11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 6th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (Np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 235 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-461 Document 1002995 Coordinated 4 Investigation Team (CIT) 5 organizational Chart, Sept 02/'95, 6 11:33, OPP DHQ Chatham, Fax 7 519-352-8591, P. 14 14 8 P-462 Document 1000445 Taped interview of 9 acting detective Staff Sergeant Mark 10 Wright, September 12/'95 47 11 P-463 Document 2000596 and Document 2000604 12 pages 1 to 29, command post logger 13 synopsis September 06/'95 and transcript 87 14 P-464 Excerpts from transcript document 15 2000604 September 6/'95 20:19, Wright 16 calls out to McCabe and audio tape 88 17 P-465 Excerpts from Document 1002419, Exhibit 18 P-426 pages 73-74, 19:50 hrs to 20:29 hrs.104 19 P-466 Transcript and CD of excerpts of radio 20 transmissions at 19:50 hrs, Sept 06/95 123 21 P-467 Document 1011152 excerpts from Honourable 22 Mr. Justice Daudlin's Ontario Court 23 (General Division) proceedings September 24 07/'95 126 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-468 Examination for Discovery excerpt 4 of Mark Wright Pages 150 to 159 5 June 28/'01 Ontario Superior Court 6 of Justice, Toronto, court file 7 No. 96-CU-99569 138 8 P-469 Document 100016 excerpts from transcript 9 of phone call between Linton and 10 Parkin 21:41 hours. 147 11 P-470 Document 2003683 statement of Inspector 12 D. Linton, September 09/'95, 10:00 13 hours, pages 1060 to 1065 192 14 P-471 Document 100886 page 1059 to 1065 15 handwritten notes of Mark Wright 16 September 06, 06:30-16:44. 231 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning. 10 11 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Deputy 14 Commissioner. 15 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 17 morning, Deputy. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we start today, 19 I just wanted to pass on our best wishes to Andy Orkin. 20 Andy was involved in an accident on Thursday afternoon 21 and I understand is okay. He's suspected to have broken 22 some ribs. He's probably watching us now. But hopefully 23 they haven't, because they're very painful but we wanted 24 to all wish him a speedy recovery and see him back here 25 soon.
91 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 2 all of us, a speedy recovery to Andrew Orkin. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, it's -- Mr. 4 Klippenstein is going to... 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, just 6 before you do, Ms. Jones had something that she wanted to 7 do, is she here? I had forgotten it -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- at the 10 end of the week last week, I just remembered it as I was 11 driving out. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, that's fine. 13 It's -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's okay? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 16 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: She's finished 17 her cross-examination. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. The -- she's 19 finished her cross-examination. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Mr. Klippenstein...? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning,
101 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 morning. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: First of all, 5 I'd like to thank you very much and -- and My Friend Mr. 6 Millar for the thoughtfulness extended to Mr. Orkin. And 7 it's always a reminder to us of the fragility of our 8 well-being sometimes and your thoughtfulness is very much 9 appreciated on Mr. Orkin and all our behalf. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 12 Q: Good morning, Deputy Commissioner 13 Carson. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: I believe we've met before and I 16 believe you may recall I am the legal counsel for the 17 Estate of Dudley George and the George Family? 18 A: Yes, of course. 19 Q: Commissioner and -- and Deputy 20 Commissioner Carson, I've prepared a binder of documents 21 which I might refer to in the course of my 22 cross-examination. I've provided -- provided copies to 23 My Friends and to -- to Deputy Commissioner Carson. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I don't propose to
111 make or request that the binder be made an exhibit now, 2 but perhaps during the course of my references I may ask 3 for documents to be made exhibits. Some of them already 4 are, and it's -- the purpose of this is basically for the 5 convenience of you, Commissioner, and the Witness and 6 other Counsel. 7 So, hopefully it will be of assistance. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 13 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, I'd like 14 to begin by just getting a bit of a sense or confirming 15 your role in the events of September of 1995 as an 16 incident commander and hopefully in doing so to be able 17 to focus my questions better from -- from where you're 18 at. 19 Obviously, you were the incident commander 20 for what happened on September 4th and -- and the 21 succeeding days, on behalf of the OPP, correct? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And I take it you had, in some way, 24 an overall responsibility for what happened from the OPP 25 point of view in the preparation for and during September
121 4th, 5th, and 6th; is that -- is that fair? 2 A: I was -- I was assigned as the 3 incident commander in May of 1993 when the occupiers 4 first went into the rifle ranges and continued as 5 incident commander throughout September the 6th of '95. 6 Q: And what I was trying to get at in my 7 question, does that mean, for purposes of me asking you 8 questions, that you had some degree of overall 9 responsibility for OPP operations there? 10 A: That's fair. 11 Q: And you also had a variety of 12 officers working with you and there's a name that's come 13 up sometimes and I'll ask some clarification about that 14 as well for purposes of my questions, I believe it's 15 Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright -- 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: -- was -- and My Friend Mr. Millar, 18 went through some of these aspects with you. He's 19 identified as -- as the assistant to the incident 20 commander; is that right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And he -- generally speaking, what 23 was his role as assistant to the incident commander? 24 A: Well, Detective Sergeant Wright had 25 been the detective sergeant responsible for supervising
131 criminal operations in Lambton County and, as a result of 2 that, he assisted me throughout much of the Ipperwash 3 activities from '93 through '95. 4 And in the incident in regards to the 5 planning of the incident specific to Labour Day weekend 6 the 4th through the 6th as -- as the assistant he -- he 7 would be one (1) of the conduits through which 8 information move through the various managers that were 9 involved in the event. 10 Q: And if I could refer you to a diagram 11 that My Friend Mr. Millar I believe put with -- to you a 12 few days ago, in the document binder that I've put before 13 you. 14 And I wonder, Commissioner, if I should 15 identify this binder in some way, I could just call it 16 the George Family document binder or -- or mark it "A" or 17 I'll just refer to it and -- and without any formal label 18 if that doesn't cause a problem. So whatever -- whatever 19 -- I'm in your hands here. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I suggest that My 21 Friend simply refer to the document that's in it. And 22 this particular document is a document that we did look 23 at but if My Friend simply refers to the document, the 24 document number and it might be easier to assign it where 25 it does not already have a number -- a document and
141 exhibit number. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 3 that's helpful. I just want to make the paper shuffling 4 a little less burdensome. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: At Tab 2 of that document binder 8 there's an excerpt from Project Maple, I believe, is that 9 right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And that is a reproduction of an 12 organizational chart that was included as part of the 13 planning for the Labour Day weekend incident? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And I wonder if I could have that 16 marked as a separate exhibit for convenience? 17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-461. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-461. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-461: Document 1002995 Coordinated 22 Investigation Team (CIT) 23 organizational Chart, Sept 24 02/'95, 11:33, OPP DHQ 25 Chatham, Fax 519-352-8591,
151 P. 14. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: That being the page entitled "Co- 5 ordinated Investigation Team (CIT) Organizational chart 6 from Project Maple," is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I just wanted to look at the role 9 of Detective Sergeant Wright because I will want to be 10 asking some questions about some of the events that both 11 yourself and he overlapped with or in. 12 And I see that on Exhibit P-461, Detective 13 Sergeant Wright is identified as the commander assistant 14 in -- in the box on the flow chart, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And he seems to have a -- sort of 17 flow through role, according to the lines anyway, to just 18 about all aspects of the -- of the operation; is that 19 right? 20 A: That's fair, yes. 21 Q: And I believe his title is -- is 22 Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Wright. Could you 23 clarify for me those -- those labels? "Acting" for 24 instance? 25 A: What an acting detective staff
161 sergeant is? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Well, his -- his confirmed rank was 4 detective sergeant. He was fulfilling the role of a 5 crime supervisor for the then Number 1 District 6 Headquarters which supervises -- the position supervises 7 criminal operations for Lambton, Kent, and Essex 8 Counties. 9 So he was an acting detective staff 10 sergeant fulfilling a role of supervising the -- the 11 crime operations for the three (3) counties. So at the 12 time he was in an acting rank. 13 Q: Thank you, that's helpful. Now I -- 14 I propose to ask you a number of questions about what we 15 believe may be a fairly significant aspect or time period 16 of the incident of September 4 to 6. And that is the 17 period on September 6th approximately when you left your 18 incident commander role and went off duty. 19 And from our review of the evidence that's 20 come out and the evidence we anticipated, it appears to 21 us, to my clients, that there was some significant 22 changes in the police mode of operation at that point. 23 And I want to ask some questions about 24 that because we believe it's significant. And I'm 25 talking about the period from approximately 6:30 or 7:30
171 to approximately eight o'clock or a little bit 2 thereafter. 3 However, now you were off shift at about 4 that time; is that right? 5 A: I believe it was around 7:00 p.m. 6 that I left. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Approximately, I can -- the notes 9 reflect it. 10 Q: Okay. And you -- you ended up back 11 in the command post at Forest sometime thereafter. Was 12 that some time after eight o'clock; is that right? 13 A: Yes, if you like, I can check the 14 command post minutes. There's -- 15 Q: I'll get to that in detail, perhaps, 16 in a little while. 17 A: Yes. But I left -- I left for 18 dinner, yes. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I left for the evening, actually. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Sorry, you left for the evening? 24 A: I went off duty for the evening. 25 Q: Oh, were you planning on coming back
181 later that evening, or... 2 A: No, I had no intentions of coming 3 back. I think my evidence reflects that I had intended 4 to meet with Mark Wright at the motel later to discuss 5 his attendance at the application for the injunction the 6 following morning. 7 Q: Right. Now, Detective Sergeant 8 Wright was -- was also on shift with you for most of 9 September 6th; is that right? 10 A: Yes, he was the day shift -- 11 Q: Yeah -- 12 A: -- individual. 13 Q: And was he -- when you say "day 14 shift", he -- his shift would basically coincide with 15 yours; is that right? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And so he would be your assistant 18 during your shift? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: However, it appears to me from the 21 evidence and anticipated evidence that he actually 22 continued in the -- working in the area around the 23 Ipperwash Park and the command post for a period after 24 you'd left on September 6th; is that right? 25 A: Right.
191 Q: And I'll get into this in more 2 detail, but it appears that he was assigned by you to go 3 to a particular meeting around supper time or dinner 4 time, 6:00-ish of September 6th and went there; and so 5 continued working after you'd left the shift. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Now, I do want to ask some questions 8 about the events that he, and I guess both -- and you as 9 well, were involved in after you left the shift. 10 So I just want to clarify again in more 11 detail, Detective Sergeant's working relationship with 12 you. 13 And I see some mention of that in the 14 minutes of the meeting of September 1 of 1995 in London, 15 which was a large planning meeting for -- for the 16 operation for operation Maple. That's at Tab 3 of the 17 document binder I've provided and I believe it's Document 18 Inquiry Number 3000574. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's Exhibit 421. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And I believe 21 that's Inquiry Exhibit 421, thank you, Mr. Millar. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 24 Q: And do you have that in front of you? 25 It's at Tab 2?
201 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: I notice on page 2 of that document, 3 although the pages aren't numbered, on the fifth full 4 paragraph, it mentions, quote, "Mark is John's 5 assistant", close quote; right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I go down further five (5) 8 paragraphs and that paragraph reads, quote: 9 "All the ERT teams fall under Korosec. 10 The team leaders can communicate with 11 each other, but Wright and Carson have 12 to know what is going on." 13 Period, close quote. Do you see that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, I take that to mean that there 16 is a fairly tight communication web between yourself and 17 Detective Sergeant Wright; correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then from the other team leaders 20 to you and Detective Sergeant Wright? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And then I drop down two (2) more 23 paragraphs and it says, quote: 24 "Unit leaders cannot be doing things 25 either unless you come through the
211 commander or assistant commander." 2 Close quote. Now, the assistant commander 3 there is, again, Mark Wright; is that right? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, is it fair to say that Detective 10 Sergeant Wright had a fair bit of delegated 11 responsibility and authority delegated from you? 12 A: What Detective Staff Sergeant Wright 13 had was a lot of knowledge. What's important in his role 14 is that he was aware of the events of the past two (2) 15 years. And -- and other than myself, he was probably the 16 single person who had as much continuous involvement in 17 the activities at Ipperwash since 1993. 18 So, did he have delegated authority? He 19 did not -- I would suggest he did not have authority to 20 make changes to the plan, but he knew the plan and he 21 knew what my expectations were. 22 So, I mean, I'm just one (1) person and I 23 needed someone else who had as much information as 24 possible to assist all of the unit commanders as quickly 25 as possible.
221 Q: So, when you -- when you refer to 2 "delegated" -- my question of -- by delegated authority, 3 he -- he didn't have authority as such, but because he 4 was working very closely with you, he would -- would help 5 you in implementing decisions and strategies and so 6 forth? 7 A: Very much so. We would -- we would 8 certainly discuss and come to some conclusion and he may 9 be responsible for carrying out whatever the decision 10 might be. 11 Q: Okay. Now, I -- I am going to ask 12 you some questions about, as I said, the period when 13 after you had gone for -- for dinner that night and there 14 was some continued involvement by -- by Detective 15 Sergeant Wright based on the -- the close relationship 16 that -- that you described. 17 It is a close relationship, that's fair? 18 Is that right? 19 A: That's -- that's fair, sure. 20 Q: Now, to go back to the period I 21 mentioned, would you be able to confirm either from 22 memory or your notes when you left, approximately, your 23 work that day? I believe you mentioned about 6:00 -- 24 6:00 -- 25 A: I believe I mentioned about 7:00.
231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said 2 about 7:00. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 5 Q: 7:00, today. I'm just wondering if 6 you'd mentioned something a little different earlier, I - 7 - I can't remember that's why I'm asking, if that's easy, 8 just so I can confirm both for myself and yourself a 9 starting point for that -- for that scenario. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Sorry, I don't mean to put you on the 14 spot, I should have had that -- that information for you. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Apparently, there's notes at 19:10 19 hours -- 7:10 p.m. that I provided some information to 20 the briefing that Inspector Linton was leading, so I 21 would have left around that time. 22 Q: Okay. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The reference is 24 Exhibit P-426, Inquiry Document 1002419, page 72. 25
241 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Millar. So, 3 that was the time that you made a comment in a briefing 4 session; is that right? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And, that would have happened in the 7 command post at Forest or... 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. So, your thinking is you 10 probably left shortly after that; is that fair? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Okay. And then you went off work 13 then? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: As I understand it, I -- the -- the 16 evidence I -- I anticipate hearing from Detective 17 Sergeant Wright and others was that around that time, 18 Detective Sergeant Wright had been asked by you to go and 19 attend a meeting of non-Native property owners and 20 renters around the Park area. 21 And he was asked to attend there by 22 yourself; is that right? 23 A: He did attend a meeting right near 24 where the TOC site was at the MNR parking lot. I can't, 25 from memory, be sure if I asked him or how -- how we --
251 how we came aware of that -- became aware of that 2 meeting. But he certainly attended on our behalf. 3 Q: I anticipate that the -- the evidence 4 will show that Detective Sergeant Wright's description of 5 that in the discover process earlier, was that yourself, 6 Inspector Carson, had got word that there was going to be 7 some kind of a meeting of the residents of Ipperwash who 8 owned seasonal and permanent residences along East 9 Parkway Road in the area around CFB Ipperwash. 10 "And he sent me to go find out what it 11 is they were going to do." 12 Do you have any problem with that 13 description of events? 14 A: That -- that's fair. 15 Q: That -- that -- you don't have a 16 disagreement with that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And Detective Sergeant Wright went to 19 that meeting and I understand the -- the evidence will be 20 that he had some problem finding the meeting at first. 21 That, in fact, he was instructed by you to go to a 22 meeting in Port Franks and it turned out the meeting 23 wasn't there so he had to go and look for the meeting. 24 Does that sound right to you? 25 A: I -- I think that's fair, yes.
261 Q: Yeah. And the meeting was by non- 2 Native owners and residents in the area who were quite 3 concerned about the Native occupation at the Park, does 4 that sound right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I'll get back to that meeting a 7 little later but I anticipate the evidence of -- of 8 Detective Sergeant Wright will be that he left that 9 meeting and it was actually found to be located at the 10 TOC centre near the Park on East Parkway Road; is that 11 fair? 12 A: That's -- that's my understanding, 13 yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And that TOC centre is about half a 18 kilometre west of the Park, is that right? 19 A: .7 kilometres to be exact. 20 Q: .7 kilometres. And do you recall 21 that meeting of the concerned non-Native residents didn't 22 happen right at the TOC centre, it happened nearby at a 23 nearby parking lot? Do you have information on that, do 24 you recall? 25 A: Well, the TOC was set up in the MNR
271 parking lot is a fairly large parking area there, but the 2 equipment, the police equipment was set up generally 3 towards the back of that lot. 4 Exact location of where the people 5 congregated where Sergeant Wright talked to them, quite 6 frankly all I know it's on that somewhere. 7 Q: Okay. Now I'm going to go through 8 with you some of the evidence and anticipated evidence 9 about what happened after Detective Sergeant Wright left 10 that meeting. And just so you know where I'm going and 11 planning on asking about, I want to ask about a little 12 bit more about that -- that meeting of -- of protesters, 13 if I can call them that. 14 I'll come to that later, but secondly, I 15 understand there was an incident or -- or a set of 16 observations by Detective Sergeant Wright when he arrived 17 at the corner where East Parkway and Army Camp Road join 18 near the entrance to Ipperwash Park; is that right? 19 There was a bit of an incident or 20 something. Something he reported there at that point; is 21 that right? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And then I want to, after examining 24 that, I want to also look at what I'm thinking may be 25 another significant aspect of that time period; and that
281 is that shortly after Detective Sergeant Wright left that 2 corner, there was an incident at that corner involving 3 Gerald George and Stewart George and a stone thrown at a 4 car. 5 Do you agree with me there was that 6 incident shortly thereafter? 7 A: I -- I was of the understanding the 8 order is reversed. 9 Q: All right. Well, we'll look at that 10 and I -- I -- we'll clarify that. 11 And I will also want to look at a third or 12 fourth incident that we think may have some significance 13 in that period, and that is arising from, as I anticipate 14 the evidence, will be that Detective Sergeant Wright 15 drove Army Camp Road going south. 16 And eventually, at somewhere along that 17 road, radioed in to command post about those two (2) 18 previous incidents, namely what he'd seen at the corner 19 and what he'd heard about the stone throwing incident. 20 In other words, he radioed in to the 21 command post about those, is that right? 22 A: He could have. 23 Q: Okay, I'll ask you some questions 24 about that. And then I will also ask you some questions 25 about what happened then with respect to the holding back
291 of the ERT day shift after Detective Sergeant Wright 2 radioed in. 3 And I -- can I -- can I -- can you agree 4 that around that time the day shift of the ERT officers 5 who'd been manning the various checkpoints would finish 6 their shift around seven or eight o'clock, ended up 7 staying for further work after the end of their shift, is 8 that right? 9 A: That's correct, yes. 10 Q: So I'd like to ask about those four 11 (4) or five (5) events. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I'd like you to... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Turn, in the document binder I've 20 provided to you, to doc -- Tab 34. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Now this is Inquiry Document 1000445, 25 and it's entitled "Taped Interview of Acting Detective
301 Staff Sergeant Mark Wright," dated 12th of September 2 1995. 3 Now, I'd like to ask you about this 4 description by Detective Sergeant Wright of the incident 5 that he observed or was part of at the corner of Army 6 Camp Road and East Parkway, at the corner of the Park. 7 Now, obviously you were not there for that 8 incident; is that right? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: On the other hand, as the incident 11 commander for whom Mark Wright was the assistant, you 12 have some responsibility for what he was doing at the 13 time; is that fair? 14 A: Fair enough. 15 Q: And indeed, quite apart from him 16 being your assistant, as overall incident commander, you 17 have some degree of responsibility for what his 18 participation at that point was, is that fair? 19 A: I guess from that perspective, 20 probably for about sixty (60) officers. 21 Q: Yeah, it's a bit -- it's a bit 22 intimidating, isn't it? 23 Now, I anticipate, based on this 24 interview, that Mr. Wright's evidence will be that he 25 left the meeting of non-Native protesters. And this is -
311 - if you look at page... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten (10). 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 8 Q: Thank you. Page 10, that according 9 to this statement by Detective Sergeant Wright, he left 10 the meeting that had approximately thirty (30) to forty 11 (40) cottage -- cottage owners. And then -- and he said 12 that was approximately 7:45 or 7:30 that he left 13 according to the statement, do you see that; about two- 14 thirds (2/3) of the way down page -- 15 A: I -- I haven't read this before, so 16 please bear with me. 17 Q: I certainly understand that, yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: If you could read to the -- page 12, 23 three-quarters (3/4) of the way down to the paragraph 24 break? 25
321 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Thank you. And I'd like to just 5 point out some aspects of this anticipated evidence, and 6 ask you some questions about that. 7 He mentions in this -- in this description 8 that when he drove west down East Parkway, and arrived at 9 the corner where the Park was, he saw approximately eight 10 (8) or ten (10) Native males standing there; is -- is 11 that right? 12 A: Correct. That's -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- that's what it says, yes. 15 Q: And he says they're standing at the 16 edge of the road, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then he says: 19 "Four (4) or five (5) of them had what 20 I would describe as clubs in their 21 hands." 22 Do you see that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And he says: 25 "They looked to me like large axe
331 handles." 2 Right? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Then he continues, he says: 5 "That's what they looked to me, 6 anyways. It was getting dark and I 7 wasn't real close to them." 8 So, he says that about his observations 9 about the axe handles, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Then he says he has a conversation 12 with them and he says, a little later, two-thirds (2/3) 13 of the way down page 11: 14 "They were waving the clubs a bit. 15 What they were doing is a number of 16 them were holding them in one (1) hand 17 and slapping it in his other hand, and 18 I took that as an intimidating gesture, 19 as far as I was concerned." 20 Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Then he describes how he left that 23 area, and he drove south along Army Camp Road, and came 24 to the first OPP checkpoint, right? 25 A: Correct.
341 Q: Now that would have been checkpoint 2 Charlie, is that right? 3 A: It'd be the one in the area of Silver 4 Birch Trailer Park. I believe it's -- it's "C", but 5 I'd -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- have to double-check the map to 8 confirm that -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- to be accurate. 11 Q: I -- I think it's checkpoint C -- 12 A: I'll take your word for it. 13 Q: -- and if I'm wrong you -- you can 14 cross-examine me on that one. Well, we can correct that 15 if it's -- it's wrong. 16 And is that -- where's that in 17 relationship to Matheson Drive? It's a little farther 18 south of that; is that about right, do you know? 19 A: Well, generally speaking, halfway 20 between Matheson Drive and the entrance to the Military 21 Base. 22 Q: Okay. And he arrives there, and 23 according to this statement Detective Sergeant Wright 24 says he spoke to them, that would be the officers at the 25 checkpoint, and said he was concerned about these
351 individuals there at the scene; do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: "I told them to be careful, I told 4 them not to approach these individuals. 5 That I would be contacting the command 6 post and explaining this situation." 7 And then he says: 8 "We may be taking action with respect 9 to those individuals there." 10 Is that right? 11 A: That's what he said, yes. 12 Q: Now I'm going to ask you other 13 questions about other anticipated evidence from Detective 14 Sergeant Wright about that incident, but let me just 15 clarify your state of knowledge at this point in time. 16 Are you aware -- well, first of all, you 17 subsequently became aware of this incident involving 18 Detective Sergeant Wright and some protesters at the 19 corner; is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Are you -- were you aware of any 22 other similar incident that happened that night just 23 prior to the one we've just looked at, or am I correct in 24 thinking this is the first incident that Detective 25 Sergeant Wright reports on the evening of September 6th?
361 A: Well, I -- I really can't speak to 2 that. I mean I -- I don't know which -- which order it 3 came into the command post because I wasn't there. 4 What I can tell you is the telephone calls 5 that I received, when I was off duty, from Detective 6 Sergeant Wright, and those phone calls are a matter of 7 record. 8 Q: Yes. Well, I'd like to just to 9 orient this incident to play one (1) of the tape recorded 10 phone calls which already has been played, simply because 11 my clients certainly are concerned that this incident. 12 And the subsequent ones that I mentioned 13 as Detective Sergeant Wright moved up the road, and the - 14 - the culmination in a phone call that you received from 15 Detective Sergeant Wright, and what happened thereafter 16 are very important aspects of the events leading up to 17 the death of -- of the George Family's brother. 18 So I ask your indulgence if I will be 19 going into some detail in these. But perhaps I could ask 20 that that tape be played again. And the reason is, I'll 21 be upfront, it's at the end of this tape which arrived 22 from -- well, first of all, as I understand it, and you 23 can correct me if I'm wrong, the evidence will show that 24 Detective Sergeant Wright phoned you or paged you while 25 you were off duty?
371 A: Correct. 2 Q: And you called back to the command 3 post as a result; is that right? 4 A: I believe that's the order it went, 5 yes. 6 Q: That's right. And so that phone 7 call, which is in this binder at Tab 23 and which is 8 Exhibit P-428, legend 44. I think it's transcript Tab 9 Number 49 in the -- in the binder you were provided 10 earlier, but in -- in this binder it's Tab 23. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually the 12 transcript is P-444B at -- I presume it's the same one at 13 Tab 49 of Exhibit P-444B. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you very 15 much for that correction. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 18 Q: I'm going to ask that that tape be 19 played, and it includes some mention, I think, to the 20 incident at the corner of Army Camp and -- Army Camp Road 21 and East Parkway which we just reviewed Detective 22 Sergeant's statement on. 23 So I'll ask My Colleague to play that tape 24 now. And the reason I -- 25
381 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 September 6, 1996 4 TIME: 19.58.50 hours 5 Track1.wav 6 7 PETERMAN: Command post, PETERMAN. 8 CARSON: Hi It's john CARSON here, how are you? 9 PETERMAN: Not too bad 10 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 11 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 12 CARSON: Thank you. 13 WRIGHT: Hi John. 14 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 15 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 16 here. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic 19 tables are ... 20 CARSON: Right. 21 WRIGHT: I just took care of the public for now, 22 but if we don't deal with this we're (I/A) 23 (background radio transmissions) 24 WRIGHT: They got about eight of them there with 25 baseball bats right on the road edge you
391 know. 2 CARSON: Well who are they? 3 WRIGHT: Well I don't know just a bunch of Native 4 you know what I mean 5 CARSON: Oh, oh I see oh they're out on on the ah 6 road. 7 WRIGHT: Right just on the edge okay. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 WRIGHT: The school buses roaring around... 10 CARSON: Yeah. 11 WRIGHT: And ah ah I told the two checkpoints and 12 ah I didn't get I got ah the one at the 13 top yeah twenty-one. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 WRIGHT: And and Zack comes back and he says we 16 just got a vehicle it's been pelted with 17 mischief...oh hang on a sec, what? 18 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck 19 are looking like they're moving toward the 20 roadway now.) 21 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 22 like they're moving towards the road now, 23 so they're going to try and take that 24 position again, we got that house there... 25 CARSON: Okay.
401 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here 2 and Canine. 3 CARSON: Okay, just just ah ... 4 Background (I/A radio transmission) 5 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 WRIGHT: I got, listen here well if if if those 8 people can identify the guys who threw the 9 rocks, we can do something but if they 10 can't then they're not doing anything 11 wrong. 12 CARSON: Well if they if they're going out there 13 with baseball bats you them for weapon 14 dangerous. 15 WRIGHT: You got them for weapon dangerous, you got 16 them for ah you got them for fucking 17 mischief to the road, you got them for 18 unlawful assembly, we got that house right 19 next door. The the br we got they got the 20 school bus there and the dump truck right 21 there moving moving toward the roadway. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 WRIGHT: So... 24 CARSON: Are they are they coming out of the park? 25 WRIGHT: I don't know yet ... we got anymore are
411 they out? 2 Background: (I/A) info now) 3 WRIGHT: We want to be ... wha a sit (I/A) on those 4 thing the instant they they move out, I 5 want to know about it. 6 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 7 WRIGHT: And I got the whole day shift here with 8 Canine. 9 CARSON: Okay so what's Dale want to do then? 10 WRIGHT: Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, I'll be here 11 till fucking daylight figuring it out and 12 daylights's a waste then 13 CARSON: Okay well you let me know if you wnat to 14 come back. 15 WRIGHT: Well don't you want to be briefed about 16 the citizens. 17 CARSON: Well I do but ah.... 18 WRIGHT: Let him run it. 19 CARSON: We got to get, we got to get together and 20 talk about your meeting tomorrow morning. 21 WRIGHT: Yeah okay well where are you? 22 CARSON: Well I'm having dinner right now. 23 WRIGHT: Where at ah... 24 CARSON: I'm in town here. 25 WRIGHT: For at Forest?
421 CARSON: Yeah at ah at a residence. 2 WRIGHT: Okay well...what if he asks me what did 3 you say what do you want me to tell him? 4 CARSON: Well it it's not my (I/A) 5 WRIGHT: Don't you say we go get those fucking 6 guys? 7 CARSON: Well we got to deal with them we can't let 8 them out in that area with that stuff. 9 WRIGHT: No. 10 CARSON: So if he wants I'll come back...but he's 11 got to make that call for me to come back. 12 WRIGHT: Okay. 13 CARSON: That's his problem. 14 WRIGHT: Alright. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 WRIGHT: Okay. 17 CARSON: But if not ah I'll meet you over at the 18 motel here in a while... 19 WRIGHT: I'll see you there. 20 CARSON: Ah... 21 WRIGHT: Is that what you said, you were broken a 22 bit. 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 WRIGHT: Yeah. 25 CARSON: How about quarter to nine.
431 WRIGHT: Pardon me? 2 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 3 WRIGHT: Ah if I'm out of here. 4 CARSON: Okay well you call me if not okay, I'm on 5 I'm on my cell phone. 6 WRIGHT: Okay and that give it to me again John 7 your cell phone. 8 CARSON: Ah 671... 9 WRIGHT: Yeah. 10 CARSON: 6086. 11 WRIGHT: 6086. 12 CARSON: Yeah. 13 WRIGHT: He's calling out TRU... (loud humming 14 noise) okay so I'll call you at at what 15 time if I'm not there? 16 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 17 WRIGHT: Okay. 18 CARSON: If if if he if he's calling out TRU... 19 WRIGHT: Yeah. 20 CARSON: You advise him I should be notified. 21 WRIGHT: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay? 23 WRIGHT: Will do. 24 CARSON: Alright. 25 WRIGHT: Okay, bye.
441 End of Conversation 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The same, 4 Commissioner, transcript appears at Tab 48, and we made 5 some corrections during the Examination In-Chief at Tab 6 48. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Thank you, Mr. 8 Millar. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 Do you want to make the corrections on this copy, or just 11 acknowledge them or not bother? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the same except 13 Tab 48 is the one that we played. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I -- I don't 16 think any of the corrections are relevant as I recall. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 18 fine. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 23 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner Carson, 24 that's -- conversation is identified as having been 25 commenced, I believe, around 7:58 p.m. or eight o'clock
451 on the evening of the 6th; does that sound about right. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Yeah. And according to the statement 4 that we just reviewed of Detective Sergeant Wright, he 5 had left the meeting on Army Camp Road approximately 7:30 6 or 7:45 according to that statement, do you -- is that 7 right; do you recall that? 8 A: That sounds -- yes. 9 Q: Now, this phone call has a number of 10 comments that may be of significance. It ends 11 approximately when Detective Sergeant Wright says to you 12 he's calling out TRU; do you recall that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that appears to be notification 15 or observation to you that Inspector Linton, who was in 16 the command post as night-time Incident Commander, was 17 calling out the tactical and rescue unit; is that right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Now, one (1) reason I want to look at 20 this time period closely is we appear to have gone from 21 Detective Sergeant Wright leaving a meeting at 7:30 or 22 7:45 and driving down the road, past Ipperwash Park, to 23 the Incident Commander on the night-time shift calling 24 out TRU in something like fifteen (15) minutes. And if I 25 look at the reference to TRU at the end of that time
461 period, I have some concerns. 2 Now, TRU is, as I understand it, the 3 maximum fire power that the OPP possesses as a unit; is 4 that -- is that fair? 5 A: I take some exception to the 6 terminology, but they're the most highly trained unit 7 that we have. 8 Q: Well, they're very highly trained, 9 they're very highly trained in the use of some fairly 10 sophisticated weapons; is that fair? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And they are a unit of last resort, 13 in some ways; is that right? 14 A: For sure, yes. 15 Q: And that's the last card that the OPP 16 has to play in a situation of potential or actual 17 violence; is that fair? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And that's why a little -- the 20 evidence shows a little later, you were very concerned by 21 what you just heard Detective Sergeant Wright say about 22 calling out TRU; is that right? 23 A: I think my reaction on this phone 24 call demonstrates that. 25 Q: Yes.
471 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, I'd like to go back again on -- 4 through the transcripts of that phone call, and point out 5 a couple of other comments that Detective Sergeant Wright 6 is recorded as making. 7 He says at one (1) point to you: 8 "They got about eight (8) of them there 9 with baseball bats right on the road 10 edge, you know?" 11 Now, that -- that's approximately 12 correctly what he said to you at that point, according to 13 the tape; is that right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. Now, that raises a question in 16 my mind because the statement of Mark Wright, which we 17 just looked at, at Tab 34 in this -- in this document 18 reference book, and Commissioner, I wonder if could make 19 that taped interview of Acting Detective Staff Sergeant 20 Mark Wright an exhibit? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-462. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 62? 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-462: Document 1000445 Taped
481 interview of acting detective 2 Staff Sergeant Mark Wright, 3 September 12/'95 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 6 Q: Thank you. When we looked at page 11 7 of that report at Tab 34, the evidence seems to be that 8 Detective Mark Wright said that: 9 "Four (4) or -- four (4) to five (5) of 10 them had what I would describe as clubs 11 in the hand." 12 Is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So, there seems to be a discrepancy 15 between what he said in this interview report and what he 16 said to you in the tape that we just heard, in the sense 17 that in the tape he says: 18 "There's eight (8) of them with 19 baseball bats." 20 And that suggests that eight (8) of them 21 had those objects in their hands and then also -- 22 A: Look, Mr. Klippenstein, I'm not going 23 to defend Mark Wright on his comments between two (2) 24 different statements; I suggest only he can answer to 25 that.
491 If you look at the page just prior, he 2 indicates eight (8) to ten (10) were standing on the 3 roadway, of which four (4) or five (5) had baseball bats. 4 How he wants to clarify his statement when he's 5 interviewed, I mean I -- I'm not sure I'm the person to 6 judge the semantics of what he says. 7 Q: I'm not asking you to judge semantics 8 of what he said and obviously he's best qualified to say 9 -- to describe what he had his mind. However, this is 10 what he said to you and he's your assistant, and you have 11 overall responsibility for the situation. 12 So, I do want to ask you, eventually, 13 about this discrepancy or apparent discrepancy, and 14 others, what you think of it and what it means, if 15 anything, for the operation then. 16 So I understand, and don't -- I don't 17 disagree with your qualification of your answers to some 18 point. But -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it might 20 be -- of course, we will be calling Mark Wright, but 21 there are two (2) telephone -- radio communications of 22 Mark Wright, one (1) at 19:25, I believe it's Mark 23 Wright, and also another radio communication at 19:50 24 from Mark Wright that deal with both of these incidents. 25 I just point that out to My Friend.
501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, are 2 these ones that you just referred to, or are they ones we 3 haven't heard yet? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, we haven't heard 5 them. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. And we 7 were going to play them -- you were going to play them 8 when you called Detective Sergeant Wright or were you? 9 Or you were -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I was going to 11 play when I called Detective Sergeant Wright but -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- they bear directly 14 on what My -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Friend's asking 17 about. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 19 okay, carry on. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And subject to Mr. 21 Horton's objecting, the -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're 23 playing too many tapes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Orkin, actually, 25 the --
511 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to tell 3 My Friend about them. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 Carry on, then. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Mr. Orkin has 7 given me his proxy objection to object to my questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Thank you, Mr. 10 Millar and I -- Commissioner, I was going to refer to 11 those, as well. And again I ask your forgiveness for 12 being rather slow in some of these details but there are 13 various reports on this and they do seem to suggest a 14 possible area of concern. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 16 important and no one's rushing you, so carry on. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 19 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner Carson, what 20 Deputy -- what Mr. Wright said to you in his call that 21 we've just heard is that they've got about eight (8) of 22 them with baseball bats right on the road edge. 23 Now, you point out that in his other 24 report and we'll look at some more reports of this as 25 well, he refers to eight (8) or ten (10); correct?
521 A: Correct. 2 Q: Would you agree with me that when he 3 said that they've got about eight (8) of them there with 4 baseball bats, it's reasonable to infer that he meant 5 that eight (8) of them had baseball bats? 6 I'm not asking you what was in his mind, 7 I'm asking it's reasonable for you or anyone else to 8 infer that's what he meant; is that right? 9 A: Fair enough. 10 Q: Yeah. And so that could be a little 11 bit misleading, because -- or it could be if his prior 12 statement was true, because there he said four (4) or 13 five (5) of them had objects; is that right? 14 A: I guess it depends if we want to 15 again debate, my state of mind whether he said they had 16 four (4) or five (5) or the state of mind because he said 17 they had eight (8) or ten (10). 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I mean, he told me as -- as it says, 20 that there was about eight (8) there with baseball bats. 21 So, I assumed there were about eight (8) people there 22 with baseball bats. That -- that's what I considered. I 23 didn't consider whether there was a dozen or there was 24 two (2). 25 Q: Right. And did -- do you mean you
531 understood from what Detective Sergeant Wright said, that 2 there were eight (8) people who had eight (8) baseball 3 bats? 4 A: Correct, and that's -- that was -- 5 that's how -- that's the information he gave me, that's 6 what I was working with. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Sandler. 9 OBJ MR. MARK SANDLER: Sorry. Yes, as you 10 know, I tend to be very quiet during the cross- 11 examination because I want to give Mr. Klippenstein a 12 full opportunity to explore these issues. 13 I -- I am a little bit concerned. I 14 didn't rise on Mr. Millar's point, because I had assumed 15 at some point, even Mr. Klippenstein or later on, I 16 would, put all of the passages here. 17 I'm just a little bit concerned, because 18 we're blurring some lines here. It's perfectly fine to 19 ask Deputy Commissioner Carson what he was advised, 20 either by Detective Staff Sergeant Wright or anyone else 21 about Detective Staff Sergeant Wright's observations. 22 I'm just a little bit concerned about what 23 did you take from this, when -- when the evidence is that 24 in the case of the statement, he hadn't seen it before. 25 And I'm just not sure that the record is being terribly
541 helpful to you, frankly, on what that Deputy Commissioner 2 Carson knew, what he understood, what he was told. 3 And I must confess, I don't see some of 4 the distinctions as being material that My Friend puts, 5 but I think he's entitled to put whether you would see 6 that as a distinction if -- if you were told two (2) 7 different things and -- and what the nature of the 8 differences are. 9 But I'm getting a little bit confused 10 about what kind of evidence is being elicited, to be 11 frank. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 13 do you want to comment? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If I -- I think it's 15 fair to say to the Witness, What was told to you, what 16 you understood. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We are going to call 19 Mr. -- Acting Staff Sergeant Wright -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- to -- and he can 22 answer the questions about his statements. The -- it's - 23 - and what he meant in his statements, because they're 24 his statement and we've got these other telephone 25 communications.
551 But, I think it's fair to say to My -- as 2 My Friend has done, what -- what were you told? What did 3 you understand? But, it's difficult for -- this Witness 4 can't comment on what Mr. Wright may have meant in other 5 documents that he didn't have. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 9 Mr. Sandler's concern, but I don't think you've gone 10 beyond the point yet. So, I think you're asking the 11 questions almost in the way that Mr. Millar's suggesting, 12 up to this point. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It depends 15 on where you're going from here, I guess. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Just -- it's a 17 very important point and -- and you -- you may recall, 18 Commissioner, that I think I tried to anticipate and -- 19 and be respectful of Mr. Sandler's concerns. I asked two 20 (2) things, I asked what was in Deputy Commissioner 21 Carson's mind -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His -- 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- or 24 understanding. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
561 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And, he said 2 that he understood there were eight (8) people with eight 3 (8) baseball bats. 4 Now, I will say in -- with further 5 evidence that that is actually a very, very important 6 point. I also asked -- and this is a little different, 7 Deputy Commissioner Carson, what was a reasonable 8 inference from what Detective Mark Wright said. 9 Those are two (2) different questions and 10 they're quite different from asking what was in Mark 11 Wright's mind. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 13 answered both those questions, so I -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, thank 15 you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 17 he can and I think he did. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. And I -- 19 I appreciate the -- the distinctions and cautions My 20 Friend Mr. Sandler's making and I -- I do hope that we 21 can -- we can be careful about those. 22 However, I would again, say I believe this 23 is a matter of great concern because what we have here in 24 the of this call is TRU being called out. And I also 25 believe there's reason to be concerned about that because
571 of another conversation that occurred later which I -- 2 which is incorporated into a tape and which I will, 3 perhaps, ask My Colleague to play now. 4 And that's in -- the transcript for that 5 is found in the document book I just prepared at -- I 6 just have to double-check -- it's at Tab 33 and I just 7 want to double-check my exhibit references. 8 I believe it's Exhibit P-... 9 THE REGISTRAR: 444. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: In a moment 11 I'll -- I'll be able to give the correct exhibit number. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: This is, 14 Deputy Commissioner Carson, a tape and a transcript and I 15 believe I have the... 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: ...number 18 here. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- it's region -- 20 it's Telephone Call Number 70; it's Exhibit P-44 -- P- 21 444B at Tab 67, the call between Detective -- I mean 22 Deputy Commissioner Carson and Marilyn Murray at fifty- 23 five (55) minutes after midnight on the morning of 24 September 7th. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you very
581 much, Mr. Millar. 2 And I'm going to ask that this tape be 3 played. And there is a reference in that transcript and 4 tape, Deputy Commissioner Carson, to baseball bats, and I 5 -- I put it before you because of my concern about the 6 differences between Mark Wright's various reports on this 7 -- this issue. So if -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this -- 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- I ask that 10 it be played now. One (1) moment, please. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Has this 12 tape been played? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we need 15 to... 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- 17 Commissioner, I will have the whole tape played and then 18 an excerpt that we've made of the -- the paragraphs that 19 are a particular focus for now. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: May I ask, 21 Mr. Klippenstein, why you need to play the whole tape? 22 We have the transcript; we've already played the tape. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can 25 refer to it. I'm just thinking about time.
591 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Sure. I -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you think 3 it's necessary then by all means. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I don't and in 5 order to save time we prepared an excerpt of the part 6 that is the focus of my questioning and we'll play just 7 that. And I just want to make sure -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- for people 10 who wanted the context, that was available. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 14 Q: And that excerpt commences in the 15 transcript on page 416 is the number that appears on my 16 copy but I don't know if that's the official page number 17 4-1-6. 18 And it begins with -- well, I'll just -- 19 I'll just play the excerpt. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 CARSON: Ah what happened is they wend out ah a 24 member of the public had driven by there 25 and had been ah ah ah ah their car had be
601 literally assaulted... 2 MURRAY Hmm hmm. 3 CARSON: Okay they went out and banged on the car 4 with with the baseball bats and stuff and 5 and that's why we went to clear them away 6 from the from the highway. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 9 Q: Now were you able to hear that, 10 Deputy Commissioner Carson or should I play that again? 11 A: Yes. No, it's fine. 12 Q: Okay. In that conversation which was 13 as I understand it a call between yourself and Marilyn 14 Murray, another OPP whose role was to prepare statements 15 for the public or the press; is that fair? 16 A: Yes, she's a civilian, director of 17 media relations. 18 Q: Okay. And this call occurred shortly 19 or one (1) hour approximately midnight on the morning of 20 September 7th. In other words after Dudley was shot. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And in that call you convey to her 23 that: 24 "A member of the public had driven by 25 there and had been -- their car had
611 been literally assaulted. They went 2 out and banged on the car with baseball 3 bats and stuff. And that's why we went 4 to clear them away from the highway." 5 Now is that do you think an accurate 6 record of what you said? 7 A: I would believe so, yes. 8 Q: And in saying that you were 9 describing to Ms. Murray an encapsulated form of what you 10 thought had happened that night being aware that she 11 might transmit that publicly; is that fair? 12 A: No. That wasn't her job to -- to do 13 that. I was giving her an overview of what happened. It 14 would be Sergeant Doug Babbitt's responsibility to craft 15 a press release and -- and do the actual release. 16 But she would work with Babbitt in helping 17 him prepared that. 18 Q: All right. And what you say here is 19 that a member of the public had driven by there and had 20 had their car assaulted that -- that the Native 21 protesters banged on the car with baseball bats and 22 stuff; right? 23 A: Correct. Just so I'm clear, we're 24 talking about two (2) different incidents from Mark 25 Wright's incident; correct?
621 Q: There -- that's a -- that's a good 2 distinction to make and part of why I'm asking this is to 3 clarify what happened with those baseball bats and where 4 they came from. And I will get back to that. 5 What my question now is that when 6 discussing this with Ms. Murray, you described in what 7 you said was an overview to her that a car was banged on 8 with baseball bats, right? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And then you said: 11 "And that's why we went to clear them 12 away from the highway." 13 That's what you said; right? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: So you seem to be suggesting to Ms. 16 Murray that the primary or triggering reason for the OPP 17 to go and clear them away from the highway was the 18 banging on -- on the car with baseball bats; right? 19 A: This is what brought it all to our 20 attention what was going on in the parking lot, I would 21 suggest. 22 Now just -- just for clarity here, I -- I 23 understand today that there were no baseball bats used on 24 the vehicle. But at the time I was of the view that the 25 vehicle had been struck with a bat or a bat-like object
631 and in fact as I understand it from a number of sources, 2 that in fact it was struck with a rock and not a baseball 3 bat at all. 4 Q: Well, just to clarify what you just 5 said. You said it was your understanding at the time 6 that a car was struck with a bat or bat-like object. 7 In fact what I hear, when I hear this tape 8 is that it's more than a bat or bat-like object, what you 9 believed at the time was baseball bats, plural, right? 10 A: More than one. 11 Q: Right. And -- and -- and not just 12 bat-like objects, but you believed, at the time, that a 13 car had been struck with more than one (1) baseball bat, 14 right? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And furthermore, you believed, at 17 that time, that that constituted an assault on a car, 18 right, because that's the word you used there. 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: And that the Native protesters had 21 banged on the car with more than one (1) baseball bat, 22 that's what you believed at the time? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And you gave at the time that -- 25 well, you said just now that that's the incident that
641 brought it all to your attention, I believe that's what 2 you just said, right? 3 A: Not to my attention, sir, to 4 Inspector Linton, and Mark Wright, and others. I was 5 certainly informed after that. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But I don't want you confused that -- 8 that I was in the command post at the time, getting this 9 information as it happened, because I wasn't. 10 Q: Thank you. But what you say, in this 11 statement, is more than this just brought it all to your 12 attention. 13 You say, "that's why we went to clear them 14 away", right; that's what you said at the time? 15 A: That's what I said to Marilyn Murray, 16 yes. 17 Q: Yeah, okay. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you believed what you said at the 20 time? 21 A: Of course. 22 Q: And you believed when you said that, 23 that that was true, is that right? 24 A: Of course. 25 Q: Okay, thank you. Commissioner, I
651 wonder if this is a good time for a break? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. This 3 is a good time for morning break, we'll take a break now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:38 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:56 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 16 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner Carson, I 17 was asking you some questions about the taped 18 conversation between yourself and Detective Sergeant 19 Wright at approximately 7:58 or 8:00 p.m. on the evening 20 of September 6th, that we just played. 21 And the transcript for that is at Tab 23 22 of the document book that I provided to you, and so it's 23 also an exhibit. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
661 Q: Now, there's a couple of other 2 comments made by Detective Sergeant Wright in that 3 conversation that I'd like to ask you some questions 4 about. 5 He mentions, at one (1) point in the tape, 6 actually two (2) points; he says: 7 "We got the whole day shift ERT team 8 here and canine." 9 Do you remember reading or hearing that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And did you take that to mean 12 that the day shift ERT team members who'd been occupying 13 the checkpoints, during the day, for their twelve (12) or 14 so hour shift, were still at the command post? 15 A: Well, what it meant to me is they had 16 not been allowed to go off duty yet. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Where their actual physical location 19 was, we didn't discuss. 20 Q: All right, but what it meant, then, 21 is that the ERT team members who'd finished their day 22 shift, and that would have been approximately 7:00 p.m.-- 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: -- they'd not been released? 25 A: Right.
671 Q: And what did you take that to mean? 2 A: Well, I took it to mean that for 3 whatever activity was going on, they were held on in the 4 event that they were required to be utilized. 5 Q: I see, okay. And then the reference 6 to "canine" refers to what? 7 A: That's the -- the canine is the -- 8 the -- the dog and canine handler units. 9 Q: Okay. Now, the day shift ERT team 10 members that had been held back would have been the 11 individuals who manned the checkpoints for the last 12 twelve (12) hours or so, is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how many people are we talking 15 about there; that two (2) teams, is that right? 16 A: Two (2) -- two (2) fifteen (15) 17 officer units. 18 Q: Two (2) fifteen (15) officers -- I 19 thought it was twelve (12) or is there an additional... 20 A: There's generally fifteen (15) -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- give or take a couple depending on 23 availability of personnel. 24 Q: Okay. So, in theory, two (2) times 25 fifteen (15) --
681 A: Correct. 2 Q: -- who'd been working the day shift 3 for twelve (12) hours were now held back in case they 4 were needed? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: All right. And those two (2) teams - 7 - those two (2) ERT teams -- would be there, plus the two 8 (2) ERT teams who had just come in to replace them, is 9 that right? 10 A: The -- the fresh teams should have 11 relieved the other officers on the checkpoints. 12 Q: Right. Now, the -- the day shift ERT 13 team that Detective Sergeant Wright refers to here can 14 also be formed into a crowd management unit; is that 15 right? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And so, what we have here, according 18 to what Detective Sergeant Wright is saying, we now have, 19 at approximately eight o'clock, a crowd management unit 20 there? 21 A: We have the availability of one. 22 Q: Right. And I anticipate the evidence 23 will be, and this may sound familiar to you, that those 24 ERT team members who'd been held back had their CMU kit 25 in the trunks of their cruisers; is that right?
691 A: Well, they -- they better have it in 2 the trunk of the cruiser; they're expected to, yes. 3 Q: Right. So, and I believe the 4 evidence will show that some or all of those ERT team 5 members that had been held back would have been 6 congregating at the command post in Forest for debriefing 7 at the end of their shift; is that right? 8 A: Yes. The Tube A (phonetic) garage at 9 the Forest Detachment is the debriefing site, so that's - 10 - that's where they should be have been brought to for 11 the end of shift debriefing. 12 Q: And so they would be there being 13 debriefed, and they would essentially be a crowd 14 management unit or a riot squad, if I can use that 15 terminology, ready to go there; is that right? 16 A: You have a congregation of thirty 17 (30) officers; how you intend to utilize them, I mean you 18 could utilize them for a search party. I mean that when 19 you -- if you're talking about what is their capability, 20 are they capable of being a crowd unit; yes. 21 Were they assembled there as a crowd 22 management unit; I would suggest they were brought back 23 and held there pending decision of -- of what we do next. 24 Q: Right. But one (1) of the options 25 is, you now have a crowd management unit potential
701 waiting there at the Command Post? 2 A: They're available, yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And I believe I'm correct in 4 saying that the Operation Maple documents actually never 5 anticipated, or foresaw the use of a crowd management as 6 such; is that correct? 7 A: We didn't -- we didn't speak to crowd 8 management in the -- in the written form of the document 9 at all, no. 10 Q: Right. Now, you say in the written 11 form of the document; was it discussed or anticipated 12 verbally? 13 A: ERT teams have a capability of doing 14 crowd management and you use them as -- as you see fit 15 under the circumstances. As -- as the -- each -- each 16 unit prepared their plan it was for the number of 17 officers and there was checkpoints and -- and that type 18 of thing. 19 There was no discussion about an ERT 20 operation as far as crowd management was concern. And 21 quite frankly, depending on what the outcome of any 22 potential court process specific to the injunction, it 23 would be speculation at best. 24 Q: Okay. But I am right then in 25 thinking that in the Operation Maple document, and you've
711 just said, in the Operation Maple discussions, there was 2 no anticipation, at that time, that a crowd management 3 unit, that is a riot squad, would be used? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Correct? Okay. And in fact when 6 Detective Sergeant Wright said, We've got the whole day 7 shift ERT team here, they were, in fact, used for a crowd 8 management unit a little bit after this; is that right? 9 A: Correct. But just to -- to make it 10 clearer, they could have been used as a simple arrest 11 team to go in and arrest someone if that was what the 12 commander decided that's what needed to be done. I -- I 13 just wanted to confuse -- that because they're there, 14 they must be a crowd management unit, because that 15 clearly is not the case. 16 Q: I understand. And you mention they 17 can be used as an arrest team; I'll ask some more 18 questions about arrest later, but they ostensibly, 19 according to some evidence, were to be used just to push 20 people back into the Park, and not for arrest; is that 21 right? 22 A: That would be the preference, yes. 23 Q: That would be the preference. Okay. 24 A: That -- that is the psychological of 25 any crowd management operation.
721 Q: Well, I'll ask about that some more a 2 little later. But that leads me to another comment 3 that's included in this tape we just played in which 4 Detective Sergeant Wright says, and this is at 3:18 of 5 the transcript: 6 "Don't you say we go get those f-ing 7 guys." 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Now would you agree with me that it 11 is reasonable to understand that comment as something 12 other than we'll push them back into the Park? 13 A: Well, there's -- one (1) of the 14 things you can do is go and arrest them. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And that's one (1) of the options. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Right. But I -- I, quite frankly, I 19 wouldn't take it from that that it means any particular 20 approach is what he's suggesting, he's suggesting we need 21 to deal with this issue is what he's saying here. 22 Q: Now, are you telling me that -- well 23 what -- what did you understand by that comment? First 24 of all, were you a little bit taken aback when Detective 25 Sergeant Wright said:
731 "Don't you say we go get those f-ing 2 guys." 3 A: Not really. 4 Q: No? And did you understand him to 5 mean anything in particular when he made that comment? 6 A: Well, as you will see in this 7 discussion, I pushed him back to discuss it with 8 Inspector Linton. Inspector Linton is the day shift 9 Commander. He's keeping me up to date because of 10 obviously our relationship, and his responsibility to 11 myself as the overall Incident Commander. 12 What -- what you have here is he's sharing 13 with me what's gone on, he's called me direct. Inspector 14 Linton is dealing with issues, I'm presuming, as they are 15 happening, and I pushed him back to say, Well, what does 16 Inspector Linton want done. 17 Q: Well, my question is with respect to 18 this, and I'm asking you this in detail because, as I 19 said before, we have Detective Sergeant Wright just 20 moments before this, down at the Park, reporting baseball 21 bats and other things, and then we have Detective Wright 22 saying: 23 "Don't you say we go get those f-ing 24 guys." 25 Would you agree with me that it's
741 reasonable to conclude that Detective Sergeant Wright is 2 taking a pretty aggressive position with respect to the 3 people that he saw near the Park entrance? 4 A: Well, I -- I find myself trying to 5 defend what your -- your interpretation of -- of his 6 comment, and quite frankly, I -- I don't feel I'm the 7 best person to defend what he was thinking. 8 What I do know is, Mark Wright dealt with 9 a group of people who were very much about to confront 10 the occupiers not so -- an hour or two (2) earlier, and 11 he understood, clearly, the activity that was going on in 12 that parking lot, and the risks that were associated to 13 it. 14 So, while he didn't use boardroom language 15 to discuss his concerns, it was clear that he was 16 concerned about the activity taking place in that parking 17 lot, and that something needed to be done about it. 18 Q: Well, you said he understood clearly 19 the activity in the parking lot. Well, I'm just 20 wondering if that's actually true because we just looked 21 at a statement in which he said that there were four (4) 22 or five (5) Natives who had objects that looked like axe 23 handles, but he was not close to them, and it was pretty 24 dark; have I got that right so far? 25 A: Yes.
751 Q: And then he phoned you, and said to 2 you a sentence which you interpreted as eight (8) Native 3 people having baseball bats; is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So, if he understood clearly what was 6 going on in the parking lot, the way you've just said, he 7 didn't communicate that clearly to you, is that fair? 8 A: Well, he wasn't a 100 percent 9 accurate in saying four (4) or eight (8), I guess I would 10 take that as being a differential in his commentary. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: But clearly there was people in the 13 parking lot with -- with objects in their hands. 14 Q: All right, so he clearly understood 15 that there were people in the parking lot with objects in 16 their hands, that's what you're saying? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now when he said: 19 "Don't you say we go get those f-ing 20 guys." 21 I suggest to you he was conveying more 22 than just, Let's go push those individuals back into the 23 Park, and that it is -- well, let me rephrase that. 24 Isn't it fair to understand what he said 25 to be a fairly aggressive assertion that the OPP should
761 go down to the Park and do something more than just push 2 them into the Park. 3 Isn't that a fair interpretation of, 4 quote, "Don't you say we go get those F-ing guys?" 5 A: Well, as I indicated earlier, we 6 didn't get into a debate about what he meant in that 7 phrase. Perhaps he meant we should go and arrest them 8 and that's fair as well. 9 But as I indicated earlier, I pushed him 10 back to discuss it with Inspector Linton and if Inspector 11 Linton wanted me to come back in, I would come in and 12 deal with this issue. 13 Q: I take it from what you've just said, 14 you agree it's reasonable to read and understand what he 15 just said, as meaning we should go and arrest those 16 people. 17 That's a fair interpretation -- 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: -- of what he just said? 20 A: Sure it is. 21 Q: And it's -- it would be fair to 22 conclude that that was his opinion at the time; is that 23 right? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Now, I'd like to ask you a few more
771 questions about some other comments made by Detective 2 Sergeant Wright and I want to ask them in the same 3 context and also in a slightly different context. 4 I want to ask you how those can be 5 interpreted in a reasonable or reasonably interpreted, 6 shall I say. And I also wanted to ask what you view -- 7 what your view then, and now is about those comments 8 coming from your assistant and -- and an OPP officer. 9 Now, these comments I'd like to ask you 10 about, occur about twenty (20) minutes later and they're 11 found in the document binder that I provided to you at 12 Tab 31 as part of Inquiry Document Number 2000596 and a 13 specific transcript on the next page at Tab 31, which is 14 Inquiry Document Number 2000604. 15 Now, these -- that is a transcript of a 16 command post logger tape segment of a conversation 17 between Detective Sergeant Wright and Mr. McCabe, who's 18 calling in from Toronto with respect to the injunction 19 application being heard the next day. 20 And my questions to you don't pertain to 21 all of that, I've included the whole transcript and I 22 have the segment of that tape available, should the 23 context be desired, but what I have done is excerpted the 24 parts I'd like to address to you and those are found at 25 Tab 36 of the document binder.
781 These are the excerpts I have taken from 2 that transcript. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Thank you, My Friend has just pointed 7 out that the time is best expressed as 20:18, in other 8 words, 8:18 p.m. And this -- these excerpts occur some 9 minutes into the call so I don't know exactly what minute 10 these excerpts would appear at. 11 And I would ask that the first excerpt be 12 played and I will ask your comments about what your 13 assistant, Detective Sergeant Mark Wright says. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 16 17 TIM MCCABE: Hello. 18 MARK WRIGHT: Hello, Tim? 19 TIM MCCABE: Yes. 20 MARK WRIGHT: Hi, it's Detective Sergeant Mark Wright. 21 TIM MCCABE: Oh, thank you. 22 MARK WRIGHT: At the land of Oz here. 23 TIM MCCABE: That's how it's starting to feel. 24 MARK WRIGHT: Well, it's really -- the shit's coming 25 down right now.
791 TIM MCCABE: It is, eh? 2 MARK WRIGHT: Yeah. 3 TIM MCCABE: What's going on? 4 MARK WRIGHT: Well, we got major trouble right now. 5 TIM MCCABE: Really? 6 MARK WRIGHT: Yeah. 7 TIM MCCABE: What's -- what's the problem? 8 MARK WRIGHT: Well, they're moving -- they're coming out 9 for a fight there onto the road, so we're 10 taking all the Marines down now. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 13 Q: So that's the first segment of the 14 discussion between Mr. McCabe and Detective Sergeant 15 Wright. And I'd like to ask you a question about the 16 last comment in this segment in which Detective Sergeant 17 Wright says, 18 "Well, they're moving -- they're coming 19 out for a fight down to the road, so 20 we're taking all the marines down now." 21 Now, would you agree with me that that 22 appears to be a reference to marines, as in the Military 23 unit? 24 A: I would -- I guess that's my best 25 guess, yes.
801 Q: Okay. And would you agree with me 2 that it's probably not appropriate or helpful for your 3 assistant Detective Sergeant Wright to be referring to 4 OPP operations at that particular time as, "taking the 5 marines down now?" 6 A: Sir, it's -- it's terminology in the 7 heat of the moment. Would I prefer he use other 8 terminology? Absolutely. But, you know, you -- you will 9 have to ask him what he meant by that terminology. I 10 mean, obviously he was referring to police officers, not 11 Military Marines. 12 Q: He was analogizing them to Marines at 13 that particular point in time; is that fair? 14 A: I guess you could draw that 15 inference. 16 Q: Now, I'd to, then, turn the page to 17 the next excerpt from the transcript and I'll ask that 18 that be played now. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 TIM MCCABE: Okay, now you -- you were going to tell 23 me, what's going on now? 24 MARK WRIGHT: Right now, they've got about eight (8) 25 guys down at the bottom end of the Park
811 where the roads turn, and I know you don't 2 know the area but I'll draw it for you so 3 you -- you'll see it. 4 TIM MCCABE: Right. 5 MARK WRIGHT: They've got about eight (8) guys on the 6 edge of the road with bats in their hand. 7 And the -- 8 TIM MCCABE: Baseball bats? 9 MARK WRIGHT: And then public -- that's a county road 10 access, so that's mischief. You can't use 11 that road, and they've trashed a car that 12 went by. So we've got willful damage, 13 we've got possession of weapon dangerous, 14 we've got four (4) ERT Teams, and a TRU 15 Team, and two (2) canine units going down 16 there to do battle, right now. 17 TIM MCCABE: Yeah. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 20 Q: All right. There's a couple of 21 statements by Detective Sergeant Wright in that excerpt, 22 which I would like to ask you about. 23 First of all, he says: 24 "They've got about eight (8) guys on 25 the edge of the road with bats in their
821 hands." 2 So, he appears to be saying, again, at 3 8:18 that evening that there are eight (8) individuals 4 with eight (8) baseball bats in the same way that you 5 interpreted that statement; is that right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: He seems to be saying that to Mr. 8 McCabe? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then, he says that they've 13 trashed a car; is that right? 14 A: That's what he says, yes. 15 Q: That's what he says. And then, he 16 says, quote: 17 "And we got four (4) ERT teams and a 18 TRU team and two (2) canine units going 19 down there to do battle right now." 20 Close quote. 21 That's what he appeared to be saying, is 22 that right? 23 A: That's what he said. 24 Q: And would you agree with me it's not 25 appropriate or helpful for your assistance, Detective
831 Sergeant Wright, to be referring to the operation at that 2 point as, "going down there to do battle?" 3 A: I'm not sure where I can draw the 4 inappropriateness from but his analogy. I mean, 5 obviously, it's -- if he thinks that they're going down 6 and there's going to be an altercation, the term, 7 "battle" is -- is probably not the most appropriate term, 8 but it's certainly understandable under the -- under the 9 circumstances why he might choose that word. 10 Q: All right. I'd like to ask if you -- 11 if the next excerpt from the next page could be played. 12 One (1) moment, please. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, just for 17 the benefit of the record, because I presume My Friend 18 will want to mark this as an exhibit, the first excerpt 19 was pages 2 and 3. The excerpt that My Friend just 20 played is pages 19 and 20 of the transcript, that Inquiry 21 Document 2000604. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN:
841 Q: Thank you, Mr. Millar. And so, the 2 next excerpt will be played now. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 7 Are you coming up here? Excuse me, I think Ms. Twohig is 8 coming up. What page is this excerpt that you're 9 referring to now? 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: This is -- one 11 (1) moment, sorry. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 21. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Page 21. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 21? All 15 right. Yes, Ms. Twohig? 16 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you, Mr. 17 Commissioner. I don't have an objection so much as a 18 suggestion; and that is, that if the transcript is going 19 to be submitted as an exhibit at some point, perhaps it 20 would be more helpful to have the entire transcript -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 22 MS. KIM TWOHIG: -- made an exhibit and 23 for My Friend to refer to the pages that he wishes to 24 draw to the attention of the Witness. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this
851 is a tape that we haven't heard before. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's 3 correct, yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's always 5 a question about whether or not to play a tape that we 6 have already heard again, but this is one we haven't 7 heard and I think Ms. Twohig's suggestion might be 8 appropriate in the circumstances that we do -- 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm quite 10 happy to play the whole tape, which we have queued up. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Whatever is -- 13 is convenient and -- and -- and desirable. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I just have 16 excerpted these for -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 18 why you did it and I'm grateful you're trying to move it 19 along. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think that Ms. 21 Twohig is asking My Friend to play the whole tape. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But she's simply 24 saying that it would be helpful if the page number 25 reference was given --
861 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and that the whole 3 transcript be marked as an exhibit with the page number 4 references. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, oh 6 that's fine. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I have no 8 objection to that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 10 you were suggesting that we listen to the whole tape but 11 rather than just excerpts. 12 MS. KIM TWOHIG: No, Mr. Commissioner, 13 just that the entire transcript being made an exhibit. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An exhibit. 15 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Just as one would make 16 an entire letter an exhibit even though a few sentences 17 might be pulled out for purposes of -- of cross- 18 examination. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 I don't think we have any difficulty with that. Do you 21 see any difficulty with that, Mr. Klippenstein? 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: No. In fact 23 I'll -- I'll do even better. I'll suggest they both be 24 made a trans -- exhibits. Two (2) separate transcripts 25 just for convenience.
871 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The full -- 2 the full transcript and the excerpts? 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: The total and 4 the excerpts, yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: The full transcript then, 9 would be P-463. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 463 for the 11 transcript. 12 THE REGISTRAR: That's Inquiry Document 13 20000596, and 20000604. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's actually only the 15 first twenty-nine (29) pages of 20000604 because it's a 16 hundred and fifty-one (151) page document. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-463: Document 2000596 and Document 19 2000604 pages 1 to 29, 20 command post logger synopsis 21 September 06/'95 and 22 transcript 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: And the excerpts, Your 25 Honour, would be P-464.
881 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-464: Excerpts from transcript 2 document 2000604 September 3 6/'95 20:19, Wright calls out 4 to McCabe and audio tape 5 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: And I wonder if 7 the relevant audio .wav files could be part of those 8 transcripts? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Then I'd ask 11 that the third page of the excerpt be played. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 TIM MCCABE: Okay, and then the last thing, when I was 16 talking to Inspector Linton -- 17 MARK WRIGHT: Carson? 18 TIM MCCABE: Well, Linton. 19 MARK WRIGHT: Right. Yeah. 20 TIM MCCABE: Carson wasn't there. But Linton, he 21 agreed that if we were to fax our notice 22 of motion. You know, I mentioned it was 23 getting dark. You fellows may not -- 24 MARK WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. No, no. I know what he said, no 25 way, not now. We're going to -- we're
891 going to war now. We're not going to be 2 serving anybody. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 5 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner Carson, the 6 end of that transcript has Detective Sergeant Mark Wright 7 saying: 8 "We're going to -- we're going to war 9 now. We're not going to be serving 10 anybody." 11 Close quote. Would you agree with me that 12 it's inappropriate and unhelpful for your assistant 13 Detective Sergeant Wright to be characterizing the OPP 14 movements at that point as "going to war"? 15 A: I would prefer he use other 16 terminology. 17 Q: And would you agree with me that that 18 could reasonably be interpreted as indicating an approach 19 to the situation by Detective Sergeant Mark Wright that 20 is a little worrisome? 21 A: I'm not sure I would be worried about 22 that. But I -- I would suggest that he's trying to 23 convey the seriousness of the issue to the -- Mr. McCabe 24 from the Attorney General's office. 25 Q: Did you say you wouldn't be worried
901 about Detective Sergeant Wright using that terminology? 2 A: The fact that he shared -- used that 3 terminology with Mr. McCabe is not particularly 4 worrisome, except that I would prefer he use other 5 terminology. I mean -- I think there's better ways to 6 describe -- describe this than using that terminology. 7 Q: Now would you agree with me that for 8 a Native person who was one (1) of the occupiers at that 9 point in time in the Park, this would be worrisome 10 terminology; would you agree with me that would be a fair 11 expectation? 12 A: If that was a person he was talking 13 to, I would agree. 14 Q: And if that person was listening to 15 this on a scanner, not that I believe anybody was, but if 16 they -- an occupier and protester First Nations person in 17 the Park was hearing that at that point, would you agree 18 with me they would have reason to be very worried? 19 A: It would be very difficult to pick it 20 up on a scanner when we're talking about a telephone 21 conversation, sir. 22 Q: I think you're missing my point of my 23 question, Deputy Commissioner Carson. Would you agree 24 with me that it would be very reasonable for a protester 25 in the Park at that point to be very worried about having
911 the assistant to the -- the incident commander at that 2 point using that kind of terminology about police forces 3 that were moving towards the -- the Park very shortly? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 5 Sandler...? 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Sorry. 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's okay. So the 8 hypothetical is that if somebody could overhear this, 9 which we know they could not overhear -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They 11 couldn't. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- it, would that be 13 worrisome? That's not of assistance of you, I suggest, 14 respectfully. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Commissioner, 17 that wasn't actually my question. I wasn't casting it as 18 a hypothetical, I was asking a question about what was a 19 reasonable interpretation or expectation. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 21 asked that question before. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Pardon me? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 24 that question and I think he answered that, or did he 25 not?
921 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN All right, I'll 2 move on, thank you, Commissioner. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend asked that 7 the .wav files be marked as an exhibit. I would ask that 8 -- that the excerpts -- that they provide a CD with the 9 excerpts and actually the -- their copy of the .wav file 10 that -- from which the excerpts are from so that we have 11 it all on one CD and I suggest that it be made -- that CD 12 be made a -- part of exhibit -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A separate 14 exhibit? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I would make it a 16 part of the last exhibit. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-465. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-465. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, no, 21 465 would be a new exhibit. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What was the last 23 exhibit, Mr. -- 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-464. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: As part of P-464.
931 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you do 2 that -- 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes, we have 4 done that, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've done 6 that already? 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN We have a copy 8 of the CD-ROM -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I think two (2), 11 in fact, and -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Including the -- 14 the entire phone call .wav file and that's the file that 15 -- with the Registrar and copies available that Counsel 16 could copy from, if they wish. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 Yes, Mr. -- 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm just wondering if 20 -- if would be of some assistance in that last excerpt if 21 -- if My Friend would just continue either playing on or 22 reading the portion of the transcript that follows, 23 because I believe that Detective Sergeant Wright does 24 clarify what that terminology means. 25 I can do it in re-examination but I'm sure
941 not sure that the entire context is there, with great 2 respect. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you think 4 it's fair to read the whole excerpt, then perhaps you 5 should read it now. 6 You were reading from page 21, I think you 7 said. The third excerpt you mentioned was at page 21. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What comes 10 after that? 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: If My Friend would 12 just read from the middle of 22, I'd be grateful. And 13 you need to play it, reading it's fine. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I'm just trying 15 to locate that in the -- because I'm not sure it's on 16 page 21. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 21 Q: The -- the comment continues, and 22 when Detective Sergeant Wright says, 23 "We're going to -- we're going to war 24 now. We're not going to be serving 25 anybody."
951 Mr. McCabe asks: 2 "Okay, well, all right. Well, at that 3 time he said yes, but I guess events 4 overtook the..." 5 And Detective Sergeant Wright says: 6 Well, we can try. I mean we can try at 7 CFB Ipperwash at the front gate, but 8 like, my -- my advice to the command 9 staff here is no way, how -- how are we 10 going to take that? Like, I know we 11 just -- you -- how are they going to 12 take that. We just -- we just went to 13 battle within, and we got ten (10) of 14 these guys in custody, but however, by 15 the way, here's an injunction piece of 16 paper." 17 I don't know if -- how far I should read, 18 but -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that far 20 enough for context, Mr. Sandler, for now? You'll go into 21 that, I presume, in your examination? 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, I will. That's 23 fine. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN:
961 Q: Now, I note again, Deputy 2 Commissioner Carson, that in this continuation Mr. Wright 3 is saying -- well, I'll repeat that, he says, quote: 4 "How are they going to take that, like 5 I know we just -- we just went to 6 battle within and we got ten (10) of 7 these guys in custody. But however, by 8 the way, here's an injunction piece of 9 paper." 10 Now, would you agree with me that that 11 seems to be suggesting that Detective Sergeant Wright is 12 again using the metaphor of battle and furthermore he's 13 contemplating ten (10) arrests and then he's saying, that 14 won't be a conducive situation to serving a piece of 15 paper, that's what he reasonably appears to be saying, is 16 that right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And would you agree with me that it 19 demonstrates a very real problem here when the OPP 20 operation is being characterized as a "battle" and 21 Detective Sergeant Wright is talking about arresting ten 22 (10) people and yet we're supposed to be containing and 23 negotiating. 24 Would you agree with me that there's a bit 25 of a sharp dissidence there?
971 A: What -- what I would suggest, sir, is 2 that if you take into context what the officers 3 experienced on the evening of September 4th, that is 4 probably where he's drawing his inference as to if they 5 try to go down and make the arrest, there is going to be 6 another confrontation. 7 I don't suspect that Mark Wright believes 8 that if they walk down there and say, Sir, you're under 9 arrest, that there's going to be willful compliance and 10 come along with the police and -- and continue the 11 arrest. I'm sure he believes if they go down there and 12 try to take any action, there is going to be a 13 confrontation of sorts. 14 So, I mean, what I see here is a 15 hypothetical context to this, but what he says, this is 16 what his advice is to his superiors. 17 Q: Would you agree with me that this is 18 -- to -- to say this is hypothetical is, perhaps, mis- 19 characterizing it, unintentionally, of course, but 20 Detective Sergeant Wright is giving this as a reason for 21 declining to server papers as Mr. McCabe has -- has -- 22 has suggested. 23 So, Detective Sergeant Wright has not 24 engaged in a hypothetical debate, he's saying to -- to 25 Mr. McCabe, We're not going to serve papers because we
981 are, quote unquote, "going to battle" and we may have ten 2 (10) of these guys in custody and therefore we don't want 3 to serve injunction papers. 4 Isn't that what he seems to be conveying? 5 A: He's suggesting this is what may 6 happen and he doesn't have -- he feels it wouldn't be 7 appropriate or capable of serving those papers, is what I 8 understand. 9 And, the other part that you must realize, 10 is Detective Sergeant Wright unilaterally does not have 11 the authority to deploy a crowd management team. There's 12 no way a crowd management team is going to be deployed on 13 Detective Sergeant Wright's authority, it will come from 14 an incident commander. So -- 15 Q: I anticipate, Deputy Commissioner 16 Carson, that we will hear evidence that, in fact, the 17 idea of using a crowd management unit that night was Mark 18 Wright's? 19 A: Well, he may be the one that came up 20 with the idea and he can come up with as many ideas as he 21 likes. The decision to deploy and how they're utilized 22 will come from an incident commander. 23 Q: Would you agree with me that there 24 may be some connection between what we've just heard, 25 namely the references by Detective Sergeant Mark Wright
991 to "going to war", "going to battle", "bringing the 2 marines down" and the evidence that I anticipate that it 3 was Mark Wright who first thought of bringing a riot 4 squad down? 5 A: I don't know if he was the first one 6 that thought of it. 7 Q: I'm -- I'm -- I'm suggesting to you 8 the evidence of Detective Sergeant Mark Wright at 9 discovery will be that he was the first one, in his 10 admission, to, as far as he knows, suggest a CMU or a 11 riot squad. 12 Do you have any reason to disagree with 13 that evidence? 14 A: No, sir. He's -- he's certainly 15 well-versed in all the various capabilities of those 16 teams and it may be that he's raised that point and put 17 it forward as one (1) of the options that should be 18 considered. And that's certainly something he should do. 19 Q: And would you agree with me that it's 20 a little bit of concern if we -- if we have somebody who 21 brings forward the idea of using a riot squad, which has 22 never been in the plan before, and then starts talking 23 about going to battle with it and -- and going to war? 24 A: The person who brings it forward 25 didn't create the circumstances that are being faced at
1001 the moment. You have to deal with the circumstances as 2 they occur and make your best judgements at the time and 3 use the appropriate strategy given what you're facing at 4 that moment. 5 You -- as much as you'd like to sit in a 6 room and do planning and plan every eventuality, it 7 simply doesn't happen, it's not possible, and there are 8 always going to be circumstances beyond your control. 9 And you need people there who are well-versed in all the 10 various options available to you so that you use the best 11 tool given the circumstances you face at any given 12 moment. 13 Q: Well, you said that -- that the 14 individual didn't create the circumstances. And yet what 15 we have here is Detective Sergeant Mark Wright, who said 16 in the first interview that we looked at, that when he 17 was down at the parking lot by the Park, he saw a number 18 of individuals and four (4) or five (5) of them that had 19 clubs but he says it was dark and I was too far away; "I 20 couldn't be sure what they were." 21 And then he said to you, and you accepted 22 and believed that there were eight (8) individuals with 23 eight (8) baseball bats. 24 A: Correct. And if I'd have got down 25 with the crowd management team down to the MNR TOC site
1011 and the information back from the observer team there was 2 nobody in the parking lot, we'd have all packed up our 3 kit and went home that night. 4 Q: And if you'd found out, by double 5 checking, that some of the information that had brought 6 out the CMU in the first place was fatally flawed, would 7 you agree that you should have said, Hold everything, 8 everybody stop and go home, there's no need for us to do 9 this. 10 A: As the record shows, Mr. 11 Klippenstein, we had observer teams in place that was 12 feeding information back to myself when I was sitting in 13 the front seat of the TRU team TOC vehicle before the 14 team moved off the site at the TOC site. 15 So regardless of the events that led up to 16 it, there was activity in that parking lot that resulted 17 in the deployment of that crowd management team at that 18 moment. 19 Q: Well, I said earlier I was going to 20 look at some other aspects of what happened in that time 21 frame between when Detective Sergeant Mark Wright left 22 the -- the crowd and when he called you and we heard the 23 calling out of TRU. And I'd like to do that, except, 24 Commissioner, I don't know what intention -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think
1021 we'll go at least to one o'clock -- 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN All right, thank 3 you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I suggest 5 you continue. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 10 Q: I will anticipate that -- or I do 11 anticipate, Deputy Commissioner Carson, that we will hear 12 evidence that Detective Sergeant Mark Wright, after 13 leaving the corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway, 14 right at the entrance to the Ipperwash Park, travelled 15 southbound towards the first checkpoint which would be, 16 subject to check, checkpoint Charlie or "C." 17 Do you have any reason not to -- not to 18 accept that? 19 A: No, that's fair. 20 Q: And I anticipate the evidence will be 21 that -- the evidence of Detective Sergeant Mark Wright 22 will be that, at the first checkpoint going south, which 23 is checkpoint "C", we'll assume, he mentioned to the 24 individuals there something about what he'd seen in the 25 Park or in this parking lot that he'd just come from,
1031 right? 2 Is that -- do you have any reason to 3 disagree with that? 4 A: I don't know what he said to them. 5 Q: Okay. I'll ask you further questions 6 about that later. But I anticipate, then, the evidence 7 will be that he left that checkpoint, travelled farther 8 south to the second checkpoint and at that checkpoint was 9 advised that someone had attended at the checkpoint he 10 just left who'd had their car damaged by First Nation 11 individuals at the sandy parking lot. 12 Does that general statement conform to 13 your understanding of the facts? 14 A: That could be how it played out. I 15 know there was a car damaged. In my mind, I had a sense 16 that the car was damaged before Mark Wright went around 17 the corner, but I could be mistaken. 18 Q: All right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, I'm going to ask you some more 23 questions about some of the anticipated documentary 24 evidence on that car damage issue a little later. But I 25 then anticipate that the -- the evidence of Detective
1041 Sergeant Mark Wright will be that he left that second 2 checkpoint going south, heading for the command post and 3 made a radio call to the command post in to relation -- 4 in relation to some of the things he had just heard and 5 seen. 6 Does that conform to your understanding of 7 the evidence? 8 A: I don't know if he did that or not. 9 Q: All right. We've -- we've had 10 introduced as evidence before, a series of typed notes of 11 proceedings at the command post. I believe you went 12 through those in some detail; is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that's at -- those are Exhibit P- 15 426, Document 1002419 and we have an excerpt of that 16 included in the document book at page -- at Tab 1; do you 17 see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. And 20 Commissioner, I wonder if I could have that page marked 21 as an exhibit for convenience? 22 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P-465. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-465: Excerpts from Document 25 1002419, Exhibit P-426 pages
1051 73-74, 19:50 hrs to 20:29 hrs 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 4 Q: And if you look at the entry for 5 19:55 hours you see a reference to: 6 "Mark Wright reports via police radio 7 ten (10) Natives with baseball bats 8 near the road who apparently had 9 damaged a private vehicle." 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now can I, again, suggest that what 13 we have here is a communication to the command post; 14 that's what it is, right? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And we have Mark Wright reporting ten 17 (10) Natives with baseball bats. And would you agree 18 with me that it's reasonable to -- to expect people in 19 the command post to believe, just as you did, that when 20 Mark Wright made this report he meant ten (10) Natives 21 with ten (10) baseball bats? Just the same way when he 22 used that terminology you believed eight (8) Natives with 23 eight (8) baseball bats? 24 A: Fair enough. 25 Q: So we now have a report coming into
1061 the command post that would appear to suggest that there 2 were ten (10) Natives, all with baseball bats; right? 3 A: That's what it looks like. 4 Q: And would you agree with me, based on 5 the other transcripts of the interview that we just 6 looked at of Mark Wright, there is a contrast between 7 those two (2). 8 And it would appear that this 9 communication to the command post may have left a very 10 erroneous impression; is that fair? 11 A: ItÆs possible. 12 Q: In fact it's probable, isn't it? 13 A: Well, you -- 14 Q: Just -- just like you understood 15 eight (8) Natives with eight (8) baseball bats to have -- 16 to be a communication of eight (8) bats, would that -- 17 A: I only qualify that because I -- I 18 didn't hear the transcript if he, in fact, transmitted 19 ten (10). If he transmitted ten (10) over the radio, and 20 I'm assuming because it's in the command post minutes 21 thatÆs û- it was ten (10). So if you were verifying the 22 accuracy of the transmission, then yes. 23 Q: All right. Now I believe that a 24 recording was made of that phone -- or rather radio call 25 and I'd like to have that played. I believe we have a
1071 transcript of that radio call based on that recording. 2 And if you'll give me a moment I can 3 locate it in the document book we provided to you. And 4 that's, I believe, at Tab 19. 5 Now I'm going to ask that this radio 6 excerpt be played and made an exhibit, but would you 7 agree with me -- well, I'll play it first and then I'll 8 ask about the timing. 9 So you have the transcript before you 10 perhaps at Tab 19? 11 A: I'm sorry? 12 Q: You have the transcript or a 13 transcript before you at Tab 19? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: And for clarity this was prepared not 16 by the OPP or Commission staff but by -- by my office. 17 A: That's fine. 18 Q: And you can question me on my 19 credibility after this. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Yes, Mr. Millar: 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There are actually 23 just -- this transmission is at 19:50 then the next 24 transmission is 19:52. It's track number 1952 on the 25 tracks, I believe, that we provided to My Friends and we
1081 provided a transcript as well. But I think there was a 2 mis-communication between Mr. Vilko Zbogar and -- about 3 the transcript that we provided. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I apologise, 5 thank you, that's very helpful. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 11 Q: We'll -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So the times are -- 13 there's no -- there's no time on this transcript, but the 14 times are -- the first part's 19:52, according to the 15 logger ticket information we were provided, 19:50, excuse 16 me, and then the second part of this call is, because I 17 believe they've -- they've got it as one (1) call, is 18 19:52. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, there 20 seems to be a time on here. Am I reading the wrong time? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The time on this 22 document that you've got in front of you is elapsed time, 23 it's not real time. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So the real time is
1091 19:50 for the one (1) part and 19:52 for the second part. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 Just for my own context, these are still events that 4 occurred while the Inspector was not there; right? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 7 while the Deputy Commissioner, the then inspector, was 8 not there? 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yeah, there's 10 too many commissioners around, it confuses me as well. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well that's 12 fine, that's fine. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 15 Q: I, at this point, would just ask that 16 the -- an excerpt from the second page be played just to 17 not unnecessarily take up time. And this is, Deputy 18 Commissioner Carson, near the bottom of the second page 19 of the transcript at Tab 19. 20 21 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you 24 increase the volume a bit? 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN We're trying.
1101 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED - TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 2:56 on excerpt (8:49:09 Logger Tape Running Time) 6 MW: Command Post from Sgt. Wright, Command 7 Post from Sgt. Wright. 8 CP: Go ahead, Sgt. Wright, here's Command 9 Post. 10 MW: Yeah, we got about up to 8 individuals at 11 the picnic table area, I assume you know 12 what that is, and they're just about on 13 the edge of the road, they got some bats 14 and stuff in their hands, and apparently 15 they've damaged some individual's vehicle, 16 so we got some mischief right now or 17 willful damage. I talked to them for 18 awhile, they weren't sure who I was, and 19 it appears to me, it appears to me that 20 they're up to something. So, can you talk 21 to your ERT guy in there with the 22 Inspector, I'm on my way back, I'll give 23 you a full rep when I get back, but I 24 think we should be moving some people down 25 that way. I think we should be moving
1111 some people down that way. I am 10 away, 2 10 minutes away, from the Command Post. 3 CP That's 10-4, Lima One is standing right by 4 here and heard it all, and so did the 5 Inspector. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 8 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner Carson, I'd 9 just like to go over some of what I heard in that tape. 10 And first of all, I gather from the time that -- that My 11 Friend, Mr. Millar has assigned to this, this appears to 12 be approximately 19:52 or slightly thereafter and would 13 appear to be the radio call that we just saw in the 14 scribe notes, at approximately 19:55, give or take? 15 A: That's -- that appears to be correct. 16 Q: And that's about 7:55 p.m. on 17 September 6th; is that right? 18 A: Right, right. 19 Q: And he makes some mention to the 20 individuals that he saw, or least he seems to say he saw, 21 down at the sandy parking lot; is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And he refers to bats and then he 24 says -- he says, quote: 25 "It appears to me -- it appears to me
1121 that they're up to something. So can 2 you talk to your ERT guy in there with 3 the Inspector? 4 I'm on my way back. I'll give you a 5 full rep when I get back, but I think 6 we should be moving some people down 7 that way. I think we should be moving 8 some people down that way." End of 9 quote. 10 Now, we discussed a few minutes ago, 11 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright's supposed, I'm suggesting 12 to you, in the future evidence that it was he who first 13 came up with the idea of a CMU or a riot squad. And you 14 pointed out that he didn't have the authority to do any 15 of -- any such thing. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 17 Sandler...? 18 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm sorry, and I -- I 19 apologize for rising here -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- but I'm not sure 22 that that's clear on the public record what -- what has 23 transpired. This appears to relate to the scribe note. 24 The scribe note appears to have gotten it wrong. The 25 scribe notes appears to have attributed to Staff Sergeant
1131 Wright, a description of ten (10) people when the actual 2 playing of the tape is up to eight (8) people. 3 So, I'm just a little bit concerned that 4 the record is somewhat confused, because the questions 5 that were being put before the tape was played to Deputy 6 Commissioner Carson was, you know, if Mark Wright is 7 saying that there's ten (10) people there, then -- then 8 that's another misleading aspect and it's incorrect and 9 all of that. 10 So, the -- the premise of all of that 11 might well have been put after the actual radio 12 transmission -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- was played for the 15 Witness. So unless I'm missing something there, I'm a 16 little bit concerned about the state of the record. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We may have 18 to explain that later on, but you're reading right from 19 the scribe note on the one (1) hand and right from the 20 tape on the other, the fact that they're not consistent 21 it appears, or may not be, we may have to explain that at 22 some point. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, I -- 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just so long as it's 25 clear and it's not a criticism of My Friend.
1141 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 2 right. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: I just wanted it to be 4 clear that, I mean, he was putting questions based upon 5 this is what Mark Wright said in the radio transmission 6 and criticism can be directed to the scribe note -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- but that's not what 9 Mark Wright said. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It appears 11 now from the thing that he was -- I think we all heard 12 it, it said up to eight (8) individuals. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 15 Q: And certainly, Commissioner, if it's 16 not clear already, it certainly is our concern that there 17 appear to be differences in the records and the 18 statements at various times about how many people there 19 were and what they carried. And My Friend has just 20 pointed out certainly something that would be another 21 example that would cause us concern. 22 And -- and as -- as you suggested, I hope 23 we can clarify it at some later point. But let me go 24 back to the quote that I was referring you to and I'd 25 like to read it again. It says, quote:
1151 "It appears to me -- it appears to me 2 that they're up to something. So, can 3 you talk to your ERT guy in there with 4 the inspector. I'm on my way back. 5 I'll give you a full rep when I get 6 back, but I think we should be moving 7 some people down that way. I think we 8 should be moving some people down that 9 way." End of quote. 10 Now -- well, I'll -- first of all, 11 would you agree with me that this appears to be a radio 12 transmission that Detective Sergeant Wright made while 13 heading back to the command post, because that's what he 14 says, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And he says he's ten (10) minutes 17 away and given the context, it appears to fit with my 18 suggestion of anticipated evidence that he's making this 19 transmission after he left the second checkpoint near 20 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road; that fits, correct? 21 A: That's fair. 22 Q: And it appears to have been made 23 after he got information about damage to an individual's 24 vehicle, because that what he says; right? 25 A: Correct.
1161 Q: And would you agree with me that from 2 the way he phrases it, it is possible that there were two 3 (2) incidents that could be interpreted as being one (1) 4 incident? 5 In other words, it is possible that there 6 was the incident in which Detective Sergeant Wright 7 personally was at the sandy parking lot and talked to 8 some people. 9 And secondly, there was an incident after 10 heÆd left in which somebody else's car was damaged. And 11 both of those are mentioned in this excerpt, but they 12 could be interpreted as -- as having been one (1), based 13 on this very quick radio transmission 14 Does that seem possible or even probably 15 to you? 16 A: I think it's a stretch. 17 Q: You think it's a stretch? All right. 18 Would you agree with me that however you -- 19 A: And -- and I'll just qualify that 20 because he says it sounds, Apparently, they damaged 21 somebody's car. So it doesn't appear that he has direct 22 involvement in the apparent damage. So I -- I'm just 23 kind of stretching how you would put that into all one 24 (1) event. 25 Q: Well, that suggests to me and that's
1171 one reason why I asked the question, it suggests to me 2 that he is talking about individuals he saw. Then he's 3 also talking about, you've raised the word "apparently"-- 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: -- damage to a vehicle. So he's not 6 seeming to suggest that he personally saw the vehicle 7 damaged. 8 A: I would agree, yes. 9 Q: Right. Which suggests that if the 10 evidence shows that, as I suggested earlier, he saw some 11 people down at the parking lot. After he left he heard 12 reports through the checkpoints that somebody else's 13 vehicle had been damaged. 14 And he's put those two (2) incidents into 15 this report and whether he knows or not and he probably 16 does know, that these are two (2) incidents, the way he 17 phrases it here could leave the impression that it was 18 one (1)? 19 A: That's great speculation, sir. I -- 20 I really don't -- I can't take a position on it one (1) 21 way or the other, quite frankly. 22 Q: Fair enough. I'll -- I'll move one. 23 But what he does seem to say, very clearly, based on what 24 he's just talked about, is that, quote: 25 "I think we should be moving some
1181 people down that way." 2 A: Yes, he does. 3 Q: And he repeats that twice; right? 4 A: Yes, he does. 5 Q: And further more, the person 6 receiving the transmission at the command post takes it 7 upon himself or herself to say: 8 "Lima 1 is standing right by here and 9 heard it all and so did the Inspector." 10 Right? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: So the command post recipient makes 13 sure that Mark Wright knows that that message has gone to 14 the inspector? 15 A: That sounds like what he wanted done. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: So what we have here is Detective 19 Sergeant Mark Wright saying, he thinks that the OPP 20 should be moving some people down there; right? 21 A: Well, sure. 22 Q: And the people in the command post 23 know that Detective Sergeant Mark Wright is your 24 assistant; correct? 25 A: Yes.
1191 Q: And they know that Detective Sergeant 2 Mark Wright has a very long working relationship with you 3 and one that I think both you and he have described as a 4 good working relationship; is that right? 5 A: Yeah. He's -- he's a very positive 6 quality police officer. 7 Q: So what he says has some credibility 8 in the eyes of people in the command post? 9 A: I would hope so. 10 Q: Yeah. And when he says: 11 "We should be moving some people down 12 that way." 13 He's talking not about passers by off the 14 sidewalk, he's talking about OPP officers; right? 15 A: Of course. 16 Q: And by referring to, "people down 17 that way," he's talking about down by the Park; right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So he is saying that he thinks the 20 OPP should move some officers down to the Park; right? 21 A: Yes. But before you leave that, I -- 22 I don't think you can take that in context without 23 understanding here he says: 24 "I'm on my way back I'll give you a 25 full rep when I get back."
1201 What he's saying there is, he's going to 2 give the incident commander the full disclosure of what 3 he knows when he gets back. What he's identifying is, he 4 thinks there's some issues here that need to be addressed 5 and he thinks we need to move some people to address it. 6 And as soon as I get back to the office or 7 to the command post, I'm going to share with you what all 8 the concerns are. So what he's doing is -- is trying to 9 help them understand that he's -- he has a concern and 10 he's on his way in to explain it away. 11 Q: When you say: 12 "He's telling them, he's helping them 13 understand that he has a concern." 14 I suggest to you that's not what these 15 words are conveying. It says: 16 "I think we should be moving." 17 He's using words that seem to suggest he's 18 made up his mind; isn't that right? 19 A: Well, he probably has made up his 20 mind what he thinks should be done. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: But as I explained before and I will 23 continue to point out, is that it is not his decision of 24 how we deploy crowd management, TRU, or any other 25 specialty unit. The incident commander will take the
1211 information, whether it's from Mark Wright or a whole 2 host of sources and make the decision based on all of the 3 information. 4 Q: But what we have here, and I don't -- 5 you know, you may be quite correct, but what we have here 6 is your credible assistant conveying to the Inspector in 7 the command post, that he, Detective Sergeant Wright, has 8 his mind made up as to what he thinks should be done. 9 And he's the only one who's been down to see it because 10 he went by himself, and he thinks that the OPP should be 11 moving some officers down to the Park. 12 That's what he's conveying; isn't that 13 right? 14 A: Given his experience, he's entitled 15 to his opinion and it's probably a fair opinion. 16 Q: And that's what he's telling them; 17 right? 18 A: And so he should. 19 Q: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 21 would be -- 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Commissioner, I 23 don't know if this is a good time to take a lunch break? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 25 would be a good time to take a break.
1221 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 2 adjourned until 2:15. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 2:16 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed, please be seated. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, Mr. 10 Klippenstein and I have just -- the transcript at Tab 19, 11 which is the one that was played just before lunch, at 12 page 2, there are some minor corrections that Mr. Zbogar 13 worked out. Our transcript was a little different than 14 their transcript. And with Mr. Klippenstein's permission 15 we thought we would just put them on the record. 16 And, it's page 2 on the upper third, the 17 second "MW" where it says: 18 "Okay. 10-4." 19 And it should read: 20 I think you've [U-apostrophe-V-E] got 21 Sammy Pool down there?" 22 Instead of, You got Sammy Pool. 23 And then, in the second line, "gear" 24 should be "Sierra." 25 Then, at the excerpt at the bottom, the
1231 third line down of the second MW that starts: 2 "Yeah. We've got --" 3 About update individuals. 4 The third line down after, "some" there 5 should be -- there's two (2) -- ah -- ah -- and then, 6 "an" -- A-N. And in that same line, it's: 7 "We've [W-E-apostrophe-V-E] got some 8 mischief right now." 9 And then, in the second last line, it's -- 10 where it says, "almost ten (10) away," it should be, "I 11 am about ten (10) away." 12 And, I believe that Mr. Klippenstein 13 wanted to mark that as the next exhibit and -- which 14 would be... 15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-466, Your 16 Honour. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the .wav file 18 should be, I think -- the -- the disk with CD with the 19 .wav file on it should be part of that. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-466: Transcript and CD of excerpts 22 of radio transmissions at 23 19:50 hrs, Sept 06/95 24 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you,
1241 Commissioner 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you very 6 much, Mr. Millar, that was very helpful. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 11 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, we were 12 reviewing the taped transcripts and audio excerpt from 13 the logger tape, which is now Exhibit P-466, I believe, 14 before the lunch break. And I'd like to follow up on 15 some questions from that. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: I'd discussed with you the fact that 20 Detective Sergeant Wright said, quote: 21 "I think we should be moving some 22 people down that way." Close quote. 23 And you suggested that that was his 24 opinion, but that he didn't have an -- any authority to - 25 - I -- I can't remember your exact words, but to give
1251 orders or give directions or something like that? 2 A: Well, I -- I guess just to put 3 context to it, he does have the authority to assemble a 4 crowd management unit. Can he move a few officers from 5 one (1) checkpoint to another? Sure, not a problem, but 6 for a -- an operation such as a crowd management unit 7 operation would require the incident commander to approve 8 and direct that. 9 Q: All right. I'd -- I'd like to look 10 at that. I'd like to look at that, first of all, by 11 referring to what I anticipate the evidence will show as 12 the testimony of Deputy Sergeant Wright at the court 13 hearing of the injunction that occurred the day after the 14 mobilization, if you will, of the OPP at Ipperwash Park 15 on September 6th. In other words the injunction that was 16 heard on September 7th, 1995. 17 Now Detective -- Detective Sergeant Wright 18 testified at that injunction hearing? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Correct? 21 A: Yes, he did. Yes. 22 Q: And he did so at your direction, I 23 understand? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And the injunction was not being
1261 sought by the police. It was being sought by one (1) or 2 two (2) ministries; is that right? 3 A: The Ministry of Natural Resources. 4 Q: Right. And perhaps also the Ministry 5 of the Attorney General I -- not a big deal but -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- and I'll be asking you some 8 questions about -- about that injunction later. But I've 9 included an excerpt from Detective Sergeant Wright's 10 testimony to that court on the issue of the holding back 11 of the day shift of the ERT. 12 And if you could turn to Tab 18 of the 13 document book. And this is an excerpt from the court 14 proceedings before the Honourable Mr. Justice Daudlin at 15 Sarnia, Ontario on the 7th day of September 1995. 16 It's just a few pages at this point for 17 brevity. I wonder, Commissioner, if I could have this 18 marked as an exhibit, for convenience. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-467, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-467. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-467: Document 1011152 excerpts 23 from Honourable Mr. Justice 24 Daudlin's Ontario Court 25 (General Division)
1271 proceedings September 07/'95 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 4 front 5 -- it's the style of cause or a front page and the two 6 (2) or three (3) pages? 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. The 8 Decision certainly was longer than two (2) pages. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So I've 11 excerpted pages and obviously the rest of the Decision is 12 relevant -- is available. I believe it's been produced 13 to other counsel and certainly it's been available -- 14 freely available. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 17 Q: That's Tab 18 of the document book 18 and Deputy Commissioner Wright if I can direct your 19 attention to page 28 and the first question on the page 20 and I'll read about -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, it's part of 22 Inquiry Document 1011152 for the benefit of My Friends. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1011152? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 25 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank goodness
1281 somebody's on top of things around here. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 4 Q: The first question on that page 5 begins: 6 "This all happened on the right-of- 7 way." 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I'll just read down through a 11 couple of questions because that deals with the issue 12 that I've raised before you which is the holding back of 13 the day shift. 14 "Q: This all happened on the right- 15 of-way of the Township road, did it? 16 A: Yes, sir, it did. Right on the 17 pavement. So what I did was I went 18 immediately to the command post which 19 is located at the Forest OPP Detachment 20 in the village of Forest. Forest OPP 21 Detachment is no longer a working 22 general duties OPP Detachment. 23 The entire building is now a command 24 post and the officers have been 25 billeted to other Detachments for
1291 normal duties. And I related this 2 information to the incident commander 3 and explained my concern about this. 4 What took place then was it happened to 5 be shift change and the officers that 6 are doing point duty there are on 7 twelve (12) hour rotations, twenty-four 8 (24) coming on, twenty-four (24) coming 9 off at that particular time 10 approximately. 11 Q: At what hour would this be last 12 night? 13 A: This would be -- they were being 14 briefed. So it would be 7:30, 15 something right around there. And they 16 would normally have been gone but I 17 radioed ahead about my concern and the 18 sergeant in charge of the briefing felt 19 it prudent to hold these officers in 20 case we needed some more people. They 21 would normally have been gone. So I 22 got there and I explained to the 23 incident commander of what the 24 situation was." 25 Now I would just like to direct your
1301 attention to the sentence that says: 2 "And they would normally have been gone 3 but I radioed ahead about my concern." 4 Stopping there for a moment. That sounds 5 like Detective Sergeant Wright might be referring to the 6 phone call we just heard in which he said -- described 7 some things heÆd just seen and heard and said what he 8 thought should happen; is that right? 9 A: Yeah. I believe we're talking about 10 a radio call? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then continuing in this 14 transcript, he says, quote: 15 "And the Sergeant in charge of the 16 briefing felt it prudent to hold these 17 officers in case we needed some more 18 people." 19 End of quote. Now, would you agree with 20 me that that testimony from Detective Sergeant Wright 21 makes it sound as if the decision to hold back those 22 officers on the day shift was not Detective Sergeant 23 Wright's, it was the Sergeant in charge; is that -- is 24 that a fair interpretation of that? 25 A: That's -- that what you would take
1311 from this commentary -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: û- yes. 4 Q: Right. And the sergeant in charge, 5 would that have been Korosec at the time? 6 A: There -- 7 Q: Charge -- 8 A: û- there was likely two (2) 9 sergeants, I believe for that. Well, actually there 10 would be four (4), there would be two (2) -- two (2) for 11 each unit, so it could have been any one (1) of the four 12 (4) supervisors. 13 Q: All right. And I believe I've seen 14 somewhere that the evidence will be that it was, I guess, 15 Sergeant Korosec was the overall co-ordinating leader of 16 the ERT at that point, is that -- 17 A: Well -- and during the day shift, I 18 believe Korosec was fulfilling that role and Sergeant 19 Graham (phonetic) was working with him, I believe. 20 Q: I see, okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Then -- and again, I have in mind the 25 discussion you and I had about what the effect would have
1321 been in during the radio in-call of Detective Sergeant 2 Wright 3 saying, I think we should send some people down there. 4 I'd like to ask you to turn, again, to Tab 5 34 which is the taped interview of acting Detective Staff 6 Sergeant Mark Wright, dated September 12th, '95, although 7 I see subsequent pages seem to be dated September 8th, 8 which is now Exhibit P-462. 9 And if you could turn to page 14 of that 10 interview. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Near the top it begins: 15 "I then attempted -- " 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I'll just read a couple of sentences 19 there to the end of that paragraph, quote: 20 "I then attempted to contact the 21 command post and advise them of the 22 situation. However, the communications 23 equipment wasn't working very well and 24 I couldn't get through, so I just 25 travelled straight to the Forest
1331 Detachment where the command post was 2 set up. And when I got there, and this 3 would be just shortly -- shortly after 4 -- some time after eight o'clock, I -- 5 what I did was, there was a number of - 6 - there was two (2) full ERT teams in 7 the garage of Forest Detachment being - 8 - being debriefed. 9 They were the day shift and I 10 instructed Sergeant Stan Korosec who 11 was ERT team leader to hold those 12 people on shift; that we may have need 13 for them." 14 Close quote. Now, the first thing I'd 15 like to ask about or mention is that there appears to be 16 an issue in that statement about communications not 17 working and yet we've heard a radio call. 18 But I take it that there was some problem, 19 some calls were dropped and there was some mis- 20 communications with cell phones and so forth. So it -- 21 that may not be inconsistent with him getting a partial 22 radio call through; is that fair? 23 A: Well, I guess the difficulty when you 24 start talking communications, we need to be very specific 25 about which communications, because cellular
1341 communications is certainly problematic in this whole 2 area along the lake shore and in regards to radio 3 communication, it could depend on the particular vehicle 4 being used, et cetera. 5 So there's a number of issues that could 6 cause radio interference. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: So if we're talking about radio 9 transmissions, it -- it depends on so many factors, it 10 would be very difficult to pinpoint it just from -- from 11 a transcript. 12 Q: Right. And that wasn't the main 13 point of my question, but the next question that I put to 14 you or ask you to comment on, was the next sentence where 15 it says, or the sentence after that where -- after he's 16 described two (2) ERT teams in the garage being 17 debriefed, he says, quote: 18 "They were day shift. And I instructed 19 Sergeant Stan Korosec, who was ERT team 20 leader, to hold those people on shift, 21 that may have need for them." 22 Close quote. What I noticed there is that 23 he says he instructed Sergeant Korosec to hold them back. 24 Now, when you and I looked at the radio 25 communication and I asked you about Detective Sergeant
1351 Wright saying what he thought should happen, you 2 commented that that may be his opinion. 3 But I suggest to you what we have here, 4 apparently, from the evidence we anticipate from Mark 5 Wright, is that he instructed Korosec to hold back two 6 (2) full teams. That's what -- 7 A: I -- I would agree, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, you've just said that your view 11 was that Detective Sergeant Wright maybe had authority to 12 move a few people between checkpoints -- 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: -- but not to do a major move and I 15 think you said, you know, initiate the CMU. 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: But what we have here is something 18 close to that. We have him holding back two (2) full 19 teams on -- from a day shift; fair? 20 A: No, it's not fair. 21 Q: Why -- why do you disagree? 22 A: Because what he's asked is that the 23 officers be held there pending as you go on in -- in this 24 particular transcript you're referring to. I then went 25 into the command post and advised Inspector Dale Linton,
1361 who's now the onsite commander, what had taken place. 2 So the decision of whether they actually 3 deploy those personnel that you're referring to, would 4 have to be approved by the incident commander. It's 5 certainly appropriate for him to ask that those people 6 remain there if there's some potential that they're going 7 to be required. 8 I mean, it makes no sense to relieve them 9 from duty, send them to various motels in the general 10 area and then have to call them back if there's a -- a 11 need for them. 12 Q: But certainly he certainly had enough 13 of Sergeant Korosec's attention and the attention of 14 thirty (30) people who just worked twelve (12) hours -- 15 twelve (12) hour shifts that when he said -- he 16 instructed them to stay back, they did; right? 17 A: And -- and they would be expected to 18 do that. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: That -- that's fair, yeah. 21 Q: Okay. So, when Detective Sergeant 22 Wright said, I think something should happen, that 23 carried a significant amount of weight? 24 A: Well, that -- that would depend on -- 25 on his discussion with Inspector Linton, which he has to
1371 carry that out first. 2 Q: But he certainly carried enough 3 weight to hold thirty (30) people back? 4 A: Sure. 5 Q: Then, if you could turn in the 6 document book to... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: ...Tab 21. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And that's an excerpt from the 15 Examination for Discovery of Mark Wright and I've just 16 included an excerpt here on this issue. 17 And perhaps for convenience, Commissioner, 18 I could have that marked as an exhibit? The date of the 19 Discovery excerpt is June 28th, 2001. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-468, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-468. I 22 just want to identify what it is, it's... 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: It's a -- the 24 exhibit -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A few pages
1381 of... 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 4 to name the pages so we know what they are? 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes, thank 6 you. Exhibit P-468 is a Discovery -- Examination for 7 Discovery excerpt of Mark Wright on the 28th day of June 8 and the excerpt consists of the first few pages plus -- 9 it actually includes pages 150 -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 154. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- to 159. 12 And if you could turn to -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's now 14 Exhibit number 468? I'm sorry, is that now Exhibit 15 number 468? 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is, Your Honour, 17 468. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-468: Examination for Discovery 20 excerpt of Mark Wright Pages 21 150 to 159 June 28/'01 22 Ontario Superior Court of 23 Justice, Toronto, court file 24 No. 96-CU-99569 25
1391 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: If you could turn to page 156 at 3 question 466 or line 13, 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: At question 466, or line 13, the 8 question is asked, quote: 9 ôQ: And how did you communicate to 10 the Forest base your idea or suggestion 11 or command that the ERT shift that was 12 about to go off, not go off? 13 A: Well, it would either be by cell 14 phone or radio, but I can't recall 15 which one. I know it was Sergeant 16 Korosec I spoke to. 17 Q: Okay. And how would you 18 characterize that communication of 19 yours? Was it a suggestion or a 20 command or an idea or... 21 A: As far as to hold the ERT team? 22 Q: Yes. Were you in a position to 23 command it and did command it at that 24 time? 25 A: Well, I think command is somewhat
1401 of a harsh term. Korosec and I -- 2 Korosec was looking after the ERT team. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: And certainly, in the scheme of 5 things, on that plan -- on that -- on 6 the plan, Korosec would report through 7 to me and to the incident commander. 8 So I mean, certainly -- 9 Q: I don't want to use -- 10 A: I appreciate what you're getting 11 at and I'm just trying to be accurate 12 here. Certainly, I didn't suggest to 13 Stan Korosec that ERT teams be held, I 14 told them to hold the teams. 15 Q: Okay. So it was your decision to 16 hold the teams? 17 A: I guess. That would be fair." 18 Now, again, Deputy Commissioner Carson, 19 what we have, it would appear from the evidence that I 20 anticipate, that Detective Sergeant Wright certainly 21 takes the position that he made the decision to hold the 22 teams back and that he told Stan Korosec to hold them 23 back. 24 And I take it you don't disagree that's 25 what he could do, subject to...
1411 A: No, I agree with what you're -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: -- imposing, yes. 4 Q: Subject to further confirmation 5 from -- 6 A: Well, Sergeant Wright is the person 7 who has the answer to that question exactly how that took 8 place, but from what we see here, it looks like Wright 9 ordered them to be held, and that's fine. 10 Q: And I have a bit of a problem, 11 because the last two (2) excerpts that I read to you make 12 it, or appear to make it clear, that it was Detective 13 Sergeant Wright who said hold back the day shift. 14 But in the first excerpt I read to you 15 from the court proceedings on September 7th, Detective 16 Sergeant Wright seems to say it was the decision of the 17 Sergeant and not him -- his own. 18 And there seems to be an inconsistency 19 there and I don't know whether you can address that or 20 help us in any way? 21 A: I don't believe I can help you in any 22 way in that regard, sir. I didn't make any of those 23 particular comments. I'd be glad to try to clarify it if 24 I had some direct knowledge. 25 Q: However, what this does show when we
1421 are considering what the effect of Detective Sergeant 2 Mark Wright's thoughts and wishes and beliefs are, is 3 that he had some considerable -- considerable influence 4 and authority or apparent authority so that thirty (30) 5 people will take a direction from him to stop going home 6 after a twelve (12) hour shift; isn't that fair? 7 A: He's an acting Detective Staff 8 Sergeant. If he tells a sergeant to hold officers from 9 going off duty, the sergeant will obey that command -- 10 Q: I see. 11 A: -û absolutely. That's an expectation 12 that should take place. If that was his direction, they 13 should follow through with it. 14 Q: So as an acting Detective Staff 15 Sergeant, he has clear and unquestioned authority over 16 any sergeant? 17 A: If it comes down -- for the most 18 part, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And that would, in this case, 20 have included Stan Korosec who was -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- co-ordinating the ERT teams? 23 A: Well, as you pointed out, in the 24 original organizational chart, I mean, clearly the ERT 25 teams report through him to myself in the basic chart.
1431 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: So clearly the lines of communication 3 or the lines of command follow the direction that we're 4 discussing. 5 Q: Yes, all right. Now, the other thing 6 I'd like to go back to, the transcript we looked at of 7 the Mark Wright call to the command post while Mark 8 Wright was still on the road after the incident he'd seen 9 at the sandy parking lot and after the damage to the 10 vehicle incident, which he'd heard about as he passed 11 through the checkpoints. 12 Is -- am I accurate, so far, from what you 13 know, in my description? 14 A: Well, I'd like to know which one 15 you're referring to, so I could refer to it, that would 16 be helpful. 17 Q: Okay. I -- sorry, I got lost with 18 the question there. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was going 20 to ask which tab it is, which tab are you referring to? 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Yeah, Exhibit P- 22 466, Tab 19 on page 2. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 25 Q: And you pointed out that in that
1441 radio communication from Detective Sergeant Wright, that 2 he said: 3 "On my way back I'll give you a full 4 rep." 5 Which means a full report I guess; right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Now again, in the context of what 8 happened from a situation where Detective Sergeant Mark 9 Wright said: 10 "We should be moving some people down 11 that way." 12 I'd like to follow what happened with 13 respect to that full report. And if you could turn to, 14 again, the Tab 34 which is the interview of Detective 15 Sergeant Wright and Exhibit P-462 and turn to, again, 16 page 14 and I'd like to continue where we left off. 17 A: Page 14? 18 Q: Page 14, yes. Continue where we left 19 off and we left off where Detective Staff Sergeant Mark 20 Wright had instructed Sergeant Korosec to hold back the 21 shift, right? 22 And at the bottom of the page the 23 paragraph begins: 24 "I then went into the command trailer 25 and advised Inspector Linton, Inspector
1451 Dale Linton who is now the onsite 2 incident commander, of what had taken 3 place down there. 4 There was some conversation between 5 myself and Inspector Linton with 6 respect to exactly what had taken place 7 there and who was airing the statement 8 and what the statement said as far as 9 the civilian that was involved in the 10 willful damage complaint. 11 And there was confirmation from 12 Constable Poole at the scene as to yes, 13 there was actual damage to his vehicle 14 and yes, we had a statement and yes, 15 this victim was able to positively 16 identify the individual who had done 17 the damage to his vehicle. 18 And our further information was that 19 the victim was a councillor for Kettle 20 Point Reserve whose name escapes me at 21 this particular moment." 22 Close quote. Now, would you agree with me 23 that that could reasonably be interpreted as the report 24 which we've just seen Detective Sergeant Wright talk 25 about in his radio communication?
1461 A: Is that the report? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: But that does appear to be a report 5 that Detective Sergeant Wright is saying he made when he 6 got to the command post; is that fair? 7 A: This is a context of a statement 8 taken by Inspector Goodall some time later. I -- I'm not 9 sure exactly what Wright's, you know, how -- if he's 10 referring to the information that he generally knew then 11 or later, or was this the information he relayed to 12 Linton in specific. I -- I'm not sure it's that clear. 13 Q: All right. I'll -- we don't need to 14 pursue that. I would like to, however, follow up with -- 15 again on the same question of the report that Detective 16 Sergeant Wright said in the radio communication he would 17 make. Okay? 18 And he was referring to making a report at 19 the command post where Inspector Linton was the incident 20 commander; is that right? 21 A: Right. And he indicated to -- to 22 Sergeant Korosec that he was going in to brief the 23 incident commander as -- as I understand it. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: Right.
1471 Q: All right. If you could turn to Tab 2 32 of the document binder and that is a transcript, 3 apparently, of a telephone conversation between 4 Superintendent Parkin and Inspector Linton, commencing at 5 about 21:41 hours, which would be 9:41 p.m. Is that what 6 it appears to be? 7 A: Yes. Sure. 8 Q: All right. And in that -- and that's 9 Inquiry Document 1000016 and I'll ask that that be made 10 an exhibit for convenience. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-469, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. 469: Document 100016 excerpts from 14 transcript of phone call between 15 Linton and Parkin 21:41 hours. 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Has this 18 document already been referred to up until now or is it 19 the first time we're looking at it? Mr. Millar, do you 20 know that? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think it -- it may 22 be the first time, although this transcript, as well, 23 appears, I believe, in -- I believe this is the first -- 24 this is the first time we've referred to it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
1481 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm just trying to 2 determine if it also appeared in Exhibit 444, but I don't 3 think it does. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: Excuse me. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 7 Sandler...? 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: Commissioner, again, I 9 -- I'd like some clarification of just where we're going, 10 generally, because what -- what we've seen for the last 11 little while is Deputy Commissioner Carson is being 12 cross-examined on Examinations for Discovery that he 13 didn't conduct, that he wasn't a party to -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- testimony at an 16 injunction hearing that he wasn't present for, and now a 17 communication between Tony Parkin who will be a witness 18 at these proceedings with -- with the incident commander 19 for the night shift, Officer Linton. 20 And -- and with great respect, if -- if My 21 Friend wants to submit at the end of the piece what 22 inferences should be drawn from people who have 23 knowledge of these matters and give testimony about them, 24 or if My Friend wants to cross-examine Deputy 25 Commissioner Carson about what he was told, specifically,
1491 or what he understood from what he was told by others, 2 then I can't object to that, but -- but at some point 3 this is really argument -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- in the guise of 6 cross-examination, I say with great respect to My 7 Friends. And I'm just not sure, it -- it seems to be 8 limitless because for each of these transcripts, and My 9 Friend's putting excerpts, and I -- and I'm not 10 suggesting anything improper about it. 11 But when I cross-examine should I be 12 putting excerpts from the same people who testify in 13 Examinations for Discovery and what else they say on the 14 particular topic, which Deputy Commissioner Carson knows 15 no more about than the excerpts that My Friend is 16 putting. 17 And I'm not sure you'd be very thrilled 18 with the process where My Friend's cross-examination 19 leads to my cross-examination in that way. And again, I 20 don't what to inhibit My Friend in any way, he can ask 21 anything, in my submission, of Deputy Commissioner Carson 22 as to what he was told or what he understood as a result 23 of what he was told or what he did. 24 But I just don't find it helpful, with 25 great respect, to My Friend.
1501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 2 like to say something, Mr. Millar, or not at this point? 3 No. 4 We're giving Mr. Klippenstein a 5 considerable amount of latitude, but at some point we do 6 have to have some idea of how it holds together, but at 7 this point I'd let you continue. I mean, I'm not 8 stopping you. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I'm just 10 totally in your hands as to guidance whether you want me 11 to explain a little bit about where I'm going -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would be 13 helpful if you explained a little bit -- 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because I 16 think -- 17 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -û it isn't 19 clear exactly where you're going. 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Okay. Well, I 21 -- I mentioned earlier, when I began today, that I would 22 be focussing on a time period of about 7:00-ish or 23 thereabouts for about a little more than an hour, because 24 during that time period steps were taken that set in 25 motion --
1511 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: -- a very 3 large mobilization. And those happened to be when this 4 Witness, Commissioner -- Deputy Commissioner Carson was 5 off duty. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: They were 8 serious enough events so that he was called back after a 9 long day shift. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So these are 12 very serious matters, in my submission, which is -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No one's 14 quarrelling with that. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So, but one 16 (1) of the important event -- factors that appear to be 17 noticeable during that period is that Deputy -- Sergeant 18 Mark Wright saw an incident down at the sandy parking 19 lot, then heard of another one, then reported back to 20 command post, gave some instructions that suddenly 21 ballooned things into happening and this is now why I'm 22 raising this. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Deputy 25 Commissioner Carson, in a tape I provided earlier this
1521 morning, described these things that have happened as 2 being the reason for going down there, and that they 3 involved trashing a car. 4 And so the point is that what Detective 5 Sergeant Mark Wright saw and described, appears to have 6 exploded and distorted, and yet been a key factor in 7 these things. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: So what I 10 intend to show here is how what Detective Sergeant Wright 11 saw and described became something else. And it's true 12 that -- that Deputy Commissioner Carson was not party to 13 this, but he certainly expressed very similar views, he 14 certainly was responsible for Mark Wright as an 15 assistant. 16 So he certainly, in my view, can add 17 something to it, and if it's merely because he wants to 18 try and dispute what I've just said, I submit that would 19 be useful to the Inquiry. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Millar? Do you want to say something now? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I'm not -- the 23 witness can be asked what he did, what he didn't do, what 24 he was told and Parkin -- Superintendent Parkin will be a 25 witness. He can be asked about this call. I think that
1531 it's fair to ask because Mr. -- Inspector Linton has 2 passed away, to ask this witness what he was told by 3 Inspector Linton. 4 But it's -- I'm having a little difficulty 5 with this conversation as to what he was -- how you tie 6 this conversation of which he was not a party to, to 7 either of those things, that's all. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 9 Sandler, do you have something you wish to say? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I 14 didn't think you were going to impose any restrictions on 15 Mr. Klippenstein -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- a few minutes 18 ago, so I -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I certainly 20 didn't intend to. 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: No, I know that, and 22 that's why I hesitated to rise at all, but I must say, 23 based on what has been said, that I'm very concerned 24 about constraints being put on Mr. Klippenstein at this 25 stage, in terms of the line of questioning.
1541 And just to make it clear why I say that, 2 Mr. Klippenstein has probably the most comprehensive 3 understanding of this record of, I would venture to say, 4 any Counsel here, because of his long involvement in this 5 matter. 6 It is very important from the First 7 Nations' perspective that -- that he play the role that 8 he's playing in terms of bringing this information out. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And on the other 11 hand, we have Inspector Carson, who had overall 12 responsibility for this event, and it turns out both when 13 he was on duty and off duty. 14 So it is highly relevant how his evidence 15 lines up with other evidence that's available in terms of 16 what his understanding was. 17 Now, as it happens, Commission Counsel has 18 chosen to call him first, and there's some advantages to 19 that, but there's also disadvantages to that. 20 One (1) of the disadvantages, we haven't 21 heard all this other evidence yet. It canÆt be a 22 restriction on what we can ask Mr. Carson, that it 23 happens that he was called as the first witness. 24 And in order for the other evidence to put 25 to him, other information to put to him, well, he can say
1551 he didn't know anything about it, and he can say what his 2 understanding of it is, he can comment on it any way he 3 likes. 4 But I am -- I -- I urge you, Commissioner, 5 not to put any kind of prior constraints on Mr. 6 Klippenstein in terms of how he sets up these questions 7 and what information he does put to Mr. Carson for 8 comment. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's my 10 instinct as well -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and 13 that's what we're trying to do. So I think I would like 14 to try to continue with Mr. Klippenstein's examination, 15 unless it goes too far. 16 Yes, Mr. Millar...? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, my only comment 18 is, I have no trouble with that -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: û- if he's going to 21 put something to the Witness from here that, did Linton 22 tell you this or that. Perhaps I misunderstood what he 23 was trying to do. I have no trouble with that -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 25 why we're cutting him a bit of leeway, to see how it
1561 goes, but -- 2 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: And I think we got 3 the -- the objection, perhaps, at a rather early stage 4 where all that had happened at this point was that there 5 was a reference to the transcript of a conversation 6 admittedly between other people. 7 But on the other hand, it's not 8 necessarily the case that Mr. Carson only knew what we 9 can prove him to have known from a transcript of which 10 he's a party. 11 He is the commander of this incident and I 12 presume that he knew other things besides what we can 13 strictly prove beyond reasonable doubt that he -- he 14 actually knew about. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's why 16 we're giving him considerable leeway -- 17 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Right, and -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: û- and I'd 19 like to continue to do that -- 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Thank you, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -û to the 22 extent that we can, so would you carry on please, Mr. -- 23 did you have something you need to add, or are we okay? 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: With your last 25 comment, we're okay, Mr. Commissioner.
1571 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I have nothing to 3 add. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Mr. Falconer. 6 Do you want to carry on, Mr. Klippenstein? 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Thank you, 8 Commissioner. I will try to accommodate the concerns 9 expressed. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 12 Q: I would like to take your knowledge, 13 Deputy Commissioner Carson, and your understanding and 14 see what you think in terms of accuracy, about the report 15 that Inspector Linton makes to Superintendent Parkin. 16 And I'd like to read that to you. That's 17 on Exhibit 469, the first page and it begins two-thirds 18 down with the comment, ôAbout two (2) hours ago;ö do you 19 see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Quote: 22 "About two (2) hours ago, a car went 23 down. It was on Army Camp Road. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: There was a group of people,
1581 Bonsanquet Township people met the 2 citizens and they expressed their 3 displeasure. Now this is the people 4 that Fred Thomas was leading, he's the 5 Mayor of Bosanquet. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And they were irate that nobody 8 was doing anything. A meeting earlier 9 and then I guess one (1) of the people 10 from that meeting, we believe from that 11 meeting, drove down Parkway and onto 12 right at the corner there at Army Camp 13 Road, just in front of the gate to the 14 Park. And there were eight (8) Native 15 males out there with baseball bats. 16 Four (4) of them had bats and stuff and 17 they started banging on her car. And 18 so --" 19 And I'll stop there. Now, would you agree 20 with me that there was no evidence, and would you agree 21 with me that you were not aware that there was any 22 evidence that one (1) of the non-Native people, I take 23 it, from the meeting of cottagers and other residents, 24 drove past the Ipperwash Park corner and had her car 25 banged on with baseball bats?
1591 A: Correct. 2 Q: And so Inspector Linton got it wrong 3 on that aspect; is that right? 4 A: I -- yeah, I just disagreed with that 5 point, yes. 6 Q: And -- and then, again, there's a 7 repetition from Inspector Linton to Superintendent Parkin 8 on page 6. 9 A: I guess if we're going to point out 10 the accuracy, I guess we should point out that four (4) 11 out of eight (8) them had baseball bats, according to 12 Linton. 13 Q: Yes. And I think that raises 14 interesting questions about where he got his information 15 from? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: But actually, not on the bottom of 18 page 6 but on the top of page 7 Inspector Linton says, 19 quote: 20 "We believe she was one (1) of the 21 people at the meeting and then she gets 22 her vehicle damaged with baseball bats 23 as she drives by the entrance. 24 Q: She was driving by? 25 A: Yeah, yeah. And there's eight (8)
1601 or ten (10) people on the road and they 2 wacked the vehicle." 3 A: Which page are we on, sir? 4 Q: Pardon? 5 A: Which page are we on? 6 Q: Oh, this is page 7 of Exhibit 469. 7 A: Oh yes, I'm sorry. 8 Q: Did you have a chance to read it? 9 Should I re-read that because perhaps I misdirect -- 10 A: No, that's fair, I û- I -- 11 Q: All right. Would you agree with me 12 that this appears to be not too long after Detective Mark 13 Wright said he would provide a full report to Inspector 14 Linton at the command post? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So there's a possibility that 17 Detective Wright did provide a report and that this is 18 partly a result of that report; is that fair? 19 A: I'm -- I'm not sure it's totally 20 fair. From the perspective that there was a statement 21 taken by an officer, I believe Constable Sam Poole, if my 22 memory's correct, so I don't know if the information that 23 Linton's referring to is from Poole's statement or if 24 part of it is from Wright's report when he arrived back 25 or a combination thereof.
1611 Q: Well, I'll be asking you questions 2 about Sam Poole's statements in a little while. But 3 would you agree with me that the report that Inspector 4 Linton is making to Superintendent Parkin is similar to 5 the description that you made to Ms. Murray and we 6 listened to earlier, in the sense that there was a 7 beating of a car with baseball bats? Is that -- 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: Correct, yeah. 11 Q: And so, both yourself and Inspector 12 Linton appear to have been mistaken on that score because 13 there was no such action; is that right? 14 A: Well, there was damage to a vehicle, 15 the means I was -- in my perception was: a) it was a 16 female victim and b) it was struck with bats. And I was 17 of the view or of that view and learned some time later 18 that, in fact, it was a rock that caused it and, in fact, 19 it was not a female victim, it was a female owner of the 20 vehicle. 21 Q: And would you agree with me that if 22 we are now talking about the reports, for example, from 23 Linton and similar to what you said to Ms. Murray, that 24 there is a difference in terms of public perception and - 25 - and public reception of an incident in which a Native
1621 person damages the car of another Native person from his 2 community and one in which a Native person damages a non- 3 Native woman's car. 4 Would you agree that there is likely to be 5 a different public perception between those two (2) 6 incidents? 7 A: Quite likely, yes. 8 Q: And, in fact, the incident which is 9 described as a Native damaging a non-Native woman's car 10 is likely to be perceived, for whatever reason, as 11 significantly more serious? Would you agree with that? 12 A: I'd agree. 13 Q: And, in fact, such an incident is 14 likely to be, in some corners, somewhat inflammatory. 15 Would you agree with that? 16 A: Some people might take it that way, 17 yes. 18 Q: And would you agree if that involves 19 baseball bats beating on the non-Native woman's car, it 20 would tend to be pretty inflammatory? 21 A: Well, what would -- would happen, 22 sir, is that it would be investigated. That -- that's 23 the rationale why you would have a statement, to 24 determine what the facts are and then, the action 25 necessary to deal with that would flow from that.
1631 So, I mean, if there was damage to a 2 vehicle and the person responsible is known, then the 3 appropriate criminal code processes would commence 4 regardless of the victim. 5 Q: But in a -- would you agree with me - 6 - and this was my question, in a situation such as this 7 in the occupation of a Provincial Park in which some -- 8 both -- various groups are claiming matters of principle, 9 to have a non-Native woman's car beaten on by baseball 10 bats by Natives would be pretty inflammatory, there's no 11 getting around that, don't you agree? 12 A: That's fair. 13 Q: And when it's more than one (1) 14 Native, when it's a group of male Natives beating on a 15 non-Native woman's car with baseball bats is actually 16 probably very inflammatory, isn't that fair, speaking as 17 a police officer who deals with the public? 18 A: Depending on how the information is - 19 - is given, potentially, yes. 20 Q: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that in 21 such a situation the action necessary would flow from an 22 investigation and I would like to now look at that. In 23 fact, in this particular case, we did have an 24 investigation by Sam Poole, right, Constable Sam Poole? 25 A: He took the statement, yes.
1641 Q: Yes. And I'd like to look at that 2 statement and that's at Tab 15. 3 Sorry, that -- Tab 15 describes by Sam 4 Poole how he got the statement, but the actual statement 5 is, I believe, at Tab 12. 6 Now, this is, I believe, Exhibit P-123 and 7 is Document 2000549. And this appears to be an Ontario 8 Provincial Police interview report of Gerald G. George 9 signed at the bottom of three (3) pages, and the 10 interviewing officer appears to be S. Poole. 11 And I understand his actual name was 12 Sheldon Poole but he was known as Sam Poole is it? 13 A: That's correct, yes. 14 Q: Now I understand you've seen this 15 report as part of this Inquiry before, is that right? I 16 believe Mr. Millar went -- touched on it with you? 17 A: Yes, yes. 18 Q: Now had you seen this interview 19 report before these recent inquiries? Now perhaps I 20 stand to be corrected. I -- if you look at this 21 particular report, do you recall whether or not Mr. 22 Millar actually looked at this report with you? 23 A: Oh, I -- I don't know if we referred 24 to this or not. I'm aware of this report. 25 Q: Oh, okay. All right. Sorry, I
1651 wasn't clear in my question. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Then I was asking you whether you 4 were aware or reviewed this particular interview report, 5 and the interview is dated September 6th, 1995, whether 6 you were aware of this before your preparation this 7 Inquiry appearance? 8 A: I had never seen it before 9 Q: I see. Now would you agree with me 10 that -- and I can be more specific if you wish or 11 require. That this appears to be the report by Sam Poole 12 that we see referred to in various discussions, radio 13 calls and so forth of Deputy Mark Wright and others on 14 September 6, 1995 at about that time? 15 A: That's fair, yes. 16 Q: I -- I could certainly go into more 17 detail but I don't want to if I need to. 18 A: It -- it appears to be the statement 19 he had taken -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- of the evening in regards to the 22 damage to the vehicle. 23 Q: And the statement says on the right 24 hand side of page 1 in about the 7th box down that the 25 interview was concluded at approximately time 20:27 which
1661 would be 8:27, you see that? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Am I reading it correctly? 4 A: No, that's -- that's right. 5 Q: And the statement appears to be 6 signed by Gerald George at the bottom of each page. 7 That's -- that's the appearance; is that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And also near the top we have a box 10 called "Time Interview Commenced" and that appears to say 11 19:56 which is 7:56; is that right? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Now -- just give me one (1) moment 14 here. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Do you recall -- before I ask you 19 that, I'd like to just give you a reference of... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Do you recall seeing this statement of 24 Gerald George from Sam Poole when you went back to the 25 command post at about -- and I understand you went back
1671 at approximately 8:30 p.m.; is that right? 2 A: Roughly. I'd have to check the notes 3 to be exact with that, so approximately that time. 4 Q: And after you got back that evening, 5 did you see this report from Sam Poole? 6 A: No as -- as I indicated I didn't see 7 this report for years after the fact. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: A moment's indulgence, 12 Commissioner... 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. Is 14 there a typed copy of this anywhere, Mr. Millar, this 15 statement? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe that it's -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 18 hard to read. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe there's a 20 typed copy at 1000310, Inquiry Document Number, which at 21 the break we can print out. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1681 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: If I could ask you to turn to Tab 17 3 of the document brief, that's Exhibit -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-465. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: Thank you. That's exhibit P-465 and 8 we looked at this before at -- where at 19:55 hours or 9 thereabouts, Mark Wright appears to be reporting via 10 police radio about natives with baseball bats; correct? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And then you drop down a couple of 13 entries and at the entries under 22:02 hours, which is 14 8:02, approximately; correct -- 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: -- there's a paragraph beginning 17 with, "Trevor Richardson" and we -- the third sentence 18 says, quote: 19 "Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson 20 on telephone." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And just pausing there for a moment, 23 would you agree with me it appears reasonable to -- to 24 believe that that refers to the conversation between you 25 and Mark Wright which we heard on the tape?
1691 A: I would presume, yes. 2 Q: And then, the next sentence says, 3 quote: 4 "Dale Linton, let's wait and see what 5 Provincial Constable Poole's statement 6 reveals." Close quote. 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: So, it appears that incident 9 commander -- night shift incident commander Linton is 10 saying, let's wait -- and has heard about this and say 11 and, Let's wait and see what the statement says, right? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Okay. Now, can I compare that to the 14 phrase that Detective Mark Wright was using in the 15 conversation with you almost at the exact moment. And 16 I'd like to go back to the transcript of that tape, which 17 we looked at earlier. 18 I think I need Mr. Millar to help me out, 19 I can't find where I'm at. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it's -- for the 24 benefit of the Witness, it's either Tab 48 or Tab 49 of 25 Exhibit P-444.
1701 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Oh, yes. It's 2 -- thank you. It's Tab 23 in our document brief. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: And if you turn to page 317 of that 8 statement, at the top it says: 9 "Wright, you got them for weapon 10 dangerous?" 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And drop down to the bottom, near the 14 bottom, and Detective Sergeant Wright says, quote: 15 "And I got the whole day shift here 16 with canine." 17 And you say: 18 "Okay. So -- so what's Dale want to 19 do, then?" 20 Does that sound right to you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- and the "Dale" you referred to 23 would be Inspector Linton? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: So, you're asking, what does
1711 Inspector Linton want to do? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And then, Wright says: 4 "Oh, I don't know, Waffle, I'll be here 5 til f--ing daylight figuring it out and 6 daylight's a waste then." 7 And I think that has been recognized as an 8 error and it's "daylight's a wasting," right? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: So, Wright says: 11 "Oh, I don't know, Waffle, I'll be here 12 until f--ing -- we'll be here til f-- 13 ing daylight figuring it out, and 14 daylight's a wasting." 15 So, would you agree with me that it 16 appears from the command post scribe notes that we just 17 looked at that almost at the exact time when on the phone 18 Mr. Wright is saying to you, Dale seems to be wasting 19 time, Dale is saying, Let's wait until we see Sam Poole's 20 report; is that right? 21 A: That's fair. 22 Q: And do you know if Dale Linton, and 23 Inspector Linton is no longer with us, but do you know 24 whether -- do you have any evidence about whether he 25 actually did review Sam Poole's report?
1721 A: To tell you the truth, given the 2 geography of the situation, I really doubt it. I suspect 3 what happened, he -- he was probably apprised of the 4 essence of the information, at best. 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And I would like to go through the 10 statement of Sam Poole, and Commissioner, with apologies 11 for the level of detail, but in fact, it appears we have 12 a careful written statement of an incident at a critical 13 time which one (1) inspector wanted to review and 14 Detective Sergeant Wright said it appears to be a waste 15 of time. 16 And if you -- again, this is back at Tab 17 12, the question is: 18 "What, if anything, can you tell me 19 about what just happened?" 20 Do you see that at Tab 15 in the... 21 A: Where are we now, sir? 22 Q: In -- in the document book that I 23 provided to you. 24 A: Which tab are you at? 25 Q: At Tab 15.
1731 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 12. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I'm sorry, Tab 3 12. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 12. 5 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN I need a break. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Commissioner, 10 I'm just wondering whether it's -- it seems to be very 11 close to a potential break time, this would be a good 12 time to actually have the document projected on the 13 screen with a little bit of organization at this end. 14 So, whether it's a good time to break... 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what we can do 17 is Mr. Zbogar has control over the -- over the projector 18 now because we've had -- no? 19 Hmm hmm, I thought we did. But we can 20 print out a copy of the typed version at the break so 21 that it -- which is easier to read for the witness, than 22 even reading it on the -- on the screen. 23 If you want -- we were going to take the 24 break at 3:30. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We were
1741 going to take it at 3:30. It's on the screen now, it's 2 typed. I -- it's on there. I think we should just keep 3 going, unless Mr. Klippenstein really would like to have 4 a break now, then we'll do it. 5 If you really want -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I was just 7 thinking of the witness. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 9 right, for both. Would you prefer to have a typed copy 10 in front of you? 11 THE WITNESS: Quite frankly, I am able to 12 read Sam Poole's -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: -- writing. I don't have 15 difficulty with it, quite frankly. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 17 go on a bit, then. We'll try and keep to schedule and 18 break at 3:30. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: All right, 20 thank you. Sorry, Commissioner, for the -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 22 fine. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN For the delay. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN
1751 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner, I'd like to 2 go through this report. The first question, is: 3 "What, if anything can you tell me 4 about what just happened? 5 A: At about 7:51 p.m. on September 6 6th, 1995, I went on to Army Camp Road 7 from Ipperwash, are coming off the 8 curve at the Ipperwash Provincial Park 9 when Stewart George, nickname Worme, 10 motioned for me to stop and I pulled 11 onto the dirt. 12 Stewart approached the car and he was 13 angry over an article that I put in the 14 Forest Standard..." 15 Would you agree with me that that should 16 be "Forest" Standard? 17 A: Correct. I believe that's accurate. 18 Q: Which is a newspaper, of course? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: "Stewart said that he was going to 21 kick my ass. He was angry and drunk, 22 so I proceeded to pull away and Stewart 23 threw a rock at my sister's car and the 24 rock impacted in the back, left quarter 25 panel directly behind the driver's
1761 door. And I just drove away. 2 Q: How do you know Stewart George? 3 A: I worked with him for about the 4 lat three (3) months building the new 5 school at the Kettle Point. 6 Q: Do you know how old he is? 7 A: Thirty-give (35) to forty (40), I 8 guess. 9 Q: How do you know that he, Stewart 10 George, was drunk? 11 A: I smelled him, it was strong with 12 beer smell and his speech was slurred. 13 Q: Did Stewart have anything in his 14 hands while he was talking to you? 15 A: He just had his fists resting on 16 my door. 17 Q: Who else was standing with 18 Stewart? 19 A: He came away from the other group. 20 He was about thirty-five (35) feet away 21 from the group. 22 Q: Did you recognize who was in the 23 other group? 24 A: No. I wasn't really looking at 25 them. One (1) of the young guys had a
1771 bat though. 2 Q: How far away was Stuart when he 3 threw the rock at the car? 4 A: About twelve (12) feet. 5 Q: Did you see Stewart pick the rock 6 up? 7 A: No. But as I was pulling away I 8 saw him windup and throw the rock, 9 which hit the car. 10 Q: Who owns the vehicle? 11 A: My sister [and I'll omit the name] 12 owns the blue Pontiac Grand Am with 13 Ontario license [and I'll omit the 14 license]. 15 Q: Do you wish to say anything else? 16 A: No." 17 Now would you agree with me that there are 18 no -- that there is one (1) reference to baseball bat or 19 bats in this report; is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And there's a reference to only one 22 (1) bat; correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And that bat was being held by a 25 young guy who was in a group about thirty-five (35) feet
1781 away from the car; is that fair? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And would you agree that that bat, 4 according to this report, never made contact with the 5 car; is that right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And, in fact, there's no suggestion 8 in this report that that bat was used as a threat; is 9 that correct? 10 A: That's fair, yes. 11 Q: And would you agree that from the way 12 this author describes this bat, he barely noticed it 13 because it was thirty-five (35) feet away and he 14 certainly didn't feel threatened by that bat; is that 15 fair? 16 Let me -- let me put it this way; is that 17 a fair inference from what we see described here and the 18 way it is described? 19 A: As -- as described. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: Now, however, there is obviously a 23 reference to damage to a vehicle in this; correct? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Now would you agree with me that the
1791 damage that we see described in this report -- let me 2 withdraw that and start again. 3 Are you aware of any other report of 4 damage to a civilian car on the evening of September 6th? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So to the extent there is any report 7 or discussion of damage to a civilian car on September 8 6th, it probably or essentially has to be, based on this 9 incident to the extent it's based on anything at all; is 10 that fair? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And would you agree with me that this 13 appears to be the report that Inspector Linton was 14 waiting for? 15 A: That would appear to be correct. 16 Q: And would you agree with me that if 17 Inspector Linton had read this report, shortly after 18 eight o'clock, he probably would have had a different 19 assessment of the situation down by the Park? 20 A: Well, you're asking me to speculate 21 what he thinks or -- 22 Q: Yes. I apologize it's a difficult 23 situation because of course Inspector Linton has passed 24 away. 25 MR. MARK SANDLER: It's actually
1801 difficult whether he's passed away or not with great 2 respect. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 4 could put the question a little differently. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 7 Q: Yes, yes. Would you agree with me 8 that it would have been desirable to have read this 9 report shortly after eight o'clock on the evening of 10 September 6th, given your statement earlier that as a 11 result of -- or in a situation of damage to a car like 12 this, the action necessarily would flow from the 13 investigation? 14 A: If that was the only factor taken 15 into consideration, yes. 16 Q: Now, given your statement to Ms. 17 Murray which we heard on the -- on the tape, where you 18 said -- we can look at it if you wish, that there was a 19 car hit by bats and thatÆs why you went down. 20 And you said you believed that to be true 21 at the time. Would you agree that this statement would 22 have changed your perception of the key incident that you 23 -- as you assessed it at that time? 24 A: But -- but in all fairness, you -- 25 you can't take that in isolation as to the mobilization
1811 of the crowd management team, et cetera, and the 2 deployment of the crowd management team in its -- in 3 isolation. 4 Q: What -- 5 A: It -- I'm sorry. 6 Q: I -- I'm just asking you, based on 7 your words, what you said at the time to Ms. Murray, 8 which you now say you believed at the time to be true; 9 and that was that you went down to the Park because a car 10 had been damaged by baseball bats? 11 A: Yes. And -- and let -- let's keep in 12 mind, too, the discussion I had with Ms. Murray was 13 shortly after this incident. I was extremely busy and I 14 didn't get into the full version of what took place. 15 I was trying to give her a -- a quick 16 synopsis of -- of -- the Reader's Digest version, for 17 lack of a better description of -- this -- this was the 18 issue that brought the activity in the parking lot to our 19 attention. 20 Q: Well, with respect, Deputy 21 Commissioner Carson, we went through this before, that's 22 not what you said. You said, That's why we went down. 23 Now -- and then, you said you meant it. 24 So, I don't know whether you want to amend 25 the previous answer, which we discussed in some detail,
1821 but I'm putting it to you, Deputy Commissioner Carson, 2 that what you said to Ms. Murray was what you believed. 3 And what you said was that the trashing of the car was 4 the reason you went down. 5 And that wasn't -- surely wasn't the only 6 reason, but it was the reason you chose to identify as 7 the main reason; isn't that true? 8 A: Yes, sir, that's what I said to her. 9 Q: Yeah. And given that the trashing of 10 the car was what you identified as the main reason you 11 went down, wouldn't you have -- wouldn't you agree that 12 if you'd read this report and you'd become aware that the 13 trashing of the car was nothing like what you described 14 it or felt it to be at the time, you probably or possibly 15 would have changed your process of thinking in deciding 16 to go down to the Park; isn't that right? 17 A: No, I wouldn't agree. 18 Q: You would not agree? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: And so, you would have read this 21 report and at the time, even though you believed the 22 trashing of the car was the reason you were going down, 23 to use your words, and even though the trashing of the 24 car as you described it is nothing like what apparently 25 actually happened, you would not have changed what you
1831 did? 2 A: The crowd management team was 3 deployed after -- the -- the first incident is the car. 4 The other incident or the other information is Mark 5 Wright's encounter when he went past that -- that area. 6 And there's a number of other issues 7 including officers who -- ERT officers and TRU officers 8 who were down at that area providing observation. Quite 9 frankly, and I -- and I believe there's documentation 10 already before the Inquiry that indicates had that 11 parking lot been vacant when the TRU officers went in and 12 -- and took up their post of observation, there would 13 have been no requirement to deploy a crowd management 14 team. 15 Q: So, you're saying that the reports of 16 other officers at that time, namely before -- before 17 what? That -- around the time that you left? 18 A: During -- during this particular 19 period of time -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- ERT officers were observing the 22 area. There was information coming back about the 23 activity in and around the parking lot. 24 Q: And this would include checkpoint 25 Alpha, which was for -- until early in the evening, right
1841 at the corner; is that right? 2 A: No. It was -- it was back a bit, but 3 there was officers who were doing observation up around 4 the cottages as well. 5 Q: Well, I'll ask you questions about 6 that. I don't know, Commissioner, if now's a -- a 7 preferred time to -- to have a break? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 9 would be a good time, it's now 3:30. We'll take a break 10 now. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:48 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed, please be seated. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 23 Q: Deputy Commissioner Carson, I was 24 questioning you about the role, potentially, of Sam 25 Poole's statement from Gerald George and how that might
1851 have affected the decision of yourself and others, or 2 decisions of yourself and others, in the evening of 3 September 6th. And you were referring to other factors, 4 I think. 5 I'd like to take you to a statement of 6 Inspector Linton, which is Document Number 2003683. I 7 wonder if I could perhaps have that projected on the 8 screen? And... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: That is Tab 6 in the document binder 13 I've provided you at -- 14 A: I'm sorry? 15 Q: Tab 6. 16 A: Six (6)? 17 Q: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now, this statement by Inspector 22 Linton, I put to you today because you said there were 23 other factors at the time and I say -- I see that it says 24 at the top: 25 "The following are notes written at
1861 Saturday, the 9th of September, 1995 at 2 ten (10) hours -- ten o'clock in 3 command post at Forest Detachment." 4 Now, obviously, unfortunately, Inspector 5 Linton is no longer with us to be able to address these 6 issues, but I'd like to refer you to a paragraph on page 7 2 and the second paragraph beginning with: 8 "Since we had checkpoint with ERT 9 members." 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And I'd like to read that paragraph. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Perhaps we can, for context, begin 18 two (2) paragraphs up at the bottom of page 1. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Klippenstein, just give the Deputy Commissioner a minute 21 to read the statement. Have you read Inspector Linton's 22 statement? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 25 you just take a minute and read the statement, because I
1871 think you're going to be asked some questions about it. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 10 Q: All right. There's discussion in the 11 first paragraph about a report by Detective Sergeant 12 Wright about the car driving down Parkway and the car 13 being struck. 14 Now, would you agree with me that there's 15 some similarities that would appear between Inspector 16 Linton's report of that incident as you've described it 17 here and what we looked at earlier in the phone 18 transcript a few minutes ago? 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: And I don't mean to dwell on that but 21 if we can then go down to the next paragraph which reads 22 "Detective Sergeant Wright"; do you see that? 23 A: If I could just -- while we're on 24 that paragraph, point out he indicates here eight (8) to 25 ten (10) males, at least four (4) had baseball bats. So
1881 he -- he had the information about the number of the 2 personnel had baseball bats. 3 Q: Yes. Now -- thank you. And the 4 previous sentence I would note that he refers to eight 5 (8) to ten (10) male First Nations people on the roadway? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now would you agree with me that that 8 could be open to interpretation either being the roadway 9 of East Parkway or Army Camp or the parking lot? 10 A: There's no doubt in my mind all this 11 is open to interpretation. 12 Q: Right. And would you agree with me 13 that there's no evidence in any of the stuff that you've 14 seen or we've seen that the eight (8) to ten (10) males 15 that Detective Sergeant Wright were referring to were on 16 the actual Army Camp or East Parkway roadway; is that 17 fair? 18 A: That's fair. 19 Q: So to the extent that that reference 20 is suggestive that they were on the roadway, the paved 21 roadway, thereby actually blocking traffic on that 22 roadway, it would be misleading; is that fair? 23 A: That's fair but my -- my point was -- 24 Q: I think -- 25 A: -- out of the eight (8) people, four
1891 (4) had baseball bats. You -- you insinuated earlier he 2 misled me. But -- but in the information he's provided 3 or someone has provided to Inspector Linton, and as you 4 correctly pointed, he's not here to speak for himself, I 5 just want to make sure that we understanding that 6 Linton's note here indicates eight (8) to ten (10), four 7 (4) of which had baseball bats or similar objects. 8 Q: And would you -- would you agree that 9 it is somewhat significant that apparently these notes 10 were written on September 9th well after the incident 11 rather than during the period when the assessment of 12 those bats was being taken into account on the 6th? 13 A: Fair enough. 14 Q: Now if we could continue on the 15 bottom paragraph: 16 "Detective Sergeant Wright and most of 17 the other personnel present were 18 suggesting we should immediately deploy 19 the ERT unit to arrest the individuals 20 for having offensive weapons, mischief 21 for blocking the highway, unlawful 22 assembly, breach of the peace or 23 mischief for the vehicle damage." 24 Going on then -- 25 "As this discussion took place, we were
1901 being made aware of other information; 2 that is a school bus and dump truck 3 were being noted near the area just 4 inside the Park. 5 Natives were occupying the Park kiosk 6 which is close by and the window blinds 7 were shut. 8 The women and children on the Army Camp 9 are congregating at the main gate, 10 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road and told 11 our members at checkpoint Delta they 12 were leaving the area, as there was 13 going to be trouble." 14 Now continuing -- 15 "Since we had checkpoint with ERT 16 members on Parkway Drive, checkpoints 17 Bravo and Alpha, and Army Camp Road 18 checkpoint Charlie and Delta, there was 19 no perceived urgency to rush into a 20 potentially volatile situation. 21 There are several residences in the 22 immediate area. But as of that time no 23 threats against them or intimidations 24 had been made." 25 Now I would like to just direct your
1911 attention to that last sentence. 2 "There are several residences in the 3 immediate area. But as of that time no 4 threats against them or intimidations 5 had been made." 6 And if I take that sentence as applying 7 specifically to the evening of September 6th, do you have 8 any evidence to contradict that statement? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So to the best of your knowledge, 11 Inspector Linton's notes are accurate when he says that: 12 "As of the evening of September 6th 13 there were no threats or intimidations 14 against the residences in the immediate 15 area." 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Now I'd also like to then turn your 18 attention to anticipated evidence from Chris Coles, who 19 was the Deputy Commissioner at that point; is that fair? 20 I got it wrong? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Chief Superintendent, yeah. Sorry. 23 A: He -- he was the -- 24 Q: He was your boss at the time -- 25 A: Correct.
1921 Q: -- for this -- for this operation; is 2 that right? 3 A: He was the Region Commander for 4 Southwest Ontario. 5 Q: Yes. And, I'll ask you to refer to 6 Tab 5 of the Document Book and I will point out to you 7 something that my be relevant to what you mentioned 8 before about other factors when we discussed the -- the 9 Sam Poole Report and the stone throwing incident. 10 And, I'm showing you an excerpt from the 11 Examination for Discovery of Chris Coles on the 26th day 12 of July, 2001; the excerpt being the cover page plus 13 pages 63 to 65 and pages 73 to 77. 14 My Friend Mr. Millar has just reminded me 15 that it might be a good idea, for convenience, to mark 16 the statement of Inspector Linton as an exhibit; the one 17 we just referred to being Document 2003683. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-470. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-470. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-470: Document 2003683 statement of 22 Inspector D. Linton, 23 September 09/'95, 10:00 24 hours, pages 1060 to 1065 25
1931 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 2 Q: That's the statement at Tab 6 of the 3 document book that I provided to you. 4 Now, going back to Tab 5, and I'd like to 5 refer to page 64 and there's some discussion of -- with 6 Chief Coles about briefing notes or an issue sheet. And 7 at question 218 there's a question and -- about whether 8 an issue sheet would have been prepared and his answer 9 is, at line 21: 10 "Not really, because I guess my answer 11 to that is, I was there on September 12 the 6th and all was quiet up to four 13 o'clock in the afternoon, anyway." 14 Now, I gather you met with Chief Coles and 15 I think Superintendent Parkin on the afternoon of 16 September 6th? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And, that was in the command post? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: But, I understand you also took a 21 drive around with Chief Coles; is that fair? 22 Do you recall? 23 A: I don't believe I did that. 24 Q: Okay. You -- but -- then you and he 25 -- your evidence is that you and he were in the command
1941 post for some time? 2 A: A couple of hours. 3 Q: Yes. And, I believe you said you 4 weren't expecting to have that long a meeting, but it 5 turned -- 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Yeah. For -- so for several hours, 8 and during that time I guess there was the usual activity 9 in the command post, comings and goings and -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: There wasn't? 12 A: No, sir. During the period that 13 Chief Superintendent Coles and Superintendent Parkin were 14 in -- in the command post, other people were not allowed 15 in and out. 16 There would have been people on the 17 opposite -- on the other side of the closed door in the 18 communication section doing the communications work that 19 was necessary. And, when I say, "communications," I mean 20 the radio -- the radio work. 21 But as far as people coming in and out of 22 the command post dealing with me, no, they weren't. 23 Q: Would you have any evidence to -- to 24 -- to contradict or would you disagree with the statement 25 of Chief Coles in this discovery transcript that at least
1951 until four o'clock in the afternoon when he was there, 2 all was quiet? 3 A: That's -- I guess it's a fair 4 observation. 5 Q: All right. And then, if I go to page 6 75 of the same document, at Tab 5, and question 237 or 7 rather the answer to question 237 at page 19, Chief Coles 8 says: 9 "At this time the only situation that 10 we have is that some occupiers have 11 occupied the Provincial Park. There 12 are road blocks that have been set up 13 to contain the situation and I, as the 14 commander, have gone up to have a look 15 at what's going on, and the resources 16 that we're using, and I am with the 17 superintendent of operations, Tony 18 Parkin." 19 Chief Coles continues and this is in 20 response to the questioner, quote: 21 "You're making it sound at this time as 22 if it's a heightened situation." 23 And then skipping over to question 238, or 24 239, rather: 25 "Q: It didn't seem like there was
1961 anything particularly happening out 2 there at the Park; is that fair? 3 A: That's fair." 4 The next question, 240: 5 "Q: It didn't seem like an urgent 6 situation at that time? 7 Answer from Chief Coles: 8 "No, not at that time." 9 Now, do you have any significant evidence 10 or knowledge to suggest contrary to what Chief Coles said 11 that there was something particularly happening out there 12 at the Park at about the time he mentions? 13 A: I would agree with his general 14 observations. 15 Q: Yeah. And would you agree with his 16 observation that it didn't seem like an urgent situation 17 at that time? 18 A: I guess it depends how, you know, 19 everybody's definition is different and I guess urgent -- 20 what it was was -- status quo is probably a better 21 descriptor. 22 Q: So it was -- things were in a status 23 quo mode, is that -- 24 A: I think that's a better description 25 than whether it's urgent or not or I'm not sure that
1971 really reflects -- I mean, the occupiers are in the 2 Provincial Park, the officers are on the road blocks, 3 things are just a status quo. We were standing by, 4 waiting for the process with the injunction process to 5 take place tomorrow morning, just basically, sit tight 6 and let's wait the night out. 7 Q: I see, okay. And -- 8 A: That better reflects what your 9 overview is. 10 Q: All right. And there didn't seem to 11 be anything particular that happened during the day that 12 was particularly out of that status quo situation? 13 A: Well, there was -- there was -- 14 Q: There was a picnic table incident in 15 the morning; correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But since then in which -- or early 18 in the morning, it turned out that the protesters had 19 placed twenty (20) or thirty (30) picnic tables on the 20 sandy parking lot next to the Park; right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And that -- that was dealt with by 23 sending a significant number of officers down to remove 24 them, that was the morning of the 6th, and that went 25 without incident; is that right?
1981 A: Correct. 2 Q: And since that time, there hadn't 3 been any particular and major or significant 4 disturbance -- 5 A: There had been no altercations 6 between the police and the occupiers. 7 Q: Right. And the occupiers were 8 shining light in the -- in the eyes of officers at the -- 9 at the roadway check-ups, checkpoints, which was a little 10 irritating to them but that's the kind of stuff we're 11 talking about; is that right? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: All right. And then -- did I say 14 lights? I meant mirrors, I think, yeah. Thank you, 15 sorry about that. 16 And -- 17 A: It was lights at night. 18 Q: Yeah, lights at night -- if there 19 was -- 20 A: Mirrors in the day time. 21 Q: I've seen talk of large mirrors, some 22 allegation that they were large mirrors taken from the 23 bathrooms of the Park and kids sitting on picnic tables, 24 using them to reflect light to the officers at the 25 checkpoints --
1991 A: Correct. 2 Q: That kind of stuff. 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: Now -- and then, after Chief Coles 5 left, you were starting to look towards the end of your 6 shift at about seven o'clock; is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, am I correct in thinking that as 9 you were -- you -- you'd been on shift for a long time 10 with a lot to cover and presumably you were looking 11 forward to a little time off? 12 A: Well, a little rest, yes. 13 Q: Yeah. And as you were looking down 14 towards the end of your shift, to be honest, I haven't 15 seen in any of the anticipated evidence or your evidence, 16 any preparation on your part for major incidents that 17 evening; is that fair? 18 A: That's very accurate. 19 Q: Yeah. So you weren't anticipating, 20 as you were getting ready to leave, that there would be 21 anything substantial happening that night; is that fair? 22 A: I was certainly hoping there would 23 not be. 24 Q: Right. You were hoping and it was 25 also -- it appears your --
2001 A: We -- we -- 2 Q: -- expectation or assumption? 3 A: I was -- I was optimistic, status quo 4 for the night and injunction application tomorrow morning 5 and -- and see what flows from that. 6 Q: And when I review, for example, the 7 notes of the briefing session you held before you 8 departed that day, I believe there were some plans -- and 9 I'm just going from memory here, there was talk of 10 putting concrete blocks in the -- in the sandy parking 11 lot, that kind of thing; is that -- is that right, have I 12 got that right? 13 A: That's fair, yes. 14 Q: Yeah. Now that also was, it seemed 15 to me, not an urgent matter, it was just maintaining the 16 status quo? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. And so you left work, the 19 shift, at about 7:00 or 7:30, not -- expecting to have a 20 little bit of restful sleep; right? 21 A: Yes. I was expecting to leave and 22 then meet with Mark Wright, as I think I indicated at a 23 quarter to 9:00 that evening to discuss his appearance at 24 the hearing the next morning. 25 Q: All right. And we've heard evidence
2011 from some native witnesses such as Bonnie Bressette. And 2 I believe you know Bonnie Bressette? 3 A: I've met her before, yes. 4 Q: Yeah. She's been a chief of the 5 Kettle Point community -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- and a councillor for many years. 8 A: Yes, she has. 9 Q: And I believe I saw a comment made by 10 you somewhere. You actually thought fairly highly of 11 her; is that fair? 12 A: That's fair, yeah. Sure. 13 Q: And there's been evidence during her 14 cross-examination that she attended in the Park in the 15 late afternoon on September 6th with her grandchildren 16 and -- around 3:30 or 4:00 in the afternoon and that they 17 had a picnic, she and her grandchildren and some others, 18 until they had to leave at around six o'clock because of 19 -- they were concerned about bee stings for -- for the 20 kids. 21 And she agreed with the statement put to 22 her of Inspector Coles that it was fair to say that it 23 didn't seem that there was anything particularly 24 happening out there at the Park in the af -- early 25 afternoon of September 6th, 1995 and she said the only
2021 difference would be the roadblock and the police across 2 the road. 3 Other than -- other than that it was just 4 an ordinary day and you wouldn't disagree with that 5 either, from the point of view of what was happening in 6 the Park, other than the -- the, you know, the fact of 7 the occupation and the roadblocks? 8 A: That's fair. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now could you -- I'd like to turn, 14 now, to a discussion of the topic of injunctions, which 15 you've discussed a number of times and you have made 16 quite a few references to the fact that it was the 17 assumption or plan of yourself that a key part of 18 addressing an occupation such as this would be that the 19 landowner would be expected to obtain an injunction from 20 the Court; is that right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Now, had you ever actually 23 participated in a situation like that which required, 24 from your point of view, the obtaining of an injunction? 25 A: No, sir.
2031 Q: Okay. And before the specific events 2 of September 4th and 5th and 6th, and I'll get to the 3 injunction issue in that period later on, but you had 4 made references to injunctions, for example, in some 5 planning meetings and for several years had referred to 6 the necessity of an injunction to deal with such an 7 occupation, whether it was in the Park or in the military 8 base; is that right? 9 A: Yes. It all started with the 10 military base obviously. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And is it fair to say your position 14 always was whether it was dealing with the federal 15 jurisdiction people, whether that was the defence or 16 anyone else, that had to get an injunction; is that 17 right? 18 A: Absolutely. 19 Q: And your position with respect to the 20 Park was that MNR had to get an injunction? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Now was there ever any discussion and 23 I haven't seen any evidence of it, of actual assistance 24 by the OPP in obtaining an injunction, in concrete terms, 25 such as by providing evidence before we get to, let's
2041 say, September 4th? 2 A: I -- I'm sorry I don't understand. 3 Q: Sorry. As we've already seen in some 4 of the documents here that in this occasion on September 5 4th, 5th and 6th and 7th, there came a point when the OPP 6 or the members of the OPP were asked or agreed to provide 7 evidence in an injunction; is that right? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And that, in fact, happened as we've 10 seen with Detective Sergeant Mark Wright? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Now my question relates to the period 13 before then. Had there every been discussion, to your 14 knowledge, that the OPP would actively assist in an 15 injunction by giving testimony? 16 A: I'm not aware of anyone else applying 17 for an injunction. 18 Q: Okay. And although there had been 19 discussion about an injunction with the defence people; 20 correct? 21 A: Defence? 22 Q: Defence. 23 A: Oh, oh yes, yes. 24 Q: And do you recall if there ever was 25 any discussion that OPP officers should testify in
2051 support of the injunction? 2 A: That was never discussed. 3 Q: Okay. And I recall and we've looked 4 at, earlier today, the minutes of the fairly substantial 5 OPP meeting that happened on September 1st, that was the 6 planning meeting for Operation Maple. 7 And I did not see, in that discussion or 8 record of discussion, any discussion about the police 9 assisting the MNR in obtaining an injunction; is that 10 right? 11 A: That's -- that's accurate, yes. 12 Q: Right. And although there is 13 discussion in that report of an injunction, there's no 14 discussion of the OPP testifying in support of it? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And you don't recall any discussion 17 of testifying in support of an injunction? 18 A: The testifying in support of the 19 injunction came with the call from Mr. McCabe as 20 requesting that I provide viva voce evidence in that 21 regard. 22 Q: All right. Well I'll get into that 23 later when we have more time. But that -- all right 24 that's -- that's very useful. 25
2061 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 I think, Deputy Commissioner Carson, the 4 time we have available today, I'd like to return to a 5 topic I said I would return to earlier which was the 6 incident that Mark Wright reported when he attended the - 7 - the corner of Army Camp Road and Parkway, which was 8 right near the -- the Park entrance. 9 Now before he arrived at that corner, he 10 had left the meeting of the cottagers and other residents 11 who had held a meeting in the area of the TOC or nearby, 12 as we discussed before, and he had attended that meeting 13 at your request; is that right? 14 A: I believe that's how it came to 15 pass, yes. 16 Q: Now, did you request or suggest that 17 Detective Sergeant Wright proceed further or do anything 18 after that meeting; do you recall? 19 A: Quite frankly, by memory, I don't 20 even recall me -- myself directing him down there but, I 21 mean, it's clear from the documentation I must have done 22 that. So, you know, whether I directed him to do other 23 things while he was there, my memory doesn't -- just -- I 24 really don't know. 25 Q: All right. And he, himself, would
2071 have been at the end of the shift, as we discussed, 2 correct? 3 A: Yeah, we were working the same hours. 4 Q: Yes. And he would have been expected 5 to return to the command post in Forest after the 6 completion of his shift; is that right? 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: And so if the meeting that he had 9 attended was extending past the end of the shift, you 10 would expect or even hope or require him to retain -- to 11 return back to the command post for briefing; is that 12 right? 13 A: That's fair. 14 Q: And, in fact, the most direct way 15 back to the command post from the TOC parking lot is not 16 to go past the Park, but it's to go the other way, back 17 towards Forest; is that right? 18 So, in fact, we can -- 19 A: The most direct? 20 Q: Yes. Or am I wrong -- 21 A: Well, we're talking about a seven 22 hundred (700) metre difference over ten (10) kilometres. 23 Q: So, you don't think it's significant? 24 A: Not in my view, but... 25 Q: Okay. And -- well, at a minimum,
2081 Detective Sergeant Wright took it upon himself to turn 2 east rather than west when he left that -- 3 A: Yes, he did, yes. 4 Q: -- spot. Yeah. Yes. 5 And so that took him past the Park -- 6 A: Yes, it did. 7 Q: -- is that right? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, I'd like you to turn to the -- 12 to Tab 10 which is in the document binder I've prepared, 13 which is Inquiry Document 1000886. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And just as we're waiting for them to 18 appear, these appear to be, as they say, notebook entries 19 of acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Okay. And if you could turn to 24 what's identified, I think, as page 1061. 25
2091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yes, thank you. 4 And I want to ask you about the contents 5 of Detective Sergeant Wright's notes to see whether you 6 agree or disagree with some of the positions he took 7 there, and also just to understand the role, if any, from 8 your perspective of this meeting with respect to what 9 followed at the Park. 10 Near the top of that page, 1061, there's 11 the word "advised"; do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I'd just like to -- to read that, 14 quote: 15 "Advised of possible march, Ipperwash 16 residents, to the front gates of the 17 park. Protest to begin at 18:00 hours 18 at Port Franks." 19 Do you recall asking Detective Sergeant 20 Wright to go to Port Franks for this? 21 I think you mentioned you didn't, but does 22 this bring any memories back? 23 A: I'm aware of the information, but the 24 semantics of the direction I can't be 100 percent sure, 25 in all fairness.
2101 Q: Right. And it says: 2 "Attend Port Franks community centre. 3 Nobody there. Locals..." 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: "...Locate --" 6 A: Locate. 7 Q: "-- approximately thirty (30) or 8 forty (40) civilians, 9 men/women/children, prepared to march 10 into Ipperwash Provincial Park. Points 11 I covered with these people were as 12 follows: 13 - to march would be dangerous, an OPP 14 could not guarantee their safety. 15 - to march would not be illegal." 16 And so, I just would like to ask you about 17 that. 18 His notes say that the civilians were 19 prepared to march, and he uses the word, "into" Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park. Were you aware that his evidence was -- 21 or were you aware from anywhere else, that the civilian 22 gathering was talking about marching into Ipperwash 23 Provincial Park? 24 A: That was my understanding. 25 Q: Is that right?
2111 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And is it fair to say that that would 3 be potentially very volatile? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Because that would involve the 6 civilians who, I think it's fair to say, were not 7 sympathetic to the First Nation claims; is that fair? 8 A: That's fair, yes. 9 Q: To having those civilians march into 10 the actual Park where the First Nations people at the 11 time were claiming that it was their property and that 12 there were burial grounds there; is that right? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Now, the second hyphen or bullet 15 point that I referred you to seems to suggest that 16 Detective Sergeant Wright said to them that to march 17 would not be illegal. 18 Do you see that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, would you agree with me that at 21 that point in time, the Park had been declared closed by 22 MNR staff; is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And, in fact, no one was permitted to 25 go into the Park at that point; is that fair?
2121 A: That's technically right, yes. 2 Q: That's technically right? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And so -- and, although that was 5 being said in no uncertain terms to the First Nations 6 people at the time, that they could not be in the Park 7 and that they were trespassers if they were -- first of 8 all, that was being said to the First Nations protesters; 9 is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: We appear to have a suggestion here 12 by Detective Sergeant Wright that for them to march, as 13 they say, into the Park, would not be illegal. 14 Now, if that's what he advised them, would 15 you agree with me that that's not really accurate? 16 A: It's -- it's speculation on what he 17 advised them. I guess if -- if we're making an 18 assumption that he said it was okay to go into the Park - 19 - if it's -- is that -- am I fair in -- is that -- I just 20 want to sure I understand your question. 21 Q: Yeah, it's not an assumption. I'm 22 just saying the evidence here suggests that that's what 23 he said to them. It's not an assumption, that's what his 24 notes show. 25 A: That -- but I don't know if these --
2131 if these notes are -- I can't say that these notes are 2 indicative of what he actually said to them as opposed to 3 his notes of the gist of the discussion. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: I mean, in all fairness, if -- if he 6 said that for them to go into the Park would not be 7 illegal, I would agree that's an issue, but I'm just a 8 little cautious here that it's the march to the Park that 9 -- legal/not illegal; the -- the matter of the group 10 walking down the road together. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: So, I'm -- you know, in all fairness, 13 I --I wasn't party to any of this discussion and he's 14 never shared these notes with me before, so I -- I'm 15 guessing at best here. 16 Q: But, it's clear to -- as you said -- 17 A: But the Park is closed. 18 Q: And, it's clear as you said that it 19 was their expressed intention to march not just to the 20 Park, but into it? 21 A: That -- that was my perception. 22 Q: Okay. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: Excuse me for a 24 moment. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr.
2141 Sandler? 2 MR. MARK SANDLER: I just want to make 3 clear and this is -- again, this is just one (1) of the 4 dangers -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- of -- of cross- 7 examining this Witness on documents that aren't his. And 8 on the next page of the notes: 9 "Meeting ended with civilians agreeing 10 not march to the Park [not into the 11 Park]." 12 So, again, until we hear from Detective -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- Sergeant Wright I'm 15 a little concerned about -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We all are, 17 but I think we're doing all right so far. 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. I -- I 19 appreciate My Friend's concern and I was about to -- to 20 address that because I think, as it was said, if there 21 was a plan to march into the Park, it clearly would have 22 been inflammatory. 23 Now, if you turn to Tab 8 of -- 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm sorry, I just want 25 to say one (1) other thing.
2151 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 2 second, Mr. Klippenstein. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: I apologise. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm sorry, Mr. 6 Klippenstein. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: I was just pointing 9 out, and I'm not objecting to the cross-examination, but 10 I'm just concerned because at the top of one-o-six one 11 (1061), 12 "Advised I'd be giving evidence at the 13 injunction tomorrow. Advised of 14 possible march by Ipperwash residents 15 to the front gates of the Park." 16 And again, I'm just concerned, as long as 17 all of it's being put to him, for his commentary, I'll 18 certainly abide by the Commissioner's rule. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Thank you. I 21 was about to basically identify other instances that very 22 clearly suggest that there was an intention into the 23 Park, and as I've mentioned, at Tab 8, there's an excerpt 24 from the examination of the discovery of Mr. Wright -- 25 and do you have Tab 5 -- Tab 8?
2161 Deputy Commissioner, you all right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that that Tab has page 109 of the 4 examination of Mark Wright; do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the paragraph that begins: 7 "He initially sent me to Port 8 Franks...". 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And the last paragraph, the last 11 sentence, excuse me in that paragraph says, quote: 12 "And their intention was to march into 13 the Park, Ipperwash Provincial Park." 14 End of quote. 15 And then he continues: 16 "Well, I spent the better part of an 17 hour pleading with these people not to 18 do that." Close quote. 19 And in that discussion, when you look at 20 it, he's clearly not reading it from his notes. 21 So, my suggestion to you is that, and 22 we'll certainly ask Detective Sergeant Wright about this, 23 that he seems to be again suggesting that the intention 24 was to march into the Park; is that right? 25 A: I'm sorry, I have -- I'm not sure I
2171 understand. 2 Q: My -- my suggestion is that the 3 anticipated evidence again, in addition to his notes, is 4 based on his examination for discovery, he meant 'into 5 the Park', not 'to the Park'; is that fair? 6 Sorry, based on what he says in the 7 anticipated evidence, it's fair for us to conclude that 8 the word 'into' is not an accident? 9 A: It -- all I can tell you is my 10 perception that the people who had met at the MNR parking 11 lot were going down into the Park; is the perception I 12 had. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I -- you know, I can't speak to his-- 15 Q: Right. Do you recall to why you had 16 that perception? 17 A: At -- I have to -- my best guess, I 18 mean, it was the result of discussion that Mark and I 19 would have had, subsequent to the -- to his meeting down 20 there. 21 Q: Now, also I note in the notes of Mr. 22 Wright at Tab 10, and I wonder if -- and at page -- page 23 1060, Detective Sergeant Wright is referring to a 24 discussion he had at the Park. At the very top, he said 25 he:
2181 "Continued to wait for someone to 2 approach me and talk. Did not go 3 beyond fence line Provincial Park." 4 What that seems to indicate that when he 5 wrote these notes, Detective Sergeant Wright was very 6 aware of the fence line and the boundary of the Park; is 7 that fair? 8 A: Well, I would suggest that to be very 9 accurate, yes. 10 Q: In fact he was, not only for this but 11 for many other reasons, he was very issue -- very alive 12 to the issue of the difference between into the Park and 13 to the Park; is that -- 14 A: I would think so, yes. 15 Q: Yes. Now when you sent Detective 16 Sergeant Wright to the -- to the Park -- sorry, to the 17 meeting, do you recall, or do you know if there's any 18 evidence of what you suggested he do with respect to this 19 potential confrontation? 20 A: I have no note to the discussion that 21 we would have had before he left. So, at very best, I'd 22 have to make some assumptions here today based on the 23 outcome. 24 Q: No I'm just -- thank you. I'm asking 25 you whether you had any evidence. And do you know
2191 whether the occupiers of the Park, do you have evidence; 2 have you seen any evidence whether the occupiers of the 3 Park were aware that there was a meeting of civilians 4 point seven (.7) kilometres down the road which was 5 apparently intending to march down into the Park? 6 A: I don't know if they knew that. 7 Q: Now would you agree with me that the 8 reports of -- including from Detective Sergeant Mark 9 Wright of First Nations people at the entrance to the 10 Park having clubs or sticks would be more understandable 11 if they were aware of the apparent attention of this 12 group of cottagers to march into the Park? 13 A: I don't know how you could draw that 14 rational conclusion. 15 Q: Well I'm wondering if -- well let me 16 -- let me rephrase the question by returning to Detective 17 Sergeant Mark Wright's report of his arrival at the Sandy 18 Parking Lot after having left that meeting, and that was 19 at Tab 34... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And page 10 of that -- of that 24 interview report; that's Exhibit P-462. 25 You've looked at this earlier today and
2201 Detective Sergeant Wright, and interestingly again on 2 this occasion he talks about the march on the Park, at 3 the top of the page. 4 And then at the -- towards the bottom of 5 the page he begins his report of what he saw when he got 6 there. And he says that, at the bottom of page 10: 7 "When I got there I saw approximately 8 eight (8) to ten (10) Native males 9 standing on the edge of the road, where 10 the road meets the sand. And four (4) 11 to five (5) of them had what I would 12 describe as clubs in the hand." 13 Did you personally ever travel down to the 14 Sandy Parking Lot on the 4th or 5th or 6th prior to you 15 leaving your shift at the end of the 6th? 16 A: I believe I drove through there on 17 the afternoon of the 5th with Inspector Linton. 18 Q: With Inspector Linton? 19 A: I believe so, when -- when he 20 reported for duty in the afternoon of Tuesday afternoon. 21 I believe him and I, together, did a quick trip around 22 that area. 23 Q: And you drove along the same route 24 that Detective Sergeant Mark would have driven here; in 25 other words going one way or the other, Army Camp Road,
2211 East Parkway around that corner, at the Park? 2 A: One way or the other. 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: There's not -- there's no other 5 option. 6 Q: And do you recall seeing 7 anything like what Detective Sergeant Wright describes 8 here, were there native people on the Sandy Parking Lot? 9 A: I don't recall anybody being on the 10 sandy parking lot when I went through there. 11 Q: And is it fair to say that that 12 probably suggests there wasn't anybody on the sandy 13 parking lot because you would have noticed it if there 14 was? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: And so when Detective Sergeant Wright 17 travelled down here to that same parking lot, he says 18 that there were native males standing on the edge of the 19 road? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, have you ever seen any evidence 22 or heard anything from Detective Sergeant Wright to 23 suggest that the natives there were blocking his passage 24 on the paved road? 25 A: No.
2221 Q: And would you agree with me that, or 2 have you seen any evidence -- let me rephrase that. Have 3 you seen any evidence, or been advised of any evidence, 4 that suggests that he was pressured to stop when he went 5 by? 6 A: Not that I'm aware of. 7 Q: All right. And he suggests that four 8 (4) or five (5) of them had clubs in their hand -- in 9 their -- in their hands, but he also notes that they 10 looked like axe handles, and he notes that it was getting 11 dark out and he wasn't real close to them, right? 12 A: That's what it says, yes. 13 Q: And would you agree with me that 14 suggests we should be cautious about drawing conclusions 15 about what they were? 16 A: Well, I mean, he'd have to speak to 17 what he thought it was, sir. 18 Q: But what he did say was that it was 19 getting dark and he wasn't close to them, and what we 20 should do as a result is be cautious about drawing 21 conclusions about what he saw in their hands, is that 22 fair; because it was dark and he -- it was getting dark 23 and he wasn't close to them? 24 A: Well, that -- that's a bit of a 25 stretch, in my view. I mean, if he feels he saw them
2231 having -- carrying something in their hands that to him 2 resembled axe handles, they may not have been an axe 3 handle, but it may have been something similar, so I -- 4 I'm not so sure that I would discount the fact that he 5 saw them carrying something that resembled that type of 6 object. 7 Q: Right. I don't disagree with you, 8 but that's probably just about as far as we should take 9 it, because he, himself, has recorded that it was getting 10 dark out, and he wasn't real close to them, and therefore 11 when we assess what he's reporting to us, either at that 12 time or now, we should take it no farther than what 13 you've just said, isn't that fair? 14 A: Well, only -- only he can speak to 15 that sir, I -- I can't speak to what he saw. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 17 last question went over the line. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually, the evidence 19 of the occupiers -- of some of the occupiers who have 20 testified is that they did have things in their hands -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- when they were out 23 in the Sandy Parking Lot, that is the evidence from -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the people in the
2241 Sandy Parking Lot. 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I -- I'm not 3 suggesting -- I don't believe my questions did suggest 4 that we should say they didn't have anything, my question 5 was also not directed to what -- what Detective Wright 6 believed. 7 My question was that in assessing what he 8 said here, whether it's you as an Incident Commander at 9 the time, or us in Inquiry now, we need to be aware that 10 he apparently said it was getting dark out and it was 11 getting -- he was not close to them, and that should 12 affect our evaluation of what he said, isn't that fair? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: No. If Mark Wright came back to the 16 command post and told me that he observed people on that 17 Sandy Parking Lot carrying either axe handles or axe 18 handle-type objects, I would take that that they were 19 carrying something in their hand. 20 I would not go into a questioning of him 21 as to the lighting conditions and whether -- what type of 22 object he actually had observed, and could it have been 23 something else? 24 If, I mean, I -- I know Mark Wright well 25 enough that I would have taken at face value what he said
2251 because I believe if he said that's what he saw, that's 2 what he believed he saw. 3 Q: I -- don't misunderstand me. I'm not 4 suggesting that he should be -- his view that there was 5 something in their hands should be discounted. 6 I'm not saying there wasn't anything 7 there, I'm simply saying, realistically -- and the reason 8 I'm asking this, Deputy Commissioner Carson, is that 9 we've already seen in my -- my submission, and probably 10 we'll see more, that the whole issue of bats and their 11 proximity to cars is frankly important to the death of 12 the person whose estate I represent. 13 And I -- so, I'm not being trivial about 14 this. And my point is simply that when Deputy -- or 15 Detective Sergeant Wright or anyone else says they saw: 16 "What I would describe as clubs, they 17 looked to me like axe handles that's 18 what they looked to me anyways. 19 It was getting dark out and I wasn't 20 real close to them" 21 Means that we should evaluate that, in 22 other words, what it was in their hands with caution 23 because it was dark out, and he wasn't close. 24 Is that fair? 25 A: Well, I -- I don't want to be
2261 argumentative about this but that isn't the way it was 2 reported to me. I don't remember ever any discussion him 3 telling me that well there was a problem telling what it 4 was because it was a distance away. They had objects in 5 their hands. 6 Q: Now I think, Deputy Commissioner 7 Carson, this is precisely why I'm concerned. Earlier you 8 said that based on that phone call, perhaps on other 9 things as well, you understood that there were Natives 10 with bats in their hands. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Now I'm not saying that that's not 13 what Deputy -- or Detective Sergeant Wright said to you, 14 what I'm finding difficult to deal with is that in his 15 test -- in his interview on a day or two later, 16 apparently, Detective Sergeant Wright is not saying bats, 17 the word 'bats' doesn't appear, and instead he's saying 18 he wasn't close to them and it was getting dark outside. 19 And I'm suggesting to you that the fact 20 that he's saying it's dark and he wasn't close is a 21 matter of caution to us in evaluating what it was. 22 And furthermore, the fact that he seems to 23 have changed from what he told you about bats, to 24 something much less certain, means we too should be a 25 little cautious about being sure about what -- whether
2271 there were bats. Isn't that fair? 2 A: Well I -- that's the question you 3 have to pose to Sergeant Wright, sir. 4 Q: No, I'm posing it to you, Deputy 5 Commissioner Carson, be cause you were Incident Commander 6 and you're testifying for the overall situation there. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I think 8 you should move on, Mr. -- I don't need to hear from him 9 Mr. Sandler. You've asked the question two (2) or three 10 (3) times and he's answered as best he can and I think 11 you should move to the next question. 12 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. I'm sorry. I apologize, it's been a long 14 day. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 16 fine. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 21 Q: Now, Deputy Commissioner, continuing 22 also with the same description from Detective Sergeant 23 Wright about that particular incident at the Sandy 24 Parking Lot, he says: 25 "They were waving the clubs a bit.
2281 What they were doing is a number of 2 them were holding them in one hand and 3 slapping it in the other hand, and I 4 took that as an intimidating gesture as 5 far as I was concerned." 6 Now I'd like to ask you as the Incident 7 Commander at the time, how you would evaluate a report 8 that a number of them were holding what appeared to be a 9 club or an axe handle, in one hand and slapping it in the 10 other hand. 11 Is that -- what is that? 12 A: You're asking for my personal 13 opinion? 14 Q: No, I'm asking your opinion as an 15 Incident Commander at the time, who received a report 16 similar to this -- well first of all, do you recall 17 receiving any report from Detective Sergeant at the time 18 describing what I just read? 19 A: Not in the context of this statement, 20 no. 21 Q: Do you recall him -- or do you have 22 any notes or recollections that Detective Sergeant Wright 23 brought to you attention that he saw people -- I think he 24 uses another word -- tapping sticks in their hands? 25 A: Quite frankly, so much of this
2291 information has come up and -- and so many different 2 forms over the years, it is very difficult to determine 3 at which juncture I learned which piece. 4 So I'm very cautious here of saying what I 5 did or didn't know on that given day and time. 6 But what strikes me is that day I -- I 7 remember that I had a sense that when Mark Wright stopped 8 at that corner, because of the activities there, he felt 9 was in his best personal interests, relative to his 10 personal safety, that he move on very quickly and leave 11 the area. 12 I mean, that's -- that's the overall sense 13 as I recall it from memory. 14 Q: Right, now again, he wasn't stopped 15 by anybody there to the best of your information, was he? 16 A: As I understand it -- 17 Q: He stopped of his own free will. 18 A: -- he stopped of his own volition. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And in fact, all the reports we have 22 is that they advised him to move along, right? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: So he stopped of his own freewill, 25 and --
2301 A: I believe he got into some discussion 2 with one (1) of the persons there. 3 Q: Right. And so you don't recall 4 whether he, at any point, at that point said that the -- 5 the sticks or axe handles, or bats were used in a 6 threatening manner towards him. 7 You don't recall, it's ten (10) years 8 later now, I recognize the difficulty of that, but that - 9 - that he was -- that he told you that the sticks or bats 10 that people had were -- were moved in a threatening 11 manner towards him? 12 A: I -- I can't, in -- in all fairness, 13 articulate to you today that if the reason he felt he 14 better move out of there in short order was based on what 15 somebody said to them, or actions they displayed to him. 16 And so, you know, in all fairness, 17 Detective Sergeant Wright would have to explain that, 18 because quite frankly, I -- I just -- I can't tell you. 19 Q: And do you recall now, whether the 20 incident that Mark Wright described at the Sandy Parking 21 Lot was a factor in your mind at that point in time, in 22 evaluating what -- in -- in evaluating a situation which 23 led to the use of the riot squad and TRU? 24 A: Yes, it -- it was one of the factors. 25 Q: All right.
2311 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If you could turn to Tab 10 of the 4 binder I've provided, and I've referred to these 5 handwritten notes of Deputy -- Sergeant Wright a number 6 of times, and Commissioner, perhaps we could mark those 7 as exhibits -- as an exhibit? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-471, your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-471: Document 100886 page 1059 to 11 1065 handwritten notes of 12 Mark Wright September 06, 13 06:30-16:44. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 16 Q: Which is the -- a collection of 17 apparent handwritten notes by Detective Sergeant Mark 18 Wright from page 1059 to 1065. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, on page 1063 of these notes, at 23 the top of the page he says, quote: 24 "As I travelled up..." 25 I don't understand the word,
2321 "...this road allowance -- past this 2 road allowance, I observed eight (8) to 3 ten (10) male natives standing on the 4 edge of the road." 5 Now, it appears to me that these notes, in 6 their reference to eight (8) to ten (10) male natives, 7 differ from the radio call that we observed earlier, 8 which -- or that we listened to earlier, which said up to 9 ten (10) natives, which in itself, as My Friend pointed 10 out, differs from the scribe note references to 11 apparently that radio call which says ten (10). 12 So, we have a variety of numbers being 13 tossed around here; is that right? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: ItÆs the scribe notes 18 that said, Ten (10). It was the actual radio 19 transmissions that said, Up to eight (8). 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 22 Q: My recollection is that the radio 23 transmission said, Up to eight (8), rather than 24 specifying eight (8). My Friend may be correcting me, 25 but I just want to double-check.
2331 Anyway, the point is, there's a 2 discrepancy between the numbers in the various reports 3 that seem to be very approximate in time; is that right? 4 A: Fair enough. 5 Q: And on the same page of -- of 6 Detective Sergeant Wright's notes he refers -- he says, 7 quote: 8 "Approximately four (4) to five (5) of 9 these males were holding 10 clubs/sticks/axe/ bats handles." 11 And again, we appear to have significant 12 difference in the report of what there is, because this 13 seems to include anything from bats to sticks to clubs; 14 is that right -- is that fair? 15 A: I'm sorry. 16 Q: Anybody -- I'm not talking about what 17 Detective Sergeant Wright's ideas were at the time, I'm 18 talking about an interpretation that you or I have to 19 make. 20 A: Quite frankly, I -- I don't know how 21 you can hope that I can interpret his notes, sir. I 22 mean, if it's a bat, an axe handle, or a stick, maybe 23 some had bats, some had axe handles, some had sticks, I 24 don't know. You know, you're -- you're putting me in a 25 box here where I have to interpret what he might be
2341 meaning by his own description in his personal notes. 2 The -- you know, there are no descriptors 3 to -- to help me here answer your question. I -- I'd 4 love to be able to say two (2) had a bat, one (1) had an 5 axe handle and four (4) had nothing, but I -- I don't -- 6 I don't have that kind of information and I don't know 7 how I can draw it out of the air, sir. 8 Q: Now this, however, seems to be quite 9 different from the information that you got over the 10 phone, which was bats, right; that was the impression you 11 were left with, was bats? 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: Okay 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: Commissioner, I don't know if this is 16 a good time to -- to break for the day, but -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's as good 18 a time as any. If we're going to adjourn close to 5:00, 19 it's close to 5:00 now. You'll continue in the morning? 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Nine 22 o'clock? Do you have some reasonable estimate as to how 23 much longer you might be with this Witness? 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I expect to be 25 probably most of the day, if not the whole day.
2351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tomorrow? 2 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 5 sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 7 adjourn for now until 9:00 tomorrow morning. Thank you. 8 9 (WITNESS RETIRES) 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 12 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday June the 7th at 9:00 13 a.m. 14 15 --- Upon adjourning at 4:56 p.m. 16 17 18 19 Certified Correct 20 21 22 _____________________ 23 Dustin Warnock 24 25