11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 9th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) 24 Maureen Smith ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 BRUCE ELIJAH, Sworn 6 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 172 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 174 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 180 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 198 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 212 12 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 272 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-271 Document 7000321 July 13,14/'95 OP 4 Maple, situation report No. 013 5 from Capt. W.D. Smith, Tactical 6 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 55 7 P-272 Document 7000338 July 24, 26/'95 8 OP Maple, situation report No. 023 9 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 10 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 71 11 P-273 Document 7000573 July 13-17,'95 12 summary of recent developments 72 13 P-274 Document 7000324 July 13-15/'95 14 OP Maple, situation report No. 014 15 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 16 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 79 17 P-275 Document 7000341 July 28-30/'95 18 OP Maple, situation report No. 026 19 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 20 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 95 21 P-276 Document 7000576 July 28-30/'95 22 OP Maple, situation report No. 027 23 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 24 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 100 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-277 First Nation Investigative Team 4 DVD, Video footage September '95 147 5 P-278 Document No. 1001399 November 29/'95 6 Attn: Supt. Parkin re: Project 7 "Maple" 157 8 P-279 Document No. 1009203 December 04/'95 9 08:17 a.m. email to Peter Sturdy 10 from Les Kobayashi, MNR - Parks and 11 Recreation, Subject: Ipperwash 12 Meeting December 02/'95 161 13 P-280 Document No. 1001301 November 1/'95 14 Press Release West Region OPP 15 Listing warrants fro the arrest of 16 individuals as a result of incidents 17 during the Ipperwash Provincial Park 18 occupation. 164 19 P-281 Document No., 2000331 Agenda for 20 Peacekeepers Dinner, November 08/'95 21 13:00 hours 169 22 P-282 Haudenosaunee (People building a 23 Longhouse) Home Web site, 25 pages of 24 official source of news and information 25 re: The Haudenosaunee 220
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit NO. Description Page No. 3 P-283 Document No. 1000572 July 17/'95 4 Subject: OP Maple Summarizing a 5 number of recent developments. 270 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, Ms. Vella. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission -- the 11 Commission calls as its next witness, Mr. Bruce Elijah. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. Elijah. 14 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Elijah. 16 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Good morning. 17 THE REGISTRAR: How are you this morning, 18 sir? 19 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Good. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 21 the bible, affirm or use an alternate oath, sir? 22 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: An alternate. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Alternate oath? 24 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Yeah. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. And I
101 understand that you have your own wording to that oath, 2 sir? 3 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Yeah. 4 THE REGISTRAR: I ask you to share that 5 with us now and please speak clearly into the mic. 6 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Okay. Yeah. 7 8 BRUCE ELIJAH, Sworn: 9 10 THE WITNESS: In our teachings, whenever 11 we -- just about every morning before sunrise, we get a 12 chance to address to and do an evaluation of -- of who we 13 are as a people. And so there's three (3) times in a day 14 that is given to us and it's at sunrise -- just before 15 sunrise and at high noon, about high noon, and -- and 16 just before sunset to acknowledge our walk of life and 17 how we see and how we understand the world and what is 18 given to us. 19 We have responsibility as human beings, as 20 caregivers, as caretakers of those responsibilities given 21 to us, to all of creation and so when it -- when I'm 22 asked to -- to speak to -- to address to, I come from a 23 long lineage from the beginning of time of people who are 24 the truth, who know what respect is and who know what 25 honesty is.
111 So, I stand or sit before you today in the 2 eyes of my ancestors and the future. Oh, okay. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 4 5 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Mr. Elijah, I understand that your 7 name in English is Bruce Elijah. And would you also 8 advise us of your name and the meaning of your name for 9 our benefit? 10 A: My spirit name is Kalihwakelu, and 11 that was given to me at birth. And we follow in the 12 clans that we are born into. We're a matriarchal society 13 so we follow on the mother's side. 14 The name that is given to me has been 15 handed down from one generation to the next. I don't 16 know how far down I am with that, but when it was given 17 to me, it means one who interprets the teachings. And so 18 that's -- that's the name that I have. 19 And the nation that I come from, we call 20 ourselves Onyotak'aka, people of the standing stone. Or 21 in English we say Oneidas. We're part of the Iroquois 22 Confederacy, the Six Nations, that we call ourselves, the 23 Haudenosaunee, people of the longhouse. And so there's a 24 long history of that. 25 And so today we still continue that and
121 some of my children and -- and pretty well my 2 grandchildren, we go back to where we only have our 3 spirit names. And so we continue that honourable and 4 good ways of who we are as a people in the eyes of 5 creation. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: Thank you. 8 Q: I understand that your date of birth 9 is July the 8th, 1945? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And your current residence is at the 12 Oneida Nation in Ontario? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Where is that located approximately? 15 A: It's about an hour's drive from here, 16 it took me this morning. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And normally -- and -- all right. 20 It's -- it's nearby London; is that right? 21 A: Yes. Southwest of London. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: I understand that the Oneida Nation 25 is comprised of three (3) sister nations?
131 A: Yes. We have a sister nation out in 2 Oneida, Wisconsin, by Green Bay. And our homeland is in 3 Oneida, New York. And, of course, here in southwest 4 Ontario, near London. 5 Q: Would you tell the Commissioner what 6 your -- what your -- I'll say occupation, but what I mean 7 is to say what is your -- your role, your primary roles 8 and responsibilities within your community? 9 A: Within the community my role is -- is 10 basically -- goes back to -- I come from a lineage on my 11 grandfather's side of hereditary chiefs which, in that -- 12 in that role that it's the women that pick who the 13 leaders are to be. We don't have an election as we know 14 it today. You're chosen by who you are, by the family 15 that you're born into. And on -- so that would be the 16 political side. 17 On my grandmother's side, she's a -- she 18 was a healer, she was a midwife. And so I have a little 19 bit of both, I guess. And -- and at a very young age I 20 was taught, trained to -- to be in that way, you know, to 21 -- and my thing I guess in all of this was -- was -- my 22 main interest was how do we stop the pain. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And so it comes from that way of 25 coming into as to who I am today.
141 Q: And what -- how does that role 2 translate, if you will, outside of your community and 3 into the broader aboriginal community? 4 A: I work in many clinics across the 5 Country and I work with doctors to see, you know, the 6 many sicknesses and diseases that our people have is that 7 sometimes, you know, the history of our people is that 8 prior to the turn of the century is that there -- there 9 was no cases of our people having diabetes, cancer, heart 10 conditions or any respiratory problems. There was none. 11 Our people lived to be a hundred years 12 old, plus. And so many of those, again, those teachings 13 is to be able to look at what is our medicines, what is 14 truthfully our medicines that do work. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: So, that's part of what I do, too, is 17 work in the clinics and I work in healing centres across 18 the country. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And indicated also that there was a 22 political aspect to your -- your roles and 23 responsibilities, can you advise as to what the principle 24 form that political role takes? 25 A: What -- in our -- in our confederacy
151 we have fifty (50) chiefs throughout the confederacy. In 2 our community, in our nation we have nine (9) and there 3 are three (3) clans in there, so there are three (3) 4 chiefs in each clan. 5 And at one (1) point, I was -- in the 6 early '60s, I was appointed to one (1) of those 7 positions, up -- up until 1981. And so I spent a lot of 8 time sitting with the elders throughout the confederacy 9 and taking a look at and understanding those -- those 10 responsibilities of understanding what those treaties 11 are, the wording to that and the countries that we have 12 treaties with . 13 And so you take a look at the judiciary 14 responsibilities with the Federal Government and you get 15 a real good clear understanding of where we are in this 16 world, of what works and what doesn't or what is working 17 for our nation and then what -- and what do you do with 18 that and -- and how do you bring it to the attention of - 19 - of the world today? 20 And, you know, in -- I always look at the 21 education system of our country is that the very books 22 that I read when I went to school that depicted us as -- 23 as, you know, people who live in the woods and, you know, 24 are not educated and are illiterate and we're always 25 going to be, you know, wards of, you know, the
161 governments that come into -- and there's been many 2 others prior to, you know, the -- the British. 3 And so when you begin to take a look at 4 it, those are the very books that your children and your 5 grandchildren and our children are reading today in the 6 education system, so nothing has changed. 7 So, you can kind of get an idea of where 8 our thinking comes from and -- and I say it today and 9 I've said it in the past is that, you know, the history 10 of what Canada is based on is not a good one. 11 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 12 the organization or societal organization that your 13 community was based on, a clan structure -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- would you advise as to what the 16 three (3) dominant family clans are and what your clan 17 is? 18 A: Yes, we have the -- the Turtle, the 19 Bear and the Wolf and I come from the Wolf family. 20 Q: And what distinguishes the Wolf 21 family from the Bear and Turtle families in terms of 22 responsibilities? 23 A: We are kind of -- go out there and 24 check things out, you know, as the wolf does, checks out 25 his territory everyday and see if everything's all right.
171 As with the Turtles, they're -- they're the people that 2 have the memory of and keep the sacred bundles and keep 3 the sacred ceremonies. And the Bear clan are the keepers 4 of the medicines. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Now, I think you indicated earlier 8 that on the political side, you -- you carried out a 9 particular role from the early '60s -- did you say to 10 1981? 11 A: 1981. 12 Q: All right. And in that connection, 13 did you have occasion to represent your community in the 14 international forum? 15 A: Yes, I did. After Wounded Knee, we 16 were -- there were several people that was asked or 17 chosen -- delegated to look into of what it would -- what 18 would it take to be able to bring our issues before the 19 UN for the Human Rights Commission. Because in the 20 United States there's no way that we were going to be 21 heard and -- and in Canada the same thing. 22 You know, it takes -- very expensive to 23 get a lawyer --I think I'm in the wrong field sometimes - 24 - to get a lawyer and -- and to be able to be 25 represented, to get legal representation to bring it to,
181 say, the Supreme Court of Canada, our concerns, you know. 2 And so we wanted to bring it before the world forum. And 3 so I was one of the people that was delegated to do that. 4 Q: Okay. I wonder if we can spend a few 5 moments on the -- on the governing structure of Oneida. 6 And, in particular, I understand that there is -- there 7 is a structure called the longhouse. 8 I wonder if you would kindly describe the 9 role and place of the longhouse at Oneida? 10 A: The history of the longhouse is that 11 in our language we call ourselves the Haudenosaunee 12 people, that's what it means when you say the longhouse, 13 is that we -- the symbolism of -- there's two (2) doors 14 at each end and we say that the one (1) door would be 15 when we're born into this world and the next door is when 16 we leave this world, when we finish, and so what do we 17 learn in that -- in that space between when you're born 18 until you're finished. 19 And the teaching of that is that there's 20 symbolically these teachings that is given to us. Our 21 governance and how we govern and how we live by are not 22 man-made. In any political world that we live in today, 23 those laws that you abide by are man-made. Ours isn't. 24 Our teachings and our governance is -- is by the Creator. 25 So, you know, that's where, I guess, we
191 differ, you know, in our beliefs. And that -- and that 2 role is that it's neither, you know, me as being 3 president or the king of that makes it happen. It isn't. 4 I have to -- we have a society, a nation 5 of people that we are -- that we're responsible to, that 6 we're accountable to. And they're the ones that choose 7 as to what are we supposed to do or how we're suppose to 8 go about it, and remind us of those roles and 9 responsibilities. 10 So, we learn -- what we're taught is all 11 of those roles and responsibilities of understanding what 12 our role is in that creation. Because also, you know, we 13 -- we have responsibilities not only to the -- to the 14 land, to Mother Earth, and, you know, we are -- and I 15 said it before -- is that the land belongs to us. 16 You know, we didn't come from any other 17 part of the world. This is where we put -- the Creator 18 put us here to look after the resources and the land and 19 all of what it has and that's given to us. And so we try 20 to understand what that role is. 21 And are we competent to be able to -- to 22 handle that. And as human beings, as individuals, we 23 have a choice with that. We have a -- I have a choice 24 either to accept that or not accept it. 25 Q: And I understand that certain types
201 of decisions take place at the longhouse. Can you advise 2 us as to the protocol, if you will, the decision making 3 process that's involved with respect to this -- this 4 organizing or governing structure? 5 A: In order to be able to look at the 6 future we've got to -- we've got to really understand our 7 past of where we come from as -- as a people who are 8 placed on this earth and -- and where our direction comes 9 from and how it plays in that role. And so, to us, we -- 10 we can go back to the beginning of time. 11 And those roles and responsibilities and 12 very clear. And so as we -- as we learn that process, 13 even today as the governance goes, is that we look at 14 mainly what our ceremonies are to be throughout the 15 season. We have nine (9) ceremonies -- major ceremonies, 16 that we do throughout the year. 17 We're also looking at how many new babies 18 are being born in -- in the year to be aware of that and 19 to let the people know that there are ceremonies that are 20 to happen when the children get their names, and the 21 different stages that they go through in life and of -- 22 of bringing awareness to them, and also to be able to 23 look at the future, the future of our people in the world 24 that we live in and, you know, the cutbacks in education, 25 health, you know, a simple thing as water, you know, is
211 it safe to drink? 2 And, as simple as it may be, and it sounds 3 that way at times, is that that is the very essence of 4 life is -- is -- is water. Sometimes we can sit for many 5 days talking about what that future is going to look 6 like. 7 And if you can imagine us living in -- in 8 -- in Canada in the province of Ontario and the little 9 postage stamps community that we live in is that how do 10 we address that to our surrounding communities and -- and 11 that we do have a concern, whether it be housing, whether 12 it be education, whether it be health, sanitation, you 13 know, the air quality, the sicknesses and the diseases 14 that have come to us -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- is that how do we -- how do we 17 exist? How can we? So, I would say that majority of 18 what -- of what our time is based on is -- is the well- 19 being of our families. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: That's what it's all about. 22 Q: And by extension, do your people also 23 have a history of, and responsibility towards rendering 24 assistance to other aboriginal communities when 25 requested?
221 A: That's our -- that's what our whole 2 confederacy is based on, is that we're economists, we -- 3 we, you know, we do the things that is given to us to be 4 able to -- to survive. And in time, that if we do need 5 assistance, whatever -- whatever that may be, then we are 6 to call to the other nations to -- to help us whatever 7 that needs may be. 8 And so again, our people are -- are well 9 known for that in the past, is that there's been many 10 nations that have come to us. For Oneidas alone is that 11 we have twenty-seven (27) other nations that came to us 12 for help back in the 1700s. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And we're reminded of that sometimes 15 by those nations that we have helped in the past. We -- 16 we are still in a treaty making process with other Indian 17 nations. 18 In -- in my time alone I've seen where we 19 made alliances with the Hopis, the Navajos, the 20 Kickapoos, the Yakhis, the Sioux and the -- the latest 21 one is the Shuswap and the Okanagans in British Columbia 22 and that was in 1987 of September. So, that's the latest 23 one. 24 Q: Is there a protocol or process which 25 is to be followed before -- before a decision is made --
231 A: Oh, yes. 2 Q: -- to send individuals out to other 3 First Nations? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Could you explain what that process 6 is? 7 A: Whenever any nation feels that they 8 need assistance or they need help, one (1) of the first 9 things that -- that you have to look into is that you got 10 -- you have to be able to speak your language. 11 And there -- there are three (3) songs 12 that -- that is given to you by your nation and there are 13 three (3) sacred medicines that you will bring to and 14 there are usually runners or messengers that are 15 delegated to first bring that to the Great Council of 16 Peace, which is in Onyota'aka. And they're the -- that's 17 the capital of -- of our Nations, where you first come to 18 -- to seek that assistance. 19 And then from there the, you know, the -- 20 the Grand Council will then decide as to whether they 21 need all of our support or all the Nations' support, or 22 is it an individual Nation that's going to be able to 23 assist. 24 In many cases the history of our people is 25 that there were many Nations that came to us for -- for
241 that assistance. And so, again, the history as far back 2 as you can go has been there that -- that we've, you 3 know, we -- we sit down and work out what those protocols 4 and those procedures are, and then we follow them to the 5 T, and we still do. So, that's still in existence today, 6 that process. 7 Q: In relation to -- to your Nation 8 then, has the longhouse considered requests for 9 assistance to other First Nations in, for example, in 10 protests or struggles with respect to reclaiming of land 11 and those types of issues? 12 A: Yes. There have been many people 13 that have come, many Nations have come to -- to us and 14 asked for assistance. And so many of that again is -- is 15 the procedures, the legal procedures as to how would be - 16 - if there was treaties or agreements that was and then 17 to look at the territories of our peoples. 18 And so we have, as you have a map of 19 Canada, we have a map of our territories. 20 Q: In -- in order for someone to be 21 dispatched to another traditional territory or reserve to 22 render assistance on behalf of the Oneida -- on behalf of 23 the -- the longhouse, do they have to be designated by 24 the longhouse for that position? 25 A: Yes.
251 Q: Okay. And at any time between 1993 2 and 1995 did you sit on the Council at the longhouse, the 3 decision making body? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Have you discharged the 6 roles of peacekeeper and negotiator on behalf of the 7 Oneida Nation outside of your committee -- sorry, 8 community pursuant to a designation by the longhouse? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And how long have you discharged the 11 roles of peacekeeper and negotiator in that respect, for 12 what period of time? 13 A: Could you repeat that question again? 14 Q: Certainly. Over what period of time 15 have you discharged the role of peacekeeper and 16 negotiator as a designate on behalf of the longhouse? 17 A: My goodness, it's been a while. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you want 22 to stop, Mr. Elijah, we will do so anytime you want to. 23 Do you want a break? 24 THE WITNESS: No. It's all right. That 25 particular role -- there's things that you do in a --
261 within a family, within a community, and part of that 2 training when you do -- when you work for your community 3 will determine if you're -- if you're able to do outside 4 of your community, to -- to other Nations and to other 5 peoples. 6 And so I guess my first test came into 7 being probably in 1958, was sort of my introduction as to 8 am I -- you know, am I capable or am I able to? And, you 9 know, today my thing is always to phase myself out of 10 those responsibilities and those roles and so what you do 11 with that is then you train others, hopefully, you know, 12 to be able to -- to -- to learn this process. Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. Thank you. Would you -- 16 and is this a -- a role that therefore you continue to 17 discharge? 18 A: Up to now, yes. 19 Q: Would you explain what the role -- 20 primary role and responsibilities of a peacekeeper and 21 negotiator within the Oneida tradition is? 22 A: First of all, I guess the bottom line 23 is that how do we stop bloodshed, first. 24 Second is that to be able to talk to all 25 Parties involved and -- and third is to be able to look
271 at what our -- the issues and what are the concerns that 2 -- that needs to be addressed and to give all parties an 3 opportunity to be able to, you know, to create that 4 platform where they can speak to and address to, so that 5 all -- everybody hears and then to lay out some ground 6 rules in terms of how we can bring a peaceful resolution 7 to that. 8 It seems very basic, but the process of 9 how it goes -- how you do that is very hard to -- to get 10 people to -- to sit down to, to address to. 11 Q: And in that role, then, do you impose 12 decisions or facilitate decisions? 13 A: Facilitate. 14 Q: Now, we've heard some references in 15 this Inquiry to the term, "Warrior Society" and 16 "Warriors", and does that term and phrase have any 17 resonance or meaning to you in your tradition? 18 A: In our -- in our traditions and in 19 our culture we have what we call in our language 20 Atselhadiskohaget (phonetic); and that means the 21 responsibility of -- of the men to be able to provide 22 shelter, to be able to provide food and to be able to 23 provide protection if it is needed. 24 And so we -- as close as I can come to, 25 and we've used it in the past, is peacekeepers and we --
281 again, our culture is based on the great law of peace. 2 It was our peoples and our nations that we 3 gave democracy to the world, not only to us, to the 4 world; that we are the foundation of democracy, freedom 5 of speech, freedom of belief and freedom to exercise to 6 live in balance of creation. 7 And so to this day, you know, people are 8 trying to -- as much as what they can -- to be able to 9 come close to that. We have maintained that and still do 10 to this day. 11 Q: Now, I understand that you assisted 12 with the formation of a group called the Land Rights 13 Committee at one time? 14 A: Yes, this is going back after Wounded 15 Knee again, was that what we needed to is that -- we felt 16 we needed to do, was to be able to educate our people in 17 terms of what was happening in -- in Canada and in the 18 United States and the Americas and what would be 19 happening in the future. 20 We knew that what was -- what happened in 21 Wounded Knee, that there was going to be many hot spots 22 across the Country because of the situations of how -- 23 where our people -- how our people were living at this 24 point in time and so we needed to address to that. And 25 so we felt that we needed to go out there and educate our
291 people. 2 And so this consisted, not only elders, we 3 -- we took our Elders with us and -- to remind us of -- 4 of those spiritual understanding of how we handle and how 5 we deal with things. 6 And then we have many of our youth, our 7 young people, who were in the -- whether they're studying 8 law or whether they were going to school in the colleges 9 and the universities, Native Studies Program across the 10 country, was how do we get them to be able to do the 11 research that is needed. And so we -- there was a lot of 12 involvement with our peoples and our young peoples to be 13 able to -- to clearly understand the -- the times and the 14 world that we live in. 15 The treaties, again, no one talks about 16 those treaties or defines what those treaties are. And 17 if they do, then you have one side, you know, giving 18 their definition of what those treaties are, and we have 19 ours. 20 We have -- and so one of the things that 21 we learned was out of the wampums that we have, that have 22 been confiscated by the RCMP and -- and the police back 23 in the 20's. And so many of those wampums are in the 24 museums today and we don't have access to those. 25 So, you know, you can imagine, you know,
301 again, what those are. Because prior to that or prior to 2 the -- to the 60's I've never seen a wampum belt. I've 3 heard about it, I've seen pictures of it, but I've never 4 actually touched it. Yet, it belongs to our people. 5 And so back in the 20's, that's what the 6 Government did, of Canada, was to go into these 7 communities and -- and confiscate all of those sacred 8 items. And we have a history that's -- that's recorded 9 as to the events of what those were and how it took 10 place. 11 So, what we needed to do is to bring out 12 the true history to our people, as, you know, the lack of 13 what I had at the beginning of the laws of the Canadian 14 law, how it works. And so you have to understand -- try 15 to understand both sides if you can. And so our thing 16 was to be able to see how we can do that with what is 17 written on paper, with the words that go with it, and 18 explain what our wampum belts were. 19 So, we made duplicates of those -- of 20 those wampum belts and we were able to take it to the 21 communities and to show that -- what our laws are, when 22 we say, I guess, natural laws versus man-made laws, and 23 how it works and how it doesn't work. 24 Q: And so the primary function of the 25 Land Rights Committee was an educational one, educational
311 function in terms of oral history and -- and other forms 2 of aboriginal history with respect to land issues; is 3 that fair? 4 A: That would be fair. What we -- we 5 also learn as we go is that what we wanted to be able to 6 do is that the word "education" is kind of a hard word 7 because it goes back to those who have and those you 8 don't have. You know, there's a special school for -- if 9 you're rich, you can afford to -- a special school that 10 you go to. 11 And for those you can't or can't afford to 12 go to those special schools, then, you know, when you -- 13 when you say the word, "education", it depends on where 14 you went to school. 15 Q: All right -- 16 A: So -- so what we do is we took 17 another word and we call it awareness. 18 Q: All right. Raising awareness? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And over what period of time was this 21 committee active? 22 A: In the early 70's to -- probably to 23 the mid-80's, about fifteen (15) years. 24 Q: Okay. All right. Now, prior to 25 September of 1995 had you been involved as a peacekeeper
321 or negotiator in relation to disputes involving 2 aboriginal rights and land interests? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did those disputes or some of 5 them involve protests and occupations by aboriginal 6 people in which police became involved? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What -- at what point in the 9 progression of the protest or occupation would you 10 generally become involved? 11 A: Usually when it gets out of hand. 12 I'm not so much involved in the protest and the marches 13 or the sit-ins and, you know. At that time I was 14 farming, so I don't have time to be doing those kinds of 15 things. 16 And my thing was, again, when -- whenever 17 -- for whatever reasons that people are protesting to 18 bring awareness to, is that when it stops for whatever 19 reason and -- and it's usually when the people either 20 won't, you know, when the sit-ins happen and they won't 21 move and police come in and there's, you know, there's 22 people that are injured or hurt, that's usually when I'm 23 brought in, when a crisis happens. 24 Q: And what is your philosophy 25 underlying your approach to resolving or facilitating
331 these types of disputes when you enter into them? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Again, we -- we take a look 3 at who are the people that we can talk to. You know, if 4 there's something that -- if there's an avenue or a 5 process that we need to take, then we take a look at that 6 and see if that's possible. 7 And we -- when we come into the picture we 8 let them know that we've been delegated to -- to be able 9 to bring some peaceful approach to this. 10 Q: And, again, when you say delegated, 11 do you mean reference to the -- the Oneida longhouse 12 delegation? 13 A: Yes. Through our Council -- from our 14 Council. 15 Q: All right. Can you provide us with 16 some examples of -- of some high-profile, if you will, 17 disputes that you have been -- or designated to enter 18 into as a negotiator and what you did in those 19 incidences? 20 A: My first part of -- of being involved 21 with that was with Wounded Knee and then Moss Lake 22 (phonetic) with the Mohawk community up in Canandaigua in 23 Upper State New York. Raquette Point and then in 24 Akwesasne. 25 And then -- oh, my goodness, in British
341 Columbia, in the interior, Williams Lake, Alkali Lake, 2 with -- with the fishing, hunting and fishing case. 3 Gustafson Lake. 4 Let me see -- Big Mountain with the 5 Navajos and the Hopis. Wesacsin (phonetic), that's Parry 6 Island; I forgot about that one, it just came to me, 7 yeah. That's just to name the few that I -- top of my 8 head. 9 Q: I understand you also were designated 10 and attended at the Kanesatake or Oka crisis? 11 A: Yeah, it's true. 12 Q: And you had some involvement in the 13 Wounded Knee? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Wounded Knee occurred -- was it in 16 1973 approximately? 17 A: Approximate, yeah. 18 Q: And what was your specific designated 19 role there? 20 A: Was to bring in clothes -- clothes to 21 them, medical supplies and food. 22 Q: And in relation to -- I believe you 23 had an involvement in the Canandaigua or Upper New York 24 State dispute in 1972 or '73? 25 A: Yes.
351 Q: And what was your principal role 2 there? 3 A: Was to be able to identify the 4 leaders of those -- of those communities and to be able 5 to -- again we were called in to assist, so my -- my role 6 is to identify who are the people that I'm going to be 7 sitting at the table with. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: You know. And again to facilitate 10 the process. What we try to do in -- in -- as much as 11 what we can in our teachings is that ours isn't to take 12 over, you know, ours is not to take over the negotiations 13 of any process of each committee, ours is to take a look 14 at and help them, you know, and -- and if we can't we'll 15 be honest with them and tell them that we can't. 16 So, we always have to take a look at the 17 situation and -- and as much as we would -- whether I 18 know what the political structure is or what is 19 happening, I would rather sit down with the people and 20 tell me what that process would be or how it works. 21 And so, there's always these meetings that 22 happen prior to, you know, to take a look at and then I 23 report back to the Council to see, you know, whether I 24 can do that or maybe someone else can do that. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
361 A: There are many people who have 2 different roles and responsibilities within our nation. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: So, it's not always me. Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And I understand that in 6 that community, that was an assistance rendered to the 7 Mohawks? 8 A: It was. 9 Q: And likewise with Akwesasne or 10 Raquette Point, which occurred in 1975, that also was to 11 render assistance to the Mohawk community -- 12 A: Yes, that's right. 13 Q: -- as -- as a negotiator? 14 A: As a negotiator. 15 Q: And then Kanesatake or the Oka crisis 16 in 1990, what was your role there? 17 A: We were asked in the early part of 18 March to -- to see how we could assist, that they felt 19 that there was a -- they needed support and we had asked 20 them at that time of what that support would be. 21 They couldn't give an answer at that time, 22 so what we did was, we -- there was approximately seven 23 (7) people who were delegated to -- to go in and do an 24 assessment and see where and how we could help them. And 25 so there was -- I was one (1) of them that came in,
371 probably at the latter part of -- of March to look at the 2 situation. 3 I didn't spend a whole lot of time there, 4 there was others that did and then I was asked -- of 5 course when it happened, when the shooting incident 6 happened, then I was -- then I was brought back in, again 7 when the crisis, you know, happened. 8 Q: And in relation to Gustafson Lake in 9 1995, you were in attendance there as -- as a negotiator 10 also? 11 A: No. I was brought in to -- to take a 12 look at what the situation is. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And I sit on -- in British Columbia, 15 there's an elder -- elder's role of all the nations 16 within British Columbia and the interior where they get 17 together, and I sit on a -- on a -- with the Okanagans 18 and the Shuswap as -- as an advisor. 19 And so being that this was a Shuswap 20 situation, I came back in to take a look at how it was -- 21 how it was being dealt with. And the elders were meeting 22 with -- with the peoples, with the native First Nations 23 political leaders there, so that was happening, so they 24 didn't need my assistance and so I -- I was there for 25 approximately five (5) days and then left.
381 Q: All right. And in -- in the course 2 of these -- these matters, did you have any interaction 3 with police or military in discharging your roles? 4 A: I'm asked at different times and it's 5 usually -- it was done through -- mainly with the 6 Military that -- they knew what my role was. Sometimes 7 I'd get a call from the police and inform me of what's 8 happening, was I aware of? 9 And I guess it was more of a -- a 10 questioning or searching as to would I be involved or 11 could I be involved or was I asked, and so as crisis, you 12 know, arised, and usually, you know up -- again, I won't 13 respond unless I'm delegated to. 14 I can't do things on my own, won't do 15 things on my own. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And so, in short then, sometimes you 19 will receive phone calls from the military or possibly 20 the police with respect to the possibility of your 21 involvement in a particular crisis situation and then do 22 you go back to your Council at the longhouse and seek 23 guidance or pass along the requests in those 24 circumstances? 25 A: Yes.
391 Q: And then receive direction from the 2 Council and discharge whatever it is that you are advised 3 t do? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And you indicated that 6 there were a number of individuals, not just yourself of 7 course, who may be designated or even designated at all 8 to assist and is one of those individuals with whom 9 you've worked from time to time Bob Antone? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you describe for us what the 12 -- how the two (2) of you work? In other words, what is 13 the inter-relationship if the two (2) of you are 14 despatched to a particular situation? 15 A: Again, in our longhouse there are two 16 (2) sides, there are two (2) sides of -- of the political 17 structure or how it's set in is that Bob sits on one (1) 18 side and I sit on the other side. 19 And so usually when we're called into a 20 crisis situation is that there are going to be again, 21 with the three (2) clans, the Wolf, the Turtle and the 22 Bear, is that there'll probably be one (1) from each clan 23 that is going to delegated, if not more, and that's just 24 to, I guess that -- not to get into trouble of saying 25 something that doesn't need to be said or do something
401 that, you know, doesn't need to be done. 2 There's always some -- somebody there that 3 you can consult with to -- hopefully to make the right 4 decisions. And so growing up with Bob, that was sort of 5 our role because he comes from that lineage, too. 6 And so we -- many times, not all the time, 7 but many times we -- we do work together. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So, that's the reason. 10 Q: And when you work together, you have 11 distinct roles or -- or are you both negotiators? 12 A: Mine -- my role in that is doing the 13 frontline stuff. Mine is talking to people, getting 14 involved and -- and making things begin to happen, moving 15 things to happen. 16 His role mainly is to be able to talk to 17 the media and to get something on paper to look at, 18 what's on paper; he does most of the paperwork. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: When did you first become aware of 22 the claims of the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point in 23 relation to the lands comprising Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: That's been around for quite a long 25 time and getting to know the peoples, you know, of Kettle
411 and Stony Point is, you know, that's something that's 2 always been there as far as I can remember. 3 And different families and -- have raised 4 that -- those -- their concerns and the people who were 5 from or who are descendants of Stoney Point was always 6 looking at and saying that there would come a day, 7 hopefully there would be come a day when they would be 8 able to go back home. 9 And so those kinds of stories and, you 10 know, it was heartfelt and -- and hoping that, yeah, that 11 would be nice, you know, to be able to see the day when - 12 - when they can go home. So, that's been there for a 13 long time. 14 Q: And when -- when you had these 15 discussions with the individuals or families concerning 16 the ability to go home and the wish to go home, what was 17 your understanding as to what lands they wished to go 18 home to in terms of the physical boundaries or, if you 19 will? 20 A: We knew that -- and at different 21 times in the past, you know, there was families that 22 showed me the perimeters of the Military Base and -- and 23 the beach. And I also was aware of between the Military 24 Base and the lands in between there, there's some -- 25 there's a strip of land there that -- that the non-Native
421 people are living also. 2 Q: I'm sorry, between the Base and 3 where? 4 A: Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. All right. And, just for 6 clarity, did -- did you understand there to be any claims 7 in relation to the Park area? 8 A: What was the question again? 9 Q: Did you understand there to be any 10 claims or, at least, that the Ipperwash Provincial Park 11 was part of that home territory as pointed out to you? 12 A: Oh yeah. When you look at the land, 13 whether it's Provincial Park or Military, it -- the 14 people of the lands who are from there look at it as 15 their homelands. It doesn't matter whether it's under 16 the Parks or whether it under the Military Base, you look 17 at it as one (1) piece. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: As a whole piece. 20 Q: And is the basis of your information 21 then the actual relaying to you by families of their 22 belief and their history? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And is there any other basis that 25 informed your belief in that respect?
431 A: Back a few years ago we were asked to 2 come and partake in -- in their ceremonies. And I was 3 part of that, I was part of the group that was asked to - 4 - to come and heard many stories of the sacredness of the 5 land of the people of Kettle Point and Stoney Point. 6 And back in the past, several hundred 7 years ago, that was a meeting place for many nations that 8 came across from all over. And people came there at 9 certain times of the seasons and certain times of the 10 year. And sometimes people -- the meetings went on for 11 months and sometimes I would assume that it was longer 12 than that. 13 The place was well known not only for its 14 healing and for people who came there to do healing work, 15 but it was also a place where they come to get certain 16 stones that the flints were made from. It's one of the 17 best places that you can get, you know. 18 So, there was, I suppose, many trades that 19 -- and that was the history of our peoples, was that, 20 again, is that how -- where do we go to assist and to 21 help each others in time of need. And a lot of that was, 22 again, is that what -- how do we use these weapons in our 23 -- for our hunting purposes, you know. And so -- or even 24 for us, for our people, in the farming, in the farming 25 that we did and -- at that time.
441 And so it became -- I became more aware of 2 -- of the community and -- and the resources and what -- 3 you know, it has a history of its past. I was very 4 intrigued by it and understanding what those where. 5 Q: And did you also form an 6 understanding based on -- on what you heard from the 7 people concerning the nature of why it was that they were 8 unable to go home and what it was that caused them to 9 leave there in the first place? 10 A: Yes. Again, in trying to -- to take 11 a look at, you know, the picture, get a full picture of 12 what happened, how did they lose their lands and who made 13 those decisions for those things to happen, and try to 14 understand what was going on, you know, outside of Kettle 15 and Stony Point, what was Canada thinking at that time, 16 it they were -- if it was, is that I would look at Canada 17 and then why take land away from Native people when you 18 have so many other -- such big chunks of land that you 19 could put any military base on. You know, why take it 20 from the native people? 21 So, there was an agenda, you know, that 22 was done and how to disturb and how to disrupt, you know, 23 that lifestyle and what they knew it as to be. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: So, you get to learn that and look
451 into it and to see where that thinking comes from. 2 Q: All right. Now, what was your first 3 formal involvement in the Camp Ipperwash dispute? 4 A: I was asked by Bob -- Bob Antone to 5 assist him to do a workshop for the Military and that was 6 early part of that spring, I think it was, of that year. 7 Q: Do you under -- who -- where did the 8 original, or least where did the request to conduct this 9 seminar originate from? 10 A: It was from the Military. 11 Q: Okay. And did you have any under -- 12 what was your understanding as to what it was that the 13 Military, and this is the Military I take it, at Camp 14 Ipperwash; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What is it that they wished to 17 receive from you in terms of a seminar? 18 A: As I understand is that our job was 19 to create an awareness and -- and also to be able to 20 address to the spiritual aspects of what the land means 21 to us as a people. 22 And with that in mind, I -- we, you know, 23 the rumours was that -- that the military base was going 24 to be less and less and less each year and that there's 25 that time coming where -- where Canada or the Province of
461 Ontario are going to be working together to be able to 2 give the land back to -- back to the people of Stoney 3 Point. 4 Q: And I wonder if you would just look 5 at for a moment, the document at Tab 4 of your brief. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And it's Inquiry Document Number 10 4000328. It's a article by the Globe and Mail and it's 11 dated Saturday, July 15, 1995. And you'll see -- I'll 12 just read a little bit for you at the beginning of the 13 article: 14 "With tensions rising because of an 15 increasingly violent aboriginal 16 occupation of this military camp, two 17 (2) key Oneida negotiators from the 18 1990 Oka crisis have begun talks to 19 negotiate a peaceful resolution. 20 Captain Doug Smith, commander of the 21 Military Police Detachment at the camp 22 on Lake Huron said in an interview that 23 when he arrived on June 28th, quote, 24 'tensions in the area were escalating 25 to the point where they were about to
471 go out of control. There was genuine 2 fear that what could happen here could 3 turn into something similar to Oka.'" 4 Close quote. 5 Now, was it your understanding that one 6 (1) of the reasons why the Military requested that you 7 assist in putting on this cross-cultural awareness 8 training session was to deal with the Military's 9 perception of the environment that was going on in the -- 10 at Camp Ipperwash in terms of the occupation and the 11 military presence? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And did you have -- did 14 you have direct dealings with Captain Smith at this time? 15 A: Again, Bob and I -- it was mainly -- 16 Bob was the one that was, you know, was more in contact 17 with him than I was. You know, I was there with him and, 18 you know, we -- we heard the concerns in -- in -- in 19 talking with him and also our -- made it fairly well 20 aware to him that we had to -- we also have the 21 responsibility to give whatever -- whatever the 22 discussions were, you know, to -- to the people of -- of 23 Stoney Point. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: So, you know, whatever concerns he
481 had we had to bring it to them too. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And -- and just going back to the -- 5 the seminar itself, did -- was a -- a cross-cultural 6 awareness seminar, in fact, conducted for the benefit of 7 the Military? 8 A: Yes, there was. 9 Q: And do you recall when it was 10 conducted? 11 A: The exact dates, no. 12 Q: Could you kindly look at Tab 1 -- 13 A: Tab 1. 14 Q: -- of your brief. It's Inquiry 15 Document Number 7000321 and it is a -- a note -- 16 confidential note prepared by Captain Smith, noted as 17 being the Tactical Commander for Camp Ipperwash. 18 The first item refers to the cultural -- 19 cross-cultural awareness training being conducted and 20 that several high ranking native negotiators are present. 21 Now, my understanding is that this seminar 22 occurred on July 13th and 14th of 1995. 23 Does that sound about right to you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was it, therefore, prior to the
491 occupation of the built-up area by members of the Stoney 2 Point Group? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were there other individuals at - 5 - at 2(C), it's indicated that the seminar was completed 6 and that the following persons were in attendance as -- 7 as facilitators included Captain David Scandrett of the 8 Canadian Rangers; do you recall him? It's page 1. 9 A: Yeah. I don't recall. I know that 10 there was a lot of people there -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- but I can't remember exactly what 13 their roles were. And up to that time, Canadian Rangers, 14 you know, I've heard of them or I heard of the outfit, 15 but I really didn't know what they did up until that 16 time, and so we had a chance to, again, you know, as they 17 introduced themselves and what their roles and 18 responsibilities is, do you become aware of, you know, 19 what their -- what their role is. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So, it's an educational part, yes. 22 Q: And what did you -- what did you 23 understand their role to be relative to this matter? 24 A: The -- the Rangers, as we got to -- 25 we got a chance to talk to -- it might have been this --
501 this person, this Captain David, is that maybe that was - 2 - you know, if -- if it was him, but we talked -- there 3 was two (2) individuals that we talked to and their role, 4 as they explained to us was that to be able to help 5 communities in time of crisis, whether it's to bring in 6 generators or -- for electricity or -- or build a bridge, 7 or repair a bridge if need be, in a crisis situation. 8 And -- and so that was interesting to know 9 that -- that a communities we, you know, we can ask for 10 these assistance and for their help. 11 Q: And it lists here that there was a 12 Leigh Jensen, native education policy unit with the 13 Ministry of Education and Training at Ontario. Do you 14 recall that person or someone -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: He was there. And Priscilla George, 17 Native Education Policy Unit, again with the Ministry of 18 Education and Training Ontario? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Paul Trivett, who I understood was a 21 police constable with the OPP in the First Nations 22 policing section. Do you recall him being there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And also Constable Murray Wood, again 25 with the OPP in the First Nations policing section?
511 A: I don't remember. 2 Q: All right. Apparently there was a 3 reporter from the Globe and Mail there by the name of 4 Peter Moon? Do you recall that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Dick Bressette, as an elder 7 from Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Bob Antone, as a negotiator? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And yourself, again, as a negotiator? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what types 14 of topics were discussed by yourself and Mr. Antone at 15 this two (2) day seminar? 16 A: Again, it's taking a look at what the 17 land means to -- to our people. Because it seems to be 18 that they were thinking it -- Military Base, as they were 19 looking at the former Military Base and that there's all 20 kinds of ammunition being buried or, you know, back out 21 there, is that what good is that land to the people of 22 Stoney Point. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And so there was -- you know, the 25 talks were that there was going to be -- it would take a
521 long time to -- to clean the area, so how did that entail 2 and what was that all about. 3 And so our thing was to try to sensitize, 4 I guess, the Military in terms of what the land means to 5 us, no matter what state it's in. And then how do we, 6 you know, yeah, how do we clean it up and how soon can 7 that land revert back to -- to the original people's. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So, our thing was to be able to -- to 10 address to that and -- and at the same time I guess to 11 put a, you know, a time of when the -- when the land 12 would be reverted back to the people. So our role was 13 mainly to -- I guess to get both sides to see as to why 14 it had to take this process. 15 Q: So, to facilitate an understanding 16 not just with respect to the Military in terms of letting 17 them understand why the land was important, but also to 18 the aboriginal people to understand what practical issues 19 there were involved? 20 A: That's right, yeah. 21 Q: And what was your -- what was the 22 response by the Military to the teachings that you 23 provided, from your -- based on your observations? 24 A: There was very little understanding 25 of our cultural heritage and what those -- what the land
531 means to us. And so we had to kind of walk them through 2 it, doing little ceremonies just to get them -- to 3 sensitize them to understand where our people were coming 4 from on that. 5 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 6 did you learn in terms of the Military's attitudes 7 towards the occupying members of the Stoney Point group 8 as a result of this cross-cultural awareness training 9 seminar? 10 A: We -- after each session we sit down 11 and -- and do an evaluation in terms of did, you know, 12 did we address to, did we, you know, with the topics and 13 -- and do we feel that they're ready to go to the next 14 level. There are different stages that we go through. 15 And -- and so we were looking at that, that there were 16 going to be many more meetings that needed to happen. 17 Q: So, then it was anticipated that this 18 was the first -- 19 A: It was the -- 20 Q: -- step? 21 A: -- first one. Yeah, first step. 22 Q: And did you communicate what you 23 learned from the Military to members of the -- the Stoney 24 Point group who were at the Camp? 25 A: Yes, we did.
541 Q: And what did you convey to them? 2 A: What we try as much of what we can is 3 to be able to, again, to bring it to their attention of - 4 - that there were talks and that there was the beginning 5 stages of -- of addressing to them getting their lands 6 back, so... 7 Q: And what was their -- their response 8 to the information that you provided? 9 A: I think in any situation like that I 10 could just, you know, imagine the anticipation of some of 11 the elders, is that they don't have a whole lot of time 12 and so the sooner the better. And some, again, maybe for 13 the younger generation, is that as we hear, again, 14 promises, you know, and when is that -- you know, the 15 reality of -- of that going to happen. 16 So, we can only convey of what we felt and 17 what we were asked to, you know, to -- to participate in 18 and but there was a process, a beginning process. 19 Q: All right. Commissioner, before we 20 move on, I'd like to make this document the next exhibit 21 for clarification of the record, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Exhibit is P-271, 23 your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-271. 25
551 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-271: Document 7000321 July 2 13,14/'95 OP Maple, situation 3 report No. 013 from Capt. 4 W.D. Smith, Tactical 5 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: We will come back to this document in 9 a little bit, Mr. Elijah, but I wonder if I can move onto 10 another topic for the moment. 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: Up to this point in time, that is the 13 time of the cross-cultural awareness training seminar, 14 had you already had discussions with members of the 15 Stoney Point group who were occupying the land about 16 their intentions to -- to occupy and reclaim the Camp 17 Ipperwash lands? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And over what period of time did 20 these -- or I should put it this way, when did these 21 discussions start? 22 A: Right around that time, in July, was 23 that there was more. They had requested as to a lot of 24 the questions that they had was how do we deal with the 25 Oka crisis, what would be, you know, the proper
561 procedures or -- and what not to do or get themselves 2 into. 3 So, that was many of the discussions at 4 that time. 5 Q: And based on what you advised us 6 earlier, had there been a request for assistance made at 7 that -- by the -- the Stoney Point group to the Oneida 8 nation or to the longhouse for your assistance? 9 A: That happened later on. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Yeah. It wasn't at that time. 12 Q: So, in this -- at this time was your 13 involvement more in the nature of an informal 14 involvement? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you indicated that they wished 17 to know some of -- of your advice with respect to how to 18 do things and how not to do things. Can you tell us what 19 advice you gave to these members with respect to what 20 they should do and what they shouldn't do? 21 A: It seems to, at that time, that the 22 Military Base was going to be handed back to the people 23 at Stoney Point; seems like that was -- you could see 24 that in the horizon that that was going to happen. With 25 -- with the Park, that was another -- another issue.
571 And so I -- again, I, you know, I didn't 2 deal with it as much at that time with the Park, because 3 that -- in the -- you know, that's in the season when the 4 Park is open to the public and so we had, you know, part 5 of what I had said to them, I remember, was stating that 6 why don't you wait until after, you know, after the 7 season is over with. 8 Q: All right. And that's with respect 9 to plans to occupy the Park? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And what was the rationale behind 12 your advice that they should wait until after the Park -- 13 sorry, the season, closed? 14 A: There's less people. 15 Q: Did you provide them with any other 16 advice in relation to what they -- how they should go 17 about this proposed occupation of the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. Earlier, prior to July of 20 1995, had you had discussions with individuals from the 21 Stoney Point group, the -- concerning the advisability of 22 occupying lands? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in that relation, who did you 25 have conversations primarily with?
581 A: With the elders. And whenever -- 2 whenever I met with the Elders then we always met with 3 their daughters or their sons or relatives and so it was 4 -- and there was children, too, sitting and we sat with 5 them and talked to them about what the process would be 6 in -- in, you know, it is most -- I guess we're looking 7 at again, is that how do you do it in a peaceful way. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. And when did those 9 conversations happen in relation to either the occupation 10 of the Camp or the Park? Was it before one of those 11 events or -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Which? When? Before which event? 14 A: Before the shooting incident there 15 was many meetings that took place and some we were 16 invited to -- to potluck and social events and, again, 17 that's an awareness, you know. 18 And there was topics listed in terms of 19 what, you know, what -- what the topics would be. And 20 so, again, ours was to identify what -- what those 21 concerns would be. 22 Q: All right. And, just so that I can 23 understand a little better the timeframe over which these 24 discussions occurred -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
591 Q: -- did they commence after the 2 occupation of the Camp in May of '93 or before? 3 A: After. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And were there -- which -- who were 7 the primary elders with whom you had the majority of your 8 discussions? 9 A: I can't remember offhand. 10 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say that they 11 were elders who were self-identified as having had 12 ancestral connections -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- to the Stoney Point Reserve? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. You indicated that there 17 was a desire to understand how to carry out an occupation 18 in a peaceful manner. What advice then did you give in 19 relation to how that might be accomplished? 20 A: One (1) of the grandmas had mentioned 21 that, she says, Do we tell our sons, our men to -- to go 22 in and take the land back. And I say, No that would be 23 the wrong move because if the men go in then the police 24 will come in or the Military will come in and they know 25 how to deal with men, you know, We'll shoot them.
601 And, I said, The best way to do it is -- 2 is get the grandmas and the children to do it. I says, 3 They don't know how to deal with that. 4 Q: And did you have any other advice in 5 terms of conduct of the people when they are -- once they 6 were onto the land? 7 A: We had several meetings with them 8 that they had called us to sit in or to ask us if we 9 would come in and say what is the next step, you know, to 10 do, yes. 11 Q: All right. And -- and what steps did 12 you suggest? 13 A: What -- again we come back to, you 14 know, what is it that they want, you know, the things 15 that -- they've been living on the land, you know, and 16 the surrounding areas, designated area, and -- 17 Q: Of the Camp, Ipperwash? 18 A: Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just a 19 matter of, you know, coming in to the Camp itself where 20 the buildings are, so... 21 Q: Hmm hmm. Did you provide them with 22 any advice concerning whether or not there should be 23 firearms of any kind? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You didn't provide them with advice
611 or you didn't -- 2 A: We -- no. What we did was we -- we, 3 as negotiators, is that we hardly ever get involved with 4 where there's -- there's guns or weapons involved. It 5 just doesn't make sense. You know, that's -- that's sort 6 of how we -- how we do things. 7 If, in -- in a crisis situation where 8 there is, then again, how do we come in to, you know, to 9 put the weapons down, because that doesn't make sense, 10 you know. Again, ours is to avoid bloodshed. 11 Q: And did you convey this as one (1) of 12 your -- one (1) of your ground rules to these 13 individuals? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If your advice had been -- well, 16 okay. And you referred to a particular conversation with 17 -- with one of the grandmas; can you recall which grandma 18 that was? 19 A: Glenn George's mother. 20 Q: Okay. All right. As of then, the 21 early summer of 1995, prior to the cross-cultural 22 training session, were you aware then of -- of any 23 considerations by the occupiers to move into, ultimately, 24 the built-up area? 25 A: I had heard rumours about it, but
621 personally, myself, to -- somebody to talk to me about 2 it, no. 3 Q: All right. So, these were general 4 conversations that you were involved in -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- seeking general advice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You didn't have any information or 9 understanding about things like the timing of this 10 possible -- 11 A: I had no idea. 12 Q: Thank you. Now, I'd like to address 13 next, the period following the cross-cultural awareness 14 training seminar. And there was a period following July 15 13th and 14th -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 17 be a good time to take a break? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's almost 20 10:30 and -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- it certainly is 22 convenient and I was just seeking advice from My 23 Colleague. We certainly could. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 25 would be a good time to take a morning break.
631 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 10:26 a.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 10:43 a.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 THE WITNESS: I'd like to address next, 14 the period following July 13th and 14th, or the cross- 15 cultural awareness training seminar up to the occupation 16 of the built-up area, so the time between mid July and 17 the -- and the end of July, essentially. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now, as I understand your earlier 21 evidence, the Oneida longhouse will not send people into 22 another aboriginal community without an invitation or 23 request and you indicated just before the break that at 24 least as of the time of the seminar, that request had -- 25 had not been received?
641 A: As far as I know, that it hadn't up 2 to that point, but there were -- there were talks about 3 that leading up to that -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- as to what the procedures and what 6 the protocol would be. 7 Q: And did you provide that information 8 to -- to anyone? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Who did you provide that information 11 to? 12 A: Again, to the elders and to the women 13 and -- and their families. 14 Q: All right. And was a request 15 ultimately received by the longhouse for assistance? 16 A: It was. 17 Q: And from whom was it received? 18 A: Again, I can't say because I wasn't 19 there. 20 Q: All right. Was it -- can you tell me 21 whether it was from the representatives of the Stoney 22 Point Group who were occupying the land, or the Kettle 23 and Stony Point Band itself? 24 A: It was the people of Stoney Point. 25 Q: All right. And do you recall
651 approximately when that request was received, 2 approximately? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I don't know, but it was, you know, 7 leading up to I think it was just before the shooting 8 incident. 9 Q: All right. And so you believe it was 10 after -- after the occupation of the built-up area? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Possibly, was it after the occupation 13 of the Park commenced? 14 A: In or around there. 15 Q: Okay, thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 All right. I wonder if you would go next 20 to Tab 1 of your binder and it's Inquiry Document Number 21 7000321 and it's Exhibit P-271. 22 We looked at this document earlier, I'd 23 like to draw your attention to -- it's the third page of 24 the document, but it's noted as being page 2 of 4. 25 This is the notes by Captain Smith. And
661 you'll see at Tab, or sorry, Item 3C-A. Particularly, it 2 says: 3 "During the process of the CCAT, a plan 4 of action was developed that would 5 enable the Military to mediate its way 6 out of this situation. 7 This plan also presented a means of 8 immediately reducing tension between 9 the Stoney Point group and Military 10 persons of Camp Ipperwash and in the 11 near future, will provide a means of 12 ensuring the environmental assessment 13 is completed in conjunction with the -- 14 with an orderly hand over of the land 15 to Kettle and Stony Point Band/Stoney 16 Point group. 17 The plan is -- as outlined as follows 18 and a detailed plan will be developed 19 over the next two (2) weeks." 20 And Item A refers to the holding of a 21 meeting or native circle to be held on the Oneida reserve 22 to be conducted over five (5) days starting August 26th, 23 1995 to be attended by various individuals including 24 yourself and Bob Antone and various elders, 25 representative from the OPP, representative from Kettle
671 and Stony Point Band police, Captain Scandrett of the 2 Rangers and et cetera. 3 Then at B it indicates that: 4 "The meeting will be conducted with a 5 view to determining the following: 6 Establish a plan that will allow the 7 environmental assessment clean up to be 8 completed in a secure manner and in a 9 manner that is satisfactory to the 10 natives, 11 M. M. Dillon..." 12 Who I understand was the -- the agency 13 that might be cleaning it up, 14 "...and the Military. And to establish 15 a plan that will allow the military to 16 meet its obligations of due care and 17 diligence with respect to the signing 18 and jurisdiction of the area, until the 19 environmental clean up and hand over is 20 complete, and to establish a plan that 21 will allow the Kettle and Stony Point 22 Band police to begin a joint patrol law 23 enforcement on the training area prior 24 to and during the clean up, 25 essentially"
681 Do you recall there being plans to hold 2 such a meeting or native circle at which these items 3 would be discussed and negotiated? 4 A: There was talks, again, of -- of 5 different procedures as to how that would be addressed 6 and this -- that particular one I don't believe I was 7 there for that one. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But there was, yeah, there was -- you 10 know, again, recommendations and suggestions in terms of 11 how can we get --if there was any way that we were going 12 to facilitate the process, then we were willing to do 13 that at -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- at that time, yes. 16 Q: And if you look next at Tab 3, this 17 is Inquiry Document Number 7000338. It's another 18 confidential memorandum or notes by Captain Smith for the 19 period, July 24 to July 26th, 1995 and if you look at 20 item 2(C), it indicates that: 21 "During the past twenty-four (24) 22 hours, the following has been 23 determined. Bob Antone and Bruce 24 Elijah have been in contact with Glenn 25 George at least three (3) times. All
691 three (3) meetings were positive and 2 the Stoney Point Group remains 3 interested in attending a native 4 circle. 5 All Parties are concerned about the 6 probable Stoney Point Group reaction 7 when they are -- when they are 8 officially informed that the meeting of 9 August 26th is now cancelled." 10 Turn over the next page: 11 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah will meet 12 with Tom Bressette, 25th or 26th of 13 July, 1995 with a view to convincing 14 him to sponsor the meeting scheduled 15 for July -- August 26th, '95 and the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources has 17 erected a large sign on the Military 18 beach side of Ipperwash advising 19 campers not to proceed west of the 20 Ipperwash boundary." 21 Now, do you recall, firstly, whether or 22 not you had a meeting -- well, firstly let me ask this, 23 do you -- do you have any understanding as to why the 24 August 26th meeting was -- is now cancelled or was 25 cancelled?
701 A: What we always try to do is that 2 whenever any of the parties is -- is in these sessions, 3 in -- in these meetings is that if something comes up for 4 reasons why, that things get cancelled and then as soon 5 as was hear that from one (1) of the parties, then we 6 always take a look at what would be the following dates 7 that people would be available to do that. There was 8 many meetings that was cancelled, you know. This was not 9 the only one. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But, you know, again, we're looking 12 at when can we, you know, bring all the parties together? 13 Q: But wasn't it at this time that the 14 concept of having a meeting which would accomplish or 15 attempt to accomplish the items that we just reviewed -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- was not going to happen, it's 18 just that it couldn't happen on that particular day? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Could we make this the 21 next exhibit, Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-272. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25
711 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-272: Document 7000338 July 24, 2 26/'95 OP Maple, situation 3 report No. 023 from Capt. W. 4 D. Smith, Tactical Commander, 5 Camp Ipperwash 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: And would you also look, please, at 9 Tab 44 of your book; it's Inquiry Document Number 10 7000573. 11 It appears to be another typed memorandum 12 or notes originating from the Military. And at the 13 bottom of the first page there's a report that the 14 cultural -- cross-cultural awareness training was 15 conducted at Camp Ipperwash July 13th to 14th to assist 16 Military Police and Camp staff in understanding native 17 issues and actions, which you've talked about. 18 And then on page -- the following page -- 19 under page 3, there's -- under Item -- Item 8, I think it 20 is for: 21 "Following discussions with the Camp 22 staff and MPs, Bob Antone and Bruce 23 Elijah proposed a traditional meeting - 24 - native meeting -- a circle be held at 25 a neutral site on August 26th. The day
721 coincides with, quote "new moon", close 2 quote and has native significance and 3 outlines the same objectives." 4 And that's the -- that's again, the same - 5 - the meeting that we were talking about that -- that was 6 cancelled. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. So, make this the next 9 exhibit, please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-273. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-273. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-273: Document 7000573 July 13- 14 17,'95 summary of recent 15 developments 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Now, were you able to have a meeting 19 the Chief Tom Bressette as was proposed to talk about the 20 possible sponsorship by the Band of this meeting? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you recall what the outcome of 23 that meeting was? 24 A: The majority of the time that we had 25 meetings with Tom was that he -- he couldn't come out and
731 say that, This is what we're going to do. What he would 2 always say is that he has to get back to his Council and 3 then they'd let us know, you know, if it was -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- yeah. So, that's how things 6 happened. 7 Q: And did you -- I'm sorry. 8 A: And just, you know, again, for your 9 information, is that what -- what we do or what I do is 10 that when -- when we're having meetings, is that they 11 mention there again of -- of the new moon phases, is that 12 that's when we have meetings, is on a new moon phases. 13 Because if you have a meeting on a full 14 moon it does not happen. And if you have -- try to have 15 a meeting after the full moon it doesn't happen in -- in 16 a last quarter. 17 So, majority of, again, you know, of 18 practices is that to have a good meeting and to have, you 19 know, some of these -- if there's any decision or an 20 agreement happens, then it's usually on a new moon 21 phases. So, that's part of, again, you know, my 22 availability is that, you know, it's on those phases. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Now, you indicated that -- that Glenn
741 George and others were -- were supportive of this meeting 2 originally? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did that support change or did 5 that view change at anytime? 6 A: I think there's always a precaution 7 on all parties, again, is that who, you know, who the 8 representatives are and who -- and it's part of what we 9 do, is that it's not us to decide as to who sits at the 10 table. What we try to do as much as what we can is to 11 have all the parties represented, and they will be chosen 12 by their own -- their own communities. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And the planning of this meeting of 16 course was in -- in July of 1995, that's when it was at 17 least being discussed for the later date, and was -- was 18 a new meeting date ever established? 19 A: I don't know. Again, that part, I 20 was probably in another part of the country, so I wasn't 21 aware of that one. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: How was this left, the issue of 25 trying to have a -- a meeting, a joint meeting to discuss
751 these issues of the turnover -- turnover of the property, 2 how was it left when -- when you left the situation? 3 A: Around what time would that be? 4 Q: Well, I'd have to ask you. My 5 understanding is that a meeting, to your knowledge, was 6 not re-established because you -- at least, you left the 7 situation. 8 A: Hmm hmm. Whenever -- whenever I'm 9 not there, there's always somebody that steps in -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- to take my place. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Again, I'm not the only person that, 14 you know -- meetings -- or -- happens or doesn't happen 15 not because of me, you know, my availability, is that 16 there are other things that I do across the country that 17 I'm called for. So, you know, again the question comes 18 back, is that was I there at that one? No, I wasn't. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Then you have no knowledge as to 22 whether or not a new date was set; is that fair? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. I wonder if you would -- 25 I wonder if we would go to Tab 2, please, of your
761 documents brief. It's Inquiry Document Number 7000324. 2 And this is a report by Captain Smith for 3 the period July 13 to 15, 1995. In Item 1(C): 4 "A Native activity during the reported 5 period to -- through observation of the 6 built-up area continued occupation in 7 the Military beach. IAW, paragraph 4 8 of Reference A, Bob Antone and Bruce 9 Elijah were observed meeting with Glenn 10 George and several others on the 11 Military beach during the evening of 12 July 13, 1995. The results of this 13 meeting have not been officially 14 conveyed to this office but the lack of 15 Stoney Point group activity suggests 16 they were successful". 17 Do you have any recollection as to what -- 18 what was going on at that time which caused you to meet 19 with certain individuals? 20 A: In any season, July 13 is a hot day 21 in this part of the country, so the day that they had 22 called for this meeting is -- I mean, we didn't want to 23 have a meeting in a closed room. 24 Q: No. 25 A: So we, you know, we always said -- I
771 always said, well, there's the beach, you know. Why 2 don't we sit, you know, in the water and we'll have a 3 meeting and cool, you know. And so that's what that one 4 was. 5 Q: Yeah, I was more interested in the 6 content or what gave rise to the meeting. We understand 7 this was during the period, remember, that you were 8 conducting the cross-cultural training awareness -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- and earlier we looked at that. 11 I -- 12 A: What we were -- what we were talking 13 about at that time was -- was -- there was a group of 14 people coming from up north and they wanted to have 15 ceremonies, so that's what that discussion was all about. 16 And for your information again, is that 17 the Park itself is -- is a very sacred place and that was 18 pointed out to me by the elders and by the people of 19 Stoney Point that, again, you know, going back to what I 20 had said previously is that many years ago there was many 21 people that came for healing and stayed for long periods 22 of time until they were well and were able, you know, 23 then to go back home -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- and so part of what the people of
781 Stoney Point were talking about at that time was that 2 when would they be able to use the facility, you know, 3 for that purpose of -- of healing, because there was many 4 people from across the country who were -- who wanted to 5 come there for that purpose. 6 So, that meeting, that's what that one was 7 about. 8 Q: So, had the -- had the military 9 expressed a concern to you about the -- the activity of 10 people from outside coming on to the Camp Ipperwash 11 property for whether -- ever -- whatever purposes, 12 ceremonies or otherwise? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: There was concerns, yeah. 16 Q: And this meeting was intended to try 17 to resolve or at least address those -- 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: -- concerns? And how -- how were the 20 concerns addressed? 21 A: Again to bring the -- all parties and 22 inform them of what the discussions was during, you know, 23 for their information. 24 Q: Did you advise the military as to 25 what you had discovered in terms of why people were
791 coming in -- onto the Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: As part of the awareness, yes. 3 Q: All right. And what did you tell 4 them? 5 A: Told them that there's possibilities 6 that there would be a set time when -- when there would 7 be people coming in to -- to attend ceremonies. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did -- and what was the military's 11 response? 12 A: Well, they -- they -- I guess in 13 anybody is that what they were looking for is that what 14 is the intent and what, you know, what is the outcome 15 going to be, looking at is there going to be, you know, 16 problems with that or, you know, and ours was to, you 17 know, to let them know that there wasn't, and there was 18 just these ceremonies that were going to be taking place. 19 Q: All right. We'd like to make this 20 the next exhibit please, Commissioner. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-274. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-274: Document 7000324 July 13- 25 15/'95 OP Maple, situation
801 report No. 014 from Capt. W. 2 D. Smith, Tactical Commander, 3 Camp Ipperwash 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: And if you would return to Tab 3, 7 which is Exhibit P-272, or Inquiry Document 7000338. 8 Item 2(C) in particular. I'll read from it: 9 "During the past twenty-four (24) hours 10 the following has been determined..." 11 And I should indicate this is a report by 12 the Military for the period July 24 to 26, '95. 13 "...the following has been determined. 14 Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah have been 15 in contact with Glenn George at least 16 three (3) times. All three (3) 17 meetings were positive and the Stoney 18 Point group remains interested in 19 attending a native circle." 20 And we talked about that a little bit 21 earlier, but my question here is, do you recall having 22 approximately three (3) meetings with Glenn George and 23 others by July 25th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you've told us, one (1) of the
811 purposes of the meetings was with respect to the issue of 2 having ceremonies and individuals coming from outside the 3 community to attend. What were the other topics or major 4 topics that were being discussed? 5 A: Again, it's -- it's the well-being of 6 -- of the families. And the -- one of the -- one of the 7 things that they wanted to do was -- requesting, was that 8 they wanted to have workshops for -- for the women, for 9 the ladies, for the grandmas and so part of that 10 discussion was -- was taking place too. 11 And we had brought in some of the clan 12 mothers from my community to -- to meet with them and to 13 -- to set up of how that was going to happen. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: So, that was part of the discussions 16 at that time. 17 Q: And were you also relaying, at least 18 facilitating discussions around concerns that the 19 Military -- sorry, that the environmental assessment had 20 to be done in a certain way and -- and the Military's 21 position on that versus the Stoney Point group's position 22 on that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you just recall for us what, 25 if any, difficulties or concerns there were as between
821 the two (2) organizations with respect to the conduct of 2 an environmental assessment? 3 A: I've only heard what the concerns 4 was. I wasn't involved with -- I knew that that was 5 going to happen. I knew that that's supposed to happen. 6 So that wasn't my thing. And so I heard the concerns and 7 I heard, you know, there was companies that was going to 8 do the -- the cleanup. 9 I heard, you know, rumours and I heard 10 names of that, but I -- I wasn't really into that because 11 I knew that that was going to happen, there was other 12 parties and other people who were going to be doing that. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: So, that wasn't an issue with which 16 you had specific -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- concern? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Or at least involvement I should say? 21 A: Yeah. And, again, in -- whenever we 22 come in to -- to help and to support, we have to look at 23 that. So, that's another -- you know, that's not what my 24 role is. My role is to deal with a crisis, you know, or 25 hopefully to avoid crisis.
831 Q: All right. Okay. 2 A: Okay. So, there are people who -- 3 who were there who, you know, who were addressing to 4 that, to those concerns and hopefully, you know, to be 5 able to resolve that. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do you know who those other persons 9 were? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Did you have -- you indicated you had 12 some discussions with Chief Tom Bressette from time to 13 time, did you have any discussions that were specifically 14 in relation to the -- the advisability or propriety of 15 the occupation by these members of the Stoney Point group 16 of the Camp Ipperwash lands? 17 A: Again, in talking to -- to Tom, there 18 was, I guess, from his, you know, political arena, is 19 that, you know, he says, you know, and that's what he 20 goes by even to this day, is that when he is representing 21 the -- the people of Kettle Point and Stoney Point, 22 that's his role, and then would take a look at, you know, 23 the people of Stoney Point who -- who are there; you 24 know, there's two (2) different entities, two (2) 25 different peoples.
841 And so, again, you know, what we -- I have 2 to be reminded of what my role is, is to be able to give 3 those parties an opportunity to be able to address their 4 concerns and to carry it out. So, in talking with him, 5 yes, we were looking at how to resolve this and how do 6 we, you know, carry on with -- without interfering with 7 their -- or what he has to do. 8 Q: All right. Okay. And in -- in the 9 course of assessing, of course, the needs or -- of the 10 people in terms of what you could do to assist, was one 11 of the needs identified by you the -- evolve around the 12 working relations between the Band Chief and Band Council 13 on the one hand and the Stoney Point group on the other? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And did you -- were you able to take 16 any steps towards trying to facilitate the establishment 17 of a working relationship? 18 A: I believe that we made some headways, 19 you know, and, you know, whether all parties were 20 acceptable to that, but these were the names that came up 21 and that's what I, you know, again, we don't decide as to 22 who that is but these are the names, you know, that -- 23 that are being brought by each party to sit at the table 24 for discussions. 25 Q: All right.
851 A: Yeah. 2 Q: In terms of representatives from the 3 various organizations -- 4 A: Exactly. 5 Q: -- to then talk about the issues that 6 -- that bind them? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: All right. When did you first learn 9 that the Stoney Point group or members from it, moved 10 into the built up area of Camp Ipperwash? 11 A: It was in July. 12 Q: And did you have any advance notice 13 that this event was going to happen on a particular date? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Were you contacted by -- well, 16 let me ask you this first, how did you first find out 17 that -- that individuals had gone into the built-up area? 18 A: I was out west. I believe I was in 19 British Columbia and I was -- when I heard, you know, 20 that there was -- that they were going to be coming in. 21 I heard on the news and, you know, I just -- I didn't 22 know when it was going to happen or how it was going to 23 happen. 24 Q: Do you recall, and perhaps I can help 25 you with your -- do you recall being contacted by a
861 Captain Smith of the Army Base to render assistance with 2 respect to the take over of the built-up area? 3 A: Yes, again Bob is the one that -- 4 that he was in contact with. And so Bob would inform me 5 wherever I was at, and let me know when and how things 6 were happening and how we could be involved and help. 7 Q: Do you recall attending at the built- 8 up area on the date that it was taken over, that is July 9 29th, 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. So, just so that I 12 understand, you said a little bit earlier that you 13 thought you were out west -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- but you didn't have advance notice 16 of the takeover until you heard it had happened, so were 17 you out west on July 29th, '95? 18 A: Not on that one. No, I was home. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And I wonder if you can describe what 22 transpired when you went to the built-up area on July the 23 29th? 24 A: On July 29th, if I can recall -- 25 recollect at that time, was that it was in the evening.
871 It was about eight o'clock or so. Bob called me and said 2 that Captain Smith wanted to have a meeting with us and 3 that the people had come into the camp and he -- he was 4 anticipating that there might be problems and so he asked 5 us if we would -- if we would -- if we could come in. 6 So, we came and I believe it was around 7 nine o'clock or so, maybe a little after, that we met 8 with him and -- with Captain Smith. And -- and he had 9 said, could you talk to the occupiers and see -- we still 10 got this building and another building to -- to evacuate 11 and to take out files and -- and the computer systems and 12 that they had backed up a truck, a semi, to -- to load up 13 these -- they want to get them out of there. 14 And he says, if you can talk to the other 15 side and let them know that we'll be out of here or try 16 be out of here by midnight. 17 And so we said that we would do that. So, 18 then we proceeded to talk to -- to the occupiers and ask 19 if they could allow for the -- for that time -- for them 20 to finish taking out the computers and the filing 21 systems. 22 And they said, sure, no problem. So, that 23 happened. 24 Q: And did you -- did you advise Captain 25 Smith of the -- the response of the occupiers, that they
881 would allow that to happen? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, just -- did you arrive, then, at 4 the built-up area some time after 9:00 p.m. approximately 5 on -- on the 30 -- 29th? 6 A: 29th, yes. 7 Q: And how long did you stay at the 8 built up area on that occasion? 9 A: Until the -- the last truck left. 10 Q: Okay. And was Captain Smith at the 11 built-up area as well? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And when you arrived at 14 the built-up area after you -- and after you spoke with 15 Captain Smith, what did you -- what did you observe was 16 going on around you in terms of the occupiers' activities 17 and events? 18 A: There was a lot of -- people were 19 moving and -- and looking at the buildings as to the size 20 of the families who -- who would be moving in, whether it 21 be temporary or -- or -- so there was a lot of commotion 22 at that time. 23 Q: All right. At approximately what 24 time did the -- did the trucks load -- finish -- complete 25 their job and leave the Camp?
891 A: I would say between 10:30 and 11:00. 2 Q: Okay. And that's approximately when 3 you -- you then left? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And when you reported on the results 6 of your discussions with the occupiers to Captain Smith - 7 - and perhaps I should ask you first, who did you have 8 those conversations with? Who did you ask or relay the 9 Military's requests to? 10 A: The grandmas. 11 Q: Okay. Do you recall any -- any of 12 the grandmas' names in particular? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. What -- what exactly did 15 you advise Captain Smith with respect to the results of 16 your discussions? 17 A: What he wanted to know is that for 18 the safety of his men, was that to be given that 19 opportunity to be able to carry out and to take, you 20 know, whatever was left, was the safety and that's what 21 we did. 22 You know, we -- we informed the grandmas 23 and the families that, you know, could we just not occupy 24 or not go into that area of those two (2) buildings by 25 the gate --
901 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- where they were emptying the 3 building. And they said, No problem. So, that's what we 4 conveyed back to him. 5 Q: So, you advised him that they would 6 facilitate that. Did you also mention to Captain Smith 7 anything about whether or not you observed the occupiers 8 in the possession of any form of firearms? 9 A: There was none. 10 Q: Did you relay that to Captain Smith? 11 A: Yes, we did. 12 Q: I'd like you to go to Tab 5 of your 13 brief. And it's Inquiry Document Number 7000341. 14 And if you would go over to the third 15 page. Again, this is a report by Captain Smith for the 16 period covering July 28 to 30, 1995. And over at page 3, 17 at sub-item I, it indicates that: 18 "At approximately 15:20 hours Captain 19 Smith contacted Bob Antone and Bruce 20 Elijah and requested their assistance 21 in negotiations. They agreed and 22 arrived at the Camp at approximately 23 19:30." 24 And this would be on the day of the 25 occupation, July 29th. I'm wondering if that -- that
911 timeframe refreshes your memory in any way in terms of 2 when you likely first arrived at the Camp? 3 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 4 Q: And at what time do you believe that 5 you arrived at the Camp then? 6 A: Well, again, what I had said earlier 7 was I had said that around 8:00 and here it's 19:30, so 8 that's 6:30 in the evening. Right? 9 Q: Yeah. No, I think -- 10 THE REGISTRAR: 7:30. 11 THE WITNESS: 7:30? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: That's right. All right. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And Item J indicates that, this is a 17 note by Captain Smith, that: 18 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah conducted 19 extensive negotiations and determined 20 the following: 21 1. The Stoney Point group had no 22 intention of leaving." 23 Do you recall whether that was information 24 you found out and conveyed? 25 A: Yes.
921 Q: All right. 2 "2. The Stoney Point group was armed 3 bracket (OPP confirmed this) closed 4 bracket." 5 Do you recall determining this information 6 and conveying it? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And: 9 "3. The Kettle Stony Point Band had no 10 control at all over the Stoney Point 11 group." 12 Do you recall firstly whether you acquired 13 this information or formed that impression? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And secondly, did you convey that to 16 Captain Smith? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Now, you had had some 19 dealings with Captain Smith up to this point? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And this document was authored or 22 appears to have been authored by Captain Smith. 23 Do you have any explanation as to why, or 24 any understanding as to why he would apparently record 25 that you relayed with Mr. Antone that the Stoney Point
931 Group was armed? 2 A: At no given time did we do that, to - 3 - to tell anybody that there were -- there was anybody 4 armed, that the occupiers were armed. 5 Q: And -- and how can you be so certain 6 of that? 7 A: Again, I go by the role in -- in that 8 I work is that I won't be involved unless, you know, if 9 there's weapons involved then I'll step away from it. 10 Q: And do you have, based on your 11 understanding of -- of Captain Smith -- based on your 12 relations with him, do you have any explanation as to why 13 he would appear to write this down and attribute this 14 comment to you? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And Mr. Antone? 17 A: No. I know that in our discussions 18 is that I think those were -- in any situation of the 19 occupiers was that there was always that concern of, are 20 -- are there weapons involved and -- and there -- there 21 never was. I never seen any. 22 Q: All right. I was going to ask you 23 what steps, if any, did you take to ascertain whether or 24 not there were arms at the built-up area on the 29th? 25 A: Again, when -- when we go -- when Bob
941 and I went and talked to the people, those are things 2 that we're looking for, you know, is there or isn't 3 there? And we didn't see any. 4 Q: Thank you. Now, you indicated you 5 left later that evening, you left the built-up area after 6 the trucks removed the equipment and files. 7 Did you return to the built-up area in the 8 following days, but prior to the occupation of the Park 9 on September the 4th? 10 A: As I remember, no. I think I came 11 back probably about two (2) or three (3) days after. 12 Q: Came back two (2) or three (3) days 13 after what? 14 A: After the 29th. 15 Q: So, you did come back? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: To the barracks? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. And -- and what was the 20 purpose of returning to the built-up area then? 21 A: It was to see where -- how and could 22 we assist them in terms of food. 23 Q: All right. And what -- what 24 determinations did you make? 25 A: That they needed some help.
951 Q: Did you render it, or -- 2 A: And -- and so what we do with that is 3 that again, we leave it up to them to make a list as to 4 what would that be. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: So, again, you know, that's as far as 7 I go with that, then that's turned over to, you know, to 8 someone else. 9 Q: All right. Thank you. And just 10 before I pass by this document, I'd like to make this 11 document the next -- the next exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-275, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-275: Document 7000341 July 28- 15 30/'95 OP Maple, situation 16 report No. 026 from Capt. W. 17 D. Smith, Tactical Commander, 18 Camp Ipperwash 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: I'd like to take you next, then, to 22 Tab 45, which is Inquiry Document Number 7000576. 23 And this is a further report, apparently 24 authored by Captain Smith and covers the period July 28th 25 to July 30, 1995. And particularly at item 3(C), it
961 indicates that approximately 15:00 hours on July the 2 30th, 1995, Captain Smith met with Stoney Point Group 3 representatives Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah. 4 Now, first, do you recall having a further 5 meeting with Captain Smith? That would have been the day 6 following the occupation? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You don't recall? Okay. 9 A: No. I know that there was meetings, 10 again -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- but to say on that particular day, 13 no. 14 Q: All right. Fair enough. Do you -- 15 do you recall, then, having a meeting with the Captain 16 after the occupation of the barracks commenced? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And is appropriate to 19 describe you and Mr. Antone as Stoney Point group 20 representatives? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Now, do you recall 23 attending at a meeting at which the following was 24 discussed: 25 "(a) Where the natives were advised
971 that they must appoint a spokesperson 2 to negotiate with the military LO; 3 second, that the natives were advised 4 that they would probably have to begin 5 paying for hydro after August the 1st, 6 1995; that they were advised that the 7 information pamphlets would be prepared 8 and distributed; and that they were 9 advised that the Military would be 10 discussing neutral signs with them in 11 the near future." 12 Do you recall having a meeting that these 13 things were discussed at? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at Item 4(C), 16 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah advised 17 that due to the severe animosity 18 between Kettle and Stony Point Band and 19 the Stoney Point group, they would make 20 a decision on whether or not they would 21 continue to assist with the 22 negotiations. 23 They will advise on their decision at 24 the meeting scheduled for ten o'clock 25 or 10:00 hours on July 31st, 1995."
981 Now, had you observed that there was a 2 degree of animosity between the two (2) entities -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And as a result, did that raise 5 concerns for you in terms of you -- your viability as a 6 negotiator 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: How would you describe your role, 9 then, as a negotiator/facilitator, after the period, in 10 this time period, after the occupation of the barracks? 11 A: Again, what we tried to do is to get 12 all parties to bring them to the table to address to the 13 -- to the many concerns that are there and, again, it's 14 not our position to designate or say who sits at the 15 table. 16 And what we try as much as what we can, 17 especially to the Stoney Point people, because we already 18 know who the representatives will be, with the Kettle, 19 you know, Council, Kettle Point Council, the Band 20 Council. 21 But it wasn't clear as to who the 22 spokespersons would be for the Stoney Point people, so we 23 advised them at that time that they need to -- they need 24 to be able to delegate and designate people who are going 25 to be sitting at that table.
991 Q: All right. 2 A: So -- 3 Q: And was your role, then, as a 4 negotiator increasing, staying the same, or lessening in 5 this timeframe? 6 A: It was lessening at that time, for 7 me. 8 Q: All right. And ultimately, did you - 9 - what was your decision with respect to the ongoing 10 viability of you as a -- as negotiator? 11 A: What -- when I made my report to my 12 Council, I -- I informed them, I think, that my role in 13 this was coming to an end. That doesn't mean that it 14 stops. Again, there'll be another -- other peoples who 15 will be appointed to that. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: So -- 18 Q: But your role, at least -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- came or was coming to an end at -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- this point? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Commissioner, I'd like to make this 25 the next exhibit, please.
1001 THE REGISTRAR: P-276, your Honour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-276: Document 7000576 July 28- 5 30/'95 OP Maple, situation 6 report No. 027 from Capt. W. 7 D. Smith, Tactical Commander, 8 Camp Ipperwash 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Were you provided with any advance 12 notice of the intention to occupy the Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park on -- on September the 4th, 1995? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And over the course of late August or 16 in early September of 1995, where were you? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I believe at that time that's when 21 Gustafson Lake was kicking off, too, so right around that 22 -- that time, that's where I was. 23 Q: So, in British Columbia? 24 A: British Columbia. 25
1011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Were you present at the initial 4 occupation of the Park on September the 4th? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And were -- did you attend at the 7 Park on either of September 4th, 5th, or 6th, 1995? 8 A: I believe so, yeah. 9 Q: At the Park? 10 A: I was there after. 11 Q: After which event? 12 A: The shooting incident. 13 Q: All right. But, not before? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You were at -- in Gustafson Lake? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. At anytime over the course of 18 the three (3) day occupation of the Park prior to the 19 shooting incident that occurred in the evening, did 20 anyone from the Ontario Provincial Police or the Military 21 or the Kettle and Stony Point Band or the Stoney Point 22 group contact you or attempt to contact you, to your 23 knowledge, with a view to seeking your assistance for 24 negotiations or other purposes? 25 A: Yes.
1021 Q: When -- firstly, who -- who asked you 2 to come? Or, I should say, who asked you for your 3 assistance? 4 A: When I got back my brother Howard 5 informed me of the phone calls and the people who had 6 called and -- and asking for -- for my assistance. You 7 know, my thing, and I had to talk to Bob too because to - 8 - to hear -- and at that time, for reasons why, I don't 9 think he was around either at that time. 10 So, there were these messages. And so I 11 called that morning, right after the shooting, and I 12 called and -- and I believe I called the Band office at - 13 - at Kettle Point and talked to Tom and Bonnie Bressette, 14 and they asked me if I could come in. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: So, they told me a little bit about, 17 other than what I heard on -- on the news, and told me 18 which route to take because there will be roadblocks, 19 so... 20 Q: All right. Now, just before we 21 proceed to that and so that I'm clear as to the timing of 22 these messages and phone calls, were the messages left 23 requesting your assistance before or after the shooting? 24 A: After. 25 Q: All right. So, had anyone called you
1031 for your assistance prior to the shooting? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Had you been asked for assistance by 4 any of those entities, the OPP, the Kettle and Stony 5 Point Band, the Stoney Point group or the Military; had 6 any of those entities asked for your assistance, would 7 you have come? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Why is that? 10 A: Again, I guess we -- you know, when I 11 was saying earlier, is that when you -- when you're asked 12 and -- and I had said earlier, is that mine is to avoid 13 bloodshed; that's what my role is. And that's any side, 14 whether it's our side or the other side. 15 And how do we do that when our people are 16 involved with that, because we all know who has the 17 bigger guns and we all know who has more guns and -- if 18 that was going to be. And so how do you do that. 19 And so I'd have to take a look at each 20 situation and see, you know, where and how can I do that 21 to avoid or to see if we can dispel, I guess, you know, 22 the situation, the crisis. 23 Q: And you -- you indicated that you 24 picked up the messages when you were -- where were you 25 when you picked up the messages, what city or province
1041 were you in? 2 A: I had gotten back from out west -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- from British Columbia and I was in 5 Toronto when I called home and got these messages. 6 Q: All right. And would that have been 7 during the -- the morning hours of September the 7th 8 then? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Had you just -- 11 A: Was that the day after the shooting? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: The late hours of the -- the 6th is 15 when the activity took place. And upon receiving the 16 messages you indicated that you contacted Chief Bressette 17 and Bonnie Bressette? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And where did you contact them? 20 A: I called them from home, from my 21 place to the Band office. 22 Q: All right. And as a result of 23 conversations with them, did you travel to the -- the 24 Kettle Point and Camp Ipperwash area? 25 A: Yes.
1051 Q: All right. And where did you go 2 first? 3 A: To the Band Office. 4 Q: All right. And what were you advised 5 at the Band Office? 6 A: They informed me of what had taken 7 place and as much as what they could do at that -- at 8 that given time, and they really didn't know who was -- 9 where it was or who it was in -- in the Camp. 10 And so I told them, I says, at that time I 11 said, I need to go in and talk to the group within inside 12 the Camp and see if, you know, what was happening there. 13 Q: All right. And who was it that you 14 were in discussion with at the Band Office? 15 A: The Band Council. 16 Q: The Band Council? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Was the Chief there as 19 well? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what did they tell you had 22 happened? What was -- how was that relayed to you? 23 A: That the shooting had happened and 24 there were -- there was other than Dudley who was -- who 25 was shot and -- and that they were trying to get the
1061 reports back from the hospital because there was other 2 people who were also injured. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: You know, so nobody really knew all 5 of what that was at that point and at that time they were 6 waiting for information to come in. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: So they, you know, they still didn't 9 get the whole picture. 10 Q: All right. And then after receiving 11 that information, you indicated that they took you what - 12 - told you what routes to go to -- 13 A: What routes to go. 14 Q: What routes to go to the -- to the -- 15 to the Army Camp? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did you proceed to go to the Army 18 Camp? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you have anyone with you? 21 A: My brother Howard. 22 Q: All right. Now, on your way to -- 23 from the Band Office to the Army Camp did you go through 24 any police points or checks? 25 A: Yes.
1071 Q: All right. And what transpired at 2 those -- at the check? 3 A: We -- we had told them who we were 4 and what our mission was and they were aware of it and so 5 they let us pass. 6 Q: All right. They were aware of your - 7 - who you were and -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- what your mission? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you know -- do you know how they 12 were aware of that, the police? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And do you -- you recall 15 approximately what time it was that you actually went 16 through the police check? 17 A: The first one coming up on Highway 21 18 off the 401, about halfway between the 401 -- I mean was 19 it the 402? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 402. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, the 402 -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 403? 23 THE WITNESS: -- in -- in Forest. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah. 25 THE WITNESS: -- about halfway is that we
1081 came to the first police check. And, roughly, if I can 2 remember, it would be about eight o'clock in the morning 3 -- 8:30, something like that. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: I wonder if you would go to Tab 12, 7 please, Inquiry Document Number 2002984. It's entitled, 8 Command Post Communication Centre Scribe Notes for 9 September 7, 1995. 10 And these are the -- the Ontario 11 Provincial Police scribe notes and if you'll look at page 12 2 about halfway down at 9:04 a.m. it's indicated that 13 J.M. -- I don't know who that is, but: 14 "J.M. received information that Bruce 15 Elijah is at 21 Highway and Thompson 16 Road. He is here to mediate." 17 So, does that refresh your memory at all 18 with respect to the approximate time you likely went 19 through that police -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- point. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. And then if you go over, 24 please, to -- and I should ask you, was that at 25 approximately nine o'clock, then?
1091 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And if you proceed for 3 two (2) pages down to the time period of 10:44 a.m. at 4 the top of the page, it's indicated that: 5 "B.D. advises Howard and Bruce Elijah 6 from Oneida have permission to pass 7 through checkpoints to mediate." 8 Now, do you know what -- by 10:44 a.m. 9 were you already in the Army Camp or had there -- 10 A: No, we had met with the Band council 11 prior to that, and so we were on our way from the Band 12 council at Kettle Point to the military base -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- to the Camp. 15 Q: And so at what time do you think you 16 arrived, approximately, at Camp Ipperwash at the -- the 17 Army camp? 18 A: It would be close to that. It was 19 before noon, it was still a.m. 20 Q: All right, so the late morning? 21 A: Yeah, late morning. 22 Q: And when you arrived at the Army camp 23 base, what did you do? 24 A: We tried to see and meet people who 25 could inform us of what had taken place and if there was
1101 any other injured parties. That was our main concern. 2 Q: All right. What, if anything, did 3 you learn in that respect? 4 A: Again, commotion, you know, there's a 5 lot of people were very upset at what had happened. And 6 ours was to try to meet with people and to be able to 7 give them some kind of a -- a feeling that there was 8 something that's going to take place to ease the tension. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: So that was our role. And the -- the 11 thing at that time was that there was people from Kettle 12 Point who were marching to -- to give support to the 13 camp. So there was a lot of people that was out there -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- on the highway. 16 Q: And were there any others in the Army 17 camp aside from yourself and your brother and the 18 occupiers? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And so your first priority was to de- 21 escalate the anxiety, then? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And did you have any communications 24 with -- with either the police or the Band office, Band 25 council while you were at Camp Ipperwash?
1111 A: Yes. 2 Q: Can you tell me what -- what 3 communications you had and with whom? 4 A: One of the first things that -- 5 again, in coming in was that what was my role, what was 6 my role there? All sides are saying, you know, do 7 something. And so my first role of that is -- was -- was 8 asking the OPP to back off and go back a few miles to 9 security checks. 10 Q: Do you recall who you had that 11 conversation with, from the OPP? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: Do you recall what the response was 14 to your request? 15 A: Favourable. 16 Q: All right, so the police agreed that 17 they would -- that they would back off, if you will, in 18 terms of the -- 19 A: They would. 20 Q: -- parameter? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And then did you -- what 23 was your next priority? 24 A: After that one was, there was people 25 that was designated to help with the families with who
1121 the injured parties, and then my role was now to 2 establish, again, all parties to be informed of, and me, 3 to know what's going on, to establish a security for all 4 parties. 5 And so my next role to that was to get the 6 -- the native police, First Nations police to -- and we 7 had talked about it, because at that time, at the Band 8 council there was many phone calls that was coming in 9 from First Nation communities across Ontario as to how 10 they would give support, too. 11 So those were the things that we were -- 12 that I knew and is that how -- how can that be done? 13 Q: All right. And did you establish, 14 then, a -- a security protocol for the area? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: When did that occur? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: If not that day, it would have been 21 the following day. 22 Q: So September 7th or 8th -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- of '95? And that involved the use 25 of First Nations police officers?
1131 A: Right. 2 Q: And from which communities, do you 3 recall? 4 A: No, I can't recall. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: There's -- there's too many. 7 Q: Fair enough. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And were any steps taken by you or on 10 your behalf to -- to secure the area in which the -- the 11 confrontation had occurred? 12 A: We had to -- I think I had asked 13 where the shooting had taken place and that there was 14 somebody that was going to escort me to that -- to that 15 particular place to show me. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And so that -- that happened. 18 Q: When -- what day did that happen? 19 A: I believe it was that afternoon -- 20 Q: The -- 21 A: -- early part of that afternoon. 22 Q: The 7th? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And at that point did you take any 25 steps to try to secure that area?
1141 A: Yes. 2 Q: Prior to that, was the -- had the 3 area been left unsecured? 4 A: I don't believe so. There was people 5 there but, again, I don't know who they were accountable 6 to. Part of what I do is when I come in I say, I want to 7 know who's who -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- you know, and what their roles is. 10 Q: Well, to your knowledge, was there 11 any attempt, prior to your arrival in the afternoon of 12 the 7th, to preserve the area, to not, you know, not 13 encroach on the area and -- and remove evidence -- 14 A: Once I learned of that, that was my 15 role. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: That was my role, was to secure that 18 area. 19 Q: All right. So that didn't happen 20 until the -- the afternoon of the 7th? 21 A: On my part, no. 22 Q: All right. And did you also 23 establish a First Nation investigation team? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what was the purpose of a -- the
1151 First Nation Investigation Team? 2 A: From my understanding, was that there 3 was supposed to be a special unit that was supposed to 4 come in to do the investigation and it was going a little 5 bit too slow. So part of what I do, again, is that to -- 6 to hasten the process, is that, you know, let's bring in 7 people who can do that. 8 Q: When you say there was a special unit 9 that was to have come in, which unit are you referring 10 to? 11 A: The OPP. 12 Q: All right. The OPP or the -- or the 13 SIU? 14 A: SIU. 15 Q: The Special Investigations Unit? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you. And what led you 18 to believe that that process was not happening quickly 19 enough? 20 A: There's all the circumstances, again, 21 you have to do an evaluation in terms of who's who and 22 what's working and what's happening. And I wasn't 23 hearing that part. I was, you know, I was informed on 24 it, that there would have -- you know, that there would 25 be, but I didn't see any evidence of that taking place.
1161 Q: All right. When did you assemble 2 your First Nations Investigation Team? 3 A: I believe it was about the second day 4 after the shooting. 5 Q: So likely the 8th of September -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- or thereabouts? 8 A: Something like that, yeah. 9 Q: All right. And how did you choose 10 the members of the First Nations Investigation Team? 11 A: We take a look within our group as to 12 who has that experience. And, of course, you know, then 13 who was in the military because they know how to do that, 14 veterans within our group, who's been in a police force 15 or is on a police force, of who can do that. So we look, 16 you know, again, we look to see who can we find that can 17 do that. 18 Q: And who were the members who you 19 selected to be on this First Nations Investigation Team? 20 A: We had called in Chico, Chico Ralf, 21 who was -- was a former OPP, to do that. And he had 22 informed us and told us that he was trained for that. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: So we said, Go ahead. 25 Q: And did you delegate to him then the
1171 responsibility of who else would be on the team and how 2 the investigation would be -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- actually carried out? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. And did you -- did you 7 play any role in the actual carrying out of the 8 investigation? 9 A: To some extent, yeah. Again, just to 10 keep, you know, on top of what was happening and, again, 11 who the people were that was chosen to do that. 12 Could we take a break? Yeah, I need a 13 break. 14 Q: Oh, I'm sorry. Certainly. May we 15 have a short recess? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. All 17 right. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for five (5) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:50 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:55 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
1181 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're almost 5 at our lunch break, right? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I appreciate that. 7 Perhaps we could go until -- would it be all right to go 8 until about 12:30? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you 10 finish -- will you be finished if you go to 12:30? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? Well 13 then let's break at 12:15 then. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. We'll break 15 at -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 17 out for lunch today, our staff, as you know. So let's 18 break at 12:15. 19 If you're not going to finish -- if you 20 could finish then I say we'd stay -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, no, I -- all 22 right. I mean, I will be certainly finished by the early 23 afternoon, but that's -- that's fine. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then let's 25 break at 12:15.
1191 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, thank you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Now, we understand that Mr. Ralf 5 arrived at the camp at around September the 15th, which 6 is a few days after these events and I'm just wondering 7 whether you can advise us as to what steps were taken, 8 prior to the 15th of September or thereabouts, at least, 9 to -- to secure the -- the areas that were in question, 10 the sandy parking lot and the MNR parking lot and that -- 11 that area. 12 Do you know who was primarily in charge of 13 -- of the day to day operation there? 14 A: Offhand, no. 15 Q: All right. Now, in relation to the - 16 - the First Nation investigation team, did you have a 17 meeting with members of the OPP and others to discuss the 18 role and function of your First Nation investigation team 19 before that investigation actually started? 20 A: I know that there was talks and I 21 have to inform all parties as to what I'll be doing, or 22 what I'm doing. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: So that they're aware of it. And as 25 we proceed, you know, day to days to, you know, to give
1201 them that report and so there was a lot of things that 2 was happening in that first week. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: I was kind of given the opportunity 5 to be able to establish some kind of a patrolling. They 6 had said how many days would that take and I said, Well, 7 you know, I'll take as many days that needs to be, you 8 know, to establish that. I'll work at it until I've 9 established that. 10 And somewhere, I don't know who said this, 11 but they had said no more than a -- than a week. I took 12 twenty-one (21) days. 13 Q: Sorry? 14 A: I said I took twenty-one (21) days. 15 Q: Twenty-one (21) days in -- 16 A: To establish. 17 Q: The security? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And just going back to 20 the -- the First Nation investigation team, then, what 21 was the main role of the investigation team, which I take 22 is -- is different from the security -- 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: -- that they -- 25 A: Yeah, it's different. What we had to
1211 do was to take a look at what had taken place; who -- who 2 did the shooting and what side did the shooting and where 3 were they camped out and where -- where were they set up. 4 So they kind of walked me through that. 5 When I say, "they," is that the people who had been 6 assigned to -- to secure that area. 7 And so we went across the road there where 8 the -- the special or the special forces were or the 9 police OPP was and kind of walked through there to the 10 findings that we found there and then at that time, too, 11 is that I was -- what I had seen on -- in the news, the 12 evening news was that there was a statement given by the 13 news people that the beach houses were being looted and 14 possibility of maybe burning it down. 15 And -- and, you know, I wanted to -- I 16 asked if that was so, you know, has there been any 17 buildings being broken into and looted and, you know, if 18 there was any damages to the homes. I says we need to 19 dispel that. We need to get the information out there. 20 So, I again, established another group to 21 come in to be able to video and -- and take pictures and 22 whatever it took to be able to -- and I wanted that 23 information -- I think we had -- I -- I had asked 24 someone, I says, Can we trust somebody in the media to be 25 able to assist us in this process.
1221 So we can get that out there that evening 2 and put it on the evening news that there is no buildings 3 being burnt down, that there is no buildings being 4 looted, because that's -- you know, that's part of what 5 the media does is that they create the situation beyond 6 what it is. 7 And I'm in that role of to say that I'm in 8 control of, that the people who are doing -- who are 9 working with me is to see to it that those buildings and 10 those places are -- are safe. 11 Q: All right. All right. And, in fact, 12 was there videotaped footage taken in relation to the -- 13 the beach houses and -- and the surrounding areas? 14 A: There was. 15 Q: All right. And just before we get to 16 that, I want to draw your attention to Tab 13, which is 17 Inquiry Document Number 2002380. 18 And this is -- appears to be minutes of a 19 meeting held on Saturday, September the 9th, 1995 and at 20 the meeting, were yourself, Marvin Connors, Miles 21 Bressette, Jim Potts and Paul Trivett and first of all, 22 do you recall that there was a meeting in or around that 23 time which these individuals were at? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And what was the purpose
1231 of this meeting? 2 A: Again, to inform and let people know 3 as to what -- what I was doing. And so what we did was 4 to establish a protocol as to, you know, a set time when 5 we would meet with them as the concerns other than what 6 I'm doing. 7 Q: All right. And when you say, "With 8 them" who do you mean? Who are you referring to? 9 A: It means that all the parties -- 10 Q: All the -- 11 A: -- the -- the Band Council of Kettle 12 Point, the representatives of the OPP and the Indian 13 police -- First Nation Police to let them know what was 14 going on and, of course, the people at Stoney Point. 15 Q: Now, I note that you are identified 16 as a Oneida warrior war chief. Is that an appropriate 17 designation? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you know who it is who authored 20 these minutes? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Marvin -- 23 A: I want to find out, too. 24 Q: Now, Marvin Connors is listed as a 25 warrior and three (3) year Vietnam veteran. What role
1241 did Marvin Connors play in -- in this matter? 2 A: He was one (1) of the top assistants 3 in -- in the patrolling. 4 Q: So, with respect to the security 5 detachment -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that you had set up? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. And Miles Bressette is 10 noted as a member of the Kettle Point First Nation 11 Police; is that right? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And what role was he playing there? 14 A: He -- at this point in time, other 15 than until the First Nations Police come in from other 16 communities, he would be temporarily be in that position 17 of taking a lead role, so that when they did come in, he 18 would be reporting -- they would -- they would be 19 reporting to him. 20 Q: All right. So, he'd be like the 21 supervisor, coordinator of the -- 22 A: That's right. Yeah. 23 Q: -- other police from the First Nation 24 communities? 25 A: That's right.
1251 Q: All right. And then Jim Potts and 2 Paul Trivett, what organization were they from? 3 A: Jim Potts, I believe was with the 4 OPP. 5 Q: And with the First Nations Police 6 Unit within the OPP? 7 A: There was another fellow that was the 8 head of the First Nations Police; I'm trying to remember 9 his name -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- so. 12 Q: All right. But -- 13 A: But, yeah, Jim -- Jim was one of the 14 ones that we, you know, was -- that we were talking to. 15 Q: All right. And then Paul Trivett, 16 did you understand him to be with the OPP? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And so you had 19 representation from the OPP and from the Kettle Point 20 Police as well as yourself and someone from the security, 21 internal security detachment that you had organized -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- at this meeting on the 9th? And 24 at this meeting you discussed, amongst other things, a 25 protocol of how the investigation by your First Nations
1261 team would take place? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, for example, about halfway down 4 it says: 5 "In the morning of September the 10th 6 they will videotape all damage done, 7 cottages, ATV's, surveillance van and 8 St. John's van, and all equipment will 9 be brought by First Nations people to 10 the end of the Army Road and Highway 21 11 by noon and from there it can be towed, 12 and that only First Nation constables 13 allowed in this area, not OPP." 14 So were these things that you discussed 15 with the OPP --- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- at this meeting? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did they voice any -- what was 20 their response to -- to your suggestion? 21 A: Favourable. 22 Q: All right. I note, just for the 23 record, that this is already Exhibit P-217, I believe. 24 All right. 25 Now, you indicated that -- that beach
1271 homes and the surrounding areas were in fact videotaped; 2 was that pursuant to the plan that you outlined here at 3 the meeting? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And were you present for any of the 6 videotape? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Did you, in fact, go to some 9 beach homes and -- and tour inside, look inside them and 10 around them to see if there was any damage, et cetera, 11 done? 12 A: All three (3) buildings. 13 Q: When you say all three (3) buildings, 14 had -- had particular buildings been identified to you as 15 buildings that were potentially at risk? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And who had identified those 18 buildings to you? 19 A: It was somebody from the Camp, I 20 can't recall who that was, but those were the ones that 21 was in question. Like I say, that was, you know, saying 22 that those would be the ones I was coming across in the 23 news in that evening or the night before, that there was 24 some damages to that. So I went through it quickly to 25 see, you know, if there -- if there was any damages to
1281 the house or to the homes, and there wasn't. 2 And so, again, I left it up to the people 3 who -- who would videotape and take the time to do that. 4 Q: Now, where were these particular 5 beach homes located? 6 A: They'd be the first buildings that 7 would be from -- going from east to west, up where the 8 shooting had taken place. 9 Q: All right. So adjacent -- 10 A: Along -- yeah, along the beach. 11 Q: Along the beach. And -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- is it adjacent to the sandy 14 parking lot and East Parkway Drive? 15 A: That's right, yeah. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. We are going 17 to show you now some recorded footage. It's 18 approximately twenty-three (23) minutes, for the record. 19 Now, I'm wondering if I should do this after the break. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 21 if you want to show a video, we'll watch the whole video, 22 we're not going to break in the middle of it. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Would you like to 24 start that now, Commissioner? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well --
1291 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Or after? Because I'm 2 going to have some questions and there will be 3 commentary, I expect. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then maybe 5 it would be a better time to break now and then do it all 6 together. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that might be 8 appropriate. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Mr. 10 Elijah, we're going to break for lunch now. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 13 done? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were. 16 Okay. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. The next thing 18 will be the videotape. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 21 adjourned until 1:25. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 12:10 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 1:31 p.m. 25
1301 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, 6 Commissioner. Just before the break we were about to 7 play the -- some of the at footage which you -- of that 8 taken by the First Nation Aboriginal Team -- 9 Investigation Team. And what it's entitled is, First 10 Nation Investigation Team; it's Number 1 of 2. And I'd 11 ask Ms. Waddilove to put that on. 12 13 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Mr. Elijah, what we'll do is we'll 17 watch this video together, as we are now, and I'll ask 18 you to provide a little bit of commentary. Perhaps we 19 can start out with what that is in the image now? 20 A: This is an area where supposedly the 21 police were camped out, which is across the road from the 22 cottages. And there's a -- a park in the area, back in 23 there. And we just kind of walked through that real 24 quickly as what was pointed out to me at that time of 25 maybe where the -- the police was -- had set up, and
1311 taking a look at the trailer. 2 Q: All right. And I might just add that 3 I'm actually not doing anything to the face of it but 4 this is just the quality of the tape that we have. 5 Do you recall who was taking the videotape 6 footage, who the cameraman was? 7 A: We had asked -- Gord Peterson had 8 showed up and we had asked -- I had asked him to come 9 with me and that he be the one that's responsible to show 10 the footage later on to the news media. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: So, he was there. There was five (5) 13 or six (6) other people who were around at that time. I 14 can't remember all their names. 15 Q: All right. Okay. Then I'll proceed 16 with the -- the tape here, and I believe that we're 17 looking at the interior of the -- the van. 18 19 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 20 21 Q: It appears that the windshield is 22 cracked; is that -- is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED)
1321 Q: And I'm hearing a voice; do you 2 recognize that voice? 3 A: That is Ben. 4 Q: Ben Pouget? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 8 9 Q: And there is Mr. Pouget, I believe, 10 that was just shown? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Do you recall what this bill was? 13 Did you see it? 14 A: Yeah. It was a receipt that was 15 purchased -- a purchase of liquor. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: So, I told him, I says, Keep that in 18 a safe place and document it and fill him in. 19 Q: And where did -- were you there when 20 that was found? 21 A: No. It had already been found. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Thank you. 25
1331 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: I'll just note for the record that 4 the shot of the -- the receipt was at approximately 3:15 5 of the two (2) minutes and fifteen (15) seconds. 6 7 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 8 9 Q: And it appears there's graffiti 10 that's been affixed to side of the police van. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And a sticker; do you recognize that 13 sticker? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No. Okay. 16 17 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 18 19 Q: Now, would it appear to you that the 20 police van here has been vandalized? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did you have any knowledge as to 23 who vandalized the van? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
1341 2 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 3 4 Q: All right. I'm going to fast forward 5 to the next scene. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right. And now we're at 10 approximately five (5) minutes and fifty (50) seconds 11 into the tape and it appears to be an image of a St. 12 John's ambulance van. 13 Can you tell us where that was found? 14 A: It was still within the Park. It 15 wasn't too far away from where the police van was at, and 16 there -- from what it was explained to me was that when 17 the police left the area, they left in a hurry and so in 18 some cases, the vehicles got stuck and other cases, I 19 would assume, were just -- I'm -- I'm just guessing now 20 is that they either couldn't find the keys or find the 21 person who had the keys to the vehicles. 22 And so their thing was again, pointing out 23 to me as you had said, is that, you know, was -- do I 24 know or who wrecked the vehicles? 25 I don't know. You know, who and when that
1351 happened -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: In most cases what -- when -- you 4 know, when people leave their vehicles behind they make 5 sure that no-one else can use it. 6 Q: All right. But, were you able to 7 make any investigations in that respect or are you 8 speculating? 9 A: No, that's -- that was -- that's not 10 my department. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And do you know approximately when 14 this video was shot? 15 A: I believe it was the day after. 16 Q: The day after? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Dud -- 19 A: The shooting. 20 Q: The -- well was it -- was it before 21 this -- 22 A: Two (2) days -- 23 Q: -- meeting of September the 10th in 24 which -- 25 A: It was before --
1361 Q: The 9th, I should say. 2 A: Yeah, yeah. Before -- before the 3 September 10th. 4 Q: Okay. Now we have in front of us an 5 image of yellow tape with OPP line on it. Can you tell 6 us where that was found? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 11 12 Q: And now coming into view, can you 13 describe what this is? 14 A: It was a communications center and, 15 again, you know, it says St. -- St. John's ambulance. 16 That's not what it's for. 17 Q: All right. And for the record, the 18 side of the vehicle said St. John's ambulance brigade. 19 And did you have a chance to go inside that vehicle? 20 A: I looked inside real quick. 21 Q: And where was it located when you saw 22 it? 23 A: Still in the Park. 24 Q: In the Park or the parking lot? 25 A: Parking -- parking lot.
1371 Q: And which parking lot was that? 2 A: The one across from the cottages in 3 that corner where the police was set up. 4 Q: All right. What we've been calling - 5 - referring to as the Ministry of Natural Resources 6 parking lot? 7 A: Yeah. Yeah. 8 Q: All right. Thank you. And when you 9 say it wasn't a St. John's ambulance but rather was a 10 communications centre; what formed the basis of your 11 conclusion? 12 A: I'm only going by what St. John's 13 Ambulance is supposed to be. It's supposed to be a 14 medical unit that, in certain situations, that that's 15 what it's for is to attend to if there was anybody, you 16 know, with any injuries. 17 I didn't know that there was set up to be 18 a communications centre. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: So, you know, St. John's Ambulance is 21 into communication then that's another field that I 22 wasn't aware of. 23 Q: All right. Okay. And we're 24 continuing on with the image. It appears right now. 25 It's a close up of the side of the Brigade vehicle and
1381 perhaps I'll fast forward a little bit. 2 3 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 4 5 Q: Now, the camera person is walking 6 away from the St. John's Ambulance Brigade vehicle. 7 8 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 Q: Do you recognize the voice on that? 11 No. All right. 12 Now, it appears that they're doing a 13 panoramic of the MNR Parking Lot; is that fair? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And there's a van in the background; 16 do you know which van that was? 17 A: I think that that was the police one, 18 that particular one. I'm only guessing now. Again, in 19 this particular -- this particular scene of -- of that's 20 not my department, or that's not the thing that I'm 21 involved in with. 22 My thing was the buildings. 23 Q: Okay, now -- 24 A: They -- but, they wanted me to see 25 this just, you know, to let me know that there was other
1391 things that need to be looked at. And my thing was to 2 say that there was somebody designated to do that. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And that's what they did. 5 Q: Okay. We seem to be moving on now to 6 a different image. Can you -- 7 A: That particular building is close to 8 the park and, kind of, sits back in. So we took a quick 9 look at that. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And I think the people who were 12 living in that part, they were still there or in and out. 13 14 Q: Okay. And we're looking at a house 15 of some sort? 16 A: I believe this one here is one of the 17 houses that -- that was in question. There's three (3) - 18 - there's three (3) houses that we need to take a look 19 at. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And by this time there was other 22 group -- or the Indian Police had come in with their own 23 radio. So, you know -- 24 Q: For the record, this starts at about 25 eleven (11) minutes and fifty (50) seconds on the tape.
1401 So, do you recognize the -- the police officer who has 2 the camera? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I mean, I recognize the person but I 6 don't know what their name is. 7 Q: Okay. Fair enough. 8 A: What his name is. 9 Q: We'll proceed with the tape then. 10 And if you could just give us a bit of a commentary here. 11 Were you here present? 12 A: I was. I think you'll will see me. 13 There I am. Right there. 14 Q: There you are in the red jacket and 15 the jeans? 16 A: Yeah. Yeah. 17 Q: And who is that with the white 18 jacket? 19 A: I believe that's Gord Peters. 20 21 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 22 23 Q: And what's being shot right now? 24 A: We're taking a look at -- to see if 25 there was anything taken or broken or -- and I was
1411 telling them that what they had to do is make a list if 2 there is anything broken or if there -- you know, that we 3 could contact the owner of the building and get them to 4 do an inventory in terms of, you know, what was -- what 5 was in the building or if there was anything that was 6 broken, if there was anything that was missing. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 10 11 Q: And is that the First Nations police 12 officer? 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 16 17 Q: Now, I note that the door there 18 appeared to be unlocked and you were going to lock it; is 19 that right? 20 A: Yeah. All we needed was one (1) 21 entrance to -- to the place. When there's too many doors 22 that are open, you know -- again, for security reasons. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And to go through, real briefly, with 25 all of the three (3) buildings, there was very little if
1421 any damage was done. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: You know, I think one (1) of the -- 4 Q: Sorry. 5 A: -- this particular building that 6 we're looking at here, there's another -- there's another 7 entrance, and I think that the door was -- was -- the 8 door jam was broken. 9 Q: All right. And I think we'll get to 10 that. Now, just for the record, this was identified as 11 Cottage Number 3. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Had you been provided with particular 14 cottage -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- numbers? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. 19 20 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 21 22 Q: All right. And now you're proceeding 23 to -- you're proceeding to a second cottage; is that... 24 25 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED)
1431 Q: And, again, Mr. Peters and yourself 2 are -- are in the image there and the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- First Nations police officer? 5 A: We will look at the inside and the 6 outside, see if there's any windows or any doors broken. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: And there wasn't. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: So we're -- we're trying to -- I'm 11 trying to find, like, if there's a break-in or if there's 12 any -- you know, that's what I'm looking for. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I didn't find anything. 15 Q: All right. Let's proceed then with 16 the interior of Cottage Number 2. 17 18 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 19 20 Q: And perhaps I'll fast-forward through 21 the -- this part of the search, but if there's anything 22 there that you want to comment on, let me know. 23 A: Again, just to -- to let people know 24 that the reason why we -- I thought it was important on 25 this one, again, is that in the news media the -- the day
1441 before was saying that there was some looting. There was 2 breaking down of buildings and there was damages and 3 there was maybe even possibility of burning, you know, 4 some buildings. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: And there wasn't. 7 Q: Okay. So let's proceed. Now, we're 8 at the outside of the cottage? 9 A: And, again, what we wanted to do was 10 to -- to contact the owners of -- of these buildings and 11 make -- make -- let them know that there was very little 12 if any damage and that if a door -- if any repairs to be 13 done, I believe, at some point, that one (1) of the 14 representatives from the Band Council of Kettle Point had 15 said that they would come and repair if there was any 16 damages being done. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And to your knowledge were the owners 20 of the cottages contacted that you went into? 21 A: As far as I know. Again, that wasn't 22 -- I knew that, you know, we had said that that's what we 23 wanted to do to let them know. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: And so, I'm sure that that was
1451 carried out. 2 3 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 4 5 Q: And right now it looks like we're 6 looking at a panoramic shot outside of the cottage and 7 now we're into the next cottage or coming out of the 8 cottage? There you are. This is, I believe, the next 9 cottage? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It's at about nineteen (19) minutes 12 and thirty (30) seconds or thereabouts in the tape. 13 14 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 A: I think with this one, the third and 17 the last building that we were -- that was in question 18 was that I took a peek inside and that was about it and 19 that's when I left. 20 Q: Okay. So, you didn't go through this 21 -- this building? 22 A: Not the total thing. Because if 23 there was anything that -- that I needed to see, they 24 would let me know. 25 Q: All right. And is this the cottage
1461 to which the door was broken? 2 A: I can't remember. But I know that it 3 was one of these buildings. There we go. Yeah, that was 4 the one. 5 6 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 7 8 Q: Now, you're still in this image -- 9 A: That's me. 10 Q: -- is that fair? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yes. And now you're going outside to 13 the beach in front of the cottage area? 14 15 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 16 17 A: The vehicle or the truck that you see 18 in the back was that -- I -- I didn't know who that was. 19 And so, again, I don't know, might have been the owner 20 or, you know, but it, kind of, when you're securing an 21 area and if you don't know who it is then we want -- then 22 I want to know who that was. 23 Q: All right. And did you find out or? 24 A: It was brought to my attention that 25 it was somebody from the community, curious I guess.
1471 Q: Okay. All right. So let's just see 2 the balance of this footage now. We're towards the end 3 of it. 4 5 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 Q: Now, is that the -- is that the 8 camera person? Did you recognize that person? 9 A: Yeah, again it was one of the police 10 officers -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- the native police First Nation 13 police officer. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: And do you recognize -- and that's 19 the end of the -- the video. Commissioner, I'd like to 20 make this the next exhibit, please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-277. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-277: First Nation Investigative 25 Team DVD, Video footage
1481 September '95 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Mr. Elijah, did you make any notes or 5 keep any records with respect to the results of the First 6 Nation investigation? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Who was in charge, if anyone, of 9 documenting the investigation? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: The First Nation investigation? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: The First Nation team. 17 A: That was Chico. 18 Q: Chico Ralph? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you receive a verbal report 21 from Mr. Ralph with respect to his findings and 22 conclusions? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Can you summarize the key findings 25 and conclusions of the First Nation investigation team as
1491 reported to you? 2 A: What was interesting to find out was 3 the amount of shells that was left behind, where the 4 shooting took place. There was a lot. 5 Q: And why was that surprising in your 6 view? 7 A: Well, you know, the -- what they're 8 trying to do, what they were saying was that there was 9 shooting from the people within the Park and so I wanted 10 to find that shell or those shells. I'm assuming that 11 there would be and there wasn't. 12 Q: How do you know there weren't any 13 shells -- 14 A: Because we didn't find any. 15 Q: How -- but -- can you explain that? 16 Some shells were found, I take? 17 A: Yeah, there were shells, but they 18 were police shells. 19 Q: How do you know that they were police 20 shells? 21 A: Again, Chico's pointing out to me 22 which guns are being used. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Yeah, I'm not -- I'm not into weapons 25 so I don't know from -- somebody has to explain that to
1501 me. 2 Q: All right, so you were relying on 3 what Chico Ralph reported to you? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: All right. Did he report anything 6 else to you in terms of -- 7 A: About where this -- 8 Q: -- conclusions? 9 A: -- where the shootings took place, 10 because there was also shootings that took place from 11 behind the -- from behind the bus. 12 Q: The bus -- 13 A: Into the bus. 14 Q: Okay. And -- 15 A: I guess through the back door. I'm 16 assuming, I can only guess at this -- 17 Q: Okay. I'd rather you not speculate-- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- just let me know what it is that 20 Mr. Ralph -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- reported to you. 23 A: Because he was pointing out to me how 24 -- how it could have been done. 25 Q: Okay.
1511 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And were there any other findings or 3 conclusions of significance that -- that you received a 4 report of in relation to the team, aside from the 5 shooting? 6 A: The liquor bottles that was found. 7 Q: And what about that? 8 A: Well that was kind of -- you know, 9 the -- there was several, I would say, what I saw and 10 they tried not to point it out or, you know, to -- like, 11 how many there was. But they didn't touch it, but they 12 showed me and they would get a stick to, you know, to 13 pick anything up to show me the empty bottles that was 14 there. 15 Q: What location did you find empty 16 liquor bottles? 17 A: Again in that -- in the vicinity of 18 where the police was at, where they were stationed at. 19 Q: Okay, and can you just tell me what 20 that -- what the boundaries of that area was again, what 21 the -- 22 A: On the corner again that would be the 23 -- that would be the southwest corner from the Park. 24 Q: Where the cottages were? 25 A: No, away from the lake.
1521 Q: Away from the -- so, on the opposite 2 of -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the road? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Towards the Park. 8 Q: Towards the Park? 9 A: The parking lot, yeah. 10 Q: Inside -- towards the parking lot? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. The MNR parking lot? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So, that'd be the corner of East 17 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road towards the MNR parking 18 lot? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And is that -- was that on the road 21 or where -- where did you see liquor bottles? 22 A: It was in that vicinity. It was in 23 that area. 24 Q: Okay. And -- 25 A: That corner.
1531 Q: -- in -- on the road or in the bush 2 or both? 3 A: In the bush. 4 Q: Okay. And approximately how many did 5 you see? 6 A: Seven (7). 7 Q: And when -- 8 A: I'm guessing between five (5) and 9 seven (7). 10 Q: All right. 11 A: There was a few. 12 Q: And when did you see these bottles? 13 A: On the day that we're looking at the 14 buildings. 15 Q: The cottages that we just looked at? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Now, to your knowledge, 18 were these findings relayed to the SIU or the OPP by your 19 team? 20 A: The question again? 21 Q: Were -- to your knowledge, were these 22 findings and conclusions relayed by your team or members 23 of your team to either the SIU or the OPP? 24 A: In the investigation of ours, we're 25 looking at all aspects of what could be, or trying to,
1541 and I don't know if -- if the other investigation group 2 was looking into that, no. Again, I -- you know, that's 3 part of what we do. 4 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was a 5 written report ultimately produced by Chico Ralf? 6 A: To my knowledge, yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you actually see 8 a copy of that report? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: All right. Now, when -- 11 approximately how long did you maintain the role of 12 ensuring or at least seeing to the security detachment at 13 the -- at the Park and -- and Camp, on behalf of the 14 First Nations? 15 A: Twenty-one (21) days after I had come 16 in. 17 Q: Okay. So sometime at the end -- 18 A: Three (3) weeks. 19 Q: -- end of September you -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- finished that role? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. And did you play any 24 other roles in relation to the -- the escalation of 25 anxiety and tensions amongst the -- the people there,
1551 aside from the security detail and the investigation 2 team? 3 A: There was many meetings that was 4 taking place to -- to try to address to all of the 5 concerns that was -- that was coming up. Again, you 6 know, there's -- at night there's cars that are going by, 7 we're trying to keep an eye on what's going on. And 8 there was things from -- that was happening on the 9 inside. 10 I needed -- I need to know who's in the 11 Camp, you know, who's coming in and out. I need to know 12 that. And so there was people that was designated to be 13 able to be able to do that and to report back to me. If 14 there was anything that was happening, again, rumours are 15 flying, you know, that there's maybe a police coming in, 16 you know, OPP taking over. There's all these rumours 17 that was out there, so we're trying to address to all of 18 that. 19 Q: All right. And address -- find out 20 whether the rumours are true or false and -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: -- relay that to the people? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And was this primarily with respect 25 to the people who were actually at the Army Camp?
1561 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And did you play any -- 3 any role in relation to facilitating relations as between 4 the Ministry of the Natural Resources and the Stoney 5 Point group, occupants? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And can you tell me what role you 8 played in -- in that respect? 9 A: From the MNR there was concerns of -- 10 of the lagoon and of the -- the pump house. And so, you 11 know, I have no idea of what that entails. Again, I had 12 to talk to people, you know, who know about those things, 13 you know, and how to maintain it and how to keep it 14 going. 15 And, again, that's something that, you 16 know, I know nothing about. So my -- my thing is to 17 bring in those people, let me talk to those people, they 18 can tell me what the concerns are and see how we can 19 address it. 20 Q: Okay. And did you in fact have 21 meetings -- some meetings with officials from -- or 22 employees from the Ministry of Natural Resources -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and the OPP in relation to what 25 would happen to the Park?
1571 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what were the -- when did those 3 discussions take place? Over what period of time? 4 A: It began to happen right after. 5 Again, after the 9th, you know, and those things began 6 to, you know, come up more often. To tell you exactly 7 how many meetings there was I -- there was many. 8 Q: All right. And was one of the topics 9 that you dealt with the winterization of the Park then? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Perhaps you would look at Tab 20 of 12 your Book of Documents? It's Inquiry Document Number 13 2001399. It's a note from Mike, perhaps Mike Hudson 14 possibly of the OPP, to a Superintendent Parkin dated 15 November 29, 1995. 16 And it appears from this note that you had 17 a conversation with the author of this note on November 18 the 29th in relation to the winterization of the Park; is 19 that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Perhaps we could make 22 that the next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 278. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-278: Document No. 1001399 November
1581 29/'95 Attn: Supt. Parkin 2 re: Project "Maple" 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: And in this note it indicates that 6 you advised the author that: 7 "You were no longer doing the local 8 negotiations and that Gord Peters was." 9 And further that: 10 "They were not going to completely 11 vacate the Park, that there would be 12 someone left at or using the 13 maintenance building due to 14 environmental concerns." 15 Now, do you recall what that was about, 16 the -- what role were you taking, as opposed to Gord 17 Peters, at this point? 18 A: What had happened at the point or 19 that -- in November, was that Gord was more involved with 20 -- to see to it that these things were being taken care 21 of and more so than am I. 22 And so, we would be in -- he would be in 23 contact with me, you know, letting me know what was -- 24 what was going on, what was happening. 25 Q: All right. All right. And perhaps
1591 you would look next at Tab 21 please and Inquiry Document 2 Number 1009204. 3 It's an e-mail dated December 4, 1995, 4 from Les Kobayashi with Parks and Recreation to Peter 5 Sturdy, also of the Minister of Natural Resources, 6 concerning the winterization of Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park? 8 A: What has happened at this point in 9 time was that I was home and I was asked to -- to come in 10 to help facilitate this process because it was a matter 11 of time to have the Park facilities winterized and the 12 concern that was there was that Les Kobayashi was saying 13 that in order for the people to come in to winterize it, 14 is that they felt that they were -- the security in there 15 wasn't -- wasn't good or to their satisfaction. 16 So they wanted OPP to be able to come in 17 to escort them in. 18 Q: The employees so that they could do 19 the -- 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And what was the result -- resolution 22 to that? 23 A: The community of Stoney Point 24 refused. Said that was -- nobody was -- was no OPP to 25 come into -- to escort them at that time.
1601 So in -- in -- you know, what I was saying 2 was that there was a delay things that was beginning to 3 happen. And so I suggested at that time that it -- I 4 looked around because all the people who do work there 5 are sitting in there and they're from the community. 6 So I asked them. I said, can this be 7 done? Can it be winterized? And they said we can do it 8 today or tomorrow. So I turned back to Les and I says, 9 we'll take care of it. 10 Q: And when you say, "they could do it 11 today:" who is the, "they"? 12 A: The people who were in -- in Stoney 13 Point in -- within the camp. 14 Q: All right. So not the -- not the 15 employees -- Park employees -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- but others? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And did -- 20 A: They are the employees. Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Oh, I see. You mean, they had had 24 prior experience doing this. 25 A: The majority of what goes on within
1611 the camp is people from the community who have worked 2 there so they know all of what needs to be done. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And again, that's who I have to look 5 to for advice, because I don't know some of these things, 6 so what is needed or what has to be done. 7 Q: Okay. Now, can we make that the next 8 exhibit, Commissioner? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-279. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-279. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-279: Document No. 1009203 December 14 04/'95 08:17 a.m. email to 15 Peter Sturdy from Les 16 Kobayashi, MNR - Parks and 17 Recreation, Subject: 18 Ipperwash Meeting December 19 02/'95 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: I understand, Mr. Elijah, that at 23 certain point in time individuals from the Stoney Point 24 community, certain of them surrendered themselves for 25 purposes of outstanding arrest warrants; do you recall
1621 that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did you have any role to play in 4 facilitating that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: How that came about was, again, 8 coming back to that we needed somebody, from within the 9 camp, to be delegated or designated by -- by their people 10 to be the spokespersons. 11 And the people who -- whose names had come 12 up to me were -- there were outstanding warrants for 13 these men and these peoples. You know, and I think -- I 14 think the majority of them were men. 15 And so, you know, no telling that when you 16 go off -- off the community, if you go into Kettle Point 17 or we go into Forest or wherever the meeting is going to 18 be, that they might be arrested. 19 And so I pointed out to them that in order 20 to clear that up is that they need to turn themselves in 21 so we can clear that up and we can get on with business 22 of what needs to be. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And so, those are recommendations, 25 suggestions from me to them. Again, I can't make that
1631 decision for them. I think it was -- there was another 2 meeting within a day or so at Kettle Point at the police 3 station, we're going to have another meeting and it was 4 at that time, I think the day after they informed me that 5 they were -- two (2) of them had already gone in and then 6 the rest were willing to come in on that day and turn 7 themselves in. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So that was arranged. 10 Q: And would you look at the document at 11 Tab 14, please. It's Inquiry Document Number 1001301, 12 and it's a press release dated November 1, 1995, released 13 by the West Region Ontario Provincial Police. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 15 that? I'm sorry, Ms. -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 14. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 14? 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And it reads: 21 "As a result of ongoing negotiations 22 with Ipperwash Provincial Park 23 occupiers and the peacekeepers under 24 the direction of Bruce Elijah of the 25 Oneida settlement, the following First
1641 Nations people turned themselves in to 2 members of the Ontario Provincial 3 Police at Kettle Point today." 4 And there's a number of individuals that 5 are listed. 6 And is that -- is that accurate? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can we make that the next exhibit, 9 please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-280. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-280. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-280: Document No. 1001301 November 14 1/'95 Press Release West 15 Region OPP Listing warrants 16 fro the arrest of individuals 17 as a result of incidents 18 during the Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park occupation. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Now, aside from the practical issues 23 such as winterization of the Park, in late 1995, did you 24 play any role in relation to facilitating relations 25 between the Stoney Point group and the Kettle and Stoney
1651 Point Band? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And can you tell us what -- what role 4 you played in that respect? 5 A: Again, I was looking at a phase out 6 of my role and there seems to be, at that time, that 7 there was people that was designated from both sides, 8 from both parties, that they were approachable, that it 9 seemed like that things were going to work out. So again 10 my role as -- as to gradually, you know, step out of the 11 picture. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Yeah. 14 A: And did your role, with respect to 15 facilitating relations to a degree, at least, between the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources and the Stoney Point group, 17 also begin to fade out -- phase out at this time? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And similarly with respect to the OPP 20 and the Stoney Point group? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1661 Q: And when did you cease to be formerly 2 involved as a designate by the longhouse as a negotiator 3 and facilitator in this matter? 4 A: It would have been the latter part of 5 November. 6 Q: November '95? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you had some ongoing involvement 9 a little after that, didn't you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I was informed of the different -- 13 again, at that time there had been one (1) of the men, 14 Layton Elijah was designated to be there, to be the 15 liaison between the community and the OPP. 16 Q: And do you know what other roles, if 17 any, Leyton Elijah played aside from liaison with the OPP 18 and the community? 19 A: And also to report -- report back to 20 us. 21 Q: Okay. When -- had he been there 22 earlier than -- than November of '95? 23 A: Yes, he was. He was brought in -- 24 that was when the request had taken place between the 25 people of Stoney Point and -- and our community.
1671 Q: All right. So back around the time 2 of the initial occupation of the Park? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And what was his designated role at 5 that time? 6 A: To be able to hopefully -- that if 7 there's any crisis or, you know, to diffuse it as quickly 8 as possible and to report back to -- to the Council, our 9 Council. 10 Q: And so while your role was to be 11 there from time to time, was his role more of a full-time 12 role there? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: All right. And did the -- did the 15 longhouse receive a request by any party to withdraw its 16 -- its people from the situation? 17 A: Again, I wasn't at those meetings. I 18 only heard that there was meetings that took place and 19 the request for that assistance and for that help. 20 Q: But was there a request that the -- 21 that the Oneida people withdraw from the area? 22 A: Withdraw? 23 Q: Withdraw. 24 A: There was I think probably two (2), 25 that I'm aware of, to withdraw.
1681 Q: All right. And do you recall who 2 made those requests for withdrawal? 3 A: From the people in the community. 4 Q: The Stoney Point community? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was there a request also by -- by 7 Chief Bressette? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you know approximately when 10 those requests were made? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Was it after the phasing out of your 13 role or before? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: After? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Thank you. And ultimately did -- 18 were the Oneida peacekeepers and personnel withdrawn from 19 the Ipperwash area by the longhouse? 20 A: There was a -- the Band Council of 21 Kettle Point, there was dates that was set aside to do 22 that officially with the Kettle Point people, of that 23 request, of what they had asked for me to help, and that 24 it was -- there was a day set, I think it was like the 25 following year to give --
1691 Q: In '96? 2 A: Yeah. To give an acknowledgement at 3 that time. I wasn't around, again, at the time. There 4 was others that took that. 5 Q: All right. And was there any -- any 6 celebratory event at the Kettle and Stoney Point 7 community held in recognition of the peacekeepers from 8 Oneida with respect to this crisis? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And would you kindly look at Tab 18, 11 please, of your productions. It's Inquiry Document 12 Number 2000331. It's entitled, Agenda, Peacekeepers 13 Dinner, November 8, 1995, at the Kettle Point Community 14 Centre, and is this the event -- the celebratory event 15 that was held? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Now, were you actually in 18 -- in attendance at this meeting? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. I'd like to make that the 21 next exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-281, Your Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 281. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-281: Document No., 2000331 Agenda
1701 for Peacekeepers Dinner, 2 November 08/'95 13:00 hours 3 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA:: Thank you, Mr. 5 Elijah. That completes my examination. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA:: I understand there 9 will be some cross-examination which we'll determine now. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who wishes 12 to examine Mr. Elijah? Okay. 13 Mr. Klippenstein...? 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About ten (10) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 17 minutes. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) to ten (10) 19 minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Esmonde, 21 five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 22 Mr. Ross...? 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I'll wrap up. I'll be 24 the last. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll be
1711 the last, okay. 2 Mr. Henderson...? 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Possibly thirty 4 (30) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 6 Jackson...? 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 8 fifteen (15) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 10 Roland...? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: I suspect a couple of 12 hours. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 14 Hourigan...? 15 MR. HOURIGAN: Fifteen (15) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 17 minutes. 18 We were hoping that we could complete -- 19 we have to complete your evidence today otherwise we have 20 to put you over to another day. So, there's a good 21 chance. Let's get started. 22 Mr. Klippenstein...? 23 We could sit a little longer if we have to 24 today to try to complete Mr. Elijah's examination. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you,
1721 Commissioner. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: Mr. Elijah, my name is Murray 5 Klippenstein and I'm one of the Legal Counsel for the 6 Estate of Dudley George and Sam George and other brothers 7 and sisters of Dudley George. 8 Mr. Elijah, in your testimony you've made 9 some mention of treaties and is it fair to say that you 10 have some familiarity with various treaties, is that -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And would it be fair to say that 13 different treaties deal with different things but many 14 treaties include a promise by the Crown that portions of 15 land would be recognized as exclusively for the use of 16 the original peoples, that is for native people. 17 Would you agree with that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I'd like to focus a little more 20 specifically on the area around here, around Ipperwash. 21 We've heard evidence in this Inquiry that there was a 22 treaty negotiated almost two hundred (200) years ago 23 between the British Crown and the Chippewa people of this 24 area. 25 And that in that treaty the Crown
1731 guaranteed that several blocks of land at Kettle Point 2 and Stoney Point would be recognized in perpetuity as 3 native land, that is as reserves. 4 Based on your knowledge, do you have any 5 reason to disagree with that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: As a First Nation negotiator and 8 peacekeeper when there's a land dispute between First 9 Nations people and non-natives, if there's a treaty that 10 guarantees certain specific lands as native lands, is it, 11 in your experience, useful, to look at that treaty and to 12 look at the specific land promises by the Crown in that 13 treaty, as a guide to what should be and would be 14 considered fair, from a First Nations point of view; 15 would you agree with that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when this Commission is looking 18 at what caused the violence in 1995 around the shooting 19 of Dudley George and how to prevent such violence in the 20 future, would it be useful, in your view, for the 21 Commission to look at the land promises in the treaty for 22 this area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if some of that land guaranteed 25 by treaty has been taken away from native people, would
1741 you agree that restoring that treaty land to native 2 people would be a major step towards a better long-term 3 relationship between native and non-native people; would 4 you agree with that? 5 A: Yes. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. I 7 have no further questions. Thank you, Commissioner. 8 Thank you, Mr. Elijah. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Ms. Esmonde...? 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 13 Q: Good morning, Mr. Elijah. My name is 14 Jackie Esmonde. I'm one of the lawyers representing the 15 Aazhoodena and George Family Group, which includes some 16 of the descendants of Melva George, who I think may be 17 one of the grandmothers that you referred to in your 18 testimony? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that right? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. Now if I could ask you to 23 begin with -- if you could just turn to Tab 13 in your 24 book. This is a minutes of a meeting that have been 25 marked as P-217. It's Document Number 2002380.
1751 And I just wanted to ask you about -- 2 there's a comment here that's attributed to you; it's 3 about half way down. Bullet point says: 4 "St. John's -- " 5 I'm sorry, it's not attributed to you. It 6 says: 7 "St. John's trailer doesn't look legit 8 and has them concerned." 9 Do you see that there? 10 Did you have concerns -- 11 A: Okay, yeah, I see it. 12 Q: Now, did you have concerns that the 13 St. John's trailer, perhaps the one that we saw in the 14 video was not legit -- legitimate? 15 A: I have some questions with that, yes. 16 Q: Yeah. Could you tell me what were 17 your concerns about that? 18 A: Again, you know, what is -- you know, 19 what does St. John's ambulance do? And so this kind of 20 changes the whole thing for me. 21 Q: Were you concerned that the police 22 were using that van as a communications centre? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that they were using that as some 25 cover?
1761 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you didn't think that was 3 appropriate? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And we also saw in the video there 6 was a -- a receipt, was to said to be a receipt for a 7 liquor purchase -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And I think you were asked if you 10 would actually -- you actually saw that receipt at some 11 point? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: Do you have any recollection today of 14 what the amount was on the receipt? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. Okay. 17 A: No. 18 Q: Now, one of the issues that's come up 19 through the course of this Inquiry is some concern about 20 the presence of people at Stoney Point who were not 21 Stoney Pointers. 22 Now, is it not the case that it's not 23 unusual for First Nations people to visit other reserves? 24 A: It's not unusual, no. 25 Q: Right. That's a common occurrence?
1771 A: Yeah. That's a common occurrence. 2 Q: Visit for social reasons? 3 A: Pretty well. 4 Q: Yeah, for fishing -- 5 A: That's the history of our people is 6 that we visit -- 7 Q: For hunting -- 8 A: -- each other. 9 Q: -- and fishing and other -- 10 A: Trade -- 11 Q: -- nations? 12 A: Yeah, healings, meetings, family 13 introductions. 14 Q: You'd mentioned sacred ceremonies. 15 There was a -- 16 A: Sacred ceremonies. 17 Q: -- group that wanted to come to 18 Stoney Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I think you were also clear today 21 that it -- it's not unusual for First Nations people to 22 show solidarity to other First Nations when they're in 23 the midst of a difficulty or some kind of dispute? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that your own nation, the Oneida
1781 nation, has a history of providing assistance when asked? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that one of the main principles 4 in providing that assistance is that you seek a peaceful 5 resolution? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I take it that the Stoney Point 8 people that you met with were in complete agreement with 9 you that they wanted a peaceful resolution? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, another issue that's arisen -- 12 that's arisen throughout the Inquiry is a so-called 13 warrior society and there's been a lot of questions about 14 that. 15 You're aware, I take it, of a portrayal 16 perhaps in the media of a war -- of a warrior society; it 17 has a negative connotation, perhaps, in the -- in the 18 popular media. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You're aware of that? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And in your discussions with the 23 police, did they raise concerns with you over the 24 presence of so-called warriors as a policing concern for 25 them?
1791 A: Yes. 2 Q: And in fact, they were concerned by 3 the presence of other First Nations at Stoney Point? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And were you able to alleviate their 6 concerns in any way? What did you explain to them when 7 this issue arose? 8 A: I explained to them that if there was 9 going to be anybody of our peoples First Nations people 10 from other communities that we would let them know. 11 Q: And would you agree with me that 12 portrayals of First Nations warriors in the popular media 13 is based in part on racist beliefs about First Nations 14 people as violent savages? 15 A: Yes. 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you very much 17 for your testimony today. Thank you. Those are all my 18 questions. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 23 Henderson...? 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 25 Commissioner.
1801 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 4 Q: Sorry to keep you waiting, Mr. 5 Elijah. My name is Bill Henderson and I represent the 6 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point. You indicated this 7 morning that you first began to go down to Stoney Point 8 because you were invited there to ceremonies; is that 9 correct? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Would one (1) of those ceremonies 12 have been referred to -- or it's been described here as 13 burying the hatchet and planting a peace tree? 14 A: I wasn't invited to that one. 15 Q: Were you aware of it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Now, as I understand it, in 18 the tradition of Haudenosaunee, there -- there is a 19 teaching about burying arms and the growth of the peace 20 tree? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Could you briefly describe it for the 23 Commission? 24 A: A while back in our history, you 25 know, the -- it is written, not by us, but the people who
1811 supposedly wrote about that, of describing what that tree 2 of peace meant, was that it was a period of time where 3 they write as that we were warlike people, even to the 4 point of fighting, you know, with each other, and that 5 there was a point in time where the peacemaker came to us 6 and said, one thousand (1,000) or two (2) years ago, and 7 said, you know, that we would bury our hatchet under the 8 tree of peace, and that in its place would be this great 9 law of peace as to the procedures of how we deal with 10 things in the future. 11 So, we still follow that to this day. 12 Q: Yes. And -- 13 A: I just want to make a correction on 14 that, is that there was no wars amongst ourselves. Boy, 15 that changes your whole history, doesn't it? 16 See, amongst our people is that we come 17 back to this spiritual aspect as to who we are, is that 18 if you follow the spiritual side and understand that 19 part, then you can't have -- be having wars amongst 20 yourselves. 21 When we talk about we are the foundation, 22 we gave the foundation of democracy to the world, that's 23 a true fact because of the documentation that was done 24 when the Jesuit missionaries came, is that they found a 25 utopia.
1821 And the utopia means that -- that amongst 2 our people they did -- they did not find one (1) 3 institution, they did not find one (1) individual who 4 might be hungry, who may not be taken care of, that all 5 people were taken care of. And that's what they meant 6 when they said a utopia. 7 And a utopia means godly people who look 8 after one another. And if that's the case, then how can 9 we be warlike people. So, there was a homework that was 10 designed in Europe, and I can tell you to this day about 11 what's happening in Europe with the crusades. 12 And so they used that, the churches and 13 the governments of this world sat down and planned an 14 action of how to get rid of us. That's the true history. 15 I can do more on that but -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 think I need to go -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 20 Q: I was going to -- I was going to say, 21 it's taken us six (6) months to find out what happened in 22 two (2) weeks at Kettle Point and -- 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: -- Stoney Point, so -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can't
1831 deal with the -- 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 4 Q: I don't think we'll do all of the 5 history at the moment, but thank you for it. 6 A: That gives you sort of an idea of the 7 homework that we need to do -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- to create that awareness on your 10 side. We already know, we live it. 11 Q: Well, thank -- thank you for sharing 12 the small part that I asked you about, and that was in 13 relation of course to the -- the burying of the weapons 14 or the arms, and the -- and the tree of peace. 15 And part of the teaching I believe is that 16 the -- the peace tree or the tree of peace is -- is a 17 white pine? 18 A: It's a great white pine, yes. 19 Q: Yes. And that has something to do 20 with the number of needles -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- as symbolic of the five (5) 23 original nations? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: Thank you. And you also indicated
1841 the teaching that whatever hostility or tensions there 2 had been within the -- the five (5) nations before that 3 was replaced by the Great Law of Peace? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And we've heard earlier in the 6 Commission's evidence from Mr. Glenn George, whom you 7 know, I believe? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And he also referred, at several 10 junctures, to the Great Law of Peace and would you 11 understand him to be referring to the same Great Law of 12 Peace that you are? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And that is, of course, the 15 Great Law of Peace? 16 A: I want to say that in the four (4) 17 directions of this Great Turtle Island is that every 18 nation from the east to the west coast, to the north, to 19 the south is that we have this wonderful, beautiful 20 teachings of how we relate to the land and our 21 responsibilities of. And so when you talk about, you 22 know, what is the difference between the Great Law of 23 Peace and the peace, everybody has that. 24 And so those are the things that when we 25 sit down together, those are what is brought out when I
1851 was mentioning earlier about the three (3) songs and the 2 three (3) sacred gifts that is given to each and every 3 one so our people of how we communicate with each other. 4 That's a protocol. That's a procedure. 5 Q: I understand. And further to that, 6 in relation to the teaching of the -- the Tree of Peace-- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- it has four (4) white roots that 9 go off in the different directions? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Which makes them available to all 12 nations, as I understand it? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: As the, "beautiful teaching," as you 15 describe it, and within the Great Law itself there are 16 provisions for how other nations adhere to the Great Law 17 of Peace, if they wish to do so? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Or may be compelled to do so in other 20 circumstances? 21 A: And the teachings that says that 22 whenever you feel that you need help, whatever, whether 23 it be for food or whether it be protection of your 24 peoples is that you follow those white roots back to its 25 source where the tree stands.
1861 And that tree symbolically stands with the 2 Onondaga nation, that's the capital of our confederacy, 3 that that's where you bring your concerns to. And then 4 the runners will be sent out to the rest of the other 5 Indian nations to have a meeting to see how we can assist 6 that's peacefully. 7 Q: Thank you. And you said this morning 8 that if another nation requests assistance, ultimately a 9 messenger is sent to Onondaga? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And, as far as you're aware, that was 12 never done in the case of the Stoney Point Group or the 13 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point? 14 A: The Stoney Point people did. 15 Q: They sent a message to Onondaga? 16 A: They sent a message to us, to 17 Oneida's. Not to Onondaga, to us. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. This would be the longhouse 19 in the United Settlement in Ontario? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Okay. And that message was sent, I 22 thought you said, sometime after July 29th, 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Now, prior to that, of course, 25 you had been attending, personally, at -- at Stoney Point
1871 and visiting the people there and participating in 2 ceremonies as you'd indicated; is that correct? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And during that period were you also 5 reporting to your Council, which would be the Longhouse 6 Counsel at Oneida Settlement? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And would that be in connection with 9 participating in the ceremonies, you would report back on 10 your travels? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if it's open to you to answer, do 13 you hold an office or -- of some sort with the longhouse 14 at Oneida Settlement? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Could you tell us what it is? 17 A: As an advisor. 18 Q: As an advisor. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. And did you have some 21 direction from the Council at some point to advise the 22 people of Stoney Point how to regain their land? 23 A: No. 24 Q: So when you had the discussions that 25 you described this morning in relation to -- to who
1881 should be sent to take over land, don't send the young 2 men and talking to the grandma's, I believe you described 3 it? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the several meetings that you 6 said you attended on that, you were acting on your own? 7 A: There's an understanding that, from 8 my Council, when I say specifically, you're talking about 9 specifics now -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- there's a role that I play and 12 that is that they believe and that they understand that I 13 have some commonsense approach to dealing when questions 14 are asked by the people to give them some kind of an 15 answer. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: Okay? And so when I do that, I know, 18 that at some given time, if I'm questioned, I will be 19 brought before the Council, so everything of what I say 20 and everything of what I do is within those teachings of 21 what is given to me. 22 But, it's also sometimes I -- I don't have 23 the luxury or the time to be able to go back and say 24 specifically, when I'm asked a question, do I answer it 25 and say, Hold it, I can't answer at this moment and have
1891 to go back to my Council to be able to get permission to 2 -- to answer this question? I don't do that. 3 So, sometimes I'll have to say, Personally 4 this is coming from me, okay? 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Yes. 6 A: Does that answer it? 7 Q: I -- I think generally, yes. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: Did you, in the -- in the course of 10 these meetings you attended were you saying that 11 personally this came from me or would this be in the -- 12 A: There was a time that -- that I was 13 officially delegated, then that is, specifically, for 14 those. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And there were times when we visited. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: And, you know, and when you visit -- 19 what are the boundaries of what do you ask and what don't 20 you? You know, there are no boundaries. 21 Q: I think we do understand. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: If we come into the period of July 24 1995, did you have a formal mandate from your Council at 25 that point or were you -- were you visiting at that
1901 point? 2 A: When was that again? 3 Q: In July of 1995, apart from your 4 engagement with the -- with the Department of National 5 Defence. 6 A: Apart from that? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Those were -- we were visiting. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you were engaged by National 12 Defence initially to run the, I take it, the two (2) day 13 sensitivity seminar? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I noticed, when we look at the -- 16 the DND reports, which I assume you didn't see at the 17 time, but they all have a heading, OP Maple, at the top. 18 Did you know what OP Maple or Operation 19 Maple was? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. Now, just catching back up, 22 the -- the initial engagement was to run a two (2) day 23 symposium or sensitivity sessions, et cetera, and we've 24 seen the minutes from those. 25 A: Right.
1911 Q: And then the engagement was extended 2 to see if it could involve more mediation and bring 3 together a native circle around the problem? 4 A: Yes. Yeah. 5 Q: And ultimately that was scheduled for 6 August the -- I'm sorry, August the 26th. That would be 7 the new moon, yes, as indeed, tomorrow is the new moon. 8 I hope that's not why you're available to us. 9 A: That's the reason why. 10 Q: The -- the date was August the 26th, 11 1995 for that meeting, but it wasn't going to happen. 12 Apparently it was obvious as early as the 24th or 25th of 13 July, that the August 26th meeting might not happen and 14 you were directed, if I remember correctly, or agreed at 15 least to -- to meet with Chief Bressette to see if he 16 would sponsor it; is that correct? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And that didn't result in 19 rescheduling or resetting of that meeting? 20 A: Not to my awareness, no. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Yeah, not to my knowledge. 23 Q: And that meeting would have been the 24 24th or 25th of July? 25 A: In or around there.
1921 Q: Okay. Now, to come to that meeting, 2 there's one (1) -- one (1) minute that My Friend showed 3 you. I believe it's your Tab 1. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: It's Tab 1 in your book and that's 8 Exhibit P-271. Does anyone require the document number? 9 Okay. 10 Now, at the second page, I believe -- I 11 hope I'm talking into the microphone -- the third page, 12 there is a prospective list of the people who might be 13 attending that August 26th meeting. 14 Do you see that list, sir? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And it starts off: 17 "A meeting native circle, et cetera." 18 And carries on: 19 "1. Bob Antone, Bruce Elijah 20 2. Captain David Scandrett and 21 Canadian Ranger staff." 22 And I'll just skip to 3: 23 "3. Representative from Kettle and 24 Stoney Point Band Council. 25 4. Elders, male and female, from
1931 Kettle Stoney Point Band." 2 Five (5) and six (6) are the ones that 3 interest me. Five (5) seems to be: 4 "Representative from the radical 5 element of the Stoney Point group." 6 And six (6) seems to be: 7 "Representative from the traditional 8 element of the Stoney Point group." 9 Can you assist us with what those two (2) 10 categories mean, or? 11 A: Again, my -- my role and my 12 responsibility in addressing to the concerns of the 13 communities is that I don't designate who the 14 spokespeoples are. 15 Q: I'm not -- I'm not suggesting you 16 designated those categories but they're in a list that 17 you apparently discussed -- 18 A: Then there is a list. 19 Q: -- you know what they mean? 20 A: Then there is a list. 21 Q: Okay, it would be, I believe at least 22 three (3) meetings that you had with Glenn George, you 23 didn't discuss that list with him or get any indication 24 who might be appearing? 25 A: We always -- in our meetings we're
1941 always talking about how to carry on with the meetings 2 and to find solutions to the concerns that are there. 3 And so, you know, I have to know that. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: It is brought to my attention. 6 Q: Okay. So -- so your -- your evidence 7 today is you don't know what those two (2) groups were 8 and you weren't able to identify any leaders who might be 9 associated with -- 10 A: Mine is there to listen to what the 11 concerns are. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: Yeah. That's what I do. 14 Q: And also to identify leaders, as you 15 said this morning? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: But you weren't able to identify any 18 leaders here? 19 A: See, I'm not into the names of the 20 people. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: I'm bad for names. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: But if I catch your face, that I 25 won't forget.
1951 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: Okay? 3 Q: Fair enough. So your meeting 4 possibly as late as July 25th with -- with Chief 5 Bressette and/or others, July 26th we don't know 6 necessarily what you were doing, July 27th we do know is 7 a new moon, and July 29th the place is taken over, the 8 built-up area is taken over by the Stoney Point group. 9 Now, you'd been meeting with them through 10 that period of course and you're working with DND through 11 this period of course, and you had no idea that they were 12 going to, during that period, take over the built-up 13 area? 14 A: I knew that it was coming but I 15 didn't know when. 16 Q: Thank you. That -- 17 A: Exactly when. 18 Q: -- that's what you seemed to say this 19 morning, you knew it was going to happen but you didn't 20 know how and when? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So the actual timing was a surprise 23 to you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But you knew it was going to happen?
1961 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did you have the same general 3 knowledge about the Park a month later? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Now, knowing that it was going 6 to happen at some point, did you communicate that to the 7 Military at all? 8 A: Everybody knew that. 9 Q: Everybody knew that? 10 A: Everybody knew that. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: In fact, I think maybe some people 13 knew more about it than I did. 14 Q: Makes you wonder why we might not 15 consider renaming the Department of National Defence 16 then, doesn't it, if they knew that? 17 A: Really. 18 Q: Now, you were basically, as a visitor 19 or in other capacities, you spent more than two (2) years 20 visiting or assisting or engaged in various projects in 21 the old Stoney Point Reserve. 22 And did you see the nature of the people 23 who were there when you visited, change, during -- during 24 that period; the people you first encountered to the 25 people who were last there when you were last involved?
1971 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you see the character of the 3 people change, in terms of their conduct towards other? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was the group larger or smaller 6 when you left than when you got there? 7 A: It was smaller. 8 Q: And perhaps more closely self- 9 defined? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Than you, sir. Those are my 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 I think Ms. Tuck Jackson...? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 19 Commissioner, I can indicate that I anticipate I'm going 20 to take Mr. Elijah to a portion of the videotape that My 21 Friend, Ms. Vella, showed him and I'm going to need a 22 brief opportunity to cue that up. 23 I see the time is 2:45 which would be a 24 natural breaking point in terms of timing following 25 lunch, I wonder if it might be an appropriate time to
1981 break. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. If 3 you can line it up and save some time, we'll take a break 4 now. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir, 6 very much. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 9 for fifteen (15) minutes. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 2:47 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 3:01 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 17 Mr. Commissioner. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: And good afternoon, Mr. Elijah. Sir, 21 my name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm Counsel to the OPP. 22 And I'd like to take you back, if I could, 23 to mid-July 1995 when you spoke of your involvement in 24 the cross-cultural awareness training. And you 25 acknowledged earlier today that Officer Paul Trivett
1991 participated in that training program, correct? 2 A: No. I know that there was some 3 police officers. But to say that that's who it was, I 4 don't know. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: You recognized, however, is it fair 8 to say that that gentleman who participated in mid-July 9 was one of the same gentlemen who came to the table from 10 time to time during your meetings following the shooting 11 on September the 6th? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And I anticipate that 14 we'll hear that gentleman is Paul Trivett. Let me ask 15 you a different question then. I trust, sir, it was your 16 understanding that this particular gentleman who was 17 attending on behalf of the OPP is also a First Nations 18 person? 19 You've gestured in a way that I -- it's 20 difficult for me to interpret. Was it your understanding 21 that Officer Trivett is a First Nations person? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You didn't know that? 24 A: I didn't know that. 25 Q: All right. You may recall, sir, that
2001 during the cultural awareness training he spoke about 2 spirituality and some of the Ojibway cultural; does that 3 refresh your memory? 4 A: There was someone who spoke to that, 5 yes. 6 Q: All right. But you can't assist us 7 as to who specifically that was? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And if I were to suggest to you, sir, 10 that it was, indeed, this same officer on behalf of the 11 OPP, I trust you would have no reason to disagree with 12 me? 13 A: I have no reason to disagree with 14 you. 15 Q: Thank you, sir. You told us that the 16 group of people who were brought together to raise 17 awareness for the military were brought together at the 18 request of the military; do I understand that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And is it fair to say that as far as 21 you were aware, they decided who would come to 22 participate as facilitators or instructors? 23 A: I assume that. 24 Q: All right. And you'd agree with me 25 that when you -- one looks at that list, and if you'd
2011 like to go back to it briefly it appears at Tab 1 of the 2 binder in front of you, the list appears at the second 3 page in, you'd agree with me, sir, that during that 4 training session there was no representation from the 5 Kettle and Stony Point Police Service? 6 A: Not that I was aware of. 7 Q: Thank you. I'd like to jump ahead, 8 sir, then if I could, to the evening of September the 9 7th, 1995. So, that would be the day or evening of the 10 day of your arrival in the area. And I'm wondering if I 11 could have one (1) document put up on the screen. 12 Does that complicate matters? 2003790. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: A moment's indulgence, Mr. Elijah, 17 while we cue this up. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, I understand, sir, that on the 23 evening of September the 7th at around 6:00 p.m., you and 24 a number of other individuals attended up at the Pinedale 25 Motel, which is just north of here in Grand Bend?
2021 A: Yes. 2 Q: Thank you. And I understand that the 3 evening was divided into two (2) parts and the evening 4 began with a talking circle? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that talking circle, I understand 7 involved quite a number of people; upwards of nineteen 8 (19) or twenty (20) individuals? 9 A: In around there, yes. 10 Q: All right. And those individuals 11 included representatives from the OPP? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And again, I don't know, you've -- 14 you've indicated quite fairly that you're good with 15 faces, but perhaps not as good with names. 16 Do you recall a gentleman by the name of 17 Chris Coles in attendance? 18 A: There was meetings that I -- that I 19 had where I got to know some of the names. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: And Chris Coles, that was later on, 22 but at that time, no. 23 Q: You don't have a -- a recollection 24 one (1) way or the other? 25 A: No.
2031 Q: That -- that's fair. 2 A: If he was -- he wasn't present. 3 Q: All right. I understand, or at least 4 I have some understanding of the sacred component of a 5 talking circle -- circle and I certainly won't ask you to 6 disclose anything that transpired during that circle. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: But, what I understand, sir, is that 9 following that circle, there was a different type of a 10 meeting, where in effect, a go-forward list was drawn up 11 about issues that had been identified or were identified 12 and needed to be discussed. 13 And what I wanted to do, sir, is I wanted 14 to take you to this page of notebooks -- notebook entry 15 that was written and it's -- it's not controversial, it 16 was written by a gentleman by the name of Tony Parkin, 17 who -- again, I don't think it's terribly controversial, 18 was in attendance that evening. And you'll see, sir, 19 that there is an entry towards the top of the page: 20 "Started with traditional ceremonies 21 which led to negotiations." 22 And then you'll see an entry at 23:15 or 23 11:15 p.m. and you'll see a list of what appear to be 24 issues and it says: 25 "Negotiated points for OPP to look into
2041 and those for First Nations to 2 Address." 3 And then there seems to be a series of 4 points that are listed; do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you'd agree with me that this 7 list was generated, not from anything in the talking 8 circle, but it arose during this discussion that took 9 place after the talking circle? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. So, you'd agree with me, 12 sir, that -- and again I -- I have, with respect, a 13 limited understanding of their traditions but I 14 understand that it would be inappropriate to make notes 15 of anything that occurred in the talking circle. 16 Would that be fair? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: All right. But you'd agree with me, 19 sir, that the list that has been generated by Mr. Parkin, 20 Superintendent Parkin, that list didn't arise from the 21 talking circle, it arose from the meeting that followed? 22 Yes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you, sir. Simply wanted to 25 clear up something that Chief Bressette had raised. You
2051 have spoken, sir, of a number of meetings that followed 2 the night of September the 6th. And I'm not going to, 3 you'll be happy to hear, take you through labouriously 4 one meeting after the other, but what I'd like to do is 5 identify certain themes that emerged from how those 6 meetings proceeded. 7 I took interest in a number of your 8 responses earlier today, that when you made certain 9 requests to the OPP you were met with a favourable 10 response to those requests? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you've indicated already that 13 from time to time you had dealing with Chris Coles? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- and do you recall a gentleman 16 by the name of Tony Parkin? 17 A: It sounds familiar -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- but I can't -- 20 Q: You also, I understand, sir, had 21 dealings with Jim Potts? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you also understood that -- that 24 Officer Potts, Inspector Potts actually, he is also First 25 Nations?
2061 A: Yes. 2 Q: And, again, you may or may not recall 3 but the other individual I'm going to suggest that you 4 had quite a bit of dealing with in these meetings was 5 another First Nations officer with the OPP by the name of 6 Paul Trivett? 7 A: I can't remember. 8 Q: Fair enough. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: I understand. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And would it be fair to say, sir, 13 that throughout your dealings with those representatives 14 from the OPP, that they demonstrated to you a respect for 15 the role that you were playing? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And would it be also fair to say, 18 sir, and I'm going to suggest it would, that they also 19 demonstrated a respect for the process that you were 20 facilitating? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there's no issue, sir, that 23 whenever it was necessary somebody from the OPP was 24 prepared to come and sit down at the table and listen? 25 A: That's right.
2071 Q: We've already heard this from another 2 witness, Miles Bressette, whom I understand also 3 participated in many of these meetings; would that be 4 fair? 5 A: That would be fair. 6 Q: He described Chris Coles and -- and 7 Tony Parkin as individuals who presented very much as 8 reasonable people; would you agree with that? 9 A: I would agree with that. 10 Q: And that they were sensitive to the 11 issues that were on the table? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I'm also going to suggest to you, 14 sir, that in your dealings with the representatives from 15 the OPP in those difficult days that followed, they 16 demonstrated a respect for the various participants who 17 came to those discussions, so not just you but the other 18 participants? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Thank you, sir. If I could take you, 21 sir, to Tab 12 -- my mistake, Tab 18, sir. 22 My Friend, Ms. Vella, referred you to a 23 celebratory occasion that took place on November the 8th, 24 1995, and you advised Ms. Vella that you were not in 25 attendance on that occasion?
2081 A: That's right. 2 Q: All right. I note about halfway down 3 that either yourself or Marvin Connors, it was 4 anticipated that one (1) of you would be delivering 5 remarks, can I assume that it, indeed, was Mr. Connors 6 who spoke on your behalf? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And I -- I looked with 9 some interest at the item a little bit more than halfway 10 down, Presentation of Appreciation Plaques by Chief Miles 11 Bressette. 12 And was it your understanding, sir, that a 13 number of individuals were going to be honoured for the 14 role they played in the days and weeks following the 15 incident of September the 6th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you understood, sir, that on 18 behalf of the peacekeepers, Marvin Connors was going to 19 be receiving recognition by way of an award? 20 A: I wasn't aware of that. 21 Q: You weren't aware of that. 22 A: No. 23 Q: But you were aware that awards were 24 being granted? 25 A: Yes.
2091 Q: You'll see, sir, on the agenda that 2 both Chris Coles and Jim Potts were also honoured; were 3 you aware of that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. Having regard to what 6 you've already told us about your impressions that were 7 left by the representatives of the OPP, I trust it 8 wouldn't surprise you that these gentlemen were being 9 honoured in the way that is reflected at that ceremony? 10 A: What was the question again? 11 Q: Having regard to what you've already 12 told us about your own impressions -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- of gentlemen like Chris Coles, Jim 15 Potts, I trust it didn't surprise you that their work was 16 being honoured, as appears to be reflected in the 17 ceremony, the agenda of the ceremony? 18 A: It doesn't surprise me. 19 Q: Thank you. Finally, sir, I 20 would like to ask you about a portion of the video clip 21 and perhaps, on a wing and a prayer, we'll play the part 22 that I'm interested in. You'll have to appreciate, Mr. 23 Elijah, that sometimes technology fails us around here. 24 I want to play a part and I'm going to ask 25 you a few questions about it.
2101 A: Sure. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 4 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 5 6 Q: Now, Mr. Elijah, we heard just before 7 the image changes to show this receipt, a question that 8 sounds something like, What do you have, and a response 9 that certainly appears to sound like, A gas thing, and 10 then there is the shot to the receipt; did you hear that, 11 sir? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: Okay. If I were to suggest to you, 14 sir, that what's being shown is a gas receipt not a 15 liquor receipt, what would you have to say? 16 A: That's possible. 17 Q: It's possible. Okay. Keep going. 18 A: But most receipts will tell you on 19 top of where the receipt is coming from. 20 Q: Right. Now, my understanding, sir, 21 is that we don't have that receipt anymore, 22 unfortunately, so regrettably we can't look at it 23 closely. 24 A: I don't have anything. 25 Q: Thank you. That's good to know.
2111 Can I play that just a bit further. I 2 hear -- anticipate we're going to hear someone referring 3 to a date that is reflected on the receipt, and I just 4 want to make sure that's properly captured, Mr. 5 Commissioner, on the record. 6 7 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 8 9 Q: You'd agree with me that what appears 10 to be -- being said here is that the receipt reflects a 11 date of August the 10th? 12 A: It sounds like it, yes. 13 Q: Thank you. And I believe that the 14 time was 3:40 -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought I 16 heard 7:43. 17 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'm sorry. 18 Thank you. 7:43. Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Elijah, thank 19 you, sir. Those are all my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. 22 Mr. Roland...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Provided you 2 don't go until 7:00 or 8:00, I'd like to stay until we 3 finish your examination, Mr. Roland, if it's possible. 4 Well, we -- we have at least two (2) hours to go. I 5 mean, if you estimated two (2) hours we should be able to 6 manage it. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Elijah. My name 10 is Ian Roland. I act for the Ontario Provincial Police 11 Association. And I want to start to go through your 12 evidence as you gave it this morning to see if I can 13 understand better some parts of it. 14 You were asked by Ms. Vella about the -- 15 your role with the Confederacy or the Traditional -- the 16 Traditional Council. 17 And as I heard it you, from the 60's to 18 '81, held some sort of official or chief position; did I 19 get that right? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Okay. Can you tell us, was that with 22 respect to the Haudenosaunee or Longhouse? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And what was your 25 position in that period of time?
2131 A: It was the role of -- my grandfather 2 was a -- a hereditary chief. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And he got sick back in the 60's. 5 And so I held that position for him until those positions 6 were full -- filled. 7 Q: And you held that from the 60's to 8 '81? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: So it's a period of well over ten 11 (10) years? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And you've been 14 described, we see, from some material that you were taken 15 through earlier, as a war chief? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Were you a war chief? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Is there such a position in the 20 Haudenosaunee? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. So there's no such position, 23 traditional or other position that's ever been described 24 as a war chief? 25 A: No.
2141 Q: All right. Now, as I understand it, 2 the Haudenosaunee is -- is the Longhouse, it's the 3 Iroquois -- otherwise referred to as the Iroquois 4 Confederacy -- 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: -- of the Six Nations? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And I've had an opportunity to look 9 at its website. I take it you're familiar with its 10 computer website? 11 A: I'm aware of it. 12 Q: Yes. And -- and I -- I see on the 13 website that there is a -- a document entitled, 14 Haudenosaunee: People Building a Longhouse. 15 Is that the des -- is that the English 16 descriptor of what Haudenosaunee means; people building a 17 longhouse? 18 A: That's one (1) interpretation, yes. 19 Q: All right. Let me, if I could, my 20 assistant's going to give you a copy of the document that 21 I've taken off the Haudenosaunee website so -- for you to 22 identify? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: I've been corrected on the 25 pronunciation. Haudenosaunee, sorry.
2151 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You'll see I took this off the 4 website, in the bottom right-hand corner, yesterday. Do 5 you recognize that from the -- from the Haudenosaunee 6 website? 7 A: I haven't looked at it recently to 8 say but, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: This is what it would have. 11 Q: And one (1) of the documents that it 12 has available to us to review, you'll see from the first 13 page if you click on it, is a document called, Threats To 14 Traditional Governments. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And are you familiar with this 19 document? Have you read it before or seen it before? 20 A: I've seen something similar to it. 21 Q: All right. And it talks about, in 22 some detail, what it describes as the: 23 "Anti-sovereignty actions of the 24 warrior society" 25 And you'll see that it talks about the
2161 fact, in the first paragraph of that document, if you 2 look in the very first paragraph the -- it says: 3 "The Great Law of Peace is very clear 4 that the purposes of human life is to 5 promote peace. As the Haudenosaunee, 6 we are the people who build a longhouse 7 of peace. We were to bury the weapons 8 of war and not shed blood among one 9 another." 10 Now, I take it that's -- it seems to me, 11 to that point, entirely consistent with what you've told 12 us? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Right? And then it goes on: 15 "The warrior societies within our 16 communities have subverted the Great 17 Law and have sought -- 18 I think that should be, "nothing," 19 -- short of the total destruction of 20 the Haudenosaunee Council of Chiefs for the mere purpose 21 of making money for themselves." 22 Now, whether that's true or not, and I'm 23 not going to get into a debate with you, Mr. Elijah, 24 about the truth of that. What I gather that tells us is 25 there is, within the -- the Six Nations, within the
2171 Haudenosaunee community, a controversy about the warrior 2 societies? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that this document reflects at 5 least one (1) view, it appears to be -- it appears to be 6 the traditional longhouse view, of that controversy? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And what it says, if you 9 go down to the third paragraph, it says: 10 "The warrior societies are dedicated to 11 provoking a violent showdown with 12 Canadian authorities in order to create 13 bloodshed that would then give 14 themselves leverage to negotiate their 15 view of sovereignty." 16 Now, whether that's true or not, again, I 17 take it that's a view held by some about the warrior 18 society? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: All right. And that some -- and 21 those -- some of those people that hold those views are 22 within the Haudenosaunee community itself? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Now, it talks about the - 25 - the creation of the modern warrior societies, beginning
2181 with the Mohawk Warrior Society and it, again, later 2 talks about the Oneida Warrior Society and what it tells 3 us, at least from this -- the point of view of this 4 document, is that there is a conflict between these 5 modern warrior societies or groups of individuals within 6 the Haudenosaunee community and their traditional 7 Council; is that -- is that an accurate description of 8 the controversy? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And the document itself 11 reviews, and I'm not going to take you through it, a 12 whole lot of incidents and allegations and so on. I 13 looked through the document to see if your name appeared 14 anywhere in it and actually it does at the very last 15 page. 16 And I just want to ask you what it's 17 referring to. If you turn to the very last page of the 18 document, go right to the last page. 19 A: You mean this pile here at the last 20 page? 21 Q: Yes, the whole pile, yeah, page 25, 22 and you'll see about halfway down it -- it has your name: 23 "Bruce Elijah, Terry Doxtator and Bob 24 Antone conducted ceremonies for the 25 warriors inside the detox centre.
2191 Elijah used medicine masks to protect 2 the warriors and other rituals he said 3 were to remove their anger and hatred." 4 Now, do you know what incident that's 5 referring to? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay, can you tell us what that is, 8 what that refers to? 9 A: No. 10 Q: You don't -- sorry, I thought you 11 said you knew what it -- 12 A: I knew what it -- what it means and 13 what it stands for, but I'm not going to explain to you 14 what the ceremonies are. 15 Q: Okay, I don't mean necessarily the 16 ceremony itself, but in what context was this? It refers 17 to a detox centre, what's that? Was it -- 18 A: You don't know what a detox centre 19 is? 20 Q: Well -- well, is it a -- is it a -- 21 is it a native institution or is it a white person's 22 institution or what is -- what are we talking about? 23 A: It's a native institution. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: It's called Wehonandogo (phonetic).
2201 It's a treatment centre. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: And that's where the people went to 4 during the Oka crisis to seek shelter -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- and so that's where they moved 7 into was that. It was a treatment centre. 8 Q: Okay. All right. So, it's a 9 treatment centre and -- and you carried out some 10 spiritual activities, I take it, at that place or -- 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: -- the natives who were there? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: Can we mark this as the next exhibit, 15 please? P -- 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-282. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-282: Haudenosaunee (People 19 building a Longhouse) Home 20 Web site, 25 pages of 21 official source of news and 22 information re: The 23 Haudenosaunee 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
2211 Q: Now, you were asked by Ms. Vella 2 about the governing structure of the Oneida and I didn't 3 really understand, within the Oneida nation itself, what 4 the governing structure is. 5 Could you tell us just how life is 6 structured or arranged within the -- within the Oneida 7 nation in terms of persons with various responsibilities? 8 I gather you -- you were a chief and you said there were 9 what, two (2) other chiefs? 10 A: There's nine (9) chiefs -- 11 Q: Sorry. 12 A: -- within the Oneida nation. 13 Q: Within the Oneida nation? All right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And what's the role of the nine (9) 16 chiefs in the governing structure? What -- what's their 17 role or responsibility? 18 A: As issues arise within our community, 19 concerns, is that how do we address it? 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And does the -- do the nine (9) 23 chiefs meet together in -- in a group to deal with 24 issues? 25 A: That's what a Council consists of,
2221 yes. 2 Q: All right. And that's the Oneida 3 Council as opposed to the Haudenosaunee Council, is it? 4 A: There -- other nations within the 5 confederacy have more -- 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: -- more chiefs than -- than the nine 8 (9). 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And are there other persons with 12 responsibilities -- governing responsibilities within the 13 Oneida nation, apart from the chiefs? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And who -- what are they? 16 A: They are -- the roles that we have -- 17 or the names and titles that we give them are -- are 18 faith keepers. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And so they kind of look after the -- 21 the everyday issues and then the things that pertain to 22 the nation -- nation level or out of that, then it comes 23 to the -- the Council -- the Council of Chiefs. 24 Q: All right. And so there's -- there's 25 the Chiefs, there's the Council of Chiefs, there's the
2231 faith keepers, are there any other persons with 2 responsibility within the governing structure of the 3 Oneida nation? 4 A: Yes, there is. 5 Q: Who else? 6 A: There are many. 7 Q: And what are those? 8 A: We have people -- if it's 9 agriculture, if it's going out hunting, if it's fishing, 10 if it's gathering. There's people that are designated to 11 be able to -- again, to report back to the Council that 12 those are being carried out. 13 Q: I see. All right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And with respect to the Oneida 16 warrior society that's been referred to in P-282, how did 17 -- how did it, if at all, relate to the Oneida governing 18 structure or Council; did it have any -- 19 A: It doesn't. 20 Q: It's separate and apart, is it? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And has it been from time 23 to time in conflict with or in disagreement with the 24 traditional Council? 25 A: No.
2241 Q: No? It hasn't? 2 A: No. 3 Q: But, it has no structural or 4 governing relationship one or the other; they're two (2) 5 separate entities are they? 6 A: Two (2) separate entities. 7 Q: Okay. And have you been or are you a 8 member of the Oneida Warrior Society, this separate 9 entity, as well? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Have you ever been a member of it? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. Is there any particular reason 14 why you didn't join it? 15 A: Because of how it was brought up and 16 the Nation that I belong to, is that I cannot be of any 17 organization. 18 Q: I see. It's inconsistent with being 19 a traditional Oneida Native? 20 A: That's right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: See, again, those positions that we 25 hold are -- are within our teachings, where you're chosen
2251 because of the lineage of where you come from, the family 2 that you come from. And so many of today's society is -- 3 is, you know, there are many organizations out there that 4 exist and, you know, those who wish to follow the 5 traditions, we cannot be a part of that because it might 6 come into conflict with who we are within our teachings. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, you say that you were introduced 11 into the activity of peacekeeper and negotiator when you 12 were, I guess, thirteen (13) years old, in 1958. And 13 what was that? 14 How did you -- how did you get introduced 15 at -- at the age of thirteen (13) into the role of 16 negotiator and peacekeeper? 17 A: In 1958 there was a lot of concerns 18 that was happening within Six Nation Country. Because in 19 -- my goodness, was it '59 -- '59 was the beginning of 20 the RCMP and the OPP coming into the communities and 21 confiscating the records and our sacred bundles. 22 Q: All right. And -- and at thirteen 23 (13) you had some role to play? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what was that at -- at age
2261 thirteen (13)? 2 A: As learning the process and, again, 3 to see what I was learning, and to -- my grandfathers 4 allowed me to -- to sit with them and to question parts 5 of what I didn't understand. So, I was very much 6 involved. 7 Q: You were really as an observer, I 8 take it, were you? 9 A: As an observer. 10 Q: Now, you were asked about the Land 11 Rights Committee and you said that that was used by your 12 Nation to educate our people about the land? 13 A: Create an awareness. 14 Q: Yes. Okay, create an awareness. And 15 -- and that you were involved and -- and that committee 16 was involved in land claims research and treaty research 17 and so on? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And in the course of its work did it 20 also bring awareness of land claim issues to bear -- or 21 to other Nations apart from the Oneida people? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, for example, did it come to the 24 people at Stony Point and -- and Kettle Point? 25 A: Yes.
2271 Q: And what was its -- first of all, can 2 you tell us, were you part of that process? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You were part of that committee and 5 part of the process that came to Kettle and Stony Point? 6 A: Not at that time, no. At that time 7 we were only travelling through the Six Nation 8 communities. 9 Q: All right. When you were involved? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And -- but you say at 12 some later stage that Land Claim Committee did come to 13 Kettle and Stony Point? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Or did it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: So, did it ever then come to -- did 20 that committee ever come to -- to bring awareness to the 21 Kettle and Stony Point people about lands -- land issues? 22 A: Not that I'm aware of. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: But, the word gets around is that -- 25 that we are into looking into research -- doing
2281 researching and so there's a lot of -- when you're doing 2 a research there's a lot of documents and papers that we 3 find that -- that are from some of the communities that 4 we're aware of. 5 And so we usually get in touch with any of 6 the community members that do any, sort of, research for 7 their communities and give them that information. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. Well, you've told us that 9 the committee was active from the early '70s for about 10 fifteen (15) years to the mid-'80s? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And I take it the committee wasn't 13 active after that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. And so during that period 16 of time, you don't know one way or the other whether the 17 committee involved itself at all in bringing awareness of 18 land issues to the Kettle and Stony point people? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. I gather that -- was it 21 during that period in your -- and your involvement with 22 the -- with the committee -- the land rights committee, 23 that you gave -- you developed the view about the 24 legality or illegality of -- of taking of the land by -- 25 by non-natives?
2291 Is that when you came to understand and 2 develop your views about the land? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: You've said elsewhere: 5 "There is not one (1) inch of this land 6 that's ever been sold, has ever been 7 given away. Not one (1) inch and I'll 8 give you a quick teaching on how 9 illegal that is and how wrong it is." 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I under -- I believe 13 that that cite is -- is quoted from the Indigenous 14 Knowledge Forum and I can be corrected if I'm wrong? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, it is. 16 OBJ MS. SUSAN VELLA: We object to any cross- 17 examination based on the evidence or the information, I 18 should say, given at the Indigenous Knowledge Forum. 19 As you know, Commissioner, you gave 20 direction to all parties that there were to be no 21 questions by lawyers from Part 1 of the speakers 22 concerning Part 1 issues. 23 The reason for that was to promote the 24 full and free disclosure and discussion of ideas, 25 concepts and information. It is therefore improper to
2301 now cross-examine Mr. Elijah on comments he made within 2 the context of the Indigenous Knowledge Forum. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 4 the quote was something he may have said this morning. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, it is -- it's from 6 that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 8 think it's proper to cross-examine on anything that came 9 out of the Indigenous Knowledge Forum. It was understood 10 that it was not on the record for that purpose. We're 11 going to have other consultations and we want to promote 12 a free and full discussion. 13 I'd be grateful if you did not use it as a 14 cross-examining tool. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: Well, let me then ask you in the 19 general sense then, your view of the legality or 20 illegality of the taking of the land by non-natives? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I don't know -- 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I want -- I what 23 to know about this Witness' view of -- of -- we're 24 talking about a land issue. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you ask
2311 him his views, exclusive of this -- 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all -- with all 3 respect, Commissioner, I don't see the relevance with 4 respect to the role that this Witness played in relation 5 to this matter. Particularly after Ms. Tuck-Jackson took 6 him through the good relations he had with the OPP and 7 others, I don't understand the relevance of his views of 8 taking of land. 9 I don't see that it -- it impacts on his-- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 11 difficult time also. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, let me just ask 13 some questions then to lay the groundwork on this. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: You've told us, Mr. Elijah, that 17 you've been involved in a number of disputes and you took 18 Ms. Vella through them; Wounded Knee, Moss Lake, Williams 19 Lake, Akwesasne, Gustafson Lake, Big Mountain, Parry 20 Island, Oka, all of those various disputes. 21 And weren't they all land disputes at 22 their base? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: They were all about land? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just to show
2321 that he had some experience with matters. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, and more 4 importantly, you'll recall, Commissioner, that the 5 witness very clearly said that he was not involved in the 6 protests or occupations but rather came in to render 7 assistance after they were commenced when requested to 8 facilitate a resolution to the matter. 9 He wasn't there as an occupant -- or 10 occupier or a protestor. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 12 don't want to go into all of those disputes in detail. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 14 My Friend, raised this Witness' involvement in those and 15 I think it's fair that in cross-examination I can examine 16 into that involvement. I didn't raise these issues in 17 cross-examination -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 19 understand. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- Ms. Vella did, this 21 Witness did. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're -- 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: And if you're telling me 24 I'm not to cross-examine about them I will respect that, 25 but I don't understand the process we're engaged in here,
2331 then. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 3 don't? I'm sure you do, Mr. Roland. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I don't if you 5 tell me I can't cross-examine on the very issues My 6 Friend raises. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 8 can ask some questions, Mr. Roland, but I don't want to 9 go into those disputes in detail. Ms. Vella raised them 10 and I think you're entitled to ask something about them, 11 but I don't want you to go into them in any great detail. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Well, so 13 far I haven't done that. I've just -- the Witness has 14 acknowledged that they were all, at their base, land 15 disputes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 17 that's really all that's relevant. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, maybe it is and 19 maybe it isn't and if you tell me that's as far as I can 20 go, then I'll -- I'll leave it there, but I think there's 21 more relevance. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I think, you know 23 -- with -- with respect, I think that what is relevant 24 based on the evidence that we heard this morning is the - 25 - the Witness' role in relation to these matters and the
2341 role was not in relation to asserting a land claim or 2 right, which seems to be the premise of the questions. 3 I'm not suggesting that My Friend can't 4 cross-examine at all on his involvement, but the question 5 he asked didn't go to his involvement. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Ms. 7 Vella's putting it correctly, Mr. Roland. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, are 9 you telling me that I can't examine into the attitude or 10 mind set or view or principles that this Witness brings 11 to his involvement in any of this exercises? 12 Is that what you're telling me, because I 13 just need to know that? That's where I'm going. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 15 that's what I'm telling you. I'm telling you that his 16 role is rather limited from his testimony that he gave 17 this morning and respecting his role, I think Ms. Vella 18 raised it in it's legitimate area for cross-examination. 19 So, I'm not sure how far you're going and 20 what you're going to do, but if you get into any of these 21 disputes in great detail, I don't think that's relevant. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Well, let me see if I can cut to the 25 chase, Mr. Elijah; you're hearing a bit of a controversy
2351 between the Commissioner and me about this. 2 What I'm interested in -- in is the view 3 you bring to these disputes, in particular, we'll get to 4 the Stoney Point dispute, but the view you bring to this 5 dispute about the land and about the propriety or 6 impropriety of it being occupied by other than natives. 7 And I take it you do bring a view to those 8 -- to the dispute, you have a view about it? 9 A: Do you have a mother? 10 Q: I certainly do. 11 A: Then did you hear my testimony about 12 the mother? 13 Q: This is the -- which testimony is 14 that? 15 A: Apparently you choose what to hear. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: Because at the same one that 18 you're trying to raise, I gave a teaching on what the 19 mother means to us. 20 Q: Well, the Commissioner tells me I 21 can't get into that, so -- 22 A: Okay, so we'll go as far as that. 23 Q: But, let me ask -- but I want -- I 24 want you to -- I want you to answer my question if you 25 could.
2361 Did you come to the disputes that -- these 2 land disputes -- the some nine (9) you've -- you've 3 identified with Ms. Vella as well as the one at Stoney 4 Point with your own view about the propriety or 5 impropriety of the occupation of that land by non- 6 natives? 7 A: What I've done is that I've studied-- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: -- and so I can prove when I bring an 10 issue up, I can back it up. It's not a theory, it's not 11 an idea, it's a fact. 12 Q: Right. And -- and what does -- how 13 does that answer my question? Did you have a view or 14 not? 15 A: I always have a view. 16 Q: All right. And what was your view 17 about the propriety or impropriety of the -- of the land 18 disputes that you told us you were engaged with? 19 OBJ MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I have 20 an objection. Mr. Elijah has already testified with 21 respect to what his role was at these disputes, including 22 the one at issue here. 23 If My Friend can tie that or show somehow 24 how the world view of the Witness is relevant to how he 25 discharged his role, that would be one (1) thing, but I
2371 don't see that connection having been made. 2 What is important is what informed the 3 role he played and his role was not in advancing a land 4 claim of any kind. It was to come in to assist with 5 respect to resolving a dispute -- facilitating a 6 resolution of a dispute, not advocating a position, as I 7 understood it one way or another. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 9 right. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, let's -- can I 12 explore that? Am I allowed to explore that, Mr. 13 Commissioner? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you're 15 allowed to explore it. No one is saying you can't cross- 16 examine, Mr. Roland. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. All right. All 18 right. Let -- let me explore that. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: Are what you -- what you saying, Mr. 22 Elijah, that when you came into -- let's deal with Stoney 23 Point -- when you came to Stoney Point as a, first of 24 all, as a -- an instructor in the cross-cultural 25 awareness training program that DND put on, that you came
2381 there without any -- without expressing or advancing any 2 view about the propriety or impropriety of the occupation 3 of that land? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And so you didn't speak to the issue 6 about whether it was appropriate or inappropriate for DND 7 to continue to occupy the land? 8 A: No. 9 Q: It wasn't something that you 10 addressed at all? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. And then you say that -- 13 and you were -- you were there an instructor, you weren't 14 at that stage a mediator, were you? 15 A: As an instructor, yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And so what were you 17 instructing? What -- what -- if you weren't expressing 18 your view about the land itself and the land claims, what 19 were you instructing about? 20 A: What spirituality is. 21 Q: Right. And what's that? The -- is 22 that the connection between the Native and the land, that 23 spiritual connection? 24 A: Our connection with the world around 25 us, with creation.
2391 Q: Now -- all right. Let me just take 2 you then to that particular event. We'll go to Tab 1, 3 which is the first one in time, of the documents that 4 have been produced in your binder. And... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now, do you -- do you know why it is 9 that you were invited? Did anybody tell you why you were 10 particularly invited to this session? 11 A: I asked myself the same question many 12 times over. 13 Q: Did you ask -- 14 A: What do I know? 15 Q: -- did you ask anybody else? Did you 16 ask Captain Smith? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what was his answer? 19 A: The history of the work that I do is 20 fair to everyone. 21 Q: All right. And that history is 22 described in this document, at least in part, as being: 23 "An Elder-recognized Native negotiator, 24 one (1) of three (3) chiefs 25 negotiators, mediators for Oka."
2401 That's how it's described in this 2 document. Is that what you're referring to? 3 A: That's one (1) of them. 4 Q: Yes. One (1) of what? One (1) of 5 the land disputes that we're talking about? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And so did you then talk 8 about land disputes, being there for that purpose? 9 A: At that particular meeting, no. 10 Q: No. It appears that the meeting, as 11 we know, took two (2) days, July 13 and 14. And on the 12 first day there appears to have been already developed 13 the first day a consensus within the group that something 14 more should be done than simply a cultural awareness 15 training program? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Isn't that fair? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: When you first arrived the idea was 20 simply to make the Military personnel at the Ipperwash 21 Base more aware of a -- the Native point of view? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Right. But it quickly developed into 24 something more than that, didn't it? 25 A: Yes.
2411 Q: And that something more was the 2 notion that -- which I gather you put forward with Bob 3 Antone, that the two (2) of your could assist in 4 resolving what appeared to be a crisis or developing 5 crisis; isn't that fair? 6 A: That's in the direction it was 7 starting to go, yes. 8 Q: Well, it has it in the document that 9 you and Mr. Antone offered yourselves as mediators to 10 assist in trying to de-escalate what appeared to be a -- 11 a crisis that was developing; is that fair? 12 A: I don't remember appointing ourselves 13 to that. We never appointed ourselves to anything like 14 that. 15 Q: You say you didn't make that offer? 16 A: No. All we had said was that if 17 there was anything that we can support in the process by 18 all means, then we can debate on that, whether we will be 19 able to or not. 20 Q: And in that process, did you -- did 21 you participate, as this document seems to indicate, in a 22 discussion about a plan of action, to develop a plan of 23 action to enable the military to mediate its way out of 24 what -- the situation they -- it found itself in at that 25 time?
2421 A: I wasn't aware of that. 2 Q: Because that's what it -- it says, 3 you'll see, at the top of the second page, if you turn to 4 the top of the -- it's actually the third page of Tab 1 5 at the very top. 6 And I think Ms. Vella read this to you is, 7 that it appears at the very top in 3-C that during this 8 training process that amongst the people who were there, 9 which included you and Bob Antone, a plan of action was 10 developed. 11 And then it sets out what the plan is -- 12 or it's purpose: 13 "To immediate -- of immediately 14 reducing tension between the Stoney 15 Point group and the military at the 16 Camp." 17 Did you understand that that was what was 18 being discussed at that meeting? 19 A: I know that it was going in that 20 direction. But coming into it, prior to that, I don't -- 21 you know, we were -- I was asked to come in and to give - 22 - to do an opening and to be able to -- begin to -- you 23 know, sensitizing of -- of our roles and 24 responsibilities. 25 Q: Well, I assume that's what everybody
2431 thought you were doing going in. What appears is that 2 having started this sensitizing process, it then changed 3 direction -- well, I shouldn't say changed, it added to 4 its -- 5 A: I didn't change that. 6 Q: Sorry. I -- I think I mis -- 7 misspoke. I don't think changed direction, but it 8 expanded from not being just -- 9 A: That's what the first -- 10 Q: -- an awareness? 11 A: -- that's what any meeting is all 12 about is to do -- to see, are we addressing to the wants 13 and the needs. I -- we can't offer anything until we 14 hear the evidence out. 15 We can't draw a conclusion. We can't tell 16 the people about what the meaning of where it should go. 17 Q: Fair enough. But is it fair then, 18 Mr. Elijah, to say that the -- the meeting -- the purpose 19 of the meeting expan -- seemed to expand as the meeting 20 went on to seek to develop a plan of action to mediate in 21 order to enable the military to -- to extract itself from 22 the situation? 23 A: I'm only assuming again, assuming, as 24 you are, is that we were asked to come in because of our 25 involvement with the Oka crisis.
2441 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: I'm assuming that there was more to 3 then, than just that meeting at that time. 4 I -- that's all I can say at this point in 5 time. 6 Q: Well, what I -- I think that we're 7 saying the same thing. What you -- what you're telling 8 me, I gather, is that this meeting recognized or appeared 9 to recognize you had some experience, through the Oka 10 crisis, of mediating between conflicting parties and that 11 this was something that was -- then that expertise or 12 experience of yours to be used to develop on this -- on 13 the ground at Stoney Point a plan of action? 14 A: That seems to be. 15 Q: Okay. So, you're with me there? 16 A: I rest my case. 17 Q: And the plan of action -- the plan of 18 action is set out here, and Ms. Vella's taken you through 19 it, I just want to understand it a little more. 20 The first -- the first item, you'll see 21 (a), if you look on page 2 of 4. Under 3-C, you'll see 22 (a) is a meeting: 23 "A Native Circle will be held on the 24 Oneida Reserve." 25 Is that your reserve? Is that what
2451 they're referring to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you offer up the reserve as a 4 neutral territory for the purpose of the meeting? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And it says, "neutral 7 territory"; what does that mean in this context? 8 A: Well, it means that there was certain 9 parties that would not go to -- from Kettle Point to 10 Stoney Point. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So it's neutral -- 14 A: And there was certain parties from 15 Stoney Point that wouldn't go to Kettle Point. 16 Q: I see. So it's neutral between 17 Kettle Point and Stoney Point? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: All right. And it goes on to say: 20 "The meeting would be conducted over 21 five (5) days." 22 Was that a suggestion on your part that a 23 Native Circle needed to last some length of time? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And why five (5) days?
2461 Is that how long these circles tend to last? 2 A: That pretty well -- that pretty well 3 gives you a good idea -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- to see, you know, come to some 6 conclusion. 7 Q: And then it says: 8 "It will start on the 26th of August in 9 conjunction with the new moon." 10 It take it, again, that's your suggestion 11 because the 26th of August is the new moon? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: All right. And then it goes on: 14 "It will be attended by a number of 15 people." 16 You and Bob Antone. And was there 17 discussion at this session on the 13th of 14th of July 18 about the other people that needed to attend this -- this 19 Native Circle? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I gather from listening to your 22 evidence this morning that what you, as a mediator wanted 23 was all -- representatives of all of the various parties 24 or interest groups? 25 A: That's right.
2471 Q: To have an effective mediation you 2 have to have everybody there? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Or a representative of all the 5 interests? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And so is it -- and did you make that 8 point, that that was necessary to make this Native Circle 9 function effectively? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: All right. And did you then discuss 12 with the people present at this session what the various 13 interests or parties were, to make sure you had them all? 14 A: We didn't -- at that point in time we 15 didn't have the list from Stoney Point. 16 Q: I -- I'm not talking about names -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- for the moment, I'm just talking 19 about the -- the interests. Did you discuss what the 20 interests were? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And I see, and you've 23 been asked about this a bit, one of the interests seems 24 to be the radical element of Stoney Point and another 25 interest seems to be the traditional part of Stoney
2481 Point. You were asked about that. 2 And did you recognize that there were or 3 did someone explain to you that there were two (2) 4 elements amongst the Stoney Point group that needed to be 5 represented? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you -- were aware 8 of that at the time or were you informed by someone of 9 that? 10 A: I was aware of it. 11 Q: And how was it you were aware of it? 12 A: In any situation you're always going 13 to get many different points of view. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And, again, that's why we have the 16 meetings, is to be able to understand and to be able to 17 address to all of them. 18 Q: Yeah. No, I understand that. And 19 that's necessary to have all the various points of view. 20 But let's just focus, if we could, Mr. Elijah, for a 21 moment on the Stoney Point group. You've identified that 22 you knew that there was a radical element and a 23 traditional element -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't think he did 25 actually --
2491 THE WITNESS: I didn't -- I didn't say 2 that. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With respect, I 4 believe the evidence was, was that he didn't know of a 5 radical and a traditional element when he was asked that. 6 It's my recollection of his evidence. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I think he just 8 said now that he -- he -- just to my questions -- 9 THE WITNESS: Okay, let me rephrase that. 10 Okay? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: In any situation when you're talking 15 to people, you said traditional and you also said 16 radical. 17 Q: Yeah. That's what the document says. 18 A: Yeah. But that's what you mentioned 19 to me. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Okay. What I'm saying here is that, 22 you know, you can use many labels and you can use many 23 titles in that process. My thing is to be able to hear 24 that and to see if I can address it. 25 Q: All right.
2501 A: Okay. So we're not putting it to 2 radical and we're not putting it to traditional alone, 3 it's any concern. 4 Q: So if I understand then, at this 5 meeting on the 13th and 14th of July, from the people 6 that spoke, I take it you concluded from that that there 7 were two (2) elements at the Stoney -- within the 8 Stoney -- 9 A: There were many more than one (1) 10 element. 11 Q: More than one (1) element. Okay. 12 And had you known that before July 13? 13 A: It's part of my practice, is to be 14 able to understand that there's going to be more than one 15 (1) point of view. 16 Q: No. In particular though, did you 17 know there was two (2) different points of view amongst 18 the Stoney Point group before July 13? 19 A: Let me come back and rephrase that 20 again. In my job, is to be able to try to understand the 21 many elements and concerns that are going to be there. 22 That's my job. 23 Q: I see. And so are you telling me 24 then before you went to the meeting on July 13th, you 25 informed yourself --
2511 A: My door is open. 2 Q: Sorry? 3 A: I said, my door is open. 4 Q: And did someone come through that 5 door and tell you before July 13th that there were than 6 two (2) groups at Stoney Point? 7 A: No. No. 8 Q: So, I still can't understand then, 9 Mr. Elijah, whether before July 13th whether you knew 10 there were two (2) groups with different points of view 11 amongst the Stoney Point group or not? 12 A: Do you have any children? 13 Q: Of course. 14 A: How many do you have? 15 Q: Mr. Elijah, this is about -- 16 A: More than one? 17 Q: Just asking you the question? 18 A: Okay. I want to -- I want you so you 19 can understand. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: If you have more than one (1) child 22 you're going to have many different points of views as to 23 the wants and the needs. 24 Q: All right. So are you telling -- 25 A: Let's make it simple.
2521 Q: So are you telling us, Mr. Elijah, 2 that you simply assumed that amongst the Stoney Point 3 group there were two (2) elements, a traditional -- 4 A: As I said before, I leave the door 5 open. 6 Q: Now, if we carry on with the 7 document, Mr. Elijah, you'll see at the bottom of page 2 8 of 4 it refers to: 9 "The meeting will be conducted ..." 10 This is the meeting that is, at least 11 tentatively, scheduled for August 26th: 12 "... will be conducted with a view to 13 determining the following..." 14 And it sets out a number of objectives. 15 Were those objectives discussed at the July 13 and 14 16 meeting? 17 A: I know that there was, again to come 18 to the next meeting, or the meeting that we were planning 19 on was that there were certain concerns that the -- you 20 know, plan of action was going to be developed. 21 Q: Sorry, I don't know I got an answer 22 to the question. Were those objectives ones that were 23 raised or discussed at the July 13 and 14 meeting? 24 A: As I said. There was some concerns 25 and there were -- as to the continuation of another
2531 meeting as to what those discussions would be. 2 Q: I see. So -- so -- 3 A: And up to that point, I don't know 4 what those were. 5 Q: So are you saying that there were 6 some -- there were some discussion about this but it 7 wasn't concluded, is that what you're telling us? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just for my 11 benefit, Mr. Roland, when was the first time that you saw 12 this document that we're referring to now? 13 THE WITNESS: Two (2) weeks ago. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) 15 weeks ago? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But, you 18 didn't see it in '95 when the meeting took place? 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just 21 needed to know that, Mr. Roland. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: I understand that. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: And we have -- Mr. Elijah, I take it
2541 you didn't take any notes of the meetings in July -- on 2 July 13 and 14, '95? 3 A: No. No. 4 Q: And these appear to be notes that 5 were made either at or following that meeting. They're 6 dated -- this document appears to be dated July 14th -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: '95. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: '95. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: So it's made -- it's a 12 contemporaneous document recording what, from all we can 13 tell, what appears to have occurred at those meetings. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What Captain 15 Smith wrote about -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what 18 occurred at the meeting. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, what Captain Smith 20 wrote. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if his 22 recollection ten (10) years later isn't exactly the same, 23 it shouldn't surprise you or me. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: No. But it's certainly 25 helpful to refresh his memory, I -- I -- Mr.
2551 Commissioner, about what occurred and didn't occur. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, when 3 he gives you a general answer to a specific question, you 4 seem to think that he's not answering the question. And 5 I think he may be. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: Did you understand that the objective 9 of the meeting and your role as the mediator was to, as 10 this document says: 11 "Develop an orderly handover of the -- 12 of Camp Ipperwash once the cleanup was 13 completed."? 14 A: I didn't know at the time that this 15 was -- this was what the meeting was. I didn't know. 16 Q: You didn't understand coming out of 17 that meeting that that was what you were going -- on a 18 go-forward basis, going to try and assist in achieving? 19 A: Our -- what I was asked to do was to 20 come into sensitize the Military of what our ceremonies 21 and what our peoples and how we carry out and how we 22 support each other in times of need. That was my role. 23 Q: Yeah. No, we -- I -- I understand 24 that, Mr. Elijah, but I think you've agreed to me that 25 once the meeting occurred, it segued into an -- an
2561 additional objective and, indeed, that was, I thought 2 what you agreed, was the reason for the August 26th 3 tentatively scheduled meeting. 4 A: The first meeting was, again, I 5 didn't know that there -- there was -- looking in the 6 future that there was going to be future meetings. 7 As far as I know, coming to that meeting 8 was a -- was a two (2) day meeting and we would address 9 to those issues that we were asked to do. 10 Q: I understand that, but let me move 11 you beyond or forward in time from before the meeting of 12 July 13 and 14 to the meeting of July 13 and 14, because 13 what you've already told us is that you understood there 14 was to be, at least tentatively, a meeting scheduled for 15 August 26th and did you pick the day because of the new 16 moon? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: So, by the time you got to the July 19 13/14 meeting and that was underway, you would agree with 20 me that this is already going beyond simply a cultural 21 awareness training program, isn't it? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Okay. And when you come to suggest a 24 date of August 26th/05 for a meeting and you as a -- as 25 the voluntary or, at least you've agreed to be the
2571 mediator at that meeting with Bob Antone, you, I take it, 2 understand there's a purpose for the meeting? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the purpose in this document 5 appears to be to allow the Military to -- to leave Camp 6 Ipperwash after the cleanup, provide a means of insuring 7 the cleanup and allow it to leave and get it -- get out 8 of what was a tense situation. Isn't that so? 9 A: I don't think we talked about that. 10 Q: You didn't talk about what? 11 A: What you just got through saying. 12 Q: You didn't talk about -- about a plan 13 to -- to develop a -- a working plan to -- to remove the 14 -- for the Military to remove itself from Camp Ipperwash? 15 A: That's something that was information 16 that they were saying that, you know, those things were - 17 - would happen, could happen, might happen, but it had 18 nothing to do with our presentation. 19 Q: No, I know, but remember we've -- you 20 and I have already moved beyond the presentation to the 21 purpose of the meeting of August 26th, right? 22 A: What came out of that meeting was 23 that we found out that there needs to be future meetings. 24 Q: Yeah. For what purpose? 25 A: To be able to address to the other
2581 concerns that they had. 2 Q: And what were those? 3 A: I don't know. Up to that point, I 4 didn't know. 5 Q: You had no idea what the Military's 6 concerns were? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You didn't understand that you were 9 there because there was tension between the Military and 10 the occupiers at Stoney Point? 11 A: I was aware of it. 12 Q: Yes? And were you aware at that 13 stage that the Military, or the government had agreed 14 that the -- they would give over Camp Ipperwash to the -- 15 to the natives? 16 A: I was aware of it. I was aware of 17 it. 18 Q: And were you aware that the Military 19 was looking for a way to -- to have an orderly removal or 20 exit from Camp Ipperwash? 21 A: Again, I was aware of it. 22 Q: And you were aware that -- that one 23 (1) of the problems was the environmental assessment and 24 -- and the environmental work that needed to be done? 25 A: I was aware of it.
2591 Q: Okay. So, you were aware of all of 2 that and did you therefore understand that the -- the 3 purpose of this meeting on August 26th with the people 4 that are set out in Exhibit P-271 was to develop a way of 5 achieving those objectives? 6 A: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we're 8 going to go on for some time I'm going to ask for a break 9 now. We all need a break now. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 4:17 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 4:27 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 20 when we start at 9:00 we usually end at 4:30. I thought 21 we might go a little longer. I'm tired. I know the 22 Witness is tired. We still have Mr. Hourigan to go. 23 So, we're going to go at quarter to 5:00 24 and we're going to have a little celebration after that, 25 that we had planned before. And if you're not finished,
2601 and I don't expect you will be, we'll have Mr. Elijah 2 come back at some future time when we can arrange it. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 5 to rush you or examine him when we're all tired. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: Mr. Elijah, you're going to have to 10 put up with me for another twenty (20) minutes. 11 Let me, if I can, take you to Tab 43. 12 This is a document we were just provided with, I think, 13 yesterday. And you'll see that it's dated July 17, or 14 take it from me it's dated July 17, so it's -- it's just 15 after the 13th and 14th sensitivity or cultural awareness 16 training session. 17 And if you turn to the second page at the 18 bottom it says: 19 "During the cross-cultural awareness 20 training, Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah 21 offered to assist in alleviating 22 tension between the Stoney Point group 23 and the Military with a view to 24 allowing the environmental assessment, 25 subsequent remedial action and eventual
2611 handover to the Natives to proceed. 2 They clearly understood that the 3 principal impediment is the schism 4 between the Stoney Point group and the 5 Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point 6 Band and the behaviour of the Stoney 7 Point group." 8 Now, is that an accurate statement as I've 9 read it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And so having volunteered 12 yourself to assist in this mediation effort, I take it 13 you saw this as really typical of the kind of mediation 14 activities that you'd carried out in the past in order to 15 alleviate tension between two (2) conflicting groups -- 16 or three (3) conflicting groups? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And having offered yourself 19 and offered Bob Antone to the Military to assist in -- in 20 this endeavour, we see from these documents and 21 understand that the Military readily took up your offer? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And were you -- were you paid 24 by the Military for this activity? 25 A: They were supposed to but they never
2621 did. I'm glad you reminded me. 2 Q: There's a lot of interest. 3 A: What was the dates again on that? 4 Q: That's right, you've got ten (10) 5 years of interest to claim as well. And what arrangement 6 had been made, if it -- even though it wasn't, as you say 7 fulfilled, what arrangement had been made to pay you and 8 Bob Antone? 9 A: What arrangements? 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Yeah. There was arrangements being 12 made. 13 Q: And what were those? 14 A: That there would be a designated 15 person who was going to deal with that. 16 Q: Who was going to see to making sure 17 you and Bob Antone were paid for your -- 18 A: Services. 19 Q: -- assistance and services? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Because you were -- you were trying 22 to achieve an objective that was consistent with what the 23 Military were trying to achieve? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Right? And consistent, as you say,
2631 with your role as a mediator, that is to resolve 2 conflicts in a peaceful way? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Okay. And the plan that you've 5 agreed -- that you were aware was one that appeared to 6 have the Military personnel leaving the Ipperwash Base, I 7 think as you said this morning, in a graduated way, sort 8 of step by step. Right? 9 And we see from the documents that, if you 10 go back to Tab 1, if you look at page 3 of Tab 1, under 11 item 4, it's 4-C, you'll see the -- it says, "Comment" 12 that about halfway down that it says -- it begins: 13 "Should you be successful --" 14 It says: 15 "They [that's you] should be 16 successful, it will be possible to 17 begin reducing the Military Police 18 structure..." 19 I'm not sure what, "str" is, let's say 20 it's something like that, staffing or structure -- 21 "...by July 17th. Additionally, should 22 the meeting of 26 August, '95 be 23 successful, it may be possible to 24 completely remove the Military Police 25 persons from Camp Ipperwash and only
2641 use daily MP visits out of -- out of 2 the London detachment." 3 So, did you understand that if there was 4 success in this mediation effort that those kinds of time 5 lines were at least being discussed by the Military? 6 A: That was just brought to my attention 7 at that point in time. I didn't know exactly how that 8 going to be carried out, but that's what -- you know, 9 that's what I was hearing. 10 Q: That's what you were hearing on July 11 the 13th and 14th? 12 A: Yeah, yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. Okay. And that's what you 14 were referring to as this gradual removal? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And what -- what you 17 didn't have at the July 13 and 14 cross-cultural 18 awareness training session we see from Exhibit 1 is any 19 representative from the Stoney Point Group. Right? 20 There was no one there from the Stoney Point Group? 21 A: Not that I can remember. 22 Q: Yeah. And so -- and we -- we look at 23 the list of people and it doesn't appear there's anyone 24 from the Stoney Point Group -- no -- no -- appears 25 representative from that group, and I take it that what
2651 you needed to do was to get a -- a buy-in into this 2 process from the Stoney Point Group? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And the person that was - 5 - appeared to be identified for the purposes of trying to 6 achieve that objective was Glenn George, wasn't it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. And did you know Glenn George 9 up to that stage? Had you met him? You were aware of 10 him? 11 A: I -- I've met him. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yeah, I was aware of who he was. 14 Q: What -- what sort of familiarity did 15 you have of Glenn George at that stage? How well did you 16 know him and what did you know about him? 17 A: I knew the family -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- his uncle and his mother and his 20 sister and his nephew. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. Yeah. And how well did you 22 know Glenn? 23 A: I knew that he was a -- a good hockey 24 player. You didn't want to get hit by him. 25 Q: All right. So, is it fair to say
2661 that you knew him fairly well? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And what we see in the 4 documents is that you were -- it appears you were going 5 to be meeting with Glenn George and -- and seeing whether 6 you could advance this process by getting him to agree on 7 these -- these objectives, at least as a topic of 8 discussion for the August 26th meeting; is that right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: All right. And we -- we see, I 11 think, from -- and did you meet then with Glenn George 12 fairly soon? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Because we see at Tab 2, if you turn 15 to Tab 2, it's Exhibit 274, that you were observed -- you 16 and Bob Antone were observed meeting with Glenn George 17 and several others on the military beach during the 18 evening of July 13. That's -- that's only at the end of 19 the first day of the cultural awareness training -- 20 scheduled cultural awareness training program. 21 So I gather you really met with him as 22 soon as you could? 23 A: We were invited to a fish fry. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: When it comes to food, I'll be there.
2671 Q: So it was fortuitous that there was a 2 fish fry, that gave you an opportunity to meet with him? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And -- and both you and 5 Bob Antone did meet with him. And it says "others", do 6 you remember who those others were? 7 A: All I know is that there was more 8 than five (5) people. 9 Q: Yeah. But do you remember any of the 10 names of who they were? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And did you explain to Glenn George 13 what you had discussed with the Military earlier that day 14 about pursuing a course of action that would lead to the 15 Military leaving Camp Ipperwash and achieving the 16 objective of the Stoney Point group of obtaining physical 17 possession of Camp Ipperwash? 18 Did you talk to him about that? 19 A: We shared as to what the meeting was, 20 you know, what it was all about, what was being said and, 21 yes, we -- we did. 22 Q: Okay. So you shared that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And did you -- and you shared, I take 25 it, with him the -- the objective of -- of the Military
2681 being able to do the environmental cleanup? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And did you also share 4 with him the Military's objective of trying to develop a 5 plan to allow the Kettle and Stony Point Band Police to 6 begin some kind of joint patrol or law enforcement? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you get any reaction from -- 9 from Glenn George and the others with respect to these 10 three (3) objectives? 11 A: No. 12 Q: They didn't react one (1) way or the 13 other? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. I gather though they were 16 prepared to at least pursue discussions about the -- 17 about having this August 26th meeting? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And did they indicate 20 anything that needed to be done to allow for their 21 participation? Did they have any conditions or 22 requirements to allow them to participate in the August 23 26th meeting? 24 A: What they were going to do is that 25 they said that they would have a meeting within the
2691 community to be able to designate. And that was the 2 whole thing was that we were trying impress on them, was 3 that the importance of having people from Stoney Point to 4 be present at these meetings. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And so they were going to 6 have a meeting of the Stoney Point group? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: To try and figure out who should 9 attend the August 26th meeting? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: As their representatives? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And did you report this 14 information back to Captain Smith, that is the -- 15 A: I believe Bob did. I -- I didn't. 16 Q: I see. He did on -- it was agreed 17 between you and Bob that he would report -- 18 A: There was nothing hidden on -- to our 19 agenda. You know, there's no hidden agendas on our part. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. Whatever was heard, whatever 22 was discussed, we shared that with whomever was 23 interested. 24 Q: All right. 25
2701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 4 going into a new area? 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: I am. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 7 be a good time to break, it's twenty (20) to 5:00. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just one (1) moment. 9 Just for the purposes of clarification of the record, My 10 Friend referred to a document at Tab 43, which is not in 11 evidence yet. It's Inquiry Document Number 7000572. It 12 was a Military Report dated July 17, 1995. 13 And also for the record, the document at 14 Tab 1 referred to by My Friend is Exhibit P-271. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Perhaps we could have 16 the document that's Exhibit 43, marked then as an 17 exhibit; I thought it had been. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I knew that 19 it hadn't been. what exhibit number is that? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-283, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-283. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT P-283: Document No. 1000572 July 24 17/'95 Subject: OP Maple 25 Summarizing a number of
2711 recent developments. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 4 7000572, right? 5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 43. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 That's fine. We'll continue, Mr. Roland, at a date when 11 Mr. Antone is -- Mr. Elijah is available. I don't know 12 when that is at the moment but we'll find out and 13 continue. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 16 (WITNESS RETIRES) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, we'll 19 adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00. Now, I 20 respectfully ask everybody who's here to remain behind 21 for a few moments. 22 This doesn't have to be on the record. 23 We're adjourned for the day. Okay. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, March the 10th, at
2721 9:00 a.m. 2 3 --- Upon adjourning at 4:42 p.m. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Certified Correct, 11 12 13 14 15 ____________________ 16 Dustin Warnock 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25