11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 7th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 9 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 10 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 11 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 14 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 15 Jennifer McAleer ) 16 17 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 18 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 19 20 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 21 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 Opening Comments 9 6 7 Mark Anthony Wright, Resumed 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 13 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Walter Myrka 118 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 141 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 146 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Janet Clermont 174 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 178 14 15 16 17 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 356 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1143 Document Number 2002610. OPP Occurrence 4 Report 19930719 re. Natives Blocking 5 Matheson Drive, July 17, 1993. 18 6 P-1144 Document Number 2001348. Fax to Wright 7 from OPP Constable W. D. Silverman re. 8 Information Re: Firearms Held by Natives 9 Occupying CFB Ipperwash, March 23, 1995. 35 10 P-1145 Photograph 0519, Black Trans Am 11 automobile, license plate number 062 XCS. 54 12 P-1146 CD of CHCH TV Hamilton, Channel 11 13 Newscast re. Ipperwash Prov. Park 14 Occupation, Sept. 06, 1995. 88 15 P-1147 Transcript of Lima 2 and 2841, track 16 number 2019(b), 20:19 hrs, Sept 06,1995. 92 17 P-1148 Transcript of Lima 2 and 2841, Chatham 18 logger 0146, track 12, 20:37 hrs., Sept. 19 06,1995. 95 20 P-1149 Transcript of Track number 2021, 21 20:21 hrs, Sept 06, 1995. 99 22 P-1150 Transcript of Track number 2023(a), 23 20:23 hrs, Sept. 06, 1995. 102 24 P-1151 Transcript of Track number 2042, 25 20:42 hrs, Sept 06, 1995 103
91 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's one (1) issue 11 I wanted to briefly address before we start this morning 12 and that's the schedule for April and May. 13 We sent out a schedule that included 14 hearings on -- in April and in May and included hearings 15 during some of the weeks, five days a week including 16 Fridays. And we've heard from a number of parties the -- 17 Mr. Roland on behalf of the OPPA, Mr. Scullion on behalf 18 of the Residents of Aazhoodena, Mr. Henderson on behalf 19 of the First Nation, and Mr. Rosenthal on behalf of the 20 Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 21 And we've -- as well we've heard from Mr. 22 Klippenstein and except for Mr. Klippenstein the -- and 23 we've also heard from Mr. Falconer from ALST. 24 Each of the parties has indicated that the 25 addition of the Fridays works a -- it -- it makes it very
101 difficult on the parties A) to prepare and B) to -- for 2 many people who are in small firms or sole practitioners 3 to maintain their practice. But it's -- principally the 4 issue is -- it becomes an issue if you sit five (5) days 5 a week three (3) weeks in a row there's no time to 6 prepare. 7 And so we've -- a request has been made 8 that you reconsider the schedule starting with the 9 Friday, March 31st, down to -- the last Friday we said 10 was May 26th, to take into account the concerns of the 11 parties. And -- and frankly I was -- when this schedule 12 -- when I sent out this schedule I was alert to the -- to 13 the issues that My Friends have raised and my concern 14 when we sent out the schedule was to try to ensure that 15 we get done as quickly as possible. 16 And My Friends all want to make -- to do 17 the same thing. They all wish to get done as quickly as 18 possible, as efficiently as possible but they have asked 19 you to reconsider this issue. 20 There are two (2) Fridays that need to be 21 kept simply because there are two (2) weeks over the next 22 two (2) months that have a holiday on Monday. There's 23 Easter Monday so the Friday of April 21st should be kept, 24 as well on the Victoria Day weekend which falls -- the 25 holiday's on Monday, May 22nd we need to keep the other -
111 - the Friday, May 26th. 2 So over the next -- starting with March 3 31st there would be seven (7) Fridays. If we keep the 4 two (2) it would be a reduction of five (5) Fridays. 5 And I think -- I hope I've captured My 6 Friends' concerns but some of My Friends may just add 7 something very briefly. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 It isn't necessary, but if somebody wants to that's fine. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. Rosenthal. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Aboriginal counsel 15 have been meeting in the last day or so and talking about 16 this and we very much appreciate the need for a balance 17 that you mentioned yesterday and the need for efficiency 18 and economy. 19 And we do have concerns about Fridays as 20 Mr. Millar indicated. On the other hand we do want to be 21 as expeditious as possible and we have some informal 22 arrangements that we've been talking about between 23 Aboriginal counsel that we know we'll contribute to 24 greater efficiency and so we hope that will help expedite 25 the process.
121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm very 2 happy to hear that. Thank you very much, Mr. Rosenthal. 3 And I'd be happy to reconsider the schedule that we put 4 out and we'll announce a new schedule this afternoon 5 sometime. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that fair 8 enough? That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That would be great. 10 I can do that at the -- I'll send it out by e-mail to 11 everybody at the end of the day. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's start. 15 I think Karen Jones is the first cross-examiner on behalf 16 of the OPPA. We haven't seen you for some time, Ms. 17 Jones, nice to see you again. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, to 23 start there are a couple more clips from the logger tape 24 that we wanted to play for the Inspector and Mr. Millar 25 has offered to assist so it'll just take a few minutes to
131 set that up. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And as well there's a 4 media clip so if we could just have a second and we'll 5 get organized. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 Your estimate of time was approximately two (2) hours, is 8 that still a reasonable estimate? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: I hope to be a little 10 shorter than that, Mr. Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A little 12 shorter than that? That's fine. Thank you very much. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, while 17 that's getting set up maybe I can just start with 18 something else and we can go back to that. I don't want 19 to -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: -- not use time well. 22 23 MARK ANTHONY WRIGHT, Resumed 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES:
141 Q: Good morning, Inspector Wright. My 2 name's Karen Jones and I'm one of the lawyers for the 3 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 4 A: Good morning. 5 Q: Inspector, I wanted to start off my 6 taking you way back to 1993. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: You had to the, what we've been 9 calling the toll booth incident which was the situation 10 where people were being charged to go down to the beach 11 and you gave some evidence on your first day of 12 testifying that you were involved with that and you were 13 present during that. 14 And you -- I just wanted to ask you some 15 questions about the general powers of arrest that a peace 16 officer has. And I understand that the powers to arrest 17 are set out in the Criminal Code? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And a peace officer including a 20 police officer can arrest a person with or without a 21 warrant? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And a peace officer can arrest a 24 person without a warrant under a number of conditions; 25 one is if he finds the person is committing a criminal
151 offence? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: One is if the person has committed an 4 indictable offence? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And one is if the person believes on 7 reasonable and probable grounds that a person has 8 committed or is about to commit an indictable offence? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And you spoke in your evidence a 11 little bit about reasonable and probable grounds and I 12 take it that's in relation to the requirement in the 13 Criminal Code that the peace officer must have reasonable 14 and probable grounds that the person has committed or is 15 about to commit an indictable offence? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Or has. 19 Q: Or has. And I understand that those 20 reasonable and probably grounds can be gathered from a 21 variety of sources including information supplied by 22 another police officer? 23 A: Yes, I would agree. 24 Q: Yeah. And also under the Criminal 25 Code I take it that once a person has been arrested the
161 peace officer is entitled to detain that person until a 2 number of conditions are met -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- one (1) of which is that the 5 person is taken before a Justice of the Peace within 6 certain time limits? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And one (1) of which is that either 9 the peace officer who made the arrest or the officer in 10 charge releases the person? 11 A: Right, that's another option. 12 Q: Right. And that can be a conditional 13 release or it can be an unconditional release? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And in the case of the toll booth 16 incidents, and what I'd like to do just to assist with 17 this a little, Mr. Commissioner, is to provide to you and 18 the Inspector a copy of Inquiry Document Number 2002610. 19 And this is the General Occurrence Report that arose out 20 of the toll booth incident. 21 And I could -- if I could hand those up to 22 Mr. Commissioner? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
171 Q: Inspector, if you just want to look 2 at that for a moment, please, take your time and do so. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. It appears from this document, 8 Inspector, that three (3) people were arrested as a 9 result of the toll booth incident -- 10 A: I would agree. 11 Q: -- and I take it that coincides with 12 your earlier evidence? 13 And it appears as though they were 14 arrested by different officers? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And as I understood from the evidence 17 that you gave in the first day of your testimony when I 18 think you said the persons who had been arrested were 19 taken back to Forest, you wanted to release them 20 immediately but they would not agree to conditions? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And I take it in this situation you - 23 - that the arresting officers wouldn't have made the 24 decisions about detention or not, it would have been the 25 officer in charge?
181 A: Right. 2 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, I 3 wonder if we could make this document which is Inquiry 4 Document 2002610 the next exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1143, Your Honour, 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1143: Document Number 2002610. OPP 9 Occurrence Report 19930719 10 re. Natives Blocking 11 Matheson Drive, July 17, 12 1993. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: I then wanted to move onto the search 16 that took place at Camp Ipperwash in August of 1993 17 following the helicopter shooting. 18 And I think you told us in your evidence 19 again on the first day that you were called out -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- to that? You had received 22 information of a Canadian Forces helicopter being shot? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And you told us that you tried to set 25 up a perimeter and I think --
191 A: Right. 2 Q: -- you said, almost this in quotation 3 marks, "as best we could". 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And I take it that the chances of 6 establishing a tight perimeter were non-existent? 7 A: I would agree with you. 8 Q: Yeah. And in your police notes, 9 Inspector Wright -- you may want to go to them in your 10 blue volume. And I was just going to take you to page 17 11 of your notes. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You have documented in your notes 14 that on August 24th you met with Chief Carl George. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you alerted him to the fact that 17 you would be obtaining a search warrant and searching the 18 area of the Base. 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And as I understand you did so that - 21 - so as to let him and the other people in occupation on 22 the Base know what was coming. 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And would it be usual or unusual to 25 give that kind of a warning prior to conducting a search
201 pursuant to a search warrant? 2 A: Unusual. 3 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you help us 4 understand why you would have taken that unusual step 5 with Chief Carl George? 6 A: Well it was -- you have to take a 7 situa -- each situation dictate -- dictates your tactics 8 and the situation was such that it was a significantly 9 large area -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- and our ability to contain that -- 12 that area prior to the search was limited because of the 13 geography involved and frankly the number of officers 14 that we had there. 15 In addition to that, it -- it involved the 16 shooting of -- of a helicopter, so there was a firearm 17 involved. So we had to take into consideration 18 everybody's safety when you're going to go down there and 19 execute that warrant. 20 And it's been my experience in policing on 21 the First Nations' territories that traditionally if one 22 polices in an appropriate manner and in a respectful 23 manner, then one reaps the benefits after. 24 And what I mean by that is -- I -- we 25 really didn't think we were going to get a whole lot
211 based on that warrant but one has to try. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And -- because we're obligated to 4 under law to try, so we did. But again, it has been my 5 practice that normally what happens when this sort of 6 thing goes on is that some time after the event, we the 7 police community, will get calls from people with -- on 8 that community -- within that community telling us -- 9 giving us vital information with respect to that criminal 10 offence. 11 So it's, you know, it's a means to an end. 12 You -- you get what you want later on based on the 13 information you get after you've conducted your search on 14 the property. 15 Q: Right. And I take -- I take it from 16 what you're saying, Inspector, that taking that kind of 17 respectful approach and keeping Chief Carl George 18 informed was one (1) way that you hope to continue on 19 with your relationship with the occupiers in the Army 20 Camp or the OPP's relationship? 21 A: Yes. That -- that was part of that. 22 But -- but, I mean, primarily my concern, as a criminal 23 investigator, was the successful completion of that 24 investigation. And -- and you know, frankly the -- the 25 main concern I had, Number 1, was that the safety of
221 particularly the officers, that we're going to go down 2 there because of the firearm involved. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And based on the situation we had and 5 the geography, you know, it didn't appear likely that we 6 were going to meet with much success. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: So you have to take -- my main 9 concern was -- was the safety of everybody involved going 10 down there. We didn't -- I certainly didn't want to and 11 -- and I have to make it clear that I wasn't in charge. 12 There was as a detective inspector running the show at 13 this time, Terry Hall (phonetic). 14 Q: Right. Yes. 15 A: But, you know, you're asking me for 16 my opinion and that was -- you -- you don't want anybody 17 hurt -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- going down there to do that 20 search. 21 Q: And in terms of the other point that 22 you made which was that sometimes by taking an approach 23 like that you can get continued cooperation. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: It appears from your police notes,
231 and again this is on page 17, that part of the discussion 2 that you had with Chief Carl George was that the Chief 3 also told you that he would try and get the person 4 responsible for the shooting of the helicopter to turn 5 himself into the police. 6 A: Right. That was an option that we 7 asked that he consider. 8 Q: Right, okay. In terms of the search 9 itself we've heard some evidence about this previously 10 and as you were there I wondered if you could help us a 11 bit with this. 12 I understand that the search itself was 13 conducted in a small area of the Base? 14 A: Sure. I would agree with that 15 relative to the size of that parcel of land. 16 Q: Okay. And I take it that it mainly 17 focussed on the area that runs along Highway 21 in and 18 around the buildings and outbuildings where the occupiers 19 had -- had established a residence? 20 A: Right. And -- and the ranges that 21 were north of that area and the wooded area as well. We 22 went right into -- into the bush as well. 23 Q: Right. So I take it that there was 24 no effort to -- in any kind of way to -- search the whole 25 Base?
241 A: No. 2 Q: And in fact, it would have been 3 impossible to do that -- 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: -- given the time limitations on the 6 warrant and the number of officers that were available? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. And I also wanted to ask you a 9 couple of questions about the method of the search 10 because you've told us that you were there. We've heard 11 some evidence at this Inquiry about some concerns or some 12 complaints about the manner in which officers conducted 13 themselves during the search and I wanted to ask you what 14 you observed vis-a-vis the conduct of executing a search 15 warrant. 16 A: Well, I was there with the officers. 17 I mean, there was large -- there was a significant number 18 of us there I would say -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- and I observed nothing 21 inappropriate in any way, shape, or form from the 22 officers that were around me. 23 Q: Okay. During the course of time that 24 you were on the Base in the search were you in and around 25 the residences while they were being searched?
251 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you witness any destruction 3 or any messing up of the residences? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And did you see any instances where 6 the occupiers were treated improperly? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you have any conversation during 9 the course of that day with any of the occupiers? 10 Did you, for example, have any 11 conversations with Rose Manning? 12 A: I remember Ms. Manning when we were 13 at her residence. I remember her being there -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- but it was uneventful -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- as I recall. 18 Q: Did she have any complaints or any -- 19 any issues that -- 20 A: I don't know -- my recollection is 21 that she wasn't very happy with us; that we were going to 22 execute a warrant in her residence. But -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- and she expressed that and that's 25 -- that's what I recall but other --
261 Q: Yeah. 2 A: -- that was basically it. 3 Q: And I take it in your experience it's 4 not particularly unusual -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- for people to have concerns about 7 warrants being executed at their property? 8 A: No, it's certainly understandable. 9 It's their -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- private property. People don't 12 like the police coming in to search that. I appreciate 13 that. 14 Q: Yeah. Okay. I then wanted to take 15 you to your notes at page 59 and this is another and -- a 16 new area I wanted to ask you about. 17 And I -- the areas I wanted to ask you 18 about were the status in your view or your understanding 19 of different areas of land -- 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: -- around the Army Base. I think 22 you've told us in your evidence that you were clear in 23 your mind that there was an issue in terms of the Army 24 Base itself? 25 A: Absolutely.
271 Q: Yes. And at your notes at page 59 2 these are your notes from August the 3rd of 1995 and they 3 outline a conversation that you had with Glenn George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you say in your notes that in the 6 middle of that conversation with Glenn George, and this 7 is about halfway down the page, Inspector -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- it says: 10 "Before leaving George said that they 11 rightfully owned Matheson Drive, 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park, and the 13 farmer's field south of the Army Base." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: And that -- that, just before we go-- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- I've corrected that in my evidence 19 in-chief -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- in that it's not south of the 22 farmer. It would -- it says south there but that's -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- incorrect. It would be west. 25 Q: That's west.
281 A: Right. 2 Q: If we take Army Camp Road as running 3 north and south -- 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: -- it would be to the west of Army 6 Camp Road -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- what he was referring to? And I 9 think that you told us in your evidence that based on all 10 the information you had you believe that Ipperwash Park 11 was MNR property? 12 A: That was my honest belief, yes. 13 Q: And did you have a view about the 14 status of Matheson Drive -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- as to what type of property that 17 was? 18 A: My under -- my belief at that time 19 was that Matheson Drive was owned by the, I think it was 20 the Township. 21 Q: Okay. And in terms of the status of 22 the farmer's field that Glenn George referred to, did you 23 have any information about that? 24 A: I can tell you that my belief was 25 that that property was the lawful -- that the -- it -- it
291 was in -- it belonged to a private individual and that's 2 what I -- that's what I -- that's who I thought had 3 lawful ownership of it. 4 Q: Okay. And I -- Glenn George 5 certainly doesn't mention this at any place according to 6 your notes, but an issue has also come up about the 7 status of the sandy parking lot. And I wanted to ask you 8 your view as to the ownership or the status of the sandy 9 parking lot outside the Park. 10 And if it assists you at all, Inspector, 11 if you turn to page 79 of your notes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: There's some -- an entry closer to 17 the bottom of the page that I believes speaking -- speaks 18 to the sandy road allowance and I'm just pointing that 19 out to you to assist you. 20 A: Right, thank you. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: Well, as it says in my notes, that I 23 felt that that was the Township property. And -- and 24 once again, there was no doubt in my mind at that 25 particular time that the Park was belonging to the
301 Province of Ontario so I didn't -- I didn't -- in my 2 mind, none of that property of -- down in that area, was 3 in dispute as far as I was concerned. 4 Q: Okay. And "down in that area" 5 meaning down -- sort of at the intersection of East 6 Parkway and Army Camp Road? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And then I wanted to ask you, were 9 you aware at any point in times of any claims that were 10 made about the area of cottages east of the Base, that is 11 the cottage area off Outer Drive? 12 A: I don't believe I was. I knew there 13 was a claim by the Kettle Point First Nations territory 14 in respect of the West Ipperwash cottages, but I don't 15 believe that included that line of property; that was my 16 understanding and my belief. 17 Q: Okay. I then wanted to ask you a few 18 questions about planning and contingency planning from a 19 police perspective. 20 You said in your evidence there were 21 difficult and complex problems policing West Ipperwash 22 beach? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you spoke of an education session 25 that was held for Lambton County officers --
311 A: Right. 2 Q: -- regarding West Ipperwash. And 3 looking at documents, we know that a similarly difficult 4 and complex problem was on the Army Base and that the OPP 5 had issued some directives to officers regarding policing 6 around the Army Base. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Yeah. And I'd take it you'd agree 9 that it is important in difficult and complex situations 10 that officers have additional information about the 11 situation? 12 A: Absolutely. 13 Q: And that is important to assist them 14 so that they can respond to, at least, foreseeable 15 situations? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that can involve giving specific 18 directions on how to handle situations? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And it can involve giving directions 21 as to the scope of their responsibilities? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: And I take it that's all part of 24 proactive policing? 25 A: Yes.
321 Q: And the intent of such a directive 2 would be to assist in policing better? 3 A: Yes. You have to give the officer 4 some basic framework with which to work in, but you know, 5 each officer is required to deal with a situation that 6 they find him or herself in at that particular moment. 7 Q: Right. I then wanted to ask you a 8 few questions about intelligence or information 9 gathering. 10 And you had told us that you were involved 11 in Ipperwash since 1993? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And I take it over the course of time 14 you would have received information about the base from 15 various sources? 16 A: Okay, sure. 17 Q: Yeah. And, for example, we saw an 18 example of that with the intelligence log that Mr. Millar 19 took you through yesterday. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And you would have received other in 22 -- information or intelligence from other sources as 23 well. 24 A: I think anything that we had would 25 have probably been captured in that log, but I suspect
331 there would be the odd piece of information that I may 2 have been told that didn't go into the log, but the 3 intent was to have it all go into the log just so we 4 would have a -- a history. 5 Q: Okay. And I did want to ask you 6 about that, Inspector, because in Commission's document 7 data base there is Inquiry Document Number 2001348 and 8 what I'd like to do is pass you up a copy so you can look 9 at it and a copy for the Commissioner as well. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And you'll see that this is a two (2) 14 page document, Inspector. The cover is a fax cover sheet 15 and the second page is a confidential memorandum to you 16 from Constable Silverman. And I apologize, I know it's 17 hard to read, but that's the best copy that we could get. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it you would have 23 received this fax? 24 A: I have no recollection of receiving 25 this fax, so.
341 Q: Okay. And can we turn to the 2 contents of it? You'll see that in the confidential 3 memorandum from Constable Silverman -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- he advises that he received a 6 telephone call from a person who didn't want his name 7 disclosed advising that Anthony O'Brien George is in 8 possession of three (3) or four (4) rifles in his 9 trailer. He says they're hidden. Claims it's a high 10 powered imitation assault rifle. And he's been told this 11 by other natives on the army base who don't want to be 12 identified. 13 And goes on to say that David Abraham 14 George who lives in the shack in the range road behind 15 Dudley's trailer, the shack closest to the highway, has a 16 sawed-off shotgun at his place. He can't say where he 17 heard this, where the shotgun is stored. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And I take it that you don't dispute 20 that you would have received the fax? 21 A: I just -- I don't recall ever 22 receiving it. It's certainly made out to me. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: And it's made out to -- to -- the 25 number there is the fax number at my office, so --
351 Q: Yeah, okay. Mr. Commissioner, I 2 wonder if we could make this document, Inquiry document 3 2001348 the next exhibit? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1144, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1144: Document Number 2001348. Fax 7 to Wright from OPP Constable 8 W. D. Silverman re. 9 Information Re: Firearms Held 10 by Natives Occupying CFB 11 Ipperwash, March 23, 1995. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: And I take it, Inspector, that there 15 is an expectation that officers that have information 16 that could be relevant to a matter, have an obligation to 17 pass that on? 18 A: Yes, I would agree with you. 19 Q: Right. They wouldn't necessarily be 20 responsible for investigating or determining the validity 21 of the information, their role would be to pass it up for 22 -- for their actioning if need be? 23 A: In this -- in regards to CFB 24 Ipperwash? 25 Q: Yes.
361 A: Yes. I would agree with you. 2 Q: Yeah, yeah, okay. And I wanted to 3 take you back to the summer of 1995. Some of the 4 evidence that we've heard at this Inquiry is that in the 5 summer of 1995, the presence of outsiders, that is people 6 who hadn't been in occupation before and weren't from 7 Kettle and Stony Point were noted in the Base. 8 Some of the names we've heard, for 9 example, were Les Jewel, the Isaac brothers from Walpole, 10 Buck Doxtator, Wayne Pine. 11 Did you have any knowledge about the -- 12 about these outsiders? 13 A: Yes. I recall -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- those -- some of those individuals 16 being there. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether you had 18 information about Les Jewel? 19 A: I think at some point. The odd time 20 I -- I talked to Mr. Jewel at the gate as I recall. 21 Q: Right. And we know from your notes, 22 if you look at page 58 of your notes on August 3rd, you 23 have a notation that you spoke to Glenn George and Les 24 Jewel at the Base. 25
371 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Page 58? 4 Q: Yes. Hopefully I've got the note 5 right. 6 A: Yes, I have it here, yes, Les Jewel. 7 Q: Okay. Okay. And did you, in 8 addition to your personally talking to Les Jewel, would 9 you have, through your role, received information about 10 Les Jewel from any sources? 11 A: I may have. 12 Q: You -- you can't -- 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Okay. And similarly with the Isaacs 15 I know that you've told us that you were the First 16 Nations liaison for Walpole and -- and I take it had been 17 there from time to time? 18 A: Yes, I had. 19 Q: Did you -- were you familiar with the 20 Isaac brothers? 21 A: Which -- which Isaac brothers are you 22 referring to? 23 Q: Two (2) in particular, Robert and Ed? 24 A: I know of Mr. Ed Isaac. I don't know 25 -- I don't recall a Robert Isaac. But I know a Mr. Ed
381 Isaac from my time on Walpole but I don't ever recall 2 seeing Mr. Ed Isaac at CFB Ipperwash. 3 Q: Okay. Would that have been a concern 4 to you if you had -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- based on your knowledge of them? 7 A: Just merely seeing him at CFB 8 Ipperwash, no. 9 Q: Okay. And when you were, in August 10 of 1995, when you were -- you had some -- you've told us 11 some discussions over that time with people who were 12 occupying the Base. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: We know about, for example, your 15 August 3rd conversation with Glenn George and Les Jewel. 16 Did you form any opinion at that time about who was in 17 charge on the Base? 18 A: I don't -- I don't think 'in charge' 19 would be accurate. I think who was speaking for the 20 people in the Base -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- would be -- I was of the feeling 23 there for sometime that Glenn George, Mr. Glenn George 24 was. And Mr. Jewel then became involved in some 25 negotiations. And Mr. Manning would talk to me every
391 once in a while as would Ms. Manning but I never really 2 had a sense that there was one (1) particular person in 3 charge. 4 I mean, at some point the Chief that they 5 had, the person who they had acting as Chief was no 6 longer acting as Chief and then I don't recall if they 7 ever had a -- a person who they deemed to be their Chief 8 after that. 9 Q: Okay. And by that person are you 10 referring to Chief Carl George? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Okay. And I wanted to talk with you 13 a little bit about the interactions that you had and some 14 of the negotiations that you'd had with the occupiers in 15 the summer of 1995. 16 We note from page 53 of your notes -- 17 A: Yes? 18 Q: -- that you met with Glenn George on 19 August the 1st, 1995? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And I take it he was at the Base at 22 the time? 23 A: Yes, he was. 24 Q: And you were able to have a 25 discussion with him about the situation at the Base?
401 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you were able to come up with a 3 mutually acceptable plan about addressing issues on 4 Matheson Drive? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you were able to agree on the 7 issuance of a press release? 8 A: We were. 9 Q: And you agreed to a plan for him to 10 address with his people concerns about aggravating the 11 situation on the beach near Ipperwash? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And you also had discussions with him 14 about natives from other areas coming in and causing 15 trouble? 16 A: I -- that was -- wasn't -- that was 17 more him telling me as opposed to a conversation; that 18 was information he was giving me. His concern was that-- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- there were people that didn't -- 21 were not living there, did not belong there, coming there 22 on the weekends as it were and causing trouble for the 23 people who lived there in that community. 24 Q: Okay. And I take it that a spirit of 25 cooperation existed as between you and Glenn George --
411 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- based on that -- 3 A: Yeah. I would say that we -- we 4 communicated reasonably effectively. 5 Q: Yes. And did you ever hear any 6 concern expressed by Glenn George about not being able to 7 talk to you and not being able to sort these issues out 8 with you? 9 A: Not that I recall, no. 10 Q: Okay. And according to your notes on 11 page 58, you spoke again with Glenn George and Les Jewel 12 on August the 3rd. And you have in your notes that your 13 discussion with him included, giving the spirit of 14 cooperation that existed, you were speaking with him 15 about the arrest of -- of an individual on the Base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you had some further discussions 18 with him about Matheson Drive? 19 A: Right. But to be fair, I mean that - 20 - that context with respect to the spirit of cooperation 21 was -- 22 Q: Right. 23 A: -- as a result of we had had a -- we 24 had had a discussion in regards to what had taken place 25 in regard -- because of that fatal motor vehicle
421 accident -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- we had established, you know, 4 somewhat of a -- that spirit of co-operation with respect 5 to the press release and a number of other things. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: So that's what I meant -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- in -- I mean I -- 10 Q: You were hoping -- 11 A: -- I think it was -- 12 Q: -- that would continue. 13 A: -- we -- yeah, I didn't -- yes. 14 Q: Okay. And I wanted to compare that a 15 little bit to your experiences in terms of trying to talk 16 with the occupiers after September the 4th, 1995. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: We know from your notes on page 74 19 and your evidence -- and sorry, just to be clear, 20 Inspector, your notebook entry is Exhibit P-1086. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: We know from your evidence and from 23 your notes that on September the 5th you went to the Park 24 and you were with Brad Seltzer and Les Kobayashi. 25 A: Right.
431 Q: And I think you've told us that you 2 went to the Park, there were a number of the occupiers 3 there on the other side of the fence? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And you told us that no one would 6 engage in conversation with you? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And can you describe for us a little 9 bit about the atmosphere? What was going on when you 10 were at the fence trying to talk? Was anybody talking to 11 you? 12 You had said that people were making some 13 comments. 14 A: Yes. That's what I -- I -- I recall 15 a car came by at one point and I think some profanity was 16 directed my way. And then there were a number of 17 individuals in -- in the area within earshot and they 18 would say the odd thing directed towards us at the fence. 19 And we would try to make contact or try to 20 attempt to engage them in conversation. 21 Q: And I take it with no success? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And you've told us that you asked for 24 Glenn George? 25 A: Yes.
441 Q: So, far as you knew was he in the 2 Park at that time? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: And you then go to CFB Ipperwash with 7 Brad Seltzer because you've been unsuccessful in making 8 any contact? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to ask you a 11 few questions about the conversation. You've told us 12 that you and Brad Seltzer had a conversation with Bert 13 Manning? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And I have before me a copy of an 16 excerpt from Brad Seltzer's notes and if it's of 17 assistance to you and the Commissioner, I'm happy to hand 18 you up a -- a -- that so you can have a look at it and 19 follow along. Would you -- would that be -- 20 A: Well, that may be -- that may be 21 helpful if you're going to -- if you're going to refer to 22 it. 23 Q: Yeah. Okay. And Mr. Commissioner, 24 this is Inquiry Document Number 2003866. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry,
451 2002086? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: 200386. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: And just to guide you here a little 7 bit in these notes, we've included a couple of pages so 8 it's clear the dates and the times, but if you turn to 9 the third page at the 13:30 hour entry. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You'll see at the top of the page it 12 says: 13 "Mark spoke with Bert Manning who 14 advised..." 15 And he sets out a number of things he 16 advised. And I just wanted to go through them with you, 17 Inspector, and see if they're consistent with your view-- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- of the conversation. The first is 20 that the Elders are not present for us to talk. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And do you recall Bert saying that? 23 A: Yes. And I think that I've alluded 24 to that in my notebook -- 25 Q: Yeah.
461 A: -- in my evidence. 2 Q: And the second was he does not know 3 who will talk? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And again, that's consistent with 6 what you recall? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Third, is satisfied to have Stoney 9 Point back. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And I believe you gave some evidence 12 about Bert Manning talking about -- 13 A: An ancient burial ground. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: Is what I recall. He was -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- happy to have his ancient burial 18 ground -- or they were happy to have their ancient -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- burial ground back. 21 Q: And then the fourth point is that 22 Bert Manning was advised by Mark Wright that the natives 23 were trespassing pursuant to the Trespass to Property 24 Act, the land is rightfully owned by MNR. 25 MNR is going to be seeking a Court
471 injunction and that they have - "they" being the 2 occupiers have - the right to be represented? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And the fifth point is that 5 Natives are upset by the road blocks. 6 "It's not necessary and if we choose to 7 play that way, somebody will get hurt." 8 Do you recall that kind of a conversation 9 with Bert Manning? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I don't know. If I could just have a 14 moment, I want to check -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- my notes. 17 Q: So this -- 18 A: I don't -- 19 Q: I haven't just -- Inspector Wright, I 20 haven't seen anything in your notes about that, but 21 there's a notation in the scribe notes -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- that I wanted to take you to. 24 A: I'm aware of that -- well, that's -- 25 was why I was hesitating --
481 Q: Yeah. 2 A: I'm aware that it's in the scribe 3 notes and I -- and I don't believe it was in my notebook 4 either. So we -- we would have gone back -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- and briefed the Inspector. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And I would have been there and if 9 it's in the briefing notes then -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- logic would dictate I heard 12 Seltzer say that. 13 Q: Okay. And perhaps what I can do just 14 to -- to help you out with this is I can take you to the 15 area in I want to start with, the written scribe notes. 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: Yeah. And I -- this is Exhibit -- 18 sorry? P-426 and this -- 19 A: Written? Written scribe notes? 20 Q: The written scribe notes. And it 21 should be, I think, at Tab 19 -- 22 A: Yes, it is. Yeah. 23 Q: And if you turn to page 432. 24 A: 432. 25
491 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, I'm there. 4 Q: The note that we have on partway down 5 the page talks about your reporting back and there's a 6 mention there that the roadblocks aren't going anywhere. 7 A: Right. And it's attributed to me. 8 Q: Right. And then if you turn to the 9 typed scribe notes on page 42. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Thank you. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You'll see about halfway down the 16 page that there's a notation: 17 "Detective Sergeant Wright fears First 18 Nations may be [ oh, sorry] suggests 19 that eight (8) officers be put at 20 Highway number 21 as a fear First 21 Nations may be bolder tonight." 22 And I wanted to suggest to you that that 23 comment and those actions that were taken were as a 24 result of the information that you got from Bert Manning 25 about concerns about the roadblocks?
501 A: I couldn't say for sure. I don't 2 have a recollection of why I said that, but that would 3 appear to make complete sense to me. 4 Q: Sure. I then wanted to ask you, 5 we've just spoke a little bit about your attempts on 6 September 5 to have discussions or open some talks with 7 the occupiers. 8 I then wanted to take you to September the 9 6th and if you wanted to look at your notes to help 10 refresh your memory you'll see -- and again, your notes 11 are P-1086 and it's on page 76. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And again, can you help us a little 14 bit? When you and Marg Eve went to the Park and were 15 standing by the fence, can you tell us what the 16 atmosphere was like? What were people doing? Were 17 people saying anything to you? 18 A: Again there were car -- there was 19 vehicles moving around. There were a number of people at 20 the -- the store. There was -- it was uncomfortable in 21 that there were some young lads there shining -- 22 reflecting the light from the sun off of the mirrors that 23 had been taken from I think the -- the washrooms in that 24 -- that store area into our eyes. 25 So that was certainly -- I recall that
511 being quite uncomfortable for some time. And it was a 2 generally tense environment I guess -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- would be fair. 5 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you a 6 couple more questions because you have in your notes that 7 a black Camaro with two (2) occupants drove up. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And when we look at the scribe notes 10 which I think you should find on page 18 of your binder. 11 A: Page 18? 12 Q: Yeah. Sorry to flip you back and 13 forth. It's a little confusing. And you look at page 66 14 of the scribe notes? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 18. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 18 mean Tab 18. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Tab 18. Yeah, sorry. 20 THE WITNESS: Page 66, okay. Yes. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: And I'm looking at the 16:44 hours 24 entry -- 25 A: Yes?
521 Q: -- where it says: 2 "Mark Wright advises car has MNR lights 3 on it. Arrest them for stolen 4 vehicles. Mark Wright talked with 5 First Nations person in Ontario marker 6 062 XCS?" 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And I take it that that was the 9 licence plate of the car -- 10 A: As do I. 11 Q: -- that pulled up and you were 12 speaking with them. 13 And I wanted to see if I could clarify 14 something with you because in your notes you talk about a 15 black Camaro, and there is a picture in the documents 16 provided by the Commission of a car with a licence plate 17 of 062 XCS. 18 And I wondered, Mr. Commissioner, again if 19 I can pass a copy of the photo, one (1) to you and one 20 (1) to the Inspector? 21 For the assistance of the Inquiry this is 22 photo 0519. And I'm wondering if perhaps Mr. Millar 23 could put it up on the screen for us because it's a 24 little hard to see the licence plate unless it's blown up 25 but you can see it quite clearly once it's...
531 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I'm sorry, this is 4 just going to take a minute to get the -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- photo up on the 7 screen. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: And it's -- it's a little bit hard to 13 see up on the screen but I can tell you when you look at 14 the picture on the -- in the document database, it's 062 15 XCS. 16 And what I wanted to ask you is that it 17 appears from the writing on the back of the card that 18 it's a Trans Am not a Camaro. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And I -- we were trying to make some 21 sense of that and perhaps -- I wondered if you could give 22 us some assistance. I take it you're familiar with 23 vehicles? 24 A: Well, somewhat. 25 Q: Okay. And -- are -- is it -- would -
541 - is that a Camaro in -- or do you know if you can help 2 us, a Camaro similar to a Trans Am? 3 A: Very. 4 Q: Could you mix them up? 5 A: Very. Nothing turns on -- yes. I 6 could have mixed that up and nothing turns on that as far 7 as I'm concerned. Camaro, Trans Am, they're all -- 8 they're basically the same vehicle. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Same -- same look. I'm sure a Camaro 11 and a Trans Am owner would think differently but not to 12 me. 13 Q: Okay. Okay. That helps. We were 14 just trying to make sense as I said of your notes which 15 said Camaro and this picture which appears is a Trans Am. 16 In terms of -- in terms of a comparison, 17 you've talked about discussions that you had prior to -- 18 oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Commissioner, could we mark this 19 photograph as an exhibit? It's P-0519. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1145, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1145. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1145: Photograph 0519, Black Trans 24 Am automobile, license plate 25 number 062 XCS.
551 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 3 Q: And prior to September 4th, 1995, 4 you've told us earlier you were able to speak to and make 5 arrangements and discuss things with people who were in 6 occupation of the Base. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Were you surprised after September 9 the 4th that people in the Park wouldn't talk to you? 10 A: Was I surprised? Yes, I was. 11 Q: Okay. Did you have any -- what was 12 that something you had anticipated at all that people 13 would refuse to speak? 14 A: Personally? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: No. I -- I understand now what the - 17 - the reason was but certainly back then, no. 18 Q: Okay. And I understand that you made 19 some efforts to try and get over that. For example, 20 you've told us that you called in Marg Eve on September 21 the 6th? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Thinking that that might assist. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And it didn't?
561 A: Correct. 2 Q: Okay. I then wanted to move to 3 another area completely and that is that there was some - 4 - a brief review by Mr. Millar when you were giving your 5 evidence in-chief about activities that took place on the 6 part of the OPP prior to the takeover of the Park. 7 And specifically there was some questions 8 asked to you about probes or cameras that were set up in 9 the Park. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And I think the questions that you 12 had been asked about, did you have recollection of that 13 and your answer at the time was that it seemed to be 14 something TSB, the Technical Services Branch was doing. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And I just wanted to take you to page 17 69 of your notes. And again, this is your police notes, 18 P-1086. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I understand from looking at your 21 notes... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: ...that on August the 24th, 1995, one
571 of the things that you did was inspect the campgrounds 2 and the buildings and arrangements were made for TSB to 3 install cameras and probes? 4 A: August 29th you mean? 5 Q: August 29th, I'm sorry. 6 A: And could you repeat that -- that 7 point? 8 Q: I -- I understand from looking at 9 these notes that one (1) of the activities -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- that you did on that day was an 12 inspection of the campgrounds and buildings and 13 arrangements were made then with TSB to install cameras 14 and probes? 15 A: Well, I -- I appreciate that that's 16 what it looks like but I recall that what that means is 17 that I was with Inspector Carson -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- and he -- we toured the -- the 20 campgrounds -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- and my recollection is he told me 23 that there were arrangements being made for Technical 24 Support Branch to install cameras and probes; not that -- 25 Q: Okay.
581 A: -- I was going to make that because I 2 had nothing to do with that -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- that part of the operation. 5 Q: Okay. That's helpful. The point I - 6 - I -- as I understand it though is that any cameras or 7 probes that would have been installed by the OPP would 8 have been done at the direction of Incident Command? 9 A: Yes, that's my understanding. 10 Q: Yes. Okay. I then wanted to move 11 onto the area of roadblocks or checkpoints. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: And we know from looking at Project 14 Maple that setting up checkpoints was part of that plan? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And if we look at the scribe notes 17 which is -- should be in your black binder -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- at Tab 18 on page 13 -- 20 A: Yes? 21 Q: -- we know that the checkpoints were 22 set up at 01:13 hours on September the 5th, on then- 23 Inspector Carson's instructions. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And I just wanted to ask you a few
591 questions about the roadblocks or checkpoints. 2 I take it that there were a number of 3 purposes for setting up the roadblocks or checkpoints and 4 one was to gather information about who was in the area? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: One was to establish a police 7 presence in the area? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it the purpose of that 10 would be to provide a sense of security and to help calm 11 the situation for everyone in the area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the check -- roadblocks or 14 checkpoints could also be used to contain the area -- 15 A: If that became -- 16 Q: -- if need be. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: If need be. And I understand that 19 you would have given instructions about the checkpoints 20 to ERT members as to how to conduct the checkpoint? 21 A: I don't know if it was me but it very 22 well could have been. 23 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you 24 because in your evidence that you gave before the judge 25 regarding the injunction --
601 A: Right. 2 Q: -- and I think you'll find that at 3 page 55 -- sorry, Tab 55 of your materials. 4 If you want to look at that I can walk you 5 through what -- what was said; that I think you had given 6 some evidence that until the evening of September the 6th 7 the roadblocks or checkpoints were not used to restrict 8 traffic. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: People were allowed to travel through 11 the area? 12 A: I recall giving that evidence, yes. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you talked about in that -- in 16 your evidence about what the officers were to do -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- which was to stop everybody, ask 19 every driver for a licence, ask passengers to do ID -- to 20 provide ID's? 21 A: Pardon me? 22 Q: Ask passengers in vehicles to provide 23 ID's? 24 A: Yes, but the -- the "ask" is the -- 25 Q: That's right.
611 A: -- operating word there, yes. 2 Q: That would be something that could be 3 done on consent -- 4 A: Would have to be done -- that's 5 right. 6 Q: -- but not otherwise? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And similarly that the officers were 9 to ask to do consent searches of the vehicles? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And I take it that those directions 12 or those instructions would have been given to the ERT 13 members? 14 A: To the officers -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- manning the checkpoint systems, 17 yes. 18 Q: Yes. Okay. And I take it also from 19 your evidence before the judge at the injunction on 20 September the 7th that those steps that the officers 21 could take were being done pursuant to the Highway 22 Traffic Act? 23 A: Yes, and we went farther -- one (1) 24 step farther than that. I think you'll find in the 25 scribe notes somewhere in there that -- that Detective
621 Sergeant Richardson was -- was tasked with calling Crown 2 Law to make sure that we were on firm ground. 3 I think that's exactly what the scribe 4 notes say -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- with respect to -- to doing this. 7 And he did that and reported back that that was the 8 advice that we were getting that that was certainly 9 appropriate with respect -- 10 Q: Would he have reported that back to 11 you? 12 A: It's in the scribe notes -- 13 Q: I know. 14 A: -- so -- 15 Q: My question was: Would he have 16 reported that back to you? 17 A: No. I think he would have reported 18 that back to the Inspector because he was running the 19 incident and -- and it would take place within the 20 framework of one of our meetings. 21 Q: Okay. I then wanted to take you to 22 some of -- a few pieces of the evidence that you've given 23 over the course of the days that you've been on the 24 stand, just to clarify a few points. 25 A: Sure.
631 Q: You had given some evidence regarding 2 September the 4th, at the period of time when the OPP 3 were in the Park -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- and then they withdrew. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And I think your evidence had been 8 that Korosec found it prudent to leave the Park so he 9 did. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And I wonder, if it gives you any 12 assistance, again I can refer you to the scribe notes for 13 it, September the 4th, but there's an entry at 20:56 14 hours there, indicating that Korosec spoke with Carson 15 and -- 16 A: I -- 17 Q: -- got instructions to leave the 18 Park. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And I take it you'd agree that he 21 would be operating under instructions? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. At 21:45, on the night of 24 September the 4th, there is an entry in the scribe notes 25 indicating that Les Kobayashi was providing information
641 about a thousand (1,000) gallons of gas being in the 2 Park? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: On the -- you're talking the 4th? 7 Q: Yeah. And this is at page 3 of the 8 typed scribe notes. I'm sorry, this is Exhibit 426. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes, I see it. 13 Q: There's an entry saying: 14 "Les Kobayashi, that Judas was just 15 uncontrollable. A thousand (1,000) 16 gallons of gas in the tank there." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And I take it that's gas in the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at that point in time, first of 21 all, would you have had concerns about that information? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest that 24 concerns about information like that was one of the 25 reasons that inquiries were made later on that evening
651 about obtaining Nomex for the officers? 2 A: Yes, I think it was that and the fact 3 that there were flares thrown at -- Parks had a flare 4 thrown at him that night. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And our concern was that if their -- 7 their uniforms were such that if they ignited, it would - 8 - it would be very problematic, so we needed those -- 9 that -- 10 Q: Right. 11 A: -- fire retardant gear. 12 Q: Okay. You also said on your first 13 day of evidence that someone, and you thought it was 14 Korosec, had reported that the occupiers were drinking. 15 And I've looked through the scribe notes and I haven't 16 seen any reference to that, but I've seen on page 2 of 17 the scribe notes at 21:33 hours a reference that Trevor 18 Richardson advises the Natives he'd dealt with were drunk 19 at 16:00 hours. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And there's also a reference on page 22 13 at 01:10 hours that Vince George reported that a 23 person was drunk. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And I've just -- does that assist you
661 in recalling where that information -- 2 A: Yes, it may -- 3 Q: -- may have come from? 4 A: -- it -- I recall that there was -- I 5 was told about people being drunk at the incident at four 6 o'clock and I recall Vince's evidence, I mean 7 information. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: So I've -- and I know Trevor and Stan 10 were down at the boat ramp at four o'clock so that's -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: -- my mistake. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I then wanted to ask you a question 18 about the time that TRU arrived in the area. If you look 19 at Tab 20 of the black binder in front of you and I think 20 you'll have to look at Volume II, unless your book's set 21 up differently than mine is. 22 A: Yeah, I have it. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
671 A: Yes. 2 Q: And this is Exhibit P-1098. It's a 3 recording of a phone call between yourself and Inspector 4 Ed Robertson, which is timed at 10:42 hours in the 5 morning of September the 5th. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And you'll see at the bottom of the 8 first page there's a note saying: 9 "Overnight we had 1 and 2 District ERT 10 manned roadblocks (inaudible) gone to 11 bed. We have 3 and 6 District ERT up 12 here to replace them." 13 And you say: 14 "We also have a TRU team in here now." 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And I just wanted to clarify with 17 you, because we know from the scribe notes, and again I'm 18 sorry to flip you back and forth -- 19 A: No. No problem. 20 Q: -- between different documents. On 21 page 34 of the scribe notes, we know that at 11:42 hours, 22 Sergeant Skinner was onsite. And I'll just wait for a 23 minute while you find that. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
681 2 A: Page 34 -- 3 Q: Page -- 4 A: -- at 11:42. 5 Q: -- 34 at 11:42 hours, that's a 6 reference to Sergeant Skinner having a discussion with 7 Inspector Carson. 8 A: Okay. And that's on what day? 9 Q: That is on September the 5th. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Okay. And the note indicates that 12 Sergeant Skinner was told to have his team report for 13 19:00 hours that afternoon or that evening. 14 Do you see that, part way through that 15 paragraph? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, I see that. 20 Q: And similarly, if you turn the page 21 to page 35 at 13:26 hours, there's a reference there that 22 TRU team is reporting tonight by seven o'clock -- by, it 23 says, seven (7) hours, but I take it that should be 19:00 24 hours. 25 A: Probably, yes.
691 Q: Yeah. And the first reference in the 2 scribe notes to any TRU members being in the area, other 3 than Sergeant Skinner, is on page 42 which indicates at 4 16:07 hours that ten (10) guys, the TRU were at the 5 Pinery with ERT. 6 A: Okay. I see that, yes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just for the clarity 11 of the record, that -- the scribe note entry at 16:07 12 should be 18:07. We corrected that some time -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- before but -- so 15 it's 18:07. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: I just wanted to check this with you, 19 Inspector, because I anticipate that we'll hear evidence 20 from various TRU members who will be testifying down the 21 road that they weren't called out -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- and didn't arrive until later on 24 in the afternoon of September the 5th. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Mr.
701 Falconer on his feet. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 3 I'd just ask My Friend if she's going to refer to 4 anticipated evidence, could she identify the witness she 5 anticipates calling that will be making -- or that she 6 anticipates testifying will be saying that, rather than 7 simply identifying -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 9 you say the TRU team or somebody. 10 Do you have a particular witness who you 11 expect might say that, Ms. Jones? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 13 didn't -- I didn't actually anticipate this would be 14 contested. 15 As I understand there are four (4) TRU 16 members who will be testifying, including Jim Irving, 17 Mark Beauchesne and others and I anticipate they will all 18 say that they got called out in the afternoon and didn't 19 arrive until later in the afternoon. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: And I take it you don't disagree with 24 that? 25 A: I don't take issue with that, no.
711 Q: Okay. 2 A: Obviously -- I'm obviously mistaken 3 in my conversation with Robertson. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: I then wanted to move on to the night 8 of September 5 and what we've been referring to as the 9 picnic table incident -- 10 A: The morning of. 11 Q: -- which is -- well the point I think 12 I want to make is that you weren't on duty on September 13 the 5th during the night? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: You -- you came on -- 16 A: Right. I was -- 17 Q: -- in the morning of September the 18 6th? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: So you wouldn't have known what was 21 reported during the night about what happened at the 22 sandy parking lot. You weren't there when those reports 23 came in? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: Okay. You do know though that a
721 decision was made in the morning to remove the picnic 2 tables from the sandy parking lot? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And that was because they were acting 5 as a barricade, preventing access to public property? 6 A: Amongst other problems, yes. 7 Q: Amongst other -- yes. And I take it 8 that you and the others in the Command Post would have 9 wanted the removal of the picnic tables to happen in a 10 manner that was safe. 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: Sure. And I understand from your 13 evidence that you gave earlier that a fairly -- at -- for 14 that point in time, a large number of ERT members were 15 sent to the area and some were armed? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it that the purpose of 18 involving that number of ERT members was to prevent any 19 further violence; it was to protect and to make sure the 20 operation went safely? 21 A: And efficiently, yes. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 23 I'm sorry, My Friend -- My Friend's established that 24 Staff Inspector Wright wasn't on duty for -- for the 25 action. I -- I thought that was the evidence. But if
731 I'm wrong -- I apologize then. I apologize for the 2 objection if I'm wrong. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah he was on -- 4 Inspector Wright -- then-Staff Sergeant Wright was not on 5 duty during the evening but My Friend, Ms. Jones, has now 6 moved to the next morning when he was on duty. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 8 that's right. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He was on duty the 10 morning of September 6th. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I thought the 14 question was directed to when he wasn't on duty. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 she's moved to the next morning. I think. 17 Is that right, Ms. Jones? Yes. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. I 19 apologize. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Absolutely, we were -- 21 I was asking questions about the removal of the picnic 22 tables and that of course happened on the morning of 23 September the 6th -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the 25 morning when he was there.
741 MS. KAREN JONES: -- after the Inspector 2 came on duty. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: And the reason I'm asking you a little 7 bit about that operation, Inspector, is that people from 8 time to time have expressed concerns about having numbers 9 of police officers involved in a certain operation or 10 involved in doing something. 11 And I take it from the evidence that 12 you've given is that from your perspective, or maybe you 13 can help us, you'd say that it's often useful to do that; 14 it's a preventative measure? 15 A: Yes. Specifically with respect to 16 this particular incident, you know, there a number of 17 points. One is -- it was Inspector Carson's decision to 18 -- with respect to how many people he was going to send 19 down there and the manner in which they were going to 20 approach that situation. 21 And the -- the large number of officers 22 was really for two (2) reasons is in my mind. One is a 23 significant number of officers lessens the probability 24 that there's going to be any kind of problem because of 25 the sheer numbers of the officers that are there.
751 And two is that their task was to remove - 2 - I think by the time they got down there, twenty-two 3 (22) picnic tables. So you really don't want to be at 4 that a whole, you know, it -- it quickens up the whole 5 pace of the operation by the sheer number of officers you 6 have there. 7 Q: Right. And so those two (2) things 8 combined I take it, would maximize or -- or assist with 9 the possibility that the operation would go smoothly 10 and -- 11 A: That's right. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 13 we've got to take a break some time this morning. I'm -- 14 Q: Okey doke. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just 16 wondering how much longer do you have. Should we wait 17 until you finish? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I am 19 close to being done but what I'd suggest is if we take a 20 break now there were, as I said earlier, a few of the 21 logger tape clips that -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can play 23 them right after. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I'd like to play and 25 a media clip. And -- and I -- perhaps if we get that set
761 up now, when we come back it will be -- we can go 2 quickly. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 4 take a morning break now then. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 6 for fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 10:18 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 10:33 a.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: Inspector, I wanted to next follow-up 18 on two (2) things. One is that at Tab I believe 29 of 19 your binder and it's Exhibit 444A is a telephone call 20 between yourself and Ron Fox that took place on September 21 the 6th, 1995, at -- it's timed on the document I have at 22 12:06 hours? 23 A: Yes, I have it. 24 Q: And you make reference in that phone 25 call to having looked at or heard or seen media reports
771 of what was going on at Ipperwash? 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: I think you'll see that on page 2. 4 And I take it that over the course of the 4th, 5th, and 5 6th you and others would have been watching media reports 6 of what was going on -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- from time to time? 9 A: From time to time. 10 Q: Okay. There is -- Commission Counsel 11 had distributed to us a CD called The All News CD, and it 12 includes a report from CHCH on September the 6th. And I 13 wanted to show it to you and ask you a couple of things 14 so maybe you can keep them in mind while we're watching. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: The first is -- was this newscast 17 that you would have seen and the second is does it 18 reflect or does it coincide with your understanding of 19 the events at that point in time, okay? 20 A: Okay. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to 22 clarify these were made available for the parties to look 23 at. We did distribute these CD's. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
781 OBJ MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Objection to the 2 words, quote, "You would have seen these." 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You would 4 have seen these? 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would have 7 or could have? 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: We -- we don't 9 know. There's no evidence yet as to whether he has seen 10 it. I just point out that as a premise to her question 11 it was inaccurate. We don't know if he would have seen 12 it. She should actually establish that foundation. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 right. That's going to be the first question that -- 15 that's the first question Ms. Jones is going to ask him I 16 gather? 17 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- I actually thought 18 I had been quite clear with the Inspector that there were 19 two (2) reasons for this; one was, was this something he 20 saw and second was does it reflect -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- what he had 23 knowledge of at the time. So I'm sorry if that was 24 unclear for Mr. Falconer. 25 THE WITNESS: Before you play this --
791 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: -- what station is this, 3 CHCH? Is that what you said? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: This is CHCH. 5 THE WITNESS: So that's Hamilton right? 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 9 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 10 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, Mr. 12 Commissioner, we're just having some sound problems. 13 14 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: And to get back to my questions, 18 Inspector, was this media a report that you would have 19 seen at the time? 20 A: I don't think so. What was -- what's 21 the date of that, do you know the date of that? 22 Q: September the 6th. 23 A: September the 6th? 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: I would suspect I did not see that.
801 Q: Okay. In terms of the information, 2 and this is -- Mr. Sandler had asked you some questions 3 yesterday about your state of mind and your knowledge and 4 your understanding of what was going on and again, I -- I 5 sort of wanted to go back to this. 6 As of September the 6th, I take it that at 7 that point in time you would have been aware of the 8 public position taken by the Kettle and Stony Point Band 9 regarding the occupation of the Park? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what -- is what you heard on that 12 clip and I -- we've seen from Elizabeth Thunder, who gave 13 evidence earlier at the Inquiry, was that consistent with 14 what you understood? 15 A: Yes, that is consistent with what I 16 understood. 17 Q: Okay. And there's also a clip there 18 of an interview with Ken Williams who was the Mayor, 19 talking about his concerns and his view that people in 20 the area were terrified; is that consistent with your 21 understanding? 22 A: I'm -- I knew -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 24 minute, before you answer. 25
811 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Administrator. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, I'm sorry, the 3 Administrator. My mistake. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 5 administrator. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: Yes. And in terms of citizens what 10 we heard on that clip was that they were upset, 11 concerned, about what they perceived to be the lack of 12 response from the OPP and were considering being in a 13 position to take action themselves, potentially. 14 A: I certainly knew that by September 15 the 6th that when I met with those people down at the MNR 16 Park directly from them. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And I appreciated that there was that 19 general sense within the community prior to that as well. 20 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I'd like to 21 ask that that clip be made the next exhibit. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1146. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 25 I'm sorry.
821 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. She 2 didn't see it, so -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: On the basis of 4 what, he didn't see it? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He didn't 6 see it, so -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: We could -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But we've 9 all seen it. I don't think -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm not saying it 11 wouldn't be relevant if the Witness had seen it, but with 12 respect to tender it that way -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 14 how useful it is to put it in through this Witness. 15 Is there is any other you could put this 16 in? 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 18 I don't know or I don't understand whether or not at this 19 point in time you'll be calling Ken Williams or other -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 21 don't know. I don't know. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- which other 23 citizens. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 25 know.
831 MS. KAREN JONES: But there's a clip 2 including that of one of the occupiers with a tire iron 3 swearing who I understand is Robert Isaac who is now 4 deceased. And so in terms of putting it in through him I 5 know that we have in the past put in documents, for 6 example, relating to people who were deceased. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Do you 8 have any position, Mr. Millar -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it's -- in -- in 10 theory Mr. Falconer's right -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- in -- in terms -- 13 but -- and if we were in a court -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We wouldn't 15 put it in through this Witness. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it couldn't -- Mr. 17 Falconer's absolutely right and it -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- won't go in. But 20 we have marked many exhibits that were referred to that 21 people hadn't seen as part of your -- as part of your 22 investigation. I have no real objection to this being -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- marked. It is a 25 television program that we've been provided that has --
841 by -- as -- by the Ontario Provincial Police having 2 collected these things. So I have no real objection. I 3 do agree with Mr. Falconer -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- in theory if we 6 were in court, he's right but -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. We've 8 been doing that all along and it's hard to go back and 9 change that position. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Can I briefly reply 11 to -- to -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Mr. 14 Commissioner, my issue is not to try to make this along 15 the evidentiary standards of the court room, my issue is 16 that My Friend purported to play this tape on the basis 17 of finding out whether this Witness had seen it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he 19 hasn't. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now, the Witness 21 said, I didn't. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now, My Friend is 24 saying to you, I want to put this in for reasons 25 completely unrelated to this Witness because either
851 someone is unavailable or -- or to tender it to get the 2 statements of for example Ken Williams. Well, that has 3 nothing to do with this Witness or this -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- examination. So 6 if My Friend has a real reason for tendering this that 7 has nothing to do with the Witness then she should 8 basically tell us that in the first place and play the 9 tape when it's appropriate or bring a motion to tender 10 it. 11 I'm just saying my problem is in the 12 context of how she's chosen to do it, it just shouldn't 13 go in at this stage and then later if there's reasons to 14 tender this because of an unavailability of a witness we 15 can deal with that on a motion I would have thought. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, in 20 terms of this media clip being an exhibit I -- I didn't 21 tender it or I didn't play it saying that this Witness 22 knew. I asked him -- I said I was playing it for two (2) 23 reasons; one to see if he did and the second to see if 24 the information in it accorded with his understanding of 25 the state of affairs at the time.
861 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you've 2 asked him that -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: There are -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've asked 7 him about some of the items -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Some of them. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that were 10 in the clip. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: There is -- there is 12 information I think in the clip that is helpful. There's 13 information there about the explanation and the view of 14 the OPP in terms of attempts made to negotiate. One of 15 the issues that we've heard earlier is -- is evidence 16 about a low flying helicopter; we have pictures of that. 17 There is -- has been concerns made about 18 an OPP boat and it's clear from this that the boat is in 19 the water and it is clearly marked. And there's 20 information in there that this Witness agrees is 21 consistent with his understanding of the state of affairs 22 at the time. I think it's a helpful clip for those 23 reasons. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. And, 25 Mr. Millar, do you have anything more you want to say? I
871 don't want to make a big deal about this but -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, this piece of -- 3 this clip is like many other pieces of docu -- evidence 4 that we've put in that strictly speaking we would not 5 have -- you could not get in. 6 But we're here as an investigation and 7 there will be -- what I suggest we do is we simply mark 8 it and if there is an issue I'll get a witness that -- 9 that can deal with it. But there is -- we -- we spoke -- 10 we've shown some clips actually of the helicopters to 11 some of the -- the occupiers when they testified. We 12 didn't show this clip. 13 They -- although I'm -- perhaps I've seen 14 these clips too many times. I was trying to find if we 15 had marked this clip because many of the images are -- 16 are familiar but I suggest that -- that we mark it and if 17 necessary I'll call a witness to deal with it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 19 any difficulty with marking it either. We've been doing 20 that all along and it's value is another issue; it's 21 weight is another issue. I think we could mark it. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. Sure, Mr. 23 Commissioner, that would be great and I appreciate your 24 assistance with this. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have
881 any other questions? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 4 other questions? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: No, those are my 6 questions. I then would ask that we have -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 8 you do that we'd better give it a number. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1146, Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1146. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1146: CD of CHCH TV Hamilton, 14 Channel 11 Newscast re. 15 Ipperwash Prov. Park 16 Occupation, Sept. 06, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: And then, Inspector, what I wanted to 20 do was just follow up on some of the transcripts and the 21 recordings from the Chatham logger you were played -- 22 you've been played a number over the course of the last 23 several days. 24 And I just wanted to go through a few more 25 with you, essentially for the same purpose that Mr.
891 Sandler did yesterday, to confirm that they are -- the 2 transcripts that we have are accurate, and whether they 3 reflect you heard them and/or they reflect your knowledge 4 of what was going on at the time. 5 Hopefully, Mr. Commissioner, this won't 6 take too long to do it and then I just have a few 7 questions after that. So, if -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- we can do this 10 smoothly, hopefully we will be done quickly. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many of 12 these logger tapes are there? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many of 15 these tapes? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: There are five (5). 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 Okay, let's go. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: The first one is a track from 22 September 6th, 1995 at 20:19 hours and, Mr. Commissioner, 23 we have copies of the transcripts of this, if it's of 24 assistance. 25
901 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I have extra copies for the 4 witness, for you Mr. Commissioner, and for the Inquiry. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 Radio Transmission: 16 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 17 Date: 06 September 1995 18 Start Time: 20:19 hours 19 Duration of Transmission: 37 seconds 20 Conversation Involves: Lima two '2841' 21 22 2841: Lima Two, 2841. 23 Lima 2: Lima two, go ahead. 24 2841: Are you aware that they have a good-sized 25 fire going um at the west end of the park
911 right down by the lake? 2 Lima 2: There's a bonfire down by the lake? 3 2841: Ah yeah it's a bonfire it's ah just about 4 right at the west end of the park almost 5 at the road down just ah maybe fifty a 6 hundred yards back in from the water. 7 Lima 2: That's negative. Ah just a bonfire? 8 2841: It appears that way, it's a good size one 9 though. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: And, Inspector, from your review of 15 the transcript and listening to the tape, is the 16 transcript that we have, accurate? 17 A: Yes, it would appear to be so. 18 Q: Okay. And rather than spend a large 19 amount of time on these documents, my understanding is 20 that yesterday Mr. Sandler established with you that you 21 were at the -- at the -- listening to the information 22 that was coming in and were aware of the information 23 about the bonfires on the evening of September the 6th? 24 A: Yes, I was -- I was aware there was a 25 -- a general stream of information --
921 Q: Right. 2 A: -- coming in and -- 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: -- I was doing many things at that 5 time on the phone -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- and my attention was drawn to 8 numerous things. I can't say, and I don't believe I said 9 that I remember this specific one but this is -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: This is the type of information -- 12 Q: The general information -- 13 A: -- that was coming in. 14 Q: -- that was coming in. And 15 Inspector, I don't know if you can help us with this, but 16 I understand that the call number 2841, was that from the 17 H.H. Graham that -- 18 A: I have no idea. 19 Q: -- is the boat? You don't know? 20 A: I have no idea. 21 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, could we 22 mark this transcript as the next exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1147, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1147: Transcript of Lima 2 and
931 2841, track number 2019(b), 2 20:19 hrs Sept 06,1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: And the next call, or sorry, the next 6 transcript is from September the 6th, 1995. It's timed 7 at 20:37 hours and it's track number 2037. 8 9 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 Radio Transmission: 12 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 13 Date: 06 September 1995 14 Start Time: 20:37 hours 15 Duration of Transmission: 53 seconds 16 Conversation Involves: Lima two '2841' 17 18 2841: Lima two ah twenty eight forty one 19 Lima 2: Twenty eight forty one are you calling 20 Lima 2 21 2841: Twenty eight forty one ah we're calling 22 Lima 2 is that you 23 Lima 2: Ten four go ahead 24 2841: Just for your information that fire we 25 told you about earlier is a lot bigger now
941 than what it was, ah there's still a 2 number of people around it, there's also 3 what appears to be another fire further 4 back in and there's all kinds of vehicular 5 movement inside the park all over the 6 place in there and they're now driving 7 along from the east to the west down 8 towards the west boundary of the park, ah 9 right along the beach 10 Lima 2: Ten four? 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we have a 15 copy of that transcript? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, we do. Sorry, Mr. 17 Commissioner, I'm behind the eight (8) ball here. Do you 18 have -- you have -- 19 THE WITNESS: I have a -- I have a copy 20 of this from the package that was -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: -- handed to me some time 23 earlier. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 25 where it is? It's in the same package that Mr. Sandler
951 gave us? 2 THE WITNESS: And it's accurate. I -- I 3 would agree that what I heard is accurate with the 4 transcript that I have before me that I -- I received 5 from Mr. Sandler, I think, yesterday. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. Perhaps we'll 8 use -- to mark the copy that Mr. Sandler had provided 9 because this particular copy has some errors. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 20:37 is the 13 correct time? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. So if we could 15 mark the copy provided by Mr. Sandler that Inspector 16 Wright has -- 17 THE WITNESS: It's page 14, Your Honour. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- as the next exhibit. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page? 20 THE WITNESS: Page 14 of the package we 21 have. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1148, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1148: Transcript of Lima 2 and 25 2841, Chatham logger 0146,
961 track 12, 20:37 hrs., Sept. 2 06, 1995. 3 4 THE WITNESS: It's the package that 5 starts with 19:39 hours of September the 6th, it's page 6 14. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got it 8 now. That's fine. And what exhibit number is that? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1148, Your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1148. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, 12 the next transcript is September the 6th, 1995 at 20:21 13 hours and its track number 2021. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that in 15 this book? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: And I have copies of 17 this document, if it's of assistance. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: And just to give you some assistance, 22 Inspector, this call and the next two (2) calls are ones 23 that deal with information about vehicles coming in and a 24 pick-up truck. And I know Mr. Sandler took you to the 25 entry in the scribe notes yesterday about the blue pick-
971 up truck coming in. 2 And so this just sort of fills in the gaps 3 of the transcripts that are not yet exhibits. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 September 6, 1995 8 20:21 9 Track # 2021 10 11 Unit A: Two points. Number one, we have two 12 vehicles ah that came through our 13 checkpoint from Kettle Point, obviously 14 opposed to the native persons in ah the 15 park. We were unable to convince them not 16 to go down there. They're in a blue pick- 17 up truck down in the beach area where the 18 initial incident the rock throwing 19 occurred. Secondly, the vehicle with the 20 flames has been reincarnated and driving 21 on the Army Camp. 22 Lima 2: Yeah, ten four ah confirm there's two 23 vehicles from Kettle Point a blue pick-up 24 truck ah that came in ah on the beach. 25 Unit A: The blue pick-up truck went through our
981 checkpoint he's down around the beach area 2 now and there's a vehicle that was dead is 3 now risen on the Army Camp Road. 4 Lima 2: Ten four. 5 Lima 1: Lima Two, Lima One. 6 Lima 1: Lima One to the unit identifying the blue 7 pick-up. 8 9 Unit A: Go ahead. 10 Lima 1: Are the occupants native? 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: And Inspector, can you tell us from 16 your review of the transcript and hearing the recording 17 whether the transcript is accurate? 18 A: I would say it's accurate. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There is one (1) -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: The initials, yeah. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- where it says 22 'unclear' it should be 'initial.' It's in the fifth line 23 down. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
991 Q: It says they're in a blue pickup 2 truck down in the beach area wherein in brackets it says 3 "(unclear)" and I think what Mr. Millar's indicating is 4 that it should say, 'Initial incident -- rock throwing 5 incident.' 6 Would you agree with that, Inspector? 7 A: I didn't catch that but I don't -- 8 I'm sure Mr. Millar is right. 9 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, could we 10 mark this as the next exhibit please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1149, Your Honour 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1149: Transcript of Track number 14 2021, 20:21 hrs, Sept 06, 15 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Inspector, the next transcript is 19 September the 6th, 1995 at 20:23 hours and it's track 20 number 2023(a). And from our review it looks like this 21 is a continuation of the previous call. 22 As you'll recall the last call that we 23 played, the last question was, "Are the occupants 24 Native?" 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we have a
1001 copy of this one? Is it in -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, I do. Mr. 3 Commissioner, I'm losing myself, I'm sorry. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 12 13 September 6, 1995 14 20:23 15 Track # 2023(a) 16 17 Unit A: That's 10-4. There's a a vehicle unknown 18 I/A with the pick-up it's parked right on 19 Army Camp Road at the mouth of the 20 entrance now and there's having a lot of 21 vehicle traffic on the camp side towards 22 the park now. At least four or five cars 23 passing us now. 24 Lima 1: Ten four. 25 Unit B Does the pick-up ah have lights on the
1011 roof I/A (first name of unit A operator)? 2 Unit A: That's ten four Davey. I/A I believe it's 3 two males, one female and a male. 4 Unit B: Yeah 10-4 that's Bernard George Kettle 5 Point councilor. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There are a couple of 10 minor changes on that transcript. It -- in the second 11 sentence it -- the -- where it says, "at the mouth of the 12 entrance now" and it's -- where it says, "unclear," it 13 should read, "there is a lot of vehicle traffic on the 14 camp side" and I think it said "coming towards the Park 15 now." 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: With those corrections, Inspector, do 21 you agree that this transcript is consistent with the -- 22 with the recording that we've heard? 23 A: Yes. And I believe the second last 24 line where it says, 'that's 10-4' and it's unclear, I -- 25 I believe it's -- that's '10-4 Davey.' (phonetic)
1021 Q: Davey? 2 A: Is the individual's name. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And Mr. 4 Commissioner, with those corrections, could we make this 5 the next exhibit, please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1150, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1150: Transcript of Track number 9 2023(a), 20:23 hrs, Sept. 06, 10 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: And the last is a September the 6th, 14 1995 transcript of a 20:42 recording, and it's track 15 number 2042. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 18 19 September 6, 1995 20 20:42 21 Track # 2042 22 23 Checkpoint Alpha: Lima Two this is Checkpoint Alpha. 24 Lima 2: Go ahead Alpha. 25 Checkpoint Alpha: For your information the blue
1031 pick-up truck with the lights on 2 top, two males and female from 3 Kettle Point just went through 4 Checkpoint Alpha and are leaving the 5 area. 6 Lima 2: Ten four. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 9 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: And, Inspector, having listened to 13 the tape, are you satisfied that's consistent with the 14 transcript? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, Mr. Commissioner, if we could 17 make this the next exhibit, please? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1151, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1151: Transcript of Track number 22 2042, 20:42 hrs, Sept 06, 23 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1041 Q: And, Inspector Wright, I'm sorry 2 again to move you around documents, but if you go to the 3 scribe notes, which I believe are at your Tab 18, at page 4 74 at 20:22 hours, there is a notation -- 5 A: Page what again, ma'am? 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: What was the page number? 8 Q: Page 74. 9 A: Thank you. 10 Q: And it's Exhibit 426. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at 20:22 hours, again there's: 16 "A report of Kettle Point people in 17 pick-up who are opposed. Have arrived. 18 A blue pick-up." 19 And you'll agree that's consistent with 20 what we've just listened to? 21 A: Yes -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- I would agree. 24 Q: And I then wanted to ask you a -- 25 just a few more questions Inspector. And if you can keep
1051 your book of scribe notes open because I wanted -- the 2 next area I wanted to ask you about was the issue of the 3 evacuation of women and children; we heard two (2) calls 4 yesterday from Mark Dew regarding that. 5 And I wanted just to take you to the 6 scribe notes to clarify something, if I can. We see in 7 the notes at page 74 at 20:26 hours. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: There is a direction: 10 "Dale Linton to comm. centre, I want 11 TRU to stay at Pinery ready." 12 And then there is the notation of the 13 call: 14 "Mark Dew called Dale Linton reporting 15 Native women and children moving out as 16 they report something is going to 17 happen." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And I take from that that when the 20 first call came in from Mark Dew concerning the 21 evacuation of women and children where they're moving 22 out, TRU was still at Pinery? 23 A: It would appear to be so, yes. 24 Q: Right. And we then go on to 20:29 25 hours.
1061 A: Right. 2 Q: And there is the notation: 3 "Mark Dew reports kids are about to be 4 picked up as women feel something is 5 going to happen." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And if you turn to the next page, 8 page 75, you see after that at 20:34 hours, that TRU has 9 left Pinery. So I take it you would agree it appears 10 again that the calls were coming in about women and 11 children leaving the Base before TRU ever left Pinery? 12 A: Yes, I would agree with you. 13 Q: Yeah. I then wanted, Inspector, to 14 go to a different area. And this is to follow up on 15 questions and answers that were asked and given yesterday 16 about evidence that you gave on September the 7th in 17 respect of the injunction. 18 And one of the questions that Mr. Millar 19 had asked you was about the evidence that you gave to 20 the judge when you had said, "The CMU said move back, 21 move back" as they started towards the Park. 22 And I think your evidence yesterday was 23 that you said that based on your understanding that that 24 was a standard operating procedure. 25 A: Right.
1071 Q: And I wanted to follow up on that 2 area. I understand from your evidence that you were an 3 ERT member prior to and up until 1993? I think you said 4 in your evidence on -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- the first day that in 1992, 1993 7 you were a Team Leader. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And I take it that your experience 10 with ERT was prior to and up to that time? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And after, in 1993, I think you've 13 told us that Stan Korosec then became the Team Leader 14 because you were moving onto other things. 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Okay. I anticipate that we're going 17 to hear evidence from George Hebblethwaite that up until 18 1993 the OPP had what was called Crowd Control Units or 19 Public Order Units. Do you -- do you agree with that? 20 Can I -- can I take your -- 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: -- mind back to that time? 23 A: Yeah, I can't remember. 24 Q: Okay. I -- I anticipate he'll also 25 give evidence that starting in 1993, there was a
1081 reorganization or a change from the old Public Order or 2 Crowd Control Unit and a new entity called 'ERT' was 3 formed around that time. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I think that's right. Somewhere 8 around there. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I mean when I was -- when I was 11 involved with that Unit -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- my recollection is we were called 14 ERT. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I know that after I left -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- the duties of ERT became quite a 19 lot more complex than when I was with -- 20 Q: That's right. 21 A: -- the ERT team. 22 Q: That's right. 23 A: And -- and for instance, I -- I don't 24 recall ever having been issued the -- the gear -- the 25 Crowd Management gear --
1091 Q: Right. 2 A: -- that the officers had. 3 Q: Right. So that change would have 4 happened after you were finished with the Unit? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Okay. I anticipate that we'll hear 7 from George Hebblethwaite that the first training of -- 8 of the sort of new unit or ERT took place in August in 9 1993. 10 And I take it you weren't involved at all 11 in that training? 12 A: August of '93, no, I wouldn't. 13 Q: And the first Crowd Management 14 training took place in June of 1994, and again, you 15 wouldn't have been involved in that training? 16 A: The first Crowd Management training? 17 Q: Yes. For -- for ERT, took place in 18 June of 1994. 19 A: I would have no idea about that. 20 Q: Okay. And the reason I'm asking you 21 these questions about when you were actually involved is 22 because I anticipate that we'll hear from George 23 Hebblethwaite and others that there was no standard 24 operating policy for ERT, that new formation as of 1993, 25 to do something like, say, move back as they were
1101 proceeding -- 2 A: Well, I -- 3 Q: And I take it you would be unfamiliar 4 with what the standard operating procedures were for that 5 new group. 6 A: I'm just -- I'm a little confused 7 with -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- that in that, I mean, I don't 10 think there's any doubt that a CMU unit moved down the 11 road that night in a particular formation. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: I think what you're telling me is 14 that they hadn't had training before they moved down the 15 road, so I don't know how one could proceed the other. 16 Q: No, no. I'm not suggesting that to 17 you at all. What I'm trying to do is orient you to a 18 time frame -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- as to what a witness will testify 21 to. 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Which is that the first training for 24 ERT, he will say, took place in August of 1993, and 25 you've told us you weren't --
1111 A: August of -- 2 Q: -- involved in that. 3 A: -- 1993, okay. 4 Q: And that the first crowd management 5 training of ERT took place in June of 1994, and I think 6 that you have confirmed that you wouldn't have been 7 involved in that either. 8 A: I would agree that I wouldn't have 9 been involved in that -- 10 Q: Okay. And -- 11 A: -- either. 12 Q: -- I'm just suggesting to you, that 13 because you were not involved in either with the ERT 14 training or the crowd management training, that you may 15 be mistaken or you might not have information about what 16 the standard operating procedures for ERT were as of 17 September 1995. 18 A: I can tell you, in my mind, that 19 that's what -- what I understood was the standard 20 operating procedure is what I've testified to. 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: I may very well have been mistaken 23 and -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- I stand to be corrected if I was,
1121 but that's the best I can do with respect to that 2 particular area. 3 Q: Sure, okay. 4 OBJ MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner. 5 I object to My Friend's question only to this extent, 6 if you're going to tell a witness they're mistaken, it's 7 probably a good idea to tell them what they're mistaken 8 about, even though the witness has obviously -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- been quite co- 11 operative -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- think I 13 understand -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I might be mistaken 15 about -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. I 17 think I understand it, I -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no. By 19 inference, we all can guess what she's talking about, but 20 when you say to a witness you might be mistaken about a 21 standard operating procedure -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Operating 23 procedures. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- you probably 25 should say which part of the standard operating
1131 procedure -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: "Move back, 3 move back." 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- part of his 5 evidence. That's right -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 That's -- 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well that could be 9 -- we're guessing, but I'm asking My Friend to be fair to 10 the witness and the evidence. There is a situation where 11 this witness, while being -- by being Mr. Sandler's 12 client, so to speak, is going to be quite easy to get 13 along with, with the OPPA, but for the rest of us who are 14 listening, we -- we should get some clarity on what it is 15 he's acknowledging he might be mistaken about. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 17 pretty clear, but if you want to ask another question or 18 two (2) to make sure everybody is on the same page. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I thought it was quite 20 clear as well -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- but if it's not -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 24 referring to the -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I would be happy to
1141 do that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 3 referring to the, "move back, move back." 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: Sure. And in terms of the standard 7 operating procedure, I -- I take it you didn't have any 8 misunderstanding I was referring to the, "move back, move 9 back." 10 A: That's what I understood -- 11 Q: That's right. 12 A: -- you were speaking about, yes. 13 Q: That's right. And in terms of that 14 being related to the standard operating procedure in 15 question, there's no doubt in your mind that's what I was 16 talking about? 17 A: That's what I took that -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- we were discussing, yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: I then wanted to take you, just 24 briefly, and it sort of takes us back to where we started 25 this morning, because I started out asking you about
1151 powers of arrest and under the law what can happen with 2 respect to detaining people. 3 And I wanted to ask you a couple of 4 questions. We started, sort of, in 1993, and I now want 5 to take you to September of 1995, regarding the arrests 6 that were made at Strathroy Hospital. 7 And you had agreed with me that the person 8 who was the person in charge -- and let me just make sure 9 I have my language perfectly clear here, so that there's 10 no confusion. 11 You had agreed that either the peace 12 officer, i.e., the person who arrested the person, or an 13 officer in charge, can make the decision about whether or 14 not a person ought to be released, either conditionally 15 or on conditions? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Okay. And I take it that in a 18 situation such as what happened at Strathroy Hospital 19 that there were we know three (3) people arrested and I 20 take it you would agree with me that after the arrests 21 were made the decisions about detention and whether or 22 not people ought to be released would have been made by 23 the officer in charge as opposed to the arresting 24 officers or do you know? 25 A: Well, my -- in my mind at that
1161 particular time they were one and the same. 2 Q: The -- in your mind the arresting 3 officer was the same as the officer in charge? 4 A: Right. And -- and it comes to as far 5 as we -- and we're talking about release, is that what 6 you're asking me about? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I mean, release doesn't become an 9 option until you've satisfied a number of requirements -- 10 Q: Right. 11 A: -- that allow you to deal with the 12 possibility of release. So when the arrest was made I 13 didn't expect -- the circumstances were such and the 14 situation was such that I didn't expect that that kind of 15 a decision was going to be made instantaneously -- 16 Q: Right. 17 A: -- merely because of the situation 18 that we were in and we didn't have all the information. 19 It's a dynamic situation. You -- you act as best you can 20 in good faith with the information that you have and then 21 you continue in a diligent manner to determine what 22 you're going to do with those people vis-a-vis the arrest 23 and the continuation thereof. 24 Q: Okay. Just -- just to get back to an 25 earlier point that you made that you understood at the
1171 time that the arresting officer and the officer in charge 2 were the same person have you since learned that that 3 wasn't the case? 4 A: Yes, but just -- and I don't -- I 5 think it was very -- not very long ago at all. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I think in preparation for coming 8 here that -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- I was made aware that it was not 11 the people who I thought it was. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you, Inspector, those 13 are my questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Ms. Jones. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, it 17 was close but not quite. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Close but 19 not quite. The next examiner I believe is Mr. Myrka on 20 behalf of the Province. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your 25 estimate was forty-five (45) minutes, is that still
1181 reasonable? 2 MR. WALTER MYRKA: It's going to be a 3 little less, Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 9 Q: Good morning, Inspector Wright, I'm 10 Walter Myrka on behalf of the Province of Ontario. 11 A: Good morning, sir. 12 Q: I just -- I just have a few questions 13 for you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Yesterday in your evidence when Mr. 18 Sandler was playing various tape transmissions and 19 providing you with the transcriptions of those tapes you 20 summarized the situation that you recalled you were in, 21 that is you and the other officers, on the evening of 22 September the 6th. 23 And you talked about how in your view 24 there was an escalating amount of activity that was 25 spilling out of the Park onto the roadway.
1191 A: Right. 2 Q: Do you recall giving that evidence? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you expressed concerns, for 5 example, because Constable Whelan who you described as a 6 very calm and cool and collected officer was at the point 7 where he was expressing concern about his own personal 8 safety? 9 A: That's what I took him to mean, yes-- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- by those comments. 12 Q: And from your perspective the 13 situation generally appeared to be getting worse? 14 A: Yes, I would say -- yes, I would 15 agree. 16 Q: Okay. And you were concerned about 17 the situation spinning out of control; is that -- is that 18 fair? 19 A: I -- I don't know if spinning out of 20 control is the best term. I was concerned that there was 21 -- appeared to be an escalating amount of activity in and 22 around the sandy parking lot area and out onto the 23 roadway and I was concerned about the -- the public 24 safety issue there. 25 And -- and I think that's -- and -- and
1201 potentially the people who lived in and around that area 2 attending at any moment. 3 So I don't know if that's spinning out of 4 control, I just wanted to put somewhat of a finer point 5 on that. 6 Q: Okay. A better way of putting it is 7 you were concerned about everybody's safety in the area? 8 A: Yes. I was concerned about public 9 safety, general public order there. 10 Q: Okay. And you had concerns about the 11 safety of your officers and the safety of the members of 12 the local community, such as the cottagers who lived 13 adjacent to the Park? 14 A: Everybody. 15 Q: Okay. And you were concerned for the 16 safety of the occupiers themselves, wouldn't that be 17 fair? 18 A: Sure. Insomuch that I wanted them -- 19 my intent was that and although I wasn't running the -- 20 the incident as it were, that I wanted those people moved 21 either back into the Park, which would have been fine 22 with me and had they not moved into the Park, then 23 arrested for whatever appropriate criminal offences there 24 were. 25 That's -- was my concern with respect to
1211 the people out in around that area. 2 Q: Okay. And in terms of the -- the 3 escalating amount of activity that you saw, one of the 4 concerns that seemed to be expressed in some of those 5 transmissions were the greater number of vehicles that 6 seemed to be arriving on the scene, not only cars, but 7 also things like ATV's? 8 A: Yeah, and that's consistent with the 9 info -- you know, that fall -- flows into the -- the 10 information we have from Dew earlier about, you know, the 11 women and children are -- are leaving because something 12 might happen. 13 Well, something might happen and more 14 people arriving in that area -- and you have to take that 15 in the -- in the spirit in which it's meant, that the 16 mere fact that a whole -- a great number of vehicles 17 moved down into the Park, as long they stayed in the 18 Park, I mean, they could roar around there all night, as 19 far as I was concerned. 20 Once they started to move out of the Park, 21 then it becomes a concern, because we -- you know, what - 22 - what happened in the Park, as long as it stayed in the 23 Park, from a policing point of view, from my personal 24 point of view, was -- was something that wasn't going to 25 be of a concern to me, as far as the policing was
1221 concerned. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. And one of the concerns you 3 expressed was the -- the tension -- potential for there 4 being weapons among the occupiers? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now, just on that front, part 7 of that concern would have been illustrated by the 8 evidence that you gave earlier about being told that, 9 words to the effect, that, We'll do our talking with 10 guns, We'll settle this with guns, or words to that 11 effect? 12 A: Words to that effect, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And that was part of the 14 evidence that you placed before Justice Daudlin on the 15 morning of the 7th of September at the time of the 16 injunction application. 17 A: Right. And my mindset at the time of 18 the injunction was certainly different on the morning of 19 September 7th than it was on the evening of September 20 6th. 21 Q: Yeah, okay. And I take it as well 22 that one of the concerns you would have had on the 23 evening of the 6th was that the occupiers themselves were 24 not talking, they weren't negotiating with your officers? 25 A: One of the concerns I had --
1231 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- on the night of September the 6th 3 in respect to what was taking place on the sandy parking 4 lot area? 5 Q: Yes. Just the general situation, the 6 concern about public safety and what steps you needed to 7 take and what the officers needed to do to dispel those 8 concerns. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. -- 10 MR. WALTER MYRKA: My question -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Myrka...? 12 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It strikes 14 me that you're going over the evidence that we've already 15 heard. 16 MR. WALTER MYRKA: All right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 18 a reason for something new? 19 MR. WALTER MYRKA: It's just a point I 20 need to make -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I think 22 the evidence -- 23 MR. WALTER MYRKA: -- and then I'll move 24 on. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that
1241 we've been asking about is exactly the way it came out 2 in-chief. 3 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So far. 5 MR. WALTER MYRKA: And -- all right. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 8 Q: And just if I might, the point I 9 wanted to make, Inspector Wright, is that you were 10 concerned because the occupiers weren't telling you what 11 it was that they wanted, and that was part of the 12 information you needed to dispel the situation; is that 13 fair? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Well, I -- I had a general concern 18 that they weren't communicating with us, sure. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I don't know so much as that -- that 21 played a big part in my mindset with respect to the night 22 of September the 6th and what was taking place in that 23 particular area. 24 Again, my overriding concern was we needed 25 to move them back into the Park as I've given in my
1251 evidence and whether -- however the Incident Commander 2 determined that we should do that was fine with me as 3 long as we did that. My -- that was my concern is we 4 needed to either move them back into the Park or arrest 5 those individuals who failed to do that. 6 So as far as exactly communicating with 7 them, that would be in respect to just returning public - 8 - that -- that area back to what I would call an orderly 9 area where that they were back inside the Park and we 10 didn't have this problem. 11 Q: All right. After the events on the 12 night of the 6th and we're now in the early morning of 13 the 7th, you -- you'd indicated in your evidence 14 yesterday that you -- you had provided orders for 15 perimeter security at the Detachment? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And you talked about how four (4) 18 officers were assigned to that role. 19 A: At least. 20 Q: At least four (4) officers. 21 A: Yeah those are the only ones I 22 recall, there could have been more. 23 Q: Okay. And indeed, you gave us the 24 names of those officers -- 25 A: Right.
1261 Q: -- as best you could recall them. I 2 wanted to ask you about what other steps for security of 3 officers and others, do you recall were taken immediately 4 after the violence on the night of the 6th? 5 What I'm talking here, just as an example, 6 yesterday in your evidence you talked about how the SIU 7 needed to speak to the members of the TRU team and how 8 the members were asleep at that point at a motel. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Do you recall the steps that would 11 have been taken if indeed any steps were to preserve the 12 physical safety of those officers? 13 A: I recall vaguely that something was 14 done about -- I know they were sent to their motels and I 15 recall that I think some officers were sent to -- into 16 the parking lots where these officers were staying. But 17 I had many other -- that wasn't -- that didn't -- I 18 wasn't tasked to do that. 19 I had other things to do during that time. 20 That wasn't -- that wasn't my -- my job. 21 Q: All right. And did you have anything 22 to do with taking any security measures for the MNR staff 23 that were on site such as Mr. Kobayashi or might that 24 have been somebody else who dealt with that? 25 A: I -- I don't recall doing that.
1271 Q: Okay. And on the 6th -- 2 A: I -- I do recall the -- the First 3 Nations OPP officers that I spoke about -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- there were four (4) of them, that 6 we had received a specific threat to those officers. So 7 I -- and I've given evidence to the steps that I took 8 with respect to trying to do something about their 9 safety. 10 Q: Okay. And earlier in the day on the 11 6th, you managed to speak to members of the local 12 community such as the neighbouring cottagers. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Did any of those people express 15 concerns to you or -- or seek police help in terms of 16 their own security? 17 A: I don't recall that happening. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know if that was 19 something that was addressed by anyone, it may not have 20 been yourself, after the -- the events on the night of 21 the 6th? 22 A: Well, I -- I think our -- our general 23 overwhelming presence in and around that area -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- with the checkpoints and the
1281 patrols and the helicopters in the air, you know, among 2 other things was meant to give the people within the 3 communities there, a sense of safety that, you know, we 4 were there in a very visible manner in order to protect 5 property and people and public safety. 6 Q: Okay. Now, yesterday in your 7 evidence you were asked if you had any recommendations 8 for the Commission and you spoke of the need for better 9 communication. 10 And I'm wondering if you could elaborate 11 on that. I recall your evidence was that the -- the 12 police need a pool of individuals for the transmission of 13 information between the different sides. 14 A: Well, I think my evidence was that it 15 would be helpful if that -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- there was a pool of individuals 18 with the, you know, the appropriate skill set that both 19 sides could feel confident in, so that information could 20 -- they could be used as a messenger, as it were, to pass 21 the information between the concerned parties so that 22 there's -- there is a flow of information. 23 Because, as I said, I thought that our 24 inability to communicate -- and I'm not for one (1) 25 second suggesting that this is solely anybody's fault
1291 that -- and what I mean by that, I don't want it to 2 appear that I feel that this is the First Nations people 3 in that Park. I mean it goes both ways. 4 We were all there and we all needed to do 5 a better job so that this didn't happen, and we need that 6 -- that middle ground so that we can communicate our -- 7 our relative positions. 8 I understand now that the people in the 9 Park didn't want to talk to us because they didn't want 10 to identify a -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- spokesperson for fear that that 13 may target that person to some particular police 14 activity, and that the mere thought that they would talk 15 to us would weaken their position because they're -- as I 16 understand it from the Inquiry is that their position was 17 that their -- their argument was with the Federal 18 Government. 19 Well, you know, from a personal point of 20 view I had no idea that was their concern. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: And that would have been helpful. 23 Q: And -- and when you gave your 24 recommendation, if I heard you correctly, you indicated 25 that in your view you're sure that this -- this tragedy
1301 would not have happened had there been that better 2 communication? 3 A: That's my -- that's strictly my 4 personal opinion. I would have liked -- I'd like to 5 think that if we were able to communicate, then -- then 6 this wouldn't have happened. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 12 Q: Now, when you testified before 13 Justice Daudlin, do you recall saying that Mr. Manning 14 told you that he was glad to have the burial ground back? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Did Mr. Manning expand upon that in 17 any way, or did you ask him about it, just to provide 18 something more specific? 19 A: No, I did not. 20 Q: Okay. So -- 21 A: My mind set was very clear back then 22 that the Province of Ontario owned that Park, because 23 that's what I was informed by Inspector Carson and I had 24 complete faith that that was, in fact, the -- accurate 25 and that was my operating mind.
1311 Q: Okay. And you -- you indicated to 2 Justice Daudlin, as well, that as far as you understood 3 Chief Bressette's position, it was that there wasn't a 4 burial site in the Park? 5 A: That was my understanding, yes. 6 Q: Okay. Did -- did the occupiers of 7 the Park ever indicate to you, or to anyone else that you 8 may have heard about, where, within the Park, there might 9 be an alleged burial ground or where there was such a -- 10 such a spot? 11 A: No, because they never -- we -- we 12 didn't -- we weren't able to communicate. 13 Q: Okay. Did you speak to MNR staff at 14 all about this issue of whether there was a burial site 15 or not within the Park? 16 A: No, again, I -- I knew -- I knew of 17 the -- and I've given evidence to this, that I knew of a 18 particular area, a point on -- within the boundaries -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- of the Park that had significant 21 cultural meaning to the First Nations community. And I 22 remember Inspector Carson taking me to that point and 23 telling me that there was an arrangement that they were 24 allowed, that that is the First Nations people were 25 allowed, at any time, to go and visit that area.
1321 So that's -- that's all I knew about any 2 kind of sacred or important or traditional ground within 3 the Park proper of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 Q: And that spot that you were taken to, 5 do I understand that you were told that it was important, 6 culturally -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- to the First Nations community? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Was anything said to you about a 11 burial site within the context of that discussion? 12 A: No, the area -- I mean, it would be - 13 - it was -- it's right on the water's edge. There's -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- I think, a shale foundation there 16 and it certainly wouldn't be appropriate for a burial 17 ground, as far as I'm concerned. And that was never 18 mentioned as part of that area having significant -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- cultural meaning to the First 21 Nations people. 22 I remember John telling me why it was, but 23 it just -- it escapes me now. 24 Q: Okay. But do I take it to -- what 25 you're alluding to is that because it's essentially
1331 bedrock, it may indeed be impossible for there to be a 2 burial site at that specific location? 3 A: As I saw it in 1995, I mean, I don't 4 know what -- what it looked like -- you know, the First 5 Nations people have been here a long time, but at that 6 particular time, that's what it looked like to me. 7 And again, my operating mind was Carson 8 told me, John told me -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- that, you know, that it had 11 significant cultural meaning to them, but if it was a 12 burial ground he would have told me and we wouldn't have 13 -- you know, we wouldn't have been in the sort of 14 policing action that we were because, clearly, there 15 would be colour of -- you know, there would be colour of 16 right, as far as I was concerned -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: If somebody told me that, you know, 19 Mark, there -- there lies a burial ground for the First 20 Nations people, well that would be that. 21 Q: Okay. And so when you testified 22 before Justice Daudlin, you told him what Bert Manning 23 had said to you about a burial site. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And you also explained your
1341 understanding of what Chief Bressette's view was. And I 2 take it that what you did for the Court was provide to 3 Justice Daudlin all of the information, and the best 4 information you had, about the existence of a burial 5 ground at Ipperwash Park? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Is that fair? 8 A: Right. As best I could, yes. 9 Q: Okay. Now, before you gave your 10 evidence on the 7th, did you speak to Mr. McCabe? 11 A: Did I speak to Mr. McCabe? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: That morning? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: I think I did. 16 Q: Okay. Do you recall what you would 17 have spoke to him about that morning? 18 A: It's just a vague memory. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I think we, once again, went over the 21 -- the manner in which I was going to give my evidence. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: And I'm sure I would have briefed him 24 on the events that had taken place since the time him and 25 I had talked earlier that evening.
1351 But as to specific details, I don't -- I 2 don't recall. It was -- 3 Q: Indeed, you'd had almost no sleep at 4 that point. 5 A: That's right, yes. And I was -- I -- 6 I can remember, quite clearly, feeling that I had a 7 significant task before me. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: And that weighed heavily on my mind, 10 besides the fact, you know, the -- again, I've alluded to 11 this over and over, as to what happened down there, that 12 that certainly had a -- an effect on me as well. 13 Q: Okay. And you also spoke to Mr. 14 McCabe the evening before? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Okay. And as part of that, you 17 recall that, at least at some point, Mr. McCabe's view 18 was that the injunction application, that is the Court 19 documents, should be served on the occupiers in advance 20 of the hearing? 21 A: That was his position? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I think he wanted us to try to do 24 that, yeah. 25 Q: Okay.
1361 A: Yeah, I would agree with that. 2 Q: And as events unfolded, it just 3 seemed to be impossible to do that before the morning of 4 the 7th? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Okay. All right. Now, were you 7 present in Court before Justice Daudlin throughout the 8 whole proceeding? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. So you left at some point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And were you there when 13 Justice Daudlin gave his order and provided his reasons? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. So you didn't -- you didn't 16 hear the Court in terms of providing a condition that the 17 -- that the documents were to be served by helicopter? 18 A: I didn't personally hear that? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: No, I did not personally hear that -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- that's when I thought -- 23 Q: And when did you hear about that? 24 A: I can't remember. I -- maybe Les 25 told me, Kobayashi or -- I can't remember.
1371 Q: All right. And it was some time 2 after? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. Okay. Now, just if I 5 might go back to Mr. Kobayashi. In your evidence, you'd 6 indicated that you'd invited Mr. Kobayashi to the command 7 post? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: That was my evidence. 11 Q: And that -- 12 A: Well, I suggested that that take 13 place -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: That would have been Inspector 16 Carson's call, not mine. 17 Q: Okay. And that, in hindsight, you 18 indicated that you didn't think that was a very good 19 idea? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And was that because of the possible 22 public perception that MNR, as the owner of the property, 23 might be perceived as -- as the -- as a victim and that 24 the OPP might be perceived as in some sense helping the 25 victim as opposed to just being concerned about public
1381 safety? 2 A: No. It goes -- goes more to -- what 3 I meant was that, generally speaking, regardless of the 4 police action, it's not a good idea to have the person 5 who's involved in that; that if -- whether they be the 6 complainant or the victim or -- if they're not -- if 7 they're -- if they have something to do with the incident 8 that you're try -- attempting to deal with as a police 9 officer, it's not a good idea to have them involved in 10 the operational planning because that's just not a good 11 way to do business. 12 I mean the -- you take from them the 13 information that you require and then you make decisions 14 based on what your police experience and the law allows 15 you to do. 16 And they just shouldn't be there because 17 it creates -- it creates problems. 18 Q: And just as part of that, I take it 19 you wouldn't disagree with the suggestion that Mr. 20 Kobayashi's presence was useful in that he was able to 21 provide information that assisted police? 22 A: Absolutely he was useful. But the 23 point I'm making is we should have -- in hindsight, we 24 should have brought him in, spoken to him, got what 25 information we required from him and then asked him to
1391 leave and then continued with our operational planning. 2 That, in my view, would have been, in 3 hindsight, the more appropriate way to have dealt with 4 that. 5 Q: Okay. And how did you see Mr. 6 Kobayashi as involved in operational planning? 7 A: Pardon me? 8 Q: Did you see Mr. Kobayashi as being 9 involved in operational planning? 10 A: Well the mere fact that he was there 11 in -- in meetings when we were talking about operational 12 activities, I think, necessarily, makes him involved in 13 operational planning. 14 Q: Okay. And that's because he's there. 15 A: He's there. 16 Q: And he can hear -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 A: -- what the officers -- 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: -- are doing and saying. 21 A: That's right, yeah. 22 Q: And that's what your concern was in 23 terms of him being there? 24 A: Right. Well, and -- and again, we're 25 speaking from a hindsight point of view --
1401 Q: Sure. 2 A: But information went from the -- from 3 the operations or the -- you know, the decisions that we 4 were making, led by John, in that command post, and 5 information went from there out to via MNR, as I 6 understand it now, to Les' bosses, I guess. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: And it caused confusion and it 9 required time to deal and -- with that situation and set 10 people straight. Well that's just time that an incident 11 commander and all those that are dealing with -- like we 12 -- we should be dealing with the problem and not problems 13 that are created by the mere fact that we're meeting. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: It just takes away from our ability 16 to do our job effectively. 17 Q: Okay. But the information he was 18 able to provide to you, and this is just him providing 19 information to you and your officers, would it be fair to 20 say that some of that information was invaluable to you? 21 A: Was valuable? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 23 said that. 24 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Was invaluable. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already
1411 said that. 2 MR. WALTER MYRKA: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 7 Q: Thank you, Inspector Wright, those 8 are my questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. Myrka. Thank you. You did stay within 11 the time limit. You were much shorter, thank you. 12 Ms. McAleer...? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 17 Q: Good morning, Inspector Wright. 18 A: Good morning. 19 Q: My name -- my name is Jennifer 20 McAleer and I'm one of the lawyers acting for the former 21 Premier Mike Harris. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: On the first day of your testimony 24 you told us that on August 3rd you'd had a briefing by 25 Inspector Carson wherein you had been informed that Grand
1421 Chief Ovide Mercredi might be coming to mediate internal 2 First Nations issues. 3 Did you receive any further information 4 about what became of the possibility of Mr. Mercredi 5 acting as a mediator? 6 A: I know he didn't. That's why -- 7 Q: Do you know why? 8 A: No, I don't know why but my -- my 9 recollection is he did not -- he did not come down. I 10 think he -- my recollection is he offered and the offer 11 was not accepted. 12 Q: Now, you've already provided 13 testimony about September 5th and your attempts to open 14 communication with the occupiers within the Provincial 15 Park. 16 You indicated that when you went down on 17 September 5th with Mr. Kobayashi and Staff Sergeant 18 Seltzer that you had noticed that there were a number of 19 natives over by the Camp store and although there hadn't 20 been any real dialogue with respect to getting Glenn 21 George, there had been some conversation. 22 And I just wanted to ask you if you recall 23 today the nature of that conversation. Can you recall 24 what you said or what was said to you? 25 A: Generally speaking or specifically?
1431 Q: Well, I'd like to hear specifics -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- if you recall. If you don't then 4 I'd be interested in your general recollection. 5 A: Well, I'm unable to provide to you 6 specifics ten (10) years later but I can tell you it was 7 generally speaking we were attempting to draw anybody 8 over to us to engage in conversation and they were 9 generally speaking saying that they weren't going to do 10 that. 11 Q: Now, you say "we" were trying to draw 12 others over to -- to participate in a conversation. 13 Did Mr. Kobayashi or Staff Sergeant 14 Seltzer also call out to the individuals that were within 15 earshot? 16 A: You know I -- I don't remember. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I don't remember. I doubt it. 19 Q: Now, again on September 6th you 20 indicated that you went down this time with Marg Eve. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And again you indicated there were 23 people over by the Camp store and there was some yelling 24 on that occasion. 25 A: Right.
1441 Q: Again do you recall either 2 specifically or generally what it is you said to them and 3 what they may have replied to you? 4 A: Same sort of thing. I remember a 5 young lad came right up to us and I recall him saying 6 that he was happy he was out of school that day. 7 Q: Yes, you told us about that. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Apart from that. 10 A: And -- and I -- I do recall that Marg 11 also attempt -- was engaging the people as well. I 12 specifically remember Marg talking as well. 13 Q: Do you remember what she said or to 14 whom? 15 A: No, I don't. I don't. 16 Q: I take it from your evidence that on 17 September and September -- September 5th and September 18 6th when you were down in the sandy -- 19 A: Sorry, pardon me. 20 Q: Go ahead. 21 A: We're just talking about the people 22 at the store right? We're not talking about the car and 23 the -- 24 Q: No, -- 25 A: Okay.
1451 Q: -- because you've already given us 2 your evidence -- 3 A: All right. Okay. 4 Q: -- about what you recall unless you 5 recall something in addition? 6 A: No, no. I just -- no, I... 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: In conclusion then, despite your 10 efforts on September 5th and September 6th down in the 11 sandy parking lot you were left with the impression that 12 nobody within the Provincial Park was interested in 13 engaging in any negotiations with you? 14 A: That's exactly right. 15 Q: And then finally you -- you testified 16 on day 2 of your evidence that at some point you were 17 made aware that the Premier's Office was aware of what 18 was going on in this part of Ontario but that that sort 19 of thing wouldn't have been of any concern to you because 20 it didn't have anything to do with the duties that you 21 were required to do? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Now, I take it that remained your 24 view throughout -- remained to be your view throughout 25 September 5th and September 6th?
1461 A: Yes. 2 Q: Is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Thank you, Inspector Wright. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 I think Mr. Beaubien; I think Mr. 8 Sulman's up next. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Good morning, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning. 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I'm not sure whether 17 that's coming through very clearly or not. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 20 Q: Good morning, Inspector Wright. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: My name's Doug Sulman and I represent 23 Marcel Beaubien who was the MPP at the time. 24 Mr. Millar's examination covered several 25 years by way of time frame and many events. My focus for
1471 you is going to be much narrower. In fact some of it may 2 -- may just have been taken up but I'll try to be concise 3 with it. 4 So, sir, if you would turn to the scribe 5 notes. Do you have that? I don't know how yours are 6 assembled but page 24 of those scribe notes is what I'd 7 like you to turn your attention to. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 18. You've got 9 them there -- 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- I think, Exhibit P- 12 426. 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, Mr. 14 Millar. 24. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 18 Q: Do you have 24 in front of you, sir? 19 A: I'm there, page 24. 20 Q: Okay. And I realize it's been two 21 (2) weeks now, but in your examination two (2) weeks ago, 22 you told Mr. Millar that you were present at the meeting 23 that occurred on 9:25 on September 5th, 1995, right? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And if you can look at the bottom of
1481 the page of the scribe notes that marks that meeting, it 2 says: 3 "Trevor Richardson inquires about MNR? 4 John Carson replies MNR is working on 5 an injunction. Trevor Richardson 6 requests that we have them fax it, we 7 will need it." 8 Do you see that, sir? 9 A: I do. 10 Q: So by this time, the officers 11 present, which would include Carson, Richardson, Bell, 12 Korosec, Seltzer, Dennis and yourself -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- were aware that an injunction was 15 intending to be sought, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And by 9:25 on September 5th, in your 18 view or understanding, it was the OPP position that the 19 OPP would need an injunction before you considered taking 20 any action for the removal of the occupiers of the Park, 21 right? 22 A: Right. Well, my position, my 23 understanding then was that once we got an injunction we 24 would take action -- 25 Q: Right.
1491 A: That was my understanding. 2 Q: But you needed the injunction before 3 you took any action. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And that's what it means when it 6 says, we will need it? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. So if you can turn to the top 9 of the next page, which is page 25. 10 And it's -- it says: 11 "John Carson discussed issued [which I 12 assume means issue] about injunction." 13 A: Right. 14 Q: "Stated the party the injunction is 15 against has the option to appear. 16 Doubtful it will happen today." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: "Advised that Sergeant Lacroix has 19 been in contact with Marcel Beaubien, 20 local Member of Parliament. He is 21 updating the Premier on the situation." 22 You see that? 23 A: I do. 24 Q: And so when you received the 25 information on September 5th at or near 9:25 in the
1501 morning that Marcel Beaubien, in quotation marks, "is 2 updating the Premier on the situation", end of quotes, 3 you received that information with the knowledge and 4 awareness that an injunction is going to be sought, 5 right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And that that injunction is going to 8 be necessary or be needed prior to the removal of any 9 occupiers from the Park, right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Okay. So just -- just help me 12 recall. Your evidence is that you had never communicated 13 with Marcel Beaubien prior to September 7th, 1995, right? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And you hadn't seen any 16 correspondence, any press releases, from Mr. Beaubien 17 relating to either West Ipperwash, CFB Ipperwash at the 18 time or the army camp, or Ipperwash Provincial Park, 19 right? 20 You hadn't seen -- 21 A: Prior to -- 22 Q: -- any of that? 23 A: -- September -- 24 Q: September 7th. 25 A: -- 7th?
1511 Q: That's right. 2 A: No, I certainly don't recall that 3 ever seeing anything from Mr. Beaubien. 4 Q: Okay. And on Wednesday morning, if I 5 could take you back again a couple of weeks. 6 A: Wednesday morning of -- 7 Q: February 22nd, -- 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: -- 2006. 10 A: All right. 11 Q: You told Mr. Millar -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- and the quote that I see in the 14 transcript is: 15 "That the Premier's office was 16 obviously aware of what was going on in 17 this part of Ontario." -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- end of quote, okay. And at least 20 by 9:25 on September 5th, you were aware of that fact? 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: And by the phrase, "what was going on 23 in this part of Ontario," you were referring to the fact 24 that a Provincial Park had been taken over and occupied 25 by a group of First Nations persons without the consent
1521 of the MNR, right? 2 A: Sure, yes. 3 Q: And so it didn't come as any surprise 4 to you that the Premier of Ontario would be aware of the 5 hostile takeover of the Provincial Park, did it? 6 A: It didn't come as any surprise. I 7 really didn't give a -- I didn't even give it that much 8 thought, to be quite frank with you. 9 Q: Okay. But it -- 10 A: John passed on the information and 11 that was that. 12 Q: Well, I suggest to you -- it would be 13 surprising if the Premier of Ontario wasn't aware, 14 monitoring or following the takeover of a Provincial Park 15 in the province of which he's the Premier, right? 16 A: I -- you know, I -- I don't know. 17 For me personally -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: It just -- it was neither here nor 20 there. So I don't know what would cause the Premier 21 concern -- 22 Q: Okay. Well, I mean, it didn't give 23 you any concerns? 24 A: It didn't give me any concern. I 25 didn't, yeah, that's right. It didn't give me any
1531 concern. 2 Q: And by saying it didn't give you any 3 concern, you mean that the Premier was following or 4 monitoring didn't give you any concern. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Okay. And the local member of 7 Provincial Parliament, the fact that he'd be updating the 8 Premier or the Premier's office, such as we see at the 9 top of page 25 being reported to you. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Right. That wouldn't surprise you 12 either? 13 A: Well, again, I wouldn't have given 14 that any thought. I mean, the fact that the MPP was 15 aware of what was going on, I -- I was aware of that. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: But the fact that he was going to 18 report up -- I wasn't aware, nor am I still not aware, of 19 the standard operating procedures for MPP's to report 20 whatever. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: So, I mean, I know we reported -- I 23 can tell you, and I know that when we were -- my 24 experience as a police officer is that when we were 25 involved in incidences that there's a possibility that a
1541 -- a question may come in -- up in the Legislature, that 2 we would report up the chain of command and they would do 3 a -- a document and that would get to the -- the 4 Government so that they could answer any questions in 5 relation to that. 6 So, I mean, that's as far as my mind would 7 ever go to anything. If I was tasked to, Look we need 8 information because there's a -- a topic that might come 9 up and you -- you're the guy who has the information 10 because you're the individual on the ground. 11 But beyond that, it just -- it really 12 didn't have anything to do with me. 13 Q: Okay. I understand that. And so 14 your response when you hear that kind of information is 15 my obligation is simply up the chain of command and my 16 orders come down the chain of command? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Okay, I understand that. But I want 19 to be specific with some issues because -- 20 A: Yeah, I appreciate that. 21 Q: -- they come up throughout. So 22 having that information that the Premier was aware, I 23 just want you to confirm, you're aware that he's 24 monitoring the situation, you're aware that the local MP 25 has updated the Premier's office, can you confirm to me
1551 that since this didn't have any -- you say it didn't have 2 any affect, I take it that you weren't intimidated by 3 this knowledge. 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it also, to be very 6 specific, that knowledge didn't influence your 7 performance of your sworn duties -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- on September 6th? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And you're at the meeting of -- of 12 September 5th at 9:25, and there are other officers 13 there. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Now can you tell me, from any 16 comments those officers made, or from your observation of 17 those officers, whether there's any indication to you 18 that any of them, who had also heard the same information 19 that you did, whether they showed any indication, through 20 their actions or words, that they were intimidated by the 21 knowledge that had been imparted to them at this meeting 22 about the Premier and the MPP? 23 A: Not that I recall, but you'd probably 24 have to ask them. 25 Q: Well, we will do that. But I wanted
1561 to know your observations. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. The beauty of coming a little 4 bit later is that I can eliminate several things. You -- 5 you -- I guess what you told me earlier is that your 6 reporting function was up the chain of command and down 7 the chain of command. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: So I guess it's self evident, but I 10 just want to clarify for the record that the fact that 11 Rose Marie Ur who is the MP and you were aware -- 12 A: Right, right. 13 Q: -- that she had -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- imparted some of her constituents' 16 concerns to -- to the OPP -- 17 A: I'm not sure if I was aware of that 18 or not. 19 Q: Okay. Were you aware that Fred -- 20 Mayor Fred Thomas imparted his concerns? 21 A: Yeah. Yeah. I spoke to him right on 22 the -- I believe it was him, on the afternoon of 23 September the 6th down at the TOC with the people down 24 there. I believe that was who was down there. 25 Q: Okay. And were you aware that he had
1571 spoken to -- to Inspector Carson? 2 A: I -- well I've seen it in the -- the 3 scribe notes and I don't know if I was there when that 4 took place but -- 5 Q: Okay. I take it, from what you told 6 me, you didn't feel that these persons, these politicians 7 had any power or authority over your actions as an OPP? 8 A: No. No. 9 Q: Okay. As I said I take it as self 10 evident. I take it you also didn't feel that they had 11 any impact on your career or your promotion -- 12 A: No. No. 13 Q: -- with OPP. And that your career 14 and promotion would be affected by those who were your 15 superior officers, not by politicians? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And those are the people -- 18 A: And -- and my performance. 19 Q: Exactly. I would think so, yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And those are the people who you look 22 to for orders or directions, that is, your superior 23 officers? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Okay. Now by September 5th, the
1581 press, as you told Ms. Jones, was reporting on the 2 takeover of the Park and reporting on the local citizens' 3 concerns regarding the takeover, right? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: You told Ms. Jones that earlier. And 6 that was all within your knowledge? 7 A: Sure, I knew the press was there. 8 Q: Okay. And it's fair to say that 9 while the police strategies and tactics weren't in the 10 public domain -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- the fact that the takeover had 13 occurred, the fact that the public's reaction to the 14 takeover was in -- that was in the public domain? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And by September 6th, the fact 17 that there was an increase of police presence, that there 18 was a build-up of the police, that there was more police 19 visibility, that -- those facts would be evident to 20 anyone in the area at the time, correct? 21 A: Well, the -- prior to September 6th 22 that would be evident. It would be -- 23 Q: Sometime -- 24 A: Some -- or I would say -- 25 OBJ MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Commissioner, I
1591 object to the last question: It would be evident to 2 anyone within the area? With respect, that -- that goes 3 way beyond this Witness' abilities. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Ask 5 him if it would be evident... 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 8 Q: Well, you didn't need to -- there was 9 a clip from a Hamilton station, I can't remember which 10 one. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: CHCH, that's 12 what it was. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 15 Q: CHCH, and you didn't see that clip? 16 A: No, there was a -- 17 Q: But you told us -- 18 A: There was an overwhelming police 19 presence there as of the early morning hours of September 20 the 5th. Come daylight there was checkpoints and 21 patrols, and there was an overwhelming police presence. 22 Q: And it wasn't co -- well, all I want 23 to know is it wasn't covert, it was -- 24 A: No, it was absolutely not covert. 25 Q: -- it was open and visible?
1601 A: Right. 2 Q: Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, if we 3 can go back to two (2) weeks ago again -- 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: -- February 21st, you -- in your 6 evidence on that day you told Mr. Millar about a meeting 7 with the West Ipperwash Beach Owners' Association. 8 Do you recall -- recall that evidence? 9 A: Back in -- 10 Q: 1993. 11 A: At Chatham? Yes, I remember that, 12 yes. 13 Q: And it occurred in the Chatham 14 office? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: As opposed to in this local area? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And I believe, also, that you told us 19 that Wade Lacroix of the Petrolia office was in -- may 20 have been in attendance in that meeting? 21 A: Yeah. That's my recollection from my 22 notes. I believe it's in my notebook. 23 Q: Okay. And at that meeting the 24 cottagers and landowners -- this is in 1993, sir. 25 A: The cottagers and landowners, yes.
1611 Q: At that meeting the cottagers and 2 landowners told you about their concerns about their 3 safety, and concerns for the safety of their property, 4 and the concerns about their ability to safely use West 5 Ipperwash Beach, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And their concerns, back in 1993, 8 were as a result of the First Nations claims to certain 9 portions of the West Ipperwash Beach, right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the cottagers told you that they 12 were also concerned with the level of police patrols at 13 that time, and the police response to complaints, right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And I take it, then, sir, that it 16 wasn't -- that wasn't knowledge that was isolated to you, 17 you passed that up the chain of command to your superior 18 officers? 19 A: I think the -- my superior officers 20 were there -- 21 Q: Okay. So you -- 22 A: -- at the meeting. 23 Q: Can you confirm for me then that 24 Inspector Carson would be aware of that? 25 A: Oh, I don't think Inspector Carson
1621 would be aware of that at that particular time; that was 2 back in 1993 and I -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- think he's moved -- he'd be in 5 London by then. 6 Q: Is that right? Okay. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Had you passed along the concerns 9 when you were reporting to Inspector Carson that -- 10 A: About West Ipperwash? 11 Q: About West Ipperwash? 12 A: Well, he was the Detachment Commander 13 in Forest -- 14 Q: Right. 15 A: -- prior to his promotions, plural, 16 and my recollection is that, as a Detachment Commander in 17 the Forest area, my mind set was that he was already 18 alive to this problem because as the Detachment Commander 19 he -- he was the -- the manager of that detachment that 20 policed that particular problem, amongst other problems. 21 Q: Fair -- fair enough. Thank you. I 22 take it in the time frame, though, between 1993 and 1995, 23 you would have had occasion to interact and have 24 conversations with the cottagers and residents at the 25 West Ipperwash Beach and Port Franks area, in your normal
1631 duties as an officer? 2 A: Very limited, very limited. 3 Q: Okay. But some? 4 A: Some, but not much. 5 Q: Okay. And did you, from time to 6 time, either hear from the residents or cottagers, or 7 continue to hear from people in the community, 8 expressions of concern or fear for their safety, their 9 personal property? 10 A: Directly? 11 Q: Yeah, directly. 12 A: Did I directly hear from them? 13 Q: Well, directly or through whatever 14 sources you might employ to obtain intelligence? 15 A: I -- I had a general sense that their 16 concern in the West Ipperwash beach area continued 17 throughout that time. 18 You know, just by the -- the -- the 19 occurrences that -- and you can check, you know, the 20 logs -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- are helpful and the occurrence 23 reports are helpful, by the complaints that the people 24 had down there, but my position -- at that time I was a 25 Detective Sergeant --
1641 Q: Right. 2 A: -- and I ran a squad of detectives. 3 So I would have very little to do with -- it wasn't like 4 I was out on patrol or anything and I'd be talking to 5 these people, like, normally a uniform officer would 6 attend at an occurrence. 7 If it was such that it required the 8 expertise of detectives, then it would come to my 9 attention. I would assign detectives and I would manage 10 it, but I wouldn't necessarily have to go to the scene. 11 So my contact with these people would be 12 very limited. 13 Q: Okay. I understand the distinction 14 you're making, but you were aware that there was a 15 continuing -- that there wasn't an isolated concern in 16 '93 and then again in '95 -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: It was a continuing concern? 19 A: Right. And I think the logs 20 demonstrate that. 21 Q: Yeah, and I don't want to go into the 22 detail of that for purposes of my examination -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: But what I really want to move 25 forward to is the summer of 1995 and particularly after
1651 the takeover of the built up area of the army base, okay. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: And in that time frame, with the -- 4 with the incidents that you've been alerted to by 5 uniformed officers, and any conversations that you have 6 had with cottagers and residents, are -- you -- were you 7 still aware or were you continuing to be aware of the 8 concerns of the cottagers in that area? 9 And was there any elevation in their 10 concern as a result of the takeover of the army base, 11 that you were aware of? 12 A: I would say no. I don't think there 13 was an elevation in concern because of the takeover of 14 the army base. 15 I think that -- that takeover was pretty 16 specific and I think the First Nations people who did 17 that did a fairly reasonable job with getting that 18 message out with respect to CFB Ipperwash. 19 Q: Okay. Were you aware of allegations 20 of high powered lights being shined into residences by 21 the -- at -- alleged to have be undertaken by -- 22 A: At West Ipperwash, I was -- 23 Q: At West Ipperwash? 24 A: I recall that, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And was that after the
1661 takeover of the army base or pre the -- 2 A: I thought it was pre. 3 Q: Okay. Very good. 4 A: And that would be, obviously, a 5 separate and distinct problem anyways. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. And in the time frame, though, 9 after the takeover of the army base, you had heard 10 suggestions from Park -- and after the takeover of the 11 Park, or maybe we should go to there. 12 Did you see any elevation or were you 13 aware of any elevation of concerns of the residents, 14 cottagers and residents of the area as a result of the 15 takeover of the army -- of the Park on September 4th? 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Sure I was. 19 Q: And you told us earlier that you were 20 aware that there were suggestions from the occupiers, I 21 believe, maybe Glenn George in particular, but generally 22 that there was a suggestion that the Park takeover would 23 expand beyond the Park borders? 24 A: There -- 25 Q: Right?
1671 A: -- was that suggestion, yes. 2 Q: Right. And it was to -- I believe, 3 if I've got this right, there was an expression that, Go 4 to a farmer's field, you told us that just a little bit 5 earlier, right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Was there a suggestion that it would 8 expand as far as Northfield. 9 A: I -- there was -- when -- my 10 recollection is Speck and Parks were told that by Mr. 11 George, Glenn George, that Ravenswood was next, and I 12 think you'll find that in the scribe notes. 13 Q: Okay. And Pinery Park? 14 A: At some point Pinery Park, I recall. 15 But as to when Pinery Park came into play, I just -- I 16 can't remember. 17 Q: Now, these -- what you've reported to 18 us in your earlier evidence that this -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Commissioner, it's 20 not necessarily My Friend's fault, in the sense that the 21 question -- there's a disconnect between the question and 22 the answer in the evidence he's eliciting. 23 I'm concerned about the level of -- of 24 probativeness or speculative nature to it. 25 My Friend's asked, were you aware of a
1681 concern in the community as to X and the witness 2 answered, Well, two (2) police officers told me of a 3 statement by occupiers. 4 There's a complete disconnect between 5 whether that was a concern in the community or simply 6 information gleaned from statements by occupiers. And my 7 concern is that we're sort of now on the premise that if 8 he gets this information it must be concerns in the 9 community which, obviously, one does not lead to the 10 other, other than through sheer speculation, that -- and 11 if that's the speculation, fair enough, but that should 12 be brought out, with respect, if it's helpful to you. 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I haven't -- I'm 14 still on officers at this point -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- that he's 17 received the information from the officers -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You did say 19 something about the community and there's a bit -- 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Prior to that. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. I think that -- 23 that piece -- that this question related to officers and 24 the community question was answered. I think his answer 25 was he didn't know.
1691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He didn't 2 know. All right. I want you to carry on because I know 3 you're almost finished. 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I am. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Go 6 ahead. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 9 Q: I hadn't -- I hadn't asked whether -- 10 I mean you're getting this information from officers. 11 That's where I was headed. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Okay. And you have intelligence, and 14 you're receiving information back from officers, and you 15 still have communications with people in the community. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And are you receiving the same type 18 of information from people in the community of concerns 19 over an expansion of the takeover of the Park, to the 20 areas we just talked about? 21 A: Are we getting -- I don't recall -- I 22 don't recall getting that directly. I re -- there was no 23 doubt in my mind there was a general sense of concern by 24 the community as a result of the takeover of the Park and 25 whether it was going to go any further.
1701 Q: Okay. And were you passing along the 2 information that you were receiving from the officers 3 reporting to you, were you passing that information along 4 to your superiors? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Carson and Linton? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so they were aware of the same 9 things that your were hearing? 10 A: Well, I don't know if Linton was 11 aware. I mean, I -- I had a direct reporting 12 relationship to Carson; he was the day shift guy. Linton 13 was the night shift officer. And there would be 14 information that I would be privy to during the day when 15 Linton was asleep and I would tell Carson. 16 And whether or not Inspector Carson 17 briefed Inspector Linton is unknown to me. So like -- 18 Q: That's -- 19 A: -- I can't -- that would be the most 20 accurate answer for that question. 21 Q: That -- that's why I asked. It was 22 different for Carson, different for Linton -- 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: -- that's fine. Okay. And -- but is 25 it your view that -- that the members of the Detachment
1711 at the Forest Detachment -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- were well aware of the activities 4 and the views in the community with regard to an 5 expansion of the takeover -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 7 how he can answer that. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He can't answer that 9 question. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 11 how he can answer that. 12 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I'm sure he can't. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 right. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 17 Q: Okay. So you were -- you were aware, 18 though, of -- of the -- you were aware of the concerns 19 about the expansion; you've told us that. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: So you didn't need to hear about the 22 concerns of the constituents, the cottagers, with regard 23 to safety, with regard to personal property, and with 24 regard to the expansion. 25 You didn't need to hear about that from
1721 either Rose Marie Ur, Mayor Fred Thomas or Marcel 2 Beaubien? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 4 how he can answer that question. 5 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, he was already 6 aware. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, he was -- he told 8 us -- well, the record will show what he told us he was 9 aware of, but this started -- this little exchange 10 started with what he was aware of about with the 11 expansion of the camp and he said what he was aware of 12 and -- from the officers. 13 And he, at other times, was aware of other 14 things. I don't know if you can just bundle them all 15 together and ask this question. I don't think he can 16 answer it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 18 think so either. 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: That's one -- that's 20 one of the difficulties with -- with trying to sum up 21 rather than go through it -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 23 right. It -- summing up is a good time for it. 24 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: And you know -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not as a
1731 question. 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: You know, Your 3 Honour, that's exactly what I'm going to do well within 4 the time that I predicted. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, Your 8 Honour and thank you, Mr. Wright. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much, Mr. Sulman. I would like to try to carry on 12 if we could, but I'm afraid that we're going to -- do you 13 still have a ten (10) minute estimate? 14 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I don't have any 15 questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 17 have any questions? Well then you're next up then. No 18 questions. That's fine. 19 And the last examiner, then, before we 20 reach the Aboriginal parties is, I believe, Ms. Clermont 21 for Lambton Shores. If we can deal with that. Your 22 estimate was five (5) minutes, five (5) to ten (10) 23 minutes. Is that still realistic? 24 MS. JANET CLERMONT: I think three (3) to 25 five (5) minutes will be more --
1741 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well let's 2 deal with that and then we'll break for lunch. Is that 3 alright? 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JANET CLERMONT: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Wright. 7 A: My name is Jane Clermont and I 8 represent the Municipality of Lambton Shores. 9 And the only area that I was interested 10 in, that I have questions on, is with respect to the 11 meeting with the group of citizens on -- on the evening 12 of the 6th, the group of thirty (30) to forty (40) 13 residents who gathered at the MNR parking lot. 14 And when you were speaking to the group 15 and you were reassuring them that the OPP was -- was 16 going to remain and solve the pro -- until the problem 17 was solved, do you recall if you indicated or conveyed to 18 the group that it was your intention, the OPP's intention 19 to contain and negotiate? 20 A: That was -- yes. 21 Q: And that would have been consistent 22 with Operation Maple? 23 A: Right. Right. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Yes.
1751 Q: Thank you very much, that's my 2 questions. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry, Mr. 4 Commissioner. I just want to clarify one thing -- 5 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Oh, Project Maple. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- was My Friend 7 talking about the Military Operation Maple or -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just 9 assuming -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- are we doing the 11 Project Maple? I just -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I just 13 assume -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The two (2) are 15 very similar and -- 16 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Project Maple. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- one leads to the 18 other, but of course -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, well -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 for the clarification. We don't need -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The editorial -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 25 need --
1761 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the editorial 2 comments. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I was referring 4 chronologically that one led to the other, that's all. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't think -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: First there was -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no evidence -- 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- operation then 9 there was project -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no evidence of 11 either of that, either. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much, Mr. Falconer. We're going to -- 14 MS. JANET CLERMONT: I apologize for the 15 confusion. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Project Maple is 18 what I was referring to. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 We are now going to -- to break for lunch. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's just one 23 matter that I wanted to raise. I understand that Mr. 24 Rosenthal has his usual difficulty on the -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With his
1771 math class on Mondays. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: With his math class on 3 March the 20th and I understand that he and Mr. 4 Klippenstein has -- have agreed to switch places. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 6 deal with this after lunch, but if you don't finish, I 7 mean, we're not sitting tomorrow or Thursday. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And then I would 9 ask your indulgence to go over to the 21st. And the 10 other ... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You have to come -- 15 yeah, Mr. Rosenthal said, for the purposes of record, 16 that if he doesn't get finished then, but he's hopeful 17 he'll get finished this afternoon -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hopeful that 19 he does. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he 22 hasn't -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The other parties have 24 agreed that he could come -- finish on the 21st. But 25 hopefully we won't run into that problem.
1781 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, but 2 once we start, we're going to be into it, so we'll have 3 to deal with it after lunch. 4 We'll see where we are. Thank you, we'll 5 break for lunch now. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 7 adjourned until 1:30. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 12:15 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 1:36 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 15 to start with you, Mr. Rosenthal and hope that we get 16 finished if not close and whatever is left we'll put over 17 to the following Tuesday. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you very 19 much, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I appreciate that. 22 I appreciate your and My Friends' indulgence. Sorry for 23 the inconvenience. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL:
1791 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 2 A: Good afternoon. 3 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm one 4 (1) of the counsel for a group of Stoney Point people 5 under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, you told us this morning and I 8 believe earlier in your evidence as well that you think 9 the big failure here was a failure of communication 10 between the OPP and the Stoney Point people occupying the 11 Park; is that right? 12 A: Yeah. I thought that was one of the 13 major problems, yes. 14 Q: And had there been a person who could 15 have facilitated such communication, a person who had the 16 respect of both parties, the OPP and the people in the 17 Park we might have had a different outcome to this event? 18 A: I would hope so, yes. 19 Q: And that were if there had been such 20 a facilitator, such -- that would have solved the problem 21 that you learned about only later that some of the people 22 in the Park didn't want to be identified as spokespeople 23 right? 24 A: Yes, that would have been information 25 that we would have had that would have been I -- I think
1801 very helpful. 2 Q: And it would have also though been 3 helpful because there might be some distrust between the 4 occupiers and the OPP but a neutral third person might 5 overcome that mistrust as far as communication as well? 6 A: I think if there was that perception 7 on either side that that individual would eliminate that, 8 yes. 9 Q: Yes. Now, you and John Carson worked 10 closely together on the Ipperwash from, I gather, May 11 1993 through September 1995; is that correct? 12 A: Sure, yes. 13 Q: And did you know Inspector Carson 14 prior to May 1993? 15 A: Yes, I did, yes. 16 Q: Just very briefly, what was your 17 previous interaction with him? 18 A: The first time I ever recall meeting 19 him, he was a corporal in Chatham and I was a constable 20 in Glencoe and that would have been in the late -- mid to 21 late '80's. 22 And then I was transferred over to what 23 was then One District, Sombra Detachment and he was an 24 N/C -- I think he was a staff sergeant, I think Blenheim 25 or Ridgetown for a while and then he went to Forest and I
1811 got to know him that -- that way. 2 Q: So approximately what year are you 3 talking about? 4 A: When I first met him? Or when I got 5 to know him? 6 Q: Well, what -- what span of years are 7 you talking about, sir? 8 A: Probably '87 maybe, 1987/'88, 9 something around that. I knew -- I knew of him and I'd 10 seen him but right around then I -- I would -- we started 11 to, I guess, some sort of a professional relationship, 12 I'd -- I'd see him. 13 Q: And had you worked directly together 14 prior to May of 1993? 15 A: I don't recall -- no. No, I don't 16 think so. 17 Q: In any event during the more than two 18 (2) year period, May 1993 to September of 1995, you told 19 us you developed a quite close working relationship with 20 him. 21 A: Well -- yeah, we communicated -- that 22 -- that -- the more time went, the closer our working 23 relationship came because as you well know, things 24 started to happen in that area where we would see more 25 and more of each other.
1821 But initially it was more of a reporting 2 relationship but I got to see him more and more as things 3 progressed. 4 Q: Yes. So initially the -- the formal 5 structure of you being second in command, we could say 6 and him being in command, played a greater role whereas 7 after a while as you worked closer, you became more of a 8 team? 9 Is that fair to say? 10 A: Well I -- I wasn't his second in 11 command. I -- I think that that happened, certainly that 12 happened when we went to the incident, you know, four 13 (4), five (5), six (6). Prior to that I didn't consider 14 myself as second in command. 15 I was the Detective Sergeant and then the 16 Detective Staff Sergeant on the ground as it were in that 17 area reporting directly -- directly to him in regards to 18 Ipperwash incidents. 19 But also reporting to, for example, well 20 there was a whole range of people depending on who was 21 retiring and leaving at the time but, you know, there was 22 Inspector Linton was in Chatham for instance at some 23 point. So I -- I was reporting to a number of people. 24 But that -- that second in command or 2I/C 25 or assistant to John really didn't unfold until, you
1831 know, September 1st or -- I would say by the planning 2 when we were planning at Chatham, I think that became 3 fairly -- because he makes the point that I was going to 4 be his assistant. 5 Q: So -- so the second in command only 6 arose at that point as you indicate. But -- but you had 7 a close working relationship that -- 8 A: Oh yeah. 9 Q: -- got closer and closer over the two 10 (2) year period from May '93 to September '95. 11 A: Yeah that's fair, sure. 12 Q: And you thought it was an exceptional 13 relationship you found for that kind of a situation? 14 A: I enjoyed a very healthy relationship 15 with him, yes, that was a positive relationship with him. 16 Q: And generally you felt that he in the 17 course, certainly in September of 1995 shared with you 18 the important aspects of the plan and you conversely 19 discussed with him the important aspects of the plan? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now I gather that you didn't know 22 Inspector Ron Fox well or at all perhaps as of September 23 1995; is that correct? 24 A: At all, I did not know him at all. 25 Q: But you -- you heard of him. You
1841 knew that he was the liaison officer with the Government? 2 A: No. 3 Q: But -- 4 A: I don't recall that -- the only time 5 that I -- the first time I recall having anything to do 6 with Inspector Fox was that telephone call, and I don't 7 know if there's incidents in the log where Inspector 8 Carson at the time Inspector Carson, mentioned Ron Fox. 9 But that would have been one of many names 10 to me. I didn't know the man. 11 Q: I see. So you -- when Inspector 12 Carson might have mentioned some OPP liaison officer but 13 if he said the name Ron Fox, you don't recall and if he 14 did, it wouldn't have meant much to you; is that fair? 15 A: That's fair, yes. He may very well 16 have mentioned Fox and he may have said he was a liaison 17 officer but it wouldn't -- it didn't stick with me. 18 Q: But he -- he did talk about some 19 liaison officer who had been in -- in touch with the 20 public? 21 A: I don't -- I don't even recall that 22 either. 23 Q: I see. 24 A: The first time I recall that I can 25 tell you with respect to Fox and liaison is when I had
1851 that telephone conversation and he said he was doing 2 liaison; I think he mentioned something like that. 3 Q: When you had a telephone conversation 4 with Inspector Fox? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Yes. Now, what about with respect to 7 Inspector Linton? I gather you didn't have as close a 8 relationship with him as you did with Inspector Carson; 9 is that fair? 10 A: Close in -- 11 Q: Work -- 12 A: -- personal relationship or...? 13 Q: Or -- or working relationship? 14 A: No, well I worked fairly closely with 15 Inspector Linton. 16 Q: I see. Okay. 17 A: On -- not on Ipperwash deals, but he 18 was my commissioned officer at Chatham when I was the 19 Detective Sergeant and Detective Staff Sergeant, so the 20 nature of the reporting relationship was he would be my - 21 - he would be my supervisor, specially when I got to 22 detective staff sergeant or acting detective staff 23 sergeant. 24 I would report -- he would be my immediate 25 person to report to. So we -- we did have that type of
1861 relationship. 2 Q: I see, thank you. Now, I gather that 3 when the OPP is conducting a significant project, they 4 often give it a code name, you might say, a name that 5 doesn't, to the general public at least, identify the 6 nature of the project; is that fair? 7 A: Right, sure. 8 Q: And do -- they choose various names? 9 A: Agreed. 10 Q: In this case, we're told it was 11 Project Maple. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Trees are often the topic and -- 14 A: Trees was the topic this time, yes. 15 Q: This time, and that's not unusual? 16 A: No, I would say that was not unusual, 17 I guess. 18 Q: Could be the name of a bird or 19 something like that? 20 A: Could be, yeah. 21 Q: Is -- 22 A: I can give you an example if you'd 23 like. 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: I was involved in the -- in the
1871 Walkerton investigation. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And that project was called H2O, so 4 there's -- 5 Q: That -- 6 A: You know, that's what it was called. 7 Q: That wasn't such a good code name, it 8 doesn't seem. 9 A: Well, it's not so much a code name -- 10 Q: I might have broken that code for -- 11 A: It's not so much a code name. It's 12 just -- it's just a way of identifying because normally 13 when you get into something like this, you have a lot of 14 people becoming involved, so you call it a name, so 15 everybody understands that's what you're there about. 16 Q: Yes. But this could have been called 17 Project Ipperwash, but it wouldn't have been called that 18 because you wouldn't want a casual person who heard about 19 it to know that you were dealing with that issue, right? 20 A: I -- I don't -- I really didn't give 21 it a whole lot of thought, to be honest with you. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: I didn't -- I didn't make the name. 24 Q: You didn't make the name? 25 A: No, I didn't make the name.
1881 Q: Do you know who did? 2 A: I thought it was John Carson, but -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- I stand to be corrected. But 5 that's what I thought. 6 Q: Now, we've had evidence that there 7 was a Military operation -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- related to this -- to these issues 10 and to those people -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- who at the same time or preceding 13 -- shortly preceding this, called Operation Maple. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- My Friend goes 15 a little bit too far. We've heard evidence that there -- 16 there was a -- an operation -- the Army had an Operation 17 Maple in relation to the Army Camp. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I didn't mean 19 to say anything other -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You hadn't 21 finished your question. Go ahead. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: But that, yes. So, as -- 25 A: That's why I understood.
1891 Q: Mr. Millar said that was your 2 understanding and all of our understanding that there was 3 such an Operation Maple, right? 4 A: Well, that was my understanding as of 5 this summer when I was watching the Inquiry and -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- and Deputy Commissioner Carson and 8 I don't know which lawyer -- 9 Q: So -- 10 A: -- was talked to him about it. 11 Q: But is it your evidence that you were 12 unaware in the, say, summer of 1995 that the Military had 13 any plan whatsoever, under whatever name? 14 A: Yeah, that's -- yes. 15 Q: I see. And so it's your evidence 16 that as far as you can tell, it's just a total 17 coincidence the name Operation Maple by the Military and 18 Project Maple by the OPP? 19 A: I hadn't -- yes, I would agree with 20 you. 21 Q: But wouldn't you agree that would be 22 a rather remarkable coincidence, given the way you've 23 told us you select names for projects? 24 A: I can tell you I have no idea how 25 that happened and the first time I heard about, and I'm
1901 going to -- Operation Maple with the -- was here at the 2 Inquiry when I listened -- watched it on -- on the net. 3 Q: But evidently, Operation Maple we 4 gather, preceded Project Maple. 5 A: I don't know, sir. 6 Q: Oh, isn't it a rather remarkable 7 coincidence that Project Maple was called Project Maple 8 out of all the names that could have been chosen instead 9 of -- 10 A: I -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 12 Sandler...? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- something else? 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: I think My Friend's 15 exhausted what this Witness -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I -- 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- knows about. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- with respect -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 22 coincidence. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I haven't quite 24 exhausted -- I was about to exhaust it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
1911 MR. MARK SANDLER: Well, I'm exhausted. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 3 going to exhaust it now, right? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: If Mr. Millar -- 5 Mr. Sandler would go take a nap then I could exhaust it. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: The property is so small that it 9 suggests there must have been some connections there. 10 A: Well, I, you know, I can't help you 11 with that, sir. I can -- the only thing I can tell you 12 is I had no idea that the Department of Defence had a 13 project or operation that was similarly named until I 14 heard it at the Inquiry. 15 Q: Okay. Turning to a different matter, 16 would you please look at Tab 2 of the Commission binder 17 which is Exhibit P-1088 in these proceedings, and is 18 Inquiry Document 2001523. 19 And this is evidently a fax transmission 20 from you to Inspector Carson on 20 July, 1993; is that 21 correct, sir? 22 Do you have that in front of you? 23 A: Yes, I have that in front of me. 24 Q: Now, if you turn to the content of 25 the fax, it's headed, Suggested Terms of Release.
1921 A: And -- and just to be clear, sir, 2 this -- I didn't send this -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- because that's not my writing, 5 that's -- it says at the bottom, Thanks, Andrea and I'm - 6 - I'm jump -- I think that's the court officer at Sarnia 7 Courthouse at the time doing this, no doubt, for me. 8 Q: For you? 9 A: For me, yes. 10 Q: Under your -- 11 A: But I didn't send it. 12 Q: No. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: So it was -- you -- you made a 15 request of the court officer. 16 A: It appears so because my name's -- 17 it's from me. 18 Q: Yes. So you requested that she send 19 this document to Inspector Lacroix -- 20 A: Looks like it, yes. 21 Q: -- and evidently she did do so. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the document has on it, Suggested 24 Terms of Release -- 25 A: Right.
1931 Q: -- re. George, George, and 2 Kewageshig perhaps -- 3 A: I would agree. 4 Q: -- is how you would pronounce it. 5 A: Yeah, something like that. 6 Q: And this was in regard to the arrest 7 of Clifford George and others for the toll booth 8 operation we might say; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And these were suggested terms of 11 release suggested by you? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Suggested by whom? 14 A: I think what's going on here is, and 15 I can only -- this is my best understanding of this 16 document is that Andrea who's the court officer, is a 17 police officer now retired, sent this. 18 And I suspect what's happening is John 19 wanted the conditions of release sent to him so he'd know 20 what they were and I -- and I think that's what's 21 happened. I've -- I've told Andrea when we get the 22 conditions, fax them off to -- to Inspector Carson. 23 So I think that's what's happening here. 24 Q: Sorry, sir, is this after Clifford 25 George and others were already released you're telling us
1941 or are these -- 2 A: No, I -- I think -- see it says here 3 these are Allison Shank's (phonetic) idea and that's -- 4 that was the Assistant Crown dealing with this. So I 5 think what's happening here is that John Carson wanted to 6 know what the anticipated conditions were so I think 7 what's happened is Andrea, the officer, has obtained 8 those from the Assistant Crown and sent them to John 9 Carson. And I've just instructed her to do that so she's 10 put my name at the top of that. 11 Q: Now, sir, is it not the case 12 invariably when there's an arrest at least for a non very 13 major crime that the officers making the arrest 14 invariably include in the package that they submit to the 15 Crown suggested terms of release; is that not true? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: The officers make suggestions as to 18 what they think the terms should be. 19 A: Yes, I'm sure sometimes, yeah. Yeah. 20 Sure. 21 Q: But almost invariably isn't that so? 22 A: Sometimes they do, yes. I can just 23 tell you about my experience, but I don't disagree with 24 that. 25 Q: Sorry, you don't --
1951 A: I don't -- I do not disagree with 2 your presumption, no. 3 Q: You don't disagree? 4 A: No. No. 5 Q: Virtually invariably, to my 6 experience, wouldn't you agree that that's the same with 7 respect to yours, sir? 8 The officers in charge -- the officer in 9 charge of the arrest or some officer connected with the 10 arrest as part of the package that gets sent into the 11 Crown as what the officer suggests should be the terms of 12 release? 13 A: No, not -- no. I wouldn't say it 14 invariably. I would say that there are times when that 15 takes place. I can just speak to mine. 16 I mean if a person is arrested and they're 17 going to be held for a bail hearing and a Crown takes -- 18 takes charge of it it no longer becomes the officers' in 19 charge -- the officer in charge's responsibility vis-a- 20 vis a release, it becomes the Crown's responsibility. 21 So certainly there's a discussion 22 invariably between the officer and the Crown with respect 23 to what the officer's concerns are, but it -- eventually 24 it becomes the Crown's call or the assistant Crown's call 25 as to what those conditions are going to be --
1961 Q: Yes. 2 A: Right? 3 Q: But isn't it generally part of the 4 paperwork turned over by the officer to the Crown that 5 there are suggested terms of release suggested by the 6 officer? 7 A: No, I would -- 8 Q: No? 9 A: -- say no. 10 Q: You say that's not generally so? 11 A: That's -- 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: That's right. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Mr. 15 Rosenthal, just to be fair, you said "invariably," and he 16 said sometimes. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, but now I say 18 generally. Do you agree it's generally so? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 20 don't want to go over -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Which is weaker 22 than invariably. 23 THE WITNESS: I would say when -- I can 24 just tell you about my personal experience, sir. 25
1971 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Yes, in your personal experience. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 4 mean for us to go back over it. I mean, I think you've 5 covered this. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with 7 respect -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 9 did, you were moving on. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- sir, I do want 11 this to be clear. 12 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Well, in this particular case, sir, 16 did any of the OPP officers make any suggestions to the 17 Crown Attorney, in any form, orally or in writing, as to 18 what some of these suggested terms of release might be? 19 A: I don't recall. I can tell you that 20 in my notebook on this date I make a mention that, I 21 think, and it's somewhere in here, that I was having a 22 discussion with the Assistant Crown and I disagreed with 23 what her terms were. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I think that's in my notebook, and we
1981 can go to that -- 2 Q: Yes, perhaps we should. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Maybe on July 20th, 1993, page 9. 7 A: Yes, I have it. 8 Q: July 20th note, sir. 9 A: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is 11 that at? 12 THE WITNESS: Page 9. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9? 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Of July -- 15 THE WITNESS: Tab 1 -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- 20th of 1993. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: So perhaps if you locate that, sir, 20 you could then tell the rest of us, all right? I seem to 21 have located it. 22 A: Yes, as have I. I have, too. 23 Q: It's in the -- in the first tab, 24 right? 25 A: Right.
1991 Q: At page 9 thereof, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And you write there: 7 "Disagreement..." 8 Perhaps you could read it. 9 A: Sure. 10 Q: Just go ahead. 11 A: "Discussion with Assistant Crown, 12 Alison Shank, regarding show of cause 13 hearing on three (3) Natives arrested 14 on Saturday, 17 July '93 for mischief. 15 Disagreement between Assistant Crown 16 and myself regarding the conditions for 17 the three (3) accused parties. 18 Writer's concern was that conditions 19 were not defined clearly enough to keep 20 three (3) parties away from future acts 21 of stopping vehicles and exacting toll 22 money. Crown advised that it was her 23 position that if they were anywhere 24 near Matheson Drive and County Road 3, 25 when tolls were taken again, [I think
2001 that says] by other Natives, these 2 individuals would be in violation of 3 their recog. and could be arrested." 4 And I think that's the end of it with 5 regards to my notes. 6 Q: So you don't have the specific 7 details -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- of the disagreement in your notes, 10 right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: But isn't it fair to say, at least 13 the following, that you wanted more stringent conditions 14 than the Crown wanted? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No? 17 A: I would say -- I would say what my 18 position was, that I wanted con -- I wanted conditions 19 that would be specific -- specific enough so that we 20 wouldn't have a reoccurrence of the offence; not 21 stringent, but more detailed, I think is what it's -- I'm 22 alluding to. That's what it -- that's what I take that 23 to mean. I want them clearly -- it's right here: 24 "Not defined clearly enough with 25 regards to keeping the three (3)
2011 parties away from further acts of 2 stopping vehicles and exacting toll 3 money." 4 So it was with the -- the specific -- the 5 terms being specific enough that we could deal with a 6 repetition of the offence. 7 Q: Yes. And now turning back then to 8 Tab 2 of -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- the Commissioner's book of 11 documents, Exhibit P-1088 -- 12 A: Tab 2? 13 Q: -- the suggested terms of release. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Among the conditions you wanted were, 16 number 1, right? To remain absolutely outside the 17 perimeters of Ipperwash Provincial Park and to refrain 18 from any action that stops, and so on, right? 19 A: Well, I can't tell you that, sir, for 20 sure. I mean, I don't know what comes first, the -- you 21 know, it's a matter of what comes first, the chicken or 22 the egg. 23 I don't know if I talked to her and then 24 these were done or, I mean, I -- I'm at a loss -- 25 Q: That's the kind of --
2021 A: -- to -- 2 Q: That's the kind of specific 3 prohibition that you wanted to remain absolutely outside 4 of the perimeters of Ipperwash Provincial Park, right? 5 A: Well, I don't know so much if it was 6 what I wanted. I know it went to Carson. I mean, the e- 7 mail -- 8 Q: Well -- 9 A: -- says it's going to John and it's 10 from Andrea -- 11 Q: I see. 12 A: -- it's not by me. But I don't take 13 any -- I don't take exception to the -- the conditions, 14 if that's helpful. 15 Q: So I -- a couple of things about your 16 answering that. You said you don't know that it's what 17 you wanted and you mention John; John was John Carson of 18 course. 19 A: Yes. Yes. 20 Q: And so when you were having 21 discussions with the Crown it was not just your personal 22 opinion as what the condition should be but you were 23 acting on behalf of Inspector Carson. Is that -- 24 A: No, I would dis -- no. I'm sure 25 that's my -- my personal opinion are reflective of what
2031 are in my notes. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Okay. I can only -- that's -- that - 4 - I'm sure that's my opinion. What I'm attempting to 5 make clear is that I've had a discussion with the 6 Assistant Crown in regards to these release conditions. 7 But I don't know if this conversation 8 takes place and then the e-mail goes, I don't know what - 9 - in what order that takes place. And in any event, when 10 this document goes, this is not my handwriting, I'm not 11 the author of this fax. 12 I'm sure what's gone on is, once this 13 Assistant Crown has decided what the conditions were, 14 Inspector Carson wanted to know what this Assistant Crown 15 was going to agree to release these individuals on. 16 And she appears to have provided them with 17 the courtesy of having them faxed to him prior to this 18 taking place. 19 Q: Yes, sir. Thank you. We're under 20 some time constraints, and I'm under some time 21 constraints -- 22 A: I -- 23 Q: I'm sorry. So I just would 24 respectfully request that you just answer my question. 25 You'll have an opportunity to say whatever you want, I
2041 don't want to cut you off. 2 A: I thought I was. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: With respect to the Condition Number 7 2 to remain absolutely off Matheson Drive, would you 8 agree that that was the kind of specific condition that 9 you were asking the Crown Attorney to request that the 10 Justice of the Peace impose upon release? 11 A: I think I've -- you know, sir, I 12 think I've answered that question. I don't take issue 13 with any of these conditions. I don't know if I -- 14 Q: Was that part of what you were 15 requesting, sir, in your discussions with the Crown? 16 A: I don't recall. I don't recall. 17 Q: You don't recall, okay. Now, in any 18 event, you told us that Mr. Clifford George and others 19 remained in custody several days because they would not 20 agree to the conditions that were to be imposed. 21 Is that correct? 22 A: That's my recollection, sir, yes. 23 Q: Right. Now, over the summer of 1995 24 we've had various bits of evidence as to the extent that 25 the OPP, generally, was aware of the possibility that the
2051 Stoney Point people would move into Ipperwash Park on or 2 that Labour Day. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And you certainly had some 5 indications that was a serious possibility, right? 6 A: I would agree with you, yes, sir. 7 Q: And in anticipation of that 8 possibility you took certain measures to try to avoid it, 9 if possible. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And, in particular, you -- you 12 meaning the OPP -- 13 A: The OPP, I understand. 14 Q: -- and you were one of the high 15 ranking persons involved in doing it, considered how the 16 MNR employees might help you be vigilant, to some extent, 17 to give you some information and perhaps protect against 18 such a takeover. 19 Is that not correct? 20 A: To specifically -- 21 Q: Yes, well, perhaps I will give you a 22 specific. So now I have a document, there are going to 23 be several documents here, sir, that I would like to have 24 you give to the Commissioner and to the witness. Thank 25 you. And to Mr. Millar, and Mr. McNab.
2061 And the first of those is from Exhibit P- 2 1051 to these proceedings. It's Tab 23 thereof and this 3 is a memorandum dated August 28th, 1995. It's says: 4 "Memorandum to all Park Wardens. 5 Subject: Procedures dealing with 6 First Nations people." 7 So first, I should like us to note the 8 date, August 28, 1995, as Labour Day was approaching. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And the first paragraph of this 11 document is entitled, "First Nations person in 12 contravention of the law," and reads as follows: 13 "Park Wardens are to be the eyes and 14 ears for the OPP when a First Nations 15 person has contravened the law. 16 Park Wardens shall contact the OPP 17 immediately and advise the officers who 18 are dispatched, what offences can be 19 charged and direct the OPP constables 20 to lay the charges." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did you read that, sir? 23 A: I read that. 24 Q: Now we understand from the 25 documentary evidence that's in Exhibit P-1051 and P-1052,
2071 that this document -- 2 A: P-105 -- pardon me, sir, what's P- 3 1052? Is that page 2 of this document? 4 Q: No, no. They're each large exhibits 5 about subsequent discipline. 6 A: Oh, okay. 7 Q: P-1051 and P-1052 are together what 8 I'll call the discipline files for various other purposes 9 in this proceeding -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- but I'm not concerned with -- 12 A: But I have P-1051. That's -- 13 Q: I'm sorry sir? 14 A: The only one I need to concern myself 15 with is 1051? 16 Q: Just -- I'm going to give you several 17 documents -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- and you only need to concern 20 yourself with the actual document. I'm not asking you 21 about other aspects of it that aren't -- 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: -- related to the other part of the 24 exhibit. 25 So -- but I -- I just wanted to inform you
2081 that the rest of the exhibit suggests that this document 2 was designed by, I forget his rank, Bouwman. What's his 3 rank? 4 A: Staff Sergeant. 5 Q: Staff Sergeant Bouwman in conjunction 6 with some MNR employees. 7 A: If you say so. 8 Q: Okay. Now -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 10 Jones? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 12 don't believe that there's anything in that document that 13 refers to Bouwman designing this at all. I don't think 14 that's accurate. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 there was some evidence, I don't remember exactly what it 17 was. Does anybody remember what it was? 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There certainly is. 19 I'll point there if necessary, Mr. -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon me? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There certainly is 22 such evidence. I'll point to it if necessary. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's 24 nothing in the document. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There was some
2091 evidence that Mr. Bouwman may have had, I believe, some 2 input into it. I'm not certain that -- and I can't -- I 3 presume My Friend has the reference, and he does, so we 4 can see what Mr. Bouwman said in his statement. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, let's -- let's 6 deal with this right away then. 7 And I am very cognizant of time, Mr. 8 Commissioner, I'm trying to go as quickly as possible but 9 I have a number of interruptions. 10 Sir? Excuse me, sir? Sorry. Could you 11 please give one (1) to the Commissioner and one (1) to 12 the Witness? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What are you 14 giving us now, Mr. -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This is going to 16 prove the truth of what I said. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is 18 this, an excerpt from a transcript? Is this an excerpt? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: So what I've now handed you, sir, is 24 Exhibit -- a part -- another part of Exhibit P-1051. 25 This is Tab 39 thereof and this is a statement from Staff
2101 Sergeant Bouwman. And if you would turn to the third 2 part -- the third page of that document, I don't believe 3 the pages are numbered but if you count -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- three (3) pages in you'll read in 6 the middle of that page: 7 "Cloud also talked about a policy that 8 was set this -- set this summer by 9 [blanked out] and myself --" 10 A: Cloud -- 11 Q: "-- in dealing with Native people 12 that entered Ipperwash Park illegally." 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And the policy is the document that I 15 told you. So may I continue, Mr. Commissioner? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we believe it's 17 the policy that he's referring to. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 20 Q: Well, we will have evidence from 21 Staff Sergeant Bouwman, but let's assume that this is the 22 policy being referred to, okay, sir? 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Now, I would suggest to you that 25 Staff Sergeant Bouwman could not, on his own hook, just
2111 go off as a staff sergeant and design a policy like this, 2 in conjunction with MNR employees, without the approval 3 of the Incident Commander, is that not true? 4 A: Well, you're asking me about -- we're 5 assuming that he wrote this and based -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- on that assumption could he do a, 8 b, and c, right -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- is that what you're asking me? 11 Q: Yes, sir. Could he do a policy like 12 this without -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 14 why you're asking that -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- the approval of 16 the Incident Commander? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 18 why you're asking that of this Witness. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, sir -- 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. I mean, with -- 21 with all due respect, he hasn't even asked him whether he 22 knows about this policy yet at all. 23 And how is he supposed to answer whether 24 Staff Sergeant Bouwman would or wouldn't have done it or 25 could or wouldn't have done it --
2121 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- without the 3 Incident Commander -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 5 why you're asking it -- 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: It's a very unfair 7 question to put to him. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 9 fair question. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With great respect, 11 Mr. Commissioner, this person was very involved in all 12 these events as a -- as second in command at some point 13 and high up at other points, and this is a policy 14 governing the relationship and dealing with the issue 15 that he was concerned about over that summer, as to 16 whether or not -- as to how to prevent a possible 17 takeover of the Park. 18 And I, frankly, have not heard any 19 reasonable objection to my question, so I don't 20 understand the -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- objection. If 23 he doesn't know, he'll tell us he doesn't know. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He surely knows
2131 policies. He knows whether a staff sergeant can go off 2 and start negotiating with MNR about a policy like this 3 involving the OPP and report to the OPP without at least 4 apprising the Incident Commander. Surely he knows that. 5 If he doesn't know, he'll tell us. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if you 7 don't know the answer just say you don't know and that'll 8 be -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: If you don't -- you 10 don't know the answer to that, sir? 11 THE WITNESS: I don't. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 14 Q: You don't know if a Staff Sergeant 15 can do that? 16 A: I don't know if a Staff Sergeant 17 could do that, that's right. 18 Q: On his own hook, okay. 19 A: On -- at that -- yeah, that's right. 20 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, once he has 21 done it, would he be at least duty bound to inform the 22 incident commander about it, sir? 23 A: Staff Sergeant Bouwman was the 24 Detachment Commander of that area, and as the Detachment 25 Commander, he would be -- he would deal with incidents or
2141 occurrences or policies as he deemed fit. 2 So whether or not Bouwman and, you know, 3 the short answer is you're going to have to ask Bouwman, 4 because whether or not he -- 5 Q: I shall indeed, sir. 6 A: Yes, I appreciate that. Is -- but 7 whether or not he de -- he deemed this to be part of the 8 plan with regards to Ipperwash such that he felt the need 9 to contact and notify Carson, would be something that 10 would be in the mind of Staff Sergeant Bouwman. 11 Q: Sir, were you aware of this policy -- 12 A: No, I was not. 13 Q: -- before I handed it to you? 14 A: Absolutely not. This is the first 15 time I -- 16 Q: Not at all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Sorry, I'm going to have you up on 23 your feet a couple of times in the next little while, 24 sir. One for the Commissioner, one for the Witness, one 25 for Mr. Millar, one for Mr. Sandler.
2151 A: Thank you. 2 Q: Sir, and the document I've just 3 handed you is an extract from the other Volume of the 4 files, Exhibit P-1052. It's Tab 71 of that document. 5 It's headed "Mark Wright," you've heard of him? 6 A: I have. 7 Q: And it purports to be a report about 8 an interview conducted with you on 3rd November, 1995 and 9 reads: 10 "He stated that he had been shown mugs 11 with arrows and thought they were okay. 12 He later spoke to the same guys and he 13 was told that Inspector [blacked out] 14 had discouraged the design and they 15 were wondering what to do. 16 Wright offered to buy one and did so." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Now, is that an accurate report of 19 that interview, sir? 20 A: No. 21 Q: It's not? I see. 22 A: No. 23 Q: What was the true statement -- 24 A: Well -- 25 Q: -- that you gave to that person, sir?
2161 A: My recollection is, is that I don't 2 recall the telephone interview but I certainly purchased 3 a mug with an arrow in it, that's correct. 4 And at some time after the fact I learned 5 that the -- the mugs with the arrows and everything else 6 was inappropriate. 7 Q: You learned after it was 8 inappropriate? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: You didn't learn that upon seeing it? 11 A: No, I -- that was -- no. 12 Q: You looked at it and thought it was 13 appropriate and only were told afterward it was 14 inappropriate. 15 A: Yes. I'm embarrassed to say that 16 that's true. 17 Q: And so this is correct, that you'd 18 been shown the mugs with arrows and thought they were 19 okay at first -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- right? 22 A: That's right, that's right. What I 23 take -- what -- I don't have a problem with that, sir. 24 What -- what -- I think the next line I have a problem 25 with is that I bought the mug and then sometime after I
2171 was told that the mugs -- the design of the mugs were 2 discouraged and/or inappropriate. 3 Q: I see. 4 A: I hope -- 5 Q: In other words -- 6 A: -- I'm being -- 7 Q: -- you say -- 8 A: Am I making myself clear? I don't 9 know if I am or not. 10 Q: Well, so you're objecting to the next 11 to last sentence: 12 "He later spoke to the same guys and he 13 was told that Inspector [blank] had 14 discouraged the design and they were 15 wondering what to do." 16 Right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Now, sir, are you told -- telling us 19 that you only found out they were inappropriate after? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: But is it not consistent with that, 22 that in the process you were told that Inspector so-and- 23 so had discouraged the design, but that they, at that 24 point, had been discouraged by Inspector so-and-so, they 25 were wondering what to do, and then you offered to buy
2181 one? 2 A: No. No. I -- perhaps I can help you 3 with -- I re -- I recall them coming to me and offering 4 to -- to sell me one of those mugs and I did. And I 5 didn't give it a whole lot of thought. And some time 6 later there were complaints with respect to the mugs and 7 the t-shirts and, you know, that became aware to everyone 8 there about the -- about these complaints. 9 Q: But isn't it possible that this is an 10 accurate report that you told the interviewer at the 11 time -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- that you had been aware that 14 Inspector so-and-so didn't like the design, but, 15 nonetheless, you thought it was okay? 16 A: No, that's not my recollection, sir. 17 Q: I see, okay. 18 Once again, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: The next document I've given you, 23 sir, is Tab 17 from Exhibit P -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: P-1051, and that's a longer document.
2191 If you could please turn to page 15, the page number's 2 are written on the top. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And if you look at -- well, first, 5 from the top the heading of that page is "t-shirts." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And then in the last paragraph on 8 that page, not completely on the page but beginning on 9 that page, it begins on October 28: 10 "I interviewed Constable [blank] --" 11 A: Right. 12 Q: "-- with respect to the production of 13 the t-shirts." 14 And in his statement he indicated he, in 15 fact, was responsible for their existence. He indicated 16 that: 17 "He very carefully attempted a design 18 that would not offend anyone. He 19 wanted to make a memento as is 20 customary in major events so that 21 officers would have a keepsake." 22 And then I should like to draw your 23 attention particularly to the next sentence, sir, and the 24 one following on the next page. 25 A: Right.
2201 Q: "After deciding on a couple of 2 tasteful logos he decided to check with 3 certain individuals, whose opinion he 4 thought would be helpful, so as not to 5 offend anyone." 6 And then continuing on page 16: 7 "He spoke with Constable [blank], an 8 OPP officer and a First Nations person, 9 as well as Acting Detective Staff 10 Sergeant Mark Wright, Chatham DHQ, who 11 were two (2) people he knew had close 12 ties to the Native community. 13 As a result he decided upon the design 14 because he felt it was tasteful, non- 15 offensive and projected a positive 16 image." 17 Now, sir, is that an accurate report of 18 your interaction with respect to the t-shirts? 19 A: Yes, sir, it is. 20 Q: Sorry? 21 A: It is. 22 Q: It is, thank you. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then continuing: 25 "Blank was shown two (2) designs, one
2211 with an arrow, one with a feather. He 2 stated that the one with the arrow was 3 offensive but he was not personally 4 offended by the feather." 5 I gather, sir, you were not offended by 6 either one; is that correct? 7 A: No. That -- that's -- that's not 8 me -- 9 Q: No, no. I appreciate that, sir -- 10 A: -- showing that -- 11 Q: But I'm not asking you, I gather that 12 you were not offended by either, the one with the arrow 13 or the one with the feather; is that correct? 14 A: No. My recollection of that is that 15 I deferred to the OPP First Nations officer that was 16 there. This -- this happened, as I recall, all at once. 17 And my -- I recall -- my recollection is 18 the OPP First Nations officer said that something along 19 this line about the one with an arrow -- he stated the 20 one with the arrow was offensive but he was not 21 personally offended by the feather. 22 And so having said that, the one with the 23 feather. But to be quite honest with you, sir, I -- I 24 was -- I've seen this prior to coming here and my 25 recollection was that the feather was the offensive one,
2221 so. 2 Q: I see. Well, perhaps we can get a 3 little more insight to this by looking at another 4 document. This is Tab 28 to Exhibit P-1051 which is a 5 statement from Provincial Constable [blank]. That person 6 seems to come up a lot in these proceedings. 7 If you turn to page 2 -- well beginning at 8 the very bottom of page 1, perhaps: 9 "I wanted to [and then continuing on 10 page 2] make the t-shirts with a 11 tasteful logo. After deciding on a 12 couple of potential logos I wanted to 13 check with certain individuals who I 14 felt that their opinion would be 15 helpful in establishing that. 16 I spoke to [blank] and Mark Wright; two 17 (2) people who I knew had close ties to 18 the Native community and to the 19 situation at hand. 20 Upon their advice, I chose a logo that 21 they felt was tasteful, not offensive 22 and projected a positive image." 23 Now, sir, did you give advice as to the 24 logo to choose? 25 A: Well, like I said, I deferred to the
2231 OPP First Nation's officer, he picked the -- the one that 2 was eventually -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- and I -- and I -- and I concurred. 5 I mean, I'm not -- I'm not trying to limit my involvement 6 in this. I'm certainly in agreement with your position, 7 I think it's your position that this officer took it as 8 that I -- I was acceptable of that logo. I take no -- I 9 -- I would agree with you about that. 10 Q: Now, sir, this interview was reported 11 as including at the bottom of page 2, and I should like 12 to ask if you have any information that would shed light, 13 one (1) way or the other, on the truth of that. 14 "While there I was approached by 15 various people including John Carson. 16 The reaction of Command staff was 17 extremely positive. I can't quote 18 [blank] but his comment was that the 19 shirt was well received by all sides 20 and the feather was a nice touch. And 21 on more than one (1) occasion he 22 commended me for my efforts and that it 23 was good for esprit-d-corps. These 24 comments were later reconfirmed when I 25 returned home to [blank] and received a
2241 phone call from Inspector [blank]." 2 Now, sir, were you aware that there was a 3 general agreement among the Command staff that this was 4 all fine, it was extremely positive? 5 A: I guess I would say I -- I had that 6 feeling that that was because I knew some of the Command 7 staff had purchased the T-shirts so -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- you know, I think one (1) falls in 10 line with the other. 11 Q: Thank you. Now, sir, if you could 12 please turn to Tab 14 of the Commission documents? 13 A: Tab 14? 14 Q: Yes, of the first of the big binders. 15 A: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit P- 17 421, is that the one you're referring to? 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, sir? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit P- 20 421? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir, I 22 should have said that. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you. 25
2251 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Exhibit P-421, Inquiry Document 3 3000574. Now, if you could turn, please, to the last 4 page -- I should first note from the first page, this was 5 evidently the report of a meeting from September 1st, 6 1995; is that correct? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: So, again, that's in anticipation of 9 people coming into the Park? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And then at the last page, two-thirds 12 (2/3's) of the way down, it says: 13 "MARK: When people come into the Park 14 we will see them and we will -- and 15 we'll arrest them." 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And that is your comment, right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And so your intention at that point 20 was -- or your suggestion to this meeting was that we 21 should immediately arrest people who come into the Park, 22 right? 23 A: No, I think that was, sir, as I've 24 testified in my chief, my evidence in-chief, was that 25 this was part of the plan that, in the event a small
2261 number of individuals were to come into the Park, after 2 the Park had been closed, that they would be told that 3 they were trespassing and if they weren't -- if they 4 didn't leave then they would be arrested if it was a 5 small number. If it was a large number then we would go 6 to the cohabitation part of the plan. 7 So this was the -- this was the -- the 8 discussion in regards to the -- the plan that we put 9 together that ultimately was Maple. 10 Q: I would suggest to you, sir, that 11 either the person taking the notes of this meeting was 12 quite incompetent in doing so, or your recollection is 13 entirely incorrect, because what is recorded for you 14 there is not what you just told us. 15 A: Well, I think it is. 16 Q: You think it is? 17 A: I think -- I think that's exactly -- 18 Q: That under some circumstances we 19 might arrest them, as opposed to it says: 20 "When people come into the Park --" 21 A: Right. 22 Q: "-- we will see them and we'll arrest 23 them." 24 A: Well, sir, I think you have to take 25 those comments in the context of -- of what it is and
2271 that's the planning of Project Maple. And if you look at 2 those comments and then you look at Project Maple the 3 final -- the final draft is that's exactly what the plan 4 was. 5 If there were a few number of -- a 6 relatively small number of people that were going to come 7 in and the Park was closed they were going to be told 8 that they had to leave, and if they didn't leave they 9 were going to be arrested under the Trespass to Property 10 Act. 11 Q: Yes, sir, but -- 12 A: So that -- that is in -- I mean, 13 clearly, one doesn't -- one has to have grounds for 14 arrest in order to effect an arrest. So the mere -- you 15 just can't arrest people willy nilly for walking into a 16 Park. 17 Q: Yes, the grounds presumably would 18 have been trespassing, right? 19 A: Right. Once -- first you'd have to - 20 - you'd have to establish (a) the -- the place was closed 21 and (b) that they were trespassing. Once they failed to 22 do that then you would be in a position to arrest. 23 Q: Yes. And that would be independent 24 if there two (2) of them or ten (10) of them or a hundred 25 (100) of them, right?
2281 A: No, no, I disagree with you. Well, 2 yeah, sure. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: I mean, ultimate -- I guess from an 5 academic point of view, I guess you could arrest a 6 hundred (100) of them if they were committing that 7 offence but our position was more practical than that, in 8 that if there were four (4) or six (6) or whatever and we 9 would have made that call depending on who they were or 10 what the circumstances were, we were going to arrest. 11 If there was a larger number, we were 12 going to cohabitate with them inside the Park, put people 13 around the perimeter in an attempt to discourage people 14 from coming in. 15 Q: That's what Project Maple says -- 16 A: Right. 17 A: -- as we can read ten (10) years 18 later, but I'm putting it to you, sir, that in fact this 19 is an accurate recording of what you said back in 1995 20 and you wanted to arrest people who came to the Park, 21 independent of any of the considerations in Project 22 Maple? 23 A: No, that's -- no. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: I disagree with you.
2291 Q: Thank you. Okay, if we could please 2 turn to Tab 18 -- 3 A: 18? 4 Q: 18. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Which is the scribe notes. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Which is Exhibit P-426, well, under 9 various Inquiry document numbers, Mr. Commissioner; I 10 don't dare to propose one. 11 If we could turn to -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, the one that's 13 actually the official scribe note number, Inquiry 14 document number, is 1002419; that is the marked copy of 15 Exhibit P-426. that's the one, at least Commission 16 Counsel have been using throughout. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I see. Well, okay, 18 that was the one I was going to propose but I was afraid 19 to do so. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: In any event, if you could turn, 23 please, to page 25 of that document. 24 A: 25, sir? 25 Q: Yes.
2301 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, sir, I'm there. 4 Q: This is a -- from September 5th 5 meeting at 9:25 in the morning, evidently. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: As you can see on the previous page, 8 24; is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, we have the notation and the 11 scribe at page 25, towards the top: 12 "Advised that Staff Sergeant Lacroix 13 had been in contact with Marcel 14 Beaubien, local Member of Parliament. 15 He's updating the Premier on the 16 situation." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: You became aware of that at a -- at 19 this meeting or around that time; is that correct? 20 A: Yeah, right. 21 Q: Now, going down -- skipping a couple 22 of paragraphs, a third of the way down the page: 23 "Stan Korosec advises that some of the 24 occupants put on a show last night at 25 21 Highway, shooting moons at officers.
2311 Suggested that another two (2) man car 2 be posted at this location." 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Do you recall that being discussed, 5 sir? 6 A: I don't recall that being discussed, 7 no. I don't -- no, I don't recall that. 8 Q: Why would somebody mooning officers 9 require another police car? 10 A: I don't know. I don't recall that 11 being discussed and I think there's -- you know, I don't 12 know why they put another car down there, and I don't -- 13 I suspect it's not because the officers were mooned. 14 Q: Now, this is on September 5th at 9:25 15 in the morning and continuing for several minutes at 16 least, presumably. 17 If we turn to page 26 -- 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: It reports: 23 "John Carson [second paragraph]. If 24 you get an opportunity to get in -- to 25 get in, arrest suspects, get in and
2321 then get out with them." 2 A: Right. 3 Q: "Mark Wright advises getting a 4 warrant for Glenn George." 5 A: Right. 6 Q: So at this point, evidently, you and 7 Inspector Carson were ad idem that, if possible, if you 8 can make quick arrests, do so, right? 9 A: Well again, sir, you have to take 10 that statement in the context of the meeting -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And my evidence was and remains the 13 same that we are discussing here the -- the opportunity 14 or a contingency to repopulate the Park, that's what's 15 taking place here. 16 And this is the morning -- 17 Q: To repopulate the Park? 18 A: Yeah. With -- with our officers. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: Because as you recall, on September - 21 - the initial plan of Project Maple was to stay in the 22 Park. We left because of the -- of the -- what happened 23 with Korosec at the -- at the bridge, to paraphrase. I'm 24 sure we -- you understand what I'm talking about and we - 25 - we left the Park.
2331 The next morning, we're talking about 2 repopulating the Park with officers, putting officers 3 back into the Park. 4 There's that contingency planning going on 5 and if you read the entire document here, for this 6 meeting, you'll see that Carson is talking about, Well, 7 if -- if we're going to do that and we go in there and 8 there are people because we have warrants for individuals 9 who have committed criminal offences on officers the 10 night before, that we would arrest those -- those 11 individuals who are responsible for those offences the 12 previous evening, if in fact that was going to take 13 place. 14 And of course that -- that never happens. 15 But that's what that's in relation to. In the -- 16 Q: Sorry? 17 A: No, go ahead, sorry. 18 Q: If you had repopulated the Park as 19 you like to phrase it -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- would you have allowed other First 22 Nations people to -- to join the population? 23 A: Would I have -- 24 Q: What was the plan if you re -- 25 repopulated the Park?
2341 Would you have ensured that there were no 2 First Nations people, other than First Nations officers 3 in the Park? 4 A: Well first of all, it -- it wouldn't 5 be my call. It would be Inspector Carson's call, number 6 one. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I would take direction from him. But 9 my position I guess in 2006 is that, you know, we were 10 going to act -- we weren't going to take any overt act 11 with respect to the people in there without an injunction 12 being issued. 13 So I guess if we were going to repopulate 14 the Park and again, you know, this is peer speculation, 15 but I'm trying to answer your question. 16 If we were going to repopulate the Park 17 and we arrested individuals who -- who we had warrants 18 for and other First Nations people came into the Park, 19 then we would cohabitate with them pursuant to operation 20 -- Project Maple until such time as we got the injunction 21 and Inspector Carson decided whether or not he was going 22 to move vis-a-vis the injunction. 23 Q: Sir, this is 9:25 -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- in the morning of September 5th,
2351 right? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And John Carson said: 4 "If you get an opportunity to get in 5 and arrest suspects..." 6 Right? 7 A: That's what he said. 8 Q: Page 26. He was not saying, After we 9 get an injunction, was he? 10 A: No and I don't think that's what I 11 said. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To be fair, 13 Mr. Rosenthal, this is a scribe note. He's giving you 14 his interpretation of it. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 17 something -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. And I'm 19 exploring that, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. He's 21 given a rather elaborate interpretation. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, which included 23 an injunction somehow -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and I'm pointing
2361 out to him that we're back at 9:25 on September 5th and 2 that what's quoted here is: 3 "If you have an opportunity to get in 4 and arrest suspects..." 5 then an injunction was not on the agenda-- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- at least 8 immediately at that point. 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: With all due respect, 10 he's misconstrued and misinterpreted what the Witness has 11 said. The Witness did not say you'd need an injunction 12 under these circumstances, he said if we repopulate and 13 the opportunity presents to arrest people for whom an 14 arrest -- a warrant already exists, that's what the 15 discussion is about. 16 It's not post injunction at that point. 17 My Friend didn't hear the complete answer. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 19 wants to talk about the injunction a little bit, but 20 that's fine. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We'll look at the 22 record as to exactly what was said. But I don't think 23 there's been any objection to any question I asked and I 24 should like to be allowed to continue. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the
2371 question? 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: So now, sir, do you agree that at 5 9:25 or thereabouts on the morning of September 5th, you 6 were talking about operations that would involve the OPP 7 going into the Park before any injunction was granted or 8 even sought? 9 A: Before an injunction was granted. I 10 -- we were talking about contingency planning to 11 repopulate the Park, yes. 12 Q: Yes. Thank you. 13 A: And if you look, sir, on page 25 at 14 the top it says, and this is the same meeting: 15 "John Carson discussed issue about the 16 injunction, stated that the party -- 17 the injunction is against -- has the 18 option to appear. Doubtful if it will 19 happen today." 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: So that's what I'm talking -- this is 22 all part and parcel of this meeting that we are 23 anticipating an injunction and if we -- but prior to the 24 injunction we're also discussing to repopulate the Park. 25 Are we going to stay with the project
2381 plan? 2 Q: To repopulate prior to an 3 injunction -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- that was the point I wanted to get 6 you to acknowledge and now I'll move on if I may. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: Now, if you look please at page 26 of 11 the scribe notes. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: About the middle of the page there's 14 a paragraph: 15 "John Carson advised that St. John's 16 have provided an ambulance. Bill 17 Dennis (phonetic) advised that the 18 ambulance was on standby. John Carson 19 advised that the St. John's ambulance 20 can be used for twenty-four (24) hour 21 coverage and can be driven by all 22 members. Have it down at the scene." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Do you recall that discussion, sir? 25 A: No, I don't. I don't take issue that
2391 it happened though, but I don't recall it. 2 Q: Do you recall the question of a St. 3 John's ambulance being made available to the OPP? 4 A: Do I -- vaguely, yes, I do. 5 Q: Was there any concern that you recall 6 about using an ambulance as an OPP vehicle in that way? 7 Do you -- 8 A: Me, personally? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: No. 11 Q: You didn't have any personal concern? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you recall anyone expressing a 14 concern, maybe we shouldn't involve an ambulance which is 15 supposed to be for medical purposes in an OPP operation? 16 A: No, I do not recall. 17 Q: Thank you. And then further on page 18 26 there's a paragraph two-thirds (2/3's) of the way 19 down: 20 "JOHN CARSON: Once we get in the Park 21 remember public safety. 22 STAN KOROSEC: Put as many people in 23 the Park as possible." 24 That's talking about the repopulation -- 25 A: Right.
2401 Q: -- as you called it. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And again prior to an injunction -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- is what's anticipated at this 6 point? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Continue please to page 28. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: The third paragraph on that page 13 reads: 14 "John Carson instructs Mark Wright to 15 have a press release prepared with 16 Sergeant Babbitt once warrants have 17 been obtained for the suspects. Mark 18 Wright to touch base with Sergeant 19 Babbitt." 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Do you recall that, sir? 22 A: Vaguely, yes, I do. 23 Q: So the idea was to let the public 24 know that you were going to be arresting some of the 25 people in the Park right?
2411 A: I think to let the public know that 2 we had warrants for the -- for those people, some of 3 those people. 4 Q: I see. So to let them know that some 5 people were under a threat of arrest one might say? 6 A: Well, that they were subject to an 7 arrest warrant. I don't know if that's a threat. 8 Q: They were subject to arrest, yes. 9 A: It's that they were subject to an 10 arrest warrant. 11 Q: Generally in your many years as a 12 police officer is it general to put out a press release 13 about a warrant being issued with respect to a suspect? 14 A: Generally? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: No, but this wasn't generally 17 speaking. 18 Q: Yes, and why did you do it in this 19 case? 20 A: Well, you'd have to ask Inspector 21 Carson, that was his call, sir. 22 Q: And you weren't privy to any 23 discussions about that? 24 A: Well, I just -- I -- I don't remember 25 his exact reasons, it's ten (10) years ago but I mean --
2421 Q: Well, don't give us his exact reasons 2 if you don't remember them. Give us his -- 3 A: I don't. I don't. 4 Q: Give us his general reasons if you 5 remember those. 6 A: I -- I can't do that either. I can 7 give you mine. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. Give us yours. 9 A: I can -- I can give you that it was - 10 - as far as I was concerned it was a way of telling, 11 showing, the general community that we were policing the 12 area as best we could. 13 Q: Yes. And you were aware at this time 14 already, this is well into the summer, you were aware of 15 concerns expressed by certain persons in the general 16 community that you were not doing your job as 17 authoritatively and decisively as you should, correct? 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: You were aware of Marcel Beaubien's 20 concerns to that effect for example? 21 A: No, I wasn't, not -- 22 Q: You weren't aware of his? 23 A: No, the public -- 24 Q: But you were aware of some -- 25 A: -- the public.
2431 Q: -- concerns within some sectors of 2 the public that you weren't properly enforcing the law 3 with respect to the Aboriginal people in the Park right - 4 - sorry, in the Camp even and then in the Park? 5 A: Certainly the Park when the Park took 6 over, yes. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I don't know so much the Camp, sir. 9 I -- I don't recall having a whole lot -- the people 10 there having a whole lot of problem with the -- the 11 takeover or the occupation of CFB Ipperwash but certainly 12 the Park and certainly West Ipperwash, absolutely. 13 Q: Thank you. If you could please turn 14 to your Tab 20 of the Commission documents which is 15 Exhibit P-1098 and is a transcript of a telephone call 16 between you and Inspector Robertson -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- September 5th, 1995, at 10:42 in 19 the morning? 20 A: Pardon me, sir, I'm just -- 21 Q: Sorry, sir? 22 A: -- just trying to catch up here. I 23 thought I had the right one. Tab 19? No. 24 Q: Tab 20. 25
2441 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Okay. I have it. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: Yes, sorry about that. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, this is shortly after the meeting 10 that we just looked at some descriptions of from the 11 scribe notes. 12 A: Right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you called Inspector Robertson 17 rather than the other way around, right -- 18 A: No, I think he's calling me is he 19 not? 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I think he's calling me. 22 Q: I'm sorry. Okay, he's calling you? 23 A: Yeah, I think so. 24 Q: Okay. In any event if you turn to 25 the second page, please.
2451 A: Yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: You informed Inspector Robertson at 6 the top of that page: 7 "MNR, of course, we're acting on behalf 8 of MNR, they're the landlords. We 9 tried to serve them with notice last 10 night that they were trespassing, 11 pursuant to the Trespass to Property 12 Act. They refused notice, but as far 13 as we're concerned they've been 14 notified." 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Now, sir, so very quickly after the 17 occupation you were in touch with MNR and received 18 instructions to represent them as the occupier in asking 19 the persons occupying the Park to leave? 20 A: Pardon me, sir? I don't understand 21 the question. 22 Q: The occupation took place late in the 23 afternoon of September 4. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And you informed Inspector Robertson:
2461 "We tried to serve them with notice 2 last night." 3 So that -- 4 A: Immediately, right. 5 Q: So very shortly after the occupation 6 you -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- received instructions from MNR to 9 act on their behalf as the occupiers of the Park and 10 request that the persons leave, and if they don't leave, 11 arrest them for trespassing, correct? 12 A: Yeah, they -- MNR was the complainant 13 with respect to the property. And Constable George and 14 Mr. Kobayashi attended at the front kiosk of the Park to 15 serve them notice. 16 Q: In the middle of that page you talk 17 about the ministry levels meeting, going to get an 18 injunction. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And then you say: 21 "And our intention is to go back in and 22 take that Park." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: "Now, we just got intelligence now. 25 We had two (2) intelligence guys go
2471 into the Park, like I told you we're 2 going to do, and they're cutting down 3 trees and starting to barricade the 4 front of the Park, and that's, like, 5 fresh right off the wire." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: "Nobody, we, John Carson, me and you 8 know right now about that." 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Now, I -- I wasn't going to suggest 11 it be played, although -- but can you -- can you help us 12 figure out what you're talking about there, sir? 13 A: Yeah, sure I can. This is about Bell 14 is with another officer and I can't -- I think -- I think 15 it's Dyke. Detective Sergeant Bell -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- and I think it's with Dyke, had 18 been tasked by Carson to go see what was going down in 19 the Park, because this is the morning of the 5th, as you 20 recall. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And we didn't know, you know, the 4th 23 happened and then we put up some perimeters. And now 24 it's early morning hours of the 5th and Inspector Carson 25 wants to know what's going on in the Park --
2481 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- because we don't have a helicopter 3 there yet -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: So he tasks those officers to go have 6 a look. And my recollection is they walked along the 7 beach at the Park to look in to see what was going in. 8 And they came back and reported and that -- I took that 9 to mean -- I interpreted that as, in the Park, but 10 they're on the beach and looking into the Park. 11 So this information comes back and I'm 12 relaying it to Robertson because if you take this in 13 context he -- if you look at the start of this, it's, 14 Mark, I'm the -- you know, I'm the -- I'm on the on call 15 guy and what's going on there. 16 So I'm trying to give him a very quick run 17 down of what's taken place, in and around, as it pertains 18 to Ipperwash Provincial Park. 19 Q: Yes. Now, several follow up 20 questions. 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: First off, at the beginning of this 23 paragraph when you say, Our intention is to go back in 24 and take that Park, you -- 25 A: Right.
2491 Q: -- mean you and John Carson; is that 2 correct? 3 A: I mean the OPP. 4 Q: Pardon -- so "our" refers to the OPP? 5 A: Yeah, right. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Pursuant to -- with -- under the 8 authority of an injunction. 9 Q: Well, thank you. Now, so the intent 10 -- "our" refers to OPP? Okay. 11 A: Yeah, that's -- 12 Q: Now, then -- 13 A: -- what I meant it to mean. 14 Q: Yes, thank you. Now, you had two (2) 15 intelligence guys go into the Park, as you've told us. 16 They were dressed in old clothes then, were they, sir? 17 A: Yeah, along the beach. They were 18 walking along the beach. So I mean, technically, I 19 guess, they weren't in the Park, they were along the 20 beach but, I mean, I was -- I was having a conversation 21 with this Inspector and I was giving him information. 22 Q: Yes, but I'm just trying to get 23 certain -- 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: -- information from you now, sir. So
2501 officers sometimes use the expression, 'plain clothes.' 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And they use the expression 'old 4 clothes' in two (2) different ways; am I not correct? 5 A: Yes, sure. 6 Q: And 'plain clothes' means wearing a 7 suit, generally? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And not denying the fact that you're 10 a police officer, right? 11 A: Right, right. 12 Q: Whereas 'old clothes' means trying to 13 look like -- 14 A: Right. 15 Q: -- just another guy walking down the 16 street. 17 A: Agreed. 18 Q: So -- 19 A: This would be old clothes. 20 Q: Yes. So these guys were in old 21 clothes. 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: Trying to look like just a couple of 24 people walking along the beach and then they reported 25 back.
2511 A: Right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: But then nobody -- the last part of 6 that paragraph: 7 "Nobody, we, John Carson, me and you 8 knows right now [and you laugh] about 9 that." 10 Knows that the two (2) guys went down 11 there in old clothes, or knows what? 12 A: Yeah, that just -- this is -- this is 13 brand new inform -- it wasn't meant to be a -- you know, 14 something that was supposed to be kept a secret, it's 15 just that it was brand new information I was relating to 16 him. 17 Again, my intent here was to explain to 18 him what was going on and I was -- if you go to the 19 beginning of this conversation, I'm running down what's 20 happening and right up, you know, to the moment, this is 21 what we know to the moment. 22 And that's what that's all about. It's -- 23 it's -- I think it's more -- 24 Q: It wasn't referring to the intention 25 to go back and take the Park that only you and John and
2521 now -- 2 A: No, no, no, no. 3 Q: -- Inspector Robinson -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- know. 6 A: No. No. If I may be of some help to 7 you, sir, in that, if you look at the top it's, you know, 8 we're going -- we want an injunction because we want a 9 piece of paper because that's what we want, right above 10 that. 11 Absolutely no doubt whatsoever, because 12 I'm talking about certain amount -- and at -- so at 13 eleven o'clock this morning the MNR and all their 14 ministry levels are meeting and they're going to get us 15 an injunction, because that's what we want, we want a 16 piece of paper. 17 So we're not going to -- we are not going 18 to go in there, "in there," meaning the Park, without an 19 injunction. And if we get that piece of paper and I 20 certainly was of the understanding that we were going to 21 get it, then our intention was to go back and take that 22 Park, meaning that those people were in there unlawfully. 23 We were going to return it to their lawful 24 owners, i.e., the Province through the MNR. 25 And that's what I meant when I was
2531 speaking to Inspector Robertson. 2 Q: Now, sir, if you turn, please, to 3 page 4 of 6. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And before I refer you to the 8 specific of the page, at this point you had no idea how 9 long it might take to get an injunction, right? 10 A: No, all I knew is from what Carson 11 said, that it was going to take in excess of twenty (20) 12 -- it wasn't going to happen today. 13 Q: Wasn't going to happen that day, and 14 you didn't know if it was going to be a matter of days or 15 weeks, you -- 16 A: I was very nai -- well, I didn't 17 think it would take weeks. I -- as I've given there, I 18 thought it was much like a search warrant. You prepare 19 a, you know, an information, you go, and either you get 20 it or you don't. 21 I had no idea of the intricacies involved 22 in getting an injunction. 23 Q: As far as you understood at this 24 point, there was no need to act particularly quickly; 25 isn't that fair?
2541 A: In regards to what? 2 Q: To getting people out of the Park? 3 A: I don't understand your question. 4 Q: The situation was controlled. There 5 wasn't any particular danger that you were aware of; 6 there were many officers around, right? 7 Is all that true? 8 A: Yeah, sure. 9 Q: And a day or two (2) later, removing 10 people from the Park wouldn't be a problem, right? 11 A: Well, it wasn't my call. What we 12 were talking about was repopulating the Park. I mean, at 13 this particular point, we're talking about cohabitating 14 in the Park with the occupiers, so -- 15 Q: That's before the injunction. 16 A: Right. And that could have been for, 17 you know -- you're right, it could have been a week. 18 Q: But -- but -- so that was the plan to 19 do as soon as possible, if it was feasible, before an 20 injunction. But then the getting them out of the Park 21 you say was going to wait until after an injunction, 22 right? 23 A: Right. But I was of -- my mind set 24 was that was going to happen. I was of the mind set that 25 this was going to happen quickly.
2551 Q: Including the injunction? 2 A: Yeah. I thought that, like -- 3 because what I get and if you look at the -- the meeting 4 it's, well, it's not likely to happen today. 5 Well, not likely to happen today, I took 6 that to mean as, you know, it potentially might have 7 happened that day, but maybe tomorrow. 8 I didn't think we were going to be there 9 very long. 10 Q: Well, sir, I would put it to you, if 11 you had the idea, and we're looking back ten (10) years 12 later and -- 13 A: Sure. 14 Q: -- people reformulate memories, as 15 you know. 16 A: Right, yeah. 17 Q: Now, if you would had the idea at 18 that time that an injunction was going to come within a 19 couple of days, you wouldn't have bothered talking about 20 repopulating the Park -- 21 A: No, I disagree. 22 Q: You would have just waited for the 23 injunction. 24 A: No, I disagree. 25 Q: Well, why would you bother the more
2561 difficult -- with the more difficult approach of 2 repopulating the Park if there was no immediate danger 3 and an injunction was likely within a couple of days? 4 A: Well, again, you'd have to -- like 5 that -- this was Inspector Carson's incident; he was the 6 man in charge. So, I mean, I guess we're engaging in a 7 debate that isn't mine to decide. 8 But that was his plan, to put people in 9 there and try to talk them into leaving, and if we could 10 do that without getting an injunction, well then all the 11 better. 12 Q: Your speaking with debate about what 13 to do. At the time, in September 1995, you were a 14 participant in such debates, right? 15 A: Sure. I was there. 16 Q: You were there. 17 A: But Inspector Carson was the man in 18 charge, there's no doubt about that. 19 Q: He was the man in charge. 20 A: Absolutely. 21 Q: But you were his second in command by 22 September 4th, 5th, 6th. 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: Right? 25 A: Yeah.
2571 Q: And so you participated in those 2 debates at the time, right? 3 A: I -- I participated in debates, sure, 4 but the plan and the -- the major decisions with respect 5 to what we were going to do and when we -- when we were 6 going to do them -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- were Inspector Carson's. 9 Q: Yes, but the plan that eventuated was 10 repopulate now, if possible, and get an injunction as 11 soon as possible to remove them. 12 Is that a fair summary? 13 A: Sure. I would agree with you, yes, 14 in -- in light of them not leaving prior to the 15 injunction coming -- 16 Q: In light of them not -- you would 17 have hoped they would have just woken up one (1) morning 18 and decided we've had enough of the Park, we're leaving? 19 A: Well, that would have been -- that 20 would have been the best case scenario. 21 Q: But you didn't think that was very 22 likely? 23 A: I didn't think it was likely, no. 24 Q: Now, you explained to Inspector 25 Robertson why you thought things had to be done quickly
2581 on page 4, the middle of the page. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Next to MW: 4 "Yeah. I'll tell you why we'd like to 5 get in there earlier because we've been 6 at this for over a month now, what with 7 people in the ground and stuff, and 8 then we've had other guys camping 9 there. We've had ERT on the ground 10 here twenty-four (24) hours of the day 11 for the last month. And basically what 12 happens is they start rocking and 13 rolling at around 2:00, 3:00, four 14 o'clock and gets busy for us, like 15 really busy for us between 4:00 and two 16 o'clock in the morning, because they're 17 out of the sack and they're out to 18 cause trouble. 19 So what we'd like to do is we'd like to 20 get our people back into the Park prior 21 to that before they start moseying 22 around and start bringing -- you know, 23 people start wandering back into the 24 Camp and we're really uncomfortable 25 sending our guys in there without
2591 somebody overhead." 2 You told him that right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: So you were anxious to get in there 5 quickly, right? 6 A: This is in context to the 7 repopulation of the Park. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: As I've -- as I've given evidence-in- 10 chief is that if you go back to the beginning of this -- 11 the meeting at, 9:25 Inspector Carson wants a helicopter 12 there. We're talking about the possibility of 13 repopulating the Park and we're concerned about officer 14 safety. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And that is -- this is the point I'm 17 making here that we would -- if we're going to repopulate 18 the Park, that it's my opinion that it's best to do it 19 before the time that I've given here, because people 20 start wandering around and it starts to get active. 21 So if we're going to do that it would be 22 very helpful to have a helicopter up above so when the 23 officers go in to repopulate the Park it's about we can - 24 - you know, we have a more -- we have a three (3) 25 dimensional view of what's going on. So that's what this
2601 is about. 2 Q: Yes, and you were, one might say, 3 almost begging Inspector Robertson to provide a 4 helicopter as soon as possible so that you could 5 repopulate the Park that afternoon right? 6 A: I was attempting -- I wouldn't use 7 the word begging, I would say that I was -- I was trying 8 to give him all the information as to why it was -- it 9 was in our best interest to have that helicopter there as 10 soon as possible. 11 But again, if you go on in the 12 conversation and you see that Robertson talks about, you 13 know, there are so many hours on a -- on a helicopter and 14 I -- I concede that, you know, this -- we're not the only 15 place in Ontario that needs policing and, you know, as 16 soon as you get one here would be fine with us. 17 Q: Right. And you say, in the next 18 paragraph on page 4 of 6 -- 19 A: Yes? 20 Q: -- interrupting Inspector Robinson 21 according to the transcript when he -- interrupting him 22 when he said: 23 "What if I bring Sudbury down?" 24 You say: 25 "No, and I talked to John about that
2611 and I explained your position and we -- 2 there's no doubt that we agree that, 3 you know, we've got the entire province 4 to concern ourselves with, you know. 5 As much as this isn't an issue for us 6 down here we're certainly cognizant of 7 that, but I'm just trying to give you 8 the complete picture so you have all 9 the information, you know that." 10 A: Right. 11 Q: "The sooner the better is the best I 12 can give you. And if it can't get here 13 til 4:00, then we're fucked til 4:00, 14 but if you can get here sooner then the 15 better off we are." 16 A: Right. 17 Q: You said that, right? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: So you were making a strong pitch for 20 him to get there as soon as possible; is that fair? 21 A: The chopper, yes. If -- if at all 22 possible, if it was there before 4:00 that would be best, 23 assuming we were going to repopulate the Park. 24 Q: Thank you. Now, if you could please 25 turn to Tab 21 -- sorry, not Tab 21.
2621 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yes, sorry. Excuse me, Mr. 4 Commissioner, Tab 19, please. Tab 19 is part of Exhibit 5 P-427, the handwritten scribe notes. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Inquiry Document 1000152. Please 8 turn to page 446 of that document. 9 A: 446? Yes, sir. 10 Q: At the top of page 446 it says: 11 "MW." 12 That's evidently Mark Wright, right? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And it says: 15 "Briefed..." 16 Is it 'E' on press release or somebody on 17 press release? 18 A: I don't know. Yeah, something, yeah. 19 Q: Doing presumably the task that we saw 20 you were assigned earlier, of doing a press release. 21 A: Well my recollection, sir, and I 22 suspect we have them, but my recollection is no such 23 press release ever went out identifying the individuals 24 that we had warrants for arrest -- 25 Q: I see.
2631 A: But -- 2 Q: But you did brief somebody -- 3 A: About a press -- 4 Q: -- for the purpose of that press 5 release but the press release was never issued, as far as 6 you know. 7 A: No. What I'm saying is I briefed 8 somebody about -- about -- I briefed -- whoever that EN 9 is, about a press release but I don't -- I'm not -- I'm 10 not prepared to agree with you that it's the press 11 release that you and I talked about earlier. 12 Q: I see. 13 A: It could have been any press 14 release -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What period 16 of time are these notes referring to? These are 17 handwritten notes, I can't tell what they're referring 18 to. 19 What time are these notes referring to? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 446 at 22 the top. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe it's -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What day, 25 what time?
2641 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm pretty sure I-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It isn't 3 clear. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? It seems to 5 be 2:17 on the afternoon -- sorry, 2:17 in the morning. 6 So I'm not sure, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well that's 8 why I'm having difficulty following the sequence and the 9 time sequence. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh. Sorry, a 11 little bit after the entry that I'm looking there's an 12 entry 17:02. Is that correct, sir? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because 14 there's no time in that. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: In the middle of 16 page 446, approximately, it's entered 17:02, which would 17 mean 5:02 in the afternoon; is that correct? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On what day? 19 September -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This would be 21 September 5th, I believe; is that correct? 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It is September 5th. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 5:02, 25 roughly?
2651 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So it's at 5:02, or 2 rather, sorry, this is an entry prior to 5 -- sometime 3 late in the afternoon of September 5th, sir. 4 THE WITNESS: Well some time prior to 5 5:02, right? 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: Sometime prior. 9 A: Right. Because the -- the next time 10 is -- on the other page is 16:45, so I -- I think we 11 could probably close it down to between quarter to 5:00 12 and 5:02. 13 Q: Well, in my entry there's some -- 14 A: If that helps. 15 Q: -- pages missing here, but certainly 16 page 436 seems to be at 2:17 in the afternoon. And I 17 don't think we have to be particularly precise about 18 this. It's some time in between 2:30 and five o'clock. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fair 20 enough. I just wanted to have a rough idea. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Ms. Esmonde, as 22 usual, is of assistance. And she -- she informs me that 23 there's an entry in the typed scribe notes at 16:45, just 24 prior to this, so perhaps this is some time after 16:45 25 and before 5:00.
2661 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. Mr. 2 Commissioner, I hate to interrupt but I wonder if I can 3 give some assistance here. We've been looking at page 4 446, at the top it says "MW Briefed." 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: And I think what it 7 says is ERT, because if you go to the typed scribe notes, 8 it's clear that at this point in time the Inspector is 9 briefing ERT, the Emergency Response Team. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It could be 11 ERT. It's got 'E' and you can't see what the scratches 12 are after that, but I guess it could be ERT. If the 13 typed says ERT then maybe -- it's hard to read ERT into 14 that. But if that's what the -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: In any event, I 16 wasn't interested in that. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you 18 weren't interested in that. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm interested in 20 the next paragraph, sir. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: So all I wanted to establish by the 24 "MW" was that you were present, right? 25 A: Yes.
2671 Q: And you said something. And then 2 right after that is JC, John Carson. And so you 3 evidently were there when he said what he is recorded as 4 saying afterward. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: PD Chief -- I'm not sure what that 7 means. Do you -- can you assist us with this? 8 A: I can't help you, sir. 9 Q: Oh, according -- Ms. Esmonde is very 10 helpful and she says according to the typed notes, that 11 means they have updated Chief Coles. 12 A: Oh, okay. 13 Q: Chief Superintendent Coles. 14 A: Updated Chief, right. 15 Q: And then -- but then it indicates: 16 "Marcel Beaubien has contacted 17 Premier." 18 So you were aware at that point, 19 obviously, that Marcel Beaubien -- at least it was 20 reported that Marcel Beaubien had contacted the Premier; 21 is that fair? 22 A: Yeah, I would say that I must have 23 been aware; looks like I was there. 24 Q: And then it goes on: 25 "Press release by Sol Gen [sorry,
2681 Solicitor General], not Indian issue, 2 MNR and Provincial issue." 3 A: This is -- 4 Q: So you -- 5 A: Sir, this is -- 6 Q: -- received that information at that 7 time, right? 8 A: This is the 5th, correct? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: So is that correct, sir? You would 12 have received that information that, according to a press 13 release by the Solicitor General, this was not an Indian 14 issue, it was an MNR and Provincial issue, right? 15 A: Right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Your indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 20 Excuse me a second, please. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 22 to have to take a break sometime this afternoon. Would 23 this be a good time. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It would be a very 25 good time, thank you.
2691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 2 break now. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 4 we break, I just wanted to alert -- I've sent around to 5 My Friends, by e-mail, some -- we've correct -- corrected 6 the -- there were some minor errors that we had 7 identified when Ms. Jones was going through the 8 transcripts this morning. And over lunch I listened to 9 them, and Constable Evans listened to them again, and we 10 picked up some more small errors. 11 And so I'm going to -- I've sent them 12 around to everybody and I would propose that the 13 corrected versions be substituted for the copies that 14 we've put this morning. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Millar. We'll take an afternoon break now. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 18 for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 3:00 p.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 3:18 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed, please be seated. 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: Commissioner, just
2701 before Mr. Rosenthal resumes, I just wanted to advise 2 you, Detective Inspector Wright advised me during the 3 break that he's content to sit as long as -- as you need 4 this afternoon, if that's a possibility. 5 I'm just concerned about his evidence 6 being split three (3) separate times and I think that's 7 his concern as well. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: But I just raise that 10 and that's entirely -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're all 12 concerned about that. I really don't want that to 13 happen, but unfortunately we have a program tomorrow and 14 they have to do some setting up of the room. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: I see. All right. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I'm not 17 sure how late we could stay, but we'll see. We'll see 18 where we are. 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 21 making some good headway, Mr. Rosenthal? It's hard for 22 me to tell. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I am, I think. But 24 I don't think I'll finish this afternoon, but we'll see. 25 I'll try my best.
2711 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if we 2 get near the end of the day and you're close, we could 3 sit a little -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I appreciate -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- bit 6 longer. It would be nice if you could finish today. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It would indeed, 8 I -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You just 10 carry on. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- could relax next 12 week, then. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, yes, 14 just carry on. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: But, in any event, there is a matter 18 that Mr. Scullion brought to my attention. This is an 19 exhibit that was introduced this morning, P-1143. 20 I was asking you a little bit earlier, 21 sir, about the conditions with respect to the release of 22 Clifford George for the -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- toll house incident. So P-1143, 25 which is also inquiry document number 2002610, was
2721 introduced this morning as an exhibit. 2 The last part of the first page says: 3 "And George refused to agrees -- agree 4 the condition." 5 Then if you turn to the second page, 6 sorry, "condition" and then it continues: 7 "... of release." 8 And then it says: 9 "Stay two (2) kilometres away from Camp 10 Ipperwash or Ipperwash Provincial 11 Park." 12 Now, I pointed to the other suggested 13 conditions on that fax and asked you if that was the more 14 stringent one that had been discussed and so on, but now 15 this is not a condition that was on the fax. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: This seems to be an even more 18 stringent condition right, stay two (2) kilometres away 19 from Camp Ipperwash or Ipperwash Provincial Park right? 20 A: What was the other -- I don't recall 21 the -- 22 Q: The other was -- one was stay off 23 Matheson Drive and the other -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- was stay out of Ipperwash Park --
2731 A: Right. 2 Q: -- I believe, right? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: So this would be a much broader 5 condition right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Now, and when I asked you about the 8 other conditions, you said you didn't recall I believe 9 that those were necessarily the conditions that you had 10 suggested or discussed with Inspector Carson. 11 Does this bring back a memory of a 12 condition that was discussed between you and/or Inspector 13 Carson and/or the Crown Attorney involved? 14 A: No, it doesn't. 15 Q: You don't recall? 16 A: No. I'm not the author of this 17 occurrence report either it would be -- 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: -- Parks. You'll see at the top 20 right-hand corner of page 1, sir, -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- identifies the author of an 23 occurrence report. 24 Q: Yes, sir, that's the author of the 25 report.
2741 A: Right. 2 Q: But it reports a possible condition. 3 You were involved in discussion of the conditions with 4 the Crown Attorney. So I'm asking you: Do you recall 5 discussing this condition? 6 A: No, I do not. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, then if we could continue with 12 the handwritten scribe notes which are at your Tab 19 and 13 are Exhibit P-427, if we look at page 438 of those notes. 14 And Mr. Millar kindly has put it on the screen for all of 15 us. 16 And one can tell by looking a little bit 17 before this that, this appears to be an entry sometime 18 shortly after 2:35 in the afternoon of September 5th, so 19 a little bit before the entry that we looked at on page 20 246 which is reasonable this being at page 238. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Page 438, sorry, as opposed to 446. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Now, attributed to John Carson, in 25 the last paragraph on this page, is:
2751 "Premier's -- Premier -- Premier's no 2 different treatment from anybody else. 3 We're okay; on right track." 4 Now, do you recall getting that notion 5 that the Premier had indicated there shouldn't be any 6 different treatment from anybody else and that the OPP's 7 on the right track? 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 Q: You don't recall that you would have 10 been present for this? 11 A: Sure, yeah. 12 Q: You would have been -- you would have 13 at the time been aware of that, even if you forget it ten 14 (10) years later? 15 A: Yes, I agree. 16 Q: And what you would have understood 17 by, Premier, no different treatment, was that the fact 18 that these are Aboriginal people should not lead to any 19 special treatment correct? 20 A: You know I -- I would have taken it 21 just as what, I guess, he said, that they're no 22 different -- 23 Q: Sorry, could you speak a little 24 louder please? 25 A: -- treatment from anybody else. I
2761 would -- I would -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But he said 3 he doesn't recall it so I'm not sure what you're asking. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He was present and 5 I'm asking what he would take from that phrase, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From what 7 phrase, from the phrase -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: From the phrase -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that he 10 doesn't recall or you're asking -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- no different 12 treatment from anybody else that he did hear at the time, 13 sir. He -- he -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He did hear 15 it? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- told us that he 17 heard it at the time. He doesn't recall it now ten (10) 18 years later. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't recall-- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: -- hearing that. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He doesn't recall 23 it but he agrees he would have heard it -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't-- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and I'm asking
2771 what he would take from such a phrase that he heard, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 3 sure -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But how can he answer 5 the -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 7 sure -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- question? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 10 how that's helpful. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He doesn't recall -- 12 he doesn't recall hearing it at -- he doesn't recall if 13 he heard it at the time -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whatever he 15 thinks about it at this point is not helpful. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He thinks he might 17 have -- you know it's... 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He answered 20 that question in-chief as well. I made a note he was 21 asked, I believe, that and he said he didn't recall and 22 he's repeated that. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, sir, 24 he may or may not always understand by a statement of 25 that type "no different treatment" in this context for
2781 anybody else meaning don't give any special treatment to 2 Aboriginal people based on that. He may not. 3 He may -- he may answer he doesn't know 4 what he would have taken from it but he may have an 5 answer and there's -- there's no objection to the 6 question, in my respectful submission. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But he 8 doesn't -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He can always 10 answer he doesn't -- he doesn't know. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just not 12 sure how helpful it is at this stage. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, to know -- if 14 he does have an answer it would be helpful. If he 15 doesn't, then I would move on. So may I ask the 16 question? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ask the 18 question. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: Now, sir, can you assist us as to 22 what you would have taken if you had been -- if you -- 23 when you were informed, although you forget specifically 24 being informed -- 25 A: Right.
2791 Q: -- that the Premier had the view 2 there should be no different treatment from anybody else? 3 A: No, I can't -- I can't be helpful -- 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: -- because I don't recall that. 6 Q: Staying with the handwritten scribe 7 notes, could you please turn to page 450 thereof. 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And my understanding is that it was 13 corrected that this should be in the morning of September 14 6th. But whatever time it may have been, if you look at 15 the middle of page 450, there's a statement attributed to 16 JC, John Carson and underneath it says MW. 17 So that would suggest that you were 18 present for the statement that JC made, right? 19 A: I would agree. 20 Q: So then the statement attributed to 21 John Carson is: 22 "If someone can get it -- do it 23 tonight -- " 24 A: Bring. 25 Q: "-- bring here to office --"
2801 And then something about part of command 2 team: 3 "Heat from political side. Made strong 4 comments in the House. Court 5 injunction moving along. Keep tonight 6 quiet, keep on checkpoints wherever you 7 are..." 8 And so on. So you I don't believe have a 9 specific recollection of hearing that now ten (10) years 10 later. 11 A: I agree I don't. 12 Q: But -- but you agree you would have 13 heard it at the time? 14 A: Yes. It appears that I was there. 15 Q: And by "Heat from political side" can 16 you assist us as to what you may have taken from that? 17 A: Well once again, I don't -- I don't 18 recall hearing that so I don't know how I can be helpful 19 with what it was I took from that in 1995. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Mr. Millar informs me kindly that 24 that was at the meeting on September 5th at 16:07. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At 18:07.
2811 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: 18:07, thank you. 3 A: September when? 4 Q: 18:07 on September 5. In other 5 words -- 6 A: September 5, right. 7 Q: Around 6:00 p.m. on September 5. 8 Does that assist you learning about the 'Heat from the 9 political side" on September 5 as opposed to September 6. 10 A: No, it doesn't. 11 Q: If you could please turn to your Tab 12 20. I -- I'm sorry, I'm going to skip that. It's not so 13 important anymore, Mr. Commissioner. 14 Now if we could turn to your Tab 35 which 15 is Exhibit P-1115 to this proceeding and is a transcript 16 of a phone call. 17 "Mark Wright in command post, September 18 6th, 1995 at 19:54 hours." 19 So just before eight o'clock on the 20 evening of September 6th -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Some three (3) hours before Dudley 23 George was killed. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And shortly after, you drove by the
2821 sandy parking lot and observed some persons in the sandy 2 parking lot. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And you were reporting that fact in 5 fact to the command post. That was evidently the purpose 6 of this call, right? 7 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 8 Q: Sorry? 9 A: Yes, sir. I agree. 10 Q: To report -- to report your 11 observation to the command post so they would be updated 12 with that information, right? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And you reported: 15 "We got about up to eight (8) 16 individuals at the picnic table area." 17 I assume you know what that is. 18 "And then just about on the edge of the 19 road they got some bats and stuff in 20 their hand and apparently they damaged 21 some -- an individual's vehicle. 22 So we got some mischief right now and 23 wilful damage and I talked to them for 24 a while. 25 They weren't sure who I was and it
2831 appears to me they're up to something. 2 So can you talk to your ERT guy in 3 there with the Inspector. I'm on my 4 way back. I'll give you a full rep. 5 when I get back. And I think we should 6 be moving some people down that way. 7 I think we should be moving some people 8 down that way. Almost 10:20." 9 So you were making a preliminary 10 suggestion that some officers should move down towards 11 the sandy parking lot; is that fair? 12 A: No. I was making the suggestion that 13 we needed to increase the number of officers at the 14 checkpoints down there. 15 Q: Well, you say "down that way". You 16 don't -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- say at the checkpoints? 19 A: Well, I -- 20 Q: You say down that way. 21 A: Right. Well, that's what I meant. 22 Q: You meant the checkpoints. 23 A: To the checkpoints, yes. 24 Q: How many officers were already at 25 each of the checkpoints, approximately?
2841 A: I don't recall. I've -- I think 2 there was at least five (5) or six (6). 3 Q: Five (5) or six (6) per checkpoint? 4 A: I think so, yes. 5 Q: And so you're suggesting it should be 6 increased to eight (8) or ten (10) per checkpoint. 7 A: I didn't -- I don't -- I don't think 8 I gave a number, I just thought we should bring some more 9 people down there. 10 Q: Yes, more people down there. 11 A: Right, to the checkpoints. 12 Q: But with respect, I would suggest 13 that your wording does not suggest checkpoints. It 14 suggests sending them down towards the sandy parking lot. 15 A: Well, I would disagree. 16 Q: I see. Down that way meant the 17 checkpoints? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Now, you said up to eight (8) 20 individuals. You agree that up to eight (8) means a 21 maximum of eight (8), right? 22 A: Yes, sure. 23 Q: And would suggest something, five 24 (5), six (6), seven (7), eight (8), something like that, 25 right?
2851 A: Up to eight (8) sure. 2 Q: Yeah, it wouldn't -- wouldn't suggest 3 it's as few as three (3) or four (4) probably, right? 4 A: No. 5 Q: But certainly nothing more than eight 6 (8), maybe five (5), six (6), seven (7) or eight (8), 7 right? 8 A: Maybe eight (8) -- well, sure. It 9 was a rough number as I -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- gave in my evidence in-chief. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, if you could please turn to your 16 Tab 55. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Which is the transcript of your 19 testimony in Court the next day, September 7 -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: It's Exhibit P-737, Inquiry document 22 3000504, right. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: If you could you please turn to page 25 27 of that document.
2861 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Well, perhaps we should begin at the 5 bottom of page 26 if we could -- 6 A: Twenty-six (26). 7 Q: At the very bottom of page 26. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The last line. 10 "A: As I turned the corner, and I saw 11 approximately eight (8) First Nations 12 people, male, ranging from I would say, 13 eighteen (18) to thirty-ish, standing 14 right on that curve, right on the edge 15 where the pavement meets the sand or 16 turns into hard packed sand and is the 17 extension onto -- into Lake Huron. 18 And I would say half of them were 19 brandishing what looked to me like axe 20 handles, and they were motioning me to 21 stop my car." 22 And so on. That's an accurate recording 23 of the evidence you gave on that occasion, sir? 24 A: Yes, it is. 25 Q: And that was evidence under Oath, of
2871 course, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So at that time you reported to the 4 Court approximately eight (8) persons, approximately half 5 of whom had something in their hand? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Now, if you could please turn to your 8 Tab 36. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: This is a reproduction of Tab 48, I 14 believe, of Exhibit P-444B. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And there's also a Tab 49 in this 19 excerpt, both of which are copies of the same transcript, 20 I believe. 21 So we'll start with the first one. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: John Carson and Mark Wright.
2881 A: Right. 2 Q: September 6, 1995. Time 19:58:39 3 hours. 4 A: Just -- sir, my Tab 49 is not what's 5 on Tab 36. 6 Q: Sorry, sir. I was talking about Tabs 7 in a different document. 8 A: Oh, okay, sorry. 9 Q: Tab 36 is all you need to be 10 concerned about. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: I was making reference to other 13 places in the -- 14 A: Okay, pardon me. 15 Q: -- exhibits where these tabs occur. 16 So Tab 36 is a transcript of a telephone call between you 17 and Inspector Carson -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- at 19:58:39 on September 6th, 20 right? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And here you report at the second 23 page of the transcript, about a third of the way down: 24 "They got about eight (8) of them there 25 with baseball bats right on the road
2891 edge, you know." 2 Right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Put it to you, that would have given 5 the impression that all eight (8) of them had baseball 6 bats, right? 7 A: That -- yeah I would agree with you. 8 Yeah. 9 Q: Yes. And that was a bit more 10 dangerous sounding than the true fact? 11 A: I would say it's different than the 12 other two (2), yes. I don't know -- I don't think I'd 13 agree with you that's more dangerous sounding. That 14 wasn't the intent of my message there. 15 Q: Now at this Inspector Carson was away 16 at dinner at a private residence, you learned. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And Inspector Linton had been left in 19 charge. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And you report to Inspector Carson 22 the current situation, including what I just read out, 23 right? 24 A: I attempt to, yes. 25 Q: And you attempt to give an overview
2901 as to what was going on at that moment. 2 A: Yes, I try, yes, correct. 3 Q: And then turning to the next page, 4 it's page 308, I believe, of Tab 48 in Exhibit 444(b), if 5 you go most of the way down the page, the last entry 6 attributed to you, Wright, and it's been -- the 7 transcript has been corrected I believe I have the 8 correct reading now when I say that you said: 9 "Listen Boss, I got Linton here and -- 10 well if those people can identify the 11 guys who threw rocks, we can do 12 something. But if they can't, then 13 they're not doing anything wrong." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And you've explained to us that you 16 were conveying to Inspector Carson, Inspector Linton's 17 view -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- at that point. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: That if you can identify somebody who 22 threw rocks, then you can do something, then they are 23 doing something wrong, right? Sorry, you can't just 24 shake your answer. 25 A: Yes, I'm waiting for you to finish,
2911 yes. 2 Q: But you agree with that part of it? 3 A: I agree, yes. 4 Q: And then on the other hand, if you 5 can identify the person throwing a rock then you could 6 act against them for a criminal offence. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: That's what Inspector Linton had 9 communicated to you and you're communicating his view to 10 Inspector Carson. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: But then Inspector Carson answers: 13 "Well, if they going out there with 14 baseball bats, you got them for weapons 15 dangerous." 16 A: Right. 17 Q: So you understood that what he was 18 telling you is whether or not you could identify someone 19 with a rock, you could charge them with possession of a 20 weapon dangerous to the public peace, just by virtue of 21 the fact they're standing there with baseball bats, 22 right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And that was more like you wanted to 25 hear at that point, right?
2921 A: No, that was my point. That was exac 2 -- I mean he -- I was in total agreement with him and I 3 think you can tell by the tone of my voice when I'm 4 talking -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- to him about what Linton is saying 7 that -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- I'm somewhat exasperated by 10 Linton's train of thought with respect to what's going on 11 there and what action he can take based on criminal 12 offences that may -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- or may not be taking place. 15 Q: So your view and Inspector Carson's 16 view were identical that there was a criminal offence 17 being committed by just standing there with baseball 18 bats, whether or not you could find the person who threw 19 the rock or identify the person who threw the rocks, you 20 should still be able to go down there and arrest them, 21 right? 22 A: Sure. But there were other offences 23 besides possession of a weapon dangerous to the public 24 peace, as well. 25 Q: And what other offences did you have
2931 in mind at the time, sir? 2 A: Well, you have -- you have an 3 unlawful assembly there, you have mischief as it relates 4 to the roadway and the sandy parking lot, because if you 5 go back to my conversation with the individual on the 6 roadway when I came around the corner there, I asked him 7 specifically if I could go to the sandy parking lot, and 8 he said no. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: So -- and I did that for that 11 specific reason, to identify the mischief in relation to 12 not allowing me the ability to go to what I perceived to 13 be public property. So you have -- you have mischief in 14 relation to property and you have those other offences. 15 Q: So, in your view, you had a number of 16 possible grounds on which to arrest people? 17 A: Yeah. And it was -- was not so much 18 the -- the ability to identify criminal offences was not 19 a means to an end. 20 My concern, my mind set as I've said here 21 is that this was a threat to public safety with respect 22 to the people who lived there, the general public 23 involved, and that I wanted to move those people back 24 into the Park. 25 However they were committing criminal
2941 offences and you know in addition to the threat to public 2 safety we have a number of criminal offences that go hand 3 in hand with public safety. 4 Q: Yes. And you can't just move people 5 into a park, you need to have some basis to do it. So 6 the criminal offences would have given you the basis to 7 act is that -- do I understand correctly? 8 A: Well, I -- yes, I guess if -- I mean 9 if you and I are standing on a roadway we're not 10 committing any offence. A police officer can't come and 11 arrest. It comes down to intent. What are they doing 12 there in relation to that property -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- goes to the threat to public 15 order. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: So you know you -- you have to take 18 it in the context in which you find it as a police 19 officer. 20 Q: Yes. And you're telling us if I 21 understand correctly and I'm sure you'll correct me if I 22 do not understand correctly but that you thought it was a 23 threat to public safety to have these people in the sandy 24 parking lot. 25 And you wanted to deal with that by going
2951 there, having the officer -- officers go there and either 2 arrest them or if they went back into the Park, leave 3 them in the Park -- 4 A: Well -- 5 Q: -- but not allow the situation to 6 continue of them staying in the sandy parking lot, right? 7 A: Right, but my first suggestion as -- 8 and -- and it's in the logs is I just wanted to tell them 9 to go back in the Park; that was my first suggestion to 10 Inspector Linton. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And that's -- that's in the logs. 13 Q: I see. And was Inspector Linton's 14 response when you made that suggestion to him? 15 A: He wanted to go down there and -- and 16 arrest them with -- I took it to mean he wanted to take 17 the "B" team with helmets and a K-9 and arrest them. And 18 I took that to mean the officers at the Checkpoint Bravo 19 with a K-9 and we'd go in there and arrest those people. 20 And the scribe notes say: 21 "MW disagrees." 22 That's just -- or to -- to the effect of 23 tell them to go back into the Park. 24 Q: You're saying that Inspector Linton 25 also wanted to arrest them?
2961 A: I'm saying Inspector Linton waffled, 2 to use my term back then and now, as to exactly what it 3 is he wanted to do. The -- the -- as I've given in my 4 evidence is that the -- the manner in which this happened 5 is I went back, I told him what was going on, I suggested 6 that we tell them to go back in the Park. 7 He wanted to arrest those individuals with 8 the "B" team and I took that to mean the -- the 9 checkpoint system at Checkpoint Bravo with a K-9. And I 10 disagreed with him. 11 After that it was -- the next thing was 12 according to the logs and the scribe notes is, well, we 13 can't -- let's get a statement because the -- because if 14 we can't get a statement to identify what they're doing 15 with respect to the damage to the vehicle, they're not 16 committing any criminal offences. 17 Then comes the phone call with Carson 18 where I'm exasperated with respect to Linton's bouncing 19 around and then in the middle of that conversation as 20 trucks and cars are moving towards the sandy parking lot 21 Linton moves to, Let's call the TRU team out. 22 Q: So Linton had according to your 23 evidence at one point suggested the possibility of 24 arresting them with K-9 and so on -- 25 A: Right.
2971 Q: -- but then had waffled on that 2 question and had then backtracked, from your point of 3 view, to the position that, let's wait and get the 4 statement as to what happened with respect to the car, 5 the damage to the car, before we do anything; is that 6 correct? 7 A: No. He's -- he's not waffling in 8 that he's backtracking, he's waffling in his -- in my 9 opinion, in his general inability to make a decision 10 based on what's going on there. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: My -- I'm just concerned about how 13 you worded that because -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- my initial -- my initial position 16 to him was, Let's just tell them to go back into the 17 Park. And his first one was, No, let's go arrest them, 18 then let's not do anything because they're not -- unless 19 we have a statement that says they're committing offences 20 apparently now they're not doing anything wrong. Hence 21 my -- my concern about where it was we were going, vis-a- 22 vis Linton deciding what was the next step. 23 And then before we could go any further 24 the telephone rings and it's Carson looking for me. 25 Q: Yes. And your concerned, and I
2981 believe you told us yesterday or the day before perhaps 2 your frustration? 3 A: Absolutely. 4 Q: You were -- 5 A: I think it's pretty evident on -- 6 with my tone of my voice talking to Carson. 7 Q: And do you think part of your 8 frustration might have been influenced by the fact that 9 you knew that there were people out in the community who 10 were saying that the OPP, in general, was not enforcing 11 the law properly with respect to these people? 12 A: No, no. 13 Q: Well, you were aware of that at the 14 time? 15 A: I was aware of that, but that's not - 16 - you know, that's not my con -- I'm an -- I was -- I'm a 17 police officer -- back then there's a problem I've 18 identified, I've taken it to the incident commander. I'm 19 concerned about what it is he thinks he ought to do. 20 I have an honest belief with respect to 21 the public safety and I'm obligated to -- to see that to 22 an end -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- because if I have that honest 25 belief, and I don't do anything then, you know, frankly,
2991 I'm in neglect of my duty as a police officer. And I was 2 frustrated with Linton's, what I perceived to be, his 3 inability to deal with that situation. 4 Q: Right. And would you agree that 5 Linton, in your view, was behaving in a way consistent 6 with some of the criticisms of the OPP that you were 7 aware of in the community, namely, they say they're 8 enforcing the law, but they don't actually do it. 9 A: Well, it never occurred to me, sir. 10 Q: In retrospect, do you agree with me? 11 A: Well, I mean, I guess moment to 12 moment, because initially he wanted to go down there with 13 officers with helmets and K-9 and arrest those people, so 14 I suspect there are those in the community would have -- 15 that would have preferred that -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And, you know, I mean, you don't deal 18 with -- you don't concern yourself, if you're going to be 19 effective as a police officer, with what the, you know, 20 the general public wants. 21 You do what -- you do what you think is 22 right, based on your knowledge of the law and what -- 23 what -- and the situation that you find yourself in. 24 Q: In any event, whatever you had said 25 earlier, at the time you were talking to Carson, you
3001 reported accurately, I presume, to Carson on page 309, I 2 believe, of this transcript, towards the bottom. 3 Carson asks you: 4 "Okay, so what's Dale want to do then?" 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And you say: 7 "Oh, fuck, I don't know, waffle. We'll 8 be hear 'til fucking daylight figuring 9 it out, and daylight's a wasting." 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And that was an expression of the 12 frustration that you told us about? 13 A: Yeah. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And then the discussion continues 18 between you and Inspector Carson. And about a third of 19 the way or, sorry, two-thirds (2/3's) of the way down the 20 next page, 310, attributed to you is -- 21 A: 310? Pardon me, sir. Yes -- 22 Q: Page 310 of the transcript. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: "Okay, well, what if he asks me what 25 did you say, what do you want me to
3011 tell him?" 2 A: That's right -- 3 Q: Now, first you're discussing then if 4 Linton asks me what you, John Carson said, when I 5 described this situation to you, what do you want me to 6 report to him, right? 7 A: Yeah, I think that's right, yes, 8 yeah. 9 Q: Well, please make sure. That -- 10 A: No, I'm -- I'm agreeing with you, 11 yes. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I'm having a conversation with him, 14 obviously Linton's aware. I -- I'm pretty sure Linton's 15 aware that I'm on the telephone with Carson because it's 16 a pretty small place and it's, What is it you want me to 17 say to him? 18 Q: Right. And then Carson answers: 19 "Well, it's not my (Inaudible is 20 recorded but] -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: You would have understood him saying 23 something to the effect that it's not my call at that 24 point, right? 25 A: That's what was going to be my words
3021 exactly, yes. 2 Q: Because he wasn't present. 3 A: He was pushing me back towards 4 Inspector Linton. Yes, I agree with you. 5 Q: And then you say to Inspector Carson: 6 "Don't you say we go get those fucking 7 guys?" 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: That's clear what you meant by that. 12 A: Well, I can tell you what I meant by 13 that. 14 Q: Yes, tell us. 15 A: That meant I -- I wanted those people 16 out of that parking lot, either move -- to move them out 17 or back into the Park. And failing that, if they were 18 still there, then we would arrest them. 19 And you have to understand, again, the 20 context of this conversation and I explained this earlier 21 in my evidence in-chief that, if you listen to the tape, 22 this conversation is taking place and there's -- there's 23 information flowing in from Zacher down at the 24 checkpoint, about vehicles moving around and things are 25 happening.
3031 You can't take this and isolate this and 2 freeze this in a moment in time. There are a number of 3 things happening and the situation is changing moment to 4 moment. 5 So, you know, my position is now we -- 6 again, is pretty consistent, is that this is a public 7 safety matter and we have to go deal with those 8 individuals. And I appreciate that, you know, I used 9 profanity, and I apologize for that but, nonetheless, 10 that was my position, is we have to go deal with those 11 individuals. 12 And if they were to have run into the 13 Park, that would have been fine with me. I mean, this 14 all comes, and again, to what happened at eight o'clock 15 that -- earlier that morning when we had the individuals 16 around the picnic tables. 17 We sent down a massive number of officers, 18 some of them armed with long guns because there were two 19 (2) individuals on picnic tables. They ran into the Park 20 even though they were committing a number of criminal 21 offences, removed the picnic tables, and life went on. 22 Well, that was my -- you know, that was my 23 mind set. Earlier we had dealt with a movement into the 24 sandy parking lot, we've sent overwhelming numbers down 25 there. They ran into the parking lot, they ran into the
3041 Park, status quo, you know, we're back to a land claim 2 issue and that's fine and dandy. 3 And that's what I wanted to do. We needed 4 to move those people into the Park and bring things back 5 to a position where the public safety wasn't at stake, as 6 far as I was concerned. 7 Q: Would you agree with me there's no 8 place in this telephone call with John Carson where you 9 say you want to get them back into the Park? 10 A: Well that's what I meant by, "Get 11 those fucking guys." That's -- that's what I meant. 12 Q: That's what you meant by "Get those 13 fucking guys?" 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And you assumed that John Carson 16 would know that's what you mean by, "Get the fucking 17 guys. I want them back in the Park?" 18 A: Well once again, sir, you have to 19 listen to the telephone conversation that -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- many things were happening and 22 there are times during that conversation where I stop and 23 actually try to go back and talk to him, but things are 24 moving along. 25 So he may -- I'm not suggesting that he
3051 may have misinterpreted what -- you know, I don't know, 2 you would have to ask him. But I can tell you that's 3 what I meant; move them -- "Go get those fucking guys" 4 was, Deal with the situation. 5 Whether we arrested them or not was fine 6 by me, or whether they ran into the Park was fine by me. 7 Inspector Carson had made it quite clear that we weren't 8 ever going into the Park until we got that injunction. 9 And that was quite clear. So I'm -- I'm 10 pretty satisfied that he knew what I meant by that. 11 Q: Well, sir, it wasn't quite clear you 12 weren't going into the Park without the injunction 13 because you talked a lot about repopulating the Park, 14 right? 15 A: Yes. Oh, I'm talking about -- 16 Q: That's going into the Park, right. 17 A: Sure, yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: What I meant was we -- we didn't go - 20 - we didn't go earlier that morning. At seven o'clock 21 this morning there are a number of -- two (2) individuals 22 on picnic tables, they run into the Park, they stop and 23 they wave at the OPP officers. 24 Well they're -- they're committing -- 25 there's an arrest warrant. I think Mr. George is one of
3061 them where there's mischief and possession of stolen 2 property and willful -- whatever there is. There's a 3 number of criminal offences and -- and warrants are 4 issued for that. 5 And the officers don't run into the Park 6 after the individuals who were sitting on those picnic 7 tables. That was not the intent of that action. 8 And nor did I feel that that was the 9 intent of this action had we were to go down there and 10 deal with that situation. 11 Q: Will you agree with me that at no 12 time prior to September 7, let's say 1995, was the 13 possibility of repopulating, as you called it, the Park, 14 specifically abandoned as a possible strategy? 15 A: I don't know, it wasn't my call. 16 You'd have to ask Inspector Carson. I know we talked 17 about it September 5th, that morning at 9:25, and then I 18 -- I don't ever recall discussing that matter again. 19 Q: And, in particular, it was never 20 taken completely off the table, isn't that fair; as a 21 possibility? 22 A: Well, again, that would -- you'd have 23 to ask him. I -- I -- I didn't think that that was a 24 possibility based on what was happening down there. 25 Q: You did not think it was a
3071 possibility? 2 A: Not -- not shortly -- yes, that's 3 right, I -- 4 Q: You did on September 5th? 5 A: In the morning, yes, I did. But I 6 didn't think after -- later on -- later on that day I 7 didn't think that was possible. 8 Q: What changed your mind as to whether 9 it was possible or not to repopulate the Park? 10 A: Just the -- just the number of things 11 that happened. Our inability to talk to the people and 12 all the other incidents that happened the next -- the 13 next night, the night of the 5th going into September the 14 6th. 15 I just didn't think that it was, in -- in 16 my opinion, that it was something that we could 17 reasonably expect to happen but, once again, that wasn't 18 my call. 19 Q: But you didn't convey that opinion to 20 Inspector Carson? 21 A: No. He didn't ask -- he didn't ask 22 me for my opinion with re -- 23 Q: And you didn't discuss it again. So 24 it is correct, as I said, it was never taken off the 25 table as a possibility; isn't that fair?
3081 A: In -- well you'd have to ask 2 Inspector Carson. Again, it's not -- I didn't think that 3 that was anything plausible after the early morning -- 4 mid morning, September 5th. 5 Q: So I gather you agree now, that when 6 you said, Don't you say we go get those fucking guys -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- it didn't mean specifically get 9 them back in the Park, it meant go get them and do 10 something which could have, in your mind, resulted in 11 either them going back into the Park, you arresting them, 12 or perhaps other possibilities, right? 13 A: Well I don't think there are any 14 other possibilities. We were going to go down there and 15 deal with it. 16 Either they go back into the Park and you 17 no longer have a problem or they don't go into the Park 18 and you have them committing criminal offences and you 19 arrest them. 20 So it's either 'A' or 'B'. 21 Q: I see. And then Inspector Carson 22 responds to your: 23 "Don't you say we go get those fucking 24 guys. Well, we gotta deal with them. 25 We can't let them out in that area with
3091 that stuff." 2 Right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And you took that as his accepting 5 your proposition, without the profanity perhaps, but you 6 have to go get those guys right? 7 A: I think he's agreeing with my -- yes, 8 I would agree with you, he's agreeing with me. 9 Q: And he's accepting that you're going 10 to go get those guys and he's giving a rationale for it; 11 you can't let them out the area with that stuff, right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And earlier he had suggested a 14 possible basis for it in law, namely that they might be 15 committing the offence of weapons dangerous, possession 16 of a weapon dangerous to the public peace, right? 17 A: Right. And I thought there was many 18 more things than that. 19 Q: And you thought there were many more, 20 but you didn't specifically discuss the others with 21 Inspector Carson? 22 A: No, no. 23 Q: So at this point approximately eight 24 o'clock on the evening of September 6th -- 25 A: Right.
3101 Q: -- you and Inspector Carson were ad 2 idem that you have to do something that night, right? 3 A: No, we have to do something specific 4 to that situation. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Okay. Well, that night is not -- I'm 7 specific to that situation. 8 Q: Specific to that situation but that 9 evening? You couldn't waffle like Inspector Linton 10 wanted to and wait; you had to something right? Oh, 11 sorry. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: Sorry. Just before My 13 Friend goes on, I'm sure this was inadvertent. Mr. 14 Rosenthal said in response to Detective Inspector 15 Wright's comments that I thought there were other 16 offences, but you didn't specifically discuss those with 17 Inspector Carson. Actually at page 309 he does. So just 18 to be clear on that. I'm not sure that was -- 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- the point of My 21 Friend's question but he does. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, for a change I 23 appreciate Mr. Sandler's interjection. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL:
3111 Q: Apparently, sir, you agreed with my 2 suggestion -- 3 A: I did. 4 Q: -- that you didn't discuss them but 5 your counsel points out that at the top of page 309, and 6 just -- we should clarify this for the record, I do agree 7 with Mr. Sandler. Let's go back to the bottom of page 8 308. Inspector Carson says: 9 "Well, if they're going out there with 10 baseball bats you've got them for 11 weapons dangerous." 12 And then continuing on the next page you 13 do respond much as you did here: 14 "You've got them for weapons dangerous. 15 You've got them for -- you've got them 16 for fucking mischief to the road. 17 You've got them for unlawful assembly. 18 We've got that house right next door. 19 The [something -- it's not so clear in 20 the transcript but] we got that -- they 21 got the school bus there and the dump 22 truck moving towards the roadway." 23 So you did suggest other criminal offences 24 that could form the basis for your action -- 25 A: Right.
3121 Q: -- when you got those guys. I'll 2 leave out the profanity that you don't -- 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: -- like, right? So getting those 5 guys you had in your view and Inspector Carson responds 6 to your greater list by saying, Okay. So apparently in 7 your combined view you had a number of possible charges 8 that you could have charged those people with had they 9 not done what you wanted and gone back into the Park, 10 right? 11 A: Right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And then on the other hand there was 16 Inspector Linton waffling, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In your view? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And he wanted to wait until he got 21 details of the statement about the damage that had been 22 to the car; that was your understanding, right? 23 A: Well, for a moment in time yes, he 24 did. 25 Q: At one point he said. Let's wait and
3131 get some details about that damage? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Now, sir, you told us that you had 4 understood that there were some stones thrown at a car? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: It was the nature of the damage? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And you knew it was a male person -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- driving the car? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And at what point did you get more 13 information? Well, let me ask more specifically. At 14 what point did you learn that the male person had been a 15 Band Councillor? 16 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. I -- I know the 17 first time in my review of this is I'm giving that 18 evidence at the injunction the next morning but I'm -- 19 I'm sure I knew about it prior to that I just -- I can't 20 put my finger on it. 21 Q: Okay. Well, Inspector Linton -- 22 A: It wasn't right away anyway, sir. It 23 wasn't immediate. 24 Q: Yes. You've told us that Inspector 25 Linton was awaiting the report, right, of the incident?
3141 A: He wanted -- 2 Q: He wanted to await -- await the 3 report? 4 A: Agreed. 5 Q: And then shortly after this phone 6 call that we've just looked at between you and Inspector 7 Carson, Inspector Carson did come back to the Forest 8 Detachment? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And then were you present when he 11 arrived? 12 A: Yes, yes. I think I was on -- 13 Q: And then you would have -- 14 A: -- the phone. 15 Q: I'm sorry? 16 A: I think I was on the phone. 17 Q: On the phone to someone else? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: But present in the same room -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- that he entered? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Who were you on the phone with? 24 A: McCabe, I think. 25 Q: McCabe, I see. That was the -- the
3151 lawyer -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- representing the Attorney General, 4 talking about the injunction. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: So after you got done with the call 7 from McCabe, you would have undoubtedly spoken to Carson, 8 is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And presumably would have had a 11 further discussion of what should be done at this point, 12 right? 13 A: I think they -- that's being done 14 while I'm talking to McCabe. Linton and Carson are 15 talking and I think that the decision to do what it was 16 they were going to do was being made while I'm talking to 17 McCabe on the phone. 18 Q: I see. So it was your understanding, 19 though, before the end or towards the end of the phone 20 call with Carson that we just looked at, that you and 21 Carson agreed something has to be done? 22 A: Regarding those individuals down 23 there? 24 Q: Regarding the people in the sandy 25 parking lot at that time.
3161 A: Right. 2 Q: And so then you're on the phone with 3 McCabe and it's your understanding or recollection that 4 as you're on the phone, Inspectors Linton and Carson are 5 discussing what is to be done? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And then when you got off the phone 8 and would have then spoken to Inspector Carson -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- were the specifics of what is to 11 be done already determined, to your recollection, or did 12 you participate in the further discussion of how are we 13 going to do this? 14 A: Well, I think perhaps I need to go 15 have a look at the scribe notes. I mean, off the top of 16 my head, I'm not -- I'm not quite sure -- 17 Q: Okay. If the scribe notes will 18 assist you, please do. 19 The printed ones, I believe, are at your 20 Tab 18. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the handwritten ones at Tab 19. 23 A: Right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
3171 A: I don't suppose we have the time that 2 the conversation ended with Mr. McCabe? That would be of 3 some assistance, or do we? 4 Q: Well, we did have a time on the -- 5 the phone call with you and Carson. That's approximately 6 eight o'clock in the evening. 7 A: Right, and then I get on the phone -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- with McCabe and it's a fairly 10 lengthy conversation. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: You're asking me -- 13 Q: Mr. Millar, as usual, is going to 14 assist us with that time -- 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: If it assists My 16 Friend, it was about 20:45 that the McCabe conversation 17 would have ended, because it was approximately nineteen 18 (19) minutes. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Two (2) times Mr. 20 Sandler has helped me this afternoon. I'm in his great 21 debt. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay, and if you go to page 23 76 in the scribe notes, sir. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL:
3181 Q: The printed scribe notes? 2 A: Printed, yeah. 3 Q: Page 76? 4 A: Yeah. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 9 A: It alludes to conversation that I had 10 with Inspector Carson at the time. So I make -- the 11 notes say at 20:46: 12 " Mark Wright spoke to cottagers 13 earlier and they are very upset." 14 So that's in relation to that conversation 15 down at the MNR parking lot. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And then Mark Wright, "I bet my life 18 it's okay there." We're talking about the -- the kiosk. 19 He was concerned that there was line of 20 sight from the kiosk to the sandy parking lot, because 21 there was a concern that an individual was acting 22 somewhat strangely in the kiosk and I -- having been -- 23 having been down there, attempting to make contact with 24 the people, I was certain that there was no line of 25 sight, so hence the "I bet my life it's okay there."
3191 Q: So -- 2 A: And -- and then there are other 3 things that I'm having conversation with Inspector Carson 4 about. 5 Q: Thank you. So looking at the 6 previous page -- 7 A: Right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Or rather, two (2) pages previous, 12 page 74 -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It says at 20:29, "John Carson 15 arrived." 16 A: Right. 17 Q: So we can take that as being fairly 18 accurate, that he returned shortly before 8:30 that 19 evening. 20 A: Right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: And I'm pretty sure I'm on the phone. 25 Q: And you are --
3201 A: With McCabe. 2 Q: -- sure you're on the phone with Mr. 3 McCabe at that point. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: So that's 8:30 in the evening. And 6 then we continue looking at page 75, we see that John 7 Carson attempted to call the TRU team at 8:34 or 8 thereabouts and then at 8:36: 9 "John Carson called TRU down. Kent 10 Skinner to still come." 11 So am I correct that at that point John 12 Carson said hold off for TRU, don't -- don't come. But 13 Kent Skinner the officer in charge and commander of TRU 14 should come? 15 A: Well as you recall Linton had already 16 called TRU out. And that was the main reason that Carson 17 attended at the command post because Linton had called 18 TRU out. And -- 19 Q: How do you know that was the main 20 reason that Carson attended as opposed to his agreeing 21 with you that something had to be done and he came back 22 to help you do it? 23 A: Well that's -- that's my feeling that 24 he -- he -- 25 Q: That's your opinion, okay.
3211 A: -- he came because of his concern 2 over Inspector Linton calling out the TRU team. 3 Q: But you had a concern that it was a 4 public safety issue to leave these people in the sandy 5 parking lot, right? 6 A: Agreed. 7 Q: And you understood that John Carson 8 shared that concern as well, right? 9 A: Agreed. 10 Q: And that would surely be sufficient 11 concern to bring the incident commander back on site, 12 would it not? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? 15 A: No. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: Because it's clear by his telephone - 18 - the conversation that Carson and I had, that he wasn't 19 going to come in, that as a matter of fact he talked 20 about, well, Mark, I'll see at 9:15 and we'll go over 21 what you're going to talk about at the injunction. 22 It's not until I tell him he's calling out 23 TRU and you can tell by the concern in our voices and -- 24 and John says to me, well if he's going to call out TRU, 25 you have him call me.
3221 And the next thing that happens is Linton 2 calls Carson and than moments later Carson shows up at 3 the command post and that's why I jump to -- or leap to 4 the conclusion that he -- he arrives over his concern 5 about the Tactical Team being used. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Your indulgence, 10 Mr. Commissioner. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Well, would you agree that you inform 16 Inspector Carson towards the end of the phone 17 conversation, that he's calling out TRU -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- and earlier than that, before 20 that, Inspector Carson had agreed with you that something 21 has to be done that night? 22 A: Sure. Yeah. But that doesn't go to 23 -- the two (2) don't come together. Something having to 24 be done does not equate to the TRU team and I made that 25 clear --
3231 Q: Oh, yes. 2 A: -- in my evidence. 3 Q: Those are two (2) different things. 4 A: Exactly. 5 Q: But I would suggest to you that and 6 of course only John Carson would know what was in his 7 mind, but you -- you told us that you assumed he came 8 back because the TRU team had been called down. 9 I would suggest to you that either of 10 those events would require the incident commander to come 11 back. I mean either of the two (2) events, the TRU team 12 being called or the decision that something was going to 13 be done with respect to the people in the sandy parking 14 lot. 15 A: I disagree. 16 Q: Disagree? Thank you. Now I 17 interrupted both of us to go back and pick up on that 18 point because you alluded to it and I should like then to 19 return to the scribe notes for the evening of September 6 20 at Tab 18. 21 And we were at the entry on page 75 at 22 20:36 -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "John Carson called TRU down. Kent 25 Skinner to still come."
3241 A: Right. 2 Q: And I believe I asked you but I'm not 3 sure that you confirmed that the meaning of that is that 4 he told TRU, wait -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- for Kent Skinner, the leader of 7 TRU, he said come to the Detachment to discuss the 8 matter. 9 A: I -- agreed. 10 Q: Thank you. And then a minute later, 11 Kent Skinner did in fact arrive according to the notes. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And briefed by John Carson. Now you 14 would have participated in that discussion, is that 15 correct? 16 A: I doubt it. 17 Q: You doubt it? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: I see. Do you think -- you were off 20 the phone with Mr. McCabe by now? 21 A: I don't know if I am or not. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: It's nineteen (19) minutes, I think 24 we were told and I don't know what -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You would of.
3251 THE WITNESS: I would have been? 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: Mr. Millar who knows better than all 5 of us says you were off the phone. He was there watching 6 you. 7 A: Okay, right. Well, I wouldn't have - 8 - I wouldn't have taken part in that talk other than what 9 I've said with respect to my knowledge about the kiosk. 10 I mean they're starting to get into 11 operational matters with the TRU team which was way above 12 me at my rank and my level of experience in 1995. 13 Q: Well, at 20:37 hours it says: 14 "Kent Skinner arrived. Briefed by John 15 Carson." 16 And then the very next item is: 17 "Potential of sniper in kiosk." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: So from what you just said you might 20 likely have supplied that information at that point 21 right? 22 A: No, I think that's -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He's -- at that -- at 24 that point he's on the phone. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh.
3261 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I'm -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I misunderstood 3 what you said earlier. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. Yeah. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At that point he's on 7 the phone. We went through this a few minutes ago. At 8 20:46 he's off the phone by -- at least by then because 9 he talks about the cottagers being upset and then -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- that -- there's a 12 question about the kiosk comes up at 20:46 and the 13 Witness says: 14 "I bet my life it's not there." 15 And then: 16 "KENT SKINNER: "I can get the sniper 17 team." 18 And My -- and I apologize to My Friend 19 because his earlier reference I thought he was talking 20 about 20:49, not Kent Skinner, so... 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Even Mr. Millar can 22 make a mistake but in any event -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sandler 24 said that the conversation ended at 20:45. 25
3271 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Yes, so -- so you are evidently quite 3 correct, sir, that you were still on the phone with Mr. 4 McCabe if the timing is correct which we can't be sure 5 but probably you were still on the phone with Mr. McCabe 6 so you didn't participate then but as indicated later and 7 pointed out by Mr. Millar, if you turn to page 76 -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- and is it fair to say that as we 10 read these various entries we're -- we're viewing an 11 ongoing discussion as to how to deal with this matter, 12 right? 13 A: Sure, yeah. 14 Q: And John Carson is one (1) of the 15 main participants in the discussion and other people 16 participate from time to time? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And at 20:46 there's the entry: 19 "JOHN CARSON: We have to evacuate the 20 neighbouring cottages." 21 And then: 22 "MARK WRIGHT: Spoke to cottagers 23 earlier. They are very upset." 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Now, so you would have communicated
3281 that to Mr. -- to Inspector Carson at that point? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And then you referred to your 4 recollection that you did discuss the kiosk -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- and that's supported in the next 7 entry in the scribe notes: 8 "JOHN CARSON: Are you certain if 9 someone is in kiosk is -- is any danger 10 at the corner? 11 MARK WRIGHT: I bet my life it's okay 12 there." 13 So you were -- am I correct -- you were 14 assuring Inspector Carson that there isn't that danger 15 from the kiosk? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And had there been such a danger of a 18 sniper in the kiosk that would have militated against 19 going down the road that night by the OPP right? 20 A: Not my call. It wasn't my -- it 21 would be Carson's call. 22 Q: No, no, no, but that would have been 23 a factor against going down the road if there's a sniper 24 waiting in that kiosk who could just shoot officers as 25 they came down the road, right?
3291 A: Well, I would think certainly that 2 would be a problem and I would think -- and again you 3 know my opinion and I'm making this clear that this is my 4 opinion -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- is that if there was an individual 7 with a rifle and it appeared that that was a sniper then 8 I would think that the -- the threat to public safety 9 would be even that much more because we had you know -- 10 that individual would merely have to open the kiosk door, 11 walk out with a rifle, and take a shot at an OPP officer 12 or anybody else who happened to be down there because we 13 had a checkpoint. 14 So I suspect that would be something that 15 would have to be dealt with. I don't -- I -- in my 16 opinion you would not leave an individual with a rifle in 17 a kiosk that was pointing it or acting in a -- in that 18 sort of a threatening feature because I -- I just don't 19 think that the public safety would call for you to let 20 him to continue to do that. 21 Q: But you would of dealt with him -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 23 have any evidence that there was an individual with a 24 rifle in the kiosk so I'm not sure where we're going. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, I'm trying to
3301 understand the discussion that was taking place -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- at this point. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: And in fact, sir, had you not been 7 willing to bet your life or been quite certain that there 8 was not a sniper in the -- in the kiosk, then at least 9 the approach would have been quite different? 10 A: Well, I -- I think what happens here 11 is my point to Inspector Carson -- I'm just trying to 12 provide him with information that I know. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Is that I know there's not line of 15 sight but as you'll note he takes his officers, those TRU 16 team officers, and he sends them down there in any event 17 to make sure that that person A) I think there's not a 18 line of sight and -- and if they can find out as to 19 whether or not he's armed. So I think he deals with that 20 situation. 21 Q: Let me describe the context and see 22 if you agree with me. 23 At this point there's been a decision to 24 do something as -- as you and Carson had agreed on the 25 phone, you have to deal with this matter in some way,
3311 right? 2 That decision was made prior to -- 3 A: No, I disagree, I disagree with you. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: John Carson and I are talking about a 6 situation that exists -- existed shortly after eight 7 o'clock at night. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: We are now talking about a situation 10 that's at twenty (20) -- you know, almost nine o'clock at 11 night -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And as we've -- as I've given my 14 evidence here, there is a continuing escalation of 15 movement in and around that area, as it pertains to the 16 sandy parking lot, as demonstrated by the logger tapes 17 that we've heard over the last several days. 18 19 So it's not that John Carson and I have a 20 conversation at eight o'clock at night and as a result of 21 that, he comes in and we're going to move down, based on 22 the conversation we had at eight o'clock at night, 23 because there were eight (8) -- up to eight (8) 24 individuals on the sandy parking lot. 25 Things have moved a little bit -- my
3321 position is far beyond what I saw at seven o'clock at 2 night. 3 Q: But at eight o'clock when you spoke 4 to Inspector Carson, you wanted to do something about it 5 and he agreed with you something had to be done, right? 6 I thought we went through that. 7 A: We did. I'm -- with that specific 8 incident, yes, sir, I'm agreeing -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- with you. You're -- what you've 11 suggested to me, I've interpreted your suggestion to be 12 is that as a result of the conversation we had at eight 13 o'clock at night, John Carson and I were of the opinion 14 that we needed to do something and as -- and that 15 decision was already made at eight o'clock at night and 16 therefore he's in at nine o'clock acting on what it was 17 we talked about at eight o'clock. 18 And my position is no, that's not correct. 19 You can't -- 20 Q: At what point, sir, at what point was 21 the decision made that, in fact, OPP officers were going 22 to actually do something with respect to the people in 23 the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Well, I can't -- I'm sure we'll get 25 help from somebody here, but there's a point -- my
3331 position was is that there's a point when Carson talks 2 about, well, if that's the case, we'll take, you know, 3 the four (4) teams down there and some blue shirts. 4 And that's -- 5 Q: Sorry, what page are you, sir? 6 A: I'm trying -- I'm trying to find it. 7 I think we're going to get some help. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's the last entry 9 at 20:46. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 20:46, on 11 page 76. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I see. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: So you're suggesting that was the 16 decision? 17 A: That -- that -- I -- yeah, that's my 18 -- my feeling but you'd have to ask Inspector Carson when 19 he made that particular -- 'cause that was his call to 20 make. 21 Q: But you were present? 22 A: Yeah, I was there, but it's ten (10) 23 years ago and looking at this, this is what I took to be 24 when that call was made, but again, you know, I stand to 25 be corrected with the best evidence, which would be John
3341 Carson's memory. 2 Q: Now the entry prior to that, your 3 response: 4 "I bet my life it's okay there." 5 To John Carson, about the kiosk. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And John Carson says: 8 "Okay, if that's the case, let's use 9 blue shirts." 10 A: Right. 11 Q: I would put it to you, sir, it's 12 clear from the phrasing there, that a decision to do 13 something has already been made and the question is, how 14 do we do it? 15 Do we do it with blue shirts or otherwise? 16 And when you assure him about the kiosk, 17 he says, Okay, we'll use the blue shirts. 18 A: Well again, I -- you know, it comes 19 down to my interpretation differing from yours and the 20 best person to ask, again, would be Inspector Carson, but 21 that's my understanding of when that call was made. 22 Q: Well, sir, the problem is that it's 23 ten (10) years ago. 24 A: Right. That's the problem. 25 Q: And we have -- but we do have the
3351 scribe notes at the time. 2 A: Right, right. 3 Q: And would you agree with me that you 4 would have understood when he's saying, okay, let's use 5 blue shirts, that's to do something with respect to the 6 people in the sandy parking lot, right? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is... 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's what -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is... 10 THE WITNESS: -- I'm saying, I think. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, he said that 12 about -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This isn't 14 being helpful anymore, Mr. Rosenthal. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, but then he's 16 saying that the decision wasn't made until after that to 17 do something with respect to the sandy parking lot. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. No, the 20 problem is the witness is trying to answer the question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the witness said, 23 I take this as being the -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- decision. Then Mr.
3361 Rosenthal says, well, I put it to you that the decision 2 was made before. 3 And -- and the witness -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The witness 5 comes -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- says I don't -- 7 don't agree with that -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- back and 9 thinks he -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- you're going to 11 have to ask Carson. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we had Mr. Carson 14 here for -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Don't tell 16 us how long. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- twenty (20) days. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was quite 19 a while. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But Mr. Millar 22 doesn't seem to appreciate the nature of cross- 23 examination. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 25 think he does, Mr. Rosenthal.
3371 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I have this witness 2 here -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 4 does, Mr. Rosenthal. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with respect, 6 Mr. Commissioner. Mr. Millar, may I respectfully suggest 7 we had Carson here and we have Wright here and it's ten 8 (10) years later and of course witnesses have their own 9 viewpoints ten (10) years later or ten (10) seconds 10 later. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And we have the 13 notes here, Mr. Commissioner -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: At the time. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And in my 18 respectful submission, it's entirely appropriate cross- 19 examination -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- when he says the 22 decision was made at a certain point, when we say 23 approach the corner with four (4) teams from both days, 24 for me to say in cross-examination it appears that it was 25 understood you were going down ready in the previous
3381 paragraph when you said how to do it with blue shirts. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 3 already asked the question and it is proper cross- 4 examination -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm not allowed 6 to pursue it properly because -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 8 are -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- of 10 interruptions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've gone 12 over it, you've gone back over it. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with great 14 respect -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've gone 16 over this point. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Mr. 18 Commissioner, it was no grounds for an objection and I 19 haven't been able to pursue it and I should like to 20 pursue it, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 what you mean by pursuing it. You've gone over it, 23 you've asked the questions. You've got answers. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, we're talking 25 about the crucial decision --
3391 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is a 2 critical moment. I don't want to stop you. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: A critical moment 4 to march down the road that night. There's nowhere in 5 the scribe notes which says that decision was made. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 7 realise that and you -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And that is quite 9 astonishing. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That was the key 12 decision that led to the death of -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's for 14 argument. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Dudley George. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll make 17 that argument. Now -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have a 20 witness on the stand, you're asking him questions. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That are 23 within his knowledge, and he's giving you answers. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. And may I 25 explore those answers to try to get at the truth, sir --
3401 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 2 you're -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- of this 4 important point? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You are 6 exploring them. I don't want -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to stop 9 your cross-examination but please move forward. I mean-- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I don't 12 want to go back and forward -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, sir -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And back and 15 forth. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, I -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 18 that's what's happening. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I will be making my 20 submission at the end of the day that the decision was 21 made in the phone call at the point I said -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I should like 24 to buttress that submission by further cross-examination 25 of this witness.
3411 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean at 2 eight o'clock. Are you talking about -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Eight o'clock -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the phone 5 call -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- phone between 7 the two (2) of them -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you've 9 already asked those questions. The witness has answered 10 them. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, he gave self- 12 serving answers, in my respectful submission. 13 And I have a right to pursue it with 14 respect to the other evidence that we have at the time. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, if 16 you're going to pursue it now, carry on. As long -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as you're 19 moving forward you're entitled to cross-examine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Well, sir, would you not agree then, 23 that it's apparent from the scribe notes that when John 24 Carson is asking you about if you're certain there's 25 somebody in the -- there's no one in the kiosk --
3421 A: Right. 2 Q: -- because he wants to make -- you're 3 certain there's no one in the kiosk, he's talking about 4 how you're going to approach the people in the parking 5 lot. 6 It's clear that a decision was already 7 made to do so and the question is how do you do it, and 8 when you inform him that you're quite sure, you bet your 9 life that the kiosk is okay, he says, okay, we can use 10 blue shirts. 11 Is that not a fair reading of this, sir? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, you've 13 asked the question, let's hear the answer. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, again, my answer to 16 you, sir, is that as I understand it, at the time when he 17 says, you asked me what time did I think that took place, 18 and I'm telling you, I think it takes place just what I 19 told you, after that -- after that takes place. 20 But you'd have to ask Inspector Carson as 21 to when he -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: Sir -- 25 A: -- made that call.
3431 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly 2 we've had these answers, so you're now -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 4 Commissioner, -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- going 6 over the same ground. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- my question was, 8 did I give a fair reading of the scribe notes. Is your 9 answer yes or no or can you describe your answer? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, I would disagree with 11 you, obviously, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The answer's 13 no. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: So your view is that the decision to 17 march down the road -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- was at the end of the entry for 20 20:46: 21 "At points and approach the corner 22 with the four (4) teams from both 23 days". 24 A: I -- that's my personal opinion, yes, 25 based on what I'm reading, yes.
3441 Q: Based on what you read? 2 A: Well, based on our look at the scribe 3 notes, yes. 4 Q: I see. So your opinion is based on 5 your reading of the scribe notes, not any particular 6 recollection -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 8 what you're asking him to interpret. You're putting the 9 scribe notes to him and asking him to interpret them and 10 that's what he's doing. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 12 Commissioner, that's not my view. 13 My view is I'm cross-examining this 14 witness and trying to point out to him that the scribe 15 notes contradict what he says. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, carry 17 on. I don't want to -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But -- but now he's 19 telling us all he's doing is reading the scribe notes, so 20 then I will read the scribe notes to you in my 21 submissions as well. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: With all due respect, 23 that's exactly what he asked him to do. He expressed his 24 opinion on when the decision was made, Mr. Rosenthal 25 said, ah, but the scribe notes tell a different story --
3451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 2 I thought. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: He disagrees and now 4 he's criticizing him for going to the scribe notes. 5 That's not fair, with -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That is not -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we're 9 going back and forth, Mr. Rosenthal. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The record will 11 show, Mr. -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No one wants 13 to interrupt you, Mr. Rosenthal, but you are going back 14 and forth and -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that's 17 not being helpful any more. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, with respect, 19 I'm trying to determine when the decision to march down 20 the road which resulted in the death of Dudley George -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 22 understand that -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- occurred. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's why 25 we're here. I understand that.
3461 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, and -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Everybody 3 does. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And the scribe 5 notes do not describe the decision and he's now told us 6 that the decision is reflected in the entry 7 "at points and approach the corner with 8 the four (4) teams from both days." 9 That is not credible evidence as to when 10 the decision was, in my respectful submission -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And that's why I 13 was pursuing it. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This isn't 15 the time to tell me about your argument, but -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no, but that's 17 why I was pursuing it further -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Because it's not 20 credible evidence, in my -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you 22 can't -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- respectful 24 submission. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- pursue it
3471 by asking the same question over and over again. If 2 you're moving forward, I'm not going to interrupt you. 3 If you're going back over the grounds 4 you've already gone over, I would ask you to move on. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, I 6 shall move on. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: So let's continue with the notes, 13 sir, the scribe notes. At 20:49 is the next entry: 14 "KENT SKINNER: I can get the sniper 15 team to search it out." 16 You were still present for this 17 discussion, sir? 18 A: You go back -- yes, -- 19 Q: It -- 20 A: -- I'm off the phone at 20:46 so I'm 21 -- I'm sure I'm -- 22 Q: 20:46 and then -- 23 A: -- I'm sure I'm there. 24 Q: -- just to assist you in respect to 25 my last question, the fourth entry at 20:49 is Mark
3481 Wright reports. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: So you were part of this discussion 4 still? 5 A: Yes, yes. 6 Q: And what you understood at the time I 7 would put it to you is Kent Skinner, the head of the TRU 8 team -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- saying he can get the sniper team 11 to search it out; that meant in particular with respect 12 to the kiosk and other safety issues with respect to the 13 officers going down the road, right? 14 A: Yeah. I took it to the kiosk. He 15 wanted to see if there was sight line and if there was 16 somebody armed with a rifle and they had a line of sight 17 to the sandy parking lot. 18 Q: So anyway, certainly by this point 19 whatever "waffling" to use your word Inspector Linton had 20 been doing -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: -- had been at least overruled and 23 something was going to happen correct? 24 A: Well, I don't think that's a fair 25 comment, sir. With respect is that the last thing that
3491 Inspector Linton wanted to do was take a TRU team down 2 there to effect an arrest. 3 So it wasn't as if Inspector Linton didn't 4 want to do something and -- and Carson and/or I, and I'll 5 just speak about me, wanted to do something, the waffling 6 went from let's go down there with the "B" Team with 7 helmets and K-9 and arrest to let's not do anything to 8 let's take the TRU team down there and arrest these 9 individuals. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: So I -- 12 Q: Then you told us I believe, sir, that 13 the last thing he had said in the order that you reported 14 was let's wait for the report. He didn't use the word I 15 don't believe, Constable Poole, but let's wait for the 16 report about the vehicle incident and see if we can 17 identify the people before we move right? 18 A: Well, and then yes, as I was talking 19 to Inspector Carson -- then I get on a call with 20 Inspector Carson and during that telephone conversation 21 you can clearly hear me tell Inspector Carson that quote, 22 and I believe this is exact, "he's calling out TRU." 23 So those things are happening, Linton is 24 going from once again, let's go arrest them, let's do 25 nothing, let's use the Tactical Team to effect an arrest
3501 and I've given evidence before that I didn't feel that 2 the Tactical Team was the appropriate resources to use to 3 effect arrest -- potentially arrest of those individuals 4 down there. 5 So it's not like -- you're suggesting to 6 me that Inspector Linton didn't want to do anything or he 7 wanted to wait for a statement and I wanted to do 8 something or get those guys. 9 Q: Get those fucking guys; that's what 10 you -- 11 A: Exactly. 12 Q: -- wanted to do, right? 13 A: Right. That's what I said. That's-- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- those are my words and my point 16 I'm trying to make is that Linton wanted to go down there 17 and arrest these -- the last comment that Linton made was 18 he was going to use TRU to affect an arrest and I had a 19 problem with that. 20 Q: Well, given the various scenarios 21 that were discussed and that you attributed to Inspector 22 Linton -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- would you agree that in retrospect 25 the best thing would have been to follow Inspector
3511 Linton's suggestion of waiting for that report? 2 A: No, I disagree completely. 3 Q: You disagree? Okay. We'll explore 4 that in a bit. 5 If we continue at 20:49 Kent Skinner says 6 he'll get the sniper team to search it out and John 7 Carson says: 8 "Okay. You can take care of this." 9 But then John Carson says: 10 "All we're doing is observation. We're 11 not going tactical. Let's get that 12 straight." 13 Right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Do you recall that discussion? 16 A: I don't recall -- I -- I've listened 17 to the Inquiry. I've read the -- this. I don't know if 18 it's an independent recollection or as a result of seeing 19 this but -- 20 Q: It's hard to tell ten (10) years 21 later -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- how much you recall, -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- how much you read --
3521 A: Right. I don't take issue that he 2 said that I guess if that's helpful. 3 Q: I appreciate that but what you 4 understand by this entry is that John Carson is 5 cautioning, the sniper team is well named, it consists of 6 snipers and he's saying you're not supposed to be 7 sniping, you're just supposed to be watching, right? 8 Is that a fair reading? 9 A: Well, I think they're called -- 10 they're called a Sierra Team is what I think -- actually 11 what they're called and he was sending them down there to 12 see what was going on in the kiosk and he was making it 13 clear that regardless of what those officers saw in that 14 kiosk, they were to report back and not take any action. 15 And that could mean affecting an arrest 16 from an individual who was armed with a firearm. I think 17 it's a leap to say that because they're a Sierra Team and 18 they see something is that they're going to -- they're 19 going to be a sniper team and go tactical with respect to 20 somebody in a kiosk. 21 Q: Well you said they're called the 22 'Sierra Team' but at the entry at 20:49, Kent Skinner 23 says the 'Sniper Team.' 24 A: Right. Right. 25 Q: So it is called the Sniper Team too,
3531 right. 2 A: Sure. 3 Q: And you now, as I understand your 4 most recent answer, you're indicating that it was your 5 understanding they were going down specifically to check 6 out the kiosk; is that right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now 10 4:30, Mr. Rosenthal. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if 13 there's a chance that you'll finish, we can go a little 14 longer. If there isn't then we might as well -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect -- I'm 16 sorry, sir, but there isn't a chance. I have to do some 17 more about the evening of September 6th and then I have 18 some post matters with respect -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How much 20 longer? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- to the arrest of 22 Marcia Simon and -- and so it's just not possible, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How much 24 longer do you have? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would estimate an
3541 hour and a half or so, sir. I'm told that he has the 2 strength. I -- I'll try to find the strength if you have 3 the strength, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 5 have it. You indicated originally you might be four (4) 6 hours. You've gone about three (3). So you still 7 think -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well with respect, 9 sir, I have not gone three (3). 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 11 started about 1:30, we've had a break so -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I've gone perhaps 13 two and a half, two forty or something like that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you're -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I -- I think my 16 original estimate is fairly accurate, so a total of four 17 (4). 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Well 19 in that case, we're not going to finish today. There's 20 no way that we can and seeing as how we have to -- I 21 would if there was a possibility that we could finish 22 today, I would continue. 23 But I don't think -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. I'm sorry -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that's
3551 possible. I don't think that's possible. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There are certain 3 matters I must go into with respect to my clients. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 5 we're going to adjourn now. And unfortunately, I regret 6 this, that we're going to have to break in the middle of 7 your cross-examination and continue when we return. 8 And we're not sitting tomorrow, as 9 everybody knows, and Thursday, and we won't be sitting 10 the following week. So we won't be back to complete this 11 cross-examination until March the 20th. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So may I 13 respectfully suggest then that -- on March 20th there are 14 several other Aboriginal parties to examine the witness 15 and then perhaps on March 21st -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- as soon as -- 18 whichever one of them finishes, I could resume my -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the 20 Tuesday. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: On the Tuesday the 22 21st. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would 24 be the 21st. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I do apologize
3561 to you, Officer, for the -- 2 THE WITNESS: No problem. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- my peculiar 4 schedule. It's much more difficult for me than it is for 5 you, I suppose. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 7 unfortunate, but we have to deal with that. So we're 8 going to adjourn the Hearing now until March the 20th at 9 10:30 a.m. And then we'll carry on with whoever is the 10 next cross-examiner. 11 Thank you very much. 12 13 (WITNESS RETIRES) 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 16 adjourned until Monday, March the 20th at 10:30 a.m. 17 18 --- Upon adjourning at 4:32 p.m. 19 20 Certified Correct, 21 22 23 ___________________ 24 Carol Geehan, Ms. 25