11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 10th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 Discussion 6 7 ROBERT ALLAN ANTONE, Affirmed 8 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 10 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 77 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 91 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 112 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 120 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 127 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 210 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 217 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-258 Email dated June 4, 1993 from Mr. 4 Swan to Mr. Gagnon and Mr. Vanierson 8 5 P-259 Email dated August 21st, 1995 from 6 Mr. Hill to Mr. Doerr, three pages. 8 7 P-284 Document No. 7000339 July 27/'95 Maple 8 Situation Report No. 024 period 9 covering July 26-July 27/'95 from 10 Capt. W.D. Smith, Tac. Com. Camp 11 Ipperwash 176 12 P-285 Document No. 1000600 September 18/'95 13 London Free Press article "Long on 14 Stories but short on facts." 200 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, good 7 morning. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I thought that perhaps 11 it would be appropriate this morning that, given the 12 national memorial service being held today in Edmonton, 13 that we observe a minute of silence in respect of the 14 four (4) RCMP officers, Constables Leo Johnston, Peter 15 Schiemann, Anthony Gordon, Brock Myrol who were killed 16 last Thursday. 17 And as you know and everyone knows there's 18 a national memorial service being held today in Edmonton 19 and perhaps we could -- I would ask that we all stand and 20 observe a minute of silence in the honour of the officers 21 and their families. 22 23 (MINUTE OF SILENCE) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you,
81 Commissioner. Before we start with our witness, there 2 was a couple of housekeeping matters that need to be 3 attended to. 4 We reserved, the other day, Exhibit 258 5 for an e-mail that was dealt with by Mr. Ross and in -- 6 during the examination of Chief Bressette and it's an e- 7 mail dated June 4, 1993 from Mr. Swan, S-W-A-N, to Mr. 8 Gagnon and Mr. Vanierson, V-A-N-I-E-R-S-O-N. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-258: Email dated June 4, 1993 from 11 Mr. Swan to Mr. Gagnon and 12 Mr. Vanierson 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then there was a 15 second e-mail, it was dated August 21st, 1995. The -- it 16 -- the number P-259 was reserved for it and it's a three 17 (3)page e-mail from a Mr. Hill to Mr. Doerr -- D-O-E-R-R. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-259: Email dated August 21st, 1995 20 from Mr. Hill to Mr. Doerr, 21 three pages. 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. And Mr. 24 Worme is going to deal with the next wasn't, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
91 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Morning, Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 morning, Mr. Worme. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: The next witness we 7 will call is Robert Antone. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Antone will 12 affirm. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 morning, Mr. Antone. 15 MR. ROBERT ANTONE: Morning. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Antone. 17 I understand that you are going to affirm this morning? 18 MR. ROBERT ANTONE: Yes. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Could 20 give us your name in full? 21 MR. ROBERT ANTONE: My name is -- my own 22 -- real name is Tayohdhga and my English name is Robert 23 Allan Antone. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 25
101 ROBERT ALLAN ANTONE, Affirmed: 2 3 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. Atone. 5 A: Good morning. 6 Q: Mr. Atone, you have a date of birth 7 of March the 12th, 1949 and I take it on Saturday you 8 will be fifty-six (56) years of age? 9 A: That's correct. And I hope everyone 10 here has a chance to celebrate with me. 11 Q: As -- as we did with Mr. George. You 12 are employed as Executive Director at the Kii-kee-wan- 13 kaan healing lodge at the Muncey Delaware First Nation? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I wonder if you just might tell us a 16 bit about what that is, what your role is there, and how 17 long you have been there? 18 A: My role as the Executive Director is 19 to -- was in the beginning to develop the programs that 20 we initiated there. We run a twenty-four (24) bed 21 facility where we have -- for First Nations or aboriginal 22 people. We have people coming in all over from Ontario 23 and as well as out east. We've had clients from Quebec 24 and the Maritimes and as well as New York and -- and 25 Michigan.
111 Our program is offered to people who are 2 victims of family violence, victims of abuse in -- in 3 their communities, people who are struggling with mental 4 health issues. And we have a staff of about fifteen (15) 5 people, give or take. Our casual staff as well and our 6 relief staff, we can go up to anywheres up to twenty (20) 7 staff at a time. 8 We -- our primary program is a three (3) 9 week program that has proven very successful over the 10 last six (6) years. We have worked with well over 11 fifteen hundred (1,500) people in the last six (6) years 12 and most of them come from the rural Native communities. 13 What else can I tell you? 14 Q: I take it in -- in the course of that 15 program that you would employ traditional methodologies? 16 A: Our -- the primary focus of our 17 program is based on our cultural practices. And we have 18 to be mindful that we service primarily three -- three 19 (3) to four (4) cultures in the area. 20 We service the Haudenosaunee or Ognahome 21 (phonetic) culture, the Anishnabe culture, the Cree 22 culture, as well as Lanopay (phonetic), which are a 23 Delaware culture. But, where -- our focus is in those 24 four (4) primary cultures in the area. 25 We've had people from other cultures, but
121 we find that there are some universal tools that have 2 evolved over the years of -- of healing and -- and the 3 development of mental health programs among First Nations 4 that are universal -- there's universal practices that 5 seem to work quite successfully with many of our people. 6 Q: And they can transcend the -- the 7 different cultures that you've -- 8 A: Yes, they can. 9 Q: -- referred to? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you, sir, are a member of the 12 Oneida of the Thames First Nation? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And a member of the Oneida Longhouse? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: We've had occasion here yesterday to 17 hear from Mr. Bruce Elijah a little bit in respect to -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- the Longhouse. And one of the 20 things that he had told us is that you -- you sit on the 21 opposite side of the house? 22 A: Hmm hmm. I sit on the better side of 23 the house. 24 Q: I see. We'll -- we'll have to ask 25 him that. And I wonder if you might take a moment, even
131 in a general sense, Mr. Antone, if you could tell us a 2 little bit about that governing structure of the Oneida 3 Nation, the organization that is -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- of the Oneida Longhouse? 6 A: Well -- well, there is -- trying to 7 condense a few thousand years of history, but the -- the 8 longhouse structure is based on three (3) clans, that was 9 instituted probably -- we estimate well over fifteen 10 hundred (1,500) years ago according to our history. 11 And the three (3) clans were structured -- 12 were -- were in the divisions of authority and the -- the 13 political institution, and the organization of our 14 society was developed by the person we -- we refer to as 15 a peacemaker. And he brought those teachings to us and 16 he helped organize our -- our society at that time, as 17 well as all -- all the Iroquois communities. 18 You have to remember that we are -- even 19 though we are a separate Nation, we are directly 20 connected to all of the five (5) Nations, or today the 21 six (6) Nations. The Mohawk, who are the eastern door 22 keepers of -- of the confederacy; we are next door to 23 them. 24 And -- and then we set our regional 25 territories is between -- is in-between the Mohawk and
141 the Onondaga Nation. And - and then west of the Onondaga 2 territory is Acuwga (phonetic), and then the Senecas. 3 And the Senecas are -- are viewed as the western 4 doorkeepers. 5 And around 1716, 17 -- between 1716 and 6 1734 the Tuscaroras became a member -- a formalized 7 member nation of the -- of the Iroquois confederacy. 8 Oftentimes it's -- we refer to ourselves 9 as the Five (5) Nations, but from 1734 we're supposed to 10 -- it takes a long time to get used to saying it, but we 11 are the Six (6) Nations. And -- in our term we asked 12 people to call us the Haudenosaunee, which is the People 13 of the Longhouse or the People Who Build Longhouses. 14 So, within the site of our structure, we 15 have our house, we say is -- is divided in half, meaning 16 that on one (1) side of the house the Wolf clan sits -- 17 the three (3) families of the Wolf clan and on the other 18 side of the house is the three (3) clan -- the three (3) 19 families of the Bear clan and the three (3) clans -- or 20 the three (3) clan families of the Turtle clan. I sit in 21 the Turtle clan. 22 And the reason why our house was divided 23 is so that we could take care of each other, primarily as 24 -- when it was originally structured that way, it was to 25 take care of the times when our families were suffering
151 from grief from the loss of their loved ones and -- and 2 that was -- that was when the house was originally set up 3 that way. 4 And -- and why it was set up that way was 5 to -- so that we could -- when a, say a clan member in - 6 - in the Wolf clan passes on, the other two (2) clans are 7 there to help that family. They say when a family is 8 grieving, they are to do nothing but grieve and -- so 9 that they can take care of themselves, their spiritual 10 well-being during that time. So, the other clans do all 11 the cooking and do all the caring of that family and 12 that. 13 So, that practice is still going on today. 14 So, that was the original reason for the clan system as 15 well as to help organize our society. 16 When the Peacekeeper came, he helped us 17 put leadership inside of those clans and so we have nine 18 (9) designated chiefs -- if you want to call them in the 19 English language -- they're referred to as chiefs. 20 They -- in our -- in our language when you 21 actually translate it, it really means they are more like 22 pathmakers. And -- and what that refers to is that they 23 are to provide guidance and direction for their clan and 24 they are the voice of each of the clans of the -- of the 25 extended families.
161 So, we still practise that today. I mean, 2 that's been a -- that was our form of government before 3 contact. It remained our form of government until 1934 4 when the Canadian Government imposed the elective system 5 under the Indian Act on our community. And at that time 6 they were -- it was forced upon us by the Department of 7 Indian Affairs and the -- and, of course, they used the 8 RCMP during that time and to -- to force that form of 9 government on our -- on our community. 10 Our government remains -- still remains 11 intact. We still continue to practise what we've always 12 practised and we're continuing to rebuild our nation 13 based on that clan system. 14 So, it's -- it's a functioning government 15 today. If you go into our community we -- true, we do 16 have the Band Council System in our community, but we 17 also have the chieftainship of our original government 18 and they work hand in hand in many cases on particular 19 issues that are going on in our community today. 20 I have been -- been burdened, I guess is 21 the best way I can put it with position of chief of one 22 (1) of the Turtle -- one (1) of the Turtle clan families. 23 And it's a -- the reason why I say it's a burden because 24 it's -- you're given it for a lifetime unless you really 25 mess up. And -- and I have sat as -- over the years for
171 -- in 19 -- around 1972, I was asked to be a faith keeper 2 in -- in the long house, which I continue to serve as and 3 that is another responsibility because our society is 4 highly organized in that way. 5 The faithkeeper is responsible to ensure 6 that our ceremonies and the people are taken care of and 7 so we continue to practise that. 8 All of other clan families do have 9 designated both male and female faithkeepers that are 10 responsible to continue on -- to continue the practices 11 of the clans. 12 In addition to that, in 1982 we had what 13 we all a condolence ceremony or the raising of chiefs in 14 1982, and at that time, I was placed as a sub-chief or an 15 assistant to the principle chief in my family -- extended 16 family clan. 17 And so I served that position until about 18 -- I believe it was about 1994, which is about ten (10) 19 years ago or eleven (11) years ago and then the chief in 20 my family, that extended family, passed away and I have 21 been sitting in that position since that time, for about 22 eleven (11) years. 23 And I continue to serve as a -- 24 representing my extended family in the clan meetings and 25 -- and I represent the Nation, overall, too when I'm
181 asked to do that. 2 In fact, this past weekend, we just had a 3 Nation meeting and we had delegates come from -- from 4 Wisconsin. We have sister communities in Wisconsin and 5 New York and those communities send delegates to a 6 meeting that we held here in our longhouse here. 7 Our longhouse here is considered today the 8 central fire of the Oneida nation and it's here that most 9 of the chiefs live. 10 We have some chiefs living in other 11 territories as well and they continue to come to meetings 12 here. We have some major issues confronting our nation, 13 so we continue to meet on those issues on a regular 14 basis. 15 And I -- I hope that kind of answers your 16 question. 17 Q: It does, thank you. In addition to 18 what I'm -- to the -- to the traditional education which 19 I'm assuming that you would have undertaken in order to 20 fulfil your role as a member of the Oneida Longhouse as 21 well as the other roles of faithkeeper that -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- you also described, you've also 24 had some western academic experience and I wonder if just 25 might take a moment to tell us about that.
191 A: Well, I was -- I graduated out of 2 Fanshawe College as a social service worker back in -- 3 basically it doesn't matter, you already know how old I 4 am, back around 1971 and -- and following that I -- I did 5 attend a native -- well, it's called a native American 6 studies program at the State University of New York in 7 Buffalo. 8 I was recruited by -- actually Senecas, 9 who were running that program at the time to go there and 10 -- as a student and also to begin doing some teaching; I 11 think it was in my third year I did some teaching there 12 as well. 13 And then in -- and more recently I have 14 been doing online schooling in leadership and management 15 with the University of Phoenix. I've been doing some of 16 that program, as well. 17 So I -- I always says that the -- there's 18 something new to learn every day. So, I continue to 19 pursue my educational career as -- as well, you know. 20 And I find that -- one of the things -- 21 the reason why I guess I pursue those kinds of studies, I 22 always look for areas to look at because you're always -- 23 we are always trying to understand one (1) thing, western 24 society and because there's -- there still remains a huge 25 conflict between western society and -- and our -- and
201 our society, our native society or our native 2 communities. 3 Our native nations are -- are still in -- 4 are still treated to me in -- in this day and age as 5 second class citizens. And why a society does that to 6 the original inhabitants and the caretakers of this land, 7 why they continue to do that is -- I always trying to 8 find the answer why and -- and so your pursue and try to 9 understand western society. 10 And many of the courses I take are trying 11 to understand western philosophy and why they kind of 12 direct their people or have schooled their people into be 13 a -- being oppressors of minorities, so that's -- 14 Q: So, you -- yeah. So, you see 15 education as -- as having a role in terms of bettering 16 things, if I can put it that way? 17 A: Oh yeah, definitely. I think that -- 18 I've been involved in the last, prob -- I think it's 19 about fifteen (15) or sixteen (16) years now, as -- as an 20 educator with First Nations Technical Institute out of 21 Tyendingaga, which is a Mohawk community east of 22 Belleville and they run a -- a Native college. 23 They have articulation agreements with 24 surrounding colleges like Loyalist College, St. Lawrence 25 College, Ryerson University, the First Nations University
211 out in Saskatchewan, and some of those programs, I have 2 been an instructor at some of those programs and -- and I 3 continue to do that. 4 And but one of the things that we're 5 attempting to do there is -- is to use education as a 6 tool of revitalizing and enhancing our cultures and -- 7 and we continue to do that today. I think that we -- 8 education is -- is really important to our people, but 9 we also have to find ways to -- to own our own education 10 system, and that's what we're attempting to do. 11 And -- because if we own the knowledge and 12 we can transfer and tell our story, then it makes a great 13 deal of difference in terms of the -- of the impact it 14 has on -- on the people, our people, particularly, in our 15 communities. 16 Q: Mr. Antone, you have been trained as 17 a negotiator and you have training in crisis management 18 and conflict resolution. I wonder if you would tell us 19 about that, please? 20 A: Well, certainly, I think -- I always 21 refer to my -- my best teacher in conflict resolution was 22 an old man who was -- who was actually the chief in a 23 position in my extended family, and -- and his English 24 name was Demus Elm. And when he passed away he was over 25 a hundred (100) years old.
221 And he grew up during -- all this time he 2 grew up -- he was born in 19 -- in the late 1980's -- or 3 1880's. And -- and I had the good fortune of being a 4 student of his during the 1970's. 5 And -- and he's the one that not only 6 taught me about the confederacy and about our teachings, 7 but was probably the most living example of those 8 teachings. And he was certainly -- had acquired what we 9 call Skanon or the ability to -- to be at peace with 10 himself and with the world around him. 11 And even though he knew all of this 12 history and all of the things that have happened to our 13 people, he was able to achieve that. And I think that 14 one (1) of the things that he used to always remind -- 15 remind us of was to -- was to learn how to achieve that, 16 which is a very powerful gift, you know, for anyone to 17 have, particularly when you're dealing with the kinds of 18 situations we've seen over the years. 19 Because if you can't achieve the peace 20 within yourself, it's -- it's impossible to achieve it 21 outside of yourself. And when you look at Kanesatake, 22 the Oka crisis, those kinds of situations, Kayeagiah, the 23 occupation of land in New York State, many of the 24 protests and demonstrations that have gone on over the 25 years, if you cannot achieve that state of peace inside
231 of yourself during those kinds of incidences, then you 2 are unable to achieve a harmony with -- with a group of 3 people. 4 And so that's one -- one of -- probably 5 the first lessons in terms of being a peacemaker or being 6 a negotiator that I find that comes from our cultural 7 teachings and -- and he was a -- he was a great believer 8 in -- in achieving that. It was -- it was like, in a 9 way, a form of meditation in the most busiest times to be 10 able to achieve that level of confidence, that level of 11 serenity within oneself during those -- during those 12 particular times. 13 The other things that I think -- what I 14 have done is that over the years I've attended a lot of 15 different workshops. I can't even remember some of them. 16 I went to some in Toronto, some in London, some over in 17 the States and those were -- you know, most of them were 18 private companies that were -- were doing conflict 19 resolution, alternative dispute resolution, crisis 20 management; skills, knowledge in those areas. 21 I also probably have an extensive library 22 on the material as well. I probably have, in my own 23 home, probably well over three (3) thousand books in my 24 own -- I mean my own personal library and certainly a 25 good section of that is in -- is in peacemaking and
241 conflict resolution. 2 Also, I think when you observe situations, 3 I think -- I think most of it comes from life experience 4 as well. And I think that one (1) of the most 5 interesting things that -- that -- that I did observe was 6 the -- was the elections in Guyana down in -- I went down 7 with Ed Broadbent in -- in the Jimmy Centre and -- and I 8 was asked to go as -- as an observer down there. 9 And -- and you go down there and you see 10 that kind of situation where it's a life and death 11 situation, where your people are -- are given a -- are 12 trying to have -- exercise democracy in a -- otherwise 13 very hostile environment and -- and you learn from the 14 best. And certainly that -- that experience gave me a 15 lot of skill, you know, around -- and a lot of knowledge 16 around conflict resolution. 17 So, those kinds of life experiences 18 certainly have contributed to my personal development. 19 And I -- I've been -- I would say that overall, the work 20 that we've been able to accomplish over the years have -- 21 have been successful. 22 We certainly don't -- how would you say 23 it, we don't -- we don't market our skills, I guess, 24 like a -- like a company, but I think that when you -- 25 because the way our nation is structured and the way the
251 confederacy is structured that over the years I've had -- 2 I've engaged in -- in a lot of different activities that 3 stretch across our territory. 4 So, one (1) of the -- one (1) of the 5 things that makes a negotiator successful is if you have 6 respect for the people and if you have respect from the 7 people. 8 And one (1) of the things that -- that the 9 old man -- I go back to that teacher again, because 10 that's one (1) of the things he talked about is that in 11 order to gain that -- that inner peace, one has to be 12 able to have respect for yourself and for your people. 13 And -- and if you do that and you go out there and do 14 your very best and you work for the people, you will in - 15 - in engage their confidence in you. 16 So, when you're -- when you're out there, 17 I know that lot of people have asked me, Well, you know, 18 why were you asked to go to Oka? Why -- why wasn't 19 somebody else? 20 And I think that the bottomline is that it 21 really comes down to is that I have worked with a lot of 22 people over the years in -- in the mental health and 23 social work -- social service field and as a result of 24 that I worked among the Mohawk people over the years and 25 -- and it's out of that respect of that work that they
261 called me in 1990. And -- and they says -- and I've had 2 individuals tell me that we have confidence in what -- in 3 your work. 4 And -- and I -- and I -- and I told him, I 5 says, Well, I don't want to be here. You know, this is 6 not the place I want to spend my summer and -- in 1990, 7 but certainly it was, you know. 8 And it was because people had asked me, 9 and it is my obligation as -- not only as a human being, 10 but as -- as a chief in my nation and in my clan, it is 11 my obligation to do the very best for my people. And my 12 people are not only Oneida people, but they are 13 Haudenosaunee and they are Anishnaabeg, too, as well. 14 You know, so, when you look at the -- look 15 across the board, in a traditional way, it is our 16 teachings that we are obligated when we take on the -- 17 when we are placed in these positions we are obligated to 18 fulfil that whenever we are asked to -- to come out and 19 work with people. 20 That's why I say it is a burden that I 21 would gladly retire from. 22 Q: And one that you aren't able to, I 23 take it? Unless -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- as you say, certain --
271 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- certain things -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- were to happen. 5 A: I could probably do that if I -- if I 6 went out and made a big mistake someplace. 7 Q: We're -- given your background, your 8 training, your experience, is it fair to -- to refer to 9 you as a peacekeeper or do you refer to yourself as a 10 peacekeeper? 11 A: I guess that would be fair to say 12 that. I think being a peacekeeper, I guess, is the best 13 way to say that. I know in -- in my -- in my clan and 14 we've -- I think I'm -- how would you say -- I'm -- I'm 15 trying to -- I'm trying to find a proper way of saying 16 these things which I find, you know, like in these 17 Inquiries, in this kind of process you always have to 18 remind yourself of your own humility and -- and -- 19 because you have these kinds of questions. 20 And when you're -- when you're directing 21 about what I can do or can't do or where I see myself of 22 what I call myself is really a -- forces one to really 23 look at one's ego and we don't -- we're encouraged not to 24 do that. You know, we're encouraged to always exercise 25 our humility and would people refer to me as a
281 peacemaker, I don't know. 2 Is it fair to call me, myself that? Maybe 3 in some instances I am. I would say that I'm a fair 4 negotiator, I'm a fair mediator. I say -- I think I can 5 listen to two (2) sides of a story or probably ten (10) 6 sides of a story and come up with a solution. You know, 7 I think I'm fair in that way. 8 Whether I'm a good peacemaker, I don't 9 know. Only the -- I think there are people out there who 10 have been -- certainly I think if you went and asked some 11 Mohawk people, there would be some out there who would 12 say, Yeah, you did an excellent job and there are some 13 out there that said, no, you never. 14 But, I can tell you there are some people 15 out there who are very grateful, because if I didn't get 16 involved, they said, their husbands would probably not be 17 here today, because they were willing to sacrifice their 18 lives for their cause. And it was only through the 19 intense process of finding a solution there that no --no 20 more deaths took place during -- during 1990. 21 And that was our primary objective, was -- 22 was to ensure that there was no more loss of life. And 23 when I look at this particular incident, and I look at 24 the fact that -- that I was involved here trying to talk 25 to the military prior to the event, prior to Dudley
291 George being murdered here, prior to that, and I ask 2 myself, am I a good peacekeeper? I would say, probably 3 not, because we lost someone. We lost a life here. 4 And -- and I -- I look at it and I say, 5 well, if I was more involved here, and had -- had an 6 opportunity to say more things or do more things, maybe 7 this -- maybe it wouldn't have happened, I don't know. 8 But certainly, I mean, we had at that 9 time, a good relationship with the -- with the military, 10 we were developing that. Did we have one with the OPP at 11 -- prior to the incident? No, we didn't. 12 And -- and I think that it -- that it's 13 unfortunate that we lost someone during that situation. 14 Q: I want to turn to that -- to the 15 situation that you referred to, but just before we get 16 there I understand that you had some awareness of the 17 dispute with respect to Stoney Point? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And how did you come about that and 20 when was it that you would have first gained an 21 understanding of those circumstances? 22 A: Well my knowledge of Stoney Point 23 goes back to the 1970's. When I -- when I came out of 24 college, one of the things that I came out of college was 25 -- was a -- was really the notion of community organizing
301 and trying to make a difference in our community. 2 But, you know, what's interesting is that, 3 you know, from the 60's to the 70's there was suddenly a 4 change going on in -- in First Nation communities and 5 that change was that we were becoming more and more aware 6 of what -- what had happened to us historically. 7 We have -- the reservation system that was 8 created here in Canada, isolated us in many -- up until 9 probably the 1970's. Where the reservations were a -- 10 were a way to divide our people up and to isolate them 11 and -- and so we -- there wasn't a lot of contact until 12 probably the late 1960's and 70's, even though we had the 13 residential schools and people were -- children were 14 herded up from a lot of different communities and -- put 15 into these centralized residential schools and there was 16 some contact through that. 17 But, by and large, the reservation system 18 was a -- was a way to isolate our people. 19 So, coming out of the 1970's into the 20 1970's I became more and more aware of that. There was 21 actually material starting to be published by First 22 Nation people and there was a newspapers were starting up 23 and we were getting more and more aware of what was 24 happening to our people. 25 So, coming -- and I became more and more
311 aware of the community up here and I started travelling 2 around to a lot of different communities in southern 3 Ontario and of course, over the year. You know, there 4 was a few people from college that I had met, somebody 5 from Sarnia, I believe there might have been someone from 6 Kettle Point, too. 7 And so we got a -- you get that kind of 8 connection with people. So I came up here and for some 9 reason, I ended up meeting with -- with one of the elders 10 up here at that time. Maybe we just had gone over for 11 tea and her name was Gladys Lunheim. 12 And I remember her and -- and she started 13 telling this whole story, you know, about Stoney Point 14 and this was like in -- probably around '74, something 15 like that. 16 And she -- and she was telling me all this 17 stuff and she even had a document about -- that showed 18 the -- when they -- when they expropriated this land and 19 they took -- and then she told a story about what 20 happened and how they came in here and they bulldozed 21 down their houses and just run them off, you know, like 22 run them out of here. 23 And -- and she was just a child at that 24 time. And -- and -- and she would tell that story with - 25 - with tears in her eyes.
321 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I have to take a few minutes here. 5 Q: No, certainly. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I take it, Mr. Antone, that after the 10 -- well, let me ask you this, before the occupation of 11 the Army camp, did you have any connection with the 12 people of Stoney Point? 13 A: With -- yeah, I mean from that time 14 on, you know, after I had learned that story about what 15 happened here, at that -- I was the Executive Director of 16 -- of the N'Amerind Friendship Centre at the time. 17 And -- and we also had -- we had -- we 18 were publishing a small newsletter at the time called 19 Tribal Indian News and -- and we had -- I took all of 20 this information that I got and the story from Gladys and 21 I had published it, talking about, you know, what had 22 happened here and it was -- it was -- to me it was the 23 most appalling story I ever heard about how our people 24 were treated, and hearing the fact that some of their men 25 from here had joined the Army, had gone over and fought
331 the war and when they come -- came home, their -- their 2 homes were gone, you know. 3 And -- and when you think about that, 4 that's appalling, you know, and that's -- and that a 5 country would do that to a people. 6 And -- and here is a -- to me it was 7 really just a blatant evidence of the racism that exists 8 in this country and the racist policies and institutions 9 that -- that during that period of time, that denigrated 10 our people, marginalised our people and continue to be 11 instruments today that continue to do that. 12 And so in -- and I continued to stay in 13 contact with the people here. I have a lot of friends 14 from here. And -- and so -- and even at one (1) point 15 during that time one of the men from -- from Kettle Point 16 gave me a tour of the -- of the Stoney Point area, back 17 in the 70's. 18 And we went back to the lakes and the in- 19 lakes there, and -- and just looked at the -- looked at 20 the area and I was -- I was saying, Man, this is amazing 21 that, I says, I can see why they took it away from you, 22 you know, this is a beautiful place, you know, and I 23 says, you've got to do something about it, you know. 24 And -- and, of course, it wasn't until 25 years later, you know, that we heard that, you know, you
341 heard in the news that, you know, that there was some 2 actions taken around Court actions and attempts to -- to 3 get the land back, you know. And so I've always stayed 4 in -- stayed in touch with the whole issue. 5 Q: And I take it that sometime after the 6 occupation of the -- of the ranges in May of 1993, that 7 you would have heard about that? 8 A: Oh yeah. Yeah. I -- I heard when 9 they did to that, and I says, Way to go. 10 Q: Did you have any advance knowledge 11 that that was going to happen? 12 A: No. No. I -- I wasn't party to 13 that, to them going into -- when they were -- when they 14 occupied the range area. But, when I did hear about it, 15 I says, I -- I knew I think, you know, deep -- deep down 16 and I always felt that -- that someone was going to do 17 something at some point because -- just because of the 18 sheer atrocity of the whole situation, you know. So, I 19 knew that they were going to -- they were going to do 20 something. 21 And -- and then I never got actually 22 involved with it until -- until the day that I got a call 23 to come and do some sensitivity work with the -- or 24 sensitization with the Military. 25 Q: Okay. And you were contacted by whom
351 and when? 2 A: I was thinking about that the other 3 day. It was actually a lady, Anishnabe Kwe, Ojibway 4 woman from -- who was actually from Saugine, who worked 5 for the Provincial Government in Toronto, her name was 6 Priscilla George, she was the one that actually contacted 7 me. She says -- she called me and she says, You know, 8 she says, I just got a call, I don't know who from, from 9 the Department of Defence or somebody, asking if they 10 knew any facilitators around who could go and do some 11 sensitization work with the Military at -- at Ipperwash. 12 And she said, Would you like -- would you 13 like to help do that. I says, Well that sounds 14 interesting. And, I says, And it's just down the road 15 from -- from my home. So, I says, Yeah I wouldn't mind 16 doing that. 17 So, it was arranged and -- and I can't 18 remember whether it was the Captain that called us 19 eventually and then we came in and arranged the dates and 20 -- to come in and do that. 21 Q: When you mention Captain, do you 22 recall his name? 23 A: I believe it was Smith. 24 Q: All right. We've had other -- other 25 evidence that the date of that training was July the 12th
361 and 13th, 1995? 2 A: Yeah. That would be -- probably be - 3 - I knew it was the summertime. 4 Q: And can you tell us what your role 5 was in this training and what the -- what the nature of 6 the training was, what the outcomes were, what the 7 objectives were? 8 A: I was trying to -- after thinking 9 about it, when I knew I was coming here, I was trying to 10 remember exactly what it was. And I think one of -- I -- 11 a bit of the conversation was around that the -- the 12 Military at the time the -- the men that were actually 13 stationed there, they were getting more and more agitated 14 or uncomfortable with the Stoney Point -- Point people 15 living in the -- in the range area. They had now -- I 16 think they had been there for about three (3) years and 17 they weren't going away, you know. 18 They figured, well, once winter came 19 they'd all leave and be gone and that never happened, you 20 know, and so they -- so they were getting more and more 21 uncomfortable. And I guess there was -- at that time 22 there was -- there was bit of badgering that was going 23 on, too, you know, between -- between some of the 24 soldiers and some of the men from -- from Stoney Point. 25 And so our objective was, you know, when
371 they came in was -- when he call us -- cultural 2 sensitization is really -- is about helping people 3 understand your culture, understand your way of -- way of 4 thinking or understand your world view. 5 And that was our intent was to come in and 6 -- and help the Military -- the soldiers there that were 7 in the field at that time to help understand what the 8 situation was about because obviously they had their own 9 -- their own perspective of it, you know. 10 And I guess they wanted to know -- they 11 didn't understand that there are -- there are some deeply 12 rooted feelings and -- and attitudes and beliefs around - 13 - around why that is still Stoney Point land and why the 14 people still believe that and -- and what is -- what is 15 the cultural view, you know, the -- the diversity of 16 culture and the -- the dynamics that were going on at the 17 time. How can we understand that better and if we 18 understand it better, how can it build -- can we build a 19 relationship? 20 And in the end, that was -- that was 21 objective was to try and build a relationship between the 22 Stoney Point people that were occupying the range and the 23 Military. Is that possible to do? And we'll say, Well, 24 yeah, you know, and -- and maybe some of the -- some of 25 the people could sit down and talk about the situation
381 because they have to co-exist in what is termed as the 2 Stoney -- as the Stoney Point area. 3 So, when we came in, we did the 4 sensitization. We -- we explained to them the history 5 from our perspective of what happened to our people here 6 in North America and certainly they didn't have any 7 knowledge of that. 8 And from our perspective, it's important, 9 I think, in a sensitization process to understand how 10 that -- how the invasion of North America, how it impacts 11 the -- the makeup, the characteristic, the -- the dynamic 12 of the Anishnaabeg person or the Ongwahonay person; how 13 it impacts that person, and how it causes certain 14 attitudes and beliefs about society. And -- and the fact 15 that I mean, overall, I mean the number one (1) factor is 16 that it destroys the ability to -- to have any trust 17 between cultures, when you look at that history. 18 People say, Well, why don't you trust the 19 White Man? I say, Why should I? Tell us -- show me one 20 (1) treaty that wasn't broken. You know, show me one (1) 21 agreement that wasn't broken and -- and that's evidence 22 enough right there why you don't trust the White Man, you 23 know, and -- and that's a reality in our communities. 24 You know, when you look at -- you look at 25 this whole situation, I mean, it's a -- it's a blatant --
391 blatant reality, you know, when -- when somebody can come 2 in and expropriate your -- your whole reservation and 3 turn it into a -- a -- a bombing range or a gunning range 4 or a military base. I mean, what kind of integrity is 5 that of -- of that society, you know? 6 When you look at those kind of incidences 7 and the way our people were treated historically, there - 8 - there is -- there is not much to trust about Canadian 9 society in terms of Indian rights or our Native rights or 10 aboriginal rights, you know? 11 I mean, they are constantly, whether it's 12 the Court system or the Government, constantly attempting 13 to chip away at our rights, you know, and -- and they're 14 continuing to do that today? How many -- how many cases 15 are in Court today concerning our rights, you know? And 16 they continue to try and manipulate that system to -- to 17 reduce our rights. 18 In fact, you know, I mean even the 19 constitutional process was a way to reduce our rights. 20 You know, and you look at Section 35 of the constitution 21 and does it afford us our full right as aboriginal 22 people? No, it doesn't, you know. 23 And they -- they went through that whole 24 conversing process to try and limit our capacity to limit 25 our ability to exercise our rights as indigenous people
401 of this Country. 2 So, yeah, there's -- in that process of 3 trying to de -- sensitize the military, they had to 4 understand our view and where we were coming from as 5 indigenous people, you know, and how that was -- how that 6 sets within us a certain attitude, a certain belief about 7 what is -- what is real here, you know. And as a -- can 8 we build a trust process between two (2) parties. 9 When you look at that situation and you 10 try to get the best measure of trust between two (2) -- 11 between a aboriginal or an indigenous party and the 12 Military, you try to build the best trust factor there, 13 even to a point where at least they can share on a daily 14 basis, what is going on. And that was the intent of that 15 process to try and build that. 16 Were we coming to that? I mean, we did 17 have meetings with the Stoney Point people shortly after 18 the training and we were talking to them about, Well, can 19 you sit down with the captain, is it possible to -- to 20 try and work out some arrangements around this co- 21 existence in this territory. There was -- that 22 discussion was going on and we were kind of the mediators 23 of that process, Bruce and myself. 24 So, the -- the most important thing was, 25 one (1) is that they were -- what I remember was that the
411 Military was concerned that their men were getting too 2 agitated to remain and in control of their emotional -- 3 in the field, you know. 4 So, that was -- that was their concern, 5 because they were getting -- because I guess they were 6 around there, I mean, there's always the -- the usual 7 stuff there. There's a lot of racism -- racist kind of 8 statements that -- that the men were making about the 9 Stoney Point people. 10 And so there was -- there was -- they were 11 concerned that -- that they might lose control out there 12 and that was -- and that was one of the reasons why we -- 13 that they were having this sensitization process so that 14 they could -- so that -- so that a situation wouldn't 15 escalate between the military and the Stoney Point 16 people. 17 And so in that process I think that we 18 were very -- I think we were successful in helping people 19 understand the perspective that we have as indigenous 20 people around relationships, treaties, the dynamics of -- 21 between western society and indigenous society; what is 22 the dynamics between those two (2), you know. And I -- 23 and I think we were successful in helping them understand 24 what those were. 25 And in a way, help -- it kind of set in
421 motion, I guess, the eventual decision for them to -- to 2 vacate. 3 Q: All right. And having dealt with the 4 relationship aspect and the sensitization as you put it, 5 do you recall other topics of discussion; for example, 6 the issue about unexploded ordinances and the 7 decommissioning of the army base? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Do you recall that that -- as that 10 being a -- 11 A: Yeah -- 12 Q: -- an issue as well? 13 A: Yeah, there was some discussion 14 around that; that that was one of the -- that was one of 15 their main concerns was that -- that there was unexploded 16 ordinances out there and that they had to continue to 17 secure the area because of that. 18 And I know we understood that, and -- and 19 we said, Well, what is the process? I mean, here you had 20 the Prime Minister just before that, announcing that they 21 were returning the land. 22 I mean, when were they going to do that? 23 What was the process? You know. When were they going to 24 institute a system to make that happen? 25 Of course that, you know, when you're
431 dealing with a -- a Captain at -- at that rank and, you 2 know, in the field down there, they don't have those 3 kinds of answers. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And there was a disconnection between 6 what was -- what the public was hearing and what was 7 happening in the field there, you know. 8 So ,I think that -- that there was a lot 9 of politicizing of the -- of the issue in the surrounding 10 -- with all the parties that were involved with the 11 situation. I think that really didn't allow for any 12 rapid movement and change in -- in the status of -- of 13 the land. And, as we know today, I mean, the land is 14 still, I believe, under DND, is it not? 15 And so there really has never been a -- a 16 real official transfer yet, even though it was announced 17 years ago. 18 Q: Was there a discussion at that time 19 as well, Mr. Antone, about when reversion would occur, 20 that is when the land would be returned? 21 A: No one knew, you know. Certainly at 22 that level of the Military, they didn't know anything 23 about that. They -- they knew that -- I think my sense is 24 of it is that they always felt that announcement by the 25 Government saying that they were going to return the
441 land, put them in a position of jeopardy, you know. 2 Because here, I mean, you've got Native 3 people that are saying, Give me back my land, and they're 4 ready to take the land, and they're having to say, Well, 5 you know, stop, woa, just a minute here, you know, and -- 6 and you've got the Prime Minister saying, Let's give the 7 land back, you know. It -- it created a -- it 8 jeopardized the whole situation. 9 Q: And it was your view that -- that 10 this cross-cultural awareness training that was invited 11 by Captain Smith, that there was a -- a degree of success 12 on that? 13 A: Oh yeah, I would say so. Because I 14 think that, from what I heard before that, well, before 15 there was actual -- the Stoney Point people moved into 16 the -- the main Base, there was a reduction in -- in the 17 incidences that happened between the Stoney Point people 18 and the men that were patrolling the area, you know. 19 That was reduced, you know, in terms of -- 20 I guess there was, like, name calling and, you know, and 21 stuff like that that was going on. And there was always 22 some fear that, you know, something would happen, you 23 know. 24 And I guess there was a reduction in that, 25 you know. People started to calm down, there was less,
451 from what the Captain was saying, there was less -- less 2 intensity, reduced the intensity of the -- of the men on 3 the Base. 4 Q: All right. You've talked about 5 before the people moved onto the main Base and you've 6 also told us, Mr. Antone, that your role as a mediator, 7 that you had various meetings with the Stoney Point 8 group? 9 A: During that time? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Yeah. Well -- 12 Q: And in those various meetings did you 13 have discussions with the people on the ranges, with the 14 -- with the occupiers of their intentions with respect to 15 the Base, that is the built-up area? 16 A: You mean about whether or not they 17 were going to take it over or -- 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: No. In fact, when -- when that did 20 happen it really surprised me. Because I think it was 21 late afternoon when Captain -- when Captain Smith called 22 -- called me and -- and said, Something's going on here, 23 you know. And so -- 24 Q: If I can just interrupt you briefly. 25 The -- do you recall the date that Captain Smith would
461 have called you and provided -- 2 A: No, I can't remember those -- 3 Q: -- this information? 4 A: -- I can't remember that. All I 5 remember is that was when they -- when they moved onto 6 the Base. And so Bruce and I got together and we -- 7 fortunately we were both home at the time, and -- and we 8 got together right away and we came up. 9 Q: When Captain Smith called you, do you 10 recall the nature of the discussion? I appreciate, given 11 the time -- the time that has elapsed since then, that 12 you may not recall the exact words, but do you recall the 13 nature of the discussion? 14 A: All I can say, it was something 15 around, you know, The Stoney Point people are moving onto 16 the Base, we don't know what's going on. And there was - 17 - there was a bit of panic in his voice. I would say a 18 bit of panic, you know, like really -- really -- really 19 concerned. 20 And so we said, Well, we'll come up right 21 away and find out what's going on, you know, and -- 22 Q: So, you and -- you and Mr. Elijah, 23 Bruce Elijah, attended to the Army Base? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what happens when you arrive?
471 A: Well, when we arrive we -- we parked 2 at the gate area and they let us drive right on if 3 remember right. And the Captain met us there and we 4 talked to him and -- and he gave us sort of a description 5 of what was going on. 6 He says that he had -- all of his men were 7 -- were moved, which would be north of the parade area 8 and over on this side and more towards the gate and the 9 Stoney Point people were in the -- on the southeast end 10 of the Camp area, so they would have over that way. 11 He told us where they were concentrated 12 and -- and asked us if we, you know -- I says, Well, 13 we'll go over and talk to them and find out what's going 14 on. 15 He says that he -- at that point I 16 remember him telling us that he had some semi trucks 17 there and they were loading up whatever valuables that 18 they had or -- that they had in the -- in the buildings 19 and in the area. They were already loading them up by 20 that time. 21 And -- and that he says, We're getting 22 everything out that we -- that is -- that is valuable or 23 whatever and he says then , And we're planning on moving 24 it out of here. He says, I just don't want any -- I 25 don't want any confrontation between his men and the
481 Stoney Point people. 2 Q: What was the -- what was the mood 3 like at -- as between the Stoney Point people and -- and 4 the Military? 5 A: It was -- it was pretty tense there. 6 I was -- I know that the soldiers were -- were staying 7 away. Like, they were staying on this side of the -- of 8 the parade area and -- or on what would be the north -- 9 yeah, the north side, the northwest side of the parade 10 area and the Stoney Point people were -- were in the 11 south part of it, which is along the highway area and 12 they were pretty excited, you know. 13 I mean, they were -- they had -- they said 14 that they were in there. I mean, when we went over there 15 they were all excited, they were -- said they weren't 16 going to leave and they said, I don't -- I don't care 17 what you have to say, you know, we're -- we're not 18 leaving and this is our land and -- and all of that. 19 So, there was a lot of -- there was a lot 20 of excited energy during that. And so we -- we sat -- we 21 tried to get some of the men together and we -- we sat 22 with them and talked to them for probably about an hour 23 and we told them, I says, Well, you know, make sure your 24 -- make sure your people don't start -- start fighting 25 with the soldiers, you know. I says, There's no reason
491 to do that. 2 I mean, you're -- you're in here right 3 now. You know, let's -- let's see if we can work 4 something out with the Captain and, you know, and we were 5 just trying to figure out what to do at that point. 6 Q: The Stoney Point people that you were 7 speaking to, did you advise them that the Captain had 8 indicated to you that they were going to be removing 9 their assets and -- and vacating? 10 A: Yeah, yeah. We told them that they 11 were removing their assets, but we didn't know at that 12 point whether or not they were going to vacate. 13 Q: I see. 14 A: And then, so, after we talked with 15 the Stoney Point people, then we went back over and 16 talked to Captain Smith and talked to him about what was 17 going on, what he thought and -- and we -- and he says, 18 Well, what do you think is going to happen? 19 I says, Well, I said, I don't think 20 they're going to leave. You know, I says, probably the 21 only way you're going to -- the only way they're going to 22 leave is that you're going to have to force them out of 23 here. 24 And -- and he says, Well, I -- he says, I 25 don't want to do that. You know, he said, I don't want
501 to -- I don't want to start a fight, you know. Like, I 2 says -- I says, You're going to -- you're going to have a 3 fight if you try. I says, that's pretty obvious, you 4 know. 5 And so we had -- and so when we were 6 having that discussion around that, I said -- you know, 7 one (1) of the things I mentioned, Well, you know this 8 land's already -- they already said they were going to 9 give it back. Well, why don't you just leave? 10 You know, why start a big fight here? You 11 know, and all it's -- people are just going to get hurt. 12 You know, what are you losing? I mean, you got all your 13 assets loaded up and, you know, let's just -- I mean, 14 we'll stay here, we'll go over and tell them, you know 15 just -- leave you guys alone, you know, get your stuff 16 out of here and we make sure that they don't interfere 17 with what you guys are doing. 18 And -- and so that's basically what it 19 was, was I mean, we ended up being kind of -- to help 20 them to -- help them to move, by keeping the -- the real 21 owners of the land at bay, you know. 22 I guess if you want to call it that, and 23 so we went over and talked to them and we told them, Look 24 it, it looks like they're going to leave. They said, 25 They can't leave until they're ordered to leave.
511 I said, That's the reality. You know, I 2 says -- and the Captain says, Well, he says, I'll call 3 Ottawa and find out what to do. 4 And so he called, I guess, whatever their 5 command post is, I guess, and talked to people there and 6 it wasn't until later that evening that he finally got -- 7 they finally told him to vacate. 8 Q: Up to that point in time, did you 9 have any dealings at all with the Kettle and Stoney Point 10 Band council? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Now, I expect, Mr. 13 Antone, that -- perhaps before I go there, part of your 14 role as a negotiator, as a mediator would be to 15 facilitate discussion, to facilitate communication -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- between the two (2) parties and -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- from what you've told us, that is 20 what it appears to me, in any event, that you were doing. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And anything that would be said on one 23 side, you would repeat to the other party and vice versa. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And did you, at -- I expect we may
521 hear some evidence, Mr. Antone, that you had reported to 2 Captain Smith that the Stoney Point group was armed. Do 3 you recall saying anything like that? 4 A: No. No, I would -- they were -- they 5 weren't armed. They were angry, but they weren't armed. 6 Q: You've told us then that Captain 7 Smith received a phone call or had made a phone call and 8 had eventually, ultimately received orders to vacate. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Were you present when that happened? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Where you present when the phone call 13 was -- 14 A: No, I wasn't -- 15 Q: -- made? 16 A: He -- he went into the -- they had an 17 office off on the north side of the gate and that's where 18 he had gone in and when he came out, he says, he just 19 said that he had his orders to leave and so they were 20 going to do that. 21 By that time, I believe the semis or the 22 trucks that were loaded down had left and there was just, 23 I think, a few vehicles that they were taking out and so 24 we just tried to help him to make sure that we stayed 25 with him until he walked out of the gate.
531 Because, by this time, the people had -- 2 had moved towards the gate and they were in the gate 3 area, the Stoney Point people, as well as there was 4 people arriving from Kettle Point as well, so there was 5 more and more people gathering there and so -- so I 6 remember that we --Bruce and I both just stayed with the 7 Captain and he was -- he made sure all of his men were 8 out and then he was the last one to get in his vehicle 9 and drive his vehicle out of the gate. 10 And there was -- I mean it was pretty 11 tense, still, at that point, and we just stayed in 12 between him and -- and the Stoney Point people because 13 there was, you know, I mean, they were -- they wanted to 14 argue and they wanted to make their point and we just 15 told them, Why don't you get out of there, it's just -- I 16 says, Don't respond, I says, Just -- just get in your car 17 and leave, you know, and which he eventually did. 18 Q: And do you recall, Mr. Antone, 19 whether at that time there was any discussion as between 20 the Captain or any other authority of the military and 21 anybody with -- among the Stoney Point group as to the 22 maintenance of the infrastructure, water treatment, 23 anything like that at that time? 24 A: No. 25
541 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And aside from your involvement, as 4 you've just described, on the -- on that occasion, which 5 I'm going to suggest to you is the 29th of July, 1995, 6 did you have a further role to play? 7 A: No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And once the Stoney Point group was 12 on the base, Mr. Antone, in the built-up area, did you 13 have a role with the -- with the occupiers at all, in 14 terms of providing them advice as to next steps or what 15 to do or what not to do? 16 A: No, I remember just -- just -- we did 17 have a meeting with a few of them, saying, Hey look it, 18 you guys won your case, you got your land back. You 19 know, they're gone, take care of it. You know, take care 20 of what you got. 21 You know, and -- and I think we stayed 22 around visit with them for a little while and then we -- 23 then we left. We didn't stay around too long, though. 24 Probably less than an hour. 25 Q: All right. We understand, Mr.
551 Antone, that one of the outcomes of the cross-cultural 2 awareness training, that had taken place on the 12th and 3 13th of July, was a plan for a further meeting to occur, 4 on or about the 26th of August. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Do you recall that? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And do you know whether or not, first 9 of all, that that meeting occurred on the 26th of August, 10 1995? 11 A: No, I don't think it did. I think it 12 -- you know, if -- if it continued to go on, I think what 13 our -- if I remember right, I think there was supposed to 14 be like -- we were supposed to meet with the military and 15 then go back and meet with Stoney Point people and 16 eventually, at some point, Kettle Point would have to 17 have been brought into that, process. 18 And -- but it never -- it never occurred, 19 you know. Everything kind of mushroomed after that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: In terms of any of your discussions, 24 whether prior to this or up to that point, Mr. Antone, do 25 you recall whether you or whether you were in the
561 presence of anyone in term -- in -- where the -- a 2 discussion about the issue of -- of firearms was raised? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I remember -- what I remember of 7 those -- of some discussions around that was that it was 8 always -- the question was always raised about -- about 9 1990, you know. They knew that we were inside of the 10 treatment centre in Haudenosainee and they knew that 11 there was weapons involved in that situation. 12 And -- and when they had asked -- I 13 remember people asking us about that. I said, well, you 14 know, they had them in 1990, you know. What's -- why 15 can't we have them today, you know? And I says, Well, 16 you know when you think about it, I says, in 1990 they 17 were of little value in 1990. 18 You know, of course, they scare everybody, 19 I says, but I says, you know -- and I remember those 20 kinds of discussions. I says -- I says, I don't support 21 that kind of idea. I says, You're in a -- you're -- 22 you're in a win-win situation right now. I says, You 23 bring weapons into it, you're in a win/lose situation and 24 you're going to be a loser. 25 You know, and I says, I would never
571 support anyone who -- who brought weapons into a 2 situation like that. I says they -- they are only going 3 to jeopardize the cause, you know, and that's always been 4 a point that I've always advocated over the -- over the 5 years, you know, that they only endanger everyone. 6 You know, and they don't do justice to our 7 cause. So if there was any discussion it was a 8 discussion to discourage them even thinking about things 9 like that, but there was certainly no -- no weapons that 10 I ever seen in that -- in the situation there. 11 Q: And do you recall, Mr. Antone, 12 whether among the Stoney Point group, whether there was 13 anybody that shared the sentiments you expressed? 14 A: Did anybody in -- you mean in Stoney 15 Point? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Oh yeah, there was -- I would say 18 that the majority of them understood that. You know, I 19 think -- I think a lot of times that kind of talk is -- I 20 call it ego talk. You know, and -- and people have to 21 have that kind of discussion because it -- it -- it's 22 part of the reality, you know. 23 I mean, they're saying, Well all of these 24 -- these people coming at us, they all got guns, you 25 know, and -- and all of that kind of discussions. So
581 it's -- well, it's because they're -- they don't know how 2 to -- how to fight in a good way, you know. And I says 3 that, Our -- our way of life does not -- does not 4 advocate that kind of -- that kind of action. 5 And so I think that -- I think a lot of 6 the people there recognized that. And certainly I -- I 7 would imagine that they did because I've never ever seen 8 anything like -- any kind of weapon used in that respect, 9 hey. 10 You know, I understand that there were 11 hunters in there and -- and they -- they'd go out and go 12 hunting once in awhile. But even then I never even seen 13 that -- those weapons, if they did use, you know, their 14 hunting weapons so. 15 Q: Okay. And given your -- given your 16 advice to them and your -- your discussion to them that 17 you discouraged that sort of thing and what you've told 18 us earlier about your role and your -- and traditional 19 teachings as a peacekeeper -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- is that consistent or? 22 A: I would -- I would hope so. I was -- 23 I hope I'm not sounding schizophrenic here, you know, and 24 I would say it's very much consistent. 25 Q: Following this, we have come to
591 understand, Mr. Antone, that in September of 1995, people 2 had moved then from the built-up area an in fact moved to 3 occupy the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: And I take it that you became aware 6 of that at some point? 7 A: Yeah. I think I was -- I was trying 8 to find my planner for that year but I think I already -- 9 it was already -- it's already been lost, and -- but I 10 believe I was out of town during that -- during that 11 time. And I remember being called from someplace that 12 this was occurring. 13 And -- and in fact I -- I think that they 14 were there probably three (3) or four (4) days before the 15 actual incident happened, hey. And, but I think most of 16 the -- of the information that I became about it was 17 after the incident, where I talked to people about, you 18 know -- you know, What real -- what happened, you know, 19 What occurred, you know, How come. And -- and so people 20 were telling me after. But I wasn't -- wasn't aware that 21 they were going to do that. 22 But I certainly when they -- when there 23 was trouble I -- they did call me and I came up after 24 that. 25 Q: And when you say, they called you,
601 who would that be? 2 A: You know, I -- I can't remember who 3 it was but I know there was a message on my machine at 4 the time saying that -- it was a very excited message, 5 that -- that's somebody's been shot, you know, there's, 6 you know, there's all, like, basically all hell breaking 7 loose up in Ipperwash, you know. 8 And so I -- I tried to find Bruce and -- 9 and I know that -- that day I -- I couldn't find him that 10 day and I -- I just came up at that time. 11 Q: Okay. Now, during the -- during the 12 summer, leading up to this event, had you heard any 13 discussion among the people in occupation of -- of Camp 14 Ipperwash as to their intentions with respect to the 15 Park? 16 A: You know, I can't honestly say 17 whether it was before or after what I -- what I heard, 18 you know. Well, I mean, it was always what I heard, 19 whether they were going to occupy it or not, I didn't 20 know, but I all -- but I -- what I did hear before and 21 what I've heard probably years before that was that the 22 area was a burial ground, you know. And -- and people 23 were always upset that it became a, you know, a park, you 24 know. 25 And -- and I says, Well, I says, You know,
611 I -- I mean, it's no different from -- I says, That 2 society doesn't have much respect for our -- for our 3 people who are living, let alone our people who have 4 died, you know, and are buried. 5 I says, You take a look at Haudenosainee, 6 I mean, the whole incident in Oka, they were planning on 7 bulldozing the graveyard there, you know, and turning it 8 -- and extending their golf course, that's what the whole 9 incident was about. 10 That's what the whole incident was about 11 there. They wanted to turn the grave yard into a golf 12 course, you know, and -- and I says, When you have a 13 society that has that much disrespect for our people, you 14 know, I says, What -- what do you expect? You know, so I 15 know that the Stoney Point people are -- that area was 16 always viewed as a -- as a burial ground and a -- and a 17 sacred area, you know. 18 So, it didn't surprise me, you know, when 19 I actually -- when they -- when they did occupy it, it 20 didn't surprise me, you know. 21 And I thought they -- I thought they did - 22 - and I don't know whether it was really -- sometimes you 23 know, you wonder -- I wonder sometimes whether it was 24 really an organized effort, because -- because when you 25 look at what happened, when they -- they were up there --
621 they were up there having a picnic and they were having a 2 picnic there because the weather was nice and all the 3 campers were gone home. They had already closed the 4 Park, you know. 5 And, so they were having a -- they went up 6 there and had a -- had a picnic up there. They had -- it 7 was a beautiful place, too, as well. So, you know, so, 8 they were up there enjoying the area and -- and then it 9 mushroomed into this whole incident. 10 Q: I take it that this is something you 11 learned? You've just advised us that you arrived, then, 12 on the scene after the shooting? 13 A: Yeah, yeah. 14 Q: All right. And can you tell us when 15 it was that you did arrive at -- at Camp Ipperwash or at 16 Stoney Point? 17 A: You know, I -- I was trying to -- I 18 think it was the -- it had to have been the day after. I 19 don't know if it was the day after or two (2) days after, 20 but it was -- there was still a lot of police in the 21 area, I mean, the area was pretty much -- pretty tight. 22 It was pretty much shut down. 23 And -- when I came in and -- but, somehow 24 I -- I came -- I drove right into the Camp and -- and 25 then I went up to -- went up -- they showed me where the
631 site was and -- and then in the -- at that time, I mean 2 we -- we offered our tobacco at that time as we came 3 there because it was -- whenever there's a death, there's 4 a certain way you have to go into the area for ourselves, 5 so, we had to go in there and put tobacco down and pay 6 our respects, to what -- what has happened. 7 And -- and then from there, at that point 8 I think I was contacted -- we tried to talk to the -- to 9 the people -- to the family at the time. I mean, there 10 was a lot of emotions running at that time and it was 11 mainly just to try and calm everybody down, calm the 12 situation down and -- but it was -- it was -- it was just 13 really an emotional state at that point. 14 While I was there I was -- I believe I was 15 contacted by the Chiefs of Ontario office as -- as well 16 through Gord Peters, who was the Regional Chief at the 17 time and -- and said that they were coming into the area. 18 Him and his assistant, I believe, was -- was Richard 19 Pawless and -- and they said they wanted me to, you know, 20 brief, you know, find out as much as I could and then 21 brief them as -- when they came into the area. And -- 22 and just to -- to look at the overall situation. 23 There was -- I was just trying to 24 remember all -- everything was just rolling, like, it was 25 -- it was pretty crazy around that time and I remember
641 looking for -- yeah, when I had arrived there, it was -- 2 it was actually in the evening, because I was looking for 3 -- looking for Bruce, I believe, and -- because he was 4 already in discussions, I believe -- I believe with the 5 OPP and the APS at the time. 6 I believe it was Anishnaabeg Policing 7 Services was involved and they were trying to -- I guess 8 they were having discussions to try and figure out what 9 to do. 10 The primary focus, right around that time, 11 was -- was -- I remember shortly afterwards, I guess to 12 secure the area. But, as well as to try and secure -- 13 secure the area where the incident happened, where Dudley 14 was shot, so that the investigations unit could come in - 15 - and so I remember going -- 16 Q: I want to deal -- I want to deal with 17 that area in -- in some detail, Mr. Antone -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- but I'm wondering, Mr. 20 Commissioner, if this is an appropriate time for the 21 morning break? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 23 be a good time -- 24 THE WITNESS: To take a break? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to take a
651 break. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 10:31 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Mr. Antone, just before the break, 17 you were telling us that shortly after your arrival, or 18 at some point after your arrival at Camp Ipperwash at 19 Stoney Point, on the 7th of September 1995, that you were 20 eventually shown to the site. 21 I believe you used the -- used the phrase, 22 "they showed us to the site." 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I guess I would ask you just to 25 clarify on that, first of all who "they" is and who "us"
661 would be? 2 When you say they showed us to the site, 3 who was it that you recall would have shown you to the 4 site where Mr. Dudley George was shot? 5 A: I can't remember everyone, but I 6 believe one of them was -- was Glenn -- was Glenn George. 7 But I can't remember, I know it was some of the family 8 members and -- that had taken us up to the area, up to 9 the Park, because we had gone into the camp gate and took 10 the road up to the -- up to the site. 11 Q: Okay. And when you say, "us," I take 12 it you were with somebody else? 13 A: No, I wasn't. I was probably -- 14 that's probably just my plural term for -- 15 Q: All right. And can you tell us, when 16 you arrived there, what was it that you would have 17 observed in terms of that site? 18 A: Well, actually when the -- when I was 19 there, they walked me through what happened. The people 20 that -- there was people there who were -- who were there 21 at the time and they took me through what happened, where 22 they were seated, the area that they were sitting in or 23 having a picnic, and which was about, oh, I don't know, 24 maybe two hundred (200) feet away from the fence. 25 Then they showed me where the fence area
671 was, where that kind of sandy area was that goes down to 2 the beach and then where the road -- the paved section 3 is. 4 And we walked out to that. They showed me 5 where -- they had already marked the area where Dudley 6 had fell and then they took me out onto the road and then 7 down the road where the -- the OPP -- I guess where they 8 were -- about where they were dragging Bernard and where 9 they were taking him and then -- then beyond that, they 10 took me over to where -- where I guess what was perceived 11 or what they felt was -- was the OPP kind of field 12 office, which was a trailer and all of the site and 13 everything was all abandoned at that point. 14 Q: Okay. It will be described as the 15 tactical operations centre? 16 A: Yeah, yeah. 17 Q: Did you have occasion to view inside 18 of any of the facilities that were being used? 19 A: Yeah, we looked inside. I mean they 20 had -- I -- what I remember is that there -- there was 21 maps and -- and that was basically it. I think mostly 22 everything was -- was gone at that point. I mean, there 23 was furniture around in there and stuff like that, but -- 24 I remember there was -- there was some computers there 25 too as well.
681 Q: Okay. And at that point when you 2 were shown around by various individuals, did you see 3 whether or not these individuals had taken anything from 4 those facilities? 5 A: I don't know whether there was 6 anything to take at that point. There was -- I don't 7 think -- I don't think there was. 8 Q: And given what you observed at the 9 sandy parking lot, in that area, did you see whether or 10 not there had been any steps taken to secure or otherwise 11 preserve that area for the investigation that would 12 ultimately ensue? 13 A: Yeah. They were -- they were 14 attempting to, you know, to keep the area so that no one 15 disturbed the area. But, I think that at that point 16 there was even -- I mean, I remember somebody coming to 17 me and showing me, like, what would you call it, spent 18 shells I guess, that some of them had picked up. They 19 were laying around the area. 20 I mean, they probably should have left 21 them alone but somebody had picked some -- picked some of 22 those up and they had -- and they told them, Well put 23 them in a bag and save them, and, you know, all that. 24 Whether that ever happened, I don't know. 25 So, I was -- when I went there I finally -
691 - when I finally got connected with Bruce and others, 2 they had -- they had finally had arranged a meeting and 3 by then I believe some other people had come into the 4 area and, like, the Regional Chief and -- and that. We 5 like -- I remember going down after being in the area for 6 a while. 7 I was -- I was up there for maybe an hour 8 or so and then I left and went down to the main camp and 9 -- and connected up with some people, I think either by 10 phone or whatever, and -- and they made arrangements to - 11 - I can't remember. 12 I think that it seemed like the -- the 13 biggest fear that -- that I remember hearing is that they 14 were afraid that they were going to take the Park or take 15 the land back away from them. And, I says, Well I don't 16 think that's going to happen. And we just had to figure 17 out what -- what needs to happen now. I says, There -- 18 this -- this whole incident has to be investigated. 19 So, I remember going to a meeting with the 20 OPP, I believe it was at Stony Point -- Kettle Point Band 21 office. And I -- and I can't remember which day it was, 22 whether it was that day or the next day or what, but I 23 remember going there and the whole discussion was around, 24 Well we've got to have access to the site to do an 25 investigation, and all that kind of stuff.
701 And I says -- because I had asked them, I 2 says, What's -- what is the problem, what's -- what needs 3 to be done here. And they says, Well, they says, we need 4 access to the site and we need to -- so that the 5 investigations unit can come in and then we can -- we can 6 do an investigation and find out what happened. 7 And -- and then -- so I says, Well what 8 was the stumbling block. They were saying, Well the 9 people over at Stoney Point won't let us do the 10 investigation. 11 Says, Well I don't think -- I don't think 12 that's the case because I just came from there and 13 everybody's talking about it, like, you know, Why did 14 they do this, you know, we want to know why, you know, 15 and, you know, Let's -- let's find the answers, let's do 16 an -- why are they investigating it, or whatever. 17 I mean, those were kind of -- some many 18 questions out there. So, I says, Well, I says, Wait 19 here, I says. And I believe Gord Peters and myself, we 20 went back over to Stoney Point and -- and said, Hey, you 21 know, these guys, the OPP and the investigation unit 22 wants to come in and -- and they want a guarantee of 23 their safety, and all that kind of stuff, because they're 24 saying that you guys are preventing an investigation and 25 all that.
711 Which we knew at that point was the 2 furthest thing from the truth. It was -- to me it was an 3 exaggerated excuse not to -- to do anything right away, 4 you know. I think, well, I mean, I -- the tensions were 5 pretty high on both sides because, I mean, somebody just 6 -- somebody got killed, you know. 7 So, they said that, what they had asked, 8 if you could have the Native police secure the area, 9 they'd have no problem, you know, with doing an 10 investigation. 11 So, we went back and we said, you know, 12 There's no problem, you know, having Indian police come 13 in and secure the area and they would be more than 14 willing to cooperate. 15 And all they wanted to know, is they 16 wanted to make sure that -- that they -- that they had 17 someone that was involved. And I think we had -- at that 18 point we had designated someone to be there to help watch 19 the situation as the investigation unfolded. 20 And then that was arranged. 21 Q: Just if I can -- if I can back up for 22 a moment, and get some clarification, Mr. Antone. The 23 meeting that you had with the OPP at the Kettle Point 24 Band office or administration centre, do you recall who 25 it was that would have been representative of the OPP at
721 that meeting? 2 A: No, I don't. I can't remember his 3 name. 4 Q: You mentioned the investigation unit. 5 I gather you're referring to the special investigations 6 unit? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And do you recall who would have been 9 representing that body? 10 A: No, I can't remember the name either. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: You've had a -- an opportunity during 15 the break, Mr. Antone, to review a memorandum of 16 understanding that bears a date of around the 17th of 17 September, marked in these Proceedings as P-47. 18 And first of all, you did take a look at 19 that document? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And you're familiar with that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that is a memorandum of 24 understanding that you were part and parcel of 25 negotiating --
731 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- and what you have just spoken to? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right, okay. And beyond the 5 assistance that you rendered in allowing access or in 6 gaining access by the OPP and the SIU together with a 7 First Nations investigative team, did you have a further 8 role, Mr. Antone? 9 A: No, I didn't. At that point I -- I 10 think I might have been around a couple more days just as 11 a concerned observer. 12 When the Minister of Indian Affairs came 13 around, I think it was during that period of time. And I 14 don't know whether that was before the 25th or after, I 15 was -- I went up there just to hear what was going on 16 there. 17 We tried to facilitate -- I was with Chief 18 Peters at the time and we were -- we had hoped to try and 19 see whether the Minister would actually go to the site 20 and go to -- to the -- to Stoney Point but he refused to. 21 You know, he said it was too un -- I guess 22 too unstable a situation whatever. 23 Q: All right. And you said that, "we 24 had designated." Again, I just want to get some 25 clarification from you.
741 "We had designated somebody to sort of 2 watch that." 3 I take it that, as your role diminished, 4 there would have been someone else to continue in an 5 observation capacity? 6 A: Hmm hmm. Following the incidents, 7 one (1) of the -- one (1) of the people that we asked to 8 go over and -- and to continue observation and -- of the 9 situation, because they had -- the Stoney Point people 10 had requested our presence at the -- in the Camp and, of 11 course, you know, I mean myself, I'm too busy to -- to 12 stay there. 13 So we had asked around and one (1) of the 14 persons that volunteered to do that was Layton and so he 15 was -- he was designated to go over and -- and be with 16 them. 17 Q: And again, for clarification, who 18 would have designated him to be with them? 19 A: I would say probably -- because the 20 request -- I remember during -- whether it was during 21 that particular -- I think it was around that particular 22 time, the family had come to the longhouse and had asked 23 if --if our Council, the Chief's Council would designate 24 someone to continue to work with them, you know, to help 25 them out and it was out of that request that we sent
751 Layton to do that. 2 Q: And this would have came from the -- 3 from the -- 4 A: Family at Stoney Point, yeah. 5 Q: And in terms of the designation, that 6 would have been by the Oneida Longhouse? 7 A: Yeah, the Oneida Longhouse. Yeah, 8 the Council there. 9 Q: All right. Okay. If I could just 10 have a moment. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DONALD WORME: I think those are all 15 the questions that I have for Mr. Antone at this point, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Who wishes to examine Mr. Antone? We'll take 19 a quick -- Mr. Klippenstein...? 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About fifteen 21 (15) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 23 minutes. 24 And Mr. Rosenthal...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About half an hour.
761 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About a half 2 an hour? And Mr. Ross...? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps ten (10) 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps ten 6 (10) minutes. 7 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: About five (5) 9 minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About 11 five (5) minutes. 12 Mr. Roland...? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: A little longer; maybe 14 an hour and a half. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Hourigan...? 17 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Fifteen (15) 18 minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 O'Marra...? 21 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (10) to ten (10) 22 minutes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 24 should be able to complete the examination today. We'll 25 start right away and get right into it and we should be
771 able to get through it. 2 We usually adjourn at 3:30 on Thursday. 3 If we have to stay a little longer we will, but we should 4 be able to be finished by 3:30. 5 Mr. Klippenstein, do you want to start? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 10 Q: Good morning, Mr. Antone. 11 A: Good morning. 12 Q: My name is Murray Klippenstein, I'm 13 one (1) of the legal Counsel for the Estate of Dudley 14 George and for Sam George and other brothers and sisters 15 of -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- of Dudley George. I, first of 18 all, wanted to get a little clarification on something 19 you mentioned in your testimony about your role as Chief. 20 I think you mentioned you were a Chief of the Turtle 21 clan, is that right? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: and my impression was that that was a 24 Chief in -- in the traditional structure of your 25 governance rather than, for example, as elected under the
781 Indian Act; is that right? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: Could you say just a bit more about 4 your position as Chief and how that fit in with your -- 5 your governing structure traditionally? 6 A: Well, in a -- from where I sit, I sit 7 in the Turtle clan and there are three (3) Chiefs in the 8 Turtle clan. And -- and I represent one (1) of the 9 extended families. And so in -- in -- in deliberation in 10 our Council, each of the three (3) -- three (3) -- the 11 three (3) -- the three (3) clans council together, the 12 Wolf clan, the Bear clan and the Turtle clan. 13 And so as -- when we do that, we -- when a 14 solution or an issue comes on the floor, it's usually 15 introduced by the well of the nation, which is the Turtle 16 clan and then the fire keepers are the Wolf clan and the 17 Bear clan has their own designated responsibilities. 18 So, we try to -- when an issue is put on 19 the floor, we -- we keep discussing that issue until we 20 come to a consensus -- a solution by consensus. And then 21 that's presented to the floor or it's -- it's -- once 22 it's all folded together, the Wolf clan will announce it 23 and say, This is what we've resolved, this is our 24 solution, and this is how we're going to take care of the 25 -- the issues.
791 Q: And is -- is that system of Chiefs 2 that you're a part of a traditional one that goes quite 3 far back historically? 4 A: Oh, yeah, it's -- as I had mentioned 5 earlier, it's a system of government that has been in 6 place as far as we know, well over fifteen hundred 7 (1,500) years and -- 8 Q: And then you mentioned something else 9 in your testimony about an occasion in the 1920s or '30s, 10 when you said the Canadian Government and the RCMP had 11 imposed the Indian Act elective system on your people. 12 Can you tell me a bit more about that? 13 A: Yeah. That happened in 1934; I 14 believe it was in the June of that year. Prior to that 15 our -- our -- see, our people originally moved to -- to 16 Southern Ontario from Upstate New York in 1840. And we - 17 - we came here to -- and left our area because of the -- 18 there was just too many white people in Upstate New York. 19 So, we moved here hoping that there would be less of 20 them, and -- and at that time there was. 21 And so when we came here it was -- it was 22 also to rebuild our Nation as well. At that time we were 23 -- we were -- our commun -- our Nation was in pretty sad 24 shape in -- in 1840. 25 We had -- we had -- most of our -- during
801 the wars down there, lot of our territory was destroyed. 2 We had huge orchards that were burnt, cut and burnt by 3 the US Military and -- and also the -- the wars have -- 4 they burnt many of our villages. And so we were seeking 5 refuge by that time, by -- and so we came up here. 6 And -- and there's a long story about why 7 we chose this place too as well, but we -- when we came 8 here our -- our Nation was governed, our community was 9 governed by the traditional chiefs up until 1934. 10 And then -- and for a number of years the 11 Indian agent that operated out of the Caridoc Agency out 12 of -- which was -- the Indian Agent Office was located 13 right across the river in -- on -- in a Chippewa 14 community, in the village of Muncey, was where the Indian 15 agent, Caridoc, and the RCMP were stationed. 16 And they -- and they controlled the -- the 17 communities in that area; Chippewa, Muncey of the Thames 18 and as well as Oneida, as well as all the other 19 communities too. That was the main agency that -- of 20 Indian Affairs that controlled Southern Ontario, the 21 Indian communities in Southern Ontario. 22 So, by 1934 they -- they held an election 23 in our community, which I believe only -- I can't 24 remember but there's -- I haven't read that material for 25 a while and -- but there was only about twenty-six (26)
811 people that actually voted in the election that elected 2 the first -- first Council. And it was supposed to be an 3 trial-and-error situation, well, they said, Well -- well 4 you guys can try it out for a while if you like it. 5 But, what happened just before that was 6 that there was a meeting held with the Indian agent; they 7 said they did not want to accept the system. And -- and 8 the man I was telling you before, the Demus Elm who was 9 one of my teachers, he was -- he was present at that 10 meeting and he was the secretary of the Council. 11 And when he left he said, We are not 12 accepting this, we already have our system of government. 13 So, he left and took the minute book and -- of the 14 meetings and all the documents of meetings at that time 15 and left the meeting. And then most of the leadership at 16 that time walked out of the meeting. 17 But, the government proceeded, because 18 they had some allies in our community who were 19 acculturated, who were assimilated by the system by that 20 time, and they chose to accept this white man system of 21 government that was imposed on us. 22 Q: And you said that in the first 23 election something like twenty-six (26) people voted? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Was that a small or very small or
821 what -- 2 A: Yeah. That's a very small number. I 3 think historically we have on the average, I mean, even 4 in the elections today, there's probably less than 20 5 percent of the eligible voters participate in the 6 elections. 7 Q: And am I correct in understanding 8 that the system, the traditional system of leadership of 9 which you are a part, now continues in your community as 10 it has -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- for hundreds of years or more -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- apart from the election system 15 under the Indian Act? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: I see. And you mentioned in your 18 original testimony, the RCMP as having some kind of role 19 in that imposition of the electoral -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- system. Why did you mention the 22 RCMP? 23 A: Because they were the ones that 24 policed our communities up until, well maybe about 19 -- 25 I remember them being around there in the '60's, so
831 probably around until about 1970, I think they policed 2 our communities. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: No, I think it might have been even 5 earlier than that. I think -- I know there was an 6 agreement in 1965 between the Province and the Federal 7 Government and Indian Affairs that shifted some of the 8 jurisdictions and responsibilities of services coming 9 into our communities. 10 I know that happened in 1965; whether that 11 included policing at the time, I don't know. I know by 12 late '60's we did have RCMP officers. Some of them were 13 auxiliary, if you would call them auxiliary or they were 14 native RCMP officers. 15 Q: But, prior to that time, and back to 16 when the election system was imposed, the RCMP were a 17 presence in your community -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- is that what you're saying? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: One (1) of the reasons I'm asking 22 about this is that as you probably know, Dudley George 23 was protesting and was shot, not on the Federal lands of 24 the Army Camp, but on the lands of Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park --
841 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- which were -- 3 A: But definitely on Ojibway land. 4 Q: Okay, can you explain that? 5 A: I would say that of this territory, 6 if you want to look at it, I mean you can designate it 7 all you want in terms of whether it's federal or 8 provincial land, it is Ojibway Anishnaabe land. Bottom 9 line, underlying title is Anishnaabe title. 10 As much as your documents and agreements 11 or paperwork that you have that say it is Crown land or 12 whatever, it is Anishnaabe land first, and that is 13 foremost in our minds. 14 Q: When you describe that land as 15 Anishnaabe land, let me ask you about treaties, because 16 you've mentioned treaties. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: We've heard evidence that in this 19 area there was a treaty between the Crown and the 20 Chippewa people back almost two hundred (200) years ago-- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- that in that treaty the Crown made 23 some land promises and that those land promises included 24 that certain blocks of land would be preserved as native 25 land in perpetuity, including at Kettle Point and at
851 Stony Point -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- and that the Stoney Point reserve 4 that was originally set out in that Treaty included the 5 lands that later became the Army Camp and it included the 6 lands that later became the Provincial Park. 7 Is it fair to say that a treaty such as 8 this is a recognition, in your experience, of the 9 reserves as being and continuing to be, native land? 10 A: Absolutely. 11 Q: And is it fair to say from your 12 comments about the Federal and Provincial jurisdictional 13 issue that, from your point of view, when the treaty says 14 that this original Stoney Point reserve is native land in 15 perpetuity, that, from your point of view, it doesn't 16 matter what later Federal or Provincial jurisdictional 17 complications are put on it, it should continue to be 18 recognized as native land. 19 Is that fair? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And so from that point of view, from 22 the treaty point of view, whether Dudley was protesting 23 and was shot on Army Camp lands that were Federally 24 regulated -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
861 Q: -- or provincial park lands that were 2 provincially regulated, it would make no difference; is 3 that fair? 4 A: It wouldn't make any difference. 5 Q: Now, one (1) of the rationales that 6 was put forward, and this, I anticipate, will be brought 7 forward in the evidence, in 1995 with respect to the 8 protest by Dudley George and others, was that the 9 Ipperwash Park lands, even if they were originally treaty 10 lands, had been surrendered in 1928 by the community in a 11 vote. 12 Now, given your personal history and 13 personal experience as a -- as a chief in the traditional 14 system in your community and given your knowledge of 15 aboriginal history, and given what you've described about 16 the imposition of the electoral system in your community 17 by the Canadian government in the -- in the '30s, would 18 it be fair to say that there was an attitude in the 19 Canadian government, in that period, that did not 20 particularly respect native consent on issues of -- of 21 governance and land? 22 A: Say that last part again? 23 Q: Is it -- is it -- is it fair to say 24 that there was an attitude in the Canadian Government, 25 during that period, that didn't particularly respect
871 native consent on issues of tradition or native land? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Well, I would say it 3 definitely is more than an attitude. When I look at the 4 -- the -- the historical facts and when you look at the 5 loss of land that we encountered and you look at some of 6 those agreements, I mean, you can -- you can drag up all 7 kinds of agreements where it says, you know, We -- we 8 treatied with you for this land. 9 I can show you thirty-one (31) documents 10 in the State of New York where New York State says, We're 11 -- We bought your land and from the -- from the 1820s up 12 until 1838, and every one of those agreements are 13 illegal. Every one of those agreements were -- were 14 fraudulent. So, what happened in 1928, is it -- is that 15 document the truth? 16 You can raise a lot of questions around it 17 because most of the land that was secured by the Crown, 18 if you want to call it the Crown or the Government during 19 those treaties were -- it was illegally done. Our 20 people, in many cases, did not surrender land. 21 You know, even though those agreements 22 were -- were done, in fact, I was just meeting with a -- 23 with a group for the last two (2) days about the Huron 24 Robinson Treaty. You know, they came up there and they 25 had them all sign the agreement and the agreement wasn't
881 even written. 2 Then they took the document, they took the 3 signatures and they went -- went down to Toronto or York 4 at the time, and -- and then they filled in the document, 5 so is that -- is that a good treaty? You know, and they 6 got the signatures on it, but is that really -- was that 7 really the intent? 8 I would say that the vast majority of the 9 land in this country was stolen from the First Nation 10 people and that whether -- you can put all kinds of 11 documents on the table and say that they were treatied 12 for, but I would say the vast majority of the land is -- 13 is untreatied land or was stolen from our people. And 14 many of those documents are illegal. 15 And even if the documents do exist, they 16 all have been broken. You know, I don't -- I don't know 17 a treaty today that has not been broken and when you 18 break a treaty, it's supposed to -- the treaty is no good 19 after that. 20 So, if the treaty is no good, it means 21 that all the land belongs to the First Nation people, 22 because every one of those treaties have been violated. 23 So, that to me, is where we stand today. I mean we can - 24 - I think we can debate forever on that issue, but the 25 reality is that 80 percent of the land in this country
891 still belongs to the First Nation people. 2 I will give you 20 percent, just because 3 there's 20 percent of it I don't want, particularly, 4 like, Toronto. 5 Q: Thank you. In the context of the 6 views you've just expressed, would it be fair to say that 7 when the treaty in this area says it guarantees the 8 Stoney Point original reserve to First Nations people in 9 perpetuity, it would be a step forward to implement and 10 recognize that and, in the case of the Ipperwash 11 parklands, for the province to formally return those 12 lands to Native people, would that be a step forward? 13 A: Absolutely. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: It's long overdue. 16 Q: And in your view would that improve 17 the relations between First Nations people and -- and 18 non-native people? 19 A: It would certainly make a big step 20 towards it. Because I think that when you look at the 21 situation, I mean, the Province can make all kinds of 22 arguments around how they acquired that land, whether it 23 was legal or not, the fact of the matter is they have -- 24 they have violated those agreements. 25 You know, if that -- if that original
901 treaty says that the lands -- the people were supposed to 2 be unmolested and perpetuity, in terms of that 3 agreement, they have violated that. They violated in 4 1942 when they stole the land back from -- from the 5 people. So when they did -- when they did that, that 6 means that treaty is null and void. And if the treaty is 7 null and void, that means all -- everything that was 8 agreed in that treaty is returned back to the people. 9 So the Anishnaabe people in this area own 10 all of this territory because they -- because the white 11 governments have violated those treaties. 12 Q: But giving the Park back would be a 13 step in the right direction, is that right? 14 A: Yeah. And a -- and a few more pieces 15 too. We'll -- we'll have to set up a real estate office 16 and get in touch with you. 17 Q: Well, if you allow me to keep 18 Toronto, I'll stay there for a while. Thank you, Mr. 19 Antone. Those are all my questions. Thank you, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Mr. Rosenthal...? 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. Good morning. 25
911 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Antone. 3 A: Hi. 4 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm one 5 of the co-Counsel for a group of Stoney Point people 6 under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group, as you 7 can see -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- from my tag there. And may -- may 10 I first just begin by expressing gratitude for the kind 11 of work that you and your colleague Bruce Elijah have 12 done in so many situations. Obviously, it's wonderful, 13 wonderful work. 14 A: Thank you. 15 Q: You -- you expressed humility but for 16 someone else looking at the situation, it's obviously 17 very important work. 18 Now, I begin with some information, in 19 respect to the questions you were just asked by Mr. 20 Klippenstein, about the 1928 surrender of part of the 21 Stoney Point reserve, so-called surrender. And you -- 22 you may not be familiar with details of that but just to 23 indicate something related to the questions that were 24 asked. 25 We had evidence from Joan Holmes, who was
921 an expert witness towards the beginning of this Inquiry, 2 and she testified, for example, on August 19th, 2004, 3 with respect to that so-called surrender, that the -- the 4 people who bought the land and then sold it to become the 5 Park and so on the cottages, she was asked whether they 6 made a tremendous profit. And she said: 7 "Yes, they did." 8 And then she was asked: 9 "This was an incredible ripoff in any 10 sense, right?" 11 And she answered: 12 "Well, you know, in a Court of law I 13 don't colloquial terms like ripoff but 14 I would say that the person who bought 15 that land and then sold it made a 16 considerable profit, yes." 17 And then she was asked: 18 "And the Indian agent, instead of 19 protecting the people from unscrupulous 20 dealers, as -- as was his 21 responsibility, aided and abetted that 22 sale, is that correct?" 23 And she answered: 24 "The Indian agent encouraged the 25 original surrender of the land."
931 And that was at pages 101-01 in that 2 transcript. Does that -- that confirm in your mind to 3 some extent, sir, that this, like many of the other 4 instances you're familiar with, was not a reasonable 5 surrender in any sense of the word? 6 A: Oh, absolutely. 7 Q: Now, you told us with respect to the 8 1942 appropriation of the Stoney Point reserve by the 9 Federal Government that that was appalling, was the word 10 you used this morning. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And you also referred to the sheer 13 atrocity of the whole situation. Now am I correct in 14 concluding that it's your view that the seizure of the 15 Stoney Point reserve was one of the most appalling of all 16 the many appalling actions by the Federal Government 17 against First Nations people in the twentieth century? 18 A: Absolutely, yeah. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And then you told us that when you 23 heard in 1993 that some of the Stoney Point people had 24 begun to reclaim part of their land, you -- you thought, 25 way to go?
941 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Now am I correct in gathering that 3 you felt that like because you felt that after fifty (50) 4 years it was time for them to take some direct action 5 rather that just continuing to hope that the government 6 would live up to its treaty obligations? 7 A: Yeah, yes. 8 Q: And to your experience, is direct 9 action by First Nations people often very crucial in 10 furthering the justice -- their just causes such -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- as land re -- reclamation? 13 A: Yeah, when you look at the overall 14 situation of -- of First Nations people in this Country 15 and you look at our history and what has happened to us 16 by -- by government policy and by -- by real government 17 intent, you know, even the return of Stoney Point to the 18 people, the return of the Park is only a minute measure 19 of justice for indigenous people, you know. 20 And there are a lot of issues right across 21 the country where you're going to -- where there's -- 22 there's caseloads. There should be a Public Inquiry 23 going on about the relationship between indigenous people 24 and -- and the Federal Government. 25 It should be going on all the time,
951 because there are so many stories out there that are very 2 similar to the Stoney Point situation where people were 3 tricked into surrendering their land, if you want to call 4 it that, because it was never the intent. 5 Because in our -- particularly the 6 Anishnaabe people, you know, one (1) of their highest 7 ideals and values and principles that they practice is 8 kindness. So when the settlers came among them, I mean 9 they were very kind to them. They gave them everything 10 they wanted. They taught them how to live on this land 11 and -- and all of that. 12 And yet what they have done is they -- 13 they treat them in this way, you know, by taking and 14 taking and taking from them until they're -- they're left 15 in these small reservations that are scattered throughout 16 this country. 17 And -- and they continue to do that. You 18 know, and not only that, I mean, then they -- on top of 19 that during this period of time, they outlaw our 20 traditional teachings. 21 They create law that says we can't 22 practice this, this, this, and this. You know, right 23 across the country, where there was the Potlatch, the sun 24 dance or even our -- certain parts of our midwinter 25 ceremonies. They were outlawed at one (1) time, our
961 cultural practices. 2 And -- and -- and that should be -- that's 3 all part of this process, all part of what has happened 4 to us fuels the energy that you see today in -- in our 5 communities. You know, there is an energy looking for 6 justice. 7 There's an energy that's looking for a 8 sense of equality and a place that we can take in our own 9 country. You know, and yet today we are continued to be 10 marginalised by the system and we are continued to be 11 treated as second class citizens in our -- in our own -- 12 on our own land, you know. 13 And I think that that part is the 14 unfairness that exists. So even a small return, a small 15 act in this respect is only the beginning of what needs 16 to be done in order to find real justice for our people. 17 Q: And I gather it would be your view 18 that some of that energy was -- on behalf of First 19 Nations people was evidenced by the people reclaiming 20 their land themselves? 21 A: Absolutely, yeah. 22 Q: In 1993, and then extending it to the 23 built-up area in 1995 -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- and extending it to the Park later
971 that summer? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Now you indicated that the situation 4 with respect to Stoney Point reserve is part of a much 5 larger problem for First Nations people, but this Inquiry 6 is not an inquiry about all the -- the entire situation 7 with respect to First Nations people -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- would you agree that it would be a 10 very important step if this Inquiry somehow strongly made 11 recommendations that the entire Stoney Point reserve be 12 returned to First Nations people? 13 A: The entire -- whatever was there at 14 in 1925? 15 Q: Or 1827, perhaps -- 16 A: Or 1827 -- 17 Q: Prior to the treaty? 18 A: Do you want to negotiate a date right 19 now or what? 20 Q: One (1) of the many problems that 21 resulted from the 1942 seizure especially, and we've had 22 a lot of evidence about, is internal problems within the 23 First Nations people in the area because of Stoney Point 24 people being forcibly relocated to Kettle Point, creating 25 resentments on both sides, which are still alive to this
981 day to some extent, as I believe -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- you were well aware when you were 4 here in 1995. 5 Now, I'd like to ask you a hypothetical 6 question related to that. 7 Suppose that the Federal Government of 8 Canada cleaned up the reserve -- the former Army Camp 9 quickly and promptly and returned that. And suppose that 10 they gave very adequate compensation -- financial 11 compensation in addition to that for all the harm that 12 they caused by disrupting the community for fifty (50) 13 years -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- sixty (60) years, and suppose that 16 the Provincial Government returned Ipperwash Park and 17 also the other parts that had been sold, allegedly, in 18 1928 by re-buying from individual cottages, returned 19 that, in other words, restored the Stoney Point reserve 20 entirely. 21 Would you think then that someone like you 22 and Bruce Elijah could, in that context, help to heal the 23 wounds between Kettle and Stoney Point people so that 24 they continue and manage their lands in the future and 25 live harmoniously in future?
991 A: Could we do it? Well, first I mean, 2 they would have to ask us -- invite us in to do that. I 3 would say that there -- I always have the -- the -- I 4 guess the positive outlook that anything to do with our 5 relatives can be -- can be repaired. 6 You know, it's true there's -- there is an 7 internalized factionalism have occurred in the area and 8 that has injured brother and sister, you know, father and 9 son. But I believe that -- that over a period of time 10 and with -- with real intent it can be -- it can be 11 repaired. 12 Q: And would you agree that if the 13 entire former Stoney Point reserve was returned to First 14 Nations people, and if they were given sufficient 15 financial compensation to help to deal with some of the 16 issues, that would make it easier to effect such a 17 reconciliation? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 19 already asked the question and I think he's -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That was my point, 21 Commissioner. This is the same question. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 23 you've already asked the question and received an answer. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. In his answer 25 he indicated that he would try -- he'd be happy to try
1001 such reconciliation if asked, and so I need to 2 specifically address the surrounding aspect and that's 3 what I was trying to clarify, sir. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In fairness, sir, 5 Mr. Antone indicated that he would wait to see if he and 6 Mr. Elijah were asked -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And I certainly 9 mean no disrespect to him to suggest that we're very much 10 further ahead of the facts on this one, and very much 11 further ahead of the -- the chronology of the time that 12 this Inquiry is looking at. 13 I Certainly wouldn't want to see Mr. 14 Antone put on the spot of -- of promising or holding out 15 the promise of a cure for a situation that doesn't, in 16 fact, exist at this moment. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was not 18 suggesting that, Mr. Commissioner. Perhaps I could 19 rephrase my last question if I may. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Would you agree that just abstractly, 23 as somebody who knows about such negotiations and 24 mediations as you do, sir, that if the surrounding 25 conditions were improved for the people -- for the First
1011 Nations people in this area, namely the full return of 2 the land and very sufficient compensation, that would 3 make it easier for reconciliation to take place than if 4 the conditions persist as they are now? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: The -- the reason why I'm thinking 9 about that is because -- is reconciliation isn't -- isn't 10 about money and the -- and property. It's about the 11 spirituality of a -- of a nation of people in -- in -- in 12 respects of what you're talking about. 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: And I think that whether -- whether 15 that would make it easier or more difficult I don't know. 16 I don't know. I can't really give you an 17 answer around that because usually from my experience 18 that large chunks of money usually cause more problems 19 than -- than anything else and if you base reconciliation 20 on -- on -- on -- on items like that, then you're only 21 risking the -- the intent of reconciliation, you know. 22 And, so, I think that -- I think those are 23 -- those are separate issues. And -- and it's really I 24 think that the people of -- of Kettle and Stony Point, I 25 think they have the integrity and the -- and the overall
1021 ability to recognize when it is or when it will be the 2 right time for them to come together in a -- in a -- in 3 an fair and just process to find the resolution that they 4 want. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Now, on 6 some more specific details arising from your involvement, 7 we understand and you've spoken briefly about this 8 morning that there had been a meeting planned for August 9 26th, 1995, to further along the process of the Military 10 leaving the premises and so on, and that meeting never 11 took place? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Now, can you assist us as to why that 14 meeting didn't take place? 15 A: Well, I -- I think because the 16 Military was already gone, were they not, by then? 17 Q: Yes, but -- but -- but there wasn't 18 full cleanup and so on and there isn't to this day. I 19 mean there were still many other issues. 20 A: Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of 21 other issues. I -- I can't really say why that meeting 22 didn't take place. 23 Q: I see. Okay. 24 A: I think that, well, I'm only telling 25 what I -- what I can remember of that. There was -- just
1031 -- it relates back to the issue that you were talking 2 just previous. 3 There was a lot of tension in the area, 4 you know, and a part of -- part of that tension was the 5 fact that, now that you're reminding of this, is the fact 6 that the people of Stoney Point were not being truly 7 acknowledged by the Federal Government or by Stoney or by 8 Kettle Point for their tenacity to -- to acquire -- to 9 get that land back, you know, and -- and to be sitting 10 out there in a -- in a -- out in the range there and 11 occupying it. 12 And finally -- and I think that -- that 13 what I remember in the area, the -- the Federal 14 Government certainly wasn't going to acknowledge them, 15 you know? 16 I mean, it's sort of like, I mean, the 17 Federal Government never acknowledges the protestor 18 except to deny that they exist and to deny that there's a 19 problem. And -- and I think that when you look at the 20 overall situation and the amount of the dynamics that was 21 going on at the time, even though the people of Stoney 22 Point wanted the area cleaned up and they wanted this and 23 that, Kettle Point wanted it, but they, really during 24 that period of time, there wasn't a lot of talking 25 between people, you know.
1041 And -- and when the -- I was -- I was 2 involved in a situation at that point was only because 3 under the invitation of Department of Defence. 4 And so once they left, I figured, well, my 5 job's done here, you know. And if they were going to 6 proceed with that they could have called me. And -- and 7 I believe there might have been one (1) call after that 8 because I think the Captain was living in Hamilton at the 9 time and -- and there was one talk about -- yeah, it was 10 about the water -- the water treatment plant and the 11 infrastructure there and how that was going to be 12 maintained. 13 I remember having one (1) discussion about 14 that but other than that, that was about it. 15 Q: I see. Thank you. I should like to 16 ask you about a particular incident that Mr. Chico Ralf 17 testified to us about a few days ago. And he described 18 an incident that he was involved in on September 16, 19 1995. 20 So, that was a little bit more than a week 21 after the killing of Dudley George. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Where he indicated that you and he 24 were in a vehicle together, driving on a highway, and you 25 were stopped by police officers.
1051 Do you recall that incident, sir? 2 A: Yeah, I do. 3 Q: And he told us that there were a 4 number of officers with guns drawn, for example. Is that 5 your recollection, sir? 6 A: Absolutely, yeah. 7 Q: Can you tell us about how many 8 officers had guns drawn at that point? 9 A: There was -- I can't remember. I 10 think there was about six (6) or eight (8) -- between 11 around six (6) cruiser. There was probably about eight 12 (8) to ten (10) officers when we finally -- when they 13 finally pulled us over. 14 And there was -- there was several weapons 15 pulled; most of them were -- were not -- they weren't -- 16 they weren't handguns but they were -- they were assault 17 rifles. 18 Q: Long -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- rifles of one kind or another? 21 A: Yes. And -- and they were pointed at 22 me, they were pointed at the -- the lady in -- in the car 23 behind us and -- 24 Q: Yes. And -- 25 A: -- Dennis Nicholas as well. Because
1061 the people that were behind us, that were travelling with 2 us, we were caravanning up because they didn't know how 3 to get to Stoney Point, and they were bringing up some 4 food and -- and -- food and clothing that they had 5 donated from their community, and -- and so they were 6 bringing that to the site. So they -- they were 7 following us -- following behind us. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And there was Dennis and his wife 10 Kathy and -- and their baby. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And so when they pulled us over -- 13 well, when they pulled us over, I remember getting out of 14 the -- out of the truck. Yeah, they told me to -- I 15 don't know, I think they might have told me to stay in 16 the truck, but I got out of the truck and -- because I 17 didn't like what was going on. Like, I was -- and plus I 18 wanted to talk to somebody who -- whoever was in charge 19 of this, what was going on. 20 Because I was travelling to a meeting with 21 their -- well, I was telling them I was travelling to a 22 meeting, I'm going to a meeting with your boss, you know, 23 because there was a meeting being held at Kettle Point at 24 the time that I was coming to, and it was all part of 25 negotiating that document.
1071 Q: Yes. 2 A: And -- and they says, Well we're not 3 -- I mean, they basically refused to talk to me and 4 continued to hold a gun on me. 5 And then at the same time they -- they 6 pulled Dennis out of the car and they handcuffed him 7 right away and threw him in the back of a cruiser. And - 8 - and made his wife get out of the car and separated her 9 from her baby; she had a baby in the back -- in the back 10 seat. 11 And that -- and I was just livid about all 12 -- this whole thing, you know. I was cussing at them and 13 telling them, you know, what the hell are they doing, you 14 know, and all that kind of stuff, and -- and that it was 15 -- it wasn't right. 16 And they said, Well -- and then, finally, 17 one of the officers says that, We had a report that there 18 was a vehicle coming in from Quebec and that it was 19 carrying arms. That's what their intelligence had told 20 them. 21 And that this -- the vehicle behind us did 22 have Quebec plates on it and they -- and they were saying 23 that it had -- had arms in it. 24 And I says, Well, so they -- they pulled 25 everything out of the car and they -- and out of their
1081 car. They searched everything and then they eventually 2 let us go. 3 Q: Mr. Ralph testified that it was his 4 view, although he didn't remember many details ten (10) 5 years later, but it was his view at the time and he 6 remembered this very strongly, that the way the officers 7 removed items from the vehicle behind you was very 8 disrespectful to some sacred objects. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Did you -- do you have any 11 recollection of any -- 12 A: Yeah, because they -- 13 Q: -- of that -- 14 A: -- they took everything out. They 15 were just throwing it out onto the ground. And they were 16 told that there was things there that they were bringing 17 up for the camp, like medicines and stuff like that. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And well, in our way, I guess our -- 20 not just prescription medicines, but you know, spiritual 21 medicines. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: And -- and they had no -- they had no 24 -- no regard for anything that we had said to them. 25 Q: And spiritual medicines are regarded
1091 as sacred items? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And must be treated with respect? 4 A: Yeah. And then I know when that -- 5 with that incident, at the moment we were getting pulled 6 over, I made a call immediately out to -- to some of the 7 people that were waiting for me to come to the meeting 8 and I told them, I says, better send somebody down here. 9 I says, I don't know what's going to happen here. 10 So, there was -- I think there was about 11 three (3) or four (4) cars that came -- came down from 12 the camp and from Kettle Point to make sure that -- that 13 they -- at least there was witness there when -- if 14 something did happen at that point. 15 It was pretty -- it was -- it was pretty 16 intense situation and I didn't understand why they would 17 hold a gun on a woman and on a guy who's handcuffed and 18 threw him in the back of the cruiser, why they would do 19 that. 20 Q: Did you understand why they would 21 hold a gun on you? 22 A: Yeah, why -- why me? I says, I'm 23 going to a meeting with your boss. I says, I'm going to 24 report you all. The only thing, I didn't get any badge 25 numbers, but I certainly told when I got to the meeting,
1101 I told them what had happened. 2 And I said -- and I told them, I says, 3 This is -- This is uncalled for, you know, this kind of 4 behaviour. I mean, they could have easily pulled us over 5 if they wanted to and respectfully searched that vehicle 6 if they needed to do that, but they didn't. 7 Q: Thank you. Now, I'm moving to 8 another aspect. You were asked by Mr. Worme earlier this 9 morning, but I'm not sure if he referred you to the exact 10 exhibit number, but we do have an exhibit in these 11 proceedings, P-275 which is -- you don't necessarily need 12 to turn to, but it's a report of Captain Smith and one of 13 the allegations in that report is that you and Mr. Elijah 14 had indicated that the Stoney Point group of people had 15 arms. 16 Now, you've testified that you never 17 indicated that to anyone; is that correct? 18 A: No, I never. 19 Q: And, in fact, you told us that you 20 always maintained that, in these situations, that weapons 21 would only hurt the cause? 22 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 23 Q: And then you indicated, you said, 24 talk of weapons is -- you called it "ego talk" or eagle 25 talk? I didn't quite -- my hearing is bad and I didn't
1111 hear what you -- 2 A: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I said. I 3 said it was -- it's ego talk when -- you know, it's sort 4 of like, I think that, you know, since 1990 there's 5 always men around in these situations that talk about 6 that kind of stuff. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: But I always refer to it -- but I've 9 never seen it but I always say, well, you know, It's just 10 your ego talking, I says, It's not going to get you any 11 place. 12 Q: Right. And in particular, in the 13 Stoney Point situation, you certainly didn't see any 14 weapons? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And Mr. Elijah, Bruce Elijah 17 testified yesterday and he told us that it was his view 18 that if people had gone that route, he would have left. 19 He would have told them that, and would that be your view 20 as well, sir? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Thank you very, very much, sir.
1121 A: Thank you. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Mr. Rosenthal. 6 Mr. Ross...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 11 Commissioner. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 14 Q: Mr. Antone, greetings. My name is 15 Anthony Ross and I represent the people who were on the 16 firing line; the people who occupied the range, the 17 barracks and the Park, the people of Aazhoodena. 18 Now, Mr. Antone, we have received expert 19 evidence from Professor Darlene Johnson and from Joan 20 Holmes, and from my understanding of the evidence your 21 people have put a lot of weight in the concept of the two 22 (2) band wampum; is that a correct statement? 23 A: The two (2) row wampum. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Keswetah, yeah.
1131 Q: Yes. That it is something that is 2 really meaningful to your people? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And, as I understand further, that 5 the concept of the two (2) row wampum is that you had two 6 (2) people who are going to share a large space but each 7 in your own way without any domination; is that a fair 8 statement? 9 A: Not two (2) people, two (2) nations. 10 Q: Two (2) nations -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- that's what I meant. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Two (2) nations, yeah. And with 15 respect to the Anishnaabeg people, that they arrive at 16 decision -- at positions after discussion and consensus? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: So that even those who are not in the 19 majority, they had a position which was seriously taken 20 into consideration before arriving at a conclusion? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: It was not a situation of just a 23 majority vote so you've got some happy people and some 24 unhappy people? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1141 Q: Correct, sir? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Yes. Now, is it fair to say, that 4 from your understanding, it was never the intention of 5 your people to be dominated by what is now known as Crown 6 law and really a Crown-appointed system for the 7 administration of justice? They weren't volunteering to 8 be dominated by the -- the other nation, were they? 9 A: No, they weren't. 10 Q: And what is interesting, Mr. Antone, 11 is that we have seen a lot of treaties in this country, 12 some of them with your people, some of them with other 13 nations, and I just want to draw something, to perhaps 14 get your view on a small matter. 15 Are you acquainted with the -- the Lake of 16 the Woods? 17 A: Lake of the Woods, yeah. 18 Q: Yes. I understand that there is a 19 treaty, The International Joint Commission, which 20 involves Canada and the United States, as far as 21 management of water in the Lake of the Woods is 22 concerned; are you acquainted with that? 23 A: Well, I'm acquainted with some of the 24 discussions that are going on right now over the Great 25 Lakes watershed area between Canada and the US and the
1151 states -- some of the state governments and the province. 2 Q: And those discussions are kept at a 3 fairly high level with no -- Canada is not trying to 4 dominate the United States and the other states in that 5 process, is it? 6 A: Only concerning the missile. 7 Q: I see. So, what I'm suggesting to 8 you, sir, is that if Canada would show the Anishnabek 9 people the same level of respect in dealing with your 10 treaties as they show with the United States with 11 International Joint Commission, et cetera, that a lot of 12 problems would be solved; would you agree with that? 13 A: Yeah. I would agree with that, yeah. 14 Q: Now, what I would ask you, sir, then, 15 is against this background, could you perhaps try to tell 16 us how you envisage the -- the addressing of the 17 outstanding Anishnaabeg treaty claims with Canada 18 recognizing the system that's currently in place? 19 A: How would I -- how would I do it or-- 20 Q: Yes. How do you see us getting out 21 of this little quagmire? 22 A: You want to take a seat and I'll -- 23 it's going to take a couple hours. 24 Q: Well, can you give me only a Reader's 25 Digest version?
1161 A: Okay. In a -- back -- back a few 2 years ago, one of the things that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 4 you answer the question. What quagmire are you referring 5 to? 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh no, no. The -- 7 well, perhaps that's a -- a wrong word. I will rephrase 8 that. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 11 Q: The system that currently exists, as 12 between Canada and the Anishnaabeg people, to deal with 13 land problems, is through the claims process or the Court 14 process. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Has that proven satisfactory to your 17 people? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Is there another process which you 20 can think of which could be more productive -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- without giving a very large 23 history? 24 A: No, I think you need a very large 25 history around this because one (1) -- and I'll keep it
1171 brief. One (1) of the things that needs to be 2 established is an international tribunal to address the 3 issues between the indigenous nations here in Canada and 4 the Canadian Government. 5 We would not be able to find justice in 6 the Canadian Court system because Canada -- because this 7 struggle is between the Government of Canada and the 8 Provincial Governments and the Indian nations. 9 And in order to find real justice there 10 has to be an international tribunal structure so that 11 they can hear us. Whether it's the World Court or 12 whatever. But they has -- there has to be other nations 13 that have to take a look at this situation here if we're 14 going to look for a fair and just process. 15 Q: Now, what brings us -- what has led 16 to this Inquiry, Mr. Antone, can be broken down into 17 really four (4) basic incidents within the last fifteen 18 (15) years. Number 1 was the occupation of the range. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: Secondly, the occupation of the 21 barracks. Third, the occupation of the Park. And 22 fourth, the death of Dudley George. Now, is it fair to 23 say that the problems and the concerns of the Stoney 24 Point people existed long before the occupation of the 25 range in 1993?
1181 A: I -- I don't understand what you're 2 asking. 3 Q: I'm saying to you, sir, that the -- 4 the Stoney Point quest for the return of the lands -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- it originated prior to -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- the occupation in 1993? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And had it been properly addressed at 11 that time there would have been no need to occupy the -- 12 the barracks; would you agree with that? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And the same as far as the Park is 15 concerned? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And -- excuse me -- 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: My apologies, Mr. Antone, I'm not in 22 the best of health right now. And as far as the -- the 23 treaty process was concerned, this was something that -- 24 that is still taken very seriously by your people? 25 A: Yes. And the treaties are still
1191 considered very valuable you know. As you had mentioned, 2 whether it's Keswetah, the two (2) row wampum, or -- 3 mainly the -- the treaties have followed that. But in 4 reality, and that's what needs to be reviewed by an 5 international tribunal, is that these treaties have been 6 totally violated, you know. And not by our people but 7 certainly by Canadian -- by the Canadian public, if you 8 want to call it, or the Canadian Government. 9 Q: Is it fair then to say that it is the 10 management of the process of the treaty that leads the 11 problem rather than the treaties themselves? 12 A: Yeah. I mean, if your -- if your 13 side -- I mean, you -- are you a Canadian or if you 14 represent -- I mean, I know you're representing somebody 15 else today but, I mean, the Canadian public has to 16 realize that their governments are at fault in the 17 administration of these treaties. The Government -- 18 history has shown us that whether it's a Provincial or 19 the Federal Government, they all have violated our 20 treaties. 21 And if you look at North America, the 22 Federal Governments have been in total -- have breached 23 every agreement that have -- they've made with First 24 Nation people. 25 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Antone.
1201 Those are my questions. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. Ross. I think this would be a good place 4 for us to take our -- our lunch break. 5 We'll take -- do we need an hour and 6 fifteen (15) minutes or can we shorten it to an hour so 7 we can ensure that we'll be done by 3:30? 8 You need an hour and fifteen (15) minutes 9 to get to where you're going and come back? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's leave 12 it at an hour and fifteen (15) minutes. We'll break for 13 an hour and fifteen (15) minutes. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 15 adjourned until 1:15. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 1:14 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 25 Good afternoon, Mr. Antone.
1211 A: Good afternoon. 2 Q: My name, sir, is Andrea Tuck-Jackson 3 and I'm going to be asking you some questions on behalf 4 of the OPP. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: If I could ask you, sir, to turn to 7 Tab 1 of the binder in front of you. I wanted to ask you 8 some questions in relation to the cross-cultural 9 awareness training in which you were involved in mid July 10 of 1995. 11 And as you've already told us, sir, it was 12 your understanding that it was the Department of National 13 Defence that took the initiative to pull various 14 individuals together to assist in that awareness or 15 training; is that fair to say? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I -- if I could direct you, sir, 18 to the document at Tab 1, second page in, you'll see, 19 sir, on that page there is a list of those who were in 20 attendance as instructors or facilitators. Do you see 21 that list? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And you'll see, sir, that there are 24 two (2) individuals who are identified as representing or 25 -- or there in some capacity on behalf of the OPP, from
1221 the First Nations policing section of the OPP? 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: You'll see, sir, the names of Paul 4 Trivett and Murray Wood. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And my -- my question, sir, is do you 7 recall that those two (2) gentlemen were in attendance? 8 A: No, I can't recall. 9 Q: You can't specifically recall that 10 they were there? 11 A: Would it assist your recollection, 12 sir, if I suggested to you that Mr. Trivett was an 13 individual who spoke on the issue of spirituality in the 14 context of First Nations culture and indeed spoke about 15 aspects of Ojibway culture? 16 And it may be, in fairness, because this 17 is so long ago that you can't recall one way or the 18 other? 19 A: Yeah, I don't recall. 20 Q: Fair enough. All right. You'd 21 indicated, sir, in your evidence that -- and as I 22 understand it, up to this point where you were drawn into 23 the Ipperwash situation, if I can put it that way, you 24 enjoyed a good relationship with the Department of 25 National Defence?
1231 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you indicated that in -- in the 3 same breath, but that you did not enjoy a good 4 relationship with the OPP. 5 And would it be fair to say, sir, that up 6 to this point leading up to this invitation to come and 7 speak specifically to the Ipperwash incident, you had not 8 had any involvement with the OPP in relation to the 9 Ipperwash situation up to this point? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. No, you hadn't had any? 12 A: Yeah, no, I hadn't. 13 Q: That's what I had understood and I 14 just wanted to clarify that. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: All right. The only other area, sir, 17 that I wanted to -- to address with you was, you spoke, 18 sir, of a meeting, and -- and you quite candidly 19 acknowledged that you could not recall the specific date 20 when it occurred, which involved representatives of the 21 OPP and of the Special Investigations Unit during which 22 you were having discussions to work out the Memorandum of 23 Understanding that we know was signed on September the 24 17th, 1995. 25 Do you recall alluding to that meeting
1241 this morning? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you indicated, sir, that 4 during the course of that meeting that the 5 representatives of the OPP and the SIU indicated that 6 they wanted access to the site where the shooting had 7 taken place? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you'd also indicated to us that 10 the OPP and -- and perhaps the SIU, I wasn't sure, but at 11 least the OPP had expressed a concern that they were not 12 wanted in that area. 13 In other words, they understood that they 14 were not welcome to go into that area? 15 A: Yeah, that would be fair to say. 16 Q: Okay. And did I -- I took it from 17 your evidence this morning and I may have mistaken it to 18 be quite candid, but I took it from you evidence this 19 morning that at the time, you weren't satisfied as to the 20 genuineness of that concern as it had been expressed? 21 A: Of whose concern? 22 Q: By the OPP. 23 A: You mean that they weren't welcome? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: That they -- that was their feeling?
1251 Q: You questioned whether that that -- 2 that they sincerely believed that they were not welcome. 3 In other words, you -- I took from your evidence, sir, 4 that you were suggesting that they were offering that as 5 an excuse to delay going into the site. 6 And maybe I mis -- misheard you or 7 misinterpreted what you had said. 8 A: Well, given the situation, I don't -- 9 if -- I would say that they -- that I could understand 10 that they -- they had the feeling of not being welcome. 11 Q: All right. And that, frankly sir, is 12 what I wanted to take you back to, because we heard 13 evidence yesterday from -- from Mr. Elijah that shortly 14 upon his arrival in the area one (1) of his first roles 15 was to ask the OPP to physically back off and in effect, 16 retreat, to certain checkpoints -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- and that request was made further 19 to discussions he'd had with some of the people at Stoney 20 Point. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: So, you -- did you understand that 23 that request had been made? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. So, you didn't question
1261 the sincerity of the assertion by the OPP that they 2 understood that they were not welcome at the area that 3 had been identified as a crime scene? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: You don't disagree with that? 6 A: I'm trying to understand what you 7 mean. 8 Q: That's all right. I had double 9 negatives in there. Forgive me, it's been a long three 10 (3) weeks we've had up here. 11 What I understand, sir, is that you -- you 12 were not questioning the sincerity of the claim by the 13 OPP that they felt that they weren't being permitted to 14 go into the crime scene? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: You're agreeing with that? 17 A: Yeah, I agree with that. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Antone. Those 19 are all my questions. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Mr. Roland...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1271 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Antone. My name 3 is Ian Roland. I'm going to be asking you some questions 4 on behalf of the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: And I want to first ask you about the 7 cross-cultural awareness training program that we've 8 heard was presented by you and others on July 13 and 14, 9 1995. 10 As I understand it from your evidence, you 11 got a call from Priscilla George -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- that was your first introduction 14 to the program? 15 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 16 Q: And, sorry, I missed who is Priscilla 17 George? 18 A: Pardon? 19 Q: Who was -- who is or was, what was 20 her position at the time? 21 A: I believe she was working for the 22 Ontario Government -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- at the time. She was involved 25 with native literacy programming.
1281 Q: All right. And what did she tell you 2 about your role and what was intended to be conducted at 3 the Ipperwash Camp? 4 A: Well, she said that they were putting 5 together a program to provide, well you know, call it 6 cross-culture or was I -- what I call sensitivity 7 training around the issues of helping the Military 8 understand the -- the nature of Native rights and -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- nature of Native issues. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: And those kinds of things. 13 Q: Okay. And had you been aware at that 14 stage -- sorry, when did she call you in relationship to 15 the program? How -- how much before the program was run? 16 Was it a matter of weeks or days or do you recall? 17 A: No, I can't recall. 18 Q: But, was it relatively shortly before 19 the program was run? 20 A: Yeah, it would be. 21 Q: It wasn't a question of months or 22 anything like that? 23 A: No, no, it was -- it was probably 24 within a month. 25 Q: All right. And be -- we know that
1291 you attended with Bruce Elijah among -- among others. 2 Was there any discussion amongst the presenters before 3 the program was run on -- or started on July 13th? Did 4 you get together beforehand? 5 A: No, I don't think we did. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I can't recall that we did. 8 Q: Did you speak to anybody from -- from 9 the Military, from DND, Captain Smith or others, before 10 the program was run, to get a sense of what was expected 11 of you? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: No, I think I kind of left it in 16 Priscilla's hands. 17 Q: All right. And then we know from Tab 18 1 of your -- it's in your materials there, which is the 19 document marked in these proceedings P-271. It's dated 20 July 14, '95. 21 That the program seemed to take a 22 different direction than simply a cross-cultural 23 awareness training program very early in the piece, 24 because what we see, if you look on -- on the third page 25 of the document, it's 2 of 4 at the top, where it says --
1301 starts: 2 "Confidential. During the process of 3 the CCAT, a plan of action was 4 developed that would enable the 5 military to mediate their way out of 6 this situation." 7 Now -- and we see later on in the document 8 that you were going to and did meet with, I gather, you 9 and Bruce Elijah met with Glenn George the evening of 10 July the 13th, that is the evening of the first day down 11 at the beach. 12 We've heard about that, Bruce Elijah told 13 us about that yesterday -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: So, I put it to you and it appears 16 apparent from this document that before the training 17 program got very far along, certainly before it concluded 18 it's first day of two (2) days, a new direction, an 19 additional direction, additional to the training program 20 was developed to -- to have you and Bruce Elijah assist 21 in trying to mediate the situation, the conflicting 22 situation that was there. 23 Is that fair that that happened early on 24 in the first or during the first day? 25 A: I - I couldn't say whether it was the
1311 first day or the second day. 2 Q: All right, in any event you've read 3 this document, I take it? You've had it in your binder 4 and had a look at it? 5 A: I kind of glanced through it. I 6 haven't -- I haven't had a chance to totally read it. 7 Q: I see. I see. Were you given that 8 binder some time ago or -- 9 A: No, no, I wasn't. 10 Q: No. You weren't? Okay. So, you've 11 not really had an opportunity to review these documents? 12 A: No, not totally. 13 Q: All right. So, well then I'm going 14 to -- it's going to be a little slower than I -- than I 15 thought, then. I was hoping that you were -- had more 16 familiarity with them. 17 Let's then look at the document, if we 18 can, together, and you will see that the -- the -- at the 19 top of the second page that I've taken you to, Captain 20 Smith in authoring this documents says that: 21 "A plan of action was developed that 22 would enable the Military to mediate 23 its way out of this situation." 24 And I take it you understood at the time 25 that there was a situation, and I think you've spoken of
1321 this this morning, at the Camp in which there was 2 developing, increasingly -- an increasing level of 3 conflict between the Military personnel on the one hand 4 and the Stoney Point occupiers on the other? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And but that was -- and that was in 7 the context, I take it, you understood on July 13th, that 8 the Military was planning at some stage in the future, to 9 vacate the camp? 10 A: Well, if I remember correctly, I 11 think at -- and I'm just trying to -- I don't think you 12 can -- you can make it that clear of a situation, you 13 know. 14 I think that during -- during those day of 15 that -- the training, there was a lot of talk about it, 16 but it was primarily to reduce the tension that existed 17 at the time, so that there could be at least a co- 18 existence of the Stoney Point people and the Military in 19 the area. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: Whether or not there was -- I mean we 22 had known that, even by then, that there was announcement 23 that the land was going to be returned -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- but when was that going to happen?
1331 I mean nobody knew and -- and -- and then everyone's 2 guess at that point was that it would probably happen in 3 the next ten (10) years or thereabouts, given the way 4 government works. 5 And -- and so the idea was to develop a 6 process of co-existence there at that point. The fact 7 that the Military left sooner than later was, I think, 8 was a chain of events. 9 Q: I see. And you didn't -- you say 10 then you didn't understand that there was at least, 11 contemplated by the Military at that stage that they were 12 going to -- they were -- they were interested in and 13 going to try to immediately reduce their presence at the 14 Camp? 15 A: I think they were in a process of 16 reducing at that point, themselves. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: I think even prior to that. I mean, 19 they -- some of the details I can't remember, but they 20 were -- they did tell us, like, the year before they had 21 X number of people there, the year before that there was 22 X number, and that over the years and even since the 23 announcement that there was a reduce in the number of 24 personnel there. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
1341 A: And that -- and I -- I think one (1) 2 of the comments that I heard the Military saying was that 3 because of the reduction in numbers that was going on 4 there, they -- they felt that tensions would only 5 increase and that -- and that was their -- that was their 6 concern. 7 Q: And -- and did they express why they 8 felt that, that by reduced numbers, tensions would 9 increase? 10 A: Well, because there was -- at that 11 point there was -- there was friction already going on. 12 Q: And how would the reduced numbers 13 increase the friction? 14 A: Well, because they were -- they were 15 -- they felt they were going to have to reduce the 16 number of patrols that they had and that kind of -- that 17 kind of thing around the perimeter that they were of the 18 main Camp area. 19 Q: Yes. And was that going to reduce -- 20 would reducing the patrols in their view, reduce or 21 increase the friction? 22 A: In their minds, they felt that -- 23 that they were being put in a -- they were being left out 24 in the cold, you might say. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. I'm not sure I quite know
1351 what that means. Maybe you could help us understand what 2 you understood that to mean. 3 A: Well, they were -- yeah, the way -- 4 my understanding was that they felt that they were being 5 abandoned by the -- by the Department of Defence. 6 Q: Okay. And was there a concern that 7 the level of conflict with the occupiers was increasing 8 to an extent, therefore, that they would be at risk 9 themselves? 10 A: Yeah, I think that was one (1) of the 11 things. And I think the other point was that they felt 12 that the transfer of land was a political question, it 13 was not a Military question -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- and that they were -- they were -- 16 they were put in a position by their own -- by their own 17 leadership or by the Department of Defence where they 18 were having to make political decisions that were really 19 Military decisions. Well, I mean they were not in a 20 position to make political decisions, you know, over the 21 transfer of land. 22 I mean, it wasn't up to them whether or 23 not they were going to leave or not, the ones that were 24 stationed there and certainly it wasn't up to them 25 whether or not the Stoney people were going to get the
1361 land back either, but yet there was this announcement and 2 if anything I think that announcement by Government left 3 them hanging. 4 Q: And did you understand that, at that 5 time, that is July of '95, that there was a dispute -- in 6 fact, I think there were some Court actions which gives 7 an indication of the dispute concerning the cleanup, the 8 environmental cleanup of the Camp? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And the dispute appeared to be over 11 who was going to do it and the control of that cleanup 12 process? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And that was a topic of 15 discussion, I gather, at this -- this cross-cultural 16 awareness training program? That was one (1) of the 17 topics discussed? 18 A: Yeah, I believe it was, yeah. 19 Q: And if you look at the bottom of that 20 page, page 2 of the document, it -- after talking about 21 setting up this circle meeting of August 26th that we've 22 heard about, Captain Smith sets out what the purpose of 23 the meeting was in three (3) points: 24 "To establish a plan that will allow 25 for the cleanup to be completed in a
1371 secure manner and a manner that's 2 satisfactory to the Natives, to the -- 3 to M. M. Dillon and the Military. 4 To establish a plan that will allow the 5 Military to meet its obligations of due 6 care and diligence with respect to 7 signing -- signing [which means putting 8 up signs, I gather] and jurisdiction of 9 the area until the environmental 10 cleanup and handover is completed. 11 And thirdly establish a plan that will 12 allow the Kettle and Stony Point Band 13 Police to begin joint patrol law 14 enforcement of the -- of the [I gather 15 that's training area, I guess] prior to 16 and during the clean up. This will 17 allow a more orderly hand over of the 18 terrain once the clean up is completed. 19 This will also allow a very significant 20 reduction of Military Police personnel 21 from the camp." 22 And did you understand those were the -- 23 the three (3) objectives that I gather were discussed for 24 the purposes of proposed meeting of August 26th? 25 A: I think that was only one (1) part of
1381 it. 2 Q: I see. That was -- but that was part 3 of the proposed meeting of August 26th? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. What was the other part 6 of it? 7 A: The other part was the cultural 8 training. 9 Q: I see. Well, I -- yeah, cultural 10 training -- sorry, cultural training at the July 13 and 11 14 -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Sorry, we misunderstood one another. 14 What I -- what I -- what I was asking was, did you -- did 15 you understand as Captain Smith communicates in this memo 16 that those were the three (3) objectives of this yet to 17 be arranged meeting of August 26th? 18 A: Oh, okay. I hear what you're saying. 19 Q: Yes. Did you agree that those -- 20 A: Yeah, there was -- 21 Q: -- were -- 22 A: -- this was discussed, yeah. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: As --
1391 A: Whether or not that was the intent of 2 that meeting in August, I can't recall. 3 Q: You can't recall, okay. And what we 4 -- what we're -- what we've learned from these documents 5 is that you and Bruce Elijah offered yourselves during 6 the two (2) day session in July, July 13 and 14, as 7 mediators to try and advance these objectives -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- of -- of moving towards the 10 military disengaging from Camp Ipperwash -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- by conducting a meeting of all of 13 the parties, hopefully on August 26th? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And was that so? Was that -- you -- 16 I take it that's true? You and Bruce -- 17 A: Yeah, we -- 18 Q: -- put yourself forward as -- as 19 mediators to do that? 20 A: I don't know whether we -- were 21 asked -- 22 Q: As facilitators? 23 A: Yeah, to try and -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- facilitate that process, yeah.
1401 Q: Yes. And I gather that you were to 2 be paid for this service? 3 A: Yeah, that -- we never did get paid 4 for it, either. 5 Q: We heard that from Mr. Elijah. But, 6 that was the understanding that you and Mr. Elijah would 7 actually be paid by DND to provide this facilitative 8 service? 9 A: Yeah, that's what was our 10 understanding when we first -- well, they were supposed 11 to pay for the training, too, and they never did, so... 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: I don't know whatever happened with 14 that. 15 Q: All right. So, as you understood, 16 for the -- for both the training and for the subsequent 17 facil -- facilitative process, you were to be retainer 18 from DND? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. And what this document 21 indicates is that -- that you would try to get the 22 parties or representatives identified, I gather, on page 23 2, to agree to this -- a native circle at the Oneida 24 reserve tentatively scheduled for August 25th -- 26th to 25 run five (5) days?
1411 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Is that right? You'll see that it 3 sets out -- this is on page 2 of 4 -- 4 A: 2 of 4. 5 Q: If you look at the bottom, it's 2 of 6 4, under Item 3-C(a), 7 "A meeting native circle to be held at 8 the Oneida reserve." 9 Are you with me? 10 A: 3-C(a). No, I don't see that. 11 Q: No, sorry, turn back. I think that's 12 the page that you're looking at. If you'll see under 3- 13 C(a), it talks about a need -- a meeting native circle 14 will be held on the Oneida reserve. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yeah, like -- yeah that could have 23 possibly be. 24 Q: And we heard from Mr. Elijah 25 yesterday that that was something that he was arrange --
1421 he was -- and you, but certainly from his evidence were - 2 - were intending to try and arrange or facilitate? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And there would be certain -- and it 5 was identified who would be there, both either described 6 as a representative or as an individual. 7 You'll see in most of the categories of 8 attendees, they are representatives of various interests? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Right. You see that? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. And what -- what we know 13 from this document, and I take it you confirm that, that 14 at that meeting there was no one present for the purpose 15 of the cross-cultural awareness training from the 16 occupiers at Camp Ipperwash? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. And this meeting that you were 19 going to try and put together, this circle for August 26, 20 to run five (5) days -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- would have to include some 23 occupier representatives as well, so that all parties 24 were involved in the process, right? 25 A: Yes.
1431 Q: And so what you had to do is -- I 2 take it it was for you and Mr. Elijah to identify who 3 those representatives should be by contacting the Stoney 4 Point group occupiers in trying to determine from them, 5 or have them identify who the representatives should be-- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- right? And we see in this 8 document that there's representative both of a radical 9 element and a -- and a traditional -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- Stoney Point group. What did you 12 understand was the distinction between those two 13 representatives? 14 A: I have no idea. This is Captain 15 Smith's document. 16 Q: I see. Did you remember a discussion 17 about that at the time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No. All right. I gather you then, 20 we know, did approach Glenn George? 21 A: Pardon? 22 Q: You did approach, you and Bruce 23 Elijah then spoke to Glenn George? 24 A: Yeah, we spoke to him on a couple 25 occasions during that time.
1441 Q: Yes. And did you know Glenn George 2 before July 13th? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: All right. And we heard from Mr. 5 Elijah yesterday and these documents seem to indicate 6 that the two of you met with Glenn George and some others 7 on the evening of July the 13th, that is the evening of 8 the first day of the -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- two day session, at the beach. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you recall that? 13 A: I remember being on the beach, yeah. 14 Q: And do you remember speaking with 15 some Stoney Point -- 16 A: Glenn and -- 17 Q: -- representatives? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And you were with Bruce Elijah? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And I take it he was more familiar 22 with some of these people than you were; is that fair? 23 A: Yeah, I would -- I would say that, 24 yeah. 25 Q: All right. Did he introduce you to
1451 them? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And as a result of that 4 meeting on the beach with the Stony Point 5 representatives, were -- which were told, included Glenn 6 George, was there a general consensus that they would be 7 prepared to participate in this meeting circle scheduled 8 for August 26th? 9 A: I think there was -- I'm trying to 10 recall what was actually said on the beach, and -- and 11 you know, it's me, is I think whether it was the first 12 meeting or the second meeting, I think generally what we 13 were, trying to get them to make a commitment to be 14 involved in the process -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- itself. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: Whether we talked about this meeting 19 in Oneida or not, is -- is another question. I don't -- 20 I can't remember that. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But, we were trying to encourage them 23 to be involved in -- in a process. 24 Q: All right. And were you having 25 success in that?
1461 A: I was -- I though we were -- we were 2 moving, I mean, there was some resistance to it, you 3 know, probably more from the women that we talked to than 4 there -- then from the men. 5 And -- but they were -- but they were 6 having -- they were continuing to have that discussion. 7 I think it -- it was open, and I -- and I -- my -- my 8 sense, if I remember at that time, that it was gonna take 9 a little while -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- to -- to bring people together. 12 Q: All right. And during the -- the 13 training program, over July 13 and 14, did you learn 14 about the Military's then current activity in removing 15 assets from the Camp? 16 A: You mean during the -- 17 Q: During that -- during that training 18 session, did you learn from the Military representatives 19 that they were in the course of removing assets from the 20 Camp? 21 A: No, I don't remember that until the 22 day that they were removing them. 23 Q: That is still July 29th? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. So you -- you weren't
1471 aware that they'd -- they already had in process a plan 2 to remove many or most of the recoverable assets by 3 August the 2nd, and that they were collecting that -- 4 collecting them for that purpose? 5 A: No, I didn't. I didn't know. 6 Q: You weren't aware of that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: All right. Now, as a result of the - 13 - of your new assignment as mediator/facilitator on 14 behalf of DND, I gather that after the training session 15 concluded on July 14th you continued to fill that role 16 for some period of time thereafter by meeting with the 17 various interest groups to try to arrange, among other 18 things, arrange this meeting of August 26th? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And to get the interest groups to buy 21 into it? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. And apart from the 24 meeting on July 13th you say you had several other 25 meetings with the Stoney Point group for this purpose?
1481 A: Yeah. I can remember coming up a 2 couple of times to -- to meet with them. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And in most cases that meeting 5 usually ended up happening up at the beach area. 6 Q: Okay. And throughout, sir, that 7 effort of yours through July -- following July 14th, did 8 -- did the Stoney Point group representatives you met 9 with agree to participate in the August 26th meeting? 10 A: I -- my sense was that they were 11 starting to agree to it. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And -- and I felt that -- that there 14 was -- was going to be a meeting at some point between 15 all the parties. 16 Q: And at these meetings that you had 17 with them were you accompanied by Bruce Elijah? 18 A: Yeah, in most cases I was. I -- I 19 don't remember being up there without him, so... 20 Q: All right. And, as well, did you 21 meet with Chief Tom Bressette? 22 A: No. We never did meet with Tom. 23 Q: And did you meet with any 24 representatives from the Kettle Point -- Stony -- Stony/ 25 Kettle Point Band?
1491 A: I think we might have meet with 2 Bonnie. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: We had talked to Bonnie I think on 5 maybe one (1) occasion. But, other than that I can't 6 remember meeting with any -- anyone officially with the 7 Band Council. 8 Q: All right. If you -- if you go back 9 to Tab 1 you'll see that, on page 2 of 4, that it lists 10 the representatives that are to be at this August 26th 11 meeting, which include a representative of the Kettle and 12 Stony Point Band Council? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: You see, that's under 3. And the 15 four (4) Elders, male and female, from the Kettle and 16 Stony Point Band. 17 Did you understand when you were carrying 18 out this facilitation exercise that -- that what was 19 wanted or anticipated was to have those representatives 20 at the August 26 meeting? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: You did understand that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And what efforts did you and Bruce 25 Elijah make to have -- to identify those representatives
1501 for the August 26 meeting? 2 A: Well, after the -- well, after the 3 move that was made on -- on the Camp itself, there was no 4 further meetings. 5 Q: I see. But, up until August -- that 6 was July 29th; that's -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- two (2) weeks after the training 9 session. In that two (2) weeks period did you -- do you 10 recall, that is between July 14th and July 29th -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- in that two (2) week or fifteen 13 (15) day period, do you recall what efforts you -- you or 14 Bruce Elijah made to identify those representatives for 15 the -- and to get them to buy into having this meeting? 16 A: No, I can't recall. 17 Q: You can't recall what you did? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Now, let me, if I could, take 20 you to Tab 6, and this is... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Sorry. Tab 4. Sorry. Sorry. I'm 25 sorry. Sorry, Mr. -- no, it is Tab 6, yeah. Tab 6, the
1511 Globe and Mail article. Yeah. Is that a Globe and Mail 2 article? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Oh, sorry. I thought -- I thought it 5 was in your material. I'm sorry. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 10 showing him an article from the Globe and Mail? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, this was an 12 article -- I thought it was marked as an exhibit 13 yesterday. Ms. Vella referred Mr. Elijah to it 14 yesterday, but I -- I gather it wasn't marked as an 15 exhibit. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we have 17 it in one (1) of these books? Is it in one (1) of these 18 books? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: It isn't in there, 20 Commissioner. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think it was in -- it 22 was in, I think, Mr. Elijah's book. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it Bruce 24 Elijah's book? Because I still have that here. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: In the meantime, Mr.
1521 Antone, you can read the article. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can read 3 it, right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: You've now had a chance to read the 9 article, Mr. Antone? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yes. You'll see that that was 12 authored by Peter Moon and we know from Tab 1 that he was 13 actually in attendance at the cross-cultural training 14 workshop. 15 Do you -- do you remember him at the 16 workshop? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I remember the name, but I -- 20 Q: All right. And he describes, he -- 21 as journalists do, sort of situates us in time of what's 22 gone -- what's been going on -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: in the -- with respect to the 25 Ipperwash Army Camp conflict. And is that a -- sort of a
1531 fair description of what was understood, what you heard 2 was the conflict and the -- sort of nature of the 3 conflict at the time? 4 A: I don't know. I think, as you're 5 saying, like any journalist I think there's -- there's a 6 lot of exaggeration in this story. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: And I think most journalists have a - 9 - have a tendency to sensationalise events and 10 particularly when it's involved on native protesters -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- and I think this is a -- to me 13 this is another example of it. 14 Q: All right. So what in this article 15 do you say is particularly inaccurate by virtue of 16 exaggeration? What's overly exaggerated? 17 A: I -- I think when you -- when you 18 read this article and you look at the overall intent of 19 it, you know, is it really to give accurate information 20 about what was going on at the workshop or is it -- is it 21 an attempt to criminalize the protest that's going on? 22 And one of the things that -- when I look 23 at articles like this and I look at how they're 24 translated, and how they're interpreting what particular 25 events that are going on there, that's one of the things
1541 that I notice about them. 2 In my years of experience in dealing with 3 these issues, I find that the best way to sell a 4 newspaper is -- is exaggerate the truth and 5 sensationalise it. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And I think that this is -- this is 8 just another attempt to do that. 9 Q: Okay. Well, having said that, can 10 you point to us what you say is the -- 11 A: The overall article. 12 Q: So you say there's nothing sort of 13 accurate in the article at all? 14 A: Whether it's ac -- I -- there 15 probably is some facts that are accurate in here. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: But -- but when you look at the 18 overall intent of it and the overall description of the 19 article, I think that's one of the things that -- that 20 concerns me. And I think that, you know, I think there's 21 great liberty taken with -- with the material that came 22 out of that workshop. 23 Did he have a right to publish some of 24 this stuff coming out of there? Was there a release of 25 information? I mean, there's a note in one of the
1551 documents that says that the training materials were 2 confidential or were copyrighted. 3 But yet, when you look -- when I remember 4 this kind of article coming out of there, this -- those 5 discussions and that situation there was the publishing 6 of this kind of report out of that kind of meeting, 7 doesn't do justice to the process. 8 You know, and that's what concerns -- 9 concerns me, is that I think that I remember at that time 10 that you can take this article and you can say -- some 11 people will argue with you from Stoney Point saying that 12 some of the facts they're saying about them was not true. 13 None of their people were sitting in there 14 and I don't believe that they went and asked them any of 15 the facts around what they were saying has happened, that 16 there was gunshots fired and all this kind of stuff. 17 I think a lot of that stuff, people like 18 to hear that because they like to sensationalise native 19 protesting. 20 Q: I see, so I take it what you're -- 21 one of the things you're taking exception to, I gather, 22 is the description of the level of violence that this 23 article portrays -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- at Camp Ipperwash --
1561 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- at the time? Is -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- that -- is that what you're 5 concerned about? 6 A: Yeah, what is -- what is the intent 7 of that? 8 Q: All right, but are you concerned 9 about the intent or are you concerned about the -- 10 A: I'm concerned -- 11 Q: -- factual authenticity -- 12 A: -- about the intent of that -- 13 Q: I see. 14 A: -- because this comes up during 15 serious discussions between two (2) parties that are 16 attempting to find a resolution to a conflict. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: And Mr. Moon was out of his right to 19 publish something like this. 20 Q: So you're not challenging the factual 21 accuracy of it so much as saying it -- whether the facts 22 are accurate or not, they shouldn't have been published 23 because it doesn't assist in resolving the conflict? 24 A: If you want to repeat what I said, 25 yeah, that's fine.
1571 Q: Is that it? Do I have it right? We 2 lawyers tend to repeat things so -- in our own words to 3 try to understand clearly and we got -- 4 A: That's what -- 5 Q: -- have I got it -- 6 A: -- I'm saying. 7 Q: -- close. Okay, thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: All right. Excuse me. Just bear 12 with me for a moment. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: If you could turn to Tab 3, you'll 17 see this is another document authored by Captain Smith, 18 and it's dated July 26, '95. 19 And before we get into the document in 20 detail, Mr. Antone, we heard from Bruce Elijah that -- 21 yesterday that most of the contact between he and you 22 working together and Captain Smith was carried out by 23 you; that is, it was you as opposed to Bruce Elijah 24 that -- 25 A: Yeah. I did most of the --
1581 Q: -- that communicated back to Captain 2 Smith; is that fair? 3 A: Yeah. Most of it was by phone. 4 Q: Yeah. But it was you as opposed to 5 Bruce having those conversations -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- with Captain Smith? 8 A: I would -- I would think so, yeah. 9 Q: All right. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 11 perhaps you give him an opportunity to read the document 12 if you're going to -- 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- ask him a 15 lot of questions about it. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's Exhibit P-272, and 17 I think the witness is -- is just having an opportunity 18 to read it, so. 19 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'd 21 give him a minute to read it. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SYDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
1591 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: You had a chance to read it -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: -- Mr. Antone? Okay. Now, you'll 5 see what it -- what it speaks of, first of all, is there 6 appears to be a -- a noticeably more aggressive activity 7 from the occupiers than had been the case earlier. 8 And I think you told us this morning that 9 as a result of your and Bruce Elijah's efforts early on, 10 after July 14th, that there was fewer incidence of 11 reported conflict between the Military and the occupiers, 12 and that's confirmed by Captain Smith in an earlier 13 memo -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- he says the same. We're now to 16 three (3) days before or four (4) days before what turned 17 out to be the occupation of the barracks -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- and he -- he notes that there's 20 been a higher or more noticeable level of aggressive 21 activity. 22 Did you -- and -- and he notes that in 23 the past twenty-four (24) hours, that you and Bruce 24 Elijah had made contact with Glenn George at least three 25 (3) times and that you -- someone, I take it you, had
1601 reported that the meetings were positive. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Does that help you refresh your 4 memory about -- 5 A: Yeah. I mean -- 6 Q: -- that period of time? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: That is, on the one hand it appears 9 you're making some headway with Glenn George and the 10 other occupiers -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- in getting them to buy into this 13 facilitation process. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: On the other hand there seems to be, 16 from other elements of the occupiers, some more level of 17 -- an increased level of aggression or aggressive 18 activity. 19 A: Or the same level. 20 Q: Or the same level. 21 A: It doesn't say whether there's an 22 increase or decrease. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Does it? 25 Q: Well, it says -- it says:
1611 "Has become noticeably more 2 aggressive." 3 A: And what does that -- to what? 4 Q: I -- 5 A: I mean, what does sounding air horns 6 compared to? They -- are they more noisy, is that the 7 point, than they were noisy before or -- 8 Q: I mean what -- 9 A: -- what -- what is the definition of 10 more aggressive? 11 Q: Anyway, what we see here is Captain 12 Smith is concerned that this is -- is aggressive in the 13 sense of trying to incite some reaction by the police or 14 others. 15 A: Yeah, and that's his interpretation. 16 Q: Yeah, okay. Did you have some sense 17 of that at all, yourself? 18 A: No, I didn't. 19 Q: All right. And then the next thing 20 he notes at the bottom of that page on July 26th, is: 21 "All Parties are concerned about the 22 probable Stoney Point Group reaction 23 when they are officially informed that 24 the meeting of August 26th is now 25 cancelled."
1621 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: So, even -- it appears even before 3 the occupation on the 29th of July, the August 26th 4 meeting is off. Do you recall -- does this help you? 5 A: Why? 6 Q: Why? If you turn over the page it'll 7 -- it says that you and Bruce Elijah will meet with Tom 8 Bressette on the 25th or 26th -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- with a view to convincing him to 11 either support or sponsor -- I thought that was support 12 the meeting scheduled for August 26th? That's -- is that 13 -- does that refresh your memory at all about what was 14 going on at that stage? 15 A: No, it -- not really. I know that 16 there was -- there was attempts to do that, but I can't 17 recall how far we got with it. I know that the best, as 18 I had mentioned, that we -- we did talk to -- to Bonnie 19 and whether or not a meeting was being planned. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: Because I also know that Tom, being - 22 - being as involved as he is with a lot of other issues, 23 both regionally and nationally, with AFN and all that, I 24 know that there was also some meetings that were going 25 on, that many of the leadership at that time were out --
1631 were out of the area -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- as well. So it could be a lot of 4 different reasons why things were -- were moving slower 5 than what this document says they could have been, I 6 guess. 7 Q: All right. What you -- what you do 8 know is that there was -- there was a schism or 9 difference between the Stoney Point Group on the one (1) 10 hand and the Kettle Point Band on the other, over the 11 occupation and over the -- 12 A: Oh, yeah. 13 Q: -- the tactics of carrying on that 14 occupation to acquire back the land? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And, indeed, there was -- the main 17 difference between the two (2) groups was the -- their 18 different -- their different tactics. They both had the 19 same purpose, that is to get -- get the land back, but 20 they had quite different views about the -- the means or 21 tactics to go about to achieve that. 22 A: Yeah, I would say that. 23 Q: Is that fair? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And -- and it's fair that we -- we
1641 understand from the Kettle Point point of view, that it 2 wanted to continue to work with the Government and the 3 Military in a less aggressive fashion to try and 4 negotiate a return as opposed to a more aggressive 5 fashion from the Stoney Pointers to assert themselves by 6 occupying the -- the land? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. And I gather from your 9 evidence what you tell us is you -- you had no inkling or 10 forewarning at all about the -- about the July 29th 11 takeover? You didn't know that was going to occur on 12 July 29th? 13 A: No. 14 Q: But what you did know, I gather, is 15 that there was -- there was very likely going to be some 16 -- some effort to -- or possibly some effort to simply 17 take over the barracks by the Occupiers at some stage in 18 or around that period? 19 You were aware of that, weren't you? 20 A: No. I just -- it's the same 21 question. 22 Q: Because I heard, well, apart from the 23 date. What we heard from -- 24 A: But it's still the same question, 25 apart from the date.
1651 Q: What we heard from -- well, let me 2 ask you this. We heard from Mr. Elijah yesterday that 3 he, during this period of time, before July 29th, had a 4 discussion with some of the Occupiers. He described them 5 as the -- the -- yeah, I think he described them -- I've 6 got to get it right as, "the grandmas", the elder women-- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- amongst the Occupiers about the 9 tactic of taking over the barracks -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- that is, should -- should the men 12 go in and take over the barracks or not, and his advice 13 to them -- tactical advice to them, before July 29th, 14 when you and he were there, was to not send the men in to 15 take over the barracks, but send the women and children 16 to take over the barracks. Do you recall any of that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And, would you have been -- Mr. 19 Elijah volunteered this to us yesterday -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- I take it you weren't always in 22 his presence in these conversations? 23 A: No, I wasn't. 24 Q: And he didn't tell you about this 25 conversation, I gather?
1661 A: I don't know. I -- I don't remember 2 him telling me. 3 Q: His tactical advice was, the Military 4 will have a hard time resisting if it's women and 5 children -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- while they'll find it easier to 8 resist if it's men. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Is -- would that be your take on such 11 a situation as well? Would you agree? 12 A: Well, you're asking me to think about 13 it. If I was going to do this over again, and I was 14 involved with it and I was organizing it, I think that 15 there's a -- in hindsight, there's probably a lot of 16 different things that I would do differently. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: And -- and I think that -- I think 19 you're projecting what -- what my assumptions, or what I 20 would do in this kind of a situation. I am -- I didn't 21 go in there and I am not involved, directly involved in 22 the occupation of this territory. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: I entered this situation as a 25 mediator --
1671 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- that was my primary role, and -- 3 and that's what I did. Your -- what other information 4 you have, I don't -- I don't know at this point. 5 Q: All right. We also heard from Bruce 6 Elijah yesterday, that he was asked about, or had some 7 discussion, again, with the occupiers about taking over 8 the Park at some stage. This is before the occupation of 9 the barracks, and his advice to them was, leave it until 10 the end of the season, because there's fewer people down 11 there at the Park. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Do you -- did you participate in that 14 discussion with any of the occupiers? 15 A: No, I don't remember that discussion. 16 Q: All right. And did -- did Bruce 17 Elijah tell you about his discussion with them, where he 18 advised them that it would make more tactical sense to 19 wait to the end of the Park season, before -- 20 A: I don't remember that dis -- 21 Q: -- they occupied it? 22 A: I don't remember that discussion. 23 Q: You don't remember that? Okay. Now, 24 between July 14th and July 29th, about how many days or 25 occasions did you -- did you attend at Ipperwash or the
1681 Ipperwash area, carrying out your role as a mediator? 2 How often were you there? 3 A: I can't recall right now. It would 4 probably be somewhere around, from the -- including the - 5 - the workshop itself, probably about five (5) or six (6) 6 days. 7 Q: So we know the workshop was two (2) 8 days. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: So maybe another three (3) or four 11 (4) days? 12 A: Yeah, something like that. 13 Q: All right. And were most of the 14 meetings at the beach? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you've told us that -- about 17 Gladys Lunham. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: She's someone that you'd known back 20 from the seventies. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And did you have occasion to see or 23 meet her or speak to her? 24 A: I haven't seen her since that time. 25 Q: You haven't?
1691 A: Yeah. I don't think -- 2 Q: You didn't run into her at any of 3 these occasions you were there? 4 A: No. No, no. 5 Q: And you described her, I think, as an 6 Elder back then -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- in '74ish. 9 A: She would have passed away by -- 10 probably by now. 11 Q: Well, you know, she -- actually she 12 was alive in '95, we know that. 13 A: Was she? 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: Yeah. Well I never did see -- 16 Q: But she would have been -- she would 17 have been quite elderly, is what you're saying? 18 A: Yeah. Right. 19 Q: All right. Okay. Now, you've told 20 us that there was discussions about -- with the 21 occupiers, about weapons and firearms, and you 22 discouraged them from considering using them as part of 23 their -- the tactic of -- of obtaining their objectives, 24 of taking back the Base and the Park, and you called it, 25 there's always discussion about firearms since 1990,
1701 since Oka, as ego discussion. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And what you said is that the weapons 4 scare everybody, they -- they frighten people when you 5 start talking about weapons. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And we -- we know -- you're asked 10 about -- about the occupation of the barracks in -- on 11 July 29th, that you were there, and we know from the -- 12 the memos of Captain Smith that he at least records that 13 you and -- and Bruce Elijah told him that the Stoney 14 Point group were armed. 15 You say you didn't tell him because they 16 weren't armed? 17 A: Yeah, they weren't armed. I didn't 18 tell him that. 19 Q: You didn't tell him that. Is it 20 possible even though they weren't armed that you told him 21 that they might be armed or were armed in order to -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- encourage the Military to be 24 frightened about the circumstance and leave? 25 A: Absolutely not.
1711 Q: It wasn't part of a -- 2 A: I don't play games. 3 Q: I see. 4 A: I don't play with -- games with 5 people's lives. 6 Q: It certainly would be -- would be 7 something that would encourage the Military to leave, 8 wouldn't it, if they thought that the occupiers might be 9 armed? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: You don't know. Did you -- did you 12 tell him that they were also, as the evening progressed, 13 that some of the male occupiers were starting to consume 14 alcohol; he puts that in his notes as well? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you did tell him that? 17 A: Yeah. I said, They're getting angry, 18 they're getting upset about them not leaving. 19 Q: I see. And the -- the point is that 20 they're less -- they're less controllable or more likely 21 to act out if they're consuming alcohol, so the danger is 22 increasing? 23 A: Yeah. And we encourage them not to 24 consume it because when -- when they did we told them to 25 put it away, leave it alone, this is not the situation
1721 for that. 2 Q: Okay. I -- I gather the message you 3 delivered to Captain Smith was that the Military should 4 leave because the situation is getting dangerous and if 5 they don't leave someone might get hurt? 6 A: Yeah. I was -- I think the message 7 is that, yeah, I mean, they -- if they're going to stay 8 there, then it's -- it's going to probably erupt into 9 some form of a physical fight -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- you know, and if that's what they 12 wanted to engage in. Because my sense of it was that the 13 Stoney Point people were not going to leave and -- and 14 given the fact that they've -- the Government has already 15 said they're returning the land, why make -- why make 16 that a big issue. They're in a no-win situation, the 17 Military, at that point. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. Sorry, Mr. Antone, I'm 19 going to jump back in time just to cover up one (1) other 20 document which I should have dealt with before we talked 21 about the occupation. 22 And it's a memo from Captain Smith, in 23 this case dated July 27, '95, and it's, I think, at Tab 4 24 of your documents. 25 And if you turn to the second page...
1731 Maybe we can mark this as an exhibit. It 2 is Document 7000339. And you'll see on the second page 3 that he reports: 4 "Native activity during this report 5 period restricted to observation of the 6 built-up area and the continuing 7 occupation of the Military beach. 8 Native elements have established 9 standing patrols at both ends of the 10 Military beach. These patrols --" 11 A: I'm in the -- which -- which section 12 was it? 13 Q: Sorry. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: It's only a two (2) page document, 18 sir. I'm looking at the second page of the two (2) -- 19 sorry, it's a -- sorry, it's a -- I have three (3) pages. 20 Sorry, you should be looking at the first page, then. I 21 gather you've only got two (2) of the three (3) pages. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it 23 Section 4? 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, yeah. I'm looking 25 at -- no, sorry, I'm looking at the beginning of a
1741 document under the heading, Native Elements. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The first 3 page is a cover page. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, it's a -- it's a 5 fact sheet. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 7 looking at the -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm looking at -- I 9 thought the Witness had the fact sheet and -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- so that's why I took 12 him to the second page. It turns out he doesn't have the 13 fact sheet. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: Yeah. So, under, Native Elements: 17 "Native elements have established 18 standing patrols at both ends of the 19 Military beach. These patrols restrict 20 entry onto the beach to Native persons 21 only. 22 At approximately 10:00 a.m. on July 23 27th, Bob Antone contact this often -- 24 office and advised as follows. 25 He'd been in contact with the Stoney
1751 Point group and they were in the 2 process of picking three (3) persons to 3 attend the meeting. He was aware of 4 Tom Bressette's resistence to the 5 subject meeting but was going to meet 6 with him again to try and convince him 7 to have the meeting." 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Now, does that -- does that refresh 10 your memory about the problem you were having with Tom 11 Bressette? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yeah, I mean it's -- I don't -- I 16 know that there was resistence there -- it's -- and that 17 we were trying to have the meeting, so -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: -- I don't know what more I can say 20 on that. 21 Q: Okay. Sorry, then, going back to the 22 night of the 29th -- sorry, I had to jump back to -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 24 to make that last document an exhibit? We haven't done 25 it yet.
1761 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, please. 2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P-284, your 3 Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-284: Document No. 7000339 July 7 27/'95 Maple Situation Report 8 No. 024 period covering July 9 26-July 27/'95 from Capt. 10 W.D. Smith, Tac. Com. Camp 11 Ipperwash 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: Going back to the -- the night of 15 July 29th, you were called in by Captain Smith. You 16 attended and I gather, again, you wanted to be paid for 17 your call in -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- by Captain Smith and expressed 20 that to him, but I gather you weren't paid for that, 21 either. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Is that -- is that right? 24 A: Yeah, there was -- we were never 25 paid.
1771 Q: Yeah. And you asked to be paid for 2 that night, didn't you? 3 A: Oh, I -- I don't know, is it in there 4 that I asked? 5 Q: Yeah, if you look at -- it is, 6 actually. If you see -- 7 A: Well, then I have proof now, then. 8 Q: He -- he records it, it's on P-275. 9 It's -- it's a document that's been entered as an 10 exhibit. I don't think it's isn your binder, is it? 11 A: No, I probably -- I -- I -- 12 Q: P-275? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: It's -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You really 18 should give this Witness a copy of the document if he's 19 going to be asked questions about it. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we can him the 21 exhibit. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Give him the 23 original. I probably have it in this binder here, if you 24 make -- if you tell me which number it is. 25
1781 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Tab Number 5. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's Tab Number 5 as 5 well. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In whose 7 binder? 8 MR. DONALD WORME: In the Witness' 9 binder. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: In the witness' binder. 11 We marked it with the last witness as P-275 and... 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 13 document that isn't authored? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 18 -- is there an author to this document? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I wouldn't know. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I didn't 21 think so. I made a note when we were looking at that 22 there was no obvious author. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1791 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: In fact I'm sorry, I've -- to confuse 3 things further, Mr. Antone, I've put that before you, but 4 I don't think the passage I was looking for is in that 5 document. It's in another document, which has not been 6 marked as an exhibit. 7 It -- let me just read it, so that rather 8 -- we can -- won't waste time. It's -- for the record, 9 it's Document 7000576. It was Tab 45 in Mr. Elijah's 10 book of documents. 11 And it says at the third page of that 12 document, this is, again a DND recording. It says, 13 referring to you and Mr. Elijah: 14 "Both individuals subsequently arrived 15 at Ipperwash, were briefed by the Tact 16 commander, Captain Smith, and attempted 17 to seek removal of the Stoney Point 18 Group from the Camp. 19 They failed in their attempt and 20 Military forces were subsequently 21 ordered to withdraw. The two (2) 22 individuals..." 23 Referring to you and Mr. Elijah: 24 "...have indicated that they would seek 25 financial compensation, but a bill has
1801 not been received." 2 So, the document indicates that you did 3 see financial compensation, presumably for your efforts, 4 although unsuccessful from the Military's point of view. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 6 hard time finding what you're reading from. I just would 7 like to have it in front of me. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's Document 7000576. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, there 10 are several documents under that heading. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's the third page. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it the 13 document that's signed by Captain Smith? Because there's 14 a two (2) page document by -- 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Captain Smith and it's 16 the next page. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 18 That's the document that I -- again, I'm not sure who's 19 the author of that document or what that document is. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: And it's about halfway 21 down that page. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About 23 halfway down that page? 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: That third page. It's 25 not a big point.
1811 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I just 2 wanted to follow it. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: But -- yeah, it's not a 4 big point, I just-- if you've got a financial claim with 5 a lot of interest, they may be waiting for a bill, but 6 your role there... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, it's -- I'm -- I'm 11 assisted that it's authored by someone by the name of 12 Captain Bachelor (phonetic), if you turn two (2) more 13 pages over. And I'm further assisted that it's already 14 marked as an exhibit, P-276. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm getting a lot of 17 assistance here. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know it's 19 marked as exhibit, but the exhibit number P-276 has got a 20 number of separate documents. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 23 they should have all been put in as one (1) exhibit 24 because we've made only reference to a very small part of 25 the letter that was, in fact, signed by Captain Smith.
1821 But, in any event, they're all in there and -- 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: They're all in there. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I don't 4 want to make a mountain out of a molehill either. I just 5 couldn't find the part that you were quoting, but you've 6 quoted it now and that's enough. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: Does that -- all of this was just a 10 very small that -- does that refresh your memory that you 11 expected to be paid for this but wasn't? 12 A: Yeah, I mean, that was the original 13 idea and I think, well, when the Military was gone I -- I 14 think I tried to contact -- I -- I remember trying to 15 contact Captain Smith and he was, I think, living in 16 Hamilton -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- at the time, some time after that 19 and I -- I just was never able to get a hold of him. So, 20 I didn't pursue it because everything else was -- got 21 busy around there and I -- at that point, I was pretty 22 much -- felt that my role there was -- was done. I was 23 going to try and get someone to take care of the billing 24 of it, but it never did happen. 25 Q: All right. You say on July 29th that
1831 the Military removed some assets and you saw that and 2 they did that in some trucks. How many trucks are we 3 talking about, do you know? 4 A: Oh, I can't remember. 5 Q: One (1), two (2), ten (10), twenty 6 (20)? 7 A: Maybe a couple, I don't remember. 8 Q: A couple of truck? Okay, and these 9 were large trucks, were they? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. And did you have occasion 12 then, that night on July 29th to look into any of the 13 buildings to see what was in the buildings? 14 A: I think I went into the -- I think 15 the only building I went into was the office, you know, 16 the -- where he was taking the phone calls from -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- after he left -- because shortly 19 after he left, probably within a half an hour after he 20 left, I left. 21 Q: All right. So, you didn't see what 22 the Military left in the barracks? 23 A: No. No. 24 Q: Now, did you have any involvement at 25 all with the Stony Point occupiers and the Stony Point
1841 issues between July 29th and September 7th? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you -- did you have any contact 4 with anybody in that period of time? 5 A: I think I probably talked to a couple 6 of people and maybe when they came down to Oneida -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- I may have talked to some people 9 during that period of time, but I did not come up to the 10 area until after the incident in September. I felt that 11 my role at that point was pretty much completed. I 12 didn't see why -- nobody asked me to come up. 13 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And you heard 14 about the occupation of the Park on September the 4th? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And that was in all the news, and I 17 take it you were -- 18 A: Yeah, that's where I heard it from -- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- was actually in the news. 21 Q: Did you hear -- did you learn at that 22 time or in or about that time, that, or maybe before it, 23 that Buck Doxtator had joined the occupiers? 24 Did you know that? 25 A: No.
1851 Q: You knew -- you know him of course? 2 A: Yeah, I know Buck, yeah. 3 Q: He's -- he's from your Nation? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And were you then sitting in -- as a 6 traditional councillor, in that period of time? 7 A: Yeah, in a traditional Council, yeah. 8 Q: Yes. And did he come to the Council 9 and seek approval to got to Ipperwash to lend support to 10 the occupiers? 11 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall that. 12 Q: Because he testified that he attended 13 at the Park to lend support with the blessing of the Clan 14 Mothers and their Traditional Council. 15 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah, I heard that he had 16 said that. 17 Q: Did you have any recollection of him 18 seeking or obtaining support from the traditional 19 Council? 20 A: Well, one of the things that 21 happened, I think, during that time, if I remember right, 22 there was a, I think, a -- people had come from Stoney 23 Point down to Oneida, requesting support, you know, after 24 they were living in the barracks. 25 And, so I -- if I remember right, I think
1861 what the Council did at that time was they just asked 2 people to go and support them in the best way that they 3 can. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And so that could have been -- Buck 6 was probably part of that, and it was probably -- because 7 I remember, I think there was a lot of -- lot of women, 8 and -- and men that were coming up back and forth, you 9 know, either bringing the food or coming up supporting 10 them in some fashion. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And a lot of it probably mostly 13 morale support. 14 Q: Let's go to September the 7th. You 15 attend at the Army Camp barracks. What time did you 16 arrive? 17 A: I can't remember whether it was on 18 the 7th or on the 8th, -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- but -- or when I actually got 21 here, because I was out of town when that incident 22 happened. And -- and I remember coming in in the 23 evening, and it might have been -- I don't know whether 24 it was the evening of the 7th or the 8th, when I did come 25 in.
1871 Q: And, you -- whenever you came in, it 2 was the evening, was it? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And -- and I was supposed to meet 6 Bruce and a number of other people that were called in, I 7 was supposed to meet them here, or at the -- at the gate, 8 or at the Camp, and there was -- there was nobody around. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: And then I heard -- I called around, 11 and I heard that there was a meeting going on between the 12 OPP and Bruce and, I believe, Glenn, and I'm not sure who 13 else, but I did not know where that meeting was -- was 14 being held. 15 Q: Yeah, we've got a list of the 16 attendees and you're not on it so... 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yes. Okay. What was your role as a 19 mediator or -- 20 A: At that point? 21 Q: -- peacekeeper, what -- yes, we heard 22 from Bruce Elijah that his role had to do with security 23 with police issues -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- and security. He said you had a
1881 different role than his. But, I didn't understand from 2 him what your role was. 3 A: In that situation I -- at that point 4 I came in primarily just as a volunteer because of my 5 interest in -- in the area and my interest in the issue. 6 And -- and I know that there was some calls to -- to my 7 home phone from people up at Stoney Point to let me know 8 about what was going on and asked if I could come up and 9 help them. 10 And when I -- when I did come up I didn't 11 know what my role was going to be at that point. And as 12 things unfolded and -- and that, I think the primary 13 objective after for me was to get that document -- I'd 14 seen a document about -- earlier on, I can't remember 15 which one it was, but it was the agreement to do the 16 investigation. 17 Q: This is the September 17th document? 18 A: Yeah. Yeah. 19 Q: Some nine (9) or ten (10) days 20 after -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- you'd arrived? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Yeah.
1891 Q: So, it took a long time to get that 2 document in place? 3 A: Yeah. I mean, there was -- I think 4 most of it was -- immediately following that, there was a 5 lot of tension here. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: You know, and -- and I don't think 8 anybody was even thinking investigation or whatever. I 9 mean, the hostilities in the area were pretty intense and 10 I think it was mainly just to call -- calm down. 11 I know I was here for a little while and 12 then I -- I went home and I came back. Once, I believe 13 the Regional Chief Gord Peters and some others, once they 14 got involved. They had asked me to -- to come and assist 15 them. And then out of that was that document came out of 16 that. 17 For some reason, I don't know, and I guess 18 it's because of the factionalism that was -- that was 19 being experienced between Stoney and Kettle Point as well 20 as the -- not knowing who to talk to at Stone -- at 21 Stoney Point. We just became a messenger I think. 22 For a while there that's what it felt 23 like. I was just a messenger boy between -- between 24 Stony and Kettle Point and some of those -- and the OPP. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
1901 A: And -- and in the end, I mean, we 2 ended up -- that document came out of that. And then the 3 investigation happened. And then, pretty much after 4 that, I didn't -- I was -- my responsibilities in that 5 regard were -- were pretty much finished. 6 Following that, I think maybe in a while 7 after that I was asked by the Stoney Point people to come 8 up several times when I believe they had -- they had a 9 Federal mediator out of INAC or -- I can't remember his 10 name. 11 He -- I think he was a Mohawk from 12 Tyendinaga. And he was going in and -- and trying to get 13 some sort of agreement to -- to do the cleanup. And I 14 came up a couple of times for those meetings. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: But, other than that, that's -- 17 that's where my -- and it was usually by their 18 invitation. 19 Q: All right. Just a couple of last 20 questions. You were asked about your efforts to preserve 21 the scene, that is the scene of the shooting and -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- and the confrontation that 24 occurred in the area of the Park, Army Camp Road and East 25 Parkway. And I take it in terms of preserving the scene,
1911 by the time you arrived the scene had already been 2 contaminated by a lot of people going through it and 3 people picking things up. 4 It didn't remain, even from the time that 5 the incident occurred to the time you arrived, a 6 preserved scene -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- did it? 9 A: No. No. 10 Q: And I gather by the time you got 11 there, either on the night of the 7th or the night of the 12 8th of September, as far as you understood, a lot of 13 people had been through that area? 14 A: Yeah. I would -- I would think so. 15 It seemed like it anyway. 16 Q: Yeah. And, as you said, people had 17 been picking things up, like shell casings and so on? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And I gather you didn't make any 20 effort yourself to preserve what was left of the scene 21 thereafter until the investigation? 22 You didn't take any steps to preserve the 23 scene from the time you arrived until the investigation? 24 A: Well, I'm not a specialist in 25 investigations.
1921 Q: Fair enough. I just want to make 2 sure that -- I didn't -- I didn't expect you'd tell us 3 you were, but I just -- because you were asked the 4 question by Mr. Worme -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- I wanted to make sure that we 7 understood that you didn't do anything to preserve what 8 was left of the scene from the time of your arrival until 9 the -- 10 A: Yeah, well -- 11 Q: -- investigation took place? 12 A: -- the only thing to do is to tell 13 them to leave the -- the area the way it is. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: You know, that's all I -- you know, I 16 said. 17 Q: And were you there continuously from 18 the 7th or 8th of September, until at least the 17th of 19 September? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? Does that mean you were coming 22 and going from your home in London? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Or in -- 25 A: Oneida, yeah.
1931 Q: -- Oneida? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And so you don't know 4 yourself what went on in that area and that scene, during 5 that period of time -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- certainly when you weren't 8 present? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And when you were present, I gather 11 you weren't at the scene, you were elsewhere doing -- 12 A: Yeah, I was -- well, I was -- 13 Q: -- other things? 14 A: -- meetings or -- yeah. 15 Q: Meetings? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: So you have no sense yourself of what 18 went on in that -- at that scene through that period of 19 time? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. Finally, one last 22 question for you. It's about the -- the stop that Mr. 23 Rosenthal asked you about in which you were accompanied 24 by Chico Ralph. This is the OPP stop. 25 A: Yeah.
1941 Q: And there is... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: Can we take a short break? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure, by all 7 means. We usually break around now. Would you like a 8 break -- we'll break right now. But, you're almost done. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm done. I've just got 10 one last little small area and then -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you wait 12 for one last small area or do you want to break right 13 now? 14 THE WITNESS: No, that's fine. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: We have to get something 16 up on the screen, so maybe it's a good time to break. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 20 now. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 23 our afternoon break. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.
1951 --- Upon recessing at 2:42 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 2:55 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: Mr. Antone, as I said, I wanted to 11 deal with this one last topic. It's the stop that 12 occurred on September 17 and I've now had put up on the 13 screen a document in the database, it's 1000600, and it's 14 a London Free Press Report of the next day, September the 15 18th, 1995. 16 The headline is: 17 "Long on Stories but Short on Facts. 18 People are just looking to pump up this 19 story, says one (1) Native leader. 20 Hear the one about the forty (40) 21 police officers surrounding two (2) 22 vans arriving at Ipperwash from Oka? 23 Maybe you did, but it didn't happen, at 24 least not like that." 25 And then going down about three (3)
1961 paragraphs, it reads: 2 "There are an incredible number of 3 rumours going around, said Bob 4 Bressette." 5 Now, stopping there, do you know Bob 6 Bressette? 7 A: Bob Bressette? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: He's a councillor at -- or was then a 11 councillor at Kettle and Stony Point Band? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: "People are just looking to pump this 14 story up, maybe out of frustration. 15 Among the misimpressions in 16 circulation, the van story. 17 Receiving at tip that Oka, Quebec, 18 Mohawks were arriving with weapons, 19 forty (40) police officers, Saturday, 20 surrounded two (2) vans and searched 21 them only to find blankets, clothing 22 and food supplies. 23 According to police and some natives, a 24 single van was stopped. OPP Sgt. Doug 25 Babbitt wouldn't say why or how many
1971 officers in search, then allowed to go 2 on its way. 3 The driver was mediator Bob Antone, 4 Bressette said. Antone was in constant 5 telephone contact with Bressette as the 6 van was searched and police returned 7 everything to the van and allowed him 8 to proceed. 9 There was nothing excessive going on by 10 either Antone or police, Bressette 11 said." 12 Okay, that's reported on, at least, the 13 day or two (2) days later. This occurred Saturday night, 14 the 16th. Do -- first of all, do you read the London 15 Free Press? 16 A: If I can't get access to the Globe 17 and Mail. 18 Q: Well, now there's a vote for Toronto. 19 And do you remember seeing this article with your name in 20 it? 21 A: No, I don't. No, I don't remember 22 seeing it. 23 Q: Did anybody bring it to your 24 attention? 25 A: No.
1981 Q: No? Anyway, it says, apparently that 2 you were in contact during this event with Bob Bressette 3 and I gather from your evidence today, you were in 4 contact with someone on the phone while this was going 5 on. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Was it Bob Bressette? 8 A: It could have been because I called 9 whether the meeting was going to be, which was the Band 10 Office. 11 Q: Yeah. So, it makes sense that it 12 could have been him. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Well, he says according to this 15 article that you were and that you said or he learned 16 from you in this that there was nothing excessive going 17 on by either you or the police? 18 At least that was what he took from his 19 conversation with you on the phone at the time that the 20 search was happening? 21 A: Yeah, but you also have to look at 22 the overall article. He's trying to downplay the whole 23 situation. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And so what I -- what I said today, I
1991 think still -- to me, still stands. I believe that there 2 was. It wasn't necessary to -- to do -- to do what was - 3 - what was being done. I mean, even the fact that you're 4 stopping a vehicle with forty (40) officers, I mean, if 5 that's -- 6 Q: Well that was -- that was the rumour 7 that they were trying to put to rest. 8 A: Yeah. And I know there wasn't forty 9 (40) officers, but I also know that there was excessive 10 use and the -- the fact that why would you point weapons 11 at someone? 12 Q: So, when he says, at least according 13 to this report: 14 "There was nothing excessive going 15 on --" 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: "-- by either Antone or police." 18 A: I think he was being kind. 19 Q: He was being kind? And he was -- it 20 appears he was drawing that conclusion from the telephone 21 conversation he was having with you at the very time this 22 was occurring? 23 A: Could have been, I mean -- I mean 24 that's his opinion of that conversation. 25 Q: All right. Okay. Thank you. Those
2001 are my questions. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Could we mark that as an 4 exhibit as well, please? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-285. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Can we reserve P-285 for 10 -- for this? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 12 a hard copy of it here. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll help Mr. Roland, 14 we'll get a copy. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it will 17 become Exhibit P-285? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-285. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Mr. Hourigan. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-285: Document No. 1000600 24 September 18/'95 London Free 25 Press article "Long on
2011 Stories but short on facts." 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: 4 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. 5 Antone, my name is Bill Hourigan, I act for Mike Harris. 6 I know it's been a long day and I just want to clarify a 7 couple pieces of your evidence, okay, and take you to a 8 couple of pieces of information in your book. So, I 9 would ask you to turn up Tab 1 of your documents, which 10 is Exhibit P-271 in this case. 11 And if you could look please to page 3 of 12 that document. In particular -- I know you've been taken 13 at various points in this document -- I want to 14 concentrate on the paragraph, the first full paragraph on 15 that page, paragraph 4-C, it's entitled, Comment, and it 16 reads as follows: 17 "The immediate benefit of this plan is 18 that the two (2) senior Native 19 negotiators have agreed to approach 20 Glenn George within the next forty- 21 eight (48) hours. They will advise him 22 of this plan and impress upon him the 23 need to immediately cease aggressive 24 action against members of Camp 25 Ipperwash until the meeting of 26
2021 August '95 has had a chance to 2 establish a working plan. Should they 3 be successful, it will be possible to 4 begin reducing MP's by 17 July 1995. 5 Additionally, should the meeting of 26 6 '95 be successful it may be possible to 7 completely remove the MP personnel from 8 Camp Ipperwash and only use daily MP 9 visits out of Detachment in London in 10 conjunction with the commissioner's -- 11 commissioner's support at the main 12 gate." 13 Do you see that? 14 A: Yeah. Okay. 15 Q: All right. Do you recall a 16 discussion about you and Mr. Elijah immediately going to 17 meet with Mr. Glenn George? 18 A: On -- during the training session? 19 Q: Right. Within forty-eight (48) 20 hours? 21 A: Yeah. There was something like that. 22 I can't remember whether there was actual deadlines on 23 that. 24 Q: All right. Was that the -- the beach 25 meeting that you told us about?
2031 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. And did you understand 3 that Mr. George -- Mr. Glenn George was a leader of the 4 occupying group? 5 A: He appeared to be to me. 6 Q: And what -- what did you base that 7 on? 8 A: Well, he was the one that seemed to 9 do -- liked to talk. 10 Q: Right. And from that you concluded 11 he must be -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- the leader? 14 A: Yeah. I concluded from that. Plus 15 there was also always someone else around. I mean, there 16 was a number of other people there. Some of the ladies 17 that were there also had a great deal to say too as well. 18 You know, so I think that often times during this kind of 19 discussion you have to talk to several people, and 20 certainly Glenn was one of them. 21 Q: Right. But the -- the Military was 22 directing you to speak directly to Mr. Glenn George? 23 A: Yeah. And, I mean, that's what their 24 -- their view is, that they -- I think that it's always 25 your culture's view to see -- to identify one (1) person
2041 as a leader of a group. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: And that's not -- that has not been 4 the case in this particular situation. 5 Q: But you certainly identified him as a 6 leader; correct? 7 A: Yeah, as one of the spokesperson's 8 anyway. 9 Q: And when you met with him did you 10 take the time to explain to him what the purpose of the 11 Native circle was, i.e., did you explain to him the point 12 of this Native circle that was being proposed was to 13 ensure that there was an orderly transfer of the Army 14 Camp? 15 A: Yeah. I think that was probably part 16 of the discussion. 17 Q: That's part of it, okay. Was another 18 part of it suggestion or request by you, which was 19 originally suggested by the Military, to impress upon Mr. 20 George the need to immediately cease aggressive action; 21 was that part of your discussion? 22 A: Yeah. I would -- I would think so. 23 I would think it was. 24 Q: And what -- what type of aggressive 25 action are we talking about?
2051 A: Well, I don't know, I think it's 2 mainly -- what I understood was that they were -- there 3 was a lot of name calling going on, a lot of people kind 4 of badgering each other I guess you might say. 5 Q: Provocation? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Well, I don't know whether I'd use 9 that word or not but I said -- the word I'm using is that 10 they were badgering each other. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: And I think that that was -- it 13 seemed to me, in our discussions, that it was coming from 14 both sides. 15 Q: All right. But you -- you asked him 16 to -- to try to cease that -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- action? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And the idea was to cease aggressive 21 action until such time as you'd had an opportunity to 22 conduct a Native circle and see if things could be 23 resolved and we could move forward with an orderly 24 transfer; correct? 25 A: Yeah.
2061 Q: All right. And did you get any 2 commitment from Mr. Glenn George in that regard? 3 A: No. I think that there was -- from 4 what I recall of that meeting, I think it was mostly -- 5 there was -- a lot of the women that were in that meeting 6 that were talking, they were very resistant to trusting 7 anyone, even at that particular meeting. 8 And I think that I did not know all of the 9 people that were there, and I think they were -- 10 certainly didn't trust me yet. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: And so it was -- I think that was too 13 early in the discussions to -- to even -- even propose 14 any of that kind of solutions. 15 Q: So you -- you raised the fact with 16 them but you didn't feel that you had a commitment from 17 anybody to cease the aggressive action? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Correct? 20 A: Yeah. I would say that, yeah. 21 Q: All right. Now, I'm going to ask you 22 to turn to Tab 4 in your book of documents. So the first 23 document we looked at was right after you did the CCAT 24 training, okay? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2071 Q: Now, I wanted to jump you forward to 2 two (2) days before the actual takeover of the built-up 3 area. 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: And this is a report, OP Maple 6 Situation Report Number 24, and it's dated July 27th. 7 And I take it -- I know one of My Friends took you to 8 this earlier, I just want to confirm -- as at that date 9 the information reflected in paragraph 2-C is accurate; 10 isn't it? 11 A: C? 12 Q: 2-C? 13 A: 2-C. That a meeting was arranged? 14 Q: Well, let -- let me just take you 15 through it. At 2(c) it says that you contacted the 16 office and advised them that, first of all, the SPG group 17 was still in the process of picking their three (3) 18 people to attend -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- the Native circle; correct? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And you were aware of the resistance 23 of Tom Bressette -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- to go into such a meeting, but you
2081 were going to go and meet with him again, correct? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And that you would arrange the 4 meeting between Captain Smith and Glenn George to discuss 5 issues surrounding signs and security; correct? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you had offered to act as a 8 mediator; right? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Correct? 11 A: Yeah. Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. So as at that time, from what 13 you could tell, Stoney Point group was still interested 14 in doing the Native circle, they still looked to you as a 15 mediator -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- and you were working as best you 18 could to try to resolve any differences as between Tom 19 Bressette's group and the Stoney Point group; is that 20 fair? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And then two (2) days 23 later, without warning, the Stoney Point group takes over 24 the built-up area? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2091 Q: And you've testified they didn't tell 2 you anything about that in advance; correct? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You didn't know it was coming? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And it would be, I think, fair to say 7 that that was contrary to what they were telling you two 8 (2) days ago when they were still indicating a 9 willingness to take part in the Native circle ceremony; 10 correct? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you'll agree with me as well that 13 the aggressive takeover of the built-up area was 14 completely contrary to a notion of having a process for 15 an orderly transfer; correct? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Now, did anyone, after the fact, 18 after July 29th, come to you and say, I want to explain 19 why it was we decided not to go with an orderly process 20 and just take back the built-up area? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you ask anybody why they did 23 that? 24 A: I think I did but I never ever got an 25 answer.
2101 Q: Never got an answer. Now, I -- I 2 also take it, after the takeover of the built-up area, 3 nobody from the Stoney Point group approached you again, 4 did they, and said, We'd like help establishing an 5 orderly process for the transfer of the Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park; isn't that fair? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The document 10 that you were referring to has an exhibit number, P-284, 11 if you wish -- 12 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Two eighty-four 13 (284), okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to 15 identify it for the record. 16 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Thank you, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 O'Marra...? 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Antone. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: My name is Al O'Marra and I appear on
2111 behalf of the Chief Coroner. We're interested in, 2 largely, issues that followed in the aftermath of Dudley 3 George's shooting. 4 Now, I'm sure, as you know, part of the 5 Commissioner's mandate is to deal with healing issues -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- and so I'd like to ask you some 8 questions around another aspect of your expertise, as I 9 understand it, your involvement with mental health and 10 the treatment centre -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- at Oneida. We have heard 13 evidence, Mr. Antone, that indicated that there is 14 significant emotional and psychological cost to the 15 community as between Kettle Point and Stoney Point, but 16 also to individuals who were witnesses to the violence -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- who were directly involved, and 19 have either been shot at or shot -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- having been involved in -- in 22 seeing the altercation. We also heard of the stress that 23 community members underwent, immediately following the 24 events. Effects on the Elders. 25 In questioning of Chief Tom Bressette, I
2121 asked him about the sufficiency of the services that were 2 made available for crisis counselling. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And in response to my question, 5 particularly as it stands today, he indicated that there 6 was still a great need for services. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: The program that you run, in your 9 community, was that open to the members of this community 10 in the aftermath of the shooting? 11 A: We weren't open yet. 12 Q: When did you establish -- 13 A: Six (6) years ago. 14 Q: Okay. Now, I expect that we will 15 also hear that, in terms of crisis counselling, the 16 funding for that largely comes from Health Canada and 17 that there's -- 18 A: And the Aboriginal Healing and 19 Wellness Strategy of the province. 20 Q: Well that's what I wanted to ask you 21 about, because I understood that from Health Canada that 22 they supported it up to a maximum of fifteen (15) hours-- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- per individual. And I wanted to 25 find out what was available through the province --
2131 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- to deal with crisis or trauma 3 counselling? 4 A: Hmm hmm. Well, certainly, I mean we - 5 - we do that in our facility today. I mean, some of 6 those individuals who went through the 1995 incident have 7 attended our programs. 8 I can't give you a list of all of their 9 names, because -- 10 Q: I don't want that, sir. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: I don't want -- 13 A: But there's been several of them who 14 have come to deal with -- with that particular trauma in 15 their lives. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And some of them have gone -- come at 18 least two (2) or three (3) times to the program. 19 Q: And how is that accessed so that if 20 members of either -- 21 A: Well -- 22 Q: -- Stoney or Kettle Point, wanted 23 to -- 24 A: Well from here they -- it's through a 25 referral process. A local family -- family workers or
2141 their alcohol and drug abuse workers will usually refer - 2 - clients to us. 3 Or, I know for some of them, they -- they 4 knew that I was working where -- at the lodge and they 5 made a personal request to have time at the lodge and so 6 sometimes it's a direct referral from the client, him or 7 herself. 8 Q: I just ask you this: Is it 9 available, in effect, as -- as an outpatient service? 10 Sir, one of the comments that we heard was that several 11 people felt unsafe, even outside -- even today, outside 12 of the confines of the territory -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- and would want to have access to 15 services -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- but felt that they would be 18 better served if the services were available to them 19 where they are. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: Yeah, I know that in the first two 23 (2) or three (3) years there was a -- there was several 24 of them in there that were actually afraid to come out of 25 the camp area.
2151 Q: Right. 2 A: And we had sent in, and this was 3 prior to the lodge being opened, and this was more 4 services of people that we had known. And I know that 5 there were several healers that were sent into the area 6 to assist the people there. They either took them there 7 to run sweat lodge ceremonies or conducted healing 8 circles inside the camp itself. 9 In most of those cases, those were people 10 that -- that I knew of and had encouraged to go there to 11 assist them. A lot of those events I didn't attend, 12 though, myself. 13 Q: And just, finally, are the services 14 that -- that are provided through -- through your 15 facility, are they both traditional and what might be 16 referred to as mainstream practices? 17 A: Yes, we -- we -- will provide both. 18 Our primary focus, though, is our traditional or 19 culturally-based practices, but we do -- we can access 20 western practice. 21 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Atone. Those 22 are my questions. 23 A: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much.
2161 Mr. Worme...? 2 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have any re- 3 examination, Mr. Commissioner. 4 I would like to take this moment, though, 5 to thank Mr. Antone for attending here and providing us 6 with his evidence and I guess we are adjourned now until 7 Wednesday, March the 30th at 10:30 and we intend, on that 8 -- on that occasion to proceed to hearings on both -- on 9 Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll have a 11 three (3) day week when we come back. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: That's right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Mr. Antone, for coming and giving us your 15 evidence, you're through now. Thank you very much. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 17 18 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will now 21 adjourn until Wednesday, March 30th at 10:30. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 23 adjourned until Wednesday, March 30th at 10:30 a.m. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 3:30 p.m.
2171 2 3 Certified Correct, 4 5 6 7 8 _________________ 9 Dustin Warnock, 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25