11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 2nd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (Student-at-law) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 Peter West ) (np) 22 Ngai On Young ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) 7 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 8 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 9 Julian Roy ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (student-at-law) 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 15 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 16 Matthew Horner ) (np) 17 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 18 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 Craig Mills ) 21 Megan Mackey ) (np) 22 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 23 Anna Perschy ) 24 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 25 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 7 THOMAS MICHAEL BRESSETTE, Resumed: 8 9 Continued Examination-In-Chief 10 by Mr. Derry Millar 9 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 196 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 296 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-242 Document Number 9000036 Letter 4 from E.E. Hobbs and Associates 5 Ltd. To Chief Thomas Bressette 6 Re: Grievances and long outstanding 7 issues confronting the Chippewas of 8 Kettle Point and Stoney Point 9 Sept. 16/93 33 10 P-243 Document Number 9000054 Oct. 26/93 11 letter to Chief Bressette from 12 Chief Carl George Re: Kettle 13 Point/Stoney Point-National Defence 37 14 P-244 Document Number 9000058 Nov.04/93 15 fax to Kettle Point, Att. Chiefs 16 Tom Bressette and Carl George from 17 E. Anthony Ross Re: First Nations 18 Claims against Canada 38 19 P-245 Document Number 9000224 Feb.22/94 20 from Chief Tom Bressette to all 21 members of the Kettle and Stony 22 Point First Nation announcing the 23 return of the land. 46 24 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-246 Document Number 3000370 Aug. 4 02/95 Press Release from the 5 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 6 Point Re: Negotiations with Dept. 7 Of National Defence. 73 8 P-247 Document Number 9000613 Aug. 9 04/95 London Free Press Article 10 "Mercredi Mediation in Doubt" 84 11 P-248 Document Number 1009637 Aug. 12 28/95 London Free Press Article 13 "Heightened OPP Presence Unsettles 14 Campers" 89 15 P-249 Transcript- Telephone calls between 16 Chief Tom Bressette and OPP. 17 Sept. 05 - Sept. 07/95 98 18 P-250 Ipperwash Inquiry telephone calls 19 Re: OPP and Chief Tom Bressette 20 Sept. 05 - Sept. O7/95 on CD-ROM. 98 21 P-251 Document Number 10019173 page 05 22 Map of Bosanquet Township 120 23 24 25
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-252 Document Number 9000268 Sept. 4 07/95, 9:25 minutes of conference 5 call, Assembly of First Nations, 6 Chief Tom Bressette giving summary 7 of events to date. 152 8 P-253 Document Number 1010726 April 9 09/96 letter to Premier Michael D. 10 Harris from Chief Tom Bressette 11 Re: Ipperwash Prov. Park. 186 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon convening at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin, 11 Commissioner, I just wanted to alert everyone to what -- 12 we handed out this morning, two (2) DVD's. And the 13 DVD's are copies of a -- two (2) videos that we received 14 that we'll be dealing with with subsequent witnesses. 15 It's a video taken by a group of people 16 who are part of the -- as I understand it, the 17 investigation team, First Nations investigation team 18 after the shooting of Dudley George. 19 And so there are two (2) videos and so 20 we've created two (2) separate DVD's. 21 22 THOMAS MICHAEL BRESSETTE, Resumed: 23 24 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 25 Q: Good morning, Chief Bressette.
101 A: Good morning. 2 Q: Before we begin I wanted to ask you 3 one (1) other question about social assistance. And 4 I've put before you Inquiry Document Number 9000487, 5 which is a Department of Indian and Northern Affairs 6 Canada document recorded by a Steve O'Brien, apparently 7 on June 11, 1993. 8 And it purportedly records a conversation 9 that day between Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Hamelin who was with 10 the Provincial Government Windsor Ministry of Consumer 11 Social Services. 12 Mr. Daniel Henry from Kettle Point and it 13 should be, as I understand it, David Henry? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: There's no Daniel Henry who -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- works for -- worked in 1993 for 18 the Kettle and Stony Point? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And Liz Thunder, the Band 21 Administrator. Prior to this morning I understand 22 you've never seen this document before? 23 A: No, I haven't. 24 Q: And were you aware of the -- of a 25 meeting or a telephone conversation between Mr. O'Brien,
111 Mr. Hamelin, Mr. Henry and Ms. Thunder back in the mid- 2 June 1993? 3 A: Well, this -- this document looks 4 like they had a -- a discussion and these are Steve 5 O'Brien's notes. And it looks like as though they were 6 dealing with the issue when Dave brought this to our 7 attention that there were, I guess, some accusations 8 going on. 9 He was withholding assistance or 10 whatever. And he wanted clarification from Steve 11 O'Brien that led to the -- all of this exchange of 12 letters that was going on. But he wanted this matter 13 cleared up and we did undertake to get a final word out 14 of the Province and out of the Federal Government with 15 regard to this. 16 Mr. Henry didn't want to get caught in 17 the middle of all of this. He's was merely the welfare 18 administrator at the time. 19 Q: But were -- were -- excuse me, were 20 you aware of this conversation? Did you have any idea - 21 - did you have any information with respect to this 22 conversation -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- back in June or '93? 25 A: No. I wasn't in this particular
121 meeting. I just know there were discussions that were 2 going on internally in the administration trying to deal 3 with this. 4 Q: And the -- was the Band -- the Band 5 and Council attempting to use welfare as a lever over 6 the people at the Army Camp? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And your desire was -- what was your 9 desire as Chief? 10 A: We were basically just trying to 11 continue the provision of services that we were dealing 12 all the time. I know at times Mr. Henry is very 13 diligent about doing his job. 14 And he has the regulations that state 15 where people have to be, and our jurisdiction at that 16 time was clearly outlined as the First Nation land 17 boundaries. And if people were living in say a town or 18 small village around us, and came in for assistance, he 19 would deny them. 20 And I -- I take -- I take it from the 21 discussion that went on, this turned into one (1) of 22 those kind of episodes. And we later told Mr. Henry 23 that it was out wish to continue providing that services 24 because they were our people and our belief where this 25 was still our land base.
131 So when we had that discussion, that's 2 when him and Faye Jackson who was a receptionist were 3 getting into verbal altercations with people and -- and 4 that's basically how it amounted to. 5 And I do recall it because I -- I met -- 6 distinctly remember meeting Greg George and talking with 7 him about this and he said, What are you guys doing? 8 Are you trying to use this as a means to -- to deal with 9 us. And I said, No, I -- that's not the intent. 10 And then after we had done this I showed 11 him the letters that did come in from the Federal and 12 Provincial Government outlining what they felt and the 13 direction they'd given us and he seemed satisfied at 14 that time. 15 Q: Okay. If I could then move on to a 16 different subject, in August 1993 we've seen a reference 17 to helicopters yesterday in Exhibit P-190, your letter 18 to Mr. Carl George dated August 27, 1993. 19 And did -- were you aware, or become 20 aware, of an alleged shooting of a helicopter at the 21 Army Camp on -- on or about August 23, 1993? 22 A: Yes, I heard about it I guess the 23 morning after it happened because there was a lot of 24 discussion in the community and it was reported to us 25 that there was some type of police action going on, so
141 many of the membership were out and about -- drove down 2 there to see what was going on. 3 Q: And did you drive down to the Army 4 Camp to see what was going on? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And did you speak to -- did -- did 7 you go into the Army Camp? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And where did you observe -- what -- 10 where were you when you were observing what was going 11 on? 12 A: I was in a line of cars along the 13 side of Highway 21 facing westbound and we were parked 14 in a line along there near the Outer Drive area there. 15 And there was -- there was a little building there that 16 was constructed, a little wooden structure there. 17 And Carl George was in that building and 18 I think he was the one talking with the OPP. And at 19 that time they were going back towards Rose Manning's 20 residence where she was staying in at that time and I 21 recall them -- her telling them to leave her place 22 alone. 23 And I know Bernard was there and he got 24 quite upset because he seen the way that they were 25 treating an Elder there and he started yelling across
151 the fence at the -- the OPP officers. 2 Q: And Bernard -- you're referring to 3 Bernard George? He was with you on the outside of the 4 fence? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you have any discussions 7 with the Ontario Provincial Police with respect to this 8 incident on August 23rd or August 24th? 9 A: I don't recall talking to them about 10 anything in regards to that. They were conducting their 11 own investigation. 12 Q: Okay. And, you should have in front 13 of you, Chief Bressette, Exhibit -- a copy of Exhibit 14 219 and Exhibit 219 contains the minutes of the Band 15 Council from -- starting on January 5th, 1993 -- 16 A: Excuse me, where would that be? 17 Q: Oh, it's the binder -- the cerlox 18 binder -- I'm sorry and if you could go to Tab 1. 19 A: This is the Band Council minutes? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: January 5th, '93? 22 Q: Yes. And there's a reference at -- 23 I take it at this point in time, as of January 5, 1993, 24 Maynard T. George was a member of Council? 25 A: Yes.
161 Q: And there's a note at the bottom 2 that refers to a letter of resignation from Maynard T. 3 George dated January 5, 1993. And in or about this time 4 did Maynard T. George give you a letter of purported 5 resignation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he didn't resign officially, 8 though, until, as we'll see in a moment, later in 1993; 9 is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's a reference -- can -- 12 can you tell us today what the reference is to the 13 contract at the bottom of page -- page 1? 14 A: I believe Maynard wanted a contract 15 to do some research work. And we went ahead and 16 basically had him doing research work to try and deal 17 with this one (1) two (2) Band issue. 18 Q: So, in 1993, the Band was attempting 19 to deal with the issue of the one (1) Band, two (2) 20 Bands? 21 A: Yes, we had ever since this started. 22 We -- we -- we tried to find documentation or get to the 23 heart of what he was talking about, because he was the 24 only one raising these kind of concerns. And he had 25 convened several meetings and told people he had
171 unequivocal proof that -- that there was a separation of 2 the Bands and they were two (2) separate entities. 3 Q: And this work on the one (1) Band 4 two (2) Band continued in 1993 -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- by the Band Council? At the top 7 of Page 2 there's a reference to Council of, I think it 8 should be, Elders -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and the -- can you tell us what 11 that refers to? Were these the Elders from -- that had 12 -- from Stoney Point? 13 A: Yes, I guess, you know, he had 14 Elders that he worked with and the people here, one (1) 15 of them is his sister and another ones his wife -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- and Carl George were there and I 18 think he had Gord Cloud there and Marlene Cloud as the 19 Elders he was meeting with. 20 Q: And which one's his sister and which 21 one's his wife? 22 A: Janet is Maynard's sister, Janet 23 Cloud, and Elaine George was his wife at the time. 24 Q: Okay. And there's a reference to a 25 Victor Gulevitch, G-U-L-E-V-I-T-C-H, historical
181 researcher for legal document and who was Mr. Gulevitch? 2 A: Victor Gulevitch was a -- he was 3 contracted, he was doing teaching at the University of 4 Guelph or McMaster University and he was brought in as a 5 contractor, because that's what he did. 6 He done -- he was an archeologist, and he 7 was brought in to sort of look at our documentation. 8 And he works, today, for the Union of Ontario Indians, 9 as a researcher for them and we used him to find all of 10 these documents. 11 And because he was in Ottawa quite 12 regular at the archives, we wanted certified copies of 13 all of the information relating to our community. And 14 we wanted him just to review some of the work that 15 Maynard was doing. 16 Q: And so he was retained by the Band 17 to work on this issue? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I note that the -- the minute 20 refers to -- in the second paragraph on page 2, 21 "Members of Council of Elders did 22 state again they are in agreement and 23 do want to work collectively on the 24 Stoney Point issue." 25 So that -- do I take that to mean that
191 the Band and this group were trying to work collectively 2 on the issue back in 1993? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, if I could take you to Tab 2, 5 the minutes of January 18, 1993, again I see that Mr. 6 Maynard T. George is present as a councillor. And on 7 page 2, there's a reference at the top of the page to 8 Stoney Point Council of Elders agenda -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and there was again, a discussion 11 about the historical research being done. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then in paragraph 2 there's a 14 note: 15 "Chief informed everyone present that 16 his -- about his call from Robert 17 George. Chief of Council of Elders 18 stating Maynard had no authority for 19 anything he's done and that Robert 20 George will be sending Chief Tom 21 Bressette a letter regarding this." 22 Can you tell -- what was that about, 23 Chief Bressette? 24 A: I believe there was some 25 disagreement with what Maynard was doing at that
201 particular time and other people didn't agree with -- 2 with what he was doing. 3 Q: And the Band Council had, at this 4 point, retained a researcher to look at the issue Mr. 5 Gulevitch and was working with -- on the issue of one 6 (1) Band, two (2) Bands? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at Tab 3, there's a minute of 9 April 20, 1993 and it refers to in item number A, the 10 leather -- letter of resignation from Mr. Maynard T. 11 George, dated April 20, 1993. 12 And four (4) pages in, attached to that 13 minute, is a letter dated April 20, 1993 to you signed 14 by Mr. Maynard Travis George. 15 Is that his letter of resignation, Chief 16 Bressette? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: And the -- as of that point in time, 19 was Maynard T. George no longer a councillor? Was the 20 resignation effective or shortly thereafter made 21 effective? 22 A: Well, we acknowledged it and his 23 resignation was basically brought forward. We 24 acknowledged it and I guess the reason we done that is, 25 Indian Affairs were to -- to -- to deal with his
211 resignation. We were elected under the Indian Act and 2 still are today. 3 Q: Okay. And at Tab 4, there's a 4 minute of June 7, 1993. And there's a reference to a 5 report from you about the taxation issue and Camp 6 Ipperwash and that's the issue we spoke of yesterday? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Which ultimately was resolved in 9 favour of your First Nation? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then there's a reference to a 12 meeting with Fred Maguire at the Department of National 13 Defence. And there was -- it refers to a working group 14 being set up between people from, I take it from Stoney 15 Point, and the -- the -- the representatives of the 16 locatees and the Band, and is that correct? 17 Was a joint -- at this point, what were 18 you trying to do? You were trying to work together with 19 the Elders and the locatees from Stoney Point to deal 20 with the issues? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did that continue? 23 A: For -- for a while it did. I -- I 24 can't be specific on how long that whole process went, 25 but I think it had an impact when -- when Maynard left
221 the -- the Council. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I think it impacted this process 4 when Maynard resigned. 5 Q: And at Tab 6, there's an e-mail -- 6 excuse me -- there's a Council meeting of August 5, 7 1993 -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and there's a report of your 10 meeting with Mr. Siddon dated -- that you had on August 11 4, 1993 at item number A? 12 A: Item A, Agenda Review? 13 Q: No, it's -- this is Tab 6. 14 A: Okay, yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And you report, and it's noted: 19 "Tom Siddon would like to negotiate 20 either for a buy-out at fair market 21 value or a rental agreement with a 22 long time process to return the land, 23 but not prepared to negotiate as long 24 as the people are occupying the land." 25 A: Yes.
231 Q: And does that correctly capture your 2 report and what Mr. Siddon sent to you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And with respect to the purchase at 5 fair market value, did the Band -- was the Band -- what 6 was the Band's position about selling the land to 7 National Defence? 8 A: The Band wasn't interested in 9 selling the land. 10 Q: And Mr. Siddon, as well, you report 11 he states also that when the time comes, he'll only 12 negotiate with the elected Chief and Council of Band of 13 Kettle and Stony Point. 14 And does that accurately reflect what you 15 told the Band Council and what you were told by Mr. 16 Siddon? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I note at the bottom that you 19 report that Mr. Siddon is aware that the locatees 20 interests were not taken care of and that you indicate 21 that you were going to meet with the people who were 22 occupying Camp Ipperwash to discuss the concerns raised. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And does that accurately -- did Mr. 25 -- does that accurately capture what Mr. Siddon said
241 with respect to the locatees interests? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what you had reported to Band 4 Council? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And I -- the -- did you meet with 7 Mr. Carl George or is that -- you communicated with him 8 by sending him the copy of the letter that's marked P- 9 190? 10 A: I -- I talked to Carl and told him 11 and gave him the letter. 12 Q: And gave him the letter? And then 13 if I could take you to Tab 7 of Exhibit 219. There's a 14 reference on page 2 to Camp Ipperwash Stony Point issue. 15 "Chief gave a brief update to Janet, 16 the government is looking at some time 17 to get off the land. 18 The 1980 agreement did not meet all 19 obligations. The locatees were not 20 addressed. DND were to get a legal 21 opinion regarding the surrender of the 22 reserve. They had a year, so far, to 23 do it." 24 And what's that referring to, Chief 25 Bressette? Do you recall?
251 A: Janet Whitehead was there from the 2 law firm that we -- we were using and -- and we wanted 3 her to -- to look into the reasons why DND didn't get 4 back to us. 5 Q: About -- what was DND to get back to 6 you about? 7 A: Well, they were looking at -- that 8 some -- the government in the 1980 agreement didn't meet 9 the obligations that were in that agreement. And the 10 locatees were not addressed and basically that's what we 11 were wanting her to look into. 12 Q: Okay. And then at Tab 8 there's a 13 minute of September 7th, 1993. And there's a reference 14 in item B, "London Forces Base presentation, need for 15 Camp Ipperwash." And we spoke briefly about this 16 yesterday. 17 It -- it's -- is this the meeting at 18 which the Army came to make their presentation as to why 19 they said they needed Camp Ipperwash? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And the -- there was a Colonel 22 Miller and a Colonel Archibald who attended? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I note that there are comments 25 made by members of Council to them starting on page 2.
261 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there's a reference on page 3, 3 the last item, to a community meeting and inviting them 4 back. Was there a community meeting and did they come 5 back? 6 A: They came back but it wasn't these - 7 - I don't think it was Colonel Miller or Colonel 8 Archibald. That's where this Major came to the meeting. 9 Q: So the -- the meeting that you told 10 me about yesterday where the Major was rude, was 11 separate from this meeting? 12 A: That -- that was the community 13 meeting -- 14 Q: Oh, that was the community meeting? 15 A: -- where he was rude. Yeah. 16 Q: So, and that was after September 17 7th, 1993? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And so that Colonel Miller and 20 Colonel Archibald didn't come to the community meeting? 21 They sent the Major who was -- 22 A: Very military. It's the only way I 23 can describe him. 24 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 9, 25 it's a minute of September 13, 1993. There's a
271 reference to community meetings and locatees issue -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and there was to be a Band -- a 4 general Band meeting on September 16th -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- 1993? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at that meeting, Victor 9 Gulevitch was to host a public display of historical 10 research and family trees based on genealogy information 11 on the same day at 3:00 p.m. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did this meeting take place on 14 September 16th? 15 A: Yes, it did. 16 Q: And this -- what did the meeting 17 relate to? Was this the one (1) Band, two (2) Band 18 issue? 19 A: I think is the meeting where this 20 major came to it, if I'm not mistaken. 21 Q: And that -- was Mr. Gulevitch was 22 working on the one (1) Band two (2) issue -- two (2) 23 Band issue, as well? 24 A: He was trying to, I guess, put 25 together information right from when the treaty was
281 signed, all the way back through looking at everyone's 2 genealogy and trying to determine where people came 3 from. 4 Q: And there's a reference in the 5 second paragraph, 6 "Liz, Norman, and Brenda will be 7 attending a meeting in Ottawa on 8 September 15th". 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "And in future, more meetings will 11 be coming up at the Ottawa level 12 regarding Camp Ipperwash. Meeting is 13 to bring back a framework agreement 14 that we can work with." 15 And I take it that's a framework 16 agreement with the Department of National Defence? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then there's a reference: 19 Press release would be sent out 20 Tuesday, inviting the media to Victor 21 Gulevitch's meeting scheduled for 22 Thursday, September 16, so they can 23 gain a better understanding and view 24 of the history of the Chippewa of 25 Kettle and Stony Point Band?"
291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you were trying to educate -- 3 A: The public. 4 Q: -- the media and the public as well, 5 about the history of Kettle and Stony Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then there's a reference, 8 "Discussion on the working agreement. 9 This agreement was acknowledged by 10 both groups on July 14th at the Chiefs 11 of Ontario office. This would be to 12 work in co-operation. 13 The splinter group is looking to 14 create their own Band." 15 And what is this working agreement that's 16 -- what -- is that -- what does that refer to, Chief 17 Bressette? 18 A: I believe that was working along the 19 lines of the statement of principles that we were 20 looking into. And we met at the Chiefs of Ontario 21 office at College Street in London and that's when -- in 22 Toronto, I should say and that's when, I guess, Ernie 23 Hobbs attended the meeting and started some work. 24 Q: And at or about this time, it was 25 decided to retain Ernie Hobbs to do some work with
301 respect to the Camp Ipperwash issue and, as well, the 2 historical issue? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if we could go, for a moment, 5 you'll find in front of you a copy of a letter. It's in 6 the blue -- blue folder. It's Exhibit P-198, Inquiry 7 Document 9000038. It's a letter from Ronald C. George 8 to Kettle Point First Nation, attention Chief Tom 9 Bressette and it's dated September 21, 1993 -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- and this is a -- the letter 12 refers to a meeting that Mr. George had with Chief Carl 13 George and Don Goodwin at E.E. Hobbs and Associates, for 14 the purposes of reviewing the matter of the status of 15 the above-noted land claim and an agreement that -- to 16 be executed by the Band Council and an agreement -- an 17 identical document to be executed by the Stoney Point 18 group. Is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And this letter refers to the 21 appointment of two (2) members of the Stoney Point 22 community to the -- a negotiation team. And there would 23 be two (2) members of Kettle Point on the group. And 24 the letter refers to working in cooperation with each 25 other. And attached to that letter is a letter dated
311 September 22, 1993 from Mr. George to E.E. Hobbs. 2 And was there an agreement entered into 3 between the Band Council and E.E. Hobbs and an agreement 4 entered into between the Band Council and -- I mean E.E. 5 Hobbs and people from Stoney Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And at Tab 10 of Exhibit 219, the 8 minute book in front of you, there's a minute of the 9 Council meeting of September 30, 1993, it's Tab 10 and 10 on page 2 at the bottom of the page, there's a 11 reference: 12 "Memorandum of Understanding 13 pertaining to Camp Ipperwash/Stoney 14 Point." 15 And a reference to: 16 "Regarding the retention of E.E. Hobbs 17 & Associates Ltd. Development 18 Consultants for carrying out certain 19 services on behalf of the groups 20 involved." 21 And at the top of the page it goes on to 22 read, page 6: 23 "To get the negotiations started 24 between the two (2) groups, Memorandum 25 of Understanding was agreed upon and
321 needs signing. Received an identical 2 signed MOU dated September 6th, 1993 3 from E.E. Hobbs & Associates signed by 4 Carl George. Chief looking for 5 authorization from Council to sign 6 identical agreement." 7 And I see that you obtained that 8 agreement subject to funding being provided? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So that you were working with Carl 11 George on the issue of the Stoney Point, and what was 12 E.E. Hobbs asked to do? I know there's a letter here, 13 it's at Tab 95 of the black book. I'm sorry that we 14 have so many books, but it's simply the nature of the 15 beast. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: The document at Tab 95 is Inquiry 20 Document Number 9000036 and it's a copy of a letter. 21 The first page, actually, is a fax cover sheet from 22 someone at E.E. Hobbs to Mr. Ross. What I'm interested 23 in is a -- the letter to you dated September 16th, 1993. 24 Did you receive this letter? 25 A: Yes, we did.
331 Q: And I note that you -- does your 2 signature appear on page 4? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Perhaps we could mark the letter 5 without the fax cover sheet as the next exhibit, it 6 would be Exhibit 242. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-242, You Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-242. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-242: Document Number 9000036 11 Letter from E.E. Hobbs and 12 Associates Ltd. To Chief 13 Thomas Bressette Re: 14 Grievances and long 15 outstanding issues 16 confronting the Chippewas of 17 Kettle Point and Stoney 18 Point Sept. 16/93 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the scope of work that's 22 referred to in the third paragraph had four (4) 23 elements, as I understand it, one (1) to pursue the 24 Department of National Defence to provide funding for 25 the work to be undertaken under the agreement. So, what
341 you were trying to do was to get money from DND? 2 A: No, E.E. Hobbs was supposed to get 3 the money for this particular work. That's -- that's 4 what we had agreed to. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: That's why, in the motion that 7 preceded this, it said, subject to funding from DND. 8 Q: Did funding ever come from DND? 9 A: I can't be too sure on that. 10 Q: What else was -- item number 2 is -- 11 refers to organize, analyse, and present all available 12 information including the views of the Elders. 13 A: Just like you and all your books, we 14 had boxes of information. We had a whole lot of 15 archeological information in our office. And I think 16 Maynard had the same documents as we had, except he -- 17 he had them in his box and we had ours in our filing 18 cabinets. 19 Q: And then they were to provide -- the 20 third item is provide opinions with stated reasons as to 21 respective rights and interests? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you -- I know this is 24 described later in the document, but what was your 25 understanding that that referred to?
351 A: Well, I think it was -- he was 2 suppose to be discussing the information. Not only 3 through the government's records that they kept but also 4 the views and ideas that were coming from our Elders at 5 that time, he was suppose to meet and discuss these 6 issues with them. 7 And then come back and basically outline 8 an opinion with people's basically the rights that they 9 were interested to ensure were looked after in the 10 negotiations. 11 Q: And did this include -- did the work 12 that E.E. Hobbs was supposed to do include looking at 13 the one (1) Band, two (2) Band issue? 14 A: Well, he was going to -- not 15 respectively get into that issue but try to find a way 16 for us to collectively agree on -- on matters. That was 17 the intent of him coming to work with us. 18 Q: So that it would work collectively, 19 the two (2) groups to try to sort out the issues? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the problems? And then lastly 22 to provide advice with respect to options available 23 related to the settlement of outstanding land issues 24 including the 1942 taking of Stoney Point Reserve Number 25 43?
361 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it -- I understand that 3 E.E. Hobbs did some work and the -- at the same time Mr. 4 Gulevitch continued his work as well. Now I take you to 5 Tab 75 -- 75 of the black book. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Was there a community meeting, do 10 you recall, on October 12th, 1993? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And have you seen this document 13 which purports to be the comments by Glenn George? It's 14 Inquiry Document 9000052 for October 12, 1993, have you 15 seen this document before, sir? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall anything about 18 the meeting? I know it's a long time ago and others 19 have said it's only lawyers that ask these types of 20 questions. But, do you recall anything about a 21 community meeting in October 1993? 22 A: I -- I don't remember. 23 Q: Okay. Could I take you then to Tab 24 76 of the black book. This is a copy of a letter from - 25 - to you dated October 26th, 1993 and I believe it's
371 from Ron George, it's the fax cover sheet. Did you -- 2 do you recall receiving this letter? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this relates to the negotiations 5 with the Department of National Defence? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Perhaps we'll mark that as the next 8 exhibit. It would be two forty (240) -- 9 THE REGISTRAR: 243. Yes it is, could I 10 have the document number? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 243. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Inquiry Document 13 9000054. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-243: Document Number 9000054 Oct. 16 26/93 letter to Chief 17 Bressette from Chief Carl 18 George Re: Kettle 19 Point/Stoney Point - 20 National Defence. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then, at the next page, there's a 24 memorandum to you, it's Inquiry Document 9000058 from 25 Tony Ross dated November 4th, 1993. Did you receive
381 this memorandum? Do you recall receiving this, sir? 2 A: Yes, I believe I -- I got this. 3 Q: And that again relates to 4 negotiations? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 7 next exhibit, it would be 2... 8 THE REGISTRAR: ...44, Your Honour. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Forty-four (44)? 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-244: Document Number 9000058 12 Nov.04/93 fax to Kettle 13 Point, Att. Chiefs Tom 14 Bressette and Carl George 15 from E. Anthony Ross Re: 16 First Nations Claims against 17 Canada. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And at -- we could go back to the 21 Council meetings for a moment, and take you to Tab 13? 22 This is a minute of a Council meeting on November 2nd, 23 1993, and if I could take you to page 2. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
391 Q: And there's a reference at the top 2 of page 2 to E. E. Hobbs & Associates and the attendance 3 of Paul Powers and a David Ross from, I take it, E.E. 4 Hobbs & Associates? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Not our Mr. Ross who we have here? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And there's a reference in the third 9 paragraph: 10 "They were contracted to identify if 11 there were two (2) Bands or one (1) 12 Band. Had a meeting with the other 13 group in Toronto last Friday, October 14 29, 1993 and clearly pointed out to 15 them that it was one (1) Band and not 16 two (2) separate Bands and separation 17 was not in the cards." 18 Can you tell me, who is making that -- 19 this is recording a statement made by whom, that there 20 was a meeting with the other group? 21 A: These two (2) people, Paul Powers 22 and David Ross. 23 Q: And the advice that they had given 24 you was that there was one (1) Band, not two (2) Bands? 25 A: Yes.
401 Q: And they indicated they had given 2 the same advice to the -- Mr. George -- Carl George's 3 group? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And they also advised you that -- it 6 goes on to say: 7 "They felt confident that this was 8 accepted by the other group and 9 they're now willing to consolidate and 10 must negotiate from strength, not 11 division." 12 Is that -- does this minute accurately 13 record what they advised you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- there was, I take it, a 16 discussion about money? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there -- there was a substantial 19 cost with respect to the work being done by E.E. Hobbs? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 14, 22 it's a minute of a meeting on November 16, 1993, and 23 again at page 2, there's a reference to E.E. Hobbs and 24 Associates? 25 A: Yes.
411 Q: And this time, Mr. Ernie Hobbs and 2 Paul Powers attended the meeting and Mr. Carl George was 3 also present? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this relates, principally, to 6 money as I understand it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And ultimately, with the decision -- 9 how much did the Band ultimately pay to E.E. Hobbs for 10 this work? 11 A: I don't know exactly how much we did 12 pay to them. I know we got into a disagreement, 13 basically because the wording was changed and the 14 invoices that were coming in were rather large. 15 Q: And ultimately was the contract 16 terminated with them? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I've seen somewhere a reference to-- 19 A: I believe it was -- 20 Q: -- a hundred and seventy-nine 21 thousand (179,000) -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- but I can't find it now. Does 24 that sound about right? 25 A: That sounds about the figure that we
421 were billed for and initially it was supposed to be a 2 hundred thousand (100,000) and it was going higher and 3 higher. And we didn't want to just wind up in a 4 position where he was taking us to Court and -- and 5 making us pay him more than what we had originally 6 agreed to. 7 Q: Then in the fall of 1993, I 8 understand you met with Mr. John Chretien during the 9 course the election? 10 A: Yes, he was campaigning in North 11 Lambton area and he was staying at the Holiday Inn down 12 in Point Edward. And at that time, Ovide Mercredi was 13 in the area and he was the National Chief then, and he 14 was staying in the same hotel and he ran into John 15 Chretien. And I -- I recall that day because he called 16 my house and he said, Can -- can you get to Sarnia very 17 quickly? 18 And I said, what for? He said, well, Mr. 19 Chretien's here and I've managed to get a meeting with 20 him. And he's campaigning to be the next Prime Minister 21 and it may be worth your while to come and discuss your 22 land claim issue with him. At which time I -- I did 23 quickly drive down to Sarnia and did meet with Mr. 24 Mercredi and Mr. Chretien in -- in a separate room and 25 we -- we had a discussion.
431 Q: And the -- what was the discussion 2 about? The... 3 A: I recall in 1972, my father-in-law 4 was the Chief of the Band and he had confronted Mr. 5 Chretien, who was the Minister of Indian Affairs at the 6 time, at the gates of Camp Ipperwash regarding the 7 taking of Stoney Point lands. 8 And Mr. Chretien basically read the 9 documentation that was presented by Chief Shawkence that 10 stated that the land was appropriated for use for the 11 effective prosecution of the war and as a basic infantry 12 training unit. And when it -- the war was -- the use 13 was concluded, it was to be returned. 14 Mr. Chretien basically stated at that 15 time he would return to Ottawa and make every effort 16 possible to have the land returned. 17 That never really materialized and he 18 gave a commitment to the Chief then that when he -- he 19 would go back and raise this matter with Prime Minister 20 Trudeau at the time. 21 That never happened either, so my 22 question to him was, Mr. Chretien, you, when you were 23 the Minister of Indian Affairs, gave a commitment once 24 and you failed to live up to that. 25 I said, When -- if you are elected to be
441 the Prime Minister of Canada, what will you do with our 2 land? We're asking now again, you want to be the Prime 3 Minister, you're looking for people to support you. 4 What's your position on this? 5 And at that point, he said, Look, he 6 said, if I'm elected to be the Prime Minister, he said, 7 I'll tell you yes or I'll tell you no. You have my word 8 on that, he said. But I will -- I will live up to the 9 word that I gave, and that was ultimately what he stated 10 and nothing more. 11 He said, I don't want to pursue this. We 12 can talk about this all day. Mr. Mercredi starting 13 lobbying him for finances and things for the First 14 Nations in Canada. And after the meeting he didn't give 15 any -- any statement to Mr. Mercredi, just stated, Well, 16 we'll meet again, Chief, is what he said. 17 And when we left the room, the National 18 Chief told me I can't believe you got a -- got a 19 commitment out of Chretien like that and he seemed quite 20 surprised that he would say that. 21 And my response was, Well, he still has 22 to get elected to carry out any commitment he given and 23 kind of laughed about that and left. 24 Q: Okay. And could I take you to -- as 25 we know, they were elected --
451 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and Mr. Ron Irwin became the 3 Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs in the new 4 government and could I take you to Tab 79 in the black 5 book, please. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 10 9000076, and I note on page 2, that you were to receive 11 a copy of the document? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: As was, I take it, Maynard George, 14 refers to Maynard T. George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall receiving a copy 17 of this document? 18 A: Yes, we did. 19 Q: And it's a letter dated February 20 2nd, 1994 from Mr. Bud Wildman, Minister responsible for 21 Native Affairs and the Government of Ontario and this 22 letter is simply urging the Federal Government to settle 23 the claim of the First Nation for the return of Stoney 24 Point? 25 A: Yes.
461 Q: And, in fact, in that very same 2 month, you were able to issue a press release -- 3 A: - eighty-two (82). 4 Q: Just if I could take you to Tab 81. 5 It's Inquiry Document 9000224. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And this announces that on February 8 22nd, 1994 at approximately 6:20 p.m. you received a 9 tele -- telephone call from the Department of National 10 Defence informing you that the Camp Ipperwash Base would 11 be closed due to budget restraints and subsequently that 12 the land would be returned to your First Nation. 13 And did you send this document out to 14 members of your community? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that was -- did you -- I take it 17 you sent it out on February 22nd? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 20 exhibit, it's Exhibit 245? 21 THE REGISTRAR: 245 your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-245: Document Number 24 9000224 Feb.22/94 from 25 Chief Tom Bressette to
471 all members of the 2 Kettle and Stony Point 3 First Nation 4 announcing the return 5 of the land. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And you refer in that -- 9 announcement to a number of things, including you note, 10 that: 11 "There are still many outstanding 12 issues that have yet to be resolved. 13 We cannot let these issues overshadow 14 what has happened here tonight. These 15 issues including compensation for loss 16 of economic use of the land, clean-up 17 of the land and the claims by locatees 18 or location ticket holders will be 19 addressed in due time. On behalf of 20 the Kettle and Stony Point First 21 Nations Council, I commend all of 22 those who have contributed to the 23 fifty-two (52) year old -- two (2) 24 year struggle for the return of this 25 land and invite all members to join us
481 today at the Kettle and Stony Point 2 community centre. We've scheduled a 3 press conference 1:00 p.m. followed by 4 refreshments." 5 And I take it that was to be on February 6 23rd, the day after? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the -- I don't want to get into 9 the details of negotiation, but now in March of 1995, 10 you're still working -- negotiating with the Federal 11 Government -- I mean, 2005, to get back the land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, if I could take you back to the 14 minutes for a moment. And I don't want to go through 15 these minutes, but in 1994 the -- there were a number of 16 issues being dealt with by the Band Council including 17 dealing with the Federal Government and dealing with 18 issues within the Band between -- with respect to Stoney 19 Point and the issue about one (1) Band or two (2) Bands? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And at Tab 18 there's a minute of a 22 general Band meeting on May 5th, 1994. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And the -- these are minutes of that 25 Band meeting or a transcript of the -- what was said at
491 the Band meeting. Is that what this refers to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And Mr. Carl George attended that 4 meeting? 5 A: Yes, he did. 6 Q: And can you tell us briefly what the 7 purpose of the meeting was? 8 A: We wanted to update people. First, 9 we wanted to make the announcement that we were building 10 a new school. And trying to deal with I guess to move 11 ahead with that. 12 I don't think we ever got to that because 13 we -- we spent the majority of the time dealing with -- 14 with the -- this issue of the document that was created 15 by us, if it's in here, yes. 16 Q: The document you're referring to is 17 the memorandum with respect to the principles of 18 negotiation? 19 A: Yes. Or was this at another 20 meeting, I'm not sure. But we were basically trying to 21 -- trying to get our people aware that we were working 22 trying to resolve our issues internally. And we wanted 23 to go forward to the government with a -- with a united 24 front like that statement that stayed in unity. This is 25 the meeting I'm not sure.
501 Q: The agenda items that were noted on 2 this particular minute were, 1) Education. A new school 3 which was ultimately built and opening in the fall of 4 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And secondly, the separation of 7 Kettle and Stony Point there's a referendum vote, that 8 was a topic of discussion? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I note that the introduction -- 11 you made introductory remarks and about the position of 12 the Department of National Defence? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you make a comment in the first 15 paragraph: 16 "We have been contacted by the 17 Department of National Defence and 18 given a formal response to a letter 19 that we had written to them asking 20 them to consider paying some damages 21 to individual land holders -- land 22 owners as well as damages to the Band 23 and to clean up the property and to 24 return it and what we have received. 25 There was a response from the
511 government that says very clearly that 2 they are indicating that: 3 "We are prepared to enter into 4 negotiation with the Band, return the 5 land, clean the land and nothing 6 else." 7 And on the 2nd page, you go on to talk 8 about this issue and you raise a concern at the bottom 9 of the second -- the first full paragraph on that page: 10 "Well, there are some folks occupying 11 this land and I don't think they're 12 going to be prepared to go in there as 13 long as there's anybody sitting on the 14 land. As long as they are, they 15 hinder the process of the 16 environmental assessment going ahead 17 and that, as such, may let the 18 Government of Canada off the hook by 19 saying the Band refuses to let them go 20 in and clean the land." 21 And was that a concern that the 22 government had raised with you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then at the bottom of the page, 25 you get -- you deal with the issue:
521 "We've made attempts to try and 2 resolve this thing to do what we could 3 to bring people together but out 4 attempts have been unsuccessful." 5 And you talk about the: 6 "The whole interest of the Band of 7 every member who has some kind of 8 claim to that land is in jeopardy, at 9 this point, and I don't know how to 10 address that issue. 11 I don't know if people are aware that 12 we've spent in excess of fifty 13 thousand dollars ($50,000) doing 14 research, and the bill is going up, 15 trying to find out whether there is 16 proof that there ever existed two (2) 17 bands in this area or not and all the 18 research that we've got has looked 19 into and brought out the case that 20 there's only been one (1) Band here. 21 I don't know where the issue of 22 whether there are two (2) bands here 23 ever came from, but I know from 24 research that I've seen, that I've 25 personally read, that there's not
531 anything. I don't know how many people 2 in this community have actually sat 3 down and extensively read all that 4 information, but they're just relying 5 on a few individuals to tell them that 6 information exists because we -- 7 repeatedly, we have asked that if this 8 information exists, please table it 9 and show it to the Council so that we 10 get on with business. 11 To date, nothing has been done to 12 verify the existence of two (2) 13 separate and distinct operating -- 14 bands operating here. 15 There are other communities in Ontario 16 and across the country that have more 17 than one (1) land base. They are 18 governed under one (1) Band Council 19 and that's the way this community has 20 been since it separated from Sarnia in 21 1919. 22 All of that information is in the Band 23 Office for anyone who wants to go in 24 there and have a look at it. We have 25 Linda Henry working in that office and
541 she's assisting our researcher. So, 2 if there's anything anybody would like 3 to see, it's there for their viewing 4 or reading." 5 And the -- that was a statement that you 6 made at that meeting? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Perhaps, before I go on, we could 9 mark that the next exhibit. It's general Band meeting 10 minutes, May 5th, 1994 and it would be Exhibit 246. 11 THE REGISTRAR: It's already in as part 12 of the package. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 219. Oh, excuse me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's P-219. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm getting ahead of 16 myself. It's already an exhibit, it's part of 219. 17 THE WITNESS: And was there a -- I see 18 that there was a long discussion and I don't want to go 19 through the discussion, but I take it that the result of 20 the meeting that there was a decision, as noted on page 21 40 of Tab 18, that there would be no referendum vote on 22 separation? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
551 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And a decision was made to go ahead 5 and build the school? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Then, if I could take you to Tab 19 8 of Exhibit 219, there's another minute -- it's a minute 9 of June 3rd, 1994 and it refers to -- at the bottom of 10 page 6 or the second page, which is actually page 6, to 11 the income tax issues involving -- involving Stoney 12 Point and the work that was being done for the Band on 13 that issue? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at Tab 20, there's a minute of 16 July 21, 1994 and at the second page of that document, 17 it's page 5 of the actual minutes, there's a reference 18 at the bottom of the page: 19 "Environmental study will take about 20 one and a half (1 1/2) years to 21 negotiate and get it in the works and 22 another year for Stoney Point to clean 23 up. The Chief states we need to have 24 something in place on how it will be 25 used. Liz to meet with Clifford
561 George to discuss ideas for a 2 community development plan for Stoney 3 Point." 4 And, I take it that refers to the -- what 5 will be done with Stoney Point once it comes back? 6 A: Well, it must be. I wasn't at this 7 meeting and I do recall asking that this be put on the 8 agenda. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And Liz addressed it. 11 Q: And there's a reference: 12 "Ipperwash management plan." 13 And I know you weren't, as you've just 14 said, at the meeting, but was there -- there were 15 discussions going on with Mr. Kobayashi, the Park 16 Manager for the Pinery and Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 about a co-management plan? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then at the bottom of that third 20 page, there's a note: 21 "Liz to draft a letter to Base 22 Commander at Camp Ipperwash for 23 Chief's signature regarding Department 24 of National Defence to continue 25 supplying water to the residents who
571 utilize the water system at Camp 2 Ipperwash." 3 Was there some indication to the Band 4 Council that the Army might cut off water? 5 A: I believe we did have to get into 6 that issue. They were planning on shutting the water 7 off and we told them that we wanted them to continue, 8 people were living there and -- 9 Q: This is in June 1994 -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- before the occupation of the 12 built up area. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did, in fact, the Band Council 15 write the letter to -- 16 A: Well, that was council's direction 17 is, look, we're going to do this in -- in support of the 18 people and the letter was drafted and sent, I believe. 19 Q: Okay. And at Tab 21 there's a 20 minute of a meeting on September 8th, 1994? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there's a reference to Camp 23 Ipperwash and the environmental assessment and there was 24 a -- it says: 25 "DND going -- doing an environmental
581 assessment of Stoney Point. DND 2 committee have been interviewing 3 environmental experts so as to have 4 someone assist in having us put forth 5 our concerns in the terms of reference 6 and to make sure DND is doing their 7 job. 8 Five (5) applicants interviewed, they 9 went through a second interview and 10 have selected a candidate." 11 So you selected a candidate to work with 12 you as your consultant -- environmental consultant? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then there's a -- at Tab 23 15 there's a Council meeting minute of April 25, 1995. 16 A: What one is that again? Tab -- 17 Q: At Tab 23. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And at Page 2 there's a reference, 23 simply to a claim, by the Band against Canada with 24 respect to Camp Ipperwash? 25 A: Yes.
591 Q: And then at the top of the next 2 page, there's a reference to a claim by Maynard T. 3 George, against the Band? Maynard T. George had sued 4 the Band Council? 5 A: Oh, yes, he did. 6 Q: And on that same page, there's -- 7 below it, there's: 8 "Discussion with Carl O. George and 9 groups lawyer and Mr. Carl George 10 attended with a lawyer to discuss 11 issues relating to his group and the 12 Band Council." 13 It's on the third page, there's a 14 reference to it. This is the same minute of -- at Tab 15 23, Chief Bressette. 16 A: The third page? 17 Q: "Discussion with Carl O. George." 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Do you recall Mr. George attending 20 this meeting in April of 1995? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I'm not sure, he must have been. I 25 think the lawyer was represent -- was at the meeting
601 telling us he met with him and giving us an update and 2 the Council was telling the lawyer, I'm not sure that 3 Carl was there. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: In the minutes that I looked at, the 6 -- who was present and they're not listed as being 7 present at the meeting. 8 Q: Oh, so I've misread that. 9 A: Yeah -- 10 Q: You're right, they aren't present 11 and it -- presumably it's simply someone updating -- 12 A: The lawyer was representing the 13 Council, he had met with them. 14 Q: And updating you on what was going 15 on? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Then at Tab 24, there's a minute of 18 a Council meeting dated May 9, 1995. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at Page 2 of this document, 21 there's an issue with respect to environmental 22 assessment and there's a note: 23 "Request came from legal counsel for a 24 motion to put in place authorizing 25 Chief Bressette to sign affidavits for
611 injunction to prevent M.N. Dillon from 2 starting the environmental assessment 3 of Camp Ipperwash which was to start 4 shortly thereafter." 5 Can you tell us what this issue was 6 about, Chief Bressette and why you were contemplating 7 action against the Federal Government over M.M. Dillon? 8 A: Well, we were told we were going to 9 be involved in this process. We were going to be 10 involved at the selection of the people doing the work. 11 At that time we had a -- an issue with 12 the Federal Government because we were excluded. And 13 one (1) of the concerns that was raised was, we -- we 14 had a -- a name given to us because there was -- when 15 they do these contract awardings, there were about seven 16 (7) companies, I believe at the time, who were up for 17 interviews. 18 And what happened was when -- when we 19 were going through this process, I guess the guy from 20 Dillon was telling the other people, I already have the 21 job, might as well not apply, and dropping hints like 22 that. 23 And so we -- we met with DND and we -- we 24 wrote Dillon -- M.M. Dillon -- on a piece of paper and 25 we put it in a sealed envelope and we handed it to the
621 Department of National Defence folks and said, Here's 2 the name of the person who won your contract award and 3 they said, No, we -- we don't believe that. 4 And I said, Well, here, keep it and we 5 told them to keep it until they opened it because they 6 said they were going to advise us when the -- the 7 selection was done. 8 What happened, they said, We couldn't 9 possibly know who was hired. And we said, We already 10 know. And this went on, we sat at the table with them 11 and the -- the name was on there. And we had sealed the 12 envelope and put markings on there, wrote the date on 13 there, and said, Here, the seal won't be broken until 14 you come back and when you open the -- open the envelope 15 the name of the contractor will be there. 16 And that's ultimately who won and that's 17 ultimately whose name was in that envelope. They -- 18 they didn't like that -- the way we handled that, but it 19 was just making a point that we had felt that there was 20 some dealings done to hand somebody a contract like that 21 was inappropriate and we were not involved. And we then 22 proceeded to put an injunction blocking Dillon from 23 doing that work. 24 So, I guess the government didn't like 25 the approach we used. They were very unhappy, but we
631 just wanted to make a point that, you know, we're not 2 foolish and they couldn't do things that we wouldn't 3 catch on to and we wanted a process where we were 4 involved. 5 Like, they said that we would be involved 6 in the selection, we'd be involved in -- this was an 7 environmental matter, so those -- all those things are 8 in the history books and that's what occurred at that 9 time. 10 Q: So, the -- the Band took the action 11 that the Band did with respect to M.M. Dillon because 12 the Government -- the Federal Government -- had promised 13 to consult you about the -- the -- the choice of the 14 consultant and you felt that they didn't and -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- had made a choice without your 17 input? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And, so, you commenced an action and 20 -- with respect, was -- what happened? Did M.M. Dillon 21 ultimately get the contract? 22 A: No, they didn't. 23 Q: And if I could take you to the next 24 minute at Tab 25. 25
641 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, at Tab 25, there's a minute 4 of a Council meeting, June 20th, 1995 and it's -- at 5 page 2, there's a reference: 6 "Draft statement of principles for 7 negotiation of the Camp Ipperwash 8 claim to the Stoney Point Reserve." 9 And there's -- it says that: 10 "A statement of principles will be 11 going out to the community once final 12 acceptance to keep community members 13 informed on what's happening with the 14 process for negotiations." 15 And we've heard of these statement of 16 principles for negotiating the Stony Point claim before. 17 These were the -- the document that you were negotiating 18 with Mr. Carl George and his group? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And ultimately we'll see that those 21 statement of principles where you attempted to deliver 22 with your letter of August 3rd, 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at Tab 26 there's a minute of a 25 meeting of July 3rd, 1995 and the first item in that
651 minutes is Camp Military -- Ipperwash Military Police 2 concerns and then it's noted, "Unscheduled Item." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the Military Police had 5 contacted you about issues at Camp Ipperwash at Stoney 6 Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so the two (2) gentlemen from 9 the military police, Mr. Taylor and Mr. Smith attended 10 at the Banc Council meeting? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there's a -- the minute says: 13 "Here tonight to see if a consolidated 14 group can help resolve some of the 15 problems. Chief states that the 16 reality is that it's a law enforcement 17 matter but the law is not being 18 enforced. 19 Doug Smith stated that their mandate 20 is to provide law enforcement so that 21 the people in the built-up area are 22 safe. Chief and Council say that they 23 do not support or advocate what some 24 of the people are doing there at 25 Stoney Point.
661 Carl George, who was presented --" 2 -- I think that should be present: 3 "-- stated that he will talk to Cliff 4 George and others about the 5 discussions that took place at a 6 meeting tonight and ask for their 7 support regarding the suggestion. 8 Carl states he agrees with the 9 statement of principles but two (2) 10 additional items have to be added. 11 Then it should be sent out so people 12 know what is happening with the 13 negotiation process. 14 Chief to send out a letter to the 15 community that Band members should 16 stay away from down there until the 17 disputes are resolved." 18 Does that accurately describe what 19 happened at the meeting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So there was two (2) issues. The 22 issue of the police and working -- and discussions with 23 Carl George about -- and Mr. Clifford George about what 24 could be done to resolve the problems with the police, 25 and secondly the principles of negotiation are being
671 referred to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And again on the second page, the 4 draft statement of principles are referred to and 5 additions were to be made that Mr. Carl George had 6 requested on page 2? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And those additions were to add more 9 people from -- add more positions so that people from 10 Stoney Point can apply? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Then on July -- at the next tab at 13 Tab 27 of the third page there's a reference to Carl 14 George, a statement of principles and again there was a 15 discussion with Mr. George on the statement of 16 principles for negotiating the claim? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Then on July 29, 1995, as we know, 19 members of your community entered the built-up area at 20 Camp Ipperwash. Were you aware, prior to the -- July 21 29th, that the move into the built-up area was going to 22 take place? 23 A: I think there was rumour that 24 something was going to happen. I wasn't, like, 25 genuinely knew. I didn't have a very clear -- somebody
681 came and said this is going to happen on this day. 2 But there was a sort of a statement being 3 around that there was going to be some move to take over 4 that area. 5 Q: And when did you first learn that 6 this actually had happened? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I believe I got a phone call and 11 then somebody said it was on the news, so that's how I 12 learned about it. 13 Q: Okay. And what was your reaction as 14 Chief to the takeover of the built-up area? 15 A: Well, I was just kind of shocked 16 that the Military just decided to go parading down the 17 highway with -- I understood it as someone said they -- 18 they drove a forklift truck and whatever they could take 19 and went parading down the highway with it towards 20 Northville, that's -- that's a small community just to 21 the east side. 22 A: And the Band Council discussed this 23 issue? 24 A: I believe so. 25 Q: And at Exhibit 219, Tab 28, there's
691 a minute of the Council meeting on August 1st, 1995 that 2 started at 6:15 and one (1) of the items was: 3 "General Band meeting following at 4 7:00 p.m. at the community centre 5 regarding Camp Ipperwash/Stoney Point 6 reason for short Council meeting 7 tonight." 8 And there was a general meeting that -- 9 later that evening? Is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the minutes of that meeting 12 which is Inquiry Document 6000354 are at Tab 29 of the 13 book -- the black book, Chief Bressette. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that document has been marked 16 Exhibit 43 in these Proceedings. And the persons listed 17 under Chief and Council present, those are the Chief and 18 you were there, but it's the Council -- members of the 19 Band Council who are present at the meeting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you just tell me, Chief 22 Bressette, how many of the people who were on Band 23 Council in 1995 had a connection with Stoney Point, 24 starting with yourself. 25 Your grandmother originally lived at
701 Stoney Point? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: What about Mr. Bob Bressette? 4 A: Yes, he had land interests there. 5 Q: I can't -- I can't hear you, Chief-- 6 A: Yes, he did. Bob had interest 7 there. I think Bernard George has interest, Norman 8 Shawnoo, Ron Bressette, Al Bressette, and Gerald George. 9 Q: All have connections with Stoney 10 Point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it they're family 13 connections, members of their family? We've heard from 14 some of these people. 15 A: Pretty much everybody here has 16 relatives at Stoney Point. 17 Q: And what about Mr. Bud George and 18 Mr. Steve Wolfe? 19 A: I can't speak to that. 20 Q: And Mr. Brian Monague. 21 A: Monague. 22 Q: Monague. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Does he have connections with Stoney 25 Point through his relatives?
711 A: I know his -- he says he's related 2 to people directly from there. And I don't know what 3 he's -- I guess you'd have to ask Brian that yourself 4 what is -- he was -- 5 Q: The others that you've mentioned, 6 you do know about their connection with their relatives? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what about Ms. Thunder, the 9 Band -- 10 A: Yes, she -- she has as well. 11 Q: And the -- at the meeting, the 12 meeting lasted a number of hours and a number of people 13 spoke. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you briefly state from your 16 perspective what the concerns -- what you took to be the 17 principle concerns of the people at the community 18 meeting about what was happening in -- what had happened 19 at Camp Ipperwash/Stoney Point? 20 A: Well, there -- there was quite a few 21 concerns being raised in regards to people who are not 22 from our community were basically controlling access and 23 entrance to the place that no one knew who they were or 24 where they were from. They all of a sudden showed up 25 and they were taking a role, denying people entrance or
721 locking gates and things like that. 2 And the community felt that people from 3 other communities should not be on those lands because 4 they feared that we would fall into some kind of 5 difficult problems such as what existed in Oka. 6 I know that was fresh on a lot of 7 people's minds at the time and they wanted the -- the -- 8 the Chief and Council to do something about it. They 9 said, you know, Those are our lands and, you know, 10 you're our Chief and Council we elected to basically 11 deal with issues that confront us. So, you know, do -- 12 do something about this. 13 And, generally, that's what we were told 14 to do is look after our responsibility. 15 Q: And the concerns about -- that were 16 expressed about outsiders without going through the -- 17 the minutes in -- in any detail were concerns that had 18 been raised, existed prior to the takeover of the built- 19 up area, I take it? Is that -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall Exhibit 43, how it 22 was created? Was the meeting taped and then a 23 transcript made of the tape? 24 A: Yes, they tape these meetings and 25 whatever people say, they transcribe them into -- into a
731 written word so people have a record of what happened at 2 the meetings. 3 Q: And, as a result of the meeting, the 4 First Nation issued a press release -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- as I understand it and that in 7 the blue memorandum -- blue -- blue folder in front of 8 you, there's a copy of a press release. It should be 9 there. Keep going down. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: This one? 14 Q: Yes. Is that a copy -- it's Inquiry 15 Document 3000370 -- is that a copy of the press release 16 issued on August the 2nd, 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 19 next exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-246, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-246: Document Number 3000370 Aug. 23 02/95 Press Release from the 24 Chippewas of Kettle and 25 Stony Point Re: Negotiations
741 with Dept. Of National 2 Defence. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And I note that the press release 6 refers to the Band meeting and the fact that the Band 7 members favour a speedy return of the lands. And then 8 it -- in the second full paragraph: 9 "People attending the meeting stated 10 that they want to work with the Band 11 members occupying the Stoney Point 12 land to -- reunify the community torn 13 apart by the illegal appropriation and 14 continued use by the Military of half 15 our land base. 16 It was the general consensus of those 17 present that non-Band members in 18 occupation of Camp Ipperwash should be 19 thanked for their support, but should 20 be asked to leave Stoney Port -- Point 21 as it is not now, and never was, their 22 home. 23 We believe that without the presence 24 of disrupting outside influences, the 25 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation
751 will be able to continue negotiations 2 with the Department of National 3 Defence for the expeditious cleanup 4 and return of the Stoney Point lands. 5 And further community meetings as well 6 as Elder consultations will be held in 7 the near future to -- try to resolve 8 conflicts among Band members as well 9 as conflicts between Band members and 10 the Department of Nation Defence." 11 And the press release refers to the 12 concerns about outsiders being at Camp Ipperwash? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, it's my understanding that it's 15 quite normal that people will go from one (1) First 16 Nation to another First Nation to support the other 17 First Nation in --with respect to their struggles. In 18 this case the struggle at -- by your First Nation 19 against the Federal Government to get the land back. 20 And -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- that this is a normal -- that 23 this happens often among First Nations? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And why was the Kettle and Stony
761 Point First Nation so concerned about people coming and 2 giving support to the people living at Stony Point? 3 A: I -- I believe, you know, when you 4 look at the discussions that occurred in the Band 5 meeting, there was statements that some people were 6 making that they didn't want an Oka situation in -- in 7 our community. 8 That, you know, they -- they also, as 9 well, I think there were comments in here that basically 10 related to the fact that someone had approached somebody 11 and asked them who they were. And, you know, they 12 stated a name and said that they were, I think the word 13 that was used was a shit disturber. 14 And those kind of concerns were being 15 generated because people were making those statements 16 that they were being told things and they didn't want to 17 see any -- anybody getting hurt over this issue. That's 18 what the whole concern always was. We didn't want to 19 see anybody become injured as a result of all of this. 20 Q: And so that -- do I understand you 21 correctly, you weren't concerned about you personally as 22 Chief, weren't concerned about other people coming and 23 supporting the First Nation. 24 But there were concerns about people 25 coming and doing things that would be -- adversely
771 reflect on the First Nation? 2 A: You know, it's pretty clear in there 3 as well, the Elders were concerned that people weren't 4 even from there were coming in and telling them they 5 couldn't be on the land. And be an exclusionary of who 6 could come and go on the land. They were concerned 7 about that. 8 It seemed like -- I guess the one (1) 9 concern being raised was if you're from Kettle Point you 10 weren't welcome. And if you were from anywhere else, 11 the door was wide open and the people who were wanting 12 to go there were people that actually were the 13 descendants of the people that own -- had location 14 tickets there. 15 Q: And were the concerns -- the 16 concerns that members of the community had are set out 17 in Exhibit 43, the -- the minutes? 18 A: Yes. That's generally the concerns 19 that we, as a Council, take from the membership when -- 20 when those matters are -- are raised; that we have to 21 deal with them. And we tried to deal with them in a way 22 -- issued that press release and basically say we 23 appreciated the support but because we were into 24 negotiations we wanted to continue on that process. 25 Q: Perhaps now would be a good time for
781 the morning break? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Very good 3 time. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:37 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:55 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Chief Bressette, before the break, 17 we were talking about the press release that was marked 18 as an exhibit. I believe it was -- 19 THE REGISTRAR: 246. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: -- 246, and we were also looking at 23 Exhibit 43, which is at Tab 29 of the black book, the 24 minutes of the general Council meeting on August 1st and 25 one (1) of the things that was discussed at that
791 meeting, as I understand it, were the principles of 2 negotiations? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if I can take you to Tab 30, and 5 the page following the press release, there's a 6 document, it's a letter dated August 3, 1995, Kettle 7 and Stoney Point Council and it's -- this document's 8 already been marked as Exhibit 30. 9 It's Inquiry Document 3000370 and this is 10 a letter that you wrote to the Kettle and Stoney Point 11 Band members who were occupying Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And this letter refers to the 14 community meeting. It refers to the principles of 15 negotiating the return and the negotiating process, and 16 if I might, in the second full paragraph it says, 17 "First of all, the majority of the 18 community members who attended the 19 community meeting feel the non-Band 20 members occupying the Stoney Point 21 lands should be thanked for their 22 support and respectfully asked to 23 leave. This does not include the Band 24 members." 25 And you're simply, in this letter,
801 repeating what was the general consensus at the meeting? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what did you do with this 4 letter, Chief Bressette? 5 A: There were a number of photocopies 6 of this letter made and we took a large stack of them 7 down to the -- down to the gatehouse at Stoney Point and 8 we asked to see -- speak to whoever was in -- in charge 9 down there and we were basically told nobody was in 10 charge. 11 And then we were basically told that we 12 weren't wanted there, so we turned around, we left the 13 documents there and we told them this is a letter that 14 we'd like for you to disseminate and we -- we proceeded 15 to leave. 16 As we were leaving, someone grabbed a 17 stack of letters and one (1) of the councillors were 18 leaving the gate area and they came and they throw them 19 in the back of the truck that he was driving and they 20 didn't accept the letters. 21 I don't know if they kept any, but that's 22 all I could see, when we were leaving that -- and was 23 reported to me when we got back to the office, that they 24 had thrown the letters in the back of the truck. 25 Q: So, do I take it from what you said
811 that a number of your Band councillors went with you 2 down to the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- Army Camp? And you went in more 5 than one (1) vehicle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so that the letters that you 8 attempted to leave were thrown back into someone's 9 truck? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And shortly after August the 3rd, 12 you went away on vacation. Do you know when you went 13 away on vacation, Chief Bressette, approximately? 14 A: I don't -- really don't remember. I 15 know I hadn't had a vacation for a couple of years and - 16 - and they just decided I needed to have a break and I 17 left. I really don't know, it was I think one (1) of 18 those times where you -- where you start to forget what 19 day it is and things like that, so it was time for me to 20 move aside and let somebody else look after business and 21 I left. 22 Q: And how -- for about -- 23 approximately how long were you away, Chief Bressette? 24 A: I'm not really sure. I -- I wish I 25 could remember all of that, but all I know is I did go
821 on a -- I took a break, whether it was a week or so, I'm 2 not sure. 3 Q: Okay. And -- 4 A: You know, the reason why I -- 5 another reason why I left, I never got to see my family. 6 I was basically consumed with all of this work all along 7 and my children, I never got any -- any time to spend 8 with them all that whole summer. 9 Q: And prior to leaving, was there an 10 attempt made by you or an approach made to you to have 11 Mr. Ovide Mercredi act as a mediator with respect to the 12 issues between the -- among the Band members over Stoney 13 Point? 14 A: Yes, I -- I believe there was a lot 15 of attention in the media what was going on and I did 16 get a call from the National Chief's Office and he did 17 say he had some experience in dealing with these type of 18 matters in the past and that he would be -- offer his 19 services to us if we had asked and I think I -- I did 20 state that at the Band meeting that he did offer to come 21 and try to do some mediation because we had paid 22 mediators before and -- and -- and trying to find 23 solutions and, like you stated, we had spent in the 24 hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to deal with 25 these kinds of issues and -- and they were never
831 resolved. 2 Q: And did -- was there a mediation 3 attempted through Mr. Mercredi? 4 A: I'm not sure whether he actually did 5 -- I don't think he actually did become involved until I 6 had called him on September the 7th. 7 Q: Perhaps, to assist, at Tab 93 of the 8 book that's in front of you, and I know from yesterday 9 your view of newspaper articles, but there is a 10 newspaper article that I would like to take you to, it's 11 Inquiry Document 9000613. 12 It's an article from the London Free 13 Press dated August 4, 1995 and it's written by Julie 14 Carl and there's a reference, Chief Bressette, to you. 15 It says: 16 "Chief Tom Bressette says he has been 17 told natives occupying the Base don't 18 want the National Chief involved." 19 And the -- if you look at the one (1), 20 two (2), three (3), fourth paragraph down, near the 21 picture of Mr. Mercredi -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "Kettle and Stoney Point First 24 Nation Chief, Tom Bressette, said Mercredi, National 25 Chief of First Nations, has -- had offered to act as a
841 mediator, but Bressette, who has not communicated 2 directly with the natives as the Camp said he was given 3 the message they did not want Mercredi to mediate." 4 And do you recall making that -- was 5 that, in fact, correct that you had been told that -- by 6 someone that the Occupiers did not want to mediate 7 through Mr. Mercredi? 8 A: I -- I think so. 9 Q: And perhaps we'll mark that as the 10 next exhibit, it would be 247. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. P-247, Your 12 Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-247. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-247: Document Number 9000613 Aug. 16 04/95 London Free Press 17 Article "Mercredi Mediation 18 in Doubt" 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Then, if we could -- prior to going 22 away on your vacation in August 1995, do you recall if 23 you had any telephone calls or meetings with members of 24 the OPP? 25 A: I'm not sure, I may have.
851 Q: Okay. Do you recall any -- do you 2 recall any meetings with Mr. John Carson? 3 A: Well, Mr. Carson called me quite 4 regularly and when he did I -- I did inform him what the 5 newspaper article said. I -- I didn't have direct 6 communication or didn't have no way of being able to 7 deal with the questions that he had. 8 Q: And do you -- did you have any 9 discussions -- and this is before September 4th, 1995, 10 in the summer of 1995 with Mr. Dale Linton, an OPP 11 officer? 12 A: I -- I'm really not clear. I -- I 13 think I did have meetings with them. They came down to 14 the community and they were always asking questions and 15 I couldn't answer the kind of questions they asked me. 16 Q: When you say they're "asking 17 questions," what kind of questions? 18 A: Like what's going on inside there? 19 Is there, you know, is there this going on in there? Do 20 they have weapons, do they have this or that? And I've 21 always told them directly what I heard. People tell me 22 they've seen them. I've never seen them personally, so 23 I said I don't know whether they're there or not. 24 Q: And during this period, prior to 25 September 4th, 1995, did you have any contact with the
861 federal member of parliament for this area? I believe 2 it's Ms. Ur. 3 A: I don't know. I -- I communicate 4 regularly with the member of parliament, I know that. 5 Q: But do you recall any communication 6 from her office during this period of time, prior to 7 September 4th? 8 A: I think, you know, I may have had a 9 discussion because there was concern, I guess, that I 10 had that, you know, the impact this was having on -- on 11 the relations with -- with other people. The business 12 people in the community were quite concerned that they 13 were losing business at the time and they wanted 14 something done about -- about what was happening 15 generally in the area. 16 They felt that we should be taking a more 17 pro-active role in trying to deal with these things 18 instead of just basically not communicating with the 19 folks there. And they said that, you know, something 20 had to be done. They were impacting the businesses. 21 Q: And these were businesses of -- 22 owned by both First Nation people and non First Nation 23 people? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And we talked a little bit yesterday
871 about tourism and the importance of tourism. And people 2 felt that it was impacting on businesses related to 3 tourism? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall, prior to September 6 4th, 1995, have any -- having any discussions with Mr. 7 Marcel Beaubien, who had just recently been elected the 8 member of provincial parliament for this area? 9 A: Well, Mr. Beaubien is another one 10 who was always calling me and asking me what was going 11 on. And, you know, I -- I told Mr. Beaubien, look I 12 don't know what's going on in terms of actually who's 13 doing what and he kept asking me the same kind of 14 information the OPP were. 15 Q: And now was this before September 16 4th or can you tell -- 17 A: I think it was before. He -- he 18 called me directly at one (1) point and asked me to go 19 to his office. 20 Q: Did you do that? 21 A: Yeah I went to -- to his office and 22 I -- I had a discussion with him and -- I mean he had 23 pretty much made up his mind already what he wanted to 24 do. And I was there I guess just to be called in for 25 whatever purpose he -- he felt he needed to discuss with
881 me. 2 But I -- I always told him, look I'm not 3 in direct communications. I'm not directing what is 4 going on there. I'm not involved what's going on down 5 there. And the Council has publicly stated on numerous 6 occasions, we don't support what's going on down there. 7 Q: And when you say down there, you're 8 referring to the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: This is before the Park? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And where was Mr. Beaubien's office? 13 Was it -- 14 A: It was on Highway 21 as you go into 15 Petrolia. There's -- I don't know what kind of building 16 it is but there's -- it's on the right hand side anyway. 17 Q: But it's near Petrolia? 18 A: Yeah, it's near the intersection 19 there about maybe a thousand (1000) feet down the road 20 on the right hand side as you're going south. 21 Q: Then if I could take you to -- 22 excuse me, Commissioner, Tab 35 of the black book in 23 front of you. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
891 Q: It's Inquiry Document 1009637 and 2 it's an article from the London Free Press dated August 3 28th, 1995. Perhaps we could mark this as the next 4 exhibit. It would be -- 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-248, your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-248. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-248: Document Number 1009637 Aug. 9 28/95 London Free Press 10 Article "Heightened OPP 11 Presence Unsettles Campers" 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And there's a reference to the Park. 15 There's a reference in the second paragraph at the 16 bottom, second column, excuse me, the last paragraph: 17 "Meanwhile Kettle and Stoney Point 18 Band Chief, Tom Bressette, said, 19 'Despite talk, a takeover by breakaway 20 Stoney Pointers when the Park closes 21 after Labour Day weekend isn't 22 likely.' 23 The Park is said to be built on native 24 burial grounds, Bressette said. As 25 for an environmental assessment of the
901 Camp, the final stumbling block to 2 reclaiming the lands, said Bressette, 3 negotiations are at a standstill. The 4 Band wants money to hire its own 5 expert." 6 And do you recall discussing this issue 7 with a reporter for the London Free Press in the latter 8 part of August of 1995? Do these words sound -- appear 9 familiar to you? 10 Did you have a belief that the Camp -- 11 the Park might be -- there was rumours that the Park 12 might be taken over and you didn't think it was likely? 13 A: At that time I didn't think that 14 would -- would occur. 15 Q: And you refer at that time to -- 16 it's -- you're quoted or the reporter indicates that you 17 may have said that the Park is said to be built on 18 native burial grounds. 19 Is that something you had heard on or 20 before August 28th, 1995, that people were saying that? 21 A: Well, I -- you know, people 22 generally will always call the Chief and tell him 23 things. And -- and that's pretty much what I had heard 24 from -- from members, that the people were going to take 25 the Park over.
911 And I think, you know, that there was 2 some -- some discussion on that, and I'm not sure 3 whether it was with some of the councillors as well. 4 But I know at one (1) point in time one 5 (1) of our councillors advised me that someone handed 6 the keys over to the Park to the -- to the people who 7 were down there and they took it that they gave them 8 control of the Park when they gave them the keys. 9 I don't know what that was all about. I 10 -- I can only go by with what I was told. I have no 11 personal knowledge of that. I was never actually 12 present to witness that or never seen any of this. 13 So a lot of things that are referred to, 14 I guess, in here around that time, I wasn't involved 15 directly and like I had previously told everyone else, I 16 don't know what goes on down there. Nobody's telling 17 me, I hear things and all I can do is relate what I 18 hear. 19 Q: Okay. And we'll get to the keys, 20 because I think that happened after -- on September 4th 21 or shortly thereafter. 22 But prior to September 4th, do you recall 23 -- you've said that you've had discussions with Mr. Dale 24 Linton of the OPP and can you recall if you told Mr. 25 Linton that there was a rumour that the people may
921 occupy the Park? 2 A: Oh they were the ones with the -- 3 doing the, I guess, collecting and asking me things and 4 like I told them, like I told everybody else, it's -- 5 it's always been the same thing. I don't know what goes 6 on down there and I did hear that that rumour was going 7 around about the burial ground. 8 I went to the former Chief, Charlie 9 Shawkence, my father-in-law and I asked him about that. 10 I said, Is there a burial ground there and his response 11 to me was, he said, I don't think, you know, our people 12 would bury people -- their people in sand -- is 13 basically what he had stated to me at the time and he 14 said, I don't think there's a burial ground down there. 15 Q: And I believe that may have been 16 after the occupation of the Park on September 4th? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: But prior to that, Mr. Linton is 19 reported to have stated in a statement that's at Tab 59 20 of the black book, page 21, Inquiry Document 1000352, 21 that you had told him and he says -- it's page 21 on the 22 upper right-hand corner, Chief Bressette, it's 1088 and 23 that he says: 24 "The Stoney Point natives had been 25 making that quite clear for some
931 time." 2 He's asked a question by Mr. Goodall: 3 "And was there a strong belief that 4 the Park would be occupied? 5 Linton: Yes, the natives -- the 6 Stoney Point natives -- have been 7 making that quite clear for some time 8 and it also came to us through Chief 9 Tom Bressette of Kettle and Stoney 10 Point that the breakaway Stoney Point 11 people did, in fact, intend to take 12 over the Provincial Park after they 13 had taken over the CFB Ipperwash on 14 the 29th of July and, in fact, we even 15 had information it would probably be 16 soon after Labour Day and that's what 17 led to the development of a 18 contingency plan prior to that." 19 And does that help your rec -- your 20 recollection? I think you've said that you had many 21 discussions with the OPP and -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- you -- Mr. Linton thought at the 24 time that you had given him this information and is he 25 correct?
941 A: Well, when you tell somebody that 2 you heard from people through telephone calls that 3 something like this was going to happen, I take it his 4 interpretation could have been, Oh, he told me that 5 specifically and -- 6 Q: No, I don't think he's -- I don't 7 think that that's the suggestion. 8 A: Well, -- 9 Q: It's just that they got the 10 information that -- 11 A: Well, that's -- I think the way he 12 got this information was through that process and that's 13 all he asked me, Do you know anything about this? 14 Q: Sure. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, I 16 just wanted to point out, Mr. Millar suggested that this 17 is what Mr. Linton -- I forget his rank -- thought at 18 the time. Actually, this is dated September the 12th, 19 so there's a lot of water under the bridge between the 20 information and -- and the actual date of the statement. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 the date of this is September 12th, '95? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The date of the 24 statement's September 12th, yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
951 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1995. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And at the time, I 4 was referring to 1995 as opposed to 2005, but -- taking 5 us back there, but I recognize that the statement itself 6 was taken on September 12th, 1995. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: '95. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: The -- now, how did you learn that - 11 - Chief Bressette -- of the takeover of the Park? 12 A: I -- I believe I seen a picture of 13 it on the -- on the news. I seen people inside the -- 14 the Park on the news. 15 Q: And when did you learn, 16 specifically, about the burial ground issue such that 17 you went to speak to your father-in-law about that 18 issue? 19 A: Well, it was because there were 20 issues being raised around it. I didn't do any research 21 into that particular piece of property and I know he 22 done a tremendous amount of reading and research on his 23 own and I thought that he would have had the answer. 24 Q: And so you spoke to him on -- do you 25 recall September 4th, September 5th?
961 A: I think it was probably around the 2 time that the Park was taken over. That was when I was 3 getting all kinds of calls from Mr. Beaubien wanting to 4 know the status of the Park as well as the OPP and -- 5 and that's where those -- that's when I did approach him 6 on that. 7 Q: Okay. And you received a call on 8 September the 5th from Mr. John Carson -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- do you recall that? And we've 11 got, Commissioner, on tape and we have a transcript of 12 the calls and I will make the transcript a -- an exhibit 13 as well as the CD-Rom after we've finished with all of 14 the calls, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 16 fine. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And do you -- the call that was 20 received from John Carson, I understand was early in the 21 morning on September 5th? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Do you recall it was at least some
971 time on September 5th? 2 A: I -- I guess you're asking me to, 3 you know, pinpoint exact days and times. I have a 4 difficulty with that. 5 Q: That's fair enough. Commissioner, 6 the -- this -- this particular telephone call was -- was 7 taped as one (1) of the calls that was taped by the -- 8 at the mobile command unit and it was, if I have my 9 times correct, approximately at 8:10 a.m. on the morning 10 of September 5th, 1995. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me for a 15 minute, Commissioner. 16 17 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And you recognized your voice on 21 that tape -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- Chief Bressette? 24 A: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now listening to it,
981 Commissioner, it's not a perfect transcription. There's 2 a few minor changes and what I -- perhaps we could just 3 reserve a number, the next exhibit would be Exhibit 2 -- 4 THE REGISTRAR 249 would be the next 5 one. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 249 and that would 7 be for the transcript and 250 would be for the tape of 8 the calls. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-249: Transcript- Telephone calls 11 between Chief Tom Bressette 12 and OPP. Sept. 05 - Sept. 13 07/95 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-250: Ipperwash Inquiry telephone 16 calls Re: OPP and Chief Tom 17 Bressette Sept. 05 - Sept. 18 O7/95 on CD-ROM. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 21 Q: Now, Chief Bressette, do you recall 22 having a conversation on September 5th with Inspector 23 Dale Linton? 24 A: I -- how you say a conversation 25 about what? I, you know, can you clear that up?
991 Q: I appreciate that. I'm going to 2 refer you to the -- and I don't think I have it in front 3 of you. But there's in the logger tape and let me just 4 read it to you. 5 "This is September 5th, 1995. At 6 17:08 hours Inspector Linton advised 7 Inspector Carson that he had had -- 8 talked to Tom Bressette earlier in the 9 day and that he has a concern about 10 the cottages at the end of Outer 11 Drive. 12 Also he feels that Pinery Park may be 13 next. Tom Bressette called and gave 14 his support. Rumours Natives may try 15 to take cottages east of Army Camp." 16 And even though it says Inspector Linton 17 advised Inspector Carson, it may be that Inspector -- 18 it's vice versa because Inspector Linton was not on 19 duty. 20 But do you recall any discussions with 21 either Mr. Carson or Mr. Linton on September 5th about 22 cottages at the end of Outer Drive, Pinery Park or the 23 cottages west of Army Camp Road? It's east of Army 24 Camp, excuse me. It's the same cottages by Outer Drive. 25 A: That -- that's up in that corner --
1001 Q: Corner, yes. 2 A: -- you pointed on the map that the 3 cottages that are -- look like they're over on the 4 boundary line. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Well, there was some concern raised 7 by the folks from down in that area, that they had heard 8 noises around their -- their home and were wondering if 9 they were going to be next. I basically just alerted 10 that I had heard concern about that. Like I stated to 11 John Carson, if I heard anything, I would let him know 12 and that's basically what I did. I just said, you know, 13 I -- I've heard complaints about this. 14 I've gotten calls in the office in 15 regards to this, and that's basically how that 16 discussion came about. 17 Q: And that was with Mr. Carson? 18 A: Yes. He was always coming down 19 there and he seemed to know the answers to things before 20 I even told him, so I assumed and I felt it very 21 strongly that they must have had somebody right inside 22 the property that was telling them things, not just me. 23 Q: And do you recall on September the 24 5th, having a discussion about this -- the cottages at 25 the east end of the Park of the Army Camp near Outer
1011 Driver, with Mr. Carson. 2 Do you recall if there -- if that was on 3 the telephone or in person? 4 A: I can't recall that. It may have 5 been on the phone or in person, I don't know. Like he 6 came down to the office quite a bit and he'd stop by and 7 -- and he would say a couple of things, ask a couple of 8 questions, and then he would leave. 9 Q: This -- and this happened during 10 September 4th, 5th and 6th? 11 A: Oh, quite regularly in that time 12 frame. He'd called or he asked me to give him a call or 13 I had notes passed to me that, you know, that they 14 wanted me to get in touch with him. 15 Q: But what I'm now trying to focus on, 16 and I know it's difficult, but on the days of September 17 4th after the -- the occupation of the Park on September 18 5th and September 6th. 19 Did he come and visit you at the Band 20 office after the occupation of the Park and prior to the 21 death of Mr. Dudley George? 22 A: I believe he did. 23 Q: And the -- on September 5th, other 24 than as you've told us, you responded to telephone 25 calls, was there anything else you did with respect to
1021 the occupation of the Park? 2 A: No, I -- I never bothered with going 3 down there. I -- every time I went near there I was 4 told I was not wanted. So I just stayed away from 5 there. 6 Q: And on September 6th, did -- before 7 I get to September 6th, on September 5th, if I could 8 take you to Exhibit 219, Tab 29. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And there's a -- was a Band Council 13 meeting on the evening of September 5th and we only have 14 parts of the minutes but there's a -- a reference on 15 Page 2 to: 16 "General Band meeting, Bob Watts study, 17 Ipperwash beach claim." 18 That refers to a meeting to be held later 19 in September with respect to the west Ipperwash matter 20 over by Kettle Point? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: That doesn't deal with the Ipperwash 23 Provincial Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And Bob Watts was -- who was Bob
1031 Watts? 2 A: Bob Watts was a consultant who -- 3 who was, I guess, hired to do some work on updating our 4 personnel policies and looking at all the policies that 5 we had, human resource policies and whatnot. 6 Q: Okay. And I note that this -- that 7 at least the minute that we have doesn't have anything 8 in with respect to the occupation of the Park on -- that 9 had took place on September the 4th. 10 And was that on the Council agenda that 11 evening? I take it it wasn't, because there's no 12 reference to it. 13 A: No, our agenda was already set and 14 it was set like before -- like, we don't put things on 15 our agenda unless they're requested by one (1) of the 16 members of Council have put them on. They're set up in 17 such a way that we receive information and councilors 18 have the opportunity to read it before we get to the 19 actual meeting so that they can make themselves aware of 20 the matters we're dealing with. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner. 25
1041 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I might, there's a document, 4 Chief Bressette, before I leave September 5th. It's at 5 Tab 24 and it's a statement prepared by Mr. -- Inspector 6 Dale Linton of the OPP on -- it's Inquiry Document 7 2000540 and I don't have the date that it was prepared 8 on, but it clearly was after September 6th and on the 9 issue of the telephone call that I referred you to 10 earlier, the information that Mr. Linton and Mr. Carson. 11 Mr. Linton says, if you look at page -- 12 the third page in on the back of the page -- he's 13 referring to a discussion he had with Inspector Carson 14 at 4:30 p.m. and it's the bottom of the page. For the 15 benefit of My Friends, it's 0010657, but it's a -- this 16 is a double-sided document and it's the third page in: 17 "During our discussion I advised 18 Inspector Carson that I had a 19 conversation with Chief Tom Bressette 20 earlier in the day and he was 21 expressing concern that the cottages 22 at the end of Outer Drive and Pinery 23 Provincial Park would also be taken 24 over by the Stoney Point people." 25 So, Mr. Linton at that time, indicated
1051 that he had had the call with you as opposed to you 2 having the call with Mr. Carson. 3 In fact, you were talking to both Carson 4 and Linton during this period of time, Chief Bressette? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Now, on September the 6th... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Was there a representative of the 11 Federal Government, the Department of Indian and 12 Northern Affairs, a Mr. Ron French -- do you know Mr. 13 Ron French? 14 A: Yes, I know Ron French. 15 Q: And, putting yourself back in 16 September of 1995, what was your knowledge of Mr. 17 French, who he was and what he did? 18 A: I believe Mr. French was an advisor 19 to the Minister of Indian Affairs, Ron Irwin, and he was 20 down in the area and I guess he was just there to report 21 to Mr. Irwin what was happening in regards to the 22 occupation. 23 Q: And did he meet with you on 24 September 5th or September 6th, do you recall? 25 A: I -- I think he did come into the --
1061 to our office and meet with us, yes. 2 Q: And was it simply -- can you tell -- 3 do you recall anything about the meeting, what it was 4 about, other than he was there to report back to the 5 Minister. 6 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. I -- I think 7 he was going to make some kind of attempt to go and have 8 discussions with the folks inside during the occupation. 9 That's what I understand. That's what he said he was 10 there for. He just came to let us know what he was 11 going to do. 12 Q: And was that on September 5th or 13 September 6th, or can you recall, sir? 14 A: It may have been on the 6th. 15 Q: And was this before or after the 16 call that you had received from Mr. Bob Watts? I 17 anticipate -- 18 A: I -- I think it was after. 19 Q: And did you express the -- did you 20 advise Mr. French, do you recall, of the concerns that 21 you had as a result of Mr. Watts' conversation -- 22 telephone conversation? 23 A: I -- I don't think I did discuss 24 this matter with Ron French. If I did, I -- I can't 25 recall right now. But I -- I know that after I got the
1071 call from Bob Watts, I called the local radio station, 2 the lady's always on there saying if you have any news 3 call in. Lee Michaels is her name. And I called her 4 and told her what I had heard and she said well what 5 would you do or what would you like to say to people. 6 And I -- I said I would suggest that 7 people start to negotiate or find a way to move out of 8 the Park. Because, you know, there may be trouble with 9 the police officers or something of that nature. 10 Q: And perhaps we could step back in 11 time then. You received a call on September 6th from 12 Bob Watts? 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: And I anticipate Mr. Watts will say 15 that it was around eleven o'clock. Does that accord 16 with your recollection? 17 A: I -- I don't know. All I know is he 18 was on his cell phone when he called me. 19 Q: And Mr. Watts -- is it the same Mr. 20 Watts who was a consultant to the Band that we saw his 21 name in the minutes of September 5th? 22 A: At the time he was a consultant to 23 the Band but he was later hired by the Ontario Ministry 24 of Native Affairs. 25 Q: I think you'll find that he was --
1081 he was -- he had been -- he had worked for the Ministry 2 prior to September 1995. In fact prior -- I think he 3 finished with them in 1994. 4 But at any rate, can you tell us what Mr. 5 Watts said to you on the telephone to the best of your 6 recollection? 7 A: Well, Mr. Watts told me that he had 8 heard from an individual who was in a meeting with the 9 Premier and several other people, Ministers and 10 basically what he had heard him say was -- I don't want 11 to swear here, so I don't know how you want me to 12 address the language or what he used. 13 He says -- he said he was Mr. Harris 14 basically stated to someone get those 'F'ing Indians out 15 of the Park even if we got to draw guns to do it. 16 Q: And those were the words that Mr. 17 Watts -- 18 A: Quoted as -- 19 Q: -- and -- 20 A: -- like you say in quotation marks, 21 that's what he stated that this individual told him what 22 the Premier had -- I'm not sure if it was an OPP or 23 Solicitor General, who he was talking to. I -- I -- he 24 never went into detail to say who this individual was. 25 I -- I told Mr. Watts because he was
1091 working with the government. I -- I wouldn't disclose 2 his name and I hadn't disclosed his name. I spoke with 3 Mr. Watts I guess a couple of months ago and I -- I told 4 him this matter was coming up and what should I do. 5 And he said, well, go ahead and tell them 6 who I am. I don't -- 7 Q: And you did -- you did tell us 8 though. You did pass that on and we then had been in 9 touch with Mr. Watts and he will be a witness. The -- 10 on the mor -- on the day on September 5th when you 11 received the call, Mr. Watts did not tell you who had 12 given -- had called him or spoken to him. 13 A: No. And I -- I tried to get that 14 information from him and he said that he had given his 15 word to this individual that he wouldn't disclose his 16 name, much as I did about Mr. Watts but, you know, I -- 17 I -- I feel -- I -- I'm going to be challenged about 18 who's this fictitious person. 19 So -- and I relayed that on to Mr. Watts 20 that, you know, there was growing concern about whether 21 this was, in fact, truth or some fictitious statement 22 and so I -- I -- he told me, Go ahead and tell him my 23 name. 24 Q: No, no and I appreciate that you did 25 tell us Mr. Watts' name and we did speak to Mr. Watts
1101 and Mr. Watts will, I anticipate, advise the Commission 2 that, yes, he did make the call to you and that he did 3 tell you basically what you've repeated today. 4 So, I anticipate that and -- and -- but 5 after the call, you told me briefly, a moment ago, that 6 you then spoke to -- called Lee Michaels (phonetic) at 7 the radio station in Sarnia? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- 10 A: She actually broadcast what I stated 11 on -- on the show. 12 Q: So -- so -- 13 A: She turned it into a -- Let me turn 14 the tape on and asked me what I would say and -- and I 15 later heard that on the radio. And the reason I chose 16 to do that was, I felt that if I went down there and 17 tried to relay that information, I'd be met with the 18 same type of response, Get out of here, You're not 19 welcome here, you know, We don't want to hear anything 20 from you. So, that was the best way to relay 21 information was through the public media. 22 Q: And so you told her that, as you 23 said, that you were concerned that the Government might 24 take some action, that you thought it was best for them 25 to negotiate or talk to someone about getting out and --
1111 because you were concerned about what was going to 2 happen, is that -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that was -- you heard that on 5 the radio broadcast by Ms. Michaels on the -- 6 A: Yes. She -- she taped it and then I 7 heard it on the radio later that evening. 8 Q: Was it later that evening? 9 A: It was right after I spoke to her, 10 the next -- like, they do news updates. You can tune 11 into the station, they basically just break in and say, 12 Here's a news story or when -- when they have their 13 news, it's at a certain time. 14 Q: And did -- on the afternoon of 15 September 6th, 1995, did you do anything after the call 16 from -- that you had with Mr. Watts and the call to Ms. 17 Michaels? 18 Did you do anything else with respect to 19 the occupation of the Park in the afternoon, that you 20 can recall? 21 A: Not that I'm aware of. I think I 22 advised some people in the office and some members of 23 Council what I'd heard. 24 Q: And did you ask Band Councillor Mr. 25 Gerald George to go to the Park on that evening, on the
1121 evening of September 6th? 2 A: No, I didn't. I -- I know he went 3 down there on his own and then he came and stopped at my 4 home, I know that. And later on that -- that same 5 evening, he came back and he was -- he was pretty 6 excited and he stated that him and Bernard were coming - 7 - were going to Forest -- on their way to Forest and 8 they met a large amount of OPP vehicles racing down the 9 highway and he assumed that that's where they were 10 going, so they turned around. 11 They came back to the community and I 12 believe what happened as a result of that, Bernard did 13 go down to the Park and tried to see what was going on 14 with the police being there and Gerald came and he 15 stopped by my house and he told me Bernard went into the 16 Park. 17 Q: Okay. So, you -- I'm going to break 18 this down, just back you up for a moment, Chief 19 Bressette. You said that Gerald came by your house one 20 (1) time and earlier in the evening and did he tell you 21 at that point that he had been down by the Park the 22 first time he came by your house? 23 A: Yes, he did. 24 Q: And did -- what, if anything, did he 25 tell you that happened at the Park?
1131 A: I think he said his sister's car got 2 hit by a rock. 3 Q: And did he tell you anything else? 4 A: He told me Mr. Stuart George and him 5 had an exchange and Stuart swung inside the window and 6 knocked the hat on his head sideways and he said that he 7 left at that point. 8 Q: And did he tell you that -- anything 9 about any discussions that he may have had with the 10 Ontario Provincial Police? 11 A: Well, he said he went and reported 12 the incident, because it was -- he wanted that noted for 13 an insurance claim. 14 Q: And did he tell you anything else 15 about his discussions with the Ontario Provincial 16 Police? 17 A: Oh, he told me they had a big book 18 with a number of pictures in it of people, that's -- 19 that's all he said. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall 21 approximately what time it was that Mr. Gerald George 22 came to your house the first time, on the evening of 23 September 6th? 24 A: I think that was in -- it was 25 daylight, I know that. I don't know exactly what time
1141 it was. 2 Q: And the second time he came to your 3 house? 4 A: It was in -- it was in the evening. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: It was dark outside when he came the 7 second time. 8 Q: And the -- after he came the second 9 time, and he said that Mr. Bernard George -- Cecil 10 Bernard George had gone to the Park, what, if anything, 11 did you do? 12 A: Well, I think what he said is, I 13 think the OPP are going to do something bad. At that 14 point, what happened was we -- we said -- he went down 15 there, he went inside and I think he's going to get in 16 trouble. 17 So we -- we got in his vehicle and he 18 drove down towards the Park and we went down towards the 19 beach and there's a windy, sandy trail along there. We 20 went down that road and there's a place called Ipperwash 21 Hotel, it used to be, I don't know what they call it 22 now. 23 But we turned left there and there's 24 another road that cuts down and goes down towards the 25 Ipperwash Park. We got down there to a parking lot and
1151 we were stopped by an OPP officer. 2 Q: Okay. Now, let's just -- perhaps if 3 we can ... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: The -- the road that I think that -- 12 that you're referring to is East Parkway Drive? Was it 13 the -- 14 A: I only know my way around, I don't 15 know what they call the roads, they -- 16 Q: And the parking lot that you're -- 17 you're speaking of is the -- a large parking lot on the 18 south side of the road that you were on? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you know if that is the 21 parking lot that's the Ministry of Natural Resources 22 parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so you went down that road which 25 leads towards the Provincial Park; is that correct?
1161 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you were stopped at a road block 3 on the west side of the Ministry of Natural Resources 4 parking lot? 5 A: Yes, we had lights shone in our face 6 and we were told to stick our hands up so they were in 7 sight and then asked to produce some photo ID and I did 8 that and the officer came and said, What do you want 9 around here and where are you going? 10 And we told him we were -- we were going 11 down towards the -- towards the -- the Park to look for 12 a Band Council member and on -- what happened was on the 13 radio there was some shouting going on. 14 All we could hear was the officers 15 yelling on there code something and all you could hear 16 is gunfire, like somebody was in a firefight and 17 repeated sounds of guns going off and we were told to 18 get out of there. 19 He said, Get out of here, get of here 20 right now and he said, Turn around and get out of here. 21 So we left. We went back down the road and what we done 22 then, at that point, we -- we went back and I think I 23 went down onto the beach. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: And we run into Roseanne Bressette
1171 and Deanna Bressette who -- one (1) -- Roseanne was -- 2 is Bernard George's spouse. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And they were sitting on the beach 5 and we -- we -- we were going to try and drive down on 6 the beach and we ran in -- we seen this guy running down 7 the beach and it was -- I think it was Jeremiah George, 8 Bernard's brother, came running down the beach and he 9 said there's cops all along the beach. 10 They were yelling at me to stop and then 11 he told us they were shooting at people inside the Park 12 and there was gunfire going on and -- and he said they 13 were shooting at everybody and he said, I just got out 14 of there. 15 Q: And do you know, can you recall 16 approximately what time of the evening this was? 17 A: I really didn't look at the time or 18 anything. At that point, after we -- he reported that 19 to us, we had a grave concern because we didn't know 20 what had occurred, how many people may have gotten 21 injured. 22 We then drove up and he said, We'll go in 23 the back way, so he went down the road around towards 24 Thedford to Raven's Wood road, across Highway 21 on that 25 road and I don't know if it's a County road or
1181 something. 2 We followed that around and we turned 3 down onto Army Camp Road and we went down and we stopped 4 at the fork in the road, and the reason we stopped, we 5 seen OPP cruisers on the highway and it looked like 6 police officers in the ditch, so we stayed there. 7 And we stopped and we just watched what 8 was going on and we could see the bus coming up with, I 9 don't know if those were police lights or whatever, were 10 red, flashing, chasing the bus and we observed a dump 11 truck parked over at where Cliff's trailer was at that 12 time. 13 And a car came out and it turned east on 14 Highway 21 and the police officers in the -- in the 15 cruisers went in pursuit of that vehicle down Highway 21 16 towards Northville. 17 Q: Okay. Perhaps if we could just 18 throw up a map, and this is Inquiry Document 1001973, 19 Page 5 of 5. 20 And the -- when you went to the beach, 21 the road that you went down, was it the road that led -- 22 leads from Raven's Wood down to the beach? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so it would be from raisin -- 25 Raven's Wood down --
1191 A: That road. 2 Q: -- to the beach -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- Raven's Wood road, or I think 5 it's called Centre Ipperwash Road, that has a number of 6 different names? 7 A: Yes, that's it. 8 Q: And when you came back from the 9 beach, did you drive up Ravenswood Road past Highway 21, 10 which is shown as -- 11 A: Yes, that's where we went. 12 Q: And onto a road -- can you tell us 13 which road that you took? We don't have -- 14 unfortunately on this, we don't have a very good map 15 with very good names, but when you say you went -- 16 A: That road and then we turned down 17 that road where you're on and we stopped right there. 18 Q: And the road -- there's -- on this 19 map, there's a -- 20 A: Fork in the road. 21 Q: -- a fork in the road. The road on 22 the right-hand side of the map or the eastern road leads 23 towards Thedford. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if you go straight on, you hit
1201 Highway 21 -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and Army Camp Road. That's, in 4 effect, an extension of Army Camp Road that you were on? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you stopped by the fork? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you then -- perhaps what I'll do 9 is, we'll mark that map we were looking at as the next 10 exhibit. It would be Exhibit -- 11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, P-251. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 251. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 251. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-251: Document Number 10019173 16 page 05 Map of Bosanquet 17 Township 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And I'm now showing you a -- a map 21 of the Military Reserve and it's been marked Exhibit 40 22 in this Proceeding. And if I could point -- there's 23 Army Camp Road on the west side of the Army Camp, 24 Highway 21 on the south side. The west -- eastern 25 boarder of the Army Camp is now Outer Drive and the --
1211 Army Camp Road runs -- the extension runs south from 2 Highway 21 down, it's -- it's not on this map, but you 3 can see, there's a road that I believe is the -- the 4 fork in the road, the road that lets to Thedford. 5 Do you agree with that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so you were located near the -- 8 the -- 9 A: Right at the fork. 10 Q: -- at the fork? And, so you could 11 see into the built-up area of the Army Camp? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you observed the yellow school 14 bus coming up -- coming up the road inside the parking - 15 - inside the -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And, now, when you said that you saw 18 a dump truck by Clifford George's trailer, can you tell 19 me -- 20 A: It was out -- out on the range, 21 where the ranges are. 22 Q: Yeah, can you -- 23 A: It was around in that area where 24 your dot is. I don't know exactly where, but it's 25 roughly in that area.
1221 Q: So, I'm pointing to the area -- 2 there's a road named, "Magazine" and there's a road that 3 runs south to the road that runs parallel to Highway 21 4 inside the Army Camp, and it was somewhere in that area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you observed a car. Where did 7 the car come from? 8 A: It came from inside the -- the 9 built-up area. 10 Q: And went -- left the built-up area 11 from the main entrance on Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then turned south on Army Camp 14 Road? 15 A: It went left. 16 Q: Left? That would be south. 17 A: Well, it came south, yes and -- 18 Q: And then -- 19 A: -- it got to the corner and it 20 turned left and went towards Northville and the OPP 21 cruisers pursued that car. 22 Q: And can you -- do you recall the 23 colour of the car? 24 A: I'm not sure, I think it was blue. 25 I'm not sure, it was night time, so, you know, I -- I
1231 know the car came pulling out of there. 2 Q: Okay. And you indicated there were 3 OPP cruisers at the intersection of Highway 21 and Army 4 Camp Road? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you observe anything else at 7 that time, Chief Bressette, that you can recall? 8 A: All I know is there was a lot of 9 vehicles going up and down that road and -- 10 Q: And that road is Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Going on the inside of the -- the 14 fence there and we didn't go into there. I -- I told -- 15 at that point I told Gerald, we'd better go back and I 16 said, I -- I better make some phone calls to the 17 Assembly of First Nations. 18 Q: Okay. And before we go back, you 19 said there were a number of cars on the inside. So, you 20 saw a number -- is it -- did you see a number of cars on 21 the road leading from the built-up area north towards 22 the Park on the inside -- the road that runs parallel on 23 the inside? 24 A: Yes, they were on the inside, yes. 25 Q: On the inside of the Army Camp. So
1241 you decided that you would -- 2 A: We would leave the area. 3 Q: -- and so what -- you left, you 4 turned around and went down Army Camp Road again? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And what if anything happened on 7 your way back? 8 A: We got stopped by OPP's. They had 9 guns pointed at us and a bright light on the car and 10 they said to hold your hands in the air and they came 11 walking up pointing guns at our head. And they said, 12 who are you, and I told them who I was. 13 I told Gerald keep your hands up, don't - 14 - don't put your hands down. These guys might shoot us 15 because -- I said keep your hands in full view and don't 16 move. And they walked right up to the side and I know 17 there's this big tall OPP officer named Stan Korosec. 18 And -- and I seen him looking in the 19 window and I heard him saying, Yeah that's him. So they 20 -- he said, what are you doing in here and we told him 21 what we had seen and observed and we were going to see 22 what was going on. But we were leaving the area and he 23 told us to leave. 24 Q: And prior to that checkpoint -- that 25 checkpoint, was it at the intersection -- can you tell
1251 us where it was. Was it at the inter -- 2 A: It was at Highway 21 or that -- that 3 back road there and Army Camp Road. 4 Q: At this point here? 5 A: We were right in there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: When we turned there, they weren't 8 there but when we came back they were all over the 9 place. 10 Q: And prior to this -- this -- being 11 stopped at this roadblock at I think it's called the 12 extension of Ravenswood Road. We'll have to get a 13 number for it at the -- at the break. 14 But the -- did you -- had you observed 15 red dots on your body at some point prior to this? 16 A: All over my face -- 17 Q: And when did that -- 18 A: -- right there. 19 Q: -- when did that happen, sir? 20 A: When we -- as soon as we -- we 21 pulled up there you could see that thing you're pointing 22 all over our face. 23 Q: That was at the road block? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you -- can you recall what
1261 kind of weapons the -- the Ontario Provincial Police 2 had? 3 A: I -- I was not too keenly worried 4 about the weapons. I was worried about them shooting me 5 at the time. 6 Q: Okay. And after you left the -- the 7 roadblock -- but before we leave there, why do you think 8 it was Mr. Stan Korosec who was the officer that was at 9 the roadblock. 10 A: Because I seen him around the OPP 11 Detachment in Forest. He was stationed here and -- and 12 he -- he's a big tall guy. He's an easy guy to 13 remember. I'm pretty sure that's who it was. 14 Q: Because he may have been, I think, 15 in the command centre. I'm not certain he was on a 16 roadblock, but I stand to be corrected. But you thought 17 it was Mr. Korosec? 18 A: That's who I -- that's who I assumed 19 it was. Somebody knew who I was because they -- they 20 were brought up to look inside the vehicle. 21 Q: So somebody recognized you, whoever 22 it was. And what kind of -- do you recall what kind of 23 uniforms these police officers had on? 24 A: They looked like mercenaries to me, 25 they were --
1271 Q: What do you mean by that? 2 A: They were paramilitary dress. 3 Q: And can you -- when you say 4 paramilitary dress -- 5 A: All in drab, you know, the bonie 6 (phonetic) hats and flack jackets and, I mean, looked 7 like they were going to war. To me they didn't look 8 like cops. 9 Q: And after you left the roadblock, 10 how did you get back to Kettle Point? 11 A: We drove back the same way that we 12 came -- we went and we -- we -- I don't think we -- we 13 did go down to the mall and there was a large contingent 14 of our people collecting around the -- the plaza right 15 at the corner of Highway 21 and at the corner of Kettle 16 Point. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: They were all at the mall at that 19 point. 20 Q: And the -- when you drove back to 21 Kettle Point, did you go along -- north on Ravenswood 22 Road and turn left on Highway 21? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did you observe a -- a 25 checkpoint -- an OPP checkpoint at the intersection of
1281 Highway 21 and at Ravenswood? 2 A: Yeah, they had the highway blocked 3 off going east. 4 Q: But did they stop you? 5 A: I -- I think they did, I -- I'm 6 pretty sure they were shining lights on us, anyway. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But they obviously knew where we 9 were coming from, those other fellows down the road told 10 them we were coming that way. 11 Q: And the officers at the check -- the 12 second checkpoint at Raven's Wood, did they have weapons 13 as well? 14 A: I think every -- every police 15 officer I seen that night had weapons. I -- I remember 16 going into the Forest Detachment and -- and a guy was 17 pointing a shotgun at me when I -- when I -- I got 18 there -- 19 Q: Okay -- 20 A: -- held a shotgun on me until he 21 walked up and I showed him some identification. 22 Q: So when you got back to the Plaza 23 and the Plaza on this map which is Exhibit -- 24 THE REGISTRAR: 251. 25
1291 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: -- 251, is actually in that area 3 where the "60" is on the map; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And -- and so when you got back to 6 the Plaza, what did you do? 7 A: We got there and what happened, 8 people were starting to gather up there, because they 9 knew something was gone wrong. I -- I believe at that 10 point we called the Forest Detachment. I'm not sure of 11 the sequence, it was quite a while back. 12 But I do know that before all of this 13 went on, as soon as Gerald reported to me about this 14 incident, I did call Mr. Mercredi and advised him that I 15 felt something terrible was going to happen and he 16 should be calling the OPP and advising them that we had 17 severe concerns about what was happening there. 18 He said, Okay, and then he was going to 19 call the regional chiefs up in the -- in Ontario to get 20 them on a telephone conversation. That's when Gerald 21 and I left and by the time we got back down to the mall 22 there was a large group of people there who started to, 23 I guess, express their anger about what -- what went on. 24 I had to go into -- to find out what 25 happened, so I went to the OPP station.
1301 Q: Now, I think perhaps in fairness and 2 the -- the -- that when you got back to the Plaza, did 3 you call Mr. Mercredi again? 4 A: I believe we did have another 5 conversation and I -- I told him what I -- what was 6 happening in the area. 7 Q: Okay, and when the first 8 conversation you had with Mr. Mercredi was before you 9 and Gerald went down to the Plaza? 10 A: Yeah, that's when Gerald told me 11 Bernard went down there and I told him one (1) of my 12 councillors went down there and they told me there was a 13 brunch of OPP racing towards that site and I said 14 somebody has to make an intervention here. I believe 15 there's something terrible going to happen. 16 Q: And would it be fair to say that if 17 the events that took place at the Park -- took place at 18 approximately eleven o'clock, that this was shortly 19 before that? 20 A: It was probably around that time 21 when Gerald came to the house and then we decided to go 22 down there after -- 23 Q: Before eleven o'clock? 24 A: -- after I'd made that call. 25 Q: And do you recall, and I'm going to
1311 play a tape for you, Chief Bressette, that you called 2 the Forest Detachment at approximately thirty-eight (38) 3 minutes after 12:00 on the morning of September 7th and 4 I'll play -- 5 A: And that's when we were in the -- in 6 the -- at the mall, I believe in a restaurant there. 7 Q: Okay. And... 8 9 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 10 11 Q: And there's -- in the transcript, 12 the transcription made by our office on Page 6, there's 13 an error in the transcription of Chief Bressette's 14 telephone number, 5-9 and 9-5 were transposed. 15 The -- when you made this call which we 16 understand from the -- if we've done it correctly, from 17 the London Communications Centre logger tape, that it 18 was at approximately twenty (20) to one (1) on the 19 morning of September 7th that you knew at this time that 20 Mr. Dudley George had been killed. 21 And can you tell us how you became aware 22 that Mr. Dudley George had died? 23 A: Well, Sam came and told us. 24 Q: And told you at your house or at 25 the --
1321 A: At the plaza. 2 Q: At the plaza. And it was -- and the 3 -- and that was shortly before you made the call to get 4 a hold of Mr. Carson? 5 A: I -- I'm not sure whether it was 6 before. I -- I don't know where I made that call before 7 or after. 8 Q: Well, you indicated in your call to 9 the OPP that you knew that Mr. -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- Anthony George had died so you - 12 - you had to know it before then. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And then, Chief Bressette, at page 8 15 we're going to call -- John Carson called you back 16 actually at -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- the call to Mr. -- the London 19 Communication Centre is logged in at thirty-eight (38) 20 minutes to one (1). And the call came from Mr. Tom -- 21 from Mr. Carson two minutes later at approximately 22 twenty (20) minutes to one (1) and this call was taped 23 on the mobile command unit. 24 A: Yeah. 25
1331 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: And why were you concerned about Mr. 4 Kaczanowski? 5 A: Well, I was concerned that they 6 would give the appearance that we somehow endorsed our 7 police going up and participating in what had happened. 8 And they just pulled him out of the blue. We had four 9 (4) officers from our community and OPP. 10 And I didn't know why they weren't 11 utilized because they know who the people are. They -- 12 they probably would have handled this situation a lot 13 differently than the way the -- whoever was brought in 14 did, I mean, they took a life there. 15 And I don't think that was necessary. I 16 don't think all this shooting was necessary. There were 17 women and children down in that area. 18 Q: And your concern at the time when 19 you made this call to Mr. Carson, was that Mr. 20 Kaczanowski who was a member of the Kettle and Stoney 21 Point police service, did not want him on the road to be 22 associated with what was -- what had happened. 23 A: Well, you know, the feeling was, 24 they went down, they did something bad and then they 25 shove our people out in front on the road to be facing
1341 vehicles and people as if they participated in this when 2 they had no knowledge nor were they even involved with 3 it. 4 Q: And other than the -- on the evening 5 of September 6th, did you have any knowledge that -- 6 other than what was told you by Gerald about the cars, 7 that the Ontario Provincial Police were going to do 8 something? Had you received any phone calls? 9 A: No. It's pretty clear, you know, I 10 -- they wouldn't even tell our police anything what they 11 were doing at the community; why would they tell me? I 12 mean, I'm a civilian, I'm not a police officer and it 13 was very clear when our police officers were caught off 14 guard that this was something that was hatched inside 15 the ranks of the OPP, not -- it had nothing to do -- I 16 don't think our people were trusted. 17 I still don't feel we're trusted in many 18 ways today when -- when these kind of things happen. 19 The things were kept in the dark until they happened and 20 then we got to deal with the aftermath. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, 22 Commissioner, that would be a good time to break for 23 lunch and we'll start again after lunch. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. We'll break now for lunch.
1351 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 2 adjourned until 1:45. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 12:30 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 1:47 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Before we go on, Chief Bressette, I 12 just wanted to clear up one thing from your testimony 13 this morning. 14 And the -- when Bob Watts called you on 15 September the 6th, he did not tell you who the person 16 was who spoke to him; is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And he did not say which department 19 of the government or whether the person was in the 20 government when he called you -- or just which 21 department? 22 A: He said there was a meeting, some 23 kind of a Cabinet meeting and one (1) of the people were 24 very disturbed by what he had heard, and they were the 25 ones that called him. He didn't tell me whether it was
1361 a government person, whether it was an aide, whether it 2 was -- who it was, but he did say someone advised him. 3 Q: And did -- I anticipate he will say 4 that it was a blockade meeting; do you -- 5 A: I -- I couldn't tell you. I mean, 6 Bob wasn't clear on that. He just wanted to relay that 7 information. And I guess if anybody has any concerns, 8 if Mr. Watts is coming, they can take it up with him 9 when he gets here. 10 Q: And Mr. Watts will be here and he'll 11 -- he'll explain what happened. 12 Now, as a result of the conversation that 13 we were dealing with just before the lunch break, the 14 conversation at twenty (20) to 1:00 on the morning of 15 September 7th between yourself and Mr. Carson, was Mr. 16 Kaczanowski pulled off the road? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then, after that conversation, 19 did -- what did you do next? This is about twenty (20) 20 to 1:00. We know that sometime later you went to visit 21 the Forest Detachment, and I -- I believe that was 22 around 1:30. 23 Do you recall when you went to the Forest 24 Detachment? 25 A: I don't know. I wasn't watching the
1371 time or writing time down. I was merely trying to 2 operate in the conditions that existed then. 3 Q: Well, perhaps -- you did go and 4 visit -- 5 A: Yes, I did. I went -- 6 Q: -- the Forest Detachment? 7 A: -- I went to the detachment and, 8 like I said, I was stopped and the guy had a shotgun 9 pointed at me. And I had a cell phone, I think he 10 almost shot me because he seen the cell phone -- 11 Q: And -- 12 A: -- and he said, Don't move a muscle. 13 And I told him, All this is is a cell phone. And I -- I 14 slowly put it on the roof of the car and held my hands 15 in the air. 16 Q: And when you left Kettle Point to go 17 to the Forest Detachment were you at the -- did you 18 leave from the mall and go down -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you travel down Highway 21? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And in 1995 was there a traffic 23 light at the intersection of what is Highway 21 and 24 Townsend Road? 25 A: Yes.
1381 Q: And where -- did you turn left on 2 Townsend Road to go south towards the detachment? 3 A: I was going to. 4 Q: And where was the -- where was the 5 checkpoint that you were stopped at? 6 A: It was right across the road. There 7 was a turn going off to the right and when I turned left 8 I was told to stop. I -- I stopped, got out of the car 9 and that's when the shotgun was pointed at me. It was 10 all the while I was told to stop and get out of the 11 vehicle. 12 Q: And that was immediately after you 13 turned at the intersection -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- onto Townsend Road? And then we 16 have two (2) clips that I'm going to play just briefly 17 and it's simply -- the first clip establishes -- it's a 18 clip from the Communication Centre in London again. 19 It's at page 9 and it, to the best as I -- we can tell, 20 is at 1:22 in the morning on September 7th. There's a 21 second clip. 22 Did you go to the Forest -- do you recall 23 going to the Forest Detachment more than once during the 24 morning of September 7th? Did you go back again? 25 A: I don't think so. I -- I went --
1391 when I went there I was told to stay there and not move. 2 And I --I believe Ron -- Ron was at the -- Ron's vehicle 3 was at the -- Ron George's vehicle was at the OPP and he 4 came out and left. And then I was told, Well, you go up 5 there and you keep your hands in full sight -- in full 6 slight and you drive slow. 7 Q: And, but the question was, you went 8 the first time -- and I'll come back to that, but did 9 you go a second time the morning of September 7th? 10 A: I don't -- I don't believe I did. I 11 --I -- I really can't say. I know I went there and I -- 12 I -- earlier on I mentioned I was going there, but John 13 Carson did call back. I spoke to him and after that I 14 -- I was at the plaza. 15 I don't think I went up to there because 16 that was when I seen what I seen and there were, I don't 17 know, police all over the place with guns behind trees 18 and everywhere and they had a big trailer out there and 19 they had concrete blocks all over the place and I -- I 20 didn't want to go near any place like that. I figured 21 anybody showed up there, they might have gotten shot. 22 Q: So -- well, perhaps we'll just play 23 this and it's simply a -- granting permission for Chief 24 Bressette to go to the Command Post. 25
1401 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 2 3 Q: Didn't pick up very much. It's: 4 "MIMA 1 Command Post from Sergeant 5 Hamilton, Tom Bressette at check point 6 coming to Forest Detachment, okay?" 7 And when you got to the Forest Detachment 8 did you go -- where did you go? Did you -- 9 A: I -- I didn't go very far because 10 there were police officers all over and I didn't know 11 who had a gun pointed at me, so I -- I didn't want to do 12 anything. I was told to keep my hands in open sight and 13 -- and there were police all over the place. 14 Q: And -- but did you go and see John 15 Carson or any senior police officer? 16 A: No, I was told to wait and they came 17 in -- came from inside that building and they were all 18 wearing white shirts. People had blue shirts and I 19 don't know who was who there. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I -- I was -- I guess I was more 22 concerned about the way I was being treated with guns 23 being pointed at me than anything else. 24 Q: So that when you got to the Forest 25 Detachment, the -- you waited outside and who came out
1411 to see you with the -- 2 A: I really can't remember at this 3 point. All I know is there were several police officers 4 all over and I'm -- I'm not sure if it was Inspector 5 Linton or Mr. Carson. I -- I don't know who it was, but 6 there were -- somebody came out and I was seeking to get 7 information what happened. 8 Q: And what happened and -- were you 9 still seeking information about Cecil Bernard George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you recall anything -- and I 12 appreciate that it was a long time ago and it was a very 13 stressful evening; do you recall anything about the 14 conversation other than you were seeking information? 15 A: I -- I know when I got there they 16 told me that -- they said three (3) -- three (3) or four 17 (4) of our people were shot. Then they reported to me 18 that -- that Dudley was shot and killed -- Anthony 19 George was killed -- and Bernard -- Cecil Bernard George 20 was killed as well. 21 Q: When you went there at 1:30 -- you 22 knew at 1:30 -- by that time you -- you knew that Mr. 23 Dudley George had died because you referred to that in 24 the conversation -- 25 A: Yeah.
1421 Q: -- with John Carson at twenty (20) 2 to 1:00. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And when you went to the command 5 post at 1:30 are you sure that someone at the command 6 post told you that Cecil Bernard George had been killed? 7 A: Yes, they did. 8 Q: And do you know who said that to 9 you? 10 A: I don't remember. All I know is, 11 when I got there, somebody mentioned that he had died. 12 Q: And how long were you at the command 13 post? 14 A: I wasn't there very long, I -- I 15 guess, you know, when you hear reports like that, that I 16 don't know who got shot and then they said that someone 17 was transported to the ambulance. I didn't know where 18 Bernard was, they wouldn't say. They never said 19 anything other than that there were two (2) people who 20 died and possibly another one (1). 21 Q: Okay. And -- 22 A: I don't remember who said what. All 23 I remember is, you know, I just -- I think, basically 24 went into a state of shock here and, you know, what -- 25 what -- what the heck happened there?
1431 Q: And when did you learn that Cecil 2 Bernard George had not been shot, but was in the 3 hospital? 4 A: I think the next day. 5 Q: And when did you learn that Nicholas 6 Cotrelle was in the hospital? You had spoken about him 7 with -- the first officer you spoke to at twenty (20) -- 8 approximately twenty (20) to 1:00. 9 A: Well, that was the information that 10 came back that positively those two (2) people were 11 identified at that time, but when I asked about Bernard 12 they said that he was killed. 13 Q: And after you left the command post, 14 where did you go, back to Kettle Point? 15 A: I went back to the mall and I talked 16 to the people who were all there and -- and that's when 17 the fire was set ablaze. And, I mean, everything that 18 could burn was being, sort of, gathered up and tossed on 19 the highway and there was a big bonfire erupted. And I 20 don't know, the -- like, things just went crazy at that 21 point. 22 Q: And that was a bonfire on Highway 21 23 near the turnoff to go to the Kettle Point Mall? 24 A: Yeah, and later on one was lit up on 25 -- on Lakeshore Road west of the -- the mall.
1441 Q: West of the mall? And you then had 2 a subsequent telephone conversation with Mr. Carson 3 about Bonni Bressette? 4 A: Yes, I -- I -- basically what I'd 5 done, I -- Bonni -- we needed somebody to go down and 6 see what was going on and Bonni said that she would go 7 down there. She said, Tom, you're not welcome down 8 there, so I think I should try to go down there to see 9 what I can do. 10 I called Mr. Carson, I gave him 11 information that Bonni and her daughter -- her daughter 12 was driving -- Gail -- they'd be going down the -- Bonni 13 gave me her licence plate number. 14 I gave that to Mr. Carson and I told him 15 that they were going down there to basically see what 16 was happening, if there was anything they could do to 17 assist anybody down there. 18 And -- and basically asked him to get the 19 police to -- to leave -- leave the people alone there 20 so, you know, we could basically try and make some 21 attempts to get negotiations going. 22 Q: Okay. And perhaps what I'll do, 23 Chief Bressette, is play the next -- the next clip we 24 have. This is a clip, Commissioner, that I think we may 25 have, but it's here. I think it may be an error, we'll
1451 have to sort it out. It's 232 and it says: 2 "Checkpoint advises Tom Bressette is 3 there again to go to CP. Permission 4 given." 5 But there's no -- this is on page 10 -- 6 the bottom of page 9, top of page 10 of Exhibit 249, but 7 we can find no reference. I think this must be an 8 error. 9 10 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 11 12 Q: And you don't recall going a second 13 time to the command post? 14 A: No. I -- I only went there once. I 15 -- I know, after that guy almost shot me with a shotgun, 16 I -- I didn't feel like going back there again. 17 Q: And this now is a call... 18 19 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 20 21 Q: And Bonni Bressette did go down to 22 the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that call was at 2:54 a.m. on 25 September 7th, according to the record, Commissioner.
1461 And Bonni Bressette went back and forth 2 to the Army Camp a few times; is that not correct? 3 A: I'm not really clear on how many 4 times there. I know she went down there once, she -- 5 she came back and went back again, I believe. I know of 6 two (2) times, I don't know how many times she actually 7 went. 8 Q: And I take it you were up the whole 9 night? 10 A: Three (3) days. 11 Q: Three (3) days in a row you were up? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And then the next call, it's on page 14 11, there's a call at 5:24 a.m. from Mr. Linton, Dale 15 Linton, to Chief Bressette? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And we'll just play that. 18 19 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 20 21 Q: And you then did call Dale Linton, 22 Inspector Linton at -- later on; we have it at 5:58 in 23 the morning? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And ...
1471 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And there's a reference to Chief 5 Coles. Do you recall speaking to Chief Superintendent 6 Coles during the morning of September 7th, 1995? 7 A: He may have been one (1) of the 8 several officers outside the Detachment. I -- I really 9 don't -- can't identify people I don't communicate with 10 regularly and I -- I -- I don't -- I hardly ever seen 11 inspectors. 12 I basically dealt with the sergeant out 13 of Forest. I think his name was Charlie Bouwman at the 14 time, and all of a sudden he just disappeared and like 15 all these other people came in. 16 Q: Okay, and after the call with Mr. 17 Linton, you called him again at 7:11 on the morning of 18 September 7th, and this is at page 14 of Exhibit 249? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And that's about Elaine George? 21 A: Yeah. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED)
1481 2 Q: I don't quite know what happened to 3 that call. 4 And before I go on, there's a couple of 5 small typographical errors and there's one (1) on page 6 15 where it says -- it's one (1) -- fifth entry down, 7 Linton says: 8 "Well, let's hope not but, you know, 9 because it sure is going to rev..." 10 It says "us" but it should be "this": 11 "...it back up again and we don't need 12 that." 13 I'm not certain why the call got cut off 14 but I'll have to sort that out technically but the 15 balance of the call says what is in the transcript, 16 because our office did this transcript, Commissioner. 17 Then, you had another call with -- 18 discussion with Mr. Linton at 8:43 that morning, and 19 that starts at page 16; is that correct, Mr. -- Chief 20 Bressette? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 24 25 Q: You then, Chief Bressette, had a --
1491 another conversation with Mr. Linton -- Inspector Linton 2 -- at 9:07 approximately? 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 6 7 Q: And at -- about fifteen (15) minutes 8 later you did -- you called back to Mr. Linton regarding 9 Mr. Elijah and Mr. Antone and that's at the bottom of 10 page 19. It's approximately 9:22 in the morning of 11 September 7th, Commissioner. 12 13 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 14 15 Q: And before we leave this, there was 16 one (1) last conversation that was captured at this day 17 with the Command Post and it's at ten o'clock in the 18 morning. 19 20 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 21 22 Q: And Commissioner, just before we -- 23 well, there are some minor problems with the transcript, 24 but there's one (1) on page 20 where -- in the middle of 25 the page, it -- it says Mr. Archibald, it's Mr. Linton
1501 during -- in the middle of the conversation. And you 2 had a call that morning -- a conference call with the 3 Chief -- National Chief Ovide Mercredi and a number of 4 other senior political leaders is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there's a -- what we're told is 7 a -- a transcript or a rough -- notes of that call at 8 Tab 82 of the black book that's in front of you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And this call was on September 7th, 13 1995; that was the call. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: This is the call that you were 16 referring to in your conversation with Mr. -- Inspector 17 Linton that you had to go to? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it's noted that it started about 20 9:25? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And on the call was National Chief 23 Ovide Mercredi, Grand Chief Doug Maracle, yourself, 24 Chief Joseph Gilbert, Vice-Chief Gordon Peters, Grand 25 Chief Joe Hare, and Grand Chief Peter Kelly?
1511 A: Yes. 2 Q: In addition, there were a number of 3 staff from the Assembly of First Nations, Ms. Whiteduck, 4 Mr. Pangowish, Ms. LaRose, Ms. Buffalo, Ms. Maracle, and 5 Ms. McKelvey? 6 A: That's Mr. LaRose. 7 Q: Mr. LaRose? Excuse me. 8 A: That's Jean. 9 Q: Jean. Thank you. And have you had 10 the opportunity to take a look at these minutes, and can 11 you tell us if they accurately record the conversation 12 as you can recall it? 13 A: I didn't have a chance to look at 14 it. 15 Q: You didn't have a chance? I wonder 16 if you could take a minute -- a few moments and take a 17 look at those, Chief Bressette? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes, I remember this. 22 Q: And it's the -- this document, as 23 best as you can recall, accurately set out the 24 conversation? 25 A: Yes.
1521 Q: Perhaps we could mark that document, 2 it's Inquiry Document 9000268 as the next exhibit. So, 3 it would be Exhibit 252. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-252, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-252: Document Number 9000268 7 Sept. 07/95, 9:25 minutes of 8 conference call, Assembly of 9 First Nations, Chief Tom 10 Bressette giving summary of 11 events to date. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And I note that during the course of 15 the conference call Mr. Mercredi went off line to speak 16 to Chief Superintendent Coles? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And came back on line and said that 19 Elder Bruce Elijah would be permitted into the Army 20 Camp? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And one (1) of the problems -- and I 23 take it from this transcription that Bonni Bressette was 24 also on this call? 25 A: Yes.
1531 Q: And that the -- one (1) of the 2 problems that you faced was there appeared to be no 3 telephone communication with the Army Camp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was telephone communication 6 restored with the Army Camp? 7 A: Not -- not right away. 8 Q: Not right away? Later that day or 9 the next day, Chief Bressette? 10 A: It was later on, after this -- I'm 11 not sure when that actually happened. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I don't think the -- the telephone 14 people wanted to go near there either. 15 Q: And then Mr. Mercredi, the National 16 Chief Mercredi, said that he would come to Kettle and 17 Stony Point that day and he did, in fact, come that day? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the -- 20 A: Pretty -- pretty much everyone this 21 call did show up at -- in our community. 22 Q: So that Mr. Peters came to the 23 community and Mr. Hare came to the community? 24 A: Yes, Doug Maracle and Peter Kelly as 25 well.
1541 Q: And there was a large -- there was a 2 meeting at the Army Camp, was that on September 7th or 3 was that on September 8th? 4 A: I think it was on the 8th. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: I'm not clear on the date. 7 Q: Okay. And that meeting was attended 8 by you, Mr. Mercredi, and other political leaders from 9 the First Nations? 10 A: I think all of the people were there 11 with the exception of Peter Kelly -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- the Grand Chief of Treaty 3. 14 Q: And you spoke at that meeting as 15 well as Mr. Mercredi? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And was that the first time that you 18 had been in the built-up area of the Army Camp from the 19 time -- during the period of time 1993 to -- 20 A: Yes, when we -- 21 Q: -- to then? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And if I could take you to a -- Tab 24 23 of that book -- black book in front of you. 25
1551 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Did you participate in a conference 4 call on September 7th with Mr. Robert Runciman, the 5 Solicitor General of Ontario? 6 A: On what date? 7 Q: This says June 8th, 1995, but it 8 must mean September 8th, 1995? 9 A: It must have been in September, I 10 don't think it would have been June. 11 Q: Yeah, I think the -- don't -- the 12 June date -- I don't know how -- this is simply a draft, 13 but from the text of the -- of the material in here, 14 it's clearly after the -- the death of Mr. Dudley 15 George, so it has to be after September 6th, 1995. I 16 think it's simply a typographical error. 17 A: I -- I think maybe it's the date 18 that they try and scribe this. When you look 19 underneath, it says this is not an exact transcript of 20 the conversation, but whoever done this must have done 21 it on June the 8th. 22 Q: That -- actually that date is 23 completely wrong because that date would be before the 24 telephone conversation. I think that the date is -- is 25 a refer to September -- I -- I believe it should refer
1561 to September 8th, 1995. 2 A: I'm sure -- 3 Q: But -- 4 A: -- if the date's wrong, shouldn't 5 the whole thing be questionable? 6 Q: Well, the whole thing may very well 7 be questionable, but I'm simply trying to use this as a 8 -- to help a -- as a guide to help you. 9 Do you remember a conference call between 10 yourself, Grand Chief Joe Hare, Regional Chief Gordon 11 Peters, National Chief Ovide Mercredi and Mr. Robert 12 Runciman on the week -- the days following the death of 13 Dudley George? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: And can you recall anything -- can 16 you recall anything about the conversation today? 17 A: Well, the only thing I was really 18 offended that they were go and get an injunction after 19 they'd already done this and there were strange rumours 20 and discussions going on about dropping this thing from 21 a helicopter. 22 I really felt insulted that whatever 23 action they were doing now, it seemed like they were 24 trying to cover up their tracks after the fact. 25 Q: And that's reported on the third
1571 page that you felt an injunction is unnecessary, 2 dropping it from a helicopter is an insult. This was 3 something that you had learned might happen? 4 A: Well, it was basically something 5 that was being suggested, the police were considering, 6 and I thought it was an insult to -- to go to seek an 7 injunction and drop it from a helicopter was -- to me, 8 it was ridiculous. 9 Q: And do you recall anything else 10 about this conversation? 11 A: Basically, the only thing I said is, 12 you know, I didn't know what they were worried about, 13 there was nobody in the Park. They had already -- we 14 had already lost a life over this incident and, you 15 know, the land, you know, we always did have a concern 16 for our land and no one would ever -- was concerned 17 about the fact that were losing a land base and there 18 was all, like, it didn't matter to anybody what happened 19 with regard to our land. 20 Q: And during the days following June - 21 - September 6th and the following week, at one point Mr. 22 Irwin the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs 23 attended at Kettle Point? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- I believe he came on --
1581 can you recall when he attended? 2 A: I'm not sure but it was another 3 thing that angered us a great deal is him showing up 4 after everything had occurred with his secret documents. 5 That was something that really angered me about his 6 whole -- his whole visit at that time. It was like, if 7 they had those -- that information, why weren't they 8 communicating that to the provincial government instead 9 of not -- not dealing with those issues. 10 Q: And that's what you're referring to 11 as information that Mr. Irwin had with respect to burial 12 grounds in the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that was information that his 15 department disclosed after September -- September the 16 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you attend a meeting in 19 Toronto with the Premier and National Chief Mercredi and 20 others after September 6th? 21 A: Oh, yes, I did. The -- the whole 22 events of that meeting were rather strange because we 23 were -- the National Chief was insistent on going down 24 there and confronting the Premier about what had 25 happened and trying to get some process going and -- and
1591 the call for an Inquiry into this. 2 The funny part about it was we were told 3 that the Premier would not see us, the media swarmed the 4 national Chief. And there was a big, long poles that 5 they carry microphones on, they almost knocked me off 6 the stairs, swinging those things wildly. And it was 7 like a frenzy, pushing people aside and just trying to 8 get the first picture of the day or whatever they were 9 doing. 10 We then went into the office. We were 11 escorted to an office and told to -- that the Premier 12 wouldn't see us. And the National Chief said, Well, 13 we're going to stay here until he does. 14 And we were with Charles Fox, who was the 15 Grand Chief of Nishnawbe-Aski Nation, and that's Treaty 16 Number 9 in Northern Ontario. He was there with us. He 17 drove the car that took the National Chief, myself, and 18 I believe Victor Gulevitch went along with us at that 19 particular time, to go down there and basically ask what 20 -- what the heck this whole thing -- went about and 21 asked the Premier about his directions and why he -- he 22 chose to personally involve himself in this. 23 And, you know, we -- we sat and we sat 24 until we -- we did get a meeting, and I think it was the 25 Premier and Charles Harnick, who was the Attorney
1601 General, both came into the room. 2 Q: And can you recall what was said in 3 the meeting when Mr. Harnick and Mr. Harris were in the 4 room? 5 A: Well, the -- the first thing I found 6 was rather strange that he walked in and the first thing 7 he said was, Let me be very clear about this, I didn't 8 tell anybody to kill anybody. That's the first thing 9 that came out of his mouth. 10 He put his hands on the table, because we 11 were in this big committee room, he put his hands on the 12 table and when he lifted his hands you could see his 13 hand imprints were still on the table, how perspiring 14 his hands were, they were leaving marks wherever. And 15 his hands were always moving, and he really looked 16 nervous about meeting with us. 17 Q: And did -- did Premier Harris say 18 anything else? 19 A: Well, he -- he basically just kept 20 saying he had nothing to do with what happened, that it 21 was a -- a police matter, and that he wasn't involved. 22 And the National Chief I think asked him in relation -- 23 he was -- the National Chief done all the talking. I -- 24 I never spoke to him. 25 I was quite angry at the time. And the
1611 National Chief just kept saying, We have to talk to him. 2 And I said, Why? He's done what he's done. He says, 3 Well, we've got to get some facts out of him. And he 4 done most of the talking. 5 And Mr. Fox and myself just sat there and 6 listened to the exchange that was going on. And he just 7 kept trying to say he didn't have anything to do with 8 what went on there, and kept that rhetoric up, and 9 that's all that occurred at that meeting. 10 And the National Chief said he would -- 11 would ask -- consider an inquiry. And he said that 12 there was -- there was an occupation going on, it was a 13 police matter and he wouldn't deal with anything. 14 Q: And did Mr. Harnick say anything, 15 that you recall, at the meeting? 16 A: No. I -- I remember Mr. Harnick 17 basically just slumped back in a chair. His eyes were 18 really glazed over and red, and he never really said a 19 whole lot of anything. He just sat there and observed-- 20 Q: And how long did the meeting -- 21 A: -- what was going on. 22 Q: -- last between you and the Premier? 23 A: It wasn't very long at all. Just 24 the Premier said what he said, he got up and he left. 25 Q: And after the meeting with the
1621 Premier, do you recall when Mr. Irwin came to Kettle 2 Point? 3 A: I think he came the next day. 4 Q: I believe it's -- 5 A: On the 8th maybe, I'm not sure. We 6 signed a document the day he came there and -- and 7 there's probably a copy of it. 8 Q: Yes. There's actually a copy in 9 that bleu book in front of you, which -- which I believe 10 is -- 11 A: There's one here. 12 Q: At Tab -- 13 A: Tab 62. 14 Q: -- at Tab 62. Tab 62? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that is a Memorandum of 17 Understanding between the Federal Government Department 18 of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Chippewa of 19 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. 20 The -- actually this document's already 21 been marked as Exhibit P-46, Inquiry Document 1004285 22 was marked as P-46. This is another copy of it that 23 appears at Tab 62. It's Inquiry Document 1000981 and 24 that Memorandum of Understanding is dated September 13, 25 1995 and I see that -- is that your signature, Chief
1631 Bressette? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And there's the signature of Mr. Ron 4 Irwin? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Mr. Ovide Mercredi? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And Mr. John Adams? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that's dated Wednesday, 11 September 13th, 1995 and was that the day that Mr. Irwin 12 came? 13 A: Yes, that's the day he showed up. 14 Q: And this agreement was worked out, 15 this memorandum of understanding, excuse me, was worked 16 out that day? 17 A: Yes, it was. 18 Q: And it provides that in Paragraph 1 19 that: "The Federal Government had 20 proposed that a negotiator directly 21 responsible to the Minister of Indian 22 and Northern Affairs and Minister of 23 National Defence be appointed within 24 one (1) week; Federal Government is 25 committed to selecting a negotiator
1641 that is acceptable to the First 2 Nation; parties are committed to 3 developing mutually accepted -- 4 acceptable terms of reference for the 5 negotiations aforementioned, but not 6 specifically limited to these 7 mentioned points." 8 And there's a number of points revolving 9 around Camp Ipperwash and the environmental assessment 10 and funding and in Item Number 5: 11 "Adequate funding and full cooperation 12 will be provided by the Department of 13 Indian and Northern Affairs to the 14 First Nation people to identify and 15 protect the burial sites in the 16 Provincial Park and the First Nations 17 grievance surrounding the Park's 18 creation. 19 In the light of documents discovered 20 yesterday from 1937, confirming a 21 burial site, the Federal Government 22 urges the provincial government to 23 fully review all of its records 24 pertaining to the Park." 25 And Item Number 6:
1651 "The Department of National Defence 2 will consider funding a veterans 3 monument at the lands at Stoney 4 Point." 5 And item Number 7: 6 "The Federal Government is committed 7 to providing the resources to work 8 with the First Nations people of 9 Kettle and Stony Point in developing a 10 healing process in the community." 11 And the -- to finish this off, Item 12 Number 2: 13 "The Federal Government again says the 14 Federal Government is committed to 15 transferring the land in dispute 16 namely former Camp Ipperwash to the 17 First Nation people as reserve land." 18 Item Number 3: 19 "The Federal Government is committed 20 to working out a mutually satisfactory 21 environmental clean up of the property 22 at the cost of the Federal 23 Government." 24 Item Number 4: 25 "The First Nation people be exclusive
1661 -- extensively involved in the 2 aforesaid clean up including the 3 environment assessment process." 4 And after this agreement was signed, did 5 the Federal Government appoint a negotiator within one 6 (1) week acceptable to the First Nation? 7 A: They appointed someone but I don't 8 think he was mutually acceptable. They just told us who 9 our negotiator was. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And -- 12 Q: And as -- as well, during this 13 period of time, I understand you had meetings with Mr. - 14 - Chief Superintendent Coles and there were meetings to 15 try to deal with the policing at the -- at the Army Camp 16 and the Park. 17 Did you participate in any of those 18 meetings? 19 A: We had a -- a series of talking 20 circles with the OPP and I mean we were being honest. 21 We felt the information given to them and the 22 discussions that were occurring were -- were -- they're 23 supposed to be honest. 24 But one (1) of our Elders basically 25 chastised the police for being dishonest, coming in
1671 there and trying to use that process and lying to us in 2 the middle of it, when it was something that we 3 considered to be a very, very sacred ceremony, that they 4 violated the whole condition in terms of that. 5 And the Elder made no bones about telling 6 the superintendent what -- exactly what he thought. And 7 -- and that -- that information, I don't think would 8 ever be disputed by Superintendent Coles because he was 9 told directly to his face about it right in -- in those 10 meetings. 11 Q: But I -- I'm -- I'm -- but I -- what 12 I don't know and what you need to explain to us, Chief 13 Bressette -- 14 A: Well, -- 15 Q: -- You said that you had -- there 16 were a number of talking circles with the Ontario 17 Provincial Police and I take it with Chief 18 Superintendent Coles, but what was the -- the item that 19 -- that you say that Chief Superintendent Coles said was 20 not correct and was -- that the Elder was referring to? 21 A: Well, our Elder said that he lied 22 and that he knew he lied. He admitted that he -- he did 23 say some things he shouldn't have and he said, You're 24 just using this to try and -- as a way to come in and 25 try and get what you want done and using our people to
1681 do it. 2 And -- and he cut the meeting off and 3 that was the monkey wrench that ended that process, that 4 basically was brought in. And we never did conclude any 5 type of agreement with them, I don't think, that was 6 reached at that particular meeting because of that. 7 Q: So that -- but the -- I'm just 8 trying to understand. At the meeting with Chief 9 Superintendent Coles, you were trying -- what was trying 10 to be worked out? Was it to -- 11 A: I just stated policing arrangements 12 around the Base and at Ipperwash. 13 Q: And -- and as a result of some of 14 the statements that Chief Superintendent Coles or others 15 from the OPP made at the meeting, the meeting came to an 16 end? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Ultimately, there was a -- were you 19 aware of -- in front of you there's a copy of Exhibit P- 20 47, it's 1010496. It should be the very last document 21 in that blue folder. It says, "P-47" at the top, Chief 22 Bressette. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Have you seen that document before? 25 A: I -- I'm really not sure. I think -
1691 - I think I may have. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I've seen so many policing 4 agreements it's unbelievable. But it looks like one (1) 5 of our Council members witnessed this document, so it 6 must be in our records. 7 Q: I believe it is Bonni -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- Bonni Bressette. 10 A: It must be in our records in our 11 office somewhere. She signed this. 12 Q: And this relates to the joint 13 identification investigation by the SIU. Was an 14 agreement worked out with the OPP with respect to 15 policing around the Army Camp back in September 1995 16 whereby the Anishnaabeg police participated? 17 A: Well, I know the Anishnaabeg police 18 came down and -- and they were basically riding around 19 with white flags on their -- their cruisers. They were 20 doing patrols around the -- the Base and they didn't 21 have any guns, they didn't have any weapons on them, 22 they were just police officers in the vehicles. 23 That was, I think, some of the conditions 24 that were applied to them that they couldn't be armed. 25 And I think that's the arrangement that was worked out.
1701 And I don't know how that -- I think 2 there was a -- a joint meeting in the -- the police 3 office at Kettle Point where members from the -- the 4 occupying group came down and -- with Bruce Elijah and 5 Howard and representatives of the Council were -- were 6 in attendance at that meeting. And I don't know if that 7 was in -- it must have been in September. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: My -- my lightbulb isn't clicking 10 on, so it's one (1) of those times which I -- I do 11 recall being in a meeting and sitting there and having 12 the discussions and I think it was -- Chris Coles was at 13 that meeting and establishing a process whereby they -- 14 they would be patrolling the outside perimeter, and that 15 was all. 16 Q: And do you recall after the events 17 of September 6th having a meeting with Mr. Hodgson, the 18 Minister of Natural Resources, and Mr. Peter Allen? 19 A: I don't know that I -- what date was 20 that? 21 Q: I don't have a date. It was 22 sometime after the -- the events of September 6th? 23 A: I -- I would have to be -- sort of 24 have something to -- reference point that -- to be able 25 to tell you.
1711 Q: I appreciate that. The -- I'm -- 2 perhaps I'll let someone else deal with that. Now, 3 before we close the -- can you describe the feelings 4 within your community after the shooting of -- the death 5 of Mr. Dudley George? 6 A: Well, I know there's a lot of anger 7 and resentment towards the OPP for -- for what had 8 occurred. I know people didn't trust them, they didn't 9 feel they could call them for anything. There was a 10 great resistance if anybody needed any help to call on 11 an OPP officer because of what had occurred. And I 12 guess relations were probably never more strained than 13 ever before that -- than we've dealt with the police. 14 And, you know, when I think back now 15 about the Memorandum of Understanding that we had to 16 deal with, Mr. Irwin was a -- he was a pretty fast 17 talker and I know he -- all he wanted to do was -- and 18 he kept saying, Do you want to make a deal? You want to 19 make a deal? And he was impressing on Council he was 20 there from the government trying to resolve matters. 21 And I know at that time our Council was 22 under a great of stress. There was a lot of pressure in 23 the community to find some way to resolve what was going 24 on. And we had a tremendous amount of people waiting in 25 the Community Centre while we were meeting with the
1721 Federal Government, awaiting the outcome of what was 2 going to happen. 3 And I don't believe really today, and it 4 was in my best interest, in the state of mind I was in 5 and my Council and the -- the stress that was upon us, 6 to sit down and negotiate that type of agreement that 7 would adequately address the concerns, the statement of 8 principles that we had basically adopted. 9 Those things were not brought into that, 10 which, you know, in my mind right now should have been 11 the basis of which we were stating any principles 12 because we were given that by the community. 13 But given the stress factor and -- and 14 trying to find a solution and -- and the atmosphere, I - 15 - I really didn't think we -- it was fair for them to 16 come and deal with us that way at that particular point 17 in time, and walk away with a document, saying, This is 18 it. 19 That's -- that's really what I feel when 20 you mention that because that's the kind of tension and 21 -- and I guess anxiety that was in our Council. And I 22 recall we didn't even have a debriefing session. There 23 was no way for anybody to adequately deal with their 24 feelings or -- or to have the opportunity to even take a 25 breath. It was just push, push, push.
1731 And, like I said, it was one (1) of those 2 times I went three (3) days without sleep, trying to 3 find a solution and deal with some of the things that 4 were happening. So, you know, we didn't wind up in 5 World War III breaking out in our backyard. 6 Our Elders were afraid, they were wanting 7 to leave the community because they feared the OPP were 8 going to come and attack our community, and -- and they 9 were very concerned. And some of them actually did get 10 up and leave. 11 I remember being asked late at night to 12 go and talk to groups of Elders who were frustrated. 13 They were afraid and you could see shadows going by, 14 people on the lawn and they said, Are those police out 15 there? They were very concerned. 16 That's the kind of atmosphere that our 17 community lived in. And it was -- it was one (1) of the 18 most horrible situations that I've ever experienced, 19 having to, sort of, try and calm somebody down and not 20 even know what was taking place, whether I was being 21 given information I could believe it, or whether it was 22 something I couldn't. It was a tough time. 23 Q: And during that, prior to the period 24 of time, prior to September 4th, 1995, how would you 25 describe the relationship be -- prior to September 6th,
1741 excuse me, 1995, how would you describe the relationship 2 between your community and the Ontario Provincial 3 Police? 4 A: Well, the relations, I guess, we 5 always tried to establish good relations. We wanted 6 peace and order in the community and we tried to work 7 with the OPP but there was glitches going on internally 8 at that time with their own police force. They weren't 9 getting along that great with the OPP. 10 And I'm not really clear on what cause 11 that dissension but it was -- seemingly there was a lot 12 of mistrust towards our officers and I guess there was a 13 breakdown in communication at points. 14 But you know, go back a few years prior 15 to that, I would have to say relations seemed to be very 16 good with them. You know, there's -- it seemed like we 17 hit a rocky road and when communications break down and 18 people stop talking, that's when I think there's a lot 19 of problems crop up and are created by that. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: But -- but today, I don't know. 22 Every time there's an OPP cruiser come on to our 23 reserve, the phone rings in my office and I get asked, 24 What are the OPP doing on our reserve? 25 That -- that still exists today. I hope
1751 that subsides, because our people have to learn to, you 2 know, deal with something that bad that occurred and try 3 to -- try to move on and forward. 4 Q: And I understand at the time, that 5 you had no communication with the then Commissioner, Mr. 6 O'Grady of the OPP? 7 A: No, I never had any communication 8 with him. 9 Q: And did -- at the -- back in 10 September of 1995, did you attempt to communicate with 11 him? 12 A: Yes, I did and I never got anywhere. 13 Today, I guess, the current Commissioner, Gwen Boniface, 14 I have a excellent relationship with her. I feel, at 15 least when I talk to her, I'm being heard. And I think 16 she's very empathetic towards some of the issues we've 17 dealt with as native people and just trying sensitize 18 the OPP in how to deal with that. 19 Because I had personal discussions, 20 basically asking for some way to understand we're not 21 all evil people, we're -- we're people struggling 22 because our history basically in this country has been 23 totally ignored. They don't look at the fact that 24 during the war of 1812 our people fought to help keep 25 this Canada and -- and played a vital part in this
1761 country and that has never been told. 2 Emigrants are brought in here and 3 basically told we're bad people because we don't pay 4 taxes and all we ever get is negative press. 5 Even when we do good things, it's never 6 shown in the press that we have somehow improved things 7 and we're trying to improve things, but I think all of 8 that given has created an air of suspicion to anybody 9 who comes in contact with our people. 10 I recall hearing an officer who patrolled 11 a -- and I spoke to him, he's new in this area. He -- 12 he was out on Kettle Point, I was down on the beach and 13 he -- he stopped by and he said, How are you and I told 14 him okay. 15 And he told me who he was and said he 16 really liked the area. And he said that was shocked 17 that he'd called and told them where he was and they 18 said, What, you're out there after dark by yourself? 19 Are you out of your mind? 20 And he said, I don't have no apprehension 21 about talking to you, I've -- I've known a lot of native 22 people. 23 So you know, I recognize there's good 24 people, you know, and that's the thing. There are good 25 people trying to, sort of, build a cohesive relationship
1771 with us and, you know, those are the kind of things we 2 have to build on. I don't want to live in a horrible 3 world. I do not want to leave a world where my children 4 hate somebody else. I -- I hope that they'll raise 5 their kids to learn that we all have to get along in 6 this life. 7 Q: And from what you've said, you have 8 a good relationship, then, with the present Commissioner 9 Gwen Boniface? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you find her supportive to try 12 to deal with, find solutions to issues that you raise? 13 A: Yes. I know there's been other 14 times when -- when she called me and just asked me what 15 -- what I thought about certain things and they were 16 back when there were e-mails floating around within the 17 OPP and there was a lot of anger being expressed 18 politically from our leadership about the content of 19 those photos that were being passed around the internet 20 with comments on them about a dead native woman and, you 21 know, it -- it really was getting to her to, How do I 22 make your people understand I'm trying to deal with 23 this? 24 And all I could say is, I know you're 25 trying to do a good job. I know that you're sensitive
1781 to this kind of thing and -- and I appreciate the fact 2 that you called me. I don't know how to deal with this, 3 but I'll do my best to convey it to other people I come 4 in contact with and she was appreciative of that. 5 Q: And before we close, I'm going to 6 ask you two (2) things. The first is, one (1) of the 7 jobs that the Commissioner has is to make 8 recommendations to try to avoid this type of situation 9 happening again and I would like you to give any 10 thoughts you have on recommendations to the 11 Commissioner. 12 And secondly, after you've done that, if 13 there's anything else you wish to add, then please feel 14 free to do so. But firstly, do you have any comments 15 that you would like to give to the Commissioner with 16 respect to his recommendations to avoid this type of 17 situation happening again in the future, Chief 18 Bressette? 19 A: Yes, I've -- I've given this a great 20 deal of thought and I know when these issues come up, 21 nobody ever does the adequate research necessary. 22 The government holds much of the records 23 on all these transactions. They know when they've done 24 wrong, but they don't disclose it, but when our people 25 find out and try to re-right a wrong, they just deny it,
1791 even though there's records in -- in their archives. 2 Instead of putting a -- a freeze and a 3 hold on -- on immediate action on -- on the subject, I 4 think that they should do a thorough research of their 5 documentation and if they are wrong, don't go charging 6 in and say, Well, take me to court and prove I'm right 7 before I recognize that you have a right. 8 I think, you know, that's something 9 that's always bothered me, that documentation does exist 10 and it's in the government's hands. They -- they've 11 been the record keepers from the time they got here and, 12 you know, had they been, I guess, wanting to do the 13 right thing or -- or the wrong thing and hide everything 14 and destroy these, they never would have kept records. 15 But they do so to justify their ownership of this land 16 and I think that's the whole problem we have as First 17 Nations people. 18 Q: And the government you're referring 19 to is the Federal Government? 20 A: Both levels of government right now 21 because they're the ones that make legislation that 22 impacts on our people. 23 The other thing was on these -- these ER 24 teams, these -- these crowd management. I mean, we have 25 enough people that are in the law enforcement ranks that
1801 know our people. There's no need to send -- bring 2 strangers in who've got itchy trigger fingers or 3 whatever their -- their motive is for coming in and 4 wanting to pull a gun out and use that on people. 5 If our people managed -- had a -- a 6 response team that was made up of our own people to deal 7 with our own people, it would probably do everybody a 8 world of good, because our efforts in trying to make 9 people aware and sensitize them about the culture, the 10 history and the belief we have, have virtually gone 11 ignored. 12 And it's strange that it's 2005 -- Canada 13 called itself a country in 19 -- in 1867, they were, I 14 guess, confederated. And all this while the original 15 people have always been left somewhere in the shadows, 16 that we didn't have rights or privileges. 17 And -- and, you know, I can see it in the 18 media. You see it in the paper, from people who write 19 articles and say that who do we think we are, getting a 20 free ride off the taxpayer. 21 You know, these are beliefs we have, that 22 when our people negotiated those treaties, and this has 23 been passed on to us, it's our own history, that we 24 agreed to share this land. We didn't give it away. And 25 -- and there's an old phrase that's coined many times
1811 when somebody says, I want that back, they said, Indian 2 giver. 3 You know, that's -- that's terminology 4 and it's racist terminology. And it comes from the fact 5 that somebody gave everything away to somebody and said, 6 Give it back. Well, that's not our view. Our view has 7 always been we agreed to share this land. 8 And I think you're seeing Court rulings 9 now that are beginning to recognize that across this 10 country. Resource Revenue Sharing Bill is being put 11 forward to Ontario legislature, and that thing should be 12 seriously looked at. Because you look around where we 13 live in Southern Ontario, all of our resources, the 14 timber, the mining, the oil, everything is all gone. As 15 First Nations People we never got a share of that. 16 We got pushed onto postage-size reserves 17 and told, Stay there forever. But our treaty says, If 18 the government ever sees that this land is too small to 19 support our people, our reserves are to be made bigger. 20 But you know the -- the general consensus of some other 21 governments is, Oh don't give the Indians anymore land. 22 We were generous people. We welcomed the 23 people who were basically moving from another country, 24 shared our knowledge with them, how to live and survive 25 on the land.
1821 I hope all of these are shaped somehow to 2 give education to people, to say, We're not -- We're not 3 horrible people. What we want is what they want. We 4 want a good life for our people. We want to be able to 5 have pride in ourselves, who we are. 6 And they have done much damage to us. 7 Residential schools, they tried to take our language 8 away, they -- you know, they -- they tried to destroy 9 our culture. So we would be basically brown-white 10 people is what they wanted us to be. But even when they 11 try to make us that, they don't respect us in the same 12 light. 13 You know, I wish racism didn't exist in 14 this country, but it does. You know, I know racism 15 comes from our people too because of the way they've 16 been treated. But more so these little innuendos about 17 Indian giver, about, you know, wagon burner, all of 18 these things I heard as a child growing up, in school. 19 Even reading a book when I was in grade 20 school that was talking about savages. And I looked at 21 the picture who the savages were, it was me they were 22 referring to. That's what was taught to a lot of people 23 and that is somehow ingrained in the minds. 24 And that's why I believe we run into 25 these kind of problems here, is because no one wants to
1831 combat the issue of racism. When they do it's like, you 2 know, Let's not get into this politically-correct 3 speaking. It's not about politically correct. It's 4 about respect, respect for other people and their -- and 5 their way of living. Understanding that what -- if they 6 want to be traditional in the way they live, that should 7 be respected, not made fun of by people. 8 You know, it's strange and I've often 9 heard many Indian leaders say this, I shouldn't say 10 Indian because we're not from India. And I'm -- I'm 11 glad this country wasn't called -- or the Italians 12 weren't looking for Turkey when they -- they came here, 13 they'd be calling us Turkeys. 14 You know, they -- they were looking for 15 India when they came here, so they called us all Indians 16 because they thought they found India. But, you know, 17 that just demonstrates that we're Anishnaabe People. 18 You know, there's different names for our people. We're 19 like the people in Europe. We had civilizations, we had 20 governments. But they were all basically tread 21 underfoot. 22 You know, I really feel there has to be 23 some recognition and respect for the way other people 24 live and try to understand us as opposed to saying the 25 rule of law exists.
1841 Because, we never made the rule of law. 2 If the rule of law existed, the laws that we had, they 3 were a lot stricter than the laws in Canada. You know, 4 and it was done to our own people, if they done a wrong 5 to another member, they were basically sent out to live 6 on their own and that basically meant death. 7 Because you can't isolate yourself from 8 your nation. You don't survive like that and, you know, 9 those are things, I guess when you ask me what happens, 10 that's the problem we run into as First Nation people. 11 We're not respected for being First 12 Nation people. We're looked at in this scenario like we 13 did something wrong and somebody's got to prove we were 14 wrong to justify the act of -- and upholding the rule of 15 law. 16 You know that's where this all winds up 17 being is somebody's trying to prove that things were 18 done wrong or inappropriately but I've got to say the 19 government is much to blame as anybody else, holding on 20 to our land as long they are ignoring land claims, that 21 can't go on. 22 And Ontario's the greatest one who 23 offends that process. When claims are brought up they 24 tell us, Oh, go and see the Federal Government. They've 25 got an interest, too, they're part of the Crown.
1851 And -- and, you know, they -- they're 2 calling themself the Crown of Ontario. What is the 3 federal and the provincial Crown in -- in my mind, 4 legislatively, they both make laws and those laws rule 5 on us. 6 But we need our own people, basically, 7 trained to handle these and they got to be respected. 8 In the ranks of the OPP, how many people are coloured, 9 do you think, are in the top ranking officials there? I 10 don't think you'll find any other people are coloured, 11 are all what people -- what our people call white 12 people. 13 And I know that's a bad phrase, because 14 there is no such thing as white people. You know, 15 there's people who maybe are of a different ethnic 16 origin, but my uncle once told me and he passed on, he 17 said, Tell me what a white man is? 18 And I looked at him, I says, Well, isn't 19 that somebody who -- who doesn't have brown skin and he 20 said, No that's not true. People have different 21 colours, they're -- he said, you know what white is? 22 White's like the sheet of paper. Show me somebody that 23 colour and he was right, I couldn't. 24 But he was just trying to tell me we're 25 all people, you know, and don't say that to somebody
1861 white people. 2 Q: And before I -- we stop, I wanted to 3 take you to one other document. It's Tab 68 of the 4 black book in front of you, and it's a letter that you 5 wrote to the then Premier Harris, dated April 9, 1996. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And that is a letter advising Mr. 10 Harris that the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation is 11 to make -- file a claim with respect to the Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that claim has been made? 15 A: Yes, it has. 16 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 17 next exhibit. It would be -- 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-253, your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-253: Document Number 1010726 21 April 09/96 letter to 22 Premier Michael D. Harris 23 from Chief Tom Bressette Re: 24 Ipperwash Prov. Park. 25
1871 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: P-253. And I wish to thank you, 3 Chief Bressette for your comments and your 4 recommendations and before we -- I finish and close my 5 examination, is there is anything else you would like to 6 tell the Commissioner? 7 A: All I know is our community has been 8 severely damaged by the events that occurred. Every 9 time we -- we try to find a way to -- to deal with our 10 issues we were ignored by government. The statement of 11 negotiating principles, we'd asked for a monument to be 12 erected for our veterans. 13 Our veterans fought in the wars to make 14 this a country and, you know, it's really sad that when 15 they were -- believed they were fighting for our 16 country, somebody was at home stealing their land. And 17 that needs to be recognized and that needs to be dealt 18 with and I -- I know that the Commission doesn't have a 19 mandate to deal with the claims and I know they're 20 making recommendations, but that's a recommendation that 21 needs to be -- to be given. 22 They need to recognize our people fought 23 to help keep this a country, fought because they seen 24 another race being violated and they need to end the 25 discriminatory legislation that is being used against
1881 us. 2 And what I mean is, there's a -- a 3 particular bill that's basically trying to wipe us out - 4 - a piece of legislation, Bill C-31. It's a federal 5 piece of legislation that has a six one (6/1), six two 6 (6/2) component that basically wipes out the 7 grandchildren of a lot of our -- our families and the 8 mothers, when they fought for recognition and our rights 9 to be returned under that bill because it was 10 discriminatory against women. 11 And after they passed the bill, the -- 12 the bureaucrats started making and tampering with the 13 Indian Act trying to bring about what the Indian Act was 14 all about. 15 It was about managing and getting rid of 16 us as people. And we need to have our recognition in 17 this country. I -- I can't help but say I feel very 18 strongly about this because I've been engaged in trying 19 to create legislation that will help our people, but 20 always the bureaucrats on the other end tinker with our 21 work and -- and bring forward legislation that isn't of 22 our making. 23 If we could have a hand or say in these 24 kind of things, it -- it would go a great ways to 25 improving the kind of conditions we live under and stop
1891 the feelings that are generated in our communities that 2 we're -- we're an abused people and it's politically all 3 right to abuse us. 4 It's okay to try and get rid of us any 5 way it can and I -- I just think it's -- it's not right 6 and somebody should make a statement about the human 7 rights issues that are -- are at play in this whole 8 area. That's what I wanted to say. Thank you. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 10 Chief Bressette. Those are my questions. I wish to 11 thank you very much for coming. 12 My Friends in the room will all have some 13 questions and perhaps, Commissioner, before we take the 14 afternoon break, which we might have taken a little 15 earlier, but we thought -- I thought it would be best if 16 we finished with Chief Bressette in-chief. Perhaps we 17 could have an indication from everyone how long they 18 think they might be and then take the afternoon break? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 20 fine. I would like to thank you as well, Chief 21 Bressette, for coming and giving us a great deal to 22 think about. Thank you very, very much. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suspect 25 that there may be some questions for the Chief, so who
1901 has -- who can express an indication now to have 2 questions for the Chief and how long might you be? 3 Let's get an idea. 4 By the way, I want to say to all Counsel, 5 I appreciate you cooperating with us in this way and 6 giving us an indication because I know that you don't 7 have to do this, but it's making it work a lot more 8 efficiently by having you cooperate, so I thank you and 9 most of the time when you give an estimate, you stick to 10 it, so I'm very grateful for the cooperation. 11 No questions from the Estate of Dudley 12 George, Mr. Rosenthal? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour and a half 14 (1 1/2) to two (2) hours. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An hour and 16 a half (1 1/2) to two (2) hours? 17 Ms. Hensel, are you making a note of 18 this? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I am. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You are as 21 well? Mr. Ross, I think is next. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I will go next if 23 that's what you want. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 25 are.
1911 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, you are next on 2 the list. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps one (1) hour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps one 6 (1) hour? 7 Mr. Horton, I think you may be next. 8 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Possibly ten (10) 9 to fifteen (15) minutes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any other 11 -- Mr. Eyolfson...? 12 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe ten (10) to 13 twenty (20) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any other 15 aboriginal parties that I haven't seen? 16 Mr. Henderson...? Okay. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Freeborn, I 18 think, is next. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 20 Province of Ontario...? 21 MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: I may have ten 22 (10), twenty (20) minute, depending on my colleague. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will you 24 work it out between you who goes first. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it normally
1921 would be the Government of Ontario. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Normally it 3 is the Government of Ontario. 4 MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: It was my 5 understanding that occasionally we have to shift the 6 order -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having 8 a difficult time hearing you because you're not speaking 9 from a mike. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what Ms. -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Ms. Freeborn said 13 is that she'll work it out with -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Mr. Downard and 16 Ms. Tuck-Jackson if they want to switch the order 17 around. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 19 fine. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, she's going to be 21 fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes. 22 The Ontario Provincial Police...? 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: About an hour. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) hours. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Ontario
1931 Provincial Police Association...? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: An hour to an hour and 3 a half (1 1/2). 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 Downard...? 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: An hour to an hour 7 and a half (1 1/2), subject to abridgement. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the -- 9 the political parties, Mr. Eyolfson -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Hodgson...? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and Mr. 12 Hodgson. 13 MR. CRAIG MILLS: Thirty (30) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 15 Hutton...? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the next would be 17 Mr. Sulman. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sulman 19 for Mr. Beaubien...? 20 MR. DOUGLAS A. SULMAN: Ten (10) to 21 fifteen (15) minutes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And how 23 long might you be? 24 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Approximately ten 25 (10) minutes.
1941 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 2 O'Marra? 3 MR. AL O'MARRA: About ten (10) to 4 fifteen (15) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, I just want to - 7 - to remind everyone that if we can -- that Chief 8 Bressette can be here tomorrow but he cannot be here 9 next week. So that it would be -- I would ask everyone, 10 if we could, to try to work as hard as we can to get 11 this done -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In one -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- by the end of 14 tomorrow. And it may be that we'll have to sit -- we 15 should sit a little longer tomorrow to -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And today 17 if necessary. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And today if 19 necessary. But Chief Bressette cannot be here next 20 week, I understand. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if -- 22 if we don't complete him tomorrow, he would come back -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We would have to 24 arrange -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- at some
1951 future time. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- a different time, 3 yeah. But on the number of hours here, we should get 4 finished if everybody works hard. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 6 a short break. Thank you very much. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 8 for ten (10) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 3:34 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 3:45 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- I wanted to just 18 alert everyone that tonight we'll sit to 5:30 and 19 tomorrow if necessary we'll sit to 5:30 or later to get 20 the Chief done. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll do 22 our best to finish it by the end of tomorrow. That's 23 fine. 24 Mr. Rosenthal, sir...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Good
1961 afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: And good afternoon, Chief Bressette 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm one 7 of the co-counsel for the Group of Descendants of Dan 8 and Melva George -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- under the name Aazhoodena and 11 George Family Group. And I wanted to begin with just a 12 particular question. I -- I didn't understand what you 13 said about your meeting with the person who was to be -- 14 to be Prime Minister Chretien just before the 1993 15 election. 16 You indicated you had a discussion with 17 him about the seizure of Camp Ipperwash and -- and he 18 made some commitment to you but I didn't understand what 19 you say. 20 Did you -- did you quote him as saying 21 something to the effect of, If I'm elected I'll tell you 22 yes or no, in other words he'll you an answer one way or 23 the other? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But he didn't say which way he'd
1971 give the answer -- 2 A: Well, he told me he would go back 3 and review information and he would tell me yes or he 4 would tell me no definitely because -- 5 Q: I see. 6 A: -- it was lingering on since he was 7 the Minister of Indian Affairs. 8 Q: I see. So, it wasn't a commitment 9 to return the lands, it was a commitment to decide the 10 question? 11 A: No. He was actually determining 12 that the whole issue that was raised with him in 1972 13 was to deal specifically with the return of the land 14 when no longer required. 15 And basically the -- the commitment we 16 got back out of the -- the correspondence that's in -- 17 in these records basically indicated that they're going 18 to be returning them to us. 19 Q: The earlier correspondence, you 20 mean? 21 A: What's that? 22 Q: That -- you got that out of the 23 earlier correspondence? But -- but you -- you've 24 clarified, I think, my question. I'll move on. 25 A: Okay.
1981 Q: Now, we've heard something about -- 2 in various ways throughout this Inquiry, about some 3 friction between Kettle and Stoney Point people and so 4 on. 5 Isn't it fair to say that all of that was 6 caused by the appropriation of the Stoney Point Reserve 7 in 1942 and the forced relocation of those people and 8 that created resentments on all sides and so on? 9 That -- that's the -- the root of all 10 that problem, isn't it? 11 A: I really don't know. I -- I -- I 12 know we were getting along fine in our community all 13 through my years of growing up. 14 It wasn't until Mr. Maynard T. George 15 started digging around stating that he had proof that 16 there was, in fact, two (2) bands where all of the 17 friction started to come from because my course of 18 memory throughout the years, the Council was always 19 trying to have that land returned back to the -- to the 20 -- the locatees and people who had interests in the 21 land. 22 And that was the way it was dealt with 23 historically and politically in our records. That's 24 the way it shows. 25 Q: And we heard that at the time of the
1991 appropriation in 1942 there was a lot of friction 2 created even at that time and there was resentment that 3 stemmed from that; isn't that fair to say? 4 A: Well, I think what -- if I was alive 5 back then, I could really tell you what happened, but I 6 can only go by -- as what many other people have done, 7 looked at the historical accounts. And I think it -- I 8 would have to categorize it, if you wanted an answer 9 from me. It would be like me moving onto your property 10 and would you get upset with me? 11 Q: I might well. 12 A: I think that's probably the kind of 13 friction that -- 14 Q: Exactly, that's what -- 15 A: -- that generated that and it was by 16 the forced appropriation that was -- was imposed because 17 there was a vote and everybody voted unanimously and 18 Kettle and Stony Point rejected that surrender. I mean, 19 that's what the government wanted and it was totally 20 rejected by everyone. So, everybody was called in to 21 make a decision on this fact. 22 Q: In any event, we're many years after 23 1942, and hopefully there'll be some resolution in the 24 future. 25 A: Well, that's what we're hoping for.
2001 Q: That's what everybody's hoping for, 2 I presume. Would you agree that given what the 3 government did do to the people of Kettle and Stony 4 Point, it should be their responsibility to offer enough 5 of a resolution that everybody can go away happy. 6 A: That's what I believe. I -- I hope 7 that happens. 8 Q: And I would suggest to you that 9 could be done by a resolution that gave the Stoney Point 10 Reserve lands back to Stoney Point people who have a 11 special identification with that land and gave enough 12 compensation in money or other lands to other people so 13 that everybody's happy. 14 That would be a possible resolution, 15 would it not? 16 A: It's a nice wish. 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect, 18 Commissioner, there are a lot of options on the table 19 currently being negotiated. Mr. Rosenthal's may -- may 20 be an attractive one, but I don't think the -- the Chief 21 should be agreeing to one in preference to all of the 22 others at this point or in this context. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, mine was not 24 a very specific one, but I don't know why the Chief 25 can't agree or disagree in any event.
2011 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Chief-- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it may be -- it 3 may be on -- I don't know anything about the -- the 4 negotiations, but -- but what I take from Mr. 5 Henderson's objection is that there are ongoing 6 negotiations with the Federal Government and many things 7 may be on the table. 8 And what I take from his objection that 9 perhaps things are on the table that it would be 10 inappropriate to ask the Chief to commit to one (1) or 11 the other in a public forum when it might impact 12 adversely on the negotiations taking place with the 13 Federal Government. And our mandate -- there -- there 14 is, of course, a restriction in our mandate not to 15 interfere with ongoing legal proceedings. 16 But as a practical matter, and for the -- 17 the people of this community, if -- and the community -- 18 the people who live at Kettle Point and the people who 19 live at Stoney Point and the -- the issues they have 20 with the Federal Government. 21 It would be inappropriate to jeopardize 22 those -- the negotiations with the Federal Government by 23 asking position type questions about negotiating 24 positions to the Chief, in my view. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you very
2021 much. 2 Inspector -- Mr. Commissioner, I don't think that my 3 question was of a type that would require a response 4 such as either Mr. Henderson or Mr. Millar -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Indeed 6 not -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It was a much more 8 general notion that might -- might be a background the 9 notion. And I would point out that there have been 10 negotiations going on about this since 1942, evidently 11 and if the existence of negotiations would mean that one 12 cannot ask a question about a general solution, that 13 would mean we can't talk about this at all -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I asked a very 16 general question about responsibility to provide a big 17 enough pie that would make everybody happy. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Chief 19 could have said that's one (1) idea. There are others 20 being considered and that would have been a satisfactory 21 answer. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, whatever his 23 answer would be satisfactory. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In view of 25 the objections, I'm not anxious to proceed in this area,
2031 because we are not supposed to be resolving that issue 2 here. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Again, with 4 respect, sir, my understanding is that we would adduce 5 evidence such as -- such as came forward. And we would, 6 at the end of the day, argue about the possible scope 7 for your recommendations, and I do expect to be arguing 8 in that direction -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 10 fine -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- at the end of 12 the day. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 14 say recommendations. I said resolving the issues. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, no, no. 16 Yeah -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, well that's-- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- are in a 20 position to make recommendations. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Exactly. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: SO, I'm not 23 sure if we need to pursue this at this point. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm not sure. I 25 believe he gave me a yes, and if that's so, that's --
2041 I'm happy to move on, but... 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay, can I ask if 4 he did give me a yes to my answer -- to my question? 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: If I may assist, 6 Commissioner? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Henderson...? 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: My Friend asked 10 would it be nice at the end of the day if there was 11 enough on the table for everyone to be happy with an 12 ultimate settlement. The Chief said yes. Difficult to 13 imagine anyone saying no, but the Chief did say yes to 14 that. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To that 16 question. 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And that's his 18 last word on the subject. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, it wasn't 21 quite that question, but anyway, I'll move on, Mr. 22 Chairman. I know that we want to get on, Mr. 23 Commissioner, and I will move on. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Rosenthal.
2051 2 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: Now, towards the end of your 4 examination by Mr. Millar, he referred you to Tab 62 of 5 your document brief which is Exhibit P-46, I believe, to 6 these Proceedings. 7 Do you have that in front of you, sir? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: This is a memorandum of 10 understanding that you were one of the signatories to on 11 September 13, 1995, right after the incidents that led 12 to this Inquiry. 13 I should just like to quickly go over 14 that from the point of view as to what's happened. 15 You indicated with respect to Point 16 Number 1, the Federal Government did not do what is 17 committed there, namely they did not select a negotiator 18 acceptable to the First Nation. 19 They selected a negotiator, but it was 20 not acceptable to the First Nation; is that correct? 21 A: Well, -- 22 Q: That is correct, is that -- 23 A: Going -- 24 Q: -- what you told -- 25 A: -- going -- going back to where
2061 you're at, they appointed somebody we -- we rejected. 2 He got fired, he got moved off. We got another one, we 3 rejected him. He got fired. And it's been going like 4 that because some people, in our minds, are -- only 5 question the mandate whether they've a mandate to 6 resolve anything or, you know, I mean I really don't 7 want to go into where we're at in our negotiations. 8 But to respond to you there have been 9 several changes that occur through time in the processes 10 and we're currently dealing with the federal negotiator 11 that was agreed to. 12 Q: And with respect to Number 2, the 13 Federal Government is committed to transferring the land 14 in dispute to the First Nations people as reserve land. 15 It has still not been formally 16 transferred, is my understanding. Is that yours, sir? 17 A: That's what I keep being told. 18 Q: So even ten (10) years after this 19 agreement, that has not been done? 20 A: I -- like I said, I really don't 21 want to go into negotiations. I -- I wish we could 22 leave those alone because that's ongoing and, I mean, 23 the government's probably watching. 24 The government negotiator is probably 25 watching me on TV and getting his interpretation of what
2071 I'm saying here, whether I'm -- I'm condemning the 2 process before we're finished or where we're at. So -- 3 Q: Well, -- 4 A: -- you know, it's something that we 5 have to take back ultimately to our membership and they 6 have to accept or reject, and we move from there. So, 7 by all means, we're not anywhere so anybody has to 8 worry. It still has to come back for our community to 9 have their say on. 10 Q: Yes. Well, now, sir, you, at the 11 time and in some of your evidence, criticised some of 12 the Stoney Point people who reclaimed the land rather 13 than waiting for negotiations; right? 14 A: Well, I didn't agree with the -- the 15 process that was used. 16 Q: But -- 17 A: And I think it's led to the death of 18 one of our people. That's the main reason why we didn't 19 agree with it. 20 Q: Well, sir, would you agree that the 21 question of negotiation about the return of this land 22 has been going on for a very, very long time, through 23 several generations of First Nations People; isn't that 24 right? 25 A: Yes, it has.
2081 Q: And that might suggest that maybe 2 there was some sense to people reclaiming the land 3 rather than waiting for a few more generations of 4 negotiations? 5 A: You know, when a -- a soldier 6 wouldn't even walk on that land, why would I tell our 7 people, Let's go move in down there and get blown up? 8 I mean, that doesn't make sense. When 9 someone littered that property with unexploded ordinance 10 we should just move in? I -- I think that's a dangerous 11 proposition and one that would probably get me and 12 whoever else suggested we do that sued, if that, in 13 fact, did happen. 14 Q: Now, sir, one (1) of the documents 15 that we looked at, and I don't necessarily suggest that 16 we turn it up, is -- was the Council meeting at Tab 18 17 of the Exhibit 219, Council Meetings, but just -- I 18 don't think you need to look at it, sir, it just -- 19 A: I would rather look at what you're 20 talking -- 21 Q: You may if you wish but just that 22 you said, I don't know where the issue of two (2) Bands 23 came from; you remember -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- that idea, right? That's all I
2091 want to deal with, sir. Now, we had some testimony at 2 this Inquiry, the very first witness was a Professor 3 Darlene Johnson who was an expert and she testified on 4 July 15, at page 110 of that transcript: 5 "I agree. By the 20th Century there 6 are two (2) separate communities and 7 in 1845 I did not see evidence of 8 that. 9 Q: Okay. So you mean by the 20th 10 Century that there were two (2) 11 separate communities? 12 A: There were two (2) separate 13 communities in terms of their Band 14 structure but not in terms of the 15 ownership of the reserves. The 16 ownership of the reserves was 17 determined by the treaty in 1827." 18 I'm just indicating to you that was in 19 evidence. And then you know that Carl Tolsma, formerly 20 known as Carl George, testified recently here, and one 21 (1) of the things he told us is that in his family 22 history he knows about a number of chiefs under the name 23 Johnson of Stoney Point Reserve, not a combined reserve 24 but of Stoney Point Reserve. 25 And then you would also be familiar,
2101 would you not, with a -- a report that was presented to 2 the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs which gave 3 some indication of two (2) Bands, in some sense. 4 So, I would suggest to you, sir, that 5 there is some suggestion of two (2) Bands or one (1) 6 Band. But, in any event, is it not true that 7 traditionally, if First Nations People want to separate 8 from one (1) Band to another Band, they -- they could do 9 so; there wasn't any restriction on people moving off to 10 another area? 11 A: You mean to leave one (1) community 12 and transfer to another? 13 Q: Yeah. Or start their own community? 14 A: I -- I don't know that -- I think 15 there has to be consultation and a determination within 16 the community for that to happen. 17 And in this case there never was any 18 consultation internally with anyone. A community 19 basically left out of this and someone made a 20 declaration and -- and decided to follow that -- that 21 course, but there was no consultation with the -- the 22 other people within the community and -- 23 Q: At one (1) point -- 24 A: -- and there needs to -- there needs 25 to be that consultation occur, and it never happened.
2111 Q: Now, at one (1) point in recent 2 history, apparently, there was a consideration of a 3 referendum on the question of whether there should be 4 one (1) or two (2) bands; is that correct? 5 A: That was rejected. 6 Q: The idea of a referendum was 7 rejected? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And -- and why was that? 10 A: Nobody asked for it. 11 Q: Nobody asked for it? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. I'm going to turn to a 14 different question if I may. We've heard the word, 15 "Locatees" used a lot and -- including by yourself. 16 Now, again we had some evidence from 17 another expert witness named Joan Holmes towards the 18 beginning of this Inquiry. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And she indicated a number of 21 problems with the question of location tickets, that 22 records were not well kept and so on. 23 And so when you say, locatees, I gather 24 you would mean anyone who can establish either by 25 location ticket or otherwise, that they had -- had a
2121 claim to a portion of the Stoney Point Reserve before 2 the appropriation; is that fair? 3 A: Back prior before I was ever 4 involved in politics, there was a locatees committee and 5 that's what they called themselves. I -- I only use 6 terminology that came from those particular people. 7 And there was a large group of them that 8 the Band did fund financially to -- to do research and 9 to pursue the return of the lands because the Band 10 always did support any attempts to have that land 11 returned. 12 And that's where that terminology popped 13 up from in the beginning was internally within that own 14 -- their own group of people you're talking about, many 15 of whom are deceased now. 16 Q: Yes. But -- but I would suggest to 17 you that it has to include not just people with location 18 tickets, but anyone who had a claim that can be verified 19 one (1) way or another to a portion of the Stoney Point 20 Reserve at the time of appropriation; is that fair? 21 A: Well, I don't know what law you're 22 using. I don't understand, I guess, what you're trying 23 to, sort of, say whether someone is related to somebody 24 who has a location ticket, whether they have a claim or 25 whether only the person whose name was on, or has the
2131 claim. I -- I'm not sure where you're going. 2 Q: Oh, sorry. Sorry. Let me be more 3 concrete. Perhaps I didn't explain it very well. 4 By locatees, you include the descendants 5 of people who had location tickets, is that right? 6 A: Well, that -- that's, I guess, what 7 I'm asking you to please tell me what you're getting at. 8 I don't understand where you're going. You're talking 9 way back prior to the government taking the land and -- 10 and now you're to today, so there's been several 11 changes -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- and land acquisitions and 14 holdings in -- in native communities. 15 Q: Yes. There are two (2) possible 16 problems and I was thinking of one (1) of them and you 17 were thinking of the other, so let me separate them and 18 explain if I may. 19 As we know, unfortunately, more than 20 sixty (60) years later, most of the people, the 21 individuals, who were forcibly removed from Stoney Point 22 Reserve are no longer with us. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so when one refers to claims to 25 Stoney Point Reserve, one is referring almost completely
2141 to the descendants, rather than to the individuals who 2 were, themselves, appropriated, right? That's what you 3 pointed out. 4 A: Well, I had a discussion with one 5 (1) of our -- our councillors and -- and he was my uncle 6 that passed away. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: He basically told me the people who 9 owned land at Stoney Point are all pretty much deceased. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And he said what we're dealing with 12 now are the heirs. He said, And there's a big 13 difference between an heir and someone who actually 14 owned that land at that time. That's what he told me 15 and that's where, I guess, my understanding's at. 16 And -- and that's why I'd like to know 17 what you mean by, "Locatee", whether they're related. I 18 mean, how far related? Those are all really grey areas 19 to me what you're bringing up because directive, you 20 know, we have a list of people who had location tickets. 21 And we done family trees and they all intersect and are 22 connected one way, shape or form within our community. 23 So, how do you divide up all these people 24 and dissect them and fit them into the pegs or positions 25 you want them to be in, is -- is, I guess, something I'm
2151 having difficulty with, where your line of questioning 2 is. 3 Q: Well, sir, how I would divide it up 4 is not relevant. I'm asking you how you would -- 5 A: Well, -- 6 Q: -- divide it up, and you -- 7 A: I -- I can't divide it up until you 8 clarify the issue with me. 9 Q: Well, sir you used the word 10 "locatee", do you not? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Henderson...? 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: There are two 14 (2) dimensions to this, Commissioner. One, the Chief 15 has already testified that the locatees committee, 16 meaning the Stoney Point locatees committee were a self- 17 defined group. 18 So we could go back and forth a lot 19 longer, while he says it's never been my job to identify 20 who the locatees were, because they were doing it 21 themselves. 22 You heard from Mr. George yesterday that 23 it was -- there were different criteria and different 24 people that applied with respect to locatees. The word 25 locatee itself is not a legal term. It's a generally
2161 used term to apply to someone who had a location ticket. 2 Now, if we are talking about getting the 3 Chief to agree as to who a locatee is for the purposes 4 of the First Nation or on behalf of the First Nation, 5 that takes us back into the question of who the locatees 6 are in relation to a locatee interest for settlement of 7 the claim. 8 Now, I haven't noticed the Commission 9 pursuing the question with any diligence of who, 10 actually, the locatees were or are or who might be in 11 their estates and if My Friend continues to pursue this, 12 we're getting there -- we're getting back into the 13 claims negotiation. 14 The Commission is not going to make any 15 ruling about bands, locatees entitlement to federal land 16 or reserve land. So, perhaps we could expedite the 17 process by moving on? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 19 you're trying to ask a question, Mr. Rosenthal. I think 20 -- and he's -- the witness is trying to understand what 21 the question is. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, there was a 23 confusion at the beginning. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But what I want to
2171 know is what he means by the word locatee -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and surely I 4 can ask him that because he's used the word in a number 5 of documents and in his testimony here. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not the 7 individuals but the -- 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: And that -- and that -- and that's 11 what I want to explore with him, what you mean, sir, 12 when you use the word locatee, and then I was going to 13 put to you something that Joan Holmes, an expert witness 14 said, and ask you to comment on that. 15 But I'm asking, not for any legal 16 definition. I'm asking, sir, when you use the word 17 locatee, what do you mean? 18 A: Like I said, it was a self-defined 19 group. I never use -- I don't know what a locatee is. 20 They called themself that when they created a committee, 21 much like Mr. Henderson just advised, that -- that -- 22 that criterion, who is in or it changed and it 23 fluctuated as time moved on. 24 You're asking me to identify a moving 25 group of people who they are and that's my
2181 understanding. They -- who -- if they identify as 2 locatees, that's their identification, it's not up to me 3 and -- and something that we've got to deal with is this 4 whole question which you're raising here at the 5 community. 6 It's not up to me to pronounce my 7 decision on that whole issue. That's got to be dealt 8 with in a community consultation. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 10 you've got as good an answer as you're going to get to 11 your question, Mr. Rosenthal. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That seems to be, 13 unfortunately, correct, Mr. Commissioner. But I'll move 14 on. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Now, your grandfather had a location 18 ticket for land at Stoney Point, right? 19 A: A long time ago, yes. 20 Q: Yes. But he didn't live at Stoney 21 Point, he lived at Kettle Point; isn't that right? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Now we've heard something about the 24 agreement in the early 1980's where some monies were 25 given to the Kettle and Stony Point Band.
2191 A: Yes. 2 Q: Would you agree that at the time, 3 there were some people -- some people who self- 4 identified as Stoney Point people, who objected to that 5 money being taken? 6 A: Well, -- 7 Q: Some significant number of people? 8 A: I don't know how many but I wish I 9 had the record of the vote to deal with your question so 10 I could answer you in a more factual fashion. 11 I wasn't on the Council then. I was not 12 approached by anyone at that time. I was -- I was a 13 kid. 14 Q: So you can answer in a more factual 15 fashion, please do so. 16 A: I can't, not now, because -- 17 Q: Oh, you can't now -- 18 A: -- you're -- 19 Q: -- I'm sorry, I missed that, sir, 20 I'm sorry. 21 A: -- you're going into specifics about 22 who objected, how many and I don't know. I don't have 23 the voters list to see who refused to vote and who made 24 a very solid political statement on it. But our records 25 indicate that almost everybody took that money who was
2201 entitled to it. 2 And that -- that would sort of, I guess, 3 in my mind, basically state that everyone who accepted 4 that money was agreeable to what happened. And that was 5 a vast majority of the membership. 6 Q: Now, you told us that some of the 7 monies were paid out to individuals? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And some was kept by the Band 10 Council? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Is that correct? And some of it is 13 still available to the Band Council for its -- its 14 current expenses? 15 A: Well, it's available to the 16 membership. 17 Q: Or to the membership. 18 A: Not just to the Band Council. 19 Q: Is -- is there a -- an accounting of 20 the monies that were given in the early '80's, an 21 account that any member of the Band can go look at and 22 see what happened to all those funds? 23 A: I think that was always a stated 24 position of the Council that they would show the books, 25 where all those monies went to if people wanted to see.
2211 It's something that we have never basically taken a 2 position we're going to keep in a secret vault and never 3 show anyone. 4 Anyone who wanted to go in was supposed 5 to go and make an appointment, meet with the finance 6 people and review the books. And that always was the 7 position and still remains to be the position of our 8 community today. 9 Q: And there is a -- somewhere a 10 document that somebody could review and see what 11 happened to all those monies? 12 A: As far as I know there is. I'm not 13 in the finance area. You know, there's a separation 14 between finance and administration. 15 Q: Well, who in the Band Council should 16 be approached if somebody wanted to get that document? 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 19 not going to do an audit here. You just want to know 20 who? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I just want to 22 know who. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Who. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Am I supposed to 25 go to 1993 and 1995?
2221 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, in -- 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Or are we 3 arguing something that's going on today? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We're arguing 5 right -- if somebody wanted a complete accounting as to 6 what happened up until a minute ago to that $2.7 7 million, where would they go? 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In that case I 9 object. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 11 I think what -- what's happening -- well, it's actually 12 continuing. Your -- your position is the money that's 13 in that account is -- I'm not sure what your position 14 is, I better not state it. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, -- 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: My Friend's 17 position is if -- if he was to go down to the Band 18 office tomorrow what could he do. What does that have 19 to do with 1993 to 1995? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 21 think your right. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I agree with Mr. 23 -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Henderson's
2231 objection. The -- the Chief has answered the question. 2 Mr. Rosenthal seeks to ask a question about today about 3 monies and -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's got 5 nothing-- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it's just not 7 appropriate at -- with respect Commissioner. And the 8 Chief has given some evidence in context and My Friend 9 can ask him, as he has, questions about that. But this 10 is an entirely different issue -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- that -- and today, 13 and frankly it's not relevant. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 16 I'd like one quick reply. All I asked was, was there an 17 accounting of those funds and he said yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In 1995 -- 19 or in 1980. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: From -- from the 21 1980's -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1980. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- to now. And it 24 -- and it lapsed -- it's for both before and after and 25 does affect the whole situation here. It's part of the
2241 history and it's part of the present day. But I just 2 asked if there was such a document and he said yes. 3 And I asked him where would you go, he 4 said he's not the finance officer. So, I just asked who 5 is -- who would you go to. And I -- I don't think that 6 was unreasonable. And if he can answer, he should 7 answer, if he can't, he can't. 8 But my clients are interested in that 9 question and I think it's a reasonable question on 10 behalf of members of the Band. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Can I respond to 12 you because -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You should wait -- 14 wait for the Commissioner's ruling with respect to --- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 16 think asking him who is the person to ask is an 17 unreasonable question. That's all at that point. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That's all I 19 asked, sir, and it -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 21 think that's an unreasonable question. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- resulted in 23 this objection, sir. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: If I might have 25 a word with my client?
2251 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 2 We're not going to go into it in any detail. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no. I just -- 4 just -- he told us he doesn't know any more, but he's 5 not the financial officer, somebody else is maybe, I 6 just asked him who to ask, that's all, and then I would 7 move on upon getting the answer to that question. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't know 12 why Mr. Henderson is discussing whatever he is with him 13 but, in any event -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- it seems a 16 simple question as to who -- he -- he told us these 17 records are available, not to him, he's not the 18 financial officer. He's the Chief, he know who 19 presumably, and who. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 21 asking 22 him who. And you have an objection to that question? 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? Then 25 let's move on.
2261 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Mr. Rosenthal 2 expressed some curiosity, I've advised the Witness not 3 to answer the question. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I would 5 respectfully request, Mr. Commissioner, that you advise 6 the Witness to answer the question and your advice 7 should be more compelling. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 9 Is there a person who has this information in the Band 10 Office? 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I can assist you 12 there, sir. When we applied for standing we provided 13 you with a copy of the -- for the purposes of standing 14 alone, a copy of the audited statements of the Band. 15 The audited statements of the Band show what funds are 16 there and how they change from year to year. They are 17 not secret. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Right? In terms 20 of, you know, scoring points about, I would like to find 21 out something tomorrow, you know, this -- this 22 Commission is not for that purpose. There is a 23 historical dimension to this Commission, right? There 24 is an Act, a deadly Act that was in question and this 25 has nothing to do with that.
2271 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 2 information is available. You're saying it's in your -- 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm saying the 4 audited statements are available and the audited 5 statements show those funds. The Commission actually 6 has a copy if you wish to satisfy yourself and we can 7 return to it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: But, you know, 10 the Commission -- this Commission of Inquiry is not 11 about how the Band Office operates today. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 13 understand. 14 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And I will 15 continue to object if that's where we appear to be 16 going. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That isn't 18 where we're going. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I agree 21 with you, we shouldn't go there. I didn't think asking 22 a question of who had the information would be 23 objectionable, but if it is -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, sir, I 25 didn't hear what you just said.
2281 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 2 think that asking who had the information would be 3 objectionable. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I didn't either, 5 sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I can restate 8 the objection that it's an improper question. We're not 9 here to deal with the -- with the Band finances or other 10 mechanisms available to Mr. Rosenthal and Mr. 11 Rosenthal's clients -- they can -- to deal with these 12 issues and not this Inquiry. 13 If he -- if he wants to go to the -- the 14 -- the Band Office is -- is just ten (10) kilometres 15 away. He can go to the Band Office and make a request. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you're 17 saying that the information, the audited statement, is 18 available and it has these funds in the audited 19 statement? Are these funds -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't know if 21 it has it or not -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 23 that's what Mr. Henderson has said. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I already said 25 that, sir.
2291 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he's 2 already said that, so you can get your answer some other 3 way. You don't have to get it through this Commission. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'll move on, Mr. 5 Commissioner. I must say I don't understand what's 6 happened -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- in the last ten 9 (10) minutes, but I'll move on to something else. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's your 11 ten (10) minutes. You've used up ten (10) minutes of 12 your time. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no, Mr. 14 Henderson. Mr. Millar...? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 16 share it, spread it around? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Usually I'm more productive in my 20 questions than I was in the last ten (10) minutes. 21 Now, you mentioned something about the 22 funeral of Dan George, Sr. in 1990. Now, in fact sir, 23 is it not the case that the arrangements to allow him to 24 be buried at Stoney Point were made by his son, Graham 25 George and other members of his family and DND just
2301 consulted with you afterwards? Is that not true, sir? 2 A: I -- I told you, we supported a 3 request that was put forward. We were asked by the 4 Department of National Defence whether we supported that 5 and we told them, yes. If -- I suppose if we said no, 6 they might have said, no. I don't know, I'm -- I -- I 7 can only tell you my recollection of what occurred at 8 that time. 9 Q: And you didn't attend that funeral, 10 did you, sir? 11 A: I'm really not sure. 12 Q: Well, it was a rather momentous 13 event, I gather, from other witnesses and a very large 14 number of people there, the first return to Stoney Point 15 Reserve by a mass of First Nations People since 1942. 16 If you attended, you would have 17 remembered, would you not, sir? 18 A: Do you know how many funerals I've 19 attended in -- in my life? 20 Q: Well, I would suggest to you for the 21 reasons that I indicated, sir, this was a rather unusual 22 funeral. 23 A: Put me in a time machine and take me 24 back and I'll answer you, but I -- I really don't 25 recall. I don't know, my -- my wife would probably know
2311 better than me. 2 Q: It's okay. 3 A: She keeps track of me more than I 4 keep track of myself. 5 Q: Now, sir, in addition to there being 6 divisions between Kettle and Stoney Point people, one 7 gathers hearing the evidence from you and other 8 witnesses that, as in most communities, there were 9 political differences in the sense that some people 10 believed in a more activist approach such as leafleting 11 and demonstrating and marching and, ultimately, seizing 12 the land. 13 Whereas other people, such as yourself, 14 believed more in negotiation and so on; is that fair to 15 say? 16 A: Well, I think I made it clear that, 17 you know, these things and approaches, when life is lost 18 aren't worth doing. And that -- that's the way I feel 19 about them. Things, basically, somebody lost their life 20 here and that's why I don't support these kind of 21 things. 22 Q: Sir, I would put it to you that well 23 before Mr. Dudley George lost his life, you indicated to 24 your lack of support for -- for the more active forms of 25 trying to get the land returned; right?
2321 A: Well, I -- you know, I believe my 2 conversations with the government were -- it would be 3 hard to resolve if occupations went on and -- and 4 earlier on you asked me about going back onto the land 5 when there's unexploded ordinances and health and safety 6 concerns for our members. 7 Basically, or my concern, I think, I'm 8 more interested in life and -- and keeping life intact 9 and sending our people to go and live on an area where 10 children may be playing and if we take them down there 11 and something happens to them, who do we have to look 12 to, to hold responsible? Ourselves or -- or the 13 government at that point when there's warning signs 14 posted all over? 15 Q: Sir, if you could please turn to Tab 16 5 of the book of documents that you have, not the 17 Council minutes, but the other book of your documents. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: The book of documents prepared by 22 the Inquiry for your use at this Inquiry. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2331 Q: At Tab 5 you have a document Number 2 1007626 for Volume V of the CDs and it's an article from 3 the London Free Press entitled, "Ipperwash Occupation 4 not supported by Band." 5 And this article's from May of 1993 -- 6 May 11, 1993 and it begins, sir, with two (2) paragraphs 7 that mention your name: 8 "Chief Tom Bressette and the Council 9 of the Kettle and Stony Point Indian 10 Band have publicly dissociated 11 themselves from the occupation of part 12 of Canadian Forces Camp Ipperwash. 13 Bressette says he does not sanction 14 the land grab and is satisfied 15 negotiations with the Federal 16 Government over the return of the 17 disputed land currently occupied by 18 the base are progressing." 19 That's an accurate report of your view as 20 you expressed to the media on that occasion, sir? 21 A: I didn't write this, so I'm not 22 going to accept ownership of something I didn't write. 23 Q: I see. Did you express those 24 sentiments to the media or no? 25 A: Maybe not in that direct fashion the
2341 way he wrote them. 2 Q: I see. What would you have 3 expressed to the media that would have led to -- 4 A: Well, we don't -- we don't support 5 the occupation is generally what was stated. 6 Q: And did you call it a, "land grab"? 7 A: Never said a land grab. 8 Q: You wouldn't have said a land grab? 9 A: No. I mean, the -- maybe that's 10 what a -- a reporter would have characterized it as. In 11 our minds, we were still trying to negotiate for the 12 return of that land. 13 And I might remind you that this has gone 14 on since they took the land, so it's not like this just 15 jumped out and happened. If the previous chiefs and 16 councils had sanctioned doing this, we probably would 17 have as well, but that was always the position. They 18 didn't choose to go down and take this road of action 19 and they waited a lot longer than we have been waiting. 20 Q: Now, sir, if you could turn to Tab 21 6, in that brief, which contains Document Number 1008106 22 from Volume V of the CDs. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Exhibit 235. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, thank you Mr. 25 Millar. Exhibit P-235?
2351 2 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: Now this appears to be an e-mail to 4 a Ron Baldwin from a Terry Humberstone, MNR Native 5 Liaison Specialist. And it reports some actions about 6 you, and, again, I would ask you, sir, if it's an 7 accurate report with respect to you. It says, about 8 four (4) lines down from the first paragraph: 9 "Chief Bressette stated that their 10 First Nation does not recognize Stoney 11 Point as an official First Nation. 12 Further, they do not condone the 13 actions of Maynard George and his 14 group and that we, MNR, should be 15 taking this up with the Government of 16 Canada re the legality of Maynard 17 George's actions re his claim to 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park." 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, 20 Commissioner, I might just rise. Mr. Rosenthal wasn't 21 here yesterday but we went through this whole document 22 and my -- and the witness answered questions about this 23 document. And I don't -- and it's -- frankly he, as I 24 recall, yesterday said that he accepted that it was an 25 accurate -- it accurately stated what he -- the meeting,
2361 as far as I can recall. 2 And I don't want -- if Mr. Rosenthal has 3 a question that -- different than the questions that 4 were asked yesterday by me on this document, which is 5 the identical question I asked yesterday, then I invite 6 him to do so. But particularly given the shortage of 7 time we have, I -- I would ask that he not ask the same 8 question I asked yesterday. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Millar, that 10 was just a preamble to the -- to my question. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: So, you do acknowledge that that was 14 an accurate reflection of your -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- comments? And so you were 17 informing government here that you do not support the 18 actions of Maynard George and his group; right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And this is one of several examples, 21 and we'll turn to maybe a few of the others perhaps, but 22 throughout the period from 1993 to 1995 you informed 23 many government officials to that effect; is that 24 correct? 25 A: Well, we were asked about it and no
2371 one consulted with the membership, no referendum for 2 separation occurred, none of the rules that were set up 3 to deal with this were ever followed, so how could I? 4 My -- our community members didn't accept that nor do 5 they accept it today. 6 Q: And you advocated that government 7 used force to remove the Stoney Point people who had 8 reclaimed the land; is that correct? 9 A: I advocated they have the 10 responsibility and jurisdiction and that they should 11 deal with it. And back in 1996 or '97 there was an 12 occupation of our office. 13 We used a Court injunction, we used 14 Native police officers, and there was no bloodshed in 15 that -- in that matter. Basically, things were handled 16 differently. And how the OPP chose to deal with this 17 was their business, not mine. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: And -- 20 Q: It was there -- 21 A: -- that's -- 22 Q: -- sorry. Sorry. It was their 23 business as to how to do it, but you advocated that they 24 should forcibly remove the people? 25 A: Well, we forcibly removed them from
2381 our office, we never used violence to do it. 2 Q: Now, sir, you told Mr. Millar this 3 morning when he was asking you about the question of 4 welfare, whether welfare could be received by people 5 living at Stoney Point without it going through your 6 Band Council, you told Mr. Millar: 7 "We did not intend to use welfare as 8 a lever against people living at 9 Stoney Point." 10 Do you recall your evidence, sir? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: But I should request that you turn 13 to what has been made Exhibit P-238, it is Tab 10 of the 14 document brief you have, which is from Volume 1, 15 Document Number 1002054, and it's your letter to the 16 Honourable Bob Rae, at the time Premier of Ontario, on 17 June 9th, 1993. 18 A: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Rosenthal, just before you continue, I just want to 21 know, have you had an opportunity to review the 22 transcript -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of 25 questions yesterday?
2391 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because 3 this was gone into -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 6 fine. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- but not the 8 point that I'm making and with respect I did review the 9 transcript for this. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 11 fine. Then I just -- as long as you are of a different 12 reason for asking the question or a different take on 13 the question, that's fine. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I do. I do and 15 I'll just tell you, frankly, the reason, sir. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: I would suggest to you that the last 19 complete paragraph on this document indicates that you 20 were using welfare as a lever contrary to what you told 21 Mr. Millar, where you write -- it's not -- you told us 22 that it was just a question of the way the welfare 23 should be managed and so on, but why, then, when you 24 write to Premier Rae do you say on this issue: 25 "Our point is that the occupation of
2401 Camp Ipperwash has not been sanctioned 2 by the elected Chief and Council and 3 that the people who are occupying Camp 4 Ipperwash are now suggesting 5 confrontation methods. It gravely 6 concerns me that things might get out 7 of hand. 8 If your government continues to 9 provide services which already exist 10 at the Band level, you will only 11 perpetuate the internal dispute that 12 we are trying to resolve at present." 13 Isn't that saying you must not give them 14 welfare directly because -- 15 A: That's not what -- that's your 16 interpretation -- 17 Q: But -- 18 A: -- and you can -- 19 Q: What's your interpretation, sir, you 20 wrote it? 21 A: My interpretation was this issue 22 came from my welfare administrator and there were 23 confrontations verbally about us withholding services 24 and we were trying to rectify that. There were several 25 other documents that support that same position that
2411 we've taken. 2 We were asking the government to allow us 3 to provide that service so people wouldn't have to go to 4 Wyoming. So, if you want to draw that conclusion, 5 you're quite welcome to it, but that's not what was 6 intended at the Band level. 7 A: You told us, sir, in your evidence 8 today, discussing the meeting of August 1st, 1995, that 9 some people were concerned about outsiders controlling 10 access to the Camp and so on; do you recall that 11 evidence, sir? 12 A: That was in a general Band meeting. 13 Q: Yes. And you indicated the reason 14 was, that there was concern about having another Oka? 15 A: Yes, and that was stated in the 16 meeting as well. 17 Q: Yes. Now, sir, were you not aware 18 that a year before that there had been a burying the 19 hatchet ceremony at which the people occupying Camp 20 Ipperwash had committed themselves to peaceful means in 21 reclaiming their land? 22 A: I wasn't aware, no, I wasn't invited 23 to attend any ceremony like that. 24 Q: And you weren't aware that it had 25 occurred?
2421 A: I didn't know the meaning of it. 2 Q: And you didn't know the meaning of 3 it? 4 A: No, nobody informed me of the 5 meeting of that particular whatever it was that 6 occurred. 7 Q: Again, it's my understanding from 8 the evidence given here that it was a rather large 9 gathering and you didn't hear about the gathering taking 10 place, the burying the hatchet ceremony? 11 A: I heard there was a -- a meeting, 12 but I didn't -- I wasn't -- nobody explicitly said, this 13 is what is signifies to me. 14 Q: Well, did you not become aware, well 15 before August 1st, 1995, that the people who were 16 reclaiming the Stoney Point lands had committed 17 themselves to peaceful means in doing so? 18 A: I -- I don't know anything about 19 anything you're discussing with me. 20 Q: I see. And you told us this morning 21 that in the course of -- I believe you were referring to 22 September 1995 -- in particular early September 1995 -- 23 you received all sorts of calls from Member of the 24 Provincial Legislature Beaubien; do you recall your 25 evidence, sir?
2431 A: Yeah. 2 Q: What was Mr. Beaubien phoning you 3 about during that time period? 4 A: Well, Mr. Beaubien was trying to 5 convince me to go down there and ask these people to -- 6 to leave the Park. 7 Q: I see. So, and this became -- 8 A: And -- and I kept telling him I'm -- 9 I'm not -- they're not communicating with me. 10 Q: So, this was beginning, then, on 11 September 4th after the people moved down into the Park? 12 A: Well, that's what his concern was, 13 it was about the Park. As long as people were occupying 14 the -- the Army Base, nobody had any issue with that, 15 but when it went into the Provincial territories, I 16 guess, what they consider to be theirs. That's when it 17 became a concern for the -- the Member of the Provincial 18 Parliament. It was a federal member who was calling 19 before that about what was happening. 20 Q: So, the first call from Mr. Beaubien 21 would have been on September 4th, then, would it, sir? 22 A: I'm not sure when the first call -- 23 I -- I don't keep a log book or chronology. All I know 24 is what has been presented to me here. 25 Q: But the calls that you were
2441 referring to were with respect to the people being in 2 the Park as opposed to the Camp; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And we know that they did not enter 5 the Park until September 4th. So it's fair to conclude 6 that those calls must have started on or after September 7 4th; right? 8 A: You can conclude what you want. I 9 don't have a clear recollection of when the call came or 10 -- or was made or anything like that. 11 Q: Now, there were a number of such 12 calls you indicated? 13 A: Well, he did call a couple of times 14 and I told him what I told him, and that was the end of 15 that. And he called back again and that's how that -- 16 that dialogue started. 17 Q: And so he asked you to try to 18 convince the people to leave the Park. And you told him 19 you -- you're not in a position to do that? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And did he indicate to you anything 22 about his making requests of other people such as the 23 OPP or the Provincial Government to get the people out 24 of the Park? 25 A: I'm not sure whether he indicated
2451 the Provincial Government. 2 Q: But he did indicate the OPP? 3 A: Well, I think he said that what 4 should -- what should occur down there, and I told him 5 it's not in my jurisdiction. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: So, if it's not my jurisdiction what 8 can I do about it? 9 Q: And then what did he say he would do 10 about it since you were not willing to do it? 11 A: Well, he said that it was going to 12 be an impact on -- on the area and that he was concerned 13 about the tourism. And there were quite a large number 14 of calls coming from people along that particular 15 stretch of road, their businesses down in that area, the 16 -- the West Ipperwash -- the Centre Ipperwash Road area 17 where they were concerned about their businesses. 18 And there were a number of people who 19 were very persistent on this matter. They lived, I 20 don't know, I guess, just to the -- directly west of -- 21 of the Provincial Park, they were very concerned and 22 they were calling him quite regular. And so he was 23 calling me thinking I could go down there and say, you 24 know, Don't bother these folks. I had no ability to do 25 anything about what was happening there.
2461 And that's the other reason I -- I told 2 him I don't support what's going on, is I can't accept 3 responsibility for something I didn't sanction. And he 4 was trying to impress on me that it was my 5 responsibility. And -- and being put in that position, 6 it's -- it's a strange circumstance where someone thinks 7 that you directed this to happen and they keep calling 8 you. 9 How do you deal with that? Do you say, 10 Oh yeah we sanctioned that, keep calling. We didn't 11 want anybody coming to us because it wasn't something 12 that we -- we supported. 13 Q: Now, in a different area. You told 14 us today that you didn't want your Officer Kaczanowski 15 to be involved with the OPP on the evening of September 16 6th because you didn't want an implication that your 17 officers had been involved in the operation that had led 18 to the death of Dudley George; is that a fair summary? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Well, in the -- in the morning of 23 September 7th. But you didn't want -- around that time, 24 after Dudley George was killed, you didn't want your 25 officers involved with the OPP in the immediate
2471 aftermath of that because you didn't want an implication 2 that your officers had been involved in the assault that 3 led to the death of Dudley George; right? 4 A: Didn't I already answer that? 5 Q: Yes. No, I -- I'm just setting a 6 framework for another question. You did say that this 7 morning; right? Now, sir, you also told Mr. Millar that 8 had the Kettle Point police been doing the operation 9 they would have done differently. Do you recall your 10 evidence in that respect? 11 A: I think I said we have members in 12 the OPP from our community -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- and if they were involved it 15 might -- things might have been handled differently 16 because they knew the people there, not like bringing 17 outsiders in. I thought that's what I said and -- 18 Q: In any event, we had evidence from 19 Miles Bressette at this Inquiry -- 20 A: Well, -- 21 Q: -- and he told us that in his view 22 you would not have allowed the Kettle Point police 23 officers, of which he was one, to assist in dealing with 24 the occupation of the Park -- 25 A: Well, --
2481 Q: -- was he correct in that respect? 2 A: Well, he was the Chief of Police and 3 he never made such a request to the Council or myself. 4 Q: If he had -- 5 A: He -- he -- he should have had a 6 written record if he did and can -- can state that 7 that's our position because that was never brought to 8 our attention at Council that he wanted to go down there 9 and do that. 10 Q: I'm -- I'm just asking you, sir, is 11 that -- was that your position? Would that have been 12 your position? 13 A: It wasn't our position because we 14 weren't asked. 15 Q: You weren't asked and if you had 16 been asked, it's your view you would have allowed them 17 to participate? 18 A: I think so, but it never was asked, 19 so all they were asking me to do is -- something that 20 didn't occur respond to, you know? 21 Q: Do you still have in front of your 22 or nearby, the transcript of several phone calls that 23 was referred to before? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Is it --
2491 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-249. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: P-249. That's Exhibit P-249 to the 5 Proceedings. And the -- the first phone call 6 transcribed on that exhibit is the one of September 5th, 7 1995 between you and Inspector Carson. I should like to 8 turn to page 2 of the transcript and ask you about a 9 couple of matters there. 10 If you look in the middle of page 2, 11 that's -- you are quoted as saying: 12 "And that's where all of these things 13 come from. There's a bunch of whackos 14 running around loose and whatever 15 those people hear from one (1) person, 16 they believe it to be the gospel 17 truth." 18 A: No. 19 Q: And you appear to be referring to 20 the people who are reclaiming the Park as "whackos". 21 A: No, I'm not. 22 Q: You're not? I see. Who do you mean 23 to refer to? 24 A: I was approached by some of these 25 people who basically were making comments to me that we
2501 owned all of Canada and that all of the money in Canada 2 was paid to Indian Affairs. And then Indian Affairs 3 paid it to the other governments because that's what 4 they had to do. 5 And I mean, if I believed that, I'd -- 6 I'd take over the whole country, not just a little piece 7 of land. And there other people suggesting to us and we 8 did pursue several of them that there was buried very 9 toxic substances. We made it insistent that the 10 government go and deal with it. They went in and done a 11 sweep in the area where they identified and there was 12 nothing found there. 13 So, there were a large number of people 14 making comments around the area and people were thinking 15 that was true because these people were saying it. 16 That's what I was referring to. 17 Q: You weren't referring to the people 18 that were in the Park? 19 A: No. No, so you read a lot into what 20 -- a conversation you weren't -- you weren't privy to. 21 You didn't ask me about that, you just assumed that. 22 Q: What -- what would you have expected 23 Inspector Carson would have assumed when you said, in 24 discussing the situation in the Park, There's a bunch of 25 whackos running around loose?
2511 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: What did you 3 intend to convey to Inspector Carson? 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Henderson? 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't think 8 the Witness can testify as to Inspector Carson's 9 understanding. He intended to say what he said. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I asked what 11 did you intend to convey to Inspector Carson? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 13 think he explained what he meant by it. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, but what did 15 he intend to convey to Inspector Carson, I think, is a 16 fair question in the circumstances of Inspector Carson 17 speaking to him, Mr. Commissioner, about what's going on 18 in the Park and he says, There's a bunch of whackos 19 running around loose. What did expect and intend to 20 convey to Inspector Carson? 21 THE WITNESS: You know, do you want me 22 to say something? Tell me what you want me to say 23 because I'm trying to answer you and you're trying to 24 put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head that I 25 don't have.
2521 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 2 him what he meant by that phrase and he answered it. He 3 was talking to Carson -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so, I 6 take it that he intended to convey what he said and what 7 he meant. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, but -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 10 he said. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- but perhaps I 12 could rephrase the question, Mr. Commissioner, if I may. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: I would put it to you, sir, that you 17 knew when you said that, that Inspector Carson would 18 understand that you were referring to the people in the 19 Park. 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: Whatever you might have meant. 22 A: I don't think so. 23 Q: You don't think so? Okay, thank 24 you. 25 A: No.
2531 Q: And then a couple of lines down 2 below you say: 3 "And I don't know. I think you're 4 going to continue to have problems 5 with that group until somebody 6 enforces a law against them." 7 And what did you mean to convey to 8 Inspector Carson about that? 9 A: Well, -- 10 Q: With that remark? 11 A: That remark was the same remark I 12 made to you about the process that we used, getting a 13 Court injunction, using our officers and -- and having 14 people removed. 15 And that worked with us, so why couldn't 16 he do the same? That was his jurisdiction not mine, so, 17 I mean, what do you want me to do? The guy kept calling 18 and asking, How do we deal with the situation? 19 I wasn't there, I didn't have a line of 20 communication. People weren't talking to me. What do 21 you want me to say? 22 Q: So when you said "enforces a law 23 against them" you meant, for example, the possibility of 24 getting an injunction to get -- 25 A: Yes.
2541 Q: -- people out of the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: But the "them" that's referred to 4 there, is the people in the Park, is it not? 5 A: Well, yes, who else would it be 6 referring to? 7 Q: I can't imagine anyone else, sir, 8 but I just need -- 9 A: I'm -- 10 Q: -- your evidence as to what you 11 meant. 12 A: I'm glad you're having as much a 13 difficulty as I am in answering your questions. 14 Q: Now, towards the end of the next 15 longer paragraph, Inspector Carson says: 16 "We're going to try and control the 17 access to the Park in the short term 18 and they're going to have the 19 opportunity to leave but they are 20 going to be dealt with as 21 trespassers." 22 And then you respond: 23 "Well, to be honest with you, John, 24 the councillors here are tired of 25 those folks there."
2551 Do you see that, sir? Towards the bottom 2 of -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- page 2? Now, "the folks there" 5 you're referring to are the people who have reclaimed 6 the Park, is that correct? 7 A: I think, you know, in a general Band 8 meeting, we were told to deal with our responsibility. 9 We wrote a letter, we said, We're not asking our people 10 to leave the area. We're asking the other people who 11 aren't from here to leave the area. And that didn't 12 happen. 13 And those are the people that we were, 14 sort of, getting annoyed with because all our efforts 15 and I think there's a lot of it that's been demonstrated 16 in the information that's been provided here, we're 17 trying to build some way to bring people together. 18 And we believe that these people were 19 there were trying to do the different approaches to keep 20 things going the way they were. And eventually what 21 would happen is what occurred, somebody got hurt and 22 somebody got killed. 23 And how do you fix that once that's been 24 the cause? 25 Q: Now, sir, you understood, though,
2561 when Inspector Carson was speaking to you in the 2 previous sentence that I read to you, and saying 3 "they're going to be dealt with as trespassers", he 4 meant the people in the Park, right? 5 A: I would assume so, that's -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- what he said. 8 Q: And so your response, "tired of 9 those folks there" meant those same people, the people 10 in the Park. 11 A: Well, it was like I said. We 12 believed there were people there who were certainly 13 bringing on agitation to the situation because we were 14 trying to build a way to approach this and deal with 15 things and we weren't being met with the same kind of 16 response. 17 And, you know, basically what we were 18 doing was being called regularly. And all of our time 19 and efforts in the community were being spent dealing 20 with this and we didn't even sanction it. 21 Q: Now, sir, if you could turn to page 22 4 of that same transcript document, please? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2571 Q: About the middle of the page, 2 attributed to you is the statement: 3 "Yeah, well, I don't think we have any 4 concerns. We -- I don't know, as far 5 as I'm concerned myself, I think those 6 people would have to be dealt with 7 somehow." 8 And Inspector Carson answers: 9 "Well, I agree, and we have to do it 10 the best we can." 11 And you say: 12 "Treating them with kid gloves isn't 13 something. I don't think that they 14 understand." 15 Now that's, perhaps, slightly 16 inaccurately transcribed. What you were telling 17 Inspector Carson was he shouldn't treat them with kid 18 gloves, he should treat them forcibly. 19 Isn't that what you were saying to 20 Inspector Carson? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Well, what were you saying? 23 A: They never used the Court injunction 24 process, never once. They always danced around the 25 issue and they never went to it and that's the proper
2581 procedures. 2 Q: What did you mean by the sentence, 3 "Treating them with kid gloves isn't something"? 4 A: Well, as far as we could see and -- 5 and my -- my own observations were, they were trying to, 6 I guess, encourage people just to -- to walk out and 7 leave the area. 8 And this thing started back when Maynard 9 got involved and basically started stirring up problems. 10 And -- and his -- and way of dealing with things was to 11 push it as hard as he could, get as much media attention 12 as he could, and make everybody look bad. 13 And the intention there in what I stated 14 was you should use the Court process. How many times 15 can I keep saying the same thing, what I meant. 16 Q: That's what you meant by kid gloves? 17 A: Do it, don't just keep talking, 18 essentially. 19 Q: Now, yesterday Mr. Millar asked you 20 about a document, which again I don't think we have to 21 turn to because I just want to ask you a question that 22 arose from it, which was talking about the possibility 23 of lands in the Sudbury area, at Burwash, but then 24 quoted you as saying something to the effect of, well 25 exactly:
2591 "He seems to feel that if the Band is 2 slipt he wants the Georges as far away 3 as possible." 4 And then what you explained -- 5 A: Did -- did I say that? 6 Q: Well, that was the -- 7 A: Did -- did I say that? 8 Q: Excuse me a second, I'll finish, if 9 I may. That's what the -- the document that Mr. Millar 10 read to you said and that -- so it said that: 11 "He" -- referring to you -- "seems to 12 feel that if the Band is split he 13 wants the Georges as far away as 14 possible." 15 What you answered -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do 17 you want to let him finish the question -- 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- perfectly 19 entitled to ask whether or not he authored that document 20 if he's not being turned to it. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He can turn to it 22 if he wishes. I -- I was going to come to his answer, 23 Mr. -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry-- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Commissioner, I
2601 should be able to finish the question and I won't -- and 2 please don't answer the question until your counsel has 3 the time to object. That's why Mr. Henderson rose so 4 quickly, and I haven't come to my question yet. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You haven't 6 come to your question, finish the question. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: What you -- upon -- I'm just setting 10 the stage, if I may, for a question. And I will give 11 Mr. Henderson all the opportunity he wishes to object to 12 it. Now, what you answered was: 13 "I think what is referred to here, I 14 told him that Maynard T. George wanted 15 to -- was interested in the land and 16 if he wanted to." 17 So, do you remember an answer to that 18 effect, sir? 19 A: Yeah. And he is the only one who 20 expressed the interest in that land. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You haven't 22 asked a question yet. So -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- go 25 ahead.
2611 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ask the 3 question. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- with Mr. 5 Henderson's permission, may I ask the question or is 6 there an objection? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ask the 8 question, Mr. Rosenthal. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I -- just 10 setting the stage. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Now, the question I want to ask you, 14 sir, is, is it reasonable for you to explain that by 15 saying you were referring only to Maynard T. George, 16 that he -- 17 A: It is because -- 18 Q: Did I ask the question? I put it to 19 you, sir, you would not tell anybody that a whole 20 reserve should be located in Sudbury because of one (1) 21 individual and that it's much more likely that the 22 reference to Georges refers to a number of people if you 23 indicated that that would be one (1) benefit of having 24 the reserve so far away as Sudbury; I put that question 25 to you, sir?
2621 A: I'm related to a lot of Georges. 2 They're my first cousins, I wouldn't say, send them 3 away, I wouldn't say, put them away. But Maynard was 4 the one that expressed interest in dealing with -- with 5 what you keep referring to as what I said and what I 6 meant. And I told him, If you could get Maynard far 7 away from here as possible go ahead, give him what he 8 wants, let him go up there. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: That comment wasn't intended for 11 anybody. And if the writer of that document wants to 12 categorize something I told him that way, that's his 13 pleasure. But that's exactly what I meant, it was for 14 Mr. Maynard T. George, now King Maynard T. George as he 15 likes to be called. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Next 17 question, Mr. Rosenthal. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now -- can I move 19 on, if I may? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Now, Mr. Millar referred you to part 24 of a document and I want to refer you to another part of 25 the document as well as the same part, about your
2631 conversations with Inspector Linton. So, the document, 2 I don't believe it was made an exhibit but I might of 3 missed it, is at Tab 24 of your book of documents and 4 it's in Volume 10 of the CDs Document Number 2000540. 5 And the pages are not numbered and Mr. 6 Millar described in what way, that if you count both 7 sides of a page as a page, then one (1), two (2), three 8 (3), four (4), the bottom of page 4 is something 9 attributed to you. 10 The very last paragraph beginning on that 11 page begins with the word, "Friday;" do you have that, 12 sir? "Friday, August 4th?" 13 A: This is Mr. Linton's document. 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: This is Mr. Linton's document. He 16 authored it. It wasn't -- 17 Q: Yes. I appreciate that, sir. And 18 he may or may not be accurate in what he reports about 19 you, and I'm going to ask you if he's accurate, and I'm 20 going to ask what is meant by it. Now, so -- but do you 21 have the passage, sir? 22 At the bottom of the fourth page, it's -- 23 it's the backside of the second page, if you count them 24 the way Mr. Millar did, and it's the -- the last 25 sentence on that page, it begins "Friday;" do you have
2641 it, sir? "Friday, August 4th?" 2 A: Yes. Okay. 3 Q: And then it continues on the next 4 page. So it reads: 5 "Friday, August 4th, Staff Sergeant 6 Bouwman advised me of a meeting with 7 Captain Doug Smith who briefed him on 8 a meeting with Chief Tom Bressette 9 which took place on August 3rd." 10 So that allegedly was August 3rd, 1995, I 11 presume, that they're reporting on what you allegedly 12 said. And then it continues: 13 "Chief Bressette said he believed 14 there are high-powered weapons on the 15 Base, such as AK-47's. This was not 16 confirmed although gunshots have been 17 heard. He felt the Natives have cut 18 trees near the lake and may be 19 building a fortress." 20 Now, did you tell Officer -- sorry, 21 Officer Bouwman or any OPP officer that you believed 22 that there were high-powered weapons such as AK-47's on 23 the Base? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You never told any officer that,
2651 sir? 2 A: I -- I told them I got calls from 3 people living on our community, they're not -- I guess 4 they are Band members through marriage, but they said 5 that they were down in the area and they observed 6 somebody dressed up like Rambo carrying Military 7 weapons. And that's the only thing I ever conveyed to 8 anybody, is what was told to me. 9 Q: So you told OPP officers that 10 somebody was dressed up like Rambo -- 11 A: No, I didn't say -- I didn't say I 12 said it. 13 Q: No, you said that you learned -- 14 A: I said someone called the office and 15 made that statement. That's all I said. I never -- I 16 never attributed it to being fact or anything, I just 17 said, This is what was told to me. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And if this is a fourth-party 20 version of -- of some comment, as you can see, and how 21 many people it passed through. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Chief Bressette 25 has made the point. Mr. Rosenthal said, You had told an
2661 OPP, this note says: 2 "Sergeant Bouwman advised me" -- 3 that's Linton -- "of a meeting with 4 Captain Doug Smith." 5 Who briefed him on a meeting with Chief 6 Tom Bressette. Captain Doug Smith was a member of the 7 Canadian Forces, not the OPP. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 9 Millar, I was not aware of that. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: So, did you tell -- thank you -- 13 did you tell a Military Officer -- 14 A: I believe I already answered your 15 question. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No. Well, I -- as 17 Mr. Millar kindly points out, I didn't ask the question 18 as accurately as I should have. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I think 20 the answer is there. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Do you know a Captain Doug Smith? 24 A: I -- I still answered your question. 25 Q: Still the same answer, okay.
2671 A: I don't -- what do you want me to 2 do? Say I jumped from this guy to that guy -- 3 Q: I just want you to tell the truth, 4 sir -- 5 A: -- fourth party -- 6 Q: -- nothing else, sir. So, what you 7 told me in answer is that you -- you would have reported 8 that you had had reported to you, not that you had seen 9 but that you -- someone had told you there was somebody 10 wearing Rambo-type clothing and carrying Military 11 weapons? 12 A: Well, that's what the person said. 13 I don't know what -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- Rambo is. That's what they said. 16 I don't know what they mean, whether it's the black- 17 straight-muscle-shirt Rambo, whether it's the camouflage 18 Rambo or the straight-olive-drab Rambo. I don't know 19 where you're going with this but I just related to him 20 what somebody had told me. I -- 21 Q: I appreciate that, sir -- 22 A: -- that's all I can say and you're-- 23 Q: -- and I'm just trying to find out-- 24 A: -- you're basically asking me did I 25 say this, I reported him I got a call and he was the guy
2681 that was going in in order there, and that's the reason 2 why I talked to him. And he came to see me. 3 Q: Was that Captain Doug Smith? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I see. 6 A: He's a Military -- 7 Q: And you know who he is then, Captain 8 Doug Smith? 9 A: He's a Military man. I don't know 10 who he is, I just know he was at that time responsible 11 for dealing with that. 12 Q: And did you report to him that you 13 had gotten some information to suggest -- 14 A: I only told him a phone call came in 15 and that's what was said, that's all. I don't have any 16 other thing to add to that. 17 Q: I appreciate that, sir. I'm going 18 on, if I may. And did you also indicate to him you had 19 some information that there might be a fortress being 20 built on the Camp premises? 21 A: Well, I -- I told him there was 22 rumours around that this is happening. I didn't tell 23 him I knew this was happening and -- 24 Q: No. 25 A: -- you keep suggesting that I went
2691 down and seen this and reported it to him. 2 Q: Oh, I'm not suggesting that, sir. 3 A: Well, that's what it sounds like to 4 me, but I'm just telling you that's all the information 5 he wanted was, is there rumours, is there something we 6 have to deal with? And I told him and he said he would 7 look into it. 8 Q: Okay. So, you didn't tell him that 9 you had seen any such thing, but you told him that you 10 had been told that there was a possibility of a fortress 11 being built on the Camp as well. 12 A: Yes, and -- and at the same term, is 13 this is his fourth party -- the four (4) people were in 14 a line and they were told one (1) thing and asked to 15 pass down the line. By the time it got to the fourth 16 person, it definitely would have changed what was said. 17 That's been proven in western psychology. 18 Q: And then later on in that document, 19 Mr. Millar took you to a portion of that document on 20 page 6 or the back of page 3, and I believe you 21 acknowledged that you did, as reported here, advise 22 Inspector Carson that you had a conversation -- sorry -- 23 sorry, Linton advised Carson that he had a conversation 24 with you. 25 So, you did have a conversation with Mr.
2701 Linton where you expressed concern that the cottages at 2 the end of Outer Drive and Pinery Provincial Park would 3 also be taken over by Stoney Point people; is that 4 correct, sir? 5 A: Well, that's what he told him and 6 like I said, there was rumours all over the place. 7 Q: Yes, and you conveyed those rumours? 8 A: That's all. 9 Q: Now, sir, I would put it to you that 10 in the tense atmosphere of the occupation of the Park, 11 for you to convey such rumours, would have obviously 12 inflamed the situation and made it much more dangerous 13 for the people occupying the Park? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that a 15 question? 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Yes, what is your considered view 19 about that now, sir? 20 A: I don't believe that. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now, you told us in evidence today 25 that you updated OPP officers often, but often when you
2711 did so, they already knew what you were telling them. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And so I don't think you used the 4 exact word, but you gave an answer that I took as 5 meaning that you assumed that they had some sort of 6 informer in the Park itself who was giving them direct 7 information; is that correct? 8 A: That's what I believe. 9 Q: That's what you understood? That's 10 what you -- you felt from your conversations with 11 officers? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Now, you told us that you weren't 14 welcome in -- 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: -- to the Park or the Camp? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Would you think, upon reflection, 19 that one (1) reason for you not being welcome was the 20 fact that you were informing OPP officers about the 21 actions of those people? 22 A: You know when you keep silent about 23 something and something occurs that shouldn't, that's 24 when you're -- you're guilty because you didn't do 25 anything to try to prevent it.
2721 Q: Now, sir, you told us this -- this 2 morning and you were more careful about your language 3 than I might be in mine, but you told us about a phone 4 call that you received on September 6th from a person, 5 Bob Watts, and who advised you that he had been told by 6 someone else that Premier Harris had stated, 7 "Get those fucking Indians out of the 8 Park, even if you have to draw your 9 guns to do it," 10 at a Cabinet meeting; right? 11 A: I'm not sure whether it was a 12 Cabinet meeting or not. 13 Q: I see. 14 A: I said it was at a meeting. 15 Q: At a meeting, okay. You were told 16 that he had said that at some meeting and then you told 17 us that you reported that to a radio reporter. 18 A: As well as members of the Council 19 and -- 20 Q: As well as members of the Council? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: But then -- and you said you heard 23 it later on the radio that evening? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, sir, often when one is
2731 interviewed by the Press, you're interviewed at some 2 length and you're interviewed for ten (10) minutes and 3 they run ten (10) seconds, right? 4 Do you recall what was actually run on 5 the radio about what you had told the reporter that day? 6 A: It was basically a request for 7 people who were in the Park to try to get out of there 8 and negotiate their way and get out of the Park. That's 9 basically what was on the radio. 10 Q: I see, but did you tell the reporter 11 that you had been informed that Premier Harris had said 12 that the Indians should be gotten out of the Park -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You told the reporter -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- exactly what you had learned in 17 that respect? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what that reported on the radio, 20 sir? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. 23 A: I don't -- I assume the reporter 24 didn't want to get sued. 25 Q: So, the radio report --
2741 A: If you were on the radio, you 2 wouldn't be saying something that somebody called and 3 told you either. 4 Q: Sir, you -- 5 A: You're a lawyer, you know that. 6 Q: Sorry, I'm just trying to find out 7 the facts, I'm not -- 8 A: Well, you know what the law is. You 9 should know what the CRTC states. 10 Q: But I don't know what was reported 11 on the radio, sir, whether it would have been a 12 violation of law or not and I'm just asking you that, 13 okay? I just want to know -- 14 A: Well, you make a statement about 15 that about a government official and if it's proven to 16 be false and you generate that in the public, what's 17 going to happen to you? 18 Q: So, in any event, what -- what you 19 recollect as having heard on the radio report was a 20 warning to people in the Park that they should leave, 21 but nothing about Mike Harris having said anything about 22 the OPP? 23 A: I didn't have control over the radio 24 signal. I told you I said what I said, and what come 25 out, came out.
2751 Q: Yes. Now, if you could -- do you 2 still have the transcript document in front of you, sir? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: By the way, with respect to that 5 report on the radio, you told us that you didn't go to 6 the -- to the Park to tell the people directly because 7 you were not welcome there, right? 8 A: Sir, would they -- would they have 9 believed me? 10 Q: But -- 11 A: That's -- that's realistically a 12 question you should consider. If they told me to get 13 out of here, we don't want to you and speak for us, 14 would they have believed me? They would have probably 15 thought I was trying to trick them to leaving the Park. 16 Q: Sir, I will consider that question, 17 but not on the Commissioner's time. I'll consider that 18 later, but my question for you, sir, though is, that 19 could you not have sent somebody like Bonni Bressette, 20 for example, to speak to the people in the Park. You 21 knew that Bonni Bressette was somebody that they would 22 speak to. You told us you sent her on a different 23 occasion. 24 With an important message like that, why 25 would you not send Bonni Bressette, for example, or
2761 someone else to the Park to tell the people that, rather 2 than hoping they might have heard it on the radio? 3 A: I done what I thought was most 4 appropriate at the time. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: If you want to hang me for it now, 7 go ahead. 8 Q: If you could turn, please, to the 9 transcripts, and I'd like to turn to page 6 of the -- of 10 what is now Exhibit P-249. And this is in the middle of 11 a transcript of a phone call on September 8th, 1995. It 12 indicates -- that might be an incorrect date. It says - 13 - with Mr. Millar's assistance here. It says September 14 8th over here, it says September 6 over there and it's - 15 - I'm not sure exactly -- it says -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe it's in 18 the wee hours of September 7th. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps I can 20 explain. This is from the London Communications Centre 21 logger tape. The tape starts September 6th, 1995 at 22 23:50 hours on the -- on a twenty-four (24) hours clock. 23 The tape ends September 8th, 1995 at six (6) minutes 24 after midnight. 25 The elapsed time when this conversation
2771 took place was 00:48 minutes and twelve (12) seconds 2 after 23:50 hours. I've tried to, and I've -- that's 3 why I put it in brackets, that it was 12:30 -- it was 4 thirty-eight (38) minutes after 12:00 a.m. on September 5 7th. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, yes. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's what I 8 said this morning. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, I 10 missed that. Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Now, sir, so in the wee hours right 14 after Dudley George was shot, you were having this 15 conversation and if you could turn, then, to the very 16 first line on page 6, you -- attributed to you: 17 "This evening the TRU Team people are 18 in there and I guess -- I don't know 19 why they're conducting a nighttime 20 raid on that place." 21 Now, my question for you, sir, is how did 22 you know that the TRU Team people were in there at that 23 point? 24 A: I -- what are you trying to get at? 25 Just tell me that.
2781 Q: Sir -- sir, I'm asking you a 2 question of fact. 3 A: Well, I -- I don't know. So, can 4 you please ask me what you're trying to get at so we 5 don't have to -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 7 only way we can do it, unfortunately, Chief. The -- the 8 lawyers get to ask the questions and the witnesses 9 answer them. If you don't understand, you can ask to 10 have it explained but the question is, how did you know 11 it was the TRU Team, I think. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at the top of 13 page 6, Chief Bressette, where you were reported to -- 14 said on the tape: 15 "This evening the TRU Team people are 16 in there and I guess -- I don't know 17 why they conducted an nighttime raid 18 on that place." 19 And the question that Mr. -- do you -- 20 did you find that at the top of page 6, sir? 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it was a 22 TRU Team. I think the OPP called it a ERT Team, I don't 23 know. They use several -- several words. And I guess - 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's at the 25 top of the page, Mr. Henderson.
2791 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Your page number 2 is what, sir? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Six (6). 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think, Mr. 8 Henderson, that you should simply point out where it is 9 on the page and -- and not discuss it with Chief 10 Bressette. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I was pointing 13 out to -- 14 THE WITNESS: I -- I see it. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- to Chief 16 Bressette which conversation this was -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. But -- 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- which 19 continues on to the top of the page. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 22 relatively simple question, right? 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It's a very simple 24 question, I thought. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When you
2801 used the phrase TRU Team, how did you know it was a TRU 2 Team? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it. 5 THE WITNESS: -- what happens is when 6 OPP officers -- and because I've -- I've dealt with 7 police issues within our own community, that term TRU 8 Team, Tactical Response Unit, was used and -- and within 9 our own police service. And that's who I would assume 10 would be handling this because of the conditions. 11 And -- and later you see E -- ERT Team, 12 that's Emergency Response Team. I don't know who was in 13 there exactly. I assumed that's who was in there 14 because they went in there and -- and when I had called, 15 during this particular conversation, that was after the 16 shooting had occurred. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Now, sir, if you could -- 20 A: I don't know if it was a TRU Team 21 or -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 23 you've answered the question. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't like 25 to cut the Witness off, Mr. Commissioner.
2811 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. I 2 don't want to cut him off either. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I want to 4 move on. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 6 mean -- 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Now, sir -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps it might be - 11 - and I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Rosenthal -- but the - 12 - it might be that the -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A good 14 time -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we could take a 16 short break or -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the Witness has 19 been here since 9:00 this morning. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 21 it's really difficult for a witness to start at 9:00 in 22 the morning and still answer questions like this at 5:15 23 in the afternoon. So, I'd like Mr. Rosenthal to finish 24 his cross-examination, if we can, and I think we'll call 25 it a day.
2821 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. But perhaps we 2 could take a short break so the Witness could have a 3 short break. Or perhaps that's up to the witness. 4 THE WITNESS: No, it's okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 6 okay, Mr. -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Is that okay? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Chief 10 Bressette? I think Mr. Rosenthal should be close to the 11 end. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm fairly close, 13 Mr. Commissioner, but I don't want to rush through a few 14 areas here. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I have not come 17 close to the time that I predicted -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I've not 20 come close to two (2) hours but -- but I - I am getting 21 close and I will try to finish. But I'm -- I'm in 22 everyone's hands as far as that goes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if 24 it's possible to finish within a reasonable time, I 25 think it would be preferable to have you finish rather
2831 than go over. But if Chief Bressette needs a few 2 minutes to have a break, we will have it. 3 He's saying to us that he's okay to 4 continue. So, I'd like to continue and finish your 5 cross-examination, if possible. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I shall 7 endeavour to do so. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 9 fine. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 14 Q: Now, with respect to that 15 transcript, at page 13, you indicate at the top of page 16 13: 17 "I know what you're saying. Like I 18 said, it's a difficult position for me 19 to be in." 20 And then later on, about two thirds (2/3) 21 of the way down the page, you say: 22 "They refused to listen to me and put 23 me in a strange predicament." 24 So, what did you mean by the difficulty 25 of the position you were in and the strangeness of your
2841 predicament? 2 A: We had a number of people come from 3 -- from the -- the Park into the community and what was 4 happening was they were saying things weren't the way 5 that the OPP were reporting to us how things happened. 6 And I think I -- I went on the TV camera 7 that morning basically to say, you know, our People have 8 their story of what happened down there and the OPP have 9 theirs, but there's a difference of opinion exactly what 10 happened. 11 What happened was people came over and 12 they were making statements. My responsibility was to 13 look after the concerns of the Band. And I -- I was 14 telling the inspector at that particular point in time 15 when he called and he asked me what was going on in the 16 community, advising me they're not planning any attack, 17 I -- I basically had come to the conclusion I didn't 18 know what to believe anymore from what they were saying. 19 The man told me to call him and he would 20 tell me whether they were going to do anything or not. 21 I didn't know whether they were or whether they weren't. 22 I got the impression and -- and there was a lot of 23 concern that, like I stated, there was a rumour that 24 somebody else got shot at the gate, at that particular 25 time we didn't know that.
2851 We went on and -- and basically when he 2 was calling me, I was trying to deal with a situation 3 where people were setting the highway on fire. And 4 basically how would you feel if you were in that 5 position? 6 Q: I'll be glad to answer all your 7 questions after the inquiry, sir, but not on the 8 Commissioner's time. 9 A: All right. 10 Q: Now -- and I'm happy to meet you for 11 coffee and discuss all -- all the questions you want to 12 ask me. Now, sir, page 15 of the transcript, I should 13 ask you about another comment attributed to you. This 14 is in the middle of a discussion with Inspector Linton 15 apparently. And about quarter of the way down you are 16 quoted as saying: 17 "Well, I don't know what's going on. 18 I hear there is a lot of people coming 19 this way and they're not taking no for 20 an answer." 21 Now, do you know what people you were 22 referring to there, sir, coming? This is -- I believe 23 this is in the early morning, if one looks back a couple 24 pages, it says it's 7:11 a.m. I believe it's at 7:11 25 a.m. on September 7. And so:
2861 "A lot of people coming this way and 2 they're not taking no for the answer - 3 - for an answer." 4 Now, we've heard that at some time that 5 morning there were a lot of people who marched from 6 Kettle Point to Stoney Point -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- to show their support. Is that 9 the people you're talking about? 10 A: I -- I'm not sure. 11 Q: 12 "People are just coming this way, 13 they're not going to take no for an 14 answer, they've been called by someone 15 who has been given a list of numbers 16 for people to call, for some of the 17 people in the Base there, so I don't 18 know who they are." 19 But it would -- the circumstances would 20 suggest that you might have been referring to the people 21 marching from Kettle to Stoney Point to show their 22 support? 23 A: Well, there was a lot of people from 24 the whole community were involved in that. 25 Q: Yes, a lot of people from -- when
2871 you say, "the whole community," you mean to imply Kettle 2 and Stoney Point, together. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: They did come together on that 5 morning. 6 A: As well as other people. 7 Q: As well as other people, to show 8 support for the people in the Park in light of what had 9 happened the night before; is that fair to say? 10 A: Well, during the -- the course of 11 all of this, there was a meeting and -- and there were 12 chiefs in the community that I was meeting with at that 13 particular time. Right after this happened, people 14 wanted to go down there. Essentially, what was being 15 asked was, Look, we need to sit down as -- as the chiefs 16 here and figure out what's going on. 17 People were getting angry at that 18 particular time wanting to go and they were holding them 19 up and I told them, Look, people are going to be going 20 down that way and there's -- there's no way anybody's 21 going to stop them. 22 And I think the National Chief as well 23 made some -- some calls advising the OPP to withdraw or 24 back off from -- from holding these -- these checkpoints 25 that they were holding up, that people are going to go
2881 down there because they were concerned with what reports 2 had been coming through the community about who may or 3 may not have gotten hurt. And there were people who 4 wanted to go and check on their family members and 5 that's exactly what happened. 6 Q: Thank you. I wanted to turn, if I 7 may then, to another tape on the same document. It's -- 8 according to page 17, it's tape 5 which began at 9:07 9 a.m. later that morning, but then I should like to ask 10 you about a statement attributed to you on page 19. 11 This is in the context of you talking 12 about negotiators coming and you -- and you explaining 13 to Inspector Linton that they're from Oneida. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then you're quoted as saying 16 about a third of the way down: 17 "Well, I know them, but if they're 18 asking for them, maybe they can get 19 them to come out of there, I don't 20 know. I mean, all I'm trying to do is 21 to find somebody to get them out of 22 there." 23 Now, sir, what you meant by that, I 24 gather, was get them out of the Park? 25 A: Yeah.
2891 Q: Not the Camp, but the Park? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: But did you not understand that the 4 people marching in support of these people, were 5 marching in support of their staying in the Park, in 6 light of what had happened? 7 A: I don't know. Emotions were running 8 pretty high at that particular time. There were a lot 9 of -- there was a lot of anger in the community. 10 Q: Now -- 11 A: You -- you can take from it what you 12 want, you heard the conversation. I think we all heard 13 the conversation over the speaker, so that's what 14 happened, that was the discussion. 15 Q: Please turn to Tab 82 of the 16 document brief, which is also Exhibit P-252 and which is 17 the transcription of the conference call on September 18 7th, 1995, between you and several other persons; do you 19 have that document, sir? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: If you could turn to page 3, please. 22 Page 3 begins with something in the middle of a 23 statement of National Chief Mercredi and I would like to 24 just read the last sentence of that. 25 "We must try to get the negotiations
2901 out of the hands of the police and the 2 AFN and other leaders should be 3 present to support these people." 4 Now, am I correct, sir, in taking that to 5 mean -- did you understand it at the time to mean that 6 Chief Mercredi meant supporting the people in the Park 7 and the Camp? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: On page 3? 12 Q: Yes, page -- it's a number in the -- 13 not in the very top of the page, but the -- the typed -- 14 the typed number is a "3." It's the next -- it's Tab 15 82, it's the next-to-last page of that document. That 16 is a four (4) page transcript of the conference call and 17 I'm on the next to last page of it, at the very top, 18 sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Do you see what I'm talking to, now? 23 "Other leaders should be present to support these 24 people." The first words on the page is "independent 25 group".
2911 A: Okay. 2 Q: Are we on the same page? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay, at the end of that paragraph, 5 there's the sentence that I read: 6 "We must try to get the negotiations 7 out of the hands of the police and the 8 AFN and other leaders should be 9 present to support these people." 10 And my question, sir, was: did National 11 Chief Mercredi mean by that support the people and the 12 Park and the Camp? 13 A: Well, why don't -- 14 Q: Do you understand -- 15 A: Why don't you take the whole 16 conversation in context and read what he says at the 17 second statement down below it. 18 "It would be helpful if other leaders 19 came in. I think this is a good idea. 20 In Gustafson Lake the Chiefs of the 21 Tribal Council would meet daily for 22 three (3) or four (4) hours to develop 23 strategy for the first day. This 24 situation is unlike Gustafson Lake - 25 the Indians are not the aggressors.
2921 The police have complete -- 2 completely mishandled this and created 3 a real problem." 4 That's basically is -- is support for all 5 of the people in this area. 6 Q: So present to support these people, 7 does not refer to the people in -- 8 A: It means all of us. 9 Q: -- the Park? All of us? Meaning 10 all First Nations people? 11 A: Well, the people who were affected 12 and the people from Kettle and Stony Point who he was -- 13 he was -- 14 Q: I see -- 15 A: -- talking about. 16 Q: -- okay, I understand, thank you. 17 Now, then you are recorded as saying about two-thirds of 18 the way down, 19 "I welcome your ideas. The problems I 20 have -- the problem I have now is that 21 people are on their way there." 22 Do you see that, sir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now is that the people marching from 25 Kettle Point to Stony Point that you're referring to?
2931 A: Yes. 2 Q: And why did you regard that as a 3 problem rather than a partial solution to a problem? 4 A: Because I didn't know whether the 5 OPP were going to be involved and start shooting again. 6 That's what we were concerned with. I don't know, maybe 7 you think we shouldn't have been concerned about that, 8 but there was a shooting just occurred and that's what 9 our concerns were. 10 Q: Yes, well we've had a testimony from 11 a number of people who were in the Park who said that 12 they had that concern, they were afraid the OPP would 13 come in again, but then when they saw all those people 14 coming, they felt relieved -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- that they were getting that 17 support and that gave them comfort, that the OPP would 18 not dare to come in. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Now, can you understand that, sir? 21 A: I did. We were the ones that were 22 meeting and the National Chief was advising the police 23 to back off and give some time to breathe so negotiation 24 could start. 25 I mean, if you read the whole thing
2941 instead of picking one piece out, you can see what 2 happened. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I am attenuating 7 my cross-examination, Mr. Commissioner, to try to meet 8 your concerns and I shall just ask one more area then. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: You told us, Chief Bressette, that 12 you attended a meeting with Premier Harris a couple of 13 days after this event? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, in the course of that meeting, 16 did Premier Harris express any regret or any condolences 17 about the death of Dudley George? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I really don't recall. I was quite 22 angry at that particular meeting. All I remember him 23 coming in was saying, let me for the record, I never 24 asked anybody to shoot anybody, is all, essentially, 25 that he said when he came in.
2951 And, you know, beyond that it was him and 2 Ovide Mercredi who were having a dialogue. 3 Q: Thank you, Chief Bressette, thank 4 you Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. It's 5:30. Thank you very 7 much, Mr. Bressette, it's been a long day -- Chief 8 Bressette. We're going to adjourn now until nine 9 o'clock -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Nine o'clock tomorrow 11 morning, sir. 12 13 (WITNESS RETIRES) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We usually 16 break at 3:30 on Thursday, but we'll go as long as we 17 can to try to -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll go as long as 19 we can tomorrow to finish Chief Bressette. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Everybody 21 understand that? We'll go as long as we can to try to 22 finish. Thank you very much. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 24 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, March the 3rd at 25 9:00 a.m.
2961 --- Upon adjourning at 5:32 p.m. 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 ________________ 8 Carol Geehan, Ms. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25