 19 really had a working relationship with them. 20 Q: You got to know the officers in 21 charge of the Military Base though? 22 A: I can't say I -- I had a real 23 knowledge of them, I met some during the occupation, but 24 other than that, I can't tell you who was in charge 25 before.


1 Q: Okay. In terms of the -- the 2 Military Special Investigation Unit or their 3 investigation component, were you familiar with any of 4 them? 5 A: When? 6 Q: Well, let's start with prior to the 7 occupation? 8 A: No. 9 Q: What about subsequent to the 10 occupation? 11 A: I -- I met a couple, I got some 12 information from a couple of them: Carl Walsh, Lloyd 13 Stone, and I don't remember who else. 14 Q: Once the occupation occurred, sir, 15 did you have a role with respect to the -- the Army Base? 16 A: I was assigned to investigate 17 criminal occurrences that may occur in there. 18 Q: And you were assigned by whom and for 19 what reason? 20 A: I was assigned by Mark Wright. They 21 probably expect -- I don't know why because -- well, 22 actually it's probably when the first occurrence 23 happened. And I'd have to go through my books to see when 24 that first occurrence did happen, but I was assigned to 25 investigate all the criminal occurrences in there.


1 Q: Okay. Do you have any -- any idea as 2 to why you were assigned, as opposed to another officer? 3 A: I only assume because I lived the 4 closest. 5 Q: Thank you. We've also heard 6 something, sir, about concerns that had been raised by 7 other people that were living in the area with respect to 8 the policing of the Army Base. 9 Were you aware of any such concerns that 10 were raised? 11 A: This is after the occupation? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Well, there were -- I -- I think 14 there were some concerns in the community about not 15 enough policing in there. 16 Q: Okay. If I can ask you to turn to 17 Tab 5 of the book of documents in front of you, there is 18 a letter dated July 19th, 1993, it's addressed to Ms. 19 Marion Boyd, Attorney General of Ontario. 20 It is a four (4) page letter and it 21 appears to be signed by one (1) MaryLou LaPratte. 22 First of all, do you know Ms. LaPratte? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I'm just going to ask you a 25 couple of questions about the contents of that. Before I


1 do, I'd perhaps ask that this be made the next exhibit, 2 please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1161, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1161: Document number 3000881. 6 Letter to Marion Boyd, 7 Attorney General of Ontario 8 from MaryLou LaPratte, July 9 19, 1993. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: First of all, at the bottom of page 1 13 you'll see -- you'll see in the second -- second last 14 sentence, it reads: 15 "The OPP, when called with complaints, 16 responded but nothing -- responded 17 [pardon me] but did nothing to keep the 18 peace." 19 Sorry, let me read this again. 20 "The OPP, when called with complaints, 21 responded but did nothing but keep the 22 peace." 23 There we go. And let me continue. 24 "Keep the peace here means we have no 25 rights because you have tied their


1 hands in the performance of their 2 duties where Natives are concerned." 3 And that's what you were referring to, 4 with respect to concerns about policing of Natives in the 5 area? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And as I understand it, sir, that 12 this letter deals primarily with concerns with respect to 13 West Ipperwash beach; do you agree with that? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: At the bottom of page 2 of the 19 document you'll see that there's a -- an incident that is 20 described where a number of Natives, announcing 21 themselves as warriors, had surrounded a particular house 22 located at West Ipperwash beach. 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And are you familiar with that


1 incident? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did you ever become aware of that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Can I just read this first? 10 Q: Yes, by all means. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I don't know what started this, but I 15 -- I was actually out there and I -- and -- what she 16 doesn't say here is that Ben Veel and his company were 17 all drinking, because I chased Ben Veel off the beach 18 myself with a beer in his hand. 19 He insisted he could be out there because 20 his property went out that far, and I told him if he 21 stayed out there I was going to charge him with having 22 the liquor out there. 23 Nobody there called themselves a warrior. 24 I think we just broke it up. Nobody got escorted out of 25 there. And I don't recall any complaints from Ben Veale


1 about the lack of any enforcement by us. 2 This, in my opinion, is just MaryLou 3 LaPratte trying to stir up problems. 4 Q: And if you'll see at the bottom of 5 page 2, the very last sentence and it continues on to 6 page 3, sir, it says: 7 "Chief Bressette was there among his 8 warriors." 9 Do you have any comment just on that 10 phrase? 11 A: I don't recall seeing Tom Bressette 12 there. 13 Q: Okay. And what about the comment, 14 "among his warriors," what -- what do you make of that -- 15 A: Warriors is -- there was -- there was 16 never any talk of warriors around Kettle Point, never. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: She's picked this word up somewhere 19 and just included it, that's my opinion anyway. 20 Q: All right. Thank you, sir. Perhaps 21 just on another note, but somewhat related, yesterday we 22 heard a -- a phrase in this Inquiry, "Road Warriors," 23 does that -- what -- what does that mean? 24 A: In the police circles? 25 Q: I --


1 A: A road warrior is just a frontline 2 uniformed cop. 3 Q: All right. Perhaps I can take you to 4 the bottom then of the document that I have referred you 5 to. At the bottom of page 3 you'll see in the, what I 6 think is the last paragraph, it begins with, and I'll 7 quote: 8 "Several residents had a meeting with 9 the police and local bylaw officers to 10 find out why we have to endure this 11 situation. An OPP officer from Forest 12 Detachment, George Speck, jumped up, 13 banged his fist on the table, and 14 yelled at us [quote], 'Do you people 15 want to get burned out? Do you want 16 your homes burned down by the Natives' 17 [end quote]." 18 Do you have any comment on -- on that, 19 sir? 20 A: That's totally fictitious. 21 Q: Were you at any such meeting? 22 A: I was at -- the only meeting I would 23 have been at was perhaps as a community-based police 24 meeting that -- we wouldn't have brought bylaw officers 25 in for it though.


1 Q: And if you could just look at the -- 2 at the end of -- pardon me at the next page, at the top 3 of page 4 in the second sentence and I'll quote: 4 "On Sunday, July 18th the Natives set 5 up a toll on Township Road. They 6 charged five dollars ($5) to drive down 7 the road and a dollar ($1) to go on [I 8 believe that's] to the beach. This of 9 course is related to the land claim of 10 the Military Camp at Ipperwash. This 11 also included the CKC News release of 12 July 18th. The police charged three 13 (3) Natives with mischief." 14 And then it goes on. Do you recall that, 15 sir? 16 A: The -- the incident of the tolls? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And what can you tell us 20 about that? 21 A: That was on Matheson Drive off of 22 Army Camp Road. They did set up a toll and were charging 23 -- wanting to charge people five dollars ($5) to go down 24 Matheson Drive to use the beach. We did make some 25 arrests as a result of that and they took their -- their


1 toll booth down. 2 Q: If I can refer you to your notebook, 3 sir, at book 1. Commissioner, you'll find it at your Tab 4 3 on -- at what's marked as page 1 in Exhibit P-1160. 5 Under the notation, Saturday, 17 July '93 6 -- it's at your page 11, Officer Speck. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: It carries on and I wonder if you 9 might just take a look at that. And does that correspond 10 to the information you're just providing us now? 11 A: It would if I grab the right 12 notebook. 13 Q: Okay. I believe it's at your 14 notebook 1? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Yes. 18 "At 12:20 I was dispatched to County 19 Road 3 which is Army Camp Road and 20 Matheson Drive in Bosanquet Township. 21 A report of Natives setting up a toll 22 in the area. Several vehicles went in 23 and paid five dollars ($5) fee to use 24 Matheson Drive to get to the beach 25 area."


1 Yes. Did you want me to read it all? 2 Q: Well, not necessarily read it but if 3 you could simply indicate for us what occurred as a 4 result of that. 5 A: We made at least three (3) arrests on 6 it and charged them with mischief. And I think it was 7 resolved when they agreed not to do it anymore, that the 8 charges were withdrawn. 9 Q: And one (1) of the individuals that 10 you were involved with is noted at the bottom of your 11 page 13 at 16:00 hours? 12 A: Yes, it was Clifford George. 13 Q: All right. And you'll note on page 14 14 that -- in the middle of your page -- that he was 15 subsequently put under arrest for mischief and taken back 16 to your car? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. If I can ask you nextly 19 to turn in the book of documents in front of you, 20 Officer, to Tab Number 4, there is an Occurrence Report? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that be made


1 the next exhibit? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1162, Your Honour. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: And that occurrence 4 report there is Inquiry Document 2002610. It -- it 5 already is an exhibit? I'm sorry. I -- I didn't -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is an 7 exhibit? 8 MR. DONALD WORME: I've been corrected by 9 My Friend so -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What exhibit 11 number is it? Do you know the number? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry, I don't have an 16 exhibit number on that but it is -- we'll look for that 17 and I'll -- I'll make a note of that for the record. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: In any event, that occurrence report 22 notes that the arrested parties, including Clifford 23 George, were remanded for bail hearing until July 19th? 24 A: Yeah. We tried to put some 25 conditions on him that they remain within a couple of


1 miles from Matheson Drive but -- and they wouldn't agree 2 with that because that would have included the Army Camp. 3 And we -- if I remember right, we -- we 4 finally agreed that, no, we shouldn't be trying to take 5 them that far away. I think we -- as long as they stayed 6 away -- they promised not to do it again so we withdrew 7 the charges. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: And they kept their promise. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: It's Exhibit P-1143, 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1142? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: 1143. Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: As a result of this occurrence, I 18 understand, sir, that you then would have did some 19 follow-up work in order to -- to prove the -- the charge? 20 A: I obtained a deed for the property 21 for Matheson Drive, I think it was from Peter Hegler from 22 the Town of Bosanquet. 23 Q: If I can ask you then to turn to Tab 24 Number 6 in the Book of Documents in front of you. It is 25 a letter -- copy of a letter under the heading of,


1 "Township of Bosanquet," addressed to yourself enclosing 2 pertinent informa -- and I quote, "Pertinent information 3 as to the ownership of Matheson Drive located between the 4 military camp and Ipperwash Provincial Park," under the 5 hand of Peter Hegler. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And that would be the 8 information that you would have requested? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I'll ask that that be made the 11 next exhibit please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1162, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1162: Document number 2000619. 15 Letter to George Speck from 16 Peter Hegler Re: Ownership of 17 Matheson Drive with 18 attachments, December 06, 19 1993. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: You've had an opportunity to review 23 those documents, sir, and those are the documents you 24 would have received? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: If I could ask you just to turn to 2 the last page of that, if you would please. It would 3 appear to be a map of some description. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you're familiar with that? 9 A: It doesn't look like a very good map, 10 but... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: All right. Okay, Army Camp Road 15 should be out to the left of that, I think. 16 Q: Okay. And if I can just try to 17 explain, as you're referring to the map you are holding 18 it -- well... 19 A: The arrow is pointing north, the lake 20 is north, the road off to the right should be Matheson 21 Drive and it -- I don't think it goes around in a square 22 like that, it bends around. 23 Q: All right. And -- 24 A: And it goes down to the beach. 25 Q: And approximately where was this toll


1 booth, if you can describe that for us? 2 A: It was just in from Army Camp Road. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: You could -- you could see them from 5 Army Camp Road because we were standing there watching 6 them. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It wasn't very far down off Army Camp 9 Road; the distance, I can't tell you now. 10 Q: Army Camp Road and Matheson Drive? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if I can describe that, would 13 that be located at approximately the bottom right-hand 14 corner of the document, left hand -- 15 A: Bottom left, yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: So if we were to follow the arrow, 20 the arrow that points north, if we were to follow that to 21 the bottom, approximately where Matheson Drive and the 22 bottom right portion of the -- of the document, would 23 that be approximately where that toll booth was located? 24 A: This is Matheson Drive at the bottom, 25 right?


1 Q: You're referring to the -- what 2 appears to be the roadway that's marked. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: Army Camp Road would be to the left 6 of where that starts. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: They were just in a short distance 9 from that Army Camp Road. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. You'd 11 mentioned earlier, sir, that you were assigned to 12 investigate any occurrences at the army base, at Camp 13 Ipperwash. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I want to ask you, then, nextly, 16 about a number of incidents that you would have had 17 occasion to investigate as a result of that assignment, 18 all right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: In August of 1993, we were told of an 21 -- of an altercation between Kevin Simon and members of 22 the military at the base. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What can you tell us about that? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: The military had gone and removed 4 Kevin from a -- a building, a tin building. He had taken 5 up residence there and they went and removed him and 6 removed his property from there. 7 Q: Okay. I note that you're referring 8 to your -- your book of -- to your notes. Those will 9 appear, Mr. Commissioner, at what is noted at page 8 of 10 1159, under the date August 16th of 1993. 11 And Officer Speck, that is at the actual 12 page 44 of your notebook? 13 A: It's 44 in my notes. 14 Q: Yes. Just continue if you would, 15 then. 16 A: "Kevin had -- they removed Kevin from 17 a range shed on the rifle range and 18 Kevin left in a red Nissan pick-up. 19 Military officer removed and seized 20 and has found property; a fridge, 21 stove, couch and other property from 22 the building and loaded it onto a 23 military truck. 24 Kevin returned with another truck, a 25 load of -- it says Indians here. This


1 other truck was similar to a Blazer or 2 a 4 x 4 and had a spotlight on top of 3 it. 4 To avoid a direct confrontation Captain 5 Gordon Prentice told his men to leave 6 the area. The 4 x 4 followed Sergeant 7 Major John Taylor right on his bumper. 8 He, the Sergeant Major, went out onto 9 21 Highway and the 4 x 4 then chased 10 after the truck with the fridge, et 11 cetera, and the Jeep that was following 12 it. 13 Prior to leaving, when Kevin came back, 14 Kevin pulled in behind the military 15 Jeep and the 4 x 4 stopped in front of 16 the Jeep. 17 A few seconds later, intentionally 18 rammed the Jeep, forcing it back into 19 the Nissan, causing some minor damage." 20 Doesn't say 'some,' it says, "causing 21 minor damage," to the Nissan. 22 "No damage to the Jeep. 23 That's when -- that is when Captain 24 Prentice told his men to -- to leave. 25 The 4 x 4 followed the Jeep and truck


1 to the main area of the camp and when 2 the truck turned off the main road, the 3 chase ended and the 4 x 4 did several 4 doughnuts on the grass, tearing up the 5 lawn. 6 During this short chase the 4 x 4 was 7 right on the bumper of the Jeep. A 8 verbal confrontation occurred between 9 the Sergeant Major and an unknown male 10 Indian, approximately eighteen (18) 11 years, who called the Sergeant Major 12 several obscene names. 13 No one can identify the driver of 14 the 4 x 4 because of the darkness of 15 the hour and the spotlights blocking 16 their vision. 17 Sergeant Major didn't want any 18 further action at this time because of 19 possible repercussion and they were 20 having a meeting in Toronto today to 21 decide on the Indian/military 22 problems." 23 Q: Okay. Rather than going any further, 24 can you tell us what, if anything, you did as a result of 25 receiving that information from the Sergeant Major?


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Nothing. He was going to have his -- 4 all his people provide statements. I didn't lay any 5 charges, didn't chase after anybody. They didn't really 6 want it. 7 Q: Okay. Subsequent to this, we've 8 heard information in this Inquiry that the shed that 9 Kevin Simon was evicted from, I think, as you noted, had 10 subsequently burned down. 11 A: Yes, it did. 12 Q: All right. Did you have cause to 13 investigate that? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And what, if anything, became of that 16 investigation? 17 A: Nothing. Nobody could identify 18 anybody. 19 Q: All right. Was there any value 20 attached to the building? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I don't have it in this book, I don't 25 see.


1 Q: Can you recall whether or not the 2 property that was taken by the military was ever returned 3 to Mr. Simon? 4 A: I spoke to the military about that 5 and told them they should be returning it as it's no 6 value to them. 7 Captain Prentice didn't want to return it 8 right away. I think he was just making a point. But 9 eventually they agreed that it would be returned to the 10 Natives. 11 Q: Do you know whether or not that 12 property was ever returned? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: All I had was them telling me that 16 they would return it. 17 Q: Perhaps I can refer you, then, to 18 page 48 of your notes, sir. Commissioner, that will 19 appear at -- it's marked at the top of the page as page 20 12, of -- of 1160. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: These are notations, Officer Speck, 25 of the investigation of the fire.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And right in the middle 3 of the page, if I can just read that for you: 4 "There's no doubt the fire was started 5 by Stoney Point Natives in retaliation 6 for the -- Kevin being removed from it 7 by the military." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That is your -- that is your 10 notation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you had indicated earlier that 17 there was no evidence with respect to that, but I take it 18 that was nonetheless your conclusion? 19 A: It was my opinion and my... 20 Q: Okay. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: To be fair, he said 22 there's no evidence of who did it, who -- what individual 23 did it. 24 And he's now talking about how it came 25 about, what was the motive and reason for doing it.


1 If My Friend's going to be fair to the 2 witness, he has to go back in the notes and read what the 3 witness has -- has recorded that led to that conclusion. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: I thank My Friend for 5 that, and he's absolutely right. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: If you want to just continue, 9 Officer. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Perhaps the witness can 14 be taken back -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- just so he can 17 indicate how he came to the conclusion, because it starts 18 before the notation. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want the 20 witness to read his own notes, perhaps. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: If it'll be helpful, 22 by all means. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: If you want to turn to page 47 of


1 your notebook, sir. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: You'll see at the middle of the page, 4 at 12:00 hours: 5 "The arson investigation - CFB 6 Ipperwash building --" 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "-- that burned was the same one 9 that, [quote] 'Kevin' [end quote] was 10 thrown out of earlier by the MPs -- 11 A: MPs, yes. 12 Q: Right. Just continue then. 13 A: "-- building completely destroyed by 14 fire was approximately twelve (12) foot 15 by sixteen (16) foot and used as a 16 troop shelter by the Military when they 17 were on the fire -- the rifle range and 18 the weather turned bad. Only had 19 wooden benches in it. It was a wooden 20 framed building covered in tin. 21 Thedford Fire Department attended. 22 Building gone before they arrived. 23 There wasn't any electricity hooked up 24 in the building and the stove was not 25 hooked up. There wasn't anything in


1 the building to accidentally start a 2 fire. A fridge, picnic table, and 3 insulation had been taken out of the 4 building before the fire. That was 5 laying on the ground outside. 6 There is no doubt the fire was started 7 by Stoney Point in -- in retaliation 8 for this -- Kevin being removed from it 9 by the Military. 10 There was a group of natives in the 11 area with a tent affair established who 12 started playing chants on a tape 13 recorder. The sound was turned up for 14 our benefit. 15 I spoke to Acting Chief Carl George who 16 said he told them not to do it but they 17 wouldn't listen to him. He wouldn't 18 say who they were, he said they were 19 having trouble keeping the younger ones 20 in line. No evidence available at the 21 scene." 22 Q: All right. Thank you for that, 23 Officer. If I can ask you just to continue on -- on that 24 page at 19:00 hours it would appear that you get a call 25 back?


1 A: Yes. 2 "19:00 hours call back by Sergeant 3 Beacock re: five (5) natives at the MP 4 shack demanding their property back 5 that the Military had seized at 06:00 6 hours and the Military was holding it 7 for evidence in the arson. He wanted 8 me to go out to see if I could cool 9 things. I went out and talked to 10 Sergeant McGuire and told him the items 11 were of no value for evidence and he 12 agreed but Captain Prentice would not 13 give it back yet. 14 I spoke to Acting Chief Carl George and 15 he agreed to talk to the youths and 16 tell them to keep it quiet tonight. 17 There was a meeting at their church 18 going on. The church was full. 19 I told Carl that eventually the 20 furniture will be going back to them as 21 it is of no use to the Military. He 22 was satisfied but expressed concerns 23 what the Military was going to do when 24 the Cadets left. Said they saw -- said 25 they have seen some Military people on


1 the Camp that had been at Oka. 2 I then talked to Sergeant McGuire and 3 told him what we talked about and then 4 I returned to Forest." 5 Q: Just a couple of questions on that, the 6 reference to Oka, I take it that that was the 1991 7 standoff that occurred in -- in Oka, Quebec? 8 A: I'd take it that too when -- when I 9 talked to him. 10 Q: All right. And what if anything did 11 you make of that? Did anything become of this 12 information that was provided to you? 13 A: No. I didn't make anything of it. 14 Q: Let me -- let me refer you nextly 15 then to your book 2 at page 27 and that will appear at 16 page 15, Mr. Commissioner, of 1160. 17 You've an entry there, I believe it's 18 October 19th, of 1993? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: On the 19th of October? 23 Q: Well, perhaps I should ask you is 24 that the 19th of October firstly? Again I'm referring to 25 the -- to the entry at the bottom of what is your page


1 27. 2 A: No, that's the 20th of October, sir. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. And am I 4 right in -- in saying that that was an arson/mischief 5 incident that you were investigating at CFB Ipperwash? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. What can you tell us about 8 that? 9 A: That was a mischief to an outhouse. 10 Do you want me to just read it? 11 Q: Please. 12 A: "08:00 arson/mischief CFB Ipperwash 13 occurred approximately 19:10 hours the 14 19th of October '93. 15 Reported to Forest Detachment at 20:44 16 hours by Master Corporal Sullivan of 17 the Military Police at CFB Ipperwash. 18 Arson to an outhouse in the marriage 19 patch area of -- of the north end of 20 the Camp. Approximately one hundred 21 (100) yards in from Matheson Drive. 22 Also burnt down at Bio Lake was a three 23 (3) cedar outhouse and an 8' x 10' 24 storage shed. 25 Four (4) large military signs at the


1 end of Matheson Drive at the beach were 2 also cut with a chainsaw. An outhouse 3 at the grenade range was pulled off its 4 foundation and burnt. All the windows 5 in the buildings at the grenade range 6 were broken by throwing rocks and 7 cinder blocks through the window. 8 Metal frames also damaged. 9 The door locks [excuse me] the door 10 knobs to the doors were also broken by 11 pounding down on them with rocks and 12 cinder blocks. 13 The shatter proof glass in the cement 14 corner walls, the cement covered walls 15 were also broken. 16 One building entered and a gas heater 17 was damaged. I seized the heater cover 18 and a beige coloured heater cover. 19 Then make hunter seized for printing. 20 The gas pipe at the east end of the 21 building was also bent. 22 Total approximate damage was 23 approximately twenty thousand dollars 24 ($20,000). The range patrol officer 25 saw the red Nissan pickup leaving from


1 the fenced in area of the grenade range 2 with three (3) male Indians in it. 3 Unknown who. No license number but the 4 vehicle is that of Marcia Simon 5 probably driven by Keven Simon." 6 That's probably an assumption, that part. 7 Q: All right. As a result of this 8 investigation, were there any charges laid? 9 A: No. 10 Q: If I could refer you next, sir, to 11 your book number 6, to your entry at November the 10th of 12 '94. I believe it's your page 38. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: If we could just have 14 a moment, Commissioner. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Sorry, I -- I think I might have said 20 book 8, it's your book 6. Do you have book 6? 21 A: I have book 6. 22 Q: Yes, thank you. 23 A: Page? 24 Q: I believe it's your page 38. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I think you might have the wrong page 4 number, sir. 5 Q: I think you're right. I think I've 6 just been informed it's your page 81. Let me see if I 7 can... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, I don't have a copy of this note 13 and I don't think I have a copy of that in -- in the 14 materials in front of you, Commissioner. 15 But nonetheless it is at your page 81, 16 Officer. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I wonder if you just might go ahead 19 and read that entry at 08:45 hours. 20 A: "08:45, assist Grand Bend. Shots 21 fired on Outer Drive. Investigating -- 22 investigated by PC Mark Smith. Parties 23 digging a trench by army camp and 24 Natives in a yellow K car, stopped and 25 fired shots over their heads to stop


1 them from digging. 2 Car last seen south SB [which is 3 southbound] on 21 Highway. 4 Cannot identify anyone. I checked the 5 Simon residence of -- because they had 6 a similar car and there wasn't a car 7 there. 8 Q: Let me just ask you this. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, first of all, do you know why 13 the parties were, as is indicated there, the parties were 14 digging a ditch? 15 A: Because of concerns by the township 16 of stolen vehicles being taken into the army camp off of 17 Outer Drive so they're digging a trench to try and 18 prevent this. 19 Q: All right. And as a result of this 20 report and the investigation that you did, were there any 21 charges? 22 A: I didn't -- it wasn't my 23 investigation. It was investigated by Bart Smith of Grand 24 Bend Detachment and was -- which -- this was in their 25 area at the time.


1 Q: Do you know whether there were any 2 charges -- 3 A: I don't believe there were. 4 Q: I see, all right. On the 15th of 5 December, 1993 -- and Commissioner, you'll find this at 6 page 24 of the -- of the Exhibit 1160. 7 A: Where are we at now, sir? 8 Q: December 15th of '93. 9 A: '93. 10 Q: And you'll find it at your page 97, 11 sir. 12 You have an entry at 15:00 hours. It 13 looks like an investigation of mischief at CFB Ipperwash. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: 15:00 hours. CFB Ipperwash. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: That's the one you're talking about? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yes. "And mischief, CFB Ipperwash. 22 Reported by Sergeant Donald Beaver, 23 military police. CFB Ipperwash. While 24 driving -- while checking their 25 property, they found that the doors of


1 the grenade range all had been -- all 2 had approximately six (6) bullet holes 3 in them. 4 They also shot the tower there. 5 Several spent slugs were removed from 6 the door by Master Corporal B.D. 7 Miller. 8 They appeared to be .22 calibre 9 bullets, but were too damaged to be of 10 any evident -- evidentiary value. 11 Officer who found the damage was 12 Captain Gordon Prentice and Master 13 Warrant Officer Taylor. 14 Damage found at 10:00 hours, 14 15 December and reported at 16:05 hours, 16 14 December '93. 17 Unknown when damage occurred. Report 18 for our information. Unknown who 19 caused the damage." 20 Q: And I take it, as a result of -- of 21 that information, there were no charges that were laid? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. If I can turn you nextly 24 to the -- to your next page, the entries at Thursday, 16 25 December, '93.


1 You're investigating at 11:00 hours the 2 theft of an outhouse -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- is that right? And what can you 5 tell us about that? 6 A: "11:00 hours, thefts of an outhouse, 7 CFB Ipperwash, reported by Captain 8 Gordon Prentice. Prentice advised he 9 saw a GMC pick up, licence OW 8217 10 Ontario, with four (4) Indians in it, 11 driving on a road with a stolen wooden 12 outhouse in the back of it. Value one 13 thousand eighty-five dollars ($1,085). 14 They took it to Dudley's trailer [and I 15 put in brackets] (Anthony O'Brien 16 George), and it's still there in the 17 back of the truck. 18 Truck is Abraham George's. Only person 19 he recognized was Dud and he was a 20 passenger in the truck. 21 The outhouse went missing sometime ago 22 and they had it hidden somewhere. I 23 now have it -- now have retrieved it. 24 Upon my arrival the outhouse was 25 unloaded and set up beside Dud's


1 trailer. Truck was not there and -- 2 and Dud was not around. 3 I told Prentice they should just go and 4 get it back and I would stand by to 5 keep the peace. Military Police went 6 down and got the outhouse back without 7 incident. There was one (1) male in 8 the trailer who threw -- threw a piece 9 of bread at Prentice and gave him the 10 finger. And that's all that occurred." 11 Q: Do you want to just finish reading 12 that entry? 13 A: Oh. 14 "Prentice was happy with the way things 15 were handled." 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Perhaps you can -- perhaps you can 21 just go back and read the line just before -- two (2) 22 lines just before, "Prentice was happy." 23 A: Oh, I guess I did skip two (2) lines 24 there. 25 "As a charge would have been in doubt,


1 Prentice was happy with the way things 2 were -- Prentice..." 3 Let me go again here. 4 "There was one (1) male in the trailer 5 who threw a piece of bread at Prentice 6 and gave him the finger and that's all 7 that occurred. As the charge would 8 have in doubt Prentice was happy with 9 the way things were handled." 10 Q: Sir, I'm going to -- I'm going to 11 suggest to you that these various incidents that were 12 investigated by you were not the most serious types of 13 incidents that you might have been looking at at the 14 time; would that be fair? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: And how would you characterize this 17 ongoing -- the ongoing relationship as between those 18 people in occupation and the Military up to that point? 19 A: Up to that point? Up to when this 20 all first started there was a -- there was an easy peace 21 between them I think or an uneasy one, I should say. 22 You've got two (2) different entities with 23 two (2) different agendas. Keep them together you're 24 going to have some kind of a friction, I don't care who 25 it is and that's what's starting to happen.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: That's my opinion anyway. 3 Q: And it seems at least from -- from 4 what you've been able to tell us and what you've recorded 5 in the notes about these various incidents that you took 6 perhaps a -- well, maybe you should just describe it. 7 What type of policing activity did you 8 engage in with respect to these various incidents? 9 A: Well, a lot of these incidents you 10 couldn't lay charges anyway because identification was a 11 real problem and there wasn't any evidence against 12 anybody. 13 In my mind the biggest thing to do was 14 investigate these things with a certain amount of 15 tolerance just to be able to keep this uneasy peace 16 between the -- the Military and the occupiers. I mean, 17 nobody was injured yet, it's just property damage. 18 I would think if I had the evidence and 19 especially with the -- the big arson -- I probably would 20 have laid a charge but the evidence wasn't there. 21 Q: All right. Sir, you were also aware 22 that the people in the area including the First Nations 23 people would have had -- would have had guns? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you would have on occasion have


1 heard or have reports of there being heard gunfire? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Any kind of description with respect 4 to that gunfire? 5 A: I've heard semi-automatic fire in 6 there myself over the time. Other people say they heard 7 automatic gunfire in there. Military talk about rifles 8 being pointed at them but they never ever laid a 9 complaint. I think a lot of the times from what I 10 remember right from the Military is identification was a 11 problem. 12 Nobody ever pointed a gun at any OPP that 13 I'm aware of. 14 Q: And I take it from that, you never 15 had a weapon pointed at you by anybody? 16 A: Never. 17 Q: That is anybody in occupation of the 18 Army Base? 19 A: No. 20 Q: We have had a report, sir, that in 21 August of 1993 towards the end of August, that there was 22 a -- a helicopter that had been shot and hit. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you have any involvement either 25 in terms of investigating that or any type of followup on


1 that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you learn anything about that 4 particular incident? 5 A: In what way, sir? 6 Q: Well did you have any information at 7 any point in time with respect to that allegation of a 8 helicopter being shot at the Army Base? 9 A: Well from what I spoke to, everybody 10 thought it was Abe George who fired the shot. I know 11 Knobby was mad at Abe. Knobby and Abe were brothers. I 12 think Knobby went over there and took the gun away from 13 Abe. 14 I know Knobby was mad at Abe being -- for 15 being around in that type of situation. 16 Q: Do you recall how you might have came 17 to this information? 18 A: I don't know whether I would have 19 been reading reports or talking to other people. 20 Q: Okay. At Tab 10 of the Book of 21 Document in front of you, sir, there is a fax that's 22 dated June 1st of -- a fax cover sheet that's dated June 23 1st '93 and there is a three (3) page report that follows 24 that. 25 A: That's a copy of the occurrence


1 report on it that I faxed to Inspector Terry Hall. He 2 must have called and asked for a copy of it to be faxed 3 to him and I would have dug it out and faxed it to him. 4 Q: And you would have -- you would have 5 taken that report and faxed it along? 6 A: Excuse me, yes. 7 Q: There's an entry at the very last 8 page of that, Supplementary Report. 9 Do you see the entry at 27 June '94? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there are initials behind that. 12 Are those your initials, sir? 13 A: That -- that is my entry. 14 Q: And the new entry, I wonder if you 15 could just read that into the record please? 16 A: "No new information has been received 17 to further assist in this 18 investigation." 19 That's dated the 27th of January '94 20 followed by my initials. 21 Q: Perhaps we should have that marked as 22 an exhibit. I know that the document itself has been an 23 exhibit but that last entry was not included. 24 Pardon me, just -- excuse me, one second. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If we could have that marked as -- as 4 an exhibit please. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1163, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1163: Document number 2001188. Fax 8 from D/C Speck to Inspector 9 Terry Hall Re: Shooting CFB 10 Ipperwash, June 01, 1994. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Did you play any further role, sir, 14 in the investigation of that incident? 15 A: No. 16 Q: We've also had some -- some testimony 17 in these proceedings, Officer Speck, that there were 18 concerns about other people other than Kettle and Stony 19 Point First Nations people at the Army Base. 20 Do you know anything about that? 21 A: There were outsiders there that we 22 didn't know who they were or what they were all about. 23 When outsiders come into -- your always concerned about 24 them. We didn't know at one (1) point who all was in 25 there.


1 Q: Perhaps I can ask you to turn to your 2 book 1, there's an entry at August 20th of 1993. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: You'll find some additional notes, 7 Mr. Commissioner, in the -- in the document bearing that 8 date. 9 There's an entry, Officer Speck, at 19:45 10 hours. 11 A: Is that August the 20th, sir? 12 Q: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Your page 52. If you could start at 17 the middle of the page, "General patrol." 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And just continue -- if you would 23 read that to the end of that entry, before you go off 24 duty. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: "19:45 with PC Mike Feeney, 4 Grand Bend general patrol. CFB 5 Ipperwash and Ipperwash beach re. 6 Native unrest and arson occurrence, 93- 7 2016. Code 5-10. [Oh and then at one 8 o'clock] 01:00, continued patrol 9 Ipperwash area re. occurrence 93-2016. 10 Alleged Mohawk warriors in area. All 11 quiet." 12 Q: And as a result of those alleged 13 Mohawk warriors in the area, as you've noted in your 14 notebook, was there anything done as a result of that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did anything become of that? 17 A: No, that -- I don't even see in there 18 where the information came from. It was just extra 19 patrol in case they were out there. 20 Q: And can you tell us who the Mohawk 21 warriors were? Were you familiar with any such group or 22 what information, if any, did -- 23 A: I know -- 24 Q: -- you have? 25 A: -- who the Mohawk warriors are.


1 They're groups of individuals who, because their proud of 2 their heritage, a formal society. 3 But, you know, in doing their day to day 4 business, they don't care whether or not they break the 5 law or not and subsequently these groups have a tendency 6 to draw in some of the criminal element and some of the 7 more radical elements out there. 8 Q: And do you know whether or not any of 9 -- any of those individuals that you've described were 10 part of the group at CFB Ipperwash during that period -- 11 A: When they first went in, no. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: At any point in time? 16 A: Yeah, Ed Isaac was in there at one 17 time, Doxtators, Layton Elijah. 18 Q: Now, just to be clear, the Doxtators 19 could be a fairly large family. 20 A: Yeah. Buck Doxtator. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: Now that's not to say that everybody 23 that's a warrior is a -- a criminal, either. 24 Q: Okay. One of the things that I 25 wanted to ask you about, sir, is that at -- at some point


1 in time, you provided an Affidavit that indicated that 2 you observed the late Dudley George to be holding a gun 3 outside of his trailer on April the 20th of 1995. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you'll find -- you'll find, 6 actually, that Affidavit at tab 53 of the book of 7 documents in front of you. 8 I just wanted to ask you about the 9 circumstances about how you came to give that Affidavit, 10 first of all, and how it is that you were able to 11 pinpoint that date. 12 You'll note that that Affidavit was given 13 in 1998, sir. 14 A: Yes. I think Brian Byatt, if I 15 remember right, he came to my office to ask me about this 16 and to sign an Affidavit. And even at the time I kind of 17 objected to it, but I did it because there's no notes in 18 my notebook about it. 19 And the reasoning there's no notes in my 20 notebook about it because guns in there is an every-day 21 occurrence in there and I didn't make anything of it. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: And I wasn't concerned about it. The 24 reason I remember it is because I was coming back. I was 25 with Detective Constable or -- or with Dan Rowbotham who


1 worked out of here too. We were coming back from an 2 occurrence in Grand Bend and were going by the -- the 3 Army Camp and he didn't know who Dudley was. 4 And were going by Dudley's trailer and 5 there was -- Dudley's in his doorway and there was a 6 couple of -- three (3) natives on the ground there; 7 they're all dressed in camouflage and I pointed Dudley 8 out to Rowbotham and he was carrying -- well, he was 9 holding a rifle in his right hand but he was holding it 10 by the forestock. 11 I went past there and went to turn around 12 to come back to see who the others were but by the time 13 that I got back there they were all loading into a white 14 Pontiac with no plates. 15 So I turned around again and said we'll go 16 down to the end of Army Camp Road to see if they -- they 17 drive down towards the beach and come out onto the 18 roadway. And we went down there and I could hear some 19 shots being fired. We sat there for a few minutes, they 20 didn't come out so we left. 21 Q: All right. Perhaps I can ask you to 22 -- to turn to your notebook for Thursday, April the 20th 23 of 1995? Commissioner, this would be part of the 24 materials that were distributed yesterday electronically; 25 it's your book 7, sir.


1 And I believe you'll find that entry for 2 April the 20th at your page 84, Officer Speck. 3 A: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And if I can ask you to -- simply to 8 indicate, there -- there's an entry that commences at 9 16:37 hours. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: What page, sir? 14 Q: It would be your page 84. It starts 15 on page 83. 16 A: 14:30? Is that the time you're 17 referring to, sir? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And -- and onward. 21 A: Yes? 22 Q: But as I -- as I take it from these 23 notes that you were in attendance at Grand Bend to 24 assist, as you've indicated, Officer Rowbotham with 25 photographing a residence that was the subject of a B&E


1 investigation, I take it? 2 A: It was failing to supply or provide 3 the necessities of life. 4 Q: All right. Pardon me. But you were 5 there to investigate, in any event? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that you left that residence it 8 would -- you've indicated, at 17:08 hours? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And that's how I came to my timeline 12 about what time this was when we went by the Army Camp. 13 Q: I see. And that's how you were able 14 to pinpoint the time for the affidavit that you've -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- identified as yours at Tab 53? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Perhaps I could have that affidavit 19 be marked as the next exhibit please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1164, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1164: Document number 2005349. 23 Affidavit of George Speck, 24 August 04, 1998. 25


1 MR. DONALD WORME: And this might be a 2 good time, Mr. Commissioner, to take the morning break. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 We'll take a break now. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 6 for fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 10:27 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 10:45 a.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Officer 18 Speck, before we took the break we were talking about the 19 period in and around the summer of 1993, just following 20 the occupation of the military base, the range area. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Right. And your relationship with 23 the occupiers at that point, your communication with 24 them, how would you describe that? 25 A: There wasn't a problem at that time.


1 Q: You got along with the folks there, 2 you knew the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the leadership? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The leadership at that point in time, 7 do you recall who that was? 8 A: I believe it was Carl George. 9 Q: Okay. And beyond that, I understand 10 that you were -- you were a coach in baseball and you had 11 a personal as well as a professional relationship with 12 some of the folks that were -- that were involved there? 13 A: Well, I certainly coached some of the 14 kids -- some of the people when they were on Kettle 15 Point, when they were kids, with baseball. 16 I -- my kids hung around with some of 17 them, had them at my house with my kids and I didn't have 18 a problem. 19 Q: Okay. And I take it that they had no 20 problem with the OPP generally? 21 A: No. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Did you ever have any occasion to


1 discuss with any of the occupiers, given your 2 relationship with them or people in occupation, I should 3 say, given your relationship with them about what -- what 4 your role was, as an OPP officer or what the OPP would 5 do, generally? 6 A: I don't believe I had discussions 7 with them about it. 8 Q: You mentioned and you've already 9 indicated that you were, however, charged with 10 investigating various occurrences there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: As a result of your investigations, 13 some of which you've told us about and others we'll come 14 to, did that relationship that you've described, did that 15 change or did that otherwise suffer? 16 A: It did for a while -- I don't think 17 very many of them ended up liking me that were in there, 18 because every time there was something negative, I was 19 dealing with it. 20 And after a period of time, you have a 21 dislike for somebody that's always dealing with you in 22 negative things, nothing positive. 23 And it changed. It changed more when -- I 24 got along with Carl fine, it really changed when Glenn 25 sort of had the -- was the acting spokesman for them.


1 Q: Okay, and we'll come to that in a 2 moment. Before we do, if I can refer you to your book 6 3 at page 20. You'll find that, Commissioner, at what is 4 marked at page -- as page 29 of Exhibit 1160. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And if I'm not mistaken, Officer 9 Speck, that deals with an occurrence that you were 10 investigating in September of 1994 and if you'll see the 11 entry at 15:00 hours, at the top -- 12 A: Which day is that, sir or which page? 13 Q: Sorry, I'm told it's book ... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Book 6. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: And can you tell us what date that 21 entry is? 22 A: The 23rd of September. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Is that the one with Carl George? 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: Yes. "15:00 hours, possible thefts 2 or fraud complaint from Carl Otto 3 George, Indian Lane, Kettle Point 4 Reserve, RR2, Forest." 5 He came in with concerns of money missing 6 from the Stoney Point and thought that someone had 7 absconded with the money and asked me to investigate it. 8 I spent a number of days investigating it 9 and found it just to be an error. The money was 10 deposited into an account that Carl didn't know about, 11 but the money was actually deposited. 12 Q: Okay. But you were able to find out 13 that at the end of the day there was simply an error, I 14 think as you put it -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: A mistake was made? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Sir, on February the 24th of 1995 you 19 were again investigating another incident? 20 A: February 24th '95? 21 Q: Pardon me, '94. It's at your page 22 23. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: You'll find that at your book 3, page 2 93. 3 A: Book 3? 4 Q: Commissioner, this is in the 5 documents that we, circulated, I think, yesterday. 6 A: Which page, sir? 7 Q: You'll find it at -- commencing at 8 your page 93. You were sent to CFB Ipperwash to 9 investigate a complaint of a number of individuals who 10 were attempting to erect a sign by the main gate at the 11 Ipperwash -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- Army Camp. Do you recall that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you see that in your notes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what can you tell us about this 18 and what was the outcome of that investigation and that 19 complaint? 20 A: There were a number of people trying 21 to erect signs around the main gate of the Base. And 22 Vince George was dispatched to it. And I arranged for 23 the Kettle Point police to go over and back Vince up 24 because they were the closest vehicle -- or unit. 25 And military, Carl Walsh, had a problem


1 with the Kettle Point police being there because these 2 were Kettle Point people occupying their military base. 3 And I told Carl Walsh that I'm the one that dispatched 4 them and everything was fine and he was content with that 5 after I told him that. 6 And he commended, actually, Vince for 7 doing a good job, I think. 8 Q: Can I ask you nextly about some 9 information that you would have received in the spring of 10 1994, about a party that was to occur on the Military 11 Base. 12 A: Can you give me a reference, sir, 13 please? 14 Q: Give me one moment if I can. I think 15 it's May 2nd of '94. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: It commences apparently at April 20 22nd. It says Mr. Roland. And there's two (2) entries, 21 one at April 22nd, and a subsequent one at May 2nd of 22 '94. Perhaps if you could just take a look at that and 23 tell us what that relates to. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: If you look at your book 4 at page 2 55. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Right at the bottom of that page. 5 A: Yes. "Contacted by Captain Pierre 6 Lauren CFB Ipperwash. Reports that 7 their SIU, their Special Investigations 8 Unit had received information on May 9 the 6th '94, Natives are having a large 10 party in the camp at their main 11 encampment. 12 And in June they are..." 13 Can't read my writing. Can you give me a 14 sec please? Oh. 15 "They're planning to have their own 16 powwow. Also Carl George is not 17 staying at the camp because he can no 18 longer control those occupying the 19 Camp. I went to the Camp and got 20 copies of the occurrences that took 21 place on the 16th of April." 22 Yes? 23 Q: And if you could then turn to the 24 second entry with respect to that same occurrence, 25 Monday, May 2nd, 1994, you'll find that at your page 63.


1 And again, Commissioner, that's in the materials that 2 were distributed yesterday. 3 A: Yes? 4 Q: What -- what does the entry say with 5 respect to this matter? 6 A: "Operations planning assist Detective 7 Sergeant Wright re: operations re: 8 May 6th weekend party of natives at CFB 9 Ipperwash." 10 Q: And as a result of the initial 11 information and the subsequent operational planning that 12 you were engaged in, what happened with respect to that? 13 A: This didn't take place. 14 Q: Perhaps I can just, lastly, on the 15 same point turn you to Tab 7 of the book of documents in 16 front of you. There's a document that bears Inquiry 17 Document Number 2001339. 18 It's a photocopy of a letter appearing 19 under your hand, sir, to the Superintendent in charge of 20 the Chatham Detachment; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the -- the "re:" line is "re: 23 Native Activity at CFB Ipperwash"? 24 A: Yes, it's just not very clear here. 25 Q: And this corresponds to the


1 information that you've just provided us and that is to 2 say and I'll quote: 3 "Information has been received that the 4 natives occupying CFB Ipperwash are 5 planning a large party at their main 6 encampment on the Base May 6th of 7 1994." 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: "They're also planning their own 10 powwow which is to take place..." 11 A: Sometime. 12 Q: "...sometime in 1994 in which they 13 say they expect two hundred (200) 14 people to attend?" 15 A: Sometime in June 1994. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Pardon me. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's two thousand 18 (2000). 19 MR. DONALD WORME: 2000. I stand 20 corrected. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: Perhaps I should ask you to read 24 that, sir? 25 A: Me?


1 Q: If you would please. 2 A: "They're also planning their own 3 powwow which is to take place sometime 4 in June 1994 in which they say they 5 expect two thousand (2,000) people to 6 attend. At the present time there 7 appears a lack of leadership [I can't 8 ...] with these people and their chief 9 Carl George has admitted that he cannot 10 control the natives at the Camp and he 11 himself has moved off of the Camp for 12 that reason. I've enclosed a copy of 13 the Military Police Occurrence Report 14 of some driving offences that took 15 place on April 16th, 1994. There have 16 been other similar occurrences as those 17 mentioned [and I can't read the next 18 word]. This report has -- that have 19 not been reported to us. Military [it 20 looks like] police also advise that 21 many of the natives walking around at 22 night are armed with rifles. If this 23 party develops on May the 6th and 24 alcohol is a factor..." 25 Q: Is it, "I anticipate"?


1 A: Yes, I -- that's correct. 2 "... I anticipate the strong 3 possibility of some serious 4 confrontations between the natives and 5 the Military Police on the Base. 6 Inspector J. Carson has been made aware 7 of the above information as has 8 Detective Sergeant M. Wright." 9 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that be marked 10 as an exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1165, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1165: Document number 2001339, 14 Letter from D/C Speck to the 15 Superintendent OPP, 1994. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: And I believe you reported that the 19 outcome of this is that no such event ever occurred? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Insofar as the commanders at the army


1 base, and I'm talking about the military commanders -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall whether or not there 4 was any changes, first of all, in command? 5 A: There were a number of changes. 6 Q: And was there, as a result of those 7 number of changes, any difference in the way that these 8 commanders would approach dealing with the issues that 9 they had at hand? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 12 A: One in particular is -- is Captain 13 Howse. He used to set up roadblocks and throw -- and put 14 stars on the road to protect his so-called built up area 15 of the military base, that if the natives drove down 16 those roads, they would end up with flat tires. 17 I found the way he was doing things, he 18 was just antagonistic towards them. 19 Q: Do you know when he would have begun 20 serving as -- 21 A: I don't when he began. I can't tell 22 you the date he began. I did talk to him over a number 23 of occurrences. 24 Q: Did you give him any advice or 25 suggestions as to his approach on how he was dealing with


1 these matters? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: He's military, I'm not. 5 Q: Right. Do you know if the military 6 had underwent any training with respect to First Nations 7 issues during that period of time? 8 A: Some of them did. But I can't tell 9 you which ones. They changed in there. The military 10 kept changing people. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I don't know how many had it. 13 Q: Can you tell us whether you recalled 14 -- well, let me ask you this. I take it that you 15 wouldn't attend at the army base unless you were summoned 16 or requested or asked to attend? 17 A: That's correct. I didn't patrol in 18 there. 19 Q: Okay. When you would be asked to, as 20 I understand from your evidence thus far, you would be 21 asked from time to time to investigate occurrences. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you find that those attendances 24 increased in frequency or -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- stayed the same? 2 A: Oh, they increased. 3 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether 4 they increased during the tenure of Captain Howse? 5 A: There were a number of occurrences 6 involving -- at the time Captain Howse was in there. 7 Q: All right. If I can ask you to turn 8 to Tab 8 of the book of documents in front of you, there 9 is a letter that is dated May the 4th of 1994 and it's 10 under the hand of W.A. Lacroix, Staff Sergeant. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Who was the Detachment Commander at 13 Lambton County? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now I note, pardon me, that this 16 document, Mr. Commissioner, also appears as part of 17 Exhibit 1093, which you will find at -- at Tab 9, 18 although there is a distinction in that and I simply want 19 to draw that to Officer Speck's attention. 20 First of all, have you seen this letter 21 before, sir? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And perhaps before I refer to it, I'd 24 ask that this be made the next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1166, Your Honour.


1 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1166: Document number 2001338. 3 Letter from Staff Sgt. 4 Lacroix to Lambton County 5 Detachment Officers, May 04, 6 1994. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: And I'll suggest, sir, that this 10 letter outlines a policy or protocol for policing of the 11 Army Base by MPP, that is the milit -- pardon me, by 12 military police and -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- the OPP. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 16 date on the letter, I don't -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: It's dated May the 4th 18 of 1994, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that on 20 the letter somewhere. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm looking at the 22 letter at your Tab 8, at... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was 2 looking at the wrong document. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is the 8 same -- it's the same letter in there. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: It is the same letter, 10 but there is a distinction -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: -- in there and I 13 simply wanted to -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: -- bring that to 16 Officer Speck's attention. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: You'll see, Officer, at the top of 21 page 2, it reads: 22 "It is imperative that the Ontario 23 Provincial Police be seen by all 24 parties as neutral in this ongoing land 25 dispute.


1 Accordingly, it should not be the 2 practice of officers to take coffee 3 breaks and other extended visits at the 4 military base with the exception of 5 Detective Constable Speck who has been 6 designated as the liaison officer for 7 any occurrence taking place on the Base 8 requiring our involvement." 9 End quote. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. First of all, you -- you've 12 indicated you were aware of this policy. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And were you aware of the distinction 15 involving yourself that you were excepted from this 16 policy? 17 A: That I was excepted? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Oh, oh. Okay. Yes. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I didn't take coffee breaks on -- on 22 there though. But I did talk to the military and 23 whenever possible I talked to anybody that would talk to 24 me from the Native side too, so. 25 Q: All right.


1 A: I tried to maintain a neutral ground. 2 Q: There were a number of training 3 seminars in 1994, we understand that were conducted by 4 Officer Wade Lacroix regarding the policing of First 5 Nations at West Ipperwash. 6 Do you recall that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you know whether or not you 9 had attended at any of those? 10 A: I believe I attended to one in -- in 11 this room. 12 Q: All right. And I'll refer you to the 13 document at Tab 9 which is already an exhibit. It's 14 marked as P-1093. It's a Lambton County training manual. 15 That would be the manual that you would 16 have used in your attendance at the training session here 17 in this room, as you've described? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: If I can ask you simply to turn to 20 the second last page of that document. It seemed to 21 indicate a number of individuals who attended on May the 22 18th of '95. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your name appears at item 16? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: All right. That would your sign-in 2 for that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Thank you. And if we could turn in 5 several pages, sir, to the sign-in sheet for May -- June 6 of 1994, approximately seven (7) pages in from that sheet 7 that I just referred you to. You'll see a sign-in sheet 8 that's dated 14 June '94. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I don't know if this is dated but 13 there's one from -- this one from 15 of June you mean? 14 Q: Okay. Sorry. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Oh I see, you might be looking at the 19 one Mr. Roland has pointed out where your name appears at 20 the bottom that is an undated nominal role sheet. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Can you see your name there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so you would have attended at 25 least two (2) of these training sessions; is that fair?


1 A: That's fair. I don't -- can't say I 2 particularly remember this one, but if my name's there I 3 attended it. 4 Q: As a result of those training 5 sessions, together with the experience that you had built 6 up over the period of time within that area, how would 7 you describe, sir, your approach to policing occurrences 8 in and around the Army Camp, that involved the First 9 Nations people that were there? 10 A: I -- I don't understand the question, 11 sir. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: As a result of this training? 14 Q: As a result of this training together 15 with the experience that you've had, the -- the 16 experience of which we've already talked about. You got 17 to know the people, you've built relationships -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- and not only with the military 20 personnel, but with the First Nations people there. 21 What was your approach to policing that 22 area? 23 A: My approach to policing that area was 24 to use as much commonsense as was possible, sir. I 25 wasn't going to favour either side.


1 I have no preconceived ideas about 2 anybody. I took them as they -- the occurrences as they 3 came. Again, part of what I considered my task was, was 4 to keep both sides away from each other and keep it 5 peaceful in there. 6 A few mischiefs happened; I didn't 7 consider that a big deal. 8 Maybe others did, but I didn't consider 9 that a big deal. And if there weren't any charges laid, 10 it's probably because no identification was able to be 11 made of the perpetrators. 12 But the best way I could say was to use a 13 commonsense approach. 14 Q: Thank you, sir. You've already 15 indicated that were there evidence presence, that 16 certainly you would not have hesitated or -- I don't want 17 to put words in your mouth, but you would have laid 18 charges had the -- 19 A: In the more serious cases, I 20 certainly would have. Like, I don't know whether I would 21 have for an outhouse. You know, I would have probably 22 tried to clear it otherwise, with both sides. 23 Q: So to speak. 24 A: But certainly the bigger arson was a 25 concern.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And how did you -- how did you feel 5 that that approach -- how do you think it worked? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I would -- I thought it was working, 10 until Glenn came in charge. 11 Q: And we'll come to that very shortly. 12 You also mentioned that that was the approach that you 13 favoured and perhaps others didn't, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If I can ask you to turn to Tab 11 of 16 the book of documents in front of you, there's a letter 17 there dated September the 8th of '94. 18 It's marked as Exhibit P-1094 in these 19 proceedings. It's addressed to the Superintendent of the 20 OPP, to the attention of acting Inspector G. A. Matthews 21 and it comes under the band of K. Bouwman, Staff 22 Sergeant. 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you'll see that it's in respect


1 to a letter, the name of which is redacted. And it is -- 2 it cites an incident of July 30th of '94. If I can ask 3 you just to go beyond that to the last -- to the next and 4 last bullet on the first page, which reads: 5 "Comments allegedly made by Detective 6 Constable George Speck, Chief Garnet 7 Matthews and Mark Wright would have to 8 be investigated and reported on." 9 A: Yes. 10 1 Q: First of all, do you know what -- 11 what this was about? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And perhaps I can tell you, sir, that 16 Inspector Wright, who testified here on the 21st of 17 February at pages 91 to 94 of the transcript, indicated 18 that as far as he knew, the complaint was lodged by a 19 cottager pursuant to an incident where an officer adhered 20 to comments or instructions of the training manual 21 provided by Inspector Wright. 22 A: I don't recall that at all, sir. 23 Q: Okay. So you aren't aware of any 24 such complaint that was made? 25


1 A: I don't recall it anyway. 2 Q: Do you know whether or not an 3 investigation had occurred as a result of that complaint? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay, thank you. You had mentioned 6 earlier that the leadership... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Mr. Roland indicates that this is in 11 respect to the LaPratte letter. I've already asked you 12 about that and you'll see at page 2 -- 13 A: Yes, I see that. 14 Q: -- that, in fact, it does indicate 15 Mrs. LaPratte's name. 16 But again, just to be clear, you're not 17 aware of any -- of any such investigation that would have 18 resulted in respect to yourself or any comments that you 19 might have made? 20 A: No, nobody ever spoke to me about it. 21 Q: Thank you. You had mentioned that 22 the leadership among those First Nations people in 23 occupation of the Camp was -- or -- or did change from 24 time to time. 25 What can you tell us about that please?


1 A: Well, Carl was in charge for a while, 2 Maynard George was in charge for a while. 3 Q: When you say, "Maynard George --" 4 A: Maynard T. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: Glenn was in charge for a while. The 7 Jewel boys seemed to be calling the shots for a while in 8 there. Judas seemed to be calling some shots in there. 9 There was no steady leadership. 10 Q: And how would you learn of any 11 changes that might occur? You've indicated already a 12 number of people that you thought would be, as you put 13 it, "calling the shots." 14 A: Just from being there, just from 15 being there, talking to the Military or -- or see what's 16 going on. You'd go to talk to somebody and the person 17 you'd talk to has changed. 18 Q: I take it that there would no public 19 announcements -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- or any such thing made? 22 A: No. They were doing their own 23 business. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Part of your role around that time 2 was to gather information in sort of an intelligence 3 gathering capacity; is that -- is that fair? 4 A: I wasn't an intelligence officer. It 5 wasn't part of my designation, but if information came to 6 me I certainly passed it on. 7 Q: Okay. And what sort of sources 8 without obviously -- without naming anybody in 9 particular, what -- what would your sources of this type 10 of information be? 11 A: Citizens from around the area, some 12 from the Military, some from the Native community, 13 everywhere. I talked to -- I can't tell you how many 14 people I talked to down that way. 15 Q: All right. And what would happen 16 with this information when you would -- when you would 17 come into possession of it? 18 A: I would pass it on, generally up to 19 Mark Wright or -- and it would go into the Intelligence 20 Unit. And what they did with it I don't know. 21 Q: And who did you know to be in the 22 Intelligence Unit, as you've described it? 23 A: Don Bell and Darryl Whitehead were 24 the main ones I dealt with at the beginning. 25 Q: Did you receive, in turn, information


1 back from them or...? 2 A: They always came to me wanting to 3 know things; they never gave me anything back. 4 Q: It's a one (1) way street, if I can 5 put it that way? 6 A: From our intelligence people, yeah. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: It was. 9 Q: Did you have any role, sir, in terms 10 of attempting to verify any of the information that you 11 would have passed on? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you know what happened to this 14 information once you passed it along? 15 A: No. 16 Q: I understand that you had some -- 17 well, just before I move on, were you aware of an 18 individual that we've heard something about in this 19 Inquiry by the name of Jim Moses? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You had some role in -- in 22 identifying individuals, as I understand? 23 A: Yeah, the Intelligence guys would 24 come up and show me photos and want to know who's who in 25 them. While I didn't know everybody I certainly was able


1 to identify quite a few to them. What they wanted it 2 for, they never said. 3 Q: And did this function -- that was 4 during the time that -- that the people were in 5 occupation of the Army Base? 6 A: Some, because they wanted to know who 7 was in and out of there. I took down licence plates and 8 passed that on. I'd just park out on Army Camp Road and 9 take plates that were going in. 10 A lot of that was after the Military left; 11 most of it was after the Military left. 12 Q: And we know the Military left or were 13 told the Military left in July of '95? 14 A: 5 was it? Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And that was a... 17 Q: Okay. And I might -- I might just 18 jump ahead for a moment here, but we also know that 19 eventually the Ipperwash Provincial Park was occupied. 20 And did -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- you have a similar role during 23 that period of time? 24 A: In the Provincial Park? 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: I was called in the night that it 2 happened and I was -- 3 Q: And I'm -- I'm just asking you right 4 now, Officer Speck, whether you had a role in terms of 5 identifying individuals as you've described. 6 A: Oh, all right, I see. Yes. 7 Q: Okay, thank you. During this period 8 of time and again, I'm -- I'm -- I regret now jumping 9 ahead but did you have any communications with MNR staff 10 during the period that we were earlier talking about? 11 A: I may have talked to Don Matheson or 12 Les Kobayashi. But in discussions of -- for the Park you 13 mean? 14 Q: Well, either with respect to the Park 15 or either to the camp. 16 A: There were concerns expressed about 17 the -- the way they were driving -- the Natives were 18 driving up and the Matheson Drive area. There were 19 concerns when they were shining lights in on the campers. 20 I never had any discussions of -- at the 21 beginning, of what was going to happen if they went into 22 the Park. 23 Q: Okay. So you didn't receive any 24 information from any MNR personnel that you've just 25 described about what might happen?


1 A: Not from MNR, no. 2 Q: Thank you. If I can take you then to 3 the summer of 1995, you were again called to respond to a 4 number of incidents that were occurring in the late -- 5 late spring and summer of 1995? 6 A: All right. 7 Q: And we'll come to some specific 8 incidents. But before we go to that, do you know Glenn 9 George became the -- I'm going to venture out here and 10 say spokesperson? 11 A: I don't know exactly when it was. 12 Q: Can you describe your relationship 13 with Glenn George? 14 A: Well, Glenn would talk to me 15 sometimes, but other times he'd just -- I'd be talking to 16 him then he'd start just screaming right in my face. 17 Never anything physical. 18 His conversations would be erratic to me. 19 And at other times we just talked normal, you know. 20 Q: You had a report that you had 21 attended to on May the 31st of 1995? And Commissioner, 22 you'll find that at what's marked as page 40 and 1160. 23 Officer Speck, you'll find that at your 24 book 8, page 17. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there's an incident that you're 4 following up on at 12:15 hours. 5 A: Yes. At CFB Ipperwash it's got an 6 OMPAC occurrence 8404-6 victim Carl Reuben Bressette. 7 Anyway it occurred on the 30th of May at approximately 8 15:00 hours. 9 He was out cutting grass at a trailer on 10 the Military Base when someone in a red pickup truck 11 fired some shots over his head. 12 Then the -- then the truck left. He 13 didn't see who it was. I checked with the military and I 14 think they said they sixteen (16) similar vehicles in and 15 out of the Army Camp. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And you'll just go to -- to 17 the bottom of your page 18 and I take it that this is in 18 relation to the trucks. I see there's a notation that 19 reads: 20 "Didn't see who or how many were in the 21 truck." 22 A: "Couldn't -- couldn't say -- didn't 23 see who was in the truck. I asked who 24 he thought it might be and he said -- 25 he gave me a name but he wasn't sure of


1 the last name, but said he -- he was 2 from Sarnia. 3 Couldn't say why he thought it was 4 him. Didn't see who it was, didn't see 5 who or how many were in the truck. I 6 then spoke to Glenn George on Stoney 7 Point who hadn't -- who hadn't heard 8 about the incident." 9 Q: Okay. And the reason that I ask you 10 to take a look at that, do we take it from that, that 11 Glenn George was, as you put it earlier, calling the 12 shots at that time? 13 A: It's probably around that time. 14 Q: All right. And just continue if you 15 would, please. 16 A: Only I can't say for sure when he 17 took over. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: "Glenn said he would investigate and 20 take care of it, according to their 21 laws. I told him to investigate and 22 let me know what he finds out, so we 23 could look after it, which he agreed to 24 do. That's when I went and spoke to 25 the Sergeant at the military base who


1 advised he had sixteen (16) red pick up 2 trucks in and out of the camp with the 3 natives in them." 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And if you could just read that next 8 entry. 9 A: "This same Officer, or Sergeant -- he 10 also advised they may be pulling out of 11 base on August the 4th." 12 Q: Okay. Just before I go into that, 13 just with respect to the complaint, what happened as a 14 result of that complaint? 15 A: Nothing. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Mr. Roland points out that there is a 20 document. We don't have it in our book of documents, 21 Commissioner. It's Inquiry document 2004282. It is an 22 incident summary dated -- or a general occurrence report, 23 I should say, which would appear to be filled out by 24 yourself, sir. 25 Do you recall filling out --


1 A: I probably -- 2 Q: -- a general occurrence report -- 3 A: -- would have. 4 Q: -- in relation to that? Perhaps I 5 can ask that that be marked as an exhibit, then. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1167, Your Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 8 a copy of it to provide to us. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: I will, with Mr. 10 Roland's permission, simply extract his copy. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1167: Document number 2004282. 13 General Occurrence Report, 14 May 30, 1996 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, what 17 number is it? 18 THE REGISTRAR: 1167, Your Honour. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: With My Friend's 23 permission, I could give a copy of it as well to the 24 witness, because I think it explains why the charges 25 weren't pursued, if he wants to look at it.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: And if you could take a look at that, 10 Officer Speck. 11 You indicated that nothing became of this 12 incident and that there were no charges. Having looked 13 at this general occurrence report, can you tell us why? 14 A: He didn't want to proceed with it any 15 farther and we didn't identify anybody anyway. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: But he didn't want to proceed with 18 it. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry, Commissioner, 23 if I could just take a moment. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:


1 Q: The last entry that I've asked you to 2 read into the record from your notation from May the 3 31st, 1995 in book 8, Officer, indicated that you were 4 informed that the military may be pulling out of the Base 5 as of August the 4th? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you receive any information 8 contrary to that? 9 A: Later on I did from -- I think it -- 10 I think it might have been the Sergeant Major who told me 11 that they weren't. 12 Q: Okay. Sorry. And if you could turn 13 to your book 8 at page 40. It's to be found at page 45, 14 Commissioner, of -- of 1160. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Yes? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Yeah. Let me just go back. It is at 23 the bottom of page 21 and continues at the top of -- 24 pardon me 29 and continues at the top of page 30. And 25 that is at our page 43/44, Commissioner.


1 Do you see that entry, Officer Speck, the 2 very last entry at the bottom of your page 29? 3 4 A: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes, I have it, it starts up at the 9 top you mean? 10 Q: Yeah. If you could just read that 11 please and what -- what does it indicate? 12 A: Possible gun running. 13 Q: Pardon me. Just before we get to 14 that I'm just trying to get you to finish the -- dealing 15 with the last point. 16 You had earlier received information from 17 the Sergeant Major that they would be pulling out on the 18 4th of August? 19 A: No, sir, this -- the Sergeant Major 20 told me after this that they wouldn't be. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: This is the -- 23 Q: -- and that's all that I'm drawing 24 your attention to. If you could look at the last line on 25 your page 29, it's the -- it's the same page that you're


1 looking at. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Spoke to..." and it continues on the 4 next page. Would you just read that please? 5 A: "Spoke to the Sergeant Major at the 6 Camp who advised that they are not pulling 7 out of the Camp in August." 8 Q: All right. So that was -- that was 9 the conflicting evidence -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- that you would have received 12 from -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- what you've testified to. Thank 15 you. 16 If you want to go back to then the -- the 17 top of that page as you were just starting and I'd 18 interrupted you? That entry I -- I would note is from 19 Thursday, June the 1st of 1995. 20 A: June the 5th? 21 Q: June the 5th? All right. Thank you. 22 And go ahead with -- with reading it for us if you would? 23 A: It's information of someone possibly 24 running guns. 25 Q: The person that's identified is Isaac


1 Charles Doxtator; correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Continue. 4 A: From Munsey. It gives a description 5 of Munsey Reserve -- from Munsey Reserve: 6 "Five foot nine (5'9"), two hundred and 7 twenty (220) pounds. Long grey hair. 8 Vehicle, '85 Lincoln Continental, 9 brown. Licence 452 TYF. Ontario. Old 10 model Ford pickup licence LF7 366. 11 Info from Sergeant Mike Popovich, Army 12 Intelligence and OPP Intelligence. He 13 is heavily into gun running. Was in 14 Montreal 2 June, in morning and then on 15 Stoney Point on 2 June,'95 in the p.m. 16 Spoke with Mike Keegen London JFO 17 Intelligence. Advised they are aware 18 of Doxtator and hear rumours that he 19 wants to get fertilizer explosives to 20 blow up pumphouse for the Army Camp. 21 Will forward a package P.C. Hernandez 22 to contact Keegan." 23 Q: Let -- let me just back you up a 24 little bit if I may, Officer. It says: 25 "And hear rumours that -- "


1 I think you said 'he', does that read 2 'they'? I just want your clarification on that. 3 A: 'They'. 4 "And hear rumours they want to get 5 fertilizer explosion to blow up 6 pumphouse for the Army Camp." 7 Q: And aside from passing that 8 information along what -- what if anything did you do 9 with that? It looks like you received that information, 10 did you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what did you do with that? 13 A: I would have passed it onto probably 14 Mark Wright. I probably would have passed it onto Don 15 Bell too. Although it looks like the DFO, the 16 intelligence officers already knew about it, so. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. And if you passed this 18 along to Mark Wright, do you know what if anything became 19 of that information? 20 A: I don't know whatever became of it. 21 Q: Let me turn you nextly then, sir, to 22 a number of incidences that would seem to -- that you 23 were investigating and this is at your page 40, Tuesday 24 13th of June 1995. 25 Commissioner, that would appear at pages


1 45 and onward. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: Of P-1160. 6 A: Yes. 7 "Captain Howse reported several 8 incidents to me between the Natives and 9 the military personnel between the 9th 10 and 12th of June '95. 11 Number 1 was at 20:15 hours of the 9th 12 of June. Military vehicle was 13 patrolling the training area that was 14 hit on the driver side window with a 15 bag of rotting fish and other garbage 16 while passing through Site 'B' at 17 Dudley's place -- by Dudley George's. 18 No damage. 19 Item 2 was at 21:40 the 10th of June. 20 Military vehicle was on patrol in the 21 training area and the range patrol was 22 followed by two (2) male Natives in a 23 white Pontiac, no plates when Natives 24 began throwing eight (8) to ten (10) 25 oak wood blocks 8" x 4" x 2" and


1 shooting rocks with a slingshot. 2 Patrol stopped their vehicle in an 3 attempt to identify those responsible 4 but could not [excuse me] but could not 5 identify who it was. Patrol then left. 6 Item number 3 was at 00:15 hours, 11 7 June. A white Pontiac with two (2) 8 male Natives entered the built up area 9 and left shortly after with no 10 confrontation. 11 Number 4 was at 10:30 hours the 12th of 12 June. A patrol was being conducted by 13 the officer in charge (Howse) and the 14 Camp Sergeant Major (Taylor) of the 15 training area in Site 'K' and came into 16 view of Glenn George and two (2) other 17 male Natives one of which began to 18 throw stones at the vehicle. 19 Two ( 2) rocks were thrown at the two 20 (2) military people outside the 21 vehicle. The Sergeant Major told them 22 there was no need for stone throwing as 23 the patrol was not meant to bother or 24 harass any of them but just carrying 25 out routine directions (patrols).


1 Glenn George then moved forward and the 2 stone throwing stopped. When George 3 was within inches of the Sergeant 4 Major, he stated they (rock throwers) 5 were also following direction and don't 6 tell them to stop. It was also stated 7 that there's no need for you (patrol) 8 to be in the area and soon you will be 9 removed from the area. 10 When further questioned about who had 11 given the direction, George did not 12 reply. When further questioned about 13 what the military would be removed 14 from, he stated we will soon pick you 15 up and put you over the front gate for 16 good. 17 There was an attempt to explain the 18 reason for the patrols of the danger 19 areas, but George would not listen. 20 Patrol then left with no further 21 incidents. Captain Howse then 22 expressed some concerns about the 23 natives occupying some of the main 24 building because the military assets 25 have been removed from them and natives


1 are aware of this. 2 It appears Kettle Point was going to 3 lose their injunction on the 4 environmental assessment and it would 5 probably go ahead in July. 6 He was concerned for the safety of the 7 people coming in for the assessment, 8 'cause both the Kettle Point and Stoney 9 Point people would not have any impact 10 in it." 11 It looks like I faxed this information to 12 Wright and Bouwman, Superintendent and the Chief 13 Superintendent. 14 Q: As a result of these various reports 15 that were made to you, Officer Speck, were there any 16 charges? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. Did anything else become 19 of it? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You've described the style of -- of 22 Captain Howse in terms of his command of the -- of the 23 centre. I think you've used the word "antagonistic". 24 A: That's my opinion. 25 Q: And I understand that. You've


1 indicated that as part of what he was doing was setting 2 stars on roads, that sort of thing? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I think you've indicated? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And these incidents that you were 9 then investigating, would that be part of what you've 10 described as well as some of the friction that -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- I think you thought was 13 inevitable? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: You eventually received further 20 information, sir, in June of 1995 and I'd ask you to look 21 at your notes for June 16th of 1995, of a demonstration 22 that was planned on Highway 21 for July 1st. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: Yes. 2 "I received information from a -- the 3 Town of Bosanquet employee that he 4 heard from a what he called a reliable 5 source that on July 1 weekend the 6 natives at Ipperwash are having a 7 demonstration and closing 21 Highway. 8 Possible -- possibility of warriors 9 that are armed with guns will also be 10 there. I asked him to call his 11 informant to see if he'll talk to me 12 and I advised Mark Wright of this." 13 This... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Just with respect to this planned 18 demonstration on Highway 21, do you know whether or not 19 that demonstration ever went ahead? 20 A: Never took place. 21 Q: All right. And if I can just go 22 back, Mr. Roland has pointed out, you'd indicated earlier 23 that you thought you might have faxed that information, 24 meaning the previous incidents that were complained of to 25 you, that you investigated --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- to Officer Wright? If you can 3 turn to Tab 13 of the book of documents in front of you. 4 There is a cover sheet together with four (4) -- pardon 5 me, four (4) -- yes, four (4) pages, a letter of June 6 13th under your hand, together with an Incident Report 7 under the hand of Captain Howse -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- dated the 12th of June. I should 10 indicate that these are already marked as Exhibit P-559 11 in these proceedings. That is the telefax that you would 12 have sent along? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: If I can ask you to turn nextly, sir, 19 to the document at Tab 13 -- 14, pardon me, which is a 20 General Occurrence Report of mischief, mischief under. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. That is an OMPAC report? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Perhaps I'll ask that 25 that be entered as an exhibit, and then I'll refer you to


1 it, Mr. Speck. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1168, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1168: Document number 2002439. 5 Occurrence Reports, June 27 6 and 28, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: And what does that report describe, 10 sir? 11 A: It describes a confrontation with 12 Captain Howse and Glenn. It's an incident from the 27th 13 of June. 14 "Received a phone call from Staff 15 Sergeant Bouwman requesting I attend 16 CFB Ipperwash and contact Captain Howse 17 re. a threatening and mischief 18 complaint. 19 Howse gave me a rundown on what 20 happened. He set barricades up on 21 Perth Road, north of the observation 22 post. This morning Glenn George was on 23 a blue tractor and was removing the -- 24 the barriers. 25 Howse was watching George. George then


1 drove the tractor to where Howse was. 2 Glenn demanded to know why the Military 3 was putting things on the road. And if 4 any of his people got hurt Glenn told 5 the Military they shouldn't be on any 6 part of the -- this land, they had to 7 get off now. Glenn said he'd tell the 8 cops, [brackets] (MP's), and the bitch, 9 [brackets] (female MP), to back off or 10 I'll get my gun and shoot all of you." 11 And I've got his name down as a victim. 12 He'd prepared a statement for me. The -- I have the 13 names of the Military officers; I obtained statements 14 from them. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: There were further witnesses. 19 "Glenn also drove the tractor into the 20 left side of the Military vehicle 21 causing damage to the driver's side 22 door and the left side of the box; 23 approximately nine hundred dollars 24 ($900) damage." 25 Q: Okay. And just for the record, sir,


1 you were reading from your notebook at your page 50, 2 which coincidentally corresponds, Mr. Commissioner, to 3 page 50, 51, and 52 of -- of 1160. And that is your own 4 notes in relation to the Incident Report which we've 5 marked as 1168? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Thank you. As a result of that 8 complaint I understand that Mr. George was then charged? 9 A: No, I can't remember whether he was 10 charged out of this one or not. 11 Q: I'm sorry. Perhaps I can have you 12 look at the document at Tab 14 again, the Occurrence 13 Report? And if you can turn to the second page of 14 Exhibit 1168? There's handwriting that appears at the 15 bottom of that, is that your handwriting? 16 A: Glenn -- it says: 17 "Glenn George to be charged with other 18 threats Section 264.1(a) and then 19 mischief Section 431(a)." 20 Q: And do you know if, in fact, he was 21 charged -- 22 A: I can't remember whether I charged 23 with that or not. 24 Q: All right. If I can refer you 25 nextly, sir, to Tab Number 15, there is information which


1 has been marked as Exhibit P-146. You are the informant, 2 sir. It's information charging Glenn Morris George, 3 there are three (3) counts alleged in there, you've just 4 indicated. 5 A: Apparently I did charge him. 6 Q: And if you look at counts number 3 7 and 4 relating to -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- an event of 27th of June 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Admit the charge of mischief. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that was damage to a 1976 GMC 14 truck, property of the Department of National Defense. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And count number 4 on 17 that same information dated -- or alleges an incident of 18 the same date, alleging uttering a threat to cause death 19 to Allan Howse. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So as you've just indicated, I think, 22 you did, in fact, charge him. 23 A: Apparently I did. 24 Q: Thank you. Perhaps there's one last 25 area that I would take you to before I ask Mr.


1 Commissioner for the afternoon break. 2 There is an incident which occurred at the 3 main gate of the Army Camp in late June of 1995. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall investigating that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And would go ahead and tell us about 8 that? You may want to refer to your notes which you will 9 find at your page 53. And again, it corresponds to our 10 page 53, Commissioner, of 1160. 11 A: Yes. 12 "On the 28th of June I was briefed on 13 an MP vehicle being run off the road on 14 21 Highway during the night. Also 15 briefed on an assault that occurred 16 last night." 17 Do you want the names, or no? 18 Q: We -- we've already had the names 19 mentioned in these proceedings so -- 20 A: All right. The victim of the assault 21 was Donald Stevens. The second victim was -- or -- that 22 was the witness. At any rate: 23 "At 10:30 I went to CFB Ipperwash. 24 Info received from three (3) MP's. Had 25 a run- in with Glenn George and Worm,


1 who is Stewart George, where Glenn 2 assaulted the commissionaire and a 3 range patrol officer. 4 And Glenn was charged out of that 5 incident." 6 Q: And just if I can again draw your 7 attention to the information that you had looked at at 8 Tab 15, that is marked as P -- Exhibit P-146. 9 You'll see counts number 1 and counts 10 number 2 relate to charges of assault against Glenn 11 Morris George. Are those the -- 12 A: That's the charges from that 13 incident. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now perhaps I can refer you to a -- 19 to another matter. I think we still have some time 20 before the lunch hour, Commissioner? Do you want me to 21 proceed? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. No, 23 carry on. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, thank you. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: In early July of 1995 you had 3 received a further report of -- of tires being slashed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you were called then to 6 investigate that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Would you tell us about that please? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: To assist My Friend, I 10 think that this is all part of the June 28th events. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- the tires are 13 -- I think are part of the event that led to the assault 14 charges as well, involving Glenn George. 15 So perhaps you -- the witness -- so the 16 witness can be oriented before questioned. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: And I appreciate that 18 clarification. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Mr. Roland. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: I hope that helps, Officer. 24 A: Yes. 25 "Got a call from Staff Sergeant Bouwman


1 that Glenn George wanted a meeting at 2 their Council hall. We went to the 3 hall -- I went to the hall with 4 Bouwman, approximately twenty (20) 5 Natives present. They wanted Bouwman 6 to take off his gun off before entering 7 the structure. He refused. Glenn said 8 he was not bound by our laws, not even 9 on 21 Highway. Asked him who owns the 10 station wagon involved in forcing 11 military vehicle off of the 21 Highway 12 and he said that was Native business, 13 not ours. 14 Said the people here [brackets] 15 (Natives) are governing themselves and 16 are not bound by our laws. 17 Glenn said he stopped a drunk MP by the 18 name of -- " 19 Do you want those names? 20 Q: Howard Simcoe? 21 A: "Howard Simcoe last night on Matheson 22 Drive around 2:30 this morning. The MP 23 was Native and from Rama reserve and 24 that he didn't want to be here. He 25 said the prophecies is that they will


1 use our people against us, referring to 2 the police, and the military using 3 Natives against Natives. 4 He said at the gatehouse one of the MPs 5 pulled a gun out. That's when Glenn 6 and Worm left. 7 Glenn also advised between 1:00 and 8 2:00 a.m. someone slashed the tires on 9 a car at Dudley's place and also the 10 tires on an ATV which they [bracket] 11 (Natives) have moved down to the beach. 12 No witnesses. Natives think it was the 13 military. I checked car at Dudley's 14 place and found a 1982 Pontiac 15 Parisienne, four (4) door, white, no 16 plates, vin number 2G7AL69HXD1700298 17 with four (4) flat tires. Moto-master 18 G-15 tires all flattened with unknown 19 objects. 20 Natives had put sticks and screws in 21 the holes so they could show me where 22 the tires had been punctured. 23 Owner Warren Anthony George lives in 24 Dud's trailer. The tires from the ATV 25 had been removed and taken to John's


1 Tire for repairs, prior to my arrival. 2 I interviewed several MPs..." 3 Q: Including Howard Simcoe? 4 A: "Including Howard Simcoe and all 5 denied any knowledge of the tires." 6 I will say that the area where Glenn had 7 his run in with Simcoe was at the opposite end of the 8 base than where the car was parked. 9 It was down by Matheson Drive. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And the car was parked by 21 Highway. 12 "There were no witnesses to the 13 slashing of the tires. The tires 14 themselves were useless for any tools 15 because they stuck the items in the 16 holes, thus damaging any forensic 17 evidence that could be determined. 18 Never found out who did it. Nobody was 19 ever charged with it." 20 Q: And we take it from that, that there 21 was no charges entered? 22 A: No. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And, sir, at Tab 14, which we've 2 already marked as Exhibit P-1168, there is a general 3 occurrence report which is the third page in; do you see 4 that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that is the occurrence report 7 with respect to the investigation you've just described-- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- from your notes? And if you go to 10 the second page of that report there's some handwriting 11 at the end of that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Could you just tell us about that? 14 A: Yes. It says: 15 "I feel the Natives did the -- this 16 damage themselves." 17 Now, the only reason I would think that 18 is because of the items being put in the -- where the 19 tires were cut. I have no evidence that they did it 20 themselves. Why I even wrote that on there is beyond me. 21 Q: And if I turn you next -- nextly to 22 Tab Number 16 it would appear to be a memo from under the 23 hand of Captain Ashford-Smith? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It's relating to the tire -- the OPP


1 Maple [dash] alleged tire slashing incident? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you'll see at point number 5, and 4 it reads: 5 "Detective Constable Speck of the OPP 6 investigated these allegations and 7 found no evidence to back them up. 8 Charges were not pursued." 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that corresponds to the evidence 11 you've just given us now. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And perhaps, lastly, just to finish 14 off this general area, did you investigate the incident 15 with respect to Howard Simcoe, that you've already 16 described? 17 A: There were no charges laid out of 18 that incident. 19 Q: Okay. Sorry. Pardon me one (1) sec. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Perhaps the memo that I've just 24 referred to from Captain Ashford-Smith, Mr. Commissioner, 25 if that could be marked as the next exhibit, please?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The one at 2 Tab 16? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: At Tab 16, Inquiry 4 Document 7000261? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1169, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1169: Document number 7000261, Memo 8 from C. Ashford-Smith. Re: 9 Alleged Tire slashing 10 incident. July 06, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Now you did investigate the incident 14 involving Howard Simcoe? 15 A: Yes, I took the information for it. 16 Q: And you've indicated that there were 17 no charges as a consequence of that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the reason for that? 20 A: I don't know right now. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps this is a good place, 22 Commissioner, if we might take the lunch break? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. We'll take a lunch break now. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands


1 adjourned until 1:15. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 12:03 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 1:17 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Officer Speck, you had indicated that 11 you'd investigated a matter involving one Howard Simcoe 12 and I note that you have an entry in your book at your 13 page 56 of book 8. 14 A: As soon as I can get my glasses, I 15 have them caught on something. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Book 8, sir? 21 Q: Yes. This is all part of an 22 investigation I believe you were conducting 25 June 1995. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if you go to page 56 of that, 25 you'd indicated at 13:45 hours you'd taken statements


1 from a number of military personnel including Howard 2 Simcoe. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I wonder if you would just continue 5 if you would, read your notations of that investigation? 6 A: "Statement taken from all three (3)--" 7 Starting there? 8 Q: Yes starting at -- yes, correct. 9 A: "All said they got drunk in 10 sergeant's mess and then went down to 11 beach. When they were coming back a 12 car came onto Matheson Drive and Brown 13 and Albright climbed the fence and fled 14 back to the Base. 15 Simcoe was approached by Glenn George, 16 Worm [excuse me] with Glenn George and 17 Worm. Simcoe's shirt which had his 18 watch in the pocket was pulled off of 19 him. 20 The shirt wasn't done up. Then Glenn 21 hit him on the neck and face with 22 shirt. Glenn asked Simcoe what he was 23 doing there several times. Simcoe saw 24 a chance and ran away. He ran out onto 25 Army Camp Road and met a range patrol


1 vehicle which pulled -- which picked 2 him up. 3 They drove up to and inside the main 4 gate. Glenn George came up behind them 5 and stopped outside the gate. George 6 came inside the gate on foot and got 7 into an altercation with Sergeant John 8 Wayne Hennessey. Simcoe was then taken 9 to his barracks. 10 I then spoke to Sergeant Hennessey, 11 advised the range patrol officer was 12 punched by Glenn George at the main 13 gate last night. Also range officer 14 Arthur Genge -- or Arthur George Genge 15 [it's got his date of birth and his 16 address]. 17 Hennessey will get in touch with Genge 18 and both of them will prepare 19 statements for the assault on Genge." 20 Stop there? 21 Q: And that was essentially the balance 22 of your investigation and I think you've already told us, 23 we've looked at the documents, that you charged Glenn 24 George as a consequence of that. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: But that was the event that had led 2 up to that -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- particular incident. Thank you. 5 I -- I'll ask you to turn next to your page 60 and again, 6 Commissioner, that corresponds with our page 60 of 1160. 7 It's your entries of June 30th of 1995 and 8 you have a call-back re: arson; again it's CFB 9 Ipperwash. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And perhaps you can just tell us what 12 happened there and what did you investigate? 13 A: "00:15 call-back re: an arson CFB 14 Ipperwash. A frame and tin building 15 used for tear gas training was set on 16 fire. Building approximately fifteen 17 (15) feet by twenty (20) feet was set 18 on fire. Appears a flammable substance 19 was put on the floor in the front of 20 the building inside the front door on 21 south side of the building and then 22 ignited by unknown means. 23 Floor burnt through in five (5) areas 24 just inside the front door. Entire 25 shed destroyed. Thedford Fire


1 Department attended [names the fire 2 chief]. 3 Corporal Lambertus Tops was in the 4 observation post west of the gas house 5 when at approximately 11:30 p.m. he 6 heard Terry George's dogs barking in 7 the tree line behind the gas house. He 8 checked the area with night glasses and 9 saw a flash of light and observed three 10 (3) males several feet to the east of 11 the gas shed. 12 A car appeared on 21 Highway and they 13 went behind the gas shed. Two (2) were 14 young males, collar/shoulder length 15 hair, five six (5'6"), five [I don't 16 know what that is] five six (5'6") five 17 -- small build. One (1) was six three 18 (6'3") two hundred (200) pounds, longer 19 hair, large build. Statement obtained." 20 Q: Is the entry on the next page part of 21 that, where it says: 22 "Private -- Provincial Constable L. B. 23 George took initial complaint and will 24 add incident on OMPAC" 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And what if anything resulted out of 2 this investigation? 3 A: Nothing. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And you'd indicated earlier with 8 respect to the information you had received about the 9 possibility of a demonstration taking place on July 1st 10 that no such demonstration occurred? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And you have your notes of July 1st 13 at page 63 and there is no notation of that, yes? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: If I can refer you next then to page 16 -- your page 66 which I understand to be part of your 17 book 8? This would be Tuesday, July 4th is it? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it looks like at 11:00 hours you 20 are undertaking an investigation and perhaps you can just 21 go ahead and tell us about that? 22 A: It was a sexual assault complaint 23 that occurred between 13:15 hours and 13:30 hours the 3rd 24 of July/'95 at Ipperwash Beach in the area of the 25 Provincial Park.


1 "Reported to COM Centre by [and then a 2 lady's name]. Victim was her thirteen 3 (13) year old daughter. The 4 responsible person was a male Indian 5 approximately forty (40) years, five 6 feet eleven (5'11"), heavy build, 7 moustache, long braided brown hair, 8 riding an ATV. He asked the girl if 9 she wanted a ride and she said yes. 10 She thought she would be riding it 11 alone but he jumped on behind her. He 12 then grabbed her breast four (4) or 13 five (5) times and when she resisted he 14 dumped her off the machine and left. 15 We were never able to identify this 16 person." 17 Q: Okay. And accordingly there was no - 18 - there was no charge laid? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Similarly you had some reports of -- 21 on that same date -- of two (2) natives with a nine (9) 22 millimetre -- with nine (9) millimetre handguns on the 23 beach and you investigated that? 24 A: It turned out to be a couple of kids 25 with pellet guns from -- they were from Kettle Point.


1 All it -- 2 Q: Is this -- I'm sorry. 3 A: All I did was take them to the Kettle 4 Point police who took them to their parents. 5 Q: Okay. Is there such a thing as a 9 6 mm pellet gun? 7 A: Well, that's -- it appeared to be a 9 8 mm. 9 They turned out to be pellet guns. 10 Q: All right. At some point in time 11 with respect to the charges that were laid against Glenn 12 George, he turned himself in at the Forest Detachment by 13 agreement with yourself. Is that -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And did that happen on the 6th 16 of July of 1995? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I'm looking at your page -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah, 70 -- I think it's 71. 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: Perhaps you can just tell us about 25 that.


1 A: He did turn himself in at 08:40 2 hours, on a warrant we had for him for assault and 3 mischief and uttering death threats. 4 "Advised he had already contacted a 5 lawyer and did not wish to call one. I 6 photographed and printed him and took 7 him to Sarnia where he was released 8 with conditions on recognizance. 9 When we arrived at the Courthouse, I 10 again asked him if he wanted to talk to 11 a lawyer and he said no. 12 He was released for a Court date of 24 13 July '95. Taken back to Stoney Point." 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Do you know what happened as a result 18 of -- of that appearance? 19 A: He was -- yeah, he was released, and 20 I drove him back to Stoney Point. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And the next entry following that,


1 officer? 2 A: I spoke to Sergeant John Barrow of 3 the camp and I don't have no -- do not have a notation as 4 to why. 5 The next was at 12:45. 6 "Attempt to locate Glenn George for 7 Sergeant Barrow, so he could arrange 8 meeting with Captain Smith and there 9 was negative results. 10 I then spoke to a -- a military Colonel 11 from London who just wanted to know 12 what occurred." 13 Q: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: If I could just have one moment, 18 please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: If I can refer you next to your page 23 75, which is an entry on Tuesday the 11th of July 1995. 24 Commissioner, that would be at page 70 of Exhibit 1160. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: It would appear that you were 2 facilitating a meeting between Glenn George and Inspector 3 Linton? 4 A: Yes. The meeting was set up for the 5 12th of July between them at Stoney Point. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And do you know if that meeting took 10 place? 11 A: Yes, it did. 12 Q: Do you know the outcome of that 13 meeting? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know, for example, 16 whether there was some discussions about the resolution 17 of the land claim that -- 18 A: I don't know what took place at that 19 meeting. 20 Q: All right, thank you. Commissioner, 21 I can tell you that we do have an Inquiry document, 22 2000540, which is a notation or a memo from the late 23 Inspector Linton who refers to that meeting in some 24 detail, and I'd simply put that on the record so that it 25 can be referred to if anybody wishes.


1 Aside from setting up that meeting, you 2 didn't speak further with -- with Glenn George? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. Sir, I next want to take 5 you to your entry at page 80 which is Saturday the 29th 6 of July 1995. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And you know that on that 9 date the -- the built-up area I think as you've described 10 it, and we've heard it described here in these 11 proceedings, was moved into by the people that were in 12 occupation of the range previous to that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Did you go into the Base to do 15 any form of investigation or -- or any type of 16 intervention at all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Can you tell us what if anything you 19 did with respect to that event? 20 A: Just hung around out front mainly. 21 Tried to make arrangements with the people of Stoney 22 Point -- attempted to arrange a meeting with people -- 23 the Stoney Point people might listen to. 24 I don't know what that means or who I was 25 trying to make it with.


1 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 2 not at that point in time that there was an apparent 3 spokesperson or someone who had self-identified as a 4 spokesperson from amongst that group? 5 A: I don't think they had arranged one 6 yet. Let me read on here. No, because you'll see on the 7 next page, my page 81 from Sunday the 30th of July '95. 8 "I spoke with Superintendent Parkin and 9 Inspector Carson, Detective Sergeant 10 Wright. I went to CFB Ipperwash with 11 Detective Sergeant Wright and Staff 12 Sergeant Bouwman. 13 The Natives did not have a spokesperson 14 yet. They're having a meeting at 15 14:00. Will meet with us at 15:00. 16 At 15:00 I was there with Bouwman and 17 Wright and no meeting was held at that 18 time. At 19:05 I was back there with 19 Staff Sergeant Bouwman. We met Bert -- 20 Bruce Manning. Bruce wouldn't talk to 21 Bouwman in front of me so I backed off 22 and they had some type of discussion 23 which I did not overhear." 24 Q: You'd indicated that you did have an 25 ongoing relationship with a number of people that were in


1 occupation and that at some point and time it began to 2 break down. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Was -- was this an indication 5 of that, that Mr. Manning would not speak in your 6 presence? Or do you know what that was about? 7 A: I don't know what that was about. 8 Q: If I can refer you to Tab Number 19 9 of the Book of Documents in front of you, sir, there's a 10 general occurrence report. It bears Inquiry Document 11 Number 1002414. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And I appreciate that this document 16 was not filed by you but you can see that on the second 17 page you are indicated as one of the persons involved. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And you've had a chance 20 to review that before coming here today? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 Q: It talks about on the 29th of July at 24 about 1:45 in the p.m. a yellow school bus -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. 2 "Broke into the -- [pardon me] with 3 twenty (20) or so women and children on 4 it, it broke into the built-up areas of 5 CFB Ipperwash and -- " 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: "-- smashed into the doors of a 8 supply building. Then backed into a 9 DND Jeep pushing it fifty (50) feet. 10 The driver was taken into custody by 11 two (2) MP's but then they were 12 overpowered by several other Native 13 people and the driver escaped. 14 Upon arrival of -- of the OPP we set up 15 a containment barrier at the front 16 gates of the camp and waited for 17 further instructions. 18 At 19:22 hours, Carson advised that DND 19 did not want any further intervention 20 at this time. Investigation to 21 continue for the culprit who did the 22 damage to the DND buildings." 23 Now, first of all, did you witness any of 24 those events that -- that are described there? 25 A: No.


1 Q: Did you -- were you involved in the 2 investigation of those events? 3 A: I went to London and showed some 4 photo line-ups to a couple of military people. 5 Q: Now, perhaps I can ask that that be 6 made the next exhibit, that occurrence report. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1170, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1170: Document number 1002414. 10 General Occurrence Report, 11 July 29, 1995. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: Aside from attending at London to 15 provide identification-type information, did you take any 16 steps to identify a person with whom the occupiers would 17 speak? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Take me back through that question 22 again. 23 Q: All right. What steps, if any, did 24 you take to identify anybody within the people who were 25 in occupation now of the built up area, to -- to speak


1 to? 2 A: I think we just inquired at the gate. 3 Q: Okay. Did you have any success in 4 these inquiries? 5 A: No. Other than try to talking to 6 Bert or Bruce, was it? 7 Q: Right. And that's your entry at 8 19:05 hours? "Met with Bruce Manning"? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And you don't know what 11 discussion took place between -- 12 A: They never ever told me, that I'm 13 aware of, I just don't remember him ever telling me what 14 it was about. 15 Q: Okay. There's an entry on July 31st, 16 which is at your page 82 and what we've marked as page 73 17 of Exhibit 1160, at 08:45 hours. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: It describes a meeting that was 20 taking place. Do you have anything further on that? 21 A: No. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I know there was discussions about a


1 meeting that Kettle Point was going to be having at their 2 ball park that was open to other people. I don't -- from 3 this meeting, I don't remember anything about what Bruce 4 and Charlie talked about. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Being discussed. 7 Q: Do you have any idea or was there any 8 intention formulated on the part of the OPP as to what 9 would be done insofar as this occupation of the built up 10 area? 11 A: I don't think they're going to do 12 anything, just trying to set up some communication. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And if I can ask you nextly, then, to 18 turn to your page 83 which is found at page 74 of Exhibit 19 1160. 20 It's your notations of August the 1st of 21 1995. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at 16:30 hours... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: There was a meeting at CFB Ipperwash 3 with Wright, Bouwman and Glenn George. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: What was that about? 6 A: That was discussion, safety issues 7 down around Matheson Drive. We discussed this earlier 8 and I didn't remember who was cutting locks off the gate, 9 well, it was -- the natives were locking the gate to -- 10 'cause there was a fatal accident down that way, and they 11 considered that a safety issue, I would think. 12 And they were locking the gates and MNR 13 was cutting the locks off, 'cause they wanted it open in 14 case they needed to send an ambulance down to the beach 15 or something. 16 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can just go ahead 17 and read your entry at 16:30 hours. 18 A: Okay. 19 "A meeting with -- discussed issues of 20 safety. Glenn agreed to unlocking the 21 gate at Matheson Drive and letting MNR 22 keep the key at MNR building at 23 Ipperwash. Gate opened in morning and 24 locked in the evening. Glenn laying 25 claim to Matheson Drive and Ipperwash


1 Provincial Park saying there's a -- a 2 grave site in the Park. Didn't object 3 to ride checks in the area." 4 Q: Just firstly, with respect to that, 5 you were aware that there was a double fatality as a 6 result of a motor vehicle incident that occurred that 7 very morning? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And that was what the 10 meeting was in relation to? 11 A: Yes, this is the safety concerns 12 there. 13 Q: And this comment that you've just 14 indicated, that Glenn was laying claim to Matheson Drive 15 and Ipperwash Provincial Park, saying there was a grave 16 site in the Park, had you heard this type of claim 17 before? 18 A: I think that was the first I heard of 19 it. 20 Q: First of all, or nextly, can you 21 recall, rather, where the -- the meeting took place? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. And aside from making 24 that notation of the information that Glenn George is 25 telling you, laying the claim and indicating a grave site


1 in the Park, did you do anything with that information? 2 A: I don't recall doing anything with 3 the information. 4 Q: All right. And, sir, there were -- 5 there were visitors, I think, as you've indicated 6 previously, or -- or people, perhaps, from other 7 communities that were involved in the -- in the Camp or 8 were at the Camp during that summer? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you know who any of these people 11 were? You told us already that you ran plates on some of 12 them, do you know where they might have came from and 13 what they were doing there? 14 A: Now, I think -- I think some of them 15 were just coming in to show support or some were just 16 coming in to be nosey. Others were coming just because 17 they were -- had friends inside. 18 Over that summer there was concerns 19 because the -- they did have some outsiders, like the 20 Jewel brothers and Wayne Pine, who had no real reason to 21 be there, that I was aware of. 22 There was talk of warriors going to the 23 area also. 24 Q: An we've heard -- we've heard the 25 name, Cleve Lincoln Jackson?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you know who that was and what 3 that was in relation to? 4 A: Cleve was supposed to have been the 5 bus driver. 6 Q: Okay. And if you can look at your 7 notes on page 87 of Thursday, August the 3rd, 1995? 8 Commissioner, that's at page 78 of P-1160. 9 See your notation at 14:30 hours? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Could you just tell us what that's 12 about? 13 A: "At CFB Ipperwash with Wright and 14 Bouwman. Wright spoke to Glenn George 15 and Les Jewel and informed them of the 16 warrant we hold for Cleve Lincoln 17 Jackson. They said he had left. They 18 said [sorry, it doesn't say that]. 19 They said they had to discuss it with 20 their Elders before they could hand him 21 over. They said they didn't know if he 22 was on the Camp or not." 23 Q: All right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: And just with respect to that 2 individual, was he ever, as -- as it's noted there, 3 handed over? 4 A: I don't think he was ever handed 5 over. He was eventually arrested, but I don't remember 6 the circumstances. 7 Q: All right. You've mentioned the 8 names, sir, Les Jewel and Russ Jewel a couple of times. 9 We heard those name mentioned in this Inquiry some time 10 ago. 11 Now, what can you tell us about them? 12 A: Well, at one (1) point Les Jewel 13 seemed to be calling the shots in there, because Russell 14 -- I've never known him to be in charge. Pine, I didn't 15 know what to make of him because he didn't seem to be 16 controlling anything, but he was there; he was from 17 Michigan. 18 Q: Were these -- I -- I take it these 19 were individuals you were not entirely familiar with? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Okay. And if we look at your 22 notation on page 88 of your notes, August 4th of 1995 you 23 see at 08:45 hours it looks like you're with Detective 24 Sergeant Wright and briefing new personnel? 25 A: Yes. And:


1 "I made a call to Little Current OPP 2 and spoke to Sergeant -- or an acting 3 sergeant Murray up there -- or Murray 4 Haner up there, to see if Les Jewel had 5 been kicked off Sucker Creek Reserve. 6 And PCLV George heard he had been 7 kicked off of there." 8 Do you want me to go on? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: "I then spoke to a Pete DeLure 11 (phonetic) intelligence officer from 12 the intelligence office in Orillia [and 13 I have their phone number]. 14 They planned takeover of Ipperwash 15 Provincial Park [it says 'in' but it 16 should be 'on'] Tuesday after Labour 17 Day. Jewel appears to be calling the 18 shots. They want to replace Glenn 19 George as they feel that he is losing 20 it mentally. 21 They will check [I can't read that 22 word] they will check on Les Jewel and 23 Russ Jewel. Bert Manning just returned 24 from Akwesasne." 25 That's the information from that


1 intelligence officer. 2 Q: All right. And as a result of 3 obtaining that information, what did you do with it? 4 A: I would have passed that on probably 5 to Wright or the intell -- or Don Bell. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: "At 14:10 I was at CFB Ipperwash and 8 they would not turn Jackson over." 9 That's it there. 10 Q: Okay. If I can refer you to Tab 25 11 of the Book of Documents in front of you. There's a 12 handwritten document, it's entitled, "Intelligence Report 13 BCGM Speck," dated the 4th of August 1995. It's Inquiry 14 Document 2004305. 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that's the information that you 18 would have passed along, that you've just advised us of? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: The first entry, in fact, reads, 21 quote: 22 "Info received, takeover of Ipperwash 23 Provincial Park scheduled for Tuesday 24 after Labour Day." 25 End quote.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Could we ask -- I would 3 ask that that be made the next exhibit please? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1171, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1171: Document number 2004305, 7 Intelligence Report, D/C 8 Speck, August 4, 1995 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: And additionally some of the other 12 comments that you've noted in your -- in your notebook 13 that you just read to us, that's also recorded in this 14 document? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. And if you 17 could turn to Tab Number 31 of the same book of 18 documents, it's again an intelligence report. It would 19 appear to be under your hand dated 16th of August 1995. 20 It's Inquiry Document Number 2004318. 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I wonder if you could just read that


1 for us, please? 2 A: If I can make it out. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: The names are blocked out here. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: It just says: 7 "Spoke with on 15 August '95. He had 8 an unknown Native who did not appear to 9 be from this area with him. 10 Would not say who he was or where he 11 was from. Wanted to only -- would only 12 say he was a supporter. 13 Did not like the idea of the water 14 plant being in Ipperwash Park and again 15 said the Provincial Park was taken away 16 from the Natives by the Government. He 17 also said there was daily talk in the 18 camp about closing down 21 Highway. 19 The Pinery Park is also on their 20 agenda. He also said the land between 21 Army Camp Road and Kettle Point was 22 als -- also belonged to them, and the 23 Government only rented it." 24 And then it says: 25 "Vehicle licence is blanked out. Looks


1 like American, and then it's registered 2 to -- 3 In Toronto was camped in Pinery Park 4 and now in Ipperwash Provincial Park. 5 Two (2) female Natives known to Metro 6 Police 51 Division for soliciting and 7 impaired. 8 One stabbed herself while in police 9 custody. Address is Ontario Housing 10 Corporation or housing complex for 11 Natives. 12 Vehicle seen on CFB with the occupants 13 talking to [it's blanked out]. 14 They were scheduled to camp at 15 Ipperwash to 19 August, '95 but [blank] 16 helped them move today, 16 August. It 17 appears these two (2) women were 18 gathering information for the Natives. 19 Info received today that somebody met 20 with thirty (30) warriors this past 21 weekend in his residence on the base. 22 Has claimed the old QM store, which is 23 the first building on the right as you 24 go into the front gate, and [blank] 25 were in attendance.


1 He could get him a -- somebody said he 2 could get him a thousand (1,000) 3 supporters, but I doubt if he can get 4 that many people. 5 [blanked out] is supposed to be going 6 to Cross Village, Michigan this weekend 7 to meet with supporters. 8 I think [blanked out] has connections 9 in that part of Michigan. 10 Somebody was talking to members of 6 11 District ERT and he told them that 12 after Labour Day the Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park would belong to the 14 Natives." 15 Q: And if we turn to your notes, sir, at 16 page 8, I think that this would now be book -- book 9. 17 You'll find that at -- I think it starts at page 97 of -- 18 what we have marked as 97 of -- of Exhibit 1160, 19 Commissioner. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: These are your notations of the 24 information that corresponds to the -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- intelligence report you had 2 handwritten? 3 A: Yeah. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Is there anything within those notes 8 that does not correspond, and perhaps that might be the 9 quickest way to get -- to get to that, rather than have 10 you reading your notations in their entirety. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And one thing that I would ask you to 15 -- to focus on, at your entry at 14:30, which is at page 16 10 of your notes, it's page 99 of P-1160. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I wonder if you could just read that 22 entry, please? 23 A: "ERT team confer with Detective 24 Constable Martin re. latest [I can't 25 make out my writing, that word]


1 investigations around CFB. 2 ERT team personnel Jamie Sterling and 3 partner were talking to Bert Manning, 4 and Manning told them the Natives will 5 own Ipperwash Provincial Park right 6 after Labour Day." 7 Q: And that's the information that 8 you've recorded in your intelligence report at Tab 31? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Perhaps we can ask that that document 11 be made the next exhibit please? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1172, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1172: Document number 2004318, 15 Intelligence Report, D/C 16 Speck, August 16, 1995 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: I'm going to take you back, sir, to 20 your page 80, and this is Saturday, August the 5th of 21 1995. 22 A: Book 8? 23 Q: That's your book 8, sir? You'll find 24 that at page 80 -- 25 A: August 5th?


1 Q: -- of P-1160. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 3 what page was that? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Page 80 of 1160. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 80 of 6 our... 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: And that would be at your page 89. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right? And at 0 -- is that 08:00 or 14 09:00 hours? 15 A: 08:00. 16 Q: All right. Can you just tell us what 17 that entry's about, please? 18 A: "Call back re. CFB Ipperwash 19 authority Detective [it was from -- by 20 Mark Wright anyway] re. gathering 21 intelligence. I spoke to a person who 22 advised Natives on the Base have [it 23 says 'Dager' here but it's 'Drager' 24 (phonetic) is -- is the proper word] 25 self-contained gas masks. They look


1 new and have a tank attached to them, 2 and a gauge on them. Natives have a 3 perimeter set up. Some natives are dug 4 in but are concerned about losing their 5 cover in the fall. Cleve Jackson still 6 on the Base." 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Then I wrote down some licence 9 numbers from people at the Base. 10 Q: All right. What was the -- the 11 relevance of that information about the -- the gas masks? 12 A: Why would I -- I didn't know whether 13 it was stuff the Military had left or they were 14 preparing, thinking we were going to come in with tear 15 gas or something. I didn't know. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: It's just information given to me. 18 Q: And at Tab 26 of the book of 19 documents in front of you, Officer Speck, there is an 20 intelligence report dated August the 5th of 1995. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: It's Inquiry Document 2004306. And 23 you have -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- blanked out:


1 "Advise Natives have Dager self- 2 contained gas masks." 3 Again this is corresponding information. 4 You recorded it in your notes, you prepared an 5 intelligence report, and that intelligence report is then 6 forwarded on? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I wonder if you would just go ahead 9 and -- and look at the balance of that report, and if you 10 could tell us what that's about? 11 And I'd ask you, as well, to focus on the 12 last entry on that intel report? 13 A: "Natives may be using the ten (10) 14 day mourning period to bring in 15 outsiders. [Blank] wants this area for 16 Oneida/Mohawk base for criminal 17 activity." 18 Q: Okay. Can that be made the next 19 exhibit please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1173, Your Honour. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1173: Document number 2004306. 24 Intelligence Report, D/C 25 Speck. August 05, 1995


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 3 Q: And again, sir, do you know what -- 4 what you did with these intelligence reports? I think 5 you'd indicated previously. 6 A: I would have just passed them right 7 on up the line, sir. 8 Q: And do you know what, if anything, 9 was done with that information? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You received additional information 12 with respect to Bruce Manning? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you'll find that at your page 93 15 under the entry of 6th of August 1995? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Can you tell us about 18 that? 19 A: "PC L.B. George was talking to a 20 person from the Watford area last 21 night. [It doesn't say the Watford 22 area in my book but I'm just avoiding 23 the person's name]. He advised he saw 24 Bruce Manning three (3) weeks ago in 25 Watford with some type of handgun;


1 carries it in his pocket." 2 Q: Okay. And if I can ask you to turn 3 to the document at Tab 27. It's either a very short 4 intelligence report or one that is completely redacted 5 but for that entry. 6 It's dated August the 6th of 1995. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Again, that's the corresponding 9 information that you've described in your notebook. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: If that can be made the next exhibit, 12 please, 1174. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1174, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1174: Document number 2004307. 16 Intelligence Report, D/C. 17 Speck, August 06, 1995 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: And sir, at your page 95, you have 21 entries for August the 8th of 1995. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And there's a name there that you had 2 mentioned earlier as being, perhaps, associated with 3 warriors if I'm -- if I recall your evidence, that name 4 being Ed Isaac. 5 Do you see that -- that entry? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 14 A: The information that was received 15 was: 16 "Ed Isaac met with Glenn George on the 17 base, Monday 7th of August. Isaac 18 brought in a pool table. Isaac and 19 Glenn are friends." 20 Do you want me to go on, or... 21 Q: Yes, please. 22 A: Right. 23 "There's a bunch coming in this weekend 24 from Oneida and Muncey. They are 25 calling it a youth conference. Glenn


1 has a handgun there that belonged to 2 his father but he doesn't carry it. 3 Careful if you call somebody as they 4 may have caller identification. 5 He didn't know about anybody being dug 6 in." 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: All right. The elder and youth 11 conference that was planned on the base for 19 -- for 12 August of 1995, did you have any occasion to look into 13 that? 14 A: Yeah, I did and from the information 15 I gathered that it shouldn't be a concern, because 16 they've had them in the past. 17 Q: And if you could look at your -- at 18 the exhibit book, the -- pardon me, the document brief, 19 under Tab 28, there's an intelligence report in your 20 handwriting again, dated August the 8th of 1995. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And the first entry in that 23 speaks to this conference, the youth conference. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: The second one is an entry with


1 respect to the -- the handgun that you've just described. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: There's a further entry about a gold 4 cross from the chapel. 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And lastly the -- a notation about a 10 meeting on August the 7th that took place on the Base and 11 that the person's name, who is redacted, had brought in a 12 pool table. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: That's just the corresponding 15 information that you've described? 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I wonder if we can mark that as the 21 next exhibit, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1175, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1175: Document number 2004310. 25 Intelligence Report, D/C.


1 Speck. August 08, 1995 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: And lastly, just with respect again 5 to this youth conference at Tab number 29, there is an 6 intelligence report dated August 9th of '95, again in 7 your handwriting? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It says that: 10 "Information was received from Captain 11 [it's blanked out] that he was talking 12 to [again the names are redacted]. 13 Told him not to be alarmed but there 14 would be two hundred (200) young men 15 and elders coming in on Friday from 16 Oneida, Muncey and the United States. 17 They're having a ceremonial breakfast 18 on Oneida Friday morning and are coming 19 to the Camp. 20 [blank] gave similar information on 21 August -- on 8 August '95 and called it 22 a youth conference." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "Inspector Carson advised." 25 Again, that's the same information that


1 was passed along. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: The next entry I'm also interested 4 in, Officer. Perhaps you can just tell us about that? 5 A: "Somebody phoned looking for a phone 6 number for somebody at the Base. He 7 advised Kettle Point Band Council met 8 today and there's a strong movement 9 afoot to go over to the Camp to remove 10 some undesirables starting with 11 [blanked out]. And then somebody's 12 leaving on Monday the 14th of August, 13 '95, and as far as he knows he would 14 not be coming back." 15 Q: All right. And if we look at your 16 notes it is your page 100 -- pardon me, maybe we should 17 start at the bottom of 99. You'll find that at our page 18 88, Commissioner of P-1160. 19 At the very bottom at 11:00 hours you have 20 a notation there that you met with Captain -- 21 A: Doug Smith. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: "He was talking to Les Jewel and told 24 him not to be alarmed but there were 25 two hundred (200) young men and Elders


1 coming into the Camp on Friday from 2 Oneida and Muncey and the United 3 States. 4 They were -- they're having a 5 ceremonial breakfast at Oneida and then 6 coming to Ipperwash. 7 Smith leaving August 14 -- 14 of August 8 '95 and as far as he knows will not be 9 back." 10 Q: Just on that note, do you know 11 whether or not Captain Smith did in fact come back? 12 A: I can't recall whether I saw him back 13 after that or not. 14 Q: All right. The entry at -- at 17:00 15 hours, just going further down on that page. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You have a call there from one Scott 18 Ewart. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And it was he who gave 21 you the information about the Kettle Point Band having a 22 meeting to talk about going over and kicking out some 23 undesirables. 24 A: Yes. It was Glenn's phone number 25 he's looking for.


1 Q: And that's the information that 2 you've recorded in the document at Tab 29 being the intel 3 report of August 9 '95? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Can we have that as the next exhibit 6 please? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1176, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1176. Document number 2004312, 10 Intelligence Report, D/C 11 Speck. August 09, 1995 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: Sir, on August the 9th of 1995, you 15 had information from -- regarding a civilian who was 16 boating near the military beach. You have a recording of 17 that at page 97 of your notes. It starts I think at the 18 bottom of page 96. 19 And it would appear that this is 20 information that you had received from Staff Sergeant 21 Charlie Bouwman. 22 A: Yes. 23 "Charlie was in a Port Franks police 24 meeting last night and was talking to a 25 male who advised him that another male


1 was boating off of DND beach a week 2 ago. May have been on DND beach when a 3 Native told him to leave he refused and 4 the Native pointed a gun at him." 5 Q: Did you have any role in terms of 6 investigating that -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- that matter? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Perhaps I should also point out, 11 Commissioner, you'll notice that Officer Speck has 12 referred to -- rather than the names that are indicated 13 in his notes, he's indicated simply a male or other non- 14 identifying information. 15 And that's simply because these are 16 individuals that have not been called as witnesses nor do 17 we have any intention to call them. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well they're 19 the names that are redacted, are they, in the -- 20 MR. DONALD WORME: In the intelligence 21 reports. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- copies of 23 exhibits that you filed? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: At Tab 30, Officer, there's an 3 intelligence report dated August 14th, of '95. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it simply indicates that members 10 of Kettle Point, the names are redacted, that they were 11 preparing to deliver a letter to -- perhaps I should just 12 read that: 13 "Have -- were to deliver a letter of 14 Stoney Point to have [blank] and other 15 known persons removed from Stoney Point 16 by 15 or 16 August/'95 or they would 17 take action to remove them." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's information that you've 20 similarly recorded in your notes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Let me just have one (1) 23 -- one (1) moment please? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Sorry, Commissioner, if I can just 2 have a moment's indulgence? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I'm going to take you through a 7 series of other incidents, sir, some of which are 8 recorded in your notes and some of which I -- I'm not 9 sure are. 10 Perhaps if I can refer you firstly to -- 11 under August the 13th of 1995 -- pardon me, August the 12 14th -- 13th of 1995, your page 7, I think that is book-- 13 A: 9? 14 Q: -- let me find the book number. Book 15 9, Thank you. 16 And if you can indicate at the top of page 17 7, I wonder if you can just go ahead and tell us what 18 that 's about? The notation begins, Also a -- is that, 19 "Councillor"? This is page 97 -- page 96 rather of P- 20 1160. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you see that entry, "Has seen a 25 native walking..."


1 A: Is this the one -- what time are you 2 at on that page? 3 Q: It's just before the entry of 15:00 4 hours. Why don't you start at your entry at 12:00 hours 5 on Sunday, August 13, '95 it's your page 6? 6 A: Okay. 7 "12:00 call-back to talk to a male. 8 Charlie Bouwman called me back. He saw 9 five (5) iron worker natives at 10 McPherson's this morning. Bill Antone 11 from Oneida [he gave me a couple of 12 other names I don't know whether you 13 want them]. Also saw a Chev pickup 14 with licence number. Came out from 15 Richmond Park in Port Franks at 6:00 16 a.m. this morning. Vehicle had three 17 (3) male and one (1) female native in 18 it. It was still driving around Port 19 Franks at 6:50 a.m. Les Jewel may be 20 wanted in New York State. Also a 21 councillor has been on the -- no, also 22 a Cornelius has been on the base as 23 well. Has seen a native walking on the 24 base inside of Outer Drive carrying an 25 Uzi automatic slung over his shoulder."


1 Then I got a twenty-eight (28) on the 2 vehicle plate, found out who rented the vehicle. 3 Q: And just with respect to that 4 information, a person carrying an Uzi automatic slung 5 over his shoulder inside the army base, I mean, that is 6 significant information. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You don't have an intelligence report 9 that corresponds -- 10 A: I don't know what I did with that. 11 Q: Okay. You do have an intelligence 12 report that I've taken you to of August the 14th of 1995. 13 I neglected to make that an exhibit. Perhaps I'd ask 14 that that be done now. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1177, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1177: Document number 2004317. 18 Intelligence Report, D/C. 19 Speck, August 14, 1995 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: That's the document at Tab 30. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Nextly, sir, on your page 8 under the 2 date August 15th, Tuesday, 1995 -- 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: That's the information re the two (2) 8 ladies camping. 9 Q: Frankly, I'm more interested in the 10 information that you'd received from Glenn George, which 11 is noted at the middle of the next page at 10:00 hours. 12 A: "10:00 hours at CFB Ipperwash with 13 Staff Sergeant Bouwman to speak with 14 Glenn George about the way the natives 15 were driving on Matheson Drive and 16 shining lights on the campers. 17 Glenn started talking and it appears 18 they don't like the idea of the water 19 control for CFB is in Ipperwash Park. 20 It appears both Ipperwash and Pinery 21 Park are both high on their agenda to 22 control. He also spoke of the land 23 between Army Camp Road and Kettle Point 24 belonging to them, as it was also 25 leased by the military.


1 He also said it is the daily talk on 2 Stoney Point that they should close off 3 21 Highway." 4 Q: Okay. And nextly, sir, at page -- 5 all right, 11 of your notebook, this is your notebook 6 number 9. 7 I think we may have already reviewed this 8 in the intel report, at 08:45 hours, you have information 9 from Vince George? 10 A: Yes. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Information he got: 15 "Thirty (30) warriors met with Glenn 16 George this past weekend in the old QM 17 stores on the base where Glenn has 18 taken up residence. 19 I saw Glenn come out of that 20 building on 15 August '95 with an 21 unknown, out of town native who he 22 wouldn't identify. 23 Is the first building on the right when 24 you enter the camp through the front 25 gate.


1 Buck Doxtator and Ed Isaac were there. 2 Ed Isaac told Glenn he could get him a 3 thousand (1,000) supporters. 4 There's a warrior bulletin out that 5 somebody's going to try and get us. 6 There is to be a meeting at Cross 7 Village this weekend with Glenn and 8 unknown supporters." 9 Q: All right, and that is the 10 information that you already confirmed for us in the 11 exhibit, or the document the -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- intel report that's now been made 14 an -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- exhibit. Thank you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Excuse me just one second. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And sir, on August the 17th, it's at 25 your notebook at page 13, your entry of August 17th.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: At 08:45 hours. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell us about that please? 5 A: "I was with P/C Martin. Proceeded to 6 Ipperwash re Inspector Linton received 7 information Natives were going to close 8 off 21 Highway. 9 It was all quiet and the event didn't 10 happen." 11 Q: And -- and just as there was some 12 suggestion that that would happen on July the 1st, there 13 was further information that this would happen and it 14 simply never did happen? 15 A: Didn't happen, no. 16 Q: All right. I've been provided with a 17 -- with a copy of a document from Mr. Roland. It is 18 Inquiry Document 7000366 a confidential letter to CF 19 Detachment London, Wolsley Barracks. It's dated 17 1600 20 August, '95, Operation Maple Situation, our sit-rep. 21 It's one (1) of three (3) pages but we 22 only have the first page as well as a fax cover sheet. 23 I'm going to put this to the witness and ask him if he 24 recognizes that document and if he could tell us what it 25 is about.


1 And I'm interested particularly, Officer 2 Speck, in that entry under Operation Number 1 at Sub (b), 3 Subsection 2. And it reads -- perhaps I should just read 4 the -- the whole thing. 5 "Operation points are as follows. 6 b) MWO Taylor [I take it that's Master 7 Warrant Officer Taylor] talked to the 8 Forest OPP, Detective George Speck 9 while in the Ipperwash area today. 10 The following are the points of 11 interest discussed. 12 1) Glenn George showed up for his 13 initial court date on July 24th but 14 failed to show for a subsequent date, 15 date unknown. 16 2) The OPP reported that Glenn George 17 and Les Jewels are in the US at a 18 meeting. Purpose unknown. And -- 19 3) The OPP are concerned about the 20 possible occupation of Ipperwash 21 Provincial Park by elements of the 22 SPG." 23 I take it SPG is Stoney Point Group? 24 A: I would assume that myself. 25 Q: Do you -- do you recall, first of


1 all, this meeting with Master Warrant Officer Taylor? 2 A: Not specifically. It very well could 3 have happened. 4 Q: Okay. And I take it you weren't 5 party to this -- this document. You haven't seen it 6 before? 7 A: No. 8 Q: I understand nextly, Officer Speck 9 that you attended at the Army Base on August the 31st of 10 1995 and you'll see that you have an entry at page 24 of 11 your notebook. That will be found at page 107, 12 Commissioner of P-1160. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And at 10:00 hours -- pardon me, at 15 10:45 hours, perhaps you can just refer to that and tell 16 us what happened. 17 A: "10:45 I was at CFB Ipperwash. I 18 spoke to a woman leaving the Camp. I 19 asked her if Glenn George was there 20 because I had a warrant for him. She 21 said she thought he was in the Camp but 22 she was late and that she would tell 23 him when she came back. 24 10:00 [I don't know if this time is 25 correct] but a male who identified


1 himself as Russell Jewel came to the 2 gate and I asked him if Glenn was there 3 and told him we had a warrant for 4 Glenn and I wanted to know if he would 5 come out and give himself up to me. 6 Jewel said Glenn wasn't there and he 7 would tell him when he comes back." 8 Q: All right. And, sir, on the 9 following day, on the first of September, your notation 10 is there at page 25, Friday, September 1 of 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You'd attended a -- a meeting, and 13 would you just tell us about that meeting; where it took 14 place, what it was in respect to? 15 A: It was a meeting in London and it was 16 in respect to -- they were making plans what to do if the 17 Natives took over the Provincial Park. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: They discussed what they would do at 20 that. 21 Q: And if you can refer to Tab 34 22 there's a document there, some seven (7) pages -- seven 23 (7) pages in length? It's a meeting that is recorded at 24 September 1st, 1995 -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- Number 2 District Headquarters 2 London, Ontario, commencing at 9:00 a.m., and you are 3 identified as Detective -- as being in attendance. 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And it would appear to 7 contemplate a number of different scenarios, I think, as 8 you were just telling us. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: In the event of a takeover of the 11 Park. And I take it that this was on the information 12 that you had and had passed along, that the Park would be 13 taken over following the Labour Day weekend? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. All right. You'll note 16 at page 3, sir, the middle of page 3, you see where it 17 says, "Primary Investigation?" 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: "Primary Investigation. Detective 20 Sergeant Richardson and file 21 coordinator. He is responsible for all 22 criminal investigation that occurs as 23 well as preparing the paperwork and 24 charges to go along with that. As a 25 primary investigator he will come


1 through the scene investigator Speck? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do we take from that, sir, that your 4 role had changed? I take it that you were in a -- in an 5 intelligence gathering function before? 6 And is this a change in that role to a -- 7 A: I -- 8 Q: -- scene investigator? 9 A: I hesitated to call myself an 10 intelligence officer because I never was -- 11 Q: All right. 12 A: -- classified as an intelligence 13 officer. I was always an investigator and when 14 information came to me I passed it along to the 15 intelligence people. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: My job in there was still as an 18 investigator in this -- when this -- in this scenario. 19 Q: You were aware that there were actual 20 intelligence operators or officers, rather, that were 21 operating within the Park? 22 A: Yes, there were officers that were 23 designated as intelligence officers. 24 Q: Do you know who those were? 25 A: I know some of them.


1 Q: And can you tell us who they were? 2 A: Mark Dew, Chris Martin, Marg Eve, and 3 I don't remember all who was there; they changed up. 4 They were in -- there were, like, in there as campers. 5 Q: Okay. And in general terms the 6 scenarios that were contemplated at this meeting, can you 7 tell us anything about that today? 8 A: About what, sir? 9 Q: About the -- the plan that was 10 contemplated. 11 A: Well, it had several scenarios to it, 12 I mean there was one (1) scenario that involved thinking 13 that the women and children might be put out in front. 14 And we were going to have police women and a police 15 officer and a male officer partner together to look after 16 these people along with CAS around. 17 We were going to be taking them to the 18 staging areas like -- like here, this was designated as 19 one, to process them. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: There were contingencies for worst 22 case scenario of gunshots. There were several different 23 contingencies set up there. 24 Q: And what can you recall about that? 25 A: I'd have to read this document, sir.


1 All I know is I was scheduled as an investigator for any 2 crimes that might happen or any charges to be laid. 3 Q: All right. You -- can you recall for 4 us, without looking at the actual document, whether there 5 was any plan to go into the Park, or whether the plan was 6 to stay out of the Park? Can you -- can you tell us at 7 all? 8 A: I think the plan was to stay outside 9 the Park and prevent people from going in. I'd have to 10 read the document, I can't remember that far back. 11 Q: Subsequent to that meeting, sir, on - 12 - on the 2nd of September you had received from -- some 13 information from the MNR employee Don Matheson? 14 A: On the 2nd of September? 15 Q: Yes. And if you look at your notes 16 at page 26 you have entries under Saturday, 2nd September 17 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And see at 12:30 hours just a few 20 lines down? 21 Q: "Call-back assist re. logistics for 22 CFB Ipperwash and Provincial Park 23 takeover. Staff Sergeant Bouwman and I 24 met with Don Matheson who advised last 25 Thursday at about 12:30 a.m. two (2) of


1 the MNR officers were talking to a 2 party who told them he was one (1) of 3 the good warriors, but there were bad 4 one's on the loose and they had AK- 5 47's, 9 millimetre handguns and rocket 6 or grenade launchers. Bouwman advises 7 Inspector Carson. 8 And I also spoke to campers, Gas, Brian 9 Gas (phonetic) would have been another 10 camper, intelligence officer." 11 Q: All right. And what did you make of 12 the information? What did you do with that information 13 regarding -- 14 A: Well Charlie passed it on to the 15 Inspector. I doubted the -- the parts for the grenade 16 launchers and the rockets; the AK-47's and the "9 17 millers" would not have surprised me. 18 Q: And it wouldn't surprise you, why? 19 A: Well I've heard weapon fire in there. 20 You know, it just wouldn't have surprised me. 21 Q: Sir, I'm going to take you to the -- 22 to the actual occupation of the Park, but perhaps before 23 we get there I just want to ask you again about the claim 24 of a burial park -- pardon me a burial ground within the 25 Park.


1 Do you recall when would be the first time 2 that you would have heard that? 3 A: When Glenn told me. 4 Q: All right. You've told us about 5 having ongoing friendships, relationships with, among 6 others, Robert or Knobby George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You mentioned Vern and Earl 9 Bressette? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And perhaps you had friendships or 12 associations with others in the community? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Did any of them mention the 15 possibility or the prospect or -- or the fact that there 16 was burial park -- ground within the boundaries of 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 18 A: Not at the Park, no. I remember 19 conversations about -- in the Army Camp, but not the 20 Park. 21 Q: All right. Commissioner, I wonder if 22 we might take the afternoon break at this point, it's 23 probably as good a time as any? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 We'll take a break now.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 2:35 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 2:59 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Can I take you, sir, to your notebook 17 for the entries of 4th of September 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You'll find that at your book 9, I 20 believe it's your page 26. Commissioner, that is found 21 at page -- what we've marked as page 110 of Exhibit 1160. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 110. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: I believe, officer, that your entries


1 commence at 19:30 hours and perhaps I would ask you 2 simply to take it from there and tell us what happened -- 3 A: When I -- 4 Q: -- as you recorded? 5 A: "19:30 hours, Monday the 4th of 6 September '95. Called back by Sergeant 7 Korosec re. Natives have taken over 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 9 I notified Detective Sergeant Wright 10 and Les Kobayashi of the MNR. 11 Arrived at Ipperwash Provincial Park at 12 approximately 20:30 hours where I spoke 13 to Sergeant Korosec and Les Kobayashi. 14 And it was decided we would give the 15 occupying Natives notice under the 16 Trespass to Property Act at 22:00 hours 17 when the Park officially closed. 18 There are Natives driving around in 19 vehicles and on ATVs, as well as 20 milling around and a group sitting by a 21 fire. 22 Some of them started throwing fireworks 23 at us. 24 At approximately 21:25 hours Judas 25 Roderick Abraham George, DOB 28 August,


1 '55, came over to the area where we 2 were with our cruisers. He was yelling 3 and demanding to see the head OPP man. 4 He yelled, 'I told you twice to get the 5 fuck out of here, and then he struck 6 the back of cruiser 1563, license 7 041VZZO, denting the trunk and smashing 8 out the rear windshield with a stick 9 that he was carrying. 10 He yelled again, Get the fuck out of 11 here. You've got fifteen (15) minutes. 12 He continued swearing and telling us to 13 get out. He kept counting down the 14 minutes. 15 Sergeant Korosec told us to pull out. 16 I got in my cruiser and Glenn George 17 came over with Judas and asked me about 18 the warrant we had. 19 I told him it was for failing to appear 20 in court on the charges I laid. And he 21 said I told him I wasn't proceeding 22 with them. 23 I said I never said that and what I 24 told him was that I wasn't laying a 25 breach charge.


1 They told me the Elders have a warrant 2 for me and they were going to lock me 3 up in their jail. Judas then started 4 yelling at me to get the fuck out. I 5 left the area and returned to Forest. 6 At 10:28 on license 041VZZO, 1994 Chev 7 Caprice, 4 door white, Her Majesty the 8 Queen in the Right of the Province of 9 Ontario, Ministry of Solicitor General 10 and Correction Services. 11 Operator is OPP 777 Memorial Ave., 12 Oakville, Ontario." 13 Q: Orillia, Ontario? 14 A: Orillia. What did I say? 15 Q: You may have said Orillia. I thought 16 I heard Oakville, I'm sorry. 17 A: I may have said -- it was Orillia. 18 And then it's got the postal code. 19 "21:45 --" 20 Q: Let me just stop you there, if I may, 21 Officer, and just take you back to the first part of -- 22 of that entry. And the time at that point is 19:30 23 hours, being 7:30 in the p.m. on the 4th of September? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you get a call from -- from


1 Sergeant Korosec. You are, as we've already established, 2 in the capacity of -- or in the capacity as investigative 3 officer or -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'm sorry, what was the title that 6 you were operating with? 7 A: Just investigator. 8 Q: All right. And I -- I take it that 9 Officer Korosec -- Sergeant Korosec and other officers 10 would have understood that you were there to handle any 11 occurrences? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And did you know that that, in 14 fact, was part of their knowledge? Do you know if, in 15 fact, that that was -- 16 A: I believe they were at that same 17 meeting I was. 18 Q: Okay. You're familiar with the 19 document called Operation Maple? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you tell us whether or not 22 that you were described in that as being the person -- 23 being the go to guy, if I can put it that way? 24 A: I can't tell you. 25 Q: All right. Project Maple, I should


1 say. I stand corrected. 2 It took you approximately an hour to 3 arrive at the Park. Do you know where you would have 4 came from when you received this call from Sergeant 5 Korosec? 6 A: Home. Home, which is in Forest. Why 7 it took me that long, I don't know. Probably I had to 8 round up Mark Wright and Kobayashi. I would have 9 notified them by phone though. 10 Q: Okay. And do you know whether, in 11 fact, you did that? You have a notation there with 12 respect to notifying Detective Sergeant Wright. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Les Kobayashi. 15 A: Yes. Where they were when I notified 16 them, I don't know. 17 Q: When you arrive at the Park, do you 18 have independent recollection of, first of all, whether 19 there were any civilians, that is campers, in the Park? 20 A: Yes, there were. 21 Q: Okay. Did you have any role with 22 respect to dealing with those folks? 23 A: I didn't myself. I know they were 24 moved out by the camp staff. 25 Q: And by the "camp staff," are you


1 talking about MNR staff? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall whether or not any of 4 the undercover operators or -- or people that you 5 described that were acting in an undercover op. capacity, 6 whether they were in the Park when you attended there? 7 A: I don't know. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you know where the people that 12 were coming into the camp to occ -- the Park, rather, to 13 occupy the Park, do you know where they were coming from? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Do you know how they were gaining 18 access to the Park? 19 A: Well, some would be coming in on foot 20 off of -- from the army camp, off -- over Matheson Drive. 21 I don't know whether they punched a hole in the fence or 22 not, to drive in. 23 Q: To your knowledge, was there a gate 24 at that -- at that end of the Park? 25 A: I know there's a gate. Whether or


1 not that was opened, I don't know. 2 Q: You mention -- well, let me just take 3 you to your note, then, at page -- is that 31, second 4 page? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It starts at "Native under the 7 Trespass to Property Act." 8 So the decision was made, as between 9 Sergeant Korosec and Mr. Kobayashi, that notice would be 10 served at 22:00 hours, that's at 10:00 p.m. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: The Park would be closed at that 13 point in time and notice would be served. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I see that there is, in the 16 margin of your notes, the number 64369. 17 A: That has to be an occurrence number 18 of the Park. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. Again, you're 20 -- just to repeat your -- your entry. 21 "Natives were driving around in 22 vehicles and on ATVs as well as milling 23 around." 24 A: There was a bonfire in there. I 25 believe it was up by the store.


1 Q: I'm sorry, by the...? 2 A: The Park store. 3 Q: Do you have an estimate as to how 4 many people were driving around in -- 5 A: I -- 6 Q: -- vehicles -- 7 A: I can't tell you -- 8 Q: -- milling around? 9 A: -- people were milling around all 10 over the place. It was pretty chaotic in there. 11 Q: Okay. Would you say thirty (30)? 12 A: I'm -- I'd be guessing, sir, and I'm 13 not going to guess. 14 Q: Oh, okay. I'm sorry, I -- 15 A: I just said it was chaotic in there. 16 Q: All right. In terms of the ages, 17 whether they were -- whether they were young people, 18 adults? 19 A: There were young people and there 20 were adults. 21 Q: Males or females? 22 A: Both. 23 Q: Okay. Your note says: 24 "Some of them started throwing 25 fireworks at us."


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yeah. What -- 3 A: They were -- 4 Q: -- can you tell us -- 5 A: -- flares. 6 Q: -- about that? 7 A: There were flares, because I remember 8 turning to one (1) group and telling them to -- to cut it 9 out before somebody got hurt with them. 10 And I heard later on that Parks had to 11 duck from one of them, from being struck. 12 Q: Okay. And we'll come to that in a 13 bit -- 14 A: Yeah, sure. 15 Q: That was part of the investigation -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- that you were obliged to 18 undertake. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: You arrive at the Park at about 20:30 25 hours, and around 21:25 hours -- so you were there for


1 almost an hour, correct, before Judas comes up, or 2 Roderick George? 3 A: Yeah, we were there for a while 4 before Roderick came up. 5 Q: And in that -- in that period of 6 time, as you've described as "a while", other than people 7 milling about and these flares were being thrown at you, 8 was there any other -- 9 A: They're just -- you know, yelling 10 going on. There's no -- other than the flares, there was 11 nothing close to violence from anybody. 12 Q: And that's what I was going to ask 13 you, thank you. 14 Did you see whether or not these people 15 were carrying anything, by way of -- by way of weapons? 16 A: I have no recollection of it. The 17 only one I saw with anything was Judas. 18 Q: All right. And perhaps I should ask: 19 With respect to weapons, did you see anything such as 20 firearms, first of all? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And then the only person you say that 23 had anything was -- was Judas, that is Roderick George? 24 A: He's the only one I recall. 25 Q: Thank you. With respect to Judas'


1 demeanour, did you make any assessment as to, first of 2 all, whether or not he had been drinking or was under the 3 influence of anything? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Did you get close enough to 6 him to be able to make such assessment? 7 A: I couldn't tell whether he was 8 drinking or not. He appeared angry, very angry. Whether 9 or not he was drinking, I can't tell you. 10 Q: You know -- you would have known him 11 well enough to be able to make that determination -- 12 A: I knew who he was and -- 13 Q: -- would that be fair? 14 A: -- I couldn't tell you if he was 15 drinking or not. 16 Q: Do you know how long he would have 17 been yelling and demanding to see the head OPP man and 18 saying, I told you twice to get the fuck out before he 19 smashes the window? Do you know how long that went on 20 before the -- the window was struck? 21 A: Oh, that was struck right when he got 22 there. 23 Q: And can you describe the -- the 24 instrument that he used, you described it as a stick? 25 A: I'd describe it as a -- like a --


1 like a walking stick; that's how I would describe it. I 2 mean it's -- it's like a staff. I made the same type of 3 thing for my kids when they were in Scouts. It's a 4 walking staff about that big around. 5 Q: You were indicating two (2) or three 6 (3) inches would that be fair? 7 A: Well, I don't -- I can't tell you the 8 exact size of it but it was a fair size. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I mean it wasn't a huge branch or 11 anything. 12 Q: And did he brandish it at anybody in 13 particular or -- or -- 14 A: No, he was using it to make a point. 15 Q: All right. And -- and you've 16 indicated in your notes and you've repeated that for us 17 that he began counting down the minutes? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Sergeant Korosec then gives the order 20 to pull out? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you know whether that was his 23 decision, whether that decision came from elsewhere? Do 24 you have any knowledge about that? 25 A: I know he was in radio contact with


1 the Command Post. I would assume he's relaying -- I'm 2 only assuming he'd be relaying information back and forth 3 and the order would have been given to fall back. 4 Q: You say -- when you say you're 5 assuming that, you didn't hear anything -- 6 A: I -- 7 Q: -- over the radio? 8 A: No, I can't recall hearing anything 9 over the radio. I know we were told by Stan to pull out. 10 Q: And you would have been at your car 11 I'm assuming because at that point in time Glenn George 12 comes to your vehicle and -- 13 A: I got into my car and I -- I was in 14 the driver's seat when him and Rose came over. Rose -- I 15 was talking to Rose too, Rose Manning, and then Glenn 16 came up. 17 Q: He comes over to the -- to your 18 vehicle? 19 A: To the car. 20 Q: And you're in the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. In terms of his demeanour 23 can you tell us anything about -- about that. First of 24 all, whether or not you made any assessment as to -- as 25 to whether or not he was under the influence of anything?


1 A: No. 2 Q: No, you didn't or no -- 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: All right. Okay. In terms of his 5 inquiry with you about the warrants I take it this is the 6 warrants that you would have told us about earlier that 7 you had attended at the Army Base, you spoke to Russ 8 Jewel I think and -- and others inquiring about -- of the 9 whereabouts of Glenn George in relation to warrants? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And I'm not sure I understood that he 12 was -- you tell him that he -- you have a warrant for 13 fail to appear. 14 "And he -- I laid -- and he said, I 15 told him I wasn't proceeding with 16 them." 17 I -- 18 A: That was obviously a mis- 19 communication between Glenn and I about -- he was on a 20 condition not to be somewhere or do something and he'd 21 breached that condition. And I said I wasn't going to 22 charge him for breaching that condition and he thought I 23 said I wasn't going to be charging him for the fail to 24 appear, I think. 25 Q: All right.


1 A: But you know the -- the court's 2 ordered the fail to appear warrant -- 3 Q: But you were exercising your 4 discretion in favour of not laying an additional breach 5 charge? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And he tells you that the 8 Elders have a warrant for you, that they're going to lock 9 you up. What -- what did you make of that, Officer? 10 A: I didn't make much of it, it's just 11 bravado, I thought, although they did have a jail at 12 their disposal on the Base. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Okay. At that point in time your -- 17 your notes indicate that -- that Judas then turns his 18 attention to you, is it? I'm just looking again at the 19 bottom of page 32, top of page 33. 20 A: "Jewels then started yelling at me to 21 get the fuck out." 22 Yes. 23 Q: If I can ask you to turn to Tab 32, 24 Officer. There's the occurrence report. Do you see your 25 name at the bottom as one of the persons involved?


1 It looks like the date of this occurrence 2 is 22nd of August 1995 regarding an incident from the 3 17th of August. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: It's a fail to appear? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: It's fail to appear in court. 9 Q: Right. If you can just take a moment 10 and take a look at that, is that the -- the matter in 11 which the warrant was issued that you would have spoken 12 to -- to Glenn about, that he was enquiring of you about? 13 A: Yes, it would be. 14 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 15 next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1178, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1178: Document number 2004319. 19 General Occurrence Report- 20 Bail violation, fail to 21 appear, August 17, 1995 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: And perhaps just before we move on, 25 Officer, if I can have you turn to Tab 38. There's a


1 further occurrence report. You were the complainant in 2 this. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: It's a report that's filed by 5 Vandenberg J. -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- 4th of September. An incident 8 from the 4th of September '95 at 21:25 hours. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the details -- the incident that 11 you've just described for us, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And you'll see at the -- the 14 last entry on that, that a warrant to arrest for George 15 was obtained on the 5th of September and is on file and 16 that George entered on CPIC as wanted. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that is in relation to the 19 incident you've just described? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: If you can look -- turn to the -- to 22 the next page of that particular document, it bears the 23 same inquiry document 2005502. You'll see the front 24 number is consecutive. The front number on it and that 25 is 2800550, the preceding page is 2805549.


1 And I'll suggest to you that that is -- 2 that that particular page is there in error. 3 A: This page is here in error, does not 4 have anything to do with this incident. 5 Q: Okay. It has something to do about 6 another incident and we'll hear something about -- 7 perhaps not from you but... 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. And if we go to the third 10 page of that document, it says: 11 "Persons involved, Roderick George 12 [continued from last page] charge laid 13 04 September '95, c.c.c. 430(3)." 14 A: Yes. That is -- that is the page 2 15 to the first page in that section. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. And that can 17 be marked as the next exhibit please. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1179, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 20 marking it the way it is with the improper page too? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: We can mark it the way 22 it is with the witness' explanation as to... 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you say 24 1179? 25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.


1 MR. DONALD WORME: And the record will 2 have the witness' explanation, Commissioner, with respect 3 to that particular error. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1179: Document number 2005502. 6 General Occurrence Report Re: 7 Damage to Cruiser (D/C Speck 8 is the Complainant) September 9 04, 1995 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: And if you turn to the next tab, 13 Officer, at Tab 39 -- 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I'm sorry -- not that document. I 18 think we don't -- I think we don't have an information 19 for that. I thought we did. 20 And perhaps if I can ask you nextly to 21 turn to Tab number 56. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: That is Inquiry document 2001175. It 2 is a will say that would appear to be a will say from 3 yourself. It is undated. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you've had a chance to review 6 that -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- before testifying here today? 9 A: We don't normally date will says when 10 we make them out. 11 Q: I see. So nothing should be taken 12 from the fact that that has no date, is -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- what you're telling me? And it 15 essentially, again, confirms the information that you've 16 described. 17 You were a twenty-eight (28) year officer 18 at that point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you detail the events of Monday, 21 September the 4th of '95 when you were called to work 22 regarding the occupation of the Provincial Park. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your attendance at the Park at 25 8:30 p.m. and discussion with Sergeant Korosec.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: On the second page of that document, 4 there are a number of individuals and I would ask that -- 5 when this is made an exhibit, that the names of all of 6 those individuals identified, with the exception of the 7 second individual being Clayton Morris George, be 8 redacted. 9 So that is your -- your document -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- Officer? And perhaps we can make 12 that the next exhibit, please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1180, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1180. Document number 2001175. 16 Will Say of George Speck 17 (undated). 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: And again, for the purposes of the 21 record, if those names can be redacted with the exception 22 of Clayton George. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: In terms of numbers of OPP officers 2 or OPP cruisers, do you have any estimation for us, or a 3 number of that? 4 A: I can't remember how many were there. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 9 just turn back then to your notes at page 33. There's an 10 entry at 21:45 hours, and just continue from there. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: At which time, sir? 15 Q: 21:45 hours -- 16 A: I return -- 17 Q: -- middle of the page. 18 A: I returned to Forest at that time and 19 I remained at Forest 'til 02:30. 20 Q: During that period of time -- let me 21 just take you back: 22 "Returned to Forest auth. Sergeant 23 Korosec" 24 Can you just tell us what that means. 25 A: Returned to Forest authority.


1 Sergeant Korosec, who had been speaking to Inspector 2 Carson, remained at Forest. 3 And then 02:30 off duty. 4 Q: And I think, as you've -- as you've 5 indicated to -- to us in other conversations, Sergeant 6 Korosec was the officer in charge and it would have been 7 under his authority, and that's what that refers to, that 8 you would have returned -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And in that intervening 11 period from 21:49 to 02:30 when you went off duty, do you 12 have any recollection as to what took place, what you 13 would have done? 14 A: I may have been writing out -- see, 15 some of these occurrence reports we wrote out for 16 somebody else to type on the computer later. 17 The writing out -- this was the transition 18 period where we just started this OMPAC. And the old way 19 was to write out the reports that -- well, you have 20 copies in these books, but that was the way we did it. 21 I probably would have been writing out 22 some of the occurrence and making notes. 23 Q: And the acronym OMPAC that you've 24 just referred to, that refers to Ontario Municipal Police 25 Automatic --


1 A: Yeah. Centre. 2 Q: Automated Centre. All right. Is 3 that system still in existence? 4 A: We don't use it any more. Any OMPAC 5 occurrences were all archived and we can pick them up 6 through our new system. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Sir, at Tab 35, and this an -- an 12 excerpt of the scribe notes which have been marked as P- 13 426 in these proceedings, would you go into the second 14 page of that document which is, in fact, March the 5th -- 15 pardon me, September the 5th of 1995 -- September 4th of 16 1995, under the entry at 22:34 hours? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You'll see that Stan Korosec 19 indicated that it was unsafe as people were coming from 20 everywhere. John Carson to Stan Korosec: 21 "We will patrol the area for the night, 22 continuing just as a perimeter patrol." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then the next -- the next part of 25 that entry reads:


1 "Stan Korosec advised that the Natives 2 told PC Speck and PC Parks that they 3 would be arrested if anyone stepped 4 onto the Park and they will be 5 confronted." 6 And that again just corresponds to the 7 information that you've just provided us. 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And your -- your entry at 21:49 where 13 it says: 14 "Returned to Forest authority Stan 15 Korosec, who had been speaking to 16 Inspector Carson..." 17 Do you have any -- 18 A: That's 21:45? 19 Q: 21:45. Thank you. Do you have any 20 idea about, or were you present for that conversation as 21 between Sergeant Korosec and Inspector Carson? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: And I take it that the decision that 24 you have recorded earlier, the decision that is, that was 25 formulated as between yourself, Sergeant Korosec, and Les


1 Kobayashi to serve the Notice of Trespass at... 2 A: I didn't make that decision with them 3 that decision was made and I wasn't part of that decision 4 making process. 5 Q: I see. You simply recorded it that 6 that's what would happen -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- at 22:00 hours -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- or ten o'clock? And given this 11 event and the instruction to or the order to leave the 12 Park, that you didn't -- you didn't get to the ten 13 o'clock deadline? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. By the time you're off 16 duty, sir, at 20:30 hours, we're now talking about the 17 5th of September? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And perhaps if you can just refer 20 then to your notes at page 33, Tuesday, 5th of September 21 1995. 22 A: Yes? 23 Q: If you can tell us what happened at 24 that point? 25 A: "On the 5th of September at 08:00


1 info from Detective Sergeant Richardson 2 of a damaged cruiser at approximately 3 16:00 hours the 4th of September '95 on 4 Matheson Drive, town of Bosanquet. 5 Vehicle 1995 Ford four (4) door white 6 licence 615 WWH Ontario which was being 7 operated by Provincial Constable Wade 8 Jacklin of Petrolia/Sombra OPP as a 9 member of our ERT. Owner Her Majesty 10 the Queen in right of the Province of 11 Ontario. Damage was to the left front 12 bumper damaged by a car door opened by 13 Stewart Bradley George. 14 According to Detective Sergeant 15 Richardson, George purposely opened his 16 door to damage the cruiser. Vehicle 17 Worm was in [which is Stewart Bradley 18 George] was a blue Pontiac Trans Am 19 licence 062 XCS, Ontario. 20 Judas was driving the Trans Am at the 21 time. Witnessed by Detective Sergeant 22 Richardson, Kent Crime Unit." 23 That's the damage to the car and then: 24 "I received information from Larry 25 Parks at approximately 9:15 a.m. [or


1 correction] 9:15 p.m. 4th September 2 '95. David Abraham George threw a 3 flare at him in Ipperwash Provincial 4 Park last night. Parks had to duck out 5 of the way to avoid being struck by the 6 lit flare. 7 Witnessed by Don Matheson of the MNR. 8 George charged possession of a weapon 9 dangerous to the public peace." 10 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you there for 11 a moment, then. 12 If I can ask you to turn, firstly, to Tab 13 number 39. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: There's an information there that 18 would appear you were the informant and you swear that on 19 the 5th of September. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It's Inquiry document 2001173 and 22 it's -- charges Stuart Bradley George with mischief for 23 damage to a cruiser, and that's in relation to the 24 incident you've just described? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: If we can have that marked as the 2 next exhibit, please? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1181, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1181: Document number 2001173. 6 Information of George Speck 7 Re: Mischief (cruiser damage) 8 September 05, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: And nextly at Tab 40, sir, is a 12 further information. Again, you are the -- the deponent 13 of that information. It's Inquiry document 2001178. 14 And it charges David Abraham George on the 15 4th of September with having a weapon -- having in his 16 possession a weapon, namely a flare, for the purposes 17 dangerous to the public peace. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And further, that this same 20 individual, on or about the 4th of September, did assault 21 Larry J. Parks, a peace officer, engaged in the execution 22 of his duty. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that corresponds to the incident 25 that you've just described for us from your notes.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And if we can have that marked as the 3 next exhibit, please? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1182, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1182: Document number 2001178. 7 Information of George Speck 8 Re: Possession of weapon and 9 assault Peace Officer, 10 September 05, 1995 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: And your notes would indicate that 14 you also prepared charging documents for Roderick Abraham 15 George for the damage to the cruiser. Again that you've 16 already described that for us. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And I note that your notes from 12:00 23 hours to 12:30, again, simply recite the fact that -- 24 that these Informations were sworn. 25 A: Yes, I went to Sarnia that day and I


1 obtained a warrant for -- from JP Helen Gayle (phonetic). 2 I explained my grounds to her and swore to the 3 Informations: For Stuart Bradley George, a charge of 4 mischief over five thousand (5,000); Roderick Abraham 5 George, mischief over five thousand (5,000); David 6 Abraham George, have weapon dangerous to the public and 7 assault on a police officer. 8 And I prepared some -- went back and 9 prepared some arrest packages. 10 Q: All right. And further to that, I 11 see that your next notation is a surveillance flight in 12 MNR chopper with, is that, Paul Evans? 13 A: Paul Evans. 14 Q: And Paul Evans was -- is whom? 15 A: He's an identification officer for 16 the OPP. He's retired now, but he was an identification 17 officer. 18 Q: And we know that at 19:00 hours, 19 according to your notes, at least, you were back at the 20 Detachment and you were off duty. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you know at what time you 23 would have taken the surveillance flight -- 24 A: I don't know what time I went up. 25 Q: Right. I'm sorry, sir, I was --


1 A: I'm sorry. I don't know what time we 2 went up. 3 Q: All right. And can you tell us 4 anything about -- about this flight and what your purpose 5 in -- in taking this flight was? 6 A: I think they wanted the area down 7 Ipperwash filmed by Evans, and I went along for the ride, 8 just for the helicopter ride. 9 Q: Okay. Did you have any role in terms 10 of some of the role that you might have served previously 11 in terms of identification, that sort of thing? 12 A: No, I think I just went for the ride. 13 Q: All right. In terms of -- of that 14 ride, can you tell us anything about -- 15 A: I don't remember that particular one 16 very well. I really didn't make any note of anything we 17 did there. 18 Q: All right. Can you tell us whether - 19 - whether it was -- the height at which the -- the 20 helicopter flew, the flight pattern as it flew? 21 Do you recall anything like that? 22 A: Not -- not from this flight. 23 Q: In any event, you go off duty at 24 19:00 hours. Perhaps if you can just refer to your 25 notebook at page 36 and tell us when you came back on


1 duty and what happened? 2 A: "Back at 8:00 in the morning. 3 Instructed by Detective Sergeant 4 Richardson to proceed to the Army Camp 5 beach where Natives have the road 6 blocked off with picnic tables at the 7 beach parking lot area and Army Camp 8 Road. ERT to arrest for charges of 9 possible mischief. 10 At 08:40 hours I went to the Army Camp 11 Road with the ERT team. Went to 12 junction of Parkway Drive. There were 13 twenty-one (21) picnic tables from the 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park in a circle 15 around a fire in the middle of the 16 roadway leading down to the beach where 17 the public has access to. 18 There was also a tent pitched by the 19 fire. As we approached, two (2) 20 Natives who were sitting on a picnic 21 table behind the tent got up and ran 22 back into the Park. 23 The roadway down to the beach was 24 effectively blocked by this for public 25 use. One of the Natives sitting on the


1 picnic table was Anthony O'Brian 2 George. He was wearing a bright blue 3 T-shirt. 4 He went approximately a thousand (1000) 5 feet back into the Park and stood 6 around. I didn't know who the second 7 person was, I didn't get a good look at 8 him. 9 Picnic tables and tent were removed 10 from the roadway." 11 Again, I've got note of: 12 "This is a public road which leads down 13 to the beach area on the west side of 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 15 maintained by the Town of Bosanquet." 16 I think this whole thing was videotaped by 17 Evans. The picnic tables and everything was loaded up 18 onto a -- like a flatbed and taken to the big parking lot 19 off of Parkway Drive. 20 Q: And that's been described to us as 21 the MNR parking lot? Is that the -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Let me just take you back 24 to the beginning of those notes, if I may, sir. When you 25 arrived at -- on duty that morning, did you receive any


1 kind of a debriefing as to any occurrences from the night 2 previous during the time that you were off duty? 3 A: On the 6th of September? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I don't -- I don't have anything 6 noted, sir. 7 Q: All right. Might it be usual for 8 that sort of thing to take place. And again, I'm not 9 asking you to speculate on whether it happened -- 10 A: Well this -- 11 Q: -- but is it usual that when you come 12 on duty, especially on an ongoing incident, that there 13 might be a debriefing? Or a briefing, if that's more 14 accurate? 15 A: I don't recall a briefing taking 16 place that morning. 17 Q: And again, the -- the question I 18 asked you is whether or not it might be usual that that 19 should happen? 20 A: It didn't always happen. 21 Q: Okay. If I can turn your attention 22 to the top of your page 27, you're advised -- 23 A: 27? 24 Q: 37, pardon me. 25 A: 37.


1 Q: You're advised to attend at that 2 location, Army Camp Beach Road, given these picnic tables 3 that are set out there. And do you see where it reads: 4 "At 08:40 hours I went to Army Camp 5 Road." 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And there's a number in the margin it 8 appears 165494. Is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: It's probably an occurrence number. 12 Q: All right. And you were pretty 13 precise in terms of the number of picnic tables? 14 A: I had to have counted them, that's 15 the only way I could think of that. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: For some reason I had to have counted 18 them. 19 Q: And given your familiarity with the 20 person you've identified as being one (1) of those 21 sitting on the picnic tables, you recognized Anthony 22 O'Brien or Dudley George? 23 A: Yes. I don't have anything noted in 24 my notebook, but I think he even turned and waved. 25 Q: Okay. And then went back into the --


1 went into the Park? 2 A: He was in the Park, yeah. And nobody 3 went in after him, I was -- we're just there to clear up 4 the roadway. 5 Q: Do you recall who it was that you 6 would have been in attendance with; how many officers 7 might have attended? 8 A: I don't know how many were there. 9 There were some ERT people. They sent enough to load all 10 the picnic tables. I don't -- I took my own car, I know. 11 Q: Had you heard at that point, sir, of 12 anything in the nature of picnic tables being pushed or 13 rammed by a police vehicle, that might have occurred, 14 perhaps, the night or -- or at sometime previous to this 15 incident? 16 A: That is familiar to me, but I don't 17 know why I heard it or I don't know where -- where I got 18 that information, but I heard it somewhere. 19 Q: All right. And you have at -- at the 20 end of that entry, as you've just described for us, but 21 Provincial Constable Parks had videotaped this entire 22 incident? 23 A: No, Paul Evans would have. 24 Q: Oh, pardon me, Provincial Constable 25 Evans? Okay. Do you ever have occasion --


1 A: This -- this says witnessed by PC 2 Parks, videotaped by PC Evans. 3 Q: All right. And -- and the question I 4 simply wanted to ask you was whether or not you've ever 5 had occasion to see that videotape? 6 A: I have not. 7 Q: Would you be good enough then just to 8 continue, sir, at your entry at 11:00 hours? 9 A: I was -- 10 Q: It would appear that you took a 11 second helicopter flight. 12 A: This is the one I remember more. 13 Q: Okay. Tell us about that. 14 A: It's with the MNR pi -- it was an MNR 15 pilot, it was an MNR helicopter, and it was yellow. The 16 pilot was Chris Bishop and I was with Paul Evans. We 17 filmed the Ipperwash Provincial Park area. We were, at 18 least -- I think the lowest we went out was tree level. 19 Q: And how high would that be -- 20 A: How high is a tree? 21 Q: -- for those of us not familiar with 22 the trees in that area? 23 A: How high is a tree? I don't know. 24 You would still be kicking up the dust on the ground, but 25 I can't tell you how high we were.


1 Q: We've heard something about and -- 2 and perhaps even seen images from a videotape of perhaps 3 people throwing items or rocks or stones or something? 4 A: Yeah, they were. 5 Q: Did you see anything like that? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: They were throwing stones. 9 Q: Do you know who that might have been 10 and whether -- 11 A: No, I -- no, I don't know who it was 12 now. 13 Q: And secondly, whether it posed any 14 danger to the craft you were in? 15 A: It didn't. 16 Q: Beyond stones, did you see any of the 17 people that were in occupation of the Park brandishing 18 any weapons or any sort of offensive material? 19 A: I don't recall seeing any. 20 Q: We've heard something, as well, about 21 people picnicking in the Park, those in occupation of the 22 Park, they were having picnics. 23 A: I don't remember picnickers. 24 Q: Food items or their -- their picnic 25 being disturbed?


1 A: I don't remember it. 2 Q: All right. Beyond what you've just 3 described of this helicopter flight, is there anything 4 that you can add on that? Do you know how long, for 5 example, that might have gone on? 6 A: Well, we were back at Forest at 7 11:45, so we would have taken off at 11:00, back at 8 11:45. 9 Q: Where did you leave from and where 10 did you arrive back at? Where did you land? 11 A: From -- from behind our office in 12 Forest. 13 Q: Do you know who was operating the 14 helicopter? Would that have been an OPP member? 15 A: No, it would have been an MNR fellow 16 by the name of Chris Bishop. 17 Q: Thank you. Now, perhaps you can just 18 continue then with your notation at 11:45 hours, Officer 19 Speck? 20 A: Well, I went back to Forest, I did 21 some OMPAC report for the mischief to the cruiser 22 reported on the 5th of September. I accused Stewart 23 Bradley George. The operator was PC Jacklin. Then 24 there's -- there's the occurrence number. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Then I went -- I don't know what -- 4 don't have the time but it says: 5 "To meet Detective Sergeant Barry 6 McKenzie, Wires Coordinator OPP at the 7 Crown Office in London and meet Crown 8 [and then it's got his name] re: wires 9 and probes." 10 Q: Okay. And we'll come to that in a 11 moment but before we do if I could ask you to turn to Tab 12 35. Again that is the excerpts from the scribe notes 13 marked as Exhibit P-426. If I could ask you to turn four 14 (4) pages in, that is page 59, there's an entry at 10:19 15 hours you see the second -- the second entry in under 16 that notation of 10:19 hours begins with, "John Carson--" 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: "-- Crime." 19 "TREVOR RICHARDSON: This morning 20 picnic tables were blocking public 21 beach. Went in and three (3) and six 22 (6) stayed at checkpoints --" 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: " -- one (1) and two (2) went in." 25 I take it that those refer to the --


1 A: The checkpoint areas. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 "One (1) guarded fence, 2 District and 4 MNR loaded tables." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: "Took down tent, brought things back. 7 They identified Dudley George sitting 8 on picnic table. Turned and waved when 9 we arrived. George Speck identified 10 him to be charged for mischief and 11 possession of stolen property." 12 Right? And that corresponds to the 13 evidence that you've just described for us -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- from your notes as well as your 16 own recollection. 17 And if I could ask you then to turn to Tab 18 41 that is a general occurrence report it bears Inquiry 19 Document Number 2005502. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And perhaps before I refer further to 22 that I'll ask that that be marked as the next exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1183, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1183: Document number 2005502.


1 General Occurrence Report Re: 2 Picnic tables (D/C Speck is 3 the complainant) September 4 06, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Okay. You'll see that you're the 8 Complainant on that -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- occurrence report and it is filed 11 by J. Vandenberg; that's Janet Vandenberg -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- of 6 September, 1995? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- the Commission is Anthony 16 O'Brien George was blocking off Army Camp Road with 17 picnic tables which were stolen from Ipperwash Provincial 18 Park. Do you see that? 19 "Weapons used. Twenty-one (21) picnic 20 tables value thirty-one hundred fifty 21 dollars ($3,150); recovered thirty-one 22 hundred fifty dollars ($3,150)?" 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if you can just go down a ways 25 into that entry it says:


1 "A warrant to arrest has been obtained 2 for George for possession of stolen 3 property under five thousand (5,000) 4 and mischief over five thousand 5 (5,000). George has been entered on 6 CPIC." 7 Do you see the tense on that -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- that the warrant to arrest has 10 been obtained? Do you know, sir, whether or not in fact 11 a warrant to arrest had been obtained? 12 A: It had not. 13 Q: If I can ask you to flip then to the 14 next page of that document, the supplemental report where 15 it says rather, "Supplemental Report" and in brackets 16 "last report." Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that again is filed by Janet 19 Vandenberg on 21 September of '95? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And it again refers to the incident 22 of 06 September '95 08:40? 23 "OPP members resulted in the fatal 24 shooting of Anthony O'Brien (Dudley) 25 George. As a result charges were not


1 processed and no further action." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. So the -- the reference 4 to a warrant to arrest has been obtained is simply not 5 accurate? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. Before I go 8 on I -- I might just ask you, you've described some 9 dealings that you had with Dudley George up to that 10 point. Is there anything further that you can tell us? 11 I mean, obviously you recognized him as 12 being the person on the picnic table, you recalled him 13 perhaps turning and waving. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: You recalled him on an earlier 16 occasion holding a gun by the forestock outside of his -- 17 outside of his -- or at his residence, if I can put it 18 that way -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- on -- on the 20th of April -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- of -- of the year previous? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Is there anything else 25 that you can add to that in terms of your dealings with


1 that individual? 2 A: During this time? 3 Q: Yeah or throughout that period as to, 4 you know, what you -- how you knew him, that sort of 5 thing. 6 A: I knew him from when I came to town 7 to work here. The only dealings I had with him when he 8 had a bit of a drinking problem. I never considered him 9 criminal element or anything although he did have a 10 record that I'm aware of. 11 And I did have an occurrence involving a 12 fraud with him. But he wasn't a violent person that I 13 was aware of, let's put it that way. I never had 14 anything to do with him that way. 15 Q: Perhaps I can turn you then back to 16 your -- your notes. You had mentioned the second 17 helicopter flight. You've already described that for us, 18 sir. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You then attend the -- at the Crown 21 office in London to meet with the Crown, Jeff Beasley 22 (phonetic), is that -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Re: wires and probes. Can you tell 25 us what that was about?


1 A: Probes were put in the maintenance 2 shed of the Provincial Park as well as a camera. They 3 wanted a tap on the phone too. And Barry McKenzie was 4 putting the information together to obtain an 5 authorization. 6 Q: Okay. And did you have anything to 7 do with obtaining that authorization? 8 A: No. All I did was -- I supplied 9 information to Barry McKenzie. I wasn't part of the 10 process to actually obtaining it. 11 Q: If I can just get a moment, 12 Commissioner, I'm sorry. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: You were back at the office to work 17 on paperwork I take it, from the mischief charges from 18 the 4th of September. We've already gone through that. 19 And when you went off duty at 20:00 hours, 20 do you know whether or not that there was anybody else 21 from CIB or the Criminal Investigations Branch that would 22 have been there to take your place? 23 A: No, not that I'm aware of. 24 Q: All right. And when you went off 25 duty on that -- on that evening, did you have any


1 expectation or was there any suggestion that there might 2 be anything further developing that evening? 3 A: I wasn't aware of anything. 4 Q: Did you have occasion to overhear any 5 discussion in the offices that you were at, that is the 6 Detachment offices or the Crime office, I think as you 7 might have described it, with respect to the obtaining of 8 an injunction or other legal remedy? 9 A: I know there was -- they were working 10 on getting an injunction. I think Mark Wright was 11 heavily involved in that. I didn't -- I wasn't involved 12 in that process at all. 13 Q: And did you hear any of the 14 discussion -- is there anything that you can recall that 15 you can tell us about today? 16 A: I wasn't part of any discussions on 17 it. 18 Q: Again, in reference to your notes, 19 can you tell us what happened next? 20 A: "On Wednesday the 6th of September at 21 22:30 hours I called back re. Ipperwash 22 Provincial Park for a mischief on Army 23 Camp Road in the Town of Bosanquet. It 24 occurred approximately 19:51 hours." 25 Q: It was a report by Gerald George,


1 wasn't it? 2 A: It was a report by Gerald George. 3 "Damage to a 1988 Pontiac Grand Am that 4 he was driving. It wasn't his vehicle. 5 George reported this to Officer Sam 6 Poole --" 7 Q: Right. Just before you go on, if I 8 may, Officer Speck. The vehicle that Mr. Gerald George 9 was operating, it belonged to whom? 10 A: His sister. 11 Q: All right. Carry on. 12 A: Toni Jeanette George. Okay? 13 Q: Yes, carry on please. 14 A: I went in -- the report on that is 15 not in my name but I'm sure I wrote out a general report 16 on the old -- our old report forms and this was later 17 added on. So what I did was fill out a paper report on 18 it, made these notes. And I was just kind of hanging 19 around the office. 20 Q: If you can refer to your notes at 21 page 40, that is a continuation of this information that 22 you would have received, correct? 23 A: Yes. The one at 23:20, sir? Is that 24 what you're talking about? 25 Q: No. The information before that, if


1 you had not -- 2 A: Oh, okay. 3 "George told Poole that he was 4 operating his sister's car when he 5 drove onto Army Camp Road from Parkway 6 Drive. Stewart Georg [brackets] (Worm) 7 flagged him down. Worm was mad at 8 George over an article George had put 9 in the paper. 10 Worm had been drinking. George pulled 11 away and Worm threw a rock at him, 12 striking the vehicle on the back left 13 quarter panel directly behind the 14 driver's door. 15 George then drove away." 16 Q: All right. And let me just ask you, 17 sir, if I may, do you know where this information would 18 have been taken from? Where did you get this 19 information? 20 A: From a statement that Sam Poole would 21 have taken. 22 Q: All right. And the statement that 23 Sam Poole would have taken, that would have came into 24 your possession, I take it, and you would -- 25 A: At least a copy would have.


1 Q: And then you would have recorded the 2 information from that statement into your notebook? Is 3 that -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And that would have 6 happened at least at 22:30 hours. That's the time that 7 you recorded there. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And if I can ask you to turn to Tab 10 42 of the Book of Documents in front of you, that is 11 Inquiry Document 2005502, it's an occurrence report. Are 12 you there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: General occurrence report is filed -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab was 16 that again, Mr. Worme? 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Tab 42. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 I want to be with you. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps I can ask that 21 that be made the next exhibit and then I'll -- I'll refer 22 to it. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 42? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1184, Your Honour. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: P-1184? Thank you.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1184: Document number 2005502. 2 General Occurrence Report Re: 3 Rock thrown at car (D/C Speck 4 is a witness) September 06, 5 1995 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: So it was filed by Chris Martin on 9 the 9th of September '95. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You with me on that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it's an incident from the 6th of 14 September 1995 -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- at 19:51 hours. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: For -- for lay people, that's 7:51 or 19 just before eight o'clock, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. And it says, again this if 22 information that you've just described for us, that the 23 suspect threw a rock, subsequently struck the rear driver 24 side, quarter panel damage the same. 25 And that is the same document?


1 A: That is. 2 Q: Okay. And I note that you are 3 identified as the person involved. If you go down the 4 document do you see where it says, Person Involved -- 5 Persons Involved? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you're identified there as a 8 witness to this. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And I take it that that 11 doesn't mean that you were a witness in the sense that 12 you observed this but that -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- you had some involvement? 15 A: That's the computer's way of putting 16 you down; you're a witness officer or -- I did not 17 witness the event. 18 Q: And I think you were attempting to 19 describe for us that this is -- that this report was 20 perhaps put on the system by Officer Martin? 21 A: Yes, there's no -- there's no doubt 22 about it. 23 Q: All right. Did you have computer 24 abilities or...? 25 A: You know what? I did have some but


1 not nearly as well as others. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: There were an awful of reports going 4 in and out and a lot of them were written out and put on 5 the computer later. 6 Q: Okay. In any event you know that you 7 were called in to prepare this report? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You -- you know that you worked on 10 this report. You recorded it in your notes, you simply 11 didn't put it onto the computer system -- 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: -- and that somebody else did? 14 A: In all likelihood I wrote out a paper 15 copy of our old LA-145's I think we used to call them and 16 they would have been put in a tray and somebody else 17 would put it on later. 18 Q: All right. And just in relation to 19 this incident of mischief that -- that you were -- you 20 were dealing with do you recall whether or not you might 21 have had a personal conversation with anybody about this? 22 Was this information provided to you in 23 person or -- or by a document or can you recall? 24 A: I can't remember whether I spoke to 25 Sam Poole or not. He would have been the only one I


1 spoke to I didn't speak to George that night. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can just tell us 3 then, following your dealing with that matter what 4 happened? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Perhaps just -- just before I move 9 on, Officer, if I may I'm going to put to you Inquiry 10 Document 2000549 which has been marked as Exhibit P-123. 11 This is an interview report that was taken 12 by Sam Poole, Officer Poole, from Gerald George in 13 relation to this incident and I would like you to take a 14 look at that and see if you can -- see if you recognize 15 that, whether in fact that's the document that you had 16 reviewed in preparation of your notes. 17 I thank Mr. Millar for raising that. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I don't have an independent 22 recollection of it. It's the only way it could have 23 happened though. 24 Q: Okay. The information that you see 25 recorded in that, that corresponds obviously to the notes


1 that you would have made? 2 A: It does. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. You can turn 4 back to your notes if you would, sir. 5 Following the notation of the incident 6 you've just described for us, if you can just continue 7 from there. 8 A: After I did that and there's no notes 9 in here about it but I was just kind of sitting in the 10 main office and the radio was on and I heard a lot of 11 commotion over the radio and then I heard shots being 12 fired. 13 "At 23:20 Detective Sergeant Wright 14 advised a male fired at our officers 15 and we returned fire and -- and shot 16 the person. 17 He was being taken to Strathroy 18 Hospital and Detective Constable Dew 19 and I were to proceed to the Strathroy 20 Hospital to arrest him for attempted 21 murder. 22 We arrived -- Dew and I left -- we 23 arrived at the hospital at 23:47 24 hours." 25 How far do you want me to go with this?


1 Q: Well, let me just stop you right 2 there, if I may? 3 First of all you -- you say that you were 4 sitting in the -- in the office; you hear commotion 5 including gunfire over the radio. 6 You don't have any notes of that in your 7 notebook? 8 A: None. 9 Q: Okay. Then you -- you confirm that 10 Detective Sergeant Wright advises and I take it he was 11 sitting there and he heard you same things as you did? 12 A: No, he would have been in the command 13 post. 14 Q: I see. And he came into the office-- 15 A: Yes -- 16 Q: -- or you went to the command post? 17 A: No he came into the office. 18 Q: All right. And he instructs yourself 19 and Officer Dew at that point in time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. As a result of receiving those 22 instructions I think your notation indicates that you 23 then proceed to the hospital, arriving there at the time 24 indicated, that is shortly before midnight? 25 A: Yes 23:49 -- or sorry 23:47.


1 " An ambulance arrived at 23:49, it was 2 the wrong one. Then Dew got a phone 3 call and from that information received 4 a white car loaded with Natives is 5 bringing in a Native with a sucking 6 chest wound. Back up requested from 7 London and Strathroy PF. 8 An ambulance arrived at 00:04 and it 9 was Nick Cottrelle." 10 Now my notes in here following this are 11 wrong. Because it's got Anthony O'Brien, George arrives 12 next. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And that is incorrect. 15 Q: Let me just stop you there if I may. 16 If I can ask you to turn to Tab 57, that's Inquiry 17 document 2003884, it is a Will Say from yourself. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: If I could have that marked as the 24 next Exhibit please? 25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P-1185,


1 Your Honour. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1185: Document number 2003884, Will 6 Say with attached handwritten 7 notes of George Speck 8 (undated) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: First of all, just with respect to 12 the first line, it indicates: 13 " Wednesday, September 7th, you were at 14 Forest Detachment when Detective 15 Sergeant Wright advised a male fired 16 at our offices at Ipperwash. We 17 returned fire and shot the person. The 18 person was being taken to Strathroy 19 Hospital." 20 A: Yes, the date is wrong, it should be 21 the 6th. 22 Q: And that would correspond to the 23 evidence you've just provided us now? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And then you'll see on the


1 next page, sir, on page 2 of that document at 12:04, it's 2 indicated: 3 "On September the 7th an ambulance 4 arrived with Nick Cottrelle. It was 5 taken directly to the emergency room?" 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: "And at 12:08, Anthony O'Brien George 8 was brought into the emergency room. 9 I was not outside when he arrived and 10 was not aware of what was taking place 11 outside of the emergency room." 12 A: You know what, that's out of context 13 because I believe Bernard George arrived after Nick. 14 Q: All right. And then your Will Say 15 goes on to note that a third person, Cecil George, that's 16 Bernard George you've just referred to -- 17 A: Yes -- 18 Q: Did you know him incidentally by the 19 name, Slippery, as well? 20 A: Slippery, yes. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 "Was brought into the emergency room by 23 St. John's Ambulance. The white car 24 that brought Anthony George to the 25 hospital was towed to the Strathroy


1 Ontario Provincial Police Office by 2 Condeiro's Towing." 3 A: Yes. This is where things get a 4 little messed up for me. And I -- I was not outside -- I 5 saw Nick arrive, saw Slippery arrive. And I was inside 6 the hospital away from everything when the white car 7 arrived with Dudley in it. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I wasn't part of the arrest of the 10 occupants of it. I remember seeing Dudley on the 11 stretcher inside the hospital. But the other commotion 12 was gone at that time. 13 Q: Okay. And if I can ask you to look 14 at -- and turn to page 40 -- pardon me, Tab 43 of the 15 Book of Documents, that's Inquiry Document 2003315, it's 16 the statement of Provincial Constable Angela Baker who 17 was interviewed on the 7th of September 1995. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Perhaps we can have that marked as 20 the next exhibit, and I will take the witness to it. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1186, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1186: Document number 2003315, 24 Statement, Interview report, 25 and notebook entries of


1 Angela Baker, OPP Constable, 2 September 07, 1995 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: I'm interested particularly in the -- 6 in the notations in the first paragraph of that document, 7 sir. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: She identifies herself as a Member of 10 the Strathroy Ontario Provincial Police. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: That she was working general uniform 13 duties on the 6th of September '95. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Perhaps I ought to read this as it 16 states: 17 "At 23:45 hours I was dispatched to 18 Strathroy Hospital to meet with two (2) 19 detectives from the Chatham area. 20 These detectives, Mark Dew and George 21 Speck, advised that there was suspects 22 on route to the hospital with an 23 injured party and all were to be 24 arrested on arrival. 25 I called the Strathroy OPP for help


1 [pardon me] for backup from other 2 officers. Provincial Constables 3 Miller, Dobb and Taylor and other 4 officers not from Strathroy OPP 5 arrived." 6 First of all, do you recall having a 7 conversation with Provincial Constable Baker? 8 A: I don't specifically remember it, but 9 it's quite possible it did take place because I was 10 outside the hospital in the front for a while, out in the 11 parking lot waiting. 12 And I know other officers arrived and she 13 very well was probably one of them. 14 Q: And in terms of the grounds for 15 arrest, did you advise Provincial Constable Baker, again, 16 if you can recall, as to what the grounds of arrest were? 17 A: I don't believe I did. I don't 18 recall doing it. 19 Q: Incidentally -- I'm sorry? 20 A: I don't recall giving him the 21 grounds. 22 Q: And incidentally were you given the 23 grounds for arrest when you were instructed by -- 24 A: The informa -- yeah, the instructions 25 were from Mark Wright through Mark Dew on the phone to


1 arrest the occupants for attempted murder. 2 Q: And beyond that were you given any -- 3 any grounds for the attempt murder? 4 A: No. Only from somebody was shooting 5 at our officers. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: That's as much as I knew. 8 Q: Thank you. Let me ask you about the 9 individuals then that were brought in by hospital and 10 your perspective of the order in which they arrived. 11 Did you know Nicholas Cottrelle, first of 12 all? 13 A: I knew Nicholas. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Not well, but I knew him. 16 Q: And can you describe for us what you 17 can recall in terms of the observations you might have 18 made of him when he was brought in? 19 A: Nicholas seemed all right to me. I 20 don't know what -- I didn't know what his injuries were 21 at the time. Somebody thought he had a gunshot wound, 22 but it was -- it turned out to be a minor injury on him. 23 Q: Did you have any dealings with 24 Nicholas Cottrelle at all -- 25 A: No.


1 Q: -- throughout this -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- incident? Not at all? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Can you tell us, nextly, with respect 6 to Cecil Bernard George, or Slippery? 7 A: I remember -- 8 Q: First of all, you -- you know who he 9 was. I think you've already confirmed that. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I remember seeing some blood on 13 Slippery's face. But he was wheeled into the hospital 14 and -- I remember the doctor being mad. And I don't -- 15 and I know she was angry. But I didn't really have 16 anything to do with Bernard that night either. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And that -- that -- at that point 19 they were being wheeled into the hospital when I saw 20 them. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: I took statements from the ambulance 23 attendants, and like I said I wasn't outside when the -- 24 the white car arrived. 25 Q: But you did -- you did see Dudley


1 George as he was brought into the hospital? 2 A: On the stre -- I saw him on the 3 stretcher in the hospital. 4 Q: Okay. What observations did you make 5 and what thoughts did you have? 6 A: He appeared dead to me. 7 Q: Perhaps you can just continue with 8 your notes, sir, and tell us what happened beyond that? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I spoke to the doctor -- Coroner -- 13 Dr. G. W. Perkin and he described -- eventually described 14 to me the damage to Dudley. Pardon me, he was -- he was 15 -- the information I got was that he was pronounced dead 16 at 00:20 hours by Dr. Allison Marr and that's -- pardon? 17 Q: Yes, go ahead. I'm sorry. 18 A: And then I spoke to the coroner Dr. 19 Perkin. Do you want me to tell you what he said or...? 20 Q: Please do. 21 A: He said the bullet entered the left 22 clavicle area, travelled down the left side through the 23 lung, three (3) ribs broken in the back, bullet 24 fragmented. Then some other officers arrived for -- for 25 security and continuity.


1 And at -- I did get a -- speak to 2 Detective Inspector Bob Goodall, although I don't have a 3 notation in here. I did speak to -- with him. He 4 arrived at the hospital and got a quick briefing of what 5 had transpired. And then at 2:45 I returned to Forest 6 after that briefing. The briefing with Inspector Goodall 7 was at 2:05 and at 2:45 I returned to Forest. 8 Q: All right. Just before we go on I'll 9 ask you to turn to Tab 44 of the book of documents in 10 front of you. 11 That is a document that has been marked as 12 Exhibit P-31 in these proceedings, it's under the 13 letterhead of Strathroy Medical Clinic. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Pardon me. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 381. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: 381. I believe I said 18 31. I stand corrected and thank you for that. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: It comes under the hand of Dr. G. W. 22 Perkin, MD. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if I can refer you to page 2 of 25 that -- of that letter, please?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: The second full paragraph, 3 approximately the middle of the page? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: The prior -- the prior paragraph 6 talks about the injuries to Dudley George. It says: 7 "Following this I spoke to a Detective 8 Speck of Forest OPP. I relayed my 9 findings to him; gave him my suggestion 10 that some radiographic examinations 11 would be done to determine the 12 presence, or not, of retained 13 ammunition fragments. And I 14 subsequently assisted x-ray technician 15 Albert Jennings of the Radiology 16 Department at Strathroy Middlesex 17 General Hospital in transporting the 18 deceased to the Radiology Department 19 where two (2) x-rays were done and an 20 AP of the chest and another, a lateral 21 of the chest." 22 Do you recall that suggestion being given 23 to you by Dr. Perkin? 24 A: No. 25 Q: While you were at the hospital, do


1 you recall that there were other First Nations people 2 arriving at the hospital to, I -- I guess, find out what 3 was going on? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And who do you recall attending? 6 A: George and her husband at the time, 7 Ward Smith. 8 Q: You said Pam, Pam George? 9 A: Pam. 10 Q: That would be the sister of -- 11 A: That's the sister. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Knobby came there, Spike. I can't 14 remember all who was there, but certainly they came. 15 Q: When you say, "Knobby," you've 16 identified him earlier as Robert George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And "Spike," we know him to be Ron 19 George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Had you any conversations with any of 22 these individuals, or was anything said to them that you 23 -- said by them to you, that you recall? 24 A: I looked at them when they walked in 25 and Knobby called me a Nazi, which hurt.


1 Q: Right. Did you have any 2 conversations with him subsequent to that regarding that 3 particular comment? 4 A: We didn't speak for quite awhile. 5 But, we both eventually got over it and renewed our 6 friendship. 7 Q: Did you ever speak about that 8 comment? 9 A: No. It was -- it was in the heat of 10 the moment. I mean he just lost a nephew. 11 Q: You referred to a briefing and your 12 notes referred to at 2:05 a briefing with Bob Goodall. 13 He would have been the Detective 14 Inspector? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you recall what the briefing was 17 about? 18 A: I think we just relaid the 19 information that we had to him because he was coming into 20 this cold. 21 Q: Do you recall receiving information 22 that SIU investigators were en route at some point in 23 time that evening? 24 25 A: I knew they would be.


1 Q: Can I ask you to turn to Tab 35 of 2 the Book of Documents in front of you? Again those are 3 excerpts from the scribe notes which have been marked as 4 Exhibit P-426. And I'd ask you to turn to page 91 of 5 that document. It's the third last page in. 6 The entry at 04:35 hours, do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And it reads: 9 "Randy Parent advised George Speck of 10 SIU Investigation en route." 11 A: All right. I don't particularly 12 remember him advising me, but, I knew they would be 13 anyway. 14 Q: If I can ask you to turn back to your 15 notes, Officer Speck, at page 44, there's an entry at 16 06:39 hours. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: It reads: 19 "Detective Sergeant Hudson on 20 contacting ERT personnel involved in 21 the incident." 22 A: Yes, this was what Inspector Goodall 23 wanted done. 24 Q: Perhaps you just might read that for 25 us --


1 A: Yes -- 2 Q: -- what was it that he wanted done? 3 A: "Briefed Detective Sergeant Hudson on 4 contacting ERT personnel involved in 5 this incident at 10:30 p.m. and checked 6 all their equipment for holes, paint, 7 gun powder et cetera and debrief them 8 on what they saw in what vehicle, where 9 shots came from and what they did and 10 what they did for Inspector Goodall -- 11 and what they did -- what they saw and 12 what they did and that's for Inspector 13 Goodall." 14 Q: Right. Did you do that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I take it you would have made reports 17 of that? 18 A: Reports? 19 Q: Or as far as the debriefing? 20 A: I wasn't part of the debriefing, sir. 21 Q: I see. Okay. Thank you. I wonder 22 if you might just continue then with your notations. 23 A: "I received information that Ed Isaac 24 called Chief Joe Gilbert at Wapole 25 Island at 03:00 hours and told he was -


1 - he has called his people (warriors) 2 and they are getting their guns 3 together and going to kill a few cops 4 even if they are Native. Sergeant 5 Hudson advised Speedy who was -- 6 Bressette was advised -- oh -- okay -- 7 Speedy got some information that 8 Natives were coming for support 9 including AIM members." 10 And then I advise Sergeant Hudson of that. 11 Q: AIM members would be? 12 A: American Indian Movement. 13 Q: Right. "Sergeant" -- what's that 14 next entry read? 15 A: Oh. 16 "Sergeant Hudson advised. Then assist 17 Detective Sergeant McKenzie re history 18 of persons involved in the takeover of 19 the Park re probe warrants." 20 Q: And the last entry there before you 21 went off duty at 10:30 hours? 22 A: "Told to stay at Pinedale Hotel in 23 Grand Bend." 24 And then the room number. 25 Q: All right. Why were you told to stay


1 at the Pinedale Hotel? 2 A: I think they were afraid there was 3 going to be repercussions at officers' homes. 4 Q: All right. And I understand, sir, 5 that over the next few days that you were involved in 6 investigating the occurrences that took place during the 7 occupation of the Park from the 4th to the 6th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And at Tab 47 is information of which 10 you are the informant charging Jeremiah George with 11 mischief -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- to a motor vehicle, property of 14 St. John's Ambulance, as well as charging him with theft 15 of a motor vehicle, namely, a St. John's ambulance. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 18 exhibit please. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1187, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1187: Document number 2001184. 22 Information of George Speck 23 Re: mischief and theft, 24 September 7, 1995 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: And if we turn nextly, sir, to Tab 3 55, it is a Will Say of yourself. It's Inquiry Document 4 2001174. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Perhaps that could be marked as the 9 next exhibit and I'll take the witness to that. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1188, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1188: Document number 2001174. 13 Speck's Will Say and notes 14 regarding David George and 15 Stacey George. Undated 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: And you'll see that in the -- in the 19 fourth paragraph of that Will Say on September the 15th, 20 '95. 21 "Detective Sergeant T. Richardson had 22 me view film footage of the TOC, that's 23 the TOC incident, to see I could 24 identify anyone involved in damaging 25 the OPP or St. John's Ambulance


1 property." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: "Upon viewing the tape I recognized 4 David Abraham George is kicking the St. 5 John's ambulance and Stacey Vaughn 6 George kicking an OPP cruiser." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I take it that that's where the 9 document I just referred to you -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- the information came from? 12 A: Yes, that film footage. 13 Q: Beyond that, sir, did you have any 14 involvement further in the Ipperwash incident? 15 A: I just investigated the -- the 16 recovery and theft of property belonging to the OPP and 17 the St. John's. I didn't really have anything else to do 18 with it. 19 I did receive further information of what 20 was to take place but not to do with the Park. 21 Q: All right. You did have some 22 involvement in facilitating an arrangement with the 23 Ministry of Natural Resources and the people in 24 occupation of the Park insofar as winterizing -- 25 A: Some time later, yes.


1 Q: And at Tab 49 there's a document 2 dated November 24th of 1995, it's marked as Exhibit P- 3 887. The subject of that is Ipperwash Issue, 4 winterization of Ipperwash Park facilities was discussed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I see your name. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And nextly at Tab 50 9 there is an e-mail to Peter Sturdy from Les Kobayashi 10 dated November 27th of '95. Again, a meeting regarding 11 entrance to the -- to the Camp Ipperwash and I see that 12 you're in attendance on behalf of the OPP, that there was 13 agreement to winterize, no other conditions. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Lastly, sir, I understand that there 16 were a number of charges that resulted as a result of the 17 Park occupation. A number of people were charged as I 18 understand with forceful entry? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You were involved in some fashion in 21 those charges being laid or sworn? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I'll have firstly, a copy of the 24 Sarnia Observer from the 13th of February, 1996, it's 25 Inquiry Document 2001861.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you'll see in the third paragraph 4 on the first column: 5 "Twenty-three (23) adults and one (1) 6 teen are members of a group of..." 7 Pardon me, let's go to the -- to the 8 paragraph just before that the second paragraph on the 9 first column? 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: John McNair made his comments this 12 morning after twenty-four (24) natives were charged with 13 occupying Ipperwash Provincial Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right. And you'll see the very last 16 -- in the last column the second last paragraph: 17 "Forest OPP Detective George Speck said 18 police negotiated an arrangement with 19 those charged to have them pick up 20 their summonses at the Kettle Point 21 Police Station rather than be 22 arrested." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And those were the arrangements I 25 take it that you would have made?


1 A: Yes, those arrangements were made. 2 Q: Could we make that the -- that the 3 next exhibit please? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1189, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1189: Document number 2001861. 7 Sarnia Observer article 8 "Laying charges won't solve 9 Ipperwash dispute: lawyer" 10 dated Feb. 13th, 1996 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Lastly I have a copy of an article 14 from the London Free Press -- Free Press dated February 15 13th, of 1996. It's of the same date. Again it simply 16 speaks to the fact. 17 You'll see that in the second paragraph 18 under the first heading where it says, "two (2) years"? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. The first paragraph 21 indicates -- pardon me the first entry of the first 22 paragraph of that article says: 23 "Twenty-four (24) people have been 24 charged in last September's takeover of 25 Ipperwash Provincial Park."


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: I guess the only thing that I would 3 ask you at the end of the day -- before we go on can I 4 have that marked as the next exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1190, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1190: Document number 1002090. 8 London Free Press article "24 9 face rarely laid charges in 10 Ipperwash park takeover" 11 dated Feb. 13, 1996 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: Do you know, Officer Speck, at the 15 end of the day what happened with those twenty-four (24) 16 charges? 17 A: They were withdrawn. 18 Q: And you know the reason why they were 19 withdrawn at all? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you -- did you have any input 22 into that at all? 23 A: I don't know whether it was some part 24 of a deal or what but they -- they were all withdrawn, 25 none of them were proceeded with.


1 Q: And, Commissioner, I don't have any 2 further questions in-chief of -- of Officer Speck. I -- 3 I do want to ask him however if he might have any 4 recommendations as we have asked other -- other 5 witnesses, whether you might have anything, Officer 6 Speck, in the way of recommendations that might assist 7 the Commissioner in -- in discharging his mandate? 8 A: The only recommendation I would have 9 is somebody -- that both -- that is acceptable to both 10 sides should be brought into these things at the earliest 11 possible time, somebody that's going to remain neutral so 12 that they keep dialogue open between both sides. 13 In -- at one (1) point the Stoney Pointers 14 just would not listen and they were very hard to 15 communicate with, whether it was through lack of 16 organization I don't know but certainly there must be 17 some trained Aboriginal people. 18 If you're dealing with Aboriginal problems 19 that could come in and act as a mediator at -- at the 20 earliest possible time for these things, somebody that 21 would be respected by both sides. That's the only 22 recommendation I would have. 23 Q: All right. I think you for that, 24 sir, and I thank you as well for your attendance here and 25 your testimony.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it? 2 MR. DONALD WORME: That is all that I 3 have in exam-in-chief -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Before we 5 break -- 6 MR. DONALD WORME: -- and perhaps we 7 might canvass the parties as to -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'd 9 like to canvass the parties before we go and just get an 10 idea of where we are. 11 Does anybody wish to cross-examine 12 Detective Sergeant Speck? All right, we'll just do it in 13 the usual way and see where we are. The OPP? 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Twenty (20) to 15 thirty (30) minutes, sir. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) to thirty 17 (30) minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Province 19 has no questions. 20 Ms. McAleer...? 21 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Possibly twenty 22 (20) to thirty (30) minutes. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) to thirty 24 (30) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of


1 Mr. Beaubien? 2 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Ten (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 4 Ms. Hutton? 5 MS. MELISSA PANJER: Ten (10) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 7 Lambton Shores? 8 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Ten (10) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 10 the Estate? 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 12 just so you know, we will be switching positions with 13 ALST for this witness and I'll reserve thirty (30) 14 minutes, depending on what comes before me at the end -- 15 before me. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 17 Esmonde...? 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Half an hour. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) minutes as 20 well. 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: No, an hour. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: No, I'm sorry one (1) 23 hour, pardon me. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 25 the residents of Aazhoodena?


1 MR. CAMERON NEIL: One (1) and a half to 2 two (2) hours. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The First 4 Nations? 5 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Thirty (30) 6 minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the 8 Chiefs, you're speaking for both? 9 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Yes, that's 10 collectively for both -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: ALST? 12 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Two (2) hours. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you make 14 any estimate at this stage or do you want to wait and 15 see -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'll have to wait and 17 see -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- how it 19 works out? 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you give 22 me some indication of what that is? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Assuming everybody 24 sticks to the maximum that they've indicated, which 25 frankly hasn't been practised to date, we're looking at


1 just over seven (7) hours if I'm not mistaken. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just over seven (7) 3 hours. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's hope 5 we can finish it in one(1) day when we come back, but, if 6 not we'll -- 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Of course we're not 8 sitting tomorrow. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 10 sitting this morning we're adjourning now until Monday 11 the 27th of March at 10:30. Should we start earlier? 12 Let's start at the regular time and hope we can finish it 13 in one (1) day. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could -- 15 well if we start at the regular time, perhaps we could 16 sit a little later. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd rather 18 start at 10:00 if it's possible -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, why don't we -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- maybe we 21 could -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- start at 10:00 23 then? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: --- possibly 25 finish it all in one (1) day.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, why don't we 2 start at 10:00 and hopefully we'll get done -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we have 4 to go a little later we will, finish it in one (1) day. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Great, so we'll start 6 at 10:00 then. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 8 adjourn now until Monday, March 27th, at 10:00 a.m. 9 Thank you very much. 10 11 (THE WITNESS RETIRES) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This public inquiry is 14 adjourned until Monday, March the 27th at 10:00 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 4:39 p.m. 17 18 19 Certified Correct 20 21 22 23 ____________________________ 24 Carol Geehan 25