11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 19th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 KENNETH STANLEY THOMPSON (Recalled), Sworn 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 14 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Kim Twohig 94 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 96 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 143 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 152 11 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 158 12 13 FRAN HANNAHSON, Sworn 14 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 165 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 266 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1732 "The Promise of The OPP" 4 (Values and Ethics). 5 P-1734 Document Number 1004438. Follow-up 6 reports, Exhibit reports, handwritten 7 notebook entries (September 07, 8 October 02, 1995) and field notes of 9 Stan Thompson. 18 10 P-1735 Document Number 1004473. Anticipated 11 evidence of Kenneth Stanley Thompson 12 (undated). 18 13 P-1736 DVD of video made by Stan Thompson 14 September 18, 1995. 38 15 P-1737 Special Investigations Unit Exhibit 16 report by Stan Thompson, September 17 1995 fo April 1997. 61 18 P-1738 Document Number 2005451. Centre of 19 Forensic Sciences Case submission by 20 Stan Thompson, September 08, 1995. 62 21 P-1739 Document Number 1002012. Centre of 22 Forensic Sciences, Case submission by 23 Stan Thompson, September 29, 1995. 63 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1740 Document Number 1002005. Centre of 4 Forensic Sciences Case submission by 5 P.J. Evans, October 16, 1995. 63 6 P-1741 Document Number 2000140. Report of The 7 Centre of Forensic Sciences re. Anthony 8 O'Brien George and Nicholas Cottrelle, 9 October 20, 1995. 65 10 P-1742 Document Number 1002934. Report of The 11 Centre of Forensic Sciences, received by 12 the SIU , December 14, 1995, December 06, 13 1995. 66 14 P-1743 Document Number 1005654. Report of The 15 Centre of Forensic Sciences re. Death 16 investigation, received by the SIU, 17 January 12, 1996, January 09, 1996. 68 18 P-1744 Document Number 1002927. Report of The 19 Centre of Forensic Sciences re. Death 20 investigation, received by the SIU, 21 February 12, 1996, January 29, 1996. 69 22 P-1745 Document Number 1002012. Centre of 23 Forensic Sciences Case submission by 24 Stan Thompson, April 24, 1996. 72 25
101 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1746 Document Number 2005456. Centre of 4 Forensic Sciences, Case submission by 5 Stan Thompson with additional handwritten 6 notes, April 24, 1996. 72 7 P-1747 Document Number 1002012. Fax to Stan 8 Thompson of report of the Centre of 9 Forensic Sciences, April 26, 1996. 75 10 P-1748 Document Number 2005457. Centre of 11 Forensic Sciences Case submission by 12 Stan Thompson, July 10, 1996. 77 13 P-1749 Document Number 1002008. Fax to Stan 14 Thompson with report of the Centre of 15 Forensic Sciences re. Death investigation 16 with March 07, 1996 report of the Centre 17 of Forensic Sciences re. Death 18 investigation, July 15,1996. 78 19 P-1750 Document Number 2005458. Centre of 20 Forensic Sciences Case submission by 21 Stan Thompson, August 21, 1996. 84 22 P-1751 Document Number 2005459. Centre of 23 Forensic Sciences Case submission by 24 Stan Thompson, August 28, 1996. 85 25
111 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1752 Document Number 1005419. Report of the 4 Centre of Forensic Sciences re. Police 5 shooting received by the SIU, September 6 04, 1996, August 29, 1996 86 7 P-1753 Document Number 1002011. Fax message to 8 Stan Thompson with August 29, 1996 and 9 March 07, 1996 reports of the Centre of 10 Forensic Sciences, August 29, 1996. 87 11 P-1754 Document Number 1005588. Report of the 12 Centre of Forensic Sciences re. Anthony 13 George, Nick Cottrelle. Received by the 14 SIU, November 18, 1996, October 31, 1996. 88 15 P-1755 Document Number 1005559. Report of the 16 Centre of Forensic Sciences re. Death 17 investigation, Anthony George, Nick 18 Cottrelle with fax message from E. Sild 19 to Stan Thompson, April 04, 1997. 90 20 P-1756 Document Number 1005290. Transcript of 21 R. v Ken Deane, Proceedings at trial 22 before Judge H. Fraser, Examination and 23 Cross-Examination of Stan Thompson, 24 April 01, 1997. 90 25
121 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1757 Document Number 2000033. OPP Technical 4 Identification Services Unit Master 5 Exhibit Continuity/Examination list, 6 September 24, 1995. 113 7 P-1758 Document Number 1002404. Special 8 Investigation Unit Exhibit Collection 9 Report, September 07, 1995. 140 10 P-1759 Document Number 2001441. Fax from D/Sgt 11 T. E. Richardson to Supt. T. Parkin re. 12 Ipperwash Prosecutions, February 06, 13 1997. 164 14 P-1760 Aerial digital map of sandy parking lot 15 marked by Ms. Fran Hannahson, June 19, 16 2006. 175 17 P-1761 Hand drawn layout of interior of 18 Hannahson cottage. 178 19 P-1762 Photographs number 0006 and number 0030. 186 20 P-1763 Document Number 1009635. London Free 21 Press article, "Burial Ground Claim 22 Questioned", September 07,1995. 202 23 P-1764 Document Number 2001841. Sarnia Observer 24 article, "One Dead, Two Injured in Shootout 25 at Ipperwash," September 07, 1995. 295
131 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1765 Document Number 1000676. Toronto Globe 4 and Mail article, "Two Reported Shot at 5 Ipperwash Protest," September 07, 1995. 210 6 P-1766 Document Number 000322. Transcript of 7 Audio/video statement of Fran Hannahson, 8 September 07, 1995 227 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
141 --- Upon commencing at 10:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 The Commission -- the Commission recalls 11 as its next witness Mr. Stan Thompson. 12 13 KENNETH STANLEY THOMPSON (Recalled), Sworn 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Good morning, Mr. Thompson. Thank 17 you for returning. 18 A: Good morning, Mr. Millar. You're 19 most welcome. 20 Q: When we were last here, you were here 21 on September 9th, 2004, and we marked your curriculum 22 vitae as Exhibit Number P-18. And since that time I 23 understand that you've done a couple of more things; you 24 were a -- in 2004 a guest lecturer at Agincourt 25 Collegiate in Scarborough. And it was a workshop for
151 student/teachers, Should I Break Up that Fight? Personal 2 Safety in the Schools; is that correct? 3 A: That's right, sir, yes. 4 Q: And in 2006 you were a guest lecturer 5 at St. Lawrence College in Kingston, a -- you presented - 6 - made a presentation to second year Police Foundation 7 students on police ethics? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And it 2005 you appeared as a witness 10 in the Ontario Court of Justice in the case of Sulaman 11 and Wiche, et al? 12 A: That's right, sir. 13 Q: Now, I'd like to take you back to 14 1995 and at Tab 2 of the large book in front of you is a 15 series of -- it's a thick document, it's Inquiry Document 16 1004438. 17 And it's a document that has -- the first 18 part of it is entitled, Follow-up Report, and has a 19 number of reports and then following those reports there 20 are handwritten notes. And if you could turn to the 21 third -- after the second blue piece of paper; are those 22 your notes, sir? 23 A: Yes, sir, they are. 24 Q: Thank you. And can you tell the 25 Commissioner your practice in 1995 with respect to making
161 your notes? 2 A: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, in 1995 it was 3 my customary practice to record my conduct and my 4 activities in relation to SIU matters in what is called a 5 memo book. And this is a small, bound book with -- with 6 numbers, with the pages numbered in addition to field 7 notes which are recorded at the incident scene where memo 8 book notes are impractical and it's important to have a 9 larger piece of paper upon which to write the -- write 10 the notes. 11 In addition the other documentation that's 12 involved is the use of follow-up reports. And, in fact, 13 this document to which you refer is -- is a follow-up 14 report which is a consolidation of all my notes and my 15 activities involving this case. 16 Q: And perhaps we could -- so the notes 17 -- the handwritten notes are made in the small memo book, 18 or a larger book if necessary, and were made 19 contemporaneously or as soon as they're practicable 20 thereafter -- 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: -- the event? And then the document 23 that appears at the first -- page 1 to 37 is a -- the 24 first document because there's some other ones, in 25 effect, this is a report that you made up from your
171 notes? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Or page 1 to 36. And the first 4 document that runs from page 50360 to 50395 has on the 5 thirty-sixth page submitted by Stan Thompson, October 6 2nd, 1995, and it indicates it was typed by Laura Bowman 7 on October 6th, 1995. 8 And that's, in effect, a -- a chronology 9 of what you did? 10 A: I is, sir. 11 Q: And then there are some other 12 reports, the next at page 50396. And I'm looking at the 13 page that's at the very top left-hand corner and Inquiry 14 Document 1004438; that's a report from February 20, 1996. 15 Then there's another report October 1, October 2, 1995, 16 October 3, 1995, October 4, 1996. And then the next one 17 that starts at 50401 November 13th, 1995 and then we're 18 back to February 18th, 1996. 19 And these were reports that you did based 20 on your notes? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And I would ask that this document, 23 Inquiry Document 1004438, to be marked, collectively, the 24 next exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1734, Your Honour.
181 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1734: Document Number 1004438. 2 Follow-up reports, Exhibit 3 reports, handwritten notebook 4 entries (September 07, 5 October 02, 1995) and field 6 notes of Stan Thompson. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And if you turn back to Tab 1 for a 10 moment. And this is Inquiry Document 1004473. And it's 11 a anticipated -- statement of anticipated evidence that 12 was created for you, Mr. Thompson? 13 A: Yes, it was created for me at my 14 direction. 15 Q: And do you adopt the -- this 16 statement today? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 19 the next exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1735, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1735: Document Number 1004473. 24 Anticipated evidence of 25 Kenneth Stanley Thompson
191 (undated). 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, my understanding as you told us 5 last time that as a member of the Special Investigations 6 Unit you were a qualified forensic identification exer -- 7 investigator, a technical traffic collision analyst and a 8 crime scene examiner; is that correct? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And the -- in 1995 your first contact 11 with this matter was on September the 7th when you were 12 called by Wayne Allen, the lead investigator, and asked 13 to be part of the team; is that correct? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And can you tell us what you did 16 initially as part of the team? 17 A: Yes, sir. The first -- the first 18 order of business was to travel to my home. I was on 19 holidays at the time and arrange for my SIU vehicle to be 20 properly equipped and I attended the SIU offices in 21 Toronto for further briefing with supervisors. 22 And subsequently later that day I 23 travelled to Strathroy, Ontario. 24 Q: And the -- I understand you arrived 25 in Strathroy around 4:00 p.m.?
201 A: That's right. 2 Q: And at the time you attended on Cecil 3 Bernard George and photographed his injuries? 4 A: Yes I did, sir. 5 Q: And we've marked some of those 6 photographs as part of Exhibit P-24, Commissioner. We 7 marked those the last time. 8 And then I understand that later that 9 afternoon you attended at the Strathroy, OPP Detachment 10 and photographed the injuries of Nicholas Cottrelle? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And those photographs again, 13 Commissioner, appear as part of Exhibit P-24. And the -- 14 at approximately 9:00 p.m. on September present -- 7th, 15 1995 you were at a briefly led by Wayne Allen who 16 provided information to you and others about the 17 circumstances surrounding the death of Dudley George; is 18 that correct? 19 A: Yes sir. 20 Q: And the -- on 11:18 p.m. on September 21 the 7th, you met Mark Dew of the OPP who I understand was 22 to be the SIU Liaison?? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And Mark Dew turned over seven (7) 25 firearms to you; is that correct?
211 A: Yes he did. 2 Q: And those are the firearms that you 3 subsequently photographed and were made -- they're part 4 of Exhibit P-24? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you just tell us a bit, what 7 you did with those firearms? 8 A: Firstly, the firearms were 9 photographed as you mentioned, sir. They were examined 10 visually and I reported the serial numbers and pertinent 11 descriptions of the firearms for the purposes of creating 12 a forensic exhibit list. 13 The one (1) firearm in particular, had a 14 laser site on it. And this particular laser site was 15 removed and turned over to the Ontario Provincial Police 16 TRU Team officers due to their very great concern over 17 the fact that it was the only site that was available for 18 their firearms at that particular time. 19 However, prior to releasing that 20 particular laser site, I did photograph the firearm. 21 This firearm was the firearm identified as item number 22 501. 23 Q: And item 501 was an HK-MP5 .9 mm 24 rifle? 25 A: That's right.
221 Q: And that was identified as having 2 been assigned to Constable Ken Deane? 3 A: Yes sir. 4 Q: And then the second firearm was 5 identified as 502, again it was a -- this was a HK-33 E-3 6 rifle of .223 calibre and it was a firearm assigned to 7 Constable Mark Beauchesne? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And the third firearm was a HK-MP5SD, 10 which means that it had a suppression device on it? 11 A: Yes it had a silencing device on it 12 which suppresses the sound emanating from the firearm. 13 Q: And again it was a .9 mm rifle and it 14 was the rifle assigned to Constable William Klym? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: The fourth firearm which was assigned 17 the number 504, was a Smith and Wesson .38 calibre -- 18 special calibre revolver? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And it was identified as having been 21 assigned to Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And the fifth firearm was -- you 24 examined, was assigned the number 505 and it was a Sig 25 Sauer model P229 .40 caliber semi-automatic pistol; is
231 that correct? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And it had been assigned to Sergeant 4 George Hebblethwaite? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And the sixth firearm was assigned 7 the number 506 and it was again a Sig Sauer model P229 8 semi-automatic .40 calibre pistol, and this one had been 9 assigned to Constable Kevin York? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the seventh firearm was again a 12 Sig Sauer model P229 semi-automatic pistol, a .40 13 calibre, and it was assigned to Constable Brian Sharp? 14 A: That's right, sir. 15 Q: And I understand that you left the 16 Forest Detachment about 3:05 in the morning, the morning 17 of September 8th, and took the seven (7) firearms with 18 you? 19 A: Yes, I did and I -- in addition I 20 protected them in protective boxes and -- and sealed the 21 -- the firearms in those boxes. 22 Q: And the -- and then we'll come to it, 23 but you ultimately turned those over to a forensic 24 investigator from the Centre for Forensic Sciences? 25 A: I believe I turned over two (2) of
241 the firearms to -- 2 Q: Okay. We'll take that -- I'll stop 3 for a moment. 4 So the next thing you did on the morning 5 of September 8th you attended the autopsy? 6 A: Yes, I did, sir. 7 Q: And the autopsy was conducted in 8 London? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you attended along with Investor 11 Don -- Investigator Don Andrews? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there were some representatives 14 from the OPP? 15 A: Yes, there -- there were, sir. 16 Q: And as I understand it that -- during 17 the course of the autopsy a -- fragments of a bullet were 18 found; is that correct? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And among other things a gunshot 21 residue test was administered by Constable Stewart? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And the -- can you tell us, with 24 respect to the bullet that was found, can you describe 25 the -- what was found, Mr. Thompson?
251 A: The bullet which was found in the 2 body of Dudley George was recovered by Dr. Michael 3 Shkrum. It consisted of a, I believe a lead core and a - 4 - and a piece of jacket material, copper -- copper- 5 coloured jacket material which was consistent with that 6 of a .9 millimetre parabellum projectile or bullet. 7 Q: And when you -- what is the reference 8 to parabellum? What's that? 9 A: A parabellum bullet is more commonly 10 referred to as ball ammunition, having a round -- a round 11 frontal surface on the -- the bullet as compared to a 12 truncated or a hollow point projectile. 13 Q: And a hollow point projectile, as I 14 understand it, is a projectile that expands when it hits 15 the object that it strikes? 16 A: That's right in a -- in a much 17 greater fashion than the .9 millimetre parabellum ball 18 ammunition. 19 Q: And so this was not a hollow point 20 bullet but a -- you call it, parabellum bullet? 21 A: That -- that's correct and I might -- 22 and I might qualify the fact that I'm -- I'm not a 23 firearms expert and this was -- this projectile was 24 positively identified by Mr. Finn Nielsen who was also 25 present at the autopsy.
261 Q: And it was Mr. -- it's noted on the 2 bottom of Exhibit -- page 4 of Exhibit P-1735 Mr. Nielsen 3 positively identified the projectile as being a .9 4 millimetre. And as a result of that you turned over to 5 Mr. Nielsen, Items 501 and 503, which were the .9 6 millimetre HKMP-5 rifles; is that correct? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And what was the purpose of turning 9 those two (2) .9 millimetre rifles over to Mr. Nielsen? 10 A: The purpose of this, sir, was to 11 allow Mr. Nielsen to compare the fired projectile found 12 at the autopsy with either of the firearms, 501 or 503, 13 in order to individualize the bullet. 14 Q: And as I understand it that at 15 approximately 5:00 p.m. you left the hospital and the 16 autopsy and went back to Sarnia. And arrived at 17 approximately 8:17 p.m. and you deposited the autopsy 18 exhibits that you had collected into a refrigerated 19 secure storage? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And about 9:00 p.m. on the evening of 22 September the 8th you were advised by Mr. Finn Nielsen of 23 the Centre of Forensic Sciences that he had made a 24 positive identification of the projectile material that 25 had been turned over to him and that's on page 5?
271 A: That's quite correct, sir. Yes. 2 Q: And he identified it as having been 3 fired by the HKMP-5 rifle, identified as number 501? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And number 501 was the rifle assigned 6 to Constable Kenneth Deane? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And then you briefed Mr. Allen of the 9 results of Mr. Nielsen's findings. And then I note on 10 September 9th, 1995 you released -- you were authorized 11 to release the firearms 502, 504, 505, 506 and 507 back 12 to the OPP? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And you did that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then you picked up the 17 refrigerated autopsy exhibits and what did you do with 18 those? 19 A: Yes, the refrigerated autopsy 20 exhibits were ultimately transported to the Special 21 Investigations Unit in Toronto and subsequently submitted 22 to the Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto for further 23 scientific examination. 24 Q: And we have part of the book which 25 we'll come to with the results of those examinations.
281 Then on September 8th -- excuse me, September 9th, I 2 understand as well, that you attended at the OPP 3 Detachment in Strathroy? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what did you do there, sir? 6 A: Yes, I met with Constable Ron Middel, 7 spelled M-I-D-D-E-L, of the Ontario Provincial Police. 8 He is a forensic identification examiner as well for the 9 Ontario Provincial Police and he directed me and escorted 10 me to the garage at the OPP station in Strathroy. 11 The garage was sealed with forensic seals. 12 However, at about 3:42 in the afternoon Constable Middel 13 and I entered the garage and found a 1977 white Chevrolet 14 Impala inside the garage. 15 Q: And the white Chevrolet Impala is -- 16 if you turn, you've got the book of photographs there, I 17 think it should be P-24, Tab 40, you've got -- and it's 18 photograph 19.0A is -- it's the very last photograph, Mr. 19 Thompson. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes, that's the vehicle that I found 24 inside the garage. 25 Q: And the next photograph, 19.1A, is
291 the same vehicle but from the front? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And you examined the vehicle and did 4 you do any tests with respect to the vehicle? Or did -- 5 A: I didn't personally do any tests. 6 However, Constable Middel utilized gunshot residue -- 7 gunshot residue kit on various locations of the vehicle. 8 Q: And just stopping here for a moment, 9 I know that you're not an expert on ballistics, but a 10 gunshot residue kit, I understand, is a kit that's 11 supplied to police services and to the SIU by the Centre 12 for Forensic Sciences? 13 A: Yes, that's right. The kits are 14 prepared. They're serial numbered -- they have serial 15 numbers attached to them. And they're assigned to police 16 agencies and the SIU for the purpose of gathering gunshot 17 residue evidence in the field. 18 Q: And gunshot residue is a compound 19 that's made up of lead, barium and antimony, is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes sir. 22 Q: And as a result of the analysis of 23 the sample the -- on a layman's -- from a layman's point 24 of view the lab attempts to determine whether there's 25 lead, barium or antimony present?
301 A: Yes, that is correct. 2 Q: And what is the -- how long will 3 gunshot residue remain on an object whether it's a 4 person, person's hand, or on an object such as an 5 automobile? 6 A: Gunshot residue is a very short-lived 7 item of evidence, sir. It can be -- it can deter -- 8 deterioration can occur from various means including 9 weather, physical disturbance or simply the wind removing 10 it. Time is of the essence when it comes to gathering 11 gunshot residue evidence. 12 Q: And it can on a person -- if a person 13 washes their hands, it can wash away, as well? 14 A: It could, yes. 15 Q: And we'll maybe -- we'll come to it 16 but, do you know what the results of the gunshot residue 17 test with respect to the white Chevrolet were? 18 A: My understanding is that the gunshot 19 residue tests were -- made on the tapings were -- gave 20 negative results with respect to antimony, barium and 21 lead. 22 Q: And that's with respect to the white 23 Chevrolet? 24 A: That is right, yes. 25 Q: And did -- were there gunshot -- the
311 gunshot residue test that was taken with respect to the 2 body of Dudley George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did -- did you take those tests? 5 A: I believe I submitted the test to the 6 Centre of Forensic Sciences, and those tests, as well, 7 came up with negative results with respect to the 8 elements in gunshot residue. 9 Q: Then after you examined the white 10 car, what did you do? The Chevrolet Impala? 11 September 10th you -- and this is part of 12 Exhibit P-1734, you submitted certain samples to -- no, 13 excuse me. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: If you look at Exhibit P-1735 on 18 September the 10th, you spoke to the coroner and 19 requested authorization to submit bodily fluids from Mr. 20 Anthony O'Brien George to the Centre of Forensic Sciences 21 for analysis; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that was done? 24 A: That was done by me. 25 Q: And then on September 11th you had
321 another discussion with Mr. -- Dr. Perkin, the coroner, 2 about whether there was any pre-transfused or pro- 3 transfused blood from Anthony O'Brien George and he said 4 there was not? 5 A: That's right, sir. 6 Q: And on September 12th you met with 7 investigators Jim Kennedy and Don Miller for examining -- 8 for the purposes of examining aerial maps and 9 photographs? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And that was the aerial maps and 12 photographs of the area? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And some which we marked the last 15 time you were here? 16 A: That's right, sir. 17 Q: And then on the -- September 13th, 18 1995, I understand that you obtained from Constable Paul 19 Evans certain exhibits which had been seized by him? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And you also again on that September 22 13th spoke to Dr. Gary Perkin about media videos and the 23 possibility of obtaining them and then you also on that 24 day spoke to Dr. Shkrum, S-H-K-R-U-M, the forensic 25 pathologist with respect to the findings of the
331 investigation; is that correct? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And on the same day you received from 4 Constable Evans, Paul Evans, some items of clothing that 5 had been worn by Mr. Anthony O'Brien George, Nicholas 6 Cottrelle, and Cecil Bernard George; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And they were submitted to the Centre 9 for Forensic Sciences, or at least some of them were I 10 think? 11 A: I believe some of them were, yes. 12 Q: And then the -- on September 14th you 13 participated in a discussion with lead investigator Wade 14 Allen (sic) and as a result you sought a coroner's 15 warrant to obtain the ambulance communication records; is 16 that correct? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And did you ultimately obtained 19 those? 20 A: One (1) of our -- one (1) of our 21 investigators from the Special Investigation obtained -- 22 obtained those items. I don't remember specifically 23 whether it was me myself. 24 Q: But it was a -- when I'm -- by that 25 when I said, "you" I meant that it was obtained by the
341 SIU? 2 A: They were obtained, yes. 3 Q: And then on September 15th, 1995, you 4 attended a briefing at Forest OPP Detachment? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you obtained -- Detective 7 Inspector Goodall turned over statements of police 8 officers and the communications logger tapes; is that 9 correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And at that time Detective Inspector 12 Goodall advised you that the scene might not be available 13 until the following Monday? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And in fact on September 17th you 16 returned to the Ipperwash area and -- or you were 17 notified that the scene examination was scheduled for 18 Monday, September 18th? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And what happened on Monday, 21 September 18th? 22 A: On Monday, September the 18th, we 23 were -- the SIU and the Ontario Provincial Police 24 received information that there had been authorization to 25 examine the -- the shooting scene at East Parkway and
351 Army Camp Road. 2 The -- at about 6:00 in the morning that 3 day the Special Investigations Unit investigative team 4 arrived at the Forest Detachment for a -- for a briefing. 5 And subsequently during that briefing which was conducted 6 by Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix and Acting Sergeant Ken 7 Deane we received the rough details of what the -- what 8 was expected -- we expected to be seeing -- to see at 9 the -- the shooting scene itself. 10 Up until this time no SIU investigators 11 had viewed the shooting scene at East Parkway Drive and 12 Army Camp Road. This briefing was -- was also attended 13 by Forensic Identification Officers from the Ontario 14 Provincial Police as well. And this briefing took the 15 place of what is customarily done as a walk through a 16 forensic scene in the event that the scene is protected 17 and held for SIU investigators in a -- in a normal 18 situation. 19 Q: And a crime scene examination which 20 typically happens when after the -- a potential crime has 21 been committed? 22 A: I'm sorry, sir, would you repeat 23 that? 24 Q: When do you normally examine the 25 crime scene or the potential crime scene?
361 A: As soon after the event as possible - 2 - as humanly possible. It's -- it's most important -- 3 that timing is everything in respect to examination of 4 crime scenes and the protection of evidence is paramount. 5 Q: And what is the effect, if any, of a 6 delay between September 6th and September 18th; in this 7 case approximately twelve (12) days in investigating the 8 crime scene? 9 A: The result is that very -- very 10 valuable evidence can be lost very easily in the briefest 11 of times. And, in particular, during the -- during the 12 time that elapsed in this particular case, the eleven 13 (11) days, there -- there had been -- there was evidence 14 of rain and short-lived evidence was very likely 15 compromised or -- or, indeed, destroyed as -- as a result 16 of weather conditions and the fact that I believe no -- 17 no vehicular traffic was stopped or no pedestrian traffic 18 was stopped in -- in the area. 19 Q: And if a front end loader had been 20 used to move around the sand in the -- in this case, the 21 sandy parking lot, what effect would that have? 22 A: Well, it would certainly change the 23 scene and it would perhaps destroy any relevant, valuable 24 evidence that had been there previously. 25 Q: And -- however, with those
371 limitations it was decided to examine the crime scene on 2 September 18th? 3 A: Yes, indeed. 4 Q: And what did you do? 5 A: After a -- after a briefing with the 6 First Nations people in Kettle Point the SIU 7 investigative team attended with the Ontario Provincial 8 Police investigative team at the shooting scene at East 9 Parkway Drive and -- and Army Camp Road. This was done 10 at about 8:50 in the morning. 11 And my purpose in examining this scene 12 initially was to take video photos of the entire scene to 13 record what was there at the time that we actually 14 arrived. 15 Q: And you did make a video recording? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: And the -- the last time we were here 18 we had a twenty-nine (29) minute recording, Commissioner. 19 Since that time we've got the, what we're told is the 20 master recording that was made by Mr. Thompson on 21 September 18th; and what we've done is had it made into a 22 DVD and Mr. Thompson has looked at the first part of the 23 DVD and identified his voice and identified it as being 24 the copy of the DVD, the copy of the DVD -- the video he 25 made.
381 And rather than play which is -- it's 2 fifty-six (56) minutes and thirty (30) seconds long and 3 it shows, just for the purpose of the record, East 4 Parkway Drive, Army Camp Road, the sandy parking lot, 5 along the sides of both. 6 And there's only audio on the very first 7 part when Mr. Thompson is explaining what he was doing. 8 And I would ask that this DVD copy be marked the next 9 Exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1736, Your 11 Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1736: DVD of video made by Stan 14 Thompson September 18, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLER: 17 Q: And I understand, as well, that you 18 took some of the photographs that we've already marked as 19 part of Exhibit P-24? 20 A: Yes that's right. Some were taken by 21 me and I think the majority were taken by Mr. Don Miller 22 who assisted me and he did these -- took these 23 photographs at my direction. 24 Q: And after you did the video and took 25 photographs of the area, what did you do next?
391 A: The next order of priority on my list 2 of priorities in examining this scene was to take some 3 measurements of relevant items, such a hydro poles and 4 trees and the roadway, in order to recreate or create a 5 drawing, a crime scene drawings, of this particular 6 location. 7 Q: And your notes, actual handwritten 8 notes, appear as part of Exhibit P-1734 after the third 9 blue divider, I think at Tab 2, September 18th, 1995. 10 And these were the field notes I think that you spoke to 11 us about first thing this morning? 12 A: Yes, that's right. 13 Q: And the field notes -- it's page 14 50525 of Inquiry document 1004438, Exhibit P-1734, 15 there's an indication of the video being taken then the 16 Base reference measurements and then another video and 17 then they used a metal detector; is that correct? 18 A: Yes, we used the metal detectors. 19 Actually, there were two (2) of them being utilized at 20 the scene, as well as the OPP who had also at least one 21 (1) metal detector to examine the roadway and the 22 periphery of the road for the purposes of determining 23 where -- if there was firearms evidence and where -- 24 where it was; this would be metallic firearms evidence. 25 Q: And the metal detector examination
401 com -- done by you took -- you started at approximately 2 12:30 p.m. and ended at 5:10 p.m.; is that correct? 3 A: That's right sir, yes. 4 Q: And what did you find? 5 A: There were various fragments of metal 6 found on the south side of East Parkway Drive. 7 Q: And is that the Highway 21 side of 8 East Parkway Drive? 9 A: Yes, sir, it is. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And items 601, 602 and 604 were 12 gathered at the scene. And items 603 and 604 included 13 pop cans, bottle tops, and metallic debris that was 14 deemed at the time to be irrelevant to any firearms 15 evidence. 16 Q: All right. And then what else did 17 you that day? 18 A: I collected the -- the evidence that 19 was found on the roadway and protected it in -- in bags, 20 in addition to examining the hydro pole near the sand 21 berm near the entrance gate of the Park and the large 22 poplar tree that is on the east side of Army Camp Road 23 just south of the hydro pole. 24 Q: You examined the hydro pole and that 25 large poplar?
411 A: I did, yes. 2 Q: And why were you examining that? 3 A: The purpose of examining the -- the 4 tree and the pole was to try to retrieve if there was any 5 evidence there of firearms, i.e. bullets, projectiles, 6 anything that was relative to a bullet being -- striking 7 a -- striking a tree. And as well as visually examining 8 these -- the pole and the tree I used the metal detector 9 to scan the -- the trunk and the -- the pole itself to 10 see if there was anything metallic in either the trunk of 11 the tree or the -- or the hydro pole. 12 And I found no evidence of -- of metallic 13 debris at either location. 14 Q: And why were you focussing on the 15 area that you focussed on, on the south side of East 16 Parkway Drive and -- at the intersection of Army Camp 17 Road and East Parkway? 18 A: The -- in the briefing by Staff 19 Sergeant Lacroix and Acting Sergeant Deane there was an 20 indication to me that there had been some muzzle flashes 21 from that area directed to the west. And in part of the 22 investigation it was determined that shots had been fired 23 towards the -- the sand berm and therefore through 24 deductive reasoning it was -- it was prudent to look in 25 that particular area very extensively for the purposes of
421 trying to find bullets or firearms evidence. 2 Q: And you found...? 3 A: I found -- I found no evidence of -- 4 of any bullets or cartridge cases in -- in the berm area 5 or in the trees. 6 Q: And did you examine the sandy parking 7 lot as part of your work? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And you used the metal detector 10 there? 11 A: I did, yes, sir. 12 Q: And the Ontario Provincial Police, I 13 understand, as well did use metal detectors on the sandy 14 parking lot? 15 A: Yes, they did. 16 Q: And they had -- the Ontario 17 Provincial Police identified a number of items from the 18 sandy parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were they turned over to you or 21 kept by them? 22 A: I don't remember them being turned 23 over to me, however the information concerning what they 24 were was -- was given to us and all -- all evidence was - 25 - was shared by us as far as the identification of the
431 evidence and what scientific examination if any was to be 2 conducted on the -- on the particular findings. 3 Q: And did you examine any trees on the 4 northwest side of the intersection at Army Camp Road and 5 East Parkway? 6 A: The -- the whole scene was examined 7 extensively by myself and -- and SIU investigators in -- 8 in searching with the metal detector. And visually all 9 relevant trees and large items were examined very 10 carefully in -- in the search for any evidence of 11 firearms or -- or bullet projectiles striking the items. 12 In particular there was a large roadway 13 sign indicating community locations and it was examined. 14 The fences were examined in the area and anything that 15 would be likely to interfere with the travel of a -- of a 16 bullet. 17 And I -- that search was to no avail. I - 18 - I didn't find any evidence of projectiles striking 19 trees. 20 Q: Or the sign? 21 A: Or the sign, in particular. I must 22 add that bullet -- bullets striking trees are very, very 23 difficult to -- to determine sometimes. Sometimes 24 they'll leave quite a noticeable scar. Sometimes the 25 bark will almost envelope around the entry of the bullet
441 hole and make it very difficult to see. 2 However, visually there was -- there was 3 no evidence that I or my team found in relation to 4 bullets striking trees or items from a -- fired from a -- 5 from an easterly direction, if you will. 6 Q: Okay. Coming from an easterly 7 direction? 8 A: Coming from an easterly direction. 9 Q: And then the -- I understand that you 10 finished at the scene at East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 11 Road on September 18th at approximately 6:00 p.m. and 12 then returned on September 19th; is that correct? 13 A: Yes, that's right. 14 Q: And what did you do on September 15 19th? 16 A: On September the 19th the SIU and 17 Ontario Provincial Police investigative teams were 18 permitted to examine a yellow school bus and a brown 19 Chrysler vehicle within the Park area for the purposes of 20 examining bullet strikes and bullet holes. 21 Q: And we looked at... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: ...some photographs the last time you
451 were here, and they're marked as part of Exhibit P-24. 2 And can you tell us -- give us a little more detail of 3 what you did with respect to the examination, Mr. 4 Thompson. 5 And if you look at Tab 12 of Exhibit P-24 6 there's photograph Mag 22 10-1 and that's a yellow school 7 bus and the -- there are a number of photographs that 8 follow of the yellow school bus? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Can you tell -- and your notes, 11 again, appear as part of Exhibit P-1734, almost at the 12 back. If you go the second blue page from the back 13 you'll find the beginning of your notes for September 14 18th and I -- there are you notes for September 19th. It 15 starts at page 50527. 16 And you've some drawings as well. If you 17 go to the very back of that tab. 18 A: The very back of the tab, yes, sir. 19 Q: The next tab, sir, Tab 2. Are you -- 20 A: Oh Tab 2, yes. 21 Q: Yeah, go to the very end. And then 22 just come forward. There's a blue divider -- 23 A: Thank you. 24 Q: -- and now go to the next blue 25 divider forward. Mr. Thompson, you have to go the next
461 one back. 2 There, that's September 18th and then two 3 (2) pages in is September 19th. 4 A: Yes I have it. 5 Q: And can you tell us what you did? 6 A: Yes, the Chrysler New Yorker vehicle 7 was examined first at about 9:05 in the morning by Mr. 8 Miller and myself. The car was photographed and video 9 photos were taken, as well. 10 And the bullet contact marks and bullet 11 holes on the -- apparent bullet contact marks and bullet 12 holes on the vehicle were recorded and sketched with 13 respect to identifying approximately where they came 14 from, or the direction that they -- the approximate 15 direction from which they came from and the approximate 16 angle at which they -- at which the bullet holes entered 17 the skin of the -- of the automobile. 18 Q: And I note that part of this document 19 at P-1734 has a sketch of the bus but not of the car. 20 Did you do a sketch of the car, as well? 21 A: I believe Mr. Miller -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- did a sketch of the automobile 24 which -- 25 Q: And what was -- what did you conclude
471 as a result of your examination of the car? 2 A: I believe there was four (4) bullet 3 holes on the left or driver's side of the -- of the 4 Chrysler vehicle. And if I might refer to the -- one (1) 5 of the photographs. 6 Q: The -- sure. The photographs start 7 at Tab 26, of the Chrysler. 8 A: Thank you. 9 Q: And the photograph I believe, that 10 you're looking for is the photograph at Tab 31. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes photograph at Tab 31 shows four 15 (4) bullet holes, two (2) in the left front fender of the 16 Chrysler vehicle and three (3) in the left driver's side 17 door. 18 Q: So is there five (5) all together? 19 A: I'm sorry -- there -- no I'm sorry, 20 there are four (4). 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: There are four (4) all together. The 23 driver's door was quite dirty and I was attributing a -- 24 some dirt or some damage to the car as one (1) of the 25 bullet holes. There were two (2) in the rear portion of
481 the fender and two (2) in the -- in the door. 2 Q: And you're looking at Mag photograph 3 45, it's photograph 7.3; Mag photograph 46, photograph 4 7.20; and Mag photograph 47, photograph 7.16; is that 5 correct? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And you can see in the last one the 8 four (4) holes? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Okay. And then what did you do? 11 A: These -- these bullet holes were 12 diagrammed and one (1) of the -- one (1) of the bullet 13 holes was photographed at close range in mac -- using 14 macro photography in order to show the angularity of the 15 impact. 16 Q: And that's the photograph at -- 17 A: That would be -- 18 Q: -- Tab 32, photograph 48, 8.19? 19 A: Yes, that's right. 20 Q: And what does that photograph show? 21 A: That shows the angle at which the 22 bullet entered the -- entered the automobile door skin. 23 And it -- that photograph is the lower bullet hole in the 24 driver's door and it's a close up showing that the 25 projectile entered the door skin of the car on an angle
491 from forward of the position of the hole. 2 Q: So that -- 3 A: So it's -- if I can paraphrase that, 4 the shooter would probably have been forward of that door 5 when the -- when the shot was -- 6 Q: Fired. 7 A: -- directed at the door. 8 Q: Okay. And then what else did you do, 9 Mr. Thompson, with respect to the car? 10 A: With respect to the car, sir? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: The -- the interior of the car was 13 examined to determine if any of these projectiles had 14 entered the -- the passenger area of the car and none 15 were found inside the car. 16 I understand that there was a -- a 17 projectile found I think in the interior cavity of the 18 door, that may have been recovered by the Ontario 19 Provincial Police and was -- was examined at a later time 20 by the Centre of Forensic Sciences but as far as the 21 projectiles entering the passenger area there was no 22 evidence of that happening. 23 Q: And did you or Mr. Miller or whoever 24 was with you do any -- take any gunshot residue test? 25 A: No, we did not, however I believe the
501 Ontario Provincial Police did. 2 Q: And I know we'll come to those later, 3 but do you know what the results of those gunshot residue 4 tests were? 5 A: The results were shared with SIU 6 investigators and again they were negative for the 7 elements of gunshot residue. 8 Q: Okay. And after you finished with 9 the car you examined the bus? 10 A: Yes, that's right. 11 Q: And the car was examined for about 12 three (3) hours; is that...? 13 A: Approximately -- approximately that 14 time. I don't have a -- 15 Q: There's a time on the next page of 16 it -- 17 A: Yes, that's right, that's right. The 18 -- actually the combination of the car -- 19 Q: And the bus? 20 A: -- and the bus took us until about 21 fourteen (14) -- fifteen (15) hours, 2:15 in the 22 afternoon. 23 Q: Now, the bus, can you tell us what 24 you did with the bus. And the photographs are part of 25 Exhibit P-24; start at Tab 12
511 A: Tab...? 2 Q: 12 of -- 3 A: Thank you. 4 Q: -- that book. 5 A: The first order of business with the 6 bus was to take exterior photographs of the bus and to 7 diagram any damage relevant to any firearms evidence or 8 gunshots or bullet holes in the -- in the bus itself. 9 The damage was recorded in a field sketch 10 with -- with the particular relevant dimensions which 11 were measured off the bus itself in particular. 12 Q: And those appear as part of Exhibit 13 P-1734 starting at page 50529? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: In addition after examining the 17 exterior of the bus, the interior of the bus was examined 18 and -- and searched for the purposes of determining 19 whether firearms evidence could be found inside. There - 20 - there was no evidence insofar as cartridge cases or 21 bullets found inside that vehicle, however there were 22 bullet holes in the exterior of the vehicle. 23 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 24 where the bullet holes were, sir, in the exterior of the 25 vehicle?
521 A: Yes. I -- I should qualify that, Mr. 2 Commissioner. There was a bullet hole found at the lower 3 edge of the first window behind the folding entrance 4 doors on the bus. 5 And that is shown in Tab 19, photograph 6 number 32. 7 Q: At 11.4 and that's -- you can see, 8 that's on the folding door of the bus? 9 A: No, sir, that's on the lower edge of 10 the sliding -- or -- or the window is -- actually that is 11 the fixed portion of the window, the lower edge of the 12 window frame in the first window behind or to the rear of 13 the entrance doors of the bus. 14 Q: And you can see that window on -- at 15 Tab 16, Exhibit P-24, Mag Photo 30, 11.0; is that 16 correct? 17 A: I'm sorry, repeat that, please? 18 Q: Tab 16? 19 A: Tab 16. Tab 16 I have as a Mag 29. 20 Q: All right. And if you could go to 21 the next -- there should be a -- 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Oh, I see it. It's -- it's Tab 17,
531 Mag 30, 11.0. 2 Q: Yes. And that shows the picture that 3 had the bullet hole in it? 4 A: Yes. That's an overview photograph 5 of the bullet hole in the lower edge of the door frame. 6 And it also shows an overview of the upper left window of 7 the folding door being broken out. 8 Q: And did you -- how did that door, 9 that -- the window in the door come to be broken out? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: And did you find any other bullet 12 holes in the vehicle? 13 A: Yes. There were two (2) -- two (2) 14 bullet holes -- apparent bullet holes in the driver's 15 seat area. 16 Q: And if you turn to Tab 20 -- it 17 should be 22 and 23, Mag Photos 35 and 36, photos 13.4 18 and 11.5. 19 A: Yes. And these holes, the -- show 20 the side of the driver's seat and the back of the 21 driver's seat which would face the driver's back. And 22 these holes are consistent in alignment with the bullet 23 hole, previously mentioned,, in the door -- in the window 24 frame of the first window behind the entrance door of the 25 bus.
541 Q: Okay. And then at Tab 24 there's a 2 photo, Mag 37, 11.7. And -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- what, if anything, did you find on 5 that window? 6 A: That is an apparent bullet strike, 7 it's not a bullet hole, that impacted the window frame 8 which is near the centre of the photograph, but did not 9 protrude through the -- through the frame. 10 And my theory at the time and -- and to 11 this day, is that the bullet impact may have occurred by 12 -- by means of a bullet breaking the glass in the 13 entrance door and -- 14 Q: Right. You mean -- 15 A: -- by impacting with the window 16 frame. 17 Q: Okay. And I note that the window 18 below, where the bullet strike is, is broken as well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the -- did you find any other 21 bullet holes in the bus? 22 A: No sir. 23 Q: Now, there's a note at -- if you look 24 at your drawings, your sketches, the second sketch of the 25 bus it shows the driver side of the bus and there's a
551 note that --one can see the note where in the window that 2 you just described and then there's a note: 3 "Forward, by the open window." 4 A: Yes, that's right. 5 Q: What's that refer to, sir? 6 A: It refers to the driver's sliding 7 window as being slid in a rearward position. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And the front half of the window, in 10 fact, was open. 11 Q: Okay. And you indicated that you 12 examined the inside of the bus and you took photos and 13 we've seen those photos before. But if I could ask you 14 just to look at Mag 29 which is -- should be at Tab 15 of 15 your book? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you see that Mag 29 photo 18 13.12? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: And that's the backseat of the 21 driver's seat, showing the back of the driver's seat? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you observe anything in the 24 back of that seat -- did you observe anything of note on 25 the back of the seat?
561 A: Not to my recollection, sir. 2 Q: Then after you finished the 3 examination of the bus, what did you do? 4 A: The -- at about 14:15, I think, in 5 the afternoon, we concluded our investigation of the bus 6 and car, which had been allowed to us. We were on a time 7 constraint as far of examination of the vehicles. 8 Q: Okay. And then on September 20th, 9 1995 I understand that you returned to the intersection 10 and took some measurements. And if you turn the next 11 page of that same Tab, Tab -- Tab 2, just go back to the 12 first -- that one, now turn the page. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And those are measurements that you 15 took on September 20th? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Document 50525 shows field notes -- 20 Q: 50535. 21 A: I'm sorry. 22 Q: That's okay. 23 A: Oh, yes, I have it here. Yes, that 24 is a chart or an on scene measurement record of the 25 measurements that I took on September the 20th.
571 Q: And while you were there did you make 2 any other observations? Did you look at other things 3 while you were there on that day? 4 A: Yes. It was -- I believe at that 5 time I examined buildings in the vacant property near the 6 southwest corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 7 Drive. 8 Q: And there were -- there were three 9 (3), I believe three (3) buildings there that we've seen, 10 but the -- there were -- it was on the side south of East 11 Parkway to the west of Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you find any evidence of -- 14 what did you find when you looked at those buildings? 15 A: In particular, Miller and I were 16 interested in any evidence of bullet holes and we looked 17 very, very carefully at the -- at the buildings and did 18 not find any evidence of -- of bullet holes anywhere in 19 the -- in the perimeter of the building. 20 Q: And if I could ask you to go to Tab 2 21 of Exhibit P-124 -- I mean P-24, you should have at that 22 Tab 2, Mag 4, Photo 323. 23 A: Tab again, please? 24 Q: Tab 2, sir. 25 A: Yes.
581 Q: And that -- is that Mag 4? 2 A: That's Mag 4, yes, sir. 3 Q: And the field that you're referring 4 to is on the upper left-hand side of that photograph? 5 A: Yes, that's right, the -- 6 Q: And the -- the buildings are -- you 7 just -- you can't see them? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: Okay. And then you drew from the 10 measurements you took on September 20th the diagram of 11 the scene that we marked the last time you were here as 12 Exhibit P-23? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Then what happened next? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I note at page 10 of Exhibit P-1735 19 you, on September 21st, attended at the Sarnia Police 20 Headquarters, collected exhibits and returned to Toronto. 21 And on September 29th you attended at the Centre of 22 Forensic Science and submitted items which were collected 23 from the autopsy of Anthony O'Brien George for the 24 purpose of forensic analysis? 25 A: Yes, sir.
591 Q: And then you -- on October 2nd you 2 had a meeting at Kettle -- Kettle Point. And on October 3 3rd, as I understand it from your notes, you obtained 4 some firearms cartridge cases, pellets, and liquor 5 containers and gun wrappers; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, that's right. 7 Q: And that was -- you obtained those 8 from Mr. Marvin -- Marvin Conner in London? 9 A: Yes, that's right. 10 Q: And Mr. Conner had been part of the 11 investigation team on September 18th and 19th? 12 A: That's true. 13 Q: And perhaps that would be an 14 appropriate time to take the morning break. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 16 We'll take a morning break now. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:22 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:41 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.
601 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: If I could take you back for a moment 4 to Tab 2, Mr. Thompson, Exhibit P-1735, page 11. And I 5 indicated that, and this was my fault, that on October 6 3rd Mr. Marvin Connor had given you some evidence. In 7 fact, he simply just told you about the evidence; is that 8 correct? 9 A: Could you give me the page number on 10 that again, sir, please? 11 Q: Page 11, sir. 12 A: Page 11. 13 Q: On Tab 2 -- Tab 1, excuse me. That's 14 my fault. Tab 1. 15 A: Yes, that's right. 16 Q: And you provided to us a copy of a 17 document entitled, "Exhibit Report," and it's not in the 18 database. And we provided copies to My Friends, perhaps 19 we could give one (1) copy to the Commissioner -- oh, you 20 should have a copy, Commissioner, and the Registrar 21 should as well. 22 Can you tell us what this document is Mr. 23 Thompson? 24 A: Yes. It's the master record of the 25 collection of relevant physical forensic evidence and any
611 evidence in a -- in an SIU mandated case a 2 And it itemizes the continuity and the 3 description of the particular items that were collected. 4 The -- each item is designated a number and that number 5 is unique. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. And the -- I 7 would ask that this be marked the next exhibit, sir? And 8 we'll -- 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1737. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-1737. And we'll 11 have to, over the lunch break, there's an exhibit copy -- 12 P-1737? 13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's some problems 15 at the last three (3) pages which we need to just 16 straighten out. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1737: Special Investigations Unit 19 Exhibit report by Stan 20 Thompson, September 1995 fo 21 April 1997. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Now, if I -- could you please turn to 25 Tab 3 of the book in front of you?
621 A: Yes. 2 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 2005451, 3 and this appears to be a submission by you to the Centre 4 for Forensic Sciences; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And this is with respect to the 7 examination of the bullet fragments in comparison with 8 the two (2) rifles? 9 A: That's right, sir. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 11 that be marked the next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1738, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1738: Document Number 2005451. 15 Centre of Forensic Sciences 16 Case submission by Stan 17 Thompson, September 08, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And at Tab 4 is Inquiry Document 21 1002012, and this, again, is a submission by you. This 22 one's dated September -- it's received September 29th, 23 1995 and it's a submission by you of certain samples to 24 the Centre for Forensic Sciences? 25 A: Yes.
631 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would ask that be 2 the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: 1739, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1739: Document Number 1002012. 6 Centre of Forensic Sciences, 7 Case submission by Stan 8 Thompson, September 29, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And at Tab 5 is a copy of Inquiry 12 Document 1002005, and this is a submission by, it 13 appears, the Constable Evans of the OPP and it was dated 14 October 16th, 1995. Did you get a copy of this, sir? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could mark 17 that the next exhibit? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1740, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1740: Document Number 1002005. 21 Centre of Forensic Sciences 22 Case submission by P.J. 23 Evans, October 16, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
641 Q: And at Tab 6 there's a copy of 2 Inquiry Document 2001 -- I mean, 2000140 and it's a 3 report of the Centre for Forensic Sciences with respect 4 to -- dated October 20, 1995 with respect to the gunshot 5 residue tests in relation to Mr. George -- Anthony 6 O'Brien George and Mr. Nicholas Cottrelle; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: And did you receive a copy of this, 10 sir? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And these -- this report indicates 13 that with respect to the gunshot residue from the hands 14 of Mr. Dudley George and Mr. Nicholas Cottrelle, there 15 were not -- residue particles were not identified? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And the -- with respect to the 18 clothing, items C-33 and C-34, tape and gauze from 19 Nicholas Cottrelle could not be tested? 20 A: That's right, they didn't meet the 21 criteria for submission, I suppose, by the Centre of 22 Forensic Sciences. 23 Q: And then C-31, one (1) black helmet 24 with a full plastic face shield, and it indicates: 25 "Thirteen (13) small areas of damage
651 were found on the top and side regions 2 of the helmet. These areas range in 3 size from barely visible to 4 approximately 8 millimetre by 3 5 millimetre. No bullet material was 6 identified on the helmet or the face 7 shield. The cause of the damaged 8 areas could not be determined." 9 And you are aware that a helmet had been 10 submitted for examination? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 13 exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1741 Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1741: Document Number 2000140. 17 Report of The Centre of 18 Forensic Sciences re. Anthony 19 O'Brien George and Nicholas 20 Cottrelle, October 20, 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLER: 23 Q: And at Tab 7, there's a copy of 24 Exhibit P-380. And did you receive a copy of this; it's 25 the analysis of the blood?
661 A: Yes, I remember receiving this. 2 Q: And at Tab 9, this is Inquiry 3 Document 1002934, it's dated December 6th, 1995, the 4 report of the Centre for Forensic Sciences, did -- you're 5 not shown as having received a copy of this report, Mr. 6 Thompson, did you? 7 A: Would you give me the Inquiry 8 document number, please? 9 Q: 1002934. It's at Tab 9. Oh, yes, 10 you are, excuse me, copies to W.I. Harding and Stan 11 Thompson. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you -- and it's actually 14 received by the SIU on December 14th, 1995? 15 A: That's right, yes. 16 Q: Perhaps we could mark this the next 17 Exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1742 Your Honour. 19 MR. DERRY MILLER: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1742: Document Number 1002934. 22 Report of The Centre of 23 Forensic Sciences, received 24 by the SIU, December 14, 25 1995, December 06, 1995.
671 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLER: 3 Q: And then at Tab 10, Inquiry Document 4 1005654, it's a report dated January 9, 1995 -- 1996, 5 excuse me, and it was received by the SIU on January 6 12th, 1996 according to the date stamp. And you received 7 a copy of this? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And this is -- reports on the rifles 10 and cartridges; is that correct? 11 A: Yes, that's right. 12 Q: And at the top of page 2, item F-151: 13 "One (1) envelope with one (1) fired 14 copper jacketed projectile in it." 15 And the results of examination: 16 "This is a fired .9 millimetre 17 Parabellum calibre projectile jacket." 18 It was fired from item F-503, which was, I 19 think, Constable Klym's long rifle? 20 A: Yes, that's right. 21 Q: And then P-151 is the bullet that was 22 received from -- removed from Dudley George and it's 23 described as: 24 "One (1) vial with one (1) fired copper 25 jacketed projectile in it."
681 And the results of the examination: 2 "This is a fired .9 millimetre 3 parabellum calibre projectile." 4 It was fired from item F501 which was 5 Kenneth Deane's rifle. Do you see that? 6 A: Yes, I do. That's correct. 7 Q: And that -- the Parabellum is what 8 you described for us earlier this morning as being the 9 rounded one as opposed to the hollow point one? 10 A: That's right? 11 Q: I would ask that this document be 12 marked the next exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1743, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1743: Document Number 1005654. 16 Report of The Centre of 17 Forensic Sciences re. Death 18 investigation, received by 19 the SIU, January 12, 1996, 20 January 09, 1996. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then at Tab 11, the copy of Inquiry 24 Document 1002927, and it's dated January 29th, 1996, and 25 it's a report from the Centre for Forensic Sciences, and
691 a note you received a copy of this, sir. 2 A: Yes, sir, I did. 3 Q: And this report's with respect to the 4 DNA sampling? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the sample was -- the conclusion 7 was that the sample on the driver's seat of the school 8 bus is -- was entirely consistent with originating from 9 Nicholas Cottrelle? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And Dudley George was excluded as 12 the -- 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: -- as the source of the sample? I 15 would ask that this be marked the next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1744, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1744: Document Number 1002927. 19 Report of The Centre of 20 Forensic Sciences re. Death 21 investigation, received by 22 the SIU, February 12, 1996, 23 January 29, 1996. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
701 Q: And at Tab -- we'll come to that in a 2 moment. 3 Now, in... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: If I could take you back to P-1735 8 and to page 11? 9 And I note that on February 20th, 1996 you 10 attended at the OPP Headquarters in London, Ontario. And 11 what was the purpose of this attendance? 12 A: This was arranged as a demonstration 13 of the types of muzzle flashes that would be seen by an 14 observer in a darkened, controlled environment. And it 15 was essentially to help investigators understand what 16 muzzle flashes look like and what they sound like in 17 different perspectives when persons view them at 18 different angles. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: There were several firearms used in 21 this test. It was a controlled test by the TRU Team and 22 a -- an HK-33 .223 rifle was used. A mini Ruger 14 .223 23 rifle was used, a .308 calibre sniper -- sniper rifle was 24 used, and a .22 calibre rifle was used to demonstrate 25 muzzle flash or absence of muzzle flash, as the case
711 might be. 2 Q: And you created a video of that? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And it lasted -- the demonstration 5 lasted until about 8:00 p.m.? 6 A: That's right, sir, yes. 7 Q: And what, if anything, did you or the 8 SIU do as a result of this demonstration, that you're 9 aware? 10 A: It was -- it was held for evidence. 11 It was taken into consideration. However, at the end of 12 the day the -- the muzzle flash information didn't really 13 assist us too much in this investigation. 14 Q: And then I would ask you to turn to 15 Tab 14, please. And -- 16 A: Fourteen (14)? 17 Q: Yes. Now, Tab 14 is Inquiry Document 18 1002012 and it's a submission dated April 24, 1996 and it 19 refers to Exhibits 706, 707, 716, 717 and you were 20 requesting certain work to be done. 21 A: That's right. These items, I 22 understand, were turned over to the SIU by First Nations 23 people and -- 24 Q: And -- 25 A: Sorry?
721 Q: Then you will note on the next 2 document, at Tab 15, is a copy of Inquiry Document 3 2005456, which is similar to 1002012 but has some 4 additional handwriting? 5 A: Yes, that's right. 6 Q: And the -- it indicates at the bottom 7 that certain items were received directly from you on 8 April 26th, 1996? 9 A: Yes. Item number 503, an MP5 10 firearm, was turned over directly to Mr. Finn Nielsen, I 11 believe, at the Centre for Forensic Sciences. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could mark 13 Inquiry Document 1002012 as the next exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1745, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1745: Document Number 1002012. 17 Centre of Forensic Sciences 18 Case submission by Stan 19 Thompson, April 24, 1996. 20 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then 2005456 is 22 the next one. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1746, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1746: Document Number 2005456.
731 Centre of Forensic Sciences, 2 Case submission by Stan 3 Thompson with additional 4 handwritten notes, April 24, 5 1996. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And there's a reference on both 1745 9 and 1746: 10 "Bullet from tire." 11 Do you know what that refers to, Mr. 12 Thompson? 13 A: What -- 14 Q: F716 at the bottom of the page, sir? 15 A: F716, the 'F' designation indicates 16 that this -- this bullet was to be examined by the 17 firearms section of the Centre for Forensic Sciences. 18 And as I recall, the bullet had been retrieved from the 19 left rear tire of the brown Chrysler vehicle which had 20 been earlier examined in the Park. 21 Q: Okay. Then at Tab 16 is a letter to 22 you from Mr. Nielsen, N-I-E-L-S-E-N, and Finn, F-I-N-N -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and it's dated April 26th, 1996 25 and it's a report with respect to the items that you
741 submitted to him. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And P-716 was identified to be a core 4 portion of a .40 calibre jacketed projectile, it is of no 5 specific value. And these are all indicated as having 6 been found by police, but one (1) vial with one (1) fired 7 projectile in it was identified as having come from item 8 F-503 and that was the Mr. Klym's rifle, I believe? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And the next item 707 was a .40 11 calibre jacketed projectile; it is of no value. And 12 F706, one (1) vial with one (1) projectile fragment in 13 it, consistent with being the base portion of a fired .38 14 calibre projectile. It is of no specific value. 15 And what did you take from the reference, 16 "It's of no specific value?" 17 A: That the particular items were not 18 irrelevant but that they were not suitable for the 19 purpose of individualizing the items as to what firearm 20 they originated from. 21 Q: So that they couldn't be used to -- 22 A: They couldn't be used in an 23 evidentiary fashion to pinpoint the firearm utilized to 24 fire that particular projectile. 25 Q: Okay. And I would ask that that be
751 the next exhibit? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1747, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1747: Document Number 1002012. Fax 5 to Stan Thompson of report of 6 the Centre of Forensic 7 Sciences, April 26, 1996. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: At Tab 17 there's Inquiry Document 11 2005457. And this appears to have been submitted by you 12 on July 10th or -- there are two (2) dates; July 10th, 13 1996, and July 15th, 1996? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And these refer to exhibits being 16 collected on the side of the roadway of the scene on 17 September 6th, 1995. However, they were not turned over 18 to SIU until October 24th, 1995; is that correct? 19 A: That's right, sir. 20 Q: And then were submitted by you for 21 testing? 22 A: Yes. They were to be compared with 23 firearms that are involved in this particular incident. 24 Q: And when -- can you tell us today 25 from whom you received these six (6) items?
761 A: Yes, your indulgence, please? 2 Q: Sure. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: "Item 703 was a .223 cartridge case 7 which was found at scene, [it says 8 here], by Natives. This was -- item 9 was collected by Mr. Don Miller. Item 10 704, a fired .40 caliber cartridge 11 case, also found at scene by Natives, 12 as described by Mr. Miller and received 13 by Mr. Miller." 14 Q: And you're referring to Exhibit P- 15 1737 for that, the exhibit control, Mr. Thompson? 16 A: I'm sorry? 17 Q: The -- 18 A: Yes, I'm -- yes, I'm referring to, 19 yes, the exhibit report created by me. 20 Q: And that's page 15? 21 A: That is on page 14 of the exhibit 22 report from the SIU. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you. 24 A: Going further, item 705, 706, 707 25 were similarly found at the scene by First Nations people
771 and turned over to Mr. Miller. 2 And item 713, a .9 millimetre cartridge 3 case had been found by Isaac Doxtator on the north side 4 of the curve at the billboard and turned over to Mr. 5 Miller. 6 Q: Then if I could ask you to turn to 7 Tab 18, and there is a copy of -- it's Inquiry document 8 1002008. And there's a letter -- faxed letter to you from 9 Mr. Nielsen and attached to it is a one (1) page report 10 dated July 15th, 1996, reporting on the items that were 11 submitted under -- I guess I didn't make a note -- the 12 inquiry document Commissioner, 2005457 should be in the 13 next Exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1748 Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1748: Document Number 2005457. 17 Centre of Forensic Sciences 18 Case submission by Stan 19 Thompson, July 10, 1996. 20 21 MR. DERRY MILLER: And then the first two 22 (2) pages of 1002008, the faxed cover sheet and the 23 report dated July 15th, 1996 should be the next exhibit, 24 the first two (2) pages. 25 THE REGISTRAR: The faxed cover as page
781 one (1) and -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLER: One (1), and then the 3 report of July 15th, 1996 as page two (2). 4 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 5 MR. DERRY MILLER: And that will be the 6 next Exhibit P -- 7 THE REGISTRAR: 1749, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1749: Document Number 1002008. Fax 10 to Stan Thompson with report 11 of the Centre of Forensic 12 Sciences re. Death 13 investigation with March 07, 14 1996 report of the Centre of 15 Forensic Sciences re. Death 16 investigation, July 15,1996. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLER: 19 Q: And in that report dated July 15, 20 1996, the item 713, 1706 and 1707 were identified as 21 having been fired from item 501 in the report of January 22 9th, 1996 which was a weapon assigned to Mr. Kenneth 23 Deane; is that correct? 24 A: I'm sorry, I lost you with the item 25 numbers.
791 Q: Well, it says found on scene F-713, 2 and then it says 17 but it must be 70 -- you see at the 3 bottom -- 4 A: Oh, yes, third item from the bottom? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes. That's -- I'm sorry F-713. 7 This was a cartridge case that was scientifically 8 examined and found to have been fired by the firearm that 9 was assigned to Ken Deane. 10 Q: And the next one (1), second from the 11 bottom? 12 A: Also -- also item F706, I think it 13 should read, is a cartridge case, also fired by Acting 14 Sergeant Deane's weapon. 15 Q: And the next one? 16 A: As well, the two (2) fired 9 mm 17 cartridge cases, F707, these were fired also by Deane's 18 firearm. 19 Q: And then at the top of the page, 704 20 and 705, .40 calibre cartridge case. And the result was: 21 "They could not -- could neither be 22 identified nor eliminated as having 23 been fired in item F48 of a report 24 dated January 9th, 1996. 25 And the same result was for F704 --
801 A: Yes, that's right. 2 Q: -- and 05? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And F48, as shown on Exhibit P-1743, 5 was a weapon issued to police, a Sig Sauer P229? If you 6 look back at Tab 10 of your book. 7 A: Thank you. 8 Q: Do you see the first entry? 9 "Item F48." 10 A: F48. Yes, sir. I do. And that is - 11 - that is quite correct. I agree with -- with the 12 results. 13 Q: Okay. Then at Tab 19 there is a 14 Inquiry Document 2005458, and that's a submission to the 15 Centre for Forensic Sciences dated August 21, 1996 made 16 by you. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And these -- you submitted three (3) 19 exhibits which were 38 special cartridges; is that 20 correct? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And you also submitted a Smith and 23 Wesson revolver? 24 A: That's right. That would be the 25 firearm that was assigned to Staff Sergeant Lacroix.
811 Q: And if you look at Exhibit P-1735 at 2 Tab 1, page 11, can you tell us how you came to get these 3 three (3) cartridges? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes. On Tuesday, August 20th, 1996 8 at about 11:33 in the morning, I met with lead 9 investigator Mr. Allen and he turned over an envelope to 10 me which was sealed and contained the cartridge cases. I 11 itemized the cartridge cases as 718, 719 and 720. 12 And on the 21st of August I, as well, 13 submitted three (3) 38 special cartridge cases along with 14 a 38 special Smith and Wesson revolver assigned to Staff 15 Sergeant Lacroix. This was forensic item number 178. 16 Q: 187? 17 A: I'm sorry. 187? 18 Q: Hmm hmm. That's what it says here. 19 A: That's -- you're quite correct. I'm 20 misreading it. 21 Q: And then the next day, on August the 22 22nd, you travelled to Sarnia and met with SIU 23 Investigator Mr. Kennedy. And then on the same morning 24 you returned to East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road. 25 A: Yes.
821 Q: And what did you do when you were 2 there? 3 A: I met with First Nations members, 4 Layton Elijah, Judas -- Judas -- Judas George and Glenn 5 George, in addition to Wayne Allen being present at the 6 time. And the purpose for this visit was to examination 7 -- examine the -- the ground inside the Park which was 8 immediately east of the west fence and entrance gate. 9 This was the first time that SIU had been 10 permitted to examine the ground inside the Park area. 11 Q: And you also examined the Shrine Area 12 which was west of the entrance gate? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And had you examined that before? 15 A: No, I had not, sir. 16 Q: And what, if anything, did you find? 17 A: There were some items of metallic 18 debris that were found under the surface of the -- of the 19 ground. However, there was nothing relevant to this 20 particular investigation. 21 Q: Actually, I think that perhaps I've 22 done this but on August 22nd if you look at page 12 it 23 appears that you examined the shrine area? 24 A: Yes, that's right. 25 Q: And then at 11:20 that morning you
831 met with Marlin Simon? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And Mr. Simon provided -- turned over 4 to you a .9 millimetre FC, quote, "Luger" close quote, 5 fired cartridge case? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And Mr. Simon advised you that he had 8 found the cartridge case on East Parkway Drive at 9 approximately 1:00 a.m. on September 7th, 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And had kept it until this time? 12 A: That's right, sir. 13 Q: And you labelled it Item 721 and 14 submitted it to the Centre for Forensic Sciences? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And then it was on April -- August 17 27th that you returned to the area, met with again Layton 18 Elijah, Judas George, and this time Pierre George and you 19 examined the ground east of the northwest entrance gate 20 to the Park, is that correct? 21 A: That's correct, yes. 22 Q: And you did a metal detector 23 examination? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you found metallic items which
841 consisted of nails, bolts, and pop cans. No evidence 2 relating to firearms was located during this examination, 3 is that correct? 4 A: That's right, sir. 5 Q: And then if I could ask you to turn 6 back to Tab 19? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Tab 19 is a copy of the submission. 11 It's Inquiry Document 2005458 although it has -- the 12 handwriting in bold was added by as I understand it the 13 Centre for Forensic Sciences? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as well, "Opened by CRO" was 16 added by them as well? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 19 the next exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1750, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1750: Document Number 2005458. 23 Centre of Forensic Sciences 24 Case submission by Stan 25 Thompson, August 21, 1996.
851 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And then at Tab 20 is a copy of 4 Inquiry Document 2005459 and it's a submission dated 5 August 28th, 1996, by you, is that correct? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And it's the submission of the .9 8 millimetre Luger cartridge that was referred to just a 9 few moments ago? 10 A: Yes, that's right, it was the 11 cartridge case which was turned over to me by Marlin 12 Simon on the 22nd of August. 13 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 14 the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1751, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1751: Document Number 2005459. 18 Centre of Forensic Sciences 19 Case submission by Stan 20 Thompson, August 28, 1996. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And then at Tab 22 is Inquiry 24 Document 1005419 and it's the results of the examination 25 by the Centre for Forensic Scientists -- Science dated
861 August 29th, 1996? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- you received a copy of 4 this? 5 A: Yes, sir, I did. 6 Q: And the results of this test indicate 7 that the three (3) cartridges were not fired in the 8 weapon assigned to Wade Lacroix? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And with respect to the .9 millimetre 11 calibre cartridge it was determined to have been fired in 12 item F501 which was the weapon assigned to Kenneth Deane? 13 A: That's correct, sir, yes. 14 Q: And again with respect to the three 15 (3) .38 special calibre firearms the report indicates 16 that they appear to have been fired in three (3) 17 different weapons? 18 A: Yes, that was the conclusion of the 19 firearms section at the Centre for Forensic Sciences, 20 yes. 21 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 22 exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1752, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1752: Document Number 1005419.
871 Report of the Centre of 2 Forensic Sciences re. Police 3 shooting received by the SIU, 4 September 04, 1996, August 5 29, 1996 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And at Tab 23 the -- actually we 9 should -- is the actual fax cover sheet from Mr. Nielsen 10 with the report that we've just referred to and as well, 11 the two (2) pages of the report that we've just referred 12 to. 13 And it's Inquiry document 1002011 and I 14 would ask the first three (3) pages, the fax cover sheet 15 and the report sent to Mr. Thompson, which is dated 16 August 29th, the pages are out of order, we'll simply put 17 them in the right order. 18 But, it's the first three (3) pages be the 19 next Exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1753 Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1753: Document Number 1002011. Fax 23 message to Stan Thompson with 24 August 29, 1996 and March 07, 25 1996 reports of the Centre of
881 Forensic Sciences, August 29, 2 1996. 3 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Registrar if 5 you could just put the pages in the right order, the 6 second page should be the third and the third the second. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Then at Tab 24, is a copy of a report 11 of the Centre for Forensic Sciences dated October 31, 12 1996. And it simply is reporting on a blood stain on the 13 shirt of Nicholas Cottrelle? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- the finding was that it 16 was consistent with the blood on the shirt and the 17 bandage are consistent with originating from Nicholas 18 Cottrelle? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And that's Inquiry document 1005588. 21 And I would ask that be the next Exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1754 Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1754: Document Number 1005588. 25 Report of the Centre of
891 Forensic Sciences re. Anthony 2 George, Nick Cottrelle. 3 Received by the SIU, November 4 18, 1996, October 31, 1996. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And at Tab 26 is a copy of Inquiry 8 document 1005559. And it's addressed to you from the 9 Centre for Forensic Sciences dated April 4 -- date 10 stamped from the SIU on April 4, 1997 and attached to it 11 is a report dated April 4, 1997 with respect to gunshot 12 residue tests on the bus, is that correct? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And you received a copy of this? 15 A: I did. 16 Q: And the results of the tests were 17 that the residue was not identified on the samples 18 listed, is that correct? 19 A: That's right, sir. 20 Q: And then there's a second page, a 21 description of the gunshot residue? 22 A: Yes. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 24 this be marked the next Exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1755 Your Honour.
901 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1755: Document Number 1005559. 2 Report of the Centre of 3 Forensic Sciences re. Death 4 investigation, Anthony 5 George, Nick Cottrelle with 6 fax message from E. Sild to 7 Stan Thompson, April 04, 8 1997. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And then I understand, as well, Mr. 12 Thompson that on April 1, 1997 you testified at Kenneth 13 Deane's trial? 14 A: Yes sir. 15 Q: And a copy of the transcript of your 16 testimony is inquiry document 1005290, appears at Tab 25? 17 A: Yes sir. 18 Q: And is that evidence that you gave 19 correct to the best of your knowledge? 20 A: Yes sir, it is. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 22 be the next Exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1756 Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1756: Document Number 1005290.
911 Transcript of R. v Ken Deane, 2 Proceedings at trial before 3 Judge H. Fraser, Examination 4 and Cross-Examination of Stan 5 Thompson, April 01, 1997. 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And just one (1) 8 moment please. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And is there anything you wish to add 14 Mr. Thompson before I'm done or any comments you wish to 15 make to the Commissioner cause I'm -- 16 A: Yes I have a brief statement if I may, 17 please. 18 "Without a doubt the death of Dudley 19 George was a tragedy which has affected 20 the community at large, the First 21 Nations people and the Ontario 22 Provincial Police. The lives of many 23 people have been changed forever. 24 Although I have no direct 25 recommendations, I firmly believe that
921 this Inquiry in seeking out the truth 2 will help to bring a resolution and 3 healing to all involved persons." 4 Thank you. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 6 Mr. Thompson. That concludes the questions I had, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Thank you very much, Mr. Miller. Anybody have any 10 questions for Mr. Thompson? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I've given you a 12 sheet, I guess, the first person will be Mr. Roland. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 14 how long might you -- 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: I expect to be an hour 16 or less. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An hour or 18 less. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'll put in for an hour. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. And then...? 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Twenty (20) to 22 thirty (30)minutes. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then Ms. Esmonde, 24 twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then Mr.
931 Scullion I presume. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I believe the same, 3 twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. Roy? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Scullion 6 twenty (20) to 30 minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy? 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Twenty to thirty (30) 9 minutes depending on what other counsel cover. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Roy twenty 11 (20) to thirty (30) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Twohig, 13 do you want to wait and see how it goes? 14 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Yes, please. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Unless you had 16 anything you wanted to bring out in direct exam -- in 17 chief? 18 MS. KIM TWOHIG: I just had one (1) 19 question of my own and then depending what other counsel 20 have to ask I may have additional questions. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So perhaps Ms. Twohig 22 could pose her question of her own first and then before 23 we start the cross-examination. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps 25 we'll do that now then. That's fine.
941 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KIM TWOHIG: 4 Q: Mr. Thompson, I just have a question 5 regarding Exhibit P-1735 which is at Tab 1 of your 6 binder. I'm wondering if you could turn to page 8. This 7 is your anticipated evidence. 8 I think about halfway down the page 9 there's reference to a memorandum of understanding which 10 was presented to you by Inspector Goodall of the OPP and 11 I believe from your statement that it was a memorandum 12 between the OPP and the occupiers; do you see that 13 reference? 14 A: On page 8? 15 Q: I believe it's page 8, yes. Page 8 16 at the bottom. 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Okay. There are a number of 19 highlights of the agreement listed with bullet points 20 beside them. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the first bullet point says: 23 "The burial ground sites were not to be 24 disturbed during the examination." 25 Do you see that?
951 A: Yes. 2 Q: I'm wondering, were you told anything 3 about the location of burial ground sites within the 4 Park? 5 A: No, I was not. 6 Q: Were you directed to any location 7 where there were or might be burial sites? 8 A: No, I was not. 9 Q: Do you know what that reference is 10 about? 11 A: I can only speculate and merely 12 speculate that the reference is to the memorial shrine 13 which was set up outside the Park in -- in memory of 14 Dudley George. 15 Q: Thank you. I understand that at some 16 point you met with First Nation Elders from the Kettle 17 Point First Nation -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- for a briefing; do you recall 20 that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did they tell you anything about 23 a burial ground within the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions.
961 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. Then I think we'll take the lunch break now 3 and start with Mr. Roland right after lunch. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 1:30. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 12:30 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 1:32 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed, please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 13 Roland...? 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Thompson. My 17 name is Ian Roland, I act for the Ontario Provincial 18 Police Association. I have a few questions for you. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Use the other one or 20 you can't be heard. 21 MR. IAN SMITH: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: Good afternoon. Let me ask you to
971 turn first to Tab 1, at about halfway down page 4, in 2 which you refer to, in your narrative, taking finger nail 3 scrapings from both hands of Dudley George. 4 Help me, if you could, I don't see in the 5 -- in the forensic submissions or results, any -- any 6 analytical results from those finger nail scrapings. Do 7 you recall any? 8 A: No. 9 Q: What was the purpose of you taking 10 those? 11 A: It was to cover all of the -- of the 12 basis as far as collection of all evidence that may or 13 may not be required at some later date. 14 Q: I see. And what were you 15 particularly looking for, as a forensic analyst, as a 16 result of fingernail scrapings? 17 A: I wasn't particularly looking at 18 anything. I was collecting the evidence in the event 19 that it could be perhaps useful at some other later time. 20 Q: All right. And what sort of things 21 are revealed by fingernail scrapings? 22 A: Many other things as far as trace 23 evidence is concerned, in -- contact with other people, 24 contact with other things. 25 Q: I see. And we don't see anywhere in
981 the forensic material that there was apparently any 2 reference or analysis to those submissions by you at all. 3 Do I -- am I missing something? I just -- it seems to -- 4 A: No, you're not missing anything, sir. 5 6 Q: There just isn't, it wasn't analysed, 7 it appears, at all by forensic science? 8 A: No, it wasn't. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now you indicate at page 8 of Tab 1, 14 that's P-1735, that before attending at the scene on 15 September the 18th, you met with Constable Deane and with 16 Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you indicate the purpose of that 19 was to be briefed by them, I take it, of their account of 20 what, from their perspective, occurred on September the 21 6th. 22 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 23 Q: And I gather from your notes that 24 they gave a -- you a -- from their perspective, a full 25 and complete briefing.
991 A: A very complete briefing, in my view; 2 as to the fullness of it, that's for other people to 3 determine. 4 Q: But I take it they answered all your 5 questions? 6 A: Pardon? 7 Q: They answered all your questions? 8 A: Yes. I don't think we had many 9 questions in view of the circumstances. However, there - 10 - there were questions that we did pose to the officers 11 and -- and they were answered. 12 Q: And -- and at that stage, Acting 13 Sergeant Deane was a subject officer. Was that -- 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And he didn't have any obligation to 16 meet with you or give you any kind of briefing or any 17 information? 18 A: That's right, none whatsoever. 19 Q: And yet he showed, from your 20 perspective, I take it, full cooperation with you? 21 A: Yes, full cooperation. 22 Q: Now, when you finally went to the 23 scene on September the 18th, I gather, from what you've 24 told us and from your notes, that there being eleven (11) 25 days past, it -- you weren't expecting to find the scene
1001 in the same condition it had been on September the 6th? 2 A: You're quite correct, sir, yes. 3 Q: And indeed you -- you knew, in that 4 intervening eleven (11) day period, that the Native 5 occupiers had control of the scene? 6 A: I didn't know who had control of the 7 scene, sir. 8 Q: I see. Well, you -- you knew up 9 until then there had been a good deal of negotiations to 10 permit you and the OPP forensic investigators to gain 11 access to the scene? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And that the investigation -- 14 or the, sorry, the negotiations concerned both the -- 15 your ability to gain access to the scene and the 16 conditions under which you were to gain access to the 17 scene? 18 A: Most certainly, yes. 19 Q: Yes. And you've told us that in such 20 circumstances, where you don't have access to a scene for 21 some time, the concern is that the artifacts that would 22 otherwise be available at a scene for you to -- to find 23 and to identify and to take control of for identification 24 purposes, may be -- may be removed? 25 A: Yes.
1011 Q: They may be changed? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: They may be themselves moved or taken 4 to some other location at the scene? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Disturbed in some fashion? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes. And all of those were matters 9 of, I guess, concern for you as an investigator because 10 the usefulness of what you found was going to be largely 11 determined by what had been there and in what location on 12 September the 6th? 13 A: Most certainly, yes, sir. Correct. 14 Q: And -- and I -- I take it you heard 15 an account of the fact that there had been a great number 16 of objects thrown from the Park by the occupiers, at the 17 police officers, on September the 6th as they were in or 18 about the sandy parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Rocks, bricks, pipes, sticks burning 21 and otherwise; you heard all about that? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: And I take it when you attended at 24 the sandy parking lot you found little evidence of that? 25 A: Very little evidence at all, sir.
1021 Q: Yes. And indeed Mr. Millar has 2 referred to this, that there was at least some evidence 3 that the parking lot had been scraped? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that evidence, principally, among 6 other pieces of evidence, but principally it was that 7 there was a sand -- a pile of sand near the knoll that 8 had -- that was there, the one with the telephone pole on 9 it -- or the hydro pole, I should say, that you learned 10 hadn't been there on September the 6th? 11 A: That's right, sir. 12 Q: Right. And I take it you assumed 13 that that had been -- that was the result of the scraping 14 of the sandy parking lot that had occurred between 15 September the 6th and September the 18th? 16 A: I didn't assume anything, sir, I -- I 17 found a -- a large mound of sand -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- and I didn't know where it came 20 from. 21 Q: But it -- you -- you had determined 22 it hadn't been there on September the 6th at the time of 23 the events? 24 A: I'm not sure whether I did or didn't 25 determine that it --
1031 Q: I see. 2 A: -- hadn't been there. 3 Q: Well, let me ask you this, because 4 we've heard lots of evidence it wasn't there, but let me 5 ask you this: Did you as -- in investigating, 6 forensically, the scene, did you seek to analyse the 7 contents of that pile of sand; that is, did you take it 8 apart? Did you sift through it? Did you see if you 9 could find any artifacts within that pile of sand? 10 A: I searched it with a metal detector-- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- and examined it visually and also 13 sifted through the -- through the sand to look for bullet 14 and firearms evidence. 15 Q: You sifted through that whole -- that 16 pile of sand? 17 A: Well, I should -- I should say I 18 didn't sift through it. 19 Q: It's a big pile of sand? 20 A: Exactly, of course it is. I -- I did 21 -- I did surface scrapings of the sand in order to 22 determine what -- what was there when I received metal 23 detector readings. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: And to no avail, I -- I might add.
1041 Q: And so were you satisfied then, 2 having used a metal detector, that there was no metal 3 objects at all within that pile of sand? 4 A: I was -- I was satisfied that with 5 the results of the metal detector examination there were 6 -- there were no bullets or firearms evidence in that -- 7 in that particular area, yes. 8 Q: And -- and are you satisfied that the 9 results of the metal detector examination was able to 10 determine that, whether you're at the top of that large 11 pile of sand or at the bottom of it, there were no metal 12 artifacts? 13 A: No, I can't -- I can't verify that 14 there -- there were no metal artifacts in the bottom of 15 that sand pile. 16 Q: And if that sand pile had been a 17 result of scraping of the parking lot area, the sandy 18 parking lot, the metal artifacts could as easily have 19 been at the bottom as at the top of the pile, couldn't 20 they? 21 A: They could have, yes. 22 Q: Yes. And I take it from that time to 23 the present, as far as you're aware, no one has -- has 24 sifted through that pile of sand to determine if there 25 were metal artifacts in the -- in the pile of sand?
1051 A: I have no knowledge of that, sir. 2 Q: Now, you have indicated that the OPP 3 seized a number of artifacts and other objects for the 4 purposes of forensic examination when the forensic 5 identification officers of the OPP attended on September 6 18th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And let me, if I could, give you a 9 copy... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I'm giving you a copy of a document 14 from the database 2000033. It's -- it appears to be a 15 master exhibit continuity examination list of the OPP. 16 And it is dated, itself, September 24, '95 and it has a 17 case file number of 012095130554; you see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And there appears to be a total of a 20 hundred and eighty-seven (187) exhibit items. There's 21 actually numbered one (1) to eighty-eight (88) [sic], but 22 the first one's blank, leaving a hundred and eighty-seven 23 (187). And is -- are these the exhibits as they appear 24 to be the ones that were taken by the OPP on the 25 attendance -- on the, I guess, September 18th and
1061 September 20th? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually -- 3 THE WITNESS: They appear to be the ones, 4 yes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Although some of them 6 would not be from the 18th and the 19th. Some of them 7 start earlier. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. I -- yes. Fair 9 enough. Some of them -- some of them start earlier. I 10 think they're all dated but they seem to be both earlier 11 ones and ones taken through this period of time. Most of 12 them are dated the 18th and 19th. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then there's 14 another Inquiry Document 10000001 that's a later document 15 that's a live document similar to the one that My Friend 16 has just provided that goes up to page -- to February 17 22nd, 1996, 193 items. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: In any event, you refer to a hundred 21 and eighty-seven (187) items. And I take it these are 22 the items that you're referring to as collected? 23 A: By the OPP? 24 Q: By the OPP? 25 A: Yes.
1071 Q: Yes. And I note that in -- of all of 2 the items collected in your -- your -- you've referred to 3 this in your statement at Tab 1, that there were only two 4 (2) artifacts related to bullet casings. 5 A: In my collections? 6 Q: No, in this collection. 7 A: In this collection? 8 Q: Yes, of the OPP at the time. 9 A: I haven't read the whole document, 10 sir, so I -- I don't -- I don't know whether there were 11 two (2) cartridge cases collected here or not. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Well, I've gone through it. I think 16 somewhere in your -- in your material you've indicated 17 to, but we -- we can see from this, going through it, 18 that there are only two (2) shown. 19 One (1) you'll see is at page 32, it's 20 Item 125. And the other is at page 33, it's Item 129. 21 A: Page 32 of the document that you just 22 gave me? 23 Q: Yes. You'll see Exhibit Number 125. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1081 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if you turn the page, Exhibit 4 Number 129. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Those appear to be the only two (2) 7 artifacts found relating to bullet casings. 8 A: I take your word for that, sir. 9 Q: All right. Mark this document as the 10 next exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: The document number is 12 what? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's 2000033. 14 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Excuse me, Mr. 15 Commissioner, just before it's marked, I'm not sure 16 whether Mr. Thompson has ever seen this before or if he 17 knows anything about it. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: He doesn't. 19 MS. KIM TWOHIG: And if he doesn't, I 20 suggest that it not be marked as an exhibit because I'm 21 not sure he's able to testify about it. Maybe My Friend 22 could ask him if he knows anything about it. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I -- I think -- I 24 think the witness would, because a number of the exhibit 25 numbers then show up in the reports that are identifying
1091 artifacts and objects through the forensic science 2 reports. 3 They appear to have the very number -- 4 exhibit numbers that are shown in this document. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 6 THE WITNESS: That is true. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 8 ask him if he's ever seen the document before? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Have you seen the 10 document before? 11 THE WITNESS: I -- I can't honestly 12 remember seeing this document in it's -- in it's form. 13 You're right, the forensic item numbers, some of them I 14 am familiar with because they were submitted to the 15 Centre of Forensic Sciences. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: However, the continuity and specific 20 dates and -- and this chronology, I am not familiar with 21 in the documentation. This is a -- an OPP document, of 22 course, and I -- I don't -- I simply don't remember 23 seeing it. 24 Q: Well let me just see if I can help 25 you. If you turn to page 13, Exhibit Number 48.
1101 A: Page 13? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yes, I have page 13. 4 Q: You -- you'll see there's -- Exhibit 5 48 is a Sig Sauer pistol from Constable Sharp. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you -- you recall that when you 8 first obtained that pistol from the OPP you assigned it 9 number 507, F507. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And we've heard and we see from your 12 evidence that you turned that back to the OPP sometime -- 13 some few days later? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: This -- this document or this pistol 16 then appears to be assigned a new number 48; do you see 17 that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it appears -- you'll see it 20 appears in P-1737. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Sorry, it appears in Tab 10. 25
1111 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Sorry, 1743. The first item, do you 4 see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So that the -- this -- I mean this is 7 an example of what seems to have occurred that the -- one 8 (1) number's been given to this pistol in the first 9 instance, in this case 507. It was turned back, then re- 10 seized, seized again, and used again for examination and 11 testing and assigned another number, a different number, 12 F48. 13 A: Yes, but that F48 is not a number 14 that I would have used. 15 Q: Well, this -- this has been used in 16 this report that you've referred to -- referred us to and 17 it's gone to you. That -- that is the -- if we're to -- 18 to identify what weapon that is where do we go? Apart 19 from what I've just shown you, where do we go to find out 20 what F48 is? 21 A: F48 through, cross-referencing... 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 23 might. Ms. Twohig is -- is correct in the sense of it 24 doesn't look like Mr. Thompson has ever seen this 25 document before although he recognizes some of the
1121 contents. But I've no objection to having it marked as 2 an exhibit. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's mark 4 it. 5 THE WITNESS: Or I -- perhaps I can 6 assist the -- the Inquiry here. Item F48 referred to on 7 Inquiry Document, 10005654 is -- appears to be Item 507 8 which was collected by me -- 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right. 10 THE WITNESS: -- at the Forest 11 Detachment. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Most of the 13 items that are in this list he doesn't know anything 14 about so I don't see any harm. I'll wait to hear from 15 Mr. Scullion. 16 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may. It seems 18 a fairly tenuous link between -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- this Witness and 21 this list of exhibits. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And I'm -- I know 24 we've marked a number of exhibits -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have.
1131 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- so far for 2 identification and other purposes. My concern is about 3 the quality of the evidence when he's referred to things 4 that aren't in there or what seems to be missing or what 5 this document means as a whole which of course he can't 6 speak to at all. So I -- I just ask that we -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- be very careful 9 about what we -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- use this document 12 for even though we are marking it as an exhibit. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 really what it comes down to, Mr. Scullion. It doesn't 15 have a great deal of weight, especially the things that 16 he doesn't know anything about, but marking as an exhibit 17 I don't see a problem with doing that. We've had pretty 18 liberal rules for marking documents as exhibits. 19 So you're marking it as exhibit number...? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1757, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1757: Document Number 2000033. OPP 23 Technical Identification 24 Services Unit Master Exhibit 25 Continuity/Examination list,
1141 September 24, 1995. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: Sorry, just to finish this off, Mr. 5 Thompson, at P-1743, which is Tab 10, there is referred 6 to F48? 7 A: Yes? 8 Q: Where does that number come from? 9 A: That is very likely an OPP number. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And this item, I seem to recall, was 12 submitted to the Centre for Forensic Sciences for testing 13 by the OPP. 14 Q: And how do we know what -- what -- 15 whose pistol it was? 16 A: Because I have reference to it back 17 on September the -- the 8th as collecting it from 18 Constable Mark Dew. 19 Q: But then you assigned 507 to it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. How do you -- how do you then 22 make the connection to forty-eight (48)? 23 A: By with the serial number. 24 Q: I see. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't
1151 need this document to give his evidence. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: It's through the serial number? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's why I 8 wouldn't put a great deal of weight or reliance on the 9 document. But, in any event, we've made it an exhibit, 10 1757. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 15 Q: Now, when you attended at the scene 16 on September the 18th and 19th, and I think again on the 17 20th? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yes. You told us that you did a 20 number of things including an examination with your metal 21 detector of the sandy knoll -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- at the south end of the parking 24 lot? 25 A: Are you referring to the --
1161 Q: South. 2 A: -- to that as the -- 3 Q: Is this -- 4 A: -- the grass or the sand bank? 5 Q: Yes, the sandy bank? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It's -- I call it the sandy knoll as 10 opposed to the grassy knoll? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And on that knoll you indicate that 13 you measured the location of the hydro pole? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that you did an examination of 16 the area, both visual and with a metal detector? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes. And in the course of that did 19 you come across a -- some foxholes, some dug out 20 indentations? 21 A: There were some indentations in the - 22 - in the berm, yes. 23 Q: And were those indentations, at least 24 for your eye, apparently made by some person? 25 A: I don't know, sir.
1171 Q: You don't know. And did you -- did 2 you check the -- the -- within those indentations to 3 determine what, if anything, was to be found therein? 4 A: I -- I scanned them with the metal 5 detector, of course, and visually examined them. I 6 didn't dig them up or anything to that effect. 7 Q: I see. And did you find a sharpened 8 stick in one of them? 9 A: No. I don't remember finding that. 10 Q: Okay. When you were doing your 11 examination were you doing it with the OPP identification 12 officers? 13 A: The -- the OPP was examining the 14 scene cooperatively. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: However, they weren't -- we weren't 17 working side by side entirely through the -- through the 18 examination. 19 Q: And so -- and I take it you saw that 20 the OPP Identification Officers were acquiring exhibits-- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- as they went through their -- 23 their examination of the site? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I take it sealing and bagging
1181 those exhibits? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you observed them doing that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Yes. And I gather the cooperation, 6 as you understood it and as it actually manifested 7 itself, was that those exhibits were then turned over, 8 were they, to the SIU and to the Forensic Science? 9 A: To either SIU or the Centre for 10 Forensic Sciences? 11 Q: One or the other? 12 A: One or the other. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now when you attended on the 18th, 18 19th and 20th, did you request of the Native occupiers 19 who were there with you, to show you the location where 20 they believed Dudley George had been shot? 21 A: I don't remember doing that, sir, no. 22 Q: I see. We see in Tab 2 of your 23 notes, this is P-1734, that at page 22 about a third of 24 the way down, you make a note to do that in preparation 25 for your visit.
1191 A: What page again, sir? 2 Q: Page 22 of 37. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Could you give me the Inquiry 7 Document Number on that please? 8 Q: It's Tab 2. It's P-1734. The 9 database number is 0050360. You should find it at Tab 2. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Tab 11 2 is something else, Mr. Roland. Tab 2 is 10004438. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it is 1000438. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: I -- sorry. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So you're looking at 15 the -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry. I'm looking 17 at the top, 1004438. I'm sorry, I was looking at the top 18 as opposed to the bottom. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: And I'm asking you to go to page 22. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He's talking about --
1201 he's looking at the -- the typed -- the first thirty-six 2 (36) pages, Mr. Thompson. The typed report. It's page-- 3 THE WITNESS: Is this in the follow-up 4 report? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. It's entitled, 6 Follow-up Report. 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Tab -- Tab 2, sir. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, thanks. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's among 17 those points at the top of the page, right? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 22 of -- it's 19 page -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 21 it. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, good. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: And you'll see the second to last
1211 point that you make -- it appears to be a note to 2 yourself. 3 "Request that Native show location 4 where they believe Anthony George was 5 shot." 6 See me? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And my question was: Did you 9 do that? 10 A: I have no doubt that it was done to - 11 - and other investigators may have been aware of that, 12 but I don't specifically remember that myself. 13 Q: Okay. We also know that there 14 appeared on the roadway, the remnants of what appeared to 15 be a fire where there was ash from -- it appeared to be 16 wood ash on the -- on the roadway near the intersection. 17 Do you remember that? 18 A: On the actual roadway? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I don't recall that, sir. 21 Q: You don't recall that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. And so you don't recall I 24 take it having any discussion with any Native occupiers 25 or others about the significance of that -- of the ash on
1221 the roadway? 2 A: I may have seen it at the time. I 3 don't remember seeing it and I don't remember a 4 discussion about it. 5 Q: All right. On the 20th of September 6 your -- in the course of doing some measurements with 7 respect to the poplar tree -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and in the course of doing that, 10 your record that you heard a large bang. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you recall that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Which you identified as being a bang 15 consistent with a shotgun blast. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you -- as I understand it you 18 identify the source of that, the location from which that 19 blast is coming, as the Park; somewhere east of you in 20 the Park? 21 A: Somewhere east of me -- east of the 22 west fence of the Park, yes. 23 Q: Yes. You were at that stage not in 24 the Park, you were outside the Park? 25 A: I was not in -- not inside the Park,
1231 no, sir. 2 Q: And did you investigate that blast to 3 determine what its origin was? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: Did anybody to your knowledge? 6 A: Not to my knowledge. 7 Q: And could you tell the distance, what 8 your estimate of the distance that that -- you said it 9 was a loud bang so I take it it wasn't that far distant? 10 A: I can't estimate the distance, sir. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, with respect to the -- the 15 gunshot residue, what was the kind of analysis done by 16 the Centre for Forensic Science at the time for gunshot 17 residue? 18 A: The science at the time would have 19 been to submit the samples to a scanning electron 20 microscope. 21 Q: All right. And I gather that -- that 22 the scanning electron microscope identifies particles of 23 antimony, barium, and lead? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. And it can do so down to a very
1241 small number of particles? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: Yes. And I think you've told us that 4 you need to identify all three (3) to confirm the 5 presence of gunshot residue? 6 A: I believe so. I'm -- I'm not up-to- 7 date on the -- on the forensic issues at this -- at this 8 particular time, but I believe you're correct. 9 Q: I don't see in the material any of 10 the analysis done by the Centre for Forensic Science, 11 simply the report of the result. But we don't have any 12 of the analysis itself do we? 13 A: No. 14 Q: That is we don't have analysis to 15 show that they found -- the Centre found one (1) or two 16 (2) but not three (3) of the elements? 17 A: You're quite correct. 18 Q: All right. But there is some 19 indication in the database that they -- that with respect 20 to the bus they did find two of the three (3) elements. 21 Are you aware of that? Did you -- were you ever told 22 that? 23 A: I don't remember specifically. I may 24 have been told that. 25 Q: Yes.
1251 MR. JULIAN ROY: Mr. Commissioner -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- could we have a 4 reference for -- for the allusion -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 6 Mr. Roy, I can't hear you. 7 MR. JULIAN ROY: Could we have a 8 reference? I'm -- I'm asking through you for -- for My 9 Friend a reference for the allusion that he just made. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 11 that's fair. 12 MR. JULIAN ROY: The other thing -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would like it as 14 well. 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: The other reason why I'm 16 rising -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 18 that's fair. 19 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- is I have a concern 20 about -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- this Witness has not 23 been qualified as an expert. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he 25 hasn't.
1261 MR. JULIAN ROY: In fact he specifically 2 disclaimed a number of times having any -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- expertise in 5 ballistics and firearms. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His lack of 7 expertise. Let's see the reference. 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: And to elicit from this 9 Witness any kind of form of opinion in any way, shape, or 10 form, regarding those types of issues in my respectful 11 submission is not proper through this Witness. He's a -- 12 he has expertise in terms of collecting the items for 13 analysis, not the analysis itself. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. What's 15 the reference, Mr. Roland? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: He's not my witness -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know, 18 you -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- Mr. Commissioner, and 20 this is the best we have. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: There's no other expert 23 to being called so this is as close as we get. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What 25 reference are you referring to?
1271 MR. IAN ROLAND: The reference is -- is 2 Document Number 1005760. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 5760. 4 1005760? 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 7 that in front of me. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, 1005060 appears 12 to be somebody's notes. Who knows whose notes they are. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 14 can't draw any inferences in any event or form any 15 opinions so -- 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sir, I didn't ask him 17 to, I'm simply asking him did he hear -- did -- did he 18 obtain any report about the Centre for Forensic Science 19 finding two (2) of the three (3) elements in the bus and 20 he's indicated he doesn't recall. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he 22 doesn't recall, but if you ask him I presume you have 23 some evidence to suggest that that may be the case? 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I -- I've -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you --
1281 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- given the -- I've 2 given the document number. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it 4 doesn't seem to match. All right. If you're moving on 5 then move on. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: Mr. Thompson, I take it from the 11 evidence that you've -- in -- you've given us that in 12 total there seems to have been recovered five (5) 13 cartridges consistent with shots fired from the firearm 14 of Kenneth Deane; is that right? 15 That's -- I totalled it as five (5). I 16 think Tab 19 indicated four (4) and Tab 11 indicated one 17 (1); is that -- is that as you understand it? 18 A: I haven't recorded all the numbers of 19 -- are you referring to cartridge cases? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I haven't totalled all the -- the 22 number up but that sounds to be correct. 23 Q: Let me ask you if you could turn to 24 Tab 18? And I see there are -- there are, at the -- the 25 bottom, three (3) entries:
1291 "Found at scene F713." 2 And then: 3 "F1706 and 1707" 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And they all are indicated as being 6 fired by the firearm that was in the possession of Ken 7 Deane? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: Yeah. And -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just for the purposes 11 of record, Mr. Thompson said in-chief that the thinks 12 those should be not one (1), seven (7) but just simply 13 706 and 707. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: I see that -- in -- if we turn back 18 to seventeen (17), you've got them as 1706 and 1707, and 19 that seems to be written over? 20 A: That's not my report, sir. 21 Q: I see. Okay. And so but, as far as 22 you know then, if we go back one (1) more it looked like 23 it's 707; that is back to Tab 16, it looks like it's 707 24 and 706 not 1707 and 1706, right? 25 A: I'm sorry, you lost me.
1301 Q: If you go back to Tab 16, this is 2 indicating, as Mr. Miller has, at Tab 16, that the number 3 seems to have been changed for 707 and 706 by adding a 4 digit one (1) before both of them. 5 If you look on 16. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That's -- and then it seems to -- 8 seems to have moved from that to 1706 and 1707 for the 9 next two (2) documents? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it's -- but we're talking about 12 the same items? 13 A: I believe they're the same items, 14 yes. 15 Q: Now, you indicated in your evidence 16 that when you were examining the scene for bullets, 17 looking at trees and the hydro pole, and as well I think 18 you said the large -- the large sign on the fence, you 19 were both visually examining and using a metal detector? 20 A: I was visually examining the hydro 21 pole and the large Poplar tree. However, when it comes 22 to the sign I didn't examine it with a metal detector. 23 Q: Did you examine the Poplar and the 24 pole with a metal detector? 25 A: Yes.
1311 Q: Yes. And you said that there was 2 nothing -- you were asked this question by Mr. Millar, 3 there was nothing seen coming from an easterly direction? 4 A: There -- there was nothing at all 5 from either direction. 6 Q: And I want to ask you that. There 7 was nothing from a westerly direction either? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Now, you described the bus and 10 your examination of the bus and the -- and the bullet 11 hole, and which it appears a bullet entered the bus? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there -- I gather there was no 14 exit hole that was apparent? 15 A: No, no exit hole leaving the bus. 16 Q: And yet I gather you didn't find a 17 bullet projectile in the bus? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And I take it you were aware at that 20 stage, some eleven (11) days after the event, that the 21 bus had been used in the intervening period between 22 September the 6th and September the 18th; that it had 23 been -- it had been seen being used and driven around? 24 A: No, I'm not -- 25 Q: You're not aware of that?
1321 A: -- aware of that. 2 Q: All right. You would have -- I take 3 if you'd -- if you'd been on the scene at the time that 4 the bus had been -- had been shot, that is a bullet had 5 been shot into the bus, you would have expected, absent a 6 -- an exit hole, to find a bullet projectile in the bus? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: I'm going to show you another 13 document, it's Inquiry Document 1002404. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Thank you. 18 Q: It's a multi-page document generated 19 by the Special Investigations Unit with its case number. 20 It's titled, "Exhibit Collection Report." 21 Do you recognize this document? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: Yes. And you will -- this, I take 24 it, is the original document that's prepared when the 25 particular item is assigned an exhibit number and is
1331 turned over to the SIU? This is the source document, is 2 it not? 3 A: I'm not sure whether this was created 4 at the -- at the source or whether it was created 5 sometime later. 6 Q: All right. In any event, it has the 7 level of detail on it that's -- that's greater than the 8 level of detail you've shown in your -- in your 9 documentation, and in particular the one that was 10 introduced today, the exhibit -- the master exhibit list, 11 right? 12 A: I'm not sure you would consider that 13 greater detail. When I -- when I originally prepared my 14 exhibit report -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- it was meticulously done and it 17 had all the continuity -- chain of continuity on the back 18 of each individual page. And in preparing for this 19 Inquiry, all I received from the Ministry was a photocopy 20 of -- of the master and it quite simply is incomplete 21 compared to the document which originally I left with the 22 SIU. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 24 referring to Exhibit P-1737? Is that what -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, the -- the
1341 Witness' exhib -- P-137 -- 1737 and -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And My Friend it's a - 4 - My Friend can do whatever he wants in argument. But 5 the only added detail on this document is the address and 6 phone number of the person who gave the document. 7 So My Friend should be a little fairer -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, I don't -- I think 9 I am. And if you turn -- I disagree with My Friend. If 10 you turn to P-1737, let's go, for example, to page 14. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 14 of 12 1737? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: Help me out with the tab 15 number, please? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, this is the document 17 that was introduced today. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It was at -- it's the 19 document he's referring to Mr. Thompson. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: The exhibit -- it's the 21 exhibit report. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Roland is -- the 23 exhibit report, that one (1), sir. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Page number? 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: 14.
1351 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND. 4 Q: And I see, for example, there's 5 Exhibit 702; do you see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And it -- it reads: 8 "Documents found by Natives at 9 ambulance post, et cetera, seal in [and 10 the number]." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: That's the information we have with 13 respect to 702 at its collection stage, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And if you turn to the document I've 16 just shown you it has on it some additional informations: 17 "Found September 8 '95 at 4:30 p.m." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: It has Layton Elijah's name. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And it says: 22 "Person received Miller/Allen." 23 Right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then of course it has a number at
1361 the bottom, the serial number. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so there is some additional 4 information on this document I've shown you, right, that 5 isn't in your exhibit list? 6 A: That's true. 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: And I think -- I'm not going to 9 bother taking you through the rest of this document, but 10 there's additional information on the sheets that appear 11 to be -- you're not sure where they are but they appear 12 to be at least the original document. They have a -- 13 they assign a seal number to it and so on. 14 It appears to be the document that was the 15 original collection report? 16 A: I don't believe so, sir. I think 17 this was a document that was generated by Mr. Miller 18 based on my original exhibit report. And this may have 19 been prepared for the purposes of the -- of the Deane 20 trial. 21 Q: That is that he put additional 22 information on these documents not in your exhibit report 23 for the purposes of the Deane trial? 24 A: I don't know where he got that 25 information, sir, perhaps from his personal notes.
1371 Q: All right. If would give an exhibit 2 number to this document, please? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which one? 4 Which document are you referring to, Mr. Roland? 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's the -- it's the 6 document -- the collection of pages, Special 7 Investigations Unit Exhibit Collection Report. It's 8 Inquiry Document Number 1002404. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 10 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm back to my 12 original point which is we -- making it an exhibit number 13 isn't all that valuable other than for a reference for 14 his testimony today. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, and it 16 helps us when we go to write the report to know where 17 things are. Yes, go ahead. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Agreed and cross- 19 referencing the documents. But submissions or 20 suggestions such as this is more complete than your 21 earlier one is very incomplete in terms of we have no 22 idea what Mr. Roland is referring to other than the 23 snippet that he's just referred to -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- with a couple of
1381 points. We can't generally say it's more accurate or it 2 contains more detail, generally. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Witness 4 hasn't agree with him. 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He hasn't agreed 6 with him but I just wanted to raise that issue -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He pointed 8 out that -- 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- again. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 He's pointed out -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, there's 13 also -- there's some addresses and telephone numbers that 14 are personal information on each of these pages that 15 should be -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should 17 probably be redacted. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, has to be 19 redacted. So on the exhibit copy it needs to be, and if 20 there are any other personal information we would like 21 them redacted if My Friend... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No one's suggesting
1391 that the name would be redacted, Mr. Roland. Just like 2 with the police officers -- 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: I see. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we would like the 5 personal information redacted. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Do you have any 8 trouble with that? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I do not. I do not, Mr. 10 Millar. I have no trouble with it, I just wasn't sure 11 personal information includes a name and I was simply 12 asking Mr. Millar whether or not he intended the name to 13 be redacted. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And if Mr. Roland 15 would listen while I'm speaking he would have said -- or 16 listened and heard me say the address and telephone 17 number. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 Carry on, Mr. Roland. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1758, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1753? 22 THE REGISTRAR: 8. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 24 1758. 25
1401 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1758: Document Number 1002404. 2 Special Investigation Unit 3 Exhibit Collection Report, 4 September 07, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Now, you went back to the scene, we 8 see some considerable time later, that is the following 9 year with respect to looking at the area of the memorial 10 to determine what else could be found there and to, I 11 take it, look at the location of what was represented to 12 you as three (3) .38 cartridges; the original site of 13 three (3) .38 cartridges? 14 A: Yes, yes. I can't remember the exact 15 date that the .38 cartridge cases were recovered, but 16 yes, that -- that was part of my examination of the 17 memorial site. 18 Q: Yes. And can you tell us how did you 19 come to go through that examination? 20 Who were you first approached by with 21 respect to those three (3) .38 cartridges? 22 A: I don't specifically remember who 23 approached me with respect to those cartridge cases. 24 Q: And -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, he can -- My
1411 Friend refers him to Exhibit P-1735, page 11, Inquiry 2 Document 1004473, at the bottom of the page under August 3 20th My Friend will find the answer. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1735, page 5 11. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: So I have it from that and I take it 11 from Mr. Millar's intervention, that it was lead 12 investigator Wayne Allen that informed you of this, was 13 it? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 Q: And did you learn where he learned of 16 it; learned of these cartridges? 17 A: I -- I believe, as my memory serves 18 me, the cartridge cases were turned over to him by First 19 Nations people. 20 Q: All right. And was it one (1) of or 21 of Mr. Layton Elijah, Judas George or Glenn George who 22 you met with on the 22nd of August, '96? 23 A: I -- I don't remember. 24 Q: And what was the purpose of attending 25 at the shrine location with those Natives, occupiers on
1421 that day? Why did you go? 2 A: My understanding was that this was in 3 -- in concert with the examination of the interior of the 4 ground inside the Park, as my memory serves me. I'm -- 5 there were -- there were several visits to the -- to the 6 Park and I don't wish to mislead the Inquiry but I -- I 7 believe that the examination of the shrine was undertaken 8 at the same time as the examination of the ground search 9 inside the Park with Mr. Kennedy. 10 Q: Yes. Yes, I think you've indicated 11 that you did a search of an area of about fifty (50) 12 metres by fifty (50) metres? 13 A: Yes, that's right. 14 Q: Yes. And what -- what was the centre 15 of that search? Where was the centre of your fifty (50) 16 metre by fifty (50) metre search located? Was it at the 17 shrine? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Approximately. 21 Q: And I take it that was both a metal 22 detector search and a visual search? 23 A: Yes, it was. 24 Q: And I gather from your -- from your 25 report, nothing significant was found as a result of that
1431 search? 2 A: No relevant materials were -- were 3 recovered. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you, Mr. Thompson. 8 Those are my questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Roland. You're right exactly on your time estimate. 11 Thank you very much. 12 Ms. Esmonde...? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good afternoon, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 afternoon. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 22 Q: Good afternoon. 23 A: Good afternoon. 24 Q: As I told you this morning, my name 25 is Jackie Esmonde, and I'm going to be asking you some
1441 questions on behalf of some of the Stoney Point people 2 under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 3 A: Thank you. 4 Q: Now your role with the SIU was as an 5 Identification Officer; is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you served in that role from 1992 8 until the year 2000? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And I -- I take it then that you 11 would be very familiar with the mandate of the SIU? 12 A: Yes, quite familiar. 13 Q: And you would know that the SIU is 14 mandated to become involved in a case where there has 15 been serious injury or death to a person who's been 16 involved with a police service in Ontario? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, I would like to get your 19 understanding of when that mandate becomes invoked. Now, 20 in your mind, once it's clear to a police service that a 21 person has been injured seriously or has died during an 22 altercation with that police service, in your mind would 23 you expect that police service to then act as though the 24 SIU mandate had been invoked? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't know how
1451 he can answer that question. 2 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I'm asking 3 what his expectation would be of the police service. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not the 6 person. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's not the 9 person to -- well, I don't know what he knows or doesn't. 10 If he doesn't know, he'll say he doesn't know. But he's 11 not the person -- 12 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: If he's not familiar 13 with it, then I'm sure he'll tell us that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: May I -- may I ask 16 him to answer that question? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 20 Q: Did you understand the question? It 21 was very convoluted but -- 22 A: Could you reword it, please? 23 Q: Okay. I'll try and simplify it 24 perhaps. 25 A: Thank you.
1461 Q: We've heard -- we've heard reference 2 to the term of the SIU formally invoking its mandate. 3 And do you have an understanding of what that would mean 4 for the SIU to formally invoke its mandate? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what would that mean? 7 A: That is a decision that's not made by 8 me, it's made by the director or supervisors who actually 9 receive the information from police services. 10 Q: But how -- how would it be formally 11 invoked then? A member of the SIU would say -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This isn't 13 helpful, Ms. Esmonde, not through this Witness. He isn't 14 the person to be asking these questions, it's obvious. 15 And the questions you're asking, I know why. It's 16 obvious why you're asking the questions -- 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I just 19 don't think this is a witness who can be of any 20 assistance in this regard. 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well he -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not for 23 him to decide or to say. I don't know how he would know. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, with respect, 25 Mr. Commissioner, he did work with the SIU for some eight
1471 (8) years and was involved in -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but 3 you -- 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- quite a large 5 number of investigations and would have experience with 6 that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you're 8 going to ask about a very, very specific area, and it's 9 not his area of interest, involvement or expertise. 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I understand 11 that he's been called here because of his involvement in 12 this case as an identification officer, but he may be 13 able to assist 14 us -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 16 should ask him that and see what he knows. 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- in terms of some 18 of the broader policies. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ask him 20 generally what he may know about it or if he's been 21 involved. I wouldn't ask him unless you had some basis 22 for asking him those questions and I don't see it at the 23 moment. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. He has told 25 us that he is familiar with how the mandate is invoked.
1481 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 2 about all he said. But we don't -- 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: And he -- he wasn't 4 able to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- know what 6 he means by it. We don't know what he means by that. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Right. He hasn't 8 yet had a chance to answer that question. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 10 I think he answered that he knows -- 11 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: He said that he knew 12 and then I was in the process of asking him what he knew 13 and then we began this conversation, so. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think a 15 lot of this has been changed as well, but in any event, 16 we'll take it question by question. 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 20 Q: So can you assist us then in terms of 21 -- based on your experience and what you know, and if you 22 don't know I'm sure you'll tell us, but how is the 23 mandate formally invoked? 24 A: Well, I regret to inform you that I 25 am not a part of that decision-making process.
1491 Q: I understand that you're not a part 2 of the decision-making process but you -- 3 A: And I -- I, in fact, don't know 4 anything in -- as far as specifics with this case is 5 concerned as to how the mandate was invoked and by whom 6 or all the particulars thereof. 7 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say that 8 in the early hours of an SIU investigation, most of the 9 information that you would have available to you, as an 10 identification officer, would come from the police? 11 A: Yes. Indirectly from -- from the 12 police and then to the lead investigator and then to me. 13 Q: And if there was an error in that 14 information that was provided to you from the police -- 15 let me -- let me back up a little bit. 16 Are you familiar at all, sir, with the 17 policy with respect to the issuance about a press release 18 by a police service that has become involved with the 19 SIU? 20 A: No. That's outside the -- the realm 21 of my expertise, I'm afraid to say. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 23 I thought, Ms. Esmonde. I think you're going to an area 24 that this Witness can't be much assistance on this. 25 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I agree, Mr.
1501 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 7 Q: You were -- you were involved in 8 several different investigations, all arising out of one 9 (1) altercation on September 6th, 1995; is that fair? 10 There was the death of Anthony O'Brien 11 George and the injuries to Cecil Bernard George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And were you also investigating the 14 injuries to Nicholas Cottrell as part -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- of that investigation? We've -- 17 and I've seen in the documents reference to a baton being 18 seized from a police officer for forensic identification 19 with respect to possible paint chips. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A: I remember the baton being collected. 22 I don't remember the particulars of that collection. 23 Q: Now, did you turn your mind to the 24 possibility of seizing batons from OPP officers who were 25 involved in the altercation in the sandy parking lot for
1511 the purpose of testing for evidence of Cecil Bernard 2 George's blood? 3 A: I don't remember -- I don't remember 4 considering that -- that matter. It may have been 5 considered by other investigators, including the lead 6 investigator in this matter, Mr. Allen. 7 Q: Okay. You did not turn your mind to 8 that possibility? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And as far as you know, that didn't 11 occur? 12 A: I don't know whether it occurred or 13 not. 14 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Thompson. 15 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Ms. Esmonde. 18 Mr. Scullion...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I see we're moving 23 right along. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25
1521 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 2 Q: Good afternoon. My name is Kevin 3 Scullion. I'm one of the counsel for the residents of 4 Aazhoodena, you may know them -- 5 A: Good afternoon, sir. 6 Q: Good afternoon. I only have one (1) 7 area to discuss with you and that's the -- after you were 8 allowed access to the sites, and I'll refer to them 9 generally as the car, the bus, and the area where the 10 incident occurred, once you had access to that, in terms 11 of your job of collecting the samples, inspecting the 12 site and doing whatever you needed to do to fully inspect 13 the areas, were you limited in any way by any of the 14 First Nations observers that were there? 15 A: We were specifically not limited in - 16 - in our examination of the scene. However, there were 17 time constraints associated with the examination process. 18 We were allowed one (1) particular day for 19 the scene and one (1) particular day for the vehicles. 20 And it -- there was a -- a sense of -- of urgency which 21 I've never been accustomed to in -- in scene examinations 22 before and I, perhaps, wasn't totally comfortable with 23 the fact that we had to do it within a certain period of 24 time. 25 Q: It's interesting. Now I have more
1531 questions in that area. 2 Where did this sense of urgency come from 3 that you've just testified about? 4 A: I don't know where the sense of 5 urgency came from. This was an agreed-upon accord 6 between the First Nations people and the OPP which 7 permitted the OPP and the SIU to examine the scene. 8 But there were -- there were limits that 9 were specific to that particular accord that was -- that 10 was entered into by the parties. 11 Q: I appreciate that. And the accord 12 you're talking about is what you testified in your 13 examination-in-chief. And if I can help you, it's Tab 1, 14 page 8, and the questions that Mr. Millar put to you with 15 regards to the burial sites. So Tab 1, page 8. 16 A: Thank you. 17 Q: The eight (8) I'm referring to is at 18 the bottom, as we sometimes have more than one page 19 number. Do you see that? 20 A: Yes, I do, sir. 21 Q: And you have bullets, that's the 22 accord, I presume, you're referring to? 23 A: Yes. Those are the essential 24 ingredients in the -- the accord. 25 Q: Okay. And your understanding is that
1541 that accord was reached by agreement between the First 2 Nations observers or people occupying the Park, and the 3 OPP in terms of the investigation that was going to be 4 undertaken? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And it's both the investigation by 7 the OPPA or OPP, as well as the SIU, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that's what you've referred to 10 earlier as a cooperative investigation that was 11 occurring? 12 A: Yes, that's right. 13 Q: All right. And when you refer to 14 "cooperative" you mean that whatever they gather they're 15 required to turn over to the SIU and whatever the SIU 16 gathers they're required to disclose to the OPP? 17 A: Yes. Information is gathered not in 18 -- in isolation, it's in a transparent fashion and 19 there's a sharing of all information and evidence. 20 Q: I appreciate that. Going into this 21 site investigation, you had an understanding, as relayed 22 to you from members of the OPP, as to what had occurred 23 that evening; the evening of September 6th with the 24 incident, correct? 25 A: Yes. Yes.
1551 Q: And your understanding was that there 2 was a shooting and that OPP officers returned fire, 3 correct? 4 A: Yes, that's true. 5 Q: Okay. And I -- I can refer you to a 6 couple of spots in your notes, but it seems to be that's 7 the type of briefing that you're receiving going into 8 your investigation of these areas? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: I take it that you conducted these 11 investigations consistent with your understanding of what 12 you thought had occurred that evening? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And you investigated every aspect 15 that could in any way relate to your understanding of 16 what occurred that evening? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In other words, you didn't leave any 19 stone unturned? 20 A: Not to my knowledge, sir. 21 Q: Okay. You did a complete 22 investigation from your view, and you weren't prevented 23 from completing your investigation, other than the sense 24 of urgency that you referred to? 25
1561 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I was -- I was not happy with the -- 4 the manner -- or not the manner but the -- the 5 limitations placed on the -- the examinations of the 6 vehicles. The vehicles, ordinarily, in a case of this 7 magnitude, would -- would not have been examined outside, 8 they would be -- would have been normally collected and 9 towed to a garage where they would be examined 10 extensively under much more controlled circumstances. 11 Q: All right. But you're not in charge, 12 or it's not your decision as to how or where this 13 investigation's going to take place; that's outside of 14 your area? 15 A: Yes. The decisions to examine the 16 vehicles and the scene were not mine, they were made by 17 other people. 18 Q: All right. And I -- I take you back 19 to Mr. Roland's cross-examination where he suggested to 20 you that perhaps there might have been more to this sand 21 pile than you were able to determine or determined at the 22 time with your metal detector; do you remember that line 23 of questioning? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: I take it if you were of the
1571 impression that you required further investigation or you 2 needed that sand pile to be examined more, you were able 3 to do so? You would have had the opportunity to do so? 4 A: In -- in 20/20 hindsight, of course, 5 I -- in an ideal world, that would have been one of the 6 options open to me. 7 Q: But the fact that you didn't do it 8 indicates it wasn't a concern for you in conducting this 9 investigation? 10 A: It wasn't a big concern to me at the 11 time, sir, no. 12 Q: All right. And I -- I put you in the 13 place of the SIU investigation at the same time there's 14 an OPP investigation occurring, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And at no point in time did anybody 17 from the OPP determine that that would have been a good 18 thing to do at that time? 19 A: That's quite -- that's quite correct. 20 They had the -- the site was available to them as it was 21 to us. 22 Q: Okay. That was my follow-up 23 question. Thank you, sir. Those are all my questions, 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1581 Mr. Scullion. 2 Mr. Roy do you have some questions? 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: I have no questions, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Roy. 7 Do you have any questions, Ms. Twohig...? 8 MS. KIM TWOHIG: No, I don't, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 10 Millar...? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: I have just a couple of questions. 17 The first was: Mr. Roland referred to the bus having 18 been driven around and you said you had no knowledge of 19 that; do you recall that question? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 1, 22 Exhibit P-1735, Inquiry Document 1004473. 23 On November -- excuse me, on September 24 20th, it's at page 10, I note that in the second -- the 25 first full paragraph:
1591 "During the time that Mr. Miller and I 2 were examining the brown Chrysler 3 vehicle, a yellow school bus was pushed 4 into the area by a multi-coloured brown 5 pickup truck. The school bus was left 6 unattended for examination at a later 7 date." 8 And so the bus was pushed to where you 9 were going to examine it? 10 A: Yes, that's right. 11 Q: And My Friend asked you about -- said 12 to you that -- Mr. Roland, that with respect to the 13 examinations in August of 1996, that the 50 metre by 50 14 metre area you examined was the shrine area. And I 15 believe that you responded, Yes. And I would like you to 16 look at, again, the same exhibit, P-1735, page 12. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the second paragraph on August -- 19 Tuesday, August -- Thursday, August 22nd, 1996: 20 "I travelled to Sarnia, Ontario where I 21 met with SIU investigator, Jim 22 Kennedy." 23 And then you: 24 "Went to East Parkway Drive and Army 25 Camp Road where you met with First
1601 Nation members Layton Elijah, Judas 2 George and Glenn George. Lead 3 investigator Wayne Allen was also 4 present at this time. 5 Mr. Kennedy and I were permitted to 6 examine the shrine area which had been 7 erected west of the entrance gate to 8 Ipperwash Park, which was situate 9 opposite the east end of East Parkway 10 Drive. 11 This was the first time that SIU 12 investigators had been permitted to 13 examine the ground area for physical 14 evidence with permission of the 15 Natives." 16 So it was on August the 22nd that you 17 examined the shrine area? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then you returned on August the 20 27th, 1996 and again met this time with Layton Elijah, 21 Judas George, Pierre George and examined the east side of 22 the gate on the inside of the Park; is that correct? 23 A: Yes, that's right, sir. 24 Q: And the 50 metre by 50 metre area 25 that you examined was on the inside of the gate of the
1611 Park? 2 A: That's correct, sir, yes. 3 Q: In the actual Park itself? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it was not the shrine area which 6 was located outside the Park? 7 A: No. That was my mistake, Mr. Millar. 8 Earlier in my evidence I lumped the two (2) examinations 9 into the same date erroneously. 10 They were two (2) separate examinations on 11 two (2) separate dates. 12 Q: And Mr. Roland took you to Exhibit P- 13 1758, do you recall the -- the exhibit collection report? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I don't have a photocopy. I've 16 asked for a photocopy to be made but on the screen, 17 Commissioner, is a copy of Exhibit -- it's Inquiry 18 Document 1005598 and this refers to: 19 "On October 24th, 1995, the writer and 20 company of investigators Allen and 21 Wilson attended Camp Ipperwash. At 22 12:30 p.m. we met with lawyer Colin 23 Brown and Layton Elijah who was 24 coordinating exhibits." 25 And the writer of this document is
1621 actually Mr. Miller. 2 And the exhibits were turned over to the 3 writer and at this time, an SUI exhibit collection report 4 was completed for each exhibit. 5 And are you aware of this document? Have 6 you seen this before? 7 A: I have seen that before, yes. 8 Q: And the -- then there's listed -- the 9 exhibits that are listed as part of Exhibit P-1758. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it -- I note that the -- a copy 12 of the form had been given to Mr. Elijah and Colin Brown, 13 I think it should be, on Thursday October 12th, 1995. 14 And these -- Exhibit P-1758 was made for the purpose of 15 giving a copy to Mr. Elijah as well as for the records of 16 the SUI; is that your understanding? 17 A: It's -- it's quite possible, sir. I 18 don't remember specifically. 19 Q: Okay, thank you. Those are my 20 questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Millar. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could take 24 the afternoon break and before we do, I'd like to thank 25 Mr. Thompson for coming back again.
1631 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Mr. Thompson -- 3 THE WITNESS: You're most welcome, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for 5 coming back. Thank you, sir. 6 7 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long 10 will the break be? Will it be the usual break? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I just have to - 12 - the usual fifteen (15) minute break, because we need to 13 check on our witness. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 If there's -- if the break is going to be longer, we'll 16 announce it. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 2:54 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 3:14 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1641 resumed. Please be seated. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 Hello, hello. 4 MS. FRAN HANNAHSON: Hello. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 6 we get -- begin with the next witness, on Friday I'd 7 referred to a document that Ms. Panjer had referred to in 8 her examination of Mr. Richardson and I thought we had 9 reserved a number but the Registrar tells me that I was 10 going to deal with it first thing this morning and I 11 forgot. 12 But the document was Inquiry Document 13 Number 20011441, a fax -- it's a fax cover sheet from 14 Detective Sergeant T.E. Richardson to Superintendent T. 15 Parkin dated February 6th, 1997 with an attached 16 memorandum re. Ipperwash Prosecutions. And I would ask 17 that that be marked the next Exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1759 Your Honour. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. And I have 20 a copy here for the Registrar. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1759: Document Number 2001441. Fax 23 from D/Sgt T. E. Richardson 24 to Supt. T. Parkin re. 25 Ipperwash Prosecutions,
1651 February 06, 1997. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Worme, good afternoon. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, 6 Commissioner. Commissioner, we call as the next witness 7 Fran Hannahson. 8 Mr. Registrar, Ms. Hannahson will swear on 9 the bible. 10 11 FRAN HANNAHSON, Sworn 12 13 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: First of all, Ms. Hannahson, thank 15 you very much for coming here today. 16 A: You're welcome. 17 Q: Ms. Hannahson, you were and have been 18 residing in the Ipperwash area, or at least as a summer 19 vacationer, can I put it that way? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you tell us where your 22 vacation spot was in September of 1995? 23 A: It's at the end of Army Camp Road, 24 the white cottage at the end of Army Camp Road, where 25 Army Camp Road turns into East Ipperwash.
1661 Q: All right. That is right on the 2 corner of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 3 Parkway; do we have that right? 4 A: Exactly. 5 Q: And if you turn around, right behind 6 you on the easel there is a map, it's an aerial map 7 that's been marked in these proceedings as Exhibit P- 8 1486. Do you recognize that map, first of all, Ms. 9 Hannahson? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And you might find a laser pointer 12 just to the side of you -- oh you have that. Might you 13 just show us, first of all, can you just describe that 14 pointing to the map beside you, please? 15 A: Yes, this is where the cottage is. 16 Q: Just one moment, please. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She needs 18 the hand mic. 19 THE WITNESS: Use the hand mic, okay. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. The cottage is 24 situated here, this is the driveway -- 25
1671 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: You might want to just -- I'm sorry 3 to interrupt you Ms. Hannahson, you might just want to 4 hold the mic up, thank you. 5 A: The cottage is situated here, this is 6 the driveway, this is Army Camp Road, and this is East 7 Parkway. 8 Q: You'll see that there's a marking on 9 there, on that particular map already, it reads: "The 10 sandy parking lot." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You're familiar with that lot? 13 A: I am. 14 Q: And you know where the Park entrance 15 would be located? 16 A: Down here. 17 Q: All right. There is also a turnstile 18 just at -- 19 A: Right here. And an emergency 20 entrance here. 21 Q: I'm sorry? 22 A: The turnstile was about here and the 23 emergency entrance was here. 24 Q: Perhaps you -- just while you're 25 looking at that map, can you indicate to us where the
1681 Park store was located? 2 A: It would be located in here. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme, I 4 think you have to put something on the record where she 5 makes a mark. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I thank you for that, 7 Commissioner. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: I see that you're noting with the 11 laser pointer and I'm going to have some difficulty in 12 explaining this, but it seems to me that there is a -- 13 A: This is the parking lot for the 14 overflow for the park. 15 Q: And just for the purposes of our 16 written record, Mrs. Hannahson, the parking lot -- the 17 overflow parking lot you're referring to is adjacent to 18 the sandy parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And as you follow the road along, 21 which would be a continuation of East Parkway Drive, if 22 we can put it that way, through the Park, you're coming 23 in a bit of a ways and are indicating a spot just to the 24 south where the store was located? 25 A: Exactly. There's a bush here and the
1691 store was right behind the bush. 2 Q: All right. And when you say, the 3 bush was here, you're locate -- you're indicating a 4 position just -- 5 A: On the corner -- 6 Q: -- adjacent to Army Camp Road? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: To the south of what would be East 9 Parkway Drive if it continued on through to the Parkway? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. Similarly, 12 there was also a building that we have had described to 13 us as a -- the kiosk. 14 Do you know where that would have been 15 located Mrs. Hannahson? 16 A: It was behind the store, there was a 17 grassy knoll and then it was behind the store. And you 18 would come in the entrance down here to register at this 19 kiosk. It was this side of the creek, the west side of 20 the creek. 21 Q: All right. And you've indicated the 22 entrance being just south on Army Camp Road, and as you 23 follow that up, just past the area -- that's the creek, 24 that's where the kiosk was located? 25 A: It was -- it was just in here, yes.
1701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: It could have been -- there was two 4 (2) roads. I think a road went around. There was only 5 one (1) other building in that -- on that side; like it 6 was right behind the Park, right behind the Park store. 7 Q: Thank you for that, Ms. Hannahson. 8 Now perhaps you might just tell us about the time that 9 you would spend during there. I take it you didn't live 10 at the -- at the cottage you've just described for us, 11 full time? 12 A: No. We didn't. We just holidayed 13 there on long weekends and a couple a weeks a year in the 14 summer, in July. 15 Q: And how long had you been attending 16 to that particular cottage? 17 A: About -- I think, the first time I 18 went up there was 1958. 19 Q: All right. And had this been in your 20 family prior to that? 21 A: It was in my husband's family, 22 there's five (5) generations at this point in time, so a 23 hundred (100) years. 24 Q: When you first came to this location 25 in -- you say 1958, I understand that you had grown up in
1711 St. Catharines. 2 A: I had. 3 Q: And you would generally spend two (2) 4 or three (3) weeks there, am I -- am I correct in that, 5 each summer? 6 A: Approximately. 7 Q: Did you get to know the -- the issues 8 that were going on within the -- within the area at that 9 point in time or up to 1995? 10 A: Not really. Not really. 11 Q: For example, in 1993, were you aware 12 that -- that the Army Camp, first of all, was formerly an 13 Indian Reservation? 14 A: I did know that. 15 Q: Can you tell us how you would have 16 came to this knowledge? 17 A: Probably through my father-in-law. 18 He talked about history and such things, about things 19 that took place up in that area; mostly about when he was 20 a child building the home; building the five (5) cottages 21 that were along the beach. And I was aware that it was 22 Stoney Point Reserve. 23 Q: Were you -- did you have any 24 knowledge with respect to the Park, whether or not that 25 was part of the Reserve at all?
1721 A: My understanding of that, was that it 2 was part of the Reserve, the property had been sold to a 3 private individual who in turn sold it to the Provincial 4 Park -- or the Provincial Government. 5 Q: And prior to 1995, were you aware of 6 any claims of a burial ground within the boundaries of 7 the Provincial Park? 8 A: No, I was not. 9 Q: What about with respect just to the 10 Army Camp; were you aware that there was a burial ground 11 in there? 12 A: No, I was not. 13 Q: Were you aware, Ms. Hannahson, that 14 the Army Camp had been occupied since 1993 by people that 15 were claiming that as their original Reserve? 16 A: I was aware of that. 17 Q: All right. Had you any interaction 18 with these folks or had your family to your knowledge had 19 any interaction? 20 A: No, they did not. 21 Q: You had mentioned that your father- 22 in-law had spoken to you and perhaps others in the family 23 about the history of what's been called Stoney -- Stoney 24 Point? 25 A: More of his history involved in his
1731 family. 2 Q: Do you know what relationship if any, 3 that he or his family had with the people that have been 4 described as the Stoney Pointers? 5 A: I don't think a lot. I don't think a 6 lot. 7 Q: And I understand, Ms. Hannahson, that 8 on September the 4th of 1995 that you became aware that 9 there was something going on at the Park and perhaps you 10 might just tell us about that. 11 A: Well, late afternoon around supper 12 time, the family members in the three (3) cottages had 13 left and I was staying for an extra week and had kept my 14 four (4) year old grandson with me. 15 And it was early evening that my sister- 16 in-law who was in the house above me that sits on a 17 higher hill than what -- I'm down in a lower section, had 18 called out her porch window and just said, "Fran, come 19 here." 20 And she was the one that told me that they 21 had taken over the Park. 22 Q: Would you tell us please, who that 23 sister-in-law was or what -- 24 A: Isobel -- 25 Q: -- she told --
1741 A: -- Jago. 2 Q: And what she told you. 3 A: And she just simply said that the 4 Natives had gone in and occupied -- and are occupying the 5 Park. 6 Q: What, as a result of this information 7 did you do or how -- how did you take it? 8 A: I guess I probably just said, Oh. 9 Q: All right. Perhaps, you might just 10 indicate on -- on the map that's again behind you that's 11 been marked as 1468, where did Mrs. Jago reside? 12 A: Her house was right here, above mine, 13 on the property next door. 14 Q: And I understand that that property 15 next door is a single storey structure, and yours is a 16 two-storey? 17 A: Exactly. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Mr. Millar makes a good suggestion, I 22 think. And perhaps if there is a marking device there, a 23 pen of some description beside you, could you just 24 perhaps put a number 1 at your residence and a number 2 25 at Mrs. Jago's residence, please?
1751 And then we will mark this as -- yes, 2 please. We will mark this as the next exhibit, 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1760, Your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1760. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1760: Aerial digital map of sandy 9 parking lot marked by Ms. 10 Fran Hannahson, June 19, 11 2006. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: I wonder, as we look at that map as 15 well, Mrs. Hannahson, because we will come to this in a 16 bit, can you tell us what your view is from -- from your 17 -- from your cottage. 18 As you look towards the Park, for example, 19 or as you look towards and down Army Camp Road, what can 20 you see from -- from your house, from your cottage? 21 A: If I was standing in the door of the 22 kitchen on the main floor, I can see straight up Army 23 Camp Road. If I go upstairs to the top bedrooms, I can 24 see out of a side window into the sandy or into the Park 25 area, the overflow Park area.
1761 2 And from the front window I can see -- I 3 could see the store and the kiosk where you would pay to 4 get into the Park and this area all in here. But I 5 cannot see this corner. 6 Q: And again, just for the purposes of 7 the record, you're indicating that you can see the area 8 that we know has been described as the camping ground 9 area, from -- from your side window? 10 A: Well, they never camped in this area. 11 It was an overflow, but I never ever saw it being used. 12 The camp was on the other side of the creek -- 13 Q: All right. All right, thank you for 14 that. You've indicated an area that is essentially 15 enclosed by a road that goes around it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And you've indicated that 18 you cannot see the entrance or, pardon me, the area that 19 you've described as where the turnstile was and the sandy 20 parking lot area. 21 A: Exactly. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, perhaps you 23 just might indicate, again with the marker that you have, 24 if you'd put a number 3 at the area that you could not 25 see, I suppose, if that's -- if that's one way to put it.
1771 Perhaps you can just draw an area that your vision would 2 have otherwise been obscured from it. 3 All right, thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: I also want to just refer you to the 8 book of documents in front of you, Mrs. Hannahson. At 9 Tab number 9... 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: There is a -- a hand drawn diagram in 12 that. Do you recognize that? 13 A: I do. 14 Q: And that was drawn by your son, Kevin 15 at -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- our last meeting in St. 18 Catharines? 19 A: Exactly. 20 Q: And that is a depiction of the 21 upstairs level of the cottage, that -- 22 A: The second -- 23 Q: -- you've just described? 24 A: The second floor, yes. 25 Q: And the windows that you've
1781 described, looking out of those are marked in there? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the area to the lakeside, you 4 would normally call that the front of the house; is that 5 correct? 6 A: I would. 7 Q: And the part on the left -- pardon 8 me, on the right side of the page where the "S" is for 9 south, the two (2) bedrooms, that is what you would 10 describe as the back -- 11 A: Back of the house. 12 Q: And is it from the bedroom with the 13 window on it that you can see straight down Army Camp 14 Road? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Perhaps, we can mark that as the next 17 exhibit, Commissioner. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1761, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1761: Hand drawn layout of interior 21 of Hannahson cottage. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: I understand, Mrs. Hannahson, that 25 your sister-in-law, Isobel Jago, had passed away rather
1791 recently? 2 A: She did. 3 Q: As I understood your earlier 4 testimony, Mrs. Hannahson, that typically you would have 5 left, as well, from the cottage on Labour Day? 6 A: Yes, I always had in the past. 7 Q: And this was the first time that you 8 would have stayed beyond Labour Day? 9 A: Yes. The reason for that was -- it 10 was the first September that I wasn't working. 11 Q: I believe you had mentioned that you 12 had your grandson with you, as well? 13 A: I did. 14 Q: And was there anybody else that 15 stayed behind besides you and your grandson? 16 A: Isobel -- not in my house. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Unless you want to count the dog. 19 Q: There was the family pet was there, 20 as well? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I understand that that wasn't 23 your dog? 24 A: Well, it was -- it was our dog, yeah, 25 the dog was our dog, but, yes.
1801 Q: And your grandson would not start 2 junior kindergarten until the following weekend, so you 3 had decided to spend an extra week; is that fair? 4 A: Exactly. 5 Q: Had you, up to that point, Ms. 6 Hannahson, had any knowledge of the potential that the 7 Park might be occupied following its normal closure on 8 the 4th of September? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Do you know whether Mrs. Jago had 11 that information? 12 A: I can't say. 13 Q: The dog, as you've described it, can 14 you tell us anything about that dog, particularly on the 15 evening of September the 4th, did you notice anything 16 different about -- about your -- about the dog? 17 A: The dog became very nervous and never 18 went too far away from the house, and if I went out, he 19 followed me. Like if I went out of the yard, the dog was 20 there. If I was in the house, he was around, but 21 underneath the porch, sort of thing. So he stayed very 22 close to the house. 23 Q: And was that typical behaviour? 24 A: He just became very nervous, he 25 wasn't himself at all. Like there was just -- he just
1811 seemed very nervous. He certainly never hid under the 2 porch like he did those couple of days. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: It was under Isobel's porch he was 5 hiding. 6 Q: And was this a dog that stayed in the 7 house or stayed outside? 8 A: He was not a house dog. He was a 9 very large German Shepherd and spent more of his time 10 outside. Like he wasn't in our home in St. Catharines 11 but he did come in the cottage. He spent time on the 12 bottom floor of the cottage in the front porch. 13 Q: And given the way the dog was acting, 14 did the dog stay outside on the 4th of September? 15 A: The one (1) night I did keep the dog 16 in the house, and in the morning I had a lovely present. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: All over my livingroom. 19 Q: All right. Are you -- 20 A: And then -- then I didn't -- I didn't 21 let him stay in after that. 22 Q: All right. And I understand that on 23 the night of September the 4th that you didn't get a lot 24 of sleep that night? 25 A: Well, I sleep in the other bedroom at
1821 the end of the -- the opposite end of the hall and I 2 sleep right underneath the window and you can hear 3 everything that's going on. It's very quiet up there at 4 night and so you hear, you know, whatever is going on. 5 Q: What about traffic, either on Army 6 Camp Road, East Parkway Drive or anywhere else? 7 A: I don't recall there being much 8 traffic on Army Camp Road, but there would be cars that 9 would be driving out of -- down the road on the Army 10 Camp. There's a fence line and there's another road that 11 runs parallel to Army Camp Road and there would be cars 12 travelling on that road. And then I would hear them come 13 into the parking lot and they would be driving around 14 there. 15 Q: We have up on the big screen beside 16 you, Mrs. Hannahson, a picture that's been marked in 17 these proceedings. 18 I understand this is not marked so we will 19 mark this right next. 20 And do you recognize that, first of all? 21 A: I do. 22 Q: And perhaps if you can just use the 23 pointer that you have and tell us what it is that we're 24 looking at. 25 A: Okay. This is the back door, this is
1831 the window that I would -- that I could see out of -- or 2 that I was actually looking out of. 3 Q: All right. Let me just stop you 4 there if I may. You're pointing to the house to the 5 upper left -- the house depicted in the upper left, a 6 portion of the photograph, you've marked -- or you've 7 showed us initially the -- is that a door or a window? 8 A: Back door. 9 Q: That's the back door? 10 A: It's a back door. 11 Q: The bottom right hand side of the 12 building is -- in the direction we're looking at? 13 And the window directly above it, that is 14 the window that you've told us you were looking out of? 15 A: That I would be looking out of, yes. 16 And this is the room that my grandson was in. 17 Q: You're pointing now to the window on 18 the left side? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And the room I would be in is back 22 there. You can't see the window. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. 24 A: And this is the living room here. 25 Q: You mentioned, Mrs. Hannahson,
1841 vehicles would be travelling on the road on the Army Camp 2 -- that is on the Army Base -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- on the road adjacent to Army Camp 5 Road. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And as these roads -- were travelling 8 on that, could you -- could you see them from your -- 9 from your house -- from your cottage? 10 A: Yes. If I was in the bedroom at 11 night the lights from the vehicles travelling down that 12 road shine on the window and shine right through the 13 room. They would first shine on the window and as they 14 got a little closer, they would shine on the front wall 15 of the house, the window 16 -- the windows were opposite each other. So the light 17 would go right through my bedroom. 18 Q: On the night of September 4th, is 19 there anything else that you can tell us that you have 20 any recall -- recall of today? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I don't believe so. That was a 25 fairly quiet night. There were bonfires and cars driving
1851 around, coming and going. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: There's one (1) more photograph 6 that's up on the big screen, Ms. Hannahson, do you see 7 that, and do you recognize that at all? 8 A: This is the house here. 9 Q: All right. That's the cottage you're 10 pointing at. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: That's photograph number 30. Right? 13 A: Yes, that's the cottage. 14 Q: And that would be facing north or 15 towards the lake from Army Camp Road; is that correct? 16 A: This is the back -- oh, yes this is 17 the back facing... 18 Q: You're indicating Army Camp Road? 19 A: Army Camp Road. 20 Q: Right. Thank you. Perhaps, 21 Commissioner, if we can just -- I'll as that those two 22 (2) photographs be marked as the next exhibit. That's 23 photograph number 6 and number 30. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1762, Your Honour. 25
1861 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1762: Photographs number 0006 and 2 number 0030. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: Perhaps we can move then to the -- 6 the morning of September the 5th of 1995, Mrs. Hannahson. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: I understand that at some point in 9 time you observed on the beach area near your cottage, a 10 police cruiser. 11 A: There was a cruiser parked down at 12 the bottom of the hill. 13 Q: And again, looking at the map that -- 14 that is beside you, and we will perhaps give that a new 15 exhibit number if we have not already. 16 THE REGISTRAR: We have given that 17 Exhibit Number P-1760. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: He was parked down here so that he -- 22 Q: Perhaps, you might just put a number 23 4 where you recall that police cruiser being parked, Ms. 24 Hannahson. 25
1871 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Thank you. 4 Observing that police cruiser, did you 5 note how many officers might have been there? 6 A: No, I didn't. 7 Q: Did you have any communication with 8 them at all? Did you speak with them? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Can you tell us what you did on that 11 day, September the 5th? 12 A: I spent most of the day in Forest 13 with my grandson. 14 Q: And why was that? 15 A: He was there at the cottage to have 16 fun with his grandmother, and I didn't feel comfortable 17 being out around the house so I just decided to get in 18 the car, take him into town, take him to the library, 19 take him to the park, go for a walk up and down the main 20 street and enjoy our afternoon and -- and enjoy our 21 afternoon. 22 Q: What was it that made you feel 23 uncomfortable such that you felt you should leave and go 24 into town? 25
1881 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Well, I was probably thinking more of 4 my grandson, that he was an impressionable young, small 5 four (4) year old, and I just felt that I would take him 6 out of the situation rather than just stay at the house. 7 Q: I take it at some point in time you 8 would have returned to the cottage, or the house, as 9 you've described it? 10 A: You mean if I had gone home Labour 11 Day, or...? 12 Q: No, no, I'm sorry. I've -- I didn't 13 word that very well. After being in Forest, at some 14 point in time you and your grandson Zachary would have 15 returned -- 16 A: Oh, of course. 17 Q: -- to the -- to the cottage. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you know when that was and 20 what happened when you did return? 21 A: I'm not quite, totally, in my mind, 22 clear as to how the incidents took place or in what 23 manner they took place, but I came back to the cottage, 24 drove up the driveway. 25 Some time that day, whether it was before
1891 I had gone to Forest or after I come back, there was an 2 officer standing down the driveway and I did motion for 3 him to come towards me. 4 And I did speak to that officer. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: And after -- 7 Q: Where -- 8 A: -- I had come back from Forest, I 9 also went up to my sister-in-law's place for a few 10 minutes. 11 Q: Okay. And speaking to the officer, 12 firstly, what was -- what was said? 13 A: Well, I simply -- because no one had 14 spoken to me, no officers had spoken to me, I just asked 15 him if he thought that perhaps I shouldn't be there, and 16 his answer to my question was, I can't tell you what to 17 do, but if you were my wife, you wouldn't be here. 18 Q: Okay. And what did you make of that 19 comment? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Well, I was -- I was certainly 24 concerned enough that I thought, well, okay, I'm not 25 putting myself out at the corner or I'm trying to stay as
1901 low profile as I can, staying out of the way, let the 2 police and the Natives take care of the situation that 3 they're dealing with. 4 And because you're in -- on your own 5 property in your own home, you have a false sense of 6 security. 7 But I did feel if something more -- not 8 that anyone would think this would be the end all of it, 9 I did start bringing things from inside, putting things 10 away and, you know, trying to get the place packed up in 11 order for -- if I had to leave, if I was going to leave. 12 I was -- I was starting -- there were 13 things that I was going to have to do before I could go, 14 let's put it that way. 15 Q: So you would have property, things 16 outside the house, that you would want to put away. 17 A: Exactly, exactly. There were still 18 things that were sitting around outside that we would not 19 leave the cottage and leave out, because we would not be 20 returning if -- if I was leaving -- when -- when we would 21 leave at Labour Day or because I was staying that extra 22 few days, when we left that next weekend, we wouldn't be 23 back until Thanksgiving. 24 Q: All right. I understand, Mrs. 25 Hannahson, that at some point during the day you looked
1911 out of one (1) of your windows, or perhaps out of your 2 door, and you seen some police officers going across your 3 -- your property. 4 What can you tell us about that? 5 A: I did -- that was in the morning. I 6 did pull up the blind and I saw an officer running across 7 the driveway, and he fell down against the sandbank with 8 his rifle posed. 9 And I looked further along down the 10 driveway and I saw a vehicle in the middle of the road 11 and people were busy throwing picnic tables on this 12 vehicle. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: On the roadway. 15 Q: And let me just ask you a couple of 16 questions about what you've just told us now, if I may. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: You might just indicate on the map 19 again, that we've marked as -- as Exhibit 1760, just with 20 the pointer, first of all, as to where you see this 21 officer running and then fall down in the sand? 22 A: There's a row of trees along here and 23 then there's a fence. And he was just crossing the 24 driveway here and it's just where the fence -- about a 25 foot or so from where the fence begins.
1921 Q: Perhaps I can ask you to put a line 2 on there, if you may, as to the direction that he was 3 going and -- are we at number five (5) now? 4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are. 5 6 CONTINUED MY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: If you could put a number five (5) as 8 to where you see the Officer then, as you put it, fall 9 down? 10 Now, I'm not sure if I have your evidence 11 correctly, but you say that he was posing or holding 12 his -- 13 A: Well, he just fell down in the sand 14 because there was a bit of a bank of sand. And so he was 15 laying against the bank of sand and he had his rifle 16 resting on the top of the hill -- top of the sandbank. 17 Q: On the photograph that Mr. Miller has 18 put up on the big screen beside us, are you able to tell 19 us from that photograph where he might have been located? 20 A: It would be -- it would be in here 21 somewhere. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Because this is the row of trees 24 that's on a -- the top of a sandbank and then it comes 25 down and this was a fence. So it's just in here.
1931 Q: And you're indicating -- 2 A: It's from an odd angle that I'm 3 looking at it. 4 Q: And I understand that. 5 A: I'm looking at it from a very odd 6 angle. 7 Q: I appreciate -- I appreciate that 8 it's somewhat difficult from that. That gives us, I 9 think, a general sense as to where it is. And if I can 10 speak to that photograph it is just above, I think what 11 is a concrete block that is located there. 12 I take it that block wasn't there at the 13 time, in September of 1995? 14 A: I don't know when those blocks 15 appeared. 16 Q: All right. This person that you see 17 that you've marked now on the map, can you tell us how he 18 was dressed? 19 A: I just saw him running across and my 20 mind said it's a policeman. 21 Q: All right. I take it was at that 22 point in time that you decided that you would take your 23 grandson and leave the property for the day; is that -- 24 is that fair? 25 A: That could be part of the reason.
1941 Q: No, I'm not suggesting the reason -- 2 A: I never even -- I never -- I think 3 mostly it was just so that he had something to do, 4 because usually we would be down on the beach in front of 5 the house swimming, and I didn't feel that I wanted to 6 swim next to the Officer's car sitting down there, or we 7 would be throwing a ball up and down the back driveway, 8 or playing catch or, you know, playing -- hitting a ball 9 with a bat. 10 So because we wouldn't be doing these 11 things outside, I just decided that we would go into 12 town. 13 Q: Did you have any conversations with 14 any police officers on that day? 15 A: When I drove down the driveway there 16 was an Officer at the end of the driveway, I think I just 17 acknowledged he, and then I just pulled around the corner 18 and went down East Parkway. 19 Q: All right. And we know that there 20 were -- just before we move off this point, Ms. 21 Hannahson, on this photograph which is marked as 32, that 22 perhaps is a depiction looking northward toward the lake 23 on Army Camp Road, that would be your cottage up at the 24 upper left-hand corner, yes? 25 A: And here's the fence line, so it was
1951 just partway down that fence line, just around in here. 2 There is another cottage on the hill that overlooks the 3 parking lot; it was in front of that cottage. Like if 4 you wanted to parallel it, you come down, it would right 5 be opposite that cottage. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. We're of 7 course aware that there were now people in occupation of 8 the Provincial Park on the day that we're now speaking 9 about, we're into the 5th of September. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did you see anybody in the Park on 12 that date? 13 A: In the Park? 14 Q: Yes. What can you tell us about what 15 -- about people in the Park? Who did you see, can you 16 describe any of that for us, please? 17 A: Describe what I saw in the Park? 18 Q: Well, firstly, if you could see any 19 people? 20 A: Yes. There were -- there were always 21 people milling around; at times there were more than 22 others. At times there were families, you could see 23 women and children and, you know, men. 24 Q: Okay. Could you tell what they were 25 doing?
1961 A: They were just milling around, 2 standing in groups. There would be cars driving in. 3 During the daytime I do not recall any fires. And that's 4 -- that's -- what day is the 5th? 5 The 5th is Tuesday. So I did spend quite 6 a few hours away from the place that afternoon. So I was 7 not there for quite a few hours, quite a number of 8 hours. So there would be a huge chunk in that day that I 9 wasn't around. 10 Q: Fair enough. And we've had some 11 testimony here from folks that were inside the Park, tell 12 us that they were engaged in picnics, for example. Did 13 you see anything like that at all? 14 A: I did not see that, no. 15 Q: Did you see any helicopters flying 16 around? 17 A: There was one (1) helicopter that 18 came in off the water and it was hovering over the 19 parking lot. And there was a large group of people there 20 at that time. And the children were waving and there was 21 shouting. 22 And there was someone, I can just -- I can 23 still picture him hanging out of the helicopter. He was 24 kind of hanging out and I believe he had something in his 25 hand, possibly a camera.
1971 Q: Do I take from that you couldn't see 2 exactly what it was? 3 A: No. No. 4 Q: And the parking lot that you're 5 describing the helicopter hovering over, can you see it 6 on -- on the map that's beside you? 7 A: Right here. 8 Q: All right. You're indicating a dark 9 shaded area adjacent to the sandy parking lot? 10 A: When you're referring to the sandy 11 parking lot -- 12 Q: I'm -- I'm referring to that area 13 that's marked sandy parking lot, just adjacent to the 14 '5', right next to the '5'. 15 A: But that's what I -- okay. So the 16 sandy parking lot is the road allowance that goes down to 17 the beach. 18 Q: That's correct. 19 A: No. It was inside the Park. 20 Q: All right. Okay. Thank you. At any 21 point in time, Ms. Hannahson, did you hear any 22 communication, any talking, anything as between the 23 people inside the Park and -- and the police officers 24 that you've told us were outside the Park? 25 A: No, I did not. I would only hear
1981 kind of loud voices or shouting through those couple of 2 days and never anything that was, you know, verbal to me 3 that I -- that I would know what they were saying. 4 Q: Okay. And during the course of -- of 5 that period of time again, September the 4th and 5th, did 6 you notice any boats out on the water? 7 A: At night I saw a boat out in the 8 water and assumed that it was a police boat, because it 9 was sitting out off the Park land and a boat never ever 10 sits there. 11 Q: Do you recall -- on the night of 12 Tuesday, September the 5th of 1995, do you recall there 13 being any fires in the -- in the Park area? 14 A: Bonfires. 15 Q: Bonfires. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Tell us about that, if you would, and 18 what could you see? 19 A: There would be a number of bonfires. 20 And later on, after I'd gone to bed, so I mean it would 21 be after eleven o'clock, I kind of could hear just 22 voices, low voices and could hear the crackling of fire, 23 and realized that they had come out on the sandy parking 24 lot and that they had built a fire out there. 25 Q: In the sandy parking lot?
1991 A: In the sandy parking lot. 2 Q: And could you show us just again, and 3 looking at the map 1760 beside you, as to where that was? 4 A: So it would be out on the other side 5 of the fence. 6 Q: Perhaps you might just put a -- a '6' 7 there where you recall that fire being. 8 A: I couldn't see exactly where the fire 9 was. I could not see it from my door. So I have no idea 10 whether it was in the middle of the road or exactly how 11 far, you know, whether it was closer to the fence line or 12 whether it was right here in the middle. I -- I really 13 don't know exactly where it was. 14 Q: All right. Might it be inside the 15 Park? 16 A: No, it was not inside the Park. 17 Q: All right. Okay. Perhaps you just 18 might put a "6" in the area that you think that this fire 19 was located. 20 Q: I believe it was around in here 21 somewhere. 22 A: Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2001 Q: I'm going to ask you to turn to the 2 book of documents in front of you at Tab number 3, there 3 is Inquiry Document 1009635. It is a newspaper article 4 from the London Free Press, it's dated Thursday, 5 September the 7th of 1995; do you see that? 6 It's titled, "Burial Ground Claim 7 Question." 8 A: I do. 9 Q: And just in the very last column at 10 the bottom of the page, if you go halfway down. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you see your name there: 13 "Fran Hannahson --" 14 A: I do. 15 Q: "-- of St. Catharines said she could 16 hear Natives at their bonfire Tuesday 17 night, but the noise and disturbance 18 has not been any louder than an average 19 long weekend in the area. She could 20 hear what she later learned were rocks 21 being thrown at police. Tuesday night 22 three (3) police cruisers windshields 23 were broken by rocks, Babbit said." 24 And I'll just continue on: 25 "Hannahson said she is not frightened
2011 of the situation but is cautious. She 2 now walks down the beach, away from the 3 Park, to swim and moved her boat and 4 trailer to another cottage." 5 Do you recall giving -- giving that 6 information to any newspaper reporters, Mrs. Hannahson? 7 A: No, I do not. 8 Q: Is that, in fact, the -- the 9 circumstance though, as you recall it; that you could 10 hear the Natives at their bonfire on Tuesday night? 11 A: I could hear the Natives at their 12 bonfire Tuesday night, and this would be after I went to 13 bed, when I'm making reference to the noise and being not 14 any louder than just people on a -- at a bonfire on the 15 beach. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Now the reference to the rock 18 throwing, I'm not sure I'm totally sure whether that 19 happened earlier in the evening. That's possible it 20 happened earlier in the evening. 21 Q: All right. Perhaps you could -- 22 A: Not -- not later in the evening. 23 Q: And just before I ask that this be 24 made the next exhibit, I wonder if you could tell us 25 about the rock throwing that's referred to here.
2021 What do you recall about that, if 2 anything? 3 A: I believe that my sister-in-law 4 Isobel had told me about it. I don't recall seeing that. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: If we can ask that this Inquiry 7 Document 1009635 be made the next exhibit, please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1763, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1763: Document Number 1009635. 11 London Free Press article, 12 "Burial Ground Claim 13 Questioned", September 07, 14 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: It goes on to read that you were not 18 frightened of the situation, but you were cautious. Does 19 that, as well, set out how you were feeling at that point 20 in time? 21 A: Yes. I think when you're in a 22 situation you just deal with what's happening around you 23 and because you're staying away from the conflicts, you 24 have a false sense of security. 25 Q: If you turn to the next document in
2031 that book of documents, at Tab number 4, Mrs. Hannahson. 2 I can tell you that this is a newspaper article from the 3 Sarnia Observer dated Thursday September 7th, 1995. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I'm going to refer you to the 6 second page of that, if you would, please. 7 It's Inquiry document 2001841. You see on 8 the second page the heading at the top of the page, "Sky 9 Red Like Blood, said nearby resident"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And if you go down in the middle 12 column, towards the end of that column. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You see where it reads: 15 "All that separates Fran Hannahson's 16 white bricked cottage and the native 17 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park 18 is a ribbon of sand. 19 On Wednesday, prior to the shooting, 20 she didn't second guess extending a 21 three (3) week vacation at the family- 22 owned cottage with four (4) year old 23 grandson, Zachary. Five (5) 24 generations of Hannahson -- of the 25 Hannahson family have been coming to
2041 Ipperwash to summer on the Lake Huron 2 beach. 3 But leaving never entered the St. 4 Catharines' woman's mind. I am 5 cautious, not stupid." 6 A: I do not recall ever saying I'm 7 cautious, not stupid. I don't recall any of this. 8 Q: And let me just go on, then. And it 9 reads, and I quote: 10 "She admits, quote, 'sleeping with one 11 (1) eye open', end quote, since natives 12 occupied the camp on Monday. When they 13 took over the Camp Ipperwash Army base 14 in July, quote, 'we were far enough 15 away', end quote." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You see it -- if you go down two (2) 18 more paragraphs there is a quote from you, apparently: 19 "'I'm cautious. I'm apprehensive. But 20 I'm not really frightened', Mrs. 21 Hannahson said. 'I can't see them 22 bothering us, but you never know when 23 there's drinking going on. It's been 24 no worse than any of the parties on the 25 beach during the summer.'"
2051 A: Right. 2 Q: And again I take it that you don't 3 recall giving any of those comments? 4 A: I do not recall giving any of those 5 comments. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I'll ask that that be 7 marked the next Exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1764 Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1764: Document Number 2001841. 11 Sarnia Observer article, "One 12 Dead, Two Injured in Shootout 13 at Ipperwash," September 07, 14 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: And I take it you take no issue with 18 those comments that that is consistent with the way that 19 you felt and what you told us about how you were feeling, 20 at least on that -- at that point in time? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You've told us that the sounds that 23 you could hear around the fire, the Natives around their 24 bonfire that went on after you went to sleep -- 25 A: Yes.
2061 Q: -- or went to bed rather? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the dog that you had told us 4 about, I take it he didn't stay in the house given the 5 situation you had to deal with? 6 A: That's right. He was only in the 7 house one (1) night. 8 Q: And do you know where the dog stayed 9 after that? 10 A: I -- I believe that he slept 11 underneath Isobel's porch. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Which is very close to the window 14 that's at the top of my bed because the porch is up on 15 the top of a hill and I'm on the second floor and we're 16 about the same level. 17 Q: I understand. On the morning of 18 September the 6th, Mrs. Hannahson, we are told by others 19 that -- that that is when the picnic tables were moved 20 from the Beach Access Road. 21 A: Oh, okay. 22 Q: Does that help you at all in terms of 23 -- in terms of your recollection, as to what you've just 24 told about might have occurred? 25 A: It was Tuesday morning when I came
2071 downstairs. And when I put the blind up that I saw a 2 small, red car at the end of the driveway. It was 3 Wednesday morning that when I came down that I saw the 4 officer run across the driveway and I saw them putting 5 the picnic tables -- 6 Q: So that does help -- 7 A: --in the vehicle. 8 Q: -- your recollection? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Wednesday would be September the 11 6th of 1995? 12 A: It was Wednesday, yes. It was also 13 Wednesday, the helicopter incident, yes. 14 Q: Thank you. If I can ask you to look 15 at the document at Tab 8, it is a statement of Sergeant 16 Huntley, it's been marked as Exhibit P-1438. And if you 17 look at the third paragraph of that and it reads: 18 "I spoke to Fran Hannahson who lives 19 next to the road allowance after the 20 barricade was removed. She expressed 21 concern for her safety and she also 22 advised she witnessed the cruisers 23 being pelted by rocks the night before. 24 I then had checkpoint 'A' moved to the 25 corner of Army Camp Road and East
2081 Parkway Drive, this was located at the 2 base of Hannahson's driveway." 3 Do you recall expressing concern for your 4 safety to any police officers and, in particular, to a 5 Sergeant Huntley? 6 A: That could have been when I spoke to 7 the officer about whether I should leave. 8 Q: Okay. And when you told us that he 9 indicated, I can't tell you what to do but, if you were 10 my wife -- 11 A: Yes -- 12 Q: -- you wouldn't be here -- 13 A: -- yes -- 14 Q: -- sort of thing? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And you see where he -- 17 where he records: 18 "She also advised she witnessed the 19 cruisers being pelted by rocks the 20 night before." 21 A: I do not recall seeing that. 22 Q: And lastly, he goes on to record that 23 he moved a checkpoint to the base of your driveway. Do 24 you recall seeing a checkpoint, a police checkpoint that 25 is, at the base of your driveway?
2091 A: What would a checkpoint consist of? 2 Q: Perhaps, police cars or some sort of 3 a barricade or some such? 4 A: I only went out that driveway three 5 (3) times during the entire incident. And when I did I 6 just drove and really just left, you know, kind of -- I 7 just left. I don't recall there were people on that 8 corner. You know, there were -- there was people on that 9 corner. There were officers, there were newspaper people 10 with cameras, you know, there was things happening. 11 But during the day I really paid little 12 attention, other than if I went through there, to what 13 was happening. 14 Q: Can I ask you just lastly on this 15 point, Ms. Hannahson, to turn to the document at Tab 16 number 2. It's Inquiry Document 1000676. I can tell you 17 that this is a Globe and Mail article. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Dated September the 7th of '95 and if 20 you go to the bottom right column, it's all part of the 21 same story. And the second -- third last full paragraph, 22 it reads: 23 "Nearby resident Fran Hannahson said 24 police had their guns drawn and were, 25 [quote] "Running and flopping in the
2101 sand" [end quote] before they removed 2 the barrier. 3 The night before Indians hurled stones 4 at the police cruisers." 5 Again, I'll ask you if you remember saying 6 these and I think you -- we have your evidence on that 7 that you don't have a recollection of that. 8 A: I do not. There was one (1) 9 newspaper person that came down the driveway and wanted 10 to interview me and I said I'm not interested in being 11 interviewed and I do not want to be quoted. 12 I can't recall what I said to the 13 individual and if they had asked me questions and I had 14 answered them. I kept saying I do not want to be quoted. 15 I do not recall -- I did not speak directly to any 16 newspaper people and say I'd like to give a statement. 17 Q: Perhaps, we can -- we can mark this 18 as the next exhibit, 1765. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1765: Document Number 1000676. 22 Toronto Globe and Mail 23 article, "Two Reported Shot 24 at Ipperwash Protest," 25 September 07, 1995.
2111 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 3 Q: After making these observations, Ms. 4 Hannahson, and you'll recall in the previous news article 5 I had taken you to, that you had mentioned or at least 6 you're recorded as mentioning that you went and took your 7 grandson the opposite direction from the Park. 8 A: There was one (1) day -- I only took 9 him swimming the once, and we did go out of the front of 10 the house and we went across the hill and down the beach 11 and we went in the water further down the beach away from 12 the police cruiser. 13 Q: When you say the police cruiser, I 14 take it that that cruiser remained there throughout the 15 period we're talking about? 16 A: It was sitting -- it was sitting 17 there during the day time. I do not recall it being 18 there in the evening, like at -- at dark. 19 Q: As you went down the beach with your 20 grandson, I take it the dog would have went along? 21 A: The dog never seemed to -- I mean, I 22 never left the house, just that once walking, and he 23 followed us across the top of the hill and when I got a 24 distance down the beach he came down off the hill and 25 literally just kind of turned me around and made me go
2121 back. 2 I guess the dog figured I had gone far 3 enough and he didn't want me going any further. 4 Q: All right. You then took further 5 steps in order to prepare yourself to leave your 6 residence at some point throughout that day; is that 7 right? 8 A: Are we on Wednesday? 9 Q: We're on Wednesday the 6th of 10 September, yes. 11 A: Yes. I had a boat in the driveway 12 that I felt that I probably should get out of there. And 13 since I didn't have a trailer hitch, I took my grandson 14 up to my sister-in-law's house and she looked after him 15 while I got in the car and I just drove down the back 16 road, drove up Richardson Drive and stopped at somebody's 17 house that had a boat in the driveway and a handyman in 18 the driveway. 19 He was in his garage working. I asked him 20 if he would come down to the beach, hook up the boat and 21 take it to his house. So I followed him back down, he 22 hooked the boat up. I followed him back to his home and 23 he situated it in his driveway. 24 I went back to the beach and that's when I 25 drove up Isobel's driveway and I left my car up there.
2131 So that would have been like later on in the afternoon; 2 before supper, I believe. 3 At times -- I mean, you know, I wasn't 4 really looking much at clocks as to what times things 5 were going on. But my car ended up -- up in her driveway 6 and I left it there. 7 Q: All right. And you see, I take from 8 that, that you were, you know, preparing to leave; and 9 that's fair, I think, is it? 10 A: I think there were -- I was getting 11 ready, if I needed to leave. Let's put it that way. 12 Q: And can you tell us why you didn't 13 just leave at that moment? 14 A: That's probably a very good question. 15 I did have the dog and he was a very upset dog. The dog 16 did not travel in a car. I did not feel comfortable 17 taking the dog home in the car. He was accustomed to 18 travelling up in the back of a pick-up truck with a cap 19 on the back and I mean, in the end, the dog did have to 20 go home with me in the back -- 21 Q: Okay. And we'll come to that. 22 A: -- of the car. Yes. So -- so it 23 was, yes. 24 Q: Okay. And during the course of time 25 that you're getting someone to assist you in moving the
2141 boat and parking your vehicle at your sister-in-law's 2 place, did anybody assist you in any of this? 3 A: I took it upon myself to do it. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: This would have all been completed 8 around supper time, I think you indicated? 9 A: Yes. And what's the next thing that 10 you recall, Mrs. Hannahson? 11 A: The next thing I recall... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I was getting my grandson ready for 16 bed and I recall being in the downstairs bathroom and I 17 heard a commotion. So it had to be around eightish, and 18 I heard a loud commotion. And I kind of opened the 19 window and it was very loud and I just shut the window 20 and continued getting him ready for bed and reading him a 21 story and I didn't go and investigate any further. 22 And out the bathroom window, I look into a 23 sand hill. I can't see anything. 24 Q: And you can't tell us what this 25 commotion was that you heard around that hour, then?
2151 A: At the time I didn't know what it 2 was. 3 Q: Just continue, if you would, please. 4 What happens next? 5 A: So, the house would be all closed up. 6 You know, the blinds would be pulled and the doors would 7 be locked and then I would just turn the TV on. And I 8 was watching the news and, you know, you'd be kind of 9 going and looking out the window when you would think you 10 had heard something. 11 And then I heard an extremely loud, again, 12 very loud commotion going on. I was down in the living 13 room and I ran upstairs to the top bedroom and I looked 14 out the window and I saw the police in a formation going 15 across my driveway. 16 They were on the road. They were on East 17 Ipperwash crossing at the end of my driveway in 18 formation, and there was a lot of shouting and yelling 19 and everything and next they come back into my view again 20 and they were backing up down the road. 21 Q: Okay. And when you say, "police in 22 formation" can you describe that any further for us? Can 23 you tell us what they were wearing? Can you tell us what 24 the lighting conditions were? 25 A: The lighting conditions; there are no
2161 lights on that corner. I had a light on in the back 2 porch which is underneath the roof, which casts very 3 little light at all. 4 The light at the top by the window 5 upstairs, was an old light again, that had a cap over the 6 top of it and the light kind of directed straight down. 7 So, there wasn't a lot of light, beyond, 8 you know, three (3) feet out from the house, if that. 9 And I could make out that my mind said 10 that they had shields in front of them and that they were 11 kind of shuffling in a formation, very tight knit 12 formation. 13 Q: Could you hear them saying anything 14 as they were -- 15 A: There was just -- 16 Q: -- travelling in this -- 17 A: -- a lot of shouting and I might have 18 heard a loud -- like a -- some kind of a command which 19 wouldn't be in words. You know, I can't recall that it 20 was; just a -- just a sound, you know, a loud sound. 21 Q: You could hear other people -- 22 A: I could hear -- I could hear other 23 voices coming from the Park, other yelling coming from 24 the Park. 25 Q: And do you recall, or could you make
2171 out what you could hear in terms of yelling -- 2 A: No, I couldn't make out words. 3 Q: All right. Other than these words 4 and yelling coming from the Park, what else is going on 5 in the Park, if you can recall for us? 6 A: The school bus was over there and 7 cars and a lot of people. 8 Q: When you say, "a lot of people," do 9 you have a number? 10 A: There was a crowd, you know, there 11 was a crowd. I'm not very good at looking at a group of 12 people and saying how many there were but -- 13 Q: More than there are lawyers in this 14 room? 15 A: Yeah, more than there are people in 16 this room, definitely. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Definitely. 19 Q: How about fires or any such -- any 20 other lighting? 21 A: Yes, there were fires, there were 22 fires lit. 23 Q: Do you know how many fires, could you 24 see them from your -- from your cottage? 25 A: No, I don't, more than one (1). They
2181 were in different spots, like bonfires, some larger than 2 others. 3 Q: You talked about vehicles being 4 there, can you tell us whether these vehicles were 5 running, whether their lights were on or off? 6 A: Don't recall the vehicles running, no 7 I don't -- I don't recall seeing -- seeing lights of 8 vehicles. 9 Q: Can you describe for us the nature 10 and type of vehicle? You've already mentioned there was 11 a school bus, do you recall -- 12 A: A large school bus. 13 Q: Do you recall anything else? 14 A: A tandem dump truck. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And I knew it was a white car because 17 I had seen it in the daytime. It had the fins on it and 18 something written on the side, OPP something. I don't 19 know what else was written. 20 Q: All right. You've told us earlier 21 that there was certainly a blind spot or some areas that 22 were obscured from your vision. 23 A: It depended on what window I was in, 24 whether I was looking out the top of the window or the 25 bottom of the window and --
2191 Q: What do you mean by that? Perhaps 2 you can just tell us what you mean by top of the window 3 or bottom of the window? 4 A: The windows in this house are 5 casement windows and the curtain on the window was -- had 6 a rod at the top and the bottom of the curtain. So the 7 curtain was flat against the window. If I opened the 8 casement window, they would open towards you and they 9 would fold right back against the wall. 10 So if I had opened the window I would -- 11 if I stood up, the window would -- my whole body would be 12 in the window, you know, down to about above my knee sort 13 of thing. So I never totally opened the window when I 14 would run upstairs to see what all the commotion was 15 about. 16 So I would kind of just pull the curtain 17 back and kind of look out the crack. I'd have to pull it 18 back on a little rod, there was little flat rods that the 19 curtain was fed onto. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Now you indicate that you go up to 23 your window, this is from the top floor? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if we can just look at the
2201 diagram at Tab 9, I think we've marked that again and 2 sorry, Mr. Registrar I don't have that number, but the 3 diagram that's -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: 1761. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: -- at Tab 9, do you see that? 8 A: Yes I do. 9 Q: And which window was it that you were 10 looking out when you see the police officers going by in 11 the formation that you've described? 12 A: The window on the east side of the 13 house -- 14 Q: That would be the top of the page? 15 A: But the -- at the south, I was 16 looking out the south window. 17 Q: All right. And was this one (1) of 18 the times that you would have just, as you put it earlier 19 I think, peeked through the window -- 20 A: Yes -- 21 Q: -- or did -- 22 A: -- exactly. 23 Q: -- you open the window up? 24 A: Exactly. 25 Q: All right. Can you tell what the
2211 Officers, that you've described as going in formation, in 2 tight formation past your line of vision, what -- other 3 than the shields that you've described, can you tell us 4 anything more about what they were wearing? 5 A: I just thought of it as riot gear. 6 You know that's what came into my mind. That's what I 7 thought that they would dress like in riot gear. 8 Q: Did you notice that they had helmets 9 on, for example, visors, anything like that? 10 A: Well, no, just the whole silhouette 11 told me they were in riot gear, which I mean I can't even 12 tell you what a full riot gear consists of, but you know 13 that's just... 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. We've heard something in 17 these -- in this Inquiry about shield chatter in and 18 around that time. First of all, do you know what that 19 is? 20 A: No, I do not. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Like that may have been the sounds 23 that I was hearing other than the yelling, there was 24 something that I heard. Maybe that's what you refer to 25 as chatter. Is it just like a 'heh heh' or 'hurray' --
2221 or something? 2 Q: That's all right. But in any event 3 they go by your line of vision? 4 A: They do. 5 Q: You hear a commotion and again I 6 don't want to put words in your mouth. 7 A: I -- I just -- I just hear the 8 continued yelling. 9 Q: And this is -- 10 A: -- you know, just noise, all kinds of 11 noise. 12 Q: This is outside -- 13 A: I -- I just hear -- I can hear the 14 noise. 15 Q: And this is outside of your field of 16 vision? 17 A: Yes. Yes. Once they -- yes. 18 Q: And do you know how long this noise, 19 this continuation I think as you put it, how long did 20 that go on before they came back into your field of 21 vision? 22 A: It certainly -- it just was as if 23 they disappeared out of my field of vision, and -- and I 24 recall that I could kind of see them fanning out a little 25 bit. But I would only see it -- I would only see them
2231 fanning almost like I saw them fanning out but I -- only 2 for a short period of time. 3 And then -- they disappeared and they were 4 right back in my vision again. 5 Q: Okay. Again, is it your -- is it 6 your recollection that you couldn't hear or you didn't -- 7 you don't recall now, the words that were being -- 8 A: I -- I could make out no words. 9 Q: Tell me what happens next, Ms. 10 Hannahson? 11 A: As they were backing up across the 12 driveway, I heard the school bus start up. And I could 13 hear it starting -- I knew it was moving. That, you 14 know, it was coming -- moving. 15 And then I think I heard a lot of noise 16 and the police officers went out of my sight and then the 17 school bus came into my sight. 18 Q: Just before we -- we -- before I ask 19 you to carry on, there's a document at Tab Number 5. I 20 can tell you it's also repeated at Tab Number 7. But for 21 our purposes I'll ask you to look at the document at Tab 22 5, it's Inquiry Document 1001969. 23 Commissioner, I'm not sure whether this 24 has been marked as an exhibit or not but for the purposes 25 of this witness' testimony, I want to refer her to the
2241 last paragraph at the bottom of the page and the next -- 2 it continues at the top of the next page and the 3 paragraph following that. Okay? 4 A: Yes, I have it. 5 Q: And it goes on to describe that you 6 own a cottage which butts Ipperwash Provincial Park. 7 "She was present on the evening of 8 September 6th, 1995. She recalls 9 hearing a commotion at approximately 10 22:30 to 23:00 hours." 11 That's 10:30 to eleven o'clock in the p.m. 12 Is that consistent with your recall, Ms. 13 Hannahson? 14 A: I hadn't looked at the time but I had 15 the televison on at the time and I knew it was before the 16 news. The news hadn't come on. And so, you know, I just 17 -- approximately it had to be around 10:30. 18 Q: Thank you. It goes on to -- to read: 19 "She states that she observed police 20 officers in riot gear, advance through 21 her sight line and then out of her 22 sight line towards the Park. 23 She states that there was yelling and 24 screaming and then she saw officers 25 going through her sight line again away
2251 from the Park. 2 Hannahson states that she then heard 3 what she thought sounded like an order 4 whereupon she states the police charged 5 back through her sight line towards the 6 Park. 7 She states that the police once again 8 retreated back out past her laneway." 9 And it would seem to indicate that there 10 was at least two (2) occasions from this report that they 11 came into your sight line. 12 What do you say about that? 13 A: I saw them once. They went through 14 my sight line and they came back once. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I'm going to ask you to turn to the 19 document at Tab number 1, Ms. Hannahson, and at page 11 20 of that document. First of all I'll ask you just -- 21 let's just look at the first page. 22 It's Inquiry document 1000322. You'll see 23 it's titled, Audio/Video statement of Fran Hannahson. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it would appear that you were
2261 interviewed by Detective Constable Clelland and Detective 2 Constable Harris on the 7th of September 1995, commencing 3 at 8:46 in the morning? 4 A: Yes, I was. 5 Q: And do you recall giving this 6 statement? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: You've had a chance to read this 9 before coming here today? 10 A: I have. 11 Q: And did it assist you in terms of, 12 first of all, recalling giving this statement and in 13 terms of refreshing your memory as to the events, as 14 you've described them here? 15 A: There were certainly things that I, 16 let's say, had forgotten. 17 Q: All right. And in reading that, did 18 that refresh your memory? 19 A: When I read the statement, I feel 20 there were times that I was repeating myself; so I said 21 something and then I went and I repeated it. 22 Q: All right. And we'll come to the 23 circumstances -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- of your giving this statement.
2271 A: Okay. 2 Q: But -- but that is your statement? 3 A: That is my statement and I stand by 4 whatever's on those sheets. 5 Q: All right. Perhaps we can mark that, 6 then, as the next exhibit, Mr. Registrar? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1766, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1766: Document Number 000322. 10 Transcript of Audio/video 11 statement of Fran Hannahson, 12 September 07, 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: If I can ask you then to turn to page 16 11 of that. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Page 11? 21 Q: Right. It's also marked at 704 in -- 22 A: 704 -- 23 Q: -- in some dark handwriting. 24 A: Okay. Okay. 25
2281 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Are you there? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Do you see where it says: 7 "HANNAHSON: And they were in 8 procession, like all together, and, um, 9 they yelled, or did they? 10 They started to come forward and then 11 they yelled and they charged. Okay, so 12 now I'm -- I don't see them. 13 I don't see them but in a very few 14 minutes they're backing up into my 15 vision again. I did not see them go 16 into the Park area itself, okay? 17 They would not have had enough time to 18 do that. I don't believe they would 19 have had enough time because I'm seeing 20 them and they're coming forward and 21 then they show some command, I don't 22 know what it was, just like, oh, like, 23 whatever. I don't know. 24 And then they went in and there was a 25 bunch of shouting and hollering and a
2291 lot of noise and, um, it could have 2 been baseball bats, it could have been 3 rocks, it could have been whatever, I 4 don't know. 5 But, I mean, there was a whole lot of 6 racket and noise and then they started 7 to back off again." 8 A: Yes. I -- I've read that with you. 9 Q: All right. And that's what you've 10 just described to us in terms of this -- this event. 11 A: I think I repeated myself twice 12 there. I think I said what I saw and then I went and I 13 said it again. 14 Q: All right. And if you turn over to 15 the next page, that is page 12. It's marked 705 in 16 handwriting. And you say: 17 "They were retreating. They come back 18 into my vision again. I see the 19 officers and they start to move down 20 the road and then they disappear out of 21 my vision, the officers do. 22 They're further down the road where I 23 can't see them and they are backing up 24 in a group. They're backing up. Then 25 the school bus starts up."
2301 A: Hmm hmm. See, I believe -- if I shut 2 my eyes, all I can see is that happening once, and I 3 think I'm repeating myself. I think I'm repeating the 4 one (1) time over again. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. I'm going to -- just 9 before we move on, Mrs. Hannahson, the statement at the - 10 - the very front contains some personal information and 11 we'd simply ask, Mr. Registrar, that that be properly 12 redacted. 13 It's certainly redacted on my copy, Mr. 14 Commissioner, but just so that our record's clear on 15 that. Thank you. 16 And do I take it from that, as well as 17 your own recollection of those events, Mrs. Hannahson, 18 you didn't actually see the -- the clash or the contact 19 as between the police officers -- 20 21 A: No, I did not. I would just hear the 22 noises. 23 Q: Okay. And we ended up there where 24 the -- where you then hear the bus starting up. And -- 25 A: Yes.
2311 Q: -- perhaps you can just continue and 2 tell us, if you would, please, what happens from there? 3 A: I -- I hear the bus starting up and 4 the bus comes through and I hear something being pushed 5 or bumped or -- like there's a loud noise, like metal to 6 metal, sort of thing. 7 And when the bus gets into my sight, it 8 hasn't moved that great a distance, that it's still 9 struggling to get going. And so it's moving fairly 10 slowly but beginning to pick up a little speed. 11 I can see figures running down the right- 12 hand side of the bus, which is the door side of the bus. 13 And as the bus starts to -- the part of the bus starts to 14 disappear beyond my sight, I can see figures running 15 along the opposite side of the bus, trying to catch up to 16 the other side of the bus. 17 Do you want me to continue? 18 Q: Yes, please. 19 A: And before the full bus is out of my 20 view, there is a car that comes across in my view 21 travelling very, very quickly. He's like a streak, just 22 goes across and he is travelling much faster than the bus 23 is and he's driving -- like he's going to be passing the 24 bus on the right-hand side because he's -- which would 25 put him part on the road and part on the side of the
2321 road. 2 Q: All right. And what are you thinking 3 when this is going on? 4 A: I'm thinking that if the Officers 5 that are on that road don't jump out of the way, that 6 they're going to get hit by, possibly the car, maybe the 7 bus. And I know they have no where to go except over a 8 fence on the left-hand side of the road and jump into a 9 ditch, into a grove of trees on the right-hand side of 10 the road. 11 Q: If I can ask you just to turn to the 12 document again at Tab 1, that we've marked as your 13 Exhibit P-1766 -- pardon me, as your statement, and 14 Exhibit P-1766, at page 15, or 708 in handwriting. 15 A: Okay, 708. 16 Q: Are you with me on that? 17 A: Got it. 18 Q: It says, 19 "HANNAHSON: Well it was a light 20 coloured car but I don't recall the 21 writing, okay. I don't recall seeing 22 the writing and I know there's a white 23 car with the things in there, with the 24 OPP something -- oh or ah or whatever 25 it's got on it. I don't recall seeing
2331 that writing, but it just, like, flew 2 by, because at this point, when I'm 3 seeing this all happening, I thought oh 4 my God, those guys are in big trouble 5 because this damn school bus is coming 6 down on top of them. And I know 7 there's a fence all along the road 8 there and they're like going to have to 9 scatter right with this damn bus come 10 roaring and it was coming." 11 And you're asked by Officer Clelland: 12 "Any idea approximately how fast it 13 might have been going? 14 HANNAHSON: Well it wouldn't have 15 gotten past me -- really all that much 16 speed because it was parked, um, it was 17 parked like halfway between the store, 18 kind of thing, it couldn't have been 19 going very fast past me." 20 And I'll -- maybe I'll just stop there, 21 but that's consistent with what you've told us? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And I note that at page 24 24, when you're asked again several more questions, 25 you'll also find that it's marked as 717 at the top in
2341 handwriting, if you go down just to the second last 2 answer that you give on the page there: 3 "HANNAHSON: Just, like, I could see 4 the full school bus, at one (1) point I 5 saw the whole bus. It certainly wasn't 6 travelling very fast. The car was 7 travelling faster, like it went by, it 8 seemed, quicker." 9 And again, that's consistent with what 10 you've told us. 11 A: It went by a lot quicker because it 12 caught up and was passing the bus as the bus was going 13 out of my sight. I could see the car had caught up to 14 the bus and was actually passing it. 15 Q: And if you can just go back to your 16 page 15, at 708. 17 A: 708. 18 Q: Again, we'll just continue on in the 19 very last answer you've provided there, just from where I 20 left off between the store, kind of thing. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And it reads: 23 "It couldn't have been going very fast 24 past me but I could hear that it was, 25 you know, getting going. And the car,
2351 it kind of went and I don't know 2 whether it passed the bus or not. Not 3 in my sight did it pass the bus. So I 4 knew there was a OPP boat out on the 5 water and I had a flashlight in my 6 hand." 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: When I said, "pass the bus," I meant 10 totally pass it. 11 Q: Okay. So you couldn't see whether or 12 not the car that you've described is travelling faster 13 past the school bus that went by? 14 A: I just knew that if that car 15 continued at the speed it was going, it would be ahead of 16 the school bus very quickly. 17 Q: And when you talk about the 18 flashlight in your hand, what happens from there? 19 A: When the bus and the car disappear 20 out of my sight, now I can see nothing on the road and 21 you just feel a little bit of panic, you know, like this 22 shouldn't be happening, so I turn in the room and go to 23 the opposite window across from the window that I was in 24 and I had a flashlight in my hand and I just flashed the 25 light out into the water.
2361 Whether that makes sense or not, but 2 that's what I did. Then I stepped quickly out of the 3 window, took two (2) steps, I'd be in the hall, one (1) 4 step and I was in my grandson's room, is when I started 5 hearing the shots being fired -- 6 Q: Okay. Who -- 7 A: -- gunshot. And one (1) step I -- I 8 just stood up in the corner which was -- he was on the 9 top of a bunk and I was at the end of the bunk bed. It's 10 a very small room and I just stood in the corner and just 11 stood there, shocked at what I was hearing. 12 Q: Let me ask you to turn, then, to the 13 document or the diagram at Tab Number 9, Exhibit P-1761. 14 A: Number 9? 15 Q: Tab Number 9. 16 A: Okay, got it. 17 Q: And I'll bring you back to your 18 statement in a moment, okay? 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: But the diagram you've described for 21 us, there is a -- what's marked as a bedroom at the top 22 of the page which would be on the east side. That is the 23 bedroom from which you were initially observing? 24 A: Yes. I went from the south window, 25 across the room to the north window.
2371 Q: Okay. And then when you say you went 2 back to your grandson's bedroom, that would be the -- the 3 bedroom that is not adjacent to the bedroom -- 4 A: I went from the north window, stepped 5 into the hall, went through a door into the first bedroom 6 on the south. 7 Q: All right. And that's where you 8 stayed when you say you heard gunshots. 9 A: And I stayed in that room, yes. 10 Q: Tell us about the gunshots, please. 11 A: I just heard a lot of gunshots. Just 12 guns being fired. 13 Q: All right. Are you familiar with the 14 sound of gunfire, Ms. Hannahson? 15 A: Not at all. 16 Q: All right. And can you tell us how 17 many shots you might have heard? 18 A: In my estimation there -- there were 19 a lot, but to try to tell you numbers, you know, it would 20 be hard for me to say whether there was thirty (30), 21 thirty-five (35), forty (40), you know, they're -- 22 they're just -- I just remember that's a -- you know, 23 when are they going to stop firing. 24 Q: Do you know how long this would have 25 taken, with the gunshots that you heard?
2381 A: No, I don't. I -- I don't. 2 Q: Were you looking out the window from 3 your grandson's bedroom when you heard the gunfire? 4 A: No. The bunk beds, they would be 5 obstructing my view from the window that's in that room. 6 I was not looking out the window. I stayed as far away 7 from the window as I could. 8 Q: We were told that beyond -- and 9 that's probably why -- we were told that beyond the 10 report, that is the sound of gunfire, that it might be 11 accompanied by what's been described as a muzzle flash. 12 I take it you wouldn't have seen anything 13 like that. 14 A: I saw no light at all, no, because I 15 was not looking out the window at the time. I think I 16 was standing just with my hand on my grandson's head 17 because he -- his was at the -- at the top of the bunk 18 and I was standing at the top of the bunk and I just had 19 my hand on his head, wondering should I be pulling him 20 off this bed or what should I do. 21 Q: And after hearing the shots, what 22 happens? 23 A: Everything became very quiet and I 24 just stood there for a few minutes. And then I went back 25 into the room. I mean I have no idea whether I stood
2391 there for three (3) minutes, five (5) minutes, four (4) 2 minutes; time stands still when you're in situations like 3 that. 4 Q: And when you say you went back to the 5 room, are you talking about the bedroom -- 6 A: Back into the other bedroom. 7 Q: And that's the bedroom on the east 8 side? 9 A: That's the bedroom -- yes, it runs 10 north to south and it's on the east side of the house. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And I looked out the -- the window 13 again. 14 Q: That would be the south window? 15 A: The south window. 16 Q: All right. And what do you see? 17 A: I just see a bit of yellow, which 18 tells me that the bus is back in the Park or certainly 19 has already gone through my sight. I did not see it on 20 the road. I just saw yellow, so I knew it was the end of 21 the bus or the front of bus. Whether it was backing up 22 or -- I -- I'm imagining it would back up, it could never 23 turn around. 24 So -- but I'm just seeing yellow kind of, 25 through the trees, and I know that the bus is -- is back
2401 on that sandy lot or further. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: The bus is -- is gone back. 4 Q: Just carry on. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I -- looking out the window and 9 seeing people just standing there, they're just standing 10 there. And then there's a large group of them that start 11 to turn and they start to walk away from the gravel 12 parking lot and they're going up on to the this grassy 13 knoll which is behind the store and walking towards the 14 kiosk where you would sign in if you were a camper, to -- 15 you know, that you would sign in. Like, I can see -- I 16 could see that. 17 And -- and foremost, in the front, there 18 are still a few people that are kind of standing there. 19 And then there is one (1) gentleman that 20 is screaming. He's starting to scream and he's saying, 21 Come back, come back. And he's saying, You're cowards, 22 come back. And then he said something about killing, 23 like, I'll kill you. 24 And then he said, They've killed two (2) 25 of ours, I think it was two (2) of ours, and for every
2411 one (1) they kill of ours, we'll kill a hundred (100) of 2 theirs. 3 And there was this racket. Somebody was 4 hitting something against what I was thinking was 5 probably the dumpster, because it sounded like metal. It 6 could have been a board, could have been a bat but there 7 -- you know, it was just, bang, bang, bang. And he was 8 just yelling, he was beside himself. 9 And these people were just walking away. 10 But there were still -- there were a few that were 11 standing still and didn't leave. 12 But the majority of them were leaving. 13 Q: Okay. This person that's -- that's 14 doing the screaming, and I think you used the word 15 "coward," calling somebody a coward, do you know who that 16 was directed at? 17 A: I believe it was direct -- directed 18 at the people that were -- it was directed at the people 19 that were on the Park, in the Park. 20 Q: Okay. And why do you say that? 21 Could you see this individual? 22 A: I could not see this individual, no. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: I could not. 25
2421 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: But there was only one (1) voice that 4 I heard. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: One (1) person doing the yelling? 9 A: One (1) person doing the yelling. 10 Q: And what were you thinking at that 11 point in time, Mrs. Hannahson? 12 A: When I heard him say that you've 13 killed, or one of ours has been killed, I just thought, 14 oh, no. I mean, this is just so sad, how can this 15 happen. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: You know, and it was just, that's 18 terrible. I thought, I've got to get out of here. 19 Q: All right. The people that were -- 20 that you've described as walking away from -- I take it 21 from the fence line inside the Park? 22 A: Well, they were standing back behind 23 the fence line, like they were kind of opposite the 24 store, the front of the store. 25 Like, there was the store and then at the
2431 end of the store there was a laundromat. Well they were 2 kind of on the -- on the roadway, about there, when I 3 saw them. And they just turned and you could tell that 4 they were just bewildered. 5 I mean, they were just walking with their 6 heads down and they didn't look back. They just kept 7 walking. 8 Q: All right. Could you tell how many 9 of them there were, whether they were male, female? 10 A: I can't say I really assessed male, 11 female. It was just a group of people. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: What happens at that point? 16 A: The yelling continues and the noise 17 with hitting the dumpster with a stick or bat or 18 whatever, and the people -- it continued until things 19 then kind of settled down and things got very quiet. 20 And there were a few people kind of 21 milling around and walking back and forth. And then I 22 saw a car driving very slowly back across my sight at the 23 end of the driveway -- 24 Q: Okay. Might you just -- 25 A: -- very slowly.
2441 Q: Would you just take the laser pointed 2 again, please, and just indicate what you're describing 3 to us. Perhaps you might use the hand held microphone as 4 well, please. 5 A: I saw this car just coming right 6 across here, driving very, very slowly. And there was a 7 couple of people running along with it, like behind it -- 8 Q: Okay -- 9 A: -- catching up to it. But it was 10 driving very slowly and very quietly. 11 Q: Did it have its lights on? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Could you make out the car? Had you 14 seen this car before? You're nodding your head no or...? 15 A: I don't know that, you know, I 16 associated it with the car that I had seen before, no. 17 Q: So this car travels very slowly, 18 you've just indicated? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: From inside the Park? Could you see 21 whether or not it came from inside the Park? 22 A: No, I cannot. 23 Q: Okay. But in any event, you see it 24 coming from that direction? 25 A: I see it coming just across the
2451 driveway -- the end of the driveway on the road, going 2 this way. 3 Q: And where does it go? 4 A: It seems to stop around -- I guess 5 I'm not so sure I know where the car stops, but I see 6 lights down in this bush that's right here, on -- 7 Q: I'm going to ask you to -- 8 A: -- this property. I 9 Q: I'm going to ask you to put a -- 10 A: -- can see lights. 11 Q: I'm sorry Ms. Hannahson, I'm going to 12 ask you to put a number seven (7) right there -- 13 A: Number seven (7). 14 Q: -- where you see the lights. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Carry on and tell us what it is that 19 you seen? 20 A: At first I'm thinking it's car lights 21 but soon realize it isn't because it's not two (2) beams 22 of light, it just seems to be more like a flashlight, 23 type of thing -- flashlight, type of thing, right? 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Okay.
2461 Q: And can you see any of the -- who 2 might be operating this flashlight? 3 A: No, I can't. No, I can't. 4 Q: Can you hear any voices and talking? 5 A: No, I don't. Everything is very, 6 very quiet. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Very quiet. 9 Q: And then what happens? 10 A: I just see these lights in that area, 11 I have no idea what they're doing. 12 Q: Right. Continue. How long did this 13 go on? 14 A: They were down in that are for quite 15 a while. 16 Q: And what does that mean, quite 17 awhile? 18 A: Well, because if I looked -- you 19 know, looked to my -- what would I be, I'd be looking to 20 my left, I'd still see the lights. And then I'd look 21 back over to the Park and I could hear cars coming. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And then I would see lights of cars, 24 they would be coming across the bridge, and as they 25 approached the lot, the lights would show people moving
2471 around. I could see people in the headlights of the car 2 and then somebody yelled, Cut the lights. 3 And kind of one (1) by one (1), cars kept 4 coming in to the parking lot, and when they got to a 5 certain point, they turned their lights out. 6 Q: All right. Carry on, what happens 7 after that, Mrs. Hannahson? 8 A: You know, I have a feeling that 9 something is going on over there, of course I really 10 don't know what. I hear a dump truck moving. I can hear 11 it thumping as they do when you're driving the things. 12 They make kind of a noise. 13 I hear glass breaking. I hear something 14 that sounds similar to if you were maybe chopping 15 something like wood or something like that. And there's 16 just an awful lot of movement going around over there. 17 Q: All right. What do you recall next? 18 A: This went on for a long time. Like I 19 -- I think like I listened and -- and I knew that people 20 were moving around and they were doing something. I 21 really wasn't sure what. 22 When I heard the glass I figured they have 23 to be around the store, you know, in order to hear glass 24 breaking. And at times I left the window. I didn't, you 25 know, I would leave the window and go back into Zachary's
2481 room or -- and I decided that I needed to start pulling 2 our clothes together and get ready so that I could get in 3 my car and leave as soon as the sun came up, as soon as I 4 could get out of there. I knew I had to leave. 5 Q: Given what had happened? 6 A: Given what had happened. Exactly. 7 Q: All right. Did you get any sleep at 8 all, Ms. Hannahson? 9 A: Not much. There was one point that I 10 did go and lay down in the bottom bunk in the room that 11 my grandson was in. It was still dark at that time 12 outside. 13 Q: All right. You did fall asleep? 14 A: I did fall asleep. 15 Q: And when you woke up what -- what was 16 happening? 17 A: A noise woke me up. And when I 18 opened my eyes the room was red. So I jumped up, ran 19 into the room. I opened the windows wide up and the 20 front yard was red. And there were flames, like the 21 store was engulfed in flames. Totally. And so was the 22 building that you would sign in, it was also on fire. 23 Q: The kiosk. 24 A: The kiosk was also on fire. And 25 there was not a soul. The parking lot was lit up like
2491 daytime. The light from the fire and it was a very eery 2 feeling because there wasn't a soul. You know, it was 3 just eery. 4 Q: Okay. And what did you do? 5 A: I just stood there. I just stood 6 there and thought -- I just stood there. I went, you 7 know, like what could I do? I could do nothing, I didn't 8 have a telephone even to talk to anybody. 9 And nobody could get in touch with me as 10 long, you know, if I was in that house because I didn't 11 have a phone. 12 Q: Okay. Did somebody eventually get in 13 touch with you? 14 A: Yes. I continued to just take things 15 downstairs and -- and just get -- and I left everything 16 at the back door. I had everything ready. I had my 17 grandson's clothes out, my clothes out, I had everything 18 ready. That is -- you know, as soon as we could get 19 dressed we were gone as soon as, you know, it was -- as 20 soon as I felt that I could leave. 21 I had gone down to the bedroom that I 22 sleep in and I had laid down on the bed and then I heard 23 a voice calling me, Fran, Fran and it was my sister-in- 24 law, Isobel. 25 And she had come out onto her porch and I
2501 just looked out the window and said what. And she said 2 that the police are coming in for us, get ready. And I 3 said how much time do I have and she said ten (10) 4 minutes at the most. 5 And I said I don't even know where the dog 6 is and she said the dog is under my porch and so I left 7 the window, went down the hall, woke my grandson up. I 8 got dressed first, woke my grandson up, I said, we're 9 going on an excursion here, you know. 10 And threw his clothes on, took him 11 downstairs and hardly had time -- I didn't even get his 12 shoes on and the police were knocking at the front door. 13 Q: And when you say front door, I think 14 you've told us already that's on the lake side? 15 A: The beach. Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: North -- north side of the house. So 18 I opened the door and they told me I could only take what 19 I could carry. So I asked the officer if he would put 20 Zachary's shoes on, which he did, and I grabbed a 21 suitcase. 22 I had two (2) suitcases and then he took 23 one (1) from me and so we went outside. I shut the door. 24 We went up the side of the -- the house and kind of up 25 the hill.
2511 My sister-in-law was waiting for us. She 2 must have been standing inside her back door, because 3 when she saw the tops of our heads, like when I looked 4 up, she had shut her back door, went across her back 5 yard, like the back of the house and got in her car. 6 And the officers got Zachary in the car, the dog got in 7 the back, the dog was not letting me go anywhere without 8 him. 9 He -- he followed us. Like, as soon as we 10 passed, the dog was right pushing against me, you know, 11 trying to get in the car first. 12 And we got in the car and drove down East 13 Parkway and out -- Ipperwash Road and there was -- we 14 were stopped at Ravenswood at the highway. 15 Q: Stop -- stopped by whom? 16 A: By officers. There was a roadblock 17 there and they were stopping everybody -- I'm assuming 18 everybody. Anyway, they stopped me. Isobel was quite a 19 bit ahead of me. She -- she had got ahead -- 20 Q: She had gone through? 21 A: She had already gone through. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: And I told the officer who I was, 24 where I lived and that I had seen some of -- of what had 25 happened and he said well, you know, are you willing to
2521 give a statement and I said yes. 2 And so he said, well, go and park over in 3 the parking lot there at the corner and someone will be 4 over to speak to me, and I waited and I think there were 5 a couple of different officers came up and then there was 6 an officer that came and asked me if I would follow them. 7 There were two (2) officers in the car, if 8 I would follow them. They were going to take me into 9 Petrolia and so that's what I did. 10 Q: And the statement that we find at Tab 11 1 that we've referred to -- 12 A: That's the statement. 13 Q: That is the statement? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Where was the dog and -- 16 and your grandson at that point, when you're giving a 17 statement? 18 A: Well, when I arrived at the police 19 station, I said to the officer, what am I going to do 20 with the dog and he said, well, just bring it into the 21 police station with you, which made me very 22 uncomfortable, because I really didn't know what the dog 23 was going to do. 24 And so the dog came in with us and I've 25 never, ever given a statement before, but when I was
2531 taken into this room, I said -- the officer said I would 2 have to leave my grandson and I said, well, I don't feel 3 comfortable doing that. 4 I want him in the room with me and I was 5 told that he couldn't come in the room with me. So I 6 told Zachary to sit on the floor outside the door of the 7 room that I was in, the dog laid on the floor beside him 8 and that's where he stayed until I had finished my 9 statement and the door was open and there was a 10 secretary, I think, just coming into work and she was 11 going to keep an eye on him. 12 Q: All right. And you'll see that on 13 the front page of your statement, Mrs. Hannahson, it says 14 the interview was concluded at 9:33 in the morning. 15 Is that -- 16 A: I saw that. 17 Q: Does that accord with your 18 recollection? 19 A: I really wasn't paying much time -- 20 much attention to time but I do remember him saying a 21 time when he started and saying a time when he -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- finished. I do remember him 24 saying that. 25 Q: And following this, I take it, you
2541 would have went back to your home in St. Catharines? 2 A: I followed the officers back into 3 Forest, because I knew that my sister-in-law would be 4 wondering what happened to me and where I went. 5 So I wanted to touch base with her at the 6 Legion, before I left to drive home. So that's what I 7 did. I went back to the Legion. There were very few 8 people there by the time I got back. And Isobel was 9 waiting for me, 'cause she did wonder -- she had surmised 10 that I had gone in to give a -- she had surmised that I 11 had done exactly what I did do. 12 She put two (2) and two (2) together and 13 figured that's where I was. 14 So after that, then I got in the car and 15 drove home. 16 Q: All right. And just before we move 17 on to -- to the events following that, and I'll -- and 18 we'll finish up here very shortly. 19 But at any point in time from September 20 the 4th to the 6th, did you have any conversations of any 21 sort with any of the people inside the Park, any of the-- 22 A: I did not. 23 Q: Did you have any concern that your 24 cottage would be overrun or occupied by -- by them? 25 A: I really never gave that a thought.
2551 Q: Okay. Did you observe, aside from 2 the weapons that you observed the police officers with as 3 they travelled across your -- your parking lot, did you 4 see any other firearms, in particularly any firearms with 5 the people in the Park? 6 A: I did not. 7 Q: You returned back to your cottage at 8 some point, Mrs. Hannahson together with your husband and 9 you found that there were certain items in your house? 10 A: We returned the following Saturday 11 because we were going to go up to bring the boat home and 12 my husband decided that maybe he would just go up to the 13 corner of -- at the driveway and would go in and maybe we 14 could get the personal things that I had to have left 15 behind, right? 16 Q: Right. 17 A: So when we approached the driveway at 18 the corner of our driveway you could see a bunker and 19 there were maybe four (4) or five (5) people in it. They 20 were dressed in -- like a combat gear -- like combat 21 outfit, not combat, camouflage with kerchiefs over their 22 faces. 23 We pulled up with the nose of the truck 24 heading up the driveway. We stopped, rolled down the 25 window and simply said, we own the cottage and we would
2561 like to go in and pick up our personal things, they 2 nodded their head, we drove up the driveway and went in 3 the house. 4 Q: And what did you find when you get 5 into the house? 6 A: We went into the house, we did 7 realize that there were things in the house that didn't 8 belong to us. 9 Q: What sort of things? 10 A: Upstairs I believe there was a radio 11 on the top bunk, like a boom box type of a radio and 12 there was a bag with clothing in it that was not mine, 13 because I had nothing -- you know that was not mine. 14 There was a couple of magazines in the 15 bathroom that weren't in there and a few other things 16 that right now I can't recall what they were, but things 17 that weren't mine. 18 And then there was a few items on the 19 table and I believe in the freezer there were bottles of 20 liquor and they didn't belong to us. So these things 21 that were in the house we knew weren't ours and somebody 22 had brought them in. 23 And the front door, out of the -- we have 24 two (2) doors that go out onto a porch on the north side 25 of the house that would -- is facing the water. The one
2571 (1) door had been kicked in or the jam was broken. So 2 that's how they had entered the house. 3 Q: Do you recall there being a weapon in 4 your house that didn't belong to you? 5 A: Not at that point in time. We hadn't 6 been in the house very long when I heard vehicles. And I 7 think that's probably the moment that I realize that I 8 was probably a little more frightened of what had taken 9 place because when I heard these car vehicles, I said to 10 my husband, they're coming. 11 And he didn't understand what I meant. 12 But, they were coming through the Park and when I looked 13 out the side window, there was a fence along there that 14 had been cut open and they were coming out that fence and 15 driving up -- let me see -- they come through the fence 16 about here and they were driving here and parking like 17 this. 18 Q: All right. And you're indicating a 19 location -- 20 A: Along that road -- along this sandy 21 parking lot that goes down to the beach. 22 Q: And you've indicated, Mrs. Hannahson, 23 an opening in the fence I think as you've described it, 24 adjacent to your cottage, would that be fair? 25 A: It would be pretty well opposite the
2581 cottage. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: Across this sandy parking lot, an 4 opening that I don't recall being there when I was up 5 there a few days before, like the fence had been cut 6 open. And I got very, very upset and I said, let's get 7 out of here, just let's get out of here. 8 Q: And so you did? 9 A: And so we went down -- ran downstairs 10 and because I had everything at the back door already and 11 I believe my husband had driven down the driveway and he 12 pulled in and backed the back of the truck, which was at 13 the back of the door. 14 So we just opened the door, picked 15 everything up, threw it in the back of the truck, shut 16 the door, we didn't lock it, we just shut the door, got 17 in the vehicle and left. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And then went to a pay phone and 20 phoned the OPP detachment I think it was the one (1) out 21 the highway that's by the Provincial Park, that one (1), 22 it -- would that be Grand Bend? 23 Q: Grand Bend Detachment. 24 A: Okay. Grand Bend Detachment and told 25 them there were articles in our house that didn't belong
2591 to us but we went in there without -- no one was with us 2 that particular Saturday. 3 Q: And I take it you came back on 4 another occasion and found further items did you? 5 A: We were notified and we were to meet 6 the police at the house the following Saturday. Also 7 Isobel was there as well. She was to meet them at her 8 house. 9 So when we got there we went in with a 10 couple of officers and they were both Native. I don't 11 know whether they were Native police from the reserve but 12 they were both native officers. They walked through the 13 house with us and made a note of the things that were in 14 the house and, like, they took them and then they left. 15 And it was after they left that I noticed 16 something under the edge of the cupboard. We have a -- a 17 cabinet that holds dishes and when I looked down it was a 18 gun and I don't know one (1) gun from another gun but it 19 ended up to be a pellet gun. 20 We didn't touch it. Robert went and made 21 another phone call. I believe possibly up to his 22 sister's and that time there was a Native officer came 23 and a Peacekeeper and they took the gun out but it was a 24 pellet gun. 25 Q: And you know the -- the identities of
2601 those people who took the pellet gun? 2 A: I don't know the name of the -- the 3 officers that came. I mean at the time we were probably 4 told but now today I have no idea who -- who they were. 5 Q: And you had indicated on a previous 6 conversation, Ms. Hannahson, the discovery of night 7 vision goggles or something like that? 8 A: Yes, I -- I think the night vision 9 goggles that were on the table were on the table a second 10 time we went in and I said, What are those and it was the 11 officer that said to me they are night vision goggles. 12 Q: I see. 13 A: And I'm not so sure they were sitting 14 there the first time we were in the house. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I think they were in the house the 17 second time. 18 Q: And what became of these items? 19 A: The two (2) officers that were native 20 police took everything out of the house the first time 21 they came, like the -- the time they came in that we were 22 told to meet them there. There was also an officer up at 23 Isobel's house as well because they had been in to her 24 house. 25 Q: After September the 6th, Ms.
2611 Hannahson, did you have any occasion to discuss the 2 events with your sister-in-law? 3 A: No, we both decided it would be a 4 good idea that I didn't tell her what I saw and she 5 wouldn't tell me what she saw so that in the future we 6 wouldn't be getting -- you know, it wouldn't in any way 7 influence what we thought we saw and what we were told, 8 sort of thing. 9 And having going -- having gone back to 10 St. Catharines I never read these articles because I mean 11 we don't get these papers so I had never even read these 12 articles. 13 Q: Okay. Just one (1) moment if I may. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And, Mrs. Hannahson, is there 18 anything else that you'd think's important that we ought 19 to know about that I haven't asked you about or you 20 haven't told us up to this point? 21 A: I can't think of anything. 22 Q: All right. Thank you. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I note 24 the -- the hour and I also know that there might be some 25 questions from My Friends of -- of this Witness and
2621 perhaps we can ask of the parties who wishes to -- who 2 wishes to cross-examine and perhaps if they could give us 3 an estimate of the time that they might take. 4 Now, I know that we have a different order 5 with respect to the various witnesses and I think that 6 Mr. Millar has posed an order here and I think that you 7 have a sheet? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 9 think the OPPA are first. Ms. Jones, well let's say -- 10 let's see who has questions. 11 Does anybody have questions? Please stand 12 up if you do. 13 Okay, Ms. Jones...? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Perhaps ten (10) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 17 minutes. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Ten (10) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Province -- 20 Ms. Clermont, I think -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Ms. Clermont, yes. 22 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Five (5) to ten 23 (10) minutes. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Five (5) to ten (10) 25 minutes.
2631 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Ross. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 5 Ross. 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Ten (10) to fifteen 7 (15) minutes. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Ten (10) to fifteen 9 (15). 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: Perhaps ten (10) 12 minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And finally, 14 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Perhaps two (2) 16 minutes. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: It's just under an 18 hour at the outside, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'd 20 like to finish but I'm not going to continue, so we'll do 21 it tomorrow. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I would appreciate 23 that. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We do have 25 tomorrow, so we'll do it tomorrow.
2641 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, and I'd 2 appreciate it if -- if the witness could continue 3 tomorrow as well. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume 5 you're able to return tomorrow? 6 THE WITNESS: I am. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Millar...? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, before we close, 10 I just wanted to apologize to you, Commissioner, and to 11 Mr. Roland who's not here, for being a little sharp with 12 Mr. Roland with respect to Exhibit P-1758. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sure Mr. 14 Roland will appreciate it. Thank you very much, Mr. 15 Millar. 16 Now, that's it for the day, then? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We are now 19 adjourning until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Nine o'clock. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we have 22 approximately one (1) hour of cross-examination and that 23 will be it for the day? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, then -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, we have
2651 some other items to deal with? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have some other 3 items. We'll be dealing with -- Mr. Worme's going to 4 deal with the Kenneth Deane matter and then we'll deal 5 with -- with Mrs. Jago. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But it's 7 still possible that we'll be finished by noon? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we'll have a -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll see. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- shorter than 11 regular day. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Shorter than 13 a regular day. That's fine. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 all very much. We'll see you tomorrow morning. 17 18 (WITNESS RETIRES) 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 21 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday June the 20th at 9:00 22 a.m. 23 24 --- Upon adjourning at 5:12 p.m. 25
2661 2 3 Certified Correct 4 5 6 7 8 9 ___________________________ 10 Carol Geehan 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25