11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 31st, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 Peter West ) (np) 22 23 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 24 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 25 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Ian McGilp ) Ontario Provincial 4 Annie Leeks ) Police Association & 5 K. Deane 6 7 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 8 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 9 Julian Roy ) (np) 10 Clem Nabigon ) 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 15 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 16 Matthew Horner ) (np) 17 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 18 19 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 20 Craig Mills ) 21 22 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 23 Anna Perschy ) (np) 24 Melissa Panjer ) 25 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 5 GINA DAWN GEORGE, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 7 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 150 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 153 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 161 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 194 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 200 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 203 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 207 15 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Donald Worme 212 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 214 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 10:54 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in sessions. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I apologize to you and 11 to everyone for the short delay. We had some 12 administrative matters that had to be dealt with. The -- 13 I just wanted to tell everyone what the outline for this 14 week is. 15 The witnesses this week will be -- 16 starting with Gina George who's here this morning and 17 then Glenn George and Carolyn George and Hank Veens 18 assuming -- depending on how long everyone takes with 19 respect to each witness. We will sit today until five 20 o'clock and break at probably one -- around one o'clock 21 for the lunch break. 22 Tomorrow and Wednesday we'll sit from 9:00 23 to 4:30 and for those planning on these things, your 24 lunch break will start at 12:30 and then on Thursday 25 we'll be from 9:00 to 3:30. Thank you.
71 Mr. Worme is going to deal with our first 2 witness. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 morning, Mr. Worme. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 6 Commissioner. The Commission calls as the next witness, 7 Ms. Gina George and she will be sworn by the alternate 8 oath, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. George, would you 10 tell us your name in full, please. 11 THE WITNESS: Gina Dawn George. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 13 14 GINA DAWN GEORGE, Sworn: 15 16 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Mrs. George, you were married to 18 Roderick George also known sometimes as Judas? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And can you tell us when you 21 were -- when you were married? 22 A: Good question. 1984, March 2nd. 23 Q: Okay. And your date of birth and I 24 know that this is probably not -- not very nice of me but 25 your date of birth is March 23rd, 1958; that's correct is
81 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Your parents and I understand your -- 4 your mother had just passed away very shortly. Your 5 mother was Dorothy Shawnoo? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your father was Leo Stinson? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Right. And I understand your father 10 was from the Rama First Nation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I understand that your stepfather 13 is Norman Shawnoo and he was a former chief in fact of 14 Kettle Point -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- of Kettle and Stony Point First 17 Nation? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Your maternal grandparents 20 are Elmer and Emma Plain? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And your maternal great grandmother 23 and great great grandmothers, in fact, were both from 24 Stoney Point? 25 A: Yes.
91 Q: Your paternal grandmother was Gladys 2 Stinson? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And your great 5 grandmother, as I understand, Mrs. George, was born in 6 Kettle Point? 7 A: My great grandmother? 8 Q: Your great -- great grandmother? Is 9 that right? 10 A: My great grandmother was -- you've 11 got me mixed up now -- my great grandmother was born in 12 Stoney Point and my great great grandmother came to -- 13 came to Stoney Point from Wisconsin. 14 Q: Okay. Your grandmother was born in 15 Kettle Point, though, after the move in 1942. 16 A: No -- actually, no. My grandmother 17 was born in Kettle Point, but it was before 1942. My 18 grandmother was born in 1917. 19 Q: I see. You know something about the 20 1942 appropriation of the Stoney Point lands? 21 A: Not a whole lot. It was a -- my 22 grandmother really never talked about it too much. She - 23 - I don't know, maybe it was something that they really 24 didn't want to speak about. I didn't hear a whole lot of 25 -- of it from my grandmother.
101 Q: I see. Is there anything that you 2 did hear from your grandmother about that, that you can 3 share with us today? 4 A: No, just -- she was -- I think she 5 was very bitter about what had taken place. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And she sometimes told -- told us 8 that if we ever got married and married somebody from 9 Kettle Point, that would be a very -- she -- she didn't 10 like living there, I guess. 11 That's what I got from it, is that she -- 12 she felt very bitter about being there and said it was 13 kind of a hardship for, maybe her mother and others. 14 Q: Of having to move to the Kettle Point 15 community? Is that -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Yes. That's what I got from that. 19 Q: Was it also the case, Mrs. George, 20 that your grandmother had subsequently then moved into 21 the -- the Sarnia area? 22 A: Well, she married very young, married 23 my grandfather, and that's how she became a member of the 24 Omjinan (phonetic) First Nation. 25 Q: And that's also known as Sarnia, is
111 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Together with Roderick, 4 you have a number of children, one (1) of whom has 5 testified here, that being Nicholas Cotrelle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he's sometimes known as "Uga"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. You have other children 10 as well. Could you tell us about -- about them, Mrs. 11 George? 12 A: Yeah. My husband actually has two 13 (2) daughters from a previous marriage and then we have 14 Charmin (phonetic) and then there's Nicholas. We have 15 Melanie, Amanda and Stephanie. 16 Q: Okay. And I understand that in 1995, 17 Mrs. George, you were working full-time at the Kettle 18 Point First Nation delivering home -- homemaking 19 services? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what exactly did that entail by 22 way of these services? What -- what was your job? 23 A: Going into -- I actually worked in 24 the same home for thirteen (13) years and it was taking 25 care of two (2) ladies who were disabled, were not able
121 to -- to fulfill their -- anybody's activities of daily 2 living, so it was helping them with meals, homemaking, 3 like home -- housekeeping, personal care. 4 Q: You had some kind of training for 5 that, I take it, and as well I understood you also had 6 some basic first aid sort of training -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- so that you might assist these 9 people in -- in times of that sort of need? 10 A: Yes. I took a Health Care Aide 11 course. That was based on caring for older people, the 12 study of gerontology and that also, with homemaking 13 services, you were required to have first aid and CPR 14 renewed regularly. 15 Q: Where did you take that training and 16 when did you take that training, if you can tell us? 17 A: I think it was 1990 or 1991 and I 18 actually took it -- Lambton College offered it and 19 brought it to Kettle Point. So part of it was there and 20 then my clinical training took me to Petrolia to the 21 Twilight Haven Nursing Home. 22 Q: And while we're on the topic of your 23 education, you are presently enrolled at the University 24 of Windsor. 25 A: Yes, I'm enrolled there in
131 collaboration with Lambton College for a Bachelor of 2 Science in Nursing. I'm in my second year. 3 Q: That's a four (4) year program, is 4 it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And when did you -- when 7 did you start that and when do you expect, then, to have 8 your Bachelor of Science in nursing? 9 A: I always forget what year it is, but 10 I -- I started that program in 2003 -- no, 2000 -- 2002, 11 so I won't have a degree until 2007. 12 Q: And in the meantime are you working, 13 or is studying your -- your occupation? 14 A: Actually studying is a full time -- 15 studying for this program is a full-time job itself. 16 Q: And, in fact, you're missing school 17 today in order to be here with us to -- 18 A: Yes, I am. 19 Q: And we do appreciate that. Now, Mrs. 20 George, I want to go back to 1980 and I understand that 21 you had attended a meeting concerning a settlement 22 between the -- the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the 23 Federal Government regarding the Stoney Point lands, also 24 known as Camp Ipperwash, and there was some discussions, 25 as I understand, about the distribution of monies to Band
141 members. 2 Is there something you can tell us about 3 that? 4 A: Yes. I attended that meeting and it 5 took place on -- in Kettle Point, at what was the ball 6 diamond, down along the lake. And I attended that with 7 my husband and I recall there was one (1) man, Doug 8 George, who was quite vocal. 9 He actually was expressing why Stoney 10 Point monies were being -- going to be distributed to all 11 Kettle Point Band members because he felt that was 12 unfair. He said the money shouldn't be distributed to 13 everybody because people on Kettle Point have lands and 14 they lease out those lands and they don't share those 15 monies with everybody and anybody from Stoney Point 16 either. 17 So he was quite -- quite angry with the 18 fact that monies that he felt should go to -- directly to 19 the Stoney Point people was going to be distributed to 20 the broader Band membership. 21 Q: Okay. The name you mentioned again 22 was Doug George? 23 A: Douglas George, yes. 24 Q: And was Douglas George a Stoney Point 25 descendant --
151 A: Descendant, yes. 2 Q: -- if I can put it that way? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. 5 Q: He came from a very large family, 6 actually. And I had the opportunity in Homemaking 7 Services to care for Doug George at one (1) point and he 8 was still quite vocal up until his passing that -- about 9 why monies were being distributed out to other people in 10 Kettle Point and not just Stoney Point people. 11 Q: Okay. So we should understand from 12 your comments that there had been some form of a payment 13 that was made -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- to the Band? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And distribution had taken place per 18 capita? That is to say, to individual members? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right. Just on that note, Mrs. 21 George, did Stoney Point descendants participate in this 22 per capita distribution? 23 A: Well, I'm sure they all got -- from 24 my understanding is that everybody on the Band was given 25 a thousand dollars ($1,000).
161 Q: I see. And just to finish on that 2 point, was it your understanding that this per capita 3 payment was in the form of -- of rent? Is that what I 4 understood you to say? Or do you know what the payment 5 was? Perhaps that's a more fair question. 6 A: I think that's what it was. I was 7 think -- the government had labelled it as back payment 8 for use of the land, which I take as rent. 9 Q: I see. In 1990, I understand that 10 you had witnessed the funeral of Dan George and that your 11 husband participated as a pallbearer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 14 Where did that occur and -- 15 A: Well, I wasn't really too familiar 16 with going into Stoney Point and when we went -- took a 17 long way around and circled around. I found burial 18 grounds to be overgrown and if I'm not mistaken, there 19 was still a fence there. There was -- it was fenced in 20 and it was not taken care of. That's my observation was 21 it wasn't being cared for. 22 Q: All right. Were you aware, Mrs. 23 George, that the funeral of Dan George was the first to 24 have occurred there in modern times, that is -- that is a 25 Stoney Point member?
171 A: Yes. Yes, I was aware of that. 2 Q: Right. And do you know how that came 3 about in terms of how that funeral was permitted to be 4 held on -- on that traditional land? 5 A: No, I'm not sure exactly how that 6 came to be and -- 7 Q: And just over your right shoulder, up 8 on the screen, is a map that has been marked in these 9 proceedings as... 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-40. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: ...P-40. You recognize that, first 14 of all, Mrs. George? 15 A: Yeah. Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And there's a laser pointer 17 just to your right there. Should be a button there and 18 if you want to just take a moment to examine that, okay. 19 And if you could perhaps just with the 20 pointer indicate where the funeral -- or where the 21 cemetery is? 22 A: I'm not good at maps. 23 Q: Fair enough. And if you could maybe 24 just even estimate for us that would be helpful. I 25 appreciate your -- your candour in telling us that that's
181 difficult for you. 2 A: Well, I can see where the dump is, so 3 I imagine it's like back in here somewhere. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. In -- in here - 6 - like right in the middle I think of the -- of the whole 7 area. 8 Q: And you're indicating the middle of 9 the -- of the map that depicts the Army Camp or the -- 10 what's known as -- on the map as Ipperwash Military 11 Reserve? 12 A: Yes. I'm not sure. I'm not good at 13 direction. 14 Q: In terms of getting into the Army 15 Camp for the purposes of having this funeral, do you know 16 what measures were taken; whether there was any sort of 17 requests made or demands made or anything of that nature? 18 A: I would imagine there had to be some 19 kind of a request made or demand because we actually had 20 a wood stove at our home in Kettle Point and my husband 21 had to have permission to go into the lands also to cut 22 wood. 23 He had to ask for per -- for permission to 24 go in there so I imagine they weren't just allowing 25 anybody to come in and do a burial without asking
191 permission or demanding that they be allowed to bring 2 their -- their dad home to bury him. 3 Q: Okay. I take it from that then that 4 you don't know whether there was permission specifically 5 for the funeral but given your own experience, or your 6 husband's experience, in accessing the land on other 7 occasions, it's likely. 8 A: Yes. Likely. 9 Q: I take it from your earlier response 10 as well, Mrs. George, that you had not been on those 11 lands prior to the funeral? 12 A: Not that I can recall. I don't -- a 13 -- a couple of times maybe, I don't know. I -- I'm just 14 not -- 15 Q: That's fair enough and I understand, 16 though, that your husband had certainly been there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You're aware that your husband had 19 been on the -- the Army Camp range? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And in 1993, I take it you're aware 22 that a number of folks had moved onto the range and had 23 built temporary -- well, initially in -- in pup tents, I 24 think it's been described as. 25 A: Yes.
201 Q: All right. And do you know whether or 2 not your husband or any of your family had attended at 3 that point in time? That is from May of 1993? 4 A: Yes. My father-in-law moved onto the 5 lands -- 6 Q: Just for the record. If I -- I'm 7 sorry to interrupt you. Your father-in-law? 8 A: Abe George. 9 Q: All right. I'm sorry, go ahead. 10 A: As well as several of his grandsons 11 moved onto the land with him. There were others like 12 Glen George and Dudley and there were probably some 13 others that I don't recall right at the moment. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it your husband -- 15 you were aware that your husband would go there from time 16 to time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You had however maintained your own 19 residence at the Kettle Point community? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And just in referring again to the 22 map on the big screen, Mrs. George. Do you know where -- 23 when these folks had initially set up their camps, where 24 they were staying? And I appreciate that your earlier 25 advice that you're not good with maps. But if you can
211 help us there that would be great. 2 A: Okay. Maybe I'm a little bit more 3 able to look at it. I'm -- it's along the -- along 4 Highway 21 and I don't know. I don't know how far down 5 we were going, in this area somewhere? 6 Q: Okay. You're indicating in along the 7 range of the southern -- pardon me -- at the bottom part 8 of the photograph and we are told, Mrs. George, that the 9 bottom of the photograph runs adjacent -- bottom of the 10 map, rather, runs adjacent to Highway 21? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You're indicating a location 13 somewhere in the middle between what's depicted on the 14 map as magazine and the rifle range? 15 A: I guess, I'm not sure. 16 Q: And had you occasion when -- when 17 these folks were camping there, had you any occasion to 18 be there; to go in to -- to visit, to see family or 19 anything? 20 A: Yes, I went with my husband several 21 times and we went to the trailer where Dudley was staying 22 and we -- my husband often took, probably like, 23 cigarettes or some food items into them on several 24 occasions and we would go and visit with Dudley. 25 Q: And when -- and the times that you
221 would go and visit with Dudley, was there ever occasion 2 when you would stay over? 3 A: I never did, personally. I think my 4 husband probably maybe stayed late into the night, but I 5 don't -- I don't recall him ever staying overnight. 6 Q: All right. And the times that you 7 would visit and take stuff to -- to Dudley, what can you 8 tell us about that and perhaps even what can you tell us 9 about Dudley George? 10 A: It was -- he was always a really 11 outgoing person and happy to -- happy to have you come 12 and visit in his home and he was just always laughing and 13 cheerful and always joking around and I enjoyed going 14 there and visiting with him and I don't know. He was 15 just a nice guy to be around all the time. 16 Q: When you say, "His home," was he 17 living at that point in a -- in a tent? 18 A: No, he had a trailer there. There 19 was a trailer. 20 Q: And when you would go to visit at his 21 home, at his trailer, can you recall what the approximate 22 date of that might have been? 23 A: I don't know. I can't remember. I 24 remember going there in the wintertime as well as before 25 there was snow on the ground because there were -- I
231 don't know, it was, like, in the summertime and then into 2 the winter months. 3 Q: During the winter time that you would 4 go there to visit, do you recall who all might have yet 5 remained on the Army Camp land? 6 A: Gee, there was -- I don't -- I know 7 Glenn was there and I really don't recall who else would 8 have been there, but I know Dudley was one (1) of the 9 ones who stayed there during the winter. 10 Q: Okay. One (1) person that we've 11 heard from in this -- in -- in this Inquiry is Clifford 12 George. Do you recall whether he was there? 13 A: I'm sure that he was, but I -- in the 14 little -- maybe a little trailer or a little house a 15 little further up the road closer to the built-up area, 16 if he was there. 17 Q: I take it you had no occasion to 18 visit with him? 19 A: I went to Clifford's a couple times, 20 but not -- no, I wasn't a frequent visitor to Clifford's. 21 Q: All right. During the time that you 22 did attend there, did you ever witness any events, any 23 interaction between Dudley George and Military personnel? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what can you tell us about that?
241 A: He seen the Military vehicle going by 2 towards -- down Highway 21, away from the built-up area, 3 he knew they'd come back and he said, Watch this. When 4 they come back -- and as soon as he seen them coming, he 5 ran out and said, Get off my land, and threw some eggs at 6 them. 7 Q: Were they inside the fence or were 8 they outside the fence? 9 A: No, they were inside the fence along 10 the -- in -- along the roadway that run right beside his 11 trailer, in between his trailer and Highway 21. 12 Q: And if you could just refer to the -- 13 to the map on the screen again, there is a road that 14 would seem to run -- 15 A: There? 16 Q: Yes, adjacent to the southern border, 17 if I can put it that way. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And so the Military 20 personnel were driving by. I take it they'd be in a Jeep 21 or some patrol vehicle? 22 A: Some kind of Military vehicle, yes. 23 Q: Do you know whether or not they would 24 have heard Dudley George when he was telling them to get 25 off his land?
251 A: I don't think it was really cold out 2 at that time, so I think the -- their windows were open. 3 Q: Was -- was there any response by the 4 Military personnel? 5 A: They just kind of -- you know -- not 6 really, just kept driving by. 7 Q: Do you know whether or not they were 8 struck with the eggs that were thrown? 9 A: Oh, I think the eggs did hit their 10 vehicle. 11 Q: Okay. I take it they weren't that 12 far away? 13 A: No. His trailer was pretty close to 14 the roadway. 15 Q: All right. And you've described him 16 as a pretty happy sort of person. Was that behaviour at 17 odds at all, with what you had seen? 18 A: Well, I think he was like anybody 19 else that felt like -- you know, these people are on my 20 land and why don't they -- you know, they're -- they -- 21 they promised to give it back after the war was over. 22 The war was long over so I think he'd be like anybody 23 else. 24 But it wasn't like a real anger. It was 25 just kind of, I'm going to intimidate them a little and
261 I'm sure -- he knew they weren't going to leave, just 2 because he was throwing eggs at them, but he wasn't going 3 to make it easy for them to do their job riding by his 4 home. 5 Q: All right. And just on that point, 6 beyond eggs, are you -- are you aware -- are you aware of 7 whether or not there might have been anything other than 8 eggs, that Dudley George or anybody else at that point in 9 time, had visited upon Military personnel? 10 A: Not that I have ever wit -- 11 witnessed, anybody throwing anything else. 12 Q: And perhaps I should ask you at this 13 point as well, Mrs. George, whether during the time that 14 you were there visiting, whether you've seen any of the 15 Stoney Point occupiers use or point weapons or threaten 16 weapons, with respect to the Military personnel? 17 A: No. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: We were told that there was an 22 allegation of a helicopter being shot at some point -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- you're aware of that? 25 A: I heard of that, yes.
271 Q: And can you tell us anything at all 2 about that, beyond that you heard that -- that this 3 allegation had been made? 4 A: No, I -- I don't know anything about 5 it. I wasn't there. I only heard that that's the 6 allegation. I don't know anything else about it. 7 Q: All right. Your son, however, had 8 been arrested for an allegation made against him of 9 damaging property at the Army Camp. 10 Do you recall that at all? Your son, 11 Nicholas. 12 A: Yes. It was actually a sign that was 13 down on the beach, between where the Park fence was and 14 there was a drive going -- a driveway -- a roadway going 15 down there and then there was the -- the other side of 16 the beach which they termed the Military side. 17 And there was a big sign there and I think 18 they started a fire or something and it started -- caught 19 the sign on fire. It was like up on a hill, kind of. 20 And I guess he was -- they took him to Grand Bend. They 21 arrested him and took him to Grand Bend for that. 22 Q: How old was Nicholas at that time? 23 A: I don't know. Maybe fifteen (15). 24 Fourteen (14), fifteen (15). I'm not -- 25 Q: If you could just refer to the map at
281 -- of the Ipperwash Military reserve, at the upper 2 portion. I'm going to suggest to you that the upper 3 portion represents the Lake. 4 A: Yeah. And I think, like, right up -- 5 pretty close to the beach on this side of that roadway, 6 in there, that's where that sign was. 7 Q: And you've indicated, for the 8 purposes of the record, Mrs. George, the area that's the 9 intersection of the beach and what has been described for 10 us as the eastern border of the Provincial Park? 11 Is that fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And just incidentally, 14 with respect to the arrest of your son Nicholas and him 15 being taken to Grand Bend, were you, as his parent, 16 informed of that or was his father or do you know? 17 A: I can't remember. Somebody called us 18 and told us that he was taken there for destroying a 19 sign. 20 Q: All right. And do you know what the 21 disposition is, or that is to say, what the outcome of 22 his being charged for destroying a sign? 23 A: I can't even remember at this point. 24 Q: All right. In the summer of 1995, 25 Nicholas advised you that he was going to be staying on
291 at the Army Camp. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I understand, as well, Mrs. 4 George, that at that point you had more free time, or you 5 spent much of your free time then down at the beach area. 6 A: Yeah. When our children were out of 7 school we found more time, when I was off work, to go 8 down and we often took food items to cook, to feed all of 9 the young fellows that were down there, they had a bus 10 down along the beach and the Camp area. 11 It was nice to be there and to be 12 supporting them, because we knew that they felt strongly 13 about this, about getting the land back. 14 Q: And when you say young people, what 15 age group are we talking about firstly? 16 A: We're probably talking about my son's 17 age group at the time, so fifteen (15), sixteen (16), 18 seventeen (17), in that area. There was probably a few 19 older ones and I don't think there were any -- too many 20 younger than that, but there might have been a couple of 21 them. 22 Q: Primarily teenagers then? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when you say fellas, do I take it 25 from that it was mostly males?
301 A: Yeah, I think so. It would be fair 2 to say it was mostly males. 3 Q: Okay. Along the -- the beach area, 4 was there any particular location that -- that was 5 favoured? 6 A: You're gonna ask me to point it out 7 again? 8 Q: I might, if you can tell me. 9 A: I only know it was an area that was 10 between two (2) big hills, and it was kind of like they 11 had their camp in that area. So I don't know how far 12 down the beach it was, but it was right on the beach. 13 Q: And during that time, do you recall 14 whether there was any interaction with Military 15 personnel, during the time that you had spent on the 16 beach, in support of these young people? 17 A: Not that I can recall. 18 Q: Your son, Nicolas, at some point 19 during that summer, advised you further that there was 20 other plans in the making; is that fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was it that he told you? 23 A: He said they were planning on taking 24 back, kind of like, they wanted to be up in that built-up 25 area to chase the Military out of there.
311 Q: And the built-up -- when you say the 2 built-up area, we understand that that means the barracks 3 area? 4 A: Yeah. Right -- that area there, 5 because that's where most of the area -- that's mostly 6 where the Military was occupying. Although they were 7 doing their patrols, I'm sure, around the whole perimeter 8 of the area, but that's where they were taking up 9 residence. 10 Q: And in terms of Nicolas' advice to 11 you that they were -- now, did you say they were planning 12 to move to the built-up area? 13 A: I don't know if that's exact words, 14 but he said -- what he had said to me was, they felt like 15 they should have all of the lands back, they felt like 16 they shouldn't have to just occupy part of that area 17 along Highway 21 and part of the beach area. 18 He felt -- they said they felt like they - 19 - they needed to get the whole area back that was 20 occupied by the Military. 21 Q: All right. And in terms of this 22 stated feeling, I'm going to leave it at that for the 23 time being, were you told at all, by Nicolas or by 24 anybody, as to who was involved in the planning? 25 A: Well, I just took it as the whole
321 group that was there, that were occupying the land at the 2 time, the fellas who were down along the beach, and, 3 there might have been others. 4 Q: And the fellas that were down on the 5 beach, were -- were they all Stoney Point descendants as 6 far as you could tell? 7 A: As far as I know, yes. 8 Q: And did it seem to you, and I'll 9 leave this, did it seem to you that there was anybody, 10 for lack of a better word, in charge of the -- the young 11 fellas that were at the beach? 12 A: I don't think there was really 13 anybody in charge. I think they just were a group that 14 maybe were talking and maybe some of the older ones were 15 giving them some advice, but they had all come to 16 consensus that, yes, this is what we're going to do. 17 Q: I'm interested in your remark that 18 perhaps some older ones may have been giving advice. Do 19 you know who the older ones might have been? 20 A: I -- I would think maybe -- I would 21 think it was probably Abe, Abe George and Clifford. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: They were regarded as -- as Elders
331 within the community? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I take it from your answer that 4 you're not -- one, you're not certain of it and you 5 wouldn't have any specific knowledge of what advice would 6 have been given? 7 A: No, because I wasn't there for the 8 discussion, so I couldn't tell you what kind of advice 9 was being given. 10 Q: When Nicholas told you about his 11 feeling or the desire of these young people, how did you 12 feel about that and what, if anything, did you do? 13 A: I talked to my son and I said, well, 14 how come all of us -- like how come -- to me, it seemed 15 like a snap judgment, but he said to me, sometimes you 16 think you're a little bit wiser than your children and 17 sometimes you find you're not. 18 And he said to me, the thing is, he said, 19 look at how old grandpa is and grandpa -- 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: We can just take a moment, Mrs. 24 George. 25
341 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: And pretty soon grandpa's not going 4 to be here. And grandpa wants to move home. And if we 5 wait until the Military decides to give this land back, 6 grandpa may not be able to rebuild his home. Even though 7 he's there, he wants to know that the land is actually 8 coming back to his people. 9 So I just said to my son, okay, so 10 whatever you do, we have to support you in this one. 11 Q: So you definitely got a sense that 12 there was a feeling of -- I don't want to put words in 13 your mouth, but would urgency or -- 14 A: Well, I think that they felt like 15 they'd waited long enough for the Military to give back 16 land. It was -- it was like almost fifty (50) years, so 17 -- or there was more than fifty (50) years and he said 18 how much longer are we going to wait? 19 Are we going to wait 'til your generation 20 has gone too, before we wait for the Military to give it 21 back? Am I going to be old before they give it back? 22 Him -- speaking of his own age group. 23 Are we going to be still trying to get 24 back lands that they promised to give back a long time 25 ago? We're tired of listening to them. They're -- all
351 they do is talk, talk, talk. 2 We're tired of hearing talk and we're just 3 going to take some action and that's all that is -- there 4 is to it. And if they don't like that we're taking back 5 our land, well, too bad for them, because the land 6 belongs to us. 7 Q: You've told us that you were clearly 8 prepared to support this. Did you feel any sort of 9 apprehension, Mrs. George? 10 A: Not really. Not after he said that. 11 Not after his explanation as to why. I just felt like if 12 the land was going to come back to the people, I guess 13 that is -- was the only way they were going to get it 14 back was because he's -- he was right. 15 There was -- that's all the government 16 wanted to do, was talk, and all the government wanted to 17 do was talk to the Kettle Point Band. They didn't want 18 to talk to the Stoney Point people that were originally 19 removed from those lands. 20 And in doing that, how -- how were these 21 people -- how were we ever going to get the land back, 22 when they're dealing with another faction that did not 23 own these lands? 24 Q: Would it be fair to say, Mrs. George, 25 that there was an expression of frustration that your
361 son, Nicholas, was putting forward? 2 A: Yes. I felt he was very frustrated, 3 because he spent time with his grandfather and they 4 always listened to what their grandfather had to say, his 5 feelings. And so I felt that he -- they were feeling his 6 frustration. 7 And as young people, young men, it was 8 their job to go out and -- and try and do what grandpa 9 wanted -- wanted. 10 Q: In terms of -- of this expression in 11 that they told -- or he told you, rather, that they felt 12 they should take the barracks, did he explain to you the 13 manner in which that they would attempt to achieve this 14 objective? 15 A: No, I wasn't given any explanation 16 about that. 17 Q: Were you concerned at that that might 18 include violent action? 19 A: No, I didn't -- 20 Q: That, in fact, your son or others 21 might be hurt? 22 A: I didn't think they would -- I didn't 23 think they were going to do anything violent because it 24 sounded like there was women involved and children and 25 they were just going to march in.
371 Q: And I -- I may have asked you 2 earlier, but I'll ask you again, Mrs. George, at that 3 point did you hear any discussions or did you see 4 anything to do with firearms? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you have any concern that 7 firearms might be part of this march in, in terms of 8 achieving the objective of taking back the barracks or 9 the built-up area? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And on the 29th of July, in 1995 12 we're told that, in fact, there was a move into the 13 barracks area by a number of individuals, and I take it 14 your son was among them? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What can you tell us about that? 17 Were you involved in that at all, Mrs. George? 18 A: No, my husband and I had gone to 19 Sarnia that day, so actually there was -- to me there 20 wasn't really -- it may be -- might have been a -- a 21 decision they made that morning or -- because weren't 22 aware of it. 23 We had gone to Sarnia and then we had come 24 back and we took our usual way in down by the -- along 25 the highway only to find that everybody was up around
381 this end of the built-up area because they had said to us 2 that they were -- they were taking it over and that the 3 Military was moving out. It was actually getting towards 4 evening when we returned that day -- towards early 5 evening. 6 Q: On the 29th of July -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- in 1995. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: When you say you took your usual way, 11 I gather that's along Highway 21? 12 A: Yes. There was a break in the fence 13 there, a driveway that we went in; that's how we entered. 14 Q: And your testimony is, is that people 15 were in the built-up area by that point? 16 A: Yes. They were at one (1) end, 17 though. They were kind of gathered around a couple of 18 buildings here. There was, like, a chapel or something 19 here and everybody was sitting outside of there and they 20 were waiting for, I guess it was -- they were waiting for 21 a decision by the Military to actually vacate the 22 premises. 23 Q: Okay. You had just pointed earlier 24 to the eastern portion of what's been referred to as the 25 built-up area. We now have on the screen a diagram of
391 Camp Ipperwash. Do you recognize that, first of all? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And this has been marked as P-41 in 4 these exhibits, Mrs. George, and I wonder if you might 5 just take that laser pointer again and indicate the area 6 that you just referred to? 7 A: In this area here. This is where 8 people were sitting. They were sitting out on the grass 9 around in that area. 10 Q: Can you recall how many people were 11 sitting around the grass at that area? 12 A: There was quite a few people. There 13 was women and children and some of the young fellows and 14 some of the older ones were there, too. 15 Q: Could you describe the mood of the 16 people that you'd encountered when you arrived there 17 towards the evening on the 29th of July? 18 A: They were actually pretty excited and 19 -- and feeling -- their spirits were up and they were 20 feeling happy that, perhaps, the Military was going to 21 leave the area. 22 Q: Were you made aware, at that point, 23 as to whether or not there had been any altercations 24 between the people that were now sitting there and the 25 Military personnel?
401 A: They said something about the bus 2 coming in, just like, driving in and -- but I really 3 didn't catch too much because there was too -- too much 4 excitement and everybody was trying to say what was going 5 on all at the same time, so I didn't -- 6 Q: Given your background in -- in first- 7 aid, did you notice whether or not anybody was injured or 8 any such thing had -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: I take it that's something that would 11 have stuck out in your mind. 12 A: I think they said a couple of people 13 had gotten pepper sprayed, but I didn't really observe 14 those people there at the time. 15 Q: You're aware that a decision was made 16 at some point on that day I think we're told, that the 17 Military did decide that they would vacate? 18 A: Yes, later that evening. 19 Q: What can you tell us about that? 20 A: We were still around in that area and 21 then -- I can't remember who came back and they said the 22 military's leaving. They decided they were leaving so 23 that they would prevent any kind of -- I guess, any kind 24 of violence between the two (2) or any kind of 25 altercation between the two (2) groups, between the
411 Military and the Stoney Point people. 2 Q: Did you get the sense that there was 3 imminent violence? And I -- I just asked that -- you 4 used the word "violence." 5 A: Well, nobody looked like they were 6 violent to me. They were just kind of sitting and 7 waiting for a decision to be made. 8 Q: On that note and I've asked you this 9 in relation to the -- the range area. Did you note 10 whether or not there was anybody with firearms or any 11 discussion of having firearms? 12 A: No. There -- I never heard any 13 discussion about firearms or anybody with firearms. 14 Q: You had maintained the house in the 15 meantime at the Kettle Point community? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Your residence had been there 18 throughout? 19 A: Yeah. After my husband and I got 20 married, we moved to Kettle Point. We had previously 21 resided in Sarnia on the reserve and we moved to Kettle 22 Point. We lived in an apartment for a couple of years 23 and then we had a house built and that was our residence 24 right up until we decided to move to Stoney Point but we 25 still maintained that residence.
421 Q: So you would go back and forth 2 between the residence in Stoney Point and your Kettle 3 Point residence? 4 A: Yeah just -- we had a phone line 5 hooked up there and a fax machine because when we were in 6 Stoney Point there was no telephones there. So it was 7 kind of like a -- our communication, ways of 8 communicating with other people. Even cell phones -- we 9 found cell phones didn't work there at Stoney Point. 10 Q: And if you could just -- you -- you 11 said you took up a residence then at the built-up area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I wonder if you might just indicate 14 on P-41, where that would have been? 15 A: We live -- we live here now in this 16 building right along the highway. 17 Q: I -- I realize that the numbering is 18 very small on there, but are you able to identify the 19 number of the building on there, Mrs. George? 20 A: 39 or 37, I don't know. I -- I can't 21 -- I don't know. I know it's 30 something. 22 Q: Now there is a paper copy in front of 23 you. I'm going to ask you if you just might refer to 24 that please. And I think there's also a pen beside you 25 there, Mrs. George.
431 A: It's 37. 2 Q: Okay, thank you. You took up that 3 residence, can you tell us approximately when that might 4 have been? 5 A: I don't know if it was the next day 6 after the Military left or the following day. Within -- 7 within a day or two (2) after the Military left. 8 Q: Very shortly after the Military left? 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: And do you maintain that residence 11 today? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And just getting back to your Kettle 14 Point residence, do you still maintain that residence? 15 A: It's not there anymore. It burnt 16 down. We got a call, I don't know, a few years back -- 17 three (3) years maybe in February. We got a call in the 18 middle of the night at the gatehouse and Dave George was 19 at the gate working the gate and he came and he said our 20 house was on fire. 21 Immediately you think it's the house 22 you're in now and then he said my house in Kettle Point. 23 So -- I can't remember -- I took one (1) of my children 24 with me and drove down there and it was, like, the flames 25 were just shooting out of the roof.
441 And after they doused the fire and kind of 2 -- like the fire -- the fellow who was in charge of the 3 police was there. He just kind of -- I think took a look 4 and then just went home and -- and there really wasn't 5 any investigation done, but it was arson. 6 I looked into one (1) of the back bedrooms 7 of the house. I peered in through the window. The fire 8 had started in there. There was a big hole in the middle 9 of the floor where -- which, to me, couldn't possibly 10 have been started electrically. 11 Somebody had deliberately set the fire. 12 The door was kicked in. We had locks on the doors and 13 the door -- the back door was kicked in. And there was 14 never really any investigation done into the -- just 15 termed arson. 16 And then Kettle Point -- the insurance 17 company settled with them. We actually had to fight with 18 them to get money from our house burning down. 19 Q: Did you obtain a remedy, Mrs. George? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: Did you obtain satisfaction? 22 A: Well, we took what we could get from 23 them, because they were trying to say that we could 24 rebuild. Now why would I want to rebuild when somebody 25 will come and just burn my house down again?
451 Other people in Stoney Point had their 2 houses burned down. Carolyn, and I think they had even 3 tried to set fire to Dean Cloud's house. He's a resident 4 in Stoney Point also. 5 Q: And I just want to be clear here, 6 Mrs. George. You'd indicated that it was determined to 7 be arson but there was no real investigation; is that 8 what I understood you to -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- to say? 11 A: Yes. There was no investigation into 12 it. 13 Q: And who would have determined that it 14 was arson? 15 A: The Fire Marshall. 16 Q: I see. You didn't rebuild then, I 17 gather? 18 A: No. We didn't see any point in 19 trying to rebuild because if somebody wants to burn your 20 house down, are they going to come and try and burn it 21 down if you're actually living in it also? 22 So I had no desire to rebuild when I knew 23 that somebody was out there and wanted us -- wanted -- 24 didn't like us and wanted to burn our house down. And I 25 just felt like I was threatened.
461 Q: You -- you would have stayed, then, 2 at -- at the built-up area after that point in time? 3 A: Well, we were there right from -- 4 from, like I said, in '95 and we maintained that house in 5 Kettle Point. We had -- we kept it heated and kept the 6 phone line hooked up and at one (1) point we had rent -- 7 at a couple of different times we had rented it out to 8 other people in Kettle Point. 9 Q: And during the time then that you 10 stayed at the Army Camp, I take it you were aware, Mrs. 11 George, that various other residents of the built-up area 12 would have hunted, from time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: They would have used firearms for the 15 purposes of hunting? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Were you at all aware of who the 18 hunters were and what kind of firearms might have been 19 employed -- used by them? 20 A: No. I don't know anything about guns 21 at all. 22 Q: Do you know where they might have 23 kept their guns; that is to say, the guns that they used 24 for the purposes of hunting. 25 A: I don't know.
471 Q: Did your husband maintain a gun? Was 2 he a hunter? Perhaps I can ask that first. 3 A: No. No, my husband's not a hunter. 4 Q: What about any of your -- your sons? 5 Or your son, Nicholas? 6 A: I think he might have went hunting 7 like way -- sometime later. Maybe when he was about 8 eighteen (18) or something. I remember him getting a 9 deer -- 10 Q: Did he maintain a firearm at the 11 barracks -- 12 A: No -- 13 Q: -- to your knowledge? 14 A: No. No, I think he just like had -- 15 went out with his uncle or something or -- I'm not sure 16 how he got this one (1) deer but I -- I know he got one 17 later on and that was after the shooting of Dudley. 18 Q: All right. And during that time in 19 August of 19 -- or the summer of 1995, including August 20 of 1995, there were a variety of people from other 21 communities that were there in support of the Stoney 22 Point people. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And do you know who these individuals 25 might be or what other communities they might have came
481 from? 2 A: People came from -- actually after 3 the shooting I think people came from all different 4 nations, like, there were some from Walpole, from Sarnia, 5 from -- I think we had one (1) fellow there, he come from 6 up in the northern part of Ontario, Sagamok. There was 7 some from there; from Oneida Nation. 8 Q: Okay. Let me just ask you about the 9 time period just before September of 1995. 10 Were there people from other communities, 11 First Nations people in particular, that were there in 12 support of the Stoney Point people? 13 A: Yes, I think there was a couple. 14 Q: Okay. Do you recall where they might 15 have been from and who they were? 16 A: I remember there was -- I think a 17 couple of people from Oneida and then maybe a couple -- I 18 don't know if that was before or after, though. Before, 19 I think from Oneida, but I'm not -- and I know that there 20 was some people that came from the States side in 21 Michigan, but I'm -- I'm not sure where they were from 22 exactly. 23 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: But I know they came to support.
491 Q: I see. Do you know their names at 2 all? 3 A: No, there was an older fellow came 4 and then there was a few younger ones, but I'm not sure 5 of their names. 6 Q: You had talked about the young people 7 and the -- the advice that your son, Nicholas, had given 8 you that it was their feeling they should move into the 9 built-up area. I understand that he expressed other 10 feelings to you relative to the Provincial Park. 11 Again, in and around this time, your -- 12 did your son or did other of these young people talk 13 about their feelings with respect to the Provincial Park? 14 A: Yeah. Well, yes, because my son -- I 15 -- I think after talking to his grandfather, realized 16 that there's graves there in that Park and then they have 17 all of these people in there camping and driving back and 18 forth and not really knowing where these burial sites are 19 of our people. 20 I think that was a disturbing fact that, 21 okay, these people are camping out on our ancestors' 22 burial grounds and something has to be done about that. 23 Q: Okay. What did you know about -- 24 about that particular piece of land, Mrs. George? 25 A: Just the little bits and pieces that
501 I heard my father-in-law talking about -- Abe George -- 2 about how he remembered maybe some different -- I don't 3 know if it was his -- his remembrance or if somebody else 4 had told him a story about this man who had journeyed a 5 long way to come and bury his wife there, because I'm 6 sure -- I think they were from there or something. 7 I'm -- I'm not sure, it's not really 8 clear. I just remember hearing little bits and pieces 9 about it. 10 Q: All right. I want to move, then, 11 into the September -- into the -- the time period of 12 September 1995 and I wonder, Mr. Commissioner, if this 13 might be an appropriate time to take our morning break? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry well recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 11:52 a.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 1:06 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: Mrs. George, we're aware that on the
511 4th of September, there was a group of individuals that 2 entered the Ipperwash Provincial Park and we're told that 3 they went in through the east -- a gate on the east side 4 of the Park. Are you aware of that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Were you part of that group at 7 all? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And what can you tell us about how 10 that -- how that occurred or what happened when you got 11 there? I take it you got there at some point? 12 A: I didn't get there until later in the 13 evening. We were there earlier in the day but we were 14 along the beach and I heard them a little bit -- talk 15 about them going into the Park or -- and I wasn't really 16 involved in it. 17 I had to work -- go to work at four 18 o'clock that day. So I was actually probably gone home 19 about 3:30. And my husband was -- had been drinking so 20 he came with me and I left him at the house at Kettle 21 Point and I end up going to work and calling for a stand- 22 in after I got to work and end up going back home and 23 staying with my husband. 24 Q: Why was that, Mrs. George? 25 A: Because he had been drinking and I
521 think he had a little too much to drink, so I was kind of 2 concerned there with leaving him at home. 3 Q: All right. When you say that you had 4 to go to work, you had told us earlier that you were 5 providing home -- home-care and homemaking services, -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that would have been on Kettle 8 Point? 9 A: Kettle Point, yes. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So go ahead from there and tell us 13 what happens. 14 A: Oh, I know it was like a -- I worked 15 a eight -- I usually work a eight (8) hour shift, which 16 would of took me up to midnight and I just felt that was, 17 like, too long to be away from home, away from my husband 18 when he was in that condition. So I -- it was probably 19 like five-thirty or something, I phoned and got somebody 20 to come and fill in for me. 21 And then after I got back to the house, my 22 mother-in-law called, Muriel George, and she said that 23 they had gone into the Park and that the police were 24 there and grandpa was down there and she wanted my 25 husband to go down.
531 Q: And did you express to her your 2 concern that you had told us about just moments ago, with 3 respect to your husband and the fact that he might have 4 had too much to drink? 5 A: Yes. But he already -- he already 6 heard what was being said, so he -- we had two (2) 7 telephones in the house and he was on the other line, so 8 he had already heard and there was -- he came out and -- 9 out of the bedroom, and he wanted to go. 10 So, it was either I drove him or he drove 11 himself, and I didn't want him to drive in that 12 condition, so I drove. I drove him to the Park. 13 Q: Okay. And what happened? 14 A: We pulled into the Park, I'm not sure 15 which -- I'm not even sure which way we went into the 16 Park, whether we went in through the built-up area and 17 went down the dirt road or we drove right down and went 18 in through one (1) of the Park entrances. 19 I'm not quite sure how it is we actually 20 went in but once we got in there, there were, I believe, 21 a couple of police cruisers and I actually could identify 22 George Speck as one (1) of the police officers that were 23 there. 24 And I could see all of our -- our own 25 people were kind of further away from where we were, and
541 some of the young people came running and a couple of the 2 women, and I said to my husband that the police won't 3 leave, and they didn't want them there. 4 They said they weren't going to be there. 5 I think it was part of a previous agreement or something 6 earlier in the day, that there wouldn't be police 7 involved with handing over the Park. 8 And so my husband was very angry that they 9 were there and that the older people were feeling 10 intimidated by this. So he told them to leave and they 11 just -- they wouldn't -- they weren't really listening to 12 him. 13 So then he picked up some kind of a stick 14 or log or something and he smashed the cruiser window. 15 And then they -- they left after that. 16 Q: There's a map up on the screen, 17 beside you. Do you recognize that, first of all, Mrs. 18 George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It has been marked in these 21 proceedings as P-16. You'll agree with me -- pardon me, 22 P-61. You'll agree with me that that is a depiction of 23 the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Perhaps not the best one you've seen?
551 A: Well, I can -- I can identify with 2 it, I think. 3 Q: Thank you. You've indicated that 4 you're not certain how you would have entered the Park on 5 that day. Does looking at that at all assist you? 6 A: No. I'm not sure. I just know -- I 7 wasn't too familiar, actually, with the Park at that 8 time. I'd never been in there. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: I had never been in there, up to that 11 point. So I don't know. Like, I just -- like I said, 12 I'm not good with direction. I'm not good with -- 13 Q: And that makes two (2) of us. 14 A: -- which way things are or which way 15 I entered. I just knew we were in the Park. 16 Q: The vehicle that you were operating, 17 that would be -- I understand that you were operating a - 18 - a blue Nova? 19 A: No. It was a -- it's a red one. It 20 was red. 21 Q: A red Nova, sorry. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And when you entered the 24 Park, I think you've told us that you noticed there were 25 a number of people there, including police officers --
561 A: Yeah -- 2 Q: -- from the Ontario Provincial 3 Police? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you know how many of them there 6 might have been; whether they were uniformed or not 7 uniformed? 8 A: I'm sure they were -- they -- I'm 9 sure they were uniformed because they had the cruisers 10 and I -- I'm pretty sure they were wearing uniforms. 11 Q: And in terms of numbers of officers, 12 do you have any recollection of that? 13 A: I think there was two (2) cruisers 14 there, that I could see. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And maybe three (3) or four (4) 17 police officers. 18 Q: I see. And you've mentioned the name 19 George Speck. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: As being someone that was familiar to 22 you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: How was it that you were familiar 25 with Officer Speck?
571 A: I'm not sure. I just know who he 2 was. Like, I just -- could identify him as one (1) of 3 the police officers. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And you've told us the -- about the 8 incident between your husband and the police officers, 9 where he broke a window of the police vehicle? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you perhaps indicate on the map 12 where you think that that might have occurred? 13 A: I'm not sure. Had to be in an area 14 over here somewhere. 15 Q: Okay. And I recognize that that was 16 a long time ago, Mrs. George, and that you're uncertain. 17 You've indicated, in any event, a general vicinity to the 18 north of the Park store? 19 A: I think so. 20 Q: After the police officers or the 21 police left the Park, can you describe what was going on 22 at that point then, Mrs. George? 23 A: Well, there was kind of -- a rush of 24 people came over and -- and thanked my husband for 25 actually chasing the police away because they were
581 scared, they were upset, visibly, because there was 2 children there. And there was some of the older women. 3 They were really upset that the police were there and 4 they felt really intimidated and -- so they came rushing 5 and -- and thanked my husband for chasing them away. 6 Q: Okay. What happens after that? 7 A: I'm not sure. I just know -- I think 8 I just took my husband back up to the built-up area and 9 he went to sleep. 10 Q: I'd asked you earlier, with respect 11 to the Camp and with respect to the range, but at that 12 point did you see among the people that were in the Park 13 -- Stoney Point people that were in the Park -- any kind 14 of firearms? 15 A: No, nothing like that. 16 Q: Aside from the stick that you 17 observed your husband Roderick use, did you see whether 18 or not there were any other similar types of instruments 19 that could be used as weapons? 20 A: I didn't notice anybody with 21 anything. 22 Q: Whether anybody was carrying anything 23 in their hands, or otherwise? 24 A: Not that I -- not that I seen. 25 Q: Is there anything further, that
591 sticks out in your mind, Mrs. George, about September the 2 4th of '95, prior to your returning back to the barracks 3 with your husband so that he could sleep? 4 A: I don't think so. 5 Q: All right. On September the 5th, 6 which would be a Tuesday, I understand that you returned 7 then, to the Park. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you know what time you would have 10 went back to the Park? 11 A: Probably early afternoon, maybe. I 12 don't know. Probably all throughout the day, I would 13 think. 14 Q: You would have been travelling back 15 and forth -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- from the built-up area -- your 18 residence in the built-up area and the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in terms of travelling back and 21 forth, what -- what were you doing? 22 A: Probably just taking food and drinks 23 down to people in the Park. 24 Q: When you say, "drinks," would that 25 include, by any chance, alcoholic beverage?
601 A: No. Pop, juice, water. 2 Q: Do you know whether or not there was 3 any kind of discussion or decision taken, with respect to 4 people in the Park, consuming alcohol or otherwise? 5 A: Not that I heard, like, myself. I 6 didn't really hear that. 7 Q: And I understand that in terms of the 8 items that you were taking back to the Park, the food and 9 the -- and the drinks, that there was a bit of a picnic 10 that was held? 11 A: Yeah, there was a lot of people down 12 in the Park area and just kind of a celebration so to 13 speak, that they had acquired their burial grounds back 14 and rightfully so, and some people were not really 15 wanting to leave there and so a lot of people were 16 bringing in food, sandwiches and different things, 17 different food items. 18 Q: When you say that people were -- 19 people had acquired their burial grounds, do you know 20 whether or not there were any, perhaps, ceremonies to 21 accompany that? Did you witness any such thing? 22 A: Not that I witnessed, but not until 23 later when they wanted to identify exactly where some of 24 the burial grounds were within the Park. 25 Q: So that did occur at some point in
611 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know when that would have 4 been, Mrs. George, and -- 5 A: I'm not sure of the exact dates of 6 that, but I know there was a couple of people that came 7 from the Oneida nation, came to help in that respect, 8 that they can identify where the -- where the -- some of 9 the burial sites were, and in fact, we found -- I wasn't 10 there to -- to witness it, I was actually up at the main 11 kitchen of the Camp and I was preparing food to feed 12 them. 13 And I was told that there burial sites 14 under the roadway that led from the maintenance shed into 15 the Park area and so we had that road closed off so that 16 cars weren't driving back and forth over those burial 17 sites. 18 Q: Okay. And so I'm clear on this, you 19 said that this was located by people that came from 20 Oneida to assist? 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: Are you able to -- to tell us in 23 reference to the map on the screen beside you, Mrs. 24 George, as to this might have -- where this location was? 25 A: The roadway that they closed off was
621 that roadway there. 2 Q: Right. And you're indicating the 3 line depicting a roadway approximately through the middle 4 of the diagram. 5 A: Well, just right outside of that 6 maintenance shed, up until that paved -- paved section of 7 roadway that runs through the Park. 8 Q: Right to the north, immediately 9 adjacent to what's depicted as the bridge? Is that 10 right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. On the 5th of September, in 13 '95, when you had attended there, that there's a picnic 14 going on. You've described that there was a number of 15 people around. We were told as well that there was a 16 helicopter that came about. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: What can you tell us about that? 19 A: The helicopter came flying above 20 where everybody was in the picnic and I would -- was just 21 arriving and opening my trunk to get all of the things 22 out that I brought. 23 And the helicopter came very low, flew 24 very low, because there was -- people had paper plates 25 and stuff and everything went flying off the tables.
631 And there was a lady had a newborn baby 2 there and that was very upsetting to her, to have the 3 helicopter hovering. And there was like a big -- like 4 the wind that it creates, blowing at everybody. 5 And I think they especially were trying to 6 see what I was pulling out of my trunk but it was just 7 food. It was drinks and food and I could identify one 8 (1) -- one (1) OPP officer in the helicopter who was -- 9 it looked like they were taking pictures of people or 10 maybe they were identifying -- trying to identify some of 11 the people who were on the ground. 12 Q: All right. And who was this -- this 13 OPP officer that you were able to identify in the 14 helicopter? 15 A: It was Vince George. 16 Q: Okay. Did anything else happen as 17 this helicopter then is flying around and you think 18 people are taking pictures or attempting to identify the 19 people in the Park? 20 A: I think a couple of the fellows threw 21 sticks or something up at them to try and like, get out 22 of here and leave us alone type of thing. Probably -- 23 Q: Do you know whether they were able to 24 strike these helicopters? 25 A: I don't think so. I don't think
641 anything actually hit the helicopter. 2 Q: Because they were too high? 3 A: No. Probably just -- I don't know. 4 Maybe they weren't -- they didn't throw high enough. I 5 don't know. But it didn't look like it actually struck 6 anything. 7 Q: Fair enough. Just incidentally, on 8 that note, before we move off of that, do you recall 9 seeing Bonnie Bressette there? 10 A: Yes, I actually remember her -- 11 seeing her there with a lot of her family members. 12 Q: These would include some of her 13 grandchildren? 14 A: Yes. Her daughters and her 15 grandchildren. 16 Q: And they were there to participate in 17 the picnic and visiting and so on? 18 A: I believe, yes. 19 Q: Do you recall how long you might have 20 stayed at the Park, Mrs. George? 21 A: Well, I think I was just like coming 22 and going all day because my daughters were young then. 23 I had young daughters who were not too pleased with using 24 any kind of outdoor facilities for bathrooms, so they 25 always wanted to go home to go to the bathroom, so I'd --
651 I'd run and take them up and my other daughter was -- I - 2 - I think she was -- she liked to watch a lot of the news 3 coverage and she always taped -- like to tape it. 4 So she was -- stayed up at the house a lot 5 of the time and I would go back and forth to check on 6 her, also. 7 Q: In Kettle Point? 8 A: No. In -- at -- in -- 9 Q: At the built-up area? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. In Building Number 30 -- 12 A: 7. 13 Q: 37, that you've identified for us? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. As you would travel back 16 and forth between the Park and the built-up area, taking 17 your children and so on, what route would you typically 18 take? And again, we're talking about Tuesday, the 5th of 19 September. 20 A: Oh, I travelled the dirt road that 21 ran inside of the fence along Army Camp Road. 22 Q: Okay. During the times -- the times 23 that you would have travelled that route, did you notice 24 whether or not there was any OPP officers, in the 25 vicinity?
661 A: Yes. 2 Q: And where did you observe them? 3 A: Out along Army Camp Road. 4 Q: Okay. So they would have been 5 outside of the -- 6 A: Outside of the fence but on Army Camp 7 Road itself, yes. 8 Q: All right. And what were they doing 9 on Army Camp Road, outside of the fence? 10 A: They had some checkpoints set up, 11 they were starting to set up checkpoints -- 12 Q: Did you -- 13 A: -- along there. 14 Q: And in reference to the map on the 15 screen, which we've looked at earlier, marked as P-40 in 16 these Proceedings, Mrs. George, can you describe where 17 those checkpoints might have been, that you noticed? 18 A: I actually noticed a checkpoint when 19 you turn right off Highway 21, even before you got to the 20 main gate, there was one (1) there, and if you came out 21 of the main gate and headed down towards the lake, there 22 was one (1) there. 23 Q: And you've indicated, just for the 24 record, at a -- at a point that is almost adjacent to the 25 northernmost end of the built-up area?
671 A: Yes, in that area, in that vicinity 2 right there. 3 Q: Right, go ahead. 4 A: And then if you go -- then if I've 5 travelled further down I think there was another one in 6 here somewhere, and then there was one (1) on the curve 7 that went to East Parkway Drive. 8 Q: All right. So you've indicated at 9 least four (4) checkpoints that you had observed? 10 A: There might have been only three (3), 11 but I think -- I'm sure there was four (4). 12 Q: At any point in time did you travel 13 on Army Camp Road on Tuesday, the 5th of September? 14 A: Yes, I wanted to see where all these 15 checkpoints are and how long it would take me to get to 16 work, because I had to go on a midnight shift on the 17 following evening, and I wanted to know how long it was 18 gonna take me, other than my ususal time, to go through 19 all these checkpoints to get to work. 20 Q: So tell us about that. 21 A: I came out of the gate and I 22 travelled down towards the lake way. 23 Q: So north on Army Camp Road? 24 A: Yes. And I came to the first 25 checkpoint and I was asked for my driver's license,
681 insurance, where I was going. 2 And then I got to the next checkpoint, and 3 there was cars ahead of me, and some of them were non- 4 Native, and I noticed that after the very -- probably the 5 first checkpoint, there -- they were just kind of, said 6 they can go through, they weren't really checked for 7 anything, they were just a few words exchanged and they 8 were allowed to go through, whereas I, at every 9 checkpoint, had to show all of my documents and say where 10 I was going. 11 And I said, well, why can't you just ask 12 the guy at the previous checkpoint, why can't you radio 13 and ask him, because I've already showed this several 14 times. 15 And then even when I got to the next road 16 over, which was -- I don't even know the name of that 17 road, Ravenswood Road, there was a checkpoint there and I 18 had to show all of my documents there. 19 So I've actually gone through a number of 20 checkpoints and at every one I had taken several minutes. 21 Q: So, Ravenswood Road and -- 22 A: Ravenswood Road and -- 23 Q: -- East Parkway Drive? 24 A: Yes. There was one there too. 25 Q: An additional checkpoint?
691 A: Yes. 2 Q: And just, if we can stay with the 3 checkpoints for a moment, how would you describe those, 4 and how were they staffed? 5 A: Well, I think there was a couple of 6 police officers at each one. There was more than one 7 (1), I know that. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And it just seemed odd that, why are 10 they asking me for all of my stuff. I said where I -- 11 what I was doing was trying to find how long it was gonna 12 take me to get to work, because of all these checkpoints 13 being there and having to show all of my documents at 14 each one. 15 Seemed very unusual, because if you're 16 checked at the first one, why do you have to go through 17 every single one when it's just a couple hundred yards 18 down the road? 19 Q: And so when you went on this, to go 20 and check how long it would take you to get to work, were 21 you with anyone? 22 A: I don't think so, I think I went by 23 myself. 24 Q: You've indicated that there were non- 25 Aboriginal people that -- in other vehicles, and it
701 seemed to you that they were not required at each 2 checkpoint to go through the same routine? 3 A: Oh I know they weren't because in 4 just -- there was just a couple of words exchanged and 5 they were just kind of waved on. 6 Q: When you asked the officers why you 7 were required to go through the routine at each 8 checkpoint, did you get a response at all? 9 A: Not really. Just said, you know, if 10 you don't want to show us your documents, then you can 11 just turn around and go back from where you came from. 12 Q: All right. You eventually went back 13 to the Park, I understand, Mrs. George, and you observed 14 some interaction between some police officers and -- and 15 some of the occupiers inside of the Park, along the Park 16 fence? 17 A: Yes, I took my daughters back down 18 into the Park and there was a lot of, probably activity 19 going on here and there, and cars coming and going. 20 And my daughters and I were actually along 21 some trees there, and I noticed that there were some 22 officers who had come up to the fence line, outside of 23 the Park, where that sandy parking area was, the sandy 24 parking area outside of the Park fence line. 25 And they were calling to people who were
711 riding by, they were saying, Hey, we want to talk to one 2 (1) of your leaders, and they kept saying that to people. 3 And people were -- just weren't paying attention to them, 4 they would just ride by and just disregard what they were 5 saying. 6 So, some vehicles hadn't gone by for some 7 time passing by there, so they -- I think they noticed me 8 standing there with the girls, so then they hollered at 9 me, We want to talk -- can -- we want to talk to one (1) 10 of your leaders. 11 So I said, Well, here they are and 12 motioned to my children, these are -- these are our 13 future leaders, so you can speak to one (1) of them if 14 you like. But they just kind of disregarded what I had 15 to say too, so... 16 Q: You mentioned earlier, Mrs. George, 17 that you were familiar with an Officer George Speck. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Was he among those individuals that 20 were attempting to speak to some of your leaders, I 21 think, as you put it? 22 A: No, he wasn't one (1) of the ones out 23 there that I noticed. 24 Q: Did you recognize any of those ones 25 that were out there?
721 A: Yes. There was a lady and then there 2 was a -- a man, he wasn't dressed -- he didn't have 3 uniform on, I recognized him as being Mark Wright. 4 Q: How did you recognize Mark Wright? 5 Had you know him from before? 6 A: No, I actually seen his picture 7 somewhere in a paper. That's how I recognized him. I 8 remember seeing his picture. 9 Q: Okay. And the female officer, was 10 she in uniform or not? 11 A: I kind of -- I -- I think she was in 12 uniform, but he wasn't, if I'm not mistaken, she was. 13 Q: Did you recognize her? 14 A: No. No, I just later knew -- later 15 we did a -- I don't know if I seen her on the news or 16 somewhere, but then her name was mentioned later on at a 17 later date and then I recognized her from photographs 18 later, or on a news -- news -- 19 Q: And you recognized her as whom? 20 A: Eve -- I think her name was Eve, I 21 don't know. 22 Q: Do you recall what time of day that - 23 - that this might have been, where the police officers 24 you've described were attempting to talk to...? 25 A: It was probably late afternoon,
731 because the sun was above -- just above the trees, facing 2 the west. 3 Q: Do you know if they were successful 4 in speaking to anybody? 5 A: I don't think they were. I don't 6 think -- people just rode by and said stuff to them and I 7 -- I don't think they were successful in actually talking 8 to anybody. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know at all, Mrs. 10 George, what it was that they wanted to talk about? 11 A: No. I don't ever recall hearing them 12 say what they wanted to talk about. 13 Q: Okay. At various times during the 14 day, we were told that there were young people, children 15 primarily, who were doing things like shining mirrors, 16 that is, reflecting the sun's light on mirrors into the 17 police officers that were outside of the Park. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is there anything that you can tell 20 us about that? 21 A: Well, I think the children didn't 22 like the fact that these police -- officers were there 23 and they were -- kept calling and saying, let us talk to 24 your leader. One of them said to them, why don't you go 25 away and chase some real criminals and leave us alone.
741 Like why are you bothering us? 2 So pretty soon one (1) of the kids had 3 this little mirror and realized that it was going to 4 reflect the sun. So they decided they would go and get 5 some of the mirrors out of one (1) of the washrooms and 6 they would probably like to intimidate those officers who 7 were at the fence trying to get somebody to come to the 8 fence line. 9 So they decided they would flash the 10 mirrors into their eyes. 11 Q: All right. Aside from the officers 12 that were outside of the fence, did you see or recognize 13 whether or not there were any on the water? 14 A: Actually, I did notice a OPP boat out 15 on the water, because -- 16 Q: Yeah? 17 A: -- my -- my children wanted to go for 18 a swim and they were out and we noticed the boat was out 19 there, and it was quite close, actually. 20 Q: And how did know it was OPP? 21 A: Because that's what it said on it. 22 Q: All right. Did you stay in the Park 23 that night, Mrs. George? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Did you have any
751 expectations, Mrs. George, as to what would happen on 2 that particular day? 3 A: No. No, I didn't think anything 4 would happen. I didn't -- I just think they were there 5 because they didn't like the fact that we were in the 6 Park and I don't know what they were trying to do, 7 whether they were watching to see if anybody was going to 8 do anything or come -- come outside of there so they 9 could arrest them for whatever reason. I don't know. 10 Q: Can you tell us at all why there was 11 no-one from inside of the Park that was willing to speak 12 to the police? 13 A: Because it wasn't -- why would they 14 want to speak to the police? Because this didn't have to 15 -- this didn't have anything to do with the police. It 16 had to do with the government taking and selling that 17 Park -- those Park lands and why wasn't the government 18 there to talk to these people? 19 That was the faction that they should be 20 talking to, not the police. What were the police going 21 to do? They weren't going to resolve it. So it was kind 22 of pointless to talk to them. 23 Q: That was the sentiment inside the 24 Park, was it? 25 A: Yes.
761 Q: Okay. Do you know whether there was 2 anybody from government that was prepared to come to or, 3 in fact came, to speak to the people inside the Park? 4 A: I don't think there was anybody from 5 the government that was -- came there or -- or was 6 willing to come and speak to the people there. 7 Q: When you say "the government", is 8 there anybody in particular that you refer to? Or -- 9 A: Well, I think because Indian Affairs 10 was involved in that, they should have -- they should 11 have came there and intervened. Somebody should have 12 came and -- and talked. 13 Because now they wanted to talk all those 14 years and now when the people have their land back, 15 nobody wanted to come and talk. They just wanted to come 16 and physically remove, was what my feelings were. 17 Q: All right. Mrs. George, I expect 18 that we may hear some evidence that in fact on the 6th of 19 September, the following day, there in fact was an 20 individual from the Federal Government, by the last name 21 of French. 22 Do you -- does that -- is that at all 23 recognisable to you? 24 A: No. I don't recognize that name. 25 Q: Are you aware of whether or not there
771 was anybody from the Federal Government that came to the 2 -- to the -- either to the barracks or -- 3 A: I think -- 4 Q: -- indeed to the Park, to try to talk 5 to the people in the Park? 6 A: I think later we heard that there was 7 somebody who came but they didn't talk to everybody. 8 They went to a specific group of people within the Army 9 Camp and tried to get them to leave. 10 But I don't think anybody that I know, 11 like my husband or anybody that -- like that was spoken 12 to. 13 Q: When you say a specific group of 14 people were approached, did -- do you know who that -- 15 who is that you're referring to? 16 A: I think it was Maynard George's 17 family and I'm not sure who else. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: But I know that family was. 20 Q: Before we leave the -- the 5th of 21 September, Mrs. George, is there anything that's 22 remarkable about that day that stands out in your mind 23 that you can tell us about? 24 A: I -- I don't know. I can't remember. 25 Q: Okay. Then we can move then to
781 September the 6th of 1995. And I understand that on -- 2 on that day you were awoken early in the morning by one 3 Robert Isaac? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Can you tell us about that, please? 6 A: He came into our house and he was -- 7 he was pretty upset and said to my husband that he needs 8 to come down with him to the Park, right now, because the 9 -- the police were plowing into the picnic tables and one 10 (1) of the guys was sitting on it and they had gotten 11 knocked off the table and he didn't know if anybody was 12 going to be hurt by their actions. 13 So he thought they better have a little 14 bit more of our own people down there because there was 15 only a couple of them down there that -- that night who 16 were sitting around the fire and kind of keeping a vigil. 17 Q: Firstly, do you recall what time of 18 day it would have been that Mr. Isaac attended at your 19 residence? 20 A: It had to be between 7:00 and 8:00 in 21 the morning. It was -- it was pretty early. 22 Q: All right. And you've described it 23 as -- that he related something along the lines, the 24 police were plowing into tables. 25 Is that the words that you recall?
791 A: Well, he said they rammed the tables 2 with their cruisers, that they were sitting on. 3 Q: Okay. What happens at that point? 4 A: My husband got up and he went -- he 5 went down to the Park with Robert or followed him down. 6 Q: Okay. We've come to learn that 7 Robert Isaac has since passed away? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Did you go to the Park 10 that day, Mrs. George? 11 A: Yeah, I probably did. Like I said, I 12 don't recall too much about the whole day, probably 13 because I had young girls to take care of, young children 14 to take care of and tending to them and -- I -- I 15 probably went down to the Park a couple of times that 16 day. I know I did and took some coffee and some 17 sandwiches or something down there. 18 Q: All right. Mrs. George, do you 19 recall speaking to the S.I.U., that is the Special 20 Investigations Unit -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- on October the 12th of 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And for the record, I -- I'm going to 25 be referring to Inquiry Document 1002276. And do you
801 recall giving -- giving a statement to the Special 2 Investigations Unit and describing to them that you had 3 gone to the Park at about -- between 9:30 and 10:30 that 4 morning and that you were followed by a helicopter? 5 A: Oh, yeah. 6 Q: Does that help you at all? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What can you tell us about that, Mrs. 9 George? 10 A: I went down the dirt road and it was, 11 like, right above me all the way down. 12 Q: When you describe the dirt road, this 13 would be the dirt road inside the Park, adjacent to Army 14 Camp Road, you've told us about earlier? 15 A: Yes. And I just thought it was 16 strange that they would follow me down that road. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Or I don't know if they were 19 following me or they were -- it seemed like they were 20 because they were right above the car all the time that I 21 travelled down the road. 22 Q: You've described when you had 23 observed a helicopter earlier while in the Park, that you 24 were able to make out individuals within the helicopter 25 and describe their actions.
811 A: Yes. 2 Q: Were you able to on this occasion? 3 A: No, I had to pay more attention to my 4 driving because my children were in the car with me, so 5 if I was paying a lot of attention to the helicopter I 6 probably would have smashed up, but I knew there above me 7 on that road. 8 Q: Okay. As you got to the Park, did 9 you notice anything different on that day from days 10 previous? 11 A: It's really -- I don't -- I don't 12 know. I think there was, like, more of a -- more tension 13 among our own people because of what the police had done 14 earlier that day. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It was more of a -- I guess maybe 17 they were more apprehensive, they didn't know what was 18 going to happen. 19 Q: All right. How did you feel about 20 that given the perceptible increase in tension? 21 A: I just kind of -- I don't know what I 22 thought. I didn't want to think there was anything bad 23 going to happen. I could just -- because we weren't 24 doing anything -- doing anything to -- to make them want 25 to -- I don't think anything was really done to make them
821 want to come up and ram the picnic tables. It was just 2 that these -- they were there having their fire and 3 sitting and keeping a vigil. 4 And I don't know whether words were 5 exchanged or what it was, but I'm sure there wasn't any 6 violent actions taken to make them want to do something 7 like that. 8 Q: You've described for us, on the day 9 previous, that there were numerous checkpoints, I think 10 you've described three (3), perhaps four (4) checkpoints 11 along Army Camp Road. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did you note those, on this day, this 14 is the 6th? 15 A: I think they were still there. I'm - 16 Q: And can you tell us whether there was 17 more officers in terms of the previous days? 18 A: I think there was more. I think I 19 did notice that there were more -- more officers out on 20 the roadway. 21 Q: And at the Park, you had, in your 22 statement to the Special Investigations Unit, on the 12th 23 of October, 1995, described the positioning of tents and 24 concrete blocks around the Park border, that people in 25 the Park were carrying sticks.
831 Does that at all help you, in terms of 2 recalling what you might have observed, when you went 3 back to the Park? 4 A: Well, I think they probably were, I 5 don't know, I -- at this point, I can't recall that. 6 Like, I know there's concrete blocks there and a few 7 tents that were up, but -- 8 Q: Dealing with the concrete blocks 9 first of all, do you know how they would have got there? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And the tents that you seen? 12 What can you tell us about that? 13 A: I don't know. I -- at this point, I 14 -- I don't remember that part. 15 Q: Okay. And that -- and that's fair 16 enough. We understand, from your sister-in-law, Tina 17 George, that you spent a period of time visiting with 18 her, that she was at the maintenance shed? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that, 21 how long you were there, what would have been going on? 22 A: Well, because she had small children 23 too, she had two (2) little girls and I decided I would 24 just stop there and visit with her before going back down 25 to the Park again.
841 And we were sitting outside of the 2 maintenance shed and the roadway runs right -- right 3 beside there, the entrance that everybody was using to go 4 down to the Park, was there -- was through there, and we 5 were just kind of sitting around outside and the girls 6 were playing. 7 And then we noticed a vehicle pulled up 8 and he said, hey, there's -- Mike Cloud was in the 9 vehicle and he said, hey guys, he said, something's going 10 on. It was starting to get later in the evening. 11 He says, there's something going on 12 because, he said that his mother had tried to come to 13 Stoney Point and she actually made it in, I think she 14 walked across the field, and the -- she said the police 15 weren't allowing anybody to leave or anybody to -- 16 anybody new to enter into the Stoney Point -- into built- 17 up area -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- the entrance. 20 Q: When you say Mike Cloud told you 21 this, he said his mother had made it in? 22 A: Yes, Marlene Cloud. 23 Q: All right. And just before we leave 24 the maintenance area, we're also told that there were 25 some gas pumps there and that -- that there was gas in
851 those -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in the tanks? 4 A: Yes. There was a -- I guess it was 5 for Park maintenance or something, I don't know, but I -- 6 I know there was a gas pump there and there was gas still 7 in the tank. I know, because people were filling up 8 their vehicles with gas there. 9 Q: All right. Aside from vehicles, did 10 you notice whether any -- anything else was filled up, by 11 way of containers or? 12 A: No. All I knew was that vehicles 13 were being filled with gas there. 14 Q: Okay. Given the advice that was 15 given by Mike Cloud, to the effect that no one was being 16 allowed in or out of the -- the Stoney Point -- out of 17 the -- the built-up area, what, if anything, did you do? 18 A: It was a concern for me because I had 19 to -- I was supposed to be on shift at midnight that 20 night, and that was down in Kettle Point. 21 So I got on the phone, that was in the 22 maintenance shed, and my sister-in-law, Veril (phonetic), 23 she was on shift that evening until midnight and I told 24 her what I had just been told. 25 And she said, why, what's going on? And I
861 said I don't know. That's -- that's all I know. So if I 2 try to leave here, then I'm sure I'm going to be turned 3 back. So I might -- I may as well not even try. 4 And I talked to her for a while and she 5 asked me how things were going and what people were 6 doing. I said everybody was like down in the Park still. 7 There was people still down there, probably just sitting 8 around the fire. 9 And -- and I -- and I talked to her for 10 quite some time on the phone. And then I -- I don't know 11 if I -- if there was a flurry of cars started to go by. 12 Like I noticed a couple of cars coming through, really, 13 like, flying through. 14 And I started to get a little worried 15 about why these cars were flying through from the Park 16 area. And then I still was on the phone. And I heard 17 some popping sounds. 18 Because in that maintenance shed there was 19 a big garage door and Tina had that big garage door open, 20 it was wide open so. That door faces Army Camp Road. 21 And I didn't know what those popping sounds were. 22 So I told my sister-in-law, and I -- there 23 were some more cars flying through. So I told her I had 24 to get off the phone and go see what was going on. And 25 then there was some more cars and there was J.R.'s, just
871 -- he'd stopped. 2 He did -- really didn't stop. He just 3 slowed down and roll -- and his window was rolled down, 4 and he said, get your kids out of here because the cops 5 have come in and they started shooting. 6 Q: Okay. And when you say "J.R." that 7 is? 8 A: Glen Bressette. 9 Q: All right. What did you do, then, 10 Mrs. George? 11 A: I -- I don't know. I think I was 12 kind of shocked. 13 Q: I take it you knew, at that point 14 then, what the popping sounds were, that you had just 15 heard? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I understand that you were 18 needing gas in your vehicle, and you -- 19 A: Yeah -- 20 Q: -- were doing something in terms of 21 getting some gas from the tanks you've just described? 22 A: Yes. My children had also heard him 23 say that the police had started shooting and they started 24 to scream for me to hurry up. And Tina was kind of 25 rushing around trying to get some personal items and get
881 her kids into a vehicle also. 2 Q: Into your vehicle, or -- 3 A: No, into her own. And then I 4 remembered, I jumped in my car and I got the kids in to 5 the car and then I remembered I didn't have any gas so I 6 had to back up to the pump. 7 And my children jumped out of the car, 8 because they didn't want to stay in the car and I was 9 trying to put gas into the car, but I was just shaking 10 and my kids were crying. 11 Q: Your three (3) daughters were ages 12 six (6), eight (8) and eleven (11) at that point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And they were screaming for me to 16 hurry up because they didn't want the police to come and 17 shoot them. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And I finally got gas in my car and I 20 was trying to tell Tina just to never mind her stuff and 21 to hurry up and bring her children. And she said, yeah, 22 yeah, we're coming, we're coming. 23 And -- because it struck -- it was strange 24 what people take and she was taking time to get her TV 25 and I said never mind the TV, just get yourself out of
891 here. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And so I pulled away and I kept 4 looking in the rear view mirror to see if she was coming 5 behind me with her kids. And I knew I had to take my 6 children to a safe place, so I headed towards the built- 7 up area with them. 8 And I was worried that maybe somebody 9 might shoot at us. I don't know. So I told my children 10 to get down in the car, to stay down below the windows. 11 And then one (1) of them said to me, 12 Mommy, you have red spots on you. One (1) of the girls 13 was in the front seat with me. And it was like this 14 laser. It was -- it was a spot like that and it was 15 pointed at me. 16 Q: And where was the laser on you, or 17 where was the red spot that you're daughter had 18 described? 19 A: I noticed it was -- well, I sat quite 20 -- quite high in the vehicle. I had had a pillow in 21 there, because my husband puts the seat quite far back 22 and it was stuck in that position, so I kind of had to 23 have a pillow to get myself up and move my legs forward. 24 And I was sat quite high in it, and it's 25 actually probably my chest area.
901 Q: Okay. You were driving the vehicle 2 at -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And do you know whereabouts, 7 in terms of on the road back from the maintenance shed to 8 the built-up area, as you've described for us, that you 9 were when you or when your daughter noticed these red 10 dots? 11 A: I was outside of the -- there's a 12 fenced area that -- the built-up area's kind of like 13 fenced in on one (1) end outside of that dirt road, and 14 it was outside of there. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: So it would be here, in that area -- 20 Q: And just in -- all right. And just 21 in reference to the map, you're indicating -- 22 A: Well, no -- 23 Q: -- Mrs. George -- 24 A: -- I think maybe it was a little 25 farther down here. Just outside of the -- there'd be a
911 fence there along here, and then it was down here. 2 Q: And you're indicating an area just to 3 the north, then, of the built-up area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I take it you did take your children 6 to your residence in the built-up area? 7 A: Yes, my older daughter was there. 8 And I took the kids in and told them -- told her to keep 9 them in there and just to stay in one (1) room together 10 and don't come out of the house, because I had to go and 11 find out where their dad and their brother was, because I 12 knew they were still in the Park. 13 Q: All right. So what did you do? 14 A: I got back in my car and I started to 15 head down that dirt road again. And I got -- I didn't 16 get too far down that road and I noticed a car coming up 17 the road. And I knew it was moving quite fast. It 18 wasn't -- it was really travelling. 19 And it was like it was fish-tailing too, 20 because I could see the lights going back and forth. And 21 I didn't know what was going on, but I got to a point 22 where I pulled over a bit to see what -- whose car it was 23 and I noticed it was that "OPP Who" car. 24 And I was just coming to a -- to a road 25 that journeys into the bush that they use, that the guys
921 were using later on. They would go back in that road to 2 go and cut wood. 3 So I turned around in that dirt road and 4 followed the car back up to the gate. And when I got 5 there, Robert Isaac was -- he was the driver of the car 6 and he said to me I need you to go and -- I need you to - 7 - to drive your car and drive to the hospital. 8 And I said, Why? And he was like jumping 9 out of the car and I didn't know who he was going to pull 10 out of the car and he -- then he said, Dudley's been 11 shot. And they opened the back door and they started to 12 pull him out. 13 But as soon as they opened the door, one 14 (1) of his arms flopped out and he was limp. And there 15 was another fellow in there and I -- I don't remember who 16 it was. But I know they got him by the shoulders and by 17 his legs and I told them I can't go because my husband 18 and my son are still down there and my children are here 19 and I can't be the one. 20 And right at that time, Pierre pulled up 21 in that white car and Cully was there, too and it was a - 22 - I think there was such a commotion and everybody was 23 frantic and I told them, Put them in -- put him in 24 Pierre's car, he'll take him, that's his brother. 25 And so they loaded him in there and -- and
931 Cully was -- she was kind of frantic and she was -- I 2 don't -- she was in shock and didn't know what she should 3 do. And so I just kind of opened the door and pushed her 4 into the seat and closed the door and told them to go and 5 they drove out of the gate, but I -- and that was the 6 last I seen of them that evening. 7 Q: And given your training, Mrs. George, 8 what were you able to -- to observe and -- 9 A: I actually didn't even have time to 10 even see if he had a pulse or anything everything was so 11 fast in the need to get him medical help. It just -- 12 everything happened so fast there wasn't even time for 13 that and it never really even dawned on me to even try 14 and check his pulse because he just looked so limp and 15 lifeless. 16 Q: Okay. When you mention Cully, you 17 mean -- 18 A: Carolyn George. 19 Q: All right. You've indicated to us 20 that you were quite concerned about your -- your husband 21 and son. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. What happens from there? 24 A: After they left I went back to my 25 house and told my daughter what had happened with Dudley.
941 And stressed again that they not come out of the house, 2 that they stay in the house because I was going to go 3 down in the Park and see where my husband and my son 4 were. 5 And I was just getting done and getting 6 ready to leave when Marlin Simon came to the house and he 7 said to me, Judas wants you at the gate now. And I just 8 thought to myself, now, I didn't know what to expect. 9 Q: Okay. I think perhaps we -- before 10 we move on, Mr. Commissioner, I wonder if this is a time 11 when we might break. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We said we'd 13 break around 1:00. This is a good time. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: Sure. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 16 for lunch now. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Please. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 19 adjourned until 2:20. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 1:05 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 2:20 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
951 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Mrs. George, we had left off just 3 before the break and you were telling us that you had 4 returned to your children after being unable to transport 5 Dudley to the hospital. 6 You had been requested by Mr. Isaac if you 7 would use your vehicle, I think you told us, but because 8 of your concern for your husband and -- and son, you had 9 to turn them down. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You then told us, I think, that you 12 had returned to your residence to ensure that your 13 children would follow your previous directions? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then at that moment, Marlin Simon 16 attended at your residence and advised you that your 17 husband, Judas, wanted you at the front gate? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Would you just take it 20 from there, please? 21 A: So I told him, I'll -- I'll be right 22 out there and when I got there my husband's car was 23 parked facing the gate, in the -- to the -- off to the 24 left-hand side of the gatehouse when I was facing it and 25 I got out of the car and asked him what was wrong and he
961 said that Nicholas had been shot. 2 And I asked him what he meant and he said 3 he has a hole in his back. He was sitting in the 4 passenger side of the car and we got him to lean forward 5 so I could look at his back and there was a hole in his 6 back the size of my husband's finger -- index finger. He 7 could -- if he put his finger up to it, he could have put 8 his finger right in that hole, that's how round the hole 9 was. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And there was also -- he had a graze 12 on one (1) side of his back; I can't remember which side, 13 if it was the same side of the other side. And then he 14 said, You have to go out there and get him an ambulance 15 and just go to the hospital. 16 Q: When he said, Out there, you took 17 that to mean outside of the gates? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Because we didn't have a phone or 21 anywhere to call from, so I said I would and I got in the 22 red Nova and I drove out of the gate onto Army Camp Road, 23 going, I guess, south. And I travelled onto that -- the 24 ramp that turns onto Army Camp Road, headed west, and 25 there was cruisers, police cruisers, on both sides of the
971 road. I don't know how many. 2 I know there was at least one (1) on the - 3 - on the north side and there was a couple on the south 4 side of the road, just as the ramp was merging onto 5 Highway 21, but I didn't see anybody in the cruisers or 6 anybody standing beside them or anywhere. And I -- so I 7 did a U-turn on the road and I pulled up to the ones that 8 were on the south side of the road. 9 Q: You're talking about the police 10 cruisers? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And I still didn't see anybody and I 14 couldn't figure out where these people had gone to, so I 15 stopped my car and I got out and I went around to the 16 back of my car. And as soon as I got around to the back 17 of my car, several police jumped out of the ditch, 18 pointing guns at me and told me to get down on the ground 19 -- raise my hands in the air and get down on the ground. 20 I did put my hands in the air, but I 21 refused to lay on the ground. 22 Q: Why did you refuse? 23 A: Because I didn't do anything wrong. 24 I was looking for an ambulance for my son and I didn't 25 think I had to lay on the ground for that, so I refused.
981 If I had done something wrong, I probably would have laid 2 on the ground, but why should I? I didn't do anything to 3 those people and neither did my son. 4 And I told -- and they asked me what I 5 wanted after I refused a couple of times to lay on the 6 ground, and I told them if they wanted me to lay on the 7 ground, then they were going to have to push me onto the 8 ground. 9 And they asked me what I wanted, and I 10 said, I need an ambulance for my son, because he's been 11 shot. And they said, Why should we get you an ambulance? 12 To me that was -- when you ask police 13 officers for help, I thought they were supposed to be 14 there to help people. And that's not what they were 15 there for. 16 And I said to them, they had better get me 17 an ambulance, because this is just a young man. To me 18 he's a child, he's a young boy. And I was very upset 19 with the fact that they chose to question why I should 20 need an ambulance and why they should give me one. 21 So I probably swore at them and demanded 22 them to give me an ambulance. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: They finally agreed that they would 25 get me one, but they said they were not going to send the
991 ambulance to where my son was, that I would have to bring 2 him out to the highway. 3 Q: Did they tell you why they would not 4 go in and they wanted you instead to bring your son out 5 to the highway? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Let me just back up, if I may, Mrs. 8 George. You described the number of vehicles on pre -- 9 on a previous occasion and in particular, in your SIU 10 statement of October 12th of '95. And you described at 11 that time that there were four (4) cruisers around the 12 ramp and three (3) on the opposite side of the road. 13 Does that help you at all today, in terms 14 of refreshing your memory? 15 A: There probably were a large number. 16 I didn't count -- I -- I don't know. 17 Q: And initially when you approached the 18 vehicles, there was no personnel around, there were no 19 officers to be seen? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And it wasn't until you exited your 22 vehicle that they appeared? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you've described them as pointing 25 guns at you. I wonder if you could tell us how they were
1001 dressed, firstly, and secondly, the kinds of -- of 2 weapons or guns that they had? 3 A: They were in very dark clothing. I'm 4 not sure what kind of gear. Might have been grey or 5 black, because I didn't see them right away and it was 6 hard to see them in the ditch. 7 And the guns that they pointed at me were 8 -- I don't know guns. They were long. 9 Q: Okay. It was -- it was a rifle-type, 10 as opposed to a handgun, is that -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And in terms of numbers 13 of officers, could you provide us an estimate at all? 14 A: I don't know any -- I know there was 15 more than probably three (3) or four (4) of them. There 16 was quite a number of guns being pointed at me. 17 Q: You've indicated that somebody had 18 suggested to you, or said to you, why should we get you 19 an ambulance? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you -- do you know who it was that 22 might have said that? 23 A: It appeared to be the -- the one that 24 was right in the front. I don't know. The one (1) 25 officer who's -- who appeared to be more in front of the
1011 rest of them. 2 Q: All right. And you've told us that, 3 finally, they agreed that they would get you an 4 ambulance. 5 Can you tell -- tell us or give us an 6 estimate as to how much time had elapsed from the time 7 that you had asked them for an ambulance to when they 8 agreed? 9 A: I don't know. Maybe about five (5) 10 minutes. I think they had some kind of discussion 11 amongst each other or -- I don't -- it -- it took them a 12 while to agree to give me one. 13 Q: And after they agreed to giving you 14 an ambulance, or providing you with an ambulance, they 15 told you what you would have to do. What did you do as a 16 result of that? 17 A: I said, Okay, I would bring him out 18 to the road. I only agreed to it because I didn't know 19 to what extent the injury was to my son's back. And I 20 knew he needed medical attention. 21 Q: I take it, then, that you would have 22 went back into the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes, I got in the car and I drove it 24 back in there, and I told my husband what they said, and 25 he said, Okay, you can -- we'll wait until we see the
1021 ambulance coming before you take him out there. 2 Q: All right. Now Nicolas was still 3 sitting in your husband's vehicle? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: This is a dark-coloured Trans-Am? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Blue or black? 8 A: Blue. 9 Q: Okay. And how long did you wait 10 until an ambulance did show up? I gather one did show 11 up. 12 A: Yes. We waited for a while before we 13 seen the lights coming because my husband said, If I had 14 to take him out there somebody had better go with me. So 15 it was agreed that my sister-in-law Tina would come out 16 there with me. 17 Q: Okay. And where did Tina ride with 18 you? 19 A: When I got -- when I got into the 20 driver's seat, she rode in the back seat behind me. 21 Q: All right. And are you able to 22 estimate for us how long it took until the ambulance 23 arrived when you said that you could see it coming, you 24 could see its lights? 25 A: I don't know, maybe ten (10) minutes.
1031 Q: I take it it had its emergency lights 2 activated? 3 A: We can see the lights coming, yeah, 4 when it was coming, but I don't think there was a siren, 5 but I think it was just the lights. 6 Q: And do you recall which direction it 7 came from? 8 A: It came from the west, towards Kettle 9 -- down our -- down Highway 21 -- 10 Q: From -- 11 A: -- from the west. 12 Q: -- from the direction of Kettle 13 Point? A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. So once it arrives, what 15 happens? 16 A: My husband said, Okay, you can drive 17 out there now. So, we got into the other vehicle because 18 I had said not to move my son because of the hole being 19 in his back. And any kind of injury that occurs close to 20 the spine, I knew that you didn't want to move him, 21 especially if there was something embedded in there. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: So we got in the car and we drove out 24 there and we had only drove onto that ramp and parked 25 behind the cruisers that were there. We didn't get right
1041 onto Highway 21 this time. We only pulled that far. 2 And then we got out of the car, started to 3 get out of the car, and the ambulance was across the road 4 on the south side of Highway 21, with the other cruisers. 5 And it had pulled in -- it was facing in a position that 6 was almost, like, on an angle, not north and south, but 7 where it had turned, but its back doors were facing us. 8 Q: All right. And you're on the ramp of 9 -- of -- 10 A: Yes, we're off the -- 11 Q: -- off Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes, we're off the side of the ramp, 13 on the right-hand side, behind the cruisers that are 14 parked there. I pulled in behind them and then we 15 started to get out. 16 And the same thing, they jumped out of the 17 ditch and -- or around from the front of their cruisers 18 and pointed guns at us and said to us, You bitches, put 19 your arms in the air, put your hands in the air and get 20 away from that car, all three (3) of you's out of that 21 car. 22 And my sister-in-law, she just started to 23 go off on them, she was swearing at them. And I said, 24 We're not bitches. 25 And I just didn't really pay too much
1051 attention to what they wanted us to do, I just said, 2 You're not moving my son out of this vehicle, he has an 3 injury to his back and nobody's moving him until the 4 ambulance attendants come across the road. 5 Q: Where were the ambulance attendants 6 at that moment? 7 A: They were across the road, talking 8 with the police. They were outside of the ambulance and 9 they were standing there with the police and they were 10 talking to them. 11 Q: And you've told us that the doors on 12 the ambulance were facing toward you. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Were the doors open? 15 A: I think at -- I don't think at that 16 point they were. 17 Q: Did it seem to you that the ambulance 18 attendants, and I gather there was more than one (1)? 19 A: Yes, there was two (2). 20 Q: That -- did it appear to you that 21 they were prepared to come across the road? 22 A: Not -- 23 Q: That is to say, did it seem to you 24 they had any equipment out, gurneys or any such thing? 25 A: Not at that time, no.
1061 Q: Okay. Go on from there if you would, 2 please? 3 A: And my sister-in-law kept hollering 4 at the police who were in the -- pointing the guns at us 5 and she just -- she was tell -- she was telling them who 6 -- what was wrong with them for shooting a kid. And she 7 was just totally -- she was just really verbal with them. 8 And I thought I couldn't do that because I 9 had to concentrate on getting help for my son, so I just 10 let her keep on saying what she was saying to them. And 11 I looked over and I asked -- I kind of hollered, I think, 12 Why aren't the -- why aren't the ambulance coming across 13 to get him? I said, Because he's not being moved out of 14 here. You're not taking him across -- walking him across 15 the road. 16 And I was upset with that because they 17 weren't -- it seemed like they weren't being allowed to 18 come across the road for quite some time. And then when 19 they finally agreed to let them come across because I 20 said, You -- he needs to be removed out of the car by 21 people who know what they're doing, so they're not doing 22 injury to his spine. 23 And so they got their doors open and the 24 stretcher and they brought a back board and then when 25 they did come across they told us to get away from the
1071 car, but I wouldn't. I went around to the front of the 2 car and I went to the passenger side where my son was 3 because I didn't want anybody pulling him out of the car. 4 And I watched and they had one (1) -- I 5 shut the ignition off and the one (1) ambulance attendant 6 got in from the driver's side and the other one came 7 around to the passenger side. And they were still trying 8 to make me keep back and my sister-in-law was on the 9 other side of the car still -- still hollering at the 10 police and the attendants -- I recognized them. 11 They were quite frequent to one (1) of the 12 houses where I did home-care services. They came quite 13 frequently. And even when they were across the road I 14 said, How come you're not coming to help us? What's 15 wrong with you? I said, You know me; you've been to my 16 workplace. I haven't done anything to anybody, how come 17 you don't want to help us? 18 Q: Did they respond to you at all? 19 A: No. It was like they weren't being 20 allowed to, I think; that's the feeling that I get is 21 that they weren't being allowed to because usually when 22 an ambulance shows up they're, like -- they're right 23 there ready to do their jobs and they -- they were being 24 prevented from doing their job. 25 Q: All right. Let's just stay with that
1081 for a moment, Mrs. George. You -- you've used the term, 2 It was quite some time before they came across the road. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Are you able at all to estimate the 5 amount of time and I recognize that this was very 6 difficult for you then and it -- and it seems even now? 7 A: I -- I don't know, I can't guess. It 8 just seemed like it was a very long time because I've 9 seen ambulance attendants come in and start to do their 10 job. They just ca -- they come, they ask questions -- 11 they ask a few questions and they get busy doing what it 12 is that they're supposed to do for that person who is 13 sick or injured. And for them to just stand there and 14 have to wait to be told that now they can come across the 15 road and do their job? 16 It was like they were being told something 17 there, being briefed on something, being warned of 18 whatever. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I don't know. I -- I can't even 21 guess at the time. 22 Q: After they came across the road, how 23 long did it take them to get your son onto, you said, a 24 back board? 25 A: Yeah, they brought a smaller back
1091 board where, I think it might have come from the waist 2 up, that they can stabilize his neck onto there so that 3 there's no further injury to him. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And they got him out of the car and 6 they put him on the stretcher. And then I tried to 7 follow across the road, but before I could do that, I had 8 noticed when -- I had turned around at some point and was 9 still looking at the police who had their guns pointed at 10 us. And Tina was being still really verbal with them and 11 telling them they were assholes and why would they want 12 to shoot unarmed men, women and children. What's wrong 13 with them? 14 And she said, You people are disgusting. 15 You're the most disgusting people on the face of this 16 earth. You're supposed to be there to provide security 17 and help people. 18 And, actually, one (1) of the police 19 actually lowered their gun and put the gun down. Not let 20 -- not down physically, but lowered it so it wasn't 21 pointing at us. 22 Q: What did you gather, if anything, 23 from that, Mrs. George? 24 A: At least, I thought, one (1) of them 25 were human, had some kind of compassion for other people.
1101 Q: As the emergency medical personnel 2 were exiting your son from the vehicle, where were the 3 police officers at that point? 4 A: There was still a lot of them across 5 the road. And there was a couple that were right -- kind 6 of right beside them telling us to stay back. And when 7 they took my son across the road, they said I couldn't go 8 with him. 9 And I said, What do you mean, I can't go 10 with him? He's just a child. You just can't take away 11 my child and not let me go. 12 And they said, No, you're not going with 13 him. 14 Q: Were you physically prevented from 15 accompanying your son? 16 A: They still had the guns pointed at us 17 when they told me I couldn't go. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: What was I supposed to do? Run 20 across there and have them shoot at me, too, or have them 21 assault me in front of my son? I wasn't going to do 22 that. 23 Q: Did you see them load your son into 24 the ambulance? 25 A: Yes.
1111 Q: Right. 2 A: I seen two (2) of them get into the 3 back. 4 Q: Two (2) of whom, Mrs. George? 5 A: Two (2) people. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: I don't know. Two (2) people and 8 then the doors closed and it -- the ambulance drove away. 9 Q: Can we assume from -- from that, that 10 one (1) of them may have been a police officer or a -- 11 A: Yes, because -- 12 Q: -- someone else was driving? 13 A: -- I only seen two (2) ambulance 14 attendants. So if two (2) got in the back, there must 15 have been somebody else. 16 Q: As the emergency personnel were 17 dealing with your son, was there any conversation going 18 on to your recollection? 19 A: No, they -- they never even asked me 20 questions, I don't think, about my son. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I don't recall them asking me 23 anything. It was like -- because usually they do. They 24 say, How old is your son, you know, they ask questions of 25 people when they come to pick them up in an ambulance.
1121 They ask people's ages, how is their general health, you 2 know, allergies, that type of thing, and none of that was 3 asked. 4 Q: All right. And so -- 5 A: It was like they were unusually 6 quiet. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: For whatever reason. Whether they 9 were told not to ask -- to ask questions or I don't know. 10 It just seemed very strange. 11 Q: And aside from the wounds that you've 12 described on your son, what -- what was his condition? 13 Was he conscious, for example? 14 A: Yes, he was conscious. I think he 15 was just -- maybe he was in a -- he was probably in a 16 state of shock. To me, he was too quiet. 17 Q: Okay. And after you see him loaded 18 into the ambulance and people get into the ambulance and 19 the ambulance leaves, what happens? 20 A: My sister-in-law and I got back into 21 the car and when I turned the ignition off, I didn't turn 22 the lights off, so the battery went dead and it wouldn't 23 start. 24 So I just said to her, Okay, we'll just 25 leave the car here and we'll walk back. And she said,
1131 No, we're not leaving the car here. Oh, well, how are we 2 going to get the car back? And she said, Just put it -- 3 take it out of gear and I'll push you. And she got out 4 to the front of the car and she started to push so I 5 jumped out and tried to steer at the same time. And we 6 both pushed the car back -- backwards around the ramp and 7 back onto Army Camp Road. 8 And once we got onto Army Camp Road and 9 they -- the fellas at the gate noticed we were pushing 10 the car, they run out to help us to push it all the way 11 back in. 12 Q: All right. You had mentioned that 13 you had parked behind the police vehicles on the ramp? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Were they still there? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And were the officers still there? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did you ask for their assistance or 20 did they offer? 21 A: No, I didn't ask and no, they didn't 22 offer. 23 Q: And I take it that after people came 24 from the Camp -- or, you described them as the young 25 fellows, came from the Camp to push the vehicle back, it
1141 was pushed back into the Camp? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And what did you do after 4 that, Mrs. George? 5 A: I thought about my son being taken to 6 the hospital by himself and I wanted to go and I wanted 7 to know how he was. And my husband and I sat in that 8 gatehouse for a long time listening because we didn't 9 have a phone. We had the radio on and at some point, one 10 (1) of the radio stations said there had been shootings 11 and that there was two (2) -- two (2) fatalities. 12 And I became very concerned because I knew 13 that Dudley was the -- one (1) of the ones who had been 14 shot. And that was -- I kind of knew even from looking 15 at him that it was a fatal gunshot wound and I didn't 16 know who the other fatality was. And all I knew was that 17 my son was gone and they wouldn't let me go. 18 I wanted so desperately to leave there, to 19 be with my son. It seemed like we sat there forever and 20 then a car came and it was Bonni Bressette. She said she 21 was allowed to come through the police roadblock so that 22 she could take women and children out of there. 23 And she went back to see if she can find 24 anybody that wanted to leave with here so I told my 25 husband I was taking my children and I was going to the
1151 hospital to go and see my son. 2 Q: In terms of time, Mrs. George, can 3 you estimate what time that was? I know you've indicated 4 that you had sat at the guard -- guardhouse -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- was it? For quite some time. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Would we now be into the early 9 morning hours of September the 7th, 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And when Bonni Bressette 12 arrived with the information and advice that she was 13 going to find people to accompany her out of the Camp, 14 you took that opportunity, did you? 15 A: Yes. I went to the house and went 16 and got my children, loaded in them -- into the car and 17 came back to the gate to wait for her to come through 18 with her vehicle so I can follow behind. 19 Q: And do you recall what kind of 20 vehicle that Mrs. Bressette was driving? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: All right. Go ahead. What happens 23 from there? 24 A: So when she pulled out there was 25 maybe a couple other vehicles that followed behind so I
1161 followed in behind them and we headed towards Kettle 2 Point on Highway 21 and at Ravenswood Road there were all 3 kinds of reporters. 4 And, I don't know, it just seemed like 5 there was a lot of people there and we slowed down and 6 reporters were asking us what happened. And I don't 7 know, I was very upset at that point. I think I was in 8 tears. 9 Q: Okay. Let -- let me ask you how you 10 knew they were reporters, first of all. 11 A: They had cameras and microphones like 12 they wanted to record what you were saying. 13 Q: All right. Was there any reason that 14 you could see why they didn't come up to the Army Camp? 15 Why would they be at Ravenswood? 16 A: Because there was roadblocks. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And we continued on to Kettle Point 19 and when you got to the curve there, there was a big 20 fire, there was a lot of people on the -- on the highway 21 and there was a big fire in the middle of the road. 22 Q: Okay. And just before we get there, 23 the roadblocks that you talk about, at Ravenswood, I take 24 it that that was a police roadblock? 25 A: Yes.
1171 Q: And were you impeded or were you 2 prevented, or -- or even slowed? 3 A: No. I only slowed down because the 4 vehicles in front of me slowed down. And I had my window 5 open to hear what was being said. And that's how come I 6 know, like, the people were... 7 Q: Did you say anything to the 8 reporters, to your recollection? 9 A: Yeah, I think I hollered something to 10 the effect that, Why do you want to know now, why -- 11 where were all of you reporters when -- before things 12 like this happened, like, to be able to report to people, 13 why this was taking place. And why do you wait til 14 something bad happens and somebody's killed. 15 Q: All right. So you proceeded down the 16 road and the fire that you have described, it's on 17 Highway 21 near the Kettle Point Plaza? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Were you able to get 20 around that? 21 A: Yes. I turned right and as soon as I 22 got over towards the Plaza, my mother's -- my mother and 23 my step father were there. And they came to the -- they 24 seen my car coming and they came, and my mother had told 25 me she was already at the hospital, and that my son was
1181 fine. 2 But being a parent, I still had to see for 3 myself. And so I told her I was taking the kids to the 4 house, to our house in Kettle Point, and then I was going 5 to go to Strathroy to see my son. 6 And she said, I -- You can't go drive 7 yourself, you can't go over there alone, so I'll go with 8 you. So she came with me. 9 Q: All right. Now just before we -- 10 just before we go there, Mrs. George, when you went to 11 Kettle Point, you went to your house and took your 12 children there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. Did you have occasion to 15 go to any other residences? 16 A: Yes, I stopped at my -- my mother-in- 17 law's house and went in and there was a lot of them 18 sitting around the table. I don't even remember the 19 words -- too many words that were exchanged. They just 20 asked me if my husband was okay, and I said, Yes, he's 21 not -- he really doesn't have any injury that's a 22 concern, maybe a bruise or something. 23 And I -- I was in a hurry. I just stopped 24 to let them know that he was okay and that I think 25 everybody else was okay too, that was down there.
1191 Q: All right. And your mother then 2 accompanied you to the Strathroy Hospital? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you -- do you recall the route 5 that you would have taken? 6 A: I started to go on Highway 21 towards 7 Forest and then tried to go down many of the side roads 8 to -- because Strathroy, if I go the other way, like, 9 it's kind of out of the way. And try to take the 10 shortest route, but every side road I tried to go down, 11 there was police, roadblocks there and telling me I can't 12 go that way. 13 So we went -- travelled all the way out to 14 the other side of Forest to Highway 402 and I got on the 15 highway there, and travelled to the Strathroy turnoff 16 from there. 17 Q: And how long did that trip take you, 18 from Kettle Point to Strathroy, given the route you were 19 obliged to take? 20 A: Well over an hour. 21 Q: Can you tell us what happens once you 22 get to Strathroy, to the hospital? 23 A: I see a lot of police cars on the way 24 in to the hospital. There seemed to be a very large 25 police build-up there.
1201 Q: In the town or at the hospital? 2 A: At the hospital. 3 Q: And when you say a large police 4 build-up, can you estimate, first of all, in terms of 5 police vehicles? 6 A: I don't know. I just know there were 7 a lot of vehicles and there was police outside of the 8 hospital, as well. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And we pulled in and we got stopped 11 right away by a -- by an officer and asked us where we 12 were going, who we were going to see. And I said, I'm 13 going to see my son. 14 Q: Okay. Do you recall if it was a male 15 or female officer? 16 A: I don't know. I don't remember. 17 Q: And having told that person that you 18 were going to see your son, what happened? 19 A: He told me to park my car and then I 20 can go into the hos -- what entrance I could go into. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: And so we parked the car quite a ways 23 over in the lot and got out and went into the hospital 24 entrance, I believe the main entrance to the hospital. 25 Once inside there, I asked where my son was and they
1211 indicated to me that he was -- I don't know, second or 2 third floor. I -- I'm not sure. I know it wasn't the 3 main floor, because I had to get in the elevator. 4 And they told me to sit and wait for a bit 5 and then told me I can go up and see him and my mother 6 and I got into the elevator. We were by ourselves in the 7 elevator and I pushed the floor number and for whatever 8 reason, the elevator didn't go to that floor. 9 The doors opened and I didn't -- wasn't 10 really watching which way the elevator was going and I -- 11 or what floor. I just assumed because we were the only 12 ones in the elevator, it was going to the floor we 13 wanted. 14 And the elevator stopped. The doors 15 opened, and I got out and I started to get out of the el 16 -- walk out of the elevator and there was all kinds of 17 police there. 18 And they told me, you're on the wrong 19 floor. Get back in the elevator. And so I just backed 20 up and closed the doors. We were in the basement of the 21 hospital. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: So I pushed the floor to where we 24 were supposed to go and I got out and went down to the 25 room where my son was supposed to be located. And there
1221 was a police officer or maybe even two (2) outside of his 2 room. 3 And once I walked into the room, his bed 4 was forward, away from the wall and to the back of the 5 room. There was all kinds of -- there was like bright 6 lights set up and some equipment on a table and there was 7 officers, at least one (1) female officer, in there. 8 They were around the back of his bed. And 9 I asked him what -- if he was okay and what they were 10 doing to him. And he said, I don't know. They're 11 putting stuff on my hands. 12 And he said, I think they're -- they said 13 they were trying to test me to see if I fired a gun. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And I -- I didn't realize and nobody 16 said anything to me about my son being under arrest or -- 17 I didn't know what they were doing to him. 18 Q: Okay. Did you make any inquiries of 19 the officers that were present? 20 A: Yeah, I said what do you think you're 21 doing? And they wouldn't answer me. 22 Q: All right. Did you tell your son 23 anything about -- or give him any -- any advice? 24 A: I just told him he didn't have to 25 talk to them if he didn't want to, that he needed to
1231 rest, because then once I got there and I found out he 2 was -- I guess what I would term to be okay, for him not 3 to -- for me not to be there, I was then, again, 4 concerned about my husband being back at the Camp, 5 because I didn't know what was going on there. 6 Q: And -- and just to be clear, did 7 anybody tell you that he was under arrest? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I didn't know why they had the police 11 outside of his door. I don't know, maybe call it -- 12 maybe call me naive or call me what you want, but I 13 didn't think -- why would they arrest him? He didn't do 14 anything wrong to them. If they should be arresting 15 anybody, they should have arrested the -- the one who 16 shot Dudley, not my son. 17 Testing him for firing a gun, why didn't 18 they go find somebody else to go do their tests on? 19 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you'd 20 seen a number of police officers outside of his room and 21 inside the room. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Are you able to provide us with an 24 estimate as to the numbers? 25 A: I don't know, may -- a couple outside
1241 and maybe three (3) or four (4) in the room. At least 2 one (1) was female, I know that. 3 Q: Did you observe any medical 4 personnel? By that I mean, doctors or nurses or 5 anybody -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- identified to you as such? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you have an opportunity to speak 10 to any medical personnel regarding your son's condition? 11 A: No, just the person at the desk. 12 Q: And that would have been the desk 13 downstairs? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And was that person able 16 to help you in so far as satisfying you that your son was 17 okay, or did you come to that assessment on your own? 18 A: I just asked if -- if he was going to 19 be okay, if there was any -- if his spine was in any 20 danger, if there was any danger of him having kind of 21 injury to his spine. And they said no, that he had a 22 dressing on; that they dressed his injuries. 23 Q: All right. And aside from telling 24 him that he didn't have to speak to the police if he 25 didn't want to, did you take any other further measures
1251 with respect to your son? 2 A: I just told him that if he needed to 3 phone me for whatever reason, that his sister was at the 4 house, because we still had a phone hooked up there, that 5 he could call and get me a message. 6 Q: All right. And what happened after -- 7 after that, Mrs. George? 8 A: I -- I sat with him for a while. I 9 don't know how long I was there. Maybe a half hour or 10 so. And it just seemed like he was going to go to sleep. 11 So I told him I was going to go. I was going to leave, 12 but I would come back the next day to see how he was. 13 And so he said, Okay, I'm okay. I'm just 14 going to go to sleep. And I told him that -- and I asked 15 them if they were -- I said, Are you going to do anything 16 else to him? And they said, Oh no, no. We're not going 17 to bother him. 18 Q: Okay. From the time that you arrived 19 at Strathroy Hospital to the time that you would have 20 left, do you know how long you might have been there? 21 A: Maybe an hour. 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 23 you that you would have arrived at approximately 4:30 in 24 the morning, does that -- does that help you at all, Mrs. 25 George?
1261 A: Probably, yeah, that sounds -- 2 Q: Okay. By the time you had left, 3 then, was it getting bright out? Was it -- 4 A: No, I don't think it was. I think it 5 was still dark when I came out. 6 Q: All right. So your mother and I -- 7 your mother and you, pardon me -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- got back in your vehicle and drove 10 back to Kettle Point? 11 A: Oh, when we -- when I came down from 12 my son's room, there were other relatives of mine that 13 were there -- 14 Q: I see. 15 A: -- that came to see him. 16 Q: Earl Cotrelle, perhaps, being one of 17 them? 18 A: Yes, that's my brother. 19 Q: All right. Others, that you can tell 20 us about? 21 A: My aunts and my uncle, Gerry Plain 22 and Marie Plain and Diana Plain. 23 Q: And did they come to Strathroy 24 Hospital from Sarnia? 25 A: Yes.
1271 Q: Did you find out how they learned 2 about Nick's being injured and in the Strathroy Hospital? 3 A: Yes, my mother phoned them. 4 Q: Okay. I take it that because your 5 relatives were there, your brother and others, that you 6 were fairly comfortable in going back to Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I -- I don't see why I should be 10 scared to travel anywhere. I didn't do anything wrong. 11 Q: On your way back to Kettle Point, did 12 you encounter any other roadblocks or impediments to your 13 getting back to your home? 14 A: Yes, on the way back there, I took a 15 different route back. I decided not to go down the main 16 highway. And I told my mother I was going to get her to 17 drop me off at some -- at some point along there and I 18 would just walk across the field to get back there. 19 And it didn't matter, whatever try -- side 20 road I tried to go down I encountered many police at 21 every side road, telling me I couldn't go down the side 22 roads. 23 Q: Okay. And so I understand you were 24 going to take a side road somewhere near to the Army 25 Camp --
1281 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and then traverse from foot on 3 there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Because everyone -- every road or 7 corner I stopped at, they would jump out of the ditch, 8 like there was vans, they were more like vans. 9 And then when we stop -- pull up to slow 10 down, some of them would jump out of the ditch, but there 11 would be one (1) or two (2) standing out near the road, 12 telling us we couldn't turn down that way. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And there was some -- some of them 15 would be in the ditch. 16 Q: And were these people armed? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. So I understand you did not 19 make it back to the Army Camp, but instead went to -- 20 back to Kettle Point? 21 A: Yes, I kept telling my mother she 22 could drop me off and I would walk and she kept saying, 23 No, I can't do that. And I said, Yeah, you -- you can 24 drop me off and she said, No. And the reason she said, 25 No, was because our vehicle was a standard and my mother
1291 didn't know how to drive a standard. 2 Q: Your red Nova? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And so you went back to 5 Kettle Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I understand that you then seen a 8 -- a larger group of people than were there earlier? 9 A: Yes, at the Kettle Point Plaza, 10 around that area there was a lot of cars -- a lot of 11 people. 12 Q: Did you recognize these people? Do 13 you know where they were from? 14 A: Some of them, yes. 15 Q: And who do you remember being there? 16 A: Some people from Walpole Island and 17 some from Sarnia Reserve, Ed Isaac from Walpole and Doug 18 Plain from Sarnia Reserve. 19 Q: Okay. Now, just with respect to 20 these two (2) individuals, had you seen them at the Army 21 Camp or at any place prior to seeing them at the plaza? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you have a chance to talk to them 24 at all? 25 A: Yes, after I took my mother to work -
1301 - she had to work at eight o'clock that morning at the 2 same house where I work. And so I had to go and drop her 3 off because we got back just almost around that time 4 between, probably, quarter to 8:00 and eight o'clock. 5 So I dropped her off and then I went and 6 checked on my kids again at my house in Kettle Point. 7 And I told them if they needed anything they can phone 8 Grandma because she was at work. 9 And then I decided to take a drive down 10 towards Ravenswood Road where there's a restaurant there 11 called, Wallygator's (phonetic), and the road goes right 12 down to the beach and there was also a roadblock there. 13 So I pulled into the little sandy parking 14 area and shut the car off and I can hear the police 15 officers that were at the roadblock saying Judas' car 16 just pulled up, but -- and they said, No, he's not -- 17 he's not driving. He's not the driver, it's a female 18 driver. 19 Q: They were talking on radios or 20 something? 21 A: Radios, yes. It was very still and 22 very quiet out that morning. It was like a wet, damp, 23 foggy, like a -- it was a little misty, rain -- light 24 rain. So it was really -- it -- the air just seemed very 25 still because there was no traffic. There was no cars,
1311 nothing. 2 So I didn't -- I was going to get out of 3 the car and leave it there and go down the beach, but I 4 didn't think my husband would appreciate me leaving his 5 car there so I just got back in and went back to the 6 plaza. 7 Q: All right. When you got back to the 8 plaza, Mrs. George, what was happening there? 9 A: They were planning to do a march 10 towards the Army Camp. It was probably later. It had to 11 be later in the morning or early afternoon or something. 12 I don't know what -- I don't know the exact time. 13 Q: When you say, They were planning, who 14 -- did it seem to you was -- 15 A: I think it was -- I don't know. 16 There was a lot. There was a very large group and there 17 was a lot of councillors from Kettle Point. My 18 stepfather was one (1) of them. 19 And they were waiting for some other 20 chiefs to come from other reserves and they were waiting 21 for Ovide Mercredie. But they were saying that these 22 people weren't going to arrive until four (4) or five (5) 23 hours later which made it more towards evening, like 24 5:00 or 6:00. 25 Q: And Ovide Mercredie was then the
1321 National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So somebody mentioned that they 4 wouldn't be there for some time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: What did you do as a result of that? 7 A: I was upset with the fact that they 8 would wait so long because we didn't know what was 9 happening down there. We didn't know if police were 10 still there and we didn't know what was -- I didn't know 11 what was going to happen, I didn't know if they'd still 12 open fire on the people there. 13 So, I said, Why do we have to wait for so 14 long? And so a cou -- it was Ed Isaac and Doug Plain 15 said, If you want to go now, we'll go with you, we'll 16 walk with you there. So I said, Okay. I was happy with 17 that; that somebody would go with me, because I was so 18 worried. 19 Q: You would have walked on your own? 20 A: Probably. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: But they agreed to come with me, so I 23 started to walk. And there was a few people from Kettle 24 Point who asked us what we thought we were doing, why 25 were going to -- why we should take it upon ourselves to
1331 start walking down there. And I said, Because my 2 husband's down there, that's why, and my family. 3 So they just kinda stood back, didn't try 4 to stop us, but -- and then everybody just followed in. 5 Q: And when you say everybody, how many 6 people were -- were walking? 7 A: A lot of people. Once I started 8 walking and looked behind, there was probably a couple, 9 maybe over a couple hundred people. 10 Q: Okay. And on this walk, I take it 11 you would have had to go past the roadblocks or police 12 checks -- 13 A: Yes, at -- 14 Q: -- that you had described earlier? 15 A: Yes, at Ravenswood Road. 16 Q: And what, if anything, happened in 17 that encounter? 18 A: They kind of stood across the road 19 and gave a warning that we wouldn't be safe if we walked 20 past them -- walked past that point, that they couldn't 21 guarantee our safety. 22 Q: And what did you take that to mean? 23 A: I don't know. They couldn't 24 guarantee my safety anyway, after shooting one (1) of us. 25 What kind of guarantee was I looking for from them? I
1341 wasn't looking for anything from them anymore. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So I just walked past them and said, 4 If you want to shoot me, then go ahead, because I'm 5 walking past you anyway. And they didn't, they just kind 6 of split up and parted their ways and parted their little 7 line on the road and let us go by. 8 Q: All right. And now I take it from 9 your -- your testimony that you were at the front of the 10 group? 11 A: Towards the front, yes. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Yes. I think probably once we got to 14 that point there was a few people who were maybe a little 15 faster walkers and got out maybe a little bit ahead of 16 us, I'm not sure. 17 But yeah, I was at the front of the group. 18 Q: All right. And what was happening 19 during this march from the Plaza at Kettle Point to the 20 Army Camp? 21 A: There was -- it wasn't just people 22 walking, there was vehicles also. And they were blowing 23 their horns and people were shouting and hollering, just 24 to let them know we were coming. 25 Q: Okay. Hmm, hmm. And do you know who
1351 was left at the Army Camp? You know, you mentioned, 2 certainly, your husband and your family. And we know 3 from your testimony and from other testimony that there 4 were a number of women and children that left with Mrs. 5 Bressette. 6 A: Yes. I don't know who was all left 7 behind to tell you the truth. I don't -- I know there 8 was a lot of people still there because there wasn't that 9 many cars that went out in front of me, between my car 10 and Bonni Bressette's car. I don't think there was that 11 many vehicles. 12 There might have been the families that 13 were back in that one (1) corner, Maynard George family, 14 them people will go -- their family back in there. 15 Q: And how long did this march take? 16 A: I don't know, maybe an hour. 17 Q: Okay. And you eventually arrived at 18 the Army Camp. What did you see and what did you do 19 then? 20 A: Well, I knew that they saw us coming 21 because you can see them up on that tower over the fire 22 hall, and people were just glad. The people in there 23 that were left there, were glad that these people came 24 for them. 25 Q: There was a sense of relief, was
1361 there? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Did you talk to your husband 4 at that point? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: There was a lot of -- emotions were 8 very high. 9 Q: You had described a roadblock with a 10 number of police vehicles on the ramp area of 21 -- 11 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Was that block or barr -- checkpoint 14 still there? 15 A: I don't think so. I don't recall 16 seeing any checkpoint there when we came back. 17 Q: All right. And do you recall seeing 18 any police around on that day, beyond what you've already 19 told us about on -- on the march? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. I understand, Mrs. 22 George, that at some point in time during that day, 23 someone came to see you or someone was there and plans 24 were made to go and get your son. 25 A: Yes.
1371 Q: I wonder if you would tell us about 2 that, please. 3 A: I don't know if it was that day or -- 4 it was later on in the day, anyway. And we were at our 5 house and Ron George came and he said, I have -- I don't 6 have a very good feeling about Nick being over there, and 7 I think we need to go and get him. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: So -- 10 Q: So you knew Ron George to be a 11 lawyer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And I didn't ask any questions. I 15 just was relieved that I could go back over there and see 16 my son again. 17 Q: Back to Strathroy Hospital? 18 A: Yes. Or bring him home. 19 Q: Okay. So what happens? 20 A: So my husband agreed that I would go 21 with Ron to go and get him, to go and get Nick. And we 22 drove over there and we went to the hospital. And we 23 went in to go and get him, went to the desk only to find 24 that he wasn't there. 25 Q: Okay. Was it explained to you where
1381 he was? 2 A: Yes, they said the police took him to 3 the Strathroy detach -- OPP Detachment and that he was 4 under arrest for attempted murder. 5 Q: Now did you get this information from 6 a police officer or from -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- medical -- 9 A: From the people at the desk. 10 Q: Okay, all right. What -- and what 11 happened? 12 A: We went back out to the vehicle or to 13 Ron's vehicle and went to the detachment. And I stayed 14 in the car and he went in to go and get him. 15 Q: Did Mr. George, that is Ron George, 16 tell you anything about what he thought or felt about the 17 fact that your son was moved? 18 A: He said they can't do that to him. 19 He's just -- they can't arrest him without letting you 20 know or notifying parents or having somebody else, a 21 lawyer or somebody present for him, because of his age. 22 Q: Okay. And did you provide anybody 23 with any kind of such consent, Mrs. George, to move your 24 son? 25 A: No.
1391 Q: All right. 2 A: I didn't even know he was being 3 moved. 4 Q: You did not go into the Strathroy 5 Detachment, is that -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- that's right? 8 A: I stayed in the car. 9 Q: Okay. Was there a reason for that? 10 A: I didn't want to go in, because I 11 knew if I went in there, I would scream and holler at 12 these people. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And I didn't -- I didn't want to 15 jeopardize having my son being let out of there. 16 Q: Okay. And was he let of there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Ron brought him back out. My son had 20 pyjamas on, hospital pyjamas. 21 Q: Did he say what happened to his 22 clothing? 23 A: He said they took it. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: That the police took it at the
1401 hospital, took his clothing, and, he said, his money and 2 his ID. And Ron come out and he said -- when they came 3 out, he said, It's a good thing we got here when we did, 4 because they were having Nick prepare a statement. And 5 they were just getting ready get him to sign it, as to 6 whatever -- what events had taken place. 7 And I don't know what the statement said. 8 I didn't -- I didn't ask him. I only knew that they just 9 -- I asked him what happened when I had left the 10 hospital. And he said, Well, every time I would try to 11 fall asleep they would wake me up. 12 They would shake me and wake me up and ask 13 me more questions and they'd keep at me and then they'd 14 let me be for a little while. And then I'd start to fall 15 asleep again and they'd do the same thing and they kept 16 doing it to me, until finally he must have been so 17 exhausted they said, Well, if you give -- if you agree to 18 give us a statement, we'll leave you alone and we'll let 19 you sleep. 20 So that's when he said, Okay, and then 21 they took him to the Detachment. 22 Q: All right. You managed to get him 23 back, then, to your home? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Did you have any further
1411 dealings with any medical personnel as a result of your 2 son's injuries, Mrs. George? 3 A: Yes, we -- we got a letter, I think, 4 from the Strathroy Hospital that said there was something 5 in his back, but it -- I think it was clear. They said 6 it was clear. I'm -- I'm not sure. I know they did some 7 kind of a -- maybe it was an ultrasound or x-ray or they 8 said there wasn't anything. 9 They couldn't see anything lodged in 10 there, but they needed to do a follow-up treatment or 11 whatever with him. 12 Q: All right. What did you think about 13 that? 14 A: I figured if they were real medical 15 personnel and they were really concerned about my son 16 they should have taken care of him while he was there and 17 not let their hospital be used for police services; for 18 them to -- to pick at my son while he was injured, using 19 a hospital room as a room for interrogating a young 20 fellow and doing tests on him. 21 And that's not what hospitals are supposed 22 to be for, but that's what they allowed that hospital to 23 be and I'd be damned if I'd take my child back there. 24 Q: Okay. Did you have any further 25 medical attention visited upon your son other than from
1421 Strathroy Hospital, then? 2 A: Yes, I took my -- when we got my son 3 home, his -- his wounds were getting infected. There was 4 a lot of pus and -- building up on the -- the graze on 5 the side and on his back. So we had -- we had a 6 traditional healer come and dress his wounds and take 7 care of him. They did a poultice and a dressing on him. 8 And within a couple of days his -- the signs of infection 9 were gone and the wounds were starting to heal and we 10 were satisfied with that. 11 His -- the hole in his back had healed 12 over, but we -- there was something in there because you 13 could feel it. There was a -- a bump underneath the skin 14 that you could feel after it had healed over. And one 15 (1) day Jim Kennedy from the SIU came or telephoned and 16 asked us if we would be willing to have whatever was in 17 Nick's back removed. 18 Q: Did you do that? 19 A: Yes, we took him to our own family 20 doctor in Forest, Dr. Walker. 21 Q: That would have been on January the 22 25th of 1996? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And --
1431 Q: What happened? 2 A: Jim Kennedy went with us. I think he 3 met us there and we went in, my husband and I and Nick. 4 And Dr. Walker removed, I think, two (2) small pieces of 5 glass that were from the window of the bus. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know what became of 7 those two (2) small pieces of glass? 8 A: I think maybe Jim Kennedy has them. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Took them. I'm not sure, but I think 11 that's what happened to them. 12 Q: Mrs. George, I recognize that this 13 has been -- been difficult for you and I know you're 14 reluctant to -- to speak about this. Can you tell us 15 what the affect of this was on your son that you could 16 observe, or your other children or -- or your husband? 17 A: I think even to this day this event 18 has had great trauma to my family. 19 My husband still to this day can't sleep 20 without having something like the TV or the radio on. He 21 doesn't -- he has a problem sleeping and he has to have 22 always hearing something, because the sound of silence he 23 -- he just doesn't -- doesn't rest. 24 And I -- and he's been that way ever since 25 the shooting. And my son, after that he had very, very
1441 deep and maybe still has a little bit, deep emotional 2 problems, anger. And he doesn't know how to -- he had to 3 go to a healing lodge to help him deal with that, with 4 the anger that he was building up over a number of years. 5 There was never really any kind of help 6 given to the people there. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And we were kind of just left to our 9 own resources within ourselves. We had people from other 10 nations come and offer to help us, but as far as any kind 11 of help from what I'll term as the -- however they want 12 to term themselves, at Kettle Point, there was never 13 really anything there. 14 They -- they classified themselves as 15 having some kind of a crisis that lasted however many 16 days they said, and once that was over, it was over. But 17 I think a lot of people including my family -- my 18 daughters were very -- especially my youngest daughter. 19 She does not like police in uniform. She just -- if a 20 child were in trouble and they were said to go to a 21 police officer, my daughter wouldn't. 22 She has no respect for any kind of person 23 in uniform because of what had happened. She -- when we 24 travelled after that, outside of Stoney Point, she 25 wouldn't -- as a small girl five (5) or six (6) years old
1451 she was, she would stick their -- her tongue out at them. 2 And sometimes we had to stop where maybe they were doing 3 police checks for drunk drivers and she was in the 4 vehicle. She would duck down in the vehicle because she 5 was scared. 6 She's -- they just -- I refused to give in 7 to intimidating -- intimidating tactics by police, by 8 having them pull us over. And I feel that I have the 9 right to drive down the road or go where I please without 10 being intimidated by them. 11 And I refuse to give in to those tactics. 12 I have the right, just like anybody else does in this 13 country, to go and do as I -- where I choose to travel 14 and not be intimidated by them. 15 But my family, I think today, still 16 suffers from what happened that night. 17 Q: Okay. Mrs. George, we've afforded 18 other witnesses an opportunity to perhaps comment on 19 their own views as to how this might have all been 20 prevented or otherwise avoided. And it's something that 21 Mr. Commissioner at the end of the day will include in 22 his report. 23 Do you have anything to offer us in that 24 respect? 25 A: Well, I think if -- if the government
1461 had come and give back the land or had even come and 2 talked to the people that were in the -- that chose to go 3 in and take a stand for what was right for -- rightfully 4 theirs, if they had chose to come and sit at a table with 5 them and talk and -- and -- about these things, then I 6 believe that this would never have happened. It wouldn't 7 have escalated to the point that it did, even though my 8 own people were not there to take a violent stand. 9 It was never that, but violence was -- and 10 I -- and I don't think it's just violence, I think it's 11 racism because it doesn't matter where you go, there's 12 always somebody in a group who is racist; whether it's in 13 the OPP, whether you find them in the hospital, whether 14 you find them among lawyers. In any group there will 15 always be racism. 16 I think that was a big part of it. I 17 don't think Dudley ever did anything so wrong to anybody 18 that he deserved to be shot and that he needed his life 19 taken. It was somebody out there that had a hatred for 20 native people and I believe that's why he's dead today. 21 And I believe that there was intention for 22 more than just Dudley to be -- to be gone from this 23 world. I believe they wanted to do away with all of the 24 people that were there that night. I don't -- with the 25 amount of guns and the amount of people that -- the
1471 amount of police officers and the force that they took to 2 march down that road and beat somebody almost to their 3 death and to shoot at people who were not armed. 4 The government always likes to do what 5 they want to do and then they just sit back. They pass 6 the buck when the elections come. Oh, it wasn't us. Oh, 7 it was that group; it was that other group. 8 And if the government takes the time to 9 stand up and face what it is that they've caused. And 10 not just in our own little community here, but all across 11 Canada. If they would be accountable for some of the 12 things that have gone -- that have gone wrong when they 13 take our land. 14 And -- because if you look at it -- if you 15 look at the map of Canada and you look at how small our 16 community is, why can't they go and take -- go and plot 17 themselves somewheres else? Why don't they come -- why 18 didn't they set their Army Camp up on the town of 19 Thedford? Why didn't they do that? 20 And it's always minority groups that get 21 the beatings, that get killed. It's never that group 22 from that bigger society that thinks they're the 23 almighty, and they're not. We're all created equal and 24 because they don't understand our cultural ways or a 25 little -- a minority's -- just because they're a little
1481 bit different doesn't mean that it's wrong; that's all. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mrs. 3 George. Mr. Commissioner, this might be a good time to 4 take a break. I wonder if it might also be appropriate 5 simply to canvass other Counsel as to who will be cross- 6 examining, and perhaps an estimate as to what they 7 anticipate, in terms of time. 8 I can tell you, Mr. Commissioner, that 9 Mrs. George has advised that she must be at the hospital 10 tomorrow to report for duty at noon and so she tells me 11 that she cannot go beyond noon tomorrow. And if need be, 12 then we would simply schedule around that and she would 13 have her return -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 15 what the lay of the land is. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many 18 people are expecting to cross-examine this Witness? 19 Twelve (12)? Okay. Are you with me, Ms. Hensel? You 20 are? Okay. Yes, Mr. Orkin...? 21 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I won't be more than 22 five (5) minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 Mr. Rosenthal...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was just going to
1491 see if we got through -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Witness 3 isn't finished yet, Mr. Rosenthal, so don't thank her -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I just wish to 5 thank the witness very much for her testimony and do not 6 have any questions for her. Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Rosenthal. Any other Aboriginal parties? No? Okay. 9 The OPP? 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Five (5) to ten 11 (10) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the 13 OPPA? 14 MR. IAN McGILP: Thirty (30) to thirty- 15 five (35) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the 17 Premier, the former Premier? 18 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Five (5) to ten 19 (10) minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Coroner? 21 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (5) to ten (10) 22 minutes, Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 24 Mr. Beaubien? 25 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: About five (5)
1501 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So there's a 3 possibility that we'll finish this afternoon. Let's take 4 a short break and come back and try and finish. We'll go 5 to at least five, but if we're almost finished, then 6 we'll continue a little past five. Is that all right? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Certainly, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 11 for fifteen (15) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 3:39 p.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 3:55 p.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 17 resumed. Please be seated. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Orkin. 20 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, 21 Commissioner. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 24 Q: Ms. George, my name is Andrew Orkin 25 and I'm one (1) of the co-Counsel representing the estate
1511 of Dudley George and the Sam George family group. 2 I don't have many questions for you, just 3 two (2) or three (3) of them. But first of all I'd like 4 to acknowledge your -- the testimony you've given and the 5 things that you've told us about this -- this morning and 6 this afternoon. 7 First of all, Ms. George, you mentioned 8 that you had occasion, in the days of September 4th, 5th, 9 and 6th, of 1995, to attend a number of times in the 10 vicinity of the occupation and at the occupation itself; 11 that's correct? 12 A: Yes. Yes. 13 Q: And that on a number of occasions, 14 you were there with your children, including your younger 15 children? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Could you just repeat, for me, 18 please, the ages of your children and perhaps their 19 names, that you were at the occupation with? 20 A: Stephanie, she would have been six 21 (6) years old; Amanda, eight (8) years old; Melanie, 22 eleven (11) years old; Nick was sixteen (16) or fifteen 23 (15); and Charmin was, I believe she was twenty (20), -- 24 Q: All right. 25 A: -- at the time.
1521 Q: Would you ever have taken your 2 children, and particularly your young ones, into a place 3 where you thought that it was even the slightest bit 4 possible that there would be violence or shooting or 5 guns? 6 A: No, I would never take my children 7 where I thought they might be harmed. 8 Q: Thank you. You mentioned that you 9 and other family members, and in particular, Nick, was 10 told by his grandfather, that Stoney Point was, as you 11 put it, "Our land?" 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Am I correct in saying that by this, 14 when you said, Our land, you meant all of the reserve 15 lands at Stoney Point, including parklands that became 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Would you agree, and let me just 23 preface this a second; In the course of your testimony 24 this morning, you indicated that on a number of 25 occasions, on the days prior to the shooting, you
1531 interacted firsthand, or you saw others interacting and 2 heard them interacting with members of the Ontario 3 Provincial Police? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Would it be true to say or would you 6 agree with me, based on what you saw the police say and 7 do, in those interactions on September 4th, 5th, or 6th, 8 before the shooting, that the police seemed to either 9 know nothing about your people's treaty and aboriginal 10 rights to the Ipperwash Park lands, or not to care about 11 those rights? 12 A: Yes, I would say that was true. 13 Q: Thank you very much. I have no 14 further questions. Thanks again. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 I think you're next, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 17 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 18 Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mrs. George. I'm 24 going to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. In 25 your evidence this morning, you referred, when you were
1541 talking about coming into the Park on September the 4th, 2 you referred to an agreement that you had understood was 3 in place, in which, again, you understood the police had 4 promised not to be in the Park? 5 A: I'm not sure. I just know that there 6 was some kind of an -- an agreement. And I'm not really 7 sure of the exact wording of it, a verbal agreement about 8 how the Park Superintendent would hand over keys to gates 9 or whatever, but there wouldn't -- not be, I thought, any 10 police involvement with this. 11 Q: All right. And I tru -- 12 A: Or a show -- or I should say, a show 13 of police within the Park after that had taken place. 14 Q: Fair to say that you had no firsthand 15 knowledge of -- 16 A: No, I -- 17 Q: -- this agreement? 18 A: -- just heard little bits and pieces 19 about what other people were talking about. 20 Q: Thank you. I'd like to take you, if 21 I can -- could actually the document brief prepared by 22 Commission Counsel be placed before Mrs. George? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1551 Q: Just give us a moment, Mrs. George. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Could I ask you, it looks like My 6 Friend Ms. Hensel's already done it for you. If you turn 7 to Tab 3, I'll trust, Mrs. George, that you recognize 8 that that is a transcript of the interview I understand 9 the SIU had with you on October the 12th, 1995? 10 Does that look familiar? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I trust that when you gave the 13 interview, it's just a little bit over a month following 14 the events in question, that the events were much fresher 15 in your mind than they are today, some almost -- more 16 than ten (10) years late -- no, not quite ten (10) years, 17 excuse me, almost ten (10) years later? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I'd like to, if I can, direct you to 20 the bottom of page 2 of the transcript. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And in particular I'm very interested 23 in an observation that you made on the night of the 6th 24 and an observation that you later conveyed to the police 25 and in particular, I'm referring at the bottom of the
1561 page, three (3) or four (4) lines up from the bottom: 2 "Herself --" 3 -- and you're referring to your sister-in-law, Tina -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "Herself and her boyfriend, they left 6 again to go back down to the Park and I 7 followed right behind, but just outside 8 of the gate there was a fire going 9 there" 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, I trust that this fire was a 12 fire that hadn't been there prior to the evening of 13 September the 6th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And was this the first time that you 16 noticed it or do you recall seeing it? I'm going to 17 suggest that, indeed, it was burning a little bit earlier 18 in the evening. 19 A: It might have been, but it wasn't as 20 big as at that point. 21 Q: Fair enough. And so you'd agree with 22 me that there was a fire, on the evening of September the 23 6th, near the gate on Army Camp Road and that was a new 24 occurrence, on the evening of September the 6th? 25 A: Yes.
1571 Q: Thank you. The final area that I'd 2 like to talk to you about, Mrs. George, is your 3 observations of Officer Mark Wright. And you told us 4 earlier today that you saw Officer Wright -- and if it 5 assists you, you don't talk about this in your statement, 6 so I'm not going to be asking you any more questions from 7 the transcript. You told us earlier today that you saw a 8 man whom you later learned was Mark Wright. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Coming up to the fence line and he 11 was in the company of a female officer whom you later 12 learned was a woman by the name of Officer Eve. Do I 13 have that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you testified today that as best 16 as you could recall, you noticed them at the fence line 17 on Tuesday, September the 5th. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do I have that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I anticipate that we're going to 22 hear, with the benefit of notes to refresh the Witness' 23 memory, that on September the 6th, at around 3:00 p.m., 24 Mark Wright and Marg Eve approached the fence line by the 25 sandy parking lot.
1581 Is it possible that the -- what you 2 observed actually occurred on Wednesday the 6th and not 3 Tuesday the 5th? 4 A: It could be. 5 Q: Okay. And as you've indicated to us, 6 what Mr. Wright -- what you heard him say was that he 7 wanted to speak to someone who was a leader within the 8 group of Occupiers at the Park? 9 A: Yeah, somebody who was in charge. 10 Q: Somebody who was in charge? And I 11 trust also from what you have told us, those people who 12 were within earshot were choosing to ignore him? 13 A: Yeah, I believe so. Dave George had 14 rode -- had driven by in his vehicle and just kept going. 15 Q: What vehicle was David George 16 driving? 17 A: I don't remember. There were so 18 many vehicles that Dave has owned since then that I can't 19 remember what vehicle it was he was driving. 20 Q: All right. Would it be fair to say 21 that when Officer Wright and Officer Eve were up at the 22 fence line, there were a number of vehicles driving close 23 to them, at the fence line? 24 A: Yeah, I recall seeing a lot -- a 25 number of vehicles.
1591 Q: Driving up towards them? 2 A: By them, yes. 3 Q: By them. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay, thank you. And I anticipate 6 that we're going to hear that one (1) such vehicle was a 7 black Camaro or a Camaro-like car. Do you recall that 8 vehicle? 9 A: I don't recall that one. 10 Q: Not specifically one (1) way or the 11 other? 12 A: No. No. 13 Q: Is it possible that it's there and 14 it's just because of the passage of time you can't 15 recall? 16 A: Yeah, that's possible. 17 Q: Okay. So you've told us that Officer 18 Wright was asking to speak to someone in charge. And 19 you've told us that those within earshot of his request 20 were choosing to ignore him. 21 I trust that you'd agree with me that 22 having regard to conversations that you had with the 23 occupiers in the -- in the Park, the consensus amongst 24 them was that was no point in speaking with the police, 25 because you were of the view, and I -- when I mean "you",
1601 I mean collectively, you were of the view that they 2 weren't there -- they weren't there to be able to help 3 you in the same sense that the government would be there 4 to help you; in other words, come to the table and talk 5 about the issues? 6 A: Yeah, that's true, that's right. 7 Q: Okay. In other words, you were of 8 the view, and again I mean you, collectively, you were of 9 the view that the police could not assist you. Instead, 10 you wanted to speak with the government who could assist 11 you? 12 A: Yes. I don't think the police could 13 assist with settling a land claim. 14 Q: I understand. 15 A: Is that -- does that fall under their 16 protocol, because I don't think it does. 17 Q: And I understand. And I'm interested 18 in knowing what was in the minds of the occupiers -- 19 A: Well -- 20 Q: -- of the Park. 21 A: -- I think that was what was in their 22 minds, was they should have the people who were 23 responsible for this there to talk to them. 24 Q: And it was for that reason, as best 25 as you could tell, there was no interest amongst the
1611 occupiers in speaking with the police? 2 A: No, I don't believe there was any 3 interest. 4 Q: Thank you, Mrs. George. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. Mr. McGilp...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN McGILP: 11 Q: Good afternoon, Ms. George. My name 12 is Ian McGilp and I'm here -- I'm one (1) of the lawyers 13 who represent the OPP Association, which is the Officers' 14 Union, if you will. 15 Ms. George, you told us this morning about 16 an incident in which, prior to 1995, in which you were 17 visiting, I believe, on the former Camp Ipperwash, and 18 that on one (1) occasion you were visiting Dudley 19 George's trailer and that a Military vehicle drove by -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that Mr. George knew that it 22 would come back on that same road and that he went and 23 got some eggs and when the vehicle came back, he threw 24 eggs at it. Do you recall that? 25 A: Yes.
1621 Q: Now your sister-in-law, Tina George, 2 when she was here on January the 19th, told us about an 3 incident when she was visiting at Dudley George -- 4 George's trailer. 5 First of all, should I -- I should ask you 6 was your sister, Tina -- sister-in-law, Tina, there the 7 day that you saw Dudley throwing the eggs at the Military 8 vehicle? 9 A: No, she wasn't. 10 Q: She wasn't? So she -- Tina told us 11 about another incident when she and Dudley threw eggs at 12 a -- at a Military vehicle that had stopped at the 13 trailer and was taking down her licence plate number. 14 So that would be a separate incident 15 altogether, would it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. Now, we've heard some evidence 18 and I anticipate we're going to hear more -- evidence to 19 the effect that during 1993 -- during the initial phase 20 of the occupation of the Army Camp, that Maynard George 21 was the first elected chief of the group. 22 Do you know about that? 23 A: I don't know. I don't recall. 24 Q: You don't recall? 25 A: No, not really.
1631 Q: Do you recall that at some point, 2 Carl George, some point after, that Carl George was 3 elected chief? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You recall that? And do you recall 6 that -- I understand that in May of 1995, he was no 7 longer recognized as chief. Do you recall that? 8 A: Yeah, I do. 9 Q: Yes. And that at that -- do you know 10 why it happened that he was no longer recognized? 11 A: No, I don't know the reasons behind 12 that. 13 Q: Did you ever talk to your husband 14 about that? Did he explain to you what he had heard 15 about the reason that Carl George was no longer 16 recognized? 17 A: He might have, but I don't recall it 18 today. Like, I just -- I really didn't pay too much 19 attention to the -- I guess, so to speak, the political 20 part of this. 21 Q: You did -- 22 A: It's not -- not -- I wasn't really 23 interested in that -- that part of it. 24 Q: I can understand that you were not 25 interested in politics.
1641 A: I'm not today either, sir. 2 Q: Do you recall that a Mr. Glen George 3 -- or do you know if Mr. Glen George, subsequent to Carl 4 George no longer being recognized, do you know if Glen 5 George, at some point, became recognized as -- as the 6 chief? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: More politics? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, the lawyer who 15 was asking you questions just before me, asked you about 16 the incident when Mark Wright and -- and another female 17 officer named "Eve" -- 18 A: Yes? 19 Q: -- approached the fence that day? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And she asked you if you remembered a 22 black Camaro pulling up and you didn't specifically 23 remember that car. 24 A: No. 25 Q: Do you remember any car -- I mean you
1651 said that -- this morning that a number of cars drove by 2 the fence -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- while the officers were there. Is 5 that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you remember any car at all 8 stopping at the fence where the two (2) officers were? 9 A: I don't recall any of them stopping, 10 not while I was standing there, anyway. 11 Q: Not while you were standing there? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And were you standing near where the 14 officers were or were you back in the area by the store 15 where the picnic tables were? 16 A: Oh, no. I was -- I was alo -- along 17 those trees that were just opposite them. There was a 18 line of trees that run parallel to the fence where they 19 were. 20 Q: To the fence? 21 A: Yes, and I was standing there. 22 Q: So you were standing quite close to 23 the place where Officer's Wright and Eve came up to the 24 fence? 25 A: Yes.
1661 Q: And can you recollect how long they 2 were there; approximately? 3 A: They were there for quite some time, 4 actually. 5 Q: Quite some time? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did you speak to them at all 8 during that time? 9 A: No, just really -- no, when they said 10 they wanted to talk to somebody -- leaders or something, 11 I just motioned to them that my children would talk to 12 them if they wanted somebody to talk to. 13 Q: You don't like politics, do you? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did you leave that area before 16 the officers left or did they leave before you left? 17 A: I can't really say. I didn't spend 18 too much time there by the trees. The kids were there 19 and I -- I kind of think maybe they were still there, 20 maybe just went -- kind of backed up onto the roadway 21 where there were more officers out on the -- that curve-- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- of a roadway. Yeah. 24 Q: Yes. We anticipate that Officer 25 Wright is going to give evidence that when that -- when -
1671 - when the black Camaro stopped at the fence where he was 2 standing, that he asked the individuals in the car 3 whether they represented their people and that he would 4 like to talk to someone who represented the people and 5 that the answer he received was, We'll do our talking 6 with guns. Now, did you hear that? 7 A: No, like I said, I don't recall the-- 8 Q: You -- 9 A: -- the black car that you're talking 10 about, so I don't -- 11 Q: Do you recall anyone saying any words 12 -- anything like that to the police officers? 13 A: No, not while I was standing there. 14 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Do you know 15 where Dudley George was -- happened to be? Did you 16 happen to notice where Dudley George was at the time the 17 officers were at the fence? 18 A: No, I don't actually think he was in 19 that area. 20 Q: He wasn't in the area? 21 A: Not -- not at that time -- 22 Q: Not -- 23 A: -- when I was there. 24 Q: Not at that time? 25 A: Yeah.
1681 Q: And did you happen to notice him in - 2 - Dudley George in any of the cars that drove by the 3 fence? 4 A: Not driving one, he might have been a 5 passenger, but I really didn't pay too much attention to 6 all the occupants of the vehicles, because -- 7 Q: But you don't recall whether you 8 noticed Mr. George -- Mr. Dudley George -- in one (1) of 9 the vehicles or not? 10 A: No, he could have been, but I 11 didn't -- 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: -- I wasn't really paying too much 14 attention. 15 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. We're getting 16 along so well we may beat my estimate of thirty (30) 17 minutes here. 18 Ms. George, I'm going to take you, if I 19 may, to the evening of September the 5th, which would be 20 the Tuesday. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: That evening, I -- you -- were down 23 in the Park that evening? 24 A: I probably was at some point. I just 25 -- like I said, with little girls in tow and going back
1691 and forth from my house to down there -- 2 Q: You were -- you said you were going 3 back and forth -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- at different points in the day. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And essentially looking after your 8 children. 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: Do you recall on September the 5th, 11 the Tuesday, whether you visited with Tina in the -- Tina 12 George in the maintenance building that evening? 13 A: On which day? 14 Q: The 5th, which would be the Tuesday? 15 The day before the violence? 16 A: I might have stopped there, but I 17 don't really recall being there for a visit that day. I 18 might have been. 19 Q: Do you recall what time of -- of 20 evening that -- on the evening of the 5th, do you recall 21 what time you went back to the built-up area? 22 A: I -- I don't think it was too late, 23 because like I said, I have -- had my daughters and 24 probably went up to put them to bed at a decent time. 25 Q: And do you think it would have been
1701 before midnight? 2 A: Oh, I would think so, yes. 3 Q: Yes. Did you ever see a back hoe or 4 front-end loader in the built-up area? 5 A: A back hoe? 6 Q: Do you know what a back hoe is? 7 A: Yeah, I know what a back hoe is? 8 Q: I anticipate we're going to hear 9 evidence that -- that the Army, when they left the built- 10 up area, left a back hoe there. 11 And we've already heard evidence from Mr. 12 Warren George, that he had what he describes as a tractor 13 back hoe, inside the Army Camp. 14 A: I don't know. I'm not too keen on 15 equipment and I don't really keep an eye out for it. I 16 just -- I don't recall seeing them there. They -- they 17 might have been but I just didn't really pay attention. 18 Q: When you returned to the Park, I 19 believe you said you returned to the Park on the morning 20 of the 6th at -- early in the morning. Is that sometime 21 -- I think in your SIU statement, you said you were back 22 to the Park around nine -- between nine (9) and ten (10) 23 on the Wednesday morning. 24 Does that sound correct to you? 25 A: Yes.
1711 Q: And I'm going to ask you again about 2 equipment, even though I know you don't like it, but do 3 you recall seeing a -- the back hoe or a dump truck down 4 in the Park when you arrived on the morning of the 6th? 5 A: No, I don't recall. 6 Q: You can't recall? 7 A: No. 8 Q: If I could ask you briefly to turn to 9 the SIU Statement that -- the SIU Statement that's in 10 your binder, I think it's at Tab 3, is it? 11 I'm sorry, if I could ask you to look at 12 the bottom of page 5 of that statement, and -- and you've 13 said there, towards the bottom, that you returned to the 14 Park that morning at 9:00, 9:30, 10:00, somewhere in 15 there, you didn't know for sure, and then the last line 16 you say: 17 "The guys were up at the front. We 18 stayed back around the other side near 19 the Park store, you know what I mean? 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: We were back around that area. 22 There was picnic tables and that there, 23 but I don't know, the guys were up at 24 the front. I think they were trying to 25 reinforce the -- the area where they
1721 had the tents and --" 2 Now stopping there, Ms. George, can you 3 recollect today what you meant by, when you said, when 4 you told the SIU investigators, that the guys were 5 reinforcing the area? 6 A: Oh I think like with picnic tables 7 and stuff that were there. 8 Q: Picnic tables. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what area were they reinforcing? 11 A: Probably right along the fence line. 12 Q: Right along the fence line? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And this is the morning of September 15 the 6th? 16 A: I think so. Because that was the 17 morning that they came and plow -- or the cruisers came 18 and drove into the picnic tables that the guys had set up 19 in a circle around the fire. 20 Q: Actually, we've heard substantial 21 evidence, from a number of witnesses, that it was on the 22 night of September the 5th, that the cruiser pushed the 23 picnic tables back towards the fence. 24 And that on the morning of September the 25 6th, the police came and removed the picnic tables that
1731 had been left in the parking lot. 2 And that on the morning of the 6th, there 3 was only one (1) or two (2) individuals out in the 4 parking lot and that when they saw the police coming they 5 retreated back into the Park, so that the police were 6 able to remove the tables, without incident. 7 A: Oh. But that's what we were told on 8 the morning of the 6th. 9 Q: I -- I understand that that's what 10 Mr. Robert Isaac told you? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: Yes. And so it's possible entirely 13 that either he got the two (2) events, the night of the 14 5th, the morning of the 6th, those two (2) events mixed 15 up in his statement -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- to you, or it's possible, I take 18 it, that you could have got what he told you mixed up. 19 Is either of those -- 20 A: No. I know what he said. 21 Q: You know what he said? 22 A: Because my husband got up and he went 23 right down there. So, I know that's what he said. He 24 said that the picnic tables had gotten -- 25 Q: Rammed on the morning --
1741 A: Rammed -- 2 Q: -- of the 6th. 3 A: -- yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. When you went back to the -- 7 to the Park that morning and you saw the guys reinforcing 8 the area -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- what you are telling us is that 11 they were moving picnic tables up to the fence line, on 12 the inside of the fence or the outside of the fence? 13 A: I think on the inside of the fence, I 14 believe -- 15 Q: On the inside -- 16 A: -- from the inside -- 17 Q: -- of the fence? 18 A: -- yeah. Other picnic tables from 19 the inside. 20 Q: Did you see any sandbags piled up 21 around that area that morning? 22 A: Not that I recall, no. 23 Q: Not that you recall. And you don't 24 recall -- did you recall seeing the dump truck there that 25 morning?
1751 A: No. 2 Q: Or the back hoe? 3 A: No. I just -- I don't know. I guess 4 I -- maybe I wasn't looking for them or didn't pay 5 attention, but I don't -- they don't stand out in my mind 6 as having seen them. 7 Q: I think I can undertake that I will 8 not ask you anymore questions about back hoes or 9 politics -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- fair? 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: However, I do have to ask you about 14 ambulances. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Again, I'm going to ask you to turn 17 to your statement to the SIU at Page 3. Now, I think you 18 told the Commissioner this morning, that when you went 19 out and spoke to the officers on the highway about 20 getting an ambulance for Nick -- I'm sorry, I'll give you 21 a moment. 22 If you could -- it's at Tab 3 in your book 23 and it's at Page 3 of that statement. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: But before I take you to it, I
1761 believe you told us this morning that when you went out 2 and spoke to the police officers about getting an 3 ambulance for Nick, that the officers said to you, Why 4 should we get you an ambulance? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Is that the way you -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- remember your evidence this 9 morning? Now if I could ask you to look about two-thirds 10 (2/3) of the way down on page 3 of your statement, 11 there's a sentence that begins in the middle of the page 12 and it begins with the words, 13 "Well there were four (4) cruisers 14 sitting there". 15 Can you find that? 16 A: Yeah, I think so. 17 Q: "Well there were -- well, there were 18 four (4) cruisers sitting there. One 19 (1) around the ramp, and there was 20 three (3) on the opposite side of the 21 road. Well, I didn't see anybody in 22 those cruisers. I thought, where is 23 everybody? 24 So I turned around on the ramp and came 25 up the other side of the highway,
1771 stopped my car, got out and as soon as 2 I got out of the car, they jumped out 3 the ditch and they had their guns 4 pointed at me and told me to put my 5 hands in the air. 6 I said, I'm not armed and I want an 7 ambulance, I need an ambulance. They 8 said, why do you need an ambulance? I 9 said because my son's been shot and he 10 said, Well, we don't know if we can get 11 you one. 12 And I said, we'll you'd better get me 13 one." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: "This is just a kid and they came --" 16 And then skipping a line, 17 "-- they came out and searched me and 18 wanted to lay me on the ground." 19 And so on... 20 Now, I take it there's a difference 21 between, Why should we get you an ambulance, and, We 22 don't know if we can get you one? 23 Do you remember whether -- does your SIU 24 statement refresh your memory today about what it was the 25 police officers said to you when you asked them for an
1781 ambulance? 2 A: No. I know what they said. They 3 said, why should we get you an am -- why should we get 4 you an ambulance? "You" is stressed. 5 Q: Did the -- did -- did you get the 6 impression that they thought you wanted the ambulance for 7 yourself? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No. 10 A: When you want an ambulance, people 11 usually get you one. If you ask for an ambulance, if you 12 go and ask somebody to call 911 or get you an ambulance, 13 people don't usually ask you why or why should we get you 14 one, or I don't know if I can get you one. 15 I'm sure they know -- I knew they could 16 get me one, because they had a radio in that car and they 17 had ambulances parked all over the place, including down 18 at that Park. 19 And they were using one for a -- for a 20 command post. So they can't tell me that they couldn't 21 get me an ambulance. I knew damn well they could get me 22 one and I didn't want to be questioned as to why should I 23 need one or why shouldn't they get me one or any other 24 words. 25 Q: Thank you, Ms. George.
1791 A: You're welcome. 2 Q: I believe you told us this morning 3 that -- I'll just check my notes, that you told Mr. Worme 4 that from the time you asked for an ambulance -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- until the time that they agreed to 7 bring you one -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- was approximately five (5) 10 minutes? 11 A: Somewheres in that area, I suppose. 12 Q: And then you -- and then you said 13 that you waited another ten (10) minutes until you saw 14 the lights of the ambulance coming and you -- 15 A: Probably somewheres in that area, 16 yes. 17 Q: Yes. Could I ask you to look at your 18 SIU statement again on page 12 and about eight (8) lines 19 down: 20 "Q: Camp Ipperwash, how long -- how 21 long a span of time do you think it was 22 from the time you left there to get an 23 ambulance and finally got one to 24 arrive? 25 A: No longer than five (5) minutes."
1801 A: Well, maybe I said that then, but I 2 don't think it was no longer than five (5) 3 minutes. It took some time for me to get 4 out there, have a discussion with them, 5 for me to get back over there and to stand 6 there and wait and I know it was longer 7 than that." 8 Q: Do you think your memory today is 9 actually better than it was -- 10 A: Well, my memory might be a little bit 11 better on some things and maybe I was a little more 12 confused. I was very upset the day I gave this statement 13 to the SIU, I actually probably cried through most of it. 14 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. I anticipate, 15 Ms. George, that we're going to hear evidence from the 16 police officers who were on duty at the checkpoint -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- outside the Army Camp that night 19 that they were operating their checkpoint; that they 20 heard gunfire or reports of gunfire from the area of the 21 Park; that shortly after that, a number of vehicles and 22 people came to the fence at the corner of Army Camp Road 23 and Highway 21; that the headlights from the vehicles 24 were illuminating the police; that the police officers 25 feared they may be fired upon; that they therefore moved
1811 their checkpoint some distance -- some small distance and 2 took cover in the opposite ditch. 3 I also anticipate that we're going to hear 4 evidence from the ambulance attendants who attended at 5 the scene that night that when they arrived at the scene 6 the police told them to take cover in the ditch. 7 Now, in those circumstances can you 8 understand why the police told the ambulance covers -- 9 the ambulance attendants to take cover in the ditch? 10 A: No. 11 Q: The fact that there had just been 12 gunfire coming from the area down at the Park and that 13 the police didn't know who was shooting -- 14 A: Well, -- 15 Q: -- or who was shooting back. 16 A: Well, I -- 17 Q: Do you not think that under those 18 circumstances it would have been understandable to ask 19 the ambulance attendants to take cover? 20 A: No, because nobody had guns, so I 21 didn't understand that-- 22 Q: The police didn't know that, did 23 they? 24 A: -- from my point of view. Well, they 25 had guns, they were firing.
1821 Q: They weren't firing at the 2 checkpoint, were they? 3 A: Oh, they were firing down in the 4 Park. 5 Q: That's correct. 6 A: That was pretty obvious. Some -- one 7 (1) of us got killed. 8 Q: But the police at the checkpoint 9 didn't, at that time, know who was firing or who got 10 hurt, did they? 11 A: Oh, I'm sure they knew. They've got 12 radios. I'm sure they knew they had dragged somebody out 13 and almost beat them to death and had them in one (1) of 14 their paddy wagons. I'm sure they were all aware, at 15 that point, because it was some time after. I'm sure 16 they were well aware. 17 Q: Well, we'll hear from the police 18 officers about that, Ms. George. 19 A: I'm sure we will. 20 Q: Excuse me one (1) moment, I seem to 21 have lost the paper I need. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I apologize, Ms. George, I -- but I
1831 have -- I have now located the paper I need and it's the 2 transcript of the evidence of your son, Nick Cotrelle -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- who gave evidence on January the 5 18th here, and I'm reading from page 137 and 138 and he's 6 describing the -- what happened when he is taken out by 7 you and Tina George -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- out to the place where the police 10 officers and the ambulance are. And he says the 11 following: 12 "We stopped and just out of no where 13 there's all these cops come flying out 14 of the ditch. They had rifles, telling 15 us to put our hands up and kept 16 circling the car, and my mother was 17 screaming at them, don't shoot. She 18 was screaming at them about something. 19 And they cleared the car, like they 20 made sure there were no guns or 21 anything in there and then they let the 22 ambulance attendants come over." 23 And now I'm skipping a few lines, and he 24 goes on: 25 "No, I never put my hands up.
1841 Q: And then what did -- and then, when 2 you say the police officers cleared the 3 car, what do you mean by that? 4 A: They just come up. There was a 5 couple -- there was a couple on each 6 side of the car and they flashed 7 flashlights in there, looked on the 8 floor, beside us, as best they could I 9 guess. And a couple of them then went 10 back and then the ambulance attendants 11 came over." 12 Now, the question I have, Ms. George, is 13 again, in the circumstances that existed, at the time 14 when you and Tina and Nick go out to the road to get an 15 ambulance, can you understand why the police wanted to 16 clear the car, in the way that your son described? They 17 wanted to find out if there were any guns in that car? 18 A: I didn't have any guns. 19 Q: No, but do you under -- 20 A: So that -- so I don't know why. I 21 told them I wasn't armed. I told them why I was bringing 22 my son out there. I told them that the people down in 23 the Park were not armed. 24 Q: And do you think -- can you 25 understand why the police wanted to look for themselves?
1851 A: Well, they can look -- I -- I can 2 understand why they want to look for themselves, but -- 3 Q: Thank you, Ms. George 4 A: -- they were still shooting at 5 unarmed people. 6 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now I think 7 that you told us that after the ambulance left for the 8 hospital, that you went back into the Army Camp area, and 9 that you and your husband sat in the gatehouse? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you remember approximately what - 12 - how long that was? 13 A: Hours. 14 Q: Why didn't you go to the hospital 15 then? 16 A: Because if I would have pulled out on 17 the road, would they have let me? Would they have let me 18 travel? I don't think so. Or maybe they would of hauled 19 me off to jail and beat me too. I didn't know that. 20 Q: You said, Ms. George, that at the 21 hospital, you asked someone if Nick would be okay, 22 whether he had a spine injury -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and that you were told that they 25 had dressed the injury; is that correct?
1861 A: Yes. 2 Q: Who did you ask? 3 A: The woman at the desk. 4 Q: It was -- it wasn't -- 5 A: Then I -- I think maybe a doctor came 6 to see me. She -- there was a nurse at the desk -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- and I think a doctor came and -- 9 Q: While you were talking to the nurse-- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- at the desk? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you. You said that you didn't 14 realize -- well, let me ask you this first: When did you 15 learn that Nick -- I understand from your SIU Statement, 16 that your husband told you that Nick had driven the bus 17 that night, -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- at the confrontation. And when 20 did he tell you that? Was that before you went to the 21 hospital? 22 A: No. 23 Q: He didn't tell you -- 24 A: I don't think so. I don't -- I don't 25 remember when he told me, maybe he did, I don't know. I
1871 just -- he might have. I think he did after Nick went to 2 the hospital. 3 Q: You didn't get to the hospital 4 until -- 5 A: I just know that he said he was on 6 the bus when he got shot. I'm -- 7 Q: That he got shot -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and you think that was before you 10 went to the hospital? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did you ask Nick at the hospital if 13 he was under arrest? 14 A: Yeah, I asked him what they told him. 15 And he said they were -- all's he said, all they did was, 16 they were doing some kind of tests on his hands, putting 17 stuff on his hands to see if he fired a gun. 18 Q: I anticipate we're going to hear 19 evidence from the police officers involved, that they 20 told him in the ambulance he was under arrest and that 21 they read him the Young Offender's caution and read him 22 his rights, and so on. 23 A: Well, he didn't tell me that and 24 nobody else told me that either when I got to that 25 hospital.
1881 Q: And you specifically asked Nick at 2 the hospital whether he was under arrest? 3 A: No, I didn't ask him if he was under 4 arrest. 5 Q: Oh. 6 A: I wasn't worried about him being 7 arrest, because I knew he didn't do anything. Why would 8 I ask him that? I wanted to know if my son was all 9 right, not if he was under arrest; that was not my 10 purpose for going there. 11 Q: But you saw police officers outside 12 the room -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and you saw -- 15 A: I seen them all through the hospital. 16 Q: And you saw -- 17 A: They ordered me back into the 18 elevator when I went to the wrong floor, down in the 19 basement, which I assume was the morgue. 20 Q: You told us this morning, Ms. George, 21 that -- that you felt that the police had used the 22 hospital room as an interrogation room. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if I -- my notes are correct, you 25 said that Nick told you after he was released, that while
1891 he was in the hospital the police would shake him and 2 wake him up -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and told him that if you'll give 5 us a statement, then we'll let you go back to sleep? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Is that what you told us? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, I can tell you that when your 10 son, Nick, testified here on January the 18th, and I'm 11 referring to Page 147, he said -- he told -- he told the 12 Commission that he was trying to stay awake when he was 13 in the hospital. 14 And when asked, What did the police say to 15 you when you were in the hospital room, he answered, 16 Nothing, they never -- that he never spoke to them. 17 Now you'll agree that that's a different 18 account. 19 A: Well, I know what my son told me. It 20 sticks out vividly in my mind, that day when I picked him 21 up and drove all the way back -- when we drove back to 22 Stoney Point with Ron George. I know exactly what my son 23 told me, what was going on and what was taking place in 24 that hospital room. 25 Maybe it doesn't sit clearly in his mind,
1901 but it sits clearly in mine. 2 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. I think you 3 told us this morning that when you were -- when you at -- 4 when you went back to Kettle Point and there was a fire 5 there and a number of people there; that Ed Isaac and 6 Doug Plain -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- were there, that's right. And I 9 think you sa -- how did you know them? 10 A: They're acquaintances. Doug is 11 actually my cousin. 12 Q: He's your cousin? 13 A: Yeah. And Ed I know through my 14 husband; that's one (1) of my husband's buddies. 15 Q: When did you meet Ed Isaac? Do you 16 recall? 17 A: I don't know. Maybe a -- a few years 18 before that. 19 Q: A few years before that. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you know his brother Sam? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And there was a third Isaac brother, 24 wasn't there? 25 A: Robert.
1911 Q: Robert, that's right. And did you 2 know all three of them? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The -- we've heard evidence from 5 others, Marlin Simon in particular, that Robert, Sam and 6 Ed all moved or all visited the built-up area in the 7 period between July the 30th and September the 3rd, of 8 1995. 9 Do you recollect that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. I was wondering if you remember 12 whether Bruce or Leyton Elijah was a visitor to the Army 13 Camp, during that period; that is, the month of August, 14 early September? 15 A: No, I don't recall seeing them until 16 after the -- September 6th. 17 Q: Until after September 6th? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What about Bob Antoine? 20 A: Not -- 21 Q: Do you remember seeing him? 22 A: -- I -- I haven't -- I don't -- 23 didn't remember seeing him until after that, either. I 24 didn't really meet him until maybe months down the road, 25 after the incident.
1921 Q: After the incident? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you. You told us this morning 4 that, prior to September the 4th, I think it was earlier 5 that -- I think it was early, if my notes are correct, it 6 was early on the day of September the 4th, you heard some 7 discussion or talk about a plan to take over the Park. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were you present when this 11 conversation took place? 12 A: No, I just heard little bits and 13 pieces of it, just like in passing with my husband. He 14 was talking to some of the other fellows. 15 Q: And was this a meeting that was down 16 at the beach, I think you sai -- or a gathering down at 17 the beach? 18 A: I -- like I said, I didn't take part 19 in the actual discussion of everything. I just heard 20 little bits and pieces of it because I just -- was like 21 coming and going with my children on my beach and -- 22 Q: I see. 23 A: -- taking them down for a swim. 24 Q: And those little bits and pieces, 25 were they things you overheard yourself or were they
1931 things that your husband or others reported to you? 2 A: Just like in passing, with other 3 people. Like, they'd stop -- we'd stop and talk and 4 they'd exchange a few words here and there and -- 5 Q: Thank you. And I wonder if you can 6 tell us whether Ed or Sam Isaac was present at that 7 discussion on the beach? 8 A: Not that I was aware of. 9 Q: Not that you were aware of? 10 A: No. 11 Q: What about the other individuals I 12 asked you -- Bruce Elijah or Leyton Elijah? Do you 13 remember if they were there? 14 A: Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q: What about Chuck George? Was he 16 there? 17 A: I didn't really know who Chuck George 18 was right away, so I couldn't tell you if he was there or 19 not. 20 Q: You didn't -- 21 A: No, I -- 22 Q: -- you didn't know Chuck George 23 until -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- after --
1941 A: Until after -- 2 Q: -- September the 6th -- 3 A: -- yes -- 4 Q: -- sometime? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And do you know Wayne Pine, who's 7 also known sometimes as Wayne Wilson? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You don't know him? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Ms. George, I know you'll be glad to 12 get rid of me. Those are all my questions. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: Thank you very much. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. McGilp. Ms. McAleer...? 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 19 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Good 20 afternoon, Ms. George. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 23 one (1) of the lawyers who's acting for the former 24 Premier Mike Harris. You've been asked a number of 25 questions regarding the efforts that you witnessed on
1951 behalf of the OPP to try and communicate with the leaders 2 among the Occupiers. 3 And you indicated in response to questions 4 by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson that one (1) of the reasons 5 the Occupiers didn't want to speak with the OPP was 6 because the OPP couldn't address the issue; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when you say that they -- they 10 couldn't address the issue, are you referring to the 11 issue regarding the lands that had been appropriated by 12 the Federal Government, in 1942? 13 A: No. 14 Q: What are you referring to? 15 A: The Park lands. 16 Q: Okay. Did you tell the OPP that you 17 wanted to speak to somebody from the Provincial 18 Government? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you see any of the Occupiers 21 communicate to anybody from the OPP that they wished to 22 speak to somebody from the Provincial Government? 23 A: Not that I'm aware of. 24 Q: Okay. Did you hear anybody talking 25 about trying to communicate to the Provincial Government
1961 that they wanted to negotiate about the Provincial Park 2 lands? 3 A: I don't think there was anything to 4 negotiate. I think the thing -- the fact was, they took 5 back their burial grounds, there was no negotiating. The 6 lands were taken back and there's no negotiating these 7 lands. 8 Q: Okay. So what -- 9 A: There's nothing to negotiate. 10 Q: Okay. Now, you also indicated that 11 in response to questions that were put to you by Mr. 12 Worme, that you understood that somebody from the Federal 13 Government had actually come to the Army Camp at some 14 point and had not spoken with anyone from your family, 15 but had spoken with someone from Maynard T. George's 16 family; is that correct? 17 A: Yes, that's -- that was my 18 understanding and I think most people probably didn't 19 even know about this person until after the fact, so -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- they weren't even aware he was 22 there -- that this person was there. 23 Q: When was that person apparently at 24 the Army Camp? 25 A: Well, I think it was the same day,
1971 September the 6th; that's my understanding, I don't know. 2 I couldn't tell you for sure, because I didn't see him. 3 I didn't -- I don't even know who he is, but that's my 4 understanding. 5 Q: When did you first hear about it? 6 A: Not until months later. I think 7 there as an article in one (1) of the papers that said 8 something to the fact that this guy was in there, I don't 9 know. I -- I just remember -- not until later I had 10 heard about it -- about this person being in there. 11 Q: Did you ever speak to anybody from 12 Maynard T.'s family about that individual and what had 13 been the nature of their communication? 14 A: No. Not myself, no. 15 Q: Do you know anything more about that 16 visit? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: You mentioned that some people from 19 the Oneida First Nation had come to the Provincial Park 20 and helped locate the burial sites within the Provincial 21 Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Was that done before or after the 24 events of September 6th? 25 A: After.
1981 Q: Do you remember when? 2 A: Not exactly, no. 3 Q: Was it within a year? 4 A: I would think so, yes. 5 Q: And were you present when those 6 people from Oneida were able to identify the burial 7 sites? 8 A: No, I wasn't right in -- down there 9 at the time, I was preparing food to feed them, so I 10 wasn't, like, right -- right there when they were 11 identifying the burial grounds. 12 Q: Okay. And who told you about it? 13 A: My husband. 14 Q: And had he been present at the time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now you also indicated that your 17 oldest daughter liked to stay up at the Army Camp and 18 watch the news coverage. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I take it you meant the news coverage 21 regarding the occupation of the Provincial Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And would you have occasion to 24 watch the news with your daughter? 25 A: She taped them.
1991 Q: And then would you watch them 2 afterwards? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And would you watch it with 5 your husband? 6 A: Sometimes, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall seeing any 8 coverage about the possibility of the Provincial 9 Government requesting an injunction to end the occupation 10 at the Provincial Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: What do you remember hearing about 13 that? 14 A: I don't know. It's pretty vague now, 15 I don't remember exactly what I heard about it. 16 Q: Okay. Was it your understanding that 17 the Provincial Government wanted to take some kind of 18 court action to stop the occupation of the Provincial 19 Park? 20 A: I -- I kind of recall hearing 21 something to that effect, yes. 22 Q: Okay. And do you recall if anyone 23 among the occupiers was concerned about that possibility? 24 A: No, I don't think -- I didn't hear 25 any -- anything to that fact.
2001 Q: Did you hear anybody discussing the 2 possibility of responding to that injunction or -- or 3 going to the courts in order to respond to the Provincial 4 Government? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Thank you, Mrs. George, those are all 7 my questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. I think Mr. O'Marra, you're up. I'm not sure 10 of the order between Mr. O'Marra and Mr. Sulman. I think 11 Mr. O'Marra's first. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Mrs. George. I'm Al 15 O'Marra on behalf of the Chief Coroner. And I only have 16 a few questions for you and they deal with actually the 17 effect or consequence of the violence that you and your 18 family experienced that night. 19 It's clear from listening to your 20 evidence, even this many years later, that it still 21 causes you emotional distress. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it -- it's clear, as well, that 24 it had significant impact upon your immediate family? 25 A: Yes.
2011 Q: You spoke of your -- your husband and 2 -- and your son and your daughter. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: One (1) of the things that you 5 mentioned as well was that there was nothing for the 6 people at Stoney Point and I just wanted you to -- to 7 speak about that. When you -- when you said that, what 8 were you referring to? 9 A: It's because the government gave 10 Kettle Point monies for -- to do with healing. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And there was -- nothing was ever 13 brought to -- to, actually, the people of my community. 14 There was -- there was nothing allocated for them. It 15 was kind of like -- although everything was centred 16 there, everybody there was directly impacted by it -- 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: -- there was never any -- any monies 19 or any kind of -- I'll say any kind of professional help 20 in regards to counselling, to bring our own people in to 21 help us with that. None of that was ever directed right 22 to our community. Everything took place outside in other 23 areas. People were sent here or sent there, but nothing 24 was ever brought to the community directly. 25 Q: Okay. That's what I wanted to -- to
2021 see if I could understand. Is it that people at Stoney 2 Point were offered services, but in order to access them 3 they had to go outside of Stoney Point. 4 A: Yes, it -- it meant travelling or 5 going to other places, which, to us, wasn't an 6 appropriate measure because many of -- many of the people 7 there were without transportation, fear of leaving the 8 community -- 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: -- and it would just make sense that 11 if you were going to bring healing measures to a group of 12 people that you would bring it to their community 13 directly. 14 Q: So I take it that if you were to 15 offer some assistance to the Commission by way of a 16 recommendation that if there was a circumstance that 17 required outside counselling for the benefit of the 18 effects of -- of violence -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- or emotional distress, that it 21 take place within the community. 22 A: Yes, I think it would -- 23 Q: Services are brought into the 24 community -- 25 A: Yes.
2031 Q: -- to provide that assistance. 2 A: I think it would -- I think that it 3 would benefit the community as a whole if it were 4 introduced and brought that way, instead of asking people 5 to leave the community and go outside of the community to 6 seek these services. 7 Q: And is it, I guess, from your 8 perspective, still something that would be beneficial 9 today? 10 A: I believe it would be. There's a lot 11 of -- I -- I still feel there's a lot of turmoil in our 12 community and it's all based on -- on what happened. 13 People are still -- have deep emotional feelings, deep 14 within themselves, and in order to be able to let that go 15 and let the healing process begin, that -- we have to 16 start somewhere. 17 Q: Thank you very much, Mrs. George. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. Mr. Sulman...? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mrs. George -- 25 A: Hello.
2041 Q: -- my name is Douglas Sulman and I 2 represent Marcel Beaubien, who was the MPP for the area, 3 back in September 1995. 4 And I only have a few questions for you. 5 They seem to get shorter and shorter as the day goes on. 6 You were telling Mr. Worme this morning 7 that people from Oneida had identified burial grounds 8 under the gravel road that runs from the maintenance shed 9 to the paved road on the westerly side of Ipperwash Park; 10 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that road was then closed so that 13 people would not travel on that road and they wouldn't 14 disturb these graves; correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the people occupying the Park 17 travel on the other roads in the Park in the early days 18 of the occupation of the Park and have continued to do 19 that during the past nine (9) years; correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now on January 18th, your son 22 Nicholas testified here that since the September 1995 23 occupation, there have been at least two (2) rock music 24 concerts that were, I guess, were called the Aazhoodena 25 Renegade Jamborees in the Park, at least in 1997 and '98.
2051 A: Yeah. I wouldn't call them rock 2 concerts -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: They were a fund raiser jamboree with 5 local native talent, so they're far from being a rock 6 concert. 7 Q: Well, I don't think they were the 8 Rolling Stones, but -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. But people came into the Park 11 and they attended those concerts and -- correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And at least in 1998, the concert 14 lasted three (3) days in June; that's what he told us in 15 his evidence. 16 A: I think maybe -- I don't think one 17 (1) ever lasted three (3) days. Maybe it felt like it 18 did. 19 Q: Okay. In his evidence, Mrs. George, 20 he told us that back on January 18th, he told Ms. -- Ms. 21 McAleer that it was held on June 19th, 20th, and 21st. 22 You may not recall that. 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether 25 people came and stayed overnight for those jamborees?
2061 A: Yes, some of them, yes. 2 Q: Okay. And the grave areas on the 3 road you told us about, were presumably protected from 4 disturbance by these jamboree goers -- 5 A: Oh, we were to the east -- we 6 actually were down at the eastern end, toward -- right 7 beside the -- the dirt road that used to run between the 8 Park and the beach area. 9 Q: Okay. Is there electricity there? 10 Is that why you were there? 11 A: Yeah, there's electricity there. 12 There's electricity outlets there, yes. 13 Q: But -- but in any event, the grave 14 area on the road would have been protected from the 15 jamboree goers? 16 A: Oh, yeah, there's barriers there, so 17 that nobody -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- can go down, yes. 20 Q: There's barriers and it's now 21 overgrown, isn't it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Very good. And logically, the 24 Province if they'd been informed prior to September 1995, 25 could have erected the same kind of barriers, I take it?
2071 A: I suppose they could have, if they -- 2 but I -- I really think they knew that was a burial 3 ground and -- 4 Q: Well, did anyone know that exact 5 location until the Oneida people came and identified the 6 burials? 7 A: In that -- where the -- under the 8 roadway? 9 Q: Right. 10 A: No, no. 11 Q: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. Just a second. Is Mr. Ross -- I think that's 14 it. Mr. Ross...? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 19 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Mrs. 20 George, your evidence was so very clear that I don't 21 propose to ask anything about what happened up until the 22 5th. And even on the 6th, I just want to confirm one (1) 23 thing with respect to your son. 24 When you went to pick him up eventually, 25 from the Strathroy Detachment --
2081 A: Yes. 2 Q: How was he dressed? 3 A: He had a hospital gown on and 4 hospital pants, and no shoes. 5 Q: And that's the way you had to take 6 him from there to your home? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the clothing that the police had 9 taken from him at the hospital, was that ever returned, 10 or can you recall? 11 A: They might have been returned later, 12 but I just -- I don't recall right... 13 Q: You don't recall. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Now, is it fair to say that this was 16 a terribly distressing time of your life? 17 A: Yes, I think it was -- at this point 18 in my life I think it was the most distressing time of my 19 life. 20 Q: And as such, even when you were 21 giving a statement to the SIU, I understand that was back 22 also in 1995, just a couple days after the incidents? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the statement is under Tab 3 of 25 your documents. Now, at the time that that statement was
2091 given, were you in a formal setting like this, where you 2 had to swear an oath of any kind, or was it more 3 informal, without the swearing of an oath. 4 A: It was informal. 5 Q: And, so you were there and you were 6 being questioned by Mr. Allen (phonetic), as far -- about 7 the incidents. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And after you had finished your 10 interview with Mr. Allen, did he at any time later, give 11 you a copy of what he had transcribed, and asked you to 12 review it and make any changes which weren't correct? 13 A: No. 14 Q: So your evidence here today, I take 15 it, is thought-out evidence and you would stick with your 16 evidence as given today, rather than any statements in 17 the SIU Report? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, there is something that I found 20 quite interesting in your evidence. You indicated that 21 after the traumatic events - but those weren't your words 22 - of September 1995, that there was assistance provided 23 to Kettle Point. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: How many people from Kettle Point do
2101 -- as -- can you recall were involved in the serious 2 clashes between -- with the police? 3 A: None that I can recall. 4 Q: They had Cecil Bernard, -- 5 A: Well -- 6 Q: -- we heard the evidence of Gerald 7 George, -- 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: -- about his casual involvement. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: We heard his reporting back to Chief 12 Bressette, and we heard of them meeting with the police. 13 But they were able to get access to healing measures or 14 funding for healing? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And as far as the people up on 17 Aazhoodena is concerned, the people who really bore the 18 brunt of it, there was nothing? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And between 1995, the incidents of 21 1995 and now, has the Federal Government provided any 22 form of healing assistance to the people in Aazhoodena? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Has the Chief and Council from Kettle 25 Point provided any assistance to the people in
2111 Aazhoodena? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Is it fair to say that the people 4 from Aazhoodena have been treated just as bad by the 5 Federal Government and by the Chief and Council from 6 Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, I ask you these because, in the 9 event that these lands are returned to the people of 10 Aazhoodena, could you perhaps tell the Commissioner what 11 you would anticipate, if the lands are turned back under 12 the administration of the Chief and Kettle Point, to look 13 after your people at Aazhoodena? Tell him what you think 14 would happen. 15 A: The same thing that's always happened 16 to these people. They would be -- they would be treated 17 as a lesser people. They -- they would be treated, if 18 there's monies for housing, the people of Kettle Point 19 will get the houses first before these people will. 20 They will -- they will be put in, like we 21 were, placed in a swampy area, in Kettle Point, and we 22 had to build up the land, and we were allowed to build 23 our house back on a swampy area where there was problems 24 with drainage. 25 They just -- and jobs are always given to
2121 the people from Kettle Point rather than the people from 2 Stoney Point. They're just treated as a second class 3 group of people, I'll say. They're not treated as -- as 4 equal. 5 Q: And that started -- to the best of 6 your recollection, when did this problem of this -- this 7 division between the Kettle Pointers and Stoney Pointers, 8 how far back did this go? 9 A: Oh, I think it started back when 10 these people were first displaced and placed on Kettle 11 Point lands. They didn't want them there. Those people 12 didn't want to be there and it's been that way ever 13 since. 14 Q: Mrs. George, I thank you and thank 15 you, Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. Any re-examination? 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Only one (1) item, Mr. 19 Commissioner, if I may. 20 21 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: Mrs. George, you had commented in 23 response to Ms. Tuck-Jackson about a fire that you had 24 come across? 25 A: Yes.
2131 Q: I wonder if you might just tell us a 2 bit about that. I'm just trying to determine where 3 exactly that was; was this outside the main gate at the 4 Army Camp? 5 A: It was outside of the fence area that 6 travels down -- when I say I travelled down the dirt 7 road. 8 Q: Would that help you if we put the map 9 up on the screen - if you could assist us there. 10 A: Okay. So if you're travelling out -- 11 down that dirt road, it was just like right on that 12 fenced area that's outside of the built up area. Not 13 right on Army Camp Road but along that area there. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Those are 15 all my questions, Mr. Commissioner. And on behalf of the 16 Commission, Mrs. George, we want to thank you for coming 17 here and providing your testimony. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much for coming here today and providing us with 20 your testimony. I know it's not easy for you, so thank 21 you very, very much. It's been a long day, too. Thank 22 you. 23 24 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 25
2141 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 2 brings us to the end of today. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: We'll convene 'til 9:00 4 a.m. tomorrow morning, Mr. Commissioner? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9:00 a.m. 6 tomorrow morning. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 8 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, February the 1st at 9 9:00 a.m. 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 5:05 p.m. 12 13 14 Certified Correct, 15 16 17 18 ___________________ 19 Wendy Warnock 20 21 22 23 24 25