11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 8th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (Np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 5 Continued Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 6 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Mr. Klippenstein. Good morning. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning. 9 10 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whenever 13 you're ready. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 15 Commissioner, good morning. Good morning, Deputy 16 Commissioner Carson. 17 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 18 19 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: Commissioner and Mr. Carson, 21 I'd like to spend some time this morning going through 22 chronologically some of what happened on the 5th and the 23 6th of September from a particular point of view and 24 following some threads through that. 25 And it would be a point of view or thread
71 I want to follow is the references to involvement of the 2 premier or senior political or governmental individuals 3 or agencies as that information or whatever you want to 4 call it, came through to you. 5 And I've compiled some of those materials 6 in the binder we provided yesterday we had called Volume 7 2. And I believe most of the materials in there are 8 already parts of various exhibits. And they generally 9 are the scribed notes of the command post in handwritten 10 form and typed form as well as transcripts from some of 11 the recordings. 12 And so I would like to begin by asking you 13 to turn to Tab 3. 14 A: Three (3)? 15 Q: Three (3), please. That is Exhibit 16 P-427. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And within Exhibit P-427 it's page 21 390, also -- also Document 1000152. So, that's at Tab 3 22 in that binder. 23 Perhaps I'll start with the typed notes, 24 which are three (3) pages into that tab. And the typed 25 version of those notes are Exhibit P-426, Document
81 1002419. 2 So, if you have that portion of the 3 typewritten scribe notes; at the top it says, "Morning 4 September 5th, 1995." Do you see that? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And if I drop down to the second 7 entry, it's labelled, "8:34 hours," which I take it, 8 means these notes pertain to approximately 8:34 on the 9 morning of September 5th? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: That's right? And -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 13 Mr. Klippenstein, which tab is that in your binder? 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's Tab 3. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three (3)? 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Three (3), yes. 17 Tab 3, several pages in. On the third page in, the 18 typewritten version of the notes should appear labelled 19 at the top, "Morning, 5th of September, 1995. 20 Unless there's an error in the version of 21 the binder that we have -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 23 finding that. 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: It's a fairly 25 thick binder.
91 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 2 thought you said Volume 3? 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Volume 2, I'm 4 sorry. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, Volume 6 2. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Perhaps I 8 misspoke myself. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm in the 10 wrong volume. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm in the wrong volume. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So, Volume 2 12 Tab 3, several pages in. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm with you 14 now. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: And so in the entry for 8:34 in the 18 morning the second paragraph appears to say: 19 "Inspector Carson advised that Marcel 20 Beaubien had been in contact with Staff 21 Sergeant Wade Lacroix and he advised 22 that he was calling the Premier." 23 Right? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Now, that was a conversation between
101 who, Mr. Kobayashi and yourself, it would appear 2 from that entry? Because Mr. Kobayashi appears in the 3 line just above it. 4 A: I suspect this was a briefing of a 5 number of people, but in any case Don Bell was there, Les 6 Kobayashi in the minutes following... 7 Q: Where do you see -- 8 A: But it -- but it's hard to tell. 9 Q: Where do you see -- oh, Don Bell is 10 mentioned above. 11 A: Right. In the same -- 8:34 as well. 12 So, I'm not sure if Bell was present or not. 13 Q: All right. What -- what I'm focussed 14 on is the reference to the Premier and you're -- you 15 obviously have it in your own mind and you're conveying 16 to several other people that Wade Lacroix said that 17 Marcel Beaubien was calling the Premier; right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then, if you could turn to Tab 4, the 20 next tab, that tab, again, has some handwritten notes at 21 the front and then several pages in, it has the 22 typewritten version of those notes. 23 And just for ease of labelling, I'll refer 24 first to the typewritten notes, which are several pages 25 in and those are Exhibit P-426 Document 1002419, labelled
111 at the top "Meeting at 9:25 hours September 5th, 1995": 2 is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You have that? So am I right that 5 appears to be a command post briefing meeting around 6 9:30-ish on September 5th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And if I turn to the second page of 9 those handwritten notes, on page 25 -- 10 A: On the handwritten notes? 11 Q: I beg your pardon, on the typed 12 notes, thank you. The top paragraph says: 13 "John Carson discussed issued about 14 injunction." 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then the last two (2) sentences 18 in that paragraph say: 19 "Lacroix has been in contact with 20 Marcel Beaubien, local Member of 21 Parliament. He is updating the Premier 22 on the situation." 23 That appears to be referring to the same 24 originating phone call that we looked at in the previous 25 notes that were a few minutes earlier, right?
121 A: Correct. 2 Q: And at this meeting, if I look at the 3 first page of those typewritten notes, we have seven (7) 4 individuals, right? 5 There's -- if you just flip the page back, 6 it says "present at meeting". 7 We have John Carson, Trevor Richardson, 8 Mark Wright, Bill Dennis, Brad Seltzer, Stan Korosec, and 9 Don Bell; right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So all those individuals have now 12 been informed by you that apparently Marcel Beaubien is 13 updating the Premier on the situation; right? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And one (1)of the things I'd like to 16 do this morning is just to identify these -- these 17 meetings or discussions in which Mark Wright is present, 18 and I see he's present in this one; right? 19 A: Yes, his name's there, yes. 20 Q: So, Mr. Wright, as -- as the others 21 there, have had the-- the -- the notion of the Premier 22 being contacted put in front of him, right? 23 A: They're aware of the information as 24 outlined here, yes. 25 Q: Right. And then, chronologically,
131 I'll skip over a couple of tabs, go to Tab 6, which is 2 Exhibit P-427. 3 Again, Document Number 1000152, just as, I 4 believe, all the handwritten scribe notes are. So, do 5 you have that Tab 6? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that is an excerpt, again from 8 command post notes of September 5th. These are all 9 chronological that I'll be going through, and although 10 the term "5th" doesn't appear on these, maybe you'll have 11 to take my word on that or correct me if you see any 12 error. 13 This is at Tab 6 of this Volume II of our 14 documents, and if you turned to the typed page, typed 15 handwritten notes that are labelled page 35 at the top, 16 and an entry for 13:32 hours, do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there's a reference to Ed 19 Vervoort of MNR, is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now he was an MNR employee who was 22 assisting in some way or participating in some way? 23 A: He's a conservation officer, I 24 believe, and I believe he was working with the media 25 relations people.
141 Q: All right, and the notes say that: 2 "He advised that Ron Baldwin was still 3 on a telephone conference with the 4 blockade committee." 5 Am I right in understanding that Ed 6 Vervoort from MNR is advising that Ron Baldwin, who's 7 also with MNR, is participating by conference call with 8 the blockade committee or the inter-ministerial committee 9 in Toronto? 10 A: That's fair, yes. 11 Q: Then it goes on to say that: 12 "Ed Vervoort stated that there are two 13 (2) kinds of injunctions: a twenty- 14 four (24) hour emergency one or one 15 that would take two (2) to four (4) 16 weeks to get." 17 Now, would you agree with me that, 18 certainly by this point, Mr. Vervoort is advising the 19 participants in this meeting about the two (2) kinds of 20 injunctions. 21 And one he refers to as an emergency 22 injunction and the other one a longer term injunction. 23 Is that right? 24 A: Yeah, that's what it indicates. 25 Q: And I see the next entry includes
151 Detective Sergeant Wright so -- he joined the meeting as 2 well. 3 Do we know whether Detective Sergeant 4 Wright, can you tell from these notes whether he was 5 there for the discussion of Ed Vervoort? 6 A: It wouldn't appear so. 7 Q: Right. If I flip a couple of pages 8 back to the handwritten version of those notes, the page 9 that is identified as "432" at the top. I see an entry 10 that looks like 1:54, do you see that? This is on the 11 handwritten notes. 12 A: 1:54? 13 Q: There appears to be a time entry for 14 1:54 in the afternoon. 15 A: Which page are we talking about? 16 Q: On -- this is Tab 6, the second page 17 in which is handwritten notes. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And there appears to be an entry at 20 1:54. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that appears to correspond with 25 the handwr -- with the typed notes on the other pages,
161 however in the twenty-four (24) hour notation of 13:54. 2 Is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I just note that in the 5 handwritten version it reports that "MW" reported 6 something. That would be Mark Wright; is that right? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: And it seems to say he met with Bert 9 or Bert -- that would be Bert Manning right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And he mention -- Mark Wright 12 mentions several things. One (1) of the things he says: 13 "Advised they are happy to have burial 14 ground." 15 So Mr. Wright is reporting back to the -- 16 to the group that Bert Manning said They are happy to 17 have the burial ground. Is that -- is that fair? 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: Now parenthetically I note that it 20 would appear that the typed version of those notes don't 21 have a reference to the burial ground. When I turn back 22 to the typed version at the entry for 13:54 hours we 23 again have Detective Sergeant Wright arrive back from the 24 Park. He met with Bert Manning and the notes seem to 25 track it pretty carefully, but the reference to burial
171 ground is omitted in the typed notes; right? 2 A: It's correct. 3 Q: Now if you could turn with me to the 4 next tab in this volume, Tab 7. I guess I would just see 5 if you agree that the notes we've just looked at show 6 that the people in that command post meeting or briefing 7 as of 13:54 on September 5th which is 1:54 in the 8 afternoon of September 5th per this report back from Mark 9 Wright about the concern about the burial grounds; is 10 that fair? 11 A: Who are you suggesting heard it? 12 Q: Well, I'm not sure who was there. 13 Can you enlighten us about -- about that? At 13:54, it 14 doesn't appear to say whether this what part of a meeting 15 or briefing or who heard it. Can you tell? 16 A: I don't get any sense it's a 17 briefing, no. 18 Q: Okay. Do you have any -- enlighten 19 us -- enlighten it for us about in terms of interpreting 20 these -- these handwritten notes. Who would have heard 21 that part about the burial ground that Detective Sergeant 22 Wright was reporting back? 23 A: I suspect myself. 24 Q: Okay. And it's possible just 25 yourself at that point?
181 A: Well, there's no indication there's 2 anyone else there. 3 Q: Okay. Then back to Tab 7 that I just 4 mentioned. And Tab 7 is the transcript of the telephone 5 call between yourself and Inspector Fox on September 5th, 6 1995 at approximately 14:47 or approximately 2:47 in the 7 afternoon; is that fair? 8 A: Correct, yes. 9 Q: That is -- the tape is Exhibit P-428 10 region 16, I believe. Or have I got that wrong? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- the -- this 12 appears in Exhibit P-444A at Tab 16 and it's Call Number 13 16 on the list of calls -- on the CD of calls. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: Thank you. Now, if I look at that 17 transcript and this is about 2:47 in the afternoon of 18 September 5th, down at the first page, Inspector Fox 19 says: 20 "I just want to let you know..." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: He says, quote: 24 I just want to let you know what went 25 on at this inner [I believe he means]
191 inter-ministerial committee on 2 aboriginal issues this morning." 3 And you say, "Okay." 4 And Inspector Fox says: 5 "First of all, the Premier's office had 6 representation there in the form of one 7 (1) Deborah Hutton." 8 And he continues a few lines down: 9 "Basically, the Premier's made it clear 10 to her his position is that there be no 11 different treatment of the people in 12 this situation, in other words, Native 13 as opposed to non-Native." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. Oh, yes. 16 Q: And you say, "Okay." 17 And then Inspector Fox says: 18 "And the bottom line is, wants them 19 out." 20 Now, a couple of questions about that. It 21 would appear that Inspector Fox is saying that the 22 Premier's office had representation at this meeting that 23 he attended of the committee; is that right? Is that the 24 way you understood it? 25 A: I'm sorry?
201 Q: That the Premier's office had 2 representation at the meeting that Inspector Fox 3 attended? 4 A: Oh, yes, Deb Hutton attended -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- according to -- to Ron Fox's 7 information. 8 Q: According to him and the -- and you 9 would have understood that to be what he was saying; is 10 that fair? 11 A: I had no reason to think otherwise. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And she appeared to be there as a 15 representative of the Premier's office, right? 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: And it appears from what Inspector 18 Fox is saying is that the Premier has made the Premier's 19 position clear to her;, is that right? 20 A: That's the insinuation, I suspect. 21 Q: That was what Inspector Fox had 22 concluded, but that's what he was communicating to you, 23 is that... 24 A: That -- that's what he said. 25 Q: Yeah. And what the Premier
211 apparently made clear to her, according to what Inspector 2 Fox is saying, his interpretation, is that there be no 3 different treatment of the people in this situation, 4 Native as opposed to non-Native? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And that's what you understood 7 Inspector Fox was saying and that Inspector Fox was 8 saying that was the position that the premier had made 9 clear to his representative? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Okay. And then the next paragraph, 12 Inspector Fox is saying: 13 "The bottom line is wants them out." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, am I correct in inferring that 17 what Inspector Fox is saying to you and what you 18 understood was that the bottom line from the Premier is 19 that the Premier wants "them" being the occupiers in the 20 Park out of the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. That's the way you understood 23 it, I take it? 24 A: That's what he said. 25 Q: And this was in the conversation
221 between yourself and Inspector Fox whose -- who was in -- 2 in Toronto at that point, right? 3 A: Right. He'd be working out of the 4 Ministry Officer at 25 Grosvenor. 5 Q: Right, at about 2:47 on the 5th? 6 And then if you turn to the next tab, 7 which is Tab 8, we have compiled the handwritten notes 8 and the typewritten version of those notes. And if you 9 could have a glance at those handwritten notes and the 10 typewritten version. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, to get to the bottom line, those 15 appear to be notes of a briefing by you to your command 16 team; is that right? Does that make sense to you? 17 A: Which -- which part of the note are 18 you referring to? 19 Q: This would be the typewritten notes 20 at the top two-thirds (2/3) of the page. We have 21 Detective Sergeant Wright reporting something, you 22 reporting something, Staff Sergeant Dennis, Detective 23 Sergeant Parent, that seems to be -- 24 A: Yes, that -- the top portion of page 25 37 is the briefing, yes.
231 Q: That appears to be... 2 A: A briefing, you -- what you don't 3 have in here is page 36 which shows the briefing starting 4 at -- it looks like 14:17 hours and continuing on to page 5 37. 6 Q: So that would be at 2:17? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: So the briefing would be a briefing 9 in the command post in the form of a meeting of your 10 command team, I think is one (1) way of describing it; is 11 that fair? 12 A: Yes, sure. 13 Q: And if I turn to the handwritten 14 version of that, page 438 at the top. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: You see that? 17 A: 438? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At the bottom there's some initials 21 opposite an entry and the initials are "JC" which I take 22 it means you and indicates you're saying something to the 23 command meeting, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And what those handwritten notes show
241 is: 2 "Premier's no different treatment from 3 anybody else." 4 Right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Now that appears to be you conveying 7 to the command team something of what you had heard from 8 Inspector Fox a little while ago that afternoon on the 9 phone, right? 10 A: Yeah, I repeated the discussion Fox 11 and I had. 12 Q: Right. Now I notice there's just a 13 little bit of a disjunction between the timings, because 14 as you say, the briefing meeting appears to have started 15 before the phone conversation. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Actually I think on the hand -- I 20 think there's concordance at about 15:07 or shortly 21 thereafter. Anyway, the bottom line is, shortly after 22 the phone call with Inspector Fox, you're advising the 23 command team meeting about what these handwritten notes 24 say? 25 A: Sure.
251 Q: Yeah. Now, at that command team 2 meeting, that would be the various senior officers in 3 charge of various aspects of the operation, is that 4 right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It would include Detective Sergeant 7 Wright as well? 8 A: I believe he was there, yes. 9 Q: Yeah. So he heard you say that the 10 Premier -- well, let me back up. The handwritten notes 11 say you said something about Premier and no different 12 treatment from anyone else. 13 Can I fairly conclude that what you were 14 saying to the command team was that you'd received 15 information that the Premier's wishes were that the 16 Natives receive no different treatment from anybody else? 17 Or if I'm -- if I'm mis-stating what these 18 notes suggest, just help me out. 19 A: I would suggest what I was doing was 20 simply informing them what Ron Fox had told me. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: I'm not suggesting -- I would be very 23 cautious to suggest that -- that it was any more than 24 passing information on. 25 Q: Okay. So you were passing on the
261 information you had obtained, as we just discussed a 2 minute ago? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And Detective Sergeant Wright was -- 5 was a part of the audience there as was Staff Sergeant 6 Dennis, Les Kobayashi and others, it would appear? 7 A: That's what it appears, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Also I notice that the 9 typewritten notes have on page 38, have Sergeant Korosec 10 present, apparently? This is in the typewritten notes 11 headed page 38? 12 A: Yes. He has input into the meeting 13 so he must be present. 14 Q: And he was one (1) of the ERT 15 leaders, in fact was sort of co-ordinating ERT leaders; 16 is that right? 17 A: Yes. He would be working out of the 18 command trailer in the position that we discussed 19 yesterday of Lima 1. 20 Q: Right. So now we have various senior 21 officers including Detective Sergeant Wright and the -- 22 and Sergeant Korosec who heads up the ERT, hearing from 23 you the information you received that the Premier has 24 some views on this situation. Is that right? 25 A: That's fair.
271 Q: And one (1) of his views apparently 2 is that the Natives should be treated no differently than 3 anybody else should be treated; is that right? 4 A: That's what I said. 5 Q: Now it strikes me as a little bit 6 unusual that the participation of the Premier and -- let 7 me rephrase that. It seems to me a little unusual that 8 the fact that the Premier had some views on a particular 9 policing situation would be conveyed to the command team. 10 It strikes me as unusual. 11 Do you agree that it is -- it is a bit 12 unusual? 13 A: It's unusual that I would have had 14 access to that information. Normally that would be -- 15 well, the term "unusual" is good. I'm not normally as 16 incident commander aware of -- of any of the Premier's 17 views in regards to our day to day operations. 18 Q: Right. And as -- as we discussed, 19 what is being transmitted to your command team is not 20 only the fact that the Premier has views but actually in 21 substance what those views are on this particular -- in 22 this particular area; is that right? 23 A: That's true. 24 Q: And again, this -- this was 25 approximately mid-afternoon on the 5th; is that right?
281 A: Right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Then I'd ask you to turn to Tab 10 of 6 that volume, which is the second volume of documents we 7 provided to you. And this is the transcript of a 8 conversation between yourself and Lacroix, I believe, 9 although it's identified here as an unknown male. 10 We now know it's Lacroix, right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Happening that same day, September 13 5th at 16:24 which is 4:24, right? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And it's Tape 22 and transcript Tab 16 22 I believe. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And if you turn to page 182, 21 according to the page numbers there, of that transcript, 22 we have at the top the male person, which we now know is 23 Lacroix, saying, 24 "Harris is involved, himself, and quite 25 uptight about it."
291 Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And as I understand it from this 4 conversation, Officer Lacroix is passing on to you 5 information he received from Marcel Beaubien, right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And what that information is, that 8 Premier Harris is involved, but I suppose we could say 9 you already knew that by that -- by this point; is that 10 right? 11 A: That's fair. 12 Q: And then he adds that the Premier is 13 quite uptight about it. And that appears to be conveying 14 to you and -- and I presume you would have understood it 15 to mean that it's Harris and -- who is being referred to, 16 and that according to this source of information, Mr. 17 Harris is quite uptight. 18 And what he's quite uptight about is the 19 situation at Ipperwash; is that -- 20 A: Sure, that's fair. 21 Q: And then Mr. Lacroix makes a comment 22 about a press release and about the law being upheld. 23 And then he says, quote: 24 "So, I would say the signal is that 25 we're going to end up evicting them."
301 There's been a correction to the 2 transcript there, but that's now a record of what that 3 comment was to you; is that right? 4 A: Right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now, when I look at that last comment 9 and the word, "signal," the conversation appears to 10 suggest to me, and tell me if you understood it this way, 11 that there's some kind of signal from the Ministry or the 12 Solicitor General or Premier Harris or some combination 13 of those; is that fair? 14 A: I'm sorry? 15 Q: When Mr. Lacroix said: 16 "So I would say the signal is that 17 we're going to end up evicting them." 18 Well, first of all, would you agree with 19 me that Officer Lacroix is saying to you there's a signal 20 there somewhere? 21 A: Well, that's his terminology, yes. 22 Q: Right. But that's what he's trying 23 to convey to you, there's a signal there? 24 A: Are -- are you -- I guess -- I'm not 25 sure if you're insinuating that, like, John, pay
311 attention here, there's a signal you need to catch or I'm 2 -- I'm not sure what you're... 3 Q: I'm just trying to understand, I 4 guess, how these words were interpreted by you or could 5 have been or should have been interpreted by you -- 6 A: Well, what -- what he's -- he is 7 telling me what he thinks. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And -- and, that's fine. I'm just 10 listening to what he has to say. 11 Q: Right. And what he seems to be 12 saying, then, to you is that there's a signal there, and 13 I'll get to what that is and from whom, but -- 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: -- he's saying to you that there's a 16 signal, right? 17 A: That's what he said, yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And the signal seems to be, 19 from what he's saying to you, according to his 20 suggestion, that the signal is coming from one (1) of the 21 individuals or organizations that he's just mentioned; 22 which would be the Solicitor General and/or the Ministry 23 and/or Premier Harris, right? 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: And the signal that he seems to be
321 saying is being conveyed... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 6 to just wait a minute -- 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for Ms. 9 Twohig to get to the mic? 10 MS. KIM TWOHIG: I apologize for 11 interrupting, Mr. Commissioner, but I had thought that 12 when we went through that tape a typo was noticed and 13 that the words, "the victim," were actually "evicting." 14 And that may or may not make a difference to My Friend's 15 cross-examination, but I thought that had been corrected. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. And -- and I 18 think My Friend did correct that, saying that Mr. 19 Klippenstein said that when he referred to that; it's 20 "evicting." 21 MS. KIM TWOHIG: In that case, I 22 apologize. I didn't hear that. Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 24 Ms. Twohig. 25
331 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: So, continuing with that conversation 3 to you, it appears that what Ms. -- what Mr. Lacroix or 4 Officer Lacroix was saying to you that -- about the 5 signal is that the signal is, from his point of view, 6 that "we're," which would be the OPP; is that right? 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: Would end up evicting them, and 9 "them" would be the occupiers in the Park, is that right? 10 A: That's fair. 11 Q: And so he seems to be saying that the 12 signal from Premier Harris or the Ministry or the 13 Solicitor General or some combination of them is that the 14 OPP is going to end up evicting the protesters of the 15 Park -- in the Park, right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And he apparently chose to use the 18 word "evicting." And can you tell me what you understood 19 him to mean at the time, if anything, about that word 20 "evicting"? 21 A: Well, what that would mean, in my 22 view, is that we're going to be getting on with an 23 injunction. 24 Q: And -- fair enough, but it seems to 25 me that simply getting an injunction is not evicting
341 somebody, that -- that may be part of the process in one 2 (1) scenario, but evicting means somehow bringing about 3 their absence from the park, isn't that fair? 4 A: Right and that was certainly the 5 anticipated outcome of an injunction, I would suspect. 6 Q: And -- however, officer Lacroix does 7 not, I believe, actually refer to an injunction, does he? 8 Do you recall if he did? 9 A: Unless I go through his transcript 10 here, I quite frankly, couldn't recall if he did or he 11 did not. 12 Q: Certainly by the point -- that point 13 in the conversation, he did not -- he had not referred to 14 an injunction; is that right? 15 A: I think that's accurate. 16 Q: And so his reference to "evicting" 17 wasn't, at that point in the conversation, in the context 18 of an injunction because neither of you had mentioned 19 that yet? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, but I don't think 21 that's a fair question and I don't think that that's -- 22 that's an appropriate assumption based on the evidence 23 that we've already heard from the Commissioner -- Deputy 24 Commissioner with respect to injunctions. 25 The fact that there's a -- conversations
351 take place in the background of what's gone before. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You're 3 asking -- you're asking the Deputy what he thought and 4 he's saying in his interpretation it was in the context 5 of an injunction, even though it's not mentioned, I 6 think. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Perhaps My 8 Friend misheard my question or I wasn't clear about it. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I'm -- I didn't 11 make any insinuation, I am trying to understand this 12 conversation and it appears that an injunction -- 13 whatever was in Deputy Commissioner Carson's mind, an 14 injunction had not been mentioned in this telephone call. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 16 agreed with that. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN That's right, 18 and -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, up to 20 this point, anyway. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 23 Q: That's right. And so do you have any 24 reason to believe that officer Lacroix was talking about 25 or thinking about an injunction when he used the word
361 "evicting"? 2 A: Oh, quite frankly, I can't tell you 3 what he was thinking. But what I do know is that Lacroix 4 was involved with some of the planning right from 1993 5 regarding the Military Base. And while he was on annual 6 leave, I believe when the plan was developed for Project 7 Maple specific, he certainly was well aware that the OPP 8 -- OPP's position was always to seek an injunction. 9 So, he certainly would have that 10 understanding. 11 Q: Well, I've been accused from time to 12 time of asking about people's states of mind, and I think 13 you've given -- given some opinion on that right now. 14 But I think I understand your point, which 15 is you're saying that you knew that officer Lacroix had 16 had discussions about an injunction in these situations? 17 A: He would have a significant 18 understanding of that, I would suggest. 19 Q: All right. But whatever else the -- 20 that point from Mr. -- from officer Lacroix may mean, 21 what he was saying was that he believed there was a 22 signal that the OPP was going to end up removing the 23 protesters from the Park; is that fair? 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: And that -- that's potentially an
371 important issue obviously, I take it your suggestion is 2 that -- well, let me just ask. 3 Did you understand when Officer Lacroix 4 was talking about the OPP ending up removing the 5 protesters that that would happen in the context of an 6 injunction? 7 A: I -- I'm sorry I'm not sure if I'm 8 clear on your question. 9 Q: Okay. Let me go back two (2) steps. 10 I believe you agreed with me that Sergeant Lacroix was 11 saying that the signal was that the OPP would end up 12 removing the protesters from the Park? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And I'm suggesting -- and I'm not 15 suggesting, I'm asking, based on you've just said, I take 16 it that you would be understanding that to mean the 17 removal would be in the context of an injunction? 18 A: That's the only context I would 19 accept. 20 Q: Fair enough. You're making -- you're 21 going one step beyond me because my question simply was, 22 I would imagine from what you've told me that your 23 understanding of what Officer Lacroix was saying was that 24 the removal would happen in the context of an injunction? 25 A: Correct.
381 Q: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And if you could turn to Tab 12 of 6 that volume of materials, Volume 2. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And if I look at the typed notes in 11 that -- under that tab, typed note page 39, we have at 12 16:42 -- sorry, 16:31 it would appear the entry 13 pertaining to the discu -- to the phone call transcript 14 we've just reviewed, which is: 15 "Inspector Carson called Staff Sergeant 16 Lacroix and he briefed him regarding 17 discussion with Marcel Beaubien." 18 Is that -- 19 A: I believe that would be accurate, 20 yes. 21 Q: Right. And -- then the next entry is 22 labelled "16:45 hours" or 4:45 on September 5th, correct? 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: And that's a long entry that seems to 25 have lots of people involved. Was that another command
391 team briefing or meeting? I'm sorry, I misspoke myself. 2 It's two (2) entries down, not the next one. The one for 3 16:45. 4 A: Right. And it appears to be a 5 command -- command briefing. 6 Q: Right. And if I go eight (8) or nine 7 (9) or ten (10) paragraphs through that and continue onto 8 page 40, I see a paragraph that says: 9 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 10 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 11 Premier. There is to be a press 12 release by the solicitor general 13 stating that this is not an Indian 14 issue. It is an MNR and provincial 15 issue." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And except for the anomalous 19 reference to Chief Coles, that appears to be your report 20 to the command post of the phone call that we've just 21 reviewed that you had with Lacroix. Does that fit? 22 A: I guess I'd have to assume so. I -- 23 I can't be sure that this is a phone call that I made to 24 Coles at the same time and updated Coles of this 25 information, because I'm not sure why the reference to
401 Coles if I hadn't had some direct discussion with him. 2 So, I -- I'm not sure if I shared this 3 with a group or shared this in a phone call to Coles. 4 It's not clear. 5 Q: In any case, we have, again, at -- at 6 5:00 -- at 4:45 or shortly thereafter, information given 7 to your command team about the involvement of the 8 Premier; is that right? 9 A: Yes. They were updated on the -- on 10 the telephone call. 11 Q: Right. And then, at Tab 14, we have 12 another collection of several pages of the typewritten 13 command post notes plus the corresponding handwritten 14 notes; is that right? 15 A: That appears to be, yes. 16 Q: And these, first of all, appear to 17 have an error in the time mentioning. At the top of the 18 handwritten notes there's an entry of 6:07 or 16:07. Do 19 you see that? 20 A: Yes -- and, yes. 21 Q: And, can you take it for now that 22 that's erroneous and that should be 18:07? And the same 23 applies to the typewritten notes at page 41 where there's 24 an entry of 16:07; it should be 18:07? 25 A: It appears to be.
411 Q: Yeah. 2 A: Without the full context, I -- I'm 3 assuming that's right. 4 Q: Right. I -- we've -- we've gone 5 through this in discovery and elsewhere and unless some 6 dramatic new information pops out, I think that we can 7 consider that to have -- 8 A: That's fair. 9 Q: -- been merely a typographical error. 10 And then, the handwritten notes and these are, again, at 11 Tab 14 of the Volume 2 we prepared you -- for you. The - 12 - this appears to be a discussion involving several 13 people. 14 So, it appears to be another command team 15 briefing meeting; is that fair? 16 A: I'm just checking the notes here -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- if you just give me a moment. 19 Well, the 18:07 entry, yes. 20 Q: And... 21 A: In fact, I believe that's when 22 Inspector Linton came in as well, so it was kind of a 23 cross-briefing here. 24 Q: For purposes of -- of ramping up to 25 the shift change?
421 A: Well, he -- I believe -- we're -- 2 we're talking about the afternoon of the 5th here, I 3 believe this was his first afternoon and he was getting 4 an update. 5 Q: All right. So, beginning with the 6 handwritten version of those notes -- 7 A: If I could just correct myself, 8 Linton came in at 17:02 -- 5:02 p.m. So, he would have 9 been present during that. 10 Q: Okay. So, looking at the handwritten 11 notes I see various initials and individuals. At the top 12 of the handwritten notes I see, "TR" which would be 13 Richardson, is that right? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: "JC", yourself? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "MW", Mark Wright? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Don Bell? 20 A: That's Don Bell, yes. 21 Q: And -- and, several others. There's 22 -- "BS" would be -- who would that be? 23 A: Probably -- 24 Q: Brad Seltzer? 25 A: Sure.
431 Q: And, "Les" would be Les Kobayashi? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And -- and Skinner appears later on, 4 is that right? 5 A: Yes, he does. 6 Q: All right. So, this is, then, a 7 command team meeting at about 6:07 on the evening of the 8 5th. And if you go through several pages of the 9 handwritten notes to the page number 450, in the middle 10 there's an entry "JC" which would be an indication that 11 you are speaking to the meeting; is that right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And it says: 14 "If someone can get it, do it tonight. 15 Bring here to office. Skinner be part 16 of command team." 17 Is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then we have the notation here, 20 "Heat from political side. Made strong 21 comments in the house." 22 Is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And so you are advising the 25 command team meeting of heat and -- of heat from the
441 political side, and would you agree with me or can I 2 infer that you are referring to you political pressure 3 there? 4 A: That's fair. 5 Q: And the notes here say "made strong 6 comments in the house". It would appear that you're 7 conveying that somebody made strong comments, right? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And the term "in the house" I can't 10 decipher, can you tell me what that is? 11 A: Well, my assumption would be that it 12 would be in the legislature, but I think if the record is 13 checked, there was no sitting of the legislature at that 14 time. So I -- I'm not sure how that terminology came, 15 whether that was a term I used or someone else applied 16 it. 17 I mean, it could have been a discussion by 18 any one of the members in -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- in that room, as far as 21 terminology is concerned. 22 Q: Well, to seek further clarification 23 on that, I've included in this tab, a few pages in, a 24 page which I will be the -- I anticipate will be the 25 evidence of Mr. Vervoort in the form of his handwritten
451 notes. 2 Do you see the tab -- the page there? 3 A: Which page is this? 4 Q Sorry, this is a page in -- of 5 handwritten notes in a different handwriting. At the top 6 right, it says, "Production number 7879". 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Which I believe is the number from -- 10 from litigation disclosure. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And Document Number 1007879 page 4, 13 for Inquiry document purposes. And I anticipate that 14 this -- that the evidence will be that these are the 15 handwritten notes of Ed Vervoort. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And at the top, these notes are 18 headed "18:15 briefing, September 5th, 1995", right? 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Which would be, apparently, a 21 briefing at 6:15 on September 5th and there's some 22 discussion in these notes which seems to be very closely 23 linked to the other notes of the command post meeting and 24 I'm suggesting to you that it appears that Mr. Vervoort 25 was a participant in that meeting as well.
461 A: He was. 2 Q: Yeah. And then the last couple of 3 lines in these handwritten notes under that 18:15 4 briefing, say -- appear to say, and tell me if you think 5 this is reading them correctly, quote: 6 "Lots of political pressure - strong 7 in-house comments by Premier/SolGen" 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you think it's fair to infer 11 that these appear to be the notes of Mr. Vervoort about 12 the short discussion in that meeting pertaining to heat 13 from the political side, which we've just reviewed? 14 A: That's fair. 15 Q: And whereas the handwritten notes say 16 "heat from political side" which you agreed refers to 17 political pressure, Mr. Vervoort's notes say, 18 specifically, the words "political pressure." 19 Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Right. Now what his notes appear to 22 add is the word "lots of" political pressure, right? 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: Now -- 25 A: That's what it says.
471 Q: -- he appears to be recording or 2 making notes of what you were telling the meeting, is 3 that right? 4 A: Well, that's -- that's the best 5 assumption one could make. 6 Q: Well, we -- until we hear the 7 evidence of -- of Mr. Vervoort, but would you agree with 8 me since you've agreed that these -- this appears to be 9 the notes of what we've just seen in the command post, he 10 appears to be making notes of what you said to the 11 meeting about political pressure. Is that right? 12 A: That's what it appears to be. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And he uses the words "lots of 16 political pressure". 17 And can you tell me would it be fair to 18 conclude that when he used the words "lots of," in 19 reference to political pressure, he might be accurately 20 quoting or paraphrasing what you had said in that meeting 21 about political pressure? 22 A: Well, I don't -- I don't believe I -- 23 I had indicated there was -- I -- I don't know how I -- 24 how I articulated the conversation with Staff Sergeant 25 Lacroix. But obviously I repeated it. How -- how it was
481 interpreted obviously is -- is in his notes. So he 2 certainly interpreted what I said in that fashion. So if 3 that's what -- if that's your question, the answer is 4 yes. 5 Q: For now it would appear that he 6 interpreted or summarized or paraphrased your comments by 7 writing down what he understood as being a reference to 8 "lots of political pressure"; is that right? 9 A: That's fair. 10 Q: Now this command post meeting is also 11 taking place a few hours after you had your conversation 12 with Ron Fox in which he talked about representation from 13 the Premier's office being at the committee meeting, and 14 in which he talked about the bottom line of the Premier, 15 apparently being, he wants them out. Right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Now the next phrase in Mr. Van -- 18 Vervoort's apparent notes says "strong in-house comments 19 by Premier/Solicitor General". 20 Now I note that apparently Mr. Vervoort 21 has used the word "strong" in relation to the word 22 "comments" in the same way that the handwritten notes 23 have, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: They both talk about "strong"
491 comments, right? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And Mr. Vervoort's notes refer to 4 them as "in-house comments," which to me makes a little 5 more sense than the handwritten notes referenced to "in 6 the house". 7 A: Fair enough. Yeah, sure. 8 Q: And Mr. Vervoort also is talking 9 about those "strong in-house comments" as being made by 10 the Premier and/or the Solicitor General, it would 11 appear. Is that right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: So Mr. Vervoort's notes appear to be 14 saying that you said in that command post meeting, 15 something like there's lots of political pressure and 16 there's been strong in-house comments by the Premier 17 and/or Solicitor General. Is that fair? 18 A: It's fair. 19 Q: And Mark Wright was apparently 20 present and heard those comments; right? 21 A: He was at that meeting, yes. 22 Q: And so was Skinner. And Skinner's 23 the head of the TRU team; is that right? 24 A: Yes, he is. 25 Q: Now would you agree with me that it
501 would be highly unusual for any OPP command team meeting 2 at a incident operation discovering that the Premier was 3 making strong comments about their operation, and that 4 those were being perceived as "lots of political 5 pressure." That's quite unusual would you agree? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 7 minute. Before you answer, Deputy Commissioner. Yes, 8 Mr. Downard. 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: My only concern is 10 the -- the question may be misleading. I -- I don't 11 believe there's evidence that these alleged comments the 12 Premier made in the context of commenting on the police 13 operations. 14 We're talking about -- we're talking a 15 life's comments in the context of the government 16 discussion of an injunction. 17 And so My Friend is putting those as 18 comments on the police operations, and that's -- that's 19 not correct. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I stand 21 corrected, and let me -- let me rephrase that. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: The -- the comments that you 25 apparently made about political pressure and about
511 comments by the Premier appear to relate to the Ipperwash 2 issue in some way; is that right? 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: And you appeared to think, at that 5 time, that they were of at least some significance for 6 the police operation at Ipperwash, because otherwise you 7 wouldn't have mentioned them, because you didn't have 8 time to talk about irrelevant stuff, right? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I'm not sure I can agree with your 13 insinuation or I'm not sure if I -- 14 Q: I'm not insinuating anything, I'm 15 trying to understand why you would have taken the time to 16 raise, in your command team meeting, comments about the 17 Premier and/or Solicitor general that included references 18 to lots of political pressure and -- and that the 19 comments were strong comments. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 21 you just ask the question that way, exactly that way. 22 Why did you make those comments? 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Well, consider 24 it asked. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's
521 better. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: Let me try and rephrase that. Well, 5 let me try and repeat it, sorry. Or if -- if you 6 understood the -- the Commissioner's restatement -- 7 A: Yes, I did understand him, yes. I 8 made those comments because they were relevant to the 9 process that was underway around the injunction. And all 10 the command team were well aware that there was a lot of 11 information flying around and trying to determine how and 12 what kind of an injunction was going to take place. 13 And what I was trying to do was keep them 14 informed that there was a lot of activity going on in -- 15 in trying to dealing with this injunction process. 16 And, quite frankly, if I -- if I did 17 anything in this particular case, I probably erred on 18 sharing far too much information with them. 19 Q: Why do you say that was an error, or 20 probably an error? 21 A: Well, for the simple reason that 22 sharing what I heard and what I knew is certainly going 23 to -- is open for everyone's interpretation, despite what 24 I was trying to achieve. 25 Q: I see.
531 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're just 4 about ready for a morning break. Would you like to do it 5 now, or would you like to continue? 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I'm in your 7 hands, whatever -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're in 9 yours, because you -- 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you know 12 where you're going with this. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I'm flexible 14 either way. I'll continue if you wish, or if it's a 15 convenient time, then I'm happy to break now. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 17 could use -- well, we could go a bit longer. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 20 the afternoon to be too long -- 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So let's go 23 a -- 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Ill go -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a bit
541 longer. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN -- a few more 3 minutes, then. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 6 Q: Well, would you agree with me that 7 first of all, Mr. Vervoort doesn't seem to record that 8 the political pressure and the in-house comments, as he 9 understands your comments, apparently, refer to an 10 injunction. 11 He doesn't talk about an injunction in -- 12 in recording those comments, right? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 14 an objection, Mr. Sandler? You look like you're thinking 15 about it. 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, I wasn't thinking 17 about it. I'm just -- I'm just a little tired. 18 In the scribe notes, the very conversation 19 that's being put to Deputy Commissioner Carson is that 20 he's communicating "heat from political side, made strong 21 comments in the house," but then informs his team, "Court 22 injunction moving along." 23 And -- and the danger here is that if 24 we're going to engage in the exercise of trying to 25 interpret Vervoort's notes when we have scribe notes that
551 this officer has some responsibility for, that does deal 2 with the injunction, then to say Vervoort doesn't have 3 it, I think is a little bit unfair to the Witness, I say 4 with great respect. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I was going to 6 raise that, certainly, Commissioner. I was going to -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And I was not 9 so dumb to think that My Friends wouldn't notice it if I 10 didn't raise it so... 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, I wasn't 12 suggesting anything improper. I just -- I thought the 13 scribe notes are really more the officer's notes than 14 Vervoort's. And that's really where we should start, 15 with respect. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: Well, first of all -- and I'll get to 21 what My Friend has raised, but the reality is, that if 22 you look at Vervoort's notes he talks about lots of 23 political pressure and strong in-house comments by the 24 Premier and Solicitor General. He doesn't record 25 anything about an injunction when he makes those notes,
561 right? 2 A: You're accurate in your observation. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: You're accurate in your observation. 5 Q: Yes. Thank you. All right. Now, 6 going back to the handwritten notes, which we looked at 7 earlier, and which My Friend has raised again, the 8 comments and these -- these are now the handwritten notes 9 page 450. Do you see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: We looked at the comments: 12 "Heat from political side. Made strong 13 comments in the House." 14 And then, the next sentence says: 15 "Court injunction moving along." 16 Right? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And it appears from these notes that 19 the references about heat from the political side and the 20 strong comments were made before the reference to the 21 injunction, is that right? 22 A: Well, that's the order it is in the 23 notes, yes. 24 Q: Right. And is there any indication 25 from these notes that you can -- that you would suggest
571 that indicates that the heat from the political side is 2 somehow connected to the note about the injunction? 3 A: Quite frankly, I -- I can't recall 4 the context of how I said it. So I -- I'm really not in 5 a very good position to indicate one (1) way or the 6 other, quite frankly. 7 Q: All right. Now, is it -- do you have 8 any comment, either recollect -- recollection or 9 inference from these notes that were made, apparently, of 10 your comments, any suggestion about whether, in fact, 11 those comments about political pressure were connected to 12 the comment of injunction? 13 A: As I indicated earlier, my -- my only 14 point here is that I was sharing information with the 15 team that -- that there had been significant 16 discussion about the process of the injunction. And as - 17 - as indicated directly thereafter I -- I indicated the 18 court injunction is moving along. Keep tonight quiet. 19 Keep on the checkpoints. 20 So, I mean, all -- only -- the context 21 that I can put to it is, you know, there's -- there's all 22 kinds of issues swirling here around this injunction, but 23 it is moving along. Exactly how the context and how I 24 articulated it to them, I simply can't remember what -- 25 how I said it ten (10) years ago, I'm sorry.
581 Q: Well, let's suppose for a moment that 2 the two (2) are connected, the political pressure and the 3 injunction. 4 Why would you bother raising a discussion 5 of political pressure when you're talking about an 6 injunction, because your position has always been, that's 7 not the police's business, it's the government's 8 business, right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: So, why would you even mention 11 political pressure if it was only about the injunction? 12 Is there any rationale? 13 A: Well, as I indicated earlier, my -- 14 my approach to this was to try and keep the team informed 15 of -- of what was going on to the best of my ability and 16 being open with them around what was happening in the 17 background, so they understood what I was dealing with 18 and so they could have some appreciation in regards to 19 time lines and all -- all the logistics that goes with an 20 operation like this. 21 And you know, quite frankly in hindsight, 22 do they need to know all of that? They didn't need to 23 know all of that. And I shared it with them and that's 24 the fact. 25 Q: Now, I said for a moment -- I said a
591 moment ago, assume that the reference to political 2 pressure is connected to the injunction discussion. But 3 I want to ask whether that's, in fact, what we should 4 assume. 5 I notice that -- or as we've looked 6 through this stuff, there was, in your discussion with 7 Ron Fox on the phone a few hours before this, his advice 8 to you or advisement to you that the Premier's assistant 9 apparently had conveyed that the Premier wanted them out; 10 right? 11 A: Well, I'd like to make one (1) point 12 here -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- is first of all, Ron Fox shared 15 information with me and in -- in no way, shape, or form 16 is that advice on how I do my job. It is information as 17 he experienced it and that's fine and that's good 18 information. 19 But as far as considering it advice to me, 20 clearly it is not. 21 Q: I meant advice in the terms of 22 advisement as I said. But, I -- I -- 23 A: Okay. Well, I take the point back. 24 Q: But in that discussion in the phone 25 conversation in which Inspector Fox conveyed to you that,
601 apparently Deb Hutton had received information from 2 Premier Harris that Premier Harris' position, wants them 3 out. 4 Now, in that little discussion, Inspector 5 Fox didn't talk about an injunction, did he? 6 A: I believe the -- the main part of the 7 phone call was to do with injunction, if I'm not 8 mistaken. 9 Q: But when you look at the transcript, 10 that wasn't, as we just did, that injunc -- the topic of 11 injunction was not attributed to Premier Harris or to Deb 12 Hutton; is that right? 13 A: I've lost you there, I'm sorry. 14 Q: Let me re-phrase that. As we just 15 looked at in the transcript, when Inspector Fox was 16 conveying to you the apparent position of the Premier, 17 Inspector Fox did not talk about an injunction, in terms 18 of what the Premier wanted? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And so when you conveyed to your 21 command post comments about heat from the political side 22 or political pressure, is it fair for me to -- to infer 23 that one of the things that was in your mind was what Ron 24 Fox had said about Deb Hutton and the Premier and "wants 25 them out"?
611 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure of what 2 you're asking. 3 Q: Let me repeat that or re-phrase that. 4 The notes record you as saying something like, Heat from 5 the political side and lots of political pressure. When 6 -- you did say something like that; is that fair? 7 A: Fair enough. 8 Q: Now when you said something like 9 that, can we reasonably infer that one (1) of -- at least 10 one (1) of the things you had in your mind was what Ron 11 Fox had told you about the Premier wanting them out? 12 A: Oh, fair enough, sure. 13 Q: Okay. And is it also fair for us to 14 infer that another thing that you probably had in your 15 mind when you made these comments about heat from 16 political side and political pressure, is the comment by 17 Lacroix that the signal is, he wants them out. Or one 18 (1) of the -- let me rephrase that. 19 That one (1) thing -- another thing you 20 had in your mind was Lacroix's comments about the signal 21 being that they want you to evict them? 22 A: I was aware of that information. 23 Q: And that would have been also in your 24 mind and part of what you had in mind when you were 25 making these comments about political pressure; is that
621 fair? 2 A: I -- I'm not sure what you mean when 3 I said what I had on my mind. 4 Q: Well, you obviously had something on 5 your mind, to -- 6 A: Well, as I indicated a couple of 7 times now, I -- I continued to update my team. And I 8 shared the information that I received from Ron Fox and 9 also from Lacroix with -- with the team. 10 I also indicated how we were proceeding 11 with the injunction. And, as I indicated earlier, I was 12 trying to keep my team apprised of all the activities 13 going on. 14 I didn't take from that, anything that 15 suggested that we change our approach to this. It was 16 business as usual, in my view, but it was certainly a 17 report of activity that was taking place in Toronto or at 18 the ministry level and obviously, some of the political 19 comments that were being made. 20 Q: Well, we'll -- we'll -- we'll address 21 and ask questions about the issue of what effect these 22 might or might not have had, but for now, let me ask a 23 little more detail. 24 You -- has -- you agreed that when you 25 referred to "heat from the political side" at least one
631 (1) of the things that you had in your mind was Inspector 2 Fox's comments that the Premier had a position and that 3 the position was that the bottom line is he wants them 4 out, right? 5 A: I was aware of that information, yes. 6 Q: Now, you apparently, because both 7 notes record, said that some of these comments were 8 strong comments; right? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And I'm suggesting to you that at 11 least one thing you were referring to when you said these 12 were strong comments, was that Mr. Fox had said the 13 Premier didn't want any separate, any different treatment 14 for Natives, right? 15 A: He said that, yes. 16 Q: Right, and that would have been a 17 strong comment, right? 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: And Ron Fox said the Premier's bottom 20 line is, wants them out, and that also was a strong 21 comment, right? 22 A: That's what he said, yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And that's a strong comment, 24 right? 25 A: Sure.
641 Q: So those would be some of the strong 2 comments you had in mind when you conveyed this to the 3 command team, is that right? 4 A: I was aware of them, yes. 5 Q: Yeah. And -- and that's what was 6 included in your comments about strong comments? 7 A: I shared that with them, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Now, I don't see in these 9 notes, any reference to or any recording of a reminder to 10 the command team that you are professional police 11 officers and you are supposed to do your job, regardless 12 of lots of political pressure and strong in-house 13 comments. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Sandler...? 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: If My Friend wants to 17 ask the Witness, though, it might be a Herculean effort 18 to deal with it as a matter of memory, whether there's 19 any such references, that's fine. 20 But to suggest there are none, when we 21 know there are some, I mean for -- I mean, earlier in the 22 day, My Friend put to him the comment, "Premier, no 23 different treatment than any -- anyone else", and then 24 didn't read the very next line that deals with, you know, 25 "but we're going to --" -- I can't remember the exact
651 phrase, whether it's business as usual, or we're staying 2 the course, or we're holding the line, or what have you. 3 And that was fine, I'll deal with that 4 kind of thing in -- in my examination. But I don't think 5 it's fair to suggest that there are no such indications. 6 I would suggest that we have many examples 7 that suggest that whatever the politicians are saying and 8 however they're interpreted, we're staying the course, 9 this is the way we're proceeding, and -- and the like. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 12 on behalf of ALST, I want to indicate that from the point 13 of view of ALST, the objection is problematic on two (2) 14 levels. 15 First of all, it unfortunately and 16 regrettably signals to the witness, not on purpose or 17 advertently, something that might be useful in an answer. 18 And it creates the unfortunate perception that the 19 witness, through no fault of his own, his lawyer is 20 speaking, is going to bring that into his answer -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The question was a 23 very fair question. The question was, I don't see 24 anything in these notes about you training or cautioning 25 your people that this kind of political pressure can
661 unfortunately influence you and avoid it. 2 That's what Mr. -- the thrust of Mr. 3 Klippenstein's question was, and there's clearly nothing 4 in the notes that says that. But unfortunately, now 5 because of the objection, which then Mr. Sandler went on 6 to say, Well, I guess I'll deal with that in re-exam; 7 well, that's right, that's what should have happened, but 8 it didn't. We don't exclude witnesses here. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And I think it's 11 very important that Counsel is careful, because we don't 12 exclude witnesses, that those kinds of comments don't 13 create the unfortunate tailoring of evidence. I think 14 Mr. Klippenstein's question is central and it should be 15 simply answered. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Falconer. Yes, Mr. Downard? 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I set about a 19 slightly different concern. I'm -- I'm just concerned 20 that My -- My Friend, essentially dealing with what this 21 Witness understood from Mr. Fox on a -- on a -- a short - 22 - short form basis, I think it's just pressure, and wants 23 them out, is coming -- it was running a serious risk of 24 misleading the witness and misleading the -- the public 25 as to what information the Witness was provided with.
671 And My Friend has been spending a lot of 2 time on the conversation with Fox, and the conversation 3 with Fox concludes on this note. Mr. Fox says: 4 "Let me assure you that I pushed them 5 and they're going to apply for this 6 enjoining order. 7 MR. CARSON: Okay. 8 MR. FOX: And it sounds like they'll 9 do the emergent form. 10 CARSON: Good. Good. Okay, well, 11 hold the line, I have another line 12 ringing here." 13 So, My Friend is not putting the point. 14 If My Friend is trying to suggest that, as he has on many 15 occasions, that the Premier was, in some fashion, 16 directing the police to take violent action against the 17 protesters, then he hasn't got a foundation for that, and 18 he can only have that by slurring it over. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I gather 20 there are objections to the objections and objections to 21 the objections? 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: I -- I just want to 23 comment on Mr. Falconer's point. 24 I've been very quiet during the -- during 25 the examination and --
681 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- and even though I - 3 - in my submission that Mr. Falconer's point would be 4 well-taken if the question is simply whether, looking at 5 this particular note there's any reference to it; that 6 wasn't the question that -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- Mr. Klippenstein 9 asked. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was 11 whether -- 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: It was a general 13 question and the suggestion was, they're not anywhere. 14 And even that wouldn't be problematic expect for the fact 15 that when My Friend deals with other references to the 16 politicians, for example, and I've cited this, the 17 Premier's "no different treatment from anyone else," and 18 the -- and the note is, "we're okay, on the right track." 19 And I just think one can't combine -- 20 we're only going to give you the passages that 21 specifically use the words, "politicians", and then 22 suggest to a witness over ten (10) years of documents 23 that there's nothing there. 24 I -- I just think there's a basic 25 unfairness there. I take Mr. Falconer's point, I'm not
691 going to put words in the Witness' mouth, but I think 2 that question generated that response. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 Are we okay now, Mr. Klippenstein? I think this would be 5 a good point to take a break. We've got the -- 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That sounds 7 good. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- comments 9 on board and we'll carry on from there. We'll take a 10 break. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 10:28 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 10:50 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed, please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 22 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. 23 Deputy Commissioner Carson, let me resume 24 where we were before the break and if you could have 25 before you at -- have before you the -- the -- what is
701 apparently the handwritten notes of Mr. Vervoort of the 2 18:15 briefing of September 5th, 1995, which is Document 3 1007879 page 4; do you have that in front of you? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: Now, I'd again like you -- like to 6 refer you to the last couple of lines in the entry for 7 that date, which says, quote: 8 "Lots of political pressure - strong 9 in-house comments by Premier/Solicitor 10 General." 11 I don't see here, in these notes of Mr. 12 Vervoort for this day, any reference to you in that 13 meeting cautioning the officers that they should not 14 permit themselves to be influenced by the political 15 pressure that's referred to; that doesn't appear in his 16 notes, correct? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Do you recall if you did, in fact, so 19 caution your officers? 20 A: In this -- in this particular time 21 and day? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: There's no note that I did. 24 Q: Which possibly means that you didn't 25 at that point, right?
711 A: That's fair. 2 Q: And do you have any other evidence 3 that, in fact you did at this meeting? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Wouldn't it have been appropriate for 6 you to so caution your officers because, at least 7 according to these notes, you have talked about a fairly 8 high degree of political pressure, which is suggested by 9 the word "lots," and some fairly forceful comments, which 10 is suggested by the word "strong"? 11 I'm suggesting to you it would have been 12 appropriate for you to caution your officers not to 13 permit themselves to be influenced by this pressure. 14 A: I -- I'm sorry -- is there a 15 question? 16 Q: Would you agree with -- with me that 17 it would have been appropriate, and it would've been 18 better if you had done so? 19 A: No, I don't agree with you. 20 Q: You don't agree with me. So you 21 think it's -- it's -- there's nothing untoward or 22 problematic with you advising your command team that 23 there's lots of political pressure, and there's strong 24 in-house comments by the Premier and/or Solicitor 25 General, and not also reminding them that they shouldn't
721 permit themselves to be influenced by it? 2 A: I don't think there's anything 3 untoward with me briefing our managers. And they very 4 clearly, as you quite right outlined in the chain of 5 command, they know who their supervisors are, what the 6 responsibilities are. 7 There is -- the officers know very well 8 what their obligations are, and how they must conduct 9 themselves. And quite frankly, their direction comes 10 from the Incident Commander, they understand the -- the 11 command and control process that's in place. 12 And I would suggest that they understand 13 implicitly that they will follow the orders as -- as 14 provided from their supervisors. 15 Q: And the officers follow your orders, 16 but they also use their own judgment in various aspects 17 of their work, is that right? 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: And would you agree with me that they 20 should not allow the kind of political pressure that is 21 referred to here, to influence that judgment, in those 22 occasions? 23 A: Well in -- in the note here that -- 24 where this is all discussed, I advised the members that 25 the court injunction is moving along. I advised the
731 members to keep tonight quiet, keep an eye on the 2 checkpoints, and advise logistics of what your locations 3 are. 4 It's business as usual, they're hearing it 5 from me personally, they know what the expectation is. 6 Q: Well, my question however was, 7 wouldn't it be advisable to remind them that when they 8 are exercising their judgment in their jobs, and -- and 9 to advise them specifically to remember not to let this 10 high degree of strong political pressure influence that 11 judgment; that was my question. 12 A: Quite frankly I don't see that 13 there's a need to remind them about that, they understand 14 their job as a police officer, quite frankly. They -- 15 they are not accustomed to taking orders from politicians 16 or any other non-police personnel in how they conduct 17 their business, sir. 18 I mean, it's just a matter of routine. 19 It's not -- I'm not trying to flippant with you here, 20 it's how police do their business. 21 Q: And do you think that so long as they 22 are not taking orders as such, there's not a problem? 23 Isn't there another possibility which is that their 24 judgment will be influenced by this type of political 25 pressure?
741 A: I would suggest police officers, 2 every day, are well aware of various opinion in the 3 community, of local politicians, of broader political 4 issues in the province, across the country, around the 5 world; but they still do their job as expected of them 6 within their police agency. 7 They -- they have to work within the 8 confines of Police Services Act and -- and the command 9 that they work within. 10 Q: Well, if you're suggesting that it's 11 normal for police to do their proper policing job in the 12 -- real world context of various influences, I'm not sure 13 I disagree with that. 14 But what we have here, according to these 15 notes of Mr. Vervoort, is something that is a little 16 different than that. 17 What we have here is a reference, 18 apparently by you, to lots of political pressure, and 19 strong comments from, it would appear, the Premier or the 20 Solicitor General; that's something quite different, it 21 appears to me, from what you've just mentioned. 22 Given the facts that you have apparently 23 talked about the highest official in the Ontario 24 government, and you have said that there are comments 25 from him or the Solicitor General that are strong, and
751 that there is lots of political pressure, wouldn't you 2 agree that is quite different from the ordinary hustle 3 and bustle of a police officer in their community 4 context? 5 A: Well, I -- I'm not sure we want to 6 debate every instance that a police officer would feel 7 there is influence at a local level, but -- 8 Q: That wasn't my question. 9 A: No, I -- I appreciate that, but you - 10 - you inferred to the difference between my first analogy 11 and yours. But what is clear here is that I provided 12 information to them, and I provided the continuing 13 direction. And I was satisfied they understood what the 14 direction was, and that they would carry it out as I -- 15 as I directed. 16 Q: Well, one (1) problem I have, Deputy 17 Commissioner Carson, is that an example that concerns me 18 is that as I understood your evidence so far, there was 19 no plan to use the crowd management unit in the incident 20 at Ipperwash at all, yet that's exactly what happened. 21 In fact, as I recalled in a conversation 22 you had with Mr. Lacroix, and he asked about the CMU, you 23 said there were no plans to do that, and it happened. 24 So when you say that they follow your 25 directions, I wonder if we don't have a bit more of a
761 problem than what you've just said. 2 Now, it wasn't you who called out, or 3 initially formed up the CMU, was it? 4 A: Well, we haven't really discussed 5 that process -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- but, technically, yes. I -- I'm 8 the one who -- who ordered the CMU formed up. 9 Q: All right, so that was you? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: All right, and so that, you were 12 saying, occurred after you arrived at the Command Post? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: All right. Now what about the TRU 15 team? The TRU team was called -- called up -- 16 A: Yes, they were. 17 Q: And that was -- that was done not by 18 you, initially; is that right? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: That was done by Inspector Linton? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And I believe the evidence will show 23 that Inspector Linton called up the TRU team to make 24 arrests; isn't that right? 25 A: That's right, that's his evidence.
771 Q: And would you agree with me that it 2 is not one (10 of the purposes of the TRU team to make 3 ordinary arrests, is that -- 4 A: It's not normally; correct. 5 Q: That's right. And TRU team is not 6 for purposes of really making arrests at all, except in 7 very exceptional situations; isn't that right? 8 A: In -- in high risk. 9 Q: High risk situations, yes. So I'm 10 just wondering when you say that everybody followed 11 instructions and knew their job, we have the anomaly of a 12 TRU team being called out to make arrests. And so that, 13 perhaps, is an example of -- of -- of a -- of a -- of a 14 command to call up the TRU team, which wasn't really 15 according to the plan, isn't that right? 16 A: I didn't call the team out, sir; that 17 wasn't my decision to call the TRU team out. I -- I'm 18 not -- you know, I can't justify what the rationale 19 behind Inspector Linton's thinking was in him making that 20 call, the fact of the matter is, he called them up. I 21 think my evidence is clear that I -- I would not have 22 done it in that same fashion. 23 Q: All right. And another issue that I 24 raised with you earlier was that I -- I anticipate the 25 evidence will show that it was Detective Sergeant Wright
781 who held back the day shift, and that's what subsequently 2 became the crowd management unit; is that right? 3 A: They're -- they're the people that 4 make up the crowd management unit. He held back the day 5 shift, and you're accurate about that, but he did not 6 have the authority to deploy a crowd management team. 7 Q: But he exercised his judgment to hold 8 back the day shift; correct? 9 A: Oh, sure. Sure he did. 10 Q: And you would expect that when he was 11 exercising that judgment, he would not be influenced by 12 political pressure, is that fair? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And -- and he should not allow 15 himself to be influenced by political pressure, is that 16 fair? 17 A: That's fair. 18 Q: All right. So, Detective Sergeant 19 Wright's radioing in, and -- and -- and speaking with 20 Sergeant Korosec, and holding back the day shift, is an 21 example of a pretty significant judgmental decision that 22 Detective Sergeant Wright made without orders from 23 anybody; right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Now, I am just wondering if it would
791 not have -- and -- and frankly, would you agree with me 2 that the decision to hold back the day shift was a key 3 decision in the way events unfolded on the night of 4 September 6th? 5 A: I'm not sure I understand. 6 Q: Well, Detective Sergeant Wright knew 7 that the day shift was heading home, right? 8 A: Yes. They were coming back to the 9 Forest Detachment for a debriefing at the end of their 10 shift. 11 Q: And if Detective Sergeant Wright had 12 not called -- held them back, they would have dispersed? 13 A: Right. We would have had to page 14 them back out. 15 Q: And that's a pretty significant bit 16 of work to page them all back, right? 17 A: Well, they're all on group page. 18 It's -- it's not a big deal, but it's certainly an 19 aggravation if they've gone to various motels, and are 20 now out of uniform, they have to get dressed and come 21 back in. Logistically, it's an aggravation I guess I 22 would say, but -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- certainly nothing that's uncommon. 25 It doesn't make any sense to send them off to the end of
801 their shift, and then -- with the potential of requiring 2 them back in an hour. So, I mean, it's just -- it's 3 logistically an issue, that's all. 4 Q: And if Detective Sergeant Wright had 5 not held back the day shift, would you agree with me that 6 it would have taken longer to deploy the CMU that 7 evening? 8 A: Possibly a little bit. 9 Q: And would you agree with me that once 10 the day shift has been held back, there is a certain 11 questioning, or expectation in the minds of everybody 12 that they might be used; is that fair? 13 A: No. I -- I think that's unfair. 14 Q: Well, would you agree with me that 15 certainly the holding back of the day shift, by Detective 16 Sergeant Wright, made the -- the organization of the CMU 17 easier? 18 A: Certainly. 19 Q: And so the decision to hold back the 20 day shift was -- how long did -- were they held back, do 21 you know, before they were -- a decision was made to 22 retain them? 23 A: I'd have to go through the binder 24 here to try to determine that. Obviously, it was after I 25 -- I was returning to the command post.
811 Q: And no decision -- is this fair to 2 say that no decision was made what to do with the held 3 back shift until you arrived at the command post, is that 4 right? 5 A: Well, at some point, and I'm not sure 6 if it was Dale Linton that directed that Lacroix be 7 called out, because Lacroix is a crowd management leader. 8 But the decision to move them forward to 9 the -- to the TOC site, was after my arrival back and 10 having discussion with Inspector Linton. 11 Q: And the decision to call in Lacroix, 12 he was the one who headed up the CMU, right? 13 A: Yes, he's a CMU leader. 14 Q: And the decision to call him up was 15 made before you arrived at the command post? 16 A: If my memory serves me correctly, I 17 believe he was called in, en route, by the time I 18 returned to the command post, but I -- I could be 19 mistaken on that. 20 Q: And was it you who instructed that 21 Lacroix be called back -- called in? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Right. So somebody else decided to 24 call in the crowd management unit head, other than you? 25 A: Right.
821 Q: So we have -- do you know if that was 2 Mark Wright? 3 A: I don't know that, sir. 4 Q: So we have Mark Wright holding back 5 the day shift and we have Mark Wright, or somebody else, 6 calling in the head of the -- of the crowd management 7 unit; that wasn't you as well, either? 8 A: I'm sorry? 9 Q: Let me re-phrase that. So we have 10 two (2) decisions here pertaining to the CMU which were 11 made not by you. The decision to hold back the day 12 shift -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- was Mark Wright; correct? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And it wasn't you who called in 17 Lacroix, who heads up the CMU; right? 18 A: That's correct. I know there's a 19 phone call I believe -- well, no I'm -- I'm not sure, I'm 20 not going to make a statement I'm not sure of. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The evidence is that - 22 - if My Friend would take the Witness to page 74 of 23 Exhibit 426 that deals with a tele -- deals with the 24 situation of the -- Lacroix. There's materials here. 25
831 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: If Mr. Millar had not interrupted me 3 that would have been my next step. I -- do you have 4 access to page 74 of the -- let me just -- let me just 5 refer to it, and if there's -- if you have any concerns, 6 we can call it up. 7 But the -- the typed Command Post notes 8 say at 20:21 hours, Stan Korosec called Wade Lacroix to 9 attend. Advised Mark Wright and Dale Linton. Does that 10 sound correct to you? 11 A: That -- that's fair. 12 Q: So what this says is that -- that 13 Sergeant Korosec called Lacroix. Do you know if someone 14 else instructed Sergeant Korosec to make that call? 15 A: I wasn't in the command post, as you 16 know. 17 Q: Right. Right. 18 A: So I -- I have no idea what 19 discussion took place. It says: 20 "Stan Korosec called Wade Lacroix to 21 attend. Advised Mark Wright and Dale 22 Linton." 23 So I don't know if the three (3) of them 24 had a discussion in regards to Lacroix, or how that 25 played out; certainly I wasn't party to that discussion.
841 Q: Were there any other decisions, that 2 you're aware of, that were made with respect to the 3 formation of the CMU, that were made before you arrived 4 at the command post? 5 A: Not that I'm aware of. 6 Q: And so we have three (3), at least 7 three (3) significant decisions that were made on the 8 evening of the 6th, before you arrived back at the 9 command post, by persons other than you. 10 One was the holding back of the day shift, 11 the second one was the calling in of Lacroix as the head 12 of the CMU, and the third was the calling in of TRU, 13 right? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: To get back to my questions of a few 16 minutes ago, given that these kinds of significant 17 decisions are being made by other members of your command 18 team, would you not agree that it would have been better 19 if, when you commented on lots of political pressure, you 20 had reminded your command team that they should not 21 permit themselves to be influenced by political pressure? 22 A: My answer remains the same, sir. 23 Q: All right. And your answer is? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you.
851 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: When I look at who was at that 4 command post meeting at -- at 18:07 or 18:15, where the 5 notes record or paraphrase references to lots of 6 political pressure, I see that Wright was there; correct? 7 A: We're talking about the meeting on 8 the 5th? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: So Wright was there, correct? 12 A: Yes, he was. 13 Q: And Wright was the one who held back 14 the -- the day shift, right? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And I see Korosec was there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And he was the one who made the call 19 to Lacroix the next evening, right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And was Linton at that meeting? 22 A: Yes, he was. 23 Q: And he's the one who called out the 24 TRU team, right? 25 A: That's correct.
861 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, continuing chronologically, if 4 you go to Tab 20 of the Volume II binder I've provided to 5 you, and that's... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 10 Q: And those -- the transcripts and the 11 -- and the corresponding tape, the tape is Exhibit 420 -- 12 P-428, region -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 444 -- P-444 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN The -- 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: The tape -- no. The transcript is P- 18 444A, Tab 37 and the corresponding tape. That's -- the 19 transcript is Exhibit P-444A, Tab 37 and you have it at - 20 - at the Tab 20 of your binder? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: Thank you. 24 Q: And the transcript -- the tape -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's P-428.
871 2 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 3 Q: Is four (4) -- is P-428, region 35, 4 just for the record. 5 And this is the September 6th phone call 6 in the afternoon, at approximately two o'clock, between 7 yourself and Inspector Fox; correct? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: In which Inspector Fox is on the line 10 from Toronto; is that right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And this is the tape in which 13 Inspector Fox tells you that they're making moves to get 14 an ex parte injunction. 15 And that's at page 259 of the transcript, 16 halfway down? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And then, at the bottom of page 260 19 of the transcript, Inspector Fox says: 20 "The political people are really 21 pushing." 22 Correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And he says -- continuing, he says: 25 "They're pushing to get this done
881 quick." 2 It's the next page at the top. 3 A: Okay. Yes. 4 Q: And then at page 262, in the bottom 5 half of the page, Inspector Fox says that in -- that: 6 "The government [he says] there's no 7 question they couldn't give a shit less 8 about Indians." 9 Right? Do you see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then, on page 263, there's a 12 reference to the Premier that -- that Inspector Fox 13 attended a meeting with the Premier; is that right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And right at the bottom, as we 16 discussed, Inspector Fox says that the Premier believes 17 that the OPP made mistakes and should have done something 18 right at the time; is that right? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And that he believes he has the 21 authority to direct the OPP; is that right? 22 A: That's what it says, yes. 23 Q: And so what we have here is a 24 number of comments to you by Inspector Fox about the 25 Premier's involvement on the issue; is that right?
891 A: Sure. 2 Q: And this is consistent with what 3 Inspector Fox conveyed to you at the beginning of -- 4 beginning of the conversation on the previous day when 5 Inspector Fox said that according to Harris' 6 representatives -- Premier Harris' representative, the 7 bottom line is, he wants the native protesters out of the 8 Park; is that right? 9 A: Yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, this conversation with Inspector 14 Fox was in -- occurring, as we discussed, while you were 15 having a meeting with Chief Coles and Superintendent 16 Parkin in a certain part of the command post; is that 17 right? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Now, at -- at the same time, in 20 another part of -- was it the command post -- there was 21 also a -- a meeting going on with other members of your 22 command team? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Well, I should -- I should have first 25 of all given you a little background information to see--
901 A: Well, there -- there could have been 2 another meeting going on and I think command post minutes 3 will indicate there's another briefing taking place, but 4 not in the trailer. 5 Q: Okay, good. That's -- thank you for 6 that clarification. And continuing at Tab 21, the -- the 7 typewritten notes -- and this is Exhibit P-426, Document 8 1002419; that's 1002419, which is page 62 of the 9 typewritten command post notes. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Do you have that? 14 A: Oh yes. 15 Q: And that shows an entry for the time 16 of 14:27 hours or 2:27; is that right? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And it shows a briefing, and Mark 19 Wright leading meeting; right? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And am I correct in believing that 22 this is a briefing of your command team? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And Mark Wright is leading the 25 meeting because you're in a meeting with -- with Chief
911 Coles and Superintendent Parkin? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And on the phone with Inspector Ron 4 Fox during that? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And the meeting with Mark wright is 7 happening -- can you just clarify for me, in the command 8 post while you're in the trailer, or... 9 A: The command post is the trailer. 10 Q: Okay, I -- sorry. Can you describe-- 11 A: I -- 12 Q: -- physically how the two (2) 13 meetings were happening at the time? 14 A: I can't tell you a 100 percent sure. 15 I suspect Mark Wright can be more specific, but it was 16 either in the parking lot just outside of the command 17 post or in the Detachment two (2) bay garage. 18 But they had -- they were waiting for me 19 and they'd huddled together and -- and got their meeting 20 going because they needed to have a discussion. 21 Q: All right. So while you were in your 22 meeting with Chief Coles and on the phone with Inspector 23 Fox, Mark Wright is leading a briefing meeting, is that 24 right? 25 A: Right.
921 Q: And I note in the third paragraph, 2 Stan Korosec says: 3 "Things aren't too bad today". 4 Right? 5 A: Sure. 6 Q: Apparently? 7 A: Yeah, that's what it says. 8 Q: And then down at the bottom of the 9 page, there's discussion about the injunction; is that 10 right? 11 It says, in the second last paragraph: 12 "Ed Vervoort, Les Kobayashi is waiting 13 for a copy of the new wording of the 14 Affidavit. He will be signing it." 15 Right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And that's about the injunction 18 application, right? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And then Mark Wright says: 21 "There will be a leg time." 22 I thin that should be "lag time"; correct? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: So it says, 25 "MARK WRIGHT: There will be a lag time
931 second party has to have an opportunity 2 to attend. Ed Vervoort feels probably 3 will be Friday." 4 Right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And -- and they're talking about the 7 injunction; right? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And would you agree with me that when 10 Mark Wright says, 11 "There will be a lag time. Second 12 party has to have an opportunity to 13 attend." 14 He is talking about an injunction that is 15 not an ex parte injunction, because an ex parte 16 injunction is one that's made without notice to the other 17 party; is that right? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: So Mark Wright, at this point appears 20 to be saying that the injunction will be not an emergency 21 injunction, but an injunction on notice to the other 22 party; right? 23 A: I don't know that. 24 Q: Well -- 25 A: I mean, I'm not so sure I would be so
941 confident to say that either my own or Mark Wright's 2 understanding of these processes would clearly be that 3 definitive. 4 Obviously, he's indicating that some 5 notice has to be served, and there's some concurrence it 6 may be Friday before it happens. 7 So I'm just -- I guess, just when you use 8 the term "ex parte" or not, I'm not sure the context 9 would be necessarily accurate, that's all. 10 Q: All right, but what he does say is 11 that there will be a lag time and he appears to say the 12 reason for the lag time is because the second party has 13 to have an opportunity to attend; right? 14 A: Right, that's what he says, yes. 15 Q: And is it fair to say that that means 16 the second party -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me -- 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 20 Mr. Downard has an objection. 21 OBJ MR. PETER DOWNARD: The Witness obviously 22 isn't an expert int eh rules of civil procedure, but it's 23 well known that if an ex parte injunction is granted, it 24 is always on the basis that it has to be renewed in a 25 very short period of time, after the ex parte injunction
951 is granted. 2 And so, in that situation, as a matter of 3 standard civil procedure, there is a lag time between the 4 initial granting of the injunction and then a -- a 5 hearing at which the -- the party enjoined maybe -- may 6 make submissions and has had notice of the order having 7 been made. 8 So, My -- My Friend hasn't really put -- 9 fairly putting the -- the injunction legal context in 10 this situation. 11 It's simply a qualification to ensure that 12 -- My Friend's suggestion is only one (1) interpretation 13 and there is more, obviously. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. Carry on, Mr. Klippenstein. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 18 Q: I don't think I was doing what My 19 Friend feels I was doing, and trying to understand what's 20 here. 21 Now at this time, obviously this is 2:27 22 in the afternoon, or thereabouts, right? And Mr. Wright 23 is apparently stating that the second party has to have 24 an opportunity to attend, right? 25 A: That's what he said, yes.
961 Q: That's what it says. 2 A: Hmm hmm. I agree with that. 3 Q: When he's talking about a lag time, 4 do you have any understanding of what he was conveying? 5 A: I wasn't a party to his discussion. 6 As you know, I was in the command post -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- with Coles and Parkin. So I mean 9 I can't tell you with any definitive accuracy. 10 Q: All right. Now during the meeting 11 you were holding -- let me just take a step back. So 12 we're having two (2) meetings happening here at the same 13 time, right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: One (1) in the command post with you 16 and Chief Coles and Superintendent Parkin and the phone 17 call to Inspector Fox, right? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And at the same time we're having a 20 meeting outside that -- outside the command post being 21 led by Mark Wright consisting of the command team at 22 which Mark Wright is talking about the second party of an 23 injunction having the opportunity to attend, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Now during that conversation you had
971 with Inspector Fox, Inspector Fox starts out by talking 2 about an ex parte injunction, right? 3 A: Yes, he does. 4 Q: So -- and then the rest of your 5 discussion with Inspector Fox involves an ex parte 6 injunction -- in other words one that doesn't have to be 7 served, right? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: I'm just quoting the transcript 10 there. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: Just for clarification, Inspector Fox 13 says: 14 "They are making moves towards getting 15 an ex parte injunction, in other words, 16 one that doesn't haven't to be served." 17 That's what Inspector Fox says to you, 18 right? 19 A: That's what he said, yes. 20 Q: Yes. And then you proceed to discuss 21 that injunction with him during that phone call, right? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Meanwhile in the other meeting it 24 would appear from the notes, that Mark Wright and Ed 25 Vervoort and presumably others are discussing an
981 injunction which Vervoort says will probably be on 2 Friday, right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And Mark Wright is saying the second 5 party that there will be a lag time because the second 6 party has to have an opportunity to attend, right? 7 A: That's what he said, yes. 8 Q: Then at -- on the next page, which is 9 page 63, Inspector -- excuse me, the notes have an entry 10 for 14:47 which is 2:47 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it says: 13 "Inspector Carson advised that Tim 14 McCabe, Crown law office, called him 15 inquiring about his availability to 16 give evidence tomorrow in Sarnia court, 17 subject to approval of bosses or 18 whether someone else can go." 19 Is that right? 20 A: That's -- that's accurate, yes. 21 Q: Okay. And then -- do you recall -- 22 well let me get to the -- the issue of when you spoke 23 with Detective Sergeant Wright about the injunction a 24 little later. 25 So when -- during the meeting of -- that
991 Mark Wright was leading outside the command post, 2 obviously they were not aware of the discussion you were 3 having with Inspector Fox, right? 4 A: Sure, that's fair. 5 Q: And do you know if you came out of 6 the meeting with Chief Coles and addressed the other 7 meeting? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Quite frankly, I doubt it. 12 Q: All right. And then, at Tab 22, 13 which is transcript Exhibit 444B, Tab 39 and tape -- 14 Exhibit 428 region number 36, I believe, we have a 15 transcript of a phone call between yourself and Tim 16 McCabe; is that right? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: And, that's on September 6 at 14:36, 19 which is about 2:36; right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And so, Mr. McCabe is phoning you 22 shortly after you spoke with Inspector Fox, is that 23 right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And during your conversation with
1001 Inspector Fox, Inspector Fox said he would talk to Mr. 2 McCabe after the call; is that right? 3 A: Yes. The call was to intro McCabe so 4 that I would take his phone call, technically. 5 Q: Right. And then, when Mr. McCabe 6 called you -- called the command post, I guess, at 2:36, 7 were you still in the meeting with Chief Coles and 8 Superintendent Parkin, do you -- do you recall? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: It's not particularly important, from 13 my point of view. I don't mean to cause difficulty. 14 A: Well, just -- I don't know if I have 15 any indication of -- at 15:02 I'm still meeting with 16 Coles... 17 Q: I see. So, that suggests that the... 18 A: Well, the note at 15:02 says: 19 "Inspector Carson in meeting with Chief 20 Coles and Superintendent Parkin." 21 At 15:02. 22 Q: So, that suggest that the call that 23 we have before us, which is -- commenced at 14:36 and the 24 call from -- which is the call from McCabe, came also 25 during your meeting with Coles and Parkin, right?
1011 A: That would appear to be accurate. 2 Q: Okay. And during that call, Mr. 3 McCabe is basically calling to see whether you would be - 4 - apparently calling to see whether you can confirm that 5 you or someone else can testify in court in support of 6 the government's injunction application; is that right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And during that call, Mr. McCabe -- 9 and I'm looking now at page 271 of the transcript; Mr. 10 McCabe, in the middle, says, quote: 11 "But we'll be seeking this ex parte as 12 I say, which means without notice, and 13 in those circumstances it's -- it's 14 important to be able to show some kind 15 of urgency." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. Oh, yes. 18 Q: So, he's conveying a couple of 19 things, one (1) of which is, it's an ex parte motion that 20 he intends and that that means it's without notice, 21 correct? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: And he says, "In those circumstances 24 it's important to be able to show some kind of urgency," 25 right?
1021 A: That's what he said, yes. 2 Q: And as we saw later -- later on in 3 the call, he repeats the -- and this at the top of page 4 274, he again refers to urgency when he says: 5 "If the Judge puts it to you that you, 6 as a professional police officer, do 7 you think this injunction should be 8 granted on this urgent basis, you know 9 what's your answer to that." 10 And that's what he asks you, right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: So, Mr. McCabe has, several times in 13 this conversation, identified urgency as an important 14 factor in the application that they intend without 15 notice, right? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And then, at Tab 23, we have a 18 transcript of the call that was reviewed between yourself 19 and Jim Hutchinson and that's -- the transcript is 20 Exhibit 444B, Tab 42. 21 And the corresponding tape is Exhibit 428, 22 region 37. 23 And on the first page of that con -- that 24 transcript, you say to Mr. Hutchinson: 25 "Well, we've had some alligators."
1031 And he says: 2 "Oh, is that right?" 3 And you laugh and he says: 4 "Friendly ones, or ones on the 5 outside?" 6 And you say: 7 "Oh, well, we just -- just some 8 political pressures, if you would." 9 Now My Friend, Mr Millar asked you a 10 little bit about that, but I want to ask you some -- some 11 further detailed questions. 12 Would you agree with me that when you were 13 referring to political pressures, you were including some 14 of the references that you'd already raised earlier on 15 September 5th, the day before, in the briefing at the end 16 of the day? 17 Because, in that briefing, you'd also 18 apparently talked about lots of political pressure; is 19 that right? 20 A: Well, you have two (2) questions 21 there. 22 Q: All right, let me -- sorry about 23 that. The previous day, on September 5th, you had a 24 briefing at about 6:00 -- 6:07 or 6:15 p.m. at which 25 you'd also apparently talked about lots of political
1041 pressure; right? 2 A: I commented on it, yes. 3 Q: Yes. And as we discussed, included 4 in what you were referring to, was the reference from 5 Inspector Fox to Premier Harris having a bottom line of 6 wanting them out; right? 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: And so when -- the next day at about 9 15:41 in the afternoon, which is about 3:41 or close to 10 four o'clock, you said on the phone to -- to Officer 11 Hutchinson that we just -- some political pressures, if 12 you would. 13 This is similar to what you'd referred to 14 the day before; right? 15 A: Well, quite frankly, I can't remember 16 the context of how I was thinking about it at the time. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: So, you know, I can't just out and 19 out agree that, yes or no -- 20 Q: All right, just let me rephrase that. 21 A: Obviously -- well, I can put the 22 context to what was happening at the time -- 23 Q: All right, if you wish. 24 A: Obviously, I'd had the discussion 25 with Fox not very long before, and there was also
1051 discussion with McCabe and the whole issue of injunction, 2 no injunction and the issue with MNR and the information 3 that they were providing. And so there was a whole 4 slough of issues swirling there, whether there was going 5 to be an ex parte order or not an ex parte order, whether 6 I'd give evidence or don't give evidence. 7 So, in my view, there's a whole bunch of 8 political issues floating around. And I guess, you know, 9 from a field inspector, all this stuff in the ministry, I 10 would classify as political issues, as well as, you know, 11 what you might call political as in the larger 'P' 12 politics. 13 Q: I see. When you mentioned the items 14 you had in mind when you talked about political pressures 15 with Officer Hutchinson, you mentioned the call from Fox. 16 That would include the -- the call from Fox youÆd 17 completed, what -- less than two (2) hours before on the 18 same day; is that fair? 19 A: Oh, sure. It was a topic of 20 discussion with the chief when he was there so. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: You know, it was obviously fairly 23 fresh in my mind. 24 Q: Right. And when you mentioned, as 25 you did a minute ago, that the call from Mr. McCabe was
1061 in your mind as well, were you meaning that you felt any 2 pressure from McCabe or from the circumstances when you 3 were being asked to testify that there was urgency or 4 that there -- that an injunction was required, or -- or 5 were you not including that? 6 A: Oh, I certainly didn't feel under any 7 pressure from Mr. McCabe. I, quite frankly, I -- I found 8 him a very -- he knew a lot more about injunctions than I 9 did, so it was a learning process for me. So -- and it 10 was matter of me sharing with him what I knew and if that 11 would help get the injunction. And if it did, I mean 12 that was a bonus to me. 13 Q: And you raised -- it was you who 14 raised the -- the name of Mr. McCabe, not me, when I was 15 asking about explanation of political pressure. But it 16 sounds like you didn't feel pressured by Mr. McCabe? 17 A: Oh no, of course not. 18 Q: Did you feel that Mr. McCabe was 19 conveying pressure from anybody else? 20 A: I didn't get that sense. 21 Q: Okay. And when you were referring to 22 political pressure in this call with Officer Hutchinson, 23 is it fair to say not only did you have in mind the Fox 24 call of a couple of hours ago, that that was in the same 25 class.
1071 And you also had in mind the Fox call from 2 the day before; is that fair? 3 A: Given how busy I was, I would suggest 4 that the call from the day before was some time in the 5 past and it was not really in the forefront of my 6 thinking, at that point in time. 7 Q: All right. Now in the call from Ron 8 Fox at approximately two (2) hours or a little less than 9 two (2) hours before you spoke with Mr. McCabe, Mr. Fox 10 makes some comments about the Premier and so forth. 11 A: Yes, he did. 12 Q: However, after you spoke with -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe My Friend 14 misspoke the -- the Fox call was at two o'clock and the 15 McCabe call was at 2:30. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 18 Q: Thank you. I think it's the -- sorry 19 it's the twenty-four (24) hour clock that through me off. 20 Thank you. 21 So in fact when you -- I misspoke -- I 22 confused -- I spoke the wrong name when I'd identified 23 those calls. 24 When you had spoken with Inspector Fox at 25 around two o'clock on September 6th, after you'd spoken
1081 with him you handed the phone over to Chief Coles; right? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And Chief Coles then had a discussion 4 with Fox that included a discussion of -- of comments by 5 the premier; right? Which you now know or presume or 6 conclude only from the -- or partly because of the 7 transcripts which we've -- tape we've now heard; right? 8 A: Yeah. On -- on that particular day I 9 -- I did not hear what was going on on the other side of 10 what Fox was providing him. 11 Q: Right. Did Chief Coles, to your 12 recollection, make any comments to you -- well, let me 13 rephrase that. 14 I would suspect given the -- what I think 15 probably is a rather unusual discussion that Inspector 16 Fox and Chief Coles had, just after you'd had your 17 discussion, that Chief Coles might well have said 18 something to you about what Inspector Fox had said and 19 about the whole nature of the call. 20 Do you recall if there was any discussion 21 between you and Coles about the call with Fox shortly 22 after the call ended? 23 A: What I recall is Coles ended his 24 phone call, left the command trailer and I believe he 25 went into the Detachment and continued another phone
1091 call. And at that time Superintendent Parkin and I were 2 in the command trailer. 3 I had a number of things on the go or that 4 needed to be addressed. And -- and clearly the command 5 team had had a briefing and I needed to get back up to 6 speed in what was taking place at that point in time. 7 I know Coles came back for a very short 8 period but they -- they left shortly thereafter. And, 9 quite frankly, I don't -- I don't believe I have any note 10 of any discussion about what took place when he returned 11 from concluding his other phone call. 12 Q: All right. So you don't have any 13 recollection of any discussion between you and Chief 14 Coles about the content of the Fox call after he hung up? 15 A: No. I -- I don't recall anything. 16 Q: All right. And then after -- sorry. 17 At Tab 24 of the Volume II binder I've provided, which is 18 at -- which is a transcript of a call between yourself 19 and Mr. McCabe at September 6th, 16:06 or 4:06 in the 20 afternoon. And the transcript is Exhibit 444B, Tab 45 21 and the tape is Exhibit 428 region 40. 22 Do you have that? 23 A: I'm sorry, we're at Tab 20 -- 24 Q: 24. 25 A: û- 4?
1101 Q: -- in the binder I've provided to 2 you. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Yes. And do you see that transcript 5 that's Mr. McCabe and yourself at -- 6 A: 4:04. 7 Q: 4:06 or -- 8 A: Yes, I'm sorry, 4:06. You're right. 9 Q: On the afternoon of September 6th? 10 A: Yeah, I'm sorry. 11 Q: So you spoke with Mr. McCabe, just to 12 put this in context, at about 2:36, about the injunction. 13 And then at about 4:06 you're calling him back or he's 14 calling you back? I gather there was an exchange of 15 messages or something. Anyway -- 16 A: Yeah, I believe I left him a voice 17 message -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- and he returned my call -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: -- based on who was going to attend 22 the next morning. 23 Q: Right. And so at about 4:06 you were 24 advising Mr. McCabe. You say: 25 "I just called back, I just want to
1111 confirm Detective Sergeant Mark Wright 2 will be our representative tomorrow 3 morning." 4 Is that fair? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I -- I take it that by this time, 7 and I think that Detective Sergeant Mark Wright's notes 8 make it clear that you had spoken with Detective Sergeant 9 Wright and advised him that he would be representing the 10 OPP at the injunction the next day; is that right? 11 A: I think it's fair, yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And do you recall when you 13 spoke with Detective Sergeant Wright some time before 14 4:06 on September 6th, whether you described to him at 15 that point whether the injunction was going to be ex 16 parte without notice, as you had now been informed? 17 A: I'm sorry, could you repeat the 18 question? 19 Q: Do you recall when you spoke with Mr. 20 Wright, before you called McCabe back, do you recall if 21 you'd advised Mark Wright not only that he was going to 22 be testifying, but that it was going to be an ex parte 23 injunction? 24 A: I would assume I probably did, but I 25 -- that's -- that's an assumption on my part at best.
1121 Q: Right. 2 A: But I -- I would say that only from 3 the perspective that, in my handwritten note on a steno 4 pad, I'd indicated ex parte injunction tomorrow, Sarnia, 5 09:00. And I suspect I would have referred to that when 6 I informed Sergeant Wright that he would be going to 7 Sarnia tomorrow morning. 8 Q: All right. And do you know if 9 Inspector or Detective Sergeant Wright, at that point, 10 understood that ex parte injunction would be without 11 notice? 12 Do you recall whether you had -- you know, 13 whether you discussed that with him at all? 14 A: I -- I -- I can't be sure with any 15 certainty whatsoever. 16 Q: All right. And then, the next event 17 I'd like to draw your attention to is at Tab 25 and this 18 is a transcript, or rather a series of handwritten notes, 19 Exhibit P-427 1000152. It's the handwritten scribe 20 notes. Do you have that? 21 A: Yes. Oh, yes. 22 Q: And it appears there's a time 23 indicator on the left of 18:42, which is... 24 A: 6:42 p.m. 25 Q: I believe that should be -- yeah,
1131 6:42 p.m.; is that right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And, the entry says: 4 "DL, JC, Marcel Beaubien." 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Am I right in understanding there was 7 a meeting in the -- or, at least -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- a get-together in the command post 10 of Dale Linton, yourself, and Marcel Beaubien? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And the notes say, quote: 13 "Made fax, sent to Premier five (5) 14 minutes after [and then there's an 15 unintelligible word from my point of 16 view] called and stated they will be on 17 it." 18 Is that right? 19 A: That's what it appears, yes. 20 Q: My Friend has just suggested that the 21 word that I couldn't quite make out was, "per" for 22 person. Do you think that's a possibility? That would 23 fit the context, certainly, right? 24 A: It's possible. 25 Q: In other words, so it says:
1141 "Five (5) minutes after person called 2 and stated they will be on it." 3 Is that right? 4 A: That makes sense. 5 Q: Yeah. And then continuing on 6 several pages on the handwritten notes at page 472, 7 there's a -- an attributed note to an "MB" which is 8 Marcel Beaubien, I take it? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Is that right? 13 A: Sure. 14 Q: And he apparently says, quote: 15 "Premier is in constant touch; good 16 communications." End quote. 17 Is that right? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: And do you recall that meeting with 20 Marcel Beaubien and Dale Linton? 21 A: I -- I recall that he was there, yes. 22 Q: And do you recall where that meeting 23 took place, in what structure? 24 A: I believe it was in the command 25 trailer.
1151 Q: And do you recall Marcel Beaubien 2 making a fax as it suggests in these notes? 3 A: Suggested making a fax? 4 Q: It appears to say, "made fax." Do 5 you know anything about that? 6 A: He had sent a fax as I understand it. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: He made no fax in -- in any presence 9 -- in any -- at any time in our presence. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Actually, there was no fax delivered 12 or sent from our location. 13 Q: All right. I'm just trying to 14 understand these comments that say, quote: 15 "Made fax; sent to premier." 16 Close quote. And -- 17 A: I -- I got -- my assumption of that 18 is that's something that had already occurred and he was 19 just articulating. 20 Q: I see. Did he step out, to your 21 recollection, out of the command post and make a fax 22 somewhere else around about that time, to your knowledge? 23 A: I don't believe that occurred. 24 Q: Okay. And if I look at these notes, 25 does -- this suggests that Marcel Beaubien was conveying
1161 to you that he had sent a fax to the Premier and five (5) 2 minutes after that someone called back and stated, They 3 will be on it? 4 A: That -- that's my interpretation. 5 Q: And Marcel Beaubien appears to be 6 telling you that he, Marcel, sent something to the 7 Premier and very shortly thereafter someone from the 8 Premier's office called Mr. Beaubien back and stated they 9 will be on it; is that right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And is it fair for me to infer that 12 Mr. Beaubien was conveying to you that Mr. Beaubien was 13 in contact with the Premier or Premier's office and was 14 getting material back from them in fairly short 15 turnaround time? 16 A: Well, he was obviously in 17 communication with them. 18 Q: Right. And, in fact, in a little 19 more detail, what this appears to be suggesting, tell me 20 if this is a fair interpretation of -- of this, that -- 21 is that Mr. Beaubien is conveying to you that Mr. 22 Beaubien sent a fax to the Premier or the Premier's 23 office. 24 And very shortly thereafter someone 25 returned a call to Mr. Beaubien from the Premier's office
1171 and stated that they will be on it. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And then the subsequent comment that 8 I read to you in which -- on page 472 which says: 9 "The Premier is in constant touch, good 10 communications." 11 Does that -- is it fair for me to infer, 12 and this is at page 472; do you have that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: That, in line with what we've just 15 looked at, Mr. Beaubien appears to be conveying to you 16 that Mr. Beaubien is in constant touch with the Premier 17 or the Premier's office and that there is good 18 communication between them; is that fair? 19 A: Sure. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And so Mr. Beaubien was in your 24 command post with your night incident commander, Dale 25 Linton, communicating to you that Mr. Beaubien was in
1181 constant touch with the Premier or the Premier's office, 2 and that he had good communications with the Premier's 3 office; is that fair? 4 A: Sure. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's just 9 twelve o'clock now, Mr. Klippenstein, but if you're going 10 on to another point, this might be a good point to take a 11 lunch break. 12 If you're still continuing -- 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN That would be -- 14 that would -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would that-- 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN -- very well 17 suited to where I'm at now. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see, 19 that's fine. I think we'll take a lunch break now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 21 adjourned until 1:15. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:59 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 1:27 p.m. 25
1191 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed, please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: WeÆre back 9 on the record now and Mr. Klippenstein is still examining 10 Deputy Commissioner Carson. 11 Thank you all very much. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 14 Q: Deputy -- thank you, Commissioner. 15 Deputy Commissioner Carson, I just want to pick up on 16 some of the somewhat lengthy and detailed cross- 17 examination of this morning, which was pertaining to 18 instances of connection between political or governmental 19 persons or agencies and the police operations as 20 identified in the documents and tapes. 21 I just want to go back and highlight a 22 couple of those and see if you agree with me. I want to 23 go through several instances in which Mark Wright, for 24 example, was present during some of those discussions. 25 And I gather when we reviewed the
1201 documents, the command post briefing handwritten notes, 2 with respect to September 5th, 9:24 in the morning, in 3 the binder in Volume 2 I've provided to you at Tab 4, I 4 think you agreed with me that Mark Wright was present 5 when there was discussion about Marcel Beaubien, saying 6 he was updating the Premier; is that right? 7 A: I have to get to the passage you're 8 referring to. 9 Q: Yes, that's at Tab 4. 10 A: What -- what page are we referring 11 to, sir? 12 Q: The page is 401 at Tab 4, is the 13 reference to the comment. We looked at that earlier. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: That's the 9:25 briefing? 18 Q: That's right. 19 A: Mark Wright is at that meeting. 20 Q: Right. So he would have, presumably, 21 heard the -- the briefing comment about Marcel Beaubien 22 speaking about updating the Premier; correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And then that afternoon, we -- and we 25 reviewed several times the phone call that you had with
1211 Inspector Fox and that... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Sorry, I temporarily lost that... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: That was at -- that's at Tab 7 in 10 that binder, and that was September 5th at 14:47 or 2:47; 11 is that right? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Now, obviously, Detective Sergeant 14 Wright was not a participant in that phone call. 15 However, given everything you've said about your working 16 relationship with him, is it fair for me to infer that 17 you probably discussed with Mark Wright, after that phone 18 call, some time after that phone call, something about 19 the comments in it, and particularly that there had been 20 a reference to the Premier during that phone call? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I'm -- I'm looking at Tab 7 of the 25 binder, Volume II.
1221 A: Well, I'm certainly familiar with 2 the -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- phone call you're talking about. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: What I'm trying to determine if 7 there's a -- a briefing after that where I reflected on 8 that and if Mark Wright was, in fact, present, because I 9 û- off by memory I don't know. 10 Q: There -- there was a briefing as I 11 understand it, and I'll get to that next, at 15:07 which 12 was 3:07. 13 But I guess my question before I get to 14 that briefing meeting, which I will, whether you know, 15 whether you in fact did speak with Mark Wright about 16 that, or whether you can infer whether or not you did 17 speak with Mark Wright about that phone call after the 18 phone call, and before the briefing at 3:07? 19 A: I can't, with any certainty at all. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I don't know if I had a one-on-one 22 discussion with him, quite frankly. 23 Q: Is it possible that you did, before 24 the briefing at 15:07? 25 A: Without reviewing the -- the notes of
1231 that time period, I -- I would -- I just don't know. 2 Q: Okay. The next event I'd like to ask 3 about is the -- on the 5th again, the briefing at 15:07 4 or 3:07 that was found at Tab 8. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And that's where the handwritten 9 notes include a reference, apparently, to a comment from 10 you: 11 "Premier is, no different treatment 12 from anybody else." 13 And Mark Wright attended that meeting, I 14 believe, from you -- from the previous page, you can see 15 it. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: So he would have, presumably, heard 21 that comment by you about the Premier's, "no different 22 treatment from anybody else," if he hadn't already 23 discussed that with you? 24 A: Just -- which briefing are you -- 25 you're speaking of the 15:07 meeting?
1241 Q: Yes. 2 A: It's Wright, was at that meeting. 3 Q: Yes. And then there was the briefing 4 at 18:15 or 6:15 in the evening on September 5th which we 5 reviewed, that's Tab 14. 6 And that's where at least Mr. Vervoort's 7 notes referred to "lots of political pressure, strong in- 8 house comments by Premier/Solicitor General; right? 9 A: That's the meeting, yes. 10 Q: And Mark Wright attended that 11 meeting, as well? 12 A: Yes, he did. 13 Q: And presumably would have heard 14 whatever you said about that and whatever discussion 15 there was; is that right? 16 A: That's fair. 17 Q: And then on the next day on the 6th 18 you had the phone conversation with Inspector Fox at 19 about two o'clock, which included a discussion with -- or 20 about the Premier; is that right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And do you know whether you discussed 23 that phone call with Mr. Wright after it had happened 24 that afternoon? 25 A: I -- I really couldn't tell you if I
1251 did or did not. 2 Q: Do you know if you had any exchange 3 and -- well, IÆll -- I'll -- 4 A: My -- my only thought on that is, I 5 know that was around the time of day, if I'm not 6 mistaken, at some point Mark Wright went down with 7 Sergeant Eve to the Park. 8 I'm not sure if he was at the command post 9 at that time period. I think he had -- I'm trying to 10 think when he had left. 11 Q: He was at the command post, as we've 12 seen, during your phone call with Fox, or thereabouts, 13 because he was brief -- leading the other meeting that 14 was going on. 15 A: That -û that's right. 16 Q: But at some time after that he left. 17 A: Right and I don't know if there was 18 an opportunity to have any significant discussion about 19 what had taken place earlier or not. 20 Q: All right. So those are a number of 21 occasions when Mark Wright, on September 5th, would have 22 heard discussions about the Premier and his views or 23 involvement in the Ipperwash issue; is that right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Now after your phone call with
1261 Inspector Fox, at some point during that discussion, the 2 issue was whether you would testify. 3 Eventually the outcome, that afternoon, 4 was you asked Mr. Wright to testify instead of you; is 5 that right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And if we look at Mr. Wright's notes 8 which we looked at earlier, and they're in Volume I of 9 the materials we prepared, if you have that available to 10 you. And those notes were Exhibit P-471, Document 11 1000886. That's 1000886. 12 A: Which tab, sir? 13 Q: Do you have those? 14 A: Which tab are you referring to, 15 please? 16 Q: At Tab 10. And on the first page of 17 those handwritten notes of Mr. Wright, about halfway 18 down, we see an entry for 14:47 hours; right? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: That's at 2:47 and it says: 21 "Advised I would be attending the court 22 tomorrow, possibly in Sarnia, to give 23 evidence in the injunction 24 proceedings." 25 Right?
1271 A: Correct. 2 Q: Now there -- I'm not sure, frankly, 3 about some co-ordination or overlap here because the 4 scribe notes, I believe, say something slightly 5 different. If you look at Volume II of the binder that 6 we just -- that we provided to you, it's Volume II Tab 7 21... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you have that in front of you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: The scribe notes, and this is Exhibit 14 P-426, Document 1002419, at the entry for 14:47, which is 15 the same time we looked in Mr. McCabe's notes, it says, 16 quote: 17 "Inspector Carson advised that Tim 18 McCabe, Crown Law Office, called him 19 inquiring about his availability to 20 give evidence tomorrow in Sarnia court, 21 subject to approval of bosses, or 22 whether someone else can go." 23 So, there's no mention for the entry at 24 that time about Mr. -- about Mr. Wright being advised 25 that he'd be testifying, but there may be one (1) other
1281 entry to -- to solve that question. 2 A: Where is that reference? 3 Q: That's in -- that's at Tab 21 at 4 14:47 hours. 5 A: Oh, fourteen (14) -- oh, I'm sorry. 6 Q: I'm sorry. I'm not sure about this, 7 but -- but this may clarify it. At the scribe notes at 8 16:44 and that's Exhibit P-426, Inquiry Document 1002419 9 and those are not in one (1) of your bind -- this page is 10 not in one (1) of your binders. 11 A: Is that the command post minutes 12 you're referring to? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: What -- what's the page number? I -- 15 I have -- 16 Q: 66. 17 A: û- I have the originals here. 18 Q: At page 66 there's an entry for 16:44 19 hours, which is 4:44. Do you see that? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And the third paragraph says: 22 "John Carson advised Mark Wright that 23 he will be our representative in Court 24 tomorrow. John Carson to discuss 25 details with Mark Wright."
1291 A: Yes. 2 Q: So that appears to be the occasion or 3 time at which you advised Detective Sergeant Wright that 4 he would be testifying; is that right? 5 A: Well, obviously, we had -- there was 6 some specific discussion in that particular meeting about 7 that point. Now, I don't -- obviously if Mark Wright's 8 made a note of 14:47, I must have -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- shared with him that he was going 11 to be going. I know there was some discussion of whether 12 I would be the appropriate person or not. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: And, as you know, Chief Coles and 15 Parkin were at the command post at that time so -- 16 Q: Right. 17 A: -- my assumption would be that we had 18 a quick discussion about who -- who should or shouldn't 19 go, and I probably -- I --I must have shared some 20 something -- some detail of that with Mark Wright. 21 Q: Okay. Well, whatever it is, it's 22 either 14:47 that afternoon or 16:44 that afternoon or 23 both. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: You advised Mark Wright that he would
1301 be testifying at the injunction hearing the next morning. 2 A: Yeah. And certainly the 16:44 entry 3 brings clarity to it. 4 Q: Right. And -- and I note there's a 5 couple of other references in the scribe notes that talk 6 about Mark Wright testifying, but they appear, to me, to 7 be you advising the group when Mr. Wright isn't there; is 8 that possible? 9 A: That's fair, that's fair. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: So at -- at least by 16:44 or 2:44 13 you were speaking with Mr. Wright about him taking over 14 the testimony for the injunction the next day? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And since it was the next day that he 17 was going to go rather than Friday, as had been discussed 18 a couple of hours before in the briefing, that meeting 19 that he just shared, you must have discussed with him 20 that it was going to happen tomorrow morning? Sorry, let 21 me rephrase that, that's unclear. 22 Is it fair to infer, from the scribe 23 minutes of the meeting that Mark Wright was leading, at 24 or near the command post, around 2:00 or three o'clock 25 where Mr. Vervoort said it was probably Friday that the
1311 injunction would be. 2 It -- it would appear that Mr. Wright, at 3 that time, would have expected probably Friday for a 4 Court date; right? Even though he wasn't going to 5 testify, but. 6 A: Well, obviously that was information 7 that was shared by Vervoort. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: Right. But, like, I wasn't part of 10 that discussion. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: And I don't think anything turns on 14 it, but -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- based on that, it would probably 17 have been in Mr. Wright's mind that he'd be -- not that 18 he would be testifying, but that the injunction would be 19 on Friday? 20 A: I guess. I guess you could draw that 21 conclusion. I -- I suppose that -- 22 Q: Not a big deal. Anyway, the only 23 reason I mention is that things had changed by the time 24 you spoke with him, because it was now appearing that the 25 injunction would be the next morning, on the 6th?
1321 A: Well, I don't think -- 2 Q: On the 7th, IÆm sorry. 3 A: -- any of this is really a û- a 4 surprise. Like, this whole process is not within our 5 control at all and, obviously, there's conflicting 6 information coming from the MNR and from the Sol. Gen 7 side through Ron Fox. 8 So, you know, the fact is can be tomorrow 9 morning versus, you know, some information could be 10 Friday morning. 11 You know, this -- this is a confirming 12 detail and it is simple as this; Sergeant Wright, you're 13 there tomorrow morning, pure and simple. So -- 14 Q: Right. 15 A: û- you know, whatever conflicting 16 information Vervoort may have put forward earlier, I'm 17 not sure -- to me it's û- itÆs a non-issue. 18 Q: Yeah, I'm not saying it was 19 conflicting information, it appears to me to have been 20 changing information, because there were the two (2) 21 meetings happening -- 22 A: Well, this is the whole problem with 23 information coming out of two (2) different ministries 24 and -- and this is -- this is an issue of the accurate -- 25 accuracy of information.
1331 Q: At any rate, when you spoke with 2 Inspector Fox, he advised you that it would -- they were 3 looking for an ex parte, non -- not to be served an 4 emergency injunction; is that right? 5 A: That's what he told me, right. 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: I believe in that phone call he said 9 it would either be that night or the next morning; right? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Right. And then I believe it was 12 your conversation with -- well, I don't know exactly when 13 it was off the top of my head, but shortly after the Fox 14 conversation, you received confirmation that it would, in 15 fact, be on the morning of the 7th? 16 A: I believe within the hour. 17 Q: Yeah. And then at some point 18 thereabouts you decided that it would be Detective 19 Sergeant Wright that would testify rather than you, or 20 was it a decision that was made with Chief Coles and 21 others, or do you remember? 22 A: I can't remember, but given that 23 Coles and Parkin were in the command post and the issue 24 of whether I should or not be available the next day, I - 25 - I would assume that I would have had some discussion
1341 with the chief to get his concurrence whether he felt I 2 should be available at the command post or not. 3 Q: Okay. So then after that decision 4 was made, it appears at about 16:44 you advised Wright 5 that he would be testifying; right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And that he would be testifying the 8 next morning? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, do you recall or can I infer 11 that you would have given Detective Sergeant Wright some 12 other information about his upcoming testimony? 13 Would you have told him anything at all 14 about it; do you recall? 15 A: Well, I know I wanted to brief him. 16 I think thereÆs some indication I did brief him at some 17 point in time, later on this afternoon. 18 Q: Right. And so at some point that 19 afternoon you think you probably would have discussed 20 something about the -- 21 A: Well, I think there's a reference to 22 -- to that in here somewhere. 23 Q: I know you had scheduled an actual 24 meeting with him to take place that evening at around 25 9:00, I believe.
1351 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. If you refer to the command 4 post minutes 76 to page 77, Mark Wright: 5 "Mark Wright: I spoke to the attorney 6 general lawyers, went over my evidence. 7 John Carson: Okay. But I want to 8 speak to you about this. 9 John Carson and Mark Wright left to 10 speak about same." 11 That occurred at 20:57 hours. 12 Q: I see. And where were you at that 13 point? 14 A: At the command trailer. 15 Q: At the command trailer. And do you 16 remember anything about that occasion? 17 A: About that discussion specific? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Well, I -- just the fact that I'm 20 sure we had that discussion. 21 Q: Now, during your conversation with 22 Inspector Fox that afternoon, he had described to you 23 what it was that the Attorney General wanted to or needed 24 to demonstrate to the Court for purposes of an ex parte 25 injunction.
1361 And we discu -- you and I discussed this 2 to some detail and we went over the comment from 3 Inspector Fox that they wanted to or needed to show that 4 the exigencies of the circumstances were increasing 5 exponentially. 6 Do you remember that reference in the -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you know whether you made any such 9 comment to Detective Sergeant Wright by way of explaining 10 what, in fact, he would be addressing? 11 A: I don't believe I would have. 12 Q: And why do you say that? 13 A: Because the terminology that's used 14 is -- is certainly not terminology I normally would use. 15 What I would have shared with Mark Wright, I would 16 suggest, is the results of the conversation I had with 17 Tim McCabe. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Quite frankly, Ron Fox's conversation 20 is one (1) thing, but Tim McCabe is the lawyer who's 21 going to be leading this next day and -- and that's the 22 individual who requires information. 23 So I certainly believe I would have shared 24 with Mark Wright the expectation, as I understood it, 25 from Mr. McCabe.
1371 Q: All right. Can you enlighten us with 2 anything more of what Mr. McCabe had discussed with you 3 that you probably passed onto Mr. Wright? 4 A: Well, just the information that we 5 discussed, you know, at length this morning about our 6 telephone call. I mean that's -- that's my best guess. 7 To sit here and say I have specific recollection of a 8 discussion with Mark Wright in regards to this particular 9 discussion, quite frankly, I cannot do that, in all 10 fairness. 11 Q: Now would it be fair that you 12 probably would have mentioned to Detective Sergeant 13 Wright the points that Mr. McCabe raised with you a 14 couple of times that since it was an ex parte motion it 15 was necessary to show urgency? 16 A: I would suggest to you that I would 17 have shared with Mark Wright the fact that we need to 18 just put forward the facts as we know them at that point 19 in time; to make sure that he had all the facts and all 20 the -- understood all the circumstances that occurred to 21 date so they could be put forward in a fair manner. 22 Q: All right. So do you think you 23 probably did not mention, to Detective Sergeant Wright, 24 the factor of urgency that Mr. McCabe had mentioned to 25 you a couple of times?
1381 A: I -- I can't sit here and say I did 2 or I didn't. 3 Q: Okay. You don't remember one (1) way 4 or the other? 5 A: I don't. 6 Q: All right. And then after your 7 discussion with Mr. Wright at 16:44, which is 4:44 p.m., 8 at some point Mr. Wright left, at your instructions, to 9 go and attempt to find the citizen's meeting in the area 10 of the Park which we had discussed earlier; is that 11 right? 12 A: I believe that's accurate, yes. 13 Q: And... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: After the meeting that Detective 18 Sergeant Wright attended with the citizens at the -- near 19 the TOC centre, we then get into the time when he left 20 the citizen's meeting and travelled towards the Park to 21 the sandy parking lot, and where he encountered some 22 individuals, apparently, on the sandy parking lot; is 23 that right? 24 A: Yeah, that's fair. 25
1391 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'd like to ask you to look at Mr. 4 Wright's handwritten notes, which we looked at earlier 5 just a few minutes ago at Tab 10 in binder 1 that we 6 provided to you, which is Exhibit P-471. 7 And -- do you have that? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: Okay. And if I could ask you to look 10 at page 1062 of those minutes, those are Inquiry Document 11 1000886 -- 1000886 page 4 to 11. And you see where he 12 begins his description of the events at the parking lot? 13 He says: 14 "I then travelled eastbound." 15 Correct? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And he describes the incident there; 18 he talks about eight (8) to ten (10) male Natives 19 standing on the edge of the road. He talks about 20 approximately five (5) -- four (4) to five (5) of these 21 males were holding clubs/sticks/axe/bat handles; right? 22 And he continues and then he leaves. And 23 near the bottom of page 1063 he says: 24 "I went to the checkpoint south of the 25 entrance."
1401 Do you see that? 2 A: I -- I'm trying to read his notes. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I haven't -- I'm trying to decipher 5 what he's writing here. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes, he went to the checkpoint. 10 Q: Okay. You see that? He says, quote: 11 "I went to the checkpoint south of the 12 entrance to the Park and advised the 13 ERT members present of what I had just 14 encountered. I told them to be 15 careful. [That word I don't 16 understand.] It looked like things were 17 escalating [is that right?] -- as it 18 looked that things were escalating." 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Correct? And let me just pause there 21 and let me look at the word, "escalating." And obviously 22 I'll be questioning Detective Sergeant Wright, himself, 23 about that word, but I -- he appears to be suggesting 24 that there's an escalation going on. 25 Now, we've gone over this a number of
1411 times, but, I gather, whatever Detective Sergeant Wright 2 may have seen or -- or -- or based the choice of that 3 word on, in which it probably appears to be the sandy 4 parking lot and the citizens' group thing, you didn't 5 think at that time that things were escalating, because, 6 as you said, things were status quo, Chief Coles said all 7 was calm; is that right? 8 A: I wasn't aware of this. 9 Q: That's -- exactly, you -- you didn't 10 know at this point because you hadn't speaken -- spoken 11 with Detective Sergeant Wright about this at this point; 12 right? 13 A: Right. So, when you say, "status 14 quo," status quo was with no understanding of what this 15 may -- 16 Q: Right. 17 A: -- represent. 18 Q: Right. So Detective Sergeant Wright 19 may have chosen to use the word "escalating" to describe 20 what he had just encountered. 21 But aside from -- let me put it this way: 22 aside from this word "escalating," at this point in time, 23 there isn't any evidence anywhere else that things were 24 escalating? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think that --
1421 I don't think that's a fair question. I think that he 2 can ask him what he knew. There -- there are other calls 3 and radio communications, some of which have been played. 4 But he can ask him what he knew -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: ThatÆs all. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- saying -- that's a 7 fair question. But there's no evidence anywhere, I -- I 8 just don't think that's a fair question. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN That's a badly 11 worded question, I apologize. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 14 Q: But I've gone over this at some 15 length with you, at your -- at this point in time, was 16 approximately the time when you were leaving or had just 17 left your shift; is that right? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And as we discussed -- as -- when you 20 were leaving the shift, to your knowledge, things were 21 status quo and you hadn't -- hadn't prepared for any 22 particular incident because you didn't anticipate it; is 23 that right? 24 A: That's true. 25 Q: Okay. And, obviously, as incident
1431 commander, you had an overall view of all the information 2 of significance coming in, hopefully. 3 So, if there had been something else that 4 caused you to worry about the status quo, you would have 5 taken note of it, but you didn't identify that and so you 6 left your shift feeling comfortable that the status quo 7 was there and going to continue; right? 8 A: That was my desire. 9 Q: That was your desire and -- and your 10 assessment at the time, as we've discussed. And -- isn't 11 that right? 12 A: That's fair. 13 Q: So what we have here when Detective 14 Sergeant Wright writes the word "escalating" as he's just 15 come around the corner, is, and correct me if I'm wrong, 16 the first sign we have in the evidence, as far as you 17 know, of something like escalation; is that fair? 18 A: It's the first activity outside the 19 Park that I'm aware of. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Other than what happened with the 22 picnic tables the night before and the bonfire the night 23 before and during the day shift that day, IÆd like to, 24 you know, make -- make sure we got it straight here that 25 this û- this isn't the first incident that's happened --
1441 Q: Right. 2 A: û- but it's the first thing that's 3 happened in the last -- it's in the daylight hours; it's 4 been pretty calm all day. 5 Q: Right. It's been pretty calm all day 6 and although -- 7 A: All the antics are occurring within 8 the Park itself. 9 Q: Right. And nevertheless, there have 10 been people -- as you said, there's no reason protesters 11 couldn't walk out onto the parking lot and probably did, 12 right; during the day? 13 A: I don't know. I -- I -- there was no 14 -- I'm not sure there was any reports of anybody being 15 out of the Park -- out of the Park at that time, during 16 the day. 17 I don't recall that but. 18 Q: Okay. Anyway, this is the -- this is 19 the first -- well, I've already asked you about that. 20 Now, I presume that Detective Sergeant 21 Wright -- do you know if you had occasion to look at 22 Detective Sergeant Wright's handwritten notes some time 23 after the events of September 6th or 7th? 24 A: His -- his -- his handwritten notes? 25 Q: Yes. The ones we're looking at now?
1451 A: I've never seen them before. 2 Q: All right. Okay. In any case, after 3 Detective Sergeant Wright apparently advises the 4 individuals at the first checkpoint, and now if we can 5 just get a -- a sense of location here. 6 And if I could direct your attention to 7 the map behind you which is a copy of Exhibit P-23, 8 showing the sandy parking lot area at the junction of 9 East Parkway and Army Camp Road. 10 From these notes we -- and from what we 11 discussed before, Mr. Wright would have been travelling 12 east along East Parkway; correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then he describes a discussion 15 with one (1) or more Native protesters around the area of 16 the corner in the sandy parking lot. 17 And then from these notes, it would appear 18 that he travelled south along Army Camp Road to the first 19 checkpoint, is that right? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And it's at that first checkpoint 22 where he describes that things were escalating in -- in 23 his view in his notes, right? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1461 2 A: That appears to be right. 3 Q: All right. And then, he says, quote: 4 "I then moved further south on Military 5 Road to another ERT checkpoint and 6 advised them of the situation." 7 Is that right? It -- that's what it 8 appears to say? 9 A: That's what it says, yes. 10 Q: And then, it says, quote: 11 "While there, I was advised from the 12 first checkpoint that a civilian 13 motorist had attended their checkpoint 14 and reported his vehicle damaged by 15 natives on the road. I instructed 16 Provincial Constable S. Poole, ERT, to 17 take a victim's statement from the 18 male." 19 End of quote. Now, obviously I'll ask 20 Detective Sergeant Wright about this directly. But from 21 what you've seen and heard this is consistent with 22 Detective Sergeant Wright driving up the road, hearing, 23 when he's at the second checkpoint, about the 24 incident involving Gerald George, which was radioed or 25 called to him from the first checkpoint near the Park, is
1471 that right? 2 A: That's what it -- that's what it 3 appears to say, yes. 4 Q: That's what it appears to say. 5 So, it appears what we have here is the -- 6 is that Sergeant -- Detective Sergeant Wright left the 7 civilian meeting, which was about half a kilometre or 8 something like that, give or take, west of the Park on 9 East Parkway, drove east, had an encounter with some 10 First Nations people at the corner near the Park, turned 11 south, went up Army Camp Road, stopped at the first 12 checkpoint, told them that he thought things were 13 escalating, kept driving up to the second checkpoint. 14 At the second checkpoint, while he was -- 15 while was there, he heard from the checkpoint that he 16 just left near the -- nearer the Camp, nearer the Park, 17 that a civilian car had been damaged; is that right? 18 A: It -- it appears to be accurate, yes. 19 Q: Now, and I just go into this in some 20 detail because you recall when you discussed this with 21 Mr. Millar there was a little confusion about the 22 sequence of those -- those events? 23 A: That's fair. 24 Q: Is that right? 25 A: Yeah.
1481 Q: Now -- 2 A: I was certainly of the perception it 3 was in reverse, but -- but this appears to be fairly 4 clear. 5 Q: Okay. And as these notes show, 6 apparently Detective Sergeant Wright instructed Sam Poole 7 to take a statement from the civilian? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And that would appear to be the 10 statement that we reviewed of Gerald George, is that 11 right? 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: Now, then Detective Sergeant Wright 14 says, quote: 15 "I radioed the command post, advised 16 them briefly of the situation and that 17 I was en route to the command post. 18 [And then it says] 19:55 or 7:55 at the 19 command post advised Sergeant Korosec 20 not to stand down Numbers 6 and 3 21 District ERT teams in the event they 22 were needed. 23 Enter command post and brief Inspector 24 Linton. Inspector Carson also advised 25 via 10-21 that TRU had been called in
1491 by command post." 2 Now, "10-21" is a what, do you -- do you 3 know? 4 A: It -- it's a phone call. 5 Q: Okay. And would you agree that this 6 appears to include the -- some of the events we looked at 7 before and discussed before in which Inspector or 8 Detective Sergeant Wright phones ahead or, rather, radios 9 ahead to the command post in Forest? 10 A: Sure. 11 Q: And then when he gets to the command 12 post or, perhaps, in the phone call, I don't know if it's 13 entirely clear, he holds back the two (2) ERT teams? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Correct? Now I've discussed these 16 earlier with you and you agreed with me a number of times 17 that these two (2) events, the encounter by Detective 18 Sergeant Wright at the Park entrance parking lot and the 19 incident of the damaged vehicle were the two (2) key 20 events in the commencement of the escalation of police 21 response that evening; correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And so it's fair to say as Detective 24 Sergeant Wright has written here that at least from his 25 point of view, his approaching or an encounter at the
1501 corner was the beginning of the escalation of the police 2 response? Is that fair? 3 Or rather, let me just say the beginning 4 of escalation. 5 A: I -- I guess I need to understand 6 what -- what you -- what do you mean by escalation? The 7 fact that the ERT teams were held over? 8 Q: Well, let's begin with the word we 9 have here. Detective Sergeant Wright says "things were 10 escalating" and he says that just after he's left that 11 corner after discussing with the First Nations people 12 there. He says things were escalating. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And -- and we're not sure exactly 15 what he had in mind when he says "things." But he used 16 the word "escalation" there. Then -- 17 A: Well, he used the word "escalating" 18 after he describes the encounter as he went around the 19 corner. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: So he's -- he's referring to the 23 encounter at the corner, it would appear? 24 A: That's what it appears, yes. 25 Q: All right. And then the next
1511 significant event, appears chronologically, is the stone 2 throwing incident, damage to the cars; is that right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: He asked for a statement, he radios 5 ahead to the command post, he heads into the command 6 post. The teams have been held back and then there's the 7 call to you at that point and that's the call where 8 Sergeant Wright is, at one (1) point saying "Don't you 9 say we go get those f...ing guys", is that right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And it ends with Sergeant Wright 12 saying to you he's called in TRU, right? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: So that's roughly the sequence of 15 events there? 16 A: That's fair. 17 Q: That's right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now did you eventually have a 22 discussion, I believe you did, with Detective Sergeant 23 Wright about the testimony he would give the next 24 morning? 25 A: Right. I think I spoke to that just
1521 a few minutes ago. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And you had originally scheduled 5 something with him at one (1) of the hotels in Forest 6 around nine o'clock, is that right? 7 A: I think we indicated that we're going 8 to meet at 8:45 at -- 9 Q: 8:45. 10 A: -- the motel. 11 Q: And I guess that didn't happen, did 12 it? 13 A: Well, I never arrived there so, no, 14 in all fairness no. 15 Q: Right. Right. And do you recall 16 anything further about the discussion you eventually did 17 have with Detective Sergeant Wright about your briefing 18 session on the testimony for the injunction the next 19 morning? 20 A: As I indicated earlier, I have no -- 21 no memory specific to that discussion. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1531 Q: Now you mentioned in our discussion 2 yesterday a number of factors which you believe -- you 3 took into account in your decision to -- to deploy forces 4 to the Park and we went through some of them. 5 You mentioned bonfires; is that right? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And can you explain what you meant by 8 that? 9 A: Well, I was concerned that -- my 10 understanding was there was a bonfire at the parking lot, 11 and I was certainly concerned about the relative 12 proximity to the cottages that are there. 13 Q: All right, and just for your 14 information, I anticipate the evidence of Sergeant 15 Lacroix will be that when he led the CMU down the road 16 there that night, he didn't see any bonfire in the 17 parking space, as he expected. 18 And so from his evidence, it didn't appear 19 there were any. 20 A: Well, my understanding from his 21 evidence it will be indicated that it's just inside the 22 fence of the Park. 23 Q: Just inside the fence, in the Park? 24 I see, and -- 25 A: I think he has a statement to that
1541 effect that he provided to me. 2 Q: All right, and so was that the -- the 3 reality at the time on September 6th, there was one (1) 4 or more bonfires, but they were inside the Park rather 5 than in the parking lot? 6 A: That appears to be the case, given 7 his statement. 8 Q: I see. So it wasn't the case of any 9 campfires being in this parking lot? 10 A: My perception was there was a bonfire 11 in the parking lot, but I -- I may be mistaken in that. 12 It may have been, in fact, just inside the fence on the 13 Park itself. 14 Q: I see. And I don't recall you ever 15 expressing any objection to protesters having campfires 16 inside the Park? 17 A: No. 18 Q: That wasn't a problem? 19 A: Well, -- 20 Q: I mean -- 21 A: It wasn't a problem we were going to 22 address. 23 Q: Right. But as with everything else 24 on the 5th and the 6th, provided those campfires stayed 25 inside the Park, it wasn't something you were going to
1551 take active measures on? 2 A: Fair enough. 3 Q: Okay. And so in reality, we probably 4 shouldn't consider those bonfires as a factor that would 5 have been taken into account on September 6th, in the 6 decision to deploy forces towards the Park; is that fair? 7 A: I can tell you today my understanding 8 is they were in -- just inside the Park according to 9 Lacroix's statement. 10 My perception was they were in the parking 11 lot on June -- or, I'm sorry, September the 6th, 1995. 12 Q: So that perception appears to have 13 been in error? 14 A: Correct. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: So if I take the campfires out of the 19 equation, I don't recall there having been anything else 20 according to your evidence, of a physical nature that was 21 located in the parking lot on the evening of September 22 6th, other than individuals? 23 A: Individuals with bats, yes. 24 Q: Yeah. And so at the point in time 25 when, for example, Sergeant Wright came around the corner
1561 and headed for the first -- and eventually headed for the 2 first checkpoint, the only thing we have in the parking 3 lot, we don't have any bonfires, we have those 4 individuals with those objects in their hand that he 5 identifies; is that right? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: So at that point, all we have in 8 terms of escalation at the Park right at that point, is 9 those individuals with those sticks; right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Or whatever you want to call them. 12 A: Well, and the damaged vehicle shortly 13 thereafter. 14 Q: And the damaged vehicle shortly 15 thereafter, all right. And it appears that based on 16 those individuals in that parking lot with the sticks and 17 then with the damaged vehicles, Sergeant Wright held back 18 the ERT teams; is that right? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And is it fair to say that the 21 holding back of the ERT teams was the first significant 22 step in mobilizing the police forces that eventually 23 moved on the Park? 24 A: That's fair. 25 Q: All right. So if I'm looking at the
1571 steps here, I can -- I can look at the encounter by Mr. 2 Wright in the Park with the individuals with the sticks, 3 then the dented car incident, then we have Mr. Wright -- 4 Detective Sergeant Wright holding back the day shift. 5 And then several other events occurred at the command 6 post before you arrived there. 7 One (1) was Inspector Linton called out 8 the TRU, and eventually -- there's a little bit of 9 confusion about that; is that right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And, that was the beginning of the 12 mobilization of TRU, is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, again, after Detective Sergeant 15 Wright held back the day shift, before you got to the 16 command post, somebody, it appears Korosec, called in 17 Lacroix to head up the CMU, right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Now, do you recall what the situation 20 was like when you arrived at the command post? First of 21 all, do you recall what time it was that you arrived at 22 the command post? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1581 A: 8:29. 2 Q: And that's from the scribe notes, 3 which indicate John Carson arrived at 20:29 hours or 4 8:29, is that right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And, by then, according to the scribe 7 notes, TRU has been called in, that's the entry for 8 20:20? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: 20:21 Korosec calls Wade Lacroix for 11 the -- for the CMU? 12 Now, when you got to the command post, 13 what was the situation? 14 A: Well, the situation was that Linton 15 had called the TRU team out and the ERT officers were 16 standing by in the -- at the Forest Detachment. 17 Q: When you -- when you say they were, 18 "standing by," was Korosec there with them? 19 A: I believe Korosec was in the command 20 trailer. 21 Q: And was Lacroix there when you got 22 there? 23 A: I think Lacroix actually arrives 24 later. I think I was already back for a bit before he 25 actually arrives, but I do recall him being there and
1591 getting prepared to go out because him and I had some 2 discussion before -- before he left the command area. 3 Q: I see. And, when you said ERT were, 4 "standing by," do you mean in the garage there at the 5 command post? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And did you see them physically with 8 your own eyes? 9 A: There was -- there was a number of 10 officers there, I mean, they were in grey uniforms. The 11 ERT people, you know, I didn't check to see which team 12 was which or who was who, but there was certainly a 13 number of officers there. 14 Q: When you say, "a number," two (2) 15 teams is, I think you mentioned -- 16 A: It would be approximately thirty (30) 17 people. 18 Q: Right. Thirty (30) -- thirty (30) 19 plus thirty (30)? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Fifteen (15) plus fifteen (15)? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And so, there was -- was there around 24 twenty-five (25) -- 25 A: I didn't go into the garage area.
1601 Q: I see. Okay. 2 A: There was a number of officers out 3 and around the detachment. I -- I didn't go do a head 4 count or -- or check to see who was in the garage -- 5 Q: So you -- 6 A: -- I went directly into the trailer. 7 Q: You didn't look into the garage? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Do you know if the -- the ERT members 10 who were there had their CMU kit or equipment taken out 11 of their trunks when you arrived there? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: You don't remember one (1) way or the 14 other? 15 A: I -- I didn't take notice, quite 16 frankly or I certainly don't remember at this point, 17 anyway. 18 Q: Right. And then what happened when 19 you arrived at the command post? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Thank you. Mr. Millar's just pointed 24 out a number of tapes, phone conversations and so forth 25 and we've -- we've heard those.
1611 I'm just wondering if you can add anything 2 to those that have already been heard? 3 What -- can you tell us something about 4 what you found when you had arrived and walked into the 5 command post? 6 A: Well, I had a discussion with 7 Inspector Linton. I was concerned, which is the reason 8 why I returned to the command post, of a TRU team being 9 called out. And as indicated on the telephone call, I 10 suggesting that using TRU for an arrest team and we've 11 discussed that, was not the --the best use of the TRU 12 resources. 13 So we had some discussion at that point in 14 time of how we deal with this situation as far as dealing 15 with the parking on the parking lot. 16 Q: Can I just pause for you -- do you 17 actually have recollection, for example, of where you had 18 this discussion with -- 19 A: That discussion took place in the 20 command post, in the conference area of the trailer. 21 Q: All right, and was it just you and 22 Inspector Linton? 23 A: We were having a one-on-one. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I was concerned; I wanted to clarify
1621 with him exactly what he was doing, because I did have 2 concern about the resources he was calling out and wanted 3 to understand exactly what we're doing and why we're 4 doing it. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: So as a result of that discussion, 7 what -- what he had intended to do was use TRU to go in 8 and to simply make arrests of the people on the parking 9 lot with the sticks relevant to the damaged vehicle. And 10 there was certainly -- 11 Q: Can I just pause you there. I don't 12 mean to interrupt, but on that point, it just seems to 13 me, to send in somebody, a team of whatever, TRU or 14 someone else, to arrest individuals with sticks who are 15 on the parking lot half an hour ago, seems to me to be a 16 bit of a difficult enterprise, because obviously, they 17 may have moved on or it's all too easy for them to ramble 18 back into the Park. 19 So it seems a bit problematic. Did it 20 seem that way to you? Aside from TRU, just sending 21 people to arrest those people? 22 A: Well, first -- first off, I've -- you 23 know, off the top of my head, without listening to the 24 radio transmissions, there was information coming back -- 25 back and forth and officers assigned down there to
1631 observe. 2 Quite frankly, if -- if they had sent an 3 arrest team down there and no one had been on the parking 4 lot, it would -- would have been the ideal situation, 5 quite frankly. However -- 6 Q: Before you leave that point, to send 7 an arrest team, why would you send an arrest team -- an 8 arrest team there? What is an arrest team? 9 A: It's police officers assigned to go 10 conduct an arrest. 11 Q: And is that a -- one (1) cruiser with 12 two (2) people or four (4) cruisers or... 13 A: Well, that's a determination of the 14 individuals at the time, based on whatever circumstances 15 you're dealing with? 16 So ideally, an arrest team could be as -- 17 as few as one (1) person who says, you're under arrest, 18 and someone complies and comes along in a compliant 19 fashion. 20 Q: So you didn't have an idea about what 21 kind of arrest team you wanted to send down there -- 22 A: No, that's what I said. 23 Q: I'm just trying to understand. 24 A: Well, I was trying to explain what 25 our discussion was --
1641 Q: All right. 2 A: When you stopped me from explaining, 3 so. 4 Q: Sorry. 5 A: So we had a discussion about how we 6 deal with this situation and, quite frankly, I -- I 7 reminded Dale, like, what is our objective here and that 8 we had the injunction coming the next morning. And he 9 shared with me the issue that there had been a vehicle 10 damaged down there and what Mark Wright had seen and that 11 there are a number of people down there on that roadway 12 with bats. 13 And there was a concern that if somebody 14 stumbled into that area, what -- what would happen. And 15 we've already had concern from the community that they 16 were going to march on to the -- the Park down there, 17 that we didn't want to leave a situation that would 18 develop into a greater altercation there. 19 So, one (1) of the options was, we could 20 have simply assigned ERT people go down in arrest teams 21 and attempt to make an arrest. But given the 22 circumstance that had taken place on September 4th, I 23 mean, certainly when the occupation of the Park started 24 it got into a significant altercation where the officers 25 were -- were met with certainly some violence with flares
1651 and cruiser windows smashed out by a stick and some other 2 issues. 3 And so between the two (2) of us we felt 4 that the best way to do this is simply move in with a 5 crowd management team with a number of officers. And if 6 we were able to make an arrest with the people with the 7 clubs, fine, but if they ran back into the Park and 8 stayed in the Park, that's fine, because tomorrow morning 9 we're going to know the outcome of the injunction. 10 So, ideally, we felt the best approach was 11 to use the crowd management team and which would simply 12 by their presence, they would leave the parking lot back 13 into the Provincial Park and that would be the end of it 14 and we could keep observation on that area for the night, 15 pending the application in the morning. 16 Now at that same time we're getting other 17 information that's occurring. I don't know if you want 18 to speak to that. 19 Q: Well, the records show that Inspector 20 Linton, at several points, raised one (1) or more points 21 -- raised the fact that a statement was expected from the 22 officer down at the checkpoint regarding the vehicle. 23 Do you recall any discussion with 24 Inspector Linton about that report; did he raise that? 25 Did he mention to you that a report was
1661 being taken, a witness statement was being taken? 2 A: I can't recall if he said a statement 3 was being taken but he certainly apprised me that a 4 vehicle had been damaged. 5 Q: Yeah. No, I'm particularly 6 interested in the statement because -- 7 A: Well, quite frankly, I can't speak to 8 the statement. 9 Q: Yeah. No, did you -- did he mention 10 to you, to your recollection, that a statement was being 11 taken? 12 A: In all fairness, I can't be sure that 13 he did or didn't say that. 14 Q: All right. And did you suggest that 15 you get more information about the damaged vehicle? 16 A: I don't believe I spoke to that 17 point, that I can recall anyway. I certainly asked what 18 -- what had happened obviously, but. 19 Q: So at this point you were operating 20 on information about two (2) incidents. This is the Mark 21 Wright encounter with First Nations people in the parking 22 lot and the damaged car; is that right? 23 A: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Sandler...?
1671 MR. MARK SANDLER: I was just going to 2 say, I know this is inadvertent. The Witness actually 3 said that there were other things that were happening at 4 that point in time, do you want me to get into them and 5 then you came back and asked him some other things. So 6 I'm not sure that's quite accurate. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I asked Deputy 8 Carson -- Deputy Commissioner Carson for a reason about 9 the sequence of events and the sequence of the 10 information. And I think Deputy Commissioner Carson has 11 just said that, at this point where he got to in his 12 narrative, those were the two (2) points, the two (2) 13 incidents that you were dealing with. 14 Do you want to change your answer or add 15 to it or -- 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, not a change, he 17 was about to add something else to it. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 20 Q: All right. What else were you 21 referring to when you talked about other things? 22 A: Well, there was other information 23 about a person in the kiosk and there was information 24 came back from Mark Dew about that same time -- Constable 25 Mark Dew, about kids being picked up as the women feel
1681 there is something about to happen. 2 And it was at that point or in and around 3 that time, within a few minutes anyway that -- 4 Q: Now just a minute -- you said within 5 a few minutes, what did you mean by that? Because I just 6 want to understand whether you were addressing the 7 information from Mark Wright about the First Nations 8 people at the corner or were you -- and then the 9 information from Mark Wright about the damaged car and 10 then some other information? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I tried -- 14 Q: So first, just to be clear about 15 this, first you were dealing with the information about 16 the First Nations people at the corner of the parking lot 17 and the damaged car and then you received other 18 information. 19 A: If you're asking about the sequence 20 of events or what I did when I arrived back there; is 21 that what you're asking me? 22 Q: No. I'm asking about the sequence of 23 you dealing -- well, of -- of you having this 24 information -- 25 A: Well, it's impossible to say it
1691 happened in this particular order. It was chaos when I 2 arrived back there. I had discussions with Dale Linton. 3 There was a lot of information, a lot of 4 discussion and a -- a lot of things being shared back and 5 forth and some decisions had to be made. So to say that 6 I was dealing with this issue, then went to the next one, 7 to the next one, in the real world, I -- I don't get them 8 in any particular order, they come in a barrage 9 sometimes. 10 So I -- in all fairness, I mean, there's 11 umpteen balls in the air at that moment. 12 Q: All right. Go ahead. 13 A: So I arrived back at the command post 14 at 20:29. I certainly had some discussion with Inspector 15 Linton and I attempted to call the TRU team and we've 16 heard that particular telephone call. 17 I was concerned about the TRU team 18 bringing their trucks up the highway and going past the 19 Army Camp as, I think it's been explained, their vehicles 20 are large cube vans and quite noticeable type vehicles. 21 And -- 22 Q: Can I just ask, before you move on, 23 you've mentioned the person in the kiosk and the kids 24 being picked up and those show up -- 25 A: Right.
1701 Q: -- in the scribe notes at 20:29; is 2 that right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Is there any information that you 5 received or the command post received about a person or 6 persons in the kiosks before 20:29, to your knowledge or 7 recollection? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: All right. So at 20:26 we have Mark 10 Dew, according to the scribe notes, reporting Native 11 women and children moving out; right? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And that appears to be the first 14 report, in this record, of women and children, right, 15 moving out? 16 A: Yes. Yes. 17 Q: Yes. And the person in the kiosk, 18 that you mentioned, appears to be mentioned for the first 19 time in this record anyway, at 20:29; right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Now, I'm asking this, Deputy 22 Commissioner, because although you say there were many 23 things happening, they didn't all start at the same 24 instant and some may have been caused by others and I 25 want to see if we can understand any of that.
1711 So, for example, the person in the kiosk, 2 it appears at least from this record -- well, if we go 3 further back, I see at 20:14 it says: 4 "Stan Korosec reports one (1) person in 5 kiosk and closed blinds." 6 Right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Do you recall if that was dealt with 9 any earlier or appeared any earlier than 20:14; do you 10 know? 11 A: When I was at dinner, I have no idea 12 what they did. 13 Q: All right. So when you -- when you 14 came into the -- as you were heading into the command 15 post you knew nothing about a person in a kiosk? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: All right. And when you were heading 18 into the command post you knew nothing about women and 19 children allegedly leaving; right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: All right. Continue. 22 A: So all this was happening just as I 23 arrive. I attempted to -- or I did call the TRU team on 24 a cellular phone, but as it happens the TRU team leader 25 was almost at Forest anyway and what I was attempting to
1721 do was to have him stand down the vehicles at Pinery and 2 -- but anyway, they'd already come up the highway and 3 they were diverted to the TOC site, the -- the cube vans, 4 themselves and the -- the team leader arrived at Forest 5 detachment. 6 I talked to Staff Sergeant Skinner about 7 the activity in the kiosk and the potential of 8 somebody being in there and I asked him to assign someone 9 to have a look to see what activity was going on in the 10 kiosk, if we could determine what was going on there. 11 Q: And who did you -- so you asked 12 Skinner to send somebody? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Now Skinner was the head of the TRU 15 teams? 16 A: The TRU leader, yes. 17 Q: So you had the TRU leader in the 18 command post and the TRU cube vans had been diverted to 19 TOC; right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: So at this point, TRU was actually 22 heading for TOC, about point seven (0.7) kilometres from 23 the Park; is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Now I see -- before you
1731 continue, just for clarification, I see on the scribe 2 notes that at 20:26: 3 "I want TRU to stay at Pinery". 4 Right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: How does that fit with what you just 7 described about TRU being close to the command post and 8 going to TOC? 9 A: Well, I think if you read that whole 10 entry it says: 11 "Dale Linton to COM centre. I want TRU 12 to stay at the Pinery, ready." 13 Obviously from my discussion with Linton 14 by phone and my concern about the deployment of TRU, he's 15 attempting to hold the TRU back. 16 Q: Hold them back at Pinery? 17 A: Right. But obviously they've already 18 made their way -- or started to make their way up towards 19 Forest. 20 Q: Just so I understand. So these notes 21 suggest that Dale Linton said: 22 "I want TRU to stay at Pinery, ready." 23 But, in fact, TRU had already -- were 24 already well on their way to Forest? 25 A: Right. Because they -- they had
1741 already been called out -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- and they were responding as 4 requested. 5 Q: So they didn't stay at Pinery and 6 they didn't return to Pinery; right? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Instead they -- did they ever reach 9 Forest? 10 A: The TRU team leader did. 11 Q: But not the two (2) -- the two (2) 12 vans? 13 A: The vans went to the TOC site. I 14 don't know where they were when they turned around. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Whether they were almost in Forest or 17 where but. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. I 19 don't know, Commissioner, if it's a good time now for a 20 break. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. Sure 22 if this is a good time for you, we'll break now. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll have
1751 our afternoon break now. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 2:42 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 3:01 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 17 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, we had a 18 little discussion before the break about the TRU trucks 19 or cube vans, and just for clarity on the record, I'd 20 like to just understand a bit more about that to the 21 extent you have knowledge about it. 22 Now you, personally, weren't present, 23 obviously, in the command post when Inspector Linton 24 called out TRU; right? 25 A: That's correct.
1761 Q: And to the best of your information, 2 TRU started out from Pinery Park; right? 3 A: I'm sorry? 4 Q: To the best of your information, TRU 5 started out from Pinery Park; is that right? 6 A: That's where they were housed. 7 Q: Right. And you know they never made 8 it all the way to Forest; is that right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: I have seen some suggestion that they 11 actually went back to the Pinery Park. But I'm just 12 seeking clarification if you know that to be the case or 13 that's an area that you don't know. 14 Did they in fact go all the way to Pinery 15 Park or they just didn't go back or do you happen -- 16 A: I -- I have no information one (1) 17 way or the other. 18 Q: I see. Okay. 19 A: I'm not aware of them going back to 20 the Pinery Park but I -- I couldn't -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- in any all certainty suggest 23 that's inaccurate either. 24 Q: But they ended up at TOC? 25 A: Right, right.
1771 Q: Right. And I believe I've seen a 2 suggestion that the TRU cube vans came from Pinery Park 3 towards Forest along Highway 21 and that would make sense 4 because that's the -- 5 A: It's the shortest route. 6 Q: -- shortest and best route; right? 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: And you don't know how far they got 9 to Forest? 10 A: I don't. 11 Q: Now that route goes right past the 12 Army Base. 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And if they drove past the Army Base 15 on the way to Forest, they could potentially have been 16 seen by native individuals in the Army Camp; right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And if they were seen by Native 19 individuals in the Army Camp, it's possible that raised 20 some serious concerns on their part; is that right? 21 A: If they knew what it was. 22 Q: Well, you've expressed concern that 23 if the TRU cube vans showed up in Forest it would raise 24 concerns; right? 25 A: Right, exactly.
1781 Q: And that was an important concern for 2 you; right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And such concerns would apply even 5 more to those cube vans going past the Army Base because 6 the people at the Army Base were in an even more tense 7 situation; is that right? 8 A: Well, that was my issue of them 9 coming to Forest, that they would be driving by the 10 Military Base. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: So we're certainly in agreement on 13 that. 14 Q: So you were concerned not only that 15 they would appear in Forest, but that they would drive 16 by the Army Camp and would be seen by the Native protest 17 -- by Native people there? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: All right. And, in fact, you don't 20 know if they ended up as far or past the Army Base; do 21 you? 22 A: I don't know that. 23 Q: And it's possible that if those TRU 24 cube vans drove past the Army Base, then what you feared 25 happened, did in fact happen; they were noticed and
1791 caused consternation amongst people there, is that fair? 2 A: Well, I don't know if that was the 3 result or not, but it was -- 4 Q: It's a -- it's a possibility? 5 A: It's a possibility, sure. 6 Q: Yes. And so when you said -- when 7 you talked about Native... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, My Friend has pointed out to me 12 that, according to a call at about 20:29 on September 6, 13 in other words, about 8:29, there's a conversation 14 between yourself and Carson (sic) that's very brief and 15 it's in -- it's list -- it's identified as Skinner, but I 16 believe, in fact, it turned out to be Deane; is that 17 right? 18 A: I believe that's right. 19 Q: And do you recall that call? 20 A: Yeah, I'm aware of that. 21 Q: Yeah. And at that point, shortly 22 after the beginning of that phone call at 20:20 or 8 -- 23 8:29, you say: 24 "Kent, hold the team down, okay?" 25 And Deane says:
1801 "Okay. Hold on we're -- Inspector, we 2 just pulled into Forest. 3 Into where? 4 Forest Detachment. 5 Okay, take -- take the gun trucks back 6 to the Park." 7 Okay? Do you recall that? 8 A: I -- I believe that's accurate, yes. 9 Q: All right. So that appears to 10 suggest that the TRU gun trucks, as you call them, made 11 it from the Pinery all the way to Forest. 12 A: No, not necessarily. What would 13 happen there is, the TRU team leader would head out in 14 his car and the trucks would be brought up by the other 15 officers on the TRU team. 16 In all likelihood, the car with the TRU 17 team leader would be quite a distance ahead of the 18 trucks. 19 Q: All right. I noticed that Deane 20 says: 21 "Inspector, we just pulled into 22 Forest." 23 So that could be the car plus some other 24 trucks; right? 25 A: I suspect it would be him in the car
1811 with Skinner. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: Because I called -- I -- I believe I 4 would have called Skinner's cell phone, which is in his 5 car. 6 Q: And in any case, since the car just 7 pulled into Forest, there's a good chance it's not a 8 probability that the trucks, themselves, have passed the 9 Army Base on Highway 21? 10 A: Oh, it's quite possible, yes. 11 Q: In fact, it's probable, isn't it? It 12 wouldn't be that far behind? 13 A: Well, it would be a bit of a 14 distance. The trucks can't travel the same speed as the 15 vehicle. There's certainly a bit of a difference there. 16 Q: Now, the -- 17 A: But it û- but anyway. 18 Q: But we -- weÆre talking twelve (12) 19 kilometres or something. So the trucks would have passed 20 the Army Base; right? 21 A: Quite likely. 22 Q: Yeah. Quite likely they passed the 23 Army Base. So we have a situation where these -- these 24 gun trucks, which you are afraid will frighten people, 25 have passed the Army Base. And it's possible that they
1821 were seen by Native people. 2 And wouldn't you agree it's possible that 3 that may be one (1) reason why women and children 4 apparently were afraid something was going to happen; 5 isn't that a possibility? 6 A: I have no idea. 7 Q: Well, -- 8 A: I mean, that's a pretty significant 9 stretch, I guess, but. 10 Q: Well, let's see if it's a significant 11 stretch. You -- the whole reason you told the gun trucks 12 to go back to the Pinery Park was precisely for that 13 fear. You thought people would see the trucks and be 14 frightened and -- and that tensions would increase and 15 people might not react calmly; isn't that right? 16 A: That's fair. 17 Q: And that may well be exactly what 18 happened when the trucks went past the Army Base; isn't 19 that right? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Downard...? 22 OBJ MR. PETER DOWNARD: It just seems to me 23 that we're -- this is an example of -- of an assumption 24 upon an assumption upon an assumption upon an assumption, 25 and that is said to support an assertion of fact.
1831 We have heard from many Stoney Point 2 people. I don't believe we've heard a word from anyone 3 that anyone in the Army Camp or that there was word among 4 the occupiers that TRU trucks had been seen going by the 5 -- the Army Camp and that had caused any concern at all, 6 let along that that had caused the departure of women and 7 children. 8 So, it just seems to me that it's not -- 9 it's not very fair to be pursuing this. It's -- it's 10 exceptionally speculative, and all the evidence we've 11 heard provides no basis for it whatsoever, and it would 12 appear to suggest to the contrary. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 14 Downard. Yes...? 15 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Commissioner, 16 Jennifer Gleitman for the OPPA. I support My Friend's 17 objection, obviously. There's no issue with Counsel 18 putting situations to the Witness, provided that they're 19 supported either by evidence that the Inquiry has heard 20 to date -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: -- or evidence 23 that's to come. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I don't 25 think there has been any evidence from any of the
1841 occupiers regarding seeing the TRU trucks go by. 2 Yes, Mr. Falconer...? 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: From ASLT's point 4 of view, the question's important for two (2) reasons. 5 One, there has been evidence, I -- would have to candidly 6 admit to you, Mr. Commissioner, I wasn't here for it, but 7 I've seen the evidence. 8 There has been evidence that -- may I 9 finish? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 11 I'm not sure that there has been. I was just asking. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I would -- no, I 13 hadn't finished my sentence. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: With respect. 16 There has been evidence that the reaction in respect of 17 the women and children related to, quote, unquote: 18 "police forces building up"; that that -- that was a 19 concern expressed, and that the police forces building up 20 caused people to do certain things. 21 Now, how people interpret police forces as 22 to whether it gun trucks from TRU teams or CMU or 23 anything else, is of course, a matter of interpretation. 24 But certainly there was some evidence that 25 -- that they saw that the police were building up. Now,
1851 police building up could be the very concern that Deputy 2 Carson had. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But he's 4 asking him now about the TRU trucks going by. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But how did -- but 6 that's my point. When Mr. Downard says there no 7 evidence -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of the TRU 9 trucks having gone by -- 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- having 12 caused anything. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- with -- with all 14 due respect, Mr. Commissioner, and I don't mean to argue 15 with you, but with all due respect, a lay person sees a 16 gun truck with OPP insignia, to them, it's the police. 17 And if they see a number of those trucks all headed 18 towards the area, to me those are police forces. 19 So all I'm saying is -- I'm not saying I 20 know that for a fact -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What I'm saying is, 23 with all due respect to Mr. Downard, he's in error when 24 he says there's no evidence. 25 The question is, what people meant by
1861 police forces building up and the simple point that I say 2 it's very fair that Mr. Klippenstein's allowed to make to 3 the Witness, is that the very fear you had may have come 4 to fruition -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- and that may 7 explain why in and around exactly that time, these people 8 had the concerns they had. 9 So -- so -- there is some evidence, I 10 don't say it's perfect, but there's some evidence. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 Yes, Mr. Millar...? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The evidence actually 14 was, as I recall it, the highest -- there was evidence of 15 people said there was a police build up and the reference 16 was to cars. 17 And no one was asked by anyone, as I 18 recall, if they'd seen a TRU van at the Army Camp. No 19 one said they'd seen a police van go by the Army Camp. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Apart from 21 not being asked, no one volunteered it, no one -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No one said -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- said, it 24 wasn't mentioned, I didn't hear anything at all. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, but people did
1871 say -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That there 3 was a build up. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There was a build up 5 and it was mostly referenced to cruisers -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: More cruisers and 8 police. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 10 depending how you ask the question, carry on. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN With respect, 12 and if I may address the issue, this is -- I am inquiring 13 into this expert's -- this individual's knowledge and I 14 didn't start by putting to him any assertions about 15 evidence from other witnesses. I purely was asking him 16 about what his position was. 17 And very clearly, Deputy Commissioner 18 Carson had a concern that night that the appearance of 19 the TRU gun trucks would cause problems. And he has 20 agreed with me to every question. So why I should be 21 suddenly cut off when this witness is agreeing with -- 22 and -- and -- and is -- is -- is agreeing that this is a 23 real question, I don't understand. 24 And so I don't fundamentally understand 25 Mr. Downard's objection.
1881 I'm here to extract, if I can, useful 2 information from this Witness, not other witnesses. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that the 4 objection and -- and -- I -- I -- I have certainly had no 5 problems with the questions that My -- I think the 6 objection in a nutshell was, the linking of his concern 7 about the TRU vans to the aboriginal -- to the -- the 8 women and children who were leaving. My Friend said -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- perhaps it's 11 because of the TRU van. The TRU -- they saw the TRU vans 12 and that was their concern. And there's no evidence and 13 there's no evidence of -- the evidence was that there was 14 a buildup, that that was -- of police, that there was 15 more cruisers and people thought more police officers. 16 But no one had ever -- no one said 17 anything about the TRU van. And -- and really what My 18 Friend is asking is for the Witness to put himself into 19 the minds of the -- of the people who left and -- and -- 20 and he's making a link there. 21 I think he's -- he's asked this Witness 22 and this Witness said he was concerned about that. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 24 Horton? 25 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I -- I
1891 understand this line of questioning quite differently to 2 what Mr. Millar has just stated. 3 It is -- it -- it may or may not link up 4 in the way that Mr. Falconer has suggested to the 5 evidence from the First Nation witnesses. I suggest that 6 it does, simply because of their lack of expertise in 7 how they might describe vehicles cannot be presumed that 8 they're not referring to these particular trucks, but 9 leave that aside. 10 There's a whole other dimension to this 11 and that is, what was in the mind of Commissioner Carson? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And what -- and the 14 question -- these -- this line of questioning goes to 15 Inspector Carson as he then was, apparent lack of 16 curiosity about some of the facts that were taking place 17 on the ground before he made the decisions that he made. 18 He was aware of the fact that there were 19 women and children moving out of the Park from which 20 apparently he drew conclusions that the occupiers were 21 moving into an offensive stance. 22 Did he take into account information that 23 would readily have suggested to him that what they were 24 doing was preparing to be attacked by the police? And 25 it's his state of mind that this goes to.
1901 If he, himself, was aware that certain 2 activities of the police could have caused alarm in the 3 minds of the occupiers and did not take into -- that into 4 account in interpreting the occupiers' behaviour, that is 5 very significant. And that's what this line of 6 questioning goes to. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 8 think -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Nobody objects to -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Nobody 11 objects to that. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Mr. Klippenstein 13 asking what he thought. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 15 that's absolutely clear. When you were doing that there 16 were no objections and I think as long as that's what 17 you're doing, you should continue to do it. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: Thank you Commissioner. I think just 21 going back to -- to try and locate what some of my 22 questions were addressing, Deputy Commissioner Carson, we 23 are agreed that the lead car of the TRU team did arrive 24 in Forest; is that right? 25 A: Yes, it did.
1911 Q: Now, you also said that the TRU cube 2 vans were coming behind and my question to you was 3 something like: Since the Army Base is something like 12 4 kilometres from Forest, give or take, that it is likely 5 and we can -- we can probably assume that the cube vans 6 on their way to Forest had already passed the Army Base 7 if the lead car was arriving in Forest; correct? 8 A: That's fair. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You already 10 asked that question and we know the answer. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 13 setting it up again. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I was -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because that 16 question was asked and answered, that's not a question. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- that may 18 be. I was surprised by the objections and I'm not as 19 smart as I wish I was, I get confused easily. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That 21 question was asked and answered -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so 24 there's no problem with that. 25
1921 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: So -- and, the -- the reason you 3 didn't want the cube vans in Forest was because of the 4 reaction that those cube vans might provoke in -- people 5 in Forest; is that right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And the reaction that they might 8 provoke in the people in Forest that you were concerned 9 about, would be alarm and potentially fear and 10 potentially overreaction; is that correct? 11 A: That's fair. 12 Q: And then I suggested to you that 13 logically the presence of those vans driving by the army 14 base is just as likely if not more likely to provoke 15 those concerns -- those anticipated reactions that you 16 were concerned about in the Army Base as they were in the 17 people in Forest; is that right? 18 A: That's fair. 19 Q: And in fact it's probably more likely 20 that the reactions you were concerned about would be 21 provoked at the military base and would be provoked to a 22 greater extent in the Military Base than they would have 23 been in Forest? 24 A: That's fair. 25 Q: All right. And so it's reasonable --
1931 well let me put it this way. It's not unreasonable to 2 think that individuals in the Army Camp, the Army Base, 3 did in fact see those cube vans go past at that time; is 4 that right? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's a 6 question that I think is objectionable. There isn't 7 anything in the evidence, either that we've heard so far 8 or that I think we're going to hear, that that's what 9 happened. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: My question 11 was, Commissioner, whether it was unreasonable for us to 12 expect that. And it's a question that's based on this 13 witness' knowledge of the Army Base, Highway 21, the time 14 of day which was still daylight. 15 And it's a simple question about someone 16 who has knowledge of the trucks, the location, the 17 highway that it's not unreasonable to expect that 18 somebody in that location might see those trucks go by. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 20 think if you asked -- well, I think if you asked the 21 question a little differently you might be able to ask 22 it. But I think the way you've asked it, it's predicated 23 on evidence that we not only don't have, we're not going 24 to have, as I understand. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I with
1941 respect, I am not asking about evidence of past witness-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it's 3 evidence that you anticipate, that would be different. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And to be 5 honest, one (1) reason I'm asking these questions, 6 Commissioner, is that I genuinely didn't realize until 7 this moment that those trucks had apparently gone by the 8 Army Base. 9 Because my conclusion or my -- my 10 estimation from the evidence that I saw was that they had 11 turned back to Pinery. And the possibility that they had 12 driven by the Army Base had never occurred to me. And 13 therefore for example I never questioned any of the 14 Native witnesses on this very issue. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Because in 17 fact, the -- the wit -- the evidence tended to not allow 18 for this possibility. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, the 20 fact is we don't have any evidence about this, that's -- 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, it's -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Except for 23 the general evidence Mr. Falconer referred to there was 24 some evidence given of a buildup, a police buildup. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well we now
1951 have the evidence this far with respect I submit, 2 Commissioner, that those trucks did go in all likelihood 3 past that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not did, 5 could have. I don't think he said did. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I think -- I 7 think he said that they likely did. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Likely. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. 10 Probably. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: From -- from my 13 client's point of view, Commissioner, it's at least worth 14 exploring because, given what's at stake here, certainly 15 it wasn't my clients that raised the women and children 16 issue, it was Deputy Commissioner Carson and the police. 17 And they rely on it for a very important 18 purpose which is part of a mix of reasons that justified 19 the deployment of substantial force. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We've 21 had this discussion. I think you should -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So I wonder if 23 I -- if I -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- if nothing
1961 else be indulged for a bit. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, do you 6 know if anyone, on that evening, inquired into or raised 7 the possibility that the references to women and children 8 leaving might be connected to the TRU vans going past the 9 Army Base? 10 Was that possibility raised in your mind 11 or by you or by anybody else to your recollection or? 12 A: Not to my recollection. 13 Q: And I haven't seen in any of the 14 evidence seen or heard or anticipated evidence that I've 15 seen or heard, any suggestion, for example, by Skinner or 16 Deane or Mark Wright or Linton when this issue was raised 17 that, Hey, what about this possibility? 18 So I -- can I take it that you're -- there 19 is no evidence that we can point to that says this 20 possible explanation for the women and children leaving 21 was -- was considered? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think -- I 23 don't think it's fair to say -- ask the question, There 24 is no evidence. 25 You can ask what this man knows or what he
1971 doesn't know. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And not the question, 4 There is no evidence. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you've 6 pointed that out before. I think that's a fair 7 observation and I think you've agreed with that, Mr. 8 Klippenstein. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, I 13 think you can ask him what he knows or doesn't know. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Thank you, 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 21 Q: Well, this will be my -- my last 22 question on this particular topic. Are you aware of any 23 document that you can point me to that -- that addresses 24 this issue in the sense of showing that somebody was -- 25 somebody allowed for the possibility that the men -- that
1981 the women and children were leaving because of the TRU 2 trucks going past? 3 Can you point to any document, have you 4 seen any document that raises that possible explanation? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Now, in the telephone 7 conversation I just alluded to you very briefly, between 8 yourself and Deane, you instructed Deane to take the gun 9 trucks back to the Park; right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And you meant the Pinery Park? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And do you know if those gun trucks 14 headed back to Pinery Park? 15 A: I don't have that information for 16 sure. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Because we had discussion right -- 19 shortly thereafter about putting a Sierra team in to have 20 a look at the kiosk. 21 So I'm not sure if -- you know, depending 22 on their location at that point in time, they may have 23 been, for argument's sake, in the Ravenswood area and 24 simply diverted across the County Road and up Parkway 25 Drive, I don't know for sure.
1991 Q: All right, and -- 2 A: Without -- without having to go back 3 past the Park or the Base. 4 Q: Do you know what your -- what is the 5 next location point of those TRU gun trucks, that you 6 know of? Where did they, to your knowledge, next show 7 up, if you will? 8 A: At the TOC site. 9 Q: All right, so after you instructed 10 Deane to take them back to the Park, presumably there was 11 a further change in instructions somewhere or something 12 but they -- they -- they -- the last -- the next point 13 you saw them was, or were aware of their presence, was at 14 TOC, right? 15 A: Right, when I was on -- I was on the 16 cell phone with the TRU team which was apparently Ken 17 Deane I was talking to, was at 20:36 hours. At 20:37 18 they -- Skinner was at the command post, so he was very 19 close, geographically. 20 And we obviously had a discussion right 21 shortly thereafter about the kiosk situation and that we 22 needed to have someone get an eye in that area. 23 So that information would have been 24 provided to the TRU team, right directly, so I'm -- I 25 would suggest that they went from wherever they were at
2001 that point, directly to the TOC site. 2 Q: And do I understand you to be saying 3 that it was the report of a person in a kiosk that then 4 caused the TRU gun trucks to be redirected towards the 5 Park area, towards the Ipperwash Park, the TOC area? 6 A: Correct, that's one (1) -- one (1) of 7 the tasks we wanted to do, yes. 8 Q: All right, and I'm trying to avoid 9 the question of exactly where or how the trucks went, but 10 they were then re-deployed because of the report of the 11 person in the kiosk; is that your knowledge? 12 A: Right, because of a discussion I had 13 with Skinner at 20:37 hours. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, at the time that the TRU gun 18 trucks were re-directed to the... 19 I guess that was an objection. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe we 21 should turn off the air conditioning and take the 22 pressure off the system. No? 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, 24 I'll just pause and see whether the electronics are 25 working, if that's appropriate?
2011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Shall I 4 continue? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 6 you should. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 9 Q: Okay. So, I -- I take it then, 10 Deputy Commissioner Carson, that the TRU gun trucks were 11 re-deployed to the TOC area because of the person in the 12 kiosk; is that right? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: So, they were at first deployed from 15 Pinery to -- towards the command centre area to make 16 arrests; correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And that was -- all right. And then 19 they were re-directed because of the person in the kiosk. 20 Now, the information at the time that you 21 had about the kiosk appears, in the command post notes, 22 to be identified by Korosec, but Korosec was not down at 23 the Park area, was he -- or was he? 24 A: No. He would be in the command 25 trailer.
2021 Q: Command post. So, do you have any 2 information as -- as to where Mr. Korosec would have got 3 the information knowing that -- knowing what -- what the 4 -- perhaps you knew what the deployment of people were 5 down in the Park area. 6 Is this the people from the checkpoint 7 calling in to Korosec or... 8 A: In regards to the kiosk? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: It was probably coming in on video 11 from the camera installed in the kiosk. 12 Q: I see. And, where was the camera 13 monitor which Korosec would have got? I don't want to 14 jump ahead. So, you're suggesting, possibly, that the 15 report of the person in the kiosk was picked up by the 16 camera that was in the kiosk, transmitted to, was it 17 Grand Bend or... 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And then, the information would have 20 been transmitted from Grand Bend to Staff Sergeant 21 Korosec at the command post; is that right? 22 A: That -- I believe that's how it would 23 have occurred, yes. 24 Q: All right. So, this would have been 25 based on a video image of some sort of a person in the
2031 kiosk -- inside the kiosk, is that right? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And, I don't believe that there's any 4 evidence -- 5 A: Just -- just for -- 6 Q: Sorry. 7 A: -- clarity, at 20:29 it's Richardson 8 who reports the information about the kiosk, not Korosec, 9 just for accuracy there. 10 Q: Yeah. I'm just -- I -- I see that 11 and I'm just referring to an earlier one at the top of 12 that page on page 74 of the -- 13 A: Oh, correct. 14 Q: -- transcript. 15 A: I'm sorry. 16 Q: At 20:14, yes. 17 A: That's correct, yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Since this report at 20:14 on 22 September 6th, do you have information to us about that 23 video image that was behind this 20:14 report? 24 In other words, was there a person with a 25 weapon in the kiosk?
2041 A: I don't have any information to that 2 effect. 3 Q: All right. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 5 you go on, I'm advised that the blackout occurred in all 6 the Forest, and it might happen again. No other details. 7 We'll let's carry on, see if we can get through. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On the point of -- 9 that My Friend just asked, we do have a video -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- kiosk at or about 12 this time, just before eight o'clock on this eve -- on 13 the evening of September the 6th? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 15 evidence we've seen already, because there was a -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, My Friend and I 17 were just discussing it -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There was a 19 grainy image that we saw of way back of somebody. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, that, no 21 that's -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 23 not it? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That was in the 25 maintenance shed.
2051 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I do not recall if 3 we've played the -- I don't think we have played -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the kiosk video 6 yet. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Well, I wonder, 8 Commissioner if it -- rather than me proceeding further 9 on this question today, I'll ask a bit more in terms of 10 explanation, but probably, as you might anticipate, I'll 11 -- I'll ask if it's possible to have those images 12 played -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Shown at 14 some point in time. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yeah, it -- 16 depending if they're relevant and so -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN -- forth. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 21 Q: Do you happen to know, Deputy 22 Commissioner Carson, whether there, in fact, are recorded 23 video images of the inside of the kiosk -- well, first of 24 all, are these images of the inside of the kiosk? 25 A: That's my understanding.
2061 Q: Right. And do you know if there's 2 images at or around 20:14 when, apparently, Sergeant 3 Korosec reported a person in the kiosk? 4 A: I have to only make the assumption 5 that there are. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I haven't -- I haven't seen them 8 personally. 9 Q: All right. And did you, yourself, 10 view any of those video images when you arrived at the 11 command post on the evening of the 6th? 12 A: No, they were not available to me. 13 Q: Okay. Have you seen any of those 14 video images since then? 15 A: No, no. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I have never seen any evidence that 21 suggests that there was confirmation or suggestion that 22 the person in the kiosk, assuming there was one, had a 23 weapon. 24 Are you aware of any such evidence today? 25 A: I'm not aware of confirmation of
2071 that, no. 2 Q: No. And from what I've seen, I take 3 it the concern on the evening of September 6th, was 4 exactly that, that there could be a person in the kiosk 5 with a weapon, right? 6 A: The concern at the kiosk was that if 7 there was a person in the kiosk with a weapon, would 8 there be line of sight across to the parking lot. 9 Q: All right. And from the evidence 10 that we have available to us today, or that you've seen, 11 is it fair for me to say given what we know now, it 12 appears that this fear was unfounded? 13 A: I don't know if we can say that with 14 all certainty. I mean, there's nothing on the video that 15 I'm aware of. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: That doesn't mean there weren't 18 weapons in there. 19 Q: Well, I guess anything's possible, 20 but right now -- 21 A: No, but you were asking me with any 22 certainty, I -- 23 Q: Yeah. No, no, I'm -- 24 A: So, I mean, in all fairness, the 25 video doesn't capture a three-sixty (360) of all activity
2081 in that kiosk, so it's -- just because the video didn't 2 capture it, it doesn't mean it wasn't possible, that's my 3 only point. 4 Q: But based on the evidence we have -- 5 that you have knowledge of directly or indirectly at this 6 point today, the concern about the person in the kiosk 7 has not turned out to be an actuality, right? 8 There wasn't, in fact, the situation that 9 you were worried about as far as the knowledge and 10 evidence you now have shows? 11 A: Well, the concern I had about the 12 kiosk was the issue of the line of sight. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: That -- that's why the TRU team were 15 deployed to have a look at the kiosk to see if there was 16 a line of sight from the kiosk to the parking lot. 17 There was discussion of whether there was 18 a sand berm there or trees that precluded the line of 19 sight across there. 20 Q: When you say "line of sight" do you 21 mean -- do you mean line of fire as in -- 22 A: Yes. Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And the concern is the 24 possibility that there could be a person in the kiosk who 25 could shoot towards the parking lot, is that what --
2091 A: Correct. 2 Q: That's what the concern was? 3 A: Yeah. Sure, sure. 4 Q: And can I take it that from the video 5 camera anyway, there's been nothing to support that -- 6 the concern that -- the fear that you had at that point? 7 A: As far as I'm aware, that's correct. 8 Q: Now can I -- would I be correct to 9 say that if all the information you had was a report as 10 identified at 20:14 and 20:29 that there was a person in 11 the kiosk, that is not -- that would not have been a 12 sufficient reason to call out TRU in itself, right? 13 A: I'm sorry? 14 Q: If all you had was the report of the 15 person in the kiosk, that's not enough to call out TRU is 16 it? 17 A: Well, it depends on what you want to 18 use them for. I mean if we want to have somebody 19 surreptitiously have a look and see if there's a line of 20 sight which I eluded to, TRU is the best unit to do that 21 work. 22 So it's perfectly appropriate to use TRU 23 to do that. I mean that's what their skill is, is 24 invisible deployment. 25 Q: My understanding or recollection from
2101 reading Project Maple was that a TRU would not be 2 activated for purposes of observation when there was no 3 actual evidence of weapons for instance. 4 Would you not agree that that's going 5 beyond the plan to deploy TRU for observation when there 6 is in fact no evidence yet of weapons? 7 A: I -- I would agree with your last 8 statement but the use of TRU is dependent on the 9 circumstances of the time. If -- if there is no -- I 10 mean if there's a possibility of proving observation 11 without disclosing the -- the point of observation if 12 that's what your intention is, then -- then TRU is the 13 appropriate tool. 14 So I mean there's -- there's different 15 aspects of this so I'm not sure if I'm clear in my point. 16 But... 17 Q: But we don't have here as far as I 18 understand it any evidence yet that there was a weapon in 19 the kiosk. We have, I gather -- 20 A: There was no confirmed information, 21 that's accurate. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: Right. I was trying to determine if 24 there was a line of sight from the kiosk to the parking 25 lot. I wanted someone to go there and have a look and I
2111 wanted them to do it without being observed and TRU team 2 have the appropriate skill to carry out that function. 3 So that is why they were assigned. They are far more 4 trained to do that then an ERT officer. 5 Q: I'm just concerned that we have here 6 in reality, a situation where TRU is being deployed when 7 there's no evidence of weapons. And my understanding of 8 TRU is that they may well be good at observation, but you 9 don't deploy them when there's no weapons -- there's no 10 evidence of weapons. 11 Isn't that correct that TRU is not 12 deployed merely for observation when there's no weapons - 13 - there's no evidence of weapons? 14 Isn't that correct that -- that TRU is 15 not deployed merely for observation when there's no 16 evidence of weapons? 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: Excuse me. My Friend 18 keeps saying, "When there's no evidence of weapons." If 19 he asks the question if there's no evid -- there's no 20 evidence of a weapon in the kiosk at that point in time 21 because Deputy Commissioner Carson's already given some 22 evidence on the issue of weapons, generally, so I'm not 23 sure -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right -- 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- it's a fair
2121 question. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- ask what 3 you mean. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 6 Q: Thank you for that clarification. 7 Two (2) things. There is, I gather, and correct me if 8 I'm wrong, if you have knowledge to the contrary, there 9 is no evidence of weapons in the kiosk at 20:14 or 20:29 10 or thereabouts. 11 And, in fact -- well isn't that true? 12 A: There is evidence of activity in the 13 kiosk. There is no evidence that, in fact, weapons is -- 14 are or are not in the kiosk. 15 I was trying to determine if someone 16 positioned in that kiosk had a line of sight or line of 17 fire, using your terms, that would be able to see the 18 parking lot. TRU team is the best trained unit to 19 invisibly deploy to seek that information out for us. 20 Q: That -- that may well be true, Deputy 21 Commissioner, I am just wondering if there is a danger in 22 deploying TRU in a situation that doesn't involve as far 23 as is known, weapons because of the capacities and 24 training and -- and skills of TRU. 25 It is my understanding -- correct me if
2131 I'm wrong, TRU was not intended to be deployed in 2 situations where there's no evidence of weapons, is that 3 correct? 4 A: TRU is -- is used in -- in high-risk 5 situations. Normally, weapons are involved. If there's 6 a risk of the potential of weapons, you would use TRU. 7 It is certainly appropriate to use TRU in this 8 circumstance and TRU was used as an observer team to 9 cover the crowd management team as well. 10 Q: Well, so is it your evidence that it 11 is appropriate to deploy TRU in a situation -- it is 12 sometimes appropriate to deploy TRU where there is no 13 evidence of weapons in the -- in the area that is the 14 focus at the time? 15 A: We -- we had information that there 16 were weapons available. I was trying to determine if 17 there was line of sight from that kiosk. There was a 18 possibility there were weapons in that kiosk. The only 19 way you're going to confirm it is by having someone take 20 a look. And that certainly is TRU's role. 21 Q: Now -- 22 A: I'm not -- you know, just -- just to 23 clarify it, I'm not going to wait until I'm 100 percent 24 sure that somebody's there with a weapon before I decide 25 whether or not I'm going to utilize TRU. I mean, if the
2141 risk is there, I have to take that into consideration. 2 Q: I can understand that and I'm not 3 suggesting that you have to wait until 100 percent sure, 4 but did you have any evidence that there was -- first of 5 all, you weren't concerned about a, you know, axe handle 6 or a baseball bat in the kiosk, correct? 7 A: I'm sorry? 8 Q: You were not worried about an axe 9 handle or a baseball bat in the kiosk? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. You were worried about a 12 gun in the kiosk? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Or, at least that -- all right. And 15 did you have any evidence from any -- anywhere that there 16 were any guns in the Park on September 6th? 17 A: The report that was received at 20:43 18 hours. 19 Q: Which was after...? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I asked Skinner to have a look at the 24 line of sight relative to the kiosk at 20:37 hours and at 25 20:43 the information came in regarding weapons.
2151 Q: Now, the two (2) are not related, 2 because the information that you are referring to, and 3 I'll get back to that, did not come from TRU people; is 4 that right? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And it came from a different area. 7 It wasn't anywhere near the kiosk, right? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: So and it came later, right? 10 A: Six (6) minutes later I believe. 11 Q: All right. And that was the evidence 12 of Mark Dew based on his interview with Gerald George in 13 Gerald -- sitting in Gerald George's car, right? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 Q: And Gerald George, sorry, did you, 16 did I caught you off? 17 A: I didn't say anything. 18 Q: Okay. Well, obviously, Deputy 19 Commissioner Carson, the concern I'm addressing is that 20 we appear to be deploying TRU and -- well, let me go 21 back. 22 I -- I -- when -- when TRU was redirected 23 towards the Park, my question still is at that point did 24 you have any evidence that there were firearms in the 25 Park on September 6th?
2161 A: No. 2 Q: All right. My concern obviously, 3 Deputy Commissioner Carson, is that TRU appears to be de 4 -- being deployed when there's no evidence of weapons in 5 the area that they are being deployed for and to. 6 And that's quite separate from whether or 7 not they're good at observation. Now you've referred to 8 the report of weapons from Mark Dew. That came after TRU 9 was deployed, right? 10 A: Well, they weren't deployed yet but 11 it was six (6) minutes after Skinner and I had the 12 discussion to send them over there. 13 Q: And just for clarification, they were 14 -- they had been redirected to TOC before that; is that 15 right? 16 A: At 20:37 hours Skinner was directed 17 to send them over to the TOC. We agreed that that's what 18 they would do. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: So you're referring to the command 23 post typed minutes or notes, and that's a reference to 24 the -- the words: 25 "Drop team off in trailer park. Work
2171 their way in and use night vision 2 glasses and observe. What do you 3 think? 4 Ken Skinner: We can drop off at the 5 TOC." 6 Is that right? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: So that's the TRU team -- that's a 9 discussion of where the TRU team should go in the 10 immediate Park area, is that right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Do you know where they were prior to 13 this 20:37 is -- is about 8:37 -- this is a few minutes 14 after you -- and give or take allowance for a bit of time 15 difference in -- in logging tapes or whatever. 16 This is a few minutes after you've arrived 17 at the command post; is that right? 18 A: Skinner just arrived. 19 Q: Skinner just arrived. And you -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar 21 has something that he wants to say. I think we should 22 hear him. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's been 25 standing there for a couple of minutes.
2181 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm sorry, I 2 apologize. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On this line of 4 questioning, I suggest that My Friend refer at page 72 of 5 the log notes to 19:10, the briefing. And some of the 6 comments in there and in fairness to the Witness. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 11 Q: Now, My Friend has referred to the 12 briefing at 19:10 on September 6th on page 72. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And is there anything in your view 15 that's relevant in that -- that comment? In that -- 16 those briefing notes for 19:10? 17 A: Well, just the issue about gunfire 18 the night before. 19 Q: And where do you see that? 20 A: "There will be a two (2) man team in 21 the dark. John Carson information 22 received that gunfire is reported. 23 Auto fire clarified gunfire." 24 That's -- that's the issue from -- that 25 occurred the night before.
2191 Q: And the two (2) man team is what? 2 A: It's an observer team that will be 3 put down in the cottage area to keep an eye on activity. 4 Q: Is that a TRU team? 5 A: No. That's a -- we're talking about 6 ERT teams there. 7 Q: All right. So, that's not TRU? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: All right. It's an observer team 10 from ERT? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Now, and there were observer teams 13 from ERT placed down in the beach area, we discussed this 14 earlier, around the 6th as well? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: In the evening of the 6th, right? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Now, obviously, a potential question 19 is: Why couldn't you use those ERT teams for observing 20 the kiosk when you'd used them in that area earlier that 21 evening? 22 A: Right. Could I have used them? I 23 could have. There's no -- there's absolutely no reason 24 why you can't, but TRU is trained, has a higher skill 25 level and when you're talking about invisible deployment
2201 TRU is -- is a better tool. They just have more 2 experience and... 3 Q: The concern I have, Deputy 4 Commissioner Carson, is that, you know, you earlier 5 deployed some ERT teams for observation in the night and 6 as you just say there's no reason you couldn't have used 7 them, but you decided to use TRU instead. 8 And I'm wondering if it's a case of you 9 deployed TRU because they were there, they'd arrived and 10 you were making some use of them. Why -- why -- why -- 11 A: TRU was going to be used as a cover 12 team for -- for the crowd management. So, they're -- 13 they're going to be required there, so it's -- they're 14 the best tool. Get in and have a look at the kiosk and 15 provide that information back and they're going to be 16 deployed in that same area to provide observation for the 17 crowd management team. 18 Q: So, are you saying that the decision 19 had been made to use the crowd management unit at the 20 time at -- at 20:37 the decision had been made to use the 21 CMU; is that right? 22 A: When I got back and had the 23 discussion with Inspector Linton, we decided we would use 24 the crowd management team. 25 Q: And do I see that decision in the --
2211 the command centre notes? 2 A: I don't believe you do. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: So according to these notes, you 8 arrive at 20:29, at 8:29; is that right? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And so what you're telling me is that 11 although it doesn't show in these -- these notes, by 12 20:37 a decision has been made to use the crowd 13 management unit? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: I -- my first question is, since -- 16 well, first of all, there was no plan in Project Maple 17 plan to use CMU at all, is that right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And in fact, on the morning of the 20 5th, you'd had a conversation with Lacroix and he was 21 asking you on the phone in a recording we played, about 22 CMU and you told him there were no plans to use a CMU 23 formation; is that right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: So, we have here, then, a decision
2221 made to deploy or -- or -- yeah, to -- to form up or 2 deploy CMU, which is completely unplanned and there's no 3 mention in the notes of that decision even being made. 4 Why is that, do you know? 5 A: Quite frankly, I couldn't tell you 6 why that isn't. I'm not sure if the scribe wasn't right 7 at hand when Linton and I were having our discussion or 8 not. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: There was -- I anticipate the 13 evidence will be of Detective Sergeant Wright that he 14 favoured the use of the CMU, the crowd management unit. 15 Do you have any information on that? 16 A: I -- I don't know if that's fact or 17 not. 18 Q: All right. And I believe we -- the 19 evidence will show that, according to Detective Sergeant 20 Wright, to his knowledge, he was the first one with -- to 21 come up with the idea of using the CMU? 22 A: That's possible. 23 Q: It's possible. I just -- I just want 24 to see if you can illuminate that possibility. 25 Was Mark Wright at the command post when
2231 you arrived? I -- it would appear that he was, right? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: And did you have any discussions with 4 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright in the time period shortly 5 after you arrived at the command post, with or without 6 other people present? 7 A: Other than what's in the command post 8 minutes, I can't be sure if I had a personal, one-on-one, 9 so to speak, with him or not. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: I know I went in and had a -- 12 certainly had a discussion with Inspector Linton. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN A moment's 17 indulgence, Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 19 want to rush you, Mr. Klippenstein. I was just wondering 20 if you're getting near the end. You indicated yesterday 21 that you would finish and I'm just wondering if you're 22 getting near the end of your examination? 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I intended to 24 address that. And I think, originally, Mr. Orkin on our 25 behalf estimated our cross-examination at three (3) days
2241 more or less, and I expected yesterday I'd finish before 2 three (3) days. But in all honesty I suspect I will not 3 finish today and -- and perhaps go an hour or two (2) 4 tomorrow, if -- if that's not a problem. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 6 indicated yesterday, as recently as yesterday, that you 7 thought you would be finished before the end of -- 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yeah -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- today, 10 actually you thought you would be finished earlier in the 11 day, but that's not the case now, so... 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN That appears not 13 to be the case. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Some of 15 these -- some of these areas -- I don't know, as I said, 16 some -- I don't want to rush you, but some of these 17 questions you have asked in different contexts. 18 I mean, some of the questions that you're 19 asking I've heard them asked before. I've heard them 20 answered before, in a different context. So I just would 21 remind you that you're approaching your limit of three 22 (3) days and if you say you'll finish tomorrow morning -- 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Hmm hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in an 25 hour or two, I suppose that would be fine.
2251 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Hmm hmm. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 3 going to rush you, we're not going to cut you short, but 4 I just would like to know, I think everybody would for 5 their own planning and from where we go from here. 6 So if you're saying now that you expect to 7 be finished an hour or two (2) into tomorrow? 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes, now I -- I 9 -- I -- part of the reality, Commissioner, is that 10 there's been some information coming out from this 11 Witness which, to my knowledge -- which wasn't in any of 12 the documents, to my knowledge. 13 And indeed, the example that I would use 14 is the fact that the CMU decision of deployment had been 15 made in this time period when it doesn't appear. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN With respect, 18 that's -- 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Well, let me 20 justify it going over to three (3) days a bit, but 21 let's -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, that evidence 23 came out in-chief. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Came out 25 somewhere.
2261 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That I -- I explored 2 all of this decision in-chief. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, well-- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's not new evidence, 5 it was all in-chief. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think some 7 things came out -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that you 10 didn't know about it. I think there was some -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no trouble with 12 My Friend finishing -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, and I 14 think he did -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- I just -- taking 16 whatever time -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But that evidence came 19 out in-chief with respect to this scene. And I went 20 through that in great detail. 21 I can tell you that I anticipate the 22 evidence will be just on one (1) subject. We've -- we've 23 isolated where the TRU team trucks were, we think, when 24 the call was cancelled and they returned to Pinery Park. 25 And it's the notes of James Irvine, Inquiry Document
2271 1002146 and a call at 8:30 and they were near Northville. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And apparently, the 6 same thing's in Mr. Beauchesne's... 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Well, 8 we'll adjourn at half past 4:00, is that all right, Mr. 9 Klippenstein? 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm totally in 11 your hands. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We usually 13 adjourn at 4:30, in fairness -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to the 16 Witness who's been -- 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 19 testifying since 9:00 a.m. So we'll adjourn at 4:30 -- 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and we'll 22 continue tomorrow morning -- 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 25 carry on.
2281 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: Do you recall -- do you have any 5 information about whether Detective Sergeant Wright in 6 fact suggested a crowd management unit formation at that 7 time approximately? 8 A: I -- I have no information one (1) 9 way or the other. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: So if -- to follow your -- your 14 statement that at 20:37 by that time the decision had 15 been made to deploy the crowd management unit and so they 16 were suiting up I take it in the garage or something? 17 A: That's fair, yes. 18 Q: Now at that point did you have any 19 evidence that -- I'm struggling, Deputy Commissioner 20 Carson, because I'm trying to understand exactly what 21 evidence was before you in terms of -- of the risks that 22 were being supposedly addressed. 23 Now you did not have any evidence at that 24 point that there was any threat to the cottages that 25 night, correct?
2291 A: Correct. 2 Q: And you had no evidence of weapons at 3 the sandy parking lot area that night, correct? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: But firearms, to be specific is what 6 we understood I believe, right? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Yeah. And you didn't have any 9 complaint from any civilian on the night of September 6th 10 about specifically damage or fear on that -- in the 11 parking lot area for September 6th at all at that point, 12 right? 13 A: Other than the one (1) damaged 14 vehicle. 15 Q: That's right. So what we have here, 16 Deputy Commissioner Carson, is we have the CMU crowd 17 management unit forming up, we have TRU deployed as an 18 observation team and yet we have that evening no threat, 19 no evidence of threat to the cottages, no evidence of 20 firearms and no civilian complaints that evening; is that 21 right? 22 A: We have the one (1) complaint of the 23 damaged vehicle. 24 Q: Right. Well, that -- that -- was 25 that the only complaint? That was the only complaint.
2301 In fact that complaint was made to a 2 checkpoint near the Park and the complaint was a dent to 3 a car; is that right? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And the notes of the officer at the 6 checkpoint who observed the car at that point, identified 7 in his notes at that time that the dent appeared to be 8 about a four hundred dollar ($400) dent, right? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: So I would imagine -- well first of 11 all, you didn't know at this point that the complaint 12 from the civilian was a four hundred dollar ($400) dent, 13 right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Now, but Inspector Linton certainly 16 knew that one of the officers at the checkpoints was 17 interviewing that complainant and that a report was being 18 prepared, right? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Sandler...? 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: Commissioner, I 22 understand the latitude that -- that's given here. I 23 really do, but there's also a point at which there's a 24 certain fairness that has to kick in for a Witness whose 25 now on the stand on his fourteenth day --
2311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- with lots more 3 cross-examination to follow. 4 And, with great respect to My Friend, I 5 believe this subject matter has been covered at least 6 four (4) times. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I know 8 it has been covered, I know it's covered in a different 9 context, perhaps, but I know it has been covered. So, 10 I'm not sure where you're going again with this evidence. 11 All of us here, I think, are anxious to 12 have you have as much latitude as you need to complete 13 your examination, but I don't think any of us would like 14 to sit and hear evidence again and again if we've already 15 heard it; it's already on the record. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Well, I 17 apologize if -- if -- if it's already on the record that 18 the -- the riot squad and the TRU team were deployed 19 without any threat to the cottage and without any 20 evidence of weapons and without any civilian complaints 21 other than a four hundred dollar ($400) complaint, that's 22 news to me. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, you can't -- 24 that's just not fair. He's -- and he's gone through it a 25 lot. He's acknowledged -- he said to Mr. Klippenstein,
2321 he said in-chief, what the decision -- the -- the factors 2 that he bore in mind. He's agreed that as he 3 subsequently learned, that some of those were wrong and 4 it's not fair for My Friend to say the four hundred 5 (400)... 6 His evidence was that he thought that 7 there was a car with the baseball bats. We now know it 8 wasn't and - and it's not fair for -- My -- My Friend has 9 to take him to and distinguish between what he believed 10 the night of and the actual -- and -- and -- and you can 11 say that that car now turns out to be a rock, which we've 12 heard quite a few times and I took the Witness through 13 it, too. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 15 going to get through this a lot faster if we let Mr. 16 Klippenstein finish his examination. 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: That was the 18 point I was attempting -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- to help with, 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: We're getting 24 very far away from the actual question that Mr. 25 Klippenstein asked, which was: Did Inspector Linton, you
2331 know, have knowledge that a report was being prepared? I 2 think we already know that he asked for it be sent down. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We 4 heard that. We heard that. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Now, whether or 6 not Inspect -- Inspector Carson as he then was, knew 7 that, I think, is the logical question that is going to 8 come out of the answer one (1) way or the other in this 9 unrecorded conversation that he apparently had about this 10 time with -- with Inspector Linton. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I want 12 to let Mr. Klippenstein ask any questions that he thinks 13 are relevant that haven't already been asked and that's 14 where we are. So, carry on. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: If the -- if the 16 question that I believe provoked this -- this detour has, 17 in fact, been asked I apologize and I certainly would 18 appreciate being shown that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 24 Q: We have played a tape before in my 25 cross-examination of you between Detective Sergeant
2341 Wright and Mr. McCabe on -- that was apparently at about 2 20:19 on the evening of the 6th. 3 And do you recall Mr. McCabe and Mr. 4 Wright having a conversation at that time? In other 5 words, were you -- were you aware that -- that Mr. Wright 6 -- or, was Mr. Wright involved, to your knowledge, in a 7 phone conversation with Mr. McCabe around that time, 8 20:19 that evening? 9 A: At 20:19 I wasn't at the command post 10 yet. 11 Q: All right. Now, the -- the 12 conversation is fairly lengthy, the one that he had with 13 -- that Mr. Wright had with Mr. McCabe. 14 And I don't know, it's in theory possible 15 that Mr. Wright was still on that phone call when you 16 arrived, but do you have knowledge of that one (1) way or 17 the other? 18 A: I don't -- I don't recall being aware 19 of that. I don't -- I don't recall him being on the 20 phone with Mr. McCabe when I arrived. That doesn't -- 21 doesn't ring any bell. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: But I can't say that to any certainty 24 that's the case, so. 25 Q: Now Detective Sergeant Wright was at
2351 the command post when you arrived; have I got that right? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Yes. And since he was your 4 assistant, you probably spoke with him very -- and, in 5 fact, it was partly Detective Sergeant Wright's call that 6 instigated your return to the command post, right? 7 A: That's fair but -- but the reality of 8 it is Inspector Linton is the senior officer on -- at the 9 command post. When I came back to the command post it 10 was him that I -- I would want to deal with first and 11 foremost. 12 Q: Sure. But do you recall -- did you 13 see or speak with Detective Sergeant Wright shortly after 14 you arrived? 15 A: I -- I can't confirm one (1) way or 16 the other about that. But I know we've talked about this 17 -- I found it earlier where him and I spoke specifically 18 about him giving evidence the next day. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: That's in this -- somewhere here I 21 know it indicates that we stepped outside to have that 22 discussion. 23 Q: Right. That would appear to be at 24 20:57. 25 A: That's correct, yes, at the top of
2361 page 77. 2 Q: Now I -- I played to you some 3 excerpts from the tape of Detective Sergeant Wright and 4 Mr. McCabe, in which Mr. Wright made some comments which 5 I was suggesting to you were inappropriate. 6 And those comments appear to have been 7 made before you arrived on -- at the command post. And I 8 just want to know how those fit in with your situation 9 because frankly, you -- you said when you arrived at the 10 command post, it was chaos. 11 And according to this tape of the phone 12 call and this is in Volume I of the cross-examination 13 materials we provided to you and the transcripts were 14 provided to -- to My Friends, Mr. Wright is saying: 15 "Well, they're moving, they're coming 16 out for a fight down to the road so 17 we're taking all the marines down now." 18 And a little later Mr. Wright says: 19 "We got four (4) ERT teams and a TRU 20 team and two (2) canine units going 21 down there to do battle right now." 22 And a little later Mr. Wright says: 23 "We're going to war now." 24 Now, if Mr. Wright is in the command post 25 saying these sorts of things to Mr. McCabe, when you --
2371 by the time you arrived at the command post, is this an 2 accurate description of even metaphorically of the 3 situation at the command post at the time when you 4 arrive? 5 A: I'm -- I'm not sure I understand what 6 you're asking, sir. 7 Q: Well, you've said the command post 8 was chaos and -- and before you arrived we have Mr. 9 Wright I gather from the command post speaking with the 10 lawyer and talking about "We're taking all the Marines 11 down. We got -- we're going down to do battle. We're 12 going to war now." 13 That sounds worse than chaos. That sounds 14 like there is now unstoppable momentum to use a very 15 large degree of -- of force against the protesters in the 16 Park. 17 When you arrived at the command post, did 18 you actually consider saying to everybody, stop, sit 19 down, everybody stop and we're going to look at the 20 situation and everybody go home except the basic people 21 who were supposed to be there in the first place; did you 22 consider that? 23 A: When I arrived at the command post, I 24 went in and I spoke directly with Inspector Linton to 25 discuss how we're going to manage the situation and to
2381 determine how we could best handle the situation as he 2 was trying to deal with it. 3 As a result of our discussion, it was 4 decided that we were going to mobilize the crowd 5 management unit and deal with it that way. And that is 6 subsequent to his initial call out of TRU just to simply 7 use them as an arrest team. 8 Q: Did you actually -- did either you or 9 Inspector Linton -- well, let me ask you, did you 10 consider the possibility -- the possibility that the ERT 11 team should be disbanded and the -- the day shift 12 should be sent home? 13 A: The discussion was about what have we 14 got here and how do we deal with it. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And at what point did you leave the 20 command post and go to the -- to the TOC centre? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I see an entry at 21:22 that says: 25 "John Carson indicated to Kent Skinner
2391 and Dale Linton that John Carson and 2 Kent Skinter -- Skinner will go to 3 TOC." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Correct. And, that's -- that's 6 approximately the right time, I believe, because I -- I 7 do have a note that I arrived at the TOC at 21:45. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So it would have taken me ten (10) 10 minutes to get down there. 11 Q: And so, it was -- it was -- the -- 12 the fact that you went down to TOC showed that there 13 would now be as of about 19 -- about 9:22 p.m. a major 14 operation in the Park area using CMU and TRU? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Correct. So that was a form of 17 recognition or commitment on the part of the overall team 18 that this was a "go," right? 19 A: Well, I -- I had to be there in order 20 to give them permission to move. 21 Q: I see. Okay. 22 And did you have -- this was at 9:22, is 23 that right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Now, at this point I gather you've
2401 also heard evidence about cars and buses and dump trucks, 2 things like that, right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And that was part of the information 5 that was coming to you as -- as well, right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Now we heard evidence from one (1) of 8 the protesters, Marlin Simon, I believe, that around this 9 time, around eight o'clock, give or take, he and one (1) 10 or two (2) other people were listening on a police 11 scanner and actually heard something that he believed was 12 a mobilization of OPP in response to the Gerald George 13 stone incident. 14 And he also testified that he immediately 15 drove up to the Army Base to see if he could find people 16 to come back to the Park because he was anticipating a -- 17 a major police operation in the Park area. 18 And I then see notes in some of these 19 reports that -- to the command post that there are cars 20 driving from the Army Base to the Park. 21 Now is it possible that some of these 22 reports of cars that caused you concern were, in fact, 23 themselves a response to the radio calls calling out 24 police? 25 A: I mean, I don't know.
2411 Q: You don't know? 2 A: I mean it -- 3 Q: Have you -- 4 A: Quite -- quite frankly, I didn't 5 anticipate or I guess, appreciate, that any and all of 6 the calls would actually be monitored or -- or not. 7 You know, in hindsight, we certainly could 8 have provided our transmissions in another fashion that 9 would have precluded the -- the understanding of some of 10 the calls. 11 Q: But if, in fact, Mr. Simons evidence 12 is -- is accurate, it raises the possibility that some of 13 the information which you took into account here and some 14 of the events the -- the vehicle travel, were in fact, a 15 response to some of the initial radio calls about police 16 responding to the stone throwing incident, right? 17 A: Well, if that's what he said, I guess 18 that's what he thought. You know, I can't disagree with 19 what he said. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 21 don't know if you were planning on -- on ending around -- 22 at 4:30. This is a break in my -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 24 moving on to another point now? 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yeah.
2421 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then I 2 think this would be as good a point as any, if you're 3 starting some new right now. 4 It's 4:25, we'll adjourn now until nine 5 o'clock tomorrow morning. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. 7 8 (WITNESS RETIRES) 9 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Sorry, sorry, 11 Commissioner. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 14 I didn't see you, Mr. Henderson. I didn't see you, Mr. 15 Henderson. 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Sorry, 17 Commissioner. It's nice to see someone else asleep at 18 the switch other than myself. 19 There was one (1) matter we were going to 20 deal with -- there was one matter we were going to deal 21 with at the end of the day today, and it considers the 22 order of further cross-examination. 23 And if I can describe the situation, quite 24 simply. Like -- like yourself, yesterday at noon, I did 25 not appreciate what the order was going to be or what the
2431 -- I'm sorry, not the order, but what the timing would 2 be. And there was a bare possibility that Mr. George and 3 I might be up tomorrow. 4 As it happens, I have a conflicting 5 engagement in Ottawa tomorrow, and Mr. George has a 6 preliminary. So in light of what we knew then, we asked 7 Mr. Horton if he would be willing to move ahead of us in 8 order. And he agreed, quite graciously, on condition 9 that if -- if we were going to make the change and he was 10 going to invest some time in that last night, that we not 11 switch back as things go back and forth. 12 He didn't want to be the yo-yo on the -- 13 on the order list. 14 So I agreed to that. I spoke to all of 15 the Counsel who have yet to cross-examine this morning, 16 they all agreed. Mr. Ross and Mr. Scullion made the 17 further request that Mr. Horton go ahead of them, too, so 18 they could have the equal benefit of his prodigious 19 skills before we wade in -- wade into combat ourselves. 20 So that -- that would be the situation -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- going forward. 23 It doesn't appear to inconvenience everyone. 24 Everyone has agreed, and if that's 25 agreeable with you, sir, that -- we'll leave it that way.
2441 And Mr. George and I can leave today with a clear 2 conscience. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 Just a minute, I see Mr. Sandler having something to say. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm sorry, can I just 9 enquire about something, because Mr. Horton has requested 10 that the OPP accommodate his cross-examination and bring 11 back some equipment items? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: And I'm not clear 14 whether it's expected now that Mr. Horton will be on 15 tomorrow or not. So perhaps we could clarify -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- that, because I 18 believe Mr. Rosenthal will be going ahead of Mr. 19 Horton -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Rosenthal is next. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal will be 23 the next -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he might 25 take -- he might take the balance of the day.
2451 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Rosenthal 2 expects to take the balance of the day. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I should just put 4 on the record, I expect to take more than the balance of 5 the day, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, at 7 least the balance of the day, let's put it that way, so 8 you won't be reached -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Horton won't be 10 reached nor Mr. -- until Monday. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I just 12 want to make it clear that there was no mention of 13 prodigious skills in any of our discussions. It was all 14 around time tabling, so... 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you 16 agree with it. 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: I don't want to 18 raise anyone's expectations. It was all -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- for the 21 convenience of the parties. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, June 9th at 9:00 a.m.
2461 --- Upon adjourning at 4:28 p.m. 2 3 4 5 Certified Correct 6 7 8 9 10 ______________________ 11 Dustin Warnock 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25