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1 2 3 4 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: Forest Community Centre 18 Kimball Hall 19 Forest, Ontario 20 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 June 22nd, 2005

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1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Cameron Neil ) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )

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1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)

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1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25

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1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page No. 3 4 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 5 6 Discussion 6 7 8 9 Certificate of Transcript 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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1 --- Upon convening at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Deputy 11 Commissioner Carson. 12 13 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 14 15 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we start today, 17 I wanted to alert you, Commissioner, and everyone else to 18 something. Deputy Commissioner Carson is sick, and has 19 been sick this morning. 20 And he would like to carry on, but I've 21 told him that if he -- if he's not well, we would be 22 better off not to sit, let him get better, and come back 23 tomorrow than have a witness who's not feeling well, and 24 has been quite ill this morning already in the box; so 25 I've asked him to tell us.

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1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Rosenthal...? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning. Good 4 morning, Mr. Commissioner. Good morning, Deputy Carson. 5 May I say, regardless of anything else, I -- I am sorry 6 that you're ill, and I hope you get better soon. 7 And sir, I -- I was just informed of this 8 just now as Mr. Millar said that, I -- I'm a bit 9 reluctant to examine him in those circumstances, sir. I 10 -- I -- if you -- if you suggest that I should do so, I 11 shall. 12 But it -- it may not be fair to the 13 witness, and it may not be fair to the process to -- to - 14 - you know, with that preface to examine him. If we 15 could do -- if -- if there is -- I don't know if there's 16 anything else that could be done profitably this morning. 17 But I'm in your hands, sir, but I -- I do 18 have that concern. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 20 should -- I'm sorry, go ahead, Mr. -- finished, Mr. 21 Rosenthal? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 24 should start and see, and if you don't feel well, Deputy, 25 you have to tell us right away --

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1 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because 3 obviously in the interests of the process, if you don't 4 feel up to answering the questions, you just let us know, 5 and we'll stop. Yes, sir? 6 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I'm 7 expecting, at some point, I would be up examining today, 8 and I just want to echo, and maybe even emphasize the 9 comments that Mr. Rosenthal just made. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And as I simply say 12 this, sir, that we're dealing with very serious matters. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of course. 14 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And counsel -- and 15 I'm sure the witness appreciates this with his 16 professional experience that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 18 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- we are playing 19 the role that we are required to play in the system by 20 challenging him -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes. 22 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- as seriously as 23 we are on these matters. And I -- I think it's -- this 24 is the first I heard about it as well. If the witness 25 feels badly enough to raise the question about his -- his

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1 health, personally I would feel more comfortable if -- if 2 we stood down until he felt that he was well enough to 3 deal with the type of questioning that unfortunately the 4 -- the situation requires he -- he needs to be subjected 5 to. 6 So my suggestion would be, as reluctant as 7 I am to -- to say this, that I do not want to be cross- 8 examining a witness on these types of matters if -- if he 9 indicates to me he's not well. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I have the same 11 concern as the -- as both Mr. Rosenthal and Mr. Horton. 12 It's important to the process that we have a witness who 13 is not feeling ill, and it's important that -- to 14 everyone including the witness, Deputy Commissioner 15 Carson, and the parties, particularly the parties who are 16 examining; so I agree with him 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: May I make perhaps 18 a suggestion. I don't know the nature of Mr. Carson's 19 concerns, but I'm a great believer in the maxim that 20 sleep is the best medicine. I don't know if -- if -- 21 depending upon what he's feeling, perhaps if we took the 22 morning off and he had a place to lie down, and came -- 23 came back this afternoon to -- depending on how he felt. 24 That might be a partial solution depending 25 upon what the nature of his malady is.

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1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would 2 make me feel better, I'll tell you that. Could we take a 3 short break and have counsel discuss this and see -- I 4 know that the Deputy is a good soldier, and he wants to 5 carry on; I understand that, and we all do. And we're 6 anxious to get this thing on and over with but I do 7 understand counsel's concerns and I -- 8 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I just want to add 9 to what I said before based on -- I -- I had this 10 experience quite recently. So in the sense that there 11 was a participant in a case who was not well, and the 12 problem is that it really deteriorated as a result of the 13 decision to continue going on simply because of the 14 stress of the -- of the trial, of the proceedings. 15 So I echo what Mr. Rosenthal just said in 16 the sense that sometimes if -- if we can let the witness 17 recuperate, or whoever is having the problem, it can -- 18 it doesn't -- it doesn't degenerate because this witness 19 could be on the stand for several days yet. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 21 think we'll take a short break and let counsel discuss 22 it, and discuss it with Deputy and with his counsel, and 23 if the consensus is that we're better off not proceeding, 24 then we won't. 25 Are there other counsel who wish to say

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1 something, or is it all right if we have that discussion 2 off the record? 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That was going to 4 be my suggestion, Mr. Commissioner. Since it's obviously 5 a matter of some privacy to the Deputy Commissioner -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 7 so. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- if we can off 9 the record maybe make a brief inquiry just so we know 10 what we're talking about and not invade the privacy of 11 Deputy Commissioner Carson. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 13 that's a good idea. Thank you, Mr. Falconer, we'll do 14 that. We'll take a short break, and then we'll decide 15 whether we continue or not. 16 Thank you. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 18 for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 9:08 a.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 9:19 a.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, what --

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1 I've spoken to My Friends and to Deputy Carson, and what 2 we suggest is the following: that we adjourn today. 3 Mr. Sandler will advise me at -- by e-mail 4 at four o'clock, and I will advise everyone else as to 5 how the -- how Deputy Commissioner Carson is feeling, and 6 if he is still not feeling well, we will adjourn 7 tomorrow, and -- and start again on Monday. 8 If he's feeling better and -- then we 9 could go tomorrow morning, but I reiterate to Deputy 10 Commissioner Carson that -- that it's important that he 11 tell us how he's feeling because we don't want a person 12 who's not feeling well on the witness stand for the 13 reasons -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- My Friends, Mr. 16 Rosenthal and Mr. Horton have said, and I agree with 17 those reasons. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. We're 19 all anxious to continue, we're all anxious to keep the 20 process moving, but certainly not if you're not feeling 21 well. 22 It's been ten (10) years since this event 23 occurred, we're anxious to get on with it, but if you're 24 not feeling well, then we shouldn't proceed. So I agree 25 with the decision. We'll adjourn now and we'll wait to

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1 hear from you regarding whether we reconvene tomorrow 2 or -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On Monday. We don't 4 have a witness that we can -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know that. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- conveniently slot 7 in. If we did we would, but we don't. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We assumed 9 that this witness would be at least the balance of this 10 week, and into next week so. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. And perhaps 12 before we go, I would like to -- Constable Sean Evans of 13 the OPP has provided me with CD Roms with the police 14 orders and policies, which I will distribute to the -- my 15 colleagues if they would just wait a few minutes after we 16 adjourn. 17 And I wish to thank Constable Evans again 18 for his assistance. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Hope you're feeling better, Deputy Commissioner. We'll 21 adjourn now until we hear from you Mr. Millar. Thank you 22 very much. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 24 adjourned. 25

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1 --- Upon adjourning at 9:21 a.m. 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 8 ___________________ 9 Carol Geehan, Ms. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25