1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 28th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 Gary Penner ) Ronald French 9 Elizabeth Kikuchi ) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 RONALD FRENCH, Affirmed 6 (via video conference) 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 12 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Kim Twohig 89 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 96 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Adam Goodman 98 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klipenstein 106 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 129 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 143 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 168 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1871 Transcript of telephone call: Command 4 Post track 3; September 06,1995; start 5 time, 22:24 hrs; actual time, 22:31 hrs; 6 duration of transmission, 2 minutes and 7 03 seconds. Conversation involves 8 Inspector Dale Linton 11 9 P-1872 Transcript of telephone call: Command 10 Post track 3; September 06, 1995; start 11 time, 22:19 hrs; actual time, 22:26 hrs; 12 duration of transmission: 1 minute and 44 13 seconds. Conversation involves Inspector 14 Dale Linton and Judy Richardson. 11 15 P-1873 Document No. 9000002, E-mail from 16 Darryl Hill to Audry Doerr re: Kettle 17 Point - Camp Ipperwash, August 21st, 1995 33 18 P-1874 Document No. 6000355, Victor Gulewitsch - 19 Field notes to tape: Sept 06, 1995 38 20 P-1875 Document Number 9000002. E-mail from 21 Glen Brennan to Audrey Doerr re. 22 Ipperwash, May 17, 1995. 102 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS - Continued 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1876 CD of Chatham 0146, Track 12, Command 4 Post Logger, 3 radio transmissions, 1 5 telephone conversation re: Ron French 6 present at Ipperwash Camp 156 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Before we begin with Mr. French there's a 10 small matter that I need to deal with from yesterday. 11 At the end of the day yesterday we marked 12 a book of documents with respect to the late Inspector 13 Dale Linton. And Shawn Evans (phonetic), at my request, 14 has created two (2) transcripts for two (2) -- we've 15 included three (3) telephone calls. 16 We had a transcript for one (1) and Shawn 17 Evans prepared a transcript for the other two (2) -- each 18 of the other two (2) calls. And I would ask that we mark 19 as the next exhibit, I think it's Exhibit 1871, it would 20 be the telephone call on September 6th, 1995, at 22:19 21 hours between Inspector Dale Linton and Judy Richardson, 22 and that's with respect to Mrs. Hannahson. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1871, Your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1871. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1871: Transcript of telephone call: 2 Command Post track 3; 3 September 06,1995; start 4 time, 22:24 hrs; actual time, 5 22:31 hrs; duration of 6 transmission, 2 minutes and 7 03 seconds. Conversation 8 involves Inspector Dale 9 Linton. 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And as P-1872 the call 12 at 22:24 hours on September 6th. And it's a call where 13 it's simply one hears the dialling of the phone and I 14 would ask that be marked P-1872. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1872, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1872: Transcript of telephone call: 18 Command Post track 3; 19 September 06, 1995; start 20 time, 22:19 hrs; actual time, 21 22:26 hrs; duration of 22 transmission: 1 minute and 44 23 seconds. Conversation 24 involves Inspector Dale 25 Linton and Judy Richardson.


1 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Worme is 4 dealing with Mr. French. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 Good morning, Mr. Worme. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 8 Commissioner. 9 Commissioner, I have the privilege, I 10 guess, of calling the next and indeed last witness of the 11 Inquiry. We would ask that we would call then Mr. Ronald 12 French as the next witness, please. 13 14 RONALD FRENCH, Affirmed 15 (via video conference) 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Mr. French, let me first of all I 19 just thank you for the extraordinary effort that you've 20 made to attend here today and even though it's by way of 21 video conference we are certainly appreciative that you 22 were able to -- to make it and to join us to provide us 23 your testimony today. 24 A: Yes, thank you and I -- I appreciate 25 the accommodation that the Commission has made under my


1 circumstances. 2 Q: I also just want to mention just by 3 way of what's going on here that there is a bit of a -- a 4 lag in terms of the -- the voiceover back and forth. I 5 think there's a delay of a couple of seconds or so, so -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I understand that you also have a 8 live video feed on your end so you can also make some -- 9 and observe the -- the various counsel that will be 10 asking you questions after -- after I'm done here. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 12 that Mr. -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 15 that Mr. French is represented by -- by counsel or some 16 counsel are there on his behalf. Perhaps we should 17 introduce them. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: He -- he does have 19 counsel here as well as -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Other than 21 Mr. Penner. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: -- I understand, there 23 are -- Mr. Penner's -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Penner 25 is here.


1 MR. DONALD WORME: -- Federal colleagues 2 are also present in the -- in the hearing room at the 3 other end of the -- the other end of this feed, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm 6 advised that Elizabeth Kikuchi and Jonathan Holmes are 7 there and Mr. Penner is here. That's fine. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Right, that -- that's 9 correct, Commissioner. Thank you for that. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Mr. French, you are a citizen of the 13 Kanawake Mohawk Territory? Did I say that properly? 14 A: Yes, Kanawake, sir. 15 Q: All right. Now -- 16 A: And I did want to make one (1) -- one 17 (1) comment before we -- we begin to -- there may be 18 different times where I may stand up unexpectedly. I'm 19 not running away, I'm just trying to get some feeling in 20 my legs. 21 Q: We're all happy to know that and -- 22 and certainly by all means we're quite prepared to make 23 the accommodations given the extraordinary efforts that 24 you've made, so by all means. 25 I understand, sir, that you have been


1 employed with the Federal Government, that is, with the 2 Government of Canada since 1970's, thereabouts? 3 A: Yes, around 1970 I started with 4 Indian Affairs. 5 Q: And in Indian Affairs you worked with 6 the Office of Native Claims; is that -- that's correct is 7 it? 8 A: Yes, the Office of Native Claims in 9 the early eighties. 10 Q: And I wonder if you might take a 11 moment, sir, and detail for us the various positions that 12 you held. And we're particularly interested I think in 13 the Office of Native Claims that you were employed with. 14 A: Yes, I'll start from the more like 15 the middle 70's because there is a little bit of 16 connection there. I worked in the land division of 17 Indian Affairs and one (1) of my tasks was to go to the 18 National Archives and be a part of the microfilming or 19 microfiching of all the Indian Affairs records of the 20 day. 21 And the -- at that time I understand that 22 there was a point (transmission failure) the Indian 23 Affairs records were destroyed because of, I guess, not 24 room to warehouse them. And there was a fellow named Mr. 25 Hume (phonetic) who fought to keep the records alive.


1 And then when microfilming came in vogue 2 he had that done. And if it wasn't for Mr. Hume, records 3 including the history of Stoney Point and Ipperwash would 4 have probably been lost. 5 I did go to the Office of Native Claims in 6 1981. I was -- I started as a researcher and as an 7 analyst, a senior analyst, system negotiator, negotiate 8 and later Chief (transmission failure) or senior federal 9 negotiator. 10 Should I -- should I talk about the duties 11 of the office of Native Claims? 12 Q: I'm particularly interested, Mr. 13 French, and I think there might be some further interest 14 among some of the parties here with respect to the 15 various policies that were held by that office. 16 A: The Office of Native Claims was a 17 program onto itself. Which means that it had its own 18 Assistant Deputy Minister. There were two (2) Directors 19 with the office of Native Claim. There was the Director 20 of Comprehensive Claims and a Director of Specific 21 Claims. 22 The policy with specific claims it looks 23 at the historic treaty or the administrative of the 24 Indian Act. And those are historic grievances. 25 There is a process within the specific


1 claims policy. It's usually the Band Council through BCR 2 would submit a claim on behalf of the community. And 3 then the claim is reviewed and recommendations from 4 Department of Justice whether it is accepted for 5 negotiation or rejected. And then it goes through the 6 negotiation pro -- if accepted for negotiation, it goes 7 through the negotiation process. And hopefully to 8 settlement and implementation. 9 The comprehensive claims have to do with 10 the (transmission failure) rights and I didn't work in 11 that area. 12 Q: I understand, as well, Mr. French, 13 that beyond the comprehensive and specific claims 14 policies that you've just described briefly for us, that 15 there is also claims of another kind, if I can put it 16 that way? 17 A: Yeah, claims of another kind or 18 special kind. And that's actually where the negotiations 19 for Ipperwash fall under (transmission failure) office. 20 The claims of a special kind again I didn't work in that 21 area, but it's claims that fall between the policies of 22 comprehensive and specific. 23 They may have components of each and 24 sometimes it -- they don't. 25 Q: All right. Thank you for that. Just


1 going back very briefly the specific claims process as 2 you've described it to us, is triggered if I can put it 3 that way by a submission by a Chief and Council, is that 4 what I understood you to say? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when we're talking Chief and 7 Council, I take it that that is because obviously that is 8 an Indian Affairs policy, that is a federal policy, I 9 take it that it is only the Indian Act Chief and Council 10 or that is the government recognized pursuant to the 11 Federal Indian Act that is -- has the ability to file 12 such a claim, is that correct? 13 A: Yes, that's my understanding. 14 Q: All right. Are you aware, sir, of 15 any instances where a body other than the federally 16 recognized Chief and Council were able to initiate such 17 claims? 18 A: I think we're going into an area 19 where it is possible. I -- I've been away from that 20 office for a few years. Just offhand I can't say that 21 that has happened. I know that certain individuals or 22 people or persons representing groups will write in with 23 claims. Then it becomes more correspondence. They're 24 not looked on as a formal submission of a claim. 25 Q: And can we take from that, sir, that


1 a submission by someone other than the federally 2 recognized Chief and Council would be an anomaly, that is 3 to say it would be unusual? 4 A: With my work with the Minister's 5 Office (transmission failure) we -- we certainly did a 6 lot of correspondence regarding individuals or groups 7 making claims or -- or expressing some (transmission 8 failure) that it be looked at. 9 Q: Let me just make a couple of comments 10 quite outside of the line of questioning. I just want to 11 caution you, sir, that the microphone on your end picks 12 up a lot of ambient noise and I suspect that the 13 microphone on this end does as well. 14 I also want to alert Commissioner and 15 others that we may have technical difficulties if the 16 line goes down. I'll simply make mention of that. But 17 some of your testimony is breaking up a little bit and if 18 I need you to go over anything or, indeed, if anybody 19 needs you to repeat something then I would ask you to do 20 so, Mr. French. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Sir, in the 1990's I 23 understand that you were involved in what has been 24 regarded as the Oka crisis? 25 A: No, I simply -- well, I was involved


1 in the fact that I'm a member of Kanawake -- and that my 2 --(transmission failure) and my brother were still 3 (transmission failure) when -- when it broke down. 4 Q: I see. You weren't involved in any 5 official capacity then? 6 A: Oh no, none at all. 7 Q: All right. In 1995, Mr. French, you 8 were the special assistant to the Minister of Indian and 9 Northern Affairs who we know was then The Honourable Ron 10 Irwin? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 13 tell us what your duties were at that particular time, 14 the function that you carried out as special assistant to 15 the Minister? 16 A: This is -- well, I had claims under 17 my duties and that was national. So it was both -- it 18 was all comprehensive, specific, other. I had separate 19 negotiations and there may have been one (1) more. But 20 they were -- they were national (transmission failure). 21 The role of the assistant really is to act 22 as liaison between senior managers or at the Department 23 of Indian Affairs and the Minister. But also First 24 Nation or aboriginal people and the Minister. So I would 25 bring information from the Department or First Nations to


1 the Minister or from the Minister into the Department to 2 First Nations. 3 Q: As part of that function did you have 4 any involvement with Kettle and Stony Point First Nation 5 or any claims that they may have been involved in and 6 particularly with West Ipperwash beach? 7 A: I didn't know about the West 8 Ipperwash beach. I guess that came at the time of -- of 9 the occupation of -- of the beach. I'm not sure what -- 10 if -- if there is a -- a claim to the Ipperwash beach. 11 I'm not aware of that one (1). I know that the -- the 12 compound itself was -- was being looked at as an 13 administrative process. 14 Q: And when you say, "the compound" are 15 you referring to what has been -- 16 A: The Military Base. 17 Q: All right. Thank you. Sir, I 18 understand that you are currently as you've told us not 19 working with the Department of Indian Affairs any longer 20 but you're currently with Heritage Canada, that's 21 correct? 22 A: Yes, I'm seconded to Canadian 23 Heritage. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: But my substantive department is --


1 is Indian Affairs. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. You had 3 mentioned the Army Camp. I understand, Mr. French, that 4 you had occasion to attend at the Army Camp in June of 5 1995? 6 A: Yes, I went there in -- in June. The 7 Minister asked me to go down and I had understood that a 8 few people were able to get in so I -- I simply went down 9 and just tried to see if I could get in (transmission 10 failure). 11 Q: I'm sorry -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That just 13 broke up. I didn't hear that piece. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: That last transmission 15 broke. 16 THE WITNESS: I -- I simply went down to 17 see if I could get in and talk to some people. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: And were you able to get in and talk 21 to some people? 22 A: I got in quite easily. I -- I was 23 told that it -- it could be very difficult to get in. I 24 drove up to the gates and my recollection maybe a ten 25 (10)year old -- a twelve (12) year old little boys were -


1 - were sitting on the gates and I simply drove in; said 2 "hi" and drove in. 3 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what happened 4 once you arrived there? What did you observe? Who did 5 you talk with? 6 A: I can't remember that day if I went 7 in with -- with someone. It's in the documents, the 8 gentleman's name. I was there in -- on three (3) times 9 and I -- I can't remember from ten (10) years the 10 circumstances of meet (transmission failure) each time 11 but I -- I was -- I did through a barracks and -- and 12 met a number of people who was Maynard Travis George is 13 my main (transmission failure). 14 Q: Do you know when in June of 1995 that 15 you were in attendance at the Army Camp and -- and was it 16 the main barracks area that you attended? We've had 17 evidence here -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- that the barracks were not 20 occupied until the 29th of June. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 22 just wait one (1) minute? 23 Q: Pardon me, of July. Pardon me. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Roy?


1 MR. JULIAN ROY: Maybe it's only me but 2 I'm having great difficulty hearing the evidence. It's 3 cutting out at very critical points. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is 5 difficult. 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: As we're getting into 7 more kind of contentious matters that -- that are -- are 8 onto the facts of what actually happened it's getting 9 more important that we hear each word and -- and I'm -- 10 maybe it's only me. Maybe there are other counsel that 11 have the same difficulty. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 13 breaking up. It's breaking up. 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm wondering if there 15 can be some adjustments perhaps made from a... 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 17 if... 18 MR. DONALD WORME: I can only -- I can 19 only say, Commissioner, that the technical services that 20 we've had here have done frankly a remarkable job. I 21 regret that it isn't as crystal clear as we would all 22 like it to be. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the 24 breaking up at that end or at this end. Can we check? 25 THE WITNESS: Not at all. It's very,


1 very clear. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Very clear 3 at your end? 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: And I'm not -- I'm not 5 raising this to be critical of anybody. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 7 that. We need to hear it. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: And I certainly 9 understand that and I appreciate that and again as I say 10 there will be times when the transmission will not be as 11 clear as we would all like it to be and I would certainly 12 appreciate it if My Friends would raise that and we would 13 ask Mr. French if he could repeat it. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If something 15 important is not intelligible we'll just repeat it. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we'll 18 see if we can get through it; if not we'll have to make 19 other arrangements. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: As I -- as I understood it at least


1 your recollection is from ten (10) -- ten (10) -- eleven 2 (11) years ago that you were -- you were in attendance at 3 the Army Camp in June of 1995? 4 A: I don't have the date other than I 5 was there a couple of times, whether it was June or July, 6 but the thing was I did go into the barracks. There was 7 a house there and that's where I met Maynard Travis 8 George and many others. 9 Q: Among those others, do you have any 10 recollection of the names? 11 A: No I don't. 12 Q: I understand you also had occasion to 13 meet with Chief Tom Bressette in and around that period 14 of time, perhaps August of '95? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And can you tell us what the nature 17 of the meeting was, what was discussed? 18 A: Certainly every time I -- I was going 19 down there and I guess it was three (3) times and the 20 fourth afer the incident, I would phone down to the Band 21 Council office to let them (transmission failure) I was 22 coming into the territory. In August -- 23 Q: I'm sorry Mr. French -- I'm going to 24 just interrupt you and ask you if you could repeat that 25 because that certainly broke up.


1 You've mentioned that you'd attended at 2 the Band Council office and just carry on from there. 3 A: Yes I -- every time I went into the 4 Camp, the three (3) times and then a fourth time after 5 the incident, I did phone the Band Council office to let 6 them know that I was coming down, into their territory. 7 In August, that was my second trip down 8 there and I think I spent a little more time at the -- in 9 fact, I don't even know, I probably did go into the -- 10 into the Military Base, but certainly I attended there at 11 the Band Council offices. 12 Q: I understand you attended a Band 13 Council meeting, as a matter of fact? 14 A: Yes I did. 15 Q: And as part of that discussion was 16 the occupation of the built up area, that is the barracks 17 area that you've described at Camp Ipperwash? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You were familiar, Mr. French, that 20 in fact, Camp Ipperwash had been taken from the First 21 Nations people who were resident there in approximately 22 1942 pursuant to the War Measures Act? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that there had been attempts over 25 the years to reclaim that territory?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: You were also familiar with the fact, 3 that as a result of there being no movement, if I can put 4 it that way, that that was behind the occupation, is that 5 -- was that your understanding? 6 A: Yes, that's my understanding. 7 Q: Okay. Were you also familiar Mr. 8 French, that there was some issues as between the 9 Council, that is the Chief and Council of Kettle and 10 Stony Point First Nation and some of the folks in 11 occupation of the Army Camp? 12 A: Yes, I was aware of that. 13 Q: Can you tell us anything more about 14 that? 15 A: None other than I think Chief 16 Bressette mentioned that he had -- I don't know if it was 17 once or several times -- headed down towards the Military 18 Base but, was not well accepted. 19 And I know in the background there was 20 discussions of a possible split and certainly as a Chief 21 he didn't agree with that I don't think. 22 Q: All right. Just on that -- on that 23 issue about Band split, I also understand that there is a 24 Band recognition process as part of the policy of Indian 25 Affairs?


1 A: I can't really speak to that, I don't 2 know the policy. I've heard of it. I haven't read it. 3 But, I (transmission failure) believe it exists, yes. 4 Q: All right. And can we take from that 5 that you weren't and aren't aware whether or not, there 6 was any attempts for Band recognition by any of either 7 the occupiers or anybody else, that is the occupiers of 8 the Army Base? 9 A: Could you repeat that? I'm not 10 sure -- 11 Q: I'm sorry. It's my fault, I hadn't-- 12 A: I think there was discussion about a 13 possible band -- Stony Pointers being a band unto 14 themselves. 15 Q: Do you know whether there was any 16 formal application that had taken place in that regard? 17 A: No. (Transmission failure) I'm not - 18 - I didn't know that there was an application or not. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you. I was just going 20 to ask you that. Sir, we had provided through your 21 counsel a book of documents and I wonder if you might 22 turn to that at this moment. You'll find at Tab 1 -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- there is an e-mail from D. Hill to 25 a Mr. Doerr and it's dated August 21st of 1993. It's


1 Inquiry Document -- 2 A: What's the tab number, sorry? 3 Q: It should be at Tab 1. You'll find 4 an e-mail there that's -- and I'll ask you to look at the 5 last three (3) pages of that if you would please? Do you 6 see that? You'll find an e-mail that's got a posted date 7 of August 21st, 1995. I may have misspoke earlier and 8 said '93. 9 MS. ELIZABETH KIKUCHI: Excuse me, this 10 is Elizabeth Kikuchi speaking. Oh, I just want to 11 confirm that it's the document in Tab 1. It's not an e- 12 mail that was sent with that (transmission failure). 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: I'm sorry, we're having a bit of 16 difficulty in -- in hearing that. 17 A: Yes, we have the document now. 18 Q: All right. You'll find it's got an 19 Inquiry Document at the upper right-hand corner 900002? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And I can tell you that 22 this is notes that were taken by one Victor Gulewitsch as 23 a result of your attendance on August 16th of 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It's an e-mail; yes? You've had a


1 chance to read it before today, Mr. French? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And you'll see that it records a 4 certain frustration by the Kettle and Stoney Point First 5 Nation Council with the Department of National Defence's 6 unwillingness to negotiate with the Band Council other 7 than for an environmental assessment, you see that? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: And it also notes that there was a 10 certain degree of frustration with the lack of progress 11 on any types of substantial negotiations in respect to 12 the Army Base? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you'll see that it also records a 15 suggestion that more aggressive approaches might be taken 16 including blockades or marches for support, you see that 17 as well? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And do you see that the Chief and 20 Council were also critical of the Department that you 21 were in service of, that they were critical of the 22 Department of Indian Affairs at that point, do you see 23 that as well? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: And, sir, does that accord with your


1 recollection of your attendance at the Council Meetings 2 that you've told us about? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell us whether that was, as 5 well, sir, consistent with your understanding of the 6 sentiments of those people that were in occupation of the 7 Army Base? 8 A: I'm not sure -- repeat that please? 9 Q: All right. You've told us that you 10 attended at Camp Ipperwash, you attended at the barracks; 11 that you met with people, among others, one Maynard 12 Travis George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did they express similar 15 sentiments to you? 16 A: I believe so. We certainly were 17 asking for solutions. My remembrance too was that I 18 mentioned to them the process regarding the cleaning up 19 of the Army Base. I also recall that that was something 20 we were possibly not agreeable to. I think they were 21 reluctant to let other people onto the Base, Military. 22 At that point maybe (transmission failure) find somebody 23 to take a (transmission failure) foothold in there. 24 Q: I -- I'm sorry, sir, the transmission 25 broke up in your last -- in your last comment.


1 A: When I described the problem and -- 2 and mentioned that the first step of the problem being 3 the cleanup of the (transmission failure) of the Base I 4 think they were reluctant to let anybody (transmission 5 failure)the Base do that. 6 Q: Perhaps, Commissioner, I'd ask that 7 that document be made the next exhibit? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1873, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1873: Document No. 9000002, E-mail 11 from Darryl Hill to Audry Doerr 12 re: Kettle Point - Camp 13 Ipperwash, August 21st, 1995 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Mr. French, you mentioned that -- 17 that the Department of National Defence -- can you recall 18 whether you had attended any meetings with any members of 19 the Department of National Defence and what the outcome 20 of such meetings were? 21 A: Yes, I went with Gordon Shanks 22 (phonetic) who was an Assistant Deputy Minister with 23 Indian Affairs. Now, I don't know if he was the 24 Assistant Deputy Minister in lands or in claims. I -- I 25 don't recall, but we went and met with Rem Westland and


1 it was a short meeting. It -- we really didn't get 2 anywhere with it. DND regarding perhaps the -- I -- I 3 relayed the -- the frustration with the -- the type of 4 negotiations that the First Nations were having and also 5 the matter of the clean-up. 6 Q: Can I ask you to turn to Tab 2 of the 7 book of documents? You'll find a document with an 8 Inquiry document number 6000355. You'll see the cover 9 page. It says: 10 "George et al v Harris et al. 11 Plaintiff supplementary affidavit of 12 documents?" 13 A: Okay. Yes, I have that. 14 Q: Do you see that? And if you could 15 turn into the first page of that you'll see the -- the 16 name Victor Gulewitsch at the top, Field Notes to tape 17 dated September 6th of 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: If you -- if you flip over to the 20 next page at page 2 right under where it says, "New 21 Tape", do you see that, September 6th, 1995? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And there's the comment there and it 24 reads: 25 "Rem Westland from National Defence (a)


1 in Ron French's view does not 2 understand what's going on. His saying 3 that Dylan Consulting is not the issue. 4 The Kettle Pointers' treatment of 5 Stoney Point people in 1942 is the 6 issue. 7 Westland has talked to Tom just before 8 Ron French got there today and 9 continued to push the idea that the 10 Band take back Camp Ipperwash and that 11 they transfer control over to him even 12 though French said the legal opinions 13 have already come in that Ipperwash is 14 a military jurisdiction and that the 15 Indians don't need to take the land and 16 can't take the land until it's subject 17 to environmental review and Tom is 18 not --" 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: "-- willing to have this problem 21 dropped in his lap." 22 A: Yes, well, that's the process if -- 23 if the -- the military camp were to be (transmission 24 failure) the first step would have been to clean up the - 25 - the land.


1 Q: Just one (1) second. I wonder if you 2 could just repeat that for us, Mr. French? 3 A: That the first step in the process if 4 the military camp was then to be returned (transmission 5 failure). Shall I repeat that? 6 Q: Yes would you please? 7 A: That the first step in the process 8 should the land on the Military base be returned to 9 Reserve, that there would be a clean up of the land. 10 Q: And just so we're clear on this end, 11 Mr. French, the process that you're talking about is the 12 specific claims process or the claims process that you've 13 described for us earlier? 14 A: Yes, that's right. 15 Q: And the clean up that you're talking 16 about, is a decommissioning of the property in order for 17 it to be reverted to reserve status, is that fair? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And if I could just ask you lastly, 20 to turn to the last page of that document, see at the top 21 it reads, 22 "Tom's handling of the situation 23 extremely well. I believe he's 24 condemned the move in the sense of 25 saying there's no land claim for the


1 Park, the allegation of it being a) 2 about a burial ground aren't with 3 historical foundations, as far as the 4 Band is aware. And in general there's 5 not a lot of merit to what these guys 6 are doing. They're undermining the 7 process and setting things back. He's 8 calling for action on the part of the 9 Federal Government to resolve and to 10 end all this stuff." 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And again, I take it that the 14 reference here and I appreciate that that isn't your 15 note, but the reference is to Chief Tom Bressette? 16 A: Yes, that's my understanding. 17 Q: And that he was asking for federal 18 involvement in order to try to resolve the situation with 19 respect to the Army Base? 20 A: Yes. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps before I carry 22 on, Commissioner, if I can ask that that be marked as the 23 next Exhibit. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1874 Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1874: Document No. 6000355, Victor 2 Gulewitsch - Field notes to 3 tape: Sept 06, 1995 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Sir, you've told us that part of your 7 function was to act as a liaison between various 8 departments and your Minister, being the then Minister of 9 Indian Affairs, yes? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And these sentiments that were 12 communicated to you at these various meetings with the 13 Chief and Council, with the people in occupation of the 14 Army Base, I take it that you would have carried those 15 back to the -- to your Minister? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: All right. And can you tell us what 18 response, if any, that your Minister would have then 19 taken? 20 A: Well I mentioned to him that I did 21 attend the Band Council meeting. I think that the 22 Minister had actually talked to Chief Bressette a couple 23 of times. He knew what the Chief was thinking and the 24 situation that the Chief was in. 25 He was pretty much aware of what was going


1 on. 2 Q: I'm sorry - he was -- 3 A: He -- 4 Q: -- just let me interrupt here if I 5 may please. I think you were indicating that he was 6 aware of what was going on, is that -- 7 A: Well, he was aware of -- he talked to 8 the Chief, I think a couple of times. 9 Q: Do you know if he had any 10 communication with the people at the Army Base? 11 A: No, no he didn't. 12 Q: And I take it you would have 13 communicated their frustration, I think you agreed with 14 me earlier that they expressed -- 15 A: Oh, yes. 16 Q: -- a certain degree of frustration. 17 A: Yes I communicated that on. 18 Q: Right. And do you know what 19 response -- 20 A: I don't remember -- I don't remember 21 the response from the Minister. 22 Q: All right. Thank you for that. 23 Sir, when you were visiting with DND, I 24 take it that this meeting took place in Ottawa? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: You mentioned -- 2 A: Mr. Westland's office. 3 Q: Was there any discussion about the 4 frustration that had been expressed to you, by either 5 the Chief and Council of Kettle and Stony Point or by the 6 people in occupation of the Army Base, in terms of the 7 negotiation? 8 A: Yes, I -- I mentioned that to Mr. 9 Westland about the way the negotiator conducted himself; 10 that perhaps the negotiator wasn't aware, I'll call it, 11 Indian ways. 12 Q: The negotiator wasn't aware of, 13 again, I'm sorry? 14 A: Of Indian ways. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Indian ways. 16 THE WITNESS: I think he was more 17 businesslike in -- in negotiation style communications. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: Okay.And I wonder if you might just 21 tell us a bit of what it is that you're referring to when 22 you say "Indian ways"? I mean, there obviously might be 23 some that understand that but I'm going to ask you if you 24 might just unpack that for us a bit? 25 A: Well, okay, I'll just go to some of


1 my experiences as a negotiator. When I did a number of 2 specific claims as a -- an analyst I was under other 3 negotiators, federal, and we would simply come into the 4 room, the First Nations were on the other side. We'd 5 unpack our briefcases and sit down and wait for the 6 meeting to start. 7 When I became a negotiator and I came into 8 the room with my people the first thing I would do is 9 greet the Chief, ask the Chief to introduce me to his 10 council, if they were there. But also any members and 11 Elders so I'd have a chance to say a word to them. 12 And at, say, coffee breaks or lunch I 13 would spend my time with the members. So, it wasn't so 14 businesslike that you just sit here, we're going to ask 15 questions. We're going to get answers and then walk out. 16 There has to be some appreciation for 17 the people that you're negotiating with and I felt that 18 from the comment from the First Nations in this case that 19 that was not happening. 20 Q: Can we take it from that, Mr. French, 21 that you attempted to do some relationship building; is 22 that fair? 23 A: That's fair. 24 Q: All right. Sir, we've had evidence 25 here that the Park area, that is the Ipperwash Provincial


1 Park as it was then known, was occupied as of its closing 2 following the long weekend in September of 1995? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Firstly, did you have any advance 5 knowledge or did your ministry have any advance knowledge 6 that this occupation was going to occur? 7 A: No, not at all. 8 Q: Can you tell us when you or your 9 Ministry first became aware that the Park was also being 10 occupied? 11 A: I can't tell you the (transmission 12 failure) other than I guess the Minister became 13 (transmission failure) and asked me to go down. 14 Q: I'm sorry, I'm going -- I'm going to 15 get you to repeat that. "The Minister..." and the 16 transmission broke down? 17 A: The Minister became aware of it and 18 asked me to go down. 19 Q: And when did the Minister become 20 aware and ask you to go down? 21 A: I think I went down there on the 5th 22 of September. So he obviously became aware sometime on 23 the 4th because I would have had to make my (transmission 24 failure). 25 Q: All right, just before I ask you to


1 carry on, Mr. French, and tell us -- 2 A: Could I -- could I hold on? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Could you hold on for a second. We 5 have the technician here. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 7 -- do you want to take a short break? 8 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder if we might 9 just take a very short break, Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we can 11 take a break -- 12 MR. DONALD WORME: We can try to improve 13 the -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we can 15 improve this it's worth taking a short break right now. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Absolutely. Perhaps 17 we should. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's do 19 that. Let's take a short break and see if we can -- 20 MR. DONALD WORME: We're going to take a 21 short break, Mr. French, and we're going to see if we can 22 improve this transmission. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: If you'll just bear 25 with us.


1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 9:49 a.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 10:11 a.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 10 Commissioner, I think that the technical difficulties 11 that we've been experiencing we'll probably continue to 12 experience, so I think technology being what it is we'll 13 just carry on as best we can. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Mr. French, just one (1) point before 17 I continue with my examination. Again the microphone 18 there picks up all kinds of ambient noises including the 19 rustling of papers and such and that may add to some of 20 the breakup in terms of your testimony. 21 I would just ask you to, as best you can, 22 I recognize that it's -- it's difficult on your end as 23 well, all right? 24 A: Yeah, I'm trying to rustle these 25 pages as quietly as I can.


1 Q: Thank you, sir. As I -- we left off 2 you were describing that you understood that the -- your 3 minister became aware of the occupation of Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park on the 5th of September, 1995, and that 5 you had then been given instructions by your Minister to 6 attend at the Ipperwash area? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And part of your duties and functions 9 as you've described earlier was to act as liaison, and I 10 take it that -- that you would continue in that function 11 in your -- in your attendance at the Ipperwash area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: As part of your protocol, sir, I also 14 understand that you would typically when -- especially 15 when dealing with situations that were -- that were of 16 the nature and type as was going on at the Ipperwash area 17 that you would make certain calls in advance to announce 18 to -- to individuals that you were going to be coming? 19 A: That's right. In this case I -- I 20 phoned down to the Band Council Office to let them know I 21 was coming in. And I don't have a recollection of 22 phoning the police but I would think when I phoned the 23 Band Council Office or there seems to be a very distant 24 or vague memory that maybe I was given the number for the 25 police and that I should phone them to let them know that


1 I was -- I was coming in. So I probably did that 2 although I don't -- I can't say for certain that I did. 3 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you if 4 you could turn then to the document at Tab 3 in the brief 5 of documents before you. You'll see that it bears 6 Inquiry Document 1002419. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I can tell you that that document 9 has been marked as Exhibit P-426 and it actually consists 10 of some hundred and eighty-four (184) pages, although I 11 provided you with only an excerpt. Do you see that? 12 And at page -- if you flip over to the 13 second page of that document you'll see that it's marked 14 seventy-two (72) at the top, page 72. 15 Are you with me on that? 16 A: Yes, I do. Yes, I have. 17 Q: And you see it bears the date 06 18 September '95, 19:00 hours, at the very top? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And if you go right to the entry at 21 the bottom of the page, sir, it says 19:45 hours, do -- 22 do you have that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then entry reads: 25 "Tim McCabe wants..."


1 Pardon me, let me -- let me start again. 2 "Tim McCabe called. Wants Mark Wright 3 to call him regarding reviewing 4 evidence for tomorrow. He will be 5 faxing a copy of his injunction for us 6 to try to serve the Natives to let them 7 know what's happening." 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were you aware at that point in 11 time, sir, that there was an effort to obtain an 12 injunction relative to the occupation of the Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You see the next entry just following 16 that, it says -- and it reads: 17 "Dale Linton received information 18 Ronald French of Indian Affairs is 19 going onto the Park then is supposed to 20 come here after to update us." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes, I see it. 23 Q: And there seems to be a suggestion 24 that you would be attending to the -- first of all, that 25 you would be attending to the Park.


1 A: Yeah -- no -- I was never going to 2 the Park. I was only going back into the Federal 3 compound, the Army Base. I had no intention of going 4 into the Park and this entry that says: 5 "Is supposed to come here after and 6 update us." 7 The only thing I can think of there, is 8 that when I was going in, I would say, Well I'm going 9 into the Federal compound only. And then I would simply 10 report back to them that I'm leaving the compound now. 11 I had no intention of updating the police 12 on -- on anything. 13 Q: Do we take from that sir, that you 14 had no arrangement with OPP or others to provide 15 information that you would obtain within the Camp, as you 16 put it? 17 A: No, my only intention is to -- was to 18 go and tell them that I'm leaving now and I'm no longer 19 in the -- at the Military Base. 20 I have to make it very clear here, my boss 21 here is Ron Irwin at this time and Brad Morris and any 22 information that I obtained was simply to go to them. 23 They were the people that I was reporting to. 24 Q: Thank you for that. On September the 25 6th, Mr. French, you did travel to the Ipperwash area?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you attended, as I understand it, 3 firstly at the Kettle and Stoney Point Band office? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You spoke with Chief Bressette and 6 his Council? 7 A: No, I spoke to Chief Bressette and I 8 think Victor was there, as well. 9 Q: And when you say Victor, that's 10 Victor Gulewitsch? 11 A: Gulewitsch, yes. There may have been 12 one Band Council member there, but I remember just is the 13 Chief and Victor. 14 Q: Right. And did you apprize the Chief 15 of what your intentions were, that is to, as you put it, 16 to go into the Military Base? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Can you tell -- can you tell us what, 19 if anything, you were told as a result of informing Chief 20 Bressette of your intentions? 21 A: I don't recall too much of his 22 reaction. He -- the only thing that did come up was that 23 he mentioned Dudley George and that -- that was it. 24 Q: All right. And do you recall the 25 context in which he mentioned --


1 A: Yeah -- 2 Q: I'm sorry go ahead. 3 A: Yeah, and I think I may have asked if 4 -- if the Band Member that accompanied me previous to my 5 visit to the compound was available. 6 Q: And do you recall who that was? 7 Who was the individual that accompanied 8 you on your previous visit to the compound? 9 A: No, I can't remember the name. 10 Q: I understand, sir, that you were 11 carrying then and using a cell phone? 12 A: I had a cell phone with me, yes. 13 Q: Right. Perhaps you -- 14 A: But I -- I -- sorry, my recollection 15 though also that was -- as I was coming, driving towards 16 Kettle and Stoney Point, I did pass a number of police 17 vehicles and they seemed to have communication equipment 18 on them, like satellite dish and things like that. 19 And I was thinking at that time because of 20 what I heard, experiences regarding Oka and Kanawake, was 21 that they had listening devices or jamming devices and 22 even though I had a cell phone I -- I can remember my 23 grave intention of -- of using it and calling the 24 Minister and letting him know of any details because I 25 thought it would be overheard or jammed.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: But I did have a cell phone, yes. 3 Q: I understand that you did make it to 4 the Army Camp. You mentioned that there were -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- that there was a police presence 7 along the way? 8 A: Oh, yes. 9 Q: Beyond what you've described for us, 10 can you tell us anything further in terms of the number 11 of officers or beyond the type of equipment that you've 12 already described? 13 A: Well, I meant, with that driving down 14 I was actually quite shocked at the number of vehicles 15 that I saw that appeared to be almost Military on the 16 road. And then when I got to the checkpoint so that I 17 could turn into the Military Camp I was stopped at the 18 checkpoint and there was a number of Constables there. 19 And, again, I was quite surprised at -- at 20 the -- how -- how they were outfitted; almost like riot 21 gear kind of things. And I did see their weaponry and I 22 was quite surprised at how much there was. 23 Q: Were you stopped or did you have to 24 stop on your way to the Army Camp at any checkpoints 25 along the way? We've had some evidence that there were


1 various checkpoints? 2 A: That was -- yes, that was at one of 3 the checkpoints that I was stopped and I told them who I 4 was. And I gave them, I think, several of them my cards, 5 that I was a Minister's assistant and it also had the 6 Minister's crest on it; that type of thing, or the -- 7 Canada's crest. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: So they -- who I was and they knew 10 where I was going. 11 Q: And can you tell us what happened 12 when you arrived at the Camp? 13 A: Yes, once again I was -- I was met by 14 this same group of families that I had met with previous 15 and I went in and -- and had a chat with them. 16 Do you want me to go on and explain a 17 little more about that? 18 Q: Yes, please. 19 A: Yeah. I -- when I did sit down with 20 them, one of the things I did mention that I was, you 21 know, quite surprised at the -- at the police presence 22 that were there and, again, how the police were 23 outfitted. And I did mention to them my concern over 24 what I saw. 25 Q: And what was your concern,


1 specifically? 2 A: There was just so many police and 3 there was -- appeared to be so many guns. I -- at that 4 time my concerns were not that there would be shootings 5 or anything like that, my concern was maybe there could 6 be fights or skirmishes or scuffles and people get hurt 7 in those things. 8 Q: Did you notice the presence of women 9 and children at the Army Camp when you were -- attended? 10 A: Oh, yes. Yes. 11 Q: Okay. During the course of -- 12 A: Now, I did ask when I -- sorry, 13 counsellor. 14 Q: Sorry. Sorry, carry on? 15 A: Yeah, I did mention to them when I 16 was in the compound, I asked about who was -- who was at 17 the Park and I asked if there were, you know, teenagers 18 and children there and -- and I mentioned to them that 19 maybe, you know, those people, the teenagers and the 20 children, should -- should be taken out of there. 21 And, again, my concern was more I thought 22 there could be fights and, again, people get hurt in 23 fights. I -- I have to admit I noticed even though there 24 was great police presence there I saw much more Military 25 and police presence in Kanawake. So that was my


1 experience that I -- I -- I had. 2 I never thought that there would be a 3 situation where there would actually be shooting. The 4 only thing I thought was there could be a fight or two 5 (2) or a fight break out or something like that. 6 Q: And did you communicate that concern 7 to the people you were meeting with in the Army Base? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Do you recall who the -- who the 10 people were that you were meeting with? 11 You mentioned that it was the same people 12 that you had -- you had met -- 13 A: Yeah, I don't recall the names. I -- 14 I remember Rose Manning. I remember Maynard Travis 15 George. 16 Q: Mr. French, I can tell you that Rose 17 Manning testified here on April the 7th of -- of 2005 and 18 she had recalled this meeting with you on that occasion. 19 She did not -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- recognize you as -- as an employee 22 of the Department of Indian Affairs. 23 Did you identify yourself to this group? 24 A: Oh, yes, yes. In fact I gave several 25 people my -- my card. And in fact, you know, afterwards


1 or maybe even during the summer, I did receive a call at 2 the Minister's office from Maynard George regarding, I 3 think, a document that he was -- he was looking for. 4 So yes, they -- they certainly knew who I 5 was and -- and had my -- my number. 6 Q: All right. And do you know what time 7 this meeting would have occurred? 8 A: When I got into the -- the Military 9 Base? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall the 12 time I actually arrived. What I do recall though was I 13 was already in the barracks talking with them, and I 14 believe it was eight o'clock. So I was there earlier 15 than eight o'clock. 16 At eight o'clock somebody came in and -- 17 and said there's something happening near the gates so we 18 all rushed out, I got into this rented van that I had and 19 I think a couple other people jumped in with me, and we 20 headed towards the gates and I saw people coming from all 21 different directions heading that way. 22 And the people that I saw were carrying -- 23 these are First Nations people -- carrying sticks. I saw 24 maybe some people bend down to pick up stones or 25 something like that and what I saw up ahead of me were


1 what appeared to be police cars flying down the road I 2 think headed towards the -- the beach area. 3 Q: Heading towards the beach area? 4 A: And at that time too -- pardon me? 5 Q: Heading towards the beach area; is 6 that what you said? 7 A: Well, I think -- I think that road 8 that they were going down, I think that's where that road 9 goes, so. 10 Q: Just before I ask you to carry on 11 from there, Mr. French, just with respect to this meeting 12 did -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- did you take any notes during that 15 meeting? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. And was that your 18 practice? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: As I mentioned earlier Ms. Manning, 21 when she testified, she indicated that she was in a 22 meeting and -- and her recollection was that it was 23 sometime around 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. Does that help you at 24 all? 25 A: That I arrived?


1 Q: Well, that -- that -- 2 A: Do you mean -- 3 Q: -- that she was involved in a meeting 4 with you? 5 A: Oh, yes, I -- I'm not -- again I -- I 6 was there before eight o'clock so it could have been 7 around 6:00 or 7:00 that I -- I arrived there. It could 8 have been earlier too. 9 Q: She also indicated -- 10 A: But I -- I met with all -- all the 11 people, I didn't meet with individuals. 12 Q: She also indicated, Mr. French, that 13 you were -- and perhaps I can just read to you some of 14 her testimony which occurs at page 94 of that testimony 15 from the 7th of April of 2005. The question was put to 16 her, and this conversation you're describing about the 17 latter: 18 "Other than the land claim issue did 19 that happen? What time in the evening 20 did that happen? Was that at the 21 beginning of the meeting or was it --" 22 And the answer: 23 "Well, you know he was talking and -- 24 talking and trying to get us out of 25 there in a calm and gentle voice and


1 what he was going to do. And then -- 2 and then later he's, you know, kept 3 watching the clock and talking to 4 someone and then he said we had to get 5 out of there right then, but that's the 6 night Bonnie came after most of the 7 people there." 8 Does that assist you, Mr. French, in 9 recalling anything that you might have spoken about? 10 A: No, I -- I do remember saying that, 11 again, asking about the Park and -- and that maybe if 12 there were teenagers and children there they -- they 13 shouldn't be there in case there was a -- a fight break 14 out. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: As -- as far as me saying we had to 17 get out right now, no, I -- I wouldn't have. If this is 18 getting to that I had some pre-knowledge that there was 19 something going to happen that evening, absolutely not. 20 Absolutely not. 21 Q: Aside from them confirming that there 22 were perhaps children or teenagers at the Park, were you 23 able to -- did you understand who else might be there? 24 A: Again, just the name, Dudley George 25 came up.


1 Q: You've described then, sir that 2 around 8:00 that there seemed to be something going on 3 outside, you rushed outside to go and -- 4 A: Yes -- 5 Q: -- see what was going on? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Perhaps you can just carry on from 8 there and tell us what happened? 9 A: Well, again there seemed to be -- I 10 saw, it appeared to be the tail end of police cars 11 heading down that road and I think that's the road that 12 leads towards the beach area. 13 And I did look around. Again ,I saw 14 people carrying sticks, picking up stones. On the First 15 Nations side I saw no weaponry whatsoever. 16 Q: And I was just going to ask you that. 17 I understand that you had left the compound at some point 18 shortly after that? 19 A: I left at around 11;00 -- eleven 20 o'clock. Maybe I'll -- I'll talk a little bit about 21 that. Because I felt that my cell could be overheard or 22 jammed, I was looking at the circumstances and I thought 23 it best that I head back to Ottawa and speak to the 24 Minister. 25 But, what I wanted to tell the Minister


1 was that the season had closed, it's September, there's 2 great, great police presence there, that I understand 3 that there are still tourists or vacationers in the area 4 and that the next weekend was coming on, and there still 5 may be some opportunity that even though it appeared the 6 season was over, vacationers may want to use the area. 7 So I guess in my mind, what I was going to 8 tell the Minister was that my real concern is the amount 9 of police that were there. But, in fact that in this 10 situation, as far as any outside influences regarding the 11 Park that this was probably a situation where it's 12 getting September, the evenings are going to start 13 getting cold and I thought this thing would eventually 14 just move on. 15 Q: I'm sorry, that this -- that this 16 would what? 17 A: It would eventually, the evenings 18 would get so cold that there would be less and less 19 people at the Park and that the season had closed. 20 Again my concern was the amount of police 21 that were there and I did want to relay that to the 22 Minister. And so I was heading back the next day to go 23 back to Ottawa and talk to the Minister. 24 Q: And I understand you, as you 25 mentioned, you left the compound at about 11:00 you told


1 us? 2 A: Yes, and I left at 11:00 and again my 3 remembrance of that is that I really had no intention of 4 reporting or talking to the police and that I was heading 5 right back to London to go tell them and get on a plane 6 the next morning to go to see the Minister and Brad 7 Morse. 8 I did go through where the area of where I 9 thought the checkpoint was that I came through when I 10 entered and I slowed down because it was very dark and I 11 couldn't see very much. And I almost came to a stop and 12 then I don't remember seeing someone. 13 I think I could see vaguely in the dark 14 somebody, but it certainly wasn't clear. And I think 15 they may have asked me what my name was or something and 16 I said Ron French and I'm leaving. That was about the 17 extent of it and they let me through. 18 Q: And when you say, they, who are you 19 talking about? 20 A: Well, I guess it was -- well, no it 21 was the police. 22 Q: What's the next thing that happens, 23 Mr. French? 24 A: Well, then I head to London into the 25 hotel room and it was whatever time it takes to get from


1 -- from Ipperwash to London, so it was -- it must have 2 been around midnight or past midnight. So I wasn't going 3 to speak to the Minister until the next day. It was too 4 late to phone him, even though now I had a land line and 5 I didn't have to -- to worry about the cell. 6 Then I got a call at two o'clock in the 7 morning and it was the Minister phoning me and -- and he 8 was telling me that there was a shooting at Ipperwash, 9 and -- and that if I knew anything about it and I said, 10 Well, no, I'm not even -- you know, I asked him, I think, 11 what time this may have occurred, because I left at 11:00 12 and he didn't know. 13 And I -- I had a number for -- and maybe 14 it was the Minister who gave it to me or I don't know, 15 but I did have a number for the police and maybe I even 16 just looked it up in the phone book. And I told them who 17 I was and if there was any other information regarding 18 the shooting at Ipperwash and -- and there wasn't. 19 And that was it for that evening. And 20 then I think then the next morning I then phoned into the 21 police again. I phoned into the compound and I think 22 arrangements were made for me to go to the Town of Forest 23 to meet with -- with the police. 24 Q: I'll ask you to turn to the notes 25 that I had referred you to earlier, Mr. French, at Tab 3.


1 And if you go three (3) pages in on the brief that I've 2 provided you there's, at page 97; do you see that? 3 A: Yes, I see it. 4 Q: And it's not dated but I can tell you 5 that these are scribe notes that were taken on the 7th of 6 September, 1995. And do you see the entry -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- at 8:40 hours just at the bottom 9 of the page? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It says, "CRO Archibald." I 12 understand that to be the radio operator: 13 "Advises --" 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: "-- Dale Linton that he has Ron 16 French, Ministry of Indian Affairs, on 17 the telephone. Dale Linton to speak 18 with him. Dale Linton advises Ron 19 French that someone will be here to 20 meet with him. Conversation ends at 21 8:45 hours." 22 Is that the conversation that you've just 23 told us about? 24 A: Yes, I believe it is. 25 Q: Okay. If you can turn to the next


1 page at page 98? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Just firstly with respect to the 4 entry at the top of the page at 08:47 hours, it says: 5 "A Bonnie Mercredi from Indian Affairs 6 calling every fifteen (15) minutes. 7 Dale Linton wants her to be advised to 8 contact the media post." 9 Do you know who that -- do you know who 10 Bonnie Mercredi is? 11 A: No, I don't. Other than I presume it 12 may be somebody from the -- certainly not the Minister's 13 Office but it could have been somebody from the -- the 14 regional office in Toronto -- 15 Q: All right. 16 A: -- or it could be a communications 17 person from Indian Affairs. 18 Q: Thank you. You see the entry at 19 08:58 hours? 20 "Dale Linton to Jim Gordon, discussion 21 of Ron French, Office of the Ministry 22 of Indian Affairs coming here to meet 23 someone at 11:00 hours." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And is that the arrangement that you


1 had made that you would attend to the Town of Forest? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if you flip over to the next 4 entry or the next page rather, it's page 110 at the top; 5 are you with me? 6 A: Yes, I am. 7 Q: You'll see the entry at 13:10 hours 8 at the bottom of the page and it carries on the next -- 9 to the next page? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: "CRO Archibald advises that Ron 12 French, Indian Affairs, is here. Jim 13 Gordon advises to have him escorted 14 in." 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you see the entry at 13:12 hours: 18 "Ron French, Indian Affairs, escorted 19 to Command Trailer." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the next entry at 13:16 hours: 22 "Jim Gordon leaves with Ron French, 23 Indian Affairs, to talk." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the next entry of relevance is at


1 13:31 hours: 2 "Jim Gordon returns from talking with 3 Ron French, Indian Affairs." 4 So it seems to me that what we have 5 recorded there is some fifteen (15) minutes where you 6 would have been in conversation with Jim Gordon? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you recall that conversation, 9 sir? Can you tell us what happened and what information, 10 if any, you received? 11 A: Yes, I arrived at the Town of Forest 12 and it was on, I guess, their -- their main street. And 13 then there was a side street where the Command Post was 14 set up. And it was a fair distance, I don't know how 15 many yards; 300 hundred yards from the -- from the main 16 road I guess along a side road or maybe even more. 17 And I was met on the road after I got out 18 of the van and -- and then I was told I would be taken to 19 the Command Post and what they did was, I remember four - 20 - I'm about six foot one (6'1") and I remember four (4) 21 very large policemen, there was two (2) in front of me 22 and two (2) in back of me and I was told to walk in the 23 middle of them and not to break any rank and stay in the 24 middle and they were going to take me down, walk me down 25 to the Command Post.


1 And so we started the -- the walk and I 2 looked at either side and there was certainly a number of 3 different type of, I don't know what you would call them 4 tactical teams, that were set up along the road in 5 different types of camouflage and -- and paint and 6 everything. 7 And we got -- we got to the Command Post 8 and I -- I have to admit in my mind I was wondering why 9 do I have to walk in this sort of rank with these two (2) 10 huge officers in front of me and two (2) huge officers in 11 back of me? Why can't we just walk down the road, 12 however, whatever the situation was. 13 I then got to the -- to the Command Post 14 trailer, I guess it was a trailer, and I walked in and I 15 -- I looked and I -- I swear I saw all kinds of pictures 16 on -- on the wall, on people's desk and as I came in and 17 people looked up and saw me, I can't remember how many 18 people were in the trailer, a lot of these pictures were 19 being taken off the wall or flipped over on people's 20 desk. 21 I thought I saw a picture of myself, but 22 then again I'm a long-haired, dark-skinned person and I'm 23 sure there was many long-haired, dark-skinned persons 24 that they had pictures of so I thought I saw myself but I 25 -- I can't be sure.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: And then I had -- when I was in the 3 Command Trailer I was trying to get information as to 4 when this happened and what were the circumstances around 5 it so eventually I could let the -- the Minister know in 6 case there was information that was different from 7 already what was coming through the media or what the 8 Minister may have been -- may be being told in Ottawa. 9 And I wasn't getting really any 10 information and they seemed very reluctant to tell me 11 anything and seemed quite sceptical about who I was, that 12 even though I had given them my card and it wouldn't have 13 taken -- it wouldn't have taken much to phone the 14 Minister's office to confirm who I was. But the fifteen 15 (15) minutes I can't remember too much of the 16 conversation other than I was trying to get information 17 and they weren't giving too much and that's it. 18 Then I was -- I was told that I could go I 19 think to the town of Grand Bend and there was a police 20 station there and that I -- I could go there. So that 21 was going to be my next visit. 22 Q: All right. Did you go there? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: You -- 25 A: And -- sorry.


1 Q: No, no, carry on. 2 A: I did go there and it seemed to me at 3 the -- an official from the Ontario Regional Office of 4 Indian Affairs was there. I -- I believe John Donnelly 5 was there but I -- again ten (10) years I -- I may be 6 getting that mixed up but I believe he was there. There 7 was somebody else from Indian Affairs there. 8 And again I went to visit the police 9 station and -- and it was not much different from -- from 10 the Command Post. I was asking the same questions to see 11 if I could get more information for the Minister around 12 the shooting, around the incident, and I really wasn't 13 given anything other than I think that was already given 14 out by media. 15 Q: Did you make any attempts, sir, to 16 attend at either -- either the -- the Army Camp or the 17 compound as you've described it earlier or Kettle and 18 Stony Point First Nation? 19 A: No, I was -- I believe I was told at 20 that point it would be very difficult to -- to get into 21 that area now. 22 Q: And after you left the Grand Bend 23 Detachment failing to obtain the kind of the information 24 I think as you were seeking, what did you do? 25 A: Well I headed out to -- to get


1 something to eat. I think I ended up getting a slice of 2 pizza somewhere. And I was going to sit down and just 3 gather my thoughts and decide what -- what I should do. 4 I did phone back now at that point, as I 5 believed there wasn't much happening and they could -- if 6 somebody wanted to listen into my conversation that was 7 fine. 8 I did use my cell phone. I phoned back to 9 the Minister's office and I mentioned to them that I've 10 tried to gather some information, but there seems to be 11 not much that they're telling me and that I'm probably 12 going to now make arrangements to head back to Ottawa. 13 And -- 14 Q: And you did, in fact, return to 15 Ottawa? 16 A: Yes I did. But, I certainly believe 17 as I was driving around the Town of Grand Bend looking 18 for something -- a place to eat, that the police were 19 following me. 20 And I think I did also make a cell phone 21 call to my -- my ex-wife was living in Richmond, in 22 British Columbia, and I wanted to say hi to my son. 23 Q: All right. And did you have any 24 thoughts, sir about what you had learned about the 25 shooting and can you tell us what was going on, in your


1 mind at that point? 2 A: Other than I was shocked at what 3 happened, again that was furthest from my mind that 4 there'd be shooting. I didn't see any -- that there 5 would be anything that would lead that way, that it would 6 get so serious. 7 If I thought, again, there was any trouble 8 it would be a scuffle or something. So I was still kind 9 of in shock as to what happened here. 10 Q: All right. Mr. French, you'd 11 mentioned earlier that in your various attendances either 12 at -- with the Chief and Council of Kettle and Stoney 13 Point First Nation or at the compound, were you ever 14 advised that there was a burial ground within the 15 Ipperwash Provincial Park boundaries? 16 A: Not previous. 17 Q: Okay. And I understand -- 18 A: Sorry, within the Provincial Park not 19 the -- not the Military Base. 20 Q: Yes, the Provincial Park? 21 A: The Provincial Park, no. No, I don't 22 recall that other than when I think at the -- when they 23 did -- when the -- there was an occupation of the Park 24 because of the burial site, that was the only time, but 25 not previous I don't recall.


1 Q: I understand that you attended back 2 to the area a few weeks later with Minister Irwin and you 3 met with First Nations politicians? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I provided you, sir, with a 6 document, you'll see that it bears Inquiry document 7 number 1001594 and it's been marked as Exhibit P-106 in 8 these proceedings. There should be some five (5) pages 9 or so. 10 A: I'm just going to take a second to 11 try to find that. 12 Q: Right, there's a number of different 13 Inquiry document numbers on that. The one (1) I'm 14 particularly interested in and I'll have you comment on, 15 is marked 1001593. And it seems to be -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- you see that -- it seems to be a 18 federal crest at the top. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It says Department of Mines and 21 Resources, Indian Affairs Branch. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And had you seen that document 24 before, sir? 25 A: Before, meaning the -- like that


1 summer of or -- 2 Q: Well, perhaps you can just tell us, 3 when was the first time that you'd seen this, and what if 4 any involvement did you have in this, in obtaining or -- 5 A: Yes, while we were preparing to make 6 the visit to the Ipperwash area, being the Minister and 7 others -- I guess I'll go back and let you know that when 8 we did go down to the Ipperwash area, there was myself, 9 another Minister's assistance, Miko Nicholas (phonetic), 10 there was the Minister, there was Elijah Harper, there 11 was Gordon Shanks, who was Assistant Deputy Minister at 12 the time. 13 Ovide Mercredi, the National Chief, was 14 there. Pam Morris (phonetic), Chief of Staff for the 15 Minister. And there was also a -- a General from 16 National Defence and just offhand I can't recall his name 17 though. It's a very simple name but I can't recall it. 18 And so we all went down to -- to attend 19 these meetings and discussions with the -- with the 20 leadership of the First Nations there. Then while we 21 were preparing for that -- to go down that day there was 22 a meeting with the Minister and Senior Managers of Indian 23 Affairs. And I guess there was some question as to 24 whether we should attend or not. 25 I -- I believe at the time there was a


1 number of threats against the Minister and perhaps his 2 entourage and I think there was just discussion of when 3 we go down there what -- how do we prepare for this. 4 Not, the fact that the -- the -- not the threats but 5 what has happened down there. 6 And while we were in the meeting the door 7 opened and someone said that they have a document -- they 8 found a document that says there is a burial site in that 9 area. And I believe the person who -- who brought it in 10 was an official named Hugh Ryan (phonetic) but I believe 11 the document was found by an official named Ken Ray 12 (phonetics). And, again, the way the -- I think this was 13 found at the archives, these documents. 14 And when the Indian Affairs records were 15 being microfilmed back in 1973 they were done in a very 16 haphazard way. The technician who microfilmed simply 17 took files out of boxes and started microfilming the 18 pages. It's -- and there was no organization as to how 19 the microfilming took place of -- of all the Indian 20 Affairs records. 21 People - researchers have made very good 22 business and livelihood out of being able to find 23 documents in -- in the Indian Affairs records because 24 it's so hard to access -- try to figure out where all the 25 documents are.


1 If you were looking at an -- Indian 2 Affairs records at the archives you would get out a reel, 3 a volume, and as you go through it you got about ten (10) 4 pages of same issues that had happened at Kettle and 5 Stoney Point, and then all of a sudden it goes on, eighty 6 (80) pages of something that happened at Kanawake, and 7 then it goes on for other pages on something that 8 happened to another reserve. 9 It's very difficult to find documents -- 10 historical documents. It usually takes quite a long 11 time, simply because the way they were microfilmed. 12 But, again, Ryan (phonetic) did come into 13 the room -- the meeting room and said he had these 14 documents that supports that there is a burial site at -- 15 at the Park. 16 Q: Right. And we -- 17 A: And that's the first time we knew. 18 Q: And we understand that that was 19 shared with the Government of Ontario on or around 20 September 14th; does that accord with your recollection? 21 A: No. I -- I -- I don't -- I wouldn't 22 have been a part of that, so I -- I can't comment on 23 that. 24 Q: Sir, we also understand that the 25 Minister was involved in a memorandum of understanding


1 that was signed as between the Federal Government and the 2 Chippewas of Kettle and Stoney Point. 3 Do you recall there being negotiations 4 with respect to a memorandum of understanding? 5 A: Yes, well, I believe it would have 6 happened that -- that day that we were meeting with -- 7 I'm just looking for the document now. 8 Q: And there's a document that I 9 provided to you. It's Inquiry Document 1004285 and it's 10 been marked as Exhibit P-46. 11 A: I'm -- I'm just going to have to take 12 a second to find that, sir? 13 Q: Yes, sir, certainly. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Okay. Yes, I have it in front of me 18 now. 19 Q: And you see on the second page of 20 that it's dated September the 13th -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And does that assist you in terms of 25 the date that you had met -- does that refresh your


1 memory that that was the date that you would have met? 2 A: Yes, that is -- that's the date. And 3 yes, -- and of course the -- the general that I was 4 referring to was John Adams from National Defence. 5 Q: Sir, I'm -- I'm essentially through 6 with -- with the examination for you for now. There will 7 others that I suspect will have some questions of you, 8 and perhaps we might anticipate that one (1) of the 9 questions that probably will be asked is why did the 10 Federal Government not become involved when you were 11 requested to do so earlier before this matter became a 12 crisis? 13 A: Do you want me to -- to respond to 14 that now? 15 Q: If you could, please. 16 A: Well, I'm -- I'm not sure if you're 17 getting to what my role was and how my role was in this, 18 but I'll take you through it anyhow. 19 At the time I was a -- a Special Assistant 20 to the Minister and as in -- in the bureaucracy, the way 21 it -- its dues are carried out, a Minister's Assistant 22 would probably be -- looked on as an Officer Level 5 or 23 6. And I'll use that same ranking to go through the 24 senior management. 25 A Director at Indian Affairs would be in


1 the same ranking, probably an Officer 9 and 10. A 2 Director General would be Officer 10/11. An ADM, 11/12 3 and so on up to the Deputy Minister. 4 As an Assistant to the Minister my -- my 5 role again was more of liaison, as a conduit between 6 senior managers, Federal officials, First Nations, 7 Aboriginal people, to the Minister. The one (1) thing I 8 had that was different from most officials is that I 9 worked in the Minister's office and I did have some 10 access to the Minister. I certainly didn't have twenty- 11 four (24) hour access to him. 12 Also I brought the information or 13 questions from the Minister into the Department or even 14 to First Nations chiefs; things of that nature. 15 When I visited in the Ipperwash area the - 16 - the couple of times and I came back with -- with 17 information I think some people said, Well, why -- why 18 didn't you do more? Why didn't you light a fire under 19 someone to -- to say get this thing done, look what's 20 happening here. 21 I did not have the authorities of a senior 22 manager, of a Deputy Minister or an ADM or a DG. My role 23 was simply that of -- of try to gather some information, 24 give the information to the Minister so that more -- more 25 educated decisions can be made.


1 There was no way in my role as a -- as an 2 Assistant to the Minister that I could phone up a -- a 3 senior manager, an ADM or a DG and say, You better get 4 working on this. That was not my role as -- as an 5 Assistant to the Minister. 6 In fact if there's any criticism regarding 7 the Minister's assistants even to this day, is that they 8 would say -- senior managers might say something like, 9 Well, that Ron French thinks he's the Minister, or Ron 10 French is calling down here asking you to do things 11 meaning they're the officials. 12 And in fact that's not what the Minister 13 wants, he's just doing that on his own. So we have to be 14 very careful as assistants, that whenever we talk to the 15 department senior managers or officials, we're there, 16 we're doing that, because the Minister has instructed us 17 to do that. 18 There may be briefing notes or other 19 information that's passed up to the Minister. The 20 Minister gets it and may ask me as assistant, Could you 21 get a little more information on the same subject. 22 And then, yes, then I would have that -- I 23 have the Minister's permission then to phone an official 24 and say, you know, You wrote the briefing note, is there 25 something else that the Minister needs here, that maybe


1 it's not in the briefing note? 2 So when I brought back information into 3 the Minister's office regarding what was happening there, 4 that's -- that's my role. That's the end of my role. 5 And then it's up to others to make decision as to what 6 happens from there. 7 Q: All right. Thank you, Mr. French. 8 Mr. French, we have afforded other witnesses an 9 opportunity to share any observations or comments that 10 they might like to make and I want to ask you if you 11 might have anything to say to the Inquiry, particularly 12 to our Commissioner that might assist him in the 13 discharge of his mandate? 14 A: Yes, I would like to address the 15 Commission and thank you for this opportunity. 16 I'm going to make my presentation, and 17 within the presentation I'm probably going to tell a 18 couple of stories, so I would appreciate that the people 19 there have the patience to listen to the stories. 20 I was born and raised on the Kanawake 21 Reserve and I left there when I was seventeen (17) or 22 eighteen (18) for a better education and job. And so for 23 the next thirty-seven/thirty-eight (37/38) years I've 24 been in Ottawa. 25 But, Ottawa is only two (2) hours away


1 from my Reserve in Kanawake, so just about every weekend 2 even though I had left the Reserve, I was home just about 3 every weekend for those thirty-seven/thirty-eight (37/38) 4 years. 5 One thing that helped me through those 6 years was the fact that I had a home to go to, I had a 7 Reserve. Not just the house that was on the Reserve that 8 my mother was in that I grew up in, but the Reserve 9 itself is home. 10 And now the stories. When my little boy 11 was born he was not well. He was fragile. And when we 12 brought him to the house in Ottawa, he was very, very 13 small and the feedings for him for his little allotment 14 of milk were every two (2) hours. But, he was so small 15 it would take an hour and forty-five (45) minutes for him 16 to go through a feeding. 17 So basically we -- my ex-wife and my wife 18 and I were awake with him for twenty-four (24) hours to 19 make sure he was fed. 20 I would get home from work and probably at 21 6:00 I would take my little boy and start with these 22 feedings. And I would do that until 4:00 in the morning 23 and then at 4:00 my wife would take over and I would try 24 to get about three (3) hours of sleep and then head off 25 to work.


1 So night after night I'd be walking with 2 him, alone, downstairs, feeding this little boy with 3 these little allotment of milk. Every now and then he 4 would startle awake and his eyes would get very big and 5 he'd be looking around. It was almost as if a little 6 jolt went through him. 7 And being a first time parent it would 8 just scare the heck out of me that something has happened 9 to him, that maybe he's having a stroke or he's having a 10 seizure. And I wondered, should I get him to a hospital 11 or what? At times I didn't know what to do. 12 So I asked my mom about that. I said, 13 here's the situation, I'm all alone walking with him and 14 he does this, he'll startle awake and look and look 15 around and it scares me. And she says, she says, No 16 don't be scared. She says, That's all your grandmothers 17 and your grandfathers. They're all in the room with you. 18 They've come to welcome the baby into the family. 19 And all the women, they're all adorned in 20 their best dress and they have long beautiful hair and 21 they're beautiful women. And the men are tall and some 22 of them are dressed like warriors. And they have their 23 best -- best attire on as well. Some have very long hair 24 and feathers. Some -- some have scalp lock and maybe 25 paint.


1 And all your grandmothers and all your 2 grandfathers are there to greet the baby and she says, 3 when the baby startles it's your grandmother bending over 4 to kiss the baby on the forehead or on the cheek or maybe 5 your grandfather has taken the baby's hand. 6 And when the baby startles, awakens, the 7 baby can see those people. He can see the grandmothers 8 and the grandfathers. You can't, but the baby can. And 9 you think you're all alone downstairs with the baby when, 10 in fact, the room is full. It's full of all your people. 11 And if there was something wrong with the 12 baby you would know because your grandmothers would tell 13 you. You would get this overwhelming feeling that you 14 have to get the baby to the hospital. So she says, don't 15 be scared, you're not alone. 16 And then later she relayed a story to me. 17 She was a nurse -- a nurse's aide at the hospital in 18 Kanawake until she was in her '70's, before she retired. 19 But she could speak an old Mohawk dialect and she told me 20 that one day she went into a room and there was a very 21 elderly lady there in her mid-'90's, and this elderly 22 lady had reverted back to Mohawk in her later years. 23 She was talking to my mom and it was only 24 my mom and her in the room. And then she started 25 speaking past my mom and she mentioned a name in Mohawk


1 and my mom recognized it and she said, Could you repeat 2 that name? And the name she mentioned was my 3 grandfather; not my mother's father, but my father's 4 father. 5 So my -- this was, you know, by relation 6 of marriage, my mother's father. But the name, my mom 7 hadn't heard the Mohawk name in decades and she said to 8 the woman, You knew, and I'll say the name in English, 9 Steven French, and the woman said, Well, yes I do, he's 10 standing right behind you. 11 And there was no way that elderly woman 12 made the connection between my mom and my -- my 13 grandfather. So for me that just reinforced the fact 14 that the spirit of our grandmothers and grandfathers are 15 there, they exist, they're real. 16 And when I go home over those years to the 17 reserve, the spirits of my grandmothers and my 18 grandfathers, I believe they're there. They're on that 19 land in Kanawake. I feel comfortable. I know my people 20 are there and they've been there for generations. 21 And even today, my mom has passed away now 22 for a year and a half, when I go out to the reserve I 23 say, Hi mom, I'm here. Then I also say, in my mind as 24 I'm driving in, grandmothers and grandfathers please 25 receive me, I'm coming in there, I'm visiting today with


1 -- with my son. 2 The people in Ipperwash didn't have that. 3 That was taken away from them. They didn't have the home 4 to go to. That military base -- well, it was taken over 5 as a military base. But the spirits of their 6 grandmothers and their grandfathers were there all that 7 time, all those years. People never thought of that at 8 the time. 9 Their generations of family were there, 10 they're on that land, whether it was a military base or 11 reserve, but for them that's their home. The spirit of 12 the grandmothers and grandfathers must have been so hurt, 13 so grieving that they couldn't receive their children for 14 all those years. 15 And if there's anything I can say to the 16 Commission is that in your recommendations I hope more 17 thought is given any time land is taken from aboriginal 18 people or Indian people, it seems so easy to take the 19 land and just so difficult to give it back. But there's 20 more than just the land there, there's the spirit of the 21 people there. 22 And I'll end my presentation there. Thank 23 you. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 25 Mr. French.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps, Commissioner, 4 we can canvass the parties as to who wishes to cross- 5 examine and perhaps an estimate as to -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: -- what they can 8 estimate. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 10 have any questions for this Witness? Please indicate in 11 the usual way. I can't see. 12 Ms. Jones...? No. 13 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? No. 14 I guess the Province. Yes, Ms. Twohig...? 15 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Five (5) minutes. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Five (5) minutes for 17 Ms. Twohig. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 19 McAleer...? 20 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Five (5) minutes. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Five (5) minutes for 22 Ms. McAleer. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Goodman...? 25 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Five (5) minutes.


1 MR. DONALD WORME: And five (5) minutes 2 for Mr. Goodman as well. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Klippenstein...? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thirty (30) to 6 forty (40) minutes. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) to forty 8 (40) minutes for Mr. Klippenstein. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 10 Rosenthal...? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thirty (30) 12 minutes. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) minutes 14 for Mr. Rosenthal. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 16 Ross...? 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps twenty (20) 18 minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 20 minutes? And -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) minutes for 22 Mr. Ross. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Mr. 24 Roy...? 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: About twenty (20)


1 minutes also. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's a 3 chance that we will be finished before noon but I think 4 I'm not going to rush it. We'll take a break. 5 We'll take a break now even though we had 6 one this morning because of the technical glitch, but I 7 think we'll take a morning break now and we'll come back 8 and begin the cross-examination. Thank you. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 10 Commissioner. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 11:11 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 11:29 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed, please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 20 think we start with Ms. Twohig. 21 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 morning. 25


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KIM TWOHIG: 2 Q: Hello, Mr. French, my name is Kim 3 Twohig and I'm one (1) of counsel for the Province of 4 Ontario. 5 I just have a few questions for you about 6 the 1937 correspondence which came to light on September 7 12th, 1995. Do you have it in front of you? 8 A: Yes. Yes, I do. 9 Q: Okay. I'd just like to go through 10 this sequence for you, if I may. It appears that the 11 first letter is dated August 13th, 1937, and it's a 12 letter from Mr. Trenouth, I believe, who is the Acting 13 Agent with the Department of Mines and Resources; do you 14 see that? 15 A: Yes. Yes, I see it. 16 Q: It appears to me that letters were 17 structured a little bit differently in those days and 18 that the name of the addressee to whom the letter is sent 19 appears at the bottom of the letter, and that was Mr. 20 MacInnes, the Secretary of the Department of Indian 21 Affairs; is that right, or is that your understanding? 22 A: I have to say I'm not an expert in 23 this -- 24 Q: Nor am I. 25 A: -- but -- but I'll -- I'll say from


1 the knowledge I -- I have, yes, that appears right. 2 Q: Okay. In the letter Mr. Trenouth 3 says in the second paragraph: 4 "The cleaning out this Park recently -- 5 when cleaning out this Park recently 6 the engineer discovered an old Indian 7 burial ground and stated that if the 8 Band would make a request to the 9 Provincial Government he was sure they 10 would be glad to mark off and fence the 11 plot. The council would like this 12 done. I would be pleased if you would 13 advise me if the Department will make 14 this request or will I do so direct." 15 So it appears that he's making the request 16 that someone ask the Provincial Government to take the 17 appropriate steps to mark off and fence the plot and he's 18 wondering whether to do it himself or whether the 19 Department will do it. 20 Is that how you interpret this letter? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. KIM TWOHIG: I'm afraid we've lost 25 Mr. French.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we were 4 doing so well. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There is no 9 way we can blame this on Mr. Millar. 10 MS. KIM TWOHIG: No, much as we might 11 like to. Mr. Klippinstein tells me that he's heard of 12 witnesses breaking down under cross-examination, but 13 never disappearing. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 15 take another short break. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 11:34 a.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 11:38 a.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed, please be seated. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KIM TWOHIG: 25 Q: Hello again, Mr. French.


1 A: Yes, hello. 2 Q: Before we ran into technical 3 difficulties you were having a look at a letter dated 4 August 13th in which the Acting Indian Agent was 5 wondering whether he should make a request of the 6 Provincial Government or whether the Department should 7 make a request to preserve the burial ground. 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes, I see that. 10 Q: Now it appears that the next letter 11 is dated August 17th, 1937 and it's -- the copy that you 12 have may be rather difficult to read, but I understand 13 that a transcript was also prepared and you may find that 14 in the documents you have. 15 A: Oh, yes. Okay. 16 Q: Do you have both? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: So it appears that on August 17th, 19 Mr. MacInnes, the secretary of the Department of Indian 20 Affairs then wrote to the Deputy Minister of the 21 Department of Lands and Forests for Ontario. 22 Is that the way it appears, from your 23 reading of the letter? 24 A: Yes, it appears that way. 25 Q: You'll note that in the middle


1 paragraph, Mr. MacInnes says: 2 "On the 15th of this month the Council 3 of the Kettle and Stoney Point Bands 4 passed a resolution requesting this 5 Department to bring the matter to your 6 attention with a view to having this 7 old Indian burial site preserved intact 8 and properly fenced. The request will, 9 I am sure, appear to you as entirely 10 reasonable, and I should be glad if you 11 would see that the necessary action is 12 taken, with a view to meeting the 13 wishes of these Indians. I would be 14 glad to have a favourable reply at your 15 earliest convenience in order that the 16 Indians may be so advised." 17 Then it appears that the next letter, the 18 last letter we have, is dated August 19th, 1937; do you 19 see that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: And it's a brief letter from the 22 Deputy Minister for the Ontario Department of Lands and 23 Forests to the Secretary of the Indian Affairs Branch, 24 and it says: 25 "Not having before me all the facts in


1 connection with the location of this 2 area in relation to our program of 3 works now being carried out, I cannot 4 speak definitely on the matter except 5 to the effect that I shall do my best 6 to make such arrangements as will 7 respect the natural wishes of the 8 Indians." 9 And he signed the letter. So is it fair 10 to say that would indicate that the Ontario Deputy 11 Minister was willing to do whatever he could to respect 12 the wishes of the First Nations people who had made the 13 request but needed more information. Is that a fair 14 reading of the letter? 15 A: It appears that way but I'm -- I'm 16 also a little uncomfortable as to -- to where this is 17 going. I'm not an expert in this. This was not any of 18 my duties regarding the history of the burial site. 19 Q: All right. Perhaps I can just tell 20 you where I'm going then. On September 12th, when Mr. 21 Ryan presented this correspondence, I'm wondering if 22 there was any other correspondence that replied to the 23 Deputy Minister's request for further information? Do 24 you remember seeing any other correspondence? 25 A: I don't remember seeing other


1 correspondence but that doesn't mean that others have 2 seen it. Certainly there are officials that work on 3 these things, and analysts, and I happened to be the 4 Minister's Assistant at the time -- 5 Q: Do you -- 6 A: -- but I didn't see the -- any other 7 correspondence. 8 Q: Do you know whether, at that meeting 9 or subsequent to that meeting, any request was made of 10 Federal Government officials to do further research to 11 determine if a response was ever made to this letter from 12 the Deputy Minister? 13 A: No, I'm not aware, that's -- that's 14 operational. 15 Q: All right. But you were present at 16 the meeting and I take it that there was no request made 17 at the meeting? 18 A: I can't recall. 19 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Ms. Twohig. 22 Ms. McAleer...? 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Good morning, 24 Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good


1 morning. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. French. 5 A: Good morning. 6 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 7 one of the lawyers who's acting for the former Premier 8 Mike Harris. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: I just have a couple of very brief 11 questions for you. You indicated that you did not have 12 any prior knowledge regarding the takeover of the 13 Provincial Park. 14 I take it then on the two (2) occasions 15 that you visited with the people in occupation of the 16 Barracks in the summer of 1995, that nobody asserted a 17 claim to the Provincial Park? 18 A: I don't recall. I don't recall that, 19 that that's -- there was an assertion of that nature. 20 Q: You don't recall anybody -- 21 A: The -- there -- I just don't recall. 22 Q: And you also indicated, I believe, 23 although it wasn't clear, that the first time you heard 24 about a mention of burial grounds was after the 25 occupation of the Provincial Park; is that correct?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then I take it that your visit to 3 the Army Camp on September 6th was prompted by the 4 takeover of the Provincial Park; is that correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And prior to attending on September 7 6th, did you or anybody within your department contact 8 the Provincial Government to let them know that you would 9 be attending? 10 A: That's possible but I -- I didn't 11 have knowledge of it. Certainly, when it -- when I was 12 asked by the Minister to go down, it could have been at 13 that point the Department was alerted. Departmental 14 officials may have been alerted that I was going to make 15 my way up to the Ipperwash territory. 16 Q: But -- but you, today, don't have any 17 knowledge of any contact having been made, do you, by 18 INAC to the Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Thank you. Those are all of my 21 questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Ms. McAleer. 24 Mr. Goodman...? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Good morning, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 9 Q: Good morning, Mr. French. 10 A: Good morning. 11 Q: Mr. French, my name is Adam Goodman 12 and I'm a lawyer for Deb Hutton, who in 1995 was an aide 13 to former Premier Harris, and I have three (3) discreet 14 areas I'd like to ask you about. 15 First, if I could ask you to turn to Tab 1 16 in your Commission Counsel book of documents and if you 17 can go to the seventh page in? 18 And what you should see on this page is an 19 e-mail chain. 20 A: I'm going to take a second to try to 21 find that. 22 Q: Sure. Sure. It's the seventh page 23 in. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Okay. I think we have the -- the 2 document. 3 Q: Okay. So what I have is an e-mail 4 chain and the original e-mail is dated Wednesday, May 5 17th, 1995 at 2:46 p.m. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's -- 8 A: Yes, I have that. 9 Q: Okay. And that's from Glen -- Glen 10 Brennan to A. Doerr and cc'd to J. Tanquary and D. 11 Forbes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And have you ever seen this -- this 14 e-mail chain before? 15 A: No, I haven't. 16 Q: Okay. And are these people INAC 17 employees, civil servants, to your knowledge? 18 A: Audrey Doerr -- 19 Q: He is? 20 A: -- and the cc to Tanquary -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- and Forbes? Yes. Yes, they're 23 Indian Affairs employees. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Regional Office people, I believe.


1 Q: And -- and the next day on May 18th 2 it was forwarded to L. Ashkewe, K. Brosseau, and D. Hill, 3 I don't know if I'm pronouncing those correctly, also at 4 INAC? 5 A: Did you say the next day? 6 Q: Yeah, if you look on top -- 7 A: Or the next date? 8 Q: -- if you just look on top of the -- 9 of the same page you'll see that it was forwarded. Do 10 you see that? 11 A: Oh, yes, okay. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Yes, I see it. 14 Q: And -- and those are also INAC people 15 on top there; listed on top? 16 A: I -- I don't recognize the names -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- but it says AINA after it, so. 19 Q: Which means that they were at INAC, 20 okay. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And this -- this e-mail, I 23 don't know if you want to take a moment to read it or I 24 could tell you what it says. 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: It reports on the Kettle and Stony 2 Point's injunction to stop the environmental assessment, 3 and Kettle and Stony Point First Nation's civil suit 4 against the Government of Canada. Do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it also mentions that in January 7 1995 some of the, I guess the quote is Locatees from 8 Stoney Point, initiated an injunction against the Band to 9 stop the -- the Council from negotiating on their behalf. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Now, in -- in your understanding I 12 take it these are the -- the Stoney Point Group who were 13 occupying Camp Ipperwash or -- or "the occupiers" as 14 they've been called? 15 A: Well, it appears that way, yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: So did this information about the 19 occupiers commencing an injunction against the Band reach 20 you? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: But it -- to your knowledge from 23 reading this it -- it looks as if it was received by INAC 24 employees, correct? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Okay. I would ask that this page be 2 marked as the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1875, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1875: Document Number 9000002. E- 6 mail from Glen Brennan to 7 Audrey Doerr re. Ipperwash, 8 May 17, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 11 Q: Mr. French, I'd like to take you now 12 to your knowledge about ongoing litigation regarding 13 Ipperwash. Now, we've been warned by the Commissioner 14 not to get into any of the -- the veracity of any of the 15 claims so I'm not going to ask you about any of that. 16 I don't -- I'm not -- I don't want your 17 opinion, I just want to know your knowledge of formal 18 claims to Ipperwash. 19 It's -- it's my understanding that the 20 only claim filed for Ipperwash Provincial Park was 21 brought by the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation in 22 litigation with Bosanquet Municipality and the Federal 23 Crown. 24 Do you know about this litigation? 25 A: Just a faint memory of it. That was


1 some many years ago. 2 Q: Okay. And this was an action brought 3 by Bosanquet against Canada and Kettle and Stony Point 4 First Nation regarding a road allowance and some of the 5 Ipperwash lands. And in its statement of defence and 6 cross claim, I think was dated March 4th, 1997, the 7 Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation claimed Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park from the Federal Government or a million 9 dollars in damages. 10 To your knowledge, is this the only formal 11 claim that's been filed for Ipperwash Provincial Park 12 against the Government of Canada? 13 A: You're going into an area that I 14 don't have a lot -- very much knowledge of. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: I really can't answer. 17 Q: But do you -- but in your knowledge 18 do you know of anything else, any other claims? 19 A: For the Park? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, Mr. French, I 23 understand from your evidence in-Chief that you attended 24 Camp Ipperwash on September 6th, 1995 and spoke to some 25 of the occupiers there in the early evening, that's


1 correct? 2 A: Yes. Yes. 3 Q: All right. And when you were there 4 speaking to the occupiers on the 6th, you passed along 5 your observations of what you perceived as your issues 6 with the OPP presence in the area; is that correct? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 Q: And you suggested that they remove 9 the -- I think your evidence was the children and the 10 teens? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And did you suggest they move women 13 as well? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. French, OPP Officer 16 Mark Dew testified at this Inquiry -- 17 MS. ELIZABETH KIKUCHI: Sir, if we could 18 just hang on a second. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. We'll just go mute 20 here. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 THE WITNESS: Sorry, we just had somebody 25 phone in looking for an individual, I guess, someone that


1 works here. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 4 Q: I hope it wasn't me. 5 A: No, it wasn't you. 6 Q: I'm not notable. So I'll take you 7 back to OPP Officer's Mark Dew's testimony at this 8 Inquiry. And for the benefit of My Friend's I refer to 9 April 4th, 2006, pages 75 to 83. 10 And he testified that at 19:55 hours or 11 7:55 p.m. on September 6th he was informed by the OPP 12 officers at the checkpoint located across on the road 13 from the main gate at Camp Ipperwash, that women and 14 children were leaving in anticipation of something. 15 Do you know about this? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Dew further testified that he passed 18 this information to Inspector Dale Linton of the OPP, who 19 at the time was the night shift Incident Commander. 20 Did you know that this information about 21 women and children leaving was passed along to the OPP 22 Command Post on the night of September 6th, 1995? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 25 questions.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 Mr. Goodman. 3 Mr. Klippenstein...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 8 Commissioner. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 11 Q: Good morning, Mr. French. My name 12 is Murray Klippenstein, I'm one of the lawyers for the 13 Estate of Dudley George and the family of Dudley George, 14 and in particular Mr. Sam George who is with us here 15 today, and many other members of the family who are in 16 the gallery. 17 So good morning to you. I would like to 18 ask a number of questions about a few of the points you 19 raised. In particular, you described part of the meeting 20 that you participated in on the Army Base on the evening 21 of September 6th, 1995 when somebody came into the 22 meeting and said something like, Something's happening at 23 the gate; do you remember describing that a little bit? 24 A: Yes. Yes. 25 Q: I'd like to just get a little bit of


1 context for that. I believe you said that you were 2 meeting with a group of the Stony Pointers at the Army 3 Base, and I don't recall, did you give a sense of about 4 how many people were in that meeting and an idea of in 5 what type of building the meeting was, just for context? 6 A: I don't remember. It was just one of 7 the regular barracks, I guess, that was along the road -- 8 along those roads. And I do remember there was quite a 9 number of people in there, so I guess perhaps anywhere 10 from, at any one time, from ten (10) to thirty (30) 11 people. 12 Q: So the number fluctuated but it could 13 have been in between that number at various times? 14 A: Yeah. I believe -- I believe so, 15 yeah. 16 Q: And I understand you don't have an 17 exact timing of the length of the meeting but it would 18 have been, for example, more than an hour; is that fair? 19 A: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 20 Q: And during that meeting you would 21 have had a wide-ranging discussion that included at least 22 some discussion of the Park occupation; is that fair? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when someone came into the 25 meeting to talk about something happening at the gate, do


1 you have any recollection of a little more detail of 2 that, for example, do you know if the person who 3 mentioned that came in from outside of the meeting, in 4 other words, was not part of the meeting previously? 5 A: Yes. Yes, that's my recollection, 6 somebody was -- somebody from the outside came in. 7 Q: And do you happen to remember if that 8 person was a male or a female? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. And I think you mentioned that 11 that occurred, to the best of your recollection, at about 12 eight o'clock; is that right? 13 A: That's my recollection, yes. 14 Q: Do you -- do you have any sense of 15 why you think it was eight o'clock? Did you look at your 16 watch or did you -- was there a clock on the wall or -- 17 or -- 18 A: No, I -- I think I -- I think I 19 looked at my watch. 20 Q: Okay. And had there been any 21 discussion during that meeting you were in, up to that 22 point, about the group going down or members of the group 23 in the meeting going down to the Park that evening, that 24 you recall? 25 A: No. No, I don't recall that.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: I -- I -- I'm -- I'm trying to 3 remember if I was invited to go down to the Park area. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And -- and if I was I would have had 6 to decline. I had asked Minister Irwin and Brad Morse, 7 before I left, if I was -- if I could go down to the Park 8 and they told me not to. 9 Q: Okay. Do you recall any discussion 10 in that meeting that evening, up to the approximately 11 eight o'clock time, of the occupiers of the Park 12 expanding the protest or occupation beyond the borders of 13 the Park that night? 14 A: Oh no. No, I don't recall anything 15 like that. 16 Q: Okay. And when this individual came 17 in at about eight o'clock and said something's happening, 18 do you recall your understanding or comprehension of what 19 that person was saying? And was it your understanding 20 that that person was suggesting that there would now be a 21 move of the protest or occupation outside the borders of 22 the Park at that time? 23 A: No. No, my understanding of -- of 24 what happened at that moment was I think there was some 25 fear, and I don't know why I think this, obviously


1 somebody must have said it, that they thought police were 2 going to crash the gates of the -- of the compound there 3 -- the military compound, that it really didn't have 4 anything to do with the Park. They thought the police 5 were coming into the military base. 6 Q: I see. Did you actually see anything 7 that evening in the behaviour or hear anything in the 8 words of anybody on the Army Base, in the meeting or 9 otherwise, that hinted to you that there was some kind of 10 plan to move the occupation beyond the borders of the 11 Park that night? 12 A: I don't recall that. 13 Q: Okay. When you heard the person come 14 in at about eight o'clock and say something's happening 15 at the gate, then I believe you said various people got 16 up and -- and moved out of the meeting and eventually 17 towards the Park, in the direction of the Park; is that 18 right? 19 A: I -- I don't know -- I can't remember 20 the perspective reference points of where the house was 21 with regard to the Park. People, from what I could tell, 22 were simply moving towards the gate -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- of -- the -- the main gate there 25 of the -- of the Military Base.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Now, whether some -- some headed down 3 to the Park I -- I don't know but the people I was with 4 were all headed to the gate. 5 Q: I see. And do you recall your 6 understanding, at about eight o'clock that evening when 7 this news was delivered to the meeting, whether or not 8 there appeared to be a suggestion that people should go 9 down to the Park and to the gate to assist. 10 Was that any part of your understanding or 11 impression at that point? 12 A: Down to the -- 13 Q: Should I -- 14 A: -- the gate in the Park? 15 Q: Should I repeat the question? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: When -- 18 A: I think I'm getting mixed up here 19 between what I call the gates and -- unless there's a 20 gate at the Park I -- I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. Well, let's clarify that. 22 When you reported somebody as saying, Something's 23 happening at the gate -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- do you remember, first of all,


1 whether that person used the word, "gate?" 2 A: No, no, I don't -- I don't recall 3 that. That's my -- that's my word maybe. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether your 5 understanding at the time was that whatever was happening 6 was happening at the Army Base gate or at the Park gate? 7 Do you remember whether -- 8 A: Army Base. 9 Q: Army Base gate? 10 A: Yes, it was Army Base. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And when you -- after this happened 14 you and several people left the meeting and got into a 15 van; is that right? 16 A: Yeah, I had a rented van, yes. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: Oh, and, you know, a lot of people 19 left that -- that house at the barracks and -- and they 20 simply headed right for the gate, running, and I -- you 21 know, other people had cars, I guess, and I had a van so 22 we -- we drove there, we drove to the gate, not very far 23 away but we drove it. 24 Q: Okay. So you mentioned people 25 running, so did -- did the meeting basically break up at


1 that point? 2 A: Oh, yes, yeah. 3 Q: And so when the person came into the 4 door and announced this, everybody had a sense of concern 5 and everybody left basically in a hurry? 6 A: Yes, that's what I recall. 7 Q: And when you say people were running, 8 and you mentioned cars, were some people running towards 9 the gate and some people were running or moving towards 10 their cars? 11 A: Yes, I guess so, yeah. 12 Q: And then you and some other people 13 got into a van and headed towards the Park; is that 14 right? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Where did you -- 17 A: No, headed just towards the -- the 18 gates. 19 Q: Okay. The gate of the Army Base? 20 A: The -- the compound gate. 21 Q: Okay. And was the house that the 22 meeting was in sufficiently close to the Army Base gate, 23 that people could just run directly to the Army Base 24 gate? 25 A: I believe so.


1 Q: And you and the other people in the 2 van that you were in, you drove to the gate at the Army 3 Base; is that right? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Okay. So you did not, and your van 6 that you were in did not head down the road towards the 7 direction of the Park; is that right? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: Okay. Did you see whether -- 10 A: I -- I never exited the gate, I 11 stayed within the compound. 12 Q: Right. And did you see whether any 13 of the people who had been in the meeting and who had 14 left the meeting, did head in the direction of the Park? 15 A: I -- I think that just becomes almost 16 opinion. I would believe that some had -- did do that. 17 Q: But you don't have a particularly 18 clear recollection, is that fair, one (1) way or the 19 other? 20 A: That's fair. Yeah, one (1) way or 21 the other, yes. It was -- it was a commotion, you know, 22 there were -- there were people scrambling and running 23 so. 24 Q: Did you hear anything, or do you 25 recall hearing anything that people were saying as they


1 were scrambling from the meeting? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I think best efforts were simply to 5 try to get to the gate as fast as possible. 6 Q: Thank you. I'd then like to ask a 7 few questions about your reporting back to your superiors 8 in the Department. I believe you mentioned that when you 9 left the Army Base it was around 11:00 and you -- 10 A: Yes -- 11 Q: -- and you were hoping or planning to 12 report back to Minister Irwin, but you decided not to 13 because of the phone situation; is that right? 14 A: Well, no, while I was within the 15 confines of the Park -- or not the Park, the Military 16 Base, I was reluctant to use my cell phone because I 17 thought it might be jammed or overheard. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And then, of course, as the hours 20 went on it became a little bit too late for me to phone 21 into the Minister's office anyhow. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: And so I was going to go to London 24 and then again it would have been, I think, probably more 25 like midnight by the time I got there, and simply try to


1 get the first plane out into -- back to Ottawa. 2 Q: And was it your intention then, when 3 you got back to Ottawa, to report to the Minister Irwin 4 and or to Mr. Brad Morse? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And of course things changed, to your 7 knowledge, overnight, but when you did get back to 8 Ottawa, did you sit down with either Minister Irwin or 9 Brad Morris, or both, and describe to them what you had 10 seen and heard in the camp? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you happen to remember whether 13 that was on the 7th or 8th? 14 A: No, I don't recall the date. 15 Q: But it would have been -- would it 16 likely have been the 7th or the 8th, in other words -- 17 A: Yes, it would likely -- yes. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. You mentioned a 19 number of things about your feelings toward your home 20 Reserve, and I want to ask just a few questions about 21 that. 22 But first I'd like to just as a few 23 questions about your background in relation to your work, 24 as it touches on Reserves, in general. 25 I think you mentioned that in


1 approximately 1981 you joined the Office of Native 2 Claims; is that right? 3 A: That's right, yes. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: On the specific claims side of the 6 Office of Natives Claims. 7 Q: Right. And in that capacity, for 8 some period you were a Senior Analyst and at some point 9 became a Senior Federal Negotiator; is that right? 10 A: Not at that time. I became a Senior 11 Federal Negotiator not actually too many years back. 12 Probably around 2001 -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- I became a Senior Federal 15 Negotiator. Before that with the office of Native Claims 16 and then Specific Claims Directorate, probably the level 17 I reached was Assistant Negotiator. 18 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that in 19 those negotiations you were dealing quite often with 20 disputes about land in connection to historic treaties; 21 is that fair? 22 A: Yes, yes, that's correct. 23 Q: And just to clarify, would that have 24 been, for example, limited just to Ontario or across 25 Canada?


1 A: I think my -- I was pretty much 2 limited in Ontario, I believe. 3 Q: I see. And tell me if this is 4 correct, in a general way. You would have been dealing-- 5 A: Oh, sorry -- no, I do recall working 6 some claims in Alberta. That's -- but not as a 7 negotiator, more as the Senior Analyst of the claims. 8 Q: And in these various claims where you 9 were the senior analyst, you would research the 10 historical documentation and summaries that had been 11 provided and would give your views of the pertinent facts 12 and factors; is that fair? 13 A: Yes, that's correct. 14 Q: And is it fair to say, in some of 15 these claims that you were -- or many of these claims 16 that you would analyse, there would be a situation where 17 a treaty had been entered into between the Federal, or 18 pre-Confederation Crown, and some First Nations people, 19 in which, as part of an agreement, certain lands had been 20 -- certain ancestral lands had been set aside as 21 something called a Reserve, that would often be a part of 22 your types of claims; is that fair? 23 A: Yes, that's fair. 24 Q: And am I correct in understanding 25 that the Reserves, to use that term, that would be


1 comprised of land promised to First Nations people in a 2 treaty, would be sort of the same as the idea of a home 3 or homeland that you described to us; is that fair? 4 A: Those are my words but, yes, normally 5 the Reserve was -- was set out, normally, I guess, 6 because there were treaties where it seems like the 7 Reserves were pre-set with the treaty, that maybe 8 government officials had already identified where the 9 Reserve would be and that was the offer of the treaty. 10 But there's -- many of the earlier 11 treaties know the First Nations picked the area of land 12 that they would have as a Reserve. 13 Q: Right. And not to get into it too 14 much, but the essence of that would be that the Crown, by 15 agreement and by promise, would set aside that land known 16 as a Reserve to be a home for First Nations people in 17 perpetuity; is that a fair general statement, from your 18 understanding? 19 A: The land was set aside for their 20 benefit, I guess, more technically, but, yes, that 21 reserve certainly was their home and -- and became their 22 home. 23 Q: Right. And -- 24 A: Through the generations, yes. 25 Q: And so when you -- by the way, some


1 of the feelings toward the Reserve as a home that you 2 described, is it your knowledge or understanding from 3 your -- their various claims that you were in, that 4 similar feelings were quite common in other treaty and 5 reserve situations in other First Nation areas? 6 A: Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember, 7 very vividly, in one of the claims that I was working on 8 where a 40,000 acre area of land was -- was mis-surveyed. 9 Meeting with the Elders, say, at lunchtime and having a 10 chat with them, they were very adamant that the exact 11 40,000 acres of land that was missed, if that exact land 12 would be given back to them because there were certain 13 sites, and they wouldn't tell me where the sites were, 14 but I understood what they were saying. 15 There was a number of sites within that 16 forty thousand (40,000) acres that they absolutely needed 17 back. So if -- if land was offered somewhere else in the 18 same amount as 40,000 acres elsewhere, that's not what 19 they were looking for. There was reasons that they 20 wanted the land that was lost. 21 So again, there are spiritual things and 22 sacred things happening over areas of that land and for 23 many other reasons the First Nations wanted that land 24 that they had lost. 25 Q: All right. I won't go any further


1 into detail on that except one more spin off area of 2 questioning, Commissioner. And, Mr. French, that 3 pertains to something that I'll describe as a surrender 4 of reserve land that had been set aside by treaty; does 5 this terminology sound familiar to you? 6 A: Well, certainly the term 'surrender', 7 yes. A lot of the specific claims -- many of the 8 specific claims that I worked on were because of 9 surveying errors, where land described was supposed to be 10 set aside as Reserve and then when the surveyor went out, 11 and we're talking 1850's and the 1860's and '70's, the 12 surveyor, for a number of reasons, whether it was weather 13 or number of people in the survey party, being weather I 14 mean also late in the season and maybe not enough time, 15 maybe perhaps misread what the instructions were and made 16 the Reserves too small in -- in many cases, or cut off a 17 piece of the reserve that was supposed to be -- but then 18 also there were the type of specific claims where 19 surrenders were taken, the Reserve was set aside, but 20 then surrenders were taken later and that started to 21 divide up the -- the Reserve and take away land. 22 Q: And so you worked on a number of such 23 situations, specifically where surrenders had been made 24 or allegedly made of -- of reserve land; is that right? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: And -- and I'm just asking a little 2 bit more about this because we've heard evidence in this 3 situation that there was a surrender or alleged surrender 4 in 1928 of the lands that were Treaty Reserve but then 5 later became Ipperwash Provincial Park. 6 And do you have any knowledge of 7 surrenders of Reserve land that were made for example in 8 the first half of the -- of the last century in the -- 9 from 1900 to 1950, say? 10 Did you have any knowledge of situations 11 like that? 12 A: Where land surrendered became a park? 13 Q: No, land -- and I'm focussing just on 14 the idea of the surrender, reserve land that had been 15 surrendered let's say in the first half of the 1900's 16 which resulted in some kind of a claim or dispute. 17 Did you have occasion to work on any of 18 that -- that historical period just -- just as a 'what 19 if'? 20 A: Yeah. I don't -- I don't recall 21 historical period. 22 Q: I'm sorry? 23 A: I don't recall a surrender that I 24 workded on happening in -- in the time after 1900. 25 Q: Okay. But you did work on one (1) or


1 more at an earlier date; is that right? 2 A: Yeah, I -- I think there were earlier 3 dates. Yes, I did work on a number of surrenders but I 4 think they were actually much earlier in the 1800's. 5 Q: I see. And am I right in 6 understanding the mandate under the specific claims 7 policy to deal with claims in that situation where the 8 Government might have -- and this is the term I believe 9 that is used in the -- in the actual policy quote/unquote 10 "lawful obligation". 11 Does that sound familiar to you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And so part of the mandate of the 14 specific claim process is to look to see whether there's 15 a legal obligation as such; is that fair? 16 A: Yes. Yes, that's fair. 17 Q: And would you agree with me, and I'm 18 making a distinction here, that there are situations 19 where surrenders of Reserve lands were made where the 20 First Nations people said whatever the legal or lawful 21 obligations might be we're basing our claim on other 22 sorts of factors whether they be moral or social or 23 political? 24 Is that a familiar situation to you as 25 well?


1 A: No. No, I -- I -- just offhand I 2 don't recall -- 3 Q: So -- 4 A: -- something like that. 5 Q: So the cases that you dealt with in 6 the specific claims process were limited to the issue of 7 a lawful obligation; is that right? 8 A: Yes. Yes, under -- under lawful 9 obligation, yes. 10 Q: Right. And so if -- and since those 11 are the words of the policy if -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- if a -- if a group of First 14 Nations people felt that Reserve lands had been 15 surrendered or allegedly surrendered unfairly -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- even though perhaps according to 18 the law of the day that wouldn't -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- be applicable in the specific 21 claims process; is that right? 22 A: Well, certainly it would be looked at 23 and reviewed, but no, it -- it, you know -- 24 Q: That doesn't -- 25 A: -- it wouldn't be --


1 Q: -- that doesn't fit within the 2 mandate? 3 A: -- say to the policy. The policy 4 says lawful obligation. 5 Q: All right. Okay. And... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Did you have a chance to or occasion 10 or necessity of looking at some -- in some detail the 11 surrender processes that were followed in some of the 12 cases you looked at for surrender of treaty land? 13 A: Yes, yes, I looked at the time. We're 14 talking some many years ago, but yes I was very well 15 acquainted with the surrender processes. 16 Q: And those would be the surrender 17 processes set out in the Indian Act; is that fair? 18 A: Yes, that is. That's right. 19 Q: And we've heard evidence in this case 20 that a number of the First Nations peoples who testified 21 said that they did not accept the fairness of the 22 surrender process under the Indian Act with respect to 23 their Reserve lands. 24 Is that a situation that you've seen or 25 experienced before in other places?


1 A: Oh yes, many times. 2 Q: And I won't go into any historic 3 detail in here, but is it fair to say, in general, that 4 there were some problems with the surrender process in 5 the Indian Act of the day, including a fairly high and 6 some say excessive degree of control by the Indian Agent? 7 Does that sound accurate based on your 8 experience? 9 A: I wouldn't exactly use those words, 10 but certainly there were cases where a Reserve or parts 11 of a Reserve were sent -- were surrendered with very, 12 very few people voting. 13 Q: And is it your understanding that the 14 surrender process was essentially managed by the Indian 15 Agent of the day; is that fair? 16 A: Yes, that's fair. 17 Q: And is it fair to say that in, from 18 what you know, I don't know if you have knowledge of this 19 or not, that whether under the Indian Act or in real 20 world terms, the Indian Agent would essentially have 21 effective control of the local Band Council government; 22 is that fair? 23 A: I'm not sure that's fair. Certainly 24 the Indian Agent had very much authority and the Chief 25 and Council way back when had extremely little authority.


1 Q: And the result of that would be that 2 the Indian Agent could often prevail upon the Chief and 3 Council to follow the policy or actions that the Federal 4 Government desired; is that fair? 5 A: Yes, I guess that's fair. Again, I 6 don't think I would quite use that description or those 7 words, but... 8 Q: Okay. In general, that's -- that's a 9 reasonable conclusion; is that fair? 10 A: Yes. Excuse me -- I would just go 11 from my own personal experience in that I know that when 12 I was very young on my Reserve, if we were in need of 13 anything, we would go to see the Indian Agent. And I 14 remember as a child going with my -- my parents or my mom 15 to go see the Indian Agent. 16 And across the street was Band Council 17 office. And if you walked into the Indian Agent's office 18 there was always thirty/forty (30/40) people waiting to 19 see him. And if you went across the street to the Chief 20 and Council, there was nobody there. Maybe you'd be 21 lucky to find the Chief there or a Councillor there. 22 But, the authorities that they had were very minor. 23 So the -- my experience, I guess I can 24 only go from personal rather than the -- my career, I 25 don't know what influence an Indian Agent would have over


1 Chief and Council because I've never been a Councillor or 2 a Chief. But, certainly on the personal day to day of 3 the Members, yes the Indian Agent had much power. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you Mr. French. I have 5 no further questions. And on behalf of the family I'd 6 like to thank you fo your testimony and thank you, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Klippenstein. 10 I'm going to give you an opportunity, Mr. 11 French, to help us. We're either going to try to push on 12 and finish the cross-examinations or we're going to take 13 a break and have some lunch and finish them after. 14 We have approximately an hour of cross- 15 examinations left. Would you rather have a break now, or 16 try to finish it? 17 THE WITNESS: No, I think I'd try to 18 finish it. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'd rather 20 just go ahead? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, please. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 23 we'll just carry on. 24 Mr. Rosenthal ...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, Mr.


1 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. French. My name 7 is Peter Rosenthal. I'm one of the counsel for a group 8 of Stoney Point people under the name Aazhoodena and 9 George Family Groups. 10 A: Good morning -- afternoon, now, I 11 guess. 12 Q: Yes, it is afternoon. And not -- not 13 quite lunchtime for us, I guess. 14 Now, just to follow-up briefly on some of 15 what Mr. Klippenstein was asking you, with respect to 16 comprehensive or specific claims, if a band could 17 establish that a surrender had actually been what might 18 be characterized as a swindle, that the Indian Agent had 19 aided and abetted, would that be sufficient grounds to 20 void the surrender and return the land back to the -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see an 22 objection to that question. 23 MR. GARY PENNER: Yes. This -- you're 24 now -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're


1 getting -- 2 MR. GARY PENNER: -- beyond fact and into 3 asking the Witness to draw legal conclusions with respect 4 to his experience. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. GARY PENNER: It wasn't his job to do 7 that and I think he should be -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 9 that's right, Mr. Penner. We've agreed -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 11 Commissioner, I'm not asking him to rule on any 12 particular thing. I'm asking him theoretically if -- if 13 a claim were found to be a swindle would that be -- would 14 that come within the land -- the land process or would 15 that come within the notion of lawful obligation to 16 return it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 18 Penner? 19 MR. GARY PENNER: With respect to the 20 process -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 22 MR. GARY PENNER: -- the determination of 23 whether the -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having 25 difficulty hearing. Mr. Rosenthal, I wonder would you


1 let Mr. Penner -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- speak in 4 that mike because it's easier to hear him. Yes, sir...? 5 MR. GARY PENNER: The determination of 6 whether or not there was -- was a -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was a 8 swindle. 9 MR. GARY PENNER: -- lawful obligation 10 and therefore the claim should be accepted was a 11 determination made by lawyers of the Department of 12 Justice not by Mr. French and so he shouldn't be asked 13 that question. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Perhaps, I'll 16 rephrase the question. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: When you were doing an analysis, if 20 you came to the conclusion that there was such a 21 situation as I described and looking back on the 22 surrender it was a very unfair surrender, aided and 23 abetted by the Indian Agent, you would have put forward 24 that information I presume; would you, sir? You -- 25 A: Oh yes, absolutely. As an analyst I


1 simply stated all the facts that were in front of me and 2 I put them into a report. 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: All facts were there regard -- as 5 well as the documentation regarding those facts. 6 Q: Now, with respect to this process of 7 specific and comprehensive claims, I gather it generally 8 takes a very long time to resolve; is that fair? 9 A: It has become, in later years, that 10 it has taken a very long time to resolve, yes. 11 Q: Yes. And, in fact, generally some 12 claims go on for twenty (20), thirty (30), forty (40) 13 years; is that correct, sir? 14 A: I -- the -- the -- from first 15 allegations before there was an Office of Native Claims, 16 yes, the -- the situation has been known for -- for that 17 long. But certainly, yes, they can go into -- into the 18 system of specific claims and be there for twenty (20) 19 years for sure. 20 Q: I see, sir. And a very small 21 percentage have been resolved to date now; is that 22 correct? 23 A: Well, I don't know if it's a small 24 percentage. I think what we found as we started to get 25 into -- like, I don't know the -- the numbers of -- of


1 claims that have been submitted and then the numbers that 2 are in, what they call, backlog that are -- that have 3 been submitted and they're still years away from being 4 reviewed. 5 But, again, sorry, I've lost track of what 6 I was -- 7 Q: But I -- 8 A: Just repeat for me. 9 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, you told Mr. 10 Klippenstein that you were aware of cases where -- where 11 surrenders had been questioned. 12 Have you been aware of any other situation 13 other than with respect to the Stony Point Reserve where 14 the Government actually seized a Reserve rather than it 15 being lost by way of surrender? 16 A: Oh yes, there are -- there are a 17 number of expropriations. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: Because of -- well, railroads, or 20 because of public utilities. You know, in -- in and on 21 my reserve the seaway (phonetic) went through so, yes, 22 you do get expropriations. As far as the War Measures 23 Act, I can't recall other instances, but the -- the -- 24 you know, again, we work as analysts in different 25 regions --


1 Q: Certainly. 2 A: -- so we -- we know more about the 3 region we're in. 4 Q: And -- and the expropriations that 5 you've talked about with respect to certain byways and so 6 on, have they ever included an entire reserve that you're 7 aware of, other than in the case of Stony Point? 8 Has a reserve been expropriated by the 9 Federal Government? 10 A: In my experience? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Not the entire -- I'm trying to think 13 if there's an entire Reserve. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: I -- I did work on a claim once, it 16 was -- it was near -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 18 to -- Excuse me, excuse me, Mr. French. 19 MR. GARY PENNER: I think he's stopped 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you hear 21 me, Mr. French, your counsel is objecting -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so I 24 think you should wait -- 25 THE WITNESS: Okay.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- until we 2 hear what he has to say. Yes, sir? 3 MR. GARY PENNER: With -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see him on camera. 5 MR. GARY PENNER: Okay. Can you see 6 the -- 7 THE WITNESS: Now I see him. 8 MR. GARY PENNER: Hi, Ron. 9 THE WITNESS: Hi. 10 MR. GARY PENNER: Excuse me for the 11 informality. The question isn't -- hasn't been put 12 fairly to the Witness, in that the Kettle and Stony Point 13 Reserve in law were considered to be -- both parts of 14 it -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. GARY PENNER: -- considered to be one 17 (1) reserve and so the entire reserve was not taken under 18 the War Measures Act, approximately one-half (1/2) of it 19 was taken and he should put the question to the Witness 20 that way. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That is entirely 22 incorrect, Mr. Commissioner. We've heard evidence there 23 were two (2) separate Reserves. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: They were one (1)


1 Band Council. They were amalgamated -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- as one (1) band. 4 There were five (5) reserves set out by the -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Treaty of 1827. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) reserves 9 and then they went through various government but there 10 was a separate Stoney Point Reserve Number 43 -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and Kettle Point 13 Number 44, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 15 going to start hearing argument now, Mr. Rosenthal, but 16 the -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But in any event I 18 believe -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The part 20 that is Stoney Point, the entire part was seized under 21 the War Measures -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Right. Stoney 23 Point Reserve 43 was -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- was seized


1 entirely. But in any event you question was has he heard 2 and does it depend upon that, the question was, is he 3 aware of any reserve that was entirely expropriated 4 completely by the Federal Government? 5 THE WITNESS: From my experience no, I 6 don't recall an entire reserve being expropriated. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Thank you, sir. 10 A: It doesn't rule that out, but I don't 11 recall. 12 Q: Yes, thank you. Now, we have some 13 evidence that in 1972 Jean Chretien was Minister of 14 Indian Affairs and he looked at the Stoney Point 15 situation and he was rather appalled by it and wrote a 16 strong letter that something has to be done about this 17 and so on. 18 When you -- when you've looked at the 19 situation were you aware of that letter of Jean Chretien 20 in 1972, sir? 21 A: No, I wasn't. 22 Q: Sorry? I'm sorry, I couldn't hear? 23 A: I wasn't aware of it. I see it now, 24 but I wasn't aware of it. 25 Q: But you -- in the course of your


1 reviewing the Stoney Point situation you became aware of 2 that letter, sir? 3 A: Only now. Remember I -- I was a 4 Minister's Assistant; I wasn't an official, an 5 operational official. 6 Q: Yes, I'm sorry, my hearing is not so 7 good, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 9 said no, he wasn't aware of it. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: You weren't' aware of it at the time 13 obviously -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: -- but I mean in 1995, 6, 7, when you 18 were looking at the -- the situation did you become aware 19 of that letter, sir? 20 A: No, not at that time. 21 Q: I see. Thank you. Can you give us 22 any insight as to why this matter went on so long; as to 23 why the Federal Government, having seized the land under 24 the War Measures Act with a proviso that when no longer 25 Military necessary it would be returned to the people,


1 didn't do anything until 1995? 2 Can you -- can you give us any insight 3 from what you learned about it and from your experience, 4 sir, as to how that could have occurred? 5 A: You just -- you just want my personal 6 opinion? Is that...? 7 Q: Whatever insight -- 8 A: I'm not sure I'm comfortable. 9 Q: -- you could offer, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, again, 11 do you have an objection to the question? 12 I think it's a bit too general. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Well, I -- I think the 14 Witness answered it in the sense that he said that he 15 wasn't comfortable in answering that. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Has he 17 answered that already? He was asked a similar question 18 earlier and he gave some answer but I don't think that's 19 a fair question to ask him, Mr. Rosenthal. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, I didn't 21 hear him say he was uncomfortable. If he's uncomfortable 22 I won't -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, all 24 right. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- ask him a


1 question. But if he's not uncomfortable I would like his 2 opinion. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 4 said he's uncomfortable. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Now, sir, you said that you noticed 8 this rather large police build-up when you attended in 9 September 1995 to the area of Stoney Point? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And I gather that the build-up was 12 such that it caused you concern that the police might be 13 planning to do something against the Stoney Point people? 14 A: Do something against? I think my 15 concern was there were just so many numbers. They -- 16 they seemed to be -- have so well outfitted that my 17 concern was that something like similar to Oka where you 18 have two (2) lines of people being in close proximity, 19 that perhaps a fight or a skirmish could break out. 20 I didn't think of it in the terms that 21 there would be a strategy that somebody would rush the 22 Park or rush the barracks. 23 It's more like you're in the same company, 24 very close, and then something happens and a fight breaks 25 out.


1 Q: Now, you first visited the area in 2 either June or July of 1995, you told us? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, over that period, were you aware 5 of consideration by the Department of National Defence of 6 simply vacating the area and giving it back to the people 7 who were occupying it? 8 A: No, I wasn't aware of that. If that 9 was part of any strategy, I was not part of the 10 negotiations. 11 Q: And were you aware of any discussions 12 within the Department of Indian Affairs about encouraging 13 the Department of National Defence to give it back, 14 during that time period? 15 A: No, I don't recall that. 16 Q: And finally, in September of 1995 you 17 indicated that you spoke to Inspector Linton and perhaps 18 other officers, did they -- 19 A: Well, I didn't -- I didn't -- because 20 I'm -- I don't recall -- 21 Q: I'm sorry, sir? 22 A: I don't recall the individuals that I 23 spoke to that -- 24 Q: You don't recall the names of the 25 individual officers, yes, sir. But you spoke to


1 several -- 2 A: Yes, other than I (transmission 3 failure). Q: You spoke to several OPP officers in 4 the course of being there, as you indicated, not that you 5 were reporting to them, but you spoke to them. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Now, what I wanted to ask you was the 8 following: 9 Did you get any understanding at the time 10 that the officers were aware that the Premier of Ontario 11 was particularly concerned about what was going on in 12 Ipperwash and had some views about? 13 A: No, no, not in my conversations with 14 the officers, no. 15 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Thank you 16 very much. 17 Thank you very much Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 Thank you. Mr. Rosenthal. 20 Yes, Mr. Ross...? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 25 Commissioner.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're okay, 2 are you, Mr. French? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm doing all right. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. Okay. 5 Let's carry on. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 8 Q: Greetings Mr. French. 9 A: Greetings. 10 Q: My name is Tony Ross -- sorry Anthony 11 Ross and I represent the Residents at Aazhoodena. 12 Now, sir, in your capacity as special 13 assistant to the Minister of Indian Affairs, I would like 14 to ask you a couple of questions, most will relate to 15 your evidence here today. 16 You've indicated that there's a problem 17 with the records at Indian Affairs because a substantial 18 amount were destroyed, is that -- did I understand your 19 evidence correctly? 20 A: Oh, no, no, not quite. What happened 21 with the records at Indian Affairs, there was a time 22 period, it might have been in the 60's or late 60's where 23 I guess the -- what happens to the files at Indian 24 Affairs, eventually they go over to the National 25 Archives.


1 And then what happened was I think because 2 of space problems, warehouse problems, there was talk 3 that the Indian Affairs records would be destroyed. All 4 the Indian Affairs records would be destroyed. 5 And that's when I mentioned that a man, 6 David Hume (phonetic), stepped forward. He was an 7 archivist at the archives, had gone to great lengths to 8 make sure that the files were not destroyed and managed 9 to keep up that fight long enough that when microfilming 10 came into vogue, then all the Indian Affairs records were 11 microfilmed and were saved. 12 Q: And, sir, as a senior person in 13 Ottawa, do you know whether or not this thing -- this way 14 of treating records also applied to a group like Veterans 15 Affairs? They would have had storage problems also, do 16 you know whether or not they decided just to destroy 17 them, unless somebody protested? 18 A: No, I can't say. I only know of the 19 Indian Affairs records. 20 Q: And the Department of Finance, their 21 records would have been preserved, wouldn't they? 22 A: Again, at that time period I -- I can 23 only speak for the Indian Affairs; that's the only one I 24 know of. You have to remember in -- in -- when I'm 25 talking 1972/'73, when I was doing this task, I was no


1 more than a clerk at the Department of Indian Affairs and 2 I was, you know, probably 21 years old. So as far as 3 knowing what happens really at decision making levels, I 4 -- I wasn't privy to any of that. 5 Q: But apart from at the decision making 6 level, at the operational level were you aware of any 7 other records from the Departments of Mines and Resources 8 that was just being shunted aside, or was it just the 9 Indian Affairs records that were subjected to this casual 10 approach -- sorry, to this approach? 11 A: Yes, I only know the story of the 12 Indian Affairs records. 13 Q: And you indicated that these things 14 were put on microfilm and right now it has sort of 15 created a bit of an industry to get proper records 16 extracted; am I correct? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And between 1976 and now, do you know 19 whether or not Indian Affairs took a policy decision to 20 have those records reprinted so they could be coded and 21 stored properly, or are they still in the same way they 22 were thrown in in 1976? 23 A: Oh, no, through the years there was 24 some -- I -- I recall that people were tasked with trying 25 to get some more organization into the -- into trying to


1 make the -- the way they were microfilmed more accessible 2 and -- and make it easier for researchers to be able to 3 pull out the time -- the Reserve they were looking for 4 and the time they were looking for and the subject they 5 were looking for. 6 So people went through trying to go 7 through the records and organize them. But you've got to 8 remember also, early on we had the microfilm copy of the 9 documents but the files themselves were still preserved; 10 they hadn't, as far as I know, been destroyed. 11 So if you did on microfilm happen to see a 12 letter that you were interested in and it may be very 13 hard to read on microfilm, you could still call up the 14 original file. 15 Q: I see. Now, there are two (2) 16 documents that appear in the public domain, one of them 17 is entitled, "In All Fairness." 18 Have you ever seen that little booklet? 19 A: Yes, yes. It's a policy booklet. 20 Yes. 21 Q: A policy booklet. Is that for 22 specific claims or comprehensive claims? 23 A: There was one called "Outstanding 24 Business" and one "In All Fairness" and I can't remember 25 which was which at this time.


1 Q: But in any event, these were two (2) 2 documents that was prepared by the Department and imposed 3 on the First Nations; am I correct? 4 A: I'm not sure I would use the word 5 "imposed" but they were policy documents that outlined 6 the specific claims policy and the comprehensive claims 7 policy? 8 Q: Yes. And I understand that prior to 9 1951 there were certain restrictions on Bands or Band 10 Councils getting legal services; are you aware of that? 11 A: Yes. Well, I know for a time period, 12 I'm not sure it was 1951, but certainly there was a time 13 period when it was -- First Nations could not go out and 14 seek their -- outside legal counsel. 15 Q: Yes. They had to go along with 16 whoever the Indian Agent said, whatever advice was given? 17 A: Well, I'm not sure it was the Indian 18 Agent that made that or -- or whether it came to 19 headquarters and other -- other people made those 20 decisions as to legal counsel that would help a First 21 Nation. 22 Q: And also with respect to the specific 23 claims process, you've indicated that it was triggered by 24 Chief and Council advancing a claim? 25 A: Yes. That's no longer the way the


1 process works out, and then there's a Band Council 2 resolution that would go and support that -- that they 3 wished to make a claim. 4 Q: Yes. And are you -- are you -- as a 5 Special Assistant to the Minister, were you aware that 6 the -- the Federal Court had ruled sometime that Band 7 Councillors were really agents of the Federal Crown? 8 A: I was not aware of that. 9 Q: Okay. But the entire specific claims 10 process, it's funded on terms as imposed by Canada; am I 11 correct? 12 A: The -- there is a funding policy as 13 far as -- or a funding process that it goes through, yes. 14 Q: And do you know whether or not there 15 was any First Nation input or collective First Nation 16 input in setting these funding guidelines? 17 A: No, I can't say. 18 Q: There's also -- perhaps you can tell 19 me also, is there an Indian Affairs, or at your time was 20 there an Indian Affairs policy of dealing with unceded 21 lands that were classified as surrenders as opposed to 22 ceded lands from which reserves had been set aside? 23 A: Yes, there were about -- we do have 24 ceded and unceded lands certainly as a distinction but I 25 -- I can't speak to -- to how the policy spoke to it, so.


1 Q: I see, but -- but -- 2 A: I'm not -- enough expertise in that. 3 Q: Sure. I just want some broad 4 guidelines. So that, for instance, here we've got the 5 lands down at -- the lands in question at -- at Stoney 6 Point. These were part of an 1827 surrender arrangement 7 and these lands were excluded from the land that was 8 surrendered. Were you aware of that? 9 A: Could you repeat that? 10 Q: I'm saying that with the 1827 11 surrender of a substantial piece of land in southern 12 Ontario, five (5) sections were not surrendered, they 13 were Stoney Point, Kettle Point, Sarnia, Walpole Island, 14 and I think it was Shinelicart (phonetic). These were 15 not -- 16 A: You're talking -- 17 Q: They were not included as part of the 18 surrender; they were withheld as opposed to -- 19 A: Okay. I think -- 20 Q: Go ahead. 21 A: No, I'm sorry, there -- there are 22 several different types of treaties. I -- I think you're 23 -- you're starting to get into areas where, you know, I - 24 - I was simply an official working at Indian Affairs. 25 You're getting into different policy things. I'll --


1 I'll answer the question but there were treaties -- I 2 think when you're talking surrender, in this case you 3 meant treaty. 4 There were some treaties in which the 5 whole area was surrendered in -- in treaty, so it was 6 given up, ceded, released, whatever -- whatever the words 7 of the treaty were. The whole area was -- was done that 8 by First Nations and then -- and the area was given back 9 as Reserve. 10 And then in other treaties, large 11 treaties, the land was -- was surrendered or released, 12 ceded, whatever, except for a small area which was then 13 reserve, so it was kind of excluded. 14 Is -- is that the -- what you mean by 15 surrender? 16 Q: Yes, sir. And what I'm asking, 17 whether or not there was a policy in -- there was a 18 policy for treating these two (2) types of lands 19 differently? 20 A: No. No, not that I recall. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, as far as the 22 Minister's Office is concerned, I take it, sir, that the 23 Minister's Office was aware of the occupation of the 24 range in 1993? 25 A: I was not with the Minister's Office


1 at that time. 2 Q: Okay. Fine. But the Minister's 3 Office was aware of the takeover of the barracks in 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was this seen as political action 6 by the -- by the occupiers? 7 A: I can't -- I don't know. I can't 8 respond to that. 9 Q: So you do not know the position taken 10 by the Department, whether it was seen as political 11 action or not? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, I ask you to recall the story 14 you told us about your son and the presence -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- of his grandfathers and 17 grandmothers on the land. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And against that background I would 20 like to ask two (2) things. Number 1, it has now been 21 identified that there was a burial site down at what was 22 later known as the Park. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. Would this be consistent with 25 your understanding of the importance of Indian lands to


1 Indian people? 2 A: Oh, yes. 3 Q: That they would sell the lands with 4 their burial grounds on it? 5 A: Oh, you'd have to -- could you ask 6 that question again? Sorry, I -- maybe I missed a part. 7 Q: Sure. Now, there was a surrender in 8 1928 of the beach end of the Stoney Point Reserve; are 9 you aware of that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And a portion of that surrendered 12 lands later became the Park; you're aware of that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And within the bounds of the Park 15 there was a burial area? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I'm suggesting that, first, would 18 you agree with me that the fact that the membership, or 19 some of the members might sign a surrender, does not 20 automatically mean that the surrender -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: I just have a concern, 22 Mr. Commissioner, about the direction that My Friend is 23 going with this question. 24 I think that this is something that 25 obviously will no doubt be raised in argument. And


1 furthermore, I think it is something that is currently 2 the subject of negotiations and ongoing. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it is 4 beyond this witness' ability, I think, to answer. 5 OBJ MR. DONALD WORME: Well, I think we have 6 his testimony in that respect anyway. But I do not think 7 that that's an appropriate question and I want to object 8 to that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's quite a 10 complicated question, as well, even if we could break it 11 down. But anyway, where are you going? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: As usual, Mr. 13 Commissioner, where there is objection I yield. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Mr. French, as a senior -- as a 18 special advisor to the Minister, were you aware of any 19 situations in which a surrender was rejected by Canada on 20 the grounds that it constituted an improvident bargain? 21 A: I can't -- I can't -- I don't recall. 22 Q: Thank you very much. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Yes. Well, help me if you can? 25 A: Well, sorry, I -- there was a break-


1 up there, I didn't hear. 2 Q: I was asking if in your experience 3 there were any surrenders put forward by Chief and 4 Council, by any Band, that had not been accepted by the 5 Crown because the surrender constituted an improvident 6 bargain? 7 A: In my experience with the files I 8 worked with, I don't recall that. 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you very kindly, 10 Mr. French. Those are my questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 Mr. Ross. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) more 15 -- no -- I was going to say, Mr. Roy, you're getting the 16 last word. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: I don't think I could 18 handle that level of responsibility. 19 On behalf of ALST we don't have any 20 questions for Mr. French other than to thank him for his 21 evidence today, this afternoon. 22 Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much, Mr. Roy. Thank you very much.


1 Do you have any questions, Mr. Penner? 2 No. That's fine. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I guess I get the last 4 word, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You get the 6 last word. Do you have any questions? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't have any 8 questions but I do have an Exhibit that I want to file. 9 And it is a DVD -- pardon me, a CD with the three (3) 10 radio transmissions and one (1) telephone conversation 11 that Mr. French was involved in that he spoke to. 12 This regrettably was just provided now. I 13 think we had only just asked for it, so I take, 14 obviously, the responsibility for that. 15 We will also be preparing a transcript and 16 we'll circulate that to the parties. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Worme. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Aside from that, 20 Commissioner, I simply want to join Mr. Roy in thanking 21 Mr. French for his attendance here and providing us with 22 his testimony. 23 So thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much Mr. French, for making the effort and for


1 providing us with your testimony. 2 Thank you very much. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Commissioner. 4 5 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 6 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Now, I don't know if 8 it's your intention at this moment, Commissioner, to take 9 a break, even a brief break or to proceed ahead. 10 But in any event, Mr. Millar will have 11 some comments as well. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 13 what else we have to do. So I think we'll forge on 14 unless -- 15 THE REGISTRAR: That CD, Your Honour, 16 will be P-1876. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-1876. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1876, the 19 CD. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1876: CD of Chatham 0146, Track 12, 22 Command Post Logger, 3 radio 23 transmissions, 1 telephone 24 conversation re: Ron French 25 present at Ipperwash Camp


1 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Mr. 3 French, if you want to leave you can, we're going to 4 carry on on some other things. And I wish to thank you, 5 as well, for participating this morning. 6 MR. FRENCH: Okay, thank you, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Am I 8 mistaken, or have we come to the end of this procedure. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, Commissioner, we 10 have now finished the witnesses that we intend to call as 11 part of this phase of the Inquiry. The end of this phase 12 will be the written and oral submissions. 13 The oral submissions will take place here 14 in Forest, commencing on August 21st, 2006. We haven't 15 discussed the time but I presume it will be -- I'll let 16 the parties know after we've had a discussion. On August 17 21st, 2006 the written submissions will be posted on our 18 website. 19 Over the past two hundred and twenty-six 20 (226) days, including today, we have collectively been 21 involved in a long but important task. I wish to thank 22 all parties for their assistance during the course of the 23 Inquiry and, in particular, Mr. Sam George. 24 Sam George has attended virtually every 25 day of the hearing. He has been of great assistance to


1 the Commission and has opened many doors for us. His 2 dedication in pursuing the establishment of the Inquiry 3 and through the process of the Inquiry is an inspiration 4 to us all. 5 The parties, in their capacity as 6 witnesses and other witnesses, have been through a 7 difficult and sometimes challenging experience. It is no 8 fun to be a witness. I wish to thank all of the 9 witnesses who have appeared at the Inquiry for their 10 participation. 11 One cannot speak of parties and witnesses 12 without thinking about Clifford George. His sense of 13 humour, his quiet dignity, his devotion to the cause of 14 the return of his home, his attendance every day at the 15 Inquiry, even in failing health, and his spirit that has 16 remained with us. 17 I also wish to thank Mark George who has 18 attended almost every day and has been very helpful to 19 us. Land Administrator Lorraine George and Counsel 20 Executive Assistant Faye Jackson of the Kettle and Stony 21 Point First Nation has also been of great assistance. 22 I wish to acknowledge the assistance of 23 the principal OPP Ipperwash Team of Inspector Mark Van 24 Zant, Shawn Evans, Ed Kodis and Greg Rutledge. I wish to 25 particular than Shawn Evans, who has answered all of my


1 calls for help with good grace, no matter the time of day 2 or the day of the week. 3 The work of the Inquiry has depended on 4 the cooperation and the assistance of all counsel at the 5 Inquiry. The Commission's work could not have been 6 completed without the assistance of counsel. And I wish 7 to thank all of the counsel for their professionalism, 8 civility, hard work and perseverance. 9 I also wish to thank the municipality and 10 its staff in Forest, both at the administrative level and 11 Kimball Hall for their assistance, particular at Kimball 12 Hall, Aaron Faye and Cory Turk. 13 I also thank Sergeant Deb Hodgson and her 14 crew for work that they have done. 15 A project like this requires a lot of 16 support. Here in Forest we've had the support of Susan 17 Beach, George Reeves and Ron Hewitt. They have made our 18 task much easier. 19 In Toronto our staff has done yeoman 20 service in organizing the preparing material for 21 Commission Counsel. 22 Carol Geehan and Wendy Warnock and Digi- 23 Tran have provided us with superb transcripts. 24 The media is an important actor in a 25 public inquiry. Our Communications Director Peter Rehak


1 has worked tirelessly to get news of the Inquiry out and 2 to support the media who have reported on the Inquiry. 3 Commission Counsel have been greatly 4 assisted by our investigative team of Inspector Rick Moss 5 of the RCMP, Retired RCMP Officer Jerry Woodworth and 6 Detective Sergeant Anil Anand of the Toronto Police 7 Service. 8 Senior Counsel Susan Vella, Don Worme and 9 I are indebted to the hard work and dedication of our 10 Assistant Commission Counsel Katherine Hensel who is here 11 today, Megan Ferrier, Rebecca Cutler, and Jodi-Lynn 12 Waddilove who left us at the end of last year. I wish to 13 thank each of them for their assistance. 14 I with to thank my Co-Senior Counsel Susan 15 Vella and Don Worme for their dedication and hard work, 16 their commitment to the Inquiry made my job much easier 17 and the Inquiry much better. 18 Lastly, Commissioner, I think on behalf of 19 all of us, I wish to thank you for your devotion to the 20 Inquiry process, your commonsense, your patience, your 21 good humour and your attention during the two hundred and 22 twenty-six (226) days of the Public Hearing. Thank you 23 very much. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's all I have


1 to say. Thank you, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. But just before everybody leaves, I have a 4 few words too. So thank you very much, Mr. Millar, 5 you've thanked a lot of the important people. I just 6 have a few words that I would like to say as well. 7 This brings us to the conclusion of the 8 evidentiary hearings of this Inquiry, and except for 9 counsel's written submissions which are due on the 28th 10 July and the oral submissions which will occur during the 11 week of August 21st. 12 I would like to conclude with a few very 13 brief remarks on the Public Inquiry process in general, 14 and this Inquiry in particular. 15 At the outset of these proceedings I set 16 out four (4) principles to guide us: openness, 17 thoroughness, fairness, and expediency. Commission 18 Counsel and I did our best to ensure that our commitment 19 to these principles were adhered to in every procedural 20 and legal decision we made. 21 Through openness, the public is provided 22 with a window into an incident and to the circumstances 23 surrounding it, that otherwise may not be available. 24 Among the windows in this Inquiry were these public 25 hearings which were conducted here in the community where


1 the events in question occurred. 2 Broad public access was made possible 3 through the daily live webcast of the proceedings and an 4 electronic posting of the transcripts by the end of the 5 same day. 6 National, regional, and local media 7 covered much of the proceedings. And some local media 8 were present almost every day, including the Sarnia 9 Observer, the A-Channel in London, and CTV Sarnia. 10 One (1) way in which thoroughness was 11 achieved was by calling approximately a hundred and forty 12 (140) witnesses who had relevant or helpful evidence to 13 testify. And fairness was assured through, among other 14 things, the cross-examination of these witnesses by any, 15 and sometimes all of the seventeen (17) parties 16 withstanding, thereby providing us with many perspectives 17 through which to assess the evidence. 18 Now, you've heard me remark on many 19 occasions that it was necessary to balance the 20 principles of thoroughness and fairness with that of 21 economy and efficiency. 22 Ever mindful that this is a publicly- 23 funded process, I believe that we kept to a rigorous 24 schedule, starting our day early and finishing late, when 25 necessary.


1 Throughout, Counsel was provided with timely disclosure 2 and summaries of witness' anticipated evidence to assist 3 with our preparation. 4 It was a tremendous challenge to balance 5 the desire to fully understand the circumstances of Mr. 6 George's death, on the one (1) hand, with the obligation 7 to explore only what was necessary to meet the Inquiry's 8 mandate on the other. 9 I believe we successfully navigated that 10 path. 11 But in my view, there are other measures 12 against which a public inquiry can and should be 13 evaluated. 14 You'll recall that at the outset of 15 these hearings I identified the goals of public 16 education, and through education and understanding the 17 goal of healing. It was my desire that at the end of 18 this process the Inquiry would contribute to the public's 19 understanding of both the specific incident of September 20 1995 and of the factors or conditions that contributed to 21 it. 22 Public education is not only achieved 23 through the Commissioner's final report, the public also 24 has benefited from the perspectives shared by the many 25 witnesses who testified in public and the knowledge of


1 the numerous expert witnesses that have also been called 2 to testify. 3 In addition, the public has had access to 4 the many research documents, papers, consultations, 5 forums and discussion papers on the policy issues being 6 explored by the Commission, which will guide my 7 recommendations on how to avoid violence and similar 8 circumstances in the future. 9 These hearings have not only provided an 10 opportunity for the public to hear, but for witnesses to 11 share, some for the first time, their view of events in 12 1995. 13 I was always aware of the fact that 14 revisiting events that took place over ten (10) years ago 15 may reopen wounds and rekindle feelings and tensions, but 16 I was also always hopeful that through this process the 17 Inquiry might leave the communities, and individuals 18 affected, a little better than they were when we began. 19 And I've been encouraged by the response 20 to this Inquiry, by the thanks from some witnesses for 21 having had the opportunity to testify, by the expressions 22 of hopefulness by those affected for a better future, and 23 by the steps taken by some parties toward that end. 24 Now, these hearings in Forest dealt with 25 the first part of my mandate. And understandably, public


1 attention was focussed on them. 2 However, in addition to examining what 3 happened at Ipperwash in 1995, my mandate includes making 4 recommendations on how to avoid violence in similar 5 circumstances. 6 And as you know, the Commission has done 7 much policy work while the evidentiary hearings have been 8 underway. It's my belief that the materials produced and 9 collected under our policy and research umbrella will 10 prove to be a lasting legacy of the Ipperwash Inquiry. 11 Relations between the aboriginal peoples 12 and governments, police and other segments of the 13 Canadian population, continue to dominate the public 14 agenda and are likely to do so for some time. I hope 15 that our work in these areas will prove to be of great 16 value in addressing ongoing and future disputes. 17 Much of the material is posted on our 18 website and will of course be contained in my final 19 report, along with my recommendations. 20 And I would like to acknowledge and 21 recognize Mr. Nye Thomas, the Commissioner's Director of 22 Policy and Research and his team, Noelle Spotton and 23 Jeffrey Stutz, for their outstanding work in this area. 24 Many of the parties have attended some of 25 the symposia and other meetings we organized. In the


1 past few days, new discussion papers have been posted 2 that I hope will be considered by the parties when making 3 their final submissions. 4 The areas covered include issues affecting 5 the policing of aboriginal occupations and protests, 6 aboriginal people and policing and the justice system, 7 relations between governments and police. These, along 8 with treaty rights and aboriginal rights issues, are 9 central to many aboriginal disputes. 10 A reflection on these hearings would be 11 incomplete without mention of the valuable contribution 12 made by legal counsel. 13 I want to reiterate some of the things 14 that I said informally the other night, my appreciation 15 to the parties for their cooperation throughout these two 16 (2) years. And for the fact that, notwithstanding the 17 many diverse interests, a strong sense of civility and 18 respect for each other, and for the process, has been 19 maintained. 20 I would also like to recognize the 21 Commission's legal team under the stewardship of lead 22 counsel Derry Millar. 23 One (1) of the central objectives of a 24 public inquiry is to restore public confidence by 25 bringing to light all the important facts and doing so in


1 an open and impartial manner. Commission Counsel are at 2 the forefront of doing what is necessary to meet this 3 objective. 4 In my view, the skill and integrity that 5 Mr. Millar has brought to this Inquiry established the 6 standard for his own team and served as guide posts for 7 all of us. I believe we've gone a long way to earning 8 the public's confidence in both the inquiry into the 9 events of September '95 and the inquiry process itself. 10 Mr. Millar was supported by a stellar team 11 of lawyers and investigators, some of whom he's named. 12 And I would also like to express my thanks to Ms. Susan 13 Vella, Mr. Don Worme, Ms. Katherine Hensel, Megan Ferrier 14 and Rebecca Cutler. And finally, Jodi-Lynn Waddilove, 15 who is now practising law in Alberta. 16 And I would also like to thank our 17 investigators, led by Inspector Rick Moss of the RCMP, 18 Jerry Woodworth who retired after almost forty (40) years 19 with the RCMP, and Anil Anand who was seconded from the 20 Metropolitan Toronto Police Services. 21 In my view, no Commissioner has ever been 22 better served than I have been by this outstanding team. 23 We will resume on August 21st for the 24 parties' oral submissions, which will mark the official 25 conclusion of this part of the Inquiry.


1 In the meantime, I hope the summer 2 provides all of us with some opportunity to spend time 3 with friends and family, who have provided us with much 4 needed support during these hearings. Thank you very 5 much. 6 Now, unless somebody has something to say, 7 unless anybody has anything to say, these proceedings are 8 now adjourned. Thank you very much. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 10 adjourned until Monday, August 21st, at a time to be 11 determined. 12 13 --- Upon adjourning at 1:11 p.m. 14 15 16 Certified Correct 17 18 19 20 21 _______________________ 22 Carol Geehan 23 24 25