1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 June 1st, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 24 Maureen Smith ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Robert Smith ) 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) 14 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Jennifer Gleitman ) 24 Ian McGilp ) (np) 25 Annie Leeks ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Julian Roy ) (np) 5 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 6 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 Discussion 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumes 8 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 15 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 83 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 219 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-453 Document No. 2003080 Sarnia Observer 4 article "Apology Issued for Ipperwash 5 Memorabilia" 30 6 P-454 Document 1001056 e-mail from J. Carson 7 to P. Duffield, N. Mansell, R. Fox re: 8 Ipperwash Park Activity 32 9 P-455 Document 1001044 e-mail from J. Carson 10 to P. Duffield, N. Mansell, R. Fox, W. 11 J. Crate, L. Dotey re: Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park 34 13 P-456 Document 6000364 Anonymous letter 14 September 01/'99 49 15 P-457 Document 2000556 "Ipperwash Review" 16 by OPP February 21/'96 56 17 P-458 C.D. Rom of OPP T-Shirt with "E.R.T., 18 TRU, '95' Logo and OPP coffee Mug with 19 "Team Ipperwash, '95' Logo 76 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:08 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: Good morning, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, everybody. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Mr. 12 Commissioner. On the issues of discipline with respect 13 to the tape that was marked yesterday as Exhibit 4... 14 THE REGISTRAR: Fifty-two (52). 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fifty-two (52). I 16 think Mr. Sandler wants to make... 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: Good morning, 18 Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 morning, Mr. Sandler. 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: Perhaps I should 22 advise you where we're at. When we -- when left our 23 episode last -- Oh, I -- I've been asked just to wait 24 for a moment because Ms. Jones had headed out just for 25 two (2) minutes and she should be present when this


1 discussion takes place. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We hope. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: I gather she'll be 4 back just in two (2) minutes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, we'll 9 hold it down, is that all right, Mr. Millar? Is there 10 anything else we should do or should we just hold it 11 down? Should we just deal with this? 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yeah. I don't want to 13 start...oh, she's here. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 15 take a minute. Do you want to confer with Ms. Jones 16 or...? No, she's -- all right. 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, Commissioner... 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. MARK SANDLER: Mr. Commissioner, when 22 we left off last night, I'd indicated on behalf of the 23 OPP that we -- we certainly wanted to -- to find a way to 24 bring forward at the Inquiry, the fact that officers were 25 disciplined in relation to the matter that was dealt with


1 yesterday. 2 And also the matter of what has been 3 called 'mugs in T-shirts' which -- which has also been 4 part of the public record previously and will be dealt 5 with by Mr. Millar this morning. 6 And perhaps I should indicate to Your 7 Honour where we're at in that regard. In relation to the 8 Dyke and Whitehead tape, as I understand it, Ms. Jones on 9 behalf of the OPPA is content that Deputy Commissioner 10 Carson this morning articulate the details of the 11 discipline that took place in relation to those two (2) 12 individuals. 13 Deputy Commissioner Carson knew in a 14 general way what had happened but -- but not the 15 particulars that he'll describe in which he's informed 16 himself of overnight. 17 I should indicate that there's a statutory 18 scheme that's in place and this is relevant to -- to the 19 T-shirts and mugs as well. There's a statutory scheme 20 under the Police Services Act and I don't pretend to be 21 entirely conversant with -- with all of the nuances. 22 But as I understand it when informal 23 discipline takes place, then that's not the subject of a 24 public hearing. The Act is structured in a way that -- 25 that a public hearing does not take place. A record is


1 kept in these cases for two (2) years and then the 2 records are suppose to be expunged. 3 Whether or not that always take place in 4 accordance with the strict timetables is -- is another 5 issue. But the scheme contemplates, as I understand it, 6 that where the member of the force, and this doesn't 7 simply apply to the OPP but the police forces generally 8 acknowledges responsibility, shows remorse and the like 9 then these are situations where informal discipline may 10 be imposed. 11 The records later expunged and they're not 12 the ma -- they're not the subject of a public hearing and 13 the officer's name is not disclosed in -- in public. 14 As well there's provisions under the 15 Police Services Act under Section 69 I'm advised, 16 subsections 8 to 10, that imposes prohibitions upon the 17 disclosure of some or all of the information relating to 18 these matters in a civil proceeding. 19 And -- and I again, we haven't done the 20 research overnight as to whether that applies to a public 21 hearing and to what extent, but one could see how the 22 same rationale would apply when one looks at what the -- 23 what the discipline regime is all about and what's it 24 intended to accomplish. 25 So the way that we've tried to deal with


1 this in the short term is that in relation to officers 2 Dyke and Whitehead, the issue is a non-issue. Because in 3 the course of leading evidence at the Inquiry, Mr. Millar 4 quite appropriately went through the tape, identified the 5 participants in the tape. 6 So it's difficult to see what privacy 7 interest remains in relation to those individuals, I 8 should say that the OPP, back when this came to light in 9 2004, also publicly reflected the nature of the 10 discipline that had taken place. 11 So we -- we don't see a privacy interest 12 remaining in relation to those two (2) individuals but 13 out of an abundance of caution, we -- we obtained 14 instructions from Ms. Jones that we could proceed on that 15 basis. 16 On the -- on the mugs and T-shirts again 17 Deputy Commissioner Carson is aware in a general way that 18 individuals were disciplined, as I understand it, 19 individuals that came to the scene after -- after the 20 shooting and after September the 7th as I understand it. 21 But we've asked to see whether we can 22 obtain particulars of the range of discipline that was 23 imposed for the mugs and T-shirts. We don't have that 24 right now and I can't undertake to what extent we'll get 25 it given what records may or may not remain in relation


1 to that item. 2 But as I've indicated to you, 3 Commissioner, we too would like the fact that discipline 4 did occur to be on the public record. So I again spoke 5 to Ms. Jones about -- about this issue. 6 And I believe that there's no objection on 7 the part of the OPPA if Deputy Commissioner Carson 8 articulates in a general way that there was discipline, 9 will inform himself to the extent to which we can get 10 that information as to the particulars of that discipline 11 -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think as 13 to whether it exists. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: And to whether it 15 exists. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: So -- so we'll make 18 those efforts to facilitate the work of the Inquiry. And 19 again the mugs and T-shirts were comfortable doing that 20 because the mugs and T-shirts are already a matter of 21 public record. 22 So we don't get into the -- the vexing 23 issue about whether or not we could unilaterally 24 volunteer information in relation to informal discipline 25 where -- where even the misconduct has not made its way


1 into a public forum as -- as to this point in time. So, 2 that makes sense. That's how we propose to proceed. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do want to 4 continue. Yes -- you're going to have the opportunity to 5 cross-examine, Mr. Falconer, I presume. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- I understand 7 that. The submission My Friend just made though from the 8 point of view of Aboriginal Legal Services there -- 9 there's an issue that he's raised and -- and it's 10 appropriate to address it now. I'm not trying to -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. My 13 Friend has been unclear as to, with great respect, as to 14 the -- the issue of what he's talking about when he talks 15 about the statutory regime. 16 My understanding of what he just talked 17 about is what occurs in the context of informal 18 discipline. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: In the context of a 21 charge being laid pursuant to the Police Services Act, 22 much of what My Friend just referred to, doesn't apply. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 24 right. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- but My


1 Friend never explained to us where we're -- where we are 2 with Officers Whitehead and Dyke and -- and leaving it to 3 -- leaving it to Deputy Carson to try to explain this. 4 When Mr. Sandler has an opportunity, I'd encourage him to 5 simply let us know, are we in and informal discipline 6 setting. 7 And if we are in an informal discipline 8 setting, we should know that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have the 10 impression that that's what he was saying. Am I wrong 11 that those matters were in the informal disciplinary -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Whitehead and Dyke. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. Well I wouldn't 14 have been saying -- I wouldn't have been boring you with 15 that whole analysis if we were dealing with a public 16 hearing -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 18 I thought. 19 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- because that would 20 be a matter of public record and we could deal with it 21 without getting consents from Ms. Jones and talking about 22 the statutory regime. So yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. Tank 25 you. And I appreciate that from the point of view of --


1 of what is discipline and what is not. That makes a lot 2 more sense. So we're talking about informal discipline 3 that was meted out in respect to this matter. Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we carry 5 on and there'll be opportunities I'm sure that we -- at 6 some point in time we may have to deal with the issue 7 that you touched upon as to the relationship between the 8 public inquiry and the statutory regime. 9 I don't know about that but that still 10 remains to be seen. In the meantime we still have Mr. 11 Carson on the stand and I would very much like to 12 continue with his examination. So we can move on. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, thank you very 14 much, Commissioner. 15 16 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumes: 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Now, if we could take a step back 20 with respect to Messrs. Whitehead and Dyke and as a 21 result of the inquiries that you have made, the 22 discipline that was meted out with respect to those two 23 (2) officers, was it formal or informal? 24 A: Informal discipline, sir. 25 Q: And what happened with respect to


1 those two (2) officers? 2 A: Okay. I'll deal with them 3 individually. 4 Q: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: In respect to Constable Dyke, 9 Constable Dyke when this came to light, had retired from 10 the OPP and was at that time had returned on a contract 11 basis. 12 As a conclusion of the investigation into 13 this issue, his -- his services were no longer utilized 14 by the OPP in any way. 15 Q: And so was his contract terminated 16 then? 17 A: He was no longer -- he was no longer 18 utilized in any capacity. He -- he did not work a day 19 after the investigation was complete. 20 Q: Okay. And do you know when that took 21 place? When he stopped working for the OPP? 22 A: Oh I -- I don't have the file with 23 the exact dates. But I know at the conclusion of the 24 investigation when this information was brought to light, 25 it -- it was dealt with immediately.


1 Q: Okay. And if I could turn to a 2 different subject for a moment. And perhaps we could put 3 up Inquiry Document 200-3080. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And, what I'm going to turn to now is 8 an issue of an insignia with respect to certain mugs and 9 T-shirts. Oh, excuse me, excuse me. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's 11 another... 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Mr. Whitehead, what happened to 15 Constable Whitehead? Thank you, Mr. Sandler. 16 A: Thank you. Constable Whitehead, as 17 identified yesterday in the tape, Constable Whitehead was 18 the second officer involved. Constable Dyke was the one 19 that made the, I guess I'd categorize him as the most 20 overt comments of the two and -- and Constable Whitehead, 21 quite frankly, didn't address the comments and his 22 conduct was certainly inappropriate as well. There is 23 certainly an expectation that he would address such -- 24 such comments as that. 25 What happened in -- in Whitehead's case


1 when brought to his attention, he readily accepted 2 responsibility for his actions. He, at the first 3 opportunity, accepted informal discipline of twenty-four 4 (24) hours. 5 He also was -- he took a four (4) day 6 First Nations awareness training and I would categorize 7 his response to this as being quite remorseful and he 8 apologized for his personal behaviour and it's my 9 understanding that he -- the experience with the cultural 10 awareness training was certainly a benefit in his case. 11 Q: And when you say he received a 12 penalty of twenty-four (24) hours, what does that mean? 13 A: That means he loses twenty-four (24) 14 hours of -- of pay out of his credits. 15 Q: And, twenty-four (24) hours in -- 16 A: Of -- of work pay. 17 Q: Of work pay, but how many days would 18 that be? 19 A: I'm sorry? 20 Q: How many -- 21 A: Three (3) -- three (3) days pay. 22 Q: Three (3) days pay? 23 A: Yes. Which is -- which is the -- the 24 amount allowed under the Act, up to twenty-four (24) 25 hours.


1 Q: Oh, so the -- he got the maximum for 2 an informal disposition? 3 A: Under -- yes. You can go from a 4 range from zero to twenty-four (24) hours in -- in that 5 scheme. 6 Q: And, he got the maximum under that 7 part of the scheme? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And, Constable Whitehead's still -- 10 still with the OPP? 11 A: Yes, he is. 12 Q: And now, if I could turn to another 13 subject, the subject of -- 14 A: And -- and, if I -- if I could just 15 comment -- 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: -- and I know yesterday there were -- 18 there was some commentary about my involvement or 19 knowledge of -- of this particular incident. 20 I -- I was clearly aware of the incident. 21 I was clearly aware that informal discipline had taken 22 place. 23 At the time when this took place, I was 24 not the Deputy Commissioner of the OPP and not a member 25 of the Commissioner's Committee, I was a bureau commander


1 of one (1) of the bureaus of information technology at 2 General Headquarters. And, as such, I certainly was 3 aware the Commissioner's Committee had taken steps and 4 there was certainly public attention to this. 5 I was keenly aware of the organization's 6 position and I wholeheartedly support it, but I just 7 wanted to make the record clear that I was not a 8 member of the Commissioner's Committee and privileged to 9 some of these specific discussions around this matter -- 10 Q: Okay. Can you -- 11 A: -- as it was brought to its 12 conclusion. 13 Q: Thank you. Can you tell us what the 14 Commissioner's Committee is? 15 A: Oh, the Commissioner's Committee is 16 the committee comprised of the Commissioner of the 17 Ontario Provincial Police and the four (4) Deputy 18 Commissioners. 19 Q: And, it deals with what types of 20 issues? 21 A: Well, the Commissioner's Committee is 22 -- is the executive committee of the Force, so it is the 23 -- the final decision maker of -- of the organization. 24 Q: And so, issues such as informal 25 resolution would be dealt with by that committee?


1 A: Yeah. The professional standards 2 bureau reports to the provincial commander of corporate 3 services and that particular command is responsible for 4 discipline of the organization and matters of discipline 5 will be discussed at Commissioner's Committee. 6 Q: And, was the determination of the 7 penalty made at the Commissioner's Committee level? 8 A: I wasn't party to that discussion so 9 I -- I really don't have that information of the 10 mechanics of that particular incident. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: The -- as a result of the 16 investigation of the comments that we heard yesterday on 17 the tape, involving Messrs. Whitehead and Dyke the -- I 18 characterized those comments in a certain way. 19 How did the OPP, as a result of its 20 investigation characterize those comments? 21 A: Quite frankly, I don't -- I don't 22 know how you'd put into words the -- I mean, words like 23 'inappropriate'. 24 Q: I used the word 'racist'. 25 A: Well, that's fair. I understand how


1 that certainly could be -- it's just totally not 2 acceptable, intolerable, quite frankly and I can 3 appreciate that would be perceived racist. 4 Q: And did the investigation determine 5 that, or what was the result of the investigation in 6 terms of -- or do you know? 7 How did the -- the people who investigated 8 this incident, how did they characterize the comments? 9 A: It would be characterized as 10 discreditable conduct for the purposes of -- of a Police 11 Service Act investigation. 12 Q: Okay. The -- if I could now turn to 13 another subject and -- and that's the issue of mugs and 14 T-shirts and it's my understanding that there were 15 certain... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: When did you learn of the existence 20 of mugs and T-shirts with certain insignia on those mugs 21 and T-shirts? 22 A: That came to light in the weeks post 23 September 6. 24 Q: Post September 6. And perhaps, 25 Commissioner, we could just take two (2) minutes and get


1 the technical problem fixed up. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sorry, Commissioner. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Up on the screen we've got a copy of 11 a newspaper article. It's the Sarnia Observer and I 12 don't have the date but it's some time in 1996, after 13 July 17th. 14 It's Inquiry Document 2003080. And on the 15 screen is an image of one of the crests used on, I 16 believe in this case, the mugs. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And there was a separate image used 19 with respect to the T-shirts? 20 A: that's right. 21 Q: And that was a -- the T-shirts bore 22 the letters 'ERT' and 'TRU' with a horizontal white 23 feather, is that correct? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And how did you learn about the mugs


1 and T-shirts? 2 A: The -- the mugs, in -- in a week or 3 two (2) after the incident, I was working out of the 4 Detachment at Grande Bend with Chief Superintendent Coles 5 and one afternoon I went to the Forest Detachment and -- 6 to deal with an issue and as I was leaving the main 7 building of the Forest Detachment, approximately 4:00 in 8 the afternoon, the Staff Sergeant who was in charge at 9 the time, not the local Detachment Commander but one of 10 the Staff Sergeants from out of town who were providing 11 some assistance, as I was exiting the main -- the general 12 office into the garage area, he commented to me that the 13 officers were having some mugs made. 14 And I said, Oh, and he said they're a 15 shoulder flash with an arrow through it and I immediately 16 stopped, turned to him, and suggested they'd better not 17 be and that's -- that's the first that the mugs came to 18 mind, or came to my attention. 19 Q: And can you tell us, you said it was 20 after September 6th, approximately how long after? 21 A: I'm going to guess a week. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: And it was in that same timeframe 24 within a week or a few days of that, and I was again at 25 the Forest Detachment and my vehicle was parked in the


1 parking lot adjacent to the Detachment and as I was 2 walking back to my cruiser to leave, one of the 3 constables from out of town who was assigned here 4 temporarily, saw me and he said, were you one of the 5 incident commanders that was here? 6 I said, Yes, and he said, Oh, we had some 7 T-shirts made and here's one and -- and that was the 8 first seen I'd seen of the T-shirts. 9 Q: And then what did you do? 10 A: Actually I didn't do anything at that 11 point in time. The issue of the T-shirts was raised -- 12 quite frankly, I didn't really pay much attention to the 13 T-shirt. 14 What has happened over time -- excuse me, 15 is in any major project or event it is -- has been kind 16 of a customary thing that T-shirts for the event are made 17 up, like whether it's a big project like, say, the ice 18 storm in eastern Ontario or some sort of a major event or 19 a major project that people have T-shirts made up that 20 they're at. 21 In this particular case, clearly T-shirts 22 in -- in this -- in the -- in the face of the 23 circumstances certainly very insensitive to the family, 24 of course, and I know Commissioner O'Grady apologized at 25 the time in regards to that. And, as a result, there was


1 an investigation, excuse me, into the cups and the T- 2 shirts conducted to determine who was responsible for 3 having them made. 4 Q: And what was the result of that 5 investigation? 6 A: As a result of that, as my 7 understanding as -- as Mr. Sandler alluded to earlier, 8 while I don't have the specific names, I do know that 9 several officers were disciplined pursuant to the 10 informal discipline process for the cups and the T- 11 shirts. 12 The range of penalties, I -- I don't know 13 off the top of my head, but I am making endeavours to 14 determine what that might be. 15 Q: And, the officers who were involved, 16 were they officers involved at -- in this incident prior 17 to the evening of September 6th or after September 6th? 18 A: My understanding is, the officers 19 involved were -- were members from outside of the area 20 who had not been involved prior to and, in fact, had been 21 posted here temporarily post September 6th, probably post 22 September 7th, for the most part. 23 Q: Post September 7th, for the most 24 part? 25 A: That's my understanding, yes.


1 Q: And, the T-shirt that you saw, can 2 you describe the logo on the T-shirt? 3 A: Well, as you alluded to, sir, it was 4 basically an OPP shoulder flash and I believe it had 5 'TRU' on one (1) side of the crest, 'ERT' on the opposite 6 side and a -- a feather horizontal across the bottom of 7 it. 8 Q: And, did it have the words, 'Team 9 Ipperwash '95' on it as this logo does? 10 A: I'm not sure. 11 Q: And, the -- when you say -- you said 12 when you first saw the T-shirt, approximately -- this 13 would, I guess, be approximately two (2) weeks after the 14 events because it was a -- I think you said a week after 15 the -- the mugs where you told the sergeant that they 16 better not be making the mugs? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: The -- that you didn't do anything at 19 the time and -- 20 A: No, I was -- I -- in the -- in the -- 21 I was getting -- getting -- putting materials in the 22 trunk of my car at -- at that time. The officer handed 23 me the T-shirt and basically I threw it in the -- the 24 trunk with the rest of my kit that I had in there and, 25 quite frankly, I didn't -- I didn't spend a whole lot of


1 time analysing what it was or even what the logo was. 2 Q: You didn't look at it? 3 A: I -- I saw it and just tossed it in 4 there. I mean, it wasn't something I stopped and looked 5 at and said, Oh, well, you know, this is that or 6 something else. It certainly didn't strike me at that 7 moment in the same way, I guess, as the -- the arrow 8 through the shoulder flash. 9 I mean, there was certainly clearly a -- a 10 different level of inappropriateness, I guess, if I -- if 11 I -- the -- the T-shirts are certainly insensitive and - 12 - and we certainly have a policy that they will not be 13 made in those kinds of circumstances at all and the -- 14 the cups are clearly unacceptable and it's just 15 absolutely inappropriate. 16 Q: In the article that's on the paper, 17 it indicates in the third paragraph at the third column 18 of the last paragraph: 19 "Aboriginal Canadians reacted with 20 disgust at the memorabilia saying the 21 arrow and feathers symbolized dead 22 warriors." 23 Did you understand when you saw that... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Did you understand the significance 2 or -- of the white feather lying horizontal on the T- 3 shirt when you saw it back in 1995? 4 A: No, quite frankly, I didn't have an 5 appreciation that that would be construed in that manner. 6 Q: And when did you learn that, if at 7 all? 8 A: It was as a result of the subsequent 9 investigation, those kinds of details -- I learned that. 10 As a result of this particular incident, 11 policy was enacted. Anytime insignia, logo insignia, is 12 utilized in any fashion for any means, it must be 13 approved by at least a region commander level, which is 14 normally a chief superintendent or bureau commander 15 level, which is at least superintendent, before it can be 16 utilized, even if it's something that's going to be 17 gifted for a retirement gift or any other type of 18 function. 19 So, any use of this logo in the future 20 simply -- this simply couldn't happen again in the same 21 way. 22 Q: It would require -- the use of the 23 logo now requires -- and the logo -- the shoulder patches 24 -- patches the -- on -- the document on the screen and I 25 suggest we mark this as the next exhibit. It would be


1 P -- 2 THE REGISTRAR: 453, your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-453: Document No. 2003080 Sarnia 5 Observer article "Apology 6 Issued for Ipperwash 7 Memorabilia" 8 9 THE WITNESS: What -- what I can assure 10 you, they're -- everyone is well aware when it comes to 11 any kind of logo, but in particularly project memorabilia 12 or things like that, there certainly is a significant 13 awareness of what will or will not be accepted as 14 appropriate. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And the logo that's on the screen and 18 part of Exhibit P-453, the OPP logo is from a shoulder 19 flash and the -- 20 A: The shoulder flash. 21 Q: And the letter that was written by 22 then Commissioner O'Grady is -- has been marked and I 23 believe there's a copy in front of you, Exhibit P-366 24 (sic). 25 A: Perhaps we could just...


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This document was distributed 4 electronically, and have you seen this letter before -- 5 A: I was aware of it. 6 Q: -- Deputy Commissioner? And that's 7 the letter sent out by then Commissioner Thomas O'Grady? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Now, if I could take you to Book 2 of 10 the Book of Documents that's in front of you, at Tab 51, 11 it's Inquiry Document 1001056. 12 This is an e-mail from you to Mr. 13 Duffield, Nancy Mansell, Ron Fox and a number of other 14 people; Mr. Crate, Mr. Dotey, Mr. -- Superintendent 15 Baranoski I think it is, Chief Superintendent Coles and 16 Superintendent Parkin. 17 And this e-mail relates to the moving of 18 concrete barriers on to the parking lot, the sandy 19 parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what role did you play with 22 respect to this? I see you signed this for 23 Superintendent Parkin? 24 A: Quite frankly, I don't even recall 25 sending it out.


1 Q: But at the -- do you recall that at 2 the time there were some barriers put into the sandy 3 parking lot? It was at the time the -- seven (7) of the 4 occupiers were going to surrender to the police. 5 Do your recall that? 6 A: Yeah, that's in a timeframe. Chief 7 Superintendent Coles and Superintendent Parkin had been 8 doing a lot of work in regards to discussion with a 9 number of people, with the occupiers and Kettle Point. 10 And, quite frankly, I wasn't involved in those 11 discussions whatsoever. 12 And all I can anticipate here is on behalf 13 of Superintendent Parking I sent this message out to 14 notify the individuals noted. 15 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark that the 16 next exhibit. It would be -- 17 THE REGISTRAR: 454, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-454: Document 1001056 e-mail from 20 J. Carson to P. Duffield, N. 21 Mansell, R. Fox re: Ipperwash 22 Park Activity 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And then if I could take you to Book


1 2, Tab 52, it's Inquiry Document 1001044. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 3 what tab was that? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 52. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Next one. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 8 Q: This is another e-mail from you dated 9 November 10th where you report that as a result of a 10 meeting the occupiers have agreed to remove the 11 barricades. 12 It says from the public park adjacent to 13 the Park but I take it that you're referring to the 14 public parking lot? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And in fact the barricades were 17 removed? 18 A: That's my understanding, yes. 19 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 20 exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: 455, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-455: Document 1001044 e-mail from 24 J. Carson to P. Duffield, N. 25 Mansell, R. Fox, W.J. Crate,


1 L. Dotey re: Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 5 Q: And if I could take you to a document 6 -- to a document that appears at Book 2, Tab 37. And 7 this is a document -- it's Inquiry Document Number 8 6000364. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And perhaps we'll just -- and when 11 did you first see this document? 12 A: I believe this came to my attention 13 in preparation for this Inquiry. 14 Q: In preparation for attending at the 15 Inquiry? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And this document, Commissioner, was 18 produced as Document S-369 by the plaintiffs in the 19 George and Harris litigation. It's a plaintiff's 20 Supplementary Affidavit of Documents. 21 And I believe that the date stamp on it 22 should read September 1st, 1999. And you saw this 23 document during the -- your preparation for your 24 attendance here? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And there are certain issues raised 2 on page 3 with respect to the Ontario Provincial Police 3 at the bottom of page 3 and can you comment on the 4 allegation made with respect to the telephone lines? 5 A: In regards to this -- this 6 commentary, it's quite frankly devoid of fact. The issue 7 of which telephone lines are recorded and not recorded 8 are all a matter of policy which I've explained at the 9 Inquiry earlier. 10 As a matter of course, we do not record 11 administrative lines and by that, the only lines that we 12 do record in our policing business is those calls for 13 service received at communication centre. 14 The only lines that should be recorded and 15 are expected to be recorded in the command post situation 16 would be those, if the command post was being used as a 17 temporary communication centre which in fact it was not. 18 I asked that one (1) line be unrecorded 19 for the purposes of administrative use; in fact that did 20 not occur. So the insinuation here about a number of 21 lines being recorded simply are inaccurate and are no 22 basis in fact whatsoever. 23 Q: And on page 4 at paragraph 2 on page 24 4, there's an allegation with respect to -- or a comment 25 made with respect to cellular phones?


1 A: Yes. Cellular phones are very 2 problematic in the Forest area, in fact, in this date and 3 time as -- as we speak, they're not much better. 4 There is no policy about when you do or do 5 not use cellular phones. Officers so assigned cellular 6 phones have the discretion to -- to use them when it's 7 the most expedient method and there certainly is nothing 8 untoward with any officer using a cell phone for 9 communications. 10 We provide radio communications for 11 officers responding to calls and we expect them to use 12 that, but for officers who are doing other business, use 13 of cellular communications is certainly appropriate. 14 Q: And, there's a comment: 15 "Cellular phones were used frequently 16 in the command post with no capability 17 for recording these conversations." 18 A: That's correct and there was no 19 expectation of that and there still would be no 20 expectation of that and it certainly -- if that's the -- 21 the most expedient way of making a phone call because the 22 lines are busy, then that's certainly quite appropriate. 23 Q: And, there's a comment under number 3 24 with respect to light armoured vehicle. And, as I 25 understand it, when you were acting as Incident Commander


1 up to September 7th, while you tried to get light 2 armoured vehicles for the reasons you told us, none had 3 been obtained? 4 A: That's correct 5 Q: And, with respect to this allegation 6 -- or this statement -- what comments, if any, do you 7 have with respect to it? 8 A: I would suggest that this statement 9 lacks any understanding whatsoever of the purpose of 10 attempting to secure light armoured vehicles and even if 11 I had been successful in securing a light armoured 12 vehicle, it would have been for the sole purpose of 13 public or officer rescue purposes. 14 Q: And, after you stopped being Incident 15 Commander were light armoured vehicle obtained or the use 16 of them? 17 A: One (1) was borrowed from General 18 Motors in the city of London. 19 Q: And, was that unit brought to the 20 Forest area? 21 A: It was. 22 Q: And, where was -- do you know where 23 it was placed when it came to the Forest area? 24 A: It was -- it was placed in a building 25 in the -- in -- in the town of Forest.


1 Q: And, do you know how that unit was 2 marked when it was brought to Forest? 3 A: Personally, I never saw the vehicle. 4 Q: You never saw the vehicle? 5 A: I never saw it. 6 Q: And then, Item 4 deals with your 7 attendance at the Ministry of Natural Resources parking 8 lot on the evening of September 6th? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And, what comments, if any, do you 11 have with respect to this paragraph? 12 A: I would suggest this commentary lacks 13 any tactical understanding whatsoever. These particular 14 comments do not have any ability to be aware or 15 understand what the tactical process is. 16 The processes that we followed that night 17 by my movement to the forward command post is exactly how 18 tactical man -- tactical command is supposed to work. In 19 fact, it indicates that I was, I believe, out of 20 communications while I was en route, which is, in fact, 21 inaccurate. 22 I had cellular phone coverage and I was in 23 -- you heard tapes played here where I was put into the 24 TAC for my car communications. So, I had two (2) methods 25 of communication as well as a pager on my belt.


1 So, I was certainly with -- I was 2 certainly in communication ability at all times and when 3 I went forward there was another inspector who was a 4 qualified incident commander, responsible for the outer 5 perimeter security while I took responsible for inner -- 6 inner perimeter command and that command was set up in 7 textbook example of how it is supposed to be provided. 8 Q: And, the other incident commander 9 was, of course, Inspector Linton? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And, there's a specific comment: 12 "There were difficulties reported 13 contacting him while he was en route." 14 Did you ever become aware of anyone having 15 difficulties contacting you? 16 A: Nobody brought that to my attention. 17 I certainly had cellular calls that were far from very 18 good, but certainly we were able to re-establish some 19 connection or make the communication by other means, and 20 you certainly heard transmissions where I gave direction, 21 while I was en route, back from the MNR site that were 22 certainly able to be produced. 23 Q: And paragraph number 5? 24 A: It's in regards to the media tape, 25 and that would be with Sergeant Babbitt at the Pinery


1 Park. We heard that discussion, the tape was played for 2 the Inquiry. 3 Q: That was, I believe, in Exhibit 4 444(B). It was call number 71, Tab 68 and there's a 5 reference -- is that the one that you're referring to, 6 sir? 7 It's in one of the large books, Volume II 8 with the tabs in it? 9 No -- yeah, that's should be -- at Tab 68. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And if you go to page 429, sir. 14 A: Correct, that's the one I believe 15 this refers to. 16 Q: And it says -- it starts: 17 "Okay. Give me what you've got, just 18 what you think you've got." 19 And then he says -- Babbitt says: 20 "What it is John, is on tape, that I 21 will take it off of and then burn the 22 tape." 23 And what did you understand Mr. Babbitt to 24 be -- Constable Babbitt to be saying there? 25 A: Well, a couple of things. First of


1 all, I think what happened, the reality of this 2 particular situation in regards to Babbitt's comments is 3 he found himself, when I asked the question of recording 4 a superior officer without letting him know that. 5 So, obviously he was a little concerned 6 that he had done that without my knowledge. 7 Q: Right. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, I 9 think my concern is somewhat obvious. For Deputy Carson 10 to simply start explaining what Officer Babbitt was 11 thinking at the time without any explanation as to 12 whether he's made enquiries, whether this comes as a 13 result of conversations seems to me, with great respect, 14 it's not very helpful evidence for your process. 15 And certainly if -- if we're going to go 16 there, then I assume that we're going to be asking Deputy 17 Carson what others think across the board. 18 It just seems to me that it's not very 19 helpful evidence with respect, unless there's some 20 foundation to it. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: The question I asked is: What did 24 you understand on the evening of September -- the morning 25 of September the 7th, when Mr. Babbitt said:


1 "What it is, John, is on tape that I 2 will take it off of and then burn the 3 tape." 4 A: That he was going to take the 5 information off -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I didn't 7 anticipate -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 9 perfectly legitimate question. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This is a perfectly 11 legitimate question. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, I'm 13 not sure -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Oh, I'm sorry. 15 It's just that I don't know what happened with respect to 16 the expression of concern about the question. 17 My Friend just moved on to the next one so 18 I -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I was sitting 21 taking notes about whether he was going to respond, ask 22 another question. I just -- just in terms of form, I 23 just want to know -- if he's moving on and asking a new 24 question, fair enough. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: he's asked


1 the question that he's asked and -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm asking the very 3 question that was asked that -- that -- that Deputy 4 Commissioner Carson gave a different -- was going into a 5 different explanation 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If Mr. Falconer sits 8 down and listens he would know that it's the very same -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- question. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 Just ask the question and let's get the answer and move 13 on. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, Mr. Falconer 15 is going to sit down and listen. I'm not taking shots at 16 Mr. Millar and he probably shouldn't take shots at me so 17 that we can move along. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: If somebody objects 20 and Counsel doesn't want to address their objection and 21 is planning simply to move on, then it's a good idea to 22 tell us, because then I'm not guessing at where we're 23 going, that's all -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Falconer.


1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I didn't just move on, 4 I simply asked the Witness the same question that I'd 5 asked that the Witness wasn't answering. But I will -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ask the 7 question and -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- I will ask the 9 question. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: What did you understand on the 13 morning of September the 7th when the question was asked, 14 what is it -- what it -- when Mr. -- Sergeant Babbitt 15 said: 16 "What it is John is on tape that I will 17 take it off of and then burn the tape." 18 A: Correct. My understanding was that 19 he would draft the information from the tape as a result 20 of our discussion and my direction to him and when he was 21 finished he was going to destroy the tape. 22 Q: And the -- the -- did you in fairness 23 -- the point that Mr. Falconer made is a fair point with 24 respect to you started to talk about some comments by Mr. 25 -- with respect to Sergeant Babbitt, did you speak to


1 Sergeant Babbitt about the issue of tape at some time on 2 September 7th or afterwards? 3 A: Many years later. 4 Q: And when you say "many years later", 5 how many -- how many years? 6 How did this come about? 7 A: As a result of the information that 8 come forward on this particular anonymous letter. So, 9 it's in the last year. 10 Q: In the last year? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the discussion that -- what was 13 the discussion that you had with Sergeant Babbitt? 14 A: Oh. I -- I just raised the issue 15 with him that there was an allegation that he had burned 16 a tape and I -- I didn't even know that -- I didn't even 17 recall quite frankly. It wasn't a matter of knowledge. 18 I just didn't recall that whether it had been taped or 19 not. 20 I -- I certainly had no recollection of 21 ordering him to burn any tape or to destroy any tape. 22 So, I just asked him the question, you know, Did I tell 23 you to destroy a tape? 24 Q: And he -- what was his response. 25 A: He said No and his reaction was


1 basically what I started -- and I apologize for getting 2 ahead of the game here with the response, but he was 3 embarrassed for having started to record something of a 4 superior officers without their knowledge. 5 Q: And what he had -- what did you 6 understand he recorded; the -- the comments that you had 7 given him with respect to the press release? 8 A: Correct. And -- and I knew that as a 9 matter of accuracy that like the media does, our media 10 officers also record their discussions with their media 11 contacts so that they can be verified for accuracy when 12 they do their press releases. 13 So, that was the reason, I mean I knew 14 that from to time they do record for that purpose. 15 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you, 16 excuse me. Then if I can take you... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: If I could take you back to page 3. 21 And with respect to the comments under the Department of 22 National Defence, there's a comment that, Item number 1, 23 that a Military advisory being provided to Chief 24 Superintendent Coles at the Grande Bend command centre. 25 Do you have any knowledge of this issue?


1 A: There was always a Military liaison. 2 Q: And that was -- 3 A: I mean this whole incident involves a 4 Canadian Forces Base. It is, I would suggest, the 5 natural expectation in order to deal with these issues 6 which even during the Park discussions had ramifications 7 from the Military Base. 8 So, there had been an ongoing liaison all 9 through this incident from 1993 and I would suggest to 10 this day if there's an issue raised that there will be 11 members of the Military who are contact officers -- or 12 contact people to deal with some of these issues. 13 Q: And during the period September 4th, 14 5th and 6th into September 7th when you were incident 15 commander, who was the Military liaison to you? 16 A: I believe it was still Captain Smith 17 at that time. 18 Q: Captain Smith. And then Item number 19 2 deals with night vision sights and binoculars with 20 respect to the Emergency Response Teams? 21 A: Well, I'm not familiar with where we 22 got the night vision equipment. I know our emergency 23 response section out of General Headquarters provided us 24 with some additional night vision equipment. The -- the 25 source of it, quite frankly, was the Department of


1 National Defence. 2 Quite frankly, I don't know if it was, 3 sobeit -- it's wherever we literally acquire the 4 equipment from. 5 Q: And, you gave evidence during the 6 course of the Inquiry that -- during your evidence-in- 7 chief about the use of night vision equipment for the ERT 8 -- some ERT members and, can you tell us again what that 9 was for? 10 A: Well, that was for them to provide 11 observation, particularly in and around the cottage areas 12 to determine movement in -- in that general area during 13 night time operations. 14 Q: Then, the next comment, comment 15 number 3, you've address in part, but it deals with -- 16 alleges that there were three (3) Bison LAV's -- light 17 armoured vehicles -- provided from Meaford Militia 18 Training Centre? 19 A: That's a total erroneous statement. 20 We -- at no time did we ever acquire any Bisons from the 21 Military and to my knowledge, I -- I could not even 22 confirm this day that any training ever did take place. 23 Q: And, the one (1) light armoured 24 vehicle that was obtained after you left as incident 25 commander was from General Motors Diesel in London?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And then, item number 4. Did DND 3 provide a driver to operate the Bison LAV -- 4 A: That's -- that's -- 5 Q: -- and train TRU team member? 6 A: That's absolutely inaccurate and the 7 only potential reservist, and it was in the discussion, I 8 believe, of the September 5th minutes in the command 9 post, was the officer from -- who worked out of the 10 Windsor Casino who was a reservist or was in the Militia. 11 Q: That was Rob Shaw? 12 A: Rob Shaw. He was a serving member 13 who was also a -- a militia officer. So, he was -- he -- 14 he had training in that particular type of equipment. 15 Q: And, is there any other comment you 16 wish to make with respect to this document, which we 17 should mark as an exhibit, sir, it would be... 18 THE REGISTRAR: 456, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-456: Document 6000364 Anonymous 21 letter September 01/'99 22 23 THE WITNESS: My only comment is -- is, 24 it is a-- the information erroneous, inaccurate and 25 there's absolutely no basis, in fact, for any of this


1 whatsoever. And it is certainly written with an entire 2 lack of knowledge or understanding of what the motives, 3 objectives, or responsibilities were whatsoever. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Then, if I could move on to another 7 subject and that's in 1996 -- in February of 1996 -- I 8 understand there was a meeting and -- called an Ipperwash 9 Review? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And, I'm referring to Inquiry 12 document 2000556. It's dated February 21, 1996 and these 13 appear to be minutes of -- or notes of the meeting. 14 Is that a fair description? 15 A: It's an -- 16 Q: How would you -- how would you 17 describe this document, sir? 18 A: It -- it's an encaps -- encapsulation 19 of the issues that were discussed and -- and I -- I'll 20 leave it to your question, but I can -- I can explain how 21 this develops. 22 Q: Yeah, if you could. What was this 23 about and why did it take place and can you just describe 24 it for us? 25 A: In -- in any incident, any major


1 incident, whether it's a barricaded gunman, any -- where 2 there's a requirement to bring in a number of officers 3 beyond an ordinary day-to-day business, you'd normally 4 have a debrief. 5 And you have a debrief to review the 6 incident, to review the work, to -- to see if you can 7 develop lessons learned or understand if there were any 8 issues that need to be done different, how you may or may 9 not do that. 10 It's a -- it's a learning process. In 11 this particular incident, as everyone is well aware, 12 there were two (2) major investigations resulted from 13 this, one (1) from the Special Investigations Unit and 14 one (1) from the Criminal Investigation branch in general 15 headquarters. 16 So, because of the fact that these major 17 investigations were underway and still ongoing, it -- it 18 creates a situation where you cannot discuss all the 19 details of the investigation which, in many times, and in 20 particular like an armed gunman or hostage situation, 21 when it comes to conclusion, you can normally as -- as 22 police officers, discuss the majority of the events. 23 However, in this particular one, we felt 24 it would be inappropriate to get into an in depth 25 discussion about individuals role, given that the


1 outstanding processes that were clearly under way. 2 So, as -- as time was going on, clearly a 3 number -- a lot of people had been involved and there 4 were certainly some anxieties that we had not had a 5 debrief and -- and looked at how we had conducted this 6 operation and hadn't had an opportunity to give people -- 7 to provide their input into some of the things that they 8 think we needed to potentially address or do differently 9 or do better. 10 So, I was tasked with -- with the 11 assignment because there was concerns about the legal 12 ramifications of a debrief and that's related to the 13 criminal processes in particular. 14 So -- so, the decision was that we would 15 do an operational review, we would ask each area whether 16 it would be ERT, tactical, negotiators, logistics people 17 to bring forward their ideas or thoughts or 18 recommendations that need to be discussed. And so what 19 ends up happening is, we had a meeting and at the 20 Centralia College. 21 I was the facilitator, Chief 22 Superintendent Coles was there as the other command 23 staff, and what we did is we walked through the -- more 24 than anything else, more of a logistical review of the 25 incident as opposed to an operational debrief.


1 So, what you see here, for lack of a 2 better term, is a list of issues and comments by the 3 different teams of people, and each team would have had 4 representation at this meeting. 5 So, it's -- it's a very cursory review of 6 the operation. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: I don't know if that's helpful or 9 not. 10 Q: The -- a couple of points, and I 11 don't intend to go through this document, but there are a 12 number of points that were raised; and if I could go to 13 page 2, the bottom of the page: 14 "Inspector Hutchinson able to confirm 15 some of the intelligence that was 16 received by checkpoints that had 17 nothing to do with the checkpoints or 18 location of checkpoints." 19 And then at the top of the page, I take it 20 Sergeant Richardson makes a comment about the information 21 and it being unreliable. 22 There's a comment: 23 "There was a lot of information but 24 there was no concrete proof of i.e., 25 weapons in the Park."


1 Do you see that, sir? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was that a concern -- did you 4 take that as a concern being raised about the 5 intelligence aspects of the matter? 6 A: I'm not sure. I think what's -- 7 what's trying to be articulated here is -- is -- I'm not 8 sure where Inspector Hutchinson was going with his 9 comments and I think probably what you're -- you see here 10 is basically some frustration that's being raised more 11 than anything. 12 I'm not -- I'm not sure it was 13 particularly a -- an issue about the relevance of 14 intelligence. I'm -- I'm not sure -- your question. 15 Q: Well, I'm just -- it appears that Mr. 16 Richardson is -- was expressing a concern that Sergeant 17 Richardson that there was a -- that there was a -- 18 information was of unknown reliability and there's a lot 19 of information but not -- no concrete proof of for 20 example, weapons in the Park. 21 A: Well I -- but I think his point here 22 is that at the checkpoints, cars were being often times 23 waved through, they weren't stopped and not thoroughly 24 checked. 25 And I know there were some issues around,


1 you know, how much checking could or could not be done. 2 As -- as I recall there was some frustration that if 3 there was concerns of -- the potential concerns of 4 weapons coming in and you're not literally checking 5 trunks, how do you know they're not going in. Those 6 kinds of discussions. 7 Q: And then on page -- the bottom of 8 page 7 and the top of page 8 under the heading 9 Intelligence and TSB, there's a comment at the top of 10 page 8: 11 "Need to make sure that raw 12 intelligence given out has been 13 analysed to some degree." 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And -- but I think as we've already 16 discussed, there was not an analyst during the period of 17 time September 4th, 5, and 6? 18 A: I'm not sure that I would agree that 19 this means a person who is an analyst as opposed to it 20 has to go to somebody who will decide what's appropriate, 21 what's factual and what's possible information. 22 And the difficulty -- what did occur a 23 couple of times, is some information went directly out to 24 the officers on the road that in fact probably needed to 25 be screened and some more work done before that


1 information was shared. 2 Q: And then there's a comment by you: 3 "Inspector Carson responded that once 4 the war room was open then the talk 5 becomes a place of information and 6 passing on information." 7 I understand that some time after 8 September 7th there was a -- what are you referring to 9 the 'war room' here? 10 A: Well, the war room is the support 11 centre in Orillia, the general headquarters. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: This is just a logistical issue. 14 Q: Just a logistical issue? 15 A: Yeah. It's -- yeah, that's all that 16 is. 17 Q: And perhaps we could mark that 18 document the next exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-457, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-457: Document 2000556 "Ipperwash 23 Review" by OPP February 24 21/'96 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And I note as you look through, that 3 many different people are giving comments as to what they 4 thought were issues or things that should be considered, 5 is that fair? 6 A: Yes. Quite frankly, it -- it really 7 was more than anything else a wish list in many cases. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me for a 9 minute, Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now the -- some time after this and 15 some time in 1997 there was an inspector assigned to do a 16 review, an Inspector Connolly? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And have you seen Inspector 19 Connolly's report? 20 A: No, I haven't. 21 Q: And were you involved in Inspector 22 Connolly's review? 23 A: The only involvement I had in his 24 review was that he came to my office and I guess I -- I 25 was back at that time, which would have been -- I believe


1 he did that in '96 or '97, I believe, probably '97. 2 But when that -- when that was conducted, 3 my understanding was, he was collecting -- trying to 4 collect and catalogue the documents that were involved in 5 this particular incident because of the -- the breadth of 6 information and the number of people involved. 7 I -- I wasn't of the impression at that 8 time that he was actually going to submit a report at the 9 end of his collection, I thought he was more of a 10 cataloguing/ documentation point of view versus a report 11 on the information. 12 Q: And -- but in any event, you did not 13 see his report? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: And, why was that? 16 A: Well, I was the incident commander 17 and there were a number of processes underway. At that 18 time, there was, I believe, still the criminal process 19 involving Constable Deane and there were still other 20 processes outstanding such as a civil suit that it be 21 inappropriate for me to be looking at the minute details 22 of -- of the events because I would have to potentially 23 address them in testimony at some point. 24 Q: And did you -- perhaps unfair, but 25 the -- did you understand or learn that Inspector


1 Connolly made certain recommendations? 2 A: I don't know what his recommendations 3 are. 4 Q: And, with respect to changes that the 5 Ontario Provincial Police have made over the years, 6 Commissioner, we intend to call at some point, the 7 present Commissioner, Commissioner Boniface, to address 8 that issue in a part 1 -- joint part 1/part 2 and I'm not 9 going to get into that with this Witness because 10 Commissioner Boniface is going to address that. 11 But I would like to, before I close, after 12 a longer period of time than we both, perhaps, thought 13 and -- and ask you two (2) final questions. 14 The first is, is there anything else you 15 would like to say? And, the second is, do you have any 16 recommendations that you, having been a key part of the 17 events at Ipperwash, would like the Commissioner to 18 consider as -- when he's preparing his report? 19 A: Well, my -- my comments would be that 20 as was -- as was stated in the original objective, every 21 effort was made to bring this event to a peaceful 22 conclusion and unfortunately, that's not the case and 23 I've had discussion with Sam George and have expressed my 24 desire that he gets the answers to his question and I 25 believe he deserves that.


1 And you know, from a personal point of 2 view, it's certainly very unfortunate the circumstances 3 ended the way they did. 4 I guess my only comment to that is, I 5 believe that everybody involved did their best to try and 6 avoid that outcome, but it just wasn't to be and that's 7 very unfortunate. 8 Q: And, are there any recommendations 9 that you would like to have -- to make to... 10 A: If I could, I -- I have listed a -- a 11 few comments that I would like to share. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: First of all, if I could speak to 16 land claim processes, I would suggest that the root issue 17 in this Inquiry will always point to the land claim 18 involving CFB Ipperwash. However, as a general 19 statement, police officers are very unfamiliar with the 20 land claim process and subsequently how it affects police 21 responsibility and authority. 22 Police are usually able to determine 23 matters of fact and proceed with actions based in law. 24 For the most part, that would be the Criminal Code of 25 Canada. The issue becomes problematic when police are


1 required to make determinations and remain objective to 2 all parties when the status of a land claim or possible 3 land claim is the basis of the dispute. 4 For the most part, this is a Federal 5 responsibility to enter into discussions with the 6 stakeholders. Also it is a fiduciary responsibility to 7 address those standing land claims. 8 It's essential that the resolution is 9 achieved at the earliest opportunity to avoid the sense 10 and perception of stalling. Frustration will result, 11 subsequently with events that require the Police to 12 become involved. 13 Information that's essential for proper 14 planning in a police response would be, but not limited 15 to, the details of the progress of the land claim, the 16 historical background of land claims, the current state 17 of that particular process, any action or inaction taken 18 involving that land claim to date, and in particular, 19 education of all the stakeholders. 20 The police role becomes extremely complex 21 when there is lack of adequate information for decision 22 making. Police officers require the necessary details to 23 support their decisions related to this dilemma. 24 The primary issue will be always be the 25 colour of right, which may not be clear or may be


1 contested without factual information. It's important -- 2 it is in the government interest and in the public 3 interest to provide this support and particularly to the 4 police. 5 It's important to be mindful that such 6 events occur in communities where everyone knows 7 everyone. Often the First Nations community, the public 8 at large, the police officers who respond, all live and 9 work side by side, before, during and after the event. 10 It's recommended that a process be 11 developed that engages the Federal authorities to provide 12 the necessary support to police agencies where land claim 13 issues occur within their individual policing 14 jurisdictions. It is essential that Federal authorities 15 provide police with specific training for land claims. 16 Communication. The most important 17 element in any dispute will be communication. In a land 18 claim issue, at a local level, it will be necessary to 19 main dialogue -- maintain dialogue with the claimants, 20 the community and the police. 21 All information must be accessible to the 22 police. The information might come from involved 23 parties, whether it be elected officials such as the 24 grand chief, Ontario chiefs or local, municipal 25 officials.


1 There must be a mechanism that engages all 2 parties with the objective of a resolution. The 3 difficulty arises when the sole party responsible for 4 communication resides with the police. It is simply not 5 feasible and often inappropriate, for police to assume 6 the role of mediator or negotiator. 7 However, it would be -- it would make 8 sense for a member of the police management team to be 9 delegated responsibility to participate with the 10 appropriate leaders, spokespersons et cetera who have a 11 vested interest. That officer would provide advice to 12 the incident commander, who would be responsible for 13 appropriate planning and strategy. 14 Every resource, including First Nations 15 officers must be utilized to maintain necessary 16 communication. We've worked hard, prior to 1995, to 17 foster relationships with the First Nations community. I 18 believe some of the evidence to date at this Inquiry has 19 confirmed that and evidence will show that the Ontario 20 Provincial Police values that relationship and continued 21 to. 22 There are a number of issues that -- a 23 number of initiatives that have been developed since 1995 24 and some of which Commissioner Boniface will speak to in 25 her evidence when she appears. Despite this event, it is


1 of vital importance that we have strong relationships 2 with our First Nations communities. 3 In recent years, the Ontario Provincial 4 Police has developed, for example, the aboriginal 5 response teams which is proving very valuable and. For 6 example, there was an incident in recent months in 7 Walpole Island and the Aboriginal Response Team 8 participated. And I met with the Chief of Walpole and he 9 could not say enough good things about the relationship 10 and about the interaction with the officers and in 11 particular with school children. 12 It's therefore recommended that a process 13 be established for discussion and mediation. The process 14 would include responsibility and requirement for those 15 stakeholders with a vested interest to participate and 16 where possible facilitate discussions. 17 Political representation. The notion of 18 political involvement in any incident has a potential of 19 controversy. The first issue is the definition of 20 political involvement. 21 Does it include a mayor, a reeve, 22 administrator, a county warden are only elected officials 23 of the provincial or Federal Government? Does it include 24 civil servants? This is certainly not an easy question. 25 However what is clear is the police must


1 be provided with all viewpoints. Information from 2 political leaders may validate or dispute other 3 information known to the police. 4 That confirmation or lack thereof may be 5 an important consideration. The viewpoint may be from a 6 perspective otherwise not available. The elected 7 official may be an important individual to communicate a 8 vital message to the community that contributes to a 9 positive outcome. 10 It is always essential that police be 11 provided all information from every source. When the OPP 12 is responding to First Nations communities in regards to 13 any major occurrence, it is expected that the commander 14 will seek out the chief of council or representative 15 thereof to ensure that there's an understanding of the 16 police operations. 17 The police commander must assess all 18 available information in order to decide on the 19 independent application of law. In general, such 20 autonomy can be achieved by the use of an operational 21 liaison officer as suggested in the previous 22 recommendation. 23 This approach would preclude any elected 24 official needing direct access to the incident commander. 25 However, I would be cautious of any suggestion that


1 precludes absolutely that the incident commander not be 2 able to have a face to face meeting with an elected 3 official. 4 It is recommended that in major 5 occurrences where appropriate, police assign an 6 operational liaison officer who is designated as the 7 contact person for elected officials. 8 The liaison officer would receive 9 information and update the elected official as 10 appropriate in the public interest. 11 Lastly, public inquiry timelines. One (1) 12 avenue for public accountability in education is by way 13 of a public inquiry process. To achieve the most 14 beneficial outcome for this process is important that all 15 parties be able to provide the most accurate and 16 forthright information. 17 Many witnesses require to provide evidence 18 are often not trained in note taking or participate in 19 the business or practice that does keep specific data 20 necessary for an inquiry. 21 Subsequently witnesses will be required to 22 rely solely on memory. Police officer notes. They're 23 maintained for the purpose of accountability and evidence 24 as it relates to court proceedings. The overwhelming 25 majority of cases that officers are involved in will


1 normally be completed with a two (2) year time -- within 2 a two (2) year time period in general terms. 3 Notes are usually a means to refresh ones 4 memory. In this Inquiry there will be numerous occasions 5 when notes are the only reference for many officers in 6 the absence of personal recall. 7 It's important that a public inquiry be 8 conducted within a time frame that provides the benefit 9 of memory and where available complemented by personal 10 notes. Often there will be debate regarding the 11 appropriateness of the public inquiry when there are 12 other legal processes in motion. 13 That concern needs to be weighed against 14 the public interest of the inquiry itself. It is 15 recommended that when a public inquiry is required, that 16 it shall be conducted within a prescribed time period 17 from the date of the event. 18 Those are my recommendations. Thank you, 19 sir. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 21 Deputy Carson. As I said earlier it's taken us longer 22 time than I anticipated and now My Friends will have some 23 questions. 24 And what I suggest, Commissioner, is that 25 perhaps we canvass the parties. We've -- I distributed


1 the new order of examination some time ago. There was a 2 change that was suggested by Mr. Falconer and that change 3 has been made, and then after we've done that, perhaps we 4 could, then, take the morning break? 5 And before we do that, I simply wanted to 6 say that the point made by Mr. Falconer was correct; I 7 should have either indicated I was going to go back to my 8 question, or would address it later, and I should not 9 have been short with Mr. Falconer, and I apologize. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 11 Unfortunately, Mr. Falconer's not in the room right now 12 to hear your comments. I'm sure it will be communicated 13 to him. 14 Thank you very much, Mr. Millar. 15 What we do now, Deputy, is we canvass our 16 Parties to get an estimate of how long they think they 17 might be with respect to cross-examination. So this is 18 obviously -- I hope that we can do it now. Let's try. 19 Let's see. 20 The order that we have, the first is the 21 Ontario Provincial Police Association. How long do you 22 anticipate you might be? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: About half a day. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About half a 25 day? Okay. Because the mics aren't on out there --


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll repeat what 2 people say. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will you 4 please repeat it? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because I 7 really can't handle the -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Then, the next is the 9 Province of Ontario? 10 MS. KIM TWOHIG: One (1) hour. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) hour. The 12 next is the Honourable Michael D. Harris? 13 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: I'll be an hour or 14 so. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The next is the 16 Honourable Charles -- Mr. Charles Harnick? 17 MS. JACQUELINE HORVAT: Ten (10) minutes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's ten (10) minutes 19 for Mr. Harnick, and it was one (1) hour for Mr. Harris. 20 Mr. Runciman...? 21 MR. IAN SMITH: An hour or less. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An hour or 23 less. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) hour or less 25 for Mr. Runciman.


1 Mr. Hodgson...? 2 MR. MARK FREDERICK: Half an hour. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) half hour for 4 Mr. Hodgson. 5 Mr. Beaubien...? 6 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: We will reserve an 7 hour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An hour. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) hour and Mr. 10 Sulman reserves for Mr. Beaubien. 11 And Ms. Hutton...? 12 MS. MELISSA PANJER: An hour or less. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One (1) hour, or less, 14 for Ms. Hutton. 15 The Municipality of Lambton Shores? 16 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Approximately ten 17 (10) minutes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten (10) minutes for 19 the Municipality. 20 The Chief Coroner of -- of Ontario? 21 MR. AL O'MARRA: Less than half an hour. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Less than half an 23 hour, sir. 24 Then the Dudley George Estate and Family 25 Group?


1 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Three (3) days, more 2 or less. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Three (3) days, more 4 or less. Mr. Rosenthal, on behalf of Aazhoodena and 5 George Family Group? 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) to six (6) 7 hours. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Five (5) to six (6) 9 hours. 10 Mr. Ross, the Residents of Aazhoodena? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps half a day if 12 it's continuous, but if I have to take a break it will be 13 more. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 15 didn't... 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He said a half a day 17 if it's continuous, but if he has to take a break, 18 perhaps more. So, we'll put down a half day. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Chippewa of Kettle 21 and Stony Point, Mr. Henderson? 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, 23 we'll say half a day, but it could be more, depending on 24 what Our Friends do, it could be less. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But your


1 best estimate now is half a day? 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Half a day to a 3 day, I would say, sir. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Chiefs of Ontario, 5 Mr. Horner? 6 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: It'll be half a day 7 to a day depending on what Our -- Our Friends cover -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A half a day to a day. 9 Now, what happened to Mr. Falconer? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suspect he 11 won't have any questions. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'll conduct the 13 cross-examination for Mr. Falconer. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Does anyone know where 15 Mr. Falconer went because it would be helpful if we could 16 determine... 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 18 important that we have some estimate of what he expects 19 and the last is the OPP, which -- depending on how 20 everything else goes. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Someone has just gone 22 out to see if they can locate Mr. Falconer. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's just 24 wait a minute and see, otherwise we'll do it when we come 25 back.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. But it would 2 be -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's just 4 wait a minute and see if he's available. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Apparently Mr. 9 Falconer has disappeared so I suggest that we take our 10 break. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we'll 12 ask Mr. Falconer when we come back. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 10:41 a.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 11:03 a.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Falconer is still 24 not here, and before we continue there's one item that I 25 wanted to deal with, Commissioner. Constable Evans has


1 obtained for us a image of the mugs and the T-shirt, and 2 I simply wanted to ask Deputy Commissioner Carson if he 3 could identify them then we will make a -- the CD rom an 4 exhibit and we will print copies so we'll have a paper 5 copy as well. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And on the screen there's a 9 photograph of the T-shirt, and it appears a blown up 10 photograph on the lefthand side of the logo on the T- 11 shirt? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And is that the T-shirt that you saw 14 back in September of '95 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Then -- and the -- was the -- perhaps 17 I could ask this question, I made the assumption actually 18 that the logo on the lefthand side was a blowup of the -- 19 the image on the left was a blowup of the logo that's on 20 the upper lefthand side of the T-shirt. 21 Was that logo on the back of the T-shirt 22 as well? 23 A: Not that I'm aware of. 24 Q: Okay. So that the image on the left 25 is a blown up version of the logo?


1 A: Correct. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And on the screen now we have the 6 image at the top appears to be a photograph, albeit a 7 little faint, of a cup. And at the bottom is the -- is a 8 blowup of the image, that I take it is on the cup; is 9 that your understanding? 10 A: The image at the bottom -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- is the one that was the issue, as 13 I understand it. 14 Q: And was that image on the bottom, on 15 the cup, at the top and we just can't -- 16 A: My understanding, we were discussing 17 the -- only the bottom image, I'm not aware of the -- the 18 upper image. I'm not -- I -- I hadn't seen that one on a 19 coffee cup -- a logo. 20 Q: Oh, I see. The -- 21 A: So I don't know if -- I don't know 22 where the second one comes from. 23 Q: Okay. But you had -- 24 A: My -- my understanding was it was a - 25 - a shoulder flash in the arrow.


1 Q: On the cups and -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- and you didn't see a cup? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Oh, okay. Perhaps what we could do 6 is mark that CD as the next exhibit? 7 THE REGISTRAR: It would be Exhibit 458, 8 your Honour. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Four fifty- 10 eight (458). 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-458: C.D. Rom of OPP T-Shirt with 13 "E.R.T., TRU, '95' Logo and 14 OPP coffee Mug with "Team 15 Ipperwash, '95' Logo 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And your Honour, we 18 will provide a paper copy of those images as well. And 19 that's -- I'm complete and Mr. Falconer's still not here, 20 so. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 22 let's carry on. I just have something I want to say 23 before we start. 24 Having heard all of the parties estimates 25 of anticipated time to cross-examine, with the exception


1 of Mr. Falconer, who's not here yet -- do you want to say 2 something, Ms. Jones before I say something, or -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I -- I'm sorry, 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were 5 just getting into place. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just getting 8 ready? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just 11 wanted to expand on some points, most of which I've made 12 on previous occasions. 13 In conducting this Inquiry, I've studied 14 the experiences of other Inquiries, have emphasized my 15 own goal: that we be guided by principles of fairness, 16 comprehensiveness, and efficiency. 17 And to this end, I've read with interest, 18 Justice O'Connor's acknowledgement of Counsel's success 19 during the Walkerton Inquiry in ensuring that cross- 20 examinations were relevant, non-repetitive, and focussed. 21 Now he said, Counsel for the parties kept 22 their cross-examinations focussed, thus avoiding 23 considerable duplication and delay. 24 25 Now, I believe we've also been successful


1 thus far in this Inquiry. It's worthy of reminder that a 2 public Inquiry is not a civil or a criminal trial. 3 The Commissioner does not make findings of 4 civil or criminal liability, nor does the Commissioner 5 have the ability to impose any penalties. 6 An Inquiry is an inquisitorial, and not an 7 adversarial proceeding. Notwithstanding the separate, 8 and sometimes distinct interests of parties, 9 withstanding, I believe that this fact should continue to 10 guide our behaviour during the course of this Inquiry. 11 As Commissioner, I have a responsibility 12 to the public to be thorough and fair, while at the same 13 time to be mindful of time and cost. 14 It's important for this, and indeed for 15 any Public Inquiry, to move at a consistent and efficient 16 pace. As a publicly funded process, the public has a 17 right to expect the Inquiry to conduct its work with 18 economy and efficiency. 19 At this juncture I want to reiterate what 20 I've said in the past that Counsel make every effort to 21 ensure that their cross-examinations and interventions 22 add value to the Inquiry's mandate. 23 As I've previously stated, the credibility 24 of the Inquiry is potentially undermined if it is 25 perceived as being unnecessarily lengthy.


1 Now, I'm aware that it is not easy to 2 estimate the length of time required to cross-examine, or 3 indeed, to examine in-chief. 4 Commission Counsel's examination of Deputy 5 Carson was longer than anticipated. However, in view of 6 the responsibility of Commission Counsel and the role of 7 Deputy Carson in these proceedings, in my view this was 8 appropriate. 9 Further, I'm confident that the 10 thoroughness of Mr. Millar's examination will serve to 11 conserve the time required for cross-examination. 12 Again, citing Justice O'Connor's 13 observation of his own proceedings, normally cross- 14 examinations in total took no more time than did an 15 examination by Commission Counsel, and often, far less 16 time. 17 So I'm encouraged that Counsel's estimates 18 of the time required to cross-examine Inspector Carson, 19 taking in total, we haven't heard from Mr. Falconer yet, 20 but we will as soon as I've finished this, he's here now. 21 But so far we do not exceed the time that 22 it took for examination in-chief. 23 Commissioners have a power to control 24 their own proceedings. This is explicitly stated in our 25 rules of procedure, the Public Inquiries Act, and in


1 judicial decisions. 2 As has been observed by legal academics, 3 Courts have taken a generally -- a deferential approach 4 to Commissions of Inquiry, and have allowed them 5 considerable leeway in determining their own procedures. 6 The Courts seem to be aware of the need 7 not to strangle Public Inquiries with procedures that are 8 more appropriate in an adversarial setting, such as a 9 civil or criminal trial. 10 Generally, the number of witnesses, and 11 the extent of cross-examination, for example, are within 12 the discretion of the Commission. The basis on which 13 standing is granted to parties is one (1) means through 14 which this discretion may be exercised. 15 Standing has been granted, in Part I, to 16 persons or groups who have demonstrated that they have a 17 direct and substantial interest in the subject matter of 18 the Inquiry pursuant to Section 5(1) of the Public 19 Inquiries Act. 20 Standing has also been granted on a 21 discretionary basis to some who, although they do not 22 have a direct and substantial interest in the subject 23 matter of the Inquiry, do represent distinct 24 ascertainable interests and whose experience or expertise 25 or perspective is important for the fulfilment of the


1 Commission's mandate. 2 It's my expectation that all Counsel will 3 keep in mind the basis on which standing is granted and 4 take steps to ensure that cross-examination is conducted 5 accordingly. 6 Counsel should be aware that if, in my 7 view, examinations of time required exceed what I 8 believe is reasonable or cross-examination considerably 9 exceeds estimates, I may intervene. Once again, I urge 10 all parties to continue their efforts to consult among 11 themselves to avoid duplication. 12 In conclusion, I would like to commend 13 Counsel thus far for their efforts to work together and 14 with the Commission and Commission Counsel cooperatively 15 and professionally and it's important that we continue to 16 do so. 17 So, with having been said, I would like to 18 now ask -- Mr. Falconer is the only one who has not given 19 us an estimate of how long he thinks. I jokingly said I 20 didn't think you'd have any questions at all, but I kind 21 of suspect you do, so how long do you anticipate your 22 cross-examination might be? 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I tried to 24 add up the number of days of examination-in-chief and the 25 number of days I understand cross-examination's going to


1 be in order to stay under that number. 2 Mr. Commissioner, I -- I anticipate from 3 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto's point of view at 4 most will be a day, but we will be that long. Obviously 5 issues of policing are prominent -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: ThatĂs fine. 7 I understand that, Mr. Falconer, that's fine. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. And - 9 - and, I would simply put on the record that from the 10 point of view of Counsel for, what I'm going to broadly 11 refer as "the aboriginal interests" in the room and I 12 don't speak for them and I'm given a brief to speak to 13 them as I speak now. 14 We are trying -- we are trying to organize 15 ourselves in terms of our cross-examinations so that we 16 don't repeat and in that respect I hope, Mr. 17 Commissioner, you'll bear with us if we change the order 18 a little bit at times because one (1) of the lawyers -- I 19 mean amongst ourselves. One (1) of the lawyers had 20 decided -- has agreed to take the -- to take the ball or 21 the burden in order not to repeat and in order to keep us 22 organized. 23 I only raise that because it's in an 24 effort to do exactly what you said, which is, don't go 25 over the same thing and try to be efficient and -- and


1 conserve time. 2 I only raise that because we're going to 3 try to organize ourselves. It's not about treading on 4 anybody else's order, but I only raise that pursuant to-- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll deal 6 with that when it happens, Mr. Falconer. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do 9 appreciate your raising it and I think we should get on 10 with it. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, we will, but I 12 wanted to ask, now that Mr. Falconer's back in, I didn't 13 realize when I'd made my apology that he wasn't here, so 14 I'd ask him to look at the transcript when it comes out. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I acknowledge and I 16 -- I appreciate what I understand and I've already been 17 told what Mr. Millar said and I appreciate it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Falconer. 20 All right, Ms. Jones, I think we're ready 21 for you now. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good -- is 25 it morning or afternoon? Good morning.


1 MS. KAREN JONES: I think we're still in 2 the morning. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's still 4 morning? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: I think we're still in 6 the morning. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: And good morning, Deputy 10 Commissioner. 11 A: Good morning. 12 Q: I'm Karen Jones, one (1) of the 13 lawyers for the OPPA. 14 Deputy, I wanted to start off with some 15 background about the OPP. You've been asked a number of 16 questions over a number of days, sort of bits and pieces 17 about the structure and some of the other things, and I'm 18 just wondering if we could, fairly quickly, in a fairly 19 summary fashion, make sure that some of that information 20 is clear. 21 And I appreciate that the OPP is a very 22 large organization with several thousand members and it 23 has quite a complicated structure, but I understand at 24 the end of the day there is a fairly well-defined and -- 25 chain of command.


1 A: Right. 2 Q: And I just wondered if we could walk 3 through that quickly with you starting at the level of 4 Commissioner and working down to the non-commissioned 5 officers and maybe a brief note about what each level of 6 the chain of command does in the organization? 7 A: Okay. Of course, the Commissioner is 8 the executive officer of the Ontario Provincial Police 9 and is, in effect, the Chief of Police, the final 10 executive position in the organization. 11 There are four (4) provincial commanders 12 of deputy commissioner rank who report to the 13 Commissioner and -- and we're speaking of, in particular, 14 today's structure. There was some difference in 15 structure if we're talking about 1993 and 1995 as was the 16 time when the restructuring of the OPP occurred. 17 But in -- in today's time lines for 18 provincial commanders, one provincial commander is 19 responsible for corporate services. And corporate 20 services would include things like our business and 21 finance, our information technology bureau, the 22 accommodation services -- our -- our buildings, our 23 professional standards bureau, and our strategic services 24 that's responsible for First Nations and contract 25 policing. Also media relations, corporate -- corporate


1 media services, also the provincial police academy and 2 policy and research. 3 Then there is organized -- organized crime 4 -- criminal investigations and organized crime and 5 they're responsible for major investigations, support to 6 major investigations, the like of special -- speciality 7 units of surveillance, photo surveillance, wire tap 8 operations, those kinds of covert activities. Drug 9 enforcement, that type of business. 10 And then there's field oper -- field and 11 traffic services which is responsible for all uniform 12 command, our normal detachments, our underwater search 13 and rescue emergency services such as tactical teams, 14 emergency response teams. Negotiators, that -- that type 15 of service and under that command comes the command of 16 the six (6) regions today that our regional headquarter 17 is located in London, Aurora, Orillia, Smith Falls, North 18 Bay and Thunder Bay. 19 Do you just want me to continue down in 20 the operational side? 21 Q: Yeah. And then within. Yes. 22 A: So the region commanders report 23 directly to the deputy commissioner. In my current role 24 as deputy commissioner of field and traffic services, the 25 region commanders of the six (6) regions report directly


1 to myself. 2 The region commanders are responsible for 3 a specific geographic area. And for example, the 4 southwest -- western region of southwest Ontario includes 5 the area generally from Waterton to Niagara Falls to 6 Windsor. 7 That regional commander has a number of 8 detachment commanders across southwestern Ontario that 9 report to the region commander. And of course at each 10 region headquarters there's support staff, two (2) 11 superintendents in the west regions case and several 12 inspectors who have management responsibilities over the 13 operations in southwest Ontario. And that's delegated by 14 task. 15 Q: And -- and just so -- I'm sorry to 16 interrupt you, Deputy, but during the period 1993 to 1995 17 would that type of position have been referred to as the 18 chief superintendent position? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Chief Superintendent Coles -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- held that position at that time. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: Chief Coles, just kind of related to


1 the pre '95, had also been the former division commander 2 which had responsibility for the same geographic area. 3 So it just continued under the new structure with the 4 same individual. 5 Q: Right. Okay. 6 A: So -- and each detachment, depending 7 on the number of -- the number of officers and the 8 geography, would be -- have a detachment commander of 9 either staff sergeant or inspector rank. 10 Q: Okay. And again to take you back to 11 the period '93, '95, that would have been referred to as 12 district commander? 13 A: No, detachment commander. 14 Q: Detachment commander. 15 A: The region as we know it now, there 16 were districts in -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- 1993 which was headquartered in 19 Chatham, London, Mt. Forest and Burlington. Now there 20 are -- there are no headquarters in Chatham, Burlington 21 or Mt. Forest. There's one regional headquarters in 22 London that looks after the same geographic area. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: So it's just an amalgamation of those 25 districts.


1 Q: Okay. And then moving down in that 2 period of time you had said that that would be -- could 3 be an inspector that would be responsible? 4 A: Could be an inspector. The rule of 5 thumb, if there's more than sixty (60) officers, 6 generally an inspector is in charge of the Detachment. 7 Q: Okay. Okay. 8 A: But, for example, Lambton County, 9 given our location here, is headquartered in Petrolia. 10 They have in excess of a hundred (100) officers and 11 Inspectors responsible for that operation, and -- and he 12 has one (1) staff sergeant, and a number of -- I believe 13 it's ten (10) or -- probably ten (10) or twelve (12) 14 sergeants who are the first line supervisors for the 15 constables. 16 Q: Okay. So under the inspector, then, 17 would be the staff sergeants? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And then the sergeants? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And further on down would be the 22 constables? 23 A: The workers. 24 Q: The workers, okay. And I take from 25 what you've said today, and also previously, that the


1 period of '93 to '95 was really a period of transition 2 for the OPP, in terms of re-organizing roles, and re- 3 organizing areas? 4 A: Yeah, the adminsitrative 5 responsibility, yes. 6 Q: Right. And in terms of policing, in 7 general, I take it that the OPP, as other police forces, 8 have a number of sources of authority -- 9 A: That's -- 10 Q: -- that they act under? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: For example, I take it that the 13 police have common law powers? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And those common law powers, perhaps, 16 you can describe generally how that works? 17 A: Well, there's the common law 18 responsibility to keep the peace and prevent -- prevent 19 criminal offences, and -- and that type of authority -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: And then of course you have the 22 Police Services Act, which is the primary Act that's 23 responsible -- that -- that provides police authority. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I believe it's Section 42(1) of the


1 Police Services Act, provides all the expectations of an 2 officer. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And of course, authority, such as use 5 of force, comes from Section 25 of the Criminal Code and 6 -- and the like. 7 Q: Yes. And in addition to that, the 8 OPP, as with other police forces, would have standing 9 orders or directives? 10 A: Correct. We -- we have what we refer 11 to as our police orders. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Which is basically the standing 14 orders for various administrative and operational 15 guidelines. 16 Q: Okay. And then there would be orders 17 from commanding officers? 18 A: Yeah, there could be -- there could 19 be -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- direct orders from individuals, 22 yes. 23 Q: Right. And in terms of some of the 24 powers that police exercise, and I wanted to look at two 25 (2) in particular, and one is the power to arrest.


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And the second is the power to search 3 and stop. And I understand, under the sort of general 4 power to arrest, that a police officer can make an arrest 5 in the face of a crime? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And when there is reasonable and 8 probable grounds to believe that the law is being broken? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: You can also arrest if you have a 11 warrant? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it, from time to time, a 14 situation could arise where the police would have a 15 warrant for an individual, and they would then have to 16 try to find that individual to arrest him or her? 17 A: Correct, that's correct. 18 Q: And if they believe that they have 19 located the person who's identified on the warrant, what 20 kind of steps do they take, or can they take to ensure 21 that they have the right person? 22 A: Well, what they're expected to do is, 23 if -- if they believe they have the individual involved, 24 they're expected to execute the arrest. 25 And of course, part of that is securing


1 the identity of the individual and -- and following 2 through with the direction of the warrant, depending on 3 the type of warrant that may be -- that may exist. 4 So if it's an arrest warrant that's 5 required because of an outstanding charge to return them 6 for -- whether it be bail court, or -- or to appear for a 7 failed to appear, it may be direct to custody; it depends 8 -- depends what the circumstances are. 9 Q: And what -- and what would happen in 10 the circumstance where a person who had been identified 11 as being the subject of a warrant refused to identify him 12 or herself? What -- what do police -- can police do in 13 those circumstances? 14 A: Well, the first thing an officer 15 should do is attempt to identify the individual, so they 16 are -- they are asked to produce identification. 17 If the officer believes they are the 18 subject of the arrest -- or subject of the outstanding 19 warrant, and -- and believes, in good faith, on 20 reasonable and probable grounds that this, in fact, is 21 one and the same person, they would be expected to arrest 22 that individual. 23 And then they would be expected to 24 continue the arrest, return them to the police station, 25 and secure whatever appropriate documentation is


1 necessary to identify the individual, whether it's 2 fingerprints, photographs or personal ID. 3 Q: I anticipate that we'll hear evidence 4 that during the period of time at Ipperwash that an 5 incident arose where a person was believed to have been 6 the subject of a warrant? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And when was asked to identify 9 himself, refused to do that and I further anticipate 10 we'll hear evidence that the police took further steps at 11 that point in time to try taking him to a location where 12 he could be identified by someone. 13 And, is that -- is that something that 14 police would be required to do or is that something that 15 would be in addition to what they might normally do? 16 A: Well, normally if the officer 17 believes that this is, in fact, the -- the right person, 18 normally you would arrest, return -- return that 19 individual to the detachment and begin the process for 20 the documentary evidence to support that identity. 21 In the case that I believe you're speaking 22 about, the individual was taking -- taken to another 23 location where another officer was asked to confirm the 24 identity and I believe in -- in the case -- example that 25 you're referring to, the second officer was able to


1 establish that the individual was not the subject of the 2 warrant. 3 Q: Yeah. I then wanted to -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 5 minute, Ms. Jones, I see Mr. Falconer on his feet. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Just briefly, Mr. 7 Commissioner, it seems to me if My -- My Friend is 8 perfectly entitled to ask these questions, I apologize 9 for interrupting you, it's just that if she's going to 10 refer to anticipated evidence, it's probably best for the 11 purposes of the record and clarity, that My Friend 12 indicate which witness she's talking about and which 13 example. 14 I heard Deputy Carson speculating on what 15 she's talking about and he's probably right and everybody 16 can guess where we're going, but it avoids the guesswork, 17 with respect. 18 Because otherwise, he says, The example I 19 think you're talking about. Well -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- we're -- I just 22 think it's best if Counsel says, I anticipate evidence, 23 that they indicate who it's from. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 25 to say something, Mr. Millar? We kind of...


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think there -- 2 actually, I think that -- I think -- and I asked Deputy 3 Carson about what I -- what I believe is the incident 4 that Ms. Jones is talking about and I believe over the 5 last nine (9) days I did ask him about that incident and 6 we heard from -- and assuming it's the right incident, so 7 Mr. Falconer's correct in -- in saying, perhaps, it 8 would be helpful to identify because I'm probably making 9 the same assumption that Deputy Carson is making and it's 10 a fair comment. 11 There has been evidence on this and -- and 12 Mr. Falconer's comment's a fair comment and I -- I think 13 Ms. Jones -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you be a 15 little more specific then. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- was simply trying 17 to be careful. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. I -- I 20 appreciate that direction, Mr. Commissioner, and I'll do 21 that. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: I then, Deputy, wanted to move onto 25 the power to search and to stop and I understand that


1 that is something -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Ms. 3 Jones, are you going to leave that point the way you left 4 it or are you going to fill in some of the blanks? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: What I can do, Mr. 6 Commissioner, is I can indicate that I believe that we'll 7 hear evidence regarding an issue involving Kevin Simon. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: And I can certainly 10 refer to the officers' names, if that would be of 11 assistance. It will take me a minute to find the note, 12 but I can do that. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm not certain that - 14 - I'm not certain that's necessary. I think that -- that 15 I was assuming it was Kevin Simon. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'd asked Deputy 18 Carson about Kevin Simon and I think that all Mr. 19 Falconer wanted was -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- who are we talking 22 about, not the names of the people. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 Carry on.


1 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Sorry, Deputy. Moving back again to 3 the power to search and stop, I take it that a police 4 officer can do so where there's a warrant? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And can also do it in 7 certain circumstances where there is not a warrant? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: For example, looking at things in 10 plain sight? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Where consent is given? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Where there is an issue or concern of 15 public safety or firearms? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Or in emergencies? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And I take it that officers have the 20 right to use those powers, both the power to arrest or 21 the power to search and stop, without requiring a direct 22 order or direction from a superior officer? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. And I take it that officers 25 also have the right to make decisions regarding their use


1 of force? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that's not something that can be 4 dictated in advance by someone? 5 A: No. The -- the issue of use of force 6 is taught from the recruit level of every officer that 7 joins any police agency in Ontario and -- and 8 particularly at the Ontario Police College. 9 And there -- there is a significant amount 10 of time spent on the understanding of the continuum of 11 force and how to address the appropriate level of force 12 required in a given incident. 13 Q: Right. And I also take it that 14 officers have the right to make decisions in relation to 15 serving or preserving lives or ensuring safety? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can take the measures that are 18 required to do that? 19 A: Absolutely. 20 Q: And again that's not something that 21 has to be done pursuant to a direct order? 22 A: No. They are autonomous to make 23 those decisions on site. 24 Q: Okay. And we've talked a little bit 25 about the chain of command. And I take it that reporting


1 is done up and down the chain of command? 2 A: Preferably yes. 3 Q: But that given the structure of the 4 OPP like many police organizations, there would be an 5 expectation, for example, if we're starting at the bottom 6 end of the chain of command that is the constable level, 7 that they would be reporting to their superiors, that is 8 the sergeants. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Who would then report to staff 11 sergeants? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And so on up through the chain of 14 command? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And that reporting would be done for 17 example by constables at the end of a shift or on an 18 ongoing basis as incidents arose? 19 A: Very much so, yes. 20 Q: And people further up the chain of 21 command, for example, at Ipperwash you would not hear 22 generally directly from a constable. You would have 23 heard information after it had gone through the chain of 24 command? 25 A: Yes. In most cases, yes.


1 Q: In most cases. And I take it that at 2 each level of command, a determination has to be made 3 about what's relevant and what needs to be passed up? 4 A: Yes, correct. And that -- that is 5 one of the challenges at times is to delineate the -- the 6 expectation of what needs to be reported and what does 7 not require to be reported. 8 Q: Right. And I take it in a situation 9 like Ipperwash, that would be a very difficult task 10 because there was information coming to you from many 11 sources on an ongoing basis? 12 A: Correct. And -- and that was why in 13 the -- particularly in the initial stages, we reviewed, 14 in the early part of my evidence here, a number of daily 15 reports because there was information on a daily basis 16 that was encapsulated to be put forward so there was a 17 common understanding of that information. 18 Q: Right. And I take it, at Ipperwash, 19 especially after September the 4th, that a lot of the 20 information that you received would have come from Mark 21 Wright as your assistant? 22 A: Well a lot of the information would 23 have come from Mark Wright but the -- we had regular team 24 meetings where there would be input from all members of 25 the management team.


1 Q: Okay. And, similarly, in terms of 2 information coming down the chain of command, it would -- 3 it would go from -- down from level to level to level? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And there would be different types of 6 information that would be appropriate for different 7 levels? 8 A: Right. On the -- from an incident 9 management perspective, my -- my approach to that is, 10 wherever possible, if you can get all of your command 11 team together so you're able to provide it at once so 12 that each one understands what their tasking is and that 13 they ensure the appropriate people carry those tasks out 14 as required. 15 Q: Right. And I then wanted to move 16 onto the area of information and gathering information. 17 The Commission had a session with an emergency services 18 provider that talked about a principle he used which was, 19 Think globally and act locally. 20 That is gather information all around and 21 then apply it to the circumstances you're in. And I take 22 it from what you've been saying over the course of the 23 last many days, that's something that you did as well? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And did it on an ongoing basis?


1 A: I -- I think anyone -- any mid to 2 senior level in any organization, particularly a police 3 organization, must think that way in this day and age. 4 Q: Right. And you've told us that one 5 of the things that you believe was important at the time, 6 was to get information about the history regarding the 7 Base and the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that wasn't something that you 10 were required to do, but I understand on your own 11 volition you gathered information so you would be 12 informed? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Yeah. And you also talked about the 15 long involvement of yourself and other members of the OPP 16 in the area and with people in the area? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And that would have been an important 19 source for you, of information? 20 A: Oh, very much so, yes. 21 Q: Okay. And you also got information 22 from intelligence in the OPP? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And the Military? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And do I understand that you received 2 regular reports from the Military of their intelligence? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I understand that in the 5 period from '93 to '95 that there were special Military 6 intelligence officers who were stationed at Ipperwash? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And did you get their reports from 9 them about the Military intelligence they were collecting 10 on a daily basis? 11 A: Pretty much. 12 Q: Okay. And did you also get 13 information from the commander of the Base about the 14 daily reports or daily information from the Military 15 Police? 16 A: It may not have been what I would 17 call, "daily," but I would suggest it was on a regular 18 basis depending on the activities at the time; the more - 19 - the more activities, the more regular the information. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: So there were -- there were periods 22 where things were, you might categorize as relatively 23 quiet and so we may go a week or two (2) with no contact 24 and -- or, in the winter months for -- for instance, but 25 there may have been times in the summer months when it


1 would be daily. 2 Q: Okay. And given the need to have a 3 perspective, and you also talked about it in your 4 concluding comments about perspectives from a variety of 5 different sources, that would be -- and because that's 6 something that you would have to take into account as you 7 move forward in the matter, I just wanted to start taking 8 you through some of the events that happened at Ipperwash 9 in '93; not at great length -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- because Mr. Millar has covered a 12 lot of materia. 13 But starting in 1993 at the takeover of 14 the Base or the movement into the Base by some of the 15 occupiers, you were involved almost immediately at that 16 time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And you would have, I 19 understand, sought information from a variety of sources 20 about their views about the matter and what was going on? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And I just wanted to sort of walk 23 you, if I could, through that 360 degree perspective 24 about who you were contacting. 25 You've told us a bit about your


1 relationship with Chief Bressette? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I take it he would have been a 4 key person to speak to at that time? 5 A: Yes. I had an ongoing relationship 6 with the Chief. 7 Q: And at that point in time, that is in 8 1993, what was your understanding of Chief Bressette's 9 view and the band council's view? 10 A: Well, I knew the Chief was very 11 interested from a band point of view, excuse me, to bring 12 the issue of the outstanding return of Camp Ipperwash to 13 a conclusion and one (1) of the meetings we had had and I 14 believe I spoke to it earlier in my testimony, but he 15 raised the point that the OPP was using the Base facility 16 for firearms purposes, for training and that he felt that 17 that was exacerbating their cause, given that it was 18 providing a reason for the Military to argue that there 19 was still a requirement for the use of the Base -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- for Military purposes. 22 And as a result of that, a decision was 23 made to discontinue OPP training there and I guess that's 24 just an example of, you know, the -- the sensitivities in 25 regards to dealing with Chief Bressette and having some


1 appreciation of, you know, they were trying to work 2 through the return and some of the issues that he saw as 3 obstacles. 4 Q: Right. And did you have an 5 understanding from Chief Bressette about whether he had a 6 perspective about the OP -- whether the OPP should be 7 involved in dealing with the people who were occupying 8 the Base? 9 A: Well, as -- as the occupation itself 10 went forward, I mean, it was -- it was very clear that he 11 didn't agree with the occupation the way -- way it 12 happened and, I mean, there -- I mean, there are comments 13 that have come out in -- in evidence here that he felt we 14 should simply remove them; that we should simply arrest 15 them. 16 But that, particularly, became more so as 17 time went on as opposed to at -- at the start. 18 Q: And you had said -- said that 19 earlier, I think, about the arrest and was -- did you 20 have discussion with him, or did you have an 21 understanding about the circumstances that arrest would 22 take place? 23 You have talked about the difference 24 between a trespass, and an injunction, and that kind of 25 thing.


1 A: I don't think with -- with Chief 2 Bressette that we really got into a discussion about 3 that. I -- I didn't really want to be, how would you put 4 it, that was his view, and -- and my view was that we 5 were always going to try to resolve it, and my -- my 6 sense of this was, this wasn't an OPP issue. 7 This was an issue between the occupiers 8 and Department of National Defence. So I really tried to 9 keep a neutral position, when I was dealing with Chief 10 Bressette, in regards to my personal opinion of what was 11 going on there. 12 Q: Right. And you spoke at some length 13 about your discussions with people on the Base and the 14 Department of National Defence, again, your view about 15 the role of the OPP. 16 But, I also take it that there would have 17 been some considerable pressure put on you by the 18 Military to have a more active role, and be involved in 19 the occupation? 20 A: Well, it was clear that the 21 military's desire was that we simply act unilaterally, 22 and -- and remove the occupiers, particularly in the 23 early period in May-June of 1993. 24 And as I mentioned, at the -- I went to a 25 meeting with Major General Brian Vernon at Land Forces


1 Central in Toronto. Major General Vernon understood our 2 position, and seemed to appreciate our position, but I 3 would suggest there are many in his command who would -- 4 certainly would have liked, or preferred, that we just 5 simply use our police powers and make an arrest. 6 Q: Okay. And in terms of the community, 7 both the local government in the area, and the local 8 citizens, would you have also heard from them at that 9 time; about their views about what the OPP ought to do in 10 the circumstance? 11 A: Well there was lots of commentary in 12 the community. of course, this was also the same period 13 of time there was the civil suit that was underway in 14 West Ipperwash, and there was certainly a very 15 significant concern about the property values, and there 16 was significant, I guess, media coverage at that time, 17 about that, and the -- the cost to the residents in 18 regards to the -- the -- the suit that was underway. 19 But there was also concern raised from the 20 community in regards to things like the occupiers being 21 allowed to go into the Military Base, and why wouldn't 22 the police simply go in and do something about it, and it 23 wasn't long before there was a lot of commentary about, 24 you know, two -- two (2) types of approaches to -- to 25 these issues.


1 And it was certainly creating some concern 2 and obviously we had some concern raised by the township 3 of Bosanquet, of course, which is just the municipality 4 that this all resides in. 5 Q: When you say "two (2) types of 6 approaches" what do you mean by that? 7 A: Oh that there was -- that if -- if 8 such an occupation occurred by a non-native person, that 9 there would be simply an arrest made, and because this is 10 a First Nations issue, we aren't using the same approach. 11 Q: And this is one of those situations, 12 it sounds like, Deputy, which you may well have been in 13 before, where because of the actions and the interactions 14 of other people, an issue or a problem is created, and 15 the OPP is then asked or wanted, or people have great 16 expectations that it will go in, and sort it out and deal 17 with it. 18 A: That -- that's true. I think that 19 the issue here becomes understanding of what police power 20 actually is, as opposed to what it may be perceived and 21 some, you know, I would suspect naive opinions of -- of 22 police power in some cases, and -- and what actual 23 authority they do have in all cases. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. And you've also talked a 25 little bit about from, excuse me, time to time the OPP


1 being involved in matters on the Base, and one of the 2 examples that you gave was the helicopter shooting in 3 1993. 4 And we've heard evidence that the OPP 5 obtained a warrant to search buildings for weapons. And 6 I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about, sort of, 7 the efficacy of a search under the circumstances. 8 I understand that the warrant was such 9 that the search wouldn't begin at least until the next 10 day. 11 A: Until daylight, yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And did you have a view about 13 whether or not the scene could be properly preserved or 14 maintained so that there was a chance you could actually 15 investigate properly? 16 A: Well I -- I think there's a couple of 17 points on -- on that. Number 1, is was clearly a 18 criminal act. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: And as a result of the criminal act, 21 a warrant was obtained. Was there much hope that the 22 most important piece of evidence, being a firearm, would 23 be able to be located by the time -- given the time it 24 would take to get the warrant and the time it would take 25 to conduct a search, given the geography of the area.


1 Well quite frankly, I think it would be a 2 pretty lofty expectation. However, there may be other 3 pieces of evidence that would be useful in that 4 investigation, whether it be a gun that ejects shell 5 casings or other ammunition. Who knows? 6 Perhaps even a witness who comes forward 7 with information. I mean, you just don't know what 8 informa -- what evidence may become available as you do 9 the search. So you're -- you are obligated to make an 10 attempt to locate the evidence. 11 And I don't think you can just approach an 12 investigation and say well, there's not a chance there 13 will be any there so we're just not going to bother. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. The point I -- I was 15 thinking about too, Deputy, was that you talked a little 16 bit just in the -- in passing about the need to preserve 17 crime scenes. 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And I take it that's because it's -- 20 it's important in terms of preservation of evidence that 21 a scene be secured as soon as possible? 22 A: That's a critical element. 23 Q: Yeah. And that people not be allowed 24 in or out of the scene to tamper with evidence? 25 A: Any contamination of any crime scene


1 is problematic for investigation. 2 Q: Yeah. Over the course of 1994 we 3 have a record that indicates that there was meetings 4 between the Township of Bosanquet and councillors and 5 people from Kettle and Stoney Point and the OPP and DND. 6 And in particular... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 We have a -- we're provided by the 11 Commission with a number of documents that were given by 12 the Department of National Defence. And this is a 13 document that's at Tab 7 of that information. 14 I'm not sure that you have it before you. 15 But perhaps what I can do it is just describe it to you 16 briefly and see if that's something that rings a bell for 17 you. 18 It's the minutes of a meeting held on the 19 18th day of November of 1994 and it talks about Mayor 20 Fred Thomas being there, councillors being there, road 21 superintendents, Norm Shawnoo from Kettle and Stony Point 22 and Gerald George, the OPP, including yourself, a member 23 from the DND and Rosemary Er. 24 And I think there was some review of that 25 meeting before. I don't want to take you over the same


1 ground, but I did want to ask you, did you have meetings 2 like that from time to time, where a number of people who 3 were interested or types of categories of people who were 4 interested or concerned, would meet together and try and 5 sort out what was going on? 6 A: There were a few meetings with 7 Bosanquet in particular. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: But as groups, probably they were the 10 most -- one of the -- one of the major stakeholder -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: ű- in, just, their municipality. 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: So this -- this type of meeting -- I 15 mean we met with Military a number of -- numerous 16 occasions. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: We met with individuals on numerous 19 occasions. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: The group meetings we had brought, 22 you know, a number of stakeholders together. Probably 23 the example you're pointing to is -- is probably the -- 24 the best example where that occurred and I was at a 25 couple of meetings at Bosanquet, I think there was


1 another one later than that, I believe, but the -- the 2 date fails me. 3 Q: Okay. And I -- I take it that at 4 those meetings, what you and others at the meetings could 5 do was -- was talk about approaches to take to problems 6 that were arising as a result of the occupation of the 7 Base? 8 But again, it wasn't something that you 9 could really address the underlying issues, because that 10 wasn't your jurisdiction? 11 A: Well, in -- in -- absolutely. A lot 12 of the discussion, you know, I'm sure the minutes are 13 there, but there was certainly discussion to try to 14 understand how -- how all the different parties 15 could deal with it. 16 Obviously, the Department of National 17 Defence would take a fair bit of the brunt of the concern 18 because it's obviously their property and there is 19 processes available to them to resolve some of this issue 20 that needed to be addressed and -- and was perceived to 21 not, in fact, be happening. 22 Q: And we've looked at some newspaper 23 reports and we've also heard some evidence over the fall, 24 in particular, where there were references to the Base as 25 a "lawless land."


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was that -- did you hear that 3 from the community and from community members over the 4 course of time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And was that something that increased 7 over the course of time between 1993 and 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And was there anything that 10 you could do about that perception or any explanation 11 that you could assist people with in understanding what 12 you were doing and why you were doing it? 13 A: Our position always was and still is, 14 that where any criminal offence comes to our attention, 15 we'll investigate it to the best of our ability and if we 16 are able to determine the persons responsible, we'll take 17 the appropriate enforcement action, regardless of who it 18 may be. 19 Q: Right. We've also heard evidence 20 that in the spring and the summer of 1995 there was an 21 increase in incidents between the Military and the 22 occupiers, both in the number of incidents and in the 23 type of incidents or the escalation of incidents. Was 24 that something that you were aware of on an ongoing 25 basis?


1 A: Yes, I was. 2 Q: Okay. And I wanted to take you 3 briefly through what I understand the -- some of the 4 incidents were. 5 I take it -- and I'll check if these were 6 things that were reported to you and what you made of 7 them at the time and what your views were about them. 8 According to the DND records that we have, 9 there seemed to be an increase starting again, as I say, 10 in the spring of 1995 into forays by the occupiers into 11 the built-up area using vehicles. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Was that something that you were told 14 about? 15 A: I was aware of that, yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And on April 29th, there was a 17 report about Military vehicles on patrol being followed 18 by a van and being shot at. Was that something that you 19 were aware of? 20 A: I believe I was aware of that. 21 Q: Yeah. And as a result of this 22 incident, night patrols were cancelled at the Base. 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Is that something? 25 A: Yeah. That...


1 Q: In May -- on May 26th of 1995, there 2 was the burning of the control tower? 3 A: Control tower? 4 Q: On -- on the range? 5 A: I'm not certain of the date of that, 6 but that sounds about right. 7 Q: Yeah. Okay. And I understand from 8 the documents that there was a concern at that time and 9 that the OPP was notified because the fire department had 10 had -- been refused access at getting into the Base by 11 the occupiers? 12 A: There were some issues with the fire 13 department, yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And in terms of a safety 15 concern, I take it that would have been something that 16 you would have been alert to? 17 A: Yes? 18 Q: Was that emergency vehicles may not 19 be able to get -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- into the Base in certain areas? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: In June of 1995 the DND documents set 24 out three (3) incidents where the bus was used by 25 occupiers against the Military who were on patrol.


1 And were you aware in June of 1995 that 2 the bus was being used in that way? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And the bus was being used 5 both to chase Military vehicles and on one (1) occasion, 6 to ram a Military vehicle? 7 A: That was my understanding. 8 Q: Yeah. And similarly, in June there 9 were, as I understand, two (2) incidents where cars were 10 used by occupiers to ram Military vehicles? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: One, I understand, which the OPP was 13 particularly involved in, took place on or near Highway 14 21. 15 A: I'm not sure which report you're 16 referring to. 17 Q: Okay. Let me give you some 18 assistance here, and again this is in the DND brief that 19 we were provided. 20 There is an incident report -- sorry, it's 21 the Inquiry Document 7000952 and it is -- no. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And Deputy, if you just want to take


1 a minute to look at that, and see if that helps refresh 2 your memory, please do that. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Can you give me the 4 document number? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: It's 7000952. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 952, I've got the 7 wrong number. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: No, that's the right 9 one. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 70003 -- 11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that 12 particular event, but there were certainly a number of 13 similar events of that nature. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Actually, Mr. Commissioner, Ms. 21 Newell had just pointed out to me that I have been 22 looking at the wrong number and it's 700311, so Mr. -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 700311? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Three (3) zeros.


1 MS. KAREN JONES: Three (3) zeros. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three (3) 3 zeros. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: 3 -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And three 6 one one (311) at the end? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Got the right 9 document? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: You did have the right 11 document. I thought it was brilliant. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: How did Mr. Millar get 13 the right document? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: I know. He's psychic, 15 he's psychic. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's magic. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: There was, in that particular 20 incident that's set out in that report, deputy, there was 21 an indication that once the car had been used to ram the 22 vehicle, it was then driven back into an area near the 23 training area and abandoned and the OPP were involved at 24 that point in time. 25 And there's a comment in the report that


1 the OPP who attended at the scene had decided that it was 2 too dangerous to go into the training area at that time, 3 and that a search would not be successful. 4 And what I particularly wanted to ask you 5 about, is as of that time, that it is June of 1995, did 6 you have a view or did others under your direction have a 7 view about potential problems or safety hazards that 8 could have arise for OPP members if they went on to the 9 Base? 10 A: We didn't -- we did not go on to the 11 Base as a matter of patrol. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: If there was a reason to take us 14 there for investigative purposes we would go, but we -- 15 when the Military was there, we -- we didn't patrol the 16 Base and there's always been the issues on the training 17 ranges around -- safety issues around their ordnance and 18 those issues as well. 19 But as far as any criminal investigation - 20 - any criminal investigation would have been conducted 21 and if it was necessary to go on to the Base, we would 22 have attempted to make some contact and -- and deal with 23 some of the individuals on the Base to address our 24 movements around the Base. 25 Q: And when you're addressing people,


1 would you have been addressing both the Military and the 2 occupiers? 3 A: Depending -- depending where we felt 4 we needed to go. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: Right? I mean if we -- 7 Q: But you would try and make contact 8 with whoever was -- was important in terms of the 9 location? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And to try and sort out what you were 12 doing, and why you were doing it, and how you were going 13 to do it? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: Okay. There's also reports in the 16 brief of -- during the course of the spring and summer of 17 1995, that there was an increase in some of the direct or 18 contacts between the Military and the occupiers. For 19 example, there's notations that, for the first time, 20 rocks and other projectiles were being hurled at the 21 Military, whereas in the past it might have been garbage, 22 or it might have been something else; were you aware of 23 that? 24 A: Yeah. The level of confrontation 25 appeared to be escalating through early or -- the summer


1 -- the spring summer of '95. 2 Q: Right. And there's also some 3 information indicating that, for the first time, the 4 occupiers started patrolling the Military beach; was that 5 something you were aware of, or was that something, in 6 your view, that had been happening in the past? 7 A: It seems to me that the occupiers had 8 been using the beach in '94 for sure, but a -- a fair bit 9 right along. 10 Q: Okay. And there's some indication in 11 the DND brief about the response of the Military to the 12 escalation and I wanted to ask you if you were aware that 13 -- about that too. That, in particular, that the DND 14 stopped patrolling the Base, and were only patrolling the 15 built-up area? 16 A: Correct. I was aware of that. 17 Q: Yeah. And that a number of buildings 18 were sandbagged because there had been shots into the 19 built-up area? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And that the Military police were 22 provided, for the first time, with body armour and pepper 23 spray? 24 A: That was my understanding. 25 Q: And that barriers were erected --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- in the built-up area? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that in June of 1995, the 5 Military started to remove its assets from the Base? 6 A: yeah, I wasn't initially aware of 7 that, but I -- I became aware of that. 8 Q: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Ross? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: With respect, Mr. 12 Commissioner, it appears as though this is almost 13 evidence by innuendo. For instance, there's some shots 14 in the building, they're sands bagging -- give us some 15 names, give us something that we can attack in cross- 16 examination a little further. 17 It seems here that the evidence that is 18 now coming from this witness, no personal knowledge. 19 Thank you. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, if I 21 might respond to that. I am moving through some of these 22 incidents in quite a summary way, and if it assists the 23 Commission and counsel I'm happy to -- 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MS. KAREN JONES: -- spend the time and 2 refer to specific documents. 3 I agree that the Deputy Commissioner would 4 not have personal knowledge of them, obviously he wasn't 5 there and he's made it clear about that. What I did want 6 to ask him though, was his understanding, or the 7 information that he had received in or about that time. 8 Because given what the Deputy Commissioner 9 said about the need to have information, and incorporate 10 that into your planning, and into how you act, I wanted 11 to make sure that we had an understanding of the 12 information that he had. 13 He's certainly not here for the purpose of 14 proving whether or not the Military sandbagged and the 15 specific incidents of shooting into the built-up area; I 16 presume we'll be having people from the DND to do that. 17 But if that's something that he was 18 informed about and if that's something that he had to 19 take into account in his planning, it seemed to me it 20 would be helpful information to know that. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 22 could just give a little more information regarding each 23 incident so that counsel will know what you're referring 24 to -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and can 2 cross-examine on it. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And if it's easier, 4 again I'm happy to refer to specific documents, what 5 there will be is a report that sets out some specific 6 activity and I'm happy to refer to that -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I appreciate 8 that -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- if that's useful. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you're 11 trying to do it in a summary fashion, but as long as 12 Counsel knows what you're referring to. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Well, let me start then, in terms of 17 the removal of assets, and maybe I can just stop there. 18 Can you help us with when you first would have started 19 learning about that? 20 I can refer you to a specific document 21 that talks about the start of the removal of assets in 22 June of 1995. But you've told us that you've learned 23 about it a little later on and maybe you could indicate, 24 if you recall, when you learned about it and what you 25 knew.


1 A: Well, for sure, when the incident 2 happened at the end of July, I was made aware that some 3 equipment had been removed from the Base prior to and 4 then of course there was some expeditious -- 5 Q: Removal. 6 A: -- actions taken at the end of July 7 when the bus incident took place to clear out other, what 8 they would consider important assets at that time. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: But I don't believe -- my memory kind 11 of fails me here, that I was informed that equipment was 12 being or assets were generally being reduced or removed 13 from the Base, say in June of '95. I'm not sure I was 14 party to any discussion about that. 15 Q: Okay. In document number 7000412 16 which is a DND Maple situation report number 12, dated 17 July 12th, 1995. 18 A: Is there a tab number I can check 19 here? 20 Q: Again, one of the -- I -- I believe 21 that this -- the DND material you may not have, but we 22 can put it up on the screen so you have an opportunity to 23 look at it. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If I might. These -- 25 the Witness doesn't have these. This is from Ms. Jones'


1 own brief and if there's another copy of the brief around 2 it would be helpful. We could give it to Deputy Carson, 3 but this is not -- this is the brief they put together 4 for cross-examination. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, in any 6 event, we can put the document on the screen and if the 7 deputy needs time to read it, he can. If there is 8 another copy -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, if there's 10 another copy, though, it would be -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would 12 make it easier. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- a lot better for 14 the -- for the deputy to have it, because it's hard to 15 read on the screen. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 17 appreciate the difficulties with that. We were using the 18 DND brief in the fall and winter and I believe at that 19 time we provided the Commission with a number of copies 20 of the brief. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, maybe 22 we have -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: And maybe -- perhaps at 24 some -- I -- I don't just -- just so Mr. Millar and you, 25 Mr. Commissioner, have an understanding, I don't have a


1 lot more of these documents to go through, so in terms of 2 recopying the entire material now, it may not be a 3 particularly good use of time if the Commission could dig 4 out its copies of the brief, that may be helpful. 5 But, as I say, I don't have a lot more of 6 these documents to refer to. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you do 8 have the document number and we could -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, I do. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- put it on 11 the screen -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I certainly do. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: ű- so 14 everybody can see it and the deputy can read it. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I certainly do, yeah. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Some of these -- 17 sorry, Ms. Jones. 18 We'll, at the lunch break which should 19 come up shortly in any event -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should 21 take it right about now in any event. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll look for it, but 23 I -- some of these documents may already be exhibits as 24 well. Some of these incident reports in this period of 25 time were made exhibits. I just don't have --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't, 2 either. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the exhibit at my 4 fingertip. If Ms. Newell might be able to assist us with 5 -- assist Ms. Jones and assist us by identifying which 6 ones are already exhibits because I think Mr. Roland or 7 Ms. Jones went through some of these before. 8 But I'll try to find this book at lunch 9 for Deputy Commissioner -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 11 want to hear from Mr. Ross and then perhaps we'll take a 12 lunch break. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: There are two (2) 14 things, Mr. Commissioner. First, there's a -- I've been 15 able to persuade Kevin Scullion to part with his copy, 16 but if they're going to be put to this witness, I'd like 17 to know first whether or not the Witness is familiar with 18 the document and could talk to it, rather than try to 19 educate him now for answers which could be coached out of 20 him. 21 HereĂs a copy. 22 And this was prepared as a result of an e- 23 mail sent by Counsel to tell us what documents we should 24 be preparing, okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I think that is 2 a fair comment that Mr. Ross makes, that if the Witness - 3 - to ask the Witness if the Witness has ever seen the 4 document before. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. So, 6 we'll continue with this after lunch. Would this be a 7 good time to break, Ms. Jones, or do you want to continue 8 a bit longer? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: This would be a good 10 time to do it now. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: And -- and again, Mr. 13 Commissioner, I wouldn't necessarily have been taking 14 Deputy Commissioner to be specific documents, I'm doing 15 that now because of your direction and -- and I agree if 16 I'm doing that, he ought to have a chance to look at 17 them. So I appreciate Mr. Ross and Mr. Scullion 18 providing their brief and that way it should be easier. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Ms. Jones. 21 We'll take our lunch break now. 22 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 23 Inquiry stands adjourned until 1:30. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 12:13 p.m.


1 --- Upon resuming at 1:33 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed, please be seated. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, just so 6 that as we go forward, the -- there are two (2) documents 7 that -- that are in the books that are front of Deputy 8 Commissioner Carson that have some redactions in and I 9 just realized at lunch that the copies that he has when 10 they were printed off our system, the redactions didn't 11 take and so they're un-redacted. 12 And so that -- it's Exhibit 411 and 413 at 13 Tabs 4 and 5 and all of the citizens' names that are in 14 those two (2) document are redacted, or virtually all of 15 them. 16 And, so that if anyone asks this afternoon 17 any names, I think Ms. Jones will have -- has a redacted 18 copy so she won't, but I just wanted to alert everybody 19 we're going to have to replace the copy he has with the 20 redacted copy this evening. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 I have a copy that is not redacted. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The copy they got in 24 your book's not redacted as well. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on,


1 Ms. Jones. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Good 5 afternoon. 6 A: Good afternoon. 7 Q: Before we had broke from -- for 8 lunch, I was asking you some questions about the Military 9 response to what was going on in the spring and the 10 summer of 1995 and I have a few more questions for you in 11 that area. 12 And I -- I have a document that I can 13 refer you to and in the Department of National Defence 14 brief that's in front of you now, that you received, and 15 hopefully, we're all on the same -- have similar books, 16 but in my book it's Tab 44. And it is the DND OP Maple 17 Situation Report Number 12 dated July 12th, 1995, and it 18 is Document 7000412. 19 A: I -- I don't believe I was given that 20 binder. 21 Q: That -- that's not in the binder that 22 you received. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, here it is -- just 24 a second. That's Mr. Ross' binder. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Sorry.


1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: 7000412. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: And, I'm sorry, Deputy Commissioner, 8 take your time and read that page if -- if you'd like to 9 have a chance to do that. 10 The portion that I wanted to ask you about 11 is that there's an indication paragraph 3 of that 12 document about the OPP also indicated they had been in 13 contact with Mr. Tom Bressette, Chief of the KSPB. 14 And Tom Bressette had indicated he 15 intended to have his Band Police patrol the Camp area 16 immediately following the departure of the Military. And 17 I just wanted to focus on that portion. 18 And I wanted to ask you a couple of 19 things. And first of all, in July of 1995 in your 20 discussions with the Military. Did you have any 21 understanding about whether or not the Military intended 22 to leave at any point in time soon? 23 A: I wasn't aware that they were 24 intending to leave. 25 Q: Okay. And did you have or someone


1 you knew of in the OPP, have discussions with Chief 2 Bressette in or around that period about what would 3 happen if and when the Military did leave in terms of who 4 would be responsible for policing the area and what sort 5 of contingency plans would come into affect? 6 A: I'm not aware of any discussions on 7 that topic. 8 Q: Okay. And if you turn over to the 9 next tab which is Tab 45, and for the assistance of 10 counsel it is Inquiry Document 7000321 and it is the DND 11 OP Maple Situation Report Number 13, dated July 14th, 12 1995. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And that document reports on a cross 17 cultural awareness training session that had been held by 18 the DND for the people around the Base. Were you aware, 19 in July, that that was going on? 20 A: I knew there was some awareness being 21 provided, yes. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it that at least 23 two (2) members of the OPP also attended that session. 24 It has down Paul Trivet and Murray Wood. 25 A: They are members of the First Nations


1 Bureau in general headquarters Orillia. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But quite frankly, I -- I'm not sure 4 if I was aware of it at the time they actually attended 5 or if it's just something I had forgotten, but I didn't 6 appreciate that they were there. 7 Q: Okay. If you go further through the 8 document, Deputy Commissioner, it speaks to the fact that 9 in the course of the two (2) days of the cross cultural 10 awareness training, that there was some discussion about 11 a plan which would, at the end of the day, include a 12 meeting where a number of the parties who were engaged in 13 the Base, if I can put it that way, including people, the 14 Stoney Point group, the Kettle and Stony Point group, the 15 OPP and the DND amongst others, would meet and they would 16 try and sort out, as among themselves, how to address 17 some of the issues that were in place including who would 18 be on the Base and having environmental cleanup would be 19 done and policing would be done and that kind of thing. 20 Were you aware of discussions at the CCAT 21 about that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Was that something that anyone 24 from that meeting had contacted you about or the OPP's 25 willingness to take part in?


1 A: I -- I'm not aware of that. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I wanted to move on now to a 7 different topic, Deputy Commissioner. And I wanted to 8 and ask you some questions about what you knew about the 9 occupiers who were on the Base over the course of time 10 and, particularly, in the summer of 1995. 11 We've heard some evidence that the initial 12 occupiers of the Base, the ones who first came in 1993, 13 were from Kettle and Stony Point Band and that that 14 composition changed over time and that, particularly, as 15 of the summer of 1995, there would have been a number of 16 people at the Base who have been referred to as 17 'outsiders'. 18 And, first of all, I wanted to ask you is, 19 were you aware of that trend and did that coincide with 20 the information that you had? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it from the -- your 23 evidence about getting information on an ongoing basis 24 from the Military that you would have received 25 information from Military intelligence about who was on


1 the Base and about their background? 2 A: To some -- to the degree possible, 3 yes. 4 Q: Yeah. And can you assist us in terms 5 of the -- the information that you were getting about who 6 these outsiders were and why they were there? And I -- I 7 wanted to follow-up on some comments that had been made 8 very early on in your evidence about them being warriors. 9 And there -- there had just been some talk 10 about that and I didn't get a sense from your evidence at 11 that time about what the term, "warriors," meant to you 12 or what you understood about some of the people that were 13 on the Base at the time. 14 A: Well there was certainly a number of 15 people coming and going to the Base, particularly in '95. 16 A couple of individuals that appeared to be particularly 17 -- well, they seemed to be there when -- when issues were 18 occurring and -- and that was Les and Russ Jewell in 19 particular and we had done some work on their backgrounds 20 and -- and it appeared since they had come on the scene, 21 that the behaviours had changed between the occupiers and 22 the Military staff. 23 And it just -- it appeared that, since 24 they arrived, the influence continued to evolve. 25 Q: Okay. And did you have a view or did


1 you have information at that time about the role that the 2 Jewels were playing in the Base, in the summer of 1995? 3 A: Well, in -- in '95, depending on the 4 time, there was -- I -- I guess you have to kind of 5 compare it to '93. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Because in '93, when there would be 8 something take place or a need to go out there, you knew 9 that at the time either Carl George was there and kind of 10 the spokesperson or the -- the group leader or -- or 11 whatever term you want to apply. 12 Then as time went on, Carl kind of 13 disappeared from the scene for the most part and Glenn 14 George seemed to be taking more of a leadership role. 15 And over time Glenn seemed to maybe not be so prominent 16 in being out front and being the spokesperson. 17 And then it got to a point that really 18 there was no one who really took responsibility or 19 identified themselves as -- as being the spokesperson or 20 leader of the occupiers, generally speaking. 21 Q: Okay. In the summer of 1995 there 22 were, at least, a few occasions when the OPP was called 23 out to the Base and I wondered if you could assist us in 24 -- on those occasions, and particularly in July and 25 August of 1995 when the OPP went to the Base and were


1 trying to deal with someone who was in charge, who would 2 come forward then? You've talked a little bit about 3 Glenn George not seeming to anymore. Who -- who seemed 4 to be in a leadership role around that time? 5 A: Oftentimes, it could be Bert or Rose 6 Manning. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Their -- their names were often 9 brought to the floor. Most of those contacts were 10 conducted at that time by Staff Sergeant Bouwman -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- who was the detachment commander 13 at Forest at that period and, quite frankly, whoever was 14 there, I mean, they would attempt to, you know, develop 15 some discussion. 16 But for the most part, you know, Glenn was 17 out there, Rose Manning, Bert Manning and you could never 18 be sure who would be the one to be in charge today, so to 19 speak. It was kind of the sense I got of it. 20 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. And -- and just to 21 followup on some earlier comments I had made, I had asked 22 you about your understanding of the term "warriors" and 23 when, for example, the Military would report to you or 24 you'd receive reports that indicated that there were 25 warriors.


1 What -- what did you understand by that; 2 what was that term to you? 3 A: The term 'warriors' would basically 4 be referring to native individuals who would not normally 5 be from the Kettle Point area. More likely or not they 6 would be from outside of this area, in particular, either 7 from -- potentially from Oneida or from other territories 8 in Eastern Ontario and would be individuals who had some 9 connections to criminal activity to some degree. 10 Q: Okay. And would those connections to 11 criminal activity, in the reports that you got, would 12 some of that criminal activity involve the running of 13 firearms or dealing with firearms? 14 A: In some instances, yes. 15 Q: And would some of those criminal 16 activities, that were referred to, deal with issues of 17 violence or a background of having violent criminal 18 activity? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: The next area I want to ask you 24 about, Deputy Commissioner, is the area of guns and 25 weapons. You had told us at the early part of your


1 testimony that you had believed that -- from the start 2 that the occupiers would have guns for hunting? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that I take it from what you said 5 earlier that you would have had some significant 6 discussions with the Military regarding the occupier 7 access to firearms over the course of time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I take it that between '93 and 10 '95 you would have received information from a variety of 11 sources, including Military sources, OPP sources, sources 12 from locals, from Kettle and Stony Point band and even 13 people in the Base that the number and the type of guns 14 on the Base had changed? 15 A: There was often discussion about that 16 topic, yes. 17 Q: Yeah. And can you assist us with 18 what your view was, or whether or not those reports about 19 different kinds of guns, and just to be clear, we've 20 heard, for example, from Chief Bressette, that on one (1) 21 occasion he reported to you information that had come to 22 his attention about a person on the Base with an AK-47, 23 for example. 24 Did those reports to you raise any 25 concerns or how did you -- taking that into account, what


1 was your view of that? 2 A: I guess, trying to put it in 3 perspective -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: ű- as -- is what I tried -- tried to 6 do with Major general Vernon when we first got into these 7 discussions with the Military, that there wouldn't have 8 been any doubt in my mind, and that's a personal view, of 9 whether or not there would have been weapons. 10 The -- the type and the calibre was always 11 a point of discussion and there was information at 12 various times about various weapons, including the type 13 of weapons, AK-47 type weapons, 50 calibre weapons and 14 the reality in my view was that weapons are -- are always 15 going to be problematic if they're -- if they're used 16 inappropriately. 17 There's no doubt in my mind that weapons 18 were there. There would be hunting occurring and there's 19 no doubt from some of the reports from the Military that 20 they had some concerns that they reported to us. 21 As far as the various weapons and my 22 thoughts about it, as I've indicated earlier, I -- I 23 always operated on the premise that there were weapons 24 there. I was always cognisant but cautious. And any 25 involvement we had, we always had to have a -- a sense


1 that weapons always -- there was always potential for 2 weapons. 3 I mean, that's just reasonable planning. 4 But it was my view that this dispute, particularly in '93 5 through '94 and through early, or end of July early 6 August '95, this had been a dispute between National 7 Defence and the occupiers. 8 I never had a sense that I needed to be 9 overly concerned that there was animosity towards the 10 police such that we would -- should or ought to be 11 concerned for our officers safety in that fashion. 12 It was my view that if -- if our safety 13 was in jeopardy that there was many ways to -- to carry 14 that out and regardless of the type of weapon that could 15 have -- could have come to pass if -- if individuals so 16 desired. 17 Q: Okay. And you talked about a time 18 period where you had a particular point of view and I 19 think at that time period ended in early August. 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Did you view change after early 22 August? 23 A: Well the -- the whole behaviour 24 pattern changed in August of '95 particularly there had 25 been the issues with the bus -- school bus prior to Aug -


1 - or to the first of August, July 31st. 2 But that particular event -- the -- the 3 aggression towards the Military particularly became very 4 significant. And significantly different than it had up 5 until that point in time. 6 So, you know, the message in my view, was 7 that the -- the level of aggression was escalating and 8 there certainly was potential for more serious 9 altercations. 10 Q: In your evidence earlier I believe 11 you had referred to also one of the things and I don't 12 want to mis-characterize what you said but in -- in a 13 sense that gave you some comfort, was the fact that many 14 of the OPP members in the area had very long standing 15 relationships with many of the occupiers. 16 And you saw that, I think, as a mediating 17 or a buffering affect, right? 18 A: Very much so. I mean, I -- I would 19 suspect that there would be few of the occupiers for 20 instance who wouldn't know George Speck. Who wouldn't 21 know Mike Beacock (phonetic), who would not know Mike 22 Hudson as individuals. 23 And while they may get angry with them 24 from time to time in the course of, you know, enforcement 25 obligations, at the same time I -- I don't think -- I


1 certainly didn't perceive that they would commit -- 2 commit a violent act towards them. 3 Q: And did that sense of comfort, if 4 that's not too broad a word to use, did that change in 5 your view as you became aware or you knew of more 6 outsiders in the Base who had -- didn't have those 7 connections and may have had, in some cases, histories of 8 violence or criminal behaviour? 9 A: Well the -- the concern or the 10 cautious it becomes, you have less ability to know the 11 individuals or -- or have enough information on the 12 individuals to really rely on any level of predictability 13 of behaviour given some of the new influence. It 14 certainly had -- it was starting to change. 15 Q: Okay. And you talked a little bit 16 about the -- an incident that it appears to you was 17 significant about a change that was going on among the 18 occupiers. And I believe that what you were referring to 19 was the takeover of the built-up area on July 29th. 20 A: Yes. Yes. 21 Q: And I understand that the OPP was 22 involved on the site after the initial entry on the 29th? 23 A: Yeah. We had officers there, yes. 24 Q: Okay. And I understand that you 25 would have received reports from DND personnel about the


1 takeover in an ongoing basis throughout the afternoon and 2 the evening as well? 3 A: Yes, we had officers there pretty 4 much most of the time. 5 Q: Okay. And in terms of your 6 understanding of what went on that day, I wanted to -- 7 again there's another document that I can refer you to in 8 the DND brief it's Tab number 54. 9 And, for the assistance of Counsel, it is 10 7000341 and it is the DND OP Situation Report Number 26 11 dated July 30th, 1995. 12 And, when you go through that document 13 there's a few points that are raised and I wanted to 14 check and see with you, Deputy Commissioner, if that 15 coincided with what you understood at the time had gone 16 on so we can get a sense of what your view was based on, 17 that there was a significant change in behaviour in July. 18 There's an indication in the record that 19 on the day, that is on July 29th, there were very few 20 Military Police onsite. And it talks about three (3) 21 Military Police, actually being on site, a very small 22 number. 23 Is that consistent with what you knew? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And, I'm sorry if I'm pushing you.


1 Do you need a little more time to review the document? 2 A: No. As -- as far as the numbers -- 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: -- they -- they had a rotating 5 schedule of people coming and going. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: So, that would be certainly at the 8 low end of the numbers as far as Military Police. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: Normally, I -- I would have suspected 11 it to be more -- to be more onsite; maybe only three (3) 12 on duty, but usually there was more than that onsite at 13 any given time. 14 Q: Okay. And, it indicates that 15 approximately a hundred (100) -- sorry, eighty (80) 16 native people entered the built-up area from at least 17 three (3) different directions? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And so, it appears from that like it 20 was a planned attack? 21 A: It -- it appears it was organized to 22 occur, yes. 23 Q: Yes. Sorry, maybe that's better 24 language. And that, the bus in this circumstance, again 25 was used as a weapon. It was used to break down the


1 gate? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, also to ram a Military vehicle? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And, according to the report, push it 6 about forty (40) feet? 7 A: That's my understanding. 8 Q: Which I take would have been quite a 9 significant force? 10 A: Yes, absolutely. 11 Q: Yeah. And then, a forklift was used 12 to break down the Drill Hall door? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And, when the MP's got out of the 15 vehicle, according to this, they were surrounded by the 16 occupiers or were swarmed and were threatened with 17 weapons? 18 A: I'm not sure what they were 19 threatened with, but I -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- I know there was an altercation 22 there. 23 Q: Right. It talks here about rocks and 24 pipes and hard objects. 25 A: Right.


1 Q: And that, at the time, the Military 2 Police used pepper spray to try to protect themselves? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Were you aware of that? 5 A: I believe I was aware of that at the 6 time. 7 Q: Yeah. And that, it was a 8 circumstance that was very tense and that where guns 9 could have been drawn by the Military Police? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Okay. And then, we hear that Captain 12 Smith arrived and tried to diffuse the situation? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, I take it that it was around 15 that time that the OPP would have arrived? 16 A: Yes. We -- we were called and that's 17 -- that's approximately correct. 18 Q: And that over the course of the 19 evening in the -- the afternoon and the evening, that 20 Captain Smith tried to negotiate, in essence I take it, a 21 co-existence arrangement? 22 A: That was his intent, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And, it also looks as though 24 Dick Bressette from Kettle and Stony Point was asked to 25 come and to try and assist with negotiations. Were you


1 aware when -- that people from Kettle and Stony Point or 2 a person was being asked to get involved to try and help 3 negotiate and diffuse the situation? 4 A: I don't -- I don't believe I was 5 aware of Dick Bressette's involvement. 6 Q: Okay. There's a note there that 7 says that the occupiers refused to allow him to enter. 8 Were you aware at that time whether or not people were -- 9 A: I -- I wasn't at the gate myself, 10 probably at that point, but some of the other officers 11 may have been. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. And, it goes on that in 13 the -- over the course of the evening, that the male 14 occupiers were increasingly aggressive and 15 confrontational. 16 Was that something that was reported to 17 you? 18 A: That was the understanding, yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And that, there was drinking? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that there was a high potential 22 for violence, and it was an unsafe situation? 23 A: Yes, there was certainly concern 24 about the safety of everybody involved. 25 Q: Yeah. And at the end of the day, we


1 know that the Military left the Base that night. 2 What I wanted to see if we would walk 3 through a bit, Deputy Commissioner, is why, in your view, 4 based on what you knew at the time, this event had so 5 much significance? 6 You've talked about it as being a 7 different -- and I wondered if we could give -- get a 8 better sense of what about it was so significant in your 9 view? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Just trying to find the notes 14 relative to that time period, so I can be specific if I 15 need to. 16 Q: I can't help you with your binder -- 17 sorry. The amount of paper that you have there quite 18 scares me, so... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Okay, I -- 23 Q: Okay. So back to my question, Deputy 24 Commissioner, and that is what was it about -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr.


1 Ross has got an observation. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 4 unfortunate -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it's 7 taking him a while to get up here, but if -- 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's a reflection of 9 my age, Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 12 just wondering whether or not these notes to which the 13 Witness is referring, whether or not they've been 14 disclosed, whether or not we could have copies. 15 In the normal course, I would allow them 16 to go into them and I would have seek to have the entire 17 book included. I wouldn't do that at this time, I'd just 18 like to know whether or not we've got copies. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Exhibit P-410. 23 It's the book that I handed out and -- and was marked 24 during what -- what Deputy Carson is doing is referring 25 to the original copies of the notes that are Exhibit P-


1 410. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Then I don't want to 3 take issue, but if Counsel could just tell us where 4 they're looking, that would be -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, the problem is - 6 - yeah, that would be helpful because when I was 7 examining Deputy Carson, I had Exhibit 410 and tried to 8 give the page number for Counsel so that Counsel could 9 then look it up. 10 So, you need, Ms. Jones, Exhibit P-410 -- 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Which I have. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- in order to -- 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Deputy Commissioner, if you will give 21 me a minute I'll try to get over my fear of paper and 22 find the page number so I can assist Counsel. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: I believe that Counsel will find it 2 in Tab 2 and it looks like the notes start on page 9. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And just to see if we're all on the 7 same page, Deputy Commissioner, the page I'm looking at, 8 the heading is "July 29, 1995, Ipperwash" and it says 9 "2:58". 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Okay. So hopefully if other Counsel 12 can find it, we'll all be on the same page. 13 A: Well, the difficulty will be 14 translating it. 15 It was 2:58 on July 29th that -- that I 16 was called and travelled up to the Ipperwash area. 17 That afternoon, I met with Captain Doug 18 Smith and at that time he indicated that the group was 19 represented by Bert Manning and they were ordering the 20 Military to leave. 21 This was the first time that, in 22 conjunction with the aggressive behaviour involving a 23 drill hall, there had been altercations with vehicles on 24 the rifle ranges and other roadways within the Base where 25 there had been playing this cat and mouse game.


1 And there had been several near misses 2 involving vehicles as far as near collisions. But this 3 was the first time that the altercation became such that, 4 quite frankly, people's safety was in jeopardy. 5 It was more good luck that good fortune 6 that no one was injured in this incident with the bus and 7 the drill hall. And it was clear as a result of that 8 altercation that, you know, some -- some very aggressive 9 demands were being made on the Military. 10 And it wasn't a matter of just verbal 11 rhetoric. This time it had certainly come to explicit 12 behaviour. And -- and that was certainly the issue that 13 caused concern and in and amongst this event, comments 14 are heard -- overheard by persons there that the 15 Ipperwash Park is next. 16 So quite frankly, the -- this had gone on. 17 There had -- there had been a very modest tolerance of 18 the Military and the occupiers on the Base, but clearly, 19 at this point in time, the tolerance level was no longer 20 appearing to be the norm. 21 Q: Tolerance on the part of the 22 occupiers for the Military? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Hmm Hmm. And you've talked a little 25 bit about your view that there was sort of a relationship


1 between the occupiers and the Military where I think you 2 had told us the first day of your evidence that there was 3 some mutual rubbing going on in terms of friction, that 4 you saw both the occupiers and the Military as engaging 5 in conduct that would bring them into friction and bring 6 them into tension with each other. 7 And -- and that that was growing and had 8 grown over time. 9 A: That was my sense. 10 Q: Yeah. Was it your view or your hope 11 that when the Military left and that source of friction 12 or that source of tension was no longer at the Base, that 13 some of the behaviour on the part of the occupiers, the 14 aggressive hostile behaviour, were you of the view that 15 that would abate or were you hoping that that would 16 abate? 17 A: Well I -- I would have thought that 18 once the Military left, that things would have, for lack 19 of a better term, settled down and -- and become fairly 20 quiet in that, you know, they literally had acquired 21 access to most of the physical plant in the built-up 22 area. 23 But, in fact, within short order, the 24 commentary that was made about taking the -- or that the 25 Ipperwash Park was next. Clearly we had a number of


1 examples down at Ipperwash Park that basically verbalized 2 that to -- to campers within -- within the Park itself 3 from -- by some of the occupiers who were right next door 4 in the sand dunes on the shore at the back of the Base. 5 Q: And I'm going to ask you that some of 6 the things that happened on the beach and in the Park 7 over the course of the summer. But I take from your 8 comments, Deputy Commissioner, that because of your 9 concerns about the level of hostility and the level of 10 aggression and also the Park will be next comments, that 11 you had some real concerns at that time -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- for the safety of people in the 14 Park and for people in the area? 15 A: Well I think as -- as a police 16 agency, we have an obligation to -- to examine all the 17 eventualities that come to our attention and try to do 18 the appropriate planning. I mean, one of our, you know, 19 common law mandates is to preserve the peace and maintain 20 the law. 21 If -- if we have some sense or indication 22 that there's going to be potential harm or criminal 23 activity, we certainly have some obligation to try to 24 verify if that, in fact, has any validity and if it does, 25 in fact, have validity, what steps are necessary to try


1 and deal with it. 2 So I mean that -- that was the position we 3 found ourself in, in short order. After that weekend, we 4 certainly had a meeting at -- or discussions, anyway, 5 with Chief Superintendent Coles at that time and 6 discussed, you know -- you know, what this means and, you 7 know, should we be concerned about the Provincial Park 8 and, you know, are there -- what are the risks here? 9 Q: And you provided some evidence 10 earlier in your testimony, Deputy Commissioner, that part 11 of the response of the OPP was both to, I think, increase 12 the number of OPP who were patrolling in and around the 13 area in the Park and also to have people physically 14 located in the Park as campers? 15 A: Yes. We did two (2) things, we 16 assigned officers specifically for patrol of the general 17 area in the Provincial Park, Army Camp Road, Outer Drive 18 area, just -- just the general vicinity, in uniform, 19 normal patrol, who were members of the ERT team, which 20 were additional officers over and above the normal 21 detachment complement, as well as, it was at that time 22 the undercover campers were placed in the Park. 23 Q: And I take it there would have been 24 at least a couple of reasons for that and one is to try 25 and ensure safety and the second was to get information


1 as best you could about what was going on? 2 A: Safety certainly was a primary 3 concern. Clearly the Provincial Park staff were -- were 4 aware of these concerns or they certainly had some 5 anxiety given some of the activities that had occurred 6 down on the beach area and so certainly we -- we felt a 7 sense of necessity to deal -- deal with that issue from a 8 safety point of view and we felt it was important that we 9 develop the information that was becoming available from 10 -- well, from -- from an information perspective. 11 Q: Right. And, I wanted to go back, 12 Deputy Commissioner, to that sort of 360-degree view 13 around about what happened around you in -- in the 14 community as a result of the takeover of the built-up 15 area. 16 You had told us, in 1993 and 1994, some of 17 the views that you had heard expressed from Kettle and 18 Stony Point Band and Chief Tom Bressette. I take it you 19 would have had further conversations with him around this 20 time of what was going on in the built-up area? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And, from your perspective, what -- 23 had his view changed at all or was his concerns any 24 different than they had been in the past? 25 A: His -- his concerns hadn't changed


1 from the perspective that he certainly didn't agree with 2 the approach that was taking place. There was much 3 discussion, there was much media coverage, but from Chief 4 Bressette's point of view, my -- my perception was he -- 5 he didn't agree with it and as I mentioned before, he -- 6 he felt we -- we simply should arrest them; he made that 7 comment a couple of times. 8 But I also recognize that the occupiers, 9 that the approach that was taking place here was also 10 having a negative impact on their rightful land 11 negotiations for the return of the Military Base. So I 12 certainly recognized there was small pea political 13 ramifications within the community -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- as to how this was interfering 16 with, you know, what progress they were hoping to make on 17 the -- on the progress of the return itself. 18 So that was certainly very clear and I 19 would have to go through my notes here, specifically, but 20 it was around that particular time, I believe, that Mr. 21 Mercredi also came to the Kettle Point area. 22 There was discussion about -- I'm not sure 23 if I got it from Tom Bressette or exactly -- I may have 24 got it third hand. But there certainly was some 25 indication that -- that Kettle Point Band was going to


1 take some steps in regards to the outsiders who were at 2 the Military Base having negative influence, for lack of 3 a better term. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. And how about the response 5 from the municipality in the community and the local 6 residents? 7 A: Well the media coverage of the day 8 was representative of concerns that again as you eluded 9 to earlier about two (2) types of applications of law. 10 And that's -- that issue just got louder 11 quite frankly. I mean you couldn't go into a coffee shop 12 or a restaurant or anywhere without it being a topic of 13 discussion. 14 And certainly our officers, we all would 15 have heard people, you know, concerned about what's being 16 done and you know, what -- what impact is this having on 17 the general area. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 19 moving to another topic now? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I am. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 22 mind if we took a short break? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 24 please. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a


1 short break now. 2 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 3 Inquiry will recess. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 2:19 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 2:33 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 9 Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 11 Jones...? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Deputy Commissioner, I then wanted to 15 move onto the OPP involvement in experience with the 16 occupiers over the summer of 1995. 17 We've heard some evidence, previously, 18 that in 1994 the OPP had been conducting sort of high 19 visibility ATV patrols along the beach on the area from 20 Kettle Point to Port Franks, including the Military 21 beach. 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And we understand that those patrols 24 were to have resumed in 1995, in the summer of 1995. 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: And you talked a little bit, when Mr. 2 Millar took you through the notes, about a confrontation 3 in July of 1995 where the occupiers refused to allow the 4 OPP to conduct those ATV patrols on the Military beach. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And that was the first time, I take 7 it, that the OPP had been denied access to that beach? 8 A: I believe that's accurate, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And similarly about that time, 10 I take it, there would have been an expressed intention 11 on the part of the occupiers to patrol the beach 12 themselves. 13 A: Before that -- before that time? 14 Q: No, around that time to patrol the 15 beach themselves? 16 A: I believe that was part of the 17 discussion that they didn't need the OPP to do that. 18 Q: Because -- because they were going to 19 be doing it? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar had asked you 22 some questions about some -- about what had been 23 happening on the beach in the area butting to the Park 24 over the summer of 1995. And I had a few more questions 25 for you about that.


1 We have some documents that have been made 2 exhibits. And just for the assistance of counsel, 3 they're Exhibit P-411 and Exhibit P-413. 4 The first P-411, Exhibit 411 is a document 5 entitled, CFB Ipperwash Incidents. And I think you told 6 us that those were -- is a recording of the incidents 7 that were reported over the course -- over a period of 8 time? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then the -- I'm sorry? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And the CFB incidents documents, 15 Exhibit 411 is 2004926 and the CFB intelligence report, 16 Exhibit P-413 is Inquiry Document 2004924. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On that list that -- 18 and just so that everybody knows, the document numbers 19 that I gave before and that we used for the exhibit and 20 the -- Deputy Carson has is 2002889 and 2002890. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: And, Commissioner, I do 22 not intend to take Deputy Commissioner Carson through all 23 of the incidents. What I'd like to do is -- is be able 24 to refer to some if we need to, some excerpts in those 25 two (2) documents and I'll indicate that as I go along.


1 If anyone has an issue or they want to go 2 through each and every one, I'm happy to do that, but I 3 think I can do it -- I'm going to try do it in a bit more 4 of a summary form. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 6 seems that if you do it in too summary a form -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I will do my best and 8 we'll see how it goes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- unhappy 10 if you go into too much detail others will be unhappy. 11 So, just try to strike the middle balance. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I will absolutely try 13 to strike to the balance and we'll see how I do. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: I take it, Deputy Commissioner, from 17 looking at in particular the summary of incidents that 18 over the course of the summer on the Military beach, 19 there were continuous problems or continuous issues that 20 arose? 21 A: There was ongoing activity -- 22 Q: Ongoing -- 23 A: -- for sure. 24 Q: -- activity. I'm sorry, that's a -- 25 A: Sure.


1 Q: -- better way to put it. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: And that ongoing activity included, 4 for example, occupiers driving on the beach and Matheson 5 Drive at a high rate of speed? 6 A: Oh, yes. 7 Q: And in an erratic manner? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Yelling at and harassing campers and 10 the public? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Shining spotlights on campers in the 13 Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you -- did you have any 16 personal knowledge of that? 17 Did you go down to the beach or the Camp 18 area from time to time and see what was going on? 19 A: I was down there a number of times, 20 particularly -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- through August of '95 while the 23 undercover campers were underway. Often times I went 24 down -- well, every time I went down there I was in 25 civilian dress or appropriate attire to the environment


1 and I was there during daylight hours. 2 I was there in the early evening hours and 3 I was there also as -- as late as midnight or those kinds 4 of hours at various times throughout the month of August. 5 The types of incidents that you speak to, 6 I certainly witnessed personally. 7 Q: And I -- I -- going through the 8 documents, and maybe you can assist me if this is an 9 accurate account, that kind of activity, the driving, the 10 yelling, the harassing, that sort of seems like it's 11 almost background, that that happened on a -- on -- that 12 was sort of regular things that went on during the course 13 of the summer. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I take it in addition to that, 16 there were a number of other incidents that occurred that 17 were of concern to the OPP? 18 A: Fair enough. 19 Q: Yeah. There were, I take it, reports 20 of theft over the course of the summer from people in the 21 Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: There were concerns about bottles and 24 rocks being thrown at cars -- 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: -- on Army Camp Road and other roads? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there were a number of incidents 4 where campers or members of the public who went onto the 5 Military beach, either by mistake or because they -- they 6 went there, would be threatened or harassed? 7 A: Yes, or basically told to get off. 8 Q: Yeah. And there are some specific 9 incidents on top of that. If we -- I take it that on one 10 (1) occasion on July the 3rd, there was a sexual assault 11 that was reported? 12 A: What -- what was the date of that 13 one? 14 Q: July the 3rd. 15 A: 3rd? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there was an incident on July the 19 10th on the Park beach where a native-driven car chased 20 five (5) teenagers into the Park campground and then 21 returned to the Park beach where, as I understand from 22 the documents, it came close on several occasions to 23 hitting a family walking on the beach? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, in fact, the man of the family


1 was -- oops, sorry -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 3 unfortunate that we have this configuration where Mr. 4 Ross has to walk such a long distance. I think we should 5 wait -- 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: My apologies, Mr. 7 Commissioner, but it seems as though there's an effort 8 here to classify -- in my view there's a -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What did you 10 say? I'm sorry. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Classify. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Classify. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Rather than 14 individualize criminals. If somebody is involved in a 15 sexual assault, he has a name, he has an identity. But 16 this very broad brush I hear about a native-driven car 17 and I don't know what that means and I would really like 18 the Witness to be put in a position where he can respond 19 definitively to specific questions rather than the very 20 broad brush approach. 21 I -- I really find it offensive, 22 representing the occupiers, that we're hearing things 23 like, "a native-driven car." I don't understand what 24 that means. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have to


1 find the right balance here between too much detail and 2 not enough. 3 Do you have an objection, too, Mr. 4 Falconer? Just a minute, Mr. Falconer's got the floor 5 here, Mr. Millar. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I simply -- and -- 7 and I won't be doing this every time, Mr. Commissioner, 8 but in this case I -- I -- on behalf of Aboriginal Legal 9 Services of Toronto I support Mr. Ross' objection for the 10 very reasons he states and the horrible stereotype it 11 creates, which is, if we're talking about natives and 12 we're talking about crime, here's all the crimes they 13 committed. 14 I mean, this isn't a way we would 15 ordinarily deal with others. We don't generally talk 16 about white people and there were white people on the 17 beach that month and the white people did this and the 18 white people did that. 19 It seems -- it's somewhat unfortunate that 20 we've got to this point, but I think Mr. Ross is -- is -- 21 is completely correct in his objection, with respect. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 23 Millar...? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I agree and I think 25 that it may have been -- part of the problem may be


1 there's so much redacted in these documents and we're -- 2 I think we've now finally got all of the consents so that 3 document can be un-redacted and there'll be names un- 4 redacted, but I -- I agree with Mr. Ross. 5 There's got to be some way, because it's 6 unfair to generalize to such a degree. Particular people 7 do particular things no matter who they are and what 8 racial background or religious background or ethnic -- 9 any kind of background and it -- it -- there is a 10 generalization going on here, which I agree with Mr. Ross 11 is unfair. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 13 going to have to do a little more classifying of what -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. -- Mr. 15 Commissioner, if I can ask you to look behind you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: What I can indicate to 18 you is that the documentation that we have been provided 19 to date has been redacted and so specific names of people 20 are taken out. 21 And so, I hear the concern, Mr. 22 Commissioner, but I would like to make it really clear 23 for the record that the information we have is redacted, 24 so in terms of being able to say a particular person did 25 this or particular people did that or a group of people,


1 identified people were engaged in particular conduct, 2 it's very hard to do it when the documentation that we 3 have been given has all of that information blackened 4 out. 5 And I'm a little -- in terms of 6 perceiving, I hear from Mr. Millar that there's now a 7 circumstance where because some people have given 8 consent, we're able to have documents that are not 9 redacted. 10 However, those documents haven't been 11 provided to us yet and so, in terms of perceiving, I 12 don't want, Mr. Commissioner, to -- there to be a 13 misperception about what it is that I'm asking the Deputy 14 Commissioner. 15 But on the other hand, given the documents 16 that we have to use, I'm not sure how I can be specific 17 in terms of which individual engaged in which particular 18 conduct, because that information is not available. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think, 20 well, let's see if Mr. Ross or Mr. Millar have a 21 suggestion as to how we can move forward. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: As you see, Mr. 23 Commissioner, with respect, all the First Nation 24 witnesses have taken the stand. 25 All of them were able to be asked and they


1 all consented, with respect to their criminal records and 2 they were all read into the Court record, and even as far 3 as the sexual assault is concerned, there was a specific 4 witness. 5 He was asked about it. If she wants to go 6 back to the record, I don't know what it's going to do, 7 what it's going to add. 8 He was already here and it has been dealt 9 with. So for whatever purpose, I just like to point out 10 that a lot of it is already on the record. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 12 think what she's asking what Deputy Carson's knowledge of 13 these incidents and events is. 14 She's just asking -- 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Which I think she's 16 very, very welcome to do, but she must ask him about the 17 event so that he can give an answer that I can deal with 18 my examination. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 20 perhaps we can find a level of detail that's sufficient 21 to satisfy what you need and allows Ms. Jones to ask the 22 question appropriately. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Mr. 24 Commissioner, here's my proposal, which -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks


1 like we have -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: -- is that what I -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- some 4 more -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: -- could -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It looks 7 like we're going to have some more -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 10 objections or observations. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Commissioner, with 12 respect, it's not a question of the level of the detail 13 and it's not a question of whether the names are there or 14 not, what is the purpose of this? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: What is -- I think 17 My Friend is obviously trying to do exactly what Mr. Ross 18 indicated she was trying to do, namely to paint a 19 community by going through isolated incidents. 20 And we'd have to have statistics as to how 21 does that compare to other communities and so on under -- 22 under certain circumstances. 23 It's not a question of the specifics or 24 the names, the question is what is the point of this line 25 of questioning?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'll 2 let her explain it. I had the impression that she was 3 asking this witness what his knowledge and his 4 understanding was and that she was trying to focus the 5 questions on this witness. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, but is she 7 suggesting that this witness came to the conclusion that 8 these -- these Stoney Point people were bad or what? 9 I mean, what -- what's the point of it? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'll 11 give her a chance to explain it. 12 Yes, Mr. Henderson...? 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: My point is 14 slightly different, Commissioner, and it's -- it is along 15 the lines of the -- of the same point that was raised by 16 My Friend, Mr. Ross. 17 Many people consult the transcript rather 18 than the live webcast and, of course, where we can see 19 the difficulty that Ms. Jones might be having, the 20 transcript will never show that. 21 So if it's simply -- if the transcript 22 simply reads, you know, car driven by natives, then the 23 problem is there, the potential is there, the perception 24 is there in the transcript, unexplained and standing 25 alone.


1 So perhaps there's some middle way to deal 2 with this, either by being able -- putting Counsel in a 3 position to provide the actual specifics, or the names of 4 individuals or whatever, or to somehow explain in each 5 case why a particular terminology is being used. 6 If Counsel is really -- really doesn't 7 have any choice, at least then the transcript will not 8 create the impression of painting a group with a broad 9 brush when, in fact, we're talking about specific conduct 10 by specific individuals. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 12 Millar...? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, actually July 14 3rd is a perfect example. It's a -- it's an unknown 15 person. There's no -- it's an unknown person and -- and 16 it's not -- so it's an unknown -- identified as a male of 17 -- native. 18 What we can do, is we cannot scan these, 19 because we've just recently got the final consent to do 20 this, so that what we can do is, overnight, create a copy 21 of four eleven (411) and the other one, four thirteen 22 (413), with a paper copy and blacked out and make copies 23 and distribute the copies first thing tomorrow morning 24 with the redactions removed for which we've now got 25 consent and there would be names.


1 And -- but just so -- you know -- if the - 2 - and that's what -- that's one way we can do this. 3 But usually there is, in many of these, 4 some -- the fact that there's an incident that's recorded 5 doesn't mean it happened. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. OrkinĂs 7 on the way in. Yes, sir. 8 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I've 9 been hesitating to rise on this point since before this 10 debate began on this particular discussion. 11 But I think that the point of blanket 12 community stigmatisation is still understated in this 13 context. And to quote from Inspector Fox on a 14 conversation of the tape that was played earlier, once 15 read in the newspaper this sounds like stuff that our 16 kids get involved in. 17 And I think if we're going to be led 18 through a litany of this kind of table, we ought also to 19 have this -- this expert witness, in terms of policing, 20 led through similar reporting of the broader community 21 that he served at -- at a similar time. 22 We also need -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 24 I'm not sure what you mean by that. 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: We're having a


1 snapshot into -- into one particular geographic location 2 of the broader geographic area that Inspector Linton was 3 responsible for at the time, now Deputy Commissioner 4 Linton. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean 6 incidents that were recorded? 7 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: What I'm saying is 8 let's place this information about incident events 9 related to potential criminal activity placed in a 10 broader context. And then let's perhaps also have some 11 expert testimony about Aboriginal criminalization. But 12 that's the part this is leading to. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 14 fine. Thank you. 15 MS. JONES...? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: One of the things that 20 -- to know this witness' knowledge -- actually this 21 witness has his notes, you can ask him questions about 22 his notes if he knows anything about a particular 23 incident and ask him about his notes. 24 This is an incident log. For example, his 25 name, Deputy Commissioner Carson, is noted at July 2nd,


1 '95. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where -- 3 where is that I -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The second from the 5 bottom. That's an entry he made from something he did. 6 The next one is an entry made by Constable Speck with 7 respect to something that -- that was reported to have 8 happened on July 3rd. 9 But, at any rate, Ms. Vella is going to -- 10 we can have, for everybody, hopefully tomorrow morning, a 11 copy with the names un-redacted that we're entitled to 12 un-redact. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well that's 14 fine. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But I canĂt do it this 16 afternoon. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 18 what is your -- what is your proposal? Well how do you - 19 - what is it that you're trying to do with this line of 20 questions? Perhaps thatĂs a good way to put it. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. This -- I've 22 been asking Deputy Commissioner Carson a number of 23 questions about what he understood was going on because 24 that, in part, informs him. And about what the response 25 or what is required on the OPP. And it also gives some


1 measure of, in his understanding and in his experience, 2 which has been quite long at Ipperwash, changes that have 3 occurred over time. 4 As I said earlier I don't plan to go 5 through all of the incidents and if there's -- I have a 6 few left and if there is a way that -- that I can address 7 those that is both -- and -- and I hear the concerns 8 about the lack of specificity in the documents. 9 If I can deal with those in a way that 10 works better, I would like to have a chance to do that. 11 And one of the things that maybe I can do -- I -- I heard 12 what Mr. Millar said about the box on the chart where it 13 says ˘Carson.÷ 14 But one of the things and -- and as I 15 understand those would have been things that Deputy 16 Commissioner Carson was directly -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Involved in. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- involved in at the 19 time. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 21 right. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: I also understand 23 though from his evidence that he would have been 24 receiving reports on an ongoing basis. Particularly in 25 August of 1995 about what was happening because that was


1 something that was really important at the time. 2 And so my understanding is that these 3 documents had been put in because they were documents 4 about things that the Deputy Commissioner had received 5 information on. 6 And I'm not asking him questions because 7 he -- for many of them, because he has personal knowledge 8 of them, but because they would have been incidents that 9 had been brought to his attention, that he would have had 10 to have taken into account in his assessment of what was 11 going on and what needed to happen. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Well-- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: And what I propose to 14 do a -- a couple of things, because I don't have a lot of 15 incidents that I wanted to go through. I've asked him 16 some questions about his personal experience and what he 17 observed that happened on an ongoing basis. 18 I have a few incidents I wanted to ask him 19 specifically about. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are these 21 incidents that you know he was involved in or you know he 22 wasn't or you just want to know if he knows anything 23 about them? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, perhaps, one (1) 25 way -- I -- if he knows about them and if they were


1 things that he -- if -- if they were something that he 2 knew of at the time. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you able 4 to refer to these incidents that you want to with enough 5 detail that they can be -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, what I -- what I 7 suggest or -- or one (1) way, perhaps, that we can deal 8 with that is, I can refer to a... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 13 Sandler...? 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm not embarking in 15 the debate on -- on the relevance or lack of relevance of 16 the -- of the examination, I'm just trying to provide 17 some assistance. 18 I'd suggest that, with respect, this part 19 of the cross-examination, perhaps, be deferred and the 20 reason I -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 22 I was going to say. 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- the reason I 24 suggest that is simply this, and -- and I want to make 25 clear what has happened here.


1 The redactions have been made by the OPP 2 so as not to unduly interfere with the privacy interests 3 of the people who are named in these documents that are 4 intended for internal use and not for public 5 dissemination. 6 But I gather that there's -- there -- as a 7 result of consents that have been provided by parties who 8 have standing and -- and who are named in the reports, 9 there is a less redacted version of the document that is 10 making its way through Commission Counsel and ultimately 11 will make its way to -- to the OPPA and other parties. 12 And it may well be that if Ms. Jones is in 13 a position to review that document, that would be of 14 assistance in focussing where the cross-examination is 15 going. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 17 should stand this part of the cross-examination down. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 19 Commissioner, I will do that. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: Deputy Commissioner, was it your view 23 over the course of the summer of 1995 and particularly 24 throughout August of 1995 that there was, from your 25 experience, more tension and more clashes, if you would,


1 as between the OPP and the occupiers? 2 A: I think classifying it as "tension" 3 is probably an appropriate term, yes. 4 Q: Okay. Okay. And you talked a little 5 bit about your view about the relationship as between the 6 Military and the occupiers as being one where the conduct 7 of the Military in part helped create that friction? 8 A: I -- I would agree with that. 9 Q: Okay. And were you of the view, or 10 did you know of -- as -- we'll hear evidence from the 11 officers involved in a number of incidents down the road, 12 but I anticipate that what we'll hear from them and I'd 13 be interested if it coincides with your view and your 14 understanding that on -- that the purpose of the OPP was 15 not to interfere, if that was possible, and to try and 16 be, in essence, unobtrusive, if that was possible in the 17 circumstances? 18 A: I guess I'm not maybe very clear on 19 interfere. If there's criminal activity -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: -- the OPP will take whatever steps 22 is necessary to investigate. As far as the dispute 23 between the Military and the occupiers in regards to the 24 return of the Military Base or the land claim of the 25 Base, clearly we did not want to interfere.


1 We were certainly trying to, for lack of a 2 better term, take the middle ground. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Certainly, issues like the 5 confrontation over the ATV patrol certainly was not 6 helpful. For example, those patrols were put in place 7 for everyone's benefit to -- to provide some peace of 8 mind, to ensure there was visibility in the area of the - 9 - of the police and to reassure that the police were in 10 patrolling the area and that everything was calm, for 11 lack of a better term, peaceful. 12 Those kinds of incidents where the 13 occupiers got into the -- into the confrontation with the 14 -- with the officers in that light, certainly exacerbated 15 that perception. 16 Q: Okay. And you had talked briefly and 17 answered questions from Mr. Millar about Gustafson 18 (phonetic) Lake -- 19 A: I'm sorry? 20 Q: Gustafson Lake. 21 A: Oh, yes, yes. 22 Q: Because we know that that was 23 occurring about that time. 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And in your view, how -- how did you


1 consider that and what, if any, impact did you think that 2 might have on the circumstances? 3 A: The potential concern was the 4 behaviour in Gustafson lake, if it was seen to have 5 brought a successful outcome from the perception of the 6 occupiers, may be something that could be emulated at 7 Ipperwash. 8 And what concerned me, there was clearly 9 in Gustafson Lake in -- in the very -- in the days just 10 proceeding Labour Day weekend, clearly the RCMP had come 11 under fire from -- from the occupiers in Gustafson Lake 12 and that was certainly something I was very mindful of. 13 Q: Okay. And I wanted to move then on 14 to September the 4th and after the Park was occupied. 15 You've told us that you had received some information. 16 You talked about the potential contingency plans you had 17 about, you know, one perhaps being a co-habitation 18 arrangement and that kind of thing. 19 And were you surprised, when you heard on 20 September the 4th, that an OPP car that was in the Park 21 had been attacked and the window broken with a stick? 22 Was that -- was that something that you 23 had thought would happen? 24 A: I certainly knew it was a potential, 25 but I was, for lack of a better term, keeping my fingers


1 crossed that that, in fact, would not happen. 2 Q: Okay. And we've heard evidence that 3 George Speck and others in the Park at the time, and in 4 particular George, were well known to the people in the 5 area and, for example, Roderick George, who had broken 6 the window, knew George. 7 Were you of the view that -- that the 8 relationship and the ongoing background between people 9 like George Speck and -- would be something that would be 10 of assistance at the time? 11 Were you surprised that that would happen 12 when he was there? 13 A: I would suggest that, first of all, 14 most of the people who were in Ipperwash, on the Base, 15 probably know George Speck on a first name basis because 16 of his -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Everybody knows George. The fact 19 that he was there, I wouldn't suggest would be the 20 antidote that would prevent any altercation, but I would 21 -- I would hope that his presence would certainly reduce 22 the gravity of it. 23 Q: And in your experience, was that the 24 first time that there had been an interaction between the 25 OPP and the occupiers where damage had been done to a


1 vehicle in that kind of a manner. 2 A: Yeah, off the top of my head I don't 3 recall any other damage is done to any -- any -- any of 4 the OPP vehicles -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- specific to -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- CFB Ipperwash. 9 Q: Right. And you've talked with Mr. 10 Millar about the attempts that you made and others made 11 to try and establish a dialogue or open negotiations with 12 the occupier and the lack of success in doing that. 13 In your experience, was this the first 14 time that the OPP had been unable to communication with 15 or negotiation with or open a dialogue with -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- the occupiers? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 20 from a number of the witnesses, particularly over the 21 course of the fall, over some of the steps that were 22 taken in the Park to make defensive efforts. And we 23 heard, for example, from Marlin Simon that on -- at least 24 on the 6th and perhaps on the 5th, that there was an 25 amassing of rocks, that the occupiers had tire irons or


1 pipes and that they were building up those kind of 2 defences. 3 In your experience, was that the first 4 time in the experience between the OPP and the occupiers 5 that that had happened? 6 A: Yes, it was. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And we've also heard that on at least 12 on the 6th, that the bus was put back into commission, 13 that it was started up and gassed up and ready to go and 14 was that something -- and I take it from your notes that 15 there were reports you were receiving about the bus being 16 used and vehicles in the area? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And did that cause you any particular 19 concern having the bus in action, given -- 20 A: It did. 21 Q: Yeah. And what was that? 22 A: Well, that was the vehicle that had 23 been used in the -- the drill hall incident and some 24 other incidents and it -- it appeared when there was 25 going to be some aggressive behaviour, that the bus was


1 part and parcel of that in most cases; the ones that were 2 of significance, anyway. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: And certainly as it appears in the 5 Provincial Park, it certainly was a -- a cause for 6 questioning what it was going to be used for now that it 7 was there. 8 Q: Right. I wanted to ask you a few 9 questions about your view or concerns that you had at the 10 time for the cottagers. 11 One of the things that you've told us is 12 that the, you know, you heard that there's an intent to 13 take over the built-up area and it happened, an intent to 14 the Park and it happened. And the time between those 15 incidents seemed to be lessening. 16 Did you have information or a view at that 17 time about, or had you heard about any intent to take 18 over the cottages in the area or expand the area beyond 19 the Park? 20 A: Well, the -- the commentary on the 21 cottages, I mean, that came up a number of times from a 22 number of different sources and there was certainly a 23 concern about the risk that may be present, but it was 24 clear that, you know, the Ipperwash Park was next. 25 It was something that we heard, you know,


1 being yelled from the sand dunes at people who were 2 utilizing the Provincial Park during the month of August 3 and to others who utilized the -- walked on the beach, 4 that the Park was going to be taken over soon and the 5 difficulty -- well, and at the same time there was common 6 -- similar commentary about the cottages, the property 7 from Ipperwash to Kettle Point. 8 And the difficulty was, is that all of 9 those threats came to pass and I was certainly mindful of 10 that and I certainly was concerned because I knew the -- 11 as we've talked about earlier, that there certainly was a 12 -- a sense in the community about community concern and 13 there had been issues or concern with the Ministry of 14 Natural Resources about the campers who used the 15 Provincial Park. 16 So in my view, it was something I 17 certainly had to be very mindful of as, you know, events 18 might progress. 19 Q: And given that concern of yours, did 20 that come into play on September the 5th in the 21 evening, when you and others received information that 22 the occupiers had moved out into the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Well, particularly, the -- the 24 initial -- through the night the incident where the 25 officers went down where the fire was on the roadway and


1 the -- and three (3) cruisers were damaged, my sense of 2 that was, that was an ambush and I was concerned about us 3 becoming the, for lack of a better term, the 4 entertainment in -- in that type of a circumstance. 5 But when it broke light and all the -- the 6 group -- I think it was twenty-one (21) picnic tables 7 were out on the parking lot near the roadway, it 8 certainly caused, you know, some thought around, you 9 know, what -- what -- you know, what kind of a message 10 was that trying to deliver that, you know, that we were 11 not as -- as the police or the public allowed to utilize 12 that parking lot or was that extending the boundary of 13 the Provincial Park so to speak. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But long story short, you know, we 16 took the -- the steps to remove the picnic tables and 17 with the intention or hope of sending the message that 18 activity out there and particularly blocking that area 19 off, would be addressed, should that occur. 20 Q: Okay. And we heard some evidence 21 again from Marlin Simon that on the evening of September 22 the 5th, when the picnic tables were moved out to the 23 sandy parking lot, that when the OPP had first come to 24 the area, that there was one (1) car with a couple of 25 people -- couple of officers in it and that they had


1 asked the occupiers to go back into the Park and that 2 they had refused to do that. 3 And we also heard some evidence about the 4 number of occupiers who were in the area in -- in 5 relation to the officers and that there was -- in Mr. 6 Simon's testimony there was some -- at least some verbal 7 aggression towards the officers and we've heard that one 8 (1) -- one (1) of the officers used his car to move a 9 picnic table and I wondered if you could give us some 10 sense of your view about -- in circumstances whether it 11 would be something that would be appropriate or 12 reasonable for an officer to do? 13 A: To move a picnic table with a car? 14 Q: Hmm hmm. Hmm hmm. 15 A: Well, in regards to that whole event, 16 if I could just kind of walk through the chronology -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- as you -- as you outlined it. 19 First, I was -- I was of the perception 20 that the fire occurred on the -- there was a fire on the 21 roadway in -- in near the entrance to the Park proper and 22 that the officers went to check it and when they checked 23 that area, found themselves being bombarded with rocks. 24 I -- I didn't -- I didn't perceive the 25 issue with a picnic table and a picnic table being pushed


1 by a vehicle. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: That -- that information I -- I 4 didn't have the clarity of that information. In fact I - 5 - quite frankly I only read about it in transcripts of 6 this process. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: So -- so that was news to me. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: But as far as the appropriateness of 11 moving a picnic table with a cruiser, I -- I guess I'm 12 hard pressed to -- to really have a lot of comment on 13 that because without knowing the facts of the 14 circumstances that the officer was faced with, it's 15 pretty hard for me to second guess that decision, not 16 being there -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- understanding the moment. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: And there may be times when that's 21 the only means to do it or the most expeditious way of 22 doing it and there's other times when it would be totally 23 inappropriate. 24 Q: Sure, the range. Is that -- in your 25 understanding, was that sandy parking lot also the access


1 to some of the cottages that were closest to the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No? There was a different laneway to 4 them? 5 A: That was -- there's a driveway that 6 was directly -- I'm pretty sure, if my memory serves me 7 correctly, there's a driveway directly off Parkway that 8 provides access to the cottage. 9 Q: Okay. I then wanted to move on and 10 fairly briefly because I know Mr. Millar covered a lot of 11 the information about the emergency response team and 12 TRU. 13 But I did want to clarify, if I could, how 14 you, as incident commander, worked with them and it's -- 15 it's what areas, because of their skill and expertise in 16 being on the ground, they would move forward in an 17 operation and where it was that they would take direction 18 from you or you would intervene. 19 I just wanted to see if we could spend a 20 few minutes -- 21 A: Are you referring me to the command 22 structure and -- and how -- 23 Q: We're referring to the -- yeah. And 24 -- and to the command structure and your role as incident 25 commander in interacting both with -- and I'll deal with


1 the CMU as opposed to the ERT because I specifically 2 thought it would be helpful if we looked at the 3 relationship that night and who was sort of in charge and 4 what and how that worked. 5 A: Okay. Well what's important to 6 appreciate -- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- is that the TRU team, the Tactics 9 and Rescue Unit, because as -- as the Inquiry have seen, 10 their uniforms are -- are very similar in many respects, 11 it's easy to confuse what's a TRU team and what is a ERT 12 or a crowd management team so -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- that creates some difficulty. But 15 they have very specific and distinctly separate 16 responsibilities. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: The tactics and response from a TRU 19 team is under the direction of a staff sergeant. And 20 that was Staff Sergeant Kent Skinner that -- that 21 evening. 22 The staff sergeant will, in any major 23 incident, be in the command or the TOC, depending on the 24 geography of the moment, will be with the incident 25 commander. The -- the tactical -- the tactical leader is


1 there to provide advice to the incident commander. But 2 the incident commander is the person responsible for the 3 final decision making. 4 Likewise, when you -- when you move to the 5 ERT or crowd management team, that team was led by a 6 staff sergeant. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: And that staff sergeant reports back 9 to the incident commander and the incident commander 10 directs the staff sergeant. And so in this particular 11 case, I briefed Staff Sergeant Lacroix in regards to the 12 expectations of how the crowd management team will be 13 used and then it becomes his responsibility as it moves 14 forward and he's given approval to move forward, to take 15 the team in and conduct the crowd management manoeuvres. 16 Q: Is it -- is a -- is a fair way to 17 think about it is that, as incident commander, you would 18 outline for the CMU or TRU, the goal what -- what it was 19 they were suppose to do or intended to achieve and the 20 parameters of the operation. 21 That is if there was some place they 22 couldn't go or could go or there was some particular 23 concern that had to be addressed in that way? 24 A: That's fair. 25 Q: And outside of that both the CMU and


1 the TRU, because of their training and expertise, would 2 really be the ones on the ground to determine what the 3 best way to fulfill the goal or the task was, or is it 4 that not accurate? 5 A: No, no. That's -- that's fair. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And, it's very much accurate. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: When the TRU officer finds their way 10 into the position where, and for lack of a better term, 11 they normally operate under cover and concealment. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: I mean, they're obviously looking -- 14 in this particular case, their primary role was 15 observation and literally protection for the crowd 16 management team -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: keeping -- keeping in perspective 19 that the crowd management team is moving forward on foot 20 with a shield in one hand and a baton in the opposite 21 hand. 22 So, in -- in this grand scheme of things, 23 they have limited ability to manoeuver from an ASP baton 24 or whatever kind of baton to -- to a firearm if the 25 requirement for force gets raised.


1 So, the TRU team provides the cover so -- 2 and basically the eyes of the incident commander to 3 understand what's going on to the -- to the best of 4 everybody's ability so the -- so the TRU team observers 5 are put in place and are required to do their best to 6 keep the staff sergeant TRU team leader, thereby the 7 incident commander, apprised of the status on an -- on an 8 ongoing basis. 9 Q: Okay. And, I think you've talked a 10 little bit about -- and it's clear from your evidence 11 that there were periods of time on the course of the 12 night of September the 6th, when you would be giving 13 directions based on the information you had about, for 14 example, to retreat or to stop or to do that kind of 15 thing? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And, that would be based on the 18 information that you got from TRU? 19 A: Well, the information -- 20 Q: And -- 21 A: -- I'm collecting from the TRU -- 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: -- and -- and the crowd management 24 team if -- depending on what state they're at. 25 Q: Okay. And, you had talked a little


1 bit earlier about the reason for involving TRU and, as I 2 take it, that was in the event that there was a problem 3 with the CMU where they needed additional protection; is 4 that right? 5 A: Yeah. It's -- it's operating as -- 6 as what we would term a 'cover team'. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But also, ERT or, I'm sorry, 9 correction, TRU -- TRU officers were deployed initially 10 to provide information in regards to the -- the 11 gatehouse -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- or the Park in regards to some 14 activity that was occurring there and anticipate or 15 determine if there were sight lines form the gatehouse to 16 the sandy parking lot. 17 Q: Right. And then, when the CMU was 18 going down the road towards the sandy parking lot, I take 19 it that the duty of TRU at that point in time or what 20 their task was, was two-fold, both as an observational 21 role to see what was going on and, as you say, be your 22 eyes, but it was also to protect the CMU if they were 23 threatened by gunfire or by guns? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Right. And, I take it that the TRU


1 members had an obligation to take action if they believed 2 that a CMU member or members were being threatened by 3 gunfire? 4 A: And -- and I -- I would categorize it 5 that they were obliged -- if they felt there was a threat 6 to the life of another, they were obliged to act no 7 different than any police officer who perceives a threat 8 to another human being is expected to act. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I mean, it's a fundamental 11 requirement of -- of every police officer. 12 Q: And, I take it, one (1) of -- one (1) 13 of the reasons, although every police officer has that 14 duty that TRU members would be employed from time to 15 time, was because of their expertise and their training 16 and their ability to operate under different 17 circumstances? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Yeah. I wanted to -- sorry, Mr. 20 Commissioner, I wonder, it is about -- just about 3:30. 21 I don't have long to go, but I wonder if this would be a 22 good time now for a break? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If we took a 24 break, would that -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- assist 2 you now? That's fine, we'll take a break now. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for fifteen (15) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 3:26 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 3:46 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Deputy Commissioner, you were asked a 16 number of questions about the uniforms that were worn by 17 ERT and by TRU, and I just wanted to confirm with you, in 18 your understanding, whether there -- I anticipate that 19 we'll hear evidence that behind the CMU was a group of 20 officers who were arresting officers, or who were there 21 to arrest if arrests arose; the need to arrest arose. 22 My understanding is that the arresting 23 officers would not have been in the full hard TAC or the 24 hard protective gear that you showed yesterday. 25 Is that -- is that accurate?


1 A: That's fair, that's fair. 2 Q: So, they would have only had soft 3 gear on, their -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- uniforms? 6 A: What -- they refer to it as soft TAC 7 or hard TAC. 8 Q: Okay. And so the hard -- if 9 someone's wearing hard TAC, they have hard protective 10 gear on that you showed yesterday? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: So, the knee pads and the -- 13 A: Elbow pads -- 14 Q: Elbow pads. 15 A: And the shoulder pads. 16 Q: And the shoulder pads. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And soft -- 19 A: And helmet. 20 Q: -- TAC would be -- 21 A: It would be the grey uniform minus 22 the protective -- 23 Q: Gear. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And one of the things I wanted


1 to ask you, Deputy Commissioner, and I've asked you about 2 a number of -- when a certain incident happened, what the 3 response was around. 4 And I realize I didn't ask you that about 5 when the park was taken over, what was the response that 6 you heard that you -- or needed to take into account, 7 first of all from the Kettle and Stony Point Band? You-- 8 A: In regards to the Park itself? 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: Well, the -- when the Park was taken 11 over the evening of September 4th, it was early the next 12 morning once I had a few minutes to spare that I 13 contacted Chief Bressette. 14 And I believe -- I believe we heard that 15 conversation. 16 Q: Yes, we did. 17 A: And I certainly got a sense from 18 Chief Bressette, that much like some of the other 19 incidents he certainly did not condone or support the 20 activity in any way. 21 Q: And in terms of the people who lived 22 in the area and the cottagers, did you hear or hear from 23 them about their views of their concerns? 24 A: Well in a couple of different ways. 25 Clearly there was discussion with the township of


1 Bosanquet with Mayor Thomas in particular and with the 2 administrator also. 3 There was certainly discussion and concern 4 raised there and, quite frankly, from the general 5 community, simply going into a coffee shop that was -- 6 that was the discussion as soon as you walked in. It was 7 certainly significant event in the community, I would 8 suggest. 9 Q: Yeah. Deputy Commissioner, I had 10 asked you a question earlier about the -- whether 11 blocking off the access to the sandy parking lot would 12 block off accesses to a cottage or cottages, and I don't 13 know if this assists you, but I thought perhaps it might. 14 Behind you is exhibit -- and I'm sorry, I 15 can't see the number from here,. It should be right in 16 front of my nose, but I can't see it. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: P-162. And that's a schematic or a 21 drawing of the area around the sandy parking lot that has 22 been used on a number of occasions in this Inquiry. I 23 understand it may not be exactly accurate or exactly to 24 scale. 25 A: Fair enough.


1 Q: But, I'm not -- it at least appears 2 from that diagram that there's an entrance to a cottage 3 that is... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: ...directly off the sandy parking 8 lot. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And I just wondered if that gave you 11 any assistance at all as to -- 12 A: If -- if the blockage was across the 13 mouth of this area here where -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- in proximity to the asphalt 16 portion of the roadway, clearly, it does interfere with 17 the access here. It just -- it just depends where it is 18 as opposed to, in this area, versus, out closer to the 19 actual highway itself. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I guess in my -- from memory I was 22 thinking that it was actually more out in this area where 23 the driveway was, just off the top of my head. 24 Q: Okay. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the exhibit on the


1 screen is Exhibit P-23 on which all these other exhibits 2 are based. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Deputy Commissioner, I then wanted to 6 ask you a few questions about the atmosphere and some of 7 the circumstances that arose after the shooting on 8 September the 6th. 9 I take it that it was an extremely tense 10 and, to some extent, chaotic situation. 11 A: That's fair. 12 Q: And that because there had been 13 gunfire. 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: I take it your understanding at that 16 time is that the police had been fired on? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: From the bus and from the car? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At that point in time, initially, you 21 didn't know who had been shot? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: You didn't know who had been hurt 24 from other mechanisms? 25 A: No.


1 Q: And I take it that your first 2 priority then was to try and maintain some control and 3 try and ensure safety for everyone? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And in those circumstances 6 where there has been shooting and the sort of parameters 7 of what's going on are unknown, which I take they would 8 have been at that time. 9 I take it safety would have been an 10 extraordinary concern? 11 A: That's -- that's fair, yes, 12 absolutely. 13 Q: Yeah. In part because you wouldn't 14 know who was armed? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And you wouldn't know where they 17 would go or what they would do? 18 A: True. 19 Q: Okay. And so in terms of some of the 20 security that was in place, you've already talked about 21 the checkpoints and I take it from the time of the 22 shooting on, that those checkpoints would have been a 23 very important mechanism to try and ensure safety? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that it would be normal under


1 cert -- under such circumstances, if such a word could be 2 used, that vehicles would be stopped? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That there would be a heightened 5 concern about there being people with guns or guns in 6 vehicles? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that it would be the 9 responsibility of the officers, at the checkpoints, to 10 take all steps they needed to? 11 A: Well in regards to the checkpoints, I 12 -- I believe you would find there was some direction as 13 to how they set up those checkpoints given the risks that 14 -- that were being faced. 15 Q: Yeah. And given the circumstances, I 16 take it, in your view, that it wouldn't have been safe or 17 it wouldn't have been prudent, for example, to have 18 others to into the Base or in the Park? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And, for example, it would not be 21 safe or appropriate to have medical personnel or 22 ambulance go into the Base or the Park at that time? 23 A: Particularly unescorted. 24 Q: Yeah. And we've heard some evidence 25 about a requirement, when an ambulance was needed down by


1 the main gate for the person to be brought outside of the 2 Base and brought out to the ambulance outside. 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And, I take it that that would be 5 something that would be reasonable in the circumstances? 6 A: I believe it would be, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And, we've also heard some 8 evidence regarding Marcia Simon, which was almost very 9 shortly after the shooting that a vehicle had left the 10 Base and had gone through a checkpoint and had started 11 going down the highway? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And that, the vehicle had not stopped 14 even though it was being followed by police that had 15 their emergency lights on? 16 A: That's my understanding, yes. 17 Q: And, I take it in those circumstances 18 and given what had happened, that that would be a very 19 serious concern? 20 A: Yes. I would suggest that any 21 officer would treat that in a very high risk fashion. 22 Q: Okay. And, can you assist us, from 23 your perspective, about the meaning of 'high risk' and 24 what that means in terms of a response from the police? 25 A: When I -- when I speak of a high risk


1 fashion, I mean you're -- you're taking into 2 consideration factors where your own personal safety may 3 be at risk. 4 In -- in this case, given the gunfire that 5 had taken place, there was a potential or risk of 6 vehicles exiting the Military Base that may have been 7 involved in the altercation at the sandy parking lot. 8 So, when an officer would attempt to stop 9 a vehicle that had the potential of being involved in 10 that type of situation, that also would lead them to 11 believe there is a potential of weapons being available 12 to the occupants of that vehicle. And until such time as 13 they were able to determine, in fact, that wasn't the 14 case, they would have to treat it as though there was 15 weapons until proven otherwise. 16 So, no different than, for instance, if 17 there's a pursuit on the highway and there's reason to 18 believe the people involved in -- in the vehicle have 19 some violent background, they would -- they would stop 20 the vehicle and bring the -- bring the occupants of the 21 vehicle out of it at gunpoint. 22 Q: And, I wanted to ask you a few 23 questions about the containment of the scene afterwards. 24 One (1) of the things that you talked a little bit about 25 this afternoon was after the helicopter shooting, the


1 need to contain an area quickly and ensure people aren't 2 moving in or that there isn't a contamination of the 3 scene. 4 And, I understand that following the 5 shooting and after the CMU and the TRU retreated back to 6 the TOC, that there was no containment of the area around 7 the sandy parking lot at all? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And, no containment at all of even 10 the vehicles that had been used, the bus and the car? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And, in fact, that situation remained 13 like that for some twelve (12) days? 14 A: I believe that's the right number of 15 days, yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And, that would not be, I take 17 it, your preferred circumstance at all when there's a 18 crime scene? 19 A: Well, quite frankly, to -- to 20 determine any -- with any level of certainty to examine a 21 crime scene after that many days is just fraught with 22 errors and -- 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: -- certainly lacks any ability to 25 collect the necessary evidence to support any indication


1 of what events may have taken place. 2 Q: Right. And, in the circumstances, 3 normally it would be very, very important to secure the 4 crime scene? 5 A: In most cases where there would be 6 firearms, altercation of any sort, the scene would be 7 secured absolutely until completely -- until a complete 8 and thorough investigation is conducted by the -- our 9 forensic identification or whatever police departments 10 identification unit would be required to attend. 11 That is such a very basic requirement of - 12 - of any serious scene including protecting it from the 13 elements if necessary. And we have to do it from time to 14 time even using things like tents to preserve the -- the 15 cover of the earth for instance during rain or -- or snow 16 or other inclement weather. 17 It's -- it's of extreme importance for the 18 valuation of the evidence and for the production of 19 evidence for Court purposes. 20 Q: And in this case, I take it that was 21 impossible because you had to make a choice between 22 safety and protecting the site? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And you chose safety? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Yeah. And Deputy Commissioner, I -- 2 I wanted to take you back I think to your view and your 3 hope that for a variety of reasons and in part because of 4 the relationship between the OPP and the occupiers and 5 the measures that you were trying to take to keep a calm, 6 to the extent possible, in the circumstances on the 4th, 7 5th and 6th. 8 I take it that when you were sitting in 9 the TOC and you were listening to what was going on with 10 the CMU and you heard that fire -- that the police were 11 being fired on from the bus and the car and were 12 returning fire and that someone had been shot and gone in 13 the Park. 14 I take it that that would have been your 15 worst nightmare and the thing you wanted most not to 16 happen? 17 A: I would classify that as an 18 understatement. 19 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, those are my 20 questions but for one (1) matter. And I'm not sure that 21 I'll be able to deal with that matter today. I assume it 22 would take me a very, very short period of time to do it 23 tomorrow morning. 24 And I'm wondering if I could have your 25 indulgence to end now but perhaps have between five (5)


1 and ten (10) minutes tomorrow morning. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 3 would work. Mr. Millar -- I think the next examiner is 4 the Province of Ontario. Do you think you could -- I 5 forget what your estimate was, an hour was it? 6 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Up to an hour. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you -- 8 would you prefer to wait til tomorrow morning or -- 9 MS. KIM TWOHIG: I'm going to... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're going to -- I 14 missed -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She -- she 16 would prefer to do it tomorrow morning. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it's seven (7) 18 minutes after 4:00. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 20 could adjourn for the day and start with Ms. Jones, in 21 the morning. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Start with Ms. Jones 23 and then -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then do 25 the Province of Ontario.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Mr. 3 Falconer -- yes, Mr. Falconer. 4 So, that's fine then, Ms. Jones, we'll 5 start tomorrow morning with your -- yes, Mr. Falconer. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It just seemed like 7 twenty-three (23) minutes was just such a big chunk of 8 time to let slip by without using some of it, Mr. 9 Commissioner. I'll be brief. 10 Mr. Commissioner, I on behalf of 11 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto had forwarded a 12 request to your Commission Counsel in respect of the 13 discipline records and discipline policies and procedures 14 that governed the evidence that you heard this morning 15 with respect to officers Whitehead and Dyke as well as 16 the mugs and T-shirt distributions. 17 It may well be it's something that Counsel 18 amongst themselves can sort out. I simply wanted to put 19 my request on the record. I -- I did it in writing and 20 have provided a copy to your counsel. And I thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Falconer. We'll adjourn from now until tomorrow 23 morning at nine o'clock. Fine. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 25 Commissioner.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 2 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, June the 2nd at 9:00 3 a.m. 4 5 (WITNESS RETIRES) 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 4:07 p.m. 8 9 10 11 12 Certified Correct 13 14 15 16 17 ________________________ 18 Dustin Warnock 19 20 21 22 23 24 25