11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 7th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) 24 Maureen Smith ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Erin Tully ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 ELIZABETH JEANNETTE STEVENS CLOUD, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 97 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 116 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 138 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Susan Freeborn 163 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 169 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 201 13 14 JOSEPH CHICO RALF, Sworn 15 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 217 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 251 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 261 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 267 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-260 June 11th, 1993 letter Document No. 4 9000487 Recorded by Steve O'Brien 5 Interview held with Don Hamelan, 6 Windsor, MCSS - Daniel Henry and Liz 7 Thunder, Kettle Point. 51 8 P-261 Document 1010240 E-mail from Dan 9 Elliott, MNR - Native Liaison officer 10 September 06/'95 04:52 p.m. Re: Ipperwash 11 Status Report No. 3. 95 12 P-262 Document 90094 May 03/'94 Letter to 13 Hon. Ronald A. Irwin from E. Anthony 14 Ross re: Stoney Point I.R. 43 179 15 P-263 Document 900118 May 27/'94 letter to 16 Tony Ross from Elizabeth Thunder, Band 17 Administrator 180 18 P-264 Document 2001771 September 12/'95 19 "Trouble Overshadowing Reserve's 20 Success Story" Windsor Star 195 21 P-265 Document 2001764 September 07/'95 22 Windsor Star Article "Rebel's Without 23 A Cause" 200 24 P-266 Document 4000340 Sept. 07/'95 London Free 25 Press "Burial Ground Claim Questioned 216
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-267 Joseph Ralf's Notes 15:15 hrs, September 4 16/'95 to 19:10 hours September 19/'95 225 5 P-268 Document 600335 three Day joint 6 Investigation relating to the 7 death of Anthony Dudley George and 8 related incidents. 234 9 P-269 Receipts OPP Property Reports (3) 10 September 18/'95 242 11 P-270 "Stan" Thompson Drawing, September 12 20/'95 marked by witness Joseph 13 Ralf March 07/'05 257 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 8:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now is now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we start, 11 there's a housekeeping matter from Friday. Mr. Scullion 12 advised me that Mr. Ross, who could not -- is not here 13 this morning, had meant to mark two (2) documents that he 14 referred to and discussed with the Chief as exhibits, and 15 he neglected to do that. 16 And until we identify which ones, I would 17 suggest that perhaps we could reserve two (2) exhibit 18 numbers and then we can identify the documents and have 19 them marked either for identification or whatever once we 20 -- we find the appropriate documents. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-258, Your Honour, and 22 P-259. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
91 Two fifty-eight (258) and two fifty-nine (259). 2 Ms. Hensel...? 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, 4 Commissioner. Ms. Stevens, Elizabeth Stevens is here in 5 the room. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning. 11 MS. ELIZABETH STEVENS: Good morning. 12 13 ELIZABETH JEANNETTE STEVENS CLOUD, Sworn 14 15 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: Good morning, Ms. Stevens. 17 A: Good morning. 18 Q: We're going to start with some 19 questions about your personal and your family 20 background -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- if that's all right. You were 23 born on August 2nd, 1957? 24 A: Yes, I was. 25 Q: All right. And who are your parents?
101 A: Gordon Cloud and Peggy Cloud. 2 Q: All right. Where were they from? 3 A: Gordon was from Stoney Point and 4 Peggy was from Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Or is, I should say. 7 Q: All right. And your grandparents on 8 your father's side, who are they? 9 A: Sheldon and Jeannette Cloud from 10 Stoney Point. 11 Q: Okay. And I understand you also had 12 a great-grandmother from Stoney Point? 13 A: Lucy Cloud, who was a daughter of 14 Albert George. 15 Q: Okay. Now, you have four sons, I 16 understand? 17 A: Three (3) sons and one (2) daughter. 18 Q: Sorry. And what are their ages? 19 A: My oldest son is turning thirty (30) 20 in July. My second son is twenty-five (25) and I have 21 fourteen (14) year old twins, a boy and a girl. 22 Q: Okay. And you're married? 23 A: Yes, I'm married. 24 Q: To whom? 25 A: To Bob Stevens who is a Micmac
111 from Eskasoni, Nova Scotia. 2 Q: Okay. All right. And just to clear 3 this up right away, I understand that for some time you 4 went by the name Elizabeth Thunder? 5 A: Yes, from my first marriage. 6 Q: Okay. And when did you change -- 7 when did you stop using that name? 8 A: I stopped using it when I married 9 Robert Stevens. I had my name changed, but I never 10 changed my Band name -- my Band name of which I'm listed 11 in the Band list as Elizabeth Jeanette Cloud. 12 Q: Okay. So, what -- what year were you 13 married in? 14 A: I was married in 1999. 15 Q: 1999? 16 A: I was originally married in 1975. 17 Q: Okay. I understand that you were 18 raised at Kettle Point? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 Q: Okay. And did you leave Kettle Point 21 at any point? 22 A: Yes, I left when I was about 23 sixteen/seventeen (16/17) to live in Sioux Lookout, 24 Ontario with Roy Thunder, my first husband. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. How long did you live in
121 Sioux Lookout? 2 A: For about thirteen (13) years, twelve 3 (12) -- thirteen (13) years. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. And then where did you go? 5 A: I moved back home for nine (9) 6 months. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: And I believe it was '84/'85, and 9 then I got a job in Ottawa and I moved to Ottawa. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: And then I moved home in 1991. 12 Q: Okay. And, now, I understand that 13 you knew Dudley George? 14 A: I grew up with Dud. We're the same 15 age. 16 Q: So, you knew him well? 17 A: I knew him to see him in school all 18 the time and I hung out with him at the Base for a while 19 and I attended his last birthday party on March the 17th, 20 1995. 21 Q: Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'm going 22 to ask you, now, sorry -- a few questions about your 23 professional background. 24 A: Hmm hmm? 25 Q: I understand you're currently a Band
131 councilor? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: How long have you been a Band 4 councilor for? 5 A: This is, what, my third term. I was 6 elected last year after taking a hiatus for a few years. 7 Prior to that I was elected in 1997 for two (2) terms. 8 So, I've been on Council, probably 9 totalling about six (6) years. 10 Q: Okay. So, roughly from '97 until 11 2001? 12 A: Yes, from the time I resigned as Band 13 Manager. I was elected two (2) months after I resigned, 14 which allowed me to run and until now, this day. 15 Q: Okay. And you currently manage the 16 Sweet Grass and Sage Restaurant? 17 A: Yes, for our corporate development 18 arm of the Band. 19 Q: Okay. How long have you done that? 20 A: For about a year. 21 Q: Okay. All right. Now, I understand 22 you worked for the Chiefs of Ontario for a time? 23 A: Yes, I did, while Tom was our 24 Regional Chief. 25 Q: Okay. What -- what years?
141 A: 1997 to 2000. 2 Q: What did you do there? 3 A: I was a special assistant and I 4 carried on numerous files for the Chiefs of Ontario -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- namely economic development. 7 Q: All right. And prior to that, you'd 8 mentioned already that you were Band Administrator at 9 Kettle and Stony Point? 10 A: Yes, I was. 11 Q: Can you -- what years were you Band 12 Administrator? 13 A: From 1991 to -- I resigned in 14 September of 1997. 15 Q: All right. So, you took that 16 position on returning to Kettle Point after leaving 17 Ottawa? 18 A: That's why I moved home. I was 19 offered the job and I moved home because my -- my twins 20 were only -- less than a year old and I didn't want to 21 raise them in the city, it's too hard, so I decided to 22 move home. 23 Q: Can you tell us a little bit about 24 what a Band Administrator does? 25 A: Everything. Everything imaginable.
151 It's -- your job is your life and basically you -- you 2 look after the -- the First Nation programs. You 3 supervise the senior management staff, but not 4 necessarily staff. You set goals and objectives every 5 year. You take direction from Council, you carry out 6 Council's mandate. You do what you're told and you 7 participate and help your community. 8 Q: Okay. And you worked -- you work 9 fairly closely with chief -- Chief and Council -- 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: -- in the administration? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: All right. Prior to your being Band 14 Administrator at Kettle and Stony Point First Nations you 15 worked for the Assembly of First Nations for a time? 16 A: Yes, I did. I held two (2) positions 17 there, one (1) what I was hired for and a second which I 18 was promoted to. 19 Q: Okay. What were those two (2) 20 positions? 21 A: I was hired as director of First 22 Nations and Parliamentary Liaison, which meant that I 23 stayed on top of everything that was going on in the 24 House of Commons. I established a working relationship 25 with the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs.
161 I did all of George Erasmus' press 2 releases, set up his press conferences. I organized 3 lobbies for any chiefs and councils coming into Ottawa 4 that might come in for a week or so; set up meetings with 5 any ministers that they would like to see and numerous 6 other things, including and participating in organizing a 7 lot of the rallies that went on in Ottawa that went on 8 around Oka time. 9 Q: Okay. You mentioned George Erasmus-- 10 A: He was my boss -- 11 Q: And he was -- 12 A: -- and friend. 13 Q: -- the National Grand Chief -- 14 A: He was the National Chief at the 15 time. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And I worked for Ovide for about five 18 (5) or six (6) months after he was elected and replaced 19 George. 20 Q: Okay. Can you give us an idea of the 21 time frame of the time you were there? 22 A: Well, when I left Sioux Lookout, I 23 came home in '84, stayed at home for about seven (7) 24 months and then got the job in Ottawa and quickly moved 25 to Ottawa.
171 Q: Okay. And you stayed there until 2 1991? 3 A: Until I moved home, yes. 4 Q: All right. You mentioned that you 5 had held two (2) positions? 6 A: Oh yes, the second position which I 7 was promoted to after two and a half (2 1/2) years was a 8 secretary/treasurer of the organization, which basically 9 is your chief executive officer. 10 Q: Okay. And the timeframe for that? 11 A: Was probably the last two (2) years 12 that I worked for George before he stepped down as 13 National Chief. He wasn't defeated; he had to step 14 down -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- in recognition of our corporate 17 bylaws which only allow a National Chief to hold office 18 for two (2) weeks -- two (2) terms. 19 Q: Okay. And prior to -- you mentioned 20 that you were back at Kettle Point for about nine (9) 21 months before going to the AFM -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- where did you work before that? 24 A: I didn't work. I lived in my Mom and 25 Dad's basement and I coached hockey. I didn't work, I
181 was on unemployment. 2 Q: Okay. But before you returned to 3 Kettle Point, when you were in Sioux Lookout? 4 A: Oh, when I was in Sioux Lookout, I 5 worked for -- for about twelve (12) years Wawatay Native 6 Communications Society in Sioux Lookout -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- which we serviced forty-seven (47) 9 Nishnabe-Aski communities north of the sixtieth parallel. 10 And we set up a HF radio frequency for 11 trappers and hunters. And we set up community radio 12 stations in all of the communities and then we linked 13 them together using the TV Ontario ANIK-1 satellite to 14 bring live radio program to all of the communities in the 15 north and the Ojibway in Oji Cree and Cree languages and 16 shortly after that we set up Wawatay television which 17 still produces television which, I believe, we can see 18 some of their programs on APPN today. 19 So, I was intricately involved in setting 20 up electronic media for the people of Nishnabe-Aski but 21 it was all media in their own language, because they were 22 worried English was taking over. 23 Q: Okay. So, it sounds from what you 24 described, would you consider yourself to be fairly or 25 extensively experienced in --
191 A: There's not many like me. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: I've also worked for -- 4 Q: I'm sure that's true. 5 A: -- our tribal council on lots of 6 smaller contractual jobs, doing different things. I've 7 experience from the national right down to the local 8 level dealing with First Nations and their issues and I'm 9 well aware of everything that's gone on in the Country in 10 the lat twenty-five (25), thirty (30) years. 11 Q: And you'd say that on a politically 12 as well as an administrative level -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- for First Nations -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- organizations -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and Bands? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. All right. We're going -- I'm 21 going to ask you a few questions now about Stoney Point-- 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: -- and your family in particular. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: How old was your father, Gordon
201 Cloud, you mentioned he was from Stoney Point, how old 2 was he in 1942? 3 A: He was about ten (10). He was born 4 in 1933. He told me that he was about ten (10) when the 5 move happened that day and he told me that he was very 6 afraid that day, he was hiding under the porch. 7 Grandma Lucy was trying to chase the Army 8 guys away. She was -- had her broom out there running 9 around and it was -- from what I gather from what he told 10 me a very traumatic experience for him -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: And he used to talk about his life 13 down there. 14 Q: What did he tell you about his life? 15 A: He said it was a wonderful place to 16 grow up. He said a lot of the people down there 17 gardened, they farmed, a lot of them made their own 18 foods. They had lovely apple orchards and what not. He 19 just recalls it to be a very nice experience. The only 20 hardship for him was having to walk to Kettle Point to go 21 to school because there wasn't a school in Stoney Point. 22 Q: Okay. So, he attended school in 23 Kettle Point? 24 A: Yes, when he went. 25 Q: Did he ever talk to you about, when
211 you were younger, as a child, about the return of those 2 lands? 3 A: All the time. Even probably Grandpa 4 talked about that even more. 5 Q: And your grandfather was...? 6 A: Sheldon Cloud. 7 Q: Yeah. And what did they say? 8 A: That it was going to be great when 9 they got it back and they could move home. 10 Q: Did they believe -- were they 11 confident that they would -- that they would get the land 12 back? 13 A: Yeah, they were. 14 Q: And what did they base that belief 15 on? 16 A: On the fact that the Army told them 17 they would give it back to them some day. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And -- was your father ever 19 involved in any of the earlier efforts, say before 1990, 20 for the return of Stoney Point? 21 A: Yes, he was. 22 Q: And what did he do? 23 A: He worked with a lot of the other 24 people from Stoney Point, doing research, trying to get 25 information, trying their hardest, I guess, to get their
221 lands back. 2 Q: Okay. And in terms of any initiative 3 they had, what did they -- what did they beyond gathering 4 information? 5 A: Oh, they held meetings. They held a 6 lot of fundraising activities because they would come to 7 Ottawa. When they would come to Ottawa, they'd, a lot of 8 times, stay at my place because they couldn't afford a 9 hotel, and when they would come in and do research. So, 10 I used to have people come by every now and then and I 11 would put them up. 12 Alls I knew is they were doing research. 13 I'm too busy with my job at the AFM; fourteen (14) hour 14 day type of deal. 15 And they were involved in a lot of things 16 like; that's what I understand. Because I -- I was 17 living in Ottawa at that time and I just knew they were 18 fighting to get their land back. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And I didn't necessarily know what 21 else the community of Kettle Point was doing other -- I 22 was only aware of what my father and some of the other 23 seniors were doing from Stoney Point. 24 Q: Okay. And you mentioned people 25 travelled to Ottawa to do research; do you know where
231 they did research? 2 A: At the National Archives or they 3 would try to get into meetings at DND, with Indian 4 Affairs and what not, but a lot of it had to do with 5 research right at the National Archives. 6 Q: Okay. What was your -- can you 7 describe for us your first involvement with the Stoney 8 Point land issues? 9 A: Other than hearing what my 10 grandfather and dad talked about, probably when I moved 11 home -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- in '91 and it was an active file 14 with the community. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And what did you do in that 16 regard? 17 A: Wrote letters and things of that 18 nature. Set up meetings for the Chief in Council. Tried 19 to lobby to convince the Department of National Defence 20 to return those lands. 21 Q: Okay. Did you conduct any research? 22 A: My own research. Well, we had -- we 23 had people working for the Band. We had -- I can't 24 remember when Victor started, but -- just looking at the 25 files that were in the Band office, like, trying to
241 understand the 1981 agreement, which seemed to upset a 2 lot of people, and basically the chronology of events 3 after that 1981 agreement. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Just to abreast myself with the past 6 history of what had gone on from an administrative 7 perspective from the community -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- to get those lands returned. 10 Q: All right. And by 1981 agreement, 11 you mean? 12 A: An agreement in which the community 13 accepted a payment from the Department of National 14 Defence for it was, well, I believe it was loss of use; 15 it wasn't necessarily a purchase of the land. 16 Q: Okay. But, you weren't living in the 17 community -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- at the time of that agreement? 20 A: No. I got three hundred dollars 21 ($300), I was already married in Sachigo Lake, because I 22 was no longer a Band member in Kettle Point. Everybody 23 got a thousand dollars ($1,000), but us that had married 24 out, we were only worth three hundred (300). 25 Q: Okay. Were you aware -- prior to
251 1993, were you aware of any efforts on the part of Kettle 2 and Stony Point First Nation for the return of that land? 3 A: Just what I, like I said, just trying 4 to keep myself abreast since I'm new coming back after 5 leaving when I was sixteen (16) years old, so -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- I missed a lot -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- other than visits home twice a 10 year. 11 Q: Okay. And -- but you mentioned that 12 it was an active file in the community? 13 A: There was always -- there were always 14 people that wanted the lands back and, you know, there 15 were discussions that would happen every now and then but 16 it wasn't really -- it wasn't an important file where it 17 -- maybe it should have been an important file because 18 people were basically getting upset that they didn't see 19 a lot of things going on towards the lands back. 20 Nobody was satisfied with the 1981 payment 21 and a lot of people from -- who were descendants of the 22 Stoney Point families didn't agree with the -- with 23 accepting that deal and even after it was dealt, they 24 felt that they should have gotten more of the 25 compensation that was given out to Band members, the
261 distribution is what they called it back then, because 2 they had lost significantly more than anybody who lived 3 at Kettle Point. 4 It caused a little bit of a rift. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And you mentioned, you've 6 used the word file" a number of times; by that you mean a 7 portfolio at which Chief and Council -- 8 A: A portfolio, yes. Just a portfolio 9 and discussions at council at whatnot. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Like I would call an active file not 12 necessarily where I would have a big file sitting in 13 front of me here, but it was just something that we 14 commonly tried to address on a regular basis. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Now, we understand 16 from another -- a number of other witnesses that three 17 (3) descendants of the people at Stoney Point 18 successfully ran for Band council at Kettle and Stony 19 Point in 1992 as Stoney Pointers? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: Do you recall that? 22 A: Yes. It was right after I moved 23 home. 24 Q: Right. Can you explain the 25 significance of that?
271 A: Well, basically there was a lot of 2 discussion how back in '42 you would always have an 3 elected official from Kettle Point and one (1) from 4 Stoney, and then every other Council they would choose 5 the chief from Kettle or Stoney, at least that's what we 6 were told. 7 And so there was always representation 8 from Stoney Point on the Council and always 9 representation from Kettle Point. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: When the people were discussing when 12 the -- the move to work on the file from the perspective 13 of the Stoney Point people started to increase, well, the 14 talk about having somebody -- representation from Stoney 15 Point on the existing council also increased. 16 So, basically, there was a group of people 17 that ran under the banner of Stoney Point descendants and 18 were elected to Council that year. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: I couldn't -- I couldn't become 21 involved in the -- the elections or anything like that as 22 a non-partisan, working as a top administrator, but -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- I thought it was a good thing. 25 Q: Yeah.
281 A: I thought it was just our history 2 repeating ourselves from '42. 3 Q: Okay. Now, we have heard a great 4 deal here about various initiatives on the part of Stoney 5 Point descendants to separate from Kettle Point. In your 6 view, when did that movement to separate begin? 7 A: Probably I would think, in the 80's. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: And leading up more so into the 90's. 10 Q: What do you -- what do you attribute 11 the -- the motives for that movement to? 12 A: Dissatisfaction with the current 13 administration or Chief and Council and their efforts, 14 you know, not to get -- because we couldn't get the land 15 back. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: It was a -- it was dissension because 18 people, I think, were generally getting tired of waiting. 19 There was talk that the Military was about to close some 20 bases and so that really added fuel to the fire to really 21 work harder to try and convince the Department of 22 National Defence that if you're going to close bases, 23 close this one. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: You train cadets, that's all you do
291 there any more. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Give it back. 4 Q: Okay. You'd mentioned earlier the 5 rift that you felt arose out of the 19 -- after the 1981 6 agreement and dissatisfaction. Do you recall any of that 7 kind of tension or friction when you were growing up at 8 Kettle and Stony Point between Kettle Point people and 9 people who identified as Stoney Point people? 10 A: No, not when I was young. But, like, 11 after the 1981 agreement, after the money was -- 12 actually, the 1981 agreement wasn't even signed until, I 13 think it was 1985, so really even though they accepted an 14 agreement by vote down at the Kettle Point Park, there 15 was concern that a lot of the Stoney Point people were 16 not in favour of that vote and were over-voted by the 17 people from Kettle Point who just wanted the money. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: So, there was always dissension over 20 the payment, because the Stoney Point people, the 21 nineteen (19) families that lived down there, never 22 received anything for the loss of their land, for the 23 loss of their homes. 24 There was a minor payment made when the 25 move took place but most of those went to the moving
301 companies to pay for the moving expenses. 2 It didn't replace everything that was 3 broken in the homes. It didn't build foundations in 4 Kettle Point. You know, things -- that's what you have 5 to do to set up a home, so there was a lot of -- there 6 was dissension. And I know that just listening to my 7 father and them, they were very unhappy with the 1981 8 agreement. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. We heard from Chief 10 Bressette on -- on the topic of that dissension, we heard 11 from Chief Bressette last week that the possibility of a 12 referendum was put to the community in 1994. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: What can you tell us about that 15 initiative? 16 A: Well, when they discussed the 17 referendum, it was simply because a lot of people at the 18 time were basically saying we were totally separate 19 although, you know, there might have been two (2) land 20 bases, but I guess from the Indian Act perspective or 21 whatever, we were one (1) First Nation and I think the 22 offer for a referendum was more to appease the people who 23 were basically saying they were separate. 24 Well, if you're saying you're separate, 25 then show -- show us. And how do you show it? You go
311 out and you ask all the Band Members are we one (1) 2 community or are we two (2) separate First Nations and 3 you have them vote. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: And it gets down to the wire; whoever 6 gets the most votes wins. And the referendum was never - 7 - never went forward, but there was an offer to Maynard 8 and crew that if they wanted to separate there was a -- 9 the proper way to do that and that was for a referendum, 10 but it never did go forward. 11 It was an opportunity for them to 12 basically solidify their claim that there was a separate 13 First Nation, but they never ever -- nobody ever went 14 through with the referendum. 15 Q: Okay. And by Maynard, you mean 16 Maynard T. George? 17 A: Yeah, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Yeah, I guess that's the Maynard. I 20 know it ain't Sam, anyways., it's the other Maynard. 21 Actually, there's three (3) Maynards. It's not the one 22 on the -- 23 Q: Okay. Going back to the 1981 or 1985 24 agreement as you've termed it, I understand that was not 25 intended to compensate people for the loss of their land
321 or -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Is that your understanding? 4 A: That was my understanding from my -- 5 listening to my father and my family. It was just a 6 payment to say well, basically, you've been using it -- 7 it was rent. People called it rent back then. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: It's just rent and -- and rent is 10 still due. 11 Q: Okay. Moving now to 1993 -- around 12 that time -- we understand that a number of people moved 13 into the Army Camp, to the ranges in -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- May of 1993. Was you father among 16 that group? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did he talk to you about it? 19 A: Oh, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: He was really happy. He went out and 22 he spent hundreds buying all sorts of little things to 23 set up his camp. 24 Q: And what was the significance of 25 returning to Stoney Point -- or to the Army Camp for him?
331 A: Oh, he has home. He was finally 2 home. 3 Q: Okay. And you describe him setting 4 up a camp. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Did he also maintain a residence at 7 Kettle Point? 8 A: Oh, yes. Yes. He basically stayed 9 down there that whole summer, but he still had his home 10 in Kettle Point and then he helped a couple of my nieces 11 set up little camps down there as well, because grandpa 12 always helps the grandchildren and he's always there 13 helping them with ever -- whatever they want to do. 14 Q: Okay. And how long did he maintain 15 that camp? 16 A: I think it was right until the 17 following year, back and forth a little bit when things 18 were -- when it was -- when it was a real nice place to 19 go and visit and socialize and sit around and talk about 20 things. That's basically what they did. 21 Q: All right. And do you know why he -- 22 he left his camp there? 23 A: He left his camp because he felt that 24 things -- things were getting stolen when he wasn't 25 there, as well with my nieces, so he felt that well,
341 maybe we should come back home and see what happens after 2 that. 3 Q: Okay. Were you aware, prior to your 4 father and others going into the Army Camp in May of 1993 5 that -- that they intended to do that? 6 A: You mean set up camp? 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Or occupy or -- 10 A: I don't really know. I can't 11 remember if I knew he was going in to set up camp and 12 stay. I don't recall. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I just know when they went in it was 15 a real -- it was kind of like a happy time. 16 Q: And do you recall if the Band Kettle 17 and Stony Point First Nation had a position concerning 18 the entry of people into the Army Camp in May of 1993? 19 A: I don't really think there was much 20 of an issue at that point. 21 Q: So, by not much of an issue, you mean 22 the Band didn't take issue with the actions of the 23 people? 24 A: I don't think so. I really don't 25 think so. I can't remember the Band having issue with
351 that because a lot of us were going down there. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: I as an administrator, Council 4 members as well. 5 Q: Okay. Around that time, in May of 6 1993, do you recall initiatives by Maynard T. George and 7 others to occupy or otherwise conduct activities in 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And what can you recall about 11 that? 12 A: I believe at that time Maynard was 13 trying to -- he was issuing -- after they issued eviction 14 notices at the Base I believe he tried to issue eviction 15 notices for Ipperwash Park and the Pinery to the Ministry 16 of Natural Resources. 17 Q: Okay. And if I could just take you - 18 - we have a document, it's been previously entered as 19 Exhibit 235, P-235. Mr. Millar is just going to put that 20 up on the screen for you. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: The document will be coming up on the
361 screen so everybody can see it. 2 A: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: There it is. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Okay. That document is -- it's an e- 9 mail from Terry Humberstone (phonetic). He's described 10 as a Native Liaison Specialist with the Ministry of 11 Natural Resources. 12 A: He's just another MNR guy. 13 Q: Okay. And it describes -- appears to 14 describe a speaker-phone conversation he had with you and 15 Chief Bressette in May of 19 -- May 18th, 1993? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: You're discussing Maynard T. George's 18 notice -- eviction notice, the one that you referred to 19 earlier, to the Ministry -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- of Natural Resources. You are 22 noted there as stating that: 23 "This activity by Maynard George was 24 simply a ploy to get media attention." 25 A: Hmm hmm.
371 Q: Would you agree with that today? 2 A: Well, if you knew Maynard, Maynard 3 always had these unique way of doing things and -- but in 4 -- in a sense his heart was in the right place as well. 5 Because we -- even when we talked about the return of 6 the Stoney Point lands, it was always our plan to include 7 -- to start negotiation of return of the Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park as well as part of the whole package; not 9 only that, maybe a little bit further, even towards Port 10 Franks. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: So, there had been numerous 13 discussions about that. But, yeah, Maynard -- Maynard 14 has his way of doing things and it wasn't always 15 necessarily what the Council of the day would have agreed 16 to; but, in a roundabout way he was harmless too. 17 Q: All right. During the period 1993 to 18 1995 -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- did you visit the people who were 21 at Camp Ipperwash, the First Nations people? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Can you describe your visits? 24 A: Well some were -- a lot of it had to 25 do with personal stuff from '93 to '95.
381 Q: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 2 A: Personal visits to visit friends. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: And I don't think we really had any 5 meetings down there. Maybe we had a few -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- I'm not sure. Usually if there 8 was a meeting down there I would go with my dad and other 9 than that, in the latter part of '95 it was all personal, 10 to visit friends. 11 Q: Okay. So, you never visited in your 12 official -- during that period, you never visited in your 13 official capacity as Band Administrator? 14 A: I can't recall. I cannot recall. 15 Q: All right. And during that time and 16 during those visits, did you see other people -- people 17 from other First Nations at the Camp? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And what were they doing 20 there? 21 A: We were having big picnics and 22 cooking a lot of food and swimming and having fun. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Most of our time was spent along the 25 beach.
391 Q: Hmm hmm. During your time there, did 2 you ever see anyone interacting with military personnel? 3 A: No, no, other than when they first 4 went in and handed the notices to the guys at the 5 gatehouse in '93, no, not really. You'd see the odd army 6 guy ride by but that was basically it. 7 Q: Okay. And did you see anyone with 8 firearms at the Camp? 9 A: No, no, I never saw no firearms and-- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- I used to ride around there. I 12 always felt safe. 13 Q: All right. Did you hear any gunshots 14 while you were there? 15 A: No, no. 16 Q: We have heard from a number of other 17 witnesses and we've seen documents about an allegation in 18 1993 of a military helicopter being shot. Were you aware 19 of that allegation? 20 A: I heard about it. 21 Q: How did you hear about it? 22 A: Through the news or maybe through the 23 Band office, I'm not sure. 24 Q: And we also understand that members 25 of the Ontario Provincial Police attended at the Camp to
401 conduct a search -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- shortly afterwards. Were you 4 aware of that? 5 A: Yes, I went down there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I was down there, I just took a bunch 8 of pictures that I have at home -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: --one (1) of which Dud is in one (1) 11 of the pictures that I took. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: I was standing on this side of the 14 fence by the highway while the search was going on inside 15 the fence, but there was lots of people from the 16 community standing along the fence; curiosity and 17 whatnot. 18 Q: Okay. And what did you see going on? 19 A: The OPP with search dogs, OPP 20 cruisers, walking around the bushes, walking around the 21 little huts that people had set up and whatnot. Just 22 generally searching the whole range area. 23 Q: Okay, and in terms of the progress of 24 the search itself, was there -- did there appear to be 25 any conflict between the people who were inside the Camp
411 and members of the OPP? 2 A: No, the -- Dud and them were -- 3 everybody was kind of -- the OPP were out there doing 4 their thing and everybody was hanging around at the gate; 5 Carl George, some other people. I can't remember who all 6 was there. 7 Q: So, they were standing aside? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And did you see any 10 conduct by police officers during the search that would 11 have been destructive to property or otherwise 12 disruptive, that you would consider inappropriate? 13 A: Other than entering those homes 14 probably without the permission, well, they weren't 15 homes, like little huts and whatnot, little places, no, 16 other than entering the homes without the permission of 17 the occupants, that would be it. 18 Q: Okay. We understand that in 1993, so 19 after people had gone into the Camp, and into 1994, there 20 were ongoing negotiations with the Federal Government and 21 involving people at Kettle and Stony Point First Nations 22 as well as people who were occupying Camp Ipperwash -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: What can you tell us about your 25 record -- recollection of those negotiations?
421 A: What I recall from that time is, like 2 I said, we had heard about the Department possibly 3 closing down some bases and that was one (1) of the 4 things. There were meetings to discuss, could you not 5 close down Camp Ipperwash. 6 There was a fellow that came down from -- 7 actually, there was a couple of fellows at Council making 8 presentations, discussing whatever back then; it was 9 still a no. 10 And then another fellow -- a real -- I can 11 always remember him, because he was just -- the way he 12 acted in front of our people, I was just so hurt by it. 13 A fellow by the name of Fred Maguire came down. It was 14 at a general Band membership meeting when we were 15 talking. You know, everybody wants the land back, but it 16 was basically Fred Maguire from DND sitting there looking 17 at our people and telling our people, You will never get 18 the land back. We are never giving it back and kind of 19 like that. 20 It just floored everybody. And then I 21 can't remember how many months after that they removed 22 Fred from the files. Somebody else new stepped in and 23 then they were announcing that they were going to close 24 the Base. There were -- God, I -- I can't remember all 25 of the meetings, I'm sorry.
431 Q: That's all right. 2 A: There were so many. 3 Q: It was a long time ago. 4 A: With Chief and council, with the Band 5 members, with Government people. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It's just on and on and on. 8 Q: During 1993 and 1994, in general -- 9 or early 1994, anyway, do you recall whether the people 10 who were occupying Camp Ipperwash participated in the 11 meetings and negotiations? 12 A: I think maybe at first they did. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I can't remember. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I -- I kind of remember Carl being 17 around, but -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- I can't remember. 20 Q: All right. And at any point did you 21 observe or can you recall a -- a change in the level of 22 participation by those -- by the people at Stoney Point 23 in negotiations? 24 A: Yes, probably more closer in the 25 latter part of '94/'95 there was really no -- almost no
441 interaction. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. And are you aware of any 3 explanation for that -- that change? 4 A: I think -- personally, I think 5 because the elected Chief and Council was trying to get 6 things rolling with the return, after the Base was 7 announced that it was going to be returned, I think that 8 was in '93, or was that in '94? '93? You know, the -- 9 Q: 1994. 10 A: -- the Council of the day -- and I 11 guess it's the responsibility of any council to take over 12 the discussions and the negotiations and the people 13 living at the Base felt they should have been an equal 14 and active participation -- participant in all of that, 15 and sometimes that wasn't the case, so there was a power 16 struggle going on. 17 Q: Okay. And in -- and the result of 18 that power struggle was? 19 A: That the Stoney Point -- the people 20 living at the Base were not participating at all in any 21 discussions with the Council, but they were having their 22 own discussions with other people from the Government. 23 Q: Okay. Okay. We have heard from 24 other witnesses that in March of 1994 -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
451 A: -- the Department of National Defence 2 did advise that -- that Camp Ipperwash would be closed. 3 A: Okay, it was in March. Okay. 4 Q: Okay. And if we could get Document 5 Number 100... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: ...1003680. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: If you turn to Tab 7 of your -- the 14 binder in front of you? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: You are quoted in that article as 17 stating that: 18 "The return of the land is a dream come 19 true for all those who have fought for 20 the land since 1942. Faith has 21 prevailed. It is a triumphant time for 22 all." 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Can you describe a little bit about 25 what the mood was in the community around the time of
461 that announcement? 2 A: It was just a real happy time. 3 Everybody was happy. It didn't matter who you were or 4 anything. If I recall, I think we were at Council that 5 night, it was relatively late. People were actually 6 coming in crying, people were so happy. There was a lot 7 of tears shed. It was just a very, very happy time for 8 everybody. 9 Q: Okay. And what was the expectation 10 at that point about what would happen as a result of the 11 -- the announcement? 12 A: That negotiations would probably get 13 underway and that the land would be returned as fast as 14 possible. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But always recognizing that there was 17 an environmental danger with -- because it was an army 18 base. I don't think people thought we would be no closer 19 to where we are today -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- since they announced the return of 22 the lands. 23 Q: It would be almost twelve (12) years 24 later? 25 A: And they haven't did nothing. This
471 has to be done first. 2 Q: All right. If I could take you for a 3 moment to Exhibit 219, which is actually -- you have a 4 copy of it in the cerlox bound book. Tab 22. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Now -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- during the course of 1994 -- say 9 after -- after the announcement was made that the Camp 10 would be closed, do you recall concerns being raised at - 11 - with Chief in Council about activities at the Base? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What were the nature of those 14 concerns? 15 A: There were Band members that would 16 come in to say basically that they were stopped from 17 entering the Base. There were Band members that 18 basically said they were asked to leave the Base. 19 There was one (1) lady, I can't remember, 20 she used to be a Band member, I can't remember if she 21 still is, who said that her husband's truck, who was a 22 non-aboriginal, had been broken into and things were 23 stolen. Like, there were people coming forward with 24 things like that. 25 This discussion at Council, there was a
481 lady that lived in the subdivision up on top the hill who 2 felt that some vehicles were stolen from her property and 3 taken down to the Base. People were expressing some 4 concerns. 5 Q: Okay. And just for the record, at 6 Tab 42 there are Band Council minutes from October 4th, 7 1994. At page 2 you're described as bringing that 8 concern to Chief and Council? 9 A: Yes. Which means that I probably 10 would have got a call, yeah. 11 Q: And it's also noted there that Chief 12 and Council issued a directive that the DND Committee 13 draft a letter to the Department of National Defence 14 advising them of their responsibility for any issues that 15 arise at Camp Ipperwash until the environmental 16 assessment is completed and the land returned. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Do you recall that directive? 19 A: I don't recall it specifically but I 20 see it, well, I probably had to carry it out. 21 Q: Okay. And there's a reference there 22 to the DND Committee? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: What was that? 25 A: The DND committee, as far as I know,
491 was just a smaller working committee at the time that 2 basically took over the file made up of Council members 3 and some Band members, but it was nothing like the 4 committee that was established in '86 or whenever, I mean 5 in '96. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: Just a small working committee 8 getting things off the ground. 9 Q: Okay. And, so were you aware of or 10 did you execute that directive as a result of this -- 11 A: I probably did. 12 Q: Okay. Do you remember anything 13 happening as a result, in terms of a response from the 14 military or any difference in how things were proceeding 15 at the Army Base? 16 A: No, I can't recall. Everybody was 17 pointing the fingers at each other, it's your role, it's 18 your role, you know, passing the buck. 19 Q: All right. Okay. We've also heard a 20 great deal of evidence, partly through chief Bressette 21 last week, about issues around the delivery of social 22 assistance to people at the Army Camp during the -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- period, well, since the occupation 25 began in May of 1993.
501 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: I have here a record of a 5 conversation that involved you. I'll just... 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: This is a conversation that occurred 11 June 11th, 1993. I believe it has already been entered 12 as an exhibit -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- in these Proceedings. A letter of 15 June 11th, it would have been entered last -- last week. 16 We'll come back to it. 17 During that conversation -- you've had a 18 chance to review this document -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- earlier? During this 21 conversation, the issue of delivery of social services 22 and welfare to the occupants of the Army Camp was 23 discussed -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- with members of the Department of
511 Indian Affairs -- Indian and Northern Affairs. You were 2 participating -- a participant with, it appears, David -- 3 is that David Henry? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And who was he? 6 A: He's the social service 7 administrator; he was at the time and he still is today. 8 Q: Okay. And it appears that it's Don 9 Hamelin -- 10 A: Don Hamelin who was from the Windsor 11 officer of the Ministry of Community and Social Services. 12 Q: Okay. And Steve O'Brien appears to 13 be the -- 14 A: I can't remember who he is. 15 Q: Okay. Just for the record, that 16 wasn't marked as an exhibit and if we could do so now? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-260. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-260: June 11th, 1993 letter 20 Document No. 9000487 Recorded 21 by Steve O'Brien Interview 22 held with Don Hamelan, 23 Windsor, MCSS - Daniel Henry 24 and Liz Thunder, Kettle 25 Point.
521 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-260. Do 3 you have a copy of it there? Are you going to refer to 4 it -- 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, I do. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 7 going to refer to it in any great detail -- 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or more 10 detail? 11 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Sorry, 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: Can you describe for us, Ms. Stevens, 17 having reviewed that document what the issues were around 18 the delivery of social services at that time? 19 A: To the best of my knowledge -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- Number 1, there were some people 22 that wanted Dave to deliver welfare services to them at 23 Stoney because they couldn't get out to offices to get 24 welfare. 25 That got taken and blown to a whole full
531 blown thing about Dave wanted to take over all the 2 welfare at the Base, which was not true. Dave didn't 3 even want to go to the base. 4 Q: Dave -- David Henry? 5 A: Henry. 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: And then what happened was, on the 8 other side, that's one of the issues, on the other sides, 9 some of our Council felt that, you know, by giving people 10 free hydro and -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- things down at the Base, it 13 encouraged them to continue to stay down there and maybe 14 it was a better idea to cut those services off, which 15 would mean that we wouldn't have to deliver welfare down 16 there either. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: But, not only did it have to do with 19 welfare, there were a few instances where some of the 20 family members of people living at the Base said, How 21 come our homemakers can't go down there and provide 22 service to two (2) elderly ladies that were living at the 23 Base at the time. 24 So, it became -- that's basically -- you 25 know, does the community provide services to the people
541 living at Stoney Point or don't they? That's what, 2 basically, the overall issue turned to be. 3 Q: Okay. And, so, in your view was it a 4 question of jurisdiction or -- or were there other issues 5 at play? 6 A: It was mainly a question of 7 jurisdiction, which brought up other issues at play. 8 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge, would 9 the Chief and Council at Stoney -- or at Kettle and Stony 10 Point have been trying to use the provision of social 11 assistance benefits as leverage or a means of control? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 13 Henderson? 14 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, 15 we've gone into this far enough. It's obvious that the - 16 - the Witness is trying to be helpful by giving you a 17 perspective on this. You will have noticed that her 18 answer in response to the -- themes in play covered two 19 (2) years in one (1) sentence, going from 1993 to 1995. 20 It's not helpful at this point to get into 21 what motives might have been or who had them or anything 22 else. This didn't result in any shooting, you know. At 23 some point we've got to stop picking apart this First 24 Nation and the working -- the internal workings of its 25 members unless we're going to pull everybody and get them
551 all in here and just get on with the Inquiry, please, 2 sir? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Hensel, 4 do you want to pursue this in any more detail than you 5 already have? 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Not if Ms. Thunder 7 would be permitted to answer the question that I just 8 posed to her. There are -- this issue has been cited by 9 a number of witnesses as a source of some tension between 10 the two (2) communities. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It has. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: It's been covered 13 by a number of witnesses and discussed at some length, 14 and -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 16 objecting -- I'm sorry. 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- and Ms. -- Ms. 18 Stevens, as the Band Administrator, is possibly in -- you 19 know, one (1) of two (2) people in the best position to 20 comment on it. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your 22 objection's of this particular question or to this 23 approach? 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, I would 25 like to say both, sir, but --
561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you form 2 your objection -- 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- particularly 4 objection -- objecting to this particular question. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then 6 you have to say why. 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The -- for the 10 reasons I just stated. We've gone far enough in to this 11 issue. The question was posed as to motivation, whether, 12 you know, the jurisdictional issue was motivated by one 13 (1) factor going another way. 14 In my respectful submission, the 15 Commission has spent endless time working with dental 16 picks on any potential division between the community -- 17 one (1) group of the community, another group of the 18 community, internal dissensions here, personal affronts 19 there. 20 This is not taking us anywhere. At the 21 end of the day I hope someone will remember, right, that 22 regardless of how many divisions they were in -- there 23 were within the community, nobody within the community 24 shot each other. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right.
571 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: This Inquiry is 2 not about divisions in the community. We can only go 3 down this road so far. 4 We've gone, in my respectful submission, 5 much further than was needed to go for context and now 6 we're just, you know, feeding on remnants that -- that 7 appear to be lying around, not assisting you in preparing 8 your report. 9 It's certainly not assisting this 10 community. And if someone wants to put all this under the 11 rubric of healing, I will admire an effort to do so if 12 it's successful, because this is not healing anyone. So, 13 could we please stop? 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. Rosenthal...? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Rosenthal wants to address this issue. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 18 Commissioner. Good morning, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 morning. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm glad that, 22 a priori, Mr. Henderson indicated he would admire anyone 23 who would put this under the provision of healing, so I 24 hope you will admire me at the end of my submissions. 25 Sir, it is important for you to understand
581 to some extent the problems within the community, so that 2 you can do the kind of healing in your recommendations at 3 the end of the day that you talked about at the very 4 beginning and that hopefully will be one (1) of the very 5 important things to come out of this Inquiry. 6 And I would agree it shouldn't be 7 belaboured and belaboured and it won't be belaboured by 8 anyone, I don't believe. But, I would respectfully 9 submit that Mr. Henderson objected much too quickly and 10 this should be gone into to some extent so you can have 11 an appreciation of the problem so that you can help to 12 devise a solution. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 14 the last question that you asked was a proper one. If 15 you're not going any further, I would ask you -- 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I don't intend to 17 go any further, Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 Then we're not going to waste a lot of time, Mr. 20 Henderson. Why don't you ask the question and see if the 21 Witness can answer, and then we'll move on. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 24 Q: Do you recall the question or would 25 you like me to --
591 A: No, I don't recall the question. 2 Q: All right. What I believe I asked 3 you was whether, to your knowledge or belief, the 4 provision of social services to people occupying the Army 5 Camp was used as a means of control or leverage with 6 them? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've 8 already heard some evidence about this, Mr. Henderson. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, yes, sir, 10 you have and the evidence was that the First Nation did 11 not have jurisdiction. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Now, how could 14 they be using a jurisdiction they didn't have as 15 leverage? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Henderson -- 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The 19 correspondence speaks for itself. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Witness 21 can answer the question or not as she pleases. I mean, 22 the question's been asked, I think the Witness can answer 23 it. I don't see a valid objection. I think the question 24 is a proper one, let's have an answer. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: As you wish, sir.
601 THE WITNESS: I would have to say no 2 because the -- the ruling came from the Ministry of 3 Community and Social Services. They're basically the 4 ones who call the shots. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: It wasn't a decision, like, made by 9 Dave or anything. It was made by MCSS. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Stevens. 11 Moving now to a time in the summer of 1995 -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- when -- we've heard from a number 14 of other witnesses that people did move into the barracks 15 area, the built-up area of the Army Camp. We understand 16 that took place on July of -- July 29th of 1995. When 17 did you first learn that people had moved into the -- or 18 were you aware that people had moved into the built-up 19 area of the Army Camp, first of all? 20 A: I don't recall. Yeah. 21 Q: Yeah. At some point you became aware 22 that people had occupied the barracks area? 23 A: You mean the main part of the -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: -- yeah, well, people lived there.
611 Q: Yeah. The built-up area? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Okay. Okay. Around that time we 4 understand that a general Band meeting was held to 5 discuss events at Camp Ipperwash. If I could take you to 6 Tab 11 of you binder, which has already been entered in 7 these Proceedings as Exhibit P-43. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And it's Inquiry Document Number 10 3000374. Do you recall attending that meeting? Oh, it's 11 in your black binder, sorry, Ms. Stevens. 12 A: I'm sorry. What tab was that? 13 Q: Oh. Tab 11. 14 A: Yeah. Because that's October, yeah. 15 General Band Membership Meeting, yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Having reviewed that document and -- 19 to refresh your memory, and to the best of your 20 recollection what was the nature of the discussion that 21 took place that night? 22 A: I think people were -- they wanted -- 23 they were upset, they wanted Chief in Council to act. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: And it was a lot of discussions about
621 the concerns that people had from the community. 2 Q: Okay. And what were those concerns? 3 A: That they didn't like what was going 4 on down at Stoney Point. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And what was it that 6 they didn't like? 7 A: That they couldn't get onto the land, 8 basically. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: They were being stopped from 11 entering. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. And what was 13 the -- the response of Chief and Council? 14 A: It's, What are they supposed to do? 15 What can they do? It's DND's land still; dada dada dada. 16 Q: All right. And, if I could take you 17 to Tab 12 of your documents; that's Inquiry Document 18 Number 3000370? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: There is a release there issued by 21 the Chippewas in Kettle and Stony Point? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Do you recall if you played any role 24 in the drafting of that document? 25 A: Probably.
631 Q: Okay. 2 A: I can't recall for sure. 3 Q: And on the following page, with the 4 same Inquiry Document number, there's a letter dated 5 August 3rd, 1995 from the Kettle and Stony Point Council 6 to the Kettle and Stony Point Band members who are 7 occupying Camp Ipperwash. 8 That is Exhibit 30 -- P-30 -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- for the record. 11 A: Oh, yeah. 12 Q: Okay. That letter describes the 13 meeting that occurred two (2) days earlier. 14 "It appears [it says] the majority of 15 the community members who attended the 16 community meeting feel the non-Band 17 members occupying the Stoney Point 18 lands should be thanked for their 19 support and respectfully asked to 20 leave." 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: So, to the best of your recollection, 23 would that have been a response to the -- to the August 24 1st -- to the concerns raised at the August 1st Band 25 meeting?
641 A: Probably. 2 Q: Okay. It also refers to a statement 3 of principles for negotiating the return of the Stoney 4 Point lands? 5 A: A bunch of us worked on those. A 6 bunch of us wanted people to work together and we tried 7 to do everything in our power to get people to work 8 together. 9 Q: Mr. Millar has just clarified for me 10 the -- the press release is at Exhibit P-246, just for 11 the record, sorry. 12 I'm sorry, Ms. Stevens, you were saying? 13 A: The statement of principle is -- was 14 another idea on how to get people to work together. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: Meaning the elected Chief and Council 17 and representation from the Stoney Point group at the 18 Camp. 19 Q: Right. Okay. And in your view, at 20 that point, in August of 1995, how were those efforts 21 going? 22 A: Not too good. 23 Q: All right. Okay. And in terms of 24 the delivery of this document, do you recall or did you 25 play any role in the delivery of this document to the
651 Kettle and Stony Point Band members occupying Camp 2 Ipperwash? 3 A: If it had to go out to all Band 4 members -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- I probably did a mail out and I -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- if I'm not -- if I'm not mistaken, 9 I think I might have even had to take a bunch of copies 10 down to the Base. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I can't remember. But, I can't think 13 of how else it would have got down there. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: We've heard from other witnesses that 17 Council members delivered it or attempted to deliver it 18 to the Camp. Do you recall participating in that? 19 A: No. No. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Okay. Moving now to the -- the topic 25 of the park, Ipperwash Provincial Park.
661 To your knowledge was the land that 2 eventually became Ipperwash Provincial Park, or in your 3 view, was that part of Stoney Point lands? 4 A: Yes, it was my great-great 5 grandfather's. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. He had land there? 7 A: He had a location ticket in the area 8 of the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 9 Q: Okay. And what was his name? 10 A: Albert George. 11 Q: All right. And from the perspective 12 of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation, with respect to 13 the Park, was there any intention to include those lands 14 in negotiations for the return of lands? 15 A: Yes, I think there was every 16 intention as negotiations proceeded. 17 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. Now I understand -- 18 we will come back to that in a bit. I understand that 19 you worked extensively with officials from the Ministry 20 of National -- Natural Resources on -- on a plan to co- 21 manage the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And do you recall where that 24 plan -- what the origination -- how that came about, 25 those negotiations?
671 A: Well it was like it was trying to -- 2 I don't know how to describe it. Just trying to have a 3 good relations -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- with the existing community, what 6 we -- Indian Affairs and everybody calls the good 7 neighbour policy -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: It was trying to, you know, like, do 10 something, some great things together. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: At the same time, I'm pretty sure MNR 13 knew that at some point we were going to discuss having 14 the Ipperwash Provincial Park turned over. Maybe in the 15 co-management it could have been, like, a first step 16 towards that to basically say, Hey, you know, look, we 17 kind of know what we're talking about here, too. 18 So, I do believe it was always -- people 19 always wanted the Park back with the Stoney Point lands. 20 You can't have a big land base and a little chunk sitting 21 there that belongs to the Provincial Government. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, if I could take you to 23 Tab 8 of the black book in front of you, there are some 24 Band Council minutes there from August 2nd of 1994. For 25 the record that's Document 1011116.
681 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And at page 2 of that document -- do 4 you have it in front of you? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Okay. There's a note there in the 7 course of discussions with a meeting with MNR or the 8 Ministry of Natural Resources on the management plan, 9 quote: 10 "Liz to request a clause be added that 11 some time in the future we may be 12 reviewing the surrender of this land." 13 End quote. 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Do you recall communicating that 16 request? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what was the response at the 19 time? 20 A: Well, of course we wanted to review 21 the surrender, because like any surrender, there's always 22 a little bit of shadiness on the other party's part. So, 23 you want to review any surrender you made. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: But, you know, like -- and what were
691 the circumstances around the surrender. Quite -- quite 2 similar to the West Ipperwash Beach claim and the 3 surrender of those eighty-one (81) acres, which are 4 generally done not too far apart from each other of -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- which we feel, and to this day, 7 that our community was ripped-off, so the best interests 8 of the people were not at hand at the time by the Indian 9 agent of the time, so that's basically -- definitely 10 we're going to review that surrender and ultimately with 11 -- with the final goal being added to the lands returned 12 when Stoney Point is returned. 13 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether the 14 Ministry of Natural -- what the response of the Ministry 15 of Natural Resources was to that -- 16 A: It's a first step. 17 Q: That -- that it's a first step? 18 A: It's a first step to establishing 19 some sort of working relationship with the Natives in the 20 area or whatever, but I don't think in their minds, you 21 know, they're -- the -- the return of the Ipperwash Park 22 was totally out of -- they said it wouldn't be up them it 23 would basically be up to, you know, the higher-ups in the 24 government echelons. 25 Q: Okay. And you'd -- you'd said the
701 first step -- what was the first step? 2 A: The first step would be to actively 3 participate in the -- the management of the Ipperwash 4 Park. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And then to bring some of our 7 culture, history and traditions to the Park because there 8 so many visitors. Let them experience the rich culture 9 that we had from the area. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And employment for Band members. 12 Q: All right. And was there, in fact, 13 employment -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did -- did employment opportunities 16 come about? 17 A: It started with summer students, plus 18 my father worked for Les -- for the Pinery for twenty-two 19 (2) years. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And he was never a -- a management 22 agreement. He got a job on his own down there to feed us 23 and he worked there for about -- almost twenty-five (25) 24 years. 25 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'm going
711 to move into another area. I don't have a great deal 2 left, but I'm wondering if this might be a good time for 3 a break? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Let's 5 have a short break now. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 8 for fifteen (15) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 11:45 a.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Okay. We are going to move now, Ms. 18 Stevens, into an area surrounding the time of the 19 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 20 Do you recall how you learned -- we've 21 heard that the -- that people did go into the Park on 22 September 4th, 1995, do you recall how you first learned 23 that people had gone into the Park? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: Okay. Were you aware that there were
721 plans to go into the Park prior to doing so? 2 A: I don't recall. I probably heard it 3 at the Band office. I was probably there, working. 4 Q: It was a long time ago and you 5 needn't feel badly for not having a precise memory for 6 that time period. 7 Prior to September of 1995 were you aware 8 of the presence of burial grounds in the Park? 9 A: No. But it was when we talked to MNR 10 about a co-management agreement, we talked about having 11 experts go in and basically take a look at the land and 12 catalogue everything that would possibly be on the land 13 and whatnot. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And did -- did that 15 go ahead or was it still in the works in 1995? 16 A: The co-management agreement was still 17 in the works. 18 Q: Okay. Okay. So, at some point after 19 people went into the Park on September 4th, 1995, you -- 20 did you become aware that people were claiming there were 21 burial grounds in the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: How did you become aware? 24 A: I don't know. Somehow Tom knew. 25 Q: Okay.
731 A: And what we attempted to do at that 2 point was verify that there were in fact burial grounds 3 in the Park. 4 Q: How did you do that? 5 A: By calling the Minister of Indian and 6 Northern Affairs and the Province of Ontario to verify if 7 they had any documents available. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was their response 9 at the time? 10 A: We had to -- they were going to get 11 back to us. 12 Q: Okay. All right. Did you do 13 anything else in terms of speaking of community members 14 or... 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Okay. And once people had gone into 17 the Park, September 4th and September 5th, the first and 18 second day of that occupation, what was going on in the 19 Band office? 20 A: A lot of calls. A lot of calls 21 coming in for the Chief from everybody. 22 Q: Okay. And who were those calls from, 23 if you can be -- recall? 24 A: The OPP, the Ministry, ONAS 25 (phonetc), Indian Affairs, Band members, other Native
741 leaders. 2 Q: Okay. And when you said the 3 Ministry, you meant Ministry of Natural Resources? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Was there concern in the Band 6 office among Chief and Council or anyone else about 7 developments at the Park; a high level of concern or... 8 A: I would say a high level of concern 9 because there were OPP officers all over the area and a 10 lot of Band members were scared. 11 Q: Okay. And did you observe any of 12 these OPP officers yourself? 13 A: When I would ride around, yes, there 14 would seem to be a lot, especially heading towards 15 Ravenswood and past that way. 16 Q: Okay. All right. You mentioned that 17 there were many calls coming into the Band office from a 18 wide array of people; did you end up fielding any of 19 those calls yourself? 20 A: I can't recall. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: But if I did it would have been 23 because Tom wasn't there. 24 Q: Okay. And, in general, when you were 25 dealing with people outside the Band, either Government
751 officials or -- did you also deal with media calls? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was that when the Chief was 4 unavailable? 5 A: Generally, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And when you did so, were you 7 expressing, either with media or with Government, were 8 you expressing your personal views? 9 A: No. No. My personal views were 10 different. 11 Q: Okay. And whatever you did 12 communicate to the media or various Government officials, 13 where did you get the content of those messages or 14 communications? 15 A: From the Chief or Council or both. 16 Q: Okay. Were you ever in a position 17 where you were communicating messages that you weren't -- 18 personally, you didn't believe -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- or share? Views that you didn't 21 share? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. We will come back to that. 24 There are a few specific communications I will refer you 25 to. But, for the time being if -- we'll move on to the
761 evening of September 6th. 2 Do you recall where you were on September 3 6th? 4 A: Probably at work and then I think I 5 got home a little late that day, probably around 8:00- 6 ish, 8:30, from the Band office, because it's just a fury 7 of activity. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. All right. And so 9 you did return home in the evening? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And when you left the Band office, 12 were you aware that anything -- that matters were 13 progressing and -- or that there had been any significant 14 developments at that time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What were those significant 17 developments? 18 A: That there was OPP right at the gate 19 of Ipperwash Park. 20 Q: Okay. And was that a matter of 21 concern in the Band office? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And can you tell us why? 24 A: The unknown. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. All right.
771 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And how did you learn that the OPP 4 were at the gate of Ipperwash Park? 5 A: Probably from being in the Band 6 office and I believe I even drove down there myself one 7 time during that day. 8 Q: On September 6th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. What time of day would you say 11 you went down there? 12 A: I can't recall. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I just know we knew there were a lot 15 of OPP and it was kind of a scary day. 16 Q: All right. And when you were down at 17 the Park, what did you see? 18 A: Just a lot of cars -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- people, hmm hmm... 21 Q: Inside the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You're referring to -- did you ever 24 go into the Park yourself? 25 A: No, no.
781 Q: Okay. And you observed police 2 officers in the area? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Where were they? 5 A: Well, there was police -- there was 6 just -- you could go any place and you're bound to see a 7 police cruiser at that time. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Didn't matter where you went. 10 Q: Did you speak to any of the police 11 officers? 12 A: No, no. 13 Q: All right. And -- 14 A: Other than the calls that came into 15 Tom. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: To -- because generally Tom would sit 18 in my office and then I was basically his receptionist. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 21 to describe that motion? 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: For the record 23 she, the Witness is -- 24 THE WITNESS: Hello, this is Tom -- 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- appears to be--
791 THE WITNESS: Tom's right here, here Tom, 2 yes. 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- appears to be 4 handing over an invisible phone -- 5 THE WITNESS: Phone, yeah. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- to Chief 7 Bressette. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Okay. And did -- when you were down 11 at the Park did you see any interactions between people 12 inside the Park and police? 13 A: I think I just drove by like it 14 happened ten (10) seconds and you're round the corner and 15 you're up the other way. 16 Q: Okay. So, you didn't stop to speak 17 to anyone -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- there? All right. 20 A: Hmm hmm. Just curiosity, just like 21 everybody else when -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Just like when the fire truck takes 24 off, there's going to be fifteen (15) cars behind it. 25 Q: Okay. Now, on the evening of
801 September 6th, were you stopped at any checkpoints on 2 your way to or from the Park? 3 A: No, not until after. 4 Q: Okay. And we'll come to that. When 5 did you first learn that things -- that there had been a 6 conflict between the people in the Park and OPP officers 7 at the Park? 8 A: One of my friends called me, because 9 she had just received a call from somebody at the 10 gatehouse. 11 Q: Okay, who was that? 12 A: Jessie, Jessie George called me. 13 She's my neighbour, she lives two (2) doors down. That's 14 Bernard's sister. 15 She called me and was screaming at me, 16 saying somebody got shot and she said Burger had just 17 called her from the gatehouse down there somewhere, and 18 the line had went dead. 19 Burger would be her half-brother, Stacey 20 George. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Do you recall what 22 time that -- you received that telephone call? 23 A: It had to be -- it was already dark. 24 It had to be around 10ish. 25 Q: All right.
811 A: Between quarter to 10:00 and 10:30, 2 ten (10) to 10:00, twenty (20) after, 3 Q: Hmm hmm. And do you recall anything 4 else about what Stacey George would have -- or what Jesse 5 George told you about what Stacey had told her? 6 A: That somebody had been shot. That 7 the police were attacking and that was it. She just 8 said, Burger called, somebody's been shot, the police 9 were attacking. And she said, Liz, the line went dead, 10 do something, what can you do, blah blah, so... 11 Q: And what did -- what did you do as a 12 result of that phone call? 13 A: The first thing I tried to do was 14 call any Council member that I could get a hold of, and I 15 don't even remember getting a hold of anybody that night, 16 and then I started calling every after desk editor that I 17 could get a hold of in Toronto or London or Sarnia to get 18 a third party in there as soon as possible. 19 Q: And did the -- did the editors or 20 whoever answered the phone at the news desk indicate that 21 people would be travelling to the area? 22 A: I think I got a hold of three (3) -- 23 around three (3). It wasn't many, but I tried probably 24 any number that I could get a hold of. Faye, our 25 secretary at the Band Office, I had her develop a book
821 just for media contacts and things like that. I had that 2 book with me and I started going through that book. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And I believe there were a few that 5 sounded like they were generally -- showed a bit of an 6 interest and I think there might have been one (1) out of 7 London that said they would send somebody down right 8 away. 9 Q: Okay. And do you recall which Band 10 councilors you would have been able to reach? 11 A: I don't know if I got a hold of Brian 12 and Bob, I can't recall. 13 Q: Brian -- 14 A: Menaige and Bob Bressette. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I can't recall. 17 Q: Do you recall speaking to Chief 18 Bressette? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. All right. And what did you 21 do next? 22 A: Cried. And we all gathered -- I 23 can't remember how it happened, though. We gathered up 24 at the -- where Highway 21 meets 7. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
831 A: There was -- people just started 2 going there and that's what we did. So, we stood around, 3 the next thing I knew we were building a great big 4 roadblock on Highway 21. 5 Q: Okay. And what were people doing at 6 that roadblock? 7 A: Mulling around. What could we do? 8 People wanted to march in -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- but we didn't know. It was 11 totally dark -- dark that night. People were scared. We 12 didn't know what was going on down there, so we -- we 13 built a roadblock and we started stopping traffic. 14 Q: Okay. And why was it important to 15 stop traffic? 16 A: Because they weren't letting us in. 17 They weren't -- people were coming back saying they can't 18 get through. I know some people did try to drive down 19 there and people just couldn't get in. Nobody knew what 20 was going on. 21 Q: Okay. Were you aware that Bonnie 22 Bressette, at some point in the evening or early in the 23 morning hours was able to drive through to reach the 24 occupants and assisted in taking some women and children 25 out of the Park -- or out of the Camp?
841 A: I think Bonnie told me about that 2 after. 3 Q: Okay. You weren't aware of it at the 4 time? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Were you present at the Points 7 Preference Mall when Chief Bressette spoke to the people 8 assembled there? 9 A: Probably. I don't recall. 10 Q: And did you spend time in front of 11 the mall, yourself, there? 12 A: Yes, that night. 13 Q: And what were people doing there? 14 A: Mulling around and talking and didn't 15 know what to do. 16 Q: And when did you first become aware 17 that people had been injured and -- and killed -- in 18 fact, killed at the Park? 19 A: Probably when we were mulling around, 20 that somebody had actually died. 21 Q: Did you know who that was? 22 A: And that would be -- I don't think I 23 knew at the time. 24 Q: All right. And when did you find out 25 that Dudley George had passed away?
851 A: Probably the following morning. 2 Q: Do you recall how you found out? 3 A: I think we all find out, all the 4 people that were at that fire on the highway. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. 6 A: I can't remember if it was Tom that 7 came through after he went to try and find out where they 8 took Bernard or not. 9 Q: Okay. And about what time would -- 10 would that have been, if you -- as best you can recall? 11 A: I don't know. It had to be daylight 12 out by then. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. All right. And -- 14 I'm sorry, please continue. 15 A: I know we -- we were -- we were 16 really worried about Bernard because his daughter was -- 17 she was over at our house that night. 18 Q: And Bernard, you mean Bernard George? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: We had thought maybe it might have 22 been Bernard because his daughter didn't even know where 23 he was, and his wife, or nobody, so... 24 Q: Okay. And when did you find out 25 where Bernard George was?
861 A: I believe it was the next day when 2 Tom said, I think he was taken to Forest. I'm not sure. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I can't remember. It was just a big 5 jumble after that. 6 Q: Okay. Did you participate in the 7 march to Camp Ipperwash from Kettle Point on the morning 8 of September 7th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And what can you tell us about 11 that? 12 A: There seemed to be, like, there was a 13 lot of people. I believe I only went as far as 14 Ravenswood and went back to the Band office. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: I can't remember anything else. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether you saw 18 any police officers along the way? 19 A: In Ravenswood -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- in Ravenswood that was that 22 ambulance sitting there on the corner and I think there 23 might have been a police cruiser there as well. There 24 had to be because they would -- they didn't want people 25 to go past Ravenswood.
871 Q: Okay. And did people, in fact, go 2 past Ravenswood? 3 A: I'm pretty sure they did. 4 Q: All right. And you mentioned it was 5 at that point that you turned back? 6 A: Probably. I don't remember going -- 7 marching right down to the Camp. I can't really 8 remember. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I was -- would have been awake for 11 two (2) days. Not only that, we just had a -- our school 12 had just opened, our $3 million school had opened that 13 Tuesday. So we had a celebration, like a grand opening 14 of the school. There was lots of things going on and -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- it was the first time our 17 community had a school -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: -- ever, you know. So, it was a big 20 thing in our community as well going on at that time too. 21 Q: So, you were very busy in the time 22 leading up? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Okay. What can you tell us about 25 what you can recall on the morning of September 7th, when
881 you returned to the Band -- or to Kettle and Stony Point? 2 A: People were calling from different 3 parts of the Country saying they were coming in and 4 whatnot. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: And I can't recall any -- it's just a 7 blur. 8 Q: Did you attend a Council meeting -- 9 any Council meetings on September 7th? 10 A: I probably did, yeah. 11 Q: But you can't recall -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- precisely at this point? Do you 14 recall Chiefs from the area and as well as the National 15 Grand Chief, Ovide Mercredi, attending -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- on that day? 18 A: Yeah. I think they all flew in, 19 like, almost the next day. There were people coming in, 20 including Government officials and whatnot. 21 Q: Okay. All right. Did you -- what 22 was your first, to the best of your recollection, the 23 first time you went to the Army Camp after the evening of 24 September 6th? 25 A: I can't remember when I actually went
891 there, but the next time I went there was to visit 2 Dudley's sister. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. Would that have been -- 4 approximately how long after his death? 5 A: Months. Like -- 6 Q: Months. Okay. During the days 7 immediately after you didn't visit the Army Camp, the 8 barracks? 9 A: For the funeral. 10 Q: That was the first time you'd been 11 there? 12 A: Well, for the funeral, yes -- 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: -- and for the wakes. 15 Q: Okay. In the time leading up to the 16 funeral? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: We understand that funeral took place 19 on September 11th, 1995? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: All right. So, you did attend at -- 22 at the Camp -- did you attend at -- on any day prior to 23 September 11th? 24 A: Yes, for the -- for the services. 25 Q: And what was -- what was the mood of
901 the people who were at the Army Camp during that period? 2 A: I can't remember. It was -- it was a 3 wake. I mean, and you know, services. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. And you did attend the 5 funeral of Dudley George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. I'm almost finished, Ms. 8 Stevens. I just have a couple more questions. 9 During the period immediately before the 10 evening of September 6th, do you recall MNR officials 11 contacting either yourself or Chief Bressette, seeking a 12 written statement concerning the situation in the Park 13 and the Band's position about that -- that situation? 14 A: I believe they wanted something on 15 paper. 16 Q: Okay. If I could just take you -- 17 I've given you a document over the break; it's an e-mail 18 dated September the 6th, 1995. You have that in front of 19 you? 20 For the record, that's Document Number 21 1010240. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And that e-mail notes it's from a Dan
911 Elliott who's a Native liaison officer with the Ministry 2 of Natural Resources. It's five o'clock, the evening of 3 September 6th, 1995. He notes that: 4 "Contact was made with Elizabeth 5 Thunder, the Band Administrator for 6 Kettle and Stony Point today at 09:30 7 hours. The Chief is not supporting the 8 Native occupants at Ipperwash Park. A 9 position statement from Chief Tom 10 Bressette has been requested and a 11 response is expected tomorrow. 12 Chief Bressette has tried to contact 13 the occupants of the Park without 14 success and he is being ignored by the 15 occupants of the Park and the Military 16 Base." 17 Do you recall making those comments to -- 18 to Mr. Elliott? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I don't recall. I -- 23 Q: You can't recall this specific... 24 A: I can't recall. 25 Q: All right.
921 A: But I recall the -- when we tried to 2 make contact with the occupants of the Park through that 3 letter -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- that was taken down there. 6 Q: Okay. I believe we covered earlier 7 that the letter was taken when people were in the Camp 8 prior to their occupation of the Park. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Can you recall other efforts to -- by 11 the Chief to communicate with the people inside the Park 12 after September 4th? 13 A: No, I can't recall. 14 Q: Okay. And I know that you can't 15 recall, or you stated that you can't recall this 16 particular conversation, you'd spoken a bit before about 17 your role as a spokesperson for Chief and Council. 18 Under circumstances such as these, you 19 would have been communicating the chief's position -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- rather than your own? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Okay. And did you have any 24 conversations with Chief Bressette concerning him 25 providing a written position statement to the Ministry of
931 Natural Resources? 2 A: I can't recall, but we probably did. 3 I'm -- they probably asked for something on paper to make 4 it whatever, to see -- 5 Q: Yeah, do you recall -- 6 A: -- if a -- 7 Q: -- if such a statement was ever 8 provided to the -- 9 A: I can't recall -- 10 Q: -- Minister? Yeah 11 A: I don't -- I cannot recall. 12 Q: Okay. Were you aware, on the evening 13 of September 6th, 1995, that the chief had gone on a 14 radio station in Sarnia? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: How were you -- how were you made 17 aware of that? 18 A: I think I remember that -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- because I listen to the show. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: I'm pretty sure that Tom did -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- you know, he was in contact with 25 the media --
941 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- but I can't remember the 3 specifics. I think it had to do with -- he kind of knew 4 what was -- I don't know, really. I really don't know. 5 It was like -- because it, you know, even 6 though people didn't see eye-to-eye there you're still 7 always concern that somebody might get hurt. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And can you recall 9 listening to that particular broadcast when he was called 10 in to -- I understand from Chief Bressette that it was 11 CHOK radio -- C-H-O-K? 12 A: I can't recall. 13 Q: Okay. All right. Thank you, 14 Stevens. Those are all my questions. 15 Thank you, Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much, Ms. Hensel. 18 Those who wish to cross-examine would you 19 please help me out. 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Just one (1) 21 housekeeping matter. 22 Mr. Scullion has kindly point out that I 23 referred to the e-mail from Dan Elliott, which is Inquiry 24 Document Number 1010240. If we could make that an 25 exhibit?
951 THE REGISTRAR: P-261. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two sixty- 3 one (261). 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-261: Document 1010240 E-mail from 6 Dan Elliott, MNR - Native 7 Liaison officer September 8 06/'95 04:52 p.m. Re: 9 Ipperwash Status Report No. 10 3. 11 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? Now, 14 any other housekeeping matters, Ms. Hensel? 15 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: No, thank, you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 17 Klippenstein, Mr. Rosenthal. Any others? Mr. Scullion, 18 Mr. Downard, Ms. Jones, and from the Province. Is that 19 it? 20 I just want to make sure. Okay. Let's 21 get an idea of where we are. Let me just -- Mr. 22 Klippenstien...? 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About three- 24 quarters (3/4) of an hour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr.
961 Rosenthal...? 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The same, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three- 4 quarters (3/4) of an hour and Mr. Scullion? 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Right now, I'm 6 looking at half an hour depending on what My Friends go 7 through, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 9 Freeborn...? 10 MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: About ten (10) 11 minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 13 minutes. 14 Ms. Jones...? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Twenty (20) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 17 minutes? 18 And Mr. Downard...? 19 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Half an hour subject 20 to abridgement. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Mr. 22 Henderson, do you have any questions? Would you have any 23 questions? 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I've got -- Ms. 25 Stevens is a councilor and our Client, so --
971 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, so you 2 may have at the end? 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- I may have at 4 the end, but I'm unable to estimate right now. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll wait 6 and see. You'll wait and see. 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Will -- will do 8 that, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Okay. Let's get going. Thank you all very much. Let's 11 start. 12 Mr. Klippenstein...? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Ms. Stevens. My name 18 is Murray Klippenstein and I'm one (1) of the legal 19 counsel for the Estate of Dudley George and for Maynard 20 S. George, as opposed to Maynard T. George and some of 21 Sam's brothers and Dudley's brothers and sisters. 22 I'd -- I'd like to ask you a number of 23 questions for a while about the possibility that treaty 24 rights have a role in the story of the Park occupation 25 and Dudley's death. And first I'd like to ask some
981 background questions about your knowledge of treaties in 2 general. 3 I think you've said that you worked for 4 the Assembly of First Nations for approximately 1985 to 5 1991; is that right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And part of that time was as a 8 parliamentary liaison? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then part of that time was as 11 secretary-treasurer of the entire organization? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Would I be right in -- in guessing 14 that during that period you ended up dealing with some 15 First Nation issues that involved treaties and treaty 16 rights? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And during that time, you said you 19 were working with George Erasmus, I -- I gather? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And he was National Chief? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you said he was -- you were his 24 assistant and also a friend; is that right? 25 A: Yes.
991 Q: And after his period as National 2 Chief, he went on to co-chair a Royal Commission; is that 3 right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that was the Royal Commission on 6 Aboriginal Affairs that -- that went on for a number of 7 years until there was a very major report; is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And after your time at the AFN you 10 were the Band Administrator for Kettle Point for a number 11 of years? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then you became Executive 14 Assistant to -- to Tom Bressette, who was then the -- the 15 Ontario Regional Chief; is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And essentially the spokes-chief for 18 the -- all of Ontario; is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Would it be fair to say that during 21 your time as executive assistant to the Ontario Chief you 22 also ended up dealing with some issues involving 23 treaties? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I believe when your term at the
1001 AFN began in 1985, that would have been just a few years 2 after the Constitution of Canada was amended to include 3 protection of treaty rights; is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So, is it fair to say at that time, 6 in the years after 1982, the constitutional protection of 7 treaty rights was -- was very much an issue that was 8 being discussed; is that fair? 9 A: At Chiefs' meetings, yes. 10 Q: Yes. Is it -- is it fair to describe 11 your experience and accumulated knowledge on some of 12 these issues as involving actually a great deal of 13 knowledge in terms of the history, and the importance, 14 and the related issues, and even some of the legal and 15 constitutional aspects of treaty rights; is that fair? 16 A: That's fair. 17 Q: Yeah. And would you agree with me 18 that treaties in general are a fundamental part of the 19 relationship between First Nations people and the Crown 20 in Canada? 21 A: It is the relationship. 22 Q: Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of 23 questions about the possible relevance and possible 24 importance of treaty rights and treaty issues in relation 25 to the occupation of Ipperwash Park and the death of
1011 Dudley George. 2 We've heard evidence from an expert who 3 testified earlier at this Inquiry that in 1827 your 4 people entered into a treaty with the Crown. 5 Do you accept or agree with that -- that 6 basic proposition? 7 A: It was -- they were indentures. 8 Q: And is -- is that, in your mind, a 9 version of a treaty or a different -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It's a type of treaty? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And would you agree with me that in 14 that agreement in 1927 the Crown made some promises to 15 your people; is that fair? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: We've heard evidence that in that 18 Treaty certain of your people's ancestral lands were 19 confirmed by the Crown as being unceded reserves that 20 would remain in the possession of your people for ever -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- can you agree with that? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: You agree with that. And would you 25 agree with me that about the Kettle Point and Stony Point
1021 reserves were such -- were reserves that were confirmed 2 or guaranteed to your people by that treaty? 3 A: Land set aside. 4 Q: Yes. We've heard evidence that the 5 treaty said about those two (2) reserves, that those 6 reserves were, quote: 7 "Expressly reserved to the said Nation 8 of Indians and their posterity at all 9 times hereafter for their own exclusive 10 use and enjoyment." End of quote. 11 Do you -- do you agree with that or accept 12 that as one (1) of the Treaty promises? 13 A: I believe that's in there, hmm hmm. 14 Q: And do you -- we've heard evidence 15 that the lands that later became Ipperwash Park were part 16 of the lands that were included in the guarantee of -- of 17 that original Stoney Point Reserve; is that your 18 understanding? 19 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 20 Q: Yes? And the -- the Witness who 21 testified earlier from a historical point of view agreed 22 that the -- the commitment in that treaty was that those 23 lands, including the aboriginal Stoney Point lands, 24 including what later became the Ipperwash Park lands, 25 would be your people's in perpetuity?
1031 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Is -- is that your understanding? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Would you -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Would you agree with me that that's 7 an important background fact when we consider the 8 occupation of the Park and the death of Dudley George in 9 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, we've then heard some evidence 12 about how the lands that became Ipperwash Park were 13 allegedly surrendered by your people -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- even though they'd been originally 16 treaty guaranteed lands and I believe in your evidence 17 you made some reference to -- to the surrender of those 18 lands. And you said that your community was ripped off 19 when those treaty lands were surrendered; is that right? 20 A: It's my understanding or at least 21 what I know from our oral history that the surrender of 22 the Ipperwash and the surrender of the eighty-one (81) 23 acres in the community of Kettle Point were not to the 24 best interests of the people. 25 Q: Thank you. In your years as -- as a
1041 senior political representative at the -- at the 2 Provincial level and the National level, you mentioned -- 3 you agreed that you'd had occasion to understand and deal 4 with some of the history of treaties; is that right? 5 A: Understanding some of the treaties, 6 yes. 7 Q: And also would that include an 8 understanding of some of the nature of the relationship 9 between First Nations peoples and the Crown in the early 10 part of the 1900's? Would that be something you would 11 have come to understand something about in a general way? 12 A: In a general way. 13 Q: Now, we've heard some evidence from 14 the expert who testified about the history of the treaty 15 in this area about the context of Government and First 16 Nation relations and history about the time of the 17 surrender in the 20's -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- in this area. Now, I'm going to 20 describe to you some of the evidence we've heard from 21 that expert and I want to see if you, from your years of 22 experience in the National Chief's office and the Ontario 23 Chief's office, can comment. 24 The expert testified that in the early 25 part of the 1900's including at the time of the 1928
1051 surrender, one (1) of the government's goals was a long 2 term agenda that had, as a fundamental core, the concept 3 of assimilation and disappearance, as distinct Indian 4 peoples. 5 from your experience, can you comment on 6 whether you accept or agree with that evidence? 7 A: I'm sorry, could you just repeat that 8 one more time? 9 Q: Sure -- sure. In the early part of 10 the 1900's, including at the times of the 1928 surrender 11 one -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- of the Government's goals was a -- 14 was a long term agenda that has a fundamental core, the 15 concept of assimilation and disappearance as distinct 16 Indian people. 17 Would you agree with that? 18 A: Yes, I would. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: That expert also made some other 23 comments about surrenders of treaty land in the -- in the 24 area in the time period we're talking about and she said 25 that when you're dealing with Indian surrenders in this
1061 period of time, the people were under extreme pressure 2 and influence from Indian agents -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: From your experience in at the 5 National and Ontario levels, can you comment on whether 6 you can agree with or accept that -- with that comment? 7 A: My understanding would be that our 8 people often relied on the Indian agent to act on their 9 behalf with the Crown. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. And it is your 11 understanding that that's sometimes resulted in pressure 12 on Indian people to surrender their treaty lands? 13 A: Yes. It was -- I would say the 14 majority of cases, possibly all of them, were never in 15 favour of the people. 16 Q: The Witness who testified also said 17 that during this time period, it was very, very difficult 18 for any First Nation to successfully resist pressure to 19 surrender their land. 20 A: In the beginning of the 20's? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I would think so. They would have 23 had a lot of economic issues that they would have been 24 dealing with at the time. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
1071 A: Like our people, their votes were 2 bought for five dollars ($5) in the West Ipperwash beach 3 surrender. Five dollars ($5) was a lot of money back 4 then. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: In your many years of dealing with 9 various officials and people from -- from the Government 10 about the Stoney Point Reserve lands and the Ipperwash 11 Park lands, did anyone from the Provincial Government or 12 the Federal Government or DND or the OPP ever mention the 13 1827 treaty in discussions that you can recall? 14 A: No, I believe it was always us that 15 brought it up. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And during those years, was 17 there anyone from the Provincial Government or the 18 Federal Government or DND or the OPP who ever referred to 19 the 1827 treaty in any document that you know? 20 A: I don't recall. I can't remember 21 anything. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I can't ever remember getting a 24 letter into the Band Office that said, Oh, yeah, and in 25 regards to your treaty, you know. Yeah.
1081 Q: And is it fair to say that all these 2 various Government officials and departments and 3 authorities and law enforcement bodies did not seem to 4 have any appreciation that there was a possible important 5 issue of treaty rights behind the -- the claims about 6 Stoney Point land? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Would -- would you agree with me that 9 the confrontation and violence that surrounded the death 10 of Dudley George would not have happened if the Crown had 11 honoured its treaty commitments and had recognized the 12 original Stoney Point Reserve as Native lands in 13 perpetuity? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Hensel...? 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: It's -- given the 17 -- the temporal disconnect between the two (2) events and 18 the time period that Mr. Klippenstein is referring to, it 19 would be very difficult, in my view, for this Witness to 20 answer that question with any certainty. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 22 we've already been through this before with other 23 witnesses who may have contributed to it, I suspect, but 24 there may be lots of other things, too. There's no 25 direct -- I don't think this Witness can do that.
1091 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: With -- with 2 respect, the mere fact that the Treaty I've raised is in 3 1827 and the death of Dudley George was in 1995 -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: '95. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- and that 6 those are widely separated, in my submission, may be very 7 essential -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- for us to 10 bridge and understand. In my submission, there's plenty 11 of evidence now from many witnesses, including this 12 Witness, that treaty rights may be very important in 13 understanding this. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 15 disagree with that. I don't think that's the objection. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, my -- my 17 question, then, has been directed to this Witness who has 18 a great deal of understanding about treaty rights and 19 about the particular -- particular situation here, 20 whether respect for those treaty rights would have 21 avoided what she saw happen with her own eyes in 1995. 22 I really respectfully submit that it -- it 23 is an enormous gap in the Inquiry's Proceedings if this 24 qualified Witness cannot try to link the two (2). 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to
1101 ask you -- put the question again. I want to hear the 2 question again. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. My 4 question was -- and I'm asking this to the Witness as 5 someone who has a great deal of experience, not only with 6 treaty rights, historically and in modern times and 7 legally and constitutionally, but also has a tremendous 8 amount of experience about the history of the lands at 9 issue here and the actual occupation itself. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 11 understand. Put the question. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Would you 13 agree with me that the confrontation and violence 14 surrounding the death of Dudley George would not have 15 happened if the Crown had honoured its treaty commitments 16 to recognize the original Stoney Point Reserve as Native 17 lands in perpetuity? 18 I respectfully suggest that's a very fair 19 question and a very important question. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 21 I don't mind, then, hearing the Witness' answer to that 22 question. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Would you like 24 me to repeat the question? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Witness, do
1111 you want to hear it again? 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: Would you agree with me that the 6 confrontation and violence surrounding the death of 7 Dudley George would not have happened if the Crown had 8 honoured its treaty commitments to recognize the original 9 Stoney Point Reserve as Native lands in perpetuity? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I would think it they would have left 14 us be with our lands things might have been different 15 today. 16 Q: Would yo agree that Dudley George 17 would not have died if they had left you be with your 18 lands? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 20 difference, Mr. Klippenstien, and I think the reason I 21 was upset about the question, it's not -- the Witness is 22 saying might -- 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 25 you're saying "would," and I think that's the difference.
1121 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I think 3 if you would phrase the question that, It might have 4 contributed, or, might have, that's the way the Witness 5 is answering and that's a more appropriate way to put the 6 question, I think. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I recognize the 8 difference. I'm also wondering -- and I think this is 9 also a fair question -- whether the Witness agrees with 10 the way I've put the question as well. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she 12 answered the question, might have, again, so that's why I 13 point it out. Even though the way you asked it she used 14 the -- 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- word 17 "might." 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm -- it's 19 possible that the Witness doesn't wish to answer the 20 question the way I put it but perhaps if I can ask it -- 21 I -- I respectfully suggest that I'm entitled to get her 22 opinion on this point. And if she -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- wants to use 25 "might" instead of "would;" that's her evidence. But --
1131 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 2 that's the word she's used so far. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Hmm hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, if you 5 want to ask the question again. Because the word she's 6 used in answering it is might -- 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so far. 9 Ms. Hensel, do you want to say something? 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Just briefly. Mr. 11 Klippenstein is -- is asking the -- the Witness to 12 respond to a question that would require quite a bit of 13 speculation on her part. So, if he could rephrase the 14 question to take that into account it might be helpful 15 too. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that 17 could be why the Witness answered, might. So, I'll let 18 Mr. Klippenstein ask the question in his way. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 21 Q: Would you agree with me, Ms. Stevens, 22 that if, as -- as you've said, the Crown had left your 23 people alone with your -- your lands at Stoney Point, 24 including the Ipperwash Park lands, that the violence and 25 death -- the violence surrounding the death of Dudley
1141 George would not have happened? 2 A: I would have to say because it's a 3 long period of time, possibly it would have not have 4 happened because there wouldn't have been a dispute over 5 Ipperwash Park. 6 Q: And if there had not been a dispute 7 about Ipperwash Park Dudley George would not have been 8 protesting in 1995 at Ipperwash Park; is that right? 9 A: Probably not. 10 Q: Right. And if there had been no 11 protest in '95 he wouldn't have been shot in '95; is that 12 right? 13 A: Probably not. 14 Q: Thank you. Would you support a 15 recommendation by this Commission at the end of its 16 process that the Provincial Government give up any claim 17 it might have to Ipperwash Park and other parts of the 18 original Stoney Point Reserve and work toward the full 19 and formal return of those lands to Native people? 20 A: I supported that years ago. 21 Q: And you support it now? 22 A: I support it today. 23 Q: Would you agree with me that 24 honouring those treaty land commitments would be a way 25 for the Provincial Government to move towards a better
1151 relationship with your people? 2 A: The Treaty isn't with the Provincial 3 Government, it's with the Crown. 4 Q: Would you agree with me that having 5 the Province give up its claim to those Park lands and 6 working to have them restored to your peoples would be a 7 way of restoring that original treaty land commitment 8 even though it wasn't with the Province? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. I have no further questions. 11 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Klippenstein. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you very 15 much, Ms. Stevens. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 Mr. Rosenthal...? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Once again, sir, I 20 notice it's about 12:37. I'd be happy to start at -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What was 22 your estimate again? 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I had just said 24 about forty-five (45) minutes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I
1161 think we're going to have to straddle it. I think we can 2 start -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm in your hands, 4 sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 6 we should start. We didn't start this morning until half 7 past 10:00, so... 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm in your hands, 9 sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 11 think you could start your cross-examination, Mr. 12 Rosenthal. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And perhaps, you 14 could make -- if there's any -- point out a few things -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 I thought we might go through until about 1:15. Is that 17 right, Mr. -- if we go through at about 1:15 and then 18 break? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That would be fine. 20 Thank you, sir. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Good morning, Ms. Stevens. 24 A: Good morning. 25 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal.
1171 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: I'm one of the co-Counsel for a group 3 of descendants of Dan and Melva George -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- under the name Aazhoodena and 6 George Family Group. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Now, you are a very unusual witness 9 at this Inquiry, given you have broad experience in the 10 general situation with respect to First Nations people -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- because of your background, and 13 then you also very -- are very knowledgeable about the 14 current situation as well. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Given your knowledge, would you agree 17 with me that the seizure of the Stoney Point reserve in 18 1942 was one of the most outrageous acts in the twentieth 19 century against First Nations people. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 22 Rosenthal, I think you should tone down the rhetoric a 23 bit. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'll tone it down a 25 bit, if I may, sir.
1181 2 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: Would you agree that given all the 4 unfair treatment of First Nations people in the twentieth 5 century, the seizure of a reserve, of a complete reserve 6 like that, is one (1) of the worst acts against First 7 Nations people in the twentieth century that you're aware 8 of? 9 A: Yes, I would agree, because there was 10 another area that was a perfect choice for the Army to 11 take in 1942 and they chose not to. 12 Q: Yes, there was another nearby area -- 13 A: Yes, there was. 14 Q: -- that they rejected -- 15 A: Yes, there was. 16 Q: -- just because it would have cost 17 them money to bring in water, we understand; is that 18 right? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And in Ontario there are many -- many 21 lakes and many cottage properties and so on that were not 22 protected by treaty that they could have seized instead; 23 isn't that fair to say? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then to hold on to that land,
1191 when people expected it to be returned at the conclusion 2 of the war was, as the Commissioner doesn't want me to 3 use the word, outrageous -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, no, I 5 wasn't saying that I just said, you know, use language 6 that's appropriate. It was a serious act; we've heard 7 lots of evidence. But, just language that's appropriate. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, that was what 9 I thought was appropriate. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: What adjective would you put to it? 13 What would you think was an appropriate adjective to put 14 to the Federal Government not only seizing the land in 15 those circumstances, but maintaining their seizure of it 16 from 1942 until the present day in some formal or sense? 17 A: Devastation. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 A: Devastation for my family. 20 Q: And many other families? 21 A: And many others; the nineteen (19) 22 that lived down there. 23 Q: Yes. And it seems from the evidence 24 that we've had at this Inquiry, one (1) of the many 25 aspects of that devastation is the friction that it
1201 caused between Stony Point people and Kettle Point 2 people, with the Stoney Point people being forcibly being 3 put into Kettle Point -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- is that your understanding of the 6 oral history, too? 7 A: That's what grandpa told me. 8 Q: Yes. And you told us about how, in 9 1995 I believe, or '93 to '95, you were one (1) of the 10 people who was trying to heal that to some extent; is 11 that correct? 12 A: Very much so. 13 Q: And it's still a problem today; isn't 14 that right? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: Would you agree with me that given 17 the fact that the Federal Government's actions so 18 contributed to that problem, it's required for proper 19 healing that the Federal Government give enough in 20 compensation and lands and so on, to satisfy everyone, to 21 really help to heal that terrible rift that they caused. 22 Do you agree with that? 23 A: It's one (1) of the things. 24 Q: But, it should be their 25 responsibility to give enough of a pie that everybody has
1211 a big a piece as is reasonable; isn't that fair to say? 2 A: Well, that's fair to say, but I don't 3 necessarily look at it totally as a chunk of the pie. 4 Q: It has -- 5 A: It has to do with the land itself. 6 Q: Well, yes -- well, no, by the pie I 7 meant the total package that would include the land -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- and sufficient financial 10 compensation that people feel really satisfied that 11 they're getting adequate compensation and they don't have 12 to argue about exactly who gets what, because there's 13 enough for everyone to feel satisfied. 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, in your evidence this morning 19 there was a mention of a problem where there was some 20 cars stolen at Stoney Point. We've heard about other 21 problems. 22 Would you agree that given the situation, 23 that the people living at Stoney Point have been living 24 under, without any proper funding, without any proper 25 organization, never knowing what's going to happen,
1221 without any formality and without any ordinary policing 2 and ordinary services like that, they've done pretty well 3 in general. There have been a few incidents, but it 4 hasn't been chaotic and they've lived pretty well. 5 Wouldn't that be a fair summary? 6 A: What I saw when I was down there, 7 yes. 8 Q: Thank you. I gather that you, 9 personally, feel some conflict on this one (1) band/two 10 (2) Band issue; is that a fair estimate of -- 11 A: See this heart? 12 Q: Yes. And there are other people who 13 are similarly conflicted? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- but the people who really were 16 active in -- in an activist way in trying to get back the 17 land, demonstrating and leafleting and then finally 18 reclaiming part of the Base and then more of it, many of 19 them seemed to feel that there should be a -- a separate 20 Stoney Point First Nation restored; is that fair to say? 21 A: Well, there wasn't a separate nation 22 before, but I believe they think it's probably time that 23 there should be one now. 24 Q: Yeah. But again, I would suggest 25 that if the settlement and compensation were big enough,
1231 all of those concerns could be, perhaps, taken of; is 2 that fair to say? 3 A: I don't know. It's speculation. 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: I can't speculate -- 6 Q: Yes, it is speculation, but -- 7 A: -- that much. 8 Q: -- would you agree that large enough 9 compensation would certainly increase the prospects of 10 healing those rifts? 11 A: I don't know. I -- for me, I don't 12 think money will heal all of that. 13 Q: No, it won't heal all of it, 14 certainly. 15 A: Money can't buy everything. 16 Q: Now, the Beatles said it can't buy 17 you love. 18 A: Yes, they did. 19 Q: Now, if you could please look at Tab 20 12 of your Document Brief, which is Inquiry Document 21 Number 3000374 in Volume XIII. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Sorry, yes, I'm end up checking the
1241 document number, Mr. Chairman. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 6 Rosenthal, while you're doing that, I think the record 7 should show something that it won't -- if we don't 8 mention it, when you first put the question of one (1) 9 band or two (2), the Witness made a gesture -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that her 12 heart was being torn apart. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 15 that's an important thing to put on the record -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because 18 it wouldn't show otherwise. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you, Mr. 20 Commissioner. Yes, so did -- did you do it by your 21 explanation or should I -- should I just make -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 23 may be enough. I think that may be enough. I think it's 24 important to do it. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, yes, that she
1251 indicated that she, personally, was felt torn apart -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- by the question 4 of -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She showed 6 that her heart was being torn apart. I think that's what 7 you were trying to demonstrate, wasn't it? 8 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were 10 being torn. 11 THE WITNESS: Very difficult. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 13 I think we've got enough on the record. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: In any event, at -- at Tab 12, 17 several pages into Tab 12, I believe you would have a 18 document entitled, Statement of Principles for 19 Negotiating the Stoney Point Land Claim. You were 20 referring to that earlier. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And then I should like, if you would, 23 to ask you something about the second page of that 24 document and at the bottom of the second page it reads: 25 "Therefore be it resolved that..."
1261 And I should like to ask you about the 2 Number 2 of the resolutions there, the second one which 3 reads as follows: 4 "We are committed to seeking 5 compensation for the Stoney Point 6 locatees and will attempt to formulate 7 a workable plan with respect to how 8 such interests will be dealt with and 9 how those members' distinct and 10 separate interests will be reflected in 11 decisions respecting Stoney Point 12 lands. 13 It is also recognized that all Stoney 14 Point locatees and their descendants 15 have unique family and historical 16 interests in Stoney Point, therefore 17 assuring those members as having a 18 distinct interest which is to be 19 reflected and addressed in the 20 decision-making process in respect to 21 the return and development of the 22 Stoney Point lands." 23 So, with respect to that, we've had some 24 evidence towards the very beginning of this Inquiry from 25 a couple of expert witnesses about history and so on, and
1271 one (1) of them was Ms. Joan Holmes; I don't if you 2 became aware of her testimony or not. But, she indicated 3 some problems with respect to location tickets. 4 So, I wanted to ask you, when -- when the 5 word locatee is used, for example, as here, would you 6 agree with me that it has to be interpreted a little more 7 broadly at least then location tickets. And it has to be 8 interpreted as including everyone who can show that they 9 -- they or their ancestors -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- had some right to reside on the 12 Stoney Point Reserve at the time it was appropriated by 13 the Federal Government; is that fair to say? 14 A: Yeah. A -- a locatee is the actual 15 person whose name the location ticket was issued to. 16 Q: Yes. But -- but, then I'm suggesting 17 that a locatee, when you say recognizing the rights of 18 those people, it has to include people for whom there was 19 no location ticket if they could establish that they in 20 fact were -- or their descend -- their ancestors were 21 living on the land? 22 A: There were nineteen (19) families in 23 1942 which were moved off the land. They were -- not all 24 of those families held location tickets, some of them 25 did.
1281 Q: Right. 2 A: But at the same time there were 3 people from Kettle Point that held location tickets to 4 wood lots in Stoney Point. 5 Q: Exactly. 6 A: They weren't necessarily lots to 7 build homes, they were lots to harvest firewood. So, 8 there's always been a big shady area around all of the 9 location tickets. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: We started a committee about ten (10) 12 years ago, maybe longer, fifteen (15) years ago, in which 13 we took every location ticket and we started to trace all 14 the historical data to each ticket. Why? 15 Because when the lands come back it's 16 going to cause too much dissension amongst the families 17 that were moved off the land. 18 My family alone, there's four hundred 19 (400). How are we going to split a hundred and twenty 20 (120) acres of land today? That's only one (1) instance, 21 you know. So that's why we basically did that. 22 And there is a lot of -- there's a lot of 23 -- but we traced all of the old Council minutes of which 24 the councillor from Stoney Point was there, the 25 councillor from Kettle Point was there, and whoever was
1291 the elected Chief at that time. 2 Our records went back to the original 3 books of the 20's, where we started tracing every ticket 4 that was issued to Stoney -- on the Stoney Point land. 5 Q: Yes. And specifically you had 6 concluded there were nineteen (19) families living there. 7 Apparently there were other -- 8 A: I had a map, I should have brought -- 9 Q: -- conclusions of different numbers, 10 but -- 11 A: No, there were nineteen (19). There 12 were nineteen (19) homes in Stoney Point in 1942 when the 13 Government took over the -- when the Government moved in. 14 Q: Well, Ms. Holmes presented some 15 evidence suggesting different figures, approximately the 16 same figure but different figures. But, then, as you 17 indicated, that among the nineteen (19) persons -- or 18 nineteen (19) homes that you identified, some of those 19 people did not have location tickets? 20 A: No. There was even a common home 21 that a lot of people used who didn't have a place to 22 stay. It's kind of like in the middle of the community. 23 Q: Yes. But -- but, nonetheless, if you 24 could identify someone as coming from a family who was 25 among the nineteen (19), even --
1301 A: One thousand five hundred and forty- 2 two (1,542) Band members -- 3 Q: Would -- 4 A: -- I did study -- 5 Q: -- satisfy that in some sense? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But, it -- that from the nineteen 8 (19), with or without a location ticket? 9 A: With or without location tickets -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- from the nineteen (19) families 12 that were moved. One thousand -- over fifteen hundred 13 (1,500) people on our Band list can trace their lineage 14 back to a family that might have been moved from Stoney 15 Point. 16 Q: But, so in paragraph 2 of this 17 agreement, when you use the word locatee -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- would you include those -- those 20 families that didn't have location tickets, but that were 21 resident on Stoney Point Reserve? 22 A: Probably not when we did this 23 agreement. 24 Q: So, you were thinking of location 25 ticket?
1311 A: The actual tickets. But we always -- 2 we always had the understanding that there would be a 3 number of disputable areas as well where tickets weren't 4 held and there would be debates. 5 Some tickets were very clear who held the 6 ticket and then there's a lot, probably I would say one 7 third (1/3) of them where there's a lot of discussion 8 that would have to go into those actual tickets. 9 Q: Right. So, it's somewhat ambiguous 10 and would have to be checked more carefully upon any 11 resolution of this matter? 12 A: Yes. I should have brought my map. 13 I have a map at home that we did with the seniors. We 14 had an Infrastructure Committee and we did a map and we 15 placed every home where it was, every path, every trail, 16 every road, every building at the time of appropriation 17 in '42. 18 Q: I see. 19 A: There was about ten (10) of us that 20 worked on that committee for about four (4) years and 21 what we did is we talked to all -- like my dad who was 22 down there, and I'm going to say my dad was lying and 23 tell me, oh no, that house didn't exist there? No, I'm 24 not. 25 Q: Okay.
1321 A: So that's where we got all of our 2 information from, the people who were moved. 3 Q: And the map that did result, that -- 4 was that pretty uncontroversial then, I mean did 5 everybody pretty much agree as to what the situation had 6 been in 1942? 7 A: We had a number of meetings even for 8 people to come in and review that map, to make any 9 changes. That map was worked on for a long time. 10 Q: So, it got refined as you got 11 additional information? 12 A: Yes, I have it hanging in my entrance 13 way, this big -- because that's my home. 14 Q: And if these matters get finally 15 resolved, perhaps you'll bring out that map and it'll 16 help to decide -- 17 A: I might. 18 Q: -- who gets what compensation. 19 A: It's going to become a family 20 heirloom. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now you indicated in response to 25 questions from Ms. Hensel that sometimes around the
1331 period, I gather you were speaking, say 1993 to '95 in 2 particular, you issued some statements in the name of the 3 Band Council or the name of the Chief which you didn't 4 personally, necessarily, support. You had your own view, 5 but had a job to do as well. Is that fair to say? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And I gather that you were more 8 supportive of the people being in the Park and in the 9 Army Camp than -- than some of the other Band 10 councillors, say? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: Yes. And would that be because you 13 recognized that things had been going on so long, that 14 some kind of direct action had to be done in order to get 15 something going for the return of those lands? 16 Is that a fair conclusion? 17 A: I supported my dad, because I always 18 heard my dad and grand -- my grandfather talk about the 19 reserve where they grew up, where they were from, where 20 we were from. 21 Q: Yes, and -- 22 A: It's in your blood. What do they 23 say; Blood is thicker than water. 24 Q: Yes. And so you identified with the 25 people who were reclaiming the land more actively?
1341 A: Yes. 2 Q: You told us that when you were 3 informed by telephone call that someone had been shot, 4 you started phoning a number of media outlets. 5 Now, am I correct in understanding that 6 you did that because you hoped that that would help to 7 protect against a further assault by police if there were 8 a lot of media round, the police would be more reluctant 9 to attack the people again. 10 Is that -- is that what you were -- 11 A: In my training -- in my training, 12 because in the journalism and whatnot, in my experiences 13 I was always told that was the first thing to do whenever 14 there was a confrontation, was to get an outside third 15 party in and -- and generally that outside third party is 16 going to be some media. 17 That's why I started calling in as opposed 18 to calling everybody on the Res and telling them to do 19 something. 20 Q: And was it because you hoped that 21 their presence, if they came in response to your calls, 22 would help to protect -- 23 A: Would help -- 24 Q: -- people from another assault? 25 A: Yes, that's what I thought in my
1351 mind. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now, we've heard some evidence from 6 some of the people who were in the Park and the Camp on 7 September 6th and 7th that when the people from Kettle 8 Point marched over to the area the next day, that gave 9 them a feeling of protection, also, that more people were 10 coming and so on. 11 Is that what -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- what you had in mind as you joined 14 that march over to the Stoney Point area? 15 A: I can't remember what I felt. It was 16 just everything. 17 Q: But, there was a feeling of 18 solidarity with the people who were in the Park and the 19 Camp -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- is that not fair to say? 22 A: I guess so, yeah. Like we didn't 23 want anybody else to get hurt. 24 Q: Yes. 25
1361 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Perhaps, Mr. 4 Commissioner -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it a good 6 time? 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- you'll be happy 8 to hear me say that I'll stop here and we can all have 9 lunch. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 We'll adjourn now for lunch. It's ten (10) after. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Ms. Stevens, may I 13 thank you very, very much for your testimony. Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 15 finished yet, though. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, but from me you 17 are. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 19 are you finished? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I'm -- I've 21 completed my examination. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 23 you were asking to break. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm -- I'm asking 25 to break, but I'm trying to make it a very happy break
1371 for everybody by concluding my examination. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very -- I hadn't gotten that impression. Thank you, Mr. 4 Rosenthal. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I might, 6 before we break, let everyone know I sent a -- there were 7 some questions raised about some documents that will be 8 dealt with later in the week and I sent an e-mail around 9 last night. 10 I hope to have here, tomorrow morning, the 11 CD Volume XXV that will have the documents in it. I'm 12 asking it to be couriered down. We just got it in our 13 office today. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 We'll break now for lunch. Thank you very much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 17 adjourned until 2:25. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 1:11 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 2:27 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 I think we're up to you, Kevin Scullion.
1381 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And Mr. Commissioner 2 -- and I can advise Mr. Commissioner that we're not any 3 closer than we were this morning in determining what 4 those two (2) exhibits will be but we should by okay by 5 tomorrow morning. We'll meet with Mr. Millar and sort 6 out -- there's a couple of pages we're not quite sure 7 should be part of the exhibit. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: So, it should be 10 fine for tomorrow morning. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Ms. Stevens. 14 A: Good afternoon. 15 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion. Along 16 with Tony Ross we represent the Residents of Aazhoodena. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Now, if I understand your testimony 19 this morning you had indicated you were the Band 20 Administrator from '91 to '97? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, if I caught it -- your comments 23 correctly, you did basically everything? 24 A: A lot. 25 Q: Yeah.
1391 A: Yes. 2 Q: It's fair to say that you were very 3 much hands-on as the Administrator? 4 A: Yeah. In terms of, yeah, 5 Administrator of the Band's programs and everything. 6 Q: Okay. But, you took general 7 instructions and directions from Chief and Council as a 8 result of their meetings? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Okay. So, you would have been aware 11 of what the instructions and directions and decisions 12 were by Chief and Council as well as any dissenting 13 opinions? 14 A: Yes, when it happened. But, you 15 know, that was ten (10) years ago. 16 Q: No, understood. 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: And it's been quite a while. But I 19 just wanted to clarify that the actions that you took as 20 Band Administrator would have been actions that were, if 21 not condoned, they were certainly the instructions -- 22 upon the instructions or directions of Chief and Council? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You wouldn't have been acting on your 25 own. You would have been part of the bigger group, so to
1401 speak? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And if I understood, and I 4 apologize for having to go back to this again, but I had 5 a number of notes on the one (1) band versus two (2) 6 bands -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- question. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And at one point you had made a -- a 11 motion of tearing at your heart, and maybe I didn't 12 understand it fully but my impression was that you 13 understood that there was two (2) sides to the issue? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: That there were arguments in favour 16 of the separation and division of the Band and there were 17 certain arguments in favour of keeping the Band together 18 as one (1) big band with two (2) separate land masses; is 19 that fair? 20 A: Kind of. 21 Q: Okay. You would describe it 22 differently? 23 A: Well, it's really hard to described, 24 especially when you're somebody like me, whose family 25 comes from Stoney Point but you work for the Chippewas of
1411 Kettle and Stony Point, so it's really hard. That's what 2 I meant when -- that's why I left my job. I resigned 3 because I couldn't stand it anymore. 4 Q: That's in '97? 5 A: In '97. 6 Q: Right. And I think you bring a -- a 7 further perspective too. Your father is from Stoney 8 Point? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Your mother is from Kettle Point? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And you're acting as Band 13 Administrator, administrating the Chief and Council's 14 wishes which are not necessarily the same as your own? 15 A: My father's beliefs. 16 Q: Your father's beliefs which you 17 shared? 18 A: Which I share. 19 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say in 1991, 20 when you came in as Band Administrator, that this 21 portfolio, this file as you referred to it, had sat for 22 quite some time? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: It was reviewed periodically but it 25 really wasn't going very far very quickly?
1421 A: No, it wasn't. 2 Q: In fact, DND or the Federal 3 Government as a whole wasn't really taking the Band's 4 demands that seriously and were dragging their feet? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say that when 7 the group moved in, including your father, in May of 8 1993, this sort of kick-started or jump-started 9 discussions with DND? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Along with other factors but 12 it was certainly a major factor pushing -- 13 A: A major factor, yes. 14 Q: -- pushing it forward. In fact, 15 within a month, DND asked to meet and they were starting, 16 as they sometimes say in the press, starting negotiations 17 at that point. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: All right. And, in fact, within a 20 year, in 1994, they'd made an announcement that they were 21 going to return the lands? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And is it fair to say that following 24 the announcement that they were going to return the 25 lands, they then dragged their feet some more?
1431 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And, in fact, we have a number 3 of documents and if it helps, I can refer you directly to 4 it, but my understanding is that the chief at one point, 5 told the DND maybe we should have more people go into the 6 Camp and maybe that'll get this thing moving forward 7 again? 8 A: You'd -- 9 Q: Is that -- 10 A: -- have to ask Tom that. 11 Q: All right. But, were you there when 12 a comment of that nature was made to DND that perhaps we 13 should move more people into the camp and maybe you'll 14 take us more seriously? 15 A: If it was an official meeting I was 16 probably was, because I attended most of them. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Just one moment, Commissioner. I'm 22 just sorting through the document. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION:
1441 Q: Perhaps it would help if I can pass a 2 document to you. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I've an extra copy. 5 It's simply Document Number 100 -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 1007612. 8 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 11 Q: If you want to take a moment to take 12 a look at that. That's following Maynard's -- Maynard 13 George's occupation of the Provincial Park that you 14 talked about this morning. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And the part that I referred you to 20 in general was the last paragraph of that. 21 A: Of the whole document? 22 Q: Of the whole document, at page 2. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1451 Q: Just the last paragraph seems to be 2 showing Chief Tom Bressette expressing his frustration. 3 A: Oh, yes. Hmm hmm, I see what you 4 mean. 5 Q: Do you recall that comment being made 6 in the course of an -- a meeting with DND or something to 7 that effect? 8 A: Probably something to that effect. 9 Q: And it reflects the frustration 10 that's being held by the First Nation at that point in 11 time, because you've got an announcement that this land's 12 going to come back and then they say to you, Well, we're 13 going to return the land but where there's a lot of 14 issues to deal with. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And they dragged their feet some 17 more. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Well, you know, we were that far away 21 in terms of compensation -- my arms aren't that long. 22 Q: Right, and it may not have come that 23 much closer in the years since. 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
1461 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: But, at that point in time, you'd 4 agree that there was not only a rift between the people 5 that called themselves Stoney Pointers and the group was 6 the Kettle and Stony Point Band, but there's also 7 organized groups of each -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- party. They were trying to deal 10 with each other in solving this problem with the Federal 11 Government? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And without getting into 14 the negotiations that happened along the way, those 15 groups were attempting to work together in order to find 16 a resolution that all parties could live with? 17 A: Yeah, there were lots of attempts 18 like the statement of -- of principles for negotiating 19 the land claim, is a classic example. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: I believe myself, and DIAND might 22 have even wrote that. 23 Q: They were good ideas, but they 24 weren't put into effect because DIAND really didn't meet 25 with you seriously?
1471 A: Yeah. 2 Q: But, it's fair to say that they -- as 3 it was before 1942, there were separate communities -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- if not separate bands? 6 A: Separate communities, but the same 7 Council. But -- 8 Q: Right -- 9 A: -- like I said, they would have a 10 member from Stoney and a member from Kettle Point on the 11 Council. 12 Q: Right, well before 1942, they were 13 separate communities -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- and as you've indicated, they 16 elected certain council -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- that would then act as a council 19 for both -- 20 A: Both -- 21 Q: -- communities? 22 A: -- yes. 23 Q: Is it fair to say that the Stoney 24 Point community was significantly smaller than the Kettle 25 Point community before 1942?
1481 A: I believe it was, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And that remains the case 3 today when there's fifteen hundred (1,500) members? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: So, overall, the Kettle Point -- are 6 you able to give me a percentage? A seventy-five/twenty- 7 five (75/25) or eighty/twenty (80/20) between the Kettle 8 Point and the Stoney Point groups? 9 A: At time -- at the time of separation? 10 Q: If you know at the time of 11 separation. 12 A: I don't know. I think there were -- 13 there would have been very small -- I would say thirty 14 (30) -- seventy (70). But, today you can -- almost 15 anybody in the band can trace some descendant back to 16 Stoney Point. 17 Q: Right, but of the group that consider 18 themselves Stoney Pointers, they're certainly -- in the 19 minority, aren't they? 20 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, we are. 21 Q: Okay. And I think you've gotten into 22 some of the difficulties that might arise if the land is 23 returned -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- with all the questions of
1491 locatees, location tickets, and other proprietary matters 2 that people are going to most likely fight over. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Because, you know, you don't need -- 6 you didn't -- you don't need a crystal ball to know 7 there's going to be problems. 8 Q: Sure and -- and you'd agree with me, 9 given your experience with other First Nations that the 10 Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point situation with 11 location tickets is a little different from other First 12 Nations where location tickets are not used? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And -- and -- 15 A: A lot of First Nations in Canada were 16 common band land -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- where tickets weren't issued. 19 Q: Right, and the common band land 20 leads -- 21 A: Owned by the whole community. 22 Q: Owned by the community, which leads 23 to designated homes for families? 24 A: Yes, and when you moved out of that 25 home it was another band home to be -- to be occupied by
1501 another family in need. 2 Q: Right, so the -- the other 3 communities, it's fair to say, didn't have certain rights 4 that went with the land, they were simply entitled to 5 occupy the houses that were designated? 6 A: The -- the band members -- Sarcee is 7 a classic example. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: And we visited them many times. 10 Q: And we could probably go through a 11 number of examples, but -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- a lot of First Nation communities 14 have the common ground and then designated housing? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But Kettle and Stony Point is very 17 different from that with the location tickets? 18 A: Even though it's a separate -- well, 19 there were location tickets, but today they're called 20 certificates of possession, which is -- but really it's a 21 certificate of possession, but still all land is -- I 22 don't know how you would say it, is owned by the 23 community or the Council. 24 That's the way it's supposed to be, but 25 that's not really the way it is, because once you do have
1511 the certification of possession, that's basically your 2 land, but really it's still part of the land of the 3 overall community. 4 Q: Okay. Well, there's a whole host of 5 issues we could probably get into -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- but it's safe to say they're a 8 little different from the way Kettle and Stony Point 9 location tickets are dealt? 10 A: Yes. Yeah. 11 Q: All right. And, in fact, when your 12 father moved back in 1993, I think you'd indicated he 13 felt like he had gone home? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And in your experience in the Kettle 16 and Stony Point is that something you'd noticed with 17 other, quote "Stoney Pointers", moving back to the land? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: They were very happy. 21 Q: They were back to the land that had 22 been taken from them in '42. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1521 Q: Now, you'd mentioned at some point in 2 your evidence this morning, it was always the position of 3 the Kettle Point Chief and Council or governing group 4 that the Park lands were to be part of the claim being 5 made against the Government? 6 A: It was going to be at some point, 7 yes. 8 Q: Right. I think your term was, it 9 didn't make any sense to have this big piece of land that 10 didn't make it to the lake? 11 A: Yes. Yes, with a little tiny chunk 12 set aside for other use. 13 Q: Okay. But, is it fair to say that 14 that claim that was in the minds of Chief and Council and 15 the -- the governing parties, was never translated into 16 paper? It wasn't put to the Government in '93, '94, '95? 17 A: Not officially. 18 Q: Not officially? Unofficially? 19 A: Talks. 20 Q: Right. And there was efforts for co- 21 management of the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 22 A: That was -- that was more an economic 23 development venture as well. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: But, as well, to get our foot in the
1531 door to show them that basically we could be co-managers. 2 We were interested in tourism and economic development in 3 the area and working together. 4 Q: Right. And when you say, a foot in 5 the door, was that a foot in the door to say -- 6 A: A foot in the door to start working 7 with MNR more closely. 8 Q: But eventually MNR moving out and 9 Kettle and Stony Point having the Provincial Park? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Would that be accurate with the foot 12 in the door concept. 13 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Did you ever express that to anybody 15 at MNR? 16 A: Oh, yes, Les knew. 17 Q: That's Les Kobayashi? 18 A: Yeah, Les knew that we had every 19 intention of at a some point asking for the Park back. 20 Q: Right. And that -- and that 21 understanding was as a result of discussions with you or 22 with you and Council or with Council on their own? 23 A: Council. 24 Q: Okay. But, somebody from Kettle and 25 Stony Point, the Chief and Council or yourself, talking
1541 with Les Kobayashi? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 3 Q: And that was well before the events 4 that we're here -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- today about, in -- in 1995? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: All right. You were referred this 9 morning, and it was made an exhibit, to a note from the 10 6th of September '95, that's Exhibit 261. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: P-261. Do you have that in front of 13 you? 14 A: Two thirty-five (235), no. Oh yes, 15 okay. 16 Q: And the context in which this 17 document was brought up was a telephone call that appears 18 to have been made to you -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- on the 6th of September? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And it's -- if I recall correctly, 23 you recalled the discussion and you recalled the fact 24 that you'd been asked, at least the Kettle and Stony 25 Point Band had been asked for a position paper on
1551 something and that it would be delivered tomorrow; do you 2 recall that? 3 A: I recall that they were trying to get 4 something from Tom in writing around that time. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And I don't know if anything ever did 7 go out. I can't recall. 8 Q: Do you recall that what they were 9 looking for was a position statement from the Band on the 10 proposed MNR/OPP actions against the occupiers of the 11 Park? 12 A: I can't recall specifically what it 13 was about but to know what Chief and Council's position 14 was on the general occupation of the Park. 15 Q: Right. And they asked for that in 16 writing didn't they? 17 A: Yes, they did. 18 Q: All right. And that was scheduled to 19 come on September 7th? 20 A: Hmm hmm. I guess we were going to 21 have a Council meeting that night, I don't know. I can't 22 recall all of the meetings. 23 Q: Right. There seems to be reference, 24 if you take a look at the fourth bullet, to a Council 25 meeting taking place that evening --
1561 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- on September the 6th. Do you see 3 that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did that Council meeting ever 6 take place? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: You don't remember it taking place? 9 A: No. I -- it could have. I -- like I 10 said, I believe, yeah, it -- I don't know. I can't 11 remember that far back. 12 Q: All right. So, it's possible; it's 13 just been ten (10) years? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: But, we probably did because, you 17 know, like -- like I said, there were so many meetings 18 going on around that time; general Band membership 19 meetings, meetings with other people, Council meetings, 20 scrums or whatever you want to call them, you know. 21 Q: It was a busy period? 22 A: It was very busy. 23 Q: All right. The third bullet on this 24 e-mail seems to -- to suggest that Mr. Elliott was 25 advised that the Band Administration has no land claims
1571 on Ipperwash Provincial Park? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Probably no official land 3 claims. 4 Q: Right. So -- 5 A: At that point, like, officially 6 filed. 7 Q: So, that would have been -- and I 8 appreciate that this is his handwriting -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- or his note that says that he's 11 being advised that there's no land claims. But your 12 evidence will be that there was no formal land claims but 13 it was always -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- out there? 16 A: Oh yes. 17 Q: All right. The next bullet says: 18 "The Band Administration is not aware 19 of any burial grounds --" 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: "-- within Ipperwash Provincial Park 22 but this question will be raised at a 23 Council meeting this evening." 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Do you recall any discussions that
1581 were held at Kettle Point, either in a Council meeting or 2 otherwise, regarding burial grounds? 3 A: No. Like, I think, the only thing 4 that I ever remember was when we did talk about the co- 5 management of getting the whole Park area looked at. And 6 I don't know if burial grounds would have been one of the 7 things that we were looking at at that time. 8 Q: Okay. But at -- at this point in 9 time you're being advised that the MNR and OPP are 10 seeking an injunction to move the people out of the Park? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: All right. And they're asking you, 13 it seems, not you personally but the group in general -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- about burial grounds in the Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you -- do you recall whether or 18 not that was an urgent request to the Chief and Council, 19 what -- as in what is in the Park -- 20 A: I think so. 21 Q: -- are there burial grounds? 22 A: I do believe it was. That was one of 23 the things that the Chief and Council wanted information 24 on immediately -- 25 Q: Okay.
1591 A: -- because that was what the whole 2 occupation was over. 3 Q: Right, but you don't remember any 4 discussions that were held regarding that issue? 5 A: It could have been. I don't recall. 6 I know we had Victor Gulewitsch do a whole bunch of 7 research because he was also researching a claim on the 8 Stoney Point lands; I believe it was timber cutting. 9 And it could have came out of some of the 10 discussions he had with Council but I do know at the 11 time, council was trying to verify and confirm that the 12 claim made by the people who had went into the Park, was 13 valid, that there was indeed a burial ground. 14 And the Council was relying on the 15 Minister of Indian Affairs to provide that information -- 16 Q: Right, so tell us -- 17 A: -- which it did come later. 18 Q: Yeah, quite quickly after -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- September 6th. They came within a 21 couple of days. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: But, is it fair to say the Council 24 was looking for some sort of confirmation from Indian 25 Affairs or from the Federal departments generally, that
1601 there was, in fact, burial grounds in the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And is it fair to say that you 4 wouldn't have told whoever was asking about it -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- that there were no burial grounds, 7 you would indicate they were looking into it? 8 A: Yeah, those are his notes. 9 Q: Okay, they are -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- and it seems unlikely that you 12 would say there are no burial grounds -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- when, in fact, you're looking into 15 it. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 18 there is any elders meetings held or any consultation 19 with elders regarding the burial grounds on that day? 20 A: I don't know. I really don't know. 21 Whether people made calls to ask elders, I don't know. 22 Q: You didn't make calls to ask elders 23 and you weren't directed to make those calls? 24 A: I can't recall. I'm sure I would 25 have asked my dad about burial grounds down there, but I
1611 can't remember asking him. 2 Q: We have, at Tab 16 of your booklet 3 there, an article with the Windsor Star on Saturday, 4 September the 9th. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: It looks like part of an article, at 9 least I have part of it. And about three-quarters (3/4) 10 of the way down the column on the left -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- there seems to be a quote from you 13 that starts off, "But one thing we agree with"? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I can't find it. 18 Q: Well, let me read it for you and let 19 me know if that's properly quoted and whether that's -- 20 A: Down here? Like this is like -- 21 Q: I have a larger version -- 22 A: -- this big. 23 Q: Let me -- let me try it with my 24 larger -- 25 A: I'm not getting any younger here. I
1621 can't see it, to tell you the honest to God truth, so -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- I can't see it. It's just a blur, 4 it's too small. 5 Q: All right. I'll read it -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: Let me know if it's accurate. 8 "But one thing we agree with, we 9 support the fact that by living on the 10 land they're drawing attention to our 11 land --" 12 A: I see it. 13 Q: "-- negotiations at Camp Ipperwash. 14 We can't say anything bad about them, 15 they are still our people." 16 Would that be something that you would 17 have said in or about that time period, September 9, 18 1995? 19 A: Probably. 20 Q: And that reflected your ideas and 21 beliefs at that time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And those didn't change between 24 September 6th and September 9th? Those were always your 25 beliefs, that they were drawing attention to the issues
1631 by living on the land? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yeah, and unfortunately for Chief and 4 Council they were not only drawing attention to it, they 5 were causing some problems in terms of getting it 6 returned? 7 A: For Chief and Council. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Not for Liz. 10 Q: Not for Liz. You've always been 11 fairly resilient -- 12 A: -- from there, what can I say, you 13 know. 14 Q: Thank you, Ms. Stevens, those are all 15 my questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much, Mr. Scullion. I think the Province's is next. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: 22 Q: Good afternoon. 23 A: Good afternoon. 24 Q: My name is Susan Freeborn, I'm a 25 Counsel -- one of the Counsel for the Province of
1641 Ontario. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And that includes the staff from the 4 Ministry of Natural Resources, so -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- I have a few questions -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- with respect to MNR staff? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: I take it from your evidence today 11 and that of Chief Bressette last week that the MNR staff 12 had a -- a pretty good relationship with the Kettle and 13 Stony Point Council, did they not? 14 A: No, Liz Thunder had a good 15 relationship that started the whole thing going, yes. 16 Q: Okay. Oh, so you -- you contributed 17 to -- 18 A: Yes, establishing that relationship. 19 Q: -- fostering that relationship? 20 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 21 Q: All right. And, in fact, you had 22 some direct dealings with Les Kobayashi in certain 23 initiatives? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And -- and that extended to other
1651 things such as communicating. You -- you were fostering 2 communication basically? 3 A: Yes, including, like, the deer cull 4 that now goes on. That was birthed out of a lot of 5 discussions we had with Les -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- and a number of other things. 8 Q: All right. So, there was 9 communication back and forth between MNR and -- and 10 yourself? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you were consulted by MNR about 13 issues that affected the Band? 14 A: No, it was my role to bring -- to get 15 them together and then once, you know, once they seemed 16 lukewarm to some of my ideas, then they would be brought 17 into Council to -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- to get the whole thing going. 20 Q: Would -- 21 A: I was just a starter, yeah. 22 Q: I'm sorry? 23 A: I was just a starter to get things 24 going, you know, and then after that your political arm 25 takes over.
1661 Q: Right. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: But, in the fall, then of -- summer 4 and fall of 1995, things were working quite well with 5 MNR? 6 A: In the fall of 1995? No. 7 Q: I'm just talking prior to the events. 8 A: Oh, well, we -- like I said, we had 9 discussions ongoing about some good ideas we were going 10 to do together. 11 Q: Okay. And in -- earlier this 12 morning, I think Ms. Hensel had put to you that document 13 and I think Mr. Scullion had also put the -- that was 14 Exhibit 261 -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- that e-mail. 17 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 18 A: And that was with respect to the 19 discussions you had about whether there was an existence 20 of a land claim or the burial sites and given the, you 21 know, the -- the fostering of relationships that you had 22 tried to develop -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- it wasn't unusual for them to be 25 consulting with the Band about -- Band Council -- about
1671 these issues, was it? 2 A: No, it wasn't unusual. 3 Q: As a matter of fact, it was important 4 that they, you know, check in with the -- the Band 5 Council and yourself to find out if there was some 6 substance to some of these issues? 7 A: Well, because we had already 8 established a -- somewhat of a relationship for the last 9 three (3) years, so, you know, like, from the time we 10 first started discussing things with them from the early 11 '90s leading up to here, I would assume it would have 12 been Dan or somebody calling because those would have 13 been the people we had been working with up until that 14 point. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: So, we probably felt more comfortable 17 speaking with them. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: Or they felt more comfortable calling 20 us at the Band Office because we knew each other face-to- 21 face. 22 Q: Sure, sure. And -- and would you 23 agree that part of the problem was as well that at that 24 time MNR -- because the occupiers didn't have a defined 25 leader, MNR didn't know really who they could negotiate
1681 with and speak with? 2 A: Yeah. They were kind of like us; 3 between a rock and a hard place. 4 Q: Right. Not knowing who to -- who to 5 talk to. 6 A: Hmm hmm, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And you'd indicated earlier 8 with respect to the -- the foot in the door and you had 9 said that you'd had discussions with Les Kobayashi about 10 eventually taking over the -- the Park; is that correct? 11 A: Just getting it back as part of the 12 Stoney Point claim. Yeah, I -- I'm sure we had mentioned 13 that to Les. A lot of the meetings were very informal, 14 just kind of getting to know you type of things and then 15 working our way up to actually, you know, putting on the 16 table the deer cull and the management -- co-management 17 agreement. 18 Q: You -- you sort of took my question 19 away from me. I was going to ask you if those 20 discussions were on an informal basis. 21 A: Yes, they were, like, just 22 establishing a relationship. 23 Q: Sure, I understand. Thank you, those 24 are my questions. 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Ms. Freeborn. 3 I think Ms. Jones is next if I'm not 4 mistaken. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: Good afternoon. 10 A: Good afternoon. 11 Q: I'm Karen Jones. I'm one (1) of the 12 lawyers that acts for the Ontario Provincial Police 13 Association. 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And I just have a few questions for 16 you. I think you had said in your evidence earlier this 17 morning, you were talking about sort of the larger land 18 claim that the Kettle and Stony Point Band intended to 19 advance at some point in time. 20 And I think you had said it extended out 21 to Port Franks? 22 A: Yes. In -- in the original -- well, 23 what people call the treaty documents -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- the explanation of the actual land
1701 per -- I can't remember if it was chain -- there's a 2 word, rods -- we felt it went -- extended beyond the 3 Outer Drive boundary. That, in fact, what we actually 4 ended up with was a number of whatever rods shorter than 5 what we should have got. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: We felt it did go a little bit beyond 8 the Outer Drive boundary and we were hoping to get some 9 research done on that as well. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And then you had talked a little bit 13 earlier about, in 1993, after the occupation of the Base 14 and -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- you talked a little bit about the 17 split going on between the Band as being something that 18 was really heart wrenching -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- for you. And I take it it was 21 difficult for other people as well? 22 A: I think it was difficult for a lot of 23 people but I had my own reasons why it was difficult, you 24 know, working for the Band and everything, you know -- 25 Q: Right.
1711 A: -- trying to make a living. I wanted 2 to go down there myself but I never did. I was invited 3 to move in there and I never did because I, you know, I 4 have children to feed. 5 Q: Yeah. It was a -- 6 A: All boils down to economics, yeah. 7 Q: It was a real struggle for you? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: You had talked a little bit earlier 10 about there being a power struggle between the Kettle and 11 Stony Point Band and the Stoney Pointers? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: How did you see that playing out? 14 A: Well, I don't mean power in terms of 15 -- what I meant was the fact that the First Nation 16 community really wanted to negotiate the return of the 17 lands and get, you know, a good deal and they felt that, 18 to some degree, what the Stoney Point people were doing 19 was hindering that a bit. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Because time was wasted trying to 22 deal with, I don't know, I guess issues or the Government 23 dealing things with them. And it seemed to hinder the 24 process some. 25 Q: Okay.
1721 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: And -- sorry. 4 Q: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to 5 interrupt you. 6 A: No. No. It's just that, you know, 7 like, Stoney had their own -- Carl was elected Chief 8 and -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- you know, so it was a little bit, 11 well, you know, if you've got two (2) Chiefs, of course 12 there's a little bit of a power struggle. But, I think 13 it all had to do with just hindering the actual claim 14 that every -- everybody wanted to advance. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: We all the same -- same goal, common 17 goal, common dream, but it was just how to make everybody 18 work together towards it instead of working together on 19 their own. 20 Q: Right. Now, did you have the view 21 over the course of time and especially in sort of 1994 22 and 1995, that there were other people that were sort of 23 exerting influence, especially on people who were on the 24 Base, to have them be separate as opposed to work 25 together with Kettle and Stony Point Band?
1731 A: Well, my personal opinion, I didn't 2 really believe that but that was some of the general 3 thoughts of the -- some of the people in Kettle Point. 4 But, you know, how can you know who's exerting whatever 5 over anybody if you're not down there? You know -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- it doesn't make any sense -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- to me. I didn't really feel 10 anybody had any pressure over anybody. 11 Q: Okay. Ms. Stevens, I wanted to hand 12 a -- a few documents to you. 13 And, Mr. Commissioner, just to explain 14 what I'm handing up. We've had a document that's been 15 made an exhibit and that is P-212, which was the letter 16 from Audrey Doer (phonetic) to Tony Ross. 17 And there's a letter that predated that 18 that was from Mr. Ross to Ron Irwin that is copied to 19 Audrey Doer that I think is what's being responded to. 20 And then a letter after that that looks like it's from 21 Ms. Stevens to Mr. Ross. 22 And what I wanted to do, to see if I could 23 save a little bit of time, is hand out those three (3) 24 documents and see if I can walk through them with Ms. 25 Stevens. And just for the assistance of Counsel, the
1741 letter from Mr. Ross to Mr. Irwin is Document 900094, 2 pages 2 and 3. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not an 4 exhibit, but you're giving us -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't believe it's an 6 exhibit, although we may want to make it one. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And a third 8 document? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, yes. And the 10 second document, as I said, is the letter from Ms. Doer 11 to Mr. Ross and that's already an exhibit, P-212; it's 12 9000115. 13 And then the last document I wanted to 14 hand up, which is the letter to Mr. Ross from Ms. Thunder 15 at the time, now Ms. Stevens, is 900118. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 17 document an exhibit? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: It's not and it hasn't 19 been commented on yet and it -- that's really that 20 document I wanted to ask about, but I thought if we had 21 the other two (2) it would maybe assist in making some 22 context for it. 23 And, Mr. Commissioner, I have a copy of 24 those documents for you also, if you'd like to follow 25 along.
1751 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. Thanks. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 8 Q: And, Ms. Stevens, you might just want 9 to take a minute to look at the letters, because what I 10 really want to ask you about is your letter, the last 11 one. But, I think you'll understand or at least be able 12 to put in context if you read the first two (2). 13 A: Oh, okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Hmm hmm. Okay. Hmm hmm. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Hmm hmm, okay. 22 Q: Okay. And these letters, the three 23 (3) that we are looking at, are all from May of 1994? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And I take it that you knew at that
1761 time, that there was some efforts being made by the group 2 that was at Stoney Point to deal with the Government 3 directly -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- as opposed to through Kettle and 6 Stony Point council? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And I wanted to then take you to your 9 letter which is dated May 27th, 19 -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- 94 -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- and it appears from that, that you 14 did receive the response from Ms. Doer and that was one 15 of the things that you were responding to. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And I've looked at the third 18 paragraph in the letter that talks about -- it seemed to 19 me, a concern about somebody who was unfamiliar with, it 20 says, your heritage and the perspective, someone in that 21 situation trying to work towards separating the Kettle 22 and Stony Point Band -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- and the Stoney Point group. 25 A: Yes.
1771 Q: Was that the concern that you had at 2 the time, that sort of, people were assisting in that 3 process that didn't really understand what was going on? 4 A: Probably -- 5 Q: -- effect on the community? 6 A: Probably. Where I say "you're 7 working for separation for our Band never in a million 8 years", because the referendum would have never passed at 9 that point. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I believe the ideal of a referendum 12 of separation was discussed at Band meetings. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: It was almost an offer to the Stoney 15 Point people to, Okay, let's call a referendum and see if 16 your separation idea will go through, and when I say 17 "never in a million years", it wouldn't have happened 18 then. I -- maybe some days our Band -- maybe some day in 19 the future our Band will separate, but at that given 20 point in '94/'95 you would need fifty (50) plus 1 percent 21 of all eligible voters -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- in accordance with any referendum 24 vote in accordance with election through the Indian Act 25 and that wouldn't have happened, yeah.
1781 Q: Okay. 2 A: Who knows? 3 Q: And I looked at the last paragraph in 4 your letter saying: 5 "I just wish people like you would 6 leave us alone because it's our 7 problem, not yours --" 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: "-- and only our community can solve 10 it." 11 A: That's true and that's true today. 12 Q: And can you help us understand what 13 you mean by that? 14 A: It's got to be all of the people of 15 the community that decide that once we're going to move 16 forward, we should do it as a unified collective voice, 17 but that's not happened, even yet. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: You know? 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: That's what I meant by that. It's 22 got to be basically the community that's going to do this 23 and not anybody else. Even if we got a $100 million -- 24 $200 million, it doesn't mean that my neighbour's still 25 not going to hate me because of what happened forever and
1791 then their children and their children after that. It's 2 going to take generations to heal what's happened to our 3 community, not just ten (10) years, not twenty (20). 4 It's going to take a long time. 5 Q: All right. Okay. 6 A: That's what I meant by that. 7 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, I 8 wonder just for the sake of having the full set of 9 documents, if we could have the letter dated May 3, 1994 10 from Mr. Ross to Mr. Irwin, that's Document 900094 made 11 the next exhibit? 12 And, again, the only reason I'm suggesting 13 that is because the letter responding to it is already an 14 exhibit, that is P-212. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 16 any objection to these documents going in, in that way? 17 That's fine. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-262, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-262: Document 90094 May 03/'94 21 Letter to Hon. Ronald A. 22 Irwin from E. Anthony 23 Ross re: Stoney Point I.R. 24 43 25
1801 MS. KAREN JONES: And then if we could 2 have the letter dated May 27th, 1994 to Mr. Ross from -- 3 then signed by Elizabeth Thunder, which is Document 4 9000118 made the exhibit after that? 5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-263. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-263: Document 900118 May 27/'94 9 letter to Tony Ross from 10 Elizabeth Thunder, Band 11 Administrator 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: And, Ms. Stevens, do you have before 15 you the cerlox bound document book? Yeah, you do. 16 I wondered if you could please turn to Tab 17 18 of that book, which is the Kettle and Stoney Point 18 council minutes and it's Exhibit P-219? 19 A: Hmm hmm. Oh, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. Now, the reason I wanted to 21 take you here, Ms. Stevens, is we've gone through the 22 minutes with a number of different people now, and this 23 is -- Tab 18 is the general band meeting -- Kettle and 24 Stony Point Community Centre minutes from Thursday, May 25 5th, 1994 and from my review of the minutes that we've
1811 been provided, this looked like it was the first minute 2 of a general Band or a Council meeting where the concern 3 about Kettle and Stony Point Band members being kept out 4 of the Base arose. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: And I'm wondering if you can turn 7 your mind back, Ms. Stevens. I know you spoke about it a 8 little bit earlier in your evidence about hearing of that 9 concern? Do you recall when it first started coming to 10 your attention as Band Administrator? 11 A: Maybe, some time in '94. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I don't think anything ever happened 14 in '93 after the people first moved in. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: '94, I don't know, I can' remember 17 exactly -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- when it started happening, but 20 yeah, maybe in the summer when it got warmer. You know, 21 not too many people are around the Base in the winter, 22 too cold. 23 Q: Right. It would have started 24 probably spring or summer maybe? 25 A: Yeah, probably when the weather
1821 started getting good and, you know... 2 Q: Right. Okay. And if I can ask you 3 to turn over to the next tab, which is Tab 19, and that's 4 the minutes from the regular Council meeting dated June 5 3, 1994. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And if you turn over to the third 8 page behind that tab, in the middle paragraph, and the 9 top part of it looks like it's crossed out, but it says: 10 "Marlene George wanted to know if 11 Council was aware that a school trip 12 that she had scheduled for Grade 7 and 13 8 to Stoney Point had been cancelled 14 without any answers." 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And it goes on to talk about that: 17 "Due to a situation at Camp Ipperwash, 18 Stoney Point parents may have had 19 concerns about their kids going which 20 was the trip was cancelled". 21 Do you remember in or around that time 22 which would have been sort of June of 1994 if the 23 concerns about what was going on at the base were 24 sufficient, for example, to keep the kids from Kettle and 25 Stony Point going there as a group?
1831 A: I don't recall. I really don't 2 recall, but -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- I don't think there was a lot of 5 stuff going on. I don't know why they would have 6 cancelled. 7 Q: Well -- 8 A: Usually it takes one (1) or two (2) 9 people to express a concern and everybody's all -- 10 Q: Gets in a fuss? 11 A: My daughter stayed down there a few 12 months ago and other parents were, oh, you're letting 13 your kid go down -- of course, I am. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: She's more safer down there, you 16 know. 17 Q: Okay. And then I wanted to move on 18 to the summer of 1995, because it sounded like, from 19 previous witnesses that in the spring and summer of 1995, 20 there was a real increase in tension. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Between the Kettle and Stony Point 23 Band, at least the Council and the Chief and the people 24 who were occupying the Base. 25 Is that consistent with what -- with your
1841 recollection? 2 A: I would think -- I would say there 3 was an escalation. 4 Q: Right. And I take it there were a 5 number of components to that, and one is that -- and I'm 6 -- if you need a document to refer to, one (1) of the 7 documents that we've looked at and you'll see it in your 8 black binder that you got from the Commission -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- at Tab 11, which is the general 11 Band meeting minutes from August 1st, 1995. And I'm not 12 suggesting that you go through all that, but -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- there's a few propositions that I 15 want to put to you and I just thought maybe seeing that - 16 - do you recall being at that meeting in August of '95? 17 A: I was at all Band meetings; they all 18 ran into one another at that time. I'm not kidding you. 19 Q: No, I understand that. It looked 20 like that was a pretty emotional meeting for a lot -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- of people. 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Is that right? 25 A: Probably, yeah.
1851 Q: And it seemed like some of the 2 increased tension, I just wanted to go through some of 3 the factors with you, was that there were more concerns 4 from Kettle and Stony Point Band members that they 5 weren't being allowed to go to the base? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: There was more of a concern about 8 outsiders being at the base, there was more of a concern 9 about a potential for violence? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: There's some mention in those minutes 12 of concerns mentioned that those outsiders may have a 13 claim on the land after the whole thing was done and 14 settled. 15 Was something that -- was that something 16 that you recall? 17 A: People were saying anything and 18 everything back then. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But, no outsiders would ever have a 21 claim on the land. 22 Q: From your perspective? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Okay, and we heard from Chief 25 Bressette last week that in his view, by August of 1995--
1861 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- that the Kettle and Stony Point 3 Band Council and Chief had really exhausted all of their 4 avenues to communicate with the Stoney Point group. 5 Does that accord with your recollection 6 that -- that there was pretty much no communication at 7 all going on between the two (2) groups by that time? 8 A: Well, may -- no, not all the -- no, 9 there were still members of our Council that were -- 10 could still go down to the base and talk to people. Not 11 all people. I mean, when you say Chief and Council, 12 you're talking about ten (10) people. There were still 13 some that were allowed to go down and speak to people. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: You know, so it wasn't everybody. 16 Q: Were they able to go down, sort of, 17 personally -- 18 A: Personally -- 19 Q: -- or were they able to go down as 20 representatives of the Band? 21 A: Well, generally you would go down 22 there personally but -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- then, you know, you're still 25 looked upon as a Council member from -- from Kettle and
1871 Stony Point. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But, you know, I think there was 4 still discussion going on but there just wasn't any with 5 any official discussion, but you know, like -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- people were talking back and 8 forth, different other people and whatnot. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: But you'd clearly -- leading up to 11 '95 that was probably -- that's not as bad as it got. I 12 mean, like, the discussions back and forth. After that 13 there was still, you know, there's lots of back-and-forth 14 that went on. 15 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the things that 16 we heard from Chief Bressette is that the occupation of 17 the Base really had caused some increased concerns in the 18 community around Kettle and Stony Point. 19 Did you get -- or did you hear those 20 concerns as an administrator for the Band? 21 A: Well, as an administrator, yes. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: As an administrator. I'm not saying 24 I agreed with them but -- 25 Q: Sure.
1881 A: -- I heard them. 2 Q: Yeah. And I take it that between 3 1993 and early September of 1995 those concerns 4 increased? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. And Chief Bressette also 7 talked about the occupation of the Park and its impact on 8 the Band's economic development. 9 As a Band Administrator did you share that 10 concern? 11 A: Well, like I said, the whole co- 12 management agreement was based -- our philosophy behind 13 that was to create jobs -- 14 Q: Right. 15 A: -- and create -- well, tourists 16 dollars come into our community as, well that's what 17 floats all our businesses through the summer. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: And any -- any sort of things that's 20 going to keep tourists away would definitely affect the 21 overall economic outlook of the whole community. Whereas 22 myself and my friend back there, Diane Thomas or -- well, 23 she's not there right now -- she's -- she's been the 24 Band's Economic Development Officer ever since I moved 25 home.
1891 When I moved home I convinced her to come 2 home and work as well, because she worked for the Chiefs 3 of Ontario for twelve (12) years. She's highly 4 experienced as well, like myself, leaving the community 5 and working out there. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Our whole philosophy was to establish 8 a good economic base for the community through tourism 9 and development because that's where most of our dollars 10 are going to come from. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: And it did -- it would have hurt a 13 lot of plans, things that we were discussing. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: We even sat on the North Lambton 16 Shores Economic Development Committee. We tried to 17 become part of the business development for the whole 18 area. So, those -- those were the kinds of things that 19 were important to us, was to put our people to work. 20 Because when you have people that are making money -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- that can support their families, 23 you have a much happier community. 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: When you have people that live on
1901 welfare and cannot afford to buy stuff, it's -- it's just 2 it's -- 3 Q: It's very difficult. 4 A: -- very sad. So, it was our whole 5 outlook on life when we teamed up together in Kettle 6 Point, was to create jobs, create jobs, create jobs, any 7 way we can; we found a friend in Les. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: Diane's father worked there for 10 years. My father worked with Les for years. And it 11 seemed a natural thing. He knew of our family, Hey Les 12 let's sit down and talk about some really good ideas, and 13 that's what we did. 14 Q: Right. Now, one (1) of the documents 15 that we've been provided by Commission Counsel is an 16 article from the Windsor Star dated September 12th, 1995, 17 called, Trouble overshadowing Reserve success story. 18 And for the assistance of Counsel, it is 19 Document 2001771. 20 And I'm wondering if we can -- it will 21 just take a sec -- we can get it on the screen and you 22 can see that, because this is a -- an article in which it 23 looked like you were speaking to some of the concerns 24 regarding economic development. 25 Now, it's a little bit hard probably for
1911 you to see that? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: There. That will be a little bit 4 easier. But it talks, partway -- right at the start of 5 the column that you can see on the left-hand side. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: It talked about a construction 8 project that the Band had bid on? 9 A: Yes, I know what you're talking 10 about. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: The Mazaynko (phonetic) water main, 13 yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And it looked from the article 15 as though -- 16 A: We lost the bid. 17 Q: -- you had lost the bid. And it 18 looked like in that article that it -- you attributed at 19 least part of losing the bid to some of the community 20 concerns that had come out about the occupation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is that right? 23 A: Yes. Because I think our bid was 24 four hundred thousand dollars ($400,000) lower -- 25 Q: Yes.
1921 A: -- than the lowest -- than the 2 contractor that got the bid -- 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: -- and they told us it was because we 5 couldn't guarantee, like, but what we -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- had was we had an actual credit 8 letter from our bank because normally when you take on a 9 big job, you've got to have the insurance to say you're 10 going to get the job done; dada dada dada. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: And because our insurance company -- 13 we weren't set up to do that, to provide that guarantee-- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- we went straight to the bank to 16 get a letter for a line of credit of four hundred 17 thousand dollars ($400,000) -- not the four hundred 18 thousand (400,00), I can't remember, but the bid was just 19 under -- just over a million. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: But we wanted to install a water main 22 even from the beginning of Stoney Point to the end of 23 Stoney Point because Bosanquet was looping -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- and at that point we would have
1931 hired a lot of the guys from the Base. You know why? 2 Because when Kettle Point -- we built a 3 new water treatment plant and a new sewage treatment 4 plant, probably about five thousand dollars ($5,000) 5 worth -- $5 million worth of new infrastructure at Kettle 6 Point when I moved home. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: So, I became very familiar on 9 infrastructure and how to build it and how much it costs 10 and water mains and sewer plants and everything and Ken 11 Jackson, who worked off the reserve and was a member of 12 the union, he did all of this work. 13 When I moved home, because I grew up with 14 Ken, Ken came and saw me and Glenn -- Glenn George, they 15 came and saw me at the Band Office and they said, Hey, 16 Liz, you know you guys are doing a lot of work, how come 17 you're not hiring us? Christ, we're in a union, we know 18 how to do all this. I said, I don't know, I'll find out. 19 And that's what we did. Rather than 20 tender our jobs outside Kettle Point, I hired Ken and 21 Glenn George and Dan George, all the guys who knew how to 22 put water main in our community and they did the whole 23 job for us. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: And then we had to put a water main
1941 in London Road, which crossed between Kettle Road and 2 Bosanquet territory and after it was all done, because 3 Bosanquet sent their engineers and inspectors down there 4 at least every couple of weeks to see how the job was 5 going, they told us they never saw a job done as well as 6 what our guys in Kettle Point did. 7 So, I thought, well, if -- if we can be 8 that good, maybe we can make a business out of it and 9 keep these guys employed, keep them closer to their 10 homes. Like, Ken said, I would rather drive five (5) 11 minutes to work to make forty-five dollars ($45.00) an 12 hour than have to go two (2) hours outside my community 13 to work for the union and come home, which made a lot of 14 sense. So, that's what we did. 15 We bid on the Bosanquet water main and our 16 bid was four hundred thousand dollars ($400,000) lower 17 and it was still awarded to the other -- the lowest 18 bidder. 19 But, were actually -- wanted to install 20 the water main from where they were passing by on the 21 highway in front of Stoney Point and the last I heard was 22 the guys down there going to try and say, Well, you know, 23 we're going to build it. Like, they picked up on my idea 24 after our bid was, you know, threw out or whatever you 25 want to say, not accepted.
1951 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, I 4 wonder if we can have that article made the next exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-264. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we have a 7 hard copy of it? 8 MS. KAREN JONES: I'll give one. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-264: Document 2001771 September 11 12/'95 "Trouble Overshadowing 12 Reserve's Success Story" 13 Windsor Star 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: And lastly, Ms. Stevens, there was 17 another article that I just wanted you to have a look at, 18 if you would, because it had some comments attributed to 19 you. 20 And this is an article entitled, Rebels 21 Without a Cause and it's Inquiry Document Number 2001764. 22 Mr. Commissioner, this is a document we've looked at many 23 times in this Proceeding, but doesn't seen to have been 24 made an exhibit. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in the
1961 binder? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in our 4 binder? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: It's not in your 6 binder. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, just on 8 -- okay. 2001764. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: And it's a little -- we'll go through 14 it, Ms. Stevens, but you'll see on the very left-hand 15 side, on the left-hand column this is an article dated 16 September 7th, but it appears as though the bulk of 17 research for it was done before September 7th. You'll 18 see that, starting at the second paragraph -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- it starts quoting you as Band 21 Administrator saying the invasion and occupation Monday 22 was sparked by a dispute between her people and a 23 breakaway faction intent on separating to establish its 24 own nation. 25 Was that kind of -- and then it goes on to
1971 talk about the occupation -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- in the Provincial Park? 4 A: I don't know if I called it an 5 invasion, but yes, that's basically it. It's -- 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: -- you've had -- you've had people -- 8 the Stoney Point people, yes, that want -- 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: Yes. Well we all know that. It's 11 been said a number of times here -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- and it's going to be said for a 14 number of years to come. 15 Q: Sure. And then if we go down to the 16 bottom of the column on the left-hand side, it talks -- 17 there's talk about a referendum -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- you'll see that in the second 20 bottom paragraph -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then it says: 23 "To be recognized by the Federal 24 Government, a vote in favour would have 25 to be passed by 61 percent of eligible
1981 voters." 2 And -- 3 A: That could be a misprint. It's 4 normally 51 percent. 5 Q: Okay. And then it says: 6 "Thunder says the dissidents could 7 barely muster the support of 20 8 percent, if that." 9 A: Yes, at that -- yes. 10 Q: Was that a sort of a straw poll you 11 had taken or how did you come up with that? 12 A: Probably a straw pole. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Knowing that, you know, knowing it 15 would have been very difficult to get the -- the required 16 number of votes for a referendum on separation from the 17 people. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And then if we go to the second page 21 of the article. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And you'll see on the left-hand
1991 side -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: It says: 4 "They are", 5 And it refers to the Stoney Point group: 6 "They are not supported by the elected 7 Chief and Council, said Thunder. Our 8 leaders do not agree with the 9 lawlessness, it boils down to greed. 10 And she said the renegades believe the 11 Stoney Point people have never been 12 given a fair shake in Band life or 13 Native politics." 14 A: I don't think I called them 15 renegades, but -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I would agree, yeah, like I said, as 18 -- as I said before, there were a lot of concerns -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- about the things that were 21 happening down at the base, from the perspective of the 22 Chief and Council of the community and stated at this 23 general Band membership meeting that -- 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: I was repeating a fact. I'm not --
2001 Q: Right. 2 A: -- saying it's my opinion -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- I'm repeating a fact. 5 Q: But that fairly represents the view-- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- of Band and Council? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And I take it that you would 10 have given similar interviews during the -- you'd talked 11 a little bit about the flurry of activity after the Park 12 was occupied on September the 4th. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: I take it during the 4th, 5th and 6th 15 you would have given a number of interviews that set out 16 the Band and Council position? 17 A: Probably. 18 Q: Yeah, okay. And Mr. Commissioner, if 19 we could have that document, Rebels Without a Cause, made 20 the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-265. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-265. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-265: Document 2001764 September 25 07/'95 Windsor Star Article
2011 "Rebel's Without A Cause" 2 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And I don't have any 4 further questions, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 I think, Mr. Downard...? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you, 12 Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 15 Q: And good afternoon, Ms. Stevens. My 16 name's Peter Downard and I act for the former Ontario 17 Premier, Mike Harris. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And I'd just like to ask you a few 20 questions -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- about your evidence. I was 23 interested to hear about the study you were involved in, 24 that you told us about that led to the production of the 25 map.
2021 A: Yes. 2 Q: Perhaps we'll have a chance to look 3 at that map at some point in the Inquiry. Are there 4 other documents that exist that relate to that study that 5 you were involved in? 6 A: It was called the Infrastructure 7 Study and what it was, is it was a study to rebuild 8 Stoney Point as it if was never taken away in '42 to 9 today's present day. 10 So, there's probably all kinds of 11 documents, old minutes and it's where we would have got a 12 lot of the information from. 13 Q: Okay. Just what we need, some more 14 documents. 15 A: Hmm hmm. A lot of -- like I said, a 16 lot of our stuff we got out of the old Council books. 17 Would the old Council books still exist? I don't know 18 where they're stored, but the original Council books with 19 the actual handwritten stuff in it, which are very old 20 and dirty looking and they're at the Band office. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: That's where we got a lot of our 23 information from, because they actually -- at a Council 24 meeting, you actually kept a written record right in the 25 book, as opposed to like, Fay, taking a record now and
2031 typing it up and distributing it and whatnot. 2 Q: Right. And I understood your 3 evidence to be that in the course of that work -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- you determined that there were one 6 thousand five hundred and forty-two (1,542) members of 7 the Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- who had family ties to location 10 ticket holders -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- on the Stoney Point lands? 13 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And as at what time or what year did 15 you draw that conclusion? 16 A: I believe we did our study -- it was 17 done by '94. Probably took us about two and a half (2 18 1/2) years to do. Because it was a volunteer -- we were 19 just -- second-generation children, needed because we 20 cared about everything. 21 We wanted to, you know, we cared about our 22 land down there, about what happened, and we wanted to 23 visualize in our minds what our community might have 24 looked like today if the Army hadn't -- if the DND hadn't 25 appropriated it.
2041 So, we started off with the nineteen (19) 2 homes that were there. We basically said, Okay this is 3 the amount of people we feel that might have stayed there 4 and we came to the conclusion there might have been a 5 hundred forty-seven (147) homes down there. We added 6 that figure up based on whatever Indian Affairs gives the 7 Band for housing. And we -- you know, that -- we were 8 calculating a budget to determine how much money we 9 needed. 10 We put a school down there, a Band office, 11 a fire hall, a health centre, just very similar to the 12 buildings in Kettle Point. Because who knows, that's -- 13 maybe that's how it might have looked if they hadn't had 14 taken the land in '42. We don't know. 15 We were just, whatever you would say, 16 speculating that it could possibly have looked like this. 17 We would have had paved roads here. We might have had a 18 sewage treatment plant and a water treatment plan and 19 water main. 20 And we worked with an engineer to come up 21 with how much -- and I believe we came up with about $33 22 million or something like that. 23 Q: Okay. When Chief Tom Bressette was 24 here last week -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2051 Q: -- he said that he estimated the Band 2 membership in 1995 to be about eighteen hundred (1,800) 3 or nineteen hundred (1,900) people? 4 A: In 1995, yeah. More like probably, 5 yeah, about eighteen hundred (1,800), so... 6 Q: So, when we talk about one thousand 7 five hundred forty-two (1,542) Band members, we're -- 8 we're pushing, what, 80 percent of the membership? 9 A: Yeah. Oh yeah. You see, because 10 you've got to remember that there were people from -- 11 like, my grandfather was from Stoney Point, my 12 grandmother was from Kettle Point. So, you know -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- you've got two (2) land bases, 15 but -- 16 Q: You've got people -- 17 A: -- you've got a mixture of people 18 married in together from the two (2) communities. And 19 you -- when you sit down and look at my grandfather -- my 20 grandfather Sheldon and my gram, Jeannette, who had ten 21 (10) kids. My dad, there's eleven (11) of us, you know, 22 married somebody from Kettle Point, and they have kids. 23 So it's hard to distinguish anymore. 24 You're looking at my father the first 25 generation, I the second, my children the third, my
2061 grandchildren the fourth, you're into five (5) 2 generations from '42. 3 Q: Sure. And when you're also thinking 4 about the people who may have an emotional connection to 5 the land, as distinct from a location ticket connection-- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- there also to be taken into 8 account people who had family members who were living in 9 the lands but didn't hold location tickets, right? 10 A: Yes. There were a few instances like 11 that where there were members that lived down there but 12 they held no location ticket. And on the other hand, you 13 had members who held location tickets for lots only and 14 didn't live down there. 15 Q: Right. Yes. We've heard that. 16 A: Now, you know what the Department of 17 Indian Affairs is like. Basically, you know, they 18 screwed us up. I mean, like with the Indian Act and 19 everything. 20 I don't think we would have had all those 21 problems if people were allowed to run their own lives 22 all -- all since 1827, you know. Location ticket here, 23 what is it for, you know, all this mumbo jumbo, all of 24 this big mess that we have to sort out ourselves now, 25 yeah.
2071 Q: And I'd take it you'd agree that it's 2 very regrettable that the Federal Government isn't 3 appearing in this Inquiry? 4 A: Oh, very regrettable. Very, very 5 regrettable because they should have been the first ones 6 here. 7 Q: Now, I'd like to ask you a little bit 8 about these messages to the -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- the media that you -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- conveyed at the time of the -- the 13 initial Park occupation. 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And, as I understand your evidence, 16 it's very clear that in early September 1995 you were 17 quite a way away from ever being a councillor. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: You were an employee -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- of the Band -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- and playing a significant role, 24 but you took your direction from the Chief and Council? 25 A: Yes.
2081 Q: And the messages that you gave out to 2 the public were the messages that you were directed to 3 give out -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- and that would be by either the 6 Chief or by Council members? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I wanted to bring you back to the 9 document which was just marked Exhibit 265, which is that 10 article that was headed, Rebels Without A Cause? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And do you have that -- 13 A: I don't know what it would be under? 14 Q: Well, I can give you -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 16 think so, we don't have a hard copy of it here. 17 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Okay. This is a 18 different document number, but it's the same article. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, thanks. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is now 22 Exhibit 265. 23 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD:
2091 Q: And I -- I take it from your answers 2 to Ms. Jones that you accept that you spoke to the author 3 of this article at or around September 6th of '95? 4 A: Probably, hmm hmm. 5 Q: And the messages -- the messages that 6 you conveyed in this article -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- would have been messages that you 9 were directed to provide in response to inquiries, 10 correct? 11 A: Probably, hmm hmm. 12 Q: And I'd like to refer you to the -- 13 the third column on the page -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- and you'll see there's a -- a 16 paragraph that starts, "An archeological study"? 17 A: Oh, yes, okay. 18 Q: And just to read it on the record, it 19 says, quote: 20 "An archeological study turned up no 21 evidence the land was ever a tribal 22 burial ground. That has been one (1) 23 of the motives attributed to the 24 occupiers for taking over the Park. 25 Thunder confirms that there has been no
2101 historical land claim on the Park land 2 and she added that native elders are 3 unaware of any burial grounds there." 4 A: Could be. 5 Q: Now, just looking at the last 6 sentence in that paragraph -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- that attributes words to you -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- is it likely that that is what you 11 said to the reporter? 12 A: Probably, hmm hmm. 13 Q: Okay. And I'd like to refer you to 14 another newspaper article. And before I -- I do, I want 15 to ask you about a gentleman named Victor Gulewitsch who 16 we've heard about previously. 17 You know Victor Gulewitsch? 18 A: Yes, hmm hmm. 19 Q: And I understand he was a historical 20 researcher who was employed by the Band in 1995 and at 21 other times? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And are you aware of any discussions 24 that were held with Mr. Gulewitsch at or around the time 25 of the initial Park occupation regarding any statements
2111 that he should make to the media? 2 A: I -- I don't know, I really don't 3 know. Tom relied on Victor for a lot of the historical 4 research. Whether they had discussions, I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. Did Mr. Gulewitsch speak to 6 the media regarding such matters from time to time? 7 A: Probably, I can't think of specific 8 things, but you know, how many historical documents can 9 you read when you've got a million other things to do, 10 you know? 11 Q: Okay. Okay. All right. Well, I'd 12 like to just show you an article very briefly, which is 13 called burial ground claim questions from the London Free 14 Press dated September 7th of 1995. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 22 Q: Now, you'll see that this is an 23 article from the London Free Press -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- dated September 7th, 1995 and
2121 you'll see that the first two (2) paragraphs read as 2 follows, and I quote: 3 "There's some speculation the Natives 4 occupying Ipperwash Provincial Park are 5 there because a sacred burial ground is 6 on the land, but Victor Gulewitsch, 7 land claims researcher for the Kettle 8 and Stony Point band says he can find 9 no evidence of a burial ground at that 10 -- at the site." 11 Now, does that assist you in recalling 12 whether there were any discussions with Mr. Gulewitsch 13 around this time about whether there was a burial ground 14 there or whether he was directed to make any statements 15 to the media in that regard? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Okay. It -- this statement would 18 certainly appear to be consistent with the message -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- that you were directed to convey, 21 correct? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Can you verbalize the answer, please. 24 A: Yes, I really don't recall, but like 25 I said, we were trying to determine after the occupation
2131 that there was a burial ground, and nothing that we could 2 do could confirm it. 3 I don't know, until the information showed 4 up from the -- from Indian Affairs if -- like you said a 5 few -- or the other gentleman said a few days after that. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And so the -- the position, though, 9 of the Band at the time that this unfolds is exactly as 10 stated in these articles, right? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: No burial ground. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Do you recall whether any of the 19 people who were living on the Stoney Point lands at the 20 time, had attempted to make any contact with the Kettle 21 and Stony Point Band, prior to the commencement of the 22 occupation of the Park, to seek any sort of assistance in 23 protecting a burial ground out -- that they claimed was 24 in the Park? 25
2141 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I can't recall. It would have only - 4 - it would have only came from some of the Council 5 members that were still having any sort of conversation 6 with the people from the base. 7 Mainly if -- whatever Bonnie Bressette 8 said, if you pose the same question to her. 9 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 I think that's it, is it? I think that's it except for 13 Mr. Henderson if he has any questions. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No questions, 18 thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 20 questions? 21 Ms. Hensel...? 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I have no further 23 questions, but I would like to thank Ms. Stevens for her 24 assistance here today. Thank you very much. 25 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
2151 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Ms. Stevens. You're finished now, thank you 3 for coming in -- 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 6 helping us. Thank you. 7 8 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're now at 11 almost a quarter to 4:00. I think this would be a good 12 time to take an afternoon break and then we'll continue 13 after that. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 3:44 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 3:59 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. Commissioner, 24 I just have a small housekeeping matter. 25 One (1) of the documents referred to by
2161 Mr. Downard, Inquiry Document Number 4000340, an article 2 entitled, Burial Ground Claim Questioned, dated September 3 7th, 1995 from the London Free Press, if we could get 4 that entered as an exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-266, your 6 Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-266. 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-266: Document 4000340 Sept. 07/'95 13 London Free Press "Burial 14 Ground Claim Questioned 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Worme...? 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. 20 We call as the next witness for the 21 Commission, Joseph Chico Ralf. 22 Mr. Ralf, Mr. Registrar, will swear on the 23 bible. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. Ralf. 25 MR. JOSEPH CHICO RALF: Good afternoon.
2171 THE REGISTRAR: Please, take the bible in 2 your right hand and state your name in full please. 3 MR. JOSEPH CHICO RALF: Joseph Chico 4 Ralf. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 6 7 JOSEPH CHICO RALF, Sworn 8 9 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Mr. Ralf, I understand you are from 11 Wisauksing First Nation that is located near Perry Sound, 12 Ontario? 13 A: Yes, I am. 14 Q: And that you were originally a member 15 of the Tyendinaga First Nation? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that is a Mohawk community? 18 A: Yeah, we're upre (phonetic) Mohawks 19 of Aekwenti (phonetic). 20 Q: And you have relocated and -- and are 21 currently a Band member at Wisauksing? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. You presently, sir, are 24 forty-eight (48) years of age, birth date October 18, 25 1956?
2181 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you are presently self-employed 3 as a contractor engaged in home renovations? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: In understand as well, Mr. Ralf, that 6 you had engaged in a policing career in 1983? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that you had received your 9 training at the Ontario Police College and had received a 10 certificate of completion as a result of that training? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You have training, sir, in standard 13 criminal investigations? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the preservation of crime scenes, 16 you have firearm training as well? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: CPR, first aid? Essentially, the 19 standard training that any police officer, that is 20 provided a warrant card in this Province, would undergo? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Following your police training, sir, 23 you were with the Oneida Police Force at the Oneida 24 Settlement and served there in the capacity as a First 25 Nations constable for eight and a half (8 1/2) years?
2191 A: Yeah, that's approximately. 2 Q: All right. And I understand as well 3 that you had then transferred to the Wisauksing Police 4 Service in late 1992? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that you ended your police career 7 in the summer of 1995, just shortly before the events 8 that bring us all here? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: All right. You became involved in 11 these events, that is in the Ipperwash incidents in 12 September of 1995, sir. 13 I wonder if you might just take it from 14 there and tell us how it was that you became involved? 15 A: I was contacted by Bruce Elijah 16 through the Chiefs of Ontario office advising of a 17 shooting in Ipperwash. 18 Q: Do you recall the date that you were 19 contacted by Bruce Elijah regarding the shooting in 20 Ipperwash? 21 A: Approximately 14th or 15th, 22 September. 23 Q: All right. And prior to being 24 advised of the shooting in Ipperwash, what were you aware 25 of, sir, in relation to the -- the events?
2201 A: I just heard that there was a -- an 2 incident and a shooting and one (1) of our members lost 3 their life. Beyond that, I knew no more. 4 Q: Were you familiar with the -- with 5 the situation at the Army Camp for example? 6 A: No, I was not aware. 7 Q: Were you aware of the -- well, had 8 you ever been to the Kettle Point or Kettle and Stony 9 Point First Nation or that community? 10 A: When I was a younger man and used to 11 play sports, I came down and played in some ball 12 tournaments, maybe twenty-five (25) ago, when I still 13 could run. 14 Q: All right. And I understand that as 15 a result of being contacted by Bruce Elijah on 16 approximately the -- I believe you said the 13th of 14th 17 of September -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- that you left your community of 20 Wisauksing, and perhaps you can tell us what you did from 21 there? 22 A: I attended Toronto at the Chiefs of 23 Ontario office and had a brief meeting. And I met with a 24 member, Richard Powless (phonetic), one of Gord Peter's 25 assistants, and he -- he just briefed me very little on
2211 what was -- occurred. And then I proceeded on down to 2 Oneida First Nation to meet with Bruce Elijah. 3 Q: All right. Did you meet with Bruce 4 Elijah? 5 A: We -- we arrive and we -- I was met 6 and then we were -- I was briefed more on the situation 7 at Ipperwash. 8 Q: Okay. Do you recall what it was in 9 terms of the situation that you briefed on at Ipperwash? 10 Do you recall what the briefing, even in 11 general terms, was about? 12 A: I was more briefed to the -- the 13 tragedy that took place, the loss of life of Dudley, and 14 that the Park area was secured by some peacekeepers that 15 attended after the incident, and that OPP abandoned the - 16 - the area of the incident and at that point that 17 everything was secured by the peacekeepers. 18 Q: Okay. I want to come back to the -- 19 to the issue of peacekeepers a bit later on, but after 20 being -- being briefed by -- by Mr. Elijah to that 21 effect, what did you do? 22 A: I attended with Bruce down to 23 Ipperwash Camp and that was my first experience ever of 24 being there; I was never present there at any time 25 before. And we proceeded into the Camp where I was -- we
2221 were greeted at the gate by some of the people that was 2 manning the gate and I was introduced to several members 3 of Stoney Point and some of the members of the George 4 family and participants that was at the incident. 5 Q: Okay, continue. 6 A: And we -- we had further meetings, 7 like -- like discussions Bruce and I and Bob Antone and 8 was -- was that -- that was present and -- and then 9 Gordon Peters arrived. 10 And for the first time when I was there I 11 just more or less familiarized myself with the people 12 inside the Camp and I just wanted to get the feeling and 13 -- and of how they were -- they were doing themselves. 14 I was concerned of their well-being, their 15 safety and it showed from when I had conversations with 16 them about -- because I understand it through my policing 17 career of the stressful nature of the incident that took 18 place. 19 And, like, I did -- like I mentioned 20 earlier, I spoke with several of the members that was 21 present during the incident and then we -- we had a 22 discussion with Bruce concerning -- there was a -- 23 negotiations for -- because the site-scene was still 24 protected by the peacekeepers and we had to negotiate to 25 get an understanding for the SIU and OPP identification
2231 unit to attend the scene and do their investigation. 2 Q: Okay. And you were involved in those 3 negotiations, were you? 4 A: Yes, I was. 5 Q: All right. Did you stay at the Camp 6 -- at the Army Camp on that day? 7 A: We had our meetings and negotiations 8 for a time and then I left the Camp that evening -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- to return to Oneida. 11 Q: All right. I'm not sure if you told 12 us the date, but do you recall the date, then, that you 13 would have been to the Camp for the first time and then 14 left to go to Oneida? 15 A: If I recall, it would be the 16th -- 16 15th or 16th. It might be the 15th. 17 Q: All right. And did you return to the 18 -- to the Army Camp? 19 A: After attending Oneida, we returned 20 on the 16th. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps I should ask you, who 22 did you attend to Oneida with from the Army Camp? 23 A: When I was returning; with Bob 24 Antone? 25 Q: All right. Now, you didn't travel
2241 down to the Army Camp with Bob Antone? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And I take it from that 4 that he was already at the Army Camp? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. So, you returned to 7 Oneida with Bob Antone and what happens? 8 A: Could I refer to my notes? 9 Q: Now, Mr. Commissioner, there has been 10 a series of personal notes that this Witness had provided 11 to me on Thursday last, that is on March the 3rd, and we 12 had distributed the same electronically. I believe that 13 that was on Friday the 4th. 14 They are reproduced, Mr. Commissioner, at 15 Tab 11 of -- of your binder and it is those notes that 16 Mr. Ralf wishes now to -- to refer to. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume 18 there's no objection to that? 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 21 Q: Perhaps I can just take you through a 22 couple of Inquiries with respect to those notes. Were 23 those notes made at the time of the observations that are 24 recorded therein? 25 A: Yes, promptly after.
2251 Q: All right. And I understand that you 2 have the original of those notes in front of you, Mr. 3 Ralph? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: Perhaps, Commissioner, we could -- I 6 could ask that those would be made an exhibit. 7 And if I'm not mistaken that that would 8 then be P-267? 9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, indeed. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What package 11 of notes? 12 MR. DONALD WORME: The -- the entire 13 package of notes. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-267. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-267. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-267: Joseph Ralf's Notes 15:15 18 hrs, September 16/'95 to 19 19:10 hours September 19/'95 20 21 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps, Mr. 22 Registrar, we would have the originals marked as the 23 exhibit, but for the time being Mr. Ralf will refer to 24 his originals? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
2261 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: As you can see, my age is 6 showing. I got to wear my glasses or I can't see. 7 Upon returning to the encampment, I was 8 riding with Robert Antone and we were travelling on the 9 Northville Road, travelling to the Camp and upon coming 10 to the -- to that area, I observed several OPP unit 11 vehicles at every corner, my -- I -- monitoring the 12 situation on the outer perimeter of the encampment. 13 And upon passing several of them, I 14 observed that one was pulling out as we were going by and 15 I made a comment to Robert Antone, to Bob, that they're 16 going to follow us, most likely they'll probably stop us. 17 And we travelled a little further, maybe - 18 - maybe one (1) concession road approximately and it was 19 -- at the markings here I made a note at the top, if you 20 note at the top, it was at the corner of Ravenswood line 21 and Northville Road, and it was approximately -- my time 22 was at 15:15 hours that we were stopped by several units. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What day is 24 this? 25
2271 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: What date is this, Mr. Ralf? 3 A: Be on the 16th. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: September 5 16th? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 THE WITNESS: And we were -- we were 12 stopped by the OPP cruisers. There was a cruiser in 13 front of our truck, because we were travelling in a 14 little, red Ford pick-up. 15 And there was four (4) officers that was 16 in a van that came after and surrounded the vehicle. 17 There was a Constable Milson (phonetic) approached the 18 vehicle and asked Bob Antone to get out and to identify 19 himself and to -- and identified myself. 20 I was advised to put my hands on the roof 21 of the vehicle. During this whole -- this time, the OPPs 22 had their guns drawn on us. There was one (1) -- an 23 officer in front of the vehicle with the --a rifle 24 pointed in towards us and there was officers on the side 25 of the vehicle with off -- with their weapons drawn on --
2281 on both myself and Bob at that time. 2 And Bob was subsequently asked to get out 3 of the vehicle. That officer Milson recognized who 4 myself was as a police officer. Through in the past 5 years he came from St. Thomas Detachment through myself 6 as playing hockey with the OPP to district Detachment 7 team and he was subsequently under the impression that I 8 was still, excuse me, still a police officer and then I 9 informed him that I was no longer on the Force. 10 They did not ask me to remove myself from 11 the vehicle. 12 There was an officer with a drawn revolver 13 to -- to my right, pointing at me and he was very nervous 14 and shaking and I asked him not to point the gun at me. 15 I made a comment to him, I told him that it makes me 16 nervous him pointing the -- the gun at me like that 17 because maybe it could go off and he might shoot another 18 one of our members. 19 His response was he did not want to be 20 there, he was just sent to that area, he didn't want 21 anything to do with it. He was very distraught. Myself, 22 like -- at that time they removed Bob from the vehicle 23 and they had a brief search of the inside of our vehicle. 24 We had no weapons, or they found nothing at that point. 25
2291 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: All right. You had been asked to 3 identify yourself. I take it that you both did? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was there any further 6 conversation? 7 A: With myself they -- they didn't 8 bother with me once they just knew who I was, they did no 9 further comments to myself. 10 Q: All right. Did you hear any 11 conversations as between Mr. Antone and anybody else? 12 A: No. They were outside the vehicle. 13 Q: I take it that you were allowed to 14 continue on your way? 15 A: Well, before we left there was 16 another vehicle, a van that was stopped. And I was 17 inside the -- the pickup and I was watching them, and 18 they had two (2), there was a male and a female and a 19 young child, that was asked to -- they had them out of 20 their vehicle and searched them. 21 And the OPP subsequently searched the 22 vehicle and removed many of their articles and removed -- 23 from where I was positioned I was -- I observed they were 24 moving some of our sacred items out of the vehicle, more 25 -- in a most -- more of a disrespectful manner as it
2301 appeared to myself. 2 And the people was very distraught. I 3 could see them and hear. There was words being said but 4 I couldn't be clear to what was said at that time but I 5 could see they were very distraught at the time. 6 Q: I take it the search was completed at 7 some point? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you have indicated in your notes 10 that there was the search completed and nothing found 11 incriminating? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. And I take it at that 14 point you were allowed to go on your way? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Can you tell us what 17 happened after that? 18 A: Well, just -- just before we just get 19 ready to leave then there was a gentleman taking pictures 20 from behind us, of the incident from the Toronto Star. 21 When he went by the vehicle I recognized he had a -- a 22 press pass tag on his chest and I recognized him. He was 23 taking some pictures of the incident. And there was just 24 arrival of some of the people from the Camp. 25 This incident roughly took thirty-five
2311 (35) to forty (40) minutes. And there was word I guess 2 that -- I was told later there was word to the Camp what 3 was happening there. So that people from some of the -- 4 people from the Camp was coming over. And one (1) of -- 5 like, Gordon Peters, the Regional Chief, was present 6 there at the time, just as we were getting ready to leave 7 and everything was starting to disperse, and then we were 8 on our way. 9 Q: And I understand that you were on 10 your way back to the Camp to continue with the 11 negotiations that you had just told us about earlier? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you tell us what your involvement 14 was in -- in those negotiations? 15 A: I was subsequently asked the 16 questions of, like, my -- for the investigative part of 17 it for the scene, to assist with -- because ultimately we 18 knew that there would be an investigation with the SIU 19 and the OPP Identification Unit. 20 And we were discussing on an arrangement 21 that the First Nation peoples, like the Stoney Point 22 people, could be represented and their -- the best 23 interests of the incident to be -- to their best 24 interest. 25 And that was basically my know --
2321 understanding. 2 Q: I want to turn your attention, Mr. 3 Ralf, to Tab 9 of the -- and I'm going to suggests to you 4 that there are two (2) what are titled "Memorandums of 5 Understanding" between the First Nations people at Stoney 6 Point and the Ontario Provincial Police on conditions for 7 conducting a joint identification investigation of the 8 physical site and circumstances relating to the death of 9 Anthony Dudley George and related incidents. 10 Is this the Memorandum of Understanding 11 that you're referring to? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: And, in fact, at Tab 9 there would 14 appear to be two (2) documents, neither of which are 15 signed, yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: If I could just turn your attention 20 to Tab 6, there's a document there, titled "A three (3) 21 day joint investigation relating to the death of Anthony 22 Dudley George and related incidents", marked 23 confidential. 24 For the assistance of Counsel, that is 25 Inquiry Document 6000335.
2331 Now, firstly with respect to that document 2 at Tab 6, do you recognize that, first of all? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And how is it that you recognize 5 that? 6 A: That -- that is -- this is the 7 document that I made the report with, because this is the 8 signed document that is signed by the -- Chief Coles and 9 Bonnie Bressette and Warren Connor. 10 Q: I was just going to turn you to that, 11 three (3) pages in, pages 3 through 5, would appear to be 12 a three (3) page -- three (3) page copy of that 13 Memorandum of Understanding and it bears the date of 14 signature, September 17th, 1995. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I understand, Mr. Ralph, that you 20 have copies of this document that you had -- that you 21 have with you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Again, I'm talking about the document 24 at Tab 6. 25 A: Yes.
2341 Q: I wonder if you could produce that 2 for us, please. And, Commissioner, I'm going to ask that 3 that be marked as the next exhibit. It'll be P-228. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-268. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 6 P-268. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-268. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-268: Document 600335 three Day 10 joint Investigation relating 11 to the death of Anthony 12 Dudley George and related 13 incidents. 14 15 MR. IAN MCGILP: Excuse me, Mr. 16 Commissioner, I'm just wondering -- I have a -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 18 McGilp...? 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: The tab's not 20 corresponding to what you're calling. Can I look at your 21 index? 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, by all means. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 2 to put your hand over the mic, Mr. McGilp. It's going to 3 be picked up. 4 MR. IAN McGILP: I'm sorry, Commissioner. 5 There's just some confusion about the -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. IAN MCGILP: -- tab numbers. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. McGilp was good 12 enough to point out that there is some confusion just in 13 terms of the way that our tabs are numbered. And they 14 may not necessarily correspond to his, and I will 15 certainly try to be careful so that we're all working on 16 the same page. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: In any event, you had prepared these 20 reports that are marked under Tab 6 and you have those 21 with you? 22 A: Yes, I do. I got two (2) copies. 23 Q: And that... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2361 Q: Aside from -- just let me take you 2 back to that document for a moment then. That is -- 3 you've acknowledged that that is the Memorandum of 4 Understanding that you were involved in negotiating? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And it created a certain role for 7 First Nations observers. In fact, at paragraph 4: 8 "During the joint investigation First 9 Nation observers will be present on the 10 site at all times." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And at paragraph 6, that: 13 "First Nations Constables will continue 14 to provide security of the Army Base 15 Road during the identification 16 investigation." 17 And it continues? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. I want to just refer you 20 then to the next page, just following the Memorandum of 21 Understanding, of your report, Mr. Ralf. There's a 22 document there that is entitled, Members of the Three (3) 23 Investigative Units, and a number of individuals 24 identified, including yourself? 25 A: Yes, there is.
2371 Q: You are identified there as an 2 investigator? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Did you undertake an 5 investigation in the context of this three (3) party or - 6 - three (3) party investigative team? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And would you tell us about that? 9 A: We -- I'll refer to my notes. Just - 10 - as you stated, about the three (3) teams. And in the 11 document it states also the fact that investigation would 12 commence on the 17th of September '95. Pardon me, excuse 13 me, correction, on the 18th of September '95. 14 Q: All right. And just before we go to 15 the 18th, Mr. Ralf, you have a notation on September the 16 17th, at 22:00 hours of your notes; do you see where I'm 17 referring to? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And there's reference in there to 20 your having received and -- a videotape and then viewing 21 the contents of that tape? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you have any role in preparing 24 that tape? 25 A: No, I didn't.
2381 Q: You had indicated that the 2 investigation then commenced on the 18th of September? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is that where your notes continue 5 on, on the next page? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: Would you just go ahead then and tell 8 us what happened in terms of that investigation? 9 A: At 07:30 hours we -- the First Nation 10 investigative team arrived at Kettle Point admin office 11 to meet and we had an introduction with OPP investigative 12 team and the SIU unit. And there was a briefing on First 13 Nation Territory our roles as an investigation team. And 14 70:50 (sic) hours we did a further introduction of all 15 the members involved in the investigation. 16 At 8:31 hours, at the admin office, we 17 discussed that Marvin Conner would be present with the 18 SIU and myself would work in conjunction with the O -- 19 OPP Identification Unit, team member leader. 20 And their -- just to correct -- their 21 leader, team leader was Instructor Bob Goodall 22 (phonetic). Just to add a little further is that the 23 fact, Bob Goodall was an officer at the London Detachment 24 when I was working at Oneida and over the several years 25 of him being present there we did numerous investigations
2391 together and occurrences, more serious occurrences that 2 occurred on Oneida, so during that time we had a -- a 3 working relationship. 4 So, I felt very comfortable working 5 alongside him and we communicated very well. And at 6 09:01 we attended the crime scene that was taped off for 7 investigation. 8 Q: And just so I understand what you 9 mean, we all understand, Mr. Ralf, just over your left 10 shoulder, there is a map that has been marked in these 11 Proceedings as P-23. 12 Is that the scene that you're referring 13 to? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: All right. Carry on, then. 16 A: "At 9:15 OPP Commander Bob Goodall 17 left to brief his men and the SIU team 18 that were just waiting at the outer 19 perimeter of the site. 20 At 09:32, OPP Ident returned and 21 measured out the crime scene and they 22 started logging on a map that was 23 already drawn up." 24 Q: All right. Rather than -- perhaps, 25 rather than referring to each incident, and I'm sure that
2401 you can probably read this into the record, are you able, 2 in general terms, Mr. Ralf, to take us through this -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- in terms of what the investigation 5 consisted of? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. 8 A: "At -- at 09:47 the SIU attended and 9 photographed with stills and video. 10 And Ted also was re-videoing the scene 11 for -- on behalf of the First Nation -- 12 the Stoney Point members." 13 Q: And perhaps just before we move off 14 that point, Mr. Ralf, marked as P-40 in these proceedings 15 are a series of photographs that you've had before 16 attending to the witness stand, an opportunity to review. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is there anything you can tell us 19 about those photographs you looked at? 20 A: Those photographs are correct for the 21 -- the scene of what I seen when I was there at the time. 22 Q: All right. I understand, Mr. Ralf, 23 that you were involved in the return of certain property 24 that had been taken by First Nations people? 25 A: Yes, I was.
2411 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Upon the agreement at 10:30 -- the 4 agreement of the Memorandum of Understanding that we -- 5 during the -- OPPs, when they abandoned the scene, they 6 left behind some equipment that was subsequently seized 7 by the peacekeepers and some members of the encampment. 8 And in the agreement of the Memorandum of 9 Understanding is that that equipment would be returned in 10 full to the OPPs. And there's a list of it in the 11 document that I prepared of equipment that was returned. 12 Q: And, as well, there are three (3) -- 13 there are copies of three (3) different receipts and I 14 note that two (2) of those property reports contain what 15 appears to be your signature, Mr. Ralf. 16 A: Yes, that's true. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: In the Memorandum of Understanding, 19 we had a joint agreement that when evidence or -- or any 20 equipment, like, that was returned, that any receipts or 21 copies of any -- of the evidence that would be collected 22 at the scene that I would receive a copy of it just for - 23 - to keep on file on behalf of the people at Stoney 24 Point. 25 Q: Okay.
2421 A: And I do have here copies of the 2 equipment that was returned, the original -- like, 3 copies. 4 Q: All right. You have copies of the 5 receipts -- 6 A: Of the property report. 7 Q: -- which we have copies in your 8 report. 9 A: In the report, but I have copies of 10 the originals here. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Or, not a copy, these are the 13 originals. 14 Q: Perhaps then, we might just have 15 those marked as -- as an exhibit and we can file those. 16 THE REGISTRAR: That'll be P-. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-269. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-269: Receipts OPP Property Reports 20 (3) September 18/'95 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: So, in terms of the investigation, 24 Mr. Ralf, what -- what happened next? 25 A: After the receipt was signed and
2431 turned over, at 11:20 hours, requested of Rob Goodall of 2 the OPP, the team -- the team leader requested to enter - 3 - to enter the Park to investigate. 4 There was a brown garbage dumpster that 5 was present inside. The question arose of permission to 6 enter the Park and Bonnie Bressette was advised -- Bonnie 7 Bressette advised Marvin and myself to speak to Layton 8 concerning entry. 9 At 11:25 we spoke to Layton, and in there 10 -- if I ever refer to name I'm referring to Layton 11 Elijah. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: And I spoke to Layton and discussed 14 the entry of -- and for the investigation of the dump -- 15 dumpster, and the permission was given by Layton to enter 16 on good faith. 17 Q: So in other words, there was -- there 18 was an examination of that, by way of an investigation? 19 A: Yes. Yes, there was. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And the message was subsequently 22 relayed to Bob Goodall. And there was a dumpster -- it 23 was filmed and photographed and eight (8) -- there was 24 eight (8) possible markings, and -- and six (6) paint and 25 metal samples taken by the Ident, and markings was also
2441 photographed by Jim Tobias, our photographer also. 2 Q: Okay. I understand that after that, 3 Mr. Ralf, that there was a grid pattern that was set up 4 for the search, and that in fact a search was conducted? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: In the course of that search, Mr. 7 Ralf, you had occasion to work together with the OPP and 8 SIU? 9 A: Yes, I -- like mainly because Marvin 10 was working with the SIU because of the two (2) teams, 11 that I worked alongside of Bob Goodall. And in our 12 agreement when Bob and I spoke is that any evidence that 13 would be collected would be tagged, and would not be 14 removed from the scene before -- and everyone, like the 15 three (3) parties involved had an opportunity to -- to 16 film or photo -- like film and photograph, and to make 17 note of it. 18 And that -- that was to me, a very good 19 relationship that we had, and it worked out well those 20 three (3) days of investigation. 21 Q: Okay, and over the -- over the next 22 several pages you have a number of -- a number of 23 drawings? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And those are your notes as to the
2451 grid patterns that were -- that were established with 2 respect to the scene you've identified for us? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the notations are the various 5 items that were located? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. As a result of the 8 investigation and the notes that you had made, Mr. Ralf, 9 I take it that the report that we had looked at is, in 10 fact, your report? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: And you prepared this report on the 13 basis of the notes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Mr. Ralf, having prepared that 16 report, and given the work and the effort that you were 17 involved in over the course of three (3) days, what did 18 you do with that report once it was prepared? 19 A: I wanted further information towards 20 the site, because at the time during the investigation, I 21 was not, at that time, really fully prepared with the 22 equipment that was required. So I had no -- no 23 opportunity to take any measurements or for -- of this 24 site scene and of -- of the bus, and -- and the car. 25 So, in the -- the agreement, the
2461 memorandum of understanding, there's a section at the 2 back that we talked with the SIU, that further assistance 3 would be granted by them, to assist us. 4 So, after I was -- gathered my 5 information, I wrote a letter to the Chiefs of Ontario 6 Office, the Regional Chief, Gordon Peters, requesting 7 assistance to retain those measurements, and there's a 8 copy of the letter. 9 Q: Right. Did you ever get those 10 measurements? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: And in terms of your report, on the 13 last page of that report you speak to that fact? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: All right. I understand as well, Mr. 16 Ralf, that -- that there was an examination of the car 17 and the school bus that were involved in the altercation 18 and those were examined? 19 A: Yes, there was. 20 Q: And you have made observations and 21 notes about that? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: I take it that that was done in 24 concert with this three (3) party investigative team? 25 A: Yes.
2471 Q: All right. Aside from the notes that 2 you have provided to us and the reports that -- that have 3 now been marked as an exhibit, do you have any other 4 personal notes or any other documentation, Mr. Ralf? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: All right. During your time at the 7 Ipperwash area did you observe any firearms within the 8 Army Camp or the Park areas? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: And again, just with respect to the 11 preparation of that report, what did you do with that 12 report once it was prepared? 13 A: I -- I just kept it, waiting for 14 someone to contact me. And subsequently down -- 15 approximately I'd say a year later I was contacted by the 16 George family, they were at the Chiefs of Ontario office 17 with Gordon Peters, and I met with them at the Chiefs' 18 office and I provide the George family with a copy of -- 19 of the report. 20 Q: Okay. So you were not contacted by 21 the SIU? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Or the Ontario Provincial Police? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Or the Chiefs of Ontario for that
2481 matter? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. If I can just get one (1) 4 moment. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Did you have any other further 9 involvement in this matter before being contacted to 10 attend here, Mr. Ralf? 11 A: No, I haven't. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Those are 13 all the questions that I have in-chief, Mr. Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 Does anyone have any questions for this witness? Yes, 16 Mr. Klippenstein, how long might you be? 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Ten (10) to 18 twenty (20) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 20 Rosenthal...? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Three (3) to five 22 (5) minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can't you be 24 more precise? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Three (3) minutes
2491 and fifty-seven (57) seconds. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 3 Jackson...? 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Possibly five 5 (5) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 McGilp...? 8 MR. IAN MCGILP: Twenty (20) minutes, 9 twenty-five (25). 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many? 11 Twenty (20)? 12 MR. IAN MCGILP: Twenty (20) or twenty- 13 five (25) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20). 15 Well, I understand that we only have one (1) witness for 16 tomorrow. Is that correct, Mr. Millar? In other words, 17 there's no reason to go late, we're going to have lots of 18 time. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. We have just Mr. 20 Watts (phonetic) for tomorrow. As you know, we 21 anticipate we will have Mr. Elijah on Wednesday and Mr. 22 Antone on Friday. 23 And because of the -- their availability 24 we didn't want to -- they're only available Wednesday and 25 Thursday, we didn't want to have witnesses we're going to
2501 have to split up, so we may have a short day. But 2 they'll be just Mr. Watts and then there's a gentleman 3 coming from Toronto to make submissions, as well, about 4 the issue of Mr. Watt's evidence tomorrow so. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's a 6 quarter of 5:00 now. We could do Mr. Klippenstein, if 7 you would like to get yours done and finish that and then 8 we'll start tomorrow at nine o'clock with the others. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm in your 10 hands. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We usually 12 adjourn at five o'clock, so let's continue. You said ten 13 (10) to twenty (20) minutes, so we'll go until you 14 finish. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I have a 16 feeling if I'm longer than fifteen (15) minutes I'm going 17 to get some dirty looks. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, 19 you're not going to get the hook, but it is a quarter to. 20 We should be able to stay until you finish. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 25 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Ralf, my name is
2511 Murray Klippenstein, I'm one (1) of the legal counsel for 2 the Estate of Dudley George and for Sam George and his 3 brothers and sisters. 4 I'd like -- I'd like to go through a few 5 items in your report, which is Document 600035 and 6 entitled, A Three Day Joint Investigation Relating to the 7 Death of Anthony Dudley George and Related Incidents; do 8 you have that with you? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Exhibit 14 268. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: Thank you. I'm sorry, Exhibit 268. 18 In your report, you have several mini- 19 maps, if I can call them that, that are drawings of the 20 approximate area or different parts of the area where the 21 shooting took place; is that right? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: And then you have numbers marked on 24 those mini-maps and itemization of those numbers -- 25 A: Yes.
2521 Q: -- describing, I take it, what was 2 found at those locations; is that right? 3 A: Yes, that's true. 4 Q: There's been the assertion made that 5 the First Nation protestors, on the night of September 6 6th, fired on the police and I have some questions 7 related to that assertion. 8 Did you find any -- did you find or are 9 you aware of any findings of bullets or shell casings or 10 bullet fragments that appeared to be from First Nation 11 guns as opposed to police guns? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you find any other physical 16 evidence in your review that suggested the use of 17 firearms by First Nations protestors at that location on 18 the night of September 6th? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Are you aware of anything that anyone 21 else has found, apart from material that you found there? 22 A: I'm not aware of any. Just -- not to 23 interrupt you, but to -- if you're looking at the maps -- 24 the maps and the numbers, it can be maybe rather 25 confusing as that when the OPP had their markers for --
2531 for the items, the -- the numbers only went from one (1) 2 to fifty (50) and when -- when I made my drawings I went 3 back to number one (1), like, other numbers and in the 4 reports, like, in their agreement any evidence that they 5 removed at the back of the book, there's a document 6 stating, showing their evidence that they collected. 7 So, sometimes there can be confusion 8 because there's two (2) numbers on that page, but I -- I 9 mean if I could figure it out, I think everyone else 10 could here, but it would take a little bit more time to 11 figure it out, but the numbers and what I have in my book 12 -- in my book and my drawings, and if you relay them back 13 to the back to the Ontario Provincial Police with their 14 exhibit forms, they coincide. I just wanted to just 15 point that out. 16 Q: Okay. You may have to help me out a 17 bit more later if it comes to that, but thank you. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Then on one (1) of your mini-maps, 20 and it's the second mini-map that's entitled, Evidence 21 Collected on Road to Beach. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you have that? I see an item 24 number 26, labelled Firecracker? 25 A: Yes.
2541 Q: Can you comment a bit about that 2 item, if you -- if you recall anything about it? 3 A: Yes, we found appeared -- appeared to 4 be a -- a wrapper, like the outside casing of a 5 firecracker. 6 Q: And -- and do you actually remember 7 that item, roughly? 8 A: Roughly, very roughly, it's been a 9 long time. 10 Q: And do you remember if it was an 11 exploded or an unexploded firecracker? 12 A: I can't recall at this time. 13 Q: Okay. And do you remember or can you 14 explain from your chart, approximately where it was? I 15 see the number 26, was that in this map, was -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- that found for example, in what's 18 been referred to as the Sandy Parking Lot out -- just 19 outside Ipperwash Park, or -- or can you -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- describe where that was? 22 A: Yes, with my drawings I tried to 23 depict as close as I could to -- to -- and I was using 24 reference points like the walkway or the laneway to the 25 parking lot. And -- and as it shows in the diagram, it's
2551 across -- roughly across from the laneway to the parking 2 area, closer to the other -- the shoulder of the -- the 3 road. 4 Q: Okay. We have a -- a drawing behind 5 you, and I wonder if -- if it's all right with Commission 6 Counsel, if that's available for use. If you could look 7 at that and we'll -- we'll ask you to mark if you can, 8 where the firecracker location is, and then we'll mark 9 the map as a further exhibit. 10 Now, looking at that map are you able to 11 orient yourself and make out the location of different 12 items? 13 If the -- you see near the top of that 14 chart -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- a -- an indicator for the 17 northerly direction? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you see Army Camp Road and 20 Parkway? 21 A: Yes, I do, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Would you be able to translate 23 the location of the firecracker on your mini-map to that 24 item, if it's possible? 25 A: I -- I could show you roughly, like I
2561 said, I wasn't prepared at the time to have -- I wish I 2 would have had more time and do measurements for certain 3 items that might pertain more so. Like that to me was an 4 important item. 5 I could roughly show. 6 Q: Very roughly, to the best of your 7 ability? 8 A: To this area here. 9 Q: Okay, and could you mark -- and mark 10 a little one (1) beside that X. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 12 wonder if I could have that -- that chart now given an 13 exhibit number. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-270. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-270. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may have 19 some other markings on it before -- 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I understand. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 P-270. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-270: "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 25 September 20/'95 marked by
2571 witness Joseph Ralf March 2 07/'05 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: And can you recall, and I know it's 6 many years later, or even just recall your conclusion at 7 the time, whether the firecracker that you found there, 8 appeared to be roughly contemporaneous with the events of 9 September 4th, 5th and 6th, or would it have been 10 potentially much older? 11 A: I have no way of knowing that, or -- 12 Q: All right. Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Have you -- did you have, at the 17 time, a rough awareness of where the First Nations 18 protestors had been arranged on the night of September 19 6th, and where the police were arranged on that night? 20 Very roughly? 21 A: Yes. I was -- I was briefed. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it you heard the 23 assertion at that time that the First Nation protestors 24 had fired on the police, had you heard that at that time, 25 the assertion?
2581 A: Yes, I heard many stories. 2 Q: All right. Now, are you aware of any 3 physical or hard evidence that any police officer or 4 equipment worn by a police officer, was struck by a 5 bullet fired by a First Nation person? 6 A: I have no knowledge of anything like 7 that. 8 Q: All right. And let me now asked you 9 about the scenario in which, since the allegation was 10 made that First Nations protestors fired at the police, 11 that such a thing happened and that instead of hitting a 12 police officer or a police officer's equipment, a bullet 13 or bullets passed through or beyond the police officers 14 there. 15 From your recollection of the site, would 16 you agree that there are a number of trees and buildings 17 and fences and embankments that such a bullet could have 18 struck, if it had missed the police? 19 A: I have no way of knowing that. 20 Q: Okay. Are you aware of any search 21 that was made for bullets that might have passed the 22 police after being fired by First Nations protestors and 23 struck some object, such as a tree or a building, behind 24 the police; are you aware of any efforts made to search 25 for any such bullet?
2591 A: I have no knowledge of that. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: In some notes that were produced in 7 the course of the litigation, and these are -- these are 8 notes entitled, Minutes of meeting with Joseph Chico 9 Ralf, dated June 17th, 1996, which appear to be notes 10 made of an interview between Delia Opeokew and yourself, 11 and these are -- sorry, I don't have the document number. 12 I understand they're -- they're Document Number 3000338. 13 Do you have those in your briefing 14 material? 15 A: What tab were they under? Oh, 16 they're there, yes. 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: I didn't go back to one -- go one (1) 19 more page. 20 COMMISSIONER SYDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 21 it under? Do you have the tab number, Mr. -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I believe the 23 Document Number is 3000383. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three 25 eighty-three (383). Is it in the tabs in the binder that
2601 we have? MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 7. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Seven (7). 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Tab 7. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: In those notes there is a suggestion 8 that you made some comments that Sergeant Mark Wright of 9 the OPP had made some racist comments. 10 Do you recall making such comments? 11 A: I don't recall at this time. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. I have no further 13 questions, Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. 17 Ralf. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, thank you very much. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Rosenthal, are you going to take three (3) to five (5) 21 minutes, are you serious? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm pretty sure. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 24 let's do it now then. 25
2611 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Ralf. 3 A: Good afternoon. 4 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm 5 representing some of the people from Stoney Point under 6 the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. I just 7 wanted to ask you about one (1) aspect of your evidence. 8 You told us that on September 16, 1995, 9 you were stopped by some OPP officers as you were driving 10 along. I believe it was September 16; is that correct? 11 A: Yes, that's correct. 12 Q: And you told us that some officers 13 drew guns as they surrounded your vehicle? 14 A: Yes, they did. 15 Q: And then you similarly told us that 16 there was another vehicle that was stopped before you 17 left, a -- a van I believe you said it was? 18 A: Yes, there was. 19 Q: And that had a woman and her child in 20 it? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And in the case of your vehicle, you 23 told us that you were told it was stopped because there 24 was a report you had -- had weapons in it; is that 25 correct?
2621 A: Yes, the anonymous tip. 2 Q: That's what you were told by the 3 officers at the time? 4 A: Yeah, they had an anonymous tip. 5 Q: Yes. Was there any suggestion that 6 the woman and/or her child had weapons as the reason for 7 stopping that car? 8 A: I'm unaware of why they were stopped. 9 Q: Now, sir, you told us that you were 10 nervous with a -- well, you were anxious about a nervous 11 police officer pointing a gun in your direction; is that 12 fair to say? 13 A: Yeah. Myself to say, like, I wasn't 14 that nervous. I was -- he was nervous and that made me 15 a little bit nervous to the point of maybe being a little 16 scared. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: The fact it might accidentally go 19 off. 20 Q: Yes, exactly. And you, as a trained 21 police officer, you knew that once a gun is drawn, that 22 in and of itself, can be a dangerous thing because 23 sometimes drawn guns go off even when people don't intend 24 them to; isn't that fair to say? 25 A: Yes, you're correct.
2631 Q: And so it's dangerous to even draw 2 guns and you were aware at the time, were you not, sir, 3 that there is a regulation in Ontario about police 4 officers drawing their guns. There was at the time and 5 there still is and it indicates they can only be drawn in 6 circumstances where there's a serious danger to life or - 7 - or -- let me get the exact wording. 8 Well, in fact, there -- you were aware of 9 the phrase, I believe it was exactly the same at the time 10 and has been, at least since 1992: 11 "A member of a police force shall not 12 draw a handgun or discharge a firearm 13 unless he or she believes, on 14 reasonable grounds, that to do so is 15 necessary to protect against loss of 16 life or serious bodily harm." 17 You were aware of that regulation, were 18 you, sir? 19 A: Yes, I am. 20 Q: And that's an important regulation 21 because of the danger of drawing guns. They shouldn't be 22 drawn unless there's a very serious reason for drawing 23 them; right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it would appear that in your case
2641 and in the case of the woman with the van, that 2 regulation was violated on that occasion, was that your 3 opinion, sir? 4 A: Well, in my opinion I wasn't 5 comfortable with that, but there's always ways around 6 that they have for that. 7 Q: Sorry, ways around the regulation? 8 A: They'll call -- they -- they will 9 respond to that as that was like a high risk takedown -- 10 like a high risk stop for the fact of the anonymous tip 11 of the firearms. 12 Q: Yes. You're anticipating what the -- 13 the officers are going to say -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- when I ask them that question. 16 A: I know -- I know what -- that's -- 17 Q: That's what they'll say. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: But I'm asking you your opinion, sir. 20 Do you agree -- do you think it was justified or not 21 justified, as a police officer, drawing their -- their 22 guns in that circumstance? 23 A: Just -- from my personal experience 24 as a police officer, I only drew my weapon in ten and a 25 half (10 1/2) years, twice, and both times I was advised
2651 to do it by an OPP officer because I was assisting them. 2 Out of all the occurrences I had, all my 3 First Nation of Oneida and anyone who's familiar with a 4 Oneida, we had several occurrences down there over the 5 years of serious incidents and there was no cause ever to 6 -- to pull firearms. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: So, that was not my practice ever to 9 do that and you asked me my question, in my opinion -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- I'd say no. 12 Q: It was not justified. 13 A: No. 14 Q: Thank you very much, sir. 15 Thank you Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Rosenthal. 18 Do you -- is Ms. Tuck-Jackson next? You 19 made a five (5) minute estimate, would you like to go 20 now? 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: If I can, 22 Commissioner, I'd prefer the benefit of reading my notes 23 tonight. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25
2661 (WITNESS RETIRES) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 Millar...? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, just on an 6 administrative matter, we -- as I said earlier, we only 7 have one (1) witness, Mr. Watts, who we will call as soon 8 as Mr. Ralf is done, hopefully by 9:30. 9 For the benefit of My Friends, there's a 10 lawyer, James McDonald (phonetic), who will be attending 11 tomorrow on behalf of the person who called Mr. Watts to 12 make submissions with respect to the issue of the 13 disclosure of the person's name as we go along, and I 14 take it he'll make those submissions when the point comes 15 in the examination of Mr. Watts when he's asked for the 16 name. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will 18 adjourn now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank 19 you. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 21 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, March the 8th, at 9:00 22 a.m. 23 24 --- Upon adjourning at 5:08 p.m. 25
2671 2 Certified Correct, 3 4 5 6 7 ____________________ 8 Dustin Warnock 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25