11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 26th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Rebecca Cutler ) 8 9 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 10 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 11 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 12 Basil Alexander ) 13 14 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 15 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 16 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 17 18 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 19 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 20 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 21 22 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 23 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 24 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 Gary Penner ) William Douglas Smith 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 14 5 6 WILLIAM DOUGLAS SMITH, Affirmed 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 18 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 163 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 199 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Adam Goodman 216 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 227 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Cameron Neil 243 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Julian Roy 249 14 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 253 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 256 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1787 Ken Deane apology, pages 393, 394, 405, 4 407 and 408, September 19, 2001. 14 5 P-1788 Ken Deane apology, pages 390, 391, 6 420 to 424, September 19, 2001. 15 7 P-1789 Document Number 7000078. Security 8 Guidelines for Use of Ipperwash TRG 9 Facilities, August 1993. 23 10 P-1790 Document Number 7000093. Op Maple 11 Operation Order 1/94, November 29, 1994. 24 12 P-1791 Document Number 7000117. Brief for 13 Commander Op Maple orders and direction, 14 May 05, 1995. 25 15 P-1792 Document Number 7000106. Op Maple LFCA 16 operation order 01/'95, June 1995. 26 17 P-1793 Document Number 7000640. Op Maple Law 18 Enforcement Guidelines, July 04, 1995. 32 19 P-1794 Document Number 7000568. Aboriginal Use 20 of TRG Area Identifiers, May 22, 1995. 39 21 P-1795 Document Number 7000642. Removable assets 22 at Camp Ipperwash, June 29, 1995. 45 23 P-1796 Document Number 7000313. Situation Report 24 number 1, June 29-30,1995. 54 25
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1797 Document Number 7000643. Situation Report 4 number 2, June 30-July 02, 1995. 55 5 P-1798 Document Number 7000275. Intelligence 6 Report number 3, July 01, 1995. 57 7 P-1799 Document Number 7000642. Situation Report 8 number 3, July 02-03, 1995. 57 9 P-1800 Document Number 7000499. Intelligence 10 Report number 2, July 02, 1995. 59 11 P-1801 Document Number 7000566. Situation Report 12 number 4, July 03-04, 1995. 61 13 P-1802 Document Number 7000242. Situation Report 14 number 5, July 03, 1995. 63 15 P-1803 Document Number 7000645. Intelligence 16 Report number 5, July 04-05, 1995. 64 17 P-1804 Document Number 7000253. Op Maple 18 Situation Report number 006, July 06, 19 1995. 65 20 P-1805 Document Number 7000644. Intelligence 21 Report number 6, July 04, 1995. 67 22 P-1806 Document Number 7000249. Intelligence 23 Report number 7, July 05, 1995. 70 24 25
101 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1807 Document Number 7000316. Situation 4 Report number 7, July 06-07, 1995. 72 5 P-1808 Document Number 7000647. Public Affairs 6 Log, July 07, 1995. 74 7 P-1809 Document Number 7000353. Situation Report 8 number 8, July 07-08, 1995. 75 9 P-1810 Document Number 7000577. Situation Report 10 number 9, July 08-09, 1995. 76 11 P-1811 Document Number 7000390. Situation Report 12 number 10, July 09-10, 1995. 78 13 P-1812 Document Number 7000403. Situation Report 14 number 11, July 10-11, 1995. 79 15 P-1813 Document Number 7000325. Situation Report 16 number 15, July 15-16, 1995. 92 17 P-1814 Document Number 7000327. Situation Report 18 number 16, July 16-17, 1995. 93 19 P-1815 Document number 7000328. Situation Report 20 number 17, July 17-18, 1995. 95 21 P-1816 Document number 7000329. Situation Report 22 number 18, July 18-19, 1995. 96 23 P-1817 Document number 7000333. Situation Report 24 number 19, July 19-20, 1995. 98 25
111 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1818 Document Number 7000331. Intelligence 4 Report number 9, July 20, 1995. 102 5 P-1819 Document Number 7000337. Situation Report 6 number 21, July 21-23, 1995. 103 7 P-1820 Document Number 7000326. Ipperwash 8 Update, (undated). 104 9 P-1821 Document Number 7000336. Situation Report 10 number 22, July 23-24, 1995. 105 11 P-1822 Document Number 7000341. Situation Report 12 number 25, July 27-28,1995. 112 13 P-1823 Document Number 7000276. Situation Report 14 number 27, July 30, 1995 Detachment London.124 15 P-1824 Document Number 7000575. Summary of 16 Takeover of Base, July 30-31, 1995. 126 17 P-1825 Document Number 7000244. MPUIR, 18 August 03, 1995. 127 19 P-1826 Document Number 7000370. Memo from 20 Captain Smith to Captain Counsel re. 21 Ipperwash, August 25, 1995. 128 22 P-1827 Document Number 7000370. Statements of 23 Sgt. Messenger, Captain Howse, Captain 24 Willis, August 1995. 128 25
121 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1828 Document number 7000387. Letter re. 4 Use of Force Incident by W.D. Smith, 5 September 24, 1995. 130 6 P-1829 Document Number 7000129. Situation 7 Report number 28 with newspaper 8 clippings, August 01-02, 1995. 131 9 P-1830 Document Number 7000243. Situation 10 Report number 29, August 02-03, 1995. 132 11 P-1831 Document Number 7000120. Operation Maple 12 Situation Report number 30, Detachment 13 London, August 04, 1995. 134 14 P-1832 Document Number 7000393. Situation 15 Report number 36, August 10, 1995. 137 16 P-1833 Document Number 7000423. G2 Points: 17 Native Activism and Camp Ipperwash 18 (undated). 138 19 P-1834 Document number 7000657. Situation 20 Report number 37, August 10-11, 1995. 139 21 P-1835 Document Number 7000358. Situation 22 Report number 38, August 13-14, 1995. 140 23 P-1836 Document Number 7000251. Op Summary of 24 September 3-5, 1995. 142 25
131 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1837 Document Number 7000260. Op Summary of 4 Camp Ipperwash, September 05, 1995. 144 5 P-1838 Document Number 7000262. Op Maple 6 Summary of Camp Ipperwash- Smith act 7 as liaison, September 06, 1995. 146 8 P-1839 Document Number 7000377. Op Panda, 9 Smith to help with water/sewage system, 10 September 10, 1995. 154 11 P-1840 Document Number 7000488. Memo re. OPP 12 request for SP to Op Panda, September 10, 13 1995. 155 14 P-1841 Document Number 7000504. Op Panda, Smith 15 does not go to help with water system, 16 September 19, 1995. 156 17 P-1842 Coloured photographs 902, 904, 907, 908, 18 909, July 29, 1995. 254 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
141 --- Upon commencing at 10:06 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin 11 there's a couple of administrative items that I need to 12 deal with. The first is on -- last week we marked as 13 Exhibit P-1781 the apology of Kenneth Deane -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and we've had a 16 request that we add some additional pages from the 17 transcript of the cross-examination of Kenneth Deane with 18 respect to the apology. And I've distributed to My 19 Friends pages 393, 394, 405, 406, 407, and 408 and I 20 would ask that be the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1787, Your Honour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1787 23 24 --- NO. P-1787: Ken Deane apology, pages 393, 394, 405, 25 407 and 408, September 19, 2001.
151 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then as well 3 there's an extract with respect to the compartment -- 4 actually the extract P-1787, the -- excuse me. I think 5 the first two (2) pages may be examination-in-chief and 6 then pages 393 and 394 and then starting at 405 the 7 cross-examination. 8 And the next extract that I wanted to -- 9 we've been requested to mark and I agree with that is an 10 extract with respect to the compart -- 11 compartmentalization that Kenneth Deane testified to at 12 his discipline hearing. And the examination-in-chief is 13 page 390 and 391 and the cross-examination on this issue 14 is pages 420 to page 424 and I would ask that those 15 extracts be the next exhibit? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1788, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1788. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1788: Ken Deane apology, pages 390, 20 391, 420 to 424, September 21 19, 2001. 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And with that, 24 Commissioner, we're ready to call our next witness. This 25 week, as you know, we are calling the three (3) witnesses
161 from the Government of Canada or formerly members of the 2 Government of Canada; two (2) from Department of National 3 Defence and one (1) from Indian Affairs. 4 And here today with respect to the 5 Government of Canada is Mr. Gary Penner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good day, 7 sir. Good day. Welcome. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Ms. Gina Connor 9 from the Department of National Defence. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. Welcome. Okay, I just have a very brief 12 statement that I'd like to make before you call the 13 Witness, Mr. Millar. 14 As we embark on this last grouping of 15 witnesses, those who at the material time were employees 16 of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and the Department 17 of National Defence, I would like to remind counsel that 18 while I expect to comment on the role of the Federal 19 Government in my final report, it's not my desire to 20 interfere with or otherwise jeopardize any ongoing 21 negotiations in relation to outstanding litigation 22 involving any of the parties to this Inquiry relative to 23 the current status of the former Army Camp or the 24 Provincial Park. 25 Similarly, I expect to comment on the
171 surrenders in the 1942 War Measures Act appropriation of 2 former First Nation territory but it is not my intent to 3 comment on the legality of the surrenders or the 1942 War 4 Measures Act Appropriation. 5 I've heard evidence in relation to some of 6 these matters by way of providing context to and 7 enlightenment on the events surrounding the shooting 8 death of Dudley George. I would appreciate if counsel 9 would keep these general guidelines in mind while 10 conducting cross-examinations of these witnesses. 11 I see that Mr. Penner from the Department 12 of Justice and Gina Connor on behalf of the Legal 13 Services Branch, the Department of National Defence are 14 here to represent the interests of Canada in this respect 15 and I would like to take this opportunity to welcome 16 Canada's attendance at this Inquiry. Welcome. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 18 Commissioner. The next witness is William Douglas Smith. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good day, 23 sir. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Smith. 25 MR. WILLIAM SMITH: Good morning.
181 WILLIAM DOUGLAS SMITH, Affirmed 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And before we begin, 4 Commissioner, one of our staff, Assistant Commission 5 Counsel Rebecca Cutler is here today. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Welcome. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know 9 you've been doing a lot of work behind the scenes, but 10 welcome here. 11 12 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Mr. Smith, I understand that you 14 joined the Canadian Forces, the Army, in 1982? 15 A: I did, yes. 16 Q: And you became a Captain in 1985 or 17 1986? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that in May of 1993 you were the 20 Base Security Officer and Commander of the Military 21 Police at Canadian Forces Base Toronto; is that correct? 22 A: I believe so, yes. 23 Q: And in 1993 what role, if any, did 24 you play with respect to Camp Ipperwash? 25 A: In 1993 we were -- we provided
191 military police resources to Camp Ipperwash. 2 Q: And as I understand it the -- 3 starting in 1993 and in 1994 military police officers 4 were seconded to Camp Ipperwash on a six (6) week 5 rotation? 6 A: Give or take, yes. 7 Q: And that these officers came from, in 8 1993 and 1994, from CFB Toronto, Kingston, Petawawa? 9 A: Amongst others, yes. 10 Q: And that the police office -- the 11 Military Police police officers were under the direction 12 of CFB London; is that correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And in 1993 and 1994, had you 15 received any briefings from your superiors with respect 16 to the history of the Army Camp and the occupiers? 17 A: Face to face briefings, we had not -- 18 had not received any but, there were numerous documents 19 floating around about it. 20 Q: Okay. And can you tell me what your 21 understanding -- let me just stop for a second. You were 22 sent to Ipperwash at the end of June 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you became -- at the end of June 25 what was your role?
201 A: I was essentially the -- became the 2 Commander up at Ipperwash. 3 Q: And what was your relation over the 4 summer of 1995, July, August between you and Captain 5 Howse? 6 A: Captain Howse was there prior to my 7 arrival. He was -- and once I got there he became, I 8 believe, more responsible for the administration of the 9 Camp and he left shortly thereafter. 10 Q: So that Captain Howse was the 11 Commanding Officer up to the end of June; is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And once you arrived he became more 15 in charge of administrative items? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you became in charge of? 18 A: The operation and protection of the 19 Camp assets. 20 Q: And as I understand it, there's a -- 21 in the binder in front of you and the -- there's a little 22 yellow book -- little yellow folder. And perhaps I could 23 do it this way. 24 What was your understanding of the policy 25 of the Canadian Forces with respect to the relations
211 between Military personnel and the occupiers when you 2 arrived in June of 1995? 3 A: The policy when I arrived, in fact, 4 hadn't changed from about '93 or whenever it all started, 5 but it was a non-confrontational policy. 6 Q: And when you were sent to Ipperwash 7 in -- Camp Ipperwash in June of -- at the end of June 8 1995, what briefings, if any, were you given with respect 9 to the history of the Camp and the First Nations? 10 A: Well, we were -- we tracked down 11 several documents that described the history of the Band. 12 And we had a pile of documents and situation reports from 13 way back when so we reviewed that. 14 Q: And prior to going to the Camp? 15 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 16 Q: And when did you physically arrive at 17 the Camp? 18 A: I'd have to check -- the exact date? 19 I -- June -- 20 Q: As I understand it was the end of 21 June. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Does that accord -- 24 A: Close enough. 25 Q: Okay. Now, in front of you is a copy
221 of Inquiry Document 7000 -- actually 7000078. And it's a 2 document dated August 25 -- 3 A: Is that tabbed or is it -- 4 Q: Well, it's -- it's in the first 5 document in the -- 6 A: Okay, we're still here. Okay. 7 Q: It should be -- have on it, 7000078 8 do you see in the upper right-hand corner? 9 A: Yes got it. 10 Q: And this is entitled, Security 11 Guidelines For Use of Ipperwash Training Facilities. 12 And the -- are you familiar -- were you 13 familiar with the policy set out in this document? 14 A: Yes, I was familiar with the policy 15 of this -- 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And was this the policy that was in 19 place in 1995? 20 A: Yes, this describes a non- 21 provocative, non-confrontational policy. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: The same -- same policy we had. 24 Q: And I understand that you can't 25 recall today, ten (10) years -- more than (10) years
231 later whether you've seen this document, but you are 2 familiar with its contents? 3 A: I'm familiar with the contents, yes. 4 Q: And I would ask that we mark this the 5 next Exhibit, Commissioner. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1789, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1789: Document Number 7000078. 9 Security Guidelines for Use 10 of Ipperwash TRG Facilities, 11 August 1993. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And just for the benefit of anyone 15 looking at any of these documents in the future, if you 16 look at the first line after "unclassified" there's a 17 line that starts, zero one zero four (0104) then twenty- 18 five (25) and I think it's eighteen thirty zed (1830Z) 19 August 23. 20 Do you see that? 21 A: That's daytime group, yes. 22 Q: And the twenty-five (25) -- the first 23 two (2) numbers represent the date and then the next four 24 (4) numbers represent the time in Zulu; that's Greenwich 25 Mean Time?
241 A: Greenwich time, correct. 2 Q: And then the month and the year? 3 A: You must have been in the Military. 4 Q: The -- so that's -- on all of these 5 documents that's how -- 6 A: They're all the same, yes. 7 Q: They're all the same. Now, the next 8 document that's in front of you is a Document 7000093, 9 it's dated November 25th, 1994, and it relates to the 10 recoverable assets at the Military Base and the role of 11 the Military Police at Camp Ipperwash. 12 And were you familiar with this document 13 back in 1994? 14 A: Again familiar with the concept. Do 15 I -- do I actually remember seeing this piece of paper, 16 no. 17 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 18 exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1790, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1790: Document Number 7000093. Op 22 Maple Operation Order 1/94, 23 November 29, 1994. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
251 Q: Then the next document in that series 2 of documents is a letter. It's Inquiry Document 7000117 3 and it's dated May 5th, 1995. The top letter is a letter 4 from Major Griffin -- Giffen, excuse me, G-I-F-F-I-N, and 5 then attached to it is a memorandum brief on OP Maple 6 orders and direction. 7 And are you familiar with the contents of 8 this document? 9 A: The contents, yes. 10 Q: And this relates to the ongoing 11 situation at Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I would ask that that this 14 document be the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1791, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1791: Document Number 7000117. 18 Brief for Commander Op Maple 19 orders and direction, May 05, 20 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then closer in time there's a 24 document 7000106, it's dated June 29th, 1995, and its 25 subject is OP Maple, LFCA Operation Order 01/'95.
261 And as I understand it LFCA means Land 2 Forces Canada? 3 A: Central area. 4 Q: Central area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And this is another document relating 7 to the Camp Ipperwash. And do you recall seeing this 8 document, Mr. Smith, or are you familiar with its 9 contents? 10 A: I'm familiar with the contents. And 11 do I remember this specific piece of paper? No. 12 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 13 exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: The document number 15 again, Mr. Millar? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 7000106. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1792, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1792: Document Number 7000106. Op 24 Maple LFCA operation order 25 01/'95, June 1995.
271 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And if we could just stop for a 4 moment and take a look at P-1792. The information that's 5 provided indicates if you look at the bottom of page 1: 6 "Since a new SBG leader was elected on 7 May 25 or 25 May, '95 there has been a 8 series of harassment incidents which 9 have become increasingly violent in 10 nature. This aggressive behaviour has 11 been directed at DND personnel in the 12 training and built-up areas of the Camp 13 and at civilians who were legally on 14 the beach. These incidents, a threat 15 to forcibly remove DND personnel from 16 the Camp and the difficulties in 17 maintaining law and order is directed 18 at refs 'A' and 'B' indicate that the 19 irresponsible elements of the SPG are 20 no longer deterred by the current 21 military police presence. As a result 22 of an incident on 25 June, '95 all 23 patrols in the training area have been 24 suspended until further notice. The 25 KPSPB may also be expected to become
281 more active if court does not issue an 2 injunction order to deny the 3 environmental assessment contractor 4 access to Camp Ipperwash." 5 And were you -- what had you been told 6 when you were sent at the end of June, Mr. Smith, as to 7 the situation at Camp Ipperwash? 8 A: Well, I think this describes it quite 9 well. The -- the tensions and the confrontations had 10 increased somewhat over the last little while and so they 11 were increasing the manning of military police. And it 12 was -- 13 Q: I can't hear you. Could you just 14 pull that a little bit closer to you. You can bring the 15 whole thing. 16 A: So they increased the -- the number 17 of -- they were increasing the number of military police 18 on the Base. 19 Q: And the -- 20 A: And actually I can see in here, if we 21 go back to one of your earlier questions, where I was -- 22 my official title was the Tactical Commander. 23 Q: And where do you see that, sir? 24 A: I just read that a second ago. It 25 was --
291 Q: I believe if you look at page 4 of 2 the document, Item Number 3.81(I) or one (1) -- 3. -- 3 excuse me, B1(II) is: 4 "Provide B security O as Tac Commander 5 of security forces for Camp Ipperwash 6 effective immediately." 7 A: There, and that would be me. 8 Q: And that was you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And at this point in time at the end 11 of June, if you look down farther on page 4 at 3.B(2)(I) 12 it reads: 13 "Coordinate and remove all, including 14 Cadet recoverable assets from Camp 15 Ipperwash by 17 July, '95." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when you arrived at the end of 18 June the plan was to have everything out by the end -- by 19 July 17th? 20 A: That was the initial plan. Yes. 21 Q: And by "recoverable assets"; I take 22 it those were assets that could be easily moved? 23 A: Yes. Everything short of plant 24 infrastructure; vehicles, equipments, office supplies, 25 furniture, that type of thing.
301 Q: And it was my understanding that 2 since 1993 there was no ammunition or weapons kept at 3 Camp Ipperwash other than perhaps for the Military 4 Police? 5 A: That would be true. Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And then if you turn to page 5 7 of Exhibit P-1792, the -- at 3.B(2)(IV): 8 "Continue to monitor on an as required 9 basis Native activities on the Camp but 10 do no patrol the training area. AVGP 11 are not authorized for employment at 12 Camp Ipperwash. Ensure effective 13 signing and fencing of Camp perimeter 14 and protect DND property in the BUA..." 15 And I take it that means built-up area? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: "... from theft and vandalism." And 18 can you assist me; what is A -- in the second line of 19 that paragraph, what is AVGP? 20 A: Armoured Vehicle, General Purpose. 21 Could be referring to an MM13 track carrier or a Grizzly 22 at the time. 23 Q: Okay. And then 3.B: 24 "Continue to publicize that the beach 25 is out of bounds to the public and
311 discreetly patrol the beach to warn the 2 public." 3 And 3.B(2)(VI): 4 "Maintain MP on call capability during 5 silent hours during the week and rapid 6 response capability on a twenty-four 7 (24) hour basis during the weekend 8 periods." 9 And I take it that, was that the situation 10 when you arrived at the end of June? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what were the silent hours? What 13 hours were -- is that night time or can you recall today? 14 A: The silent hours would be outside of 15 normal working hours and weekends. 16 Q: Okay. And then at Tab 6, at the 3.C, 17 paragraph 4 -- excuse me, at page 6 of Exhibit P-1792, 18 see I've already done what I told you that you had to be 19 careful of Mr. Smith. 20 At page 6 of P-1792, if you look at 21 3.C(3): 22 "Int -- al Int from CF and OPP sources 23 to be passed directly to the Tac 24 Commander of the security force." 25 And I take it that's referring to
321 intelligence would go through you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then 3.C(4), public affairs: 4 "Overall strategy of non-confrontation 5 is extended to PAFF. PAFF will 6 continue to be managed in reactive 7 manner." 8 Can you tell us what PAFF is? 9 A: Public Affairs. 10 Q: Public Affairs. And then the next 11 document is in -- in that yellow folder should be Inquiry 12 Document 7000640. And it's dated June 30th, 1995 and 13 it's entitled, Op Maple Law Enforcement Guidelines. 14 And were you familiar with this document, 15 Mr. Smith? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And this document, again if you look 18 at -- I would ask that this before I -- be the next 19 Exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1793, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1793: Document Number 7000640. Op 23 Maple Law Enforcement 24 Guidelines, July 04, 1995. 25
331 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And this, at page 2, paragraph 1, 3 talks about the situation being "increased militancy and 4 intensity of criminal acts have taken place", and that's 5 what we just reviewed briefly in the other document. 6 And that was your understanding? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that: 9 "The Canadian -- CF is now in a 10 custodial role, pending the removal of 11 the removable assets, completion of the 12 environmental assessment and the 13 eventual return of the Camp to the 14 legitimate Native group. As discussed 15 at Refs 'B' and 'C', the two (2) 16 paramount concerns are now to avoid 17 escalation of tension and to provide 18 safety for the general public as well 19 as the DND/CF personnel." 20 And that was your understanding? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then at page -- the top of page 23 3, it's paragraph 3.A: 24 "MP's will conduct law enforcement 25 operations at Camp Ipperwash in a
341 discreet and non-provocative manner. 2 It is recognized that certain MP 3 duties, i.e. patrol and arrest are 4 inherently confrontational, however the 5 degree of confrontation must be 6 minimized, while still permitting MP to 7 perform effectively their duties as 8 police officers. The key 9 responsibility is to safeguard life and 10 limb. Although assets are being 11 removed from the Camp, the protection 12 of these assets does not warrant unduly 13 provocative law enforcement action that 14 will escalate tensions. Criminal acts 15 that threaten life and limb will not be 16 tolerated and alleged perpetrators will 17 be arrested and turned over to the OPP. 18 For offences that do not threaten the 19 life or safety of the public or DND/CF 20 Personnel MP will monitor the 21 situation, preserve property and report 22 the matter to the OPP. To avoid undue 23 escalation the following guidelines 24 will apply..." 25 And then there's a number of specific
351 guidelines. 2 "The enforcement of Refs 'G' and 'H' 3 against trespassers associated with 4 Native groups and for criminal law code 5 offences directly related to entry i.e. 6 destruction and removal of camp 7 perimeter signs, fences, is not 8 authorized." 9 And I take it that -- or the -- that 10 that's referring to anything relating to the entry of the 11 occupiers onto the Camp and the destruction of signs? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So that at this point in time, at the 14 end of June that was not to be prosecuted? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And then at the top of page 4 the 17 3.A, paragraph 2: 18 "In order to maintain law and order to 19 protect persons, any person involved 20 with the occupation of Camp Ipperwash 21 may be arrested and charged IAW..." 22 Do you know what that means? 23 A: In accordance with. 24 Q: "...law for serious offences which 25 threaten the safety and security of the
361 public or DND/CF personnel." 2 And was that your understanding of the 3 policy? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And 3.A(3): 6 "Law enforcement action, i.e. arrest 7 and charge of any person involved with 8 the occupation of Camp Ipperwash, i.e. 9 SPG 10 members or associated individuals for 11 minor offences will not be carried out 12 if the offences are committed a) in the 13 area currently occupied by the SPG or 14 b) where there is no immediate threat 15 to the health, safety, discipline, and 16 security of DND/CF personnel and the 17 public." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that was your understanding of 20 the policy? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And "SPG" refers to Stoney Point 23 Group? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And paragraph 3.A(4):
371 "All offences will be reported and to 2 the extent possible without provocation 3 of SPG 4 members investigated in accordance with 5 law and LFCA SOP's." 6 And I take it that's Standing Operating 7 Procedures? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: "Maximum use of video photography in 10 respect of any offence activity is to 11 be taken." 12 And was that the policy as you understood 13 it? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And 3.B, Crimes Against Persons: 16 "Where there is an immediate threat to 17 the lives or safety of the public or 18 DND/CF personnel and it's not possible 19 to withdraw from the threat MP will 20 take action to preserve safety, arrest 21 the alleged perpetrators, and turn them 22 over to the OPP. Arrests should be 23 effected where they may be successfully 24 accomplished without undue risk to the 25 MP or the public. When necessary OPP
381 assistance should be obtained to effect 2 the arrest." 3 And was that the policy as you understood 4 it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then there's a section with 7 respect to non -- offences against property and it 8 provides two (2) items with respect to property. And do 9 those, 3.C(1) and 3.C(2), accurately reflect the policy 10 with -- as you understood it at the end of June? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then 3.D, Patrolling: 13 "Patrolling will be restricted to the 14 built-up area of the Camp and the 15 exterior perimeter to avoid unnecessary 16 confrontation. Areas occupied by the 17 SPG 18 will not be patrolled." 19 And was that your understanding? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And by the "exterior perimeter," what 22 did you understand that to mean back at the -- the 23 beginning of July 1995? 24 A: The fence line. 25 Q: The fence line?
391 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Would -- and... 3 A: Yeah, there you go. 4 Q: And on the screen is a copy of a 5 document 7000568 -- 7000568, Commissioner, and this is a 6 document dated May 22nd, 1995, that I'll be asking 7 Captain Howse about but you should have it. Just inside 8 your binder there should be a copy of this document and 9 it sets out the -- shows a copy of the Army Camp and 10 Provincial Park. 11 This is the same as our Exhibit P-40 but 12 marked on it are the locations according to Captain House 13 of where different people, different groups were leave -- 14 living and that's A, B, C. And there's a description at 15 the last two (2) pages. 16 And I would ask that this document 7000568 17 be marked the next exhibit and I'm going to be speaking 18 to Captain Howse about it? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1794, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1794: Document Number 7000568. 22 Aboriginal Use of TRG Area 23 Identifiers, May 22, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
401 Q: But using the map on P-1794 the fence 2 -- the fence line we can see on the west side ran 3 parallel to Army Camp Road; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And if the lake is north, on the 6 south side it ran along Highway 21? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And then north along Outer Drive? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then there was a road, Matheson 11 Drive, that ran east from Army Camp Road to the south of 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park and then north along the 13 eastern boundary of the Provincial Park up to Lake Huron; 14 is that correct? 15 A: True. Yes. 16 Q: And would the patrols -- we know that 17 in the former Camp Ipperwash there are a number of 18 interior roads that run throughout the area. In July of 19 1995, after you arrived, the patrol -- the perimeter 20 patrols were they done on the internal roads or on 21 external roads? 22 A: Perimeter patrols were done 23 externally. 24 Q: Externally. 25 A: Internal patrols were done strictly
411 through the built-up area. 2 Q: So that after you arrived at the end 3 of June 1995 in accordance with the policy, Exhibit P- 4 1793, exterior patrols were on the outside of the fence 5 on the roads surrounding the Army Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then in -- in the interior, 8 patrols were restricted to the built-up area in the 9 southwest corner of the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: At the intersection of -- near the 12 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And if I could ask you to take a look 15 again at P-1793, page 6, paragraph 3.E, ROE/LOF: 16 "In performance of their duties MP are 17 authorized to use reasonable and 18 proportional force up to but not 19 including deadly force in accordance 20 with the LOF given at reference GJ." 21 LOF is what? 22 A: Rules of engagement -- I can't 23 remember right now. I don't know. 24 Q: Okay. Presumably it's a -- it's one 25 of the earlier orders.
421 "Use of force that is intended or is 2 likely to cause death or grievous 3 bodily harm is not justified unless MP 4 believe on reasonable grounds that it 5 is necessary for the purpose of 6 preserving MP or anyone under their 7 protection from death or grievous 8 bodily harm. MP at all times retain 9 right of self-defence. In the event of 10 confrontation initiated by the SPG, 11 MP's should withdraw if possible to 12 take such actions as are necessary to 13 preserve their own safety and safety of 14 others and to de-escalate the 15 situation." 16 And was that your understanding of the use 17 of force and -- when you arrived in June of 1995? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: Now... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: As I -- when you arrived at the end 24 of June the -- how did -- what did you see your role as? 25 How would you describe your role?
431 A: I would have described my role as -- 2 as trying to maintain a degree of calm in what seemed to 3 be a fairly confrontational situation and, sort of, 4 peacefully hand over the Base to the -- to the Native 5 group. 6 Q: And after you arrived at Ipperwash 7 did you establish a liaison with the OPP? 8 A: I did. 9 Q: And who, in particular, if anyone, 10 did you liaise? 11 A: Started with the -- the local OPP at 12 the Grand -- Grand Bend. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: And we just carried on from there. 15 Q: And the officer -- Detachment 16 Commander in Grand Bend in -- 17 A: That was -- 18 Q: -- 1995 was Sergeant Bouwman? 19 A: Charlie Bouwman, yeah. 20 Q: And then in the book in front of you 21 -- let me step back, when you arrived at Ipperwash and 22 became the Tactical Commander; is that the proper name? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: The -- who did you report to, sir? 25 A: I reported to the Det Commander of
441 London. 2 Q: And so -- 3 A: It was -- 4 Q: The name isn't particularly 5 important, but how did you describe the person in London? 6 The Detachment Commander? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. So I think you said Det 9 Commander? 10 A: Sorry. 11 Q: And that means Detachment Commander? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And in the black book 14 that's in front of you the -- there's another copy at Tab 15 1, if you look at -- it's Inquiry Document 7000642. And 16 this is dated June 30th, 1995 and this is a direction 17 with respect to the removal of assets by July 17th, 1995. 18 But, this document's outlining some difficulties with 19 removing the assets by July 17th, 1995. 20 And were you familiar with this document 21 back at the end of June, 1995, sir? 22 A: Again, I'd be familiar with the 23 content. I don't remember the specific pieces of paper. 24 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 25 next Exhibit?
451 THE REGISTRAR: P-1795 Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1795: Document Number 7000642. 4 Removable assets at Camp 5 Ipperwash, June 29, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And can you tell us, Mr. Smith, what 9 was your understanding of Operation Maple; what it was? 10 A: Well, Maple was described -- the 11 generic term for the activities that were going on at 12 Camp Ipperwash. 13 Q: And was there an operational plan 14 that was given the name Operation Maple, that was being 15 executed as one might think of an operational plan, or 16 was it more a -- simply a description of what was taking 17 place at Camp Ipperwash? 18 A: It was more of a description of what 19 was taking place and in fact, for administrative 20 purposes, I believe, it established the billing or 21 costing of all resources, to go -- to go against that 22 particular financial code. 23 Q: So that it became an -- it was an 24 administrative -- among other things, it was a name used 25 for administrative purposes?
461 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- we see among the documents 3 that are in front of you, a number of documents. One (1) 4 is called he Situation Report and we'll go to those. 5 There's another called an Intelligence Report and then 6 there's another called, Major Police Unusual Encounter 7 Report. 8 A: Military Police Unusual Incident 9 Report. 10 Q: Okay. And can you tell us just 11 briefly what the differences between these reports were, 12 back in 1995, if you recall sir? 13 A: Situational reports are generated as 14 part of a standard operating procedures. When you go on 15 any particular operation, it doesn't matter where, the 16 Commander will generate situation reports on a recurrent 17 basis, usually every 24 hours. 18 Q: And where do those go, sir? 19 A: They will go up through the chain of 20 command then to parties that need to know. 21 Q: And so in your case, they would go at 22 least you would -- to London. 23 Did you know where they went after London? 24 A: In my case they would go to the -- to 25 the Commanders of London, Toronto and LFCA.
471 Q: And LFCA is Land Forces -- 2 A: Forces Central Area. 3 Q: -- Central Area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And that Land Forces Central 6 Area was above the -- 7 A: Those other two (2). 8 Q: -- Toronto, Kingston, Petawawa? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. That was the overall command - 11 - name given to the command for the central area of 12 Canada? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Okay. And so the situation report 15 was done on a daily basis or almost daily basis. And the 16 intelligence report? 17 A: The intelligence reports are another 18 standard operating procedure. They are reports that are 19 generated with a focus on intelligence and they are 20 generated and transmitted on an as needed basis. 21 Q: Okay. And then the last document? 22 A: MPUIR? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: The Military Police and Usual 25 Incident Report is another one generated specifically for
481 military police, and that is generated on as need basis 2 whenever some type of unusual event occurs that involves 3 military police resources. 4 Q: Okay. And when you arrived in June 5 of 1995, the built-up area, was it surrounded by a fence? 6 A: On two (2) sides. 7 Q: On two (2) sides. On the side -- 8 which two (2) sides? 9 A: Highway 21. If you flip that map up 10 there you'll see the -- so down Highway -- Highway 21 and 11 down Army Camp Road, those two (2) sides; those two (2) 12 corners. 13 Q: And was there a fence at -- there's a 14 road that runs parallel to Army Camp Road, north/south on 15 the inside of the -- the -- of the former Army Camp, and 16 at the south end of that road there was a fence. Was 17 that fence there back in 1995? 18 A: No. 19 Q: I think we're -- I think you may be 20 wrong about that. 21 A: Was it? Oh okay. 22 Q: We'll come to that in a moment. 23 A: No. 24 Q: And it's by what appeared to be a 25 storage area?
491 A: Do you have a laser pointer? Where 2 are you... 3 Q: Excuse me. What I'm referring to is 4 just at the edge of the built-up area at the end of the 5 road running north and south from -- on the inside of -- 6 A: Okay. So that's the -- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- fence down Army Camp Road there? 9 Q: There's a fence down Army Camp Road. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: But there's a fence just before the - 12 - at the end of the road by the built-up area. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: You can't -- I'll come to something 15 that'll help. 16 A: Good enough. 17 Q: Now, at Tab 2 is a Situation Report 18 Number 1 and it's June 29th to June 30th, 1995 and this 19 is a first -- the first situation report authored by you? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: And I take it that this -- we could 22 place your arrival at the Camp Ipperwash on or about June 23 29th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Because you -- the -- the next day,
501 June 30th, you filed your first incident report? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And when you arrived on that day this 4 reports the -- that there had been a -- an allegation 5 that military police had slashed tires of one (1) of the 6 occupiers' vehicles; is that correct? 7 A: Where does it say that? 8 Q: Native elements 1(a)? This is at Tab 9 2? 10 A: Yes. Okay. I'm with you. 11 Q: And this is simply reporting on what 12 happened on June 29th and June 30th during the currency 13 of this report? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how were these -- was there a 16 standard procedure that you followed? If we use this 17 report, it appears to have been divided up into four (4) 18 parts: paragraph 1 - Native Elements, paragraph 2 - Own 19 Situation, paragraph 3 - Administration, and paragraph 4 20 - General. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was there any -- how did you come 23 up with -- with these four (4) headings or was it part of 24 a standard -- 25 A: That's a standard --
511 Q: -- standard format? 2 A: -- standard format. 3 Q: So that the Native elements would be 4 referring to, in another situation, sort of the general - 5 - how did you come up with Native elements as paragraph 6 1? 7 A: I'm not following what you're asking. 8 Q: If it's a standard form, does 9 paragraph 1 refer to the general vicinity in which you're 10 operating? Does that -- 11 A: Paragraph 1 of -- of these reports 12 will refer to the general situation and then you just 13 tailor the heading to whatever situation you're in. 14 Q: And that's what I was getting at. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And at this point in time the -- as 17 of June 29th or June 30th it -- if you go to page 2, 18 paragraph 2(c): 19 "Effective June 16:00 hours Sergeant 20 Barrow ..." 21 It talks about what they're going to do 22 but: 23 "Effective 19:00 hours high visibility 24 and very frequent MP patrols, vehicle 25 and foot began in the built-up area,
521 BUA. Pepper spray issued to all MP 2 personnel, training to use it. Will 3 conduct training for those as yet 4 unqualified." 5 Then: 6 "Effective 29 June, lounge bar closed. 7 No alcohol to be served in camp until 8 further notice. Effective 19:00 hours 9 MP personnel on, confined to camp 10 policy for duration of long weekend." 11 And then (d): 12 "Moral of all ranks is good." 13 This simply refers to pepper spraying -- 14 pepper spray having been issued? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then -- and item number three, 17 Administration, refers to a ramming incident and I 18 believe that incident took place prior to your arrival? 19 A: Just prior or just as I was getting 20 there. 21 Q: And that was with respect to a 22 military vehicle being rammed by what? 23 A: That was -- that one, I think, was by 24 a bus. 25 Q: Okay. And then the next item (B):
531 "Require the following: cultural 2 awareness brief training to focus on 3 local Native customs, traditions, 4 methods of negotiation, et cetera. 5 This is to be given to Tactical 6 Commander I/C full ops soonest." 7 And what did that refer to, sir? 8 A: I decided that we needed to -- to 9 help educate everybody on what we were doing and what we 10 were -- the situation that we were in. It would be wise 11 to do this -- some type of cultural awareness training, 12 so we were working to -- to set that up and get it 13 running. 14 Q: And this was something that -- this 15 was your idea? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And we'll get to it; there was 18 cultural training in a couple of weeks. 19 And then there's a request for soft body 20 armour; is that correct? 21 A: True. 22 Q: And was that provided? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I would ask that this be, Inquiry 25 Document 7000313 dated June 30th, 1995, be marked as the
541 next exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1796, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1796: Document Number 7000313. 5 Situation Report number 1, 6 June 29-30, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And I'm simply going to refer to some 10 of these without going into them, but at Tab 2 is Inquiry 11 Document 7000643, it's situation report number two, July 12 2nd, 1995. Have I read that correctly? It's for the 13 period -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Tab 3, excuse me. June 30th, 1995 to 18 July 2nd, 1995, tab 3. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that's correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And refers to, in paragraph 1, that: 23 "The occupiers continue congregating on 24 the military beach in the area of Camp 25 N. OPP have been unsuccessful in
551 attempting to patrol the beach and 2 Native elements are in complete control 3 of the beach. There has been several 4 short altercations between civilians 5 and Natives on the beach, none reported 6 as extremely violent. And in the area 7 of Camp N the following equipment has 8 been observed: a bus, one (1) tractor 9 and two (2) large trailers, an unknown 10 number of cars and vans." 11 And Camp N was, as we see on the map, that 12 forms part of Exhibit P -- 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1794. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: 1794. Camp N's up along Lake Huron 17 at the north end of the Camp? It appears to be. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Now, I would ask that this be 20 marked the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1797, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1797: Document Number 7000643. 24 Situation Report number 2, 25 June 30-July 02, 1995.
561 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And at Tab 4 is Inquiry document 4 7000275 and this is intelligence report 003. And this 5 refers to a telephone conversation, among other things, 6 between you and Chief Tom Bressette of the Kettle and 7 Stoney Point First Nation? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you -- what was the purpose 10 of your call to Chief Bressette? 11 A: That was part of my ongoing liaison 12 plan. I needed to establish -- I was trying to establish 13 contact with all the different parties involved. 14 Q: And the -- and among those you spoke 15 to Chief Bressette? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were invited to attend a Band 18 Council meeting on July 3rd? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And we'll get to that in a moment. 21 And you did it because you did attend the meeting; is 22 that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. I would ask that this be 25 marked the next Exhibit?
571 THE REGISTRAR: P-1798, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1798: Document Number 7000275. 4 Intelligence Report number 3, 5 July 01, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And then at Tab 5 is situation report 9 3. And this is Inquiry document 7000642 and this is a 10 report prepared by you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 13 Exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1799, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1799: Document Number 7000642. 17 Situation Report number 3, 18 July 02-03, 1995. 19 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And at the -- page 2, item 7, in 23 paragraph 7: 24 "The size of the MP force necessary to 25 main security within the BUA, built-up
581 area has been addressed. All parties 2 agree that the reduction of Native 3 Aty..." 4 Do you know what that refers to? 5 A: Activity. 6 Q: "...is a direct result of increased 7 military strength and activity. All 8 agree that reduction of military 9 strength will in turn lead to an 10 increase in Native activity. All agree 11 that increased Native activity will 12 result in confrontation." 13 So that at this point in time there had 14 been an increase in the number of Military Police 15 Officers on the Army Camp? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you attributed the decrease in 18 activity to that increase in the number of officers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in item 8, paragraph 8: 21 "Outstanding issues - A number of 22 issues for SP of Op Maple..." 23 SP, what would that refer to? 24 A: Support. 25 Q: "...operation remain outstanding, the
591 first of which is confirmation of the 2 final withdrawal date for OP Maple. It 3 is essential that the date be 4 determined ASAP. A minimum four (4) 5 days warning will be required to allow 6 for the removal of essential OP assets. 7 This is also contingent upon receipt of 8 administrative resources required at 9 Ref G." 10 So at this point in time you're seeking 11 direction as to when the withdrawal will take place? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And at the next Tab -- Tab 6, this is 14 an intelligence report 004, Inquiry document 7000499. 15 And I believe this was authored by you as well, if you 16 look at page 2? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I would ask that this be the 19 next Exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1800 Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1800: Document Number 7000499. 23 Intelligence Report number 2, 24 July 02, 1995. 25
601 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And this reports on your attendance 3 at the OPP Detachment in Forest with respect to what you 4 understood to be the surrender and arrest of Glenn 5 George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that didn't happen? 8 A: It did not. 9 Q: And on item 2, you're advised on July 10 2nd that the OPP headquarters -- District Headquarters 11 was advised by OPP Detachment Grand Bend that they had 12 been unable to patrol the military -- each area by ATV. 13 And was that your understanding? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And with respect to the Military 16 Police, the patrols continued in the built-up area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Then at Tab 7, Inquiry Document 19 7000566, it's the situation Report Number 4 for the 20 period July 3rd and 4th. 21 And this was a report prepared by you? 22 A: It's -- yeah, probably was. It's 23 signed off by somebody else but my name's on the bottom. 24 Q: It's actually -- it appears to be 25 perhaps Howse for W.D. Smith?
611 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 3 exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1801, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1801: Document Number 7000566. 7 Situation Report number 4, 8 July 03-04, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And -- and Item Number 1 under 12 "Native Elements:" 13 "1. Native activity and proximity to 14 the built-up area has been as follows: 15 a) Increase frequency of vehicle..." 16 "Recce" must mean reconnaissance? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: "...and all three (3) access points 19 to the built-up area. No change to 20 method of reconnaissance. [and] 21 b) Continued observation of the built- 22 up area. 23 2. Native activity increasing in areas 24 outside of the built-up area. OPP 25 report the following incidents."
621 And then: 2 "1. One (1) incident of sexual assault 3 conducted by Native on the military 4 beach. Increased reckless dangerous 5 driving in a Provincial Park. [and] 6 2. More incidents of civilians being 7 thrown off the military beach by Native 8 elements and in one (1) case a civilian 9 boat was cut adrift from its mooring." 10 Now, as I understand that, the blacked out 11 part reads: 12 "In both these cases citizens reported 13 that they intended to complain to the 14 respective MPP." 15 And then in Item Number 4 there was some 16 highlighting. This is highlighting, Commissioner, that's 17 -- and Ms. Vella has written in, I think, what the -- the 18 words are: 19 "OPP confirm [in paragraph 4] that 20 Native strength will probably remain 21 high as long as Glenn George is at 22 large in the training area. OPP have - 23 - have no immediate plans to move in 24 and arrest Glenn George or attempt to 25 control the beach."
631 Then if you could turn to page -- Tab 8. 2 And this is Inquiry Document 7000242 and it's an 3 Intelligence Report Number 5 dated as, I believe, July 1, 4 1995. 5 Have I read that correctly? 6 A: July 1st, yeah. 7 Q: Although it must -- if you look at 8 the upper right-hand corner it's: 9 "Tac Command Camp Ipperwash 03 18:30 10 Zulu July/'95." 11 The "03" is written in. Do you see that 12 in the right-hand corner? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So because this refers to things 15 happening on July 2nd and July 3rd, I take it it's 16 properly dated July as someone's corrected? 17 A: It would be a fair assumption. 18 Q: I would as that this be marked the 19 next exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1802, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1802: Document Number 7000242. 23 Situation Report number 5, 24 July 03, 1995. 25
641 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And this refers to activity in the 3 training area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the training area is the area 6 referred -- you refer in the training area the area along 7 Highway 21; is that correct? 8 A: Yeah, fundamentally everything 9 outside the built-up area. 10 Q: Fundamentally everything outside the 11 built-up area. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then at the next tab, Tab 9, is 14 Situation Report Number 5. And again, is that a 15 situation report prepared by you? It's Inquiry Document 16 7000645. 17 A: Yes. Okay. 18 Q: I would ask that this be marked the 19 next exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1803, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT P-1803: Document Number 7000645. 23 Intelligence Report number 5, 24 July 04-05, 1995. 25
651 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then there's a loose document in the 3 inside of your black binder, on the inside cover, it's 4 Inquiry Document 7000253 and it's a letter -- there's a 5 covering letter from Captain Howse to a number of people. 6 And then attached to it is Operation Maple, Situation 7 Report Number 6; that, on page -- the last page, appears 8 to have been signed by you. 9 A: Okay. Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And it's Inquiry Document 7000253 and 11 I would ask that this be the next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1804, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1804: Document Number 7000253. Op 15 Maple Situation Report number 16 006, July 06, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Now, the covering letter appears to 20 list four (4) recipients, at least, of this particular 21 situation report: 22 "Land Forces CA" 23 That's Land Forces Central Area 24 Headquarters; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
661 Q: And then, as you've told us before: 2 "CFB Toronto." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: "CFB Detach London." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And: 7 "CD SIU Toronto." 8 I take it that's -- what's that refer? 9 A: Special Investigation Unit in 10 Toronto. 11 Q: And that relates to military special 12 investigation unit? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And this is reporting on the events, 15 July 5th to July 6th, 1995? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And a news conference -- news reports 18 -- news conference held by Glenn George, among other 19 things? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Then at Tab 10 there's Intelligence 22 Report 006. It's Inquiry Document 7000 -- 7 million, 23 excuse me, 664. And, again, this is a report authorized 24 by -- authored by you. 25 A: True.
671 Q: And the -- I would ask that this be 2 marked the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1805, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1805: Document Number 7000644. 6 Intelligence Report number 6, 7 July 04, 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And this reports on your meeting with 11 Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation Council; is that 12 correct? 13 A: True. 14 Q: And the -- the last page of this 15 document is a statement, appears to be from Chief Tom 16 Bressette. 17 Did you receive the document, the very 18 last page -- if you go to the very last page, at or about 19 -- at your meeting? 20 A: No, I haven't seen this before. 21 Q: You haven't seen that before? 22 A: No. 23 Q: So that in so far as your situation 24 report is concerned the -- would it consist of the first 25 four (4) pages or three (3) pages? The fourth page is a
681 little map. 2 A: My report would be the first four (4) 3 pages including the map. 4 Q: Four (4), Including the map? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you attended the meeting with 7 John Taylor? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And he was the Master Warrant 10 Officer? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And he was a military police officer 13 as well? 14 A: No, he was not. 15 Q: No. What was his role? 16 A: He was the -- the Senior NCO -- the 17 Acting Senior NCO on the Base, primarily responsible for 18 administration. 19 Q: Oh, I see. Thank you. And can you 20 tell the Commissioner, do you -- what do you recall of 21 the meeting with -- at Kettle and Stoney Point First 22 Nations, at the Council? 23 A: At that council meeting? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: So the purpose of going to that
691 council meeting was to introduce myself to the -- to the 2 Band and the leadership of the Band to explain what we 3 were -- or what I was trying to accomplish. 4 And to see if we could mutually come up 5 with some kind of a solution to the -- to the problem. 6 Q: And when you say to mutually come up 7 with a solution to the problem, what were you -- how -- 8 what was the problem as you defined it? 9 A: The -- well, the problem -- the 10 primary problem was the -- was the violence -- or the 11 potential for violence on the Base itself. 12 Q: And what role, if any, did you see 13 the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nations Council have 14 with respect to that problem? 15 A: Well, as the elected representatives 16 for the Band, I felt that you know, they would have 17 within their purview the ability to exert some control 18 over -- over the members of their -- of their Band. 19 Q: And were you -- what if anything were 20 you told by the Council as to their ability to control 21 the members at the Army Camp? 22 A: That essentially they had no control 23 over them. 24 Q: And as a result of the meeting, was 25 there any decisions made?
701 A: I think we talked -- also talked 2 about the upcoming cross-cultural awareness work. The 3 decisions were -- I don't think they had records of 4 decisions actually published, but I think the decisions 5 were just to work -- try to work together as much as we 6 could to resolve it. 7 Q: And if I could ask you to please turn 8 to Tab 11, Inquiry Document 7000249, this is Intelligence 9 Report 0007. It's dated July 4th, 1995. 10 And is this a document authored by you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 13 the next Exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1806 Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1806: Document Number 7000249. 17 Intelligence Report number 7, 18 July 05, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And this refers to discussions of, 22 among other things, with the OPP in Grand Bend? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the -- in paragraph 2, you report 25 on the positive working relationship you had established
711 with the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation Council? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then the -- and you make a 4 comment in paragraph 6 on page 2, under (c): 5 "No change to patrol policy, all groups 6 seem to be in a holding pattern to see 7 [quote] 'who will blink first' [close 8 quote]. Initiating training/practice 9 program for MP persons -- personnel to 10 cover such topics as high risk vehicle 11 stops, high risk arrest, judgmental use 12 of force, powers of arrest, et cetera." 13 Firstly, have I read that correctly? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what were you referring to when 16 you used the phrase, "who will blink first"? 17 A: Well, at that point it was a -- I 18 guess we'd achieved a bit of an uneasy calm and we were 19 just waiting to see how things would move along from 20 there. 21 Q: And the training that's referred to 22 in this paragraph 6(c), the initiating training practice 23 program, were you increasing the training for the MP's of 24 the Army Camp? 25 A: Yes, I was. This was done as part of
721 the contingency planning in the event that things did get 2 -- did get a little bit more violent. I thought it would 3 be prudent to make sure that everyone was up to speed and 4 able to do these types of things. 5 Q: And by this time, the cultural aware 6 --awareness training had been scheduled for July 12th and 7 13th, 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you were working with that with 10 CFB Borden? 11 A: They were one (1) of the groups. The 12 -- one (1) of the guys was through CFB Borden, yes. 13 Q: And at Tab 12, there's a situation 14 report. It's Inquiry Document 7000316 and it's for the 15 period July 6 to 7. And this is a report that indicates 16 has been prepared by you. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 19 the next Exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1807 Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1807: Document Number 7000316. 23 Situation Report number 7, 24 July 06-07, 1995. 25
731 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And it reports on events during the 3 period July 6 to 7; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then at Tab 13, there's a 6 document, Public Affairs Log, it's Inquiry Document 7 7000646. 8 And was this something maintained by your 9 office or provided to you by someone else in the 10 Military? 11 Have you seen this document before? 12 A: I have not. It was not prepared by my 13 office. I suspect this was -- was prepared by the Public 14 Affairs Branch at LFCA Headquarters. 15 Q: It appears it says: 16 "PAFF contact Captain Bossi." 17 And it's entitled, Public Affairs Log. 18 And it's reporting on a number of items and has some 19 newspaper reports attached. 20 Now, is this something that you understood 21 the Public Affairs -- it was part of their job would be 22 to monitor TV press reports? 23 A: I think so, yes. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Public Affairs, I don't care about
741 them. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I don't care about Public Affairs 4 people. You know, they do what they do. 5 Q: But -- but among the -- the different 6 tasks that -- when you were there they would collect 7 information about what was being published in the 8 newspapers or on the radio. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: The TV? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: Commissioner, I'd ask that this be 13 marked the next exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1808, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1808: Document Number 7000647. 17 Public Affairs Log, July 07, 18 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Then at Tab 14 it's a -- Inquiry 22 Document 7000353. It's a report for July -- Situation 23 Report Number 8 for July 7th and 8th. And the -- I would 24 ask that this be marked the next exhibit. It's signed by 25 then Captain Smith.
751 THE REGISTRAR: P-1809, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1809: Document Number 7000353. 4 Situation Report number 8, 5 July 07-08, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And at Tab 15 is Situation Report 9 Number 9. It's Inquiry Document 7000577 for the period 10 July 8th and 9th. 11 And this again is -- was authored by you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 14 the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1810, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1810: Document Number 7000577. 18 Situation Report number 9, 19 July 08-09, 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And on page 2 paragraph 6 there's a 23 reference to the cross-cultural training course having 24 been scheduled for July 12th and 13 and established for 25 eighteen (18) persons?
761 A: Yes. 2 Q: And it was recommended that the 3 current manning be maintained until July 13th/'95 to 4 maintain maximum participation in this important 5 training. 6 Who did you expect to attend the training, 7 Captain -- Mr. Smith? 8 A: The -- a large number of my military 9 police who were there -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- with representation from the Band, 12 several Native elders, myself and then some 13 administrative folks. I think we had some public affairs 14 also. 15 Q: And did you -- what about members of 16 the Stoney Point Group that were occupying the Army Camp? 17 Did you -- do you -- 18 A: The invitation was -- was provided to 19 them to attend. 20 Q: So that there was an invitation to 21 attend to the occupiers at the Army Camp? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- we'll see in the documents 24 and we've heard that Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah 25 participated in the cultural training?
771 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you make arrangements, sir, 3 for their participation in the training? 4 A: A number of people participated in 5 the -- in making the overall arrangements, but I was -- I 6 was predominantly responsible for getting those two (2) 7 there. 8 Q: And did you know Mr. Elijah and Mr. 9 Antone before July 1995? 10 A: Prior to Ipperwash? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: No. 13 Q: And had they been recommended to you 14 by someone as appropriate people -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- to conduct the training? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: And who recommended them to you? 19 A: I think I -- I don't know if I saw 20 their names in the news or if I got their name from -- 21 from the Canada Ranger. It's from the CFB Borden guy. I 22 -- I don't know -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- where I got their names from. 25 Q: And the CFB -- the Ranger -- when you
781 say, "the Ranger," what are you referring to? 2 A: One (1) of the -- I think he was the 3 at the time the Commander of the Canadian Rangers 4 Program. 5 Q: And what is -- what was in 1995 the 6 Canadian Rangers Program? 7 A: I don't have a lot of information 8 about that. The Canadian Rangers Program is the -- it's 9 the program where in Northern Canada the -- the Military 10 and the Natives work to -- to help ensure sovereignty 11 across the north -- Northern Canada. 12 Q: And the -- and you had discussions 13 with the commander of that unit? 14 A: I think he was the commander, yes. 15 Q: Then at Tab 16 is Inquiry Document 16 7000390. And it's Situation Report number 10 for the 17 period July 9th and 10th. And although Captain Howse 18 appears to have signed this, it's over your name, Captain 19 -- Mr. Smith. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 22 exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1811, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1811: Document Number 7000390.
791 Situation Report number 10, 2 July 09-10, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And at Tab 17 is Inquiry Document 6 7000403 Situation Report number 11. Appears to have been 7 signed by you and I would ask that this be marked the 8 next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1812, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1812: Document Number 7000403. 12 Situation Report number 11, 13 July 10-11, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And this refers to, in item number 2, 17 that there was a altercation on the Military beach; is 18 that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at this point in time was the 21 Military beach posted as off limits to campers? 22 A: Yes, I think it was. 23 Q: And so that campers were not to -- 24 the theory was they would not attend on the Military 25 beach; is that correct?
801 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 2 Q: And then there's a reference to 3 Inspector Lyton, L-Y-T-O-N, and a meeting with Glenn 4 George and, I believe that's Inspector Linton, L-I-N-T-O- 5 N? 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: Are you aware -- did -- had you met 8 Inspector Linton at this point in time? 9 A: I don't know if I'd met him prior to 10 that or not. Somewhere in there. 11 Q: Okay. Did you meet him at some 12 point? 13 A: Yes, I'm sure we did. 14 Q: And during the summer of -- in July 15 1995 was there a ongoing contact between you and the OPP 16 other than at Grand Bend? 17 Did you meet with John Carson during that 18 period of time in July? 19 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And did you know who John Carson was? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was your understanding of 23 his role in Jul -- in the summer of 1995? 24 A: The -- well, he was -- I think he was 25 working out of London at the time.
811 Q: Yes? 2 A: And then so he was providing overall 3 OPP support, responsible for overall OPP action. 4 Q: With respect to the Army Camp? 5 A: To the -- well, to this area in 6 general. 7 Q: Yeah. And did you have meetings with 8 -- any meetings with John Carson? 9 A: John and I met a few times, yes. 10 Q: And there was an organization or a 11 committee called the JIC, Joint Intelligence Committee? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what was that, sir? 14 A: It was just a forum of law 15 enforcement agencies where they would share intelligence 16 between agencies on whatever particular activity was 17 going on. 18 Q: And we've heard of the Joint Forces 19 out of London where the Military and the police; is that 20 the same -- 21 A: The -- 22 Q: -- the JFO, Joint Forces between -- I 23 may have misspoken. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
821 2 Q: I misspoke myself, Commissioner. 3 So the JIC when -- can you tell us a 4 little bit more about the JIC. 5 How often did you -- did it meet in the 6 summer of 1995, July/August? 7 A: I think they were only meeting once a 8 month, give or take. 9 Q: And the purpose was to -- to do what? 10 A: Exchange information between 11 participating law enforcement agencies. 12 Q: Okay. And -- now, at Tab 18 is a 13 copy of Exhibit P-256 and it's the Situation Report for 14 July 11 and 12, 1993 -- excuse me, 1995. 15 And this appears to have been authored by 16 you as well? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And it refers on the third page of 19 the document, but the second page of the situation 20 report, 6(u): 21 "The first day of cross-cultural 22 awareness training was completed 23 without incident. Training was 24 considered to be excellent. Detailed 25 after -- action report to follow."
831 So that the first day of the training was 2 held on July 12th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- and everyone thought it 5 was an excellent program? 6 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And then at item 4, paragraph 4(c), 8 there's a comment: 9 "OPP agree that conflict will occur 10 between KSBP, Kettle and Stoney Point 11 Band, and SPG, Stoney Point Group, when 12 the Military vacates Camp Ipperwash. 13 As far as the OPP are concerned that 14 will be an internal Band problem and 15 they will not get involved until it is 16 over. The OPP had no information on 17 the KSPB, intent with respect to the 18 environmental assessment/clean up." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And was that information you'd been 21 provided by the OPP? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at the next tab, tab 19 is a copy 24 of Inquiry Document 7000321. It's been marked as Exhibit 25 P-271. It's Situation Report 013 and it's for the period
841 July 12th to 13th. 2 And it reports upon the cross-cultural 3 training? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And lists the attendees? 6 A: It does. 7 Q: And there's a reference in paragraph 8 1, Native activity -- under Native Elements of 1(c): 9 "Native activity during the report 10 period restricted to observation of the 11 built-up area and continued occupation 12 of the Military beach. Local Native 13 element is aware that cross-cultural 14 awareness training, CCAT, is being 15 conducted and that several high ranking 16 Native negotiators are present. As 17 such, their activity has been reduced 18 substantially." 19 That was -- that was an assumption that 20 you made as to why there was reduced activity? 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: And did -- I think as you told me, 23 that an invitation was extended to Members of the 24 occupiers to attend and did any attend? 25 A: No. From the occupying side?
851 Q: Yes. 2 A: No. 3 Q: And there were a number of 4 individuals attended as listed under paragraph 2(c)? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at the top of page -- the third 7 page, it's 3(c): 8 "During the process of the CCAT, cross- 9 cultural awareness training, a plan of 10 action was developed that would enable 11 the Military to mediate its way out of 12 the situation. This plan was presented 13 -- also presented as a means of 14 immediately reducing tension between 15 the SPG and Military personnel of Camp 16 Ipperwash, and in the near future will 17 provide a means of ensuring the 18 environmental assessment is completed 19 in conjunction with an orderly handover 20 of the land to KSPB/SPG. The plan is 21 outlined as follows. A detailed plan 22 will be developed over the next two (2) 23 weeks." 24 And I take it that the plan was to bring 25 everyone together at a meeting on August the 26th?
861 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- in item -- paragraph 3(a), 3 there's the list of the attendees, and 3(b) the purpose 4 of the meeting to take place on August 26th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And in paragraph 4, Mr. Elijah and 7 Mr. Antone are the two (2) senior Native negotiators that 8 are referred to in this paragraph? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it was your understanding they'd 11 agreed to approach Glenn George to speak to him? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And do you know, sir if they did? 14 A: I believe they did. 15 Q: And it was reported back to you that 16 they had; is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then in Item 6(c) -- in Item 5 it 19 reports that Lieutenant Colonel Sweeney, S-W-E-E-N-E-Y, 20 attended to Camp Ipperwash on July 13th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was he the commander from London? 23 A: No, he was from -- he was a 24 representative from LFCA. 25 Q: From Land Forces Central --
871 A: Central Area Headquarters, yes. 2 Q: And in Item 6, paragraph 6: 3 "The G3 agreed in principle with the 4 proposed plan and the meeting August 5 26th, 1995 is to proceed. In addition, 6 a PAFF plan is to be developed to deal 7 specifically with the military beach. 8 This should take the form of public -- 9 of a public advisory message, to advise 10 the public to stay off of the contested 11 area as it is the subject of land claim 12 negotiations. Additionally, pamphlets 13 should be prepared to be distributed by 14 the Ministry of Natural Resources to 15 occupants of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 16 Information on meeting of 26 August/'95 17 should not be distributed until the 18 meeting is complete and results known." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At this point in time in July of -- 21 July 1995 you were working on ways to advise people to 22 stay off the military beach? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: The -- and in paragraph 7(c) you 25 write:
881 "It is very strongly recommended that 2 the Military participation at the 3 meeting August 26th '95 be kept at the 4 lowest, i.e. working level. 5 Relationships involving trust and 6 working plan have already been 7 established from this level. This must 8 be maintained through to completion of 9 the negotiation process. Not only will 10 this enhance military credibility but 11 participants will require in-depth 12 knowledge of the situation and various 13 personalities. And additionally, every 14 effort must be made to SP..." 15 A: Support. 16 Q: "...[support] this meeting as the 17 Military now has a window of 18 opportunity to eliminate a 19 confrontational situation, achieve the 20 political aim by properly returning 21 cleaned up land to the Natives, return 22 the land in a relatively short 23 timeframe and establish credibility 24 with the First Nations people for 25 possible future land claim issue."
891 So this was -- your idea and 2 recommendation was that people who had participated on 3 the Army Camp participate in the meeting? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And had you -- did you have any 6 information at this time as to how long the process of 7 the -- of the Kettle and Stony Point people had been 8 trying to get back the Army Camp? 9 A: How long the overall thing had been-- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- going on? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: What -- whatever it was, I had some 14 documents about that, yeah. 15 Q: It had been going on for a long time? 16 A: It had been going on for a long time. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps this 18 would be a good place to take a break, Mr. Millar? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 21 moving onto another -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. No, this would 23 be fine. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps this 25 would be a good place to take a break.
901 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 11:37 a.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 11:58 a.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed, please be seated. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: If we could, Mr. Smith, turn to Tab 14 20, and this is a copy of Inquiry Document 7000324. It's 15 already been marked as Exhibit P-274. It's situation 16 report 14 for the period July 13 to July 15, 1995. 17 And that was issued by you, Mr. Smith? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then the -- there's a report 20 under, "Native Elements," at paragraph 1, that: 21 "Bob Antoine and Bruce Elijah were 22 observed meeting with Glenn George." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
911 Q: And attached to the third page of 2 this -- excuse me, the fourth page of this document is a 3 notice with respect to the Beach; is that correct? 4 Have I read that correctly? 5 A: Yes. I think so -- 6 Q: And it -- 7 A: -- so far. 8 Q: -- referred to, in paragraph 2 under, 9 "Own situation?" 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: As being -- going to be printed up 12 and distributed? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And to be ready for July 19th, 1995? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Then item 3 refers to: 17 "level of alert remains at moderate. 18 The OP has been moved into the 19 guardhouse in building 25 due to 20 extreme heat." 21 What's that refer to "OP"? 22 A: Observation Post. 23 Q: Okay. And the guardhouse was the 24 guardhouse at the...? 25 A: In the built-up area.
921 Q: In the built-up area. And then was 2 it typical that, if you go to page 1 of Exhibit P-274, 3 that Captain Howse would send these on to the four (4) 4 different places the situation reports went? 5 A: Yes. Standard distribution list. 6 Q: Then at Tab 21 is situation report 7 15, Inquiry Document 7000325, again authored by you. 8 It's for the period July 15 to 16 and the -- I would ask 9 that this be the next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1813, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1813: Document Number 7000325. 13 Situation Report number 15, 14 July 15-16, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And, thank you. In paragraph 1: 18 "Native activity during the report 19 period restricted to observation of 20 built-up area and continued occupation 21 of the military beach. There has not 22 been any official response to the offer 23 of mediation made to Glenn George by 24 Bob Antoine and Bruce Elijah, although 25 lack of activity continues to suggest
931 that they were successful." 2 And that's a reference to mediating the 3 dispute and the meeting of August 26th, 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that correct? 6 A: I think so. Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And then at Tab 22 there's a 8 copy of Inquiry Document 7000327. It's Situation Report 9 16 for the period July 16 and 17. 10 Again, this one (1) is over your signature 11 but appears that Captain Howse signed on your behalf? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there's a note: 14 "Captain Smith will remain in Ipperwash 15 until [it appears to be] end August 16 '95." 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was that your understanding at the 19 time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I would ask that this be made the 22 next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1814, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1814: Document Number 7000327.
941 Situation Report number 16, 2 July 16-17, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And in paragraph 2 under "Native 6 elements," they refer to: 7 "Additionally there have been two (2) 8 signs posted in the training area close 9 to the perimeter fence between Camp A 10 and B. One (1) of the signs says, 'Two 11 (2) sides.'" 12 And these -- the descriptions on the signs 13 were listed. And these were -- two (2) signs were posted 14 by the occupiers? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the second sign is referred to in 17 paragraph 3? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to Tab 20 23, it's in situation report 17, it's Inquiry document 21 7000328. And we appear to be missing page 2 but I will 22 get that Commissioner at the lunch break. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
951 Q: Actually, I won't, the only -- we 2 only have one (1) page in the database. So this appears 3 to be situation report for July 17 and 18. And again, it 4 refers to signs being posted? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I would ask that this one (1) 7 page -- there's a second page that we don't have, 8 Commissioner, this one (1) page document be marked the 9 next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1815, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1815: Document number 7000328. 13 Situation Report number 17, 14 July 17-18, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And at Tab 24 -- 18 A: Actually there would be no other 19 information on the second page; you've got to paragraph 4 20 here, that's the end of it. 21 Q: Oh, so even though it says page 1 of 22 2, it really should have been just one (1) page? 23 A: The only part of the second page is a 24 signature block. 25 Q: Okay. So that all of the relevant
961 information is on the page that we marked as P-1815? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Smith. The 4 next Tab 24 is a copy of situation report 18, it's 5 Inquiry document 7000329. And again, this was prepared 6 by you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Excuse me -- and it's for the period 9 July 18 and 19 and I would ask this be marked the next 10 Exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1816, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1816: Document number 7000329. 14 Situation Report number 18, 15 July18-19, 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And the Oneida conference that's 19 referred to in paragraph 3(c) is the conference -- the 20 meeting on August 25th, 1995. Is that what that refers 21 to? 22 A: I think so, yes. 23 Q: And there was a recommendation that 24 the built-up area be enclosed with a fence? 25 A: Yes.
971 Q: And did that happen? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And if I could ask you to turn 4 to paragraph -- Tab 25, this is a copy of Inquiry 5 document 7000573, it's been marked as Inquiry document P- 6 273. And this document is dated July 17, 1995, if I read 7 this correctly. And it appears to be a situation report, 8 although it's in a different format. And do you 9 recognize this document? 10 A: I recognize the contents, not the 11 actual document. This was prepared by the G3 of LFCA 12 headquarters. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: The was prepared by the G3 of LFCA 15 headquarters. 16 Q: So this -- G3 is -- what's G3 refer 17 to? 18 A: The man -- or the person in charge of 19 operations. 20 Q: Okay. So that this was -- appears to 21 have been prepared from situation reports submitted by 22 you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And this refers principally to the 25 August 26 meeting and the cultural awareness training and
981 what -- what had taken place? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what was proposed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you need the approval of Land 6 Forces Central Area to have the meeting on August 26th, 7 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And this document appears to have 10 been forwarded to a number of places in Ottawa? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Among others? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And so in the ordinary course of 15 events in the chain of command, this document would have 16 gone from the Land Forces Central Area to Ottawa -- 17 Headquarters in Ottawa; is that correct? 18 A: Yes, up through the chain of command. 19 Q: Up the chain of command. And at Tab 20 26 is a copy of Inquiry Document 7000333, it's the 21 Situation Report 19 for the period July 19 and 20. And I 22 would ask that this be marked the next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1817, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1817: Document number 7000333.
991 Situation Report number 19, 2 July 19-20, 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And this appears to have been signed 6 by Captain Howse on your behalf. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Then at Tab 27 is a copy of Inquiry 9 Document 7000331 and it's an Intelligence Report 9. It's 10 dated July 20th, 1995 and it was -- it's over your name 11 although there's not -- it's not signed and it refers to 12 the burning of a sign on the military beach; is that 13 correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- and the sign that was on fire 16 is noted in Item -- paragraph 2, it was a large sign: 17 "Military Beach Out of Bounds." 18 Is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when the MP attempted to 21 extinguish the fire, the MP and the OPP were approached 22 by a young Native male who admitted to starting the fire, 23 stating it was on his land. That was reported to you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this individual was arrested.
1001 A: He was. 2 Q: And then in paragraph 3 there's a 3 report that Glenn George arrived and, among other things, 4 he approached the Ipperwash fence and shouted at the 5 Campers, I hope you all got your money's worth because 6 you won't be here next year. 7 And that -- were you present when this 8 occurred or is this reported to you? 9 A: This was reported to me. I was in 10 the headquarters. 11 Q: Headquarters? 12 A: In the built-up area. 13 Q: In the built-up area. And then on 14 the next page at paragraph 4: 15 "With a view to informing campers at 16 the Ipperwash Provincial Park of the 17 possible hazards of trespassing on the 18 military beach required direction 19 soonest with respect to distribution of 20 warning pamphlets as described in 21 reference B." 22 And that's the pamphlet we had looked at 23 in one (1) of the earlier situation reports? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: Did you ultimately get approval to
1011 print the pamphlets and distribute them? 2 A: Yes, and we stuck signs up all over 3 the outside fence and... 4 Q: And in paragraph 5: 5 "MP must continue to respond to 6 incidents that occur on the border of 7 the military beach and Ip." 8 And "Ip" means Ipperwash Provincial Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "These incidents are well in public 11 view and as such it would only cause 12 further tension or discontent if the 13 Military Police did not respond. The 14 policy of avoidance of confrontation 15 and de-escalation of tension will 16 continue to apply. OPP will continue 17 to be [required] to attend." 18 That's what that says. "Req" is required? 19 A: Request. 20 Q: "Requested to attend," excuse me. 21 And then 6(c): 22 "Captain Smith will meet with Mr. Dick 23 Bressette, a Kettle and Stony Point 24 band elder, within the next twenty-four 25 (24) hours with a request to not allow
1021 events such as this to jeopardize the 2 Oneida Conference." 3 And is that again referring to the August 4 26th -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- conference? And it's referred to 7 as the Oneida Conference because of Bruce Elijah and Bob 8 Antone were from -- from Oneida? 9 A: Yes, and I think because it was going 10 to be held down there. 11 Q: It was going to be held in Oneida? 12 A: And Tab 28 -- oh, excuse me. Haste 13 makes waste. I would ask that this be marked the next 14 exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1818. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1818: Document Number 7000331. 18 Intelligence Report number 9, 19 July 20, 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Thank you. At Tab 28 is a copy of 23 Inquiry Document 7000337, it's Situation Report Number 21 24 and it's dated July 21, 23, 1995. And again, that 25 appears to have been authored by you?
1031 A: Yes. 2 Q: I would ask that this be the next 3 exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1819, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1819: Document Number 7000337. 7 Situation Report number 21, 8 July 21-23, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And then I would ask you to turn to 12 Tab 57, please, Mr. Smith. And at 57 you will find 13 Inquiry Document 7000326. And this document refers to 14 the meeting on August 26th, 1995. 15 And did you prepare this document, sir? 16 A: It reads as if I did, yes. I don't 17 see the -- 18 Q: There's no indication -- 19 A: This is not a complete document. 20 Q: Yeah. What we have in the database 21 is these two (2) pages. But if -- do you recognize this 22 document? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1041 A: I would -- I'm -- I'm fairly sure I 2 wrote this. 3 Q: Okay. I would ask that this be 4 marked the next exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1820, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1820: Document Number 7000326. 8 Ipperwash Update, (undated). 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And on page -- the second page refers 12 to: 13 "A course of action being proposed as 14 what was agreed to should be followed." 15 Is that -- have I read that correctly? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Then if I could ask you to go 18 back to Tab 29, Inquiry Document 7000336, Situation 19 Report 022 for the period July 23, 24, 1995. And this, 20 again, appears to have been authored by you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I would ask that this be the next 23 exhibit? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1821, Your Honour. 25
1051 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1821: Document Number 7000336. 2 Situation Report number 22, 3 July 23-24, 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And this refers to, among other 7 things, that: 8 "Native activity during the report 9 period restricted to observation of the 10 built-up area and continued occupation 11 of the military beach. In accordance 12 with reference low level in contact 13 with members of KSPB..." 14 That'll be Kettle and Stoney Point Band? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: "... all parties have adopted a wait 17 and see attitude in anticipation of the 18 letter from DESP, Fred McGuire, to the 19 Kettle and Stoney Point Chief, Tom 20 Bressette." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And "DESP" is the...? 23 A: It's Dillon -- whatever they were 24 called. 25 Q: Refers to the Environmental
1061 Assessment? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And Fred McGuire was a -- an employee 4 of the Government of Canada? Or do you know? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: Okay. Then at the next tab, Tab 30, 7 is a copy of Inquiry Document 7000338. It's situation 8 report for the period July 24, July 26, 1995. And it has 9 already been marked as Exhibit P-272. And item under, 10 "Native elements 1:" 11 "Native activity during the report 12 period restricted to observation of the 13 built-up area and continued occupation 14 of the military beach. Native activity 15 on the military beach, in particular 16 area GR228854 [in brackets] (adjacent 17 to Ipperwash Provincial Park, IPP) had 18 become noticeably more aggressive. At 19 approximately 21:30 hours, 25 July, 20 '95, the last military signs in that 21 area were knocked down and destroyed in 22 a fire. They have not been replaced. 23 During the night of 25 July, '95 24 approximately fifteen (15) Natives were 25 partying in that area, as they've been
1071 known to do. This time several had 2 hand held air horns and they made a 3 concentrated effort to disturb the 4 peace of campers in IPP. Their actions 5 suggested they were attempting to 6 incite a police response, although no 7 police responded. 8 Sooner or later they will be forced to 9 as the Natives will simply escalate 10 their activity to force a response." 11 And this was your interpretation of what 12 was going on? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the -- in the next item it 15 reports on the contact -- continued contact of Bob 16 Antoine and Bruce Elijah with Glenn George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And at this point it says: 19 "All three (3) meetings were positive 20 and the SPG remain interested in 21 attending a Native circle. 22 b) All parties are concerned about the 23 probable SPG reaction when they 24 officially informed that the meeting 25 August 26 is now cancelled."
1081 And why was it cancelled? 2 A: I -- 3 Q: Do you recall today? 4 A: I don't recall why that was 5 cancelled. 6 Q: Okay. And then at the top of page 2: 7 "Bob Antoine and Bruce Elijah will meet 8 with Tom Bressette at 25-26 July, '95 9 with a view to convincing him to 10 support the meeting scheduled for 26 11 August, '95." 12 So it appears that it might still be on? 13 A: Could be. 14 Q: And then: 15 "MNR has erected a large sign on the 16 Military beach side of IPP, advising 17 campers not to proceed west of the 18 Ipperwash boundary." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you were aware of that sign being 21 posted? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then under, "Administration," it 24 appears that you're seeking a meeting at this time with 25 Glenn George to discuss the wording of signs; is that
1091 correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And your concern was, unless the 4 Stoney Point group were in agreement with the signs that 5 they could probably be destroyed? 6 A: Yes, that's right. 7 Q: And in July, 1995 did you have a 8 meeting -- ever have a meeting with Glenn George? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Then at Tab 31 is Inquiry Document 11 7000339, it's Exhibit P-284 and it's Situation Report 24. 12 And that was authored by you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And again, it reports that Bob 15 Antoine, in paragraph 2, was continuing his contacts with 16 the Stoney Point Group and -- who were in the process of 17 picking three (3) persons to attend the proposed meeting 18 on August 26th, 1995 -- 19 A: I'm sorry -- I think I've lost you. 20 I've only got two (2) pages here. 21 Q: You should have -- it's 700339? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1101 Q: So you have the cover page which is 2 signed by -- 3 A: By me. 4 Q: -- by you. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then the first page -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: My next page starts at paragraph 4. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Okay. All right. 14 Q: And if you refer to the second page 15 under 2(c). 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And there's a reference in paragraph 18 (a) to Bob Antoine advising that he had been in contact 19 with the Stoney Point Group and they were in the process 20 of picking three (3) persons to attend the meeting? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And he reported that he was aware of 23 resistance from Chief Tom Bressette? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But was going to meet with him to
1111 attempt to get him to attend as well? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 3 Q: And he had arranged a meeting between 4 you and Glenn George to discuss signs and security that 5 was to take place on August the 1st, '95? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And at this point in time, under 8 "Administration 4," the estimated completion of the 9 removal of the recoverable stores plus Operation Maple 10 equipment was July 28th, '95? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And the final cleanup of the 13 buildings area to be completed by August 4th, '95? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So that the recoverable assets, other 16 than what was being used by you and your team, would be 17 out by July 28th? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And were they out by July 28th? 20 A: We were getting close. We didn't get 21 them all out. 22 Q: Okay. And at the next tab, Tab 32, 23 is a copy of Inquiry Document 7000340, Situation Report 24 Number 25 for the period July 27th and 28. And this was 25 authored by you?
1121 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I would ask that be the next 3 exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1822, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1822: Document Number 7000341. 7 Situation Report number 25, 8 July 27-28,1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And then on -- at Tab 33 is a copy of 12 Exhibit P-275. And I'd ask a question: As of June -- 13 July 29th, 1995, during your period of time at the 14 Ipperwash Army Camp from the end of June '95 to July 15 29th, 1995, were any of the members of the Military 16 Police threatened with a firearm by any of the occupiers? 17 A: With a firearm? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Not to my knowledge, no. 20 Q: And can you tell us what happened on 21 July 29th, 1995? 22 A: Was that the day that they took the 23 Base? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Okay.
1131 Q: At -- at Exhibit P-7000341 is your 2 Situation Report 26. It's Exhibit P-275 for the period 3 July 28th to 30th and it appears to be a report by you of 4 what happened. Do you recall anything independently, Mr. 5 Smith? 6 A: Outside of what was described here? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: No, it's a -- it's a four (4) page 9 report that summarizes a fairly hectic day, but. 10 Q: Can you tell us -- we can all read 11 this but can you tell us from your recollection what you 12 recall of July 29th, 1995? 13 A: The -- so on that particular day we 14 had really no indication that the Base was going to be 15 occupied. We -- I believe everyone was under the 16 impression that negotiations were moving relatively well. 17 So in the morning, whatever particular 18 time it was, or around lunch time, the -- I was, in fact, 19 about to go out for a run, and just as I stepped out the 20 door the bus came through the back gate from Army Camp 21 Road, crashed through the gate which had been chained and 22 blocked off with a number of large truck-size garbage 23 bins. 24 Q: And perhaps we could -- looking at 25 the map that we marked earlier as Exhibit...
1141 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: ...1794, where was the fence that the 4 bus crashed through? 5 A: A 100 or so metres down Army Camp 6 Road, almost under the hand, I think. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: Almost under the hand, I think, 9 somewhere down in there. 10 Q: In this area? 11 A: Somewhere down in there, yeah, 12 right -- 13 Q: Did it come from Army Camp Road or 14 come from inside the Army Camp? 15 A: It may have come from inside, I just 16 saw it as it slammed through the gate. 17 Q: And there was a gate on the -- at 18 this point, on the north side of the built-up area? 19 A: Yes. Yeah. 20 Q: And so that the bus -- you saw the 21 bus come through the gate? 22 A: The bus came through the gate. 23 Q: Then what happened? 24 A: So I headed over to the -- to the 25 headquarters. On my way to the headquarters, past the
1151 front gate, I noticed that the front gate was being 2 crashed also by a number of Natives and the 3 commissionaires on the front gate were obstentiously 4 (sic) being swarmed by them. They were trying to sort of 5 control things and they could not. 6 I was trying to get back to the -- to the 7 police headquarters building. 8 Q: And where was that? 9 A: That was on the other side of the 10 built- up area. And in the process of doing that, on the 11 radio there -- a call for help came from the guys that 12 were on the Parade Square. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And it sounded relatively serious 15 there. So I, in fact, jumped on the back of an ATV of 16 some gentleman that was there and told him to get me to 17 the Parade Square. 18 I arrived at the Parade Square and three 19 (3) of my men were surrounded by a fairly hostile mob. 20 They had, at that point, deployed pepper spray to try to 21 keep the crowd back from them. And things looked to be 22 escalating at a fairly rapid rate. 23 So I spoke to my men and told them to get 24 back to the police headquarters. 25 Q: And on that we've got a copy of P-41
1161 on the screen. And can you tell us -- can you tell us 2 which -- can you point out -- there's a laser pointer on 3 the desk there. 4 A: Oh, this could be dangerous. Yes. 5 Q: Where the -- the Parade Square is the 6 large black area in the middle? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at the end of that is a -- I 9 think that was the gym? 10 A: The drill hall. 11 Q: The drill hall. And where was the 12 Military Police headquarters? 13 A: So our building was right here. 14 Q: And that would be next -- it's the 15 building 44? 16 A: Looks like it. 17 Q: Or next to Building 44. And, okay, 18 so you were back at the -- you were in the drill -- the 19 Parade Square? 20 A: Yeah. We were right about there. 21 Q: And you're pointing to an area just 22 to the south and west of the drill -- the Drill Hall? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. Then what happened? 25 A: So I ordered my men, the three (3)
1171 guys that were surrounded, back to -- back to the 2 headquarters building. And I, in fact, knew at that 3 point that we would not be able to hold this Base. 4 Q: And at this point in time had pepper 5 spray been used, to your knowledge? 6 A: Yes. The -- the three (3) guys that 7 had used the pepper spray, one (1) of the -- one (1) of 8 the people that had received it was down on the ground 9 choking a fair bit. 10 Q: And you -- was there a concern about 11 that person on the ground? 12 A: There was because he seemed to be 13 having some kind of a reaction to the -- to the chemical 14 in the pepper spray -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- which was not good. So my guys 17 got out of there and we -- I think we got some water for 18 the fellow that was down and tried to get him sorted out. 19 And at the same time there was -- at that point things 20 were a little bit chaotic. There was mini confrontations 21 all over this Base. 22 Q: And at this point, when the water was 23 obtained for the person on the ground, you were present 24 in that area? 25 A: No. I continued to move back towards
1181 the -- the headquarters building. I had -- 2 Q: The police headquarters building? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I had a responsibility to get the 6 information back to my headquarters about what was going 7 on. 8 Q: Yes. And then what happened? 9 A: So I got the message back to 10 headquarters. There were ongoing problems throughout 11 this Base. I can't remember who was in charge on the -- 12 it wasn't Glenn. I can't remember who I was talking to 13 from the -- the Native side. 14 But we agreed at that point that we would 15 just try and de-escalate the fighting and allow the 16 Natives to occupy the church and a couple of other 17 buildings in that immediate area, just to try to separate 18 the forces and get control on the situation. 19 Q: And when you say, In the immediate 20 area, what are you referring to? 21 A: A couple of buildings right around 22 the church, but predominantly the church. 23 Q: And that was building 46, the Chapel, 24 is that -- 25 A: The Chapel, yeah. Yeah.
1191 Q: The Chapel. And that's -- Building 2 46 is just located to the west of the headquarters. Next 3 to it was the hospital? 4 A: Yeah, further on. 5 Q: And that's -- 6 A: I think it's that one (1). 7 Q: Yeah. It's listed as forty-six (46) 8 on -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- on the legend on Exhibit P-41, 11 yes? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: So -- 14 A: So we came to sort of an intermediate 15 agreement on -- on they would have the church and a 16 couple of buildings there. We would try and separate the 17 Forces to sort things out. But, I -- I -- like I said, I 18 knew at that point that we could not hold the Base. 19 And I knew, just the way things were 20 going, that, you know, to try to come up with a plan to 21 co-exist within the built-up area was just not tenable. 22 Q: And I note on Exhibit P-275 that you 23 contacted Dick Bressette? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what was the purpose of
1201 contacting Mr. Bressette? 2 A: He was one (1) of the recognized 3 elders. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: And I was hoping to solicit his 6 assistance in trying to -- to get some calm and control 7 on the situation. 8 Q: And what happened with Mr. Bressette? 9 A: I think he showed up a little bit 10 later on. 11 Q: And there's a note in P-275, page 12 2(h): "The SPG Group, [Stoney Point 13 Group] refused to allow him onto the 14 Camp." 15 Is that what happened? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: And then I note, as well, that you 18 contacted Bob Antoine and Bruce Elijah? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And asked for their assistance? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And asked them to come to the Camp? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And they did come to the Camp? 25 A: Yes, I believe they came.
1211 Q: And -- 2 A: I don't think -- I can't remember if 3 they got on or not. I don't think they did. 4 Q: If you look at -- I know it's a long 5 time ago, P-275 page 3, item 2 -- item 1, excuse me, (i) 6 and (j); (i) refers to you contacting Bob Antoine and 7 Bruce Elijah? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then (j) refers to Bob Antoine 10 and Bruce Elijah conducting extensive negotiations? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And they advise you, I take it, that 13 the Stoney Point Group had no intention of leaving, the 14 Stoney Point Group was armed, OPP confirmed this, and the 15 Kettle and Stoney Point Band had no control at all over 16 the Stoney Point Group? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was told to you by Mr. 19 Antoine and Mr. Elijah? 20 A: A combination, yes. Yeah. 21 Q: And then what happened? 22 A: Well, over the next few hours we -- 23 we just worked to come up with a withdrawal plan and I 24 conducted a withdrawal from the Base. 25 Q: And when did you leave the Base?
1221 A: Sometime that night, whatever -- 2 whatever time it says. 3 Q: It says here, 3(c): 4 "The Camp was successfully evacuated at 5 approximately 23:30 hours." 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And does that accord with your 8 recollection? 9 A: Close enough. 10 Q: And then at the next tab, Tab 11 7000576, it's a copy of Exhibit P-276. And this is a 12 situation report 27 and it covers the same period of time 13 as 26, and appears to be similar in some, but not all its 14 details. And was this a situation report that you 15 prepared? Your signature appears on the third page. 16 It appears what's happened here is that 17 there's a situation report -- it's interleaved with what 18 looks like to be a telex? 19 A: Just a moment -- 20 Q: I've got five (5) -- this is a number 21 of pages that has a number of documents. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: And the situation report that's at 24 the second and third page, appears to be signed by you; 25 is that correct?
1231 If you go to the first three (3) pages. 2 A: We're in Tab 34? 3 Q: Tab 34, page 2. 4 A: There's nothing signed by me. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: The copy of that -- of Exhibit P-276 10 that you have, the last two (2) pages are the Situation 11 Report Number 27 and it appears that your signature's on 12 that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then at Tab 35 there's a second 15 situation report that runs from July 30th to -- I don't 16 know what the -- the next date, I don't know if it's to 17 be the 31st? 18 A: It should probably be 1st of August, 19 I would think. 20 Q: And this -- do you -- can you recall 21 today why there were two (2) situation reports numbered 22 twenty-seven (27), other than perhaps somebody simply put 23 twenty-seven (27) on two (2) of them? 24 A: No, it's because the one that we have 25 now in Tab 35 --
1241 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- was a situation report generated 3 by a the Detachment administration officer in London. 4 Q: Oh, I see. Okay, Captain Willis, so 5 that -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- this was not -- I misread that. 8 I'm sorry about that. 9 And so this document is a document 10 prepared by London and reports, in effect, on what you 11 reported to them? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 14 the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1823, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1823: Document Number 7000276. 18 Situation Report number 27, 19 July 30, 1995 Detachment 20 London. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then when you left on July 29th what 24 did you do? Where did you go? 25 A: That night we went -- we worked our
1251 way back to London, this Base at London. 2 Q: Okay. And at Tab 36 there's a copy 3 of Exhibit P -- I mean Inquiry Document 7000575. 4 And this is a document prepared by London, 5 is that correct, and transmitted to Toronto among other 6 places and Ottawa? 7 A: I'm not sure who prepared -- G3 Ops, 8 this might have been prepared by LFCA. 9 Q: And it's dated July 31st '95? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it refers to the takeover and 12 then it refers on page -- the fourth page, 3.B(1)(I): 13 "CFB Toronto continue to provide B 14 Security Officers and Military Liaison 15 Officer with the OPP Detachment, 16 Forest?" 17 Do -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- you see that? And then it refers 20 in the next paragraph to you. 21 And that's -- you became the liaison 22 officer; is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 25 the next exhibit?
1261 THE REGISTRAR: P-1824, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1824: Document Number 7000575. 4 Summary of Takeover of Base, 5 July 30-31, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And if I could ask you to turn, Mr. 9 Smith, to Tab 39. And this is Inquiry Document 7000244. 10 And this is entitled, A Military Police Unusual Incident 11 Report. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was the first four (4) pages 14 appear to be a report and did you prepare this report? 15 A: No. This was -- this was prepared by 16 London so they used my MPUIR to prepare this. 17 Q: So that you had -- you had filed a 18 police -- military police unusual incident report and 19 they simply took it and made this? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: I would ask that the first four (4) 22 pages of that tab, Inquiry Document Number 7000244, be 23 the next exhibit. There's more pages in that tab than... 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1825, Your Honour. 25
1271 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1825: Document Number 7000244. 2 MPUIR, August 03, 1995. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: It's 244. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 244. It's four (4) 6 pages. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And then if I could ask you to turn 10 to Tab 45. And this is a document -- Inquiry Document 11 7000000370 and it's dated August 22nd, 1995. 12 I'm a little bit ahead of myself here but 13 it refers to -- this is prepared by you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as part of it there are a number 16 of statements. At least, were these statements part of 17 the document as prepared by you? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: There's a statement from Sergeant 22 Messenger, a statement by Captain Counsell dated August 23 18th, 1995 -- or, excuse me, a statement by -- by Captain 24 Howse, then a statement by Captain Willis on August 24th, 25 1995 and a memorandum dated August 23 by E.R. Leslie?
1281 A: Those -- those statements are not 2 part of the -- of the first document. 3 Q: Okay. The first document, your 4 report, is five (5) -- the first five (5) pages? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 7 the next exhibit. It's dated August 22nd, 1995. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1826. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1826: Document Number 7000370. 11 Memo from Captain Smith to 12 Captain Counsel re. 13 Ipperwash, August 25, 1995. 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that the 16 balance of the statements by Sergeant Messenger, Captain 17 Howse, the note by Mr. Leslie, and the statement of 18 Captain Willis be marked the next exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1827, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1827: Document Number 7000370. 22 Statements of Sgt. Messenger, 23 Captain Howse, Captain 24 Willis, August 1995. 25
1291 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And they're still -- 2 they're Inquiry Documents 7000370 as well, but they 3 should be treated separately. 4 THE WITNESS: Those -- those statements 5 are actually attachments to the document described in the 6 top left corner of each statement. What you see on the 7 first one by Sergeant Messenger, "Annex M to 1080-1 SPO." 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: I see that. 11 A: That's the -- 12 Q: And yours was Annex L. You -- 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: 1080-1, dated August 25th. I haven't 15 got what it was attached to. 16 And then lastly on this subject, if I 17 could take you to -- Tab 54. And this is Inquiry 18 Document 7000387. 19 And this document appears to have been 20 prepared by you. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And this appears to be a Use of Force 23 Incident Report? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it's with respect to the force
1301 used part -- particularly the pepper spray on July 29th? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And I would ask that be the next 4 Exhibit. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1928 YOUR HONOUR. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1828: Document number 7000387. 8 Letter re. Use of Force 9 Incident by W.D. Smith, 10 September 24, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And on paragraph -- under 14 observations, starting on page 2, the -- you report on 15 the uses of pepper spray, and in paragraph 7 the person 16 who appeared to have the allergic reaction? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And then made some recommendations? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Then if I could ask you to turn back 21 to Tab 37. And there's a Situation Report prepared by 22 you for the period August 1st and 2nd. It's Inquiry 23 document 7000129. 24 Well, this was prepared by Mr. Butters. 25 A: Major Butters, yes.
1311 Q: And Mr. Butters -- who is he, Major 2 Butters? 3 A: He was the -- at the time I think he 4 was the second in command at -- at London. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I think. 7 Q: And he refers to you, if you look at 8 page 3: 9 "Due to the ongoing LN requirements, 10 the LO should remain in place until 11 11 August. Advise." 12 And that shows a cop -- a copy having been 13 sent to you, Captain Smith, do you see that? 14 A: Yes, Hmm hmm -- 15 Q: And do you recall receiving this 16 document? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I'd ask that be the next 19 Exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-2829 Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1829: Document Number 7000129. 23 Situation Report number 28 24 with newspaper clippings, 25 August 01-02, 1995.
1321 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And at Tab 38, it's Inquiry Document 4 7000243 and it's Situation Report 29. 5 And again this appears to have been 6 prepared by Major Butters and a copy sent to you. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I would ask that this be the 9 next Exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1830 Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1830: Document Number 7000243. 13 Situation Report number 29, 14 August 02-03, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And you should find at Tab 39, the 18 last three (3) pages, if the gremlins haven't got us 19 again, Inquire document 7000120, which is a Situation 20 Report Number 30, dated for the period August 3rd to 21 August 4th, 1995. 22 A: I'm sorry, Tab 39? 23 Q: Tab 39 -- 24 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 39, is P-1831. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, but it's at the
1331 back of the Tab... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: I have a MPUIR. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Okay. Excuse me for a minute, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And that refers actually to -- excuse 14 me, it refers actually to Situation Report Number 29, but 15 this is also prepared by Captain Butters or Major Butters 16 and shows you receiving a copy? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I would like -- ask that that be 19 marked the next exhibit. We'll have to make an exhibit 20 copy at the lunch break. 21 THE REGISTRAR: What is the document 22 number again, please? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 7000120. 24 THE WITNESS: 120. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. P-1831, Your
1341 Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1831: Document Number 7000120. 4 Operation Maple Situation 5 Report number 30, Detachment 6 London, August 04, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Then at Tab 40 there's a copy of 10 Exhibit P-416. And this is a document you didn't see but 11 it refers to a meeting, if you look at the third 12 paragraph down: 13 "On Friday, August 4, '95, Captain Doug 14 Smith of the Military is going onto the 15 Base with the cooperation of the 16 occupiers to show them how to work the 17 hydro and water systems. They will 18 then put up danger signs indicating 19 unexploded ammunition and provide a 20 safety talk on how people should react 21 if they think they've found live ammo. 22 Basically, don't touch and call for 23 help. They are also going to put up 24 4x8 plywood sheets on the beach to warn 25 boaters who may anchor off site and
1351 wander onto Military property." 2 What did you do during this period of 3 time? Did -- did you have -- did you go onto the 4 Military Base and meet with the occupiers? 5 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Can you just tell us a little bit 7 about what role you played as liaison officer the early 8 part of August? 9 A: So my primary role as -- as liaison 10 officer was to keep the channels of communication open 11 between the occupiers and the -- and the Military, and to 12 provide the occupiers with any information that I could 13 on how to actually manage the equipments and the 14 materials and the plant infrastructure on the Base 15 without causing it to get damaged or them to hurt 16 themselves. 17 Q: And -- and that carried on during -- 18 for a period of time in August? 19 A: Yes, it did. 20 Q: And the -- at Tab 42 you should have 21 Inquiry Document 7000393 and it's a situation report 22 August 9th to 10th and it's by M.S. Campbell, but it 23 shows that you're one (1) of the recipients along with 24 Captain Howse. 25 And it -- the reference is, in paragraph
1361 1(a): 2 "Continuation of LO duties. It is 3 recommended that Captain Smith continue 4 to conduct liaison officer duties on a 5 weekly basis and be accompanied by the 6 detachment Ops and Training Master 7 Warrant Officer." 8 Is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "His duties should include visits to 11 the KSB, Kettle and Stoney Point Band, 12 Stoney Point Group and OPP. This will 13 provide the necessary continuity but 14 can only be possible if this situation 15 stabilizes. And (b), patrols continue 16 by day and night. There's nothing to 17 report with respect to Native 18 activity." 19 And the patrols are -- refer to patrols on 20 the perimeter, on the highways? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Army Camp Road and -- 23 A: Patrols being conducted out of London 24 at that point. 25 Q: And the patrols were not inside the
1371 Camp but on Highway 21, Outer Drive, Matheson Drive, and 2 Army Camp Road? 3 A: This is correct. 4 Q: And so did you continue as liaison 5 officer after August the 10th? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I would ask that this be the next 8 exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1832, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1832: Document Number 7000393. 12 Situation Report number 36, 13 August 10, 1995. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Then at Tab 56 there's a copy of 17 Inquiry Document 7000423. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And this refers to a JIC meeting in 22 London on August the 10th, 1995, and this appears to be a 23 Military document. And did you see a -- did you attend 24 at the meeting of the JIC on August the 10th, 1995? 25 A: I don't think I was at this one.
1381 Q: Did you -- do you recall receiving a 2 copy of this document? 3 A: I recall the content, I don't 4 remember the piece of paper. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: I don't remember physically having 7 this in my hand but -- 8 Q: But you recall the content? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it's dealing with, among other 11 things, what happens with the Camp if DND divests itself? 12 A: I'm sorry? 13 Q: For example, on page 2, 4(b) -- 14 excuse me. It's relating to what's going to happen. 15 Okay. Under "Current situation" on page 2, "Concerns, 16 PIRS," can you tell me what PIRS refers to? 17 A: It's an acronym for priority 18 intelligence requirement. 19 Q: Okay. And I would ask that this 20 document be the next exhibit, Commissioner? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1833, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1833: Document Number 7000423. G2 24 Points: Native Activism and 25 Camp Ipperwash (undated).
1391 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And back to Tab 43, this is Inquiry 4 Document 7000657. And again, it's in situation report 5 number 37 for the period August 10th and 11th, with a 6 copy shown to you. And do you recall receiving a copy of 7 this, Mr. Smith? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I would ask that this be the next 10 exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1834, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1834: Document number 7000657. 14 Situation Report number 37, 15 August 10-11, 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And it refers to, among other things, 19 in 1(b): 20 "Arrange Safety Briefing?" 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did you participate in that briefing? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And at the next tab, Tab 44, there's 25 a situation report for the period August 13 to 14, again
1401 by Lieutenant Colonel Campbell, Inquiry Document 7000358. 2 And a copy is shown as having been provided to you. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I would ask this be the next 5 exhibit? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1835, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1835: Document Number 7000358. 9 Situation Report number 38, 10 August 13-14, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And then in item 1(d): 14 "The LOTM returned to Toronto today. 15 If needed the OPP will be contacting 16 the detachment COMB direction as 17 incidents occur." 18 Do you know what -- 19 A: Sorry, you lost me. 20 Q: At page -- at the -- on the first 21 page, paragraph 1(d)? 22 A: Oh, okay. 23 Q: I take it that refers to you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what does that mean?
1411 A: It means I was back at Toronto -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- as the Base Security Officer 4 there. 5 Q: And then: 6 "If needed the OPP will be contacting 7 Det Com" 8 What's that mean? 9 A: Detachment Commander. 10 Q: Okay. 11 "Direction as incidents occur." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So as of August 16th -- or August 14 14th you were returning to Toronto? 15 A: I was working out of Toronto at that 16 point. That's right. 17 Q: Then at Tab 47, it's Inquiry Document 18 7000251. And this is a report dated September 5th, 1995, 19 done by a different Captain -- a different Smith, it's 20 Captain Ashford-Smith. And do you recall seeing this 21 document? 22 A: I remember this, the information, 23 yes. 24 Q: And you were to, on page 1: 25 "CFB Toronto will provide Captain W.D.
1421 Smith, CFB Toronto B secure officer as 2 the liaison officer to the Forest OPP." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in fact, you -- and you became 5 the liaison officer again? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And at page 2, item 4: 8 "Liaison officers report to Land Forces 9 Central Area Headquarters to be issued 10 a mobile phone." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And in paragraph 6(a): 13 "Forest OPP have asked for Captain 14 Smith by name because of his past 15 experience and rapport with the Stoney 16 Point Group and Kettle and Stoney Point 17 Band." 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Were you aware of that until -- 20 A: I was. 21 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 22 the next Exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1836, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1836: Document Number 7000251. Op
1431 Summary of September 3-5, 2 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And at Tab 48, there's Inquiry 6 Document 700260 and it's a situation report, again dated 7 September 5th, 1995 and appears to have been sent by 8 London to, among other things, Toronto and Ottawa. 9 And it notes that: 10 "During the early evening on Monday the 11 4th September '95 an unknown number of 12 Natives occupied Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park, as predicted by the OPP. It 14 should be noted that in doing so they 15 have also seized the pumping station 16 that supplies water to both the Park 17 and Camp. 18 3) Activity of own troops, perimeter 19 patrols have been ceased for the time 20 being. A plumber from Detachment 21 London who operates the plumbing house 22 has been held back by the Detachment 23 from attending his duties. As well, 24 Captain Smith, CFB Toronto, the 25 security officer has been tasked as a
1441 liaison officer to Force OPP and will 2 arrive on scene on September 6th, '95." 3 And then item 6: 4 "Staff action has commenced to provide 5 to vice and APC's to the OPP in 6 anticipation of a formal request from 7 the Solicitor General, but no vehicle 8 movement will take place until the task 9 is received from National Defence 10 headquarters." 11 And this is signed by Captain Batchelor, 12 B-A-T-C-H-E-L-O-R. And are you familiar with this 13 document, or at least its contents? 14 A: Yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would ask this be 16 the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1837 Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1837: Document Number 7000260. Op 20 Summary of Camp Ipperwash, 21 September 05, 1995. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And then at Tab 50 -- 49, excuse me, 25 it's Inquiry document 7000262, it's dated September 6th,
1451 1995 and, among other things, it reports on page -- Item 2 2, Native Activity: 3 "An undermined number of Natives 4 continue to occupy the Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park. Pumping station has 6 not resumed operation. The OPP report 7 hearing the firing of seventy-five (75) 8 to a hundred (100) rounds of small arms 9 ammunition on the night of 5 September 10 '95. In addition, on the night of 5 11 September '95, three (3) OPP cruisers 12 had rocks thrown at them when they 13 responded to a report of a fire near 14 the Provincial Park. 15 3. Activity of own troops, the OPP 16 have set up a roadblock on Army Camp 17 Road and are checking all vehicles 18 entering the area for liaison. Captain 19 Smith, B., security officer CFB 20 Toronto, reported to the Forest OPP to 21 assume Liaison officer duties." 22 And did you arrive in Forest on September 23 the 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that
1461 this be marked the next Exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1838 Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1838: Document Number 7000262. Op 5 Maple Summary of Camp 6 Ipperwash- Smith act as 7 liaison, September 06, 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And then I would ask that you turn to 11 Tab 46. And Tab 46 contains extracts from Exhibit P-426 12 and it's Inquiry document 1002419. And there's a 13 reference to you on page 61, Captain -- I mean Mr. Smith, 14 at 11:16 hours; do you see that, page 2? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And do you recall -- there are two 17 (2) entries, actually, relating to you on this page, 18 11:16 and 11:18. What, if anything, do you recall of 19 your discussions with John Carson on September the 6th? 20 A: We just had a discussion about the 21 situation he was in and we discussed what possible 22 support the Military could provide from the point of view 23 the various equipments, if he needed them. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: What type of equipments he could --
1471 the Military could possibly provide. 2 Q: And the -- among the equipment was 3 the -- was the discussion -- the armoured personnel 4 carriers discussed? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then at page 64, which is the 7 third page after the page you're at, at 16:16 hours, 8 there's a reference to you: 9 "Captain Doug Smith back to report to 10 John Carson. Smith confirmed Les Jewel 11 is running things at Park. They really 12 have no leadership anymore. Wants to 13 meet with Les Jewel possibly Friday. 14 Wondered if we wanted anything brought 15 up. John Carson advised him to touch 16 base with us before he attends meeting. 17 John Carson has really had no contact. 18 16:18, Captain Smith leaves." 19 And can you tell us what you did between 20 the morning meeting and the afternoon meeting, Mr. Smith? 21 A: The -- I think I went and met with 22 some people from the Kettle Point side -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- and just discussed the situation 25 at the Park and on the Base.
1481 Q: And then the meeting with Les Jewel 2 that -- that's referred to, or the reference to Les 3 Jewel, where did that come from? 4 Did you report to John Carson that Les 5 Jewel appears to be running things at the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And where did you get that 8 information from, sir? 9 A: That information came from 10 discussions with various Native reps. during the day? 11 Q: And people from Kettle and Stony 12 Point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did you indicate to the 15 individuals you spoke to that you wanted to have a 16 meeting with Les Jewel? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And was someone going to pass that 19 message back to Mr. Jewel? 20 A: I think they were going to try to, 21 yes. 22 Q: And on September the 6th did you hear 23 anything back? 24 A: No, not -- I don't -- didn't hear 25 anything on the 6th?
1491 Q: Not on the 6th? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Subsequent to the 6th? 4 A: About this? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: No. 7 Q: Now, I understand that you had cell 8 phone contact or you had cell phone numbers of 9 individuals who were at the Army Camp; is that correct? 10 In -- on September 6th you had the ability to talk to 11 people on the Army Camp, occupiers? 12 A: Well, I -- yes, I believe I had the - 13 - because I'd established some degree of a relationship 14 with the people in the Camp I could just drive up and 15 talk to them. 16 Q: And on September 6th did you do -- 17 did you either phone or attempt to talk to any other -- 18 any of the people on the Army Camp? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And who did you speak to? 21 A: I can't remember their names. They 22 were people down at the -- the people who were running 23 the -- the Base at the time. 24 Q: And was that the Mannings? Was it 25 Roderick George?
1501 A: Yes, yes, yes, the Mannings ring a 2 bell, yes. Some young -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- I should remember their names but 5 I -- 6 Q: I know it's a long time. 7 A: It is a long time ago, yeah. 8 Q: But there was Roderick George, Glenn 9 George. 10 A: It wasn't Glenn and I was dealing 11 mostly with -- with a couple of different ladies. 12 Q: And was Marcia Simon one of them? 13 A: Yeah, it could have been, yes. These 14 names are familiar, but. 15 Q: Okay. Can you tell us -- I 16 appreciate you can't recall the names but what was the 17 discussion you had on September 6th with these 18 individuals? 19 A: The status of the Base, the status of 20 the Park, what could or could not happen, what could be 21 done to possibly resolve the situation. 22 Q: And did you report that back to John 23 Carson? 24 A: Yes, when I went back and told them 25 they were at that quick two (2) minute meeting there,
1511 that we were going to try and get something going with 2 Les Jewel to see what we could do to negotiate it. 3 Q: And did Les Jewel come up with -- in 4 the conversation with the people you had at the Army 5 Camp; did his name come up? 6 A: I'm sure he did, yeah. 7 Q: But can you recall? 8 A: Do I specifically recall it? No. I 9 mean if I wrote it, it must have. 10 Q: And can you recall anything else you 11 did on September the 6th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, I would ask you to turn to Tab 14 50. It's Inquiry Document 7000503 and this appears to be 15 a log that covers the period September 9th to September 16 14th and it refers to Operation Panda. 17 Firstly, have you seen this document 18 before? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And your name appears on it in a few 21 places, or on page 1, item 3, Captain Smith. 22 Do you know what Operation Panda was? 23 A: Yes, I've heard the name. I just -- 24 I think it was the -- what did we call it, we flipped 25 over names from Op Maple to Op Panda --
1521 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- once this Base was closed down, if 3 I remember -- remember right. I'd have to check on that 4 one. 5 Q: And it appears that this refers to 6 what was going on from time to time within the military 7 in relation to the Park and the Camp? 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: But in any event, you haven't seen 10 this document? 11 A: No. 12 Q: At the next tab, Tab 51, there's 13 Inquiry Document 7000377, and it's a situation report 14 dated September 9th, 1995. 15 And have you seen this document before? 16 A: Yeah, I'm aware of the contents. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: Do I remember this specific document? 19 No. 20 Q: And there's a reference to you on 21 page 3, item 4(b). 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "Captain Smith began LN [liaison]..." 24 Is that what "LN" means? 25 A: Liaison, yes.
1531 Q: "...with Chief Superintendent Coles, 2 10 September at the Grand Bend. The 3 following was discussed: 4 1. Captain Smith will rebrief the 5 negotiating team on the need to 6 reinitiate visits to sewage lagoon and 7 water pump house on 12 September, '95." 8 Then: 9 "Chief of the Kettle and Stoney Point 10 Band will be contacted to reinitiate 11 talks on handover Camp Ipperwash. 12 3. Superintendent Coles requested 13 Captain Smith to work with Inspector 14 Carson and TRU Command to develop 15 contingent plans with respect to the 16 Provincial Park and other [I take it} 17 local areas." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And: 20 "Superintendent Coles requested to meet 21 with Lieutenant Colonel Campbell 22 soonest, suggest 12 September." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And was that -- were these items 25 discussed in your discussion with Chief Superintendent
1541 Coles? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I would ask that this be the next 4 exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1839, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1839: Document Number 7000377. Op 8 Panda, Smith to help with 9 water/sewage system, 10 September 10, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at Tab 53 is Inquiry Document 14 7000 -- 7000488. And have you seen this document before? 15 It appears to have been signed by you, actually, on the 16 third page. 17 A: Tab 53? 18 Q: 52, excuse me. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: And that was... 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And this -- what does this relate to, 23 Mr. Smith? 24 A: This summarizes some of the 25 equipments that the -- that the OPP was requesting to
1551 support Op Panda. 2 Q: Okay. And the -- and Op Panda was 3 the military name? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I would ask that this be marked the 6 next exhibit? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1840. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1840: Document Number 7000488. 10 Memo re. OPP request for SP 11 to Op Panda, September 10, 12 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And at Tab 53 there's a copy of 16 Inquiry Document 7000504. It's dated September 18th, 17 1995 and it -- in item number one (1): 18 "Meeting scheduled yesterday at 10:00 19 hours local. Captain Smith, MWO 20 Taylor, CE ref with aboriginals 21 occupying camp to arrange access to 22 check water and sewage systems did not 23 happen. Tensions high because crime 24 scene investigation by OPP, Provincial 25 and Special Investigation Unit, Native
1561 police and the Joint Investigation Team 2 was started today. Meeting scheduled 3 same time today. At reference Captain 4 Smith reports additional OPP support 5 requests will originate from the local 6 [something] at Forest within forty- 7 eight (48) hours." 8 And were you familiar with this -- the 9 content of this document? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I would ask this be the next Exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1841 Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1841: Document Number 7000504. Op 15 Panda, Smith does not go to 16 help with water system, 17 September 19, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And after September 19th, what role, 21 if any, did you play with respect to Camp Ipperwash? 22 A: After September 19th? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I think I was out. 25 Q: Pardon me?
1571 A: I think I was back to Toronto 2 permanently. 3 Q: Back to Toronto permanently. And... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: There's a -- sometime in September 8 did you have a discussion with a civilian mediator, or in 9 the fall of '95; do you recall that? 10 A: A civilian mediator? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: You mean Bob Antoine or Bruce Elijah? 13 Q: Apart from Bob Antoine and Bruce 14 Elijah? 15 A: I don't think so. 16 Q: And at Tab 55 there's a copy of 17 Inquiry document 1002996 and it's dated April 23, 1996. 18 It's a letter from the SIU and it's addressed to Canadian 19 Forces School of Intelligence Security to your attention. 20 Did you receive a copy of this letter? 21 A: I did not. 22 Q: You did not? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And did you have any -- ever have any 25 discussions with the SIU?
1581 A: About this letter? 2 Q: About this letter, about the 3 incidents at -- what happened at Ipperwash? 4 A: I never discussed this letter with 5 the SIU. 6 Q: Well you didn't receive the letter -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- but did you have any discussions 9 with the SIU? 10 A: I did, yes. 11 Q: You did? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Thank you. Now, before I close, is 14 there anything else you wish to add. 15 A: No. Thank you. 16 Q: Okay. Those are my questions, 17 Commissioner. One (1) of the time constraints we have, 18 and that's why I went a little longer, is Mr. Smith has 19 to catch a plane back to Ottawa at 8:00 tonight. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From where? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: From Toronto. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 23 where we are with our examinations. Does anybody have 24 any questions for Mr. Smith? Please indicate in the 25 usual way.
1591 Okay. We have an order here, I think the 2 OPPA is first. 3 Ms. Jones, how long might you be? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: About an hour and a 5 half. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Jones, an hour and 7 a half for the OPPA. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. McAleer, 9 I think you're next. 10 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: At the present, 11 twenty (20) minutes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. McAleer, twenty 13 (20) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 15 that would make -- yes, I'm sorry, on behalf of Ms. 16 Hutton, yes, sir? 17 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: About five (5) or ten 18 (10) minutes. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Goodman, on 20 behalf of Ms. Hutton, five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 22 Rosenthal...? 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About half an hour. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal, on 25 behalf of the Aazhoodena and George Family Group, thirty
1601 (30) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir? 3 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Twenty (20) minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 5 minutes. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Neil, on behalf of 7 the Residents of Aazhoodena, twenty (20) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 9 George...? 10 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I will reserve Five 11 (5) minutes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. George, on behalf 13 of Kettle and Stony Point First Nations and Chiefs of 14 Ontario, five (5) minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, and Mr. 16 Roy...? 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) 18 minutes, sir. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Roy, on behalf 20 of ALST, ten (10) to fifteen (15) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Culter, 22 can you do a quick calculation, just give us a rough idea 23 what the total might be. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1611 MS. REBECCA CUTLER: About three (3) 2 hours and ten (10) minutes at the top end. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, what 4 if we take a shorter lunch hour. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we try 7 to get done by 5:00 at the latest. I mean even that 8 would cut it very close. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So I suggest we 10 perhaps... 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sometimes 12 these estimates collapse, lawyers sometimes estimate a 13 little longer than they really need, but I think we could 14 do it. If we adjourn from now until two o'clock would 15 that give -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I know 18 it gives some folks who have to go out to get lunch a 19 shorter time to get it, but let's adjourn from now until 20 two o'clock. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. I appreciate -- 22 we all appreciate that it -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We all have 24 to hurry a bit. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- that it is
1621 difficult for counsel, but... 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll 3 adjourn for lunch now and reconvene at two o'clock. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 1:23 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 2:04 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I just 13 had one (1) more question that I wanted to ask to clear 14 something up. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: During July 1995, Mr. Smith, once you 19 were assigned to Ipperwash, did you keep a notebook, a 20 separate notebook? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: And did the situation reports serve 23 the purpose of a notebook? 24 A: It did, yes. 25 Q: Because you reported in the situation
1631 reports, the things -- 2 A: They were -- 3 Q: -- that happened that day. 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 Thank you, Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 Yes, Ms. Jones...? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Smith. 15 A: Good afternoon. 16 Q: My name's is Karen Jones, I'm one of 17 the lawyers who represents the Ontario Provincial Police 18 Association. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: I hadn't realized earlier, before Mr. 21 Millar's announcement, of your time constraints, and so I 22 will compress and go as quickly as I can. I realize that 23 you have to get out here. 24 A: I appreciate that, thank you. 25 Q: Yes. I'm going to be referring to
1641 some of the documents that Mr. Millar took you through. 2 There were some points that were mentioned of those 3 documents that -- that I think it might be helpful to get 4 a little more information on, so I'm really going to 5 focus on that. 6 But I wanted to start off with just 7 getting a better sense from you about when you came onto 8 the Base in your role as Commander at the end of June 9 1995, to see if we could get a little bit more 10 information about the situation that was taking place on 11 the Base at the time and your knowledge of incidents that 12 had occurred prior to your coming. 13 I take it from your evidence that you 14 would have had an opportunity to look at, for example, 15 information from military intelligence reports when you 16 got to the Base. 17 A: I would have seen some of them, yes. 18 Q: Yes. I also take it that there would 19 have been reports that would have been created by the 20 Military Police when they were on doing their daily 21 patrols. 22 A: Yes, they were created at the Base. 23 Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And there would also have been 25 reports that were kept from observations made at the
1651 Observation Post? 2 A: Those would have been integrated into 3 the previous ones, but yes. 4 Q: Okay. And I wanted to start off just 5 to give you a reference point, referring you to Tab 2 in 6 your book of documents, which is now an exhibit, 1796, 7 and it is Document 7000313. 8 And as I understand from your evidence, 9 this likely would have been the first situation report 10 that you created when you got to the Base? 11 A: Yes, that's true. 12 Q: And I wanted to ask you a few 13 questions about some of the information that you have in 14 terms of your paragraph 1, which is, "The Native 15 Elements." 16 I take it that when you first got to the 17 Base the situation between the Military and the occupiers 18 was fairly tense? 19 A: I think that's a good way to describe 20 it. 21 Q: It's a fair way to put it. You have 22 mentioned in your first paragraph that there was an 23 allegation about alleged tire slashing and you also 24 mentioned about the OPP coming into the area of 'B' Camp. 25 And I understand from looking at this
1661 document and some -- from some other documents, that 2 there were a number of camps that the occupiers had set 3 up. 4 A: They were on different sites of the 5 Base, yes. 6 Q: On different sites. And can you tell 7 us, if you recall, did you, in your role as Commander and 8 based on the information you got, have any particular 9 concerns about any of the Camps or the people that were 10 in the Camps? 11 A: In what context; what they were doing 12 at the site of their camp or...? 13 Q: What they were doing at the -- at the 14 site of the Camps or what they were doing in relation to 15 the Military Police or other personnel on the Base? 16 A: Well, I had concerns on -- based on 17 what activity had gone on in the past. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: What they were doing in the actual 20 camps, I -- it was not my immediate concern. 21 Q: Okay. And in terms of the prior 22 activity that had gone on, I take it that when you first 23 came to the Base and you were reviewing materials and you 24 would have got briefings, did you obtain information 25 about sounds of gunfire that had been heard at the Base
1671 coming from the occupiers between 1993 and when you 2 arrived at the end of June '95? 3 A: There were, you know, intermittent 4 reports of sounds of gunfire -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- occurring on the Base from when 7 this all started. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I believe that's why it was created 10 as a no fly zone -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- way back when. 13 Q: And do you recall receiving or 14 hearing about reports of shotgun or high-powered rifle 15 fire? 16 A: These were talked about; I -- I don't 17 remember any specific reports of shotgun or rifle fire. 18 Q: Okay. Do you recall hearing about 19 reports of automatic gunfire or hearing about tracer 20 lights being seen? 21 A: No, not at the time. 22 Q: Okay. Did you recall hearing about 23 vehicles that had been shot at by the occupiers on one 24 (1) or more occasions? 25 A: There were -- there were unconfirmed
1681 reports of this. We didn't have any vehicles with holes 2 in them so I think they remained unconfirmed. 3 Q: Okay. Did you recall hearing reports 4 about vehicles that had been damaged by being rammed into 5 by a bus or cars driven by the occupiers? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you -- did you recall hearing of 8 vehicles that had -- military police vehicles that had 9 been run off the road by...? 10 A: I don't remember any being run off 11 the road. 12 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 13 you heard reports from the Military Police about 14 observing the occupiers with guns? 15 A: With guns actually in hand? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether or 19 not you would have seen any pictures from the period 20 between 1993 and 1995 of occupiers having a gun or guns? 21 A: If there were pictures of that I'm 22 sure they would have been available in the files. I 23 didn't see any. 24 Q: Okay. In your situation report at 25 Tab 2, which is Exhibit 1796, you refer there to seeing
1691 some -- six (6) of the occupiers wearing Mohawk Warrior 2 Society style multi-coloured war paint. 3 And I notice in your incident reports 4 there are a few references to Mohawk Warrior Society from 5 time to time and I wondered if you could assist us in 6 terms of what you mean by that, or for you what the 7 connotations of the Mohawk Warrior Society were? 8 A: The -- I'm not an expert by any 9 stretch of the imagination on the Mohawk Warrior Society, 10 but as I understand it the Mohawk Warrior Society was a 11 society that was, I think, instrumental in -- or 12 predominant in -- in Oka, so they used the -- and they 13 were classically or traditionally dressed in -- in 14 camouflage clothing. 15 Q: Okay. And did you or other persons 16 at the Base have concerns during particularly the summer 17 of 1995 about people being on the Base with the occupiers 18 who may have had contacts or been part of Warrior 19 Societies? 20 A: Yes, we had some concerns about that. 21 Q: Okay. And can you tell us about 22 those concerns? First of all, if you could start out, 23 what did you know about people who were outsiders who 24 were on the Base with the occupiers? 25 A: I'm sorry, people that were outside
1701 of...? 2 Q: Outsiders, people who weren't from 3 Kettle and Stony Point originally. 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: You have some mention, for example, 6 in your incident reports about Jewels? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you have information that there 9 were more people who were staying at this Base, for 10 example, than the Jewels who had -- the way it's been -- 11 been talked about at the Inquiry, essentially, often is 12 that many of the people who were at this Base were 13 originally from Kettle and Stoney Point and had moved 14 there and called themselves Stoney Pointers? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And we've also heard some evidence, 17 particularly over the summer of 1995, more people were 18 seen coming to this Base and joining those occupiers, for 19 example, who were from the States, who were from other 20 areas. 21 Did you have knowledge of that? 22 A: We had some -- some reporting on 23 that, yes. 24 Q: And was that a concern to you? 25 A: Yes, it was.
1711 Q: And why was that? 2 A: Because we believed that some of 3 these people may very well have been from the -- from the 4 MWS and providing, you know, outside influence which 5 would further complicate an already complicated 6 situation. 7 Q: Okay. You also have in your note at 8 Tab 2, again, Exhibit 1796, talking about June 29th, 1995 9 at approximately 23:35 hours: 10 "Stoney Point group highly probable 11 fire bombed the gas hut." 12 Were you aware of other circumstances 13 where property had been destroyed on this Base between 14 '93 and '95? 15 A: Oh, I'm sure there was some. I think 16 the gas hut had been -- had been fire bombed a couple of 17 times. 18 Q: And in your incident -- sorry, in 19 your report, and I'm looking at the second page of your 20 report, and I'm looking particularly at -- under point 3, 21 "Administration." 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You talk there about: 24 "All military police personnel tasked 25 to Operation Maple must be provided
1721 with undershirt style soft body 2 armour." 3 And you talked about that as being an 4 option, I think, to provide protection without a visible 5 escalation of force that one might get with a military 6 style frag vest? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you tell us what your concerns 9 were that would justify the Military Police moving to 10 wearing soft body armour? 11 A: Well, at that point in the evolution 12 of military policing overall, military police, unlike 13 civilian counterparts, we're not issued body armour out 14 of hand, we patrol bases without it. 15 Given that we were now in a situation, 16 working in part with the OPP, and in a situation where we 17 were -- actually had the potential of being in -- in 18 conflict with other people, I thought it wise to try to 19 adopt at least some -- some standard common with the 20 civilian police forces. 21 Q: Okay. I then wanted to ask you if 22 you would please turn to Tab 3 of your book of documents, 23 and this is Exhibit 1797. 24 And there were a couple of things I wanted 25 to ask you. We have another copy of the same document.
1731 And, Mr. Commissioner, for your information it's Inquiry 2 Document number 7000239 and I have a -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually, I put a copy 4 on your desk, Commissioner. There should be -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I didn't 6 realize that's what it was, right. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe that should 8 be the one. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The one I 10 have is 7000120. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we'll get -- I - 12 - it's there somewhere but perhaps they've got -- perhaps 13 we we'll give the Commissioner another one. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: And perhaps we could 15 give Mr. Smith one as well. Thank you. Do you have one 16 already? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: As I said, this document is a 20 photocopy of the document that you have at Tab 3, Exhibit 21 1797, but for the fact you'll see on page 2 that under 22 the section that says, "Own situation." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Some of the areas that are in the 25 binder that had been blanked out have not been blanked
1741 out on this document. And so I wanted to ask you a 2 couple of questions about those points. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps if I might, 4 Commissioner, we have used the redacted copies to -- in 5 the book and it was my understanding that those were the 6 ones we were to use, but I understand Mr. Penner has no 7 concerns about this document. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: And this -- just to be 9 clear, Mr. Commissioner, this document was also in the 10 document database as well. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 12 unredacted one? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: The unredacted one was 14 also in the document database. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I know that. I wasn't 17 -- I was just trying to explain why we use the redacted 18 one. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah, yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Okay. Mr. Penner -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: And -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- just 24 a minute, Ms. Jones, Mr. Penner wants to say something. 25 Yes, sir?
1751 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. GARY PENNER: I appreciate that both 4 of these documents come from the Inquiry's document 5 database. The difficulty for this Witness is that this 6 particular one has not been stamped 'unclassified'. The 7 one that was produced in the binder is an unclassified 8 document. 9 So as such, Mr. Smith isn't in a position 10 to speak to those paragraphs that appear in this document 11 because it's not an unclassified document. It would put 12 him in jeopardy. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones 14 had indicated you didn't have any objection to using this 15 document. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I thought that was... 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I 18 gather -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I had understood that 20 there wasn't an issue with that either. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: In addition of course, 23 Mr. Commissioner, I was going to refer to both points, 24 4(a) and 4(b) in the document which others have already 25 given evidence about.
1761 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In the 2 unredacted version? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well then 5 are you going to be referring to the part that has been 6 redacted? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 9 going to also refer to the part that -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: No. I was looking at 11 the parts -- the parts in this document. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That have 13 already been referred to? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: That have not been 15 referred to previously. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So then 17 where does that leave the Witness? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Frankly, I don't know 19 where it leaves the Witness in the sense of -- this 20 document, 7000239, was part of the material that we 21 received from Mr. Penner, the Department of National 22 Defence. 23 Now, just out of an abundance of caution, 24 we had used redacted versions because of discussions Mr. 25 Penner and Ms. Vella had had. I presume that that's why
1771 we done that. 2 This document is part of the database. 3 The information -- well, it's -- I don't know if Mr. 4 Penner is saying that this Witness cannot answer the 5 question based on this document or not. 6 I had just -- when I said that I didn't 7 think there was a problem, I didn't appreciate this 8 problem of classified/unclassified, that it just raised. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- yes, 10 Mr. Penner? What is your position with respect -- 11 MR. GARY PENNER: Well just to clarify 12 it. I appreciate that other witnesses have already 13 spoken to this, but they don't find themselves in the 14 same position as Mr. Smith who has a -- although he's now 15 retired, is still subject to certain limitations because 16 of his position with the Department of -- with the 17 Canadian Forces. And he's still subject to sanction in 18 various other matters. 19 So we know from previous experience and 20 previous conversations I've had with Ms. Vella, that 21 there are some documents that appear in the database, the 22 source of which is uncertain, and some which appeared in 23 the database inadvertently that should have never 24 appeared there because they came from documents that were 25 produced during the discovery process in the George
1781 litigation. 2 This particular version of this document, 3 I have no idea where it comes from other than it 4 originates initially with DND. And so while others may 5 have spoken to it, I'm saying from -- for the -- from the 6 point of view of Mr. Smith, he shouldn't be asked 7 questions with respect to matters that don't appear in 8 the unclassified version. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This document actually 10 came from the 7 million series of documents, are the 11 documents we received from Mr. Penner's office from the 12 Department of National Defence. 13 So this particular -- there are -- there 14 are some issues with respect to other documents. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 16 to go there. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But this document came 18 from the Department of National Defence. Now in 19 fairness, and I think My Friend Ms. Jones misspoke 20 herself, no one has spoken about (b) -- 4(b) nor 4(a), in 21 particular. 22 But this document was produced to the 23 Commission by the Department of National Defence. If Mr. 24 Penner said that it shouldn't have been or only the 25 redacted version should have been, then --
1791 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should 2 only use that version. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But I'm -- I'm not 4 certain that that's the position he's taking. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 6 think it is. But perhaps you better say so. 7 Your position is that the redacted version 8 is the version that we should be using, not the 9 unredacted? 10 MR. GARY PENNER: Both versions have 11 redactions; one (1) is unclassified and has that stamp on 12 it; the other one is not unclassified. 13 So the redactions are not the same. I 14 can't account for the unclassified version and how it 15 came to be in the document database. 16 I take Mr. Miller at his word that if it's 17 a part of the 7 million series, that it came from the 18 Department of Justice. But that doesn't resolve the 19 problem for Mr. Smith which is that he should only be 20 asked questions with respect to unclassified versions of 21 these documents, just for his own protection, legal 22 protection. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we do have a 24 provision in our rules that if something gets in the 25 database inadvertently that shouldn't be there then we
1801 take it out of the database. 2 So if -- if Mr. Penner is telling us that 3 this Witness cannot, because of his oaths of secrecy as a 4 -- as an officer of the Canadian Armed Forces, can't 5 answer a question with respect to this document then -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless it's 7 unclassified -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- unless it's unclass 9 and -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and this 11 isn't. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- this -- and Mr. 13 Penner says this isn't, then I don't think that in my 14 respectful submission he should be ordered to break his 15 oath. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you 17 cross-examine him without making reference to the -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah, and -- and just 19 to be clear, Mr. Commissioner, I did want to note that 20 there has been some extensive evidence given at this 21 Inquiry, albeit near the start of the Inquiry sometime 22 ago about a road barrier being put up with a -- into the 23 built-up area. 24 And the allegation, you may have recalled, 25 was that a barrier was put up and there was no lights and
1811 it was not visible and because one (1) or more of the 2 occupiers consider that to be a hazard a confrontation 3 ensued. And the allegation of course was that the 4 actions of the Military, in putting up that kind of a 5 barrier, had been one that led to a confrontation. 6 It seemed to me quite frankly, given that 7 it might -- and this document has already -- has already 8 been referred to in the evidence of Glenn George. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 10 perhaps you can ask the question without referring to 11 the -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- specific 14 document. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: I understand, Mr. Smith, as part of 19 the steps that were taken in order to ensure the safety 20 of the Military Police, that over the course of the 21 summer of 1995 that patrols were no longer made of range 22 areas or areas outside of the built-up area? 23 A: That's true. 24 Q: And I also understand, again as part 25 of the protection of the military personnel on the Base,
1821 that steps were taken to try and limit access into the 2 built-up area by occupiers? 3 A: That is true. 4 Q: And I understand that part of those 5 efforts included setting up a road block or a road 6 barrier to the entrance to the built-up area? 7 A: That is true. 8 Q: And I further understand that, that 9 barrier was one which would have been illuminated, that 10 has been lit up at night so it could be seen? 11 A: It was illuminated, yes. 12 Q: And that there were high visibility 13 signs -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- by the barrier? And can you give 16 us some assistance, whether during the period between 17 1993 and 1995, and in particular closer to 19 -- the 18 summer of 1995, whether or not you knew of reports that 19 buildings in the built-up area had been shot at by the 20 occupiers or had been -- there had been shots in that 21 area? 22 A: There were -- there was talk of this, 23 but again we didn't have any buildings with actual bullet 24 holes in them -- 25 Q: Okay.
1831 A: -- that we ever found, so. 2 Q: Okay. And just to go back to the 3 road barrier that I -- that I referred to a little bit 4 earlier, can you assist us in terms of where that barrier 5 was located? 6 A: It was on the -- if I could flip up 7 the map there? 8 The other map, please. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: So it would have been right, give or 13 take, somewhere right down on that road. 14 Q: And I understand that -- 15 A: Or about -- 16 Q: -- that road is called Strand Road; 17 is that right? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Could have been? 20 A: Could have been. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's a road that runs 22 parallel to Highway 21 just on the inside of there. 23 THE WITNESS: It's on the inside of the - 24 - of the Base running parallel to 21, that is correct. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And this is P-40 up on
1841 the screen. And the location that you pointed out -- I'm 2 sorry to -- just to make it clear, is just east of where 3 the hospital and the Army -- your headquarters were for 4 the Military Police? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: And can you tell us during the summer 10 of 1995, as a result of concerns about the safety of 11 personnel in the built-up area, whether or not buildings 12 were sandbagged on the interior of some of the buildings? 13 A: They were. 14 Q: Okay. You have in a couple of your 15 incident reports -- and I first wanted to ask you to turn 16 to Tab 12 of your binder, which is a situation report and 17 this is Exhibit number P-1807. And I specifically wanted 18 to take you to your 2(c) where you indicate that at: 19 "Approximately 10:30 hours on July 7th, 20 1995, a member of Kettle Point Stoney 21 Band Police Force attended this office 22 and reported the following; 23 confirmation that there are weapons in 24 the training area. Types and numbers 25 remain unknown."
1851 Was that a conversation that you had, Mr. 2 Smith -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- with the member of the police? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: And what did you take from that 7 information? 8 Was that -- was that -- was that report 9 news to you? 10 Did you have a view that there were guns 11 in that area already? 12 A: We had a strong suspicion so this is 13 confirmation that we were probably right. 14 Q: Okay. And, similarly, Mr. Millar 15 took you to Tab 33 which is Exhibit P-275. And if I can 16 ask you to turn to page 3 of that document under the 17 section headed, "confidential". 18 It indicates that: 19 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah conducted 20 extensive negotiations." 21 And this is with reference to what 22 happened on July 29th when the built-up area was taken 23 over by the occupiers. 24 A: So this is during the occupation, 25 yes.
1861 Q: During the occupation. And you'll 2 see at that page under the second point under (j) that: 3 "The Stoney Point group was armed." 4 And you have: 5 "OPP confirms this." 6 And just so you're aware, Mr. Smith, when 7 Mr. Elijah was giving evidence he denied ever saying 8 that. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Can you -- would you have written 11 this down unless he had told you that? 12 A: I don't think so. 13 Q: Okay. And you also have a reference 14 to meeting with the Kettle and Stoney Point Band Council 15 in one of your incident reports and being told about 16 weapons on the Base in the hands of the occupiers as 17 well? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And as a result of information that 20 the Military had and the information that you had from 21 these other sources, what was your view in July of 1995 22 as to the presence of guns in the Base in the hands of 23 the occupiers? 24 A: We suspected that they had them. 25 Q: Okay. You've spoken a little bit
1871 about when you first came to the Base, part of your job 2 involved developing links or liaises with different 3 groups who were involved in or interested in the Base. 4 You've talked, for example, about making 5 attempts to meet with the Kettle and Stony Point Band 6 Council and developed linkages there. You've talked 7 about meeting with the OPP and starting a relationship 8 with the OPP. 9 And one of the things that I didn't hear 10 you mention was speaking to the occupiers or developing a 11 relationship with the occupiers and having discussions 12 with them. 13 Did that occur at all during the period of 14 time between June of 1995 when you first got to the Base 15 and after the Base was taken over on July 29th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you tell us about what 18 conversations or what kind of interactions you had with 19 the occupiers during that time? 20 A: The -- most of my conversations, in 21 fact I think all my conversations with the occupiers 22 occurred after the Base was occupied -- 23 Q: After July 29th? 24 A: -- as opposed to prior. 25 Q: Okay.
1881 A: The -- and all those discussions 2 focussed around how to manage the equipments and what we 3 were going to do about trying to -- to sort out the 4 safety of the Base and get rid of the UXO and operate the 5 equipments on the Base. 6 Q: Okay. Did you make attempts, between 7 June of 1995 when you arrived and July 29th when the 8 occupation of the built-up area took place, to have 9 communication with the occupiers or to open some 10 discussions with them? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you tell us about those 13 attempts? 14 A: Those attempts were predominately 15 through the Band Council initially and then Bob and 16 Bruce, Bob Antoine and then Bruce Elijah. 17 Q: Okay. Did you make attempts or did 18 you 19 -- to talk directly to the occupiers without an 20 intermediary? 21 A: Without which? 22 Q: Without an intermediary? 23 A: The -- no, because I didn't know they 24 were, per se, on the Base. 25 Q: Pardon me?
1891 A: I didn't know where they were, per 2 se, on the Base. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And we had some significant concerns 5 that to just drive into the Base directly would lead to 6 some degree of confrontation. 7 Q: Okay. Because it was during this 8 period of time that essentially the military had -- had 9 withdrawn to the built-up area. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And wasn't going out into the 12 training areas or other areas of the Base? 13 A: That is correct. 14 Q: Okay. And you also were asked some 15 questions about the plan when you arrived. And as I 16 understood it, the plan involved, in part, removing the 17 recoverable assets from the Base. And there was a 18 deadline given and I understand it changed from time to 19 time between the end of July and early August. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Could you tell us, though, what was - 22 - what was going to happen once the recoverable assets 23 were removed from the Base? What was the greater plan at 24 that point in time? 25 A: The greater plan, once -- once we got
1901 the recoverable assets off the Base, was get the Base 2 cleaned up and then effect an orderly handover of the 3 Base to the Band. 4 Q: Okay. And when you talk about clean 5 up the Base, that is the environmental clean-up -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that was going to be done by M & M 8 Dillon; is that right? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Okay. I then wanted to ask you a 11 couple of questions about your interactions with Bruce 12 Elijah and Bob Antoine. You were asked some questions by 13 Mr. Millar about why you chose those two (2) to act as 14 mediators and/or facilitators or trainers for the 15 Military personnel. 16 And I take it from your answer you had 17 gotten some information from somewhere that they may have 18 some expertise in that area. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. We heard some evidence from 21 Bruce Elijah in March of 2005 that -- in which he said 22 that after 200 -- sorry, after 1993, but before the 23 takeover of the built-up area in the summer of 1995, he 24 had had a number of conversations with the occupiers, 25 some of which included plans to take over the built-up
1911 area and how to do that. Were you aware that he had been 2 having those conversations? 3 A: No, I was not. 4 Q: Okay. He also told us that he had 5 provided his advice and some -- to the occupiers about 6 taking over Ipperwash Park. 7 Did you know that he had had those 8 conversations with the occupiers? 9 A: No. 10 Q: He also told the Commissioner that he 11 had provided the occupiers with some advice in terms of 12 taking over the built-up area of the Base in terms of 13 using -- as to get the grandmas and the children to do it 14 because they won't know how to deal with that. 15 Were you aware of that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Had you known about Bruce Elijah's 18 involvement with the occupiers prior to the summer of 19 1995 and that kind of advice he was giving would you have 20 considered him an appropriate person? 21 A: So now you're telling me he was 22 working as a double -- a double agent effectively? 23 Q: I'm -- I'm -- all I can tell you is 24 the evidence that he gave at the Commission about his 25 contacts prior and I'm asking you, had you known that he
1921 was in that position and giving that advice. 2 Would you have considered him to be an 3 appropriate person to be acting as the go-between, 4 between you and the occupiers? 5 A: No, that -- no... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I then wanted to ask you a few 10 questions, Mr. Smith, about the takeover of the built-up 11 area on July 29th, 1995. We've heard some evidence from 12 occupiers who were there during that period of time but 13 we haven't heard from any military personnel who were 14 there at the time. 15 And in particular I wondered if I can 16 refer you to Tab, I believe it is 39 of your book and 17 this is Inquiry Document 7000244 and Exhibit 1825. 18 And this is the Military Police Unusual 19 Incident Report that I understand you created after the 20 incident. Are you lost? Are you looking -- are we 21 looking at the same document? 22 A: Document 39? 23 Q: I have it in my book -- 24 A: Tab... 25 Q: -- as Tab 39 but maybe we can check.
1931 Do you want to check your Tab 40? 39? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: This one's not my document. 6 Q: Okay. I'm sorry. I understand that 7 this was something -- that this military police Unusual 8 Incident Report was based on information that you 9 provided -- 10 A: It would have been, yes, -- 11 Q: -- did I get that right? 12 A: -- but it's not. I didn't write this 13 one (1). 14 Q: Okay. Can I -- what I would like to 15 do is take you through some of the points in this and see 16 if you can walk us through a little more clearly or a 17 little more -- in a little more detail about what 18 happened that day. 19 And again the context is we've already 20 heard evidence from some of the occupiers who were there 21 and there were some allegations made about the conduct of 22 the Military during that time. 23 And as I understand from your evidence 24 before, Mr. Miller, that the initial contact that was 25 made was a yellow school bus that crashed through the
1941 north access gate of Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I understand from -- that -- that 4 simultaneously a large number and I think you have -- it 5 says here about a hundred (100) males, females, and 6 children came in through other areas -- 7 A: Yeah -- 8 Q: -- and by lifting the barrier at the 9 main gate? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And looking at page 2 of the document 12 it goes on to talk about as I understand the next 13 significant incident that happened was a school bus, the 14 school bus went to the drill hall and rammed the main 15 cargo doors and was partially into the building? 16 A: Okay. Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And I understand from reviewing this 18 document that there were a small number of military 19 police on the Base at the time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Three (3) or four (4)? 22 A: No, there were three (3) military 23 police at that particular incident. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And I think we had around twenty (20)
1951 military police overall on this Base. 2 Q: Okay. Would they have been on duty 3 or off duty at that time? 4 A: Some were on, some were off. 5 Q: Okay. There's then mention that an 6 Iltis which I take it is a large heavy vehicle? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? 9 A: It's a small light jeep. 10 Q: A small light jeep, okay. Was then 11 positioned by one (1) of the Military Police across the 12 rear of the bus and the bus then reversed into the Iltis? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I understand that there was -- 15 there were people in the Iltis at the time, military 16 police? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there is a note here that as a 19 result of the Iltis being rammed one (1) of the Military 20 Police then attempted to get into the bus and stop the 21 driver from continuing to drive? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that in an attempt to do that he 24 was, the driv -- the Military Police sprayed the driver 25 with pepper spray?
1961 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: And despite that the driver was able 3 to get away? 4 A: Get away, yes, okay. 5 Q: Okay. And the reason I'm asking you 6 that is because there is, according to the note that 7 Officer Todd sprayed the driver with pepper spray, 8 physically removed him from the bus. The driver resisted 9 and then the Military Police were surrounded by a number 10 of the occupiers? 11 A: That's true. 12 Q: And I understand as we go through 13 this document that the next significant incident that 14 happened is that a fork lift was driven through the doors 15 of a drill hall? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And was then used to try and run down 18 the Military Police? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that that driver of the fork lift 21 was also sprayed with pepper spray? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I take it that at this point in 24 time you've arrived on the scene? 25 A: I got there about three (3) minutes
1971 after that or four (4) minutes after that. They were off 2 the fork lift. 3 Q: Okay. And at the time you arrived 4 then there would have been the three (3) military police 5 and they would have been surrounded by a circle of the 6 occupiers? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I take it that the occupiers were 9 yelling at the Military Police? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you tell us what they were 12 yelling? 13 A: The actual words, I don't have a clue 14 because I just don't remember the words at the time. 15 Q: Okay. Did the occupiers have weapons 16 in their hands? 17 A: Depends how you'd classify, like 18 sticks and rocks and things. They didn't have a -- we 19 didn't see any firearms. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: If that's what you're looking for. 22 Q: Sticks and rocks and metal bars -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and that kind of thing? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1981 Q: Okay. And were you of the view that 2 the Military Police there were in danger? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And there is a note closer to 5 the end -- bottom of that page that talks about the 6 occupiers were: 7 "Threatening to inflict grievous bodily 8 harm on the MPP who held the crowd at 9 bay by indicating they would employ 10 pepper spray in self-defence. Fearing 11 that they would be sprayed the Natives 12 positioned several small children in 13 front of the crowd knowing that the MPP 14 were too professional to harm small 15 children." 16 And when you arrived there is that what 17 you saw? 18 A: That's about where we were when I hit 19 the ground. 20 Q: Okay. And you've told us that as a 21 result of that were the MPP's at that time armed -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- with firearms? Were they in a 24 position to use their firearms given the crowd and the 25 children?
1991 A: What do you mean by "were they in a 2 position to use them"? 3 Q: If they would have been concerned to 4 use pepper spray in a circumstance where children were 5 brought to the front of the circle, I take it that also 6 would have been an impediment to protecting themselves in 7 other ways? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And as a result of that I take it you 10 ordered -- when you arrived you ordered the MPP's to 11 leave and tried to disperse the crowd. There is a note 12 that talks about that over the course of the evening and 13 afternoon, that the situation at this Base deteriorated-- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and became more unruly -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- and can you tell us about that? 18 A: The -- well as we've already 19 discussed this morning, once we got through that little 20 incident on the parade square, the -- we tried to 21 separate the forces by starting to divvy up the Base. 22 Put the Natives -- confine the Natives to the area of the 23 church and to separate the forces to try to de-escalate 24 the situation. 25 But that was just not working. There was
2001 -- there was very, very little control and so it became a 2 question of really just -- just leaving because we would 3 have I'm sure, ended up using more -- more lethal force 4 over the course of the evening had we stayed. 5 Q: As protection? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I take it that as of July 29th, 8 1995, the remove -- the removal of assets from the Base 9 was almost completed? 10 A: It was fairly close, yes. 11 Q: And you had or were in the course of 12 the implementing a plan in terms of getting the 13 environmental cleanup done -- 14 A: We were trying to, yes. 15 Q: -- so that -- so that the Base could 16 be returned? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And can you tell us in your view, 19 whether or not the actions of the occupiers in taking 20 over the built-up area facilitated or hindered that plan? 21 A: I think it hindered it. I -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- thought we were well on the way to 24 resolving the issue. 25 Q: And I take it eleven (11) years later
2011 that it still hasn't happened. 2 A: The fact that here I am ten (10) 3 years after the fact? Yes, the justice still hasn't 4 happened. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are my 6 questions. 7 A: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Ms. Jones. 10 Ms. McAleer..? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Good afternoon, 15 Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 afternoon. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 20 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Smith. 21 A: Good afternoon. 22 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 23 one (1) of the lawyers who's acting for the former 24 Premier Mike Harris. I would like to start by asking you 25 a couple of questions also about the role of Bob Antone
2021 and Bruce Elijah. 2 If you could turn to Tab 25 of the 3 document brief, it's Exhibit P-1817. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 26 -- 8 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Tab -- Tab 25. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit 273. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 12 Q: Oh. Sorry, apparently we have a 13 different book. It's Tab 26 of your book. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 18 Q: Oh, perhaps I have the wrong document 19 number. It's Tab 25 of your book -- I may have the wrong 20 exhibit number. P-273, yes, that's it. Now if you turn 21 to the second page. Do you have that, Mr. Smith? 22 A: Tab 25, second page. 23 Q: Correct. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Point 4. This refers to the -- the
2031 cross cultural training and to be offered by Mr. Antone 2 and Mr. Elijah to assist with mediation. It says: 3 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah offered to 4 assist in alleviating tension between 5 the Stoney Point Group and the Military 6 with the view to allowing the 7 environmental assessment sub --" 8 A: I'm sorry. I'm not with you here. 9 Q: You're not with me? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Tab 25. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Second page in. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Halfway down the page at Point 4, 16 see? It says it "Possible talks on secure issues". 17 A: Halfway down the page I've something 18 that says page 2. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: This is not my document anyways. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having 24 the same problem as the Witness is. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, page 3.
2041 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Do you have it, 4 Mr. Commissioner? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't. 6 I'm having the same difficulty. I've got Exhibit 273, 7 I've got the second page, I'm halfway down. It's the 8 next page over? Now I have it. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: It's actually 13 the third page --- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 That's fine. We got it now. 16 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Sorry, Mr. 17 Commissioner, we -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: -- have different 20 numbers of pages. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 23 Q: So third page of your brief, halfway 24 down the page where it says point 4: 25 "Possible talks and secure issues?"
2051 A: I'm with you now. 2 Q: Great. 3 "During CCAT Bob Antone and Bruce 4 Elijah offered to assist in alleviating 5 tensions between the Stoney Point Group 6 and the Military with the view to 7 allowing the environmental assessment, 8 subsequent remediation action, and 9 eventual handover to the Natives to 10 proceed. They clearly understand that 11 the principle impediment is the schism 12 between the Stoney Point Group and the 13 Kettle Point and Stony Point Band and 14 the behaviour of the Stoney Point 15 Group." 16 Have I read that correctly? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And does that accord with your 19 recollection of the objectives that were put forward to 20 Mr. Antone and Mr. Elijah? 21 Is this what you were hoping they would 22 achieve? 23 A: To help negotiate a resolution to the 24 situation? 25 Q: Right.
2061 A: Yes. 2 Q: And on behalf of the -- the tension 3 between the Military and the Stoney Point Group, but also 4 that there was a schism between the Stoney Point Group 5 and the Kettle Point and Stony Point Band did you also 6 have an appreciation that there was a problem between the 7 occupiers and the Band? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And what was your appreciation 10 of the nature of that problem in the summer of 1995? 11 A: It was that the -- the SPG, the 12 occupiers, were not acting on behalf of the Band itself 13 and it seemed that they were occup -- going at the Base 14 for their own interests as opposed to what the Band was 15 trying to do. 16 Q: All right. And did you have the 17 understanding that the Band did not approve of the 18 occupation by the Stoney Point Group? 19 A: I got that impression. 20 Q: Okay. Now, there is also reference 21 to this -- this meeting that you were hoping would take 22 place on August 26th, the Oneida meeting and there was a 23 reference Mr. Millar took you to about Chief Bressette 24 having shown some resistance to that meeting. 25 Do you recall that?
2071 A: Yes. 2 Q: And are you aware of why it was that 3 Chief Bressette was resistant to that meeting? Were you 4 ever told about the nature of that resistance? 5 A: He -- no. He and I never discussed 6 that resistance. 7 Q: Okay. So you don't know why he 8 didn't want to participate? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And I also wanted to ask you a couple 11 of questions about the role of Bruce Elijah and Bob 12 Antone after the takeover of the built-up unit, the 13 built-up area I should say. 14 If you look at Tab 34 which is P-276, 15 3(c). Do you have that, 3(c)? 16 A: 3(c). Would that be page 3 or 17 paragraph? 18 Q: Sorry, no, it's on the first page. 19 It's point number 3, sub C. 20 A: No, my first page starts with para 4. 21 Q: It's Tab 34. 22 A: Tab -- my second page starts with 23 3(c). 24 Q: Or you second page? Okay. It's my 25 first page.
2081 A: Okay. 2 Q: And you see where it says at 3 approximately 15:00 hours July 30th -- 4 A: No, no, different 3(c), sorry. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: This is the Situation Report Number 9 27, not the one (1) by the detachment. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The situation report-- 14 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 27. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- is the last two (2) 16 pages of this particular document which I believe we 17 marked separately as the exhibit. 18 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: I have it as 19 Exhibit P-276. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's part -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I've marked -- I 22 believe we marked 700576 as a separate document. 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Do you have it 24 now, Mr. Smith? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2091 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Do you have it, 2 Mr. Commissioner? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I do, 4 it's the last page in that exhibit. 5 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 7 it. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 10 Q: Let's just go down to 4(c). 11 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah advised 12 that due to the severe animosity 13 between the Kettle Point and Stony 14 Point Band and the Stoney Point Group 15 they would make a decision on whether 16 or not they would continue to assist 17 with the negotiations. They will 18 advise on their decision at the meeting 19 scheduled for 10:00 hours, 31st July, 20 1995." 21 Now, do you recall, Mr. Smith, having a 22 discussion with either Bob Antone or Bruce Elijah after 23 the occupation of the built-up area as to whether or not 24 they would continue to assist in a negotiating capacity? 25 A: Yes.
2101 Q: And does this accord with your 2 recollection as to their response? 3 A: Pretty close. Yeah. 4 Q: And -- and do you know -- or I should 5 ask you, did they actually follow-up with you at that 6 meeting? 7 Did they advise whether or not they were 8 going to continue to assist? 9 A: I don't know if we got that far to 10 the 31st or not. That was a few days down the road. 11 Q: Okay. And did they provide any other 12 explanation as to this -- this animosity between the 13 Kettle Point Band and the Stoney Point Group that was 14 prohibiting them from continuing to act as negotiators? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And did they, after that point in 17 time, which would have been July 30th, did they continue 18 to play any kind of negotiating role? 19 A: After July 30th. 20 Q: Right, so it's after the take over of 21 the built-up area; did they play any other role? 22 A: They were still peripherally involved 23 I think. 24 Q: And can you tell us what kind of role 25 they played? What did they do?
2111 A: I think I would -- I would contact 2 them to try to just keep negotiations going with the 3 occupiers because they were a known entity at that point. 4 Q: All right. You've mentioned in your 5 evidence and in the documents a gentleman by the name of 6 Dick Bressette, was Mr. Bressette an occupier or was he 7 living at the Kettle Point and Stoney Point area? 8 A: He lived at Kettle Point. 9 Q: Okay. And was he a member of the 10 Band Council as far as you knew? 11 A: As -- well, as far as I knew he was 12 one (1) of the Elders. I don't know if Elders are on 13 that part of the Council or not. 14 Q: Okay. So is it fair to say that you 15 were also trying to contact Mr. Dick Bressette as a means 16 of communicating with the occupiers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, if we -- I'll try it 19 again, Tab 38. Mr. Millar and I both have this as 20 Exhibit P-1830. The second page, sub (I)? 21 A: I'm sorry? 22 Q: Second page, sub (I). At the very 23 top of the page there's an H and then there's an I? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: At I?
2121 A: Got it. 2 Q: "Glenn George has turned down the 3 offer 4 of Ovid Mercerdi to mediate the dispute 5 between the Kettle Point and Stoney 6 Point Band and the Stoney Point Group. 7 Tom Bressette will attempt to have Gord 8 Rodgers mediate the rift." 9 Now, do you recall being advised that Ovid 10 Mercerdi had offered to mediate the dispute? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And do you recall being 13 advised that Glenn George had turned down that offer? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you recall being advised as to 16 the reasoning behind Mr. George's decision not to take 17 Mr. Mercerdi up on his offer? 18 A: You'd have to ask Mr. George why he 19 didn't want to do that. 20 Q: You -- nobody told you the reason? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And do you know whether Chief 23 Bressette followed up with Gord Rodgers? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: Do you know who Gord Rodgers is?
2131 A: I probably do but I just can't 2 remember it at the moment. 3 Q: Okay. Now, finally, turning to the 4 topic of the takeover of the Provincial Park; when were 5 you first advised that there could be a potential 6 takeover of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 7 A: The -- there was concern about 8 takeover of the Park even -- I think even before I 9 arrived there. 10 Q: Okay. You indicated -- well, 11 actually, if you turn to Tab 45 and if you turn in to 12 point number 4 which is, again, four (4) pages in for me. 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 15 Exhibit 1826? 16 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Yes, it is, 17 Commissioner. Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 20 Q: Do you have point four (4): 21 "The following actions were taken..." 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: "The following actions were taken to 24 minimize losses subsequent to the 25 Native occupation of Camp Ipperwash.
2141 These actions cover the period July 2 30th to August 14th, 1995 and were 3 conducted by Captain Smith acting as 4 the Military Liaison Officer to the 5 Natives within the Camp." 6 And then on sub A it says: 7 "Captain Smith met daily at 10:00 hours 8 with the Native occupiers of the Camp. 9 These meetings were held in the Camp 10 headquarter building. The meetings 11 were chaired by a Native Elder Council 12 Member and attended by the majority of 13 Elders and Council Members and several 14 Native observers." 15 Now first of all, Mr. Smith, do you recall 16 attending these meetings between July 30th and August 17 14th? 18 A: Yes. Sort of. 19 Q: Is it -- is it fair to say that you 20 attended on a daily basis? 21 A: If -- if it says I did, then I did, 22 yes. 23 Q: Okay. And did these meetings 24 actually take place -- I assume it means they took place 25 in the
2151 built-up area, is that correct? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. The main -- the 3 main headquarter building. 4 Q: Right. And during the course of 5 those meetings, did anyone of the Elders or anyone else 6 who was present, ever assert a claim to ownership of the 7 Provincial Park? 8 A: Not that I remember. 9 Q: Do you recall if anyone ever asserted 10 a claim or mentioned the existence of burial grounds in 11 the Provincial Park? 12 A: That had been mentioned on and off 13 for a long time. 14 Q: But do you recall anybody during the 15 course of these meetings? 16 A: At these meetings, no. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Smith, those 18 are all my questions. 19 A: Thank you. 20 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Ms. McAleer. 24 Mr. Goodman...? 25
2161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Captain Smith. My 10 name is Adam Goodman and I'm one of the lawyers for Deb 11 Hutton who in 1995 was an aide to former Premier Harris. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: And I have a couple of documents that 14 I would like to put to you. I'm not sure they're on your 15 table right now, P-481 and P-402. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Not those exhibits, 17 no. 18 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: No, no. Okay. And I 19 have a copy for Mr. Commissioner as well, just to make 20 sure. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25
2171 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 2 Q: Just for the benefit of My Friends, 3 I'll read out the Inquiry Document Numbers, it's 2000899 4 and 700282. The first one (1) is P-481, Exhibit P-481 5 and the second is P- -- Exhibit P-402. 6 So I guess I'll put some context to these 7 documents before we have a look at them. 8 This Inquiry has heard -- 9 A: Can we -- can we just stop. I'd like 10 to discuss this with the DND rep. please, my document is 11 marked 'Secret' and it has not be de-classified. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: These were provided earlier this 16 morning to your counsel. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. GARY PENNER: So it presents the same 21 problem. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, we don't 23 when the document was copied or when the de- 24 classification may or may not have occurred but there 25 doesn't seem to be a stamp on it. Is that what mean?
2181 MR. GARY PENNER: That's -- that's right 2 so it -- it I think clearly originated as a Department of 3 National Defence document but it isn't -- it doesn't have 4 the 'unclassified' stamp on it. I -- it may be -- the 5 easiest way to deal with this is just ask the Witness if 6 he's ever seen this document or knows anything about it. 7 And if he doesn't, that's the end of the 8 matter. Which I assume will probably be the answer and 9 then we can move on from there. 10 MR. ADAM PENNER: With respect, I don't 11 know if it'll be the end of the matter because I -- I'll 12 have some questions about what's in these documents. 13 The second document was a -- is 14 correspondence from W.B. -- Major General W.B. Vernon to 15 Commissioner Tom O'Grady. I can't see how this would be 16 classified. And I can -- I can make reference to what's 17 in the first document without -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 19 would be a lot easier because some of it is already 20 evidence I presume. 21 MR. ADAM PENNER: Yeah. And they're 22 marked exhibits -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They're 24 exhibits. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-402 is clearly not
2191 one (1) that -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not 3 classified. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and P-481, Inquiry 5 Document 2000899 has already been marked an exhibit, P- 6 481. But it came from the -- it came from the OPP 7 database that the OPP provided. 8 But at any rate for the reasons that Mr. 9 Penner has said this Witness can't answer questions about 10 this. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But if you-- 12 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: But I can make 13 reference -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- can deal 15 with it in the same way -- 16 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Yeah, I can -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- shows 18 that -- 19 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: And the -- and the -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- without 21 referring specifically to the document. 22 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Yeah. And I can also 23 say that they say pretty much the same thing so we can 24 dance around it like that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I say some
2201 of this I know is already in evidence. 2 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you can 4 refer to it. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 7 Q: Okay. So, Captain Smith, I'll give 8 you some context to the -- to the question I'm going to 9 ask you. 10 This Inquiry has heard and -- and it was 11 alluded with you in your examination-in-chief with Mr. 12 Millar that in 1993 the Stoney Point Group occupied the 13 ranges at Camp Ipperwash. 14 Now, I know from your evidence earlier 15 that at the time you were stationed at CFB Toronto in the 16 summer of 1993, however, I take it that in your tasks 17 which included assigning MP's to Camp Ipperwash you would 18 have been made aware when the occupation of the ranges 19 started? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, this Inquiry -- oh, 22 perhaps I'll just take you to -- to Document P-402. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: And I'll read a portion of it and 25 again this is P-402 and it's correspondence between Major
2211 General Vernon and Commissioner Tom O'Grady who was at 2 the time the OPP Commissioner. 3 And if you look at the -- the third 4 paragraph and the -- the topic is Occupation of Camp 5 Ipperwash Stoney Point Group and it's dated June 29th, 6 1993. And I'll read you the third paragraph: 7 "However, if there should be a change 8 in the circumstances at Camp Ipperwash 9 that would represent a threat to 10 personal training or working at Camp 11 Ipperwash or the imminent threat of 12 destruction of public property it would 13 then be necessary to take action to 14 effect the eviction of the SPG [Stoney 15 Point Group] from Ipperwash." 16 Now again you -- you weren't present at 17 CFB Ipperwash at -- at this point in time but did you 18 understand that -- that the Military or DND had certain 19 plans, certain contingency plans to evict the occupiers 20 from Camp Ipperwash in these early days of the -- of the 21 occupation in 1993? 22 A: No, I was unaware of this. 23 Q: Okay. But you accept that -- from 24 this document that it -- it happened? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, he can't do
2221 that. 2 THE WITNESS: I -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not 4 aware of it. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, he can't -- he 6 can't -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 8 unaware -- 9 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: I'm sorry, I withdraw. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 12 Q: So I'd like you now to turn your 13 attention to the events of July 29th, 1995, this is the 14 day the occupiers moved from the range to the barracks of 15 the built-up area. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And in particular I'd like to turn 18 your attention to the decision to evacuate the barracks. 19 This was your decision, correct? 20 A: Initially, yes. 21 Q: Okay. So initially in that you made 22 the decision, you recommended it to London or Ottawa and 23 it was accepted? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And this -- and you made this
2231 decision based upon your assessment, your professional 2 assessment that continued co-habitation between the 3 Military and the occupiers would lead to a risk of 4 physical injury by both sides? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And as a matter of fact you've 7 already told the Commission about certain bodily injury 8 that had already happened at that time, the pepper spray 9 incident? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you've -- and you've gone over 12 with Mr. Millar and with Ms. Jones the events of that day 13 and I'm not going to go back to it. 14 And all of this information would have 15 been shared with DND in London and Ottawa before you 16 received the go ahead to evacuate? 17 A: It was concurrent with the 18 preparations to evacuate, yes. 19 Q: I'm -- sorry, I don't know if you 20 understood the question. You would have reported 21 everything that had happened that day as well as your 22 recommendation to evacuate? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Before Ottawa made the decision? 25 A: Yes.
2241 Q: Or rubber stamped your decision? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And you still stand by that decision? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, I'd like to take your attention 10 to September 1995 and this is during the occupation of 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 12 And I understand from your previous 13 evidence that you attended the OPP Command Post on 14 several occasions between September 4th and 6th? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, that wasn't his 16 evidence. His evidence was he attended on September 6th 17 at 11:18 in the morning or 11:16 in the morning, 18 September 6th in the afternoon. 19 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Thank you, Mr. Miller, 20 for clarifying that. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 23 Q: So on the 6th -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I may be 25 wrong, was there not an attendance on the 4th?
2251 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He was in Toronto -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the 4th? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- he was ordered to 4 go back to Ipperwash according to the documents at the 5 evidence I took him through, on September the 6th. 6 That's when he went back, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 10 Q: So you attended on the 6th, the OPP 11 Command Post. Now, we understand that you and Inspector 12 Carson discussed the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park at this time? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Mr. Miller canvassed with you the 16 information that you were passing to Inspector Carson, at 17 that time. Now, this Inquiry has heard evidence that the 18 OPP's operational plan called for MNR as landlords of 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park to seek an injunction and then 20 the OPP would take action after that point. 21 Now, until this was done the OPP's task 22 would be merely to contain the occupation and maintain 23 the peace. 24 Now, in your meetings with Inspector 25 Carson I take it, that this was your understanding of the
2261 OPP's game plan, to the extent that it was shared with 2 you? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well I -- 4 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: If it was at all? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No but this kind of 6 built up question -- you can ask him what he understood 7 as a plan, or what the plan was and this is about a four 8 (4) -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- wrapped up four (4) 11 or five (5) facts in the same question. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 15 Q: Did you have any understanding of 16 what the OPP's operational plan was? 17 A: I did not know what the OPP plan was 18 with -- 19 Q: Okay. That's fine -- 20 A: -- the MNR. 21 Q: Those are my questions. 22 A: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much, Mr. Goodman. 25 I think Mr. Rosenthal is up.
2271 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, 6 sir. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Good afternoon Mr. Smith. I want to 10 conspire with you to try and help you get your plane so 11 I'm going to speak much more quickly than I otherwise 12 would. 13 So first, I take it, to clarify that you 14 during this entire incident never saw a First Nations 15 person with firearms, is that correct? 16 A: That's true. 17 Q: And you were not aware of any of your 18 officers being threatened in any way by firearms by a 19 First Nation's person? 20 A: By firearms, that is true. 21 Q: Yes. Thank you. Now, with respect 22 to this Kettle and Stoney Point conflict, if you could 23 please quickly turn to Tab 18 of your binder there, which 24 is Exhibit P-256, I'd like to look at the end of that 25 document, the last page of the document.
2281 That is 4(c) -- is that the paragraph you 2 have on the last page, sir? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Top of the last page? 5 A: Yes -- Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Comment: 7 "OPP agree that conflict will occur 8 between Kettle Stoney Point Band and 9 Stoney Point Group when the Military 10 vacates Camp Ipperwash. As far as the 11 OPP are concerned that will be an 12 internal Band problem and they will not 13 get involved until it is over." 14 Now, I take it you as the author of this 15 document would have also agreed with that, that that was 16 an internal problem, not only would the OPP not get 17 involved in it, but you the Military wouldn't get 18 involved in it either, right? 19 A: Internal Band issues is not our -- 20 Q: Not your issue -- 21 A: -- not our issue. 22 Q: And so that -- any internal conflict 23 that they may have had, didn't affect what you were going 24 to do or what the OPP was going to do, as far as you 25 understood it?
2291 A: As far as I understood it. 2 Q: Thank you. Now, you knew the rough 3 history in the sense that the Camp Ipperwash had been 4 taken from the Stoney Point people in 1942, is that 5 correct? Sir? 6 A: The rough history, yes. 7 Q: And you knew it was taken under the 8 War Measures Act around the second World War and so on, 9 right? And you knew that they had been given that land 10 under a Treaty that had been from way before the Second 11 World War, right? 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: I'm not going to quiz you on any 14 details, sir. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: But, you had that general 17 understanding and you had the understanding that for 18 fifty (50) years they'd been trying to get their land 19 back, right? 20 A: Give or take, yes. 21 Q: Give or take. And that understanding 22 would have made you somewhat sympathetic to their 23 concerns that they wanted to get it back sooner rather 24 than later after all those years, right? 25 A: The --
2301 Q: Would it not, weren't you somewhat 2 sympathetic to that, sir? 3 A: I was sympathetic to the fact that we 4 had a piece of land that was full of a bunch of 5 unexploded ammunitions and my main concerns and 6 sympathies were with sorting out the land so that nobody 7 would get hurt. 8 Q: Well, okay, we'll come to that. But 9 you also understood why they might feel the sense of 10 urgency getting their land back before more generations 11 lived and died, right? 12 A: Fair enough. 13 Q: Fair enough. Now did you give the 14 soldiers under your command some understanding of that 15 concern so that they'd have some sympathy for the people 16 who were occupying the land? 17 A: We tried to, yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Through that cross cultural training 20 that we conducted. 21 Q: Now at this point Camp Ipperwash was 22 not needed for any military purposes and hadn't been for 23 years, right? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: As far as you understood?
2311 A: No. That's not true. 2 Q: It's not true. 3 A: It had been used up until within the 4 last year but as a -- as a Cadet training camp, I 5 believe. 6 Q: Yes. For a couple of months in the 7 summer for training of Cadets, right? 8 A: Okay. It's a military purpose, isn't 9 it? 10 Q: Yes. A very slight purpose, right? 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: Right. Compared to people getting 13 their land back, right? Right? Right, sir? 14 A: I -- I don't want to speculate on 15 that. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, that's -- now, I 17 might ask My Friend just one (1) thing. If he could talk 18 closer to one (1) mic or the other because I'm afraid 19 we're going to miss him on the transcript. Okay. 20 But at any rate, I don't think he can 21 answer that question about -- My Friend put. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: In any event, I'm going to move on. 25 You told us, sir, that when you took over in June 1995
2321 your role was to maintain calm and peacefully hand over 2 the Base to the Native group, right? 3 A: That's true. 4 Q: And the concern, I gather, as you 5 said forcefully a few minutes moments ago, was about the 6 unexploded ordinance, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: On the other hand, Cadets have been 9 running around that land, right? 10 A: The Cadets had been allowed on 11 certain areas for training, yes. 12 Q: I see. Oh, and were there some areas 13 that were considered more dangerous, with respect to 14 unexploded ordinances, than others, sir? 15 A: Absolutely. 16 Q: And were those posted in some way so 17 the Cadets wouldn't go on them? 18 A: They were posted, yes. 19 Q: I see. And those signs were up in 20 July of 1995 as well? 21 A: Those signs were internal to the 22 training area and the status of those signs at that 23 point, I don't know because I -- 24 Q: I see. Now there was no actual work 25 done on looking for those unexploded ordinances in the
2331 summer of 1995, was there, as far as you were aware? 2 A: No, I don't think there was. 3 Q: So it didn't seem to be great urgency 4 to get work started on that, right? 5 A: Well, I thought we were working 6 fairly hard to try to get that Dillon environmental 7 assessment company in. 8 Q: Well you talked about negotiating 9 with the -- with the Stoney Point people and so on. What 10 were you going to negotiate, sir, about cleaning up the 11 land or what? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: But, sir, couldn't you have just 14 insisted that people come in and clean up that land 15 quickly? You don't need anybody's permission to do that, 16 do you? 17 A: I'm sorry. I had no authority to 18 tell anyone to do that. 19 Q: No, no. You, I mean you, the 20 Department of National Defence, didn't you have the where 21 with all to hire some organization to come and clean up 22 the land, sir? 23 A: I -- I can't speak on behalf of the 24 Department of National Defence for that. 25 Q: But you say that you were going to
2341 negotiate with the Stoney Point Group; what were you 2 going to negotiate about when the problem was the 3 ordinances, sir? 4 A: That's exactly what we were 5 negotiating, was where the ordinance was and how we would 6 get rid of it. 7 Q: Well, why do you have to negotiate 8 with them about how you're going to get rid of them? Why 9 didn't you just get rid of it? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, but I -- he's 11 answered the question that he wasn't going to negotiate 12 with anybody. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't hear 14 you, Mr. Millar. I can't hear you, Mr. Millar. I'm 15 sorry. You're speaking into the mic that you -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Perhaps 17 this one isn't on. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it is 19 working now. I hear you now. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend -- this 21 gentleman can't answer the question as to -- he -- he can 22 answer the question of what he did and what he was 23 supposed to do and what he negotiated, but not what the 24 superiors in DND were going to do or not going to do. 25
2351 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: That's correct. And sir, you said 3 you were going to negotiate with the Stoney Point Group 4 about cleaning up the land. Were you going to get their 5 assistance in picking up the ordinances? What were you 6 going to negotiate with them about that, sir? 7 A: No. We're going to get concurrence 8 in how it would be done and how the land would be handed 9 over to them once it was cleaned up. 10 Q: Well why did that require a 11 negotiation with them, as to how it would be handed over 12 to them? Couldn't you just clean it up and give it to 13 them? 14 A: Well that was in fact the long term 15 intent, yes. 16 Q: Well why wasn't that the short term 17 intent, sir? 18 A: Well, because these things take time. 19 Q: These things take time. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: These people have been waiting fifty 22 (50) years, sir. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Why did you -- why did you -- do you 25 have any understanding as to why there had not been a
2361 program put in place to just clean up the land? 2 A: I have no -- 3 Q: No understanding. 4 A: -- no understanding of that at all. 5 Q: And so you said to these people, We 6 want to negotiate. Given the context that I've described 7 to you, sir, wouldn't it have been reasonable for those 8 people to think that you were just stalling and talking 9 because there was nothing to negotiate with them? 10 A: I don't know. You -- you would have 11 to ask them. 12 Q: Yes. Now, sir, and then you did, in 13 fact, vacate on July 29th, did you not, sir? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Why didn't you vacate on July 1st and 16 avoid the confrontation and the possible danger? 17 A: Because I was told to be there on 18 July 1st. 19 Q: By whom? 20 A: By my military superiors. 21 Q: And were you told to leave on July 22 29th by your superiors, sir? 23 A: Once it came down to leaving, yes. 24 Q: What do you mean, "once it came down 25 to leaving?"
2371 A: To -- to actually leaving the Camp, 2 yes. 3 Q: You -- you -- I -- I thought it was 4 your decision to leave and then you got it ratified 5 higher up later on; am I incorrect, sir? 6 A: Same thing. 7 Q: Same thing? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I see. Okay. But in any event, did 10 you discuss -- when you took over in June of 1995 were 11 there serious discussions about leaving right away, to 12 finally accommodate these people after fifty (50) years? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: There were? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you were involved in such 17 discussions? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that -- that was rejected, I 20 gather? 21 A: It was rejected because what the 22 Military wanted to do was get the land cleaned up prior 23 to leaving. 24 Q: Well, if they wanted to get the land 25 cleaned up, why did they not initiate some cleanup?
2381 A: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 3 THE WITNESS: -- I think that's what the 4 Military was trying to do. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: They were trying to do that? What 9 was the indication that they were trying to do that, sir? 10 What did they do on July 1st -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 12 minute Mr. Rosenthal. Just a minute. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, My Friend -- 14 there is evidence that the Kettle and Stony Point First 15 Nation commenced an action against the Federal Government 16 with respect to the use of Dillon as the environmental -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The company 18 that was -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- company. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- chosen. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And so My Friend 22 should put that into the mix -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and it's also in 25 the situation reports.
2391 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with respect, 2 I don't think I have to put into the mixture what I don't 3 want to put into the mixture and I'm not discounting -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- any evidence. 6 I'm asking: Why did the Military not clean it up in 7 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 9 think this Witness -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- can 12 answer any of those questions. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. This is -- this 14 is really argument in the guise of a question. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, this is 16 what you're going to say -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I -- I -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in your 19 submissions, Mr. Rosenthal. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- next question. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Now, sir, you told us that you were 24 concerned about outsiders, people not from the Stoney 25 Point Group First Nations who were supporting them; is
2401 that correct, sir? 2 A: People who were outside the area, 3 yes. 4 Q: Outside the area. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Wouldn't you expect and wouldn't it 7 be normal and entirely proper for people who felt that 8 other people had been aggrieved by having their land 9 stolen from them for fifty (50) years to come and support 10 them? Was there any problem with that, in your view, 11 sir? 12 A: No, I guess not. 13 Q: What's the problem? Why did you view 14 that as a problem, that other First Nations people from 15 other places might come to show support? 16 A: Well, my main concern was people that 17 came from outside would be unfamiliar with the status of 18 the land on the Base and, as such, get hurt by some of 19 the unexploded munition on it. 20 Q: Well, did you put out some pamphlets, 21 for example -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- describing where there was 24 unexploded ordinances? 25 A: Yes.
2411 Q: Okay. And that would be the way to 2 deal with it, right, and explain to the people it's 3 dangerous over here because of this, right? 4 A: That's what we were trying to do, 5 yes. 6 Q: But there's nothing wrong with 7 outsiders coming to help people if they believe that they 8 are people who need help because they'd been unjustly 9 treated, right? 10 A: As long as they're not going to get 11 hurt, yes. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Now, you met with John Carson either 15 on September 4 or 6. You may be wrong on that, Mr. 16 Millar, in fact. In any event, I'm not going to -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I wouldn't 18 bet on it. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We'll look at the 20 transcript, but now I know he's very rarely wrong but 21 this might be an instance. But we'll check on that 22 later, you have a plane to catch. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Sometime on September -- between
2421 September 4 and 6 you met with Inspector Carson several 2 times, right, or twice? 3 A: Twice. 4 Q: And during those meetings, sir, did 5 he give you some indication that there seemed to be some 6 political interest in this matter from politicians? 7 A: No, we were not. 8 Q: Were you aware of that in the course 9 of the discussions with him? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Not at all? 12 A: Not at all. 13 Q: The question of the Premier didn't 14 come up at all? 15 A: Not at all. 16 Q: And what about MPP Beaubien, did his 17 name come up? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Thank you, sir, I hope you catch your 20 plane. 21 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Mr. Rosenthal. 24 I think we're up to... 25
2431 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 4 Yes, sir? Mr. Neil...? Yes, sir? 5 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Good afternoon, 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 10 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Smith. 11 A: Good afternoon. 12 Q: I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the 13 Residents of Aazhoodena, also known as Stoney Pointers. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: Just a few questions in a very few 16 areas for you this afternoon. 17 My first area of questioning sir, I 18 understand that when you arrived at the Camp in June of 19 '95, were you the highest ranking officer at the Camp? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Was -- I'll call him Mr. Howse, I'm 22 not sure if he's a civilian or still with the -- 23 A: I believe he's still serving -- 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He is retired. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, is he not? He retired,
2441 yeah. We all get older and retire. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 4 Q: Mr. Howse remained at the Base during 5 your tenure? 6 A: Part of it, yes. 7 Q: Was he there on a regular basis or as 8 needed, or what was -- what was his situation with 9 respect to the Base, when you were at the Base? 10 A: So I became the Tactical Commander 11 and he took over the administration aspects. 12 Q: So you were the Tactical Commander; 13 did he remain as the Commanding Officer? 14 A: No. 15 Q: So in other words, you out ranked Mr. 16 Howse at that time? 17 A: I believe I did, yes. We were both 18 Captains, we'd have to look at our respective dates. 19 Q: But as far as you can recall, he 20 reported to you as opposed to you reporting to him? 21 A: Well I think it was a little bit 22 nebulous; on tactical issues he reported to me, on 23 administrative issues it was his issue. 24 Q: Okay. So he was handling the 25 administrative end of things. Do you recall when he was
2451 first posted to Camp Ipperwash -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- were you aware of that? But, he 4 had been there, as far as your knowledge, a certain 5 amount of time prior to your getting there? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you recall today what the reason 8 for your going to Camp Ipperwash was? 9 A: I believe I was -- just happened to 10 be the closest Security Officer around. 11 Q: So you were a Security Officer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And Captain -- or sorry -- yes, 14 Captain Howse, now Mr. Howse, he was not? 15 A: He was not, no. 16 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to suggest to 17 you, sir, that one (1) of the reasons why you were sent 18 to Ipperwash was because there was a certain amount of 19 antagonism that was felt by the occupiers in the approach 20 that Mr. Howse took to being the Commanding Officer at 21 the Base; do you agree with that? 22 A: You would have to ask them, I don't 23 know about that. 24 Q: So you weren't aware of that factor 25 in you being sent to the Base?
2461 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And I noted, in going through your 6 document brief, Exhibit P-1793, I don't think I have to 7 refer you to it, there was a reference to, if available, 8 using video photography to record offences. 9 And my question for you is: Did you ever 10 have occasion to instruct your officers, the Military 11 Police to use video photography to videotape the 12 occupiers? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And in questioning by Mr. Rosenthal, 15 he took you to the sense of urgency that the occupiers 16 felt after fifty (50) years, give or take, as you had 17 indicated. And you said that's a reasonable -- a 18 reasonable thing, you didn't disagree with Mr. Rosenthal, 19 correct? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Okay. On top of that fifty (50) 22 years, give or take, I'm going to suggest to you that 23 another reason why you would understand that there would 24 be a sense of urgency on the part of the occupiers, was 25 that they were living without electricity; would you
2471 agree with that? 2 A: Where were they living without 3 electricity? 4 Q: On the range. 5 A: Oh, okay. 6 Q: You would agree that that might be a 7 factor in a sense of urgency? 8 A: I don't know if -- the Campground was 9 just down the road also and they were living in there; it 10 was a campground so there is no electricity. 11 Q: And on the range where they were 12 living since May of 1993, they didn't have running water; 13 is that correct? 14 A: That would be true. 15 Q: And would you agree with me that that 16 could lead to a sense of urgency in getting to those 17 built-up -- the built-up area of the Camp? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: And you're also aware or let's -- 20 I'll find out if you're aware or not, that the Stoney 21 Point Group were lineal descendants of people who had 22 lived on the lands of the built-up area and Camp 23 Ipperwash? 24 Were you aware of that? 25 A: Okay. I'll take your word for it.
2481 Q: You weren't aware of that in 1995? 2 A: I -- I was unfamiliar of the -- of 3 the heritage and -- and the -- what did you call it, the 4 lineal...? 5 Q: Lineal descendants? 6 A: I was unaware of all that. 7 Q: And in cross-examination by Ms. 8 Jones, you had mentioned that the Stoney Point Group was 9 pursuing its own interests with respect to the Army Camp; 10 you recall saying that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 13 one (1) of those interests would have been reclaiming the 14 lands of their ancestors; would you agree with that? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Okay. Thank you, sir. Those are all 17 my questions. 18 A: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Mr. George...? 21 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I don't have any 22 questions, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2491 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm going to join Mr. 2 Rosenthal's airport conspiracy. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you? 4 Okay. 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: And be very, very quick 6 with my questioning, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Roy. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 11 Q: Good morning, sir. My name is Julian 12 Roy and I'm one of the counsel for Aboriginal Legal 13 Services Toronto and I just have some very, very brief 14 questions for you. All right? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Okay. And it's in regard to your Tab 17 46, which are excerpts from the scribe notes that Mr. 18 Millar took you to. I just have -- just a couple of 19 questions for you to elaborate, if you can, on -- on the 20 meetings that you had with John Carson. 21 At page 61 of the scribe notes, at 11:18 22 Mr. Millar's already taken you to an early meeting that 23 you have on Wednesday, September 6th. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you have somewhat of a lengthy
2501 discussion with John Carson at that first meeting; is 2 that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And then you -- you go away 5 and you go to Kettle and Stony Point and meet with some 6 other people; is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then you come back at -- on page 9 64 you had 16:16 hours and you have a further meeting 10 with John Carson; do you see that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And at the second meeting 13 you sort of give an update to John Carson as to what 14 happened with your meetings earlier that day; is that 15 right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you pass on some intelligence 18 concerning what you think you know about who may be in a 19 leadership position in the Park; is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now I take it you do that because in 22 your mind it would have been important to open up some 23 kind of line of communication with people who have a 24 leadership position in the Park; is that right? 25 A: Yes.
2511 Q: And you understood that John Carson 2 might want to be interested in that; is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Now I take it, at the behest 5 of John Carson or anybody else at the Command Post, I 6 take it -- well let me start before I go there. 7 You told John Carson that you were going 8 to be having a meeting with -- with Mr. Jewel; is that 9 right? 10 A: Is that what it was? 11 Q: On the Friday, Les Jewel, if you look 12 at the entry at 16:16. 13 A: Yes. I don't think we actually had a 14 meeting set up. 15 Q: Okay. But you told -- 16 A: I think we were trying to get one 17 going. 18 Q: Okay. But you told him that possibly 19 you would meet on Friday. You don't dispute the entry 20 here? 21 A: Yeah. Fair enough. 22 Q: All right. You don't recall being 23 asked by John Carson or anybody else at the Command Post 24 to possibly try and accelerate that meeting and open up a 25 line of communication any quicker than Friday, do you?
2521 A: I don't remember that, no. 2 Q: Okay. And you don't remember taking 3 any steps in that regard, do you? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. You were just told by 6 John Carson to call in advance of that meeting in case 7 there was something they wanted raised; is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And you wouldn't have had 10 any difficulty making efforts to try and move up this 11 meeting, if you were asked by John Carson, would you? 12 A: If he had asked me I would have 13 tried. 14 Q: If he told you that it was very, very 15 important that you urgently try and open up lines of 16 communications with people in the Park, you would have 17 tried to help in that regard, would you have not? 18 A: That's true, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Roy. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you very much, 23 sir. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
2531 Mr. Roy. 2 Mr. Penner, do you have any questions? 3 Should -- given an opportunity, no? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, there's 5 one (1) thing that I just wish to canvas briefly and 6 that's the Iltis jeep that -- and I should have done this 7 in-chief and I intended to but I didn't. 8 9 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: I'm going to show my -- the Witness, 11 this is photo 902 from the OPP photo brief and it was 12 taken on June -- July 29th, 1995. 13 And on the right is a yellow school bus; 14 do you recognize that bus? 15 A: Yeah. Yes. 16 Q: And is that the bus that you spoke to 17 us about as having come through the fence on July 29th? 18 A: It looks like that one, yes. 19 Q: And on the left do you see the -- 20 what appears to be a military vehicle on the left? What 21 is that? 22 A: That's an Iltis jeep. 23 Q: And Iltis jeep? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it's I-L-I-T-I-S (sic)?
2541 A: Yes. 2 Q: And if we go to -- at 904 is another 3 picture of a bus. Is that the bus that you -- you 4 referred to on July 29th? 5 A: Looks like the one, yeah. 6 Q: And then at photo 907 is a photo of 7 the Iltis jeep -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- from the front; is that correct? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And photo 908 is the Iltis jeep from 12 the side? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And photo 909 is the Iltis jeep from 15 the back? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And Commissioner, I would ask that 18 those five (5) photographs be marked the next exhibit, 19 please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1842, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1842. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1842: Coloured photographs 902, 24 904, 907, 908, 909, July 29, 25 1995.
2551 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I've got colour 3 photocopies here for the Registrar. 4 And with that those are my questions. And 5 I wish to thank Mr. Smith very much for coming and 6 attending today. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much for coming and giving us your evidence. Thank 10 you. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks 13 like you're going to make your flight. 14 THE WITNESS: That's a good thing. 15 16 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner, our 19 next witness, which is Mr. Howse, is -- will be here 20 tomorrow morning for nine o'clock. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we will 22 adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is
2561 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, June 27th at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 --- Upon adjourning at 3:41 p.m. 4 5 6 7 Certified Correct 8 9 10 11 ___________________________ 12 Carol Geehan 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25