1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 12th, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Amanda Rogers ) (np) Student-at-law 16 17 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 18 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 19 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 20 21 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 22 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 23 Colleen Johnson ) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) 17 Robyn Trask ) (np) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 STEVEN CHARLES LORCH, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 144 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 159 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 208 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 224 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer Gleitman 266 12 13 TRACY DOBBIN, Sworn 14 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 290 15 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 332 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 344 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 347 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1684 Document Number 2005557. Resume of 4 Steven Charles Lorch. 12 5 P-1685 Document Number 2005575. Handwritten 6 notebook entries of Steven Charles Lorch, 7 July 28 to August 04,1995, August 11-14, 8 1995. 26 9 P-1686 Document Number 2000839. Handwritten 10 Daily Activity Report, August 11, 1995. 43 11 P-1687 Document Number 2000845. Handwritten 12 Daily Activity Report, August 12-13, 13 1995. 48 14 P-1688 Document Number 2000851. Handwritten 15 Daily Activity Report, August 14, 1995. 52 16 P-1689 Document Number 2005424. Handwritten 17 notebook entries, September 04 to 06, 18 1995. 54 19 P-1690 Document Number 2003686. Typed Will 20 Say of Cst. Steven Lorch and handwritten 21 OPP interview report of Steven Lorch, 22 July 30 to August 02,1995 and handwritten 23 notebook entries of Steven Lorch, 24 September 06,1995. 72 25


1 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1691 Document Number 2000592. Transcript of 4 tape recorded message 911 call made by 5 Marcia Simon, September 06,1995. 130 6 P-1692 Document Number 1000359. Statement of Cst. 7 Marissen, September 07, 1995. 207 8 P-1693 Document Number 2005532. Resume of 9 Constable Tracy Dobbin. 290 10 P-1694 Document Number 5000017. Handwritten 11 notebook entries of Tracy Dobbin, 12 September 06 to 07, 1995. 294 13 P-1695 Transcript of London Comm Centre, Cst. 14 Miller, London Comm Centre-Logger tape 15 086, Track 4, elapsed time:23:23:55, 16 real time 23:47, September 06, 1995. 17 disc 04 of 20. 300 18 P-1696 Transcript of London Comm Centre, Cst 19 Miller, London Comm Centre, logger tape 20 086, track 4, disc 4 of 20, elapsed time 21 23:26:36, real time 23:50, September 06, 22 1995. 306 23 P-1697 Document Number 2000701. Prisoner 24 Report, James George, September 07, 1995. 321 25


1 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1698 Document Number 2000700. Prisoner 4 Report, Perry George, September 07, 5 1995 322 6 P-1699 Document Number 2000699. Prisoner Report, 7 Carolyn George, September 07, 1995. 322 8 P-1700 Document Number 2003455. Typed and 9 handwritten OPP statement of Tracy Dobbin, 10 September 07, 1995. 330 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, we would 13 call next -- as the next witness, Constable Steven Lorch. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good day, 15 sir. 16 MR. STEVEN LORCH: Good morning. 17 18 STEVEN CHARLES LORCH, Sworn 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: Good morning, Constable Lorch. 22 A: Good morning. 23 Q: Perhaps, Constable Lorch, I can ask 24 you to turn to the brief in front of you, the brief of 25 documents in front of you. And if you could turn to the


1 first tab in that. It's Inquiry Document 2005557. 2 Are you with me on that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you'll agree with me that that is 5 your curriculum vitae or at least a-- a document that 6 outlines your experience and your background, your 7 training? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: If I can ask that that be marked as 10 the first exhibit this morning, Commissioner, please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1684, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1684. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1684: Document Number 2005557. 15 Resume of Steven Charles 16 Lorch. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: And perhaps I can just start at the 20 outset of the that, Officer Lorch, you had joined the 21 Ontario Provincial Police in December of 1989, correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Now, there's a correction on that 24 document. In fact your date of hire was December the 4th 25 of 1989?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Prior to that I understand, sir that 3 you had completed the Law and Security Program at Mohawk 4 College. I take it that that would have been after 5 graduating from high school? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And subsequent to that, you had 8 opportunity to attend the University of Western Ontario 9 in 1986/1987? 10 A: 1988 and '89. 11 Q: '88 and '89, thank you. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And had studied psychology; is that 14 right? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And I take it, it would have been at 17 that point that you had -- your application to join the 18 Ontario Provincial Police had been granted and I take it, 19 you did not return back to University following that? 20 A: That's correct, I did not finish. 21 Q: Following your hiring in December of 22 '89, did you then go on to attend Police College? 23 A: I did. I attended in the spring of 24 1990, graduated in June of 1990. 25 Q: All right. And that would be the


1 Police College in Aylmer? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: All right. And following your 4 graduation you were then first posted to -- to a 5 Detachment located where? 6 A: Approximately seven and a half hours 7 northwest of Thunder Bay, Central -- Central Patricia 8 Detachment. 9 Q: Is that also known as Pickle Lake? 10 A: Yes. There is a new detachment built 11 approximately four or five months after I was up there 12 and it moved next door to Pickle Lake. Central 13 Patricia/Pickle Lake; basically the same. 14 Q: And I don't want -- and I wouldn't 15 ask you to spend a whole lot of time about that, but I 16 understand that that -- because of the remoteness of that 17 location that it did have some impact on you, in terms of 18 your policing, in terms of your being aware of the 19 general community and perhaps other communities in the 20 vicinity? 21 A: Yes, it was a very small community, 22 approximately seven hundred (700) people. It was a 23 mining community, basically. Approximately 30 kilometres 24 south was a First Nations territory with Osnaburg House. 25 And we did general patrols in the -- the Village of


1 Pickle Lake as well as assisting on the Reserve. 2 Q: I'm sorry, as well as? 3 A: I'm sorry -- oh, as well --as well as 4 assisting the First Nations Constables. 5 Q: I understand that Osnaburg House 6 First Nation, you mentioned was about -- approximately 30 7 kilometres away? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: They had a police detachment was it? 10 A: They didn't have a detachment. There 11 were two (2) officers, they worked out of the Pickle Lake 12 Detachment; that's where they were dispatched out of. 13 And -- 14 Q: And -- and you would from time to 15 time assist in patrolling the community? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: I'm going to ask you a little bit 18 about -- about your relationship insofar as that 19 particular community and whether or not, the officers 20 that you've just described for us, the First Nations 21 officers, did you have any relationship with them? 22 A: Yes, off-duty as well as on-duty. 23 Walter and Darren Johnansen; they were brothers. We used 24 to go out fishing and curling, hockey, baseball, 25 snowmobiling, et cetera, et cetera.


1 Q: And in terms of getting to know the 2 Osnaburg First Nation, did you have any -- any assistance 3 through -- either through those officers you've just 4 described or others? 5 A: Those -- 6 Q: Did you get to meet the community, I 7 guess is all I'm getting at? 8 A: Oh, yes, yes. 9 Q: And I -- 10 A: And actually my very -- my very first 11 shift there Walter took me around and I met the Chief, 12 Roy Komminiwash (phonetic) at the time and -- and a 13 couple of elders, as well. They introduced me my first 14 shift up there. 15 Q: All right. Did that assist you in 16 terms of policing the community? Did you find that that 17 was valuable at all? 18 A: Oh definitely. Getting to -- getting 19 to know and be introduced to these people. 20 Q: Given the relatively small community 21 I understand that you were involved in other team sports, 22 not only with these officers but other members of the 23 community? 24 A: Yes, that's correct. 25 Q: Up to that point, officer did you


1 have any specific training in terms of First Nations 2 culture or any type of cross-cultural or sensitivity 3 training? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: Had you any connection with or any 6 involvement with any First Nations communities prior to 7 that point? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: In 1992 you were transferred to the 10 Tillsonburg Detachment? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And I understand your duties at that 13 point were, again, simply general patrol type duties? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: General policing; is that fair? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: In 1994 you were transferred to the 18 St. Thomas Detachment? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Perhaps you could just indicate to -- 21 to us where that is? 22 A: The St. Thomas Detachment? 23 Q: Yes, please. 24 A: It's approximately 20 kilometres 25 south of London, basically in the center of Elgin County.


1 Q: We've heard a little bit about some 2 other First Nations communities located in that vicinity; 3 Oneida Settlement, Muncey, Chippewas of the Thames; are 4 you familiar with those communities? 5 A: Yes, I am. 6 Q: Had you any involvement as part of 7 your policing duties at St. Thomas with any of those 8 communities at all? 9 A: Not -- no. 10 Q: Is there any reason for that? 11 A: Those communities that you're 12 referring to parallel -- border with Middlesex OPP area 13 and those officers assist as required. 14 Q: The document that we're referring to 15 at Tab 1, P-1684, indicates that you would have had some 16 training in the Emergency Response Team, Containment 17 Search and Rescue, K-9 backup, VIP Security, Crowd 18 Management and Witness Protection, Meaford; and the dates 19 there are October, November of 1994. 20 I wonder if you would just take a moment, 21 and we've had some evidence on this, officer, but if you 22 could take a moment and tell us about that sort of 23 training? 24 A: Yes. I believe it was approximately 25 six (6) weeks training once I was selected to join the


1 Emergency Response Team. I was sent on the Emergency 2 Response training up in -- it was located at Canadian 3 Forces Base Meaford, was where we trained. And there was 4 approximately a week -- a week of crowd management. 5 Then we went on with search and rescue. 6 We learned how to do compass walks and grid searches, K-9 7 backup as -- as you indicated there, witness protection, 8 VIP security and other containment scenarios as well. 9 Q: In terms of, you've mentioned, crowd 10 management we've heard the acronym CMU; that would be 11 Crowd Management Unit? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And that's part of, we had come to 14 understand, part of the Emergency Response Team? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I take it that that training 17 would involve things like the formations -- the various 18 formations, the various orders that would be employed -- 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: -- as part of managing crowds? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: You'd be familiar with terms like 23 'punchout', et cetera? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: My training would have been as a 2 member of a Crowd Management Unit. 3 Q: And as a member of the Crowd 4 Management Unit would you train for a particular role as 5 part of that? 6 A: You were flexible. There's different 7 -- different areas of the Crowd Management Unit. You'd - 8 - you'd train -- so you were flexible so you could 9 participate in any -- any -- any section of the Crowd 10 Management Unit. 11 Q: As you might be assigned? 12 A: That's correct. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I see that, sir, in -- in September 17 of 2005 that you had participated in First Nations 18 awareness training in Mattawa? 19 A: Yes, that's correct. 20 Q: Could you tell us about that please? 21 A: Yes, it was a -- it was a week long 22 course. It was located at the Samuel De Champlain 23 Provincial Park just out by North Bay, just outside of 24 Mattawa. And it was a week long course put on jointly 25 with the OPP and I'm not sure of the other factions. But


1 -- Inspector Glenn Trivett was the lead there. 2 And it was a -- it was a week long 3 information -- information session. We -- we learned 4 through class work the information, as well as 5 participating; participating in -- in different things 6 as well. 7 Q: Was there anything of -- of 8 importance that you can tell us about that you would have 9 learned from this training? 10 A: A few -- a few things I learned about 11 -- about the importance of medicines. I learned about 12 the Elders and one thing that I did learn about, I had 13 never heard of residential schools before. I had never 14 heard of those before -- before this training. 15 Q: Okay. And I take it from -- from the 16 way that you've described that that that has had some -- 17 some impact on you; is that -- 18 A: Yes, it was. I found that very 19 disturbing that I had never -- I'd never heard of -- 20 heard of that before. 21 Q: All right. Just further, with 22 respect to your role as a member of the ERT prior to July 23 of 1995 or -- or at any point prior to 1995, had you been 24 involved in any callouts as part of that -- 25 A: Yes, I had.


1 Q: -- response team? 2 A: Yes, I had. 3 Q: Can -- can you tell us a bit about 4 that; what sort of situations -- 5 A: I would have been -- 6 Q: -- would that occur? 7 Q: -- called out for some containment 8 calls, dog tracks, search and -- search and rescue, 9 evidence searches, scene securities; that type of 10 occurrences. 11 Q: And how do you understand the 12 protocol or the procedure for a callout? What -- what 13 happens? 14 A: We would get paged by the -- either 15 the team leader, the sergeant, or through the 16 Communications Centre. We would be advised where the 17 call is, what it is and given directions that way. 18 Q: All right. You've told us just a 19 moment ago, sir, that there were certain things about 20 First Nations that you were not aware of. I want to ask 21 you specifically about what awareness you had about the 22 Ipperwash area and the First Nations communities that 23 were involved, that -- that are involved here. 24 A: Hmm hmm. I -- I had no awareness 25 whatsoever of any past -- past histories of the area.


1 Q: You had attended to this area as a 2 youth I understand and -- 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: -- that wasn't something that people 5 spoke about or were knowledgeable about as far as you 6 were concerned? 7 A: I -- I attend -- I used to come up on 8 the summers for a week or two (2), stay at my aunt and 9 uncle's residence. And I was -- I was a very young age 10 possibly from birth up until the age of about thirteen 11 (13) or fourteen (14) and I -- I don't recall hearing 12 anything, no. 13 Q: Were you aware that there was a -- a 14 First Nations community in the -- in the vicinity -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- Kettle and Stony Point First 17 Nation? 18 A: No, I was not. 19 Q: All right. I -- I take it you would 20 have been familiar at least that there was the Ipperwash 21 Army Base or the CFB Ipperwash? 22 A: At -- at the time when I was in the 23 area you mean? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I -- I might have a vague


1 recollection of it I'm not -- I don't recall. 2 Q: I take it you never attended to the - 3 - the firing range at the Army Base or -- 4 A: No, no. 5 Q: -- at any place at the Army Base? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And I'll -- and I can take it from 8 that that you had no awareness that there were First 9 Nations that were making claims specifically with respect 10 to the Army Base and that there were grievances arising 11 as a result of -- of the Army Base being there? 12 A: No, sir, I had no -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- no idea. 15 Q: Now, Officer Lorch, on the 29th of 16 July I understand that you had a callout from your team 17 leader, the -- that is the ERT Team Leader? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Can you tell us about that? First of 20 all do you have a -- a recollection of that event? 21 A: I do have an independent 22 recollection. I've also got, in my notebook, if I might 23 refresh my memory with it. 24 Q: Perhaps I can ask you firstly just 25 before you do that --


1 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- what -- what it is that you -- 3 that you can recall independent of your notes of the 4 callout from the 29th of July, 1995? 5 A: I was paged and advised that there 6 were some problems at -- in Ipperwash and to attend I 7 believe it was the Forest Detachment. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I went -- I went to -- I was at a 10 baseball tournament that day. I attended my residence, 11 began packing, and I was paged approximately an hour/hour 12 and a half later and I was advised to disregard. 13 Q: All right. You mentioned that you 14 have some notes and I see a notebook in front of you. 15 You have at your page 19 of that notebook at the top of 16 that page the date July 28th, 1995, which is a rest day 17 and following that Saturday, 29 July, 1995, correct? 18 A: That's -- that's correct. 19 Q: And if I can ask you to turn to the 20 brief of documents in front of you at Tab Number 2 you'll 21 see there's Inquiry Document -- do you see the inquiry 22 document at the top, it's marked 2005575? 23 A: Yes, I see it. 24 Q: And is that a copy of the notebook 25 that you have in front of you?


1 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: Perhaps I can ask that these notes at 3 Tab 2 be marked as the next exhibit, please? 4 A: P-1685, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1685: Document Number 2005575. 7 Handwritten notebook entries 8 of Steven Charles Lorch, July 9 28 to August 04,1995, August 10 11-14, 1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: And if I can just ask you to read the 14 entry I've referred you to there, Officer, Saturday, 29 15 July, 1995; it says, "rest day." 16 A: That's correct. I was -- it was a -- 17 it was a non-scheduled work day. I was on my time-off 18 when I was paged for this. 19 Q: Okay. And just continue, if you 20 would read that for us please? 21 A: Yes, at 17:20 -- can I refer in the 22 24 hour system, is that okay? 23 Q: Absolutely. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: I would ask that you read it as it's


1 -- as it's noted. 2 A: 17:20 I was paged. I was advised to 3 attend the Strathroy Detachment as soon as possible for 4 an ERT call at Ipperwash. I was advised to wear a normal 5 working uniform and have my ERT gear ready to go. 6 Q: Let me just stop you there, if I may. 7 And what is the difference between your normal working 8 gear and your ERT gear? 9 A: Normal working gear is the regular 10 blue uniform with the blue polyester pants with the blue 11 stripe down the side and the blue top. 12 Q: All right. And the ERT gear? 13 A: The ERT gear. We have two (2) colour 14 uniforms; one (1) was grey. They were looser fitting 15 more rugged, ruggedly designed. One (1) was grey and one 16 (1) was green for containment calls. 17 Q: All right. And when it says, "have 18 your ERT gear ready to go", did it -- did it matter to 19 you which -- which uniform? 20 A: I would have -- I would have had 21 everything with me. 22 Q: You would have had both? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: What about in terms of equipment, was 25 there -- is there a distinction between your normal gear


1 and your ERT gear? 2 A: Yes, my ERT gear would consist of 3 Crowd Management Unit gear. 4 Q: We've heard that described by others 5 as hard TAC; is that fair? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Would there be soft TAC, as well? 8 A: There is. Soft TAC is just a 9 different deployment of the Crowd Management Unit. I 10 would have had all of the equipment provided for crowd 11 management. I would have had the compass, everything. I 12 would have had everything -- everything issued to me 13 through the Emergency Response Team. 14 Q: Would that include batons and such? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. What about in terms of 17 firearms, Officer? 18 A: I would have had my Force issued 19 pistol, as well as there's a rifle that's issued through 20 the Emergency Response Team program. 21 Q: And what type of rifle is that? 22 A: It is a Ruger mini-14. 23 Q: And the calibre? 24 A: 223. 25 Q: All right. All right. Just


1 continue if you would, please? 2 A: Okay. On the 29th as I had said in 3 -- earlier, I was paged and I attended my residence. I 4 began packing. At 18:48 I was called and told to 5 disregard. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm just interested in the 7 -- in the notation, I see that it -- there's a certain 8 administrative note there about the overtime I take it? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And then there is a twenty-nine (29) 11 at the bottom of that. Is that -- 12 A: What that is -- a daily activity 13 report that we would submit. 14 Q: Is it a form -- 15 A: It was -- it was an OPP form; it was 16 called an LE-29. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: It would have to be submitted. 19 Sometimes they were hard to keep track of to -- I usually 20 put that at the bottom of my -- of my dates. So that I 21 know that I've submitted it. 22 Q: Okay. So that when we come to your 23 notes from time to time, we might see that notation -- 24 A: That's -- that's correct. 25 Q: -- I simply want to give you


1 opportunity to explain that for us? 2 A: Okay. Thank you. 3 Q: Thank you. I take it you wouldn't 4 have attended having received the call to disregard? 5 A: No, I did not. 6 Q: And I note your -- you continue on 7 Sunday, 30th July, 1995, again a rest day? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And what happens? 10 A: At 17:00 hours I was advised -- the 11 London Communications Centre, I'm not sure who would have 12 called me from there but, I was advised of an ERT call at 13 Ipperwash and to pack for two (2) days and to attend at 14 the Grand Bend Detachment. 15 Q: This is type of information that you 16 would typically receive on an ERT callout you -- you -- 17 that you've just described for us? 18 A: Yes, that's correct. 19 Q: Right. Continue then? 20 A: At 18:00 hours I attended the 21 Detachment, I picked up the van and my gear as well as my 22 long arms, my rifle as I said, my firearms are stored at 23 the Detachment. 24 At 18:45 I picked up Constable Ron Bell at 25 his residence and then I left to attend to the Grand Bend


1 Detachment. 2 Q: That's the 10-8? 3 A: That's correct. And -- 4 Q: All right. Continue. 5 A: At 20:00 hours I was 10-7, meaning I 6 attended at the Grand Bend Detachment, at which time I 7 was advised to attend the Pinery Park. I went to the 8 Pinery Park and we were advised to stay at the living 9 quarters within the Park and be prepared to go to 10 Ipperwash if needed because there had been some problems. 11 Q: And perhaps I could just ask you -- 12 A: Okay. I'm sorry. 13 Q: -- if you could read the notes as it 14 -- as -- as you've recorded them there? 15 A: "Advised we are to stay at living 16 quarters and be prepared to go to 17 Ipperwash if needed because of First 18 Nations problems at Army Base and 19 Provincial Park. Advised we can 20 claim..." 21 Q: Okay, and that -- that's fine -- 22 A: "... administrative..." 23 Q: -- there's an administrative note -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- there at that point in time. In


1 terms of the advice that you had received to be prepared 2 to go to Ipperwash if necessary what -- what were the 3 types of problems that were being suggested; because of 4 First Nations problems at the Army Base? What was -- 5 what can you recall from that? 6 A: I recall hearing that some First 7 Nations person had -- persons had occupied the -- the 8 Army Base. 9 Q: Beyond that you didn't have any 10 information as to the nature of the occupation of the 11 Army Base? 12 A: No. No. 13 Q: And in terms of numbers, in terms of 14 any interactions that might have occurred? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Had you been informed that the Army 17 had vacated the -- the Army Base in and around that same 18 period of time? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Did you attend to the Pinery as 21 you've indicated then? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I understand, Officer, that you 24 would have remained at the Pinery Park at the living 25 quarters that you've indicated on the 31st July through


1 to August the 1st? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Right at the bottom of that page that 4 we've looked at, at P-1685 at page 19, the last entry 5 there is Monday, 31 July of 1995, and I take it that 6 there was nothing remarkable that day? 7 A: No. 8 Q: If you flip over to the next page, at 9 page 20, it commences 01 August, '95. There's an entry 10 at 03:00 hours and perhaps you can just take a moment and 11 tell us about that? 12 A: At 03:00 hours I was asleep in the 13 living quarters in The Pinery Provincial Park. I was 14 woke up and advised I was required to assist -- assist 15 with patrols in the area as there was a fatal -- I'm 16 sorry, you want me to read verbatim or -- 17 Q: Perhaps you can read it verbatim or - 18 - yeah, please? 19 A: Okay. 20 "Woke up to assist re. extra patrols on 21 Ipperwash re. fatal MVA." 22 I recall there being a fatal motor vehicle 23 accident in the area and they just needed some extra 24 assistance. 25 Q: Did you attend at that motor vehicle


1 fatality? 2 A: No, I did not. Approximately twenty 3 (20) minutes before I had left I was advised that I was - 4 - was not required but they just took my Force vehicle to 5 use. 6 Q: All right. And I see then later that 7 morning your -- your shift then continues some three (3) 8 or four (4) hours later? 9 A: That's correct, seven o'clock. 10 Q: Or commences rather. And I note that 11 you're on-duty and at 22:00 hours you are on general 12 patrol with Sergeant Graham; do I have that right? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Okay. And at 22:35 it says "10-8 15 foot patrol"; what can you tell us about that? 16 A: We went down to the Provincial Park. 17 We just parked the cruiser and just walked -- walked 18 around the interior of the Provincial Park. 19 Q: Now, do you recall whether or not you 20 would have had a briefing as to what might be expected or 21 anticipated or the reason that you would be doing foot 22 patrol in the Provincial Park? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: All right. Were you aware that there 25 were other OPP officers in an undercover capacity in the


1 Park itself? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Can you recall whether there had been 4 information that there would be a possible takeover of 5 the Provincial Park following the closure for the season 6 of that park? 7 A: Once again, I don't -- I don't 8 recall. 9 Q: You have -- you have no entries of -- 10 of any significance, I'll suggest, Officer -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- for that particular day; can we 13 take it from that that there was nothing -- 14 A: Yes. No, I -- 15 Q: -- remarkable? 16 A: -- I -- I don't recall anything of 17 significance and there's nothing indicated in my notes as 18 well. 19 Q: Wednesday, 2nd August of 1995 it 20 would appear that you started the day at 07:00 hours? 21 A: That's correct. Then I returned to 22 my home Detachment. 23 Q: Is that the entry at 10:50? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: During the course of your foot patrol


1 and again I -- I recognize you don't have any specific 2 entry, but do you recall any interactions you may have 3 had with anybody? 4 A: I -- I don't recall. 5 Q: All right. When did you next return 6 to the area, Officer, after returning to your own 7 detachment on the 1st of -- pardon me, the 2nd of August? 8 A: It would have been the 11th of 9 August, I believe. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I'm going to ask you to turn to your 14 notes at -- which are three (3) pages in on the book of 15 documents in front of you; it starts at just about the 16 middle of the page Friday, 11th of August, 1995. 17 A: Yes, I have it, sir. 18 Q: All right. What is the entry just 19 under that date if you would? Is that assigned -- 20 A: "Assignment ERT to Ipperwash." 21 Q: All right. And at 07:00 hours? 22 A: "I packed for a four (4) day -- four 23 (4) days." 24 Q: And I take it that this would be 25 again part of the general instructions that you would


1 receive from a team leader? 2 A: A team leader or through the 3 Communications Centre. 4 Q: Or through the Comms, right? 5 A: That's correct, yes. 6 Q: All right. And go ahead and tell us 7 then what happened on the -- August 11th. Refer to your 8 notes if you -- if you would as well, please? 9 A: Please. At 7:25 I attended the 10 Detachment and I met Sergeant Van Damme who was the 11 Sergeant Team Leader for my Emergency Response Team at 12 that time. 13 At 8:05 we were -- we left -- we 10-8 to 14 Grand Bend. At 9:35 we were 10-7 at the Pinery Park. 15 And then at 10:15 I have indicated we had a briefing on 16 Native problems. 17 Q: Let me just stop you there and ask 18 you what you can tell us about that briefing; what you -- 19 what can you recall if anything? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Carry on, please? It would appear -- 22 A: It -- 23 Q: -- that 11:00 hours -- perhaps I can 24 just interrupt? 25 A: Hmm hmm.


1 Q: You're -- you're staying at the 2 barracks. Does that say...? 3 A: "On-call." 4 Q: On-call, pardon me. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: The barracks, referring to again as 8 the Pinery Park. 9 Q: The building at Pinery Park where you 10 were situated with others I take it? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Yeah. Okay. During the time that 13 you're on the barracks on-call did you hear any 14 discussion or did you come into any information about any 15 other possible occupations? 16 A: I -- I don't -- I don't recall. 17 Q: And specifically did you hear 18 anything about the potential occupation of the Pinery 19 Park where you were -- where you were located? 20 A: I -- I vaguely recollect hearing that 21 there possibly could be problems at the Pinery Park, but 22 I -- once again I -- I don't recall exact specifics. 23 Q: And can I take it from that that you 24 don't recall whether that would have came through as part 25 of your formal briefing or whether that was simply --


1 A: No. 2 Q: -- talked about? 3 A: No, I don't know. 4 Q: You continued to -- to stay on-call 5 on Saturday, August the 12th. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Okay. If I can just ask you to turn 8 to the -- to the -- the next page. I'm sorry I don't 9 have a -- a note, I don't have a page number to refer you 10 to, but it's the last pag of the document at Tab Number 2 11 and it starts at the top page, 12 August '95, and the 12 time indicated is 20:40 hours. 13 A: Yes, I have it. 14 Q: Does that -- and that -- does that 15 say, "Patrol Provincial Park?" 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And at 21:00 hours you have a 18 notation there. Perhaps, I'm going to -- if you would 19 read that notation and -- just the notation under 21:00 20 hours. 21 A: "21:00 hours spoke to a young girl 22 who was on the CFB side. We advised 23 her she should stay on our side. Says 24 she was just visiting friends who feel 25 harassed if they come over on this


1 side. Didn't seem too concerned." 2 And then I have an indication of an 3 Ontario licence plate. 4 Q: Okay. This young girl that you spoke 5 to, was she in that vehicle? 6 A: I -- I don't believe -- no, she was 7 on the beach. 8 Q: All right. And the CFB side of 9 course, that's -- you're referring to Canadian Forces 10 Base? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And when you say that we advised her 13 that she should stay on our side, what do you -- what do 14 you mean by that? 15 A: I'm referring to the private or -- 16 I'm sorry -- the public portion of the beach; that's 17 where I was standing and she was over, well within the 18 Canadian Forces Base side of the -- of this -- of that 19 property, on the beach. 20 Q: All right. And when you say she was 21 visiting friends and feel harassed if they come over to 22 this side, what did you take from that? 23 A: I don't -- I don't recall. I don't 24 recall which -- which side or I don't remember what 25 context she was referring to that in.


1 Q: Do you have a recollection whether 2 the friends that she was visiting were -- were First 3 Nations, or not? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: Whether she was or not? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: If you can just quickly take a look 8 at the balance of the entries for that date, is there 9 anything else there that you have of note? 10 A: Nothing -- nothing of note. 11 Q: Just the notation at 00 -- is that 12 15, pardon me -- the copy that I have it's quite 13 difficult to read. 14 A: Okay. It's at 00:15. So that would 15 have been the early morning of Sunday the 13th of August. 16 "Observed a vehicle exit the Base that 17 went southbound on 21 at an extremely 18 high rate of speed and went out onto 19 Highway 21." 20 Would have been in a west -- western 21 direction at high rate of speed, passing cars, driving in 22 an erratic manner. 23 We cont -- we went in that direction but, 24 there was no chance of ever catching the vehicle or 25 anything.


1 Q: All right. And I take it you don't 2 know where that vehicle went or who was operating it? 3 A: I have indicated -- I have indicated 4 that the vehicle went -- I'm not sure if it says onto or 5 Kettle -- Kettle -- I have indicated Kettle, I'm assuming 6 it would refer to the Kettle Point area over there, went 7 over to that direction before we could catch it. 8 Q: All right. Fair enough. If I can 9 ask you just to take a look at the document at Tab Number 10 4, Officer. It's Inquiry Document 2000839. It's a 11 single page document. 12 First of all, is that your handwriting? 13 A: No, it is not. 14 Q: See your name indicated and your 15 badge number indicated just behind R.W. Bell? 16 A: I do. 17 Q: And it would seem to be a notation of 18 the events from August the 11th to the early morning of 19 August the 12th; do you see that? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you've had an opportunity to 22 review that document before we've came in here today? 23 A: Yes, I have looked at it. 24 Q: And does that -- is there anything in 25 there that coincides with what you've already told us


1 about or what you have noted? 2 A: There are -- there are extra points 3 that Constable Bell would have been recording in this -- 4 on this form that he was completing here with our -- with 5 our activities of the evening. I do -- I do recall a few 6 points in there, but -- but it is written in his 7 handwriting. 8 Q: All right. Perhaps I'm going to ask 9 that that be made the next Exhibit, as well then. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1686 Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1686: Document Number 2000839. 13 Handwritten Daily Activity 14 Report, August 11, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: And you'll agree with me that it 18 simply sets out a little bit greater detail of the 19 observations that you made during the foot patrols that 20 you were on? 21 A: That's -- vehicle patrols -- 22 Q: Of vehicle patrols. 23 A: -- that's correct. 24 Q: Thank you. 25 A: He's made the more -- more detailed


1 account of our activities. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps we can just finish 3 with your -- with your notes. We can go back then to the 4 last page of those documents at Tab 2, that we've marked 5 as 1685. See where it says, "August, Sunday?" 6 Is that, "rest day, 13th of August is that 7 '95?" 8 A: One (1) moment please. That's 9 correct, that was another rest day. 10 Q: You're still at The Pinery Park on 11 that day are you? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Did you have any other involvement 14 during the course of that or -- during the course of that 15 day with respect to your -- your duties? 16 A: The 13th, no. None that I recall. 17 Q: Now perhaps, I can ask you to turn 18 nextly then to the document at Tab 8. It's Inquiry 19 Document 2000845. Again, this would appear to be in the 20 same handwriting as the document you've just earlier 21 identified for us as being that of your partner of the 22 day, Officer Bell? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Can you see the entry at 01:15 hours? 25 The first entry at 00:15 --


1 A: Oh yes. On -- 2 Q: -- look at that. 3 A: -- on Constable Bell's sheet, yes, I 4 do. 5 Q: Can you read his -- can you read his 6 handwriting? 7 A: "Car stopped at campfire --" 8 Q: Oh, pardon me. I'm sorry, officer. 9 I can just ask you to go up two (2) entries? I -- 10 A: Okay. 00:15? 11 Q: 00:15, firstly. 12 A: Okay. Sorry. 13 Q: I'm sorry about that. 14 A: "Obs [probably referring to observed] 15 car leaving CFB and proceed southbound, 16 Highway 21, at high speed past three 17 (3) cars and tractor-trailer before 18 turning into Kettle Point. I'm unable 19 to catch up." 20 Q: And that's consistent with what 21 you've indicated in your notes and what you can recall 22 for us? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: All right. And the entry at 01:15? 25 A: 01:15 on Constable Bell's sheet, he


1 says: 2 "Car stopped at campfire. Shone 3 brilliant spotlight on youth and us." 4 I believe it says. 5 Q: Tell us about that. What do you 6 recall from -- from that entry, if it assists you in your 7 recollection? 8 A: I just -- I just recall vehicles on 9 the Canadian Forces Base side shining -- shining lights 10 and spotlights upon vehicles and officers on -- on Army 11 Camp Road. 12 Q: Up to that point in time as you're 13 driving on Army Camp Road were you subject to that; that 14 is were there any spotlights shone on you? 15 A: I do -- I do recall spotlights being 16 shone on us, yes. 17 Q: What effect, if any, does that have? 18 A: Officer safety for -- for one (1) 19 thing. When a -- when a bright light is shone on 20 somebody, for one thing, if -- at nighttime you lose all 21 your night vision. It's very hard to acquire your night 22 vision back. It's very hard to see after you've had a 23 bright light shone on you. 24 For one (1) thing, if a vehicle's driving 25 it can very -- distract the driver. It's dangerous.


1 Q: All right. At 01:30 hours you have 2 it -- there's an entry there on Officer Bell's notes? 3 A: On Officer Bell's notes, yes. He has 4 indicated at 1:30: 5 "Dump truck eastbound from beach [he 6 has the number sign] of youths in 7 back." 8 Do you have any recollection of -- of the 9 event he's describing there? 10 A: I recall a dump truck driving around 11 with some youths in the back. I don't necessarily recall 12 it being at 1:30 in the morning at that -- I -- I have a 13 vague recollection of -- of that. 14 Q: And lastly I'm going to ask you about 15 the entry at 02:10 hours and whether -- whether that 16 refreshes your memory? It would seems to indicate: 17 "Car entered CFB from eastbound Army 18 Camp Road." 19 Is that fair? 20 A: That's what Constable Bell has refer 21 -- has listed, yes. 22 Q: And does that assist you in recalling 23 anything relevant to -- 24 A: I don't -- I don't recall that. 25 Q: I don't know if I've asked,


1 Commissioner, but perhaps if I haven't, if that could be 2 made the next exhibit please? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1687, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1687: Document Number 2000845. 6 Handwritten Daily Activity 7 Report, August 12-13, 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: All right. Officer, I understand 11 that you continued to -- patrolling in the Ipperwash area 12 on the 14th of August, 1995? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And do you have anything of note or 15 do you have any recollection of anything remarkable 16 during the course of that patrol? 17 A: I don't have any recollection of 18 anything of importance occurring, no. 19 Q: All right. And if I may just ask you 20 to take a look at the document at Tab 5. This has 21 already been marked as Exhibit P-413, and you'll see it's 22 entitled, CFB Intelligence Report. 23 Do you see that document? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Had you ever seen that before or at


1 the time? 2 A: No. 3 Q: If I can ask you just to turn in 4 three (3) pages. I can tell you that this is an excerpt 5 of a fairly extensive document. If you go in to the 6 fourth page in, it's page 46, you'll see page... 7 A: No -- okay. It says "46" so yes, I - 8 - I see it now. 9 Q: All right. The 13th of August '95, 10 01:00 hours, do you see your name there together with -- 11 with the name, "Bell"? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: "Ten (10) to fifteen (15) young 14 persons around fire on the beach CFB side. A 15 lot of non-Natives." 16 A: Yes, I see that. 17 Q: All right. Is that consistent with - 18 - with what you had earlier observed in Officer Bell's 19 handwritten note? 20 A: I'd have to refer back to it again, 21 I'm sorry. Do you know which tab that was? 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: The 13th of August. Sorry, I -- 24 Q: It's at Tab 8. 25 A: 8.


1 Q: Do you see the entry at 01:15 hours: 2 "Car stopped at campfire. Shone 3 brilliant spotlight on youths and us? 4 A: That -- that could be referring to 5 that point, I'm not sure. 6 Q: And if you look at the -- the very 7 next entry at the -- on the document at Tab 5 and again 8 that is Exhibit P-413. 9 Do you see the second entry on page 46, 10 August -- 13 August '95? It says: 11 "Car stopped at campfire. Shone 12 brilliant spotlight on youths and us." 13 Are these -- 14 A: Yes, that's consistent with what 15 Constable Bell -- 16 Q: All right. 17 A: -- has recorded. 18 Q: Thank you. I'm going to ask you to 19 turn nextly to the document at Tab Number 9. It's a 20 further handwritten note. Again, I'm going to suggest to 21 you that that is Constable Bell's handwriting that you've 22 already identified for us. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: It's Exhibit -- pardon me, it's 25 Inquiry Document Number 2000851, and it would seem to


1 detail your tour from 14 of August 07:00 to 21:00? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: All right. And again are the entries 4 that are made on that -- on that page, Officer, are they 5 consistent with your recollection of what you've recorded 6 in your notes? 7 A: In my notes I have that all was 8 quiet. I don't have any recollection of anything of note 9 occurring that day? 10 Q: All right. Do you see the entry at - 11 - at -- the document at Tab 9 at 07:45 hours? It says: 12 "Vehicle..." 13 And I'm going -- I'm jumping to the second 14 part of that first sentence. It says: 15 "Vehicle similar to one obs 16 jacklighting campers." 17 A: Yes, that what he has indicated. 18 Q: All right. You don't have any reason 19 to -- to dispute what's recorded? 20 A: I don't have any reason to dispute 21 what's recorded, no. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps I can ask that 23 that be marked the next exhibit, then? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1688, Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1688: Document Number 2000851. 2 Handwritten Daily Activity 3 Report, August 14, 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: And, Observer Lorch, do you 7 understand or did you have an understanding of the reason 8 that these various patrols were engaged in, the foot 9 patrols as well as -- as well as the vehicle patrols? 10 What was the purpose behind that? What 11 was your understanding? 12 A: Just to provide a police presence in 13 the area. 14 Q: As part of providing a police 15 presence were you also instructed to check any vehicles? 16 A: I don't recall any specific 17 directions. 18 Q: All right. During the course of 19 providing this police presence, had you any occasion to 20 speak with Inspector Carson or Staff Sergeant Wright? 21 A: No. 22 Q: I take it that that would have been 23 outside the chain of command that you were involved in? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And sir, on August the 15th of 1995,


1 you continued to be on standby at the Pinery Park? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: Anything further of comment on that 4 date? 5 A: None -- none that I can recall or 6 I've indicated. 7 Q: I understand you nextly returned to 8 the area on the 4th of September 1995? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: In the intervening period, I take it 11 you would have had no occasion to be involved in any way 12 the matters that were going on at -- 13 A: No, I would have -- 14 Q: -- at Ipperwash? 15 A: -- I would have been back doing my 16 normal general duties at St. Thomas Detachment. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: You have your notes, Officer, from 21 the 4th of September, 1995 in your book in front of you? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: It commences at page 50 does it -- 24 pardon me, 60? 25 A: 60, yes.


1 Q: And if I can ask you to look at the 2 brief of documents in front of you, the documents under 3 Tab 10? 4 A: Yes, sir? 5 Q: Sir that copy in front of you? 6 A: Yes, I do, sir. 7 Q: And is that consistent with the 8 actual book -- 9 A: It is. 10 Q: -- your actual book? 11 A: It is a direct copy. 12 Q: Could I ask that that be made the 13 next Exhibit, please? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1689, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1689: Document Number 2005424. 17 Handwritten notebook entries, 18 September 04 to 06, 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And for the record 1689 or that -- 22 that's just been marked is that -- is Inquiry Document 23 2005424. Perhaps, Officer, I can ask you to just go 24 ahead and read the entires that you have, commencing at 25 04 September, '95?


1 A: At 21:30 hours I was paged and 2 advised to attend the Forest Detachment as soon as 3 possible. 22:30 hours I attended the Detachment and 4 loaded up the van with my -- with my ERT kit. 5 22:45 I picked up P/C Marissen, who was 6 another member of the Emergency Response Team. At 23:20 7 I attended at the Dutton Detachment. At 12 -- 00:30 8 hours -- 9 Q: We're now into the 5th of September; 10 is it? 11 A: That's correct. That's correct. At 12 00:30 hours I attended at the Forest Detachment and I put 13 on my -- my grey ERT uniform. 14 Q: And I take it that you would have put 15 on your grey ERT uniform as a -- as a matter of being 16 instructed to do so? 17 A: That's correct. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Continue. Your evidentiary at 01:10; 22 is that correct? 23 A: At 01:10, I have indicated briefing. 24 Q: Let me ask you if you can recall for 25 us, what that briefing was about, who provided the


1 briefing if you could? 2 A: I -- I have no independent 3 recollection of what it contained or who gave it. 4 Q: All right. You have a number of 5 names following that. I take it that these would be 6 fellow officers from the ERT team? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And perhaps you can just go ahead and 9 read that if you would then? 10 A: Okay. I have: 11 "Slack and Van Damme were call sign 12 2420, [2-4-2-0]. Hall, Horzempa were 13 call sign 2422. Marissen and LeBlanc 14 were call sign 2425. Lima and Sword 15 were call sign 2423. Lorch and Bell, 16 call sign 2424. Bittner and Atchison 17 [I have indicated H, their] call sign 18 was 2421." 19 I also have indicated that Doug Babbitt 20 was in charge of the Comm Centre at that time. 21 Q: All right. So this briefing, it 22 would appear, went on for some one (1) hour and twenty 23 (20) minutes. Is that what we can take from that? 24 A: I don't have indicated when the 25 briefing ended. My next notation was 10:07 at a


1 checkpoint, so I can't say that it lasted that entire 2 duration. 3 Q: And what do your notes tell you about 4 the balance of that particular... 5 A: At 2:30 I was 10-7 at a checkpoint 6 located at East Parkway Road. I have indicated south of 7 the Provincial Park but I believe the north south has 8 been identified, it would be west, which has been 9 identified to the Commission. 10 Q: In any event, you're on -- you're on 11 East Parkway Road? 12 A: Yes, located to the west of the 13 Provincial Park. 14 Q: All right. Did that particular 15 checkpoint have a call sign or a number -- 16 A: I -- 17 Q: -- assigned to it? 18 A: I don't have indicated and I don't 19 recall. 20 Q: Okay. Just continue then, please? 21 A: Yes. It -- I also have indicated at 22 the end of that: 23 "Checked vehicles." 24 Q: Do you have any independent 25 recollection -- I see you have no note, but do you have


1 any recollection of vehicles that you would have checked? 2 A: I -- the only -- the only 3 recollection I have is one (1) notation at 7:25. 4 Q: Right. And what does that say? 5 A: I have listed two (2) -- or: 6 "ZX6 241" 7 And I have indicated that: 8 "Checking area for pipeline." 9 Q: Okay. We understand that that was a 10 Township vehicle that was out -- 11 A: It's possible, yes. 12 Q: You don't have any recollection? 13 A: I -- I don't recall. 14 Q: Right. Anything else of remark 15 during that particular course of your duty? 16 A: Not that I recall, no. 17 Q: And nothing that you've noted either? 18 A: No. None. 19 Q: Had you received any information as 20 to what was going at the Park, can you can recall for us 21 now? 22 A: None that I recall. 23 Q: And I take it that the reason that 24 you're out on these checkpoints is for the same reasons 25 as previous, or do you know?


1 A: For the -- I -- I don't know. 2 Q: All right. Had you had any knowledge 3 about any of the local residents, and by that I mean 4 people that had homes or cottages in the vicinity; 5 whether they had any concerns about what was going on at 6 the time? 7 A: None. None that I recall, no. 8 Q: You've indicated that you were paired 9 up with Provincial Constable Bell and you're assigned to 10 a checkpoint in some location? 11 A: That's correct, yes. 12 Q: Okay. Are you familiar with the 13 locations of what we've come to know as Checkpoint Alpha 14 and Checkpoint Bravo? 15 A: I'm -- I'm not familiar with them, 16 no. 17 Q: Were you -- well, I -- I was going to 18 ask you whether you were at either of those but I take it 19 you wouldn't be able to tell us? 20 A: I don't recall. I just -- I have 21 indicated East Parkway Road. 22 Q: Okay. You go off duty at 09:30 23 hours? 24 A: Yes, that's correct. 25 Q: And I take it from that you would


1 have went back -- after you're off duty, you would have 2 went back to the Pinery Park? Or can you recall, first, 3 where you were? 4 A: I have indicated at 09:00 we were: 5 "10-8 to Grand Bend. 09:30 off duty." 6 We would -- would have been staying in 7 Grand Bend that time. 8 Q: So you've moved out of Pinery Park. 9 You're at a residence or at a hotel or something? 10 A: It was a hotel. 11 Q: Okay. Do you have any recollection 12 as to the name of that? 13 A: I don't, no. 14 Q: You returned to duty at 18:00 hours 15 on the 5th of September and attended to the Forest 16 Detachment, yes? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Okay. And what happens at that 19 point? 20 A: I have indicated in my notes at 18:30 21 there was a briefing. 22 Q: I'm going to stop you there and ask 23 you again about that briefing; whether you can tell us 24 who provided that and what it was about, if you can 25 recall?


1 A: Once -- once again, I don't have -- I 2 don't have any independent recollection. And I don't 3 have anything in my notes other than the briefing. 4 Q: Okay. And perhaps I'm just going to 5 ask you at this point as well, Officer Lorch, about your 6 note taking practices; what they were then? What sort of 7 things might your record? When you would have made such 8 recordings? 9 A: Yes. Well, my note taking has 10 definitely improved. It was a learning experience. Now, 11 whenever we go out to different details and assignments 12 you -- you can never write down too much -- too much 13 information. 14 Q: Especially when you're asked 15 questions about the details ten (10) years later? 16 A: Yes. Yes, ten (10) or eleven (11) 17 years later, definitely. 18 Q: Right. When did you make your 19 recordings typically? When would you record the notes as 20 you have in your notebook? 21 A: During the course of the -- of the 22 shift, either bits and pieces through the course of the 23 shift or at the end of the shift. It would have been 24 totally completed prior to the end of the shift, going 25 off duty.


1 Q: And that was your typical practice 2 then? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And your practice now? 5 A: It is, yes. 6 Q: All right. You have an entry at 7 19:00 hours just at the bottom of that page, Officer, at 8 page 60? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Can you help me out there? What -- 11 what does that say? 12 A: "19:00, 10-7 Highway 21 at Army Camp 13 Road, Checkpoint Delta." 14 Q: All right. Does that assist you in 15 terms of what it was you were doing and where you were 16 located? 17 A: It assists me in the general area 18 where I was located, yes. 19 Q: But I take it you don't have a -- a 20 recollection of being at that checkpoint, being assigned 21 to that checkpoint? 22 A: I have a recollection of being -- 23 being at that location, yes. 24 Q: But not necessarily the name of that 25 checkpoint; is that fair?


1 A: It -- it was -- that area was known 2 as Checkpoint Delta. 3 Q: All right. And if we can flip to the 4 next page, that continues -- pardon me, is there anything 5 of -- of remark on your -- on your notebook from the 5th 6 of September, following your page 60? You see the last 7 entry at the bottom of the page is 19:00 hours; at the 8 bottom of page 60? 9 A: Yes. That's -- that's correct, yes. 10 Q: And is your next entry at the top of 11 the next page 07:50 hours? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: And that's now into the 6th of 14 September, 1995? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And what can you tell us about the -- 17 the balance of that shift of duty before you went off? 18 A: That shift, we would have -- there 19 would have been several other uniforms there as well. 20 And being a junior member, as with Constable Bell, 21 someone else was recording -- recording activities, so I 22 did not record everything in my notes. 23 Q: Perhaps you can just go ahead and 24 tell us what you do have recorded there? Again, I 25 apologize, my -- my copy is not so easy to read.


1 A: I just -- I just have indicated: 2 "19:00, 10-7 Highway 21 at Army Camp 3 Road, Checkpoint Delta." 4 And my next notation is: 5 "07:50, relieved." 6 Q: Yeah. Carry on. At -- is that next 7 entry 08:05? 8 A: That's correct. 9 "10-7 Forest. Advised of operation to 10 remove picnic tables." 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: "08:30, 10-7 the TOC. 09:00, moved 13 to beach access. 9:45, 10-7 Forest. 14 10:30, off duty." 15 Q: All right. And let me just ask you a 16 couple of questions about those entries, if I may, 17 Officer. 18 At 8:05 you're at the Forest Detachment, 19 you're advised of the operation to remove picnic tables. 20 What -- what can you recall about that? 21 A: I just recall that there was a 22 problem with some picnic tables located by the 23 intersection of Army Camp Road and I believe the -- that 24 other west road there and -- and we were going to go down 25 and help removed some picnic tables.


1 Q: Okay. And you were 8:30, 10-7 the 2 TOC. We understand to be -- that to be the Tactical 3 Operations Centre? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And that was located down Eastway 6 Park -- East Parkway Drive, pardon me, a ways -- 7 A: To the -- to the west, yes. 8 Q: -- in the -- what -- what we have 9 come to know as the Ministry of Natural Resources 10 overflow parking lot? 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And just tell us about 15 what your involvement was in terms of -- of that 16 operation to remove the picnic tables. 17 A: I recall going down east to the 18 location where the picnic tables were, but by the time I 19 arrived the majority of the picnic tables had already 20 been stacked up to be removed. The majority of the 21 moving had already been done by the time I attended. 22 Q: All right. And you go off duty at 23 10:30 hours? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Now, sir, you've indicated that it


1 was your belief that there were others who would be 2 maintaining logs and notes about the events during the 3 course of that particular shift? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And we have come to understand that 6 you had not necessarily recorded things in your notebook 7 but you have some recollection and have told others about 8 hearing certain things during that night? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 Q: Tell us about that? 11 A: At one (1) point -- at one (1) point 12 through the evening I heard a -- the sound of automatic 13 gunfire coming from -- 14 Q: Where was this coming from? 15 A: Coming from a northeast direction 16 from our location. 17 Q: And again, your location is near the 18 entrance to the Army Camp? 19 A: Near the entrance, that's correct. 20 That's correct. 21 Q: Your location is north of the 22 entrance to the Army Base, the main entrance? 23 A: I don't recall the exact location. 24 It is possible. 25 Q: And just let me ask you a bit more


1 about what you've described as automatic gunfire. First 2 of all, how do you know and how can you distinguish 3 automatic gunfire from say, for example, a number of 4 weapons being discharged? 5 A: I've -- we've had training before at 6 the firing range involving the OPP TRU team. And they 7 have weapons similar to that sound. And I've heard, I 8 could hear the -- it was a familiar sound of the 9 discharge of several rounds in quick succession. 10 Q: When you say, "several rounds," do 11 you have any recollection as to how many rounds that 12 might be? 13 A: Twelve (12) to fifteen (15). 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay. Hearing this automatic weapon 19 fire, what did you think about that? 20 A: It heightened my awareness that -- it 21 was the first time I'd heard automatic gunfire like that, 22 other than at a training scenario. 23 Q: Now, it may be suggested to you that 24 given it heightened your awareness, might you not have 25 recorded that in your notes?


1 A: I might have. 2 Q: And you have -- yet you have no 3 recording of that in your notebook? 4 A: No, I have independent recollection-- 5 Q: And you're -- I'm sorry to interrupt, 6 Officer. 7 A: Oh, I'm sorry. As I had indicated as 8 with Officer Bell, there were more senior officers there 9 that it was my understanding were maintaining a log as 10 well. 11 Q: Did you have any discussion with 12 Officer Bell, who is, as you've indicated, more senior to 13 you, or any other officers about what you heard? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you know whether or not they heard 16 anything like that? Was there any discussion again, that 17 you can recall? 18 A: Once again, I don't recall. 19 Q: Once you go off duty on -- at 10:30 20 hours in the morning of the 6th of September, do you 21 recall what would have happened following that? 22 A: I would have been off-duty at 10:30 23 and just caught up on some sleep. I would have had some 24 down time. 25 Q: All right. Let me just ask you then


1 about the operation to remove the picnic tables. We know 2 from your notebooks that that would have happened at 3 approximately 9:00 in the morning; is that fair, 09:00? 4 A: 09:00 hours I have indicated I moved 5 to the beach access. I don't recall whether I walked or 6 drove, I don't recall. And then I -- the next thing I 7 have indicated is: 8 "9:45, 10-7 Forest." 9 Q: Okay. Do you have an independent 10 recollection of either seeing or assisting in the removal 11 of picnic tables from that area? 12 A: I have an independent recollection of 13 seeing picnic tables. I don't recall whether or not I 14 assisted in moving. As I have indicated before, when I 15 attended it appeared that the majority of the work had 16 already been done. 17 Q: Do you recall how many officers might 18 have been involved in that operation? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Whether any were armed, do you have 21 any recollection of that? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: I understand that you would have 24 returned to duty, Officer, at approximately 6:00 p.m. on 25 the 6th of September, that is 18:00 hours?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Is that the next notation in your 3 notebook, Officer? 4 A: It is, on the 6th of September. 5 Q: Okay. Perhaps I can ask you to flip 6 to the document at Tab 12 in the brief in front of you. 7 It's Inquiry Document 2003686. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Are you with me on that -- 10 A: Yes -- 11 Q: -- on that first page, first of all? 12 A: -- yes I have it, sir. 13 Q: The first page is a Will Say, see 14 that at the top, it's titled, Will Say of Provincial 15 Constable Steven Lorch. 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And we'll come to that in a moment, 18 Officer, but do you recognize, first of all, that Will 19 Say on the first page? 20 A: Yes, it looks familiar. 21 Q: Is that something you prepared? 22 A: It's possible. 23 Q: It continues onto the second page of 24 the brief, yes? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.


1 Q: And the third page in is what appears 2 to be a document from the Ontario Provincial Police 3 entitled, Interview Report; do you see your name on 4 there? 5 A: Yes, I do. That's my handwriting. 6 Q: That is your handwriting? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: All right. And if you go into the 9 next following page of that, it would appear to be a copy 10 of your notebook, yes? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: And it commences, at least on the 13 copy that I have, Wednesday, September 6th, 1995. And 14 I'm afraid I can't tell you what that entry -- what the 15 time entry is? 16 A: 18:00. 17 Q: All right. And looking at that, 18 together with the notes that you have, your actual 19 notebook in front of you, is that -- 20 A: It is a direct copy, sir. 21 Q: -- a true copy? 22 A: Yes. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I'm 24 going to ask that this be marked as the next exhibit, 25 please?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1690, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1690: Document Number 2003686. 4 Typed Will Say of Cst. Steven 5 Lorch and handwritten OPP 6 interview report of Steven 7 Lorch, July 30 to August 8 02,1995 and handwritten 9 notebook entries of Steven 10 Lorch, September 06,1995. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: And on the 6th September at 18:00 14 hours, Officer, can you tell us what happened? You 15 attend to the Forest Detachment, is it? 16 A: Yes, that's correct. 17 "Attended at the Forest Detachment 18 18:30." I have indicated there was a briefing. 19 Q: I'm going to ask you, again, if you 20 can tell us the nature of that briefing; who provided it 21 or any information you can assist us with? 22 A: Once again, I don't have any 23 recollection. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 Q: Carry on and tell us what happens 3 next? 4 A: At 20:30 hours I have indicated: 5 "Checked the beach in Port Franks." 6 Oh, I'm sorry -- 7 Q: Let me just back you up to the entry 8 at -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- 19:30? 11 A: Yes, I'm sorry, I skipped a line 12 there. At 19:30 I have indicated: 13 "10-8 patrol". 14 Once again, I was accompanied by Constable 15 Bell. 16 Q: And how do you know that? 17 A: I have indicated at the top of my 18 notes. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: At the beginning of my shift I was 21 10-8. I have indicated: 22 "Check the Mayor's residence." 23 I have a recollection that we were advised 24 that there were some kind of concerns over the Mayor of 25 Bosanquet, I believe it was, the Mayor's residence, so we


1 did patrols of the area. 2 Q: And the concerns about the Mayor's 3 residence were what? 4 A: I don't recall the specifics. 5 Q: All right. If I suggested to you 6 that perhaps there were some allegations that there might 7 have been threats made against the -- the Mayor; does 8 that assist you at all? 9 A: Once again, it's possible. But I -- 10 I don't have any independent recollection. 11 Q: Carry on. 12 A: 20:30 hours: 13 "Checked beach in Port Franks." 14 And my next point that I have indicated: 15 "I was advised to attend Point Delta on 16 Army Camp Road north of Highway 21." 17 Q: And we can take from that, that that 18 means Checkpoint Delta? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And aside from attending there you're 21 assigned to man that checkpoint, are you? 22 A: We -- we were advised to attend there 23 and we would be dispatched as required at the time. 24 Q: Okay. And that checkpoint was 25 located north, that is towards the lake, right, on Army


1 Camp Road -- 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: -- in the entrance of the Army Camp? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Okay. Just excuse me one (1) second. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Yeah. You can just carry on, 10 Officer. What happens following your attendance at 11 Checkpoint Delta? 12 A: Actually, if there's -- if it's 13 possible if we might take a quick break? I shouldn't 14 have had the large tea this morning? 15 Q: Absolutely. I think -- I think 16 probably now is a good time as any for our morning break, 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 19 morning break. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:16 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 11:34 a.m. 25


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed, please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: Thank you for that break, 6 Commissioner. 7 Officer Lorch, you were telling us that 8 you were at Checkpoint Delta, which, as we understand it, 9 is -- was to the north of the main entrance to the Army 10 Camp which was situated near the intersection of Highway 11 21 and Army Camp Road? 12 A: It -- it was north of 21 on Army Camp 13 Road. I'm not sure of the exact -- I can't be specific 14 of the exact location in relation to the entrance to the 15 Camp. 16 Q: All right. Fair enough. But in any 17 event, we know from your notes and from what you've told 18 us that you returned to duty at 18:00 hours on September 19 the 6th, that you attend by -- at the instruction of the 20 dispatcher to that particular checkpoint, yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Do you -- you recall who your 23 supervisor was that -- on that evening? 24 A: No, I don't recall. 25 Q: I take it your notes wouldn't give


1 you an indication to refresh your memory on that point? 2 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall. 3 Q: And in terms of some of the activity 4 that was going on on the inside of the Army Camp, we know 5 that there was -- or that there is a road that runs 6 adjacent to Army Camp Road on the inside of the Army 7 Camp, yes? 8 A: That's correct. It runs north/south. 9 Q: And can you recall whether or not you 10 would have observed any people that were either using 11 that road or -- or on -- in and around that area? 12 A: I recall that there was quite a bit 13 more activity on -- on that road -- 14 Q: Tell us about -- 15 A: -- this evening? 16 Q: Yeah, I'm sorry? 17 A: During -- during this evening there 18 was a lot more activity, a lot more vehicles -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- driving around on this evening. 21 Q: Do you have any independent 22 recollection of the vehicles that you've described 23 driving around? 24 A: There was a -- there were several 25 different vehicles, one (1) of which was a dump truck, as


1 well. 2 Q: All right. We had earlier referred 3 to a document, again in Officer Bell's handwriting, that 4 referred to a dump truck with a number of youths in the 5 back? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And is that one (1) in the same 8 trucks that you're referring to now? 9 A: It's possible. It was another dump 10 truck, I don't know if it was the exact same one. 11 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask that we put a 12 map up on the screen. This is a map that we're familiar 13 with, Officer. It's been marked as Exhibit P-40. 14 First of all, do you recognize that? 15 I'm going to suggest to you that that is 16 the Ipperwash -- it's titled, Ipperwash Military Reserve. 17 And down in the lower left-hand corner is 18 the built up area. Can you see that? 19 A: In the bottom left, yes, I see it 20 now. Yes. 21 Q: And the line that runs, oh, I'm going 22 to say north and south, and I realize that that's not 23 exactly north and south, but it runs up towards the lake, 24 we've been describing that as north. 25 That is the road that we've been talking


1 about; that is Army Camp Road, yes? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you see the area that's marked as 4 the Provincial Park, Ipperwash Provincial Park at the 5 top? 6 A: Yes, I do see it. 7 Q: All right. Can you tell us, sir, 8 where in relation to that road that you might have been 9 located? And you'll find just beside you there, there is 10 a laser pointer. 11 A: Okay. When we had been advised to 12 attend checkpoint Delta, we didn't stay right at -- 13 sorry -- 14 Q: There should be just a white button 15 on that device that you can press. 16 A: Okay. Yeah, I've got it now. 17 Q: There you go. 18 A: Okay. Checkpoint Delta, as I say, 19 I'm not sure of the exact location in that area -- 20 Q: You're indicating an area, for the 21 record, sir, on Army Camp Road just north of -- 22 A: Just north of 21, that's correct. 23 Q: Thank you. 24 A: There were approximately four (4) of 25 us that went -- went further north up the road to a


1 location approximately this -- approximately this 2 location here. 3 Q: And you're indicating approximately 4 the middle of what's marked as the Military Reserve, the 5 Army -- the Army Base? 6 A: Yes, yes. Approximately -- 7 approximately halfway between Highway 21 and the 8 Provincial Park. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know what other 10 checkpoints might have been located on that same roadway? 11 A: I'm -- no, I can't comment. I don't 12 know. 13 Q: Thank you. Other than you'd seen an 14 increase in road traffic along that road that runs 15 adjacent to Army Camp Road on the inside of the Park -- 16 pardon me, on the inside of the Army Base, do you recall 17 whether there was any interaction with any individuals? 18 A: Interaction as to -- 19 Q: Did you hear any comments being made, 20 any -- or anything else being done, for that matter? 21 A: None, none that I recall. 22 Q: Okay. I take it that you wouldn't 23 have had any interaction with any of the people in the 24 Park, either by way of hearing them or speaking with 25 them?


1 A: I don't recall any speaking. I -- 2 no, I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. Aside from this increase in 4 traffic you've mentioned a dump truck. Do you have any 5 recollection of any other vehicles in particular? 6 A: There were several other vehicles. 7 Across from where we were, as I say, that wasn't really a 8 checkpoint name, Delta was down there. There's a little 9 bit of a clearing in there and that's where the dump 10 truck was. And there was some -- several other vehicles 11 doing donuts and driving around shining lights out. And 12 there was also a bonfire in that location, as well. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing a vehicle 14 that had something like fins put on it, it had some 15 writing on the side, had you seen anything like -- 16 A: Yes, I recall -- I recall a vehicle 17 matching that description, yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I believe it had OPP written on the 20 side of it. 21 Q: All right. Could you observe any of 22 the operators of any of the vehicles that you've 23 described? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Aside from spot lights being shone --


1 where were the spotlights being shone, by the way? Would 2 that be on -- on yourself and other officers? 3 A: Yes, yes, it would have been on the 4 cruisers which we had parked on Highway 21. 5 Q: And the bonfire was located in the 6 same clearing that you've just described for us? 7 A: Yes, yes, to the east of the fence 8 line. 9 Q: Had you head, Officer Lorch, up to 10 that point, about an incident involving a civilian 11 vehicle and any of the people that were in occupation of 12 either the Base or the Park? 13 A: I recall hearing something of -- 14 involving a vehicle being damaged but I -- the specifics, 15 I don't -- I don't recall. 16 Q: As a result of that information about 17 a vehicle being damaged that you have no specific 18 recollection of, did you do anything or did you see 19 others of your colleagues do anything? 20 A: No. No. 21 Q: And in terms of the activity from the 22 previous evening, what would you say the activity was on 23 this -- at this point in time? 24 A: It was -- it was a lot more busy. 25 There were a lot more vehicles driving around. It


1 appeared -- it was -- it was a lot more busier that 2 evening. 3 Q: I understand, Officer, that you were 4 wearing a headset at some point in time during your -- 5 your tour of duty on that date. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Perhaps what I'm -- what I'll do 8 before I ask you to refer to that, I'm going to ask you 9 to take a look at your notes. And I take it you have 10 that in front of you? We've marked that as P-1690. 11 And there are entries for Wednesday, 6th 12 September. Do you see the entry at 20:30 hours? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: And you've already told us that you 15 had attended that particular checkpoint, yes? 16 A: I have indicated: 17 "20:30 checked beach Port Franks." 18 My next notation is: 19 "Advised to attend Point Delta." 20 I don't have a time beside that. 21 Q: All right. And, in fact, you have no 22 times indicated until the following page at 23:15 hours; 23 yes? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: I'm going to ask you if you could


1 just help me here, Officer, and read the entry that you 2 have following your attendance at Point Delta on Army 3 Camp Road north of Highway 21? 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: If you could just read verbatim your 6 notes please? 7 A: "Attended -- advised to attend Point 8 Delta on Army Camp Road north of 9 Highway 21. Attended with 10 approximately four (4) other units. 11 Natives driving around on their side 12 slow -- shining headlights on us, et 13 cetera. Several different cars and 14 dump truck. Natives started fire also. 15 Heard on radio that CMU [the Crowd 16 Management Unit] was going to parking 17 area. I then heard them punchout and 18 back up. Then I heard on the radio 19 someone say 'they're firing'. This was 20 -- then I heard approximately fifteen 21 (15) to twenty (20) shots fired, both 22 on the radio and with my ears. The 23 first approximately five (5) to six (6) 24 shots were of a different pitch than 25 the rest."


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yeah, just continue. 4 A: Okay. 5 "Approximately 23:10 we left area and 6 drove southbound 21 and observed a 7 vehicle pull out of Army Camp and went 8 to 21. We turned eastbound 21 with it 9 and activated lights. Plate 935 HHT 10 [that's Hotel, Hotel, Tango]. Two (2) 11 occupants. Vehicle continued to drive 12 approximately 75 to 80 kilometres per 13 hour and didn't stop. Another cruiser 14 came to assist. After approximately 2 15 kilometres advised to continue to 16 follow but no lights. Emergency lights 17 turned off. Vehicle continued and 18 pulled into a restaurant/gas -- gas 19 station on 21." 20 Q: Okay. And I'm going to ask you if 21 you could just hold there for a moment. I'm going to ask 22 you a few questions about what you've just read for us. 23 Now, first of all, you've just indicated 24 that you couldn't identify the people that were operating 25 these vehicles; yes?


1 A: I'm sorry? 2 Q: You -- you could not identify? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And I'm -- I'm going back to the 5 earlier entry that -- that you have; the vehicles that 6 you've described for us, the dump truck, the -- 7 A: Yes. I -- I don't know who was 8 operating the vehicles, no. 9 Q: All right. You, nonetheless, have 10 indicated there that it was Natives that were driving 11 back and forth, so I take it that was an assumption that 12 you would have made? 13 A: That would have been an assumption. 14 The vehicle traffic was on the east side of the fence. 15 Q: All right. Fair enough. And the 16 fire that was started you've already described it as a 17 bonfire for us and I take that to mean something 18 different than a campfire that we might sit around and -- 19 A: Yes, it -- 20 Q: -- roast marshmallows? 21 A: Yes, it was a very large -- very 22 large fire. 23 Q: And could you see the individuals who 24 started that fire? 25 A: No, I can't identify.


1 Q: All right. You nextly talk about 2 hearing over the radio certain things that are -- that 3 are happening, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That the CMU is to be deployed, that 6 they are -- and you know that they were being deployed 7 from the TOC, that is from the area along East Parkway 8 Drive where the Tactical Operations Centre was set up? 9 A: I would have understood they would -- 10 they would have been deployed from that area, yes. 11 Q: And when you hear over the radio 12 these things -- perhaps you might take a moment and tell 13 us about that radio. 14 What kind of radio are you on? Is this 15 the radio in your vehicle or...? 16 A: That -- no, it was a portable radio 17 so I could hear the dispatches when I was outside of my 18 cruiser. The headset that I was wearing is actually 19 called the Eagle headset, it rides on the outside; 20 nothing goes in your ears. 21 It's -- it's got little -- little 22 attachments that sit on your cheekbones and somehow with 23 vibrations it enables you to hear through -- I'm not -- 24 I'm not a doctor, but somehow through the orbital 25 vibrations you can hear transmissions, but nothing is in


1 your ears. It enables you to have -- to be able to hear 2 everything with your ears in addition to the radio 3 transmissions. 4 Q: Okay. So it's not like -- it's not 5 like an iPod? It's not like the headset that I might 6 wear if I'm listening to music or -- 7 A: No, sir. No, sir. 8 Q: So, carry on. So -- so you hear the 9 -- the CMU is being deployed? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: What -- what channel are you on? 12 A: I -- I don't recall. 13 Q: All right. You're familiar though 14 that the TRU, that is the -- the TRU team might operate 15 on a different frequency? 16 A: Yes, yes. We -- we can't hear the 17 TRU team. There -- there would have been a -- a specific 18 frequency set up for -- for ERT. 19 Q: Okay. And could you recognize any of 20 the voices that you were hearing? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You've described what you heard and 23 I'm going to suggest that -- that what you heard was 24 specific orders being given -- 25 A: Yes, that's correct.


1 Q: -- in the course of the Crowd 2 Management Unit either -- executing certain manoeuvres? 3 A: Yes, that's correct. 4 Q: And you'd be familiar with that from 5 your own training? 6 A: The manoeuvres, yes. 7 Q: Right. And so the punchout, the term 8 'punchout', that would be something that you would 9 recognize? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And what did you take, 12 from what you were hearing, what was going on? 13 A: I took it that the -- the Crowd 14 Management Unit had advanced onto a specific area and 15 when they yelled, "punchout," one (1) -- I'm -- I'm not 16 sure which faction of the Crowd Management Unit, but they 17 would have run out approximately 40 feet and then -- and 18 then worked -- walked backwards back in to the body of 19 the Crowd Management Unit. 20 Q: Okay. When you hear the CMU Unit or 21 CMU being deployed I take it that -- well, what 22 specifically can you recall that -- that gave you that 23 indication; if you can recall? 24 A: Gave me the indication that it was 25 the CMU that --


1 Q: That it was -- first of all that it 2 was being deployed? 3 A: I just have indicated that I heard, 4 on the radio, that the Crowd Management Unit was going to 5 the parking area. I don't recall the exact specific -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- verbatim words that I heard. 8 Q: Did you hear anything prior to 9 hearing the orders to punchout or to back up? Did you 10 hear anything to the effect ordering the CMU to stop or 11 to split or to take cover or any such thing? 12 A: No, I don't recall it. 13 Q: Yeah. You then hear what you've 14 described as -- as gunfire? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: You've indicated fifty (50) to -- 17 fifteen (15) to twenty (20) shots and that there was the 18 -- the first, approximately five (5) to six (6) shots 19 were a different pitch than the rest. Tell us about 20 that. 21 What is -- what do you recall having 22 looked at your notes? 23 A: Well, I recall hearing, approximately 24 five (5) to six (6) shots, then as -- a split second -- 25 then -- then there was a kind of a -- an other grouping


1 of shots fired; approximately another fifteen (15) -- 2 fifteen (15) shots that were fired a split second after 3 the initial five (5) or six (6) that I heard. And as I 4 indicated they -- they appeared to be of a different 5 pitch. They just sounded to be of -- didn't see -- 6 appear to be from the same weapon as the other ones that 7 -- that followed. 8 Q: All right. And given your 9 experience, Officer, you've told us that you recognized 10 automatic weapon fire; did this appear to you to be 11 automatic weapon fire? 12 A: No, it did not. 13 Q: Could you determine or did you come 14 to any conclusions as to what the calibre of weapon might 15 have been? 16 A: I can't -- I can't say what that 17 might have been. 18 Q: Whether a long gun or sidearm -- a 19 handgun that is? 20 A: I -- I cannot say. 21 Q: You hear the words, "their firing". 22 Now, first of all, just before we move on, when you hear 23 this are you listening to this gunfire over the Eagle 24 headset that you've described or -- 25 A: I can hear -- I can hear it both.


1 The microphone is keyed by some officer down at the 2 scene. When I hear him say, "they're firing", I can -- I 3 can -- I can hear gunshots over my radio from when he's 4 transmitting, as well I can hear it just with my bare 5 ears because we were, as I had indicated, we're about 6 halfway to the Park. 7 So I could actually hear the shots as 8 well. It wasn't just over the ear -- over the headphone, 9 it was also with my ears, as well. 10 Q: And if it's suggested to you, sir 11 that you're far enough away that there might be a delay 12 in terms of the gunshots that you hear with your plain 13 ears? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Is -- you'd agree with that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: The gunfire that you hear over your 18 Eagle headset, would that be simultaneous do you think 19 with the gunfire that's actually occurring? Do you know 20 what I mean? I mean you're far enough away, and you know 21 how -- 22 A: Yes, I -- I can't say what the -- 23 what the difference in lag would be with the sound and -- 24 I don't know. 25 Q: When you hear, "they're firing", I


1 take it that's something that you hear over the radio? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know whose speaking? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: And what do you determine is going 6 on? 7 A: I determine what's going on is the -- 8 is that one (1) of the officers had just said that 9 "they're firing" and then I heard all those gunshots. I 10 didn't know what -- what was actually going on. It's 11 just -- you hear the gunshots, you don't really know 12 what's going on. It's -- it was very troubling. 13 Q: I take it from that -- that when they 14 say, when you hear they're firing they don't describe 15 whose doing the firing? 16 A: No, no. 17 Q: As a result of what you hear, I take 18 it you then get different instructions to move your 19 position as you've indicated? 20 A: Yes, a short time after that -- 21 Q: You wouldn't have moved on your own? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You would have did so as a result of 24 being instructed to do so? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: As you're moving to the position 6 then; that is you're moving I take it southbound, that is 7 towards Highway 21? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And what do you see, if anything, 10 going on inside the Army Camp now? 11 A: I could observe there were two (2) 12 vehicles that were further north down towards the 13 Provincial Park area, towards the direction of where the 14 gunfire was coming from. And I could see these... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Yes, just continue if you would and 19 we'll -- we'll get a map up in a moment. 20 A: Okay -- I -- I could see at a further 21 north direction, down towards the location of the 22 shooting scene -- okay, as I had indicated we were 23 approximately across from this location here on 21. 24 Q: On Army Camp Road? 25 A: I'm sorry on Army Camp Road, that's


1 correct. I'm sorry. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And if you could move it -- move the 4 map down a little bit, scroll down please. 5 Okay. I could see there were two (2) 6 vehicles that were -- had been milling around somewhere 7 in this area, I'm not sure, but they began heading in a - 8 - in a southern direction down along the road that 9 parallels the fence. 10 Q: All right. Now, is this any of the 11 vehicles that you've described for us; one (1) being what 12 we've come to know and described as the OPP Who car or 13 the -- or the dump truck? 14 A: No, it was neither one of those 15 vehicles. 16 Q: All right. Can you describe these 17 vehicles for us? 18 A: I can't really describe. It was 19 dark. I was just going by headlights at the time. 20 Q: All right. Continue. 21 A: Okay. I could observe these vehicles 22 heading southbound almost at the same time when we were - 23 - we were advised to go south down to checkpoint Delta. 24 Being the passenger in the vehicle I could -- I kept 25 observations on these vehicles. They continued down that


1 side of the fence and continued -- and continued down. 2 Almost simultaneously when we attended 3 down by the location of the Army Camp there these 4 vehicles had passed through and attended at the gate 5 area. 6 Q: All right. So do I take it from that 7 that -- that you cannot provide us with a description of 8 these vehicles; make, model, colour, anything like that? 9 A: I -- I -- I don't recall. 10 Q: All right. Carry on. 11 A: We could -- I could see that -- 12 Checkpoint Delta. I'm not sure of the exact location, I 13 believe it to be a little bit further south of the 14 entrance to the Park. 15 Q: To the -- to the Army Camp? 16 A: I'm sorry, yes, to the Army Camp. 17 I'm sorry. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: A little bit further to the south -- 20 Q: Was it still on Army Camp Road in 21 your recollection? 22 A: Yes, that's correct, that's correct. 23 On almost -- almost Army Camp Road and 21. It was right 24 -- right near the -- the intersection. There was a 25 couple of cruisers that were there. These two (2)


1 vehicles came out. The first vehicle came out and 2 attended over -- so it was heading in a south -- southern 3 direction and it headed as if it was going to go west. 4 Now, if -- 5 Q: Towards Kettle Point? 6 A: That's correct, that's correct. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: I recall the vehicle either slowing 9 or -- I recall that the officers at that checkpoint were 10 dealing with that vehicle. At the same time the second 11 vehicle had left almost right -- right behind the first 12 vehicle and it came up and drove around where the 13 vehicles were and turned left on 21 Highway heading in a 14 eastern direction. 15 Q: And this is the vehicle that you 16 indicate that you then followed? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. At what point in time, 19 Officer, did you activate your lights as you have 20 indicated there? 21 A: I have indicated at approximately 22 23:10 we left the area; the amount of time that it would 23 have taken to drive that distance. We activated the 24 emergency lights as soon as we went around the corner and 25 got behind the vehicle.


1 Q: All right. When you say, "behind the 2 vehicle"; how far behind are you? 3 A: Approximately 40 metres, 30 metres. 4 Q: All right. And do you have an 5 assessment -- by this point in time as you're following 6 30 or 40 metres behind this vehicle what kind of vehicle; 7 again, make, model, colour? 8 A: It was a -- it was a darker coloured 9 vehicle. Once again, it's -- it's dark. I have 10 indicated a license plate number. I also noted that 11 there were two (2) peop -- two (2) occupants of the 12 vehicle that I could see. 13 Q: All right. And how far did you 14 follow this vehicle with your lights activated as you've 15 said? 16 A: It would have been -- we would have 17 called in the -- the pursuit. We followed it for -- in 18 my notes I have approximately 2 kilometres, but it's my 19 recollection that the distance was possibly from the 20 beginning location at Army Camp Road to the final 21 location at the gas bar, approximately half the distance, 22 with our lights activated. 23 Q: All right. And I take it this 24 vehicle did not stop? 25 A: No, it did not.


1 Q: All right. Another police vehicle 2 comes, as you've indicated, to assist in this, I'm going 3 to call it, a slow speed chase? 4 A: The vehicle was driving, I have 5 indicated, 75 to 80 kilometres an hour. It was doing the 6 speed limit, sir. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And is it your -- is it your 12 testimony, sir, that the occupants would have observed 13 your lights being activated and ought to have known to 14 pull over? 15 A: Yes, I believe they ought to have 16 known. 17 Q: In any event, they continue on. And 18 it would seem that you had had some information here. 19 You indicated approximately 2 kilometres to continue to 20 follow, but no lights -- 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: -- emergency lights turned off, and 23 why is that? 24 A: Constable Bell had called in our 25 pursuit; that the vehicle was not stopping. And we were


1 advised to continue following the vehicle but not -- to 2 turn out the lights -- the emergency lighting. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it that having 4 turned off your emergency lights you would have no 5 expectation that they would stop? 6 A: No. They hadn't stopped at that 7 point, no. 8 Q: All right. Aside from determining 9 that there were two (2) occupants in this vehicle, did 10 you make any determinations as to gender? 11 A: No, none. I could just see the 12 outline of two (2) heads in the front seats. 13 Q: And they pull into this gas station 14 you've indicated? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Okay. And how far behind you are -- 17 are you at this point and -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- when they pull into the gas 20 station? 21 A: Once again, approximately 30 -- 30 22 metres. 23 Q: Are you the operator of the vehicle 24 you're in? 25 A: I'm the passenger in the vehicle?


1 Q: You're the passenger? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I take it you would have arrived at 4 the location when this vehicle stopped at the gas 5 station? 6 A: A few -- a split second after it 7 stopped, yes. We were right behind it. 8 Q: All right. What happens? 9 A: The vehicle pulls in on an angle 10 towards the building. The building is on the north side 11 of the -- the north side of the road. It pulled in on a 12 bit of an angle towards the -- towards the building and 13 came to a stop. 14 On the side of the building, on the west 15 wall of the building, I observed a phone, there was a 16 phone attachment on the side of the building, a pay 17 phone. The vehicle was, like, kind of angled towards the 18 -- towards the phone area, towards the side of the wall 19 of the building. 20 Constable Bell pulled our vehicle in on an 21 angle off of the driver's door of the -- of the vehicle 22 and the second OPP cruiser pulled in on an angle towards 23 the driver's side of that vehicle. 24 Q: I take it your headlights would be 25 and -- and the lights of the accompanying vehicle would


1 be illuminating the vehicle that was stopped? 2 A: That's -- that's correct. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And what do you -- what do you see? 6 A: I see, as we're -- as we're coming to 7 a stop I see the pass -- or I'm sorry, the driver of the 8 vehicle hopped out of the vehicle and began running in a 9 northern direction. 10 At -- this is at the same time as we're 11 coming to a stop. Being the passenger of the vehicle I 12 got out of the cruiser and I went around to the right, to 13 the front of the vehicle, to try to -- try to catch up to 14 the driver. 15 At this time I'm -- I'm issuing the police 16 challenge to the -- to the driver. I am advising, 17 "Police, don't move"; advising verbally that we are 18 police officers to stand still and quit running away. 19 Q: What do you have in your hands if 20 anything? 21 A: I have in my hands at that time the 22 rifle that I have referred to earlier. 23 Q: This is the mini Ruger .223 you've 24 told us -- 25 A: That --


1 Q: -- about earlier? 2 A: -- that's correct. 3 Q: All right. And what are you doing 4 with this weapon? 5 A: I am -- I am holding it in a 6 direction, a ready direction towards the -- towards the 7 driver. 8 Q: Okay. Okay. And what happens, 9 Officer? 10 A: I could observe that the -- I could 11 observe that the driver stopped at the pay phone that was 12 located on the side of the road, or on the side of the 13 building, at which time I ended up -- because I was 14 heading in a northern direction around the front of -- of 15 her vehicle, I then went over to -- for a more tactically 16 location further to the west behind the -- the phone. 17 Q: You wouldn't have been behind gas 18 pumps by any chance would you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: There are gas pumps in that area? Do 21 you recall seeing those? 22 A: There was -- I have indicated that it 23 is a gas bar; that's correct. 24 Q: Do you recall seeing gas pumps there? 25 A: I -- I don't really -- I don't recall


1 at that time, no. 2 Q: You moved to a position that you 3 believed to be tactically safer, right? 4 A: Yes, yes. 5 Q: And what do you do? 6 A: I continued to issue the police 7 challenge to this -- to the driver who was at the pay 8 phone. 9 Q: What are you -- what are you saying 10 as part of this police challenge? 11 A: "Police, don't move." I'm -- I'm 12 continually reiterating that we are the police and to 13 comply with us and, Show us -- show us your hands, stop 14 moving, put down the phone; this type of conversation. 15 Q: All of those comments? 16 A: I'm sorry? 17 Q: All of those comments? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And you mentioned that 20 there was another police vehicle that had pulled in; do 21 you recall seeing other officers? 22 A: I remember seeing two (2) officers, 23 that's correct; two (2) other ERT members. 24 Q: Do you know who -- did you know who 25 they were at that moment?


1 A: At that time, no, I did not. 2 Q: All right. What were they doing? 3 A: They had pulled up onto the driver's 4 side. One (1) of those officers had come to assist me in 5 dealing with the driver and I can't comment on what the 6 other officer was doing. 7 Q: Okay. All right. What happens? 8 A: Continue issuing -- issuing the 9 police challenge. I have a conversation with the driver. 10 She advises that -- 11 Q: If you could -- just let me interrupt 12 you, if I may, Officer -- 13 A: Okay. I'm sorry. 14 Q: -- you've indicated "she"; I take it 15 by this point you've made a determination that this is a 16 female? 17 A: It was some time, the driver had 18 their back to us. She was wearing a very -- the driver 19 was wearing a very bulky green military style jacket. We 20 are issued these type of jackets and I know for a fact, I 21 mean there's all sorts of pockets and locations and areas 22 to hide - hide items in. 23 Q: Camouflage? 24 A: No, it was just a -- just a normal, 25 drab olive green colour. The driver also had on a hat.


1 It was sometime before -- from conversing with -- until I 2 actually was aware that it actually was a female. 3 Q: Okay. When you became aware it was a 4 female, what, if anything, did you do differently? 5 A: I did nothing differently, I -- 6 Q: All right. Carry on. 7 A: She had indicated that she was 8 phoning for an ambulance, at which point I recall hearing 9 over the transmissions that an ambulance had been 10 summonsed. I advised her that an ambulance had been 11 called and to step away from the phone. 12 This whole time, her back is to us. We 13 cannot see anything in front with her hands, other than 14 the one (1) hand for the phone. We're advising her to 15 step away from the phone. 16 Q: You -- 17 A: I told her -- I advised her that an 18 ambulance had been called and this didn't -- this didn't 19 stop her actions at the payphone. 20 Q: Could you see whether or not she was 21 connected to anybody on the other end? 22 A: I couldn't see. She had the phone in 23 her hand, the receiver part in her hand. 24 Q: Do you recall her saying anything to 25 the effect, Get that gun out of my face; any such thing?


1 A: I don't recall that, no. 2 Q: All right. Did you or the other 3 officers that were in attendance have your weapons 4 trained on her? I mean you've indicated that you had it 5 in her general direction. 6 A: I -- yes, I had -- I had my rifle 7 trained in the direction of the -- of the phone booth of 8 the driver area. I can't comment on the other officer. 9 Q: All right. She continues to stay on 10 the phone, and what happens? 11 A: This goes on for some time. 12 Q: I got to ask you: How long is some 13 time? 14 A: It felt like possibly two (2) 15 minutes. Possibly two (2) minutes; a little bit more. 16 Two (2) to three (3) minutes, perhaps. Quite some time. 17 Issued -- trying to advise her that an ambulance had been 18 called and to comply with us and show us her hands and 19 step back from the phone. This went on for some time. 20 Eventually, the other officer, who I 21 didn't know his name at the time, from the No. 1 District 22 ERT Team, he approached the driver from the left; so when 23 I'm -- from my left, he is over to my left. 24 So he approached the driver up towards the 25 phone on the side of the wall. It would have been to her


1 left, as well. And when he -- when he got up to her, he 2 tried to gain control of her left -- left arm. 3 Q: Is this the -- the arm or the hand 4 that she had the phone in? 5 A: No, I believe it -- I believe it to 6 be the opposite. 7 Q: Right, carry on. 8 A: I could observe that this officer was 9 struggling with her; she was putting up a fight, 10 resisting. She was turning towards him and flailing 11 around with her arms. And I went up to assist him. 12 As I -- as I approached, I advised the 13 driver that she was under arrest for failing to stop for 14 Police. I was trying to advise her why we were taking 15 control of her. She continued to struggle. 16 I tried -- I assisted trying to -- we 17 controlled the arms but her legs were flailing around as 18 well. And it's been my experience in the past, when you 19 have a resistant person, that the best place to actually 20 control them is actually down on the ground, because it 21 takes away quite a bit of the mobility of the individual. 22 I would have told her that you're going to 23 be lowered to the ground. And at no time did we ever 24 take out hands off of her. She would have been assisted 25 down to the ground where we would have been able to


1 maintain control of her more easily. 2 Q: Once you got control of her more 3 easily on the ground, as you've put it, I understand that 4 she was then handcuffed? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. Behind her back or in 7 front? 8 A: I don't recall, the other officer -- 9 the other officer was dealing -- was dealing with 10 restraining her. 11 Q: And the other officer, do you know 12 who that -- that was by this point? 13 A: Constable Gransden. At this time, 14 once again, while she was down, Constable Gransden was 15 dealing with her. I was advising her again what I had 16 said at the pay phone, that she was under arrest for 17 failing to stop for police. 18 She continued to resist all through this 19 entire -- entire time. 20 Q: All right. When she's on the ground 21 and -- and restrained, do you know whether or not she was 22 searched? 23 A: I would have done a quick cursory 24 search of -- of the parka. 25 Q: And I --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it from your notes that 3 nothing was found in terms of weapons? 4 A: No. 5 Q: What about a purse or anything? Did 6 you see anything like that? 7 A: No, I don't recall. 8 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not she 9 had glasses on? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: You mentioned that there were two (2) 12 passengers in the vehicle that you could observe as you 13 were following this vehicle? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Where's the other passenger? 16 A: The other passenger I recall -- I 17 recall -- I recall at some point I became familiar that 18 it was an elderly lady in the passenger seat. The other 19 officers were dealing with her. 20 After -- after the driver had been 21 restrained I became aware that the passenger was sitting 22 in the passenger seat, the passenger door was open to the 23 vehicle and she was sitting with her feet on the outside 24 of the vehicle, sitting -- sitting in the vehicle. 25 Q: Did you or any other officers, to


1 your knowledge, have her exit the vehicle? 2 A: I -- I don't recall. 3 Q: Or put her arms over her head or knee 4 in the gravel? 5 A: I -- I was busy dealing with the -- 6 the driver. 7 Q: All right. In terms of threat 8 assessment, did you make any assessments as between these 9 two (2) individuals? 10 A: The two (2) individuals, the threat 11 assessment was, we've -- they're coming from the location 12 of a -- of a shooting. There's been guns involved. The 13 vehicle did not stop. Just stuff that keeps heightening 14 -- heightening your awareness. 15 And then when we get there she -- the 16 driver continues to be non-compliant at the phone. We 17 cannot see because of the clothing that she's wearing. 18 It was a -- the threat assessment was 19 rather high at the time. 20 Q: And we take it from your testimony, 21 from what you observed leaving the area, that is, from 22 the Park, coming through the Army Camp, exiting the Army 23 Camp, heading down Highway 21, that it is your belief 24 that that vehicle was involved in the shooting that you 25 had heard earlier?


1 A: It was unknown. It came from -- it 2 came from the general vicinity. 3 Q: But did you make that assessment, 4 that that was one and the same vehicle or that it was 5 involved in the -- 6 A: I was -- I was sure -- 7 Q: -- gunfire you'd heard earlier? 8 A: I -- I wasn't sure at the time. I 9 was sure that the vehicle had come from that -- from that 10 area and that was part of the reasoning for wanting to 11 stop it, to try to identify and -- identify the vehicle. 12 Q: Now, do you know whether or not, sir, 13 that this vehicle that you had followed and described for 14 us, whether it came through the checkpoint that you 15 earlier told us was at -- around the area of Army Camp 16 Road and Highway 21? 17 A: When it left, my recollection is that 18 the first vehicle that left the officers who were at that 19 checkpoint were dealing with that vehicle -- 20 Q: That vehicle was stopped? I'm sorry 21 to interrupt. 22 A: I don't -- I'm aware that the other 23 officers were dealing with that vehicle. I don't know 24 whether it was slowing or stopped, I'm not sure. But I - 25 - I -- I remember that those officers were dealing with


1 that vehicle. At that point -- 2 Q: And can you -- 3 A: At that -- I'm sorry. At that point 4 the second vehicle, that was where my attention was 5 drawn. 6 Q: And I appreciate your attention is on 7 the vehicle that you ultimately ended up following. But 8 do you have any -- any recollection of the first vehicle 9 being actually stopped? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Okay. And you say it was slowing, 12 can you tell us whether or not it was slowing on Highway 13 21 or before the intersection on Army Camp -- 14 A: I -- I -- I can't say. I don't 15 recall. 16 Q: All right. Did you have any 17 expectation that the vehicle that you ultimately followed 18 should have stopped at the checkpoint, first of all? 19 A: There were -- there were vehicles. I 20 -- I remember that the vehicle did not stop, it just went 21 past the checkpoint and turned east on Highway 21. 22 Q: All right. Was there anything that 23 would have indicated to any vehicle coming through there 24 that they should stop at the checkpoint? 25 A: I don't recall how the checkpoint was


1 set up at that time. 2 Q: You didn't have any trouble getting 3 through it? 4 A: No. No. 5 Q: In the sense I mean that it wasn't 6 blocking traffic? 7 A: No. It wasn't -- it wasn't a total 8 blockade across the road, no. 9 Q: Neither of these vehicles then ran 10 through any type of a barricade or pushed anything aside 11 in order to -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- make their way as you've described 14 it for us? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. Pardon one (1) second. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And just lastly on that -- on that 21 point, Officer Lorch, did you see any officers at that 22 checkpoint or in that area attempting to wave down or 23 otherwise motion for either of those vehicles to stop? 24 A: I -- once again, I have a 25 recollection that the officers there were dealing with


1 the first vehicle; they weren't prepared to deal with 2 two (2) simultaneous vehicles. 3 Q: All right. And you've indicated that 4 at some point in time the information or the advice that 5 you received was to turn off or deactivate the lights? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And did you do that or did Officer 8 Bell do that? 9 A: I don't -- who actually turned off 10 the lights in the -- physically turned off the lights, I 11 -- I don't recall. 12 Q: And the vehicle that was assisting, 13 you've indicated another police vehicle came -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- to assist. Do you have any 16 recollection whether their lights were on? 17 A: I -- 18 Q: I take it they're behind you? 19 A: Yes, I -- I don't recall. 20 Q: Whether at any time? 21 A: No, I don't recall. 22 Q: As you leave your vehicle, 23 approaching the vehicle that's now stopped, the person 24 you've indicated sort of rushed or ran, I don't recall 25 your words exactly, towards the phone booth, yes?


1 A: Yes, moved towards -- towards the 2 phone; that's correct. 3 Q: And I take it that you would have -- 4 and from what you've described we can take that as -- as 5 a high-risk takedown? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the reason for that, as -- as 8 you've just explained, it was your assessment that that 9 vehicle had come from the vicinity of the shooting you 10 had heard earlier? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. Sir, you've indicated 13 that once you determined, pardon me, the person at the 14 phone booth as a female, you didn't do anything 15 differently? 16 A: No, not -- not whatsoever. I might 17 indicate, sir, that it's not a phone booth, per se, the 18 phone is mounted on the side of the wall, has a little 19 bit of an overhang. It's not a full enclosed booth. 20 Q: All right. Thank you. And your 21 objective in terms of the police challenge that you've 22 told us about, the approaching of this individual, what 23 was that for? 24 A: It's part and parcel with the high- 25 risk takedown. The -- the driver -- trying to get the


1 driver to comply. 2 Q: And after she's telling you that, I'm 3 just calling an -- or I'm calling an ambulance, words to 4 that effect -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- you tell her that an ambulance has 7 been called? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: She continues on the phone? 10 A: Yes, that's correct. 11 Q: Does she turn towards you at that 12 point? Can you see whether or not she has anything in 13 her hands? 14 A: Once again -- once again, when she's 15 turning she's just turning her head towards us. We 16 cannot see anything in front of -- in front of her body. 17 Q: All right. When Officer Gransden had 18 her by the arm and was attempting -- her left hand and 19 was attempting to gain control of her, and at the point 20 where you assist him in putting her on the ground -- 21 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 22 Q: -- did she complain to you at any 23 point in time, to your recollection, about being injured? 24 A: No, she did not complain. 25 Q: Or having recent surgery?


1 A: I did not -- I did not hear 2 anything -- 3 Q: Do you recall -- I'm sorry? 4 A: Sorry. No, I did not hear anything 5 to that effect. 6 Q: Do you recall the passenger, that 7 you've described as the elderly passenger, suggest 8 anything to that effect? 9 A: No, the only conversation I had with 10 the elderly passenger was after -- afterwards when I went 11 over and spoke with her. That was the first 12 conversation, the first time I ever heard he speak. 13 Q: Okay. Tell us about that. So you go 14 over and speak to the -- to the elderly passenger, what 15 do you learn? What's -- what -- what's her demeanour, 16 first of all? 17 A: She's very calm, very -- she was very 18 -- very calm. I spoke with her. She verbally identified 19 herself as Melva George and gave me a date of birth. 20 Other officers assisted with searching the vehicle. 21 Q: Aside from giving her -- pardon me, 22 aside from giving her the -- or -- or speaking to her and 23 being calm, did you ask her about the vehicle, about what 24 they were carrying? You were obviously concerned that 25 this vehicle had attended from a shooting.


1 A: Hmm hmm. The -- the officers were 2 checking the vehicle. I -- as a courtesy I asked -- 3 asked her if it would be all right if we searched the 4 vehicle. And she said, Yes. 5 Q: Were they -- you say the officers 6 were searching, I take it they were already in the 7 process of searching the vehicle when you inquired? 8 A: I've indicated that I went to assist 9 searching the vehicle. I don't recall the actual actions 10 of the other officers. 11 Q: And the results of this search of the 12 vehicle? 13 A: Nothing was located. 14 Q: By the time you're searching the 15 vehicle, can we take it that the driver who had been at 16 the phone and that you assisted in taking control of, was 17 now under control? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And where was she? 20 A: She was placed in the rear of a 21 cruiser, I'm not sure whose cruiser it was. 22 Q: How many cruisers were there? 23 A: Two (2) that I recall. 24 Q: Yours? 25 A: Yes, mine and Constable Gransdens'.


1 Q: All right. And you then -- did you 2 participate in the search of the vehicle? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: Where did you look? 5 A: I have indicated in my notes that I 6 asked her -- she gave permission to check the trunk. I 7 have indicated, Okay. I don't have recollection of 8 actual what areas I did search. 9 Q: All right. Would you say that you 10 were at a heightened state of awareness as you're pulling 11 up? This is a high risk takedown? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Your adrenalin would be rushing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Presumably you want to carry out your 16 training? You're trained for these things? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And if the suggestion is made to you 19 that you treated this individual -- you or the other 20 officers, roughly, do you have any comment on that? 21 A: I did not -- no, we did not treat her 22 -- as we were dealing with her, we issued many commands, 23 eventually we finally had to go and take control of her. 24 I don't believe we dealt with her in a rough manner at 25 all.


1 Q: Okay. At some point in time, would 2 you agree with me that you would have begun to settle 3 down? And I don't mean -- I don't mean to suggest that 4 you were excited or hysterical or out of control prior to 5 that, but at least the threat level, having assessed as 6 being not present, you would have -- 7 A: That's correct. Once everything had 8 been contained, yes, it -- there was a point when you can 9 sit back and reflect a little bit. 10 Q: Do you recall the driver, whom you 11 assisted in taking control of, saying any words to the 12 effect, Is this how you treat old ladies, or grey-haired 13 old ladies, any words to that effect? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: What did you do in relation to the 19 pay phone? 20 A: Once the driver was take care of, 21 restrained there at the cruiser, after I spoke with Mrs. 22 George I looked at the payphone and I thought that -- I 23 don't know what kind of communication might be been 24 broadcast over this, so I thought that -- I phoned the 25 operator to see if possibly there might be a tape -- a


1 tape recording, because I don't know what was -- what was 2 mentioned. I couldn't hear what she was saying on the 3 phone. Possibly it might be important down the road. 4 Q: Okay. And what did you find out? 5 A: I went to the pay phone, I phoned the 6 operator and I was put over to a Sergeant Symington of 7 Sarnia 911 Dispatch. I just advised him that we had an 8 incident and there was a phone call made from this pay 9 phone a short time ago, and if there is a tape, possibly 10 if it could be set aside. 11 Q: Okay. And you were told that it 12 would be set aside? 13 A: Yes, I was -- I was advised that a -- 14 a tape would be set aside, yes. 15 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask you to turn 16 to the document that's at Tab 11, the book of documents 17 in front of you, Officer. It's been marked as Exhibit P- 18 1254. You'll see at the top of that it is from the 19 Chatham Communication Centre logger tape. It's dated 20 September 6th, of '95 at 23:14 hours. 21 And do you see your name just above that, 22 Steve Lorch, Alpha, Lima 2, prisoner van. 23 A: I see my name listed -- it says: 24 "Delta 2411, Constable Steve Lorch." 25 "Prisoner van", it has Dennis LeBlanc


1 indicated, sir. 2 Q: First of all, that's your -- that was 3 your call sign? 4 A: I don't recall what my call sign was 5 that evening. 6 Q: You've had a chance to listen to this 7 tape though, I understand? 8 A: I have heard it, yes. 9 Q: You've identified your voice as being 10 Delta 2411? 11 A: I -- I identify my voice in 12 conversation from the tape. But I -- I can't say as 13 being Delta 2411. 14 Q: Let me just take you then down that 15 document, perhaps to the middle of the page. 16 You see where it says: 17 "DELTA 2411: 10-4 license 935 HHT, 18 Ontario marker"? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: That's the license plate that you 21 have indicated -- the tag number that you've indicated in 22 your notes; that's consistent -- 23 A: That's correct. Yes. 24 Q: And then you see the entry right 25 following that:


1 "LIMA 2: That's 10-4. Continue to 2 follow. Do not light up"? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, that would seem to suggest that 5 there weren't any lights on? 6 A: I can't comment on the terminology 7 that that person -- 8 Q: Just follow -- just follow along -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- and look at the next entry. You 11 see where it says: 12 "DELTA 2411: 10-4..." 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: "... we've deactivated our lights and 15 will continue to follow." 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. So at that point in time, 18 at least it would seem to indicate, that whoever 2411 is, 19 the lights were deactivated? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Yes. All right. And that's 22 consistent with what you've told us? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if we just turn over to the next 25 page of that, Officer, and I don't intend to go too


1 further with this particular document, you see "DELTA 2 2411: 10-4", and I'm looking now at the third line: 3 "We have 10-92 female." 4 10-92 is? 5 A: Is a prisoner. 6 Q: "Do you have a wagon there for 7 support..." 8 Pardon me, 9 "...for transport to Forest? 10 LIMA 2: You're at Alpha position? 11 DELTA 2411: Negative. We're 12 involved in a pursuit. Vehicle on 21 13 Highway. Apprehended the driver. 14 We're going to bring her back." 15 You see that? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: And then just beyond that, again, the 18 next entry for 2411: 19 "10-4. We also have an elderly 20 passenger female. Do you want her in 21 Forest as well. LIMA 1: Is she -- is 22 she in custody? 23 DELTA 2411: Negative." 24 Now, does that assist you at all, Officer, 25 in terms of determining whether or not, firstly, that's


1 your voice? 2 A: That -- I don't recall saying that. 3 I -- I can't say if that's my voice from reading it, no. 4 Q: Nonetheless, consistent -- 5 A: I was -- I was -- 6 Q: -- your -- 7 A: I was partnered with Constable Bell 8 that evening. He was also -- he would have been the 9 same call sign as myself. 10 Q: All right. There's nothing in here 11 that is inconsistent with what you recall though; is that 12 fair? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Is that right? 15 A: Yes, that's -- yes. 16 Q: And if I take you just to the last 17 page of that document, page 4 of 4, of P-1254. Okay, and 18 it would seem that you were involved then in transferring 19 the female prisoner that you had -- pardon me, that 20 Officer Gransden had? 21 A: I -- I had no -- no involvement with 22 that transport at all. 23 Q: All right. I'm sorry, just -- if I 24 could just take a moment? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: Did you have any involvement in 5 transferring the elderly passenger of that vehicle? 6 A: I did not transfer -- transport any - 7 - any of the parties. 8 Q: If I can ask you just then to turn 9 nextly to the document at Tab 13. It's been marked as 10 Exhibit P-48. This is a 911 call. 11 A: Okay. I have it now. 12 Q: Do you have that? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: And I'm going to ask you just to turn 15 to the -- first of all, you've had a chance to -- to take 16 a look at this; have you? 17 A: I -- I have heard it. Yes. 18 Q: You've heard the tape as well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it is a discussion as between the 21 officer and -- and it's indicated there, an ambulance 22 operator? 23 A: I'm -- 24 Q: And I -- I appreciate you wouldn't 25 have been privy to --


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- to the conversation but having 3 heard it you don't have any reason to disagree that that 4 is a conversation as -- as -- 5 A: Between -- I don't -- I don't know 6 what's actually on the 911 tape but parts are recorded 7 but I have no dispute that this was on the tape. 8 Q: All right. Turn to the middle of the 9 second page. You see where it says: 10 "OPERATOR: Hello, are you there?" 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: "AMBULANCE: I'm here, ma'am. 13 OPERATOR: No, that's me; it's Terry. 14 AMBULANCE: Who's Terry? 15 OPERATOR: From the police." 16 Are you with me? 17 A: Yes, I see that, sir. 18 Q: And if you go right down to the 19 bottom of the page it says: 20 "Yeah, we got two (2) ambulance on -- 21 down there." 22 If you flip over to the next page. Do you 23 see the caller? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: In the background:


1 "Don't make a move, lady. 2 I'm just talking on the phone. Get the 3 gun out of here." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes, I do. 6 Q: You recall hearing that on the actual 7 tape? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: And you -- you recall identifying 10 your voice? 11 A: That's my voice saying, Don't make a 12 move, lady. 13 Q: All right. Thank you. You see if 14 you go down just to the middle of that page: 15 "OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address 16 there?" 17 And you hear in the background: 18 "Get on the ground." 19 You've identified that as being your voice 20 as well? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Do you know what... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: I -- I'm sorry, just one (1) moment. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Commissioner, I understand from Mr. 6 Millar that while the audio has been marked this 7 particular transcript has not been and perhaps we ought 8 to mark that as either a sub-exhibit of P-48 or perhaps 9 even a fresh exhibit number. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1691, for the 11 transcript. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1691: Document Number 2000592. 14 Transcript of tape recorded 15 message 911 call made by 16 Marcia Simon, September 17 06,1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: All right. And I thank Mr. Millar 21 for pointing that out. 22 Did you have any involvement, Officer, 23 with the person that you assisted in placing under arrest 24 and taking control of in providing either rights to 25 counsel or any of the other attendant rights of the


1 persons -- 2 A: Yes, yes, I did. After -- after I 3 had spoken with Mrs. George and also obtained this 911 or 4 phoned and spoke with Sergeant Symington. At 23:30 5 hours I went over to the cruiser that the driver was in 6 the back of and I read her her rights to counsel and she 7 requested that I read it again and I did. 8 Q: Okay. And you say -- just from your 9 comment I take it you would have read from a card? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Yeah. So you read it again and what 12 happens? 13 A: She advised -- she asked if I would 14 read it again and I complied. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: She advised that she wanted to call a 17 lawyer. I advised her that she could call one (1) at the 18 detachment because there was no way that we could -- 19 there was no way to call -- call from there to afford 20 privacy for a communication with a lawyer at that 21 location and time. 22 Q: When you provided these rights to 23 counsel and such I take it you would have been in the 24 vehicle that she was put in? 25 A: I would have been outside the vehicle


1 talking -- talking to her, yes. 2 Q: And the elderly passenger? 3 A: The elderly passenger at this time? 4 I believe she was still over at -- at her vehicle. 5 Q: Did you have any involvement with her 6 beyond what you've already told us about having a 7 conversation and obtaining as a matter of courtesy I 8 think you put it, her consent to search the vehicle? 9 A: Yes, afterwards I -- I recall that 10 she want -- that it was actually her daughter. Actually 11 I obtained the name of the driver from Mrs. George as 12 well. She advised that she -- it was my understanding 13 she would like to go with -- with her daughter the driver 14 wherever she was being taken. 15 Q: And? 16 A: And it -- I believe she was placed in 17 the -- placed with her daughter to be offered a ride as 18 well. 19 At this time I have indicated I also took 20 the keys to the vehicle and I secured the vehicle. And 21 at that time I decided that there was no reason for the 22 vehicle to be towed. We left the vehicle. I explained 23 that and I don't recall who I turned the keys over to, 24 whether the escorting officer or Mrs. George. 25 But, the keys were provided and they were


1 advised where -- the vehicle would be left where it was, 2 in lieu of a tow. 3 Q: All right. And I take it you had no 4 further involvement with those individuals as you've told 5 us? 6 A: No, that was it from that point. 7 Q: You have no recollection of any of 8 the driver's personal belongings being strewn around the 9 lot where she was put under arrest, where you assisted in 10 taking control of her? 11 A: No, not that I recall. 12 Q: After you left that scene, Officer, 13 what do you do? 14 A: The next indication that I have 15 listed is at 23:45, 10-8 patrol advised to assist with a 16 checkpoint at Outer Drive and 21 Highway. 17 We -- at 23:50 attended that location, 18 once again partnered with Constable Bell. We met with 19 Constables Grigg and Wells and Hall and Horzempa. I have 20 indicated we set up a road closure at Outer Drive and 21. 21 I have indicated we checked a few 22 vehicles. And I've indicated that I observed a vehicle 23 on the Base on the CFB Base driving around, I saw some 24 activity on the Base. 25 A short time later Constable Wells, who


1 had night vision goggles and he advised that he could see 2 four (4) people coming through the bush towards our 3 location. 4 Q: You're looking at the top of your 5 page 63, are you? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Yeah, carry on. 8 A: Constable Wells -- actually just one 9 (1) second please... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes, Constable Wells advised that he 14 observed four (4) people coming through the bush towards 15 our location. And for officer safety reasons we left 16 that location and we backed up, went back to the location 17 of Port Franks Road and 21 Highway. 18 Q: You went off duty at 15:00 hours, 19 between the point where you back off and go off duty is 20 there anything else that occurred of -- 21 A: At 2:30 I was advised to go to the 22 Mayor's residence, again as I had alluded to before there 23 had been -- when we had driven by the Mayor's -- we were 24 advised to go up to the Mayor's residence for security. 25 Attended there for a period of time. We


1 went to another road closure. 2 Q: You're looking at the entry at 03:15 3 hours? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: I have some notations along in there, 6 but I don't have the actual times between the one (1) 7 location at 03:15 and the next one (1) at 13:30. I have 8 some points recorded, but I don't have the exact specific 9 times for those. 10 Q: And I take it the reason for that is, 11 is you didn't make these notations at that moment? 12 A: No, that's correct. 13 Q: You made these notes when? 14 A: They would have been made prior to 15 the conclusion of my shift, actually at 14:05 I have 16 indicated notes. 17 Q: Right. And you're now talking about 18 the 7th of September? 19 A: Yes, yes, off duty at 14:05, 2:05 20 p.m. on the 7th of September, prior to the conclusion of 21 my shift, I would have been caught up in all of my note 22 taking. 23 Q: Okay. And aside from preparing your 24 notes, I understand that you would have prepared the Will 25 Say. And if you go to the front -- the first document at


1 Tab 12. 2 A: Tab 12 -- 3 Q: I've referred you and had you look at 4 this earlier, Will Say of Provincial Constable Steven 5 Lorch, see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Is that the Will Say that you would 8 have prepared at that point, or can you tell us when this 9 was made? 10 A: I don't -- I can't say when this was 11 made. 12 Q: Okay. Beyond these events, Officer, 13 did you have any further involvement in the Ipperwash 14 matter? 15 A: I -- I stayed in the area on standby. 16 There were a few other patrols. We -- I was -- I was in 17 the area until the 2nd of August -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry, 18 to the 12th September. 19 Q: So you were there on the 8th, on the 20 9th, 10, 11, 12? 21 A: That's correct. On the 12th I 22 returned home to my home detachment. 23 Q: You had a debriefing on the 12th with 24 the OPP psychologist, yes? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And do you recall who that was? 2 A: I believe it was Dr. Hoath. 3 Q: All right. With respect to the 4 testimony you provided about hearing automatic gunfire on 5 the night of September 5th, do you know when you would 6 have first told anybody about that? 7 A: I -- I don't recall. 8 Q: Can I ask you to turn to the document 9 at Tab 15, it's been marked as Exhibit P-1444. It's a 10 statement of Ronald E. Piers. 11 First of all, do you know Mr. Piers? 12 A: I have met Mr. Piers on one (1) 13 occasion. 14 Q: All right. And if you look at what 15 is the second page of that document, and it's marked Page 16 24 at the top of that, it's the second page in? 17 A: Okay. I see it now. 18 Q: Page 24; do you see that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it says: 21 "Interviewed Steve Lorch, St. Thomas 22 Detachment"? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And that's the detachment you told us 25 you were stationed at then and are still stationed?


1 A: It's now -- it's now properly 2 entitled, Eldon County. 3 Q: Fair enough. 4 A: But it is still -- the Detachment is 5 based out of St. Thomas. 6 Q: And the first bullet under that says: 7 "During the evening of September 5th, 8 '95 he heard gunfire coming from the 9 Army Base." 10 A: Yes, that's correct. 11 Q: And the are two (2) other comments 12 there are, as well, consistent with what you've told us? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And do you know when that 15 interview would have taken place? 16 A: I don't -- I don't recall the exact 17 date. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 19 that at? 20 MR. DONALD WORME: That's at Tab 15, 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen 23 (15). 24 MR. DONALD WORME: And it was the second 25 page in towards the middle.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 2 a page 24. Oh yes, I do. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Officer, if I suggested it was July 8 21st, 1997, does that assist your recollection at all? 9 A: I -- I don't have that notebook. I 10 would -- I would conclude that it would have been after 11 May 6th, 1997, at least. 12 Q: And, Officer, is there anything else 13 of -- of importance that I haven't asked you about that 14 you think that we should know about at this time? 15 A: Not that I can think of. 16 Q: Just one (1) last line of inquiry, 17 sir. Were you aware of the production of mugs, T-shirts, 18 other memorabilia in connection with this particular 19 event? 20 A: I've become aware of it now, yes. 21 Q: Created by the Ontario Provincial 22 Police or some members of, I should say? 23 A: I'm -- I'm aware of this now, yes. 24 Q: Had you acquired any such -- any such 25 materials?


1 A: At the time I had acquired a T-shirt 2 that had a OPP crest with a feather -- the one that's 3 been referred to as the feather -- including the feather. 4 Q: Who did you acquire that from? 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Do you recall when you would have 7 acquired that? 8 A: I don't recall when it would have 9 been. 10 Q: And what became of this? 11 A: I disposed of it. 12 Q: You'll see up on the screen is a 13 depiction of an item that's been marked as P-458? 14 A: Yes, that's -- that is the shirt, 15 sir. 16 Q: All right. And what did you do with 17 this item? 18 A: I disposed of it. 19 Q: Why and when? 20 A: A short period afterwards I became 21 aware, I don't remember where I had heard it, that it was 22 a controversial shirt and I disposed of it. 23 Q: All right. Beyond that, sir, do you 24 have anything to -- to offer to the -- to the 25 Commissioner?


1 A: Not that I can think of. 2 Q: All right. Thank you, sir. Those 3 are all the questions I have in-chief, Commissioner. And 4 I wonder if we might inquire of My Friends as to who, 5 first of all, wishes and perhaps an estimate as to length 6 of time? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 8 wish to examine this Witness? 9 Yes, Mr. Alexander...? 10 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Ten (10) to twenty 11 (20) minutes. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Ten (10) to twenty 13 (20) minutes for Mr. Alexander. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Esmonde...? 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thirty (30) to 17 forty-five (45) minutes. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) to forty- 19 five (45) for Ms. Esmonde, Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Twenty (20) to thirty 22 (30) minutes. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) to thirty 24 (30). 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr.


1 Falconer...? 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thirty (30) 3 minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thirty (30) 6 minutes. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) minutes 8 he's indicated, Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Given the 13 -- the time, Commissioner, it is about eleven (11) 14 minutes before 1:00 according to my time. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 16 lunch break. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: We'll take our lunch 18 break now. Thank you very much, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 20 our lunch break now. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 22 adjourned until 1:45. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 12:48 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 1:48 p.m.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can't 7 start without the Witness. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Well, I think I'd 9 get some very interesting answers though. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Just a moment's 14 indulgence, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 afternoon. 21 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 23 afternoon. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 2 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Good afternoon, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 afternoon, Mr. Alexander. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Lorch. 9 A: Good afternoon, sir. 10 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 11 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 12 several members of the George Family including Sam George 13 who's sitting here beside me. And I have a few questions 14 I'd like to ask you this morning. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And just so you know where I'm going, 17 they're going to focus on the events of your shift on the 18 evening of September the 5th. 19 A: Hmm hmm. Okay. 20 Q: Now as understand it, you were at 21 Checkpoint Delta that evening, which was basically across 22 from the Army Camp closer to Highway 21, correct? 23 A: On the 5th that you could -- one 24 moment please. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I -- on September 5th I had overlap 4 shifts, like from the one that began on the 4th and went 5 into the 5th and also one that began the evening of the 6 5th. 7 Q: I'm focussing on the one in the 8 evening of the 5th. 9 A: The evening of Tuesday, the 5th of 10 September? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: The bottom of my notes of my notebook 13 it says Number 60? 14 Q: Yes, it would be that. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Tab 10, Inquiry Document Number 17 2005424, Exhibit P-1689, for the benefit of My Friends. 18 A: Okay. Okay. 19 Q: Do you agree with me that that's 20 where you were? You were at Checkpoint Delta across from 21 the Army Camp and you were closer to Highway 21? 22 A: We were at Checkpoint Delta located 23 on Army Camp Road just to the north of Highway 21. I 24 can't be specific as to the location. 25 Q: I'm just trying to get a general idea


1 of where you were. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: And it was that evening that you 4 heard what you have testified was automatic gunfire from 5 inside the Camp on the evening of the 5th, correct? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Now can you assist us as to what time 8 you heard that? 9 A: I -- I'm not -- I'm not familiar with 10 what time it was. 11 Q: You indicated that you heard it at -- 12 from a northeasterly direction, correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Can you provide any assistance as to 15 how far away it was? 16 A: It was some distance away. I can't - 17 - I can't estimate more than that. 18 Q: And you're sure it was in the Army 19 Camp though? 20 A: It -- yes, yes. 21 Q: Did you report this incident to 22 anyone? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: You also testified that you were 25 familiar with the sound you heard, but you also testified


1 that it's the first time you heard it outside the firing 2 range. Does that sound familiar? 3 A: Outside of training? 4 Q: Outside of training, yes. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: I believe when you said outside of -- 7 when you were talking about training and where you've 8 heard the sound before, it was at the training range or 9 the firing range. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay. Now, just so I understand, 12 when you heard the sound, would it have been one of those 13 kind of things that it's not -- you wouldn't have handled 14 an automatic weapon in that case, correct? 15 A: No. 16 Q: It would have been -- you would have 17 been doing your practice shots and somebody else would 18 have been practising somewhere else along the firing 19 range. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Okay. So you would have relatively 22 close in terms of where the -- where the weapon was being 23 discharged? 24 A: During the training purposes? 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Can you let me know -- can you inform 3 me as to what kind of automatic weapons you heard during 4 training? 5 A: I'm not -- I -- I'm not familiar with 6 the actual make or brand. 7 Q: Did you hear any difference in the 8 automatic weapons that you heard? 9 A: Any difference? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Just -- than -- than my weapon that I 12 work with you mean? 13 Q: Sorry, I'll be clearer. 14 A: Okay, I'm sorry. 15 Q: Did you only hear one (1) type of 16 automatic gunfire at training or did you hear more than 17 one (1)? 18 A: Only one (1) that I recall. 19 Q: Would you say the sounds you heard at 20 the Camp sounded like what you -- sounded like the model 21 or the type of automatic gunfire you heard at training? 22 A: I can't say. 23 Q: I want to turn your mind now to the 24 period of September 1995, at September 4th to the 6th, 25 1995.


1 And for my next series of questions I'd 2 like you to consider those periods in answering them. 3 A: Sorry, from the 4th to the 6th? 4 Q: The summer of -- 5 A: The fan is a little loud there. 6 Q: Sorry, the summer of 1995 -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- when you were posted at Ipperwash. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And September 4th to 6th, 1995. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: Did you ever, at any time, see an 13 automatic weapon in the Camp or in the Park? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Did you ever, at any time, see a 16 shell casing of a fired automatic weapon in the Camp or 17 the Park? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: Have you ever seen physical evidence 20 of automatic weapons in the Camp or the Park? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Have you ever had anyone tell you 23 that they saw physical evidence of automatic weapons in 24 the Camp or the Park, or automatic weapons in the Camp or 25 the Park?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Now, we've already opened the page to 3 Tab 10, Inquiry Document Number 2005424, Exhibit P-1689, 4 page 60 in your book, sir. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: At the bottom of the page going onto 7 the top of the next. 8 And Mr. Worme's already indicated that 9 there's no mention of automatic gunfire in your notes, 10 correct? 11 A: No, there's not. 12 Q: And you'd agree with me that, based 13 on what I've heard from your evidence, this is one (1) of 14 the few times that you have an independent recollection 15 of something that's not in your notes? 16 A: I've -- I believe I've had 17 independent recollection before. 18 Q: But this is one (1) of the few times 19 that there is an independent recollection that you have 20 no basis in your notes to support you on it? 21 A: There -- I have independent 22 recollection. There is nothing in my notes to reflect 23 that, yes. 24 Q: I want to talk a little bit about 25 your note taking practices for that evening.


1 Now, you'd agree with me that part of your 2 duties, in terms of taking notes, is to capture things of 3 significance that occur during your shift and also to 4 refresh your memory about events, correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And your testimony is that for the 7 evening of the 5th you did not take detailed notes 8 because somebody higher up was taking care of the 9 detailed notes for that evening, correct? 10 A: It was -- it was my understanding 11 that another officer was taking -- recording events, yes. 12 Q: Now, the reason why that confuses me, 13 is I look at your notes for September the 6th, which are 14 located at Tab 12, Exhibit P-1690, part of Inquiry 15 Document 2003686, I'm not going to go through your 16 notes, but turning four (4) pages in, it seems that you 17 have very detailed notes for that evening. 18 Were you under the same impression, sir, 19 that somebody higher up would be taking care of the 20 detailed notes? 21 A: I was the -- no, no. 22 Q: So for some reason, only the evening 23 of September 5th was the night that you thought that 24 somebody else would take care of the detailed notes? 25 A: September 6th I -- the notes were in


1 reflection of my actual actions and I recorded them. 2 Q: But you didn't do that for September 3 5th either in terms of -- but you didn't do that for 4 September 5th in terms of the observations you had? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you know who was taking the 7 detailed notes for that evening? 8 A: No, I don't recall. 9 Q: And you've already testified that you 10 had no discussions with officers about the automatic 11 gunfire, correct? 12 A: Not that I recall. 13 Q: So you didn't speak to someone else 14 in order to say, did you hear that or put that in the 15 notes? 16 A: Not that I recall. 17 Q: I'd like to take you to Tab 14, 18 please. This is a statement of Harry Marissen, Inquiry 19 Document Number 1000359; do you have it, sir? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: If I could ask you to turn to page 3 22 and you'll see the second paragraph. I'm just going to 23 read parts of this very quickly: 24 "Our second shift was on Tuesday, 5th 25 September, 1995 starting at 18:00 hours


1 concluding at 10:00 Wednesday morning. 2 Myself, Denis Leblanc and Mark Zachary, 3 Sam Poole, Ron Bell, Steve Lorch and 4 two (2) persons from No. 1 District, I 5 can't remember their names, were 6 stationed at Checkpoint B." 7 Skipping down to ten (10) lines from the 8 bottom: 9 "No weapons were ever unholstered. 10 Long rifles, shotguns were accessible 11 in the trunks of patrol units but were 12 never removed. Again, there was some 13 traffic seen within the Park. 14 Spotlights shone on us and some 15 yelling. There were, however, no 16 problems." 17 Do you see that, sir? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: You'll note that according to the 20 statement which was taken on September 7th, according to 21 the first page? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Constable Marissen makes no reference 24 to gunfire, correct? 25 A: I don't see any.


1 Q: And he, in fact, goes further and 2 says: 3 "There were, however, no problems." 4 Correct? 5 A: That's what's indicated, yes. 6 Q: If I can take you to Tab 12, please? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 8 Mr. Alexander, I missed that? 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Tab 12. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 12. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 13 Q: This is Inquiry Document Number 14 2003686, Exhibit P-1690. Do you have it, sir? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: And you'll see at the first couple of 17 pages is a Will Say of yourself followed by some attached 18 notes, it appears, correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And looking through the Will Say I 21 see no reference to automatic gunfire on the evening of 22 September 5th, correct? 23 A: You're correct. 24 Q: Now, the first record that I can find 25 of you reporting in or talking about automatic gunfire,


1 is the document at Tab 15 that Mr. Worme took you to, the 2 second page, page 24 where there's that interview -- 3 where there's the interview with -- by Ron Piers; that's 4 page 24 at the top, Inquiry Document Number 2005302. 5 This is an excerpt from Exhibit P-1444. 6 And this is the first instance I can find 7 that you say you heard gunfire coming from the Army Base 8 during the evening of September 5th. 9 Are you aware of any other instance where 10 you told someone this? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Now, you also testified that you know 13 it was sometimes after -- sometime after May '97 that you 14 first discussed this issue, and I'm going to try to 15 assist you with the date. 16 A: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: What I'm handing up is the page 21 before page 24, page 23. 22 A: Thank you. 23 Q: And the only thing I want to take you 24 through is the date. The entire exhibit is on file. 25 It's generally organized in a -- it's organized in a


1 chronological order, from what we can tell. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: And if you look at page 23 it has the 4 date of July 21st, 1997: 5 "Interviewed Harry Marissen." 6 If you continue on to the next page you 7 would continue your interview, it appears, on the same 8 day, on page in your binder. 9 And then below that is July 22nd, 1997: 10 "Interviewed Mark Zachary." 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: So it would appear from this 13 statement that you were interviewed on July 21st, 1997? 14 A: That is possible. 15 Q: And you don't take issue with that 16 date, even though you don't specifically recall the date? 17 A: It is possible. I don't recall the 18 date. 19 Q: You don't take issue with that date 20 then? 21 A: No, I don't take issue with that 22 date. It is possible. 23 Q: Now, if you turn to page 1 in that 24 tab? 25 A: I'm sorry, tab which?


1 Q: The same tab, Tab 15? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: This is the cover page, it says 4 "Statement of Ron Piers -- Ronald E. Piers" at the top? 5 A: Yes, I have it. 6 Q: It notes that Ron Piers was asked to 7 investigate -- to -- sorry, let me try that again, start 8 over. 9 It notes that Ron Piers was retained in 10 May 1997 to assist with the Deane appeal. Do you -- I'm 11 focussing on the timing of this. 12 So you were interviewed post the 13 conviction of Ken Deane, and you gave this interview as 14 part of the assistance for the appeal. 15 A: I'm not -- I'm not familiar with the 16 timeline. 17 Q: We've heard evidence that Mr. Deane 18 was convicted on April 28th, 1997. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Do you take issue with that? 21 A: I -- I'm not familiar with the exact 22 date. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: I don't take issue with it. 25 Q: So it would appear that your


1 interview occurred after the conviction of Mr. Deane. 2 A: It is possible. 3 Q: And then this would have been to 4 assist with the appeal of Mr. Deane. 5 A: Once again, I'm not sure of the 6 timeline, whenever I was interviewed. 7 Q: Sir, I'm going to suggest to you that 8 you made up the occurrence of automatic gunfire on the 9 evening of September 5th to assist with the appeal of 10 Kenneth Deane. 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: I'm also going to suggest to you, 13 sir, that if you heard anything at all, you have very 14 little basis to determine what if -- if what you heard 15 was actually automatic gunfire or something else. 16 Would you like me to repeat that? 17 A: Okay. I -- sorry, I didn't realize 18 there was a question there. 19 Q: I'm also going to suggest to you, 20 sir, that if you heard anything at all that evening, you 21 have very little basis, based on your experience, to 22 determine if what you heard was actually automatic 23 gunfire or something else. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Do you accept or do you disagree with


1 that? 2 A: I disagree with that. I -- I -- I've 3 already stated my observations, so. 4 Q: I'm also going to suggest to you, 5 sir, that if you heard anything at all that night, what 6 you actually heard was firecrackers or fireworks, and 7 that's why you didn't write it down in your notes or 8 mention it until years later. 9 A: No, I've already stated that the 10 reason I didn't write -- record it down was because I was 11 under the impression that someone else was scribing down 12 the events. 13 Q: I have your evidence, sir, and thank 14 you very much, Constable Lorch. I have no further 15 questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Alexander. 18 Ms. Esmonde...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 23 Q: Good afternoon. 24 A: Hello. 25 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde and I'm


1 going to be asking you some questions on behalf of the 2 Aazhoodena and George Family Group, which includes Marcia 3 Simon -- 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: -- amongst the members of that group. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So not surprisingly, I'd like to 8 focus on the evening of September 6th -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- 1995. And you told us about 11 taking up a position with a number of other officers on 12 Army Camp Road. Now I take it when you -- when you were 13 driving there, did you pass the Army Camp entrance? 14 A: Yes, we would have. 15 Q: Okay. And did you observe there that 16 there were a number of vehicles that were parked in the 17 entrance to the Army Camp as you passed by? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: You don't recall? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And in your testimony earlier this 22 morning, you said that you were not making up a 23 checkpoint at that location; is that right? 24 A: This is the part where I used the 25 pointer that we were about halfway?


1 Q: That's right, when you were half -- 2 about halfway -- 3 A: Yes. It didn't have a specific 4 checkpoint reference number that I'm aware of. 5 Q: What were your duties there? 6 A: I just recall we were advised to move 7 further north from Checkpoint Delta. 8 Q: To take up the position you've 9 described? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now you told us about some of the -- 12 the things that you heard over the radio and including a 13 comment that you heard there firing. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now we have the benefit of the 16 recording of the radio transmissions for the ERT team 17 from that evening, as well as a transcript. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: Have you ever had an opportunity to 20 review -- 21 A: No, I have not. 22 Q: -- either the audio recording or the 23 transcript? 24 A: No, I have not. 25 Q: The transcript has been marked as P-


1 438 in these proceedings. I do have a copy of it here. 2 A: Sorry, is this in my binder? 3 Q: No, I have -- I have a -- 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: -- copy here I can provide for you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Thank you. 10 Q: And if you could specifically turn to 11 page 11. I should say, Mr. Commissioner, this is a 12 differently formatted version of P-438 so the page 13 numbering may not match exactly with the exhibit copy 14 But if you could turn to page 11. 15 A: Page 11. 16 Q: I -- I have reviewed the transcript 17 and I don't see any recording of words, "they're firing", 18 but at page 11 on my copy there are the words, "Shots 19 fired, shots fired" near the bottom; do you see that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 22 what you heard was in fact the words, "Shots fire, shots 23 fired," as opposed to, "they're firing" now that you've 24 had the benefit of reviewing the transcript. 25 Q: That is possible.


1 A: That's possible. And after the shots 2 -- after you heard the "shots fired" over the radio at 3 some point your group was ordered to move; is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you remember how long after 6 you heard those shots that order came? 7 A: Probably within a minute; a very 8 short period of time. 9 Q: And who made the order? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Now, you've described some vehicles 12 that you observed on the -- the road inside the Army Camp 13 travelling southbound. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you see more than two (2) 16 vehicles or just two (2)? 17 A: Just two (2) vehicles. 18 Q: You've described two (2). I'm -- 19 A: Two (2) vehicles. 20 Q: And they were travelling southbound? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Did you see any that were travelling 23 northbound at any time in the minutes -- 24 A: None -- 25 Q: -- prior to that?


1 A: None that I recall. Those were the 2 only two (2) vehicles I recall. 3 Q: How close together were they? 4 A: Close enough so it appeared they were 5 travelling together yet far enough apart I could see 6 headlights of the second vehicle. I -- I don't want to 7 guesstimate on -- 8 Q: Okay. So you saw headlights of the 9 second vehicle -- 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: -- but not of the first? 12 A: No, I -- I did see of the first as 13 well. 14 Q: Okay. And you were moving at that 15 point? 16 A: The -- the point when I first became 17 aware of these vehicles? 18 Q: When you saw these headlights. 19 A: No, I don't believe we were. 20 Q: So just to get the chronology then, 21 you saw these vehicles moving and then you start moving 22 as well as -- 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: -- a passenger in the cruiser you 25 were in?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And -- and it was -- you told us that 3 it was dark and all you could see was the headlights? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And I take it there were also would 6 have been some obstacles to your view such as trees or 7 brush? 8 A: Not that I recall. It was open. 9 Q: As you recall it you could see both 10 vehicles at all times? You never lost sight of them? 11 A: At all times? Once it got up towards 12 the -- towards the Army Camp Base there were a few 13 seconds when it would have went between -- when they 14 would have went between buildings. 15 Q: That's right. When it -- when it got 16 into the built-up area you would have lost sight of it 17 right because -- 18 A: For -- 19 Q: -- the buildings would have -- 20 A: -- for a fraction of a second until - 21 - yes. 22 Q: It's -- it's your testimony it was 23 only a fraction of a second that you lost sight of them? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And you were able to -- I'm -- I'm


1 trying to understand because you -- you say you saw 2 headlights and that's all that you could see? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So -- and you were the passenger in 5 your cruiser and so you said you could see them the whole 6 time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You were keeping your eye on them 9 instead of on the road? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So were you facing backwards then? 12 A: I was looking over my left shoulder, 13 yes. 14 Q: Okay. They were behind you? 15 A: They were behind or just slightly to 16 the side. I don't -- I don't recall the exact, but we 17 both travelled southbound at approximately the timeframe. 18 Q: Okay. But in order to be -- to see 19 their headlights they would have had to have been behind 20 you, right, or you would have told us you saw their 21 taillights? 22 A: Yes, they were -- yes. 23 Q: So you're craning your neck looking 24 over your shoulder and you're watching these vehicles? 25 A: As I indicated we hadn't been moving


1 yet when we -- I first became aware of the vehicles 2 coming. 3 Q: Okay. But once you're in the 4 cruiser -- 5 A: Once we're in the cruiser, yes. 6 Q: -- you're -- you're craning your neck 7 and you're looking behind you to see the vehicles? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then I -- I'm not understanding 10 then how it is that if they were slightly behind you or 11 to the side of you that you were behind them then when 12 they came out of the Army Camp. 13 A: At one (1) -- at some point they -- 14 they would have increased distance and became a little 15 bit ahead of us. As we approached southbound on our side 16 on -- on the -- on the Army Camp side we were approaching 17 and there was a road-check as well so we would have had 18 to slow down for that. 19 Q: Where did you slow down? 20 A: I wasn't operating the vehicle. 21 Q: Well, you understand of course that 22 the -- the checkpoint had been set up on Highway 21 at 23 that corner of Army Camp Road and Highway 21? 24 A: I've already indicated I can't recall 25 the exact location of --


1 Q: I see. 2 A: -- where the checkpoint was. 3 Q: The entrance to the Army Camp is 4 north of the intersection? 5 A: Just a little bit north, that's 6 correct. 7 Q: I put it to you, sir, that based on 8 what you've described, you can't be 100 percent certain 9 that the vehicles that you saw driving up the interior 10 road were in fact the same vehicles that emerged from the 11 Army Camp entrance? 12 A: I am 100 percent sure they are the 13 same vehicles. 14 Q: And then you followed the vehicle 15 that turned towards Northville? 16 A: Turned eastbound? 17 Q: Sorry, turned -- turned -- 18 A: Sorry. 19 Q: -- left at the intersection? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you were -- you were following 22 that vehicle? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at that time you had no knowledge 25 of what had -- of the -- of the location where the


1 shooting had -- the shots had been fired, other than it 2 was north of you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You didn't know anything about the 5 circumstances? 6 A: No. 7 Q: But in your mind, you linked that -- 8 those -- the vehicle that turned left with the shooting 9 you had heard on the radio? 10 A: Sorry? The question again, please? 11 Q: In your mind, you linked the shooting 12 you had heard over the radio and -- with the vehicle? 13 A: I -- I noted that the vehicle came 14 from the general direction of where the shooting 15 occurred. I wasn't 100 percent sure that the vehicle was 16 involved but it was coming from that location. 17 Q: You, of course, couldn't see where 18 the altercation took place? 19 A: No, we could not. 20 Q: You didn't see anything of the 21 altercation? 22 A: We could not see from our location, 23 no. 24 Q: And these vehicles, you saw them 25 moving within minutes -- sorry, within less than a


1 minute, I believe you said, of when you heard the 2 shooting? 3 A: Within seconds; that's correct. 4 Q: Within seconds from when you heard 5 the shooting? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you saw them, they would have 8 been -- when you first saw them they would have been 9 north of the Park? 10 A: They would have been, I'm sorry? 11 Q: North of the Provincial Park? 12 A: No, they wouldn't have been north -- 13 Q: Oh, pardon me, south of the -- 14 A: -- of the -- 15 Q: I got my -- as many people have, I 16 got my directions mixed up there. 17 A: They were north of me. 18 Q: They were north of you but south -- 19 A: South of the Provincial Park. 20 Q: -- of the Provincial Park? 21 A: That's correct. I'm not sure of the 22 exact layout of the inside of the -- of the base -- of 23 the road. But it was from that direction of the 24 Provincial Park area. 25 Q: You'd agree with me that based on


1 what you -- what you saw, there was no way those vehicles 2 that you observed could have gotten from the Provincial 3 Park to that location within the time that you heard the 4 shooting take place? 5 A: I -- your question one more time, 6 sorry? 7 Q: Yeah, that was awkwardly phrased. 8 A: Sorry. 9 Q: You would agree with me, if we -- 10 well let me back up a moment. You heard the shots over 11 the radio, and based on what you heard over the radio you 12 understood that the Crowd Management Unit was at the 13 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road; is 14 that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you believed that the shots you 17 heard over the radio took place in some sort of 18 altercation between First Nations people and the Crowd 19 Management Unit? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And that that had taken place at that 22 corner of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 23 A: In that area, yes. 24 Q: And you'd agree with me that there is 25 no way that the cars that you saw could have been at the


1 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive 2 when the shots were fired, and then within seconds be at 3 the interior road on the Army Camp? 4 A: I -- once again, I've already 5 indicated I'm not familiar with the -- the road patterns 6 inside the fenced area there so I -- I would say, no, I - 7 - I -- I do not know if a vehicle could go from there to 8 where -- where I observed it. 9 Q: Were you aware of the distance 10 between those two (2) locations; the corner of East 11 Parkway Drive and where you first saw them on the 12 interior road? 13 A: I'm not familiar with the exact 14 distance, no. 15 Q: Having had a chance to look at the 16 map this morning -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- and in retrospect, you would agree 19 with me that there's no way that the vehicles that you 20 saw could have been at the corner of East Parkway Drive 21 and Army Camp Road at the time that the shots were fired? 22 A: I -- it was an extraordinary event at 23 the time. I believed the vehicles possibly could have 24 been involved or down from that area. I can't say about 25 how much distance the vehicles could have covered or


1 anything like that. 2 Q: I understand that's your evidence. 3 But that wasn't -- that didn't answer my question. My 4 question was, in retrospect -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- looking back now, calmly, without 7 the heightened senses that you had at the time -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- and having had a chance to look at 10 the map that you looked at this morning, would you agree 11 with me that there's no way that the vehicles you saw 12 could have been at the corner of Army Camp Road and East 13 Parkway Drive when you heard the shots fired? 14 A: Once again, I -- I don't know the -- 15 the road layout down at the location there that goes in 16 the inside of the -- it is -- it is some distance. I 17 don't know the exact distance, the amount of distance, 18 but I -- I can't say that for a fact I can see -- I can 19 say now that those vehicles were not there. 20 Q: Okay. Do you -- do you want me to 21 have the map put up again? And you can see the -- 22 A: Sure, if -- 23 Q: -- do you recall -- do you recall 24 that there's no direct road that goes from -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not --


1 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- that corner to -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 3 it's going to be helpful at this stage. 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 7 Q: Would it be helpful to you, sir, if 8 the map was put up again? 9 A: I -- once again I don't -- I -- I 10 don't recall. I -- I'm now -- I don't know the layout of 11 the roads on the inside there. I can't say that a 12 vehicle couldn't possibly do that. I don't know. 13 Q: Your partner, Constable Bell -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- was he more familiar with the area 16 than you? 17 A: I don't believe so. 18 Q: And had you had an opportunity to -- 19 you had an opportunity I take it in the course of your 20 surveillance and patrolling in August to become familiar 21 with the area. 22 A: We did not venture onto the Army Camp 23 area whatsoever, so -- 24 Q: You were in the Park? 25 A: I'm sorry?


1 Q: You were in the Park? 2 A: The Provincial Park? 3 Q: That's right. 4 A: The Provincial Park, yes. 5 Q: Yeah, you patrolled the Provincial 6 Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you were familiar where you not, 9 sir, that there was no direct road that went from -- that 10 would go from, what we've been calling the sandy parking 11 lot which is at the corner of East Parkway Drive and Army 12 Camp Road, there's no direct road from there straight up 13 to the interior road on the Army Camp. 14 A: I'm not familiar with that. 15 Q: You don't recall that from your -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- time patrolling? 18 A: No. No. 19 Q: Do you recall from your time 20 patrolling how long it would take to drive from that 21 intersection to Matheson Drive? 22 A: Matheson Drive? Sorry? 23 Q: Sorry. That's -- that's the -- the 24 road that goes eastbound from Army Camp Road and then 25 curves down and goes down to the beach.


1 A: North on Army Camp Road? Matheson 2 Road is up by the water, you mean? 3 Q: It curves around the Park. 4 A: Okay. I'm not familiar with the 5 names. 6 Q: All right. Can you recall how long 7 it would take you to drive from that intersection to the 8 position that you were -- took up on the road on the 9 evening of September 6th? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: It would take more than a split 12 second? 13 A: I'm sorry? 14 Q: It would take more than a split 15 second, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Perhaps a minute? 18 A: I don't know what -- it depends what 19 speed a vehicle would be travelling. 20 Q: Now, when you were following the 21 vehicle that we know as being driven by Marcia Simon -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- what were you planning to do when 24 you pulled her over? 25 A: Stop the vehicle, identify who -- the


1 occupants of the vehicle and just obtain -- try to 2 identify who was in the vehicle and where it was coming 3 from. 4 Q: Did you plan to arrest the occupants? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And on what grounds were you planning 7 to detain them? 8 A: To detain them? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: We were just going to ask them some 11 questions on the side of the road. 12 Q: Would you agree with me, if you 13 pulled somebody over to interview them and identify them, 14 that they would be detained? 15 A: In that interpretation, yes. 16 Q: Well, you'd agree with that 17 interpretation, right? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: That that's the correct 20 interpretation -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- they would have been detained, 23 correct? 24 A: Okay. They would have been stopped 25 on the side of the road, that's correct.


1 Q: And detained by you? 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: And what were your grounds for 4 detaining those women? 5 A: For investigative purposes, we were 6 going to assist -- try to identify who was in the 7 vehicle. 8 Q: How long did it take you to drive 9 from the intersection of Army Camp Road and Highway 21 10 and the restaurant where she pulled over? 11 A: I don't know the exact time, but it 12 was approximately 4 kilometres, so at -- at -- I'm not 13 sure the exact timeframe. 14 Q: And during that time period, you 15 could have gotten on your radio and tried to find out if 16 there was any information about a car meeting the 17 description of the vehicle you were following being 18 involved with the incident? 19 A: At the time there was quite a bit of 20 radio chatter. I don't -- I don't recall that there was 21 even open air time. 22 Q: Okay. But you -- you didn't add to 23 that chatter by asking any questions about whether the 24 vehicle you were following was thought to be involved in 25 the incident?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And in your mind looking back, at 3 that point the only thing that Ms. Simon had done wrong, 4 was that she failed to stop for police? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Now, you've told us that she was 7 travelling 75 to 80 kilometres an hour and -- and that 8 would be either at or below the speed limit, right? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you're quite certain that she 11 wasn't travelling at a 140 kilometres per hour for 12 example? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And she wasn't driving in a dangerous 15 or erratic manner? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And apart from not pulling over for 18 you she appeared to be following the rules of the road? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: She didn't fail to stop at any stop 21 sign? 22 A: When she left Army Camp Road the 23 vehicle did not come to a stop when it went past the 24 checkpoint. It's come to my -- it's come to my attention 25 afterwards that there is a stop sign that actually is


1 located at that very vicinity, but at that point that 2 wasn't on my mind. 3 Q: So your evidence now is that she 4 failed to stop at the stop sign? 5 A: No, I did not say that. 6 Q: You've been told that she failed to 7 stop at the stop sign? 8 A: I'm saying -- I'm saying she did not 9 stop -- the vehicle did not stop when it left the Army 10 Camp. I have now -- 11 Q: It -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: It did not stop when it left the Army 14 Camp -- 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: -- entrance? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: I -- I thought perhaps you were 19 referring to the intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp 20 Road and that's not what you were referring to? 21 A: When it left it continued in a 22 continuous motion from leaving the gates of the Camp 23 until it pulled into the restaurant/gas bar. It did not 24 come to a stop at any point. 25 Q: Okay. So there's a stop sign at the


1 corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: You believe so. At the time you 4 didn't notice her failing to stop at any stop sign? 5 A: I noticed that the vehicle did not 6 stop, I recall that. I -- yes. 7 Q: Well, you'd agree with me that 8 there's nothing in your notes or in your Will Say 9 suggesting that she had failed to stop at the stop sign 10 of the corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 11 A: That wasn't why I was going to be 12 stopping the vehicle. 13 Q: That -- that wasn't in your mind as a 14 reason for stopping her? 15 A: No. 16 Q: But we have heard from Ms. Simon 17 herself who testified in September of 2004 that she in 18 fact did stop at that stop sign and was very careful to 19 follow the rules of the road. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: And does that refresh your memory 22 that she did in fact stop -- 23 A: No, I recall -- 24 Q: -- at that stop sign? 25 A: -- I recall specifically that the


1 vehicle was in continuous motion and did not come to a 2 stop. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, we've heard evidence here that 7 when an officer engages in a pursuit of another vehicle 8 it's policy to have a sergeant monitor that over the 9 radio. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And that's because of the danger 12 inherent in a police pursuit? 13 A: I -- I'm not -- I don't -- I don't 14 work in a communication centre, I -- I can't comment on 15 that. 16 Q: Okay. So you're not aware of the 17 reason for such a policy? 18 A: No. 19 Q: But you would agree with me that 20 there is an inherent danger in a police pursuit of a 21 vehicle? 22 A: It is possible. 23 Q: We've heard that the protocol would 24 be to have the lead vehicle in a pursuit which would have 25 been your vehicle radio to a sergeant immediately upon


1 beginning the pursuit and you did that, right? 2 A: We -- it was radioed into the 3 Communications Centre, that's correct. 4 Q: That's correct. And was it you or 5 was it your partner who -- 6 A: I believe it was -- I believe it was 7 Constable Bell that operated the radio. 8 Q: And he would have done that very 9 shortly after the pursuit began? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you -- you've told us that you 12 received instructions to deactivate the lights and you 13 did do so as soon as you received that order? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: You or your partner? 16 A: Yes, that's correct. 17 Q: Now, you've testified that you 18 believe that the driver, Marcia Simon, ought to have 19 known to pull over and that's because you had your lights 20 activated, right? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And so conversely when you turned 23 your lights off she should have known that she didn't 24 need to pull over? 25 A: I just -- when we had the lights


1 activated she should have known that -- that we were 2 police officers and to pull over and she defied us to 3 stop. 4 Q: Okay, but then you deactivated your 5 lights? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you'd agree with me that would 8 send a signal that in fact you didn't need her to pull 9 over? 10 A: I don't necessarily agree with that 11 statement. 12 Q: Would you agree that it might be 13 confusing for the person that you're following if you 14 deactivate your lights? 15 A: I can't comment on the -- on the 16 opinion or perception of the driver, no. 17 Q: Well, you did comment that she ought 18 to have known to pull over because the lights were 19 activated. So in that sense you were able to make that - 20 - to theorize about what she may have known and I put it 21 you that if you deactivate your lights that would be a 22 signal to her that you, in fact, did not need her to pull 23 over? 24 A: Once again, I can't comment on it. 25 Q: Now, when you pulled into the


1 restaurant parking lot -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- you told us the headlights were 4 shining on the area around the telephone, so you had a 5 clear view? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you could observe that she was 8 holding on to the receiver, so you knew what she was 9 doing with one (1) hand? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Or was she hold -- she was -- she was 12 only holding the receiver with one (1) hand as opposed to 13 two (2)? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And did you see her dialling? 16 A: No, I did not. 17 Q: And you were able to identify her as 18 female at some point while she was still at the 19 telephone? 20 A: At some point, yes. 21 Q: While she was still at the telephone? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So she must -- she turned around in 24 some way for you to be able to identify that she was 25 female?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And she turned right around? 3 A: No. At some point when she was 4 turning -- turning her head in conversation, I can't 5 recall whether it was actually the voice or the features, 6 I don't know, but I became aware that it was actually a 7 female at some point. 8 Q: And you were watching her very 9 closely? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And she didn't appear to be fumbling 12 in her pockets with her other hand; you'd agree with 13 that? 14 A: I could not see that hand. 15 Q: But it didn't appear from her -- the 16 way that she was moving that she was fumbling in her 17 pockets? 18 A: I couldn't see. 19 Q: Now, you became aware at some point 20 while she was still at the telephone that she was trying 21 to get an ambulance? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you've told us that you had heard 24 on the radio that an ambulance had been called? 25 A: I had heard that earlier, yes.


1 Q: And when did you hear that? 2 A: I, at some point -- at some point 3 between the -- between when we left and passed by the 4 Army Camp Road entrance to when we became stopped. At 5 some point over the radio I was aware that an ambulance 6 had been dispatched. 7 Q: Okay. And where had the ambulance 8 been dispatched to? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Well, how do you know that the 11 ambulance was responding to the concern that had led Ms. 12 Simon to go to the telephone? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Now, we've heard from Officer 15 Gransden, who I believe is the officer that was involved 16 in assisting you in the arrest? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You know that now? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And he's told us that he approached 21 Ms. Simon with his pistol drawn, his handgun; do you 22 recall that? 23 A: Don't recall that, no. 24 Q: And you were asked about whether, in 25 your struggle with Ms. Simon, she was handled roughly,


1 and you -- in your view, she was not handled roughly? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Now, I've placed before you a copy of 4 P-49 which is a binder of documents that were introduced 5 as exhibits during the testimony of Marcia Simon? 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And I'm specifically interested in 8 Tab 7 which is some photographs taken of Ms. Simon the 9 day following the shooting? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 11 hate to interrupt, but we've been given no notice of 12 these documents and I have no idea what's being referred 13 to. We ought to, at least, have an opportunity to see 14 them and the Witness ought to have an opportunity to see 15 them. 16 We've had no document notice at all. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: But, Mr. Commissioner, 19 that is an exhibit, and I don't know that it's necessary 20 to go and give a document for every exhibit you want 21 call, it's already filed. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 23 sure -- 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I can -- I did 25 not provide a document notice about this document, it


1 arose during the course of his testimony this morning. I 2 did provide the exhibit copy to the Witness during the 3 lunch break and provided him with an opportunity to view 4 the photographs that I intended to put to him. 5 But I -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, sorry. Mr. 7 Commissioner -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does the 9 Witness need some more -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that is not the 11 case. This witness was not in here looking at exhibits. 12 THE WITNESS: When I set -- excuse me, 13 when I set my water down she indicated her name and said 14 there was a folder here to -- asked if I could become 15 familiar with it. And I had to go relieve myself in the 16 bathroom and I came back tardy -- tardy to when -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: And we started -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: He hasn't looked at 20 this and we don't know even know about it, Mr. 21 Commissioner -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 23 if the Witness needs some more time to look at the 24 exhibit, we'll give him some more time. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 2 Q: Have you had an opportunity to look 3 at the photographs? 4 A: I looked through the photographs 5 quickly, yes. 6 Q: Are you comfortable in answering 7 questions about the photographs? 8 A: If you can give me one more second I 9 can flip through again. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll just 11 take a minute and give him a chance to look at the 12 exhibit. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder if we can 17 maybe just take a few moment break and the Witness' 18 counsel can have a look at them as well. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You haven't 20 been shown these yourself? If it arises -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. -- Mr. 22 Commissioner, it would be really helpful -- I mean, the 23 whole purpose of the document notice is so that -- that 24 the Witness has a chance to review material in ample 25 time.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 2 But if -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And you know, the rules 4 are 24 hours and I appreciate people are keeping to it. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: But nonethe -- 7 nonetheless, we don't even know what this is -- what's 8 going on here. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sometimes it 10 arises out of the examination-in-chief and it isn't 11 possible. But if the Witness needs time to review it, 12 we'll give him time to review it. 13 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I -- I would 14 like to just respond. I mean I acknowledge that I didn't 15 provide a document notice with respect to these 16 photographs. They're -- these are not -- it should not 17 come as a surprise. They've -- we've seen them several 18 times in the course of these proceedings. It's a few 19 photographs. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: If the Witness 22 requires some time to -- to look at them, then I'd be 23 pleased if we could have a short recess to do that. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 25 few minutes, give the Witness an opportunity to do it and


1 then we'll come back. Let us know when he's ready. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 2:22 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 2:29 p.m. 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry. The 11 witness just stepped out for a personal moment. He'll be 12 back very briefly, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: While the 14 Witness is -- 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry about that. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Are there any other documents or exhibit or otherwise 21 that you're going to be relying on? 22 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I hope not, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because it's 24 not just a matter of fairness, it's also a matter of 25 time.


1 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I do understand 2 that. Thank you very much for this. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 4 carry on. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 7 Q: Now, you've had an opportunity to 8 review the photographs at Tab 7 of P-49? 9 A: Tab 7, that's correct. 10 Q: Okay. And for the rest of us, we 11 have on the screen... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Good. And does the photograph on the 16 screen correspond to the first photograph in the binder? 17 A: It does. 18 Q: Okay. And you'll see perhaps -- 19 perhaps it's a better quality photo in front of you that 20 she's pointing out a bruise on her arm. This is a 21 photograph of Marcia Simon. 22 A: I can -- I can see it appears to be a 23 calendar held up underneath the mark on an arm. 24 Q: Okay. And you'd agree with me that 25 the


1 -- the bruise on her arm which appears to be her right 2 arm, upper arm, is consistent with the level of force 3 that either you or the Officer Gransden applied to her 4 arm? 5 A: I -- I'm sorry, the question one (1) 6 more time? 7 Q: You would agree with me that you did 8 -- you or Officer Gransden or both of you, did apply 9 force to Ms. Simon's arms in trying to restrain her? 10 A: In trying to restrain her we used as 11 little force as was necessary. Her resisting was 12 dictating the force that was required. 13 Q: I -- I understand your evidence about 14 the amount of force that was required. But you would 15 agree with me that you -- you, Officer Gransden or the 16 both of you did grab Ms. Simon by the arms in your 17 attempts to restrain her? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And that the mark that we see on her 20 arm would be consistent with that force? 21 A: I don't recall the exact location on 22 an arm of where -- where she was grabbed. 23 Q: You'd agree with me that the level of 24 force that you were required to employ in order to 25 restrain Ms. Simon, it did require you you've said to


1 grab onto her arm -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- and did you yourself grab her arm? 4 A: I did. 5 Q: And that you grabbed her with enough 6 force to cause a bruise of that nature? 7 A: I can't comment on -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 9 how he can comment on how much force it would take to 10 cause a bruise. He's indicated that he grabbed her by 11 the arm. The rest I think it's up to you to make an 12 argument. I'm sorry. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 15 Q: Okay. It would not surprise you, 16 would it, sir, if she received some bruising in the 17 course of your handling of her? 18 A: At no point did I -- was I ever aware 19 of any injuries. No injuries were ever brought to my 20 attention. 21 Q: No, I understand that, but my 22 question was: Would it surprise you if the level of 23 force -- sorry, I'll rephrase that. 24 It was -- your adrenalin was pumping very 25 high at that point --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- when you were dealing with Ms. 3 Simon? You were -- it was a high-risk take-down? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you perceived her to be 6 struggling? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Flailing -- flailing is the word that 9 you used to describe her actions? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that you had to grab onto her in 12 order to restrain her? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And you don't recall exactly where 15 you would have grabbed her -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- on -- but you did grab her on her 18 arms? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Both arms? 21 A: I would have been on one (1) side of 22 Mrs. Simon. 23 Q: So if you were on one (1) side then-- 24 A: Constable Gransden would have been on 25 the other.


1 Q: -- Officer Gransden would have been 2 on the other? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And did you observe anyone else, 5 apart from yourself and Officer Gransden, apply physical 6 force to Ms. Simon? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: Now, you know now that the elderly 9 woman in the car was Melva George? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And that was Ms. Simon's mother? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you've described seeing her 14 sitting in the passenger seat with her feet outside of 15 the car? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But you did also observe her outside 18 of the vehicle? 19 A: I have -- I have indicated -- one (1) 20 moment, please. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I have indicated that the passenger 25 stepped out of the vehicle.


1 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I have indicated that the -- the 3 passenger stepped out of the vehicle. 4 Q: That's right. She was out of the 5 vehicle during the period that Ms. Simon was on the 6 telephone, correct? 7 A: It -- I -- I don't recall whether it 8 was when I was passing past the front of the vehicle or 9 whether I was over at the phone. I can't recall exactly. 10 Q: Okay. Well, let's take a look at 11 your notes, which are at Tab 12 for My Friends. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And they form part of Exhibit P-1690. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, on the -- the second page of the 20 notes -- do you have them? 21 A: Sorry, that's not on Tab 12 in my 22 book here. Just a second. 23 Q: At Tab 12 the first document is your 24 Will Say. It's the second page from the back? 25 A: Okay. I have it now.


1 Q: Okay? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you'll see near the top you're 4 describing the altercation in the restaurant parking lot. 5 A: On the top of the page, yes. 6 Q: Yes. Okay. Now, one (1), two (2), 7 three (3), four (4) -- start five (5) lines down: 8 "Two (2) cruisers pulled up on an angle 9 and high risk. Advised of the police 10 challenge and to put hands up. Driver 11 continues to use the phone. Passenger 12 stepped out of vehicle, elderly lady. 13 Driver continuing [is it] to use 14 phone." 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Okay. So does that assist you to 17 refresh your memory that, in fact, while Ms. Simon was on 18 the telephone her mother Melva George exited the vehicle? 19 A: At some point. I -- I can't -- I 20 don't recall the exact point when she exited the vehicle. 21 Q: Okay. But the -- as you've described 22 it in your notes, she exited the vehicle while Ms. Simon 23 was on the telephone? 24 A: It doesn't -- I have indicated, 25 "passenger stepped out of vehicle," after I have


1 indicated that she continued to use the phone. That's 2 what's in my notes. 3 Q: It says: 4 "Driver continues to use the phone." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: "Passenger stepped out of the 7 vehicle." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: "Elderly lady. Driver continued to 10 use phone. Told to hang up." 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And you'd agree with me that based on 13 your notes, which were written much closer in time than 14 we are today -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- that the passenger, Ms. George, 17 stepped out of the vehicle while Ms. Simon was on the 18 telephone. 19 A: As I say, I -- I can't recall when 20 exactly it was, whether it was as I was going past the 21 vehicle or whether it -- when I was on the phone. She 22 was on the phone for some period of time; I'm not sure of 23 the exact time period. 24 Q: Okay. So she may have gotten out of 25 the vehicle before Ms. Simon was on the telephone?


1 A: No, it would have been when she was 2 on the tel -- I don't know when she was -- during the 3 time she was on the telephone. 4 Q: And you'll recall that while she was 5 out of the vehicle officers had their long guns pointed 6 at Ms. George -- Melva George? 7 A: I just have a vague recollection of 8 an awareness that she was out of the vehicle. My -- my 9 train of thought was on the driver on the payphone. The 10 other officers were dealing with -- with the passenger of 11 the vehicle. 12 Q: Now, once you had searched Ms. Simon 13 and the vehicle, you were aware that there were no 14 weapons? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And you were not concerned, I take 17 it, that Ms. Melva George had been involved in the 18 shooting that you heard? 19 A: I'm sorry? 20 Q: Once you'd had an opportunity to 21 speak with the women, the search the vehicle, to search 22 Ms. Simon, I take it you didn't have any concerns about 23 Melva George and continuing to hold her in custody? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And you weren't concerned that she


1 had been involved in the shooting that you heard over the 2 radio? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And in fact, you had no evidence 5 either that Ms. Simon had been involved in any way with 6 the shooting that you heard over the radio? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And that -- and you understood by 9 that point that, in fact, she had simply been trying to 10 get an ambulance? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you understand that she, in 13 fact, feared that her son had been injured and she wanted 14 an ambulance for her son? 15 A: I'm not aware of that. 16 Q: And why didn't you release Ms. Simon 17 right away in the parking lot? 18 A: I'm sorry? 19 Q: Why was Ms. Simon not released right 20 away from the parking lot at that point? 21 A: Once -- once we took her into custody 22 she was placed in the rear of another cruiser, I'm not 23 sure -- I'm not sure -- I can't comment which one. Then 24 I went to assist with the other officers. 25 It's my understanding that she was turned


1 over to officers who were from the area. I didn't 2 proceed with the arrest at that point. 3 Q: You agree, you're the one who 4 executed the arrest? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: And it's your evidence you had no 7 involvement in any discussions about whether to continue 8 to hold Ms. Simon in custody? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Are you aware whether any 11 investigation was commenced in order to determine whether 12 Ms. Simon had any involvement with the shooting that you 13 had heard over the radio? 14 A: I'm not aware of any. 15 Q: You didn't ask that any such 16 investigation occur? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And you had her name, Ms. Marcia 19 Simon -- 20 A: It -- it was provided to me, yes. 21 Q: -- you knew her name and her 22 identification? 23 A: No, it was provided verbally. 24 Q: Are you aware that Ms. Simon was 25 never charged with any offence with respect to that


1 incident? 2 A: I'm not aware of that. 3 Q: Did you do any follow up to find out 4 what had occurred to the woman that you arrested? 5 A: No, I did not. 6 Q: Did you do anything to follow up on 7 her request for an ambulance? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: Did you ask her where the injured 10 person was that she was concerned about? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: Or persons? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Have you ever been questioned by any 15 of your superiors about your involvement in the arrest of 16 Ms. Simon? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I take it you've never been 19 disciplined for your involvement in that incident? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Are you aware of any apology that has 22 ever been made to Marcia Simon or Melva George? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you accept now that these two (2) 25 women were completely innocent of any involvement in the


1 shooting? 2 A: Of any involvement in the shooting, 3 yes. 4 Q: And do you agree that in retrospect, 5 looking back now, that the pursuit of Marcia Simon and 6 her mother and holding them at gunpoint, that that was an 7 unfortunate event? 8 A: Yes, it was an unfortunate event. 9 Q: Now, one final area with respect to 10 the T-shirt -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- that you said you purchased. Were 13 you aware that an investigation was commenced by the OPP 14 into the creation of that T-shirt? 15 A: No, I was not aware at the time. 16 Q: Not aware at the time? 17 A: Just recently the -- from the 18 Commission here, I'm now aware of it, yes. 19 Q: Yeah. In preparation for this 20 Inquiry you learned that there was an investigation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So I take it that you were never 23 interviewed as part of any investigation? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And you weren't aware of any memo or


1 -- or callout for OPP members who had such a T-shirt to 2 come forward? 3 A: I'm not familiar with any, no. 4 Q: Have you ever seen a T-shirt that 5 says, "I support Ken Deane"? 6 A: No, I have not. 7 Q: Have you ever seen a pin with the TRU 8 symbol and Ken Deane's badge number? 9 A: No, I have not. 10 Q: Thank you very much, Officer. Thank 11 you, Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Ms. Esmonde. 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 15 just before Mr. Ross gets up, the Registrar brought to my 16 attention that when I referred to Tab 14 I neglected to 17 make it an exhibit. But I did refer to the two -- it's a 18 2 page excerpt from the statement of Harry Marissen, 19 Inquiry Document Number 1000359. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 21 an exhibit now? 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: And it's not an 23 exhibit now is my understanding, so. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can I have 25 an exhibit number?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-1692, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1692: Document Number 1000359. 4 Statement of Cst. Marissen, 5 September 07, 1995. 6 7 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, I 8 -- I'm not sure what basis there would be for making this 9 an exhibit. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 11 indicated that before, Ms. Jones and as I said we have a 12 loose interpretation of what we're prepared to make an 13 exhibit and I'm prepared to make it an exhibit. 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. It doesn't elevate its weight because it's an 17 exhibit. 18 Yes, Mr. Ross...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It just 23 makes it easier for us, Ms. Jones, when we're writing a 24 report if we had the exhibits before us in that way. 25 Yes, Mr. Ross...?


1 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. Mr. Commissioner, I think I'll be shorter 3 than I had anticipated. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thanks to -- to 6 previous counsel. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 9 Q: Officer Lorch, my name is Anthony 10 Ross and I represent the Residents of Aazhoodena. Now, 11 sir, I can tell you I'm not going to be referring to any 12 new documents and there's just few areas I want to clean 13 up for the benefit of the Inquiry. 14 I understand that you worked in the Pickle 15 Lake Region for how long? 16 A: Approximately two and a half ( 2 1/2) 17 years. 18 Q: Two and a half (2 1/2) years. Now, 19 my understanding is that the population in the Pickle 20 Lake area is around six/seven hundred (600/700)? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And down the Indian Reserve, what did 23 you -- what did you report it as? 24 A: Osnaburg. Osnaburg is the First 25 Nations territory located south of Pickle Lake.


1 Q: Yes. And they had a population about 2 around eight hundred (800). A little bigger than the 3 town itself? 4 A: Approximately six (6) or seven 5 hundred (700). 6 Q: Yeah. And did you spend a lot time 7 down at the Osnaburg Reserves? 8 A: Through the course of my duties, yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And I take it, sir, that in 10 there you had an opportunity to then -- as your evidence 11 is that you -- you met the Chief at the time, Roy 12 Komminiwash? 13 A: At the time, yes. 14 Q: And did you spend any time on the 15 Reserve with Roy Komminiwash? 16 A: No. 17 Q: I see. You just met him? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Just on one (1) occasion? 20 A: On the one occasion when I was first 21 introduced to Mr. Komminiwash. I did -- I did bump into 22 him a couple of other times. 23 Q: Yes. And from the few times that you 24 met him, would you agree with me that he would be 25 classified as a very, very traditional Indian Chief?


1 If you can't comment just tell me you 2 can't. 3 A: I can't comment on that. 4 Q: Okay, that's fine. Now you also 5 spent time with Walter Johnansen? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: A lot of time with Walter Johnansen, 8 am I correct? 9 A: A fair amount of time. 10 Q: Well, over the two and a half (2 1/2) 11 years you worked there as a police officer, about how 12 many OPP officers would have been located in Pickle Lake? 13 A: Approximately seven (7). 14 Q: Six (6) or seven (7)? 15 A: Six (6) or seven (7), yes. 16 Q: Yes. And you had the Johnansen 17 brothers as -- as a First Nations officers? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: So there -- and they operated from 20 the facilities in Pickle -- Pickle Lake? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: So you have been seeing them on an 23 ongoing basis? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Developed a fairly good relationship


1 with them? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you think that your relationship 4 with them was good enough that you could have driven with 5 them with the T-shirt that you purchased; the one with 6 the feather? Would you have done that? 7 A: I -- the predac -- predecess -- 8 Q: I -- I know that. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: I know that, but I'm saying to you, 11 sir, I -- I'm putting it to you that you knew it was in 12 poor taste to buy that T-shirt. 13 A: As I -- as I had indicated, I became 14 aware a short time afterwards I'm not sure of the exact 15 time, but a short time afterwards I became aware that it 16 was -- that it was a controversial T-shirt. 17 Q: Well, now more than controversial, 18 I'm suggesting to it was in poor taste to buy it; do you 19 agree? 20 A: When I purchased it, it was sight 21 unseen, sir. 22 Q: I see. And when you saw it first, 23 how long did you keep it? 24 A: It was a short period of time. I 25 can't comment on how long it was.


1 Q: Short period of time? You could be 2 talking centuries, then it might be five (5) years. 3 A: No. 4 Q: How long? 5 A: Perhaps three (3) months, four (4) 6 months. 7 Q: And during that three (3) month or 8 four (4) month period, do you agree with me that if you 9 had that T-shirt on and Walter Johnansen saw you in it, 10 that you'd be embarrassed? 11 A: I never wore the shirt, sir. 12 Q: I didn't say that you wore it, I'm 13 suggesting to you, sir -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- that it was an embarrassment to 16 you if you were going to be with a First Nations officer 17 like Walter Johnansen. Would you agree with that? 18 A: My -- I -- the question I -- it's an 19 interpretational question on the T-shirt. I haven't even 20 given it much thought. 21 Q: Well, that's good enough, sir, that's 22 good enough. Now, tell me, your partner on the 6th of 23 September, 1995, that was Officer Bell; am I correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Yes. And do you know whether or not


1 he has given evidence here so far? 2 A: I don't believe so. 3 Q: I see. Now, there is -- there are a 4 couple of other short matters I want to ask you about. 5 Now, on the 5th of September you indicated 6 that you heard this machine gun fire? 7 A: I can't say machine gun. 8 Q: Fully automatic? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Fully automatic? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And about fifteen (15) 13 rounds? 14 A: Fifteen (15) to twenty (20) rounds, 15 approximately. 16 Q: And how many bursts did you hear, 17 just one (1)? 18 A: I heard one (1) burst, sir. 19 Q: I see. And you're going to come and 20 you're going to be telling this Commission that from one 21 (1) burst, fifteen (15) rounds, that you can say it was 22 automatic fire? 23 A: That's why I -- I said approximately. 24 There was one (1) burst of sequential rounds being fired 25 in very close sequence, very close sequence.


1 Q: Now, as a -- as a member of the -- 2 the OPP, have you ever heard the term a fredishwar 3 (phonetic)? 4 A: I'm sorry, sir? 5 Q: Fredishwar. Have you ever heard that 6 term? 7 A: I've never heard of that before, no. 8 Q: Okay. Let me tell you -- let me ask 9 you if you -- and I'll -- I'll give you the experience. 10 Where officers fire sequentially using 11 something like a bolt action single -- single bullet 12 rifle, just a sequence. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: You ever heard of that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: I see. But you would agree with me, 17 sir, that if you've got fifteen (15) or twenty (20) 18 people who decided that they're going to stand in a line 19 and fire one (1) after the other, it's going to be almost 20 the same as if it was a -- a -- what you see as a semi -- 21 as an automatic fire? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Why not? 24 A: The timing -- the timing was perfect 25 for the -- for the fully automatic that I heard.


1 Q: So what you heard -- 2 A: I -- I don't -- 3 Q: -- that one (1) burst was consistent 4 with other automatic fire that you had heard on the 5 range? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I see. But you hadn't fired 8 yourself? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, we have all been down by the 15 beach and we've been down around September, and it always 16 appears to be pretty windy down in that open area from 17 the lake. Has this been your experience? 18 A: I've only been down in that location 19 a couple of times. I can't comment on -- 20 Q: So you can't comment? You -- you 21 didn't -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- take any note of it? 24 A: No. 25 Q: I see. Now, that night when you


1 followed the car with Marcia Simon, my understand -- 2 first thing is, you know where Outer Drive is, am I 3 correct, because your evidence was that you had a 4 checkpoint set up at Outer Drive? 5 A: I'd have to refresh my memory with a 6 map which one Outer Drive is. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Outer Drive is the eastern boundary 11 of what used to be the Military Camp. 12 A: Okay. Yes. 13 Q: So you know where that is? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you know where Highway 21 -- and 16 Highway 21 is the other boundary -- 17 A: East/west, yes. 18 Q: -- east/west? And Army Camp Road 19 north/south? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Now, when you were following the car 22 with Marcia Simon, had you passed Outer Drive before you 23 turned your lights on? 24 A: As I had indicated, I believe that 25 the -- the distance between Army Camp Road and the end


1 location, I'm -- I'm not -- I'm -- did I even indicate? 2 I just -- 3 Q: You suggested it was about 4 4 kilometres? 5 A: Okay. Yes. Yes -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- approximately the halfway point. 8 I'm not sure, the restaurant and gas station, if that's 9 on the inter -- is that on that intersection you're 10 referring to, sir? 11 Q: No, sir -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- as a matter of fact, just to let 14 you know, my understanding is that if you start at Army 15 Camp Road and Highway 21 -- 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: -- and you keep going east, you come 18 to Outer Drive? 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: And then there is an open -- a very 21 large open lot and then you get up to the Port Franks 22 Road where the -- the phone booth is; is that your 23 recollection? 24 A: It -- my recollection is we had the 25 lights activated for approximately half the duration


1 between Army Camp Road and the ending location at the 2 restaurant. I -- 3 Q: Okay. Fine. That's -- that's 4 helpful. So it was within the Outer Drive area that your 5 lights were deactivated? 6 A: I can't say the exact location. 7 Q: I see. Now, what made you believe 8 that these people who were operating this motor vehicle 9 were aware that your lights were on? 10 A: The emergency lights? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Just the fact that we were behind and 13 at nighttime, the way the lighting, it illuminates the 14 vehicle and you can see the -- the lighting. 15 Q: So you assumed that they realized 16 that your lights were on? 17 A: If it was -- I am -- I was satisfied 18 that -- that the driver of the vehicle in front ought to 19 have been aware of a vehicle behind with emergency 20 lighting. 21 Q: I see. Now, did you have a siren in 22 the car? 23 A: Yes, there was a siren. 24 Q: Was it activated? 25 A: I don't recall.


1 Q: You don't recall if the siren was 2 activated? 3 A: No, I do not. 4 Q: I see. Now, you said that within the 5 vicinity of the phone booth, that Maria Simon was placed 6 under arrest? 7 A: Yes. Yes. 8 Q: And my understanding that you -- you 9 -- you -- you read something from a card to her? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Could you tell us exactly what you 12 said to her? Have you got the card still you? 13 A: I have the exact card, sir. 14 Q: Yes, and -- 15 A: When I'm done with a notebook I 16 staple the exact card in the back of it. 17 Q: Okay. Well, just tell us what you 18 said? 19 A: "I am arresting you for failing to 20 stop for police..." 21 Just one second. To clarify, your 22 question is what? I didn't read this to her at the phone 23 booth. This was -- from the card was read to her in the 24 back of the cruiser. 25 Q: I see. Well when in the back of the


1 cruiser, what did you say to her, exactly? 2 A: Okay. 3 "I am arresting you for failing to stop 4 for police. It is my duty to inform 5 you that you have the right to retain 6 and instruct counsel without delay. 7 You have the right to telephone any 8 lawyer you wish. You also have the 9 right to free advice from a Legal Aid 10 lawyer. If you are charged with an 11 offence you may apply to the Ontario 12 Legal Aid Plan for assistance. 1-800- 13 265-0451 is a toll free number that 14 will put you in contact with a Legal 15 Aid duty counsel lawyer for free legal 16 advice right now. Do you understand?" 17 Then -- then there's another -- then is 18 says: 19 "Do you wish to call a lawyer now?" 20 Q: And when you said, "do you wish to 21 call a lawyer now," what did she say? 22 A: First of all, after I said, "do you 23 understand," she -- 24 Q: She asked you to read it again? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Yes. And then when you spoke about a 2 lawyer; what did she say? 3 A: She said -- just one second, please. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: She advised that she wanted to call a 8 lawyer. 9 Q: Yes. Now, when you -- when you 10 advised her that she could call a lawyer without delay, 11 and then she said, yes, she wanted to call a lawyer; the 12 phone booth was right there, why didn't you allow her to 13 go there and call a lawyer? 14 A: The -- the client lawyer 15 confidentiality, there's no way that I could possibly 16 afford -- afford privacy. 17 Q: Wasn't that her determination, sir? 18 I'm saying to you, without delay, you tell her, You can 19 call without delay. 20 Was that merely perfunctory that, as a 21 matter of fact, you said that to her because you're 22 supposed to say it and now you're going to take her back 23 to the police station? 24 A: I'm sorry, your question? 25 Q: Without delay?


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: And I'm saying to you that you told 3 her she could call a lawyer without delay; she said, yes 4 she wanted to call a lawyer, and I'm asking you why 5 didn't you let her call a lawyer then? 6 A: For one, she is -- she is under 7 arrest, she's in the back of a cruiser, we can't escort a 8 prisoner over to a phone booth on the side of the wall 9 again. 10 Q: So this statement, call without delay 11 was not a serious statement then? 12 A: The first reasonable opportunity to 13 afford her such, was -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 15 Jones -- that's fine. 16 THE WITNESS: -- was the way I 17 interpreted it. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 20 Q: I see. Now the other thing is, I 21 understand that -- that when you were taking her back -- 22 where -- where was she taken; back to Forest? 23 A: I have no idea. 24 Q: I see. But wherever she was being 25 taken -- her mother was taken with her?


1 A: That's my understanding. 2 Q: At her mother's request? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: I see. And is it the standard 5 practice that if somebody is arrested, that they can 6 invite company to go along with them? 7 A: It's -- it's -- it has happened in 8 the past. 9 Q: It usually happens with young 10 offenders; am I correct? 11 A: I -- I can't say exact particulars, 12 but I know I have escorted people in my cruiser before 13 that have been under arrest. 14 Q: I see. And the other thing that I 15 found interesting is that you said that Melva George gave 16 you permission to search the car? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was it her car? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Was it -- was she the driver? 21 A: She was the passenger. 22 Q: And a passenger can give you the 23 authorization to search a car? 24 A: I don't recall who -- who owned the 25 vehicle, sir.


1 Q: I see. Those are my questions. I 2 just wanted to clear up on them. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Ross. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 afternoon, Mr. Falconer. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good afternoon, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 14 Q: Constable Lorch, my name is Julian 15 Falconer. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: I represent Aboriginal Legal Services 18 of Toronto. Constable Lorch, from everything you've told 19 previous counsel, in terms of this pursuit, it had come 20 on the heels of you hearing words to the affect of, Shots 21 were fired, correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: You perceived it as a high risk 24 situation, fair? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And as an officer of some experience, 2 you know that a number of obligations are on you when you 3 are faced in a high risk incident, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that's for both officer safety 6 and safety of the public including the subject of the 7 chase, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And one of those obligations for 10 example is -- is if at all possible to ensure other 11 officer support, correct? Get some backup? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And of course, we see this at Tab 11, 14 there's a reference to Gransden being behind you. Do you 15 remember in the -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- Region 1? 18 A: Yes, I remember. 19 Q: It's P-1254 and it's at your Tab 11. 20 A: My Tab 11, which page is it? 21 Q: It's the first page of that. Do you 22 see that? 23 A: Okay. This is -- I'm sorry, this is 24 the -- 25 Q: P-1254, Tab 11.


1 A: Okay, yes. 2 Q: Do you see halfway down: 3 "we've -- that's a second cruiser 4 following us?" 5 That's you asking that questions, right? 6 A: I -- I believe that's Constable Bell. 7 8 Q: In the car with you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. And -- and so the point is, 11 you and Bell are ensuring you're getting officer support? 12 A: We called in the pursuit -- 13 Q: Yes, and then halfway down, it says, 14 Gransden: 15 "Yeah, 1 District behind you. 16 Gransden..." 17 A: From what I read it doesn't 18 necessarily request it. He's just confirming that it is 19 a cruiser following us. 20 Q: All right. And would you agree with 21 me though that that's consistent with procedures in 22 getting officer support? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And there would be some comfort that 25 right off the get go, you would have communicated to


1 Comms that's it's happening, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Because that's also an obligation; 4 you don't go and do this on your own, right? 5 A: After the point where you're -- where 6 you become -- you realize that the vehicle's not going to 7 stop, then you call it in. 8 Q: Are you saying that you first do a 9 chase and then halfway or at the end of the chase, you 10 call it in? 11 A: No. We activated the emergency 12 lights, after a short period -- 13 Q: And then you -- 14 A: -- of time where a normal person 15 would have stopped the vehicle, then when I -- then -- 16 then it was called in -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- that the vehicle was not stopping. 19 Q: Wouldn't you agree though that when 20 you first saw the vehicle leaving the Army Base this was 21 a vehicle that you had the suspicions about, that's why 22 you activated your lights? Yes? 23 A: I'm sorry? 24 Q: You had suspicions that this vehicle 25 was somehow tied to the firing of shots, that's why you


1 activated -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- your lights? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So you perceived it right from the 6 get-go as a high-risk incident, correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Right. And so your normal 9 procedures, when you perceive a potential high-risk 10 incident, is to call it in, right? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: So you would have called this in 13 almost immediately, right? You'd have no reason not to? 14 A: I don't know the exact timeframe when 15 it was called in. 16 Q: Would you agree with me it would be 17 consistent with your procedures and your experience as a 18 police officer in a potential high-risk incident such as 19 this, you'd call it in immediately; you'd have no reason 20 not to? 21 A: I -- as I say I'm not -- I don't know 22 exactly when it was called in. 23 Q: Fair enough, but I'm now going back 24 to your procedures. 25 A: Hmm hmm.


1 Q: Again, would you agree with me that 2 in a high-risk incident -- this was high risk, yes -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- that you would have no reason not 5 to call it in immediately, correct? 6 A: Constable Bell was operating the 7 radio. As I've indicated before, there was an enormous 8 amount of talking on the radio. I'm not sure when he 9 would have been able to get through. I'm not sure -- I 10 don't know when in the timeline that he advised the 11 Communications Centre -- 12 Q: Sitting -- 13 A: -- of -- of the pursuit. 14 Q: Fair enough. Sitting here -- you -- 15 you've given evidence as to your recollection in the 16 incident, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Sitting here today, can you just help 19 me? Can you think of a reason, sitting here today, that 20 you would have or Bell would have delayed calling it in? 21 A: Can I think of...? 22 Q: A reason that Bell would have delayed 23 calling it in? 24 A: Possibly the radio -- the radio air 25 time was -- was occupied.


1 Q: Other than that? 2 A: I -- I can't -- I can't speculate on 3 the actions of another officer. I -- 4 Q: No, sir, you were there. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Now, I'm just asking you, your 7 experience sitting there -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- in that car with Bell right beside 10 you -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- I just want to know, other than 13 the radio chatter, can you think if a reason for delaying 14 calling it in? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I -- I -- no, I don't know. 19 Q: Thank you. Thank you. And would you 20 agree with me that in a situation where you're -- you're 21 presented with a vehicle like this one presented to you, 22 in your mind you're thinking there could be guns in those 23 vehicles, right? 24 A: When -- when the vehicle left it was 25 -- it was leaving -- it alerted my suspicion that


1 possibly it was from there. 2 Q: Right, and -- 3 A: That -- 4 Q: -- and you turned on your lights? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Because there could be guns in those 7 vehicles? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Right. And so one (1) of your 10 responsibilities is not to go it alone, correct? One (1) 11 of your responsibilities is to not go it alone? 12 A: Not go it alone -- 13 Q: Yes, as in terms of other officer 14 support, correct? 15 A: When there is a pursuit called in, 16 usually another vehicle will assist. 17 Q: Right. And so the idea isn't to get 18 the assistance way down the line, the idea is to get the 19 assistance as early as possible, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. So you've mentioned this 22 possible radio chatter, but would you agree with me that 23 that's speculation. You don't have a memory of Bell 24 turning to you and saying, There's so much chatter I'm 25 going to wait to call this in?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I -- I interpreted the way you were 4 phrasing the question before was for me to speculate, you 5 were ask -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: I just wanted to know if you actually 9 remembered a delay and you -- 10 A: No, I do not remember, as I've 11 indicated. 12 Q: Right. So you're -- and -- and when 13 we look at Exhibit P-1254 we see kind of a good procedure 14 which is, you know, We were coming up Army Camp Road, we 15 were in low speed pursuit, do you want us to continue to 16 attempt to stop the vehicle? 17 So you're looking for direction from 18 seniors, yes? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Or to Comms, yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then secondly you're being told 23 about the backup that's coming. Whether you ask for it 24 or not you've got backup: Gransden, right? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to ask if Mr. 5 Millar could play the tape, just the beginning portion. 6 I expect it to be very short. 7 It's for a reason, Mr. Commissioner. 8 If Mr. Millar could play the tape of P- 9 12454 for the Witness, right up until the... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Yeah, if you cld start it again, 14 please? 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 17 18 [Delta 2411 = Constable Steve Lorch] 19 [Alpha = Unknown] 20 [Lima 2 = TOC] 21 [CP = Lima 1] 22 [Prisoner Van = Constable Denis Leblanc] 23 24 Low Speed Pursuit of Marcia Simon (cars and Lima 2) 25 23:14 hrs.


1 Delta 2411: Lima 2 from Delta. 2 Alpha: Delta, this is Alpha. We read you. We're 3 by the TOC. Go ahead. 4 Delta 2411: Delta, as we were coming up Army Camp 5 Road, a vehicle left the Army Base. We 6 are in low-speed pursuit. Do you wish us 7 to continue to attempt to stop this 8 vehicle? East on 21. 9 Lima 2: 10-4 to the unit pursuing. Continue to 10 follow. 11 Delta 2411: 10-4. Licence 935 HHT, Ontario marker. 12 Lima 2: That's 10-4. Continue to follow. Do not 13 light up. 14 Delta 2411: 10-4. We've deactivated our lights and 15 we'll continue to follow. Confirm: 16 that's a second cruiser following us? 17 Unknown: Gransden and ... inaudible ... yeah. 1 18 District ERT behind you. Gransden and ... 19 inaudible... 20 Delta 2411: Lima 2, Delta. 21 Lima 2: Go ahead, Delta, Lima 2. Go ahead. 22 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... red Nova. 23 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2, go ahead. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED)


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 3 Q: Stop it there, please. Could I ask - 4 - Mr. Miller has by his watch forty-seven (47) seconds 5 elapsing between the time the call-in happens and the 6 time that you say, "We've deactivated our lights", forty- 7 seven (47) seconds. 8 Now we can replay it and you can time it 9 with your watch if you'd like; do you have any problem 10 with that? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Mr. Miller tells me that's actually 15 on the timer from the Real Player; do you have any 16 problem with that estimate? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Now, there's two (2) of you in the 19 cruiser, so one (1) of you is driving and the other is 20 doing the comms, right? 21 A: No, that's Constable Bell's voice and 22 he was operating the vehicle. 23 Q: All right. Where are you? 24 A: In the passenger seat. 25 Q: All right. So you -- I take it you


1 have access to the communications? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. So there's two (2) of you 4 in the vehicle, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So if one (1) of you can't use the 7 radio, the other can, correct? 8 If one (1) of you can't use the radio the 9 other can, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Now, the call, according to P- 12 1254 and Mr. Miller's advice, from the time you announced 13 that you are in a, quote, "low speed pursuit," close 14 quotes, to the time that you deactivate your lights, is 15 forty-seven (47) seconds. Now, let me stop you there. 16 You've told us that you knew of no reason 17 you would not immediately notify communications of the 18 existence of this low speed pursuit in the high risk 19 incident, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Remembering telling us that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And your evidence hasn't changed in 24 that regard, has it? 25 A: No.


1 Q: All right. Let's assume that you, in 2 fact, do your job and you do notify, as reflected in P- 3 1254, would you agree with me, on the sheer time passage 4 from this radio transcript, announcing your pursuit, to 5 the time you deactivate your lights, we are talking 6 forty-seven (47) seconds that Ms. Simon would have had to 7 pick up your lights and gain or gather the obligations 8 you say she had to stop; would you agree with that? 9 Just -- 10 A: No, as I've indicated before, we were 11 following the vehicle for a distance before it was 12 radioed in. 13 Q: No, sir, I actually asked you about 14 that and you said that you knew of no reason that you 15 would delay calling it in from the time you started your 16 pursuit. You would know -- you knew of no reason. You 17 said maybe chatter, but I asked you if you knew about 18 chatter, you said you didn't actually know about chatter. 19 I asked you. I said from the time you 20 turned those lights on, you were worried about a high 21 risk incident; do remember me asking you that? 22 Do you remember me asking you that? 23 A: I'm sorry, it seems to be two (2) 24 questions -- 25 Q: Let's back up.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Sure, I'll rephrase it. 3 A: Thank you. 4 Q: Do you remember my putting to you 5 that from the time you turned on those lights, you knew 6 this was a potential high risk incident? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you agree that you -- you would 9 have suspected it was a high risk incident from the time 10 you turned your lights on? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And that you knew you had an 13 obligation to contact Communications and, in order to 14 provide for Officer safety and the safety of the subject, 15 to ensure whatever level of backup was appropriate; do 16 you remember saying that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Now, I asked you: Well, 19 would there be any reason for delaying that? And you 20 said you knew of none, though you could speculate about 21 radio chatter. 22 Do you remember saying that? 23 A: I did. 24 Q: Okay. So what I'm going to put to 25 you, sir, is so far, on your recollection, from the time


1 that you activated your lights you were in a high risk 2 incident for which you knew of no reason to delay calling 3 it in? That's all I'm putting to you. 4 A: And I'm going to advise that the 5 vehicle weaving from there was a high risk, it alerted 6 us. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: The fact that the vehicle did not 9 stop, continued to elevate our height of -- of concern 10 with the vehicle. 11 Q: Did not stop and answer to what? 12 A: We activated the lights to stop the 13 vehicle. 14 Q: Right. And I put to you, at the time 15 you activated your lights, you saw this as a high risk 16 incident for which you had an obligation to immediately 17 notify Communications and you agreed with me. 18 Do you remember agreeing with me? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just because 20 he agreed with you, it doesn't mean he did it right away. 21 I mean I'm missing some -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no, no. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'm 24 missing something here. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: This is -- this is --


1 and I'll complete the -- I'll complete the -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 3 missing something. I'm trying to follow you. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fair enough. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: Do you, again backing up, the 8 activation of your lights in a high risk incident 9 represented a circumstance for which you had an 10 obligation as best as you could to contact Communications 11 immediately; you knew that then? 12 A: I believe that the high risk that 13 you're referring to became more high risk when the 14 vehicle, subsequent to the vehicle failing to stop at 15 that point. 16 Q: Now, backing up -- 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Now backing up. Let -- let me see if 19 I can unpack that answer for a little bit. First of all, 20 is it your evidence that when you turned on your lights - 21 - is it your evidence that when you turned on your lights 22 you weren't worried there was a car with guns in it? Is 23 that your evidence? 24 A: No, that's not my evidence. 25 Q: No. When you turned on your lights,


1 the reason you turned on your lights is you thought those 2 might be one of the cars with guns in it, correct? 3 A: Yes, that's correct. 4 Q: All right. And at that moment that 5 you turned on your lights and thought that was a car with 6 guns in it, that was a high risk incident, yes? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I asked you before: Isn't it 9 true that when you are presented with a high risk 10 incident like that, from the point of view of officer 11 safety or public safety, you have a duty to notify the 12 Comm Centre immediately and you agreed that you had that 13 duty, agreed? 14 A: You would normally advise, yes. 15 Q: Okay. Thanks. That's it. That's 16 all I need. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Thank you. Now if, this is 19 hypothetically, if you complied with your duty to notify 20 Comm Centre immediately, you'd agree that that 21 notification is reflected in 1254? 22 If you complied with your duty to notify 23 them immediately it's reflected in 1254, isn't it? 24 A: I have also indicated that this is 25 Constable Bell's transcript of his verbalization and --


1 Q: Right. You wouldn't do the same 2 thing he's doing? He was verbalizing for both of you. 3 You were both in the car. 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Right. So this would reflect, if you 6 complied with that duty to notify immediately, P-1254 7 would reflect that immediate discharge of the duty when 8 it says, "do you wish us to continue to attempt to stop 9 this vehicle", right? 10 A: I can read that that's what it says, 11 yes. 12 Q: Right. And that reflects your 13 notification, doesn't it? 14 "We are in low speed pursuit"; that's your 15 notification. Do you see it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And you'd agree with me 18 that that's your notification and that there is no 19 notification -- I've asked Mr. Millar about it, there's 20 no notification recorded elsewhere in the logger tapes. 21 1254 represents your first notification, do you accept 22 that? 23 A: If that's before the Commission 24 already, then I'll accept that. 25 Q: All right. At 23:14 and it's Exhibit


1 12 -- P-1254, now what I'm putting to you is if you 2 complied with the duty to immediately notify, then your 3 lights would have been on for some total of approximately 4 forty-seven (47) seconds which is the lapse of time from 5 the beginning of the call to where you say "we've 6 deactivated our lights." 7 Isn't that so? 8 A: I believe I've already -- I've 9 already indicated that I believe that the -- that it was 10 called in once we became aware that the vehicle was not 11 stopping. 12 Q: Thank you. I have your evidence. 13 Now I am right though on one thing aren't 14 I, that if you only waited forty-seven (47) seconds, if 15 you turned your lights on and then got a direction to 16 turn them off within forty-seven (47) seconds, if you 17 only gave Marcia Simon forty-seven (47) seconds to know 18 she had a responsibility to stop, if that happened, that 19 wouldn't be enough time would it? 20 A: I stop vehicles on a regular basis, 21 traffic stops, and vehicles stop within twelve (12) to 22 fifteen (15) seconds. 23 Q: All right. So I take it the 24 corollary is true that in your mind if what you did give 25 her was forty-seven (47) seconds, in your mind that would


1 be ample time for her to know to stop? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Okay. Now, you made mention of a low 4 speed pursuit. Do you see that? 5 Do you see that? It's right at the start 6 of the tap. It's right there: 7 "We are in --" 8 A: Once again it's not my mention. 9 That's -- that's a transcript of Constable Bell's voice. 10 Q: Sitting beside you speaking. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Driving the car beside you? 13 A: Driving the car that I'm in. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall disagreeing with 17 his interpretation of it being a low speed pursuit? 18 A: No, I have indicated. 19 Q: Fair enough. So this forty-seven 20 (47) seconds, isn't in the context of somebody flying 21 down the road at high speeds with you chasing behind 22 them, right, is it? 23 A: What's the question, I'm sorry. 24 Q: This pursuit is not in the context of 25 somebody flying down the road with you flying after them,


1 is it? 2 A: A pursuit -- the pursuit is the fact 3 that the vehicle is not stopping for us. 4 Q: In the forty-seven (47) seconds 5 reflected in this tape? 6 A: Inclusive of the forty-seven (47) 7 seconds; that's correct. 8 Q: Would you agree with me that if 9 Marcia Simon committed a criminal offence or there were 10 grounds to believe Marcia Simon committed a criminal 11 offence, that one (1) of the entitlements you would have 12 in the circumstances would be to search her car, 13 especially if you had grounds to believe there were guns 14 in it? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You wouldn't have to ask for a 17 seventy (70) year old woman's passenger's consent would 18 you? 19 A: I believe if you look at it I 20 indicated that it was as a -- as a courtesy that I asked. 21 Q: A courtesy. I want to understand 22 high-risk incidents, and My Friends haven't asked about 23 this but I'm going to. 24 Do you often leave -- you suspected a gun 25 in the car; that was your worry, right? That was the


1 worry, there were guns in the car? 2 A: That was a possibility. 3 Q: Yes, and that's why -- in fact, if 4 you look at your Will Say at Tab 12, you actually refer 5 to three (3) cars. You see the -- I'll take you there in 6 a minute but take my word for it you refer to two (2) 7 other cruisers. 8 Do you want me to take you to where it 9 says that? 10 A: If you could show me this, please? 11 Q: Sure. The first page is P-1689. 12 It's the first page Tab 12 second to last paragraph. You 13 noted that two (2) other cruisers had pulled up to the 14 suspect vehicle on an angle in a high risk fashion. 15 A: I don't -- that's -- that's -- 16 Q: I apologize, P-1690. Do you see 17 that? Second to last paragraph: 18 "He noted that two (2) other cruisers 19 pulled up to the suspect vehicle on an 20 angle in a high-risk fashion." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: One (1) moment, please. I -- I can't 23 find that in my -- 24 Q: It's the Will Say of Provincial 25 Constable Steven Lorch, second to last paragraph, first


1 page, there's a series of bullet dots. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Quote: 4 "He noted that two (2) other cruisers 5 pulled up to the suspect vehicle on an 6 angle in a high-risk fashion. He 7 yelled at the driver of the vehicle the 8 police challenge and advised them to 9 put their hands up." 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: All right. Now, is it possible there 13 are three (3) vehicles? 14 A: No, it's not. 15 Q: All right. So this is a mistake? 16 A: Yes, it is. 17 Q: Okay. Now, having said that, either 18 way, you're in a high-risk take-down scenario and you 19 suspect guns in the car? When you issue the police 20 challenge, that police challenge, first of all, isn't in 21 a spoken term, is it? 22 You're taught how to issue a police 23 challenge and you're to issue it loudly in a commanding 24 way; is that correct? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Could you please do it for Mr. 2 Commissioner? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, he 4 doesn't have to do that. I don't need that. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, he's -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's just 7 unnecessary, Mr. Falconer. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: If it's not 9 helpful, then it's not helpful. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: You're taught to do it loudly and in 13 a commanding way, right? You're taught to yell it, 14 correct? 15 A: I have to articulate it properly so 16 that the individual can understand and hear you. 17 Q: Loud, correct? 18 A: Whatever the scenario dictates. 19 Q: And in doing so -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We had a 21 simulation recently. You and I were both there and we 22 saw an example of it, Mr. Falconer. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right.


1 That's why I'm surprised the officer wouldn't agree with 2 the yell. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we saw 4 it, we heard it. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: And at the top of the next page: 8 "He observed the driver to continue to 9 use the phone and he again yelled at 10 her." 11 Do you see that at the top of the next 12 page? 13 "He again yelled at her." 14 Top of the next page? 15 A: Yes, I read that. 16 Q: All right. Now, that "he" is you, 17 correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Now, all I want to know 20 is this: There is no chance, is there, in this potential 21 gun call, that you were going to leave a passenger in the 22 vehicle while you're issuing a police challenge to 23 somebody on the phone? 24 You expected both the passenger to leave 25 the vehicle with their hands up and the person on the


1 phone to put the phone down. You weren't going to leave 2 somebody in the car, were you? 3 A: The other constable, Bell, and the 4 second officer with Constable Gransden were dealing with 5 the other -- the passenger. 6 Q: And the challenge they would have 7 issued, the direction they would have issued to the 8 person whom they didn't know was seventy (70) or anything 9 else, was to get out of that vehicle in a certain fashion 10 with their hands showing; isn't that fair? That's 11 standard police procedure. 12 A: I can only comment on my activities 13 with the driver. 14 Q: I am now asking you to comment on 15 police procedure, can you do that for me? 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: All right. High-risk take-down 18 incident. I'm asking you: Standard police procedure is 19 to have the occupants of the vehicle leave the vehicle 20 with their hands displayed so the officers can see it -- 21 the hands, correct? 22 A: That is standard. 23 Q: And there is not distinction between 24 driver or passenger; they're both to get out of the car. 25 One (1) can use the gun while the other is on the phone;


1 isn't that true? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Right. So you would have expected, 4 whether you remember it or not, it was entirely in 5 keeping with standard police procedure that Melva would 6 have been expected to leave that vehicle with her hands 7 displayed, correct? 8 A: I've already indicated that I was 9 dealing with the driver. 10 Q: I asked you what she would have been 11 expected to do, I didn't ask you what you saw, that 12 according to procedure, she would have been expected to 13 leave the vehicle with her hands displayed, correct? 14 A: I would have expected her to be dealt 15 with appropriately by the Officers. 16 Q: You don't want to answer my question, 17 I take -- 18 A: I sorry, I don't understand the 19 question. 20 Q: You don't understand that in a high 21 risk take-down you don't leave a passenger of a vehicle 22 in the car, you don't understand that? 23 A: The passenger is involved with the 24 vehicle as well, that's correct. 25 Q: Right. And so you instruct that


1 passenger to leave the vehicle with their hands 2 displayed, that's part of your job? 3 A: I did not have any communication with 4 the driver at that time -- or the passenger at that time. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've asked 6 that question already Mr. Falconer -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Not only is the 8 repetition, Mr. Commissioner, a bit much, but the tone 9 and the nature I think is unfair and is inappropriate in 10 this Inquiry. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he's 12 moving on. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm moving on. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've used 15 up a good part of your time, Mr. Falconer -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I appreciate it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and I 18 hope this is important to you because -- carry on. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: You made reference to assisting, that 22 was the term you used, I listened carefully, assisting 23 Marcia Simon to the ground, do you remember saying that? 24 That was your evidence in-Chief to Mr. Worme -- 25 A: I'm just -- one (1) moment --


1 Q: -- that you and the other Officer 2 assisted Marcia Simon to the ground? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: You also say, in both the Will Say 5 and your notes, and you did it again in evidence, that 6 she struggled throughout, yes? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And then you said you didn't treat 9 her roughly in any manner at all, that was also your 10 words and your evidence, correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Am I to take from what 13 you said, that in circumstances where Marcia Simon was 14 struggling against you two (2) Officers and you were 15 putting her to the ground, that what you really were 16 doing was assisting her to the ground; is that your 17 evidence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: She wanted to go to the ground, she 20 was saying, Can you guys help me get to the ground; is 21 that right? 22 You were forcing her to the ground, you 23 weren't assisting her, were you? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 25 Jones...?


1 MS. KAREN JONES: Again, Mr. 2 Commissioner, I'm concerned about the tone and the 3 sarcasm. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: There's no sarcasm. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: It ought to be -- it 7 ought to be, Mr. Commissioner, and you've made this point 8 time and time again, that witnesses be treated fairly -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With 10 civility. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and respectfully and 12 with civility. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 14 agree. This is not -- 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: You were -- you forced Ms. Simon to 18 the ground, you did not assist her to the ground, 19 correct? 20 A: We assisted her to the ground. 21 Q: You assisted her. Would you agree 22 with me that, generally, under common English parlance, 23 assist means support, would you agree with that? Assist 24 means to help, would you agree with that? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. Did Marcia Simon ask you for 2 help to go to the ground? 3 A: No, she did not. 4 Q: Did she ask you for help to have her 5 hands cuffed behind her back? 6 A: No, she did not. 7 Q: All right. Did she ask you for help 8 to get the bruising she got from her arm? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Did she ask for 11 your help to get that? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Falconer, I would -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll withdraw the 15 question. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 17 right to proceed in this way with this Witness. So -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I accept 19 that. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: So, sir, I just want to finalize this 24 area. You'd agree with me that a better choice of words 25 than assisting Marcia Simon would be that in response to


1 your perception that she was struggling, you forced her 2 to the ground, using what you thought at the time was 3 lawful force, correct? 4 A: I stand by it when I say I assisted 5 her to the ground. 6 Q: Now, in terms of the position that 7 Melva -- the position that Melva George was in, I just 8 want to understand that clearly. You called in and asked 9 for direction, you asked if you should bring her to the 10 Forest Detachment; do you remember doing that? 11 A: No, I do not. 12 Q: All right. Let's go to the 13 transcript then -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, this 15 Witness' evidence has been clear that he did not -- he 16 was not involved after the original arrest -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 19 right. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and there is no 21 evidence that this Witness, at all, was the person who 22 contacted the Comm Centre to get directions. That is not 23 his evidence. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize and I-- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: It has not been put to


1 him at all clearly. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 Ms. Jones. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: I apologize. That was not you 7 calling in to ask if Melva should be brought to the 8 Forest Detachment? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you know who it was? 11 A: No, I do not. 12 Q: All right. Did you think that Melva 13 George was under arrest? 14 A: It was not my understanding, no. 15 Q: All right. But apparently somebody 16 did, yes? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I -- 18 THE WITNESS: I -- 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: They were asked if they should bring 22 her to Forest. 23 A: I -- I... 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, two 25 (2) things; it's not his call and the second it's not


1 being put to him fairly. The -- the transmission clearly 2 says, you know, what's the status of the elderly woman 3 and the answer is, she's not under arrest. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 5 that's what it said. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And they asked, 7 should we bring her to Forest. I'll move on. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Do 9 you have -- 10 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder perhaps it 11 might be of some -- some assistance -- I think that the 12 difficulty perhaps, Commissioner, is that when you look 13 at P-1254, the Witness has already identified that the 14 voice that was on the tape that was just played moments 15 ago, it's identified as Delta 2411 and his name appears 16 on there. He identified it as Constable Bell. 17 And it's true that the Witness testified 18 that in fact he did not take custody of the -- of either 19 of the -- either the prisoner or the elderly passenger, 20 but it goes on, and we have Delta 2411 saying that we 21 apprehended the driver; saying also, we also have an 22 elderly passenger female. 23 So there's obviously some confusion. I 24 think that's the cause of the current discussion. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I appreciate My --


1 My Friend's reference to that because if you look, Mr. 2 Commissioner, at page 2, it says: 3 "Delta 2411, we also have an elderly 4 passenger female. Do you want her in 5 Forest as well?" 6 So -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. It 8 doesn't say she's under arrest but it says "we have her" 9 so. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: They -- and -- and all I'm asking is 13 you were the arrest -- you've already indicated that you 14 were the officers who were the initial arresting 15 officers; is that not right? 16 A: With -- 17 Q: With respect to Ms. Simon? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: You formed the grounds to believe 20 that a criminal offense had taken place otherwise you 21 wouldn't arrest her, correct? 22 A: A contravention of the Highway 23 Traffic Act. 24 Q: Yes. And you had a responsibility to 25 pass on those grounds to any other officer taking custody


1 of her. They can't take custody of her in the air, you 2 have to pass on the grounds for the arrest, correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Right. And what I want to know is 5 first of all, with Marcia Simon, to whom did you pass on 6 your grounds for arrest to? 7 A: Constable Gransden, I've already 8 indicated, that was with me during the arrest, took her, 9 I believe it was to her -- to his vehicle. Constable 10 Gransden had control of Ms. Simon. 11 Q: And you -- and you passed on your 12 grounds to him? 13 A: I didn't -- I didn't pass on my 14 grounds to him, no. 15 Q: You didn't. And let's look at page 2 16 where it says: 17 "Delta 2411 we have -- also have an 18 elderly passenger female. Do you want 19 her in Forest as well?" 20 Do you see that? Page 2 of Tab 11, 21 halfway down the page. 22 A: Yes, I can read that. 23 Q: "We also have -- is she in custody? 24 Negative. 25 Then she can go wherever she wants if


1 she's not in custody. 2 I'll drop her back at CFB Ipperwash." 3 Do you know who that was who would have 4 said that? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: Have you already identified it wasn't 7 your voice? Have you listened to the tape and identified 8 that it wasn't you who said this? 9 A: I know that wasn't me saying it. 10 Q: Well, I'm -- I'm not actually asking 11 about your memory. I'm concerned as to whether you've 12 actually ruled out your voice. 13 A: I believe I did hear a copy of this 14 tape and it's not me. 15 Q: All right. Now you'd agree with me 16 that whoever this officer is, you'd agree that no one is 17 required to go with police anywhere if they're not under 18 arrest? Would you agree with that? 19 No one is required to go with police 20 anywhere if they're not under arrest. 21 A: They're not -- they're not required 22 to, no. 23 Q: Did you pass on to whomever took 24 custody or whomever took charge of Ms. George, that she 25 in fact was not under arrest? Did you ever pass that on,


1 and that she was not -- and that she was free to do? 2 A: As I had said, I -- I dealt with her 3 a very short period of time. I spoke with her and... 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've used 5 up your time by the way, Mr. Falconer. I hope you're 6 coming to an end. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am moving onto a 8 new area, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: The points you're referring to may 14 have occurred while I was over at the phone, I'm not 15 sure. 16 Q: All right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's obvious 18 that he -- 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: Do you recall obtaining or seeing a - 22 - a pin that was a picture of a TRU symbol with the badge 23 number of Constable -- or sorry, the badge of Ken Deane 24 on it? 25 A: No. I've already indicated that I


1 haven't seen that. 2 Q: You've never seen the pin before? 3 A: No. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, I didn't hear Mr. Worme ask you 8 about Exhibit 1606, and that's because he's telling me he 9 didn't either, so I'm going to ask if 1606 can be shown 10 and you can confirm you haven't -- you haven't seen it. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What did he 15 say? I'm sorry, Mr. Worme, I don't remember. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And I'm -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: 1606 is -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 19 Let's get it done. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I hear that I'm 21 wrong in this. He had been asked about it so -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 23 somebody -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I'm in error, 25 so --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So that's 2 it? 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- that's fine. 4 That's fine. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: My last couple of questions is that 10 you were involved for a lengthy period of time in crowd 11 management; are you still involved in crowd management? 12 A: Yes, I am. 13 Q: All right. And -- and there's a new 14 name for the Crowd Management, is there not? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Public Order Unit? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. And as a member of the 19 Public Order Unit, can you assist me with something? We 20 heard from former Staff Sergeant Lacroix that he had a -- 21 he felt what was a unique experience from the point of 22 view of crowd control when it came to First Nations 23 persons defending what they perceived to be their -- 24 their birthright, their lands; that he felt that it was 25 very different than, for example, you know, the Edmonton


1 hockey fans in their riot scenario or soccer fans in a 2 riot scenario, that these people behaved in a very 3 different way, right? 4 That was the gist of Staff Sergeant 5 Lacroix's evidence, that in dealing with First Nations 6 persons they didn't confirm to how he expected unruly 7 crowds to behave, given the training they've had, all 8 right? 9 That was the gist of his evidence and you 10 can take my word for it because nobody's on their feet, 11 all right? 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Now, can you assist me? Have you 14 received any training, as today a member of the Public 15 Order Unit, on the issue of crowd control as it pertains 16 to issues such as First Nations occupations? 17 A: Not that I'm aware of. 18 Q: All right. As a member of the Public 19 Order Unit, have you received any training in the context 20 of public order control as it relates to First Nations 21 persons at all? 22 Forget just crowd control, just First 23 Nations persons, they're issues in the context of Public 24 Order Unit, have you received any training as it relates 25 to First Nations' issues?


1 A: Not that I'm aware. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Thank you. That completes my 6 questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Falconer. 9 Ms. Gleitman...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 afternoon, Ms. Gleitman. How long do you think you might 15 be? 16 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Commissioner, I 17 think I'll be about ten (10) to fifteen (15) minutes. 18 But I'm going to accommodate Mr. Millar who is asking in 19 relation to Exhibit P-1254, Constable Lorch this is at 20 Tab 11 of your materials, the transcript of the call that 21 we've all been hearing about. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 24 Q: As I understand it, what is being 25 proposed, Constable Lorch, is we're going to play this


1 call for you -- 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: Okay? You have indicated that in 4 relation to the first part of the call on page 1, that 5 that's not your voice, but we want you to listen to it 6 and indicate, if you can -- at the portions that relate 7 to Delta 2411 as we go through it, if you can indicate 8 who's voice it is. 9 If you're not able to do so, though, 10 obviously we don't want you to guess, indicate that 11 you're not able to do so. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 15 to go through the whole tape to do that or can -- 16 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: I believe -- I 17 believe that's what Mr. Millar wants. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I'm just trying 19 to figure out because of this -- the questions that have 20 arisen -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and initially I 23 thought that it was Constable Lorch's voice on the tape 24 or Constable Bell identified as D-24, or Delta 2411. 25 He said page 1 is his. I'm told that --


1 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Is Bell's. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- is Bell's, excuse 3 me, that page 2, which I thought was the same person, 4 I've just been told is not his. So I think that we need 5 to sort out whose -- because it's the same 2411 6 identified, I think we need to sort out whose voice it 7 is, if he can tell us. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 Then let's play the tape. 10 THE WITNESS: This is going to take more 11 than a couple of minutes. I might feel more comfortable 12 if I might take a moment to -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you need 14 a break? 15 THE WITNESS: If you don't mind please. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's 17 take a short break. 18 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Is this a good 19 time for the afternoon break, Commissioner? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 21 break. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 3:49 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:53 p.m.


1 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 3 resumed. Please be seated. 4 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Commissioner, to 5 make this a little bit easier on Constable Lorch, what 6 we're going to do is we'll play page 1 and then Mr. 7 Miller will pause it and we'll ask him if he's able to 8 identify 2411 and then we'll continue from there. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO CONTINUE) 14 15 [Delta 2411 = Constable Steve Lorch] 16 [Alpha = Unknown] 17 [Lima 2 = TOC] 18 [CP = Lima 1] 19 [Prisoner Van = Constable Denis Leblanc] 20 21 Low Speed Pursuit of Marcia Simon (cars and Lima 2) 22 23:14 hrs. 23 24 Delta 2411: Lima 2 from Delta. 25 Alpha: Delta, this is Alpha. We read you. We're


1 by the TOC. Go ahead. 2 Delta 2411: Delta, as we were coming up Army Camp 3 Road, a vehicle left the Army Base. We 4 are in low-speed pursuit. Do you wish us 5 to continue to attempt to stop this 6 vehicle? East on 21. 7 Lima 2: 10-4 to the unit pursuing. Continue to 8 follow. 9 Delta 2411: 10-4. Licence 935 HHT, Ontario marker. 10 Lima 2: That's 10-4. Continue to follow. Do not 11 light up. 12 Delta 2411: 10-4. We've deactivated our lights and 13 we'll continue to follow. Confirm: 14 that's a second cruiser following us? 15 Unknown: Gransden and ... inaudible ... yeah. 1 16 District ERT behind you. Gransden and ... 17 inaudible... 18 Delta 2411: Lima 2, Delta. 19 Lima 2: Go ahead, Delta, Lima 2. Go ahead. 20 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... red Nova. 21 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2, go ahead. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN:


1 Q: Okay, if we could pause it there. 2 Constable Lorch is that your voice, any of those 2411's? 3 A: Not that I'm -- not that I can tell, 4 no. 5 Q: And are you able to identify that as 6 being Constable Bell's voice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 [Delta 2411 = Constable Steve Lorch] 13 [Alpha = Unknown] 14 [Lima 2 = TOC] 15 [CP = Lima 1] 16 [Prisoner Van = Constable Denis Leblanc] 17 18 Delta 2411: 10-4. We've deactivated our lights and 19 we'll continue to follow. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Just -- it 24 appears that the transcript that My Friend Mr. Falconer 25 was using, the -- "we've deactivated our lights and will


1 continue to follow," is at the top of page 2 and it's 2 1:14 seconds on the timer where that comes on. 3 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Thank you. So 4 it's not 47 seconds. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, where that comes 6 on I -- 7 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 Where are we now? Are we on the top of page 2? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 13 14 [Delta 2411 = Constable Steve Lorch] 15 [Alpha = Unknown] 16 [Lima 2 = TOC] 17 [CP = Lima 1] 18 [Prisoner Van = Constable Denis Leblanc] 19 20 23:33 hrs. 21 Delta 2411: 2411 to TOC site. 2411 to Lima 2. 22 Lima 2: Go ahead, 2411. 23 Delta 2411: 10-4. We have 10-92 female. Do you have 24 a wagon there for transport to Forest? 25 Lima 2: You're at Alpha position?


1 Delta 2411: Negative. We were involved in a pursuit. 2 Vehicle on 21 Highway. Apprehended the 3 driver. We're going to bring her back. 4 Lima 2: 10-4. Don't bring her back here. I would 5 suggest she go to Forest. 6 Delta 2411: 10-4. We also have an elderly passenger 7 female. Do you want her in Forest as 8 well? 9 Lima 2: Is she . is she in custody? 10 Delta 2411: Negative. 11 Lima 2: Then she can go wherever she wants to if 12 she's not in custody. 13 Delta 2411: 10-4. I'll drop her back at CFB 14 Ipperwash. 15 Lima 2: Yeah. Just stand by on that one. Lima 1, 16 Lima 2. Lima 1, Lima 2. Lima 1, Lima 2. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 21 Q: Let's -- let's pause it there. 22 Constable Lorch, are you able to identify whose voice 23 that is? 24 A: No -- no, I am not. 25 Q: For any of those transmissions from


1 2411? From the top -- sorry, from the top of the second 2 page? 3 A: Of the top of the second page, no, I 4 am not. 5 Q: Okay. Are you -- just so that the 6 record is clear. Are you able to say whether it is 7 Constable Bell? 8 A: I'm -- I don't recognize that voice - 9 - voice as Constable Bell's. 10 Q: And do you recognize it as your own 11 voice? 12 A: No, it's not my voice. 13 Q: Okay. That's it? Okay thank you for 14 that. Oh sorry, let's carry on. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 17 18 [Delta 2411 = Constable Steve Lorch] 19 [Alpha = Unknown] 20 [Lima 2 = TOC] 21 [CP = Lima 1] 22 [Prisoner Van = Constable Denis Leblanc] 23 24 Lima 2: Unit with the female under arrest. 25 Delta 2411: 2411.


1 Lima 2: 2411. Do you have to drive right past 2 that location? 3 Delta 2411: 10-4. We do. We're between Grand Bend 4 and the base. 5 Lima 2: 10-4. Delta, Lima 2. 6 Delta 2411: Lima 2, Delta. 7 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2. What's the situation at 8 that location? 9 Delta 2411: ... inaudible ... 10-92 with the 10 ambulance. We have two uniforms 11 accompanying the ambulance. We have 6 12 members and myself at this location. 13 Lima 2: 10-4. Is there anything going on there? 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 18 Q: Constable Lorch, for the 19 transmissions that you've now heard since the -- we last 20 paused it, are you able to identify who 2411 is? Is that 21 your voice? 22 A: No. That's not my voice and it's not 23 Constable Bell's voice. I don't know whose voice that 24 is. 25 Q: And Commissioner, I -- I've just had


1 some discussions with Mr. Millar regarding the 2 transmission at the be -- the top of page 3 of 4 where it 3 says: 4 "Inaudible -- 10-92 with the ambulance. 5 We have two (2) uniforms accompanying 6 the ambulance. We have six (6) members 7 and myself at this location." 8 And we're both agreed that -- we can't 9 explain why it says 2411, but that's obviously whose at 10 Checkpoint Delta and it's not someone whose in one of the 11 vehicles. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 16 Q: Constable Lorch, now I'm going to ask 17 you a few questions. I anticipate I'll only be five (5) 18 or ten (10) minutes, Commissioner, okay? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 22 Q: My Friend, Mr. Worme, this morning, 23 if you can take your mind back to that, had asked you 24 some questions regarding the content of your uniform and 25 your kit when you were -- when dressed as an ERT member.


1 Do you remember those questions? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you testified that one of the 4 things that you had with you as an ERT member was a 5 baton, right? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I take it that a baton is not 8 specific to ERT members, right? 9 A: No. 10 Q: That's something that all police 11 officers carry, right? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: When you were dealing with Ms. Simon 14 and with Melva George when the car is pulled over in 15 Northville, did you at any point hear Ms. George 16 screaming? 17 A: No, I did not. 18 Q: Did you at any point hear her crying? 19 A: No, I did not. 20 Q: Did you at any point hear her speak 21 of or ask for medicines? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: And am I clear that your evidence is 24 that you did not hear a demand made for Ms. George to get 25 out of the car and onto the ground?


1 A: That's correct I did not hear that. 2 Q: You were asked some questions by one 3 of My Friends regarding whether during the period from 4 September 4th through to September 6th, you had seen any 5 gun casings in the Park or in the Base. Do you remember 6 that -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- that line of questioning? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I take it that at no point 11 throughout the summer of 1995 did you ever set foot in 12 the Army Base; is that correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And I take it from your notes and 15 from your evidence today, that at no point between 16 September 4th and 6th, 1995 did you ever set base (sic), 17 number 1, in the Park; is that correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Or number 2, in the Army Base; is 20 that correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: You were questioned today regarding 23 your evidence about having heard automatic gunfire on 24 September 5th, 1995? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And I take it that on the evening of 2 September 5th, 1995 you would have had your police radio 3 on; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: I'm just wondering if Exhibits P-1226 6 and P-1227 could please be shown to Constable Lorch? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Actually, sir, I can hand you my 11 copies if you -- if you like, if this -- if this makes it 12 easier, if you just want to hand those up? 13 A: Thank you. 14 Q: Thank you. And I take it, Constable 15 Lorch, that when you had your radio on, on September the 16 5th, you were able to hear the transmissions coming over 17 the radio, right? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And what I'm showing to you in those 20 exhibits, those are transcripts of calls that were made 21 by Larry Parks reporting automatic gunfire. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: If you just want to have a look at 24 that? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Okay? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So my question to you is: On the 6 night of September the 5th, 1995, were you aware that 7 Sergeant Parks had reported the gunfire? Is that 8 something you would have heard over the radio 9 transmissions? 10 A: It's something I would have heard 11 over the radio, yes. 12 Q: My Friend Ms. Esmonde asked you some 13 questions about whether you made any effort to find out 14 information about the vehicle -- sorry, I'm now referring 15 to Septem -- the night of September the 6th, and My 16 Friend Ms. Esmonde asked you questions as to whether you 17 made efforts to inquire about the vehicle that you were 18 pursuing. Do you remember that line of questions? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I take it, given that it was just 21 -- we've -- Mr. Millar has just played Exhibit 1254 to 22 you, I take it that you were aware of the fact that 23 Constable Bell had made inquiries on the vehicle? 24 A: When he -- when he radioed in the 25 licence plate?


1 Q: Right. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you -- I take it you didn't 4 receive any information in response? 5 A: Not that I'm aware of. 6 Q: Okay. Now, My Friend Mr. Falconer 7 was asking you some questions regarding the failure of 8 the vehicle to pull over when you activated your lights; 9 do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And at that time it was mis-estimated 12 that the amount of time involved was forty-seven (47) 13 seconds. We now have Mr. Millar telling us that it was 14 actually one (1) minute and fourteen (14) seconds, okay? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And in your experience as a police 17 officer, is one (1) minute and fourteen (14) seconds 18 sufficient time for a vehicle to pull over and stop? 19 A: More than ample. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said 21 forty-seven (47) seconds was enough. 22 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: He said -- thank 23 you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN:


1 Q: And do I understand from your 2 evidence that Ms. Simon never spoke with you when you 3 were interacting with her; is that correct? 4 A: I'm -- I'm sorry? 5 Q: When you're -- following the exchange 6 at the telephone -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- Ms. Simon never spoke with you, 9 right? 10 A: There is -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 12 minute. Just a minute. 13 Yes, Ms. Esmonde...? 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I don't think 15 that's the evidence at all. He -- for example, he's 16 discussed providing the caution to Ms. Simon, her asking 17 that it be repeated and telling him that -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- she wanted to 20 speak with a lawyer immediately. So I don't think that 21 that's a fair summary of the evidence. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, there 23 is that conversation. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN:


1 Q: Did Ms. Simon provide you with her 2 name? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And did she answer any questions that 5 you had of her? 6 A: No, she did not. 7 Q: And was she cooperative with you? 8 A: No, she was not. 9 Q: My Friend Mr. Falconer was asking you 10 some questions about police policy during high-risk take- 11 downs. Do you remember those questions? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I just want to be sure that your 14 evidence was clear. 15 At the time that -- from your 16 recollection, okay, at the time that P/C Bell radios in 17 to Lima 2 and we have this at 23:14 hours, okay? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Is it your recollection that prior to 20 radioing Lima 2, the lights on the vehicle had already 21 been activated? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry, Mr. 25 Commissioner. My Friend -- if My Friend had asked the


1 question in a different way she could have elicited 2 evidence of that nature. That's not what she asked. She 3 said was your evidence 'X'. And that was not his 4 evidence. 5 His evidence wasn't that he knew he had 6 them activated before. He speculated six (6) ways to 7 Sunday that they might have been, but he didn't know. 8 Now, My Friend says, was your evidence 'X'. Well, it 9 wasn't. 10 She's not clarifying, she's just -- she's 11 recasting the evidence, in my submission. The fair way 12 to do it is if she wants to now lead him down a path to 13 get him to say that -- fine, but don't use the evidence 14 where he said specifically he didn't know. 15 I asked him. He said he didn't know. He 16 was quite clear, he said -- what he said was, that a 17 number of things could have caused the delay, but he 18 didn't know -- didn't know what could have caused delay 19 and didn't know if his lights were on or not before the 20 radio transmission started, so -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 22 could rephrase the question so that -- 23 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: With respect, 24 Commissioner, I'm not recasting the evidence in any 25 regard.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What your 2 saying is that it is your evidence or -- perhaps you 3 could rephrase it. 4 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Well I just think 5 the record needs to be clear. Mr. Falconer's question, 6 as I understood it, was a very general policy question. 7 You aware that in these situations, et 8 cetera, et cetera, this is what you have to do? And, 9 Commissioner, you had jumped in and you yourself 10 commented, well he's not saying that that's what happened 11 on this occasion. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well I 13 couldn't tell. 14 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: To be -- 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And so I 16 particularized, and I don't actually remember you jumping 17 Mr. Commissioner, but I -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 19 don't know if I jumped, but I did intervene. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I did 21 particularize, following your intervention, Mr. 22 Commissioner, and I asked him about this specific case, 23 at which point he told us he did not recall. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And so to cast his


1 evidence as now that he's saying it, in fairness, it 2 wasn't what his evidence was. If she wants to go forward 3 and have him now say it is, fair enough. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then you 5 aren't objecting or you are, I can't tell what you -- 6 OBJ MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm objecting to 7 summarizing his past evidence as having said he recalled, 8 because he was quite clear to us that he did not recall. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: He did not know of 11 any reason why he would delay, but he didn't know. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 13 So did you want to ask your question again, Ms. Gleitman? 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 16 Q: My question is very simple, Constable 17 Lorch: Were the lights of the cruiser on before 18 Constable Bell radioed in to Lima 2? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And Mr. Falconer's policy questions 21 about high risk take-downs aside, okay, putting that 22 aside, on the night of September the 6th, 1995, at what 23 point does your following this vehicle become a pursuit? 24 A: After I became aware that the vehicle 25 was not going to stop.


1 Q: You were asked some questions 2 regarding the fact that Melva George was transported by 3 the police to, I believe it was the Forest Detachment. 4 Do you remember Mr. Falconer asking you that? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And do you recall Ms. George having 7 asked to go along with her daughter? 8 A: I recall that, yes. 9 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Okay. Thank 10 you. Those are all my questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much Ms. Gleitman. 13 Mr. Worme, do you have any re-examination? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 15 Mr. Worme responds to that, I just wanted to clear up a - 16 - what appears to be in the document book at Tab 11, 17 you've got under P-1254, four (4) pages. 18 In actual fact, I've gone back and checked 19 the transcript, P-12 -- and the Exhibit P-1254 is the 20 first page. P-12 -- and I think this was marked during 21 the evidence of Constable Gransden. 22 And Constable Gransden identified, I 23 think, Constable's Bell's name and voice on P-1254, the 24 first page, just like Constable Lorch did. 25 Page -- pages 2 to 4 are actually Exhibit


1 P-1255. And on P-1255 the Delta 2411 is Constable 2 Gransden, and that's from the evidence on March 30th, 3 2006. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But the 5 document 1254, at the bottom it says it's page 1 of 4. 6 That's a mistake? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's quite correct, 8 it says 1 of 4, but when it was marked as an Exhibit, 9 Exhibit P -- it was divided up -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- because of the 12 different voices. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1254 is page 14 1. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And 1255 is 17 2 and 4. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Is page 2, 3 and 4, 19 yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Yes, Mr. Worme, do you have any re- 22 examination? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate Mr. 24 Millar clarifying that. I regret, certainly, the 25 confusion that it has caused this Witness and any of My


1 Friends, Commissioner. 2 I -- I have no re-examination but do wish 3 to thank Officer Lorch for his attendance here and his 4 testimony. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much for coming in and giving us your evidence. 8 Thank you very kindly. You're finished now. 9 10 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we need a 13 break or can we go right into the next witness? 14 MR. DONALD WORME: We're certainly 15 prepared -- Mr. Millar is prepared to go directly to the 16 next witness. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well let's 18 just stay in place. It's 4:10, let's just continue on. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 20 Commissioner. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 afternoon, Mr. Roland. Good afternoon.


1 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good afternoon, 2 Commissioner. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we call 7 as our next witness, Constable Tracy Dobbin. 8 9 TRACY DOBBIN, Sworn 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon. 13 14 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Constable Dobbin if you could take 16 the black book that's in front of you and please turn to 17 Tab 1. And at Tab 1 is a copy of your CV. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 20 the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1693, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1693: Document Number 2005532. 24 Resume of Constable Tracy 25 Dobbin.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And it includes not only the first 4 two (2) pages of the CV but the last four (4) pages also 5 are from Inquiry Document 2005532 that refer as well 6 additional information with respect to Constable Dobbin. 7 Is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And as I understand it, Constable 10 Dobbin, you have a Bachelor of Arts Degree in psychology 11 from the University of Guelph? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And from January 1991 to January 1995 14 you were a counsellor in Guelph? 15 A: Yes, that's correct. 16 Q: And in -- from January 1995 to April 17 1995 you were a civilian monitor with the Ontario 18 Provincial Police in the Western Region? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And -- and on April 24th, 1995 you 21 became a member of the Ontario Provincial Police? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And on August 18th, 1995 you 24 graduated from the Ontario Provincial Police Academy? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.


1 Q: And your first posting was at 2 Strathroy Detachment? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: As a Provincial Constable? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And your duties were general law 7 enforcement? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you remained at Strathroy until 10 January 1997, and today you're presently at the Frontenac 11 Detachment? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you've been there since April 14 2001? 15 A: I've been there since -- yes, I've 16 been in East Region since the fall of 2000 and at 17 Frontenac since April. 18 Q: And if I could take you back to 1995, 19 your first shift as a police officer, working shift, was 20 September the 5th, 1995; is that correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And your second shift as a Provincial 23 Police Officer, working shift, was September 6th, 1995? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And that was in the Strathroy


1 Detachment? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And at Tab 2 -- before I go there, as 4 part of your training back in 1995, did you receive any 5 First Nations awareness training? 6 A: Not at that time, no. 7 Q: Subsequently you have? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it that you had no 10 policing experience, prior to September 5th, 1995, with 11 First Nations? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And now the -- on September the 5th - 14 - excuse me, on September the 6th, 1995, what, if any, 15 information did you have with respect to Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park or the Army Camp? 17 A: I was aware that there was an ongoing 18 situation at the Ipperwash Provincial Park and that we 19 were sending resources to that area. 20 Q: And how did you become aware of that? 21 A: Simply through my employment at 22 Strathroy Detachment. 23 Q: And you learned that on September 5th 24 and 6th? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And at Tab 2 of the book in front of 2 you are copies of your notes for September 5th and into 3 September the 6th, 1995; is that correct? 4 A: September 6th into September 7th, I 5 believe. 6 Q: Yes, September 6th into September 7 7th; is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I'd ask that those two (2) pages, 10 it's part of -- it is actually Inquiry Document 5000017, 11 be the next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1694, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1694: Document Number 5000017. 15 Handwritten notebook entries 16 of Tracy Dobbin, September 06 17 to 07, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And can you tell us -- actually on 21 Exhibit P-1694, the entry at 23:43 I've redacted. And My 22 Friends should know that there's a name the third line 23 down and on -- at 23:43 which should be redacted, and 24 I've redacted it on the Registrar's copy already. 25 Now, can you tell us, on September 6th,


1 1995, I understand you came on duty at 18:00 hours; is 2 that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you were assigned to a patrol car 5 with Constable Miller? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And as I understand it, at the time 8 you were still a probationary constable? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And you were assigned to work with 11 Constable Miller who was your coach officer? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And as I understand it, new officers 14 are assigned, for a period of time, coach officers to 15 work with them? 16 A: Yes, six (6) months. 17 Q: Six (6) months? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And to help with their training? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And the... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: In your notes at Exhibit P-1694, it


1 appears that at 19:51, or shortly thereafter, you were 2 dispatched to prepare to head to Ipperwash. And can you 3 tell -- tell us about that? What happened? 4 A: Shortly -- between that period, 5 between 8:00 and nine o'clock that evening we were 6 dispatched to attend to Ipperwash over the radio from the 7 Comm Centre. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And it would be to man a roadblock 10 position. 11 Q: That was what your -- your 12 understanding? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you tell us, back on the 15 second day on the job, what was your practice with 16 respect to making notes? 17 A: My -- my practice would be what I had 18 very recently learned at the Police Academy, so simply to 19 make documentation at the time of the information that 20 was coming forward. 21 Q: Or as soon as possible thereafter? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And can you tell us today, I know 24 only police officers or lawyers ask these kinds of 25 questions, when you made these notes?


1 A: I would have made the notes at the 2 time? 3 Q: At the time? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the -- when you indicate you were 6 prepared to dispatch to Ipperwash, can you tell us what 7 you did with respect to your preparation? 8 A: Yeah. We would have been on general 9 patrol; we were on general patrol. We returned to the 10 detachment -- 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: -- and we loaded our vehicle with 13 gear, and gear would be heavier -- heavier clothing and 14 any other items that we would have needed: Gloves, 15 flashlights, long guns. 16 Q: And do you -- do you recall today 17 what long gun or guns that you loaded in your vehicle? 18 A: A 12 gauge shotgun was -- 19 Q: And -- 20 A: -- was the issue at the time. 21 Q: And did you have a Ruger -- mini- 22 Ruger rifle? 23 A: A mini-Ruger rifle was the issue at 24 the time, but I don't recall loading one. 25 Q: Okay. And who decided that you


1 should bring the long guns? 2 A: It -- it would have been my coach 3 officer very likely. 4 Q: And that would have been Constable 5 Miller? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you under -- what was your 8 understanding of what you were going to do at Ipperwash? 9 You indicated a moment ago it was to man 10 roadblock. 11 A: A roadblock, yes. 12 Q: And was that what had been -- the 13 other officers from Strathroy had been doing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Manning road -- roadblocks? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what type of uniform were you in 18 that evening? 19 A: I would have been in a standard 20 working uniform, which at that time would have been black 21 patrol boots, navy pants with the light blue stripe, a 22 light blue shirt with the patch and our uniform peak cap. 23 Q: And so that would have been, we've 24 heard that referred to as a blue shirt uniform? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And then what happened? At 21:00 in 2 your notes, Exhibit P-1694, it says: 3 "Prepare for Ipperwash. To stand by." 4 And then at 22:45: 5 "Stand by is called off." 6 A: Correct. So at 22:45, prior to 7 attending Ipperwash we were advised to stand down, that 8 we were no longer required. 9 Q: No longer required to go to 10 Ipperwash? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And you went back on patrol? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Then at 23:55 there's an entry, 15 "Dispatched to Strathroy Hospital to 16 arrest a car load of Natives enroute 17 from Ipperwash in white car with flat 18 tire." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And would you please turn to Tab 3 of 21 the black book in front of you. And Commissioner, the 22 real time on this transmission I'm instructed is 23:47 23 which is, I've written in all of the copies. 24 And have you listened to this 25 transmission?


1 A: I have. 2 Q: And the transcript is accurate? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this is a transmission between 5 the London Comm Centre and Constable Miller; you were in 6 the same patrol car with Constable Miller? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And you heard this transmission? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And perhaps we could mark this the 11 next Exhibit, Commissioner? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1695 Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1695: Transcript of London Comm 15 Centre, Cst. Miller, London 16 Comm Centre-Logger tape 086, 17 Track 4, elapsed 18 time:23:23:55, real time 19 23:47, September 06, 1995. 20 disc 04 of 20. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And the London Comm Centre advises: 24 "Can you stand by to copy. Can you 25 attend Strathroy Hospital please now as


1 in now. Look for a car, white in 2 colour, flat tire. Will be bringing in 3 an injured party with numerous 4 injuries. We want to talk to the 5 parties involved. Strathroy PS will 6 meet you at the scene." 7 Then Constable Miller: 8 "Do you know what these injuries are 9 from?" 10 London Comm Centre: 11 "It stems from what you were almost 12 sent up to earlier in the evening. 13 Just play it cautious guys. Could be 14 weapons, firearms in the vehicle. 15 M: Thank you. 16 LCC: Call released at 23:50." 17 Then on the next page at Tab 4, there's a 18 second call and this one is, we're told the real time is 19 23:50. And it's again Constable Miller with the London 20 Comm Centre and have you listened to this transmission? 21 A: Yes I have. 22 Q: And is -- is the transcript accurate? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And on the evening of September the 25 6th, did you hear this transmission in your -- the patrol


1 car with Constable Miller? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in this transmission, among other 4 things, Constable Miller asks what you're supposed to do 5 when -- 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: -- you get to trans -- Strathroy 8 Hospital. London Communications says: 9 "I have no idea what they want you to 10 do. Somebody is coming down from the 11 scene to discuss with these parties 12 what's going on." 13 Miller: 14 "Okay. So we're just to kind of 15 stabilize things here, hey?" 16 LCC: 17 "10-4, there may or not be a 10-52 18 enroute down also with a second party. 19 This -- this vehicle, the white car 20 with a flat tire, left prior to the 10- 21 52 arrival." 22 And 10-52 refers to an ambulance? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And then Mr. -- Constable Miller 25 says:


1 "Okay, I'll stand by then and see what 2 happens. 3 LONDON COMMUNICATIONS CENTRE: Just 4 for your information. Strathroy PD 5 have been alerted to the fact. They're 6 going to send one car over just to keep 7 you advised. 8 This white car with a flat tire may 9 have numerous parties in it, possibly 10 armed, one victim." 11 And what was your understanding, Constable 12 Dobbin as a result of these transmissions as to what you 13 might be expecting with the white car? 14 A: That we were to attend the hospital. 15 That we were to await the arrival of the white car and 16 with the possibility of weapons to address the threat of 17 weapons. 18 Q: And did you attend at Strathroy 19 Hospital with Constable Miller? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your note indicates you arrived 22 at -- at Tab 2, Exhibit P-1694, at -- it appears 10:04? 23 A: Correct. No -- four (4) minutes 24 after midnight. 25 Q: I mean, excuse me, four (4) minutes


1 after midnight? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And TC is your initials? 4 A: Correct 5 Q: Your first name and second name? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And it had been a different time and 8 you changed it to four (4) minutes after midnight? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And what did you do when you got to 11 the hospital? 12 A: When we arrived at the hospital, we 13 exited our patrol vehicle and found -- took -- took cover 14 around the hospital perimeter and awaited the approach of 15 the white car. 16 Q: And -- and when you say you took 17 cover in relation to the Emergency Room -- let me step 18 back. 19 At the Strathroy Hospital in 1995 was 20 there an Emergency Entrance? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And in relation to that an Emergency 23 Entrance, as I understand it, they have had a canopy over 24 the entrance? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And in relation -- and under that can 2 -- the -- a vehicle could drive right up under the canopy 3 and be right by the doors. 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: The entrance to the Emergency -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- department? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: In relation to those doors where did 12 you take up a position? 13 A: I would have been standing just west 14 of the entrance of the doorway -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- beside the pillar that holds up 17 the canopy. 18 Q: So that -- so that you were just west 19 of -- so the -- on the other side from the door? 20 A: Correct. If you're facing the door 21 I'd be standing to the right. 22 Q: Okay. And so what happened? 23 A: The -- the white vehicle arrived at 24 the hospital and it could be heard approaching because it 25 had the flat tire and it was riding on the rim.


1 Q: Yes. And what did you -- you could 2 hear noise from the -- from the car? 3 A: Yes. You could hear the metal on the 4 -- on the highway. So the vehicle arrived and when the 5 vehicle arrived I approached the vehicle. 6 Q: Okay. Excuse me. I -- I neglected 7 to -- to make Tab 4 an exhibit. The transmission at 8 23:50, we should do that now. It's P-1696. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1696: Transcript of London Comm 11 Centre, Cst Miller, London 12 Comm Centre, logger tape 086, 13 track 4, disc 4 of 20, 14 elapsed time 23:26:36, real 15 time 23:50, September 06, 16 1995. 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. Worme 19 and Mr. Registrar. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Excuse me, Constable Dobbin. So you 23 heard the car, the noise of the car? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Then what happened?


1 A: And the vehicle pulled in and I 2 approached it. 3 Q: And who were you with at -- while you 4 were waiting for the white car? Were there other police 5 officers? There was Constable Miller. 6 Were there any other police officers that 7 you observed? 8 A: Yes. I -- I observed Constable 9 Angela Baker. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And Constable Heather Taylor. 12 Q: And they -- 13 A: Both of Strathroy Detachment. 14 Q: Yes. And did you observe any other 15 police officers at the time? 16 A: Not at that time, no. 17 Q: Okay. And so the white car arrived - 18 - it proceeded under the canopy by the front door? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And so what happened next? 21 A: I approached the rear passenger side 22 door of the vehicle. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And opened that door. 25 Q: And what did you observe when the --


1 when you opened the door? 2 A: I observed that there was a male 3 driving the vehicle, there was a female passenger in the 4 front passenger seat, there was a second young male 5 behind the driver's seat and a third -- or sorry, a 6 fourth person -- a third male, prone on the rear seat 7 with his head in the lap of the younger male. 8 Q: And what did -- were you able to look 9 at the person who was lying on the seat? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what did you observe when you 12 looked at that person? 13 A: I observed that he was injured; he 14 had an injury to his chest. 15 Q: And were you able to make any other 16 observations as to his condition? 17 A: My immediate assumption was that he 18 was deceased. 19 Q: And why did you make that assumption? 20 A: Because he appeared lifeless. 21 Q: And then you opened the back door. 22 What happened next? 23 A: I then shut the back door and -- 24 Q: And why did you do that? 25 A: Because there was a plainclothes


1 officer -- at this time there are now many police 2 officers in the parking lot, not the initial three (3) 3 that I observed previous. And there are many officers 4 surrounding the vehicle, and I was taking direction from 5 a male officer who was standing on the driver's side of 6 the vehicle and he was giving me direction. 7 Q: And the male officer who was standing 8 on the driver's side of the vehicle, was he in uniform or 9 in plainclothes? 10 A: Plainclothes. 11 Q: And how did you know he was a police 12 officer? 13 A: He had -- he had either a vest or a 14 jacket, but I recall that he had a -- a police flash, 15 that he was easily identifiable as a police officer. 16 Q: And do you know -- did you recognize 17 that officer? 18 A: I did not. 19 Q: And what did that officer direct you 20 to do? 21 A: He was directing me to arrest the 22 female in the passenger seat. 23 Q: And when you opened the back door did 24 you see any weapons? 25 A: Not that I recall, no.


1 Q: And was that one (1) of the reasons 2 you opened the door, was to look for weapons? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you see any weapons -- let me 5 step back. So the officer -- do you know today who the 6 officer was who instructed you to arrest the female 7 occupant of the front seat? 8 A: I've been advised who that officer 9 is, yes. 10 Q: And that was Trevor Richardson? 11 A: I believe so. 12 Q: And -- but at the time you didn't 13 know who it was, you simply new -- 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: -- that he was an officer and he was 16 directing you to arrest the person in the front seat? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: So after he gave you this direction, 19 what did you do? 20 A: I made attempts to gain control of 21 the female passenger. 22 Q: And what did you mean by that you 23 made attempts to gain control of the female passenger? 24 A: Because I didn't gain control of her 25 immediately.


1 Q: And when you first turned your 2 attention to the female officer, was she in the car or 3 outside of the car -- I mean the female passenger, excuse 4 me. 5 A: My recollection is that she was in 6 the vehicle. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: She may have actually been in the 9 process of exiting the vehicle, but she was in that close 10 proximity. 11 Q: And the -- before I go on, what you - 12 - did you call for help when you saw the person lying on 13 the back seat? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: And why did you not do that? 16 A: Because when I observed the person in 17 the back seat, the male plainclothes officer immediately 18 was yelling at me to take control of the front seat 19 passenger. 20 Q: Okay. And so the -- did you come to 21 know who the -- the person, the female was in the front 22 seat? 23 A: Yes, Carolyn George. 24 Q: And when you first observed Carolyn 25 George she was either in the car or trying -- getting out


1 of the car? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And what did you do? 4 A: I took her by the arm. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And I tried to restrain her so that 7 she could be handcuffed; arrested and handcuffed. 8 Q: And what, if anything, did you say to 9 her? 10 A: I would have advised her that she was 11 under arrest. 12 Q: And for what? 13 A: For attempt murder of a police 14 officer. 15 Q: And had -- how did you know that? 16 A: Through -- simply through 17 conversations from the time we were dispatched until the 18 time we were at the hospital awaiting the arrival of the 19 vehicle. 20 Q: And when you -- when you say, 21 "through conversations," I'm just trying to understand 22 what you mean by that. How did... 23 A: I was aware that -- that there was a 24 confrontation that had occurred at the Park -- 25 Q: Yes?


1 A: -- and that there were both this 2 injured party and police officers who had potentially 3 been injured, or attempted to have been injured. 4 Q: And how -- what was your 5 understanding at the time, as to how these police 6 officers had been -- attempted to be injured or injured? 7 A: At the time I understood that there 8 was an attempt to run police officers over with a school 9 bus. 10 Q: And did Trevor Richardson, when he 11 gave you the instructions to arrest the person in the 12 front seat, say anything to you about the reason for the 13 arrest? 14 A: I don't recall that, no. 15 Q: And when you arrested Carolyn George 16 for attempted murder, on what basis did you attribute -- 17 did you attribute to her that she was the driver of the 18 school bus? 19 A: No, I did not. I simply gained 20 physical control of Carolyn George -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- and her rights -- as you 23 understand it to be, the arrest, I physically arrested 24 her. Another Officer read her her rights and indicated 25 the reasons for that.


1 Q: So you were instructed to take 2 control of her and take her into custody, and that's what 3 you did? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And then someone else read her her 6 rights and indicated what the charge was? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And did you -- did you hear what the 9 person said? 10 A: Correct. Yes, I did. 11 Q: And that was, You are under arrest 12 for attempted murder? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And who was that person? 15 A: Constable Heather Taylor. 16 Q: And before you got to the stage of 17 reading her her rights, as you were by Heather Taylor -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- you being present when Heather 20 Taylor did that -- 21 A: Hmm hmm 22 Q: -- what happened between when you 23 first approached Carolyn George and she being placed -- 24 being read her rights? 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: What physically happened? 2 A: Okay. When I initially took her by 3 her arm she was exiting the vehicle, we got into a 4 struggle, we tried to move from the paved area over onto 5 a grassy area and in doing that, when I was having 6 difficulty restraining her, there was a second Officer 7 assisting me and we all fell through a hedge at the front 8 of the hospital. 9 Q: And who was the second Officer 10 assisting? 11 A: Christine Murphy. 12 Q: And when you say you fell, what do 13 you mean by that? Had you not seen the hedge when you 14 were attempting to bring Carolyn George into custody or-- 15 A: Yes. What happened was we were 16 having difficulty, she was struggling, being actively 17 resistant, and when I attempted to -- we were attempting 18 to get her arms behind her back to handcuff her, 19 Constable Murphy and myself had some discussions about -- 20 because we were not able to restrain her in that fashion, 21 we discussed putting her down on the ground to be able to 22 gain better control of her. 23 And one (1) of the means of doing that was 24 for us to each put a leg in front of her legs so that 25 when we push on her back she would go over our legs and


1 go down, so that we could get her restrained and put the 2 handcuffs on her. 3 Before we were able to do that, we had our 4 legs in position, we got bumped from behind, and the 5 three (3) of us fell forward into the bushes and onto the 6 ground. 7 Q: So that the -- you were bumped by 8 somebody else? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you see who bumped you? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And in the same vicinity -- were you, 13 at this point, on the passenger side of the white car? 14 A: Yes, I'm between the vehicle and the 15 hospital. 16 Q: And the hospital. And the -- do you 17 -- someone bumped you and you both -- all three (3) of 18 you fell into the bush? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And did -- do you recall Carolyn 21 George saying anything to you? 22 A: Not to me specifically. She was 23 calling out for someone to help her brother. 24 Q: And so that as you were attempting to 25 put the handcuffs on her she was calling out for help for


1 her brother? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did -- do you -- Constable Angela 4 Baker indicates that Carolyn George was able to make it 5 through the door into the hospital. Do you recall that? 6 A: I don't recall that. 7 Q: Now, once you -- when the three (3) 8 of you fell into the hedge, what then happened? 9 A: Then we regained physical control of 10 Carolyn George, and she was handcuffed and placed in the 11 rear of the cruiser. 12 Q: And did someone else -- another 13 officer assist, a male officer come over and help? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: Constable Boon? 16 A: Not that I recall. 17 Q: So she was put into the cruiser, then 18 what did you do? 19 A: Then I attended back to my coach 20 officer, Constable Miller. We returned to our cruiser 21 and transported Pierre George, the driver of the vehicle, 22 back to the Strathroy Detachment. 23 Q: And so that -- so that Carolyn George 24 wasn't put in your cruiser; it was somebody else's 25 cruiser?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And was that Constable Murphy's 3 cruiser? 4 A: No. I believe it would have been 5 either Taylor or Baker. 6 Q: Taylor or Baker. 7 A: It was a Strathroy vehicle. 8 Q: And then you've got in your notes: 9 "Constable Taylor read the female her 10 rights." 11 So that was after you put her in the car? 12 A: Prior to being put in the car. 13 Q: Prior to put in the car? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did -- how would you describe the 16 scene at the hospital when all this was going on? 17 A: Chaotic. There were many, many 18 people. There was no sense of order initially; just 19 frenzied. 20 Q: And did you see Pierre George being 21 arrested? 22 A: I did not. 23 Q: And did you come to learn that Pierre 24 George was the driver of the white car? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And the brother of the passenger in 2 the back seat? 3 A: Correct, yes. 4 Q: And did you see -- did you come to 5 learn that the person in the back seat lying down was 6 Dudley George? 7 A: That's right, yes. 8 Q: And did you see Dudley George being 9 removed from the car? 10 A: I did not. 11 Q: And what about the young person in 12 the car; did you come to learn that his name was J.T. 13 Cousins or J.T. George? 14 A: J. T. George, yes. 15 Q: And did you see him removed from the 16 car? 17 A: I did not. 18 Q: So you, accompanied by Constable 19 Miller, took Perry George to the Detachment? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your note is at -- indicates that 22 was at 20 minutes after 12:00? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And how far was the Detachment away 25 from the hospital?


1 A: Less than 2 kilometres, a mile. 2 Q: Approximately a mile? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what did you do when you got to 5 the Detachment? 6 A: I assisted lodging Perry George in 7 the cell and then began assisting in filling out prisoner 8 reports. 9 Q: And if we could just step back, did 10 you hear Carolyn George calling for a stretcher for her 11 brother? 12 A: I don't specifically recall her 13 calling for a stretcher. I do recall her calling out for 14 help. 15 Q: And did you see a stretcher come out? 16 A: No. I don't recall. 17 Q: And do you recall Carolyn George 18 asking to see her brother? 19 A: I don't recall her specifically 20 asking to see her brother, but I do recall her voicing 21 concern about her brother. 22 Q: And did -- do you recall her glasses 23 being knocked off as you went through the hedge or the 24 shrubs? 25 A: I don't recall that, no. I don't


1 recall that she wore glasses. 2 Q: And the -- when you got to the 3 Detachment you assisted in filling out the prisoner 4 reports? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And there are prisoner reports, the 7 first one is at Tab 7 of the book and it's Inquiry 8 Document 2000701. 9 And is that one of the prisoner reports 10 you assisted with? 11 A: James George. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Yes. It's my handwriting. 14 Q: That's your handwriting? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 17 next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1697, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1697: Document Number 2000701. 22 Prisoner Report, James 23 George, September 07, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:


1 Q: And at Tab 8 there's a prisoner 2 report for Perry George, Inquiry Document 2000700. Do 3 you recognize that document? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 6 exhibit? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1698, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1698: Document Number 2000700. 10 Prisoner Report, Perry 11 George, September 07, 1995. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And at Tab 9 is Inquiry Document 15 2000699. It's a prisoner report for Carolyn George. And 16 do you recognize this document? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 19 next exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1699, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1699: Document Number 2000699. 23 Prisoner Report, Carolyn 24 George, September 07, 1995. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And can you just assist the 3 Commissioner in telling him how these -- using Tab 7, 4 Exhibit P-1697 as an example, how the prisoner reports 5 are -- are created? 6 A: Simply an officer such as myself, in 7 -- in this instance, would fill out the report, being 8 given information from, presumably, the arresting 9 officer. 10 Q: All right. And then I note on page 2 11 of P-1697 -- and actually on page 2, Commissioner, at 12 lines -- the lines at 4:30 and 4:37 there are some -- two 13 (2) telephone numbers that I would ask be redacted on the 14 exhibit copy, page 2, Exhibit P-1697. 15 At 4:30 and 4:37 there are two (2) 16 telephone numbers. Do you see that, Mr. Registrar? 17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And the notes on -- on page 2 is 21 entitled, Prisoner Security Check, and there are some 22 initials, and the initials "T.C." are checks made by you? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Those were your initials? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And -- so during the -- during the 2 night the prisoners were checked and comments were made 3 with respect to the observations that you made? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And can you tell us where the three 6 (3) prisoners were kept at the Strathroy Detachment? 7 A: Yes. There are only two (2) prisoner 8 cells at the Strathroy Detachment. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: So Carolyn George was occupying one, 11 Perry George was occupying the second, and the adolescent 12 prisoner was actually in the interview room. 13 Q: And the adolescent was James George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And on the way to the hospital -- 16 from the hospital to the detachment, when you had Pierre 17 George in your cruiser, do -- do you recall Mr. George 18 saying anything? 19 A: I don't. 20 Q: And at Tab 7 the -- at P-1697, for 21 James George the reason for the arrest is noted as 22 mischief. And do you recall today what that referred to, 23 what the mischief was? 24 A: I don't recall. I -- I believe it 25 was mischief that occurred at the Park, but I don't


1 recall specifically. 2 Q: And at Tab 8, P-1698 the charge is 3 attempt murder. And who indicated that the charge was 4 going to be attempt murder; do you recall? 5 A: It very likely would have been 6 supplied by Gerry Miller. I see he's the one who's 7 written that, so. 8 Q: Gerry Miller filled this one out? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And at Tab 9, P-1699 there appears to 11 be no charge? 12 A: There's no charge recorded. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And do you recall what the charge 16 was? You've already told us again it was attempt murder. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Did any of the prisoners say anything 23 to you while in custody? 24 A: I believe that J.T. made a comment to 25 me just prior to being placed into the interview room,


1 and certainly Carolyn George made comments to me in 2 regards to a previous injury. 3 Q: And what did Carolyn George say to 4 you about a previous injury? 5 A: That she had previously injured her 6 shoulder carrying water or at work. 7 Q: And do you recall what James George 8 said to you? 9 A: He made a comment that the Police 10 just started shooting at them. 11 Q: At them? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you recall Carolyn George 14 advising you that she was hypoglycemic and needed some 15 food? 16 A: No I do not. 17 Q: And there's a reference at -- if you 18 look at Tab 9, P-1699 at 02:56 it's I believe the line 19 says, resting something and then remarks, food did not 20 eat? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Yes, it's Tab 9 that's what I said. 25 A: At 02:04 --


1 Q: Oh, excuse me, excuse me there are 2 two (2) columns. At 9:56 she was provided some food, is 3 that -- 4 A: I see that, yes. I see at 02:04, I 5 offered her food. And at 09:56 she was given food and 6 did not eat. 7 Q: At 2:04 the entry, ice for -- 8 A: Right hand. 9 Q: And then offered food? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And do you recall if she took the 12 food or not, asked for food? 13 A: The offer was made if she wanted 14 food, not the -- the food wasn't present. 15 Q: Okay. And do you recall what 16 happened? 17 A: I don't believe -- I don't believe 18 food was supplied at that time. 19 Q: And I note at 1:26 there's a visit 20 from Mr. Maynard George? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And that was noted by you? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And Mr. Maynard George was Mr. Sam 25 George, do you know Mr. --


1 A: I'm not sure, no. 2 Q: Then how long did you stay on duty? 3 A: I believe I left duty at 4 approximately 10:00 or 10:30 the morning of September the 5 7th. 6 Q: And after you -- there's a -- in your 7 notes at page 2, exhibit P-1694: 8 "5:05, left cell of C. George, 9 09:00, departed detachment accompanied 10 by Constable Taylor in cruiser. 11 Dispatched to the hospital" 12 And then 10:30 off duty? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And after the morning of September 15 the 7th, did you have anything else to do with Ipperwash? 16 A: No I did not. 17 Q: And I understand at Tab 5 there's a 18 copy of Inquiry Document 2003455 and that is a statement, 19 and is that your statement? 20 A: Correct, that's my Will Say. 21 Q: And that statement I understand was 22 taken and made on September the 7th -- 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: -- of 1995? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: And the -- in the fall of 1995 did 2 you attend in the Ipperwash area in the course of your 3 duties as a police officer? 4 A: No I did not. 5 Q: And did you at any time in the fall 6 of 1995 become aware of mugs and T-shirts having been 7 prepared with respect to the Ipperwash matter? 8 A: Not at that time, no. 9 Q: Did you subsequently become aware? 10 A: I was aware of a T-shirt. 11 Q: And when did you become aware of 12 that? 13 A: Sometime after that time. 14 Q: And did you ever acquire a T-shirt? 15 A: I did not. 16 Q: And -- or a mug? 17 A: No I did not. 18 Q: Did you learn about a mug? 19 A: I didn't know about a mug, no. 20 Q: You didn't know about a mug? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And do you recall when you heard 23 about the T-shirt, what was on the T-shirt? 24 A: I don't recall, no. 25 Q: And the -- did you hear about a beer


1 can with feathers and yellow tape around it? 2 Did you ever hear of that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Or a OPP cruiser with a bullseye and 5 an arrow? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you ever hear of that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? And before I go on Exhibit -- 10 Inquiry Document 2003455 should be Exhibit -- the next 11 exhibit, the statement. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1700, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1700: Document Number 2003455. 15 Typed and handwritten OPP 16 statement of Tracy Dobbin, 17 September 07, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And we've heard some evidence -- so I 21 take it you had no T-shirt? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And you didn't see any of the T- 24 shirts? 25 A: I did not.


1 Q: You just heard of a T-shirt? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And we've heard of some -- some 4 evidence about a pin with the TRU Team symbol on it and 5 Kenneth Deane's number. 6 Were you aware that at some time there 7 was a pin created, I think it was a Ken Deane Defence 8 Fund pin? 9 A: That's correct, yes. 10 Q: And did you purchase one (1) of those 11 pins? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: And I understand you became aware of 14 the pin in 2000? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And you became aware because your ex- 17 husband had one (1) of the pins? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And he had been a member of the TRU 20 Team based in Belleville? 21 A: In 2000, that's correct. 22 Q: In 2000? And that's -- you -- you 23 learned he had one (1) of the pins? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And did you see the pin?


1 A: I have seen it, yes. 2 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions 3 unless you have anything else you wish to ask -- add, 4 Constable Dobbin? 5 A: No, thank you. 6 Q: Those are my questions. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Millar. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we need to see 10 who's going to ask the questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anybody 12 have any questions for this Witness? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Esmonde? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Esmonde. 15 Yes, Ms. Esmonde, how long might you be? 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Fifteen (15) to 17 twenty (20) minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 19 should go right into it then. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think so. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 25 Q: Good afternoon, --


1 A: Good afternoon. 2 Q: -- Detective Constable Dobbin? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde and I'm 5 going to be asking you some questions on behalf of the 6 some of the Stoney Point people under the name Aazhoodena 7 and George Family Group. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: Now, you've told us that having just 10 recently graduated from the Police College just prior to 11 these events you were familiar with the making of notes 12 and the policies around that? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And you knew that you had a duty to 15 make notes? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And the purpose of notes was on one 18 (1) hand to refresh your memory -- 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: -- in case you were asked questions 21 or had to provide testimony at a later date about events 22 you were involved in? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And for that reason it would be 25 important to be accurate in making your notes?


1 A: That's -- that's correct. 2 Q: And generally if you were involved in 3 arresting an individual you understood at the time that 4 it would be important to include the grounds for that 5 arrest in your notes? 6 A: Yes, that's correct. 7 Q: And I take it you were also freshly 8 aware from your training that in making an arrest you 9 needed to have reasonable and probable grounds for doing 10 so? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Even if you were doing so with the 13 direction of another officer? 14 A: That you could obtain your grounds 15 from another officer, yes. 16 Q: That's correct. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: But you had to independently satisfy 19 yourself that there were in fact reasonable and probable 20 grounds -- 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: -- for making the arrest? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Now, from -- from the evidence you've 25 just given and the transcripts you were taken to of some


1 radio transmissions -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- is it fair to say the information 4 that you had at the time you arrived at the hospital was 5 that it was thought that the injuries to the person in 6 the white vehicle stemmed from what you had been almost 7 sent to earlier that evening, the -- the wording's 8 awkward but that's from the transcript itself? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then you found out some further 11 information from speaking with other officers at the 12 hospital? 13 A: Further information in what regard? 14 Q: Further information that there had 15 been an altercation involving a bus? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And -- and who were those officers 18 who provided that information? 19 A: The officers that were at the scene. 20 I would presume that the bulk of my information came from 21 my coach officer. 22 Q: I see, but you had been with your 23 coach officer all evening? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Would you not have been privy to the


1 same information as your coach officer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: But your coach officer had some 4 additional information about an altercation involving a 5 bus? 6 A: The information would have come 7 forward from the time we were dispatched until the time 8 we arrived at the hospital. 9 Q: Okay. Well, I'm asking about the -- 10 you've told us you had some conversation with some 11 officers at the hospital in which you learned about an 12 altercation involving a bus and you've said you think you 13 received that information from your coach officer? 14 A: Correct. He would be one (1) of the 15 few officers that I knew. 16 Q: Okay. And where did he get that 17 information from? 18 A: I couldn't say. 19 Q: And were you not with him at all 20 times so you would have heard -- had the same source of 21 information as him? 22 A: No, I wouldn't be with him all of the 23 time but certainly relatively speaking, yes, I would be 24 with him. 25 Q: Did he step away from you at some


1 point and engage in radio communications you weren't part 2 of? 3 A: I don't believe so but there may -- 4 he may have spoken to someone in the hospital lot that I 5 didn't. 6 Q: But in any -- in any event you 7 weren't aware of any information that linked the people 8 in the vehicle with the bus? 9 A: I was aware that the people in the 10 vehicle were from the Ipperwash situation. 11 Q: But that's all you knew? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Now, in your notes which are found at 14 Tab 2 or you can look at your original notes if that's -- 15 if you prefer I noticed your use of the phrase: 16 "At 23:55 dispatched to Strathroy 17 Hospital to arrest a carload of 18 natives." 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And was that your words or were those 21 the words of somebody reporting information to you? 22 A: It would be my words unless I took 23 that from the transcript that came through the Comm 24 Centre but it -- I don't believe that's on the Comm 25 Centre so those would be my words.


1 Q: So using this to refresh your memory 2 and turning your mind back was it your understanding even 3 before you arrived at the hospital that you would be 4 arresting the persons in the vehicle? 5 A: That we would be attending to the 6 people in the vehicle to either -- either detain them or 7 to keep them until people from the Park came down who 8 were investigating the incident came to the scene. 9 Q: Okay. You -- you agree with me 10 though the words were that you used in your notes that 11 you were dispatched to arrest a carload of natives? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Now, you've testified that you 14 arrested Carolyn George? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And by that you mean you physically 17 touched her and you told her she was under arrest? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And you told her she was under arrest 20 for attempted murder? 21 A: Constable Heather Taylor read her her 22 rights and gave her the reason for her arrest. 23 Q: Okay. So you just said you're under 24 arrest? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And you in fact didn't even know what 2 the charge was; is that right? 3 A: I know what the charge was at this 4 time but to say I knew it at that moment I can't say. 5 Q: You can't say because you can't 6 remember or you didn't -- did you know when you were 7 arresting her that you were arresting her for attempted 8 murder? 9 A: I was told at the time to arrest the 10 female in the front seat and my understanding is that I 11 was to arrest her for attempt murder. Constable Taylor 12 read her her rights and gave her the reason, attempt 13 murder. 14 Q: Sorry. And gave her the...? 15 A: The reason, that the reason was 16 attempt murder. 17 Q: Okay. I'd like to unpack that just a 18 little bit. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: So you agree that you arrested her, 21 are you trying to suggest then that you passed on 22 responsibility to somebody else who...? 23 A: No, the arrest was -- involved a 24 number of people -- 25 Q: Right.


1 A: -- so I assisted in the arrest so I 2 would be the physical component of the arrest. I 3 actually restrained her and handcuffed her. 4 Q: Well, you'd agree that you as the 5 arresting officer are required by law to have reasonable 6 and probable grounds for doing so? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Even if there are other officers who 9 are involved afterwards? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And you -- you admit you did not have 12 reasonable and probable grounds for making the arrest for 13 attempted murder? 14 A: No, I was satisfied that my grounds 15 came from the plainclothes officer who advised me to 16 arrest her. 17 Q: And what grounds did he give you for 18 making that arrest? 19 A: He's a senior officer who was 20 directing me to make the arrest. 21 Q: Okay. I believe that we went over 22 earlier in my questioning of you that even if you're 23 arresting somebody at the direction of another officer 24 you are obligated to satisfy yourself independently that 25 there are reasonable and probable grounds and you agreed


1 with me about that? 2 A: Correct. And I was satisfied being 3 directed by a senior officer that I had reasonable and 4 probable grounds to make the arrest. 5 Q: So in -- in your view at that time 6 all you required was direction from a senior officer to 7 execute an arrest; that was sufficient grounds for you? 8 A: With two (2) days on the job that was 9 more than sufficient, yes. 10 Q: I see and would you -- would you 11 think that today? 12 A: Would I think that today? 13 Q: Do you believe that's the same case 14 today that direction from a senior officer is all you 15 require to execute an arrest? 16 A: I -- I believe that direction from a 17 senior officer is -- is grounds to take action, yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now, based on what you've told us you 22 understood at the time that Carolyn George was attempting 23 to get medical attention for her brother Dudley George? 24 A: I know that Carolyn George was 25 attempting -- she was saying something to the effect that


1 her brother needed help, yes. 2 Q: Did you turn your mind to the 3 possibility that Carolyn George may have information for 4 the doctors with respect to Dudley George's medical 5 history or information about how he had been injured? 6 A: No, my task at the time was to arrest 7 her. 8 Q: In retrospect though, looking back 9 now, if you had more time, it wasn't so chaotic, would 10 you agree with me that it would have been appropriate to 11 have found out if she had any information that may be 12 necessary for the doctors to treat Mr. George? 13 A: The situation dictated that there was 14 a threat of a weapon. So the immediate concern would be 15 to gain control of the occupants and to make sure that 16 there was no threat of weapons. 17 Q: Right. But, once that was 18 accomplished then it would have been possible for her to 19 speak with a doctor? 20 A: No, because she was detained and 21 under arrest. So she was taken back to detachment. That 22 would be normal protocol. 23 Q: So in your view, it wouldn't have 24 been possible for her to remain at the hospital in your 25 custody?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And at no -- can you tell me how long 3 was it between when the vehicle came to a stop and you 4 were leaving the hospital with Carolyn George in your 5 custody? 6 A: Somewhere around ten (10) minutes. 7 Q: About ten (10) minutes. And at no 8 time prior to your leaving the hospital, did you see any 9 medical attention being provided to Dudley George? 10 A: No I did not. 11 Q: And in fact, you didn't see him even 12 removed from the vehicle during that time? 13 A: No I did not. 14 Q: Did you participate in what's been 15 called an Ipperwash Review in February of 1996, it was a 16 large meeting of officers that was I believe involved 17 Chief Coles? 18 A: No, I wasn't -- 19 Q: You did not? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Was it brought to your attention that 22 the legality of the arrest at Strathroy Hospital was 23 raised as an issue during any review of all the senior 24 Officers? 25 A: No, I'm not even aware of the review


1 you're speaking of. 2 Q: And you've never been spoken to by 3 any of your superior Officers about the legality of 4 Carolyn George's arrest? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Nor did your coach Officer raise with 7 you any concerns about that arrest? 8 A: No. 9 Q: I take it you were never disciplined 10 for your involvement in that arrest? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 13 questions. 14 A: You're welcome. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Ms. Esmonde. 17 Do you have any questions, Mr. Roland? 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: A couple of questions. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: Ms. Esmonde asked you about whether 22 you saw Dudley George being treated or whether you saw 23 him being taken from the vehicle. And you answered, no 24 you didn't see either of those features. You didn't see 25 him being treated and you didn't see him being taken from


1 the vehicle. 2 Were you observing the vehicle during the 3 ten (10) minute period that we're talking about? 4 A: No, my back was to the vehicle. 5 Q: So he could have been taken from the 6 vehicle, or not, you simply didn't see. 7 You weren't observing the vehicle? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And you've told us you were wearing a 10 peak cap that evening, had Stetson hats been issued at 11 that stage to the OPP? 12 A: No, Stetson hats didn't come into 13 issue until 90 -- I'm going to say '97, maybe '98. 14 Q: So thus there wouldn't be any 15 officers at the hospital wearing Stetson hats that 16 evening? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Because they didn't -- 19 A: Quite honestly I would find it hard 20 in my recall to know that any Officer was wearing a hat 21 all, actually. 22 Q: Yeah, but it would be impossible for 23 officers to wear -- an officer wearing a Stetson hat that 24 evening because they hadn't been issued to the OPP? 25 A: They were not issued equipment at


1 that time, no. 2 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 Mr. Roland. 5 Mr. Miller ...? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no other 7 questions. I wish to thank Constable Dobbin for 8 attending and giving her evidence. 9 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much Constable for giving us your evidence. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 14 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 17 to have an early day. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We are, it's 10 after 19 5:00, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 21 to adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 24 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, June the 13th at 9:00 25 a.m.


1 2 --- Upon adjourning at 5:12 p.m. 3 4 5 Certified Correct 6 7 8 9 ___________________________ 10 Carol Geehan 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25