11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 6th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 9 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 10 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 11 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 14 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 15 Jennifer McAleer ) 16 17 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 18 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 19 20 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 21 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 Opening Comments 10 6 7 Mark Anthony Wright, Resumed 8 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 15 9 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Mark Sandler 179 10 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 256 11 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 264 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1122 Transcript of Mark Wright and Bob 4 Goodall, Region 24, Mobile Command 5 Unit, logger tape number 4, track 6 number 1, disc 2 of 3, Sept. 07, 1995, 7 03:12 hours. 83 8 P-1123 Reserved. 176 9 P-1124 Transcript of Lima 2 and Oscar 1 (Whelan) 10 Chatham. Logger 0146, track 12, 21:25 11 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995 189 12 P-1125 Transcript of Lima 1 and Oscar 1 (Whelan) 13 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 21:26 14 hrs., Sept. 06, 1995 191 15 P-1126 Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1(Sgt. Rob 16 Graham), and Alpha Checkpoint; Chatham 17 logger 0146, track 12, 21:28 hrs. Sept. 18 06, 1995. 195 19 P-1127 Transcript of Lima 2, Oscar 1 (Whelan) 20 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 21:32 21 hrs., Sept. 06, 1995 197 22 P-1128 Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1 (Sgt Rob 23 Graham) and Checkpoint Delta, Chatham 24 logger 0146, track 12, 21:39 hrs. Sept 25 06, 1995. 202
91 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1129 Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1(Graham) 4 and Oscar 1 (Whelan), Chatham logger 5 0146, track 12, 21:41 hrs, Sept 06, 6 1005. 204 7 P-1130 Transcript of Lima 1(Korosec) and Oscar 8 1(Whelan) Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 9 21:42 hrs, Sept 06, 1995. 207 10 P-1131 Transcript of Lima 2 and Oscar 1, 11 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 22:06 12 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 210 13 P-1132 Transcript of Lima 2 and Oscar 1. Chatham 14 logger 0146, track 12, 22:07 hrs, Sept 06, 15 1995. 211 16 P-1133 Transcript of "2841", Lima 1 and Lima 2, 17 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 20:04 hrs, 18 Sept. 06, 1995. 219 19 P-1134 Transcript of Lima 2 and Checkpoint 20 Charlie, Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 21 20:11 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995 222 22 P-1135 Transcript of Lima 2 and Charlie, Chatham 23 logger 0146, track 12, 20:28 hrs. Sept. 06, 24 1995 225 25
101 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1136 Transcript of Sgt Cousineau and D/C 4 Mark Dew, Command Post, Track 1, 20:20 5 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 229 6 P-1137 Transcript of Peterman, D/C Mark Dew 7 and Sgt Rob Graham, Command Post, track 8 1, 20:34 hrs. Sept. 06. 1995. 234 9 P-1138 Transcript of Checkpoint Delta and Lima 1, 10 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 20:23 hrs, 11 Sept.06, 1995. 244 12 P-1139 Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1 and 13 Checkpoint Bravo, Chatham logger 0146, 14 track 12, 20:26 hrs, Sept. 06, 1995. 246 15 P-1140 Transcript of Lima 2 and Checkpoint Bravo, 16 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 20:31 hrs. 17 Sept. 06, 1995 247 18 P-1141 Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1, 2465, 19 Checkpoint Alpha and Checkpoint Charlie, 20 Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 21:00 21 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 250 22 P-1142 Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1, Checkpoint 23 Charlie, Checkpoint Delta and Checkpoint 24 Alpha, Chatham logger 0146, track 12, 21:03 25 hrs, Sept. 06, 1995. 255
111 --- Upon commencing at 10:29 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. Just before we start this morning, 8 I've got a few things that I just want to say. 9 As has been my practice throughout these 10 Hearings, I want to make a few comments on the progress 11 of the Inquiry. But before doing so, I wish to 12 acknowledge the unexpected news last week of Kenneth 13 Deane's traffic accident and tragic death. 14 On behalf of the Commission and all 15 involved with the Inquiry, I wish to extend our 16 sympathies to Mr. Dean's family. I know how difficult it 17 must be for them to deal with their loss. 18 While the Commission will not have the 19 benefit of Mr. Deane's views and perspective, we are 20 nonetheless confident that our investigation will be 21 complete. There are a number of means by which we intend 22 to deal with the absence of his first-hand testimony at 23 this Inquiry and Commission counsel will address this 24 issue at a later time. 25 We've now heard testimony from several of
121 the most anticipated witnesses. And some people may have 2 concluded that the fact-finding portion of the Inquiry is 3 complete, however, that is not the case. Let me explain 4 in a little more detail where we are in the process. 5 At the outset, we identified three (3) 6 primary categories of witnesses around which we intended 7 to organize these proceedings, namely, Aboriginal 8 witnesses which we have heard from; government officials 9 which we have also now heard from; and finally, the OPP, 10 the witnesses who are now testifying. We've also heard 11 from the medical emergency personnel who were directly 12 involved in the events of September '95. 13 While we have heard from most of the 14 senior OPP officials, there are many other police 15 witnesses, predominantly constables, who were directly 16 involved who must be called. The next few weeks will be 17 devoted to hearing testimony from these witnesses, as 18 well as from the current Commissioner of the OPP Gwen 19 Boniface. 20 Much has been learned so far. Each 21 witness adds details or perspective to the investigation 22 that helps me test or verify the evidence of others and, 23 ultimately, will help me to reach conclusions. 24 Following the OPP witnesses, there are a 25 few additional witnesses to call who fall outside the
131 three (3) primary categories but who were directly 2 affected by or involved with the events of September '95. 3 These include some local cottagers and Department of 4 National Defence officials. Our investigation is not 5 complete until we have heard from all of the witnesses. 6 Throughout these proceedings we must keep 7 in mind that the process of a public inquiry is not only 8 for the benefit of the Commissioner. There is a 9 significant public education component to a public 10 inquiry. It provides an opportunity for the public to 11 hear and for witnesses to share their perspectives and 12 experiences. 13 We intend to call all relevant and helpful 14 evidence but that does not mean that we intend to hear 15 all possible evidence as has been the case since we 16 began. Thoroughness and fairness need to continue to 17 balanced with economy. 18 I wish to remind everyone that the 19 Commission's policy and research work is being carried 20 out at the same time as these Part 1 hearings. 21 Significant amounts of research have been gathered and 22 are being reviewed. Experts and parties who have Part 2 23 standing have contributed to this research. 24 A number of forums and symposia have been 25 held and, as you know, another is scheduled for later
141 this week. Many of these sessions are open to the public 2 and have been web cast to give the material presented to 3 the Commission wide accessibility. 4 After the hearings and policy work have 5 concluded, I intend to complete my report as quickly as 6 possible. My goal is to have it completed before the end 7 of this calendar year. 8 It's well known that a public inquiry is a 9 lengthy and costly undertaking. It also goes without 10 saying that public funding is not unlimited. These facts 11 are no doubt taken into account in a government's 12 decision to have an inquiry. I've said on previous 13 occasions my expectation is that the cost of this Inquiry 14 will be comparable to other recently completed 15 commissions of inquiry. 16 I want to assure everyone that the cost to 17 the public of this Inquiry has always been forefront in 18 my mind and every decision I've made has been with the 19 view to balancing the need for thoroughness, fairness, 20 and economy. 21 From the outset my principle goal has been 22 to conduct a thorough, fair, and open inquiry. 23 My secondary goal has been to contribute 24 in some way to the healing of those individuals whose 25 lives were affected by the events of September '95 and
151 notwithstanding the many twists and turns an Inquiry may 2 take, I believe so far we've been successful in achieving 3 these goals. Thank you very much. 4 I'll now ask Mr. Millar to continue his 5 examination of Staff Inspector Wright. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 7 Commissioner. Inspector Wright, if you could attend 8 again at the witness table please? 9 10 MARK ANTHONY WRIGHT, Resumed 11 12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Good morning, Inspector -- 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: If you could pick up the blue book of 16 notebook entries, it's Exhibit P-1086. And you recall 17 last week -- not last week but on -- the last time we 18 were here on February 23rd I believe it was, I asked you 19 about the telephone call with Chief Ovide Mercredi. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And one of the things that Ovide -- 23 Chief Mercredi asked you on the telephone call and that's 24 captured in the transcript was, whether the OPP intended 25 to go into the Park.
161 Do you recall that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And your -- you didn't tell him on 4 that call and I asked you about this, that the OPP did 5 not intend to go into the Park. You didn't tell him 6 that? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Could I ask you to turn to page 86 of 9 your notes, Exhibit P-1086. And in the middle of the 10 page it indicates: 11 "Call received from Ovide Mercredi 12 wanting to know if OPP intend to enter 13 Park. I told him no and that I would 14 pass his telephone number onto Inspector 15 Carson/Linton." 16 And in that note you said -- you -- you 17 indicated that you told Ovide Mercredi -- Chief Mercredi 18 "No" to his answer, to the question he asked. 19 Now, that was incorrect? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And when you made these notes, you 22 made these notes I believe you told us or these parts of 23 the notes on September 7th after you had been in the -- 24 at the court proceeding. 25 A: Right.
171 Q: And do you recall today why you wrote 2 -- you told him "No" when you made these notes? 3 Do you have any understanding of why you 4 did that? 5 A: Well I'm -- I'm sure I felt that 6 that's what I told him and that's why I put it in my 7 notebook. 8 Q: Then could you turn to page 83 of 9 your notes. And I asked you about an entry at page 78 of 10 the scribe notes and it's -- the entry was at 21:58 and 11 I'll just read it to you. 12 "Mark Wright sending another St. John's 13 ambulance to TOC [it should be TOC as 14 opposed to talk]. Dale Linton 15 continuing telephone discussion 16 regarding evacuation." 17 And in your notes at page 83 it indicates 18 that: 19 "21:58 sent St. John's Ambulance to TOC 20 [T-O-C]. Now three (3) ambulances, two 21 (2) paddy wagons at TOC." 22 And can you tell me what was the basis of 23 your understanding that there were three (3) ambulances 24 and two (2) paddy wagons at the TOC? 25 A: I -- I don't know.
181 Q: And a paddy wagon is another name for 2 a prisoner van? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: At pages 83 and 84 if you move down 5 the page 83 you -- and over to page 84, you describe the 6 movements of the CMU; that's the way I read this note. 7 Is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall today what you used 10 to -- if anything, to write this description down? 11 A: I don't recall ten (10) years later, 12 no. 13 Q: And the -- one (1) of the notes that 14 you indicate: 15 "Lacroix asked for further direction and 16 is directed to not go into Park, move 17 back and take up a defensive position." 18 And the -- the question I have, if one 19 looks at Exhibit P-438, which is -- you should have on 20 the desk. It's the logger tape transcript of the CMU's 21 move -- progress down the -- down the road to the sandy 22 parking lot. 23 And if you go to page 6, you will see an 24 exchange between Staff Sergeant Lacroix and Sergeant 25 Skinner. And Skinner says:
191 "Go ahead, CMU. 2 LACROIX: They're on the, ah, 3 Provincial -- Provincial property. 4 SKINNER: 10-4. Take up a defensive 5 position." 6 And nowhere can I find a direct order as 7 referred to in your notes not to go into the Park. And I 8 know it's now eleven (11) years ago or almost eleven (11) 9 years ago, but do you recall a -- an order being given by 10 someone at this point in time not to go into the Park 11 that wasn't captured on the -- the logger tape? 12 A: I was always of the -- my 13 recollection is, is that that was the direction given to 14 Lacroix, not to enter the Park -- 15 Q: But that -- you told us -- 16 A: -- at that time. 17 Q: -- that was the direction that was 18 given to him at the briefing by John Carson. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And I'm just trying to -- to follow 21 through -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- to determine if there's something 24 missing from this particular document vis-a-vis your 25 notes because this document says, "take up a defensive
201 position". 2 A: Right. 3 Q: It doesn't say, explicitly not go -- 4 Don't go into the Park, as set out in your notes. 5 A: Right. I appreciate that but my -- 6 my recollection is, consistent with my notes, is that I 7 was always under the impression that that command was 8 given to Lacroix. 9 Q: Before -- before they -- before the 10 CMU started or during the course of the -- 11 A: Both. 12 Q: Both? 13 A: At -- at the command post. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And down at the scene. That's always 16 been my recollection. 17 Q: Okay. Then the notes -- your notes 18 indicate that as -- that the CMU goes down to the sandy 19 parking lot, the occupiers go back into the -- into the 20 Park. And then while in the sandy parking lot after the 21 occupiers have gone into the Park and the CMU's ordered 22 to take a defensive position that the bottom of page 83 - 23 - no, excuse me. Then Lacroix reports: 24 "Natives back onto road allowance", 25 And then TRU indicates there is:
211 "A male with what appears to be a 2 firearm. Lacroix orders CMU to split 3 and go down onto one (1) knee." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then: 7 "TRU confirms that Native is carrying a 8 -- not carrying a firearm but some kind 9 of stick or piece of wood. CMU reforms 10 and moves forward." 11 And if you look at Exhibit P-438 it would 12 appear that the incident with respect to the CMU -- and I 13 misspoke myself. It's moved to... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: "CMU reforms and moves toward 18 Native." 19 That's on page 84. I misspoke that. And 20 I thank Mr. Falconer for pointing that out. 21 Now, in Exhibit P-438 the incident with 22 respect to the person being on the -- on the road with 23 what appeared to be a weapon and it's on page 4 of 24 Exhibit P-438, and the split left and right and then 25 confirmation that it's a person with a stick comes on
221 page 5. 2 It appears to have occurred before the -- 3 any contact between the CMU and the people in the sandy 4 parking lot? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And would you agree with me that your 7 notes would appear to be in error on this point? 8 A: Absolutely. 9 Q: And that the most accurate 10 description that we have, and we'll be hearing from Staff 11 Sergeant Lacroix, was -- is in Exhibit P-438, the 12 transcript of the movements? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Then on page 84 there's a reference 15 to -- in the middle of the page as: 16 "Team [brackets] (CMU) [close brackets] 17 moving back. Bus and a vehicle come 18 through fence with an industrial -- with 19 a industrial garbage can being pushed 20 into CMU. CMU reports being fired upon 21 and returns fire. Multiple gunshots are 22 heard." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And have I read that correctly?
231 A: Yes. 2 Q: And when did you learn that there was 3 bus and a car moved out into the sandy parking lot? 4 A: I can't recall the exact -- I can't 5 recall the exact time that I knew that it was a bus and a 6 car. I don't know if that -- Lacroix said that over the 7 air or somehow it got back to the Command Post; I'm -- 8 I'm not sure how. 9 Q: If you could look at Exhibit P-438 at 10 page 10 there is -- the only reference that I can find to 11 a bus and a car where Staff Sergeant Lacroix says: 12 "We took gunfire from a car. A bus 13 tried to run us over. We returned fire. 14 We have no casualties that I can count 15 for everyone seems to be accounted for." 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is 17 that, Mr. Millar? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 10, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 10. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And do you -- what I'm trying to 24 understand is how this information got to the Command 25 Post and was it through this particular radio
241 transmission or something else, do you recall? 2 A: Well, the -- I -- I was in the 3 Command Post when this communication was taking place and 4 I heard this as this was -- as this was taking place and 5 it's ten (10) years later and I -- but it would appear 6 that that's the most likely place from where I got -- 7 gathered that information. 8 Q: We know that by 23:07 in Exhibit P- 9 1059 which is Inquiry Document 1000023 that Dale Linton 10 reports to Tony Parkin that -- in the transmission: 11 "LINTON: Yeah, it's heating up. We've 12 got TRU guys who were fired on from the 13 vehicle from inside the Park, and a 14 school bus tried to run them over and 15 they returned fire but they don't 16 believe they hit anybody. None of our 17 people are hit and they're backed off 18 now and they're going back to the TOC 19 and John is suggesting that we get 20 another TRU down. We can send the 21 Barrie team down." 22 And he refers to both the vehicle and the 23 bus, although he puts the vehicle inside the Park. 24 And -- but today do you have any 25 recollection, and I know it's a long time ago, of -- of
251 where the Command Post learned the information about the 2 bus and the car other than this reference in Exhibit P- 3 438? 4 A: I don't. 5 Q: And again if I could ask you to go to 6 your notes, page 86. At the top of the page it says: 7 "Instruct Detectives Dew and Speck and 8 Ident personnel to attend Strathroy 9 Hospital." 10 Then -- can you tell me what it says after 11 "hospital"? 12 A: "And Richardson, Detective Clelland 13 called in Detective Sergeant Parent 14 called out to attend Strathroy 15 Hospital." 16 Q: And then: 17 "Detective Sergeant Smethurst, London, 18 called out to Strathroy Hospital to 19 assist. He advises he will also call 20 out Detective Martin." 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Did you instruct -- you told -- we 23 spoke the last day about Dew and -- Constables Dew and 24 Speck and Richardson, did you instruct Detective 25 Clelland, Detective Sergeant Parent and Detective
261 Sergeant Smethurst to attend in Strathroy as well? 2 A: I either called them directly or I 3 had that done. 4 Q: And was this -- did this all happen 5 contemporaneously or did -- did it happen at different 6 times? 7 A: As far as calling these people out? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Parent would have been called out -- 10 at some point Detective Sergeant Richardson tells me that 11 he has a family function that he has to deal with in the 12 morning so he can't stay. 13 So some time -- and I don't know if that's 14 captured in the logs but in any event, that's when I call 15 out Parent to replace Richardson. But the other 16 individuals I call out pretty close to this all happening 17 at once. 18 Q: And why were you calling these other 19 individuals out, Inspector Wright? 20 A: Well, we had a vehicle and a number 21 of individuals at the hospital and I felt it prudent to 22 get as many detectives to that scene as possible, as 23 quickly as -- as quickly as possible so that they can 24 deal with the situation that was unfolding. 25 It was a very dynamic situation at that
271 time. I really didn't have a whole lot of information 2 with regards to what had taken place down in regards to 3 the confrontation and I felt it prudent to get as many 4 seasoned criminal investigators to the hospital as 5 possible, as quickly as possible. 6 Q: And at this point in time, did you 7 have any information, and we touched on this in some 8 detail when you were here last, but at this point in time 9 did you have any information as to the colour or make or 10 the identity of the car involved in the confrontation? 11 A: The best I can recollect is that at 12 some point there's a call from Nauvoo Road about a car 13 showing up there and somebody's -- a person comes to the 14 door and there's a complaint with respect to a gunshot 15 wound of somebody in that vehicle. 16 And my recollection is I send Richardson 17 to go see what that's all about. And he reports back to 18 me and then he ends up at the hospital and -- and my 19 recollection is is that's where I get the colour of the 20 vehicle being white from Richardson. That's my 21 recollection. 22 Q: The vehicle that arrived at the 23 hospital? 24 A: Yeah the vehicle that arrived at the 25 hospital is the vehicle that was at Nauvoo Road.
281 Q: Yes. And did -- do you recall and 2 there are some references that I'll take you to in some 3 subsequent telephone calls, but do you recall now what 4 information you were given about the white car other than 5 it had the -- a person in it who had been suff -- who had 6 been shot? 7 A: Do I recall? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I think I had some information in 10 regards to the total number of people in the vehicle as 11 well. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I think I was -- 14 Q: You told us about that. 15 A: Yeah, okay. 16 Q: But anything else? 17 A: Not that I recall. 18 Q: Then in your notes on page 86, 19 Exhibit P-1086, it says: 20 "Advise officers left at Forest 21 Detachment to take up perimeter security 22 around Detachment." 23 Firstly, have I read that correctly? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And why did you give that order? Did
291 you give that order? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And why did you give that order? 4 A: Well, I was contingency planning, I 5 guess. I knew we had had a horrendous thing just happen 6 and I was concerned about officer safety and -- and 7 Command Post safety and I thought it prudent to put a 8 perimeter of officers around the Detachment in the event 9 something might happen. 10 Q: And do you recall how many officers 11 were available to provide perimeter security? 12 A: No, I remember three (3) people -- 13 assigning three (3) people specifically but -- four (4). 14 But there may have been more. 15 Q: And who were the people you remember 16 specifically? 17 A: Constable Avery who's now Sergeant 18 Avery. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I think Sergeant Eve, Constable Evans 21 and I can't remember the officer's name -- 22 Q: Finch (phonetic). 23 A: Yes, thank you very much. Constable 24 Finch. And there may have been others, but those are the 25 four (4) that I recall.
301 Q: Now, at -- if I can, I'd ask you in 2 the Volume I -- the scribe notes that I think you've got 3 open on your left hand side, if you would please turn to 4 page 81 and there's a note at 0:02 hours, that's two (2) 5 minutes after midnight on the morning of September 7th. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: "John Carson arrived. Dale Linton 8 agreed we are to back off to outer 9 perimeter to ensure we are not sitting 10 ducks inside. We will control the area 11 for the night and evacuate people. Marg 12 Eve doing notification of evacuation by 13 a 10-21." 14 And that's by telephone? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: When John Carson arrived back in the 17 command post, were you present in the command post? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you recall what, if anything, 20 John Carson said to Dale Linton or to you or to anyone 21 else in the command post when he arrived back? 22 A: No, the -- my first memory without 23 looking this over, but my first memory is when Inspector 24 Carson and I go to the front door of Forest detachment 25 and we speak to Mr. Ron George and some family members of
311 Mr. Anthony George. 2 Q: Okay. We'll come back to that in a 3 moment. 4 But -- so your first memory is of that 5 incident. You don't have any memory of what, if 6 anything, John Carson said when he arrived back at the 7 Command Post from down at the -- 8 A: No, not without -- unless they're 9 captured in the scribe notes, but my independent 10 recollection is that's the first time I remember talking 11 -- being with John. 12 Q: Okay. Then there's -- if I could 13 turn to, again, page 86 of Exhibit P-1086, your notes and 14 then page 82 of the scribe notes and I'm going to refer 15 to -- there's another large volume in front of you. 16 You should have -- if we could give the 17 witness Exhibit 444B, please. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: It's actually -- 22 A: Thank you. 23 Q: You can save 444B by going to the 24 second volume of material, it's at Tab 47. Sorry, 25 Inspector Wright. We've got too many pieces of paper
321 there for you. 2 A: No problem. 3 Q: Now, this is a conversation between 4 John Carson and Tony Parkin at two (2) minutes and 5 thirty-seven (37) seconds approximately after September - 6 - in the morning of September the 7th. And if we turn to 7 page... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: ...384, there's a number at the 12 bottom of page 384, there's -- 13 A: Yes? 14 Q: -- in the background: 15 "Dudley, he's dead. Trevor's at the 16 hospital. He's dead." 17 And I'm going to play a clip, it's of this 18 conversation and it's at approximately ten (10) minutes 19 and thirty-three (33) seconds into the call. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 CARSON: ...they're going to ask were shots fired 24 by police or the Natives? Like I would 25 like personally my my opinion ah Tony is
331 that ah ah that our guys ah these vehicles 2 drove drove... 3 (background...one of their...Dudley's dead. Dudley's 4 dead) 5 CARSON: What? 6 (Background...Dudley...he's dead. Trevor's at the 7 hospital 8 he's dead. The other guy Nicholas 9 Cotrelle Cotrelle Trev thinks he's going 10 to live, the other guy we don't know who 11 he is, we're not sure whether he's doing 12 to live or not...) 13 (Background...(I/A) we might have three dead ones there). 14 CARSON: Hear that? 15 TONY: What? 16 CARSON: We got one dead anyway...Dudley, Dudley's 17 dead. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And the voice in the background 23 appears to be your voice? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you're reporting that Dudley's
341 dead? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And you make some other comments but 4 the -- what was the source of your information; Sergeant 5 Richardson? 6 A: Yes, it appears so. 7 Q: And you refer to Dudley as, "Dudley's 8 dead." 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And you say that a couple of times. 11 And it appears from this transmission that the reference 12 to Dudley, you knew who Dudley was and I'm trying to 13 understand, did you or didn't you? 14 A: Well, I wouldn't say that -- I was 15 just -- I would disagree with you. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Richardson was passing off on 18 information to me and I was just passing it right onto, 19 in its raw form, to Inspector Carson. 20 So I don't know if I knew if Dudley George 21 was -- I mean it was -- I -- it wouldn't have made any 22 connection to me because I didn't know -- I don't think 23 there's any note in my book. I don't know if when we 24 talk about on the 30th when we're down at the Park with 25 Carson as to whether or not I say it's Dudley George is -
351 - there's a concern with Dudley George and the campers. 2 I don't know if that's in my notebook or not. It may 3 very well be. But other than that it's just a name to 4 me. 5 Q: And at this point in time what was 6 your understanding of the role if any of the person you 7 described as Dudley who had just died in -- with respect 8 to the confrontation down at the sandy parking lot? 9 A: I don't understand your question. 10 Q: The -- what -- who did you think this 11 person who had died was? 12 A: I thought he was an individual who 13 was involved in the confrontation with the officers down 14 at the sandy parking lot area. And I thought he was an 15 individual who was in the vehicle at the time gunfire was 16 exchanged. 17 I -- I think I -- I'm not sure if I knew 18 that yet because I don't know if I've got that 19 information that it's Mr. Anthony George who ends -- is 20 at the hospital and he's deceased because he's in that 21 vehicle. 22 I don't know if I have that yet and I 23 don't know if you can assist me with that or not. I 24 don't know if this is the first piece of information I 25 have, is that Trevor's telling me Dudley's dead and then
361 sometime after that it's -- he's in the car that shows 2 up, the white car that shows up with these other 3 individuals. 4 I don't know if that's already happened 5 yet. 6 Q: You don't know -- you can't recall if 7 you've been advised -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- by -- 10 A: Whomever. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: The scribe note, it says at 00:20, 15 page 82: 16 "Mark Wright reports Dudley is dead and 17 two (2) other injured. Nicholas 18 Cotrelle is alive. Trevor Richardson is 19 at the hospital. We don't know the 20 third guy's name." 21 A: Right. 22 Q: "Five (6) [hyphen] -six (6) crime 23 guys at the scene. Superintendent being 24 advised as of information." 25 A: Right. I guess I'll -- the best way
371 I can answer that for you, sir, is if I was aware that if 2 Richardson already passed the message on to me that Mr. 3 George was the individual, that he was dead and he showed 4 up in a -- the white vehicle with the three (3) other 5 people, then that's what I would have taken Mr. George to 6 be, in answer to your first question; that he was -- that 7 he was in the vehicle at the time of the shooting down at 8 the sandy parking lot area with the OPP officers. 9 Q: Okay. I'm going to play this once -- 10 more time. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 13 14 CARSON: ...our guys ah these vehicles drove 15 drove... 16 (background...one of their...Dudley's dead. Dudley's 17 dead) 18 CARSON: What? 19 (Background...Dudley...he's dead. Trevor's at the 20 hospital he's dead. The other guy Nicholas Cotrelle 21 Cotrelle Trev thinks he's going to live, the other guy we 22 don't know who he is, we're not sure whether he's doing 23 to live or not...) 24 (Background...(I/A) we might have three dead ones there). 25 CARSON: Hear that?
381 TONY: What? 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And "Trev" is Trevor Richardson. 7 A: Right. And it -- it may be of some 8 help to you, sir, in that when I speak, as I recall, I 9 speak to Superintendent Parkin, I think, at four o'clock 10 in the morning or some time. I talked to him a number of 11 times, but he wants to know who the -- who -- who are the 12 deceased parties and who are the injured parties. And I 13 say to him that it's Anthony George has died and he says, 14 well, no, that's -- we both don't -- we're both coming to 15 the realization that that is Dudley George. 16 So, I mean, I didn't know Dudley George 17 was Anthony George and so that name -- and that's why I 18 say that name would have meant nothing to me when I -- 19 when I passed that on to Carson. 20 Q: Okay. We'll come back to that in a 21 moment. Excuse me for a moment. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, in the scribe notes, it's Tab 18
391 of the scribe notes at page 82, at 0:25 hours. It talks 2 about -- second last line of the entry, third last line: 3 "Mark Wright to call extra crime guys 4 in. Mark Wright, the native officers 5 Phil, Luke taken care of." 6 Now, the -- the Phil, Luke reference is 7 with respect to the concerns about the death threats? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And the extra crime guys, is this 10 when you called in Mr. -- Smethurst and -- 11 A: Well that's -- that's the log 12 demonstrates that I've done that. I don't know -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I think that -- that that's happened 15 a little earlier and they're catching up. 16 Q: In your notes it appears to have been 17 a little earlier. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Now -- and when you called 20 them in, the -- the officers, and I believe it was 21 Detective Sergeant Smethurst, Clelland and Dew -- and 22 Martin and then Parent to replace Richardson, what 23 instructions did you give them other than to attend in -- 24 A: I don't recall, sir. 25 Q: And at 0:27 --
401 A: I'm sure -- I'm sure I would have 2 told them, given them a briefing about, you know, what 3 had taken place and that they needed to go to hospital 4 and assist and that there were, you know, the general 5 facts of what had taken place earlier. 6 But as to specifics -- 7 Q: But you don't have any recall today 8 of what -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: At 0:27 hours there's an indication: 11 "Armed takedown outside concluded." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Do you see that? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Do you have any recollection of the 16 armed takedown? 17 A: Yes, I do, vaguely. 18 Q: And what do you recall happened? 19 A: I recall it being brought to my 20 attention that a -- that a vehicle had driven through a 21 checkpoint system close by the Detachment and had 22 travelled towards the -- the Forest Detachment at a high 23 rate of speed where two (2) officers were Finch and Avery 24 as I recall. 25 And that they had had those individ --
411 they had those individuals currently under arrest. By 2 the time it came to me, this had already taken place. I 3 didn't -- and so I went to the corner where they had 4 these individuals temporarily in custody. 5 Q: And how did -- was there 6 communication to the Command Post that this vehicle was - 7 - was coming toward them? 8 A: Must have been, yeah. 9 Q: Do you recall if anyone said anything 10 in the Command Post? 11 A: I don't recall. It came -- somehow 12 the information came to me because I -- I ended up at the 13 corner. 14 Q: The -- do you recall someone saying, 15 "hit the deck"? 16 A: No, I don't recall that. 17 Q: John Carson testified when he was 18 here, he -- he or someone when they -- this armed -- when 19 the vehicle was approaching the command post said, "hit 20 the deck". 21 Do you recall that? 22 A: It may very well, I don't recall. 23 Q: Then at page 83 of the scribe note, 24 there's an entry and this is mut -- I think we were 25 searching for before:
421 0:36 hours, Bob Cousineau, the white 2 vehicle had four (4) occupants. Harry 3 Neil, Watson George had a gunshot -- 4 Harry Neil [then comma], Watson George 5 had a gunshot wound and other three (3) 6 in custody for attempt murder. Sergeant 7 Peer did the advising." 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: Do you have any recollection of this 10 communication to you or to the command post? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And did you have any discussion with 13 John Carson or Dale Linton or anyone else in the command 14 post about this information about the four (4) people in 15 the white vehicle? 16 A: I don't know if I did or not. 17 Sergeant Peer by the way, is a -- Sergeant Peer -- I 18 thought he was a detective constable at the time, but he 19 may well have been a -- there's only one (1) Peer that 20 I'm aware of. So -- I don't know if that helps at all 21 but he would be another detective then. 22 Q: And where was Peer? 23 A: Well this is -- 24 Q: At -- Peer said he was at Strathroy. 25 A: Well, then I'm sure he was.
431 Q: No, no. But just reading this in -- 2 this note. 3 A: Right. I just don't recall sending 4 Detective Peer. I don't know if there's anoth -- if 5 there's a Sergeant Peer. I'm just trying to be accurate 6 as far as the detectives I sent. 7 Q: Sure. 8 A: I don't know of a Sergeant Peer. I - 9 - I know of a Detective Constable Peer and I don't 10 believe he -- he is now a Detective Sergeant. But I 11 don't believe he was a sergeant at the time. So I don't 12 know if that's yet another detective at the scene -- at 13 the hospital. 14 Q: And the -- do you recall anything 15 other -- anything else beyond what's in this note with 16 respect to the communication from Strathroy or from Bob 17 Cousineau? 18 A: No, I don't recall that -- I don't 19 recall that. I mean, I know at some point we had people 20 in custody. 21 Q: Okay. And the note, if you look at 22 your notes, Exhibit P-1086 at page 86, the note with 23 respect to the transmission at 00:20 is at the bottom of 24 the page. 25 "Call received from Detective Sergeant
441 Richardson [in quotes] "Dudley" [closed 2 quote] George is dead. One (1) other 3 party with head injuries [hyphen] - 4 serious. Third party's okay. Gunshot 5 graze to back -- backside." 6 A: Side, right. 7 Q: And that was information you were 8 getting from Richardson over the phone when you repeated 9 it to John Carson? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Now, at -- in the scribe notes at P- 12 426 at 00:38 hours and 0:04 hours it records the arrival 13 at the Command Post of Kent Skinner. 14 A: What page are you on, sir? 15 Q: Page 83 of the scribe notes, sir. 16 A: Okay. All right, I'm there. 17 Q: The -- it records the arrival of Kent 18 Skinner and Wade Lacroix? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you have today any 21 recollection if -- what if anything either Kent Skinner 22 or Wade Lacroix said about the confrontation in the sandy 23 parking lot when they arrived? 24 A: I remember talking to Wade Lacroix in 25 the Command Post at --
451 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- this particular moment. I can see 3 it in my mind's eye. I -- I can't -- what I recall is 4 him telling me -- all I can remember is him telling me 5 that he was going home; that's -- and I know he told me 6 more than that but that's all I can remember. 7 Q: So today that's what you remember is 8 that he said he was going -- 9 A: That's what I remember, yeah. 10 Q: What about Kent Skinner? 11 A: I don't recall speaking to Kent. I 12 don't have any independent recollection of speaking to 13 Kent. 14 Q: And did you -- do you have any 15 recollection of overhearing Kent Skinner or Wade Lacroix 16 speaking to Dale Linton or John Carson? 17 A: Do I today? No, I don't. 18 Q: Then if I could ask you to turn to 19 page 48 -- Tab 48 of -- 20 A: Tab 48? 21 Q: -- of the black book; it's Volume II? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And this is a conversation at
461 approximately 00:57 hours on the morning of the -- 2 September 7th. And in the scribe note at page 84 it's 3 logged at 1:04 hours. And I'm going to play this... 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 8 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 9 10 AP: Hello? 11 MW: Hello. Superintendent? 12 AP: Yes. 13 MW: Hi. Its Mark. 14 AP: How are you doing Mark? 15 MW: ...well. I'm okay I guess. Look I'm sorry 16 to bother you but John needs six hands and 17 eight mouths and I need some information. 18 AP: Yes. 19 MW: I know he talked to you and you guys were 20 looking after notifying SIU, right? 21 AP: Yeah. And CIB. 22 MW: Okay. That's what I needed to know. CIB. 23 Like is somebody - is somebody from CIB 24 going to get back to me about who's 25 rockin' and rollin' down here, or...?
471 AP: Okay. I talked to Larry Edgar. 2 MW: Yeah? 3 AP: I just got off the line with him. 4 MW: Yeah? 5 AP: He's going to sign - he's looking - he's 6 probably going to get Wally Baker. 7 MW: Good. I know him real well. 8 AP: Right. And he's in the Goderich area. But 9 he probably hasn't got a hold of him yet. 10 He's trying to do that as we speak.. 11 MW: [laughs] Okay. 12 AP: And he's also going to notify SIU. 13 MW: Okay. 14 AP: I'm just getting my uniform on and I'm 15 coming down. 16 MW: Good. 'Cause its fuckin' nuts here! 17 AP: Yup. What - is anything more happening? 18 Any more shots, any...? 19 MW: No. No. We had an - we had an armed take- 20 down at Forest detachment here. It took - 21 it was a brother, one of the guys we hit. 22 We turned him loose. Now we've got Spike 23 George, the ex-inspector, with the brother 24 of the dead guy, in our perimeter waiting 25 to speak to somebody. So he's going to
481 speak to John. But John's talking to media 2 relations. 3 AP: Good. Okay, that's the other thing I 4 called Marilyn Murray and... 5 MW: [interrupting] That's who he's talking to. 6 Right now.. 7 AP: All right. So - those things are all 8 being done. 9 MW: Yup. I've got a cast of thousands at 10 Strathroy Hospital. Crime. Ident. I got 11 John Stevens from 2 District doing the PIO 12 there for me, I got... 13 AP: Strathroy? Is the PF aware of this? 14 MW: Not yet but I've got Strathroy OPP staff 15 sergeant down there handling security. I 16 said I want at least ten uniformed 17 officers down there right away. 18 AP: Okay. Make sure somebody lets the city 19 know what's going on in case we have an 20 incident at the hospital. 21 MW: Okay. I got Smethurst who's the acting DS 22 down there - I got him rolling to give my 23 guy some hand up there. The only thing I 24 missed was the Strathroy PD. 25 AP: Just in case something blows there, its
491 their area... 2 MW: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 3 AP: And like I said I'm just going to pick the 4 chief up and we'll probably be there - but 5 you know its going to be an hour and a 6 half. 7 MW: Yeah I know, yeah, yeah. Everybody's 8 working on adrenalin here now. 9 AP: But as far as anything else, just try ... 10 MW: (interrupting)...and maintain. 11 AP: The best you can is just contain. 12 MW: Yeah, I understand. 13 AP: Okay. 14 MW: Yeah, maintain. Don't let things 15 deteriorate. 16 AP: You guys haven't done anything wrong. So 17 we... 18 MW: [interrupting] No, no! Neither do I! I 19 don't have any problems with that. 20 AP: We don't have any problems with this at 21 all. 22 MW: I appreciate your support but I don't have 23 any problem with it either. I know we did 24 what we had to do. They shot at us. 25 AP: That's right.
501 MW: Thank Christ none of our guys got hit. 2 AP: That's right. That's the important thing. 3 MW: I heard it over the comms and fuck, I'm 4 ten years older. So, I can't believe it. 5 AP: I know. Okay, well, we'll be talking with 6 you personally shortly. If you need me you 7 can get me - either, well, you can get me 8 on the cell phone in the car. 9 MW: Yeah, I just needed to know if CIB was 10 coming 'cause I'm in the dark here. 'Cause 11 I - I can't control any scene down there 12 because fuck its... I'm not going down 13 there AP: Don't jeopardize safety down 14 there. 15 MW: No. I'm not doing nothing down there right 16 now. 17 AP: Don't worry about it. 18 MW: Yeah, okay. 19 AP: If you can do it safely that's fine. If 20 you can't we'll tell 'em later, hey we 21 just couldn't do it. 22 MW: That's right. Got it. 23 AP: Okay? 24 MW: Okay Boss. 25 AP: Okay, be talking to you.
511 MW: Okay, bye. 2 End of conversation 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner, the 7 -- that particular conversation was marked at P-1060, the 8 transcript. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And on page 2 of the transcript, 12 Inspector Wright, you are -- you say, and it's recorded 13 on the -- the tape, after Inspector Parkin said that or 14 Superintendent Park -- Parkin said he was getting his 15 uniform and coming down, you say, 16 "good because it's fucking nuts here." 17 And what were you referring to then? 18 A: Well just everything that was taking 19 place there. You know, we had just -- we'd just had an 20 exchange of gunfire down at the scene. There were a 21 number of individuals seriously injured and/or deceased 22 as a result of that confrontation. 23 We'd had a car come through, almost come 24 through the -- the outer perimeter of the Detachment and 25 it was chaos, it was chaotic.
521 There were things happening moment to 2 moment. 3 Q: And you indicate that, in the next 4 number, that there was the armed take down and it was the 5 brother of one of the guys we hit and we turned him 6 loose. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And by that I take it that the person 9 who was stopped had been released by the OPP? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And did you give that instruction? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: And why did you give that 14 instruction? 15 A: My recollection of that incident was 16 when I went to the corner, they had the individual in 17 custody and I thought there were two (2) of them but I 18 may be wrong. I thought it was a man and a lady, but I 19 may be wrong. 20 Q: No, I think you're right. 21 A: Okay. And I recall asking the man 22 why he did -- why he blew through the -- the roadblock 23 and why he did what he did and my recollection is he said 24 to see if he could do it. 25 So, frankly, we had a number of other
531 things to worry about at that particular time and, you 2 know, I felt it the most prudent thing to do would just 3 be to have him go on his way and -- and move onto other 4 things we had. There was -- I had many things to deal 5 with at that particular time. 6 Q: Do you recall if he was taken to the 7 parking -- into the garage, the bull pen? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Because we've heard evidence from him 10 that he was and he was put face down on the -- on the 11 floor. 12 Do you recall that? 13 A: I wasn't there, but I'm sure of that. 14 Q: But what I'm trying to understand is 15 if you said, Release him at the corner -- 16 A: Right. 17 Q: His recollection was that he was 18 taken to -- into the -- the garage in handcuffs and put 19 hands down on the -- put down on the floor and then he 20 was released. 21 A: Well, I'm at a loss to explain that. 22 Q: Okay. Then at -- you go -- you go 23 on -- you say: 24 "Yup. I've got a cast of thousands at 25 Strathroy Hospital. Crime. Ident. I got
541 John Stevens from 2 District doing the 2 PIO there for me, I got..." 3 And who was John Stevens and what is PIO? 4 A: He was the Staff Sergeant, as I 5 recall at Dutton Detachment, at the time. Yes, I believe 6 he was the Staff Sergeant at Dutton Detachment and PIO is 7 the acronym for Public Information Officer. 8 So he -- the staff was called down there 9 to deal with any eventualities vis-a-vis the press at the 10 hospital. 11 Q: Okay. And then at the bottom of page 12 3, there's a reference: 13 "I just needed to know if CIB was coming 14 'cause I'm in the dark here. 'Cause I - 15 I can't control any scene down there 16 because fuck its... I'm not going down 17 there with any..." 18 And the scene that you're referring to 19 there is down at the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And we'll come back to that later, 22 but what was your concern at this point? 23 A: Well, it wouldn't be just the -- 24 wouldn't be limited to just the sandy parking lot. It 25 would be a large part of that area. In -- in my opinion
551 at that time, in my mind, I had two (2) scenes; I had a 2 scene at the hospital and I had a scene down in that 3 intersection at the, we'll call it the sandy parking lot, 4 that area where the exchange took place of gunfire. 5 So my concern was, I was trying to take 6 control of the one which I felt I could at the hospital 7 and I was trying to relay to the Superintendent that I 8 didn't feel that I could do that down at the scene. And 9 that would be part of my responsibility as the Detective 10 Staff Sergeant, to hold that scene for expert examination 11 and also the -- the investigation by the CIB inspector. 12 And that's why I called the Superintendent 13 because I needed to know that an inspector, a CIB 14 inspector, was en route. 15 Q: And why is it important to preserve a 16 crime scene? 17 A: Well, you want the crime scene left 18 in as pristine a -- a possible shape that you can 19 possibly have it, post incident, in order to obtain any 20 type of evidence that might be there, in particular 21 short-lived evidence that -- that may not be there for 22 very long and also to ensure that there's no 23 contamination of or altering of the scene. 24 Because there's -- there's -- the main 25 concern of a police officer, a criminal investigator, is
561 to be able to establish what we call continuity of the 2 scene, in that there's -- something takes place and then 3 as an investigator you're challenged in court as to was 4 that scene controlled by you post-incident, so that 5 nothing could have altered that, other than the incident 6 that took place and then that evidence relates to -- so 7 the evidence that's there relates directly to the 8 incident that took place. 9 Q: And why is that continuity important? 10 A: Well, because you have to establish - 11 -it's evidence. It's evidentiary in nature and you have 12 to establish that; that's the benchmark of our criminal 13 system in that the -- the State, the police have to prove 14 beyond a reasonable doubt that an individual has 15 committed an offence and part of that is the -- the 16 tendering of evidence that's not tainted and -- and which 17 you can prove continuity of. 18 Q: And what steps are normally taken to 19 preserve a crime scene? 20 A: Well, normally the first thing you do 21 is you would -- 22 Q: Back in 1995. 23 A: Sure. You would -- you would isolate 24 that scene and -- and as an example, if there was a crime 25 scene in this room then it would -- ordinarily you would
571 -- you would seal off the entire arena and then move from 2 the outer perimeter of your crime scene into where -- and 3 continue to move in to where you felt the incident took 4 place. 5 So not knowing exactly what took place 6 down there and where that was, we would have taken -- if 7 I had anything to do with it and we were able to do that, 8 I would have taken a -- a rather large swath of that area 9 and sealed that whole area off. 10 Q: And what about the bus and the car 11 that we've heard about? 12 A: Well, they're scenes as well; they're 13 individual scenes and you have to find -- first you have 14 to find those vehicles and then that vehicle and the area 15 around that vehicle becomes a scene. 16 Q: And what is the potential effect on 17 an investigation if a crime scene is not preserved? 18 A: Well, I think it becomes very 19 difficult, if not impossible, to establish continuity of 20 any evidence that you have there. 21 Q: And when you talk about evidence what 22 things are you talking about? 23 A: Well, those are -- they can be -- 24 normally it's items, things that you can demonstrate that 25 are tied to the incidents. For example, in this
581 particular incident one would think you would find spent 2 cartridges from anybody or any -- any weapon that was 3 discharged or -- and you'd find -- you may find marks on 4 the road, you might find weapons, you may find pieces of 5 shield, you might find some of the fire brands, or 6 whatever, that were thrown at the officers. 7 All -- all that would be evidence. 8 Q: And in the normal case would be 9 collected? 10 A: Yes. It would be collected by -- it 11 would be -- it would be photographed, videoed and then 12 painstakingly seized, an item at a time, and packaged 13 appropriately so that once it was seized it wouldn't 14 deteriorate. 15 The different items require different 16 methods of packaging so as to maintain the particular 17 item so that it doesn't deteriorate or become -- become 18 useless. 19 Q: And in the -- and in an investigation 20 is it normal to identify the location where objects are 21 found? 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: And are they then -- what when 24 they're -- the area that -- the place where the object is 25 identified, how is that marked?
591 A: It would be -- again, it would be -- 2 normally the -- the standard operating procedure would be 3 if -- if one were to take a number of people down there 4 with an ident officer -- there would be a number of 5 identification officers down there, they would find 6 something, and one would be tasked with being the exhibit 7 officer, so that person would actually pick up each 8 individual item. So although I may find something on the 9 scene, I would direct the ident officer to come and pick 10 that up. 11 But it would videoed, a picture would be 12 taken then the officer would make note. The ident 13 officer who is the exhibit officer would seize that in 14 the appropriate manner so as not to tamper with that 15 piece of evidence and then he would make note as to where 16 he found that particular piece of evidence as it relates 17 to the geography of the area. 18 Q: And what potential affect, if any, or 19 what affect, if any, would there be if the examination of 20 a crime scene is delayed twelve (12) to thirteen (13) 21 days? 22 In this case it was delayed to September 23 18th and 19th. 24 A: Well, I think it becomes extremely 25 problematic for the criminal investigator to deal with a
601 scene such as that. 2 Q: And why is that? 3 A: Well you have -- there's a number of 4 reasons, I mean, you may have short lived evidence there 5 that has now degraded to the point where you can't use 6 it. 7 For example, a -- a droplet of blood 8 sitting there can be seized, you know, immediately after 9 the fact but I don't know if it rained within that period 10 of twelve (12) days or the atmosphere may very well cause 11 that blood droplet to be evaporated and that's what we 12 would call -- what I would call short lived evidence and 13 you no longer have that anymore. 14 Q: And what affect, if any, would there 15 be on the crime scene, in this case the area at the 16 intersection of the sandy parking lot area and the 17 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road, if a 18 barricade had been built? 19 A: Well it -- you now have a scene 20 that's completely different from -- from the picture in 21 time, if you will, of what took place when the incident 22 occurred. You have -- earth is going to be moved and 23 evidence may be moved and/or destroyed or taken away and 24 it makes it very difficult to try to re -- recreate as 25 best you can what took place down at that scene, or any
611 other crime scene. 2 Q: Now, you spoke a minute ago about 3 Inspector Ron George. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And the -- who's now -- who at the 6 time, back in 1994, had left the OPP, was and ex- 7 inspector and is now -- the same Ron George is back with 8 OPP as an inspector. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And did you attend with John Carson 11 when he met with Ron George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what do you recall, a) who was 14 with Ron George and b) what do you recall happened? 15 A: I don't know if it's in my notes, 16 frankly. 17 Q: There's a reference to this at page 18 87. Do you have independent recollection? 19 A: I remember him being there. I 20 remember it being a very, you know, I don't know the best 21 word to describe that; sobering, tense, difficult. 22 It was -- was all that and much more. It 23 was Inspector Carson was trying to explain what had taken 24 place, that's my recollection. 25 He gave a brief run down, I think, as to
621 what happened, and Mr. George was representing the George 2 family and there was an exchange. I mean, frankly, 3 personally, I was -- I can't begin to explain to you the 4 effect that that incident had taken on me, and it was 5 right around this time that, frankly, it was starting to 6 sink in. 7 I was -- I was devastated that there had 8 been loss of life. I just -- I could not believe that 9 somebody had died and I was, frankly, trying to wrap my 10 head around this situation, this incredible set of 11 circumstances that ended in a man being killed. 12 And I didn't know at that time if perhaps, 13 'cause it sounded to me like somebody else was going to 14 die at the hospital and I was trying to -- I felt we may 15 even have more people that were going to die. 16 So I just -- I know I've said this before 17 that it just -- it -- nothing has affected me more in my 18 life than this incident and this is when it began to 19 really take effect on me personally. 20 So my -- it was -- it was -- it was 21 surreal and I remember John trying to explain and I 22 remember Mr. George being upset and I can certainly 23 understand that; Mr. Ron George. I don't -- I don't 24 remember who the other individual was, I just -- I don't 25 remember that.
631 I knew Ron George 'cause he'd been a 2 police -- I'd played hockey with him so -- and I kind of 3 zeroed in on that, but as to the exact conversation -- I 4 know there was a scribe there, I think -- I know there 5 was a scribe there and I know he took some of the -- and 6 I've read that. But as far as my specific, independent 7 recollection, that's the best I can do for you. 8 Q: And beyond -- so you have really no 9 recollection beyond what you've just told us? 10 A: Well, I -- again, I re -- yes, I 11 remember Mr. George being upset with us and I can 12 certainly understand why. 13 Q: And the scribe note is at page 84 of 14 Tab 19, starting at 01:16 hours. 15 A: I don't know if -- if -- at some 16 point Chief Bressette shows up. Now, I don't know if 17 he's there at -- because my recollection is we have that 18 -- we have a similar conversation with him about the same 19 place, but I don't know if that's -- if they're all 20 together. 21 Q: The -- there's an entry actually, 22 that you and John Carson met with Tom Bressette, Chief 23 Bressette at 1:28 hours, which is -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- after this.
641 A: Okay. 2 Q: And this scribe -- so that when you 3 met with Ron George and Dudley's older brother, I believe 4 it was Reg George, that's who's indicated in the notes. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Did you know Reg George? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And does this note at 1:16 hours 9 assist in your recollection? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Do you remember these things 14 happening? 15 A: Yes. I remember them because I've 16 read -- I mean -- 17 Q: Without the scribe note, you didn't 18 remember? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And you didn't remember a comment, 21 did you, At least put a gun in his hand to make it look 22 good? 23 A: No, I do not recall that comment. 24 Q: And do you recall a comment, Did you 25 find guns on the bus?
651 A: I do not recall that comment, no. 2 Q: And then, Inspector Ron George wanted 3 to go to the hospital. 4 A: Yes, I seem to recall that. 5 Q: And anything else? 6 A: No. Like I said, it was -- it was a 7 very difficult situation. 8 Q: And what do you recall of the meeting 9 with -- if anything, with Chief Bressette? 10 A: Well, I -- I've viewed these notes a 11 number of times prior to my attendance here at the 12 Inquiry, so I don't know if -- what it is I recall as a 13 result of an independent recollection or because I've 14 refreshed my memory, so I -- 15 Q: Your note with respect to the 16 Inspector -- the attendance of Ron George appears at page 17 87 -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- of your notes? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: "Ron George arrives with two (2) 22 other Native males who identify 23 themselves as brothers to Dudley George. 24 Inspector Carson tells them that Dudley 25 is deceased and two (2) other injured
661 Natives at Strathroy Hospital." 2 And then it goes on to John Stevens who we 3 just referred to a moment ago. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And there's no note in your notes 6 about the attendance of Chief Bressette? 7 A: No, but I recall talking to him and 8 I'm sure it was in exactly the same spot that we spoke to 9 Mr. George earlier. 10 Q: And would -- that was just outside -- 11 where was that? 12 A: Front steps of Forest OPP Detachment. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: We were -- we were at the bottom. We 15 were in front of the steps, we weren't even on the stops. 16 Q: And do you recall anything else that 17 -- that Chief Bressette -- about that conversation? 18 A: No, not -- like I said, not 19 independently of what I read. 20 Q: So what -- and the notes that appear 21 at the bottom of page 84 and 85, what -- how did they 22 assist in your recollection? What do you recall, based 23 on that? 24 A: Well, again, that we -- Inspector 25 Carson had a quick conversation with the Chief and again
671 that the Chief said that he didn't support them but he 2 didn't think that we needed to do what it was we did 3 during the night. And -- and again, I take no issue with 4 what -- it's right here that: 5 "John Carson and Mark Wright agree, we 6 didn't want this either." 7 So there -- it was -- it wasn't a very 8 long conversation. He was obviously -- you know he was 9 representing his community and he was concerned, and 10 rightly so, and he wanted some answers, and rightly so, 11 and Inspector Carson was doing the best he could. 12 Q: Okay. Then there's an entry at 1:34, 13 Wade Lacroix to John Carson: 14 "We just had reports of a large number 15 of -- from Kettle Point enroute to the 16 Army Camp." 17 And Wade Lacroix was still there, I take 18 it, at 1:34? 19 A: I guess, yes. 20 Q: And the conversation with Chief 21 Bressette went on until 1:36. 22 "Tom Bressette wants to know where 23 Bernard George is. Mark Wright is going 24 to check on scene." 25 Then:
681 "TOM BRESSETTE: Those guys should have 2 stayed out of there. They've got the 3 Base; they should have waited. I'm not 4 blaming you, they were disgraceful. Saw 5 them on TV." 6 Does that -- do you recall this or -- 7 A: I can -- what I do recall is, and I 8 think the scribe was Shawn Johnson (phonetic) who's now a 9 sergeant, was -- and I stand to be corrected, but I 10 remember the scribe standing right there with us when we 11 were talking to the -- the Chief, so I don't take issue 12 with the accuracy here. 13 Q: And then what -- you go to -- the 14 scribe note indicates you make a telephone call and 15 report back that: 16 "MARK WRIGHT: Cecil Bernard George was 17 reported shot, being transferred to 18 Lon." 19 I take it that refers to London? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: I don't believe he ever -- he was 22 transferred to London? 23 A: No, I don't think he was either. 24 Q: Now, page 80 -- this would be an 25 appropriate time if...
691 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We'll 2 take a morning break now. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for fifteen (15) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 11:45 a.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 12:02 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Taking a step back, Inspector Wright, 16 the individual who was stopped at the armed take down, I 17 believe it was Jeremiah George, and I believe there was 18 evidence from one (1) witness that he was on the ground 19 but his own evidence -- Jeremiah's evidence was that he 20 wasn't on the ground, that he was up, but he was in the - 21 - the parking garage. 22 But you don't remember any -- 23 A: I don't, no. 24 Q: Now the -- at Tab 50 and 51, but 25 there are two (2) copies of the same thing. If you -- I
701 mean Tab 49 and 50 and I'm not going to play this, but 2 you called -- it's Exhibit P-755, P-751 and then the CD 3 of the message is P-755. 4 And you simply called Mark -- Tim McCabe 5 and left him a message about what had happened? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And that at this point it says, if 8 you look at the transcript at Tab 49 of the book: 9 "So I'll see you at eight o'clock in the 10 morning so you're forewarned if you get 11 this. Les is here standing side by each 12 with me and it's 2:17 in the morning. 13 Okay, bye." 14 And Les Kobayashi was at the command post? 15 A: He must have been, yes. 16 Q: Do you recall Les Kobayashi being -- 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And at 2:11 of -- at page 86, there 19 are two (2) entries. I'm trying to determine and have a 20 better understanding as to something that's in the scribe 21 note. 22 At 2:11 there's an indication: 23 "Trevor Richardson to John Carson to 24 confirm deceased, Dudley George, shot in 25 the chest. Seized car that he was
711 transported in Strathroy. Three (3) 2 occupants arrested. 3 St. John's ambulance arrives. Cecil 4 Bernard, George Cottrelle shot in rear." 5 Do you recall whether or not at this point 6 in time Trevor Richardson was in Forest? 7 A: No, I do not recall. 8 Q: And then there's an entry at 2:16 9 that indicates: 10 "Superintendent Parkin and Chief 11 Superintendent Coles arrive. Trevor 12 Richardson and Bob Goodall on route to 13 hospital. 14 Trevor Richardson reviews injuries to 15 Superintendent Parkin and Chief Coles." 16 Does that assist you? I'm trying to 17 determine whether or not he was -- at this point in time 18 Trevor Richardson was in Forest or was not. 19 A: I know he left -- Dew and Speck left 20 first. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And then Richardson was sent, my 23 recollection is after we got the report of the car at 24 Nauvoo Road. 25 Q: And then Richar -- it was Detective
721 Sergeant Richardson who reported back to you initially 2 about the deaths that -- on the phone call we heard you - 3 - John Carson was speaking to Parkin and you were in the 4 background? 5 A: I think so, yes. 6 Q: And did he come back to Forest, do 7 you recall? 8 A: My -- in regards to the report of the 9 deaths? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Well, my recollection is I got that 12 over a phone. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. But then there's another 14 entry that was an earlier entry, this is -- 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: -- an entry at 2:11. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Do you know -- 19 A: Did he -- did he come back? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I don't remember him being there. 22 Q: Then do you know where Don Bell was 23 during the evening of September 6th, the morning of 24 September 7th? 25 A: As a result of my review, I -- I'm --
731 it was my impression that he left with -- he went with 2 Richardson, but I don't have an independent recollection 3 of him leaving with Richardson, nor do I remember him 4 being there. 5 Q: You don't remember him -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- period? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And he was -- what was your 10 understanding of -- on the 6th, of Don Bell's role? 11 A: He was the -- he was in charge of 12 gathering the intelligence information. 13 Q: And Don Bell reported to who? 14 A: He would have reported, ultimately, 15 to Carson. 16 Q: But through whom to Carson? 17 A: Hmm... 18 Q: Directly to Carson or through someone 19 else? 20 A: I can't recall. 21 Q: And Project Maple, which is Exhibit 22 P-474 and that's at Tab 20 -- Tab 16, actually, of your 23 book. The intelligence function is identified -- 24 unfortunately these pages aren't numbered, but it's about 25 eight (8) pages in --
741 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- do you see that? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: The heading, Intelligence function? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I'm -- I'm there. 11 Q: Okay. And it identifies Detective 12 Sergeant Don Bell, and by that entry the -- Don Bell is 13 not -- doesn't indicate he's to report to anyone. 14 Do I take it from that, that he would then 15 report directly to the incident commander, John Carson? 16 A: Sure, yes. 17 Q: Then you had a conversation with Bob 18 Goodall at approximately three o'clock in the morning. 19 Do you recall that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: And what do you recall of that 22 conversation? 23 Do you have any independent recollection 24 of it? 25
751 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I recall -- I have an independent 4 recollection that I talked to Bob Goodall on the phone 5 that evening and I think the rest of it comes from my 6 review of the -- the transcript of that telephone 7 conversation and not anything independent of that. 8 Q: And there's a reference at Tab 86 of 9 the scribe notes, I mean page 86 of the scribe note, Tab 10 18 in your book. 11 "At 2:02 hours, Mark Wright advised by 12 communications unit to call Inspector 13 Goodall. John Carson off road -- off 14 phone, [excuse me]." 15 And then there's an indication that -- 16 there's no indication -- other indication about that 17 telephone call. 18 Do you recall speaking to Inspector 19 Goodall before three o'clock, because we have a 20 transcript of a call at 3:12? 21 A: No, I don't recall. 22 Q: And the -- if you could go to Tab 51 23 of the second book. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
761 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And this is a transcript of the call 3 that I'm about to play, Commissioner. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 Region 24 8 Mark Wright and Bob Goodall 9 September 7, 1995 03:12 hrs 10 Mobile Command Unit Logger Tape #4 Track 1 Disc 2 of 3 11 12 [BG = Detective Inspector Bob Goodall, OPP] 13 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright, OPP] 14 15 [JK = Jim Kennedy, SIU] 16 17 BG: Hello. 18 MW: Hello Bobby! 19 BG: How are you Marcus? 20 MW: Good. How are you? 21 BG: Good, good. Listen everything's okay, 22 everything's stabilized down Strathroy 23 end... 24 MW: Good! 25 BG: ...what I've done is I've dispatched
771 Georgea nd Dewey back 2 MW: 'kay. 3 BG: ...to your location 4 MW: 'kay. 5 BG: Umm - how much cooperation are we getting 6 from our people that are involved as far 7 as what took place and "I.D.'ing" people - 8 perps involved? 9 MW: Well, I'll tell you what. We got - we got 10 the ERT, TRU team weapons, I've got Waddie 11 LaCroix's weapon. Waddie's at home in bed 12 no doubt. And all the ERT guys, the guns 13 weren't taken off them and they're asleep 14 in a motel. 15 BG: Okay, do we have anything at all regarding 16 who were in the vehicles, as far as perps 17 go? 18 MW: Umm - all I know is - you've already 19 talked to those guys down there at the 20 scene? 21 BG: Yeah. 22 MW: Okay. All I know is basically what they 23 told me and Richardson told me that that 24 white car was eyeballed as coming through 25 the - coming through at the guys, and
781 Dudley was in it. 2 BG: Dudley was in it? 3 MW: And that's the same car that they've got 4 there, that's all I know. 5 BG: Okay. What we need -okay. And for the 6 purposes of doing some general warrants 7 down Strathroy is - we need to identify 8 everyone that was involved in those two 9 vehicles. 10 MW: [laughs] Yeah. 11 BG: Okay? 12 MW: Yeah. 13 BG: So I sent Dewey and George back, and what 14 we'll do is we'll get them to team up with 15 Andre, to try and come up with all that 16 information for us. I'm just coming in 17 through Lambton County on 402 so... 18 MW: Sorry. SIU's sitting here at the door... 19 BG: Are they? 20 MW: Yeah. So we haven't talked to our guys and 21 got their guns, or, none of that's 22 happened because we're using all those 23 people - like TRU's still on the ground. 24 BG: Yeah. 25 MW: ...the TRU replacement's an hour away.
791 BG: But surely there must be somebody that we 2 can debrief. 3 MW: Well, they're all in the sack. 4 BG: They are? 5 MW: Anybody who was involved in that, they've 6 been up for over twenty hours. Been in 7 that firefight - they sent them to bed. 8 BG: Tell me something. What time did all this 9 take place at? 10 MW: Phew! [head turned away from phone] What 11 time did this go down guys? Does anybody 12 even have an idea? I don't have a fucking 13 clue and I was here. 14 ??: Eleven- thirty. 15 MW: Eleven-thirty? Eleven-thirty. 16 BG: Eleven-thirty? 17 MW: Yeah, something like that. 18 BG: Yeah. You don't have anything at all, eh 19 Mark? 20 MW: I don't have nothing. 21 BG: No statements, no... 22 MW: [interrupting] No we don't have a f... 23 BG: ...no duty reports? 24 MW: No! Nothing. That they - the guys never 25 even got back here.
801 BG: Okay. 2 MW: And all... 3 BG: [interrupting] And what about -what about 4 the CP itself? Do they have anything? 5 MW: Hey! I'm in it! 6 BG: You're in it? 7 MW: I'm in it! Yeah! And all we did was listen 8 to the ah - the tape. You know what I 9 mean? 10 BG: Yeah, okay.... 11 MW: [interrupting] And its - and its - and its 12 being taped at Chatham's Comm Centre. 13 BG: Okay, was there anything, so - was there 14 anything on the tapes that we can use? 15 16 MW: Well - you can hear rat-tat-tat there's no 17 doubt about that! 18 BG: No, I'm talking about people. Like people 19 names. Anybody got a bead on... 20 MW: [interrupting] No. No. No, no. No, I don't 21 think so. 22 BG: Okay. How long will it take me to get to 23 Forest once I get to 21 and 402? About ten 24 minutes? 25 MW: [laughs] Yeah, at the best.
811 BG: Yeah? 2 MW: You're going to go through checkpoints 3 probably. 4 BG: Okay. Who is the SIU guy that's there? 5 MW: You're ahhh... And your name is? Jim? How 6 are you doing?! Jim Kennedy! 7 BG: Who? 8 MW: Jim. Kennedy. 9 BG: Jim Kennedy? 10 MW: Yeah. 11 BG: Would you tell Jim that I'll be there in 12 about ten minutes. I'll tag team with him. 13 MW: Okay, he's right here. Okay, I'll let him 14 know you're - where you're at. He's ten 15 minutes away. 16 ??: [static] inaudible 17 MW: No, ah... [static] Bobby Goodall. 18 Detective Inspector. [more static] Hang on 19 a sec Bobby. 20 BG: Is Jim on his own? 21 MW: He's right here. Hang on. 22 BG: Okay. 23 JK: Bob. 24 BG: Yes? 25 JK: Yeah, Chris Coles just said you were at
821 Strathroy Hospital so I pulled one of our 2 guys off and into Strathroy to touch base 3 with you there. 4 BG: Oh shit! Well... 5 JK: Well, I'll get him again. 6 BG: Yeah, my main man at Strathroy is Randy 7 Perron (sp?). 8 JK: Okay. Can you touch base with Randy and 9 tell him Don Andrews out of London is 10 coming? 11 BG: Okay. 12 JK: And maybe just fill him in as to the 13 supposed victims and... 14 BG: Okay. 15 JK: ...what went down... 16 BG: [interrupting] I've got a lot of stuff 17 orchestrated that will be of great benefit 18 to both of us Jim. 19 JK: Super! 20 BG: And like I said I'll only be about ten 21 minutes before I'm up your end. Just 22 coming up on 21 now. 23 JK: Okay. Oh, good. And I'm just touching base 24 with John Carson here, the incident 25 commander so.
831 BG: Okay. 2 JK: Okay thanks. Take care. 3 BG: No problem, I'll talk to Randy. 4 JK: You want to... 5 MW: We all done Buddy? 6 BG: Yeah Marcus. If ah - listen! You know what 7 we want. Will you do your best to see 8 what's up there for us? 9 MW: I can - I can do my best brother but what 10 I'll try to do is identify the bodies that 11 we need to wake out of bed for ya. 12 BG: Right on. 13 MW: How's that? 14 BG: Thanks. 15 MW: Okay. Bye. 16 BG: Ciao. 17 18 End of conversation 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Now, I would -- Commissioner, I would 24 ask that the transcript be marked the next exhibit 25 please?
841 THE REGISTRAR: P-1122, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1122: Transcript of Mark Wright and 4 Bob Goodall, Region 24, 5 Mobile Command Unit, logger 6 tape number 4, track number 7 1, disc 2 of 3, Sept. 07, 8 1995, 03:12 hours. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And Inspector Goodall was in charge 12 of the criminal investigation with respect to this 13 incident? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And he was in charge of -- of the 16 investigation from all aspects of it in terms of the 17 police officers involved and the non police officers 18 involved? 19 A: From -- yes, the police side of the 20 investigation. 21 Q: From the police side of the 22 investigation. The SIU were also involved with respect 23 to the shooting? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And the -- he refers to George and
851 Dewey (phonetic) and I take it that's George Speck and 2 Mark Dew? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And then he refers on page 1 to: 5 "How much co-operation are we getting 6 from our people that are involved, as 7 far as what took place, and ID'ing 8 people -- perps involved." 9 And "perps" refers to perpetrators? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And at this point in time, Wade 12 Lacroix had turned in his weapon and had left? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And then at the top of page 2, you 15 say: 16 "All I know is basically what they've 17 told me, and Richardson told me that 18 that white car was eyeballed as coming 19 through the -- coming through at the 20 guys and Dudley was in it." 21 Now, was that information that was 22 provided to you by Trevor Richardson? 23 A: I -- I don't know. 24 Q: And do you have -- did you speak to 25 anyone else, that you can recall today, that provided you
861 that information? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And I'm just trying to -- what I'm 4 trying to understand is -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- the flow of information and the 7 information that came to you, Inspector Wright, because 8 we now know that it was not a white car -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- that Dudley George was not in a 11 white car, it was a black car, it was driven by Warren 12 George and -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- I'm trying to understand how this 15 information -- the information came to you and the 16 sources of it. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: So can you help us? 19 A: Well, I can -- 20 Q: Other than what you -- 21 A: I can tell you what I -- I recollect 22 and know from at that particular time at, you know, three 23 o'clock in the morning, on the morning of September the 24 7th was -- I knew that a car and a bus had been involved 25 in a shooting incident with the OPP officers and that
871 they had returned fire into the car and the bus, and that 2 an individual had showed up at Nauvoo Road suffering a 3 wound from -- a gunshot wound, and then that vehicle had 4 showed up -- that same vehicle had showed up later at the 5 hospital. 6 And I knew there was no other reports of 7 any other gunplay that night because I was in the com 8 centre, in the command post and I would have heard that. 9 So my -- my -- it was reasonable to me 10 that that vehicle was involved in the attempted murder of 11 those OPP officers at that particular time. That's my -- 12 that's what I understood. 13 And as I recall, Trevor Richardson told me 14 that the -- I learned of the white car as it relates to 15 being at Nauvoo Road, and it's the same vehicle that's at 16 the hospital later on. And my recollection is we thought 17 that the white car -- that white car was involved in that 18 -- in the incident for days after that, not hours. 19 But I think it went -- that's my 20 recollection is we were of that mistaken impression for 21 quite some time. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: But... 24 Q: Do you recall when you learned that 25 the white car was not involved?
881 A: No, I don't recall. But it was -- it 2 was my recollection it was days later. And I don't 3 recall -- I don't recall Richards -- Trevor Richardson 4 telling me that, you know, that the car was eyeballed in 5 it and it was the one that was coming through. 6 I mean, I don't -- I don't dispute I said 7 that, I just don't recall that. 8 And I think there's obvious -- well I know 9 there's obvious confusion going on here with respect to 10 what, and I'll just speak for me, what I thought I knew 11 to be the facts. 12 Q: And the -- after this call with 13 Inspector Goodall, what did you do? 14 A: Pardon me? 15 Q: What did you do? What was -- what 16 role did you play? 17 A: Well, I tried to find out who the 18 officers were. Like, I told him, that we're involved in 19 that incident, because I appreciated where -- and this 20 comes back to what you were talking about, about a crime 21 scene. 22 Like, he -- he was the Detective Inspector 23 and I knew he wanted that -- he wanted that crime scene 24 and he wanted to know who, what, where, when and why, and 25 I just didn't have any of those answers because of --
891 because of what had taken place that evening. 2 And -- and I just -- I knew that that's 3 what he was after and I knew I couldn't provide him that 4 information. Those officers were released prior to me 5 having anything to do with it; the ERT -- the ERT 6 officers. 7 Q: And then I take it from the end of 8 this conversation, your task was to try to identify the 9 people that you might have to wake up to -- so that, I 10 take it, for Inspector Goodall to interview them? 11 A: Yeah. Goodall would -- both of us 12 appreciated that I was the Acting Detective Staff 13 Sergeant there, so he would be looking at me to 14 maintaining these certain things until he got there 15 because he would then be the next highest -- the now 16 highest ranking detective on the scene and he would be 17 taking control. 18 So, you know, he called me and -- and 19 established to me that he had everything under control at 20 the hospital. So in my mind, okay, well that -- that 21 relieves me of my concern with respect to the hospital 22 because now an inspector's looking after that. 23 And he's coming to the scene about what -- 24 to the command post about now I want to know about the 25 scene mark, and I'm not in a position to give him a whole
901 lot of help. 2 Q: And with respect to the scene before 3 you left and, well, later in the evening, did you take 4 any steps to secure the sandy parking lot area? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And why not? 7 A: Because it was impossible in my -- in 8 my -- it was out of my hands to begin with. I mean, I 9 was in charge of -- one of my responsibilities would be 10 to secure the crime scene, but there were inspectors, 11 commissioned officers there, in particular Carson and 12 then shortly thereafter Parkin shows up and Chief 13 Superintendent Coles. 14 And things had evolved to where, you know, 15 the maintenance of the crime scene was not a priority, it 16 was about, you know, officer's -- everybody's safety. 17 We had a terrible thing that took place 18 and just, you know, we needed to back off and try to 19 establish some kind of common ground or a buffer zone and 20 -- and the crime scene was the victim of that. 21 Q: Okay. And the -- did you meet with 22 Detective -- I mean, Superintendent Parkin and Chief 23 Superintendent Coles when they came to the command post? 24 A: I remember Superintendent Parkin come 25 -- Parkin coming into the command post in uniform. I
911 don't remember seeing Chief Superintendent Coles; I'm 2 sure he was there, but I don't remember that. 3 Q: And do you -- did you have any 4 conversation, that you can recall, with Superintendent 5 Parkin? 6 A: I'm sure I did, but I don't recall. 7 Q: And subsequently you had a -- a 8 couple of telephone calls with Superintendent Parkin? 9 A: Prior to him attending. 10 Q: Well -- 11 A: Right? 12 Q: I'm just trying to find out if you -- 13 A: Oh no, you're -- I'm sorry, you're 14 correct, I'm -- I'm mistaken. 15 Q: Yeah. It says at -- in Exhibit P- 16 426, page 86 at 02:16 hours that there's Superintendent, 17 it says Parkins but it should be Parkin, and Chief 18 Superintendent Coles arrive. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And these calls, do you know where 21 they went after they -- they came to the Forest command 22 post? 23 A: Yeah. My recollection is they 24 eventually end up at Grand Bend Detachment. 25 Q: And the -- they set up -- and what
921 did they do at Grand Bend? 2 A: They se -- well Chief Superintendent 3 Coles set up a -- his, I guess you'd call it a command 4 centre there, with respect to this incident. 5 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 52, 6 please. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And this is a copy of Exhibit P-1061. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 [CP = Command Post] 13 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 14 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 15 16 CP: Command Post. Peterman 17 ??: [static] ...I couldn't get through on 18 3705. 19 I'm going to transfer Superintendent 20 Parkin [inaudible] 21 CP: Okay. Go ahead. Hello. Hello? 22 AP: Hello. 23 CP: Yeah. Hold on a sec, okay? 24 AP: Yes, I will. thank you. 25 [brief pause]
931 MW: Superintendent? 2 AP: Yes. 3 MW: Hi, its Mark. 4 AP: Mark. How are you doing? 5 MW: Not bad. 6 AP: Are you on a - on a secure line or... ? 7 MW: Yup. No its - its not secure. Do we have 8 one that - isn't? 9 ??: 62 is not taped. 10 MW: Sixty-two. You'll have to call me back at 11 - what's - 786- 1262. 12 AP: 786-1262? 13 MW: Yeah. 14 AP: Is that line free now? 15 MW: Yeah, it is. 16 AP: Okay. From Grand Bend - would that be just 17 a local call? 18 MW: Is Grand Bend to here long distance. I 19 think it is, isn't it? Yes its long 20 distance sir. 21 AP: Okay, Mark, I'll call you back. 22 MW: Okay. I'll sit right here on the phone. 23 AP: Okay. 24 MW: Okay bye. 25 End of conversation
941 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: So he -- as the call indicated, 5 Inspector Parkin wanted to speak to you on a secure 6 phone. By that he meant one that wasn't taped? 7 A: Superintendent Parkin, yes. 8 Q: Yes. Superintendent Parkin. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: That's what you understood? And you 11 gave him the other number? 12 A: Right. Once I identified that we had 13 such an animal. 14 Q: And then he called back on that 15 number? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And the transcript for that call 18 appears at the next tab, Tab 53? 19 A: Right. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 [CP = Command Post] 24 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 25 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright]
951 2 MW: Command Post. Sergeant Wright. 3 AP: Sergeant Wright. 4 MW: Yeah, sir. [puffing] Sorry. 5 AP: Okay. We're back together. 6 MW: Yes. 7 AP: Listen - ummm. When you were talking to me 8 earlier... 9 MW: Yeah. 10 AP: About the shooting. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Now, I'd like to stop. This is 16 Exhibit P-1062. It appears that you spoke to him earlier 17 in the evening. And do you -- does that assist in your 18 recollection? 19 A: Well, I -- I called his -- I think I 20 called him at his home about CIB; I wanted a CIB 21 Inspector. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I think that's what he's referring 24 to. 25 Q: That's what he's referring to?
961 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 5 6 MW: Yep. 7 AP: Ah - we have to report this to the 8 deputy's office. 9 MW: Yeah. 10 11 Dispatcher(s) interference noises 12 13 AP: And I want to make sure we're sending as 14 accurate information as we - as we can. 15 MW: Okay. 16 AP: And we've got a couple of different 17 versions. 18 MW: And I've got - I've been updated as well 19 since I talked to you. 20 AP: You've been updated as well. 21 MW: Yeah. 22 AP: Is Dale Linton around? 23 MW: No. I don't- I don't know - I thought 24 Dale Linton was with you to be quite 25 honest with ya.
971 AP: No. 2 MW: So he's here? Last - I'm told - the last - 3 apparently he's here. I'm in the - up 4 here, he's down in Detachment. I think - 5 he might be with SIU - I don't know. 6 AP: With SIU. 7 MW: Yeah. Johnny's in there too. And Bobby 8 Goodall's here too. May - yeah. 9 AP: What I want to know is - as accurately as 10 possible. Do you feel you have a good 11 handle on what took place there now? 12 MW: Yes, I think I do. And - but - and - I've 13 got the TRU team leader who was - 14 AP: [interrupting] Is Kent there? 15 MW: Yeah. He's right on the ground there. 16 AP: Okay. All right. 17 MW: But I - ahh - maybe I should turn him over 18 to you. But what I can tell you is, you 19 know I said we had that guy in custody and 20 then he was shot? 21 AP: Yes. 22 MW: Well, apparently he wasn't shot. It 23 appears that - they - they - they appear 24 to be flashlight-inflicted wounds to the 25 head.
981 AP: Uh-huh. 2 MW: Okay. So a blunt instrument to the head. 3 Rather than a round to the head. 4 AP: All right. So let's take it to the - just 5 take it back to the start here. 6 MW: Yeah. 7 AP: Ahh. The ERT teams were down there. 8 MW: Right. 9 AP: And they were down there as a result of 10 there being a previous incident with the 11 car being damaged. 12 MW: Right. 13 AP: That the councilor was in. 14 MW: Right. 15 AP: Is that correct? 16 MW: Correct. 17 AP: So that puts them down there. 18 MW: Yeah. 19 AP: And when they were down there, there was a 20 large group of - 21 MW: Yeah. 22 AP: ...First Nations. 23 MW: Yup. 24 AP: ...And they came out of the Park. 25 MW: They were already out of the Park.
991 AP: They were already out of the Park when we 2 arrived? 3 MW: Yes. [emphasis] Yes. 4 AP: Okay. So, the plan was then to put them 5 back into the Park? 6 MW: That's right. 7 AP: So the ERT team moved in ... to do that? 8 MW: Right. Supported by TRU team because we 9 had - we were concerned about weapons in 10 there. So the TRU team was covering them. 11 AP: Okay. So the ERT team moved in. 12 MW: Yeah. 13 AP: ...moved the people back. 14 MW: Right. 15 AP: ...into the Park. 16 MW: Right. 17 AP: And they had cover - umm - provided by the 18 TRU team... 19 MW: Right. 20 AP: Because of the concern about weapons - 21 MW: That's right. Because we had heard 22 automatic gunfire the night before, as 23 you're aware. 24 AP: Okay. 25 MW: And when I talked to these guys about -
1001 ah - three o'clock in the morning, the one 2 guy said,- you know, I was talking to 3 him, "we need to talk" etcetera etcetera 4 he says "we'll do our talking with guns". 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And that reference there, three 10 o'clock in the morning, was not at three o'clock in the 11 morning. Was that not the reference at three o'clock the 12 afternoon of September the 6th? 13 A: Yes, yes. 14 Q: So that when it says three o'clock in 15 the morning it's really referring to three o'clock in the 16 afternoon -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- of September the 6th? 19 A: Right. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 22 23 AP: Right, okay. 24 MW: Okay? 25 AP: All right. So we've got the TRU team,
1011 they're supporting them in case there is 2 any weapons. 3 MW: Right. 4 AP: The ERT team move in to move them back. 5 MW: Right. 6 AP: With shields? 7 MW: Ah - yes. Some of them had shields. Yes. 8 AP: Oh. Some of them had shields. 9 MW: It's a full CMU they call it - Crowd 10 Management Unit. Two full teams together 11 with a staff sergeant in charge as per 12 policy. 13 AP: Okay. A full Crowd Management team with a 14 staff sergeant in charge. 15 MW: Yeah. Lacroix. 16 AP: Okay. That was Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 17 MW: Yup. 18 AP: Okay. So they move in to push them back. 19 MW: Yeah. 20 AP: Were they successful? 21 MW: They did. They moved them back to the - 22 the people moved back into the fence line. 23 AP: Okay. So they were successful in moving 24 them back into the fence line. 25 MW: That's right.
1021 AP: And then... 2 MW: The... the... 3 AP: ...we started to retreat? 4 MW: Right.. They started to back up. 5 AP: Okay. We started to back up. The ERT 6 team. 7 MW: Yeah, yeah. 8 AP: Then, the First Nations came off of the 9 Park again. 10 MW: Right. Right back out. 11 AP: Right back out. 12 MW: That's right. So the TRU - the ERT team 13 moved in again. 14 AP: The ERT team moved in again. 15 MW: And then they - no that's not right. What 16 happened was the- the First Nations came 17 back. Okay? 18 AP: Yeah. 19 MW: The ERT team was moving back. 20 AP: Yeah. 21 MW: And then a TRU team guy said he thought 22 one guy had a rifle. So Lacroix had the - 23 the - Crowd Management Unit split, and go 24 to one knee. 25 AP: Okay. So the TRU team guy,...
1031 MW: Yeah. 2 AP: Thought that he - thought that one of the 3 - First... 4 MW: natives 5 AP: ...had a... 6 MW: Weapon. Long gun. 7 AP: ...So he communicated that to... 8 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. The C.M. - Wade 9 Lacroix. 10 AP: Wade? 11 MW: ... The leader. Yeah. 12 AP: So Wade split the team. 13 MW: Split the team - and they all went down on 14 one knee. 15 AP: And they all went down on one knee. 16 MW: ...One knee. And the TRU team - uumm - 17 AP: The TRU team was still keeping 18 observation. 19 MW: Yeah. They had the bead on them. They had 20 two - what they call Sierra teams on them, 21 sniper teams... 22 AP: Sniper teams 23 MW: ...and a- and a reaction team, I forget 24 what they call that but ... 25 AP: Immediate reaction
1041 MW: Yeah. 2 AP: Yeah. 3 MW: And ah - there was a few minutes like 4 that. And then it came from TRU that he 5 did not [emphasized] have a rifle. It was 6 a - a - a stick or a ... 7 AP: Okay, so then... 8 MW: ... a piece of wood of some sort. 9 AP: All right. So TRU - ahh- identified that 10 in fact the individual did not have a 11 weapon... 12 MW: Yeah. 13 AP: ...it was a stick or something... 14 MW: That's right. 15 AP: All right. And then what happens? 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Now, that's the information we talked 21 about earlier that was -- the sequence of events as you 22 related it in your notes earlier this morning we talked 23 about in -- Superintendent Parkin, was in error. 24 A: Yes. I -- that's -- I'm consistently 25 inaccurate in that point up until and including I give
1051 civil discovery to Mr. Klippenstein in 2001, I think, and 2 I -- I continue that until it's brought to my attention 3 at that time that I'm incorrect. 4 So all those years, that's what I thought 5 happened. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 8 9 MW: Then, that's - that's the second time that 10 they've come over, okay? 11 AP: Right. 12 MW: And again, before that, when they jumped 13 over the fence the first time, its quite 14 clear on the tape, and I recall this, you 15 know, very clearly, that Wade gets it from 16 - Wade tells - the Command Post, where 17 John is, that they're back in the Park and 18 the message comes back, do not enter the 19 Park. Take a defensive mode. 20 And that's what Wade - Waddie - gives to 21 his people. So there's no attempt 22 whatsoever to go into the Park. Okay?" 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 25
1061 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And we spoke about this earlier -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- this morning as well. 5 A: Right. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 8 9 AP: Yeah, yeah. That's fine... 10 MW: That's the first time. 11 AP: ...so we're just taking a defensive mode. 12 MW: Right. So then we move back and they come 13 across and then there's this thing about 14 maybe this guy's got a gun and he doesn't 15 - and then Waddie moves his people in to - 16 to move them back, and they engage. 17 AP: Okay. So, they're down on one knee... 18 MW: Yeah. 19 AP: ...and then its clear that the fella 20 doesn't have a gun... 21 MW: Right. 22 AP: ... so now they get back up in formation? 23 MW: Yeah 24 AP: So now they reform. 25 MW: Yeah.
1071 AP: And now where do they go? 2 MW: And they - they engage - the First Nations 3 people. 4 AP: Okay. So now they engage the First Nations 5 people. 6 MW: Yeah. 7 AP: All right. 8 MW: At a - in the public area. 9 AP: In the public area. 10 MW: Yeah. And they make an arrest. They effect 11 an arrest. And one ERT guy is assaulted 12 with a two-by-four over his back, during 13 this. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And the information that an ERT guy 19 is assaulted with a 2x4 over his back, do you recall the 20 source of that information and who that officer was? 21 A: It was a constable who -- and I -- I 22 seem to recollect that I got that from as the officers 23 came back, like as the ERT officers came back I spoke to 24 a number of them. 25 So I think I got that directly from the
1081 officer. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall who the 3 officer -- 4 A: No. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 7 8 AP: Yeah, yeah. That's fine... 9 MW: That's the first time. 10 AP: ...so we're just taking a defensive mode. 11 MW: Right. So then we move back and they come 12 across and then there's this thing about 13 maybe this guy's got a gun and he doesn't 14 - and then Waddie moves his people in to - 15 to move them back, and they engage. 16 AP: Okay. So, they're down on one knee... 17 MW: Yeah. 18 AP: ...and then its clear that the fella 19 doesn't have a gun... 20 MW: Right. 21 AP: ... so now they get back up in formation? 22 MW: Yeah 23 AP: So now they reform. 24 MW: Yeah. 25 AP: And now where do they go?
1091 MW: And they - they engage - the First Nations 2 people. 3 AP: Okay. So now they engage the First Nations 4 people. 5 MW: Yeah. 6 AP: All right. 7 MW: At a - in the public area. 8 AP: In the public area. 9 MW: Yeah. And they make an arrest. They effect 10 an arrest. And one ERT guy is assaulted 11 with a two-by-four over his back, during 12 this. 13 AP: Okay. So what - during the arrest - 14 MW: Yeah 15 AP: ...one ERT member... 16 MW: Yeah 17 AP: ...is assaulted... 18 MW: [interrupting] ...with a two-by-four to 19 the back. 20 AP: With a two-by-four to the back. 21 MW: That's right. 22 AP: Okay. So they've got this individual under 23 arrest? 24 MW: Yeah. 25 AP: And they -
1101 MW: Thy pull - and they're - pulling back. 2 They're all pulling back because all the 3 rest of them are back over on the ahh... 4 AP: Was the arrest made because we were 5 assaulted with - by the...? 6 MW: I don't know, Sir. Its - you know. I 7 couldn't tell you that. Don't know. 8 AP: But that happened at the same time as the 9 arrest was being ... 10 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. Yeah. 11 AP: Okay. 12 MW: Like - like our position was to arrest 13 them, anybody we found in there, because 14 there was - they were committing the 15 offense of mischief with respect - that's 16 pub - public property. 17 AP: Yes. 18 MW: And also, also possessions of weap - 19 possessions of weapons dangerous because 20 of the clubs and stuff they had in their 21 hand. So anybody we found in there, we 22 were going to arrest. 23 AP: Okay. 24 MW: Okay? 25 AP: Okay. So, they've got the guy under
1111 arrest. 2 MW: Yeah. And then they're back... 3 AP: While they were arresting him, one of our 4 ERT team members gets hit over the back... 5 MW: Yeah. 6 AP: ...by a club. 7 MW: Yeah, yeah. 8 AP: And so, they're still withdrawing when 9 this guy...? 10 MW: [interrupting] Yeah, yeah, that's right. 11 And then all of a sudden - it hits the 12 fan. 13 AP: So now, the bus comes driving...? 14 MW: through 15 AP: ...out of the Park. Through the fence? 16 MW: Yeah. Well no. There's a - they've got a 17 large, industrial garbage container... 18 AP: Yeah 19 MW: ...blocking a gateway... 20 AP: Right 21 MW: ...And the bus comes through, that. 22 AP: Okay. So the bus comes through - knocks an 23 industrial garbage container out of the 24 way... 25 MW: Yeah. Into our guys. In the direction of
1121 our guys. 2 AP: It knocks it towards our people. 3 MW: And the bus comes barreling at our people 4 with a car right behind it 5 AP: Okay. So the bus comes out, with the car 6 behind it. 7 MW: Right on. 8 AP: All right. 9 MW: And ah, then the -the guys - our ERT team 10 starts to scatter, 'cause they're trying 11 to get away of this and from what I 12 understand, some of our guys are - receive 13 minor injuries 'cause they're knocked by 14 the bus and/or the car. 15 AP: So, okay. When the bus comes out, its 16 followed by the car. Now, does the car get 17 up beside the bus? 18 MW: Don't know. 19 AP: Don't know. Okay. But they - but our ERT 20 team now starts to scatter because they're 21 - basically running for their safety? 22 MW: That's right! Yeah. 23 AP: To get out of the way. 24 MW: Yeah. 25 AP: All right. And then what happens?
1131 MW: And ahh - ahh - I remember John telling 2 Bressette this, was that it actually was 3 like brushing our guys in - there's a bit 4 of a bluff there on one side - and the bus 5 was pushing our guys up against it, trying 6 to push them into that bluff. And he says 7 they were being knocked down like 8 dominoes, he said. 9 AP: So some of our guys were knocked down by 10 the bus? 11 MW: Yeah, yeah. 12 AP: Okay. 13 MW: Yeah. That's my understanding. And some 14 received minor injuries. 15 AP: Okay. 16 MW: And then there's - gunfire. Coming out of 17 the bus, and the car. 18 AP: Okay. Now there's gunfire. Coming out of 19 the bus and the car. 20 MW: That's right. 21 AP: Okay. 22 MW: And then, ahhh - we returned fire. 23 AP: And we returned fire. 24 MW: That's right. And then it gets real quiet. 25 AP: And then - things got quiet.
1141 MW: Yeah. And then - the next thing I hear - I 2 don't know how the bus or the car got out 3 of there or whether they turned around. I 4 don't know how that - how they left the 5 scene, but ummm... 6 AP: You - you don't know where the bus went? 7 MW: I don't know where the bus - I don't know 8 if it stopped and turned around and went 9 back - 10 AP: [interrupting] Is Skinner there? 11 MW: He just left, but can you get - Skinner? 12 He's the - TRU Team Leader. 13 ??: [unknown female] Ken right? 14 MW: Yeah, Ken. And ummm- but anyways -they 15 ahh - the next thing I - I hear is that 16 there's ummm - Waddie comes over and he 17 says that there's been ummm - ummm - 18 gunfire exchange - something to that 19 effect. And they need ambulances there. 20 AP: Okay. So Wade comes on the air saying that 21 there's been gunfire 22 MW: Yeah 23 AP: ... and that they need ambulances. 24 MW: That's right. 25 AP: Okay.
1151 MW: And then ahh - Wade calls - umm - there's 2 an arrest van there and he tells his 3 people to get behind the arrest van, and 4 he wants a count of his people. So there's 5 a count made of his people, and 6 everybody's accounted for. 7 AP: All right. Is Kent back there yet? 8 MW: No. 9 AP: 'kay. What I want to know, is after the 10 gunfire was exchanged - 11 MW: What'd they do? 12 AP: Yeah. Where'd the bus go? Where did the 13 car go? 14 MW: Yeah, he's right here. 15 AP: Oh, okay. 16 MW: Ken- where - after the gunfire was 17 exchanged, do you know how the - how the 18 bus, and the car, like, where did they go? 19 Did they turn around and go into the Park? 20 Or... (pause) He doesn't know either. 21 And ahh - we don't have - we don't have 22 anybody here that was down there do we? 23 There's nobody here that was down there. 24 ??: [inaudible] ... 'cause they're on the 25 ground still...
1161 MW: Yeah. TRU team's still on the ground., so 2 I don't have that for ya. 3 ??: [inaudible] 4 MW: Yeah, 'cause the TRU team . Brian... 5 Deevey's TRU team's here, so they're 6 going in, and they're - his TRU team's 7 coming out, but... 8 AP: Yeah, but the crunch we're in is... 9 MW: [interrupting] ...Is where did the bus and 10 the car go - right? 11 AP: Well yeah, that's part of it - Do you have 12 the names of the individuals -? 13 MW: That - fired? 14 AP: That - that were shot. We know that 15 there's Dudley George... 16 MW: Yeah. 17 AP: Do we have the other names yet? 18 MW: Just a sec - I think - [pause - long 19 sigh] I'm busy right now, I can't help 20 them. Ummm... 21 [long sigh] ...Jesus... okay, well I think 22 - so this doesn't turn into a cluster, I - 23 you want to know where the vehicles went, 24 you want to know who the peop - who the 25 injured parties were, ...
1171 AP: Yeah 2 MW: Right? And I'm not going to give you a 3 half-assed answer, so I prefer to go - 4 what else do you want? 5 AP: Okay. We want to know where the vehicles 6 went after the shooting... 7 MW: Yeah, got it. 8 AP: ... Okay. Ahh... the names of the... 9 MW: [interrupting] Yeah 10 AP: ... victims... 11 MW: Yeah. 12 AP: ...How they got to hospital? 13 MW: [clears throat] 14 AP: Okay. Now earlier you had said to me, that 15 we had a guy in custody... 16 MW: Yeah. 17 AP: ...and then, that puts Dudley - was he 18 driving? 19 MW: I - I don't know if he was - I don't know 20 if he was driving, but he was shot in the 21 ahhh- up in the clavicle area ... 22 AP: yeah 23 MW: Okay? So the guy said he must have been 24 sitting right in the car bec -you know... 25 AP: ...in the car
1181 MW: Yeah. And pow! 2 AP: And somebody else is in the car. Are there 3 only... 4 MW: [interrupting] There's three 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Now the information to the guys: 10 "he must have been sitting right in 11 the car because you know.. 12 In the car. 13 Yeah, and pow." 14 Was that -- do you recall who was the 15 source of that information? Was it Sergeant Richardson? 16 A: I don't know. It might have been him 17 or -- or Mark Dew. I was talking to him on the phone 18 too, off and on. 19 Q: And that was somebody's speculation 20 based on the injury I take it from this? 21 A: Right. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 24 25 MW: ...people in the car, plus him is my
1191 understanding. But I'll - I'll confirm 2 that, okay? 3 AP: Confirm that. Confirm who was in the car; 4 and... 5 MW: [interrupting] our numbers in the hospital 6 AP: ...in the hospital; who's dead. 7 MW: Yeah. 8 AP: The guy under arrest - where did he end 9 up? 10 MW: He's - been transferred to London with 11 injuries to the head. 12 AP: He's been transferred to London... 13 MW: Yeah 14 AP: ...with injuries to the head. 15 MW: Right. He's the flashlight or blunt 16 instrument guy. 17 AP: And we don't know how that was caused? 18 MW: Nope! 19 AP: Okay. Now, okay. Umm - all right. Get 20 that information for me. 21 MW: I will. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1201 Q: And the -- the reference to the -- 2 the person with injuries, that was Cecil Bernard George 3 and as we discussed earlier, he didn't go to London? 4 A: Right. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 7 8 AP: As quickly as possible. 9 MW: 238 -2305 10 AP: [interrupting] And! I have another 11 question. 12 MW: Yeah. 13 AP: Did Ovide Mercredi call you? 14 MW: Yup. 15 AP: Do you have the number for him? 16 MW: I think its still on the chalkboard - hang 17 on okay? I'll be right back, all right? 18 AP: Okay. 19 [Pause] 20 MW: Got it! Area code 613. 21 AP: Area code 613 22 MW: 830 23 AP: 830? 24 MW: 22 - 25 AP: 22.
1211 MW: 11 2 AP: 11. Excellent. Is that - you don't know 3 whether that's a home or a -? 4 MW: I have no idea. 5 AP: Well, when he called... 6 MW: Yeah 7 AP: How did he - did he ask for anybody in 8 particular? 9 MW: Well, he was given - he called the Comm 10 Centre I think... 11 AP: Called the Comm Centre - is that what he 12 did? 13 MW: ... in Chatham ... 14 AP: in Chatham, yeah... 15 MW: ... is that what he did? Yeah, and they 16 gave him my name. 17 AP: And they gave him your name. So then when 18 he called and asked for you! 19 MW: Yup. 20 AP: And he - what did he ask you? 21 MW: Well, he identified himself... 22 AP: Yup. 23 MW: ...And he said - and he said who I am and 24 I said I know who you are! [laughs] 25 AP: Yup.
1221 MW: And he says I received a call from Tom 2 Bressette's wife. 3 AP: He received a call from Tom Bressette's 4 wife. 5 MW: Yeah. Earlier that evening about the 6 situation down at Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park. 8 AP: Okay, earlier in the evening about the 9 situation in Ipperwash, yeah. 10 MW: Yeah. And his information was that - ahhh 11 - we - umm- you know- that there were 12 some people out on the public area and 13 that we were going to move them back. 14 AP: What- what was the end result? 15 MW: What was the end result? 16 AP: Yeah. 17 MW: He wanted to know whether we were going to 18 put them into the - we were going into the 19 Park - that night. 20 AP: He wanted to know whether we were going to 21 go into the Park. And... 22 MW: And I told him that I wasn't in a position 23 to answer his questions ... 24 AP: 'kay. 25 MW: ...and that I would get a hold of my
1231 commanding officer and that he would 2 return his call and we never did. 3 AP: Okay. All right. Well that was a good 4 answer. 5 MW: Yeah. That's what I thought too. [ laughs] 6 I asked him who he represented - like was 7 he - was he now calling on their behalf or 8 was he asked to be their representative 9 and he said no I'm just calling as the 10 Grand Chief, and my concern is for all 11 First Nation's people. So, okay, so as far 12 as I was concerned you know he... 13 AP: [interrupting] All right. Get onto that 14 other [inaudible] 15 MW: [interrupting] Yup. 16 AP: We need the names... 17 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. A.S.A.P. 18 AP: Yeah, because... 19 MW: [interrupting] Yeah, I know. You got to 20 get it on. 21 AP: ...call... 22 MW: Right on! 23 AP: No, I meant... 24 MW: [interrupting] 238-2345. Right? 25 AP: Yeah. Grand Bend detachment.
1241 MW: Yup. I'll get on it- I'm working on it 2 right now. 3 AP: Thank you. 4 MW: Okay sir. 5 AP: Bye. 6 MW: Bye. 7 End of conversation 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Now we'll come back to the next call 13 that you had. 14 But did you make some enquiries in order 15 to respond to the questions from Superintendent Parkin? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: And do you recall today who you made 18 the enquiries of? 19 A: I think I received the information 20 from Detective Constable Mark Dew. 21 Q: From Mark Dew? And you indicated 22 that when the ERT teams came back you spoke to some of 23 the members of the ERT teams? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you recall today what you were
1251 told by the ERT team, the people who came back on the ERT 2 team, what they said to you? 3 A: Vaguely. 4 Q: Can you tell us what you recall? 5 A: I recall that they -- they talked 6 about the -- you know standing in the sandy parking lot 7 and the -- the firebrands coming at them and debris being 8 thrown at them. 9 And that it was difficult to see because 10 there were lights flashing, lights turned on and it was 11 refracting through their plexiglass shields and the -- 12 the masks -- I mean the shields, the plexiglass cover on 13 their helmets and you know the general confrontation that 14 they had with the -- the occupiers when they came back 15 over the fence line and that some of the -- the 16 altercations I guess that took place with respect to the 17 -- when they -- when they engaged, when the police and 18 the First Nations people engaged in the sandy parking 19 lot. 20 And I remember one (1) officer telling me 21 he -- he had -- there was a mark on his -- on his lower 22 lip and it later -- we later -- it would appear that what 23 happened was, my recollection is that part of his -- a 24 piece of his tooth sheared into his bottom lip because of 25 the -- the contact that he had with the individuals down
1261 there. 2 And so it was that kind of conversation. 3 There were -- you know there were -- there were some 4 minor injuries. There was some other -- some other talk 5 about -- some of the guys told me about getting hit by 6 the car and -- and/or the bus or rolling very close to 7 the bus and/or the car; another officer having to -- 8 almost being hit by the bus as it came down a fence line 9 and the officer rolling back over the fence line to avoid 10 the bus as it came down the fence toward him. 11 So it was that -- it was the -- a play by 12 play of basically what happened down there from a number 13 of them. 14 Q: And was it your understanding from 15 the information you provided to -- were provided by the 16 ERT team members that the confrontation with the car and 17 the bus, did it take place before or after the arrest of 18 the individual? 19 A: After. They were leaving the Park. 20 They were -- they were leaving the sandy parking lot and 21 my recollection is they were -- they were off the sandy 22 parking lot and on the roadway when the bus and the car 23 came through. I'm not saying that that's accurate, I'm 24 just saying that's my recollection. 25 Q: And they were leaving, having made
1271 the arrest of the one (1) individual? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And do you recall today whether you 4 spoke to any of the arrest team? 5 A: No, no. Because I didn't know -- no, 6 I guess is the short answer. 7 Q: Because you didn't -- you were going 8 to say, Because I didn't know what? 9 A: Well, I didn't know -- I -- I didn't 10 know -- eventually we sent a -- an ambulance down there 11 and I think it's clear from the -- the tapes that I'm not 12 sure who this third person is that's injured and I -- I 13 don't really put together that the person who's -- the 14 other person who's injured is the person who they arrest 15 because clearly when I'm talking to Parkin later on I 16 want to make clear that well, this guy's injured from 17 some blunt trauma. It's not like he was shot. 18 So I mean I just -- I had -- 19 Q: At that point in time you didn't know 20 who it was? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And do you recall today anything else 23 that the officers told you about the confrontation? 24 A: Well, generally that -- you know they 25 were -- it's -- they were scared. Like it was a -- it
1281 was a very intense moment and they were glad to be out of 2 there. 3 Q: Okay. And before we go back to your 4 next conversation with Tony Parkin, there was we heard on 5 Exhibit P-119(sic), which was the ambulance conversation. 6 It's at Tab 42 of the book in front of you. We went 7 through this the last time you were here. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And one of the things that was 10 identified on this transcript, Exhibit P-119 (sic) was a 11 -- an involvement with a red Nova, a car leaving the army 12 camp. 13 Do you recall that? 14 A: Right. I recall that. 15 Q: And you had asked -- I believe it was 16 you who had asked Sergeant Cousineau if he was handling 17 that -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- that call? And he said that he 20 wasn't because he was engaged with the ambulances. 21 And do you recall what happened as a 22 result of the police officers following that particular 23 car? 24 A: My independent recollection doesn't 25 start until I -- I'm speaking with Clelland some hours
1291 later and he tells me about we have some individual in 2 custody, a lady in custody. 3 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what your 4 recollection is with your discussion with Clelland? 5 A: Sure. Is that he told me we had -- 6 we had -- I believe it was a lady in custody as a result 7 of this chase or this pursuit. 8 And my concern was, very quickly, was 9 well do we know who she is and do we know what the 10 offences are and I wanted her released unconditionately - 11 - unconditionally immediately, because the situation was 12 such there that there was absolutely no need to have that 13 lady, I'm sure it was a lady, in custody at Forest 14 Detachment during what was going on there. 15 So I said let's just take her to where she 16 needs to go and if we're going to process the charges, 17 then we'll do that by way of summons and let's get her 18 out of here. 19 Q: And what's -- were you told anything 20 about potential charges, why she was being held? 21 A: I just vaguely remem -- just -- I 22 really wasn't too concerned about that. I recall that 23 there -- it was a result of the pursuit and that she was 24 under arrest as a result of that pursuit. 25 I -- I -- my independent recollection is -
1301 - is -- doesn't go much more than that. My concern was, 2 do we know who she is and we know what the offences are, 3 and we know where she lives. Let's get her out of here, 4 this is no place for her to be. 5 And let's -- and -- and I had that done 6 immediately. 7 Q: And do you recall anything else about 8 the incident with this lady? 9 A: No. I know that it was done. 10 Q: That she was released? 11 A: That Clelland did what I asked him to 12 do and I think we trans -- she was driven somewhere, I 13 think -- I think in Forest. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But I could be wrong. 16 Q: And, Commissioner, I -- Ms. Ferrier, 17 advised me that with respect to Tab 42, I may have said 18 P-119. It's P-1119, it's a transcript reference. It's 19 Inquiry document 2000604. 20 Then could you please turn to Tab 54 of 21 the book in front of you and this is a transcript of a 22 call, excuse me, that's been marked Exhibit P-1063. 23 And it was a call between you and 24 Superintendent Parkin at approximately 4:31, give or take 25 seven (7) minutes, on the morning of September the 7th.
1311 A: Yes. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 4 5 [GH = Sergeant Gary Hamilton, Grand Bend Police] 6 7 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 8 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 9 10 GH: Provincial Police Grand Bend. Sergeant 11 Hamilton. 12 MW: Hi Gary. It's Mark. 13 GH: Yeah Mark. 14 MW: Can I speak to Superintendent Parkin 15 please? 16 GH: O-kay... 17 MW: Big tall thin guy... 18 GH: Huh? 19 MW: Big tall guy. 20 GH: Oh, I know Tony. Known him a long - okay 21 he'll be at 42-20. Hold on there. 22 MW: Won't Charlie be surprised when he walks 23 into Grand Bend? 24 AP: Superintendent Parkin. 25 MW: Hi sir, its Mark.
1321 AP: Yeah! 2 MW: Got those answers for ya. 3 AP: Great! 4 MW: Okay. Ready? 5 AP: Yes I am. 6 MW: Vehicles, how'd they get - where they go 7 after the shooting? 8 AP: Mmhmm? 9 MW: They went back into the Park. 10 AP: Okay. 11 MW: Okay. Dead, is Anthony O'Brien George. 12 AP: Okay. Dead. 13 MW: Yes. 14 AP: Anthony. 15 MW: Yeah. O'Brien. 16 AP: O'Brien. 17 MW: Yeah. George. 18 AP: Ahh - that's not Dudley George? 19 MW: Yes it is. 20 AP: Oh, it is? 21 MW: Yep. 22 AP: Oh, so "Dudley''s his nickname? 23 MW: Yup. 24 AP: Okay. 25 MW: Okay, in serious condition is Bernard
1331 Cecil George. 2 AP: Bernard Cecil George. 3 MW: Being transferred to London hospital. I 4 don't know which one. 5 AP: Transferred to... 6 MW: [interrupting] Being transferred I would 7 say would be accurate because when our 8 guys left, that was the information they 9 got but he hadn't actually been put in 10 anything and taken away when they left so- 11 AP: And he's serious? 12 MW: Serious. Would be accurate. 13 AP: Yup. 14 MW: The other guy is Nicholas Cottrelle. And 15 ah - I'm - he's described to me as ahh - 16 like a grazed - ahh - bullet to the lower 17 back. Looks like its grazed - both sides 18 of his back. I mean, on either side of his 19 spine you know? 20 AP: Yeah. 21 MW: But he's going to be just fine. Right 22 Dewey?- Yup. He's going to be just fine. 23 AP: Okay. Good. Do we have ages? 24 MW: Do we have ages? No. 25 AP: Okay.
1341 MW: Not at this time. They're all adults. We 2 can tell - to say that, right, Nicholas? 3 No? 4 Dew: No. Cottrelle is a - is a young offender. 5 MW: Cottrelle is a young offender. 6 AP: Y.O. eh? 7 MW: Young person. 8 AP: Okay. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And that was Constable Mark Dew who 14 responded to you? 15 A: Right. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 18 19 AP: Okay. Ummm- all right. So... 20 MW: 'kay... 21 AP: The vehicles leave. Now - 22 MW: I've got some more information if you want 23 it. 24 AP: Okay. Go ahead. 25 MW: Okay. Nicholas Cottrelle got to the
1351 hospital via Forest District Ambulance. 2 AP: Okay. 3 MW: Bernard George got there via St. John's 4 ambulance. 5 AP: Yeah. 6 MW: And Anth - Dudley - got there by a white 7 car. 8 AP: White car. 9 MW: Yeah, now. At the - in the white car when 10 it showed up at Strathroy Hospital, there 11 were four people in it. 12 AP: Yeah. 13 MW: Dudley. A guy by the name of J.G., he's a 14 Y.O. - fourteen years. 15 AP: Yeah. 16 MW: And Kenny - and - sorry - Perry and 17 Caroline George, who are brother and 18 sister of Dudley. 19 AP: [whispered] Oh, Jesus. [long sigh] Yeah. 20 MW: Now J.G., age fourteen, is charged with 21 mischief - 22 ??: Arrested. 23 MW: Arrested for mischief - pardon me. 24 AP: Yeah. 25 MW: And the other two are under arrest for
1361 attempt murder. 2 AP: Do they think that they were in the car 3 when the shooting took place? 4 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. But don't hold your 5 breath for those charges ever sticking. 6 AP: Okay 7 MW: ...but that's the word hanging round. 8 AP: You got the vehicle. 9 MW: We got the vehicle. 10 AP: Okay. Ahhh - All right. Now - so who - 11 MW: Who? 12 AP: ...was the individual that's being 13 transferred to London with the head 14 trauma? 15 MW: Bernard Cecil George. 16 AP: Okay. So he was - he was not in the 17 vehicle. He was - ours. 18 MW: He was ours. Yeah. He's got injury to his 19 head consistent with blunt instrument. 20 That's not from a doctor, that's from my 21 detective that was down there. Right 22 Dewey? 23 Dew: That's right. 24 MW: Yeah. Front and back. 25 AP: [inaudible]... on the bus?
1371 MW: Well. Maybe the bus, maybe while he was 2 under - being placed under arrest - who 3 knows. 4 AP: Okay. All right. So then - our officers 5 would have loaded him into the St. John's 6 ambulance? 7 MW: Yeah. 8 AP: Okay. Nicholas Cottrelle. He goes in 9 Forest ambulance. 10 MW: Yeah. And George disappears. 11 AP: [interrupting] But he left the scene in 12 the vehicle with Anthony George. 13 MW: Well we don't know - well - one - one - 14 well Cottrelle could have been in the bus 15 too. 'Cause he was shot - but he could 16 have been in the bus too. Like I don't 17 know who they're trying - 18 ??: [interrupting] He may have been in the 19 bus. Yeah. [may be Mark Dew] 20 [Dew?]: The story I overheard... 21 MW: Hang on a sec. 22 [Dew?]: The story I overhead was he was standing 23 beside the car, when he was shot - and 24 then he sat down on the passenger side of 25 the car but you know that's...
1381 ??: So the car stopped? 2 ??: ...bullshit... 3 MW: Yeah, I - He could have been - he could 4 have been in the car. Unknown if he was in 5 the car or in the bus. I think that's the 6 most accurate description. 7 AP: Okay - Nicholas Cottrelle? 8 MW: Yeah. 9 AP: Okay. All right. 10 MW: Yeah. I have Inspector Carson here. 11 AP: Yeah. 12 ??: You had! 13 MW: I- [laughs] I had? Shit! He's made a liar 14 out of me again. He's busy bebopping 15 around here. ... but do you want me to 16 go track him down? It won't be hard and 17 you can go over this again with him 18 because he was at the TOC - as the 19 Incident Command and so he - 20 AP: What - what - what time did it take place? 21 MW: Around elevenish is what we can best 22 figure. 23 AP: Best - or - best you can figure is around 24 eleven? 25 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. Around eleven
1391 o'clock. 2 AP: Okay. Oh yeah, it was totally dark in 3 there? 4 MW: Yeah. 5 AP: Any overhead lighting in there? 6 MW: Where? 7 AP: Where - where that Park ground... 8 MW: [interrupting] No! No overhead lighting. 9 Not in that place. Not that I recall sir. 10 AP: Okay. Very dark. 11 MW: Yeah. 12 AP: Okay. So it took place around eleven 13 o'clock. 14 MW: Yeah. 15 AP: All right. - ahh - no, I don't - we'll 16 leave it at that for now. If you get an 17 opportunity to talk to John about it - If 18 there's something really different from - 19 that he - about how it took place, get 20 back to me, other than that, I don't want 21 to keep bugging you with this stuff. 22 MW: Okay. 23 AP: Okay? 24 MW: Okay Boss. 25 AP: All right.
1401 MW: Okay. We'll be here! 2 AP: Yeah. Okay. 3 MW: I - I don't know how much longer I'll be 4 here, 'cause I got to get ready - I got to 5 get ready for court. 6 AP: Yeah. 7 MW: But ahh - Andre Clelland is taking my 8 place up here. 9 AP: Andre? 10 MW: Clelland. C-L-E-L-L-A-N-D. 11 AP: C-L-E- L-L-A-N-D? 12 MW: Yeah. 13 AP: And he's a sergeant? 14 MW: No. He's a Detective-Constable. 15 AP: A Detective Constable. Okay. 16 MW: Okay? 17 AP: Yup! 18 MW: So be gentle. 19 AP: Okay. 20 MW: Okay? [laughs] 21 AP: Thanks. 22 MW: Bye. 23 24 End of Conversation 25
1411 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And then shortly after, what did you 5 do after this call? When did you leave the Detachment 6 and go off duty? Or not go off duty but go to get ready 7 to go to court? 8 A: My notes say I'm on my way to my 9 residence at 5:30 in the morning. 10 Q: And your notes -- and you're 11 referring to page 88 of Exhibit P-1086? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And at -- there's a note at the top: 14 " 04:33 updated at 10:92 with Cecil 15 George who has injuries to his head, 16 possibly from blunt instrument." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And that's the information you got 19 from Mark Dew? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And then: 22 "Leave instructions with Detective 23 Sergeant Richardson. Advise Inspector 24 Carson that I would be leaving to attend 25 residence and prepare for court 0:900
1421 hours - Sarnia." 2 And so you told Detective Sergeant 3 Richardson to tell John Carson you were leaving? 4 A: Yeah. It appears so, yes. 5 Q: Then before we break for lunch, 6 there's one (1) other thing that I wanted to deal with 7 for a moment. 8 If I could take you back to page 79 of the 9 scribe notes. And the entry at 22:44 and I spoke to you 10 briefly when you were here before about Exhibit P-123 11 which was the statement taken by Constable Poole -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- from Cecil -- from Gerald George. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And I asked you if you recalled 16 seeing the -- Exhibit P-123, the statement and -- on the 17 evening of September the 6th and you couldn't recall. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Were you present when Mark Dew 20 returned at approximately sixteen (16) minutes to 11:00, 21 22:44 hours on September the 6th? 22 A: Yes. I would have been present at 23 the command post. 24 Q: And do you recall Mark Dew saying any 25 -- reporting to Dale Linton about the incident with
1431 Gerald George? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: And you have no recollection today? 4 A: No. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That would be a good 6 time to break for lunch. Commissioner, just for the 7 benefit of My Friends, there's -- I would probably be 8 about a half an hour after or perhaps a little more, 9 forty-five (45) minutes, after the lunch break. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We'll 11 break for lunch now. Thank you very much. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 13 adjourned until 2:15 p.m. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 1:05 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:22 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Before lunch 23 we were just at the point of time where you had left and 24 then you attended in London and gave evidence at the 25 proceeding before Mr. Justice Daudlin?
1441 A: Sarnia. 2 Q: In Sarnia, excuse me, yes. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you attended -- how long were you 5 in Sarnia approximately? 6 A: How long? Six (6) hours 7 approximately. five (5) or six (6) hours, maybe longer. 8 Maybe a bit longer. 9 Q: And we have the transcript of your 10 evidence that appears -- it's Exhibit P-737, Inquiry 11 Document 3000504 and that appears at Tab 55 of the 12 documents in front of you, Inspector Wright. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I'd ask you to please turn to 15 page 17 of the transcript in the upper right hand corner. 16 And there's a reference at line 10 to -- this is dealing 17 with the picnic table -- removing the picnic tables on 18 the morning of September 6th. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And there's a reference at line 10 21 and it says: 22 "What we did, there were two (2) 23 individuals at that particular time. 24 There were also -- and I should let you 25 know that prior to this that we had
1451 some information that there were 2 weapons that had brought in onto the 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park." 4 And what was the evidence that you're 5 referring to when you responded with this answer before 6 Justice Daudlin? 7 A: Again, the only thing that I can 8 think of what this is, is in regards to the -- the 9 showing of the rifle in the trunk of the car down at 10 Matheson Drive. 11 Q: On the afternoon of September the 12 4th? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Then I would ask you to turn to page 15 21, line -- this is a response to a question about the 16 Provincial Park, and at line -- approximately 16, it 17 reads -- well starting at line 15: 18 "I should say and pardon me, but I just 19 want you to have all the information, I 20 believe it was Tuesday night, officers 21 there that were at those points -- 22 checkpoints heard what they believed to 23 be automatic weapons fired within the 24 Park. That was believed to be fifty 25 (50) to one hundred (100) rounds of
1461 automatic weapons fire going off inside 2 the Park." 3 That was Tuesday. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And there was no -- that's an error 6 would you not agree with me? 7 A: I would agree with you. 8 Q: That the only report of rifle fire 9 was, I believe, back in the Army Camp? 10 A: Right. I thought it was in the Park. 11 Q: At the t -- 12 A: But that's -- I agree with you that 13 that's incorrect. 14 Q: Okay. Excuse me for a minute, 15 Commissioner. I'll lose this computer if I'm not 16 careful. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Then at page 27 there's a reference 21 at line 20 to 25, 26 starting at line 20: 22 "By the time I got to the second 23 checkpoint which was no more than I 24 would say less than eight (8) minutes 25 from the time I left that curve I was
1471 notified by radio from the first 2 checkpoint that a civilian had stopped. 3 His vehicle had been -- he had been 4 threatened and his vehicle had been 5 damaged. Something had been thrown at 6 it and I don't know what but something 7 -- his vehicle had been damaged. 8 I don't know if it was -- it seems to 9 me I recall that his windshield had 10 been busted. I later found out that 11 that individual's a Band Council member 12 of Kettle Point -- Kettle Point and 13 Stony Point Reserve who registered a 14 complaint at the checkpoint and a 15 statement was taken -- a signed 16 statement was taken from that Band 17 Councillor identifying one (1) of the 18 approximately eight (8) individuals who 19 had done the damage to his vehicle." 20 Now, the reference to a windshield having 21 been busted, you would agree that was wrong? 22 A: I agree. That was wrong. 23 Q: And in fact by this time you -- you 24 had known actually in -- earlier in the evening that -- 25 of September 6th that it was damaged by a rock or rocks;
1481 is that not -- 2 A: Right, stones I thought. 3 Q: Stones, yeah. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And why do you think that you said 6 his windshield had been busted? 7 A: Well, I had been up, again, for in 8 excess of something like thirty (30) hours by this time 9 and I was clearly mistaken and I was confusing the damage 10 with that to the damage to the -- the cruisers that had 11 been done. It was a mistake on my part. 12 Q: And did you know on the evening of 13 September the 6th or the morning of September the 7th 14 about the letter to the Forest Standard that had been 15 written by Gerald George? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you become aware that he had 18 written a letter to the Forest Standard prior to the 19 incident? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And that letter was critical 22 of the occupiers? 23 A: I'm -- I'm aware of that now. I 24 heard that at the Inquiry but I wasn't -- 25 Q: But before that you didn't know?
1491 A: No. 2 Q: And if you would turn to page 32, 3 the... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: At the top of page 32 -- in the 8 middle of 30 -- page 32, at approximately line 17, you 9 again repeated the same error with respect to the TRU 10 team -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- and the man with gun. And then at 13 page 33 line 21 you say: 14 "Yes, and I heard the weapons fire as 15 the leader is saying, We're being fired 16 upon and then there was return fire at 17 that and it was real quiet for far too 18 long as far as I was concerned and then 19 we moved our officers back behind a 20 prisoner van and an ambulance and they 21 made a count of our officers because we 22 didn't know if any of the OPP officers 23 had been hit or wounded or gone 24 missing. We had no idea." 25 Now, when you -- the question I have is,
1501 the reference to, "it was real quiet for far too long as 2 far as I was concerned" and what were you referring to 3 there? 4 A: Well, I make that comment as well to 5 Superintendent Parkin, I think, on the telephone. 6 Q: You say it was quiet? 7 A: Quiet. I -- my recollection is 8 there's -- Lacroix is yelling commands and then you hear 9 this gunplay and then we don't hear anything on the 10 radio; that's my recollection of it. 11 And I grew quite concerned about you know 12 there was -- there appeared to be no communica -- you 13 hear gunshots and then there's no communication and I was 14 very concerned about you know what -- what that meant and 15 I felt that that -- that stoppage in any communication 16 was far too long for my liking. 17 Q: And the -- and that was simply the 18 stoppage in communication? 19 A: Yeah, it was just -- you know I was 20 trying to relay to His Honour my concern. 21 Q: And if I could take you to page 35 22 line 23. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1511 Q: There is a point -- question 20 -- 2 line 20: 3 "How many OPP officers are there in the 4 vicinity at this point? 5 A: Right now, in excess of a hundred 6 (100), well in excess of a hundred 7 (100)." 8 And that was after -- that number of 9 officers had -- additional officers had arrived during 10 the morning hours of September 7th after the incident in 11 the sandy parking lot and the -- the shooting of Dudley 12 George -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- is that not correct? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And we could -- there were -- how 17 many officers were there prior to the incident in the 18 sandy parking lot? 19 A: I couldn't give you an -- there were 20 -- I think there were sixty (60) ERT officers and then 21 there were, you know, Inspector Carson had called in a 22 number of uniform OPP officers from within the County to 23 do the road blocks and I had called in a number of 24 Detective Constables. 25 So I -- I wouldn't know how many there --
1521 plus there'd be Ident officers coming and there would 2 be -- 3 Q: This is prior to the incident. 4 A: Oh, prior to the incident? 5 Q: Yeah, prior to the incident. 6 A: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Well, my -- my guess would be 11 somewhere between sixty (60) and seventy-five (75). 12 Q: Okay. And the hundred (100) -- well 13 in excess of the hundred (100) number was for after the 14 incident with the additional officers coming into Forest? 15 A: Yeah. Carson asked for -- 16 Q: Fifty (50) -- 17 A: You know, an extra TRU team and fifty 18 (50) officers, so right there you have sixty-two (62). 19 Q: Because a TRU team is made up of 20 twelve (12)? 21 A: Yeah, that's my understanding. 22 Q: Then if I could ask you to turn to 23 the top of page 37 and this is the -- Exhibit P-737 is 24 Inquiry Document 3000504. 25
1531 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you say at line 10, the -- the -- 4 Justice Daudlin was asking you about what efforts were 5 made -- whether any effort was made by bullhorn or 6 otherwise to indicate to this crowd that if they removed 7 behind -- remained behind and inside the Park that there 8 was no intent on part of -- on the part of the officers 9 to go any further. And you answer: 10 "Yes, I think there was, just by the 11 fact when they moved in, they move in 12 with yelling, 'move back, move back' 13 and as soon as they moved we were not 14 right up against these individuals 15 there. There was a buffer there -- as 16 they -- as soon as they -- as they as 17 soon as they went over the fence they 18 stopped." 19 And the reference to "move back", some -- 20 the officers shouting, "move back, move back", where did 21 that come from, Inspector Wright? 22 A: Well, that's -- I wasn't, as you 23 recall, I was an ERT team officer prior to this and my 24 training was when -- when you were in this kind of a 25 formation that's -- that was the standard operating
1541 procedure that you'd yell, "move back, move back". 2 So I was -- in my mind, I was of the 3 opinion or I was of the -- I felt that that's what they 4 had done. They had yelled, "move back, move back" as 5 part of that movement towards -- in the parking lot 6 towards the fence. 7 Q: Now, that wasn't -- you would agree 8 with me, those words were not captured on Exhibit P-438, 9 the communications by -- between Wade Lacroix and the -- 10 and the TOC? 11 A: No, and you -- you wouldn't, because 12 he'd have to key his mic to do that. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Right. I mean, that -- 15 Q: And -- 16 A: That -- that's certainly an 17 assumption on my part when I said that. I was of the 18 mind that that's exactly what they would do because 19 that's what my training told me we would do. 20 Q: So that part of your -- when you were 21 trained as an ERT team leader, when you hit a crowd of 22 people you -- your training was to shout at them to move 23 back? 24 A: Right. When engaged in a CMU 25 formation.
1551 Q: And that's the source of your 2 statement here -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- that the officers shouted, "move 5 back"? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Then at Tab 56 there's a -- a copy of 8 the transcript between yourself and John Carson at 9 approximately 1:30 on the afternoon of September 7th. 10 And this transcript is Tab 82 in Exhibit 11 444B and by this time the Hearing before Justice Daudlin 12 was completed? 13 A: No. I think -- I think it's going on 14 and I think it's continuing as I'm talking to Inspector 15 Carson. 16 Q: You had finished giving your 17 evidence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I'm not going to play this tape, 20 Commissioner. We played it with Inspector -- with John 21 Carson when he was here. But the question I have, if you 22 turn to page 491, and there's a reference, "Wright," it's 23 the second reference on page 491 and -- 24 "Yeah, so I'm wondering -- they're up 25 there debating for fucking hours so far
1561 but I'm wondering if he's going to do 2 that. Do we want an injunction that 3 says, but don't act on it, are we just 4 better to say, look forget it." 5 And that's -- is that a reference to the 6 potential that the judge had indicated that he might 7 grant an injunction but not to act on it? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then a little farther down the 10 page you say: 11 "I gave him all fuck, I gave the 12 evidence of my life in there." 13 A: Right. 14 Q: What did you mean by that? 15 A: Well, again, I had nothing in my 16 notebook from the early afternoon of September the 6th 17 and I was required to go in there after this horrific 18 incident and give, without the benefit of any notes, what 19 I felt was a very detailed description of the history and 20 what had actually taken place that night. 21 And I was very satisfied with myself that 22 I had done -- I had done that. 23 Q: And with respect to the -- the 24 evidence that you had given -- 25 A: Yes.
1571 Q: -- recounting what had happened. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And John Carson tells you, at this 4 point in time, that the MNR parking lot had been lost 5 during this conversation. 6 Do you recall that? 7 A: Right, right. 8 Q: And you were concerned about that, 9 from your comments in this -- you were surprised at that? 10 A: I just couldn't believe that things 11 had deteriorated to that point where, you know, it was, 12 again, just -- I can't think of a better word than chaos. 13 We were, you know, we were losing 14 equipment and we had moved out and it was just the 15 farthest thing from what certainly I had ever envisioned 16 happening down there in regards to dealing with that land 17 claim issue. 18 It was -- it was the worst case scenario 19 that I -- I couldn't have thought of a worst case 20 scenario than what was happening. 21 Q: And then if I could take you to page 22 497. And by this time, if you look at the bottom part of 23 the page, the fourth right from the bottom. 24 A: The fourth? 25 Q: Yeah.
1581 A: Yes. 2 Q: The fifth, it says: 3 "Well but hang on a sec. Does he say 4 we can't act on it." 5 It looks like you're being told by 6 someone, during the course of this call, that an 7 injunction is being granted but you can't act on it; is 8 that correct? 9 A: Yeah, I think Mr. Kobayashi has come 10 down, because if you look at the rest of this, as I 11 recall this conversation, is I tell Inspector Carson that 12 I'm done but I'm not -- I'm going to wait for Les to be 13 done, because I don't want him to leave him there. 14 And then I have this information so I'm -- 15 I think that's where that's coming from, is Les has come 16 and told me that this is the result. 17 Q: We have temp -- 18 "WRIGHT: We have a temporary interim 19 injunction that we can't act on and 20 we're prepared to come back in X number 21 of days to get another one, but I don't 22 think we need it, do we, now?" 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And why did you say that? 25 A: Well, you have to take this -- this
1591 statement in context with the rest of the conversation 2 when John and I are talking and, you know, I begin this 3 with, you know, is this -- is this an exercise in 4 futility to be waiting for an injunction when what's gone 5 on and he says, Yeah, I agree, we have a crime scene, et 6 cetera, et cetera. 7 So this is in relation to what we've -- I 8 think we're both coming to agreements with is, you know, 9 when we were going to get the injunction a set of 10 circumstance -- the situation was certainly what it 11 wasn't -- what it -- the situation that we had before us 12 on the early morning -- evening of September 6th was 13 certainly different than what's taking place here, at the 14 time the injunction was being asked for. 15 So it was like, Well, we have a crime 16 scene. Just much of what the -- his Honour discussed 17 with respect to the -- the injunction within -- during 18 the time I was giving evidence as well is that, Well, you 19 know, you -- you have multiple crime scenes, you have 20 authority to do what you need to do. 21 Q: Okay. And his position being as you 22 had the authority to go in and... 23 A: Well it's, again, I mean, I -- you'd 24 have to read this exactly in what the -- His Honour said, 25 but my re --
1601 Q: But you're referring to the exchange 2 you had with the Judge and -- 3 A: Yeah, and -- 4 Q: -- during that -- 5 A: And then the conversation that Carson 6 and I were having in, Well, does -- doesn't it -- is an 7 injunction now something that's required? 8 And I'm just asking him as I'm sitting 9 there waiting for Les to be done and -- and we're talking 10 about that. 11 Q: Now, after you -- the injunction, 12 what did you do next? 13 A: I went home and I changed out of my 14 suit into some plain clothes, and I don't remember if I 15 jumped -- if I was in a uniform. I might have -- I can't 16 remember if I was in a uniform or in plain clothes. 17 I think I was in jeans and a t-shirt and I 18 attempted to make my way back to the Detachment, but I 19 was unsuccessful. 20 Q: And after -- when you say you were 21 unsuccessful, what do you mean by that? 22 A: Well, I got to -- as far as -- I got 23 off the 402 and I was on my way to Forest on 21 Highway, 24 and I became so exhausted I just -- I couldn't drive any 25 more and I pulled off onto the shoulder of the road. And
1611 I think it was some time later, an hour or in excess, 2 that one of the officers found me parked on the side of 3 the road, asleep. 4 I was just exhausted, I couldn't -- I 5 couldn't make it to the Detachment. 6 Q: And what did you do after that? 7 A: I went to the -- I went back to 8 Forest and I spoke to Inspector Carson. And then my 9 recollection is a couple of officers took me to a -- a 10 hotel and I was instructed to get some sleep, and so 11 that's what I did. And then sometime later I woke up and 12 started to do myQ : n o t eI sn . -- at the hotel? 13 A: Yeah, and I -- I couldn't tell you 14 when that was. It was -- I slept for a while. 15 Q: Now, one of the things that I'd asked 16 you earlier this afternoon about, or this morning, was 17 about the reference to Dudley -- Dudley's dead; do you 18 recall that? 19 A: Right, yes. 20 Q: And the -- I had asked you on 21 February 21st about your communications with the 22 military, I think, prior to July 29th, '95. 23 And I asked you about communications with 24 the military; do you recall that? 25 A: Sure.
1621 Q: And you said that if -- that does not 2 recall -- I asked you about the military and you said -- 3 and I'm referring to page 204, line 2 and following: 4 "No communications with Military as to 5 what was happening on Camp Ipperwash. 6 Does not recall receiving reports from 7 the Military about incidents at the 8 Army Camp. If a complaint were made it 9 would be in the Incident Log." 10 That was Exhibit -- 11 A: I remember that, yes. 12 Q: -- P-411. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did you see -- and I'm -- I don't 15 have a -- a copy handy with me, but I couldn't have -- 16 over lunch I couldn't find one, but there are examples in 17 the database of letters sent by the Forest Detachment or 18 Sergeant Bouwman to the Superintendent in London with 19 respect to incidents at the Army Camp after 1993. 20 Did you ever receive copies of those 21 letters, those types of letters? 22 A: I couldn't say. I could tell you 23 that that -- that log -- that log was being prepared 24 initially by a -- Detective Dowell was his name -- is his 25 name, and then later it went to a steno out of Forest.
1631 So that information would come to the unit 2 that I was working, in the Crime Unit, and Dowell would 3 put that in there and that -- that would physically take 4 place in my crime unit. 5 So I'm sure I would have seen them up to a 6 certain -- once we moved to, you know, September 4th, 7 5th, and 6th and it continued on there I didn't -- I lost 8 track of the logs, but prior to that I -- I suspect I 9 would have seen them. 10 Q: Excuse me for a minute. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Commissioner, I'd like to give the 15 Witness a copy of Exhibit P-411 which is the -- the 16 Military Incident Log that was started in May of 1994. 17 This is an unredacted copy of Exhibit P-411 -- no, I only 18 have one (1) copy. 19 And this is -- 20 A: Thank you. 21 Q: -- Inquiry Document 2002889. 22 And when this log was started, how often 23 did you see the log? 24 A: I couldn't tell you. If it -- if 25 something came to my attention or somebody brought the --
1641 it to my attention that I should have a look at it, then 2 I did. I tried to keep my, you know, tried to keep 3 abreast of what was going on there as well as all my 4 other duties, as well. 5 Q: And this -- if I -- I could ask you 6 to turn to page 7, it's the entry of October 24th, 1994? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: And there's a reference to Anthony 12 O'Brien George in that entry; do you see that? 13 It's at the top of the page. 14 A: Yes, I see it. 15 Q: And then do you have any recollection 16 of seeing this report with the name Anthony O'Brien 17 George on October 24th, 1994 -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- or shortly thereafter? Then 20 there's a reference on the next -- on page 9, the second 21 reference, it's June 9, 1995? 22 A: June 9, yes. 23 Q: And what I've tried to do is identify 24 any reference to Dudley George or Anthony O'Brien George 25 in Exhibit P-411.
1651 And there's a reference, "June 9, 1995, 2 20:15, Ipperwash CFB, Speck." So I take it the report 3 comes through Constable Speck, that's the way this was 4 created? 5 A: I would agree with you. 6 Q: Then it says: 7 "IMC 9379-6. Captain Howse reports CFB 8 vehicle hit on driver side window with 9 a bag of rotting fish and other garbage 10 while passing by Dudley's Place, by 11 Dudley George, no damage." 12 And were you aware that there was a place 13 on the Army Camp called, 'Dudley's Place?' 14 A: Back then? 15 Q: Back then. 16 A: Did I take any particu -- no, I 17 didn't take any particular -- I'm aware of it's existence 18 now, obviously, and after the fact. But I didn't take 19 any particular notice of it prior to September 6th. 20 Mr. George was -- I didn't -- he wasn't -- 21 it didn't to come to mind or stick out to me. I mean, 22 the first one is December -- 8th of December '94. The 23 next time he's mentioned is the 09 of June '95 which is, 24 you know, pretty close to six (6) months. 25 I mean the number of people that have come
1661 through my notebook, and occurrences, and my life as an 2 OPP officer in that particular time, or any time in that 3 period of time would be numerous, so. 4 And it really isn't an outstanding 5 occurrence as far as what's taking place here. 6 Q: And then the next -- if I -- turn to 7 page 13. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And there's an entry June 28th, 1995, 10 12:00 hours, CFB -- Ipperwash CFB, Speck. And it -- 11 there's an incident -- do you know what the number INC- 12 10578-0 refers to? 13 A: Yeah. That will be, I think, 14 incident number or the occurrence number. So you could 15 to that police report and it should be, I think, 10573-6. 16 I think that's what that means. 17 Q: And this refers to Detective -- 18 Constable Speck had attended at Stoney Point with -- to 19 meet with the newly formed council. He was informed that 20 Warren George's tires were flattened some time during the 21 night. 22 The vehicle was parked at Anthony Dudley 23 George's trailer between 01:00 and 02:00 this morning, 24 and the victim felt that the military were responsible. 25 A: Right.
1671 Q: And the -- were you aware of where 2 Dudley George's trailer was? 3 A: I couldn't say. I'm sure these -- 4 these incidents -- I would be made aware of these 5 incidents as they were occurring. But, I mean, in and by 6 themselves they're -- they're not particularly noteworthy 7 and I wouldn't have -- the name wouldn't have stood out 8 in my mind. 9 Q: There are -- in Exhibit P-411, unless 10 I'm mistaken, there are -- there are just three (3) 11 references to Anthony Dudley George, or Anthony O'Brien 12 George, or Dudley George, up to the beginning -- to July 13 31st, 1995. 14 Do you recall -- if you can turn to page 15 37. 16 A: Yes, I'm there. 17 Q: Do you see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And this exact exchange appears in 20 Exhibit P-413, Inquiry Document 2002890 and I'll give 21 you, just for the moment, a copy -- an unredacted copy of 22 P-413. 23 And this is an exchange -- a reported 24 exchange between some people on the beach, an elderly 25 couple on the beach, with someone who was identified as
1681 Dudley George. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And did you see this exchange, as 4 noted in the log, Exhibit P-411 or P-413, on or shortly 5 after July 31st, 1995? 6 A: Well, it's in my notes that I 7 actually attend that scene. 8 Q: That's right. And -- 9 A: So I'm aware at that time -- this 10 information is passed onto me because Carson and I attend 11 together, as a matter of fact. 12 This is the night of the fatal. 13 Q: This is the night of the fatal? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And -- and I can't recall, and I 16 apologize, were -- was Dudley George pointed out to you 17 that night? 18 A: No. I don't think so. I don't 19 recall that. 20 Q: And then in Exhibit P-411 there's a 21 reference, on page 44, to something we've already 22 discussed, and that was the meeting with yourself, 23 Constable Speck and Bouwman -- Sergeant Bouwman at the 24 CFB Ipperwash at the main gate on August the 1st -- 25 A: Right.
1691 Q: -- you recall we discussed this? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And there's a reference to the 4 confrontation caused by Dudley; you'll see that in the 5 middle. 6 A: Yes, but -- 7 Q: And that's referring to the same 8 incident on July 31st? 9 A: Yes, but, as you recall, I -- I -- as 10 I recall my evidence, I don't recall Bouwman's 11 conversation. I don't take issue with that -- any of 12 this, but I don't recall listening to Bouwman's 13 conversation with the people at the gate. 14 My recollection is I talked to them and 15 then I must have backed off and Bouwman talked to them 16 later, because I don't recall his conversation with them. 17 Q: And one of the reasons -- do you 18 recall -- you don't recall a conversation where the 19 confrontation that Dudley George had been involved in, as 20 reported to you the day before came up? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: Then if you could turn to August 3rd, 23 it's page 58 -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- of Exhibit P-411 at 12:34 hours.
1701 The source appears to be Dale Linton. 2 A: 12:34, yes. 3 Q: And it relates to the Global News, 4 and we talked about this briefly. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And Dudley's name is mentioned as 7 part of that entry. 8 A: Well, I think that's in my notebook, 9 actually, but I don't have his name in my notebook. I 10 just have the incident -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- so -- 13 Q: I know you have the incident. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Here his name appears. Did anyone, 16 do you recall, tell you his name? 17 A: No, I don't recall having his name. 18 Q: And then the only other time that the 19 -- that's the last time he -- Dudley George's name 20 appears in Exhibit P-411 -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And in P-413, it appears -- which is 23 Exhibit 2002890, again on pages 8, 9 and 10, with respect 24 to the July 31st incident. 25 And then August the 3rd at 1995 at page 14
1711 where it simply appears to be Constable Dew talking to 2 the man who was involved in the incident on July 31st. 3 Do you see that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Then on page 49, there's a reference 6 to -- at 14:35 -- 7 A: 14:35? 8 Q: August the 14th, 1995, 14:35, 9 Constables Blanchard and Ternovan; were they two (2) of - 10 - who were they? 11 A: They would, I sus -- I would think 12 that Blanchard and Ternovan would be part of the camp 13 ring brigade. 14 Q: And the entry is that: 15 "Provincial Constable Blanchard invited 16 on army camp by Dudley who explained to 17 her that the blue flag is the Iroquois 18 Confederacy flag, hut on beach area is 19 meeting area. 20 Have I read that correctly? She's simply 21 reporting that -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- a person by the name of Dudley 24 invited them on to the army camp and -- 25 A: Right.
1721 Q: -- was explaining some of the things 2 that were on the army camp. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Did you have any discussion with 5 either Constable Blanchard or Ternovan about that? 6 A: No, not that I recall. 7 Q: And then the next entry is page 85, 8 September the 2nd and there's an entry on September the 9 3rd and September -- entry September the 4th dealing with 10 someone who identified themselves as Dudley. 11 Were you aware of these entries on 12 September -- 13 A: Where -- what page are you on, sir? 14 Q: Page 86, sir, Exhibit P-413; page 86, 15 page 88, and page 89. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: There's a report at 12:05 by Dew and 20 Gast. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: About Dudley driving -- 23 A: I don't have any independent 24 recollection of reading these. 25 Q: Now, there are actually very few
1731 entries to Mr. Dudley George in all of these -- these two 2 (2) exhibits, but the question I have: When you were 3 told by -- on September the 6th, 1995 at approximately 4 three o'clock in the afternoon that -- when you were down 5 at the Camp, that when the car stopped and the person 6 said, either the driver or the passenger, I think you 7 said now it was the -- the passenger, but I think in your 8 notes it said the driver: 9 "We'll do our talking with guns." 10 Did you not turn to Margaret Eve and say, 11 Do you know who that is? 12 A: No, I didn't. I didn't. I had no 13 idea who that was and -- and absolutely no idea that it 14 was Mr. George -- 15 Q: And -- 16 A: -- until months later. 17 Q: And did -- Margaret Eve was standing 18 there and heard this as well? 19 A: Yeah. Yes, Sure she did, she had -- 20 Q: And she had been part of the 21 undercover operation? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And she didn't say who these people 24 were in the car? 25 A: No, because if I had known that, sir,
1741 that would certainly have been relevant, as far as I'm 2 concerned, by the time I gave evidence at the injunction 3 on the morning of September 7th, because by then I knew 4 the deceased person was Mr. -- Mr. Anthony George. 5 So, you know, that is something I would 6 have -- I -- I felt, very relevant. Had I known that 7 that was, in fact, the case, I would have given it to 8 him. 9 And when I gave my statement to Goodall I 10 iden -- I, again, never made the connection that the 11 person I spoke to, who said that, was the same person who 12 was killed by Sergeant Deane. I never made the 13 connection then. 14 Q: And after September the 7th what role 15 did you play, if any, in the fall of 1995 with respect to 16 Ipperwash? 17 A: I was there for awhile. It turned 18 into an even larger operation and I was there to provide 19 background information to the Incident Commander as they 20 dealt with the situation. 21 And I also assisted -- Detective Inspector 22 Goodall was conducting the criminal investigations, the 23 OPP side of the investigation, and as the Acting 24 Detective Staff Sergeant I provided him with ever -- 25 whatever resources he felt he needed with respect to
1751 individuals to conduct his investigation. So it was a 2 peripheral role. 3 Q: Okay. And before we close is -- is 4 there anything else you wish to add and do you have any 5 recommendations? 6 As you know one (1) of the -- part of the 7 mandate of the Commissioner is to make recommendations to 8 prevent violence in these types of circumstances again in 9 the future, and I was wondering if you had any 10 recommendations that you wished to share with the 11 Commissioner and if you have anything you wish to add? 12 A: Yes, I do. There have been a number 13 of individuals who have come before me and I've heard 14 their recommendations so I'm -- I'm, you know, I'm not 15 going to go over them. 16 But from my point of view, from the -- 17 from the part I played in this incident, it's clear to 18 me, all these years later, that the communication, or 19 lack thereof, was a critical aspect in this incident. 20 And that in this tragedy, because that's 21 exactly what this was, was a tragedy, and that -- it 22 seems to me that it would be helpful if we had available 23 a pool of individuals, with the appropriate standing, 24 that either side, either the police and/or First Nations 25 people in a land claim issue, because that's what we're
1761 talking about here, could feel comfortable to go to, to 2 merely pass the information, their -- their information, 3 that they see fit, that needs to get to the other side, 4 so that we don't have this sort of thing take place. 5 Because I -- I feel that if we were -- if 6 we had been able to communicate in any way, then I don't 7 think this would have happened. I'm sure it wouldn't 8 have happened. 9 So that's -- that's what I have to say 10 insofar as recommendations are -- are concerned. 11 Q: And is there anything else you wish 12 to add? 13 A: No that's all. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, that's 15 the completion of the Commission's examination. 16 Now, I need to -- I would ask if we could 17 reserve a number for the -- we're going to create a CD of 18 the telephone calls that we've played and I need to 19 reserve a number for that. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1123, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1123. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1123: Reserved. 24 25
1771 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, before we -- what 2 we need to do is canvas the parties with respect to their 3 examination. But as well, Mr. Sandler has advised me 4 that he wishes to ask some questions of the Witness in 5 the nature of examination-in-chief, questions that 6 Commission counsel didn't ask. 7 And he -- in order to be fair to everyone 8 and in accordance with, really, the procedure that we 9 followed with some of the First Nation witnesses. And I 10 think that's the only examples we've had now where, in 11 particular, Mr. Rosenthal wanted to leave some -- lead 12 some additional evidence, and Mr. Klippenstein wanted to 13 lead some additional evidence, and they then asked their 14 questions and then got the opportunity to re-examine 15 after everyone else had finished. 16 So that's -- Mr. Sandler has some 17 questions. I don't know perhaps Mr. Sandler could 18 indicate to us how -- what his estimate is and then we 19 could canvas the parties for cross-examination. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: After that, 21 right? After that. We'll let Mr. Sandler do his 22 questioning first and then canvas for -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then -- okay, 24 that's fine. Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do
1781 you expect you might be Mr. Sandler? 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: Let me just say, by 3 way of answering that question, this will almost 4 exclusively be the introduction of additional 5 transmissions, so radio communications and the like, and 6 unfortunately they take -- they take some time to put in. 7 So I could be the balance of the afternoon 8 even though there'll be fairly limited evidence from the 9 witness. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll be 11 listening to tapes. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: So -- so -- and 13 they're short transmissions but there's -- there's no 14 quick way of doing it, as you know. So -- so I think, in 15 fairness, I'd have to say that -- that I could be the -- 16 the balance of the afternoon, just mechanically to get 17 that done. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 19 pretty hard to ask people how long they're going to be in 20 cross until we've heard these additional tapes. So why 21 don't we do that and then we'll -- then we'll canvas the 22 parties regarding the length of time that they expect 23 they might be on cross-examination. 24 It's now ten after 3:00. Why don't we 25 just start with you, and then we'll take a break, and
1791 then we'll go as long as we need to. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's fine. Thank 3 you, Your Honour. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 8 Q: Just while Mr. Millar is going to 9 assist me with the playing of the transmissions, you'll 10 need three (3) documents, Inspector Wright, to respond to 11 my questions. 12 Mr. Millar provided, during his 13 examination-in-chief, a bundle of transcripts of 14 transmissions. The top one has already been marked as 15 Exhibit P-1106, dated September 6th, '95 at 18:20. 16 And, Commissioner, you should have that 17 bundle as well. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 where that is. 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: I believe Inspector 21 Wright has it at the top left of his desk. You should 22 have both bundles there. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. They're -- they're -- 24 they don't have exhibit numbers on them but -- 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's fine.
1801 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this one 2 the first one, September the 6th at 20:20? Is that what 3 we're looking at? 4 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's the second 5 bundle that you should have which is -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the first 7 bundle. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- the ones that we're 9 providing. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: September 11 6th at 19:39? 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: The first one -- 13 there's two (2) bundles, one (1) Mr. Millar has already 14 provided you and the first entry on there is track 18:20, 15 September 6th, 1995, and that's P-1106. You -- you've 16 already been provided that bundle earlier on. 17 If it would assist you, Commissioner, if 18 you wanted to take the afternoon break, we could -- we 19 could sort your materials for you and we'd be ready to 20 go. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe that's 22 a good idea. Maybe that's a good idea because I think 23 I've got them here, but I'm not sure they're -- 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: I know you do, but -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- they're
1811 in the order that they need to be, I don't know that, so. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: Sure. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 4 take a short break now and see if we can use that as our 5 afternoon break? 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 3:12 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 3:21 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 18 not sure -- 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: Now, Commissioner, you 20 should have two (2) piles of transcripts there. One of 21 the piles has been opened up already -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- to 21:25, which is 24 the first conversation that we're going to deal with. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have
1821 that. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 4 Q: Now, Detective Inspector Wright, 5 before I take you to these radio transmissions perhaps I 6 can indicate to you and to the Commissioner what we're 7 going to do and hopefully we'll -- we'll all get there in 8 one (1) piece, all right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You testified, in response to 11 questions from Mr. Millar, that while you were in the 12 command centre on September the 6th of 1995 you were 13 listening to all sorts of information coming in from 14 communications, from the checkpoint systems that were 15 down there, from the officers that were down there at the 16 scene as well. 17 Do you remember giving that evidence? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And Mr. Millar asked you, generally, 20 about the kinds of information that you were receiving, 21 and simply to give context to the point of the exercise 22 here, you testified on February the 23rd, at page 208, to 23 this effect, and you were being asked about a time frame 24 in particular once the decision was made to deploy the 25 CMU, which you thought was around 20:46, all right?
1831 Do you remember that evidence? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you said, page 208, line 6. 4 "While this was happening there was all 5 sorts of information coming in from the 6 comms., from the checkpoint systems 7 that were down there, from the officers 8 down there as well." 9 And do you recall what type of 10 information was coming in? 11 A: Well, I know there's times on 12 these in the radio logs, but certainly 13 before CMU moved down the road. I 14 recall, quite clearly, that there were 15 -- the concern was being -- was growing 16 with regards to what was taking place 17 there. There was -- the officers were 18 talking about seeing vehicles with the 19 trunks opening up and sticks or bats 20 coming out of the trunks and much more. 21 Many more vehicles moving down to the 22 area. The area being the Provincial 23 Park? 24 A: The area being, yeah, the 25 Provincial Park but towards the area of
1841 the fence. 2 And twelve (12), approximately twelve 3 (12) individuals I took to be First 4 Nations individuals, out onto the 5 parking lot, the sandy parking lot 6 area. 7 And in addition to that there were 8 comments by a number of the officers 9 there, they were growing quite 10 concerned. 11 They moved back one of the checkpoints 12 because of the concern. 13 The officers felt their safety was 14 being compromised and there were 15 comments, you know, I can recall 16 somebody saying something about they 17 were expecting firebrands to be coming 18 their way shortly and that another 19 officer talking about, it's coming over 20 the air that he thought, and the quote 21 was, I believe the quote is, things are 22 getting 'hanky,' is the word he used 23 with respect to this feeling of being 24 very uncomfortable because of what he 25 saw going on there."
1851 And then you're asked about what 2 checkpoint was being referred to as being moved. 3 "I believe it's the East Parkway Drive 4 and it's the one closest to that 5 intersection, because my recollection 6 is they moved back so that -- so that, 7 though, at least the first property 8 that was adjacent to the sandy parking 9 lot was beyond where the OPP officers 10 were." 11 And then skipping to page 212 you made 12 reference to the fact that at one (1) point: 13 "Korosec and I were pretty close 14 together in that trailer, especially 15 around this part of the evening. And 16 at one (1) point he's talking to them, 17 he's talking to them about, you know, 18 if you feel the need to move back, then 19 move back. And they come back, Well, 20 no, we're okay for right now; that's my 21 recollection as well. 22 And Stan and I were pretty close to 23 each other because about this time 24 things are moving where really we 25 become somewhat of a spectator within
1861 the Command Post. 2 At sometime later? 3 Well, right. I mean once the decision 4 is made that they're going to move CMU 5 and Lacroix gets there and Skinner and 6 Carson are going to move towards the 7 tactical centre down at the MNR parking 8 lot, my part is a spectator as to 9 what's going on. I think it's around, 10 as best I can tell, is when Inspector 11 Carson talks about, If that's the case, 12 let's use the blue shirts at points and 13 approach the corners with the four (4) 14 teams from both base, but I might be 15 wrong." 16 And just stopping there and that was the 17 20:46 entry in the scribe note. 18 Now that's all I have to read you but 19 that's to give context to what I'm going to ask you 20 about. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Because I'm going to take you to a 23 series of transmissions and that's all I'm doing at this 24 point. I'll have a more fulsome examination or none at 25 all later in the piece, but I'm going to play for you a
1871 series of transmissions. 2 And to just tell you up front, I'm going 3 to ask you, in essence, three (3) questions in relation 4 to each transmission, all right? 5 The first is whether the transcript that 6 is before you accurately reflects, as you can hear it, 7 the contents of the conversation. 8 Second of all, to what extent does the 9 transmission correspond to what you heard back then on 10 September the 6th of 1995. So how does it relate to the 11 testimony you've already given to the Commissioner. 12 And the third is to explain the contents 13 as you understand them of the transmissions as they're 14 taking place. Okay? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: All right. So if we can go to the 17 first transmission and this is one (1) that is at 21:25 18 and you'll find it in one (1) of your two (2) piles of 19 documents -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- September 6th, 1995, 21:25 hours. 22 And if Your Honour has that as well? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I do. 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: All right. And if I 25 could ask that be played, please?
1881 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 Radio Transmission: 4 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 5 Date: 06 September 1995 6 Start Time: 21:25 hours 7 Duration of Transmission: 52 seconds 8 Conversation Involves: Lima two Oscar 1 (Whelan) 9 10 Whelan: Lima two Oscar one 11 Lima 2: Go ahead, ah Oscar one 12 Whelan: We're I/A now, got about a dozen, a lot of 13 vehicle activity behind me, coming in from 14 ah the back of the park 15 Lima 2: Yeah except the last part you're ah 16 blasting me out ah 17 Whelan: Got about twelve around the ah fire, got a 18 lot of vehicle, vehicular traffic behind 19 and around down towards the beach 20 Lima 2: Ten four 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 25 Q: All right? Now, first of all, as
1891 best you can -- can hear it, does the transcript 2 correspond to what you hear on -- on that tape? 3 A: Yes, it does. 4 Q: All right. Perhaps the transcript 5 could be the next exhibit please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1124, Your Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1124. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1124: Transcript of Lima 2 and 10 Oscar 1 (Whelan) Chatham. 11 Logger 0146, track 12, 21:25 12 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 15 Q: And I'm going to play for you three 16 (3) or four (4) transmissions together and then ask you 17 to comment generally on them, but I'll just ask you at 18 this point: Is this the kind of information that -- that 19 you were hearing in the Command Centre that evening of 20 September the 6th? 21 A: Yes, that's my recollection, yes. 22 Q: Okay. If we could listen to the next 23 transmission which is 21:26, which will be the next page 24 within the same bundle? 25
1901 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 Radio Transmission: 4 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 5 Date: 06 September 1995 6 Start Time: 21:26 hours 7 Duration of Transmission: 43 seconds 8 Conversation Involves: Lima One Oscar 1 (Whelan) 9 10 Lima 1: Lima one to Oscar position, Whelan 11 Whelan: Go ahead Lima one 12 Lima 1: Oscar one can you confirm the location of 13 the fire, is it within the Provincial Park 14 or outside 15 Whelan: Fire is outside the park. I/A... there's 16 a lot of ah, a lot of traffic down there's 17 and a lot of people down there, there's at 18 least ah, probably another fifteen now. 19 Seems to be more coming in. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 24 Q: All right. Now again, and you've 25 also had the benefit of listening to these transmissions
1911 in -- in a better acoustic setting than -- than the 2 setting that the Commissioner's hearing them today. 3 Does the transcript correspond to -- to 4 what you've heard on this radio transmission? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Could that transcript 7 then be the next exhibit please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1125, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1125: Transcript of Lima 1 and 11 Oscar 1 (Whelan) Chatham 12 logger 0146, track 12, 21:26 13 hrs., Sept. 06, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 16 Q: Now, if I can take you, before I ask 17 you, generally, about -- about the transmission, first of 18 all, and does that correspond to the content of 19 information that -- that you were hearing back on 20 September the 6th? 21 A: Yes, it does. 22 Q: And if I can take you to the scribe 23 notes, the typed scribe notes that you have before you 24 and the entry 21:28 which you'll find at page 78 of the 25 scribe notes, we see an entry there:
1921 "Reports on radio to Dale Linton, a 2 fire outside Park at the bottom of the 3 hill. Approximately twelve (12) Natives 4 and more coming down. Lots of vehicles 5 moving, two (2) ambulances to TOC." 6 And I won't ask you about the two (2) 7 ambulances to TOC at this point. Now, with the benefit 8 of the scribe note together with the two (2) radio 9 transmissions which I've just played for you, can you 10 advise His Honour how the contents of this material 11 relates to your earlier evidence to Mr. Millar? 12 What's happening here? 13 A: Well, it -- what's happening here is 14 -- is an escalation of movement by the people within the 15 Park to a position outside of the Park, which is a 16 concern. 17 Q: All right. And we see references in 18 the radio transmissions that we've just played about a -- 19 about a dozen individuals, a fire that at least was 20 apprehended at that time as being outside the Park and 21 another fifteen (15) people who seem to be coming. 22 Is that right? 23 A: Right, right. 24 Q: And does that accord with your 25 recollection of the kind of information that was being
1931 communicated at that point in time? 2 A: Yes, it does. Absolutely. 3 Q: All right. Now, if we can move on 4 then to the next transmission. This is at 21:28 and 5 you'll find that as the next item in the same -- in the 6 same bundle, Your Honour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 8 it. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 Radio Transmission: 13 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 14 Date: 06 September 1995 15 Start Time: 21:28 hours 16 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 6 seconds 17 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Lima One (Sgt Rob 18 Graham) 19 Alpha Checkpoint 20 21 Alpha: Lima 2 this is alpha 22 Alpha: Lima 2 this is alpha 23 Lima 2: Go ahead ah, alpha 24 Alpha: we just ah, stopped a pick-up ah from 25 entering ah, three males from Stoney, ah
1941 baseball bats and clubs, golf club, just 2 for your information we have all their 3 names and info, they were turned back, but 4 they wanted to get through I/A 5 Lima 2: Ten four ah, you didn't relieve them of 6 their hardware 7 Alpha: Oh yes, that's a ten four they definitely 8 donated it to the cause 9 Lima 2: Ten four 10 Graham: Ah Lima one, what checkpoint was that 11 again 12 Alpha: Ah Lima one, this is alpha checkpoint, 13 alpha checkpoint 14 Graham: Ten four thank you 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 19 Q: All right. How does the transcript 20 compare to the transmission as you've heard it played? 21 A: It appears accurate to me. 22 Q: All right. If the transcript could 23 be the next exhibit, please? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1126, Your Honour. 25
1951 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1126: Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 2 1(Sgt. Rob Graham), and Alpha 3 Checkpoint; Chatham logger 4 0146, track 12, 21:28 hrs. 5 Sept. 06, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 8 Q: And if you would look with me at the 9 entry again at 21:28 at page 78 of the scribe note you'll 10 see a reference there to a checkpoint, checks of vehicle 11 with golf clubs, seized same. 12 Do you see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And is this the kind of information 15 that was being communicated to you in the command centre? 16 A: Yes, it was. 17 Q: And what did you understand was 18 happening in this regard? 19 A: That there were individuals 20 attempting to get down to that area and that the vehi -- 21 in a vehicle and that they had been stopped, and there 22 were what the officers took to be baseball bats and clubs 23 and -- and a golf club in the vehicle. So they 24 confiscated those. 25 Q: All right. Now if I could ask you to
1961 turn to the transmission for 21:32 hours which is the 2 next item in the same bundle. And I'll ask Mr. Millar to 3 play that item, please. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 Radio Transmission: 8 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 9 Date: 06 September 1995 10 Start Time: 21:32 hours 11 Duration of Transmission: 57 seconds 12 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Oscar one (Whelan) 13 14 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 15 Whelan: Lima two Oscar one 16 Lima 2: Go ahead Oscar one 17 Whelan: Yeah there's vehicles, it looks like 18 they've pulled the fence down cause it 19 looks like vehicles are driving right 20 through from the park. Their numbers are 21 growing considerably. They're backing up 22 vehicles it looks like they are removing 23 objects from a trunk. Can't say what it 24 is, it's either clubs or something along 25 that line
1971 Lima 2: Ten four Oscar one, are you ten four on 2 that Lima one 3 Lima 1: That's ten four Lima two ah, he just 4 walked out but I'll advise 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 9 Q: All right, how does the transcript 10 compare to the radio transmission as you heard it played? 11 A: It's accurate. 12 Q: All right, if that could be the next 13 exhibit, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1127, Your Honour. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1127: Transcript of Lima 2, Oscar 1 18 (Whelan) Chatham logger 0146, 19 track 12, 21:32 hrs., Sept. 20 06, 1995 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 23 Q: Now, in relation to this item at 24 21:32, we actually see a scribe note entry at 21:33, if I 25 can take you to that.
1981 A: Yes. 2 Q: It says: 3 "Reports on radio that it appears fence 4 has been taken down and vehicles 5 travelling freely between Park and 6 parking lot." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And -- and does that accord, as you 9 understood it, with the information that was being 10 communicated to the command centre through the radio 11 transmission that I've just played for you? 12 A: Yes, it does. 13 Q: And we actually see in this radio 14 transmission a note from an individual identified as -- 15 as Whelan, and did you know who Officer Whelan was or 16 what role he was performing on the night in question? 17 A: Yes to both of those questions. I 18 knew Officer Whelan very well and he was a -- he was down 19 there observing -- he was a part of a obs -- two (2) man 20 observation team watching what was going on in and around 21 the parking lot area. 22 Q: All right. And Officer Whelan says 23 at one (1) point in the radio transmission: 24 "Yeah, there's vehicles. It looks like 25 they've pulled the fence down, because
1991 it looks like vehicles are driving 2 right through from the Park. Their 3 numbers are growing considerably. 4 They're backing up vehicles. It looks 5 like they're removing objects from a 6 trunk. Can't say what it is, it's 7 either clubs or something along that 8 line." 9 And again, I'm going to suggest that that 10 corresponds to the kind of information you described to 11 Mr. Millar as coming into the command centre during this 12 period of time; am I right? 13 A: Yes, you're right. 14 Q: And was it of concern? 15 A: Yes, it was of great concern. 16 Q: Now, if I can go to the next item. 17 Excuse me for a moment. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And this is at 21:39, which would be 22 the next item in that same bundle. And I would ask that 23 it be played, please. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
2001 Radio Transmission: 2 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 3 Date: 06 September 1995 4 Start Time: 21:39 hours 5 Duration of Transmission: 2 minutes and 1 second 6 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Lima One (Sgt. Rob 7 Graham) 8 Checkpoint Delta 9 10 Delta: Lima two from checkpoint delta 11 TRU: Checkpoint delta you calling TRU 12 Delta: Lima two from checkpoint delta 13 Lima 2: Delta Lima two go ahead 14 Delta: A lot of traffic down here, we got a lot 15 of traffic, ah we're probably going to 16 start getting some rocks coming in any 17 minute. 18 Lima 2: Ten four Lima one you read that 19 Graham: Lima one to delta 20 Lima 2: Lima one ah from Lima two 21 Graham: Go ahead Lima two 22 Lima 2: Did ah you read ah delta they advise 23 there's lots happening there, they're 24 expecting rocks to fly momentarily 25 Graham: Yeah ten four, I'm trying to find out from
2011 delta whether ah it appears that the women 2 and children have left the camp or not 3 Delta: Lima one delta, women and children have 4 left earlier on, they've gone through 5 checkpoint earlier 6 Graham: That's ten four ah checkpoint delta. How 7 many vehicles have you got down there 8 Delta: Two, there's the big ah dump truck, 9 there's the bat mobile, they've just 10 started a large bonfire. I told the people 11 here if we start getting ah fire bombed 12 we're out of here 13 Graham: Yeah ten four they ah, they're, they're 14 inside the camp though 15 Delta: That's ten four they're just inside on the 16 road 17 Graham: Ten four 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 22 Q: And does that transcript correspond 23 to the transmission as you heard it? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: If that could be the next exhibit
2021 please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1128, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1128: Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1 5 (Sgt Rob Graham) and 6 Checkpoint Delta, Chatham 7 logger 0146, track 12, 21:39 8 hrs. Sept 06, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 11 Q: And is this the kind of information 12 that the content of which was being communicated to you 13 in the Command Centre that evening? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I'm going to deal with five (5) 16 of the transmissions together and then I'm going to ask 17 you what's happening during this period of time as you 18 understood it being communicated through these 19 transmissions, all right? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: So hold your thought as to the 22 content of these for a few moments. 23 If I could then turn to 21:41 which would 24 be the next transcript in the same bundle, Your Honour, 25 and ask that that entry be played?
2031 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 Radio Transmission: 4 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 5 Date: 06 September 1995 6 Start Time: 21:41 hours 7 Duration of Transmission: 39 seconds 8 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Lima One (Graham) Oscar 9 1 (Whelan) 10 11 Graham: Ten four 12 Whelan: Lima two Oscar one 13 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 14 Graham: Go ahead Oscar one 15 Whelan: Yeah we got a lot of traffic down here, 16 got ATVs on the beach that are coming up 17 ...I/A... position, we've moved back a 18 little bit. Ah vehicular traffic on the 19 road ...I/A... stop, I don't know. People 20 ...I/A...in the general area also. We've 21 got people all over the place here we've 22 moved back a little bit, it's getting 23 henky 24 Graham: Ah ten four 25
2041 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 4 Q: All right. And, again, recognizing 5 that certain portions of that radio transmission are -- 6 are inaudible to -- to the ear, does the balance 7 correspond to -- to the transcript that you see here? 8 A: Yes, it does. 9 Q: All right. And if that could be the 10 next exhibit, please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1129, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1129: Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 14 1(Graham) and Oscar 1 15 (Whelan), Chatham logger 16 0146, track 12, 21:41 hrs, 17 Sept 06, 1005. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 20 Q: Now, Officer Whelan reflects there: 21 Yeah, we got a lot of traffic down 22 here; got ATV's on the beach that are 23 coming up (inaudible) position. We've 24 moved back a little bit. Vehicular 25 traffic on the road (inaudible). Stop.
2051 I don't know. People (inaudible) in 2 the general area also. We've got 3 people all over the place here. We've 4 moved back a little bit; it's getting 5 henky." 6 Now, again you referred -- and again we'll 7 talk about the content a little bit more globally but you 8 had a specific recollection of an officer using the term 9 "henky" to describe the situation as he saw it; is that 10 right? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And -- and would that be -- would 13 this be one (1) of -- of those references? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And if we could then turn to 21:42, 16 which is the next item in the same bundle and ask that 17 that be played please? 18 A: Do you mean 19:42? 19 Q: 21:42. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 Radio Transmission: 24 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 25 Date: 06 September 1995
2061 Start Time: 21:42 hours 2 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 1second 3 Conversation Involves: Lima One (Korosec) Oscar 1 4 (Whelan) 5 6 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 7 Lima 1: Go ahead Lima one 8 Whelan: Can you confirm that the people ah 9 ...I/A... in our area. If we've got 10 people close by I'd like to know 11 Lima 1: Got the dayshift down, coming down right 12 now, ah, in crowd management ah formation, 13 they're driving down right now 14 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 15 Lima 1: Oscar one go ahead 16 Whelan: Can you confirm the delta people are in 17 the area, we got people in our area all 18 around here it's getting henky and I just 19 want to confirm that ah delta's around 20 here 21 Lima 1: Oscar one from Lima one, if you got to get 22 out of there get out of there ten four 23 Oscar 1: Ten four 24 Lima 1: And advise when you have 25
2071 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 5 Q: And, again, does the transcript, as 6 best it can be heard, -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- correspond to the transmission? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. If that could be the next 11 exhibit please? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1130, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1130: Transcript of Lima 1(Korosec) 15 and Oscar 1(Whelan) Chatham 16 logger 0146, track 12, 21:42 17 hrs, Sept 06, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 20 Q: And you see a reference there where 21 Whelan is asking for confirmation that: 22 "People in our area, if we've got 23 people close by I'd like to know." 24 And LIMA 1 advises: 25 "Got the day shift down, coming down
2081 right now in crowd management 2 formation. They're driving down right 3 now." 4 And Whelan says: 5 "Can you confirm the Delta people are 6 in the area? We've got people in our 7 area all around here. It's getting 8 henky, and I just want to confirm that 9 Delta's around here." 10 And -- and Whelan is told: 11 "If you've got to get out of there, get 12 out of there, 10-4." 13 And does that conform to the content of 14 the kind of information that was being communicated 15 during this period of time? 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: Excuse me, 21 Commissioner. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER:
2091 Q: And then if I can ask you to turn to 2 the second bundle that you've been provided of -- of 3 transcripts, and look to the item which is at 22:06. 4 It'll be the second last transcript in the -- in that 5 bundle. 6 And I should say, Commissioner, all of 7 these were provided to -- to all parties through an e- 8 mail transmission. 9 10 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 Radio Transmission: 13 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 14 Date: 06 September 1995 15 Start Time: 22:06 hours 16 Duration of Transmission: 15 seconds 17 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Oscar 1 18 19 Lima 2: Oscar one from Lima two 20 Oscar 1: Lima two Oscar one 21 Lima 2: Are you still in position ah Oscar one 22 Oscar 1: Oscar one we.re still in our position I/A 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 25
2101 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 2 Q: All right. And does the transcript 3 correspond to what you hear on the transmission? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: If that could be the next exhibit, 6 please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1131, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1131: Transcript of Lima 2 and 10 Oscar 1, Chatham logger 0146, 11 track 12, 22:06 hrs. Sept. 12 06, 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 15 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to the 16 very next transmission, 22:07. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 19 20 Radio Transmission: 21 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 22 Date: 06 September 1995 23 Start Time: 22:07 hours 24 Duration of Transmission: 15 seconds 25 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Oscar 1
2111 Lima 2: Oscar Oscar one ah Lima two 2 Oscar 1: Go ahead Oscar 3 Lima 2: Oscar one ah Lima two do you want to fall 4 back ah to the TOC fall back 5 Oscar 1: Ten four 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 10 Q: And again, does that transcript 11 correspond to what you hear on the transmission? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. If that could be the next 14 exhibit, please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1132, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1132: Transcript of Lima 2 and 18 Oscar 1. Chatham logger 0146, 19 track 12, 22:07 hrs, Sept 06, 20 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 23 Q: Yes, and when you actually look at 24 the -- the third entry here: 25 "Oscar 1, Lima 2, do you want to fall
2121 back to the OC." 2 I believe that's a TOC? 3 A: Yes, TOC, yes. 4 Q: "Back to the TOC." All right so 5 perhaps just a T could be placed there. Typographical 6 error on the transcript. Thank you. 7 Now I've played you five (5) radio 8 transmissions that extend from 21:39 to 22:07. And if I 9 can just take you to two (2) scribe note entries so that 10 the Commissioner has the -- the documentary package that 11 we're going to be referring to. And one (1) of those 12 entries is at 21:43 at page 78 of the scribe note. 13 And if you have that -- 14 A: I do. 15 Q: -- it says: 16 "ROB GRAHAM: Natives are all over the 17 place and our observation points are 18 forced back. Also the dump truck and 19 fire at checkpoint 'D'. 20 DALE LINTON: Let's keep to the plan 21 and activate -- Kimball Hall." 22 And I won't ask you about the last entry 23 of Dale Linton which -- which isn't a reflection of the 24 radio transmission. 25 And then if you'd look at 22:02 which is
2131 on the following page, page 79 of the scribe notes, we 2 see: 3 "'O' Team told to get out by Stan 4 Korosec as Natives are all around. 'O' 5 Team is still okay. Staying put." 6 Now could you take a moment and, first of 7 all with the benefit of the transmissions that we've just 8 played, communicate to the Commissioner what you 9 understood was transpiring during this period of time and 10 -- and how it impacted upon you. 11 A: Okay. Well, generally speaking it -- 12 this information was coming in and it indicated to me an 13 escalating amount of activity in and around the Park and 14 outside of the boundary of the Park and onto the sandy 15 parking lot and onto the road. 16 And including information in regards to 17 some of the people potentially having weapons. And -- 18 and this all went to my concern about general public 19 safety in that particular area as it related to the 20 people who owned homes immediately in that vicinity and 21 the people who I'd spoken to earlier that evening and -- 22 and being personally aware of their considerable 23 frustration at what had taken place there that that 24 caused me great concern. 25 I -- and in addition to that, is that I'm
2141 -- I knew, I still know, Constable Whelan very well and 2 he worked with me when I was on the ERT team. And he's a 3 very calm, cool, collected individual. 4 And he's sending back information, he's 5 clearly concerned about the -- th state of affairs as it 6 -- as it relates to his personal safety as well, because 7 he wants to know what DELTA is in or anywhere around him. 8 And so -- 9 Q: And DELTA, just stopping there, DELTA 10 would be the officers originally at the checkpoint at the 11 corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road; is that right? 12 A: I think so, yes. So you have an OPP 13 officer, well, there'd be two (2) of them down there. 14 But my general feeling was, you have OPP officers, well 15 trained, ERT officers, not just uniform officers, but ERT 16 officers, clearly concerned about their personal safety. 17 And you know, I processed that with 18 everything else and that equated, to me, to a -- a 19 particular concern about the -- the general public safety 20 in -- in that area for everyone involved; and that it 21 needed to be dealt with. 22 Q: And we hear references to the 23 movement of vehicles and that corresponds to what you 24 told Mr. Millar in examination in-chief? 25 A: That's right. There's vehicles
2151 there's clubs and bats come -- potentially coming out of 2 vehicles. There's all sorts of people moving in -- in 3 and out and onto the, it would appear from Whelan's 4 reports, in and out onto the sandy parking lot and more 5 vehicles streaming down towards to the Park from the 6 base, that I took it. 7 So it's -- it's a general escalating 8 situation down there in respect to what's going down 9 right in and around the sandy parking lot area. 10 And that -- that's also obviously combined 11 with what I had encountered earlier on at whatever that 12 was, shortly after seven o'clock after I'd met the camp - 13 - the cottagers, with the individuals on -- that I -- I 14 found, myself, on the parking lot. 15 Q: Okay. Now, I want to switch topics 16 if I may and -- and move to another area 17 And that is that we've heard evidence from 18 you earlier on in response to questions from Mr. Millar 19 that -- that you had a telephone conversation with John 20 Carson which is reflected in Exhibit 444B at a corrected 21 time, and that's our lingo for -- for a more accurate 22 reflection of when it took place at about 20:05:39. 23 And you testified that while you were on 24 the phone, you were close to the radio equipment and you 25 were in a position to hear the transmissions that were
2161 coming through. 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And we actually hear in that 4 conversation, you refer to a school bus and dump truck 5 which looked to be moving towards the runway and you 6 instruct an officer that you want to know the instant 7 they move out. 8 A: That's right. Zacher. 9 Q: You remember that? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And what I'd like to do is play for 12 you two (2) radio transmissions and ask you whether or to 13 what extent they relate to that evidence that you've 14 given to Mr. Millar, okay? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And the first of those radio 17 transmissions is on -- in the original pile of documents 18 that you were provided, Commissioner, and it's at 20:04. 19 So if we can locate that item, it's about 20 midway through that group in the documents. 21 And do you have that -- 22 A: I do. 23 Q: -- transcript? Commissioner, you 24 have that? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have
2171 it. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. And I'll 3 ask Mr. Millar, when he obtains that one, to play that. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 Radio Transmission: 8 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 9 Date: 06 September 1995 10 Start Time: 20:04 hours 11 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 57 seconds 12 Conversation Involves: '2841' Lima One Lima Two 13 14 2841: Lima two or Lima one two eight four one 15 Lima 1: Two eight four one Lima one 16 2841: Lima one were you aware there's a school 17 bus in this ah complex down at the store 18 Lima 1: That's affirmative two eight four one 19 2841: Ten four. A group of people milling 20 around it looks like they may be planning 21 something just for your information. Dump 22 trucks moving and they ah look like 23 they're moving out, towards the road 24 Lima 1: That's affirmative twenty eight forty one, 25 we're taking that under advisement now
2181 2841: Ten four 2 Lima 1: Two eight four one Lima one you copy we're 3 taking that under advisement now 4 2841: Two eight four one ah Lima one that's copy 5 thank you 6 Lima 1: Ten four 7 Lima 1: Lima two Lima one 8 Lima 2: Go ahead Lima one, Lima two 9 Lima 1: yeah did you copy two eight four one for 10 your info 11 Lima 2: A school bus on the road 12 Lima 1: The school bus and the dump truck are 13 moving towards the roadway. Just for your 14 info now 15 Lima 1: Two eight four one Lima one 16 2841: Lima one ah go ahead 17 Lima 1: Yeah can you keep that school bus and dump 18 truck under observation 19 2841: That's ten four ah, we're less that a 20 quarter mile off and we've got a pretty 21 good view of it. They've stopped now 22 they're just beside the building ah, we'll 23 advise. 24 Lima 1: If they move one inch onto the roadway we 25 have to be advised immediately
2191 2841: Ten four 2 Lima 1: Two eight four one ten four, Lima one out 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 7 Q: All right. First of all does the 8 transcript correspond to what you heard on the recording? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: If that could be the next exhibit 11 please? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1133, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1133: Transcript of "2841", Lima 1 15 and Lima 2, Chatham logger 16 0146, track 12, 20:04 hrs, 17 Sept. 06, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 20 Q: And could you advise the Commissioner 21 how the contents of this communication between LIMA 1 and 22 2841 relate to the telephone conversation that you're 23 having with your Incident Commander John Carson? 24 A: Sure. This is -- I'm in the midst of 25 explaining to him what's going on and relative to the --
2201 the people that I met at the -- the TOC and the 2 individuals, the occupiers that I met on the sandy 3 parking lot area. 4 And in the middle of that conversation I'm 5 advised of the -- the dump truck and school bus moving 6 around. And -- and I make that call that I want to know 7 the minute it comes off of -- onto the roadway. And this 8 is the exchange between LIMA 1 and the car relaying that 9 -- that direction that I've given to LIMA 1 in the 10 Command Post that I want that done. 11 Q: So we can overhear on your 12 conversation with John Carson, your direction that if 13 they move onto the roadway you have to be advised and 14 LIMA 1 is -- is advising 2841 to that very effect. 15 A: I think he quotes me exactly. I 16 think as I recall I'm -- I say I want to know if they 17 move one (1) inch onto that roadway and that's exactly 18 what he tells the officer. 19 Q: Okay. And if we could then go to the 20 next radio transmission within the same bundle 20:11. 21 And I'd ask that this one be played. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 24 25
2211 Radio Transmission: 2 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 3 Date: 06 September 1995 4 Start Time: 20:11 hours 5 Duration of Transmission: 33 seconds 6 Conversation Involves: Lima Two Checkpoint Charlie 7 8 Charlie: Lima two Charlie 9 Lima 2: Go ahead Lima two, or go ahead Charlie 10 Lima two 11 Charlie: Yeah just FYI the ah dump truck is heading 12 ah towards the main army camp ah on the 13 road, on their side 14 Lima 2: Ten four Lima one Lima two are you aware 15 Lima 1: Ah Lima two Lima one it's headed where 16 Lima 2: It's headed towards the main camp on their 17 side of the road 18 Lima 1: that's ten four Lima two 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 23 Q: And, again, does the transcript 24 correspond to the transmission, as you hear it? 25 A: Yes.
2221 Q: If that could be the next 2 exhibit please? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1134, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1134: Transcript of Lima 2 and 6 Checkpoint Charlie, Chatham 7 logger 0146, track 12, 20:11 8 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 11 Q: And does this correspond to the type 12 of information that was being communicated into the 13 Command Centre while you were present? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- and what is this content 16 telling us? 17 A: This is just telling us that the 18 vehicles are continuing to move around; specifically the 19 dump truck is now heading up towards the Army Camp on 20 the road on their side of the fence, as it were. 21 Q: And was this of concern to you? 22 A: Just that it continued to move 23 around. I mean, less -- less so than the other 24 information, moving up to the Army Camp is certainly 25 better than moving in and around the sandy parking lot
2231 area. 2 I really didn't care or was concerned 3 about too much movement as long as we kept them in the 4 Park, it was fine with me. 5 Q: And hence your instruction that as 6 soon as they hit the roadway, you're to be advised. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: I'm going to switch to a -- another 9 topic and we heard your evidence in examination in-chief 10 about a telephone conversation you had with Tim McCabe 11 which commenced at a corrected time of 20:25:55. 12 And while on the telephone with Tim 13 McCabe, you indicate to him: 14 "To be honest with you, I'm listening 15 to you with one (1) ear and doing 16 something else with the other." 17 And I'd like to play you another radio 18 transmission and ask you whether the contents of it would 19 have been known to you during your conversation, either 20 at or shortly after your conversation with Mr. McCabe. 21 And that's the radio transmission at 22 20:28, which is within the same bundle that we've just 23 been looking at. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
2241 Telephone Conversation: 2 Command Post - Track 3 3 Date: 06 September 1995 4 Start Time: 20:08 hours 5 Approximate Corrected Time: 20:15 hours 6 Duration of Conversation: 45 seconds 7 8 Conversation Involves: Dale Linton paging John Carson. 9 Mark Wright heard in the background 10 11 I/A conversation...blinds closed and...I/A 12 13 Archibald: Keeps ducking down and looking out 14 Linton: What's the prefix on John's number four 15 one six 16 Wright: Five one nine I believe, no, is it four 17 one six, five one nine 18 Wright: Yeah have they identified people. Hey 19 Arch all I want to know if they identify 20 the stones coming from the individuals at 21 the curve there, I don't give a shit if 22 they can identify particular people 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 25
2251 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 2 Q: All right. And again, does the 3 transcript correspond to what you hear on the 4 transmission? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And if that could be the next 7 exhibit, please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1135, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1135: Transcript of Lima 2 and 11 Charlie, Chatham logger 0146, 12 track 12, 20:28 hrs. Sept. 13 06, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 16 Q: And simply put, this is more 17 information received from the checkpoint as to the 18 movement and number of vehicles that are being observed; 19 am I right? 20 A: Right. Moving down towards the Park. 21 Q: Okay. Now there's been significant 22 evidence at this Inquiry about the departure of women and 23 children from -- from within the area that was occupied. 24 And if I can take you to two (2) telephone calls during 25 the same period that reflects upon that point.
2261 And these are to be found in the second 2 bundle that was provided to you. The first one is at 3 20:20. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And do you have that? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 Telephone Call: 13 14 Command Post Track 1 15 Date: 06 September 1995 16 Start Time: 20:20 hours 17 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 32 seconds 18 Conversation Involves: Sgt Cousineau, D/C Mark Dew 19 20 Cousineau: Command post Cousineau 21 Dew: Command post how are you doing 22 Cousineau: Not bad 23 Dew: Mark Dew 24 Cousineau: Yes Mark 25 Dew: Down at ah the beach to take a statement
2271 off somebody the boys at the checkpoint up 2 at the main gate 3 Cousineau: Uh huh 4 Dew: Say that the women have come out and told 5 them they.re removing all of the children 6 from the park tonight because something.s 7 supposed to happen in there 8 Cousineau: Okay uh 9 Dew: And we didn.t think that was appropriate 10 for the airwaves so I don.t know how it is 11 you handle it from there but 12 Cousineau: Okay do you want to talk to the Inspector 13 I.ll let you tell that right to the 14 Inspector 15 Dew: Okay 16 Cousineau: Okay hold on 17 Cousineau: Inspector Mark Dew.s got some information 18 they.re moving the women and children out 19 because something.s going to happen 20 Background: Checkpoint B to checkpoint A 21 Linton: They.re moving the women and children out 22 Cousineau: Yeah that.s what he just told me 23 Linton: Okay what I want I want a message to ah to 24 the TRU team to stay suited at Pinery. 25 Can you get the TRU team
2281 Linton: Yes Mark 2 Dew: Inspector I had no idea they would put you 3 on the phone for this but anyway the story 4 from the main gate is the women have come 5 across and told police that they intend to 6 remove all the children from the from the 7 Army Base tonight because something.s 8 happening and they thought maybe that was 9 worthy of note and they didn.t want that 10 broadcast across the airwaves they. I 11 don.t know how their ah how their system 12 works for passing on information but ah 13 Linton: The women are saying they.re moving all 14 the children out tonight something.s gonna 15 happening 16 Dew: They.ve got all the children it looks like 17 piled up at the main gate waiting for a 18 ride out of there 19 Linton: Who did they pass that on to 20 Dew: The ERT team guys right at the main gate 21 Linton: Okay 22 Dew: Okay 23 Linton: Yep 24 Dew: Right 25
2291 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 4 Q: All right. And, again, does that 5 conform to the -- the transcript conform to the 6 transmission as you hear it? 7 A: Yes, it does. 8 Q: If that could be the next exhibit 9 please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1136, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1136: Transcript of Sgt Cousineau 13 and D/C Mark Dew, Command 14 Post, Track 1, 20:20 hrs. 15 Sept. 06, 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 18 Q: And in the same bundle if we could 19 look at 20:32 -- I'm sorry, 20:34. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 Telephone Call: 24 Command Post Track 1 25 Date: 06 September 1995
2301 Start Time: 20:34 hours 2 Duration of Transmission: 2 minutes and 48 seconds 3 Conversation Involves: Peterman, D/C Mark Dew, Sgt Rob 4 Graham 5 6 Peterman: Command post Peterman 7 Dew: Hi how are you going it.s Mark Dew calling 8 again 9 Peterman: Yeah 10 Dew: I have some more information for the folks 11 there 12 Peterman: Okay uh who did you want to talk to 13 Dew: Well ah if if the ERT radio guy is 14 standing by there -- is there an ERT 15 Sergeant there 16 Peterman: Ah Yep can you hold on a minute 17 Dew: Yep 18 Peterman: Rob they want 19 Graham: Yeah Graham here 20 Dew: Hi Rob I can hardly hear you buddy 21 Graham: Yeah 22 Dew: Okay listen I just talked to ah a fella 23 down here who.s been in and eyeballed some 24 of the weaponry that they have do you have 25 an update on any of this stuff
2311 Graham: I.m not sure 2 Dew: Okay they have 3 Graham: Who.s this 4 Dew: It.s Mark Dew 5 Graham: Okay 6 Dew: He has seen four SKS 7 Graham: SKS 8 Dew: yeah those are Russian semi-automatics 9 Graham: Yeah 10 Dew: They have thirty round detachable clips 11 and a couple of them have fixed ten round 12 clips 13 Graham: Yeah 14 Dew: They.ve got two Ruger mini fourteens with 15 thirty round mags 16 Graham: Two Ruger fourteens 17 Dew: Yeah he says ah 18 Graham: with how big of clips 19 Dew: Thirty. Three zero 20 Graham: Yeah 21 Dew: Hunting rifles with scopes of course 22 Graham: Yeah 23 Dew: He thinks they.re up to making gas bombs. 24 You heard the story about they moving the 25 children out the front is supposed to
2321 happen tonight eh 2 Graham: Okay and ah gas bombs and they have been 3 moving the children out 4 Dew: Yeah the women the women from the Army 5 Base came across and told the ERT team 6 right there at the gate that they are 7 moving the children out tonight because 8 something.s supposed to happen in there 9 tonight 10 Graham: In the ah in the Army Base 11 Dew: Yeah 12 Graham: Maybe that.s why the unfriendlies are 13 showing up from Kettle Point 14 Dew: Absolutely positively now this guy that I 15 just spoke to says in his estimation what 16 they are going to do is they.re going to 17 start burning buildings in the army base 18 Graham: Who are 19 Dew: The people that are occupying it 20 Graham: The people that 21 DEW: I/A 22 Graham: yeah that makes a lot of sense 23 Dew: That.s what they.re going to do Apparently 24 if anymore of the Kettle Point Band 25 Council shows up there they.re going to
2331 start burning buildings. I don.t know if 2 that.s a if that.s a rouse to draw your 3 attention away from that back corner down 4 there mumbly says there.s still a guy 5 inside the kiosk with the door shut and 6 the widows the curtains drawn eh 7 Graham: uh huh 8 Dew: You can.t see what he.s doing but every 9 once in a while he comes and flips out I.d 10 be worried about him being a sniper kind 11 of a guy 12 Graham: uh huh 13 Dew: And that.s everything I know for now Rob 14 Graham: Okay and that.s at eight forty three okay 15 thank you buddy 16 Dew: Now where do I go with this from for the 17 guys out here do you handle that from 18 there 19 Graham: I.ll let ah Stan know and he can he can ah 20 let them know what.s going on 21 Dew: super duper 22 Graham: Okay thank you Mark 23 Dew: Bye 24 Graham: Bye 25
2341 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 4 Q: All right. Again, this transmission, 5 does it conform to the transcript? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: If that could be the next exhibit 8 please? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1137, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1137: Transcript of Peterman, D/C 12 Mark Dew and Sgt Rob Graham, 13 Command Post, track 1, 20:34 14 hrs. Sept. 06. 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 17 Q: All right. So we see, in the two (2) 18 transcripts that I just played for you at 20:20 and 19 20:34, references to individuals coming up to ERT 20 officers and advising them of the evacuation that's 21 taking place because something's going to happen either 22 that evening, or at one (1) point it says within the Army 23 Camp that evening. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And was that the kind of information
2351 that was being communicated to you that evening? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You were aware of that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was that of concern to you? 6 A: Yes, it was. 7 Q: And why? 8 A: Well, you have to take all this 9 information as it's coming in, at the time it's coming in 10 and process that with respect to what you feel may or may 11 not be going to happen later on. 12 So again, it goes to my general concern 13 specifically down in that sandy parking lot area with 14 respect to the movement of people out and into that 15 particular area. And of course now there's the concern 16 that potentially there's -- there's weapons around. 17 Q: All right. And just for the sake of 18 completeness, because this appears to be fairly well 19 established already in the evidence, but we actually see 20 during this very same timeframe, references in the scribe 21 note to -- to the evacuation or moving out of the women 22 and children. And I won't take you to each of the 23 references but you'll see them at 20:26, 20:29, and 24 20:43. 25 And maybe you could just take a moment to
2361 look at those and confirm for me that they appear to 2 relate to the radio transmissions that -- that we've just 3 been talking about. 4 The first is 20 -- 5 A: Are you talking in the scribe notes? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: 20:26? 8 Q: You see 20:26: 9 "Mark Dew called Dale Linton, reporting 10 Native women and children moving out as 11 they report something is going to 12 happen." 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And then we see 20:29. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: "Mark Dew reports kids are about to 17 be picked up as women feel something is 18 about to happen." 19 A: And -- and again, this goes to -- I'm 20 starting my conversation with Mr. McCabe at 20:25, as I 21 recall from what you've just told me. So this is in 22 addition to -- I'm listening to you in one (1) ear and 23 listening to what's going on in another ear. 24 Q: As -- as you told Tim McCabe you were 25 doing.
2371 A: Exactly. 2 Q: And then you see at 20:43, Rob Graham 3 reports from Mark Dew that: 4 "They are evacuating women and 5 children, preparing all night for 6 Kettle Point and Stoney Point. If they 7 have any problems with Kettle Point 8 councillors, they will set building on 9 fire." 10 And we -- and we see the content of that 11 scribe note contained in -- in the radio transmissions 12 that I've just played. Am I right? 13 A: Right. Right. 14 Q: Now you made some reference in your 15 testimony that you were present within the command centre 16 when there was a report of firearms. 17 And again, I'm not concerned at this point 18 with -- with the accuracy of that report but -- but 19 simply confirming that we actually hear in that 20:34 20 conversation, Exhibit P-1137 that Mark Dew communicates 21 to Rob Graham that Graham has just talked to a fellow 22 who's been in and eyeballed some of the weaponry. 23 He has seen four (4) SKS, thirty (30) 24 round detachable clips, a couple of which have fixed ten 25 (10) round clips, two (2) Rueger Mini 14's with thirty
2381 (30) round mags and hunting rifles with scope. 2 The informant also thinks they're up to 3 making gas bombs. And -- and is that the information 4 that -- that you were referring to -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- in response to Mr. Millar? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And we actually see a reference to 9 that as well, in the scribe note at 20:43 at the top of 10 page 76. 11 "Reports of numerous guns, four (4) 12 SFF's, thirty (30) detachable clips, 13 ten (10) fixed --" 14 And so on, right? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And -- and does that relate to the 17 telephone conversa -- or the radio transmission that 18 we've just described? 19 A: Right. And just so we're clear, 20 because I -- I don't want -- I want to make sure we're 21 clear here. Is that this conversation at 20:43 about -- 22 that the preparing all night for Kettle Point and Stoney 23 Point, if they have any problems with Kettle Point 24 councillors they will set the building on fire. 25 I -- I don't have any independent
2391 recollection of that particular point at all. But I -- I 2 know I talked -- I spoke to that at the injunction the 3 next morning. 4 So, I mean, clearly I knew about it 5 because I gave that evidence the next morning. But as 6 time has gone by, I just -- I remember when I was looking 7 at this, it was -- it was -- I have no recollection of 8 this whatsoever. This particular point. 9 Q: All right. And -- and as well, we 10 heard in the radio transmissions just played, a 11 reference, for want of a better term, to -- to potential 12 problems arising out of -- out of the interplay between 13 the Kettle Point councillors and individuals and -- and 14 the occupiers. 15 And you heard those references there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And -- and you were aware of that as 18 -- as a concern as well at the time? 19 A: Could you repeat that again, sir? 20 Q: Sure. There's a reference in the 21 radio transmissions to the Kettle Point councillors. And 22 -- and we heard, for example, that -- that Mark Dew 23 advises Rob Graham that the informant has estimated that 24 the occupiers are going to start building -- burning 25 buildings in the Army Base if any more of the Kettle
2401 Point Band Council show up, and so on. 2 A: I -- I remember -- my independent 3 recollection is specific points about the information 4 that Dew gave, that we received, or I received, but I 5 don't -- I don't remember the specific reference to 6 Kettle Point Councillors and their going to -- they -- 7 going to set fire to a building if they came down. I 8 just -- now I don't remember that. 9 Q: Okay. In your telephone conversation 10 with Tim McCabe, which is Exhibit P-752, you refer to the 11 fact that, quote: 12 "We also have a number of irate 13 citizens who are down there, I think 14 picketing." 15 And just stopping there, that would be a 16 reference to the citizen's group that you've given 17 testimony on, am I right? 18 A: Right, right. 19 Q: And also -- and you go on to say: 20 "And people from Kettle Point 21 themselves telling them to get out of 22 there." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And -- and what was that in reference 25 to?
2411 A: Well, I'm sure that's in reference to 2 either what Dew's telling me here or I'm -- I'm not sure 3 if I know at this time that the complainant, with respect 4 to the damage of his vehicle, was from Kettle Point. 5 I mean I'm just not sure how that goes but 6 I guess the point I'm trying to make is that that 7 information is coming in and I'm relating that type of 8 information to McCabe and that's clear. But as I sit 9 here today to be able to look at you and say I remember 10 specifically, independently of that particular piece of 11 information, I can't do that. 12 Q: Fair enough. And I'm going to turn 13 to one (1) last topic and that is the -- the movement of 14 officer resources and -- and checkpoints. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: When you testified in examination-in- 17 chief you indicated that, as you recollected, checkpoint 18 Alpha wasn't anywhere near you when you stopped and 19 talked to the ardent individuals at the intersection, and 20 do you remember that testimony? 21 A: Right, I do. 22 Q: And you explained, at another point 23 in your testimony, on February the 23rd at page 56, that 24 you thought some reinforcements ought to be placed at the 25 checkpoints closest to the area where those individuals
2421 were? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And again, that accords with your 4 recollection? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And you also referred to the moving 7 of checkpoints, a little bit later on in the piece, by 8 reason of concern for officer safety? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Now, we've heard a little bit about 11 that and the radio transmission was already played, but 12 I'm going to ask you to listen to -- to three (3) more, 13 if you would, and this is in the -- the second bundle of 14 materials at 20:23. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And do you have that? 19 A: I do. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 23 24 Radio Transmission: 25 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12
2431 Date: 06 September 1995 2 Start Time: 20:23 hours 3 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 2 seconds 4 Conversation Involves: Checkpoint Delta, Lima 1 5 6 Lima 1: Delta Lima one delta 7 Delta: Delta go ahead 8 Lima 1: Delta Lima one move two units to 9 checkpoint Charlie move two units to 10 checkpoint Charlie 11 U/K: The one-district cars will move to 12 checkpoint Charlie 13 Lima 1: Ten nine that 14 Delta: Lima one from ah delta the one district 15 cars will move to checkpoint Charlie 16 Lima 1: That.s ten four. Checkpoint alpha Lima 17 one checkpoint alpha 18 Alpha: Lima one go ahead. Lima one this is alpha 19 go ahead 20 Lima 1: Yeah stand-by one checkpoint alpha we 21 might have a change of plans 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER:
2441 Q: All right. And does the transcript 2 correspond to the transmission? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if that could be the next exhibit 5 please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1138, Your Honour. 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: 11...? 8 THE REGISTRAR: 38. 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: Thank you. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1138: Transcript of Checkpoint 12 Delta and Lima 1, Chatham 13 logger 0146, track 12, 20:23 14 hrs, Sept.06, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 17 Q: And -- and am I right that in this 18 transmission it would appear that LIMA 1 is instructing 19 Checkpoint Delta to move two (2) units to Checkpoint 20 Charlie? 21 A: Yes, that's what it appears to me. 22 Q: And would two (2) units be the 23 equivalent of four (4) officers, or do you know? 24 A: It would be at least two (2) 25 officers, potentially four (4), I'm not sure.
2451 Q: All right. 2 A: I don't know if they were doubled up. 3 Q: Okay. And if we could go to 20:26 4 which is the next item. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 7 8 Radio Transmission: 9 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 10 11 Date: 06 September 1995 12 Start Time: 20:26 hours 13 Duration of Transmission: 44 seconds 14 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Lima 1, Checkpoint Bravo 15 16 Lima 1: Ten four Lima two Lima one 17 Lima 2: Go ahead ah Lima one Lima two 18 Lima 1: Yeah move B to A move checkpoint B to 19 checkpoint A 20 Lima 2: Ten four 21 Lima 2: Checkpoint B Lima two 22 Bravo: Lima two ten four we copied ah Lima one 23 we.re moving to checkpoint alpha 24 Lima 1: Yeah Lima two Lima one 25 Lima 2: Go ahead Lima one
2461 Lima 1: Yeah you copied the earlier one about two 2 from ah delta to ah Charlie ten four 3 Lima 2: Ten four 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 8 Q: And again, does the transcript 9 correspond to the transmission? 10 A: Yes, it does. 11 Q: If that could be the next exhibit, 12 please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1139, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1139: Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1 16 and Checkpoint Bravo, Chatham 17 logger 0146, track 12, 20:26 18 hrs, Sept. 06, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 21 Q: And before I ask you about that, 22 perhaps we could simply play the -- the next 23 communication at 20:31. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
2471 Radio Transmission: 2 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 3 Date: 06 September 1995 4 Start Time: 20:31 hours 5 Duration of Transmission: 13 seconds 6 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Checkpoint Bravo 7 8 Bravo: Lima two checkpoint Bravo 9 Lima 2: Lima two go 10 Bravo: Just to advise ya Bravo is now in alpha 11 position 12 Lima 2: Ten four 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 17 Q: All right. And does that transcript 18 correspond to the transmission? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And if that could be the next 21 exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1140, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1140: Transcript of Lima 2 and 25 Checkpoint Bravo, Chatham
2481 logger 0146, track 12, 20:31 2 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 5 Q: And am I right, if one looks at those 6 two (2) transmissions we know that at 20:26 the command 7 centre is instructing that Checkpoint Bravo be moved to 8 Checkpoint Alpha, and that's acknowledged? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Now, if we could go to 21:00. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 13 14 Radio Transmission: 15 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 16 Date: 06 September 1995 17 Start Time: 21:00 hours 18 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 45 seconds 19 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Lima 1, 2465, Checkpoint 20 Alpha, Checkpoint Charlie 21 22 Lima 2: Twenty-four sixty five Lima two go ahead 23 2465: I.m looking for the ten twenty of the 24 six-district ERT team is it still in 25 Forest
2491 Lima 2: Lima one ah Lima two 2 Lima 1: Lima two Lima one go ahead 3 Lima 2: The ah location of six district ERT 4 Lima 1: Six district and three district are still 5 at Forest 6 Lima 2: Yeah twenty-four sixty five at Forest 7 2465: Ten four thank you 8 Lima 1: Lima one to Lima two 9 Lima 2: Go ahead Lima one 10 Lima 2: Lima one ah go ahead 11 Lima 1: Prepare to copy 12 Lima 2: Go ahead 13 Lima 1: We want ah checkpoint Charlie moved ah a 14 little further back towards checkpoint 15 delta and at that new checkpoint and at 16 checkpoint alpha we want the roads closed 17 off we want the roads closed off 18 completely no more traffic 19 Alpha: Alpha ten four 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE INTERRUPTED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 24 Q: And again -- 25
2501 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 2 3 Lima 2: Checkpoint Charlie ah are you ten four on 4 that command 5 Lima 2: Checkpoint Charlie from Lima two are you 6 ten four on ah Lima one.s command 7 Charlie: Lima two Charlie ten four 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 12 Q: And again, does the transcript 13 correspond to the transmission. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If that could be the next exhibit, 16 please? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1141, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1141: Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1, 20 2465, Checkpoint Alpha and 21 Checkpoint Charlie, Chatham 22 logger 0146, track 12, 21:00 23 hrs. Sept. 06, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER:
2511 Q: And I expect there's going to be more 2 evidence about some of these events, but simply put, this 3 entry would reflect that at 21:00 hours instructions are 4 being given that Checkpoint Charlie be moved back and in 5 the direction of Checkpoint Delta; am I right? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And as well, at Checkpoint ALPHA the 8 roads are to be closed off? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And finally, if I can take you to 11 21:03, which is the next item in the same bundle, and if 12 that could be played, please. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 Radio Transmission: 17 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 18 Date: 06 September 1995 19 Start Time: 21:03 hours 20 Duration of Transmission: 3 minutes and 2 seconds 21 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Lima 1, Checkpoint 22 Charlie, Checkpoint Delta, Checkpoint Alpha 23 24 Charlie: Lima two ah Charlie 25 Lima 2: Go ahead Charlie Lima two
2521 Charlie: Yeah just confirmation ah new spot I/A 2 south of our position 3 Lima 2: Charlie ah Lima two you.re totally broken 4 Charlie: Yeah we.re just confirming this is the 5 spot I/A road I/A 6 Lima 2: Charlie ah the command from ah Lima one 7 was to move back towards ah Delta 8 Charlie: Yeah that.s ten four that.s where we.re 9 moving we.re just confirming the exact 10 location 11 Lima 2: He didn.t give me an exact location you 12 can call him if you like 13 Charlie: Lima one Charlie 14 Lima 1: Lima one go ahead 15 Charlie: Just confirming ah the location you want 16 us to set up ah towards Delta 17 Lima 1: Yeah that has been now changed effective 18 ah twenty five seconds ago stand-by for 19 new instructions 20 Charlie: Standing by 21 Lima 1: Lima one to checkpoint Delta 22 Delta: Go ahead Lima one 23 Lima 1: Checkpoint delta you.re to move north of 24 the Army Camp Road entrance north of the 25 Army Camp Road entrance to ah the Army
2531 Camp and close off the road at that 2 location close off the road allowing ah 3 traffic to come out of the Army Camp 4 towards twenty one but not towards 5 Ipperwash is that ten four 6 Delta: Lima one ah delta ten four 7 Lima 1: Lima one to checkpoint Charlie do you read 8 Charlie: Charlie go ahead 9 Lima 1: You.re to ah remain in your position and 10 ah set the cars off to the side and just 11 have an observation the road will be 12 closed up at Delta you just ah act as 13 observation is that ten four 14 Charlie: That.s ten four 15 Lima 1: Checkpoint Alpha from Lima one read 16 Alpha: I/A 17 Lima 1: You.re to have the road closed there and 18 checkpoint Bravo should at your location 19 as well that ten four 20 Alpha: That.s ten four they.re at this location 21 now and the road is closed 22 Lima 1: Ten four 23 Bravo: Lima two checkpoint Bravo 24 Lima 2: Bravo ah Lima two go ahead 25 Bravo: We have a cottager here requesting to go
2541 to his residence he.s between us and the 2 Army Camp Road do we just escort him down 3 or just let him go down or is it closed 4 for everybody 5 Lima 2: It.s closed for everybody 6 Bravo: Ten four 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 11 Q: And again, does that transcript 12 correspond to the transmission? 13 A: Other than I think the -- the sixth 14 line down, so it would be the fourth -- where it says 15 "Charlie", the fourth reference to Charlie, I don't think 16 it's Charlie making that call. I think Lima 2 is saying: 17 "Charlie, ah, the command from Lima 1 18 was to move back towards Delta." 19 So I don't -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- think that -- that is attributed 22 to Charlie but should be attributed to Lima 2. 23 Q: All right, so subject to that 24 correction which we'll make on the transcript, does the 25 transcript accurately reflect the transmission, as you
2551 hear it? 2 A: Yes, it does. 3 Q: And if that could be the next 4 exhibit, please? 5 A: 1142, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1142: Transcript of Lima 2, Lima 1, 8 Checkpoint Charlie, 9 Checkpoint Delta and 10 Checkpoint Alpha, Chatham 11 logger 0146, track 12, 21:03 12 hrs, Sept. 06, 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MARK SANDLER: 15 Q: And to -- to simplify what is 16 undoubtedly complicated to the -- to the listener, what 17 we have here is, and you correct me if I'm wrong, that 18 Checkpoint Delta is being advised to move north of the 19 Army Camp Road entrance to the Base and to close off the 20 road at that location; am I right? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: It's to allow traffic to exit the 23 Base, but not allow the traffic to travel north along the 24 Army Camp Road; am I right? 25 A: Right, that's right.
2561 Q: And Checkpoint Charlie is, instead of 2 the previous instruction, to remain at its current 3 position but simply act as observers and set the cars off 4 to the side; am I right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And you were aware that during this 7 period, steps were being taken to -- to close access to 8 the area; am I right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And -- and that corresponds to what 11 we hear on the radio transmission? 12 A: Yes, it does. 13 Q: Okay. Thank you, Detective 14 Inspector Wright. You'll hear from me again but not now. 15 Thank you, Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Sandler. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 19 we proceed, I just have one (1) additional -- a couple of 20 additional questions for Inspector Wright. 21 22 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Inspector Wright, in July and August 24 1995, and early September, did you know Captain Doug -- 25 Douglas Smith from Camp Ipperwash?
2571 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: Do you remember during the period of 3 time on -- do you remember on September the 6th, Captain 4 Smith from the Military attending at the Command Post? 5 A: I remember there was some Canadian 6 Forces personnel at the Command Post, I don't remember 7 particular people. 8 Q: And had you met these individuals 9 before? 10 A: I may have, I -- I don't recall. 11 Q: And were you made aware, by the 12 individuals who attended at the Command Post, that they 13 were in cellular -- had been in cellular phone contact 14 with the occupiers at the Army Camp? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 17 It would be appropriate, I guess, Commissioner, to 18 canvass for cross-examination. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Perhaps if anybody intends to ask any questions they 21 could indicate in the usual way, stand up please and 22 we'll get some idea of where we are. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2581 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Looks like 2 everybody's on their feet. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we'll start, I 4 guess, with Ms. Jones on behalf of the OPPA. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 6 Jones, on behalf of the OPPA? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: About two (2) hours. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About two 9 (2) hours? You have to speak up because obviously -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It'll be -- I'll 11 repeat it, Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll 13 repeat it? Okay. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's two (2) hours. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Province 16 of Ontario? 17 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Forty-five (45) 18 minutes. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Province of 20 Ontario forty-five (45) minutes. 21 Ms. McAleer, on behalf of Mr. Harris? 22 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Ten (10) to 23 fifteen (15) minutes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten (10) to fifteen 25 (15) minutes, Ms. McAleer.
2591 The next person would be Mr. Sulman. 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Fifteen (15) to 3 twenty (20) minutes, sir. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fifteen (15) to twenty 5 (20) minutes, Mr. Sulman on behalf of Mr. Beaubien. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 7 Perschy...? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The next person would 9 be Ms. Perschy. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 11 Perschy...? 12 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I'd like to reserve 13 ten (10) minutes, depending on what -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Twenty (20) minutes 15 reserved. 16 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Ten (10) minutes. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, ten (10) minutes, 18 excuse me, for Ms. Perschy on behalf of Ms. Hutton. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 20 Municipality...? 21 MS. JANET CLERMONT: About five (5) to ten 22 (10) minutes. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Municipality of 24 Lambton Shores, Ms. Clermont, five (5) to ten (10) 25 minutes.
2601 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Alexander...? 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Four (4) to five (5) 4 hours. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Alexander, on 6 behalf of the Estate, four (4) to five (5) hours. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Four (4) hours for 8 Mr. Rosenthal. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal, on 10 behalf of the Aazhoodena and George Family Group -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Scullion...? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- four (4) hours. 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Ninety (90) minutes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Scullion, on behalf 16 of the Residents of Aazhoodena, ninety (90) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 George...? 19 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: For the First 20 Nations and Chiefs I would expect to be about an hour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Combined? 22 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For the First 24 Nations, yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: For the First Nation
2611 and the Chiefs of Ontario Mr. George indicated 2 approximately an hour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 Falconer...? 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Two (2) to three (3) 6 hours. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) to 8 three (3) hours? 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Falconer, on behalf 11 of Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto, two (2) to three 12 (3) hours. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 14 have to add that up right now, we can do it after we 15 break. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It adds up to, at the 17 low of fifteen point nine (15.9) hours to a high of 18 eighteen point two (18.2) hours. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which is 20 roughly the same length of time as the examination-in- 21 chief took, roughly. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Roughly. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 24 wanted -- did you want to have some discussion, Mr. 25 Millar, regarding our suggestion that we sit Fridays?
2621 Would this be a good time to do that or 2 would you rather do that tomorrow? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, if you could give 4 me two (2) minutes to just get some material we could, or 5 we could do it tomorrow morning. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would that be 7 a better time -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, why don't we do 9 it first thing tomorrow morning? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 11 if I want to start the cross-examination right now. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- should we 16 break for the day or wait and see if... 17 Would you rather do that discussion 18 tomorrow morning? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Why don't we do it 20 tomorrow morning? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I know 22 it's a little earlier than we normally break when we start 23 late, but I'd like to break now then for the day. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we'll do
2631 that discussion first thing in the morning and then 2 we'll -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: First thing tomorrow 4 morning. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just carry 6 on with -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It'll only take a few 8 minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 And then we'll carry on with the cross-examinations until 11 we complete them. 12 Thank you very much. We'll adjourn for the 13 day now. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 16 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday March the 7th at 9.00 17 a.m. 18 19 (WITNESS RETIRES) 20 21 --- Upon adjourning 4:34 p.m. 22 23 24 25
2641 2 3 Certified Correct, 4 5 6 7 8 _________________ 9 Carol Geehan, Ms. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25