1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 July 14th, 2004 25


1 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Don Worme ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Okin ) (Np) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) (Np) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (Np) 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (Np) Charles Narnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (Np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (Np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (Np) Police Association & 24 K. Deane 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 6 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 7 Coroner 8 9 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 10 Matthew Horner ) (Np) 11 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 12 13 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 14 15 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 16 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 DARLENE JOHNSTON, Resumed 6 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 236 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 247 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-6 Large Map that shows the area 4 on the right hand side, Lake 5 Ontario on the left hand side, 6 Lake Huron, Lake St. Clair and 7 on the bottom, Lake Erie, and 8 marked in red on that map is 9 what is now the Thames River, 10 but it's on there, Riviere La 11 Tranche, the Chenail Ecarte's 12 marked in red, as well as 13 River Aux Sable. 87 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon resuming at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This public inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 DARLENE JOHNSTON, Resumed: 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Thank you. We're just waiting for 15 the computer to come up. 16 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 17 Q: Now, yesterday, Professor Johnston, 18 we had reached the stage of just before the 1790 purchase 19 and we have a message. 20 A: Sorry. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And the reference in your report is 25 to page 16 and you have this slide of Lake Huron in 1788


1 up on the screen. Did you want to start from there? 2 A: Yes, thank you. This slide is a 3 portion of a map that was commissioned by the British 4 Admiralty. The naval surveyor was Gother Mann, G-O-T-H- 5 E-R, his surname M-A-N-N. 6 And he did the first complete survey of 7 Lake Huron for the British. Remember the French had very 8 good maps for the region, but the British were relative 9 late comers and Mann did a -- a very detailed survey. 10 So, I'm presenting this map, partly to 11 remind people about the territory that we're concerned 12 with and to show some of the significant landmarks as 13 they were mapped by Mann in 1788. 14 This is only a partial copy of the map. 15 It goes up over the peninsula and up to Manitoulin in the 16 Straits at Makinac and Sault St. Marie. But it's the 17 first detailed British map of southern Lake Huron and in 18 fact it's this map or tracings of it that the British 19 used in their treaty process. 20 Governor Simcoe, his -- his wife actually, 21 was a map maker and she made many copies of Mann's map 22 that were used for various official records. 23 So, we start down at the entrance to Lake 24 Huron. Lake St. Clair isn't actually shown on the map 25 but the River St. Clair is and there's rapids marked


1 here. These rapids become an important marker for 2 subsequent reserves. 3 Q: And you're pointing to the bottom of 4 what is now -- the bottom of Lake Huron on the slide? 5 A: Yes. The bottom of Lake Huron on the 6 east side of the St. Clair River. It's important to 7 remember as well, this is 1788. It's after the American 8 War of Independence. It's after the Treaty which 9 resolved that conflict, the Treaty of 1783, Treaty of 10 Paris, 1783. 11 And the British had agreed that the 12 Americans, when they complied with all the other aspects 13 of the treaty would take delivery of the posts and the 14 territories west of the St. Clair River. 15 So, for today, we're going to be focusing 16 in the -- the history of the communities we're interested 17 in on the territory to the east side of Lake St. Clair, 18 east side of Detroit, east side of the -- the St. Clair 19 River and the east -- eastern shore of the main basin of 20 Lake Huron. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: So, he -- again he shows the rapids 23 here at just before the entrance and then he talks about 24 this -- there's a coast here that's quite sandy. He 25 shows a very discrete outcropping here and these little


1 X's mean that he took soundings there to see how deep it 2 was -- how deep the waters were. 3 Q: And you're pointing to just up from 4 the bottom of the lake, an area on the eastern shore 5 where there's four (4) dots out in -- shown in the water. 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 A: And we'll see this feature mapped 9 again. Mann does not give it a name but the next naval 10 surveyor does and he names it Ipperwash. 11 Then there's a creek, or a small creek 12 probably because he doesn't call it a river, opening just 13 to the north of this feature and when you go further to 14 the east -- northeast and he talks about -- he notes that 15 there are sand dunes along the shore and then he gives a 16 name to this river and this name becomes very important 17 for the treaty record. 18 This is -- he writes "R" for river "O-A-U" 19 and then "Sable", S-A-B-L-E. So, we have the River Aux 20 Sable showing up on the eastern coast of the main basin 21 of Lake Huron. 22 The next river that gets marked, well, he 23 doesn't give it a name. There are a number of -- of 24 streams going through here but we'll keep an eye on this 25 river up to the north. Again, there's a small


1 indentation in the shore where it turns to go more to the 2 northeast and there's a river there. 3 Q: And that river is on that map about 4 the middle on the -- that right-hand side of the map 5 under some writing "sandy beach"? 6 A: There's sandy beach here north of the 7 river and below the river he says "clay cliffs" and a 8 number of other things which aren't -- 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: -- intelligible. 11 Q: I'm just trying to identify it for 12 the purposes of the record. 13 A: Yes, okay. And just for people again 14 when we start looking at the purchases, these rivers 15 become vitally important. This river here and what Mann 16 has called the River Aux Sable and then the rapids. 17 Q: Do we know the name of -- did he 18 assign a name to that river -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- upper river? 21 A: It's modern name is the Maitland 22 River. It's just north of -- or in the vicinity of 23 modern day Goderich but Mann does not assign a name to 24 it. 25 The next surveyor does but he gives it an


1 Ojibwe name not a -- not an English name. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: And then just to recall that before 4 the American War of Independence there were quite a lot 5 of -- a number of villages around the -- the Detroit 6 area. Maybe I'll go back to the map we had yesterday. 7 Q: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Sorry, we don't seem to have the map. 12 13 Q: No, we'll go get it. We actually 14 didn't mark that map yesterday but we'll -- we'll go get 15 it and bring it in. It's -- you had -- we had a slide 16 but Ms. Vella will be -- will be right back. 17 A: Perhaps we could work with this map 18 for a minute then? 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: Okay. Oh, here she comes. Remember, 21 this is the map from the French regime by Chaussegros de 22 Levy from 1725. Here's the Fort Detroit. We have 23 Potawatomis, Hurons, Ottawas, Mississaugas and Sauteurs. 24 And then by the 1760s when the British 25 come for their treaty at Detroit Potawatomis sign the


1 treaty. We have people signing as -- as well as 2 Chippewas and Ottawas, people signing as Caribou, as 3 Crane, as some species of fish as well as the -- the 4 Eagles. 5 Wabanque is a -- an eagle chief. His 6 territory is over on Lake Ontario. He signed the 1764 7 treaty at Niagara. So, when we go back to the French 8 regime we see the Mississaugas and the Sauteurs. 9 By the time the treaty period begins the 10 Mississaugas are pretty much living in this territory; 11 that is in the vicinity of the Grand River, on Lake Erie 12 and all the way going east above the shores of Lake 13 Ontario. 14 Q: And then you're pointing to the north 15 side of Lake Erie on the right-hand side of that slide? 16 A: Yes. And then the -- the Sauteurs, 17 the people who the French called Sauteurs, the British 18 start calling Chippewa and so we have the -- remember 19 with Yellowheads Wampum the -- the Eagle was at the River 20 Credit and the Caribou were -- had responsibility in this 21 area and we see -- 22 Q: This area, just I'll -- 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: Georgian Bay? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: And the Saugeen Peninsular, modern 2 Bruce Peninsular and the -- the northwest portion along 3 Lake Huron? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And, in fact, Yellowhead and his 7 predecessors were called the Chiefs of Lake Huron and 8 Simcoe so they did have claims going -- that covered this 9 -- both the Georgian Bay, Lake Simcoe, Lake Huron area. 10 So, by the time we get to the first 11 purchase agreements, as I said, we have the Mississaugas 12 going this way and the Chippewas going -- the 13 Mississaugas going on the north shore, the northeast 14 shore of Lake Erie and the north shore of Lake Ontario, 15 and the Chippewas coming down south from Lake Simcoe 16 along the -- along the Lake Huron shore. 17 We still have Ottawas and Potawatomis in 18 the region as well, we'll see from the treaty, and the 19 first purchase and -- and Hurons. 20 And also recall -- I mentioned yesterday 21 that the American War of Independence, many of the 22 Haudenosaunee nations sided with the British and fought 23 with the British and their territorial rights weren't 24 protected in the Treaty of Paris. 25 And so the governor of Quebec, Haldimand,


1 he was in charge of the western region into the Great 2 Lakes; Frederick Haldimand. He wanted to do something to 3 make up for the Haudenosaunee losses and he called upon 4 the Mississaugas to surrender land so that the 5 Haudenosaunee could come from their traditional terries - 6 - territories south of Lake Ontario up onto -- into 7 British territory, what was now British territory as 8 opposed to American territory. 9 And so the Mississaugas signed a surrender 10 somewhat west of the Grand River, going towards the head 11 of Lake Ontario, Burlington Bay. And that land was then 12 -- the Mississaugas was asked to surrender it for the 13 purpose of accommodating the Haudenosaunee and they did 14 so, and then the Six (6) Nations, the Haudenosaunee moved 15 and settled at a village and they had a grant for six (6) 16 miles on either side of -- of the Grand River. 17 So, before we get to the first Chippewa 18 treaty, this is important, we've already had a surrender 19 by the Mississaugas of some of their lands, but that 20 surrender has been to make room for His Majesty's Indian 21 allies who have suffered territorial losses during the 22 American War of Independence. 23 Q: So, that they -- they -- the 24 purchase, was it a purchase or ... 25 A: It was a purchase from the


1 Mississaugas. I don't have a copy of it in my materials 2 but the boundary becomes relevant to the next treaty that 3 we look at. 4 Q: And that was in order to permit the 5 Haudenosaunee to move from the United States into British 6 territory and what is now Canada? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 A: On the -- on the Grand River, the 10 Grand River territory on the north shore of Lake Erie. 11 They are still there today, although the reserve is much 12 reduced. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Now, we saw yesterday that the 18 Algonquian speaking peoples, the Anishnaabeg had a very 19 long standing relationship with the French, and they 20 called the French their father and they were his 21 children. 22 And again, the designation of father and 23 child in Anishnaabeg culture does not speak so much to 24 dominance and control as to responsibility for a mutual 25 support and sustenance and -- and that's -- we see this


1 terminology, then, being adopted by the British when they 2 bring the Great Lakes peoples, the Algonquian speaking 3 peoples into the -- the covenant chain in 1764. 4 And you'll see in the minutes of the 5 various treaties, this language is constantly being used; 6 of father and child. And it's important to understand 7 these transactions that we're going to consider as not 8 simply real estate deals, as not simply purchases. 9 These are requests that are being made by 10 a father of his children and the children have promised 11 to be loyal and to support the King in both peace and war 12 and the King in return has promised to support the -- the 13 Indian nations and to provide that their lives will never 14 become impoverished. 15 And so it's in the context of that 16 relationship and those mutual obligations of defence and 17 support, that these requests for land are being made and 18 I'm -- can't emphasise too much the importance of 19 understanding the kinship metaphor that's being used and 20 the obligations that the Indian signatories to the 21 treaties or the purchases feel themselves under whenever 22 they're being asked by the King's representatives for 23 land. 24 Now, in this early period in the 1790's, 25 the Indian Department was still a branch of the Military


1 Department. Because the Indians were primarily seen as 2 allies they were important for -- for their military 3 support. 4 Later on, we'll see that the 5 Administration of Indian Affairs gets moved to civil 6 side, but that's -- that's -- you have to wait till about 7 1829 for that to happen. 8 So, it's important to know then, that the 9 people who were negotiating these treaties and who are 10 making these requests are actually military people who 11 fought with the Indians, both in the American War of 12 Independence and then we'll see later, in the War of 13 1812. 14 So, there's a very longstanding 15 relationship between these departmental officials. These 16 people have fought together and they -- the -- the 17 loyalty that exists between them and the trust is of the 18 -- of the highest order. 19 Now, after the six (6) nations moved north 20 there were also -- they were His Majesty's loyal -- 21 Indian loyalists but there were other loyalists in the 22 American Colonies who, likewise, wanted to move into 23 British territory. 24 And so there was an influx that people are 25 familiar with of the United Empire Loyalists and they


1 were coming across primarily in the St. Laurence region, 2 in around Prescott and Cornwall but there were also some 3 people coming up through Lake Erie and southern Lake 4 Ontario and looking for lands. 5 And so the King's Representatives and the 6 officials in the Indian Department, Alexander McKee in 7 particular, was asked to see whether the Indians on the 8 north shore of Lake Erie would sell some lands to 9 accommodate these people that were coming looking -- 10 looking for refuge within the Kings territory. 11 And the -- I have a quotation here on the 12 screen from Alexander McKee; this is from a treaty he 13 makes in 1796 but that's actually a bit out of order. I 14 want to speak first to the 1790 purchase which is the 15 first purchase affecting these lands and the people that 16 were interested in -- I'll go ahead to the map first. 17 This is similar to the map that -- that we 18 see on the -- on the stand. Now, again, we have a 19 depiction of the lands between Lake Erie and Lake Huron. 20 And we see the River Aux Sable marked and, again, that's 21 from Gother Mann's map. 22 We also see the River La Tranche which 23 goes up towards modern day London. The French called it 24 River La Tranche. The British later named it to the 25 Thames River after -- Simcoe named it Thames after the


1 river in London, England. And he named the capital 2 London after -- on the Thames. 3 And he -- he -- at one point, in the 4 beginning the Government headquarters were at Niagara but 5 Simcoe wasn't comfortable being on the coast and he 6 wanted to move inland so he -- he had a grand plan for 7 London to become the capital of -- of Upper Canada. 8 So, he was interested then in these -- in 9 these lands and having people settled here. Again, in 10 close proximity to the Americans but the more settlers, 11 then the less of a threat they felt from the -- from the 12 Americans. 13 So Alexander McKee then was sent to -- to 14 negotiate for a parcel of land and his instructions were, 15 start where the Mississauga purchase ends off. Remember, 16 the Mississauga sold land to the British for the 17 Haudenosaunee settlement. 18 This is the Grand River here and there's a 19 creek -- 20 Q: The Grand River's is to the right -- 21 A: Yes. And then you see a vertical 22 line going up ninety (90) degrees from the shore of Lake 23 Erie; that's the western limit of the Mississauga 24 purchase and it's going to become the eastern limit of 25 the first purchase of the British from the nations living


1 in this territory. 2 Q: And in this territory, it's the 3 territory in the -- bounded by Lake Huron at the -- at 4 the top and Lake Erie at the bottom; it's the western end 5 of Lake Erie? 6 A: That's right. And -- and remember 7 again by this time that the Americans are on the west 8 side of the Detroit River and the people interested in 9 being loyal to the British are on the east side. 10 And there is a Huron village down on the 11 east side of the Detroit River before you get to Lake St. 12 Clair then you come up and the first major river going in 13 on Lake St. Clair is River La Tranche. The second major 14 river going north on Lake St. Clair and then inland is 15 Chenail Ecarte; that's French again for the divided 16 channel. 17 Shennail, S-H-E-N-N-A-I-L, and Ecarte, E- 18 C-A-R-T-E. So, these are the rivers that become most 19 important in understanding the territory and the 20 purchases. We have the Thames River, Chenail Ecarte and 21 the River Aux Sable. 22 And what the King decided to ask for was 23 the lands going west from the boundary of the Mississauga 24 purchase, down along the lakeshore of Lake Erie, up the 25 west coast of the Detroit River, along the west coast of


1 Lake St. Clair, up to the mouth of the Chenail Ecarte. 2 Now, those rivers at the north -- sorry, 3 those islands at the mouth of the Chenail Ecarte and the 4 -- the -- the main is Walpole Island, which is today 5 continues to be a reserve for Anishnaabeg people in -- in 6 Lake St. Clair. 7 And the -- the map gets to the entrance of 8 the Chenail Ecarte then it runs on a course, almost due 9 east, until it hits the Riviere La Tranche or the Thames 10 River, and then it follows the Thames River back to its 11 intersection with the -- the western limit of the 12 Mississauga purchase. 13 Q: And that -- that line -- the vertical 14 line, that's the western limit of the Mississauga 15 purchase that runs north on this -- to the top of the 16 page, starting at the -- by the Riviere Chaudiere, I 17 think it is, marked on your -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- slide? 20 A: It also has a name of a creek and 21 that -- that term will show up in one (1) of the later 22 documents. So, this is a very substantial area of land. 23 The treaty itself does not indicate the acreage. Most 24 subsequent treaties do indicate the acreage but we -- 25 there -- there's no indication in the treaty of how much


1 land the people are being asked for. 2 It's actually probably -- it's 3 considerably smaller than the -- the Mississauga 4 purchase, but it -- it takes in lands basically south of 5 the River Thames. 6 So, the -- the people are being asked to 7 give up their lands south of Chenail Ecarte and the River 8 Thames down to Lake Huron. Remember, this is a request 9 that's coming from the King, they joined their hands in 10 friendship with the King in 1763. 11 And then this -- they fought with him in 12 the War of American Independence and now they're being 13 asked to make room for his Majesty's other children, his 14 -- his settlers from -- from the American colonies. 15 And so, they -- the chiefs of the Four (4) 16 Nations, it's important to remember at this time there 17 are still, as far as the British are concerned, Four (4) 18 Nations in this territory. There are Hurons, 19 Potawatomis, Ottawas and Chippewas. 20 Remember those are designations that the 21 British use. They don't coincide with totemic identity. 22 We'll see something -- evidence of totemic identity in a 23 moment. 24 But on the 19th of May, 1790, William 25 McKee met in Council at Detroit. They still had control


1 of the post of Detroit because the treaty terms hadn't 2 been finalized yet. 3 And when the departmental officials met 4 with the -- the various chiefs of the Four (4) Nations, 5 they're -- they -- their principle chief rose, Egouch-e- 6 ouay who was a chief of the Ottawa, rose to -- to make a 7 speech in response to the request that they heard for 8 land. 9 And it's important when considering the 10 treaties not simply to rely on the typed treaty document, 11 because that's -- that's a partial version of the 12 history. The maps that accompany the treaty are also 13 important and the speeches that were made during the 14 treaty meeting are also an important part of 15 understanding the transaction. 16 Now, I have to apologize, because I have a 17 speech which didn't make it into my binder, but I'd like 18 to read at least part of it. I think it's quite 19 demonstrative of the ethic at work. 20 Q: Sure. What we could do is, 21 Commissioner, with your permission after -- at the break 22 or at lunch we'll get copies made for everyone and it 23 could be simply added to Exhibit 2 of this document -- to 24 Exhibit 2. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That makes


1 sense. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay, the document is dated 3 May 19th, 1790 and it's from Record Group 10, in the 4 Department of Indian Affairs, Volume 1832. And the page 5 reference is two six nine (269) to two nine five (295). 6 It's a very long document going with all the meetings, 7 all the speeches. 8 And it's on Microfilm Reel C-1223. I have 9 a typed transcript which we will provide. 10 It -- the part that I wanted to read then 11 was that Agushuwee is the chief of the Ottawas in the 12 name of the 13 lakes confederacy. This is a term that gets used to 14 refer to the Four (4) Nations, the Chippewas, Ottawas, 15 Potawatomis and the Hurons, and he's speaking on behalf 16 of all of them. He's not just speaking for the Ottawas 17 and he's not just speaking for people who belong to his 18 particular totemic group. 19 He says: 20 "Father, we are now within the paternal 21 house," 22 That is the -- the British fort. 23 "Where everyone is free to speak his 24 mind. Therefore, father, I request you 25 to hear me. I request the same of our


1 fathers, the officers, our brethren and 2 merchants. 3 And all of you, my brothers, of my own 4 colour, Indians of different Nations." 5 So, he's speaking again in this -- this 6 metaphoric -- metaphorical kinship 7 relationship; the father, and children 8 and the brothers. It's the idea that 9 they're one (1) big family, because 10 they've entered into this political 11 alliance. 12 He says: 13 "Father, the Great King had written to 14 them to know if we would cede him a piece of 15 land." 16 Sorry, I skipped a part: 17 "Father, you have told us that you have 18 received letters from our father, the 19 General, and our father, Sir John 20 Johnson." 21 Sir John Johnson is the son of Sir William 22 Johnson, and he was the head of the Indian Department in 23 Quebec, and he lived at Montreal. He travelled a few 24 times to this area, but he wasn't -- he was there for the 25 Mississauga purchase, but not -- not for this purchase.


1 "I bring to you what our father, the 2 Great King, had written to them, to 3 know if we would cede him a piece of 4 land extending from the other side of 5 the river, to the line of that ceded by 6 the Mississagues. 7 Father, is there a man amongst us who 8 will refuse what is asked by a father 9 so good and so generous that he had 10 never yet refused us anything. What 11 Nation? None, father. We have agreed 12 to grant all you ask, according to the 13 limits settled between us and you, and 14 which we are well acquainted with. We 15 grant it to you all, father, in the 16 presence of our father's, the officers, 17 and our brothers, the merchants." 18 And so the obligation to respond to the 19 King's generosity and care, is to grant his request. In 20 the Anishnaabeg culture, when people are asked something, 21 it's actually very, very hard to refuse. And people 22 often avoid putting their request directly, because it is 23 so hard to refuse. 24 But the King made a very direct request, 25 it was communicated through his officers, and the Indian


1 Nations felt obliged to accept it, primarily, I think, 2 because they wanted -- their father had not yet refused 3 them anything, once they made their alliance with the 4 British. 5 And so they had no basis for refusing his 6 request and no reason to fear that by granting his 7 request it would lead to their -- any hardship on their 8 part, because remember the Twenty-Four (24) Nations Belt 9 had promised that they would never become impoverished, 10 that they would always have their sustenance provided. 11 So, then this is the first purchase from 12 the people in the vicinity of Lake Huron, and -- and Lake 13 Erie. Again, these are the boundaries of the purchase. 14 And it means that the land along the north shore of Lake 15 Erie now, has been entirely surrendered, because the 16 Mississagues lands to the east of the Chippewa lands have 17 been surrendered. That's -- I'm sorry, not surrendered, 18 purchased. 19 They're not styled as surrenders at this 20 point; they've been purchased by the King's 21 representatives. And the area of the Grand River has 22 been reserved for His Majesty's Indian allies, the 23 Haudenosaunee and there's an expectation that American 24 United Empire Loyalists will also come into this area. 25 There's also an expectation that it


1 wouldn't just be settlers, non-aboriginal settlers that 2 would come to this area, but also other Anishnaabeg 3 allies of the British, who were finding their lives more 4 difficult on the American side of the border. 5 Q: So, that the area would be used by 6 both aboriginal and non-aboriginal people? 7 A: That's right. And that again becomes 8 clear when they speak of the King and his officers as 9 their father, and the merchants as their brothers. So, 10 they're incorporating not just the officials, but the 11 people who are coming into their territory, into this 12 kinship network. 13 Now, the written text of the Treaty has 14 been published, as most Treaties have, in a series 15 published by the Queen's Printer at the turn of the 16 century, called 'Indian Treaties and Surrenders'. Not 17 every Treaty that we're going to consider today is 18 actually published in this book. 19 And in my experience, a lot of people rely 20 on this book, as comprehensive in terms of dealing with 21 the Treaties. And from my perspective, there's one (1) 22 huge flaw with this publication, because what it does, is 23 it takes the Treaties which were all written in 24 manuscript, in handwriting, and they had to be signed -- 25 for your formal purchases, that according to British


1 standards, you signed and sealed and delivered, and when 2 the Treaties were collected by the Department of Indian 3 Affairs and published as a series, they get published in 4 typeset; they're no longer in handwriting. And that's 5 probably to make them easy to read, because the 6 manuscript sometimes can be quite difficult. 7 But what also happened in the typesetting 8 process, is that they would type the names of the 9 signatories, and in this case this -- this Treaty, the 10 1790 purchase, becomes known as Treaty Number 2. And 11 it's in your materials and under the date 1790. Let's 12 see what tab it is, (4000444)? 13 Q: That would be it. 14 A: Okay. And so you can -- you can see 15 it typeset, and if you turn to the page that has the 16 signatories, we see that there's Potawatomis, that 17 there's Hurons, that there's Chippewas and that there's 18 Ottawas; the Chiefs sign under different tribal or 19 national designations. They speak of these -- these 20 ordinate -- these -- that this level of organization as a 21 Nation. 22 So, we have a Chippewa Chief Wasson, who 23 according to this typeset version has signed the Treaty. 24 We know Wasson signed the Detroit Treaty as a Crane, but 25 there are other Chippewas who signed here that didn't


1 sign the Detroit Treaty. 2 And if you rely on the printed version, 3 the published version of the Treaty, opposite the Chief's 4 names, it says in brackets, dodaim, dodaim, dodaim. It 5 doesn't say what dodaim, and no effort is made to 6 reproduce the dodaims. 7 And so when people rely on the typed 8 version of the Treaties, they lose any indication of 9 totemic identity, and as I've been making efforts to 10 explain, in my opinion, totemic identity in fact is the 11 most stable ethnic identifier and indicator of 12 territorial rights and governance rights. 13 And so to the extent that people rely on 14 the typeset treaties, a whole aspect of aboriginal 15 history and identity and culture is lost. 16 Q: And then the -- and in addition, I 17 haven't seen the text, but I presume the speeches are not 18 published as well? 19 A: That's right, the speeches are not 20 published. The American Treaty collection consists in 21 two (2) parts. And the one (1) is the proceedings of 22 Treaties which contains all the speeches, and then 23 there's actually the Treaty documents. But this is the 24 official Canadian collection done by the Queen's Printer; 25 there are no speeches and no marks.


1 The only time marks show up, is when 2 they've reproduced a map, and because they're producing a 3 map it's graphic, and then if they happen to sign the 4 map, sometimes the signatures appear on the map. But the 5 signatures are never reproduced and the totemic identity 6 is lost, unless it happens to be referred to in the text 7 of the Treaty. 8 Sometimes they'll say -- one (1) of 9 Yellowhead's Treaties they say, he's the Chief of the 10 Reindeer tribe of the Chippewa Nation. So, that helps, 11 but it's not -- then you only get the Chief's names, you 12 don't get the other signatories or their totemic 13 identity. 14 To find the manuscript originals of the 15 Treaties, you have to go to Record Group 10, Volume 1845, 16 I think. I'll double check that in a -- in a minute. 17 Q: And the -- the original manuscript 18 with the -- with the totemic identities are -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- are, I think on there? 21 A: I have a slide -- I have a slide of it 22 here. 23 Q: Ah, great. 24 A: Okay. So, this is a slide that was 25 prepared from the original manuscript document of the


1 1790 purchase. The actual text of the document's quite 2 hard to read in terms of the handwriting, so I haven't 3 reproduced it, but I have reproduced the totemic images; 4 the signature section. 5 And you'll see there are seals opposite 6 the signatures; there's red wafers in wax. And this is 7 to show that this document is actually blending 8 traditions; it's part of the British Land Law of Property 9 tradition, in terms of documents having to be signed, 10 sealed and delivered. But the signatures reveal the 11 totemic identity, the self representation of the leaders 12 of these communities. 13 Q: And in -- in terms of the document 14 collection that you provided us, I believe this is for 15 those who may be looking for, is Document 4000 -- 400- 16 1878. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, 58. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Fifty-eight (58). 21 A: Okay, sorry. 22 Q: Certainly. 23 A: Yeah. Now, the -- this has been 24 divided up into panels to make it fit on the screen, but 25 it is presented as it appears on the manuscript original


1 in the sense of the location of the various signatures. 2 And so we see a couple of levels of 3 organization going on here. We have, first of all, a 4 tribal identity. It's not visible there but that speaks 5 to Potawatomis. These signatures in the first panel, 6 the -- 7 Q: The first panel on the left-hand side 8 of the monitor? 9 A: On the left-hand side, the top of the 10 first panel. 11 Q: The top is -- is there Potawatomis -- 12 13 A: It's washed out but there's a 14 reference to Potawatomis and then the signatures that 15 follow are Potawatomi totemic marks and the names of the 16 chiefs. 17 And then below the Potawatomi signatures 18 we have the Hurons. 19 Q: And you can see the Hurons, it's 20 faint but it's in the middle of the slide in the first 21 column? 22 A: That's right. Now for the 23 Potawatomis we have a thunder bird. We have a dodaim 24 which people call a forked stick and I haven't -- I'm not 25 aware of anyone that's given it a satisfactory


1 explanation of -- of that -- of that symbol. 2 Q: And that's the second symbol down? 3 A: Yes. And the -- then there's a -- 4 you'll see some of the problems with identifying the 5 marks. There are four (4) appendages there. This could 6 be indicative of a four-legged mammal or also of a fish 7 with a particular fin placement. 8 And I'm -- I'm much better with the 9 Chippewa and Ottawa marks. I won't -- I won't give a 10 definitive opinion of -- of these marks coming down 11 although I think this is a catfish; the last image. 12 Q: This is, one (1), two (2), three (3), 13 four (4), five (5), the sixth one down? 14 A: Yes. The person -- the chief's name 15 shows up as Key-way-te-nan. And then we get into the 16 Huron marks and this is one of the last documents which 17 shows the marks of the Huron chiefs. 18 And one of the things that it demonstrates 19 in my understanding of authority and its relationship to 20 totemic identity is that the placement of the signatures 21 are very important. 22 Actually the placement of the marks. They 23 speak to authority and who's considered, sort of, the 24 first family or the first tribe in a community. So we 25 have the first Huron signatures for Sas-ta-rit-sie which


1 is a inherited chiefly name among the Huron people and we 2 have the image of a deer with antlers. 3 And then Sas-ta-rit-sie has two (2) other 4 deer chiefs who sign with him but you'll notice their 5 marks are under his and instead of having the full deer 6 head they just have their antlers. 7 And then there is a chief who signs as a 8 wolf? 9 Q: That's the fourth one down? 10 A: Yes. And, again, there are wolf 11 chiefs that sign below him but just their heads show up 12 and not their full body. So, again, it's -- it speaks to 13 authority and rank among the normal signatories. 14 And there are some turtles below the wolf 15 and this is a bear's foot and a bear's head, I think. 16 Followed by a turtle and the last one, I think, is a 17 porcupine. 18 Q: And the bear's -- the bear marks are 19 the fourth -- fourth up -- fourth and fifth up from the 20 bottom? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: And then I think followed by a bear's 24 head. And they say, in -- in some nations, the various 25 body parts, in fact, become dodaims as opposed to the


1 whole -- the whole -- some people -- some people would 2 say they belong to the Bear Paw family as opposed to 3 saying that they're bear people. 4 So those are the Hurons and the 5 Potawatomis. The next column over is the people that the 6 British designate as Chippewas. And recall that the 7 French did not call anybody Chippewas. We have to think 8 back to the terms they used such as Sauteurs and, again, 9 I think the placement of the signatures, especially the 10 top signature is important. 11 Wasson signs first for the Chippewas and 12 Wasson makes these track marks. They're crane tracks. 13 He's a Crane chief. Remember in 1764 he signed with a 14 full crane and here he's signing with a much more 15 abbreviated mark which is still diagnostic though. A 16 crane track is different from other kinds of -- of bird 17 marks and that's readily identifiable by people who know. 18 19 Q: And so both those marks are crane 20 tracks? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: He's not standing on one leg. He's 24 standing on both feet. Sometimes you see one (1) leg -- 25 one (1) track not two (2). And then below Wasson is Ti-


1 e-cami-go-se and I'm quite confident this is a catfish. 2 The catfish has the barbs coming out of 3 the front of their head so they're -- they're the most 4 easily, from my point of view, the most easily -- most 5 easily identifiable of the fish clans. 6 Below Ti-e-cami-go-see is Essebance and 7 that means small racoon, but he's not a racoon of course. 8 This is a mark for a caribou. Now, you'll remember when 9 Attawakie signed, there he is there, when Attawakie 10 signed the Treaty of Detroit in 1764 he drew a full 11 caribou, but in a number of the records that I've 12 examined caribou again instead of drawn -- the caribou 13 people don't always draw the full animal. They'll draw a 14 distinctive mark. 15 And the caribous, actually, got very 16 distinctive hoof mark. They're the largest -- they have 17 the largest hooves of -- of the species in the ungulate 18 family, such as the deer, the moose, and the elk; the 19 caribou. 20 Caribou have the largest feet and they 21 also have the most pronounced dew claws which extend 22 outward from their ankle and when they walk in mud or 23 snow the dew claws leave an impression. 24 And so what we see here is actually the 25 hoof marks coming up and then the do dew claws and then


1 the leg. So what he's drawn is a -- a caribou haunch as 2 it were down to the do dew claws. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: So that's very, very diagnostic for a 5 -- a caribou mark. 6 In the old days, before I started doing 7 this work, people said that that was an antler; the 8 antler mark. But that's an antler. Sometimes the people 9 aren't given enough credit for being artists. They say - 10 - I kept saying well if they wanted to draw an antler, 11 they would have drawn an antler. That's not an antler. 12 It took me a while to figure out that it 13 was a leg. We actually -- in my territory there's a 14 document signed by one of our chiefs Wabadick who's a 15 White Reindeer, and when he signed it, his mark the 16 merchant, at Goderich Road; this is his mark, signifying 17 a deer's leg. And that's when the light came on and 18 realized that actually that's -- this is the claw, this 19 is the hoof, these are the do dew claws and that's the 20 leg of the caribou. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: Okay. Then we have Ouit-a-nis-sa and 23 again, a crane mark. Not -- not the double tracks but 24 it's -- he's -- he's a Crane chief as well and then Nan- 25 gie who's a Beaver. And the beaver are typically drawn


1 this way, that the most diagnostic indicator for a beaver 2 is the broad tail. 3 Q: And the beaver is the fifth down in 4 the middle panel? 5 A: Yes. And then Cha-bou-quai signs -- 6 this is a -- what I consider to be a -- a prototypical or 7 a very typical eagle. The eagle is a bird of prey and 8 the talons are very pronounced, and also the beak. 9 And I would contrast the eagle here with 10 this bird which has its wings spread, and that I would 11 suggest, is typical for a thunderbird. 12 Q: And they -- the latter symbol is the 13 top symbol in the first panel? 14 A: First Potawatomi chief, yes. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 A: Okay. And then Mesh-qui-ga-boui, the 17 last signatory -- sorry, there's another eagle, Wa-ban- 18 di-gais who signs below the first eagle and again you get 19 the diagnostic talons and the hooked beak. 20 And then with Mesh-qui-ga-boui another -- 21 another catfish. 22 So, the people that the British are 23 calling Chippewas, in fact, are Cranes, Catfish, Caribou, 24 Beaver and Eagle. And we have evidence from the French 25 regime that there were Cranes in this territory, that


1 there were Beavers in this territory and by the -- 2 according to Yellowheads Wampum that there were Caribou 3 in this territory. 4 And this -- a number of the people who 5 signed the Detroit treaty, in particular Wasson and 6 Attawakie are signing this first purchase in 1790 which I 7 would suggest shows very considerable continuity in the 8 region by these groups. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: The last panel on the right is the 11 Ottawa panel. Again these are people that the British 12 called Ottawas and they would speak of them as being in 13 the Ottawa village and the first among the Ottawas is 14 Agushuwee and he's the chief who answered the King's 15 request, saying what child could refuse the request of a 16 father so generous. 17 Q: That was the speech that you just 18 read us a few minutes ago? 19 A: Yes. So, Agushuwee was at the 20 meeting, he made the speech and then there was this 21 document, was signed by the people with an interest in 22 the land in question. 23 And it's a bit blurred here, but we know 24 from other documents, Agushuwee is a Bear. The bear's 25 usually shown as standing. You can sometimes tell by the


1 shape of the rump but also they typically have their feet 2 pointing forward when they're standing, is -- can help to 3 distinguish a bear from other four (4) leggeds. 4 Wa-wish-kui is another bird. Again the 5 talons suggest a -- a bird of prey. Ni-a-ne-go is this 6 symbol which people will call a forked stick and again, 7 I'm -- I'm not sure what to relate that -- that image to. 8 Below him Ki-wich-e-ouan is another bird 9 of prey, again, very, very, pronounced talons and the 10 pronounced beak. 11 Then we get to Attawakie, and you remember 12 Attawakie drew the full caribou on the 1764 Treaty at 13 Detroit. And here he's just drawn his mark, these are 14 the hoofs coming forward, and -- and the leg; it's a bit 15 obscured by an ink stain. 16 Then we have O-na-gan, which is another 17 Bear, and this is much more -- this one's easier to see 18 than Agushuwee's bear; you see the feet coming forward, 19 those are the front leg, then the back leg. And then En- 20 dah-in. 21 Q: It's the second from the bottom? 22 A: Yes, and this is sometimes a problem 23 in -- in identifying these marks, I mean, we have a sort 24 of a round body, and a number of appendages, but it's 25 hard to tell whether it might be animal or a fish.


1 So, in -- in the work that I do, I try to 2 collect as many signatures of the same -- persons of the 3 same name, because sometimes they'll do a better or worse 4 job of drawing, and then can be more confident about 5 their identification. 6 And then Maug-gic-a-way: I would be 7 fairly confident that this is a Beaver; it's a large oval 8 body, four (4) appendages, a head and a pronounced wide 9 tail. 10 So, again among the Ottawas we have 11 Caribou, Eagles, Beavers, much as we have the Chippewas. 12 And so, I'm going to suggest that this designation of 13 Ottawa or Chippewa, is not the primary identity. It's 14 not what's used by the Chiefs in order to identify 15 themselves. 16 They would identify -- Wasson would 17 identify as a -- as a Crane Chief of the Chippewa Nation. 18 So, I think the totemic identity is corresponding to 19 tribal and then designation of Chippewa or Ottawa as 20 corresponding to some added level of -- of political 21 identity, or confederacy. 22 And then the formations together, we saw 23 Agushuwee refer to them as the Lake's Confederacy. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So, on this next slide I've just


1 pulled out from the Treaty document, the signature of 2 Wasson, Essbance, Nan-gie to show that. And this first 3 purchase of lands by the British between Lakes Erie and 4 Huron, we have Crane Chiefs, Caribou Chiefs and Beaver 5 Chiefs. And the fact that their signatures appear or 6 that their marks appear on this purchase is -- is 7 evidence of their claims to an interest in the land, the 8 territory, that the British have a very strong tradition 9 of not being able to sell what you don't own; Nemo dat 10 qua non habet. And they wanted to make sure that they 11 had all the signatories accounted for; all the Nations 12 covered in this area that they were purchasing. 13 So, again, this is Treaty Number 2. It -- 14 it involves four (4) Nations, it involves several -- 15 several tribes that are organized and within those 16 Nations, several totemic groups. And I've highlighted 17 the Crane and the Caribou and the Beaver, because when we 18 get closer to this territory we're interested in around 19 the Aux Sable River, we'll be able to make some 20 connections between these Nations, these particular 21 totemic groups, and the ancestors of the present day 22 communities, that we're concerned with. 23 So, Treaty Number 2 again was a fairly 24 substantial area of land. It was done in the context of 25 kinship obligations, there was an understanding that the


1 people who moved into the territory would be the brothers 2 of the Great Father's Indian children. They were given a 3 purchase price for the lands that were purchased; it was 4 twelve hundred (1200) pounds. 5 Q: Twelve hundred (1200) pounds? 6 A: Twelve hundred (1200) pounds. And at 7 the time, according to Ms. Holmes, who knows more about 8 the currency exchange rates, the -- the pound was worth 9 about four dollars ($4). So, forty-eight hundred dollars 10 ($4800). 11 Now, they didn't receive the money as 12 money, they received it as wares and merchandise, 13 according to the terms of the Treaty. And in fact if you 14 look to the Treaty document I've provided, this is the 15 British for you, they don't include the speeches, but 16 they include the list -- we -- we have so many documents 17 in Record Group 10 that are receipts of -- it's hard to 18 find out people's names, they didn't record them, but 19 they give us the price of every pipe and blanket and 20 barrel of rum that's included. 21 So, we have of the twelve hundred (1200) 22 pounds, seven hundred and twenty-two (722) pounds, eight 23 shillings (8) and something worth of cloth and then 24 there's -- the -- the total goods. 25 The things that are given as wares or


1 presents include blankets, different colours of cloth, 2 ribbon, vermillion, silk, hats, tin kettles, knives, 3 guns, rifles, powders, ball, shot, flints, looking 4 glasses, fliers, scissors, penknives, fish hooks, steel, 5 fire steels, pipes and thirty-nine (39) gallons of rum, a 6 bull, four hundred (400) pounds of tobacco and a series 7 of other pipes and knives. 8 And so, that's how the -- the British paid 9 for this land that they purchased from their Indian 10 allies at Detroit in 1790. And again -- 11 Q: That -- pardon? 12 A: -- we see that behind me now the map 13 of -- of the purchase. And one thing I'd like to point 14 out is in the land that they were selling there was an 15 established Huron village and a number of the people were 16 still living on this side of the peninsular but they were 17 giving up their claims to this -- to the eastern side of 18 the north shore of Lake Huron -- of Lake Erie, but there 19 was a Huron settlement that had been there since the 20 early French period -- or later French period and so 21 Agushuwee and the other chiefs say that they won't forget 22 about their Huron brothers and that they will reserve 23 this parcel of land. 24 So, this becomes known as the Huron 25 Reserve.


1 Q: And that -- this is shown as a dotted 2 line to the east of the Detroit River. It's a 3 rectangular area on the east side just north of the 4 Straits of Erie? 5 A: That's right. So, the land south of 6 Chenail Ecarte, the River Thames, is surrounded with the 7 exception actually of two (2) very small reserves where 8 there were Huron settlements. 9 Q: And there's another square that's not 10 dotted just above the dotted square that's also a Huron 11 Reserve? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And even though you said that this 14 was a surrender, it was, in fact, a purchase? 15 A: Yes, I'm sorry. I lapse into using 16 the term surrender because that's what gets used in my 17 territory but they stopped calling them purchases. But - 18 - but in the southern region in this early period they're 19 styled as purchases. 20 Q: Okay. And then the British came back 21 in 1796? 22 A: Yes. They keep coming back. This is 23 one of the few purchases where the map was reproduced and 24 because the map had been signed by the signatories, the 25 totemic identifies actually show up in the book.


1 But apart from the maps with -- that have 2 been signed with marks, there's no evidence of totemic 3 identity in the published versions of the Indian Treaties 4 of Canada. 5 Now -- 6 Q: This -- this particular map shows the 7 area just north of Lake St. Clair on the east side of the 8 St. Clair river -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- below -- where's Chenail Ecarte on 11 this? 12 A: Chenail Ecarte is here. It's drawn a 13 little bit differently than the first time but this is 14 the line of the 1790 purchase. So they're looking for a 15 block of land above the northern limit of the 1790 16 purchase. 17 Q: And they describe it there "east line 18 of purchase 1790"? 19 A: Yes. Now, again, Alexander McKee, 20 this is his signature down here, he's the deputy 21 superintendent of -- of Indian affairs. He's been 22 directed by Colonial officials to seek an additional 23 purchase. This is six (6) years after the first 24 purchase. 25 And so, he comes back and it's clear from


1 the record he calls people together at least three (3) 2 different times to try to get this purchase arranged and 3 he's finally successful in September of 1796. 4 Q: And you refer to his -- one of his 5 speeches on page 17 of your report? 6 A: Yes. And it -- one document I'd like 7 to refer to before we get there though -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- is document -- my document number 10 is (4000045) -- (4000445), sorry. I'm not very good with 11 numbers. 12 McKee had been asked in 1795 to try to 13 secure the purchase, and as I said, he made a number of 14 trips to the Chenail Ecarte to speak to the Chiefs, and 15 ask them about this agreement. 16 And so he reports to his -- the officials 17 that -- in October 24th, this document's dated October 18 24th, 1795. Got it? Okay. 19 Q: And you're referring -- it's an 20 extract of a letter of Alexander McKee, to Joseph Chew, 21 Secretary to the Indian Department, and it's dated at 22 Detroit, October 24th, 1795? 23 A: Yes, he's at -- at Detroit. Now, 24 McKee says: 25 "I am just returned from the River


1 Thames, [so they're calling it Thames 2 River now instead of Riviere a la 3 Tranche, and the Chenail Ecarte, where 4 I have had council with the Chiefs of 5 the Chippewas, and entered into a 6 provisional agreement with them, for 7 the purchase of twelve (12) miles 8 square at Chenail Ecarte, pursuant to 9 His Excellency Lord Dorchester's 10 directions, intended by His Lordship's 11 Benevolence for the future residence of 12 such of the western nations of Indians 13 as have been driven from their country 14 by the Army of the United States. 15 Their numbers cannot be ascertained 16 at present, with any degree of 17 exactness, but I have reason to believe 18 that the greatest part of those who 19 have been so long at Swan Creek, and 20 also the Ottawas of the River Raisin 21 both areas to the south west of Lake 22 Erie] will go to these lands, and they 23 amount to between two (2) and three 24 thousand (3,000)." 25 So they're expecting an influx of


1 thousands of Indian allies: 2 "The Chippewas are the only proprietors 3 of these lands." 4 So here we have McKee saying, we need more 5 land, the Chippewas are the only people that we have to 6 talk to. They don't have to talk to the Mississagues or 7 the Hurons, or even the -- the Ottawas at this point. He 8 says: 9 "The Chippewas are the only proprietors 10 of these lands, and I am happy to state 11 that they most readily consented to a 12 sale thereof, and cheerfully embraced 13 my proposal. Some of the Chiefs of the 14 Ottawas accompanied me to view the spot 15 which their father's goodness have 16 suggested as a convenient situation for 17 them to sit down upon and are extremely 18 happy in having seen a country every 19 way proper and calculated, as well for 20 hunting as corn fields and villages. 21 And they express an earnest desire to 22 be permitted to plan hereon as soon as 23 the season will allow them in the 24 spring." 25 So, he's taken the people they're


1 intending on living, or at least their leaders. They 2 like the location, the twelve (12) miles square, it's 3 good for farming and for hunting, because they practised 4 quite a mixed economy. 5 So, this is in October 1795, and then 6 McKee goes back in August of 1796 to finalize the 7 agreement. And this is a pattern that we see over and 8 over again in this region. It's not so common further 9 north, which is that the Indian officials arrange a 10 provisional agreement, or a preliminary agreement. It's 11 usually called a provisional agreement, but they get 12 approval for that from the Indian Department and then 13 they go back and get the final agreement. 14 So, the Provisional Agreement's 1795 and 15 then the final agreement, which is published in the 16 Indian Treaties and other records, is in 1796. 17 And again, we have the Department of 18 Indian affairs maintained records of the speeches that 19 were made at the -- at the meeting. And I've excerpted a 20 part of McKee's speech. 21 Q: It's at page 17, at the bottom of page 22 17 of your report? 23 A: The document itself is in my 24 materials, and with permission, I'll read more than the 25 actual portion that I've excerpted.


1 Q: And what is the number, Professor 2 Johnson, in your materials? 3 A: The -- it's the manuscript version at 4 number 400446. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: At a council at Chenail Ecarte, this 10 3rd -- the 30th of August, 1796. Do you have it? 11 Q: That's fine, you can go ahead. 12 A: Okay. Okay. All right, so you have 13 Colonel McKee, again, he's -- he's a very seasoned 14 officer with the Indian Department, he's fought with most 15 of these people in the American War of Independence, he's 16 already arranged the -- the first purchase, and remember, 17 the first purchase was to accommodate loyalists, both 18 Native and non-Native. 19 And then he comes back and -- and makes a 20 speech on August 30th, 1796: 21 "Children, it is with the greatest 22 satisfaction that I now see so many of 23 the Chippewas at this place. This is 24 the third time I have been here in 25 hopes of meeting those now present, but


1 I imagine their business called them 2 elsewhere. 3 Children, the -- the change that has 4 taken place in this country and which 5 has been long in agitation induced your 6 Great Father to direct that you should 7 be informed thereof and of his views 8 for the comfort and protection of his 9 Indian children whom he will never 10 abandon, so long as they behave like 11 good and obedient children. 12 Children, the change I allude to is the 13 delivery of the posts to the United 14 States. These people have at last 15 fulfilled the treaty of 1783 and the 16 justice of the King towards all the 17 world would not suffer him to withhold 18 the rights of another, after a 19 compliance with the terms stipulated in 20 that treaty. 21 But he has, notwithstanding, taken the 22 greatest care of the rights and 23 independence of all the Indian nations 24 who by the last Treaty with America, 25 are to be perfectly free and unmolested


1 in their trade and hunting grounds and 2 to pass and re-pass freely and 3 undisturbed to trade with whom they 4 please." 5 Now, this is a reference to the Jay 6 Treaty, between the United States and -- and England that 7 allowed for controls on the border, but they were not 8 supposed to apply to the Indians who were free -- 9 considered free and independent of these restrictions. 10 "A great many Indians who have always 11 lived in harmony and happiness with the 12 King and his representatives and who 13 yet wish to remain within his territory 14 and under his protection are now 15 present. 16 The King, who on all occasions is 17 desirous of marking his regard and 18 friendship for all his Indian children, 19 but in a particular manner for those in 20 trouble or distress has given 21 directions to place all such as are 22 desirous of living within his 23 territory, on part of the lands 24 purchased in 1790, at which purchase 25 you were all present and received the


1 payment." 2 So, he's referring to this anticipated 3 influx of Indians from the American territories and he 4 says, well, we've already bought some land, I know, from 5 you for that purpose but he goes on to say: 6 "We are now sitting upon part of the 7 lands purchased at that time and it has 8 been thought the most convenient place 9 for all such Indians as are desirous of 10 planting and living within the King's 11 dominions. 12 But, children, a little wood and a 13 little more room is necessary for their 14 general comfort and I have been 15 directed by the Commander in Chief to 16 purchase from you a small piece on the 17 north side of this river for that 18 purpose. 19 Four (4) square leagues," 20 Which is twelve (12) square miles, 21 "Is all that is required and for which 22 you will receive the payment in such 23 articles as are best suited to your 24 wants and necessities. 25 Children, when I received directions


1 last fall from the Commander in Chief 2 to make a provisional agreement for the 3 purchase of this small spot, I 4 collected all the chiefs of the 5 Chippewas that were then near and 6 entered into a conditional agreement 7 with them on behalf of their nation. 8 Some of these chiefs are now present 9 and are capable of informing you what 10 passed on that occasion." 11 And this is the part that I've excerpted 12 in my report coming: 13 "Children, you are not to consider this 14 small ..." 15 No, sorry, I've got two (2) paragraphs to 16 go before the part I excerpted, 17 "Children, you are not to consider this 18 small strip of land as bought for the 19 King's immediate use but for the use of 20 his Indian children and you, 21 yourselves, will be as welcome as any, 22 as others to come and live thereon. 23 Children, the situation of this place 24 is particularly favourable for a 25 general council fire for all nations.


1 The communication between the six (6) 2 nations, the nations of Canada and all 3 the nations and tribes to the northward 4 and the Mississippi is extremely easy 5 and there will be little difficulty of 6 their assembling here at all times when 7 the business or interests of the 8 Indians may require it." 9 So, again, we're seeing the recognition of 10 this strategic location of the St. Clair where people can 11 access it from any -- any direction through the Great 12 Lakes and the Mississippi. 13 "I cannot too often," 14 This is the part I've excerpted: 15 "Children, I cannot too often imprint 16 on your minds the King's paternal 17 regard for all of you and this small 18 piece of land which he is now prepared 19 to purchase is not for settling of his 20 own people, but for the comfort and 21 satisfaction of yourselves and all his 22 Indian children. 23 His own people, who have fought and 24 bled with you, he has placed on the 25 Riviere a la Tranche and on the Lake


1 below." 2 Then he goes on to talk about the -- the 3 presents that he's brought along to -- to conclude the 4 purchase. 5 And so, the purport of the speech, again, 6 reiterates the kinship relationship between the King and 7 his Indian children, and their obligation as family to 8 respond to each other's requests and each other's needs. 9 And although it's styled as a purchase, 10 this treaty's important -- the speech is important 11 because it makes it clear that the land is not going to 12 be sold out from under them, that they're allowed to 13 continue -- the Chippewas are allowed to continue to use 14 it as are the Ottawas and other people who are coming 15 from the American Territory. 16 And so it's styled as a purchase and 17 actually if you read the written text of the Treaty it 18 says that the signatories are giving up all right and 19 title in their land but that's not what they were told in 20 the speech. They understood that this land was being 21 made as a special reserve. They were welcoming other 22 Indians to settle there but they weren't giving up their 23 own rights in that particular parcel. 24 Q: So, that it could be used by the 25 Chippewa as well as the other -- the American -- the


1 British allies that were coming from the United States -- 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the Indian allies? 5 A: Yes. The -- the written version -- 6 or, sorry, the typeset version of the treaty appears in 7 my documents at (4000448) and, again, the speeches do not 8 appear. But the list of presents and how much they cost 9 does appear. The land that was surrendered in this 10 square parcel they received in return eight hundred 11 pounds (800) of value in goods and merchandise. 12 Q: So, that the 1796 purchase and then 13 the speech that you read, when he referred to lands that 14 he had purchased previously for non-aboriginal people, 15 were the lands south of the -- of the Chenail Ecarte 16 River and that was covered by the 1790 purchase? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And that this 1796 purchase was for 19 the aboriginal allies of the British who would be moving 20 from the United States? 21 A: That's right. But that the Chippewas 22 also retained an interest in that land. 23 Q: To use the land? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: And as I said, then they received 2 eight hundred pounds (800) which would be about twenty- 3 four hundred dollars ($2400). 4 Q: In our modern terminology it's, sort 5 of, use in common; everyone could use the land in common? 6 7 A: Yes, for hunting or planting. Yes. 8 Now, the -- as I say, the typeset version of the treaty 9 does not contain the totemic signatures; there's just, in 10 brackets, it says dodaim. But because the map was 11 printed to go along with it we see evidence of totemic 12 identity. 13 So, there are some witnesses to the 14 transaction, the purchase, and they're actually the 15 beneficiaries of the purchase and that is the chiefs of 16 the Ottawas, Shemmendock and Negig and Mitchewas and the 17 Ottawa chiefs then are a Crane chief, a Catfish chief 18 and, again, I'm at a loss for that one. It has four (4) 19 appendages, I can't see whether they're fins or legs and 20 whether that's a coddle fin or some other type of tail. 21 Q: And you're referring to the mark 22 that's between the crane on the top and -- 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: -- the catfish on the bottom. 25 A: This is Negig's mark but I don't know


1 enough about the Ottawa chiefs to give a confident 2 opinion on what his totemic identity is. 3 But there we have the Chippewa chiefs that 4 are actually the ones who are agreeing to the purchase. 5 And, again, we have a Catfish, a Beaver, an Eagle, an 6 Otter, a Bear, a Beaver; this is another one I'm not 7 confident. Wasson signs again. Remember Wasson from 8 1764. He's still here signing as a Crane chief and 9 Wittaness signs as well. And Peychiky signs as an Eagle 10 and Annamakance signs as a Caribou and Macounce signs as 11 a Bear and Nungee makes this cross or an X signature. 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: So, for the people who have a 14 proprietary interest and are agreeing to set aside their 15 lands for the benefit of other Indians but not giving up 16 their own rights to those same lands, we have a great -- 17 a great variety of totemic identities. 18 But for the purposes of the communities 19 that we're going to be focussing on shortly, the -- the 20 relevant totemic groups are Beaver and Caribou primarily. 21 22 Q: And the British described all of the 23 chiefs who were on the right hand side as Chippewa? 24 A: Yes, they're all described as 25 Chippewas.


1 Q: Thank you. 2 A: So, this -- this slide is just to 3 assist in seeing the -- the two (2) areas covered in the 4 purchase; they're put side by side. So, you see the land 5 at the top right, purchased in 1790, and then the lands 6 at the bottom left, purchased in 1796. 7 Q: Then in 1804, I note on page 18 of 8 your report, there's a letter written to Colonel Claus 9 who we heard about before? 10 A: Yes, he's -- he's -- by this time 11 Alexander McKee has died, and Claus is now the Deputy 12 Super -- Superintendent General of Indian Affairs. He 13 lives over near the Six (6) Nations Territory, but he's 14 responsible as well for the land and peoples in this 15 region. 16 I'm trying to find my copy of the letter. 17 Now, Wittaness is a Chief of the Chippewas, as you can 18 see by his signature here. He had signed the 1796 19 purchase. He was aware of the promises that were made by 20 Alexander McKee not to -- that they weren't in fact 21 giving up their rights to the land, they would be able to 22 continue to use it, together with their brothers from the 23 Ottawa. 24 And by 1804 though, as I say, Alexander 25 McKee is gone, there's a change in the land, in terms of


1 the number of people that are there, and the number of 2 settlers that are coming in, and Wittaness is living at 3 the River St. Clair, which would be north of the 4 surrendered area, and up here on the west bank of the St. 5 Clair River. 6 And in this letter, he -- 7 Q: On the west or east bank -- 8 A: Sorry, east bank. 9 Q: -- east bank of the St. Clair? 10 A: Yes, of the St. Clair River. And I 11 think that Wasson is also gone by now, because he -- 12 Wittaness always signs as a junior Chief in relation to 13 Wasson, but this -- this petition or this letter is 14 drafted by Wittaness, and he's writing to Claus to 15 complain about the way that the -- the officials are 16 interpreting the 1796 purchase. 17 It's only eight (8) years since the 18 purchase, and yet the people are being made -- the 19 Chippewas are being made to feel almost like strangers in 20 their own -- in their own country. 21 And so, his letter reads, and I've 22 provided an excerpt in my report. 23 Q: Can you tell me what the number of 24 that document is again, Professor Johnston? 25 A: Yes, it's (4000452), if you want to


1 see the manuscript original. But I've got it transcribed 2 in the text of my report -- 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: -- at page 18. 5 Q: Now, when you look at -- perhaps you 6 might, if we could just stop for a second before you read 7 it. The manuscript original that's in the collection of 8 documents, and this again is from, I believe RG-10? 9 A: This one (1) is actually from the 10 Claus papers, which is MG-11-F-19. 11 Q: But it's in the archives? 12 A: It's in the archives, that's right. 13 Q: And but the letter itself was -- was 14 not written by Chief Wittaness, the actual manuscript 15 property we see, or was it? 16 A: No. There's no evidence that he could 17 speak English or write. The only thing I'm confident 18 that he marked on this document is his totemic signature. 19 Q: And so, that the usual -- is it fair 20 to say the usual practice of the -- the practice would 21 have been for the Chief in this case, Wittaness, to speak 22 to someone who spoke his language? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Who would then write it down in 25 English?


1 A: Yes. In the early days, the British 2 Indian Department, almost all the -- all the officers 3 that were resident officers, that is they lived in 4 communities or territories, they were fluent in the 5 language of the aboriginal people. 6 So Claus could speak both Mohawk and -- 7 not just Mohawk, the Iroquoian language as well as the 8 Algonquian. McKee was fluent in Anishnaabemwin. He had 9 an Indian name. He was the White Elk to show that he'd 10 been embraced by the -- by the community. 11 Not at this period in the 1800's but by 12 the 1830's there were a number of missionaries, Methodist 13 missionaries who also were established within villages 14 and they could often speak and -- speak and write 15 English, but understand Ojibwe. 16 But at this early date, the Indian 17 officials -- to be a resident Indian officer, you had to 18 have fluency in the language of the people. 19 Q: So, that the speech -- the letter 20 would have been written by a British officer at the 21 request of the chief -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- who -- 24 A: Or possibly a merchant. Some of the 25 merchants at this time as well were fluent. So ,the --


1 the chief would find somebody who could understand what 2 he was telling him and who he trusted to write down what 3 he was telling him. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: So Wetawninse then makes this speech 6 which is recorded: 7 "Brother, as you always told me to let 8 you know when any person or persons 9 molested us in regard to our lands, and 10 in compliance with your friendly 11 request, I now take the liberty to 12 inform you of the same. I went 13 yesterday with Captain Harrow to 14 Chenail Ecarte to see those people that 15 are now settling there and to observe 16 whether they were encroaching on our 17 grant which, if you remember, that you 18 told me that it was allotted for us and 19 our children, and to remain so. 20 I found they had not encroached as yet 21 but Captain A. Harrow told me that we 22 had not an inch of land in these parts 23 and that which belongs to us lies a 24 great ways to the westward of this. 25 Such language as that held forth is not


1 very agreeable to us and my hope, 2 brother, will take it into 3 consideration and if possible, put a 4 stop to such proceedings and will much 5 oblige your friend and brother, 6 Wetawninse, a chief of the Chippewas." 7 And we see on the screen his mark. Now 8 there's a postscript to the document which says: 9 "Brother, I have now acquainted you of 10 it. I heard a bad bird speaking ..." 11 Metaphor for bad bird is a trouble maker 12 or a gossip or someone who's trying to create dissension. 13 "I heard a bad bird speaking and makes 14 me feel very ugly and my heart is very 15 sore." 16 And so, he -- he's communicating here, 17 first of all his vigilance to protect his territory and 18 his rights on behalf of his people and then the affront 19 that he suffers by being told that the lands that they 20 have reserved for them in fact aren't their lands and 21 seeking some redress from a person he trusts in the -- in 22 the Indian Department. As I said this -- this document 23 is found in the Claus papers and I've found no evidence 24 of a response having been sent to Wetawninse. 25 But it demonstrates to me how quickly


1 things change on the ground. I mean, in 1796 the British 2 are saying, oh yes, your Great Father is anxious and will 3 take care of all your needs. This will be for you and 4 your posterity forever and eight (8) years later they're 5 being told that they -- they don't have any -- any 6 business being in -- in that place. 7 And that sense then that, for a chief to 8 say he feels ugly is -- expresses a great amount of -- of 9 humiliation that I think he probably wouldn't have 10 expected from a British officer. 11 Q: And, then, we're going to move on but 12 the -- your report does not talk about what the British 13 did between 1804 and 1812 but with the military threat in 14 1812, as I understand it, the British then looked -- 15 looked again to their Indian allies to assist them with 16 respect to the war with the United States. 17 A: Yes. The -- the interest, I suppose, 18 that the British had waxed and waned with the -- the -- 19 the degree of security they felt in the territory and 20 they were most attentive to their Indian allies when they 21 felt vulnerable to American aggression and the Indian 22 nations around the Great Lakes came forward in great 23 numbers to assist the British against the Americans. 24 They were led by the Shawnee chief, 25 Tecumseh and his descendants -- some of his descendants -


1 - his -- some of his sisters married people in the 2 Territory and -- and their descendants continued to live. 3 In fact, at Walpole Island at reserves 4 along Lake Huron, even up into my territory at -- on 5 Georgian Bay. So, the -- I haven't provided any 6 documentation. I'm hoping people are well aware of the 7 role that the Indian nations played in the War of 1812 8 and the defence of Canada and the fact that they're still 9 a country separate from the United States is, at least, 10 in part attributable to the loyalty and commitment of His 11 Majesty's Indian allies during this conflict. 12 So, there's no much treaty activity in 13 this period. But when the war ends, again, there is -- 14 the attention shifts to matters of settlement and 15 colonial economic concerns. And so the pressure for 16 treaties increases after the -- after the war of 1812. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Would this be an 18 appropriate time for the morning break? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 20 would be an excellent time. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Thank you, 22 Commissioner. 23 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 24 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 25


1 --- Upon recessing at 11:20 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Professor Johnston, I'll just wait a 9 minute until you get the computer up and running. But 10 before we go on, I wanted to ask you if I could take you 11 to page 17 of your report. And the middle of the page 12 you have the reference to the letter written by Alexander 13 McKee -- McKee in 1795 and I believe there's a 14 typographical error in the second line of the quote? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You'll see it says: 17 "I just returned from the River Thames 18 and the Chenail Ecarte where I have 19 held council with the chiefs of the 20 Chippewas and entered into a provincial 21 agreement." 22 That should read "Provisional Agreement"? 23 A: "Provisional agreement", yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25 A: The Province does not exist at this


1 point. It was still the colony of Upper Canada. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: Sorry, that's a typo. 4 Q: I just wanted to correct that. Okay, 5 now, we're up to after the war of 1812 and you have a 6 chart, Lake Huron 1815 up on the screen? 7 A: Yes. This is the second nautical 8 survey that was done by the British after the war of 9 1812. The Great Lakes were very important to colonial 10 security and they wanted to examine places for ports and 11 harbours. 12 And Sir William Fitzwilliam Owen conducted 13 a preliminary survey in 1815 and then it was followed up 14 by a much more detailed survey a few years later by a 15 Captain Henry Bayfield. 16 This is a part of Owen's chart of Lake 17 Huron. And it's fairly similar to the document that we 18 saw -- the map that was done in 1788 by Gother Mann, 19 although he does much more detail around the peninsula he 20 calls Little Cabotia, the Saugeen Peninsular, now the 21 Bruce Peninsular. 22 But we're interested in the area coming 23 into Lake Huron along the St. Clair river. And I've 24 highlighted and enlarged a portion of this map because it 25 gives us place names that still have relevance today.


1 And the -- the names of the rivers that 2 Owen provides on this chart from 1815 are crucial in 3 identifying the location of the next purchase. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: So, he -- when he comes up the east 6 shore and travels along the southeast shore of Lake 7 Huron, the first feature that he marks, again, is this 8 prominent outcropping, very distinctively shaped, and he 9 calls it Cape Ippewash, I-P-P-E-W-A-S-H. 10 I've checked his field notes and other 11 reports to see if perhaps this was a typographical error 12 on the map, but he consistently calls it Ippewash, not 13 Ipperwash. So, I'm not sure where the R came from in the 14 modern termination, but this is the name given to this 15 feature by Captain Bayfield -- sorry, Captain Owen. 16 Now, to the north of this feature, there 17 is a river marked, and in my opinion it corresponds to 18 the river that Gother Mann called the River Aux Sable, 19 but this River has the Anishnaabemwin name on it. 20 There are a few places in fact where Owen 21 gives what are clearly translations of Indian names or 22 actual Indian names for the places, which suggests to me 23 that he had some assistance in his survey work, who were 24 either fluent in that language, or who were in fact 25 Anishnaabeg people themselves.


1 So, he calls this the River Naugissippi, 2 and that actually means sandy river in -- in Ojibwa, so 3 it suggests to me in fact that the first name for this 4 river was the Ojibwa Naugissippi, which the French called 5 River Aux Sable, which is the French for the sandy river, 6 and which Mann -- Gother Mann called River Aux Sable, but 7 the Ojibwa name for it is River Naugissippi, Sippi is the 8 root for river and Naugi is the reference to -- to sand. 9 So, this -- this area then is of crucial 10 importance, and the names that are used are also very 11 important for understanding the -- the next treaty 12 transaction. 13 Q: And this area again is the area Cape 14 Ippewash and the river -- the River Naugissippi? 15 A: Yes. If you go further up the coast, 16 a considerable distance, more than double -- about double 17 the distance that it takes you to get from the River St. 18 Clair to the River Naugissippi, we come to another river. 19 And I haven't highlighted that, but Owen calls it the Red 20 River. 21 And in the mouth of the Red River, there 22 was a very high clay bank that had been eroded on either 23 side by the action of the waves, and the -- Owen refers 24 to this in his field notes, although it doesn't show up 25 in his -- on his map, but he referred to that feature,


1 that tall cliff, as a -- a beacon. He called it the Red 2 River Beacon, B-E-A-C-O-N. 3 And later in the Treaty period you'll see 4 references to the Red River Basin, and I think that 5 again, the people misread the map. It's clearly -- the 6 Red River is now called the Maitland River, and I'm not 7 sure how much of the Beacon remains, but when we -- when 8 we turn to the next series of provisional agreements, we 9 see a reference to the Red River Basin, which I think is 10 a reference -- clearly the Red River should read Beacon, 11 though which is the -- the tall clay cliff -- 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: -- that Owen observed. 14 So, this is the -- the current mapping 15 then, after the war of 1812, and the British come back to 16 the Chippewas asking for more land, beginning in 1818. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: That begins in your report at page 19? 21 A: So, by this time there's a number of 22 resident Indian agents in the -- in the region. One (1) 23 of them is named John Askin, who lives down around the 24 Detroit area, but on -- on the Canadian side of the 25 Detroit River.


1 And he is directed by the officials to 2 seek a purchase of lands on the north side of the River 3 Thames. Recall that the lands to the south now have all 4 been surrendered, as well as the twelve (12) block -- the 5 twelve (12) mile square block at Chenail Ecarte. 6 But now the British want all the land that 7 the Chippewas own on the north side of the -- of the 8 Thames River. So, I refer to this then as dispossession, 9 because the -- the land that they have left, the -- the 10 British are intent upon purchasing, and it's clear this 11 time that their intention is for the purpose of 12 agricultural settlement by non -- non-Native settlers 13 14 because the -- the -- the land that they have left, the 15 British are intent upon purchasing and it's clear this 16 time that their intention is for the purpose of 17 agricultural settlement by non -- non-native settlers. 18 I'll start with this map. It's a bit hard 19 to read. When Askin is asked to go and arrange the 20 purchase he calls together a number of chiefs from along 21 the coast and down along the river. The coast of Lake 22 Huron and the St. Clair River and they meet at the -- I 23 think they meet at the rapids. 24 And he -- he's set this map. So the 25 officials at the Indian Department have already decided


1 the land that they want. You'll see the Thames River 2 coming along here at the bottom of this sketch. The land 3 south of the Thames river has already been organized into 4 townships and settled; the land's been granted to 5 settlers. 6 Now, they want the land north of the 7 Thames River. And with the point that goes out from the 8 head of Burlington Bay on a certain course until it 9 strikes Lake Huron. They want all the land north of the 10 Thames River going along until you get to quite close to 11 the head of Lake Ontario and then on an angle up to -- to 12 Lake Huron. 13 So, it's a very large parcel of land. 14 Now, initially it's broken up into various quadrants and 15 Askin has to figure out who owns the area in question? 16 Who does he need to consult with? How does he persuade 17 them to surrender the land? 18 And so, this is the map that he is sent. 19 In the beginning, it's not clear but the suggestion is 20 that there were no reserves marked on the map. But, as a 21 result of the meetings that he has with the chiefs, they 22 indicate, in fact, the lands that they want to keep and 23 where they are located. 24 So, this map goes from York -- Toronto 25 now, to Askin, goes to the meeting, gets marked up with


1 relation to the reserves and then goes back to 2 headquarters. 3 When he first meets with the people he 4 calls Chippewas, again, they're meeting around what's 5 modern day Sarnia, he hasn't got any representatives of 6 the people who live right on the Thames River. 7 He has representatives from people living 8 along the St. Clair River and living along the south 9 coast of Lake Huron. So, what happens and the Government 10 hadn't intended this really, but he ends up having to 11 negotiate two (2) treaties. 12 One treaty for the people right on the 13 north bank of the Thames and they're known today as 14 Chippewas of the Thames. 15 Q: And is that the area that on this 16 manuscript map of 1819 has they -- it says yellow? 17 A: Yes, it is coloured in yellow on the 18 original and it says 'Long Woods'. So, the Government 19 thought initially they could get all the Chippewas to 20 agree to selling everything north of the Thames. But, by 21 this time, we see that while different people are saying, 22 well, no, this is -- this is for certain chiefs to deal 23 with. 24 And then -- 25 Q: This being the yellow?


1 A: The yellow, sorry. Yes. And then 2 the balance north -- this is Chenail Ecarte, remember, 3 the twelve (12) mile square. So, they're saying well, 4 the people that are right on the Thames still they're a 5 different group of people. They live in a different 6 area. They've got a different Indian agent and different 7 chiefs. 8 And so, that -- the long woods tract then 9 gets separated out from the balance of the lands -- of 10 the 11 un-surrendered lands in this particular -- unpurchased 12 lands in this particular region. 13 Q: And can you help me, is the name Long 14 Woods does it appear -- I can't see it on the map. 15 Maybe -- 16 A: Sorry. First you see yellow and then 17 there's an L capital L-O-N-G and W-O-O-D. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: The Long Wood, okay? 20 Q: Thank you. 21 A: So, initially the British were hoping 22 to get the whole tract surrendered. They had to 23 negotiate, in fact, two (2) separate treaties. And so 24 the people with the long woods tract made two (2) 25 reserves for themselves and the people north of Chenail


1 Ecarte and the long woods tract made four (4) reserves. 2 Q: And the reserves on this provisional 3 map -- agreement map are in -- marked in black? 4 A: They appear to be black but I think 5 in the original they're marked in red. I haven't seen 6 the manuscript original. It would be in Ottawa but other 7 references say that they're marked in red. 8 Q: And this copy came from -- 9 A: This is from the Claus papers. 10 Q: From the Klaus papers? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And that's in the archives as well 13 in... 14 A: Yes. So the four (4) reserves that 15 the people tell Askin they want to keep, this one is 16 right in the very north along the northern boundary of 17 the twelve (12) mile square tract and that's called the 18 Lower Reserve because it's lower on the St. Clair River. 19 Then there's the Upper Reserve which is 20 near modern day Sarnia. And then there's two (2) 21 reserves on the lake shore of Lake Huron which are of 22 interest to us. 23 We see the distinctive feature here which 24 I would say, although it's not marked according to Owen's 25 plan would be Cape Ippewash.


1 This is the first time this name appears 2 that I've seen in the historic record. It says Kettle 3 Point. So, the reserve is indicated being just a little 4 bit north of Cape Ippewash and it's called Kettle Point. 5 Then there's a reserve further up and this 6 river is called River Aux Sable and there's a reserve, a 7 rectangular reserve at the River Aux Sable. 8 Now there are no acreages given but you 9 should notice that this reserve here, at what becomes the 10 Sarnia reserve looks to be relatively similar sizes to 11 the reserve at Kettle Point and at the river marked Aux 12 Sable. 13 In the final agreement, though, this 14 reserve is five (5) times bigger than these other 15 reserves. 16 Q: Than the other reserves? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there's handwriting on this seven 19 hundred and twelve thousand (712,000) acres? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you know what that refers to, 22 Professor -- 23 A: I -- 24 Q: -- Johnston? 25 A: -- think -- I think it refers to just


1 this block because you notice there's a line coming from 2 a point on the River Thames going -- going to the north 3 that I think that area, bounded by the St. Clair River to 4 the river just north of Kettle Point and coming down to 5 the Thames River exclusive of the Long Wood tract or may 6 be inclusive, would be about seven hundred and twelve 7 thousand (712,000) acres. 8 But the Provisional Agreement that was 9 actually drawn covered over 2 million acres. So, it -- 10 it included lands going up to this other boundary which 11 strikes Lake Huron above the mouth of the river that's 12 marked the river Aux Sable. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 A: So, this is the map which was 15 presented according to Askin's documentation to the 16 chiefs and these are the reserves that they selected to 17 be retained out of the purchase of -- of lands. 18 Now the Provisional Agreement in 1819 was 19 concluded on the 30th day of March. Again, the Indian 20 agent responsible was John Askin and he ended up saying 21 that he was purchasing two million seven hundred and 22 fifty-six thousand nine hundred and sixty (2,756,960) 23 acres. So, two point eight (2.8) -- 2.75 million acres 24 were being surrendered by the terms of the Provisional 25 Agreement dated 30 March, 1819.


1 Out of that surrendered area, the reserves 2 total acreage was to be twenty-three thousand and forty 3 (23,040) acres. 4 Now, we're going to be looking at a series 5 of agreements and it's important to keep track of the 6 acreage, because the reserves actually get smaller before 7 we get to the final agreement and there ends up being a 8 considerable discrepancy between the size of the reserve 9 at Sarnia and the reserves on the -- on the lake shore. 10 Q: Is there, in the archival record for 11 this provisional agreement in 1819, an indication of the 12 -- the size of each of the reserves that are noted on the 13 map? 14 A: Yes. Now, this provisional agreement 15 doesn't get published in the book. But it shows up in a 16 few places in the -- in the archives. 17 And it's another document, I have to 18 apologise. I -- I saw it on an initial list, I thought 19 it was in Jone so documents, so I didn't include it in 20 mine, but I -- I have a copy of it here, and we'll make a 21 copy for people. 22 Q: Yes, we'll make a copy, Commissioner, 23 if that's agreeable, at lunch and provide it to everyone. 24 A: It's a handwritten copy. Very 25 difficult to read. I think it's a copy of the


1 Provisional Agreement because the handwriting is Claus', 2 not Askin's. Askin was a better writer. His writing was 3 easier to read than -- than Claus. 4 But Jone has this document in -- in her 5 collection and she's prepared a transcript of it which is 6 much easier to read. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, and 8 Joan, you mean Ms. Holmes? 9 THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon, yes, Ms. 10 Holmes. 11 So, it's articles of a provisional 12 agreement dated the 30th of March, 1819 and it's entered 13 into between John Askin, Superintendent of Indian Affairs 14 on behalf of His Majesty on the one part and then a 15 series of named chiefs of the Chippewa nation of Indians: 16 "And having the tract of land 17 hereinafter described of the other part 18 and witnesseth that for and in 19 consideration of the yearly sum of one 20 thousand three hundred and seventy-five 21 (1,375) pounds province currency, one 22 half in specie and the other in goods 23 at the Montreal price." 24 Now, this is a very important part of the 25 treaty. This is the consideration. Remember, there has


1 to be some consideration for the agreement to be binding. 2 It's actually a fairly substantial amount 3 by -- by the standards of the time. I mean, it was more 4 than eight hundred (800) pounds. It's not a lump sum 5 payment. They've negotiated to be paid yearly for these 6 lands. And the amount that they've bargained for was one 7 thousand three hundred and seventy-five (1,375) pounds. 8 Now, the practice of the British had been 9 to convert the money into goods, so that people were 10 getting presents, but they weren't actually getting the 11 cash. And by this time we see I think, a growing 12 sophistication on the part of the Chippewas, because 13 they're not always happy that their presents get properly 14 distributed, some Chiefs keep more than their share of 15 the presents and the presents aren't always of the 16 quality that they expect. 17 So, they've asked for half of this money 18 to be paid to them in cash, because they're moving into 19 an economy where cash is more important. And this turns 20 out to be in fact, one (1) -- one (1) of the reasons why 21 the Government is so slow to approve the agreement, 22 because the Chippewas are asking for half of the money in 23 cash, as opposed to in -- in presents. 24 So, they're going to be paid that every 25 year by His Majesty. Then they talk about the land


1 that's being surrendered, and they say: 2 "Commencing at the division line 3 between the home district and the 4 district of London, at the most 5 northerly angle of the district of 6 Gore, being a distance of fifty (50) 7 miles and of course north forty-five 8 (45) degrees west from the outlet of 9 Burlington Bay." 10 So, what they're saying -- this is -- this 11 is -- and Burlington Bay is at the south here. And you 12 go forty-five (45) degrees north to a point fifty (50) 13 miles away, and that becomes that point right there. So, 14 that's the beginning point of this purchase. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay, perhaps what we 16 should do, Commissioner, the map, that large map that 17 Professor Johnson has referred to -- just referred to 18 now, but has referred to before, is a slide, but perhaps 19 we should mark it as the next exhibit, it would be P-6. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Fine. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The large map that 22 shows the area on the right hand side, Lake Ontario on 23 the left hand side, Lake Huron, Lake St. Clair and on the 24 bottom, Lake Erie, and marked in red on that map is what 25 is now the Thames River, but it's on there, Riviere --


1 THE WITNESS: La Tranche. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- La Tranche, the 3 Chenail Ecarte's marked in red, as well as River Aux 4 Sable. 5 THE COMMISSIONER: We'll mark that 6 Exhibit -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-6? 8 THE COMMISSIONER: -- P-6. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-6: Large Map that shows the area on 12 the right hand side, Lake Ontario 13 on the left hand side, Lake Huron, 14 Lake St. Clair and on the bottom, 15 Lake Erie, and marked in red on 16 that map is what is now the Thames 17 River, but it's on there, Riviere 18 La Tranche, the Chenail Ecarte's 19 marked in red, as well as River 20 Aux Sable. 21 22 THE WITNESS: Okay, so the -- this sketch 23 is actually attached to the Provisional Agreement in the 24 Claus papers, and so when you read the description you 25 need to get your bearings from this. This sketch forms


1 part of the Treaty. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: This particular sketch that's up on 5 the slide right now, is attached to the -- is the 6 provisional -- the Provisional Agreement? 7 A: I have the copy of it in my materials, 8 I'm not sure if it's in the ... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: But this slide hasn't been modified in 13 any way; it's -- it's a sketch. So, the -- the point of 14 commencement then, remember Lake Ontario and Burlington 15 Bay would be down here, you go fifty (50) miles on the -- 16 Q: Down here is to the right? 17 A: To the right, I'm sorry, fifty (50) -- 18 fifty (50) miles southeast, so you go on a course 19 northwest -- north, forty-five (45) degrees west, to 20 this point of commencement. And then you follow that 21 line until it strikes Lake Huron, commencing at the 22 division line, then it's on a course about north eighty- 23 four (84) degrees west, so as it strikes Lake Huron, ten 24 (10) miles and three quarters, north of the mouth of a 25 large river, emptying into the said lake, called by


1 Captain Owen, RN, Red River Basin, seventy (70) miles 2 more or less to Lake Huron. 3 So, you follow this course seventy (70) 4 miles until you reach Lake Huron, ten (10) miles above 5 this river, but notice the sketch says River Aux Sable, 6 the text of the Treaty says the Red River Basin. 7 Q: So, that the text of the Treaty 8 provides for a substantially larger area to be covered by 9 the Treaty, than the sketch that was attached to it? 10 A: It -- it -- the -- if this is the 11 River Aux Sable, then it's supposed to go ten (10) miles 12 north of the River Aux Sable, but if this is the Red 13 River Basin, then it goes ten (10) miles north. 14 So, either -- either that this designation 15 is wrong here, or the -- the Goderich would be way, way 16 up there several -- several miles, more than double the 17 frontage going up. 18 So, there -- there is a discrepancy 19 between the name of the river shown on the map and the 20 name of the river described. We get this line that 21 strikes Lake Huron; the question is, is it ten (10) miles 22 north of the River Aux Sable or is it ten (10) miles 23 north of the Red River Basin which is now at -- at 24 Goderich. 25 Q: And was there a historic -- in the


1 archive any indication of any reserve ten (10) miles 2 south of the Red River Basin? 3 A: Not that I've seen. No. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: So the description then continues: 6 "Then southerly along the shore of Lake 7 Huron crossing the mouth of the said 8 river." 9 So ten (10) miles north of the river -- 10 River Aux Sable according to the sketch, Red River Basin 11 according to the text, you cross the river. 12 "And following the several turnings and 13 windings of the said lake along the 14 waters to the River St. Clair." 15 So then you come all the way down to the 16 River St. Clair. They don't give a distance. 17 "Then southerly down the river with the 18 stream until it intersects the 19 northwest angle of Shawanoe Township. 20 Now, Shawanoe Township is what's become of 21 the twelve (12) mile square. So they're going to go down 22 to the last purchase and over: 23 "At a hickory tree marked with a broad 24 arrow on two (2) sides, half a chain 25 above the mouth of a small river."


1 A chain was a surveying distance used. 2 It's sixty-six (66) feet in -- in length. So half a 3 chain is thirty-three (33) feet. 4 "Thence east along the northern 5 boundary of the said township to the 6 northeast angle thereof." 7 So you come to the northeast angle of the 8 twelve (12) mile square that had been surrendered: 9 "Nine hundred and twenty-two (922) 10 chains more or less then north two (2) 11 miles, thence on a course about north 12 sixty-two (62) degrees, thirty (30) 13 minutes east so as it will intersect 14 the northwest angle of the township of 15 London on a straight line forty-eight 16 (48) miles more or less to the 17 northwest angle of the said township of 18 London, thence along the northern 19 boundary of this township of London on 20 a course north eighty-six (86) degrees 21 thirty (30) minutes east, nine hundred 22 and sixty (960) chains, more or less, 23 to the northeast angle of the said 24 township. Then south twenty-one (21) 25 degrees, thirty (30) minutes east along


1 the eastern boundary line of the said 2 Township of London to the purchase line 3 of 1796." 4 So coming along like this and then: 5 "Being the northerly boundary of Oxford 6 and Dorchester north on a course north 7 sixty-eight (68) degrees, thirty (30) 8 minutes east until it intersects the 9 purchase line of the 1792 at the fork 10 of the upper river Le Tranche or Thames 11 near the southwest angle of the 12 township of Blanford then northerly and 13 westerly up along the eastern edge of 14 the said river against the stream until 15 it intersects the third line and on a 16 south course from the outlet of 17 Burlington Bay of the said purchase in 18 1792, thence along the said purchase 19 line twenty-four (24) miles or less 20 until it intersects the northern 21 boundary of the lands of said purchase 22 and north forty-five (45) degrees east 23 along the said boundary line twenty 24 (20) miles more or less to the place it 25 begins."


1 Sorry for that. But it takes us -- takes 2 us all around to Lake Huron, down Lake Huron to the last 3 purchase, along this purchase line, this purchase line, 4 all the way around, up this line over to the point of 5 beginning. 6 Q: So that the line runs along the top 7 part of the area marked yellow right over to a line that 8 goes then down towards the river, along the river up to 9 another line that appears immediately on the right-hand 10 side that angles over to the point? 11 A: The point of -- 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: -- the point of commencement. So 14 that's the area that's being purchased and then they 15 speak to the location and description of the reserves 16 which was the question you had asked which is: 17 "Reserving the following tracts of land 18 coloured red on the plan hereunto 19 annexed; that is four (4) miles square 20 at some distance below the rapids of 21 the River St. Clair, one (1) mile in 22 front by four (4) deep bordering on the 23 St. Clair River." 24 So here, although it's shown as a triangle 25 they talk about it being four (4) miles square. And here


1 one (1) mile frontage on the river by four (4) miles 2 deep. 3 So those are the two (2) reserves, the 4 upper and lower reserves on the River St. Clair adjoining 5 the Shawino Township. 6 "Two (2) miles square at the River Aux 7 Sable which empties into Lake Huron." 8 So two (2) miles square here. It doesn't 9 look square. It looks like, maybe one (1) by four (4). 10 And, again, so you see this one being four (4) miles 11 square, this one's called: 12 "Two (2) miles square at the River Aux 13 Sable which empties into Lake Huron and 14 two (2) miles at Kettle Point, Lake 15 Huron." 16 So then we come down from the River Aux 17 Sable to what's indicated on the map as Kettle Point and, 18 again, it's shown as a rectangular area here but it's 19 described as two (2) miles square. 20 So the reserves on the shore of Lake Huron 21 according to the provincial -- sorry, Provisional 22 Agreement from 1819 are two (2) miles square at Kettle 23 Point, two (2) miles square at the River Aux Sable. 24 And so that contains then a total of 25 twenty-three thousand and forty (23,040) acres more or


1 less reserved. So twenty-three thousand (23,000) acres 2 are reserved and leaving 2,756,960 acres more or less for 3 the contents of this purchase. 4 So they're giving up -- no, they're 5 selling, sorry, 2.7 million acres and keeping twenty (20) 6 some thousand acres. A very, very small fraction of a 7 huge territory. 8 Q: Less than 1 percent? 9 A: Yes. Now, as I said, the -- the 10 Chippewas, by this time, were not content to take their - 11 - their payment simply in goods. They wanted to have 12 half of it paid yearly in cash. 13 And so Askin reported the results of this 14 agreement to the Indian Department. He also indicated 15 the location of the reserves that were requested, and the 16 government did not approve this agreement right away. 17 One thing that they said was, if there's 18 any white settlers in the areas that the Indians want to 19 reserve they won't be able to -- they won't be able to 20 reserve that land. 21 So, at this point, the government is 22 showing its preference, in some ways, for protecting the 23 interests of squatters over the proprietary interests of 24 their Indian allies. 25 So this agreement, as I said --


1 Q: Because up to this time unless it had 2 been purchased by the -- the Imperial Crown, the British 3 government, the land that belonged to the aboriginal 4 people was not to be used by settlers; is that not 5 correct? 6 A: That's right. Yes. 7 Q: And that's as a result of the Royal 8 Proclamation of 1763 and the agreements that had been 9 made? 10 A: And the Treaty of Niagara, yes. 11 Q: And the Treaty of Niagara? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: But, in fact, there had been -- white 14 settlers had moved onto the land? 15 A: Yes. And we see evidence of that in 16 a document we'll come to in a few minutes. So we were 17 talking about 2.7 million acres with twenty-three 18 thousand (23,000) acres to be reserved in return for a 19 payment of thirteen hundred and seventy-five (1375) 20 pounds to be split between goods and money. 21 Now, the agreement wasn't approved and 22 then it's not clear -- there's some correspondence from 23 the Indian Agent saying, well, the Indians are waiting 24 for their presents. They think they've sold the land but 25 -- but no presents have been delivered and they're


1 wondering what is going on. 2 And so George Ironside who was an Indian 3 Agent at Amhertburg and Walpole Island he goes in 1820 4 and takes another provisional agreement, and that 5 document appears in my materials at 4000458. 6 And so, this time, we have articles of a 7 provisional agreement between George Ironside and named 8 chiefs of the Chippewa tribe, and the terms are largely 9 the same. 10 The acreage that's referred to now is 11 2,750,609 acres. The reference in the text again is to 12 ten (10) miles above the Red River, although the sketch 13 shows ten (10) miles above the Sable River. 14 Q: Was there a sketch attached to that 15 particular document? 16 A: I don't think so. No. This is a 17 copy of the -- of the agreement. There -- there are 18 totemic signatures on it but I don't -- I don't recall 19 seeing a sketch. I didn't -- I didn't retrieve a copy of 20 the sketch for that document. 21 But this -- this map -- we'll see this map 22 shows up in the next provisional agreement. 23 Q: This map being manuscript map of -- 24 A: Actually, this is the map -- 25 Q: Oh, okay.


1 A: -- that shows it. But it's in 2 relation to a later provisional agreement. There end up 3 being three (3) provisional agreements before we get to 4 the final -- to the final agreement. 5 So, Ironside, then, as I said, the acreage 6 stays pretty much the same. They change the reference to 7 the payment, the mode of payment. It speaks to a yearly 8 payment of ten dollars ($10) in goods per capita. 9 So there's no longer a request for the 10 payment in -- half in cash, it's going to be in goods. 11 It's being expressed in dollars instead of pounds, the 12 idea being that every man, woman and child according to 13 the text of the agreement would be paid yearly ten 14 dollars ($10) in goods. 15 And as for the area of the reserves, 16 they're the same as appear in the 1819 agreement that is 17 two (2) miles square at the River Aux Sable and two (2) 18 miles square at Kettle Point and then the reserves 19 further south at -- at Sarnia. 20 Q: And would they remain -- at Sarnia 21 four (4) miles square and then one (1) mile fronting on 22 Lake St. Clair and four (4) miles deep? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And does it -- does it refer to the - 25 - this particular version of the Provisional Agreement


1 refer to the -- the total purchase was again 2,750,000 -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- approximately? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what the Chippewa were keeping 6 was, again, less than 1 percent? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the payment was ten dollars ($10) 9 per person? 10 A: Yes, on a yearly basis. 11 Q: And do you know -- is there any 12 indication of how many people lived -- how many people 13 would have been covered by this agreement in 1819 or 1820 14 when this one was drawn? 15 A: No. The -- the government doesn't 16 provide a count until the Provisional Agreement from 17 1825. 18 Q: Okay, thank you. 19 A: In the Provisional Agreement from 20 1820, though, we do see the -- the signatories with their 21 totemic identity. Wawanosh is listed as a chief -- a 22 Caribou chief. He becomes quite a famous caribou chief 23 at Sarnia. Annamakance is also a Caribou chief. We have 24 one (1) Beaver chief who shows up in the later record in 25 the -- important way and his name is Quakegwun. He --


1 he's a Beaver chief, and we -- we'll see his name in a 2 number of other documents. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: So then the people, as I said, are 5 wondering, after they concluded the second Provisional 6 Agreement, there's still no presents, there's still no 7 final treaty. It's clear that they are still treating 8 the land as their own and are concerned about 9 encroachments on it and there's a document that was 10 written, the 14th of May 1823, which appears in my 11 documents at 4000459. 12 Q: And that's the document at Tab 12, I 13 believe, of the document book? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: It is? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Thank you. 18 A: Now this is a letter that's written 19 to Colonel Claus who's in -- in charge of the Indian 20 Department and written by one of his deputy 21 superintendents, and which is George Ironside. 22 And Ironside's writing from Amhertburg 23 which is opposite Detroit on the -- on the eastern shore 24 in -- in British territory. 25 And he says:


1 "I beg leave to acquaint you that the 2 Chiefs of the Chippewas of the River 3 Aux Sable have lodged a complaint 4 against some persons who have made an 5 establishment on their land at the salt 6 springs, requesting of me to write to 7 them and to inquire -- and to demand 8 them to remove -- to desire them to 9 remove." 10 So this is one (1) of the first 11 references. Actually, I've skipped a document and when 12 I'm done with this we can go back, perhaps. This is 13 actually the second reference I've seen to Chippewas at 14 the River Aux Sable. 15 In the earlier documentation, the British 16 uniformly refer to them simply as Chippewas but now I 17 think that we've got this map and that there's a name for 18 the River Aux Sable and that there are people in the 19 northern limits of the territory and the Lake Huron 20 shore, we start to see references to them as the Aux 21 Sable Indians. 22 The document which I skipped and apologize 23 is the first document which makes a reference to the Aux 24 Sable Indians which is dated, actually, just a few days 25 before the Provisional Agreement.


1 Q: And what's its document number, 2 Professor Johnston? It's document number 4000457, I 3 believe, and it is Tab 13? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I mean -- excuse me, Tab 11, 6 Commissioner of the Book of Documents. 7 A: This is slide I've modified slightly 8 to present the document. And as I said, I went through 9 the first seventy (70) volumes of Indian Affairs records 10 as well as the Claus papers and this was the first 11 reference I found to Indians known as the Aux Sable 12 Indians. 13 Q: And the date of this is March 25th, 14 1820? 15 A: 1819. 16 Q: 1819. 17 A: Yes. Now, it's written by a Mr. 18 Jones, and that's William Jones, who was the Indian 19 Agent, the resident, that means he lives among the 20 Indians, at Port Sarnia. 21 And Sarnia is -- is this area to the south 22 at the rapids where we had the four (4) mile square 23 reserve. 24 Q: And you're referring there to Exhibit 25 P-6 for the area?


1 A: Yes, yes. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: So, the -- the -- this is an 4 interesting letter because the -- the -- the address at 5 the top shows it's River Aux Sable but it's clear that 6 this chief was from the River Aux Sable has travelled 7 down to Port Sarnia to speak to William Jones and to ask 8 him to write on his behalf to the Indian Department for 9 him. 10 And so the Chief's name is Wapagas, W-A-P- 11 A-G-A-S and this is the first time in the record, doesn't 12 mean that there weren't people living in this region but 13 it's the first time that the documentary record allows us 14 to put a name to a person, a Chief, within a particular 15 portion of the territory on Lake Huron. 16 Now, Wapagas has come into difficulties 17 because he spent the winter working for the government, 18 presumably assisting in work involved in the treaty, and 19 he has some debts that he hasn't been able to pay, and so 20 he's asking for support to -- to pay off his debts. 21 And there's a PS at the bottom that says: 22 "Do not let Wawanosh know anything 23 about this." 24 There -- there was some difficulty between 25 Wawanosh and other leaders in the territory. They


1 continued to be a problem through the '30s, '40s and 2 '50s. Wawanosh, at one point, was deposed and later 3 reinstated. But he's -- he's quite a complicated 4 character historically and the subject of a lot of 5 controversy. 6 But Wawanosh was recognized as a Chief at 7 Sarnia and Wapagas is a Chief as Aux Sable but you can 8 see in the very first record there -- there -- there are 9 some -- some issues as between the Sarnia people and the 10 people further up on Lake Huron. 11 Now, the part that I've highlighted at the 12 very bottom of the text is -- is difficult to read. I've 13 tried to draw it up as much as possible. There's another 14 note below the PS which says that: 15 "Wapagas is the chief of the River Aux 16 Sable Indians." 17 So again, it's -- it's telling us that 18 there are a group of Indians, they're organized 19 politically, they have a chief. They're referred as the 20 River Aux Sable Indians which suggests to me that they 21 live in the vicinity of the River Aux Sable, although 22 they're Chippewas and related obviously to other people 23 as well. 24 This document then is -- is the first 25 documentary evidence in the course of my research for


1 this report that gives a name and a place to -- that can 2 be connected directly to this part of the -- the 3 territory. 4 Now, this document does not provide us 5 with Wapagas's totemic identity. We have to wait until 6 he signs the Provisional Agreement in 1925 -- 1825 to 7 discover that he's Caribou. 8 Q: So then the document that you had 9 been referring us to in -- at Tab 12 was May 14th, I 10 believe it is, 1823, which is Document (4000459)? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that's, again, the second 13 reference to the Chippewa of River Aux Sable? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you spoke of the first part of 16 the letter which refers to people encroaching on their -- 17 their territory -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- and what else does -- can you 20 briefly paraphrase what else is -- is spoken of in this 21 letter? 22 A: It's not all with respect to the 23 Chippewas of Sarnia, sorry, the Chippewas of -- of River 24 Aux Sable. The first paragraph deals with their concern 25 that there's a trespass within their territory. The --


1 the survey that was ultimately done for the Provisional 2 Agreement and the -- after the Provisional Agreement in 3 1825 before the final agreement in 1827, was done by 4 Lewis Burwell. 5 And when he's actually the Aux Sable River 6 he shows a place where there are salt works. So, the 7 salt works in fact are on part of the Aux Sable River 8 which I'm assuming is why it's the Chippewas of the Aux 9 Sable River who are complaining about it, not the 10 Chippewas at Sarnia. 11 So, for me it does show a territorial 12 division in terms of the areas that the various chiefs 13 are responsible for watching. 14 So, the one point I wanted to make before 15 we leave the 1819 document is, Wapagas is the chief 16 before the surrender. There are all Aux Sable Indians 17 before the -- the surrender of the first -- sorry, the 18 purchase, the provisional purchase from 1819 and he's a 19 chief after -- after the purchase as well. 20 So, that this community existed 21 politically as a community withing a specific territory 22 before the first -- before the first purchase affecting 23 that territory. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you. 25 A: I'm going to go back up though to the


1 map because as I said there was a Provisional Agreement 2 in 1819, another Provisional Agreement in 1820 and then a 3 third Provisional Agreement in 1825 which ultimately 4 leaves to a final agreement of purchase in 1827. 5 Q: Could I just stop you for a second. 6 Could you go back two (2) slides on the slide -- the -- 7 the group of slides? 8 A: Which two (2) slides? 9 Q: There, that one. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: This sli -- this drawing was made 12 part of one of the agreements, I think you said earlier? 13 A: Yes, it shows up as -- I -- I style 14 it there as the 1819 Provisional, but this actual map is 15 published as part of the 1825 Provisional but it's the 16 same 17 -- it's a neater map of the sketch that we've seen. 18 Okay. 19 Q: And do you know what the 'A' and the 20 'F' refer to? 21 A: In the correspondence initialling to 22 Askin, they thought that they would be able to take from 23 the Thames River and the existing area. Remember this 24 was drawn up before the negotiations started as we saw in 25 this sketch map.


1 And I think initially they thought whey 2 were going for this block of land which was bordered 3 south from Lake Huron just north of this point at Kettle 4 Point down until it hits the Thames River and then over 5 to the -- from the line of 1790 purchase up to the 1796 6 purchase. And that I think is the area that's seven 7 hundred and twelve thousand (712,000) acres. 8 And then I'm assuming that then this was 9 suppose to be another agreement so Block 'A' is separate 10 from Block 'F'. 11 Q: Oh so, there's no -- there's no -- 12 you didn't find the document of record that described the 13 difference between 'A' and 'F'. 14 A: No. But -- but what happens it 15 becomes clear is Askin chiefs from Lake Huron and Sarnia 16 and you can't get the Thames people to show up. They 17 come later. And then they say well we want our own 18 treaty. Which again, shows an understanding. 19 It's not just the Chippewas in general 20 that have a claim to the territory. The Chippewas of 21 Thames know where their territory is and they want to 22 negotiate a separate treaty and then we see that the 23 Chippewas at Sarnia and then the lakeshore are separate 24 from the Chippewas of the -- of the Thames. 25 And so, then I -- what happens is then


1 this block gets separated out as the Long Woods tract 2 which is negotiated separately and they again have a 3 couple of Provisional Agreements before it's made final 4 and then the balance becomes this two point seven (2.7) 5 million acres with the four (4) small Reserves. 6 Q: Okay. Thank you. So, now down to 7 the map of the 1827 purchase? 8 A: Why don't we leave this one up for a 9 minute because it is from the 1825 Provisional. And 10 again, you'll see that the first reserve is just to the 11 east of the feature marked Kettle Point on the lakeshore 12 and the second Reserve is just south of the river marked 13 River Aux Sable. 14 Now, in this map actually on the Exhibit-- 15 Q: P-6. 16 A: -- P-6, the River Aux Sable is here 17 and Ipperwash isn't shown but it's just almost -- it's 18 very close in vicinity to the River Aux Sable and the 19 river -- the Red River would be much further up the 20 coast. 21 Q: The Red River would be actually off 22 the -- the map portion of P-6? 23 A: Yes. So then the question arises, 24 was, in fact, the intention if the Sable River was going 25 to be -- if it was ten (10) miles north of the Sable


1 River would it be here but this is shown as the Sable 2 River which really, in the mapping that was done by Mann 3 and Owen is much - is much closer to where the Red River 4 is. 5 So there's a discrepancy that continues 6 between the sketch of the Treaty and the text of the 7 Treaty. Remember, at this time, none of the signatures, 8 to my knowledge, can read English. I'm not sure of their 9 abilities at reading maps but they're not in a position 10 to read the -- the detailed survey descriptions that are 11 -- appear in the text of the treaty. 12 No education begins among the Indians of 13 Sarnia until the 1830s and later for the Indians of River 14 Aux Sable. The first educational institutes were founded 15 by the Methodists in the -- starting in the 1830s. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 A: So the text of the 1825 Agreement, 18 again it's a provisional agreement, is published in 19 Indian Treaties and -- and Surrenders. But there are 20 also speeches made at that meeting which were not 21 published and the manuscript copy of the speeches appears 22 in my Document 4000460. 23 Now, we have the third Indian Agent 24 brought in for this purchase. Remember, the first in 25 1819 was Askin, in 1820 Ironside, in 1825 Givins, James


1 Givins from the York Superintendency. And his task at 2 this point is to confirm the acreage, to confirm the 3 reserves, to confirm the price and the method of payment. 4 As well as to confirm the number of 5 Indians because they've agreed now to a per capita 6 payment and they need to know, at least have an estimate, 7 of the number of people living in the -- in the territory 8 to be surrendered. 9 So there's a meeting of the -- it says at 10 a treaty with the Chippewa Indians of the River St. Clair 11 and Chenail Ecarte held at the Post of Amhertburg. 12 Amhertburg is south in -- in the area opposite modern day 13 Detroit, quite close to modern day Windsor and that's 14 where Ironside was stationed but Givins has also come 15 from Toronto. 16 Are people having -- did you find the 17 document I'm referring to? Okay. Thank you. And so we 18 see that there are various Indian Department officials 19 present and -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's only on 21 Supertext, Commissioner, that -- that particular 22 document. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 THE WITNESS: And they're told by Colonel 25 Givins open the council with the usual salutations and


1 then address the chiefs as follows, 2 "I am sent by your Father the Governor 3 to treat with you for the cession..." 4 He's using the term "cession" this time 5 instead of purchase. 6 "... of a certain tract of land which 7 you sold a few years ago to your 8 Father's agent the Late Mr. Askin. 9 Which agreement was not ratified by 10 your Great Father's government in 11 England." 12 So this -- they're being told in 1825 that 13 the 1819 agreement hasn't -- hasn't been ratified and 14 they need to -- they need to redo it. 15 "I have now to propose..." 16 I'm sorry, I don't have a typeset 17 transcript. 18 "... to propose to you the repurchase 19 of the land. You are -- Are you 20 willing to let your Great Father the 21 Governor General have it?" 22 And then it says: 23 "After consideration the Chief Osawip 24 was appointed to speak in behalf of the 25 assembled chiefs and said 'Father...'"


1 I think this shows up in my report, 2 actually. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: This is at page 20 at the top of the 6 report; the extract from this speech? 7 A: Yes. So this is the reply to Givins' 8 request to -- for the repurchase, 9 "Father, we have listened attentively 10 to your words. We have always been 11 obedient children and ever ready ..." 12 I should read from my typeset: 13 "... ever ready ..." 14 Q: Why don't you just read from the -- 15 A: "We have always been obedient 16 children and ever ready to serve our 17 Great Father as well in war as in 18 peace. As it is your wish to have the 19 land which we sold in the lifetime of 20 Mr. Askin, so it is our will to oblige 21 you. We are fully sensible of the 22 paternal kindness of our Great Father 23 and we throw ourselves upon his 24 generosity; the land is yours." 25 So this -- this purchase is still set in


1 the metaphor of family, of father and children and the 2 children are saying we will keep our word. We remember 3 that we sold it to Mr. Askin, if the King wants it, the 4 King can have it. But we're giving it to him because we 5 trust in his paternal kindness and his generosity. 6 And so then Givins explains that he needs 7 to know how many people live in the territory because the 8 payment is going to be on an annual per capita basis. 9 And so the chiefs had another meeting and 10 presented their numbers as being four hundred and forty 11 (440) individuals. And so the -- the consideration was 12 to be eleven hundred (1,100) pounds in-- in goods and 13 that at a rate of four dollars ($4) per pound would be 14 four hundred (400) -- four thousand four hundred dollars 15 ($4,400) divided by four hundred and forty (440) people 16 works out magically to ten dollars ($10), which is what 17 Ironside had promised in -- in 18 -- in 1820. 18 Q: So, that's in the 1825 Provisional 19 Agreement; the compensation is ten dollars ($10) per 20 person for the four hundred and forty (440) people -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- for 2,750,000 odd acres? 23 A: Yes. On a -- on an annual -- on an 24 annual basis. 25 Q: And was the -- the amount of the land


1 reserved in the before reserve the same amount of land? 2 A: The -- the amount of land sold is set 3 out as two million seven hundred and fifty-six thousand 4 nine hundred and sixty (2,756,960). The amount reserved 5 -- they speak of it -- the describe it as two (2) miles 6 square at the River Aux Sable which empties into Lake 7 Huron and two (2) miles at Kettle Point on Lake Huron for 8 a total, including the reserves at Sarnia containing 9 twenty-three thousand and fifty-four (23,054) acres. 10 So, they -- they-- they reserved twenty- 11 three thousand (23,000) in total and -- and sell 2.7 12 million. 13 Q: So, it's less than 1 percent? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So, this agreement, as I understand 16 it, wasn't completed in 1825, either? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And the problem in 1825 was the 19 Government wanted to -- the British Government -- the 20 Imperial Government wanted to make few reserve -- to 21 survey the reserves? 22 A: Yes, so they wanted to have the area 23 formally surveyed that was being surrendered as well as 24 to establish on the ground the boundaries of the 25 particular reserves and Lewis Burwell was sent then the


1 following year to do those -- to do those surveys. 2 One point about the 1825 Provisional 3 Agreement is that there is a chief who signs by the name 4 of Wapagas and he signs with the caribou dodaim. 5 So, we have the chief of the River Aux 6 Sable signing this surrender, reserving lands -- 7 Q: By an agreement -- 8 A: -- on Lake Huron -- 9 Q: -- purchase agreement. 10 A: Sorry, I do that -- signing a 11 purchase agreement, yes, in 1825 with the -- and signing 12 with the Caribou signature. 13 Q: And the -- at this stage in early 14 1800's the Chippewa were not a farming people, were they? 15 They were hunters and fishermen? 16 A: They were primarily hunters and 17 fishermen. Some of the -- the Potawatomis and the 18 Ottawas had more experience farming. It's not that the 19 Chippewas didn't farm, but it was a very small part of 20 their annual cycle. 21 They would move through their territories 22 from fall fisheries to winter hunting grounds, to spring 23 sugaring camps to spring fisheries and then gather at 24 places where they would do some planting in the summer. 25 But they did not live by the produce of the soil. They


1 lived primarily by hunting and fishing. 2 Q: And was there any indication, and 3 perhaps we'll come to it, that the people understood by 4 this provisional agreement and the final agreement what 5 this would mean to their way of life? 6 A: No, there was no suggestion in any of 7 the speeches that I've seen that it would entail a change 8 of lifestyle. The -- the Government did not start 9 promoting its program -- so called program of 10 civilization which was to make people sedentary on small, 11 concentrated reserves and to give them a English 12 education and try to make farmers of them. 13 That policy emerged once the Indian 14 Department was shifted from the Military Secretary over 15 to the civil administration and that didn't happen until 16 the early 1830's. 17 So, there was no suggestion that they 18 wouldn't be able to stay fisherman and farm -- fishermen 19 and hunters within their territory and it was clear at 20 the time, I mean, the difficulty of bringing them 21 together to take their numbers was they weren't all in 22 one place at the same time. They -- they are often -- 23 often what we referred to as the remote hunting stations 24 or sugaring camps. 25 Q: Was there any indication that -- that


1 the people could not use the two million seven hundred 2 and fifty-six thousand (2,756,000) acres for their 3 traditional way of life? 4 A: No, there was no suggestion of that. 5 And we'll see in -- in the next few documents it actually 6 becomes an issue for the government how to persuade 7 people to settle down and start farming because that's 8 not what they bargained for and that wasn't their 9 preference or their traditional way of life. 10 Q: Okay, we'll perhaps get to that, 11 then. 12 A: Yes, we will. So Wapagas then signs 13 the 1825 agreement. We know that there are Indians known 14 as the River Aux Sable Indians which has a chief and they 15 have a proprietary claim in the land being surrendered. 16 They were watching the land even after the 17 first Provisional Agreements, concerned about 18 encroachments on -- on the salt springs. And the -- the 19 Government then, now that it has this third Provisional 20 Agreement sends a -- a Crown surveyor into the region to 21 do the survey and then once the survey's completed, they 22 call the people back together to finalize the purchase. 23 Now, this map is a very important map and 24 I'm hoping people will be able to see the difference from 25 the previous map.


1 This map accompanies the treaty, the 2 purchase, the final agreement in 1728 -- sorry, 1827. 3 We'll see this is the point of commencement. You go 4 forty-five (45) miles -- fifty (50) miles this way and 5 you hit Burlington Bay. 6 Q: And when did you say this is the 7 point of commencement you're pointing to, the 8 intersection of four (4) lines to the left of the "H" on 9 this slide. 10 A: Yes, there's actually -- it's like a 11 pie or a star coming out from this point. Almost all the 12 treaties at some point in this area intersect here to go 13 off and divide the land up into different quadrants. 14 So, this is the point of commencement 15 between the London district, the Home district and the 16 district of Gore and it's located fifty (50) miles from 17 Burlington Bay. 18 And so starting at this point, you go 19 seventy (70) miles north to hit Lake Huron, ten (10) 20 miles above the Red River basin or the Red River beacon. 21 Now all the previous sketches show that as 22 the Aux Sable River but the text of the treaty 23 consistently referred to it as the Red River. But this 24 is the first map -- remember the other sketches show a 25 reserve close to the northern limit, a reserve on the


1 mouth of the River Aux Sable. 2 This is the River Aux Sable. 3 Q: And the River Aux Sable on this map 4 is located in -- it's -- much farther south? 5 A: Much farther south and in very close 6 proximity to Cape Ippewash. 7 So, now these reserves look very close 8 together. Remember before they were quite far apart 9 because one of the mysteries of this treaty, or one of 10 the questions that has to be resolved is why would they 11 create two (2) separate reserves so close together? 12 On the first map, in fact, they weren't 13 very close together. The question remains, did the 14 people understand this to be Aux Sable River? 15 Q: And is there any indication in the 16 archival record as to -- that can help explain this -- 17 what the people may have understood? 18 A: There are some documentary references 19 to a concern that the boundary was not supposed to go 20 very far north of the Aux Sable River and when they found 21 out it went north of the Red River there were -- there 22 were some complaints about that. 23 Q: Complaints by the -- the Chippewa, of 24 the Sarnia and the River Aux Sable? 25 A: Not of the River Aux Sable. It was


1 complaints by the Chippewas of Sarnia so I didn't include 2 them in my -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- in my report. 5 Q: And when were those -- can you recall 6 when those complaints were made? 7 A: In the 1830's. 8 Q: And was anything done about those 9 complaints; no? 10 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. So, the - 11 - the first agreement, as I say, there were four (4) 12 reserves; the two (2) reserves on Lake Huron were shown 13 as a considerable distance apart but on the final 14 agreement they're shown as virtually contiguous. 15 And, again, there is a reserve at Cape 16 Ippewash in the earlier map that was referred to as 17 Kettle Point and then there's a reserve at just -- just - 18 - just to the west of the River Aux Sable. 19 And then you see a much larger reserve at 20 Sarnia. The -- the -- the reserve at Sarnia is ten 21 thousand (10,000) acres and the reserves at Kettle at 22 Ipperwash and River Aux Sable are just over two thousand 23 (2,000) acres each. 24 So, the -- the Sarnia reserve is ten 25 thousand, two hundred and eighty (10,280) acres, the


1 River Aux Sable Reserve is two thousand, six hundred and 2 fifty (2,650) and the reserve at Ipperwash is two 3 thousand, four hundred and forty-six (2,446). 4 So the Sarnia reserve is more than double 5 the combined size of the reserves on the Lake Huron 6 shore. And, again, you'll see that's not what it was 7 supposed to look like in the map that the Indians marked 8 for -- for their reserves. 9 Q: And the -- I note on the 1827 10 purchase map as well, the lower reserve on the River St. 11 Clair has also been reduced in size; at least according 12 to this chart? 13 A: Yes. It doesn't go all the way 14 across. And it's acreage now is two thousand, five 15 hundred and seventy (2,570). So, this becomes though the 16 final agreement and these are the reserves as surveyed by 17 Burwell and the field notes still exist. 18 Q: And what is the total acreage of the 19 four (4) reserves? 20 A: The total acreage of the four (4) 21 reserves is seventeen thousand, nine hundred and fifty- 22 one (17,951). In Askin's agreement the total acreage of 23 the reserve was twenty-three thousand and forty (23,040). 24 25 Q: So, approximately 25 percent of the


1 acreage has been reduced between the -- from the first 2 Provisional Agreement to the final purchase in 1827? 3 A: Yes. But there's also a reduction in 4 the total acreage. I mean, that was the problem. Before 5 they were guestimates of the acreage and then Burwell 6 actually goes in, surveys the territory, does some 7 calculations and comes up with the new acreage. 8 The acreage of the purchased lands is 2.1 9 million -- two million one hundred and eighty-two 10 thousand and forty nine (2,182,049) acres. But it's 11 still -- the reserve is less than 1 percent of the land 12 that's purchased. 13 Q: So, the final purchase was two 14 million one hundred and eighty-two thousand one hundred 15 and forty-nine (2,182,149) acres? 16 A: Zero, four nine (049) acres. 17 Q: "Zero, four nine (049) acres"? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And less than 1 percent of that or 20 seventeen thousand, nine hundred and fifty-one acres 21 (17,951) acres was reserved for the -- the four (4) 22 reserves? 23 A: Yes. And the share for the people on 24 the Lake Huron shore was just about five thousand (5,000) 25 acres. The combined total of the reserve that's marked


1 as Cape Ippewash and the reserve at the mouth of the 2 River Aux Sable. 3 So, they ended with about point 1 percent 4 of their -- or maybe 2 percent of their trad -- point 5 zero two (02) percent of their traditional lands. 6 So, this -- this treaty is convened by 7 George Ironside again. The acreage is confirmed and the 8 annuity is a -- eleven hundred pounds (1100) which was 9 what was agreed to in 1825 and, again, the initial 10 request of the Chippewas had been for the annuities to be 11 half in species, half in goods. 12 But the -- in the final agreement they're 13 -- they're totally to be paid in goods. Now, part of the 14 concern about being paid in goods, as I suggested, was 15 that sometimes there was a variability in the quality of 16 the goods that were sent to the stations for people to 17 pick up. 18 And then the goods or the presents start 19 to be used by the Government as a manner -- in a manner 20 to affect the lifestyle choices of the people. So, that 21 initially the goods, remember, were guns and twine and 22 things that could be used for hunting and fishing and by 23 the 1830s the government is changing the goods to 24 agricultural implements and a cow is not much good if you 25 don't have a barn or a plough.


1 Well, I could eat it, I guess, but it -- 2 and -- and so actually the Indian agent for the people on 3 Lake Huron has to fight with the Department consistently 4 for them to continue to provide ammunition instead of 5 farming implements. 6 So the control over the goods is -- is 7 actually an important issue around who gets to make 8 lifestyle decisions for the people. And if they had had 9 the cash, that they wouldn't have been, I don't -- in my 10 opinion, as vulnerable to the -- to the -- the plans that 11 the government had for pinning people down into -- in to 12 very small settlements and trying to get them to farm 13 land that was not always suitable for agriculture. 14 Q: Thank you. And if I might just skip 15 ahead to Page 22 of your report, and we'll come back to 16 Page 20, but the question I asked earlier about the 17 traditional lifestyle of the people who lived in this 2.1 18 million acres of land that was sold, continued, as I 19 understand it, there after the sale of the land? 20 A: Yes. Again, there is correspondence 21 from the Indian agents -- makes it clear that they have 22 trouble calling people together for meetings because 23 they're off in their remote hunting territories or 24 they're off making sugar and that they only come together 25 at -- usually at one (1) -- one (1) season of the year


1 which is the fall, which was the time for the 2 distribution of the annual presents. 3 Now these presents weren't the Treaty 4 payment money, but the money from the Treaty of -- the 5 presents from the Treaty of Niagara. 6 So it's clear that they had incorporated 7 the distribution of presents into their annual cycle. 8 They would come in the fall to pick up their presents and 9 then go off to their hunting grounds. 10 And what they took to their hunting 11 grounds were blankets and guns and ammunition and 12 tobacco. And we'll see, eventually, the government 13 changing what they're offering and when they're offering 14 it and a lot of complaints about -- about the presents 15 and -- and the goods. 16 Now, you might get the impression when you 17 see this map with these four (4) discrete squares that 18 the people were living within them, but it's -- it's 19 quite clear from the historic record, by this time, that 20 the people are still out on -- on the land, and they have 21 to be persuaded to congregate in the villages and the 22 first village to get well established of the four (4) is 23 the largest one (1) at Sarnia. 24 But even there, it's the combined efforts 25 of the Methodist missionaries and the -- and the


1 government officials to get the people to settle down. 2 What they would do is say, we will build 3 you houses and the first person who got a house built for 4 them was Chief Wawanosh. You build a house in the 5 village then the people are more inclined to live there. 6 They built schools in the villages, the 7 Methodists. They -- the -- the government, on occasion, 8 when the people asked for medical assistance or 9 assistance from blacksmith, the government would say, you 10 can't -- we won't send you a blacksmith or make these 11 improvements unless you settle into a village. 12 So the sustenance that the King -- that 13 had been promised in the King's name became then 14 conditional upon the people adopting the -- the -- a 15 sedentary lifestyle which suited the interests of the 16 government and the missionaries. 17 Because it was hard for the farming of the 18 non-aboriginal settlers to coincide with the hunting 19 lifestyle of the Chippewas and actually there is some 20 correspondence where people got in trouble for shooting 21 cows but they were out in their hunting territories and 22 so the -- there was pressure almost immediately after the 23 surrender, after the purchase I should say, to have 24 people congregate and to stop their lifestyle. 25 There was a period in the early 1830's,


1 actually, when a cholera epidemic swept through most of 2 southern Ontario and it affected the people at the Grand 3 River and at Sarnia also up to Penatanguishene and 4 there's evidence there that people had just started to 5 live in the village and when cholera struck they all went 6 back out into the bush and they thought they were safer 7 and healthier living on the land than being in these 8 villages with poor water -- in some cases, poor water 9 supplies and poor -- poor housing. 10 So if we want to look at a few documents 11 that speak to this -- this process of -- 12 Q: Certainly. 13 A: -- collecting. 14 Q: And I think you've referred to it in 15 Page 22 of your -- and we'll come back to Page 20 in a 16 moment -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- but I thought -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- that would be -- 21 A: I -- I divided my report thematically 22 into the documents that talk about the Sable Indians and 23 the documents that talk about the removal project, but 24 actually the removal project's documents pre-date a 25 number of the other ones we're going to look at.


1 So that that's why I think, if you want to 2 keep to a time -- a chronological order, perhaps it would 3 be helpful -- 4 Q: Sure we can go back -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Okay. We'll go back and do it that 7 way. 8 A: Yes. So -- so we have the 1827 9 purchase, we have this large reserve at Sarnia and two 10 (2) reserves further up on Lake Huron and then the one 11 (1) at -- lower down on the boundary of the Sombra 12 Township. 13 And the government by 1830, as I said, the 14 Indian Department had been transferred from the Military 15 Secretary's Portfolio to the Civil Administration. And 16 there was a concern at how to facilitate the settlement 17 of this region by non-aboriginal farmers. 18 The land had been purchased by the Crown 19 but there was a concern that it was going to be hard to 20 have people -- the two (2) lifestyles co-existing and so 21 they started to put pressure, even though they had agreed 22 for four (4) reserves, they started to put pressure on 23 the people at Sarnia to move to the River Aux Sable. 24 Q: The people in the largest reserve -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- to move to what was one (1) of the 2 -- well, the smaller -- 3 A: They didn't move, but they were 4 requested to move. And so -- and there's -- there's 5 quite a lot of correspondence about this. And what it 6 shows, I think, is even -- by this time, when the four 7 (4) reserves are settled, this is the last of the -- 8 well, almost the last of the -- of the purchases. 9 And the government wants to send the 10 Sarnia Indians, because that's the most settled area, 11 there's a growing town and then they think that there's 12 problems with the Indians living so close to the 13 settlers. And so there is ample correspondence of the 14 efforts of the Indian Department to get the Sarnia people 15 to move further north into a more remote area out of -- 16 out of settlements' ways. 17 And so there's a letter which appears in 18 my materials at Document 4000461 and it's the Deputy 19 Superintendent James Givins who is writing to Mr. 20 Ironside who's at Amhertburg, so Givins is in Toronto, 21 which is now York, which is the -- the capital of Upper 22 Canada. 23 And he says that Mr. Ironside is being 24 asked to propose their removal to the Sarnia Indians. 25 "He would explain to the chiefs that a


1 village will be formed as soon as 2 possible for their residence on any 3 convenient spot which may be thought 4 more advantageous for their habitation 5 than the divided tracts now occupied by 6 them." 7 So it took them ten (10) years to agree -- 8 almost ten (10) years from -- eight (8) years to agree to 9 -- to set aside these lands and now, within two (2), 10 three (3) years, they're saying, well, it's really not 11 that convenient to have all of you split up. 12 We would like to move people to one (1) 13 spot and the spot they recommended was the most remote 14 which was the River Aux Sable Reserve. 15 Q: And can you tell us, remind me again, 16 what was the size of the River Aux Sable Reserve? 17 A: Two thousand, six hundred and fifty 18 (2,650) acres and the Sarnia Reserve was over ten 19 thousand (10,000) acres. 20 Now, the idea was that if they moved, 21 again, according to Givins, that they would be able to 22 make themselves, 23 "As independent as the settlers are who 24 gradually closed around them and will 25 soon occupy their hunting grounds."


1 So they're being told, you better move out 2 of the way because your hunting grounds are going to 3 disappear and if you want to be self-sufficient, you 4 won't be able to do it by hunting, go -- go up and start 5 farming. 6 Now, the irony, of course, is that there's 7 much better farmland around Sarnia than there is at the 8 River Aux Sable, but they're trying to tell them that 9 they should become farmers and they should move to the -- 10 to the River Aux Sable. 11 So, then Ironside was instructed to, 12 "Endeavour to collect them on one (1) 13 reserve near the River Aux Sable as it 14 will be impossible to accomplish the 15 objects the Lieutenant Governor has in 16 mind while they continue on the St. 17 Clair and have frequent intercourse 18 with the traders on the opposite 19 shore." 20 So, again, by this point there's actually 21 quite an ambitious plan to -- and I use this term in 22 quotation marks "to civilize the Indians", to get them to 23 become sedentary, live in one place, become farmers, 24 become Christians, this is all happening at the same 25 time.


1 And they're being told they won't be able 2 to survive as hunters anyways so that they should move 3 and the place that's recommended for their movement is 4 the most remote. 5 Q: And they don't like them trading, I 6 take it from this letter, with the fur traders from the 7 American side of the border? 8 A: Yes. There were some problems on the 9 border, partly because they -- their stock in trade was 10 often rum and whiskey so that there were some actual 11 social concerns at the time. 12 But it's a bit self-serving to move them 13 entirely out of the way of the settlers with the best 14 agricultural lands. So the -- that document was dated -- 15 Q: 1830? 16 A: Yes, April -- 17 Q: 12th, 1830? 18 A: -- 12th, 1830. And then in May, 19 again, May 26th, 1830, Givins writes back to Ironside 20 because it appears Ironside has been a bit too ambitious 21 in his efforts to persuade them to remove. 22 He's clearly encountered some resistance. 23 The people have said they don't want to move and then 24 he's said, well, if you don't move bad things are going 25 to happen and that this letter says,


1 "The Lieutenant Governor having heard 2 with regret from Mr. Clench..." 3 Mr. Clench is the Indian Agent at the 4 River Thames and there's agents at Walpole, Keating at 5 Walpole, Ironsides at Amhertberg, Clench is at the River 6 Thames, William Jones is at Sarnia. And these agents 7 don't always get along and they're often reporting on 8 each other for having either exceeded their authority -- 9 so this is the case where Ironside is in trouble because 10 Clench has reported to the Lieutenant Governor, 11 "... that you have informed the Indians 12 of St. Clair that their presence would 13 be discontinued if they did not comply 14 with His Excellency's wishes and he has 15 directed me to desire that you will 16 never again go beyond your instructions 17 nor think of using any kind of menace 18 to the tribes among whom you are about 19 to reside for the purpose of 20 conciliating them." 21 So the government does want the Indians to 22 move but there are limits to the tactics that they're 23 willing to -- to bring to bear to achieve this object. 24 The Lieutenant Governor at the time was Colburne. 25 Q: Sir John Colburne?


1 A: Sir John Colburne, yes. And he was 2 the first of the Lieutenant Governors interested in the 3 Methodist Missionaries' plan for a civilisation, as I 4 said, which involved Christianising the Indians and 5 making them agricultural -- sedentary agriculturalists. 6 Q: And, in fact, on page 22 of your 7 report you set out the instructions given to George 8 Ironside with respect to this. It's in a letter from 9 Colburne or his officials? 10 A: Yes. There -- there were a number of 11 letters that were sent out to the various agents and he's 12 being asked: 13 "The wishes of the Lieutenant Governor 14 respecting their future occupations and 15 mode of life..." 16 This is a very fair going lifestyle change 17 that the government has in mind. 18 "He will explain to the chiefs that a 19 village will be formed as soon as 20 possible and then press the necessity 21 of the proposed changes and how it must 22 tend greatly to their comfort and 23 benefit and they ought to lose no time 24 in clearing and cultivating their own 25 lands and making themselves..."


1 That's what I read from, I'm sorry. 2 Q: That's what you read from before? 3 A: From the first document. 4 Q: Thank you. I'm sorry. 5 A: So, but this is a very ambitious plan 6 of changing their mode of life and, remember, this is 7 three (3) years after the purchase and there was no 8 reference during those discussions that these changes 9 would be required of the -- of the people. 10 Now, as I said, Ironside was not the only 11 Indian Agent assigned this task. There was also William 12 -- William Jones who was living at Sarnia and he writes a 13 letter in June of 1830, again it's just three (3) years 14 after the final purchase, and he's reporting on his 15 attempts to try and persuade the Indians to settle 16 themselves on some part of the tract eastward of the 17 Lower Reserve near Sombra, that's the elongated one (1) 18 at the top. 19 And, again, the Indian Agents are divided 20 about where the Indians should go. William Jones thinks 21 that they should be asked to stay near Sarnia. Maybe 22 because that's where he lives and he doesn't want to have 23 to go up and -- and live on the River Sable. 24 But the Department's being informed from a 25 variety of sources that the -- the people, now that


1 they're down to 1 percent or less than 1 percent of their 2 territory they have no intention of -- of moving again. 3 So William Jones reports in his letter 4 from June 24th, which is Document 4000464, he employed 5 the good offices of an old Chief and his son from Walpole 6 Island and they come back, after visiting the various 7 leaders, he -- William Jones reports: 8 "The old Chief and his son and nephew 9 have returned and reported their entire 10 failure in their attempts to prevail 11 upon the Indians to remove from the 12 place proposed for them by his 13 Excellency." 14 And this is when -- then Jones suggests, 15 rather than trying to get them to go all the way up to 16 the River Aux Sable, maybe there's some intermediate 17 steps that can be taken and he says at the end of his 18 letter: 19 "I am really afraid the attempting it 20 for the present will prove to be in 21 vain. Would it not be better to settle 22 them on our -- on one (1) of the 23 reserves on the St. Clair for the 24 present and perhaps the knowledge they 25 may acquire by living in a civilized


1 state will convince them that they -- 2 their prosperity of their --propriety - 3 - sorry -- of their being unconnected 4 with the settlements of the white 5 people." 6 So there's a current -- a concern to 7 separate them from the white settlement but Jones is 8 saying it's probably going to be easier to have them just 9 settle right at the St. Clair instead of trying to move 10 them. 11 So they're doing a couple of things at 12 once. They want the people to come off the land, out of 13 their hunting territories, into these discrete reserves 14 and the question is where is that reserve going to be. 15 And the government's preference is for it 16 to be in the more remote part of the area but it -- 17 they're -- they're running into -- into resistance. 18 Now there's another report by Jones a few 19 days later, June 28th, 1830 and that's the Document 20 4000465. And again, he's reporting on how difficult this 21 process of removal and concentration is proving to be and 22 he says, 23 "The Indians attachments to their 24 present habitations and the waters of 25 the St. Clair seems to be so great and


1 so deeply rooted that I think the 2 desire -- their desire to object cannot 3 be easily affected. At least it will 4 require much time and persuasion." 5 Again, he's talking about the Sarnia 6 Indians, but the idea is that once they've lost the 7 majority of their territory, the places that they've held 8 on to are the ones that they wouldn't give up. They're 9 the most, I think, precious of -- of their territory and 10 they're not at all interested now in the government's 11 efforts to move them beyond -- beyond those lands. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps this would be 13 a convenient time to break for lunch? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 15 Now, ten (10) after 1:00 by my watch, it's 16 five (5) after 1:00 up there. How -- what -- what time 17 should we break till to -- to give folks a chance to ... 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Maybe till 2:20? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:20? We'll 20 adjourn now till 2:20, thank you very much. 21 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 22 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:20 p.m. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 1:10 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 2:18 p.m.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 Our clocks aren't synchronized; that's eighteen (18) 5 minutes after so we're two (2) minutes early. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I apologize, 10 Commissioner. Commissioner, we are making some copies 11 but they won't be ready until the break and so the 12 afternoon break, I'll bring them in and we can deal with 13 them? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Professor Johnston, you need your 18 machine back on. 19 A: I'm sorry, I'll try again. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Oh, is it up? 22 Q: It was up and then -- so prior to the 23 lunch break we were discussing the pressures on the 24 Chippewa to move from the -- one (1) reserve to another? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Do you want to just carry on from 2 there please? 3 A: Yes. As I said, it took a number of 4 years to finalize the agreement. The reserves were first 5 agreed to in 1819 and the agreement didn't get finalized 6 until 1827 and within three (3) years of the finalization 7 there was considerable pressure exerted. 8 The government was now dissatisfied with 9 these four (4) discreet reserves and they were 10 particularly concerned about the potential for conflict 11 and -- between the hunting lifestyle of the Chippewas and 12 -- and the farming of the settlers. 13 And they first decided that they would 14 like to move the people from Sarnia -- the Sarnia area up 15 to the River Aux Sable. And these efforts were resisted, 16 even in spite of threats that were made by some of the 17 Indian Agents. 18 And there is a document which is quite 19 illustrative, I think, of this resistance. In a cultural 20 context at page -- sorry, Document 4000466 and it's dated 21 the 13th August, 1830. And it's William Jones again 22 who's the resident Indian Agent at Fort Sarnia and he has 23 interaction with Chief Wawanosh who, at this point, is 24 considered the head chief of the Sarnia Indians. 25 Wawanosh is a Caribou Chief. And Jones


1 writes a letter explaining to his superiors at York or 2 Toronto the difficulty he's having persuading the people 3 to move. And he reports that he, 4 "... had an interview with Wawanosh 5 where I explained to him His 6 Excellency's wishes as fully as I felt 7 myself authorized to do it. After 8 hearing all I had to say and expressing 9 his approbation of the greater part..." 10 That is the policy around supporting them 11 in a transition to a farming economy: 12 "... he firmly protested against 13 removing from his present residence on 14 the Upper Reserve near the rapids of 15 the St. Claire." 16 And we'll see it, it's the second reserve 17 on the St. Claire River, the largest, the ten thousand 18 (10,000) acre reserve. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: "... he firmly protested against 21 removing from his present residence on 22 the Upper Reserve near the rapids of 23 the St. Claire saying that he had been 24 promised by the agents of the 25 government when the sale of their lands


1 was made that the Indians should never 2 again be disturbed from the reserves 3 then allotted to them; that his 4 relations and friends were buried near 5 his present residence and that he hoped 6 the Governor would not insist on his 7 being removed from the place to which 8 he was so particularly attached." 9 Now he did agree that he was willing to 10 settle more permanently in the village and he said that 11 he was prepared to have his children educated and 12 learning to live like white people and that if his 13 Excellency would agree to settle them on the upper 14 reserve, he thought he could immediately collect a dozen 15 families to join him. 16 "He followed me..." 17 This is underlined in the letter. 18 "He followed me more than a mile to 19 repeat his wish to remain where he now 20 is." 21 So you have this image of Jones trying to 22 go home and Wawanosh following him saying, I'm -- we're 23 not leaving and the fear is, you see, at this point it's 24 clear that there isn't a large settlement at the Sarnia 25 reserve, even though it's the largest reserve that the


1 people are still living off the land. 2 But under such concentrated efforts to -- 3 to move them, Wawanosh agrees to a more sedentary 4 lifestyle and to bring his people within the boundaries 5 of the reserve so that they don't have to leave their 6 dead behind, and this is a theme which gets repeated in 7 other documents where the government is urging removals. 8 Now, at this point in his report, Jones 9 suggested switching strategy. Remember, the initial 10 strategy was to have the Sarnia Indians move to the River 11 Aux Sable, and Jones suggests: 12 "I shall take the liberty to advise his 13 making a commencement of settlement on 14 someone of the reserves as soon as 15 convenient with such number as can be 16 collected and I think that the others, 17 finding themselves deprived of the 18 advantages which those may enjoy, will 19 soon agree to join them." 20 So Jones' strategy is to get as many 21 Indians as possible to settle. Those Indians who settle 22 within the boundaries of the reserve at Sarnia will have 23 houses built for them, there'll be schools for their 24 children, there'll be medical assistance, the assistance 25 of blacksmiths, of teachers, of agricultural implements.


1 And this is a strategy that the government 2 repeats, in my experience, in various territories that 3 people are told that if they want the benefits that were 4 promised under the Treaty, they must live exclusively 5 within the area reserved for them by that Treaty. 6 In my own experience on the Saugeen 7 peninsula, our people were granted an annuity and they 8 were virtually told that if they lived in the bush, if 9 they didn't settle Owen Sound or Saugeen, they wouldn't 10 get their annuities paid to them. 11 So the Government is using the annuities, 12 the treaty money, the presents as a way to restrict 13 peoples choices about their lifestyle in this -- this new 14 era. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: So, this is -- it's not quite the 17 last that we hear from the removal project although the 18 pressure does ease up slightly and the Government puts 19 its efforts in, then, to building houses. 20 There's lots of documentation about the 21 houses getting built at Sarnia and Wawanosh gets the 22 biggest house and the other chiefs are complaining that 23 he's keeping all the stoves and there's -- there's quite 24 a bit of -- of effort and -- and money being spent on 25 these -- on these initiatives.


1 And again, the policy of the Indian 2 Department is if that the other people, the people that 3 are still out hunting and fishing, if -- if they want to 4 educate their children and have houses built for them, 5 that they -- they will have to come off the land and into 6 the settled reservations. 7 There's one (1) last document which speaks 8 to the concern about removal and it's dated June 15th, 9 1844. And -- 10 Q: What number is that? 11 A: Actually, no. This may be another 12 document where I have it in my collection but I'm not 13 sure if it's in the main collection. 14 Q: Okay, well if you could just read it 15 to us, of course -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- and add to it -- 18 A: Okay. It should be -- it's one (1) 19 of those documents where there were several together in a 20 series of pages. If it is in the Supertext it will be at 21 4000477. 22 And it starts at stamped page number at 23 the top of the record which is the Indian Affairs Number 24 81575. But I'm -- it -- it may not because -- 25 Q: It's at --


1 A: -- it was a -- 2 Q: -- Tab 16 in the book of documents, 3 Commissioner and it's 4000477. 4 A: That's a document I'll come to in a 5 minute, but that -- 6 Q: Oh? 7 A: -- but there was actually a bundle of 8 documents in this one (1) record and I'm afraid I've 9 included the letter from the Aux Sable Indians, but 10 there's an also -- also a letter which is relevant to the 11 removal of the Sarnia Indians. 12 Just to demonstrate that this pressure for 13 removal continues through the 30's and the 40's and 14 people are feeling if they don't come and settle in -- in 15 the Sarnia Village that they -- they would lose those 16 lands and have to go somewhere else. So this speech is 17 from that same file, Volume 142, it's a petition that 18 starts at page 81575 and the chiefs have gone to William 19 Jones and asked him to send a letter to the Lieutenant 20 Governor and part of what they are worried about, they 21 say: 22 "Father, many rumours are around that 23 this Reserve --" 24 That is the Sarnia Reserve: 25 "-- is to be sold and that we are to be


1 compelled to s ell the land we have and 2 go north to Sandy Plains where the sun 3 would even with its little heat scorch 4 up our crops and where we should meet 5 but hard and uncultivatable rock. 6 Although we do not believe these 7 things, yet we have nothing to tell of 8 our right to this Reserve." 9 So they know the advantages at Sarnia, 10 they know the soil is better at Sarnia, they're very 11 concerned about going to the River Aux Sable because the 12 soil there is very sandy and the heat is -- is greater. 13 And they know their rights. They know 14 that the Treaty confirmed this reserve to them and they 15 continue with their petition: 16 "Father we beg for a copy of the Treaty 17 ensuring us our homes in order that it 18 may be placed in the hands of the Head 19 Chief and a person -- " 20 I'm sorry I can's make out one of the 21 words. 22 "-- that the title to reside here 23 unmolested and leave it -- leave to our 24 children after us a resting place for 25 them to stand upon."


1 So, they -- they don't even have a copy of 2 the Treaty. They're being pressured by the government to 3 move and they're -- they know the Treaty promised them 4 these protections and so they're asking to have a little 5 bit more power in this -- in this relationship and -- and 6 facing these pressures. 7 Now in the end the Sarnia Indians never do 8 move to the River Aux Sable. They do surrender the 9 reserve on the north of the -- the 1796 purchase. 10 Q: And on this -- this slide it's the 11 lower reserve on the very left hand side of this slide. 12 A: Yes. And so what this series of 13 correspondence suggests to me or underlines for me is the 14 attachment that particular groups felt to particular 15 places that the Sarnia Indians wanted to be at Sarnia. 16 They did not want to be at the River Aux 17 Sable, that they have given up 99 percent of their land 18 and that the 1 percent that they had retained, they were 19 not going to give up even if it meant making their Great 20 Father angry. Even when they were faced with threats and 21 other -- other promises. 22 They did change their lifestyle 23 dramatically and confine themselves over time to the 24 boundaries of their Reserve at Sarnia. But they refused 25 to be removed. And so it speaks to the attachment that


1 people have to their lands. 2 They purchased -- they allowed a great 3 deal to be purchased but they -- they refuse to quit 4 entirely their ancient places and one of the reasons that 5 Wawanosh gave is he doesn't want to be separated from the 6 graves of his -- of his relations. 7 So, this early removal campaign does show 8 the strength of the attachment. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: Now I'd like to go back to some of 11 the documents that were mentioned earlier in my report 12 with reference to the Aux Sable Indians as opposed to the 13 Sarnia Indians. And we have that first letter that pre- 14 dates the Provisional Agreement of 1819 showing Wapagas 15 as a chief of the River Aux Sable Indians. 16 Sorry, I'll -- I'll leave this slide there 17 for a moment. Now one of the things you'll recall that 18 were done -- that was done with the Treaty is a head 19 count was taken; there were four hundred and forty (440) 20 people. And when the money or actually the goods were 21 going to be distributed, the Government had to know which 22 Indians were entitled to proceeds or benefits from the 23 land sale. 24 And by this time, in the 1830's there was 25 already begun to be an influx of Potawatomis people from


1 the American side of their territory on Lake Huron. And 2 so the Indian Department is striving mightily to figure 3 out who are the Potawatomis who are entitle to presents 4 because of the Treaty of Niagara, to which the Chippewas 5 are also entitled; and then who are the Chippewas who are 6 entitled to land payments. 7 So there's a difference between the land 8 payment entitlement and the Treaty of Niagara entitlement 9 to presents. And the land payment, remember, is not a 10 payment in money, it's a payment in goods and those goods 11 are being manipulated to try to influence people's 12 lifestyle choices. 13 So, William Jones reports on the 19th of 14 December, 1833 -- this is when we received the first 15 count of the signatories to the treaty, beneficiaries to 16 the treaty, who are River Aux Sable Indians as opposed to 17 Sarnia or Walpole Indians. And that document is number 18 4000469. 19 I didn't produce a slide of it, because 20 it's quite hard to read, but it -- it does show up -- 21 there's a letter starting at page -- Volume 54 at page 22 58033 and then an actual -- what we call numerical 23 return, a chart showing the numbers of people living in 24 the various areas. 25 Q: And this material actually,


1 Commissioner, is at Tab 14 of the document book. 2 A: So, again we have William Jones, who's 3 living at the Upper Indian Reserve, St. Clair, and he's 4 been requested in October of that year to transmit: 5 "A census of the surviving Chippewa 6 Indians of the Chenail Ecarte and St. 7 Clair, and of their surviving 8 descendants, who are parties to the 9 sale of land to the Crown for which the 10 present annuity is payment." 11 It's important to understand the 12 Government capped the annuity at four hundred and forty 13 (440) people and if the number of people increased the 14 annuity would not increase, but if the number of people 15 decreased the annuity would decrease. So, they're -- 16 they're keeping count and -- so this is the first 17 document that I've encountered where the Indian 18 Department separates out the number of Sable Indians from 19 Sarnia Indians and Walpole Indians. And so it appears at 20 page 58035 of the document. 21 And we see that there are three hundred 22 and thirty-nine (339) Indians at St. Clair and Walpole, 23 or Chenail Ecarte. But then he says, under remarks: 24 "The following Chippewas of the River 25 Aux Sable are in the habit of


1 participating in the annuities and 2 claim a right to be acknowledged as 3 parties to the said sale of land." 4 So, that is that they were proprietors of 5 the tract and had a share in the proceeds of it's sale. 6 "There's one (1) Chief , seven (7) 7 Warriors, five (5) wives or widows, six 8 (6) boys from age ten (10) to fifteen 9 (15), three (3) from age five (5) to 10 nine (9), two (2) from age one (1) to 11 four (4), seven (7) girls from age five 12 (5) to nine (9), and five (5) girls 13 from age one (1) to four (4), for a 14 total of thirty-six (36) souls." 15 So, there's thirty-six (36) people at the 16 River Aux Sable and we know that Wapagas was their Chief 17 as early as 1819, and Wapagas also signed the Provisional 18 Agreement of 1825, and we know from his signature on the 19 Provisional Agreement that he's Caribou. 20 So, relative to the number of Indians at 21 Sarnia and Chenail Ecarte, we have three hundred and 22 thirty-nine (339) living at the rapids and on Walpole 23 Island and less than 10 percent or about 10 percent of 24 that number are living at the River Aux Sable. 25 Q: And at this point is there any, in the


1 record, any distinction between Kettle Point and the 2 River Aux Sable? 3 A: No. The term Kettle Point appears on 4 the -- on the sketch map that we looked at from the 5 Provisional Agreement, I don't see it again in the record 6 for the areas that I consider. They're always called the 7 River Aux Sable Indians, and I think that refers to the 8 group of people, not necessarily the one (1) reserve 9 that's located there, but we'll see a few more 10 references. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. 12 A: So, I'm going to jump ahead to 1838, 13 there's a document at 4000472. And, again, it's William 14 Jones who is still the superintendent or the resident 15 Indian agent and he writes on the 15th December, 1838, 16 and Jones as you remember, has been having a difficult 17 time -- well, maybe you don't remember, but there are 18 lots of correspondence where the different agents are 19 tattling on each other saying, you know what, the 20 Department was always concerned they had more Indians 21 than they had so that they would get more goods and then 22 they could use them for other purposes. 23 So, they were being very closely 24 scrutinized on their returns, especially once the 25 Potawatomis people begin moving into the territory on a


1 more permanent basis. There's very, very close scrutiny 2 of -- of how much -- how many goods are being sent for 3 what purpose and how they're being used. 4 So, Jones is writing and he says, first of 5 all he speaks about the difficulty -- he says: 6 "I beg to observe that more difficulty 7 than perhaps you are aware of attends 8 the assembling of the Indians from 9 their remote hunting stations to which 10 they have gone immediately after you 11 paid them annuity after their having 12 been tampered with as they have during 13 the past year. And their minds soured 14 by disappointment of their presents for 15 the last two (2) years with which they 16 never fail to reproach the Government 17 and me." 18 So he's having trouble because the 19 presents aren't always arriving. The people would show 20 up to get their presents and they're not there. And the 21 Government will send a directive from York saying, get 22 all the Indians together, and he says, it's -- it's not 23 that easy. 24 There -- there are people that very remote 25 hunting grounds and -- and it's clear at this time


1 they're not all still living in the villages. 2 Now, the one thing that Jones is getting 3 in particular trouble for and responding to in this 4 correspondence is he's giving out more ammunition than 5 he's supposed to be. 6 By this time, the Government is insisting 7 on most of the goods being agricultural implements, 8 again, to persuade people to farm and Jones is using more 9 than what the Government thinks is his share of the 10 stores of ammunition. 11 And so he's -- he feels then he has to -- 12 he says: 13 "In making my requisition for the 14 quantity of ammunition which appears to 15 you so unnecessarily great, I 16 considered the difficulty which usually 17 attends and the great length of time it 18 commonly requires to get supplies of 19 any kind to this place." 20 Because his concern is that goods don't 21 always make it. He wants as large a store as he can have 22 because the people are still relying on game for their 23 sustenance and the ammunition is -- is for their guns. 24 Now, he contrasts the position of these 25 Indians in his superintendency with that of the Grand


1 River. Now, the Grand River is occupied by the 2 Haudenosaunee. They are a sedentary people much 3 accustomed to farming. And so the Department's saying, 4 well, how come they're not, you know, coming along as 5 quickly in agricultural pursuits as the people at the 6 Grand River. 7 And so Jones says: 8 "The situation and circumstances of the 9 Grand River Indians are very different 10 from those of these Indians. Those can 11 get a fresh supply at a short notice, 12 have but little game in their country 13 and have good farms to furnish their 14 families with provisions. The reverse 15 is the case with these. And no matter 16 for what purpose an Indian may have 17 ammunitions given to him, it would be 18 extremely difficult to prevent him from 19 firing at game when he has an 20 opportunity." 21 So it's clear that the people are still 22 making a living from hunting and not totally cooperating 23 with the Government's plans to turn their minds to -- to 24 farming. 25 The -- the next document is about a year


1 later and it's at Tab -- not Tab, I'm sorry, Document 2 4000473. And this is a document, again, which speaks to 3 the authority of the -- of the chiefs and one of the 4 things that the Government started doing in the late 5 1830s was to start paying a salary to chiefs in various 6 communities in an effort -- well, people have different 7 views about what the purpose of that was, but partly to 8 increase their influence. And Wawanosh was the main 9 chief at Sarnia and then this letter dated the 13th May, 10 1839, again it's William Jones and he says: 11 "I have the honour of stating that the 12 Indians whose names are hereto annexed 13 requested me to inform you that it is 14 their wish to allow Wawanosh as their 15 head chief the sum of seventy-five 16 pounds (75) currency per annum to be 17 taken out of their annuity before any 18 division thereof should be made." 19 So they have eleven hundred (1100) to be 20 divided among, at least, four hundred and forty (440) 21 people but before they start the per capita division they 22 want to pay a salary to Wawanosh of seventy-five pounds 23 (75). 24 And then it continues: 25 "And also that they wish to allot the


1 chief of the River Aux Sable, Wapagas 2 to have a fifteen pounds (15) in money 3 out of the annuity." 4 So, we -- it's a reiteration, this is 5 twenty (20) years later after we first hear of Wapagas in 6 the documentary record that he's still the chief of the 7 River Aux Sable Indians and that they want him to have a 8 salary. 9 Now, perhaps the difference in the salary 10 is proportional to the number in the community. I mean, 11 Wapagas has a much smaller community compared to -- 12 compared to Wawanosh so he's -- he's allotted fifteen 13 pounds (15), five (5) times less than what -- what 14 Wawanosh gets. 15 This document is signed by several 16 community members. Wapagas signs himself with his 17 caribou dodaim and opposite his name is says 'Chief of 18 the River Aux Sable'. So we're still seeing a continuity 19 of leadership and a continuing designation of these 20 people by reference to the River Aux Sable. 21 Q: And is that -- do you have a slide 22 that shows that particular -- that's the slide? 23 A: Yes. I'm sorry. There it is. Yes. 24 This is the second signature page. There are other 25 signatures. We can see Wapagas is the third name down


1 and you'll see it says 'Chief of the River Aux Sable'. 2 What you see -- the first name is also a 3 chief but he's -- I don't think he's from Aux Sable. 4 There's no indication that he is; that's a Caribou mark. 5 And then a species of fish, I think, the next one. 6 Then Caribou, Caribou, Caribou, Caribou, 7 Bear, possibly Pike, Otter, Turtle, another fish, 8 Caribou, Eagle, Beaver, Caribou, Bear, Bear, Caribou, 9 Beaver and the last one's a Beaver. It's kind of 10 interesting because the beaver's got it's front legs up 11 on the tree and it's working it -- it appears. 12 So, these -- these are Indian people from 13 both Sarnia and, at this point, the only one that I can 14 confidently identify as a River Aux Sable Indian is the 15 Chief of the River Aux Sable. 16 We have to wait for petitions that are 17 specific to the Aux Sable River before we can -- I can be 18 more confident about identify people as Aux Sable 19 Indians. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So there is a -- another letter which 22 is of interest that dates from 1840 and I think it's the 23 document which we distributed yesterday? 24 Q: Yes, it's the document that's at Tab 25 20 -- behind Tab 20. It was December 8, 1840?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And it's a letter from William Jones 3 who's at Port Sarnia? 4 A: Yes. And it's from Volume 74, Record 5 Group 10 and it's 1840. Now, we're into the 1840s and 6 this is the first evidence I've seen that the people on 7 the Aux Sable are starting to take farming as an 8 alternative lifestyle. 9 Remember, in the 1830s, even as late as 10 1838, the Sarnia Indians said they didn't want to move to 11 the Aux Sable because it was just not a conducive place 12 for agriculture. 13 So, William Jones is reporting that he was 14 contacted by a Mr. Louis Rent (phonetic). Now, one of 15 the things, I'm not sure if -- it might take me a minute 16 to get back at this other document. 17 At one point there was a suggestion that 18 more land should be bought for the Sable Indians further 19 up in the Canada Company tract which goes north very 20 close to the boundary of -- of the reserve. Closer to 21 Goderich actually, so north of the River Aux Sable, that 22 there would be better farmland there. 23 There was a suggestion that one hundred 24 (100) acres be purchased for Wapagas so that if they were 25 going to farm they would be on better farmland. And so


1 this record is a reference -- some of the chiefs went 2 ahead and made an offer to buy some land and then the -- 3 they told -- William Jones was told by this proposed 4 vendor that if he wasn't paid for the land that the 5 Indians had tried to buy from him, he was -- he was going 6 to consider the sale cancelled. 7 Part of the problem with the annuities is 8 that the -- the people were not give cash. They could 9 only get cash if they traded furs, if they were still 10 hunting, or if they sold sugar or farming produce. 11 But because it was an annuity system, any 12 time the Indians wanted to access their money, they had 13 to go the Indian agent who had to do a requisition in 14 triplicate to get the money paid from York. 15 So there were always problems with people 16 getting into debt and not being able to pay their debts 17 because they didn't have access to money that was 18 promised to them. 19 So this is an example where, if they had 20 had cash, they might have had more control over their 21 affairs. But -- so as far as I can tell, the purchase of 22 good farm land for the -- the Sable Indians never takes 23 place. 24 But he says on the second page, 25 "The Indians of the River Aux Sable


1 wish the government to purchase the 2 eastern reserve at that place and to 3 appropriate the money to making 4 improvements for them on the western 5 reservation where they are settled. 6 It appears the soil of the eastern 7 reserve is not good but there is some 8 reliable pine timber on it." 9 So we have the two (2) reserves, the -- 10 the reserve which becomes known as Kettle Point is the 11 western reserve. Let's see if we can find a -- a good 12 map. 13 Q: Is that...? 14 A: Yes. Okay. So there are two (2) 15 reserves quite close together in the final version of the 16 treaty and this is at Cape Ippewash which becomes known 17 as Kettle Point, it's designated that -- vicinity is 18 designated as Kettle Point in the provisional agreement 19 in the text to the treaty, but the actual plan still 20 calls it Cape Ippewash. 21 And then there's the reserve at the mouth 22 of the Sable River. So this is the -- the Sable River 23 reserve is the eastern reserve and the Kettle -- what 24 becomes the Kettle Point reserve is the western reserve 25 in this correspondence.


1 And there's an acknowledgement that if the 2 people want to farm, it's the land to the west which is 3 better than the sand dunes to the east, although there's 4 some good pine, they say, in the -- the reserve to the 5 east. 6 And so because the government hasn't 7 provided any better farmland for them, and they're being 8 pressured to farm because they're not -- the -- their 9 goods are being put into farming implements. Then the -- 10 there's an indication by the date of this letter of 1840 11 that the people are settled on the western reserve, that 12 that's where they're forming a more permanent settlement 13 and the suggestion that they would sell the eastern 14 reserve if it would help them to accommodate -- to -- to 15 take up farming more -- with more success. 16 I didn't find any other documents, though, 17 in terms of a government response to this suggest to sell 18 -- to the suggestion to sell the -- the eastern reserve 19 and this is the first indication that they've settled 20 anywhere and the suggestion is they've settled on the -- 21 on the western reserve. 22 But they're still calling themselves the 23 Sable Indians because they're both actually very close in 24 the vicinity of the -- of the River Aux Sable. 25 Now, the next document that I want to look


1 at underlines the fact that the Sable Indians were 2 considered to be separate from the Sarnia Indians who 3 again were considered to be separate from the Walpole 4 Indians and that is the document that we added yesterday 5 as well. 6 Q: That's at the very last document in 7 the Book of Documents at Tab 20, Commissioner. 8 A: And I have a slide of this document. 9 It's -- it's been modified slightly to assist people with 10 --with reading it. 11 Now, I didn't include the whole document 12 in -- in the collection. It's actually a very lengthy 13 petition complaining about Wawanosh from Sarnia. 14 Remember, he's the head chief. He gets his annuity 15 before anyone. He gets his salary before anyone gets a 16 share of the annuity. 17 But there have been challenges to his 18 authority over the last decade and this petition is 19 particularly interesting because of the organization of 20 the signatures. 21 You'll see that first of all, all the 22 Sable Indians sign together. Or at least the Sable 23 Chiefs. And then the Port Sarnia Indians sign, and then 24 the Walpole Island Indians sign. 25 I've done a close-up of the section that


1 was signed by the Sable Indians and it says, 'Head Chiefs 2 of the Sable'. So Wawanosh is considered a Head Chief of 3 Sarnia but now they're saying we have Head Chiefs as well 4 at the -- at the Sable. 5 And we have a Beaver Chief, Quakegwun. 6 Now he signed a number of the Treaty documents and he's - 7 - he's given his mark as a Beaver and next to him is 8 Wapagas who signs as a Caribou. 9 And then there's Shawanon, a turtle and 10 Pok-nia-qui I think is a pike and Naoquigish is -- I'm 11 sorry, I'm having trouble reading it, that's an Eagle 12 Chief and then the last signature is a Caribou Chief. So 13 they're designated as Sable Indians, they designate their 14 Head Chiefs and they say that they've signed on behalf of 15 the Indians of the River Aux Sable which is how they 16 identify themselves. 17 And they do so in contra distinction to 18 the Walpole Indians and the Port Sarnia Indians. Okay, 19 so we -- we see here then this Chief Quakegwun and he -- 20 he did sign the 1827 final agreement and there's early 21 evidence of him actually living at Sarnia. 22 And so there is a document which actually 23 speaks to why he moved from Sarnia to the River Aux 24 Sable. He didn't move because the Reserve was forced to 25 remove him. I mean, they kept the Reserve at Sarnia but


1 he speaks to the difficulties that he has. The document 2 is 4000475. And the last page of the document looks like 3 this. 4 I've modified it just to give an 5 indication of the -- the meaning of the totemic symbols. 6 So we have caribou, beaver, bear, caribou, beaver, 7 caribou, pike, bear, beaver, caribou, caribou, eagle 8 signing this. Now this document dates from January of 9 1842. It's a petition to our Great Father in Kingston. 10 It was a while when the capital moved 11 between Toronto and Kingston. The capital of Upper 12 Canada. And so this is a petition specifically by the 13 Aux Sable Indians and the earlier petitions we've seen 14 and the Treaties we've seen people signing in concert 15 with other communities. But this is a -- a petition 16 specific to the Aux Sable Indians. 17 And they're appealing to their Great 18 Father and they're saying they don't want to trespass on 19 his kindness but there's no one else they can turn to. 20 So they're sending this petition. And they say, 21 "Father, settled up Port Sarnia, the 22 injustice and unkind treatment of 23 Wawanosh drove us to seek at the Sable, 24 a refuge from his oppression. Few of 25 us at first left our homes. But now


1 our number -- our numbers have 2 increased and the -- 3 They could have added to their small Band. 4 He said, 5 "We now reckon thirty-six (36) 6 families." 7 So remember in 1833 with William Jones 8 there was thirty-six (36) people at the Sable now there 9 are thirty-six (36) families at the Sable. 10 "Father, we have already cleared many 11 acres on our Reserve but there is 12 little good land and one (1) of our 13 Chiefs has purchased from the Canada 14 Company a small tract. We now beg that 15 funds for the purchase of one hundred 16 (100) more acres be granted to us for 17 the use of Wapagas and his Band. 18 Father, we entreat you to pay attention 19 to our utter destitution of all means 20 of instructing our children and of all 21 assistance in the worship of our God. 22 Father, we have entered the pale of the 23 Protestant church, the religion of our 24 Great Father is now that of your humble 25 supplicants and we trust that you will


1 obtain for us our instruction for our 2 youth and guide for us in the paths of 3 salvation. But perhaps, Father, we ask 4 too much. If so, grant us only a 5 teacher who will at the same time be 6 able to act as an interpreter when the 7 steps of a clergyman happen to be 8 directed towards us. And who, in the 9 meantime, can assist us in our 10 endeavours to make our progress 11 acceptable to the Great Author of our 12 being. 13 Father the annuity derived from the 14 sale of our lands does afford us the 15 benefits which our Great Father 16 intended it should. 17 Father, we hear of it's amount, but 18 small indeed is the share we see of it. 19 Grant, then, we pray you that it be 20 divided according to our numbers and 21 that, as at Walpole Island, the Sable 22 Indians may receive a stated sum. 23 Father, we trust to see you soon and 24 shake you by the hand with all the 25 warmth of affection when we have much


1 indeed to say to you. Meantime, we beg 2 of you not to listen to any calumnies 3 preferred against us." 4 I'm on the last page now. 5 "Our true friend, George Henry, and 6 eager 7 8 to see you, we throw ourselves upon 9 your kindness for the accomplishment of 10 our humble wishes." 11 So, this is a strategy, and we see in more 12 than one (1) community, in fact, Samuel P. Jarvis 13 (phonetic), who was the head of the Indian Department 14 starting in about 1837, told the Tribes that the Queen 15 was Anglican and that if the people really wanted to make 16 the Queen happy, they would all become Anglican. 17 Most of them became Methodists and there 18 is some suggestion that the Anglicans got treated better 19 than the Methodists, but there is this sense that they're 20 complying now, they're trying to farm, they're becoming 21 Christian, they're becoming -- they're wanting to educate 22 their children, but they're still destitute and -- and 23 they're asking for assistance. 24 And again this -- this reiteration that 25 the land is -- is insufficient for their needs and for


1 their numbers, but I found no evidence that the 2 Government concluded any additional purchase for them. 3 So, this petition helps to explain both 4 the changing circumstances and the -- the difficulties 5 that the people are in at the Aux Sable and also the 6 large addition to their numbers of -- of people who felt 7 that they were -- would be better off at the Sable than 8 living under the oppression that was being practised at - 9 - at Sarnia. 10 Now, at the same time as people are moving 11 from Sarnia to the River Aux Sable, there are Potawatomis 12 who are coming from the American territories into the 13 British territories. Now historically these Indians were 14 called the visiting Indians, that is they came every year 15 to the post on the British side to receive their presents 16 from the Treaty of Niagara and from their -- their loyal 17 assistance during the American War of Independence and 18 the War of 1812. 19 And by the 1830's and into the 1840's, the 20 Americans were on their Manifest Destiny campaign, which 21 was to move all the Indians forcibly across the 22 Mississippi, and many of them didn't want to go across 23 the Mississippi. 24 And at the same time, the Government 25 started saying -- the British government said that unless


1 the visiting Indians settled permanent -- permanently in 2 Upper Canada, they would not -- they would no longer be 3 entitled to presents. 4 So, they were being pushed on one (1) side 5 and the other and many of the Potawatomis then choose to 6 come into British territory. 7 And so while the people are having a 8 difficulty because they don't have enough land and it's a 9 difficult transition to agriculture, there's also then 10 the added pressure of people looking to the British to 11 honour their promises to the -- to the Potawatomis. 12 Now, some of the correspondence suggests 13 that they're immigrants, but -- the Potawatomis -- but 14 that takes a very short range view, and in my view there 15 were Potawatomis at Detroit in the 1760's and the 1790's 16 and so it's only a matter of one (1) or two (2) 17 generations and these people have continued to -- to 18 support the British. 19 So, there -- there is then an increased 20 demand, it seems to the Government, in the -- the 21 presents and so there's correspondence between the 22 Governors Office and the Indian Department about whether 23 these Potawatomis are entitled to presents and there are 24 later discussions about where they're -- where they're 25 going to live.


1 But just with respect to the presents, 2 there is a document at 4000476 which is dated May 9th, 3 1844, and it's written by Mr. Jarvis, who's in charge of 4 the Indian Department and he's writing to the Colonial -- 5 the Governor's Secretary, Mr. Higginson. 6 And he's sending a numerical return for 7 the presents that are required for distribution and he's 8 been asked to account to the -- Mr. Rossin (phonetic) , 9 then who's one of the accountants for the Government, 10 "Whether those Indians who had 11 emigrated from the United States and 12 settled at the St. Clair frontier were 13 entitled to His Majesty's bounty on the 14 grounds that they might be from a 15 distance who had not any former 16 services established a claim to the -- 17 to the present or who had not on 18 previous occasions presented themselves 19 for them." 20 And, again, that's, sort of, the 21 bookkeeping aspect of trying to keep the costs down. But 22 Mr. Jarvis replies: 23 "It is a matter of history that all the 24 Chippewas, Potawatomis and Ottawas who 25 inhabited the Great Peninsular formed


1 by Lake Huron and Michigan --" 2 Sorry, there's a word I might -- 3 something: 4 "-- the royal standard at the 5 commencement -- joined the royal 6 standard at the commencement of the war 7 of 1812 between England and the United 8 States and remained in Upper Canada 9 until peace was proclaimed when most of 10 them returned with their families to 11 their old settlements within the limits 12 of the United States. They have, since 13 that period, continued to receive 14 presents, generally at Amhertberg until 15 the established was formed at the 16 Manitoulin Island. The great distance 17 they were compelled to travel to reach 18 Manitoulin deterred many of them from 19 undertaking the journey. The 20 determination of the British Government 21 to discontinue presents to Indians from 22 the United States who had not prior to 23 August 1843 settled themselves 24 permanently in Upper Canada induced 25 many hundreds to emigrate from the


1 Michigan Territory, some of whom 2 proceeded direct to Manitoulin and 3 others crossed the St. Clair and 4 settled at Walpole Island and at Port 5 Sarnia." 6 So, there's an influx of people into the 7 territory. The Government is styling them as immigrants 8 but they -- they've been in the southern Lake Huron 9 region from a very early period and they've been loyal to 10 the British. And the people in the Indian Department 11 realize this but they're having a hard time persuading 12 the bookkeepers that these expenditures are -- are 13 justified. 14 Now, another document dating from 1844 15 appears at -- is Document 4000477. It's dated June 16 15th -- 17 Q: And that's Tab 16 in the Book of 18 Documents? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Sorry I'm -- I think I -- I've looked 24 at this one already; haven't we? 25 Q: Pardon?


1 A: No, I'm sorry. They start to blur 2 together after a while because they're asking for the -- 3 similar things. 4 Now, this is from Document 142 at page 5 81579 and, again, it's -- it's dated from the River Aux 6 Sable and there's an added term now, Bosanquek which is 7 the name of the township that was surveyed around -- 8 around the reserve. 9 And I was trying to find my copy because I 10 have it highlighted the text that I want to go through. 11 These are a number, again, of chiefs. I didn't copy the 12 signature page but it's signed by Quakegwun the Beaver, 13 and a number of other Beavers and Caribou and Otters and 14 Catfish and Eagles. 15 But they're complaining that they've gone 16 into debt. Remember, they don't have any access to 17 currency. They're receiving their -- their annuities in 18 -- in goods and they're quite alarmed because some 19 judgments have been entered against them and they're 20 basically asking for help and reminding the Governor 21 General that: 22 "Father, I tell you of this: You are 23 aware how the Governor General, our 24 father, told us to work, to be like the 25 white man. To be more saving and to


1 take upon his religion. He told us 2 that whoever should work themselves 3 that he would give them anything to 4 help them on with their work. Well, we 5 are trying to do so. We would like to 6 be noticed that we are thus inclined 7 and yet we are in want." 8 So, they're -- they're trying to make the 9 -- the transition and they're having great difficulty. 10 They're impoverished. They're being sued by merchants 11 for debts that they can't pay. 12 They're on land that's not sufficiently 13 suited to agricultural purposes and these are people who 14 joined the British in friendship in 1763 and there's a 24 15 Nations Belt that says their lives will never sink in 16 poverty. 17 And they continue to call upon the 18 Governor General as their father, but their material 19 circumstances do not improve. 20 This is one (1) of the last documents that 21 I consider in my report. We've seen already a number of 22 documents with totemic signatures. We know that there 23 are at least two (2) chiefs at the Sable, Quakegwun who's 24 a Beaver chief and Wapagas who's a Caribou chief. 25 And this document is a census from 1845.


1 And again, William Jones has been called upon to account 2 for the money that he's spending to say who's entitled to 3 money under -- or to goods, I should say, under the -- 4 under the treaty. 5 This document is at 4000483. It's also at 6 Tab 17 in my document binder. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 A: The slide shows the second page of 9 the numerical return. It's called a numerical return 10 because it gives numbers, but it's also a nominal return. 11 Most of the early returns were strictly 12 numerical, that is, they only gave the numbers, they 13 didn't give the names of peoples. But it's the nominal 14 returns that are vital to making connections between 15 people and places. 16 So, this is the most complete nominal 17 return. This is the earliest nominal return that I've 18 been able to find and what you can do, is you can put the 19 names up against the documents that have totemic 20 signatures and then see the composition of the band. 21 So, first of all he deals with the Indians 22 at Sarnia and at Walpole and he marks a few X's on the 23 first page and he says on the second page that: 24 "The names marked X are the ones who do 25 not originally belong to the tribe, but


1 they have married women who do and have 2 wives and children." 3 This again is the Government becoming very 4 concerned about, sort of a hereditary issue and 5 entitlement. In the aboriginal tradition, if a -- a man 6 married into and lived in the community, then he and -- 7 and the children were considered as members of that 8 community. 9 But the Government was taking the position 10 that people marrying in were not entitled to the proceeds 11 of sale, and this -- we start to see actually much more 12 interference in even the marriage choices of -- of people 13 because they're -- they're at risk of losing their 14 annuities and eventually we -- we see legislation where 15 women who marry non-natives are not allowed to live on 16 the reserve and -- and are, in fact, forced to be 17 separated from their communities. 18 So, this -- this return, though, when we 19 get to the second page, I've highlighted the section 20 that's indicated the Osabal (phonetic) Indians. And 21 remember the first return that we saw, a numeric return, 22 we had thirty-six (36) people, and now there are 23 considerably more. 24 The hundred and twelve (112) doesn't -- is 25 -- is the total for the whole page not for the -- not for


1 the Osabol Indians, but we see the names of the chief and 2 then the number of people who are in their band. 3 So this -- at this point we see -- we've 4 known for a while that there are two (2) chiefs at 5 Osabol, but here we see that the chiefs are divided into 6 two (2) bands, that is Wapagas' band and Quakegwun's 7 band. Quakegwun is the Beaver chief, Wapagas is the 8 Caribou chief. 9 And Wapagas, we know, is the chief from 10 before the -- the provisional agreement in 1819. So 11 Wapagas has eight (8) members in his family and then his 12 various -- members of his band have smaller families. 13 There's a name -- there's a name of two 14 (2) women on this return among Wapagas' band but I 15 haven't been able to find any totemic signatures for them 16 in any of the documents that I've considered. 17 Now, when I first found this return it was 18 before I had the other documents that show the totemic 19 identity and so my first intuition was that Wapagas' band 20 would be Caribou because Wapagas is Caribou and that then 21 Quakegwun's band would be Beaver because Quakegwun is a 22 Beaver. 23 And it was also easy then to jump, 24 potentially, to a conclusion that well, these bands are 25 of different totemic identify and maybe they also live in


1 different places. 2 But when I found the -- the other 3 documents that show totemic identity, this is one (1) of 4 them but there's -- there's three (3) that I have in -- 5 in the collection and worked back and forth between, 6 Wapagas is Caribou but he has Beavers in his -- in his 7 band. 8 He also has at least one (1) Bear in his 9 band and Quakegwun is Beaver but he has Caribous in his 10 band and also Bears, and then we see that in addition to 11 -- the Caribou and the Beaver are the predominant clans 12 but there are also Bear and Pike and Eagle. 13 So the community doesn't divide up 14 strictly on totemic lines. And I also found no evidence 15 that they separated themselves in terms of their 16 residence. In fact, the one (1) document suggests they 17 were both settling on the western reserve. 18 One (1) of the families that's mentioned, 19 you'll see on the return, the seventh down, is a name, it 20 says "Wai" -- sorry "Wai" (phonetic) which means "young" 21 Quasind (phonetic) or Quasind the second. 22 And you'll see under Quakegwun's band 23 there's Quasind the first. So I assume that's father and 24 son and one (1) of them of them is with Wapagas and one 25 (1) of them is with Quakegwun.


1 So they're -- they don't break down on 2 easy -- easy lines. There are Caribou and Crane -- 3 sorry, Caribou and Beaver in both -- in both bands. What 4 it means is these people follow this leader. This 5 leader, I assume, would be -- would speak for them and 6 they would be the chiefs who take receipt of the goods at 7 distribution and provide them to their followers. 8 But what we can say then about the Aux 9 Sable Indians of the period -- I -- I stopped my work 10 about -- about this time. These are some of the last -- 11 totemic documents I was able to find and work in between 12 the nominal census and these signatures have sense of who 13 the Sable Indians are. 14 They're Caribou and Beaver people. 15 There's a Caribou Chief and a Beaver Chief but not all 16 the Beavers follow the Beaver Chief and not all the 17 Caribou follow the Caribou Chief. 18 They're consistently referred to as the 19 Aux Sable Indians. They're not distinguished on the 20 basis of residence on one (1) particular location or 21 another in the period that I consider. 22 Q: Thank you. And I asked you earlier 23 about complaints made with respect to the boundary on the 24 1827 purchase and you were able to locate a -- a letter 25 that we're having copied -- or at least the transcript of


1 the letter, and it's a letter dated September 20th, 2 1839 -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and can you tell us who wrote that 5 letter and to whom and read it in -- read it for us 6 please? 7 A: Okay. This is a letter that I did 8 not retrieve in the course of my research for this 9 project. I've been doing research on RG10 records for 10 more than a decade and in other work I have prepared 11 transcripts. And so I -- I had a digital copy of this 12 transcript but I -- I didn't retrieve the document partly 13 due to time constraints and also -- mostly due to -- to 14 time constraints. And -- and I wasn't aware until quite 15 late in my report that there was such a huge discrepancy 16 between the sketches and the text of the treaty. 17 So this document, I've seen in the past 18 although I don't have a copy of it with me but I do have 19 a transcript from the National Archives of Canada RG10, 20 Volume 71, page 66186 to 66188 and it's found at Reel C- 21 11-025. 22 And it's in memorial of the St. Clair 23 Indians complaining that advantage has been taken of them 24 with respect to the surrender sale by them of the tract 25 of land south of the River Aux Sable to the Crown in


1 1825. So it's styled as the Chiefs of the St. Clair 2 which is partly and perhaps why I didn't br -- bring it 3 into the collection yet. 4 But on closer examination there is one 5 Sable chief who signs, Wapagas signs. So the letter 6 reads, 7 "Your chiefs of the St. Clair Indians, 8 beg leave most respectfully to 9 represent to their Great Father, Sir 10 George Arthur, that in the year 1825 11 they surrendered part of their 12 territory to their Great Father, the 13 King of Great Britain for the annual 14 sum of eleven hundred pounds (1100) 15 currency. 16 But the tract for which this amount was 17 to be paid included only that country 18 lying south of the River Aux Sable. 19 At the time of the surrender, Colonel 20 Givins asked them to allow the boundary 21 line to commence a few miles above the 22 said river and to run in a direct 23 course for the head of Lake Ontario. 24 And promised on behalf of the 25 government to pay them what would be


1 right, but which has not yet been 2 fulfilled. 3 Moreover, they are sorry to state that 4 instead of the boundary being fixed as 5 then understood, it has since has been 6 carried about ten (10) miles beyond 7 Goderich on the shores of Lake Huron, 8 taking in about fifty (50) miles more 9 than they surrendered and for which 10 they have never received any 11 compensation from the government. 12 They beg also to state that it is their 13 wish that the Reserve on the Saugeen 14 territory might be enlarged so as to 15 include Owen Sound and Saugeen all of 16 which is respectfully submitted for His 17 Excellency's consideration and for 18 adjustments." 19 This dates from September 25, 1839 and 20 then there are a series of signature; Wawanosh, Ojibecum 21 (phonetic), Wapagas, Quakegwun, and Megazens (phonetic). 22 And at the time that I prepared this transcript, I wasn't 23 as well versed in totemic identity as I now am so I have 24 a series of question marks beside the names. 25 But I can tell you that Wawanosh is Antler


1 and Wapagas is Antler -- I'm sorry, Caribou, Wapagas is 2 Caribou and Quakegwun is Beaver. So we have the Beaver 3 and Caribou chiefs objecting to the movement of the 4 boundary from Aux Sable River to the Goderich River. 5 Q: And the actual letter is -- or the 6 notation for this letter is September 20, 1839 and then 7 on September 25, 1839 it's referred to -- 8 A: I'm sorry, you're right. The number 9 of dates will show up on the docket or the outside -- the 10 outside sheet so, but it's 1839. 11 Q: Thank you. Now could I take you to 12 one (1) last -- the next slide, two (2) slides down 13 actually. This slide is as of 1840? 14 A: Yes. This was a map that was 15 prepared to show the principal surrender of Indian lands 16 in Upper Canada prior to 1840. Now the first surrender 17 started in 18 -- sorry, in the 1780's with the lands 18 purchased from the Mississaugas for the -- to create a 19 reserve for the Haudenosaunee. 20 And in the period starting the 1790's we 21 have the first surrender -- the first purchase south of 22 Lake St. Clair and then between 1790 and 1840, so a fifty 23 (50) year period you see massive, I use the term 24 dispossession, surrender, session purchase, of the lands 25 occupied by the Aboriginal people and mostly Chippewas


1 and Mississaugas on the north shores of Lake Erie and 2 Lake Ontario. 3 The only land that -- remained un- 4 surrendered after 1836 in fact is my ancestors' territory 5 on the -- on the Saugeen peninsula and that Reserve was 6 surrendered in 1854. So by 1854 and back then the north 7 shore is gone because there's been the Robinson Huron 8 surrender. 9 So very -- I mean, the Reserves are so 10 small that they don't even show up on the map of -- of 11 this scale, very and in a relatively short period of time 12 a couple of generations, the -- the land base of the 13 Aboriginal people is -- is -- has been acquired by the 14 Crown and people are living on small Reserves trying to 15 make an adjustment to a sedentary agricultural lifestyle. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 17 Commissioner, it might be an appropriate time for the 18 break. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 20 Yes. Thank you very much. We'll break for fifteen (15) 21 minutes. It's twenty-five (25) after on my watch, twenty 22 (20) up there, break for fifteen (15) minutes, so twenty- 23 five (25) to. Okay. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.


1 --- Upon recessing at 3:22 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 3:40 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Now, I think we were down to about 9 page 24 on -- in your report. 10 A: I'll keep this map up for a moment, 11 which shows southern Ontario and the extent of the Treaty 12 process by 1840, whereby most of the lands had been 13 purchased or surrendered. And the one (1) last large 14 reserve on the mainland, as I said, was the peninsula 15 that separates Lake Huron from Georgian Bay. 16 Now, there was a plan by the government, 17 encouraged by the Methodist missionaries, for saving the 18 Saugeen Reserve, as it was called, or the Saugeen 19 Peninsula, as a place of refuge for any number of Indians 20 that might want to settle there. And the government was 21 particularly keen through the 1840's and the early 1850's 22 to move people from the so-called scattered reserves into 23 the peninsula. 24 It was a hard sell because the peninsula 25 is very rocky, good for fishing but not terrible good for


1 farming, and there were a number of reserves on southern 2 Georgian Bay and around Lake Simcoe, where the Indian 3 agent, T.G. Anderson travelled and tried to persuade 4 people to move to the Saugeen Peninsula. 5 When it became clear that no one was 6 willing to move to the Saugeen Peninsula except the 7 Saugeen Indians who already lived there, then the 8 government put pressure on my ancestors to surrender and 9 surrender was secured in 1854, which surrender is the 10 subject of ongoing litigation between my community and 11 Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada and Ontario. 12 But, the -- just before the decision to 13 press for this surrender, T.G. Anderson, the Indian 14 agent, made one (1) last trip through his superintendency 15 to various Reserves, calling upon the Chiefs to relocate. 16 And there is a Document number 4000491, where he keeps 17 track of the responses which he receives. 18 So he went to the Rama Indians, those are 19 the people at M'njikaning First Nation, and he asked them 20 whether they were prepared to remove and the Chiefs -- 21 there were two (2) Caribou Chiefs there who responded, 22 "We are not willing to remove from this 23 place. First, it is our home. It was 24 the home of our fathers. Around these 25 waters and on these islands are the


1 graves of our fathers and children and 2 when we die, we wish to buried by the 3 side of them." 4 He also asked the Sandy Island whether 5 they were prepared to move and they also replied, 6 "We have strong objection to going to 7 Owen Sound. We will not leave the 8 burial ground of our children." 9 And, remember that Wawanosh had said he 10 would not leave Sarnia because his relatives were buried 11 there. So this is a continuing response to the 12 government's removal efforts; that it's one (1) thing to 13 ask people to give up their land, to change their 14 lifestyle, to give up hunting and fishing in favour of 15 farming, but they -- they couldn't be persuaded to leave 16 the graves of their -- of their ancestors. 17 And so -- I understand the attachment of 18 aboriginal people, Anishnaabeg people, to lands as also 19 being part and parcel of an attachment of the living to 20 the dead and this very strong sense of obligation that I 21 have been taught the living have to the dead. And that 22 proximity to the graves of ones ancestors, in fact, is 23 one of the most powerful forces in the world view of 24 Anishnaabeg people. 25 So, in the balance of my report I look to


1 burial practices among the Anishnaabeg and also see 2 important connections with totemic identity. 3 Q: So, shall we turn to that? 4 A: All right. I don't have as many 5 pictures for this part of the -- of my report. But my 6 understanding both from what I've been taught as well as 7 from what I've seen in the documentary record is that 8 there is a continuing relationship between the living and 9 the dead and that when relatives die they do not cease to 10 have an attachment with the living and that the living, 11 in fact, have obligations to feed and shelter the dead. 12 And these -- in these -- with this -- with 13 these obligations in mind there are very clear rituals 14 around graves, grave construction, the location of 15 cemeteries, the obligations of people to visit 16 cemeteries, the obligations to feast the dead and to 17 protect and shelter the dead. 18 And, as I said, these are things that I 19 was introduced to at a young age but when I started to do 20 research for my Masters thesis I was struck by how old 21 these traditions are and the continuity of the 22 traditions. 23 Samuel de Champlain was the first European 24 to write about the relationship that Algonquian speaking 25 people had understood existed between the living and the


1 dead. In 1608 he reported that, 2 "They believe in the immortality of 3 souls and say that the dead enjoy 4 happiness in other lands with their 5 relatives and friends who have died." 6 But then he said, 7 "In the case of Chiefs or others having 8 influence, they hold a banquet three 9 (3) times a year and sing and dance 10 upon their grave." 11 So he's one (1) of the first Europeans to 12 witness a feast of the dead and there's a mixed message 13 in -- in his commentary which actually is a little hard 14 to understand for people from a different spiritual 15 tradition. Because on the one (1) hand he's saying the 16 relatives go to another land, and on the other hand he's 17 saying, they visit their graves and feast. 18 And the -- Champlain and all the 19 missionaries who worked in New France came from the 20 Christian tradition that had a strong belief in the 21 unitary soul; that is that their -- humans have a soul 22 and when they die the soul separates from the body and 23 the body is ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and the soul 24 goes off to its reward either in heaven or elsewhere. 25 And so they -- they were particularly


1 curious about the continuing attention that the 2 aboriginal people in the New World, in -- in the Great 3 Lakes region in particular paid to the -- to the dead and 4 caring for the dead. 5 Now, the first description we get of a 6 cemetery, again this is a cemetery, land set aside for 7 the interment of the dead, not -- not simply random 8 burials, but Champlain reports seeing his first cemetery 9 on the Ottawa River, a place called Tessouat Island. 10 And he -- he reports, 11 "As I looked about the island I noticed 12 their cemeteries and was filled with 13 wonder at the sight of the tombs in the 14 form of shrines made of pieces of wood 15 crossed at the top and fixed upright in 16 the ground, three (3) feet apart or 17 thereabouts..." 18 There's a typo there. I'm sorry. 19 "... above the cross pieces they place 20 a large piece of wood and in front 21 another standing upright on which is 22 carved rudely, as one might expect, the 23 face of him or her who was buried 24 there..." 25 Q: Could I just stop you for a moment.


1 You're reading from the top of page 25 of your report? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: Now, Champlain wrote in French and 5 his words were translated into English by Bigger 6 (phonetic) and I'm not entirely satisfied with his 7 translation. 8 He says that, 9 "They've carved the face of him who was 10 buried on the grave post." 11 Champlain doesn't say la visage, the -- 12 for face, he says la figure for form and so my -- I would 13 retranslate to say that he carves the figure or the form 14 of the dead and then it wouldn't surprise me. Although 15 he did not draw the grave post, there are later examples 16 of grave posts where it is the totemic identity that is 17 carved into the grave post. 18 He goes on to talk about other aspects of 19 the burial practice which is that they put up a shield, a 20 sort of -- the handle such as they use; a club, a bow and 21 arrows. 22 "If it is a chief, he will have a bunch 23 of feathers on his head and some other 24 ornament or embellishment. If a child, 25 they gave him a bow and arrow, if a


1 woman or girl a kettle, an earthen pot, 2 a wooden spoon and a paddle. 3 The largest tomb is six (6) or seven 4 (7) feet long and four (4) wide, the 5 others smaller. They are painted 6 yellow and red with varied decorations 7 -- various decorations as fine as the 8 carving." 9 So, these -- these graves are very 10 deliberately constructed. There's evidence of identity 11 of the -- of the deceased and their practice of burying 12 grave goods with the dead is understood -- it was 13 understood that the people would travel along the path of 14 the souls to get the to place where they would then live 15 with their other deceased relatives. 16 So, there is a sense that at least one (1) 17 aspect of the -- the spiritual essence of the deceased 18 does travel and does have a future life in another place 19 and for which life they -- they need their weapons and 20 their -- their tools. 21 But then they continue -- we see in later 22 documents to -- to pay special attention to the grave 23 itself, so this -- this -- this concern that it's not 24 enough simply to bury the people, that they have to be 25 watched for and -- and tended afterwards.


1 And the next part of my report talks about 2 burial and native country. And again the Jesuits were 3 struck by the fact that people didn't bury the dead where 4 they died and there -- there's records that they would, 5 if someone died on a -- on a trading mission or a 6 military endeavour, that they would bring their bodies 7 back to their native country. 8 And I understand this in terms of totemic 9 identity which is that a Beaver person understood him -- 10 was born in Beaver country from the remains of the Great 11 Beaver and that the Beaver people had to be brought back 12 and buried in Beaver country to continue their recycling 13 of -- of souls. 14 We -- we find evidence in the Jesuit 15 relations in 1636 there were Anishnaabeg from Lake 16 Nippissing who spent the winter with the Wendat on 17 southern Georgian Bay and the relation reports that on 18 the 19th of April, -- this is at the top of page 26, on 19 the 19th of April the -- 20 "The Serenians (phonetic) seeing the 21 ice broken and the lakes open, embarked 22 to return to their own country and 23 carried away in seven (7) canoes, 24 seventy (70) of those who had died, 25 while they wintered among the Hurons."


1 So, the death toll was quite staggering 2 but the -- the idea of -- of loading the remains into the 3 canoes and travelling up the -- the eastern coast of 4 Georgian Bay up -- up to the French river was a rather 5 daunting task and it shows the extent to which people 6 felt really very strongly that it was important to bury 7 people in their country of their -- of their birth. 8 Now, we saw earlier on that by the late 9 1640's there was a lot of disruption in settlement 10 patterns, a lot of movement as a result of disease and 11 war and -- but people, whenever they had the chance to 12 return to areas of their ancestors, often -- often 13 referred to the attachment as -- as being -- in terms of 14 their attachment to the graves of their ancestors. 15 There's considerable debate about who are 16 the aboriginal occupants of -- of Montreal. When Jacques 17 Cartier visited it was called Hashalayga (phonetic) and I 18 -- I think there's quite persuasive documentary evidence 19 that the -- the people were Algonquian speaking people. 20 There was a Jesuit father who was 21 stationed at Montreal, Vallamon (phonetic) in the 1640's 22 and -- I'm just trying to see the footnote here for the 23 year. I have to go back to the original document to 24 check that. 25 But -- it's 1646, I'm sorry. He's talking


1 about people who had dwelt at Montreal and withdrew 2 fearing Iroquois aggression but once there was a fort 3 established on the island, then -- then many families 4 just resolved to recover their country. 5 And among those who resettled at Montreal 6 was a very elderly man. He was in 80's. Vallamon 7 doesn't tell us his name or even his totemic identity. 8 But he does recount what he was taught by his mother, the 9 elderly man says: 10 "Here is my country. My mother told me 11 that while we were young the Hurons 12 making war on us drove us from this 13 island. As for me, I wish to be buried 14 in it near my ancestors." 15 So, it was hard to people to leave their 16 native country or their birth country and to leave the 17 graves of the ancestors and there was always a strong 18 pull to go back. 19 Now, these are early records from the 20 French period in the 1630 and '40s; well, Champlain's 21 account starts in 1608. But at the end of the French 22 regime a man named Pouchot who had been in the French 23 military published his memoirs and he wrote about the 24 burial practices of the people in the Great Lakes. 25 And there's an excerpt from his memoirs,


1 also at page 26. He's talking about the burial 2 practices. He says: 3 "When an Indian is dead we hear no cry 4 or plaint in the cabin but they come to 5 make their farewell visit. They bury 6 them with all their finest garments, 7 their arms and a keg of brandy to help 8 them on their journey. They raise over 9 the grave a kind of cabin made of poles 10 in the form of a monument and by its 11 side another great post on which are 12 fixed the family arms. They mark their 13 arms in characters representing the 14 number of scalps and prisoners they 15 have taken. Some nations have the 16 custom of sending the women during the 17 first eight (8) days to build a little 18 fire near the grave and to sit upon 19 their heels remaining there immoveable 20 for a quarter to half an hour at a 21 time. If he dies while hunting, even 22 if it has been three (3) or four (4) 23 months, they will disinter him and 24 carry him in their canoes to bury him 25 in their village. They do the same in


1 regard to their children." 2 So, we see the continuity of burial 3 practices both in terms of the construction of the grave, 4 of the offering of grave goods, of marking their totemic 5 identity on the graves and of returning people to their 6 native land when they -- if they die in another -- 7 another territory. 8 Now, one thing as I said, that the Jesu -- 9 the Jesuits were mystified by is the ongoing care that 10 the aboriginal people took of the graves. And because if 11 they really did believe that the people had travelled to 12 the Land of the Souls, why was it necessary to leave food 13 and other offerings at the -- at the grave. 14 And the first Jesuit to figure out the -- 15 the reason behind these -- these burial practices was 16 Father Brebeuf who was in Huronia in the 18-- sorry the 17 1630's. 18 Now, he's working among the Hurons but 19 there's evidence that the tradition was shared -- this 20 tradition was shared by the Hurons and the Anishnaabeg. 21 So this is Father Brebeuf; it's an excerpt on page 27: 22 "It is amusing to hear them speak of 23 their souls or rather I should say it 24 is a thing quite worthy of compassion 25 to see reasonable men with sentiments


1 so low concerning the essence, an 2 essence so noble and bearing so 3 distinct marks of divinity. They give 4 it different names according to its 5 different conditions or different 6 operations. Insofar as it merely 7 animates the body and gives life they 8 call it ..." 9 And I'm not very good at -- I have no 10 ability at all in fact in Huron but they call it: 11 ... "Khiondhecwi insofar as it is 12 possessed of reason Oki Andaerandi like 13 a demon counterfeiting a demon. In so 14 far as it thinks and deliberates on 15 anything they call it Endionrra and 16 Gonennoncwal in so far as it bear 17 affection to any object. Once it 18 happens that they often say Ondayee 19 Ihaton Onennoncwat and that is 'that is 20 what my heart says to me, that is what 21 my appetite desires'. Then ..." 22 And this is the important part for our 23 purposes: 24 "... then if it is separated from the 25 body they call is Esken and even the


1 bones of the dead atisken. In my 2 opinion, on the false persuasion 3 entertained by them that the soul 4 remains in some way attached to them 5 for some time after death. At least, 6 that it is not far removed from them. 7 They think of the soul as divisible and 8 you would have all the difficulty in 9 the world to make them believe that our 10 soul is entire in all parts of our 11 body." 12 So, this notion of a duality or a 13 divisibility of soul they say contradicts the Christian 14 notion which was that when the person dies the soul 15 separates from the body and goes off to heaven. 16 The Hurons and Anishnaabeg believed that 17 some aspects of the person travel to the land of the 18 souls but that there was a spiritual essence which 19 remained with -- with the -- with the bones and with -- 20 with the remains. 21 Now, Brebeuf clarifies this point in an 22 excerpt, again on page 27, he's coming back from a feast 23 of the dead with a captain, a chief who is very 24 intelligent and who will someday be very influential in 25 the affairs of the country:


1 "I asked them why they called the bones 2 of the dead atisken. He gave me the 3 best explanation he could and I 4 gathered from his conversations that 5 many think we have two (2) souls, both 6 of them being divisible and material 7 and yet both reasonable. The one (1) 8 separates itself from the body at 9 death, yet remains in the cemetery 10 until the Feast of the Dead, after 11 which it either changes into a 12 turtledove or according to the most 13 common belief, it goes away to the 14 Village of Souls. 15 The other is, as it were, bound to 16 the body and informs, so to speak, the 17 corpse. It remains in the grave of the 18 dead after the Feast and never leaves 19 it, unless someone bears it again as a 20 child. He pointed out to me, as proof 21 of this metempsychosis..." 22 Which is the idea of the transmigration of 23 souls as in reincarnation. 24 "...the perfect resemblance some have 25 to persons deceased. A fine philosophy


1 indeed. Such at is it shows why they 2 call the bones of the dead etiskan, the 3 souls." 4 So what we have among the -- the Hurons, 5 then, is the notion that part or some of the spiritual 6 essence travels to the Village of Souls, and another 7 aspect stays with the remains. And again it ties into 8 this notion of recycling of souls which is that the only 9 time the soul would leave the bones is if it was 10 reincarnated into someone else in that -- that community. 11 Now, I think that this notion of a soul of 12 the bones is actually the key to understanding 13 Anishnaabeg burial practises and the reverence with which 14 the remains are treated after death, and the abhorrence 15 of grave disturbances which persists among Anishnaabeg 16 people. 17 We had a burial ground dispute in -- in 18 our territory in Owen Sound in 1992, I think it was, and 19 there was a vigil set up in an area that had been 20 reserved as a burial ground but subsequently sold. And I 21 spent a great deal of time there with Elders from my 22 community and that's when it was first explained to me 23 that there is a spiritual essence with remains -- which 24 remains with the remains and that as Anishnaabeg we have 25 an obligation to protect the remains of our -- of our


1 dead. 2 And so I notice often in -- in the press 3 the media will use the expression, sacred burial ground, 4 and it's actually quite redundant, I mean, if it's a 5 burial ground it's sacred. Hard to think of a non-sacred 6 burial ground, at least from an Aboriginal perspective. 7 Now this diversity of the belief in human 8 souls is shared both, as I said, by the Hurons and the 9 Algonquian speaking peoples. It was first recorded among 10 the Montagnais, who are Algonquian speaking people on the 11 Quebec side -- 12 Q: Side of the -- 13 A: Yes. And Father Le June, who spent 14 one (1) winter among them in 1639, he records in his 15 relation, 16 "They distinguish several souls in one 17 (1) and the same body. An old man told 18 us some time ago that some savages [is 19 the word they translate from savage] 20 have as many as two (2) or three (3) 21 souls; that his own had left him more 22 two (2) years ago -- before to go away 23 with his dead relatives. That he no 24 longer had any but the soul of his own 25 body which would go down into the grave


1 with him. One learns from this that 2 they imagine has a soul of its own, 3 which some call the soul of their 4 nation, and that in addition to this, 5 other come which leave it sooner or 6 later according to their fancy." 7 Now, I was very struck by the designation 8 of this as the soul of the nation, because that's the 9 soul that goes back into the ground, and remember the 10 nation came from the remains of the -- the First Ancestor 11 that gave them their being. 12 And so the beaver -- the Great Beaver 13 died, his remains went into the soil and the humans came 14 from his remains. And there is this idea that the soul 15 of the nation is what is being buried with the remains 16 and it -- and it helps explain for me, at least in the 17 early period, why there was such insistence on burial in 18 native -- in native country. 19 Now, Le June, as I said, also noticed that 20 the people had a different attachment, as it were, to the 21 travelling soul and to the soul that was buried, and that 22 there was some fear of the soul that was moving -- and 23 here English is a little bit awkward because we have the 24 same -- or they're different words in -- in Ojibwe. 25 Tchibai is the soul that travels, and tchibaum, at least


1 I've been taught, is the soul that stays. 2 So after somebody died, the understanding 3 was that the soul that would travel didn't leave right 4 away. And after the funeral sometimes the soul that was 5 going to travel needed to be encouraged to leave and 6 people were afraid if that soul stayed around because 7 they might decide to take other souls with them. 8 And so their -- Le June comments on 9 various strategies that were used by the people to 10 encourage the travelling soul to -- to leave. And he 11 writes about another one (1) of his Fathers who observed 12 these practices. 13 "The same Father seeing some Algonquin 14 -- visibly engaged in striking upon 15 their cabins with sticks, asked them 16 what they were doing. 17 They replied that they were trying to 18 drive away the soul of a dead woman 19 which was prowling around there. It is 20 said that there were some so simple as 21 to stretch nets around their cabins so 22 that the souls of those who pass away 23 at the houses of your neighbours may be 24 caught therein if they wish to enter 25 their dwellings.


1 Others burned some ill smelling thing 2 to turn away the souls by this odour. 3 They even put something with a bad 4 odour upon their heads so that the 5 souls may not come near them. A 6 juggler, -- 7 This is the term that the French use for 8 medicine people, 9 "A juggler one day brandished his 10 javelin in the air imagining that he 11 would frighten the soul which had 12 recently left its own body. 13 They greatly fear that these souls will 14 enter their cabins or will sojourn 15 there. For if they did they would take 16 someone away with them into their 17 country." 18 So that there was a fear of the -- of the 19 travelling soul that -- that it needs to be encouraged to 20 undertake its journey but then there's great affection 21 and concern for the soul that -- that remains and should 22 be cared for by the -- by the living. 23 Peter Jones was a Methodist missionary, 24 his mother was a Mississauga and his father was a -- a 25 Welsh surveyor, Augustus Jones. And he wrote a history


1 of the Ojibwe Indians which was published in 1860. So 2 this is 200 years after Le June's account. And I think 3 there's a -- a -- the next passage which appears at page 4 29 in my report shows remarkable continuity of practices 5 and -- and beliefs. 6 Because Jones is now giving an account of 7 funerals that he witnessed as a child growing up in 8 Mississauga Territory. He says, 9 "In the evening of -- before he was 10 converted to Methodism -- In the 11 evening of the day on which the burial 12 has taken place when it begins to grow 13 dark, the men fire off their guns 14 through the hole left at the top of the 15 wigwam. 16 As soon as this firing ceases, the old 17 women commence knocking and making such 18 a rattling at the door as would 19 frighten away any spirit that would 20 dare hover near. 21 The next ceremony is to cut into narrow 22 strips like ribbon, thin birch bark. 23 These they fold into shapes and hang 24 around inside the wigwam so that the 25 least puff of wind will move them.


1 With such scarecrows as these, what 2 spirit would venture to disturb their 3 slumbers? 4 Lest, this should not prove effectual. 5 They will also frequently take a deer's 6 tail and after burning or singeing off 7 all the hair will rub the necks or 8 faces of the children before they lay 9 down to sleep thinking that the 10 offensive smell will be another 11 preventive to the spirit's entrance. 12 I well remember when I used to be 13 daubed over with this disagreeable 14 fumigation and had great faith in it 15 all. This that the soul lingers about 16 the body a long time before it takes 17 its final departure, they use these 18 means to hasten it away." 19 So Peter Jones experienced this in the 20 early 1800's. The Jesuit relations that I referred to 21 were not published until the 1900's in English so I'm 22 sure he had no access to those accounts and as -- as I 23 said I think a striking resonance in terms of the 24 continuity of these practises. 25 So there's the soul that travels that the


1 people want to encourage to -- to commence its journey 2 and then there is the soul that stays with the remains. 3 And again the early Jesuits were intrigued by the care 4 and concern that the living showed to the graves of the 5 dead. 6 And LeJune writes about observing a feast 7 of the dead and he says, 8 "On the 28th of September," 9 This is in 1635, it's page 29 in my 10 report. 11 "Father Buteux and I found a band of 12 savages who were having a feast near 13 the graves of their deceased relatives. 14 They gave them the best part of the 15 banquet which they threw into the fire. 16 And when they were about to go away, a 17 woman broke some twigs and branches 18 from the trees with which she covered 19 the graves. I asked her why she did 20 this, and she answered that she was 21 sheltering the souls of her dead 22 friends from the heat of the sun which 23 had been very great this autumn. 24 They reason about the souls of men and 25 their necessities as they do about the


1 body. According their doctrines they 2 suppose that our souls have the same 3 needs as our body. We told you 4 repeatedly that the souls are 5 reasonable beings descended into Hell 6 or went up to Heaven. But without 7 giving us any answer she continued to 8 follow the old custom of her 9 ancestors." 10 So the idea that the people when they're 11 buried, they can still feel the heat of the sun, they can 12 feel the cold, they can feel hunger and they need to be 13 feasted and they need to be -- to be cared for. 14 And again, in my community, I've been 15 taught by Elders to put food in the fire to feed our 16 grandparents that have -- that have passed on. People 17 also put tobacco in the fire to give -- give their 18 relatives a smoke. 19 Now, Alexander Henry, remember he was the 20 first Englishman. He travelled up into the Great Lakes. 21 He also observed some burial practices and was a bit 22 bemused by what he saw as the contradiction in the 23 practices of -- of the idea of an afterlife and the idea 24 of people staying -- or the spiritual essence remaining 25 with the graves.


1 So I quote part of his journal at Page 30, 2 "I have frequently inquired into the 3 ideas and opinions of the Indians in 4 regard to futurity and always found 5 that they were somewhat different in 6 different individuals. Some suppose 7 their souls to remain in this world, 8 although invisible to human eye and 9 capable themselves of seeing and 10 hearing their friends and also of 11 assisting them in moments of distress 12 and danger. 13 Others dismiss from the mortal scene 14 the unembodied spirit and send it to a 15 distant world or country in which it 16 receives reward or punishment according 17 to the life which it has led in its 18 prior state. 19 Those who have lived virtuously are 20 transported into a place abounding with 21 every luxury, with deer and all other 22 animals of the woods and water and 23 where the earth produces in their 24 greatest perfection all its sweetest 25 fruits. While on the other hand, those


1 who have violated or neglected the 2 duties of this life are removed to a 3 barren soil where they wander up and 4 down among the rocks and morasses and 5 are stung by gnats as large as 6 pigeons." 7 So I don't actually see the contradiction 8 that Henry sees because there is the travelling soul that 9 goes to the land of the souls and then there's the soul 10 of the bones or the soul of the nation that remains in 11 the territory where it's buried. 12 Now Henry Schoolcraft understood this 13 duality of the soul. Remember, he was the Indian agent 14 in Michigan -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: He was married to a daughter of a 17 Caribou chief, a granddaughter of a Caribou chief, 18 Wabojeeg and in one of his published works, he -- he 19 attempts to explain the connection between soul beliefs 20 and the grave construction practices among the Chippewas. 21 He writes, again this is at Page 30 of my 22 report, 23 "When an Indian corpse is put in a 24 coffin among the tribes of the Lake 25 Algonquins the lid is tied down and not


1 nailed. In depositing it in the grave 2 the rope or string is loosed and the 3 weight of the earth alone relied on to 4 keep it as a fixed position. 5 The reason they give for this is that 6 the soul may have free egress from the 7 body. 8 Over the top of the grave a covering of 9 cedar bark is put to shed the rain. 10 This is roof shaped and the whole 11 structure looks slightly like a house 12 in miniature. It has gable ends. 13 Through one (1) of these, being the 14 head, an aperture is cut," 15 An opening, 16 "On asking a Chippewa why this was done 17 he replied to allow the soul to pass 18 out and in. I thought, I replied, that 19 you believed that the soul went up from 20 the body at the time of death to a land 21 of happiness. How then can it remain 22 in the body? 23 There are two (2) souls, replied the 24 Indian philosopher. 25 How can this be, my friend?


1 It is easily explained, he said, you 2 know that in dreams we pass over wide 3 countries and see hills and lakes and 4 mountains and many seas -- scenes which 5 pass before our eyes and affect us. 6 Yet at the same time, our bodies do not 7 stir and there is a soul left with the 8 body else it would be dead. 9 So you perceive it must be another soul 10 that accompanies us." 11 So what Schoolcraft is speaking to is the 12 idea that part of the soul travels -- the soul that 13 travels in our dreams -- dreams are very important in -- 14 in Anishnaabeg culture, ways of learning things, ways of 15 being taught things. 16 The people believe that when they're 17 dreaming, their soul is actually travelling and that if 18 there was not another soul that remained with the body, 19 then people would die during their dreams. 20 So that -- that's how they understand 21 their relationship between dreaming and the travelling 22 soul and the soul that stays with the -- with the body. 23 Now it's important, I think, that he says 24 the -- the roof of the coffin is not nailed down because 25 there is this idea that the soul is in the bones, but it


1 does come and go in the vicinity of the grave. 2 And today, on our Reserve, when people are 3 buried, we -- we don't use the concrete -- I don't know 4 what they're called. Often in modern burials coffins are 5 encased in -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- to concrete -- 8 Q: Yes, yes. 9 A: That's -- that's not done on our 10 reserve because that would be trapping the soul and I've 11 been to funerals of traditional Elders where their coffin 12 has been modified so that there's a hole at the head and 13 again it's been explained that that's so the soul can 14 come in and -- and out. 15 Now, Peter Jones, our Methodist 16 Mississauga Missionary, also wrote about burials at the 17 River Thames, actually, there was a traditional Chief 18 Odahmekoo, who died and Peter Jones attended the funeral. 19 And in fact, this is a sketch that he made on the screen 20 behind me, a sketch that Peter Jones made of the burial 21 ground. He called it the Heathen burial ground; it was 22 the burial ground of the non-Christians. 23 In the Christian burial grounds, 24 eventually people were buried, and simply a cross or a 25 marker was put up, but in the traditional burial grounds,


1 these grave construction, these houses continued to be 2 made. Often they were fenced, and you will see the -- 3 the -- the opening at the front of the grave, which 4 demonstrates the belief of -- of the soul that remains 5 with the body, coming and -- and going. 6 So, Peter Jones writes, and this is at the 7 top of page 31, 8 "I was present at the burial of a old 9 pagan Chief by the name of Odahmekoo, 10 of Muncey Town. We had a coffin made 11 for him, which was presented to his 12 relatives. But before they placed the 13 body in it, they bored several holes at 14 the head, in order, as they supposed, 15 to enable the soul to go in and out at 16 pleasure." 17 So the coffin is modified, and then the 18 grave house is also modified, or is also built in a way 19 that -- that allows the -- the movement of the soul. And 20 then people leave grave offerings at -- at the grave, 21 with the understanding that -- that they will be -- to 22 assist the deceased. 23 Now, Henry Schoolcraft is a -- provided a 24 great deal of information about the symbolic literacy of 25 the Chippewa people. Remember we started with this --


1 the reproduction of the symbolic petition, -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- at the beginning. He also 4 provides some of the earliest drawings of -- of grave 5 posts and we have six (6) of them here on this slide. 6 And the reason I'm interested in the -- in the grave 7 posts, part of the reason I'm interested in the grave 8 posts, is that I think there is the connection between 9 totemic identity and the soul that remains with the body. 10 Because what happens in these grave posts is the personal 11 name, Wabojeeg, does not appear on the grave post. 12 The understanding is that Wabojeeg, 13 recognizable as Wabojeeg, would leave to go to the land 14 of the souls, where he would spend the afterlife with his 15 relatives. 16 But there's an aspect of Wabojeeg which 17 stays and gets buried and -- and that's his, I think, his 18 totemic identity. Because the grave post shows the 19 dodaims of the individual Chiefs. So Wabojeeg is the -- 20 his grave post is the one (1) on the top left hand side. 21 Q: On the left-hand side as you're 22 looking it, yes. 23 A: Yes, of the slide, and it's a 24 caribou, and it's an inverted caribou. These are the -- 25 it's consistent practice that when the -- when the person


1 is deceased, their dodaim is shown upside down. 2 And there -- there are other grave posts. 3 And Schoolcraft gives a very detailed explanation of all 4 -- all these grave posts and that appears, I won't go 5 into it now, but, it's in the document collection, if 6 people are interested. I think the date would be 1861. 7 So, these grave marks then, and 8 Schoolcraft's description of them, makes it clear, I 9 think that totemic identity persists after death. And 10 it's the identity that's relative to their remains that 11 are buried and that people have the obligation, then, to 12 care for. 13 He writes about the -- the record on 14 Wabojeeg's grave post, and I've excerpted part of that at 15 page thirty-one (31), 16 "He was of the family or clan of the 17 Addik or American Reindeer. This fact 18 is symbolized by the figure of the 19 deer. The reverse position denotes 20 death. His personal name, which was 21 the White Fisher, is not noticed. The 22 seven (7) transverse marks on the left 23 denote that he had led seven (7) more 24 parties. The three (3) perpendicular 25 lines below the dodaim, represent three


1 (3) wounds received in battle. The 2 figure of a moose's head relate to a 3 desperate conflict with an enraged 4 animal of this kind. The symbols of 5 the arrow and pipe, are drawn to 6 indicate his influence in war and 7 peace." 8 So, again, it's -- his personal name is 9 not what's considered relevant, it's -- it's his totemic 10 identity, and the idea that it's -- it's Wabojeeg or part 11 -- some aspect of Wabojeeg travels to the lands of the 12 souls, but there's also a part of his spiritual essence 13 which remains with his remains, and gets buried, and the 14 people have a continuing obligation to tend and care for. 15 Now, Schoolcraft also provides the word 16 for grave post and he said it's -- he calls it 17 Adjedatigwun and he says that, 18 "It's given by the expression death- 19 stick. It's derived from the verb 20 adjidj, to reverse, meaning the totem 21 of the person interred is reversed. As 22 this totem is the symbol of the person 23 the ideographic import is that this 24 deceased has been returned to the 25 earth. And so the grave post itself


1 ..." 2 I'm sorry, I'm done the quote but my 3 understanding is then that the person -- the -- the -- 4 the totemic identity of -- of the person is returned to 5 the earth that it's a concept of returning which I 6 understand also to be involved in the process of 7 recycling and continuing obligations -- continuing 8 presence of our ancestors in the territory and a 9 continuing obligation to care for them, their graves and 10 the -- and the territory. 11 Now, as I said, the early recorders 12 noticed a great reverence for the graves of ancestors but 13 unfortunately the -- some of the settlers, at least, did 14 not share this reverence for burials and as early as 1797 15 the Colonial Government found itself in some difficulty 16 because of the opposing views European Christian views 17 and Anishnaabeg views around the dead and how the graves 18 of the dead are to be treated. 19 In 1797 there was a Mississauga Chief 20 Wabbakenais (phonetic) who was killed by a British 21 soldier near his settlement at the Credit River. And 22 shortly after his death he was buried. But his family 23 and his community expected that there would be an 24 investigation into his death and that somebody would be 25 charged with his killing.


1 And the Colonial Government said that they 2 were anxious, in fact, to proceed and to investigate his 3 death but they said that in order to do so they would 4 have to have a coroner's inquest and that the -- the 5 deceased would have to be disinterred. 6 And I'm trying to find my reference to it. 7 It -- it shows up at Document 4000450 and actually dates 8 from 1796, September 26th. And so the Chief -- the Chief 9 is dead. His people are distraught. They expect some 10 justice for his death, but in order to get the justice 11 they're being told that they have to break one (1) of 12 their most important rules, which is not to disturb the 13 dead. 14 And so they attend a council at Niagara 15 and they speak to the President Peter Russell who's the 16 president of the executive council. By this time 17 Governor Simcoe has -- Lieutenant Governor Simcoe has 18 left Upper Canada so Peter Russell's in charge. 19 And the speech at page 9184, they speak to 20 the -- the concern about having to disinter Wabbakenais 21 and Wabanep who is the chief in Wabbakenais' place says, 22 "Father, the dead man is in the ground. 23 We would not wish to have the body dug 24 out of it. He is now in the ground. 25 He will never be able to rise again or


1 lift his knife. The Great Spirit above 2 has placed him in the ground. He might 3 be displeased were he removed." 4 And so the -- the community refuses to 5 disturb the grave and there is no prosecution for -- for 6 the death of Wabbakenais. 7 Now, this reverence for the graves and the 8 refusal to disturb graves, as I said, was not necessarily 9 shared by the newcomers and, in fact, in 1797 Russell had 10 to issue a proclamation to protect Mississauga graves. 11 This shows up at Document 4000451. It's 12 dated December 14th and the proclamation, I have a 13 typeset transcript of it from the correspondence of the 14 Honourable Peter Russell, Volume 2, page 41. 15 And it's a proclamation to protect the 16 fishing places and the burying grounds of the 17 Mississaugas, 18 "Whereas many heavy and grievous 19 complaints have of late been made by 20 the Mississauga Indians of depredations 21 committed by some of His Majesty's 22 subjects and others upon their 23 fisheries and their burial places and 24 of other annoyances suffered by them by 25 uncivil treatment in violation of their


1 friendship existing between His Majesty 2 and the Mississauga Indians as well as 3 in violation of decency and good order. 4 Be it known, therefore, that if any 5 complaint shall hereafter be made of 6 injuries done to the fisheries and to 7 the burial places of the said Indians 8 or either of them, and the persons can 9 be ascertained who misbehaved himself 10 or themselves in manner aforesaid, such 11 person or persons shall be proceeded 12 against with the utmost severity and a 13 proper example made of any herein 14 offending." 15 So, the fact that this is one (1) of the 16 first legislative acts that the Government has to 17 undertake to prevent their own subjects from disturbing 18 the burials of the Mississaugas shows that this 19 unfortunately has -- has been a problem from the earliest 20 settlement of -- of the Great Lakes region. 21 I haven't encountered any documents of 22 people being prosecuted as a -- as a result of that 23 proclamation. 24 Sir Francis Bond Head was Lieutenant 25 Governor in 1836 and he travelled to Manitoulin Island


1 where he managed to persuade people to sign treaties that 2 they weren't expecting to be presented with. 3 But on his way back he was travelling 4 through the number of islands on the north shore of -- of 5 Georgian Bay and he -- he wrote about stopping on one (1) 6 island and encountering a burial and I'm trying to find 7 my notes where it -- sorry. 8 Remember, Bond Head was the Lieutenant 9 Governor who wrote about the wampum. He understood the 10 importance of the wampum and the inviolability of -- of 11 wampum belts. And he also seemed to understand the 12 inviolability of Indian graves. 13 If you go to Document 4000486 he published 14 a -- a manuscript entitled 'The Emigrant', where he 15 talked about his experiences as Lieutenant Governor of 16 Upper Canada. And at page 133 he talks about encountering 17 burial on this island. He says: 18 "An uninhabited island has always, in 19 my mind, possessed undescribable charms 20 and accordingly while luncheon was 21 preparing constantly changing my mind, 22 like an ant on its hillock, I rambled 23 about in all directions until on one of 24 the most secluded parts of the island I 25 came unexpectedly to the grave of one


1 of the red aborigines of the land. It 2 was composed of flat stones piled in 3 the shape of a coffin upon the clean 4 granite rock. 5 Within this quiet cell some Indians had 6 deposited their departed comrade and 7 although our relative situations were 8 different inasmuch as I was living and 9 he dead, I felt as I respectfully stood 10 at his feet that in the chancery of 11 heaven his title to the bare rock on 12 which he lay was better than mine to 13 the soil on which I stood. 14 And I might have carried my reflections 15 farther had not one of my companions 16 interrupted them by exclaiming to me, 17 that the countenance in which the 18 sentiment of joy and hunger appeared 19 indissolubly united, "The fish is quite 20 ready." 21 I will, therefore, en-route towards the 22 canoes only observe as a remarkable 23 instance of the unwritten laws of 24 honour which govern the Indians, that 25 in these graves there are invariably


1 deposited by their friends, powder, 2 shot and other implements to enable the 3 departed warrior to hunt for game so 4 soon as the Great Spirit shall bid him 5 arise. 6 And that although there are neither 7 bars nor bolts nor sentinels to guard 8 this property, it remains by the side 9 of its owners inviolable and 10 unviolated." 11 So, he understands that these graves are 12 to be respected and that they're not to be disturbed or 13 the -- or the grave goods removed. 14 But he seemed to be somewhat of a -- of an 15 exception. There -- the last document I would like to 16 refer you to is one by T.G. Anderson that dates from the 17 1830's. By this time Anderson is the Indian agent in 18 Penatanguishene and -- it'll take -- I'm sorry, it'll 19 take me a moment to find the document reference. 20 Q: It's at -- I think it's 4000467 at 21 Tab 13 of the -- 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: -- document -- 24 A: Oh yes, thank you. 25 Q: -- brief. Dated --


1 A: Yeah. Okay. This, there was a 2 report made in Penatanguishene, there were Reserves in 3 that area, Chippewa Reserves in that area. And there was 4 a report that a medical doctor, a surgeon, Paul Darling 5 was accused of having disinterred various graves for the 6 purposes of dissection. 7 And this was terribly disturbing to the 8 people and Anderson understood the severity of the -- of 9 the offence and called a Commission of Inquiry to 10 consider the evidence against the grave disturbers. 11 And so the -- the proceedings actually go 12 on for quite a while. There's one leader, Big Shilling 13 and he was asked to relate what he knows on the subject 14 and he says: 15 "My daughter --" 16 Sorry, I'm having trouble. 17 "-- and his wife returning from fishing 18 saw the graves in question and was 19 crying very much about it. On hearing 20 this my heart was very sore and I 21 wished my Head Chief to be at home to 22 relieve my distress. 23 I then thought of sending for Captain 24 Anderson that he might tell us what to 25 do. When I found that he did not come,


1 I thought of sending to inform our 2 Father at York. 3 I appointed Thomas Shilling and Peter 4 Cut Nose and I told them to say, tell 5 us Father for what reason the white 6 people have dug up our dead and what 7 should we do to have our hearts made 8 content." 9 There were other witnesses who gave 10 evidence and -- and some of the most damning evidence 11 against Dr. Darling was that he had the silver broaches 12 of some of the people who had been buried in his 13 possession and they could be identified. 14 And so Dr. Darling was forced actually to 15 resign his appointment as medical officer. The document 16 at page 400/468, he writes to resign his post. He does 17 end up however being a doctor at Sault St. Marie a few 18 years later. 19 But Sir Bond -- Sir Francis Bond Head and 20 T.G. Anderson were -- were capable of understanding this 21 reverence and these laws of inviolability and Anderson 22 for his part did -- did take action against that 23 disturbance. And in my experience the propensity for 24 people to disturb marked graves, to remove the markings 25 of graves, to treat the remains of aboriginal people as


1 curiosities, to have -- I can't tell -- well I can tell 2 you at least four (4) -- remains of at least four (4) 3 individuals who were in the Bruce County Museum until 4 such time as they were re-patrioted through efforts of 5 our community. 6 We -- we recovered remains from the Grey 7 County Museum, we've been trying to recover remains that 8 went to the Ontario Archaeological Museum in 1902. But 9 certainly in -- in my own territory there are too many 10 occasions to recount in any detail of -- of known graves 11 being disturbed of grave markers being removed of graves 12 being desecrated and in my experience the -- there's 13 nothing that is so troubling to a community. 14 We've been in land claims negotiations for 15 decades without taking matters into our own hands in 16 terms of -- of direct action but when we uncovered the 17 evidence of the disturbance of the burials in Owen Sound 18 which were reserved, people took direct -- direct action. 19 That's the one thing people in my experience feel most 20 strongly about is the obligation to protect the remains 21 of our ancestors from interference. 22 Q: Thank you, very much. And if I could 23 just ask you one last questions, the last slide -- 24 A: Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. Yes. 25 Q: -- can you tell us where that came


1 from. 2 A: Yes, yes. Paul Kane was an artist 3 who travelled through the Great Lakes and out west in the 4 early 1840's. He stopped at Walpole Island and at 5 Sarnia, at Saugeen, upon on Manitoulin Island. This is a 6 sketch of his from a sketch book and he doesn't provide 7 the precise location but I'm prepared to express the view 8 that's it's a Anishnaabeg grave. 9 You'll see I think the village in the 10 distance that the -- the houses of the people and again 11 this -- this concern to live and stay close to the 12 vicinity of the deceased. It has a grave construction 13 which I think is quite close to that described by 14 Champlain in his earliest records. 15 And you'll notice at the back of the grave 16 a vertical post. It's not terribly clear in the slide 17 but there are engravings on that post and I would suggest 18 they're -- they're totemic engravings. 19 And so, I thought that this would be a 20 nice slide to end with because it is a very peaceful 21 scene and sometimes I think people think that our graves 22 weren't well marked and that people can't help it if they 23 stumble upon them and build their houses or highways. 24 But -- but -- but the graves were well 25 marked and if they later become hard to -- to see it's


1 because those markings have been disturbed. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 3 Professor Johnston. Those are my questions, 4 Commissioner. And the documents we'll deal with tomorrow 5 morning. The few extra documents that are being copied. 6 Oh, we've got them here. 7 What perhaps I'll do is if we could add 8 the documents -- the two (2) documents which -- one (1) 9 of which is the transcript of Articles of a Provisional 10 Agreement dated March 30th, 1819 with a sketch on the 11 back as the next document in Exhibit 2 which is the 12 documents -- the book, it'll go, again, behind Tab 20. 13 And I will provide copies to My Friends. 14 As well, there is a seven (7) page document entitled 15 "Surrenders" that is typescript, some of which were 16 referred to by Professor Johnston and it would still, I'd 17 suggest, we just fit behind Tab 20 as well and I'll 18 provide My Friends copies of these documents at the end 19 of the day. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much, Mr. Millar. 22 Thank you, very much, Professor Johnston. 23 You've provided us with two (2) days of very interesting, 24 educational and informative evidence. Thank you very 25 much.


1 Do any of the parties out there wish to 2 cross-examine Professor Johnston? Would you give me some 3 indication of what the numbers are? One (1), two (2), 4 any others? Just try to get a reading of time. There's 5 at least three (3) parties that wish to cross-examine. 6 I presume there hasn't been any discussion 7 regarding order or -- or of cross-examination. If there 8 are only three (3) of you it isn't -- it isn't too 9 difficult. Have you given any thought to how long you 10 might be so we can gauge ourselves whether we should 11 begin right now or how to proceed? 12 Mr. Klippenstein, perhaps you would give 13 me some indication of how long you think you might be on 14 cross-examination? 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 16 think I might be in the order of three-quarters of an 17 hour to an hour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 That's fine. And Mr. Rosenthal, how long might you be? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would estimate 21 approximately an hour and a half, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hour and a 23 half, okay. And Mr. Eyolfson, how long do you anticipate 24 you might be? 25 MR. BRAIN EYOLFSON: Maybe at the most,


1 half an hour depending on whether or not other questions 2 answer my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 4 okay, Professor Johnston, to begin right now or would you 5 prefer that we adjourn and start in the morning? We 6 could go until at least five o'clock? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's fine, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 9 right with you? Well, why don't we begin now. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I thought I'd 11 better stand up, sir. I might have, while it's not 12 cross-examination in the traditional sense, but a few 13 questions to expand on a couple of areas; possibly half 14 an hour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 16 That's fine. Thank you very kindly. We're obviously 17 going -- that's Mr. Henderson. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That was Mr. 19 Henderson, William Henderson. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 21 I think it's -- it's approximately twenty (20) to 5:00. 22 I think we can at least use the time that we have left. 23 Professor Johnston says she's all right. 24 Mr. Klippenstein, why don't you start? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 4 Commissioner. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: Professor Johnston, I would like to 8 begin by thanking you on behalf of the Dudley George 9 Estate and Family Group for your paper and your 10 presentation which I know Sam George and other members of 11 the family found very informative and touching in some 12 ways, and troubling in others. 13 I would propose to ask you some questions 14 in a number of areas and I'll be asking you to take 15 advantage of your historical perspective and knowledge as 16 well as your legal knowledge and perspective and ask you 17 to move some of your -- some of the picture more recent 18 in time. 19 I believe your paper stretches to 20 approximately the middle of the 1800s and I'll ask you to 21 apply some of the same perspectives that you brought to 22 that to some periods after that. 23 I'll be asking you to give us a little bit 24 of historical context about what happened in 1867 when, 25 through Confederation, the country of Canada was


1 superimposed, if you will, on the -- the Treaties, for 2 instance. 3 And also then ask some questions 4 pertaining to how that context pertains to the actual 5 lands that became Ipperwash Provincial Park. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 7 minute, Mr. Klippenstein. Just one (1) sec. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, Mr. 9 Klippenstein. It might be that this witness was asked to 10 prepare a report up to about 1840. I know Ms. Holmes has 11 her report -- we don't know what the questions are, so 12 it's a little hard in a vacuum. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, 14 right. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But Ms. Holmes has 16 dealt with the -- the period of time -- there's a certain 17 amount of overlapping between Ms. Holmes' report and 18 Professor Johnston's report, but Ms. Holmes goes beyond-- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She picks up 20 the story where -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, and some of the 22 periods of time that Mr. Klippenstein is concerned about 23 is -- really covered by Ms. Holmes' report. 24 But having said that, we don't know yet 25 what his questions are but I just wanted to let him know


1 that these periods of time will be covered by Ms. Holmes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 Thank you very much. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. 5 Millar. The reason I thought some of the questions might 6 also be helpfully directed to Professor Johnston is that 7 when one reviews her CV, Professor Johnson has also a 8 very broad historic -- a legal background from her 9 teaching that might provide an additional important 10 perspective and are aware of -- of Ms. Holmes' coverage 11 but I thought there might be some benefit here. 12 If there's some problems with that, 13 Commissioner, if you could alert me as I go along, that 14 would be appreciated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's 16 proceed. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 19 Q: Professor Johnston, you've taken us 20 through the history before and after of Treaty 29 of 1827 21 and I'd like to just begin by focussing on the words of 22 that treaty that described the effect of that treaty on 23 the -- on the lands that are being protected for the 24 native people. 25 I believe that's Document 4000023 and I'll


1 just read the -- the one (1) phrase that you probably are 2 very familiar with. It says that some of the lands are 3 expressly reserved, quote, 4 "To the said nation of Indians and 5 their posterity at all times hereafter 6 for their own exclusive use and 7 enjoyment." 8 I take it those words are familiar to you 9 by now? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the reason I want to start out 12 with those is because as I understand it, the lands 13 reserved to natives by that wording include the lands 14 which later became Ipperwash Provincial Park where Dudley 15 George was protesting when he was killed. 16 Am I right in understanding that those 17 words covered that land? In other words -- 18 A: If you can -- those words covered the 19 Reserves which were protected by Treaty 29 and there were 20 two (2) Reserves on the shore of Lake Huron which were at 21 Cape Ippewash and at the mouth of the Sable River. 22 I can't attest to whether the location of 23 Ipperwash Provincial Park is within those boundaries. I 24 expect you'll see evidence of that tomorrow. But the -- 25 the reserve is preserved for their posterity; that's


1 right. The present day signatories in 1827 and then 2 posterity. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. And I'll -- I'll 4 see if -- if there's any need to address that again 5 later. But, to go back to what those words mean -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- would you say -- is it fair to 8 characterize that those words are a guarantee by the 9 Crown of control and occupation of those lands by native 10 peoples in perpetuity? 11 A: I think the reference to posterity is 12 -- is perpetual. People hoped -- at least, the 13 aboriginal people hoped that they would continue to have 14 posterity. They -- the terminology used that was 15 exclusive use and occupation -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- and those are terms that speak, I 18 think, to a beneficial interest, at least as it's been 19 determined by the courts, that communities have in -- in 20 their reserve lands. 21 Q: I would like to then follow just a 22 little bit after the period you covered because the lands 23 that are protected by the treaty are affected by a change 24 that was brought about by the Confederation of Canada in 25 1867 and a change in how the Crown perceives itself, if


1 you will. 2 And I wonder if your knowledge could just 3 help us with that because, again, if it -- if it affects 4 how the guaranteed lands were affected later by 5 surrenders, for example, we want to be clear about that. 6 Is it fair to say that in 1867 when the 7 various jurisdictions in British North America moved 8 towards a new country of Canada, the approach they 9 adopted was to divide the Crown into two (2) spheres, one 10 (1) a provincial sphere and one (1) a federal sphere and 11 we still find that structure with us today here in 12 Canada; is that fair? 13 A: The -- 14 Q: Now, that is from a non-native 15 perspective when I say that? 16 A: And -- and there is some dispute 17 about whether the unitarian nature of the Crown was, in 18 fact, divided at -- at Confederation. There's only one 19 (1) Queen and there's the Queen in Right of Ontario and 20 the Queen in Right of Canada and the Provincial Governor, 21 the Queen in Right Ontario was left with certain 22 jurisdictions of Her Majesty and the Federal Government 23 with other jurisdictions of Her Majesty. So it's my 24 opinion that the unity of the Crown survived 25 Confederation but by the -- closer to the turn of the


1 century into the 20th Century that there came to be more 2 of a functional division. 3 The -- at Confederation what happened, as 4 I understand it, is that there were five (5) colonies, 5 Quebec, Canada East, Canada West, Nova Scotia, New 6 Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. They were each 7 individual colonies and the officials could exercise all 8 the powers of Her Majesty. 9 And when they came together then they 10 divided some of those jurisdictions as between the 11 Provincial Government and the Federal Government. But 12 the Crown, in my understanding was still unitary. 13 Q: That's a useful way to look at it, 14 thank you. And I'd like to just look at three (3) 15 aspects that flow from that, specifically of relevance to 16 the Treaty protection that we looked at and that 17 continues during this period. 18 The first is the -- the issue of land 19 ownership and am I right in understanding from the non- 20 native perspective -- from the non-native legal system 21 that ownership of Crown lands was put into the provincial 22 sphere so that the Province owned the land; is that 23 oversimplification generally right? 24 A: It's a bit oversimplified. 25 Q: I'll admit that.


1 A: There are sections -- the Competition 2 Act is what divided the jurisdictional authority as 3 between the Federal Government and the Provincial 4 Governments. Section 91 enumerated all the federal 5 powers and then they had a residual clause for peace, 6 order and good government. 7 And Section 92 enumerated the provincial 8 powers. And their -- the Provincial Government did under 9 Section 92 -- I don't have the BNA Act in front of me. 10 But they did get title to public lands. 11 But there were lands in -- in Canada by 12 that time to which they didn't get title. There were 13 federal lands, military lands, ordnance lands, so they -- 14 they got -- the lands that -- the lands that belonged to 15 the Colony of Upper Canada became the property of 16 Ontario. 17 But not all lands in Upper Canada belonged 18 to the Colony of Upper Canada. 19 Q: I don't mean to -- to lose sight of 20 those necessary complications, but from the point of view 21 of land ownership, generally speaking, the Province owned 22 the land? 23 A: Public lands were vested in the 24 province by virtue of 92 -- I can't remember the number- 25 Q: Five (5), I think sub five (5)?


1 A: Okay. But there was 91 -- Section 2 91(24) which said Indians and lands reserved for Indians 3 are vested in Her Majesty. So federal ordnance lands, 4 that is military lands remained in the Federal Government 5 as did, from the Federal Government's perspective Indian 6 land. 7 Q: That was my second and third points. 8 If -- if the first category is that the public lands 9 generally became owned by the Province, the second 10 question about jurisdiction, in other words, legislative 11 power to make laws, was divided up between the Province 12 and the Federal Government and that the Province could 13 pass laws in relations to some areas and the Federal 14 Government could pass laws in relation to other areas? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: That's correct? And then Indians and 17 lands that were reserved for Indians or guaranteed to 18 Indians by treaty were one (1) of the areas that were put 19 into the federal category; again, this is all from the 20 non-native point of view here? 21 A: Yes. There were no aboriginal 22 participants at the Confederation debates. 23 Q: That's true. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I wonder -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr.


1 Millar...? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Commissioner, if My 3 Friend has a copy of the BNA Act here so that Ms. -- 4 Professor Johnston might have the opportunity to look at 5 it. 6 It's a little difficult for even the best 7 witness to remember all of the sections and the 8 intricacies of the BNA without -- and now the 9 Constitution Act without having it in front of them and I 10 would think that -- I would ask Mr. Klippenstein to 11 provide her with a copy of the act. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 13 a copy with you, Mr. Klippenstein? 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I don't have one 15 (1) handy and I wasn't intended in -- to get into any 16 complications. Let me ask the next question and if there 17 is any problems, we can -- we can do that. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would ask that -- I 19 just -- I don't want to be difficult but I think it's 20 only fair to the witness if he's going to ask her about 21 the Constitution Act that we have a copy of the 22 Constitution Act so that she can look at it. 23 And it's ten (10) to 5:00 and I would 24 suggest that it would be appropriate for Mr. Klippenstein 25 to obtain a copy of the Act and Ms. -- and Professor


1 Johnston can look at it in the morning and -- before we 2 begin the examination in the morning. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 4 right with you, Mr. Klippenstein? I think at ten (10) to 5 5:00 if we're going to get into any questions on the 6 constitution, I think it makes sense to adjourn now, have 7 a copy of the Act available and begin in the morning. 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I didn't expect 9 this to be a problem, but I can certainly do that. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 So we have some other cross-examiners who will begin in 12 the morning. Yes, Mr. Millar...? 13 14 (WITNESS RETIRES) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I suggest that we do 17 that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 19 that's a good idea. It's a long day and you're obviously 20 tired and you should be. I think that we will adjourn 21 now and begin again at ten o'clock in the morning; is 22 that right? Is that the time that we're agreed to begin? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We adjourn 25 from now until ten o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you


1 very much. 2 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 3 public Inquiry is adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 4 July 15th at 10:00 a.m. 5 6 --- Upon adjourning at 4:50 p.m. 7 8 9 10 Certified Correct, 11 12 13 14 15 ____________________ 16 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25