11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 3rd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) (np) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 THOMAS MICHAEL BRESSETTE, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 8 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Horton 66 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brian Eyolfson 75 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Susan Freeborn 89 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 95 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Mark Frederick 145 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 162 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 222 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 259 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 268 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 286 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-254 Document Number 2001343 July 22/94 4 letter from Staff Sergeant K. Bouwman 5 OPP to the Superintendent OPP Chatham 6 Re: Policing - Kettle Point Reserve. 162 7 P-255 Hansard, June 18/92, Minutes of 8 Proceedings and evidence of the 9 Standing Committee on Aboriginal affairs. 169 10 P-256 Document Number 7000412 July 12/95 11 OPP Maple Situation Report Number 12 012 Re: Native Elements from W.D. 13 Smith, Capt. Tac. Comd. Camp Ipperwash 244 14 P-257 Document Number 2001217 May 27/93 15 letter to OPP Superintendent from S.J. 16 McDonald No. 4813 Sergeant, Liaison 17 Officer for E.B. Beacock No. 2156 18 Acting Staff Sergeant. 249 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, everybody. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to, 15 before Mr. Ross does his cross-examination, advise 16 everyone of the witness lineup as we expect it to take 17 place next week. The first witness will be Ms. Liz 18 Stevens. That's Liz Thunder. 19 The second witness we anticipate will be 20 Mr. Chico Ralf and we will hopefully have material out to 21 everyone either later today or tomorrow morning. 22 The next witness will be Mr. Bob Watts, he 23 will be here on Tuesday, then, Mr. Bruce Elijah who, I 24 think, can only be here on Wednesday and then Mr. Bob 25 Antone can only be here on Thursday and we had some other
81 witnesses. We propose for next week Layton Elijah and 2 Mr. Ben Pouget. 3 But given our timing problems with some of 4 these witnesses, we -- we don't think that -- we're not 5 going to call Mr. Pouget, nor Mr. Elijah unless there's a 6 problem with Mr. Chico Ralph, but we'll let everybody 7 know, but that's -- it's Liz Thunder or Liz Stevens, 8 Chico Ralph, Bob Watts, Bruce Elijah, Bob Antone. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Millar. I think Mr. Ross is the next party to 11 examine Chief Bressette. Good morning, Mr. Ross. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Good morning, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 15 THOMAS MICHAEL BRESSETTE, Resumed: 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 18 Q: Good morning, Chief Bressette. 19 A: Good morning, Mr. Ross. 20 Q: Chief Bressette, is it fair to say 21 that the evidence, the testimony that you've given at 22 this Inquiry is based on your personal knowledge and 23 information gathered while you were involved in Band 24 politics? 25 A: Yes.
91 Q: Now, from your knowledge of the 2 circumstances and the relationship between the residents, 3 the people who resided at Stoney Point IR-43 and Kettle 4 Point IR-44, would it be correct to say that from your 5 knowledge, as gathered while in politics, prior to the 6 taking in 1942 of the lands, both communities existed in 7 an environmental accommodation built on the Anishnaabek 8 principle of consensus? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I take it, sir, that left to its 11 own accord and without intervention of the Federal 12 Government as far as taking of your lands were concerned, 13 you could find no reason to believe that this spirit of 14 cooperation and some manageable co-existence, that would 15 have gone on? 16 A: If I had a crystal ball I could 17 answer you -- 18 Q: Well, -- 19 A: -- clearly, but you're -- you're 20 suggesting something I -- I -- I don't know. 21 Q: Fine. That's your answer. And we've 22 been shown a document -- sorry, a document was put before 23 Ron George, which is entered as Exhibit 226 and it 24 appears to be a Department of Mines and Resources, Indian 25 Affairs Branch reporting on an election back in 1940.
101 And it appeared to show that the residents 2 of Stoney Point elected their own councillor and the 3 residents of Kettle Point elected their own councillor 4 and both communities elected the Chief. 5 You've got the document before you now? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yes. And is this consistent with 8 your understanding of the politics of the two (2) 9 communities back in 1940? 10 A: Is it what? My understanding? 11 Q: Yes, of the politics. 12 A: It's the way things were, I guess, 13 directed by the Department of Indian Affairs. 14 Q: That's good enough, thank you. And, 15 so at that time, it's clear to say that you had two (2) 16 separate communities on two (2) land bases and a 17 political system which did not clearly provide for 18 domination of anyone over the other. 19 Is that a fair statement? 20 A: I don't know if anybody had 21 domination over anybody. 22 Q: Thank you very much. I mean, your 23 answers are so far very great, keep going. 24 Now, in 1942 it appears as though 25 representations were made to the -- to Canada by the
111 Department of National Defence that they wanted to take 2 the lands at IR-43 for an advance training -- an advance 3 military training centre. 4 Is this your understanding? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Would you agree with me that an 7 advance military training centre is far removed from what 8 became Club Fed? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And far removed from the summer use 11 as a marriage patch? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And very far removed from six (6) 14 weeks' operational training of cadets? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So that if the representation to 17 Canada was for an advanced military training centre, 18 would you agree then, that when there was no need for an 19 advanced military training centre at that location, the 20 lands should have been returned? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And even if Canada continued the 23 pretence that there is a need for those lands, so long as 24 they were not being used for advanced military training, 25 they should have been returned?
121 A: Yes. 2 Q: A situation which came to fruition at 3 the latest in 1945? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: The war was over, the lands should 6 have been returned? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And if, in fact, they were not being 9 used for the purposes that were represented to Canada to 10 obtain them in the first place, they should have been 11 returned? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, and I'm 14 not asking you to crystal ball, this is an Inquiry, it is 15 not a trail. So just give me your best answer, please. 16 Would you agree that if the lands were 17 returned in 1945, the problems that existed would be a 18 lot more manageable than they are today? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And would you agree with me that 21 between 1945 and 1986, and I take that date because 22 that's the date that you were -- you went on Council, 23 that many things happened as far as the two (2) 24 communities which were now forced to live on the Kettle 25 Point lands. But there was -- but there were persistent
131 requests for the -- for the return of the lands over 2 those years? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: As a matter of fact, these things 5 could have been wrapped up to say they were actually 6 demands by both people of Kettle Point and Stoney Point 7 for the return of the lands? 8 A: All I know is in the old Council 9 minutes there's several references to requesting that the 10 government return the land. 11 Q: And that position had never been 12 departed from? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And, sir, between 1986 and 1990 you 15 were a councillor for the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony 16 Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it that during those four 19 (4) years, part of your efforts was still directed to the 20 return of the lands? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And is it fair to say that during 23 that time, the most that you got out of Canada was lip 24 service and empty promises? 25 A: At that time, yes.
141 Q: That there was never any serious or 2 it never appeared to be a serious attempt to sit down and 3 address the problem? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And during that time, the situation 6 on Kettle Point IR 44 was getting worse, you were getting 7 more overcrowding and more problems which could be traced 8 back to the wrongful -- sorry, back to the taking of the 9 land in 1942? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the failure to return them? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it, sir, that, in 1990 you 14 were elected Chief for the first time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And your term was from 1990 to 1992? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And during that time, sir, there 19 appeared to be a movement, a two (2) pronged movement. 20 One (1) of them was for the return of the land and the 21 other one a suggestion that there were two (2) Bands as 22 opposed to one (1) Band? 23 A: I know some people felt that way, but 24 pre-dating my -- my tenure in -- in -- in political 25 officer there was a group of people who approached
151 Council and I believe they were funded to set up a 2 locatees committee. And those -- two (2) of those people 3 were still sitting on the Council -- three (3) of them 4 were on the council when I was on the Council. 5 Q: And who were those three (3)? 6 A: Angeline Shawkence, Melva George and 7 Robert George. 8 Q: And these three (3) -- 9 A: They were all -- they were all on the 10 Council when I was elected to the Council. 11 Q: And by 1991, December 1991, you were 12 aware that there were presentations before the Standing 13 Committee on Aboriginal Affairs? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that the people who appeared as 16 witnesses were Robert George, otherwise known as "Nobby" 17 George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Maynard T. George, otherwise known as 20 Maynard T. George, and -- and Ron George, otherwise known 21 as "Spike"? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And these people made a 24 presentation to the Standing Committee and have you had 25 an opportunity to review the Hansard Document which was
161 created as a result of that presentation? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You've never read it? 4 A: No. 5 Q: I see. Well, I'm going to tell you, 6 what -- the position it was advancing was that the lands 7 should be returned and I guess that's consistent with the 8 general position of the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony 9 Point? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there was also a suggestion 12 before and the -- the committee that there were two (2) 13 Bands as -- two (2) different Bands as opposed to just 14 one (1) Band. 15 And I take it that if that was represented 16 to the Committee, you do not agree that there were two 17 (2) Bands? 18 A: We made a representation to the 19 Committee with people who were born at Stoney Point in 20 1992. 21 Q: 1992? I'm going to get to that. 22 What I'm trying to do -- I may -- I'm trying to keep it 23 chronological. 24 A: You know, all I can tell you from the 25 way your -- your questions appear to be going, there were
171 people who believed there were two (2) Bands and there 2 are people who believe there are two (2) communities. 3 And they had one (1) Chief and -- and that's pretty much 4 the way it is today. And, you know, it's just an 5 opinion. 6 If I go outside today and say, Gees, it's 7 a nice day and you go outside and you're feeling bad and 8 you go, What a horrible day, that's an opinion that we 9 both have. It's different and it alters the way that we 10 think. 11 Q: Absolutely. 12 A: So, you know, that's -- that's all I 13 can tell you about your -- your -- your, I guess dealing 14 with one (1) or two (2) Bands in the context of which I - 15 - I've sort of heard it from both sides. I've lived it 16 in the community, it's the same there. 17 Q: Well, -- 18 A: And if you want me to change the 19 community's mind, I urge you to go and try and change 20 their mind, because it's a hard thing to do. 21 Q: I don't propose to go down that road 22 at all, and just to -- to get you to remove that 23 defensive wall, Chief, I don't propose to get into the 24 one (1) Band, two (2) Band thing. 25 All I want is to just come down to the
181 series of facts, okay? 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: So I'll go back, and I'll say that in 4 December of 1991, there was this presentation in Ottawa, 5 suggesting A) the lands should be returned. And I guess 6 everybody's on all fours on that. 7 And there was also the suggestion that 8 there were two (2) Bands, rather than (1) Band, and the 9 jury is still out on that. So far, so good. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. But I would take it then, that 12 your Council would have disagreed with any proposition of 13 the locatees committee that there were two (2) Bands? 14 A: We were -- we never were instructed 15 to take a position. We -- our position was we were to 16 represent all interests therein. Until all interests are 17 consulted and agree upon a process it remains internal 18 and that's where the decision will come from. It won't 19 come from me and the Council. It'll come from our 20 people. 21 Q: Okay, very good. And this "all 22 interests", would that -- is that still the direction of 23 your -- of your Council that you want to look after all 24 interests? 25 A: Yes.
191 Q: And the situation that we have today, 2 where there's a definite identifiable group living off IR 3 44 and on what was IR 43, you all -- you want to 4 represent those interests, also? 5 A: Well, that's what we're supposed to 6 do. 7 Q: Okay, fine, and as far as that is 8 concerned, I take it that there is accommodation, there 9 is a facility to accommodate the defined and determined 10 interests of those people currently occupying the camp, 11 if they can just organize themselves? 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner...? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 Henderson has -- I don't know. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I think we're 16 getting to is there a modern facility or how is this 17 being dealt with today. I don't understand My Friend to 18 be putting this in any historical context. 19 I'm sorry. My Friend has asked a question 20 that sounds very much to me as though he is asking 21 whether or not there is a facility today in the context 22 of claims negotiations which I think would violate two 23 (2) canons in respect of what the Commission is doing and 24 why it's doing it. 25 He's asking is there a facility to
201 accommodate an existing interest of people who are living 2 in the Camp and their interests in the course of 3 negotiations. I don't understand that to be in any 4 historical context. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 7 Ross...? 8 Are you asking it in a historical context 9 or at the present time? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I'm asking it, Mr. 11 Commissioner, in response to the words of the Witness. I 12 asked -- he was the one who spoke about protecting all 13 interests. 14 I wrote it down, all interests. And 15 rather than continuing in my line, this is an opportunity 16 for me to understand a little more clearly about all 17 interests and in spite of Mr. Henderson's position, I 18 propose, subject only to your ruling to pursue all 19 interests, Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Do you have any observation, Mr. Millar? Well, it looks 22 like others may -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps my -- I 24 got to tell you, I didn't understand Mr. Ross' question. 25 So --but I think he can fairly ask the Witness what the
211 Witness meant by "all interests". 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, and it 3 looks like we're going to have some other observations. 4 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal...? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, I 6 would think you should make it clear that it doesn't have 7 to be just a historical interest. 8 Of course, you're going to be making 9 recommendations about the future. You're not just a 10 historian compiling history. 11 You are going to made recommendations to 12 try to avoid a similar situation in future. And what's 13 going on now is -- now and the future is after now and 14 your report will hopefully help people to guide 15 themselves in the future. So we can't be tied to just 16 history. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Mr. 18 Henderson, you get the last word, it looks like. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I would like to 20 think that's true, sir. Mr. Millar suggested that if Mr. 21 Ross is merely asking what did you mean by "all 22 interests", I have no objection to that question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 24 start from there. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He didn't ask
221 that question. He asked, how are we fitting these 2 interests and how are they being accommodated, clearly in 3 the context of claims negotiations. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Now, if My 6 Friends want to persist in this line, despite repeated 7 objections, despite repeated statements by yourself, sir, 8 that we are not dealing with claims negotiations in this 9 forum -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- then perhaps 12 we should take some time and consider the mandate and let 13 people bring their motions and get it all clarified 14 because, frankly, I don't have any difficulty 15 understanding it and I know the Chief doesn't have any 16 difficulty understanding it. 17 And we are not going to sit here and 18 answer questions that speculate on how the claims ought 19 to be handled or how various interests ought to be 20 accommodated. 21 So, I don't mean to make that sound like 22 the last word in the sense of an ultimatum, but at some 23 point the line has to be drawn. If the Commission wants 24 to inquire into claims, then let's have a discussion 25 about that, let people bring their motions and you can
231 make a ruling. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I am not -- I am 4 not going to sit quietly, you know, for this -- for the 5 question that Mr. Ross asked or any future question that 6 suggests here's how interests ought to be defined, 7 accommodated, or anything else. 8 There is a negotiation process going on, 9 it has nothing to do with this Inquiry, it's not within 10 the mandate of this Inquiry. And it's not going to be 11 debated in this Inquiry as long as, you know, we take a 12 break now and then so I can have a cigarette and gather 13 my breath. 14 The -- you know, the fact is, if we're 15 going to keep going down that road, then, you know, 16 clearly we have a more serious problem. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And I -- I know 19 you take the point, sir, and I don't want to belabour it, 20 but, you know -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is a 22 difficult point. Obviously, we do not want to get into 23 the substance of the claims negotiations. I don't think 24 anybody has any question about that. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Oh, I think some
241 people do -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think that -- 4 perhaps -- I think Mr. Henderson is being a little 5 oversensitive. And I think that the -- the -- I don't -- 6 I think that Mr. Ross should be asked -- allowed to ask 7 his question -- the follow-up question all interest, and 8 then we should see. 9 Mr. Ross knows as well as we all do, the - 10 - the parameters of -- of -- of a provincially appointed 11 Public Inquiry and I do not think that Mr. Ross is 12 attempting or will attempt to get into the claims 13 negotiation process. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And if he does, then I 16 will object as well, but I don't think that, from what he 17 said, was his intention. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 19 I thought and I think that's where we'll go and we'll see 20 what happens. And Mr. Henderson, you've never been shy 21 about standing up when you think it's appropriate and 22 that's what we'll have to do and if it becomes a regular 23 pattern, we may have to deal with it on a more systemic 24 basis. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir.
251 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 Mr. Ross? Do you want to continue? And you understand 3 as well as any of us that we're not going into the 4 substance of the claims negotiation process. It's not 5 within the mandate -- 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Frankly, Mr. 7 Commissioner, I don't care about the claims negotiation 8 process. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 10 fine. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: There's nothing I need 12 on that. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, you're 14 reassuring Mr. Henderson that he has nothing to worry 15 about? 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, he -- he can 17 worry if he wants to, I mean, I have enough problems 18 reassuring my dear wife Joanne that she doesn't have 19 anything to worry about. 20 And as far as Mr. Millar is concerned, I 21 don't propose to adopt his question. He can ask what 22 question he wants. I will stay within the parameters. I 23 am not going to try to go through the back door to get 24 something I can't get from the front door. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well --
261 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And that said, I will 2 continue. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's 4 continue. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 7 Q: I was referring, Chief, to the 8 position taken by the locatees committee back in 1991. 9 And you advised me that the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony 10 were looking after all interests as far as the return of 11 the lands and your membership is concerned. 12 Is that correct so far? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Now, as far as -- we can't 15 hide our head in the sands. Do you recognize that there 16 is a number of people whose names appear on your band 17 list who are residing at Aazhoodena? 18 A: I don't know who's residing there. 19 I've never been given a list of who's residing there. 20 Q: But that wasn't my question. I said, 21 are you aware that there are a number of people whose 22 names appear on your band list who are residing at 23 Aazhoodena? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And these people have to -- to
271 a very large extent, excluded themselves from the day-to- 2 day activities of the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony Point. 3 Am I correct with that? 4 A: I -- I don't really think so. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I -- I -- they still come to the 7 community. They use whatever they -- they want to there. 8 There's gas stations there, we have service -- grocery 9 store and those type of businesses. They're -- they're 10 in the community. Nobody locks a gate there and says you 11 can't come in or -- or, you know, we won't let you in or 12 that kind of tactic, that is not used. 13 But when we try to have people who have 14 interests on Stoney Point try to go there, they're told 15 they can't go there. So, I mean, we don't do that and 16 it's practising the opposite when you -- when there's 17 tries --attempts to go on the other land. 18 So all interests are not being 19 accommodated right now. And not -- it's not by us. It's 20 someone else who's withholding people who have every 21 right, and a very historical right to go on that land, 22 from entering that land. 23 Q: The problem with not just answering 24 the question as asked, Chief, and it provokes other 25 questions. For instance, if people come from Muncey to
281 buy gas down at Kettle Point, you don't stop them either? 2 A: Well, they don't -- they don't come 3 there -- they do come down there and buy gas, we don't 4 stop them. It's -- people who own those businesses are 5 doing it for the public. 6 Q: So that as far as these people who 7 are now resident at Aazhoodena is concerned, is it fair 8 to say that they spend most of their time away from IR 9 44? 10 A: I don't know. Some work down there, 11 some -- some work in the community. So I don't know what 12 percentage you're talking about. 13 Q: That's fine, Chief. You're the 14 Chief. Anyway, what we've got is the presentation by the 15 locatees Committee to -- the Standing Committee on 16 Aboriginal Affairs in December of 1991. 17 And then in 1992, in June, you appeared 18 before the same Standing Committee? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, what would have provoked you to 21 appear before that Standing Committee? 22 A: In an attempt to look after all the 23 interests because there were people who weren't aware of 24 the previous presentation that was made. And we have to 25 speak for their interests as well because it didn't, I
291 guess, address all those interest. 2 There was no consultation in the community 3 advising there was going to be a presentation and that 4 they'd be speaking on behalf of all the interests. 5 Q: I see. So I take it then that you 6 must have had a briefing of what was presented before the 7 Standing Committee in 1991? 8 A: I think what we basically understood 9 was a presentation was made. And as far as, I guess, our 10 dealings with Mr. Maynard T. George and the kind of 11 information he was disseminating wasn't very accurate in 12 terms of dealing with all interests. So there had to be 13 some kind of response put forward as to the perspective 14 of other people, and that's what was done. 15 Q: Were you aware that before the 16 Standing Committee the involvement of Maynard George was 17 minimal, that the presentations were made really by 18 Robert "Nobby" George and by Ron "Spike" George? 19 A: I still think Maynard probably was 20 the one that pulled together the information and made the 21 suggestion, Let's go there. 22 Q: I see. So he was the -- the brain 23 behind the operation? 24 A: Well, he appeared to try to portray 25 himself as such. And I -- I don't know, that's his own -
301 - his own undertakings, where he was telling people he 2 was going to Ottawa, meeting with ministers and -- and 3 other things. 4 And I made sure -- and when I followed up 5 with some of these ministers, they said they never met 6 with him. But he came to the community and claimed he 7 was meeting with them. 8 So there was some questionable approaches 9 that he made that we had to respond to. 10 Q: I see. And those questionable 11 approaches that he made, you responded to them with your 12 submission before the Standing Committee in June of 1992? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And I take it that there was -- and 15 this was all during your second term as Chief? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yeah. And in May of 1993, that's 18 when some members moved to occupy the range up on IR 43? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. And this met with disapproval 21 of yourself and your Council? 22 A: Well, it wasn't a right thing to do 23 at the time. Given the fact that we were trying to open 24 the doors for negotiation and the information we were 25 receiving if people occupy, we cannot negotiate, we -- we
311 couldn't sanction anything. 2 Q: I understand that. But does this 3 mean that you approved -- your Council approved or 4 disapproved? 5 A: Well, it means that we reluctantly 6 had to disapprove. And we had a huge debate about that 7 internal, like all Councils do. Some people felt we 8 should and some felt we shouldn't. At the end of the 9 day, it was basically agreed if we wanted to proceed, and 10 try to address everyone's interests, we would have to 11 open up a dialogue with the government. 12 So we then said, well, if we sanction and 13 approve this there's unexploded ordinance, somebody gets 14 hurt, somebody gets killed by this -- this act, we're 15 going to be held liable. And we'll be the ones that the 16 government will be pointing a finger at, at the end of 17 the day. 18 So we could not approve anything like 19 that. 20 Q: But these unexploded ordinances that 21 you are speaking about, they didn't appear to affect the 22 cadets. 23 A: The cadets were supervised down 24 there. 25 Q: They didn't appear to affect the
321 people who were using it as a marriage patch. 2 A: There was a section cut off and only 3 that small, little section where the -- they stayed near 4 the Ipperwash Provincial Park, but these were on the 5 ranges. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: I don't know what was used on those 8 ranges. 9 Q: Well, the thing is, you see, this is 10 the problem when the question is not specifically 11 answered, Chief. You're taken into different areas that 12 I've got to follow you. 13 A: I -- 14 Q: You were the one who indicated that 15 you went to the unexploded audiences -- ordinances, but I 16 will leave that alone. 17 A: There's signs all over the outside 18 edge, warning of that and I think still today people are 19 carrying out a due diligence obligation on behalf of the 20 Federal Government, making sure nobody goes onto the 21 property and they're being paid to do that. 22 So, you know, somebody's still carrying 23 out the DND's mandate. 24 Q: May or may not be so, but I'm not 25 going to follow that line. So, anyway, you -- you are --
331 your Council reluctantly disapproved of the occupation of 2 the range? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, there's evidence that the 5 occupation of the range was a political act of a number 6 of people intended to put pressure on the Government of 7 Canada to come to the table. 8 Did you see this as a political act? 9 A: I think the way it was looked, is 10 people were taking an approach that where they went and 11 what happened could have caused somebody some harm. 12 Q: Absolutely, I've got no difficulty 13 with that. But what I want is, do you agree that it was, 14 wise or unwise, it was a political act? 15 A: I guess any form of protest is a 16 political act, isn't it? 17 Q: But even apart from your guess, is it 18 that you just don't want to agree that it was a political 19 act? 20 A: No, I'm not saying that. That's what 21 a political act is, standing -- stand up in protest. 22 It's a political act. 23 Q: Okay. So -- and this political act 24 was not approved by your Council? 25 A: For the reasons I stated, yes.
341 Q: That is true. Were you aware that 2 one (1) of your councillors, Gerald George, was among the 3 occupiers? 4 A: Yes, he told us he was there. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: And when -- when Gerald was first 7 elected, it was basically to deal with Stoney Point 8 issues. I think you pointed out earlier on some people 9 were elected and they took a position. That's what they 10 were speaking for. I think when Ron was elected he made 11 it clear to us that's what he was elected for. 12 Q: Now, my understanding that that 13 occupation was around the 6th of May, 1993? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, I would like you to look at 16 Inquiry Document Number 1011054. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll find 21 where it is, Chief Bressette, just a minute. It's either 22 in the binder or we'll put it on the screen. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
351 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Under Tab 8. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 3 is it in the black binder? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Under what 6 tab? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 8. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 10 Q: Have you got that document? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I take it you've had an opportunity 13 to read that document in preparation for your 14 examinations? 15 A: I'm reading it right now. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, there's this guy, Terry 21 Humberstone, and he's indicating that he's going to meet 22 with tomorrow, which would be the 4th of June, 1993. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it was with respect to the 25 Ipperwash matters.
361 A: The Provincial Park. 2 Q: Yeah. And then -- but at this time, 3 the range was occupied? 4 A: Well, he's talking -- this guy's from 5 the Ministry of Natural Resources, not DND. 6 Q: That might -- that might very well be 7 so, but he was meeting with you. There was some who 8 suggest he was going to be meeting with you on the 4th? 9 A: To determine the official Ministry 10 position, which is the Provincial Government. It's not 11 Federal or it would be Department. 12 Q: And the -- the letter speaks for 13 itself. Now, I ask you to look at Inquiry Document 14 9000002. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Apparently it's in that blue folder. 19 That is it. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: It's on the screen, so you can just 24 find the appropriate document. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was the
371 first document in that folder, but it looks like you may 2 have mixed up the order a bit. It was the first 3 document. 4 THE WITNESS: Graham Swan -- probably at 5 the bottom. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: You've got the document? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, the first -- this seems to be a 15 communication from Graham Swan. Did you know who Graham 16 Swan was? 17 A: Deputy Minister of -- 18 Q: Indian Affairs, yeah. To Roger 19 Gagnon. Did you know who Roger Gagnon was? 20 A: No, not really. 21 Q: I'd suggest to you he was an 22 Assistant Deputy Minister. 23 A: If you say so. 24 Q: And to Bill Vanierson. Did you know 25 Bill -- who Bill Vanierson was?
381 A: No. 2 Q: I'd suggest to you that he headed up 3 Lands and Trust Services. 4 A: If you say so, I don't know. 5 Q: And with a copy to Audrey Doerr. Did 6 you know who Audrey Doerr was? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: She was the Regional Director. 9 A: At one (1) time. 10 Q: At one (1) -- at that time. And to 11 Doug Forbes. And Doug Forbes was, at that time, in the 12 Region, am I correct? 13 A: Associate. 14 Q: Yeah. And what I want to -- what I 15 want to -- to focus on, Chief, is here is a situation 16 which has been brewing and bubbling from 1942 with one 17 (1) date, 1945 return the lands. 1991, a position before 18 the Standing Committee. 1992, a second position before 19 the Standing Committee. 1993, occupation of the lands. 20 And within thirty (30) days, there is 21 Graham Swan writing -- the Deputy Minister of DND has 22 written to Tom Bressette indicating his department 23 willingness to begin negotiations. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Would you agree with me that the
391 occupation of the range was most probably the triggering 2 factor in the beginning of these negotiations? 3 A: I think the triggering factor was 4 going on all along since the lands were taken. 5 Q: And just by coincidence it came 6 together around the time of -- the occupation? 7 A: Well, there -- there was discussions 8 about a Court Proceedings and several things going on, I 9 guess, and whatever mind-set people want to take it, they 10 can say that. I -- I sort of look at it like when I had 11 the dialogue with Mr. Chretien about returning those 12 lands and his commitment to do so and shutting that down. 13 That all coincided roughly around the same 14 time. So, if you feel it went that way because of that 15 or if somebody else feels it went that way because of 16 those political meetings, I guess that's up for -- up for 17 someone's debate. 18 Q: I don't propose to turn it into a 19 debate, Chief. I just wanted to establish something 20 matter of fact. So one (1) fact we know is that there 21 was the occupation of the range and the other fact is 22 that within thirty (30) days of the operation of the 23 range there are efforts to begin negotiations. 24 Those two (2) are facts which we can't 25 argue it now; agree with me?
401 A: Well, I think when Bonni Bressette 2 was Chief, she told them, We're going to ask you to 3 return that land and we're not going to take no for an 4 answer. We tried to work with you and that fell apart. 5 So you can be sure we're going to proceed and pursue the 6 return of these lands. 7 And I think that was something that 8 triggered their understanding that the Band was quite 9 frustrated at rejection of DND when they tried to work a 10 cooperative arrangement out with them. And it was put on 11 the record at that time that was our position, and it's 12 remained our position every since she made that statement 13 to them. 14 Q: Yes. But with -- with that long 15 answer there are just two (2) facts. One (1) of them is 16 May the 6th there's an occupation, June the 4th they're 17 going to begin negotiations, in spite of the background. 18 You accept those two (2) as facts? 19 A: I -- I stated before, if that's the 20 opinion, that's a big debate that has to go on. And I'm 21 not going to answer -- 22 Q: I would leave that -- 23 A: -- provide you with an answer. 24 Q: I would leave that to the 25 Commissioner. It goes on further, speaking about you,
411 Tom Bressette, it says: 2 "He seems to feel that if the Band is 3 to split" -- if the Band is to split -- 4 "he wants the Georges as far away as 5 possible." 6 I'm going to forget the latter part of 7 that sentence. So, at that time, the prospect of a Band 8 split was -- had been under discussion; am I correct? 9 A: I think I dealt with this twice 10 already, and -- and I'm still going to say the same 11 thing. When I brought this back to the community, the 12 only one who was interested and said, I'm interested, was 13 Maynard T. George. 14 And -- and the discussion with Mr. -- Mr. 15 Graham Swan, it was the same thing, that Maynard T. 16 George wants to move up there, maybe you should let him 17 go if he wants to split from the Band. 18 Q: Thank you very much. And I take it 19 that in 1994 there was an election for Chief and Council 20 for the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony Point? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, that predated the Corbiere 23 Decision by approximately six (6) years. Is it correct 24 that only people who were ordinarily resident on IR 44 25 would then have been allowed to vote?
421 A: If that's what the Indian Act says, 2 that's what the Indian Act says. I think you -- you know 3 what the Indian Act says about voting elections. 4 Q: Chief, I'm not here to give evidence. 5 And what I know or don't know doesn't really matter. I 6 will step back a bit then. There was an election in 7 1992? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: When Ron George was elected to 10 Council? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there was a challenge because he 13 was not ordinarily resident at Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the challenge was successful? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I'm suggesting to you, sir, that 18 the same thing applied with the election of 1994. Now, 19 you were the Chief, you can either tell me yes or no? 20 A: If Corbiere wasn't in place, the only 21 people who really can answer that question with certainty 22 is the Department of Indian Affairs. I went by the 23 guidelines that were set down and we were told by the 24 Department of Indian Affairs. And that's been the case 25 ever since they made the Indian Act.
431 That's the only thing I'm trying to make 2 you understand. I don't make the rules. They're the 3 ones that set those rules. If they don't agree, and 4 people are elected they're removed, such as what happened 5 to Ron George. 6 We didn't agree with what happened with 7 Ron George but, you know, the Minister of Indian Affairs 8 made that ruling. We never removed Ron, it was the 9 Minister of Indian Affairs. 10 Q: That might very well be so, Chief 11 Bressette, but I'm suggesting to you that as Chief, you 12 would have known who would be entitled to vote in your 13 Band elections. 14 Am I wrong with that? 15 A: I told you, there's Indian voting 16 regulations that we're supposed to follow, and if we 17 don't -- and why does it seem like I'm not answering your 18 question when I say that? 19 Q: Mr. George, sorry, Chief -- Chief 20 Bressette, with the election of 1994, members of your 21 Band who resided at other reserves, they would not be 22 able to vote, would they? 23 A: According to the Indian Act, that's 24 what the rules are. They have to be ordinarily resident. 25 Q: I will take that as a no, they would
441 not. And the same would have applied to those 2 individuals who were ordinarily resident at Aazhoodena? 3 A: Well, if the Minister ruled that, 4 that's the Minister's ruling. 5 Q: Fine, I will take that as another no, 6 they were not allowed to vote. 7 So these people, through their own acts, 8 if they were -- disenfranchised, they could not vote in 9 the elections down at Kettle Point? 10 A: I go back to the Indian voting 11 regulations and maybe you should get a copy of them and 12 read them and it would answer your question solidly. 13 I'm sorry to have to respond this way, but 14 you know, I don't make these rules, I just have to live 15 by them and that's been the case of every Chief since 16 they made the Indian Act. 17 Q: And I take it it would be fair to say 18 that between May of 1993 when the -- the lands were 19 occupied up to around August of 1995, before the move 20 from the range into the barracks, were you trying to keep 21 informed as to what was happening at Aazhoodena? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I'm not -- I can't remember that, if
451 I was. 2 Q: Okay, fine. But sometime in the 3 summer of 1995, you had a substantial Band meeting at 4 which Carl George, as he then was, made certain 5 presentations. Do you recall that, Exhibit 43? The 6 general Band meeting of... 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: August 21st. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: ...August 1st, 1995. 9 THE WITNESS: I remember when Carl -- 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: Under Tab 29. 13 A: I remember when Carl came to the Band 14 meeting, yes. 15 Q: Yes. So by that time, isn't it -- 16 was -- wasn't it fairly clear that whatever was the 17 leadership structure at Aazhoodena it was beginning to 18 fall apart? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I would assume. 23 Q: So and around -- 24 A: That's all I can do, is assume. 25 Q: -- that time, by the way, there's
461 this individual, I think his name was French, Ron French? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Did you know Mr. French? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Did you know him quite well? 6 A: I knew him to be a councillor at the 7 Chippewas of the Thames First Nation near London, 8 Ontario. 9 Q: I think you're mixing up with Larry 10 French. 11 A: Oh? Ron French, yes, he worked -- I 12 didn't know him quite well. He just worked for the 13 Department of Indian Affairs and he came on one (1) or 14 two (2) occasions to the community. 15 But it's not like him and I were buddies 16 or anything. 17 Q: So, anyway, Mr. Ron French, he came 18 on really more than one (1) occasion to the community, am 19 I correct? 20 A: Probably more than once, yes. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: I believe he worked for Mr. Irwin, if 23 I'm not mistaken. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
471 Q: Mr. Commissioner, there is a document 2 that is being photocopied, and my apologies. 3 Chief Bressette, a document is being 4 photocopied and it's going to be presented to you. And 5 what it suggests is that Ron French attended at Kettle 6 Point on or about August 16, 1995. 7 And he had attended a meeting and you were 8 present along with councillors Steve Wolfe, Norm Shawnoo, 9 Gerald George, Bonni Bressette, and Bernard George. And 10 your negotiator/researcher Victor Gulevitch was also 11 present. 12 Do you remember that meeting? 13 A: Not -- not like it's yesterday or 14 anything. 15 Q: But -- whether -- but do you remember 16 it? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 18 if I might, we're photocopying these minutes. It's at 19 least -- almost ten (10) years ago, perhaps we can -- 20 once we get the minutes and Chief Bressette could take a 21 look at the minutes and then -- or this e-mail and 22 perhaps it might assist. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's do 24 that. I see they're coming in now. Just take a minute 25 and read this over, Chief Bressette.
481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this an 4 Inquiry document? 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: It was a part of 6 Document Number -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 90002. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Two (2). 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's part of 10 that? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: There's a bundle of 12 documents put in under that number. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 THE WITNESS: I read this and I believe 18 this occurred after this Band meeting, if I'm not 19 mistaken. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 22 Q: That is true. That is true. The 23 Band meeting was -- 24 A: And -- 25 Q: -- I think, on the 1st of August.
491 A: And these obviously were Mr. French's 2 observations. 3 Q: Yes. I agree with that too. As a 4 matter of fact, I've not even asked the question yet. 5 Now, the point I want to draw to your attention here, 6 Chief, is that you've got an occupation on May the 3rd 7 and within thirty (30) days DND are ready to start 8 negotiations. 9 This situation is ramped up and at the end 10 of July the occupation moves from the range to the 11 barracks. And the fact is, following that occupation Mr. 12 Ron French, the Minister's assistant, shows up, and 13 without going into the details, he apparently meets with 14 DND. 15 At least, he represents a DND position, an 16 Indian Affairs' position, the Kettle Point Council and 17 community members' position, the position of the 18 occupants, this reference to the media, and then he comes 19 down and he says at the end: 20 "I feel this situation should be dealt 21 with as two (2) separate issues as 22 follows: 1) Negotiations with DND must 23 proceed as soon as possible. 24 Frustration is high with the community 25 members, Chief and Council and the
501 occupants. This issue could escalate 2 if movement is not perceived in the 3 near future." 4 Would you agree that that's a fair 5 characterization of the situation as it existed in the 6 middle of August, 1995? 7 A: Sadly it's the same situation that 8 exists today. 9 Q: You know, I am so sorry you raised 10 that because that was going to be my wrap-up. 11 A: No, that's fine. 12 Q: Anyway, so -- so you agree with it 13 then? 14 A: Well, you know, these negotiations 15 have been started and they still carry on today. The 16 same tactics are being used. So, and -- and we're still 17 dealing with the government. 18 And, I don't know, maybe you have the 19 solution for everybody. But I think, you know, we're 20 getting into negotiation areas. When I go in that 21 direction, I don't want to. 22 Q: Chief, I do not want to take you into 23 negotiation areas. 24 A: I'm just saying the situation is the 25 same today --
511 Q: Yeah. 2 A: -- you're raising. 3 Q: Yeah, but you see, Chief, if had just 4 answered my question with a "yes" or a "no", we would be 5 moving on. You see, what I'm saying to you is, this -- 6 this -- this position, as represented in this document 7 from D. Hill to Audrey Doerr and to Forbes as posted that 8 day, with respect to the meeting -- the meeting, it says 9 the Government is saying they've got two (2) separate 10 issues, one (1) of them, negotiations must proceed. 11 Do you agree with that, that -- that was a 12 proper characterization in 1995, August? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the other one is: 15 "The wedge within the community must be 16 addressed -- must be addressed. If 17 some movement were to occur, then the 18 Chief and council would be in a better 19 position to address the dissidents." 20 Whatever wedge there was and the reason 21 for the wedge, I don't want to get into, but there were 22 two (2) issues, number 1, negotiations and number 2, any 23 -- any difference between the two (2) groups. 24 A: So, you want me to say yes or no? 25 Q: I accept that as your answer.
521 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 2 put the statement, Mr. Ross, you didn't ask a question, 3 so the question -- I think you should ask it and get an 4 answer. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: The records would 6 show, Mr. Commissioner, that I asked him about the 7 situation back in 1995. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 9 want you to go over all of that, just on this very last 10 question you said there were two (2) points. You read 11 them and you left it at that. He didn't offer an answer 12 because I don't think you asked a question. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Fine. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The two -- 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Chief -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the two 17 (2) items that you read, the two (2) points. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 20 Q: Chief Bressette, I understand that 21 you agree with the first point -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 25 Q: -- that negotiations must proceed as
531 soon as possible? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there's a second point that was 4 made in this document that the wedge within the community 5 must be addressed. 6 Would you agree that that was also a 7 situation which existed in 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: Now, the next big item is that we had 13 a police killing on September the 6th, 1995 and within a 14 week of that, September the 13th, an MOU was signed. 15 The Minister, himself, appeared in the 16 community; correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So, as we look at the three (3) major 19 moves: Number 1, occupy the range, DND is going to be 20 ready to start negotiations. Number 2, move to the 21 barracks. The Minister's representative shows up and 22 identifies and properly defines the problems. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Number 3, somebody is killed and the 25 Minister shows up. Did you -- I recall seeing him in his
541 buckskin jacket with the tassels, but he shows up and 2 within one (1) week, you've got an MOU signed -- the 13th 3 of September, 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yeah. And as far as the MOU is 6 concerned, your evidence yesterday was that you felt that 7 it was really forced upon you, you didn't have time to 8 really think it through? 9 A: Well, yes, we were -- we -- it missed 10 our statement of principles that we had -- had drafted as 11 a result of those band meetings and it was really a, I 12 guess, a very stressful, very volatile situation that 13 existed at the time and I -- I thought I made it quite 14 clear yesterday I -- I -- my own personal feeling. That 15 was my own personal feeling that we shouldn't have done 16 it at that time because of the situation that we were in. 17 Q: Very, very good. So, as far as -- as 18 far as the -- the political situation as between the two 19 (2) communities something which started going awry back 20 around 1942/1945, is now crystalized as the two (2) 21 problems -- the two (2) issues that we just addressed? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And during that time the actions of 24 some of the members, who appear on your Band list, has 25 created a sense of division, a problem within the
551 community to be addressed; the wedge? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And I take it that this bad 4 situation further escalated when people moved into the 5 Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yeah. And there was some reference, 8 you made reference from time to time about the OPP asking 9 you what to do and you indicating to them it was not 10 within your jurisdiction? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Would you agree with me that at that 13 time the jurisdiction, the land -- the lands on which 14 your jurisdiction applied would have been the Kettle 15 Point Reserve? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yeah. With a hope that some day the 18 Stoney Point lands will be returned? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: But at that point the Stoney Point 21 lands, until now, have not yet been properly returned? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But you took a position that the 24 occupation of the Park was wrong? 25 A: Yes.
561 Q: And you made it clear to the OPP that 2 you thought the occupation of the Park was wrong? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So on Monday the Park is occupied and 5 from the evidence so far is appears as though it was not 6 a real surprise, but in your view it was wrong. 7 Did you take it back to Council? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was it the general view of 10 Council that the occupation of the Park was wrong? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So that in your conversations with 13 the OPP where you cited -- where you indicated that they 14 should not use kid gloves and they should get those 15 people out of the Park, that was your position and the 16 position of your Council? 17 A: Well, I made a statement about that 18 and -- and I tried to clarify that in -- you know, you 19 can read what I said. 20 Q: But, if you don't mind, sir, I would 21 like to ask you some questions. 22 A: I'll repeat the same thing if you 23 want me to. I'll say what I said yesterday. 24 Q: Fine. Well, we -- we know what's on 25 your statement.
571 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And what I want to show you, 3 sir, is, here are you, you are the Chief, and you've got 4 your Council. The occupation happens on a Monday. The 5 police killing is Wednesday night. 6 And between Monday and Wednesday you're in 7 conversation with the OPP from time to time and 8 expressing the position that these people should be out 9 of the Park? 10 A: This occupation didn't just start 11 then. It was an ongoing process -- 12 Q: Absolutely. 13 A: -- that Maynard initiated. And I 14 think the reason for making this statement, I tried to 15 make clear. But I don't -- I know you just want me to 16 say yes or no, so I'm not sure how to deal with it. 17 Q: Well, that's all right. We've got 18 your statement. But I'm saying that the crux of it is 19 that you felt that something should be done to get these 20 people out of the Park. You did not say out of the 21 barracks or off the range -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- out of the Park. Correct? 24 A: Well, that's where the concern was 25 all boiling up to, and it wasn't just my concern.
581 Q: But this was communicated by you to 2 the OPP? 3 A: Well, what -- what was occurring, if 4 you want -- if you want an explanation -- 5 Q: No, I don't want an explanation, 6 Chief. If you don't mind, I would just like an answer. 7 A: Well, I'm trying to give you an 8 answer but you just want me to say yes or no. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 10 asked the question, you have to give him a chance to 11 answer it the way he wants to answer it. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's correct. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 16 Q: So, Chief, on the 4th of September, 17 1995, you were in contact with the OPP -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- about the occupation of the Park; 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. And -- 22 Q: And you -- 23 A: -- I'm going to answer you because 24 you want -- you're asking a specific question. I was 25 tired of being called continuously by the OPP over this
591 matter, asking me what to do, what's the situation, 2 bothering me repeatedly. They should have went to court 3 and resolved the matter instead of keep -- having it come 4 back and come back. 5 That's what I was -- that's -- that's the 6 frustration I was beginning to feel by receiving all of 7 these -- these comments and I -- I didn't want to be 8 involved in it and I told him, It's your jurisdiction. 9 Why bring it to me? 10 But, I didn't like to be bothered or 11 called early in the morning and put this right to my face 12 and right off the bat it was always, you know, We need to 13 know what's happening. 14 And I told him repeatedly I was not in 15 connection with the people there. I was not speaking for 16 them, they wouldn't talk to me. How -- how much more 17 clear could I make it. It was becoming frustrating that, 18 you know, everybody seems to be trying to download all 19 these events onto me when I kept telling them I had 20 nothing to do with it. I didn't support it. 21 Q: Thank you. But I think you would 22 agree with me that in all probability, whatever responses 23 you gave to the OPP on Monday the 4th, Tuesday the 5th or 24 Wednesday the 6th, would have been passed up the line to 25 senior people?
601 A: You know, I've -- I've tried to 2 characterize this the way it's -- it was becoming 3 frustrating the way they kept calling me and nobody's 4 even checking to see how many other calls they were 5 getting from the other people around, all the other 6 concerned mayors and people in the area, it's all -- you 7 guys are always trying to focus this just on me and say, 8 It's your fault. Well, I don't accept that. 9 Q: Frankly, I think they were trying to 10 use you, but that's off the record, I hope. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unfortunately 12 nothing's off the record. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 15 Q: In any event, Chief, it seems clear 16 that the position which you took was that the OPP should 17 move to get the people out of the Park. 18 A: Again, how many other people took 19 that position and why is -- why is -- 20 Q: I going to get -- I'm going to get to 21 some others, I promise you. 22 A: No, no, no. Why -- why is just me? 23 Q: Because -- 24 A: I need to know that because you seem 25 to focus that it was my direction, I had something to do
611 and there were a lot more people calling the OPP and 2 government about this matter. Don't just say it was only 3 me. I don't know how many of my band members called them 4 or anything. 5 Q: Okay. Well, would it be fair, then, 6 to say that you, along with many other people, advocated 7 getting the Occupants out of the Park? 8 A: You know, here you are again, you're 9 another legal person trying to say, You should have done 10 something, again. Why didn't they go to the courts and 11 deal with this matter and this wouldn't have happened? 12 Q: I hear you and you see, I will tell 13 you, Chief, the difficulty I'm having is, as I review the 14 transcripts and as I listen to the telephone calls 15 between yourself and the OPP, it appears clear to me that 16 in speaking to the OPP, they would conclude they had your 17 support to do whatever was necessary to get the people 18 out of the Park. That's what I'm going to suggest to you 19 from the listening to the tapes. 20 A: Again, repeatedly -- 21 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect, 22 sir -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 24 Henderson? 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: That question is
621 not fair. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not a fair 3 question? 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The phrase, 5 "whatever is necessary"? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Come on. The 8 Chief has testified yesterday and again yesterday and 9 he's being asked again this morning, what he thought the 10 OPP should have done -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- and what level 13 of control he thought he had over a situation which 14 neither he nor council created. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He certainly did 17 not say to anyone -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- do whatever. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's -- 21 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And to -- to 22 phrase it in those terms I think is unfair to the Witness 23 and I think it's unfair to you, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 25 that's absolutely correct. He didn't say, do whatever --
631 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No intention to be 2 either unfair to you or the Witness. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 4 understand. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And further, what the 6 Chief said is on tape -- you heard it -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- and it's 9 transcribed. You can read it. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And you can draw your 12 own conclusions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fair. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: So, any -- so, 15 there'll be no -- no upside to me trying to be unfair 16 when there's an unimpeachable record. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 19 Q: Anyway, Chief, we've got your 20 position on tape so that, would it be fair to say that 21 now, in the year 2005, the situation with respect to the 22 -- the wedge, the friction between different groups, who 23 appear on your Band list, is something which could have 24 been addressed back in 1991, if the government had moved 25 to try to, (a) crystallize and identify the problems as
641 they did in 1995, and move to its solution? 2 A: They could have been crystallized in 3 1945. 4 Q: Thank you. And as far as -- okay 5 fine, they could have been crystallized. 6 Now, Chief, what I was trying -- the 7 reason why I wanted to get to be clear on your position 8 with respect to the occupants, which we will have to read 9 from the transcript, is because it appears to me that 10 your position was the same as Mike Harris, Get them out 11 of the Park. 12 Now you didn't use the language that he 13 did, but wasn't it the same? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he is 15 alleged to have said, yes. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Is alleged to have 17 said. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 19 an important distinction. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Absolutely. 21 THE WITNESS: The other day, I tried to 22 make it clear and its on the record, like you say, there 23 was an occupation of our Band administration buildings. 24 We got a Court injunction and we moved people off and it 25 didn't involve violence.
651 So why do you keep trying to paint me as 2 someone who wanted violence? I don't understand you. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you very much, 4 Chief. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Ross. 7 I think this would be a good point to take 8 a morning break. 9 The next person is Mr. Horton. You'd made 10 an estimate of ten (10) to fifteen (15) minutes. Is that 11 still accurate? 12 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: It should be. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 14 take a break and then come back with you. Thank you very 15 much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 17 for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 10:21 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 10:35 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Horton...?
661 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HORTON: 2 Q: Chief Bressette, as you know, I'm 3 Bill Horton and I represent the Chiefs of Ontario. All 4 my questions are going to relate to Exhibit 249, if you 5 have that in front of you, sir? The -- the transcripts 6 of the tape recordings. 7 Exhibit -- I'm sorry, I should have 8 arranged this before the break. The registrar is going 9 to assist you with that. 10 A: Thank you. 11 Q: And the topic of all my questions is 12 your communications with the OPP and with Inspector 13 Carson in particular. 14 Now, the tapes start with a telephone 15 conversation where Inspector Carson called you around 16 8:10 a.m. on the morning of September 5; do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I assume that you were not 19 expecting this call, in the sense that it hadn't been 20 pre-arranged that he would call? 21 A: No, I wasn't. 22 Q: And if I take you down just about two 23 thirds (2/3) of the way down the page, where Inspector 24 Carson is talking to you about the people occupying the 25 Park, and the last three (3) lines there he says to you:
671 "As far as we are concerned, it is my 2 understanding there is no land claim 3 issue with Ipperwash Park; is that fair 4 to say from the Band's point of view?" 5 And then you reply: 6 "Well, not -- not right now, no." 7 Do you see that in the transcript? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you have any advance notice that 10 you would be asked about the position of the Band with 11 respect to any land claim on the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And at the time of this telephone 14 conversation, sir, did you know that the call was being 15 tape-recorded? 16 A: No. I -- I was told by the OPP that 17 they wanted to make sure things didn't get out of hand 18 and if they felt things needed to be made known publicly, 19 I should feel free to call them because there would never 20 be any -- any discussion about that. 21 And, I mean, that's basically what I was 22 told, that they just wanted to make sure we didn't bump 23 heads unnecessarily over issues where bad information was 24 flowing. And they -- they wanted clear communication so 25 that if we were supporting something, maybe it could be
681 worked out before it got into confrontations. 2 Q: So it was your understanding you were 3 encouraged to talk to the OPP on the basis that it would 4 be confidential; is that what you're saying? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And you didn't understand 7 that any of these particular conversations were being 8 tape-recorded at the time? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Now then, if I take you 11 to page 2, sir, the last long quote from Inspector 12 Carson, where it starts: 13 "Well, we're trying to address that 14 now." 15 And then we just go down about five (5) 16 lines -- four (4) lines, and he says: 17 "But at this point we are going to -- 18 MNR is going to go before the Court to 19 get an injunction and we'll deal with 20 it that way." 21 And that's what led to your understanding 22 that it was going to be dealt with through a Court 23 process first? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then, dropping down a little bit
691 on the page, he says: 2 "What I would like to avoid, if I can, 3 is some sense that we're going to be 4 heavy-handed." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And he goes on to say: 7 "We're going to try and control the 8 access to the Park in the short term 9 and they're going to have the 10 opportunity to leave, but they are 11 going to be dealt with as trespassers." 12 Did that leave you with the understanding 13 that the situation was not going to be escalated by the 14 OPP through the use of violent measures except through an 15 orderly process initiated with the Court? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And one (1) of the parts I skipped in 18 this quote, Inspector Carson said to you: 19 "So is there any chance that you could 20 call your councillors together and kind 21 of brief them on that from basically 22 what I've told you?" 23 Were you being encouraged by Inspector 24 Carson to tell other people that this was the approach 25 the OPP was going to take?
701 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you do that? 3 A: I believe I did. 4 Q: All right. And between the time that 5 Inspector Carson told you that this was the approach that 6 was going to be taken and the time that you heard about 7 the -- the TRU marching on the Park in the middle of the 8 night with heavy weapons, had you been advised by the OPP 9 or Inspector Carson that the approach had changed? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And if I can take you to page 4 of 12 those notes, and this is in the same conversation, the 13 second quote from Inspector Carson where he says: 14 "Well, we had the same information." 15 Here, he's talking about the fact that the 16 OPP had also known that the Park was going to be occupied 17 some time earlier and he goes on to say: 18 "So, it's really not a major surprise, 19 quite frankly, unfortunately, anyway, 20 we'll try to deal with it the best we 21 can." 22 And then he says: 23 "And like I say, I like to keep the 24 communication open." 25 Do you -- do you see where he said that?
711 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you recall him saying that to 3 you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And by him saying that, did you 6 understand that he was assuring you that he would keep 7 you in the loop with respect to what the OPP was doing? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you understand that he was 10 doing that because he knew how important it was to you as 11 a leader of the community not to be blind sided -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- by extreme action that the OPP 14 might take? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in the end of the day, were you 17 blind sided by the action that the OPP took? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And we have seen many references to 20 the very serious and uncomfortable position that that 21 puts you in as a leader of the community; is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: Now, I want to take you to page 8 of 25 these transcript notes. This is actually a conversation
721 between you and Inspector Carson that took place at 2 apparently 12:40 a.m. and I would assume that's on the 3 morning of September the 7th, although this is not what 4 the note says. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It is -- well, if I 6 could just clarify that again. It -- it -- the -- 7 September 7th is -- it starts September 6th because 8 that's when the logger tape starts at 1950 hours -- 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Okay. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and then it -- I 11 mean it -- and then it -- it is at 12:40 the next day and 12 I should have made it clear when we did the transcript. 13 It is on September 7th. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. WILLIAM HORTON: 16 Q: All right. And then this is 17 apparently the first conversation you had with Mr. Carson 18 directly after the shooting death of Dudley George; is 19 that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I'll -- I'll take you down near 22 the bottom of the page where Inspector Carson says to 23 you: 24 "It's not a problem, Tom, it will be 25 handled. It's not a problem, okay?"
731 And then you say: 2 "Well, why isn't this being done in the 3 daylight, John?" 4 And he says to you: 5 "Tom, I don't think this is the time to 6 debate this." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And is it fair to say that he did 10 not, in fact, offer you an explanation as to why it was 11 not being done in the daylight? 12 A: That's right, he never told me 13 anything why he undertook a night time operation. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: The other problem was that it -- they 16 didn't even go to court yet and he said they were going 17 to court to get a court injunction. 18 Q: Right. So, in fact, the situation 19 you were left in is that you had understood and you had 20 communicated to others that there was going to be a court 21 process before the matter was escalated and exactly the 22 opposite happened. 23 It escalated as a result of the police 24 action before they went to court; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
741 Q: And -- and that's where we see a lot 2 of references in these tapes to your saying that you were 3 put in a very difficult position? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And coming back to the quote I just 6 read where you asked him to explain why it was not being 7 done in the daylight and he replies: 8 "Tom, I don't think this is the time to 9 debate this." 10 Now, Chief Bressette, now that you know 11 that these conversations were being recorded at the 12 time -- 13 A: Yes? 14 Q: -- something that you did not know at 15 the time -- and Mr. Carson clearly did know at the time 16 that these conversations were taking place -- how do you 17 feel about that? 18 A: Well, I feel like, you know, somebody 19 violated my -- my trust in -- in the process that they 20 were going to be dealing with our people so nobody would 21 get hurt. And, you know, they -- they created a 22 situation, to me, that I -- I really don't have a lot of 23 trust in -- in communications with the police anymore. 24 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Those are 25 my questions.
751 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. 3 I think Mr. Eyolfson...? 4 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Good morning, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: 10 Q: Good morning, Chief Bressette. 11 A: Good morning. 12 Q: My name is Brian Eyolfson. I'm one 13 of the lawyers for Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto, 14 and I have a few questions for you this morning. Just to 15 let you know where I'm going, I just have a couple of 16 questions to follow up on your evidence in-chief about 17 the media -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- and then I have a few questions 20 about policing issues. 21 On more than one (1) occasion in your 22 evidence in-chief you commented on media coverage? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at one point you stated to the 25 effect that the news media began to fuel or cause
761 dissension in the community? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And could you clarify what you meant 4 by that? 5 A: Well, it's like they were trying to 6 escalate a problem internally within our community to -- 7 to use a snippet of a discussion with myself during an 8 interview and make it look like we were saying bad things 9 about other people. 10 And -- and out of a whole conversation 11 they basically take a -- a couple of sentences or they'll 12 highlight something that they feel is a comment and that 13 comment basically doesn't cover the -- the interview 14 process in general. It takes it away to try to 15 sensationalise a matter and create questions in people's 16 minds and speculate on what was actually being discussed. 17 Q: Okay. And you feel that this led to 18 dissension within your community, the Aboriginal 19 community? 20 A: Yes. And in -- in a Band meeting it 21 was pointed out to me that -- and all the people in 22 attendance there to be careful of what they read in the 23 media. And that's when it first came to light that, you 24 know, and to the community that the media was somehow 25 taking only snippets of a statement and putting it in the
771 paper and not even dealing with -- with the questions 2 that they were asking. 3 But I don't know whether it's the people 4 who write the story or the editor who -- and -- and I 5 guess my feeling was it was an attempt to try and 6 sensationalise or generate a -- a feeling that there was 7 something going to happen so the readers would continue 8 to follow their -- their paper. 9 Q: Okay. And in your view did the media 10 coverage also cause any dissension between the Native and 11 non-Native communities? 12 A: I believe so. 13 Q: And do you -- do you have any 14 concerns about the way the Aboriginal community and its 15 members in particular are portrayed by the media? 16 A: Well, yes. 17 Q: Could you provide some examples of 18 your concerns? 19 A: Well, if somebody -- and -- and I've 20 heard this regularly and repeatedly over radio stations 21 at times, that if a Native person gets charged with 22 something, it's like every ten (10) or -- ten (10) 23 minutes or fifteen (15) minutes, whatever the intervals, 24 they go to a news break and it always mentions this. 25 And you hear it, like, three (3) days on
781 end. And when it happens to non-Natives you don't hear 2 their name being mentioned repeatedly, that they're a 3 member of some First Nation community. 4 And, you know, it just seems to be when 5 it's our people. And -- and I guess when you look at the 6 -- the coverage over what -- what they would allege to be 7 non-accountability in dealing with our finances, one (1) 8 Band gets found, you know, that they're in debt so much. 9 And it sort of tries to give the impression that we're 10 all mismanaged badly and that we don't account to our 11 people the way monies are spent or anything. 12 And it -- it just fuels that kind of thing 13 and creates problems internally, where you'll have people 14 saying, I want a forensic audit. And anybody knows who 15 looks at the cost of those things, they escalate around 16 three (3) to four hundred thousand dollars ($400,000) to 17 complete an audit, when there may not even be anything 18 wrong with the Band expenses. It's resources that are 19 wasted. 20 And, you know, the damage control that 21 people have to do with these bad news stories to try and 22 get people to understand the truth is -- it's quite time 23 consuming, because the way that the paper reports on 24 things that -- types of -- generalize that we're all in 25 the same kind of bad predicament.
791 And I believe that also leads to the 2 feeling that we can't be trusted. It's unsafe to go into 3 our communities after dark, and don't ever go out to a 4 native community in the evening hours and that kind of 5 mentality starts to flirt with people's minds in a non- 6 native community. 7 So, you know, this has far reaching 8 effects the way it's presented. 9 Q: Okay, thank you. Now you've 10 indicated that Inspector Carson from the OPP called you 11 quite regularly, I believe -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- prior to the events on September 14 6th, 1995, and I'm just wondering if you can clarify when 15 this was? I mean, we know from the transcripts -- 16 A: I -- I wish I had the dates. I can 17 only go by with what's been presented, because he stopped 18 by the office. He would come by the office and stop and 19 say, can I speak to you for a minute and -- and ask me 20 things, and I never had any answers for the kind of 21 issues he did, because like, I got frustrated a while 22 back because I was always being asked questions by them 23 as if I had knowledge and I didn't have knowledge about 24 what they were dealing with. 25 Q: Okay, just to clarify in terms of
801 timing, I understand and it's clear from the transcript 2 Mr. Horton just referred to, that you did have 3 conversations during the time people were occupying the 4 Park, but can you indicate whether or not you also had 5 conversations in the weeks leading up to the occupation? 6 For example, in August of 1995, with 7 representatives of the OPP such as Inspector Carson? 8 A: All through 1990, when the range was 9 occupied, there were periodic calls from them and when 10 they moved into the base. But when they went into the 11 base, they said they weren't concerned with that, because 12 that was in the federal jurisdiction and it was being 13 dealt with through the government and there was no 14 concern coming from the federal government about that. 15 It was, I guess, specially got escalated 16 when -- when it involved the Ipperwash Park, because they 17 assumed that to be provincial jurisdiction and that's 18 something that they were supposed to be, I guess, 19 responsible for. 20 Q: Okay, and just to clarify as well, in 21 terms of what you were asked. I believe you asked -- 22 there were questions that you had difficulty answering, 23 and could you just provide examples of what sorts of 24 things you were asked about? 25 A: Well, did they have weapons, did you
811 see this, did you see that? I never seen any of those 2 things and I made it quite clear, I didn't go down there 3 regular and are you aware of any communication about 4 going into the Park, this and that. 5 I didn't know about anything like that and 6 I tried to make that very clear. 7 Q: Okay. Did they ask you any questions 8 such as -- concerning who may have been in -- in the 9 area, in the Park or? 10 A: Well they asked me all kind of 11 questions and I -- like I told them, like I'm telling 12 you, I didn't know the answers, so it was just -- I just 13 got annoyed about it. 14 It seemed like it was always coming to me 15 to respond and I had never had any knowledge of anything 16 that was going on and I was always being asked as if 17 someone was running in telling me every so often. 18 Q: So, is it fair to say they were 19 primarily seeking information from you about -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now, on the night of September 22 6th, 1995, you spoke about being stopped by the police on 23 more than one (1) occasion. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: At one point you mentioned seeing red
821 dots or lights -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- on you? Yes? What did you think 4 those were at the time? 5 A: I knew what they were. 6 Q: And what were they? 7 A: They were gun sights. 8 Q: Okay. And you also spoke about 9 having a gun or guns pointed at you on more than one 10 occasion that night. 11 A: Shotgun. 12 Q: Okay. And were you surprised by 13 that, having the gun or guns pointed at you? 14 A: I certainly was. I didn't expect to 15 be stopped on the road and run into that kind of thing. 16 Q: And did you have concerns for your 17 safety? And I wonder if you had concerns in particular, 18 as an aboriginal person, that night? 19 A: I had more concern for Gerald who was 20 driving the vehicle I was in at the time. I had military 21 training and part of that is guns are pointed at you when 22 they -- when they simulate combat activity when they 23 capture people, how to disarm someone, all of those types 24 of things. 25 I -- I was privy to training to dealing
831 with that, riot controls and, you know, I knew what they 2 were doing and I knew if a sudden move came, somebody was 3 liable to -- to pull a trigger, especially if your hands 4 are supposed to be and you went to reach down, you never 5 know what could happen in that situation. I mean, that - 6 - that's what -- what I was more afraid of. 7 Q: Okay. Now, you also mentioned that 8 there were four (4) OPP officers who were members of -- 9 from your community? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes, okay. And you indicated that 12 they weren't used in -- in terms of the events leading up 13 to the night of September 6th, 1995? 14 A: Well, that's right. I felt that, you 15 know, if they needed to deal with people it probably 16 would have been more appropriate if our own people dealt 17 with our people than people from outside the area because 18 they would -- they would know the people they were 19 talking to and probably could deal with the situation 20 because they wouldn't have the -- the fear that someone 21 was going to shoot them or whatever, whatever those 22 police officers had in their minds that night. 23 I don't know, but I know our people know 24 our people and I don't think that would have happened. 25 Q: Okay. And, in addition at the time,
841 there were also Kettle and Stoney Point First Nations 2 police officers; correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And they were also not 5 involved in the events leading up to the night of 6 September 6th, 1995? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And do you believe that they could 9 have assisted in some way as well? 10 A: I believe they -- I believe they 11 could have, but I don't think they were ever told 12 anything about what went on and I guess I objected 13 because they -- they didn't try to bring them on the 14 scene until after they had done what they did and then 15 they tried to bring them and I don't know whether that 16 was cosmetics, trying to portray that police -- native 17 police officers -- were involved. 18 But it was extremely frustrating for them 19 to order our police onto the road when -- when they 20 totally ignored them and everything that was going on. 21 They were never kept apprised of what was happening. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it from your 23 evidence that you never received any request to have the 24 Kettle and Stoney Point First Nations police officers 25 assist in any way, prior to the confrontation on the
851 night of September 6th? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And when you were speaking about the 4 Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation police not being 5 involved, you indicated yesterday that you didn't think 6 your people were trusted; is that correct? 7 A: Well, that's -- that's kind of what I 8 felt. There was the division that occurred. Probably 9 they wouldn't have wanted our police officers there, I -- 10 I don't know. They never asked for them. 11 Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated 12 that you still don't feel you are trusted? 13 A: That's right. That's what this whole 14 circumstance has brought about. 15 Q: And, why is it, do you think, that 16 the First Nations police officers weren't trusted? 17 A: Well, within the ranks of the -- the 18 OPP, they weren't OPP, and I guess they probably felt 19 they would tip off or leak information. I don't know, 20 but it -- it's pretty clear that by not involving them in 21 their meetings about what they were going to do or even 22 discussing this process to acquire a court injunction, 23 whatever they were going to do they weren't told about 24 any of that business. 25 Q: Okay, thank you. And, after
861 September 6, 1995, were there or have there been, any 2 other incidents or events that, in your view, have also 3 had a negative effect on the relationship between members 4 of your community and the police? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 6 I'm not sure what the relevance of that is at this point. 7 Ms. Tuck-Jackson, perhaps I should let 8 you -- 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr. 10 Commissioner, you've actually anticipated my objection -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay, 12 that's fine. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- is that it 14 falls beyond the scope of -- of your mandate, in my 15 respectful view. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 17 so. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: I'll just move on to 23 my next question. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have 25 another question? You indicated you had two (2) areas.
871 I thought you had exhausted them. No? 2 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: I still have a few 3 questions related to policing. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With respect 5 to -- 6 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Yeah. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: 9 Q: Now, Chief Bressette, I take it from 10 your evidence yesterday that you believe it is important 11 to have First Nations people involved in the policing of 12 First Nations people? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. You also stated yesterday to 15 the effect that, Our efforts to sensitize people have 16 virtually gone ignored. Can you explain a little bit 17 about what you meant by that statement? 18 A: Well, we try to have information 19 sessions and, you know, we -- we always send press 20 releases out when good things happen in our community, 21 but no one hardly ever see that appear in the news media. 22 I mean, we try to demonstrate that people 23 have accomplished something and we want to demonstrate 24 our ability to do projects such as when we brought the 25 school into the community, that was not done.
881 We -- we've done several things I guess in 2 terms of trying to educate people and running -- I guess, 3 attempted to do cultural and historical presentations, 4 and nobody shows up to those. So, you know, those aren't 5 covered by the media when we try to do that. 6 So that's -- tells the tale itself. 7 Q: Okay. Now, I just have one (1) more 8 final question. I understand that the policing at Kettle 9 Point changed around 1997, when a police agreement was 10 made involving Anishnaabek Police Services? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And did you view it as change 13 as an improvement from the previous policing arrangements 14 that existed? 15 A: Well, why we done that, the 16 Anishnaabek Police is a separate entity. It's a regional 17 police force that, you know, if we have problems in -- in 18 any particular one of the communities that belong to 19 that, a large number of Anishnaabek police officers will 20 come in. 21 As opposed to non-Native OPP or RCMP 22 officers, that basically know the culture and history of 23 the people they deal with. And it's apt to defer away 24 from any violent confrontations, that things might be 25 resolved in a more cohesive manner for the communities
891 that utilise the Anishnaabek Police Services. 2 Q: Thank you very much, Chief Bressette. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Mr. Eyolfson. The next person as indicated is 5 Ms. Freeborn for the -- the Government of Ontario. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: 15 Q: Good morning, Chief Bressette. 16 A: Good morning. 17 Q: My name is Susan Freeborn. I'm one 18 (1) of the Counsel for the Government of Ontario. And I 19 just had a couple of questions -- well, a couple of areas 20 of questions for you and just by way of clarification. 21 Yesterday there was an exhibit put to you, 22 it was Exhibit P-253, which is a letter to Premier 23 Harris. That's Document 1010726, which is at Tab 68 of 24 your binder there. And this letter is dated April 9th, 25 1996, and it's a letter to Premier Harris.
901 And yesterday you advised Mr. Millar, when 2 he was examining you, that this was a letter advising Mr. 3 Harris that the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation 4 intended to file a claim with respect to Ipperwash Park-- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- do you remember that? And Mr. 7 Millar had asked if a claim had been made and you had 8 responded, Yes -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- is that correct? Can you advise 11 if the Band commenced a formal Court action against the 12 Province with respect to -- to this claim? 13 A: We filed a claim, I believe, with the 14 Federal Government. 15 Q: So the claim was with the Federal 16 Government, not against the -- the province of Ontario? 17 A: Well, it involves the province. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: It ultimately impacts on -- on the 20 Provincial Government. 21 Q: But your claim was initiated against 22 the Federal Government. 23 A: I think due process it's registered 24 with us is we have a claim, we have to file it with the 25 Federal Government.
911 Q: Okay. And when was that filed? 2 A: I'm not sure of the exact date, but 3 we're awaiting a response at this time. 4 Q: From...? 5 A: From the Federal Government. We've 6 been assured our claim has been reviewed and we're just 7 waiting for them to give us a -- their findings on it and 8 they have to go through, I guess, reviews. But, you 9 know, we're getting into claims and I really don't want 10 to talk about -- 11 Q: No, and I don't either. I just 12 wanted to establish if the claim had been issued and -- 13 and against whom. That was my main point, so that's 14 fine, thank you. 15 The second area I had for you was -- was 16 in response to questions from Mr. Millar regarding a 17 document which is at Tab 23 of your binder, and that's 18 Document Number 1003168. 19 And that's the transcript of a conference 20 call with Robert Runciman, and I think yesterday we 21 established that the date was actually wrong on there, it 22 was September 8th, not June 8th, 1995 -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I just wanted to ask you a couple 25 of questions at -- with respect to page 3 of that
921 document. The very top of page 3 of that document. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it says there that this is -- 4 again, we think this is informal transcript of the 5 conversation, but you say: 6 " I feel an injunction is unnecessary 7 and dropping it from a helicopter is an 8 insult." 9 The Minister then says: 10 "The government shares -- " 11 I assume it's "your", 12 "-- concern and efforts are underway to 13 change that condition." 14 Now, I just -- and I think in your 15 testimony also, yesterday, you used the same words about 16 the -- the helicopter drop as being an insult. Am I 17 correct that -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Were you -- were you at the Court 20 proceeding when the -- this would be the Ministry of 21 Natural Resources that brought the injunction. 22 Were you at that proceeding? 23 A: I was in the middle of a community 24 that was very angry and the highways are on fire. I -- I 25 wouldn't leave the community to -- to go and look at
931 this, because, you know, in my mind they already damaged 2 whatever -- whatever process was there. 3 I don't think the -- they lived up to 4 their word and used proper means. 5 Q: Now, so we already know from the 6 transcripts of the conversation with John Carson that the 7 Province had already started the process for the 8 injunction on that September 5th, do you agree with that? 9 A: I don't know. It didn't occur as far 10 as I was concerned. 11 Q: Okay, do you have any information or 12 evidence that the Province actually asked to have the 13 injunction served in that manner? By that I mean, 14 dropping it from a helicopter? 15 A: I don't know, but what's the point in 16 getting an injunction if you're not going to serve it on 17 the people who you got it from and -- and the wind takes 18 it over their heads and into the trees, and it -- 19 Q: Well, I think I can tell you that the 20 Commission will hear evidence later in the Inquiry that, 21 in fact, neither the police nor the Province sought that 22 kind of order, in other words that it should be dropped 23 from the air. 24 And, as a matter of fact, the -- the 25 lawyers went back to Court to try to -- to get a variance
941 of that order, because they didn't think it was 2 appropriate, also. 3 A: But did they -- did they consider it 4 to do it that way? 5 Q: You -- I think the evidence will show 6 that it was not their choice to do that. And I think the 7 evidence will also show that, in fact, the injunction was 8 never served and the -- the materials were withdrawn. 9 Were you aware of that? 10 A: I don't know anything about that. 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, I 12 hear an argument here, but I don't hear a question. The 13 evidence is going to show certain things. That has 14 nothing to do with the Chief, he wasn't there. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 16 leading up -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He doesn't have 18 the document in front of him. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was 20 leading up to a question, the question's been asked and 21 answered. I think that's it, is it? 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: 24 Q: I just wanted to know if the Chief 25 knew whether or not the injunction actually had been
951 delivered in that manner? 2 A: I -- I said I -- as far as I'm 3 concerned, it never happened. I didn't see any evidence 4 there ever was. 5 MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: Okay. Thank you, 6 those are my questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. I think Ms. Tuck-Jackson is next on behalf of 9 the OPP. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 14 estimated an hour, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, is that still a 15 reasonable estimate? 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I think it is, 17 sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: Good morning, Mr. Commissioner. Good 24 morning, Chief Bressette, and I apologize for my voice. 25 As you may know, my name is Andrea Tuck-
961 Jackson and I'm going to be asking you questions this 2 morning on behalf of the OPP. 3 And if I can, sir, I'd like to begin with 4 the following observation, something that appears 5 certainly to resonate in your testimony over the past two 6 (2) days, was the importance of keeping open the lines of 7 communication with the police; is that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it also struck me, sir, that one 10 (1) of your goals as a leader -- or the leader, excuse me 11 -- of your territory was your desire to maintain a 12 peaceable environment? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I trust, sir, that one (1) of the 15 ways of doing that was to alert the police to any 16 activity or rumour of activity that, in your view, might 17 disrupt that sense of peace in the community? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And, again, in -- in fairness, to use 20 your own words, because I think it states that -- well, 21 if you can grab the transcript that so many of us have -- 22 have drawn to your attention, Exhibit P-249, it's in 23 front of you, sir, the transcript of the phone calls 24 between the 5th and the 7th? 25 And if I could take you, sir, to page 4 of
971 the transcript, you'll see at the last quarter of the 2 page that you actually indicate to then Inspector Carson: 3 "So, if I hear anything, John, I'll get 4 in touch with you." 5 And, again, I'm going to suggest to you 6 that is an indication of the type of relationship that 7 you had with the police at that time. 8 A: I've stated this before. I was 9 encouraged by Mr. Carson if I seen and heard anything, if 10 I called him, it would be better if we could deal with it 11 before it escalated and got into a problem because 12 misinformation on both sides. And he said, This will all 13 be off the record, don't worry about it. And that never 14 occurred. 15 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that 16 nowhere in the transcript of this call is there any 17 indication by Inspector Carson that it would be off the 18 record? 19 A: That's fine, but I was told that. 20 Q: Not during this call, though. 21 A: I was told that and if someone wants 22 to sort of say it never happened, Mr. Carson should be 23 the one to say it never happened because he and I had 24 that conversation. 25 And he came to my office on more than one
981 (1) occasion and it wasn't logged in here either. And 2 there were several discussions that occurred and I was 3 assured that that's the reason why he wanted to maintain 4 contact was to make sure nothing bad happened. 5 Q: And that was made very clear to you 6 by him? 7 A: That's what he told me. 8 Q: All right. And along the lines of 9 communicating information to the police, you'd agree with 10 me that you told, for example, Inspector Linton on the 11 5th of September that there was a rumour that the 12 cottages in the northeast corner of the Base were at 13 risk. 14 You're nodding your head up and down, so 15 I gather you're agreeing with me? 16 A: That's what the transcript says, what 17 do you -- if you want me to read it, I'll read it back to 18 you. 19 Q: I don't actually think that was in 20 the transcript, but you're agreeing with my suggestion, 21 so I'll move on. 22 And during the same conversation, sir, 23 you'd agree that you conveyed that there was a rumour 24 that the Pinery Park was at risk? 25 A: I believe that was not a rumour and,
991 in fact, it happened where somebody went and tacked a 2 sign up there twice saying, I'm gonna take this over. 3 Q: I understand -- 4 A: And it's not a rumour. So, it 5 happened. 6 Q: Fair enough. In any event, that was 7 something that you felt it was appropriate to alert the 8 police to? 9 A: Well, I just didn't want to see 10 problems being escalated that would impact on our 11 community and the area in general. 12 Q: Yes. And I anticipate we will hear 13 that was a view shared by Inspector Carson. You've also 14 told us that you had conveyed to Inspector Linton, at 15 some point prior to the occupation of the Park, that 16 again you'd heard a rumour or talk in the community that 17 the Park would be taken over at the end of the Labour Day 18 weekend? 19 A: I think Mr. Carson said he had the 20 same information. 21 Q: I don't disagree with that, sir. I'm 22 just trying to -- 23 A: Well, I'm just saying, you know, it 24 happened, it happened, it's in the transcripts, it was on 25 the tapes. I don't know why I have to keep answering the
1001 same things over and over again. I -- 2 Q: Well, I can assure you, sir that if - 3 - if Justice Linden feels that I'm doing anything 4 inappropriate, he will intervene or your Counsel will. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we've 6 said before that we don't want questions to be asked that 7 have already been asked, but I take it that you're 8 leading up -- 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I am, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to a 11 question that hasn't been asked? 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Correct, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And that's 14 the way lawyers sometimes do it. They go over areas that 15 have been asked to get to a place where they want to get 16 to that hasn't been asked. So we have to be patient 17 sometimes. Yes. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: You'd agree also, sir, that you 21 conveyed at least to Doug Smith in early August of 1995, 22 that you had heard a rumour or information about the 23 presence of an automatic weapon at the Base? 24 A: No, I said I heard rumours. 25 Q: Yes, that's what I think I just said,
1011 about the presence of an automatic weapon at the Base. 2 And, again, you're nodding your head up and down. 3 And I'm also going to suggest to you, sir, 4 along the same lines, back on August the 17th, 1993, so 5 two (2) years prior to this time frame, you conveyed to 6 Inspector Carson that you'd received information that 7 those same cottages at the north east corner of the base 8 might be burned down? 9 Does that ring a bell? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. Could we have Document 12 2002766 put up on the screen, please? I'm looking for 13 the second page, one more page over, there we go. And 14 I'll try and decipher the chicken scratch as best as I 15 can, Chief Bressette. 16 A: I don't read chicken scratch. 17 Q: There's a reference, phone call, 18 that's what 1021 I'm told means, with Tom Bressette: 19 "Natives considering to burn cottages 20 at Ipperwash. Tom advise info is a 21 rumour, but he has told the Stoney 22 Point warriors -- he was told," 23 excuse me, 24 "that the Stony Point warriors will 25 burn cottages possible in, or on,"
1021 excuse me, 2 "Outer Drive. Felt we should be aware, 3 unable to confirm info". 4 I trust, if the entry is in officer 5 Carson's notebook, which I can tell you is where this 6 chicken scratch originates, you wouldn't disagree that 7 you provided that information to him? 8 A: I don't know what to believe from the 9 OPP anymore. I think I -- I told you why I feel that 10 way. And I made a statement here that I'm not going to 11 agree with what somebody put in a book. I'm not going to 12 agree with it. 13 Q: Well, would you agree, sir, that 14 having regard -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 16 yes, Mr. Henderson...? 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In reading the 18 chicken scratch, Commissioner, I noticed My Friend 19 skipped over after Outer Drive, it seems to say "needs 20 comment of activists" and that was not read into the 21 record. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That wasn't for 23 any devious reason, I just didn't think it was relevant. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:
1031 Q: Let me put it to this way, Chief 2 Bressette. Having regard to the pattern of information 3 that you would provide to the police from time to time, 4 in the best interests of your community, would you not 5 agree that it's likely that this entry accurately 6 reflects information that you passed on? 7 And I'm not suggesting, sir, that you 8 vouched for its correctness, but you simply, in the 9 interests of your community, passed it on? 10 A: Like I said, if somebody wrote 11 something that they said I said, I'm not going to agree 12 to it not after what -- what occurred. 13 Q: All right. In response to a question 14 yesterday by My Friend Mr. Rosenthal, you indicated that 15 you did not feel that providing this information to the 16 OPP would in any way inflame the situation around the 17 occupation of the Park. 18 Do you recall giving that answer? 19 A: At that particular time when I was 20 asked about that, yes, I did. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: But after -- after I -- I think I 23 made it clear after what I've been through and the way 24 things are materializing here, I don't agree with 25 anything anymore that someone's going to say I said or I
1041 was purported to have said. 2 Q: What I was going to suggest to you, 3 sir, is that one (1) of the reasons back in 1995 that you 4 had no concerns that the information that you passed on 5 to the police would inflame the situation, was because 6 from your experience, the police took the information you 7 provided and gave it balanced and fair consideration. 8 Wouldn't that be fair? 9 A: Well, I said it before, I'm not going 10 to agree to anything that's been sort of brought up at 11 this point, because of my experience and the way this is 12 going. 13 Q: Sir, I'm -- I'm asking about your 14 mind-set in 1995 actually, not today. 15 A: Well, my mind-set back then and what 16 I'm going to say changed because of what happened since 17 then. 18 Q: But I'm asking you, sir, about your 19 mind-set in 1995. 20 A: I had a mind-set and I don't know 21 what the OPP mind-set was. I mean, the only reason I 22 feel that way, I -- I was particular interested in this 23 trial with this Kenneth Deane and it was kind of conveyed 24 by the Judge who heard that, that somebody lied about 25 information and I don't know what to believe any more.
1051 Not in this instance, so don't ask me 2 anything about that. I'm not going to agree. You can 3 suggest all you want, I'm not going to agree. 4 Q: In any event, you had no concerns 5 about providing this information as you did, in 1995, to 6 the police. 7 A: I'm not going to agree. 8 Q: So you did have concerns or you just 9 don't want to answer the question, sir? 10 A: I don't know how many times a person 11 can say once you lose somebody's belief or trust it's 12 gone and you can't get it back by trying to take them 13 back to a particular point in time. 14 Especially given light of all the 15 information that's come out. 16 Q: So, is your evidence then, sir, as a 17 result of the shooting and the unfortunate incident of 18 September the 6th, you are of the view that you can't 19 evaluate what your mind-set was when you were dealing 20 with the police in 1995 and providing the information? 21 A: I just don't feel that anything that 22 police officers are doing around this incident are anyway 23 connected to what I think or say. 24 There were several other people who they 25 were talking to and dealing with. They should all be
1061 asked the same kind of questions you're asking me, and 2 what they felt, and what they think and see what the 3 consensus of everyone is and maybe you'll get a clear 4 idea why I feel the way I do. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'll move on, 6 Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think, 8 Chief Bressette, that's what we're trying to do. We're 9 trying to ask everybody who has any information and try 10 to assess it. You certainly aren't being singled out to 11 be asked these questions. 12 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, and for all 13 -- whatever purposes and information you have here, 14 there's written record, there's recordings, there's 15 evidence already there. I don't know why I'm being asked 16 to rehash things that they already know. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 18 THE WITNESS: And -- and that's my reason 19 for not wanting to provide answers because I don't know 20 in what context they're going to be put. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Ms. 22 Jackson -- Ms. Tuck-Jackson has indicated that she's 23 going to move on. Mr. Henderson, are you -- 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I simply wanted 25 to indicate, obviously, although it's not an objection,
1071 this is an unpleasant experience for the Chief -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I 3 understand that. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He indicated 5 yesterday that prior to the incident, in his evidence, 6 and this is on the record, that he thought he had a good 7 working relationship with the OPP. If that takes my 8 Friend as far as she's going to get, I don't think she's 9 going to get fair and balanced OPP out of him today. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she's 11 prepared to move on. I'm going to assume that she is 12 moving on. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 15 Q: Thank you Mr. Commissioner. 16 Chief Bressette, I wanted to go back to a 17 number of comments that you made with respect to the 18 involvement of the Kettle and Stony Point police in the - 19 - thank you very much -- in the Park occupation from the 20 4th to the 6th, 1995. 21 And you told us, for example, yesterday 22 that in response to calls made by Marcel Beaubien about 23 concerns he expressed about the area, your reply to him 24 was to the effect of, How the OPP chooses to deal with 25 this was their business, not mine.
1081 You'd agree that you told us that 2 yesterday? 3 A: The OPP -- and I was told this by 4 government that it was out of my jurisdiction, the 5 Province asserted ownership, it was their jurisdiction, 6 so why am I being asked to comment on their jurisdiction? 7 Q: That's not quite what I -- I was 8 putting to you. 9 A: Well, that's -- that's my answer to 10 your question and if you don't like my answer, that's the 11 answer that -- that I can give you. 12 Q: You'd agree, sir, that you told Mr. 13 Beaubien, How the OPP chose to deal with this was their 14 business, not mine. 15 A: Well, they kept bothering me, all 16 right? And -- and I -- this is -- this is always trying 17 to drag me to this. 18 Now, Mr. Beaubien probably has, I don't 19 know how many, constituents to -- to deal with, why don't 20 they all have their names here what -- what their 21 responsibility was? 22 He, as a member of the Provincial 23 Parliament, chose to be directly involved in this. And 24 he is the one that interfered in -- in policing matters 25 here and was allowed to do so, which violates his
1091 position. He's supposed to remove himself from that and 2 why was he asking me about what and how the OPP should do 3 their job was none of my business and I can't comment on 4 that. 5 Q: All right. I think, actually, you 6 have just -- answered what I put to you. You also 7 indicated this morning that when the OPP would come to 8 you, and ask you what to do, you would told them -- tell 9 them, I don't want to be involved. 10 Did I hear that correctly this morning? 11 A: I -- I -- I don't know how many times 12 I'm being dragged through this, but I've always said -- I 13 always told them I didn't know what was going on in 14 there. I was always being asked much like you're doing 15 to me today, to comment on what was going on in there, 16 what was happening around there. 17 I wasn't there, I was told to stay away 18 from there. I wasn't welcome, I abided by that, yet I 19 was always contacted. And it was like somebody coming to 20 me and -- and -- and what was suggested by Mr. Ross that 21 I was being used certainly is materializing my mind as 22 what is attempting to happen again. 23 Q: Well, sir, I can indicate if this 24 assists in guiding for the -- the balance of my 25 questions, the OPP does not place blame at your feet,
1101 sir. Bearing -- 2 A: Well, why don't they accept the 3 blame, then? 4 Q: Bearing that in mind, sir, you'd 5 agree with me that from time to time, following the 6 occupation of the rifle range in 1993, and in particular 7 once the Park was occupied, the OPP came to you asking 8 you what to do? 9 They were asking for advice, is what I'm 10 suggesting to you, sir, as you told us this morning. 11 A: Why did they ask me when I told them 12 I wasn't in control and I wasn't down there and nobody 13 was answering to me, there were no communications. Why 14 would you continue to ask a person the same -- same thing 15 repeatedly, repeatedly. 16 Is it to get their name on a record, so 17 you can point at them and said that they told me to do 18 that? And that's what I really feel is -- is trying to 19 transpire here. 20 Q: I'll ask it one (1) more time, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 23 not sure that you're going to -- 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: In fact -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr.
1111 Henderson, do you have some observation to make? I'm not 2 sure you're going to get a different answer if you ask 3 the same question again. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, I think the 5 question has not only been asked by My Friend it's been 6 asked by previous Counsel -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: It was asked by 9 Commission Counsel -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: We've been -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. -- 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- taken through 14 these, you know, indications of the transcripts, three 15 (3) going on four (4) times and the Chief has been very 16 consistent in what he said -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- and I don't 19 think, you know, trying it again is -- is going to change 20 the answer. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 22 that's probably true. He -- 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: To be quite 24 candid, Mr. Commissioner, I was just hoping to recapture 25 the evidence this morning to move into another area but
1121 the -- his answer this morning is on the record and I'll 2 just move on to my next question. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 4 I think if we -- if you ask him questions that he's 5 already been asked, he's going to give you the same 6 answers it seems, and I think you should move on. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: You'd agree with me, Chief Bressette, 10 that Camp Ipperwash fell within the territorial 11 jurisdiction of the OPP? 12 A: That's what I was told, yes. 13 Q: And you would also agree, sir, that 14 the Provincial Park fell within the territorial 15 jurisdiction or the OPP? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the flip side of that, sir, you'd 18 agree, is that neither of those two (2) land masses fell 19 within the territorial jurisdiction of the Kettle and 20 Stony Point police? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I also, sir, understand, I want 23 to take you back to the helicopter shooting that we've 24 heard about that took place on the night of August the 25 23rd, 1993.
1131 We've heard evidence, sir, from two (2) of 2 the Kettle and Stony Point officers who were on duty that 3 night, that at your request, they were called away from 4 the scene of that shooting where they'd been asked to 5 assist by the OPP. 6 I trust, sir, -- 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, 8 that wasn't their evidence. The officer was up on the 9 highway by the fire, he was on highway -- he was at 10 Highway 21. And the transcripts clearly show that the 11 Chief called and said, Get those officers off Highway 21. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: August 23. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, August 14 23rd, 1996. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 16 think this is the helicopter incident that you're talking 17 about, Mr. Henderson. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm sorry -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's being 20 asked about now is specifically the helicopter incident. 21 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: My mistake, I 22 apologize. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Not at all. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:
1141 Q: All right, Chief Bressette, let's go 2 back. 3 A: No, I didn't hear any evidence like 4 that. 5 Q: I understand. 6 A: SO I don't want to answer questions 7 about that. 8 Q: I haven't asked you a question yet, 9 sir. 10 A: Oh? 11 Q: My question is: Would you agree that 12 at some point during the night following that shooting, 13 you gave a direction to both Chief Miles Bressette and 14 Constable Wallace Kaczanowski to disengage or remove 15 themselves from assisting in that investigation of that 16 incident? 17 A: Miles Bressette asked to be removed 18 from that situation. 19 Q: Well, in fairness to you, sir, that 20 wasn't his evidence. 21 A: Well, I'm just telling you what he 22 asked me that time. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: You wanted an answer, you got one. 25 That's what he asked for and that's what I did.
1151 Q: And did he explain why he wanted to 2 be removed from that situation? 3 A: He told me he didn't want to be 4 involved in that situation and he asked to be removed. 5 And he told me, can you call and have us removed, so I 6 did. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. I also 8 understand, sir, that it was in your view, it was your 9 view in August of 1995, that First Nations officers, in 10 the sense of Kettle and Stony Point officers, could not 11 police outside of their territory? 12 A: It wasn't my ruling, it was the 13 Provincial Government's ruling. 14 Q: No, I'm not suggesting, sir, it was 15 your ruling, I'm suggesting, sir, it was you 16 understanding that that was the state of affairs at the 17 time? 18 A: I'm telling you that was the ruling 19 of the Provincial Government. The OPP complained they 20 didn't want our police officers handing out tickets on 21 Highway 21 and areas surrounding the community. And that 22 was conveyed to our office, so we told them to stay 23 within our community. 24 So the OPP are the ones that made that -- 25 that complaint.
1161 Q: If I could take you, sir, to Tab 29 2 of the binder in front of you. Mr. Commissioner, I'll be 3 referring to the Minutes of the August 1st, 1995 General 4 Band Meeting, which have been marked as Exhibit P-43 in 5 these Proceedings. 6 And for the benefits of My Friend, it's 7 6000354. 8 And, sir, if you would turn to page 13, 9 you'll see mid-page, there we go, up on the screen, Barb 10 Bressette indicates at the very end of the long passage: 11 "I know I belong there. We don't need 12 the government to tell us we own it. 13 You maintain it. I was told our 14 police," 15 And then you interject: 16 "The Courts have ruled that First 17 Nation officers have no jurisdiction 18 off-reserve". 19 Do you agree that you said that, at that 20 meeting? 21 A: That's what -- that was conveyed to 22 me by the police officers. 23 Q: All right. So your understanding in 24 the summer of 1995 is that First Nations officers did not 25 have any authority off -- off your territory?
1171 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I also understand, sir, that 3 during the period of 1994, in particular, there was a 4 dispute or some tension, if I can put it that way, about 5 the presence of First Nations OPP officers on Kettle 6 Point? 7 A: There was dissension within the ranks 8 of the police. And it, I believe it was Miles Bressette, 9 he was on the Council at the time, and he's also a police 10 officer that didn't feel that, if they weren't allowed to 11 be working outside on the territory, then no OPP officers 12 should be coming into the community. 13 And there -- there was a lot of tension, 14 yes, and in the ranks of the police. And -- and that was 15 particularly fuelled by Miles, as he was a person that 16 was in charge of our police at the time. 17 Q: If you look at Tab 24, of the 18 documents in front of you, and I'm looking at, this is, 19 Mr. Commissioner, this is Document 2000540, it's a 20 Summary that was prepared by Inspector Linton. 21 And you'll see, sir, at the top of the 22 second page in, -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 24 Exhibit that the pages aren't numbered, so I'd have to -- 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It's literally
1181 the second page in, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And I mean 4 printed page, as opposed to paper page. At the very top 5 it should say: 6 "At the request of the Kettle/Stony 7 Point police --" 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 9 the back of the first page because we've got two (2) 10 sides. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: Fair enough, back of the first page 14 and Chief Bressette, what I want to do, sir, is draw your 15 attention to the second paragraph. And it states: 16 "The detachment Commander at Grand 17 Bend/ Forest, and I both received 18 several complaints about OPP vehicles 19 being seen on the Kettle/Stony Point 20 Reserve. 21 Upon investigation it was learned that 22 most of the incidents involved the four 23 (4) First Nations constables from Grand 24 Bend/Forest detachments who are Band 25 members and previously worked for the
1191 Kettle/Stony Point Reserve Police 2 Service. 3 These members, were primarily going 4 home or to a friend's residence during 5 meal periods or stopping at the Kettle 6 Stony Point Police Office to discuss 7 issues of mutual concern. 8 The underlying issues seem to be a 9 dislike for the First Nations police 10 officers who had quit the Reserve 11 police service to join the OPP." 12 Now, sir, is that a -- a fair summary of 13 the issue as you saw it? And -- and in fairness, sir, I 14 understand that the issue was really one that was -- was 15 made by Miles Bressette as opposed to anybody else in the 16 community? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. So, I -- I gather, sir, 19 that this paragraph accurately captures some of the 20 tension that was -- that arose following Miles 21 Bressette's complaints? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Thank you, sir. And if I could have 24 put in front of Chief Bressette, a letter dated July the 25 22nd, 1994, it's Document 2001343. I have an additional
1201 copy for Commissioner Linden and I've already provided a 2 copy to the Registrar in anticipation that it would be 3 made an exhibit. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: And I appreciate, sir, that you did 10 not author this letter. But I -- I'd like to -- to use 11 it to see if it refreshes your memory as to a meeting 12 that transpired that I understand dealt with -- 13 specifically with this -- this so-called complaint raised 14 by Miles Bressette. 15 The letter, sir, is authored by Staff 16 Sergeant Bouwman and as you've already told us he was an 17 OPP officer with whom you were familiar? Perhaps I'll 18 pause and give you a moment to read the letter, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. I read this, so... 23 Q: Thank you, sir. And you'll notice 24 that the officer, Office Bouwman, references a meeting 25 that transpired on July the 22nd, 1994 involving a number
1211 of senior officers with the OPP and yourself and Miles 2 Bressette; is that correct? Well, frankly, the letter 3 speaks for itself. Let me ask you this. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall that meeting, sir? 6 A: Yes, I recall this meeting, it was a 7 meeting that Miles had arranged and asked that I attend. 8 Q: Right. And it was a meeting to try 9 and work out a protocol as to the circumstances when a 10 First Nations OPP officer or I suppose any OPP officer, 11 ought to be coming onto the territory. 12 Is that fair; that was the purpose of the 13 meeting? 14 A: Well, Miles did draft a protocol and 15 I think he did present that to council and request that 16 it be accepted and I believe it was done, but all of 17 these things that are in here never occurred. 18 Q: I gather it's your observation that 19 they weren't observed, is that what you're suggestion? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So that there were still First 22 Nations OPP officers that came on to the territory in 23 violation of the protocol? 24 A: No, I think what happened at that 25 time is any time they -- there was calls made, they --
1221 they would call an officer at home instead of coming out 2 into the community and when they called for back up, they 3 sometimes never got back up. 4 There was, I guess, probably and looking 5 at this way it's worded, the OPP officers would have had, 6 I guess, felt like, you know, we didn't want them around 7 so why should they come around? 8 And generally, it impacted on all the 9 services and strained relations with the OPP. 10 Q: Let me ask you this, Chief Bressette. 11 Would it be fair to say that Miles Bressette, either 12 because of certain attitudes or certain personality, was 13 fuelling the tension between the First Nations Kettle 14 Point officers and the OPP? 15 Would that be fair from your observation? 16 A: I think it did. 17 Q: It did? Thank you, sir. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: It was put to you yesterday, sir, 22 that Miles Bressette had testified that even if the 23 Kettle and Stoney Point Band had been asked to intervene 24 and to assist the OPP during the 4th to the 6th, 1995, 25 you and council would not have permitted it to have
1231 occurred. 2 And you can take it from me, that that is 3 what he testified to. And as we heard your evidence 4 yesterday, sir, that's not what your position would have 5 been? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. So I gather, sir, that we 8 can take from those two (2) pieces of evidence, in 9 combination, that at no point did Miles Bressette or any 10 of the officers under his direction approach the chief or 11 council and ask permission to be allowed to intervene? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And I take it also, sir, 14 and it's not meant in any way as a criticism, but I take 15 it also, sir, that you did not approach them and suggest 16 they become involved? 17 A: I was always told the jurisdiction 18 for that was the OPP and the Park and I mean, why -- why 19 bump heads with something that was strained relations at 20 the time? 21 I don't think it would have got anywhere. 22 Q: All right. So the answer to my 23 question, I trust is, no, you didn't initiate any of that 24 on the part of the Kettle and Stoney Point police? 25 A: Nobody ever asked me to.
1241 Q: But my point, sir, is -- 2 A: No OPP, no Kettle Point members, no 3 council, nobody asked me to. 4 Q: And neither you nor council initiated 5 that; correct? 6 A: We were never asked to, I said, and 7 you want yes or no, the answer's no, we never did. 8 Q: Thank you, sir. I also, sir, want to 9 draw to your attention some -- some other evidence by 10 Officer Kaczanowski, and I just want to make sure that I 11 quote it accurately. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: During the course of his evidence, 16 sir, he gave an account of the time that he went into the 17 base area towards the inland lakes, along with a 18 Constable Wolfe and that while there, he was met with 19 some hostility by a number of the people who were 20 occupying that area. 21 And I had put to him that we'd heard 22 elsewhere before this Inquiry, that there had been a 23 consensus reached amongst the occupiers of the base that 24 they didn't want to be policed by Kettle and Stoney Point 25 officers. And he agreed with me that he wasn't surprised
1251 to learn indeed that was the consensus. 2 I trust, sir, that you, too, would not 3 have been surprised that the consensus was that these 4 occupiers did not want to be policed by the Kettle and 5 Stoney Point police? That wouldn't surprise you? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. You also, sir, understandably, 8 frankly, expressed frustration by what you perceived as a 9 lack of involvement by the First Nations OPP officers in 10 this incident? 11 A: It didn't have to be, particularly 12 the ones from our community, they got all kind of First 13 Nation OPP officers that probably should have been 14 involved in this, and I just take it that they -- they 15 feel they can't trust them or something, why they don't 16 deal with them that way. 17 Q: Well, sir, I gather you were unaware, 18 and I anticipate we're going to hear, that Vince George 19 was tapped into, if I can put it that way, as a resource 20 to help try and deal with this situation in a variety of 21 ways; were you not aware of that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. You also spoke yesterday 24 of your concerns about how, at the time, back in 1995, 25 there was no one in senior management who was First
1261 Nations within the OPP. 2 A: Yes. I mean, Superintendent level. 3 Q: All right. Because I was going to -- 4 A: There's a key element who sets all 5 the policy in the OPP, and they're all, I don't like to 6 use the term, White, but they're all -- 7 Q: Non-Aboriginal is what you mean? 8 A: -- non-Aboriginal, non-people of 9 colour, not people of any ethnic -- outstanding ethnic 10 balance of the makeup of Canada as a multi-cultural 11 country. They all seem to be the same genetic makeup of 12 who sits around the decision-making tables. They're all 13 Superintendent level, they're all the same. And I just 14 think it's an imbalance that in my mind is never going to 15 resolve anything. 16 Q: Well, it may be that when we get into 17 Part 2, that you're going to be hearing some evidence 18 that will address some of those issues, and hopefully 19 alleviate some of your concerns in that regard. But -- 20 A: It's not just my concern, I think -- 21 Q: No, I -- 22 A: -- a Black community in Toronto, and 23 I think there's a lot of other ethnic communities would 24 agree, that there needs to be a change in the policing 25 structure.
1271 Q: I trust, however, that you'd agree 2 with me that the person who was an inspector at the time, 3 in charge of First Nations policing within the OPP, was a 4 gentleman by the name of Jim Potts? 5 A: Yes, I knew Jim Potts. 6 Q: And he is First Nations? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you spoke very eloquently 9 yesterday of the regard that you hold for the current 10 Commissioner, Gwen Boniface? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you regard her as being sensitive 13 to complex First Nations' issues? 14 A: Yes. And I think a lot of it is 15 because she's a woman, too. She's not a man. 16 Q: It may very well be, sir. You regard 17 her as empathetic to those issues? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And although, obviously, she's not 20 First Nations, would it be fair to say that to a certain 21 degree she's able to feel what your community feels? 22 A: I believe so. 23 Q: You had mentioned this morning that 24 you continue not to have trust in the police today. But 25 by saying that, you're not extending that in any way to
1281 your view of Commissioner Boniface; she is an individual 2 whom you trust? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Thank you. You told us yesterday 5 that you had tried at one (1) point to communicate with 6 Commissioner O'Grady (phonetic)? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And it wasn't clear to me, sir, when 9 in the chronology you had done so? 10 A: I think that's when we were having 11 our internal disputes with OPP and our police, and that's 12 when I was trying to make him understand we were having 13 some difficulty, and I got no response. 14 Q: But you did get response from a 15 Superintendent level; would that be fair? 16 A: No, it got passed down the line and 17 that's not where I wanted to reach, so I just took it as 18 he didn't -- it didn't concern him to speak to me, and 19 that was my observation. 20 Q: All right. As opposed to, perhaps, 21 how the structure operated at that time? 22 A: Well, the structure operates in a 23 sense where somebody gets second, thirdhand information. 24 It's piped up the line and it doesn't really get to the 25 heart of what people need to say and him to hear.
1291 Q: And is that an example where perhaps 2 Commissioner Boniface is different, because you feel you 3 have a direct ear with her? 4 A: Well, she's at least -- at least 5 willing to come out and meet with people and try to gauge 6 what's going on. It makes very -- a very -- extended 7 efforts to try and do that. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 12 Commissioner, it's five (5) to 12:00. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 14 have to use your whole hour. We're -- 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: All right. Mr. 16 Millar is whispering in my ear, although we've gotten 17 into trouble by my saying that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 19 said that once before. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I know. That 21 we'll continue until 12:15. I'm going to try and bridge 22 as much as I can as we go along, sir. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1301 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 2 Q: You had expressed some concern 3 yesterday about the fact that the OPP didn't want to talk 4 to you and I wasn't sure entirely of the context of that. 5 Are you speaking specifically to the 6 incident of the 4th to the 6th, or are you talking about 7 a period pre-dating that? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Can you go back to what you're 12 referencing? When I said they didn't want to talk to me. 13 Q: It was a concern, it was -- it was a 14 rather broadly worded comment and I think it was borne of 15 some frustration, that there was -- there was a sense on 16 your part that the police weren't willing to talk with 17 you, that you were -- that your views or -- or your input 18 on things or just the idea of opening up talks to deal 19 with issues that affected your people, wasn't always 20 coming from the OPP. 21 A: There were times when it was like 22 that, and I think there was a lot of -- of that existed 23 right after the -- what happened -- 24 Q: Right after -- 25 A: -- in September, happened.
1311 Q: So I gather then, sir, what I hear 2 you saying is that up until the night of September the 3 6th, that wasn't a concern for you? You were content 4 that the police were prepared to listen to you when you 5 had concerns to express? 6 A: No, it was why weren't they telling 7 us what was happening? I mean, I heard a conversation 8 and I was told, we're going to go get a Court injunction. 9 Nothing's going to get out of hand and then, bang, 10 somebody goes running in there with guns blazing. 11 I mean that -- that to me, violated a lot 12 of discussion and dialogue that occurred in -- and like a 13 blank wall went up and communication just blocked off, 14 you know? Nobody cared to say what went wrong or 15 anything. 16 So, I don't know. I -- my feeling was, 17 let's get our story straight before we communicate. 18 Q: Let me ask you this, sir. When -- 19 when Gerald George came to your home on the evening of 20 September the 6th and reported that he'd seen a lot of 21 police cars racing to the -- I gather it was to the Park 22 area? 23 A: He didn't come directly. He went -- 24 he went and I think him and Bernard went somewhere else. 25 He didn't come right to my house, he came after he had
1321 dropped Bernard off and he went running towards the Park. 2 Q: But you got that information somehow 3 before -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- you headed down to the Park area? 6 A: Well, I called the National Chief. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: And said I think something bad is 9 going to happen here. 10 Q: And you'd agree with me that when you 11 got that information and you -- 12 A: It was late in the evening. 13 Q: Yes, sir. When you got that 14 information and your concerns about the situation were 15 heightened, I trust? 16 A: Well, yes, I mean I -- that call 17 about Mr. Harris certainly sparked things off and that's 18 why I felt something bad was going to happen and I -- 19 that's why I called the National Chief. 20 Q: And you'd agree with me, sir, that 21 after you received this information through Bob Watts, 22 you did not contact John Carson about it? 23 A: No, I didn't. 24 Q: And you'd also agree, sir, that after 25 your -- you received the information from Gerald George,
1331 that as you've indicated heightened some concern, you 2 also didn't initiate any contact with John Carson? 3 A: No, I didn't. He had already told me 4 he wasn't going to do anything, but I guess that must 5 have not been true. 6 Q: Well, the -- the transcript speaks 7 for itself -- 8 A: I'm -- I'm -- 9 Q: -- as to what he told you, so I'm not 10 going to go back and belabour that point, sir. 11 All right. I'd like to talk to you, if I 12 may, about some of the meetings that occurred after the 13 night of September the 6th, 1995, which I understand 14 involved yourself, Chief Superintendent Coles and 15 Superintendent Tony Parkin, all right? 16 And is it fair to say that Miles Bressette 17 was also at a number of those meetings, sir? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I can't be sure. 21 Q: And a number of these meetings dealt 22 with negotiating access to the crime scene at the 23 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road; 24 correct? 25 A: I believe there were other people at
1341 that meeting as well, not just myself and Miles. 2 Q: Oh, I -- I don't disagree with that 3 sir, I don't disagree with that, but you'd agree that one 4 (1) of the topics of those meetings was to negotiate 5 access to the crime scene at that intersection? 6 A: Well, we were there because they had 7 the meeting in our office, but they weren't negotiating 8 with us about access. We weren't in a position to 9 negotiate access. 10 Q: But as we've already seen, sir, 11 Bonnie Bressette or Yvonne Bressette was a signatory to 12 the document that was ultimately negotiated. 13 A: I'm aware of that, but like I said, 14 there were members from the -- the -- the -- the Base 15 that came down, they were present. I'm not sure if it 16 was Howard -- Howard Elijah or Bruce Elijah that were in 17 -- in the meeting as well, so like I said, you need to 18 basically get an understanding it wasn't just us in our 19 council meeting with the OPP. There were -- the other 20 folks were there as well. 21 Q: No, I entirely understand that, sir. 22 The -- 23 A: Well, that should be clear when you - 24 - when you make that statement. 25 Q: Fair enough.
1351 A: This is on the record. 2 Q: Fair enough. You're not suggesting 3 that the Kettle and Stoney Point Band did not have any 4 input in the negotiation of that document? 5 A: We were there basically because we 6 were asked to -- to be at the meeting, so we were there. 7 Q: And you wanted to be there I trust? 8 A: After what had -- had occurred, the 9 police desperately wanted to get control of the crime 10 scene. It wasn't us, we didn't want to get control of it. 11 The people already had control of the crime scene, it was 12 the OPP that were -- were needing this meeting and 13 desperately wanted this. 14 Q: And I -- 15 A: And they asked us to basically -- if 16 they could meet and they had a meeting in our police 17 building and we were there because that's the way they 18 asked for us to be there. 19 Q: All right. Apart from what was 20 precisely discussed at a number of these meetings, I want 21 to talk to you about the attitude that was shown or 22 demonstrated by the senior officers from the OPP and when 23 asked of Miles Bressette how he found Chris Coles and 24 Tony Parkin to be, he agreed with me that they were both 25 extremely reasonable in their approach to these post-
1361 shooting-incident discussions, if I can put it that way? 2 Would you have any reason to disagree with 3 that, sir? 4 A: Well, they were on the Reserve with 5 just us, they had to be that way. I don't know how it 6 would have been if we were off the Reserve, but they were 7 surrounded by the people who they had just attacked and I 8 think that's why they were really nice guys at that time. 9 Q: Well, I anticipate that we're going 10 to hear from both of them as to what was motivating their 11 actions that day. But you don't disagree that they 12 certainly presented as extremely reasonable at the table? 13 A: No. Yesterday I -- I tried to make 14 it clear what made me change my opinion of a lot of 15 people. We had a talking circle and one of our Elders 16 got offended at Mr. Coles about comments that were made 17 during that thing, and the purpose that he was using it 18 for. 19 Q: What were those comments, sir? 20 A: I'm not clear, but I still recall our 21 Elder got offended, and he stood up and he told him, you 22 know, how dare you violate what we consider to be a 23 sacred process and -- and you -- I forget exactly what he 24 challenged him on, but if I called him and spoke to him, 25 he would tell me exactly what it was.
1371 But all I know is ever since then, I -- I 2 just -- I didn't have too much regard after that 3 incident, in -- in regards to what he was saying and what 4 his position was, and, unfortunately, when you violate 5 somebody's trust, that's what happens. 6 So, you can, you know, say what you'd like 7 about these fellas, in your opinion they may be that, in 8 the opinion of others they may have a different opinion 9 and that's just the way it'll remain. 10 Q: Sir, my opinion I can tell you, 11 doesn't count here. 12 A: Well it's -- 13 Q: What I'm interested in, sir, is your 14 evidence. And I gather, sir, that what you're saying to 15 us, is that you're questioning their motivation, but you 16 don't disagree with me that these senior OPP officers 17 presented as reasonable in the positions they were 18 taking; is that fair? 19 A: Well, what -- when you want somebody 20 to give you something, you're always real nice to them, 21 right? And if that's what you're referring to, I guess 22 I'll have to agree with you. 23 Q: Myles Bressette also testified that 24 he found both of them to be sensitive to the concerns 25 that were being expressed at the table by the First
1381 Nations people that were there. 2 A: Well, if Miles said that, you should 3 ask him to say what he thinks about them. I -- I don't 4 know -- my opinion about it and I told you this is 5 changed, and it's because of what happened and what 6 transpired. 7 And that was after the shooting, and that 8 was after all of this, and even this whole process here 9 seems to be trying to shift the blame from somebody when 10 they should be accepting it. 11 Q: The meeting that you speak of, where 12 as you claim, there was a concern expressed by an Elder 13 about something mentioned by Chris Coles -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- that took place on September the 16 7th up at the Pinedale Motel in Grand Bend? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And I understand, sir -- 19 perhaps for the benefit of Chief Bressette, could we have 20 Document 2003790 put up on the screen? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: There we go. Sir, these are notes 25 that were made by Superintendent Tony Parkin and bearing
1391 that in mind, sir, I'm just interested in some of the 2 information that's contained in it, whether you can 3 confirm or -- or -- 4 A: I'm not going to speak about this, 5 because nobody was supposed to be keeping notes or 6 anything in that circle. And that, again, shows why they 7 violated what we were discussing, recording things and 8 they told us they were going to respect the process we 9 were in and it gives reason why the Elder got upset with 10 the Chief Superintendent. 11 Q: It -- 12 A: I don't want to discuss this. I'm 13 not going to answer anything about that particular 14 meeting. I'll -- I'll observe what I said I would do, 15 and if they choose not to that's up to them. 16 Q: If you're expressing a concern, sir, 17 that these notes were made during the course of the 18 meeting, that's not frankly clear. It may very well be 19 that they were made after the fact, sir, out of respect. 20 A: I'm still not going to concur with 21 anybody's minutes that weren't dealt with, with everybody 22 in that meeting because that's only his own opinion and 23 that's the way it'll remain with me and I suggest, maybe, 24 he should bring all those other people in to see if they 25 have the same feeling I do, whether they agree with him
1401 keeping notes about what we were discussing, because I 2 certainly didn't keep notes on what we were discussing. 3 Q: Sir, would you agree that by the end 4 of the meeting there was an agreement that everyone there 5 was to think about arranging for a joint patrol of the 6 cottage area as between, sort of, the west beach area? 7 A: I think that did happen, what you're 8 referring to. There were Anishnaabek officers brought in 9 and they were driving around with white -- white flags on 10 their cruisers and they were not armed. 11 Q: And I gather, sir, that -- that you 12 don't disagree that the meeting actually went on and 13 certain issues related to the incident were discussed? 14 A: I still feel, you know, when a 15 meeting goes bad and people dishonour the process they 16 went into, why should I acknowledge it? I mean I -- we 17 wanted to resolve some matters and consequently after we 18 left, we did, but not during the course of that meeting. 19 Q: You'd agree, sir, that there was 20 another meeting the following day at ten (10) to 8:00 at 21 night that took place at a school? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Again, involving Chief Superintendent
1411 Coles, Superintendent Parkin and also Inspector Potts? 2 A: I know we met with Inspector Potts. 3 We had more trust in him than anybody. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Perhaps I'll put it this way. You 8 don't disagree that in the days following the unfortunate 9 shooting, there were a series of meetings in which the 10 OPP came to the table and everyone was working towards 11 working out peaceable solutions to some of the issues 12 that had arisen following the shooting? 13 You don't disagree with that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And from what you could observe, 16 there was a willingness by the OPP to come to those 17 tables? 18 A: Well, they certainly wanted to make 19 it appear as though they -- they were really sympathetic 20 and wanted things back and I don't know why they let 21 happen, happen, because if they wouldn't have dealt with 22 it that way, we wouldn't have had this whole series and 23 what we're dealing with now, we wouldn't be here. 24 And someone would have been alive today if 25 they didn't decide to send in their hit men, whatever
1421 they are. 2 Q: Chief Bressette, I very much 3 appreciate your time, thank you, sir. Those are my 4 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 7 We're going to take our lunch break now. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 10 to shorten it, if that's all right. I know it's 11 sometimes difficult for Counsel to find a place to have 12 lunch and get back within an hour, but I would ask 13 everybody if we could try to keep our lunch break to an 14 hour today so we could finish at a reasonable time if 15 possible. 16 Yes, Mr. Henderson? You're not going to 17 object to that, are you? No. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I -- I wouldn't 19 object at all, Commissioner, certainly the schedule is in 20 your hands. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The Witness has 23 been on the stand for three and a quarter (3 1/4) hours. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He's going to
1431 have a short lunch, I hope we're not going to press the 2 schedule to the point that we're pressing this Witness. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At any time 4 that Mr. -- that Chief Bressette has had enough, he'll 5 just tell us and we'll stop, we'll bring him back. We're 6 trying to do this to accommodate the Chief -- 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm not -- I'm 8 not saying that -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- I'm not -- I 11 said yesterday and Chief Bressette agrees, we'll stay as 12 long as it takes, but -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if he 14 needs a break at any time -- Chief Bressette, if you need 15 a break at any time, all you have to do is say so and 16 we'll break. 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I guess what Mr. 19 Henderson is saying, he would like an hour and a quarter 20 lunch. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is he saying 22 that? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's what he's 24 saying. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I did not
1441 get that impression. Is that -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's what I take 3 from it, so why don't we do an hour an a quarter? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 5 how you took that from it, Mr. Millar. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's what he's 7 asking. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'll take 9 your word for it. If that's what he was saying, then -- 10 you need an hour and a quarter lunch, that's fine. 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, 12 it's my turn to compliment Mr. Millar on his sensitivity. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Thank 14 you very much. We'll take an hour and quarter. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 16 adjourned until 1:30. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 12:18 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 1:32 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, Mr. 24 Frederick, who appears on behalf of Mr. Hodgson, has to 25 leave early today, so he -- Ms. Jones and Mr. Downard and
1451 others have agreed that he can go. He's only going to be 2 ten (10) minutes, he's telling us. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. He 4 had estimated thirty (30), so that's a good tradeoff. 5 MR. MARK FREDERICK: A little bit of 6 creative cutting-down on that. Thank you. And I'm of 7 course indebted to you, Mr. Commissioner, and My Learned 8 Friends, for allowing me to step in queue in this 9 fashion. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARK FREDERICK: 12 Q: Chief Bressette, my name is Mark 13 Frederick. I'm here on behalf of Chris Hodgson. I'm 14 going to ask you a couple of questions today. If you 15 don't understand any of my questions, please feel free to 16 tell me. I hope they're not controversial. 17 I want to take you back to the fall of 18 1995, indeed everybody else has here. As I understand 19 it, at that time the Band, your Band, had a good rapport 20 with the Ministry of Natural Resources; would that be 21 correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And particularly, there was a 24 good rapport with, I think, a fellow named Les Kobayashi, 25 who was Superintendent of the Park?
1461 A: Yes. 2 Q: In fact, I think that you mentioned 3 yesterday, My Friend Mr. Mills took down a note, that Mr. 4 Kobayashi had discussed with you, in June of 1993, the 5 prospect of pro-management of the Ipperwash Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: The other thing, I understand, is 8 that there is a projection of land onto Lake Huron west 9 of the Park, and I think they call that the Lake Huron 10 Projection. Are you familiar with that bit of land? 11 A: Stoney Point. 12 Q: Okay. I understand that that 13 projection of land has some special significance for your 14 First Nation? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I understand that it was an 17 agreement with the Ministry of Natural Resources and the 18 Band such that they could visit that projection any time 19 of the year; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that agreement, of course, was 22 made prior to the incident involving the occupation? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, I further understand that Band 25 members didn't have to pay a fee or enter the Park in
1471 order to visit this site; is that correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I understand that there had been 4 other areas of cooperation between the Band and the MNR 5 as well on other matters and some of them including -- I 6 think some people from the local Band were employed by 7 the MNR? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that spirit of cooperation 10 extended even to the beginning of the occupation. I 11 understand that Mr. Kobayashi had been cooperating with 12 the occupiers at the beginning of the occupation. 13 Was that your understanding as well? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- and my understanding is his -- 16 his rationale was just trying to avoid conflict. 17 Would that be your understanding as well? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I think he -- he gave them keys and 20 he got his staff to leave the Park soon after the 21 occupation? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, I understand the good rapport 24 that was enjoyed at the local level with the Ministry of 25 Natural Resources also extended to Ministry Officials to
1481 some extent; is that correct? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: I understand prior to the unfortunate 4 incident involving Mr. Dudley George, you had met with 5 Mr. Peter Allen on occasion; is that correct? 6 A: I think so, I'm not really sure. 7 Q: Okay. My -- my recollection is that 8 he was the -- the Executive Assistant to Deputy Minister, 9 whose name was Mr. Vrancourt, V-R-A-N-C-O-U-R-T. 10 A: Would that -- 11 Q: Does that -- does that -- 12 A: Would that be at the Pinery? 13 Q: Yeah, it could have been at the 14 Pinery? Does that ring a bell? 15 A: I met with people at the Pinery, I 16 know that. 17 Q: Okay. Well, we'll hear from him 18 exactly when it was, but Mr. Allen, as I understand, will 19 -- will given evidence that he will characterize the 20 meetings he had with you as being cordial, business-like, 21 appropriate. 22 Would that be your recollection of the 23 tenure meetings you had with MNR people? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, during our examination
1491 yesterday, my Learned Friend Mr. Millar asked you whether 2 you recalled the meeting with Minister Hodgson and Peter 3 Allen which took place after the September 6/7 incident; 4 do you recall that? 5 I think you told him that you couldn't 6 recall a specific meeting. 7 A: Yeah, I -- I couldn't recall. I had 8 several meetings and it was quite hectic during that 9 time. 10 Q: I -- I'd understand, you were meeting 11 with a lot of people after the incident because you were 12 trying to do your best to diffuse the situation. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you were trying to protect and 15 assist members of your Band; isn't that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you also wanted to see that there 18 was some protection for members of the general public as 19 well? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So, it wouldn't be surprising, you 22 couldn't recall every meeting that you'd been to. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Is that fair? 25 A: Yes.
1501 Q: Now, in this meeting with Mr. Hodgson 2 and Mr. Allen, I understand it was shortly after -- 3 shortly after the shooting incident, I'm going to try and 4 assist you in your recollections and see if -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- see if any of this rings a bell 7 for you. I anticipate that it's going to be Mr. Hodgson 8 and Mr. Allen's evidence that you came to meet with them 9 in Toronto at their -- the Ministry offices. 10 Do you recall being at the Ministry 11 Offices in Toronto? 12 A: Which office is it? 13 Q: The Ministry of -- the Ministry of 14 Natural -- 15 A: Where -- where was your head office 16 at? 17 Q: It would be down near Queen's Park 18 some place. 19 A: On Bay Street? 20 Q: Probably up near Wellesley, somewhere 21 around there -- Wellesley -- 22 A: I've been in those buildings. 23 Q: And you were there, as I say, as a 24 representative of your people, attending the meeting? 25 A: Yeah.
1511 Q: And their recollection is you were 2 trying to be a good leader, looking out for the best 3 interests of everybody involved. 4 That would be, of course, your motive for 5 going to such a meeting; fair? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And the reason for the meeting, as I 8 understand it, was to try and find a way to de-escalate 9 what had been a situation that nobody ever intended; 10 fair? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that was a mutual goal of 13 everybody who was at the meeting, yourself, Mr. Hodgson 14 and Mr. Allen; is that correct? 15 A: I believe so. 16 Q: And you and those gentlemen were 17 trying to talk about some way of finding some kind of 18 resolution to the conflict. 19 Would that be -- I realize you may -- does 20 that help ring a bell for you? 21 A: Well, I -- I really don't have a 22 distinct recollection, but it -- it sounds like we -- I 23 know the Band was trying to, sort of, find ways to de- 24 escalate the whole tensions that were in the area and try 25 to find a way for some solutions to be met.
1521 Q: And I -- my understanding is, 2 everyone at the meeting expressed the desire to explore 3 steps to ensure that nobody else got hurt. 4 That would certainly be consistent with 5 the type of mind frame you'd want to bring to any 6 meeting? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: During the meeting, I'm of the 9 understanding that Messrs. Hodgson and Allen proposed 10 having someone come forward to try and mediate the 11 situation; do you recall anything along those lines? 12 Get a mediator involved and try and bring 13 everybody back to talking? I don't mean you talking, 14 because you were talking, I mean people who were 15 occupying the -- the location. 16 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 17 Q: And my understanding from Messrs. 18 Hodgson and Allen is that you agreed that that would be a 19 good way to try and -- and get over this, and that you 20 had been exploring that situation with others, in the 21 course of the last two (2) days, you had been meeting 22 with people? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Now, during the meeting, I'm 25 of the understanding that you briefed Mr. Hodgson and Mr.
1531 Allen on your view of the situation, as you had it at 2 that time. And obviously you didn't know every fact 3 going, but you told them what you had managed to see of 4 the situation. 5 A: Well -- 6 Q: That would be something that would 7 likely be part of what you'd be sharing at a meeting if 8 you went to it? 9 A: Well, I didn't know exactly what was 10 going on in the Park or anything related to that, I know 11 that. 12 Q: Only -- only your view only to the 13 extent that you -- what you understood was occurring? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you stated at that time that you 16 didn't agree with the actions of the occupiers or the 17 occupation of the Park, and that was your view at that 18 time; is that fair? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: But, you stated, though, that the 21 occupation wasn't right, but that one of the causes of 22 the unrest that led to the occupation was the inaction of 23 the Federal Government? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I'm understanding that Messrs.
1541 Hodgson and Allen understood from you that that was part 2 of a main problem behind this whole situation? 3 Now, you expressed at that meeting that 4 the occupiers were, I'm going to use the word, dissident, 5 because I can't think of any other word to use, but they 6 were a dissident group from your Band, but that they 7 didn't speak for your Band; is that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I also understand that part of 10 the problem that you conveyed to Messrs. Hodgson and 11 Allen was that the dissident group didn't want to 12 identify a leader to negotiate. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: That was certainly part of the 15 problem back at that time. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: There was some further discussion 18 about how some dialogue could begin and what Messrs. 19 Hodgson and Allen notice is that you were very keen to 20 try and assist and help your people in this situation. 21 Would that be a fair observation of your 22 demeanour at that particular time? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You were clearly upset, as I 25 understand it, over the turn of events and the violence
1551 that had taken place? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And my understanding is you were 4 upset not only that somebody got shot by the police, but 5 that there was this general violence, even from among 6 some of the occupiers of the Park at the time? 7 A: Yeah, I think there were some 8 instances that were sort of creating some concern in our 9 community. 10 Q: And they had happened over the 11 summer, I think, is what -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: There had been some -- some 14 harassment of one person or another. You were there 15 trying to see that no one else could get hurt, 16 ultimately, that was your foremost goal in coming to that 17 meeting, is my understanding. 18 And that would be consistent with your 19 view of things; fair? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the other thing is you feared for 22 the safety of the occupiers themselves, you may have 23 disagreed with them, but you didn't want to see anybody 24 else hurt? 25 A: Yes.
1561 Q: And I understand that you -- that 2 that certainly was the message conveyed to you from the 3 Ministry of Natural Resources point of view; they didn't 4 want anybody hurt in any of their Parks either. 5 That's what you would have understood from 6 them? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And that demeanour, you never 9 encountered a different demeanour from anybody in the 10 Ministry of Natural Resources; is that fair? 11 A: No, I -- not personally, no. 12 Q: The other thing is that there was 13 some fear that this incident happening would close the 14 ears of the Federal Government, that they would not 15 become as ready to try and solve the situation? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I understand Mr. Hodgson said 18 that he would try and -- and write and get in contact 19 with the Federal Government to see what he could do to 20 help them move discussions along. 21 Is that -- do you -- does that sound -- 22 A: I don't recall it, but it -- it 23 probably did occur. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I mean, if you're saying that we were
1571 working towards trying to resolve things, and that was 2 identified, I -- I could see that happening. 3 Q: Yeah. I just noticed, later on in 4 the productions, and I won't take you to them, because I 5 -- you've seen enough productions and you don't want to 6 see any anymore. 7 But I see there -- there were a number of 8 letters Mr. Hodgson wrote to the Federal Crown, to try 9 and get them moving on the issue and honour the 10 commitments concerning the Ipperwash, to find out whether 11 or not Ipperwash Park was a -- was a contested land, and 12 whether the Crown -- Provincial Crown had proper Title to 13 it, or should have had it? 14 A: Yes, I -- 15 Q: I won't trouble you with that any 16 further. I understand at the meeting you also told 17 Minister Hodgson and Mr. Allen that you had no control 18 whatsoever over the occupiers and that certainly would 19 have been a true fact that you'd stated it. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: That -- you also told them that you 22 thought, in your view, certain members of the group had 23 the potential for violence. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Would that be fair?
1581 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And that -- you also said that you 3 felt that there was a presence of First Nations people 4 from other Bands or groups or territories was maybe 5 inciting the occupiers to act. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I think, in particular, I 8 understand a gentleman by the name of Mr. Jewel was 9 someone who you mentioned as someone who would -- may 10 have been fomenting some difficulties within the Occupier 11 group? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, you suggested -- and I'm coming 14 to the end of my questions -- you'd suggested that some 15 of the people who had occupied the Park were, in your 16 view, capable of violence. 17 I'm also of the understanding that you 18 told Messrs. Hodgson and Allen that you personally feared 19 for security of yourself and for some of the people 20 around you -- some of your fellow Councilors; would that 21 also be true? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I'm under the understanding that 24 Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Allen took your remarks very 25 seriously, they -- they -- they received it very
1591 seriously, but I -- I don't know if you have any 2 recollection of that or if that rings a bell for you? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Finally, I understand at the 5 time of your meeting, some of the occupiers were 6 beginning to suggest that there were burial sites at the 7 Park. This would have been around -- shortly after Mr. 8 George's -- it might have been shortly before Mr. 9 George's unfortunate death, but certainly afterwards 10 there were suggestions of burial grounds. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes, and I believe that happened 13 because Minister Irwin showed up with documents from 14 1937, basically stating there was a burial site in the 15 Park. 16 Q: My understanding from your evidence 17 yesterday is, you're not quiet so certain of that, but my 18 understanding is, one (1) of the things you did discuss 19 during the meeting with Messrs. Hodgson and Allen to help 20 diffuse the situation was the possibility of getting some 21 grant money set aside to assist in locating grave sites 22 at Ipperwash Park, if there were any such sites. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you -- do you recall a discussion 25 to that effect at some point?
1601 A: Yes, I believe there was. 2 Q: And Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Allen 3 expressed a hope that perhaps that would be an initial 4 step that could have allowed you or -- or someone who's a 5 mediator or someone with some convincing power to broker 6 some sort of deal between the Parties? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I understand that you weren't 9 entirely certain it would work, but it was probably worth 10 an effort to try? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I understand that Messrs. Hodgson 13 and Allen gave you some personal encouragement at the 14 conclusion of the meeting and sympathized with the 15 difficulties you faced in your position as Chief. 16 Does that sound like something that might 17 ring a bell with you? 18 A: I -- I believe so. 19 Q: Okay. And they hoped that 20 negotiations would bring some peace to this troubled 21 situation? 22 A: Well, that was everybody's statements 23 after the fact, you know, everybody I met with and -- and 24 if that -- like, all I can say is, yes, I heard that from 25 several people, several government officials, and I guess
1611 my only response back was, I wished they would have done 2 something before this happened. 3 Q: Chief, you'll be happy to know that I 4 don't have any other questions for you and I -- well 5 maybe eleven (11) minutes -- but thank you very much, 6 Commissioner. 7 A: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 I think Ms. Karen Jones, then is next. 11 Ms. Jones...? 12 Oh, I'm sorry. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It's all right. 14 Mr. Commissioner, it occurred to me over lunch that I was 15 remiss in failing to ask the letter that I referred Chief 16 Bressette to, I didn't ask that it be marked as an 17 exhibit, that's the letter of July the 22nd, 1994. 18 I wonder please, sir, if it could be 19 marked as the next exhibit? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-254. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-254? 23 THE REGISTRAR: Document Number 2001343. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-254: Document Number 2001343 July
1621 22/94 letter from Staff 2 Sergeant K. Bouwman OPP to 3 the Superintendent OPP 4 Chatham Re: Policing - Kettle 5 Point Reserve. 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you very 9 much, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. Ms. Jones...? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Good afternoon, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon, Ms. Jones. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Chief Bressette, my name's Karen 22 Jones. I'm one (1) of the lawyers who represents the 23 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 24 A: Oh. 25 Q: Chief Bressette, we heard a little
1631 bit this morning about the fact that in 1992, you had 2 made some representations before the standing committee 3 on Aboriginal affairs. And what I wanted to do, Chief 4 Bressette, was get a copy of the minutes of that before 5 you and ask you a few questions about that to start. 6 And I have a copy, if -- I'm not sure if 7 it's in the book before you, but if not I have another 8 copy of it. You do? Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: It -- it's -- sorry, and just to be 13 clear for the record, Mr. Commissioner, it is Hansard 14 from June 18th, 1992. Again, the minutes of proceedings 15 and evidence of the standing committee on aboriginal 16 affairs. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And, Chief Bressette, when I look at 21 the Hansard, and I -- I start off, just, if we turn to 22 the first page of the evidence that -- at the top says 23 "18/6/1992." 24 Part way down on the first page on the 25 left hand side, I noted that when you first started
1641 speaking to the Committee, you were noting that a motion 2 had been tabled by that standing committee on March 13th, 3 1992 about the return of the Camp Ipperwash lands. And 4 there was a -- you made mention of the fact that the 5 motion stated that the Kettle and Stoney Point Band had 6 declined to appear and that that was an error and you 7 wanted to correct the record. 8 And I'm just bringing that forward because 9 we heard quite a bit from Ron George when he gave 10 evidence about the representations that he and other 11 people made when they had appeared before the committee 12 in 1991. 13 And I had wondered about you at that point 14 in time, and then I saw this Hansard, so I take it that 15 you had an opportunity to address the committee after 16 that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And when I went through the Hansard, 19 Mr. Bressette -- sorry, Chief Bressette, it looked like 20 one of the real issues that you were trying to clear up 21 for the committee and you started off talking about that 22 on the second page at the top, was that it was important, 23 first of all, that the land be returned; that the second 24 thing was that the committee recognize that if there were 25 internal disputes between Band members, that that was an
1651 internal affair and ought not to be something that they 2 concern themselves with. 3 And I take it that one (1) of the reasons 4 for that was your concern that that internal Band dispute 5 could slow down or cause a problem in terms of the 6 negotiations? 7 A: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And I take it that, from looking at 12 Hansard, that some of the Elders from Kettle and Stoney 13 Point also attended -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- at the standing committee that day 16 and also gave some evidence before the committee? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And one of the issues I particularly 21 wanted to ask you about, Chief Bressette, and you'll see 22 that on -- in my copy it's numbered 30.17 and it's about 23 four (4) pages from the back. 24 And there's a section where you were asked 25 about the ordinance or the potential for unexploded
1661 ordinance on the Base. And we had heard from, and saw in 2 the excerpts of Hansard from Ron George's submission, 3 that he had mentioned that Clifford George had been one 4 (1) of the people involved in cleaning up the area after 5 the war was over. 6 And I take it from reading that, that was 7 something that you knew about as well? 8 And you had talked there about, because 9 you were a former Combat Engineer, that if you had the 10 opportunity to go in and look at the Base, that you might 11 be in a position to get a sense of how much of a problem 12 there was, or how much needed to be cleaned up? 13 A: You would say. I would have to see? 14 Q: Well, one (1) of the comments you 15 make in there is that -- that you would have to be shown 16 where the armaments were or unexploded shells, and it 17 says, 18 "to be able to state that, and we've 19 never been given the privilege or the 20 opportunity to go on a tour there." 21 And when I looked at that, I took it that 22 you, yourself, had never had a chance to really go 23 through the Base and get a sense of what problems might 24 be there? 25 A: No --
1671 Q: And that that would be important? 2 A: No, I went to Alberta to look at 3 Harvey Barracks that they were cleaning up, and it's 4 formerly called Camp Calgary. 5 Right underneath the -- underneath the -- 6 the built-up area that they had would of -- there was a 7 lot of garbage and a lot of things underneath or --after 8 they had told the Band there it was completely clean. 9 The land was all, you know, it was really cleaned up and 10 they could just take it back. They went through it, and 11 I think eleven (11) times, and it's still not clean. 12 And that's been over a fifteen (15) year 13 period that this cleanup has been going on and they 14 continue to find unexploded ordinance at one (1) point. 15 And I explained this to the Band members in a Band 16 meeting that they were -- a guy was grading the road and 17 as he was going down the road he heard a clinking noise 18 and he looked down and there was a rocket rolling along 19 underneath the blade of his road grader, that had popped 20 out of the ground. 21 And -- and that was the reason for the 22 concern, is because even if they say there was nothing 23 there, there was things there and that. Ae also -- we 24 reported, when we were doing maintenance work, one (1) of 25 our -- I was on the Council and he was a former Chief,
1681 Victor George, he was doing work underneath one of those 2 buildings, and he found a live hand grenade underneath 3 one of the -- the barracks there. 4 So, you know, this whole notion of 5 unexploded ordinance draws a -- a grave concern, even 6 after the Military states they clean it up. I don't 7 think it was cleaned to the degree that it was totally 8 clean. 9 Q: And when you talk about the 10 experience in Alberta, I take it that was the Base that 11 affected the Sarcee? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And we'll go through some of the 14 Minutes of the Kettle and Stony Point Band, and -- and 15 you make reference to that. 16 And so I take it, in your view, that 17 that's something that you take really seriously, and it 18 needs to be explored really thoroughly? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes. And I understood from looking 21 at the Hansard, Chief Bressette, that as a result of your 22 representations, and those of the Elders that you went 23 with, that the Standing Committee did, in fact, change 24 their Motion? 25 A: Yes.
1691 Q: Is that right? Mr. Commissioner, I 2 wonder if we could have the Hansard from June 18th, 1992, 3 made an Exhibit in this Proceeding? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-255. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-255. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-255: Hansard, June 18/92, Minutes 8 of Proceedings and evidence 9 of the Standing Committee on 10 Aboriginal affairs. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: And one (1) of the questions that Mr. 14 George was asked, Chief Bressette, and I'll ask you the 15 same question, is: If you've had a chance to review the 16 Hansard of your representations and whether you adopt 17 them today? 18 A: What's that? 19 Q: Whether you've had a chance to read 20 the Hansard and whether you adopt -- 21 A: Oh -- 22 Q: -- your comments? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. The next thing I wanted to ask 25 you about, Chief Bressette, and this is just to make sure
1701 that there's sort of a good chronology about some of the 2 steps that you and members of Council took over the 3 course of 1990 to 1995. I don't want to belabour points, 4 because I know you've been through it before. 5 But if you could -- if you have before you 6 the minutes of the Kettle and Stony Point Council. It's 7 that Cerlox bound white book that is in front of you. 8 A: What tab? 9 Q: At Tab 1, and for the assistance of 10 the record, this is Exhibit 219. And the document at Tab 11 1 is the minutes of the regular Council meeting from 12 January 5th, 1993. 13 And if you turn to the second page of the 14 document, we'll see from the minutes, and I take it that 15 you were present at that meeting, Chief Bressette? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yeah. Is that a number of Elders 18 wanted to work collectively with the Kettle and Stony 19 Point Band Council -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- on resolving the Stoney Point 22 issue. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I take it at that period of time, 25 you and the Band Council were in -- in the group of
1711 people that's mentioned there, Marlene Cloud, Janet 2 Cloud, Gordon Cloud, Carl George and Elaine George, were 3 they part of the group at the time that would have called 4 or described themselves as the locatee committee or was 5 that a different group? 6 A: Well, they -- they were, I think, the 7 ones that decided to -- to look into the occupation of 8 the ranges at the time. 9 Q: Sorry? 10 A: So, yes, yes to your question. 11 Q: Okay, okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And then when we turn to Tab 2, Chief 16 Bressette, which is the minutes of the regular Council 17 meeting on -- from January 18th, 1993. 18 And if you look on the second page of that 19 it looks like there was further discussion about the 20 issue of Stoney Point between yourself and the Band 21 Council and a number of the same people that had spoke at 22 the last meeting? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And when I went through that 25 part of the agenda and went to the bottom of that area
1721 that it says: 2 "Due to discussion with Robert George 3 prior to Council." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: "And the Council of Elders must meet 7 with Robert George and get clear 8 direction on what their position is." 9 And I take it that that referred to their 10 position about the negotiations; is that right? 11 A: I'm really not sure about that. I 12 think this may have had some relation to some of the 13 activities of Maynard T. George and -- and his 14 interaction, trying to get contracts for work out of the 15 -- out of the Band Council. I'm not sure what -- what 16 that -- that dialogue led to but I -- I think it was 17 directly about Maynard. 18 It says "Stating Maynard had no authority 19 for anything he's done." 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: That's what it says. 22 Q: Okay. And the reason I wanted to ask 23 you that, Chief Bressette, is because we've looked at a 24 document that, for the assistance of Counsel, is 1003493 25 and it's Exhibit 195 and --
1731 A: Can I -- can I go back to the -- 2 this, "Due to the discussion with Robert George?" 3 Q: Oh, please do. 4 A: I think what Maynard was trying to do 5 at that time was to -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- get funding out of us and -- and I 8 recall this. He wanted us to pay him some money for 9 releasing documents to the Council. And that's what the 10 call from Robert George is about, just about them 11 releasing information that they had to us. 12 That was a concern in -- in the Council, 13 basically, that was the -- due to the discussions prior 14 to Council that Council Elders should meet with Robert 15 George to get clear direction on what their position is 16 and that's what it states. They have no authority to 17 release information until then. And we were basically 18 trying to meet to start working together -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- and that was -- that was an 21 objection that was raised. 22 Q: Okay. And I wanted -- I just wanted 23 to follow through on that line of, you know, wanting to 24 meet and working together because the document I had just 25 referred you to, which is P-195 and I'm not sure where
1741 that is in your book, if it is in your book. It's not in 2 your book? Maybe I'll just hand it over to you. 3 It is the press release from Stoney Point 4 First Nation and it's dated May 6th, 1993, so that was 5 about on the day that the group of people first started 6 occupying the Base. 7 And you'll see that the very bottom 8 paragraph that's numbered 9? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: It says: 11 "We are not hindering the elected 12 Kettle Point Council or people from 13 joining us, but they do not represent 14 us in any way, shape or form." 15 And did you see that notice from the 16 Stoney Point First Nation around that time? And you'll 17 see it's signed by -- 18 A: Yes, we received this. 19 Q: Yeah. And when you saw that, did you 20 have concern at that point that as between January of 21 1993 and May of 1993, that there was a change in the 22 group's desire to work with the Kettle and Stony Point 23 Band? 24 A: Well, during the course of our 25 meetings, I think positions changed. As time went
1751 along -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: -- there were changes that had 4 occurred and -- and this probably was a time when there 5 was a change. 6 Q: Yeah, okay. And we've heard that in 7 June of 1993, that there was the start of negotiations 8 with the Department of National Defence -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- by the Kettle and Stony Point 11 Band? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it that you and the 14 Council, as part of your efforts to keep people informed, 15 would have had meetings -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- to let people know what was going 18 on with the negotiations and what the issues were. Can 19 you recall whether or not members -- people from the 20 Stoney Point Group would attend those meetings? 21 A: At one (1) point in particular, I 22 believe -- I think Norm Shawnoo was a chairman of the -- 23 I'm pretty sure it was Norm that was a chairman on the 24 negotiating committee and there were a lot of people 25 involved in the negotiations, both -- both from the
1761 Stoney Point Group and -- and -- and the Kettle and Stony 2 Point Group. There were -- there were extended 3 negotiating committee and everyone had a lot of 4 representatives there. And I believe the group got so 5 large, it kind of got unmanageable. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: Because it was negotiating in a huge 8 rom with a lot of people and very -- the movement was 9 very slow. But -- but we did open it up. The 10 negotiations were opened up. People were on 11 participating and -- and I think that's around this time 12 when this was working that way. 13 Q: Right. Now, one (1) of the things 14 that we've heard previously, Chief Bressette, was around 15 July of 1993, that members of the Kettle and Stony Point 16 Band and members of the Stoney Point group had met in 17 Gord Peters' office, -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- and had come up with a draft 20 agreement on how they were going to be working together. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I just wanted to track through a 23 little about what happened with that agreement. The 24 agreement, the Draft Agreement that we've seen is 25 Exhibit P-228. Pardon me?
1771 And the Document Number is -- I thought I 2 was so clever in just getting the Exhibit, because I know 3 he's being yelled at for not saying the exhibit number. 4 A: I have this. 5 Q: Okay. That's great. And I take it 6 that that is the draft agreement, and that would have 7 been something that you saw and something that you were 8 working on? 9 A: I think this -- 10 Q: Oh, you know, I've made -- I've made 11 a -- sorry, I've made a mistake. If you hold onto that, 12 because I want to refer to it too. But there's actually 13 another document that came before that, and that is 14 Exhibit P-227 and that's a draft dated July 14th, 1993, 15 the agreement on working relations. 16 Let me start off with that one, Chief 17 Bressette, because I think I got it backwards here. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Okay. So I take it that if you can 20 have a look at that, if that looks like the draft that 21 you and the Stoney Point group, you being you and the 22 Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point Band and the 23 Stoney Point group were working on? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Henderson...?
1781 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, I 2 know Commission Counsel has in the past used the term, 3 minutia. If we are going through drafts of an agreement, 4 that only lasted for a couple of months in 1993, that the 5 Chief has already described, I don't think we're 6 advancing towards either of our goals of getting relevant 7 evidence or completing the Chief's evidence today. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 9 never know exactly where it's going, but -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. -- Mr. 11 Commissioner, I don't intend to ask Chief Bressette about 12 the contents of this particularly. But one (1) of the 13 things that's happened is we have a draft, we have a 14 letter from Mr. Ron George that was giving some suggested 15 amendments to that. And then what we have after that is 16 a separate and different document that's signed by 17 Maynard T. George. 18 And we had heard some evidence from Carl 19 George, that what happened in or about this time, was 20 that from his perspective, the Kettle and Stony Point 21 Band, and the Stony Point group, had sort of come 22 together with an idea in mind about how they were going 23 to work together, and that got derailed. 24 And I just -- and we've heard that 25 evidence, but we didn't actually have the documents then
1791 to identify what had happened and where. And there was a 2 suggestion that was given during Mr. George's evidence, 3 by Commission Counsel, that somehow what Exhibit P-228 4 was, was a rolling version of the document. And Mr. 5 George didn't have a recollection of that. 6 But I believe that Chief Bressette may be 7 able to give us some assistance in terms of the 8 chronology of these documents and what happened. So, 9 it's to clear up that portion of the record, that I'm 10 asking these questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 12 Henderson...? 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I need to thank 14 Ms. Jones for making my point for me. There is no void 15 in the record here. There was discussions leading up to 16 an agreement, there was a meeting, there was an 17 agreement, pursuant to that agreement, someone was hired, 18 and that agreement went off the rails because somebody 19 got greedy and it was terminated. 20 That's the Chief's evidence, that's what 21 the record shows, it need show no more. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can 23 almost put that in a narrative form, I suppose. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, the 25 documents are in front of Chief Bressette. I can take it
1801 through in a narrative form and I just think that'll be 2 clear and it'll be obvious on the transcript what 3 happened. And I don't intend to spend a long time doing 4 it. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's just -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: And it -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As we know 8 from -- Chief Bressette, sometimes does not appreciate 9 being asked the same questions over; no one has asked 10 these questions of Chief Bressette, so we're not in 11 danger of that. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But if they 14 are minutiae, then I suspect that we would be wasting his 15 time so -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm trying to be 17 careful and not go over ground people have already done - 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: -- because I understand 20 it's irritating. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. If 22 you can do it in a -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: And as I say, I would 24 have thought this would be about a minute and a quarter 25 once the documents --
1811 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it's a 2 minute and a quarter then we've taken longer than that to 3 object to it. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right, we have. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. If 6 you go through it in a narrative way -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then we 9 can get through it fairly quickly. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Okay. So, in -- Chief Bressette, 13 just -- I'm going to feed you a little bit here and you 14 can tell me if this is right or this is wrong; that in or 15 about July of 1993 members of the Kettle and Stony Point 16 Band and members of the Stoney Point Group met in Gord 17 Peters' office and came up with a draft memorandum which 18 was an agreement on working relationships that would 19 govern how the negotiated the return of the land, is that 20 fair? 21 A: Well, we did meet in the office and-- 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: -- we -- we had a draft agreement. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Our legal counsel put it together,
1821 they sent it to us -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- and despite the -- whatever 4 Maynard did, we made certain requests for amendments to 5 the agreement -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- and there were documents exchanged 8 and at the end of the day we -- we came to a conclusion 9 and I believe we finalized the agreement that brought on 10 board Mr. E.E. Hobbs. And that's what the whole reason 11 for this agreement was, for him to do an analysis and a 12 review of that work. 13 And ultimately, the agreement was 14 terminated because there were escalating costs around a 15 hundred and seventy-nine thousand dollars ($179,000) and 16 the contract was for a hundred thousand dollars 17 ($100,000). And we -- we got into difficulty over that 18 and they terminated the whole process. 19 Q: Right. And just... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1831 Q: And as I understand, Chief Bressette, 2 and again, this is just to clarify, if you look at Tab 9 3 of the minutes of the Kettle and Stony Point Band. And 4 I'm sorry to take you back and forth between books. 5 You'll see that at Tab 9 there is the minutes of the 6 special Council meeting dated September 13th, 1993. 7 And there's some -- under Section A 8 "Community Meetings and Locatees Issue", there's some 9 discussion about the working group and an agreement 10 between the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Stoney 11 Point Group? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there's a mention there that 14 after two (2) month's delay, Council decided not to sign 15 the document due to the fact that the other group created 16 another document and did not sign or return a copy to 17 Council. 18 And I take it that that document that was 19 created and that wasn't signed and returned is the 20 document before you that's Exhibit 228 and that's the 21 document that was put together by Maynard T. George and 22 signed by him? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1841 Q: And, Chief Bressette, could I ask you 2 then to turn to Tab 13 of the minutes, which is the 3 minutes of the regular Council meeting of November 2, 4 1993. And if you turn to page 2 of those minutes, 5 there's a review of the findings of the people that were 6 working for E.E. Hobbs and about the fact that they had 7 identified that there was one (1) Band and not two (2). 8 And then there's discussion in the second 9 bullet point below there about having a meeting with the 10 other group in Toronto last Friday, October 29th, 1993 -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you see that? And according to 13 these minutes and according to what was reported back to 14 Council, the other group and by that I take it it's the 15 Stoney Point group, were -- had accepted that finding by 16 E.E. Hobbs and what I wanted to ask you, Chief Bressette, 17 is in or about this time, that is in late November or 18 around November of 1993 in the winter, did you have 19 discussions with Carl George or any of the other Stoney 20 Point group people about the issue of one (1) Band or two 21 (2) Bands so you had some sense of their views? 22 A: I talked to Carl all the time and -- 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: -- never really did have any 25 disagreements with him. Maybe politically on a few
1851 issues, but politics and people are two (2) different 2 things and, you know, we never, ever exchanged any -- any 3 bad dialogue between each other. 4 What discussions you're relating to, you 5 would have to tell me and what reference they are to. 6 Q: The -- I'm not -- I'm not referring 7 to a specific reference for example, someone has given 8 evidence. But I saw that reference in the minutes and I 9 was wondering, because it's someone reporting something 10 to you -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- whether or not you would have had 13 a chance about that time to confirm if that was true or 14 at least if you were having discussions with Carl George? 15 A: At this time? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: I don't think so. I think this was a 18 report that was being brought to us by -- by Paul Powers 19 and David Ross and they were basically bringing what they 20 had stated what had occurred and when we asked about 21 their invoices, they submitted how much would they -- 22 they be, and they told us two hundred and ninety thousand 23 dollars ($290,000) and -- and initially what we discussed 24 with Mr. Hobbs is for a hundred thousand (100,000), so 25 that's where we kind of disagreed on -- on their
1861 continuing the contract, because it appeared they were 2 starting to gouge us for money. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: And had gone above and beyond the 5 rates at which they had quoted us, so. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: I mean that was the end of that. As 8 far as if I had discussed this with Carl or anyone else, 9 no. 10 Q: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Henderson...? 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, if 14 that was seventy-five (75) seconds, I am once again 15 twenty-eight (28) years old. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: This -- this is - 18 - it is wasting the Chief's time, to use your own phrase. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I know 20 that Mr. Millar went over some of these things in his 21 examination and I'm not sure what you're doing, but let's 22 continue. 23 Are you finished with that report? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: I am. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, okay.
1871 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I didn't actually ask 4 that question of the Chief. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I have tried to be very 6 careful, Mr. Commissioner, and I assume that you or Mr. 7 Henderson or Chief Bressette will say something if you 8 think I am asking a question that's already been asked. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: Chief Bressette, we heard from Carl 14 George when he gave evidence that he had some particular 15 views on what should happen with the land at the base. 16 I'd asked him a number of questions about who should 17 negotiate for the land, who the land should be returned 18 to and compensation and that kind of thing. 19 And his view, he said, was that the land 20 should be returned to the Kettle and Stoney Point Band 21 and that compensation, if any compensation was coming 22 forth, should come to the Kettle and Stoney Point Band. 23 In the course of your discussions with 24 him, did you -- did you get that information from him 25 about his personal views?
1881 A: It was like I said, I talked to Carl 2 and, you know, people's opinions change throughout time 3 and I think you'll find that with a large number of 4 people who were involved. And I think if he stated that, 5 I would have to agree if that's his position, yes. 6 Q: Yeah, okay. And then moving onto 7 1994, we saw yesterday that an announcement had been made 8 in 1994, by the Federal Government, that Ipperwash Base 9 would be returned to the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 10 And I just wanted to now move on to 1994 and ask you a 11 few questions. 12 And what I wanted to do was take you to 13 the Minutes of the General Band Meeting, and I think 14 you'll find them at Tab 18. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I wanted to ask you a few 17 questions about that meeting, because it looks like that 18 was one of the opportunities where you really fully 19 reviewed, with people that attended the meeting, some of 20 the issues that were arising. And it's also one of the 21 meetings that Carl George attended. 22 And, to start off on page 2, I take it 23 that you, and I'm looking halfway down the page, starting 24 at the sentence, and I think it's about the second-last 25 sentence in that first long paragraph, that says:
1891 "As long -- well there's some folks 2 occupying this land, and I don't think 3 they're going to be prepared to go in 4 there as long as there is anybody 5 sitting on the land. As long as 6 they're there, they hinder the process 7 of the environmental assessment going 8 ahead, and as such may let the 9 Government of Canada off the hook, by 10 saying the Band refused to let them go 11 in and clean up that land." 12 And I take it by reviewing that, that you 13 were communicating to the Council and to any other people 14 that attended -- 15 A: Yes 16 Q: -- that the occupation was an ongoing 17 problem in terms of the negotiation that you were having 18 with the Government? 19 A: Yes. But I -- I hope you're not 20 going into our claims, because -- 21 Q: I am absolutely not going into your 22 claims, at all. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: And if you turn to Tab, sorry, to 25 page 9, and you'll see the section that starts, Gerald
1901 George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And we reviewed that and -- and 4 reviewed that with Gerald, I believe, about his concern 5 about some people from Kettle and Stoney Point, having 6 problems when they went down to the Base, in terms of 7 having access. 8 And what I wanted to ask you, Chief 9 Bressette, was this one of the early occasions when you 10 first heard that complaint, or had you heard it a little 11 earlier than that? 12 A: I -- I heard complaints, I guess, if 13 you're looking at what was being discussed there, about 14 people are not hindered from fishing off the shores of 15 Kettle Point, but they couldn't go fish off the shores of 16 Stoney Point. That was a -- that was a concern -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- that the Band members had, and 19 they said they come down here and fish, but they tell us 20 they can't go down there and fish if we don't have a 21 card. 22 And I think that -- that was generally 23 complaints that were coming into the office, that people 24 didn't want us down there, but they were continuing to 25 come onto the community and we weren't doing anything
1911 about it. 2 And I -- I kind of referred to this 3 before, that we don't sort of stop people from coming on 4 to our land, you know, people have the freedom to come 5 and go. 6 Q: And, if I can ask you, Chief 7 Bressette, to turn to page 12, of the document, and if 8 you want to take a minute to look at that, you ought to. 9 But there's some back and forthing between Carl George 10 and yourself, about what the Stoney Point group wanted. 11 And what Carl -- according to this, what 12 Carl says: 13 "I just want to go back to 1942. 14 Everyone knows there was one Band with 15 two (2) separate land bases. Now what 16 do you want to do?" 17 And you go on at some length talking with 18 Carl about the meetings that you have and that kind of 19 thing, but what I wanted to ask you, Chief Bressette, is 20 we heard at some length from Ron George about some of the 21 complications that were involved in trying to identify 22 who a Stoney Pointer would be. 23 And at the end of the day and you've -- 24 you've -- you've alluded to it as well in talking about 25 tracing through family trees and seeing how family trees
1921 intersect through marriage and other things, it's -- 2 it's obvious that it's quite complicated, but at the end 3 of the day, what Ron George said was, in his view, or at 4 least his view at the time, was that the answer to that 5 was as political answer, that people would, at the end of 6 the day, have to, in essence, self-select or decide what 7 they wanted to do. 8 And I take it that that's consistent with 9 your view as well? 10 A: Well you know, I think Ron was never 11 asked, What's your viewpoint now, today? Like I said, 12 people's viewpoints shift and change in time and no one 13 ever did ask him to clarify what his position was today 14 and I think he would -- he would have answered that if he 15 was asked because, you know, the way things shift and the 16 way things move, initially when you -- when you look at a 17 process, you may not agree with it. 18 But as you become more involved in it you 19 -- you soon become to realize that that process is a way 20 to resolve things and if you follow it, you have a better 21 chance of finding a solution at the end and not going 22 anywhere. But we appear to be stuck and not going 23 anywhere because we're not all sitting down and 24 discussing how can we resolve the differences. 25 And, you know, when you try to do
1931 consensus building, you have to bring -- there have to be 2 willing parties who want to meet a consensus. You have 3 to come together. That's what I -- I was hoping our 4 community would get into, an open dialogue internally and 5 sort of put everything on the table and sort out what the 6 issues are and maybe we'll find a solution. 7 Until we get there, you know, opinions 8 change and people's opinions change and I guess what 9 happened at that point and what's happened in the shift, 10 you know, all -- all I want -- all I've ever wanted is to 11 find a way that all of the community's interests could 12 have been brought together so everybody was happy with 13 the agreement at the end of the day and we wouldn't have 14 these kind of disputes. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: Because we're all somehow connected 17 or -- or related to somebody in some way, shape or form 18 and you know, you -- you can't just draw a line one (1) 19 day and say, I'm no longer with you, go away or whatever 20 because it don't happen that way. Life isn't that way. 21 You're -- if it's a wish that it happens that way, I 22 don't see how, you know, you can bring that kind of 23 closure to something like this. 24 Everybody has interests and they all want 25 them addressed and, you know, it's a difficult position
1941 being a Chief where there's a division in the community. 2 It's frustrating and sometimes you bang your head on the 3 wall and wonder why you do it because it certainly isn't 4 making you any friends or getting you anywhere in the 5 world. So, it's quite frustrating I must say and -- 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: If you'll permit 7 me, Commissioner, I'd like to caution my own Client that 8 his remarks could be interpreted as describing the 9 situation today. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay, well, I wasn't 11 describing them, those are just thoughts that I have and 12 wishes -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 14 THE WITNESS: -- we could find a solution 15 to all of this. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Yeah. Chief Bressette, we've looked 19 at documents earlier and -- and one (1) of the things 20 that you told us yesterday and that -- that was set out 21 in the documents was that the DND had indicated that it 22 wouldn't negotiate with you while there were occupiers on 23 the Base and -- 24 A: Yes, when -- when -- 25 Q: -- and one (1) of the things that
1951 Miles Bressette said to us when he was giving evidence 2 was that that was also your position, that he had heard 3 you speaking on the phone to DND and others, saying that 4 you wouldn't negotiate so long as there were occupiers on 5 the Base. 6 Was that a fair reflection of your views? 7 A: If those were my views, I wouldn't be 8 talking to the government today and I am talking to the 9 government today. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And Miles Bressette has his own 12 opinion in the world and I have mine and he can say what 13 he likes, I disagree with what he says. 14 Q: Okay. One of the things, as you know 15 that happens, Chief Bressette, is over the course of 16 time, people say things and sometimes they say what other 17 people -- you know, they give their interpretation and 18 it's helpful if you have a chance to talk about your own 19 intentions, too, which is why I want to do that. 20 Chief Bressette, if I could have put 21 before you Exhibit P-213, which is an article entitled, 22 "Campers, Cottagers harassed," and it's -- it's actually 23 2001825 and 2001826. 24 And what this is, Chief Bressette, and for 25 the assistance of Counsel is an article from the London
1961 Free Press, dated Tuesday, May 24th, 1994. 2 And again, Chief Bressette, if you want a 3 minute to look at it, you ought to take that minute. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And, Chief Bressette, you're of 8 course welcome to read the whole article, but what I 9 really wanted to ask you about was the quote from you 10 that's on the third column of the first page. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you'll see on that -- the first 17 two (2) columns talk about incidents that have been 18 happening in the area around the Provincial Park and the 19 beach and there's a indication in the third column, it 20 says: 21 "Stoney Point Chief Carl George and 22 Kettle Point Chief Tom Bressette both 23 said the Campaign of harassment is 24 being waged by a group of militant 25 young hotheads, not all of them from
1971 the immediate area and not all of them 2 natives." 3 And, Chief Bressette, you had talked a 4 little bit on the first day that you gave evidence about 5 some of the concerns that were -- you were hearing from 6 the community about what was going on, on the base. 7 And can you give some -- some assistance, 8 did that really start to grow over the summer and the 9 fall of 1994 from your perception? 10 A: Well we were basically involved with 11 a claim, West Ipperwash area, that isn't resolved yet, 12 so, you know, there's -- there's a lot to be said about 13 what this article states and about what my feelings are 14 and because we're still under negotiations, I'm hesitant 15 to deal with this particular article, because two (2) of 16 the people in the picture here are -- were involved in 17 that -- in that whole incident. 18 So I really don't want to -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- comment on this. 21 Q: Okay. The particular area I wanted 22 to look at was under the sight of you and Chief Carl 23 George talking about there being a group of, "militant 24 young hotheads not all from the immediate area." 25 Was that -- was that your perception at
1981 the time? 2 A: Well I didn't know who was doing 3 what. You know, I -- I had my own problems -- 4 Q: Sure. 5 A: -- I was trying to deal with. 6 Q: Sure, sure. And we've also heard 7 some evidence previously, Chief Bressette, that in or 8 around November of 1994 there were a series of incidents 9 where stolen cars were going onto the Base, and were 10 being burned or were being looted, was that a situation 11 that you were aware of? 12 A: Well, I had heard about it and, you 13 know, realistically, a lot of the incidents of the cars 14 being stolen, taken and burned, a lot of times were not 15 Native people doing that. They were people doing that to 16 assist their friends in receiving money for it. 17 And I think, you know, the police should 18 have done a better follow-up on that because, you know, 19 that's why I say, sometimes in the media things are 20 reported and it gives a bad impression. 21 We've had people breaking into cottages in 22 our community and they're not our people doing it, 23 they're other people. They caught one individual and 24 they put him in our jail and he confessed immediately 25 because he thought he was going to be stuck in an Indian
1991 jail for a long time, and he was terrified, and soon as 2 an OPP officer came in, he immediately confessed to that 3 and other crimes in the area he had done. 4 So, it always isn't our people, but when 5 the press says because it happened on a Reserve, 6 automatically we are pinpointed to that. 7 Q: Sure. 8 A: So that's what I understand a lot of 9 times occurs, and I'm not saying that's regular because 10 there are some instances when Native people have been 11 caught and charged and sent to -- to jail for -- for 12 doing what you're saying, steeling cars. 13 But, I don't know, it's -- it's a 14 combination of, I think, everybody's doing it, and it 15 really shouldn't be us that are always the ones that felt 16 we do it. But, yes, that was going on -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- and it continues to go on. 19 Q: Yeah. And we've also heard that in 20 the spring of 1995, and there's a little bit of backing 21 and forthing about dates and this and that, that Carl 22 George was no longer the Chief of the Stoney Point Band. 23 And I wanted to ask you, you had made 24 reference earlier about the change or the effect on the 25 dynamics of negotiating when Maynard T. George resigned.
2001 Did you find that when Carl George left 2 the Base, or was no longer acting as Chief for the Stoney 3 Point group, did you find that there was again a change 4 in the dynamics in the relationship between the Kettle 5 and Stoney Point Band and the Stoney Point group? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: Okay. And in particular, Chief 8 Bressette, did you find that over the next period of 9 time, that is the early spring and the summer, that there 10 was an increase in hostility or an increase in, sort of, 11 vocal accusations or allegations against the Kettle and 12 Stoney Point Band and yourself? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And, Chief Bressette, I then 15 wanted to move onto the summer of 1995, because I 16 anticipate that we will hear evidence that by the end of 17 June or early July, 1995, that the Military had planned 18 to leave the Base, and had planned to leave the Base in 19 or around August 16th. 20 And I wanted to ask you if that was 21 information that you had, or you had had discussions with 22 Captain Smith at the time about that? 23 A: Well, all I know is he ran out of the 24 Base in the middle of the night and left the gates wide 25 open. That's all I know, and that's what happened,
2011 that's a fact. 2 Q: Sure. You don't recall having 3 discussions with him about the Military pulling out on or 4 about August 16th? 5 A: No, he never -- he never informed us. 6 We were -- I'm not sure if we were in Council or 7 something, we -- we just heard about that. 8 Q: Okay. And did you ever have 9 discussions with him or with the OPP about wanting the 10 Band Police to take over the policing of the Base, or 11 some combination of the Kettle and Stoney Point Police 12 and perhaps the OPP, perhaps some other people when and 13 if the Military left the Base? 14 A: Well, if we did discuss it, it surely 15 never happened. I'm not sure what happened at that time 16 with regards to that. I -- I can't recall clearly in my 17 mind. 18 Q: Okay. Would it give you any 19 assistance, Chief Bressette, if I take you to a document 20 that speaks to that? You may find it helpful, you may 21 not. You may agree with it and you may not, I don't 22 know, but -- 23 A: Well, I -- I know there was always 24 discussions -- 25 Q: Right.
2021 A: -- and suggestions we should do 2 something. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: If there's -- maybe I could see the 5 document if you have it? 6 Q: I do and I will. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And, Chief Bressette, what -- what 11 I'd like to do to give you a little bit of continuity is 12 actually take you to two (2) documents, because the 13 document that -- that speaks to these discussions is one, 14 but there's a document before that that might help you in 15 terms of some of the context. 16 And I'm wondering if we could put up on 17 the screen for Chief Bressette -- Now, Mr. Commissioner, 18 I'm in a terrible spot here because my index is missing a 19 page and that's the page the document's on. 20 Could I just have one (1) minute and I'll 21 see if I can sort that out? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you
2031 okay, Chief Bressette, to continue for a bit longer or 2 you need a break? We've been going an hour and fifteen 3 (15) minutes since we started? Are you okay? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I wouldn't mind a 5 break. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You wouldn't 7 mind a break? Why don't we take a short break. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: That'd be great and 9 then I can sort out my documents and I won't waste Chief 10 Bressette's time. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for ten (10) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 2:47 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 3:00 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're just waiting for 22 some photocopies -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a long 24 day. 25 THE WITNESS: Through all this reading.
2041 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Chief Bressette, I'm sorry for the 6 delay, we're just getting a few -- documents photocopied 7 because I wanted to make sure you had a chance to look at 8 them. 9 And as I said, maybe they'll refresh your 10 memory about what was happening in the summer and maybe 11 they won't. You had said that was a hectic time for you 12 and if they don't just let me know and -- 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: -- then we won't fuss about that. 15 You told us a little bit and you just said recently about 16 your concerns about the Military leaving the Base, in 17 essence with the gate open. 18 Did you know at the time, in or around 19 July 29th, 1995, the circumstances under which the 20 Military had left the Base, how that happened on that 21 day? 22 A: Not -- not really clear on that. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I -- I do know there was a -- a group 25 who went in there and I think that's the reason they
2051 left. 2 Q: Yeah, did you know -- 3 A: That's all I -- 4 Q: You didn't know any of the details 5 about what happened that day? 6 A: I think in the news, if this was the 7 right time, there was a -- something about a bus backed 8 into a gate or whatever, if that's the time. It may be 9 around the same time, I'm not sure. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 14 thank you, Katherine. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: And just to sort of -- and, Chief 18 Bressette, just to let you know the order that these are 19 in, you'll see a document that is entitled, "The period 20 covered" -- sorry, "Situation report Number 013", and for 21 the assistance of Counsel that's 700321. 22 There's three (3) of them and they -- 23 they're not -- the next one is "Situation Report Number 24 23" and for the assistance of Counsel that's 7000338 and 25 then the next one is "Situation report Number 24" and
2061 that's 7000339. 2 That just helps you, maybe, Chief 3 Bressette, with the order in which you want to look at 4 them. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: What particular document do you -- 9 all three (3)? Do you want me to look at -- or... 10 Q: Starting off with the situation 11 report Number 13, the portion of it that I wanted to take 12 you, was on the first page. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: Where it talks about the cross- 15 cultural awareness training being conducted. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you'll see there that under 2(g) 18 that Dick Bressette, an Elder from Kettle and Stony Point 19 Band attended the session? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you know Dick Bressette? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you know from him or hear from 24 him that he was attending the session and what was going 25 on?
2071 And the reason I'm asking you that, Chief 2 Bressette, in particular if you turn over the page under 3 Number 3, it talks about that during the -- the course of 4 the cross-cultural awareness training that was run by 5 Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone; that a plan was developed 6 that would include the Kettle -- Kettle and Stony Point 7 Band, the Stoney Point group, M. and M. Dillon, the OPP, 8 the Kettle and Stony Point Band police and some DND 9 people. 10 As well as Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah in 11 meeting and coming up with a way to resolve a number of 12 the outstanding issues, including the environmental 13 assessment, policing of the base during the period of 14 time that the military was gone and that kind of thing. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And were you aware of that, Chief 17 Bressette? 18 A: I -- we must have been if there was a 19 representative from our Council on there. 20 Q: Okay, but you personally don't have-- 21 A: No, I -- 22 Q: -- a recollection -- 23 A: -- personally -- 24 Q: -- of that? 25 A: -- didn't have any --
2081 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- any involvement with this. 3 Q: Okay. The other -- the other two (2) 4 documents, Chief Bressette, that I handed copies up to 5 you, the only part in them that I think is of concern to 6 you, if it is at all, is that there's mention in both 7 those documents about Bob Antone speaking with Tom 8 Bressette about attending this meeting on August 26th, 9 1995. 10 And all I wanted to ask you was if you 11 recall being approached by Bob Antone? 12 A: I talked to Mr. Antone on several 13 occasions. 14 Q: Sure. So you recall talking to him 15 about this meeting that was scheduled for August 26th? 16 A: I -- I may have, like, I'm not really 17 clear on -- 18 Q: Okay. And if -- if you don't recall, 19 it's fine. One (1) of the things is, you may note, Chief 20 Bressette, is people have different recollections and I 21 imagine that these people will be able to talk about what 22 happened too. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. I wanted -- I wanted then to 25 move on, Chief Bressette, and look at the situation as it
2091 existed from your perspective, -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in August of 1995, because at that 4 point in time, and just to let you know, the time frame 5 I'm looking at; at that point in time, the occupation of 6 the built-up area of the Base had taken place. 7 And the Kettle and Stony Point Band had 8 met, and had come up with the view that it ought to 9 deliver the letter to the Stoney Point group, and that 10 had been rejected. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I think we saw in one (1) of the 13 minutes of the Kettle and Stony Point Band Meeting, that 14 Carl George had offered to speak with Clifford, and see 15 if they could resolve anything. 16 And, I take it, nothing came out of that? 17 A: I don't think so. 18 Q: Yeah. And so I want to take you to 19 the environment that was at that time, that in August of 20 1995, after those things had happened. 21 And you've told us that the Council and 22 Band didn't approve of the occupation of the built-up 23 area, and I take it that you, yourself, didn't condone 24 that? 25 A: No.
2101 Q: Okay. And that the Band and Council, 2 and I take it, yourself, wouldn't have approved of 3 tactics that would involve confrontation and violence? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And that at that point in time, I 6 take it from the Minutes of the August 1, 1995 Meeting, 7 that more of the people from Kettle and Stony Point Band 8 had been denied access to the Base? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Even though they had very strong ties 11 to that land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it in your view at that 14 time, and particularly after Carl George left, acting as 15 Chief on the Base, that there was no one on the Base that 16 you could negotiate with or talk to? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it that you had satisfied 19 yourself that no one, that you could figure out, could 20 accomplish getting negotiations in place or opening up 21 those lines of communication at the Band -- at the Base? 22 A: Well, we tried to. I think we asked 23 who was in charge, and they said, nobody's in charge, and 24 we could never get anyone to say who was -- who was in 25 charge in the area at that time.
2111 Q: Sure. And you told us about the 2 efforts that you had made with mediators, the efforts 3 that you had made to get Ovide Mercredi involved, and 4 none of that worked, in terms of -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- opening lines of communication. 7 And people on the Kettle and Stony Point Band who had 8 personal connections with people on the Base, weren't 9 able to do that either? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And I think you told us 12 earlier that, in your view, a number of people were, and 13 I think the word that might be a better word to use, were 14 gullible, on the Base, and that they could be susceptible 15 to paying attention to people without really looking at 16 what was going on? 17 A: Well, I -- I would categorize it as 18 not having a thorough knowledge of some of the 19 information they were being provided with, no research 20 into it, or -- or that type of thing. 21 Q: And I take it that your view would be 22 a number of those people would be particularly 23 susceptible to what they were told by what's been 24 classified as, the outsiders coming in? 25 A: Well, like, I think that was a
2121 generalization of what a lot of people felt, that there 2 was -- 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: -- bad influence coming in, and it 5 was stated at a Band meeting and questioned why they were 6 there. They weren't from here, they weren't from around 7 here, what were they doing there, why were they denying 8 access? 9 Q: Okay. Now one (1) of the people that 10 you've mentioned, Chief Bressette, was Les Jewel. And I 11 wonder if you could tell us what you knew about him or 12 what your particular concern was with him? 13 A: I didn't know a whole lot about him. 14 I know at one (1) point I had a -- a discussion with him 15 and he told me -- he -- he tried to tell me how the 16 financing in Canada worked. 17 And he stated that all of the revenue that 18 was generated in Canada had to be paid to the Department 19 of Indian Affairs because we owned the country and that 20 they, in turn, would pay it out to the other departments, 21 pay it out to the provinces and things like that. And 22 that's what he had told me. 23 And I -- I knew better than to believe a 24 story like that because I -- I had been involved in 25 looking at how the government operated. And I knew the
2131 process and that -- that operates this country and how 2 monies are disseminated to provinces, to various 3 departments of the Federal Government. 4 In turn, that money's filtered down 5 through -- from Provincial Governments and our ministries 6 to provide programs and services. So I didn't accept 7 what he was saying and I thought he -- 8 Q: In fact, you knew it was crazy talk. 9 A: Yes, 10 Q: Yeah, yeah. And I take it that as of 11 that time in August of 1995 you and no one from the 12 Kettle and Stony Point Band had any control over the 13 occupiers? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And I take it so far as you knew, no 16 on did? 17 A: I didn't know. 18 Q: Yeah, one (1) way or the other. And 19 I take it you'd agree, Chief Bressette, that as of that 20 period of time there was a real recipe for a problem on 21 the Base in that there was no accountable leadership -- 22 A: Well -- 23 Q: -- no communication and it didn't 24 seem like anyone was in charge or in control? 25 A: Well, I -- I don't know that.
2141 Q: No. 2 A: I wasn't there so I can't really -- 3 Q: No. 4 A: -- comment on that. 5 Q: No, but from your perspective and 6 given the efforts that you had tried to find out if 7 there -- 8 A: Well, there -- 9 Q: -- was a leader and to try and 10 communicate and to try and open up those lines. I take 11 it that your view, at that time, was that it was a real 12 problem area? 13 A: Well, I don't know really how they 14 were operating, who was doing what or who was making 15 decisions. I -- I really don't know. I know there was a 16 structure there when -- when Carl was there and -- and I 17 know I communicated with him and he didn't have no 18 problem with calling me -- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- and discussing things with me and 21 that ended. I don't know what happened after he left. 22 Q: Yeah. And in terms of -- of your 23 point made earlier about people not getting facts and 24 sort of jumping to conclusions, you were asked some 25 questions yesterday about the money that the Band had
2151 that came out of the 1980 payment. 2 And I take it that during -- so far as 3 you're aware, that at least during the period 1993 to 4 1995, none of the occupiers from the Base came and looked 5 at the books or made that kind of inquiry so that they 6 would know what was going on? 7 A: No, but I'm not sure. I would have 8 to check. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: But I know there three (3) different 11 instances where document -- documentation was produced 12 and it was submitted to the -- the -- I don't like to say 13 this, but the negotiating committee did have a large 14 number. They looked into this and it -- it's continually 15 raised and -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- one (1) of our Councillors was, I 18 guess serving in '82 and still serves today, said you 19 know, I'm getting tired of being this question. If 20 people would look at the document that was voted on, half 21 the money was to go to the Band for providing services to 22 the community. 23 Why is this always being raised as an 24 issue? That agreement was lived up to, but -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you
2161 really want to go into this, Ms. Jones? Is this some 2 area that you really want to pursue? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I actually just had one 4 (1) question, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 6 you might and we're just sitting here and we're not 7 moving forward. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: No, no, that's it, Mr. 9 Commissioner, that's fine. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Chief Bressette, I wanted to ask you a 13 question about the burial grounds on -- in the Park. And 14 that is that we heard from Carl George that he had -- had 15 brought over to Kettle and Stony Point some boxes that 16 were sort of the results of Maynard T. George's research? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Have you seen those boxes or been 19 through them? 20 A: I didn't go through them personally. 21 I think those boxes were put back into a catalogue 22 structure of -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- documentation that we have there 25 and at the time when that information was brought in, it
2171 was turned over to Legal Counsel. And they -- it's 2 still, I guess, in the realms of negotiation so I really 3 can't comment about it. 4 Q: Okay, I'm not asking -- in particular 5 one (1) of the things that we heard that at least at one 6 (1) point in time, Maynard T. George had a hand drawn map 7 that he said represented where burial sites were in the 8 Park. 9 Did you see that or is that something 10 that's -- 11 A: I didn't see -- 12 Q: -- in the Band's possession? 13 A: -- that, no. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it, so far as you 15 know, that's not something that the Kettle and Stony 16 Point Band has, or do you know? 17 A: There was extensive amount of 18 research done in the negotiating committee and that 19 information is within those negotiations. I -- I don't 20 have, I guess, shouldn't be talking about it -- 21 Q: And I -- 22 A: -- because we're in -- 23 Q: -- and -- 24 A: -- negotiations. 25 Q: Yeah, yeah, and I don't want to get
2181 into that. One (1) of the things, of course, when 2 someone says that there's a document that might be 3 helpful is you wonder whether the document might be. So 4 I just wanted to ask you if you'd seen it or if you knew 5 about it. 6 A: I didn't see it, no. 7 Q: Okay. And I then wanted to take you, 8 Chief Bressette, very briefly and I'm almost done, to the 9 period after September the 6th, 1995. 10 You were talking a little bit about the 11 atmosphere of tension and upset and hostility at that 12 period of time and I understand that during the week or 13 weeks after that, that a death threat was made against 14 you. 15 Do you recall that? 16 A: I have a lot of death threats against 17 me, so -- 18 Q: Is that right? 19 A: -- I don't know, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And I understand during that 21 period of time that the Band and the Kettle and Stony 22 Point Police were also dealing with death threats against 23 Ovide Mercredi? Do you recall that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yeah. And lastly, Chief Bressette,
2191 or very close to lastly, I just wanted to ask you a 2 question about the Band's response after September 6, 3 2995. 4 One (1) of the criticisms that I think 5 some people have raised is that there weren't, excuse me, 6 or there wasn't support for people after September the 7 6th. And one of the documents in the Cerlox bound brief, 8 the Kettle -- the Kettle and Stony Point minutes and 9 specifically at Tab 31. 10 And, if you turn over to the second page, 11 there's a section that's entitled "Crisis Response Team". 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I took from reviewing that, that the 14 Kettle and Stony Point Band had actually provided 15 services in this particular area, especially to children 16 or kids who were in school that needed support and 17 counselling. And you'll see that under Motion Number 3, 18 "The Council supports the crisis 19 response team in the Kettle and Stony 20 Point Hillside School for immediate 21 intervention." 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I take it from reading that, that 24 the Kettle and Stony Point Band put together a community 25 crisis response team generally?
2201 A: Yes. 2 Q: For the benefit of the Kettle and 3 Stony Point Band? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it that anyone who was a 6 member of the Kettle and Stony Point Band had access to 7 those services? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Is that right? And lastly, Chief 10 Bressette, a number of witnesses have been asked about 11 their opinion on whether or not, for example, the 12 occupations and then Dudley George's death, were things 13 that contributed to the negotiations? 14 And I take it from your evidence, Chief 15 Bressette, that you would say the occupations and the 16 unfortunate events of September the 6th, interfered with 17 negotiations and slowed down the process? 18 A: Well, not really when -- when you 19 look back at Ron Irwin showing up, he did come in and we 20 -- we actually established a Memorandum of Understanding. 21 But when I think back now to what -- what 22 occurred, everybody was trying to cover their tracks, so 23 to speak, to try and demonstrate that they were actively 24 trying to do something and I -- I think a lot about 25 things like that, and --
2211 Q: Sure. 2 A: -- everything has an impact as you 3 move along, no matter what it is, there's a pressure 4 exerted -- 5 Q: Sure. 6 A: -- from the Band Council, the Chief-- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- who took the position we're not 9 going to work with you anymore, we want our land back. 10 And -- and all of the processes that been involved from, 11 probably, ever since they rejected our proposal to try 12 and work out jointly with them on a pro-management 13 effort, at least trying to get involved in some way to 14 create employment for our people off of our own -- but 15 we'd -- we still deem to be our own land, that all of 16 these things contributed and added to the pressures that 17 were on Government to deal with it, as well as protests, 18 letters, petitions, that were sent to the Government. 19 So there was a whole lot of things that 20 were -- were pressuring the Government. I can't 21 specifically point to one and say, that's the thing that 22 triggered it. That's -- 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: -- that's my own personal assessment. 25 Q: Okay. And those are all my
2221 questions. Thank you very much, Chief Bressette. 2 A: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Ms. Jones. 5 I think the next Examiner is Peter 6 Downard. 7 Ms. Jones, you stayed very close to your 8 estimated time. Thank you very much. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Good afternoon, 15 Commissioner. 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 18 Q: Good afternoon, Chief Bressette. My 19 name is Peter Downard, and I appear for the former 20 Ontario Premier, Mike Harris. And I'd just like to ask 21 you a few questions about this matter. 22 Now, you've mentioned in your evidence 23 that Maynard T. George calls himself a King these days, 24 and I don't intend to explore that with you, but I take 25 it that you would agree with me that, in your many years
2231 as a Chief of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band, you 2 haven't had the luxury of being a Monarch, you've gone to 3 the people regularly in elections; right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you're re-elected every two (2) 6 years? 7 A: Yes. I'm not re-elected every two 8 (2) years, there's an election every two (2) years. 9 Q: Well, indeed. You are hopefully re- 10 elected when you choose to stand? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Right. And -- and so through that 13 process, obviously you get your authority from a broad 14 support among your people, that they express with their 15 votes; right? 16 A: That's what the process is supposed 17 to be, I guess, yeah. That's your interpretation. I -- 18 I'm one is it's Indian Affairs who made it that way, and 19 they dictate the terms. 20 So if that's supposed to generate that, I 21 -- I don't know that our people would say that's a 22 genuine depiction of what it is, it's just somebody who 23 speaks on behalf of the community. I don't know that 24 there's any power in it. I don't feel there's any power 25 in it.
2241 Q: But at least through the election 2 process, you get a democratic mandate from the people who 3 vote? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And as I understand it from your 6 evidence, in addition to participating in these regular 7 elections, you make efforts to consult with your 8 community on an ongoing basis? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So -- so that you understand their 11 concerns and you were in touch with their wishes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it that your evidence is 14 very clear, that you've always sought to act in the best 15 interests of the Band membership as a whole, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that includes all the people with 18 historical family ties to the lands at Kettle Point; 19 correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And all the people with historical 22 family ties to the lands at Stoney Point; right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you told Mr. Millar, when he was 25 examining you, that in 1995 there were eighteen hundred
2251 (1,800) or nineteen hundred (1,900) members of the Kettle 2 and Stoney Point First Nation. 3 A: Those are registered members or not, 4 actually all living there? 5 Q: Yes, indeed. So that would include 6 people who were living on the Kettle Point lands and on 7 the Stoney Point lands and people living off either tract 8 of land; right? 9 A: And the United States and Canada. 10 Q: Sure. Now, I don't know how helpful 11 you can be on this, but I'm wondering if you can -- well, 12 actually, let me step back a minute. 13 When we talk about people who have 14 historical family connections to the Stoney Point lands, 15 I take it that that obviously includes any surviving 16 people who were moved off the lands in 1942 and their 17 descendants; right? 18 A: Any, I guess, their heirs, is the way 19 my -- my uncle told me, would ultimately -- who have 20 interest, are heirs. 21 Q: Sure, and as I understand it, prior 22 to 1942, there were also members of the Band who held 23 location tickets for land at Stoney Point who did not 24 actually reside there; correct? 25 A: Yes.
2261 Q: Can you give me any rough estimate of 2 the number of Band members or the portion of Band members 3 who, in approximately 1995, would have had those sorts of 4 family connections to the Stoney Point lands? 5 A: Not right off the top of my head, no, 6 I couldn't. 7 Q: And I'm only asking for a -- a rough 8 estimate. 9 A: Well, I can't tell you that. 10 Q: Would it be fair to say -- 11 A: We -- 12 Q: -- would you -- would you expect it 13 to -- 14 A: We're -- we're in research in our 15 negotiations and that's where it rests and I really don't 16 want to go there. 17 Q: Well, I'm just asking you about what 18 your perception was in 1995 and I don't want to ask you 19 about any federal negotiations. 20 A: Well, you're touching on an issue 21 that is in negotiations right now, so I can't -- I can't 22 answer you. 23 Q: All right, well, we've had an answer 24 to that from some other witnesses and I'll move on to 25 another subject with you.
2271 Now, I don't want to cover ground that Ms. 2 Jones covered, but as I understand it, it's very clear 3 that when the occupation of the ranges started in 1993, 4 you became very concerned that that was going to 5 interfere with the negotiation process at that time; 6 right? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And as early as May and June 1993 you 12 made efforts to communicate with the people occupying the 13 Camp and you were told by them that they didn't want you 14 around; right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And after that, later in 1993, you 17 tried to work with Carl George so you could work together 18 and present a united front. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: But by the time you get to 1995, your 21 efforts to build a co-operative front have come to 22 nothing; right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And we've reviewed in this Inquiry a 25 number of times, the transcript of the meeting that was
2281 held by the Band in early August of 1995, which many 2 people spoke about their concerns about what was going on 3 on the Stoney Point land, and that resulted in your 4 letter to the people there that has been marked as 5 Exhibit 30. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, you told us about how you and 8 other Councillors had essentially formed a delegation to 9 go down to the lands to present that letter; right? 10 A: It's on the record. I don't know why 11 we're covering the same ground. 12 Q: Well, just-- just bear with me and 13 I'll try to get -- get us a little further. 14 And, I take it that when you prepared that 15 letter, you were attempting to reach out in good faith to 16 the people on the occupied lands to communicate with 17 them; right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you told us a story about how you 20 went down there and no one received the letter and the 21 stack was tossed in the truck and so on; right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you subsequently get any 24 response to your letter from the people in occupation at 25 Stoney Point?
2291 A: I don't believe so. 2 Q: Okay. And you said that just as in 3 the spring of 1993, as of September 1995, that you'd been 4 told to stay away from Stoney Point and that you're not 5 welcome; right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And we've covered how Mr. Mercredi's 8 potential mediation was rejected by the occupiers there. 9 Now -- so, I take it that the situation you're in is that 10 your -- your progress in trying to deal with this issue 11 is essentially at a standstill; right? 12 A: Pretty much. 13 Q: And is this one (1) of those 14 situations you referred to where you might be tempted to 15 bang your head against the wall? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as I understand it, there's never 18 been any referendum among the Kettle and Stoney Point 19 membership on Stoney Point separation; right? 20 A: Yeah -- yes. 21 Q: And there's -- there's never been any 22 consultation with the membership as a whole, by the 23 occupiers of Stoney Point; right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And in fact, sir, would you agree
2301 that the people in occupation of Stoney Point, no matter 2 how sincerely they may hold their particular views, in 3 1995 really didn't have any authority to act regarding 4 those lands on behalf of anyone? 5 A: Themselves, I guess. 6 Q: Apart from themselves, would you 7 agree with that? 8 A: I don't know what you mean by 9 authority? 10 Q: Well, they -- they didn't have any 11 democratic mandate like you did; right? 12 A: I had democratic mandate to deal with 13 the elections and the process of looking after the Band's 14 interests, but actually, I don't know who has authority 15 over land. I -- you know, I -- I think that's a very 16 strong argument that one could raise a treaty issue over 17 whether Ontario has a mandate to take, you know, or the 18 Federal Government, for that matter, to take unceded 19 lands away from us that were guaranteed in a treaty. 20 Q: All right, sir, well then, I'm going 21 to leave that point for argument. 22 Now, you said that as far back as 1993, 23 when Maynard T. George began the occupation of the -- the 24 Army Camp, that there was a concern in your community 25 because you had just come through the Oka crisis and your
2311 community didn't want to see that kind of event unfold in 2 your area, right? 3 A: If you read the Band -- general Band 4 minutes that's where it came from, yes. 5 Q: Sure. And back -- back -- well, that 6 was a concern in 1993 and it was again expressed in the 7 meeting in early August of 1995, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And so -- and after you have those 10 concerns the matter escalates with the occupation of the 11 Park at the beginning of September; right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And those are stressful circumstances 14 for you as a leader; right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you've still got the 17 responsibility, not withstanding these stressful 18 circumstances, to attempt to act in the interest of the 19 community as a whole; right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you had to do what you thought 22 was right, in the best interest of the community? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- now, in -- in the course of 25 the occupation of the Park, you've told us you -- you get
2321 this call from Mr. Watts, who's passing on this statement 2 attributed to Mr. Harris. And you've told us all about 3 that. 4 A: Well, you know it's not like Mr. 5 Watts didn't know people in the Ontario government. He 6 worked in there. Maybe somebody didn't agree with the 7 statement that was made and told him about that. 8 I don't think he made it up. I don't see 9 any reason why he would make it up. I -- I don't know. 10 I know Mr. Watts and he's not the kind of guy that goes 11 around generating stories for fantasy sake. 12 Q: We'll we're going to hear from Mr. 13 Watts -- 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: But you made it quite clear in your 16 evidence, sir, that as a general rule, when you get 17 information that's second hand or third hand, it may not 18 be reliable; right? 19 A: Well, that's right. 20 Q: And, for example, on the night of 21 September 6th, you got information that Mr. Cecil Bernard 22 George had been shot, and that turned out to be untrue, 23 right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right, and so I take it you
2331 clearly understood when you got this information from Mr. 2 Watts that it might not be accurate; right? 3 A: Well, the guy worked in the Ontario 4 Native Affairs Secretariat, and why would he call me just 5 to make a story up, is something I wouldn't understand. 6 Q: Okay. Well -- 7 A: And -- and you know when people have 8 those kind of connections, that's why I believed it to be 9 true. 10 You know, you can ask Mr. Watts yourself. 11 You have the opportunity. I'm just telling you what he 12 told me and what I believe. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Well, sir, I want to refer you to an 17 extract from a book that I've had handed up to you. It's 18 a book written by Mr. Peter Edwards and he had chose to 19 title it, perhaps unfortunately, "One Dead Indian." 20 And you'll see, sir, in the extract -- 21 I've provided Pages 92 and 93, and I'd like to take you 22 to Page 93 and this is a passage that refers to your 23 getting a phone call from a source at Queen's Park, and 24 at the top of Page 93 in the first full paragraph, it 25 reads, quote:
2341 "The Chief also knew that people in 2 government often leak messages to see 3 how people would react. Why should he 4 take this one seriously? 5 Quote: I thought it was a whole lot of 6 crap, unquote, Bressette said after the 7 events were over. 8 Quote: I wasn't convinced that anything 9 like that would be accurate. I thought 10 it was like a scare tactic. There was 11 so many rumours flying around. You 12 hear things every day. You never knew 13 whether to take it seriously." 14 Unquote. 15 Now, sir, did you speak to Peter Edwards 16 about these matters? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I beg your pardon? You did not? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: So you're saying that this is an 21 completely inaccurate quote; is that right? 22 A: I don't remember if I did or I didn't 23 is what I'm telling you, but you want to know about Bob 24 Watts, ask Bob Watts. 25 Q: I'm asking you about this quotation
2351 that was attributed to you, sir. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Millar...? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps My Friend will 6 -- will read it and perhaps he will next put this in the 7 proper context, the next paragraph of that -- 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Oh yes, well indeed, 9 I was going to be coming to that momentarily. But I'll 10 deal with that now, I mean. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 13 Q: The next paragraph says, quote: 14 "Still there was something troubling in 15 the caller's voice. The person clearly 16 believed the threatening report enough 17 to risk their job. 18 The Queen's Park contact was well 19 placed and sounded rational. Bressette 20 couldn't just dismiss the call. So the 21 Chief telephoned Lee Michaels, a 22 reporter at Sarnia Radio Station CKOK, 23 a station popular with Natives in the 24 area. Michaels agreed to broadcast a 25 warning to the Native protestors in the
2361 Park, saying that according to the 2 Chief, something bad might be happening 3 there that night," 4 Unquote. 5 Now, sir, indeed, there's no doubt, 6 there's no doubt that even if, or you don't recall today, 7 you had the thoughts that are attributed to you, that 8 I've been putting to you from Mr. Edwards, you decided 9 that you were going to call the media, -- 10 A: I did call the media. 11 Q: Sure. Sure you did. And the reason 12 you did that was because that was a decision that you had 13 to make, in the best interests of your people. You were 14 just acting in good faith; right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And if it turned out the information 17 was false, you were going to err on the side of caution; 18 right? 19 A: I don't know, I just made the report. 20 I reported what I heard. 21 Q: Well, sir, I'm going to -- I'm going 22 to put to you, just to be fair to you, I'm going to put 23 to you that you said to Mr. Edwards, exactly what he 24 quotes you as saying, or at least substantially what he 25 quotes you as saying.
2371 A: Well, I'll agree if you want me to. 2 Q: I just want you to tell the truth, 3 sir. 4 A: I mean you're -- I am telling the 5 truth. I don't know why somebody else don't tell the 6 truth. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, sir, there's been discussion 11 about how, in your evidence, about how the Band retained 12 the Hobbs firm to do historical research. 13 And I take it that their research included 14 research into the circumstances of the 1928 surrender; 15 right? 16 A: I -- I don't know -- I don't really 17 recall off the top of my head right now. I would have to 18 go back into our records and look to see what we 19 discussed. And I'd have to call Michael Sherry 20 (phonetic) at the Chiefs of Ontario, to find out if that 21 in fact was what he was doing or whether he was working 22 to determine the one (1) or two (2) Band issue. 23 Q: All right. Well, setting aside the 24 Hobbs' matter for -- for the moment, we know, if you look 25 at, what I believe is Tab 1, and I think it's your --
2381 your black book, that -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Exhibit P-232. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 5 Q: If we look at that document, you see 6 that's a letter to you from Indian and Northern Affairs 7 Canada, of January 1991, that I believe Mr. Millar took - 8 - took you to in evidence. And in that letter, if you 9 look at the paragraph numbered 1, you were being provided 10 with information regarding the vote. 11 Sorry, you're not there yet? 12 A: No, no. 13 Q: It's at -- 14 A: Yes, I have that. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. You'll see that 16 you were -- you were being provided information regarding 17 the 1928 surrender of the former Stony Point Indian 18 Reserve? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that was something that you had 21 recently requested? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And subsequent -- 24 A: We -- we've never received a voters 25 list on that yet.
2391 Q: Is that right? 2 A: That's right. So there never may 3 have been a vote, so... 4 Q: In terms of documentation, one (1) 5 thing I just want to touch on very briefly, we've seen a 6 lot of historical documentation that came out through 7 this -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 9 Henderson...? 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm not objecting 11 to My Friend's question, so his eyebrows can come down a 12 bit. 13 The -- for the sake of the record, and for 14 whatever relevance it's worth, the Commission materials 15 in Joan Holmes' historical documents, do include a voters 16 list for the 1928 Surrender. 17 So I wouldn't want the Chief, you know, to 18 be stating that. I'm sure he's stating to the best of 19 his knowledge what's there. But the Commission does have 20 that particular list and obviously -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- the First 23 Nation did seek information before submitting a claim in 24 relation to that surrender. On a second point, I've 25 known my Client for many years and it -- it's been an
2401 hour since the last break and I think he's tiring a bit, 2 if we could take five (5) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 4 like to take a short break? We'll take a short break. 5 Thank you very much. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for five (5) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 3:47 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 3:55 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know it's 15 been a long day, Chief, but we're almost done. I think 16 we'd rather get it over with than -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- have to 19 come back, so we'll stay with it a bit longer. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 22 Q: Sir, just as an aside, were all the 23 historical that the Hobbs firm had and that it was 24 working on, were they provided to this Inquiry? 25 A: I don't believe so. I think we got
2411 into a dispute over the invoices. I'm not sure, I'd have 2 to get somebody to check if you want a definite answer. 3 Q: That -- that's all right. I wouldn't 4 trouble you with that, sir, I just was wondering about 5 that point. Other people might take it farther. 6 Now, I was asking you before about a 7 voters list from the 1928 surrender and -- and the letter 8 that was sent to you enclosing -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- or -- or referring to material and 11 I wanted to also refer you to Tab 11 of the book of 12 Council minutes. That's -- so, that's a different book. 13 And this is a document, it's the minutes of the Kettle 14 and Stony Point Council regular meeting of October 5, 15 1993. 16 And there's certain references in this 17 document to a person named Russell, who I -- I take it is 18 Russell Rakes (phonetic) who was the Band's lawyer at the 19 time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, I don't want to ask you anything 22 about any advice that Mr. Rakes may have given to the 23 Band, but I simply note that on the second page these 24 minutes of the October 1993 meeting, in the second 25 paragraph on the second page, there's a reference and I
2421 quote as follows. Quote: 2 "Camp Ipperwash/Stoney Point issue. 3 Russell states that we should be 4 getting an opinion letter from him on 5 the surrender of Stoney Point soon." 6 Unquote. Now, I don't want to know what, 7 if any opinion, he -- he gave you, but it's -- it's clear 8 I take it that in October of 1993, the Band had Mr. Rakes 9 looking at that issue that's referred to in the minutes? 10 A: Did we authorize it? 11 Q: No, that he -- in October of 1993 he 12 was looking at -- at the surrender of Stoney Point. 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: And you've testified already about 15 what the position was regarding a land claim by the Band 16 on the -- the Ipperwash Provincial Park as at September 17 1995. I would just like to refer you to three (3) 18 documents and just ask them if they accurately record 19 statements that you have made. 20 The first one -- and I've previously 21 provided my Colleagues with notice of the these 22 documents. The first one is a document dated July 12th, 23 1995, which is Inquiry Document 70000412. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there an 25 extra copy for me to look at?
2431 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: Now, if you want to take a moment to 8 review this document, sir, by all means do that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Let me know when you've had a chance 13 to look at it, sir, please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yeah, I read this. 18 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, I wanted to 19 direct you to the bottom of the first page of text of the 20 document. This is a document that's styled a situation 21 report, written by one W.D. Smith and it's a DND 22 document. And it refers to information, granted second 23 hand, received from the OPP at the bottom of the first 24 page. 25 And you'll see that the last sentence at
2441 the bottom of the first page is referring to your having 2 stated or indicated, quote: 3 "That the KSPB" -- 4 I take it that's the Kettle and Stony 5 Point Band, 6 "-- has no intention of initiating land 7 claim action WRT --" 8 I take it that's with respect to, 9 "-- Ipperwash Provincial Park." 10 Unquote. 11 A: Not at that time we weren't, we were 12 engaged in another -- another claim. 13 Q: Okay, and so, sir, I take it you 14 would agree that it's likely you said this to someone 15 from the OPP prior to July 12th 1995? 16 A: I know we were asked if we had a 17 claim and I told him, no, we didn't and I said we weren't 18 -- we weren't filing a claim at that time. We 19 subsequently did, though, so. 20 Q: Okay. If this document could be 21 marked as the next exhibit for identification? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-256. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-256. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-256: Document Number 7000412 July
2451 12/95 OPP Maple Situation 2 Report Number 012 Re: Native 3 Elements from W.D. Smith , 4 Capt. Tac. Comd. Camp 5 Ipperwash 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For 8 identification -- 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the same 11 basis as other documents -- 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that have 14 been put in. 256. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: And, sir, the next document I wanted 18 to show you is a letter dated May 27, 1993 and this is 19 Inquiry Document 2001217 and you'll see it's a -- a one 20 (1) page letter to the OPP Superintendent from one (1) 21 Sergeant S.J. McDonald whose writing for an acting Staff 22 Sergeant Beacock. 23 Perhaps you could take a moment to review 24 that letter and let me know when you're done. 25
2461 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Well, I think we already went through 4 this issue already, I don't know what you want me to do 5 with this letter. 6 Q: Well, let me -- let me tell you, 7 please. You'll see, sir, again, this is a -- it's a 8 second-hand report, this is a report by Sergeant 9 McDonald, of a -- an apparent conversation between 10 yourself and Mr. Humberstone of the MNR, and you'll see 11 in the fourth paragraph of the letter, it reads, and I 12 quote: 13 "Chief Bressette also indicated that 14 the Band doesn't believe there is a 15 legitimate land claim in relation to 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park," 17 Unquote. Now, sir, did you say to Mr. 18 Humberstone, prior to May 27, 1993, that the Band didn't 19 believe there was a legitimate land claim in relation of 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 21 A: After we got these -- this 22 information from DND, or Indian Affairs that you pointed 23 to, and not '91, there was a surrender there and we were 24 not researching that particular claim at that time, they 25 -- that may not be the exact words that used during the
2471 meeting with Mr. Humberstone. 2 But there was discussion around that, and 3 we were not entering into, at that particular point in 4 time, any claim, and at that time, that was what I 5 believed, but subsequently, after research and things, we 6 did file a claim. 7 So, my belief changed from that point to 8 where it's at, when we did file a claim, and I did write 9 a letter to the Province, put them on notice that we 10 intended to file a claim on that. 11 So, we're rehashing history here that I 12 think is already in these documents, and I believe I 13 commented on that the other day. 14 Q: Sir, I'm just trying -- 15 A: I'm -- I'm just trying to paint the 16 clear picture, so maybe you won't keep asking me the same 17 questions. 18 Q: Sure. I'd just -- I'm just trying to 19 see if you can confirm what appears to be history as 20 recorded in this document, as a witness? 21 A: Like I said, I never wrote the 22 letter, it may have been the way it was reported back. I 23 -- I accept the fact that it's in there, and I'm not 24 disputing that, I think I tried to clarify that for you 25 in the statement I just made.
2481 Q: All right. And you'll see that the 2 paragraph goes on to say, that you feel, quote: 3 "... that MNR should be, quote, 4 'throwing out,' unquote, those persons 5 who occupy the Park," 6 Unquote. 7 A: MNR, quote, unquote. I didn't write 8 it, so attribute those comments to Mr. Humberstone. I -- 9 I always say, when somebody writes a letter and it's not 10 me, basically they're pinpointing something they believe 11 and conveying that to another person. And I thought you, 12 just before we went into this, that sometimes third-party 13 information isn't reliable. 14 I just verified to you that we had 15 discussions, I don't know if those were the exact words, 16 but around that time, we definitely were getting 17 frustrated, because I -- I think I already covered this 18 ground before. 19 Maynard George was creating problems and 20 -- and those things were leading to interference in our 21 negotiations. I don't know why I gotta keep telling this 22 story repeatedly. Obviously, maybe you weren't here, 23 maybe you didn't pay attention, I don't know what it was. 24 Q: So, sir, because you were frustrated 25 with Maynard T. George, in May of 1993, I take it that
2491 you -- you may have said that the MNR should throw out 2 those persons who occupy the Park; right? 3 A: Could be, I don't know, I didn't 4 write that letter you're reading. 5 Q: It's -- it's second-hand information? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Which is not necessarily reliable? 8 A: Well, you know it. 9 Q: I do. 10 A: You're -- you're stating that. 11 Q: Now, there's one (1) more document, 12 sir. This is in your black binder, it's Commission 13 Document 24. This is a statement of Inspector Linton. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 15 to make that last document an exhibit for purposes of 16 identification? 17 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, yes, indeed. 18 Thank you very much, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 MR. PETER DOWNARD: If that document 21 could be the next exhibit for identification? 22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-257. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-257: Document Number 2001217 May 25 27/93 letter to OPP
2501 Superintendent from S.J. 2 McDonald No. 4813 Sergeant, 3 Liaison Officer for E.B. 4 Beacock No. 2156 Acting Staff 5 Sergeant. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 8 Q: And sir, I only want to ask you about 9 one (1) paragraph in this document. If you wish to take 10 time to review more of it, I'm in your hands, but what I 11 want to do is direct you to a paragraph on the second 12 page. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which tab is 14 that? 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: This is Tab 24 in the 16 Inquiries brief. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: The second page of 19 text. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD 22 Q: And, I'll just read it to you. It 23 says, I quote: 24 "On an ongoing basis, I had 25 conversations --"
2511 And -- and by the way, this is referring 2 to the time frame prior to the occupation. Quote: 3 "On an ongoing basis, I had 4 conversations both in person and by 5 telephone with Chief Bressette of 6 Kettle/Stoney Point Reserve to discuss 7 issues of concern. 8 In relation to Ipperwash, he made it 9 clear that he did not support the 10 occupation of CFB Ipperwash property by 11 the Stoney Point people and said they 12 should await the court's decision. He 13 said the OPP should force the Stoney 14 Point people off the Base property. 15 He also discussed other land claims 16 including Ipperwash Provincial Park. 17 It was his opinion, which he stated was 18 supported by research that neither the 19 Kettle or Stoney Point people had any 20 legitimate claim to the Park land as it 21 was properly acquired by the Provincial 22 Government from a lawful owner." 23 Unquote. Now, obviously there are a 24 couple of things in there, but I want to ask you about 25 the point about the -- the Provincial Park first. And, I
2521 simply want to ask you whether you said to Inspector 2 Linton at any time prior to the occupation of the Park 3 that it was your opinion that, supported by research, 4 that the -- the Kettle -- neither the Kettle nor Stoney 5 Point people had any legitimate claim to the Park as it 6 was properly acquired by the Province from a lawful 7 owner? 8 A: Given the time frames and -- and the 9 -- the information that was received, Indian Affairs 10 research provided that. We then conducted some more 11 research in-depth, looked into things, filed intention to 12 the Province like I told you that we -- we intended to 13 file a claim and we have file a claim so, you know, that 14 may have been our position at that time, but based on 15 information received after that, that changed. 16 So, if you want to know that, yes that's 17 kind of probably what was discussed and like I said, 18 today's climate is a different matter. 19 Q: Yes, sir. I 'm just asking you about 20 the period prior to September of 1995? And, sir, did you 21 say to Inspector Linton, prior to September of 1995, that 22 the OPP should force the Stoney Point people off the Base 23 property? 24 A: Not the Base property. 25 Q: Did you say that they should be
2531 forced off something else? 2 A: No. 3 Q: So, you -- you dispute that statement 4 that's attributed to you by Inspector Linton? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: This was in 1993? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1995. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 12 Q: The statement was in 1995 and it's -- 13 and it's referring to events prior to September of 1995. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I don't think we ever discussed 18 anybody being moved off the base. Now that may have been 19 a different matter in relation to the Park, because there 20 never was an issue around the base property and we had 21 clarification from DND that that would be ongoing, they 22 were getting involved with, I guess, training people to 23 run maintenance and whatnot, so that wouldn't have been 24 the issue. It would have been probably more referencing 25 the Park.
2541 Q: Okay. 2 A: We had continuing -- he said, 3 personal and telephone ongoing conversations and I don't 4 know when he drafted that letter. He could have made a 5 mistake in what he did. 6 Q: Okay, sir, I have your answer, thank 7 you. And ... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I just want to 12 point out very quickly, Commissioner. I've been reading 13 the document to which My Friend was just referring and 14 I'm having great difficulty ascertaining what the date 15 would be for this particular passage. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, so was 17 I. I couldn't find a date anywhere for the document 18 itself so. 19 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, that's -- well, 20 my understanding from Mr. Millar is that this is a 21 statement taken after September 1995 in 1995. 22 But I agree that the time frame of the 23 attributed statement is not clear in the document 24 that's -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's
2551 fine. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 4 Q: Now, if I can refer you, sir, to just 5 one more document. This is an e-mail and it's at Tab 33 6 in your black book, and this is an e-mail from Anthony 7 Parkin to Nancy Mansell and others, dated August 4, 1995. 8 And obviously, this is an e-mail that's 9 written in the wake of the takeover of the built up area 10 on July 31 and the second paragraph reads, and I quote: 11 "Information only. We are told by the 12 military that a high level meeting will 13 be held on Wednesday 9 August, 1995, 14 which will include the Prime Minister, 15 Indian Affairs and military Chiefs of 16 Staff and then on 10th August '95 the 17 military will attempt to meet with 18 Chief Tom Bressette. This info was 19 passed on to us by Captain Doug Smith 20 of the military but we have nothing 21 else to confirm it." 22 Unquote. Now, after August 4, 1995, did 23 you ever receive any information about a high level 24 meeting occurring with the Prime Minister, Indian Affairs 25 and military Chiefs of Staff with respect to these
2561 matters? 2 A: No, I don't remember. 3 Q: Perhaps I'll ask Mr. Millar to make a 4 request for the relevant documents from the federal 5 government. Thank you very much, sir. Those are my 6 questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, Mr. Downard. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, on that 10 -- the point of the date of the document that -- of Mr. 11 Linton that My Friend, Mr. Downard, referred to, all I 12 know is that it was after September the 6th. 13 I don't know what the date is of that 14 document, because we don't have any indication of the 15 date. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 17 think so, but it may not -- it may have even been after 18 '95 or -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, sure. It may have 20 been -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 97 or 22 '98. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it may have been, 24 yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or '97 or
2571 '98. That's fine. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Just a bit of 3 housekeeping, if I may. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are there 5 any other -- 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm not -- I'm 7 not precluding anyone else. I'm not stepping up, I just 8 want to do -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I 10 thought you were -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- a bit of 12 housekeeping. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- up to 14 your -- because you were very close. If you just wait a 15 minute, I think we may be up to you now. I'm not sure if 16 there are any other people examining. 17 Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. O'Marra. 18 I don't think Mr. Sulman has any questions 19 or do you? 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: No thank you, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, and I 22 don't think Counsel for Ms. Deb Hutton has any questions? 23 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: No, I don't. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? So, 25 with the exception of Mr. O'Marra, we're almost up to --
2581 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it's a 2 housecleaning matter. 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm not -- I'm 4 not trying to jump the queue. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, I'm 6 sorry. I guess we're all getting a little tired. 7 What is the housekeeping matter? 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I was speaking 9 with Commission Counsel in relation to a document, and 10 Mr. Scullion was good enough to tell me that Mr. Downard 11 had put a question to the Witness that I did not hear, 12 and it was whether or not the Hobbs historical 13 documents, -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- has been 16 produced to the Commission. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The answer to 19 that is, no. The Chief has already testified that the 20 Hobbs group came back, virtually recycling documents that 21 the First Nation already had. So we didn't see any 22 relevance or utility in providing that to the Commission. 23 If there is any concern about that, we can revisit the 24 question, but I -- I see no reason why it would assist 25 you.
2591 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 Does that answer your question, Mr. Downard? We don't 3 have it. 4 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, sir. Mr. 5 Anderson has -- as he has been throughout my Cross- 6 Examination, is very helpful. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 We're up to you, Mr. O'Marra. 9 MR. AL O'MARRA: Thank you, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 13 Q: You'll be glad to know that I'm the 14 last of a long line of lawyers to ask you questions this 15 afternoon, perhaps other than Mr. Henderson. 16 A: Well, you guys make good money asking 17 questions. 18 Q: I wish that were true. 19 A: You wouldn't be here if you weren't. 20 Q: I only have a very few questions, so 21 I'll be making a lot of money based on very few 22 questions, then. Thank you. 23 Chief Bressette, I act for the Chief 24 Coroner of the Province, and we're involved in the 25 process, largely to assist the Commission on the events
2601 that followed the -- the actual shooting of Dudley 2 George, so my questions are going to be focussing, 3 actually, on an area after the shooting. 4 As you know, the mandate of the Commission 5 includes the issue of healing, bringing some healing to 6 your community, I take it, that includes the -- within 7 your community, the two apparent groups that now exist, a 8 healing within your community and the community outside 9 of your community, the greater community. 10 There's also healing, I take it, that 11 you'd agree with, on a personal level, for those that 12 were involved in the situation that occurred, leading up 13 to September 6th, and certainly afterwards. 14 We heard evidence, Chief Bressette, about 15 young people who were involved in the confrontation, who 16 observed the violence, who were directly involved, having 17 been shot, having been involved in trying to save life. 18 We also heard from you about how you and 19 your fellow Councillors, and others in the community were 20 feeling considerable stress in the aftermath. You also 21 made reference to some of the Elders speaking of their 22 fears. 23 Now, do you still see that today, Chief 24 Bressette? Do you still see the effect on individuals in 25 your community?
2611 A: Every time an OPP cruiser comes on 2 the Reserve, the office gets a call and it's generally 3 directed to me, asking me, what are the OPP doing on the 4 Reserve? So, yes. 5 Q: Because we did hear from those who 6 still have a great sense of distrust. Now, we've had, in 7 evidence, the Memorandum of Understanding reached with 8 the Federal Government on September 13th, and I'm not 9 interested, of course, in those terms that deal with your 10 negotiations, but rather paragraph number 7, it's on 11 page 2, speaks about the commitment to provide resources 12 to work with your community in developing a healing 13 process in the community. 14 Now, earlier, your -- your attention was 15 drawn by Ms. Jones to a minute of your Council, I believe 16 it's on September 21. You'll find that at Tab 31 of the 17 -- the Minutes, and on page 2, Item D, the reference is 18 to the crisis response, and there's reference to the 19 Children and Family Services, Health Services, 20 Educational Services, Day Care and Aboriginal Healing and 21 Wellness Project. 22 Are those -- were those Committees within 23 your own community? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Working together to put
2621 together a community crisis response proposal? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And further down in that minute, it 4 makes reference to Dr. Norm Fraser -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- Medical Services Branch of Health 7 Canada, that they were offering funding for four (4) 8 weeks. And then there's another note indicating that 9 four (4) weeks will only identify the problem. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did you receive funding for that four 12 (4) weeks of exploration to identify the problems that 13 existed, that required further help? 14 A: You know we were, I don't think the 15 Government ever really provided anything, other than to 16 tap into this program, tap into that program, make 17 application here, make application there. And in my own 18 mind, I don't think they ever really addressed this issue 19 on that memorandum. 20 I felt that what they did was inadequate, 21 there should have been more done for the people living on 22 the land at the former Military Base, and in our 23 community as well. But they didn't seem to want to take 24 that approach, and it was tap into this program here, and 25 offer the services to them.
2631 And I -- I just don't believe it ever 2 really met what was needed at that time. 3 Q: Do you have any recollection as to 4 whether there was any specific funding or identification 5 of funds directed towards this whole issue of the healing 6 process? 7 A: Well, I -- I know the persons here 8 who dealt with the crisis response issues and they 9 could -- 10 Q: Is that Marg Pepper (phonetic)? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Could probably provide a better 14 answer than myself. 15 Q: She would have a day to day 16 appreciation of what the process was? 17 A: Oh, yes, she was mainly in charge of 18 trying to access the funding and making the applications 19 and filling in the reports, and I believe she still is a 20 member of our Crisis Response Team, if I'm not mistaken. 21 Q: Okay. If I could just ask you to 22 turn to the minute at Tab 33, November 6, there's 23 reference to -- this is on the -- the second page, 24 Item R, Crisis Intervention, Amending Contribution 25 Agreement, and there's reference to an amount of ninety-
2641 six thousand eight hundred dollars ($96,800). 2 It appears to involve at least the Crisis 3 Intervention aspect of what your community was engaged 4 in. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you have any recollection as to 7 whether that was funding that came from the Federal 8 Government or from your own reserves? 9 A: Well, that would have been -- 10 contribution agreements come from the Federal Government, 11 so that would have been Federal Government. 12 Q: Okay. But beyond that, you're not 13 aware of -- of other contributions? 14 A: No, I'm not aware. I think that they 15 pointed to the -- there was an Aboriginal Healing and 16 Wellness in other areas we had to tap into, which is a 17 Provincial Program, and we -- we basically had to run an 18 ongoing process of asking for funding to carry out 19 certain events, and the money may look like a large 20 amount, but -- 21 Q: No. 22 A: -- it doesn't really do the job that 23 was needed. 24 Q: Yes. I'm not suggesting it looks 25 like a large amount at all, Chief Bressette, given other
2651 expenses, but you mentioned the Provincial Government, 2 and a Wellness Program. Were there others that were 3 provided to you, to your community? 4 A: Well, we -- we had to make 5 application for those, in a proposal form. And they 6 would determine the levels or amounts that we would get, 7 and they'd be in turn sent to the community, and for our 8 -- our perusal, the agreements, whether we accepted or 9 rejected them. And Council would, like, much like this, 10 review them, have the recommendation of the program 11 managers, and they would -- we would accept or reject 12 them on that basis. 13 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me ask you this, 14 Chief. You've identified that there is still, from your 15 perspective, an effect in your community, you say you see 16 it daily or hear it when complaints are made to you. 17 Are you able to assist the Commission by 18 way of a recommendation, either, well directed to the 19 Provincial Government, in terms of the resources 20 necessary or the services necessary to -- to even deal 21 with the matter today? 22 A: Well, I definitely feel it needs to 23 be a -- some kind of process brought in, to deal with 24 everybody, and -- and by everybody. I mean there's still 25 people carrying scars from this, that have not had
2661 opportunity to deal with counsellors, to really go 2 through the feelings that they're carrying around and 3 deal with them in an effective way, to bring them both to 4 a healing process. 5 And I -- I think as long as that remains 6 neglected, it just masks over a problem that'll follow 7 someone probably until the day they die if they don't 8 deal with it. 9 Q: Okay, sir. And we've heard that 10 there are still people who are residing at Stoney Point 11 or Aazhoodena who have not received those kinds of 12 services, but I take it if the services are made 13 available through Kettle and Stoney Point that they would 14 be available to -- to those residents as well. 15 A: Well, they would be and -- and I just 16 get concerned that they may not come and utilize it for 17 that purpose, but you know, somebody should do something 18 in terms of helping people to deal with that. There -- 19 there needs to be an approach made to try and find a way 20 to deal with those kind of issues. 21 Q: Now, the -- just going back to the 22 crisis resolution and the services provided there, I 23 understand that through Health Canada that there is a -- 24 a maximum of fifteen (15) hours of crisis counselling 25 services that are provided --
2671 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- to First Nations communities, 3 those who are -- are status. Was this response, to your 4 knowledge, within that or beyond the fifteen (15) hours? 5 A: It may have been added, but I think 6 what -- what occurred was, after a certain amount of time 7 they cut funding off of the program before a lot of 8 people were, I guess, in tune with what it was all about 9 and how it operated and how it would benefit them. 10 One (1) of the difficulties is, I guess, 11 when you provide services and you hire people out of the 12 Mental Health Association, some people have a stigma 13 attached to the word, "Mental Health," and have some 14 difficulty coming forward to access their services. 15 That's pretty much what some people think. 16 Somebody may think they have a mental 17 instability because they go there and that hampers it in 18 a lot of ways, a lot of the -- the efforts in -- in 19 finding healing. 20 Q: Right. Well, I take it, sir, that 21 certainly from your perspective, what has been offered 22 and available still is not enough? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And I take it as well that 25 this item number 7, while it deals in the same document
2681 as the issues around the land, that this -- this wasn't 2 tied to any negotiations? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The provision -- Okay. Thank you, 5 sir, those are my questions. 6 A: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. We've come to the end with the exception of 9 your own Counsel, Mr. Henderson. 10 Yes, Mr. Henderson...? 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't know if I 12 dare, Commissioner. The Chief has been in the -- the 13 witness stand so long today. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 16 Q: I'd just like to clear up a few 17 things with you, Chief. Yesterday when you testified in- 18 chief, you indicated that you thought you had attended 19 the funeral of Mr. Dan George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And subsequently it was suggested to 22 you that perhaps you hadn't done that and you said you 23 should check with your wife because she would know? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Have you made that check?
2691 A: Yes, and she said, No, you didn't go. 2 Q: And had you -- I'm sorry. 3 A: She told me I went to Dudley's 4 funeral, though. 5 Q: And that -- your recollection is that 6 you did go to Dudley's funeral? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, prior to 9 September the 7th, 2005, had you ever heard of Operation 10 Maple? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Do you know what Operation Maple was? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And, in your conversations 15 with the OPP and/or the Military during that summer, 16 you're confident that the subject of Operation Maple did 17 not come up? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you were never shown any written 20 plans for how they might deal with an occupation of the 21 Base or the ca -- or the Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: If I can ask you, as reluctant as I 24 am to do so, to turn to the transcripts again. 25
2701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Again, if we can just tidy up one (1) 4 thing. On -- on the second page, I believe there is the 5 reference to, "wackos," which attracted some comment at 6 some point. Yes, it's halfway down the page where it 7 says: 8 "Carson: Ah, is that right? 9 Bressette: That's where all these 10 things come from. There's a bunch of 11 whackos running around loose." 12 You -- you recall that comment -- 13 A: Yes -- 14 Q: -- do you see it there? 15 A: -- I recall that, yeah. 16 Q: Over onto the next page, which -- 17 which I have in this bundle as the third page, down 18 towards the bottom of the page, there's, in the bottom 19 half of the page, is: 20 "Carson: That's right. 21 Bressette: And they've been allowed to 22 flaunt it, they walk in there and took 23 over and nobody did anything. 24 And there's a fellow there," 25 I'm just skipping ahead,
2711 "there's a fellow there named Les 2 Jewels, who seems to be causing all the 3 trouble down there." 4 Now, you indicated yesterday, to Mr. 5 Rosenthal, that one of the whackos had a rather strange 6 theory of Government finance in Canada? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And it involved all of Government 9 revenues going to the Department of Indian Affairs? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Would that it were so? And then 12 today, I believe you said that it was in fact Les Jewels 13 who had -- had told you that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Reluctant as I am to do so, in the 16 absence of Mr. Jewels, was he the fellow that you 17 considered to be a whacko? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I notice on the previous page you 20 used the plural; did you consider to be others down in 21 the -- in the Camp, or the Park, who had similarly 22 strange ideas? 23 A: Well, I think generally, we -- there 24 were people coming into our area we didn't know nothing 25 about, and those were the kind of concerns that were in
2721 my mind at that time, that people will come and say 2 anything without no proof or anything, and it tends to be 3 taken as, you know, that's the way it is. 4 Q: As Gospel, is the phrase you used? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you. At the bottom of page 3, 7 coming back to that, this is again an unsolicited and 8 unexpected call on the morning of September the 5th. 9 There's Carson, has the last -- the last entry at the 10 bottom of page 3, it starts with, "ha ha." 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: 13 "Well, we're going to have to see what 14 the Government says. I mean, they're 15 obviously going to be dealing with it 16 on a much higher level than I, from 17 that perspective, and I imagine before 18 the day is out, they will have -- they 19 will have -- people would be humming 20 anyways. So we have made notification 21 up the chain, I'm sure it would be a 22 big issue today, and we'll just swing 23 with it over the page, and try to 24 control it the best we can, and see if 25 we can -- see if we can come out of it
2731 without too much problem." 2 Now, do you recall those words being part 3 of your conversation? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, when we come to September the 6 6th, you receive a call from Mr. Bob Watts, which has 7 been much discussed and -- and described, and there was a 8 quotation that was given there. 9 Now, in her Cross-Examination, Ms. Tuck- 10 Jackson said: 11 "Why didn't you call Inspector Carson 12 when you received what you perceived to 13 be a warning?" 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: In fairness, 15 Mr. Commissioner, I simply confirmed that he did not 16 notify Inspector Carson, I didn't ask him why, but if My 17 Friend wishes to, of course he's open to. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I thank My 19 Friend. I certainly wouldn't misquote her intentionally. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 22 Q: Is it possible, Chief, that in -- on 23 the basis of what Inspector Carson had told you the 24 previous day, that if you were getting messages from what 25 you assumed to be the Premier's Office, that he probably
2741 was too? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there was also a suggestion that 4 later on in the day, when Gerald George had told you 5 about police cars running down to the beach, that you 6 might have called, and perhaps it's with the same 7 caution, that you didn't call Inspector Carson, in fact, 8 you made a judgment call and called the national Chief. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I believe the evidence will show, 11 in due course, Commissioner, that the National Chief, 12 Ovide Mercredi, did in fact, call the -- call the Control 13 Centre, and I assume, Chief, that you provided him with 14 the number for that purpose? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Mr. Rosenthal suggested that instead 17 of calling the radio station, that you should have sent 18 Bonnie Bressette down to -- down to the Park; do you know 19 where she was at that time? 20 A: She was at bingo. 21 Q: So again, you made a judgment call 22 and you got the message out as best you thought you 23 could? 24 A: Yes. 25
2751 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I may, Commissioner, Commission 4 Counsel -- I don't know whether or not I dare suggest he 5 was whispering in my ear, but -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure looked 7 like that. 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He -- he's 9 pointed out that -- that Ms. Bressette's evidence was 10 actually that she was at the Park on a couple of 11 occasions during the day and that in the evening, after 12 returning from the Park, she went to Bingo. 13 So if there was going to be a call made 14 during the period at which the Bingo was on, she would 15 have been out of town and otherwise, she was probably 16 down at the Park. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 19 Q: Now, Mr. Ross suggested to you that 20 your position and Mr. Harris' position, as it was related 21 to you, were the same. Do you recall that question? 22 A: I recall it. 23 Q: And I believe your answer was, Not at 24 all? 25 A: Yes.
2761 Q: Or words to that effect? Now, in 2 light of the information that you had in 1995, you 3 understood that message to involve a profanity in 4 relation to First Nation members and drawing guns to 5 accomplish a purpose? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you ever say any of those things 8 in -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- that context? And do you find 11 the suggestion that, in light of what you knew then, and 12 the information that you had, the suggestion that you 13 and Mr. Harris' goals, objectives, and methods were 14 identical, do you find that offensive? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: Did you go to the Army Camp on 17 September the 7th, the day after the -- the shooting? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I take it there was a large 20 number of First Nation members who marched down there to 21 show solidarity in the face of what they regarded as an 22 aggressive act? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you joined them? 25 A: Yes.
2771 Q: Did you drive down? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did you actually go down to the Park 4 that day? 5 A: I'm not sure if I went to the Park. 6 I know it was inside the -- the Base. 7 Q: You were inside the Base and, I 8 assume, conversing with your fellow First Nation members 9 and -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- attempting to find out what was 12 going on? 13 A: There was a -- a group of Chiefs 14 from the area -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- that came down that time. 17 Q: Now, there -- there was also a 18 meeting that involved several Chiefs that was in the 19 Army Camp, was that the same day? 20 A: I think that was either the same day 21 or the day after. 22 Q: Okay, but you do remember attending 23 such a meeting? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: After the meeting was over, did
2781 anything strike you about your visit to the Army Camp? 2 A: Well, the only thing I noticed is 3 both the headlights on my car were broken. 4 Q: Your headlights were smashed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you indicated that you 7 attended the funeral of Dudley George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Have you been to the Army Camp since 10 then? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Now, your evidence, if I 13 understand it correctly, is that over the years the 14 Chief and Council have devoted considerable time, effort 15 and money of the First Nation to try and resolve the 16 claims and address the concerns of people who, from time 17 to time, describe themselves as the Stoney Point Group? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And, in that context, you spoke of 20 the committee that involved Robert George, Jr., Angeline 21 Shawkence, and Melva George in the 1980s? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: They were on Council at that time? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And some money was provided to
2791 them -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- to assist in their work? Later I 4 believe that committee is shown in the minutes as being 5 recognized as a working committee of Council? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: The issue of taxes arose in -- in 8 the context of First Nation members who, over the years, 9 had worked at Camp Ipperwash and paid income tax to work 10 on their own -- on their own land. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the First Nation embraced that 13 cause as well -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- to achieve tax remission? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: They engaged lawyers for that 18 purpose? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It took approximately ten (10) years 21 to resolve? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But it is resolved now, to your 24 understanding? 25 A: Yes.
2801 Q: With the result that people working 2 on Stoney Point, even today, do not pay income tax on 3 their wages because it's deemed to be and Indian Reserve 4 for tax purposes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you. Now, you also indicated 7 that there was a demand early in -- early after the move 8 onto the ranges in 1993 to process Welfare applications 9 at the Band Administration Office. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that you tried to meet that 12 demand in coordination with the Band Administrator and 13 the Welfare Administrator, Dave Henry? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you corresponded up the line up 16 to and including the Premier of Ontario to try and 17 achieve what you understood the group to want? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you corresponded up the line, up 20 to and including the Premier of Ontario, to try and 21 achieve what you understood the group to want? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you did fail on that occasion? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, in terms of research, you
2811 engaged Maynard T. George as a researcher at one (1) 2 point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that was Chief and Council that 5 did that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: He did not last long in that 8 position as I understand? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Band funds were used with respect to 11 the Hobbs project -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- to clear those accounts away? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: There was several meetings attended 16 to achieve a level of cooperation and coordination? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And ultimately, there was a -- a set 19 of principles prepared, which you understood both groups 20 to adhere to and recognize? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And after the -- after the built-up 23 area was taken over by the group in the Camp, there was 24 some problem about whether or not the Department of 25 National Defence would continue the water supply; is
2821 that correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- the Department of 4 National Defence requested Chief and Council to send a 5 letter if they wanted the water left on to provide 6 health and hygiene for the -- for the people who had 7 taken over the built-up area; is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did Council send such a letter? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And after the -- the tragic 12 occurrences on September 6th and 7th, Council devoted 13 much time and effort to intervene to prevent a -- a bad 14 situation from getting worse, to attempt to mediate and 15 provide support to the people who were involved and to 16 attempt, again, reconciliation, as appropriate, with the 17 Stoney Point Group; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, what -- the -- the things I 20 have described go over a period of ten (10) or twelve 21 (12) years and during that -- during that period, once 22 the group moved into the ranges in May of 1993, did you 23 perceive the Chief and Council were getting any support 24 from that group at all? 25 A: No.
2831 Q: Finally, Chief, you mentioned a 2 successful law enforcement strategy that occurred in 3 1997? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I understand that at some date, in 6 that year there was both an occupation and a blockade of 7 the Band Administration Offices? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the process that was followed -- 10 and you've described this several times to the 11 Commissioner -- was that the First Nation did apply to 12 the Court for an injunction? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: The injunction was provided to the 15 First Nation police? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the police evicted the Occupants 18 and removed the blockade. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you indicated that they had done 21 so forcibly in the sense that they were enforcing the 22 injunction, but without violence; is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: One (1) thing you did not tell the 25 Commissioner, Chief, was what group was actually
2841 involved in this occupation and blockade. Were they 2 First Nation members? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What group of First Nation members 5 was it? 6 A: The group occupying Stoney Point at 7 Camp Ipperwash. 8 Q: Thank you very much, Chief, those 9 are my questions. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no questions 11 in re-examination, Commissioner. I'd like to thank 12 Chief Bressette for coming today and for spending two 13 (2) long days here and I wish to thank my Colleagues for 14 extending the days as well so that we could deal with 15 the evidence of Chief Bressette this week. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I second 17 those statements. Thank you. Thank you all very much. 18 We have now come to the end of a long week, so we will 19 adjourn now and reconvene -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Monday 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- next 22 Monday at 10:30. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At 10:30, yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 all very much.
2851 THE WITNESS: Mr. Commissioner? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 THE WITNESS: Am -- am I excused now? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry. I 6 didn't give you a chance. 7 THE WITNESS: I just wondered if I'm 8 excused or required to come back. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, you're finished. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You're finished. 12 Thank you very much. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Chief, you're finished. Thank you. 16 17 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until Monday, March the 7th at 10:30 a.m. 21 22 --- Upon adjourning at 4:49 p.m. 23 24 25
2861 2 Certified Correct, 3 4 5 6 ____________________ 7 Carol Geehan 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25