11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 20th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 9 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 10 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 11 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 14 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 15 Jennifer McAleer ) 16 17 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 18 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 19 20 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 21 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Opening Comments 7 5 6 Mark Anthony Wright, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 9 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 290 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Inspector Wright. 12 13 MARK ANTHONY WRIGHT, Resumed 14 15 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin I 17 would just like to make one (1) administrative 18 announcement. I just want to remind everyone that 19 because this hall is not available on Thursday, we won't 20 be sitting on Thursday. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 22 Monday to Wednesday week. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. And I thought 24 I'd advise everybody but a question that was asked of me 25 this morning indicated that either I may not have or it
91 got lost somewhere, but I -- so I just wanted to let 2 everybody know. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Klippenstein, I think you're up and we're in the middle 5 of Mr. Rosenthal's cross-examination. We'll continue. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, as I 7 understand because of Mr. Rosenthal's scheduling conflict 8 he'll continue after I'm finished. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How -- how 10 long do you expect you may be, Mr. Klippenstein? 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I think our 12 estimate was four (4) to five (hours) which is possibly 13 still -- probably still accurate. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's carry 15 on and see. 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 18 Q: Good morning, Inspector Wright. 19 A: Good morning. 20 Q: As you may recall I'm Murray 21 Klippenstein, counsel for the Dudley George Estate and 22 Family. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I will be questioning you on a number 25 of topics today and for that purpose I will be referring
101 to the Commission's documents binder Volumes I and II 2 which I presume you have with you? 3 A: I -- I do. 4 Q: And I have prepared a supplementary 5 volume of documents which I believe is in a black binder 6 which you have with you as well? 7 A: I do. 8 Q: And then I believe also a second 9 group of supplementary documents which was provided to 10 you by notice last weekend, copies this morning, I 11 believe. 12 Do you have those available as well? 13 A: I have copies -- additional copies of 14 documents that I received this morning, if that's -- 15 Q: That -- 16 A: -- what you're referring to. 17 Q: That looks like the right ones, yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: If you could turn, in your Volume I 22 of the Commission's documents binders, the large binder, 23 to Tab 18, please. And... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
111 A: Yes. 2 Q: Do you have that? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And that's Exhibit -- for the record, 5 it's Exhibit P-426, Inquiry Document 1002419. 6 And I'd like to begin by asking you a 7 number of questions related to whether and how the 8 Premier's desires or involvement were transmitted to you 9 and your colleagues and I want to ask about a couple of 10 points in time on that topic. 11 And the first -- the first one I'd like to 12 ask about is in this page of the notes which, if you look 13 at it, appears to be a meeting occurring at approximately 14 9:25 in the morning on September 5th. 15 A: What page are you on, sir? 16 Q: And this is at page 24 in those 17 command post notes at Tab 18 of your binder, Exhibit P- 18 426. 19 A: Meeting at 9:25? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Okay, I'm there, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Do you see that, and do you 23 see on the left there's a notation, 9:25 hours, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And at the top it says:
121 "Present at meeting; John Carson, 2 Trevor Richardson, Mark Wright, Bill 3 Dennis, Brad Seltzer, Stan Korosec and 4 Don Bell." 5 Correct? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And that appears to be notes of a 8 meeting, it goes on for several pages, which those 9 individuals are present. 10 Do you -- do you have any recollection of 11 that meeting? 12 A: Some, yes. 13 Q: Some, yes. And I would like to 14 direct your attention to page 25 at the top. And I'll 15 read the paragraph at the top, which says: 16 "John Carson discussed issues about 17 injunction. Stated that the party the 18 injunction is against has the option to 19 appear. Doubtful it will happen today. 20 Advised that Staff Sergeant Lacroix has 21 been in contact with Marcel Beaubien, a 22 local Member of Parliament. He is 23 updating the Premier on the situation." 24 Do you recall anything at all about what's 25 discussed in those command post notes?
131 A: Specific to that paragraph I take it 2 you're talking about, right? 3 Specific to that paragraph that you've -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- just said? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I don't recall specifically this. I 8 do -- I believe my evidence in-chief was that I recalled 9 being aware that the Premier's office or Toronto were 10 alive to the fact that something was going down at this 11 part of Ontario; that there was an operation involved 12 here. 13 Q: All right. Let me be a little more 14 specific, if I can. 15 I take it you don't dispute you were 16 present in the room during this meeting? 17 A: I don't dispute that. 18 Q: Okay. And you don't dispute that 19 what is recorded in a general way in these notes was said 20 at this meeting; is that fair? 21 A: I don't have an independent 22 recollection of exactly what was said, so I don't know 23 how I can answer that more accurately than -- than that. 24 I mean, I have a general recollection of 25 what took place.
141 Q: Right. Let me ask you it this way: 2 Do you have any reason to doubt or disagree with what's 3 recorded in these notes? 4 A: No, I guess not. 5 Q: Yeah, okay. And so is it fair to say 6 that in fact you did hear John Carson say that the 7 Premier was apparently being updated on the situation? 8 A: I don't take issue with that. 9 Q: All right. Now, you at this time 10 were in char -- a detective in charge of major crimes in 11 your area; is that right? 12 A: At this time I was a detective -- 13 acting detective staff sergeant. 14 Q: Right. And major crimes, I believe, 15 that was part of your -- 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: -- I think I've seen it in your 18 resume or something? 19 A: Yeah, right. 20 Q: At this point in time had any of your 21 cases in your career ever attracted the specific 22 attention of the Premier up to this point? 23 A: Hmm, I'm not sure. I know I was 24 involved in some -- investigating some -- the best I can 25 put it is smuggling of human cargo across the river into
151 the States and I think that was in the news. 2 Q: That was in the news but -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- were you ever aware that the 5 Premier was specifically being updated on that particular 6 case? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And other than that, is it fair to 9 say this was the first case in your career which the 10 Premier of Ontario was being specifically updated on to 11 your knowledge? 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: And at this point you were the 14 assistant to John Carson the Incident Commander; is that 15 right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And it appears John Carson was the 18 one who was providing this information; is that fair? 19 A: Yes it is. 20 Q: And do you know why you were given 21 this information in that meeting about the Premier being 22 updated on this situation? 23 A: No. 24 Q: I take it you don't. Okay. Can you 25 think of now any explanation, reason for this information
161 being provided to you in the meeting? 2 A: No. I -- it was just -- I think it 3 was just to -- just to update us, give us a general 4 briefing as when we were doing the minutes of the 5 meeting. 6 Q: And surely this information was 7 irrelevant to your work as a police officer, would you 8 agree? 9 A: Yes. I would agree. 10 Q: Yeah. And do you recall at the time 11 whether you said to Mr. Carson, Inspector Carson, who you 12 were assistant to, that you might have some concerns 13 about this type of information about the Premier's 14 watching the situation being discussed in the meeting? 15 Did you mention -- 16 A: I don't recall that, no. 17 Q: And did anybody, to your 18 recollection, say anything about this being discussed at 19 the meeting? 20 A: I don't recall that either, sir. 21 Q: All right. And is it fair to say at 22 the -- that at the time since it was your boss, John 23 Carson, being an Incident Commander putting this forward, 24 that people would have listened to it seriously; is that 25 fair?
171 A: Sure. 2 Q: And in this meeting Stan Korosec was 3 there as well, right, according to the heading of the 4 previous page? 5 A: Yes. It appears he was. 6 Q: And he was the head of the ERT and 7 CMU; is that right? 8 A: ERT. 9 Q: He was the head of the ERT? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Yes. That's the overall ERT for the 12 whole incident; is that right? 13 A: Well, I -- I don't think I'd -- 14 that's kind of a broad statement. He was in charge of 15 ERT certainly up until the 6th of September. You know, 16 some time after the -- I would say shortly after the 17 shooting things changed a great -- as you are well aware, 18 a great number of additional people came in and I -- I 19 would say -- I would think that his job changed and 20 somebody else started to look after that but you'd have 21 to ask him; that's my recollection. 22 Q: All right. But certainly up until 23 the shooting he was the overall head of the ERT? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. All right. And I'd like to
181 look at a second reference that occurs in these -- in 2 these notes and that's at -- first of all I'll -- I'll 3 turn you to the handwritten notes and the typewritten 4 notes. 5 First of all, the handwritten notes which 6 are at Tab 19 in the binder you have before them, if you 7 could turn to Tab 19? 8 A: Page...? 9 Q: At page 438 which is, for the record, 10 Exhibit P-427. So at handwritten page 438. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And if you could keep a finger on 16 that and turn to the -- the typewritten version of those 17 notes which is at Tab 18 page 38? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the -- the notation that I'd like 20 to refer you to and I'll just clarify the location here 21 first occurs at the top of page 38 of the typewritten 22 notes. It actually doesn't occur there, it's omitted 23 there but just for context that's where it fits in. 24 And if you look at the typewritten notes, 25 that's -- following it back to page 37, that's a meeting
191 of approximately 15:07 hours or 3:07 in the afternoon on 2 September 5th; does that make sense; if you can have a 3 glance at that and see? 4 A: Yes, it makes senses. Yes. 5 Q: All right. So these notes then are 6 at an -- and if you could just glance at the notes 7 following the 15:07 time designation you see various 8 speakers running onto page 38, John Carson, yourself, Les 9 Kobayashi, Korosec, et cetera; do you see that? 10 A: Right, yes. 11 Q: So it appears to be another one of 12 the Command Post briefing units, briefing meetings right? 13 A: Yes, I would agree with you. 14 Q: Yes. And now, still keeping your 15 finger on the typewritten pages, if you turn to the 16 handwritten notes that I referred you to at Tab 19 page 17 438 -- do you have the -- the handwritten notes? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Near the bottom you see the notation: 20 "J.C.: Premier's no different 21 treatment from anybody else." 22 Right? Do you see that? 23 A: I see it. 24 Q: Okay. Now, those -- that sentence 25 referring to the Premier is missing from the typewritten
201 notes. 2 A: Okay. Yeah. 3 Q: Do you know anything about that 4 omission? 5 A: Do I know anything about the... 6 Q: The omission of that sentence from 7 the typewritten notes? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No. All right. That comment, I take 10 it like the previous review of the comment we looked at, 11 you were -- you appear to be present in the meeting and 12 you heard that comment; is that fair? 13 A: Well, I don't recollect hearing it 14 but I'm -- I don't take issue with the fact that it's in 15 the handwritten scribe notes so I'm sure I was there when 16 it was said -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- and I would have heard it. 19 Q: Okay. I could go through more detail 20 but just to be practical it's -- that seems to be -- 21 seems to be obvious. 22 And again it was John Carson making that 23 comment; is that right? 24 A: Looks that way, yes. 25 Q: Yes. And would you agree with me
211 that John Carson is providing to the meeting what Carson 2 understands is the Premier's opinion on the situation at 3 Ipperwash; that's what you heard right? 4 A: Well, again, it's difficult to say 5 because I don't have any independent recollection of this 6 specific statement but it appears that that's so. 7 Q: Okay. And again do you have any view 8 of how that statement was relevant to the work that you 9 and your colleagues in that meeting were doing as police 10 officers? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 12 Sandler? 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Well, leave aside the 14 limited value of all of this, given the lack of 15 recollection -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- and given the fact 18 that Mr. Millar's dealt with it, but even apart from 19 that, I think if he's going to put that question, he 20 should put the entire comment that John Carson said here. 21 You've heard it a number of times, Commissioner, but in 22 fairness to the Witness it is simply, "Premier's no 23 different treatment from anyone else." 24 It continues on. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, and I--
221 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm inclined 2 not to put it to the Witness because it's not relevant 3 for purposes of my question. The Witness has it in front 4 of him and I am really not interested in Mr. Sandler's 5 argument, if -- if he can read it, but the point is, this 6 is a statement about the Premier's opinion and that's 7 what my questioning is about. 8 Mr. Sandler can question about something 9 else if he wants, but -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, but in fairness, 12 I think you should give him the whole -- to the Witness, 13 if you're going to do that. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm just trying 15 to be expeditious, but fine. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 19 Q: Okay, Mr. Carson, or Inspector 20 Carson, I'd like to read that paragraph to you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Excuse me, 23 Inspector Wright. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Inspector 25 Wright, yes.
231 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 3 Q: Inspector Carson says: 4 "Premier's no different treatment from 5 anybody else. We're okay, on right 6 track. Concern notice wasn't accept. 7 Ron Fox dealing with legal issues." 8 Can you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Now, let's go back, since 11 -- since Mr. Sandler has raised this. Does this change 12 your answer that you and your colleagues in the meeting 13 were being advised by the incident commander of the 14 premier's opinion about the operation? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. Doesn't change your 17 answer? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Okay. Now, again -- 20 A: Well, again with -- with the caveat 21 that, once again, I don't have an independent 22 recollection of this and appears that I was at the 23 meeting and it's the scribe notes, so you know, one (1) 24 and one (1) equalling two (2), I don't take issue with 25 this, but I don't have an independent recollection of
241 this taking place. 2 Q: I understand. I'm trying to -- 3 A: And -- 4 Q: -- be commonsensical about it -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- and that's -- 7 A: As am I. 8 Q: Okay. Again, now this is the 9 afternoon of the 5th, the -- and again we have Mr. 10 Korosec or Sergeant Korosec -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: The head of the ERT also hearing this 13 as well, right? 14 A: I don't know. Is he -- is he present 15 during this? 16 Q: According to the typewritten notes he 17 is as well. Which was one of the names I went with you 18 before on page 38 of the -- of the typewritten notes. 19 A: Yes, I would agree with you that it 20 appears that Stan is -- it appears that Stan is there. 21 However, once again, you know, these -- these -- well, 22 let's talk about the typed scribe notes. 23 I mean, it's not -- the time here is 15:07 24 and then the next time is 15:52 and between those two (2) 25 times we have one (1), two (2), three (3), four (4), five
251 (5), six (6) -- eight (8) paragraphs of information. 2 And I don't think you can put -- I don't 3 think you can make the leap that, because something is 4 said in paragraph 4 and then Korosec shows up some time 5 later in paragraph 8, that Korosec was necessarily there 6 during that conversation, because it's not finely tuned 7 like that. 8 I mean, it's difficult to say. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Well, fair enough, logically speaking 13 but -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- let's be realistic. These were 16 command post meetings and people were expected to 17 basically sit from the beginning to the end, unless there 18 was some kind of emergency or something like that, right? 19 A: During a meeting? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. But if you see, sir, what the 22 point I'm trying to make here, just so we're accurate is 23 that the two (2) times are 15:07 and 15:52 is -- is the 24 time that brackets that information -- 25 Q: Yes.
261 A: -- and we wouldn't sit for an hour at 2 a meeting. If you go back in the notes you'll see that 3 when we have meetings, they're five (5) minutes long, 4 seven (7) minutes long. 5 I mean, Carson even talks about every hour 6 we're going to get together for five (5) or ten (10) 7 minutes. So, to suggest that this information takes 8 place in the context of forty (40) some -- forty-five 9 (45) minutes I just -- I can't be -- I don't know how 10 much help I can be with respect to therefore Korosec was 11 around when that was -- you know, you'd best ask Korosec 12 because I couldn't say. 13 Q: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just for the purposes 16 of the record, on page 38 the time 15:52 has been 17 corrected to 15:42. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: My -- my very helpful counsel are 22 totally confusing me which is very easily done. I just 23 doubled my estimate for my cross-examination thanks to 24 the help of my -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Stop
271 helping. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: Yeah, thank you, Inspector -- is it, 5 Carson or -- 6 A: Wright. 7 Q: Yeah, sorry. I don't mean to be 8 disrespectful. But your point with respect to the timing 9 I take, but the bottom of page 38 notation as corrected 10 is 15:42 but the line -- the paragraph above that has 11 Sergeant Korosec speaking; is that -- do you see that? 12 A: Right, right. 13 Q: Which suggests that it may not have 14 been at 15:42 because we don't know how the time works. 15 But the grouping above was probably the meeting more or 16 less as a unit; is that right? 17 A: No -- no, I guess that -- that -- 18 what I'm trying to say to you, sir, is that first of all 19 it doesn't say it's a meeting as in the other ones where 20 it says meeting 09:25 and those people present, so I'm 21 somewhat dubious to suggest or agree with you that 15:07 22 is a meeting where there are X number of people. 23 I think what's happening here, frankly, is 24 that, we're in the command post and information is 25 continually being shared. But, you know, you were asking
281 if Korosec, I understood your question to be, was Korosec 2 aware of this conversation with respect to the Premier 3 being concerned, or whatever the quote is. 4 And my response to you was I couldn't say 5 for sure because again, I don't have any independent 6 recollection. And it's hard to say whether or not 7 Korosec was around when that happened, you'd have to ask 8 him. 9 Q: All right. But let's look -- look at 10 the notes and you can help me out if -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- if I'm misunderstanding. And look 13 at the notation of 15:07 and the paragraph -- 14 A: 15:07, yeah. 15 Q: -- thereafter and just look at the 16 first few words of each paragraph. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: The first one says, "Inspector Carson 19 advised, Les Kobayashi advised, John Carson states" as I 20 go through the paragraphs, right? "Detective Sergeant 21 Wright advises" -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- "Les Kobayashi states, Inspector 24 Carson advises, Les Kobayashi wanted to know, Inspector 25 Ron Fox" and --
291 A: Right. 2 Q: And then "Sergeant Korosec advised". 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Would you agree with me that -- that 5 is -- that appears to be a meeting in which various 6 people are advising the meeting of various things? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. And can you explain to me 9 then, for example, Inspe -- how the note taker to -- to 10 your understanding would have taken these notes? 11 A: Well, again, as I recall it was is 12 the scribe was pretty close to John Carson, so as people 13 came and went to John, information was share -- 14 information was given to Inspector Carson and the scribe 15 took those notes down. 16 Like, Korosec could very well be, and 17 again, you know, Korosec could be at the front of the 18 command post listening to or arranging for the Kincardine 19 boat while there's a conversation at the back end of the 20 trailer with myself and John or Les Kobayashi and John in 21 regards to any -- any number of these -- these 22 conversations. 23 So the only thing I'm telling you is that, 24 the point I'm trying to make is you asked me would 25 Korosec have heard this and I'm saying I can't answer
301 that because I don't know where Stan was in that and this 2 is not indicative of a meeting per se. 3 I think what this is -- is -- this is 4 we're running the operation and information's flowing to 5 the Incident Commander. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right. Let's go back to the top 10 of page 38 then. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And I was asking you particularly 13 about the gap on page 38, which according to the 14 handwritten notes has the comment, "Premier's no 15 different treatment", right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: The -- the conveyance of the 18 Premier's information. The paragraph before that talks 19 about Les Kobayashi advising and the paragraph after it 20 says, "John Carson states", right? 21 A: Yes, sir, that's what it says. 22 Q: And so what you're telling me is that 23 we have no way of knowing who this person speaks to; they 24 could be talking to anybody or nobody because the notes 25 don't tell that?
311 A: No, I didn't say that. They wouldn't 2 be talking to nobody. I would think it's a pretty safe 3 bet that anything in the -- in this book where the scribe 4 -- certainly in here, is writing down notations, John 5 Carson would be alive to it because that's the -- that's 6 the idea of a scribe. 7 They -- they stand pretty close to the 8 person in charge and they take those notes down, and 9 people flow in and out of that circle and provide 10 information to the Incident Commander, and therefore you 11 see information attributed to them. 12 Q: So the -- are -- are you saying to me 13 that the only thing we can take from these notes is when 14 somebody like Les Kobayashi advised -- the only thing we 15 know is that Les Kobayashi was saying something to John 16 Carson because the scribe is following John Carson 17 around; that's all we can tell? 18 A: I -- no, I'm saying -- 19 Q: Is that what you're saying? 20 A: I -- I'm saying that that's not all 21 we can tell. I think we can be somewhat certain of that 22 because that's how the scribe -- that's how the scribe 23 works at a major incident. 24 As to who else may have come in or been 25 within earshot of that, you'd have to ask the individual
321 people -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 3 right. 4 THE WITNESS: -- within that trailer 5 whether or not they had an independent recollection and - 6 - and/or they were aware of what was going on there. I 7 think you have -- one (1) of the things we did, and I 8 stand to be corrected, but we have the notes in front of 9 us here, but when we were meeting it would say 'meeting' 10 and it would say who was there -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 12 THE WITNESS: -- and away we go. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 15 Q: And can you -- okay, let's -- let's 16 just test the suggestion you've made, and I go back to 17 page 37 for instance. 18 A: Yeah? 19 Q: And I go back to page 36, and I go 20 back to page 35, and I go back to page 34, and I see no 21 mention by the scribe that they're in a meeting. 22 And should I take from that that there was 23 no meeting during that fairly extensive time period? 24 A: Again, that -- that's -- I can't say 25 for sure because I'm not the author of these notes, but I
331 can tell you that, you know, when there -- there appears 2 to be times within here, example, 09:25 hours meeting. 3 And all these people in charge are -- I know there's 4 another notation off the top of my head where it says 5 Carson's busy and Mark Wright is chairing meeting and we 6 -- we discuss certain things. 7 But I don't know -- I don't know if there 8 was or there wasn't. It -- it would seem to me that -- 9 that there would be a note that we were meeting. 10 Q: You say, "it would seem to me." I 11 want to know -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- what your evidence is. Are you 14 saying that unless it says 'meeting' there isn't a 15 meeting? 16 A: Well, sir, again I told you that. 17 Q: I just want to know what your 18 position is. 19 A: Yeah, I appreciate that and I'm 20 trying to answer your question, is that I don't have an 21 independent recollection. And you're taking me to the 22 scribe notes and you're asking me to interpret things as 23 a result of what I'm reading right here this morning and 24 -- and that's what I'm doing, I'm answering your question 25 with respect to what it is I'm interpreting here.
341 So I'm trying to be as helpful as I can. 2 Q: All right. Let's -- let's have you 3 be as helpful as you can. 4 Look at pages 36, 35, 34. All right. 5 Page 31 at the top it says a briefing meeting was held. 6 A: 31? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Sure. Yeah. 9 Q: Now, however, in my quick scan I 10 don't see any reference to -- to a meeting for many pages 11 thereafter. 12 Am I to take it -- can you help us out 13 then, should I understand that there was no meeting after 14 the 11:04 meeting, however long that held? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Millar? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, Inspector Carson 18 when he was -- testified, talked about, to the best of 19 his recollection, what he thought were briefings, what he 20 thought were meetings and -- and there -- there are 21 references in the scribe notes to meetings -- meetings 22 being concluded. But there are other references in the 23 scribe notes that John Carson said were briefings where 24 it doesn't say that. 25 So that he went -- I went through --
351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- with the man 3 actually who the scribe was following around and I'm not 4 -- frankly it's not helpful to simply ask this -- this 5 Witness to interpret these documents when we've had John 6 Carson give his evidence and probably the best evidence 7 as to when the meetings were and weren't. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 9 already said he couldn't recall a specific point that you 10 were asking him about, but so far his evidence hasn't 11 been all that helpful in terms of what you're trying to-- 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm -- I'm -- 13 if -- if Mr. Wright's -- I'm trying to understand whether 14 Mr. Wright's -- Inspector Wright's position was that 15 there was no meetings or I'm trying to clarify that or 16 whether he's contradicting the evidence that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- Mr. -- that 19 Inspector Carson put forward. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, the 21 sense I'm getting is that he's doing his best to answer 22 the questions, given that he can't recall the specific 23 matters that you are asking him about. 24 Yes...? 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: If it's of some
361 assistance to My Friend, I've never heard Inspector 2 Wright say that there was no meeting. He's just saying, 3 I can't be confident about it -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- in the absence of a 6 notation. And I'm not sure how much farther My Friend 7 can go. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 9 said that two (2) or three (3) times already, too; that's 10 the point. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 13 Q: I'm just trying to understand what -- 14 what Inspector Wright's position is. So I -- okay, I 15 take -- as -- am I correct in understanding that you 16 accept that meetings may be happening during this period, 17 even though the notes don't say it? 18 A: Am I prepared to accept that? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I think -- well, I know -- my 21 evidence, sir, is I can only be as helpful as my 22 recollection is. So as to, you know, I don't know 23 whether or not there were meetings that aren't in here, 24 because again, I'm just going with -- with what I see in 25 the notes.
371 So if somebody else said there were 2 meetings, as in Inspector Carson, then, you know, I'm not 3 -- I'm not disagreeing. 4 If Inspector Carson said there was a 5 meeting, I'm certainly not disagreeing with that; if 6 that's helpful. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Well, going back to page 38 of the 12 typewritten notes -- 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And at the same time, page 438 of the 18 handwritten notes. 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: The comment: 24 "Premier's no different treatment from 25 anybody else."
381 And you early -- earlier agreed that you 2 had no reason to doubt that you heard that? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Now, the comment by Inspector Carson, 5 "Premier's no different treatment," doesn't indicate to 6 whom it was made. 7 Do you change your answer that you heard 8 him make that comment? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 10 don't understand the question. Perhaps the Witness does, 11 but I'm not sure. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. I'm 13 just trying -- Inspector Wright described how these notes 14 worked, in his view. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And I just want 17 to know whether the -- the -- whether Inspector Wright, 18 who previously said he accepted that he heard this 19 comment being made -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he -- 21 I'm not sure that he went that far. His evidence was, I 22 don't recall this statement. That was his testimony. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now... 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right.
391 Well, perhaps if it wasn't clear then I should revisit 2 that, because I think the record will show that he 3 accepted that -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He could -- 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- heard that. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 7 not sure if he accepted it or couldn't deny it. I don't 8 know the exact wording; I don't have an exact 9 recollection of it, but I do recall him saying, I don't 10 recall this statement being made. 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. All he can -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I made a 13 note of that. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: He said he took no 15 issue -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he took 17 no issue -- 18 MR. MARK SANDLER: But he can't -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's as 20 high -- 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- remember -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as it 23 could go. He took no issue with it, because he couldn't 24 recall it. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: He -- my
401 recollection is -- I think the record was, I asked him 2 about whether he had any reason to doubt it and whether 3 he had any reason to doubt the accuracy of these notes 4 and -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, so -- 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Let me 7 revisit -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just not 9 sure how much you can make of that. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: If it's not 11 clear, Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 15 Q: Can I -- should I take it, Inspector 16 Wright, that incident commander Carson made the comment 17 from these notes: 18 "Premier's no different treatment from 19 anybody else." 20 But we can't tell from these notes to whom 21 he made that comment. Is that what you -- the best of 22 your knowledge? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
411 A: Yeah, I would agree with you. It 2 doesn't say who -- to whom he was speaking. But it looks 3 like Korosec is again, spoke just prior to that and I 4 spoke just after that. 5 Q: Well, I -- it looks -- from the 6 handwritten notes it looks like Kobayashi did just before 7 that. 8 A: Oh, is that -- okay. I -- I have 9 KOS. I thought that was Korosec. Okay. Well, either 10 one -- 11 Q: So -- 12 A: -- one or the other I guess. 13 Q: Okay. So just so I understand what I 14 can take from these to the best of your knowledge, it's 15 fair for me to conclude that Kobayashi and... 16 A: Me. 17 Q: Kobayashi and you were present when 18 Inspector Carson made that comment; is that fair? 19 A: Well -- no, I didn't say that. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I said that the scribe notes, again, 22 I don't know have an independent recollection though on 23 this when he said -- of this, I don't take issue that 24 Carson did say this but the people -- the initials before 25 and after Carson's statement are -- now that's either
421 Kobayashi or Korosec, and I think you're right, I think 2 it is Kobayashi, and then me after that. 3 So, I mean, I don't know what timeframe 4 we're talking here but it would -- you know, that -- 5 that's who bracket -- those are the people who bracket 6 that piece of information. 7 Q: Right. So let me just understand 8 where I'm at. We -- you -- you don't disagree -- you 9 accept based on these notes that Incident Commander 10 Carson said in the command post "Premier, no different 11 treatment from anyone else", right? 12 A: I don't take any issue with the fact 13 that he said that. 14 Q: And because of the way the scribe 15 notes works, you accept that, don't you? 16 A: I think I answered that. 17 Q: Or you just -- can you answer it 18 again because it wasn't clear to everybody apparently. 19 You accept that the Premier said -- 20 A: I take no issue with the fact that 21 Carson said that. I don't have an independent 22 recollection of him saying that but I take no issue with 23 the fact that Inspector Carson said that. That's as far 24 as I can go. 25 Q: All right. Okay. Well just so we --
431 we're clear -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- because the last time we went 4 through this the Commissioner didn't -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 8 Q: -- and perhaps others and I -- I may 9 have been mistaken about this. Just so I understand -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- you know how scribes work, right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And you've seen their notes? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: I'm suggesting to you as a 16 practical -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- matter -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- that you, in fact, accept that 21 what the scribe wrote is what Carson said, right? You 22 accept that don't you? 23 A: Sir, -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- you've asked me that three ti --
441 it's the same answer. It's going to be the same answer. 2 I don't have an independent recollection. I don't take 3 issue with the fact that Carson said that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 THE WITNESS: I -- I can't go beyond that 6 because I just don't remember. If I did, I'd tell you. 7 So it's very difficult for me to say I accept that 8 because I don't remember. And I don't know -- I don't 9 even know who the scribe -- who is writing this. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 12 Q: Okay. All right. But if I -- okay. 13 A: I think it's basically, you know, 14 semantics is it not? Is it not pretty well the same 15 thing? 16 Q: It is -- it is semantic. Practically 17 speaking you don't -- 18 A: Yes. Yeah. 19 Q: -- you accept that, don't you? 20 A: I -- I take no issue with it, that's 21 right. 22 Q: All right. I'll -- I'll have to use 23 those words from now on and it'll lengthen my cross- 24 examination. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well --
451 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to be as 2 accurate as I can for you, sir. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: All right. Well just to be accurate, 6 I mean I said, I said, practically speaking. Practically 7 speaking you accept that that's what the Premier -- what 8 Carson said, don't you? 9 A: Practically speaking, I take no issue 10 with the fact that Carson said this. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 12 think we need to go over this again, Mr. Klippenstein, 13 really. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: All right, all right. Now the other 17 -- now I am very interested in this -- 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: -- Inspector Wright, because what we 20 -- what we have is the Premier's opinion on this incident 21 being expressed in the command post -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- and I just want to know, does what 24 you've just said recently and the description of these 25 notes --
461 A: Right. 2 Q: -- mean that you are now telling me 3 you won't agree that you heard Carson say that? 4 A: I don't understand your question. 5 Q: Okay. Do you -- well, let me 6 rephrase that. Do you agree that you heard Carson say 7 that? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 9 we're right back where we were. His evidence was he 10 doesn't recall this and he doesn't take issue with the 11 fact that it was said. We're right back where we were. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I -- 13 THE WITNESS: Perhaps, sir, as I said in 14 my evidence in-chief, I was certainly aware that the 15 Premier's office or the -- or Toronto as I put it, was 16 alive to the fact that we had an incident at Ipperwash. 17 I was certainly aware -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: That's not what I'm asking. It's not 21 my question, all right. I want to know the specifics. 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Now this -- can you describe to me 24 the command post and how -- and -- and can you describe 25 for me --
471 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- where Inspector Carson would have 3 been possibly when he said this? 4 A: I have no idea. 5 Q: All right. How big was the Command 6 Post room where -- where Inspector Carson likely said 7 this? 8 A: It would be akin to a large motor 9 home. 10 Q: Was it in a motor home? 11 A: No, it's -- it's square. It's -- 12 Q: It's a trailer? 13 A: -- it's a trailer, yeah. 14 Q: Right. Ten (10) feet by twelve (12) 15 feet? 16 A: I wouldn't want to say it's -- you're 17 -- it would be bigger than that I think. 18 Q: All right. One (1) room? 19 A: No, there were two (2) -- well, I'd 20 say three (3) areas, two (2) rooms. There was the 21 Communication area at the -- what I call the nose of the 22 trailer. And then there was a general meeting area in 23 the middle of the trailer. 24 And then there was a small room, and it 25 either had a door or a portable sliding wall that you'd
481 see in a gym or something. I think it was a door though, 2 a very small room at the back. 3 Q: And John Carson was probably in the 4 general meeting area when he said this just from the 5 nature of the room do you -- and do you agree with that, 6 from the -- 7 A: No. I -- I -- how -- I would have no 8 idea where -- 9 Q: He would -- he would -- 10 A: -- he would be. He could be in the 11 back and they could come to see him or he could have been 12 up at the front -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- you know, or he could have been 15 out on -- there was a little step out front at the 16 Command Post, he could have been standing -- you know he 17 could have been anywhere in there. 18 Q: All right. And do you recall anybody 19 commenting on Inspector Carson's mentioning of the 20 Premier's views? 21 A: Well, I don't have a recollection of 22 him making those views so I wouldn't -- you know I 23 wouldn't -- I wouldn't recall anybody making comment 24 about it so -- 25 Q: Well, it doesn't necessarily follow.
491 I just want to know, did anybody in -- on the 5th, before 2 or after or during, even if, you know, apart from hearing 3 these views, say something about -- 4 A: Not that I recall, no. 5 Q: All right. And... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Had you ever, in your career, 10 participated in an incident where the Premier's views on 11 that incident were communicated to the command team or to 12 any of the commanders? 13 A: I'd say no. 14 Q: No? 15 A: Not to my recollection. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, at this -- at this point in the 21 notes, again on page 38 -- 22 A: Yes? 23 Q: -- we have Les Kobayashi advising 24 that they're having someone search title on the land, 25 right?
501 A: Yes, I see that. 2 Q: Now, how often and for what purposes, 3 to your knowledge, was Les Kobayashi in the Command Post? 4 A: How often was he in there? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I have a, you know, a general 7 recollection that he was in there, I would say quite a 8 bit, my recollection is. 9 Q: So he would -- he wasn't based in the 10 Command Post, was he, at the time? 11 A: No, no. 12 Q: No. 13 A: No. 14 Q: So he would come and participate as 15 appropriate and then leave, right? 16 A: Yeah, or -- yeah or he'd bring 17 information, whatever, yeah. 18 Q: All right. And if I look at this 19 period in the notes we have, on page 38 at the top: 20 "Les Kobayashi advising." 21 Then the blank, referring to the Premier, 22 right? Do you see that? 23 A: The blank? 24 Q: There's a blank on page 38. 25 A: Oh, you mean it's -- it's -- sure.
511 Okay, yeah, I understand. 2 Q: And then we have in the next 3 paragraph John Carson. Then we have in the next 4 paragraph yourself. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Then we have in the next paragraph 7 Les Kobayashi? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Then Carson, then Kobayashi? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Right? So we have three (3) 12 different paragraphs ascribing comments to Kobayashi, 13 right? 14 A: Yeah, portions of those paragraphs, 15 yeah. 16 Q: Right. And would you agree that, 17 from your knowledge of how these meetings or discussions 18 or conversations, whatever they are, take place, whether 19 they're not meetings or not -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- and how these notes work, it 22 appears that Kobayashi was there throughout that period 23 in one continuous presence, right? 24 That he speaks three (3) different times, 25 interspersed with other persons' comments?
521 A: Well, again, I don't -- I don't have 2 an independent recollection, but I take no issue with 3 that, because his -- his information is, you know, there 4 are statements attributed to him in -- in and amongst 5 those paragraphs, so that would appear to be so. 6 Q: So -- so that would appear to be one 7 continuous presence of Kobayashi and the scribe, right? 8 A: I -- I couldn't say. It appears that 9 he's there for -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Kobayashi -- what 11 we're doing is just asking the witness -- why don't we 12 ask the witness what the witness knows or doesn't know 13 and not try to interpret the scribe notes? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Kobayashi was here 16 and gave evidence. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And could have been 19 asked and I believe may have been asked the question as 20 to how long he was there. 21 Mr. Carson was here and gave evidence, and 22 with respect -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now Mr. 24 Wright is here -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we will -- you
531 know, Mr. Wright can -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- give evidence as to 4 what he did -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- what he didn't do, 7 what he knows, what he doesn't know, but it's not, with 8 respect, helpful to have him try to guess at what the -- 9 the scribe notes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Especially 11 when he's saying that he can't recall at lot of this, so. 12 I understand what you're trying to do, I'm just not 13 sure -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: With the 15 greatest respect -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we're 17 getting anywhere or -- 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- to My 19 Friend -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- how 21 helpful it is. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- Mr. Millar, 23 he's -- he's -- he's wrong in saying that Mr. Wright 24 doesn't recall. Mr. Wright just said he had -- he had 25 some information about how Kobayashi was in the command
541 post and My Friend, Mr. Millar, is perhaps overreaching 2 in saying that he doesn't have any knowledge. 3 I'm trying to find out what knowledge he 4 has and what he can't -- and simply because another 5 witness had it, doesn't mean I can't also ask this 6 witness. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 8 understand. We're letting you go a bit, but your first 9 question was something to the effect of how often Mr. 10 Kobayashi was in the command post and he said quite a 11 bit. 12 So that was your introduction to that. 13 Beyond that, I'm not sure how helpful his evidence has 14 been -- 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- with 17 respect to Kobayashi's presence. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Inspector 19 Wright obviously participated in conversations that were 20 taken by the scribe on numerous occasions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- Inspector 25 Wright has some knowledge, from personal experience, how
551 the scribe note taking works. 2 I am trying to understand, and it's a 3 small step from that to asking since Kobayashi was taking 4 notes of three (3) points here, what that means. 5 And I'm trying to understand what, if 6 anything, we can draw from these notes; perhaps nothing. 7 But -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It hasn't 9 been very helpful so far -- 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: No. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but I 12 appreciate your effort. I don't want to stop you if you 13 think you're -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm well 15 intentioned -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- making 17 some progress. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- if nothing 19 else. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: Well, Inspector Wright, let me -- now 25 you -- you said that, if I recall, that the three (3)
561 appearances of Mr. Kobayashi's comments here suggest that 2 that was one continuous note taking episode. Have I got 3 that right? 4 A: I didn't say that. 5 Q: All right. What did you say? 6 A: I said -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 8 sure, Mr. Klippenstein, how helpful this is. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I would 11 be grateful if you would move along. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because I'm 14 not finding anything of value coming out of this so far. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This aspect 18 of it. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. No, I'm 20 just trying to understand -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- from this 23 witness, the reference to the Premier's intentions -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I got that. 25
571 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: Yes. No, and Inspector Wright, if I 3 can... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Let me ask about the fact that the 8 reference to the Premier and the Premier's views was 9 recorded in handwriting, but apparently not transcribed 10 into the typewritten version. 11 Now, you've had scribes taking -- taking 12 notes of your conversations on numerous times, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you know of occasions when you 15 have said something that you thought was important that 16 was taken down in handwritten -- in handwriting and not 17 transcribed into typing? You don't -- 18 A: You know, I don't -- I don't know how 19 I could answer that, sir. I, not to -- you know. 20 Q: Not to your knowledge? 21 A: Not -- 22 Q: All right. Okay. 23 A: I don't -- I don't know whether or 24 not -- to be honest with you, I -- I just -- I couldn't 25 say one way or -- I wouldn't even want to say not to my
581 knowledge. You know, I just -- I wouldn't know the 2 answer to that. 3 I -- I can tell you that the scribes are - 4 - and my recollection is Inspector Carson's or Deputy 5 Commissioner Carson spoke about this when he was here is 6 that, you know, at times there were stenos who were doing 7 the scribing so you're going to get a little more 8 accurate and then at times you were getting police 9 officers who were doing the scribing who are, you know, 10 jacks of all trades and masters of none, I guess, and 11 we've been -- enrolled a police officer to take the 12 scribe notes. So, you know, this is a blow-by-blow 13 account. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: A scribe note isn't a blow- 16 by- blow account of exactly every word that is taken. 17 And somebody else is doing the typing, 18 it's not -- the person who is doing the scribe is not 19 doing the typing. I mean, I -- I don't know who that is 20 and whether or not they would have felt that that was 21 important. 22 I mean, I think it's somewhat of a 23 subjective thing, because I -- my recollection here from 24 my understanding here is that these handwritten notes 25 were not typed verbatim. I mean, I -- I myself have
591 found stuff in here that is, were in the handwritten, 2 that were not in the typewritten version of the scribe 3 notes, so. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 6 Q: All right. Okay. Now, I want to 7 move onto the next instance but -- so you... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You don't, based on the -- the order 12 of people's appearance in the typewritten notes -- 13 A: Typewritten notes, yes? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: -- you wouldn't disagree that you 18 heard Carson make that comment about the Premier's 19 intention; is that -- have I now correctly -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 21 Mr. Klippenstein, is that not the same question that 22 you've asked several times? 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or is a 25 different question?
601 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: It -- it's 2 similar but I don't think it's identical and I'm -- 3 before I move on I just want to make sure that -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 5 you've exhausted that area, that question. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 8 Q: All right. All right. Let me move 9 on then to the next question I have about the Premier's 10 desires and involvement. 11 And if you could turn with me to some 12 other notes from the 5th and these are at Tab 18 which is 13 the typed notes, page 40. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And if you could hold a finger there 16 and turn to Tab 19 which is the typewritten notes -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- at page 446. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 19 is 20 the handwritten notes. 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, at page 23 446. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN:
611 Q: Yes, and 446 on the handwritten notes 2 which are Exhibit P-427 and page 39 of the typed notes -- 3 A: Page 39. 4 Q: -- which are Exhibit P-426. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: If I turn to page 40 of the hand -- 11 of the typewritten notes and if I look down the various 12 paragraphs of page 40 I see various names. I see -- 13 let's just go through it. I see Seltzer at the top, 14 right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I see Vervoort of MNR, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I see Korosec, right? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: I see Carson, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I see Dennis down a few paragraphs? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I see yourself, correct? 25 A: Yes.
621 Q: And then at the very bottom I see -- 2 the sentence says: 3 "John Carson advised that the next 4 meeting to be held at 18:15 hours, 5 before new crowd comes in." 6 Right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Would you -- and I'm going to try to 9 be practical and expeditious in my question, would you 10 accept that page 40, it's notes taken during a command 11 team meeting? 12 A: No, because I don't ever recall Ed 13 Vervoort -- Vervoort being at a -- at a command -- like 14 at a meeting. I don't remember him being party to any of 15 our meetings. 16 I stand to be corrected, but I just don't 17 recall him being there. I recall Les being involved, but 18 I don't remember Mr. Vervoort being involved. 19 Q: Well, just so we can clarify that 20 point. If you could retrieve the black binder of 21 supplementary documents that I provided to you. 22 A: Sure. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
631 Q: And turn to page 24, Commissioner, at 2 I believe you -- you have identified it in front of you 3 there. 4 Page 24, I apologize, does not have tabs, 5 but it's got -- 6 A: No problem. 7 Q: -- stamped page numbers on the top -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And that is -- 13 A: I'm -- I'm there, yeah. 14 Q: You got it. That is Exhibit P-1008-- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just one 16 minute. Yes, Ms. Jones? 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, I -- Mr. 18 Commissioner. I'm just trying to figure out what we're 19 looking it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 21 don't have a copy of this -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: It's very hard to 23 follow -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so you'll 25 have to refer to the document number.
641 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I was about to 2 do that, yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1007879; is 4 that the document? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's the run 6 -- that's the one. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Exhibit P-1008, 9 thank you. 10 And just for description, this is a 11 digression with respect to a point the Witness has 12 raised. These appear to be, and I believe the evidence 13 will show, the notes of Ed Vervoort and they're described 14 -- self-described as 18:15 briefing notes, September 5th, 15 1995. 16 And they describe various discussions 17 which also roughly correspond to other people's notes. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: Now, does this refresh your memory 21 about whether or not Ed Vervoort participated in command 22 post meetings? 23 A: Well, I'm going to need some help 24 here. These are Ed Vervoort's notes, are you telling me? 25 Q: Yes.
651 A: Okay. And I'm on page 24, right? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Okay. And it says, "18:15 briefing", 4 correct? 5 Q: Which is different time period than 6 the one I started with, but the point I'm asking is, 7 these notes appear to be Vervoort's notes of an 18:15 8 briefing -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- and I'm just asking whether this 11 refreshes your memory as to whether or not Ed Vervoort 12 participated in briefing meetings? 13 A: No, because I just -- I -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I appreciate the help you're 16 attempting to give me, but I just don't -- I don't recall 17 him physically -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- being at a meeting. 20 Q: All right, fine. Let me go back to 21 page 40 of the command post -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- and there's a long -- I'm now back 24 to Tab 18 which is page -- Exhibit P-426 -- 25 A: Right.
661 Q: -- and I'm looking at pages 39 and 2 40. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And at page 39, the entry entitled 5 16:45, which is 4:45 in the afternoon on September 5th, 6 correct? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Runs over into page 40 and goes for 9 the whole page and at the bottom, John Carson, as I said 10 before, "John Carson advised that the next meeting to be 11 held at 18:15 hours", right? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. And so you don't accept 14 as I understand it, that what appears on page 40 is a 15 meeting? 16 A: No. First I said I didn't remember 17 Vervoort, but I -- you know, you've been helpful with the 18 note. 19 I still don't remember him being there, 20 but it would appear obvious that he was at some of our 21 meetings; I don't have any independent recollection. 22 So with that in mind, it would -- it would 23 appear -- you know, it would appear that this looks like 24 a meeting now, starting at 16:45 and ending, you know, I 25 don't know, sometime around 18:15 or something like that.
671 Q: Well, just -- 2 A: Well, no, that can't be -- 3 Q: -- on your last comment -- 4 A: -- that can't be right. 5 Q: No. It doesn't end at 18:15. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: It ends -- 8 A: 17:02 is the next time. So that -- 9 that seems to be reasonable to me. 10 Q: Right. So -- so it appears that that 11 is a description -- 12 A: A meeting. 13 Q: -- the notes of a command post 14 meeting. 15 A: Yeah, I think so, yeah. 16 Q: All right. So now going back to page 17 40 -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- the last full paragraph -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- of the typed notes says: 22 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 23 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 24 Premier." 25 A: Right.
681 Q: "There is to be a press release by 2 the Solicitor General stating that this 3 is not an Indian issue, it is an MNR 4 and a Provincial issue." 5 Right? 6 A: Right. Yeah, I see that. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: If you could turn in the sup -- just 12 keep that available but -- 13 A: Sure. 14 Q: -- turn in the Supplementary Binder 15 that we prepared -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- to page 5. 18 A: Yes, sir, I'm there. 19 Q: And that is a press release, the 20 evidence suggests, by Mr. Beaubien with handwriting taken 21 on the phone from Bill King, the Premier's Executive 22 Assistant that says: 23 "MNR issue not an Indian issue. It is 24 a Provincial Park issue." 25 Now, have you seen this document or those
691 -- those notations before? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, I 3 think other counsel don't know the document that you're-- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah, I'm -- I'm lost, 5 Mr. Commissioner. If we could at least know what the 6 document number is then we can find it, thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 9 Q: Yes, I'm sorry, thank you, thank you. 10 That document is Inquiry Document 12000067. To repeat 11 that, it's 12000067 which is again a -- it's part of 12 Exhibit P-961 I believe, and is a press release, I 13 believe in draft form, from Marcel Beaubien with his 14 handwriting, according to the evidence, taken on the 15 phone from Bill King, the Premier's Executive Assistant 16 which says: 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. The evidence says 18 it was a caucus liaison person. It wasn't his Executive 19 Assistant. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm just -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've 22 forgotten. Is this the press release that wasn't sent? 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm sorry? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this the 25 press release that wasn't sent?
701 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 3 to make sure I -- 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, yes, yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: I believe there is evidence that he 8 was the Executive Assistant or at least Government phone 9 directory, but anyway I -- I appreciate My Friend's 10 assistance in that regard. 11 Now this -- these notations from Mr. 12 Beaubien, I, you know, I take it -- I don't know -- did 13 you ever see those before? 14 A: This is the first time I've ever read 15 this release. 16 Q: All right. Let me go back to the 17 notes. The hand -- the type written notes at Tab 18. 18 A: Right. Page 40? 19 Q: Page 40. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Now there's wording there that we 22 looked at that says: 23 "This is not an Indian issue, it is an 24 MNR and a Provincial issue." 25 Right?
711 A: Where are you, sir? 2 Q: I'm now -- there's a -- 3 A: Page 40. 4 Q: Page 40, the last paragraph -- 5 A: The last paragraph. 6 Q: -- the last two (2) lines. 7 A: Okay, got it, yeah. 8 Q: "This is not an Indian issue, it is 9 an MNR issue and a Provincial issue." 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Right. Now do you have any 12 recollection of that being stated in the meeting? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No. And I believe I asked you about 15 this, that given the way the scribe system works, 16 practically speaking, you accept that that was said in 17 the meeting, right? 18 A: Yeah, I take no issue that that was 19 said. And -- and I'm there. 20 Q: Yes. Now -- and again, we have at 21 the meeting we have Sergeant Korosec, the head of the 22 ERT, right? 23 A: That looks to be. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: Again, without -- I don't recall this
721 meeting but it would appear so by the -- by the notes, 2 assuming that we're correct and this is a meeting -- 3 Q: Right. And we have -- 4 A: -- taking place. 5 Q: -- at the top of the page, Sergeant 6 Seltzer being there at the meeting? 7 A: Same answer, yeah. 8 Q: Right. And Sergeant Seltzer was the 9 head of the negotiating part of Operation Maple; is that 10 right? 11 A: Yeah, yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. So what we have here is the 13 head negotiator and the head of the ERT and yourself 14 being advised by the Incident Commander that there will 15 be a press release from the Government saying this is not 16 an Indian issue, right? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: That's what it appears to be, by 21 reading these notes, yeah. 22 Q: Right. And that's -- that's around 23 3:45 in the afternoon -- sorry 4:45 -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 25 4:45 --
731 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 3 Q: -- in the afternoon, or slightly 4 thereafter, right? 5 A: Some time after, I would suggest, 6 yes. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: It would appear that's -- that's the 9 case. 10 Q: All right. Then I would like to go 11 later that afternoon again, looking at -- at potential 12 references to -- to the Government's views. And I'd ask 13 you to turn to... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: ...Tab 19. 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Which is the handwritten notes again. 23 A moment's indulgence here, if I may. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
741 Q: To page 450 of Tab 19. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Do you see that? And I just want to 7 draw your attention to the middle of the page, some 8 comments by John Carson. 9 I'll read the whole comments and then I'll 10 ask you some questions about the -- the context of these. 11 Inspector Carson says: 12 "If someone can get it, do it tonight. 13 bring here to office. Skinner be part 14 of command team. Heat from political 15 side. Made strong comments in the 16 House. Court injunction moving along. 17 Keep tonight quiet. Keep on 18 checkpoints wherever you are, but 19 logistics -- let logistics know." 20 Right, that seems to be what it says, 21 correct? 22 A: Yes, I would agree. 23 Q: And if you could just keep your 24 finger at that, turning to the corresponding typewritten 25 notes...
751 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: ...which is at page 41. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 5 has been amended where it says "16:07," it should be 6 18:07. Is that correct, Mr. Millar? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's correct. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's correct. 9 Thank you, Commissioner, I was going to mention that. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 11 Thank you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 14 Q: Now, do you have that, page 41 of the 15 typewritten notes? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: And we saw earlier in the notes that 18 Inspector Carson referred to there would be another 19 briefing meeting at 18:15, right? 20 A: Right, at the top of the page, yeah. 21 Q: And would you agree this appears to 22 be that briefing meeting? 23 A: Where? Starting where? 24 Q: Okay. Let's go back -- 25 A: At 18:07?
761 Q: Yes. 2 A: Okay. Well, if I could just have a 3 minute. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes, I would agree with you that it 8 appears to be a meeting because at -- if you look on page 9 43 it says "6:32" and I'm sure that's 18:32. I would 10 think it was 18:32: 11 "Inspectors left, meeting ended." 12 So it would appear that this is a meeting. 13 Q: Right. And we look at -- and just to 14 keep the -- the notes correct, we looked at the 15 handwritten notes at -- at page 450. If you look at the 16 handwritten notes at page 448 which is the apparent 17 beginning of the meeting it says 6:07 at the top. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: This is just to make sure we have the 20 handwritten and typewritten notes of the two (2) meetings 21 together, right? Do you see that, Inspector Wright? 22 A: I do. 23 Q: Okay. So -- and... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
771 Q: The comment about, "heat from the 2 political side is missing," from the typewritten notes 3 and I -- I don't need to point out where it is if you -- 4 unless you -- where it's missing, unless you want to have 5 a look at that. 6 A: Well, I'll take your word for it -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- that it's missing. 9 Q: Okay. So -- but what we have here 10 then at about 6:07 is the reference in the scribe notes 11 to the heat from the political side, right? 12 A: In the written scribe notes, right? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: The handwritten scribe notes. And 16 then if you could take the supplementary documents that 17 I've provided and turn again to the document I referred 18 to earlier, which is at page 24 of the supplementary 19 documents, which is Inquiry Document Number 1007879, 20 Exhibit P-1008. 21 A: Page? 22 Q: Page 24 of the supplementary binder. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: And you've seen this before from a 25 few minutes ago.
781 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: Yes, I'm there. 5 Q: All right. And the evidence will 6 show, I believe, that these are the notes of Ed Vervoort 7 for the 18:15 -- he labels it in the 18:15 briefing. 8 And just so we get our references here, go 9 back to the handwritten scribe notes. 10 A: Hmm hmm? 11 Q: We looked at page 450; go to page 12 449. 13 A: Yes? 14 Q: And -- and you see near the bottom 15 under the initials "T.R." a reference to one hundred 16 (100) arrest packages, right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Okay? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then if I turn you over to Ed 21 Vervoort's notes, just for reference, two-thirds of the 22 way down his notes there's also a notation that says: 23 "Arrest packages completed one hundred 24 (100)." 25 Right?
791 A: That's what it says, yes. 2 Q: So it appears to be a similar 3 reference, right? 4 A: It appears to be, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And then on Ed Vervoort's 6 notes, dropping down now to the last bullet point in his 7 notes, they say: 8 "Lots of political pressure. Strong 9 in-house comments by Premier/Solicitor 10 General." 11 Right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Do you see that? 14 A: That's what it says, yeah. 15 Q: And that appears to be the same 16 reference that occurs in the scribe's handwritten notes, 17 with slightly different wording, right? 18 A: Yes, it appears to be. 19 Q: All right. And... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And again, what we have here is a -- 24 a Command Post meeting at just after 6:00 p.m. on the 25 5th. And if I look at the typewritten notes -- going to
801 page 41 let me just go through the people who appear to 2 be at the hand -- at the meeting and see if you agree. 3 A: Page 41? Yes, sir. 4 Q: We have on page 41, Richardson, 5 right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yourself, right? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Bell, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Seltzer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And now I'm several paragraphs down 14 on page 42, Kobayashi, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Korosec? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And of course Carson, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And -- and then Dennis further down 24 as well, right? 25 A: Right.
811 Q: And turning to page 43 we have 2 Linton, right? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes, his name's there. 7 Q: In fact it makes sense, because this 8 is the transfer meeting where he -- where he's soon to 9 take over for the night, right? So it makes sense? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Sure. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Hmm -- 18 A: I don't know at what point -- again, 19 I don't rec -- have an independent recollection. I don't 20 know what time Linton came into this meeting. He's just 21 at the bottom of this, because -- the only reason I 22 pause, sir, is that it says, "Inspector Linton told 23 members of command that he wanted to have a meeting at 24 21:00 hours." 25 Well, the people that you've referred to
821 in this meeting are the day shift people, for lack of a 2 better term, and now Linton's talking about he wants -- 3 he's told members of command that he wanted to have a 4 meeting at 21:00 hours. 5 Well, it wouldn't make any sense for him 6 to be telling us that, we weren't going to be there. So 7 I'm just a little -- I'm not so sure whether or not 8 Linton was there, because it doesn't -- that statement 9 doesn't seem to make sense within the flow of that 10 document, if -- if you catch my meaning. 11 Like, it would appear that he's talking to 12 the -- his replace -- our replacements, I guess, the day 13 shift replacements, it would appear to me, because why 14 would he tell us that he's going to meet at nine o'clock? 15 Q: All right, fair enough. Let's just 16 maybe pause about that. 17 But with -- setting aside Linton for the 18 moment, I've listed off, I think, eight (8) -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- eight (8) people who would be in 21 that meeting. 22 A: Looks that way, yeah. 23 Q: Right? And they would have, it's 24 fair to conclude, heard Inspector Carson make the 25 comments about political pressure and political heat, as
831 one scribe records it; is that fair? 2 A: I think that's fair, yes. 3 Q: Right. Now, again, do you have any 4 understanding, from your own knowledge, why the incident 5 commander was making comments about strong political 6 pressure from the Premier in a command post meeting? 7 A: Do I have any -- 8 Q: Do you have any understanding or did 9 you at the time from your -- now or then, as to why the 10 incident commander would do that? 11 A: Well, I can't speak about then, 12 because I don't remember him saying that -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: But I can speak about now, if that's 15 helpful. 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: If that's what you prefer or that's 18 if you want that answer. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: Do you? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Is I suspect he was just providing us 23 with a general overview of what he knew. 24 Q: And -- all right. And would you 25 agree with me that that -- that the -- that the fact that
841 there appears to be strong political pressure and strong 2 comments from the Premier, is irrelevant to the 3 professional job that you, as police, should do? 4 A: Is irrelevant to our job? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes, I would agree with that. And -- 7 Q: We wouldn't -- 8 A: -- we ought not to be affected by 9 that type of a comment. 10 Q: And would you agree with me that it 11 shouldn't have been said in that meeting? 12 A: Well, I -- you know I can only speak 13 about me. And my position is, is I don't even recall it 14 being said, so it didn't have a whole lot of impact on me 15 and I wouldn't want to second-guess Inspector Carson, now 16 Deputy Commissioner Carson. 17 Q: Well, I'm -- let me just ask about 18 what you just said. You don't recall it being said, 19 right? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And then you said it didn't have a 22 whole lot of impact on you. Now -- 23 A: Well, I said -- no. What I said was, 24 is that I don't remember it being said, so it didn't have 25 a lot of impact on me.
851 I mean, one goes with the other. It's 2 kind of a circular argument or statement. Had I 3 remembered -- had it made an impact on me, I suspect I 4 would have remembered it. 5 Q: Are you able to state, with absolute 6 confidence, that that comment in that meeting, and the 7 similar comment in the previous meetings that day -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- did not affect your actions in any 10 way? 11 A: Did not affect my personal actions? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I am. 16 Q: So that is your testimony? You can 17 say so with complete confidence today without question; 18 is that your position? 19 A: That -- those comments did not affect 20 my -- the way I did my job; is that what you're asking 21 me? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Commissioner, this may be 25 a good time to take a morning break.
861 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 2 morning break. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for fifteen (15) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 11:56 a.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 12:15 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: Inspector Wright, I'd like to now 17 move to another meeting or apparent meeting. And this 18 one is on the afternoon of September 6th. 19 But before I do that I'd like to just ask 20 you about another few bits of information and for that 21 purpose I'd like to address your attention to Inquiry 22 Document 1012579 which is -- I've just put a page in 23 front of you, it's a page from Exhibit P-536 I believe. 24 I just want to refer to one (1) -- one (1) 25 page of that, and these are the notes of Julie Jai of an
871 Interministerial Command meeting -- or Interministerial 2 Committee meeting on the morning of the 6th that happened 3 in Toronto. 4 And if you look at this one (1) page 5 there's the word 'Tim' a third of the way down on the 6 left; do you see that? 7 A: Sure. Yeah. 8 Q: And that's for your information, 9 based on the evidence, is a reference to comments of Tim 10 McCabe. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And if you go down about halfway, you 13 see best -- just without getting into it too much, Tim is 14 discussing the -- the potential injunction. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And then if you go to the middle of 17 the page there's a bullet point that says "Best case"; do 18 you see that? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: And -- and Tim is -- or Mr. McCabe is 21 noted as saying: 22 "Best case Friday in court." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: The next line has Deb which is 25 according to the evidence, Deb Hutton saying:
881 "Premier feels the longer they occupy 2 it, the more support they'll get." 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Now my question to you is, those two 5 (2) or three (3) lines: 6 "Best case Friday in court. 7 Premier feels the longer they occupy 8 it, the more support they'll get." 9 Do you recall hearing those comments at 10 Ipperwash in your operations there? 11 A: These comments? 12 Q: Yes, yes. 13 A: No. 14 Q: No, all right. Then I'd like to turn 15 your attention to the Commission's document brief before 16 you. Turn to the Tab 18 which is the typewritten command 17 post notes, Exhibit P-426. And turn to Tab -- or sorry, 18 to page 62. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And that has a time notation on the 21 left 14:27 hours which is 2:27 in the afternoon on the 22 6th, right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And it begins by saying: 25 "Briefing Mark Wright leading meeting."
891 Right? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And do you accept that the next page 4 and a half or so are notes of the meeting -- a meeting -- 5 a command post meeting that you essentially led? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: It's hard to say when that meeting 10 ends but certainly I was -- I was -- I take no issue that 11 I was leading a meeting, a briefing at 14:27. I just 12 don't know when that stops. 13 Q: All right. Well, let me direct your 14 attention to the bottom of page 62 -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- which says: 17 "MARK WRIGHT: There will be..." 18 Maybe the -- the previous paragraph for 19 continuity beginning "Ed Vervoort" do you see that? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And does this refresh your memory as 22 to whether Ed Vervoort was participating in that meeting? 23 A: I -- I don't recall him ever being 24 there. 25 Q: All right. Would you accept based on
901 these scribe notes that he -- he was there in that 2 meeting? 3 A: He was there -- yeah. I just don't 4 know when that meeting stops -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: -- you know? He was there at some 7 point in between -- in -- 8 Q: All right. If I can just on that 9 point go to page 63 -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- and just above the notation for 12 14:47 -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- I just want to read that short 15 paragraph which says: 16 "Sergeant Seltzer advises there is no 17 support coming from the reserve. 18 Trevor Richardson advises told by 19 Elders that there is no burial on that 20 part of the land. 21 MARK WRIGHT: Have Sergeant Seltzer 22 check with John Carson if a statement 23 can be made regarding this." 24 Would you agree with me based on the 25 content of that that -- that appears to still be part of
911 the meeting? 2 A: Yeah. It looks like that, yeah. 3 Q: All right. So then going back to the 4 bottom of page 62 -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- or near the bottom the paragraph 7 beginning, "Ed Vervoort"? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: I'd just like to read that. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: "ED VERVOORT: Les Kobayashi is 12 waiting for a copy of the new wording 13 of the affidavit." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: "He will be signing it. Trevor 16 Richardson has given them photographs 17 to substantiate the affidavit. May 18 have it today." 19 And would you agree with me that's a 20 discussion of the possible injunction? 21 A: I would agree with you. 22 Q: And then continuing: 23 "MARK WRIGHT: There will be leg time 24 [which I believe should be a lag time]. 25 Second party has to have an
921 opportunity --" 2 A: To attend. 3 Q: "-- to attend." 4 Right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Those appear to be your comments? 7 A: I agree. 8 Q: Then the next comment says or notes 9 say: 10 "Ed Vervoort feels probably will be 11 Friday." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: "Concerns raised that the longer it 14 goes more may be around." 15 So let me just focus on those comments 16 apparently from Ed Vervoort. 17 Would you agree with me that those appear 18 to be almost identical to the comments recorded in the 19 meeting attributed to Deb Hutton? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, now, 21 just a minute. I see Ms. Perschy coming up. 22 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Commissioner, the 23 difficulty that I have with that, of course we can all 24 read the words. This Witness is in no better position 25 than anybody else in that regard and the sentiment has
931 been raised in -- at other junctures. We've heard 2 evidence about that as well. So frankly I think this 3 question is unfair for this Witness. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tying it to 6 the notes and the specific speakers is a little 7 difficult. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That may be a 9 matter of argument -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and perhaps 12 I will deal with it argument if -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 14 if that's... 15 But in any event you're asking him now if 16 the sentiment was. Well, perhaps I'll let you ask the 17 question again. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, let me -- 19 let me rephrase -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you 21 don't need to refer to the specific language, you can put 22 it in your own words because he has no -- he wasn't at 23 this meeting. He doesn't know what was said at this 24 meeting. 25
941 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: Well, let me -- let me address it 3 this way and as a -- as a hypothetical question and a 4 reasonable one (1) if I may. 5 Would it concern you if as the -- as the 6 -- the participant and Chair of this Command Post 7 briefing, if what Mr. Vervoort is describing to the 8 meeting is the wishes of the Premier as described by Deb 9 Hutton earlier that morning and its being reported right 10 into the Command Post? 11 A: You're -- you're asking -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 13 that that's a good way to put that question. I don't 14 know if that's a fair way to put that question. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, my -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And -- 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- my -- my 18 question relates to the significance for Mr. -- for 19 Inspector Wright as the -- as an officer and the 20 presiding officer at this meeting, the information that 21 may have originated from Ms. Hutton of the Premier's 22 office, being reported in the command post meeting. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's 24 probably a way that you can ask this question that won't 25 be objectionable, but I'm just not sure that you've done
951 it the right way. 2 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: My concern -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 4 Perschy? 5 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: -- is the way My 6 Friend is raising it. The -- the assumption seems to be 7 that these concerns are being raised by Ed Vervoort. I 8 don't read that in these notes. 9 So, I mean, I appreciate that he's raising 10 it as a hypothetical, but it doesn't necessarily follow 11 from the notes. 12 If he wants to ask a hypothetical -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry -- 14 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: -- he can ask a 15 hypothetical. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 17 quarrelling with the interpretation of -- 18 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the log 20 notes? 21 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes, I am, yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The scribe 23 notes. 24 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I think it's unfair to 25 be putting it in -- in conjunction with the notes as if
961 that's the correct interpretation, given that this 2 witness doesn't have -- doesn't have a great recollection 3 of specifically what was said or who said it. And I have 4 a concern with a hypothetical being raised -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: -- in this fashion. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Let me try the 9 hypothetical in a different way. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 12 Q: If -- would it concern you, Inspector 13 Wright, if the concerns and wishes of the Premier were 14 being communicated into your command post meeting through 15 the MNR chain by an MNR employee who raised them in the 16 meeting? 17 A: This is a hypothetical question? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Would it concern me, at the time? At 20 the time in 1995, are you talking about? 21 Q: For starters, yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 23 how helpful this is. I'm not sure how helpful this 24 exercise is, Mr. Klippenstein. 25 I don't know what that -- where that
971 hypothetical leads or contributes in any way. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I'll 3 withdraw the hypothetical question, then, Commissioner. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 8 Q: Inspector Wright, do you have any 9 recollection of Ed Vervoort, at all, participating around 10 the command post? 11 A: No, I don't -- I don't ever remember 12 him being there. I remember Les being there, but I don't 13 recall Mr. Vervoort ever -- I just don't recall seeing 14 him there. 15 I dealt with Les because of my position as 16 the -- the -- you know the, I guess, the guy on the 17 ground, as it were, prior to September. And I knew he 18 was the Park Superintendent and, you know, I would see 19 him off and on. 20 So I knew who Les was. I really didn't -- 21 that was the MNR person, as far as I was concerned. I 22 think Vervoort -- was Vervoort -- he was Kobayashi's 23 supervisor, I take it. 24 Q: I believe not. 25 A: Oh, okay, well.
981 Q: I think he was a, I believe, a 2 compliance officer of some sort, with MNR. 3 But you don't recall him at all? 4 A: I -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 6 did not -- 7 THE WITNESS: No, I just -- I don't 8 recall him being at any meetings. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I don't recall, no. 13 Q: All right. Do you recall at any of 14 these meetings, any MNR -- well, let me take a step back. 15 Was there any MNR employee, other than 16 Kobayashi, that you recall? 17 A: Not that I recall, sir -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- no. 20 Q: Do you recall Kobayashi transmitting 21 or discussing in these meetings, command post meetings, 22 information that was apparently from -- from Toronto? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I don't take issue with the -- the
991 scribe notes, but I don't have an independent 2 recollection of what he was saying in regards to that 3 specific item, eleven (11) years later. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Just, I guess for clarification and I 9 think it may follow from what you've just said, on page 10 63... 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- there's a reference to Dan 13 Elliott, at the top, of MNR. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And it's not clear whether he is in 16 the meeting or not, but do you -- I take it from what 17 you've said you don't remember Dan Elliott -- 18 A: I don't even know who Dan Elliott is. 19 I have no idea who that is. 20 Q: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you have any recollection that the 25 sentiment that is ascribed to Ed Vervoort here namely the
1001 concern that the longer the occupation goes, the more 2 occupiers there may be? 3 A: I don't recall. I don't have a 4 recollection because I don't recall Ed Vervoort ever 5 being in any of our meetings. So I -- 6 Q: I'm talking now was that sentiment 7 expressed by anybody else? Anybody at all? 8 A: No, I don't. I don't recall that, 9 sir. 10 Q: All right. I'd like to now ask some 11 background questions about the situation at this time on 12 the 6th. 13 I think that it's been mentioned that 14 during this period at 14:27 or 2:27 in the afternoon, you 15 were leading this meeting because Inspector Carson was in 16 the command post meeting with Coles and Parkin, right? 17 A: Well I know that now from watching 18 the Inquiry and listening to Deputy Carson give his 19 evidence and reviewing this. But I -- I remember vaguely 20 Parkin being there. 21 I don't remember Coles being there but -- 22 and I don't remember independently that Coles and Parkin 23 and Carson were meeting and I was chairing this meeting. 24 Q: So you don't have any recollection of 25 the two (2) meetings happening at the same time?
1011 A: No. I -- I -- I don't. I -- I 2 remember chairing that meeting. Like I remember vaguely 3 looking after that meeting. But I don't recall where 4 John was. I'm aware of it now based on listening to the 5 evidence at the Inquiry but I don't recall being aware at 6 the time. 7 I'm -- I -- I suspect he would have told 8 me. I -- I mean I have little doubt he would have told 9 me he was off meeting with whomever. I -- I'm sure I 10 would have seen them there, Coles and Parkin. It's a 11 small place. 12 Q: Do you know where this meeting that 13 you chaired or led was taking place? 14 A: I thought it was the command post. 15 Q: And if that's the case then because 16 the command post was -- sorry, do you mean in the 17 trailer? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Yeah. Sorry. 21 Q: And so is it your best assessment or 22 knowledge that both the meeting you were leading and 23 Carson's meeting with -- with Coles and Parkin were 24 happening in the command post trailer at the same time? 25 A: No. I didn't -- I said I don't have
1021 any recollection of that. I just -- I know I was -- I 2 vaguely remember chairing a meeting and I'm -- although I 3 don't have any recollection of where John was I'm sure he 4 would have told me. And I suspect I would have seen 5 Coles and Parkin -- actually I'm sure I would have seen 6 them there. It's a very small place. But I just don't 7 remember. 8 Q: All right. And I'd like to now talk 9 about the emergency injunction or the ex parte 10 injunction. I believe you testified that at this point 11 on the 6th, you had some idea about what it meant for an 12 injunction to be ex parte or not or on notice or not. 13 Is that fair? 14 A: No. I don't think I said that at 15 all. I -- I don't think I knew at this time. I 16 remember that the first time the injunction became a 17 concern for me personally was September 6th that -- I 18 think it starts about four o'clock in the afternoon when 19 Carson says 'You might be the guy giving evidence' and 20 then sometime later 'You are going to be the guy giving 21 evidence.' 22 Then it becomes a concern of mine because 23 now I've -- I'm -- you know, I've been delegated that 24 responsibility that I've given evidence to that I felt 25 was a rather daunting task on my part.
1031 And I -- I still didn't understand at that 2 point, you know, ex parte, emergency, it didn't really 3 matter to me. All I knew was that I was responsible for 4 having to go before a judge and give a fairly detailed 5 history of what took place there. 6 Q: And before that point, the injunction 7 as I think you said, was of little concern to you, really 8 it wasn't your issue? 9 A: No, no. I didn't -- if I said that I 10 apologize. I -- I was aware of we wanted an injunction. 11 We were not going to move, like the injunction was very 12 important to us because we were not going to do anything 13 vis-a-vis the Park and the occupiers without an 14 injunction. 15 So -- I mean, I was certainly alive to 16 that and aware of it's importance. Just -- you were 17 asking about an ex parte -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- emergency. It didn't -- that -- 20 that particular minutia of the injunction didn't concern 21 me. 22 Q: Had you given any thought to yourself 23 or any other officer testifying in court for the 24 injunction? 25 A: No. It never occurred to me. I was
1041 -- I can -- I can recall being shocked when he told me I 2 was probably going to be the guy and thinking I was 3 hoping I wasn't going to be the guy, but that couldn't 4 turn out to be so. 5 Q: Just to be clear, and I didn't -- my 6 question asked about whether you had given any thought to 7 whether you or any other officer would testify in the -- 8 A: Well, I can speak to any other -- no, 9 I didn't give any thought to that. 10 Q: Okay. And... 11 A: That's, of course, prior to like I 12 said, Carson saying, you might be giving the evidence, 13 obviously. 14 Q: All right. But around this time at 15 14:27 hours, or thereafter, some time thereafter as the 16 flow of the meeting happens, you've -- your comment at 17 the bottom of page 62, of the -- the typewritten notes, 18 in the discussion of the Affidavit and injunction: 19 "Mark Wright: There will be a lag 20 time. Second party has to have an 21 opportunity to attend." 22 Right? 23 A: What page are you on? 24 Q: I'm now at page 62, again -- 25 A: Yes.
1051 Q: -- of the -- of Tab 18. 2 A: Yeah, that's what I said. 3 Q: Okay, do you see that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: So that was your understanding at the 6 time? 7 A: That was my understanding, yeah. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: So I guess it goes without saying 10 that I -- I didn't know there could be an ex parte. 11 Q: Did not know? 12 A: That's what it would appear, if I'm-- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- saying that the second party has 15 to have an opportunity, then I'm -- it would appear that 16 I do not understand that there could be an ex parte -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- injunction granted. 19 Q: Okay. And then if we go to the end 20 of the meeting on page 63. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: We see the next notation is time 23 stamped 14:47 hours, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Which is 2:47 p.m.
1061 A: Right. 2 Q: And that is Inspector Carson advising 3 that McCabe has called him about giving evidence 4 tomorrow, in Sarnia Court, right? 5 A: Yeah, and I think this is where we're 6 into my notes, I think, that John is -- it might be him, 7 but it might be me. 8 Because -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I think that's shortly thereafter 11 it's -- I think it's right around this time where I'm 12 told that, Mark, you might be giving evidence. 13 Q: Right. My question is -- is somewhat 14 differently, and for that if you could turn in the 15 supplementary binder that we've -- 16 A: Right. 17 Q: -- provided to you, at page 27. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Which is Exhibit P-410. 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Are the handwritten notes of 25 Inspector Carson of a couple of phone conversations, and
1071 this is at page 27 of the binder. 2 A: Yeah, I'm there, yeah. 3 Q: Do you have that? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: And you'll see a notation, 14:10 6 being 2:10? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Which appears to be, if you glance at 9 it, a discussion -- a telephone conversation with Ron Fox 10 about an ex parte injunction which may be tomorrow or 11 tonight, right? 12 Do you see that? 13 And not to get into the details because 14 this is the subject of a -- 15 A: Sure. 16 Q: -- other evidence about a tape -- 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: -- conversation. 19 A: Yeah, I'll take your word for it. 20 Q: Do you see that? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And then the next line is: 23 "Tim McCabe, AG, 14:45"? 24 A: Yes, I see it, yeah. 25 Q: Right. Which is 2:45, right?
1081 A: Right. 2 Q: And so it appears, and to summarize 3 this, that while -- just before you began chairing the 4 meeting, Inspector Carson was speaking with Ron Fox on 5 the phone about the ex parte injunction. 6 Let me just pause there and go back a 7 step. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Because the notes of John Carson at 10 about 2:10 talk about the conversation with Fox, right? 11 A: If that's what those notes are 12 referring to and you're saying that they are, fine. 13 Q: All right. And then you begin 14 leading the meeting at about 14:00 or twenty-seven (27) 15 or 2:27, according to the notes, right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And then Carson's notes say that 18 about 14:45 he talked to McCabe about the ex parte 19 injunction? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And then the command post notes talk 22 about 14:47 or 2:47 -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Carson coming out, I guess -- 25 A: Right.
1091 Q: -- and saying that there's going to 2 be an ex parte injunction, right? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: It doesn't say ex parte injunction it 7 says -- 8 Q: I -- 9 A: -- "Inspector Carson advised that Tim 10 McCabe, Crown Law Office, called him 11 inquiring about his availability to 12 give evidence tomorrow in Sarnia Court, 13 subject to the approval of -- of bosses 14 or whether someone else can go." 15 I don't think that -- that we're talking 16 ex parte here. 17 Q: I beg you're pardon, you're correct. 18 Those notes don't talk about ex parte at that point but-- 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: -- but Carson's notes at that point 21 do talk about ex parte injunction, right? 22 A: Well -- 23 Q: I'm -- 24 A: -- I think it says "ex parte" 25 injunction, slash, not served, is -- is, I think, what we
1101 can take from that. 2 Q: I'm now referring to under the name 3 "Tim McCabe" at 14:45; do you see that? 4 A: Oh, I see. Okay. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: "Ex parte injunction tomorrow 7 Sarnia." 8 Yeah. 9 Q: So it appears that at that point 10 after speaking with Mr. McCabe at about 2:45 in the 11 afternoon Inspector Carson has in his mind the ex parte 12 injunction and he comes out -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and talks 15 to -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 17 Millar...? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, you can't take 19 that from this note. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can't. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You can take it from 22 the evidence that Mr. Carson gave. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He can ask this man 25 what this man was told Carson but the...
1111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm -- I'm 3 trying not -- I'm trying to be expeditious and common 4 sense about this and I -- I apologize. The -- the -- 5 maybe the -- that the sequence needs to be in more 6 detail. 7 This is the conversation that was taped in 8 which there was discussion of an ex parte injunction. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no difficulty 10 with that. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and I'm -- 12 and I'm just trying to -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- tie these 15 together. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Inspector 17 Wright wasn't involved in that conversation. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: No, but -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 20 problem. I mean I see what you're doing but you've got 21 Inspector Wright on the stand. You have to ask him 22 questions that he knows something about -- 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and that 25 he can in some way help us.
1121 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 3 Q: I am attempting to do that which is 4 why I am cross-referencing these to the -- the notes 5 which he participated in. 6 And I'm just trying to say, Inspector 7 Carson -- am I right that it appears that Inspector 8 Carson came and did he advise you at 2:47, 14:47 hours, 9 about the -- the injunction? I believe -- I believe you 10 accepted that a moment ago, but let's clarify that. 11 A: No, I don't think I -- I don't think 12 I ever said that. 13 Q: Well, you can look at the typewritten 14 notes. 15 A: If -- if you look at my personal 16 notes, sir, at 14:47 it says: 17 "Advised I would be attending the court 18 tomorrow possibly, in Sarnia, to give 19 evidence in the injunction 20 proceedings." 21 Those are my notes and they're on page 76 22 of my blue -- the blue document, whatever -- whatever 23 this is. 24 Q: Those notes I believe you testified 25 were written the next day, on the 7th, right?
1131 A: No, I said that once -- at some point 2 that takes place. I think when -- once I leave to go 3 down to the meeting with the people around eight o'clock 4 -- well, I -- I don't -- I can't recall what time I left 5 exactly, 6:30-ish or something like that, to meet the 6 people in Port Franks, and then it turned out to be the 7 TOC. After that I didn't put pen to paper, but prior to 8 that I did. 9 Q: All right. So your evidence is that 10 the -- that in your handwritten notes, which are Exhibit 11 P-1086 at 14:47 hours -- 12 A: Page 76. 13 Q: Page 76. Thank you. You were advised 14 that you would be in court tomorrow? 15 A: Well, it says there I -- I would be 16 attending and then I think later on in my notes I say 17 that I am attending again. I just -- I don't know where 18 it is again but, yeah. And then at 16:44 at -- on page 19 78 of my notes it says: 20 "Advised I would be giving evidence at 21 the injunction tomorrow." 22 And I think what's going on here is at 23 14:47, which ties in nicely with the scribe notes, is I 24 think Carson was being told he may be the guy but they 25 decided -- and he told me, Mark, you might have --
1141 because I remember him saying, You might be the person. 2 And I think then there's a discussion with 3 Coles or whomever, and for whatever reason they decide 4 I'm going to be the guy. And at 16:44, according to my 5 notes, that's when I'm told I'm going to be giving 6 evidence. 7 Q: The difficulty I have with that, 8 Inspector Carson, it doesn't quite clarify, in my mind, 9 your notes of 14 -- I'm sorry. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Inspector 11 Wright, that's fine. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I apologize. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I apologize. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: Your notes of 14:47 hours for 18 September 6th at page 76 -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- let me -- let's just look at them, 21 okay? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: It says: 24 "Advised I would be attending the court 25 tomorrow, possibly in Sarnia --"
1151 A: Right. 2 Q: "-- to give evidence in the 3 injunction proceedings." 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: So I take it that is your evidence of 6 what you were told at 14:47? On this -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 8 explained his position all ready, Mr. Klippenstein. He's 9 gone over this. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, with 11 respect, as I recall, and the record will show, it -- it 12 appears that I think Inspector Wright said something a 13 little different than what the notes show. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 15 giving his evidence now. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's why I'm 17 asking him, Commissioner. That's why I'm -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Okay, 19 you're trying to clarify between -- 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's exactly 21 what and why -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- I'm asking 24 him, Commissioner. 25 THE WITNESS: You know sir, it can -- you
1161 know, we're talk -- again, I've given my evidence and 2 advised I -- this may be helpful, advised I would be 3 attending the 'court tomorrow possibly.' It couldn't be 4 that 'in Sarnia to give evidence.' I mean the 'possibly' 5 could be linked with the 'court tomorrow possibly,' and 6 then the place would be in Sarnia. 7 I can't recall exactly why I wrote this 8 down this particular way, but I can tell you that there's 9 absolutely no doubt in my mind, and I have an independent 10 recollection that Carson came to me and said Mark, you 11 might be giving evidence, and then some time later he 12 told me, Mark, you are going to be giving evidence, so. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 15 Q: All right. Okay, so -- and that 16 matches with the 14:47 hours? 17 A: Right. Yeah. 18 Q: So Carson came out having just spoken 19 with McCabe, it would appear -- 20 A: It would appear. 21 Q: -- and said to you, You may be giving 22 evidence in court tomorrow for the injunction. Have I 23 got that right? 24 A: Yes. That's my -- that's my 25 independent recollection, correct.
1171 Q: All right. Obviously, it would 2 appear that you were not told, at that point in time, 3 that the injunction would be ex parte the next day, 4 correct -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- because later in those meeting 7 notes you say the party has to have notice, right? 8 A: Yeah, and I think further if I could 9 -- to answer your question, I think it would be helpful, 10 is that if you -- if you look at my conversation with 11 McCabe later that night, is he starts talking about, 12 Look, you know, we -- it would be helpful if we serve 13 these people because how are they to know, you know, how 14 are they to know there's an injunction tomorrow without 15 there being service. 16 So there's a conversation with McCabe 17 later on that night where he's telling me that. So I 18 think that goes to earlier I didn't know about the ex 19 parte because he's describing it to me in the 20 conversation later on that evening. 21 Q: Now I -- I -- I take it from what you 22 said that you had not, prior to 2:47 on September 6th -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- thought at all about the 25 possibility that you would be giving evidence in the
1181 injunction? 2 A: I would agree 100 percent with that. 3 Q: All right. And do you recall -- let 4 -- let me take a step back. By the time Inspector Carson 5 told you at 2:47 on the 6th that you were going -- that 6 you might be testifying, Inspector Carson had had, 7 according to the taped evidence, a -- a fairly lengthy 8 conversation with Ron Fox in Toronto and also a 9 conversation with McCabe, all discussing the injunction? 10 A: I wouldn't -- I wouldn't know -- 11 Q: I didn't ask my question yet. 12 A: -- I mean I don't -- 13 Q: I didn't ask my question yet. My 14 question is: Do -- did Inspector Carson tell you, at 15 2:47 or thereabouts, anything about the content of those 16 two (2) telephone conversations? 17 A: No. I don't -- I don't recall -- I'm 18 absolutely certain about the Fox thing, I -- no, I don't. 19 There's nothing -- I don't recall anything about -- 20 hearing anything about Fox until I talked to him that -- 21 on the phone call, whenever that was in -- and they're in 22 the -- in the command post minutes. 23 And I don't -- I don't recall him telling 24 me about -- specifically about McCabe, although obviously 25 he's relaying the information to me that I may be giving
1191 evidence at an injunction tomorrow. 2 Q: Yes. Now, in the conversation, the 3 taped conversation between Inspector Carson and McCabe, 4 which you didn't hear -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- and just leading up to my 7 question, Inspector, or rather Mr. McCabe at a couple of 8 points talks about the legal requirement for an ex parte 9 injunction, that there be some urgency. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Did Inspector Carson, at about 2:47, 12 after he'd spoken with Mr. McCabe -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- tell you that the evidence you 15 were going to present, or might present in Court, would 16 deal with the question of urgency? 17 A: No, I don't recall that at all, sir. 18 Q: All right. Commissioner, I don't 19 know what time was intended for the break time -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- lunch break. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'll try 23 to accommodate your examination, where you think an 24 appropriate time to break would be, but... 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Sure.
1201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 2 making -- 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: A moment's 4 indulgence. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 6 making better time than you expected or worse time or -- 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm making 8 slightly worse time, Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then 10 would it be helpful if we had an adjournment and give you 11 an opportunity to see where we were? 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I think that 13 would be useful, but I'm starting a new subject area now, 14 so this may be a good time to -- to pause. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's break 16 now. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 19 adjourned until 2:05. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 12:51 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 2:07 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.
1211 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 afternoon. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good afternoon, 4 Commissioner. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Inspector Wright. 8 A: Good afternoon. 9 Q: I'd like to at this point ask you a 10 number of questions related to the chronology of events 11 on the evening of the 6th. 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: And I'd like to begin with the 14 situation as it stood after you left the meeting of 15 residents on East Parkway Drive. 16 Do you know the approximate point and time 17 I'm referring to in the sequence? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: You at that point had attended a 20 meeting of residents or cottagers at the MNR parking lot 21 site; is that right? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And then you left that and drove 24 eastbound to -- roughly towards the -- towards the 25 Ipperwash Park area, right?
1221 A: Sure. 2 Q: Now at that point, which was 3 something like 6:30 or 7:00 approximately; is that -- 4 A: Well, it was after -- it wasn't 6:30. 5 It would be -- I think it was a little after 7:00. 6 Q: 7:00/7:30, sorry. 7 A: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. 8 Q: I wasn't focussing on the time at 9 this point. You were at the end of your regular shift, 10 approximately, right? 11 A: Yeah I thought so. Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. And I think your testimony in 13 court was you been up since five o'clock in the morning 14 that day on the 6th; does that sound about right? 15 A: 5:00 or 6:00, yes, something like 16 that, yeah. 17 Q: All right. And so you were finishing 18 your shift and is it right to say that the visit to the 19 residents' meeting on East Parkway was basically the last 20 thing you had planned for your shift; is that right? 21 A: Yeah. Prior to going down there, 22 sure. 23 Q: And normally you would have expected 24 to what, go directly to your -- to your evening spot or 25 go back to the command post for debriefing or what?
1231 A: I suspect I would have gone back -- 2 certainly I would have gone back to the command post and 3 stayed there for a while I guess. Hard to say. 4 Q: And in fact Inspector Carson had left 5 at approximately that time, right? 6 A: Yeah I think it's -- he -- he -- I 7 think he left shortly after 6:00 as I recall, something 8 like that. 9 Q: Right. So he finished a shift and 10 you were finishing your shift, or more less finished your 11 shift, right? 12 A: No. I wouldn't -- I wasn't finished 13 my shift. I never -- I never did finish my shift. 14 Q: No, no. You thought as you -- as you 15 drove away from the MNR parking lot, the TOC site, you 16 thought you had finished your shift? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. 19 A: I disagree. 20 Q: Okay. What -- what were you going to 21 do? 22 A: There's no doubt in my mind I hadn't 23 finished my shift -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- as I left --
1241 Q: With respect to the court prep, I 2 think, was also in your mind, but anything else? 3 A: Well, I -- I was leaving the TOC, the 4 MNR parking lot and obviously I had talked to these 5 people and they had -- they had voiced their concerns to 6 me as I've given in my evidence in-chief and I was intent 7 on getting back and telling whomever it was at Forest 8 Detachment, Incident Commander, what was going -- what -- 9 what happened as a result of that meeting. 10 And I guess I was -- I -- I erred there 11 earlier when I just said Carson had left because I -- I 12 still thought Carson was there clearly from my request on 13 the radio shortly thereafter asking if Inspector Carson 14 was there. 15 Q: So you had not -- as I understand it 16 now, you had not really finished your shift; you were 17 going to go back to the command post and talk about... 18 A: Well, sure things that I -- I was now 19 privy to some information that I felt that the Incident 20 Commander had to know about right away. 21 Q: And that was what the -- the 22 residents or cottagers had talked about doing and -- and 23 what you had talked to them about; is that right? 24 A: Yeah. And that -- I mean that state 25 of mind lasted from the time I left the MNR parking lot
1251 until I came to the curve and came across the occupiers. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: And then my mindset changed once 4 again. 5 Q: Right. Am I correct in understanding 6 that you thought you had dispersed the cottagers at that 7 point, and that no further action would be required with 8 respect to the cottagers for that evening or that night? 9 A: I was positive I had dealt with the 10 cottagers as I left. I was certainly unsure as to what 11 they may do later on that night. 12 I was concerned. 13 Q: What do you mean by that, you were 14 unsure? 15 A: Well, I mean, who's to know what they 16 were -- like I said, I've given my evidence that, you 17 know, they were pretty concerned about what had gone on 18 down there and that they were, you know, I'd come upon 19 them as they were about to march to or on to the Park, 20 and I talked them out of that. 21 But I mean, that's subject to change at 22 any time, I suspect. I was hoping for the best, but 23 certainly I wanted to get back to the command post and 24 let them know what had taken place. 25 Q: Well, you said it was subject to
1261 change at any time, a lot of things are. Did you have 2 any actual indication of any sort that the cottagers or 3 residents would resume the actions -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- that they talked about? 6 A: No, but you asked me if I was sure 7 that they weren't going to do anything after and that's 8 why I responded in that manner. 9 Q: All right. But for practical 10 purposes, you had assumed, as you left the MNR parking 11 lot, that the cottagers' issue was -- was settled for the 12 evening and the night? 13 A: No. I just said -- I've just 14 answered that, no. I was satisfied that I had dealt with 15 their issues at that moment. However, their -- their -- 16 it caused me great concern and I wanted to get back to 17 the command post to tell them what had taken place. 18 I didn't know if they were going to change 19 their mind an hour or so later. I mean, who's to know. 20 Q: Well, then I asked you whether you 21 had any evidence or at any particular point and so you 22 have -- you had -- did you have any reason whatsoever to 23 think they would change their mind? 24 A: Did I have any reason whatsoever to 25 think -- I guess it cuts both ways, to answer your
1271 question. I -- I didn't know whether they were and I 2 didn't know whether they were not going to come back. 3 I was hopeful that I had dealt with the 4 situation. 5 Q: All right. And were you going to 6 suggest anything to the -- at the command post that any 7 action be taken that evening or that night with respect 8 to the cottagers? 9 A: You know, I -- I don't recall this 10 time because, you know, that was a priority in my mind, 11 from the time I left the parking lot until I came around 12 the curve which is, whatever that is, fifty (50) metres 13 or sixty (60) metres, whatever that takes to travel in a 14 cruiser and then, of course, my mindset became completely 15 different after that. 16 There was a whole new set of variables 17 introduced. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: So you got to the curve -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- of East Parkway and Army Camp 24 Road. 25 A: Right.
1281 Q: And at that point you were unsure 2 whether the cottagers would resume their activity that 3 night; that's what you've just said? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: That's what we've just said, or am 8 I -- 9 A: I was -- I think I -- what my answer 10 was, was I was hopeful that I had dealt with that. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: All right. And when you got to the 15 curve, you described what you saw and then -- and what 16 you did, and then you travelled south along Army Camp 17 Road -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- is that right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: I may get back to what -- by the way, 22 you were obviously alone at the corner of Army Camp Road 23 and East Parkway, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: There were no other witnesses other
1291 than the native people who were there, right? 2 A: As far as I know, yes. 3 Q: Right. Do you know whether any of 4 the people at the checkpoint, C, up on Army Camp Road 5 actually saw what happened that night? 6 A: I don't know of that, to be -- so, 7 one way or the other I don't know. 8 Q: All right. As -- do you know if any 9 attempt has ever been made over the years to find out 10 whether the people at Checkpoint C saw anything down 11 there? 12 A: I -- I haven't read the statements 13 from the officers at that checkpoint, so I wouldn't know 14 if that question has been asked of them. 15 Q: All right. And -- and how many 16 officers were there at Checkpoint C when you got there? 17 A: I don't recall. I -- I think my 18 evidence in-chief was that there were at least -- I seem 19 to recall at least four (4) but there could have been 20 more. 21 Q: All right. And I'd like to ask you 22 to turn the binder of supplementary documents which we 23 provided to you and at page 73 -- 24 A: 73? 25 Q: -- 73 of the supplementary binder are
1301 the notes of Constable Zacher which are Inquiry Document 2 1000888 and Exhibit P-476. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes, sir, I'm there. 7 Q: And at the -- a third of the way down 8 that page there's a notation for 19:00 hours or 7:00 pm 9 approximately do you see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And let me just read the two (2) or 12 three (3) sentences there, I may not get all the wording 13 right: 14 "Relieve Checkpoint C, Army Camp Road 15 near Matheson Drive." 16 There's an abbreviation which: 17 "We might be notified."? 18 A: I think so too, yeah. 19 Q: "Detective Sergeant Wright 20 information of numerous native persons 21 on [the next word I don't know but 22 then] lot area at intersection of Army 23 Camp Road and East Ipperwash Road." 24 Is that approximately right? 25 A: Yeah, that's what it looks like to
1311 me. 2 Q: And then if it continues: 3 "Informed persons very confrontational 4 to [and I don't know that word] if 5 action to check [I guess it is] -- to 6 check if action to [and I don't know 7 that word] individuals. Notified 8 persons on public property and not on 9 Provincial Park." 10 Is that right so far? 11 A: I don't know. I -- I've kind of lost 12 the stream of what he's trying to say. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: But I -- I can make out about as much 15 as you can if that's helpful. 16 Q: Okay. Most of that is not necessary, 17 I just wanted you to have a context. What I'd like to 18 ask you about is the statement in his notes: 19 "Informed persons very 20 confrontational." 21 And -- 22 A: Informed... 23 Q: Which I take to be him recording that 24 you informed him -- 25 A: No, I think that says, "information
1321 of numerous..." 2 Q: I apologize. I'm in the next 3 paragraph. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: Do you see that? 6 A: Okay. I'm -- I'm there, yes. Okay. 7 Sorry. 8 Q: "Informed -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- persons very confrontational." 11 A: Yeah -- 12 Q: Do you see that? 13 A: -- that's what it looks to me, yeah. 14 Q: And it appears to me that that is a 15 record of you advising Zacher, Constable Zacher, that the 16 persons that you just described at the parking lot were 17 very confrontational. 18 And my question to you is: Do you think 19 it's accurate that you informed Constable Zacher that the 20 persons there were very confrontational? 21 A: Well, these are Constable Zacher's 22 notes, not mine, number 1, so you're going to have to ask 23 Constable Zacher about what -- what he's got in here. 24 And I've given evidence about what I told them when I 25 went to the scene is that there were a number of
1331 individuals with -- armed with bats, that I was 2 concerned, and that I would get back to them and I was 3 moving onto the next checkpoint. I don't recall whether 4 or not I said they were very confrontational or not. 5 Q: Well, my question, precisely, is 6 whether what Zacher apparently wrote down as your 7 description -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- was what you said and whether it's 10 accurate. Are you -- are you -- 11 A: I think I answered that -- just 12 answered that did I not? 13 Q: Well, did you -- did you feel at the 14 time and do you feel today that the -- the individuals at 15 the -- at the parking lot were very confrontational? 16 A: They were -- sure, yeah. 17 Q: So now, when you say, 18 "they were very confrontational", 19 as I understand your evidence so far in 20 various fora, they did not stop you when you drove 21 around; you stopped voluntarily, right? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: So they were not very confrontational 24 in that sense, correct? 25 A: I agree.
1341 Q: And as I understand it so far none of 2 them shouted at you; is that right? 3 A: I agree. 4 Q: So they were not very confrontational 5 in that sense, right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And none of them hit you with 8 anything or your car with anything, right? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So they were not very 11 confrontational, and I haven't seen -- correct, on that 12 regard? 13 A: In that regard. 14 Q: And I have not seen any evidence that 15 any of them swore at you; am I right about that? 16 A: No. Not that I can recall -- 17 Q: So they weren't -- 18 A: -- I don't -- 19 Q: -- they were not very -- very 20 confrontational in that sense, right? 21 A: Right 22 Q: And they did not -- they did not tell 23 you that you couldn't go down to the parking lot until 24 you asked if you could; is that right? 25 A: That's right.
1351 Q: So they were not very confrontational 2 in that sense either, were they? 3 A: I disagree. 4 Q: All right. So how do you disagree? 5 A: I asked them if I could go down to 6 the parking lot area and they said no I couldn't. I 7 found that to be very confrontational as they stood there 8 armed with bats in their hands, some of them. 9 Q: I see. And when you say they were 10 armed with bats, you weren't really sure about that 11 because -- 12 A: Bats or axe handles. Something to 13 that affect. 14 Q: Sticks or something like that? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Because you've testified or you made 17 in a previous statement that it was getting dark and they 18 were some distance away so you couldn't be quite sure 19 what they had; is that right? 20 A: Yeah. In my notes I think reflect 21 that that is -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- I make a number of entries with 24 regards to what I thought they might be armed with and 25 certainly they weren't all armed with that either.
1361 Q: Right. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: So in your assessment at the time or 4 now, when you asked them if they could -- when you asked 5 them if you could go down to the parking lot to the beach 6 and they said in a non-yelling, a non-swearing voice that 7 you could not, you consider that very confrontational? 8 A: Well, sir, I think you have to take 9 the -- the -- into context the -- what was taking place. 10 I mean, you're -- you're dividing it up piecemeal by 11 piecemeal and I appreciate that. 12 But, you know, I felt that the -- the 13 episode at that corner was very confrontational as a 14 whole, based on -- and I can go over it again but I've 15 given it in my evidence in-chief and I believe in my 16 cross to Mr. Rosenthal as well and I'm more than happy to 17 do it again, but I certainly felt that they were very 18 confrontational and I can use a number of other 19 adjectives if you'd like. 20 Q: Well give me another example. 21 A: Well, I thought it was very 22 provocative. I thought their actions were very 23 provocative to be standing there with -- armed, tapping 24 whatever it is that was in their hands, axe handles or 25 bats in their hands telling me basically to leave, it
1371 wasn't my fight. And when I asked them to -- if I could 2 go that -- into the parking lot, they -- they made it 3 quite clear that I couldn't. 4 So in totality, and I appreciate that's my 5 subjective view on this, but I felt that there -- they 6 were in the process of committing a number of criminal 7 offences as a result of what had just taken place that 8 I've described and I found that to be very 9 confrontational. 10 Q: Now, they didn't stop you so you 11 could have just driven by and -- and nothing would have 12 happened, right? 13 A: Well, I wouldn't. I mean, I guess 14 the answer to your question is perhaps I could have 15 driven by but I'm a police officer. I see people coming 16 out onto a roadway armed with a weapon. I mean, I 17 wouldn't -- I wouldn't just drive on by. 18 Q: So it was -- was it the fact that -- 19 that about four (4) people had sticks or axe handles or 20 bats that caused you to stop; is that what you're saying? 21 A: Initially? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yeah I mean I -- I don't even know if 24 I recognized them, it's such a long time ago, but I don't 25 -- I don't recall if I initially recognized they were
1381 armed right away or the mere fact that they, you know, 2 they were on the -- in the parking lot, sandy parking lot 3 and on the edge of the roadway. 4 I mean, that would have clearly drawn my 5 attention based on what had happened earlier that morning 6 and the fact that, you know, everything that was going on 7 there with respect to the -- the occupation of the Park 8 and our concerns about the sanding parking lot and the -- 9 and the private residences immediately in that vicinity. 10 Q: And would you agree with me that 11 there's certainly room to differ in that the people doing 12 what you described would not be called very 13 confrontational by -- 14 A: Not as far as I'm concerned. Not 15 when you're take in the totality of what took place, no. 16 Q: Well, I'm not asking about the 17 totality and I -- I -- because in -- in my -- I want to 18 ask about what happened bit by bit because things that 19 happened at nine o'clock hadn't happened yet at 7:30 and 20 I want to ask about what you called the escalation. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: All right? 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: So my question was: Would you agree 25 with me that reasonable people could conclude that what
1391 you saw at the corner that evening was not very 2 confrontational? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Sandler? 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: How does anyone answer 6 that, with great respect? What reasonable people might 7 regard? He can only give his opinion. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can ask 9 him what he thought, but that's it. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 12 mean, I think that's sufficient. I think -- 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you can 15 make that argument, if you want, Mr. Klippenstein. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 21 Q: I'm suggesting to you, Inspector 22 Wright, that given what you've described at that parking 23 lot, for you to go and say to your fellow officers that 24 that was very confrontational, was, in itself, escalating 25 the situation and an unnecessary description.
1401 A: Well, I disagree. 2 Q: You disagree? 3 A: I disagree. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: So you -- you left the first 9 checkpoint at Checkpoint C and drove farther south to 10 Checkpoint D, right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And -- and spoke with the people 13 there for a little bit, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And then you left Checkpoint D, and 19 at some point -- I guess while you were at Checkpoint D 20 you got the information about a car being damaged, right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And can you tell me how you got that? 23 Was it first hand, did you hear it on the radio or did 24 somebody else at Checkpoint D say it to you? 25 A: Well, I wouldn't be equipped with a
1411 portable radio, and I -- I was out of my car, as I 2 recall. I seem to recall being out of my car, talking to 3 the officers there. 4 I'm sure I heard it over one of the 5 officers who was carrying a portable. 6 Q: Okay. So you -- 7 A: So I would have heard it -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- live over the air, as it were. 10 Q: Do you -- do you remember who it was 11 that you heard -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. And then you left and 14 made the phone call, which is transcribed at Tab 35 of 15 the Commission's -- not the phone call, the radio 16 transmission at Tab 35 of the Commission's binder, which 17 is Exhibit P-466. 18 Is that -- do you have that handy? 19 A: I'm sure I do, if I can just have a 20 moment. 35? 21 Q: Tab 35, yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes.
1421 Q: And you made that call at, it would 2 appear, 7:54 p.m.; is that right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Yeah. All right. And that call 5 says, or you say: 6 "Yeah, we got about, uh, up to eight 7 (8) individuals at the picnic table 8 area." 9 Right? 10 And as far as I know, that is the first or 11 earliest recorded instance of your description of the 12 number of individuals? 13 A: Yeah, I think so too. 14 Q: Right. So for example, your notes 15 and other statements took place after this record was 16 made -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- is that right? So -- and you say: 19 "about, uh, up to eight (8) 20 individuals." 21 Right? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: First of all, we know you are not 24 saying it was exactly eight (8) individuals, right? 25 A: Agreed.
1431 Q: And would you agree with me, in your 2 mind, your understanding was it was up to eight (8) 3 individuals which means six (6) to eight (8) individuals, 4 let's say. Is that -- 5 A: It could have been nine (9), too. 6 You know, I'm -- I was just -- as I've given in my 7 evidence in-chief, I was there, that -- that incident 8 took less than a minute. 9 I was talking to an individual who had a 10 bat in his hand, or whatever it was, I thought he had a 11 bat in his hand, tapping it in his hand. 12 I was attempting to get information from 13 him, while looking past him at the other occupiers coming 14 -- walking, generally speaking, in my general direction, 15 off of the sandy parking lot. 16 So I'm doing a number of things, trying to 17 identify offences, and I think I used the term 'multi- 18 tasking'. 19 So, I mean, it could have been nine (9) 20 but -- 21 Q: But at the time -- 22 A: I think it's -- 23 Q: At the time, you said about -- up to 24 eight (8) individuals, right? 25 A: That's what I said, yeah.
1441 Q: Yes. You didn't say up to nine (9) 2 individuals -- 3 A: No, that's right. 4 Q: I just want to understand what was -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- the earliest record we have, 7 right? 8 A: That's right. This is the earliest 9 record -- you were asking me if up to eight (8) meant six 10 (6) to eight (8) or whatever you said, and I was trying 11 to be as helpful as I could -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: As I say, it might very well have 14 been nine (9). 15 Q: So when you said, "up to eight (8) 16 individuals," you meant could have been nine (9), is that 17 what you're saying? 18 A: Well, no. I'm just saying -- 19 Q: You're trying -- 20 A: Yeah, I was giving them a -- I was 21 giving them a -- as best a number as I could at the time. 22 I mean -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- my concern wasn't -- it wasn't 25 then, and it's not today, exactly how many individuals
1451 were there. I don't think a whole lot turns on that 2 other than strictly a number. 3 There were multiple people out on the 4 sandy parking lot, and a number of them, a portion of 5 them were armed with bats or axe handles. 6 That is the message I was trying to get 7 across. 8 Q: And you were talking to one (1) 9 person who was near your car; is that right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the other people are a little 12 further distance away? 13 A: Yeah. As I recall -- I only recall 14 the one (1) individual on the road. And again, it's a 15 long time ago, but I thought the other ones were still on 16 -- on the sandy parking lot. 17 I don't remember more than one (1). One 18 (1) started to move, as I was talking to the first 19 individual, I was looking beyond him and I saw another 20 one coming towards the car. And I didn't recognize the 21 individual I was speaking to, but the other one I did and 22 I was concerned that he might recognize me. 23 So I left shortly thereafter. 24 Q: So just so it's clear, there was -- 25 what really happened here was you were talking to one (1)
1461 person near your car; is that right? 2 A: I had conversation with one (1) 3 person, correct. 4 Q: And he was the only person near your 5 car; is that right? 6 A: Sure, yeah. 7 Q: All right. And you said, or tell me 8 -- that one person had a stick or something in his hand? 9 A: Bat or something like that, yeah. 10 Q: And how far away were the other 11 people? In around 30 feet? 12 A: You know, I couldn't say. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: They were -- they were back -- 15 Q: Okay. And in your statement you said 16 it was getting dark and you weren't sure what they were 17 holding; is that right? 18 A: Which statement is that are we 19 referring to? 20 Q: Well, I can take you to it. It's at 21 Tab 58, if you want. 22 A: No, no. I'm -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- I'm just -- I'm wondering which 25 one, because I've given evidence a bunch of times about
1471 this. 2 Q: This is the statement of September 3 12th. 4 A: Okay, yeah, all right. 5 Q: So the -- so the others, other than 6 the one (1) person you were talking to, were standing 7 farther away and it was somewhat dark and you couldn't 8 quite see what they were holding; is that right? 9 A: Well, I think my evidence is they 10 were holding bats or axe handles or something like that. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: From the notes that I made on 13 September the 7th. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: Now you're referring to September the 16 12th. 17 Q: All right. But when you said on 18 September the 12th that it was dark and you had some 19 difficulty seeing, you believed at the time, right? 20 You were speaking the truth, to the best 21 of your knowledge? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yeah. I don't know if I had referred 25 to my notes when I took that statement, I don't know. I
1481 mean, again... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And going back to Exhibit P-466 -- 6 A: Is that my statement? 7 Q: No, this is -- 8 A: The radio log? 9 Q: I'm sorry, this is Tab 35, yeah, 10 the -- 11 A: Right, okay. 12 Q: -- the -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- radio transcription. 15 A: Right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 21 Mr. Klippenstein. Is that -- you said Tab 466? 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: If I said that, 23 I meant Exhibit P-466. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Isn't it 25 Exhibit 1115? I may be mistaken.
1491 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: It may be 2 several, actually, and it's possible that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got -- 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Or I may be 5 mistaken. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P -- 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: P-11 -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 15. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: A moment's 10 indulgence. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 12 to make sure I'm looking at the right exhibit. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I understand 14 this has been made Exhibit -- an exhibit a couple of 15 times, so that unfortunately results -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It could 17 be -- 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- in some 19 confusion. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- both 21 numbers? 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. So it 23 appears, tentatively, that it's P-466 and P-1115. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-466, Your Honour, is 25 part --
1501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of a larger 2 exhibit, yes. 3 THE REGISTRAR: -- of -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 5 that. 6 THE REGISTRAR: -- to 1115. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And 1115 is 8 just this one page. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm sorry. Is 10 -- is this one (1) page the -- P-4 -- I guess the one (1) 11 page would be P-1115, sorry -- 12 THE REGISTRAR: That's right. That's 13 correct. One (1) page is 1115. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: Now, Mr. -- Inspector Wright, as I go 17 through the radio transcription you say halfway through: 18 "And I talked to them for a while." 19 I now understand it's less than a minute, 20 right? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And you talked to one (1) person for 23 a while, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: So you talked to one (1) person for
1511 less than a minute and then you say: 2 "They weren't sure who I was and it 3 appears to me -- it appears to me that 4 they're up to something." 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And then you continue: 7 "So you can talk to your ERT guy in 8 there with the Inspector, I'm on my way 9 back. I'll give you a full rep when I 10 get back but I think we should be 11 moving some people down that way. I 12 think we should be moving some people 13 down that way." 14 Now, first of all, I believe in your 15 questioning by Mr. Rosenthal last time you said that when 16 you said, 17 "I think we should be moving people -- 18 some people down that way," 19 you were referring to the checkpoints? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Is that -- 22 A: That's correct, yes. 23 Q: Now, the checkpoints are not referred 24 to in that radio transmission? 25 A: That's right.
1521 Q: There's only one (1) location of 2 relevance mentioned and that is what you call 'the picnic 3 table area'. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: So is it your evidence that you 6 referred to the picnic table area, you didn't refer to 7 the checkpoints but when you said, We should move people 8 down that way, you wanted people to understand that you 9 meant the checkpoints and not the picnic table area is 10 that your evidence? 11 A: Well, yeah, I guess. It's not -- I 12 didn't -- I -- I wanted them to understand, and I mean, 13 sir, nothing was going to -- you have to read the rest of 14 this. It says, I'm -- I'll give you a full rep, I'm ten 15 (10) minutes away. I was just alerting Command that I 16 had come across something and that I felt we were going 17 to need to send some more people down there. 18 I -- certainly Command wasn't going to -- 19 never did I think that they were going to put people in 20 cars and send them down to -- to where? I mean they 21 really don't know where it is I'm talking about I suspect 22 but I was on my way to let them know and give them a full 23 understanding and information about what I had seen. 24 So you know to take this and say as a 25 result of this I meant "A" or "B", I mean this is
1531 Command, this is what's happened, I'm alive to this, you 2 need to be aware, I'm coming back and I will give you a 3 full briefing as to what it is I'm concerned about. 4 Q: Well, one (1) question that occurs to 5 me when I hear this, Inspector Wright, is that you were 6 aware at the time that a large number of people in the 7 area had scanners and they were listening to police 8 transmissions at the time is that right? 9 A: Was I aware? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I -- I don't know. I suspect I 12 probably was. Yeah, sure. 13 Q: Yes, you -- you were? 14 A: I suspect I was. 15 Q: Well -- 16 A: I -- I don't know. 17 Q: Do you recall being examined for 18 discovery on June 27th, 2001? 19 A: In regards to what? 20 Q: And do you recall being -- being 21 asked to describe what happened and you saying in part 22 that: 23 "We were certainly aware that a large 24 number of these residents of Ipperwash 25 had scanners and were listening to what
1541 was going on?" 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: That's page 116? 4 A: Sure. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: Sure. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: I don't take issue with that. 9 Q: Right. So -- so you knew at the time 10 that a large number of people in the area had scanners 11 and were listening right? 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: And so when you said -- and that -- 16 that might have included Native occupiers as well, right? 17 A: I guess, sure. 18 Q: Sure. And so when you said you think 19 we should send people down that way -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- it made a difference possibly to 22 others whether you were describing a checkpoint or the 23 picnic table area do you agree? 24 A: Well, I guess you'd have to ask them. 25 I don't know.
1551 Q: So -- 2 A: Not -- not in my mind. I was sending 3 some information to the Command Post about what I had 4 seen and I was on my way. If -- if there were people 5 with scanners and if they were listening and if they 6 chose to interpret it whatever they wish it something I 7 wouldn't know about. 8 Q: Now, we've -- we've heard a tape 9 played of half -- approximately a half an hour later in 10 which Mark Dew -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- phones in and says, I didn't want 13 -- I didn't want to send this information by radio 14 because I didn't want it to be overheard. 15 A: I -- I recall reading something like 16 that. 17 Q: You recall -- 18 A: Yeah. He's talking to Linton I 19 think. 20 Q: Yes. Now -- so he apparently, 21 according to the evidence was concerned about people 22 intercepting them. 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: Now -- so did it occur to you at the 25 time that Native occupiers might be hearing your
1561 transmission and might be hearing that you were thinking 2 they should send people down that way and that it might 3 be of some concern to the occupiers? Did you ever think 4 of that then? 5 A: I can honestly say that that would 6 have not entered my mind. 7 Q: All right. We -- and in fact we've 8 heard some evidence from Marlin Simon that he did hear a 9 transmission on the scanner which did cause him concern 10 and caused him to attempt to get more people down to the 11 Park. 12 Were you aware of that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Have you ever in the last ten (10) 15 years reviewed the possibility that it was radio 16 transmissions by police officers, yourself and perhaps 17 others, who in fact caused concern and action on the part 18 of the occupiers themselves? 19 A: Sir, I just -- I -- with, you know, 20 to be completely honest with you, I -- I don't understand 21 the logic of that in any shape or form. 22 I mean, if -- if the occupiers were 23 listening to our radio communications and heard that we 24 were concerned about them being out on the roadway, then 25 I -- I would think that common sense would dictate that
1571 they would move off of the parking lot and -- and public 2 property and back into the Park and we wouldn't have a 3 problem. 4 Not to hear -- overhear this and send 5 down, I guess is what you're suggesting to me is, what 6 amounts to additional people to -- to do I don't know 7 what in -- in the event that police officers are sent 8 down to those checkpoints. 9 I mean, the fact of the matter is, 10 initially we sent -- Linton sent additional officers down 11 to the checkpoints and that was it. And there's a great 12 discussion in my evidence in-chief about what had taken 13 place after that. 14 And the result of what happened later on 15 that night is not hinged on -- there's not a fait 16 accompli as a result of what happened at six o'clock at 17 night or seven o'clock at night that drives the CMU down 18 the road which I've given evidence to, that there are a 19 number of things that are escalating that results in, and 20 again, it's not my decision, it's Carson's, that 21 eventually moves CMU. 22 So I just -- I -- I don't see how -- I 23 don't understand the logic to that. 24 Q: Right. And one of the things that 25 you've repeatedly referred to as a concern was what Mark
1581 Dew called in and reported. Namely that women up at the 2 Army Base were saying that something was going to happen 3 and they were pulling out their children, or words to 4 that affect; is that -- 5 A: Well, I didn't -- I -- I don't -- I 6 disagree with you that my evidence was I repeatedly 7 referred to Mark Dew's information. 8 I referred to, in my evidence in-chief, a 9 number of incidents that as far as I was concerned, my 10 evidence was that it was caused -- demonstrated an 11 escalation on the part of the occupiers with respect to 12 the public area, the parking lot and the roadway, that 13 there was a threat to public safety and a breach of the 14 peace taking place and I felt that that needed to be 15 addressed. 16 So I -- it wasn't multiples comments with 17 respect to Mark Dew's position. That certainly was 18 information we had prior to CMU moving down there, that's 19 for sure. 20 Q: And you certainly did in -- in your 21 testimony here and in other fora -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- put some weight on the information 24 that Native women at the Army Base were saying 25 something's going to happen, we're pulling out our kids,
1591 right? 2 A: Personally, me? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Yes, sure. Sure that -- that -- I 5 took him that information and -- and processed that, 6 yeah. 7 Q: And you've said that that was a 8 contributing factor in what you saw to be the escalation, 9 right? 10 A: I don't -- I don't know if I said 11 that or not. I don't know if that demonstrates an 12 escalating behaviour. I think that causes a concern and 13 is -- and -- and it's related to -- I mean, the 14 escalating behaviour would be proper to the sandy parking 15 lot roadway area. 16 I mean, because the women and children 17 were leaving the Park, I mean people could come and go as 18 they were; would that be a concern because of what they 19 said? Sure, but I don't know if that can be linked to an 20 escalation. 21 I think it's a concern. I think the 22 escala -- I don't think, I know as far as I'm concerned, 23 the escalation in my mind deals with actions as they deal 24 with, you know, the parking lot, that area, the 25 Provincial Park and in that -- the sandy parking lot
1601 road. 2 Q: So if in the -- in the past you've 3 said that the women and children reports of leaving were 4 a part of the escalation that was not -- that wouldn't be 5 what you -- what you say today? 6 A: Well, perhaps I'm trying to draw too 7 fine of a line on it, I apologize if I am. I'm just 8 trying to be as helpful as I can in that -- 9 Q: Well be as precise as you can. 10 A: And I am, I'm trying to be as precise 11 as I can, is that certainly that would cause a concern 12 based on everything else that we were hearing. And you 13 have to take that information in the order that it was 14 obtained, in relation to everything else that's going on 15 down there. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: So, you know, was that a direct 18 escalation to the -- the breach of the public peace or 19 the concern about what was -- public safety? 20 I think it plays into, you know, you have 21 to be alive to what's going on down there. I'm not sure 22 if that's part of a direct escalation with respect to the 23 public order. 24 Q: And if the statements by the women at 25 the army base, as reported by Mark Dew --
1611 A: Right. 2 Q: -- that they were taking their kids 3 out because something was going to happen -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- if that was due to interception of 6 police comments on the radio -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- that would take that factor out of 9 the calculation as an escalation; isn't that right? 10 A: Well, I think I've just finished 11 saying that I don't necessarily think it was an 12 escalation, but I would agree with you that -- that, you 13 know, what came first, the -- the women and children 14 leaving or them hearings comms of the police? I don't 15 know. Today, I don't know. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: When you said in your statement, and 20 perhaps you could turn to it at Tab 58 of Volume II -- I 21 think it's Volume II of the Commission -- 22 A: Yes. 58? 23 Q: 58. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: It's just one Volume. Your
1621 statements of September 12th, Inquiry Document 1000445, 2 Exhibit P-462. And at page 11 of your statement -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I'm sorry, page 10 at the bottom. 5 A: 10? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You refer to the curve at East 11 Parkway Road and say: 12 "When I got there I saw approximately 13 eight (8) to ten (10) males standing on 14 the edge of the road." 15 Now that's a couple of days after your 16 radio transmission. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: And would you agree with me that 19 there has been, in terms of the estimate of the number of 20 individuals, a bit of inflation over the intervening few 21 days from the record made approximately at the time, in 22 the radio transmission? 23 A: Why do you say that? I don't 24 understand. 25 Q: Would you -- would you agree with me
1631 that your radio transmissions which says, Up to eight (8) 2 individuals -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- differs from, Approximately eight 5 (8) to ten (10) Native males, and it's gone up a bit? 6 A: I would agree with you it differs, 7 yes. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: I think I tried to make that clear 10 just a moment ago with respect to numbers. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And now this is September 12th, 1995, 13 I mean, you know, I'm sure I'm giving this my best 14 effort. 15 Q: Well, you didn't decrease the number, 16 you increased the number, right? 17 A: Well, sir, up to eight (8) and I said 18 just a -- several minutes ago, could have been nine (9), 19 and now I'm saying eight (8) to ten (10). 20 So I guess eight (8) to ten (10). If you 21 took nine (9) I'd be -- or you could -- you could take 22 eight (8), then I guess that would be in keeping with 23 what I said on September 6th. So -- 24 Q: But just so I -- 25 A: -- I guess the outer regions. It's
1641 ten (10) here and I didn't articulate that specifically 2 on the radio at the time but, again, my concern on 3 September the 6th at shortly after seven o'clock when I 4 was making that radio call, was not so much exactly how 5 many people were down there, it's that there were a 6 number of people down there, they were on public 7 property, a number of them were armed and that was a 8 problem. 9 Q: Just so I understand how you used 10 language then, when you said, Up to eight (8) 11 individuals, -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. Right. 13 Q: -- you meant it could be nine (9)? 14 Just so I understand -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you -- 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- how you 17 report things at that point. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, again, to 19 repeat, I said up to eight (8), I think. Now, like I 20 said to you, it was a minute I was there. I wasn't too 21 concerned -- my -- my concern wasn't to have everybody 22 stop in the parking lot so I could take a head count. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 24 THE WITNESS: That was the best I could 25 do in the situation that I found myself in.
1651 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 THE WITNESS: My -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 4 you've made about as much as you can out of that point. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'll move on, 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 9 Q: Then when you -- after you made this 10 radio transmission you travelled to the Command Post in 11 Forest, right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And you instructed Sergeant Korosec 14 to hold back the day shift. And whether that happened 15 before or after you got there -- 16 A: Right. 17 Q: -- you're not sure, but that's what 18 you did, right? 19 A: I was the person who did that, yes. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Absolutely. 22 Q: And then you went into the Command 23 Post. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to Tab
1661 18 which is the Command Post minutes of that -- Command 2 Post minutes at page 73? 3 A: Page 73, yes? 4 Q: Page 73 of Tab 18 which is Exhibit P- 5 426. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And if you could also hold two (2) 11 other documents at the same time, because I think there's 12 an overlap of several things happening. And one (1) is 13 the telephone conversation between yourself and Inspector 14 Wright at Tab 36, which is Exhibit P-428 (sic), region 15 44, transcript tab 49. And that's at Tab 36 of your 16 materials? 17 A: Yes, I've got it, sir. 18 Q: Okay. If you could just hold that, 19 and also... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: One (1) moment please. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1671 Q: It's Tab... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Sorry, Commissioner, I'll just take 6 one (1) second to locate this. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: If you look at Tab 30 -- I'm sorry, 11 Tab 18, page 73, we have at 19:55 the notation of the 12 radio report we just looked at or we've reviewed the 13 transcript of, right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And then at 20:02 we have Inspector 16 Linton and yourself and Rob Graham and Stan Korosec being 17 reported as -- as together -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- it would appear. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And Mr. Millar went through this in 22 some detail. I won't repeat all of that, but there is an 23 omission after the line: 24 "Dale Linton: Let's take over B team 25 with helmets and K-9."
1681 Right? And that's something that Mr. 2 Millar went through with you, right? And let me just ask 3 you to turn to that. 4 That's at command -- that's at Tab 19, 5 page 474. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: At page 474, Tab 19, which is the 14 handwritten command post notes, Exhibit P-427. 15 And about half way down the handwritten 16 notes at page 474, we find, and Mr. Millar went through 17 this with you: 18 "MW disagree - advised males to back 19 off into parks". 20 Is that right? Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that does not appear in the 23 typewritten version; is that right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And do you know who was taking the --
1691 the handwritten notes at that point? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And do you know who typed up the 4 handwritten notes into the typed form? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, I've looked very carefully at 7 the page and a half of handwritten notes or two (2) -- 8 page and a half that go before that, on September 6th 9 after 19:00, and I see a very, very close correlation 10 between the handwritten notes and the typewritten notes, 11 and then suddenly a whole line is missing. 12 And Mr. Millar asked you a bit about this. 13 Do you have any further explanation about why that 14 comment is omitted from the typewritten notes? 15 A: Well, I wasn't the -- what, "MW 16 disagree," that line? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Well I wasn't the author of the 19 scribe notes and I didn't type the written -- typed 20 scribe notes, so I -- I don't know how I could be of help 21 to you. 22 Q: All right. Well, my -- my question 23 relates to the fact that it includes the comment, "MW, 24 disagree." 25 I take it you're disagreeing with the
1701 previous comment which is: 2 "Dale Linton: Let's take over B team 3 with helmets and K-9." 4 Right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And so you're disagreeing with the 7 incident commander, right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And that is something I don't see 10 anywhere else commented in any of the notes, and would 11 you agree with me that for you to explicitly disagree 12 with your incident commander, raises questions about 13 whether you were appropriately working with incident 14 commander Linton at the time. 15 A: Well, what do you mean by that? What 16 -- I was appropriately working -- I don't understand 17 that, what that means. 18 Q: Well, my question was: Would you -- 19 would you agree that the reference here to you 20 disagreeing with your incident commander -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: -- especially when that doesn't 23 appear anywhere else in these notes, might raise concerns 24 about whether you're properly working with your incident 25 commander.
1711 A: No, I disagree with you. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: First of all, I -- I don't know if 4 you're suggesting there's something underhanded or 5 nefarious with respect to that line missing from the 6 written scribe notes, and if you are, I take issue with 7 that. 8 And number 2, as my position there, it's 9 my job at an incident such -- I'll talk about this 10 incident. My job would be to tell the incident commander 11 what I think is the appropriate action. 12 He or she would expect that from me, or 13 I'm not much good to them. You know, a good incident 14 commander does not want to hear their thoughts 15 regurgitated back at them. 16 They want everybody's input so that they 17 can make the best decision based on the situation that 18 they find themselves in, because if that's not the case, 19 then there's not much point for the rest of us to be 20 there. 21 Q: Well, let me ask about the rest of 22 the handwritten sentence that's missing from the 23 typewritten. It says: 24 "Advise males to back off into Parks." 25 Right?
1721 A: Right. 2 Q: Aside from the typo about Parks or 3 the -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- wrong 's'. Do you have any 6 independent recollection of advising something like this? 7 A: I recall having a conversation with 8 Linton in regards to this. I don't recall now, sir, if 9 it's independent or as a result of having read this. 10 I mean, I'm sorry I can't be much help -- 11 more helpful than that. 12 Q: And so can you help me if I ask what 13 -- what you meant by "advise males," if -- as it's 14 reported here? 15 Can you help -- 16 A: Well, I -- I -- my feeling is, and as 17 I've given evidence to, is that we should just tell them 18 to go back into the Park as opposed to -- I felt that 19 Linton's response was, I guess, fairly aggressive as -- 20 as compared to what I wanted to do at that particular 21 moment. 22 Q: So at this particular moment you 23 wanted to -- and advise them or tell them how? 24 A: I don't remember. 25 Q: Just pull up in a cruiser and --
1731 A: I -- I don't remember. 2 Q: All right. Well look -- you know, 3 what do you -- 4 A: I don't remember. It says -- I mean 5 there's not a lot of help here, it's a line, right? 6 Q: Right. 7 A: I mean, I -- I recall, like I said, 8 is that there's a -- there's a conversation between 9 Linton and I. He wants to go down there with K-9 and 10 officers with the helmets, and I'm suggesting we just 11 tell them to go back into the Park. 12 I mean, my -- my position was always, I 13 don't want you to misunderstand me, my position was 14 always, it comes down to, you know, there's a problem, 15 there's a threat to public order there and wouldn't it be 16 easier for them to go -- if they go into the Park we no 17 longer have a threat to public order. 18 And as I gave in my evidence in-chief, my 19 overriding concern at this particular moment, although it 20 -- it very quickly faded, was that I would like to be 21 done with this problem because I needed to go spend some 22 time preparing for the injunction. 23 And I felt that a very daunting task and I 24 wanted to get to that. 25 Q: Well, so if you say that you just
1741 wanted to tell them to get back into the Park, if we look 2 at the command post typed notes at page 73, several lines 3 -- in fact it's -- I'll count them, one (1), two (2), 4 three (3) -- three (3) lines down -- 5 A: From where? 6 Q: From where this comment ought to be 7 in the notes, we see: 8 "Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson 9 on telephone." 10 Right? 11 A: Mark Wright -- 12 Q: Let me go over that again. 13 A: Page 73? 14 Q: Page 73, you see the comment after 15 20:02 hours: 16 "Dale Linton: Let's take over B team 17 with Fox." 18 A: I got it. 19 Q: Do you see that? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Then -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: There is missing the sentence that 24 refers to: 25 "MW disagrees, advise them to go back
1751 into the Park." 2 That is where the comment appears in the 3 handwritten notes. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Then: 6 "Trevor Richardson arrived in meeting 7 reporting Brian Byatt reports lots of 8 activity in kiosk area. They took the 9 gas to fill the bus." 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Then: 12 "Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson 13 on telephone." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: All right. So let me switch to the 16 conversation with Inspector Carson -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- which is at Tab 36. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And you would agree with me that this 21 is where this happens, right? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Yes. Okay. And if we go to the -- 24 to the transcript of the conversation that you're 25 speaking on the phone with Carson.
1761 A: Right. 2 Q: On the second page which is labelled 3 3:15 you're saying and -- and keep going on the page as 4 you go to 3:18, you say near the bottom: 5 "Don't you say we go get those fucking 6 guys." 7 Right? 8 A: I said that. I don't -- what page 9 are you on again, 3 what? 10 Q: I'm at page 318 -- 11 A: Oh, 318. 12 Q: -- the bottom handwriting. 13 A: Yeah, I said that. 14 Q: Of -- of the transcript at page 36. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: There's a little bit of confusion 19 about the page numbering. 20 A: I'm there for -- if that's helpful. 21 Q: Yeah. You're there. Okay. Anyway, 22 it's the -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's on page 24 310, 310 of the copy that I have. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 310.
1771 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah, all 2 right. Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: Then it says: 6 "Don't you say we go get those fucking 7 guys?" 8 Right? 9 A: Oh, I'm not there. I'm still not 10 there. Sorry. Yes, I said that. Yes, there it is -- 11 Q: We know that that comment happened -- 12 it should be slotted into the typewritten notes at 13 seventy-three (73) at approximately where it says: 14 "Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson 15 on telephone." 16 Right? 17 A: It should be -- well, these are the 18 scribe notes. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: This is a telephone conversation. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: So telephone conversations aren't put 23 into scribe notes so I -- 24 Q: Okay, I -- 25 A: -- it shouldn't be slotted in.
1781 Q: Let's -- 2 A: I mean, these are two (2) different 3 animals here right? 4 Q: Let's take a step back. Would you 5 agree with me that the line that says -- in the -- in the 6 scribe notes, "Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson on 7 the telephone," is recording you speaking -- is -- is 8 noting that you are speaking with Carson? 9 A: Agreed. 10 Q: And so the -- the transcript we just 11 looked at records in more detail what's going on in that 12 sentence in the scribe notes, right? 13 A: Right, exactly. 14 Q: And I --I wanted -- it's an important 15 point because -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- I want to follow through because 18 as you've said during the transcript you keep referring 19 to what's going on in the Command Post right? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: So -- and in fact it gets more 22 complicated because there's radio transmissions coming in 23 so -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- I -- I'm going to take you through
1791 the -- 2 A: Sure. 3 Q: -- transcript with Carson, but three 4 (3) things are happening. There's stuff in the -- in the 5 Command Post being recorded in the Command Post notes 6 while you're speaking with Carson, while radio 7 transmissions are coming in right? 8 A: Sure. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: That's at least -- yeah, there's -- 11 Q: And I want to go through that because 12 I think it might be -- it might be useful. 13 But my first question to you is, it 14 appears from the omitted handwritten part that at one (1) 15 point you say, Let's go and advise them to go back in the 16 Park; we just looked at that right? 17 A: That's the handwritten notes right? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Then about three (3) lines later in 23 the typed -- typewritten notes -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- there's reference to the Carson
1801 call right? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And during that Carson call you say, 4 "Let's go get those fucking guys"? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Now, in cross-examination Inspector 7 Carson accepted that, "Go get those fucking guys" looked 8 like saying, Go arrest them. 9 Now, my question to you is: Is there an 10 inconsistency between you saying, Let's go and tell -- 11 advise them to go back in the Park and what appears to be 12 a few minutes later in the phone call saying, "Let's go 13 get those fucking guys"? 14 A: Well, no, because you're not taking 15 that in the context in which it took place. I was 16 talking to Linton and my position was as you said let's 17 just get them to go back in the Park and he wants to 18 arrest them. 19 Then immediately thereafter the Inspector 20 changes his mind and says, Well, let's wait to get to the 21 statement and if we don't have a statement identifying 22 who damaged the vehicle then they're not doing anything 23 wrong. 24 Hence my frustration with Inspector Linton 25 because as I've given in my evidence that I felt that
1811 there were a number of criminal offences taking place 2 there that we could deal with and in any event I felt 3 that what they were doing represented a definite threat 4 to the public safety and a breach of the peace and I 5 thought we should deal with that much like we did at 6 seven o'clock that morning when the picnic tables were 7 out there. 8 So when I got on the telephone and I spoke 9 to John that's -- don't you say we go get those fucking 10 guys has to be taken in context when prior to that he's 11 asking me what Dale wants to do and I -- and I apologize 12 for the profanity but I say: 13 "Oh, fuck, I don't know, waffle? I'll 14 be here or -- I'll be here until 15 fucking daylight figuring out and 16 daylight's a wasting." 17 And my -- the reason I say, Don't you say 18 we go get those fucking guys, is because of my obvious 19 frustration with Inspector Linton moving to a position 20 of, okay well, we're not going to do anything until we 21 get a statement that can identify these people as doing 22 something illegal. 23 And in any event what I meant by that was 24 we have to go deal with those individuals. Now -- and -- 25 and as I gave to Mr. Rosenthal whether or not they ran
1821 into the Park or they didn't run into the Park and we had 2 to arrest them, was fine with me either way. 3 I mean, the -- the least resistance would 4 be for them to run in the Park and that would have been 5 fine and I could be off to go studying for the injunction 6 the next morning. 7 But if they're going to stand there with 8 weapons in their hand, and we would have to effect 9 arrest, that would have been quite fine with me as well. 10 Q: Well, I'm going to ask you some more 11 questions about that. Just to be clear, so again, so I'm 12 asking about how you use language, when you say don't -- 13 are you saying that when you say, we -- "don't you say we 14 go get those fucking guys", you don't necessarily mean 15 get them, you mean deal with them some how? 16 A: Deal with the problem. 17 Q: All right. So if -- if I see that, 18 saying "get those fucking guys", I am mistaken if I 19 interpret that to mean you want to go and rest -- arrest 20 them? 21 I am mistaken, then, is that right? 22 A: I -- you know, again, sir, with all 23 due respect, I mean I said -- what I meant by that was 24 get rid of the -- deal with the problem, and if that 25 meant arresting them, fine.
1831 If that meant they were to run into the 2 Park, that was fine with me, too -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: So I guess it was, you know A) or 5 (B), one of the -- one of the -- and if it required an 6 arrest, that was fine with me. It -- something needed to 7 be done with those individuals there. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: So -- well, let's go back in the -- 13 in the transcript to a place where you say: 14 "they got about eight (8) of them with 15 baseball bats." 16 The second page of the transcript. 17 A: Of this particular transcript, yes. 18 Q: You see that? 19 "They got about eight (8) of them 20 with -- 21 A: Absolutely. 22 Q: " -- baseball bats." 23 A: Yeah. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1841 2 Q: When I questioned Inspector Carson 3 about this comment, he -- he -- he said that he 4 understood that to mean that all eight (8) of them had 5 baseball bats. 6 A: Sure. 7 Q: And would you agree with me that to 8 say they -- to say that they got about eight (8) of them 9 with baseball bats was an inaccurate way of describing 10 the situation? 11 A: Yes, but to be -- you know, I -- as 12 I've given in my evidence in-chief -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: -- now, I was speaking to 15 Inspector Carson and I was giving him a very quick run 16 over what was going on and there was information coming 17 over the command -- over the radio. 18 And if you -- and at one point in this 19 conversation, if you play the tape, you can see that I 20 pause, and I'm about to go back and try to explain things 21 to him, but things are happening so fast, as these things 22 happen, that I don't go back. 23 And if you look at -- I think it's 20:44 24 of the command post minutes, sir, you will see that I 25 tell John Carson that, John, there's about eight (8) of
1851 them there and four (4) of them have bats. 2 So, you know, I was alive that when I 3 spoke to him here, that I gave him this information and - 4 - and I wanted to go back, but circumstances dictated I 5 just didn't get to. But the moment I see him again, 6 that's when he returns to the command post and if you go 7 to the minutes, you will see it, I stop and I tell him, 8 look, this is what I saw. 9 So if he was -- if he was -- of a 10 misunderstanding at whatever time this telephone 11 conversation takes place, at my very next opportunity, I 12 make it crystal clear to him what it is I saw. 13 And again, that's about twenty (20) -- I 14 don't have it in front of me, but as I recall in my 15 review, it's about 20:44 of the minutes that we have a 16 conversation and I give that to -- 20:49 exactly. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 19 Q: The difficulty -- 20 A: If you go to page 76, sir. I'm just 21 trying to answer your question. 22 Q: Yes, yes, thank you. 23 A: It says: 24 "Mark Wright. I see eight (8) people 25 at the corner and at least four (4) had
1861 bats or something like that." 2 And that's to Carson at 20:49, and I don't 3 -- this is at -- that's my first opportunity to talk to 4 him, post telephone conversation. 5 Q: Well, the reason I ask these 6 questions, Inspector Wright, is I'm wondering whether 7 there's a series of inaccuracies here which get out of 8 control, and by 20:44 TRU has been called out, the head 9 of the CMU has been called out and the train is leaving 10 the station. 11 So I'm just looking -- 12 A: I -- 13 Q: -- at -- 14 A: I disagree -- I couldn't disagree 15 with you more. 16 Q: Well -- 17 A: I couldn't disagree with you more. 18 I've given that evidence in my evidence in-chief about a 19 number of radio reports coming in, the -- the facts, sir, 20 frankly, that there were eight (8) or ten (10) or six (6) 21 or seven (7) individuals there, and three (3) or four (4) 22 had bats or axe handles, at 7:30 at night, is not a fait 23 accompli for the CMU to move down at quarter to 11:00 or 24 10:30 at night that evening. 25 We don't work that way; we didn't, we
1871 still don't. There was additional information coming in. 2 It's not my call to send CMU down there in any event and 3 I think it's very clear in the evidence that there were a 4 number of things happened that -- and again, it's not my 5 call that CMU move down, that was Carson's call but I -- 6 I don't take issue with it, and -- and I agreed with that 7 move. 8 And there was no -- there's in my view 9 there's no misinterpretation of the evidence. With 10 respect to this particular piece of evidence, John 11 Carson, in my mind and I would think -- I don't know how 12 you would argue with this, at 20:49 or whatever I said, 13 was aware of what I saw down there. 14 But, you know, he's going to be aware of 15 everything else that's coming in at the command post 16 because he was there right with me. 17 Q: All right. Let's look at -- at 18 another -- another factor, another item you mentioned in 19 your call to Carson and that's the school bus. 20 In your mind the school bus was a factor 21 in the -- in the decision to send forces down to the 22 Park; is that right? 23 A: No. 24 Q: The school bus was not a factor. 25 A: Well, as I said, again in my evidence
1881 in-chief, that vehicles moving -- vehicles could have 2 moved back and forth and around the Park all night. The 3 -- and again, it wasn't my call for the CMU to move down 4 there so I don't know how it would be a factor for me 5 because it's not my call to make. 6 Q: Well -- 7 A: But CMU moved down the road because 8 of the threat to public safety as a result of the 9 individuals out in -- in -- on that parking lot area and 10 the road from the information being received back from 11 the Oscar teams in my opinion. 12 But I think you'd best ask Carson that, 13 why he sent CMU down there and I think he's given 14 evidence to that. 15 Q: Let's -- let's look at what you said 16 at the time, and again in the same transcript on the 17 second page. 18 A: Of -- where are we? 19 Q: Of -- of the conversation with Carson 20 at Tab 36. 21 A: Okay, yeah. Right. 22 Q: And the second page, three-quarters 23 (3/4's) of the way -- well, let me -- 24 A: This is at 19:58? Just so I'm -- 25 we're on the right place here.
1891 Q: Well that's an important point. It's 2 at 19:58 according to the beginning of the transcript. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: However when we -- when we look at 5 the typewritten notes which also cross reference at this 6 at Tab 18 -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's a seven (7) 8 minute delay of -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 20:05 is the 10 time I have. 20:05. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20:05. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 15 Q: The point I want to make in relation 16 to that is there is mention of this in both instances and 17 we want -- I want to suggest we need to keep them -- 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: -- keep them synchronized. But again 20 as we saw this conversation in the transcript is 21 mentioned in the command post notes, right? 22 A: Yeah. You've brought that to my 23 attention. 24 Q: All right. And if you could turn to 25 Exhibit P-1133 which is a radio transmission transcript
1901 of 8:04 approximately. And -- and I have a copy here. I 2 believe it was distributed earlier but just in case I 3 have an extra copy and I -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Is it Exhibit P-1133? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. And 6 perhaps if the Witness could be -- the Witness may have 7 it in the binders but I wasn't sure about that. 8 THE WITNESS: What -- what is it? 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Just for ease, 10 I wonder if it could provided to the Witness. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Right. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: And I'm just following up on what 17 you've said a number of times that various things were 18 happening at the same time and I want -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- to synchronise them because they 21 may be important. 22 A: Sure, yeah. 23 Q: So this conversation, Exhibit P-1133 24 appears to be a radio call coming in at about 8:04, 25 20:04; is that right?
1911 A: Right. 2 Q: And it's involved Lima 1 and Lima 2 3 and 2841. Do you know who 2841 is? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. But 2841 seems to be an 6 officer down by the Park area, right? That would be my 7 suggestion. If that's wrong just tell me. I'll -- 8 A: No. I would agree with you. Yeah. 9 Q: All right. The second line in this 10 transcript of 2841 says: 11 "Lima 1, were you aware -- aware 12 there's a school bus in this complex 13 down at the store?" 14 Right? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And then Lima 1 -- and is Lima 1 the 17 Forest Command Post or the TOC at this point? 18 A: Forest. 19 Q: Forest. Lima 1 says: 20 "That's affirmative 2841." 21 Meaning they were aware of that, right? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: So command -- Forest Command post is 24 -- is aware that the school bus is in the complex down at 25 the store; that's -- is that in the Park?
1921 A: Yeah, I -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yeah, that's what I take that to be. 4 Q: All right. And then, 2841 says: 5 "10-4. A group of people milling 6 around. It looks like they may be 7 planning something, just for your 8 information. Dump trucks moving and 9 they look -- and they, uh, look like 10 they're moving out towards the road." 11 A: Right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And then there's several more 16 exchanges and about eight (8) lines down, or about the 17 second from the bottom, Lima 1 says: 18 "The school bus and dump truck are 19 moving towards the roadway." 20 Right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: You see that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "Just for your info now." 25 Do you see that?
1931 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And if you turn to page 73 of the 7 command post notes. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You got that? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: We have the line: 12 "Rob Graham reports the Natives have 13 the dump truck and bus en route to the 14 kiosk area." 15 Right? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, I've got it, yeah. 20 Q: And would you agree with me that that 21 appears to be, in the command post notes, the record of 22 what I've just read from the radio call? 23 A: Agreed. 24 Q: Right. So the radio call from 2841 25 is saying the school bus and dump truck are moving toward
1941 the roadway, and that's recorded in the command post 2 notes? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And it's happening while you're on 5 the -- on the call with Carson, right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And, in fact, in your call with 8 Carson, you make a reference to the school bus, right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And on the second page of the 11 transcript you say the school bus is roaring around, 12 right? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: My Friend has suggested that there's 17 another call, as well, that's relevant, and I may get to 18 that, but I don't think my -- let me put it this way: 19 The radio calls are coming in, including this one about 20 the school bus and a dump truck, right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Now, what you say to Carson is, you 23 say, The school bus is roaring around, right? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Now, what I don't see in the radio
1951 transmission from the Park, any reference to a school bus 2 roaring around. 3 Now, would you agree with me that having a 4 school bus roaring around leaves a different impression 5 than a bus moving toward the roadway? 6 Roaring around sounds much more aggressive 7 and much more confrontational, doesn't it? 8 A: To who? 9 Q: To the listener, do you agree? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I was passing information on to 13 Carson. 14 Q: You were passing information along -- 15 A: That -- 16 Q: -- where -- 17 A: And the point here, sir, is that if 18 you continue on in the conversation between Carson and I, 19 my concern is not so much the type of vehicle that's 20 moving around, the fact is that it appears that it's 21 going to be coming out of the Park, because I say to him, 22 I want to know -- something along the line of, I want to 23 know the second it moves out onto the roadway. 24 It -- it -- I wasn't really concerned 25 about the type of vehicle as opposed to, you know, again,
1961 what happened in the Park was fine with me. 2 I mean, we had vehicles roaring around, 3 and I've given evidence to that, while I was down there 4 with Marg Eve, attempting to, you know, talk to the 5 people. 6 What went on down there and the cars that 7 were roaring around inside the Park, were neither here 8 nor there, as far as I was concerned. 9 The fact that these vehicles -- Zacher, I 10 think, was relaying that it appeared that they were going 11 to be coming through and onto the roadway, and that was 12 the concern. 13 Q: Well that -- that may be, but that's 14 not, and I'll get to that, but that's not what you say 15 here. You say to Carson, We've got a bit of a situation 16 here with a school bus roaring around. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Now are you telling me that the 19 school bus roaring around was of no concern to you, 20 because it doesn't sound like that from the transcript? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know how -- sir, 23 I'm -- I'm trying to answer your questions honestly and 24 I -- 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay.
1971 THE WITNESS: -- I just -- I don't 2 understand -- 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't understand your 5 question. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 9 Q: That -- that's fine. So when -- when 10 I read, "the school bus roaring around," your evidence 11 today is that that was of naught concern to you? 12 A: No, sure it was of concern. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: You -- you need only hear the -- my 15 voice on the radio. Again, my concern was that these 16 vehicles -- Zacher's telling me, and I mean if you listen 17 to the tape you -- you hear me stop. Zacher's saying 18 something and I'm feeding it directly to Carson. It's 19 raw intelligence coming right from the horse's mouth as 20 it were. 21 So I'm just giving what I'm getting, as 22 best I can, based on the situation that I find myself at 23 that time. And again, my overriding concern is, are 24 these vehicles -- and I -- it didn't matter to me what 25 kind of a vehicle it was, was it moving out onto the
1981 sandy parking lot? That was my concern. 2 Q: All right. Let's -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 Klippenstein, I'm going to need a break pretty soon. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I'm not 7 sure about the Witness. I don't want to break you right 8 in the middle of a point, but are you close to a point 9 where we can take a break? 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm just a 11 couple of questions away. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. I should have asked, I apologize. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 16 fine. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 19 Q: On the next page, Inspector Wright -- 20 A: Of -- of what -- the conversation 21 with Carson? 22 Q: That's correct 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Which is the -- the third page. We 25 have -- in the background we have the second entry, it
1991 says: 2 "Background. Okay -- okay the school 3 bus and the dump truck are looking like 4 they're moving toward the roadway now." 5 Right? Do you see that? 6 A: Is that page 308 that you have at the 7 bottom of your -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mine says 9 308 at the top. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: 308? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 14 Q: Do you see that? 15 A: Yeah, got it. 16 Q: Okay. And that is pretty much a 17 quote from the radio transmission transcript. 18 A: Yeah, that's not me saying that. 19 Q: I know, that's -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- the radio -- that's in fact the 22 radio in the background. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: So we have a direct interconnect 25 between the one (1) transcript we're looking at and the
2001 other transcript, right? 2 They're happening at the same time? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: You're talking to Inspector Carson 5 where the part I've just read to you is being -- is being 6 -- coming in on the Command Post and you -- 7 A: Right, that's right. 8 Q: -- you heard it on the phone? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: It's a direct connect, right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: So there's an interlock there and so 13 -- so the radio comes in and says the school bus and the 14 dump truck are looking like they're moving toward the 15 roadway. And then you say to Wright, you say: 16 "The school bus and the dump truck look 17 like they're moving towards the road 18 now, so they're going to try and take 19 that position again. We got that house 20 there." 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So it looks to me, Inspector Carson, 23 as if you have this information -- excuse me, Inspector 24 Wright, this information about a school bus and a truck 25 moving inside the Park, and you now are saying to
2011 Inspector Carson a conclusion that they're going to try 2 and take that position again. 3 And would you agree with me that when you 4 said, So they're going to try and take that position 5 again, you are suggesting to Inspector Carson that you 6 think the protestors are going to move out of the Park 7 and take over the parking lot; that's what you're saying 8 to him right? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: All right. 11 Q: That's what I'm thinking they're 12 going to do, yeah. 13 Q: All right. This would be a good 14 place to stop. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. We'll take a break now. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 18 for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 3:47 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed, please be seated. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir?
2021 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 2 wasn't sure earlier today but I -- I'm pretty sure now 3 that I don't think I'll finish today if we go until 5:00. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 5 go until you finish. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll stay 8 until you finish -- 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because I 11 do want to finish you today. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 13 That could be a while, but I'll see how it goes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you -- 15 you estimated four (4) to five (5) hours. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At five 18 o'clock it'll be almost five (5) hours. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll see 21 how you go -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 24 perhaps when we get to a quarter to 5:00 you can give me 25 an estimate of how much longer you've got to do.
2031 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. Right. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I was 4 talking to Mr. Klippenstein on the break. I had a 5 concern about evidence that he put to the Inspector and I 6 just wanted to raise my concern about it. 7 I believe that Mr. Klippenstein had 8 suggested that after Marlin Simon he had said that he 9 gave evidence that when he heard about an increased 10 police presence, he went and got more people. 11 I believe that was the proposition that 12 Mr. Klippenstein had started off with in asking the 13 Inspector a series of questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he made 15 that reference. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: And on September 30th - 17 - we had gone back to look at the transcript. Mr. Simon 18 had been asked specifically about when it was that he 19 went to get more people. 20 And what he said is, is that he had been 21 listening to the scanner. He had the sense from those 22 conversations that the police presence was increasing. 23 And then he says and this is on page 25: 24 "We heard -- like was it they 25 dispatched a TRU team."
2041 And the question was: 2 "Did you know at the time where the TRU 3 team was?" 4 And he goes onto explain that he does. 5 And then he's asked: 6 "What did you -- when did you hear this 7 information?" 8 And he says: 9 "Just about the time we started 10 listening to the scanner." 11 And then the question goes on to say: 12 "As a result of learning this 13 information, what, if anything, did you 14 do next?" 15 And he responds: 16 "I don't know, I kind of looked around 17 and didn't have very many people around 18 so I jumped in the car and went for a 19 ride up to the barracks to go see if I 20 could round up more people." 21 And Mr. Simon also says at page 208 of the 22 transcript that it's only then that he tells women and 23 children they ought to leave the built-up area. 24 So I was just concerned that there might 25 be a faulty impression about when it was that Mr. Simon
2051 or what it was he heard that triggered him getting more 2 people. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Ms. Jones. Does that help you at all, Mr. Klippenstein? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- I don't -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just leave 7 it on the record the way Ms. Jones has put it? 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'll leave it 9 on the record that there are various calculations that 10 can be made with various transmissions in various parts 11 of various people's evidence. 12 The -- the point was that there were 13 scanners and -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- people were 16 listening and people were taking them into account. I 17 actually, the last time we were here, drove up and down 18 that road to see how many minutes it would take to -- 19 having heard something on the scanner -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- somewhere 22 and so forth. But -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 24 We'll leave -- 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- it's a
2061 matter of -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it on the 3 record then, that's fine. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 8 Q: When we broke, Inspector Wright, I 9 had referred you to the part of the transcript of your 10 call with Inspector Carson where the background says: 11 "Okay, the school bus and the dump 12 truck are looking like they're moving 13 toward the roadway now." 14 Which we agreed seemed to be probably a 15 capturing of the actual radio transmission coming into 16 the command post. 17 And then you said: 18 "The school bus and the dump truck look 19 like they're moving towards the road 20 now, so they're going to try and take 21 that position again. We got the house 22 there." 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: When you said, 25 "So they're going to try and take that
2071 position again," 2 what evidence did you have for that? 3 A: I think I'm giving him my opinion as 4 to what I think they might be trying to do. 5 Q: Well that may be, you don't quite say 6 what the -- you don't use the word 'might,' you say: 7 "They're going to try and take that 8 position." 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: We can argue semantics and we can do 11 it many, many times -- 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: -- with the things you've said. Now 14 Inspector Carson will assume that you knew -- that you 15 know more than he does at that point because you're in 16 the command post and he's having dinner, right? 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: So when you say things like, "So 19 they're going to try and take that position again," and 20 you say it to Inspector Carson, he -- he doesn't know 21 what you know, right, by definition? 22 A: Regarding what? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 24 if that -- certainly that's not a question, I mean that's 25 a fact. He doesn't know what you know. Okay.
2081 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: My -- my point is that Inspector 5 Carson, or anybody else, is very vulnerable to taking 6 that position -- that statement very much in the wrong 7 sense, namely, 8 "So they're going to try and take that 9 position again," 10 the way you've expressed it. 11 Isn't that fair? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 13 Sandler? 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: I don't think that's 15 very fair when -- when in the very same transcript, John 16 Carson asks him, Are they coming out of the Park and say, 17 We don't know yet. 18 I mean, you got to read the entire 19 transcript, with great respect, before you allege that -- 20 that the Inspector Carson is being misled by something 21 that Inspector Wright says. 22 I just don't think it's fair to put that. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, but -- I 24 don't intend to be unfair but, Commissioner, we've heard 25 -- when My Friend, Mr. Sandler, last time played a bunch
2091 of tapes, I noticed he started with the tapes around nine 2 o'clock and played nine (9) tapes at nine o'clock, that 3 happened after nine o'clock. 4 Well, what I want to do -- try and do is 5 go through things a little more sequentially, because 6 things that happened later on weren't necessarily in 7 people's knowledge at the time and I want to be -- I want 8 to be sequential about it, in that sense. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: I absolutely agree 11 with My Friend, and he's entitled to try to show that at 12 this point in time certain things are happening, but my 13 point is, he's putting a suggestion, publically, to the 14 Witness, that Inspector Carson would be misled by the 15 comment that he just read out. 16 And I'm suggesting, if you just read on, 17 at 3:09, it's made abundantly clear what Inspector Wright 18 is and is not communicating to John Carson -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: I just don't think 21 it's fair to leave the impression -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- that John Carson is 24 somehow misled and then we've got the kind of -- this 25 juggernaut underway.
2101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At 3:09, 2 where is that? Where is that? 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: It says: 4 "JOHN CARSON: Are they --" 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but 6 where are you reading from because I'm confused? 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: The same transcript. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. At 9 page -- 10 MR. MARK SANDLER: The very same 11 transcript -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 309. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- of the 14 conversation. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, okay, 16 that's fine. 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: On the very next page. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: Where it says: 20 "We've got the school bus there, the 21 dump truck right there, moving towards 22 the roadway. 23 JOHN CARSON: Are they coming out of 24 the Park? 25 I don't know yet. We got any more --
2111 are they out?" 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: So with great respect 4 to put the previous portion, suggest it would misled John 5 Carson, we don't know what John Carson would take from 6 it, when we've got the very next page -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, thank 8 you, Mr. Sandler. 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- that is my point. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: A moment's 14 indulgence, if I may. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, 19 Commissioner, I apologise, but My Friend has raised the 20 issue of what Inspector Carson took from some of these 21 comments, and in questioning of Mr. Carson he made 22 pretty much the point -- the statement that My Friend 23 refers to, which was that Mr. Carson was unclear and had 24 a bit of a mental picture of vehicles coming out onto the 25 parking lot and the roadway.
2121 So that the -- the -- and this is a matter 2 for argument, but My Friend raises it, that that is 3 precisely the issue I'm trying to raise at this point 4 with this Witness and that wrong impressions could be 5 left and were left and that things went out of control. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All he asked 7 was for you to read the next page, that's all. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, he -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you read 10 the next page -- 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: He left -- he 12 raised quite a bit more and I -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 14 asked -- 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: referred to it 16 -- I'll move on. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 22 Q: Now, when Inspector Carson then asks, 23 a little bit later, "Are they coming out of the Park?", 24 your answer was, Inspector Wright: 25 "I don't know, we -- we got any more --
2131 are they out?" 2 And that was you turning around in the 3 command post and asking the people on the radio for 4 further information; is that right? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And if we look at the transcripts of 7 that -- and turning now to the radio side of what was 8 happening in the command post, we... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: We -- we have, in the last part of 13 the transcript, Lima 1 saying: 14 "If they move one (1) inch onto the 15 roadway, we have to be advised 16 immediately." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: You see that? 19 A: No. You didn't direct me to where 20 you are, so. 21 Q: The transcript -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's -- 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: -- I referred you to -- refer you to
2141 earlier -- 2 A: Okay, got it, right, yeah. 3 Q: 1113. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1133. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, thank you. 6 1133, I apologise, sir. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 9 Q: On the second page, near the -- the 10 end you see Lima 1 saying: 11 "If they move one (1) inch onto the 12 roadway, we have to be advised 13 immediately." 14 Right? 15 A: Right. I think that's a quote 16 directly from me. 17 Q: Correct. So, you are telling them -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- to watch for them coming onto the 20 roadway, right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Now, let me just go back a step, 23 before that, 2841 says: 24 "That's 10-4, ah..." 25 And this is again, 1133.
2151 "We're less than a quarter mile off, 2 and we've got a pretty good view of it. 3 They've stopped now, they're just 4 beside the building and we'll advise." 5 Right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: So the school bus which you 8 apparently have said earlier in this conversation was 9 roaring around, and which you then said was moving toward 10 the roadway which you repeated twice, has apparently come 11 to a stop, beside the building, right? 12 And that is not communicated to Inspector 13 Carson in this phone call. 14 A: Well, did I -- I don't know if I've 15 given evidence that I heard that. Did I hear that? 16 I don't recall ever giving evidence that I 17 heard them say this. 18 I was talking to John on the telephone. I 19 was listening -- you know, snippets of information were 20 coming to me. I don't know whether or not that's -- 21 that's something I knew or not. 22 But I mean, in any event, you know, the 23 conversation continues and Carson tells me to -- pushes 24 me back towards Linton in regards to that. 25 Q: Well, the point I'm saying -- I'm
2161 asking you about is it would appear that you referred to 2 the bus roaring around and heading for the roadway, but 3 when it stopped and it sat beside the building -- by the 4 way, how long did the bus stop and sit by that building, 5 do you know? 6 A: Who knows? 7 Q: For a long time, didn't it? 8 A: I have no idea. 9 Q: You have -- 10 A: No idea. 11 Q: -- no idea? So when it was moving, 12 you were referring to it roaring around. When it 13 stopped, you never advised Carson of that? 14 Maybe you didn't know about it, it doesn't 15 matter. My point is, he wasn't advised, right? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 17 THE WITNESS: I think it does matter. 18 That's not what you asked -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With 20 respect, if he doesn't know about it, how can he advise 21 him? 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: Well, that -- fair enough. You -- 25 whether you knew about it or not, in this conversation,
2171 you did not advise Inspector Carson that the school bus 2 had stopped, right? 3 A: Clearly. 4 Q: Right. So Inspector Carson did not 5 know, at least not from you in this conversation, that 6 the school bus which you said earlier was roaring 7 around -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- was now stopped and it was stopped 10 inside the Park? 11 A: Sir, I said -- agreed and I would 12 suggest to you that Inspector Carson was busy considering 13 other things, based on the rest of this conversation that 14 him and I had. 15 Q: Well, you can't have it both ways. 16 If the school bus roaring around is a concern to you and 17 then it stops, isn't that a de-escalation? 18 A: Well, I think -- you know I'd hate to 19 -- I mean, I don't know if I knew that it stopped. 20 Q: Well -- 21 A: Did I know that? I mean, there's 22 nothing that suggests -- you -- you're giving me a radio 23 transcription. I appreciate that I'm right there and -- 24 but I don't -- I don't give that information to John but 25 I don't know if I heard that.
2181 I mean, how can I say that I heard that? 2 You're -- you're suggesting that I knew this information 3 and I -- I decided not to give this information to him 4 for whatever reason might have been going through my mind 5 at that particular moment and I -- I take issue with 6 that. 7 I was -- I think it's clear if you listen 8 to the tape that as -- the best -- I'm doing the best 9 that I can. When I'm getting information, I'm telling 10 him. 11 What my concern is, are they coming out 12 into the parking lot or are -- are they not coming out. 13 Whether or not it's stopped I guess is not -- is -- you 14 know the -- the fact is, is it coming out onto the 15 roadway or is it not coming out on the roadway. 16 You're the one suggesting that because the 17 -- I -- I said that the vehicles were roaring around is - 18 - is an escalation or whatever it is you'd like to call 19 it and I've continually said that that's not my point. 20 My point was it didn't matter to me what they were doing 21 in there. My concern was once they started to move 22 towards the roadway. 23 So whether the bus was moving or not 24 moving in amongst the Park really is neither here nor 25 there as long as it's not moving towards the roadway.
2191 Q: All right. So when earlier in the 2 conversation you said the school bus was roaring around 3 you were chit chatting; it was of no relevance, it wasn't 4 important -- 5 A: Well, no. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 7 THE WITNESS: Of course it's -- we're not 8 chit chatting, I'm trying to give him an idea of what's 9 going on here is that -- 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 12 Q: Right, so -- 13 A: -- there's -- there's vehicles moving 14 around and I'm explaining to him what's going on, but I 15 mean then -- then the question again moves to well, are 16 they coming out. 17 And I don't know and I tell the guys and 18 it's clear in the log that it's relayed immediately to 19 those officers that we want to know the moment it comes 20 out; that's what's important to me; that's my order 21 through the Comm Centre to that car that I want to know 22 the second it moves out onto the roadway; that's what is 23 of -- of a concern to me; that's the paramount concern. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2201 2 Q: And... 3 A: If I -- and if I can help you, I mean 4 if you look on the conversation a little bit farther on, 5 clearly Carson isn't too awful concerned because the next 6 thing he says is he wants to meet me at 9:15 later on 7 that evening so we can brief about the injunction. 8 So you know I don't know how you can make 9 the leap that because of this particular conversation 10 John Carson is of the opinion that things are spinning 11 out of control down there or escalating or whatever it is 12 you were suggesting because it's not until I hear Linton 13 say he's calling out the TRU team does -- does it take a 14 turn. 15 Q: Well, isn't it -- isn't it a little 16 different? It's -- what Carson in fact did was push you 17 back to Linton? Carson said it's his problem right? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Now, but what we -- what -- Carson 22 did not say that he was unconcerned about it did he? 23 A: Did he specifically say that? No, he 24 did not specifically say that. 25 Q: Or words to that effect? No?
2211 A: No, he did not. 2 Q: All right. But as you say when the 3 conversation continues... 4 A: Right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: But before I ask you that let me go 9 back to the statement: 10 "They are going to try and take that 11 position again." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Would you agree with me that there 14 was no evidence to your knowledge received from OPP 15 intelligence or observation or anything else at that 16 point in time on the evening of the 6th that there was a 17 collective plan or a group intention on the part of the 18 occupiers to take over that parking lot that night? 19 A: No, there was -- we didn't -- I was 20 giving him -- as I said, I was giving my feeling about 21 what was going to take place based on the history of what 22 had taken place there at seven o'clock that morning, 23 September 6th, with the picnic tables; hence the -- they 24 were trying to take -- they were going to try and take 25 that again I think is what I say, wherever that is.
2221 And that's why I said what I did. 2 Q: All right. Let me -- you didn't 3 quite answer my question which was, and I'll try and -- I 4 think it was clear but I'll try and be more. 5 There was no -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 7 answered it -- 8 THE WITNESS: I said -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 10 first part of his answer answered your question and then 11 he went on and said something else. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, if he -- 13 if he said no, then -- just so I'm clear. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 15 did; did you? 16 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. Yes, Your Honour, 17 I did. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 19 did. 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 23 Q: So -- so you're saying to the 24 Incident Commander that they're going to try and take 25 that position again --
2231 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- when you have no basis for that in 3 evidence or -- or intelligence from all the rest of the 4 OPP officers? 5 A: You don't need evidence to speak to 6 my Incident Commander, sir. 7 Q: Well -- 8 A: Giving him my -- my feeling about 9 what I think is going to take place. And as I've -- as 10 I've said, that's my job to let him know what I think's 11 going to happen. We don't work in a vacuum there. 12 Q: Is it your job to take -- to tell the 13 Incident Commander that they're going to try and take 14 that position again without having any intelligence 15 information whatsoever to back it up? 16 A: Sir, things are happening, it's a 17 dynamic situation, you know, listen to the tape and you 18 will see that things are happening, are unfolding by the 19 second. One doesn't need an OPP intelligence unit to 20 come to a conclusion about what -- when things might 21 happen so that I can pass it onto Inspector Carson. 22 I mean, what more could an OPP 23 intelligence unit tell me that I needed to know to pass 24 that information on. That was my feeling about what I 25 thought was going to take place. Now Inspector Carson
2241 can either take that or leave it. 2 And I had -- I had, and I still do, have 3 overwhelming confidence in Inspector Carson as an 4 Incident Commander. I was feeding him the information 5 that I felt he needed to know, based on what I thought 6 might happen. What he did with that was up to him. 7 Q: Well I'm wondering, Inspector Carson 8 [sic] whether what we have here is a made up emergency 9 that was fabricated in your head? 10 You've just said that you were passing on 11 to him the information he needed to know. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: You've admitted there was no 14 intelligence information at all that night of a 15 collective or a group plan to takeover that position that 16 night. And are you telling me that's all that Inspector 17 Carson needs for his decision, is your feelings, with no 18 back-up? 19 A: What are you talking about? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 21 what that question -- how that question is in any way -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: Well let me -- let me go back. You - 25 - you -- you agreed that there was no evidence or
2251 information suggesting that there was a collective plan 2 on the part of the occupiers to takeover that position 3 that night. You -- you agreed with that, correct? 4 A: Sure, that we didn't have raw -- 5 absolutely confirmation that they were going to take 6 that -- 7 Q: Don't -- don't use the word 8 'absolute,' I asked for 'any.' Do you have any -- did 9 you then? 10 A: No. That was my -- because I felt 11 that they were going to do that, based on what I said -- 12 Q: You felt they were going to do it? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: You felt that? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: All right. And so you were passing 17 on your feelings to Inspector Carson, right? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Sandler? 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: He has now said a half 21 dozen times -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- that his feelings 24 were based upon the history of what had happened there 25 and what he saw was going on. If My Friend does not
2261 accept that as a valid basis to pass it on to the 2 Incident Commander, he'll have a wealth of opportunities 3 to argue that before -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- I don't know how 6 this cross-examination is furthering your role, 7 ultimately. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 9 either and that's why I'm hoping that it is going 10 somewhere. But it doesn't help to ask the same question 11 again and again and get the same answer either. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well My Friend 13 Mr. Sandler has mentioned in broad general terms of 14 history and all that. I -- I am trying to understand 15 whether we're dealing with a fantasym (phonetic) here or 16 what -- what exactly is the information, the facts and 17 details. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 19 testified as best he can, Mr. Klippenstein. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. All 21 right. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can make 23 whatever argument you want at the appropriate time. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2271 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 3 Q: And then we hear in the -- the end of 4 this conversation that -- well, this is at the second 5 last page of the transcript. 6 You say: 7 "He's calling out TRU." 8 Right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And we have Inspector Carson saying: 11 "What?" 12 Right? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Now you say he's calling out TRU 15 because you heard something to that affect in the command 16 post where you are, right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And indeed, Inspector Linton had 19 given instructions that TRU be called in, correct. 20 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 21 Q: Now, my understanding, from all the 22 evidence we've heard so far, is that -- including 23 Inspector Linton's statement, that he called out TRU for 24 the purposes of making arrests. 25 Is that your understanding?
2281 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. All right. So -- and is it 3 fair to say that -- well, let me put it this way: To 4 your knowledge, he didn't call out TRU to push people 5 back into the Park or to give them a verbal warning, he 6 called out TRU to make arrests, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And it's -- it's pretty 9 clear that making arrests in a non high risk situation is 10 not what TRU is for, right? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: That's not -- that's not what they're 15 used for -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- agreed. 18 Q: So just so we're clear, for Inspector 19 Linton to instruct that TRU should be called out was a 20 mistake, right? 21 We have to be frank, it was a mistake. 22 A: Yeah, I'm -- I'm trying to -- for -- 23 in 1995, my personal opinion was, to use a tactical 24 rescue unit to effect arrests on people in that area was 25 an inappropriate use of the tactical team.
2291 Q: It -- it was a mistake, right? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 THE WITNESS: It was an inappropriate 4 use. He was the incident -- my position was it was an 5 inappropriate use of those officers. 6 I mean, I don't -- I don't know if it -- I 7 don't know if I would go so far as to say it was a 8 mistake. I think it was an inappropriate use of those -- 9 you just don't use those officers for that -- that type 10 of activity. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 13 Q: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Actually, before I go on, let me 18 digress backwards for a second. 2841, in the transcript 19 that we discussed at some length, of the radio call, you 20 don't need to look it up, I just want to ask you this. 21 They say: 22 "We're less than a quarter mile off, 23 and we've got a pretty good view of 24 it." 25 Meaning the bus or meaning the -- I guess
2301 the bus and the dump truck. 2 Do you know where 2841 was located? 3 A: No, I don't, sir, sorry. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Okay. My Friend has been of 8 assistance, Mr. Sandler, and advises that that's the 9 marine unit. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And if that's -- if that's -- that's 12 accurate, as I assume it is, that would mean this 13 observation was made from the boat. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And they would be, then, if they say 21 less than a quarter mile off -- they would be out in the 22 water, and I guess the total distance would be, in their 23 view, less than a quarter mile to the bus, I guess. 24 A: That's what it appears. 25
2311 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Let me ask about the use of the TRU 4 team to make arrests or -- or for deployment for the 5 purposes of making arrests. 6 If I could refer you to your handwritten 7 notes. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Which is Exhibit P-1086. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page, 14 Mr. Klippenstein? 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm going to 16 referring to page 82. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 82? 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 23 Q: And beginning on page 81 we have the 24 time indicator of 19:55, which is 7:55 p.m. on September 25 6th; is that right?
2321 A: Right. 2 Q: And then you talk about the Command 3 Post, about Sergeant Korosec and the ERT teams. On the 4 page -- on the next page, page 82 you talk about, about a 5 third of the way down: 6 "Staff Sergeant Lacroix given explicit 7 instructions by Inspector Carson not to 8 enter Park but to move those Natives, 9 now on the roadway and road allowance, 10 back into the Park." 11 Then you record a discussion with 12 Detective Sergeant Richardson regarding possible criminal 13 offences. They -- they would be: (1) Possession of 14 weapons dangerous to public peace by those with weapons, 15 and (2) mischief, right? 16 And then you say: 17 "If possible, arrests would be made of 18 individuals before they entered the 19 Park." 20 Right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And I take it you wrote this on 23 September 7th? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: All right. Now, we have two (2)
2331 things going on here. We have Lacroix and the CMU moving 2 in, right, but we have -- 3 A: Moving in? 4 Q: Moving toward -- 5 A: In my -- 6 Q: Moving towards the Park or -- or 7 going to be moving towards the Park. I don't mean to 8 be... 9 A: No, I think -- well, if you're 10 talking about my notes I think we have -- Staff Sergeant 11 Lacroix has been contacted to lead CMU. He's not even 12 there yet according to my notes. 13 Q: All right. So this is -- 14 A: Right. 15 Q: -- chronologically -- I apologize. 16 This is chronologically taking place then before -- 17 before CMU has moved out? 18 A: Yeah. Yeah. 19 Q: And this is -- and, in fact, lower 20 down in that -- on that page I see the one (1) liner or 21 the two (2) liner: 22 "CMU kitting up in garage." 23 Right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Which means they're putting on their
2341 shields and helmets and so forth -- 2 A: Their gear, yeah. 3 Q: -- in the garage at Forest, right? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Now, just before that entry you have 6 this paragraph describing your discussion with 7 Richardson, and the last sentence is: 8 "If possible, arrests would be made of 9 individuals before they entered the 10 Park." 11 Right? Now, again, that language suggests 12 to me that you consider it desirable to arrest them, if 13 possible, before they enter the Park. 14 A: Well, you'd be wrong. 15 Q: But then I'm misreading what you 16 wrote down; is that right? 17 A: Yes. Yes. 18 Q: All right. So when you used the 19 words, "If possible, arrests," you don't mean that that 20 is something that should be attempted as a goal, right? 21 A: No, what I meant is that if there are 22 going to be arrests made, they would have to take place 23 before they entered into the Park. We were not going to 24 follow individuals -- again, I've given this in my 25 evidence-in-chief, that, you know, there were a number of
2351 individuals committing offences at that time. 2 So to go down there we would be -- the 3 officers would be in a position where they have found 4 committing -- these individuals committing a number of 5 criminal offences and that were arrestable in nature, 6 however, we weren't going to -- we weren't going to 7 pursue them within the Park boundaries to make the 8 arrests. 9 Q: All right. Well, I understand the 10 part about them not being pursued into the Park because 11 the words say, "before they entered the Park." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: But I'm having a little difficulty 14 with the first few words and... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: ...the words, "if possible," suggest, 19 to me anyway, that it is something to be sought if it can 20 be attained. 21 A: Well, again, sir, I just -- they're 22 my notes and I disagree with you. It's -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: You know, if the possibility exists 25 that there's arrest that -- if there have to be arrests,
2361 then those would have to take place prior to them going 2 into the Park, because, again, you've drawn the attention 3 to it yourself, is that Staff Sergeant Lacroix given 4 explicit instructions by Inspector Carson not to enter 5 the Park. 6 So -- but, To move the Natives, now on the 7 roadway and road allowance, back into the Park, and that 8 falls before the next paragraph with respect to the 9 arrests. 10 So, it's all part and parcel that, you 11 know, if they run back into the Park, fine, but if they 12 don't, then they're going to be arrested. 13 But that -- those arrests will take place 14 prior to them going into the Park. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: If I ask you to turn to Tab 18, which 19 is the typewritten notes of the binder which, again, 20 are -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- exhibit P-426 and page 79. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2371 Q: This is a -- did I say the 2 handwritten notes? I may have said -- I meant 3 typewritten notes at Tab 18, at page 79, and beginning, 4 actually, on page 78. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: At the top of page 78 there's an 9 entry for 21:28, which is 9:28 p.m.; is that right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the first paragraph -- actually, 12 there's three (3) paragraphs under that heading and the 13 last one says: 14 "Mark Wright: Let's arrest all for 15 mischief that are there." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Well I'm having a little difficulty 19 understanding that, because it certainly seems to me to 20 be an expression by you that it is desirable, as a goal, 21 to arrest them all for mischief. 22 A: That's an arrest -- we can arrest 23 them for mischief if they -- if they're -- when we get 24 there, when the CMU gets there, whomever's going down 25 there gets there -- I don't know if CMU has -- that
2381 decision's been made yet or not. I -- I'm not sure. 2 But in any event, if we get down there and 3 they don't move into the Park, then we're going to arrest 4 them for mischief. 5 Q: All right. So if I -- if I say -- if 6 I interpret this, just the way I interpreted the words, 7 "if possible, arrest --" 8 A: Right. 9 Q: "-- Let's arrest," as you stating 10 something that you'd like to have accomplished, you're 11 saying I'm mistaken? 12 A: Yes, I'm -- you're mistaken, sir. 13 It's quite -- there -- you know the -- the message is 14 clear to Lacroix, and everybody else, that those people 15 are a threat to public safety and that they're to be 16 moved back into the Park so we have status quo. 17 Now, if we get down there and they don't 18 move into the Park, then, clearly, they're going to have 19 to be dealt with. And I was the detective staff sergeant 20 down there, so I am suggesting, as is my responsibility, 21 one of my responsibilities, to explain to them that, you 22 know, you can clearly arrest them for mischief. 23 I could have said breach of the peace, and 24 I may have said it but it wasn't captured here, who 25 knows? But in any event, those who failed to go back
2391 into the Park would be subject to arrest, because one way 2 or another, that Park was going to be cleared. 3 Either they go into the Park or we were 4 going to affect arrests. But that was going to be dealt 5 with. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: In my opinion. 8 Q: And -- and yet we also know that just 9 after eight o'clock Inspector Linton called the TRU team, 10 specifically to make arrests, right? 11 A: Hmm -- 12 Q: We've just -- we've just covered 13 that. 14 A: Yeah, I -- that -- well, I don't know 15 if it's eight o'clock -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 17 minute. I see Ms. Jones on her feet, but I'm not sure 18 why it's necessary to ask that question at this point. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 20 I don't think there's any evidence that TRU was called to 21 make arrests at that point in time. 22 My understanding of the scribe notes, and 23 certainly of the evidence to date by Inspector Wright, 24 was there was some discussion by Inspector Linton -- 25 between he and Inspector Linton about what to do.
2401 But certainly TRU wasn't called out to 2 make arrests, ever. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 4 right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 9 Q: Inspector Wright, if you could turn, 10 in the supplementary Volume that I've provided to you, 11 it's page 45. We have a transcript between -- of a 12 telephone conversation between Inspector Linton and 13 Inspector Carson. 14 Do you see that? 15 A: I do. 16 Q: Taking place at about 8:17 p.m. and 17 I'm not sure if that needs to be adjusted for the -- for 18 the timing. 19 But near the bottom of the page, and this 20 is Carson calling in Linton and once Carson has found out 21 that TRU is being activated, right? 22 So Carson says: 23 "Okay. Uh you were saying you were 24 calling out TRU? 25 LINTON: Yeah.
2411 CARSON: What are you going to do with 2 them? 3 LINTON: Well TRU is probably going to 4 end up going in and doing an arrest." 5 Right? 6 A: Sir, I would agree with you. My 7 position was that I understood that Linton was going to 8 use the TRU team to affect arrest. That's what I 9 understood. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: That's what I thought he was going to 12 do with them. 13 Q: And in that position, was his 14 position just shortly after eight o'clock it would 15 appear? 16 A: Yeah. Certainly by 20:17 it's his 17 position. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now at some point in -- in some of 22 the conversations with Linton and I don't need to get 23 into the details, he refers to the original plan being to 24 send ERT in to -- to make arrests and then switching it 25 to TRU.
2421 Does that -- do you have any quarrel with 2 that? 3 A: I don't recall but I -- I'm sure, you 4 know, if that's what you say that's what is in here then 5 I'm -- I'm fine with that. 6 Q: Okay I won't take up time with 7 referring to the transcripts. 8 And yet we have the paradox that -- that 9 in fact at first Inspector Linton didn't want to send in 10 anybody at all, did he? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: He wanted to wait for more 13 information, right? 14 A: Well at first he wanted to send the 15 officers in with helmets and a K-9 and then he didn't 16 want to do anything, then he wanted to use TRU, is -- is 17 the way it goes down. 18 Q: Right. And I'm going to suggest to 19 you that the reason Inspector Linton decided to go and 20 attempt arrest in particularly -- well to attempt to 21 arrest, was because that's what you wanted him to do? 22 A: Well, sir, you know, I mean when he 23 calls out TRU team in order to what we agreed is to 24 affect arrest, I'm on the telephone with Inspector 25 Carson. So, you know, he's come to that conclusion on
2431 his own. 2 And obviously with me because I'm speaking 3 to John Carson when Linton makes that leap to use TRU to 4 go affect arrests so... 5 Q: I'm not suggesting that you advocated 6 to TRU. 7 A: Well, I thought that's what you said. 8 Q: I -- what I -- what I said in my 9 question or asked in my question was whether Inspector 10 Linton decided to go and do arrests -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- because you wished him to. You 13 wanted to send for arrests? 14 A: No. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He can't answer that 16 question. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, I 18 don't see how he can answer that question, Mr. 19 Klippenstein. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: If you could take the binder that we
2441 supplied with additional documents and -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- turn to the statement of Huntley 4 on page 132 which is Inquiry Document 1000332. At page 5 132 of this binder that we provided. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And I 7 anticipate, Commissioner, this will be the evidence of -- 8 of Officer Huntley. 9 THE WITNESS: Are you in -- I'm sorry, 10 sir, but are these handwritten notes? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 13 Q: No. 14 A: Oh. 15 Q: These are the typewritten statement 16 of Huntley at 1:32 in -- 17 A: Then we have a problem. 18 Q: -- in the supplementary binder. 19 A: That you gave me? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: I think there is a numbering -- 23 A: I've got 13 -- 24 Q: You may have 131A or 131 in the 25 series.
2451 A: There's a -- I'm a little con -- see 2 it goes... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Thanks. My apologies. I -- 7 Q: Got it? 8 A: It's been located for me. 9 Q: Pardon me? 10 A: It's been located for me. 11 Q: Oh good. This again is the statement 12 of -- anticipated statement of Officer Huntley. It's 13 Inquiry Document 1000332. And I'm trying to see how to 14 save time on this but if you look at the last two (2) 15 paragraphs on the first page he is describing what 16 happened on the morning of the 6th, after the picnic 17 tables were removed. 18 And he says: 19 "I spoke to Fred Hannahson who lives 20 next to the road allowance after the 21 barricade was removed." 22 And from your own experience you know that 23 Hannahson is the -- is the house next to the parking lot. 24 A: Yeah, I know that now, yeah. 25 Q: Right. And it's literally adjacent
2461 to the parking lot. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And the driveway coming from the 4 Hannahson property basically is right onto the parking 5 lot at the corner there, right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Is very close the Park, right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: "I spoke to Fred Hanna -- Fran 10 Hannahson who lives next to the road 11 allowance after the barricade was 12 removed. She expressed concern for her 13 safety and she also advised she 14 witnessed the cruisers being pelted by 15 rocks the night before. I then had 16 Checkpoint A moved to the corner of 17 Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive. 18 This was located at the base of 19 Hannahson's driveway. 20 I stopped by this checkpoint throughout 21 the day and witnessed numerous acts of 22 harassment by the Natives inside the 23 Park. I observed numerous young males 24 carrying clubs as they walked along the 25 fence. They also had young children
2471 reflecting sunlight into our officers' 2 eyes using large mirrors. 3 Checkpoint A was pulled back when the 4 night shift replaced day shift to 5 protect the officers from objects being 6 thrown at them." 7 Now, my -- my question -- questions to you 8 relate to the timing of this and how it fits in with your 9 time spent down at the parking lot on the evening of the 10 6th. 11 According to the anticipated evidence of 12 Officer Huntley there was a checkpoint -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually this is -- is 14 not the anticipated evidence. We've called -- provided - 15 - this is a statement that My Friend anticipates he will 16 give the same evidence as in the statement, just to make 17 it clear for the record. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Millar. To be distinguished from the statement -- 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of 22 anticipated evidence that we provide. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Sorry, I -- I 24 apologize -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
2481 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- for tripping 2 on the terminology. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: But according to this description, as 6 a result of what happened on the morning of the 6th at 7 the parking lot, a checkpoint was set up right there at 8 the corner for the rest of the day, right? 9 A: Looks that way, yeah. 10 Q: Okay. Now, you never saw that 11 yourself, did you? 12 A: I don't recall it, no. 13 Q: Okay. But when he says this was 14 located at the base of Hannahson's driveway -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- if you can mentally picture that, 17 that's -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- right close to the Park, right? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: It's just a few yards away, right? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: So there would have been a checkpoint 24 all day there, right next to the Park, according to this? 25 A: For some period of time, according to
2491 this, yeah. 2 Q: Right. Now, he says that was pulled 3 when the night shift was replaced, which would have been 4 7:00-ish, give or take, is that -- 5 A: Yeah. He's got to be mistaken. 6 Q: How so? 7 A: Because I was there at that corner on 8 the night of September 6th -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- and I would have had to have 11 driven right through that checkpoint, and I don't recall 12 those guys being -- those officers being there. 13 Q: Well, I'm wondering whether, when you 14 went to the MNR parking lot, you either went around the 15 other way, not down this corner, or else...? 16 A: No, that's not my recollection. I -- 17 I'm sure I went -- 18 Q: So you went around the corner? 19 A: Because I would be coming from Port 20 Franks, right? 21 Q: Right. 22 A: So -- and -- and I was told -- we've 23 got a logger tape that they say they're looking for me 24 and I'm looking for a meeting and somebody says, Yeah, 25 they're meeting down at Lima 2, and I say, Yeah, okay,
2501 fine, I'm on my way. 2 So it wouldn't make sense for me to go by 3 East Parkway and go down to the next concession block and 4 turn -- I mean it would just -- it wouldn't make any 5 sense -- 6 Q: Well -- 7 A: -- because of where I'm coming from. 8 Q: All right. I don't mean to get lost 9 in the details. I understand what you're saying. But, 10 in theory, either contrary to what you are thinking now, 11 you -- you went around the other way or else the 12 checkpoint had already been pulled by the time you drove 13 by the curve? 14 A: I don't recall a checkpoint being at 15 that curve, sir. Certainly, I came back that way -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- eastbound on East Parkway and I 18 didn't -- I don't recall ever running into a checkpoint. 19 Q: Right. But whatever the case, there 20 was a checkpoint very close to the Park which was pulled 21 back -- 22 A: Sometime. 23 Q: Sometime apparently late in the day. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And -- and do you know to where it
2511 was pulled back? 2 A: No, I'm sorry, I can't help you. 3 Q: All right. But it appears from the 4 description by Officer Huntley that there were concerns 5 that the occupiers would throw things at the checkpoint 6 police during the night, right? It's what it appears. 7 A: No, I don't think he's saying that. 8 I think he's saying -- 9 Q: He says in the last -- 10 A: Yeah, right, right, right. 11 Q: That's what he -- 12 A: That's what he says, yeah. 13 Q: Yes, yeah. And from you visualizing 14 it, if the checkpoint was at the base of Hannahson's 15 driveway, that's very close; that's within tossing 16 distance, isn't it? 17 A: Oh, sure, yeah. 18 Q: Yes. Now, my question to you is: As 19 far as you know, there was no alternative plan to put in 20 place -- that was put in place to replace Checkpoint A at 21 the end of the day on the 6th, to keep an eye on the 22 Natives at the parking lot, for the evening and night, or 23 to protect the parking lot, right? 24 A: Well, the checkpoints -- there were 25 four (4) checkpoints, as I'm sure you are aware.
2521 Q: Yes. 2 A: And -- and the standard operating 3 procedure was that the day shift was going to go off and 4 the night shift was going to go on and those checkpoints 5 would be in -- in place during the night. 6 And where -- and then Linton would be in 7 charge. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: Where he put them what -- I mean, I 10 wouldn't be there, so I wouldn't know, but they'd be -- 11 you know, in and -- there would be two (2) on East 12 Parkway and two (2) on Army Camp Road. 13 Q: Right. But what Officer Huntley 14 seems to be saying is there was one (1) put there right 15 at the parking lot at the Park all day and it was pulled 16 back. And so there was -- and there was nothing there 17 when you came by, right? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Right. So -- and you know of no 20 plans, in your debriefings or transitions at the time, at 21 the end of the shift, that there was any plan to put a 22 checkpoint back there near the parking lot? 23 A: That day? 24 Q: Yeah -- that evening. 25 A: Well, we --
2531 Q: Other than what happened -- 2 A: It kind of went beyond -- I mean, 3 isn't that kind of -- I don't know how to answer that 4 other than to say it comes -- becomes somewhat of a moot 5 point because of what happened, right? 6 Q: It's -- my question wasn't quite 7 clear in the circumstances. 8 In the -- in the entire period of the 9 evening of the 6th, you were not aware, I take it, that 10 there were any plans to put a, quote, unquote, normal 11 checkpoint back -- 12 A: On the evening of the 6th? 13 Q: Yes. Similar to what checkpoint A 14 had been there. 15 A: Hmm -- 16 Q: I realize things developed very 17 quickly but -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: I would have -- that wouldn't have 21 been something that would have been a concern of mine, 22 because I'd be off duty, if that's helpful. 23 Q: But -- and it also follows from what 24 we've -- what we hear from Officer Huntley, and you can 25 relate to this yourself, having been there, that the
2541 people in the Park would have seen a checkpoint there all 2 day, pretty much in their face, almost, at the parking 3 lot, right? 4 A: Sure. 5 Q: It was very visible there. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: It would be. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And then it was, apparently, pulled 10 back and disappeared, as far as you know, right? 11 A: Well, I think it was pulled back -- 12 there was always two (2) checkpoints on the East Parkway 13 and two (2) on Army Camp Road. 14 Where specifically they were, I'm not in a 15 position to tell you because I don't have a recollection 16 of where they are -- where they were. 17 Q: All right. But the people that you 18 say you saw in the parking lot at 7:00 or 7:30 -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- were at a place that would have 21 been practically on the former checkpoint site, right? 22 Very close to where the checkpoint had been, Checkpoint 23 A? 24 A: I think so, yeah. 25 Q: Yeah. So they might have just come,
2551 out of curiosity, to see what was going on because the 2 checkpoint had disappeared. 3 A: Who? 4 Q: The people who you saw in the parking 5 lot. 6 A: No. 7 Q: No? 8 A: I asked them what they were doing 9 there, sir. It was clear to me what they were doing 10 there. 11 Q: All right. 12 Q: They weren't there out of curiosity 13 to see what the checkpoint was with bats in their hands 14 and telling -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- me I couldn't go on the parking 17 lot. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And to the best of 19 your knowledge, they hadn't come out all day onto the 20 parking lot, other than -- not when the checkpoint was 21 there, to the best of your knowledge? 22 A: Right. Well we would have heard 23 about it. 24 Q: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now
2561 almost a quarter to 5:00, Mr. Klippenstein. I'm going to 2 ask you how long you think you might be until you finish. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I think -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 5 estimated four (4) to five (5) hours and you're about 6 approximately four and a half (4 1/2) hours now. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 8 think if I -- if I go to five o'clock I would be one (1) 9 more hour after that. Whether that's -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I intend to 11 stay until you finish. If you're going to take until six 12 o'clock then we'll stay until you finish. You think 13 you're going to be another hour and fifteen (15) minutes? 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I find that 16 quite surprising in view of the fact that you've been 17 four and a half (4 1/2) hours already, I really do. Do 18 you want to -- 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I have a couple 20 of more areas to touch on. I'll do what I can to make 21 them -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would like 23 you to finish. I mean I don't want you to go -- 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to be
2571 unfinished, but I'd like to start back at Mr. Rosenthal 2 tomorrow morning, if that's possible. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. I'll -- 4 I'll try and be -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I -- 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- as brief as 7 I can. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 9 right, let's carry on and see how far we get. 10 Are you okay -- 11 THE WITNESS: I am, Your Honour, thank 12 you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Inspector 14 Wright? 15 THE WITNESS: It's fine with me. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 17 should try to finish this evening, if we can. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 22 Q: I would like to ask you a number of 23 questions about the negotiators. Now, Operation Maple 24 had a significant description -- well, first of all, 25 Operation Maple clearly said, and appeared to emphasize,
2581 that the goal of the operation was to contain and 2 negotiate a peaceful resolution, right? 3 A: Right. Project Maple, right? 4 Q: I'm sorry, Project Maple. A matter 5 of some sense, but. And Project Maple described a plan 6 that included having round the clock negotiators 7 available, right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And let me just ask a bit about that. 10 If you turn to Tab 18, which is your typewritten notes -- 11 the typewritten command post notes. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And at page 24 we have the beginning 14 of September 5th, a description of a meeting at 9:25 in 15 the morning of the 5th; is that right? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And if I turn then to page 32. Well 18 first of all, we have a long meeting -- notes of a long 19 meeting on the morning of the -- of 9:25. And then at 20 page 31, we have at 11:04 what appears to be another 21 briefing meeting being held, is that right, on page 31 -- 22 A: Yes, I agree. 23 Q: -- of Exhibit P-426. And you have a 24 long description of the meeting proceeds for about a 25 page, and at 11:17 there's a discussion regarding
2591 negotiators I'd like to ask you about. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: It's the morning of September 5th. 4 "A discussion regarding negotiators 5 took place." 6 Do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "Sergeant Seltzer, once again, stated 9 that the same person should negotiate 10 all the way through. Inspector Carson 11 agreed. 12 Sergeant Seltzer suggested talking to 13 Vince George. 14 Inspector Carson, that he is hesitant 15 to do this because Vince George has to 16 live here with these people. 17 Sergeant Seltzer also talked to Lorne 18 Smith, he is not sure whether he wants 19 to negotiate because he also lives in 20 the area. He does not want to cause 21 concerns for his family. 22 Detective Sergeant Wright suggested 23 bringing in Sergeant Marg Eve." 24 Do you recall that discussion? 25 A: I don't recall that. I don't have an
2601 independent recollection of that other than I -- I recall 2 that I made the suggestion about Marg Eve. 3 Q: Okay. And then there's a -- one (1) 4 sentence about a different topic. And then on page 33 5 the discussion of negotiators continues: 6 "Brad Seltzer suggested to John Carson 7 that we use a Native negotiator in the 8 negotiations. Inspector Carson advised 9 Sergeant Seltzer to contact Vince 10 George." 11 A: Right. 12 Q: "Inspector Carson brought up concerns 13 about Vince George; he doesn't want to 14 [it seems to be repetitive] -- he 15 doesn't want him to have to suffer 16 after we leave. 17 John Carson stated that we need Mike 18 Hudson but he's on vacation. John 19 Carson would like initial contact with 20 Vince George and then switch to a 21 negotiator. 22 It was directed to bring Sergeant Eve 23 in on September 6th/'95. Marg Eve and 24 Vince George and then change Vince 25 George to Mike Hudson. Brad Seltzer to
2611 check with Vince George. John Carson 2 stresses to Brad Seltzer if Vince 3 George is uncomfortable helping us we 4 respect that." 5 A: Right. I remember that -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- meeting. 8 Q: Now, it appears that from all this 9 there's a reference to -- to a decision to bring Sergeant 10 Eve in on September 6th; is that right? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And it appears that there was 13 actually no plan that was working, in place for 14 negotiators for the -- for the 5th? 15 A: Negotiators were there. 16 Q: And which were the negotiators? 17 A: At Ipperwash? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: At -- well, Seltzer was there as of 20 the 5th. 21 Q: Now, Seltzer, however, doesn't appear 22 to want to be the main negotiator. He suggests it should 23 be one (1) person and it appears that he doesn't think it 24 should be him, or have I got that wrong? 25 A: Well, no, I think what's going on
2621 here is Brad is -- Brad Seltzer's suggesting that he -- 2 he's there and he's the negotiator on scene, but he's 3 suggesting that -- there's a discussion taking place that 4 perhaps we'll meet with more success if we use somebody 5 like Vince George. 6 And then the other -- the next name that's 7 brought forward is Lorne Smith and because of the reasons 8 that they both lived there and they're uncomfortable and 9 Lorne was retired at that time, I suggested bringing in 10 Marg. 11 Q: And does Marg have any -- did Marg 12 have any training as a negotiator? 13 A: Yeah, trained negotiator. 14 Q: And did she have any experience 15 negotiating in First Nations land issues? 16 A: No, I don't think so. She had vast 17 experience policing on First Nations territories though. 18 Q: And had she negotiated any group 19 disputes, like occupations? 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: And... 22 A: Actually, I'm sure that she didn't. 23 Q: And the result is that the Project 24 Maple negotiating plan was not in place on September 5th; 25 isn't that fair?
2631 A: No, I disagree with you. 2 Q: You disagree? 3 A: It was in a plan and Seltzer was one 4 (1) of the first ones called out, as I recall. 5 Q: So it was -- 6 A: I think I have him called out the 7 night of the -- he's there that night, as I recollect. 8 Q: It was Seltzer and nobody else, is 9 what it looks like, on the 5th. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: On the 5th, right? 12 A: I'm not sure, you'd have to check the 13 logs and stuff, but certainly Seltzer was there. We had 14 a negotiator there; that was Brad. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: I thought there was more than Brad 17 there, but I stand to be corrected. 18 Q: All right. It doesn't sound like it 19 from here, does it? 20 A: Well he's a negotiator, he's 21 completely trained in that, so I mean the base -- that 22 base is covered, sir; there's a negotiator there. 23 Q: And the -- Project Maple talks about 24 negotiating teams of two (2) people available at all 25 times.
2641 A: Right. 2 Q: Right? And so that wasn't the case 3 on September 5th? 4 A: No, I -- again I'm -- I disagree with 5 you in that, you know, we don't have a document, I'm 6 saying I don't know how many of them there were. I know 7 Brad was there, but because I don't have an independent 8 recollection of who was all there on September 4th or 5th 9 doesn't mean I'm agreeing with you that they weren't 10 there. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: My recollection is there were 13 officers there. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Seltzer would be the one to ask who 16 was there. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I'd like you to turn now to the 21 transcripts of the court hearing on September 7th. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Just found it, Tab 55.
2651 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 4 Tab 5-5? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: This is at Tab 6 55, which is the transcript of the Court proceedings -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Court 8 proceedings, yes. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- on the 7th 10 day of September -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- 1995. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: I'd like to ask you about the 18 evidence you gave on a number of points and I'll refer 19 you to the page here. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Mr. Millar has taken you through a 24 number of points and on page 24 of the transcripts of the 25 September 7th Court hearing which is Inquiry Document
2661 3000504, Exhibit P-75 -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 737. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 737, thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 6 Q: Actually, at the bottom of page 23, 7 is the question and it's a question put to you by, I 8 believe, Mr. McCabe; do you see that? 9 "Do you have any knowledge of alcohol 10 or intoxicating substances on the site 11 of the Park?" 12 Is that right? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And you speak for a while and then 15 half way through what is your answer, you say: 16 "And again on Sunday -- " 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Your evidence is again, on Sunday -- 20 "Monday night when the officers had the 21 confrontation, thirteen (13) OPP 22 officers with thirteen (13) Canadian 23 natives on the boat access ramp down to 24 the lake. 25 The trunk of a motor vehicle that a
2671 First Nations person was operating was 2 popped open and the stock of a rifle 3 butt was seen, and the First Nations 4 individual went to grab the rifle and 5 one of our OPP officers put his hand on 6 the butt of his sidearm and another 7 First Nations person told the person 8 who was pulling the rifle out, to put 9 it back and he did. 10 Close the trunk and the officer dropped 11 his hand away with his service 12 revolver." 13 Now, my question is: Where did you get 14 that information? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: You don't recall? 17 A: I think it was Richardson or Korosec, 18 I think. 19 Q: And I have compiled the notes of the 20 various officers that, to my knowledge, were present 21 there and I gave you notice of them and there is, I 22 believe, eight (8) officers who appear to be -- have been 23 present at that site. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: And we -- I believe we've provided
2681 copies -- 2 A: I've got a package -- 3 Q: -- for you today. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: I won't go through them in detail, 6 but would you agree with me that your information, in 7 hindsight, to the Court is incorrect on a number of 8 aspects? 9 A: Of that? 10 Q: Of that. 11 A: Not that I know of. 12 Q: Not that you know of. All right. 13 Well I won't go through the various statements, 14 Commissioner, but -- 15 A: I mean that's my honest belief that 16 it remains to this day, I stand to be corrected. But 17 that's what I -- to this day that's what I thought 18 happened so and that's the evidence I gave. 19 Q: All right. And you can't give me any 20 more information about where you got that? 21 A: Sorry. No, that's the best I could 22 do is Korosec or Richardson. 23 Q: All right. 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I'll 25 address that matter in argument then, Commissioner.
2691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 6 Q: Now you were asked by Mr. McCabe in 7 that court proceeding if you knew why the Natives were 8 there. And let me just find the exact reference that I 9 had in mind, I'm trying to be brief here. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: At page 10 of the transcripts of the 14 court hearing. 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: You were asked by Mr. McCabe: 17 "You mentioned reference to a burial 18 ground. Were there any statements 19 apart from that as to why the occupiers 20 were there?" 21 And your answer refers to a point in the 22 Provincial Park which is I think something -- something 23 different from -- it's a -- it's sort of a traditional 24 use Park that hasn't been a problem in the years. 25 But nowhere here do you tell the court
2701 that it's your understanding that the protesters say it's 2 their land. 3 A: Yeah. I -- I don't think I do that 4 either. 5 Q: Right. And I can advise you that 6 when you review almost all the statements of the officers 7 who were in attendance at the incident you described here 8 about the alleged gun butt in the Park in your trunk -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- which as I've said I'm going to 11 say is -- I'm going to argue as well and in great many 12 details, almost all the officers' statements present 13 there refer to several Natives yelling or screaming that 14 this was their land that it had been wrongfully taken 15 from the Government and that the officers were 16 trespassing and might be arrested for trespassing. 17 Did any of that information come to your 18 knowledge when you were being told about the alleged gun 19 butt incident? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. So none of the officers who were 22 present at that occasion according to your evidence, told 23 you that the Native people had been yelling and -- and 24 shouting that it was their land? 25 A: No, not that I recall.
2711 Q: All right. And in your evidence, you 2 described the point at which the protesters took over the 3 Park and indeed when a protester who turned out to be 4 Roderick or Judas George, smashed a cruiser window -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- right? You described that to the 7 court, right? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: We've heard a significant amount of 10 evidence that in that circumstance, Judas George said, 11 "Get off our land" and words to that affect; is that 12 right? 13 Did -- did you hear -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- anything about that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: So to the best of your knowledge, 18 nobody ever -- who was present, told you that people at 19 that point were saying "It's our land."? 20 A: I think shortly thereafter Speck and 21 Parks are down there and they're told, and I think it's by 22 Mr. George, that -- to get off their land or they'd be 23 arrested or -- or there'd be a confrontation. 24 I mean I certainly understood and I've 25 given this in evidence that -- I mean, my evidence has
2721 always been that I was of the feeling that that property 2 belonged to the Province of Ontario and that MNR was the 3 holder. 4 And I mean I certainly -- I'm -- I'm very 5 comfortable with the fact that the occupiers were -- were 6 suggesting that that was their land. I mean I guess the 7 fact that I said it was their burial grounds or whatever 8 would -- would fall in -- that it would be their land. 9 It was one (1) and the same. I mean there 10 was -- there was no doubt in my mind if this helps you 11 that the protestors there or the occupiers felt that that 12 land was theirs. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And that's why they were there. 15 Q: And you never said that to the Court? 16 A: Well, I -- I think -- again, I would 17 think that the fact that there's a burial ground there 18 indicates that it's their property, right? I mean that's 19 -- that's my under -- that's -- it's always been that way. 20 It's that way today for me. I mean if 21 they're going to say that's their burial ground then 22 they're alleging that it's their property. One (1) goes 23 hand in hand with the other as far as I'm concerned. 24 Q: So that was your understanding at the 25 -- at the time?
2731 A: And today. 2 Q: Okay. And you -- but you didn't 3 describe to the Court in any detail at all other than one 4 (1) I believe you mention burial grounds -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- that was the rationale as you 7 understood it for the occupation? 8 A: That they wanted their land. They 9 were -- they were -- 10 Q: That it was their -- 11 A: Yeah, right. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Did you discuss before your actual 17 testimony with Mr. McCabe the questions related to why are 18 they there? Did -- did -- 19 A: I don't remember, sir. The best I can 20 do for you is that taped conversation that McCabe and I 21 have the night before as -- but I don't remember the next 22 morning. 23 By that time there'd been, you know, the 24 incident and I'd been up a long time and I don't -- I 25 don't even remember having a conversation with Mr. McCabe
2741 prior to getting into the box, frankly. 2 Q: All right. And I was going to ask 3 you, did Mr. McCabe explain to you anything about the 4 fact as he explained to Mr. Carson on the tapes that an ex 5 parte injunction required some description of urgency and 6 also there's a legal requirement in the rules that a 7 motion made without notice requires the party to make a 8 full and fair description of all material facts. Did -- 9 did...? 10 A: I -- I don't recall, sir. I recall 11 going there and giving my best effort with regards to any 12 and all questions that were asked of me there. 13 Q: And at that time I think you said you 14 had been without sleep for how long? 15 A: Something around thirty (30) hours. 16 Q: Right. And the reason was because 17 this -- not only had this happened at the Park but the 18 injunction had only occurred or been advised to you of the 19 evening before basically or the afternoon before? 20 You hadn't really had time to prepare, is 21 that fair? 22 A: I had no time to -- absolutely no time 23 to prepare because then you know things unfolded that 24 night right? 25 Q: Right.
2751 A: It didn't allow me time. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: You've -- we've seen in some of your 6 materials and the evidence that Mr. Millar has gone 7 through with you that you dealt in some detail with the 8 issue of colour of right in this area, not related to the 9 Park but related to what was known as the West Ipperwash 10 claim? 11 A: I was certainly alive to that, yes. 12 Q: In fact, didn't you either help 13 prepare or at least attend a seminar or seminars about 14 that for fellow officers? 15 A: I helped prepare that, yes and -- 16 Q: You helped prepare that? 17 A: Yes. And provided that training. 18 Q: Yes. And so you knew quite a bit 19 about colour of right, is that right? 20 A: As it -- yeah, sure. 21 Q: Yes. And colour -- colour of right, 22 just in a general way, relates to charges of trespass in 23 the sense that a party who honestly believes they have the 24 right to be there, have a defence to the charge of 25 trespass, generally speaking. Is that --
2761 A: Agreed. 2 Q: -- that's your understanding? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Yes. And you've said that, just now, 5 that you knew of the First Nations claim to a burial 6 ground and that, in your mind, that was essentially also a 7 claim to basically ownership of the Park, right? 8 A: I knew of the -- sure. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: As of what -- when are talking about? 11 September 6th -- 12 Q: Well -- 13 A: -- 5th? 14 Q: Since at least the time when you spoke 15 with Bert Manning and he said, we've got a burial ground 16 here. 17 A: Sure. 18 Q: And even before that as well, in 19 reality. 20 You knew there was a claim of a burial 21 ground in there? 22 A: At some point -- I can't put a 23 definite point on it, but I don't much -- yeah, I don't 24 have a problem with that, that I -- I knew that that was 25 their feeling that that Park belonged to them.
2771 Q: And I take it you may not have liked 2 the way they expressed that, to put it mildly, but you 3 certainly believed that they believed it? 4 A: Well, I take issue with the, I didn't 5 like the way they expressed it, to put it mildly, because 6 I mean, I -- 7 Q: Sorry, let me -- I didn't mean to -- 8 to take a shot at you with you -- 9 A: Well, it appeared -- 10 Q: -- with that, but let me just say to 11 you -- 12 A: -- that's what was going on. 13 Q: All right. I'm not that smooth, when 14 I take a shot at you, you'll notice it. 15 Certainly, you accepted that they really 16 honestly believed that it was their land, generally 17 speaking, right? 18 A: Honestly -- no. I -- they were making 19 the claim and I wasn't satisfied that they honestly 20 believed it. 21 Q: So -- all right. And why did you not 22 believe that? 23 A: Because there was -- there was 24 nothing, as far as I was concerned, we're talking about 25 colour of right, other than somebody saying that that was
2781 our property. 2 I mean, I -- 'cause, again, you know, we 3 had been working on this and we were aware that there was 4 potentially the -- there might be a takeover of the Park, 5 so Carson had caused that a back -- a number of checks to 6 be made, and it was clear in my mind that that Park was 7 the lawful property of the Province of Ontario and MNR was 8 the landlord. 9 And once the occupation occurred, on top of 10 that, we had Chief Bressette, you know, basically 11 establishing that there was, in my mind anyways, he made 12 it clear, as far as I was concerned, that there was no 13 basis for them being there. 14 So, I mean, as far as colour of right was 15 concerned there, it goes beyond, for me, merely saying 16 that, you know, I have title to that property because 17 there's -- it's a burial ground, is -- is not sufficient 18 to -- to demonstrate colour of right. 19 I think it goes beyond merely making that 20 point, in my mind. 21 Q: Well, since that time, we've had a lot 22 of historical evidence come forward and you've seen a lot 23 of it, you know, reports and letters and photographs of 24 skeletons and so forth, right? 25 A: I haven't seen that, but I mean, all
2791 one needs to see is the -- the Minister in charge of, I 2 think it was Indian Affairs at the time, showing up with a 3 document, September whatever, I think that there -- 4 clearly there's colour of right now. 5 Q: Right. And beyond that, you talked 6 about Chief Bressette and others saying there was no 7 burial ground. 8 It's fair to say that as far as you were 9 concerned, there's a -- there's a burial ground in there, 10 as far as you were concerned; isn't that fair? 11 A: No, I -- I don't -- I don't know 12 enough about it, sir. I'm not -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- taking issue with that. I just -- 15 all I know is he came with a piece of paper and I don't 16 even know what that document said, nor have I ever seen a 17 copy of it. But I think the fact that the -- the Minister 18 in charge of Indian Affairs comes with a document saying 19 that there might -- they may have title, is sufficient for 20 me, as far as I'm concerned about colour of right, and I 21 don't need to know a whole lot more about that than that. 22 Q: All right. Well, I've prepared a 23 short collection of documents related to burial grounds 24 which we gave notice of and which you have -- 25 A: I think I've seen them.
2801 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if you could just glance at that 4 in -- 5 A: I'm not taking issue with the fact 6 that that's the suggestion that there's a burial ground. 7 Q: Fair enough. I -- we don't need to 8 get into -- 9 A: That's helpful. 10 Q: -- at this -- and one (1) or two (2) 11 pages into that document brief, I have a copy of Exhibit 12 P-822 which is Inquiry Document 1008093 and do you -- 13 A: I don't -- I don't know if I have 14 that. 15 Q: I'm sorry. I thought we may have -- 16 A: I have the note, this package -- 17 Q: You have a package that -- that -- 18 A: It's full of -- 19 Q: -- looks like this. 20 A: -- it starts with officer's notebooks 21 and then I have -- 22 Q: I believe it's in there somewhere in 23 your massive mound. 24 A: Wait a minute -- no. My cup runneth 25 over here, frankly.
2811 Q: I think assistance is on the way. 2 A: Okay. Sorry it was hiding in plain 3 sight as it were. I have it now. I apologize. 4 Q: Right. If you can look at that -- the 5 second document which has a picture of a fax machine on 6 it. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And that is a memo dated September 9 14th, 1995, do you see that? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And it's from, at the very top, Daryl 12 Smith, Information Services Coordinator, MNR? 13 A: Right, that's what it looks like, 14 yeah. 15 Q: I've seen Daryl Smith for example 16 quoted in a newspaper article on I believe September 6th, 17 '96. 18 Did you have occasion to meet him around 19 that time? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. All right. If you turn to hand 22 numbered page 3 of that -- sorry, not page 3, let's make 23 it -- handwritten page 4. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Which is a transcription of a letter
2821 as it says August 19th, 1937 being from a Mr. Cain I 2 believe. I believe the Deputy Minister of Lands for 3 Ontario at that time which says: 4 "Not having before me all the facts in 5 connec --" 6 Do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "Not having before me all the facts in 9 connection with the location of this 10 area in relation to the program of works 11 being carried out, I cannot speak 12 definitely on the matter except to say 13 that I shall do my best to make such 14 arrangements as will respect the natural 15 wishes of the Indians." 16 I can advise you this is a rough 17 transcription of the letter -- one of the letters that the 18 Minister of Indian Affairs produced -- 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: -- approximately September 12th, 1995 21 and is attached to the fax cover sheet that we looked at a 22 moment ago and in the body of the fax cover sheet, the 23 second paragraph says: 24 "On January 16th, 1975, I found these in 25 the third basement of Whitney Block."
2831 Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I think the evidence is -- has been 4 that the -- together with the covering letter that's found 5 at handwritten page 2 that that letter I just read you 6 from 1937 referring to the burial grounds was known to 7 various employees of MNR in 1975. 8 And if you look at page 2, handwritten page 9 2, you will see it's a memo dated January 16th, 1975? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It's to the Superintendent of 12 Ipperwash. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And the paragraph says: 15 "You will recall that I mentioned that I 16 would attempt to look up old Ipperwash 17 records in the Provincial Archives. 18 I have recently perused several 19 Ipperwash record files and attach copies 20 of rather interesting information." 21 All right? And he's referring to that 1937 22 letter I just showed you. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Which appears to suggest in the 25 evidence before the Inquiry is that this memo and the
2841 copies of that letter were known to several people in MNR 2 in 1975. And it appears anyway that they were sent to the 3 Superintendent of Ipperwash Park at the time. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: Now my question to you is: I take it 6 from what you've said that if the First Nations people had 7 showed you a copy of this document earlier on before 8 September '95 you would have taken a different course than 9 what happened in September of '95; is that fair? 10 A: Hypothetically if they would have 11 shown me this document what would I have done? 12 Well, just -- just this document dated 13 August 19th, 1937? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: I don't -- if you read that -- I mean 16 this is the first time I saw it but it doesn't mean a 17 whole lot of anything to me. I appreciate you giving me 18 some additional information with what this is to mean but 19 if somebody were to hand me this and say this means that I 20 have colour of right, I don't see -- I don't see the 21 connection in all honesty because it's not in regard to 22 what. 23 It doesn't have Ipperwash Provincial Park 24 or I mean there's -- this document on its own is not very 25 -- would not have been very helpful at all to me.
2851 Q: All right. Just turn to the previous 2 page, page 3 for a little bit of extra background. That 3 page 3 is a letter dated August 17th, 1937, and it's the 4 letter to which the other one responds to okay? And it's 5 from an Indian Affairs official to Mr. Cain at the 6 Province. It says -- and I'll -- there's a couple of 7 typos which I'll just smooth over here: 8 "In connection with the work at present 9 being carried out under the direction of 10 your department at Ipperwash Beach near 11 Sarnia I had to inform you that the 12 Indians of the Kettle of Stony -- Kettle 13 and Stoney Point Band are much concerned 14 in the preservation of an old Indian 15 cemetery which I understand is located 16 within the boundary now being developed 17 as a Park. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: "On the 13th of this -- of this month 20 the Council of the Kettle and Stony 21 Point Bands passed a resolution 22 requesting this department to bring the 23 matter to your attention with the view 24 to having this old Indian burial ground 25 preserved in tact and properly fenced.
2861 Your request will I'm assured appear to 2 you as entirely reasonable and I should 3 be glad if you would see that the 4 necessary action is taken with the view 5 to meeting the wishes of the Indians." 6 All right. Does that add to the context of 7 the subsequent letter that -- 8 A: So now I've got -- this hypothetical - 9 - I've got both of these letters -- 10 Q: Right. 11 A: -- before me. 12 Q: Right. And I -- 13 A: Well -- 14 Q: -- by the way I've attached 15 photocopies of the original letters, not that I -- hand 16 page 33 and 31. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Now, had you been given those would 19 you agree with me your course of action would have been 20 different? 21 A: Well, again I -- I want to answer this 22 as accurately as I possibly can so I guess I'm going to 23 need to know, are we talking that I know this but I don't 24 know that Carson has had the review done or...? 25 Q: Well, let -- let --
2871 A: This -- 2 Q: -- let me just -- let me just ask you 3 if these two (2) letters had been given to you well before 4 September of '95. 5 A: I would have given them to Inspector 6 Carson. 7 Q: I see. And would you have taken any 8 other action or recommended any other action? 9 A: Well, it would have caused me concern, 10 sure. I mean, I -- I think you're starting to look at 11 potentially a colour of right. 12 But you know again I knew there was a 13 cemetery on CFB Ipperwash so you know was -- if this -- 14 are they talking about CFB Ipperwash you know and but -- 15 but this is 1937 so they're talking about was -- was the - 16 - was the cemetery that is now on CFB Ipperwash the area 17 that they're talking about that's now fenced in as a 18 cemetery? I don't know. 19 I mean you know a hypothetical question is 20 an academic exercise right? I mean I don't know what's 21 going here; that alone would make it difficult based on 22 what I know about CFB Ipperwash as well on that cemetery. 23 Q: Right. So just having these documents 24 you wouldn't have done anything differently? 25 A: No, I -- I would -- you know I would
2881 have given them to -- had they come to me and we were 2 dealing with this sort of an issue and we thought 3 something was going to happen I would have given them to 4 Carson and I would have taken my marching orders from 5 Inspector Carson because it's not my call. 6 Q: All right. So you would have given 7 them to Carson -- 8 A: Absolutely. 9 Q: -- and that's all you would have done? 10 A: And I would have taken his direction. 11 Q: All right. You wouldn't have -- you 12 would have just given them to him? 13 A: Well... 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I mean, literally, we would have some 16 conversation and I suspect I would say something like, You 17 know, John, perhaps we should have a look at this because 18 there appears to be you know some kind of claim and has 19 this got to do with the cemetery that's already on CFB 20 Ipperwash? I expect that that's the kind of conversation 21 we would engage in. 22 Q: All right. Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 24 moving to another area now? 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Just checking --
2891 a moment's indulgence, Commissioner, if I may. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, 6 I've tried to take into account the baleful glares of My 7 Friends at my back, given the time -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if you 9 finish now, Mr. Klippenstein, and you think of something 10 overnight that you want to ask in the morning, you'd be 11 given that opportunity. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 13 Thank you. That's very kind of you, Commissioner. I -- I 14 inevitably will, but I don't think, realistically, that I 15 will take or see that need on the -- if there is -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if it 17 does -- 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- some small 19 thing I need -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you'll say 21 so in the morning. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah, all right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 24 finished now? 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Then that
2901 finishes it. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 If something comes up, we'll deal with it in the morning. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 5 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. It's been a long day for all of us, thank you 8 very much. 9 10 (WITNESS RETIRES) 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 13 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday March 21st at 9:00 a.m. 14 15 --- Upon adjourning at 5:24 p.m. 16 17 18 Certified correct, 19 20 21 22 23 __________________ 24 Carol Geehan, Ms. 25