1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 27th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Rebecca Cutler ) (np) 8 9 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 10 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 11 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 12 Basil Alexander ) 13 14 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 15 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 16 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 17 18 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 19 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 20 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 21 22 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 23 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 24 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 Gary Penner ) Allan Percy Howse 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 ALLAN PERCY HOWSE, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 13 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 134 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Adam Goodman 186 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 198 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 214 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 241 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 CORRECTIONS TO P-80 4 CD Rom record of photographs and hard 5 copy of photos 0013 and 0017. 6 CORRECTIONS TO P-82 7 CD Rom record of photographs and hard 8 copy of exhibits(10). 9 CORRECTIONS TO P-307 10 Document number 14000045. Notice "To All 11 1923 Williams Treaty Communities" Re: 12 Protest September 15, 1995 at Queens 13 Park in Toronto. 14 P-1770 Stan Thompson Map number 26, R. v 15 Ken Deane, April 08, 1997, marked 16 by Ken Deane. 17 P-1771 Stan Thompson map number 26-A, R. v 18 Ken Deane, marked by Ken Deane. 19 P-1772 Stan Thompson map number 26-B, R. v. 20 Ken Deane, marked by Ken Deane. 21 P-1773 Stan Thompson map number 26-C, R. v 22 Ken Deane, marked by Ken Deane. 23 P-1774 Topographical map marked by Ken Deane, 24 September 25, 1995. 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1843 Document Number 7000212. Memorandum 4 from A.P. Howse re. Powers of MP's Vice 5 Tasks, December 05, 1994. 39 6 P-1844 Document Number 7000273. Memorandum from 7 Major Fairall re. Political Restrictions, 8 Camp Ipperwash, December 09, 1994. 45 9 P-1845 Document Number 7000246. Media coverage, 10 Carl George interview; Media article, 11 March 30,1995. 47 12 P-1846 Document Number 7000288. Incidents at 13 Camp Ipperwash, April to June 1995. 50 14 P-1847 Document Number 7000534. Situation 15 Report, Demonstration at Camp Ipperwash, 16 May 15, 1995. 55 17 P-1848 Document Number 7000629. Situation 18 Report, Native Demonstrations, 19 May 15, 1995. 69 20 P-1849 Document Number 7000535. Significant 21 Incident Report: Arson, May 29,1995. 74 22 P-1850 Document Number 7000635. Situation 23 Report, Aboriginal Incidents June 09-12, 24 1995, June 12,1995. 75 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1851 Document Number 7000290. OP Maple, 4 Request for Guidance, June 16, 1995. 87 5 P-1852 Document Number 7000110. Captain 6 Ashford-Smith's OP Maple Various issues 7 and concerns, June 19, 1995. 94 8 P-1853 Document Number 7000291. Situation 9 Report, June 17-18, 1995, Native 10 Aggression, June 19, 1995. 95 11 P-1854 Document Number 7000636. Situation 12 Report Incidents of June 21, 1995, 13 June 22, 1995. 97 14 P-1855 Document number 7000304. Significant 15 Incident Report, Aggression, June 23, 16 1995. 100 17 P-1856 Document Number 7000307. Record of 18 Telecon, June 24, 1995. 101 19 P-1857 Document Number 7000231. Situation 20 report 23, June 25, 1995. 102 21 P-1858 Document Number 7000310. Situation 22 Report 27, June 27, 1995. 107 23 P-1859 Document Number 7000311. Situation 24 Report 28, Native Attacks, June 28, 25 1995. 109


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1860 Document Number 7000309. Complaint 4 Against the Military, June 28, 1995. 110 5 P-1861 Document Number 2005520. Op Maple 6 Situation Report number 6, July 06, 7 1995. 120 8 P-1862 Document Number 7000389. CLB Extensions, 9 OP Maple, July 10,1995. 121 10 P-1863 Document Number 7000365. Op Maple 11 Situation Report Number 40, August 12 16, 1995. 128 13 P-1864 Document number 7000270. Captain 14 Prentice's Brief to Comd's LFC AND LFLA. 15 March 18,1994. 144 16 P-1865 Document Number 7000272. Ipperwash Update 17 Spec-Task 19/93, August 22, 1994. 146 18 P-1866 Document Number 7000235. OP Maple 19 Situation Report, January 20, 1995 157 20 P-1867 Document Number 7000247. Situation 21 Report 28, April 28, 1995 160 22 P-1868 Document Number 7000410. Significant 23 Incident Report, Shooting Incident, May 24 12, 1995 164 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1869 Document number 7000305. Situation 4 Report, Native Aggression, June 23, 5 1995. 172 6 P-1870 3-ring Black Binder containing Linton 7 documents and CD. 240 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Commission calls 11 as its next witness, Captain Allan Howse. Actually it's 12 -- Mr. Howse has now retired, as I understand it, from 13 the Military. 14 15 ALLAN PERCY HOWSE, Sworn 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Good morning, Mr. Howse. 19 A: Good morning. 20 Q: I understand that you joined the 21 Canadian Armed Forces as a reserve, member of the 22 Reserve, in June of 1974; is that correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And as I understand it, in the 25 Reserve, there are three (3) types of officers in the


1 Military Reserve, either officers or members; a Class "A" 2 member of the Reserve who serves part-time? 3 A: The Class "A", "B", and "C" regards - 4 - refers to employment -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- as opposed to the distinction of 7 different -- I -- I -- 8 Q: What I'm trying to get at is as a 9 member of the Reserve, some members of the Reserve work 10 part-time. And as I understand it that some members of 11 the Reserve work full-time and then some members of the 12 Reserve become really part of the regular Army? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And from time to time during your 15 career with the Military as a reservist you worked full- 16 time for the Military? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And we'll come to that in a moment, 19 but as I understand it, as part of your work with the 20 Military you worked on the security operations for the 21 Olympic Games in Montreal in 1976? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I understand, starting in 1989, 24 for the period 1989 to 1995, you became a full-time 25 Member of the Canadian Forces as a reservist, is that


1 correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in 1989 you were sent to Goose 4 Bay, Labrador with respect to Operation Unique which 5 related to the Air Force Base in Goose Bay? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then in 1990 you were posted as a 8 staff officer and chief instruction -- instructor for the 9 Battle School in Hamilton, is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you remained in that position 12 until July 1994? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you retired from active Military 15 service in 2003? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as I understand it, you were 18 posted to Camp Ipperwash in July 1994 as Officer 19 Commanding? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And at the time you held the rank of 22 Captain? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you served as Officer Commanding 25 for Camp Ipperwash from July 1994 to the summer of 1995?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And we'll come back to that a little 3 later. Now, when you were posted as Officer in Command 4 at Camp Ipperwash in July of 1994, what information -- 5 firstly had you ever been to Camp Ipperwash before? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: For training exercises in -- in my 9 tasking as Chief Instructor of the battle school there 10 were different courses that were using the facilities 11 that I would visit. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- when you were 13 posted as the Officer in Command at Camp Ipperwash in 14 July of 1994, what information or briefing did you 15 receive, if any, with respect to the posting, about Camp 16 Ipperwash? 17 A: When first offered the assignment I 18 was given, in general terms, the taskings of -- of 19 Operation Maple, the manning levels that were there and 20 the different elements of Operation Maple and the Base 21 staff. 22 Upon arrival at the Camp, I was given a -- 23 before arrival at the Camp I was given a briefing by the 24 Commanding Officer of the Detachment in London who would 25 be my -- who is my immediate superior, along with the


1 administration officer there. 2 At arrival of the Camp I was given a 3 briefing by the Camp Sergeant Major and a short briefing 4 by the outgoing Officer Commanding. And I was given a 5 tour of the -- of the Camp by the Camp Sergeant Major 6 and also by the Military Police. 7 Q: Okay. And when you were asked about 8 -- approached to take this posting as Officer Commanding 9 at Ipperwash, as I understand it, it was -- you were 10 asked to volunteer, it was offered to you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then you accepted the posting? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it was a full-time posting? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And -- now, the briefings that you 17 received before you physically arrived in Camp Ipperwash 18 were they postings with respect -- briefings, excuse me, 19 with respect to the history of the Camp? 20 Did you get any information on the history 21 of the Camp? 22 A: Prior to the arrival, no. 23 Q: And did you get any -- and when I 24 say, history of the Camp, what I'm referring to is the 25 fact that it had been the Stoney Point Reserve and it was


1 taken over as -- in 1942 under the War Measures Act and 2 that it was occupied by occupiers in 1993, or at least 3 the ranges were occupied. 4 Were you given any of that history prior 5 to arriving, actually physically, at Camp Ipperwash? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And the briefings that you did 8 receive prior to receiving at Camp Ipperwash from the 9 Detachment Commander what did they -- what did they 10 consist of? Were they more administrative? 11 A: From the briefings from Lieutenant 12 Colonel Campbell, the Commanding Officer, were regarding 13 the manning and the taskings of the Camp staff and the 14 chain of command. My specific tasks -- one of the main 15 task is -- is reporting of information to -- to the 16 various levels and from -- and I got a general 17 understanding of -- of the chain of command from 18 Lieutenant Colonel Campbell. 19 Q: And what was -- as Officer 20 Commanding when you were posted in July 1994, what was 21 your role vis-a-vis Camp Ipperwash? 22 A: To supervise the overall operations 23 of -- of the Camp and the Camp staff. To also supervise 24 the Operation Maple staff and as a part of that ensure 25 that information was being passed through the chain of


1 command in a timely fashion and to provide direction and 2 orders as necessary to the -- to the staff at Camp 3 Ipperwash. 4 Q: And when you arrived in July 1994 I 5 take it you were aware that the Government had announced 6 in February 1994 that the Camp would close? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the -- as part of the preparation 9 for the assignment, either when you arrived or before you 10 arrived did -- I understood you reviewed situation 11 reports? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And those situation reports, what did 14 they describe, just in general terms? 15 A: The situation reports that I reviewed 16 were in reference to the occupation of the Military 17 property by the Stoney Point Group. 18 Did you ask before I arrived? 19 Q: Yes. Or did you learn -- did you 20 review these situations after you got there? I'm -- 21 A: Okay. There's two (2) situations. 22 When I was a Staff Officer at Hamilton District -- 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: -- one of my duties was to review the 25 -- the situation reports sent out by National Defence


1 Headquarters, on -- that were sent out to all the -- all 2 of the headquarters in -- and as an operations staff 3 officer it was my job to review those and report to my 4 commander anything of importance. 5 So I was made generally aware of the 6 occupation and of the -- the groupings, the Stoney Point 7 Group, the Kettle and Stony Point Band, the various 8 players if you will at that time during my -- during my 9 job as an operations staff officer. 10 Q: So you knew the -- as part of your 11 work in Hamilton you would receive situation reports that 12 were distributed and from those situation reports you 13 learned about the Stoney Point -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- Group that had occupied the ranges 16 and Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the -- you -- let's move you down 19 to the -- when you arrived at -- or part of your tasks in 20 July 1994 you indicated was to supervise the Camp staff? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did the -- and what did the 23 Camp staff consist of, Mr. Howse? 24 A: The Camp staff was the Camp Sergeant 25 Major who was Master Warrant Officer Taylor. There was a


1 quartermaster sergeant. There was a transport master 2 corporal. There were civilian contract members or staff 3 members from the London Detachment Engineering -- 4 Engineering section and there were civilian contract 5 cooks. 6 Q: Okay. And then you indicated there 7 was Operation Maple staff? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what was your understanding of 10 Operation Maple in July 1994? 11 A: Operation Maple was a security 12 operation established to maintain timely information to 13 higher headquarters on the occupation of Camp Ipperwash, 14 to protect the assets of the Camp as much as possible, 15 and to provide safety and well-being to the Camp staff. 16 Q: And so Operation Maple was really -- 17 another -- was the name given to this work at Camp 18 Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the Operation Maple staff, what 21 did it consist of in July 1994? 22 A: The Operation Maple staff was -- 23 consisted of two (2) elements. There were three (3) to 24 four (4) master -- warrant officer or sergeant level 25 infantry soldiers assigned to range patrol and there was


1 also a Detachment of in the neighbourhood -- it varied 2 from twelve (12) to sixteen (16) military policemen with 3 a -- a sergeant and/or junior officer as their Detachment 4 commander. 5 Q: So that the Maple staff consisted of 6 the range patrol officers who were infantry -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- either NCO's or -- or -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and -- and the second element was 11 the Military Police? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And after you arrived in July 1994 14 did the range patrol patrol the ranges, so to speak; is 15 that -- is that what their name came from? 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: And so they would patrol the interior 18 of the Camp Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did the Military Police accompany 21 the range patrol when the range patrol made its patrols? 22 A: Usually. 23 Q: And -- okay. Now, the -- prior to 24 your arriving at Camp Ipperwash in July 1994 I believe 25 Carl George hand been made chief of the Stoney Point


1 people at Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: That's my understanding. 3 Q: And did you have a meeting or 4 meetings with Carl George after you arrived in -- at Camp 5 Ipperwash? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what was the purpose of those 8 meetings, sir? 9 A: There were a few meetings. They were 10 specifically to negotiate items within -- topics within 11 the -- the security element of Operation Maple. One (1) 12 was to try it -- one (1) of the problems was the 13 breaching of the outer perimeter fence and I asked Carl 14 George to meet with me and -- and discuss the difficulty 15 that the municipality and the OPP were having with that 16 and what we could achieve as far as compromising with -- 17 with not using the breaches, things like that. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: There was a couple of other instances 20 where there was specific items that were -- were taken 21 from the Camp that Carl George arranged to have returned. 22 There was an instance where it was seen 23 that there were occupiers or Members of the Stoney Point 24 Group and others that were on the property, using or 25 hunting in a field off -- close to the built-up area and


1 there was a concern about the discharge of firearms that 2 close to the built-up area. And I asked Carl if there 3 was something that he could do to curtail that activity 4 and he did. 5 Q: And the -- I'm going to put up on the 6 screen a copy of a map of -- this has actually been 7 marked and we'll come to it in a moment, Mr. Howse, but 8 it's a copy of Exhibit P-1794 which is also copy P-41. 9 And the -- just for your reference, if you 10 go to Tab 9 of that black book in front of you, you'll 11 see the map that I'm going to throw up is attached to 12 Inquiry Document 7000568, which is a memorandum dated May 13 22nd, 1995. 14 But, I'm really going to ask you not so 15 much about the details but about some of the items that 16 you just referred us to. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And this is a map of the Exhibit P- 19 1794 which is a map of the Military Reserve. It's the 20 same as P-41 I believe, but it's got some additional 21 notations on it. 22 And when you said the concern about the 23 breaches of the perimeter fence, what were you referring 24 to, sir? 25 A: There was a breach -- there was a


1 break in this area here, where Outer Drive and the 2 interior roads come together and this was being used as 3 an entry point into the property. There was a couple of 4 breaches in this area along Army Camp Road which were 5 being used as breaches into the property. And there was 6 a gate here that had been opened. 7 Q: So that just for the purposes of the 8 record the -- on the exhibit -- on the east side of the 9 Army Camp -- the boundary on the east side for the most 10 part is Outer Drive? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the boundary on the south was 13 Highway 21? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And on the west, Army Camp Road? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And so the first breach that you 18 referred to is the breach that is on the east side where 19 there's an interior road runs close to the boundary so 20 that it parallels Army Camp Road -- 21 A: Outer -- Outer Drive. 22 Q: I mean Outer Drive. And it's 23 immediately to the right of the number 24 which appears 24 in the center of this document? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And then the second breach that you 2 were concerned about was along Army Camp Road, the 3 general vicinity of the trailer park, across from the 4 trailer park, where it's noted on this map? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the third breach was the fence 7 that was open on the -- on the Highway 21 side near Outer 8 Drive, just below the 'H' that appears on Exhibit P-1794? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you discussed those issues with 11 Carl George and resolved them satisfactorily? 12 A: We discussed them. The -- the 13 results actually was that I took action on my own rather 14 than having a compromise solution. 15 Q: Okay. And what did you do, close up 16 the breaches? 17 A: I actually -- I closed the fences at 18 one (1) time and after having the fences breached again I 19 had a trench dug in order to prevent the -- the use of 20 that area by vehicle traffic. 21 Q: And the trench was -- was dug on the 22 Outer Drive side of the Army Camp? 23 A: It was -- no, it was on the Military 24 property. 25 Q: But on -- on the west -- on the east


1 side of the Army Camp? 2 A: Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. 3 Q: And you indicated that there was a 4 concern that you discussed with Carl George about people 5 hunting close to the built-up area which is in the 6 southwest corner near the intersection of Army Camp Road 7 and Highway 21? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And where was the -- where were 10 people hunting that you were concerned about, sir? 11 A: Mostly in the sports -- sports fields 12 in this area in here. 13 Q: And you pointed on Exhibit P-1794 to 14 the area that's labelled, "sports track"? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you were aware when -- in the 17 fall of 1994 and the spring of -- end of 1994 -- 1995 18 that people hunted in the Army Camp? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the occupiers hunted in the Army 21 Camp? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And your concern was simply people 24 hunting too close to the built-up area? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Because people lived in the built-up 2 area? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when you arrived in July 1994 5 what instructions, if any, were you given with respect to 6 the fact that there were a variety of people occupying 7 the ranges along Highway 21? What were you told about 8 that? 9 A: The -- I'm not sure what you're 10 asking. Are you asking about what information I was 11 given about how they were or -- 12 Q: No, no. Well, I'll get to that. But 13 were you given information that there were people who 14 were occupying the ranges along Highway 21? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that those people had been there 17 since May of 1993, or at least some of them? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what was -- what were you told 20 was the position of DND with respect to those people 21 living along the rifle ranges? 22 And by that I mean, were you told that 23 they could stay? 24 Were you told that you were supposed to -- 25 part of your task was to have them leave, or what was the


1 status? 2 A: The -- the specific areas or sites as 3 they were referred to, were to be observed but left 4 alone. We weren't to encroach too much into the sites 5 themselves. We were not to try to dislodge the occupiers 6 from those sites. 7 Q: And when you arrived in July 1994 8 there were sites along -- in what we've called the ranges 9 along Highway 21? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And some sites up in the dunes up by 12 Lake Huron; is that -- were they there then? 13 A: Yes. Each of the -- each of the 14 sites marked with a letter was the -- an active site. 15 Q: And this particular drawing is from 16 May 1995, but with the sites labelled but were they more 17 or less the same in 1994? 18 A: This -- this is actually a map that I 19 made shortly after I arrived in 1994. 20 Q: Okay. So that where it says 'A', 21 'B', all of the labelled sites were sites that were -- 22 people were living at when you arrived in 1994? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And so that the -- insofar as 25 the -- your relations with the occupiers, it was -- as


1 Officer Commanding you were to -- not disturb the 2 occupiers? 3 A: To the extent possible. 4 Q: To the extent possible. Now, were 5 you aware that in -- that there was a cemetery in the 6 Army Camp itself in the area... 7 A: In this area here. 8 Q: And you're pointing to the area on -- 9 these's a road that runs east from the sewerage disposal 10 site on this map and you're pointing to the area under 11 the 'R' in Reserve? 12 A: Yes. There's -- there's actually a 13 'C' marked there which stands for cemetery. 14 Q: Oh. This -- on the -- the cemetery 15 was the 'C'? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what was your understanding when 18 you arrived in July of 1994 or shortly thereafter as to 19 the policy with respect to the cemetery? 20 A: Any -- any of the Natives who wished 21 to visit the cemetery followed a pol -- a standard 22 procedure of -- of bringing a written request from the 23 Kettle and Stony Point Band office, which would be 24 immediately accepted at the front gate. If necessary, 25 they would be provided with transportation or an escort


1 to and from the -- the cemetery site. 2 Q: Okay. And in 1994 after your arrival 3 did you review other situation reports with respect to or 4 other documents relating to the operation of the Camp? 5 A: Yes, I -- there was a number of files 6 left and -- and turned over to me when I -- when I 7 assumed the -- the position of Officer Commanding, and I 8 -- I reviewed as much of the files -- as many of the 9 files as I could to bring myself up to speed as -- as the 10 term is, or just give myself as -- as much background 11 knowledge as possible. 12 Q: And did you review daily operational 13 logs of the Military Police? 14 A: It wasn't a part of my daily routine. 15 I would periodically. But the Military Police logs 16 reflected the Range Patrol logs which I -- I read on a 17 daily basis. 18 Q: When you say they "reflected" the 19 range patrol logs... 20 A: The Range Patrol and Military Police 21 by and large acted in concert, so what was in one (1) log 22 should be in the other as well. 23 Q: And you looked at the Range Patrol 24 logs? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And you would then do situation 2 reports from time to time? 3 A: As -- as required, yes. 4 Q: Now, in the -- in the yellow folder 5 in front of you there's a copy of Inquiry Document 6 7000078, which was marked as P-1789. And this is a 7 document August 25th, 1993, entitled, Security Guidelines 8 For Use of Ipperwash Training Facilities. And -- 9 A: Sorry, what -- I have P-1790, 91, 92, 10 and 93. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And when you arrived in July of 1994 15 were you made aware of this policy? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as I understand it, that this 18 policy provided, and I'm not going to take you -- I went 19 through this in some detail with Mr. Smith yesterday, but 20 the approach outlined in this policy was a non- 21 provocative, non-confrontational approach? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what did you understand as -- by 24 that, non-provocative, non-confrontational approach? 25 What -- what did that mean to you?


1 A: That meant to me observing but not 2 necessarily approaching, to provide some distance when 3 possible. If confronted by occupiers to keep a calm 4 disposition and if the confrontation progressed to an 5 aggressive nature to -- to withdraw if possible and to 6 not provoke any aggressive behaviour. 7 Q: Okay. And in -- you'll find -- you 8 should find the next document in that bundle of 9 documents, is a copy of Exhibit P-1790. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: It's Inquiry Document 7000093. And 12 this document is dated November 25, 1994 and this is 13 entitled, Operation Maple Operation Order 194. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you see a copy of this 16 document back in 1994? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And this document reports that at 19 least of November 1994, in Item 1(a) under Situation: 20 "Since the announcement that the 21 Government intended to return CFC 22 Ipperwash to Native ownership instances 23 of conflict and confrontation at the 24 Camp have decreased." 25 And was that your experience, Mr. Howse?


1 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: And then under (b): 3 "Commander, S. intent: The intent of 4 Op Maple is to continue to avoid 5 confrontation, to exercise due 6 diligence with respect to public 7 safety, to minimize the threat of 8 public property through -- to minimize 9 the threat to public property through 10 removal of recoverable assets and to 11 establish a minimum prudent manning 12 level at the Camp." 13 And was that your understanding of the 14 intention of Operation Maple then -- 15 A: Yes, it was. 16 Q: -- at that period? Now, the mission 17 in Item 2 is described as: 18 "To secure public property and to 19 ensure public safety at minimum cost." 20 And then under 3(a), Execution, General 21 Outline: 22 "Given the quantity of recoverable 23 assets now located at CFC Ipperwash, 24 the concurrent manning level provides 25 for the lowest prudent capability.


1 However, once recoverable assets are 2 removed from the Camp a large military 3 police presence and infrastructure 4 manpower will no longer be required. 5 As a result, recoverable assets will be 6 removed and manning levels reduced in 7 two (2) phrases. The first phase will 8 include the removal of recoverable 9 assets. The second phase will include 10 the adoption of reduced manning level 11 on site." 12 And was that your understanding? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So part of your task as Officer 15 Commanding was to oversee the removal of recoverable 16 assets? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it that would be all 19 assets that could be picked up and moved other than 20 buildings that -- and structures that couldn't be moved? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And when you arrived in 1994, were 23 there weapons, and by weapons I mean firearms and 24 ammunition, kept at Camp Ipperwash? 25 A: By the Military?


1 Q: Other than -- other than by the 2 Military Police or the Range Patrol? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And it's my understanding that any 5 stores of ammunition and weapons had been removed in 6 1993? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Then under paragraph 3(b), Phase 1 9 Tasks, they're described as: 10 "Monitor Native activities on the Camp 11 but to continue to avoid confrontation 12 where possible." 13 And that was your understanding? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And: 16 "B) Ensure the effective marking and 17 fencing of the Camp perimeter and 18 danger areas." 19 And that was your understanding? 20 A: Yes, it was. 21 Q: "D) Maintain a full-time 22 concessionaire (sic) presence at the 23 main gate." 24 A: Commissionaire. 25 Q: "Presence at the main gate."


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And that was at the main gate 3 on Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "E) Conduct routine range patrols 6 and repairs during normal hours." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "F) Maintain a military police 9 presence during normal working hours." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And: 12 "G) Maintain a limited military police 13 on call capability during silent 14 hours." 15 And is that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And silent hours were the night time? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then the -- under (d) Timing: 20 "Commence..." 21 Excuse me, 1(a): 22 "Commence removal of recoverable 23 resources on order." 24 And then (b) that was to be not later than 25 ninety (90) days after receipt of order?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- this was the ord -- this, 3 in effect, is an order given to you as Officer 4 Commanding? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at this point in time in November 7 1994 you hadn't been given a date by which the 8 recoverable assets were to be removed? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Then I would ask you, Mr. Howse, to 11 turn to Tab 1 of the black book. And at Tab 1 you will 12 find Inquiry Document 7000212 and it's dated December 5, 13 1994. 14 And it appears to record conver -- 15 telephone conversations between you and a Major Fairall 16 on December 1, 1994 and you and a Major Wyville, W-Y-V-I- 17 L-L-E, on December 2nd, 1994? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And this is a memorandum prepared by 20 you? 21 A: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 23 this be the next exhibit? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1843, Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1843: Document Number 7000212. 2 Memorandum from A.P. Howse 3 re. Powers of MP's Vice 4 Tasks, December 05, 1994. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And the -- there's a reference in 8 this document to "APM" -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and "APM" refers to...? 11 A: The area Provost Marshall. 12 Q: And who was -- what was the job of 13 the Area Provost Marshall back in December 1994? 14 A: The Area Provost Marshall is the 15 staff officer at Area Headquarters; in this case it's 16 Land Force Central Area in Toronto; to advise and assist 17 the commander in military police matters. 18 Q: Okay. And what was the issue -- what 19 was the problem that was being discussed at this point in 20 December -- on December -- early December 1994 that 21 you've recorded in P-1843? 22 A: Major Fairall, who was the Area 23 Provost Marshall, contacted me by telephone to discuss 24 the -- to discuss the non-confrontational approach to -- 25 to the security of -- of Camp Ipperwash.


1 And in this document it's stated that the 2 -- the Military Police felt that they had an obligation 3 to react to breaches of the Criminal Code of Canada. And 4 that in some instances I felt that that was too 5 confrontational and stopped the Military -- it was felt 6 that I was stopping the Military Police from fulfilling 7 their duties. 8 Q: So that there was a tension between 9 you as Officer Commanding and trying to administer a non- 10 confrontational approach and the Military Police who felt 11 it was their duty to charge people if they observed a 12 criminal offence? 13 A: I don't know that it was a tension as 14 much as it was a disagreement. Understanding the 15 Military chain of command and the structure that we had 16 in place, it wasn't a situation where there was a lot of 17 arguments between myself and the MP's. 18 There was discussions between myself and 19 the MP supervisor and any concerns that he had. He went 20 to the Area Provost Marshall for advice and understanding 21 and it was the Area Provost Marshall who approached me to 22 get my understanding of the situation so that clear 23 direction could be provided to both the -- the Camp staff 24 and the Military Police if there was an instance where 25 there would be a difference of opinion.


1 Q: And I note that in Item Number 4 on 2 page 1 of Exhibit P-1843 it says: 3 "A further concern..." 4 The first item -- there are two (2) Item 5 Number 4's, but the first one: 6 "The APM stated that reference 'C' has 7 given specific directions on which laws 8 will be enforced which was not 9 disputed. But the permissive rather 10 than authoritative wording of the 11 reference may/will, specifically para 12 3(c)(2) which states, [quote] 'arrests 13 will not be made for any offence should 14 the scene commander consider the 15 situation too confrontational' [close 16 quote] was not considered. It was 17 stated to the APM that a [quote] 'short 18 leash approach needed -- seemed 19 necessary to ensure confrontation is 20 avoided." 21 And that's referring to the fact that 22 without your approval certain offences couldn't be 23 charged? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And your view was that the -- the


1 Military Police were on a short leash? Is that -- 2 A: That -- I used that term in reference 3 to some of the concerns that the Military Police had -- 4 had made reference to as well. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: We -- we sort of both saw -- 7 Q: Okay, the short -- 8 A: -- that -- that approach -- 9 Q: As that -- okay. And then the last 10 number 4, at the bottom: 11 "A further concern is that there should 12 be no restrictions to MP's on access to 13 any area of the Camp such as not 14 entering the training area without 15 Range Patrol present. It is explained 16 that the division of tasks has always 17 been for the MP's to provide security 18 for the built-up area, BUA, while the 19 training area was the responsibility of 20 the Range Patrol staff. The reasons 21 for this division was explained." 22 So that, do I take it from this paragraph, 23 Mr. Howse, that primarily the MP's were to provide 24 security for the built-up area and the Range Patrol would 25 go into the -- the training area?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that certain parts of the 3 training area the Range Patrol didn't go into; for 4 example, the camps of the occupiers? 5 A: Yes, that's true. 6 Q: Then if you could please turn to Tab 7 2. This is Inquiry Document 7000273 and this is a 8 document dated December 9th, 1994, and it's authored by 9 Major Fairall, F-A-I-R-A-L-L. 10 And did you receive a copy of this, sir? 11 Have you seen this before? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Prior to becoming -- preparing for 14 attending here? 15 A: It was not -- it was not a part -- I 16 was not on the distribution list at the time so no, I 17 didn't see this. 18 Q: But it refers to your discussions and 19 the approach that you -- taken by you and your superior, 20 Lieutenant Colonel Campbell, as the non-confrontational 21 approach? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And for example, in Item Number 3, 24 Major Fairall refers to: 25 "The most recent incident in Ipperwash


1 which involved the theft of a combat 2 jacket is a good example of the 3 quandary the MP's are in. Under the 4 instructions issued by National Defence 5 Headquarters and COS..." 6 What's "COS"? 7 A: Chief of Staff. 8 Q: "... [Chief of Staff] Land Forces 9 Central Area. This incident should 10 have been actioned by arrest and 11 prosecution. It wasn't due in part to 12 the new local restrictions placed on 13 the Military Police. The incident had 14 nothing to do with the political issues 15 of Ipperwash. It was..." 16 Four (4) again, it's hard to read that. 17 And the -- did the -- as a result of the 18 concerns of Major Fairall and the Military Police was 19 there any change in the approach taken, the non- 20 confrontational approach? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. And perhaps we might mark this 23 exhibit the next -- document the next exhibit? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1844, Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1844: Document Number 7000273. 2 Memorandum from Major Fairall 3 re. Political Restrictions, 4 Camp Ipperwash, December 09, 5 1994. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Then the -- during the winter, fall, 9 and winter of 1994 up to April because we've got an -- 10 we'll come to a document starting April 28th, 1995, but 11 were there any incidents of concern to you that were 12 brought to your attention with respect to the activities 13 of the occupiers on -- on the Army Camp, that you recall? 14 A: Incidents of concern. There was -- 15 there were a few isolated incidents of varying natures. 16 I mentioned before the -- the hunting near the built-up 17 area. On New Year's Eve there was a discharge of a 18 weapon that was reported by the observation post and the 19 Military Police. 20 Q: New Year's, 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: There was a number of minor isolated 24 cases like that. 25 Q: And so that the -- involving either


1 the discharge of firearms, in the one (1) case was close 2 to the built -- you were concerned about the built-up 3 area? 4 A: Primarily. 5 Q: Yeah. Because you knew that people 6 were hunting on the interior? 7 A: Yes. Well, we were also concerned 8 about the well-being of the occupiers too. We didn't 9 want any accidental shooting of any of the occupiers, as 10 well. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: So, yeah. 13 Q: So you -- but -- but the incidents 14 that you recall today were isolated incidents? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Then at Tab 3 there's a document, 17 it's Inquiry Document 7000246, and this is a document 18 authored by you and it looks to me that it's the 19 distribution was Land Forces Central area headquarters, 20 CFB Toronto and the CF Detachment London? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was this document about, 23 sir? 24 A: This was a report to those 25 headquarters regarding an interview that Carl George held


1 in -- I think it was on local radio -- local radio from 2 London. 3 Q: And they -- so you're -- the repor -- 4 perhaps we could mark this the next Exhibit. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1845, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1845: Document Number 7000246. 8 Media coverage, Carl George 9 interview; Media article, 10 March 30, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And Carl George gave an interview on 14 March 17th, 1995 and this document is dated March 30, 15 1995. And you're setting out for your superiors the 16 points made by Carl George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And among the points that he made 19 were that: 20 "A) The occupation of the land 21 Ipperwash was taken upon by individuals 22 to show they were no longer going to 23 back off, pressing for the return of 24 the land. 25 B) The younger members of the Band are


1 difficult to control like in any other 2 community and the reported violence is 3 blown out of proportion. 4 C) The local police are not willing to 5 get involved with controlling any 6 Native rowdyism. 7 D) This behaviour will likely get 8 worse if the Government does not move 9 quickly to return the land and local 10 residents should preserve -- pressure 11 local MP's to force government action. 12 E) The Government will not allow the 13 Natives to work on the clean-up project 14 denying Natives work." 15 And: 16 "F) Accepts the Ministry of Indian 17 Affairs position that, [quote], 'we're 18 all one band and the Government should 19 return the land to everyone." 20 And the -- were these items that had been 21 discussed by Carl George with you Mr. Howse, or some of 22 them? 23 A: In our discussion -- in my 24 discussions with Carl George most of these items were 25 stated in one (1) form or another, yes.


1 Q: And one (1) of the concerns that Carl 2 George had was the length of time it was taking to 3 resolve the issue of the land, Camp Ipperwash? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that -- if I could ask you to 6 turn to Tab 4. It's Inquiry Document 7000288. 7 And is this a document that you prepared 8 or reviewed once it was prepared? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I'll break that down; did you 11 prepare it? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And did -- can you recall today who 14 prepared it? 15 A: This I believe is a summary of the 16 Range Patrols daily observation book. 17 Q: Okay. And for the period April to 18 June 1995, with certain additions on the third page? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And -- but you -- familiar this 21 document back in 1995? 22 A: Pardon me? 23 Q: You were familiar with this document 24 back in -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 2 exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1846, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1846: Document Number 7000288. 6 Incidents at Camp Ipperwash, 7 April to June 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And during the wintertime did the 11 Range Patrol conduct patrols on the interior of the Camp 12 during the winter? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the -- it also reports on the 15 third item on the page -- the first page of P-1846 16 there's the -- 17 A: Could -- could I just make a 18 correction? 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I suggested that this was from the 21 Range Patrol's duty book. I think in -- in further 22 observing that this is probably -- this may actually be 23 from the Area -- Area Operations Centre because there's - 24 - there's items in here that we would not normally have 25 noted.


1 Q: For example, the lawsuit -- 2 A: The Kettle -- 3 Q: -- of May 3rd, 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the May 16th KSBP: 6 "Kettle and Stoney Point request an 7 injunction against the Dillion Ltd. to 8 stop the environmental assessment." 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: But the information that, for 11 example, April 28th, 1995, "civilian vehicle enters the 12 build up area" would have been information -- 13 A: That would have been provided in my - 14 - in the Range Patrol's daily observance book. 15 Q: And in this case the MP vehicles 16 rammed at a low speed by the vehicle? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there were four (4) individuals 19 described as: 20 "Four (4) Native males are in the 21 civilian vehicle." 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- then on April 29th, '95 -- 24 were you made aware of this incident on April 28th, '95? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And then on April 29th, 1995 it 2 reports: 3 "A range patrol vehicle was followed by 4 civilian pattern vehicle." 5 What is a civilian pattern vehicle? Does 6 that have some significance? Do you mean just a 7 civilian -- 8 A: It's a civilian vehicle. 9 Q: Vehicle. 10 "With three (3) Native males in it. A 11 rifle shot is heard and the Range 12 Patrol vehicle takes evasive action and 13 is chased by the civilian vehicle. The 14 Range Patrol vehicle exits the training 15 area and returns to the built-up area. 16 There is no damage to the vehicle or to 17 the Military personnel. This incident 18 is reported in a SIR." 19 What's an SIR? 20 A: Situation -- significant incident 21 report. 22 Q: It is made clear that the patrol was 23 not actually shot at. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So were you made aware of this


1 incident that there was a -- 2 A: It was -- 3 Q: -- shot? 4 A: It was reported to me immediately, 5 yes. 6 Q: And then May 14th/15th, 1995 there 7 was a protest at the main Camp gate? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then on May 21st, 1995 at 23:50 10 hours: 11 "Two (2) Native males removed the Camp 12 north gate at grid 234825 from its 13 hinges. A black vehicle, civilian 14 vehicle, then enters the Camp at high 15 speed and the vehicles shines a 16 spotlight on a MP patrol and then exits 17 the Camp." 18 And the reference there is to -- I got -- 19 one moment, Commissioner. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Putting up on the screen a copy of P- 24 41. Actually the reference earlier to P-41 should have 25 been to P-40.


1 And this is a drawing of the built-up 2 area. And I don't know if it would be better to use P-41 3 or the map that we had from 1704, but can you tell us the 4 fence that's being referred to, the north fence? 5 A: It's a gate that follows in this area 6 here. 7 Q: And what you're pointing out is the - 8 - on the west side is a -- is Army Camp Road? 9 A: This is an interior road. 10 Q: It's an interior road. Oh, I see. 11 So that the gate -- 12 A: Well, it's actually here. This is 13 Army Camp Road here. 14 Q: Yes, so Army Camp Road -- 15 A: And -- 16 Q: -- is on the exterior. The interior 17 road leads -- continues north, parallel to Army Camp Road 18 on the -- in the training area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so the gate was located at the 21 north end of the built-up area? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that's the gate that's referred 24 to here? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. And then it's reported that on 2 May 25th, 1995, there was a gathering at the community 3 centre and the community centre was located out in the 4 ranges along Highway 21? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you're -- 7 A: It's in this area here. 8 Q: You're pointing to an area that's -- 9 you can't see the label but it's near the... 10 A: That -- that's near the mechanical 11 target range area. 12 Q: On the right there's a Sten range. 13 There's a circle on the right, the Sten range, but it's 14 down -- it's located down towards the road, the interior 15 road? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And it's reported that Glenn 18 George was elected leader of the Stoney Point Group? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it's reported: 21 "This is significant because Glenn 22 George is a radical Native who has 23 proven his volatile nature in the 24 past." 25 Had you had any dealing with Glenn George


1 prior to May of 1995? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what were your dealings with 4 Glenn George? 5 A: They were specific meetings while on 6 patrol in the -- in the training area where he would 7 approach the patrol, stop and discuss -- there was a 8 couple of specific instances where we discussed his view 9 of -- of the matters with reference to the -- the land. 10 At one (1) time he showed me a map that 11 specifically had Stoney Point marked on it, and showed 12 that at one (1) time that was part of the -- the Reserve 13 and -- and that it was of particular -- that -- that area 14 was of particular value to the Natives in the area. 15 Q: And so that you had discussions about 16 the history of the land? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And so that your discussions with 19 Glenn George when you were in the training area were not 20 discussions -- confrontational discussions? 21 A: Not at first. 22 Q: And when you say, "not at first," did 23 they -- did -- did they become more confrontational as 24 time went on? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: So that in terms of the timeframe 2 when did you first have discussions with Glenn George in 3 relation to when you arrived at the Camp in July 1994? 4 A: We -- I -- I was first introduced to 5 him, so to speak, in the -- in the -- the winter months 6 of 1994. 7 Q: And then -- and when you first met 8 him in the winter months of 1994 would you describe -- 9 from what you've described were your discussions with 10 him, they were non-confrontational? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: It was an exchange of him telling you 13 why the land was important to the Stoney Point Group? 14 A: Discussions like that, yes. 15 Q: And then when did it change, in terms 16 of time, your discussions, the nature of your discussions 17 with Glenn George? 18 A: It was later in the spring of -- of 19 '95. 20 Q: And April, May, June? 21 A: It was about -- it was about this 22 time when -- when he was recognized as the -- the new 23 chief. And to the extent that I -- I still had periodic 24 conversations and ties with Carl George and I think that 25 the note was -- it was noted to me around this time that


1 -- that Carl no longer had a significant influence over 2 the occupiers and that Glenn was the person to be 3 referred to. 4 Q: And how -- when you -- when you had 5 discussions with Glenn George in May of 1994, what do you 6 recall today did you discuss -- 7 A: May of '95? 8 Q: I mean '95, excuse me. 9 What do you recall discussing with him? 10 What were the nature of your discussions? 11 A: The Military presence of -- on the 12 Camp. It was mostly about what we were doing there, why 13 we were there, why we hadn't left, hadn't moved out yet. 14 It wasn't so much discussions as demands and accusations 15 at times. 16 Q: Fair to say that it -- Glenn George 17 was expressing his frustration that nothing had happened? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that it was taking a long time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the -- I note that on Exhibit P- 22 1846 on May 28th, 1995, there's a reference to the MTR 23 Range Shack is burnt to the ground? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what was the MTR Range Shack?


1 A: MTR stands for mechanical target 2 range and it was the area just to the north actually of 3 where the community centre is. 4 Q: So it's in -- the mechanical range is 5 called the transition range on this document P-1794? 6 A: I believe -- it's that area there, 7 yes. 8 Q: Yes. Okay. And so that building was 9 burnt down and it was reported to you that the local fire 10 department was blocked from entering the area and this 11 notes that: 12 "Captain Howse attempts to resolve the 13 issue but backs off when confrontation 14 looks to be imminent. Once the shack 15 is burnt down, freedom of movement is 16 regained and normal patrolling 17 continues." 18 Did you have a discussion with someone at 19 this point Mr. Howse? 20 A: Yes. Actually there's a -- there's a 21 perimeter fen -- gate right in this area. 22 Q: And the area that you're referring to 23 is below the transition range or the thirty (30) 24 something range. There's a little road that leads down 25 to Highway 21; you can see it on there?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that little road, there's an 'x' 3 on this 1794 and it's immediately to the south of that 4 'x' a road leads from the interior road to Highway 21 and 5 that's what you're referring to? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so what happened at that -- 8 A: I was -- I was met by Dudley George 9 at that spot and I was -- I had -- from Highway 21 I 10 could observe the condition of the range building, it was 11 actually a tower, the structure. I could see that there 12 was nothing left of the structure. I could see that the 13 fire had been contained to that area, that there was no 14 spreading of the fire into the woods or any other part of 15 the training area. 16 I approached Dudley George who was 17 standing at the gate, refusing to let -- the Fire 18 Department had departed by that time and I spoke to 19 Dudley and he stated to me that he wasn't going to allow 20 me in. 21 And I stated that I didn't see any need to 22 enter at that time, at that place. I asked him if he 23 felt that things were contained and that if he -- and he 24 said, yes we -- I think there was a comment that he made 25 that we weren't there to help him fifty (50) years ago,


1 he didn't need our help now. 2 And as I could see that the situation was 3 contained and there was no threat of further damage, I 4 returned to my office and made the report. 5 Q: And were you -- during the period of 6 time from July 1994 to May 1995, had you met Dudley 7 George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And on what occasions did you meet 10 Dudley George? 11 A: From time to time, when conducting 12 range patrols we would pass him while walking or at his - 13 - at his site. 14 Q: He had a trailer at the time? 15 A: Yes, he did. Dudley's -- Dudley's 16 site was in this area. 17 Q: And you're pointing to an area on the 18 map; it's to the south of the rifle range where the rifle 19 range on Exhibit P-1794; it's along Highway -- Highway 20 21? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: In the area -- in this south part of 23 the Area B, on the east side of that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And he had a trailer there and


1 he lived there from 1994; he lived there all 1993 and 2 1994; he lived there all winter? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You were aware of that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: As well as Clifford George lived on 7 the Camp all winter? 8 A: In Site A, yes. 9 Q: And Site A is marked on the map? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And so that -- and what was your 12 relationship with Dudley George at the times that you 13 would meet Dudley? 14 A: Myself or the Camp Sergeant Major 15 would approach him and exchange general greetings. There 16 wasn't anything of significant -- discussions exchanged. 17 It was pleasantries and then how are you's, that type of 18 thing. 19 Q: So that is it fair to say that you 20 had a good relationship with Dudley George, or not a bad 21 relationship? 22 A: We had a fair acquaintanceship, yes. 23 Q: And I note on Exhibit P-1846 that on 24 June 1st, 1995 the removal of assets begins? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: "The Natives take little notice of 2 this and the removal continues." 3 And was that something you reported? 4 A: That was -- in the operation order 5 it's stated that the program -- the removal program would 6 be given on order that was at the -- that was the order 7 given as when the order was given to start the removal. 8 Q: Then on June 9th it's reported that a 9 vehicle patrol is hit by a bag of decaying fish on the 10 driver's side when it passes Site B. And Site B is noted 11 on Exhibit P-1794? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And on June 10th: 14 "A civilian vehicle enters the built-up 15 area and the four (4) male occupants 16 fire rocks from slingshots at the 17 buildings. There is no damage. Later 18 a vehicle patrol in the training area 19 followed by civilian vehicle. The 20 Native occupants throw wooden blocks 21 and fire slingshots at the patrol. 22 There is no damage to the personnel or 23 vehicle on patrol." 24 And that was brought to your attention? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: I take it all of these were brought 2 to your attention? 3 A: In most circumstances I was on site 4 at the time. 5 Q: And then we'll come back to this in a 6 moment but you'll find in front of you a copy of P-1791. 7 It's Inquiry Document 7000117. It's dated May 5, 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And this is described as a brief on 10 Operation Maple Orders and Direction. And did you -- it 11 says "prepare for Commander"; did you receive a copy of 12 this document, sir? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I don't believe I did at the time, 17 no. 18 Q: No, okay. And the Commander here 19 would be the Commander somewhere else? 20 A: This would be the Commander of Land 21 Forces Central Area. 22 Q: Okay. And the document describes -- 23 the document describes the changes to the April 1993 24 document. 25 And were you familiar with the issues


1 raised in this document even though you didn't see it? 2 A: If I could have a minute just to 3 review it? 4 Q: Sure. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Now, you asked if I was aware of the 9 circumstances of this? 10 Q: Yeah, or generally what was 11 discussed. It really -- talking about changes over the 12 periods of time and the need for perhaps changes in the 13 orders -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: For clarification. 16 A: -- I would have been aware -- this -- 17 this came from the -- from the Area Operations Centre and 18 I was in daily contact with the members of that -- that 19 staff so the information that I gave them would have been 20 used in preparation of this brief. 21 Q: Okay. Now, back in May of 1995, as I 22 understand it, during the period of time from July when 23 you arrived to May and perhaps before, the Military 24 Police rotated in and out on approximately six (6) week 25 cycles; is that correct?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you have a liaison with the 3 OPP yourself during the period of time, July 1994? 4 A: Yes, the -- the OPP had assigned 5 Constable George Speck as Military Liaison. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And I met with him on a -- at times 8 on a frequent basis depending on the situation. 9 Q: And did you during the -- the course 10 of your duties at Ipperwash up until you left sometime in 11 August 1995 did you ever meet John Carson -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- from the OPP? 14 A: No, I don't believe I did. 15 Q: And the liaison that you had with 16 Constable George Speck was it a formal or informal 17 liaison? Was it -- did you have set meetings or would 18 you -- 19 A: No, no. 20 Q: -- simply discuss issues as they came 21 up? 22 A: It was an as-needed situation. 23 Q: Okay. And... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: If I could ask you to turn to Tab 6, 2 please. And the -- this is Inquiry Document 7000534. 3 It's dated May 15th, 1995 and it's a -- it's signed by 4 J.E. Batchelor but it's reporting on a demonstration at 5 Camp Ipperwash on May 15th, 1995. 6 And were you familiar with this document? 7 A: Yes, this would -- this would have 8 been a continuation of a document that I sent to -- to 9 Area Headquarters. 10 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark this the 11 next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1847, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1847: Document Number 7000534. 15 Situation Report, 16 Demonstration at Camp 17 Ipperwash, May 15, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And it simply reports on -- you 21 reported up to the -- to London and this -- London 22 reported on basically the information you provided them? 23 A: This is actually a report from Area 24 Headquarters in Toronto. 25 Q: Okay. And --


1 A: I -- I often reported directly to the 2 Area Operations Centre in Toronto. 3 Q: Okay. And it notes at the bottom of 4 page 2 that the -- there's a demonstration against the 5 environmental assessment, this is under number 2, and: 6 "There was a second demonstration 7 taking place..." 8 Stated: 9 "...by approximately ten (10) members 10 of the Stoney Point Group within the 11 Camp. 12 The Group had put up signs along the 13 Camp boundary fence which runs parallel 14 to Highway..." 15 It says 25, but -- 16 A: That should be 21. 17 Q: "...21, stating, [quote], Stoney 18 Point not Kettle Point land' [unquote] 19 [quote]'honk if you support Stoney 20 Point' [unquote]. 21 This demonstration was peaceful and 22 ended at approximately 12:00 hours as 23 well." 24 And you observed that to report? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And then it's reported that: 2 "For the current atmosphere at Camp 3 Ipperwash provides fertile ground for 4 new demonstrations, however it's the 5 assessment of the O/C Camp Ipperwash 6 that none will take place in the new 7 future." 8 And was that your view at the time in the 9 middle of May '95? 10 A: Yes, it was. 11 Q: And then at Tab 7, is actually your 12 report that Exhibit P-1847 appears to have been based on? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I would ask that this document 15 7000629 be the next Exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1848 Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1848: Document Number 7000629. 19 Situation Report, Native 20 Demonstrations, May 15, 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then at Tab 9 there's a document, May 24 19th, 1995, Inquiry document 1009262, and this is the 25 document from Les Kobayashi.


1 Dig -- prior to getting ready for your 2 appearance here, did you see this document? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now, this document refers to notices 5 being provided to users of Ipperwash Park that the 6 Military beach was out of bounds. And the -- it refers 7 to the Military as posting and will be control -- 8 patrolling and enforce trespass notices. 9 Did you have any discussions with the 10 Ministry of Natural Resources or the OPP with respect to 11 keeping campers off the Military beach? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you just tell us a little bit 14 about those discussions? 15 A: There was a -- one (1) or two (2) 16 meetings, brief meetings where it was discussed that the 17 Native occupiers were -- the Military beach was sort of 18 the better of the beaches in that area, between there and 19 the Provincial Park. 20 And as long as the -- as long as the 21 ranges were not being used, it was unofficially 22 sanctioned by the Military that members -- that campers 23 at the Provincial Park could go onto the Military 24 property and use that beach. 25 Q: Yes?


1 A: But it was decided that, that should 2 be curtailed because of the increased Native occupation, 3 the numbers gathering in the -- in the beach area. 4 There was -- in May -- and it was felt 5 that we should try to curtail that. We -- there was some 6 concern, as well, by Lieutenant Colonel Campbell, as I 7 recall, that the liability for any injuries during a 8 confrontation or anything like that on the Military beach 9 between campers and the occupiers, could be an issue. 10 Q: So there was a concern about the use 11 of campers using the beach in the spring of 1995? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it was agreed that no trespass 14 signs would be posted? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And were they posted? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that the Military Police would 19 attempt to keep campers off the Military beach? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And if I could ask you to go to Tab 9 22 and this is the document actually we've already referred 23 to. It's P-1794, Inquiry Document 7000568, and it's 24 dated May 22nd 1995. And it's entitled, Aboriginal Use 25 of Training Area identifiers.


1 And in paragraph 1 there was an indication 2 that: 3 "The number of sites occupied by 4 Aboriginal protesters will grow during 5 the summer months. These sites will be 6 occupied periodically although trailers 7 and/or vehicles may be in place for the 8 duration of the season. Reporting the 9 changes to existing sites and 10 identifying new sites is one of the 11 tasks of Operation Maple." 12 And this was a report prepared by you and 13 outlines using the map that you did shortly after you 14 arrived of the sites where people were located? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then on the third page there's a 17 description of the sites although the names of the 18 individuals have been redacted? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And Site B refers to the two (2) 21 plywood shacks. And we've heard from other evidence that 22 it was, at least, Kevin or Marlon -- Kevin Simon, I 23 believe in one -- lived in one, and then the mobile home, 24 Dudley's place, is where you've described Dudley George's 25 trailer along the interior road near the 'B' area?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so that the -- what you attempted 3 to do is identify the sites that appear on the map 1794? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then if I could ask you to turn 6 to Tab 10. This is Inquiry Document 7000535 and this 7 refers to something that we looked at. It's dated May 8 29th, 1995. It's -- we looked at when we looked a few 9 moments ago at Exhibit P-1846, but it's a report on the 10 burning of the mechanical tower? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And on page 2 there's a reference to 13 your discussion with Dudley George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And there's a reference that, in item 16 number 4: 17 "The structure burned had already been 18 damaged and no longer of any value. 19 The action was not unexpected although 20 the timing could not be predicted. The 21 action shows continued agitation from 22 Stoney Point Group with little result." 23 And this structure had been damaged before 24 it was burned down? 25 A: Yes, it had.


1 Q: And this appears to have been -- this 2 report appears to have been based on a report prepared by 3 you? 4 A: This is a report I -- I prepared 5 myself. 6 Q: You prepared it yourself. I would 7 ask that this be the next exhibit? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1849, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1849: Document Number 7000535. 11 Significant Incident Report: 12 Arson, May 29,1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Then at Tab 11 there's Inquiry 16 Document 7000635. And although this report is also part 17 of the next tab I'm going to deal with it in the next tab 18 as Exhibit P-559. 19 This is a situation report authored by 20 you, Mr. Howse? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the -- it's covering the period 23 September 9th to 12th -- I mean, June 9th to 12th, 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- it refers to a number of


1 five (5) incidents that some of which we've seen. The 2 one was the rotting fish incident? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The other was the individuals 5 entering the built-up area we looked at briefly before? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: The next two (2) incidents actually 8 we did. And at this point in time were you asked to 9 report these incidents on a more regular basis? 10 There appears to be a number of now more 11 regular incident reports or...? 12 A: At this -- this time period the -- 13 the incidents became more frequent. The incidents in 14 some cases became more aggressive. At every incident and 15 at least once a day, just for routine purposes, I was in 16 touch with -- in -- in telephone contact with the Area 17 Operations Centre and anything that -- that they felt was 18 -- was significant they would -- they would often request 19 that I -- that I provide a -- a written report. 20 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark this 21 document the next exhibit? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1850, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1850: Document Number 7000635. 25 Situation Report, Aboriginal


1 Incidents June 09-12, 1995, 2 June 12,1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY Mr. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And at Tab -- Item Number 6 of this 6 document refers to at 10:30 on June 12th as I read it: 7 "A vehicle patrol conducted by OC and 8 CSM of the training area entered Site 9 'K' at coordinates and came into view 10 of Glenn George and two (2) other male 11 Natives, one (1) of which began to 12 throw stones at the vehicle. The 13 vehicle patrol stopped and the two (2) 14 persons exited vehicle. Two (2) rocks 15 were thrown at the persons outside of 16 the vehicle. It was stated by the 17 CSM..." 18 What is a CSM? 19 A: Camp Sergeant Major. 20 Q: Okay. 21 "...that [quote], 'there was no need 22 for stone throwing as the patrol is not 23 -- not to bother or harass any of them 24 but just carrying out routine 25 direction,' [close quote]. Glenn


1 George then moved forward. At this 2 time the stone throwing stopped. When 3 he was within inches of personnel he 4 stated that [quote], 'they, the rock 5 throwers, were also following 6 directions and don't tell them to 7 stop,' [close quote]. He further 8 stated, 'there is no need for you 9 patrol to be in the area. Soon you 10 will be removed from the area,' [close 11 quote]. On further question about who 12 had given the direction there was no 13 response, unlike other incidents when 14 Glenn would proudly state that he was 15 in charge. When further questioned 16 about what area the military would be 17 removed from he stated, We will soon 18 pick you up and put you over the front 19 gate for good." 20 And this incident was reported to you? 21 A: I was a participant. 22 Q: Oh, you participated? And -- 23 A: I -- 24 Q: Oh, you were the officer? 'OC' is 25 you?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then it goes on to the next page. 3 "There was an attempt to explain reason 4 for patrols of the danger areas but 5 failed, at which time the vehicle 6 patrol left the area with no further 7 incident." 8 And the -- so that this is an accurate 9 report of what happened? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: And then on page 2, Item 7: 12 "These incidents show an increased 13 level of intimidation using hard 14 objects such as rocks and oak blocks, 15 rather than apples or potatoes, that 16 were ignored by range patrols. It 17 appears that a period of escalation may 18 be coming as the more that is tolerated 19 the larger the rocks will become." 20 And what were you referring to there, sir? 21 A: During the winter and -- and spring 22 of '95 there were incidents where, as we were passing 23 near some of the sites, particularly the sites in -- in 24 Site 'B', where one (1) or both of the patrol vehicles 25 would be hit with fruits and vegetables, and because


1 there were, you know, they -- they weren't of any concern 2 and caused no damage we -- we pretty much ignored the -- 3 ignored that. 4 But as we got further into 1995, as stated 5 in here, there were other objects that were particularly 6 gathered such as wood blocks or -- or rocks meant to 7 specifically be used as -- as projectiles. And it was my 8 concern that it was a -- a determined -- a determination 9 on the part of the occupiers that they had to be more 10 aggressive in order to persuade us to leave. 11 Q: And so that at this point in time in 12 June, as you indicate, the result was, from your 13 perspective, instead of apples and tomatoes there was 14 rocks and pieces of wood? 15 A: Yes, I had actually seen this. 16 Q: And you actually saw them. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And would you agree with me that it 19 would appear that the occupiers were becoming more 20 frustrating with the length of time it was taking for the 21 Military to leave? 22 A: That was -- I believe their -- their 23 greatest concern the -- yes. 24 Q: And then you note in paragraph 8: 25 "There is also a sense of


1 unpredictability in dealing with the 2 Natives currently occupying the 3 training area, as one week there is no 4 conflict and they acknowledge the 5 presence of the range patrol without 6 fuss and the next week there is a 7 conflict with every patrol." 8 So that I take it from that, it changed 9 from week to week what was happening? 10 A: Yes. The Occupiers came and went 11 from the training area. And depending on who was in the 12 training area and what areas we were patrolling, there 13 may or may not be a confrontation. 14 Q: And I take it the training area was 15 any area outside the built-up area? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And at Tab 12 is a document -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 19 just before you move on, do you think this would be a 20 good point to take a break? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 23 morning break now. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.


1 2 --- Upon recessing at 10:38 a.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 10:55 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Mr. Howse, if you could please turn 10 to Tab 12 of the book in front of you, and this is a copy 11 of Inquiry document 2001361, which has been marked 12 Exhibit P-559. And it's a fax from Detective Constable 13 Speck to Chief Superintendent Coles. 14 And attached to it is a memorandum from 15 Constable Speck reporting on a meeting between you and 16 him and he's -- attaches the incident report that we just 17 marked as Exhibit P-1850. 18 And do you recall having a meeting with 19 George Speck on June 13th, 1995? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And at page 2 of Exhibit P-559 George 22 Speck notes that you had given him the occurrences and 23 concerns document dated June 12th, 1995 that I've just 24 referred to at this meeting and it indicates -- he 25 indicates:


1 "Captain Howse also advised the Natives 2 are aware that the Military has removed 3 their assets out of the majority of the 4 buildings on the Base and he feels the 5 next phase in the escalation of events 6 will be for the Natives to occupy some 7 of these buildings in the built-up area 8 of the Base." 9 And is that something that you recall 10 telling Mr. Speck? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that was your concern, that you 13 thought the next step would be the occupation of some of 14 the buildings? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then in the fourth paragraph: 17 "Captain Howse advised that it appears 18 the Natives will lose their fight in 19 court to prevent the Federal Government 20 from making an environment study of the 21 Base." 22 And did you discuss that with him? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And on what basis did you make that 25 statement?


1 A: It was the feeling of the military 2 that it was very important that the environmental study 3 go ahead before the -- the land could be deemed safe to 4 return or even consider to be returned. 5 Q: And why was that? 6 A: Because of the unexploded -- the 7 possibility of unexploded ordnance. 8 Q: And that's what you're referring to 9 there? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And then did Major -- Sergeant 12 Major Taylor attend with you at this meeting? There's a 13 reference in the third paragraph from the bottom to 14 Sergeant Major Taylor. 15 A: Yes, he did. 16 Q: And that he reported that he had 17 received information that cannot be confirmed, that 18 several members from the Akwesasne Reserve were on Stoney 19 Point this past weekend; do you recall that subject -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- coming up? Now, over the period 22 of time 1993, 1994, and early 1995, supporters of the 23 Stoney Point Group would go to the Army Camp; was that 24 not correct? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And frankly, you'd agree with me that 2 would be expected, that supporters would attend with 3 them? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what was the concern of Sergeant 6 Major Taylor with respect to people coming from 7 Akwesasne? 8 A: The Akwesasne Reserve was -- was -- 9 and members from there were involved with the Oka crisis. 10 Q: And that was his concern? 11 A: And he was concerned that the 12 experiences from Oka may be shared with and then -- and 13 be used as an enticement for members of the Stoney Point 14 Group to react in a similar manner. 15 Q: Okay. And do you recall anything 16 else of significance at the meeting with George Speck? 17 A: I don't believe so, no. 18 Q: Okay. Then I would ask you to turn 19 to Tab 13, please. And this is dated June 16, 1995 and 20 it's Inquiry Document 7000290. It's from Captain 21 Ashford-Smith. Where was Captain Ashford-Smith located? 22 A: He was in the area operations centre. 23 Q: In London or in Toronto? 24 A: In Toronto. 25 Q: And he's reporting to a number of


1 people that are listed on page 2, and this appears to be 2 a report based upon your -- the incidents from June 9th 3 to 12th reported in document P-1850. 4 A: Yes. What he's -- he's using this 5 confidential fax sheet, actually, just to forward to 6 National Defence Headquarters what I had said to the Area 7 Operations Centre. 8 Q: And did you receive a copy of this 9 document? 10 A: The original document I actually 11 produced. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Didn't I? I think it's my signature 14 at the end of it. 15 Q: Well, that was P-1850 which has your 16 signature at Tab 11. And this appears to be a telecopy, 17 but this is based on your report. Your report that was 18 signed is at Tab 11, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: If you look at the last page? 23 A: Yes, that's correct. 24 Q: Okay. And the -- asked Captain 25 Ashford to assist us -- passing up the line the -- the


1 concerns raised by you in this document at Tab 13? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And at page -- the third page of this 8 document -- the fourth page of this document it says Item 9 Number 4: 10 "In the short term..." 11 Can you just turn to -- it's the fourth 12 page in. It's actually page 3 of the -- of the document. 13 Do you see Item Number 4? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Are we on the same page? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "In the short term, assuming that the 18 SPG want confrontation, there are only 19 two (2) unattractive military options, 20 they are to reinforce or withdraw. 21 A short-term political option is to 22 enter into some form of dialogue with 23 the SPG through a mediator, in an 24 effort to convince them that the 25 Government truly intends to give the


1 land -- back the land. 2 Although this proposal would not have 3 been considered in the past, given the 4 alternative Military solutions it may 5 be more palatable now. A long-term 6 solution is to hand over the Camp to 7 DIAND as soon as possible, but remain - 8 - retain responsibility for the land 9 clearance." 10 Q: And was this something that you had 11 discussed with your superiors? 12 A: In general terms, yes. The -- the 13 specifics of -- of how to provide a mediator and things 14 like that was actually from -- from the Area 15 Headquarters, but. 16 Q: Perhaps before I go on I could mark 17 this document the next exhibit? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1851, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1851: Document Number 7000290. OP 21 Maple, Request for Guidance, 22 June 16, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now, the -- if I could just stop,


1 this is June 1995 but at -- when you arrived in, I'd 2 asked you earlier this morning, in July 1994, it was your 3 understanding that the -- there was to be a non- 4 confrontational policy with respect to the occupiers and 5 the Military and that continued on -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that policy? Were you aware, was 8 there a plan that you were aware of, a written down plan 9 for Operation Maple that included the option to remove 10 the occupiers from the Military Base? 11 A: A written plan? As a standard 12 operating procedure there would be contingencies built 13 into any security operational plan; some would be at the 14 direction of the Detachment Commander, for instance, 15 others would be at the direction of the Area Commander. 16 I didn't specifically see a written plan 17 for a contingency to remove the occupiers, but I had been 18 briefed that there was one. 19 Q: And the plan that you were briefed on 20 to remove the occupiers, were there circumstances in 21 which that plan would be engaged? How would that -- 22 A: That -- 23 Q: What was the plan? 24 A: That contingency would be ordered at 25 the -- at the command and discretion of either the


1 National Defence Headquarters through the Area Commander. 2 Q: And what factors would have given -- 3 did you understand -- let me step back. 4 Were there -- what were the triggering 5 factors that would have triggered that plan, or were you 6 aware of those? 7 A: I wasn't aware of the specific 8 triggers. 9 Q: And that plan was never put into 10 place? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Now, if I could ask you to turn to 13 Tab 14, it's Inquiry Document 7000110 and it's a 14 memorandum from Captain Ashford-Smith dated June 19th, 15 1995 and it refers to a telephone conversation between 16 you and Captain Ashford-Smith on June 19th, 1995; do you 17 see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you recall having a 20 conversation with Captain Ashford-Smith in or about June 21 19th, 1995? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in item 1 Captain Ashford-Smith 24 reports: 25 "I made it clear to Captain Howse that


1 reporting incidents in a timely manner 2 is of the utmost importance. I've told 3 him to forward any incidents he deems 4 worthy, especially those involving 5 civilians, to the LFCA AOC or duty 6 officer as soon as practical after the 7 event." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was that something you discussed? 10 A: Yes, it was. 11 Q: And then paragraph two (2): 12 "Captain Howse stated at reference that 13 he will not fax a Sit Rep each Sunday 14 night at 22:00 hours to the Land Forces 15 Central Area Duty Officer. Agreed that 16 this was a good SOP [standard operating 17 procedure]." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: "But made it clear, once again, that 20 all significant incidents must be 21 reported by phone as soon as humanly 22 possible." 23 Then you, in the next -- and that was 24 discussed with him? 25 A: Yes, it was.


1 Q: And you asked for a secure fax. And 2 then there's a reference to a boundary fence at Camp 3 Ipperwash. 4 A: Under, "Recommendations," yes. 5 Q: And item 4 actually and then in item 6 5 -- 7 A: Oh -- 8 Q: "The boundary fence option should be 9 given a great deal of consideration 10 before we build it. I believe that at 11 this stage the Natives might go berserk 12 if we build this fence. [Quote], 'If 13 you built it they will come,' [close 14 quote], would be appropriate epitaph 15 for such a move." 16 And was that something that you were 17 concerned about if the Military built a fence? 18 A: Yes. I was -- I was concerned for a 19 couple of reasons. First of all, access onto the beach 20 for vehicles, the Natives used that area that they were 21 considering fencing off to access the beach with their 22 vehicles. 23 Q: And that would be from the end of 24 Matheson Drive -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- east onto the Military beach? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so they were considering fencing 4 that off and you thought that was a bad idea? 5 A: I thought that would backfire. I 6 thought that was a bad idea, yes. 7 Q: And that fence was never built? 8 A: No, it wasn't. 9 Q: Then item 6, comment, was this -- 10 there's a reference to: 11 "A) I believe that the staff at 12 National Defence headquarters are more 13 concerned about legal liability than 14 resolving the issues at Camp Ipperwash. 15 They want to build a fence to keep 16 civilians from walking onto the beach 17 freely, as this, quote, 'would look bad 18 for us in Court,' close quote. While I 19 agree it would look bad in Court I 20 don't believe a fence of any type would 21 stop civilians from entering the DND 22 beach area. Furthermore, it would be 23 unwise to block [it says of but if 24 should be] off the water line and an 25 unsuspecting civilian could still


1 approach the beach from that direction. 2 In short, a civilian with talented 3 legal counsel could still claim DND was 4 liable." 5 And then: 6 "B) The shortsighted legal view, which 7 is being taken by National Defence 8 Headquarters, could have terrible 9 consequences for the Army and the 10 department. The questions of due 11 diligence and liability have been 12 dragged up far too many times, and 13 fixation on this issue has led National 14 Defence Headquarters to completely 15 ignore the fact that the SPG might 16 react adversely to the building of a 17 fence. As with the rent-a-cop issue 18 National Defence headquarters has 19 chosen to seek comfort in ignorance. 20 The fact is there are Natives on DND 21 property and they are not about to move 22 off it. It is time for high level 23 decisions to be made. Mending fences at 24 this juncture will not make the 25 Ipperwash problem go away."


1 Now, do these two (2) points reflect a 2 discussion that you had with Ashford-Smith and your 3 concerns or his concerns -- his personal concerns? 4 A: There are the personal concerns 5 voiced by Captain Ashford-Smith in specific. In general 6 terms these are not so much -- the legal aspects were not 7 discussed with me so much. 8 But the -- the first comment about how the 9 -- the fence of any type would affect civilians 10 approaching from the water, for instance, that was a 11 concern because there had been boats that had beached -- 12 beached themselves on the military part of -- of the 13 beach, not recognizing that there was a difference. 14 For instance, putting up a fence only 15 creates another barrier for them to have to deal with. 16 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark this the 17 next exhibit? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1852, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1852: Document Number 7000110. 21 Captain Ashford-Smith's OP 22 Maple Various issues and 23 concerns, June 19, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:


1 Q: Then at Tab 15 is a document dated 2 June 20th, 1995 and attached to it is a situation report 3 for the period June 17th and June 18th, signed by you on 4 the last page, Captain Howse -- I mean, Mr. Howse; second 5 last page. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I would ask that this document be 8 marked the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1853, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1853: Document Number 7000291. 12 Situation Report, June 17-18, 13 1995, Native Aggression, June 14 19, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And P-1853, the cover page is simply 18 a distribution of the report? 19 A: Yes. It's -- it's the distribution - 20 - a further -- a further distribution from -- from Area 21 Headquarters up to NDHG. 22 Q: And then you report on ten (10) -- as 23 you describe in item 1: 24 "There were ten (10) minor incidents 25 reported by personnel at Camp Ipperwash


1 during the subject weekend and reported 2 in a verbal summary at the REF..." 3 What's that refer to? 4 A: At the reference. 5 Q: The reference. 6 A: The reference was a telephone 7 conversation between myself and Captain Kok. 8 Q: Okay. And: 9 "All of the incidents were acts of 10 defiance or intimidation and 11 demonstrated a continuing intolerance 12 for anyone but Natives on the 13 property." 14 And you go through the incidents and most 15 of them appear to have been people -- or a number of 16 them, people on the military beach? The first -- 17 A: Yes. There was a couple of instances 18 where civilians reported to camp staff that they had been 19 in some way harassed by the Natives on the -- in the 20 neighbour -- in the area of the military beach. 21 Q: And then starting on -- if you turn 22 over to page 2, there are a number of incidents involving 23 cars entering the built-up area? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And at item 14 on the third page:


1 "Difficulties continue with providing 2 positive identification of Natives 3 involved with incidents but the matter 4 will continue to be pursued." 5 Then 15: 6 "The beach area has been placed out of 7 bounds as of 1 May, '95. However, a 8 further assessment indicates that 9 better signs are necessary and will be 10 in place this week and other notices 11 will be published in local newspapers." 12 And so what you were trying to do was to 13 warn people not to go onto the military beach? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Then at Tab 16 there is Inquiry 16 Document 7000636 and it's a report authored by you, your 17 signature appears on the third page. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it's dated June 22, 1995. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 22 exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1854, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1854: Document Number 7000636.


1 Situation Report Incidents of 2 June 21, 1995, June 22, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And this -- this -- the first page is 6 a fax cover sheet and then the actual report is two (2) 7 pages. And this is entitled a "MPUIR" and I understand 8 that MPUIR stands for major -- Military Police Unusual 9 Incident Report? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And this refers to three (3) 12 incidents? 13 A: The -- okay the situation -- yes, it 14 -- the secure zero zero nine ninety-five (00995) was a -- 15 a report produced by the Military Police supervisor at -- 16 Q: Oh, I see. 17 A: -- at Ipperwash. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And I used that as a reference in 20 producing my situation report. 21 Q: And there was one (1) incident on 22 June 21st involving the bus? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then a second incident on June 25 22nd with the bus entering the built-up area?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the bus, as noted in paragraph 3, 3 collided with a park Iltis vehicle? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then Item Number 4, on June 22nd 6 their bus was located unoccupied just north of the gate 7 to the training area. And that's the gate we looked at 8 earlier on -- 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: -- on the north side of the built-up 11 area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And here it reports that a London 14 military police office -- or -- 15 A: Master Corporal Baker. 16 Q: -- entered the bus and the MP patrol 17 while it was still at the -- near the bus, Glenn George 18 arrived and is reported to have said to someone that he 19 was going to "get my rifle and kill you." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: That was reported to you? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 Q: And you weren't present for that? 24 A: No, I wasn't. 25 Q: And then the occupiers left and came


1 back and fixed the bus and took it away? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then on the next page, at Item 4 Number 6, somebody simply was entering the built-up area 5 who had got lost and was directed by the Commissionaire 6 to the beach? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, at Tab 17, it's a copy of 9 Inquiry Document 7000304 and this is -- refers to a 10 discussion between you and Captain -- Sergeant Clark on 11 the 23rd day of June, 1995, and it appears it deals with 12 the incident report we just looked at? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And perhaps we could mark this the 15 next exhibit? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1855, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1855: Document number 7000304. 19 Significant Incident Report, 20 Aggression, June 23, 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then at Tab 18 there's a further -- 24 and it's Inquiry Document 7000307. It's an incident -- 25 record of the telephone conversation between yourself and


1 Captain Ottavainen, O-T-T-A-V-A-I-N-E-N, on June 24th 2 '95? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you recall -- recall this 5 conversation? 6 A: Yes. This is the -- the written 7 version of the telephone report I made to the -- 8 Q: To the -- 9 A: -- Area Operations Office -- Centre. 10 Q: And this is with respect to a 11 Chrysler -- brown Chrysler attempting to ram cruisers? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 14 the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1856, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1856: Document Number 7000307. 18 Record of Telecon, June 24, 19 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And -- and Item Number 4 on this 23 page, 1856, the locations of the barricades has moved as 24 follows. And I take it there were -- had been four (4) 25 barricades around the built-up area and one (1) was


1 removed? 2 Is that what this refers to? 3 A: This is June of '95. Yes, that's 4 true. 5 Q: Okay. Then at Tab 19 there's Inquiry 6 Document 7000231, and it's another situation report dated 7 June 25, 1995; the period June 23rd to June 25, 1995. 8 And on page 2, that was signed by you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I would ask this be marked the 11 next Exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1857, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1857: Document Number 7000231. 15 Situation report 23, June 25, 16 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And this again reports on the brown 20 Chrysler that's referred to in the telephone conversation 21 at P-1856, plus some other activities by the occupiers? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at Tab 21 there's a copy of 24 Inquiry Document 7000310 and it -- it's a report dated 25 June 27, 1995 and again it's signed by you?


1 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And this was a report of a 3 significant incident involving Glenn George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it involved the use of a 6 discussion over the -- a barricade? 7 A: Yes. One (1) of the barricades was - 8 - all of the barricades were portable, they were put in 9 place for the silent hours. And -- but there was part of 10 the structure to hold the barricades in place, that was 11 left on a more permanent basis. 12 If we followed this road out towards the 13 training area, there's a small bridge that crosses a 14 creek which we -- we used to identify as the -- it would 15 be -- it would be right here. 16 Q: So that you're pointing on the map to 17 an area that's just to the left or to the west of the 18 area, circled Area 'A' where there's a small jog in the 19 road. It goes -- runs west to east and at a point where 20 the road comes down from sports track on the ease side 21 there's a bit of a jog in the road? 22 A: Yes, this is -- this was an 23 unimproved road that actually led off towards the rocket 24 launcher range, up in this area. And this was -- this 25 continued on. But, right at this area there was --


1 there's a small creek and there was a bridge over the 2 creek. 3 This was our -- this was -- this was the 4 spot where we identified the built-up area and the 5 separation between the built-up area and the training 6 area. 7 Q: And there's a dotted line that runs 8 through that little jog, and that represents a creek? 9 A: That represents a creek. There was a 10 small bridge over that and I had temporary barricades 11 placed over that bridge for the silent hours and removed, 12 but there was some infrastructure still there. 13 Q: So that the actual -- the barriers 14 were placed during the night? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then the idea was to remove the 17 barrier in the morning? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in this particular case, there 20 was still some structural -- 21 A: Yes, there was some retaining iron 22 and things like that that the barricades were wired to. 23 But, the barricades themselves -- the bridge was not 24 blocked, but there was some -- some retaining equipment 25 there.


1 Q: Okay. And the -- did you have a 2 discussion with Glenn George over this issue? 3 A: Discussion is -- 4 Q: Did you have an interaction with -- 5 A: Yes, yes. 6 Q: Can you tell us about the 7 interaction? 8 A: It was reported to me by the Military 9 Police that Glenn George was at the bridge removing the 10 retaining parts of the barricade and he was on a farm 11 tractor. I drove -- I drove to the MP Detachment which 12 is in this area anyway. 13 Q: Near the -- 14 A: The MP Detachment was-- 15 Q: Near Building 44 I think we heard 16 that -- 17 A: Yes. And from there, myself 18 accompanied with two (2) -- two (2), I believe, military 19 police moved to about this location here to observe what 20 he was doing. He advanced to my location and we had a -- 21 we had an altercation, verbal and he physically hit the 22 side of my vehicle with his tractor. 23 Q: And the location that you were at was 24 that the location where the road on the east side of the 25 area marked "sports track" meets the -- it's a T-


1 intersection where it meets the interior road running 2 parallel to Highway 21? 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: And so Glenn George came over to your 5 area and you had a verbal altercation -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- and he was on a tractor? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the tractor was -- what did he do 10 with the tractor? 11 A: Well, he was using the tractor 12 initially to pull the iron retention pieces away from the 13 bridge. When he saw me he drove the tractor to my 14 location. After the -- an exchange of words he backed up 15 and then drove the -- the tractor and put -- put one of 16 the large rear wheels into the side -- into the pass -- 17 or the driver's side door of -- of my vehicle. 18 Q: And what was your vehicle? 19 A: It was a military pattern pick-up 20 truck. A five (5) quarter ton pick up truck. 21 Q: Okay. And did anything else happen 22 at the time? 23 A: Among other -- in that altercation 24 Glenn George made a threat to kill myself and the two (2) 25 military police there.


1 Q: And that's -- that incident's 2 reported in this Inquiry Document, 7000310? 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 5 the next exhibit. It's dated June 27, 1995. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1858, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1858: Document Number 7000310. 9 Situation Report 27, June 27, 10 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at Tab 22 is a... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: ...a copy of Inquiry Document 18 2002439. And I take it, and for my purposes I'm not going 19 to mark this, but the -- you reported to the OPP as a 20 complainant? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And the charges were laid against 23 Glenn George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this Inquiry Document 2002439,


1 it's simply the OPP -- and there's a number of things 2 that would have to be redacted from this document. 3 And did you ever see this document? 4 A: No, I did not. This was produced by 5 Constable Speck for the -- the police, I believe. 6 Q: And then at Tab 23 is a copy of 7 Exhibit P-571 which is Inquiry Document 2002441. And 8 this is dated June 28th, 1995. 9 And in Item Number 1 it refers to you 10 having received information that the Natives were to burn 11 down a building in the built-up area of the Base. And 12 then goes on on June 26th, describes the confrontation 13 between -- with Glenn George and the tractor. 14 Did you have a discussion -- I take it you 15 had a discussion with Constable Speck about the incident 16 on -- these incidents? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then were you concerned about a 19 building being burned down in the built-up area? 20 A: It was a general concern. We had 21 received information that the Natives -- the Native 22 occupiers were planning to build -- burn down a building. 23 And there were very few structures left in the training 24 area, so it was sensed that one (1) of the buildings in 25 the built-up area may be the target.


1 But we weren't specifically looking only 2 at the built-up area; there was one (1) or two (2) other 3 structures in the training area that could have been the 4 target as well. 5 Q: And then this document also reports 6 on incidents on June 27th and June 28th and the -- which 7 I believe are covered in the next document at Tab 24 8 which is Inquiry Document 7000311 which is an incident 9 report dated June 28th prepared by you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 12 the next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1859, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1859: Document Number 7000311. 16 Situation Report 28, Native 17 Attacks, June 28, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And this relates a -- among other 21 things, a collision between a civilian car and a -- 22 A: Military -- 23 Q: -- vehicle driven by the Military? 24 A: A Military police cruiser, yes. 25 Q: And then as well, on June 28th there


1 was a -- in Item Number 5 another incident involving a 2 vehicle near Matheson Road and Army Camp -- Matheson 3 Drive and Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that involved Glenn George? 6 A: Yes, Glenn George and -- and another 7 Native were in that vehicle and pursued the -- pursued 8 the outer perimeter patrol, which would have been a 9 Military police patrol, back towards the -- the main 10 gate. 11 Q: And then if I could ask you to turn 12 to Tab 25. At Tab 25 is Inquiry Document 7000309 and 13 it's a report -- attached to the fax cover sheet is a 14 report authored by you dated June 28th? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And this is a report. I would ask 17 that this be marked the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1860, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1860: Document Number 7000309. 21 Complaint Against the 22 Military, June 28, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And this document reports on a


1 complaint made by Glenn George that -- to the OPP, that 2 three (3) Military personnel were caught trying to slash 3 tires in the occupiers' area; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the OPP -- it refers in paragraph 6 2: 7 "While this investigation is ongoing by 8 the OPP this headquarters has been 9 directed not to conduct any 10 investigation on our part to ensure 11 there is no appearance of interference 12 on our part." 13 And was that the information -- the 14 direction you were given? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: Then I would ask you to turn back to 17 Tab 5 and this is a document that -- Exhibit P-411. 18 And prior to getting ready to attend at 19 the Inquiry had you ever seen this document before? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And just so you understand, this is a 22 document created by the OPP and it reflects incidents 23 that the OPP had been made aware of with respect to the 24 Park and CFB Ipperwash. 25 But you, prior to now, have not seen this


1 before? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now, I would ask you to turn back to 4 Tab 26 for a moment, but before we do that you will find 5 in the little yellow binder -- I mean, in the little 6 yellow folder two (2) documents. The first is Inquiry 7 Document 7000106. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it's been marked as P-1792 and I 10 will deal with it first. And this document's entitled, 11 Op Maple Land Forces Central Area Operation Order 01/95. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you receive a copy of this, 14 sir? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And the first item under heading, 17 "Situation 1(a) General," refers to -- it reads: 18 "Since the new SPG leader was elected 19 on 25 May '95, there has been a series 20 of harassment incidents which have 21 become increasingly violent in nature. 22 This aggressive behaviour has been 23 directed at DND personnel in the 24 training and built-up areas, BUA, of 25 the Camp and its civilians who were


1 legally on the beach. 2 These incidents, the threat to forcibly 3 remove DND personnel from the Camp and 4 the difficulties in maintaining law and 5 order, as directed by references (a) 6 and (b), indicate that the 7 irresponsible elements of the SPG are 8 no longer deterred by the current 9 Military presence. 10 As a result of an incident on 25 June 11 '95, all patrols in the training area 12 have been suspended until further 13 notice. The KPSB -- Kettle Point 14 Stony Point Band may also be expected 15 to become more active if the Court does 16 not issue an injunction order to deny 17 the environmental assessment contractor 18 access to the Camp." 19 And the -- goes on to say that: 20 "Land Forces Central headquarters has 21 been requested -- 22 A: Has requested. 23 Q: Or: 24 "...has requested National Defence 25 headquarters to provide further


1 guidance with respect to public safety, 2 the safety of DND personnel, civilian 3 contractors and the security of DND 4 infrastructure at the Camp." 5 And the -- at this point in time all range 6 patrols in the training area had been suspended; is that 7 correct? 8 A: That's correct, yes. 9 Q: And during the period of time down to 10 June -- July 29th, 1995, were the patrols in the training 11 area re-instituted? Or do you recall? 12 A: I'm just trying to -- they -- they 13 did for a short time. I'm just trying to get the 14 timeframe here because it was... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: It did for a short time, but it was 19 suspended indefinitely shortly after that. 20 Q: Okay. And so that would have been 21 sometime after this document? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the document goes on at page 3, 24 item 3(a) under, "Execution:" 25 "General outline: Law enforcement


1 guidelines will be issued separately. 2 The MP manning level will be increased 3 sufficiently to accomplish the task but 4 not to appeal escalatory -- 5 A: Escalatory -- 6 Q: -- yet CFB Toronto Security officer 7 is appointed the Tac Commander [that to 8 be Tactical Commander] of the security 9 force at Camp Ipperwash. The current 10 officer commanding is to remain in 11 location to be employed as directed by 12 CFB Detachment London Commander. All 13 recoverable assets are to be removed 14 during daylight hours by 17 July, '95." 15 So that at this point the recoverable 16 assets were hoped to be removed by July 17th, '95? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you were to remain in place, to 19 be employed as directed by CFB Detachment Commander in 20 London? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you did remain in place? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And then there -- the next part deals 25 with Captain Smith and the Military Police. Go to 3(b)


1 on page 5, the first item: 2 "Continue to monitor, as on a required 3 basis, Native activities on the Camp, 4 but do not patrol the training area. 5 AB/GP..." 6 What are AB/GP, is that a -- 7 A: It's a -- 8 Q: -- armoured personnel carrier? 9 A: Yes, it's a light armoured personnel 10 carrier. 11 Q: "...are not authorized for employment 12 at Camp Ipperwash. Ensure effective 13 signing and fencing of Camp perimeter 14 and protect DND property in the built- 15 up area from theft and vandalism." 16 And 3(b) to (v): 17 "Continue to publicize that the beach 18 is out of bounds to the public and 19 discreetly patrol the area to warn the 20 public." 21 So that one (1) of the things that you 22 were directed and the Military at Camp Ipperwash were 23 directed, was to try to keep civilians off the beach? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then the next policy that I


1 wanted to ask you about is the next document, it's P- 2 1793. It's Inquiry Document 7000640, it's dated June 30, 3 1995 and it's entitled, "Op Maple Law Enforcement 4 Guidelines." 5 And -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- did you receive a copy of this? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And at this point in time the -- 10 Captain Smith is, I believe, had arrived in -- at Camp 11 Ipperwash as of June -- I believe he arrived on June 12 29th? 13 A: Yes. On or about this time he -- 14 Captain Smith arrived to take command -- take tactical 15 command of the security operation. 16 Q: And the guidelines in P-1793 were 17 directed more to him than to you? You needed, of course, 18 to be aware of them? 19 A: I -- yes. There was -- there was a - 20 - on or about that period, first of all, there was -- 21 there was a -- a bit of a hand over between myself and -- 22 and Captain Smith. We were, sort of, redistributing the 23 duties that -- that I had held on my own. 24 So I was aware of all of this and -- and 25 it was still my -- my task to oversee the entire


1 situation, including the security operation. 2 Q: So that the -- your -- you, as 3 Officer Commanding, you still had overall supervision? 4 A: Yes. But -- the supervision and 5 reporting responsibilities, but the actual -- the actual 6 command and direction to the Military Base came from 7 Captain Smith. 8 Q: Okay. I think Cap -- Mr. Smith -- 9 Captain Smith yesterday, I think, described it as 10 nebulous, the -- the dividing line between you and he. 11 He was responsible for the Military Base and he said he 12 thought you were responsible for the administrative 13 issues? 14 A: That's the way it broke down in most 15 situations, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And if -- could I ask you to 17 turn to Tab 26. And you should find at Tab -- I wonder 18 if we could give the witness as copy of P-1840, although 19 I can't recall... 20 A: Is that the map? 21 Q: It's -- if you turn to Tab 26. But 22 I'm going to give you another document, P-184 -- excuse 23 me, 1804. Did I say 1840? I meant 1804. 24 A: Yeah, I have 1804. 25 Q: You have 1804. Okay.


1 A: This is 7000253? 2 Q: Yeah. P-1804 is Inquiry Document 3 7000253 and it's a situation report that we dealt with 4 yesterday with Number 6 with Mr. Smith. 5 But this is apparently the cover page that 6 you were sending on to the distribution list? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then was it your habit to send on 9 the situation reports on behalf of then-Captain Smith, 10 Douglas Smith? 11 A: Yes, that was one of my 12 responsibilities, was to ensure that things were -- that 13 reporting was done through -- there was parallel chains 14 of command at this time as well. 15 The Area Provost Marshall was an 16 information addressee for all of Captain Smith's reports 17 as well as the Area Operations Centre. And he -- he took 18 -- he had those -- he followed that chain more than -- 19 and I ensured that the operational chain was followed. 20 Q: So he would report up on the security 21 side and you would report up on the operational side? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at -- as part of this document, 24 the next document in behind -- in the same tab, behind P- 25 1804 is a redacted copy of part of the P-1804.


1 P-1804 says it's eleven (11) pages and we 2 only have four (4) pages in total. But if you look at 3 the next document, it's Inquiry Document 2005520, it's 4 got some redactions with respect to the Situation Report 5 6. It also has attached to it a bill for collision 6 repairs. 7 And was that bill for the repair of the 8 vehicle that you were driving involved in the -- that had 9 been struck by Glenn George? 10 A: I believe this is the bill for damage 11 done to a police cruiser. 12 Q: The cruiser that had been rammed? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And then there are some 15 documents withheld and another version of your report. 16 So that -- perhaps we could mark 2005520 as the next 17 exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1861, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1861: Document Number 2005520. Op 21 Maple Situation Report number 22 6, July 06, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: But the bill that's referred to is a


1 bill for the cruiser that was rammed towards the end of - 2 - at the end of June? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Then at Tab 28 there's a copy of 5 7000389 and it's a fax that -- from you dated July 10th, 6 1995 and attached to it is a report or document dated 7 July 10th signed by you; is that correct? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 10 the next exhibit? 11 A: P-1862, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1862: Document Number 7000389. CLB 14 Extensions, OP Maple, July 15 10,1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And this document refers to the 19 extensions. And I take it what you're doing is 20 requesting extensions of personnel? 21 A: Yes. The Class 'B' tasks, as we 22 discussed at the beginning of -- of today, Class 'B' is - 23 - is a -- a defined time for full-time service of a 24 reservist called up to augment the regular force. 25 Throughout this operation some of those


1 listed here are -- these are all reservists and -- and 2 these were all extended to, in essence, a further Class 3 'B' contractor or an extended Class 'B' contractor. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: That's myself, three (3) other range 6 patrol, and the four (4) are reserve military policemen. 7 Q: Okay. And then it -- in Item Number 8 1 it says: 9 "The plan to wind down Operation Maple 10 is currently underway with a floating 11 end date at this time. At reference 12 'A' extensions for all Class 'B' 13 personnel tasked to Op is approved for 14 thirty (30) days." 15 And in effect at this point in time, had 16 the July 17th date for the removal of the assets been 17 changed? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And Item Number 5 says: 20 "POC at Camp Ipperwash is the 21 undersigned." 22 What's POC? 23 A: Person of contact. 24 Q: Oh, okay. Now -- 25 A: Person of concern.


1 Q: Okay. Then at the next tab is a copy 2 of Exhibit P-1819, July 23rd, which it appears this is 3 simply an example, if you look on the third page, of you 4 passing the situation reports up to the operational side 5 of the chain of command. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And now were you at the station -- at 8 the Camp on the weekend of July 29th and -- or on July 9 29th, 1995? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 Q: And I understand you were on 12 vacation? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And so when did you return to the 15 Camp Ipperwash area? 16 A: The Sunday night. 17 Q: And what happened on the Sunday night 18 when you returned to the Camp Ipperwash area? 19 A: Upon arrival at the front gate I'd 20 noticed quickly that things weren't as I had left them. 21 I had noticed that there was no Commissionaire at the 22 front gate. I had noticed that there were a number of 23 lights in buildings that we were not occupying. 24 I did not actually enter the Camp. I -- I 25 observed from the Army Camp Road side of the main gate


1 that the situation had definitely changed. 2 And I went into -- I came back into the 3 Town of Forest and met up with the London -- the Public 4 Affairs Officer that was assigned to the area, who 5 happened to be staying at the Forest Golf and Country 6 Club, and he gave me a briefing on what had happened. 7 I had also met up with one (1) of the 8 Commissionaires that normally would have been on duty at 9 the time and he gave me information of what happened as 10 well. 11 Q: And then what did you do? 12 A: For the night I made a temporary -- I 13 gained temporary accommodation at the Golf and Country 14 Club and in the morning I reported to my Commanding 15 Officer in Det London. 16 Q: And I'm going to refer to a couple of 17 documents, but can you tell us generally what your role 18 was, if any, with respect to Camp Ipperwash during the 19 month of August 1995? 20 A: There was a number of things. We 21 were starting -- obviously we were starting a wind down 22 or -- of the security operation. And one (1) of my tasks 23 was to review, secure and organize all of the 24 documentation that I had been putting together for the 25 time that I was there, making sure that as much of the


1 documentation that was available was properly organized. 2 I also participated in exterior patrols 3 with the Military Police from -- that were working out of 4 the London Detachment. And we handed out pamphlets to 5 the local population informing them of the occupation by 6 the Natives and that the Military could not be 7 responsible for anything, as we no longer had a presence 8 at the site. 9 And we also put up signs on the exterior 10 perimeter warning the public. 11 Q: And the pamphlets that you handed 12 out, were they principally down by the beach, in the 13 Park? 14 A: Yes. Yes. 15 Q: To keep people off the -- off the 16 Military beach? 17 A: Both sides of the Military property. 18 Actually we went into the Port Franks area as well and 19 distributed them to the residents there. 20 Q: So on both sides of the -- yes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Okay. Now, if I could 23 ask you to turn to Tab 30 in the book, this is a copy of 24 Exhibit P-1829, Inquiry document 7000129. And you're 25 simply shown -- you're shown along with then Captain


1 Smith as receiving a copy of this document. 2 And it talks in -- did you -- do you 3 recall receiving a copy of this document? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it discusses the pamphlets and 6 signage. And I take it these pamphlets and signs 7 eventually became the ones that you dealt with that you 8 just told us about? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Then at the next tab, Tab 31, is a 11 copy of Exhibit -- it's actually Exhibit P-1830 is the 12 same as this except it doesn't have this cover sheet. 13 And the document in this book is P-7000500, P-1830 is a 14 different number but I don't think we need to mark this 15 simply for this cover sheet. 16 But this was shown as -- you were shown as 17 having received a copy of this document, Mr. Howse? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did you have any -- play any role, 20 this is a situation report, it appears August 2nd to 21 August 3rd, in preparing this report? 22 Other than the fact that information you 23 may have provided in the past may have found its way into 24 the report, but did you have any discussions with Captain 25 -- excuse me, with Major Butters --


1 A: Major -- I don't specifically recall 2 but it's quite possible that I did. 3 Q: Okay. But you don't recall. Now, at 4 Tab 32 is a copy of Exhibit P-1832 dated August 10th, and 5 it's Situation Report 36 issued by Canadian Forces 6 Detachment London, and it's over the name of M.S. 7 Campbell but it appears that you signed this report for 8 him? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it's dealing with the 11 continuation of the liaison duties of Captain Smith? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And at tab -- were you assisting 14 Colonel Campbell? 15 A: As one (1) of the tasks that I was 16 assigned once we relocated to Detachment London, was to 17 assist in -- in the preparation and -- and continued 18 information flow with the -- the Area Operations Centre 19 and -- and others. Myself and Captain Willis, who was 20 the Detachment Administration Officer, worked in tandem 21 with preparing a lot of these. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And in some situations -- forward -- 24 forwarding them in some situations we -- we signed on 25 behalf of the Commander.


1 Q: And frankly, the next, Tab 33, is 2 another example, it's P-1834, 7000657. And it appears to 3 be signed by somebody whose name starts with 'W', that 4 must -- probably was Wilken? 5 A: That's Captain Willis. 6 Q: Willis. And you received a copy of 7 that. Now, if I could take you to Tab 35. This is 8 Inquiry Document 7000365, it's dated August 16th, 1995. 9 And this is Situation Report 40 by CF Detachment London 10 and this deals with the sewage lagoon. And you're shown 11 as receiving a copy; did you receive a copy of this, sir? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And it covers the period August 15th 14 to August 16th. Did you prepare this or have any role in 15 preparing it? 16 A: I believe I worked in concert with 17 Captain Willis in the preparation of this. 18 Q: Okay. And I would ask that this be 19 marked the next exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1863, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1863: Document Number 7000365. Op 23 Maple Situation Report Number 24 40, August 16, 1995. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And then at Tab 36 you'll find, and 3 it's actually been marked -- you'll find, if you go in a 4 few pages, at the eighth page there's a statement dated 5 August 18th, 1995 that's signed by you, Mr. Howse. And 6 the statement's actually starting -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- with -- have been marked Exhibit 9 P-1827, Commissioner. But do you find that, sir? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And this is simply -- do you recall 12 why you gave this statement? 13 A: This was supporting document to the - 14 - to the major document that was being prepared, 15 identifying what losses were created at the Camp and what 16 actions I took before, during and after the -- the 17 occupation of the built-up area. 18 Q: Okay. And I note that if you look at 19 -- in item 3 it's -- in your report it says: 20 "In late June of this year the Native 21 aggression became more pronounced and 22 the end date for all Camp assets to be 23 removed was advanced to 17 July, 1995, 24 but that direction was later rescinded 25 due to a lack of personnel resources


1 available to complete the work ahead of 2 schedule." 3 And have I read that correctly? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that was what happened? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then you report in Item Number 4: 8 "At the time of the immediate 9 withdrawal on 27 July, 1995,..." 10 That should be 29 July? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: "...most of the Camp assets had been 13 removed and the work teams were winding 14 down taking out the last of the assets 15 and cleaning up the Camp area. Only 16 the OP Maple assets and the equipment 17 used in the removal project remained in 18 place." 19 So that most of the assets had been taken 20 out by July 29th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then after the end of August did 23 you play any role with respect to the occupation of the 24 Park in September 1995? 25 A: No, I had been reassigned by that


1 time. 2 Q: And so at some point at the end of 3 August you were reassigned? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And before I close is there anything 6 else you wish to say or add, Mr. Howse, that I've missed? 7 A: No, I don't believe there is. 8 Q: Okay. And I wish to thank you for 9 attending and My Friends will have some questions but 10 that concludes my examination, Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 12 Mr. Millar. Before we adjourn for lunch we'll get a 13 reading of what the situation is. 14 Does anybody have any questions? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll start with Ms. 16 Jones. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 18 Jones...? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: An hour and a half. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ninety (90) minutes 21 for Ms. Jones. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 23 Goodman...? 24 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Five (5) to ten (10) 25 minutes.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Goodman, on behalf 2 of Ms. Hutton, five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 4 Esmonde...? 5 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thirty (30) minutes. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Esmonde, on behalf 7 of Aazhoodena and George Family Group, thirty (30) 8 minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thirty (30) minutes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross, on behalf of 12 the Residents of Aazhoodena, thirty (30) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Mr. 14 Roy...? 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: Ten (10) to twenty (20) 16 minutes depending on what other counsel have. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Roy, on behalf 18 of Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto, ten (10) to 19 twenty (20) minutes. 20 And the total is approximately 3 hours. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if we 22 adjourn now for lunch, we'll come back and we should be 23 able to complete the examination this afternoon. Thank 24 you very much. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you,


1 Commissioner. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 3 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 12:05 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 1:10 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed, please be seated. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 afternoon. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Good afternoon. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, you 17 will note on the desk in front of you is a bit of a fat 18 binder. And I have also provided one (1) to the Witness 19 and to your counsel and to the Witness' counsel. 20 And just so, Mr. Commissioner, you 21 understand, this is a book that we put together some 22 time ago and I certainly don't intend to refer to all of 23 the documents in it. But I just thought it would be 24 easier to have a book with tabs in it rather than hand 25 you up some loose documents.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Ms. Jones. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: So it's not as bad as 4 it looks. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Howse. 8 A: Good afternoon. 9 Q: I want to start off by asking you 10 some questions, just to fill in a little bit in the 11 period 1994 and 1995, and just clarify a few of the 12 issues that were raised by Mr. Millar with you this 13 morning. 14 And I wonder if you could start off 15 looking in the binder that the Commission provided to 16 you. We'll start off with that. And I'm going to ask 17 you to turn to Tab 2 and this is Inquiry Document 1844 18 and this is the memorandum dated December 9, 1994. 19 And I specifically -- Mr. Millar had asked 20 you some questions about the issues that arose out of 21 this memorandum. But I wondered if you could to page 2 22 and point number 5. 23 And what I wanted to see if you could do, 24 Mr. Howse, is just help us understand a little bit more 25 about the scope of the non-confrontation policy that was


1 in place during the period of time that you were at Camp 2 Ipperwash. 3 And there is -- specifically I wanted to 4 take you to the last part of paragraph 5 that talks 5 about. It says: 6 "The Order was that if the Natives are 7 trying to burn a building down on Camp, 8 they, the staff at Ipperwash, were to 9 simply observe and report the 10 incident." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And out of that, I was trying to get 13 a better sense, Mr. Howse, of how it -- is that an 14 accurate statement? 15 Was the non-confrontational policy such 16 that there could, for example, be significant property 17 damage and the Military would not interfere? 18 A: That -- that's very close to a quote 19 from Lieutenant Colonel Campbell, actually. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: But it's a part of the discussion. 22 The -- the overall discussion was, yes, non- 23 confrontational is -- is the only avenue available to us. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Now given that, it would -- we


1 obviously didn't know which, if any, buildings were 2 actually going to be burned -- burned down. So if it was 3 -- the -- the inference was that if it was a building of 4 little significance to us. 5 Q: Right. You would just leave it. 6 A: We would not -- we would not try to 7 save it. Obviously, if there was significant equipment 8 or, heaven forbid, any -- any people -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- in -- in immediate danger, then 11 the non-confrontational aspect would have to be -- have 12 to be tempered with -- with the immediate action of 13 saving lives and -- and valuable equipment. 14 Q: Right. Right. And one (1) of the 15 things I found a little bit unusual when you were giving 16 your evidence was it sounded like you were very involved 17 in the day-to-day operations at the Camp, including going 18 on patrols? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that something that would be 21 normal for a person in your situation at the time, or was 22 that extra attempts that you made to be there and be 23 present and ensure you knew what was going on? 24 A: Of the three (3) people that held the 25 -- held the appointment of officer commanding through the


1 -- the time period of '93 to '95, two (2) of us actively 2 participated in all aspects of that. There was one (1) 3 temporary assignment by a captain who didn't take as much 4 of a hands-on approach, but that was simply his style of 5 leadership. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It was important for the Camp staff 8 and for my own ability to report, to be present and 9 involved as much as possible. 10 Q: And I took it from your evidence 11 earlier that, as well, there may well be situations that 12 would arise on a daily basis, where discretion would have 13 to be exercised in terms of whether or not any kind of 14 enforcement action would need to be taken, or what the 15 appropriate response would be on the part of the Military 16 to issues that were arising with the occupiers. 17 A: From time to time there was, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, can I ask you, please, to 19 turn to the other binder. And I'll try not to flip back 20 and forth too much but there might be a little bit of it. 21 And can I ask you to turn to Tab 2 and 22 you'll see what this is, is a report that is dated 23 February of '94. And I understand that you were not at 24 Camp Ipperwash at that time. Sorry, this is Document 25 7000012.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: But I understood from your evidence 3 this morning that you would have reviewed reports from 4 Camp Ipperwash before you arrived on scene; did I get 5 that right? 6 A: The statement that I made was that as 7 an operations staff officer attached to the Hamilton 8 Headquarters -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- one (1) of my tasks was to review 11 intelligence summaries and situation reports as they came 12 through so I could brief my commander. 13 This particular one, I don't see the -- 14 the brigades or districts on the -- on the address list 15 so it's possible that I did not actually see this -- this 16 particular document. 17 Q: Okay. Could I take you to some 18 passages in this document and see if you were familiar 19 with the contents -- 20 A: Sure. 21 Q: -- or the specific areas that are 22 referred to? 23 And if I can ask you to turn four (4) 24 pages in and I wanted to start at paragraph 14 and go 25 through some of the matters that are reported there, to


1 see if you had knowledge of them before or at the time 2 that you got to Ipperwash. 3 And so starting at paragraph 14 there is 4 an outline of a vehicle on patrol being pelleted by 5 chunks of ice. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And going on to 16: 8 "Weapon fire on or about February 12th, 9 '94." 10 A: Hearing weapon -- 11 Q: "Four (4) rifle shots." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then 17, on February, I believe 14 it's the 12th, '94: 15 "A vehicle pulled into site Bravo from 16 Highway 21 shortly after a shot was 17 heard. Origin unknown and the vehicle 18 departed the site, heading back on 19 Highway 21." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And 18(c) on the evening of 12/13 22 February, '94, no time provided: 23 "Handgun shots were heard in the 24 training area." 25 Were you aware, prior to going to Camp


1 Ipperwash, of reports of gunfire being heard or guns 2 being seen on the -- in the hands of the occupiers or 3 people who were -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- occupying the Base? 6 A: Probab -- perhaps not specifically 7 these instances -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- incidents, but I was aware that 10 there was evidence of weapons on the -- on the Military 11 property. 12 Q: And then going down to twenty (20) it 13 talks about vandalism on February 13, '94: 14 "Patrol discovered that the abandoned 15 TDM north of site Alpha had been broken 16 into. Entry appeared to have been 17 gained by making a crawling sized hole 18 in the northeast corner of the fence. 19 Upon checking Building 104 it was 20 discovered that twelve (12) exterior 21 lights had been shot out, probably by a 22 shotgun." 23 Were you aware of vandalism occurring in 24 the buildings and weapons being used? 25 A: After I arrived on site I -- I


1 physically saw this evidence. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Can I ask you, please, to turn to Tab 7 3? And this is Inquiry Document 7000269. And this is a 8 report, and again I believe it's before the period of 9 time that you were at the Camp. 10 But what you -- what I specifically wanted 11 to take you to was point 3 and it talks about someone and 12 it's blanked out: 13 "Approaching the Military OP and then 14 headed south. Upon approaching the 15 MP/OP, one (1) of the Natives said to 16 an MP, we, [quote], 'have no problem 17 with you guys any more. You don't have 18 to worry about us. It's the KP Band 19 we've got a fight with now,' 20 [unquote]." 21 And what I wanted to ask you was: Before 22 you got to Ipperwash, or at the time you were there, were 23 you aware of divisions or tensions between the Band, the 24 Kettle and Stony Point Band and the people who were in 25 occupation --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- at the Base? And what did you 3 know about that? 4 A: Well, I was aware that the Stoney 5 Point Group was not being -- or the Kettle and Stony 6 Point Band Council did not fully agree with the 7 continuing occupation and the tactics used by some 8 members of the Stoney Point Group. 9 I was aware that some of the members of 10 the Stoney Point Group wanted to follow more traditional 11 governance and traditional ways that the -- that didn't 12 fit with the administration of the Kettle and Stony Point 13 Band. 14 And I -- I think although there -- there 15 was obvious community ties between the two (2) groups, I 16 -- I think it was understood that the Stoney Point Group 17 was looking at being able to return to their own 18 community. 19 Q: Okay. Can then I then, please, ask 20 you to turn to Tab 4, which is Inquiry Document 7000270. 21 And, sir, you'll see at the bottom of it there's a 22 handwritten note saying: 23 "Captain Prentice's brief to Comms LFC 24 and LFLA, March 18th, 1994." 25 And I wonder if you could take a moment


1 and look at this document and let us know if this was a 2 document that you would have reviewed. 3 A: Yes, actually it is one of the 4 documents that I -- that I did review. Captain Prentice 5 was the Officer Commanding from early -- early '93. I 6 can't -- I don't know the exact date when he was assigned 7 the -- the task of Officer Commanding. He was there 8 until about a month before I arrived, mid '94. 9 And he was in this -- this was one of the 10 documents left in a file that I examined upon my arrival 11 and used as part of the background information that I -- 12 I gained. 13 Q: Okay. And can I ask you to turn to 14 page 2 of that document, and you'll see starting near the 15 top of the doc -- of that page, it talks about there 16 being throughout the summer, and this refers to the 17 initial summer of the occupation in 1993, there were 18 approximately a hundred and twenty-five (125) persons 19 present at the -- by the innumerous SPG campsites at all 20 times. 21 And it goes through a little bit of 22 information about the Camp sites. And it talks about -- 23 and then it goes onto say: 24 "Only members of this core element have 25 remained in the camps with the onset of


1 colder weather, numbering a maximum of 2 twenty (20) persons at any given time. 3 I should point out however, that it is 4 the core element which is believed to 5 be responsible for three (3) incidents 6 of arson. 7 Extensive vandalism to the TDM and 8 grenade range and the shooting of a CF 9 helicopter as well as other serious 10 offences. 11 The most recent incident to occur again 12 involved the setting of fires. In this 13 case, five (5) grass fires, on the 14 night of March 12th, 13th, 1994." 15 And that was the information that you knew 16 and were familiar with I take it. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I'd ask that this 19 documents be made the next exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1864, Your Honour. 21 What's the document -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: 7000270. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1864: Document number 7000270. 25 Captain Prentice's Brief to


1 Comd's LFC AND LFLA. March 2 18,1994. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Can I then please ask you to turn to 6 Tab 5 which is Document Number 7000272. And you'll see 7 that this is a report that is dated August 22, 1994. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it that at this period of 10 time you would have been at Camp Ipperwash? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you'll see from looking at 13 paragraph number 3, the information, that it reviews an 14 incident that took place on August 20, 1994. 15 And it talks about Military personnel who 16 was on routine vehicle patrol at Camp Ipperwash. 17 "He was in the training area along the 18 range road across from Dudley George's 19 trailer. A Native male came out of 20 George's trailer swearing and yelling 21 at Genge to get off his land. 22 The male had a beer bottle in his right 23 hand. He raised his hand holding the 24 beer bottle and threw it at the 25 vehicle. He approached the vehicle,


1 reached his arm into the truck window 2 taking a swing at Genge. 3 The male continued to punch and kick 4 the truck. Genge gestured towards the 5 Military Police who were about fifty 6 (50) feet behind him. 7 The Military Police placed a male 8 Native under arrest, read him his 9 rights to counsel and cautioned him." 10 And it then it goes on talking about the 11 subsequent charging and arrest of George Stewart Bradley 12 of Kettle Point. 13 And do you recall that incident? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: And, Mr. Commissioner, can I please 16 have this document made the next exhibit? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1865, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1865: Document Number 7000272. 20 Ipperwash Update Spec-Task 21 19/93, August 22, 1994. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: And I take it in terms of the non- 25 confrontation policy that was in place, that this was the


1 kind of situation, because a Military personnel had been 2 attacked, that it would be seen to be appropriate -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- to press charges in that regard? 5 Can I then please ask you to turn to Tab 6 of the book of 6 documents and this is Commission Document 7000226. 7 And you'll see that it is an excerpt from 8 a log sheet, the log journal Operation Maple, and it is 9 dated October 18th, 1994. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you'll see at the entry at 02:30 12 hours it says: 13 "Ten (10) to twelve (12) rounds tracer 14 fire noted heard." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then further, at 14:50, there's 17 an entry saying: 18 "Vehicle seen at David and Dudley 19 George earlier in the day and perhaps 20 one (1) of the Simon boys who passed in 21 front of Commissionaire, then drove up 22 to Building 45 MPCP. When MP shift 23 super came out to investigate drove to 24 Camp 'A' via Strand..." 25 And I take it that's Strand Road?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: "...and then on to the TOM, past Site 3 'A' and --" 4 A: TDM. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: TDM. 7 Q: TTM -- TDM, I'm sorry. 8 A: TDM. 9 Q: "...and tracer shots fired high 10 towards 'B' Camp and rifle range from 11 open area east of road to TDM. Semi- 12 automatic fire all observed from Op." 13 And do you recall during the period of 14 time that you were at Camp Ipperwash reviewing this 15 report regarding seeing and hearing tracer fire? 16 A: If I'm reading this correctly this is 17 actually a log filled out at LFCA Headquarters which 18 would be the Area Operations Centre. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: So it would be my reporting to the 21 Area Operations Centre that would instigate these entries 22 into the log. 23 Q: I see. So this would be a report 24 that you would make to Headquarters -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- about events that were taking 2 place on the Base? 3 A: There's a reference here that -- just 4 at the bottom of the first entry where it says: 5 "OC will hard copy SIR." 6 That's myself sending a situation -- a 7 Significant Incident Report. 8 Q: Okay. And do you recall during the 9 period of time that you were at Ipperwash hearing other 10 reports of automatic or semi-automatic fire coming from 11 the area where the occupiers were? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you recall receiving reports of 14 Military Police or from the Range Patrols of Military 15 personnel seeing occupiers with guns? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you recall receiving reports from 18 Military personnel of guns being pointed at Military 19 personnel? 20 A: I believe there was two (2) 21 incidences. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Two (2) incidents. 24 Q: And we reviewed, a couple of minutes 25 ago, a situation where one (1) of the Military personnel


1 was attacked by one (1) of the occupiers and -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- action was taken. What was your 4 view about what should happen if anything, if for example 5 guns were pointed by the occupiers at Military personnel? 6 How did you fit that into the world of 7 trying to be non-confrontational? 8 A: Well, understanding that the only 9 weapons that the Military had -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- were sidearms carried by the 12 Military Police, getting into a confrontation where we 13 were outgunned was -- was not a -- a plan that I would 14 hold to. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: Understanding that pointing a weapon 17 or firing a round into the air, although it was 18 confrontational was not life threatening. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: These would be reported. The 21 identification of the individuals, if possible, would be 22 made. All of this information with regards to the use of 23 the firearms would be passed onto the Ontario Provincial 24 Police and if possible allow them to make arrests. 25 As far as us physically trying to take


1 weapons away from -- from occupiers or -- or trying to 2 shoot it out with them, that was -- that was never 3 anything that crossed our minds. 4 Q: Okay. If you turn to Tab 7, and this 5 in Inquiry Document 2002444. And I don't believe that 6 you are specifically involved in this matter but I did 7 want to ask you some questions in general about one (1) 8 of the issues that's raised. 9 And you'll see that five (5) paragraphs 10 down there is a paragraph that talks about: 11 "Staff Sergeant Charlie Bouwman updated 12 the group on the incident that occurred 13 on November 10th, 1994 wherein a 14 vehicle drove along the fence line 15 towards the roads crew working on the 16 ditch on Outer Drive. Bright sunlight 17 produced a glare on the windshield. It 18 was not possible to ascertain the 19 number of people in the vehicle. As 20 the vehicle exited towards the bush 21 three (3) gunshots were heard and 22 workers vacated the scene and the OPP 23 was contacted." 24 This is -- to try and orient you, we heard 25 some significant evidence over the course of the Inquiry


1 about events, in particular, that seemed to be starting 2 or increasing in number in the fall of 1994 where stolen 3 property, stolen vehicles were coming onto the Base. And 4 we heard some evidence about a ditch that was dug along 5 Outer Drive in an attempt to try to stop some of that 6 traffic. 7 And I wondered if you could give us some 8 assistance about whether or not that was the situation 9 that you were -- were aware of and what, if anything, you 10 did about that? 11 A: Yes. I was -- I was aware of this 12 situation. I was not aware at the time that the 13 municipal workers were actually in the area doing that 14 work or I would have provided security if -- if 15 requested. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: However, once it was reported to us 18 and through the -- my chain of command through Lieutenant 19 Colonel Campbell, it was requested that -- that we 20 effected the repairs. Initially the municipality was 21 going to make the repairs to the fence and deepen the 22 ditch in that particular area. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: What we eventually -- well, I first 25 made contact with Carl George and tried to arrange to


1 have the -- allow us to -- to go onto the -- in there and 2 -- and do the work un -- unhampered. 3 We did temporarily patch all of the fence 4 -- all of the perimeter fence, but that area was breached 5 again a little while later. And as a part of my 6 negotiated discussions with Carl George I told him that 7 if it could not be -- if that area could not be held with 8 fencing then I would -- I would put in a trench on the 9 Military property to stop vehicular traffic through that 10 area and I did that. 11 Q: And was that eventful or uneventful? 12 A: That was eventful. 13 Q: And how was that eventful? 14 A: In that the Camp Sergeant Major and 15 the Transportation Master Corporal were actually the 16 people that were assigned to -- to carry out that task 17 with a Military -- Camp -- Camp equipment that we had on 18 site. 19 The Camp -- I was -- I was actually at a - 20 - at an Orders Group in London at the time. It was 21 reported to me on my return from the Camp Sergeant Major 22 that while they were involved with creating this trench 23 the -- there was a -- a vehicle with two (2) Natives that 24 approached them, stopped, created a verbal altercation, 25 drove further into the training area. Now, they were --


1 they were already in the training area at the time. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Drove further into the training area 4 and there was a report of -- of gunshot. 5 Q: Shots fired again? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: The -- the team that I had sent out 9 there completed their task and returned without further 10 incident. 11 Q: Okay. Can I then please ask you to 12 turn to Tab 8 of the book of documents. And this is 13 Inquiry Document 7000235. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, just for 15 the purpose of the record, the document that My Friend 16 referred to, 2002444, has been marked as Exhibit P-409 17 under the Inquiry Document Number 13000079, the minutes. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: And, sir, this is -- I'm asking you 22 to look at Tab 8 to followup on a comment that Mr. Millar 23 had made that over the course of the winter of 1994/1995, 24 there were some isolated incidents that you gave evidence 25 about, you think.


1 And I wanted to refer you to this document 2 because it looked to me as though this was setting out at 3 least some of the incidents that happened in the winter 4 of '94/'95. 5 And if you look at 2(a) it talks about a 6 civilian vehicle being driven at high speed through the 7 built-up area of Camp Ipperwash. 8 "The vehicle drove over a grassy areas 9 between buildings leaving tire tracks. 10 The vehicle was not stopped and it 11 fled into the training area." 12 And this occurred on December 22nd, 1994. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And was this one of the incidents 15 that occurred that winter where vehicular traffic from -- 16 or the occupiers were driving into the built-up area, 17 into the public space? 18 A: Yes. That -- that was -- I wouldn't 19 say that it was a frequent occurrence but it did occur. 20 Q: Okay. And if you look at 2(b): 21 "On December 24th, 1994 at 02:55 hours, 22 a civilian vehicle stopped 300 metres 23 east of the built-up area and a single 24 rifle shot was heard. It is believed 25 the shot was directed at the built-up


1 area of Camp Ipperwash. 2 The vehicle then withdrew into the 3 training area. Ten (10) minutes later 4 the vehicle left the training area and 5 OPP Chatham District Headquarters were 6 advised of the situation." 7 And I take it this was one of the other 8 incidents that happened during that winter? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this is a document that -- you'll 11 see at the bottom of the second page, it appears as 12 though it is signed by Captain Ashford-Smith. 13 Is this a document that you would have 14 seen and reviewed? 15 A: This particular document I would not 16 have a copy of. This is sent from G3 Ops which is the 17 operation centre essentially at -- at Land Force Central 18 Area Headquarters up to NDHQ. 19 So this would be higher in the chain of 20 command. It would not have been sent down to me but it 21 would be built on information that I had sent to the Area 22 Operation Centre. 23 Q: So this would be based on information 24 you provided? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And we don't have the situation 2 report or other reports that you would have made 3 directly. 4 A: Well, at -- at the references? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: They would be the source of 7 information that was used. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: So those were two (2) incidences that 10 were -- that were sent from the -- the London Detachment, 11 the Security Officer, actually. 12 Q: Right. They -- 13 A: But they would have been forwarded 14 from me. 15 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, I'd ask 16 that this be made the next doc -- the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1866, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1866: Document Number 7000235. OP 20 Maple Situation Report, 21 January 20, 1995. 22 23 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry, it's 24 7000235. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: And can I then please ask you to turn 3 to Tab 10. And this is Inquiry Document 7000247. And 4 this is a Situation Report dated April 28th, 1995. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you'll see under paragraph 1, it 7 refers to: 8 "On -- at approximately 00:40 hours on 9 April 28th '95 a white Pontiac 10 Parisienne, no plates, entered the 11 built-up area from the training area in 12 an apparent attempt to entice Military 13 personnel into a confrontation." 14 It looks to me like two (2) to three (3)-- 15 A: Two (2) Military -- 16 Q: -- MP vehicles responded? 17 A: Two (2) Military Police vehicles. 18 Yeah, they would be police cruisers. 19 Q: Okay, responded and observed this 20 vehicle on the PDF square?" 21 A: The Parade Square. 22 Q: The Parade Square? 23 A: PDE. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you. 25 "The civilian vehicle was observed to


1 be driven by a male Native and had four 2 (4) Native passengers." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: "Vehicle made low-speed contact with 5 a MP vehicle on two (2) occasions 6 sustaining minor damage to the Military 7 vehicle. Civilian departed into the 8 training area." 9 And it goes on at paragraph 2 that the 10 driver is suspected to be Glenn George and the principle 11 passenger is suspected to be Anthony George, aka Dudley. 12 And it goes on: 13 "If this information is accurate this 14 incident may reflect a continuing 15 effort by Glenn..." 16 And I suspect that we're missing a portion 17 of the typed text because if you turn over to the next 18 page of my copy it goes: 19 "...of Glenn George, should this type 20 of physical intimidation continues. 21 Safety of Military personnel during 22 potential arrests will be a 23 consideration and a civilian LFA will 24 be [it looks like] notified for backup 25 and custody."


1 Now, this is -- concerns a situation as of 2 April 1995. 3 And first of all are you familiar with 4 this incident in this report? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, can I please 7 ask this be made the next exhibit. It is Document 8 7000247? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1867, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1867: Document Number 7000247. 12 Situation Report 28, April 13 28, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: And I wanted to ask you a couple of 17 questions about references in this document and 18 particularly at the bottom of this first page. It talks 19 about: 20 "If this information is accurate this 21 incident may reflect a continuing 22 effort." 23 And I -- as I say it appears that some 24 text is missing. 25 And you were asked some questions by Mr.


1 Millar about your relationship or what was going on at 2 the Base as between the Military and Glenn George, and I 3 wanted to ask you whether this situation as of April 1995 4 reflected a concern that you would have had about his 5 conduct and the potential for physical violence from him? 6 A: I think the -- the statements that -- 7 that I -- I -- the statement that I made there in 8 paragraph 2 I think reflects a concern about Glenn George 9 being a more hands-on and direct leader than Carl George 10 was, that he's showing initiative and showing that the 11 occupiers may be presenting a -- a more offensive- 12 oriented protest. 13 Q: And I take it over the course of 14 time, and we've heard a little bit of evidence about sort 15 of that build up of incidents and increasing violence 16 over the spring and summer of '95, but I take it that 17 that increase, that build-up, that change in approach 18 would have presented a problem for the Military. 19 On one (1) hand, I take it, if you ignore 20 it or don't respond to it there's a chance that not doing 21 anything will be seen as sort of a tacit approval for 22 that kind of conduct and it may increase? 23 A: The -- the approach I -- I suppose 24 you may -- may refer to our approach as sort of a steady 25 as she goes --


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- type thing. We were aware -- we 3 had -- we -- our -- our primary objectives was -- were to 4 observe and protect high value assets and personnel, to - 5 - and -- and as it's been stated through '93 and into '94 6 there was -- there was high tensions at times, low 7 tensions at others. 8 So this increase would not necessarily be 9 the first -- 10 Q: Spike. 11 A: Spike of -- of high tension -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- and therefore it wouldn't require 14 a specific amendment to our -- our policy. 15 Q: Okay. Can I then, please, ask you to 16 turn to Tab 11, and this is Inquiry Document 7000410. 17 And you'll see that this is a significant incident report 18 regarding a shooting incident from April 29th, 1995. 19 And at paragraph 2: 20 "A vehicle patrol being conducted at 21 the training area encountered a vehicle 22 following at close range while 23 travelling west from GR 253844, first 24 without lights and then with high 25 beams. At patrol vehicle slowed to


1 turn north at GR 230833 a rifle shot 2 was heard from behind and a striking 3 sound was also heard in the vehicle 4 cab. The patrol took evasive action 5 speeding up and exiting the training 6 area at the first available opening..." 7 And it goes on to mention the opening onto 8 a public road. 9 "... was followed by suspect vehicle. 10 A second unidentified vehicle joined in 11 pursuit of the patrol vehicle near the 12 gate, possibly in an attempt to cut off 13 the exit." 14 And then it goes on to indicate that there 15 was no injuries sustained and no damage located on the 16 patrol vehicle. And that: 17 "The identity of persons in the suspect 18 vehicle was unknown." 19 And is this a document that you would have 20 prepared or been familiar with? 21 A: This is a document that I actually 22 prepared. 23 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, can I 24 please have this be made the next exhibit, Inquiry 25 Document 7000410.


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1868, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1868: Document Number 7000410. 4 Significant Incident Report, 5 Shooting Incident, May 12, 6 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: And in terms of your views about what 10 was going on as between the Military personnel and the 11 occupiers, how would you have seen or evaluated this kind 12 of a situation? 13 Would you have seen this as an increase in 14 aggression and danger? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Yes. The -- the action by vehicles 18 and harassment, this was actually a nighttime patrol -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- obviously with the reference to 21 headlights and things. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: And the -- there was a -- a steady 24 increase in the harassment of the nighttime patrols, 25 particularly by vehicles in the training area about this


1 time. 2 Q: And I understand from looking at that 3 document, sir, that as a result of this incident, after 4 dark patrols were cancelled? 5 A: Okay, this was -- 6 Q: And I'm -- I'm looking at -- on the 7 second page at paragraph 5: 8 "As a result of this incident, all 9 after dark patrols have been cancelled 10 until other direction is received." 11 A: Yes, they were suspended at the time. 12 Q: Okay. Can I please then ask you to 13 turn to Tab 13 of this book of documents? And this is 14 Commission Document 7000308 and it is a document that is 15 dated June 2nd, 1995. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And this -- if you want to have a 18 chance to look at it, sir, it talks about increased 19 harassment by militant Natives. 20 Number 1 talks about three (3) recent 21 incidents of harassment involving Natives and Camp staff 22 on June 21st, 1995. 23 "Military patrol, on a mobile patrol, 24 observed a forty-four (44) passenger 25 yellow un-plated school bus on an


1 unnamed dirt road travelling parallel 2 to Army Camp Road. 3 The vehicle was driven by a Native male 4 approximately seventeen (17) years old 5 with one (1) additional Native and two 6 (2) Caucasian males as passengers." 7 And it talks about the bus matching the 8 speed of the mobile patrol and one (1) of the bus 9 occupants throwing out an old camera and base at the 10 patrol. No damage being noted. 11 And the second incident, which occurred on 12 June 22nd, was the yellow school bus entering the 13 built-up area of Camp Ipperwash, again via Strand Road, 14 and it says: 15 "MP located the bus on the parade 16 square where the bus attempted to ram 17 the Military Police vehicle. The 18 Military Police vehicle distanced 19 itself from the bus and noted 20 approximately five (5) to six (6) 21 occupants. 22 Due to the darkness, MP were unable to 23 identify precise number or identities. 24 The bus departed the parade square and 25 headed towards the MP Detachment where


1 it rammed into an unattended MP Iltis, 2 pushing it approximately 10 metres." 3 And it then talks about damage to the 4 Iltis. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Mr. Millar has just corrected me in 9 terms of he said, quite accurately, that you already 10 looked at a document this morning that described the 11 three (3) incidents with the bus. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: That you -- that you yourself had 14 offer -- that -- had prepared. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can I ask you, though, to turn to the 17 fourth -- first of all, would you have reviewed or seen 18 this report at Tab 13? 19 A: I believe this is actually a -- a 20 document that would be passed further up the chain of 21 command. My -- my -- the document that I would create 22 would be lower in the chain of command and -- and would - 23 - and this would follow mine. 24 Q: Okay. Can I ask you -- can you 25 please turn to the fifth page in, and you'll see at


1 paragraph 5 it says that: 2 "On June 2nd, 1995 sources report that 3 the Stoney Point Group conducted a 4 meeting at the Native Community Centre 5 in Ipperwash. Of concern was the 6 presence of a known Mohawk Warrior 7 Society member, Buck Isaac Doxtator, 8 who has a criminal record involving 9 weapons." 10 Were you familiar or were you aware of 11 this information about Mr. Doxtator being on the Base on 12 June the 2nd, 1995? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did that cause you 15 concern? 16 A: It -- it caused concern in the fact 17 that it was an incident or a fact that had to be known by 18 myself and the higher members of the chain of command. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: It was a take note type of concern. 21 Q: Okay. If you then go on, you'll see 22 that a portion of this page has been blanked out but it 23 goes onto 6(s) and there's a -- a comment. And I wanted 24 to see if you agreed with the comment and whether or not 25 it reflected concerns that you had. And it says, you'll


1 see at 6(s): 2 "Glenn George's belligerent action may 3 be a result of growing impatient as 4 well as non-confidence with the elected 5 Kettle and Stony Point Band leadership, 6 to force the DND into a quick solution 7 favouring the Stoney Point Group. 8 The confrontational approach and 9 harassment of DND personnel may be 10 viewed by more militant Stoney Point 11 Group members, such as Glenn George, as 12 the only way to get any action on their 13 cause. 14 The school bus, seemingly prepared for 15 confrontation and the ramming of 16 vehicles, appears to indicate that the 17 more militant SPG [Stoney Point Group] 18 are preparing to force the issue and 19 negotiate on their own terms. 20 It's assessed that more incidents of 21 this nature will occur. The presence 22 of MWS [and I take it that's Mohawk 23 Warrior Society] members and talk of 24 using improvised explosives is 25 disturbing and should be taken


1 seriously. 2 The Stoney Point Group have resorted to 3 arson in the past with little fear of 4 retribution and so could attempt a 5 bombing. The presence and use of drugs 6 and alcohol by these more contentious 7 Natives will likely increase the 8 incidents of confrontation between Camp 9 staff and Natives and place the safety 10 of Camp staff in jeopardy." 11 Can I ask you whether or not you agree 12 with that analysis of the situation and whether that 13 reflects your concerns at the time? 14 A: I will agree with part of it. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: The -- the reference to improvised 17 explosive devices, in particular is -- is one (1) thing 18 that I don't recall ever discussing with the Area 19 Operations Centre personnel or Lieutenant Colonel 20 Campbell. 21 Q: Was that something that you had 22 information about or you didn't have information about? 23 A: Well, understanding that this is the 24 first time that I remember seeing this particular 25 document and recognizing that this is a -- a higher


1 Headquarters document being produced -- 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: -- for reflection by a higher 4 Headquarters and the -- and the NDHQ and -- and -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: The -- the idea of improvised 7 explosive devices just was not something that -- that was 8 discussed at my level. 9 Q: Okay. That was -- was that something 10 you had knowledge of, or not? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. But for the reference to 13 explosives, does the passage I read out reflect your 14 concerns and your views about the situation at the time 15 and the potential problems that could be caused? 16 A: Recognizing that there had been arson 17 involved -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- and again there may be some vague 20 recollection of a -- of a discussion with this type of 21 thing, but my feeling was that -- that explosive devices 22 and bombs were not -- were not going to be a part of the 23 arsenal of the Stoney Point Group. 24 Q: Okay. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Can I then, please, ask you to turn 4 to Tab 21? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And is this a document, sir, that you 9 created? 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Can we get a 11 document number? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry, excuse me. 13 It's Inquiry Document 7000305. Sorry about that. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is a document 15 that I created. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Mr. 17 Commissioner, could this please be made the next exhibit? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1869, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1869: Document number 7000305. 21 Situation Report, Native 22 Aggression, June 23, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 25 Q: And you'll see at paragraph 1 this


1 refers to an incident that occurred apparently on June 2 23rd, 1995, which is an incident that occurred on the 3 beach area where: 4 "Two (2) male Natives were observed 5 removing two (2) large warning signs, 6 loading them onto a yellow forty (40) 7 passenger bus. And on completion of 8 this the Natives then turned the bus 9 towards the patrol vehicle and drove 10 towards it at a high rate of speed. 11 The patrol vehicle backed onto the 12 loose sand at the last minute to avoid 13 a collision. The bus then turned and 14 made a second attempt to collide with 15 the patrol vehicle." 16 It then goes on to talk about how the 17 patrol vehicle ended up disengaging and was -- we've gone 18 through incidents where the bus or other vehicles that 19 were being operated by occupiers or being used against 20 Military personnel while they're on patrol and in the 21 built-up area. 22 This moving that kind of activity out to 23 the beach area, was that a concern to you? 24 A: Yes, insofar as that it was happening 25 anywhere in the training area.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Most of the incursions of vehicles 3 into the built-up area -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- were simply harassment, annoyance 6 type things. Our standard policy for handling those was 7 to -- to park and observe. They usually drove around the 8 -- the Parade Square for five (5) minutes and honked 9 their horns. There's not an awful lot of roads in the 10 built-up area so that it's not a very long trip. 11 And it was -- it was a harassing or 12 annoying gesture that we simply observed and -- and 13 noted. 14 Q: Okay. One (1) of the areas that 15 we've heard some evidence from, particularly from some 16 OPP officers who were at Ipperwash Park during the summer 17 of 1995, were talking about a concern that would arise if 18 campers who were in the Park would see behaviour or 19 conduct on the part of the occupiers; they would be 20 engaged in activities that were in violation of the 21 Criminal Code or other statutes. 22 And that if that kind of activity was seen 23 and was allowed to be seen as not being attended to, that 24 that could create some particular problems in terms of 25 the appearance of the police or concerns that campers or


1 civilians in the area may have about their safety. 2 Did you have any concerns -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't know how he 5 can answer about the concerns or the thoughts of the -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The OPP. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm actually not asking 8 him to do that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that 10 seemed to -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: I've taken him to an 12 incident that occurs on the beach. Mr. Millar this 13 morning took this Witness to a couple of documents that 14 talked about concerns about activity on the beach, with 15 it being so close to the Park and to civilians. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: And I'm asking him 18 whether or not that additional factor of having civilians 19 or people who would be able to observe the conduct would 20 have any increased concerns for him, as opposed to 21 conduct that took place, essentially, on the Base that 22 was quite private as between the occupiers and the 23 Military personnel. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 25 think that's exactly the way that you put the question.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's a different 2 question. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 4 didn't put the question -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't have any 6 trouble if she asks if there was conduct in the presence 7 of civilians and it wasn't -- nothing was done about it 8 and did that concern you? That's a different question 9 than the big question I objected to. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 11 if -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: My -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you put 14 the question the way you -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- apologies then for 16 my question not being clear, Mr. Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Was it a concern to you or did you 21 understand it would be more of a concern for the Military 22 if -- if there -- if conduct that was going on, such as 23 we've gone through, was seen or observed or known by the 24 public? 25 A: It was not a grave concern. It was


1 not an issue that was particularly addressed at the time, 2 either by me, my Camp staff or the Military Police. The 3 -- the observation of -- of -- by civilians of -- of what 4 happened in -- in the Camp was incidental to any actions 5 or incidents that happened within the Camp. 6 We were concerned more with the incident 7 itself and our actions towards the incident not -- we -- 8 we didn't -- weren't concerned in that -- in that 9 instance -- in that light. 10 Q: And I hate to flip you around, sir, 11 but I wonder if you can turn to the other binder. And 12 you can turn please to Tab 19 which is Inquiry -- sorry, 13 Exhibit 1857. 14 A: 19? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: 7000231? 17 Q: That's right. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Mr. Millar asked you some questions 20 about this document and I had some followup questions, 21 specifically at paragraph 1. It says: 22 "At 17:30 hours, 23 June, the O/C 23 received a telephone call from OPP who 24 passed on intelligence from a reliable 25 source. Based on this report orders


1 were issued from Comd Det London to 2 take all necessary preventive measures 3 to stop penetration into the built-up 4 area." 5 And I wondered if you could assist us in 6 terms of what information you had. What was the concern 7 that was -- led to an order to take all necessary 8 preventive measures to stop penetration into the built-up 9 area? 10 A: I believe it was information passed 11 to me by the Detachment Commander or the direction anyway 12 from the Detachment Command were -- it came from the 13 Detachment Commander. 14 And I believe this is the incident 15 referring to information gained that the Native occupiers 16 were planning to burn a -- one (1) of the buildings. 17 Q: One (1) of the buildings in the 18 built-up area? 19 A: One (1) of the buildings in -- in the 20 Camp. 21 Q: In the Camp. 22 A: We didn't -- it was not specific and 23 there were some structures in the training area. 24 Q: Okay. I then wanted to ask you a 25 question about paragraph 2. It says:


1 "At about 23:30 hours a Native on an 2 ATV entered in front of the built-up 3 area in an obvious move to investigate 4 Military actions in this area. 5 One (1) def device was discovered and 6 moved." 7 And I take it 'def device' means that 8 defensive device? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And can you please tell us what 11 defensive device was discovered? Can you give us some 12 assistance with what that means? 13 A: It was a -- what we could consider a 14 temporary barricade. We referred to them as dragon's 15 teeth. It's a post about that long that has triangular 16 metal pieces situated along the -- the pole to create a - 17 - a temporary barrier for -- for wheeled vehicles. 18 That -- that's what's being referred to in 19 that particular spot. 20 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about the use 21 of such defensive devices on the Base; had they been used 22 prior to June 25 of 1995? 23 A: No. It's my -- 24 Q: Sorry. Maybe my question -- I can 25 help you out here a little bit more. During the period


1 that you were at Camp Ipperwash -- 2 A: To my knowledge -- 3 Q: -- had they been -- 4 A: -- this was the first one that we'd - 5 - we'd used these. 6 Q: Okay. And -- 7 A: I knew that they -- they were in the 8 possession of the Military Police during the entire time. 9 But this was the first time that -- that I had given 10 direction to -- to deploy the defensive devices. 11 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 12 why you had given a direction to deploy the defensive 13 device as of June 25th, 1995? 14 A: Because of the information and the 15 discussion that I had with the Commander of the 16 Detachment in London the direction was to try to deter 17 vehicle advancement into the -- the built-up area by the 18 occupiers. 19 And this -- I -- I attempted to achieve 20 this in different stages. The first stage was to provide 21 -- was to deploy immediate temporary defensive devices 22 while more permanent devices could be built and -- and 23 placed. This particular device was only in place in one 24 (1) location for about a half hour and it -- as this 25 particular document will show it was not particularly


1 effective. 2 Q: It was discovered and -- 3 A: It was discovered and moved. 4 Q: Okay. Can I then please ask you 5 using the same binder to turn to tab 21 which is Exhibit 6 Number 1858. And this is a situation report dealing with 7 the issue of Glenn George and the barrier. 8 And I wanted to ask you a few questions 9 about the incident. I understand that you were there? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do I take it from what you told 12 Mr. Millar, that you heard Mr. George say, for example: 13 "You tell the cop and the bitch to back 14 off or I'll get my gun and shoot all of 15 you." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard some evidence 18 from Mr. George about the barricade at issue and 19 according to Mr. George the barricade was one that was 20 made of metal poles and barbed wire and wasn't lit or 21 signed in any way. 22 Can you tell us from your perspective what 23 the barrier -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- about that barrier?


1 A: I believe this morning I -- I 2 described the situation -- 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: -- that -- that the barriers that I 5 had put in place -- and this would have been stage 2 of 6 my -- my plan to -- to provide protection for the built- 7 up area. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Having been able to put in more 10 permanent infrastructure -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- some metal bars, using wire, 13 whether it was barbed or not I don't specifically 14 remember, but I -- it may have been the only wire 15 available to me at the time. But the wire was used more 16 for binding than for use as an obstacle. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: The actual obstacle that went across 19 that particular -- and -- and I refer to that at the 20 bridge. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: The ob -- obstacle that actually went 23 across the bridge was only deployed during quiet hours, 24 during the night hours. 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: And the deployment teams were 2 specifically instructed and I observed that they marked 3 each of the barricades with chemical glow sticks. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: So there was -- there was lighting 6 provided. The barricades, the obstacles themselves, were 7 only in place during the -- the night-time and they were 8 -- they removed the -- some of the support structure as I 9 mentioned before, not the actual obstacle itself, but 10 some of the supportive structure was left in place simply 11 so we didn't have to re-build the -- the entire obstacle 12 each night. 13 Q: Just in that vein I'm wondering, 14 could I please ask you to turn again in that same binder 15 to Tab 37. 16 A: This is the Commission binder? 17 Q: It is the Commission binder, yes. 18 A: Thank you. 19 Q: And you'll see that this is Inquiry 20 Document 600208 and -- 21 A: Oops, okay. 22 Q: -- are you -- are you there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And if you turn two (2) pages 25 in, you'll see that -- sorry, you'll see the second and


1 third pages are newspaper reports; one (1) is the London 2 Free Press and one (1) is the Free Press Sarnia Bureau, 3 talking about the trial of Glenn George. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it appears from these newspaper 6 reports that you testified at Glenn George's trial? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: We had been given -- Mr. George had 9 testified that he plead guilty to the charges that were 10 laid against him as a result of the conduct in June of 11 '95. 12 I take it that's not the case, there was a 13 trial that you testified at? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. Okay. Can I then ask you to 16 look at one (1) more document which is at Tab 24. Again, 17 it's the same book that you're in and this is Exhibit 18 number 1859. And this is a situation report indicating - 19 - or setting out -- describing an incident that occurred 20 on June 28th, 1995. 21 And as I understand it, it describes a 22 situation where during an outer perimeter patrol of the 23 Camp a Military vehicle was chased by a brown station 24 wagon with Michigan plates -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- at a high rate of speed nearly 2 colliding with the vehicle. And as I understand from 3 this document the chase continued onto Highway 21 and the 4 Military vehicle was rammed at high speed and forced into 5 the ditch. 6 Was this, sir, in your view, another 7 increase in terms of a concern in that the tensions 8 between the Military personnel and the occupiers are now 9 spilling out of the Base and this conduct was occurring 10 on public property on the highway? 11 A: Yes, this was a concern. 12 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence, 13 I wonder if you can confirm that that station wagon with 14 the Michigan plates belonged to a Russel Jewel? 15 A: I can't confirm that. 16 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether or 17 not there was an followup to this incident? 18 A: This incident was one (1) of a string 19 and the followup to it -- and it would have been reported 20 through my chain of command, was that there -- there was 21 a significant increase in aggression, and I would have 22 requested specific direction on changing policy with 23 regards to handling these incidents. 24 Q: Because of the dangerousness? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Those 2 are all my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Ms. Jones. 5 Mr. Goodman, I think we'll hear from you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 afternoon. 11 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: These are 14 the same documents you -- 15 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Yes, these are -- yes, 16 those are. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- handed me 18 yesterday. I still have them. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Howse. 23 A: Good afternoon. 24 Q: My name is Adam Goodman and I'm one 25 (1) of the lawyers who represents Deb Hutton who, in


1 1995, was an aide to former Premier Harris. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I have a discrete area that I 4 would appreciate your help in clarifying and it relates 5 to Operation Maple and your understanding of its 6 objectives. 7 Now, I take it that Operation Maple was a 8 rather fluid mission whose objectives, long-term, short- 9 term, changed from time to time, and I say that because 10 the occupation of the ranges commenced in May of 1993 and 11 you're aware of that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the DND decision to close the 14 Base and effect a handover was arrived at in February 15 1994. 16 So I believe that was your evidence 17 earlier today. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So it was a fluid mission? 20 A: I'm not sure that I understand the 21 term 'fluid'. Our policies didn't waiver from incident 22 to incident and they did not change significantly if you 23 follow the -- the operations orders and -- and the 24 guiding direction. 25 So the term 'fluid' --


1 Q: But the -- sorry, the guiding 2 direction? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps, you 4 give him a chance to finish. Carry on. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 7 Q: Oh, sorry. Please I though you 8 were -- 9 A: Okay. I'm sorry. It's just that the 10 term 'fluid' I don't think applies. 11 Q: It -- it doesn't apply but you -- you 12 testified earlier that the decision to actually hand over 13 the Base was arrived at a year after the occupation 14 started, correct? 15 A: The final decision made by the 16 Federal Government was made after the occupation, yes. 17 Q: Okay. Now the Inquiry has a document 18 and I'm not sure if you can look at it. I -- I gave it 19 to you and I'll -- I defer to your counsel on whether you 20 can look at it and it's Inquiry Document 2000899. It's 21 Exhibit P481 and it's Media Plan Operation Maple. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This is the same 23 document that -- 24 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we went through


1 yesterday with Douglas Smith and it has the same problems 2 for this -- 3 THE WITNESS: This has no -- this is -- 4 as it's still classified. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And this man as a 6 former serving officer can't comment on it. It's the 7 same issue as yesterday. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. The 9 document is an exhibit. Perhaps you can ask him a 10 question without referring as you did yesterday. 11 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Yes. That's what I'm 12 going to do. You know, I'll ask you to just put it off 13 to the side. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 17 Q: And I'm going to tell you what's in 18 it and you can comment as to your knowledge. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Now this document suggests that -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 22 going to refer to the document. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The man can't answer 24 questions about the document. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just put a 3 situation to him without referring to the document. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 6 Q: Was it ever your understanding in 7 1993, in the early days, that DND's policy was to effect 8 the removal of the Stoney Point Group using the least 9 amount of force required? 10 A: That would have been something 11 discussed with the previous O/C and I was not aware of 12 that specific direction. 13 Q: So you weren't aware of that 14 direction in the early days of the occupation? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. Now OPP Inspector, John 17 Carson, testified at this Inquiry. I take it you would 18 know who John Carson is? 19 A: I know of him. 20 Q: Okay. And you know who he was in 21 relation to Ipperwash in 1993 then 1995? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And he testified about his meetings 24 with members of the Military in 1993 regarding the 25 occupation of Camp Ipperwash. And for the benefit of My


1 Friends, I'm referring to John Carson's testimony of May 2 11th, 2005 and it's -- it's from pages 50 to 75 and then 3 91 to 98. 4 And specifically, Inspector Carson 5 testified that he met with Major Bob Howell (phonetic) on 6 June 23rd, 1993 and spoke to him about the occupation at 7 Camp Ipperwash. 8 Do you know Major Bob Howell? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Inspector Carson testified 11 that him and Major Howell discussed the -- the DND, OPP 12 response to the occupation that summer of 1993. And he 13 testified that he had the understanding that DND would 14 not seek an injunction to have the OPP remove the 15 occupiers. 16 Do you know anything about that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. He testified that DND believed 19 that it could rely on Section 41 of the Criminal Code and 20 the Defence Controlled Access Regulations to evict the 21 occupiers. 22 Now, were you aware that DND was 23 discussing removing the occupiers under Section 41 of the 24 Criminal Code or the Defence Controlled Access 25 Regulations --


1 A: I was not aware of any particular 2 discussions. 3 Q: You were not aware. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Mr. Carson also testified that he 8 felt that it was his -- that it was his impression that 9 the Military in 1993 were -- felt that the OPP were 10 shrinking in their responsibility and just not taking 11 action to get rid of the occupiers because they were 12 trespassing. 13 Do you know anything about that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And I'd like to take you to Mr. 16 Carson's testimony of May 11th, 2005, pages 91 to 92, 17 where it was asked of him, and I quote: 18 "Was there any decisions made..." 19 Well, let -- let me first take you to the 20 meeting we're talking about. It is the meeting of June 21 28th, 1993, in Toronto, where Mr. Carson met with 22 Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald, Lieutenant Bill Fox, Major 23 General Vernon, and Captain Derube (phonetic). 24 Do you know any of those people? 25 A: Well, Major General Vernon was the


1 commander for Land Force Central Area and the meeting in 2 Toronto would have been at LFCA Headquarters. 3 Q: Okay. Now, the question was asked of 4 him: 5 "Was there any decisions made at the 6 end of this meeting? Was the issue of 7 an injunction discussed at the meeting 8 that you recall?" 9 And Mr. Carson's response was: 10 "Well, they certainly talked about the 11 possibility of acting unilaterally and 12 enforcing the controlled access 13 regulations, but I didn't get a sense 14 whether that decision would actually be 15 carried out or not. It was -- 16 certainly seemed to be their preferred 17 approach. And we highlighted that if 18 that was to happen it would be 19 necessary for Military personnel to 20 make initial arrest then turn over the 21 arrested party to the OPP and we would 22 continue the arrest and process them 23 through the court system." 24 Were you aware of -- of any of these 25 conversations or -- or any of these policies?


1 A: These may have been preliminary 2 discussions before direction was issued to the Military. 3 As it turned out and as the documentation shows I don't 4 believe that any of those -- any of that was -- was given 5 in the final direction. 6 Q: No, no, it -- it wasn't because there 7 was no eviction. No, no. 8 But certainly you don't know that any of 9 this happened in 1993? 10 A: Well, if you say it did in 11 documentation -- I don't -- I wasn't there. I have no 12 first-hand knowledge of it, no. 13 Q: So your evidence on what Operation 14 Maple really entails begins with when you got to the -- 15 to the Army Base in 1994; that's the extent of your 16 knowledge of Operation Maple in this objective? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, he testified -- 18 that's unfair to the Witness. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He's testified and 21 we've looked at many of the documents starting orders in 22 August of '93 after this and he testified he looked at 23 the documents -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and doc -- many


1 documents that he looked at, either when he was in 2 Hamilton prior to going there in July '94 or when he was 3 assigned. So that -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 5 didn't have any -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it's simply unfair 7 to say that. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 9 didn't have an oral briefing but he read many documents. 10 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Sorry. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He read many 12 documents. He had much knowledge from reading documents. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 15 Q: But -- but -- your official knowledge 16 and when you were briefed and fully put into the loop 17 began in 1994? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that 19 isn't exactly fair. 20 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because he 22 had a -- 23 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Well, he -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- fair 25 amount of information.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it's -- it's not 2 -- the Witness has testified that he read situation 3 reports when he was in Hamilton and he learned about what 4 was going on when he was in Hamilton. He was then tasked 5 in July of 1994 to become Officer Commanding and he read 6 more documents at that time. 7 So I think it's -- I don't understand 8 you're officially put in the loop. He -- he read things 9 from when he was in Hamilton. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You 11 can't ask that sweeping a question, Mr. Goodman. 12 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Okay. Fair enough. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Be a little 14 more precise. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 17 Q: If you could turn to -- there's a 18 document that's P-402 and I'm -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- sure that you can look at this 21 one, and this is Inquiry Document 7000282. And this is a 22 letter from Major General Vernon to OPP Commissioner Tom 23 O'Grady dated June 29th, 1993. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I'll read a portion of it to you


1 and I'll -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 3 ask him -- 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 6 Q: Yes, have you ever seen this 7 document? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. I'll -- I'll read you the 10 paragraphs 2 and 3. It says: 11 "The Department of National Defence's 12 aim is to arrive at a long-term 13 peaceful solution to the difficulties 14 presented by the illegal occupation of 15 Camp Ipperwash by the SPG, Stoney Point 16 Group,. However, if there should be a 17 change in the circumstances at Camp 18 Ipperwash that would represent a threat 19 to personnel training or working at 20 Camp Ipperwash or the imminent threat 21 of destruction of public property then 22 it -- then it would be necessary to 23 take action to effect the eviction of 24 the Stoney Point Group, SPG, from 25 Ipperwash."


1 Do you know about this before today? 2 A: I -- this is the first time I've seen 3 this actual document. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, those are 5 my questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Goodman. I think we'll take a short afternoon break 8 now. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 2:34 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 2:52 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed, please be seated. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 20 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good afternoon. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 22 afternoon. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 25 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Howse. My name


1 is Jackie Esmonde, and I'm going to be asking you some 2 questions on behalf of the Aazhoodena and George Family 3 group, which includes some of the Stoney Point people. 4 Now, I'd like to begin by clarifying some 5 of your evidence earlier. You'll recall you were asked - 6 - you were asked some questions about what you knew about 7 the divisions between Kettle Point and Stoney Point. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you told us that you were aware 10 that there were some divisions. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that the Stoney Point group 13 wanted to return to the land. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Were you also aware, sir, that the -- 16 the Stoney Point group, as you called them, considered 17 themselves a separate First Nation? 18 A: Initially, in -- throughout the 19 historical documents and the briefings that I received, I 20 -- I was made aware that there was two (2) distinct 21 communities prior to the expropriation of land. 22 Q: Okay. But did you understand further 23 that the Stoney Point people considered themselves to be 24 a separate First Nation? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And that's something that you learned 2 after you were -- after you reported to Camp Ipperwash in 3 1994? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, I'm interested in learning what 6 you know about the use of the -- the former Camp 7 Ipperwash lands. Now, you told us earlier that you, 8 yourself, did some training there. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when was that? 11 A: At various times throughout the 12 1980's. 13 Q: And would that be primarily in the 14 summer? 15 A: Once during the summer, once -- and I 16 also mentioned that as the chief instructor for the 17 battle school of the 1990's, some of the courses that 18 were being conducted under my supervision were using the 19 training area on weekends during the Fall. 20 Q: And was that training of reserves? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, the summer that you were there 23 in 1994, were there also cadets who were training there-- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- that summer? So, the last summer


1 that cadets trained at Camp Ipperwash was when? 2 A: 1993. 3 Q: 1993. And can you assist us; what is 4 a cadet? 5 A: A cadet is a civilian boy or girl 6 between the ages of thirteen (13) and seventeen (17) who 7 joins a group with a Military affiliation, but not 8 necessarily -- they're not actual members of the 9 Military. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I suppose the idea is that it's hoped 14 that once they become of age, that they may join the 15 Military in some form? 16 A: That's one of the objectives of the 17 cadet movement, yes. 18 Q: And the training -- are you aware, 19 sir, from the reading that you've done and your knowledge 20 of the -- the historical use of Camp Ipperwash by the 21 Military, that the training for cadets was primarily for 22 a few months in the summer? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And after that training stopped in -- 25 in 1993, as you've told us, the cadets were simply


1 trained somewhere else? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: The program wasn't brought to a halt, 4 I take it -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- by closing -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- down the cadet program -- 9 A: They -- they moved to CFB Borden, I 10 believe. 11 Q: When was the last time that combat 12 soldiers were trained at Camp Ipperwash? 13 A: Regular force soldiers? 14 Q: That's right. 15 A: They would have used the ranges 16 throughout the time that the -- that the training area 17 was available. There was a -- a -- there was a battalion 18 of the Royal Canadian Regiment that was actually 19 stationed on that property during the '60's, I believe. 20 But it would have been used as a -- as a 21 training area, primarily for weapons training, by the 22 regular force and the reserves, throughout the entire 23 existence of the -- of the Camp. 24 Q: Okay. So last time that they were 25 stationed there, you said, was in the '60's?


1 A: It's -- 2 Q: Do I have that correct? 3 A: -- my belief -- I don't have the 4 exact timings now. But I knew -- 5 Q: Roughly. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And since that time it's been used as 8 training? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Have you heard of something called 11 the marriage patch? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that was an area on the former 14 Camp Ipperwash that was used as a -- sort of a vacation 15 area for Military personnel and their families? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that was located close to the 18 park, the Ipperwash Provincial Park lands? 19 A: Yes. It's actually identified on 20 that map that was referred to earlier. 21 Q: P-40. Does that -- no. P-1794, 22 which was the map of the former Camp Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. Mr. Millar is going to assist 25 me by putting it up on the screen.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: The marriage patch would have been 5 Site 'M'. 6 Q: Site 'M'? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And how many families could vacation 9 there? 10 A: They were small, portable trailers. 11 I would suggest that there was no more than fifteen (15), 12 perhaps. 13 I don't -- I don't know offhand know the 14 capacity that was laid out by the -- the Camp rules. 15 Q: Did you ever stay there? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And I understand that the families 18 that stayed there paid a small fee? 19 A: Yeah. It would have been -- yeah -- 20 yes. 21 Q: Around about a dollar, something like 22 that? Does that sound -- 23 A: I couldn't -- 24 Q: -- right? 25 A: -- say.


1 Q: You couldn't say. And it would be -- 2 it would include Military personnel, their spouses and 3 their children were also permitted to stay there? 4 A: Yes. The idea was that the Military 5 personnel that were stationed there for instruction and 6 training would be able to bring their -- their wives, 7 their spouses and children for short stays, separate from 8 the built-up area. 9 Q: And would it be fair to say that 10 those spouses and children who were staying in the 11 marriage patch were not limited in terms of where they 12 could go on the former Army Camp base? 13 That is, they weren't limited to strictly 14 the marriage patch area? 15 A: I couldn't say for sure. I would 16 doubt that they would be allowed throughout the training 17 area unrestricted. 18 If there was training going on and -- and 19 there -- they would not want civilian personnel just 20 wandering about the training area. 21 Q: That's right, during training. Apart 22 from that? 23 A: If there was no training being 24 conducted, I imagine that with -- with accompaniment they 25 could go throughout the training area, yes.


1 Q: And was the marriage patch still in 2 place when you arrived at Camp Ipperwash in 1994? 3 A: It was not being used for that 4 purpose. It was recognised as one (1) of the occupying - 5 - occupation sites. 6 Q: I see. Can you -- do you know when 7 the last time was that that was used as a camp site for 8 Military personnel and their families? 9 A: I can't say for sure. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, I take it from your evidence 14 earlier that you're aware now of the general, you know, 15 historical story about how the Military came to -- came 16 into possession of the lands that were used as Camp 17 Ipperwash? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You're aware of the appropriation in 20 1942 under the War Measures Act? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that the lands were to be 23 returned when they were no longer Military necessary? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And were you aware of that in 1994?


1 A: Yes. The reason why I hesitated was 2 because that was actually -- in some of the briefing 3 notes it was mentioned, in other briefing notes it was 4 not, and I didn't get a concise reference for that 5 particular thing so I -- I could not say for sure that 6 that was -- that was part of the -- the deal. 7 I -- I didn't know for -- I -- I didn't 8 know whether or not that was -- that was a part of the 9 expropriation deal because some of the documents that I 10 had included that and other documents did not include it. 11 Q: Okay. So in 1994 you were not 12 certain whether -- 13 A: I was not certain of that. 14 Q: -- the lands were to be returned when 15 they were no longer Military necessary? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: In 1995 were you aware of that? 18 A: It became -- it became clear to me 19 that the Department of National Defence clearly was 20 planning to return the -- the property. 21 Q: Well, that's right, that was 22 announced in February of 1994. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: But my -- my question is more 25 specific than that, it's in term of -- in terms of what


1 your knowledge was -- 2 A: Of the original agreement? 3 Q: -- of the original agreement from 4 1942. And can I take it from the evidence that you've 5 given your answers just now, that in terms of any 6 briefings, formal briefings or documents that you read 7 prior to and shortly after being placed at Camp 8 Ipperwash, you were not aware that that was, in fact, a 9 part of the original -- 10 A: I could not conclusively -- 11 Q: -- order from 1942? 12 A: That's right. I could not 13 conclusively confirm that. 14 Q: Were you aware that the -- the lands 15 that were being used as Camp Ipperwash had been subject 16 of a treaty over a hundred (100) years prior? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you aware that the Stoney Point 19 people had been struggling for some fifty (50) years to 20 have the land returned? 21 A: I was aware that there were periodic 22 protests and demonstrations. 23 Q: Over the course of fifty (50) years? 24 A: Over the course of -- yes, over the 25 course of -- of time of -- of the fifty (50) years.


1 Q: Now, you told us earlier that the 2 feeling of the Military was that it was very important 3 that environmental study go ahead before the land could 4 be deemed safe to return? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the -- the major concern is the 7 possibility of unexploded ordinances? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what are these unexploded 10 ordinances? 11 A: From time to time, when live 12 ammunition is fired they will not detonate and explode, 13 and in some cases they're not found and retrieved, or 14 cannot be retrieved. And in some cases there would be 15 other pyrotechnics and -- and training aids that may have 16 been lost or discarded unexploded. 17 Q: Now, this threat of unexploded 18 ordinances, you'd agree with me it had been there for 19 quite some time? This wasn't a new problem? 20 A: Well, the conditions that created 21 that started in 1942 with the -- the use of live 22 ammunition in the training for -- for war. 23 Q: That's right. So it had been there 24 for -- it wasn't a new problem? 25 A: No.


1 Q: And you're not aware of any earlier 2 environmental study to address this issue? 3 A: Between the time the Military -- 4 Q: Between 1942 and 1994? 5 A: No, I -- I -- no. 6 Q: There were no attempts, that you're 7 aware of, to clean up the land prior to 1994? 8 A: The land was still in the same use. 9 Q: That's right. 10 A: So I -- I think it would have been 11 not very effective to clean it up and then go and dirty 12 it up again, so to speak. 13 Q: Well, the training exercises during 14 the contemporary period, let's say in the '90's, they 15 were limited to -- in terms of firing weapons and so on, 16 they were limited to particular places on the Army Base; 17 is that right? There was the firing range, there was 18 the grenade range -- 19 A: There were -- there were specific 20 firing -- firing ranges where particular weapons would be 21 fired with live ammunition. There was also other areas 22 of the training area that were used for field exercises. 23 And there could be pyrotechnics used 24 anywhere in the training area for that purpose. 25 Q: And when was the last time that that


1 -- that may have happened? 2 A: That could have been done as late as 3 1993. 4 Q: And you'd agree with me that this 5 concern about the possibility of unexploded ordinances 6 did not stop the Military from using the Camp Ipperwash 7 lands as a cadet training area for teenagers from 13 to 8 17? 9 A: That's true. 10 Q: Or from using the land as the 11 Marriage Patch, as you've described to us earlier. 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now throughout your testimony you've 17 used the word 'occupiers' to describe -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- some of the Stoney Point people 20 who were living on the land. And do you use that term in 21 order to connote your view that they were illegal 22 trespassers? 23 A: I used the term 'occupiers' mostly 24 because it was the term that's being used here and it was 25 the usual term that was being used at -- at the time.


1 I didn't have a -- a particular 2 connotation to apply to it in any way. 3 Q: Okay. So we shouldn't take anything 4 then from your use of the term? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Was it your view that they were 7 illegal trespassers? 8 MR. GARY PENNER: That is not an 9 appropriate question to this Witness. He's not here to 10 give legal opinions with respect to -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. GARY PENNER: -- their legal status-- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 14 think it's -- 15 MR. GARY PENNER: -- on those lands. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 17 think that's a fair objection. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: That's -- that's 19 fair enough. I'll try to rephrase it. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 22 Q: Now through your conversations with 23 Glenn George and perhaps others, but we'll focus on Glenn 24 George, were you aware that -- of the fact that Glenn 25 George, in fact, had viewed the Military as trespassers


1 on the land? 2 A: He told me so. 3 Q: And that he viewed the Military as 4 occupiers on the land? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: I just have a few more questions 7 about Operation Maple. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: Now, it's fair to say that the land 10 that was used at Camp Ipperwash, that wasn't an area that 11 was known for growing a large number of maple trees? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And was the use of the term 'maple', 14 in Operation Maple, a reference to the maple leaf in the 15 Canadian flag? 16 A: Perhaps. I didn't nickname the -- 17 the operation, so I couldn't say. 18 Q: And you were not a part of any 19 discussion in which the reason for using that name was 20 disclosed to you? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. 23 Commissioner. Thank you very much. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Ms. Esmonde.


1 Mr. Ross...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 9 Q: Mr. Howse, my name is Anthony Ross 10 and I represent the individuals occupying Aazhoodena. It 11 might have been known to you as the Military Camp. 12 Now, sir, there are one (1) or two (2) 13 things that I'd like to clear up from some answers you've 14 given here today. 15 Now, you indicated to Mr. Millar that when 16 you were in Hamilton you were reviewing situation 17 reports. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And would you have been reviewing 20 situation reports from times prior to 1993? And to give 21 you a helping, it was in May 1993 that the range was 22 first occupied. 23 A: Yes. My -- well, my assignment -- my 24 appointment as Operation Staff Officer was primarily in 25 1993. There were times where I was acting as a staff


1 officer and did review some of the situation reports, but 2 not on a regular basis. 3 Q: So is it fair to say that when you 4 became, for want of better terms, full-time involved at 5 Ipperwash, you had a good understanding of the background 6 from the perspective of situation and operation reports? 7 A: Upon my arrival and in the briefings 8 that I received on my arrival? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah, okay. Now, unfortunately, I 12 must jump around, and the reason is that a lot of the 13 areas that I wanted to cover have been covered by other 14 people, so I'm just filling some gaps. 15 Now, tell me about this Operation Maple; 16 was it in any way connected with what has been known as 17 Project Maple, to your knowledge? 18 A: I'm not aware of what Project Maple 19 was. 20 Q: I see. So if there's a Project Maple 21 and -- that was conducted by the OPP, and an Operation 22 Maple that was directed by DND, it's just, in your view, 23 coincidence that the name "maple" exists in both? 24 A: If that was by design, it was by 25 design at a higher level than mine. I wasn't aware of


1 it. 2 Q: And as far Operation Maple is 3 concerned, you indicated to Mr. Millar that you told him 4 about security operations and information to higher 5 quarters. 6 A: Higher headquarters, yes. 7 Q: Higher headquarters, sorry. Now, as 8 part of Operation Maple, did you have access to high 9 altitude surveillance? 10 A: No. 11 Q: So as far as you are concerned, there 12 were no high flying surveillance or no satellite 13 surveillance of the site? 14 A: There was a restricted flying zone 15 over the Camp, actually. 16 Q: A restricted flying zone, but that 17 would not have affected the Military, would it? 18 A: I guess not. 19 Q: I see. But in spite of that, you're 20 not aware of any high altitude surveillance? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And then you indicated to Mr. 23 Millar that you had knowledge that there was a cemetery 24 located within what I'll call the Camp? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And did I hear correctly to say that 2 when people -- when Aboriginal people wanted to visit the 3 cemetery, they had to provide a written request? 4 A: It was the standard policy laid out 5 and agreed upon between the Kettle and Stony Point Band 6 and the Military, that in order to have free access to -- 7 to the Military property -- this is prior to the -- to 8 the occupation and prior to the unauthorized breaches in 9 the perimeter, so that at any time when a Native wanted 10 to visit the cemetery, then with written -- a written 11 note from -- issued by the Band Council, then we were 12 obliged to -- and obliged is not the correct term, we 13 were willing to allow access to the cemetery. 14 15 Q: Now, I'm a little more confused, 16 because in your response you spoke about free access and 17 then you tell me about the letter. 18 Am I to understand that if anybody wanted 19 to visit the grave of anyone of their ancestors up at 20 Camp Ipperwash, it was necessary that they go through 21 some permission process, either through it's Chief and 22 Council or through DND? 23 A: It's my understanding that was the 24 policy, yes. 25 Q: I see. Now you'd agree with me that


1 those kind of policies would -- would provoke a certain 2 level of resentment in the average person, wouldn't you? 3 A: Give -- I understand the reasons for 4 the policy being in place, given that there was Military 5 training going on. 6 So whether or not it provoked a -- a 7 particular response to an individual is, I guess, a 8 subjective question that I don't feel qualified to 9 answer. 10 Q: Okay, fine. Now, after 1993, May 11 1993, I take it you were aware, through briefings, that 12 there was occupation around May 1993 -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- when they occupied the range? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. Were you aware that there were 17 active negotiations being conducted between personnel 18 from DND and the persons who occupied the range? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you know the name Fred McGuire? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you know -- have you -- and you 23 haven't read any reports from McGuire about discussions 24 he was having with the occupiers? 25 A: His name was made known to me with


1 the discussions about the environmental assessment, and 2 it was my understanding that he had been acting on behalf 3 of the Federal Government with the Kettle and Stony Point 4 Band with regards to -- 5 Q: The environmental clean-up? 6 A: -- the -- the environmental 7 assessment and other issues. He was -- 8 Q: I'm not -- 9 A: He was -- I was not specifically 10 aware. Now I may have at the time but I -- I do not 11 recall now that he was specifically involved with 12 negotiations with the Stoney Point Group. 13 Q: I see. And around October of 1993, 14 were you aware that there was any move afoot between DND 15 personnel and the Kettle Point Police to remove the 16 occupiers? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Doesn't ring a bell. Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And were you aware, sir, that in 23 November of 1993, that a permission was given by the 24 Minister of Indian Affairs to the occupiers to occupy an 25 area 200 metres by 200 metres on the range?


1 A: No. 2 Q: You weren't aware of that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: I see. Did you know Major Walsh, 5 Major A. Walsh? 6 A: Walsh? 7 Q: Major Walsh. 8 A: I'm sorry, the -- the name doesn't 9 sound familiar right now. 10 Q: I see. He was supposed to be part of 11 a negotiating team or a liaison team working with the -- 12 with the occupiers. It doesn't ring a bell? 13 A: Do you -- I don't know the timeframe. 14 Q: In -- in 1993, late 1993. 15 A: I'm not specifically aware of that. 16 Q: I see. Does it help you that he was 17 located in London, Ontario? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Were you aware of a meeting at the 20 Quality Inn? Did you receive any reports that there was 21 a meeting at the Quality Inn in December, late December 22 1993 at which there was a Captain East and a Major Walsh 23 in attendance in negotiation with members from the Stoney 24 Point Group? 25 A: No.


1 Q: Do you know of a Captain East, 2 Captain B. East? 3 A: The name doesn't sound familiar right 4 now. 5 Q: I see. Now, and around in January 6 1994, do you recall, and you must think back, whether or 7 not there was a Captain Prentice that was involved in 8 negotiations between DND and the occupiers? 9 A: Captain Gord Prentice, as I've 10 mentioned earlier, was the Officer Commanding Camp 11 Ipperwash, it would be in 1993 and up to June of 1994. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: So he would have been -- he was -- he 14 was in the same position that I was from '94 to '95. 15 Whether he negotiated directly with the Stoney Point 16 Group, I may have been aware of through documentation but 17 the specific arrangements or anything like that, there 18 wasn't -- in my recollection there wasn't any specific 19 accommodations made by Captain Prentice or any -- 20 anything negotiated specifically. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: So whether or not there were actual 23 negotiations that -- that were involved, I don't know if 24 any -- what decisions, if any, were made. 25 Q: But in -- but in your position, being


1 in charge of the Military Police aspect up at Ipperwash, 2 you would have been -- you have expected to be informed 3 if there were such negotiations, wouldn't you? 4 A: Well, Captain Prentice was doing my 5 position before I was there. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: So -- 8 Q: And were there any reports left 9 behind which led you to -- to conclude that he was, in 10 fact, in negotiations with the... 11 A: I don't specifically recall any 12 documents as identifying negotiations. 13 Q: I see. 14 A: I -- I'm just not sure that -- I mean 15 informal negotiations, formal negotiations, I negotiated 16 with Carl George, for instance. 17 There were always ongoing talks and 18 discussions and I'm -- I'm sure that Captain Prentice 19 carried out the same type of policy that I did. That we 20 were always willing to listen and we were willing to 21 discuss. 22 Whether -- I -- I don't believe that he 23 had the authority to formally negotiate direction without 24 getting approval from a higher command. 25 Q: Were you not in a position to say


1 whether or not he did get such high approval, did -- 2 A: I -- no. 3 Q: And what you can say, is that from 4 your review off the records, you -- you didn't find 5 anything to suggest there was such negotiations? 6 A: That's true. 7 Q: Okay. Now I'd ask you to look, I 8 think under Tab 1, just let me confirm with you that 9 that's Document Number 7000212. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. Over on the second page, under 12 paragraph 5, you said -- and this is over your signature. 13 "When I asked if there was likelihood 14 of criminal activity with respect to 15 the Natives in the training area, it 16 was stated that there was." 17 What criminal activity did you understand 18 was taking place with the Natives? 19 A: If I recall, this was with regard to 20 conversations I had had with the OPP Constable Speck and 21 others, there had been -- there had been cars stolen from 22 other places and driven onto the property. 23 There was one instance in particular I 24 remember where the -- the vehicle was set on fire and -- 25 and burned on Military property.


1 There were instances like that that were 2 occurring on -- on an infrequent basis. 3 Q: And with this infrequent basis, who 4 were the Indians that were bringing the cars onto that -- 5 onto the Camp to burn them; the stolen cars? 6 A: In -- in most cases they were not -- 7 they were not identified. 8 Q: They were not identified, but here 9 they're being characterized as being involved in criminal 10 activities. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I see. It goes on to say: 13 "It was further stated that this type 14 of activity was being dealt with by the 15 OPP, such as car thefts." 16 Now did you ask the OPP what cars were 17 stolen and by whom? Or was it good enough that they 18 happened to be an Indian? 19 A: In -- in specific cases, the OPP 20 would be responding to an act of investigation of a 21 particular vehicle or in pursuit of a particular vehicle, 22 perhaps. The -- I -- I'm not sure how I can answer that 23 question. 24 Q: I'll try to help you. Would you -- 25 would you agree with me that now, eleven (11) years


1 later, it seems as though that might have been an 2 inappropriate way to look at what was happening? 3 A: It would be -- it would have been 4 inappropriate to state, unequivocally, that it was only 5 the occupiers that were participating in this type of 6 activity. 7 Q: I see. Under Tab 2, the bottom of 8 the page, the last sentence says: 9 "The incident had nothing to do with 10 the political issues of Ipperwash." 11 Would you agree with me, sir, that the 12 entire thrust of what was happening, number 1, the 13 occupation of the range, and later the taking over of the 14 barracks, was all political driven by -- by the -- by 15 what was happening as far as the non-return of the Base 16 was concerned? 17 Would you share that view? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And under Tab 3, two (2) pages in 20 there was the article from the Sarnia Observer and it 21 reads -- 22 A: Oh -- 23 Q: Just in the second -- yes, just in 24 the second paragraph: 25 "Late last year the Chippewa Kettle and


1 Stony protested their exclusion from 2 tendering process to hire the company 3 to conduct the environmental study of 4 the Camp." 5 Was there a reason why the Chippewa Kettle 6 and Stony were excluded from being involved in that 7 process? 8 First thing I must ask you -- 9 A: It was -- okay. Go ahead, sorry. 10 Q: I must ask you whether or not you 11 support this as a correct statement that they were 12 excluded? 13 A: Yes. To a degree they were self- 14 excluded. The -- the offer was -- was made to the Kettle 15 and Stony Point Band to allow them to participate. 16 The Kettle and Stony Point Band Council 17 countered with a different proposal that they be allowed 18 to part -- participate in the actual environmental 19 assessment and the -- the decision was made by Mr. 20 McGuire or whoever that the counter-proposal was not 21 acceptable and that the offer was still there for them to 22 be a part of the selection committee but it was 23 understood that they didn't want to participate. 24 Q: And that was the Chief and Council, 25 you said?


1 A: Yeah, I believe it was the Chief and 2 Council that put that proposal together, yes. 3 Q: I see. Now under Tab 12, in response 4 to some questions by Mr. Millar, you spoke about the 5 experiences at Oka may entice Stoney Pointers to act in a 6 similar matter -- manner. 7 What did you mean by that? 8 A: In general terms, it was felt that 9 the experience and the success of the Natives' protest at 10 -- at the -- in the -- the Oka situation would give -- 11 and the -- there was a -- a subsequent Court case as well 12 which all gave encouragement to Natives and Native groups 13 and Native protest groups throughout Canada. 14 It offered an encouragement to -- to 15 continue in that vein. 16 Q: I see. Being involved in the 17 Military, were you also following what was happening up 18 at -- out at Gustafson Lake? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recognize, sir, that Gustafson 21 Lake resulted in a negotiation between the First Nations 22 in British Columbia and the Government? 23 A: I didn't know the details of the 24 final settlement, but I -- 25 Q: I see.


1 A: -- I was aware that... 2 Q: Now, I ask you to look under Tab 12 - 3 - Tab 13, the second full page of text under the 4 paragraph number 4. 5 Do you see that? 6 A: Paragraph number 4? 7 Q: Yes, paragraph number 4. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Five (5) lines down and I would read 10 the second sentence. It says: 11 "A short-term political option is to 12 enter into some form of dialogue with 13 the Stoney Point Group through a 14 mediator in an effort to convince them 15 that government truly intends to give 16 back the land." 17 Now, this document was prepared by you or 18 copied to you? 19 A: No, this was -- this was prepared by 20 Land Force Central Area Headquarters. 21 Q: But I am caught on the term that when 22 you're dealing with government that you've got to try to 23 convince people that they're truly intending to give back 24 the land. 25 Is this in the context that they had made


1 many provinces -- promises before but had not returned 2 the land? 3 A: I couldn't say for sure where that -- 4 what the specific motivation behind making that point 5 was. 6 Q: I see. And being conscious of time 7 under -- under Tab Number 19 there are these defensive 8 device -- defensive device that was deployed by DND? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: That's that metal rod about five (5) 11 -- about 4 to 5 feet long with the dragon's teeth on it? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Exhibit 1857? 14 A: 7000231? 15 Q: No, I would say -- yes, yes, 321. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: Sorry, 231. Now, as far as deploying 18 these devices are concerned was there any specific places 19 that these should be placed -- put? 20 A: It was my direction that on a 21 temporary basis there would be one (1) placed on the 22 north side of the soccer or the sports field leading 23 towards the rocket launcher range just filling in a -- a 24 gap in the trees there for -- for a -- this was the 25 immediate or the first stage of the defensive measures


1 that -- that I was taking. 2 Q: And to your knowledge, it was only 3 one (1) of these -- these equipment that was deployed, 4 just one (1)? 5 A: At that time I believe Captain Smith 6 also deployed one (1) in July. 7 Q: There was evidence that one (1) of 8 these were placed just around the corner, evidence by -- 9 by one (1) of the residents that one (1) was placed just 10 around the corner and he ran over it with a motorbike. 11 Would it be planned to place these around 12 a corner? 13 A: It was not actually around a corner, 14 it was -- it was on an open stretch. It wasn't run over 15 to my knowledge, it was recognized, identified, and 16 removed, simply tossed aside and then -- and it was -- 17 while it was a motorbike or an ATV it was a small-wheeled 18 vehicle. 19 Q: Yeah. Under Tab 32, sir, paragraph 20 number 3 the last sentence said: 21 "Is it recommended that any portion of 22 any invoice left unpaid by the Native 23 population could be deducted from the 24 compensation awarded -- awarded them 25 for back payment on the land use?"


1 See the statement? 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: So am I to understand then that it 4 was -- that this was intended to say that if a particular 5 group become involved in some unapproved activity that 6 the full group must bear the burden by way of a deduction 7 from their compensation? 8 A: This was a recommendation written 9 after the built-up area had been occupied -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- by -- by the Natives. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And the -- the organization and 14 governance of the Natives occupying the built-up area was 15 not a concern that we had. Or whether or not it was one 16 (1) individual or where it was the entire group. 17 This is referring to financial concerns 18 that -- I mean, this was a recommendation that was made 19 to hold the -- the Native occupiers in the built-up area 20 collectively responsible. 21 Q: I see. So it was just intended to 22 apply to those in the built-up area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I see. Now you seemed to have had a 25 substantial amount of interaction with Glenn George, am I


1 correct? 2 A: I'm not sure that the term 3 "substantial" would be correct but there was 4 considerable. 5 Q: Yes. More so than with any other 6 occupier? 7 A: As much as any other occupier. I 8 wouldn't say more so. 9 Q: I see. Were you aware of the fact 10 that prior to the occupation of the Camp, that Glenn 11 George did not have a criminal record? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You weren't aware of that. Finally, 14 there are one (1)or two (2) things I must ask you with 15 respect to -- sorry, Mr. Commissioner, I don't know if 16 I'm over my time but -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 20 Q: -- there's just a couple more. 21 Mr. Howse, when you were responding to 22 questions from counsel for the OPPA, you spoke about 23 gunfire, that there was gunfire from time to time and 24 that it was reported to the OPP. 25 Am I correct with that?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And as a result of the gunfire that 3 was reported to the OPP, were you aware of anybody being 4 charged? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Were you aware of anybody who was 7 actually firing these guns? 8 A: Somebody was. 9 Q: I could imagine so but it could 10 either be you or me so to speak. 11 A: I -- you're asking me if we could 12 positively identify? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: In most cases, no. 15 Q: And in the -- other than the most 16 cases, you said in most cases, no. Tell me about the 17 cases which don't fall in that category. 18 A: There was an incident where a Range 19 patrol accompanied by the Military Police had a weapon 20 fired between the two (2) vehicles. And we specifically 21 saw the -- the person that -- that fired the -- the shot. 22 Q: So you were -- 23 A: That was -- that was reported to the 24 OPP. 25 Q: So you identified an individual and


1 that was reported to the OPP? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Was that person charged? 4 A: Not to my knowledge. 5 Q: I see. Also with respect to a 6 document which has been marked as Exhibit 1866, you were 7 in -- you indicated to counsel for the OPPA that you 8 believed that a shot was fired at the built-up area. 9 Do you remember that line of ques -- that 10 -- that line of response? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now tell me, I could imagine somebody 13 hearing a shot but how could you hear a shot and 14 determine what it was fired at unless it hit something? 15 A: In the direction of -- the Military 16 are trained in -- in sound recognition for instance. And 17 at -- depending on the situation, you can tell whether it 18 was fired in -- in a specific direction. 19 Q: I see. So this came from your 20 experience and training. 21 A: It wasn't my particular experience 22 and training that -- that made that judgment. 23 Q: Well then who was experienced in 24 training made that judgment? 25 A: It was the Military Police that was


1 in -- I believe they were in the observation post. 2 Q: I see. Somebody who's not giving 3 evidence and we cannot cross-examine, correct? 4 A: That's true. 5 Q: Okay. That's good. Now with respect 6 to Exhibit Number 1867, you were speaking about two (2) 7 people in a vehicle in an apparent attempt to incite 8 confrontation; you remember that response to Counsel for 9 the OPPA? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: In an apparent attempt to incite 12 confrontation. Was that your view or was that something 13 reported to you? 14 A: It was my view. 15 Q: And you'd agree with me that that is 16 speculation? 17 A: This was a -- this was an occurrence 18 that had been carried out infrequently from the time that 19 I had arrived and it followed the same type of pattern 20 and it was, in my view, designed for annoyance and to 21 create a response. 22 Q: Yeah. But -- so -- but you'd agree 23 with me that it was speculative? 24 A: Oh, nobody actually stopped and told 25 us why they were doing it, no.


1 Q: Yeah. And you went on to say: 2 "It was suspected to be Glenn and 3 Dudley George." 4 A: That would have been reported to me 5 at the time by the Military Police that were involved in 6 the situation. 7 Q: You see what I'm trying to do is put 8 those two (2) statements together, because they came 9 straight from your answers with respect to Exhibit 1867 10 when you told Counsel for the OPPA it was in an apparent 11 attempt to incite confrontation and when asked further, 12 it was suspected to be Glenn and Dudley George. 13 So we got an apparent attempt and a 14 suspicion coming from a third party to you, am I correct 15 with that? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And then with respect to Exhibit 22 1868, that was the situation where there was a vehicle 23 and another one (1) behind and you said that there was a 24 rifle shot that was fired? 25 A: Without the document in front of me,


1 I can't -- I can't -- 2 Q: 1868. As a matter of fact, I will -- 3 I will try to help you because I don't want to go through 4 -- well, if you need to, I'll go through your document. 5 My note says that there was a rifle sound, 6 possibly in an attempt at the vehicle. No damage was 7 done. Occupiers unknown. 8 A: This is when the Range patrol vehicle 9 was on an exterior perimeter patrol? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Okay, I -- what specifically was the 12 question, I'm sorry? 13 Q: Was that your information or 14 information that was provided to you? 15 A: That was information provided to me 16 by the Range patrol -- 17 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Those are 18 my questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Mr. Ross. 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Commissioner, I thank 22 you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 24 Good afternoon, Mr. Roy. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm coming to the


1 lectern unarmed, so you can -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you're 3 unarmed, I see -- 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- anticipate what I'm 5 going to say. Having regard to the examination before 6 me, I don't have any questions on behalf of ALST. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Roy. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you very much. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 11 any questions, Mr. Penner? 12 You have an opportunity. You don't? 13 That's fine. Mr. Millar...? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I have 15 no questions as well and I'd like to take this 16 opportunity to thank Mr. Howse for attending here today 17 and giving his evidence. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much for giving your evidence, thank you. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 21 22 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner, 25 before we finish today, because we don't have another


1 witness today... 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we only 3 have one (1) more witness. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We only have one (1) 5 more witness, but we had -- we've put together a binder 6 of material with respect to Dale Linton -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- that has twenty- 9 four (24) items, one (1) of which has already been marked 10 as an exhibit, but for ease of reference, we've got 11 twenty-four (24) documents, various handwritten notes. 12 Unfortunately, some of them were one (1) 13 pages, so, that's why you create this large number. 14 I've only a few moments ago sent out a 15 revised list to My Friends, plus a revised -- plus -- 16 actually, I don't think it's gone out yet because I 17 couldn't get these Wave files. 18 But we have three (3) wave files involving 19 calls to Dale Linton's -- by Dale Linton attempting to 20 get to the Hannahson residence which, as we heard from 21 Mrs. Hannahson, didn't have a telephone number -- 22 telephone. But there were attempts to contact them. 23 And I would simply ask that this binder 24 of the twenty-four (24) documents plus the CD be marked 25 collectively as an exhibit.


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1870, Your Honour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1870. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1870: 3-ring Black Binder 5 containing Linton documents 6 and CD. 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner, it 9 might be -- there may -- perhaps Mr. Penner might -- 10 there may be a difficulty tomorrow with our witness 11 because of illness but Mr. Penner is monitoring that 12 situation. 13 And what we suggest is that we wait and 14 see until tomorrow morning. Hopefully Mr. French will be 15 well enough to be able to attend at the video -- Video 16 Conference Centre in -- in Ottawa to give his evidence. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will 18 reconvene at 9:00 a.m. the normal way -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9:00 a.m. tomorrow 20 morning. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and we'll 22 find out. We'll get an update at that time. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Hopefully Mr. French 24 will be up ready on the screen. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's


1 hope that our last witness is able to attend and testify. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll wait 5 and see tomorrow then, right? 6 MR. GARY PENNER: Yes, that's right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll 8 adjourn now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Thank you, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 13 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, June 28 at 9:00 a.m. 14 15 --- Upon adjourning at 3:47 p.m. 16 17 18 19 Certified Correct 20 21 22 23 ___________________________ 24 Carol Geehan 25