11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 5th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 Erin McLaughlin ) Student-at-law 13 Hugo Leal-Neri ) Student-at-law 14 15 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 16 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 17 Amanda Rogers ) Student-at-law 18 19 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 20 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 21 Kevin Scullion ) 22 23 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 24 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 25 Colleen Johnson )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 6 7 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 8 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 9 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 10 11 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 12 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 13 Jennifer McAleer ) 14 15 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 16 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 17 18 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 19 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 3 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 4 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 5 Trevor Hinnegan ) 6 7 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 8 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 9 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 10 11 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 12 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 13 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 14 Ian McGilp ) (np) 15 Annie Leeks ) (np) 16 Jennifer Gleitman ) 17 Robyn Trask ) 18 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (Np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 JOHN EDWARD SLOMER, Resumed 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Hugo Leal-Neri 12 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 13 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 74 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 88 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 103 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 113 11 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 131 12 Re-Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 146 13 Re-Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 153 14 15 Ruling on Motion 161 16 17 JOHN RICHARD SLACK, Sworn 18 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 176 19 Cross-Examination by Ms. Erin McLaughlin 287 20 Cross-Examination by Ms. Amanda Rogers 292 21 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 303 22 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 314 23 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer Gleitman 322 24 25 Certificate of Transcript 326
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1616 Document Number 2005535. Resume of 4 John Richard Slack 178 5 P-1617 Document Number 2005578. Handwritten 6 notebook entries of John Slack, July 7 29-31, August 11-14, August 23-27, 1995. 186 8 P-1618 Document Number 2003876. Statement 9 (typed) Sgt. John R. Slack - Typed and 10 handwritten notebook entries from 11 September 01 to October 12, 1995. 198 12 P-1619 Transcript of Region 1, Jacklin, Slack, 13 Peter Japp, Unknown Male, September 05, 14 1995, 19:55 hrs, Mobile Command Unit: 15 From OPP logger tape number 2, Track 1, 16 Disc 1 of 3. 207 17 P-1620 Transcript of Region 2, John Slack, 18 Wayde Jacklin, September 05, 1995, 19 20:15 hrs, Mobile Command Unit; from OPP 20 Logger tape number 2, Track 1, Disc 21 1 of 3. 210 22 P-1621 Transcript of Region 03, John Slack, 23 Wayde Jacklin, September 05, 1995, 22:44 24 hrs, Mobile Command Unit: From OPP Logger 25 tape number 2, Track 3 , Disc 1 of 3. 218
91 List of Exhibits 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1622 Transcript of Region 04, Lima 1-Delta 4 (Sgt John Slack), Lima 2, September 06, 5 1995, 23:18 hrs, Logger tape number 6 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 250 7 P-1623 Reserved. 251 8 P-1624 Transcript of Region 05, Lima 1, Delta 9 (Sgt John Slack) September 06, 1995, 10 23:19 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 12, 11 Disc 12 of 20. 261 12 P-1625 Transcript of Region 06, Delta(Sgt John 13 Slack), Lima 2, September 06, 1995, 23:22 14 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 15 of 20 262 16 P-1626 Transcript of Region 07, Delta(Sgt John 17 Slack), Lima 1, September 06, 1995, 23:27 18 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 19 of 20 264 20 P-1627 Transcript of Region 08, Delta (Sgt John 21 Slack), Lima 1, September 06, 1995, 23:39 22 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 23 or 20. 267 24 25
101 List of Exhibits 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1628 Transcript of Region 09, Delta (Sgt 4 John Slack), Lima 1, Lima 2, September 5 06, 1995, 23:46 hrs, Logger tape 0146, 6 Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 268 7 P-1629 Transcript of Region 10, Delta(Sgt John 8 Slack), Lima 1, September 06, 1995, 23:50 9 hrs, Logger tape 0146 270 10 P-1630 Transcript of Region 11, 2424, Sgt John 11 Slack, September 06, 1995, 23:52 hrs, 12 Logger tape 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20.271 13 P-1631 Transcript of Region 12, Lima 1, Delta 14 (Sgt John Slack) September 06, 1995, 23:54 15 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 16 of 20 273 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everyone. Good morning, Mr. Alexander. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 Although we didn't ask for any time at the 11 -- at the -- when the cross estimates were done, upon 12 reflection we do have a very short cross for Constable 13 Slomer. So I would -- I would respectfully request it 14 would be no -- no more than five (5) minutes if that 15 would be all right. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 17 can accommodate that, Mr. Alexander. 18 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. And Mr. Leal-Neri will be conducting the 20 cross on our behalf. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Good morning. 23 MR. HUGO LEAL-NERI: Good morning, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25
121 JOHN EDWARD SLOMER, Resumed 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HUGO LEAL-NERI: 4 Q: Good morning, Officer Slomer. 5 A: Good morning. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: My name is Hugo Leal-Neri and I 10 represent the Estate of Dudley George and several members 11 of the George family including Sam George. 12 I have one (1) area that I want to explore 13 with you. As I understand your evidence your role as a 14 tactical medic on the night of September 6th was to 15 provide medical support for both officers and others 16 within the danger zone or inner perimeter that TRU was 17 operating in, correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And that night when TRU returned to 20 the TOC you overheard that Sergeant Deane thought he had 21 shot someone, but before you could act on that 22 information you were presented with a patient that turned 23 out to be Cecil Bernard George, correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Can you tell me what follow-up you
131 did, if any, with respect to the person that Sergeant 2 Deane thought he had shot? 3 A: None, sir. 4 Q: Thank you, Constable Slomer. I have 5 no further questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 Thank you, sir. 8 Mr. Rosenthal...? 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning, sir. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Good morning, sir. 16 A: Good morning, sir. 17 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm 18 counsel on behalf of some of the Stoney Point people 19 under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, you've had experience as a 24 medic, both in the Military and in a policing situation, 25 right?
141 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And I understand that in the military 3 situation it's considered important that vehicles that 4 are marked as ambulances or as medical vehicles be 5 distinguished from vehicles that are involved in 6 aggressive military operations; is that right? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And the idea is that you don't want 9 anybody ever to use, say, an ambulance as a way of 10 attacking people because you want it to be known that an 11 ambulance is a vehicle that should be respected as a 12 medical vehicle and shouldn't be counterattacked by 13 anybody, right? That's the rough idea? 14 A: That's correct. And they're -- 15 they're marked. And that's actually a provision in the 16 Geneva Convention -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- that ambulances not be used in 19 aggressive -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- fashion. 22 Q: Now, we understand that in the 23 situation before this tribunal, the events of September 24 1995, there was a vehicle in the Tactical Operations 25 Centre that was labelled St. John's Ambulance but, in
151 fact, was used not for medical purposes but for policing 2 purposes. Were you aware of that, sir? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: You weren't aware of that at the 5 time? 6 A: Which -- which vehicle are you -- 7 Q: I -- we understand there was a large 8 trailer of some kind marked St. John's Ambulance that was 9 in the TOC? 10 A: Oh, yes, sir. Yeah. 11 Q: You were aware of that? 12 A: Well, I'm aware. I didn't actually 13 see the markings but I'm aware of the trailer, yes. 14 Q: Yes. And some of the First Nations 15 people, especially afterward, were quite angered by that 16 when they felt that for example that Dudley George had 17 not received adequate ambulance or medical attention and 18 here was a vehicle marked as an ambulance and was being 19 used for aggressive police purposes in their view rather 20 than for medical purposes. 21 Do you -- given what you told us about the 22 Geneva Convention do you see that as a serious problem, 23 sir? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: Do you see it as a problem at all?
161 A: I can see how it could be construed 2 as problem. It's -- it was -- to start with it was a 3 borrowed vehicle. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: It was a borrowed vehicle so it 6 didn't belong to the OPP. 7 Q: Well, so in -- 8 A: It wasn't used -- 9 Q: -- so it would be okay if the 10 Canadian Forces in Afghanistan borrowed a Red Cross 11 ambulance and started driving towards combatants and 12 shooting machine guns out of that ambulance? 13 A: This is -- this is a trailer. It 14 wasn't driven towards anyone. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: It was parked. 17 Q: But it was used for policing 18 purposes, not for medical purposes, right? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: It was used as a command post. 22 Q: And don't -- 23 A: Which is that vehicle's function. 24 Q: And you as a healthcare provider, you 25 don't have any problem with that?
171 A: No. 2 Q: Thank you. Now, let's go to Cecil 3 Bernard George. 4 With respect to the Glasgow Coma Scale I 5 gather that a rating of thirteen (13) to fifteen (15) 6 generally indicates a mild head injury and nine (9) to 7 twelve (12) is a moderate head injury and so on down the 8 line. 9 A: That's -- 10 Q: Is that correct? 11 A: That would be correct. 12 Q: Now, you do an examination of the 13 three (3) different components and come to your 14 conclusion as to what the ultimate rating is, right? 15 A: Yes, the -- you do the rating and it 16 establishes a baseline. 17 Q: Yes. Now, you could have described 18 his responses, in part, as you examined him on that 19 evening as that he wouldn't really answer though he was 20 rousable, right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And being rousable is better than not 23 being rousable, right? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: But on the other hand it's not as
181 good as answering directly? 2 A: Yes. Now that, what we're talking 3 about right now, that's actually outside the sphere of 4 the Glasgow Coma scale. 5 Q: Well, let's look at the Glasgow Coma 6 scale a bit. The third component is motor movement, 7 right? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Now, when you testified on May 26th, 10 at one point you told us you thought you deducted a point 11 for that; do you recall that, sir? 12 A: Yes, I did. That was an error. 13 Q: But, in fact, you didn't deduct the 14 point for -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. But, in fairness, it might have 17 been appropriate to deduct the point for his motor 18 response given the fact that sometimes he moved to a 19 command but sometimes he required a pinching, as you told 20 us, right? 21 A: No, because the Glasgow Coma Scale 22 measures the best response. So the fact that if I asked 23 him three (3) times and once out of the three (3) times 24 he was able to move to command then you'd remark that as 25 moved to command.
191 Q: Well, why did you tell us on May 2 26th, at first, that you thought you deducted a point for 3 motor response? 4 A: I'm not sure. 5 Q: Isn't that because, in thinking about 6 it, you recognize he had some problem with motor response 7 and at least one (1) point should have been deducted, 8 sir? 9 A: No, it's not. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: But just one (1) point. A point -- 12 if we're talking the difference between twelve (12) and 13 thirteen (13) -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- that's not actually considered a 16 difference. 17 Q: It's not considered a difference? 18 A: It's not considered a difference. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: It's -- it's -- what's considered a 21 difference in Glasgow Coma Scale is a decrease of two (2) 22 would be considered significant. 23 Q: A decrease of one (1) is not 24 significant? 25 A: A decrease of one (1) point --
201 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- that can be -- that could be 3 attributed to the cooperation level of a patient. The 4 fact that two (2) different operators assess the same 5 patient. The scale as -- as validated to be reliable 6 between operators that use it properly. But there will 7 still be some -- some variability. 8 Q: So you're saying that a variation of 9 one (1) is not considered significant whereas a variation 10 of two (2) would be more significant? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: But, on the other hand, there's a 13 general boundary line between twelve (12) and thirteen 14 (13), in general, that leads to a different rough 15 description, right, as you told us a few minutes ago? 16 A: That's correct. But clinically in 17 the field there's no difference -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: between -- between mild or moderate. 20 What determines mild or moderate in the long-term is the 21 trending. So it's the multiple application of the scale 22 to the patient and their response, whether they -- 23 they're numerical value improves or decreases over time. 24 Q: Now, sir, when you assess a patient 25 with respect to the Glasgow Coma Scale you record your
211 assessment as you go, I presume; is that correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: So you'd record the number of points 4 that you assign in each of the three (3) categories? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you conducted your assessment 7 with respect to the Glasgow Coma Scale twice on this 8 evening you told us? 9 A: At least twice, yes. 10 Q: At least twice? 11 A: At least twice. 12 Q: Or perhaps more than twice? 13 A: It's possible because you're -- 14 you're -- you are -- you -- it's an ongoing -- assessment 15 is an ongoing process. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: So although you specifically look at 18 the patient and try to score those things together you 19 may go back and talk to the patient in between. If I got 20 a different verbal response at that point then I would -- 21 would -- 22 Q: Yes. So at least twice you assessed 23 Mr. George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: With respect to motor response --
221 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- I presume you didn't get full 3 marks each of the two (2) or more times did you, sir? 4 A: He was able to move all four (4) 5 limbs to... 6 Q: Did you get -- did you rate him as 7 six (6) out of six (6) each of -- 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: -- the several times, sir? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And where are your notes about that, 12 sir? 13 A: They're the ones that I inadvertently 14 destroyed. 15 Q: They're the ones you inadvertently 16 destroyed? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, sir, did you not, in fact, have 19 notes of times and so on that you inadvertently 20 destroyed, right? 21 A: Not times, no. 22 Q: Not times? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You had EMS notebooks that you 25 inadvertently destroyed?
231 A: Yes but I -- well, the notebook is 2 separate -- on a call to -- not to write patient 3 information in that notebook. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: That would be -- what would -- I 6 would record in the notebook would be information 7 regarding briefings, tasks that I'd been assigned. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: On a call you'd tend to write on the 10 back of your hand on a piece of adhesive tape on a card 11 that you keep in your pocket which I believe is how I 12 recorded things that night. 13 Q: And that's what you would refer to as 14 rough notes? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the rough note you didn't 17 destroy, right? 18 A: Well, at some point I did yes -- 19 Q: You did destroy rough notes? 20 A: I think they were with -- yes, I 21 think they were with -- 22 Q: Sorry? 23 A: I think they were with in the 24 notebook. 25 Q: You think they were with the
241 notebooks? 2 A: My notebook, yes. 3 Q: So there were rough notes and there 4 was a notebook and your evidence now sir, is that you 5 inadvertently destroyed both of them simultaneously? 6 A: Yes -- 7 Q: I see -- 8 A: -- that's been my evidence from the 9 beginning. 10 Q: It has? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Let's look at some of your 13 earlier evidence, sir. Let's look at Tab 19, please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Tab 19 is Exhibit P-1613 to this 18 proceeding. It's your examination -- your evidence at 19 the trial of Warren George. 20 This was evidently in October of 1997, sir 21 and did you indicate at that time that you still had your 22 rough notes? 23 A: Hmm. 24 Q: If you look at page 117, line 29: 25 "A: I had some rough notes that I had
251 from that evening that I still have in 2 my possession and I reproduced those 3 notes." 4 A: The rough notes that I'm referring to 5 is the -- they weren't actually the notes they were the 6 hard copy that I had typed up for that proceeding and 7 were entered into evidence. 8 Q: You said you had some rough notes? 9 A: Well, those basically are my notes in 10 typewritten form that's -- 11 Q: And they show the three (3) different 12 -- or the two (2) or more assessments with respect to the 13 Glasgow Coma Scale, sir? 14 A: They showed the summary of my 15 assessment of Cecil Bernard George. 16 Q: Which assessment was that? 17 A: Both of them. 18 Q: It just says there's one (1) 19 assessment doesn't it? 20 A: It's my -- no, it's the reflection of 21 the multiple assessments that I did over that timeframe. 22 Q: I see. Now, we could look at Tab 18 23 please which is your interview by an OPP Officer, which 24 is now P-1612. 25
261 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If you would please look at page 4 of 4 the typed interview, the last paragraph you wrote: 5 "I've been keeping notes in EMS 6 notebooks at this time. Sometime after 7 the incident I inadvertently destroyed 8 that notebook with the rest of my old 9 EMS notebooks. We're not required to 10 keep EMS books. I do, however, have my 11 rough patient care notes." 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Did you tell the officers that, sir? 14 A: Yes I did. 15 Q: And that was in 29 June 1997, sir? 16 A: Yes sir. 17 Q: And was that true? 18 A: It's true in that -- in that I had my 19 typewritten copy of my rife -- rough patient notes. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: What I refer to as my notes, that's - 22 - that's my note. 23 Q: Is it? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I see. The typewritten --
271 A: It's not the one I produced at the 2 time. 3 Q: The typewritten copy that we have a 4 copy of? 5 A: That's -- that's the -- the summary. 6 That's my notes from that -- that night. 7 Q: I see. And is that accurate? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: It includes everything you wrote in 10 the rough notes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I see. Now, if you look at page 3 of 13 Tab 18, about six (6) lines down or so you wrote: 14 "I made a note [or you said] I made a 15 note saying no alcohol." 16 Do you see that, sir? 17 A: Correct, yes. 18 Q: And where is that in the typed notes, 19 sir, the "no alcohol"? 20 A: If you look at in my typed notes -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- line 11, it says, "No ETOH". 23 Q: No what? 24 A: ETOH. 25 Q: And what is that for?
281 A: ETOH is the chemical -- the medical/ 2 chemical term for alcohol. 3 Q: And that says -- that says no 4 alcohol? 5 A: Yes, it does. 6 Q: So when you were telling these 7 officers that you kept your rough notes what you meant 8 you say -- 9 A: What I meant was this -- 10 Q: -- is the typed copy -- 11 A: -- this typewritten copy, yes. 12 Q: But then did you tell me a little 13 while ago that the rough notes were destroyed along with 14 the EMS notebook, sir? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Well, how could you -- how could that 17 be correct, sir? And you tell -- 18 A: Well, it's probably bad phrasing on 19 my time or my part. 20 Q: Yes, let's look at the bad phrasing, 21 sir. 22 A: What I should be referring to, sir, 23 is instead of the phrasing I should be referring to my 24 copy, my typewritten copy of my rough notes. 25 Q: Sir, let's look again at page 4 of
291 this document -- 2 A: Sure. 3 Q: -- at page 18 -- at Tab 18 and see 4 if that could possibly be consistent with what you've 5 told us. 6 You told the officers there: 7 "Some time after the incident I 8 inadvertently destroyed that notebook 9 with the rest of my old EMS notebooks. 10 We're not required to keep EMS books. 11 I do, however, have my rough patient 12 care notes." 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Now, I put it to you, sir, that if 15 your rough patient care notes had been inadvertently 16 destroyed along with the EMS notebook as you testified 17 today you could not possibly have told the officers that 18 in June of 1997 with that phrasing, sir? 19 A: No, when I typed this up -- when I 20 typed this up I made reference to those notes. After I 21 typed this up was when I inadvertently destroyed those 22 notebooks with the rest of my EMS notebooks. These are 23 my true copy of what I observed that night. This is my 24 version of the clinical record from that night. 25 Q: Now, we referred briefly to Tab 19,
301 your testimony at the trial of Warren George. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You understood at the time that Mr. 4 George was charged with offences arising out of September 5 6th, 1995? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you understood that he was 8 charged as a result of his driving a car in the direction 9 of the officers? 10 A: Yes, I believe so. 11 Q: And you understood -- and you knew 12 that his defence or part of his defence was that he was 13 trying to stop the officers from beating Cecil Bernard 14 George, right? 15 A: I believe I understood that at the 16 time, yes. 17 Q: Yes, and that's why your -- your 18 evidence about the condition of Cecil Bernard George was 19 relevant at that trial, right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Now, if we could please look at page 22 114 of that transcript. Perhaps I should begin at the 23 bottom of page 113. So again we're at Tab 19 which is P- 24 1613. 25 A: Sorry, I'm --
311 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 19. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: Tab 19. 5 A: Yeah, okay. 6 Q: And the bottom of page 113 of that 7 tab. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Correct. I have it. 12 Q: You're discussing the Glasgow Coma 13 Scale. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you testified they scale has 16 three (3) portions. 17 "1 is the patient's ability to open 18 their eyes either spontaneously or to a 19 stimulus, their verbal response and 20 their motor response." 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: "High point score on the scale is 23 fifteen (15) and I evaluated Mr. George 24 as a thirteen (13) or a fourteen (14)." 25 A: Correct.
321 Q: Now, first, did you give that 2 evidence, sir? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: You never evaluated him as a fourteen 5 (14), did you? 6 A: In my mind I -- I -- when you -- what 7 I did was I took the worst case scenario, so I deducted a 8 point for eye opening because it wasn't consistent and I 9 deducted a point for verbal because it wasn't consistent. 10 But his motor skills were consistent. 11 Q: In your mind you rated him as a 12 fourteen (14), sir? 13 A: No, thirteen (13); that's why I gave 14 him a thirteen (13). 15 Q: But -- but you testified -- 16 A: He had some spontaneous eye opening. 17 Q: Yes, but you testified as a thirteen 18 (13) or a fourteen (14)? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So you improved his condition 21 possibly to a fourteen (14)? 22 A: When I pass him off no. 23 Q: Sorry? 24 A: No, when I give report you give the 25 worst.
331 Q: No, but this was evidence at a 2 criminal trial where you understood the severity of his 3 condition might be at issue, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you made it sound less severe 6 than it really was, right? By any of your calculations, 7 you never calculated a fourteen (14)? 8 A: No, because -- well, come back to a 9 single value unless it's less than nine (9) in the field 10 is not that significant. It's the trending. 11 Q: But I put it to you -- 12 A: So I took -- I took as a start point, 13 because I pick one, I took it as a start point, thirteen 14 (13). 15 Q: Or fourteen (14) you said? 16 A: Well, thirteen (13) is what I 17 eventually reported and thirteen (13) is -- 18 Q: In the course of this trial? 19 A: Sorry? 20 Q: In the course of this trial you 21 reported fourteen (14) -- thirteen (13) or fourteen (14) 22 or did you say thirteen (13)? 23 A: That was -- that was the evidence 24 that was put inter -- or put in on my patient record was 25 a thirteen (13).
341 Q: Your sworn testimony at this trial 2 was thirteen (13) or fourteen (14), right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I put it to you that you said 5 thirteen (13) or fourteen (14) in order to try to 6 minimize the injuries to Cecil Bernard George? 7 A: I disagree. 8 Q: Then why could you possibly have 9 mentioned fourteen (14) then, sir, other than for that 10 purpose? 11 A: Because it's not my intention to -- 12 to -- to go to the trial and minimize his injuries. I 13 reported what I saw. 14 Q: But you never recorded or saw a 15 fourteen (14)? 16 A: I questioned in my mind whether he 17 could have been a fourteen (14). 18 Q: I would put it to you that you 19 questioned in your mind whether it should be a twelve 20 (12)? 21 A: I disagree. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: I've never, never considered him to 24 be a twelve (12). 25 Q: I see. And so when you told us that
351 you thought you deducted a point for motor response, how 2 does that comport with what you just told me, sir? 3 A: I believe that -- I think as -- as 4 I've said here, a thirteen (13) or a fourteen (14), I 5 think that's loose language on my part. 6 Q: Yes, indeed, sir. And it's loose in 7 a direction that helped the police in their prosecution 8 of Warren George, right? 9 A: I disagree. 10 Q: You disagree? 11 A: I disagree. 12 Q: Well, you understood that the more 13 seriously Cecil Bernard George had been injured the 14 better defence Warren George would have had? 15 A: I think the degree of seriousness 16 here had -- would it be if I said he was an eight (8) or 17 a nine (9) versus a thirteen (13). As I've already 18 explained, the difference of one (1) is not considered a 19 significant change on the scale. 20 And that can be inter-operative -- inter- 21 operator variability in even applying the scale. 22 Q: Now, sir, you told us that a -- 23 A: When I made -- 24 Q: Sorry. 25 A: When I made my decision and what I
361 recorded was I basically scored him as a thirteen (13). 2 I thought that was a reasonable point to start this and 3 that's what's in the official record. 4 Q: Yes, but what I was fastening on, 5 sir, was you're informing the trial of Warren -- with 6 Warren George that it might have been a fourteen (14) -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You've 8 already -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm suggesting 10 to you that that was not honest evidence on your part? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've made 12 that suggestion already? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I have -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he has 15 refused it, so, I don't know what else -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I -- I refuse that. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Except do it 18 again and that's not helpful. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no. I just 20 was -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- explaining that 23 to you and I was -- I was ready to move on. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Rosenthal.
371 2 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: Now, you've told us that a difference 4 between a tactical EMS medic and a civilian EMS medic is 5 that basically you're working with the police to support 6 their operation and that's the overriding concern, the 7 operation of the police operation? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Right? 10 A: Right. And the -- 11 Q: And then if it's -- it's unlike 12 regular civilian EMS where the overriding concern is care 13 of the patient? 14 A: Right. And that arises out of the 15 safety concerns surrounding the operation in this -- 16 Q: And then you went on to say: 17 "If there was a bit of a conflict it 18 would be the police concern would 19 override." 20 Right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: So the police concern would override 23 the patient's concern? 24 A: As far as safety with regards to 25 issues like rescue, yes.
381 Q: Yes. And I would suggest to you that 2 that's what you were thinking of when you gave your 3 testimony at the Warren George trial, you were having the 4 police concern rather than the patient concern in mind, 5 sir? 6 A: The concern with making decisions 7 within the tactical context has to do with the safety of 8 the operators. You don't want to produce more casualties 9 by running in too soon or mishandling a patient care 10 situation. Every attempt would be made to balance both 11 out. 12 But, it may not be prudent for example, to 13 rush in immediately to do a patient rescue. And that 14 holds true for civilian EMS as well. Civilian EMS is not 15 allowed to go forward until it's perfectly safe. 16 But, I think to suggest that my testimony 17 that I gave before had to do with improving the police 18 position is an -- based on an error in logic. 19 Q: Now, I took you earlier to your 20 interview with the OPP Officers where you indicated that 21 your notes had said no alcohol with respect -- 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: -- Bernard George. Now, you didn't 24 tell us that directly here did you? You didn't say no 25 alcohol, you said you weren't sure, right? That's the
391 thrust of your evidence here? 2 A: In my mind I was pretty sure that -- 3 I could not detect alcohol. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Although as I believe in my testimony 6 I said that my nose wasn't 100 percent but not alcohol -- 7 not all alcohol is detected by nose. And alcohol is not 8 the only issue that you would be concerned about. 9 Q: But nothing is 100 percent in the 10 real world, right? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And you came to a firm conclusion, at 13 the time you assessed him that there was no alcohol 14 involved in his condition, right? 15 A: As reasonable as I could in the 16 field, yes. 17 Q: As reasonable as you could? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You discounted alcohol and you went 20 on to, as you should investigate other possible causes, 21 right? 22 A: Correct. You sort of move it to the 23 back of your list -- 24 Q: Yes -- 25 A: -- and other things that could
401 attribute for the same symptoms you -- you investigate 2 those or they come to the forefront. 3 Q: On the other hand if we turn to Tab 4 19 again, your testimony at the Warren George trial, we 5 could -- please look beginning at the bottom of page 116 6 of P-1613? 7 A: Correct. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You were asked at about line 24: 12 "So to what did you attribute that? 13 A: Well it could be for a number of 14 things. It could have been because he 15 obviously suffered some sort of trauma 16 to his head. Could have been if he was 17 a diabetic or under the influence of 18 some intoxicant either a drug or 19 alcohol. 20 Q: Did you do any check or assessment 21 resulting in to the effects of alcohol 22 consumption? 23 A: Well I had a cold that night so 24 that my sniffer was not working 25 properly. So I wasn't able to confirm
411 or deny that but that was a 2 consideration and it really didn't 3 change my treatment. It wouldn't 4 change my treatment." 5 So would you agree, sir that you didn't 6 indicate to the Warren George trial what you just told me 7 a few minutes ago that you came to the rather firm 8 conclusion, not 100 percent, but the rather firm 9 conclusion that no alcohol was involved? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And again you recognized did you not, 12 sir, that if alcohol had been the cause or part of the 13 cause of Cecil Bernard George's impairment that would 14 have weakened Warren George's defence at that trial? 15 A: No my discussion of alcohol here, has 16 to do entirely with the patient consideration and the 17 evaluation of his altered mental state. 18 Q: Now, you did conclude that likely 19 Cecil Bernard George had an active bleed in his head; 20 this one says, right? 21 A: That would have been one (1) 22 possibility to explain the symptoms, yes. 23 Q: And that was the most likely 24 possibility? 25 A: Well, he had suffered trauma so, yes.
421 Q: Yes. 2 A: But people present with pre-existing 3 states so. 4 Q: Yes, but the most likely cause of his 5 reduced level of consciousness as you determined it -- of 6 course you didn't do very extensive tests, but the most 7 likely cause would have been some bleed in his head, 8 right? 9 A: I did full field assessment. 10 Q: Yes, and concluded that the most 11 likely cause was the bleed in the head? 12 A: In my opinion that would be the most 13 dangerous consideration. 14 Q: The most dangerous and the most 15 likely simultaneously? 16 A: Yeah, given the circumstances. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: We would go with that. That would 19 probably be number 1, yes. 20 Q: Yes. And depending upon how that 21 bleed progressed it could or could not be life- 22 threatening? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: It could -- it could be anything from 25 a mild concussion to something that might lead to
431 permanent brain damage or death, right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And that would be very difficult for 4 you to determine on site with the techniques and 5 equipment at your disposal? 6 A: Right. That's something that -- that 7 is determined by time and whether the patient's condition 8 changes. 9 Q: Now, in general when you're 10 assessing a patient it's useful if possible to know how 11 the patient came to be in that condition, in other words 12 the scenario surrounding his being brought to you, right? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Now, did you ask the -- the ERT 15 member who told you -- came -- said, Come look at this 16 prisoner what had happened? 17 A: I don't remember specifically whether 18 I asked him or whether the information was volunteered 19 but my understanding is that Mr. George had been involved 20 in an altercation with the CMU. 21 Q: And did you reach the understanding 22 that a substantial number of officers, we don't know the 23 number, apparently struck Mr. George with a baton and/or 24 kicked him with boots? 25 A: As far as the number of officers I
441 formed no -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- no assumptions about that. 4 Q: Did -- 5 A: It could be one (1)... 6 Q: Did you -- did you get the 7 understanding that he had been struck by batons and 8 kicked? 9 A: I had the understanding that he had 10 been in an altercation which to me meant that he could 11 have been struck by a baton, he could have injured 12 himself falling down, he could have fallen into 13 something. 14 There was debris being thrown. He could 15 have been struck inadvertently by -- by debris that was 16 being thrown at the officers. He could have been -- 17 after he fell on the ground he could have been stepped on 18 and he could have been kicked; he was in a fight 19 basically. So those were all possibilities. 20 Q: Now, when you made your assessment on 21 that evening, did you communicate that assessment in some 22 form to the hospital either through the ambulance drivers 23 or in some other form? 24 A: Through the attendant that I handed 25 the care of the patient over to, yes.
451 Q: That would have been the St. John's 2 Ambulance attendant? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You recognize now do you that it 5 would have been certainly preferable to send Mr. Cecil 6 Bernard George to hospital in a Ministry ambulance rather 7 than the St. John's Ambulance? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And in fact evidently there was a 10 policy against using St. John's ambulances for that kind 11 of purpose at the time; is that correct? 12 A: I understand that now, yes. 13 Q: And you didn't understand it at the 14 time? 15 A: Well, that policy was not 16 communicated to me that evening. 17 Q: And you had no awareness of it that 18 evening? 19 A: No. My understanding that evening 20 was, through dealings that I'd had with St. John's 21 through Base Hospital that under certain conditions they 22 could transport patients. 23 Q: And what is your understanding now? 24 Can they transport patients under certain conditions or-- 25 A: My understanding now is I really
461 don't care whether they can transport patients or not, I 2 wouldn't use them. 3 Q: But what about the provincial 4 policies? 5 A: I still haven't read their -- their 6 policy. 7 Q: Still haven't read the policy? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Well, if we could turn to Tab 23 10 please, which is P-1614. 11 A: Twenty-three (23)... 12 Q: Tab 23. And if you could turn to 13 pages 9 and 10 -- at pages 9 and 10 with the numbers at 14 the bottom; there are also larger numbers at the top. 15 And this document, of course, is an interview done in 16 anticipation of a possible Inquest by the Coroner's 17 Office? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And it was done on March 11, 2003. 20 Towards the very bottom of page 9 you're asked by the 21 interviewer: 22 "Are you familiar with the provincial 23 policy regarding the transportation of 24 patients by St. John's Ambulance that 25 that tends to be left with provincial
471 ambulances rather than St. John's?" 2 And you answer: 3 "Actually, now that you mention it, 4 yes." 5 A: Yes. And what I'm referring to there 6 is I am aware that St. John is not to transport patients. 7 They don't do that any more. That's my understanding. 8 Q: So your understanding of the policy 9 is that St. John's Ambulances never to transport patients 10 under any circumstances? 11 A: Well, if there's a physician on the 12 scene and they take responsibility and go with them I 13 think they can -- they can still transport. But it would 14 have to be, basically, life and death -- 15 Q: So your understanding of the policy-- 16 A: -- type situation and there would 17 have to be another provider with them. 18 Q: So it -- 19 A: But I -- actually I have never read - 20 - I haven't read the policy. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: And that would be today. I mean, if 23 I was presented with the situation today where I had a 24 critically ill patient that I needed to move now and that 25 vehicle was sitting in the parking lot I might still use
481 that vehicle but I would go with that patient; that would 2 be the difference. 3 Q: Right. You were -- you still assist 4 TRU in these operations, sir? 5 A: Yes, I do. 6 Q: And even given the events of 7 September 1995 and given your interview in 2003 about the 8 policy with respect to transporting by St. John's 9 Ambulances you haven't read the policy? 10 A: No, because my -- my preference is -- 11 or not my preference -- I would not send a patient with 12 St. John. 13 Q: Well, sir, if there were no other 14 means of transport and it was a dire need to get someone 15 to hospital I presume -- 16 A: I would use the vehicle. 17 Q: -- you could use any vehicle; isn't 18 that fair? 19 A: Exactly. I could. 20 Q: But you can't tell us -- 21 A: But if I had a choice between the van 22 and a St. John vehicle that I believed was fully equipped 23 then I would use that vehicle; that would be prudent; 24 that would be the safest way to transfer that patient. 25 I have extra resources. I have equipment
491 there that I don't normally -- I don't have in the field. 2 Q: Now, sir, you were aware that there 3 were two (2) Ministry ambulances in the area at the time 4 that Cecil Bernard George was directed by you into the 5 St. John's Ambulance, correct? 6 A: Those vehicles were already committed 7 to the main gate. 8 Q: They were already committed? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: I see. Well, if you look at the same 11 page that we were on, page 10 of this interview in 2003, 12 you were asked two-thirds (2/3's) of the way down: 13 "Are you aware of any provincial 14 ambulances that were in the area at the 15 time?" 16 And you said: 17 "There were two (2) on site at that 18 point." 19 A: Right. 20 Q: You didn't say they were committed 21 then, did you? 22 A: No, but they were. 23 Q: They were. Where were they committed 24 by at that point? 25 A: They were committed at that point to
501 the call to the main gate for two (2) patients. They had 2 left the Ministry parking lot. 3 Q: By the time you considered where to 4 transport Cecil Bernard George -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- and how to transport him -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- they had left is your evidence? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, at that point were you not 11 concerned that there might have been police officers who 12 required transportation to hospital by ambulance? 13 A: That's correct. Well, we still 14 hadn't heard. I hadn't seen everybody come back from the 15 -- from the CMU. 16 Q: Yes. And so I put it to you, sir, 17 that -- and I ask you to take your mind back, that 18 perhaps the reason that you didn't send Cecil Bernard 19 George in one of the Ministry ambulances was because you 20 wanted to save them for possible police officers who 21 might have been hurt? 22 A: That's incorrect. 23 Q: I see. Now, you refused to be 24 interviewed by the Special Investigations Unit with 25 respect to this incident, is --
511 A: Yes, sir, I did. Yes. 2 Q: -- that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you understood that the Special 5 Investigations Unit was investigating the beating of 6 Cecil Bernard George, right? 7 A: When I was asked to be interviewed my 8 understanding was that it was dealing with the shooting 9 of Dudley George. 10 Q: I see. And you didn't know that 11 there was an investigation into the beating of Cecil 12 Bernard George, sir? 13 A: Not specifically, no. 14 Q: Did you ever learn that? 15 A: Well, eventually because I was 16 approached and asked to give testimony in that regard. 17 Q: At the Warren George trial you mean, 18 or at this Inquiry? 19 A: No, at the Warren George trial. 20 Q: The Warren George trial? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: So did you make it clear to the SIU 23 that you would be interviewed with respect to Cecil 24 Bernard George? 25 A: I was advised not to give interview
521 to SIU by my counsel. 2 Q: I see. Now, sir you did know, 3 certainly by the time of the Warren George trial, that 4 there was an investigation into the possibility of 5 criminal charges against officers with respect to the 6 beating of Cecil Bernard George, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you were the first health care 9 provider that he came in contact with on that evening, 10 right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you've come to this Inquiry and 13 you've recommended that there be more health care 14 providers in your situation -- that this Commission 15 should recommend there be such persons, right? 16 A: Yes sir. 17 Q: And don't you see a problem with 18 there being health care providers whose relationship to 19 the police is such, that they refuse to be interviewed by 20 the SIU in an investigation into a beating of their 21 patient? 22 A: I can understand how some people 23 might take that view but, the view of my counsel is that 24 I should not give a generic interview. And if I had been 25 provided with specific questions which was what was
531 suggested to SIU that I would be happy to answer those 2 questions. 3 So I didn't actually deny participating 4 with SIU, I denied giving a non-directed interview. And 5 I believe since then when I've been asked to provide 6 testimony or information that I have been forthcoming. 7 Q: If you look at Tab 25 please of your 8 documents. This is P-1615 and there doesn't appear to be 9 a date on the excerpt that we have but, I believe that 10 the date that's assigned is December 28th, 1997. It's 11 Inquiry Document 105184. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And it reports as you've told us, at 16 the end of the first paragraph: 17 "After discussions with his lawyer 18 Norman Peel and further phone calls Mr. 19 Slomer advised he would not provide an 20 interview as he was not compelled to do 21 so." 22 Do you see that, sir? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And your lawyer was Norman Peel? 25 A: That's correct.
541 Q: And there's no indication that you 2 volunteered to answer written questions but, are you 3 telling us you did? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this is -- 6 A: And it's not reflected in this 7 document and I take issue with that. 8 Q: And this is -- if this is -- do you 9 take issue with it being December of 1997? 10 A: No, that's corr -- I think, I believe 11 that's correct, 1996. 12 Q: 1997 (sic), yes. So after the Warren 13 -- after your testimony at the Warren George trial? 14 A: I don't remember the exact date of 15 the Warren George trial, so. 16 Q: That was evidently October 3rd, 1997. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: So by -- 19 A: So I'm out on -- with timeline here. 20 Q: So by this time you understood there 21 was a serious investigation into the possibility of 22 criminal charges against police officers with respect to 23 the beating of Cecil Bernard George? 24 A: My understanding for the SIU 25 interview was that it dealt with issues around Ken Deane.
551 I wasn't aware -- I can't really say for sure whether I 2 was aware or not that -- that -- of other -- the charges 3 that we're talking about. 4 Q: Well, I -- the transcript will show 5 it, sir, but I believe you told me ten (10) -- fifteen 6 (15) minutes ago that you became aware of that at the 7 time -- certainly by the time of the trial of Warren 8 George? 9 A: Well, I'm not sure of the -- in the 10 interim there were changes between people who became 11 witness officers versus subject officers so I'm not sure 12 in the timeframe in there but at some point I became 13 aware. 14 It's possible that I became aware of it 15 before. I don't have a recollection of that, but to use 16 that to make a point that I biassed my testimony to 17 support one (1) way or the other would be incorrect. 18 Q: Now ,you have explained your refusal 19 to be interviewed by SIU but you were quite content to be 20 interviewed by the Ontario Provincial Police; is that 21 correct? 22 A: By the Coroner's Office, yes, and -- 23 and police, yes. 24 Q: And the police? 25 A: Yeah.
561 Q: And in fact, you were interviewed by 2 the police in June of 1997 some six (6) months prior to 3 you refusing to be interviewed by the SIU, right? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Now, you've told us that your 6 participation on September 6th, 1995, was as a volunteer? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And you didn't get paid for your 9 participation? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And you -- had you volunteered in 12 similar circumstances before? 13 A: Yes, I had. 14 Q: How does one start becoming a 15 voluntary associate of the TRU Team? 16 A: One has a long-time acquaintance 17 that's actually on the TRU Team. It was, at that time 18 Constable Lacroix. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: And we just -- over the years our 21 paths had crossed and separated and crossed again. And he 22 had moved from London ahead of me -- or from Kingston, 23 sorry, ahead of me and ended up in London and a couple of 24 years later I ended up in London not realizing he was 25 there. He recognized me and we got into conversation,
571 sort of catching up on what we'd each been up to, and he 2 suggested that maybe I would be interested in coming out 3 and offering the team some advice on -- on first aid 4 issues. 5 Q: So Wade Lacroix has been a witness at 6 these proceeding as you might know. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And we understand that at the time he 9 was not a member of the TRU Team, at the time, September 10 1995 but in fact was the person who led the Crowd 11 Management Unit -- 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: But he had earlier been a member of 14 the TRU Team and he's the one who introduced you to that 15 volunteer work? 16 A: Yes, when he was a constable on that 17 team. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: And then later as -- when he became 20 Team Leader I was still associated with the team. 21 Q: And then -- we understand that one 22 (1) or two (2) days after September 6, 1995, you were 23 sworn in by the OPP? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: I don't quite understand. You were
581 sworn in as what? 2 A: An auxiliary constable. 3 Q: An auxiliary constable? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this was a very special ceremony 6 that took place just for you, right? 7 A: Yes, that's my understanding, that it 8 was quite unique. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: It's not the usual procedure. 11 Q: Generally auxiliary constables and 12 ordinary constables are sworn in in large -- large groups 13 at a time? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And so why was this -- this special 18 swearing in of you two (2) days after September 6th? 19 A: Well, the issue that prompted all 20 this actually came out of training in my previous service 21 and that was that as a volunteer if I were to be injured 22 on a call in some manner that I was not even covered by 23 WSIB. 24 And then the issue became, because the 25 auxiliary program was full, or it was decided that that
591 would be the easiest way to bring me on through the 2 auxiliary program and the -- then it was a question of 3 waiting for a spot to open up in one of the local 4 auxiliary units. 5 At that time then Staff Sergeant Lacroix 6 happened to be the Detachment Commander in Petrolia and 7 he was aware of a position that came up and this ongoing 8 issue with myself -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think all 10 this came out. I think all this came out in Ms. Vella's 11 questioning, if I'm not mistaken? Did it not? Am I -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't believe -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I remember 14 hearing a lot of this before, Miss Vella -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, I have a 16 specific question. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 18 going over it just to bring it -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm reluctant to 20 cut the witness off, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am too, 22 but when he goes on and on -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But -- Yes. No, 24 well, I -- I'm happy, yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Forgive me,
601 but I think some of this has already been heard. 2 THE WITNESS: I'll keep it short. The 3 most expedient way to get me covered in case I was 4 injured was under WSIB. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Yes, now, I -- 8 A: I had done the auxiliary training. A 9 spot was open. This was September and the auxiliary 10 program hadn't geared up. I would have expected that I 11 would have been sworn in at the first opportunity in 12 September but this call came up ahead of time. 13 When I raised this issue with my team 14 leader, Staff Sergeant Skinner, he raised it with the 15 Chief and they decided there was no reason to wait; that 16 it would be in everyone's best interest if I was sworn in 17 there. 18 Q: Sir, is it not correct that one of 19 the considerations that suggested urgency in your being 20 sworn in was so that you would have similar rights to 21 police officers with respect to, for example, the Special 22 Investigation Unit? 23 A: That wasn't -- I was never privy to 24 any conversations regarding that and that is certainly 25 not my understanding.
611 Q: Now, you have in your possession 2 you've told us, I believe, one of the pins that was made 3 in support of Ken Deane; is that correct? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: And you still have that? 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: And you have worn it from time to 8 time? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: In gatherings of police officers, 11 particularly, I would guess? 12 A: Ken Deane's memorial. Ken Deane's 13 funeral. Some team functions, yes. 14 Q: Some, sorry? 15 A: Some team functions. 16 Q: Team functions; meaning TRU Team 17 functions? 18 A: TRU team functions, yes. 19 Q: So social gatherings -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- of TRU team members? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And most or all of the people at 24 those gatherings were wearing the same pin, right? 25 A: I don't recollect. Very often when
621 we get together we have a lapel pin that's the straight 2 TRU symbol. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Some people wear that. I don't have 5 a specific recollection of anybody else wearing the pin 6 with Ken's badge number. 7 Q: And you've told us that this pin was 8 to show support for Ken Deane, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it was distributed after his 11 conviction at trial but before his appeal was heard, 12 right? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: We understand there was also -- there 15 were also T-shirts produced, perhaps at around the same 16 time, that said, "I support Ken Deane" or words to that 17 effect; have you seen such T-shirts? 18 A: I've not seen any of those. 19 Q: You never saw such a T-shirt? 20 A: No. 21 Q: But you did tell us you saw another 22 T-shirt that we've seen at this inquiry, a black T-shirt 23 that has a TRU symbol and an anvil and a broken arrow in 24 between? 25 A: That's correct. I have seen that.
631 Q: And you've seen that T-shirt at some 2 of these gatherings of TRU Team members? 3 A: Never. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: I've never -- I don't actually 6 remember where I saw it. I've never seen it worn, no. 7 Q: Never saw it worn? 8 A: Never saw it worn. 9 Q: So you saw it -- somebody holding it 10 or displaying it? 11 A: Possibly, yes. 12 Q: Did you see it -- 13 A: I was -- 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: I'm -- no, just I'm familiar with the 16 logo, so. 17 Q: Yes. Did you see it displayed in the 18 Forrest Detachment of the OPP? 19 A: Well, I've never seen it -- I don't 20 believe so, no. 21 Q: You've seen it somewhere? 22 A: I've seen it somewhere, yeah. I -- 23 Q: And not on a human being? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Well, did you perhaps see it being
641 offered for sale; somebody showing it to people? 2 A: That's speculation, but... 3 Q: Now, do you agree that the obvious 4 interpretation of that logo is that between them, between 5 TRU and ERT, they broke the First Nations people? 6 A: I disagree. 7 Q: Sorry? 8 A: I disagree. That's some people's 9 interpretations. I've heard that interpretation out of 10 this Inquiry but I don't agree with that. 11 Q: You don't agree with that 12 interpretation, but do you agree it's the obvious 13 interpretation? 14 A: I disagree that it's an obvious 15 interpretation. It's -- 16 Q: I see -- 17 A: -- like artwork, it's whatever you 18 read into it. 19 Q: And what is your interpretation, sir? 20 A: My interpretation of the -- 21 personally I don't think that much thought went into it. 22 Q: What is your interpretation of the 23 meaning of -- 24 A: My interpretation is that -- is that 25 each of the three (3) elements were chosen by someone to
651 represent the three (3) groups of individuals that were 2 there that night. 3 Q: Yes. There's no doubt that the TRU 4 symbol represents the TRU team, right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: There's no doubt that the anvil with 7 ERT on it, represents the ERT team or the CMU -- 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: -- right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And there's no doubt that the arrow 12 represents the First Nations people, right? 13 A: Yes I think that would be a fair -- 14 that's my interpretation that that's probably how it's 15 represented. 16 Q: But then does it now show the two (2) 17 police units breaking the First Nations people, is that 18 not what the broken arrow means, sir? 19 A: I -- personally I don't know what the 20 broken arrow means. Broken arrow to me, up until this 21 became an issue at this Inquiry, the term broken arrow 22 has an entirely different meaning to me. 23 Q: I see. And what's that? 24 A: It means two (2) things to me. It's 25 a code word, it's a military code word. The first is, if
661 it's used in a Air Force context it means the American 2 Air Force has lost a nuclear weapon. 3 Q: I see. 4 A: And the second is an American ground 5 unit will use the term, 'broken arrow', in reference to 6 the fact that they are in heavy contact with the enemy 7 and about to overrun, they want all available resources 8 and fire power directed to their position. 9 Q: Now, when you saw the broken arrow on 10 this logo, you didn't think either of those were the 11 meaning intended, did you? 12 A: No I -- personally, I looked at it, I 13 didn't give it much thought. I hadn't given it much 14 thought until it became an issue here. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 16 how much more of this is useful. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm planning to 18 move on. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He didn't 20 buy it. He doesn't know what it means. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Now, sir you've recommended that
671 there be increased funding to allow full time medics to 2 accompany TRU teams. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Earlier in my examination you 5 indicated you understood why there might be some concerns 6 with respect to what I had emphasized as an aspect of 7 your supporting the police. 8 Now could not the medical situation be 9 handled by having ordinary ambulances and ordinary 10 paramedics available in sufficient numbers, at situations 11 such as happened on September 6th, 1995 when it was 12 anticipated there might be serious injuries or death? 13 A: No, I don't think that's the best way 14 to go. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I think the training costs for such a 17 program would be prohibitive. 18 Q: Now, at the -- you examined Cecil 19 Bernard George near the TOC? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And at the TOC there was a St. John's 22 Ambulance for example? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And there had been some Ministry 25 ambulances?
681 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there could have been ten (10) 3 Ministry ambulances? 4 A: No there was only two (2). 5 Q: I say there could -- 6 A: Two (2) at a time. 7 Q: There was -- there's no limit to the 8 number that could have been if it was anticipated they 9 were needed, right? 10 A: Right. Some one decided that two (2) 11 were what we would put on site, so. 12 Q: And a civilian paramedic could have, 13 if that person was in the TOC, done the examination of 14 Cecil Bernard George that night? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And if you hadn't been there, 17 undoubtedly can we not conclude that the officers would 18 have -- and if there had been an ambulance sitting there, 19 the officers would have gone to the paramedic sitting in 20 the ambulance and asked that person to evaluate Cecil 21 Bernard George? 22 A: I think they might have gone 23 directly, they might have still come to me. 24 Q: What if I say if you hadn't been 25 there --
691 A: I would have certainly gone -- sorry? 2 Q: If you hadn't been there they 3 wouldn't have come to you? 4 A: No, they would have gone to whatever 5 medical resource they saw in the parking lot. 6 Q: Yes. Now you also recommended an 7 increased ability to communicate with ambulance 8 personnel. I can't imagine people disagree with that 9 especially given what happened on September 6th, 1995. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: But, then your third recommendation 12 was that there be an examination of the roles of 13 psychological debriefing for officers in such 14 circumstances. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, we understand that there was 17 some psychological debriefing? 18 A: There was some direct peer support 19 which was available the next morning or afternoon; that's 20 only part of the process. It doesn't address some of the 21 issues as far as full psychological benefit from a 22 debriefing process. 23 Q: Well, we understand that there was a 24 Force psychologist, I forget his name, who met with a 25 number of the officers in the aftermath of September 6th.
701 Were you aware of that? 2 A: That's correct but a one-on-one 3 session is not the same as a formal debriefing process. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: Psychological debriefing process. 6 Q: It's your understanding that which 7 occurred, the one-on-1 or a formal? 8 A: One-on-one. There's never been a 9 full psychological debriefing, that I'm aware of, of any 10 of the participants of Ipperwash. 11 Q: And what -- what would a full 12 psychological debriefing consist of roughly? Do they 13 just -- 14 A: Basically it's a -- it's not an 15 operational debriefing; that's stressed on from the 16 beginning. It's a seven (7) step process that basically 17 goes around the participants and they get to describe 18 their feelings. There's a bit of an exchange of 19 information which is where some of the conflict with the 20 process comes in. But I -- and then -- 21 Q: And your understanding is that did 22 not occur? 23 A: No, it did not occur. 24 Q: How do you -- do you know? 25 A: Not to my knowledge. Well, because I
711 feel that I would have been invited if it had been 2 occurred and I've never got an invite. 3 Q: Did you participate in any of the 4 psychological debriefings that did occur? 5 A: No. I felt the priority at that time 6 was to -- to the people that had been more intensely 7 involved in the operation. 8 Q: Were you aware of some persons being 9 taken into custody that night who were then within a day 10 or so released and were never charged with any offences? 11 I'm thinking in particular of the brother 12 and sister of Dudley George who drove him to hospital. 13 A: Yes, I eventually became -- of that. 14 I'm not sure when but... 15 Q: And I'm thinking also of a Marcia and 16 Melva Simon who tried to -- I'm sorry, Melva George and 17 Marcia Simon who tried to contact an ambulance? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You heard about that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Does the OPP offer any kind of 22 psychological or other assistance to such persons? 23 A: I believe there is a resource. 24 Q: I'm sorry? 25 A: I believe there is a resource. I'm
721 not sure whether it was in place then but there's a -- 2 there is a psychological support -- if it's not through 3 the OPP it's through Community Resources. 4 Q: And what is it called? 5 A: I'm not aware of it. I just know 6 that in my capacity as an emergency nurse we have had 7 non-uniform -- I'm not even sure they're officers but 8 come forward to assist victims and... 9 Q: Would you -- would that have been 10 within your concerns on that evening, the psychological 11 trauma that person might suffer if shotguns were pointed 12 at her for example and -- and you as a healthcare 13 professional -- 14 A: As a healthcare professional I can 15 certainly understand why that would be a -- a concern. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: But this wasn't within my scope of 18 the tasks that I was assigned that evening. 19 Q: I see. And then when you, in the 20 ensuing days, found out about those incidents that I just 21 described to you, the brother and sister who had driven 22 Dudley George to hospital and Melva George and Marcia 23 Simon, did you make any recommendations that they be 24 offered any assistance? 25 A: No, my understanding, because again
731 that's not my -- my scope. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: My understanding would be and I would 4 hope that either the officers that had had an involvement 5 would offer that up or healthcare providers that they 6 dealt with would offer that up. 7 Q: On the other hand if you thought that 8 a police officer had suffered psychological trauma that 9 evening it would have been within your -- the scope of 10 what you regarded as your duties to recommend that he or 11 she be given assistance? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Mr. Rosenthal. 17 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 18 THE WITNESS: Can I just make one (1) 19 comment? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A comment? 21 THE WITNESS: Quickly, yeah, just on this 22 last -- last question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean a 24 part of an answer to the last question? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Want me to come
741 back to the microphone? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 3 should. 4 THE WITNESS: I would just say that one 5 of the reasons in -- if I had had -- if I had dealt with 6 those civilians then that would be different -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 8 THE WITNESS: -- but I didn't come in 9 contact with any of them. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 11 made that point when he was giving his evidence. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 17 Scullion...? 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner. I always have difficulty with this mic. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're too 21 tall, that's the problem. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 24 Q: Good morning, Mr. Slomer. 25 A: Good morning.
751 Q: My name's Kevin Scullion, I'm one of 2 counsel for the residents of Aazhoodena. You might know 3 them better as the Stoney Point Group. I've been 4 listening to your testimony and your cross-examination 5 and the answers to the questions posed by Mr. Rosenthal 6 and it sounds like you're fairly well versed in what 7 occurred that evening. 8 Do I take it you've had a chance to 9 discuss the events of that evening with your fellow 10 officers and others? 11 A: I have not been privy to any group 12 discussion or even one-on-one that I would consider an in 13 depth discussion of events of that evening. And that's - 14 - I can say that for the eleven (11) years since it's 15 happened. 16 Occasionally, something might come up 17 about -- because it's sort of a reference point for -- 18 for example, equipment that we don't have. So it would 19 come up and there might be a discussion around that. For 20 example, if we had of had a -- the CMU had had a video 21 camera that was night vision equipped, that would have 22 been an asset; that's still not in the inventory. 23 If we had communications where we could 24 talk directly to EMS or had an EMS person that was 25 dedicated on site to the command post, that would be an
761 asset. So those types of operational issues. 2 The actual details of who saw what, did 3 what, in my own mind I'm still not 100 percent sure who 4 fired shots on my team that night. 5 Q: Right. Well, I'm not getting in 6 that. I'm just interested -- 7 A: No, I'm just -- 8 Q: -- if you had discussions -- 9 A: -- using that as -- as a discussion 10 of the level of detail. 11 Q: Okay. But to summarize, you've had 12 discussions regarding the evening and ways that the 13 response and what occurred could have been improved if 14 you had various pieces of equipment or other things at 15 your disposal; is that fair? 16 A: Yeah. That's an ongoing thing. 17 We're always doing that with TRU. I mean, you always 18 want to improve or you look back on things and what you 19 could -- what you could do better or anticipating what 20 you might need in the -- in the future, which is always 21 difficult. 22 Q: All right. And I take it, you 23 testified you were a volunteer that night, you weren't an 24 officer; correct? 25 A: That's correct.
771 Q: And as a volunteer you were unpaid 2 and you had to bring your own equipment, from what I 3 understand, from Victoria Hospital? 4 A: Well, I had borrowed some additional 5 equipment from Victoria Hospital but it was mine. 6 Q: All right. So as a -- 7 A: The bulk of the equipment was mine, 8 yes. 9 Q: What do you mean it was yours from 10 the hospital? What does borrowed equipment mean? 11 A: No, no. No, no. I borrowed some 12 additional equipment. I borrowed some extra IV solution 13 and some tubing and some cannulas to start IVs. I had, 14 basically, a basic supply, enough to, sort of, start an 15 IV and get it going. But if someone needed substantial 16 fluid, I didn't -- I didn't have that. 17 I knew I was going to need more. 18 Q: Right. So that's -- 19 A: So I had requested that. 20 Q: That's something the hospital knew 21 you were taking and that you were involved in this 22 operation at Ipperwash. 23 A: Well, I requested it from -- from the 24 head nurse in the emergency department and she offered it 25 up. And at the end of the two (2) weeks it went back
781 because she was accountable for it. 2 Q: All right. And just so I'm clear, 3 you'd mentioned in your testimony that you'd been at The 4 Pinery with the TRU members? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: How long were you stationed at The 7 Pinery before this incident occurred September 6th? Were 8 you there for a day or two (2) days? 9 A: My understanding was that it was a 10 very short time. I don't have a recollection of actually 11 sleeping at The Pinery. I have no recollection of 12 actually sleeping at The Pinery. 13 Q: All right. So at least the day of 14 the 6th. You don't recall if you slept over and were 15 there on the 5th as well? 16 A: On the night of the 5th, no. I 17 believe that I was paged out or activated on the morning 18 of the 6th -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- when I linked up with Officer 21 Zupancic. 22 Q: The issue I'm having trouble with is 23 the concept of your independence from the officers 24 themselves. 25 A: Right.
791 Q: You appreciate that that can be 2 viewed as a bit of a question mark when you're spending 3 the whole day with the TRU squad and you've spent a 4 number of missions -- or done a number of missions 5 previously with them -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- you appreciate that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Do I take it, when you 10 open the back of that van and saw the injured person on 11 the floor of the van, at that point in time you were 12 independent of any police or any police directions or 13 otherwise, your job was to take care of that individual? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: All right. And I take it from your 16 evidence that you did your assessment and then fifteen 17 (15) minutes later you did another assessment and he 18 seemed to improve? 19 A: Well, I actually did the two (2) 20 assessments, sort of, what I believed to be about a 21 fifteen (15) time interval, so. It would take about two 22 (2) minutes to do a proper assessment. 23 Q: Right. Two (2) minutes at the start 24 of the fifteen (15), two (2) minutes at the end? 25 A: Right.
801 Q: So it was between fifteen (15) and 2 twenty (20) minutes that you had an ability to -- 3 A: Correct -- 4 Q: -- make observations and do your 5 testing? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: All right. Now, you testified that 8 at the end of that fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minute 9 period, you determined that there is a good chance of a 10 head injury and he needed immediate transport? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Why wouldn't that be an 13 assessment as soon as you opened the back and did your 14 first two (2) minute assessment of this injured person 15 lying on the vehicle floor? 16 A: Well, actually it was almost an 17 immediate assessment, that became apparent that this 18 individual held an altered mental state -- what we call 19 an altered mental state. 20 Q: All right. Do I take it -- 21 A: However -- 22 Q: -- from your evidence there's more? 23 A: You don't want to get sidetracked -- 24 medically you don't want to get sidetracked by one (1) 25 injury. You want to know whether there's something --
811 different things will cause that state. You want to know 2 immediately whether there's something that you can 3 correct immediately so that -- correct that abnormality. 4 Q: Right. You do what's called a 5 differential diagnosis, right? You take a look at what 6 the options are and you slowly weed them out? 7 A: Right. Hopefully you start with the 8 big picture of what -- all the things that could cause 9 this and you sort of narrow it down, yes. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: Best as you can. 12 Q: Right. And what you can't take out 13 of the picture becomes a possibility, correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Head injury was, at all times, a 16 possibility? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Head injury -- 19 A: Because your -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Head injury may require intervention 23 which can only be done at a hospital? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Right. You couldn't have done that
821 at the back of a van or anywhere in the TOC parking lot? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. So while you're weeding 4 out these other options, that particular option, which 5 does have a bit of a time limit on it, is always there, 6 correct? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Do I take it that if this was a 9 member of the TRU team or the ERT team or a uniformed 10 member of the OPP in the same position, absent the 11 shackles, with the same injuries, he would have received 12 the same treatment from you that night? 13 A: Exactly the same. 14 Q: So he would have -- 15 A: And the same mode of transport. 16 Q: He would have waited there for 17 fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes in the same condition 18 with a possible head injury and not been transported 19 anywhere? 20 A: Correct. Now there's a reason for 21 that. 22 Q: Well, what is the reason? 23 A: The reason is you need to do a 24 thorough assessment, which I did. And the other was just 25 the problem of arranging transport. If there had been a
831 Ministry vehicle there, that would have been easy to do 2 because that would have been the first choice. 3 There was a hesitation on my part with 4 sending this fellow with St. John, partly because they 5 were a bit of an unknown, but they accepted the task. 6 And then the -- it takes a little longer to do the 7 assessment on somebody that's handcuffed. But it would 8 probably work out to be about even because you have to 9 fight with body armour and equipment on a tactical 10 officer, so. 11 Q: Sorry. Did you have body armour on? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. So you had the bullet 14 proof vest. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What other -- 17 A: Bullet resistant. 18 Q: Bullet resistant. Well we won't get 19 into that but, there was a vest, you had a vest -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- for protection? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And you had everything, 24 including stripes, but medic all over your arms and back, 25 correct?
841 A: Just the front and the back of the 2 vest, and an EMS patch on one (1) sleeve, yeah. 3 Q: All right. But you're telling me now 4 that the concept of transport became an immediate concern 5 for you, and the difficulties in arranging it? 6 A: Well trans -- we realized this 7 gentleman had an altered mental state, you realize that 8 transport becomes fairly rapid. Basically, you don't -- 9 you don't want him there for a long period of time. 10 Q: He needed help and he needed to get 11 to a hospital -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- for further assessment. 14 A: Right. But there's not an immediate 15 threat to his life. 16 Q: I appreciate that. A head injury is 17 -- it takes some time. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Right. But, do I take it there was 20 no effort to arrange for transportation until the fifteen 21 (15) to twenty (20) minutes had passed and you'd done 22 your second set of evacuations? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: All right. So in that time period 25 you'd agree with me that the issue of arranging
851 transportation wasn't an issue at all for you? 2 A: Well, it was an issue in that I'd 3 already identified it, that I was -- I was going to 4 transport, that this gentleman was going to need 5 transport. I hadn't got as far as thinking exactly how 6 I'm going to do it. 7 Normally, when -- when I -- when you go on 8 a call we've never transported somebody from the scene 9 before on a TRU call. 10 Q: No, I appreciate that, but it was an 11 issue -- 12 A: Yeah. Normally, on a call it's not 13 an issue. If I'm part of an EMS crew I'm transporting. 14 I'm -- the vehicle's right there. I know it's there. 15 Q: Right. But nothing was done to look 16 into arranging for transport until after this fifteen 17 (15) to twenty (20) minute window? 18 A: No. And the other part of that is 19 the most appropriate transport. 20 Q: Are you saying that you looked into 21 whether or not you had EMS transport? 22 A: No. I wanted -- because of the 23 safety concerns, partly because of the patient condition, 24 because I'd identified a condition with his altered 25 mental state that if he deteriorated I was not going to
861 be able to offer him much assistance, if any, in the 2 field for that. 3 Q: Well, sure, part of your testimony 4 was that you propped him up in the van and you were 5 nervous that he might forget he was sitting up? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Don't you remember giving that 8 evidence? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. None of us are forgetting 11 that we're sitting in our chairs right now; that's a 12 situation of having a head injury, correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Transport was important but it wasn't 15 looked into until after that twenty (20) minute period, 16 correct? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Okay. And just to be fair to you, 19 you also testified that you still thought you were in a 20 tactical situation; do you remember that? 21 A: Oh, definitely, yes. 22 Q: Right. Despite the fact that all the 23 OPP officers had walked back to the TOC centre and were 24 getting their vehicles ready to leave, correct? 25 A: I don't remember vehicles leaving
871 but... 2 Q: But that was the general state, was 3 it not; people were getting ready to leave the area? 4 A: I wasn't familiar with that. I know 5 that my -- my team members had come back and been 6 reassigned. 7 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. 8 Commissioner, thanks. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Mr. Scullion. 11 Ms. Johnson...? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 16 wonder if we might have our morning break now? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 18 We'll take a morning break now. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 11:21 a.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 11:39 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
881 resumed, please be seated. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 4 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: Good morning, I'm sorry. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's still 8 morning -- 9 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good morning, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- another 12 twenty (20) minutes. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 15 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson, I'm here 16 today representing the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 17 Point, as well as the Chiefs of Ontario. I have just a 18 few questions for you, sir, in a couple of areas. 19 You've indicated that at the time this 20 event occurred, that you were a volunteer; is that 21 correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And as such, had you had any training 24 in your professional career with regards to Aboriginal 25 issues?
891 A: Not at that time, other than I 2 believe in my basic nursing training, because we deal a 3 little bit with some multi-cultural issues. There had 4 been some there but... 5 Q: Basically, no, correct? 6 A: Basically, no. Right. 7 Q: Had you had any training with regards 8 to cultural sensitivity? 9 A: Not at that time, no. 10 Q: Okay. Any training in police 11 procedures? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And who would have provided that 14 training? 15 A: It was provided through the auxiliary 16 program in the Ontario Provincial Police Academy at 17 Brampton at that time. 18 Q: But you weren't an auxiliary officer 19 at that time; is that correct? 20 A: No. But the intention was to bring 21 me on, so I had done the training in the spring and I was 22 qualified except for being sworn in. 23 Q: And what dates was that training? 24 A: I believe it was the end of February. 25 Not exactly sure of the date. Well, it would have been
901 February of that year. 2 Q: And how long was that training? 3 A: One (1) weekend. 4 Q: One (1) weekend? 5 A: One weekend (1); that's the standard 6 auxiliary course, initially. 7 Q: And so that was in 1995? 8 A: It would have been 1995, yes. 9 Q: And were there other people with 10 medical training who were coming on as auxiliary officers 11 the same as you were? 12 A: Not at that time, no. I was the 13 first. 14 Q: Okay. And with regards to your 15 obligation as a volunteer to maintain notes, can you 16 describe for us what that was; what your obligation was? 17 A: I understood my obligation to be, 18 because I was a volunteer and not a -- not a police 19 officer, was to keep notes the same as I would on a 20 regular EMS call. Although I don't have an ambulance 21 call report, so at the end I would generate some kind of 22 document that would reflect my assessment findings. 23 Q: And does -- did that obligation 24 change once you were sworn in as an auxiliary officer? 25 A: Yes.
911 Q: And what are the obligations of an 2 auxiliary officer with regards to maintaining notes? 3 A: Supposed to basically keep notes of 4 your activities so that you can account for your time and 5 roughly what you were doing. 6 Q: Similar to the kinds of notes that we 7 see from police officers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: But on that evening you were not an 10 auxiliary officer? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And so your testimony here is that 13 you did not keep those kinds of notes? 14 A: No, I didn't keep notes in that type 15 of detail. 16 Q: And My Friend earlier asked you some 17 questions with regards to a typed version of your rough 18 draft notes at Tab 18 -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- the last page, I believe, of that 21 document. And can you indicate for us who typed those 22 notes? 23 A: I typed those. 24 Q: And when did you type those? 25 A: I believe -- I'm not exactly sure
921 when I typed them up, whether I typed them up in 2 anticipation of -- well it would have to have been before 3 I knew I was going to be interviewed. I think I just did 4 them up so they were -- sometimes I can't read my own 5 writing so it's better if I do them fairly quickly. 6 So although I can't say for sure, I would 7 think that I probably did it within certainly a week -- a 8 week or so after the call. 9 Q: You're certain of that? 10 A: I'm not positive. I might have done 11 it before the interview. 12 Q: And how long after -- 13 A: The first interview. 14 Q: -- would the first interview have 15 been? 16 A: I'm not sure of the timeline. The 17 date was mentioned this morning earlier. 18 Q: Do you have a recollection of typing 19 the notes? 20 A: Vaguely. But I know they're my notes 21 because it's my lexicon that I would use. 22 Q: And so -- 23 A: Basically my shorthand. 24 Q: -- I'm going to ask you about the 25 notes. Did you have more than what you've talked about
931 having a tape that you write things on on your hand; 2 things like that? 3 A: I believe I had a card that I could 4 put away, and that's for safety reasons. 5 Q: Did you have a piece of paper you 6 were jotting things down on as well? 7 A: No, I prefer a card in the field 8 because it's a little -- little stiffer. 9 Q: So when you -- 10 A: I tend to put my pen through paper 11 when I write on it. 12 Q: And so when you were typing, did you 13 type verbatim? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You're certain of that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: No changes were made to these at all? 18 A: No. I might have changed the order 19 so that this flowed a little better, but I was -- I am 20 aware that if you're transcribing rough notes that you 21 try and keep that -- transfer the same information, 22 basically they should match. 23 Q: Okay. With regards to the injuries 24 of Cecil Bernard George, now you've talked a fair bit 25 about the Glasgow Coma Scale. And I'm not going to ask
941 you a lot about that, but I do -- you mentioned today 2 that a variation of one (1) is not significant? 3 A: No. It may be, that's something 4 that's judged by time. But, I mean very often, even now 5 in clinical practice, if I go in and score a patient in 6 my emergency department and my partner goes in in half an 7 hour and scores the same patient, there may be a 8 variation. 9 Usually we -- because we tend to overlap 10 in duties we try to both go at the same time so we're 11 looking at the same thing, and then we're sure if -- say 12 I -- basically my patient but I wasn't available, but was 13 tied up doing something else and it came time to do that 14 assessment, that she could do it and understand what I 15 was looking at. 16 Q: So your short answer is that a 17 variation of one (1) is not significant? 18 A: No. I mean -- 19 Q: So is -- 20 A: -- a little red flag would go up 21 because you look at it and say well it's a change. 22 Q: So an overall score of thirteen (13) 23 could be a range of twelve (12) to fourteen (14)? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Okay.
951 A: And it's more likely to be that way 2 if two (2) separate operators scored the patient. 3 Q: So that you would agree that there is 4 a bit of subjectivity to the assessment tool? 5 A: Well my experience with the Glasgow 6 Coma Scale is that -- I mean I'm consistent in the way I 7 apply it, but not everybody is schooled the same way. 8 So, for example, you may get a slightly different 9 response if you were to use, for example, a different 10 painful stimuli. 11 The recognized painful stimuli is either 12 orbital pressure in the corner of the eye, which I 13 personally don't like to use, or compression of the nail 14 bed, which is the one I use. 15 Q: But you thought that Mr. George was 16 uncooperative; is that correct? 17 A: That entered my mind, yes. 18 Q: Well it entered your testimony as 19 well. 20 A: Well, whether he was uncooperative or 21 not able to cooperate, but... 22 Q: I'm sorry, I indicated testimony and 23 I -- if I could just ask you to turn to Tab 18 -- 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: -- which is actually the OPP
961 interview, not testimony, I apologize for that, by 2 Detective Constable Mark Dew. And if you could go to 3 page 3 of that document. About halfway down you'll see - 4 - it's easy to see the initials BTLS in parentheses? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And you indicated: 7 "What I found with Mr. George was that 8 he didn't want to cooperate." 9 A: That's probably poor phrasing on my 10 point but that's -- whether he didn't -- or did or 11 didn't, I didn't find him fully cooperative. Now -- 12 Q: Sir, you indicated he -- 13 A: -- whether that was because of his 14 head injury or not. 15 Q: -- didn't want to cooperate, whether 16 it's poor phrasing at that time or not, you indicated at 17 that point he didn't want to cooperate. I submit to you 18 that that was in your mind as you were assessing him? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Okay. And it was in your mind -- 21 A: That was in my mind that he may not 22 be fully cooperating with me. 23 Q: And it was in your mind that he had 24 resisted police? 25 A: Well, yes, he was in an altercation
971 and now he was in custody. 2 Q: And that that was how he wound up 3 being in front of you? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And I would suggest to you, sir, that 6 in your assessment of him those things were in your mind? 7 A: Oh definitely, because as a tactical 8 medic I'm dressed like a police officer. So he -- 9 Q: No, I'm not talking about whether he 10 was cooperative with you because of your dress, or not. 11 A: Okay. Fair enough. 12 Q: I'm talking about what was in your 13 mind. In your mind was that he was refusing to 14 cooperate. 15 A: Okay. I was just taking it to why it 16 was in my mind which I think is important. 17 Q: Do you recall, sir, having to raise 18 your voice to have him respond to you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: To commands? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And would you agree, sir, that in 23 having to raise your voice to get his attention, to get 24 him to focus on you, is not consistent with a person who 25 is refusing to cooperate?
981 A: I disagree. It may be and it may not 2 be. 3 Q: And what might it be other than that? 4 A: It may be because of his head injury. 5 It may be because he's partially deaf. 6 Q: And because of his head injury, can 7 you tell me about that if you're having to raise your 8 voice to have him respond to you? 9 A: The -- the -- raising your voice to 10 someone that has a head injury, and we're not talking 11 about shouting we're just talking about increasing 12 volume -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- is a natural clinical procedure. 15 If someone doesn't respond the first time they may not 16 hear you, they may have impaired hearing. We take that 17 to the extreme. If the patient is fully deaf -- 18 Q: If I can -- 19 A: -- you may not get a response unless 20 you touch them. 21 Q: If I can just focus you for a minute, 22 sir, with regards to a head injury -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- taking away issues of hearing -- 25 A: Okay.
991 Q: -- can you tell me what that would 2 indicated to you if you're having to raise your voice to 3 get his attention with regards to a head injury 4 specifically? 5 A: I don't regard it as clinically 6 relevant to his head injury. It doesn't -- it doesn't 7 give me an indication of how seriously injured he is or 8 my -- my concern is and why I raise my voice is to be 9 sure myself that he can hear me, that he can -- has the 10 opportunity to respond to that if he wants to or can. 11 Q: So you don't regard that as being an 12 issue of lapsing in and out of consciousness? 13 A: No, I get elderly patients in my 14 department all the time that I have to raise my voice to 15 for -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- normal conversation with them and 18 -- and they don't have head injuries. 19 Q: If we can just focus on Cecil Bernard 20 George here. 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: Is it possible that the need to raise 23 your voice to gain his attention is significant of 24 lapsing in and out of consciousness? 25 A: No, I don't make that correlation
1001 clinically. I think there are -- there's -- there's 2 other indicators that are better indicators of that. 3 Q: Do you agree that he was lapsing in 4 and out of consciousness as you were examining him? 5 A: I wouldn't use that phrase. 6 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask you to turn 7 to Tab 5, page 2 of that tab, and this is a report that's 8 authored, I believe, by Dr. Marr. 9 And it's Inquiry Document 1000047. And, 10 Mr. Commissioner, we are not certain that this has been - 11 - 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It is an exhibit. 13 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Oh, it has been. 14 Okay. We -- we were having some difficult. It's 15 apparently Exhibit Number 387. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 19 Q: And I would just ask you to read, 20 sir, the last sentence of the first paragraph. 21 A: Sorry, Tab 5 which page? 22 Q: Page -- the second page of that, 319 23 is the big page number at the top? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Well, perhaps you could read the last
1011 two (2) -- 2 A: Sure. 3 Q: -- sentences of that paragraph. 4 A: "They were unable to obtain a blood 5 pressure and were unable to immobilize 6 his neck and he was reported to be 7 lapsing in and out of consciousness." 8 Q: Okay. And just prior to that it 9 indicates the ambulance attendants reported a thready 10 pulse en route. 11 A: Hmm. 12 Q: So you wouldn't use the term 'lapsing 13 in and out of consciousness' but other people that 14 evening did; is that correct? 15 A: Well, actually the least trained 16 medical provider used that term. That's not actually Dr. 17 Marr. My -- when I read this -- 18 Q: That's -- 19 A: -- paragraph my impression is -- 20 Q: That's true. 21 A: -- that's what the St. John Ambulance 22 attendant referred to her. 23 Q: And of all those who were the least 24 trained personnel around those were the people that you 25 entrusted his care to; is that correct?
1021 A: That's correct. 2 Q: So I'm going to suggest to you that 3 your assessment of him as being a thirteen (13) on the 4 Glasgow Coma Scale could, in fact, be significantly 5 different when you take into account your testimony that 6 there's a variation of one (1) being not significant -- 7 A: Well, it -- 8 Q: -- and so it could be twelve (12) to 9 fourteen (14)? 10 A: Except I did both assessments and got 11 thirteen (13) both times. 12 Q: Okay. And you did that with the 13 subjective notion that he was refusing to cooperate with 14 you? 15 A: No, I scored the worse case scenario 16 as I saw it. 17 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. 18 Commissioner. Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Ms. Johnson. 21 Yes, Mr. Roy...? 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good morning, still. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 morning. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: Mr. Commissioner, I just
1031 have a few minutes of questions -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- as most of my areas 4 have been covered by other counsel. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 8 Q: Good morning, sir. 9 A: Good morning. 10 Q: My name is Julian Roy. I am one of 11 the counsel for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto and I 12 just have a few more questions for you. 13 And it's in regard to your notebooks -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- that were destroyed. Are you able 16 to -- let me ask you this first of all, you're confident 17 that those notebooks weren't destroyed within a couple of 18 days of September 6th, 1995, right? 19 A: No. No, I'm absolutely confident of 20 that. This was a -- a considerable time later and it was 21 basically I was doing a clean up of the basement, sort 22 of, my office area there, and I had left over materials 23 from when I'd worked at Base Hospital and it was -- I 24 just failed to separate. 25 Q: All right. And in terms of the
1041 number of years after the events of September 6th, 1995, 2 can you estimate for us how -- how many years that would 3 have been? 4 A: Well, it would have been -- well, I 5 went looking for the notebook before I gave testimony the 6 first time because all I had was the -- my typewritten 7 copy of -- 8 Q: That would have been the first time 9 you gave testimony in one of the criminal proceedings; is 10 that right? 11 A: Yes, or it might have been when I 12 gave a statement for one of those. I don't remember 13 which. 14 Q: All right. Now, you told us that you 15 were sworn in within days after the event? 16 A: Actually I believe it was within 17 forty-eight (48) hours of the -- I think my date of being 18 sworn in was the 7th -- or the 8th, sorry. 19 Q: All right. So by September 8th, 1995 20 you're an auxiliary OPP officer with all the obligations 21 and duties that entails; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you would have been -- received 24 some training concerning your obligations as an auxiliary 25 OPP officer prior to that, correct?
1051 A: Correct. 2 Q: All right. And you've told us -- you 3 told one of my colleagues what your obligations were 4 concerning note-taking as an auxiliary officer? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: What was your understanding of your 7 obligations in terms of preserving evidence in terms of 8 you being an auxiliary OPP officer? 9 A: In terms of forensic evidence? 10 Q: Preserving any evidence of any kind 11 whatsoever concerning your duties? 12 A: Well, to the best of your ability you 13 -- you try to maintain that. 14 Q: All right. So you were trained -- 15 you received training as an auxiliary officer that you 16 were to take steps to preserve evidence that you'd 17 collected or created in the course of your duties? 18 A: I received minimal training in 19 protection of evidence in the auxiliary program. 20 Q: Okay. In that minimal training did 21 that alert you to the issue about your EMS notebooks that 22 you pre -- prepared? 23 A: Oh yeah. Yes. I mean, in preference 24 I would have put them aside. 25 Q: Okay. Now, I want to ask you about
1061 your refusal to be interviewed by the SIU -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in December 1997. I believe you 4 told Mr. Rosenthal that that was based on legal advice -- 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: -- that you received at the time. 7 And I don't want to get into what legal advice you 8 received; you're entitled to keep that private between 9 you and your lawyer. 10 But it was Norman Peel that was your 11 lawyer, correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you understood that Norman Peel 14 was Ken Deane's lawyer also, correct? 15 A: He was actually the lawyer -- I 16 believe at that time he was the lawyer that was assigned 17 to the team. 18 Q: And when you say "the team" you mean 19 the TRU Team, correct? 20 A: Yes. In the similar fashion that the 21 team has been assigned counsel for this proceeding as 22 well. 23 Q: All right. And in terms of Mr. 24 Peel's role, you didn't understand that Mr. Peel was in a 25 position to give you orders or directions concerning your
1071 conduct, did you? 2 A: Sorry? 3 Q: You didn't understand that Mr. Peel 4 was in the position to give you orders or directions 5 concerning your conduct? 6 A: My understanding is that he could 7 offer advice but the decision was mine. 8 Q: All right. So you -- you were in no 9 doubt that you had the choice, whether or not, you wanted 10 to follow any advice that Mr. Peel gave you, correct? 11 Yes? 12 A: Yes. It was my -- it was my -- 13 ultimately it was my decision. 14 Q: All right. So ultimately it was your 15 decision not to cooperate with the SIU investigation, 16 right? 17 A: It was my decision to not provide a 18 generic statement, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And you -- 20 A: I wouldn't go as far to say not 21 cooperate because my recollection of the meeting was that 22 if they wanted to come back with specific questions that 23 we would be happy to entertain those. 24 Q: All right. Did you understand that 25 you had any role in terms of dictating to the SIU how
1081 they were going to conduct an interview to you? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. So you didn't -- you decide -- 4 you chose not to cooperate with the way they wanted to 5 conduct their investigation, correct? 6 A: I'm sorry? 7 Q: You made a choice not to submit to 8 the way the SIU wanted to conduct their investigation, 9 correct? 10 A: Correct. That was -- and that was on 11 the advice of counsel. 12 Q: All right. But, ultimately your 13 choice correct? 14 A: Well, given the -- given the initial 15 framework the way they wanted to proceed was -- no we 16 didn't like that framework so we didn't go with that. 17 Q: Okay. But, ultimately you take 18 responsibility for that choice? 19 A: Yes I do. 20 Q: You're not blaming a lawyer are you? 21 A: No, no that's my choice. 22 Q: Okay. And while you chose not to 23 submit to an interview by the SIU on their terms you were 24 perfectly happy to cooperate with a OPP interview, 25 correct?
1091 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you didn't make any effort to 3 dictate the terms by which that interview was going to be 4 conducted did you? 5 A: No, but I -- okay. 6 Q: In terms of your training as an 7 auxiliary officer, did you receive any training 8 concerning what your obligations were concerning an SIU 9 investigation? 10 A: Very minimal. 11 Q: And what was the content of that very 12 minimal training if you could just -- 13 A: Basically you do your best to 14 cooperate with SIU. 15 Q: All right. In terms of doing your 16 best, was it -- were you trained that it was a legal 17 obligation that you had? 18 A: Under the Police Act it is a legal 19 obligation. 20 Q: And that was part of your training 21 that you received? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Has anybody up to this point ever 24 taken issue? Anybody from the OPP ever taken issue with 25 how you dealt with the SIU's request for an interview?
1101 A: No, they have not. 2 Q: In terms of the pin that you've 3 already given evidence about -- 4 A: Yes -- 5 Q: -- did you ever receive any direction 6 or memo from OPP Command concerning the pin? 7 A: I don't have a recollection of -- no. 8 Q: All right. So in other words, nobody 9 has told you that you're not to wear the pin; is that 10 correct? 11 A: That's correct. Although it's not -- 12 I recognize that it's not an approved device, so I don't 13 wear it on my uniform; I never have. 14 Q: Okay. Have you seen anybody else 15 wear it on their uniform? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I don't have a specific recollection 20 of that, no. There's another pin as I've already 21 mentioned that's very similar so -- and unless you're up 22 close... 23 Q: All right. The other pin you're 24 talking about is just the TRU pin without Ken Deane's 25 number on it?
1111 A: It's just a straight TRU pin without 2 Ken Deane's number on it so occasionally you'll find 3 people wearing that. Or you'll see people wearing that. 4 Q: You told -- in chief you testified 5 about what your understanding was of the purpose of that 6 pin, was to give moral support, so to speak, to Ken Deane 7 in terms of following his conviction and his appeal 8 proceedings? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Where did you get that understanding 11 from? 12 A: That's my -- I'm not sure exactly 13 where that came from. 14 Q: Is it safe to say that it would have 15 come from discussions with other TRU officers? 16 A: I wouldn't want to speculate but 17 that's -- probably. 18 Q: Now in terms of the T-shirt that 19 you've described, the black T-shirt or any other T-shirt 20 that was created as a result of -- or in the aftermath of 21 this incident -- 22 A: Right -- 23 Q: -- being September 6th, 1995, has 24 anybody ever -- from the OPP ever interviewed you or 25 investigated you concerning your knowledge of the
1121 creation of these T-shirts? 2 A: No. Until counsel asked me, I'd 3 never been asked about T-shirts or pins. 4 Q: All right. And had somebody asked 5 you about it, you would have freely provided information 6 in terms of what you knew about the T-shirts? 7 A: Yes, well basically I didn't know 8 anything about the T-shirt except that I had seen it. 9 Q: Okay. And the T-shirt you're talking 10 about is the black T-shirt with the anvil, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you wouldn't -- had anybody from 13 the OPP in an official capacity or otherwise come to you 14 and asked you about your knowledge of T-shirts you would 15 have freely told them about the black T-shirt with the 16 anvil, correct? 17 A: That I had seen it, yes. 18 Q: All right. Those are my questions. 19 Thank you very much. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Roy. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 24 Jones...? 25 How long do you think you might be?
1131 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. I think I'll be about twenty (20) minutes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: I wanted to take you through a few 8 areas and hopefully I'll do them chronologically so they 9 make some sense. 10 You had spoke in your evidence about 11 hearing, when the TRU members got back to the TOC, Ken 12 Deane saying that he had shot and someone had gone down 13 and I wanted to ask you a few questions about that. 14 Can you recall when that con -- when you 15 heard that? Was that immediately when TRU came back to 16 the TOC or later or at some other time? 17 A: No, I think that was fairly 18 immediate, when -- when the members first started to come 19 back. 20 Q: Okay. Was there anything else that 21 Ken Deane said do you recall? 22 A: Well, there was actually two (2) 23 parts to the conversation that I remember; that -- what 24 I've already described, the -- the part about him firing 25 and believing that he hit someone; that was significant
1141 from -- there might be a casualty out there somewhere, 2 but that he had been taken from the scene by two (2) 3 individuals that were standing with that person at the 4 time. 5 And the other part of the conversation 6 that I distinctly remember was he mentioned that there 7 had been muzzle flashes. 8 Q: And what was it about -- why -- why 9 would you distinctly remember -- 10 A: The muzzle flashes were significant 11 because I remember him saying that he had fired at them. 12 My -- in my military training firing at muzzle flash is a 13 -- is a common technique if you're engaged in combat at 14 night. 15 Up until that point I hadn't really -- or 16 in any of my training with TRU we hadn't really discussed 17 that or I hadn't been exposed to that aspect so it sort 18 of stuck out and I took notice that that was -- to me 19 that was unusual at the time because I hadn't been 20 exposed to that aspect. 21 Q: You were asked -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 23 Rosenthal...? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, Mr. 25 Commissioner. If you recall the notion that if new
1151 evidence is to be introduced by the person's own witness 2 in -- in chief ultimately that we're supposed to be 3 apprised of that ahead of time so that we can cross- 4 examine. 5 I didn't get any indication there would be 6 any using of his military experience to try to justify 7 the shooting of Dudley George with respect to muzzle -- 8 muzzle flashes as he just testified to. 9 THE WITNESS: That wasn't my intention 10 to -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- I'm sorry, 12 excuse me. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I would request 15 the opportunity to cross-examine in this area if -- if 16 Counsel is allowed to produce this evidence. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, if I 21 can just respond? I didn't hear anything from this 22 Witness that suggests what Mr. Rosenthal said. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 24 getting close though. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm -- I'm --
1161 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 2 getting -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm not asking any more 4 questions about that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 6 asking any more questions? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: No. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because 9 you're getting close and we do have an understanding that 10 in examination -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: No. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- comes at 13 the end, you won't introduce new areas that can't be -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- cross- 16 examined on. Yes? 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: I have another concern 18 which is related but independent of Mr. Rosenthal's 19 concern is that this Witness was asked specific questions 20 about what Ken Deane said following the shooting? 21 THE WITNESS: Can I address that, sir? 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: And at no time did he 23 mention muzzle flashes which is what -- it's obviously 24 significant evidence. It ought to have come out in 25 chief; it didn't. And for it now to come out in re-
1171 examination in my respectful submissions is very, very 2 unfair to those who have cross-examined in front of this 3 evidence. And I have -- I have the page references -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- if you'd like them. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What are 7 we -- 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: It's at page 244 and 9 245 -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- of his evidence on 12 May 26th, 2006. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 14 going to ask anymore questions in this area and we're 15 going to move on? Is that what we're going to do? 16 Ms. Vella, do you have some comment you 17 want to make? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The -- the only comment 19 I have to make is I did ask questions about this 20 conversation. This is a new item and it may well be fair 21 to permit additional cross-examination on the particular 22 item. It didn't come out in chief. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It did? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It did not. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It did not?
1181 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It did not come out in- 2 chief. We canvassed the conversation but for whatever 3 reason it didn't come out -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 5 hear it. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- in that canvassing. 7 So it is a new piece of evidence or information that may 8 warrant cross-examination. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 10 not going to pursue it in any event? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: No. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 We'll see where we are when you finish. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: You were asked some questions about 17 whether or not you took any steps to follow up on with 18 what Ken Deane said. And can you help us understand at 19 that point in time whether or not you were in a position 20 to follow up, for example, by going to the park or making 21 investigations in terms of where the person was? 22 A: Absolutely not. The -- to start 23 with, my understanding from that conversation was that 24 the individual had been taken back into the park. And 25 right from the beginning of the operation we -- it had
1191 been stressed to us in every briefing that we were not to 2 go into the park. 3 And then at that point in time, after 4 shots had been fired, we didn't have the manpower to go 5 in and look; it wouldn't have been safe. 6 Q: And in terms of whether or not it 7 would have been safe to go into the park, would that have 8 been your overriding concern in terms of whether or not 9 you could render any assistance in the circumstances? 10 A: Yes. Safety is the overriding 11 concern at all times. 12 Q: And would your answer be the same if, 13 for example, there was an officer in the park? 14 A: Yes. Basically, if it was considered 15 that it couldn't be done safely or there would be 16 additional loss of life, then I could see that it would 17 be the same. 18 Q: You were asked some questions about 19 the assessment that you did on Cecil Bernard George. In 20 your evidence in-chief at page 268 you had indicated that 21 you believed it was about ten (10) or fifteen (15) 22 minutes between the time you first saw Cecil Bernard 23 George until the time he was on a stretcher? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And I want to ask you a couple of
1201 questions about that time. You had indicated in your 2 evidence in-chief that during the period of time you were 3 attending to Cecil Bernard George you did two (2) 4 assessments -- 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: -- of him. And is that usual or 7 unusual to do that as part of your protocol for 8 assessment? 9 A: That's -- that's unusual. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: That's unusual. Normally I would 12 have been happy with doing one (1). 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I wanted to be sure in my own mind 15 because it only takes a couple of minutes to do the 16 assessment. And then I was faced with a different 17 transport decision than I would normally be faced with so 18 I wanted to be sure that I wasn't going to -- that I 19 could match appropriate transport to his condition. 20 Q: Okay. And by doing two (2) 21 assessments, you had said about ten (10) minutes or so 22 apart -- 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: -- you've talked about the Glasgow 25 Coma Scale as being important in terms of trends --
1211 A: Right. 2 Q: -- that is that each individual score 3 may in and of itself not be significant, but a trend is 4 significant? 5 A: That's correct. And trend is most 6 important. 7 Q: Okay. And the period of time that 8 elapsed between when you first saw Cecil Bernard George 9 and when he was loaded in the stretcher, did that time 10 also include, for example, giving a report to the 11 ambulance attendants? 12 A: Yes, it did. 13 Q: Okay. And was that period of time, 14 in your mind, longer? Was Cecil Bernard George in the 15 TOC for longer than he ought to have been? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. I wanted to ask you a few 18 questions about the Glasgow Coma Scale, just to make sure 19 what your evidence is -- is clear on that. You had told 20 Ms. Vella in your evidence in-chief that you had worked 21 in the Victoria Hospital for a number of years in the 22 intensive care unit? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And as part of your work at the 25 Victoria Hospital, did that involve caring for people
1221 with head injuries or suspected head injuries? 2 A: Yes, it did. 3 Q: And in the ICU would you have had an 4 opportunity to follow through with them in terms of 5 seeing how people's conditions progressed over the course 6 of time? 7 A: Oh, yes. Over the course of hours, 8 days, even weeks in some cases. 9 Q: Okay. And similarly, as an ambulance 10 attendant and with your EMT work, would you have had an 11 opportunity to observe and assess people with head 12 injuries or potential head injuries? 13 A: Yes. Both in the field and I worked 14 for a hospital-based service so we were able to follow up 15 with patients and stay with them in emerg if we weren't 16 doing calls. 17 And then when I worked as a flight nurse - 18 - flight paramedic -- 19 Q: Yes -- 20 A: -- transporting patients by air over 21 long distances, you'd be with them for extended periods 22 of time. 23 Q: Okay. And can you help us 24 understand, in your view, the significance of a Glasgow 25 Coma Scale in -- a range now has been given of between
1231 twelve (12) and fourteen (14) on an initial assessment? 2 A: The range between twelve (12) and 3 fourteen (14), in my mind, is -- on a single measurement, 4 denotes at least a minor head injury. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Possibly something that's more 7 significant if it's a hard twelve (12). 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: There's -- there's -- 10 Q: And if over the course of time, and 11 you've had an opportunity to look at Cecil Bernard 12 George's hospital records within a period of the next 13 hour or so, that the Glasgow Coma Scale numbers 14 increased, what would be your evaluation of the 15 situation? 16 A: That most likely in the short term 17 that his decreased -- or his altered mental state was due 18 to a concussion; if he got better. 19 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 20 questions by Ms. Vella about your decision to send Cecil 21 Bernard George in the St. John's Ambulance. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it was a bit of a double barrel 24 question. So I just wanted to go back to it and make 25 sure that your evidence was clear. I think she had asked
1241 you given two (2) different factors, one (1) was Cecil 2 Bernard George's condition and the other was the 3 experience or knowledge of the St. John's Ambulance 4 attendant, whether or not you would have sent Cecil 5 Bernard George in a St. John's Ambulance. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And I think there were a couple of 8 different answers that you gave to that. And I wondered 9 if you could assist us by clarifying what, if any, factor 10 is significant to you in terms of what -- how he ought to 11 have been transported? 12 A: Okay. I believe the questions before 13 that one (1), we were dealing with Mr. George's injuries. 14 And the way I understood and the way I believed I was 15 answering the question, was that in relation to his 16 injuries I wouldn't make changes, that I thought that my 17 assessment was appropriate an on the mark. 18 In terms of transport, however, I believe 19 I said that I wouldn't change the level of transport. 20 And I think knowing what I know today versus what I 21 thought I knew that night or the information that I was 22 given, it would be better if he had been transported by 23 Ministry of Health. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: A lot of these issues would have been
1251 put at rest right at the beginning. 2 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 3 about your assessment of the relative safety or danger of 4 the TOC -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- during the period of time that you 7 were there attending to Cecil Bernard George. Did that 8 have any effect on your views about whether or not the 9 St. John's Ambulance attendants ought to be involved in 10 his transfer? 11 A: Oh, most definitely. 12 Q: Why is that? 13 A: I considered the area of the TOC, 14 after shots were fired, to be a totally unsecure area. 15 When we had pickets out, but the area was dark, there was 16 adequate cover up very close to the TOC area. And so 17 there were safety issues, basically, if somebody was 18 going to come for us. 19 Even stray rounds; I mean we're in the 20 middle of an open area, there was no cover in the middle 21 of the parking lot other than that offered by the sides 22 of the van, which is totally inadequate. 23 And I'm -- from a tactical sense, I'm in 24 one (1) of the worst situations that I can think of, 25 which is I'm sitting in the back of a van with the doors
1261 open with a light where people hundreds of metres away if 2 they wanted to take a pot shot at me -- and I'm dressed 3 like a police officer, they could hit me, they could hit 4 bystanders, they could hit my patient. 5 So it's wasn't -- it wasn't secure and it 6 wasn't safe. The other aspect is, because of shots being 7 fired -- calls that I had done previous to that I can't 8 remember shots being fired. 9 That changed the whole context, in my 10 mind, in that it opened up the possibility that we were 11 actually going to be hunted, so that raised again the -- 12 the safety issue. So I'm faced with a patient that I 13 know that needs transport, sooner is better than later. 14 I believe I have an adequate resource to do that with. 15 And the additional advantage of sending 16 him with St. John rather than -- than waiting for a 17 Ministry ambulance, and I had -- by estimates that I had 18 been given before I believed the closest backfill vehicle 19 was going to be at least thirty (30) to forty (40) 20 minutes away. 21 In that time interval St. John could have 22 Mr. George at the hospital where he can be further 23 assessed and monitored in -- in good conditions. He's 24 out of the danger area and the St. John crew is out of 25 the danger area.
1271 Q: You were asked some questions about 2 whether, for example, emergency medical technician like 3 yourself had been in a position to provide assistance to 4 Dudley George onsite, whether that might have made a 5 difference to the outcome. And again, I was not quite 6 clear about your answer. 7 You had talked about, I think at one (1) 8 stage in time it could have, and -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- at another stage in time you 11 spoke about knowledge you had learned, subsequent to the 12 events, about his injuries. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And I wondered if you could clarify 15 for us whether or not, in your view, and given what you 16 know now, whether you're of the view that immediate 17 emergency medical services would have been of assistance 18 in the outcome? 19 A: Sure. Because -- well, basically, as 20 a medical provider I had no one that I could talk to to 21 get information about -- about this call, so for years I 22 was left to sort of analyse what I knew of the case or 23 what I'd sort of picked up from testimony and -- and in 24 the papers. 25 It wasn't until -- because I missed part
1281 of the -- Ken Deane's trial, actually, I wasn't able to 2 go, the first two (2) days I was working, I wasn't aware, 3 up until I was interviewed by detectives from the 4 Coroner's Office, that he had had a laceration to his 5 pulmonary artery. 6 And subsequent to that I've had the 7 opportunity to read both Dr. Andy McCallum's report of 8 the care of Dudley George, and I've had a chance to look 9 at Dudley George's autopsy report and I understand that 10 he actually had two (2) pulmonary arteries lacerated. 11 And as -- as far as being able to deal 12 that -- with that in the field, I think that I wouldn't 13 have -- (a) I wouldn't have known that so I would have 14 treated him to the best of my ability. If I had been 15 able to treat Dudley George, I firmly believe today that 16 the outcome would be exactly the same. 17 What I believe would be different is how 18 we view that outcome and that is that... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: In my role as a healthcare provider, 23 and especially when I worked in ICU, it was very common 24 to deliver care when you knew the outcome was going to be 25 fatal, and you did that for the benefit of the family.
1291 Pre-hospital-wise you don't always know 2 the outcome, where it's going to go, although you may 3 have your -- your suppositions. And a gunshot wound to 4 the chest in somebody that's basically bleeding out in 5 front of your eyes, is a horrific experience. 6 I have been on ambulance calls where I've 7 had similar circumstances and I certainly wouldn't wish 8 that on anybody. I view part of my role as a healthcare 9 provider to protect families from those types of things. 10 And my regret over this, my main regret 11 that I still haven't dealt with, I think, on a personal 12 level, is that if I had been able to do something, and I 13 certainly understand the circumstances around why the 14 family transported him, because if it had been me on the 15 other side I would have done exactly the same thing, but 16 I think I would have liked to have protected the family 17 from that experience, or the friends or whoever it was 18 that transported him. 19 As a healthcare provider, if I have a call 20 like that, I can take a couple of days off. I can 21 defuse. I can do the psychological debriefing. But it's 22 -- it's stuck with me because it's like going to a plane 23 crash where everybody is dead; you don't actually get to 24 do your thing. And for a healthcare provider that's very 25 difficult.
1301 Basically, the individual that was the 2 sickest that night, that needed my care, not that it 3 would have made a difference, I didn't even get to see. 4 And I regret that. And I empathize with the family for - 5 - and the friends that were forced to transport him. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't have any 7 further questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Ms. Jones. 10 Ms. Vella, how do you suggest we deal with 11 this issue? Do you want to ask some questions and see if 12 there's still some cross, or do you want to give an 13 opportunity from some cross on that point and then -- how 14 do you suggest we deal with it? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I suggest that I be 16 permitted to conduct a re-examination on -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you'll 18 ask those questions? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- his evidence, I'll 20 ask some questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And see 22 where we are? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And see where we are. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that -- 25 let's see if that works.
1311 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead Ms. 3 Vella. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 5 6 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now you've indicated to Ms. Jones 8 that you heard a particular comment attributed to Ken 9 Deane. Now this is in connection with the conversation 10 which you overhead at the TOC site -- 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: -- between Kent Skinner and Ken 13 Deane? 14 A: I'm not sure whether Kent Skinner was 15 there at that point because it was -- my recollection is 16 it was almost immediately when the team started to come 17 back, the individual sub-units, and started to congregate 18 at the TOC. 19 So they were, you know, Is anybody 20 injured; that kind of conversation. 21 Q: Who was he in conversation with? 22 A: I believe most, if not all of the -- 23 our outlying elements were back, so it would be the 24 Sierra teams. There were three (3) -- three (3) sub- 25 elements out, so I think they were all back.
1321 Q: It's your evidence that this comment 2 that you attribute to Ken Deane took place in the context 3 of him talking to a large number of ERT and TRU members? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And where were you in -- in 6 relationship to Ken Deane when you overheard this 7 comment? 8 A: Basically, they were sort of in a bit 9 of a circle and I was moving around the outside of the 10 circle. 11 Q: And how far away were you from Ken 12 Deane when you heard this? 13 A: At the most, maybe six (6) to eight 14 (8) feet. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 16 didn't hear that? 17 THE WITNESS: Six (6) to eight (8) feet. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: "Six (6) to 19 eight (8) feet?" 20 THE WITNESS: It would be normal -- 21 normal conversation mode in that I -- so I was able to 22 hear it. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: And did you hear any details from Mr.
1331 Deane with respect to where he saw the muzzle flashes 2 emanate from? 3 A: I don't have a recollection of -- of 4 the specifics. I just remember the muzzle flashes and 5 talking about them because that was significant on two 6 (2) points. One was, I'd never heard TRU members talk 7 about engaging muzzle flashes. 8 But it made perfect sense to me. And the 9 second is, is that there were actually, in his case, he 10 fired twice. So if he fired at muzzle flashes it's quite 11 possible that an individual was struck there as well. 12 So in my mind I'm relating this in terms 13 of patient -- patient care or activities and assessment 14 of possible numbers of casualties so. 15 Q: Well at the time this comment was 16 made, was it your understanding that Ken Deane had 17 discharged his firearm twice? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Where did you find that out from? 20 A: That night. I believe that he had -- 21 that's my recollection of the conversation, that he had 22 engaged muzzle flashes and then he had engaged a trio of 23 individuals standing at some point. 24 Q: Did he advise as to what the source 25 of the muzzle flashes were, in your presence?
1341 A: The source, sorry? 2 Q: The source of them, yes. 3 A: Well a muzzle flash would be taken to 4 be from a firearm. 5 Q: Appreciate what you might take from 6 it, but I'll be more specific in my question. 7 A: All you -- well I don't know what he 8 saw. 9 Q: Well, I want to know whether he said 10 what the source of the muzzle flash was? 11 A: No, just that he had seen muzzle 12 flashes. 13 Q: Or what type of firearm discharged 14 the muzzle flashes? 15 A: No. That's what I was going towards; 16 I don't remember a recollection of... 17 Q: Or what person may have discharged 18 the muzzle flashes or caused them? 19 A: My impression, if you're firing at 20 muzzle flashes, is that all you see if the flash. So you 21 don't know how many individuals are there or what kind of 22 cover they're behind or -- 23 Q: Again, I'm asking you with respect to 24 whether Ken Deane made any statement relating to whom was 25 the cause of the discharge of the muzzle flash, not your
1351 supposition. Did he utter any words to that effect? 2 A: As -- I just want to be clear on 3 this, as to who fired? 4 Q: Yes. You said you were going around 5 a circle -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- of TRU members and CMU members and 8 you heard Ken Deane say these things. 9 I'm asking you, I'm probing your memory 10 with respect to what else Ken Deane said at that time, 11 that you overheard? 12 A: Only that he had fired at the muzzle 13 flashes and there were no further muzzle flashes from 14 that area. 15 Q: Did you follow up with Ken Deane with 16 respect to these comments, given your statement a few 17 minutes ago that you had a concern for patient care? 18 A: No, because as I said, the -- in the 19 case of the second indivi -- well we never saw the first, 20 so we're not 100 percent sure that there was somebody 21 went down. And in the case of the individual that turned 22 out to be identified as Dudley George, he was taken back 23 into the Park. 24 Q: I hear you, but you're saying that 25 you had a con -- the reason -- one (1) of the reasons why
1361 you recall this statement -- 2 A: Right -- 3 Q: -- which you attribute to Ken Deane, 4 is because you said it triggered a patient care concern; 5 did you not? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: I'm asking you: Did you ask Ken 8 Deane or any other Members with respect to following up 9 his comment about having shot at the muzzle flashes? 10 A: No, because -- although that's a 11 concern or that's -- I'm aware of that there may be 12 casualties out there, they're not within our reach. So 13 if TRU wants to -- or not if TRU, it's up to Command 14 staff what they want to do about that. 15 Q: Now, you indicated that -- you stated 16 that you heard Ken Deane also advise that he had, in 17 fact, discharged his firearm? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, is this the same conversation at 20 which you heard him -- overheard him speak to the muzzle 21 flashes? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. So, there's not too 24 separate conversations, it's one (1) conversation. 25 A: No, it's the same -- same
1371 conversation. 2 Q: All right. And you'll recall that on 3 May the 26th I asked you questions with respect to 4 comments that you may have overheard with respect to Ken 5 Deane; do you recall that? 6 A: That interview in Toronto. 7 Q: On May the 26th? 8 A: Oh, sorry, yeah, that's here. Yes, 9 yes. 10 Q: Right. And you advised me the extent 11 of your recollection at the time? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: You indicated that he stated that he 14 had discharged his firearm? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And I asked you whether you had any 17 further details about your recollection of those -- of 18 the comments that you overheard from Ken Deane, and you 19 said you did not. Do you recall that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: And we're talking about the same 22 conversation at which these muzzle flash comments 23 occurred? 24 A: Yes. Now, if I may -- 25 Q: Perhaps you can wait until I ask --
1381 A: -- okay. 2 Q: -- my question. 3 A: Go ahead. 4 Q: I just want to make sure we're on the 5 same conversation. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Can you please tell me what gave rise 8 to you recollecting an additional part of that 9 conversation since May the 26th, 2006? 10 A: The context of the conversation that 11 we had on the 26th here, we were talking specifically 12 before that, I think, about Cecil Bernard George's 13 injuries, and that was sort of where I was -- was 14 thinking and -- and in answering the question I believe 15 we went from there into a safety issue. 16 But in reading the transcript from the 17 interview that we had in Toronto, I had mentioned muzzle 18 -- because I was asked specifically in Toronto and I 19 mentioned muzzle flashes. I tend to associate the two 20 (2) together; one (1) patient, two (2) patients. 21 Q: Well, I guess I'm not very clear as 22 to your explanation here. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: I asked you on May the -- or May the 25 26th --
1391 A: Right. 2 Q: -- whether you had any further 3 details of the conversation you overhead involving Ken 4 Deane. 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: That had nothing to do with Cecil 7 Bernard George? 8 A: Correct. Well, in the context before 9 that -- I misunderstood the question, I was -- I was 10 thinking somewhere else and I incorrectly answered the 11 question. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Just so there is -- I appreciate 16 you're operating on memory, so let's be specific and go 17 back to your specific testimony. 18 And this is page 246, I believe. Sorry, 19 page 244, quite right, line -- let's go right back to 20 line 9. This is my examination-in-chief: 21 "Q: All right. Did you overhear any 22 conversations, of note, involving TRU 23 Team members when they came back to the 24 TOC? 25 A: Yes, I did.
1401 Q: What did you hear? 2 A: My recollection was multiple 3 officers had actually fired their 4 weapons. And I remember, specifically, 5 Ken Deane describing that he had fired 6 and believed that he had struck and 7 individual, that that individual had 8 fallen down. But subsequent to that, 9 two (2) other individuals at the scene 10 had picked that person up and carried 11 them back towards the Park. 12 Q: All right. And who did Ken Deane 13 tell this to? 14 A: It was just in general 15 conversation with the other TRU 16 members, they were sort of in the 17 process of -- of what I'll refer to as 18 a sorting themselves out and their kit. 19 We knew that we were probably going to 20 be now redeployed for a -- some 21 different mission. 22 Q: And did you hear anything -- any 23 other details conveyed by Ken Deane at 24 that time with respect to the 25 circumstances of his discharging his
1411 firearm? 2 A: I don't remember. I don't have a 3 recollection of any other details right 4 now." 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Now does that refresh your memory 7 with respect to the context of my question? 8 A: Yes. That's what I said, but that's 9 -- when we had our interview in Toronto that -- with 10 regards to the same conversation, it was different in 11 that they -- depending on the -- the flow of the 12 conversation or whatever, I forgot that part. And I 13 regret that. 14 Q: You forgot. And my question is: 15 What prompted you to remember that, that you'd forgotten 16 this part of the conversation? 17 A: I was reading -- I was reading 18 transcript this week, our transcript from our interview 19 in Toronto. 20 Q: And I take it you read this 21 transcript as well, or did you have a recollection -- 22 A: Yes, I did. And in fact I mentioned 23 -- it's almost as soon as I left here I realized that I 24 had made that error. 25 Q: Now, we've heard evidence from Kent
1421 Skinner. You -- you knew him? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You knew that he was the leader, if 4 you will, of the TRU Team? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. He was at the TOC that 7 night when Ken Deane and others came back? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And on April the 19th, 2006 he gave 10 evidence here at this Inquiry. And at page 234 he 11 specifically denied receiving any information from Ken 12 Deane relating to muzzle flashes. 13 Now, in light of that evidence, does that 14 alter your recollection? 15 A: He may not have got that, I don't -- 16 I don't know; that's -- that's his testimony. I'm not -- 17 it was dark and I'm not sure whether he had even come 18 onto the -- the group at that point when this 19 conversation was going on, so. 20 Q: And did you, in turn, advise anyone 21 of your recollection of Ken Deane's statement that he had 22 seen muzzle flashes in connection with discharging his 23 firearm, subsequent to the -- the night of September the 24 6th? 25 A: No, because there was something in
1431 the conversation that we had in Toronto that prompted 2 that. I had a distinct memory of that right from the 3 beginning but I was never specifically asked about that. 4 Q: And so the first time that you turned 5 your mind to that statement was a few months ago in 6 preparation for this Inquiry? 7 A: No, I have had that in the back of my 8 mind right since the beginning. But I can't talk to 9 anybody about it so. 10 Q: Well, you were aware that -- that Ken 11 Deane was charged with a certain offence? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you were aware of that in advance 14 of it going to trial? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And yet you didn't determine that you 17 had material evidence with respect to that matter? 18 A: Well, before -- before I went to 19 trial I wasn't aware that it was going to be an issue. 20 And after the trial it -- it had been decided. 21 Q: Well, but it wouldn't be up to you to 22 decide what would be an issue or not. It was information 23 that was important to you; wasn't it? 24 A: Yes. I believed it would be brought 25 out by other officers. I mean, there were all kinds --
1441 there were other officers that were privy to that 2 conversation. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I -- that concludes my 4 re-examination of this witness. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With your 6 permission, Mr. Commissioner, with respect, I should like 7 to briefly examine in this area in light of the fact that 8 I was not given the opportunity because of it being 9 brought out only -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 11 anxious to have you both do it. One or the other, can 12 you -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, sir, I 14 can't -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 16 anxious to have you both go over this again. Can you 17 agree on how to deal with this? I mean, I think, do we 18 have to go over this again more than once? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I will be very 20 brief, Mr. Commissioner, but -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 22 I mean, I think it's just going to get more confusing, is 23 my concern. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: In the normal course 25 this evidence would have come out in Examination-In-Chief
1451 and as such it would have been available for cross- 2 examination. Although I appreciate that we don't want 3 any unnecessary duplication and I'm sure counsel is 4 guided by that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will you be 6 guided by that? 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 9 be guided by that? 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: I would be also but I 11 would appreciate two (2) minutes to speak to My Friends-- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- off the record just 14 to clarify something about part of his evidence before I 15 proceed with my cross-examination. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, why 17 don't you do that while Mr. Rosenthal -- 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: I can do that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because I 20 want to get this done and then break. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 24 Mr. Rosenthal. Go ahead. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I shall be very
1461 expeditious. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 3 understand. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir. 5 6 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Now, sir, you told us, did I 8 understand correctly, that you were taught in your 9 military training to shoot at muzzle flashes? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I see. Is that why we have so many 12 killing by friendly fire, sir? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 Rosenthal, I'm not sure that's a helpful cross- 15 examination -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, this 17 is -- this is asking questions about this evidence. 18 Putting propositions like that to him -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- is completely unfair 21 and doesn't give you any assistance at all. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it 23 doesn't help me, Mr. Rosenthal, it really doesn't. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With great respect, 25 Mr. Commissioner, I disagree but I'll move on.
1471 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: Now, you told us that this was quite 5 significant, sir; right, this evidence of muzzle flashes? 6 A: It was -- it was significant to me, 7 yes. 8 Q: Yes. Now, when did you review your 9 interview transcript which you say jogged your memory? 10 You reviewed it this week in preparation for returning? 11 A: This week I went -- I reviewed all -- 12 all the information that I was given, yes. 13 Q: And when was that, several days ago? 14 A: Over the course of the week. 15 Q: Over the course -- which week, today 16 is Monday? 17 A: This week that we've just -- 18 Q: The week beginning when, 19 approximately? A couple of days ago? 20 A: Since last Friday. 21 Q: Just last Friday? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: So beginning last Friday you read 24 over some documents including your interview -- 25 A: Well, Friday the 26th, I guess.
1481 Q: Sorry? 2 A: Friday the 26th, that I testified on. 3 Q: Well, there's a week in between? 4 A: Well, that's the week that I reviewed 5 this material. 6 Q: Beginning right after your testimony? 7 A: Well, I went over it again, yes. 8 Q: When did -- when did -- 9 A: I'd done that -- I'd gone over it 10 before. 11 Q: Sir -- 12 A: I didn't realize that I had -- I had 13 missed -- 14 Q: Sir, I have a very specific question, 15 may you give me a specific answer? 16 A: Go ahead. 17 Q: When did you, at some point after 18 your testimony on the 26th, first review the interview by 19 Commission Counsel that you say contained something about 20 muzzle flashes? 21 A: The original discussion of muzzle 22 flashes came up when Ms. Vella interviewed me in Toronto. 23 Q: When did you review that, sir, after 24 your testimony -- 25 A: I had a conversation with my wife on
1491 the way home on Friday realizing that I'd only told part 2 of that conversation. 3 Q: And then you reviewed it that night? 4 A: And then I checked my transcript and 5 realized I had left that out; that is my recollection. 6 Q: So you reviewed it that day you say? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I see. When did you make the 9 connection that you could explain, given your military 10 experience, how it's appropriate to shoot at muzzle 11 flashes? 12 Did you just do that during the break this 13 morning, sir? 14 A: No. 15 Q: I see. So you had planned to give 16 that evidence for the last week or so? 17 A: I believed it would come up after the 18 meeting I had with my counsel last night. 19 Q: Last night? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I see. So you planned last night 22 that you would make this connection between -- 23 A: No, no -- 24 Q: -- having heard -- 25 A: -- no, I brought it to the attention
1501 of my counsel that I didn't feel that I'd answered that 2 question appropriately. 3 Q: About the hearing of the muzzle 4 flashes? 5 A: About Ken Deane saying that he had 6 seen them. 7 Q: Ken Deane saying muzzle flashes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you also at the same time thought 10 of the idea you'll make a connection, you'll explain it 11 to us that it's appropriate to shoot at muzzle flashes, 12 right? 13 A: No, that's -- 14 Q: When did you think of that idea? 15 A: -- that's not for me to say. 16 Q: When did you think of that -- 17 A: In a military context it may be 18 appropriate. 19 Q: Yes, when did you think of that in 20 this context? 21 A: In this context? 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: It's not -- that's the decision of 24 the individual officer. 25 Q: You told us a half an hour ago, did
1511 you not sir, that you were taught in the military it's 2 appropriate to shoot at muzzle flashes, did you not? 3 A: Yes, but the military context is 4 different than the police context. 5 Q: Well, why did you mention it here if 6 it's different, sir? You tried to make a link -- 7 A: I don't understand the -- 8 Q: Were you not trying to make a link to 9 Ken Deane shooting at muzzle flashes when you mentioned 10 that it's appropriate in the military context, sir? 11 A: Well, the link is if there's a 12 perceived threat. 13 Q: Sir, I put it to you that in much of 14 your evidence you've been making it up as you go along, 15 sir? Like the fourteen (14) and the muzzle flashes and 16 the justification. You're trying to support the police 17 as you've told us was your role, sir? That's what I put 18 to you. 19 A: It is not my role in supporting the 20 police to get up and lie in support of the police. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 Mr. Rosenthal. 25 Did you have -- I think he is finished.
1521 MS. KAREN JONES: Sir, he gets to finish 2 his answer before he gets cut off. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I 4 thought he did, I wasn't looking at him. 5 Did you finish or do you want to finish? 6 You're entitled to finish your answer, sir. 7 THE WITNESS: Based on my military 8 experience, if I was faced with a threat of muzzle flash 9 I would fire. The military context is different. If I 10 believed that fire was directed at me. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe that's a 13 reasonable decision. Now, in my police training I hadn't 14 run across that -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 THE WITNESS: -- before and I understand 17 that in order for -- it's a grey area. Police officers 18 are supposed to be able to identify their target. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 Mr. Slomer, much appreciated. 21 Do you have any comments, do you want to 22 question this witness now? 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: I do with your 24 permission, Mr. Commissioner. May I? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, go
1531 ahead you said you had two (2) minutes, so go ahead. 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: I asked for two (2) 3 minutes to speak to My Friend. I -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 5 you think you're going to be? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: It depends on the 7 answers that I receive. They may lead to other 8 questions. This is a new area to me, this was sprung on 9 us -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- twenty (20) minutes 12 ago. So I'm feeling my way through. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'll do my best to keep 15 it brief. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 17 to confine it to this issue. 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: I will. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 21 22 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 23 Q: You mentioned driving home with your 24 wife at the end of your evidence on the 26th? 25 A: Yes.
1541 Q: All right. And your wife was in 2 Court -- was in the body of the Inquiry during your 3 evidence? 4 A: Yes she's here today. 5 Q: All right. And she prompted you on 6 this issue of muzzle flashes? 7 A: No she did not prompt me. 8 Q: Okay. You mentioned a discussion 9 with your wife as leading to this recollecting about the 10 muzzle flashes, how did that happen? 11 A: We were talking about basically how I 12 felt and what I thought I'd answered well, what I might 13 have been able to answer better, with greater clarity. 14 And I -- and she -- or I thought now there -- and I 15 mentioned the question of the conversation. And she said 16 yes, she says -- that her understanding was that I hadn't 17 mentioned muzzle flashes. 18 Q: Okay. And how did she know that you 19 were supposed to mention the muzzle flashes? 20 A: She has read some of the -- some of 21 the material, as well. 22 Q: Okay. So she reminded you about the 23 fact that you forgot to mention muzzle flashes? 24 A: No, it was my recollection that I 25 left out the part about the muzzle flashes. She just
1551 confirmed that she had the same recollection from my 2 testimony that afternoon. And I was able to confirm that 3 later in the evening when I read the transcript from the 4 afternoon. 5 Q: Okay. And did you have any other 6 discussions with anybody other than your wife about your 7 evidence that you gave on the 26th of May? 8 A: None. 9 Q: All right. You mentioned a 10 conversation last night, right? That you had -- 11 A: A conversation with ? 12 Q: You mentioned a conversation last 13 night regarding your evidence, did you not? 14 A: With my counsel, yes. 15 Q: All right. And who -- who 16 specifically? 17 A: Ms. Jones. 18 Q: Thank you. Was anybody else present 19 during that conversation? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You were interviewed by Constable 22 Dew, Detective Constable Dew, about your involvement in 23 the events of September 26th -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: -- 1995? You never mentioned to him
1561 anything about muzzle flashes did you? 2 A: No, but I wasn't specifically asked 3 about it. And what... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: No, I just -- I hadn't been 8 specifically asked about it -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- by anyone. 11 Q: Is there anything that -- that nobody 12 here has asked you specifically about that you have 13 information about that you'd like to tell us? 14 A: No, because I think everything that 15 I've -- all those types of issues I've raised with my 16 counsel and they've come out. 17 Q: All right. So there's nothing else 18 out there, is there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And you never mentioned when 21 you were interviewed by the Coroner's Office anything 22 about muzzle flashes did you? 23 A: No, but I think the general context 24 of that interview was different. 25 Q: Okay. And you were present at Ken
1571 Deane's trial, save for two (2) days, correct? 2 A: For the last part, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you recall one (1) of the 4 issues there was with respect to muzzle flashes, was it 5 not? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And that didn't prompt 8 you to go to anybody and talk about muzzle flashes did 9 it? 10 A: Well, the part of the trial that I 11 was at that had already been dealt with. 12 Q: Okay. How did you know that it had 13 already been dealt with? 14 A: Because we were into -- it never came 15 up. 16 Q: Okay. But how did you know it -- 17 A: It didn't come up again until the -- 18 til the -- the Crown Prosecutor made his summary at the 19 end. 20 Q: Okay. And when you heard the Crown 21 Prosecutor make the summary at the end regarding muzzle 22 flashes you would have clued into the fact that this 23 issue of muzzle flashes was significant, right? 24 A: Well, I didn't understand -- I 25 believed that the issue of muzzle flashes was that there
1581 -- there had been some. 2 Q: Okay. But then you -- you heard -- 3 A: I didn't realize it was a bone of 4 contention. 5 Q: Okay. But you certainly were aware 6 of that after the Crown raised in -- at the end of the 7 trial, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It's -- by this time you're fully 10 aware that it's a bone of contention, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And who do you approach at that point 13 to tell them about what you heard about the muzzle 14 flashes? 15 A: I didn't approach anybody because 16 anybody that I'm going to approach immediately is -- 17 they're all privy to this -- some of them were there, 18 other TRU Team members. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 22 Q: Okay. So you never approached any 23 other OPP authorities to advise that there had been a 24 great misjustice, that -- injustice that had been 25 committed in telling them about the muzzle flashes?
1591 A: My understanding of the muzzle 2 flashes was that there's been an investigation and this 3 is just my understanding that SIU had looked at that as a 4 separate issue. 5 Q: You never approached the Crown's 6 office to tell them about what you knew about the muzzle 7 flashes? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You never approached his -- Mr. 10 Deane's counsel with respect to the appeal to tell them 11 what you knew about the muzzle flashes? 12 A: No. 13 Q: If I could have a moment just to look 14 at my notes? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 16 you, Mr. Roy. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. JULIAN ROY: Those are my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Roy. 23 THE WITNESS: Can I just make a comment? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 25 to -- that's it for this witness. Thank you very much,
1601 sir. Thank you very much. 2 Do you have anything else? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much for coming and giving us your evidence and 8 you're free to go now and we're going to take a lunch 9 break now. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 13 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 14 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, thank -- thank 16 you, Mr. Slomer. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 19 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 12:54 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 2:02 p.m. 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 25 we start the next witness -- good afternoon, sir, I'm
1611 going to be giving you my ruling on the motion that was 2 argued on May the 23rd now. 3 And before I do I'd like to say that I 4 signed the written ruling, which you will all be 5 receiving electronically as soon as a I finish reading 6 it, and that is the official ruling, the written one, and 7 the one that you will be receiving. 8 9 RULING ON MOTION: 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What I'm 11 reading now I may shortcut or abbreviate certain parts of 12 it, and if I do, as I say, the written one is the 13 official one. 14 I think I have to read a fair amount of it 15 for the benefit of the public or whoever might be 16 watching us on the webcast. 17 So this is a motion that was brought by 18 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto and the Aazhoodena 19 and George Family Group for the relief set out below. 20 And the Notice of Motion is set out below. 21 The motion is supported by the Estate of 22 Dudley George and Members of the George Family, the 23 Residents of Aazhoodena and Kettle and Stony Point First 24 Nation, and the Chiefs of Ontario. The motion is opposed 25 by the Ontario Provincial Police Association and the
1621 Ontario Provincial Police, the Province of Ontario, and 2 other parties have taken no position on the motion. 3 The motion seeks the following, and I 4 don't intend to read all of the words in the motion, you 5 all have it. And for the benefit of the public, I'll 6 just say that it's for an order that I direct the Ontario 7 Provincial Police and the Ontario Provincial Police 8 Association to require all officers to preserve and 9 surrender any and all memorabilia, mementos or souvenirs 10 relating to the events at Ipperwash Park from August 1st 11 to November 1st '95. 12 And it goes on to say included but not 13 limited to items of clothing, including T-shirts, mugs 14 and so on. 15 And the second part of it is that the OPPA 16 formally notify its members of its obligations pursuant 17 to this Honourable Commission's Rules of Procedure with 18 specific reference to the obligations of members to 19 preserve and surrender any and all memorabilia and so on. 20 And thirdly, the issuance of a summons 21 pursuant to Section 7 of the Public Inquiries Act 22 directed at the Ontario Provincial Police and/or 23 Commissioner Gwen Boniface, requiring the collection and 24 production to the Inquiry of any and all memorabilia, et 25 cetera, et cetera.
1631 And then secondly, an order by the 2 Commissioner providing for the release of unedited 3 versions of Exhibits P-1051, 1052 and 1053, which are the 4 discipline records. 5 And finally, in the alternative, an order 6 providing for the disclosure of all edited information in 7 Exhibits 1051 and 1052 which are the discipline records 8 that pertain to the identify and role of any individuals 9 and/or officials who participated formally or informally 10 in the investigative and discipline process. 11 Now by way of background in my Ruling 12 which is dated August the 15th, 2005, I found that there 13 was no statutory privilege attached to the discipline 14 documents. And I ordered production to Commission 15 counsel of discipline files maintained by the OPP in 16 respect of the mugs and 17 T-shirt distributions and the discipline files maintained 18 by the OPP in respect of the discreditable conduct of 19 Detective Constable James Dyke and Detective Constable 20 Daryl Whitehead for a case by case privilege review. 21 In addition, the discipline files in 22 respect of a beer can and feathers, a bull's eye and 23 arrow, and certain cartoons and comments on a Pinery Park 24 blackboard were covered by my order, as well as the 25 discipline file in respect to Constable Chris Cossett
1641 relating to comments made by His Honour Judge Fraser and 2 his reasons for judgment in the Queen versus Kenneth 3 Deane. 4 Pursuant to my order, the files were 5 provided to Commission counsel, the OPPA requested that I 6 state a case to the Divisional Court with respect to my 7 ruling on the issue of Statutory Privilege in the 8 production of documents. The request by the OPPA was 9 supported by the OPP and the Province of Ontario. 10 Discussions took place between my counsel 11 and counsel for the OPPA, the OPP, and the Province. The 12 parties and my counsel agreed, subject to my approval, on 13 the following, which was noted on the record on February 14 6th, 2006 at pages 13 to 16. 15 And I'm quoting now from my counsel, Mr. 16 Millar, at that time, who indicated -- was it Ms. Vella? 17 I'm sorry, it was Ms. Vella who I'm quoting from: 18 "We are able to avoid this outcome by 19 settlement which we negotiated, on your 20 authority, with the Ontario Provincial 21 Police, the Ontario Provincial Police 22 Association and the Province. 23 Let me describe the settlement in 24 simple terms. 25 The OPP, OPPA and the Province have
1651 consented to releasing the discipline 2 files to the Commission for 3 distribution to the parties on the 4 following conditions. 5 The names and information which could 6 reasonably identify police officers who 7 had no involvement with the events from 8 September 4 to 6 have been redacted. 9 And second, names and information which 10 could reasonably identify the MNR or 11 the Ministry of Natural Resources 12 personnel who were interviewed by the 13 OPP investigators, have been redacted. 14 Let me be clear, however, as to what is 15 remaining in the records." 16 I'm still quoting: 17 "The names of all police officers who 18 had some involvement in the events from 19 September 4th to 6th remain in the 20 record and are disclosed by virtue of 21 their consent. 22 And this includes references made 23 by/to/ and/or statements given by 24 Incident Commander, who was then 25 Inspector Carson, Acting Detective
1661 Staff Sergeant Mark Wright, Staff 2 Sergeant Klaus Bouwman, Sergeant Kent 3 Skinner, and then Superintendent 4 Anthony Parkin." 5 As well, other officers have consented to 6 their names being disclosed, including Commissioner 7 Boniface, former Commissioner Nagel, former Commissioner 8 Tom O'Grady, and the lead investigator on the omnibus 9 complaint Dennis Adkin. 10 It also includes the three (3) subject 11 police officers who were involved in the events from 12 September 4th to 6th, being Detective Chris Cossitt and 13 Detective Constables Whitehead and Dyke. 14 Second, the police officers whose names 15 have been redacted, none of these officers had any 16 involvement in the events of September 4th to 6th, but 17 rather came after September 6th, 1995. Further, none of 18 these police officers were local; that is none were 19 assigned to the Forrest Detachment at the relevant time 20 period. 21 Two (2) other conditions were attached to 22 the proposal by the OPP and OPPA. The first, they 23 consented to the release of public disclosure information 24 without prejudice to their positions as originally argued 25 before me regarding the applicability of the Police
1671 Services Act and the existence of privilege. 2 Second, they do not consent to these 3 documents being made exhibits in this proceeding. 4 Although they do not consent, they will not challenge the 5 admissibility of the files and the circumstances of the 6 resolution of this matter so that the Inquiry may 7 continue to complete Part 1 without the interruption and 8 delay which would be caused by court proceedings. 9 Your counsel carefully considered these 10 conditions in their review of the discipline files and 11 have concluded that they are fair and reasonable and will 12 not prejudice the Commission's investigation. The 13 material condition for our purposes was the redaction of 14 names and identifying information relating to certain 15 police officers and MNR personnel. 16 We believe that this information is not 17 relevant to the work of the Inquiry, since these police 18 officers had no involvement with the events of September 19 4th to September 6th. Similarly, the MNR witnesses, in 20 the course of the police investigation, are not relevant, 21 nor are they material to assist in the Inquiry. 22 What is important is what is left intact 23 and remaining in the records, namely the substance of 24 what these officers and MNR personnel saw, heard and 25 understood in relation to these matters, as well as their
1681 candid views as to the propriety of these episodes. 2 As well, the complete investigation, 3 analysis and outcome of each of the discipline 4 investigations are fully revealed. In addition, the 5 names of those officers who did have some involvement 6 with the events of September 4th to 6th are transparent 7 and revealed fully in the records. 8 Hence, the public will now know the extent 9 to which the allegations were found to be true, whether 10 or not they were found to constitute discreditable 11 conduct, and what, if any, discipline was administered, 12 as well as the OPP institutional response to these 13 events. 14 From a systemic perspective, the public 15 will know what others who witnessed, or were party to the 16 various episodes, thought about the propriety or lack 17 thereof of those episodes. 18 Now, on February 6th I accepted the 19 settlement proposed by my counsel. And the discipline 20 files redacted, as noted above, were marked as Exhibits 21 1051, 1052 and 1053. And I stated as follows, at page 23 22 of the transcript: 23 "I want to commend counsel or 24 Commission Counsel and all counsel who 25 worked very hard to achieve this
1691 objective. I understand that Mr. 2 Falconer and others may have some 3 comment down the road. But at this 4 point we're able to produce an 5 incredible number of documents relating 6 to discipline files which will allow 7 fulsome cross-examination on issues 8 that I believe are relevant to this 9 Inquiry, without the necessity of 10 having to stated case." 11 Now, recent developments have given rise 12 to this motion. The Inquiry has heard evidence of the 13 existence of mugs and T-shirts and photographs which were 14 marked as Exhibits P-438. 15 But on May 11th, 2006 my counsel disclosed 16 to the parties the existence of another T-shirt which had 17 not been previously identified. A photograph of the logo 18 on the T-shirt was subsequently marked as Exhibit P-1494, 19 and the T-shirt itself was marked as Exhibit P-1497. 20 On May the 11th counsel for the OPP 21 advised me as follows at pages 15 and 16 of the 22 transcript. 23 "In essence she said that the matter 24 first came to her attention on Tuesday 25 of that week. Neither Mr. Sandler nor
1701 myself nor Commissioner Boniface was 2 aware of it beforehand. An important 3 lesson learned at this Inquiry is that 4 when an apology is appropriate it must 5 be made immediately. 6 Accordingly, Commissioner Boniface has 7 advised me, [meaning Ms. Tuck-Jackson], 8 to apologize at this time to the First 9 Nations Community and to the George 10 Family for what has come to light. 11 Furthermore, she has directed that an 12 investigation into this matter be 13 commenced immediately by the 14 Professional Standards Branch of the 15 OPP. I have been further advised that 16 steps are being taken to commence that 17 investigation this morning. 18 In addition I've been asked to convey 19 that the OPP is shocked and appalled by 20 the existence of these items and that 21 it is unfortunate that they were not 22 captured in the original investigation. 23 As you know Commissioner Boniface is 24 scheduled to testify before this 25 Inquiry in the upcoming weeks and I
1711 anticipate that she will make a formal 2 apology at that time." 3 On May 16th counsel for the OPPA advised 4 Commission Counsel that the individual who originated the 5 second version of a T-shirt marked as Exhibit P-1097 had 6 identified himself. Commission Counsel immediately 7 advised the parties of this information on May 17th, 8 2006, and subsequently disclosed to the parties the name 9 of the individual, Constable William Klym. 10 The parties were informed that Constable 11 Klym would be called as a witness at the Inquiry during 12 the week of June 5th on the issue of the T-shirt. 13 On May 25th, 2006, during the evidence of 14 Sergeant James Irvine Commission Counsel asked the 15 witness about a pin which had on it the TRU Team crest 16 and the badge number of Kenneth Deane. A photograph of 17 the pin was marked as Exhibit P-1606. 18 Sergeant Irvine testified that the pin had 19 been created to support Kenneth Deane on his appeal. On 20 May 27th Sergeant Irvine testified that a T-shirt had 21 been prepared with the words, I support Kenneth Deane, or 22 similar words on it. Counsel for the moving parties 23 requested that I take into account on the motion the 24 existence of this pin and T-shirt. 25 On May 26th, 2006, Commission Counsel was
1721 provided with certain documents from the OPP relating to 2 the pin which will be introduced into evidence. As well, 3 they were advised by Counsel for the OPPA that there 4 existed in the Inquiry database Inquiry Document Number 5 1005375 page 175 a copy of the pin under the heading, The 6 Ken Deane Defence Fund Pin. 7 None of the parties had previously 8 identified this document notwithstanding its production 9 to all parties as part of the Inquiry's disclosure of 10 documents in 2004. 11 Now, I agree with the comments made by 12 Commission Counsel on May the 11th, 2006, and again I 13 quote: 14 "However, the road to healing and 15 reconciliation will not be built if 16 obstacles to that goal of healing and 17 reconciliation are not excavated and 18 the conduct of individuals not examined 19 in the light of day. It is the nature 20 of a public inquiry and the 21 investigation that it involves to bring 22 to light matters that have been 23 previously confidential. It is one (1) 24 of the goals of a public inquiry that 25 the examination of the actions of
1731 individuals will lead to a better 2 understanding and learning so the 3 conduct will not re-occur." 4 As I mentioned above I've heard evidence 5 of the existence of memorabilia arising from the events 6 at Ipperwash Provincial Park. The evidence has disclosed 7 the following forms of memorabilia: T-shirt with a 8 horizontal feather; a mug with an OPP crest on it; one 9 (1) with an arrow through the crest and the other 10 without; a beer can with a feather and OPP tape; a bull's 11 eye and arrow; certain cartoons; and a second version of 12 a T-shirt with the TRU crest and an anvil with the 13 letters "ERT" and a broken arrow between the TRU crest 14 and the anvil. These can be found at Exhibits P-438, P- 15 1494 and P-1497. 16 In my view, the creation of memorabilia, 17 whether racist or not, arising from an incident where 18 someone has died, is inappropriate. Where the 19 memorabilia is insulting and offensive to the community 20 involved, it is even more troubling. 21 As noted above, the person who created the 22 logo and T-shirt depicted in Exhibits 1494 and 1497, has 23 identified himself and will be called as a witness at the 24 Inquiry to explain what he did and why he did it. 25 The overriding question for me, is what
1741 evidence do I need to carry out my mandate. I have the 2 evidence of witnesses on the issue memorabilia as well as 3 the discipline files which revealed the identity of 4 officers who had any involvement with the Ipperwash 5 policing operation between September 4th and 6th, 1995, 6 as well as the complete investigation, analysis and 7 outcome of each of the discipline investigations. 8 In my view with the evidence that I have 9 and the evidence that I will hear from Constable Klym, 10 Commissioner Boniface, former Commissioner O'Grady and 11 perhaps others, I will have sufficient evidence to deal 12 with any issues that arise from the existence of the 13 memorabilia. 14 In my report I intend to deal with the 15 allegations of racist souvenirs and what was done by the 16 OPP in response to these souvenirs as well as to other 17 memorabilia. But in my view, trying to collect all items 18 of memorabilia is not necessary to enable me to undertake 19 an examination of the role if any, that racism had within 20 the OPP on the events surrounding the death of Dudley 21 George or to inform my recommendations directed to the 22 avoidance of violence in similar circumstances. 23 I've said on other occasions, this is not 24 an inquiry into systemic racism in the OPP nor the 25 justice system. As well, this is not an inquiry into the
1751 adequacy of the OPP complaint and discipline processes, 2 nor the investigation carried out by the OPP as outlined 3 in Exhibits 1051, 1052 and 1053. 4 The names that have been redacted from the 5 material are not necessary for me to execute my mandate. 6 Now having said that, I agree with much of 7 what was said by counsel for the moving parties in their 8 oral submissions. I would hope that the Commissioner of 9 the OPP, having expressed her view that she was shocked 10 and appalled by the existence of the second T-shirt, will 11 take measures to ensure that there is a complete and 12 thorough investigation with respect to the T-shirt. 13 Further, I would hope that the 14 Commissioner of the OPP will do whatever she can to 15 ensure that there are no other offensive T-shirts or 16 other memorabilia in existence commemorating the events 17 of September the 6th. 18 And if there are, she will use her best 19 efforts to ensure that they are destroyed and not 20 displayed in any way. While the Kenneth Deane defence 21 fund pin and the "I support Ken Deane" T-shirt may have 22 been in bad taste given the death that gave rise to the 23 charge of criminal negligence, in my view these items do 24 not fall into the same category as the memorabilia that 25 was directly related to the events at Ipperwash on
1761 September the 6th '95. 2 These items are not something that 3 commemorates the events of September 6th at Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park and in any event the OPP response to 5 these items will be dealt with in the evidence that will 6 be called at the Inquiry. 7 And for these reasons the motion is 8 dismissed. 9 That's it, thank you. We can now get on 10 with our next witness. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good afternoon, 15 Commissioner. The Commission calls as its next witness, 16 Sergeant John Slack. 17 18 JOHN RICHARD SLACK, Sworn 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 21 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Slack. 22 A: Good afternoon. 23 Q: You'll note in front you, you have a 24 brief of documents which was provided to you immediately 25 before the Hearing. And Commissioner, I should describe
1771 a little bit about how the brief is set up for this 2 particular witness. 3 At Tab C of this brief you'll note there 4 are twelve (12) numbered tabs. At those tabs they're the 5 transcripts of logger tape calls which were circulated 6 electronically to counsel last week. And after that at 7 Tab E are the remainder of the documents under num -- 8 numbered tab. That's a little bit outside our usual 9 practice so I thought I'd point that out to you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 Thank you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 14 Q: We're just going to start this 15 afternoon, Sergeant Slack, with a brief review of your 16 professional and educational background. If I could turn 17 you to Tab 1 of the documents at Tab E in the brief of 18 documents in front of you? 19 And the document that appears there it's 20 numbered Inquiry Document Number 2005535; is that your 21 Curriculum Vitae, Sergeant Slack? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. If I could enter that 24 document as the next exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1616, Your Honour.
1781 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1616? 2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1616: Document Number 2005535. 5 Resume of John Richard Slack. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 8 Q: And I see on the first page of your 9 CV, Sergeant Slack, that you obtained a Bachelor in Human 10 Kinetics -- or a Bachelor's Degree in Human Kinetics from 11 the University of Windsor in 1976? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And a Bachelor of Education Degree 14 from Queen's University in 1977? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And you also completed two years 17 towards a Bachelor of Commerce Degree at the University 18 of Windsor in 1978? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And that's the extent of your -- 21 that's the considerable extent of your post-secondary 22 education, sir? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: Okay. All right. You also, I see, 25 joined the OPP in 1978 and you were posted to the Glen --
1791 Glencoe Detachment? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you've been posted to detachments 4 throughout southwestern Ontario from 1978 to present? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And you're currently a Sergeant at 7 the Chatham/Kent Detachment? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: September of 1995 I see that you were 10 a Shift Sergeant in Dutton? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Okay. I also see that on the fifth 13 page, the final page of your CV, that you served as a 14 liaison officer in 1995 and 1996 with -- a First Nations 15 liaison officer? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. And that -- that First 18 Nation in question was Chippewa of the Thames? 19 A: Chippewa of the Thames and Muncey 20 Delaware First Nation. 21 Q: And you did that as an officer with 22 the Dutton Glencoe cluster? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: OPP cluster? 25 A: Correct.
1801 Q: Can you describe for us, in summary, 2 your -- your duties as a First Nations Liaison Officer? 3 A: The role was mainly the 4 administrative tasks associated with the First Nations 5 Constables. Anything of an administrative nature; their 6 salary dollars, their overtime, uniforms, and liaising 7 with both the Band Councils on any policing issues. 8 Q: And you performed those duties in 9 relation to that particular role in 1995 and 1996? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. You also served as a 12 member of the Emergency Response Team, or ERT, from 1992 13 to 1999? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: In 1995 you were serving as second in 16 command for District 2 ERT Team? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Okay. I also understand that you 19 received some training as a member of ERT in 1994 in 20 Meaford; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Can you describe for us the -- in 23 brief, the training you received in Meaford? 24 A: I was, as I recall, five (5) weeks 25 dealt with four (4) main areas; search and rescue,
1811 containment, VIP security, the fourth one was -- the 2 fourth one escapes me here for a minute but it will come 3 to me. 4 Q: Crowd control? 5 A: Crowd control. How could I forget? 6 Q: All right. And I see on the second 7 page of your CV there's an extensive list of the training 8 -- the professional courses that you've undergone as a 9 member of the OPP; is that correct? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: All right. I see there that you've 12 listed that you took a First Nations seminar at N'Amerind 13 Centre in 1995. Can you tell us when in 1995 you took 14 that training? 15 A: I don't have the exact date, no, 16 sorry. 17 Q: Okay. As of the summer and September 18 of 1995, by your recollection had you had any formal 19 education or training with respect to First Nations 20 people or policing in First Nations communities? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Is it your recollection that 23 you received the training that's described on page 2 24 there, after September of 1995? 25 A: I can't recall exactly when that was,
1821 sorry. 2 Q: All right. And I also see that you 3 have listed there First Nations sensitivity training in 4 1996? 5 A: Yes. That was -- the building which 6 is now the Petrolia OPP Detachment, at the time I believe 7 was an MNR building, and we took the training there. 8 Q: All right. And in what capacity or 9 role did you receive that training? 10 A: As a member of the ERT Team. 11 Q: All right. And can you tell us 12 briefly what the training entailed? 13 A: I -- I don't remember that exact 14 detail. 15 Q: Okay. And can -- do you have any 16 recollection of what the training you received out of the 17 N'Amerind Centre entailed? 18 A: That was just, as I recall, a half a 19 day seminar, getting to know the people that were running 20 that centre and building some networks with those people, 21 some contacts. 22 Q: Okay. Now, moving on to the events 23 and situation at Ipperwash, I understand that your first 24 professional involvement in the -- in that region and in 25 relation to Camp Ipperwash and Ipperwash Provincial Park,
1831 occurred in the summer of 1995? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Prior to that time, you were, 4 however, familiar with the -- with the area? 5 A: Yes, I was. 6 Q: And how did you come by that 7 familiarity? 8 A: I grew up in Windsor and my family -- 9 as a young child my family vacationed in that area and 10 camped in that area. And as I became a teenager my 11 friends and I would camp in Ipperwash or at Pinery Park. 12 Q: Prior to the summer of 1995, were you 13 aware of any of the issues or concerns surrounding Camp 14 Ipperwash? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And as a member of a -- or a 17 second in command of an ERT team, District 2, were -- did 18 you have any involvement in relation to an incident that 19 occurred at Kettle Point in February of 1995? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. You weren't called out to that 22 incident? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. All right. Turning now to the 25 summer of 1995, at that point you'd already told us that
1841 you were second in command of the District 2 ERT Team? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: First in command was Sergeant Van 4 Damme? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. Can you describe for us 7 what your role was as the second in command? 8 A: It would be to replace the team 9 leader if he was not available, and whatever function he 10 -- he would do. If he was there and I was there I would 11 look after logistic type issues, any administrative type 12 issues. 13 Q: Okay. And you were called out in 14 that capacity on July 29th, 1995? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: In relation to the situation at 17 Ipperwash? 18 A: I didn't know at the time what the 19 situation was. We were called and told to go to 20 Strathroy OPP Detachment. 21 Q: All right. Okay. If I can take you 22 now to Tab 3 of the brief of documents in front of you? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1851 Q: And what you see there appears to be 2 notes from the period encompassing July 29th, 1995 3 through to August 27th, 1995. For the record it's 4 Inquiry Document Number 2005578. 5 Now, if you could just have a brief -- you 6 had the opportunity to review these notes -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- in the brief in front of you? 9 You recognize them as your own? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do these represent the entirety 12 of your notes relating to the situation and your 13 deployment in the Ipperwash area from July -- from the 14 period July 29th to August 27th, 1995? 15 A: Yes. With the one (1) exception of a 16 log tape. 17 Q: Are you referring to the document at 18 Tab 4? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And that document relates 21 to September 5th and 6th, does it not? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. So for the period July 24 29th to August 27th, 1995, just your deployment -- 25 A: Oh. Okay, yes.
1861 Q: -- prior to September 4th? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: The material at Tab 3 represents all 4 of your notes relating to that period? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And if could ask if Inquiry Document 7 Number 2005578 be made the next exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1617, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1617: Document Number 2005578. 11 Handwritten notebook entries 12 of John Slack, July 29-31, 13 August 11-14, August 23-27, 14 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Thank you. And on the first page of 18 those documents, I see -- are those your notes from your 19 deployment on July 29th, 1995? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And you also have your 22 original notebooks in front of you? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: All right. You were deployed and you 25 went on standby at the Strathroy Detachment?
1871 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Were you told why you -- why you'd 3 been called out at that point? 4 A: I don't remember being told why. 5 Q: Okay. And beyond attending at the 6 Strathroy Detachment, did you do anything else as a 7 result of that callout? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. It appears from your notes 10 that your next involvement was on August 10th, 1995 -- or 11 August 11th? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: The second page of the document at 16 Tab 3 with page, I believe 73 of your notes. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Now correct if I'm wrong, Sergeant 19 Slack, but it appears that you were preparing to attend 20 as an ERT leader the following day, on August 10th, 1995; 21 is that correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And that on August the 11th, 1995 you 24 attended at Pinery Park and you were briefed by Detective 25 Staff Sergeant Mark Wright.
1881 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And instructed to patrol the area of 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Okay. And from your notes it appears 6 that you did that on August 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th, 7 1995. 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Turning first to August the 11th, 10 1995, your notes from that date appear at pages 73 -- oh, 11 I'm sorry, 74 and 75 of that notebook. Sorry, and onto 12 page 76, it would appear. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: You were on shift earlier in the day, 15 it appears, and went off duty at 15:00 hours, after 16 patrolling in the area of the Park, observing a vehicle, 17 and then returning to the meeting centre at the Pinery at 18 13:50 hours; is that correct? 19 A: 13:40. 20 Q: 13:40, thank you. You then went off 21 duty at 15:00 hours and went back on duty at 19:00 hours. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And I see from your notes that 24 shortly thereafter you were involved in the arrest and 25 detention of a person by the name of Kevin Simon?
1891 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that, 3 how that came about? Or how your involvement in that 4 came about? 5 A: At 20:25 I was driving through 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park, driving slowly through the 7 Park. I was advised -- I was told by a person walking in 8 the Park that a male person had been wrestling with P/C 9 Horzempa and P/C Hall and had gotten away. 10 I observed a male between myself and the 11 lake in an open area. He had dark hair, white shorts and 12 he was running on the west side of the crik (phonetic). 13 I yelled at the male, asked him to stop. 14 He continued running. Ran across the creek. Ran along 15 the shoreline past the east point. At the same time 16 there was an MNR or a park employee officer or staff 17 member who was also chasing this person and had cut this 18 person off forcing this male to -- to run south or away 19 from the lake. 20 I got out of my car. I began running 21 after the male shouting at the male to stop. In the 22 middle -- somewhere in the field not far from the -- the 23 police car I took the male into custody. 24 We brought him back to the roadway. By 25 this time P/C Horzempa and Hall had arrived at that
1901 location. The male was turned over to PC Horzempa and 2 Hall. He was handcuffed to the rear, his hands behind 3 his back, and he was placed in a cruiser. 4 P/C Horzempa and Hall and I had some 5 conversation and then I basically left it to them to 6 continue their investigation. 7 Q: And at any point, either during your 8 observations -- direct observation of the male or during 9 your conversations with Constables Horzempa and Hall did 10 you learn anything about the reason for the pursuit of 11 the young man or for his arrest? 12 A: The -- Horzempa and Hall, one of them 13 or both of them, felt there was a warrant to arrest this 14 individual. 15 Q: And did they tell you why they 16 thought that? 17 A: There was an incident had happened 18 sometime before that dealing with, I believe, a stolen 19 vehicle that somehow they were involved in that 20 investigation and they felt there was a warrant to arrest 21 flowed from that investigation. 22 Q: And did you have any conversations 23 with Constables Horzempa and Hall about the 24 identification of this person? 25 A: Yes, I did. They had run the
1911 individual on the CPIC system and they didn't get a hit; 2 it didn't come back. So I said to make sure -- I wanted 3 to make sure who he was because he had verbally 4 identified himself, he had no documents, that they might 5 get the assistance of a First Nations Constable from 6 Kettle Point to help them positively identify who that 7 male was. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know whether and 9 what they did as a result of that advice that you gave 10 them? 11 A: At that point I left. Left it up to 12 them to carry on with that investigation. 13 Q: All right. And you mentioned, I'm 14 sorry if you told us already, did you -- had -- were they 15 still at the scene at the park when you left them or did 16 you see them? 17 A: Yes, they were still at the park when 18 I left. 19 Q: Okay. And at approximately what time 20 did you leave them? 21 A: I don't have an exact time but just 22 shortly after the male was turned over to them. 23 Q: Okay. Do you have any recollection 24 or note of what the person was wearing? 25 A: White shorts.
1921 Q: All right. Was he wearing a shirt? 2 A: I -- I don't remember. 3 Q: Do you remember if he was wearing 4 shoes? 5 A: I -- I don't remember. 6 Q: Okay. All right. We have heard from 7 -- from Mr. Simon, and he testified earlier at this 8 Inquiry, he described being surrounded by a circle or 9 semi-circle of officers who eventually tackled and, to 10 use a colloquial term, dog-piled on him and that's how he 11 described his arrest as coming about. 12 Does that accord with your recollection? 13 A: I don't remember that. 14 Q: Okay. All Right. And did you have 15 any direct -- can you describe in any more detail, if you 16 can recall, your direct physical contact with Mr. Simon? 17 A: As I remember, I was running, caught 18 up to him, took hold -- control of him, and marched him 19 back to the roadway. 20 Q: And how did you take control of him? 21 A: Wrapped my arms around him like in, 22 kind of like in a bear hug to control him, and then when 23 I was satisfied he wasn't going to run anymore it was a 24 one (1) arm control. 25 Q: Okay. And did you have any
1931 conversations with Mr. Simon directly? 2 A: Not that I can remember now. 3 Q: And do you know what Constables 4 Horzempa and Hall did with Mr. Simon after -- after you 5 left them? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And did anything else of significance 12 happen on August 11th during your patrols of the area? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And on reviewing your notes 15 from the 12th, 13th, and 14th it would appear you engaged 16 in patrols of the area, observed vehicles, people, 17 campers, in the area. 18 Is that a fair summary of your activities 19 for those three (3) days? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did anything else of significance 22 occur those three (3) days that you can recall or that 23 you see noted in your notes? 24 A: On the 12th of August I came across 25 several youths trying to remove some wooden posts from
1941 the beach area for a bonfire. Spoke to those males and 2 asked them to cease from that activity which they did. 3 Checked on a report of a Narcotic Control Act violation 4 on one (1) of the campsites; checked that out. It proved 5 to be unfounded. 6 That was about it for the 12th. We left 7 the Park at 2:30 in the morning to help a Forest unit at 8 a noisy party in Port Franks. The 13th there was no 9 significant events and 14th there was no significant 10 events. 11 Q: All right. Thank you, Sergeant 12 Slack. Your next involvement it would appear took place 13 on August 23rd, 1995. I'm sorry, I can't make out the 14 page number on your -- on the copy I have of your 15 notebook. 16 A: Page 83. 17 Q: Page 83. And it would appear that 18 you were then deployed in the area as an ERT member on 19 August 23rd, 24th, 25th, and 26th; is that correct? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And you appear to be setting up duty 25 schedules for your team and patrolling the area of the
1951 Park yourself as well as the surrounding area; is that 2 fair? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And apart from these activities from 5 your notes or from your direct recollection did anything 6 -- was there anything else of significance that occurred 7 during this period? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Your next involvement in the 10 situation at Ipperwash was on September 4th, 1995; is 11 that correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And your notes from that period -- or 14 from that date appear at Tab 10 of the brief of documents 15 in front of you. If you could just turn to Tab 10. I 16 have a couple of questions about that document. it's 17 Inquiry Document Number 2003876 for the record. 18 First of all you'll see that I've hand 19 numbered in the upper right-hand corner the pages from -- 20 running from page 1 to 29 -- 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: -- of that document. And pages 8 23 through 29, if you could just have a brief look. 24 Do you recognize -- recognize those as 25 copies of your handwritten or officers notebook notes
1961 from the period September 4th through October 12th, 1995? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: The September 12th is on page 17 6 here. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Numbered page 17, that where that 9 ends. But there's notes that continue on past that. 10 Q: Oh, October 12th, 1995. 11 A: October 12th. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Yes that ends on page 29. 14 Q: Thank you. And do these represent 15 the entirety of your handwritten notes relating to your 16 deployment in the Ipperwash area from that period, 17 September 4th through October 12th, 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: With the exception that you noted 20 earlier of the document that appears at Tab 4 which will 21 be -- I'll be taking to you in a little while? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Okay. If -- if the document -- one 24 (1) moment. There's also a typewritten portion that 25 appears at pages 1 through 7, of that document.
1971 Do you recognize that portion of the 2 document? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And can you tell us the 5 occasion for it having been prepared and what it is? 6 A: That's a document that I typed based 7 on my notes that I was asked to provide to the Ipperwash 8 investigation. 9 Q: Okay. And do you remember when you 10 did that? 11 A: It was sometime later after the 12 investigation, like years after the -- after the event. 13 Q: Years after 1995? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you know if you did it in 16 relation to an SIU investigation or some other 17 investigation; there have been several? 18 A: No it was a result of the OPP, 19 Ipperwash investigation they requested it. 20 Q: Thank you. And if I could ask if the 21 document at Tab 10 could be entered as the next Exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1618, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1618: Document Number 2003876. 25 Statement (typed) Sgt. John
1981 R. Slack - Typed and 2 handwritten notebook entries 3 from September 01 to October 4 12, 1995. 5 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And if I could ask 7 that there's a -- on page 8 of that document, the first 8 page of Sergeant Slack's handwritten notes, there's a 9 name at the top that should be redacted, listed at 13:35 10 hours, if I could ask the Registrar... 11 THE REGISTRAR: What time was that again, 12 please? 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 13:35 hours. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: Okay. Now, turning now to September 17 4th, 1995 you were again called out to the Ipperwash 18 area? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Okay. And tell us if you will what 21 happened or what you did as a result of that callout? 22 A: I was called out at 21:35 hours by 23 Sergeant Wells who was a Comm -- London Comm Centre 24 Sergeant. At 23:10 hours I arrived at Forest Detachment 25 and awaited assignment at that location. At 02:00
1991 hours -- 2 Q: I'm sorry if I could just stop you 3 Sergeant Slack. I'm going to butt in periodically just 4 to ask you questions about -- about what you're telling 5 us. 6 Do you recall what you were told by 7 Sergeant Wells about the reason for your callout? 8 A: I don't remember that. 9 Q: Okay. Do you recall on your 10 attendance at the Forest Detachment whether you were 11 briefed? 12 A: I don't remember. 13 Q: Okay. So you don't recall what you 14 were told about the situation? 15 A: I don't, no. 16 Q: Thanks. And what did you understand 17 the reason for your presence to be in the area? 18 A: I just -- I don't remember, 19 checkpoints, patrolling like -- setting up checkpoints in 20 the area. 21 Q: Were you aware at that point that 22 First Nations people occupying Camp Ipperwash had also 23 occupied Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: Okay. That -- Yes, that had 25 happened.
2001 Q: Okay. Do you recall how you learned 2 that? 3 A: It was probably at the briefings. 4 Q: All right. All right. And if you 5 could continue. 6 A: At 02:00 hours I deployed to 7 supervise the checkpoints that had been set up in and 8 around Ipperwash Provincial Park. 9 Q: Okay. And -- 10 A: Nothing of consequence happened and 11 at 8:30 I returned to Forest. 12 Q: And can you tell us what supervising 13 the checkpoints involved? 14 A: Going around make sure they had 15 whatever supplies they needed, flashlight batteries, 16 water, make sure they were -- the checkpoint were staffed 17 as they were intended to be staffed. 18 Q: Okay. And was it Members of District 19 2 ERT Team that were staffing the checkpoints? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you'd noted that nothing of any 22 significance or unusual happened for the rest of the 23 evening? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: You went off duty at 10:15 the
2011 following morning? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Your notes indicate that you returned 4 to duty at 18:00 hours on the evening of September 5th, 5 1995? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: What did you do at that point? 8 A: At 18:00 hours we proceeded to 9 Forrest. 18:30 we were given a shift briefing and I 10 assigned different pairings with the officers. 11 Q: Do you -- do you recall what 12 information you received at that shift briefing? 13 A: No, I don't. At 19:16 hours I 14 relieved Sergeant McLean at the Tactical Operations 15 Centre, the forward TOC, as call sign Lima 2. 16 Q: All right. And if I could take you 17 now to the document at Tab 4 of the brief of documents in 18 front of you. You'll find there Inquiry Document Number 19 3000380 which has already been entered as -- at these 20 proceedings as Exhibit P-317. 21 Now, having reviewed all of that document, 22 first of all, do you recognize either of the documents in 23 the first two (2) pages of the material at Tab 4? 24 A: I don't recognize the first page. 25 The second page would appear to be a map.
2021 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And then the third -- 3 Q: But do you recognize that map or know 4 anything about its origins? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And then from the third page on is 8 log sheets. 9 Q: Okay. And do you recognize -- well, 10 first of all, log sheets in relation to what? 11 A: Log sheets were how radio 12 transmissions in the days when I first joined the OPP 13 were kept. There was no electronic recording of radio 14 transmissions so we used log sheets similar to this. 15 And this, obviously, had been adopted and 16 set up at the forward TOC to keep who was ever reporting 17 there up to -- up to speed on events that preceded them. 18 Q: All right. And do you recognize any 19 of the entries in this handwritten document as your own? 20 A: Well, several pages in -- I'm not 21 sure how these pages are numbered. 22 Q: I do see that there are numbers on 23 some of the pages at the bottom right-hand corner? 24 A: There's a number cir -- five (5) and 25 it's circled.
2031 Q: And for the record and for counsel's 2 ease of reference, the front or the page number in 3 supertext is 989, it would appear. And what do you see 4 there, Sergeant Slack? 5 A: At 19:16 is when I took -- or I 6 relieved Sergeant McLean at the Tactical Operations 7 Centre. And at 19:16 in the log I went through a series 8 of calling the cars that were on patrol and checking on 9 their status. 10 Q: Okay. And if we could just set out, 11 of the remaining pages of that document, so that's the 12 first place in the document that you recognize your own - 13 - your own entries -- 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: -- at 19:16? And how far does your - 16 - the portion that you would be responsible for go in the 17 document? 18 A: It goes until page 000991 at 07:16 19 hours. 20 Q: Okay. Where it's noted: 21 "Sign off Sergeant Slack." 22 Is that -- 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. And now these are -- this is 25 not a document that you produced to your counsel or to
2041 the Inquiry? 2 A: I didn't have this document. 3 Q: Right. And do you know after 4 seventeen (17) -- or 07:16 what happened -- and your last 5 entry here, what happened to this document? 6 A: The document would have been left in 7 the TOC for the next Sergeant who was relieving me. 8 Q: Okay. And is that the last time you 9 saw it, as far as you can recall? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. We have also heard from a 12 previous witness at the Inquiry, Mr. Ben Pouget, that 13 this document was found at the TOC by First Nations 14 occupiers. 15 Were you aware that this document had been 16 found in the TOC by them? 17 A: I -- I didn't know what happened to 18 the document. 19 Q: All right. Okay. Just to return 20 then to the evening of September 5th, 1995, you noted 21 that at 7:16 you had some communications with units in 22 your ERT team. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Amounting to radio checks. 25 A: That's correct.
2051 Q: And what else can you recall 2 happening that evening? First of all, perhaps I should 3 ask: Do you have any independent recollection of that 4 particular evening and your activities that evening? 5 A: Say that again, sorry. 6 Q: Do you have any independent 7 recollection, apart from your notes and the material that 8 you have in front of you, of -- direct recollection of 9 what -- your activities and observations that evening? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. So could you tell us what you 12 can recall from that evening, before we go to your notes 13 and -- and the other documents? 14 A: I was stationed in the forward TOC. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: That was my post for the night. 17 Didn't leave the forward TOC. We had some activity, some 18 concern about an access route to Ipperwash Provincial 19 Park along the beach. 20 We had a report of some fires being set, 21 had a radio report of officer reporting some gunshots, 22 sound of some gunshots. We had some cruisers damaged by 23 rocks being thrown at them and some damage to cruisers. 24 And being a Sergeant in the OPP, it's my 25 responsibility to do documents to get cars fixed, which
2061 is an administrative function. So those cars -- I asked 2 two (2) of those cars to come back to my location so that 3 I could physically see the damage to the cars for the 4 reports. 5 There was a report of some youths 6 gathering at the corner of East Parkway Road and Army 7 Camp Road. And cars were dispatched to check on that, 8 which precipitated the damage being caused to the cars. 9 And after that, things quieted down for 10 the remainder of the shift. 11 Q: All right. Just to take you back to 12 some -- to your notes and some of the documents that 13 relate to the activities you described. 14 If I could take you to the transcript that 15 appears in the front half of your binder at Region 1 -- 16 or Tab 1, Commissioner. For counsel's reference, this is 17 the transcript that was circulated, named Region 1. 18 We see there a transcript produced by this 19 Commission of a tape, logger tape, which I'm not going to 20 play for this call. Time beginning at 19:55 hours on 21 Sept -- the evening of September 5th, 1995. 22 It appears to be a conversation between 23 you and Wayde Jacklin and you appear to be discussing a 24 concern that a chain has been taken down at the end of 25 Ipperwash Road permitting, potentially, access from
2071 Kettle Point directly to the Army Camp or Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park. 3 Is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Can you recall having a conversation 6 like that with Mr. Jacklin? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what did you do as a result? 9 A: I asked, I believe it was Sergeant 10 Graham, to go down there and check that. 11 Q: Okay. And if I could ask if that 12 transcript could be marked as the next exhibit at Region 13 1. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1619, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1619: Transcript of Region 1, 17 Jacklin, Slack, Peter Japp, 18 Unknown Male, September 19 05,1995, 19:55 hrs, Mobile 20 Command Unit: From OPP logger 21 tape number 2, Track 1, Disc 22 1 of 3. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 25 Q: Okay. And what did they learn?
2081 A: Apparently, the chain was down and 2 access was available at that point from Ipperwash -- 3 Ipperwash Road to the beach. 4 Q: And do you see that noted in the -- 5 in the logger -- or the radio log that you have in front 6 of you? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: There's a note at 20:05, Unit 2412 11 was dispatched to go check that. 12 Q: Okay. And what did you do as a 13 result -- or what did they report back to you as a result 14 of that? 15 A: That there was access there. 16 Q: And what did you do as a result? 17 A: Suggested that perhaps a checkpoint 18 be set up there. 19 Q: Okay. If I could take you to the -- 20 the transcript that appears at Tab 2 of the transcripts 21 at the front of your -- your brief of documents? It 22 appears again to be a conversation between yourself and 23 Wayde Jacklin. 24 And at page 1 you report: 25 "At the end of Ipperwash Road and the
2091 beach they're using -- we should 2 probably establish a checkpoint at the 3 paved road where it goes into the sandy 4 beach area -- or the sand beach area." 5 Do you see that? 6 A: The bottom of the page there's 1 of 7 1, 2 of -- 1 of 3, 2 of 3, and 3 of 3; am I in the 8 right... 9 Q: If you see your -- the initials "JS": 10 "The chain is down. It looks like 11 they're using -- they're coming along 12 the paved road and then turning north 13 onto the beach." 14 I'm sorry, the part I was referring to was 15 above there. It says -- it's about a third of the way 16 down the page: 17 "JS: And the beach, they're using 18 that. We should probably establish a 19 checkpoint at the paved road where it 20 goes into the sand beach area." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: No, I must be on the wrong page here. 23 Q: Page 1 of 3. 24 A: Sorry, wrong -- wrong page. The 25 middle of the page:
2101 "And the beach, they're using that. We 2 should probably establish a 3 checkpoint." 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall having that 5 conversation -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- with Wayde Jacklin? And do you 8 know if a checkpoint was indeed established at that 9 location? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: Okay. I also see, if we can return 12 to your notes -- oh, if the -- if the transcript Region 2 13 could be marked as the next exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: What is the time of that 15 please, Ms. Hensel? 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I'm sorry, it's 17 20:15 hours. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1620, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1620. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1620: Transcript of Region 2, John 22 Slack, Wayde Jacklin, 23 September 05, 1995, 20:15 24 hrs, Mobile Command Unit; 25 from OPP Logger tape number
2111 2, Track 1, Disc 1 of 3. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Okay. And if we could return to your 5 -- your handwritten notes, you see there at 20:52 hours? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: As you'd indicated, a report of fires 8 being set? 9 A: That was a radio transmission from 24 10 -- Unit 2421 -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- advising of fires in that -- that 13 area. 14 Q: Okay. And did you do anything as a 15 result of that report? 16 A: That -- that information would have 17 been forwarded to the Command Post. 18 Q: Okay. And you'd indicated earlier 19 that you had instructed officers to go down closer to 20 that -- that corner to check things out. Was that report 21 by the officers that you'd sent to that location? 22 Or did it occur prior to it? 23 A: I think it -- I think, if I 24 understand your question, it occurred after. 25 Q: Okay.
2121 A: Unless I didn't understand -- 2 Q: Were the officers calling in the 3 report of fires being set, were they the officers that 4 you sent down to check things out? 5 Or were they -- that was different 6 officers? 7 A: No, that -- they would have been 8 different or the -- the floating cars. 9 Q: Okay. And what did you do next? 10 A: It's clipped off on my copy of this 11 but it would have been at... 12 Q: And by this you -- you're referring 13 to the -- 14 A: The photo -- 15 Q: -- document at Tab 4? 16 A: Yes, it's -- 17 Q: Exhibit P-317? 18 A: The photocopy is incomplete on left- 19 hand side, but it would have been 22:03 hours, according 20 to this document: 21 "22:04 hours, 2413 was dispatched to 22 patrol the area of East Parkway and 23 Army Camp Road." 24 Q: Okay. So they were dispatched. And 25 did you receive any further information from them, prior
2131 to their return to the TOC? 2 A: At 22:22: 3 "Unit 2412 reports activity in front of 4 the main gate of the Park. Ten (10) to 5 twelve (12) persons standing around 6 that area." 7 At 22:30: 8 "Unit 2412 requested [it looks like it 9 was] backup at the parking lot at Army 10 Camp Road and East Parkway." 11 Q: And did you do anything as a result 12 of that request? 13 A: And at 22:32: 14 "Sergeant Graham was dispatched to that 15 parking lot area at the corner of Army 16 Camp and East Parkway." 17 Q: What happened next? 18 A: Next: 19 "Unit 2423 is dispatched to the parking 20 lot at Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 21 22 At 22:38: 23 "Unit 2413 reported on the radio of 24 rocks being thrown." 25 Nothing had been hit at that time.
2141 At 22:42: 2 "Unit 2421 advised by radio that the 3 windshield -- their windshield had been 4 smashed. 5 At 22:43: 6 "Unit 2422 reported a windshield had 7 been damaged." 8 Shortly after that in the same minute, 9 2243: 10 "2412 reported that the windshield had 11 been damaged and the front end had been 12 damaged by rocks being thrown at them." 13 Q: Okay. And I also see it reflected in 14 your notes that the units 2513 and 2563 -- I'm sorry. 15 A: It's confusing because the -- the car 16 numbers and the call signs look the same. The 2413, the 17 2421, those are call signs. We were in -- we had cars 18 from the old Number 2 District. All 2 District cars were 19 prefaced with a "2" and then a three (3) digit number 20 following that to identify the specific car. 21 In my notes, 2513 is a specific car, not a 22 call sign. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: So the damage occurred to units -- 25 the cars -- car numbers 2513 and 2563 were the two (2)
2151 cars that I saw. 2 Q: All right. And they returned to the 3 TOC. I'm sorry, is -- is it recorded in your notes or do 4 you recall what time they returned to the TOC? 5 A: I don't have an exact time but they 6 came back shortly after being damaged. 7 Q: Okay. And you'd mentioned earlier 8 that it was one of your responsibilities to see to the 9 repair of the -- those -- the damage to those units? 10 A: To see to the reporting -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- the administrative reporting on 13 the damage to the vehicles. 14 Q: Okay. Turning now to Region 3, the 15 transcript at Tab 3 of the front of your brief of 16 documents. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: What appears there is a Commission 21 produced transcript of a call that took place at 22:44 22 hours between yourself again and Wayde Jacklin. In that 23 call you appear to be reporting to Jacklin the results of 24 the officers attending at the corner of East Parkway 25 Drive and Army Camp Road.
2161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you report -- they've got a 4 couple -- at page 1: 5 "They've got a couple of fires going 6 down there. They've got some picnic 7 tables out there, cars are getting hit 8 on the windshields with rocks." 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Do you see that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you recall having this 13 conversation with Wayde Jacklin? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And then at page 2, you report 16 that: 17 "We don't have a checkpoint down there, 18 per se. We had some people go down 19 there to check out what was going on." 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And then at page 3, Jacklin reports 22 that: 23 "The inspectors here, we're just 24 trying, you know, to figure out what 25 was going on because I knew that one
2171 checkpoint wasn't at that corner 2 anymore -- well it hadn't been last 3 night." 4 So he appears to be asking why Officers 5 are at the corner; is that correct? 6 A: He's trying to figure out if there 7 was a checkpoint there, because there hadn't been one the 8 previous night. 9 Q: Right. And you respond: 10 "They just went down there to check out 11 all..." 12 Just one moment. 13 You respond: 14 "That they just went down there to 15 check things out and got pelted with 16 rocks." 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: He then confirms with you that the 19 Officers have moved out of the immediate area and you 20 confirm that they have? 21 A: That's correct. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And if we could 23 mark that transcript at Region 3, that's a logger tape 24 call transcript at 22:44 hours, September -- the evening 25 of September 5th, 1995 as the next Exhibit.
2181 THE REGISTRAR: P-1621 Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1621: Transcript of Region 03, John 4 Slack, Wayde Jacklin, 5 September 05, 1995, 22:44 6 hrs, Mobile Command Unit: 7 From OPP Logger tape number 8 2, Track 3 , Disc 1 of 3. 9 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And I might add 11 for the record, as Mr. Miller has pointed out, that all 12 of the time at the beginning of these calls should have 13 seven (7) minutes added to them. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: If we could return to your notes 17 Sergeant Slack. A moments indulgence. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: You have noted there that you 22 received a report of gunfire heard from inside the army 23 camp at 23:43 hours. That would be in your Officer's 24 notes, I believe, Sergeant Slack? 25 A: Yeah, they're in both, at 23:43.
2191 Q: And when you say both, you're 2 referring to both your notes from that day as well the 3 radio log that we'd identified as Exhibit P-317? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Do you recall what you were told as a 6 result of that report, or during that report? 7 A: The unit, soft ID 2414, radioed to 8 the TOC and he was reporting that he had heard gunfire 9 coming from well within that location, that property. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: And he felt it was between fifty (50) 12 and a hundred (100) rounds that he'd heard. And he 13 described it as possibly automatic gunfire. 14 Q: Okay. And which Officer corresponds 15 with call number 24:14? 16 A: I believe it was PC Parks. 17 Q: Okay. Did you receive any other 18 reports from Officers about the sound of gunfire coming 19 from inside the army camp? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And do you recall what you did 22 with the information that you'd received from P/C Parks? 23 A: Report it to the Command Post. 24 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what you 25 did next or what happened next?
2201 A: From that point on for the rest of 2 the duration of the shift it was quiet. There were some 3 status checks done on the cars that were on patrol or at 4 checkpoints throughout the night and at 07:16 I signed 5 off. 6 Q: And I also note that you appear to 7 have attended at the Forest Detachment for a debriefing 8 at that point? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Can you describe that debriefing to 11 us? 12 A: No, I don't have any recollection of 13 that. 14 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 15 A: We were held at the Forest Detachment 16 until about eight o'clock in the morning, then we 17 returned to the forward TOC to assist with the removal of 18 debris from the corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 19 Drive. 20 Q: Okay. And what officers were -- gave 21 you the direction to do that if you can recall? Which 22 officers? 23 A: To attend at the forward TOC, I don't 24 recall. 25 Q: And do you recall any officers
2211 telling you what to do, giving you direction as to what 2 you should be doing once you got there? 3 A: At -- at the forward TOC we were 4 briefed by Sergeant Graham and he gave us instructions as 5 to what we were going to remove from the corner and 6 instructions that if we found anyone lingering there that 7 a possible charge could be obstruction and/or trespassing 8 should they be found committing either one of those 9 violations. 10 Q: All right. And what did you do as a 11 result of those instructions? 12 A: Well, those instructions were 13 followed on by another briefing by Sergeant Richardson at 14 8:27 and again his instructions were if we found anyone 15 committing an offence of mischief at the corner they 16 were to be arrested but our rules of engagement we were 17 not to go beyond the -- we were not to chase anyone into 18 the Provincial Park to effect an arrest. 19 Q: Okay. What did -- what happened 20 next? 21 A: The Number 2 ERT Team was detailed to 22 physically go down to the corner with the assistance from 23 the Number 1 District ERT Team and remove picnic tables 24 that were found at that intersection of East Parkway and 25 Army Camp Road. There was one (1) tent in that parking
2221 lot that was removed and put on a flatbed trailer. No 2 individuals were found there lingering and we were to 3 return. 4 Q: Did -- did you see or observe anyone 5 there other than officers on your arrival there? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And did you participate in the 8 removal of the picnic tables yourself? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And in moving them onto the 11 flatbed? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 14 A: Once that detail was done and the -- 15 the tables and the other items were loaded onto the 16 flatbed trailer we returned to Forest Detachment and then 17 we were relieved at ten o'clock that morning. 18 Q: Okay. And you returned to duty at 19 16:00 hours? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Okay. And you spent the intervening 22 time at the Pinery; is that correct? Pinery Provincial 23 Park? 24 A: Intervening time when -- 25 Q: Between 10:00 hours when you went off
2231 duty and 16:00 hours? 2 A: I believe we were billeted at that 3 time at the Pinedale in Grand Bend. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. I'm 5 wondering, Commissioner, if this might be a good time to 6 take a break? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 8 We'll take a break now. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 3:25 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 3:42 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 19 Q: Welcome back, Sergeant Slack. 20 A: Thank you. 21 Q: Returning now to the afternoon and 22 evening of September 6th. It would appear from your 23 notes that you returned to duty at 16:00 hours. What 24 were you doing at that point? 25 A: That was a detail separate from
2241 Ipperwash that I had been tasked with dealing with the 2 reorganization of a district system in the OPP. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: That was a reorganization project and 5 I was doing some reports for that project. 6 Q: Okay. And what was your next 7 involvement with -- with the Ipperwash operation? 8 A: At 18:00 hours I attended for a 9 briefing at the Forest Detachment. 10 Q: What was the content of that 11 briefing? 12 A: At 18:36, received a briefing by 13 Sergeant Korosec and he outlined a number of points which 14 I have noted in my notebook. 15 Q: What were those points? 16 A: The first point was a map of the 17 residence where the Mayor of Bosanquet Township lived. 18 He advised -- point number 2, he advised that the OC -- 19 Oleo Capsicum spray fogger was to be deployed at 20 Checkpoint 'C'. 21 Q: Could I -- could I just stop you 22 there and take you back to your first point, providing a 23 map showing the residence of the Mayor of Bosanquet. 24 Do you recall why that was provided to 25 you?
2251 A: Just as his importance as in a 2 political position in Bosanquet Township. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall any concern 4 being expressed for the Mayor's safety? 5 A: I don't at this time, no. 6 Q: Okay. Sorry to interrupt. Please 7 continue. 8 A: Point number 3, the radio channel 9 that we'd be working on that night was a TAC channel. 10 And because of radio communication issues, only one (1) 11 repeater was to be on at Checkpoint Delta. 12 Point number 4, requested that we not give 13 out, over the radio, the Command Post phone number. 14 Q: Do you recall why that request was 15 made or do you know? 16 A: Radio channel was being -- probably 17 being monitored and he didn't want that phone number to 18 become public knowledge. 19 Point number 5, any incidents that 20 occurred with drawn weapons were to be advised up the 21 chain of command. 22 Point number 6, he advised us that a K-9 23 unit would be deployed to the TOC on a 24 hour basis. 24 Point number 7, if we had any court we 25 were expected to cancel the court for the next week.
2261 Number 8, a hard telephone, a hard wired 2 telephone had been installed at the forward TOC. 3 Point number 9, was information had been 4 received that a sawed off shotgun was in the batmobile. 5 Point number 10, Lima 1 was to add an 6 ONPAC -- any ONPAC incidents. 7 Point number 11, was information that 8 small arms fire had been reported at the end of Matheson 9 Drive. 10 And point number 12, an Oscar team was 11 being deployed to check out point number 11. 12 Point number 13, for the following morning 13 operations we were advised to stay at the checkpoints 14 until the operation was ready to go. 15 Q: I'm going to take you back to a 16 couple of those points. First of all, point 9, a sawed 17 off shotgun, you had noted was -- or in batmobile. 18 First of all, do you know what the 19 batmobile -- do you recall what the batmobile referred 20 to? 21 A: It was a vehicle that was being 22 driven around on the Army Base, in that vicinity, was 23 inside the army base that got the nickname the batmobile. 24 Q: Okay. And you had some familiarity 25 with that by sight with that vehicle?
2271 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall if you 3 learned at that briefing where information came -- where 4 the information came from, that there was a sawed off 5 shotgun? 6 A: I don't remember where that 7 information came from. 8 Q: And do you recall whether this was 9 presented to you as a possibility or a certainty or...? 10 A: It was presented as information we 11 should be aware of. 12 Q: Okay. Similarly with respect to the 13 report of small arms fire at Matheson Drive, did you 14 receive any information as to where that information had 15 come from? 16 A: Not that I recall, no. 17 Q: Okay. All right. And do you have 18 any other -- any other independent recollection in 19 addition to what appears in your notes as to information 20 you received at that briefing? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And what did you do next? 23 A: After the briefing units were 24 dispatched, assigned and dispatched to their checkpoints. 25 I did another little bit of work on my other project, my
2281 reorganization project. And at 20:11 hours Sergeant 2 Grant advised me an incident had occurred on Army Camp 3 Road and I proceeded to Checkpoint Delta. 4 Q: Where was Checkpoint Delta located at 5 that time? 6 A: Checkpoint Delta when I arrived was 7 located on Army Camp Road at the main entrance to 8 Canadian Forces Base, Ipperwash. 9 Q: Was it opposite the main entrance? 10 A: On the roadway by the entrance to the 11 Army base. 12 Q: Okay. Did Sergeant Grant advise you 13 what had happened? 14 A: I don't recall at this time if -- 15 what information he gave me. 16 Q: We have heard from other witnesses 17 that there was a report -- or that a civilian vehicle had 18 been attacked at that time; other Officers received 19 information to that effect. 20 Do you recall ever getting -- obtaining 21 that information that evening? 22 A: I can't remember when I got that 23 information. 24 Q: Okay. So you proceeded to Checkpoint 25 Delta?
2291 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And that was as a result of the 3 information provided to you by Sergeant Grant? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 6 A: It was still daylight hours at 20:40 7 hours. I took up a position with the other Officers at 8 Delta. There wasn't a lot of vehicles coming through our 9 Checkpoint. 10 As darkness descended and the overhead 11 streetlights came on and activities at the corner of East 12 Parkway and Army Camp were getting more -- were 13 intensifying, we were instructed to move further north on 14 Army Camp Road, to move that checkpoint a little further 15 north on Army Camp Road. 16 Q: Okay. And when you say 17 "intensifying", did you receive information that would 18 lead you to say now that activity was intensifying at 19 that point? 20 A: Well there was radio chatter and... 21 Q: Okay. And what did the radio chatter 22 say? 23 A: I don't have a specific recollection 24 right now. 25 Q: Okay. So you -- so you moved the
2301 checkpoint north? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Where did you move it to? 4 A: It was approximately 200 metres north 5 of the main entrance to CFB Ipperwash. 6 Q: And I wonder if this might be a good 7 moment -- we do have a map or an overhead photo for you 8 to be able to identify the location, as best you can from 9 an overhead photo. Just one (1) moment, please. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: If you can -- can you -- can you make 14 that out, Sergeant Slack? Can you see from there? If 15 you'd like you can stand up. There's a hand-held mic you 16 can use. 17 A: No, that's fine, I can see it. 18 Q: Okay. And there's also a laser 19 pointer on the desk in front of you. And if you could 20 point out, there's already points marked there, but as -- 21 as best as you can recall, where you moved the checkpoint 22 from and to, at the point you're describing on the 23 evening of September 6th? 24 A: I can't tell if this is -- because of 25 this -- this Checkpoint Delta, whether this is the actual
2311 entrance to the Army Camp. Has that been established? 2 Q: I believe so. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The entrance is -- the 4 entrance to the Army Camp is at approximately where the 5 'C' is. 6 THE WITNESS: Right about there? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Okay. And it's your recollection 11 that the checkpoint was initially set up directly where 12 the -- where the entrance was? 13 A: That's my recollection. 14 Q: Okay. And where did you move it? 15 A: We moved it further north on this 16 road in this vicinity, but there -- it was beyond where 17 the buildings ended, the structures that had formed the-- 18 Q: The built-up area? 19 A: -- the built-up area of -- of the 20 Army Camp. Then it went into open space and it was 21 beyond -- it was beyond that -- that area. 22 Q: All right. Okay. And you 23 approximate that it was 200 metres? 24 A: Approximately. 25 Q: Okay. And was it on your initiative
2321 that this checkpoint was -- was relocated, based on what 2 you'd reported earlier, or what you'd observed earlier? 3 A: It was a request from the Command 4 Post. 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: So just to clarify, based on the map 10 that we have up, would it be your recollection that the 11 new location for Checkpoint Delta would have been beyond 12 the top yellow dot there -- we see marked there; or the 13 northernmost? 14 A: Well -- well I have no way to measure 15 it to scale or anything, but it -- it was -- the final 16 northern position of Checkpoint Delta was beyond the 17 built-up area of -- of the original Army Base. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: At a location where the service road, 20 the fence to the Army Base, and Army Camp Road was fairly 21 close. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps if we could have 23 the Witness identify -- if you could identify with your 24 laser pointer, sir, where, to the best of your 25 recollection, it moved to?
2331 A: Well, if this is the service road -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- and this is -- is this built-up 4 area here? 5 Q: There are buildings there, yes. 6 A: Then in -- it would have been beyond 7 those buildings in -- in that area there. 8 Q: Okay. And for the record, he is 9 describing a point at the northernmost point on Army Camp 10 Road, where the built-up area ends, opposite the Inner -- 11 Inner Drive service -- service road. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Okay. Mr. Millar is suggesting we 16 use perhaps a different map that might illustrate this 17 point more clearly. For the record, the previous map was 18 Exhibit P-437B. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: This is -- what we see up on the 23 screen is P-1284. You can take a moment to orientate 24 yourself, Sergeant Slack. With this particular map, you 25 can see the built-up area in the lower left hand corner
2341 of the area designated Department of National Defence, 2 Camp Ipperwash. If you can see, just above the red line, 3 running along Highway 21. 4 Is that clear? 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: All right. And if you could identify 7 on that map, perhaps, where the new location for 8 Checkpoint Delta was, to the best of your recollection. 9 A: Checkpoint Delta ended up -- it's 10 most further -- northern point, away from these -- the 11 built-up area, where this road, the service road, was as 12 fairly close to the fence line and the Army Camp Road. 13 Q: All right. Thank you, Sergeant 14 Slack. And I take it you moved as well with the other 15 officers at Checkpoint Delta? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall which officers 18 were with you at that point? 19 A: At that point it would have been P/C 20 Wells, P/C Grigg, P/C Hall and P/C Horzempa. 21 Q: Okay. And what did you observe once 22 you moved to the new location? 23 A: There was a heavy volume of vehicle 24 traffic going both north and south bound on the service 25 road. A bonfire had been set at the -- on the service
2351 road, the Army Camp service road north of the main 2 buildings, just inside the fence portion of the -- the 3 Army Base. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Cars would stop and turn their 6 headlights towards the checkpoint, lighting us -- or 7 illuminating us with their headlights. And they would 8 also use spotlights to spotlight -- light up our 9 location. 10 Q: And were you aware of other 11 activities going on with other officers in the area at 12 this point? 13 A: At some point in time they were 14 starting to form up a CMU. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And there was that radio chatter. 17 Q: Okay. And were you or members of 18 your team ever requested to assist with that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And what's the next 21 recollection you have, or observation you made? 22 A: My next recollec -- recollection is 23 being concerned with this activity, the vehicle traffic, 24 the bonfire and the jack lighting. We were originally 25 out of our cars standing on the roadway.
2361 And when we started to get lit up with 2 headlights and the jack lights, the spotlights, in my 3 experience policing in Southwestern Ontario for all of my 4 career, that's a tactic used by poachers when they're 5 poaching wild -- wildlife, to illuminate their target and 6 then to shoot at their target. 7 So I was growing increasingly concerned 8 with my safety and the safety of the officers who were at 9 that checkpoint. With all the other activity going on, 10 with the earlier reports at the briefing, I instructed 11 the officers at that checkpoint to get into the ditch. 12 And it would have been on the west side of the road, 13 furthest away from the Army Camp. And we took up a 14 position in the ditch, lying in the ditch. 15 Q: And that was at the new location that 16 you describe in relation to the new location of 17 Checkpoint Delta? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And how long -- what did you 20 observe from the ditch? 21 A: Again, the same scenario of vehicle 22 traffic; a heavy volume of vehicle traffic both north and 23 south on the service road, the cars stopping and 24 illuminating our location, or spotlighting or jack 25 lighting our location.
2371 Q: And did you do anything further, 2 other than observing from the ditch? Did you report your 3 observations, for example? 4 A: Called it in, yes; reported it up. 5 Q: Okay. And how long did you spend in 6 that ditch, would you say? 7 A: We were probably laying in that ditch 8 for about twenty (20) minutes. And then at 23:06 I heard 9 shots fired, coming from the direction of Army Camp and 10 East Parkway Road. I heard those on the radio and I also 11 heard them without the help of the radio. There was also 12 a lot of radio chatter going on at the same time. 13 Q: How many shots did you hear fired? 14 A: I -- I don't have a recollection of a 15 number of shots. 16 Q: Okay. It was more than one (1)? 17 A: More than one (1). 18 Q: Okay. And what else did you hear? 19 What -- can you recall what you heard over the radio, 20 other than the shots? 21 A: There was radio chatter about a bus 22 coming out from inside Ipperwash Park, driving at the -- 23 the CMU. Again, a lot of radio chatter from CMU members 24 commenting on the bus coming at them. And it was very 25 chaotic. The sense I got, it was very chaotic at that
2381 location. 2 Q: All right. And could -- at this 3 point could you see anything happening inside the Army 4 Camp from your location? 5 A: Again, just -- the vehicles were 6 still moving up and down. 7 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 8 A: We maintained that position for a 9 period of time, to see if we were going to be called upon 10 to attend at the corner of East Parkway and Army Camp 11 Road to provide any assistance. That was -- no 12 assistance was requested. 13 My concern for our safety, because it was 14 -- laying in a shallow ditch was tactically very poor. 15 There was concealment because of the darkness but there 16 was no cover. To our backs was an open field, just a 17 very poor -- tactically a very poor position to be in. 18 We could have been flanked, we could have 19 been -- someone could have come up from behind us. And 20 again, I was extremely concerned about the safety of the 21 officers at the checkpoint. 22 So at 23:10 I moved the checkpoint from 23 Army Camp Road to Highway 21, west of Army Camp Road -- 24 west of the intersection of Army Camp Road. 25 Q: How far west?
2391 A: Probably 300 metres. 2 Q: Okay. Still within view of the 3 intersection there of Army Camp Road and Highway 21? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: But away from the lights, the street 7 lights at that corner. 8 Q: Okay. And did you proceed to that 9 location? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Did you observe -- at that point, 12 while you were proceeding to that location, or 13 immediately on your arrival there, did you observe any 14 vehicles leaving the Army Camp? 15 A: I didn't. 16 Q: Okay. And what happened once you got 17 there? 18 A: When we moved to that position, 19 again, we exited our vehicles and we took up a position 20 in the south ditch of Highway 21, laying in the ditch, 21 because we were still close enough to the Army Base that 22 we could have potentially been targets. 23 Q: Okay. And were you aware that some 24 of the officers -- or some officers had proceeded from 25 your location on Army Camp Road, and in the process --
2401 we've heard evidence from other Officers at this Inquiry 2 and we anticipate we'll hear further evidence, that they 3 followed and engaged in a low speed chase of a car that 4 had left the Army Camp? 5 A: I didn't know about that. 6 Q: You didn't. And you didn't observe - 7 - did you observe anything? 8 A: I didn't observe that. 9 Q: All right. All right. You described 10 taking cover in the ditch on the south side, I believe 11 you had indicated? 12 A: Highway 21. 13 Q: Of Highway 21. Who was with you at 14 that point? 15 A: At that point, P/C Parks and P/C 16 Dellemonache, I think I pronounced that right. I hope I 17 have. 18 Q: There are many -- many different 19 pronunciations have been offered here. 20 A: At some point in time they ended up 21 at our checkpoint. 22 Q: Okay. Did you have any non-ERT 23 Members at the checkpoint at that point? 24 A: When we moved to that checkpoint it 25 had been positioned by uniform members.
2411 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And we sent them further away. 3 Q: Do you recall which direction you 4 sent them? 5 A: I recall I -- I'm not exactly sure 6 which way they went. But they were relieved by us, by 7 the ERT Members. 8 Q: Okay. So they were uniformed 9 officers in the position that you took up on Highway 21? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And they were pushed to another -- 12 or -- 13 A: Further away. 14 Q: -- relocated? 15 A: They were relocated further away. 16 Q: Okay. Do you recall how many 17 uniformed officers were there? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. What happened next? 20 A: Shortly thereafter a vehicle exited 21 from the Army Base and drove over to our location on 22 Highway 21. Not knowing if this vehicle -- not knowing 23 the intentions of this vehicle, I was yelling at the 24 Officers -- we were -- we were strung out in the ditch 25 from east to west, some officers -- all the officers were
2421 east of me. I was the furthermost west. 2 I was yelling at the Officers to clear the 3 vehicle because I did not know if the vehicle contained 4 any firearms. 5 Q: Did the -- did the vehicle stop? 6 A: The vehicle stopped at our location. 7 Q: And what happened next? Or what did 8 you observe next? 9 A: Members at the furthest point in the 10 ditch, at the east end, came out of the ditch, came up 11 from the rear of the car and cleared the car for any 12 weapons. 13 Q: Okay. How many officers was that? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: And how did they do that, clearing 16 the vehicle? 17 A: They looked in the vehicle with their 18 flashlights, looking for any -- any weapons. 19 Q: Okay. And could you observe -- could 20 you observe them doing so from your location? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Could you -- did you see who was 23 inside the vehicle at that point? 24 A: There was a single female. 25 Q: Did she remain in the vehicle?
2431 A: She was asked to get out of the 2 vehicle. 3 Q: Okay. And who asked her to get out 4 of the vehicle? 5 A: The officers clearing the car. 6 Q: All right. And at that point, did 7 they have their weapons trained on her? 8 A: They would have had their rifles in a 9 ready position. 10 Q: Okay. And could you hear the 11 conversation between the officers and the woman? 12 A: The officers were yelling 13 instructions for the lady to get out of her car. 14 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 15 A: And then the lady got out of her car. 16 The vehicle was cleared. And then I proceeded from my 17 position in the ditch up to where the car was. 18 Q: Okay. And what did you do next? 19 A: I had a conversation with the lady 20 who was driving the car. 21 Q: Can you describe for us that 22 conversation? 23 A: I don't have a recollection of the 24 exact words spoken. 25 Q: Do you recall in general what you
2441 talked about? 2 A: She had come out looking for an 3 ambulance because her son had -- she told us her son had 4 been shot. 5 Q: Okay. Did she give you any further 6 information about how he'd been injured, other than 7 saying he'd been shot, or where? 8 A: Not that I can remember now. 9 Q: Okay. Did she tell you at that point 10 how old her son was? 11 A: Just it was her son. 12 Q: And was there any other information 13 exchanged during that -- that conversation? 14 A: It's my instruction to her that she 15 was to return to the -- within the confines of the Army 16 Base to get her son and to bring her son out -- back out 17 to the checkpoint, where we would have ambulances meet 18 her. 19 Q: Okay. And so -- she had requested 20 that an ambulance be sent into the Army Camp; is that 21 correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And why did you not agree to do that, 24 or direct -- ensure that happened? 25 A: The situation was un -- unstable, was
2451 un-contained, there had been some type of gunfight 2 moments before at East Parkway and Army Camp Road, and I 3 didn't feel it was safe for an ambulance or anyone else 4 to go into the Army Camp. 5 Q: Okay. And did you tell the woman any 6 of this information? 7 Or did you tell her why you weren't 8 sending an ambulance in to get her son? 9 A: I don't think that was part of our 10 conversation. 11 Q: All right. What happened next? 12 A: She got back in her car, drove back 13 into the Camp, I made a radio request for an ambulance. 14 And once there were -- two (2) ambulances arrived in a 15 very short order, at about the same time as she returned 16 from the Army Camp with her injured son. 17 Q: Okay. At this point, Sergeant Slack, 18 I'm going to play for you a logger tape recording. And 19 the transcript appears at Tab 4 of your transcripts. So 20 Region 4, for the reference of counsel. This transcript 21 is marked 23:18 hours on September 6th. 22 I understand from Mr. Millar that that's 23 the correct time. It doesn't need to be advanced by 24 seven (7) minutes. 25
2461 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 [Lima 1 = Unknown] 4 [Delta = Sergeant John Slack?] 5 [Lima 2 = Unknown] 6 7 Delta: Lima 1 from Delta. Lima 1 from Delta. 8 Lima 1: Delta, copy. 9 Delta: Lima 1 from Delta. We need an ambulance 10 here at 21. 11 Unknown: 10-4 an ambulance at 21. An occupant from 12 the camp came out requiring an ambulance 13 for her son. 14 Lima 1: Delta from Lima 1. Just one ambulance, 15 and we'll get it rolling. Is that 10-4? 16 Unknown: ... inaudible ... ambulance en route 17 taking Ipperwash Road. 18 Delta: Lima 1, Delta. 19 Lima 1: Delta, go ahead. 20 Delta: Yeah. We're out here on 21. We need this 21 highway closed off, both ends. 22 Lima 1: Okay. Have you got enough there to do it? 23 Delta: ... inaudible ... we're in the ditch. 24 Lima 1: What have you got in the ditch? 25 Delta: We're in the ditch. We need it closed
2471 off. 2 About at Ravenswood on the west and perh 3 aps 4 the 5 Army 6 Camp 7 . or 8 the 9 next 10 road 11 west 12 from 13 Army 14 Camp 15 . 16 10- 17 4. 18 Lima 1: Okay. 10-4. We'll try and get somebody 19 to do that. 20 Lima 2: Delta, Lima 2. Delta, Lima 2. 21 Delta: Lima 2, Delta. Go ahead. 22 Lima 2: How many people have you got there that 23 can break away to provide security at the 24 parking lot? 25 Delta: Lima 2, Delta. We have no one right now
2481 that I'm going to give up. 10-4. 2 Lima 2: 10-4. 3 4 End of conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 9 Q: That's the end of that recording. I 10 have a number of questions for you, Sergeant Slack. 11 First of all, do you recognize your own voice on that 12 recording? 13 A: It's hard for me to recognize my own 14 voice, but it sounds... 15 Q: All right. Does the content -- do 16 you recall making a radio call or having a radio call 17 like that -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- on that evening? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you know who -- assuming this is 22 you, who you would have been speaking to, as Lima 1? 23 A: I don't know who that officer was, 24 someone in the Command Post. 25 Q: All right. And you don't recognize
2491 the voice? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And it appears -- or it -- it 4 sounds and appears from the transcript as -- as if just 5 one (1) ambulance was requested, and one (1) ambulance 6 was dispatched at that point, according to the radio 7 transmission. 8 A: Requested an ambulance. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: For some reason two (2) ambulances 11 attended. 12 Q: All right. And we also heard on the 13 recording you reporting that you were in the ditch. Do 14 you recall being in the ditch when you made the request, 15 having returned to the ditch by the time you made the 16 request for the ambulance to attend? 17 A: That's correct. As soon as the 18 vehicle left we returned to our cover positions. 19 Q: And do you recall asking that Highway 20 21 be closed off between Ravenswood and the road -- next 21 road west from the Army Camp -- or the next road -- next 22 -- west from the Army Camp? Do you recall making a 23 request to that effect? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall anyone
2501 requesting from you that you send some of the people at 2 your checkpoint down to provide security at the parking 3 lot? 4 A: I don't remember that, other than 5 from reading it here. 6 Q: Okay. Which officers were with you 7 by that point? How many officers did you have? 8 A: It would have been six (6). 9 Q: Six (6). And at that point would you 10 have felt comfortable sending any of those officers away 11 from your location that you'd identified there? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Why not? 14 A: Because I didn't -- wouldn't have 15 felt comfortable sending anyone away from that location 16 at that time. 17 Q: And why is that? 18 A: Because we didn't know what we had, 19 what situation was -- was brewing the Army Camp. 20 Q: All right. If I could ask that 21 Region 4 could be marked as the next exhibit? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1622, Your Honour? 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1622: Transcript of Region 04, Lima 25 1-Delta(Sgt John Slack), Lima
2511 2, September 06, 1995, 23:18 2 hrs, Logger tape number 0146, 3 Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 4 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And we will enter 6 as an exhibit all of the logger tape recordings played 7 for Sergeant Slack, which I will provide to the Registrar 8 today. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Do you want the exhibit 10 number now? 11 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1623, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1623: Reserved. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Thank you. Okay. And what happened 18 next? 19 A: Within the same timeframe I requested 20 two (2) uniformed officers attend at Checkpoint Delta to 21 accompany the ambulance with the injured party to the 22 hospital. 23 Q: Okay. And you made that request 24 prior to anyone emerging again from the Army Camp, or the 25 ambulance arriving?
2521 A: All of these events happened 2 relatively close together. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: But I didn't want to wait -- I didn't 5 want to waste time having the -- I wanted all these 6 things to happen at the same time, as soon as I could. 7 Q: Okay. And why did you want them to 8 happen as soon as possible? 9 A: Because I felt there was some urgency 10 with the person reportedly being shot, that they would 11 need to go the hospital. 12 Q: Okay. And how long, in your 13 estimation, did it take for the ambulances to arrive once 14 you made the -- the request that we heard over the logger 15 tape? 16 A: It was very quickly but I can't give 17 you an exact time. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And did you 19 observe the woman returning or emerging from the Army 20 Camp again? 21 A: Subsequently, a vehicle returned from 22 the Army Camp and stopped at our location. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: But I -- but I don't know the 25 sequence, whether she got there first and then the
2531 ambulances got there, or the ambulances got there and 2 then she got there, or they got there at the same time. 3 It was all a very close time -- timeline. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall where the -- 5 where the ambulances were situated in relation to your 6 position? 7 A: The ambulances were parked on the 8 roadway in the -- basically in the middle of the roadway, 9 because our cruisers were on the south side of the 10 roadway parked on the gravel shoulder edge of the 11 roadway. 12 Q: Okay. And were the ambulances 13 parallel with your, or closer to the Army Camp, or 14 further away from the Army Camp? 15 A: They were parallel, facing the 16 opposite direction, right where we were. 17 Q: Okay. And where was the car, where 18 did the car stop in relation to your position and in 19 relation to the ambulances? 20 A: On the north side of the road -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- right where we were, probably in 23 the middle of the group of cruisers, the three (3) or 24 four (4) cruisers that were there and the ambulance. 25 Q: All right. And could you observe
2541 the car directly from where you were in the ditch? 2 A: Not from the ditch but, getting out 3 of the ditch and standing on the road. 4 Q: And did you do that? 5 A: Yes I did. 6 Q: What did you observe? 7 A: I saw the vehicle. And I was at the 8 rear end of the last ambulance, the second ambulance when 9 the two uniformed officers arrived and I stayed there. 10 Q: And they were facing east? The 11 ambulance was -- 12 A: They were facing -- the ambulance was 13 facing east, the two (2) uniform Officers arrived from 14 the west and were facing east. 15 Q: Okay. And do you know who those two 16 (2) uniformed Officers were? 17 A: At the time I didn't. 18 Q: Do you know now? 19 A: I know one (1) of them right now. 20 Q: Who was that? 21 A: Constable Boon. 22 Q: All right. And what did you observe 23 next? 24 A: Sorry? 25 Q: What did you do or what did you
2551 observe next? What happened next? 2 A: The situation was -- as you can 3 appreciate somewhat frantic. I had time pressures to get 4 these people loaded up and I gave instructions to 5 Constable Boon to arrest the male for mischief and to 6 read him his rights and then caution him. 7 Q: Okay. Why did you do that? 8 A: At the time, when the young man came 9 out, I had the belief that he was involved in the 10 confrontation. I had the belief that he was not only 11 involved in the confrontation but could potentially be 12 armed. I also had the belief that standing on a roadway, 13 being exposed to the Army Camp was not a safe situation. 14 So I needed to ensure the safety of 15 everyone who was there. So I instructed the Officer, 16 Constable Boon, to arrest the male. 17 Looking at it now, in hindsight, there was 18 -- there was probably a better way to proceed instead of 19 issuing those instructions for him to arrest that 20 individual. In hindsight, it probably would have been a 21 better way to proceed if we'd detain him using 22 investigative detention it would accomplished the same -- 23 the same goals. 24 Q: Okay. And those goals being? 25 A: To get him expedited to the hospital,
2561 to get him searched for possible weapons, and to clear 2 the roadway as expeditiously as possible of people 3 standing on the roadway because we were exposed. We were 4 sitting ducks from anything from inside the Army Camp. 5 Q: And in terms of -- you'd mention 6 there were -- uniformed Officers had arrived; ambulance 7 and ambulance attendants had arrived. You had your ERT 8 team members. Did the woman that you had spoken to 9 earlier accompany her son out from the Army Camp? Did 10 you see her? 11 A: Not up close. I couldn't tell you if 12 it was the same woman or not. I believe there was two 13 (2) women I the car but, I don't know their names. 14 Q: Did you observe them directly? 15 A: From a distance. 16 Q: Okay. Did you hear any conversations 17 between them and the officers, or did you have -- the 18 other officers there, or did you have any conversations 19 with them directly? 20 A: I didn't, no. 21 Q: And you couldn't overhear any? 22 A: I didn't hear any, no. 23 Q: Did you hear anyone yelling; either 24 Officers or the women in the car? 25 A: Not that I can remember now.
2571 Q: Okay. How far were you standing from 2 the women in the car? 3 A: At least two (2) ambulance lengths 4 and behind the ambulance. I was behind the rear of the 5 ambulance, estimate maybe 50/60 feet or maybe not even 6 that far. Maybe 30 or 40) feet. 7 Q: Okay. And what did you observe from 8 that point? 9 A: My focus at that point was talking to 10 the two (2) uniformed Officers -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- and I didn't even see the 13 individual being removed from the car and stretchered 14 out. 15 Q: Okay. And could you see the two (2) 16 women and what they were doing; the one (1) woman? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. And at that point were 19 you aware of the -- the age of the young man in the car? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And were you aware of any 22 issues or requests around the woman you'd spoken to you 23 earlier accompanying the young man in the ambulance? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you provide an instructions to
2581 any officers with regard to that issue? 2 A: Constable Boon was instructed to ride 3 with the ambulance. His partner was instructed to follow 4 the ambulance and to retrieve Constable Boon from the 5 hospital and bring him back to the area. 6 Q: Okay. At that time were you aware 7 that the young man's mother wanted to accompany him in 8 the ambulance? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And so you weren't aware then 11 that she was not permitted to do so? 12 A: No. 13 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 18 A: We remained at that location until 19 23:49 when again I came to the conclusion that that 20 position was tactically very poor. We had no really way 21 to defend ourselves. The only concealment we had was the 22 concealment of darkness. 23 And I decided to split up the checkpoints 24 and send a group of the officers to Outer Wood -- 21 25 Highway and Outer Wood.
2591 Q: Outer? 2 A: Outer Way. 3 Q: Outer Drive? 4 A: Outer Drive. And the rest of us 5 proceeded to 21 Highway and Ravenswood. 6 Q: Okay. And if I can take you to 7 Region 5, that's Tab 5 of the transcripts. That's a 8 transcript of a call on the evening of September 6th, 9 1995 marked at 23:19 hours I believe. 10 And it would appear to be another 11 conversation between yourself from Delta and Lima 1. I 12 wonder if we might briefly play that call as there is 13 some question as to whether it's actually you on the 14 tape. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I'm wondering if our audio people 19 could hook Mr. Millar up. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 [Lima 1 = Unknown] 24 [Delta = Sergeant John Slack?] 25
2601 Delta: Lima 1, Delta. Go ahead. 2 Lima 1: Delta, Lima 1. We're going to get a Grand 3 Bend unit to shut down 21 Highway at Outer 4 Drive. Is that 10-4? 5 Delta: Yeah. We've got one uniform unit there 6 now, and one uniform at the other end at 7 Ravenswood. 10-4. 8 Lima 1: Yep. That's 10-4. You guys all okay? 9 Delta: That's 10-4. 10 11 End of conversation 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: Now first of all, do you recall 17 participating in a conversation, or do you recognize your 18 voice on that tape? 19 A: Again, it's hard for me to recognize 20 my own voice. I don't recall that conversation. 21 Q: Do you recall around that time -- and 22 you'd mentioned earlier that many things were happening 23 at the same time or in close temporal proximity to each 24 other? 25 Do you recall dispatching uniforms and
2611 reporting that in that you'd sent one (1) set uniforms 2 out to Outer Drive, or uniformed officers rather, and the 3 other to Ravenswood and Highway 21? 4 A: I have no recollection of that. 5 Q: All right. And I'm wondering if the 6 transcript of that call might be entered as the next 7 exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1625 (sic), Your 9 Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1624: Transcript of Region 05, Lima 12 1, Delta(Sgt John Slack) 13 September 06, 1995, 23:19 14 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 15 12, Disc 12 of 20. 16 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 19 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you to 20 Region 6, the next tab. There's a trans -- transcribed 21 logger tape call between yourself and Lima 2 apparently. 22 And again Lima 2 is requesting that you provide people to 23 breakaway and provide security at the parking lot. And 24 again, you reiterate you have no one right now that 25 you're willing to give up.
2621 Tab 6. And it's a call at 23:22 hours 2 September 6th, 1995. Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you recall having that 5 conversation? 6 A: No. 7 Q: We could enter that as the next 8 exhibit, please? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1626 (sic), Your 10 Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1625: Transcript of Region 06, 13 Delta(Sgt John Slack), Lima 14 2, September 06, 1995, 23:22 15 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 16 12, Disc 12 of 20. 17 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 20 Q: Okay. And at the next tab, Tab 7, or 21 Region 7 for the benefit of Counsel, there's a call 22 that's listed as taking place or beginning at 23:27 hours 23 between Sergeant Slack and Lima 1 and an unknown male. 24 And I'm wondering if we might play that 25 call at Region 7?
2631 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 [Delta = Sergeant John Slack?] 4 [Lima 1 = Unknown] 5 [UKM = Unknown Male] 6 7 Delta: Lima 1, Delta. 8 Lima 1: Delta, Lima 1. Go ahead. 9 Delta: Do we have a uniform . a uniform that can 10 go with this ambulance? 10-4. 11 UKM: ... inaudible ... and Murphy can go from 12 Ravenswood. 13 Lima 1: Delta, yeah, put two uniforms in with that 14 10-52. Detectives will meet them at the 15 Strathroy Hospital. 10-4 16 Delta: The uniforms from Ravenswood. Is that 10- 17 4? 18 19 Static 20 21 Delta: Have those two uniforms that are going to 22 go come down here to meet me at the corner 23 of 21 and Army Camp right now. 24 25 End of conversation
2641 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: That's the end of that conversation, 5 Sergeant Slack. So this would appear to be the -- the 6 conversation wherein you requested that two (2) uniforms 7 attend prior to the ambulance arriving; is that correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. If we could enter that as 10 the next exhibit, the transcript, at Region 7? 11 THE REGISTRAR: We have a correction on 12 these. The Region 5 is 1624 and then Region 6 would be 13 1625 and then Region 7 would be 1626. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1626: Transcript of Region 07, 16 Delta(Sgt John Slack), Lima 17 1, September 06, 1995, 23:27 18 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 19 12, Disc 12 of 20. 20 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. And also 22 for the record Mr. Millar has pointed out to me that the 23 Region 6, identified now as Exhibit P-1625, is actually 24 an excerpt of the call that -- that is captured at 25 Exhibit 1624 -- I'm sorry, 1623 -- 1622. The call that
2651 began at 23:18 hours, Region 4. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got 3 that marked 1622; is that right? 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 8 Q: Okay. So did you observe the 9 ambulance leaving for the -- you'd already mentioned you 10 hadn't observed the young man being transferred into the 11 ambulance, did you observe the ambulance leaving for the 12 hospital? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you receive any 15 further information as to what occurred with that young 16 man -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- on his departure; his condition? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Did you have any further 21 involvement with him in any capacity; any further 22 investigations? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. You'd mentioned that you 25 ordered the officers at your checkpoint, including
2661 yourself, to move either west or east; west to Ravenswood 2 or east to Outer Drive for safety reasons. And what 3 happened next? 4 A: Myself and Parks and Dellemonache 5 moved to Ravenswood; the other four (4) went to Outer 6 Drive. From there at Ravenswood where I was the ERT 7 members took up a position, a cover position for the 8 uniformed members who were manning that roadblock on the 9 -- on the highway. 10 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to the 11 transcript -- logger tape transcript at Tab 8, marked as 12 -- beginning at 23:39 hours on September 6th, 1995? 13 In it you're noted as stating in the 14 middle there, it's a very brief conversation it would 15 appear: 16 "We received information that another 17 gun shot victim was transported in a 18 private vehicle to Strathroy Hospital." 19 And then Lima 1 response: 20 "We're aware of that and the location 21 of that vehicle." 22 Can you recall that conversation? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you recall receiving the 25 information described in that call about the other
2671 gunshot victim? 2 A: No I don't. 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: If we could have 4 that marked as the next Exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1627 Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1627: Transcript of Region 08, 8 Delta (Sgt John Slack), Lima 9 1, September 06, 1995, 23:39 10 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 11 12, Disc 12 or 20. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 14 Q: And prior to your departure to the 15 new locations -- or to the new location at Ravenswood 16 what could you observe going on at the Army Camp? 17 A: There was still activity. 18 Q: What kind of activity? 19 A: Movement of vehicles, but beyond that 20 it was -- we weren't close enough to observe anything 21 else. 22 Q: Could you observe people, individual 23 figures from your location? 24 A: I didn't -- not from where I was. 25 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to the
2681 transcript at region 9, the call that's noted as 2 beginning at 23:46 hours on September 6th, 1995. In it, 3 to quote the transcript: 4 "Be advised [you're advising Lima 1] 5 I've split up the people at Delta, 6 three (3) of us are going to Ravenswood 7 and four (4) are going east to the 8 other checkpoints. A lot of activity 9 out in front of the gate and some of 10 them are starting to circle that barn." 11 And then a further conversation between 12 Lima 1 and Lima 2. And do you recall passing that 13 information on in that manner or having that 14 conversation? 15 A: No, no. 16 Q: Okay. And do you have any 17 recollection of any activity -- observing any activity 18 that would match with, "some of them are starting to 19 circle that barn." 20 Do you know what you would have meant 21 there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: If I could have that marked as the 24 next Exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1628, Your Honour.
2691 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1628: Transcript of Region 09, 2 Delta(Sgt John Slack), Lima 3 1, Lima 2, September 06, 4 1995, 23:46 hrs, Logger tape 5 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 6 20. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 9 Q: And turning to the next Tab at Region 10 10, there's a call there marked as initiating at 23:50 11 hours on September 6th, 1995 between yourself and Lima 1. 12 It notes you saying: 13 "We're here at Ravenswood, the three 14 (3) of us. I suggest you get a unit at 15 Army Camp and we're rerouting the 16 traffic and at North Wood." 17 And some unintelligible conversation and 18 you confirm with Lima 1 that that's south of 21 Highway 19 and Army Camp Road. 20 Do you recall having that conversation? 21 A: No. 22 Q: It would appear from this call that 23 by 23:50 hours you had relocated to Ravenswood; is that 24 correct? 25 A: That's correct.
2701 Q: Do you have a -- and do you have any 2 other recollection as to the precise time of your -- your 3 leaving the first location -- 4 A: No -- 5 Q: -- where the ambulance transfer 6 occurred? 7 If we could have that marked as the next 8 Exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1629, Your 10 Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1629: Transcript of Region 10, 13 Delta(Sgt John Slack), Lima 14 1, September 06, 1995, 23:50 15 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 16 12, Disc 12 of 20. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 19 Q: Turning to the next Tab, Regional 11, 20 there's a call starting at 23:52 hours or a transcript of 21 a call starting at 23:52 hours on September 6th, 1995 22 between yourself Sergeant Slack and Unit 2424. First of 23 all, do you know who 2424 was? 24 A: I don't remember from the time. From 25 reading your transcript it would be Lorch and his
2711 partner; I don't know who that was. 2 Q: And 2424 appears to be asking you 3 what your wishes are with respect to their activities or 4 2424's activities. You instruct them to stay there at 5 Outer Drive with two (2) other units. 6 Do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And 2424 confirms that there's two 9 (2) uniform cruisers with them at that location. 10 Can you recall having that conversation? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Is it consistent with 13 your recollection as to what was happening at that point? 14 There was another member -- part of your 15 team was at Outer Drive by that point, at 23:52 hours. 16 A: I -- I put Hall, Wells, Grigg and 17 Horzempa there. I don't know where Lorch and his partner 18 came from. I'm not sure where they were prior to that. 19 Q: All right. Okay. And if we could 20 have that marked as the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1630, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1630: Transcript of Region 11, 24 2424, Sgt John Slack, 25 September 06, 1995, 23:52
2721 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 2 12, Disc 12 of 20. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 5 Q: And we have one final call at Region 6 12 that initiated at 23:54 hours, September 6th, 1995 7 involving you, Sergeant Slack, Lima 1. And Lima 1 8 advises you, Sergeant Slack, "Lima 1 to the units at 9 Ravenswood" by that point according to earlier calls, it 10 would appear that you were at Ravenswood. 11 "You'll now be Checkpoint 1. We're 12 falling back to another plan. You are 13 now Checkpoint 1. Is that 10-4?" 14 And you confirm 10-4. Do you recall 15 having conversation? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Do you recall the checkpoint you were 18 at at Ravenswood and Highway 21 being renamed Checkpoint 19 1? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And there's a reference there by Lima 22 1: 23 "We're falling back to another plan." 24 And Do you have any idea what that's 25 about?
2731 A: No. 2 Q: If we could mark that as the next 3 exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1631, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1631: Transcript of Region 12, Lima 7 1, Delta (Sgt John Slack) 8 September 06, 1995, 23:54 9 hrs, Logger tape 0146, Track 10 12, Disc 12 of 20 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 13 Q: Thank you. So once you were at 14 Ravenswood and Highway 21, can you described what you 15 observed and what you did? 16 A: At 21 Highway and Ravenswood, on the 17 northeast side the ditch is about 10 feet deep. I became 18 very familiar with it. You can physically stand in that 19 ditch and your head won't be above the road level. 20 Took up position -- a cover position in 21 there initially. And then -- 22 Q: Did you have uniformed officers with 23 you at that point? 24 A: There was uniformed officers on a 25 checkpoint standing on the roadway there.
2741 Q: All right. Okay. 2 A: A little later on I took up another 3 position out of the ditch at -- there's a large grove of 4 large pine trees there. I took up a cover position in -- 5 in those trees. 6 There was vehicle traffic, some vehicle 7 traffic, both westbound and eastbound, throughout the 8 night. 9 Q: Okay. And did the uniformed officers 10 on the roadway stop the vehicle traffic? 11 A: They spoke to the vehicles that came 12 to the checkpoint. 13 Q: Could you -- could you heard the 14 conver -- their conversations with the drivers? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Or the passengers? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. You mentioned there were cars 19 going in both directions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Were any of them turned away by the 22 uniformed officers or were they let -- permitted to pass 23 through? 24 A: All passed. 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall knowing who
2751 was in any of those vehicles or learning at any point who 2 -- about the occupants of the vehicles? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you have any conversations with 5 the unformed officers about who -- their -- their own 6 conversations with the occupants of the vehicles? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And do you recall at that 9 point of -- or during that evening, observing anything 10 that resembled cars -- a car or cars evacuating people 11 from the Army Camp? 12 A: I don't recall that. 13 Q: Okay. And during the course of the - 14 - those early morning hours, did you receive any further 15 information about what had happened down near the Park or 16 anywhere else? 17 A: Some time later that morning the 18 ambulances, or one (1) of the ambulances returned and 19 took up a stationary position at Ravenswood and 21. 20 From one (1) of the ambulance drivers who 21 I had a conversation with, he indicated to me that two 22 (2) people had been killed that evening, but he didn't 23 have any detail as to who they were. 24 Q: All right. And did you know, even at 25 that point, whether it was police officers or First
2761 Nations people? 2 A: I had no details. 3 Q: Did you receive any further 4 information about what was going on in the area, or what 5 had transpired, from any other source? 6 A: No. 7 Q: What was your perception as to the -- 8 the level of risk, or the threat to your safety or the 9 safety of other officers at that point? 10 A: Extremely high. 11 Q: What did you base that assessment on? 12 A: On the activities, the gunfight at 13 the corner of East Parkway and Army Camp Road. The 14 aggressive activity at our checkpoint on Army Camp Road, 15 north of the entrance. 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do as a 17 result of that perception or assessment of the risk? 18 A: Again, I was -- took up a cover 19 position for the uniformed officers who were manning a 20 checkpoint on the roadway in a very vulnerable position. 21 Q: Okay. And what else did you observe 22 from that location? 23 A: Still during the night or as -- 24 Q: Did you -- did you observe anything 25 else during the night or before -- before daybreak?
2771 A: Just -- no, there was just -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- as I mentioned earlier, some 4 traffic going both ways. 5 Q: And how about after daybreak? 6 A: After daybreak, when dawn arrived, I 7 heard -- didn't actually observe but I heard a loud -- a 8 large noise which I attributed to possible gunshots, the 9 sound of possible gunshots coming from the area of Kettle 10 Point Reserve. 11 I also observed smoke and a fire coming 12 from the area west of my location on 21 and Ravenswood, 13 but I couldn't tell if it was on 21 Highway or on another 14 road, it was too far away. 15 Q: Okay. Did you pass on your -- your 16 hearing what you thought at the time to be gun -- gunfire 17 to anyone else? Did you communicate it to anyone over 18 the radio or...? 19 A: I don't remember at this time. 20 Q: All right. And did you ever -- did 21 you ever learn anything else about the -- the origin of 22 those noises -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- or the noise? Okay. And what 25 happened next?
2781 A: So as dawn arrived we had -- I had 2 repositioned myself from the northwest side of the 3 intersection at Highway 21 and Ravenswood, to the south; 4 I was at the northeast side, I repositioned myself to the 5 southwest side. 6 And I observed a large group of marchers, 7 they were walking westbound -- or sorry, eastbound on 8 Highway 21 from the direction of Kettle Point Reserve 9 towards the Army Base. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. How many people would you 11 say? 12 A: I estimated at the time between -- I 13 believe I have a hundred (100) and two hundred (200) 14 people. 15 Q: Okay. And did you observe any 16 vehicles? 17 A: There was a combination of people 18 walking, people riding in vehicles. 19 Q: Okay. And did you participate in or 20 observe any communication with those people? 21 A: Constable Parks attempted to identify 22 a spokesman for the group. He was unsuccessful with 23 that. Then he asked, in a loud voice, that the marchers 24 not proceed eastbound because we couldn't guarantee their 25 safety, to no avail; the marchers and the vehicles
2791 continued eastbound. 2 Q: Okay. And did you direct Constable 3 Parks to communicate with the group? Or was it of his 4 own initiative? 5 A: I can't remember at this time. 6 Q: Okay. And what -- what happened 7 next? 8 A: As the marchers went by there were 9 some verbal taunts directed at police. They called -- 10 called us murderers, yelled at us, Murderers, Pigs. 11 There was also a large contingent of media that 12 accompanied the marchers. 13 Eventually that morning, in the middle of the morning, 14 the ERT members at that location were relieved by 15 uniformed Members. 16 Q: Okay. Including yourself? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And just to go back to the 19 marchers, they proceeded through the location at your 20 checkpoint, and did you see or hear anything further in 21 terms of their progress, or receive any information about 22 where they went, what happened next? 23 A: Not that specific group. 24 Q: Okay. And did you have any 25 understanding, at that point, as to where they were going
2801 or why? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you believe them to be going to 4 the Army Camp or -- 5 A: That would be their logical 6 destination. 7 Q: All right. Okay. And so you were 8 relieved at that Checkpoint? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And do you recall or do you have a 11 note of what time that happened? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Where did you go after that? 14 A: We went back to Forest Detachment 15 where the Command post was. 12:30 we received a report 16 of a group of individuals taking over the forward TOC, 17 taking over the forward TOC site. 18 So we drove from Forest Detachment to 19 Ipperwash Road and East Parkway Drive. By the time we 20 reached that location the forward TOC staff had evacuated 21 that site, so there was no longer a need to go there and 22 we turned around and went back to Forest, to the Command 23 post. 24 Q: And when you say, "We," who are you 25 referring to? Or is it the Royal We?
2811 A: In the car with me would have been 2 another ERT member, I can't remember who that was, and 3 there was other ERT members in other cars. 4 Q: Okay. What did you do next? 5 A: We returned to Forest. And then at 6 1:15 we were relieved and we went to Grand Bend; 2:00 we 7 went off duty, 14:00 we went off duty. 8 Q: Okay. And at any point prior to or 9 after going off duty at 14:00, did you -- were you 10 debriefed by anyone? 11 A: Not at that point, no. 12 Q: Were you given any information as to 13 the events of the previous evening? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. And where did you go on -- or 16 I'm sorry if you've already told us, where you went on 17 going off duty? 18 A: We were billeted at Pinedale Motel in 19 Grand Bend. 20 Q: Okay. And did you discuss the 21 situation with any of your fellow Officers at that point? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And when and how, if you can recall, 24 did you learn that one (1) person had died as a result of 25 the events of the previous evening?
2821 A: I don't recall when I -- when I 2 learned that. 3 Q: Okay. You returned to duty on 4 September 8th, 1995? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And you continued to function as a 7 second in command, a ERT leader -- or ERT leader during 8 the week -- 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: -- the week that followed? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: I note that you also gave a 13 statement. Or did you provide a statement? 14 A: No. 15 Q: NO. Were you interviewed by anybody? 16 Did you provide -- 17 A: No -- 18 Q: -- any sort of statement? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Sorry, I was in error there. And you 21 remained in the area until September 12th, I believe? If 22 you can have a look at your notes we can... 23 A: That's correct, stayed there until 24 the 12th, left on the 12th. 25 Q: You left on the 12th. And you were
2831 also debriefed, after a fashion, on September 12th by a 2 Dr. Hoath? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And what was the nature and objective 5 of that debriefing, as far as you knew? 6 A: To deal with the emotions that the 7 officers were experiencing. 8 Q: Okay. And during this period did you 9 work with either of Officers Dyke or Whitehead? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. Did you observe or 12 purchase any paraphernalia related to -- we've heard 13 descriptions and seen T-shirts that were produced with 14 the TRU logo and an anvil depicted on them, for example; 15 memorabilia commemorating the events of the evening of 16 September 6th. Did you observe any of that -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- mugs or T-shirts? And did you 19 return to the Pinery Park -- Provincial Park -- Pinery 20 Provincial Park at any point after -- I believe your last 21 -- your last noted to have been there on September 5th; 22 is that correct? Or September 4th? 23 At any time after September 6th did you 24 return to the -- the Pinery -- 25 A: No.
2841 Q: -- Pinery Provincial Park? Okay. 2 Unless you have anything further to add Sergeant Slack, 3 or you'd like to say at this point, I have no further 4 questions for you. Although I'm sure some of My Friends 5 do. 6 A: No. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. Does anybody have any questions for this 9 officer? Please give us some indication. 10 Yes, Mr. Alexander...? 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Five (5) minutes, 12 and Ms. McLachlin will be conducting the cross. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 14 -- yes, I'm sorry. 15 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: Twenty (20) minutes - 16 - Amanda Rogers. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 18 minutes. 19 And Mr. Scullion...? 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Between fifteen (15) 21 and twenty (20) minutes. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Fifteen (15) to 23 twenty (20) minutes for the Residents of Aazhoodena. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 25 Johnson...?
2851 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Ten (10) minutes 2 depending on what my friends -- 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ten (10) minutes 4 with Ms. Johnson and Kettle Point. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: Ten (10) to twenty (20) 7 minutes, sir. 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ten (10) to twenty 9 (20) minutes with Mr. Roy and ALST. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What does 11 that total, approximately? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: An hour to one point 13 three (1.3) hours. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Between one (1) 15 and one point three (1.3) hours, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we start? 17 Okay, let's start now and see how far we can get between 18 now and at least 5:30. We'll stay until at least 5:30. 19 We started at 10:00 so we should be able to go to 5:30. 20 Yes...? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 22 hate to interrupt you. I'm just wondering if there's a 23 possibility if it's sort of the difference between 24 sitting between 5:30 and 6:00 and getting Sergeant Slack 25 done today?
2861 If there's a way we could sit a little bit 2 later, rather than having -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And finish 4 him? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. Rather than him 6 having to return tomorrow for half an hour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 Could we take about a five (5) minute break now and then 9 come back and sit and see if we could complete Sergeant 10 Slack's evidence tonight. A very short break. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 of five (5) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 4:59 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 5:02 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed, please be seated. 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 21 go. 22 MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: Good afternoon, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 afternoon.
2871 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Slack. My 3 name is Erin McLaughlin and I represent the Estate of 4 Dudley George and several -- several members of the 5 George Family including Sam George. 6 The questions that I have for you refer to 7 your notes dated September 6th, beginning with the 8 briefing that appears to have begun at 18:36 or 6:36 p.m. 9 And that should be at Tab E-10 for your reference. 10 Now I understand that that briefing was 11 led by Sergeant Korosec; is that correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. And from your notes and the 14 evidence that you gave in the examination-in-chief, it 15 appears that you and your fellow officers were told at 16 that briefing that a sawed off shotgun had been seen in 17 the Native car known as the bat mobile; is that correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. However, during Sergeant 20 Korosec's testimony before the Inquiry, Sergeant Korosec 21 did not ever refer to a sawed off shotgun. 22 Does that refresh your memory as to 23 whether Sergeant Korosec or anyone else actually 24 mentioned that item in the briefing? 25 A: No.
2881 Q: Well perhaps, in addition, this will 2 help. We have had extensive evidence before this Inquiry 3 about what happened between 7:30 p.m. and nine o'clock on 4 the evening of the 6th when the OPP action was being 5 debated. 6 In all of that evidence there has been no 7 mention that Sergeant Korosec, Inspector Carson, 8 Inspector Linton or Detective Sergeant Wright ever once 9 mentioned a sawed off shotgun at the Park between 7:30 10 p.m. and 9:00 p.m., despite your evidence that it had 11 been mentioned in this briefing. 12 Does that perhaps refresh your memory that 13 the sawed off shotgun, allegedly mentioned at the 14 briefing, was forgotten or deemed insignificant two (2) 15 hours later? Do you still maintain that the shotgun was 16 mentioned at -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 18 to -- 19 MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: -- the briefing? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just let her 21 finish the question. 22 Go ahead. Is your question finished? 23 MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: It was a really
2891 long question. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 OBJ MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: And I have to 4 object because I think if that's to be properly put to 5 this Witness it's got to be broken down and the specific 6 evidence of those witnesses has to be put to him. It's 7 not fair otherwise. 8 MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: With all due 9 respect we have conducted a very careful word search of 10 all of these transcripts and have found no -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 12 not the objection. The objection is it's too hard a 13 question to answer in one (1) bump, so you have to take 14 it in smaller pieces. 15 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Well, and 16 further, Commissioner, I'm sorry, but a word search 17 through the database is not sufficient to -- to 18 characterize what each of those -- I think there were 19 five (5) officers mentioned in that question. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, the 21 question is unsatisfactory in its present form. 22 MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: All right. So the 23 briefing that was conducted by Sergeant Korosec, it was 24 at that briefing that it was alleged that there was a 25 sawed-off gun in the Native car. Now that has not been
2901 mentioned in evidence before, at all. 2 Is it still your evidence -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, I 4 think there is some evidence. I'm not sure. Somebody 5 want to refresh my memory? 6 I don't know where or exactly where or 7 exactly when at this point, but I think that's two (2) 8 general a statement. I think there is some evidence. I 9 don't know exactly where it was or when. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 14 think there was evidence about the seeing of a rifle butt 15 in a car by more than one (1) person. The specifics I 16 don't have at this second but I believe that there's been 17 evidence to that effect. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, some 19 evidence. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: 22 Q: There may have been evidence about a 23 rifle butt but we are, in particular, interested in a 24 sawed-off rifle -- sawed-off shotgun, sorry. Is it still 25 your evidence that that was brought to you at the
2911 briefing with Sergeant Korosec? 2 A: I have a note in my notebook that at 3 18:36 hours on September 6th, 1995, at a briefing 4 conducted by Sergeant Korosec, that among many points he 5 brought up, I noted at that time, point number 9, was 6 information given to us that there was a sawed-off 7 shotgun in the vehicle known as the 'batmobile'. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 MS. ERIN MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you. I have 10 no further questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. 13 Yes...? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 18 I 'm sorry, I don't have your name. I'm sorry. 19 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: Good afternoon, Mr. 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 22 to give us your name, please? 23 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: It's Amanda Rogers. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: Thank you.
2921 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. AMANDA ROGERS: 3 Q: I'm here to ask questions on behalf 4 of some of the Stoney Point First Nations people, 5 otherwise known as the Aazhoodena and George Family 6 Group. 7 Now I understand you were doing patrol in 8 the Park on August 12th, 1995? Refer to your notes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: On August 12th? 13 Q: Yes, 1995. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you were told at that time that 16 there was a warrant for Kevin Simon's arrest? 17 A: No, that's not correct. 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I'm sorry to 19 interrupt. That was in the outline. That occurrence was 20 listed at August 12. 21 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: Oh, yes, sorry. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: We corrected it, 23 it was August 11th. 24 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: It was August 11th, 25 yes, sorry.
2931 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 2 to ask the question again, please? 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. AMANDA ROGERS: 5 Q: Yes. Continuing then, you were told 6 that there was a warrant for a man, Kevin Simon's arrest? 7 You were pursuing somebody on foot; you were told there 8 was a warrant for their arrest? It's in your notes, sir. 9 A: After. 10 Q: After -- 11 A: The male, Kevin Simon, was taken into 12 my custody -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- and brought back to the cruisers 15 where P/C Horzempa and Hall attended. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: Their initial contact with that 18 individual was in reference to a warrant. 19 Q: Yes, sir. 20 A: And my initial contact was based on 21 my observations of a male running through the Park being 22 chased by an MNR staff member. A person who had no 23 reason to lie to me had told me that that individual had 24 been seen wrestling with police, and I wanted to know 25 what was going on.
2941 Q: I see. So at -- at the time that you 2 apprehended or were involved in the apprehension -- the 3 apprehending of Kevin Simon, you weren't aware of the 4 warrant or why the officers were pursuing him at that 5 time? 6 A: Not at that time. 7 Q: Okay. I see. Did you tell him at 8 the time -- you -- you testified today that you yelled 9 for him to stop. Did you explain to him why you were 10 yelling for him to stop or tell him that he was under 11 arrest, any of that information, sir? 12 A: I have notes that I yell at him to 13 stop, but I don't have any notes that I told him to stop 14 because there was a warrant or because -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- he assaulted police. 17 Q: And that's information that likely 18 would have been contained in your notes, had you told him 19 any additional information about why you wanted him to 20 stop? 21 A: Sorry, you've lost me there. 22 Q: If you had told him information about 23 why you wanted him to stop, that would be reflected in 24 your notes, you would think? 25 A: When I was yelling, running through
2951 the Park? 2 Q: After writing your notes, sir, you 3 wrote in your notes you had yelled for him to stop. And 4 there's nothing about telling him information about why 5 you asked him to stop. That is something that would be 6 in your notes, had you told him information? 7 A: Well, in 1995 -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- we kept notes to refresh our 10 memory. Notes were not a verbatim transcript of every 11 minute detail that happened when we were working. 12 Q: Understood. Now, we heard from the 13 testimony of Kevin Simon from December 1st, 2004, when he 14 was at the Inquiry, that he was apprehended by a semi- 15 circle of officers that sort of attempted, one (1) at a 16 time, to tackle him until he sort of got tired and 17 surrendered to police. 18 Is that your recollection of how he was 19 apprehended? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Could you give us your recollection? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He has. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 24 sorry, but this officer has given his recollection of 25 what happened.
2961 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes, he 2 testified to -- 3 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: I'll move on. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. AMANDA ROGERS: 6 Q: Was Kevin wearing any shoes at the 7 time? 8 A: I don't remember. 9 Q: You don't remember. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe he 11 was asked that question and gave that answer, but you're 12 -- carry on. 13 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: I'll move on. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. AMANDA ROGERS: 16 Q: Moving to September 6th, you've spoke 17 about your briefing with Sergeant Korosec at the Forest 18 Detachment. And you detailed for us what that briefing 19 contained. 20 I just want to be clear, there was no 21 discussion in the briefings that you were a part of, that 22 if the people in the Park were not engaged in any 23 behaviour that would constitute a threat to public 24 safety, that they should be left alone? 25 A: I have no recollection of that.
2971 Q: Okay. And similarly, there was no 2 discussion of a plan if -- to set up some sort of 3 checkpoint once the sandy parking lot was cleared, to 4 ensure that First Nations people stayed in the Park? 5 A: Not with me there wasn't. 6 Q: Okay. I'll move on from this issue, 7 as well. My final issue I'd like to discuss is the 8 arrest of Nicholas Cottrelle. Now you've testified that 9 you were the person who ordered the arrest of Nicholas 10 Cottrelle. He was a young man who had claimed to be 11 shot. 12 A: At the time, I believed what I was 13 doing was the right thing to do, based on all the things 14 that I've said. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: In hindsight, I probably could have 17 accomplished the same purpose in a different fashion. 18 Q: You testified that it was your belief 19 that Nicholas was involved in the confrontation, right? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you also testified that it was 22 your belief that he could be armed? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Now, if you're basing arrest solely 25 on the basis of belief, why was Nicholas not arrested on
2981 weapons charges? 2 A: Again, at the time I believed he was 3 involved in the confrontation. I believed he was 4 possibly armed. I believed that standing on the side of 5 the road was dangerous, and I directed an Officer to 6 arrest him. 7 But looking back at it in hindsight, I 8 acknowledge that there was probably a better way we could 9 have proceeded to accomplish the same purpose. 10 Q: Right. Because there was no risk of 11 him fleeing, you knew he was going to the hospital? 12 A: He was going to the hospital. 13 Q: And that you could do some sort of 14 investigative detention? 15 A: Absolutely. 16 Q: Right. I understand. Now, you 17 testified you saw the vehicle come out of the Park, in 18 which Gina George, Nicholas' mother, came out of the 19 vehicle and stated that her son had been shot. 20 Now, you testified that you didn't want 21 the ambulance to go into the Park for safety concerns. I 22 just want to clarify, this was because you believed that 23 First Nations people would shoot at medical personnel 24 that entered the Park to help one (1) of their members? 25 A: Shortly before that there had been a
2991 confrontation -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- at East Parkway Drive and Army 4 Camp Road. I don't know if the ambulance would have gone 5 into the Army Camp on their own. 6 Therefore it would have been incumbent 7 upon us to escort them for their safety. If we took an 8 ambulance or two (2) ambulances and a police car or two 9 (2) police cars in the main gates of CFB Ipperwash 10 shortly after the shooting, a gun fight -- I felt that 11 would have been extremely provocative, it probably would 12 have been interpreted the wrong way and was extremely 13 dangerous and I didn't entertain that thought for a 14 moment. 15 Q: Thank you. How long did your 16 conversation with Gina George last? 17 A: It wasn't very long. 18 Q: A couple of minutes? 19 A: I would -- I would say probably less 20 than a minute. 21 Q: Less than a minute. And then she 22 went into the Park and retrieved her son. 23 How long did it take for her to re-emerge 24 from the Park? 25 A: Probably the time it took her to get
3001 in her car, drive back into the Park, get her son and 2 drive back out. 3 Q: Five (5) minutes? 4 A: I -- I would say it wasn't even five 5 (5) minutes. We weren't that far from that entrance way. 6 Q: And how long did the exchange take 7 once the officers came out of the ditch with their guns 8 raised asking the occupants to exit the vehicle and 9 standing for weapons? 10 How long did that whole exchange take? 11 A: The initial time? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: When they -- 14 Q: From the time the vehicle re-emerged 15 from the Park? 16 A: Well there's two (2) separate times. 17 Q: Yeah. Re-emerged -- 18 A: I want to be clear. 19 Q: -- from the Park. Sorry. With -- 20 with the son in the vehicle? 21 A: I -- I don't know how long that took. 22 Q: Approximation? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: Okay. I'm just trying to get a sense 25 of how long it took before medical attendants were --
3011 were administering aid to Mr. Cottrelle. 2 And my sense is that it was probably ten 3 (10) to fifteen (15) minutes from the time she first came 4 -- Gina George first came from the Park to the time -- 5 A: I wouldn't say it was that long. 6 Q: Say it was less than that. You're 7 aware that young people have certain rights when taken 8 into police custody? 9 A: Everyone has rights when they get 10 into police custody. 11 Q: And young people have additional -- 12 A: There's additional cautions that you 13 read young people. 14 Q: And the right to have a parent or 15 guardian present? 16 A: That's -- that's correct. 17 Q: Those sort of rights? And we know 18 that when his mother requested to accompany him to the 19 hospital, she was refused. 20 Do you know who made that decision? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: And in your opinion is that proper 23 police procedure? 24 A: Nothing to do with police procedure. 25 Q: It wasn't improper to take somebody
3021 into custody without a parent present especially when the 2 parent had requested to be present? 3 A: I -- I've lost your -- your meaning. 4 Q: Sorry. I just want to know, is it -- 5 is it standard practice for a parent to be refused to 6 accompany -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 8 think this question is unfair given the evidence we've 9 heard that it was the ambulance personnel that told the 10 mom that she couldn't go in the ambulance. 11 It's not related to police or police 12 conduct. 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I don't believe My 14 Friend asked who made the decision. She asked about 15 standard police procedure with young people. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It might be 17 important to find out -- ask the first question first. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: And -- and Mr. 19 Commissioner, my point is when we have an evidentiary 20 basis at this Inquiry that it was the ambulance personnel 21 that -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- dealt with that 24 issue, it is not fair or proper to turn to an officer and 25 somehow make it a police prerogative.
3031 MS. AMANDA ROGERS: Perhaps then I -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 3 that's right. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. AMANDA ROGERS: 6 Q: -- should just ask when he was placed 7 under arrest for mischief, was his mother present at that 8 time at the hospital? 9 A: I don't know exactly when that was 10 done. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are all my 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Good afternoon, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 21 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Slack. 22 We're moving along quite quickly. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know. 24 I was going to say, good evening, but not quite. 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: No, no, not yet.
3041 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not quite. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Not yet. We won't 3 get there with my questions. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 6 Q: But I am going to follow up that line 7 of questioning regarding your instructions to -- is it 8 Officer Boon at the time on the roadway for arresting 9 young Mr. Cottrelle? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay. Did you give him instructions 12 as to where to affect this arrest of Mr. Cottrelle? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. So you didn't tell him to 15 arrest him before or after he got on the ambulance. 16 That was a decision made by the officer? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. You're aware that he 19 didn't arrest him until he was en route to the hospital? 20 A: I don't know when that was done. 21 Q: All right. With respect to what was 22 being done on that roadway there, you gave a number of 23 issues that you were trying to resolve by asking for the 24 arrest of Mr. Cottrelle, all of which related to this 25 vehicle being on the roadway with Mr. Cottrelle in the
3051 back, correct? 2 A: I don't understand your question. 3 Q: The incident on the roadway occurred 4 because somebody came out of the Camp and was looking for 5 assistance for an injured person, correct? The incident 6 -- the incident at the -- 7 A: I'm not sure what you mean by that. 8 Q: -- entrance to the Army Camp on the 9 roadway involving the ambulances that we're talking 10 about; that's then incident I'm referring to. 11 It came about as a result of the car 12 coming out of the Army Camp and asking for police 13 assistance for an injured person, correct? 14 A: Asking for an ambulance? 15 Q: Right. Asking for your assistance in 16 getting an ambulance? 17 A: And then -- that's correct. 18 Q: Right. That was the incident that 19 was occurring on the roadway and that was the incident 20 you were trying to resolve by asking your officer to 21 arrest Mr. Cottrelle, correct? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. I'm going to suggest to 24 you that it was a fairly stressful situation by that 25 point in time in the evening. You'd heard gunfire down
3061 to the north end of the road. And you'd had a briefing 2 earlier that night about guns or possible guns in the 3 occupiers' hands, correct? 4 A: You're telling me that? 5 Q: I am telling you that, correct, that 6 that was the -- 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: -- fact -- 9 A: There was a briefing. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: There was a -- I heard shots. 12 Q: Right. And you moved your checkpoint 13 that evening about an hour before the shots occurred at 14 the end of the roadway, correct? That checkpoint had 15 been moved well in advance of hearing any gunshots at the 16 end of the road? 17 A: The checkpoint was moved north. 18 Q: Right. About an hour before -- 19 A: Closer to the corner of East Parkway 20 and Army Camp. 21 Q: Right. And when you moved -- I was 22 listening to your evidence and you referred to the use of 23 the headlights and the spotlights on your position as a 24 jack lighting. Do you remember -- 25 A: Yes.
3071 Q: -- using that term? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And is that your term or was that a 4 term generally being used by the police at that point in 5 time to describe this particular type of event? 6 A: That was a -- a term, from the very 7 first day I became a policeman, became familiar with. 8 It's a bit of a colloquialism, if you will, to describe 9 how they hunt -- poachers hunt deer at night. 10 Q: Right. So you -- 11 A: It's called jack lighting. 12 Q: So you felt you were in a hunting 13 situation and you were being jack lighted by people with 14 guns? 15 A: And we were the potential targets. 16 Q: Right. That's how you felt at that 17 point in time, the night of September the 6th, correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Right. But this use of spotlights, 20 or the use of headlights, had been happening the night of 21 September the 4th and the night if September the 5th, 22 correct? 23 A: I'm not aware of that. 24 Q: You weren't aware that that, in fact, 25 was happening?
3081 A: No. 2 Q: You were manning -- or you were 3 speaking with the people that were manning the 4 checkpoints throughout the day on the 5th and the 6th? 5 A: No. We would -- we would have 6 rotated shifts. 7 Q: No, I appreciate that. But you had a 8 chance to speak with people who were manning the 9 checkpoints on the 5th and the 6th? 10 A: Just through the briefings. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: It didn't come out at the briefings. 13 Q: So you were never aware that at any 14 point in time people had been using car lights or 15 spotlights to light up the various checkpoints on Army 16 Camp Road? 17 A: No, I wasn't. 18 Q: Does that come as a surprise to you, 19 that that was occurring before this particular point in 20 time on September the 6th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: We have evidence, it's in your 23 notebook at Tab 5. You can turn to that. Do you have 24 that before you? 25 A: Tab 5, I have a statement from P/C
3091 Horzempa. 2 Q: Right. And at the bottom of P/C 3 Marissen's statement -- 4 A: Marissen or Horzempa? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 5 I have 6 Horzempa. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm told it's at Tab 8 6. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 6. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 12 Q: Only my page are wrong. So at Tab 6 13 you have what I am looking at, which is 1146 in the top 14 right corner. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: No I don't have that one. 19 Q: Do you have -- 20 A: I have 1145, Statement of Harry 21 Marissen, preceding Tab is 830, Statement of P/C 22 Horzempa. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3101 Q: That's all right. We've run into a 2 glitch that I'm just going to skip over at the moment. 3 At that point in time, when you had these spotlights and 4 the headlights positioned on you is that when you moved 5 the people from the checkpoint into the ditch? 6 A: As a result of the headlights and the 7 spotlights. 8 Q: Right, right. That was a better 9 position to be in and it was a safer position for you at 10 that point in time, correct? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And that was something that the 13 people at the Checkpoint hadn't had to do up until that 14 point in time, right? It was a novel approach? 15 A: Not that I was aware of that they had 16 done that before. 17 Q: All right. So you weren't advised 18 that there was spotlights that had been used the nights 19 before and you weren't aware that this was the first time 20 people had gone into the ditch? 21 A: I wasn't aware of the spotlights 22 being used the night before. I don't know if people took 23 up positions in the ditch the night before or the two (2) 24 nights before. 25 Q: If I can turn to a different topic,
3111 Tab 4 I'm hoping we have the same pages here. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: All right. 6 Q: It should be page 3 of your Tab, but 7 at the top right there's a page 23 of 42. Tab 4? 8 A: That's the logger tape? 9 Q: There's a map that you weren't able 10 to identify and then the next page is a listing of 11 entries for Checkpoint C, it would appear. 12 At the top right corner there's a fax, re: 13 line 23 of 42. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: Do you have that before you? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: All right. If you go just from an 18 overview, I understand from your evidence that this was a 19 type of recording that was used simply to record 20 statements made over the radio? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: All right. And if I understood your 23 evidence correctly, you started -- or you continued this 24 log a couple of pages later when you came on at 7:16 that 25 evening?
3121 A: Correct. 2 Q: But, what we have on these pages are 3 simply the result of the person who was manning that 4 recording or that log of what was said over the radio, is 5 that fair? 6 A: Fair. 7 Q: All right. So if I look at the 8 bottom -- near the bottom of that page, there's a 9 reference to a time of 12:52, do you see that time? It 10 may be a little blurred but -- 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: It's 12:52 across from that is a D, 13 what would that refer to? 14 A: Checkpoint. 15 Q: Okay. So that's Checkpoint and above 16 that it says, D/SGT. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: What would that refer to? 19 A: Detective Sergeant. 20 Q: All right. So if we go to the D, if 21 I'm reading it correctly it says: 22 "Driver failed to identify, what 23 action?" 24 See that? 25 A: Yes.
3131 Q: Then the next line there's an L-1, 2 what would that be? 3 A: Lima 1. 4 Q: And then it says: 5 "Advised let go this time tell driver 6 in the future fail to identify will 7 result in HTA arrest." 8 You see that entry? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is that consistent with what was 11 occurring at the checkpoints, that at times people were 12 not identifying themselves and driving past the 13 checkpoints with warnings? 14 A: At that point in time? 15 Q: Yeah, to your knowledge? 16 A: To my knowledge, no I didn't know 17 that. 18 Q: All right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: True to my promise, Mr. Commissioner, 23 I'm finished my questions. Thank you, Sergeant. Thank 24 you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
3141 Mr. Scullion. 2 Ms. Johnson...? 3 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good afternoon, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION By MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 9 Q: Good afternoon, sir. My name is 10 Colleen Johnson and I'm here representing the Chippewas 11 of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation and the Chiefs of 12 Ontario today. 13 I have just a couple of areas that I'd 14 like to ask you questions about. First, I'd like you to 15 turn to Tab 11 for me. Now this is a statement by 16 William Leonard Sword. 17 Do you know that individual? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Okay. And did you see him on the 20 evening of September 6th? If you might just take a -- a 21 moment to review his statement that may help to refresh 22 your memory. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3151 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 2 we're looking at an excerpt of the statement, Ms. 3 Johnson. 4 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: It is. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A couple of 6 pages of it, yes. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 9 Q: I'm sorry if you go to page 5 of 10 that, the second page in for you because it starts at 11 page 4, right? 12 And if you go -- do you see where it says 13 'Checkpoint Delta'? It starts with capital letters, it 14 kind of stands out a bit. 15 "He checked his eyes, his limbs, et 16 cetera and getting radio transmission 17 from Checkpoint Delta. I was ordered 18 by John Slack. 19 He was requesting an ambulance and if 20 'Doc' was available?" 21 Do you see that? 22 A: I see that. 23 Q: Does it say page 5 at the top of your 24 notes, sir? 25 A: Yes, it does.
3161 Q: Okay. And it's -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Six (6) or 3 seven (7) lines down. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 6 Q: Yes. Starting at the 7th, the 8th 7 line down. Do you see your name there, sir? 8 A: Do I see my name there? 9 Q: Well it says: 10 "I was ordered by John Slack." 11 A: I see my name there. 12 Q: Okay. He was requesting an ambulance 13 and if doc was available. Right after your name. 14 Do you see that portion? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And who was 'doc', sir? 17 A: I believe 'doc' was the previous 18 witness. 19 Q: And his name is? Slomer. Would that 20 be the individual? 21 A: Ed or Ted or... 22 Q: And who -- what was he that night? 23 Was he the TRU medic that night? 24 A: As far as know. 25 Q: Okay. And you were requesting his
3171 availability and can you -- can you advise, do you have a 2 recollection of that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Do you dispute William Sword's 5 notes? From as far as you've read, sir? 6 A: I don't understand his notes. 7 Q: Do you dispute that he says that you 8 -- you asked if doc was available? 9 A: I -- I have no recollection of asking 10 for doc. 11 Q: Okay. So you may have asked that? 12 A: I have no recollection of asking for 13 doc. I asked for an ambulance. 14 Q: Okay. And William Sword is a 15 constable I assume, is that correct? 16 A: At that time he was a constable. 17 Q: Okay. And did you see him on that 18 evening? Do you have any recollection of that? 19 A: Constable Sword was a member of the 20 Number 2 District ERT team. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And he would have been at the same 23 shift briefing on Octo -- or September 6th at 18:00 hours 24 that I was at. After the briefing was concluded, he 25 would have been assigned out to a checkpoint and I did
3181 not see him for the rest of that evening. 2 Q: Okay. Would you have seen him -- 3 seen him at briefings after that? 4 A: He was a member of Number 2 District 5 ERT team that I was on and he would have been at those 6 briefings. 7 Q: Okay. I'm going to ask that this be 8 made the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-16 -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, Mr. 11 Commissioner. Based on what? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've had 13 very liberal rules regarding -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: We -- we have 15 extraordinary liberal rules -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- marking 17 things as exhibits. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: But, Mr. Commissioner-- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's 20 really no basis for marking this as an exhibit. 21 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Mr. Commissioner, 22 it's my understanding that Constable Sword will not be 23 called here as a witness and there are -- there is 24 further information in these notes that I think is 25 relevant and that the Commission ought to be aware of.
3191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I'm 2 aware of it. Everything that is a document in our 3 database, I'm aware of everything. 4 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: All right. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it isn't 6 elevated any -- 7 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- by making 9 it an exhibit. 10 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 14 Q: Sir, did you have any conversations 15 with Constable Sword following the events of September 16 6th with regards to a person who was arrested that 17 evening? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 20 whether there had been an odour of alcoholic beverage or 21 whether he was drunk -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- with Constable Sword? Sir, I'm 24 now going to ask you to turn to Tab 10 and you indicate - 25 - and this is I believe notebook page 95. And this would
3201 be an entry from September 11th. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I'm on that page. 6 Q: Okay. And do you have an independent 7 recollection of being briefed that day and this is the 8 day of the funeral of Dudley George, sir? You indicate 9 at 07:00 hours there's a briefing at the arena. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Do you have a recollection of that 12 briefing? 13 A: No. 14 Q: We've heard prior testimony from 15 witness Leblanc on May 23rd and for My Friends' benefit 16 it was at pages 187 and later referred to page 256 that 17 some of the comments at the briefing included information 18 that the beer stores and the LCBO were sold out. 19 Do you recall hearing that information at 20 the briefing? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Do you recall any discussion in that 23 regard amongst officers regarding the beer store being 24 sold out on the day of the funeral or at any other time? 25 A: No.
3211 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 2 the drinking that would go on at a supposed wake after 3 the funeral? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Ms. Johnson. 9 Mr. Roy...? 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: Mr. Commissioner, my -- 11 my areas have been adequately covered by other counsel so 12 I don't have any other questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 14 Mr. Roy. 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: No problem. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 17 do you have any questions? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, if we 19 could have one (1) minute I think we only be one (1) 20 minute. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 22 minute is fine. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3221 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: I will in fact be 2 one (1) moment, Commissioner. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 5 Q: Sergeant Slack, you testified when 6 you were being asked questions by Ms. Hensel that at the 7 -- following the events, the confrontation as you call it 8 in the sandy parking lot, when the car comes out of the 9 Army Base and approaches you at Checkpoint 'D' where 10 you're in the ditch with the officers; you recall that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And My Friend asked you -- her words 13 I believe were whether the officers who approached the 14 car to clear it, whether they had their weapons trained 15 on the car, right? 16 Do you remember that question? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And your answer was that they had 19 their rifles in a ready position, correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And I take it that the reason why the 22 rifles were in a ready position was because there was a 23 concern about weapons in the car; is that correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: That's correct? Okay. If I can take
3231 you please to Tab 23 -- sorry, your tab is 13 of your 2 binder. 3 A: I don't have a Tab 13. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: If you go to 8 Region 11. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 10 logger tape? 11 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: It is. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: It's -- it's just 14 a brief clarification, Commissioner. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 17 Q: And My Friend asked you in relation 18 to the call sign of 2424 and whether that was Constables 19 Lorch and Bell and I just wanted to clarify we've had 20 evidence at the Inquiry that the soft call sign for 2424 21 was actually Constables Gransden and Dougan, is that 22 possible from your recollection? 23 A: They would have recycled the call 24 signs depending on what shift was working. 25 Q: Okay. But, if the evidence we have
3241 regarding those call signs is that it was actual 2 Constables Gransden and Dougan, do you accept that? 3 A: At the same time? 4 Q: Yeah. In other words, Constables 5 Lorch and Bell were not 2424, they were 2411? 6 A: No, I didn't know that. 7 Q: Okay. That's fine. In relation to 8 the Officers dealing with the persons who came out of the 9 Army base in the vehicle following the confrontation, I 10 take it that at no time did you hear any officers cursing 11 at those people? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: And I take it you did not hear any 14 racial remarks? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: And I take it that you were standing 17 close enough that had such comments been made you would 18 have been in a position to hear them? 19 A: Yes, I would have. 20 Q: Okay, thank you. Those are all my 21 questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 Ms. Hensel...? 24 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Just one (1) point 25 of clarification. The logger tape transcript that Ms.
3251 Gleitman referred to, was actually -- it's been marked as 2 Exhibit P-1630 just for the record? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And I have no 5 further questions for Sergeant Slack so unless he has 6 anything else he would like to say, I would like to take 7 this opportunity on behalf -- on my own behalf and on 8 behalf of the Commission for his assistance here today 9 and for coming. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much for coming and giving us your evidence. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very kindly. 16 17 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll call 20 it a day now and return tomorrow morning at 9:00. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 22 adjourned until tomorrow Tuesday, June the 6th at 9:00 23 a.m. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 5:42 p.m.
3261 2 3 4 5 Certified Correct 6 7 8 9 10 11 ___________________________ 12 Carol Geehan 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25