11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 20th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) (np) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Maureen Smith )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Annie Leeks ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan Mackey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 TINA RENE GEORGE; Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 8 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 31 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 37 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 48 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 59 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 114 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Trevor Hinnegan 121 13 14 HARLEY IAN GEORGE; Sworn 15 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 128 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 196 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 200 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 247 19 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 251 20 21 22 Certificate of Transcript 254 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-132 April 15/96 Letter to 25 4 Ms. E. Thunder, Band 5 Administrator, Chippewas 6 of Kettle & Stony Point from 7 Shari Cunningham, Area Manager, 8 Windsor, Ministry of Community 9 and Social Services; and Letter 10 Dated May 01/96 to Tina R. George 11 from E. Thunder, Band Administrator 12 and A. David Henry, Social Services 13 Administrator, Kettle & Stony 14 Point Council 15 P-133 Document 1010734, January 24/96 29 16 Stoney Point Negotiations Team 17 Meeting Minutes. 18 P-134 Excerpt from Maintenance Shed 70 19 DVD 9-07-95 O:56:06 to 0:56:09 20 P-135 Document 1003031 Photographs 90 21 Taken by Ronald Taylor Aug 31/95 22 and Document 1002327 Jan 26/96 23 Statement from Ronald Taylor to SIU 24 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS, (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No 3 P-136 Document 1002409 Page 13 Map 141 4 of Ipperwash Military Reserve 5 Marked by Witness Mr. Harley 6 George, Jan 20/05 7 P-137 Document 2002436, Page 35, 150 8 Schematic Diagram of Camp 9 Ipperwash Military Barracks 10 Marked by Witness Harley George, 11 Jan 20/05 12 P-138 "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 246 13 Sept 20/95, Marked by Witness 14 Harley George, January 20/051 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. Good morning. Yes, Ms. -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. Good 9 morning, Ms. George. 10 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 11 12 TINA RENE GEORGE, RESUMED 13 14 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: I understand that you wish to clarify 16 part of your testimony that you gave yesterday? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Can you please advise the Commission? 19 A: I'd like to change my testimony from 20 about when the target practising took place. 21 Q: Proceed? Just proceed. 22 A: I am positive that it did not happen 23 on Monday, September 4th, 1995. I am positive that it 24 did not happen on Tuesday, September 5th of 1995, and I 25 am positive that it did not happen on Wednesday,
91 September 1995 and that it possibly happened sometime 2 after the fact when Dudley George was shot. 3 Q: Ms. George, when did you realize your 4 error? 5 A: While I was trying to go to sleep 6 last night and after I watched the news report on TV. 7 Q: Which news report was that? 8 A: On the New PL. 9 Q: And what in the news report caused 10 you concern? 11 A: It -- it led me to believe that it 12 took place on the night of September 5th before Dudley 13 was shot. 14 Q: Now, you were very clear with us 15 yesterday with respect to the date of the target 16 practising. And you'll recall that I was taking you 17 through your evidence on a day-by-day basis and we were 18 discussing the events of Tuesday, September the 6th. We 19 had not got to the events of the 7th and I have not asked 20 you any questions concerning events after September the 21 7th. 22 How is it that you can be so certain that 23 these events did not happen on Tuesday, September the 24 5th, as you testified yesterday? 25 A: Because I'm certain that I did not
101 see guns before Dudley George was shot. 2 Q: Ms. George, did you have any 3 conversations with anyone last night concerning your 4 recollection of the target practice incident? 5 A: Conversations? 6 Q: Yes, who did you talk to last night 7 about this? 8 A: I talked to my son. 9 Q: Dale Plain? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And did he advise you that you had 12 made an error? 13 A: Along that line. 14 Q: And who else did you speak with? 15 A: My lawyer. 16 Q: Okay. Did you speak to Marlin Simon? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you speak with Russ Jewel? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you speak with other members at 21 Aazhoodena last night or this morning about your -- your 22 recollection? 23 A: My recollection? I -- I spoke with 24 Marg George this morning and expressed that I was upset 25 because it's hard to -- it's hard to recollect ten (10)
111 years prior to what you did on a certain night and a 2 person can very well be mixed up on their dates. 3 Q: You were very clear yesterday that -- 4 as to the sequence of events, namely that you left the 5 maintenance building which you had been occupying with 6 Russ Jewel. Do you agree with that? 7 A: That I left the maintenance building 8 with Russ Jewel? 9 Q: That's right. You said you -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- left the building and that you 12 took his dark blue Satellite car. And that on the way up 13 to the barracks he suggested that -- that he would go 14 find Marlin Simon and there would be some -- for -- for 15 target practising. 16 And that the -- that you find Marlin Simon 17 and went to the bush by the inland lakes in the Military 18 Base. And that approximately somewhere around ten (10) 19 or certainly over one (1) and up to ten (10) shots were 20 fired with one (1) long-barrelled single-barrelled rifle. 21 A: Did I say up to five (5)? 22 Q: I don't believe you said up to five 23 (5). I believe you said no more than ten (10) more than 24 one (1), but in any event; do you recall that -- that 25 evidence?
121 A: Yesterday? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And do you agree that the sequence of 5 events are still accurate? 6 A: As to target practising on -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- on that Tuesday night? 9 Q: No, leave the date aside, just -- you 10 were there. Leave the date aside for a moment. Do you 11 agree that what I said is what happened? 12 A: Not on Tuesday or the Monday or the 13 Wednesday. 14 Q: I appreciate that that's your 15 evidence, but do you agree that that's the way it 16 happened, whether it was on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or 17 after September the 6th, is that the way it happened? 18 A: I'm not really sure if we came from 19 the maintenance building. We could have been riding 20 around, like, ten (10) years is a long time. 21 Q: And you were -- when did you leave 22 the maintenance building? 23 A: On which day? 24 Q: Approximately when did you move out 25 of the maintenance building?
131 A: It would either be March or May of 2 1996. 3 Q: Ms. George, is it fair to say that 4 you felt that -- that you -- you came under pressure last 5 night because you realized that your evidence could be 6 damaging? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that that's the reason why you 9 have changed your evidence today? 10 A: It could be damaging through the news 11 media. Half the time the news media doesn't print what 12 is right. 13 Q: Well, with respect to that part of 14 your evidence, the news media was correct. 15 Now, what I'm suggesting to you is that 16 the reason why you have changed your evidence is not 17 because -- that it was in error yesterday, but rather 18 because you came under pressure to change your evidence. 19 A: Under pressure from myself because I 20 never came across any guns on that Monday, that Tuesday, 21 or that Wednesday before Dudley George was shot. 22 Q: How can you be so certain of that 23 now? 24 A: There was no way I would take my kids 25 out after twelve o'clock to do some goddamned target
141 practising, at any time. 2 Q: Yesterday you suggested that your 3 child was with you in the car, I believe? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And now you're changing that part of 6 your evidence? 7 A: I'm not changing whether my children 8 were there, I said I can't be sure if one (1) of them 9 were there or both of them. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Ms. George, I'm going to suggest to 15 you that, in fact, the way that you told -- gave your 16 evidence yesterday was correct and that this event took 17 place on Tuesday, September the 5th. 18 A: I'm going to have to disagree with 19 that. 20 Q: I'd like to move on with your 21 evidence, then. Yesterday we attempted to show an 22 excerpt from a surveillance tape that was taken on 23 September the 6th, 1995, and I have switched machines. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And I would like to show you that
151 segment again and I would like to show you a longer 2 segment to ask you to confirm your -- confirm your 3 evidence and to ask you some further questions about that 4 tape. 5 And for the record, this is Exhibit P-130. 6 And we're showing the frame and there's a woman who goes 7 by there and a man. Now, the -- I've stopped it at the 8 02:51:42. Do you agree that that person is Russ Jewel? 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 A: Yes, I do agree. 13 Q: All right. And just prior to that 14 frame there was a woman who walked back and forth and you 15 said yesterday it was either yourself or Gina George. 16 A: I said it looked like me or Gina 17 George. 18 Q: All right. And I'd like to continue 19 with this video -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- because that person comes through 22 the -- the image again. Does that assist you? 23 A: That is not a clear picture. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: No. I can -- no, it does -- no.
161 Q: I'll continue with it, then. 2 A: It's got to be clearer than that in 3 order for me to say that is me. 4 Q: Would you please have a look at the 5 screen? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 7 have you got a good angle to see that, or would you like 8 to move over where you can see it a little better? 9 THE WITNESS: I can -- I can see that -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can see 11 better from where you are? 12 THE WITNESS: -- better through the TV 13 than -- better than on here. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: What I'm going to do is 15 fast forward this. I've started it from the beginning. 16 It's 21:10:29. What I've done is I've fast -- I'm fast 17 forwarding it, Commissioner, to get back to the place 18 where I was. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Would you look at this person, 24 please? I've stopped it at 22:19:26, I think. 25
171 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: Did you recognize that woman? 4 A: Yeah, I think that's me. 5 Q: Thank you. I've stopped the tape at 6 22:20:14 and the last series of frames has been 7 identified as Tina George. 8 I'm sorry, quite right. I said a.m., of 9 course it's p.m. Excuse me. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just for the record, 14 I'm continuing to fast forward the DVD. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Stop the video at 00:32:35. Do you 20 recognize those two (2) women? 21 A: 00:32? 22 Q: It might be 01:32 a.m., I'll clarify 23 that when I proceed. 24 A: That one I don't recognize. 25 Q: All right. Do you recognize the
181 activity? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: I'll continue to run it. And, yes, I 6 believe that is 1:32 a.m. 7 8 (VIDEO PLAYING) 9 10 A: It looks like somebody -- one's make 11 -- they're making sandwiches. 12 Q: And sometimes people come over to 13 make sandwiches in the maintenance building? 14 A: Yeah, it's the closest place. My 15 home -- that place was never locked. Only when I'm on 16 the inside. But if I went away, it was never locked. 17 Q: All right. I'll -- going to proceed 18 to fast forward this. 19 A: Yeah, she's eating. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 A: Yeah, those are sandwiches. 24 Q: Those are sandwiches? 25 A: Yeah, there's -- they -- they are
191 sandwiches. She's putting them in a plastic bag. 2 3 (VIDEO PLAYING) 4 5 Q: All right, I've slowed it down again. 6 It's 22:20 p.m. and that's the image that you had just 7 previously identified as yourself in there? 8 A: Yeah. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 A: Yeah. 13 14 (VIDEO PLAYING) 15 16 Q: All right, now we're -- I've stopped 17 it at 2:50:26. We're going to proceed from that point. 18 It's September the 6th, 1995 and please look at the 19 screen. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 Q: Now we've just seen a woman pass by 24 through the frame and now we're at 2:51:40, and we see 25 the -- a man pass her. You've identified the man as Russ
201 Jewel. Are you able now to identify the woman who was 2 there? 3 A: No. That camera is too blurry. 4 Q: I'm playing the video further, to see 5 if that will assist you. 6 A: I -- I see on the side of her that 7 she has somewhat of shorter hair here, but... 8 Q: Yeah. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: I'm just going to conclude the -- it 13 ends at 3:01 in the morning, so we'll just play this 14 through. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING) 17 18 Q: All right, that's the conclusion of 19 the -- this -- this DVD video. Ms. George, I'm going to 20 suggest to you that the person who immediately proceeded 21 Russ Jewel was yourself based on the clothing, the same 22 shorts, the same tee shirt, the long hair. Do you agree? 23 A: I still say that's too fuzzy for me 24 to agree. 25 Q: All right. Fair enough. Now, at
211 some point in time did you find out that you had been 2 recorded on police surveillance tapes in the maintenance 3 building? 4 A: Yes, I did find that out. 5 Q: And when did you find that out? 6 A: September 14th, the year 2003. 7 Q: From whom did you find out about 8 these tapes? 9 A: From Lynette Fortune. She's the 10 executive producer of the Fifth Estate or -- yeah, the 11 Fifth Estate. 12 Q: All right. And did you learn how 13 long a video cam -- the surveillance camera had been 14 operating in the maintenance building? 15 A: Through Peter Edwards' newspaper 16 report of March 27th, 2004 -- through his newspaper 17 report I learned that the tape was running for -- in his 18 newspaper thing, I'm pretty sure it says thirty (30) 19 days. 20 Q: Now what was -- did you have an 21 opportunity to review any of the video tape footage? 22 A: Not video tape. I've had opportunity 23 to view a couple of pictures, a side view shot of myself 24 with no top on and shorts and the -- the picture that 25 Peter Edwards had in the newspaper when I first seen
221 that, I thought it looked like Gina Tessier (phonetic). 2 Then again, it looks like myself. And I still have doubts 3 as to if it is Gina Tessier in that specific picture. 4 Q: Now what was your reaction when you 5 learned that there had been a surveillance camera 6 operating in the maintenance building? 7 A: I was stunned. I was surprised and I 8 was shocked. I really would have liked to swore at that 9 time, but I didn't want to swear in front of Lynette. 10 Q: Okay. And why were you so angry? 11 A: Why? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: For one (1) thing I never asked for 14 it. Why I was so angry? I don't like people taking 15 pictures of me when I don't know. That's like somebody 16 standing out in the dark looking in your windows at 17 night. 18 Q: And prior to Lynette Fortune advising 19 you of the existence of these cameras, had you any idea 20 that there were surveillance cameras in the maintenance 21 building? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: In 1995/96, what was your main source 24 of income? 25 A: I was a single mother, living on
231 welfare. 2 Q: Who administered the welfare to you? 3 A: Lambton County. On -- there was a 4 few months there that Kettle Point did. 5 Q: And did you continue to receive 6 social assistance throughout 1996? 7 A: Yes, if I can recall correctly, I 8 did. 9 Q: I'd like to show you a document. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I'm showing to you, a letter dated 14 April 15, 1996, addressed to Ms. Elizabeth Thunder, Band 15 Administrator, Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: From Sherry Cunningham, area manager, 18 Windsor Area Office, Ministry of Community and Social 19 Services. And also a Notice dated May 1, 1996 on Kettle 20 and Stony Point Council letterhead addressed to yourself 21 and signed -- it appears to be signed by Elizabeth 22 Thunder and David Henry. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you receive this Notice and 25 letter?
241 A: Pardon? 2 Q: Did you receive this Notice and 3 letter? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And do you recall why you received 6 this letter and Notice? 7 A: Because they said that they weren't 8 able to help us at the social assistance building in 9 Kettle Point and that we -- I would have to go to the 10 County of Lambton. 11 Q: And what was your reaction when you 12 received this notification from Kettle and Stony Point 13 Council? 14 A: My reaction? 15 Q: Yes 16 A: I can't -- I can't remember what my 17 reaction was, but. 18 Q: Did you take any steps to address the 19 situation? 20 A: With who? 21 Q: With anyone? With the Band Council 22 or the government? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did -- did your social assistance 25 resume?
251 A: Through the County of Lambton. 2 Q: And when did it resume? 3 A: By this letter, he said he was only 4 going to support me for May, so it would have to resume 5 in June. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: With the County of Lambton. 8 Q: I'd like to make that the next 9 exhibit, please. The Notice from Kettle and Stony Point 10 Council dated May 1, 1996, enclosing a letter from the 11 Ministry of Community and Social Services dated April 15, 12 1996. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-132. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-132: April 15/96 Letter to 16 Ms. E. Thunder, Band 17 Administrator, Chippewas 18 of Kettle & Stony Point from 19 Shari Cunningham, Area Manager, 20 Windsor, Ministry of Community 21 and Social Services; and Letter 22 Dated May 01/96 to Tina R. George 23 from E. Thunder, Band Administrator 24 and A. David Henry, Social Services 25 Administrator, Kettle & Stony
261 Point Council 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr Registrar, can you 4 put the witness brief before the Witness, please? It was 5 on the table. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: I'm showing you a document. It's 11 Inquiry Document Number 1010734. It's found at Tab 4 of 12 the brief. And it appears to be minutes of a meeting 13 dated January 24, 1996 and there are various attendees at 14 this meeting, Liz Thunder, Yellow Fox, Greg George, Tina 15 George, Brent, Judas, Mike Cloud, Worm, Marlene Cloud, 16 and others. 17 Do you recall attending at this meeting? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: So tell me what the -- the purpose of 20 this meeting was? 21 A: It was a Stoney Point -- Kettle and 22 Stony Point negotiations meeting. 23 Q: And what was the negotiation about? 24 A: No specific reason. 25 Q: What was being discussed at this
271 meeting? 2 A: Various things. 3 Q: All right. Was one (1) of the things 4 that you were discussing the returns of -- of the Camp 5 Ipperwash and Provincial Park lands? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: And these were discussions that 8 members from the Stoney Point group were having with the 9 Band Council? 10 A: I don't think the whole Band Council 11 was there. 12 Q: All right. But it was with Kettle 13 and Stony Point? 14 A: People from Kettle Point and Stoney 15 Point. 16 Q: And can you tell me what came of 17 these negotiations and how long they -- they continued 18 for? 19 A: Nothing really comes of these 20 negotiations and they -- they're still trying to continue 21 it today. 22 Q: All right. Now, is Worm, Stewart 23 George, as identified in this -- these minutes? 24 A: Is Worm Stewart George? 25 Q: Yes. I'm just trying to --
281 A: Yes, yes. 2 Q: -- understand. There's some -- some 3 nicknames here. I just want to verify the people who 4 were at this meeting. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And Judas would be Roderick 7 George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And who is Yellow Fox? 10 A: That's Robert Isaac. 11 Q: Robert Isaac? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And Brent or Ben? 14 A: Ben Pouget. 15 Q: Okay. And who is Victor Gulewitsch? 16 A: Some guy, I recall he's supposed to 17 be some researcher for the Kettle Point Band. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. And do you 19 recall a Paul Henry? 20 A: Vaguely. 21 Q: Do you know who he was or who he -- 22 A: I know who he is, yes. 23 Q: Who -- what was his role at this 24 meeting? 25 A: I'm not sure.
291 Q: Fair enough. I'd like to make that 2 the next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-133. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-133: Document 1010734, January 6 24/96 7 Stoney Point Negotiations Team 8 Meeting Minutes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And you described yesterday, the 12 evening of September the 6th, 1995 and -- and your 13 experience there. Can you tell me what, if any, impact 14 this event has had on you? 15 A: What impact? 16 Q: Impact that the shooting of Dudley 17 George, the injuries to Nicholas Cotrelle? 18 A: It makes me fucking mad. 19 Q: And why is that? 20 A: Do you see my cousin, Dudley, sitting 21 around here? No. 22 Q: Okay. What do you think should 23 happen to the Park and Camp Ipperwash now? 24 A: What do I think should be happening? 25 Q: Yes.
301 A: It should be left alone. 2 Q: Left alone meaning that the status 3 quo should be preserved? 4 A: It should be left alone. 5 Q: What do you mean by that? 6 A: It should be given back to the people 7 and not bothered with. 8 Q: Thank you. Those conclude my 9 questions. Thank you, Ms. George. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Who 11 has intention to cross-examine the Witness? Please stand 12 up. Let's go through it then as we do. Yes, sir, how 13 long do you anticipate? 14 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Probably twenty (20) 15 or thirty (30) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 17 or thirty (30) minutes? Are you marking this down? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you 20 have -- 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) to ten (10) 22 minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) to 24 ten (10) minutes? Any other aboriginal Parties? No? 25 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson?
311 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 2 ten (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 4 minutes? Mr. McGilp...? 5 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thirty (30) to forty 6 (40) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 8 McAleer...? 9 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Probably ten (10) 10 to fifteen (15). 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir? 12 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: About five (5) 13 minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 15 should get right on with it. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 21 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 22 Vilko Zbogar. I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate 23 and Family of Dudley George. 24 Yesterday you were shown a photo or -- and 25 this morning as well, you were shown a photo and a video
321 of Russ Jewel in the maintenance shed at 2:51 a.m. 2 holding something in his left hand. Do you know what he 3 was holding? 4 A: Not exactly. 5 Q: Would you agree that since it was the 6 middle of the night, it might have been a flashlight? 7 A: It may have been a flashlight, yes. 8 Q: Yesterday you referred to a female 9 OPP officer named Eve or Eves who was pointing a gun at 10 you while you were holding your daughter on September 11 7th, 1995. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I expect we will hear evidence that 14 an OPP Sergeant named Marg Eve, was involved at Ipperwash 15 at the time. Does that name, Marg Eve or Margaret Eve, 16 sound familiar? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Is that the person who was pointing a 19 gun at you on September 7th while you were holding your 20 daughter? 21 A: I'm pretty sure. 22 Q: Yesterday, you also said there -- 23 that you thought there was a Sagamuk police car in the 24 Park on the Tuesday or the Wednesday just before the 25 shooting of Dudley. Is that right?
331 A: If I can recall correctly -- if I can 2 recall correctly. 3 Q: Okay. Now, so far, no other 4 witnesses have said that they saw a Sagamuk police car at 5 the Park before Dudley was shot, however, we do expect 6 that there will be witnesses that will say that First 7 Nations Police from around the province came to Ipperwash 8 to help after Dudley's shooting. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, this was many years ago so is it 11 possible that your memory was mistaken in that -- about 12 the date on which you saw the Sagamuk car? 13 A: Oh yes, it's possible. Ten (10) 14 years is a long time. 15 Q: It's possible that that car would 16 have only been in the Park after the shooting of Dudley 17 George? 18 A: It's possible. 19 Q: You talked about your daughters, 20 Phoebe and Jule, who were about two (2) and a half and 21 five (5) and a half at the time of September 1995. Now, 22 I imagine you would never do anything to put them in the 23 way of danger? 24 A: Heavens, no. 25 Q: Prior to Dudley's shooting, would you
341 agree that there was nothing that any of the Occupiers 2 were doing inside the Park that would give you reason to 3 fear for the safety of your daughters? Would you -- 4 A: They were -- 5 Q: Would you agree that there was 6 nothing to give you cause for fear? 7 A: Yes, I would agree to that. 8 Q: And, in particular, to your knowledge 9 there were no guns inside the Park and no intention to -- 10 to -- of the Occupiers to initiate any kind of violence? 11 A: Yes, that is true. 12 Q: We've heard evidence from other 13 witnesses about a treaty in 1928. Sorry, we've heard 14 evidence from other witnesses about a treaty between your 15 people and the Government about the original Stoney Point 16 Reserve, that was guaranteed by the treaty, and about an 17 alleged surrender of reserve lands in 1928. 18 I want to ask you some questions about 19 whether those things were ever mentioned by the police 20 and -- and others and you mentioned several occasions in 21 which you saw -- several occasions in the days leading up 22 to the shooting of Dudley in which you saw encounters 23 with members of the OPP or others. 24 I want to ask you, before the shooting, 25 did any police officer say or do anything at any time,
351 that suggested to you, that he or she might be aware of 2 the treaty between your people and the Government? 3 A: Did any police officer give me that 4 impression that they were aware of a 1928 treaty? 5 Q: That's the question, yes. 6 A: Any police officer give me -- 7 Q: Did -- did any -- anything that any 8 police officer say or do in the days before the shooting, 9 give you the impression that they knew about the treaty? 10 A: No, I didn't talk to no police as far 11 as I can remember. 12 Q: And in any of the -- you said you saw 13 the police talking to other people, from time to time? 14 A: Yeah, I recall -- 15 Q: There was an incident with Dudley on 16 the beach. There was -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- on the 4th, when you went into the 19 Park, there were police there that you saw. During any 20 of those incidents did -- did anything that any police 21 officer say or -- anything that any police officer said 22 or did give you the impression that they were aware of 23 that treaty? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Prior to the shooting, did any police
361 officer say or do anything that suggested to you that he 2 or she might be aware that the Ipperwash parklands were 3 part of the original Stoney Point Reserve, that was 4 guaranteed to your people? 5 A: I never got no impression like that 6 of any officer. 7 Q: And did you get any impression prior 8 to the shooting that any -- well, prior to the shooting, 9 did any police officer refer to the 1928 Surrender as a 10 reason for your People not being allowed to be in the 11 Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Prior to the shooting did any police 14 officer ever make any reference to any reason why the 15 original Reserve should no longer be considered to be 16 part of your Reserve? 17 A: I never got no impression off of no 18 police officers. 19 Q: And did -- I think you said you saw 20 Mr. Kobayashi speaking with some of the -- some of your 21 fellow occupiers of the Park. 22 Did you see any other Ministry of Natural 23 Resources or Parks officials of other government people, 24 in the days before the shooting of Dudley, or just Mr. 25 Kobayashi?
371 A: Did I see anyone else other than Les 2 Kobayashi attempting to make conversation with any of the 3 occupiers? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Not that I can recall. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Now, do you -- did you hear what Mr. 8 Kobayashi, at any time on the 4th or -- or 5th or 6th, 9 was saying to the people he was talking with, on that 10 occasion? 11 A: No. I was too far away to hear. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 13 questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Esmonde...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 18 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 19 Jackie Esmonde and I'm one (1) of the lawyers 20 representing the Aazhoodena and George Family Group, 21 which includes some of the descendants of Dan and Melva 22 George. 23 You spoke to us yesterday about the Stoney 24 Point Negotiating Committee that you observed meeting at 25 -- as a teenager?
381 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did this committee have any kind of 3 formal relationship to the Kettle and Stony Point Band 4 Council? 5 A: A formal relationship? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Not that I can recall. 8 Q: Was it recognized by the Kettle and 9 Stony Point Band Council? 10 A: I think so. 11 Q: And in what way was it recognized by 12 the Band Council? 13 A: I think that they knew that the 14 actual -- some of the actual descendants had enough of 15 their bullshit. 16 Q: Had enough of whose bullshit? 17 A: Kettle Point Council. 18 Q: Okay. And what do you mean by that? 19 A: People need to understand that most 20 people -- Stoney Point -- I will speak for myself. I 21 have no qualms with people on Kettle Point. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: It would be with the Band Council and 24 the Chief, at the time and until this day. 25 Q: Okay. And what was your concern
391 about the Band Council and the Chief? 2 A: My concern is that they don't have no 3 authority to speak for me or my father. 4 Q: And is that because you see the 5 Stoney Point Band, as separate? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that -- I think I understand from 8 you that you want the land returned to the Stoney Point 9 people. 10 A: Yes, that's where it should be. 11 Q: You don't want compensation for the 12 land, you want the land itself? 13 A: I want the land. You can't grow 14 potatoes and corn on money. The land is priceless. 15 Q: And that includes both the -- what 16 became the Park and what was the Army base? 17 A: And that's what I stated at that 18 January -- at this meeting here, but I don't see any 19 place in these papers where I said that the land is 20 priceless. 21 Q: Okay. And the papers you're 22 referring to are the minutes from the January 1996 -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- Stoney Point -- 25 A: Yes.
401 Q: -- meeting? Now, I think you also 2 said yesterday when you were speaking about your entry 3 into the Park on September 4th, that you called your 4 father? 5 A: Yes, I -- I did. 6 Q: So you called Mr. Abraham George 7 after the Park had been occupied? 8 A: Yes, I believe I called from the 9 store phone. 10 Q: And your father came to the Park? 11 A: Right away, quick. 12 Q: Okay. How old was your father at 13 that time? 14 A: Let's see. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: He would be approximately seventy 19 (70). 20 Q: And did you see him in the Park -- 21 A: Just wait. I'm thinking of my Mom's 22 birthrate. 23 Q: I don't need an exact date, just -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- if you could just approximate.
411 A: He would be a little over seventy 2 (70) then. 3 Q: Okay. And did you see him in the 4 Park in the days following? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. I'd like to jump ahead to the 7 evening of September 6th, 1995, and you told us that Russ 8 Jewel came to you and told you that Dudley had been shot? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you hear any popping sounds or 11 anything that could have been gunfire, prior to that? 12 A: I was not outside. I was inside the 13 building. 14 Q: Okay. And then you went up to the 15 built-up area? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you told us yesterday that you 18 saw Marcia Simon and Melva George leaving the built-up 19 area to try and get an ambulance? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I'd like to ask you some more 22 details about that event. We have heard from Marcia 23 Simon about what she said happened that evening. We 24 haven't heard from any police officers, but I understand 25 that some of them have a somewhat different version of
421 events than what Marcia Simon has testified to. 2 A: Well, I would imagine. 3 Q: Okay. Though they do seem to 4 contradict themselves as well. You saw her actually 5 leave at the gate, the main gate? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you know how she was following 8 the speed limit at that time? 9 A: I couldn't tell. 10 Q: You couldn't tell? 11 A: I think they -- she probably was 12 driving faster than normal in order to get an ambulance. 13 Q: Okay. But you couldn't tell? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Did you see her at the stop 16 sign? 17 A: I seen her turn left. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: The corner. 20 Q: Do you recall if she -- do you recall 21 seeing her stop, make a complete stop at that stop sign, 22 before turning? 23 A: I believe so. Maybe. 24 Q: Okay. And what is your memory of 25 whether there were cruisers at that corner, at the time
431 that she left? 2 A: Yeah, there was cruisers at that 3 corner, one (1) or two (2). I witnessed one (1) 4 following her. 5 Q: Okay. And can you tell me -- can you 6 tell me were those -- they were OPP cruisers? 7 A: They were white. 8 Q: Okay. Can you tell me where they 9 were at that intersection? Were they on the side of the 10 road? Were they -- where were they positioned? 11 A: I would say that they were right on 12 the road. 13 Q: Okay. And can you -- can you 14 identify where on the road they were? 15 A: On Highway 21 in -- right at Army 16 Camp. 17 Q: Okay. So they were on Highway 21. 18 Were they on the north or south side of Highway 21? 19 A: Were they on the north or the south 20 of Highway 21? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Did I just say that they were right 23 on the road? 24 Q: I'm trying to -- which lane were they 25 in?
441 A: I have no idea. I'm about a quarter 2 of a mile down the road. 3 Q: Okay. Could you see any police 4 officers in the cruisers? 5 A: No. It was dark. 6 Q: And would you agree with me that they 7 weren't blocking the intersection? 8 A: Again. I was way down the road and I 9 can't see what part of the road that they are on. 10 Q: And you did see a cruiser follow her? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it was one of the two (2) that 13 you had seen that you just described? 14 A: I believe so. Yes. 15 Q: Did you see any cruisers on Army Camp 16 Road driving south? 17 A: While I was standing there -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- at that particular time? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Driving south as to coming towards 22 myself? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Not that I can recall. No. 25 Q: Did you see -- I understand that you
451 were some distance away, did you see any officers jump 2 out of the ditch with guns as they were leaving the 3 intersection? 4 A: When they were going to pursue 5 Marcia? 6 Q: When Marcia was turning at the 7 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 8 A: No. No, I didn't see. 9 Q: Okay. But you knew that Marcia Simon 10 and Melva George were -- had left to get ambulances to 11 help people who may have been hurt? 12 A: Most definitely. 13 Q: Now, you also observed, so you were 14 also in the car when Gina George went out to the 15 intersection to get an ambulance for her son? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did you see her go out to the 18 intersection, prior to that? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: Okay. Now, you believed at that time 21 that your nephew, Nicholas Cottrelle had been shot? 22 A: Yes. Gina could have went on the 23 inside to the corner but, then again, you'd have to ask 24 Gina George to be sure because I'm not Gina. 25 Q: Okay. I'm just -- I'm going to focus
461 on what you can remember, so I'm just going to ask you 2 about what happened when you went out with her? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Now, did you -- you've told us that 5 you believe that Nicholas Cotrelle had been shot and did 6 you know that he had been wounded in the back? 7 A: Wounded someplace. 8 Q: Okay. Were you concerned about 9 moving him? 10 A: Somewhat. Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And you described yesterday 12 what happened when you went out to the intersection. And 13 they -- you said that they wanted you to put your hands 14 in the air, that the police who you were speaking with 15 wanted you and Gina to put your hands in the air and they 16 had guns pointed at you; is that correct? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: And did they also want Nicholas 19 Cottrelle to get out of the car and put his hands in the 20 air? 21 A: I believe so. Yes. 22 Q: And can you recall how long you 23 waited for the ambulance attendant to come to the car? 24 A: From which -- 25 Q: Once you had reached the
471 intersection? 2 A: From the time that Gina, myself and 3 Nicholas -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- got to the Highway? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And how long did the ambulance come? 8 Q: How long did it take before an 9 ambulance attendant was looking at Nicholas Cottrelle? 10 A: From the time he got there? 11 Q: With you? 12 A: From the time the ambulance attendant 13 arrived at the scene where we were, until he got to 14 Nicholas? Q: Okay. I'll rephrase my question to 15 try and be clearer. You went out to the intersection in 16 the car? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: From the time that you arrived at the 19 -- that you stopped at that intersection -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- what was the length of time 22 between that point and the point at which an ambulance 23 attendant was looking at Nicholas Cottrelle, in the car? 24 A: I can't really be specific. 25 Q: Okay. Was it more than five (5)
481 minutes? 2 A: I would say more than five (5) 3 minutes. Q: More than ten (10) minutes? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. And you -- you told us 6 yesterday that you could hear some people yelling at you 7 as well, and you heard the word "bitches"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you -- do you remember somebody 10 yelling, You bitches get your hands up in the air? 11 A: Vaguely. 12 Q: Okay. Okay, and you were to keep 13 your hands in the air the whole time that you were -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, those are 16 all of my questions. 17 A: You're welcome. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: Ms. George, my name is Andrea Tuck- 23 Jackson, and I'm here on behalf of the OPP. 24 I want to begin, if I can, about your 25 observations of the contact between Bert Manning and
491 members of the OPP. 2 Now, first of all, as I understand it, you 3 saw Mr. Manning speaking with a police officer, late on 4 the night of September the 4th, after you and the other 5 occupiers entered the Park. Do I have that correct? 6 A: On Army Camp Road? 7 Q: No, I'm referring to an earlier 8 incident that you described yesterday. You mentioned 9 that you noticed Bert Manning speaking with a police 10 officer, in the Park, on the night of September the 4th? 11 A: On the afternoon of September the 12 4th? 13 Q: I had understood that it was at a 14 time after you had entered the Park, which would be at 15 night? 16 A: It was still daylight. 17 Q: It was still daylight? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Do you know an OPP officer by 20 the name of Vince George? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. Can you recall now, 23 whether or not the officer that you saw Bert Manning 24 speaking with, was Vince George? 25 A: Like I said, they were at some
501 distance over, I knew Bert was standing there, but I 2 wasn't sure if it was Vince. And from where the point -- 3 from where we were going into the Park, you can't see 4 their faces, they were -- they were -- they looked just 5 like a silhouette, so -- 6 Q: All right. 7 A: -- to me. 8 Q: I understand. Can you assist us and 9 tell us how long after you arrived at the Park, did you 10 see Bert Manning speaking with the police officer? 11 A: He was standing in the Park, when we 12 went in the Park through that other gate. 13 Q: All right. And is that the point 14 when you saw Mr. Manning speaking with the police 15 officer? 16 A: He was standing there. 17 Q: Speaking with the police officer? 18 A: I don't even know if he was saying 19 any words, but I said he was standing there. 20 Q: All right. I had -- had understood 21 from your evidence yesterday, that he was actually 22 speaking with an officer, you could not hear -- 23 A: Oh -- 24 Q: -- what he was saying, but he was 25 speaking with the officer?
511 A: No, I can't tell if he was speaking 2 with the officer, like I just said, it was a dist -- a 3 fair distance away. 4 Q: All right, and it was still light out 5 at that point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Then I anticipate that -- 8 that what you're describing is something different that 9 what I anticipate we're going to hear about, which was 10 much later on, after dark, Vince George -- just let me 11 finish for a moment -- Vince George spoke with Bert 12 Manning? 13 A: It's possible. 14 Q: Do you recall seeing a second 15 incident later that night when it was dark? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Let's move on then to the 18 second time that you saw Bert Manning speaking with a 19 police officer, and that was somewhere on Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes, and it was daylight also. 21 Q: All right, that was daylight. I 22 anticipate, Ms. George, that we're going to hear that a 23 police officer by the name of Mark Wright, spoke with 24 Bert Manning on Tuesday, September the 5th, in the early 25 afternoon, down on Army Camp Road, close to actually the
521 -- the main gate, to the built-up area, the barracks. 2 Does that seem like the same encounter that you observed? 3 A: No. It was farther down the road. 4 Q: So it was further towards the lake? 5 A: It was just past the store there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I didn't see Bert Manning's -- I 8 don't recall him talking to any police officers by the 9 front gate. 10 Q: Okay. But you -- you definitely saw 11 him speaking with an officer, further up the road, 12 towards the lake? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And would it be fair to say that that 15 occurred in the early afternoon of Tuesday the 5th? 16 A: In the afternoon, but on the 5th? I 17 can't be sure of that. 18 Q: All right. It may have been the 5th 19 or it may have been the 6th, is that fair? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. You told us yesterday 22 that you shared your observation with your brother 23 Roderick. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you also told us that Roderick
531 wasn't very happy to learn that Bert Manning had been 2 speaking with the police officer. 3 A: Somewhat. 4 Q: All right. Now, I'm not asking you 5 to read your brother's mind because I know that's 6 impossible. But would it be fair to say that Roderick 7 left the impression with you, that he was upset that Bert 8 was talking to the police. 9 Because your brother didn't want any of 10 the occupiers communicating with the police? Or can you 11 say? 12 A: No, I can't say what my brother 13 wants. 14 Q: Okay. Because I'll be -- I'll be 15 frank with you, your brother has told us that he regarded 16 attempts by the police, to speak with the occupiers, as 17 harassment. 18 A: Can you say that again? 19 Q: Sure. Your brother Roderick told us 20 that he regarded attempts by the police to speak with the 21 occupiers and try and see if there was a way to resolve 22 this matter, he regarded that as harassment. 23 And so what I'm wondering, is that, when 24 you reported to him, that you had seen Bert Manning 25 speaking with the police officer, I'm wondering whether
541 Roderick said something to you that left you with the 2 impression that he didn't want any of the occupiers 3 speaking with the police. 4 A: No. He didn't leave me with that 5 impression. 6 Q: All right. But what he did leave you 7 with, was a sense that he wasn't very happy to learn that 8 Bert Manning was speaking with the police, as you told us 9 yesterday. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: You told us yesterday that -- that 14 when you conveyed to your brother Roderick that you'd 15 seen Bert talking to the police, he was not very happy. 16 A: No, and neither was myself. 17 Q: Okay. Then I'll ask you this. Why 18 weren't you happy about that? 19 A: No specific reason other than he was 20 talking to the police. 21 Q: Okay. I want to move onto another 22 area. You told us that on the evening of September the 23 6th, Russell Jewel came to you at the maintenance shed 24 and told you that when he'd been down by the Park store, 25 he kept hearing the word containment?
551 A: That's what he said. 2 Q: Okay. And with containment, what he 3 appeared to be saying to you was, that if all the 4 occupiers stayed in the Park, everyone would be safe? 5 A: That would -- that's what it appeared 6 like, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And you told us that you 8 weren't exactly sure where he'd learned about this, but 9 you assumed it was from a scanner? 10 A: That's what I assumed. 11 Q: Okay. Tell me why you assumed that. 12 Because -- I mean, again I'll step back for a minute and 13 I'll let you know -- 14 A: Well, because -- carry on. 15 Q: Thanks. I anticipate that we're 16 going to hear from the police, that indeed the reason 17 they walked down East Parkway Drive, was in order to move 18 the occupiers back in the Park. So, this is why this is 19 very interesting to me. 20 And we also know that a number of the 21 occupiers had at least one (1) scanner inside the Park. 22 So I'm curious, why did you get the impression that this 23 information about containment, came from a scanner? 24 A: No specific reason. 25 Q: It's just what you assumed?
561 A: Just what I assumed, yes. 2 Q: Okay. One (1) final point, Ms. 3 George. 4 A: But that night I didn't know they had 5 a scanner there, this -- 6 Q: So, did you put two (2) and two (2) 7 together after the fact then, after you learned that 8 there was scanners, that's when you figured out -- 9 A: It was some time after. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay, so after you heard that there 13 was scanners, that's when you put it together and you 14 realized, he must have heard this over the scanner? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay, fair enough. Last point. We 17 heard about the symbolic three (3) fires that were lit in 18 the area that's sometimes described as Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park, and I understand that those fires were 20 burning from the 4th, right through to the 6th, is that 21 correct? 22 A: It's possible, yes. 23 Q: Okay. But I was interested in 24 another fire that you described yesterday, and that was 25 when you left the Park area, after you learned of Dudley
571 George's shooting -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- and you were heading back towards 4 -- you call it downtown or uptown? 5 A: Uptown. 6 Q: Uptown, I like that phrase. All 7 right, you were heading uptown, you noticed another fire, 8 you noticed a fire -- 9 A: I -- I think I noticed a fire on the 10 side of the road or three (3). 11 Q: Exactly. Now, where was it again? 12 A: Alongside the road, if I can 13 correctly remember. 14 Q: Right, it was a little bit further 15 south of the Park area, between Army Camp Road and the 16 interior road on the Army Camp Base, the dirt road, is 17 that correct? 18 A: Off to the side, I think if I can 19 remember correctly, seeing a fire there. 20 Q: Okay, when you say off to the side, 21 what do you mean by that, Ms. George? 22 A: On the side of the road. 23 Q: Okay, all right. We're talking about 24 the same thing. And I trust, Ms. George, that you had 25 not noticed that fire before, that was new to the night
581 of September the 6th? 2 A: I can't be positive. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: That was a long time ago. 5 Q: I understand. You didn't mention it 6 before that you'd noticed it in any of your other travels 7 on the 5th, for example. So, fair to say that it stands 8 out in your mind, because that was the first you'd 9 noticed it on the evening of the 6th? 10 A: Again, it -- it is -- I vaguely 11 remember, it's possible that I seen a fire or three (3) 12 on the side of the road. 13 Q: So there may have even been three (3) 14 fires on the side of the road? 15 A: I can't be most -- I can't be 16 definite, that was a long time ago. 17 Q: I understand, all right. Ms. George, 18 thank you for your time. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Those are my 20 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. Mr. McGilp...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
591 MR. IAN MCGILP: Commissioner, with the 2 assistance of Ms. Newell, I propose to use certain videos 3 and photographs and I'm wondering if we could take the 4 morning break at this point, in order to give us a moment 5 to set that up. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, Mr. 7 McGilp. 8 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 10 the morning break now. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 10:20 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 10:40 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, Mr. 20 McGilp. 21 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 25 Q: Good morning, Ms. George.
601 A: Good morning. 2 Q: My name is Ian McGilp and I'm one (1) 3 of the lawyers who represent the OPP Association. It's 4 not the Force itself. The Association represents the 5 uniformed of -- or the rank and file officers, who work 6 for the OPP. 7 I have first, Ms. George, to ask you a 8 couple of questions about the incident when the -- when 9 you took over the barracks, the built-up area. Now when 10 Marlin Simon was here, he told us on October the 12th -- 11 we heard that Marlin told the Commission that they had -- 12 there had been a discussion and that a plan had been 13 developed to use the bus as a diversion. 14 And what he meant by that was that the 15 plan was that the bus would and did come in a gate that 16 was on the north or the beach side of the built-up area 17 and that the Military people who were present or on duty 18 that day, would move down to investigate this bus coming 19 into the area. 20 And while the Military people were down 21 there, other people would enter through the main gate of 22 the Army Camp. Do you recall that there was a plan to 23 use the bus in that kind of a manner? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You don't recall that?
611 A: No. 2 Q: You told us yesterday, ma'am that the 3 -- you tried to get on the bus yourself at one (1) point. 4 But that you were told that it was only young guys on the 5 bus. Is that what you said? 6 A: That's what I was told. 7 Q: That's what you were told. And you 8 weren't a young guy, right? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And do you remember who told you 11 that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No? 14 A: There was more one (1) -- than one 15 (1) young guy who told me that. 16 Q: More -- there was a bunch of them 17 telling you? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And do you know why they wanted only 20 young guys on the bus? 21 A: No. No, I don't. 22 Q: Were there any -- were there -- as 23 far as you can recollect and you may not be able to, were 24 there any people that weren't -- that were over eighteen 25 (18) years say?
621 A: I can't recollect their ages. 2 Q: You're not sure? Thank you, Ms. 3 George. Now the Military personnel filed incident 4 reports, not surprisingly, after that event of the bus 5 and the people coming. And there in fact were two (2) 6 incident reports. One was prepared by Captain Smith, who 7 was the commander of the -- of the Base. And his report 8 is at Document Number 700 0341. And there was also a 9 report prepared by a Corporal Todd, Document Number 700 10 244. 11 And Captain Smith's report indicates that 12 there were something like eighty (80) people and fifteen 13 (15) vehicles that came through the main gate. Now I 14 think yesterday you put the number much lower than that. 15 Does that, at all, refresh your memory as 16 to approximately how many people would have -- how many 17 vehicles would have come through the main gate, which is 18 I believe, where you entered? He said that there were 19 about fifteen (15) vehicles and eighty (80) people. 20 A: Well, I think that's a bit too much. 21 Q: A bit too much? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: But it would've been would you say a 24 dozen vehicles or ten (10) vehicles and fifty (50) 25 people? Would that be closer to your recollection?
631 A: It's hard to say. 2 Q: But in any event, eighty (80) and 3 fifteen (15) is a bit too much? 4 A: I think so, yeah. 5 Q: Thank you. Corporal Todd's report 6 indicates that the school bus, at some point, rammed into 7 the doors of the drill hall so that it was partially 8 inside the building and partially outside the building. 9 Do you remember seeing that at all? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You didn't see that? 12 A: I don't remember seeing that at all. 13 Q: Did -- Mr. Roderick George, when he 14 was here, also said that he did not see that happen but 15 that he did hear about it from others, later on. Do you 16 recall other -- hearing from other people that that had 17 happened? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? I take it then that -- well, I 20 shouldn't say I take it. Let me ask you, Corporal or 21 Captain Smith's incident report also indicates, that 22 after the bus crashed the doors, a -- a Military Jeep 23 parked behind the bus and that at some point the bus 24 reversed and pushed that Jeep backwards some forty (40) 25 or fifty (50) feet; did you happen to see that incident?
641 A: No. 2 Q: You didn't see that? 3 A: No. I can't recall that. 4 Q: You can't recall that? And, again, I 5 would just ask you the same question, do you recall 6 others telling you about that incident, later on, at all? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: No, I don't. Thank you. Corporal 9 Todd also says that several of the native persons who 10 were there were carrying sticks or metal bars, at some 11 point during the incident, and that several of the people 12 were chanting, Stone them, stone them; do you recall 13 hearing that at all? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And do you recall whether some of the 16 individuals that were present were carrying sticks or 17 metal bars, at all? 18 A: Do I recall? 19 Q: Do you recall seeing any of the 20 native persons, who occupied the built-up area that day-- 21 A: No, I -- I never seen anybody 22 carrying any sticks? 23 Q: Any stick or metal bar at all? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now, we've
651 heard evidence, again from Marlon Simon on September 2 28th, he told the Commission that the Military people and 3 certain heads of -- and some -- and some heads of certain 4 families of the occupiers, made an arrangement or an 5 agreement about which buildings would be occupied by the 6 -- by the natives and which would be left to the purposes 7 of the Military people. 8 Do you recall hearing that there was an 9 arrangement or an agreement of that kind, at all? 10 A: As to where occupiers and Military 11 would sleep? 12 Q: Would -- would be able -- which 13 buildings the Military would be able to use and which 14 buildings the occupiers would use? 15 A: Yes, I recall that. 16 Q: And Mr. Simon also told us that the 17 people didn't really respect those agreements, that 18 within a short time, in fact, the people took the 19 position that all the buildings should be occ -- or that 20 they had a right to occupy all the buildings and -- and 21 started looking around, or at least, started entering 22 barr -- all of the buildings; do you recall that? 23 A: I recall Roderick asking some of the 24 young guys to go and turn lights on in the buildings but 25 I'm really not -- I don't think the Military was there at
661 that point. 2 Q: The Military wasn't there at that 3 point? 4 A: Becau -- because it was much -- late 5 evening. 6 Q: That would have been late evening. 7 Do -- do you recall at all, Ms. George, 8 whether the arrangements that you referred to about who 9 would use which buildings, do you recall whether the 10 people respected that -- those arrangements or whether 11 they did not? 12 A: Oh, I recall that they respected 13 those arrangements. 14 Q: They respected them? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. If you'll just excuse me 17 for one (1) second, Ms. George, we're going to put up 18 another segment of -- of video from that camera that was 19 in the maintenance shed. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Ms. Hensel's reputation is about to 24 be tarnished, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Blame it on
671 Derry Millar. 2 MR. IAN MCGILP: It is definitely Mr. 3 Millar's fault. 4 THE WITNESS: He's not here to defend 5 himself. 6 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Ms. Knowles. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 9 Q: You'll see, Ms. George, that the -- 10 well, first of all, do you recognize the area that is 11 shown on the screen? 12 A: I believe that wall is in between the 13 two (2) garages. 14 Q: In the maintenance building? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. And you'll see that on the time 17 -- the time on the screen is September 7th at zero hours, 18 fifty-six (56) minutes which is almost one o'clock in the 19 morning on September the 7th. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Were you in the maintenance building 22 at that time, as far as you can recall? At one o'clock 23 in the morning, on September the 7th? 24 A: I don't think I was. On September 25 7th?
681 Q: On September the 7th? This -- but 2 it's only one o'clock in the morning. This would only be 3 a couple of hours after the unfortunate shooting of Mr. 4 Dudley George. And that was around eleven o'clock or 5 11:15, somewhere in that vicinity. 6 This is one o'clock in the morning. So 7 it's less than two (2) hours after that. Do you recall 8 whether you were in the maintenance shed? 9 A: When we went back down to the Park 10 before the store was lit, I don't recall going inside 11 there, best to my reco -- recollection. 12 Q: You don't recall going in the shed at 13 that point? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Would you please watch the video as 16 it runs forward please? And it'll only be few seconds. 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 Q: Is that you, Ms. George? Can you 21 tell from that picture if that's yourself? 22 A: The picture's a little blurry. From 23 the front of that shirt it looks like -- I don't know. 24 Q: Do you recognize the shirt? 25 A: That kind of looks like me, yes.
691 Q: Do you know what's in your right 2 hand? 3 A: Not right off hand. 4 Q: You can't make it out? 5 A: No. The picture's too blurry. 6 Q: Thank you. Can you -- are you able 7 to see enough -- see that photograph there well enough to 8 be able to tell us who that person is? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Who is that please? 11 A: I believe that's my nephew David 12 Abraham. 13 Q: David Abraham? 14 A: Also known as Super Dave. 15 Q: As Super Dave, also known as David 16 George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. Same question, Ms. 19 George. Can you help us identify that person, please? 20 A: I believe that's the same person I 21 just mentioned. 22 Q: David George or -- 23 A: Yeah, yes. 24 Q: -- Super Dave? 25 A: Yes.
701 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Ms. George, if 2 I may ask, when did you first meet Russell Jewel? 3 A: In May of 1995, down the beach. I 4 wasn't personally introduced to him but I asked who he 5 was. 6 Q: Someone introduced you to Mr. Jewel 7 on the beach in May of 1995, is that? 8 A: I wasn't introduced to him. I asked 9 who he was and they told me who he was. 10 Q: I see, thank you very much. If I 11 might just pause for a moment, Ms. George, and we should 12 make an exhibit of that -- of that video that we 13 displayed please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-134. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-134. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-134: Excerpt from Maintenance Shed 18 DVD 9-07-95 O:56:06 to 0:56:09 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 21 Q: For the record the excerpt of the 22 video that we showed from the maintenance shed is dated 23 September the 7th, 1995 at 00:56 and following seconds. 24 Ms. George, I believe you told us 25 yesterday that Russ Jewel was from Muncey, is that
711 correct? 2 A: I'm pretty sure he's from Muncey. 3 Q: Do you know if he was born and grew 4 up in Muncey or? 5 A: I have no idea. 6 Q: You have no idea. We -- we -- there 7 are documents that -- that have been disclosed by the 8 Commission for the various parties. One (1) of them 9 indicates that Mr. Jewel holds a Michigan driver's 10 license. 11 Do you know whether he would -- whether he 12 had a Michigan driver's license or an Ontario driver's 13 license at all? 14 A: I -- I think he had an Ontario 15 driver's license. But I can't be positive. 16 Q: You're not sure? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And the -- the documents also 19 indicate that Mr. Jewel may have at one (1) time been a 20 US Marine. Did he ever tell you anything about that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: He never mentioned that to you? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you know when -- I believe you 25 said you first met Jewel -- Mr. Jewel, Russ Jewel in May
721 of 1995, is that correct? 2 A: I -- I seen him in May of '95 but I 3 was not officially introduced to him. 4 Q: At that time? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: When did you first get to know Mr. 7 Jewel? 8 A: I would say after we went up on the 9 built-up area. 10 Q: It was after -- 11 A: July 29, '95. 12 Q: Was Mr. Jewel at the event when -- 13 you people took over the built-up area? 14 A: I'm not sure. 15 Q: I should tell you that Wesley -- 16 Marlin Simon when he was here, told us that there were a 17 number of people from other First Nations who -- who were 18 present at a discussion that was held prior to the 19 takeover of the built-up area. 20 And Mr. Wesley George, when he was here on 21 December the 1st, told the Commissioner that he thought 22 Russ and Les Jewel were probably at that discussion that 23 led to the takeover of the barracks area. 24 Does that refresh your memory at all? 25 A: At -- well, where would this
731 discussion have been taken place? 2 Q: If my memory serves me correct and 3 I'm not sure it does, I believe the discussion was down 4 at the beach. 5 A: Before I went on the base? 6 Q: Before you went on the tape -- on the 7 built-up area, that's right. This was some time prior to 8 July 29 of 1995. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Mr. Simon told us that there was a 11 discussion about taking over the barracks or the built-up 12 area. And that there were a number of people there from 13 other First Nations. 14 And Mr. Wesley George, when he was here, 15 told us that he -- he thought that Mr. Les Jewel and Mr. 16 Russ Jewel were probably at that discussion. 17 A: On the beach? 18 Q: I believe it was on the beach, but I 19 can't be certain of that. I -- I -- the question is, do 20 you recall whether or not Mr. Jewel, Russ Jewel or Les 21 Jewel, were present at the event or the day that you took 22 over the built-up area? 23 A: I'm pretty sure that Les -- Les -- 24 Q: Les? 25 A: -- was there --
741 Q: Was there. 2 A: -- but I'm not certain if Russell was 3 there. 4 Q: Thank you, Ms. George, that's -- we 5 anticipate, Ms. George, that there will be evidence from 6 a Constable McGrath (phonetic) of the OPP will say that 7 on September the 6th, 1995, Russell Jewel's car was 8 stopped -- or stopped at the -- one (1) of the 9 checkpoints that the -- checkpoint where Constable 10 McGrath was working. 11 And that while -- and that she saw a 12 number of live shotgun shells -- I'm sorry he, it's 13 Constable McGrath -- is that he saw a number of live 14 shotgun shells on the console over the transmission of 15 Mr. Jewel's car. 16 Did you -- I take it you rode in Russ 17 Jewel's car on several occasions in the period of 18 September 4th, 5th, and 6th? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Did you ever see any live shotgun 21 shells or spent shells in the car? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: You did not? 24 A: I did not, no. 25 Q: Ms. George, can you tell the
751 Commissioner, please, if you're still in touch with Mr. 2 Russ Jewel? 3 A: No I'm not in touch Mr. Russ Jewel. 4 Q: When did you last hear from him as 5 far as you can recall? 6 A: The day he left. 7 Q: The day he left the Stoney Point 8 area? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And do you know -- 11 A: Along with his brother Les. 12 Q: He and his brother left together? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And do you know when -- 15 A: And Les' family. 16 Q: And Les' family? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Les had other family here did he as 19 well as Russ? 20 A: Yes, he did. 21 Q: And was that family, children, or? 22 A: He had a wife named Donna, two (2) 23 daughters, a teenager named Arletta (phonetic) and a 24 younger one named Lydia. 25 Q: Lydia. And can you tell us please,
761 as best as you can recall, when the -- Mr. Les Jewel and 2 his family and Mr. Russ Jewel left the area? 3 A: I think possibly it was in the first 4 week of January, 1996. 5 Q: Of '96? 6 A: To my best recollection. 7 Q: And you said I believe that you'd 8 never seen either Les or Russ Jewel since that time? 9 A: I never. But my two (2) daughters 10 told me that they seen Russ in a dark coloured van. This 11 was one (1) day in the summer. I don't know which year. 12 It was after September '95 though. My two (2) daughters 13 said they seen him in a van. Possibly he was on his way 14 to the beach. 15 Q: The beach near the Stoney Point area? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you help the Commissioner, at 18 all, put a time frame on that. Would -- 19 A: It would have -- it would be after 20 1998. 21 Q: After 1998? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- but not in the last three (3) 24 or four (4) years, for example? 25 A: No. No.
771 Q: So it would be roughly be in the '98 2 to 2000 era? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you have any idea, at all, where 5 Mr. Russ Jewel lives now? 6 A: I -- I recall Ben Pouget mentioning 7 to me that he might be living in Roseville, (phonetic) 8 Michigan. 9 Q: In Roseville, Michigan? And do you 10 know how long ago Mr. Pouget indicated that to you 11 approximately? 12 A: Within the last three (3) months. 13 Q: Within the last three (3) months. Do 14 you know whether Russ Jewel is commonly known by any 15 other name? Does he have any nickname or -- or alias 16 that he sometime uses? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't. Do you have any 19 information at all, Ms. George, as to where Mr. Les Jewel 20 is living now? 21 A: Not really, no. 22 Q: No one has ever -- 23 A: Other -- other than Munsey, where 24 he's from. 25 Q: You believe that Mr. Les Jewel is
781 also from Munsey eh? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And had -- I take it that on the 4 occasion when you mentioned that your daughter saw Russ 5 Jewel they -- did they indicate whether Les was with him 6 or not? 7 A: No. 8 Q: They didn't, no. 9 A: No. 10 Q: So you haven't heard anything of or 11 from Les Jewel since 1996, is that correct? 12 A: Yes, that is correct. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And do you know whether Les 14 Jewel has any alias or nickname that he sometimes goes 15 by? 16 A: No. I -- I think his correct name is 17 Leslie. But I can't be positive. 18 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Do you 19 remember whether the car that Russ Jewel was driving in 20 September of 1995, do you recall whether it had Ontario 21 license plates or Michigan license plates? 22 A: Yes. It -- it does. As a matter of 23 fact it's still in the junkyard on Aazhoodena with the 24 same plates on it, the last time I looked he left his 25 vehicle behind.
791 Q: And they were Ontario plates? 2 A: I'm sure they were. I'm sure they 3 are. 4 Q: And you mentioned that that car is 5 still to be found at a junkyard. Could you just tell the 6 Commission where that junkyard is please? 7 A: It's right on Aazhoodena. I believe 8 the license plate is 9-1-4-P-T-K. 9 Q: That's at the Military base is it? 10 A: Yes, by the green buildings. 11 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Do you -- I 12 have one (1) more question then about Mr. Jewel. 13 Do you know of any friends or family of -- 14 of Mr. Russ Jewel or Mr. Les Jewel, that might be able to 15 find the -- help the Commission locate Mr. Jewel, or 16 either of them, in order that they might be able to give 17 evidence at this Inquiry? 18 A: Russ Jewel himself, has two (2) 19 daughters and a son. I was introduced to them, I would 20 say back, after September 1995. And he has a younger -- 21 a young son with the same name, Russel Jewel. 22 Q: Same name. 23 A: Yes. And I think his one (1) 24 daughter's name is Bernadette or it could possibly be his 25 wife. I think it's his wife and I think his daughter's
801 name is Odette. (phonetic) Odette -- 2 Q: Odette? 3 A: -- I think. Yeah. 4 Q: And do you -- would Bernadette's last 5 name be Jewel, do you know that? 6 A: I think maybe so. 7 Q: And what about his children, Odette, 8 you mentioned, would her last name be Jewel, as far as 9 you know? 10 A: As far as I know, yeah. 11 Q: And do you remember the other 12 daughter's name? 13 A: Not right off hand. 14 Q: Or the -- the name of his son? 15 A: Russell. 16 Q: Also, yes, that's right, you said 17 that, Russell Jewel. 18 Now, switching to the incident that you 19 referred to yesterday about the "OPP Who" car, when it 20 got stuck down in the -- in the sand at the beach? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Excuse me a moment, Ms. George, we 25 have to key some photographs up again.
811 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: While we're doing that, I can tell -- 4 tell you, Ms. George and -- that we're going to show some 5 photographs that were taken by a Mr. Ronald Taylor, who 6 was a camper at Provincial -- at the Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park from the 31st of August, 1995 to the 4th of 8 September, 1995. 9 And Mr. Taylor took some photographs of -- 10 of the OPP car when it was stuck in the sand down there. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And he gave a statement to the SIU 13 investigators on the 26th of January, 1996, and the doc - 14 - for the benefit of the record, the document number of 15 the photos is 1003031, and the document number of the SIU 16 statement is 1002327. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Thank you. Now, Ms. George, you can 21 see that photograph, and I'm going to read from the -- 22 from the statement that Mr. Taylor gave to the SIU. And 23 he refers to the photographs by number. And with any 24 luck, my assistants here will be able to change the 25 photograph on the screen from one (1) photograph to the
821 other, as Mr. Taylor refers to them in -- in sequence. 2 Mr. Taylor says -- yes, I mean you see 3 that picture there of the -- of -- first of all does that 4 look like the "OPP Who" Car to you, in the photograph? 5 A: Yes, it does. 6 Q: And does that look to you like the 7 location where it got stuck on the day that you -- that 8 you were involved with that incident? 9 A: No. 10 Q: It doesn't look like it's stuck 11 there? 12 A: No, and I -- it's not the same 13 location. Or the same exact spot. 14 Q: Mr. Taylor indicates that the -- he - 15 - Mr. Taylor says: 16 "Photograph number 6," -- 17 Which is this photograph: 18 -- "indicates the sign in the 19 foreground, no travel beyond this 20 point." 21 You can see that sign? 22 "You can also, in the foreground, see 23 the concrete bunker or barriers that 24 were put in place recently. The old 25 post right behind and far to the
831 centre of the picture, the other 2 concrete barrier on the other side of 3 the access road, just beyond those is a 4 vehicle that you can see by the shape 5 of it, it's an older make of vehicle in 6 which wooden fins have been put down on 7 the -- the background, or on the --" 8 excuse me," wooden fins on the back -- 9 the back of the car. 10 If you were to look at the words on 11 the side of it, they are saying "OPP 12 Who" on this. This vehicle was most 13 regularly driven by one (1) person, 14 later identified to me as Dudley 15 George. And they would frequently sit 16 at that location, and basically defying 17 any campers to come into their area, 18 and if so, they would take exception to 19 that, and in no uncertain terms tell 20 them, we need your people to leave. 21 Photograph Number 7..." 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Ms. Newell.
841 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 3 Q: "Photograph number 7, shows one (1) 4 of those situations in which the person 5 in the green shorts, who was identified 6 to me as Dudley George, driving the 7 vehicle at that time, chases some 8 campers away from the area, and came 9 out into the access road region, where 10 he fish-tailed around and became stuck 11 in the sand there. And then the 12 campers just on the other side, were 13 just there at the time, he started 14 taunting them, saying, Well, what the 15 'F' are you looking at. At that --" 16 Now, first of all, Ms. George, if I may 17 stop the -- reading from the statement. Do you recall -- 18 I mean you said yesterday I believe, that there were a 19 number of campers who were in -- at some distance 20 observing this incident. 21 And do you recall Mr. Dudley George asking 22 them what the 'F' they were looking at? 23 A: He wasn't talking to no campers when 24 I was there. 25 Q: He wasn't talking to any campers?
851 A: No, he was just -- he was in the face 2 of the police officer. 3 Q: I see. The statement goes on: 4 "At that point in time the person, 5 Gilmore..." 6 And I should interject to explain that it 7 later on appears in the statement that what Mr. Taylor 8 means by "The person Gilmore" is the person who was 9 wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs hockey shirt, with the name 10 Gilmore, on the back, there he is. 11 So it wasn't his name but the name of the 12 hockey player on the shirt. 13 "At that point in time, the person 14 Gilmore who came out was in the car at 15 the time got out of the vehicle. He 16 was staggering quite a bit and 17 displayed a beer bottle at that time. 18 The OPP Officers who came down to see 19 if there was any assistance they could 20 require, had been on surveillance 21 within the Park. Dudley George told 22 them to get the 'F' away from the 23 cars." 24 Now, before I move on, do you know who the 25 person with the Gilmore shirt on is?
861 A: No, I can't. But if I could see his 2 face I might be able to -- 3 Q: I realize you can't see his face. I 4 just wondered if you happened to, since you were there 5 that day, if you remembered an individual that might have 6 been wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs hockey jersey with 7 that number and name on the back? 8 A: Not to be specific. 9 Q: Not to be sure. 10 A: Had you asked me two (2) or one (1) 11 year later I might be able to tell you -- would have told 12 you -- 13 Q: I'm sorry, Ms. George -- 14 A: Would have been able to tell you. 15 Q: I realize it's a very long time. We 16 all realize it's very difficult for any of the witnesses 17 to recall things. 18 Photograph number 8 -- which I understand 19 is the one we just saw, 20 "Is a continuation of the same scenario 21 taken at a distance further away in 22 which you can see Dudley George still 23 gesturing with the officers at that 24 point in time. The camper's sitting on 25 the concrete bunkers watching this
871 action take place. 2 And just continually on a loud tirade 3 at that point. 4 Photograph number 9 is still a 5 continuation of the same scenario -- 6 continuation of the same scenario. You 7 can see here the car is firmly stuck in 8 the sand --" 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "-- Dudley George, now that he sees 11 reinforcements coming in the 12 background, he sees people coming 13 forward on one (1) -- two (2) on an 14 all-terrain vehicle telling the 15 officers to, Get the 'F' out of the way 16 and to keep also -- they indicated keep 17 those people away from our land. 18 I should indicate, back there, that he 19 also indicated that he did have a gun 20 and would start to shoot these people 21 if they did not stay off there land -- 22 our land. The officers in photograph 23 number 9 then backed away back to their 24 vehicle which was on the access road." 25 Now, the question I have, Ms. George, do
881 you recall Dudley George telling the police that he had a 2 gun and would start to shoot people if they didn't stay 3 off their land? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: Do you recall the ATVs being present? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: You don't recall that either? In 8 this photograph, Ms. George, is that you in the 9 foreground there? Can you tell? 10 A: Which one? 11 Q: The female person in the white t- 12 shirt with the long hair? 13 A: One (1), two (2), three (3), four 14 (4). 15 Q: Well, do you recognize any of those 16 individuals as yourself, first of all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Can we go to the next photograph then 19 please? Do you recognize that person indicated by the 20 arrow? 21 A: By the arrow? 22 Q: Yes, if you could wiggle the -- 23 A: Oh, what arrow? Oh, no. It's hard 24 to make out. 25 Q: For the record, this is photo number
891 12 but Ms. George is not able to identify it. Do you 2 remember the scene that is depicted in that photograph? 3 A: In this photograph you could see the 4 fence more as to oppose when it was parked a ways over. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And as to -- 7 Q: We're going to look at one (1) more 8 photograph which I believe is number 16. And the 9 question I have -- do you recognize the vehicle with the 10 trunk raised in that photograph? 11 A: I think it looks like a Nova. 12 Q: Are you -- do you know if that's the 13 vehicle belonging to Mr. Russ Jewel? 14 A: No it isn't. 15 Q: It is not. It is another vehicle? 16 A: I think that's my brother's car. 17 Q: Your brother? 18 A: But then again if that picture was a 19 little clearer I -- I yes -- I think it's my brother's 20 car. 21 Q: What about that car that again the 22 arrow is pointing at? Do you recognize that car? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: What about the one in the middle? 25 A: Ah no, I don't.
901 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. We should 2 mark those photographs as an exhibit and the statement 3 together, please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-135. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-135: Document 1003031 Photographs 7 Taken by Ronald Taylor Aug 31/95 8 and Document 1002327 Jan 26/96 9 Statement from Ronald Taylor to SIU 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 12 Q: Just for the record I'm going to 13 indicate again that the photographs we were looking at 14 are Document Number 100-3031 and that the statement of 15 Mr. Taylor is 100-2327. Now, Ms. George, I'm going to 16 take you to a statement of another individual, a Mr. Al 17 Gretch (phonetic). 18 And for the record this is Document Number 19 1004489 and it's page 117 of that document. Now Mr. 20 Gretch is an individual who makes a statement to the OPP 21 in June of 1997, describing an incident that occurred 22 with him and his family down on the beach, in this area. 23 And he -- the incident that he describes 24 involves Dudley George. And a -- and a female individual 25 who was accompanying Mr. George. And the question I
911 wanted to ask you -- I want to read you his description 2 of this -- these events and then ask you if you were the 3 individual, the female person who was with Dudley. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY GEORGE: Mr. Scullion 5 has got an observation to make. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's an observation 7 and an objection to just the process. My Friend is 8 indicating he's going to read in the entire statement and 9 then afterwards ask Ms. George if that was in fact her 10 after all the statement is put in. 11 Perhaps there's dates, times, locations 12 that can be put to Ms. George to see if she was there at 13 the time, before we have an entire statement read into 14 the record. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That might 16 be a better way to do it. 17 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Mr. Scullion. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 20 Q: The date is September the 3rd and the 21 place is the beach at the -- the Port Franks beach and 22 then onto the Military beach. Do you recall -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: September 24 3rd of which -- I'm sorry, September 3rd of which year? 25 MR. IAN MCGILP: September 3rd of 1995.
921 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 3 Q: And there was an -- an incident 4 involving the OPP car and Dudley George down on the Port 5 Franks beach, that -- that -- where the individuals 6 involved started out, on the Port Franks beach and then 7 went over to the beach below the Army Camp or the former 8 Army Camp. 9 Do you recall whether you were down on the 10 beach -- 11 A: Way over -- 12 Q: -- with Dudley George. 13 A: -- way over on the northwest -- no, 14 northeast corner? 15 Q: I understand that Mr. Dudley George 16 would have been on the beach, on the Army Camp beach. 17 You understand what I mean by that? Not on the Port 18 Franks beach, this individual, Mr. Gretch was on the Port 19 Franks beach, and proceeding onto the beach that was 20 north of the Army Camp, or the Ar -- the beach at the 21 Army Camp. 22 Do you recall if you were with Dudley 23 George on September the 3rd of 1995, which would be the 24 day before the takeover of the Park. Do you recall if 25 you were on the beach with Mr. George, in the "OPP Who"
931 car, at the beach below the Army Camp? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: Do you think it might refresh your 4 memory if I described the events that Mr. Gretch 5 describes, do you think that might refresh your memory? 6 A: It might. 7 MR. IAN MCGILP: You'll be glad to know, 8 Mr. Scullion, that I don't intend to read the whole 9 statement, just the pertinent part of it. It's page -- 10 the first page. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 13 Q: And he says "I went" -- Mr. Gretch 14 says: 15 "I went to Port Franks on the Labour 16 Day weekend with my wife, Lonnie --" 17 I think: 18 "-- we have a cottage at Port Franks, 19 it is actually my mother's cottage. 20 On Sunday, September the 3rd, 1995, 21 we went to the Port Franks public 22 beach, and made our way to the beach 23 area that separates the Army Barracks 24 from the Port Franks public beach. 25 We were stopped by a black and white
941 Ford vehicle that had "OPP Who" painted 2 on the vehicle. It also had the name 3 Dudley on the vehicle, and on the trunk 4 lid it had quote, "Don't laugh, your 5 daughters could be inside." There were 6 two (2) people in the vehicle, a guy 7 who introduced himself as Dudley and a 8 girl. He told us we were on the wrong 9 side of the fence, and asked what we 10 were doing there. We told him we were 11 riding to the Reserve to see if my 12 wife's sister, Brenda, wanted a ride 13 home to St. Thomas. Brenda was staying 14 at the Army Barracks with the Natives. 15 He said, oh, you're Brenda's sister. 16 He didn't give us a problem, in fact, 17 he gave us a beer from the trunk of the 18 car. I noticed a high powered rifle 19 hanging in the back window of the car." 20 Now, Mr. Gretch goes on to describe how 21 Mr. Dudley George assi -- invited -- assisted them in 22 getting up to the barracks, and the sister it turned out, 23 did not want to go back to St. Thomas, and nothing of 24 significance happened. 25 The question I have to ask you though,
951 does that assist your recollection at all, that you were 2 down at the beach with Dudley in the OPP car on September 3 the 3rd, when an individual and his wife came along and 4 asked -- or -- or indicated that they were seeking to 5 drive up to the built-up area to see if the wife's sister 6 wanted a ride back to St. Thomas, does that -- 7 A: Could you kindly read that -- 8 Q: I'm sorry, I've talked too much -- 9 A: -- one (1) more time. 10 Q: -- and too long. The -- Mr. Gretch 11 describes an incident where a man and his wife came to 12 the beach -- 13 A: No, I asked you if you could read 14 that statement -- 15 Q: Read the statement? 16 A: -- one (1) more time, please? 17 Q: The part I read? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: He says: 20 "I went to Port Franks on the Labour 21 Day weekend with my wife, Lonnie, we 22 have a cottage at Port Franks, it is 23 actually my mother's cottage. 24 On the Sunday, September the 3rd, 25 '95, we went to the Port Franks public
961 beach and made our way to the beach 2 area that separates the Army Barracks 3 from the Port Franks public beach. We 4 were stopped by a black and white Ford 5 vehicle, that had "OPP Who" painted on 6 the vehicle. It also had the name 7 Dudley on the vehicle, and on the trunk 8 lid it had, "Don't laugh your daughters 9 could be inside." 10 There were two (2) people in the 11 vehicle, a guy who introduced himself 12 as Dudley, and a girl. He told us we 13 were on the wrong side of the fence and 14 asked what we were doing there. We 15 told him we were riding to the Reserve 16 to see if my wife's sister, Brenda, 17 wanted a ride home to St. Thomas. 18 Brenda was staying at the Army Barracks 19 with the Natives. 20 He said, oh, you're Brenda's sister. 21 He didn't give us a problem, in fact, 22 he gave us a beer from the trunk of the 23 car. I noticed a high powered rifle 24 hanging in the back window of the car." 25 Now, again, Ms. George, if you heard it
971 more clearly that time, the question I have is, do you 2 recall being on the beach with Dudley in the "OPP Who" 3 car on September the 3rd of 1995, when a man and his wife 4 approached Dudley and -- Dudley George in the car and 5 indicated that they were attem -- they were driving up to 6 the built-up area to see whether the wife's sister, 7 Brenda, wanted a ride with them back to -- 8 A: The wife's sister, Brenda, 9 Q: Apparently. 10 A: I don't know who you're talking 11 about. 12 Q: Do you recall a man and his wife 13 coming to the beach where you -- where Dudley George -- 14 were you with Dudley George -- do you re -- 15 A: Did they -- did this man and woman 16 come from the Port Franks beach. 17 Q: They came from the Port Franks beach 18 to the Army Camp beach -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- at which time Mr. Dudley George 21 said, what are you doing here? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And they said, we're going up to the 24 barracks to see if my wife's sister wants a ride? 25 A: Why would they be going up to the
981 Barracks if they are visitors coming to a Port Franks 2 cottage? I don't understand. 3 Q: I'm not sure that I understand 4 either, Ms. George. But the question I have for you, do 5 you remember anything at all about this incident? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Do you ever remember seeing a rifle 8 in the back of the "OPP Who" car? 9 A: I never seen no rifle. When I jumped 10 in that driver's seat, when they pushed me out from the 11 "OPP Who" car, when it was stuck at the time. 12 Q: Were there -- was there any other 13 occasion that you ever saw a rifle in the "OPP Who" car 14 other than the time it got stuck? 15 A: No, I never seen -- do -- no. 16 Q: Thank you Ms. George. You told us 17 yesterday, and again this morning, about the incident 18 where you and Ms. Gina George went out to the -- to 19 Highway 21, to get an ambulance for Nick Cotrelle? 20 A: I went out with Gina once -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- and I'm not sure if she went out 23 there more than once. 24 Q: I believe her statement to the SIU 25 indicates that she went out there the first time and
991 asked for an ambulance, that the police officer called 2 the ambulance. That Gina George then went back inside 3 the gate to get Nick and at that time Judas George said 4 to her -- or said to her to take somebody with her when 5 she goes back out with Nick -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- to the ambulance. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So that Gina went out there twice but 10 you only went out with her the second time -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- is that your recollection? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yes? And you said on that occasion 15 that the police pointed guns at you and made you rai -- 16 or that one (1) officer, I think you said, pointed a gun 17 at you and asked you to raise your hands; is that 18 correct? 19 A: Yes, he did. 20 Q: Now, Ms. George, I anticipate that 21 when the police officers that were at -- on duty at that 22 checkpoint that night, when they come to testify, they 23 will say that they had heard gunfire over their radios or 24 reports of gunfire coming from the Park area; that there 25 was -- shortly after the gunfire there was a crowd of
1001 people gathered inside the fence at the intersection of 2 Army Camp Road and Highway 21 -- 3 A: Gathered at the fence at -- 4 Q: Inside the fence where -- where Army 5 Camp Road intersects with Highway 21? 6 A: Right at the corner but inside the 7 fence? 8 Q: Inside the fence? 9 A: Yes, I don't know. 10 Q: And that there were a number of 11 vehicles at that -- in that area with their headlights 12 that were illuminating the police officers out on the 13 checkpoint. That the police officers feared that they 14 might be fired upon and that for that reason they took 15 cover in the ditch on the south side of the road. 16 And that when the ambulance arrived they - 17 - they told the ambulance attendants to take cover in the 18 ditch on the south side of the road until they cleared 19 the area to make sure it was safe for them. 20 Now, in light of that -- in light of the 21 circumstances that existed, namely the shots, this was 22 just a few minutes or a short time after the shots had 23 been fired down at the Park, can you understand why the 24 police officers were fearful that they might be shot at 25 that night, and why they and the ambulance attendants
1011 took cover in the ditch? 2 A: Are you asking me for what someone 3 else thinks? 4 Q: No, I'm -- no, I was asking you if 5 you understand why they feared that they might be fired 6 on, and took cover? 7 A: No, I wouldn't understand why they 8 would say that. 9 Q: You couldn't understand why they 10 thought they might be fired upon? 11 A: No, I don't understand that. I don't 12 understand why they would say that. 13 Q: Can you understand why they thought 14 it was appropriate or necessary, when -- when your car 15 came out of the Camp and approached them at the 16 checkpoint, why they thought it was necessary to cover 17 that car and its occupants at gunpoint? 18 A: It wasn't my car. 19 Q: I understand that, Ms. George. But 20 you were in the car? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you understand why the 23 officers would want to ensure that the occupants of that 24 car did not have firearms or other weapons that they 25 intended to use against the police?
1021 A: No, I can't understand whatever it is 2 that they think. 3 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. One (1) of 4 the ambulance attendants who was there that night, or 5 pardon me, I'm sorry, it's a police officer named 6 Constable Hall, and his statement number is 1002140. 7 And Constable Hall indicates that the 8 female passenger in the car that night, and that would be 9 you, made various derogatory remarks to the police, 10 including the following, quote: 11 "If you're staying at the Pinery, we'll 12 find you." 13 Do you remember saying anything like that 14 to the police that night? 15 A: I'm absolutely certain that I did not 16 say that. 17 Q: That you did not. Thank you, Ms. 18 George. 19 Now, I just have a few more questions. 20 You told the Commission yesterday about making Molotov 21 cocktails, do you recall that? Or gas bombs? 22 A: Yeah, I recall. 23 Q: Could you tell us when you made 24 those, in relation to the other events that night. Do 25 you remember when it was that you did that?
1031 A: It was after Dudley was shot. 2 Q: It was after Dudley had been shot. 3 And do you remember how many you made? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No. Was Russ Jewel there when you 6 were making the cocktails? 7 A: I can't recall. The only person I 8 can recall is Dave. 9 Q: Was David. And when David was here, 10 I believe he told us that he made about ten (10) of them 11 that night, does that -- at the maintenance shed. Does 12 that accord with your recollection? 13 A: No, I wasn't counting. 14 Q: I take it that David George made the 15 cocktails that he made at the same time that you were 16 making them, or was that at a different time? 17 A: It's possible. 18 Q: Do you recall whether he was making 19 cocktails at the same time you were, or was that -- or 20 perhaps he made them earlier or later than that? Do you 21 recall? 22 A: I think we were doing it together. 23 Q: You were doing it together. When you 24 were making the cocktails that night, Ms. George, what -- 25 what did you have in mind to do with them?
1041 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: My intentions? 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: More likely to use them. 6 Q: To use them how? 7 A: Whatever way I see fit. 8 Q: And -- but I mean, if you -- I mean, 9 you weren't just making Molotov cocktails or gas bombs in 10 an idle moment for something to do? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You must have been making them with 13 something in your mind that you were going to -- or you 14 might use them for? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Can you recall what was in your mind 17 that night when you were making them? 18 A: The best to my recollection, it was 19 to burn the Park store down. 20 Q: And that was an idea that had 21 formulated in your mind before you -- or while you were 22 making the -- the gas bomb, was it? 23 A: I -- I don't know. 24 Q: Do you recall whether David George 25 and you spoke about what you were going to do with the
1051 cocktails when you were making them together? 2 A: No, I don't recall. 3 Q: Was there any conversation about 4 burning down the store at that point? 5 A: When we were making them? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? 9 A: Not that I can recall. 10 Q: Did you also participate that night 11 in burning -- you told us yesterday that you threw a gas 12 bomb at the store when it was burning -- when -- to set 13 it on fire; is that correct? 14 A: That I threw a gas bomb to -- 15 Q: Perhaps I have it wrong. I thought 16 you told us yesterday that after you made the gas bombs 17 you participated in the burning down of the store and 18 threw one (1) or more gas bombs into the store; is that - 19 - do you remember saying that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you -- I wanted to ask you, 22 did you also participate in burning down the kiosk that 23 night? 24 A: No. 25 Q: That you were not involved in that?
1061 A: No. 2 Q: And do you recall whether gas bombs 3 or cocktails were used to burn the kiosk down? 4 A: No, I don't recall. 5 Q: You don't recall? Thank you. 6 Now, you told us yesterday about the 7 events of September the 7th, 1995 when a number of -- a 8 number of native people were back down into the Park and 9 that you saw some police officers up the road. 10 And that a number of people walked up East 11 Parkway Drive to the parking lot where the police were 12 located and where the vehicles that they had at the scene 13 were located; do you recall that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, I anticipate we're going to hear 16 evidence from more than one (1) police officer that as 17 the natives were walking up East Parkway Drive that day a 18 number of male native individuals dropped off from the 19 crowd and entered the bush on the south side of the road. 20 Do you recall noticing whether there were 21 any male natives who left the crowd and entered the bush 22 on the south side of the road and approached the -- the 23 parking lot where the -- the police vehicles were through 24 the bush rather than along the road? 25 A: No, I don't recall.
1071 Q: You can't recall that at all? 2 A: No, they would be behind me because I 3 was right in the front. 4 Q: Because you were right in the front? 5 And I -- we've heard evidence that there was some damage 6 done and I suspect we're going to hear more evidence that 7 there was a certain amount of damage done to the police 8 cruisers as they were leaving the parking lot that day. 9 Stacey George, for example, told us that 10 he -- he kicked a police car as it left. Did you see any 11 of that going on? 12 A: See Stacey kick a car, no. 13 Q: Did you see a number of individuals-- 14 A: Not that I can recall. 15 Q: Not that you can recall? Did you see 16 a number of individuals using sticks or -- or clubs of 17 some kind to batter an ambulance that was parked there? 18 A: Yeah, I seen that on videotape or 19 some news. 20 Q: And -- and do you recall being 21 present when that was going on, when the ambulance was 22 being -- 23 A: Somewhat. I think so. 24 Q: You think so. Ms. George, I take it 25 your children were with you that day?
1081 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Were you concerned about their safety 3 on that occasion? 4 A: My -- their safety? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: As in -- as in what may I ask? 7 Q: Well, I guess, the question I -- I'll 8 amplify my question, the situation was that a group of 9 protestors are marching down east -- and this is the 10 morning after Dudley George was shot, and a group of 11 native protestors are walking down the road to the police 12 -- the place where the police are located. 13 And I'm wondering whether or not you 14 thought or were concerned about the safety of your -- 15 bringing your children on a march like that? 16 A: No. No. No, I wasn't because there 17 were video cameras there and there were a lot of other 18 people with us. 19 Q: And the police left on that occasion; 20 didn't they? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Ms. George, on November 22nd, Mr. 23 Stacey George gave evidence to the Commission and he 24 tells us that -- he told us that later on, on September 25 7th he returned to the Park, that is after the walk to
1091 the -- where the police vehicles were later on that day. 2 He returned to the Park and then he made - 3 - he met eight (8) to ten (10) strangers standing by the 4 gate near the turnstile in the Park, that they were all 5 individuals he'd never seen before. That he asked them 6 what they were doing and who they were and they said they 7 were from Oneida. 8 That they then started walking down East 9 Parkway Drive towards the same location where the police 10 had been, but were no longer, and that he, Stacey, 11 followed them down the road. And that when they got 12 there, those individuals stole a number of vehicles from 13 the lot that had been -- the parking lot that was vacated 14 by the police. 15 And he says that he got a ride in the 16 ambulance back to the Park with them. 17 Were you present in the Park at all, does 18 that -- were you present in the Park at all at that time? 19 A: Yeah, on this -- 20 Q: On -- on this -- on this occasion? 21 A: On the 7th, is it? 22 Q: The 7th, yes, 7th. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: After the walk where the protestors 25 went down to the parking lot, this happened later that
1101 day sometime? 2 A: Yeah, I probably was more likely -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- could have been. 5 Q: Do you remember seeing eight (8) to 6 ten (10) individuals that were -- that were strangers to 7 you at the Park that morning? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Do you recall seeing a group of 10 individuals down by the turnstile at some point during 11 that day? 12 A: There was a lot of people down there 13 the next day, yes. 14 Q: And do you recall the incident when a 15 number of individuals went down to the police parking lot 16 and took the vehicles that were left there, do you recall 17 that happening? 18 A: No, I didn't even know. 19 Q: You didn't know about that at all? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No one ever told you that those 22 vehicles had been taken? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1111 A: No, nobody never ever told me that 2 anything was taken. 3 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now, when Ms. 4 Vella was asking you some questions this morning, she 5 took you to the minutes of a meeting of the Stoney Point 6 Negotiating Committee, where you and various other people 7 were present. 8 Do you recall those minutes? 9 A: If you give me a date I might be able 10 to. 11 Q: It was -- I think the meeting was on 12 January the 24th of '96. This was the meeting Ms. Vella 13 asked you, there were various individuals there, one (1) 14 of whom was named Yellow Fox? 15 A: This one (1)? Yes, yes. 16 Q: And you told us that Yellow Fox was 17 in fact Robert Isaac? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: You remember that meeting, does that 20 help you? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: Now, in -- in those minutes, Mr. 23 Isaac or Yellow Fox, as was -- tells -- tells the -- 24 tells the group assembled, that he could bring a thousand 25 (1,000) warriors here.
1121 Do you think he was serious about that, or 2 do you think he was kind of boasting a bit? 3 A: I can't offer you an opinion on what 4 someone else thinks. 5 Q: That's a fair answer, Ms. George. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Excuse me, Ms. George, we just have 10 one (1) more picture to show you, and you'll be glad to 11 know that's the last question I'll have for you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Ms. George, the picture, when it 16 comes up on the screen, there it is. The time stamp on 17 it is September the 7th of 1995, and it's -- and it's at 18 00:02:56 of that day. So that's very shortly after 19 midnight, just two (2) minutes after midnight or three 20 (3) minutes after midnight. 21 Do you recall whether you were in the 22 maintenance shed at approximately midnight on the -- on 23 September the 7th? 24 A: I can't be certain. 25 Q: You're not sure. Do you believe that
1131 you may have still been up at the barracks at two (2) 2 minutes after 12:00 that night? 3 A: Again, I can't be certain. 4 Q: You're not certain? 5 A: Would you please just watch the video 6 as Ms. Newell runs it for us? 7 8 (VIDEO PLAYING) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 11 Q: Now, the question I have, Ms. George, 12 is can you identify that individual? 13 A: No, I can't. 14 Q: The picture -- 15 A: No. I cannot. 16 Q: -- you cannot? 17 A: No. 18 Q: The picture is too unclear? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Does it look to you at all like it 21 might be Buck Doxtator? 22 A: It's possible. 23 Q: It's possible but you couldn't say? 24 A: I just said that, didn't I? 25 Q: Thank you, Ms. George, you've been
1141 very helpful. You've -- you've been very patient and 2 those are all my questions. Thank you. 3 A: You're welcome. 4 MR. IAN MCGILP: Pardon me, I do need to 5 mark that video as an exhibit -- the one we just looked 6 at. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that on 8 another disc or is it -- 9 MR. IAN MCGILP: It's... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. IAN MCGILP: So we only -- apparently 14 it's on the same disc as the video we marked earlier, but 15 I will indicate for the record, the time frame is two (2) 16 minutes and fifty-six (56) seconds after midnight on the 17 7th of September, 1995 to three-o (30) -- three (3) 18 minutes and six (6) seconds is the lapse of the video. 19 Thank you very much again, Ms. George. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 I think Ms. McAleer is up now. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 24 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. 25 A: Good morning.
1151 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 2 one (1) of the lawyers who's acting for the former 3 Premier Mike Harris. I have three (3) areas that I want 4 to briefly touch on with you this morning. 5 The first relates to your evidence 6 regarding having seen Les Kobayashi hand over keys to 7 your brother Roderick Judas George on September 4th, 8 1995. 9 Where were you when you saw that happen? 10 A: I was standing approximately -- I'm 11 not very good at yardage. 12 Q: Neither am I. 13 A: A -- a ways away. I wasn't standing 14 within arm's reach or anything like that. 15 Q: Okay. Could you -- were you close 16 enough that you could have heard what they were saying to 17 one another? 18 A: No, I wasn't -- not that close. 19 Q: And are you absolutely certain that 20 you saw Mr. Kobayashi hand over keys to your brother, 21 Roderick? 22 A: Yes, I'm absolutely certain. 23 Q: Okay. Were -- were they on a key 24 ring? 25 A: I couldn't tell you.
1161 Q: Okay. Do you know -- could you see 2 how many keys? 3 A: No. There were a lot -- I -- I 4 think. 5 Q: Okay. When -- when your brother 6 Roderick testified here he didn't mention anything about 7 being provided with keys from Mr. Kobayashi and -- and 8 that's why I want to ask you if you're absolutely certain 9 that you saw Mr. Kobayashi provide your brother Roderick 10 with keys. 11 A: Yes, I'm absolutely certain. 12 Q: Did you ever discuss that with your 13 brother, Roderick? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Now, were you provided with a key to 16 the maintenance shed? 17 A: No. 18 Q: How did you gain access to the 19 maintenance shed? 20 A: I believe Roderick opened up the 21 door. 22 Q: And did he then give you a key 23 afterwards? 24 A: No. 25 Q: So the door to the maintenance shed
1171 just stayed open after that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Did your brother, Roderick, 4 ever tell you that he had opened up the maintenance shed 5 with a key? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you see any signs at the 8 maintenance shed that somebody had broken into it? 9 A: Any what? 10 Q: Sign at the maintenance shed that 11 somebody would have broken into it? 12 A: Did I observe any sign -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- of anyone breaking into it? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: No. No, I didn't. 17 Q: Okay. Now you indicated that some 18 people were taking gas from the gas pump next to the 19 maintenance shed and you indicated that you were actually 20 not very happy with the fact that one (1) individual from 21 Kettle Point was taking gas from the Park and I presume 22 taking it back to Kettle Point. 23 Is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Did you also see people taking
1181 things out of the Park store? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you ever go into the Park store? 4 A: Yes. I went inside. 5 Q: Okay. And when you went inside, did 6 you see a number of appliances inside the Park store such 7 as refrigerators or freezers? 8 A: Pop coolers. 9 Q: Okay. Did you see anything else in 10 there? 11 A: There was a chart on flavours of ice 12 cream. 13 Q: Okay. Anything else? 14 A: There was a phone in there. I would 15 -- I would have to say I never seen anything of use to 16 anybody that would make anyone want to take it. 17 Q: Okay. And when was the first time 18 that you went into the Park store? 19 A: The first time I went into that Park 20 store -- 21 Q: During the course of the occupation? 22 A: -- was after when the incident with 23 Dudley had taken place. 24 Q: Okay. So you had not been in the 25 Park store before the evening of September 6th?
1191 A: To the best of my knowledge I was 2 not. 3 Q: Now the last area I want to ask you 4 about relates to the television that you mentioned that 5 you had in the maintenance shed. 6 Would you and perhaps some of the other 7 occupiers watch the news on that television in the 8 maintenance shed? 9 A: The news? No, it was not hooked up 10 to an antenna. 11 Q: Was -- was it hooked up in the 12 maintenance shed, the television? 13 A: I think I provided my children with 14 watching kid movies. 15 Q: I see. So it was only hooked up so 16 that you could watch something on a VCR? 17 A: I -- I think so. 18 Q: You don't remember watching 19 television on September 4th, 5th, or 6th? 20 A: I rarely watch television. I was 21 rarely watching television then. 22 Q: Okay. But I -- I'm asking you 23 whether you specifically remember watching it during 24 those three (3) days. 25 A: No, I don't.
1201 Q: Okay. And did you have a radio in 2 the maintenance shed? 3 A: On like right away? 4 Q: Yes. During those three (3) days. 5 September 4th, 5th, or 6th? 6 A: I probably moved one from Thetford if 7 I did. 8 Q: Do you remember listening to the news 9 on the radio on either of those three (3) days in the 10 maintenance shed? 11 A: I can't remember. 12 Q: Okay. Do you remember having any 13 discussions with any of the occupiers about the 14 possibility of a court injunction? 15 A: No. I never discussed anything of a 16 court injunction with anybody. 17 Q: Did you hear anybody else discussing 18 the possibility of a court injunction? 19 A: I heard court injunction mentioned 20 some place along the line but to be specific, no. 21 Q: Okay. Do you remember who mentioned 22 it? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you remember anything else about 25 the possibility of a court injunction?
1211 A: No. 2 Q: Did -- did the -- did anybody seem to 3 be concerned about the possibility of a court injunction? 4 A: I don't think anyone -- anyone was 5 too concerned. 6 Q: Okay. Thank you, Ms. George, those 7 are all my questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: 11 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 12 Trevor Hinnegan and I'm one of the lawyers representing 13 Marcel Beaubien who was the MPP in this area in 1995. I 14 have a very few questions for you. 15 First, yesterday you talked to Ms. Vella 16 about how your father Abraham related to you that your 17 Great-Grandfather Albert and Uncle Fletcher were buried 18 at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 19 And I believe you gave some specific 20 locations; correct? 21 A: That I gave specific locations? 22 Q: Yes. You had been told by your 23 father about where your Great-Grandfather Albert and your 24 Uncle Fletcher were buried. 25 A: He never pointed out the exact spot
1221 to me. 2 Q: But, in any event, he did tell you 3 that they were buried at the Provincial Park; correct? 4 A: Within those boundaries; yes. 5 Q: Okay. And when -- when would you 6 father have told you about that? 7 A: It was before I had any children. 8 Q: Okay. And I believe your eldest 9 child was born in 1990; is that correct? 10 A: My oldest child was born in 1978. 11 Q: Oh, pardon me. And given the fact 12 that you were told by your father that your -- your 13 direct ancestors were buried in the Provincial Park; did 14 that cause you any concern? 15 A: Pardon -- could you repeat that 16 please? 17 Q: Well, did you have any -- did you 18 have any concern about the fact that some of your direct 19 ancestors were buried at the Provincial Park? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: What were the nature of those 22 concerns? 23 A: That they should be left alone. 24 Q: That they should...? 25 A: And not to be disturbed.
1231 Q: Okay. But you didn't ever 2 communicate that concern to the Provincial Government at 3 any time prior to September 1995; did you? 4 A: The Provincial Government? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: No. 7 Q: Would you agree that had you 8 communicated with the Provincial Government about those 9 concerns that one of the options may have been for the -- 10 the Provincial Government to erect barriers or fences 11 around those sites? 12 A: I believe that they wouldn't do a 13 damn thing. 14 Q: Now, Ms. George, you also told Ms. 15 Vella that, for as long as you could remember, you've 16 always believed that the Provincial Park belonged to your 17 father and his people; correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: But you've never -- again, you've 20 never contacted the Provincial Government in this regard? 21 22 A: Again, I believe the Provincial 23 Government would not do a damn thing. 24 Q: But do you agree that you've never 25 made any communication to them or -- or contacted them
1241 directly in that regard? 2 A: No, I wouldn't because they probably 3 wouldn't listen to me anyways. 4 Q: No, but my question is not how the 5 Provincial Government might respond, my question is, had 6 -- had you made any contact with them about it? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: And prior to September of 1995, I 9 believe your testimony yesterday was that the nature of 10 the protests, prior to September of 1995 were directed 11 more so at the Federal Government, even though you may 12 have been -- there may have been posters, placards, et 13 cetera, that named the Stoney Point Reserve, in general? 14 But would it be fair to say that those 15 protests prior to September 1995 were directed more at 16 the Federal Government? 17 A: They were directed at all levels of 18 government, including the Department of National Defence. 19 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Scullion 21 or Mr. Ross? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I can say we are 23 considering using the computer but after watching Ms. 24 Newell have difficulty, it's just not going to happen. 25 And I'd like to also blame Mr. Millar for that, if that's
1251 okay. We don't have any questions for Mrs. George. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. Ms. Vella, do you have any re-examination? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have no re- 5 examination. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 7 think this would be a good time for us to take a lunch 8 break and -- is that right, you're leading your next 9 witness, Mr. Worme, do you think we should break now or 10 start? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: I think that's 12 probably appropriate, Mr. Commissioner, if we took the 13 lunch break now and, with My Friends' indulgence, start 14 back here at one o'clock. 15 We do have one (1) witness available this 16 afternoon -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we'd 18 like to get through them. We'd like to finish them in 19 total, if we can. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we'd 22 like to break by 3:30. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: And I think that that 24 could be accomplished assuming we come back at 1:30. And 25 again, depending upon the --
1261 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At one 2 o'clock you mean? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: At one o'clock, pardon 4 me. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It means a 6 shorter lunch hour, is everybody agreed to that, to try 7 and finish the witness? I don't hear any naysayers. So 8 let's adjourn now for lunch and reconvene at one o'clock. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 12 think you'll want to discharge this witness. 13 THE WITNESS: Am I done now? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 15 sorry, I didn't realize -- I'm sorry, and I rushed. 16 Thank you -- thank you very much for 17 coming and giving us your evidence, you're finished now 18 and you're free to leave. Thank you very much. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'd like to thank 20 Commission Counsel for listening to me. And I'd like 21 everybody to know that it is frustrating to have to 22 remember stuff ten (10) years after. It can be -- it can 23 make a person quite bitchy, including myself. And thank 24 you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you are
1271 thanking Commission Counsel for listening to you. I want 2 to assure you, we all listen to you. Thank you very 3 much. 4 5 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 8 adjourned until 1:00 p.m. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 12:05 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 1:00 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Wow. 16 Everybody's on time. Wow. 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good afternoon, 18 Mr. Commissioner. We have Mr. Harley George -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How are you, 20 sir? 21 MR. HARLEY GEORGE: Okay. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- is seated at 23 the front. 24 25 HARLEY IAN GEORGE, Sworn:
1281 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 2 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. I'm just 3 going to start by asking you a few questions about your - 4 - your family history and your personal background -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- if that's all right. What is your 7 date of birth? 8 A: November 20th, 1979. 9 Q: Okay. And what are your parents' 10 names? 11 A: Warren and Wendy -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- Kim and Mark. 14 Q: Okay. Could you tell us which of 15 those four (4) -- or, first of all, could you give the 16 last names of each of those individuals? 17 A: Warren and Wendy George. Kim and 18 Mark Root (phonetic). 19 Q: And which of those four (4) 20 individuals are your biological parents? 21 A: Warren George and Kim Root. 22 Q: Okay. So Wendy George is your 23 stepmother? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And Mark Root is your stepfather?
1291 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And who are your grandparents 3 on your father's side? 4 A: Dan and Melva George. 5 Q: And what community were they from? 6 A: Originally from Stoney Point, moved 7 to Kettle Point. 8 Q: And who are your grandparents on your 9 mother's side? 10 A: Shirley Martin and George Martin. 11 Q: And do you recall what community they 12 were from? 13 A: Not when they were young. 14 Q: That's fine. And do you have 15 siblings? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: What are their names? 18 A: William George, Nola George, and 19 Warren George Junior. 20 Q: Where did you grow up, Mr. George? 21 A: Kettle Point and Sarnia. 22 Q: Okay. Can you describe when you were 23 living in Sarnia and when you were living in Kettle 24 Point? 25 A: It was just on and off throughout
1301 fifteen (15) years or so. I was back and forth. 2 Q: You travelled back and forth between 3 the two (2) communities? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And where were you born? 6 A: In Sarnia, in one (1) of the Sarnia 7 hospitals. 8 Q: So, if I could take you back to 1995, 9 it appears from your date of birth that you were fifteen 10 (15) years of age in September of 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you recall what grade you had 13 finished at -- at school? 14 A: I think it might have been Grade 8. 15 Q: Grade 8. And where were you 16 attending school? 17 A: Woodside, I don't know the full name. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Here in Forest. 20 Q: Here in Forest? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Are you -- were you related to Dudley 23 George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: How are you related?
1311 A: He's my cousin, so I'm not sure 2 exactly. 3 Q: Could I ask you to speak up a little 4 bit, Mr. George. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you. And how well did you know 7 Dudley George? 8 A: Not really well but I -- I seen him 9 lots of times when I was young. I knew of him, I knew his 10 name and everything. 11 Q: Okay. I'm just going to move on to 12 an area of questioning around Stoney Point, if I may. 13 Can you tell us when you first learned 14 about the history of Stoney Point? 15 A: I -- I can't say for sure when the 16 date was that I first started learning about -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- Stoney Point. 19 Q: Can you say roughly when you -- when 20 you would have started learning about Stoney Point? 21 A: Well, that depends on what -- what 22 I've learned. Some things I learned early, and mostly 23 everything else I learned afterwards. 24 Q: Okay. When you say early, what do 25 you mean by early?
1321 A: Before the shooting. 2 Q: Okay. Years before the shooting, or 3 shortly before the shooting? 4 A: A year at the most. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall how you first 6 started learning about Stoney Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you tell us how that was? 9 A: Through my uncle, Glenn George? 10 Q: Okay. And when did you first go to 11 the Army Camp that is on the lands that were formally 12 known as Stoney Point? 13 A: I believe it was for my grandfather's 14 funeral on my dad's side. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Dan George, Senior. 17 Q: Okay. We understand from other 18 witnesses that that took place in 1990, is that -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- that sounds right to you? And did 21 you take part at all in the initial occupation of the 22 Army Camp, which we understand took place in May of 1993? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No. After that took place, which we 25 understood -- understand took place in May of 1993, can
1331 you recall when you first visited the Army Camp? 2 A: I can't recall the date, no. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. Can you recall the year? 4 A: It would of been that year, the year 5 of 1990, or -- 6 Q: Or -- 7 A: -- or '91. 8 Q: Okay, I'm -- I'm talking about, if we 9 could move to after the occupation of the Army Camp in 10 May of 1993 -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- when people -- when we understand 13 that families started moving on and living on the Army 14 Camp? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Did you visit -- prior to the summer 17 of 1995, did you visit the Army Camp lands? 18 A: Possibly a couple of times. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall when you would 20 have done that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. Would it have been before the 23 summer of 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you recall what season?
1341 A: Vaguely. I think it was fall time or 2 the beginning of the winter. 3 Q: Okay. And if you can recall, I 4 understand this was a long time ago, and you were very 5 young at the time. 6 Can you recall whether that would have 7 been the fall and/or winter of 1993, or the fall and/or 8 winter of 1994? 9 A: I would have to say '94, but I 10 couldn't be certain. 11 Q: Okay, so you're not absolute -- 12 you're not sure -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- of when you first -- okay. But 15 you did visit -- prior to the summer of 1995 you did 16 visit the Army Camp? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You indicated before, a few times? 19 A: Yeah, just -- 20 Q: Is that what you said? 21 A: -- no more than three (3) times. 22 Q: Okay. And what did you do when you 23 were visiting there? 24 A: I -- I had a dirt bike and I'd bring 25 it down there and rode it around.
1351 Q: Okay. And can you tell us why you 2 visited the Army Camp lands, after the occupation began? 3 A: I could tell you what I think now, 4 but it wouldn't have been the same as what I thought 5 then. 6 Q: Okay, if you -- if you can't recall 7 what you -- why you did it, then -- then you could just 8 indicate that? 9 A: No, I can't -- 10 Q: Thank you. 11 A: -- recall. 12 Q: During your visits prior to the 13 summer of 1995 to the Army Camp lands, did you have any 14 interactions with the Military personnel there? 15 A: Define interactions? 16 Q: Did you speak to any Military people? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Can you describe what happened when 19 you did speak to some? 20 A: It was one (1) of the times when I 21 was dirt biking down there, and they had told me that I 22 couldn't do that down there, and I was trespassing. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall where you 24 were on the Army Camp at that time? 25 A: Yes.
1361 Q: Where was that? 2 A: In a -- in a parking lot area by the 3 Inland Lakes. 4 Q: Okay. So the Military personnel told 5 you to leave the Army Camp? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And did you leave the Army Camp? 8 A: Not at that time. 9 Q: And how did the Military personnel 10 respond to your not leaving at their instruction? 11 A: They -- they just left after a while. 12 13 Q: Okay. And during those visits did 14 you ever see anyone with guns at the Army Camp? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And did you see or hear of people 17 hunting at the Army Camp? 18 A: No. I -- well, I could speculate. I 19 knew that people probably would have been but I never 20 seen or witnessed any of it. 21 Q: Okay. Well, we don't -- we're not 22 asking you to speculate. 23 A: Okay. No, I didn't see anybody. 24 Q: So, moving on to the summer of 1995, 25 we do understand from a number of other witnesses that on
1371 July 29th, 1995 a group of First Nations people moved 2 into the built-up area of the Army Camp. 3 So I'm going to move to that area of 4 questioning. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Immediately prior to that, during 7 that summer in July of 1995 can you recall where you were 8 living? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you recall if you were living with 11 your parents? 12 A: Yes, I couldn't tell you which one. 13 I could have either in Kettle Point or Sarnia. 14 Q: Okay. And during that summer, I'm 15 talking about after school let out, did you, at any 16 point, stay overnight at the Army Camp? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. How often did you do 19 that? 20 A: Maybe every other weekend. 21 Q: Okay. And where did you stay? 22 A: On the -- on the bus on the beach. 23 Q: Were there other people also staying 24 on the bus? 25 A: Yes.
1381 Q: How many other people would you say? 2 A: Maybe two (2) but it would alternate. 3 Like, it wouldn't be the same person all the time. Two 4 (2) or three (3) at one time. 5 Q: Were these also young people? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Was anyone actually living on the bus 8 full-time? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And during, I'm talking about immed - 11 - before July 29th, 1995 when people went into the 12 barracks, or any of your other visits, did you see any of 13 the people occupying the Camp interacting with the 14 Military? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you describe those interactions? 17 A: It would be when the range patrol 18 would be driving around. And be just a -- either a young 19 -- mostly young kids and myself included would be 20 throwing fruits and stuff at them. 21 Q: Were any words exchanged? 22 A: Probably. 23 Q: You can't recall for certain? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Can you tell me, Mr. George,
1391 who the bus you were staying in -- whose bus that was? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Who was that? 4 A: My father, Warren George. 5 Q: Warren George? He owned the bus? 6 A: Yeah, he owned the bus before it came 7 down to Camp. But once it was down there it was my 8 understanding that it was, kind of, like the community's 9 bus or no longer his. 10 Q: Do you have any knowledge of how the 11 bus came to be on the Camp? 12 A: No. I imagine they drove it there. 13 Q: Did your father give it to the people 14 living at the Army Camp? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. We are going to move now to 17 the actual occupation of the barracks area. 18 What, if anything, can you remember about 19 any planning that occurred prior to people moving into 20 the -- the built-up area of the Army Camp? 21 A: I can remember the -- being told the 22 route I was to take. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And when did you 24 first hear of people's intention to go into that area of 25 the Army Camp?
1401 A: That day that I went in there. 2 Q: The same day? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And where were you when you heard of 5 that? 6 A: On the beach. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: By the pass area. 9 Q: Okay. I'm just going to put up a map 10 of the Army Camp and -- and the beach area. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And if we could move it to the beach 13 area. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: One (1) moment, 18 Commissioner. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 21 Q: You'll also notice, Mr. George, that 22 you have a paper map of that image, which has been 23 identified or entered in these proceedings as Exhibit P- 24 40. 25 I'm going to ask you, there's a laser
1411 pointer on the desk in front of you, if you could 2 indicate on that map if it's actually in that area where 3 that meeting would have taken place? 4 A: Somewheres around there. 5 Q: Okay. For the record he is 6 indicating an area approximately one-third of the way 7 across the beach area to the east of Ipperwash Provincial 8 Park on the beach. 9 And if I could also ask you to mark that - 10 - mark that spot on the map in front of you with a pen 11 and put a Number 1 beside it and I would ask that that 12 map be entered as our next exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 136. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One thirty- 15 six (136) 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-136: Document 1002409 Page 13 Map 18 of Ipperwash Military Reserve 19 Marked by Witness Mr. Harley 20 George, Jan 20/05 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 23 Q: Thank you, Mr. -- Mr. George. Can 24 you tell us who was at that meeting? 25 A: No. I just know there was a large
1421 group of people there. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I -- I could tell you some of the 4 names, but not all of them. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Yes. Could you -- could 6 you tell -- could you tell us the names that you do 7 remember? 8 A: My uncle for one, Glenn George, and 9 most of the other people in the Inquiry. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. Do you recall 11 approximately how many people were there? 12 A: I'd have to say twenty-five (25) or 13 thirty (30). 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Approximate. 16 Q: And if I could ask you again to speak 17 up just a little bit so everyone can hear you. Tell us 18 if you -- if you would what was discussed -- what was 19 being discussed at that meeting? 20 A: I couldn't recall for sure, but I -- 21 I could -- no, I don't know. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I could speculate. 24 Q: All right. And I would ask you not 25 to speculate, Mr. George.
1431 A: Okay. 2 Q: Thank you. You indicated earlier 3 that it was at that meeting, though, that you learned of 4 peoples' intention to go into the built-up area of the 5 Army Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so I take it from that that you 8 must have overhead or participated in some discussions 9 about the -- about the takeover. 10 A: Yes. I -- I knew what -- what I was 11 supposed to do, but I didn't necessarily pay attention to 12 the rest of the meeting. 13 Q: Okay. Can you describe the 14 conversation that took place where you learned what you 15 were supposed to do? 16 A: I can't describe it in detail, no. 17 Q: Okay. Who was that conversation 18 with? 19 A: Not just one (1) person, it was 20 amongst a group. 21 Q: All right. Can you recall the names 22 of any of the people that you were -- that were speaking 23 to you about that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. All right. And what were you
1441 told? 2 A: I was told that -- my route to take 3 and -- I can't remember what else. 4 Q: Okay. Were you told that you should 5 drive the -- the school bus into the barracks area? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. How did you know about the 8 meeting at the beach? 9 A: I didn't know about it until I got 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. And what brought you to the 12 beach area? 13 A: I -- I planned on visiting there that 14 day. 15 Q: So you just happened upon the 16 meeting? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. You've told us that you 19 were instructed to take -- to drive the school bus into 20 the barracks area. I'm going to put up a map of the -- 21 the Army Camp again and ask that it moved down a little 22 bit. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1451 Q: Just one (1) moment, Mr. 2 Commissioner, Mr. George. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: My apologies, Mr. Commissioner and 7 Mr. George. We now have Exhibit P-136 up on the screen. 8 If you could indicate, Mr. George, and just to be clear, 9 I'm asking you to indicate where you were told to go as 10 opposed to where you actually went, if there's any 11 difference. 12 So could you indicate on that map the 13 route where you were instructed to take the bus? 14 A: To go down this road here through 15 this gate there from where the bus was on the beach over 16 where I indicated earlier. 17 Q: Okay. Just to back up a little bit. 18 How was the bus to get off the beach and onto the road? 19 Can you describe the route that it should have taken? 20 You were told to -- to drive it? 21 A: Like there's -- there's an entrance 22 right there -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and just went through that -- 25 there's a road inside the Park, there's no gates or
1461 nothing. So I just drove down that road and all the way 2 down there. 3 Q: All right. And were you given any 4 specific instructions about where you were to take the 5 bus in the built-up area? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. Were you told -- what were you 8 told about what you were to do once you got to the built- 9 up area? 10 A: I think I could have been told not to 11 stop for the MP's. 12 Q: And are you sure that that's what you 13 were told or you just -- that's all? 14 A: No, I'm not sure. 15 Q: All right, thank you. Okay, so you 16 got on -- did you then get onto the school bus after you 17 were told -- after the meeting? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I understand you would have left the 20 meeting? 21 A: Yeah. Well, me and whoever. 22 Q: And what did you do next? 23 A: Proceeded to go towards the -- the 24 Barracks. 25 Q: Okay. So you got -- you boarded the
1471 school bus; who else was on the school bus with you? 2 A: I don't know for sure. 3 Q: There were other people on the school 4 bus with you? 5 A: Yes. At least -- anywhere between 6 five (5) to ten (10). 7 Q: Can you recall how old those people 8 would have been? 9 A: Around my age and possibly one (1) or 10 two (2) people that were a couple of years younger than 11 me at the time. 12 Q: A couple of years? So they would 13 have been twelve (12) or thirteen (13)? 14 A: Possibly. Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And do you recall Nicholas 16 Cotrelle being on that bus with you? 17 A: No, I can't recall. 18 Q: Do you recall Jason Kenneth Noah 19 being on the bus with you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: How old is he? Or how old was he in 22 relation to you? 23 A: He was a few -- he was a few years 24 older, maybe ten (10), I don't know. 25 Q: Maybe ten (10) years old than you?
1481 A: Maybe. 2 Q: So he would have been twenty-five 3 (25) at the time? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. So you were on the bus; what 6 did you do next? 7 A: Would of drove down the beach. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. You indicated before that 9 you -- or I believe you indicated before that you drove 10 along the road that's on the easternmost edge of 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And then turned west, was that 14 on Matheson Drive that you turned west? 15 A: No. There's another road that runs 16 parallel to Matheson Drive and it's in the boundary of 17 the Army Camp. But it's right parallel to Matheson 18 Drive. 19 Q: Okay. And does that road turn south, 20 as we can see on the map there? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And did you follow that 23 road? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Okay. Can you indicate with the
1491 laser pointer, again, the route that you took along the 2 road that's immediately to the east of the boundary -- of 3 the western boundary of the -- the Military -- the Army 4 Camp? 5 If you take the laser pointer? 6 A: It would have been right here. 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: The -- 9 Q: Okay. And then trace the -- the 10 route that you took? Okay. All right. Just -- just to 11 hold up for a moment. At any point did you encounter in 12 the -- while you were driving the bus any obstacles along 13 the road? 14 A: The gate, when I got to the Barracks. 15 16 Q: Okay. Can you indicate on the map 17 where -- where that gate was? 18 A: Right there somewhere's. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you. And I'm just going 20 to switch -- switch maps here to a -- a larger one of the 21 Barracks, which you'll also see in front of you. 22 Was the gate you encountered on the area 23 that's covered by the map that we have up on the screen 24 there which is covered by -- or which had been entered 25 previously as Exhibit P-41?
1501 A: I know where it is, I can't see the 2 gate there though. 3 Q: Is it -- is it on the area covered by 4 the map? 5 A: It's right there. Right at the very 6 end. 7 Q: Where the little magnifying glass is 8 there? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. For the record, he's indicating 11 the northernmost tip, northwestern tip of the area 12 covered by the built-up area. 13 And if I could ask you to mark on the hard 14 copy with a pen, with the number 1 beside it, where that 15 gate was? Thank you. 16 And if we could get that map entered as 17 the next exhibit? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-137. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-137. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-137: Document 2002436, Page 35, 22 Schematic Diagram of Camp 23 Ipperwash Military Barracks 24 Marked by Witness Harley George, 25 Jan 20/05.
1511 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 2 Q: All right. What happened when you 3 arrived at the gate? 4 A: I turned the bus round and backed it 5 through the gate. 6 Q: Okay. And were there any Military 7 personnel at the gate? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You turned -- so you turned the bus 10 around and backed it through the gate, did the -- what 11 did that do to the gate? 12 A: Opened it. 13 Q: Did it break the gate? 14 A: The chain that was holding it closed, 15 broke that anyways. 16 Q: Okay, so the gate was locked? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Did that do any damage to the bus? 19 A: Yeah, it smashed the rear window of 20 that emergency exit door, on the -- closest to the 21 ground. 22 Q: Okay. Were you aware of that when 23 you were backing the bus up? 24 A: Yeah, I heard it. 25 Q: Okay. Okay, what -- what did you do
1521 once you'd backed through the Gate? 2 A: Turned the -- turned the bus around-- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- and proceeded to go forward. 5 Q: Okay. And if you could indicate on 6 the map that's up on the screen that's been marked as 7 Exhibit P-137, the route that you took, with the laser 8 pointer. And then I'm also going to ask you later to do 9 it with a pen on the hard -- on the paper. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Thanks. 12 A: Come down this road here -- 13 Q: Oh, could you -- could you slow down 14 just a little bit, so I can tell, for the record, what -- 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: -- where you're pointing. Okay. 17 A: This road there. 18 Q: All right, so you were travelling 19 south of the gate? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right, please continue? 22 A: And then -- 23 Q: Along the road. 24 A: -- I turned right in front of the 25 gatehouse.
1531 Q: That's the main gatehouse for the 2 entire Army Camp? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. To the immediate west of 5 that. And where did you turn? 6 A: Down this road here. 7 Q: Okay. So you turned down a road that 8 was going southeast from the gatehouse. And then what 9 did you do? 10 A: I entered the Parade Square and I 11 either did a circle or a figure eight (8) around several 12 transport trailers that were in the Parade Square. 13 Q: Okay. And can you tell us how fast 14 you would have been going as you travelled from the gate 15 to the Parade Square area? 16 A: No more than ten (10) kilometres an 17 hour. 18 Q: So you were travelling quite slowly? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And you've told us that 21 you were circling around transport trailers that were on 22 the -- on the Parade Square? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Were there any Military personnel? 25 A: Yes, they were following me around in
1541 a circle. 2 Q: Okay. When did they start following 3 you? 4 A: As soon as I went by the gatehouse, 5 and entered the Parade Square. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Or to my knowledge, I don't know, 8 they could have been following me further down the road 9 though. 10 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge, were 11 those the first Military personnel that you'd 12 encountered, during this -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- this episode today? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: That day. Okay. So after you 17 circled around the transport trailers, what did you do 18 next? 19 A: And I pulled up to the rec. centre 20 door. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. Can you indicate on the map 22 where -- okay. 23 A: Right there. 24 Q: That door? 25 A: Yeah.
1551 Q: All right. And what did you do next? 2 A: I pulled up to the door slowly and -- 3 and began to push it in with the bus. 4 Q: Okay. What were the Military 5 personnel doing at that point? 6 A: The -- they parked a Jeep behind the 7 bus. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. And were they saying 9 anything to you that you could hear? 10 A: No, not until I got moving again. 11 Q: Okay, so what happened next? 12 A: After that Jeep pulled behind the 13 bus -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- I -- I reversed it for 16 approximately twenty (20) feet, and then the door swung 17 open when I was going in reverse. 18 Q: The door to the bus? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And then the MP entered the bus. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: And told me to stop the bus. 24 Q: All right. And approximately how 25 many Military personnel were in the area of the bus that
1561 you could see? 2 A: I could see the one (1) driving the 3 Jeep and the other person that got out of the Jeep. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. Were there more 5 -- more than that? 6 A: Not at that time. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: This was shortly afterwards I seen 9 more of them arrive. 10 Q: Okay. You've indicated that an MP -- 11 a member of the Military Police boarded the bus? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Was that by the -- the front door of 14 the bus? 15 A: Yeah, that side door. 16 Q: Okay. And what did he do? 17 A: He sprayed me in the face with pepper 18 spray. 19 Q: Okay. Did he say anything to you? 20 A: Stop the bus, at the same time he was 21 doing that, I think. 22 Q: So just to be very precise, he said 23 it while he was spraying you and not before he -- he 24 sprayed you? 25 A: Yes.
1571 Q: Okay. Where he was standing, 2 exactly, on the bus when he did that? 3 A: The first step of the doorway in the 4 bus. 5 Q: Okay. So he sprayed you. Did you 6 get pepper spray on you? 7 A: Yeah, I got it in one (1) of my 8 eyeballs. 9 Q: And, to your knowledge, was anyone 10 else on the bus also pepper sprayed? 11 A: Not that I seen. 12 Q: Okay. What were the other people on 13 the bus doing at that point? 14 A: I don't know. 15 Q: You can't recall? 16 A: No. I -- well, I couldn't see them. 17 Q: All right. Could you hear them 18 saying anything? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: And what happened next? 21 A: I -- I exited the bus. 22 Q: By -- was the member of the Military 23 Police still on the bus when you exited the bus? 24 A: Yeah, he was still on the same spot 25 on the first step.
1581 Q: How did -- how did you get off the 2 bus? 3 A: I walked myself. 4 Q: Did you walk past the -- the MP? 5 A: No, he was right at the doorway 6 there -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- and I kicked at him when I was 9 getting out of the bus, but I -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- I think I missed him. 12 Q: Okay. You say you kicked at him. 13 Did you actually kick him? 14 A: I don't think so. 15 Q: Okay. All right. And when you 16 kicked at him, what -- what did he do? 17 A: He -- he got out of the road. 18 Q: He got off -- he got off the bus? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. And you got off the bus 21 after that? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. What did you do next? 24 A: As soon as I got off the bus, I kind 25 of walked to the -- he was standing on my left and then
1591 as soon as I got off the bus I just walked away from him 2 to my right with my back to him. 3 And then, as I was walking -- walking away 4 from him, he kicked my foot and I fell down on the 5 pavement. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And then after that I went toward -- 8 went after him. 9 Q: What do you mean by "went after him"? 10 A: I tried to fight him. 11 Q: Did you strike him? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: All right. So you say you tried to 14 fight him. Can you describe what you were doing, and 15 what he did? 16 A: I -- when I was walking towards him, 17 kind of fast -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: -- he was spraying pepper spray at 20 me. I had my hand in front of my face to block the 21 stream of the pepper spray. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: And then when I got close enough, I 24 started swinging at him. 25 Q: Okay. Did you land any punches?
1601 A: I don't think so. I remember 2 glancing off of him. 3 Q: Okay. And did make any attempts to 4 hit you? 5 A: Not that I recall. 6 Q: Can you tell us who else was in the 7 area at the time of this incident? 8 A: Within a small time period it was 9 just me there. 10 Q: Okay. And how did your -- the 11 struggle that you've described with the member of the 12 Military Police, how did that come to an end? 13 A: Several more vehicles and supporters 14 had arrived at the Parade Square at the time and then I 15 believe he just -- he didn't pursue me and I just walked 16 away from the altercation towards the group of people. 17 Q: Okay. And can you indicate on the 18 map, that's marked as Exhibit P-137 behind you, where 19 that altercation would have taken place? 20 A: Right about there. 21 Q: All right. For the record, he's 22 indicating a spot to the southwest of the garage. Is 23 that -- that's the building you've described as the 24 garage? 25 A: It's the rec. centre.
1611 Q: Oh, sorry, the rec. centre. All 2 right, I'm going to take you back a little bit and you 3 ask to mark as I said I would -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- on -- on the map of the barracks 6 area, that's Exhibit P-137, the route that you took from 7 the gate -- the gatehouse into the Parade Square. If you 8 could do that with a pen? Okay. Or -- have you 9 indicated right from where you went through the gates? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I'm sorry. I -- I was wrong in my 12 ques -- or my instructions there. If you could trace the 13 route that you went from the gates all the way to the 14 Parade Square and put a number 2 somewhere beside that 15 line. Okay. 16 And could you also indicate on the map of 17 the Parade Square or the Parade Square on the map, the 18 route that you took to get to the rec. centre. 19 A: So you want me to make the circles 20 and stuff? Okay. 21 Q: If you can. And put a number 3 22 beside that line. And if you could mark where on the -- 23 immediately outside the rec. centre you drove the bus 24 into the -- the garage door at the -- at the rec. centre. 25 Mark that with a number 4.
1621 And finally, if you could indicate where 2 on the Parade Square the altercation with the member of 3 the Military Police took place. And mark that with a 4 number 5. 5 Thank you, Mr. George. Okay. So you told 6 us that several supporters arrived in -- in vehicles some 7 time during your altercation with -- with the MP? 8 A: Yep. 9 Q: Can you say how many would have 10 arrived at that point? 11 A: No. I -- I specifically remember 12 seeing one (1) vehicle and it was full. But I know there 13 was other ones around that showed up the same time. 14 Q: Okay. And if you can recall, how 15 many members of the Military were present by -- at the 16 end of the altercation? 17 A: I couldn't -- I can't recall because 18 I had the pepper spray in my eyes. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: I was looking out of one (1) eyeball 21 most of the time. 22 Q: And was there -- were there any words 23 exchanged between the occupiers that had arrived and the 24 members of the Military that you could hear? 25 A: At the time I couldn't recall. I
1631 know now that there was. 2 Q: So you've learned since then that 3 there were words exchanged? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. But you couldn't hear them -- 6 you can't recall now having heard them at the time? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. What happened next? 9 A: I believe I was -- somebody was 10 helping me wash my eye -- eyes out. 11 Q: All right. And what were you using 12 to wash your eyes out? 13 A: Water I think. 14 Q: Where did you get the water? 15 A: That -- the people that were -- that 16 -- that ride in the first car had it -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- in their -- in their vehicle I 19 guess. 20 Q: All right. And what did you do after 21 that? 22 A: Washed it out for a long time. Wash 23 my eyeballs out. 24 Q: Can you describe the effects that the 25 pepper spray had on you?
1641 A: Yeah. It burned the skin as well as 2 the eyeballs. 3 Q: And what -- what part of you did it 4 get on? 5 A: All over my shoulders, my chest, 6 back, face and eventually it was around down my belly 7 further. 8 Q: Hmm, hmm. Okay. And you got in your 9 eyes as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did you get any in your nose? 12 A: Not that I recall. 13 Q: In your mouth? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And were you having any difficulty 16 breathing? 17 A: No. 18 Q: How long would you say that the 19 effects of the pepper spray lasted for you? 20 A: Maybe two (2) hours, three (3) hours. 21 Q: All right. In the time immediately 22 following the altercation that you've described, you said 23 that you were washing the pepper spray off you, can you 24 tell me -- tell us what else was happening during that 25 time?
1651 A: No. 2 Q: No. Do you remember where -- do you 3 recall where the members of the Military were at the 4 Camp? 5 A: For a while they were still on the 6 Parade Square. 7 Q: And what was happening while they 8 were still on the Parade Square? 9 A: A confrontation I guess. 10 Confrontation. 11 Q: All right. Can you describe that 12 confrontation? 13 A: There was one (1) group of people 14 standing over here and another group standing over there 15 and they're yelling at each other. 16 Q: All right. Could you hear what they 17 were yelling? 18 A: No. Well, I probably could, but I 19 don't remember what they were saying. 20 Q: And do you remember roughly how many 21 members of the Military were present at that time? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you recall seeing anyone that you 24 believed to be a person in command at the Parade Square? 25 A: I recall seeing a person telling
1661 other MPs what to do and they were listening to him. 2 Q: What was he telling the other MPs to 3 do? 4 A: I think he was telling them not to 5 altercate with us. 6 Q: So not to fight with you? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Did you ever learn that officer's 9 name? 10 A: Which one? 11 Q: The officer that was telling the 12 MPs -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- what to do? Can you describe him? 15 A: No. He had a -- he had a Army 16 uniform on. That's all I know. 17 Q: Thank you. So you've indicated that 18 there was a confrontation occurring between the people -- 19 the occupiers and the members of the Military on the 20 Parade Square, can you tell me how that came to an end? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did the Military leave the Parade 23 Square? 24 A: I think so. But by this time I 25 couldn't see anything.
1671 Q: But you know at some point you 2 observed that there were no Military people on the Parade 3 Square? 4 A: Yes. But this would have been at 5 least three (3) hours later when I could see. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know where the Military 7 people had gone by that point? 8 A: Yes, I think I did know. 9 Q: Can you tell us where that was? 10 A: To one (1) -- one (1) of the barracks 11 to have a meeting. 12 Q: Do you know which building they were 13 in? 14 A: I don't know for sure. But I can -- 15 you know. 16 Q: And to your knowledge, was anyone 17 else on the bus suffering from the effects of pepper 18 spray? 19 A: Not to my knowledge. 20 Q: Okay. Just to take you back for a 21 moment, do you recall at any point on the Parade Square 22 seeing a forklift? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was the forklift doing? 25 A: Opening the -- finish opening the
1681 garage door. 2 Q: All right. When was this? 3 A: Immediately after I had backed the 4 bus into a Jeep. 5 Q: All right. And do you recall who was 6 driving the forklift? 7 A: No. I don't recall. But I know now 8 who it is -- it was. 9 Q: If you didn't know at the time? 10 A: No, I didn't know at the time. 11 Q: Thank you. Did you ever see the 12 forklift being driven directly at a member of the 13 Military? 14 A: No. I -- I -- I also believe that I 15 think the forklift was inside the rec. centre and -- and 16 when he opened the door I think he opened it from the 17 inside of the rec. centre with the forklift and/or 18 crashed through it. 19 Q: Okay. At any point did you see 20 members of the Military leave the Army Camp? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Prior to that time, were 23 you aware of any meetings that happened between the 24 occupiers and the members of the Military? 25 A: Oh, can I back the question up?
1691 Q: Yes, please do. 2 A: What was the first question? 3 Q: All right. At any time, prior to the 4 members of the Military leaving the Army Camp, so before 5 that -- 6 A: Oh, no. 7 Q: So there were no meetings between the 8 occupiers and -- 9 A: Yes, there was a meeting but I -- in 10 between the meeting and when they left I never seen any 11 other Army personnel leave until they were all left at 12 once. 13 Q: Okay. My question is, whether you 14 were aware of any meetings taking place between members 15 of the Military and occupiers? 16 A: Yes, I was aware. 17 Q: And can you tell us what -- what you 18 knew of that meeting? 19 A: I knew that they were trying to give 20 us some buildings and keep some for theirselves. 21 Q: Okay. Who took part in that meeting? 22 A: I don't know for sure. I know -- 23 well, I know I was there listening in on the meeting. 24 Q: You were there? 25 A: Yeah.
1701 Q: Okay. But you can't recall the ident 2 -- who else was in the meeting of the occupiers? 3 A: No, I can't recall everybody there. 4 Q: Was Glenn George there? 5 A: I can't recall. 6 Q: Okay, and how many members of the 7 Military were present? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Okay. Can you recall which building 10 that took place in? 11 A: I think it was at one (1) of the 12 chapels. 13 Q: One (1) of the chapels? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Would you be able to identify it on 16 the map of the built-up area? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: If such a map were up behind you. 19 Just one (1) moment please. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: All right, if you could indicate on 24 Exhibit P-137, the map is behind you, with the laser 25 pointer, which building that took -- that meeting would
1711 have taken place in? 2 A: This one (1) here. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. And for the 4 record, he's indicating a building -- can you see a 5 building number on the map in front of you on that 6 building? 7 A: Not clearly. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: It's forty-six (46) or forty-four 10 (44). 11 Q: All right, thank you. And if you 12 could circle that -- that building on the map in front of 13 you, and mark that with a number -- number 6? 14 My Friend, Ms. Vella, advises that that 15 number 46 is the Roman Catholic Chapel. Does that accord 16 with what you remember? 17 A: That sounds right, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Okay, just to take you back to 19 the forklift, you indicated that you believe you know who 20 was driving the forklift, can you tell us who that was? 21 A: Yeah, I think it was Lincoln Jackson. 22 23 Q: And what was the basis for your 24 belief that it was Lincoln Jackson, how did you learn 25 that?
1721 A: Well, I learned it after -- after he 2 got out of jail for that. 3 Q: Okay. And who told you? 4 A: Lincoln Jackson. 5 Q: All right. So, can you tell us 6 roughly when you saw members of the Military leaving the 7 Army Camp? 8 A: All of them, leaving all at -- 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: It was at nighttime. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I don't know what the time was. 13 Q: It was after dark? 14 A: Just -- yeah, it just got dark. 15 Q: Just after dark? 16 A: Well, it was dark enough, but it -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- only got dark about an hour ago, I 19 guess. 20 Q: All right, thank you. And by what 21 route did they leave the Army Camp? 22 A: The main entrance gate -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- of the barracks. 25 Q: Okay. And did they leave in their
1731 vehicles? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did all of them leave? 4 A: Eventually. 5 Q: Okay. And did they all leave at the 6 same time? 7 A: Within a half an hour I guess. 8 Q: All right. And during this time, 9 what were you doing? 10 A: I think I was probably going building 11 to building, looking in them. 12 Q: Okay. In general, in the time after 13 you left the Parade Square, what were people in the Army 14 Camp doing, the occupiers, I mean? 15 A: I don't know, I know what I was doing 16 but not everybody else. 17 Q: Okay, what were you doing? 18 A: Going into any barrack I felt like 19 and looking around. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. And were the doors to those 21 buildings locked? 22 A: Some of them. 23 Q: Okay. Did you get into the buildings 24 anyway? 25 A: Yes.
1741 Q: How did you get in? 2 A: Kicked the door in. 3 Q: Okay. And why were you going into 4 the buildings? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Something to do. 8 Q: And at this point how were you 9 feeling about being in the built-up area of the Army 10 Camp? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: You can't recall how you were 13 feeling? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. All right, at any point did 16 you claim a building at -- in the built-up area to stay 17 in yourself? 18 A: I wouldn't say I claimed it, but I -- 19 there was one (1) that was provided for us. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: We were -- we were told we could go 22 move out stuff in there? 23 Q: Okay. You were told by whom? 24 A: I'm not sure exactly. 25 Q: Okay. And you said, We were told,
1751 who else was with you? 2 A: The small -- my cousins that were the 3 same age. I usually hung around with about three (3) or 4 four (4) of them -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- and it was either, like, I was 7 with Ugga and Wes George -- Ugga Cottrelle -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm? 9 A: -- and Wes George and possibly Dale 10 George. 11 Q: So, you were all staying in the same 12 building? 13 A: Yeah, for that night. 14 Q: All right. And which building was 15 that? 16 A: The Officer's Mess, I think it's 17 called. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Or Officer's Quarters. It could have 20 been the Mess, though. 21 Q: If you could indicate with the laser 22 pointer on the map on the screen which building it was? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: For precision. Okay. Can you make 25 out a number for that building on the map in front of
1761 you? 2 A: I think maybe forty-three (43). 3 Q: Forty-three (43)? And if you could 4 circle the building on Exhibit P-137 and mark that with a 5 seven (7)? 6 Okay, I'm going to move past the -- the 7 occupation of the barracks on July 29th, 1995 and I'm 8 going to talk a little bit about the rest of the summer 9 prior to the occupation of the Park. 10 How long did you stay in the building that 11 you've indicated you moved into that night after the 12 night of July 29th? 13 A: No more than two (2) or three (3) 14 nights. 15 Q: Okay. And why did you stop staying 16 there? 17 A: Because I -- at the time there I just 18 -- I just came to the Camp on weekends and whatnot? 19 Q: Hmm hmm? 20 A: In between school and stuff like 21 that, so I wasn't -- I didn't really live down in the 22 Camp. 23 Q: Did you return to one (1) of your 24 parent's homes? 25 A: Yes.
1771 Q: All right. At any point that summer 2 were you involved in a car accident? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell us about that? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And would you tell us about that? 7 A: I -- I was hitching a ride from the 8 beach to get up to the barracks and the person that was 9 driving the vehicle smashed -- what do you want me to 10 tell you? 11 Q: Okay. Who -- do you know who was 12 driving the car? 13 A: No, I didn't know the person. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I still don't know his name. 16 Q: Were there any other passengers in 17 the car? 18 A: Yes. Wes -- Wesley George. 19 Q: So Wesley George was with you? 20 A: Yeah, and one (1) of -- the driver's 21 wife or girlfriend -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- was in the front seat. 24 Q: All right. And I understand that -- 25 or you've indicated that there was an accident.
1781 Can you tell us just in words where that 2 accident happened? 3 A: It was at the intersection of 4 Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road. 5 Q: All right. Were you injured in that 6 accident? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: What were your injuries? 9 A: Minor. 10 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what they 11 were? 12 A: Just joints -- joints were sore, my 13 knees, wrists, ankles, and my back. 14 Q: And how about the other occupants of 15 the car? Were they injured? 16 A: Well, the two (2) people in the front 17 seat were killed. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And you've indicated Wesley 19 George was also there, was he injured as well? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And what were his injuries? 22 A: His hip -- hip dislocated. 23 Q: Okay. Did you ever receive medical 24 treatment for your injuries? 25 A: No.
1791 Q: No. All right. Do you recall 2 roughly when this accident took place? 3 A: The time of night or the date? 4 Q: The date. 5 A: No, I don't recall. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall the time of 7 night or day? 8 A: Approximately -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- 11:00 -- 11:30. 11 Q: Okay. Did you -- that was a.m. you 12 said? 13 A: Yeah. Yes -- or, no. No, p.m. 14 Q: Okay. Were you -- 15 A: 11:00 p.m. 16 Q: -- were you staying at the Army Camp 17 at the time of the accident? 18 A: Yeah. For -- yeah. 19 Q: And how about after the accident, did 20 you continue to stay at the Army Camp? 21 A: For that night. Then, the very next 22 day, I -- I didn't stay down there for a while. 23 Q: How long did you not stay down there? 24 A: I couldn't say for sure. 25 Approximately a month.
1801 Q: And why did you not stay there? 2 A: My parents wouldn't let me. 3 Q: Okay. So, that would have -- I'm 4 going to move on to the Park now, Ipperwash Provincial 5 Park, Mr. George. 6 Prior to the occupation of the Park, did 7 you hear any discussions amongst the occupiers at the 8 Army Camp or anyone else about occupying the -- the Park? 9 A: Can I -- can I have the question 10 again? 11 Q: Sure. Before people went into the 12 Park, did you hear any discussion from the people in the 13 Army Camp or anyone else about people going in and 14 occupying the Army -- or the -- the Park? 15 A: Possibly, yes. 16 Q: Can you recall what conversations you 17 might have heard? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you remember anything that people 20 were talking about in relation to the Park? 21 A: I -- I remember this one (1) time, 22 not that -- I don't remember the date or anything, I 23 remember entering the Park when there was -- when it was 24 still being run by Parks people there, I remember 25 entering the Park and the group of people I entered there
1811 with, the -- that's when I kind of learned where the 2 grave sites were. 3 Q: Okay. So, you learned -- do you 4 remember who you were with? 5 A: Not exactly, no. 6 Q: You -- you said you -- you learned 7 that there were grave sites in the Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And their location? 10 A: Yeah. Rough location. 11 Q: Rough location. 12 Just one (1) moment's indulgence, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Hensel, 15 I'd like to take a very short break. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just for ten 18 (10) minutes. And then we'll go through until the end. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right. Thank 20 you, Mr. Commissioner. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 22 for ten (10) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 2:05 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 2:16 p.m.
1821 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 7 Q: Just to take you back, Mr. George. 8 You had indicated that before people went into the Park 9 to occupy it, you had visited the Park at some point with 10 other people, and you were shown areas in the Park where 11 there were grave sites? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you describe in the Park where 14 they were? 15 A: On the Point, what -- what we call 16 the Point. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. And where is that in the 18 Park? 19 A: Right behind the water treatment 20 facility. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. When was that 22 visit to the Park, if you can recall? 23 A: It was before we went into the 24 barracks. 25 Q: All right.
1831 A: The summer before we went to the 2 barracks, while the Park was still fully operational. 3 Q: So, it was the same summer that you 4 went into the barracks? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Or the summer before? 7 A: No. The same summer, I think. 8 Q: That would be the summer of 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Thank you. And had you ever been 11 told about the Park, Ipperwash Provincial Park being part 12 of Stoney Point lands? 13 This is before people went into the Park, 14 were you ever told that? 15 A: I don't think so, but I knew. I 16 wasn't told, I assumed. 17 Q: You assumed that? 18 A: Yeah, that it was part of our land 19 also. 20 Q: Why did you assume that? 21 A: Because it's right beside the -- the 22 Army Camp and it's -- it looked like the original 23 boundary could have been, like, where the Park was, that 24 -- that was originally Army Camp land, I think. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
1841 A: So I knew that -- that -- that the 2 Army Camp had sold that to the Provincial government or 3 like -- long time ago that -- that Provincial Park would 4 have been just part of the Army base. 5 Q: All right. And did you -- did you 6 know that before people went into the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you assumed that -- pardon my 9 scepticism, it doesn't sound like the sort of thing that 10 you would just assume necessarily. 11 A: I -- I don't know if I'd assumed it. 12 I think it might have been, like, a overhead conversation 13 and/or common knowledge. 14 Q: All right. Do you believe that you 15 heard it from other people? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. All right. Moving to 18 September of 1995, were you present when people went into 19 the Park -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- the first time? 22 A: No. 23 Q: We understand from other witnesses 24 that they did go in on September 4th and 5th, 1995. Were 25 you present in the Park at any point on September 4th or
1851 5th? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay, that's the first two (2) days 4 that people were in the Park. You can't recall if you 5 were in the Park at all those two (2) days? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall how you learned 8 that people had gone in to occupy Ipperwash Provincial 9 Park? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- and how did you learn? 12 A: When I went down there to visit that 13 day -- 14 Q: That day? 15 A: -- on my bicycle. 16 Q: Did you learn beforehand that people 17 were -- were occupying the Park before you went to visit? 18 A: Possibly. 19 Q: All right. And you said "that day". 20 What day was that? 21 A: The day that Dudley was shot. 22 Q: Okay. We understand that that took 23 place on September 6th, 1995. Would that have been the 24 first time that you visited the Park when people were 25 occupying it?
1861 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Where were you -- where were 3 you coming from when you visited the Park? 4 A: Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. And how did you get there? 6 A: By bicycle. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall what time you 8 arrived in the Park? 9 A: It was in the evening. 10 Q: Was it dark yet? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Did you see any police on your 13 way from Kettle Point to the Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you see any police at all that -- 16 once you were at the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Where were they? 19 A: The corner of East Parkway Drive and 20 Army Camp Road. 21 Q: Okay. How many officers were there? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: Okay. What were they doing? 24 A: Standing around their cruisers. 25 Q: And when you arrived, what were the
1871 people in the Park doing? 2 A: Basically just gathered around the 3 parking lot area. 4 Q: Was everyone that was at the Park, in 5 the parking lot area? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: Okay. And what were they doing 8 there? 9 A: Socializing. 10 Q: How long did you stay in the Park 11 that evening? 12 A: 'Til it was dark. Possibly a hour 13 after it was dark. 14 Q: Okay. So if you could approximate 15 how many hours you spent at the Park? 16 A: Four (4), maybe. 17 Q: Okay. What did you do while you were 18 there? 19 A: I don't recall everything I did when 20 I was there. 21 Q: Okay. If you can recall anything 22 that you did while you were there and share that with us, 23 that would be helpful. 24 A: Well I basically just visited and 25 talked to other people, found out what was going on.
1881 Q: Okay. Did you see any helicopters at 2 the Park that day? 3 A: I don't recall clearly. 4 Q: Okay. And you indicated that you 5 left shortly after dark, about an hour after it got dark? 6 A: Possibly. 7 Q: Okay. And why did you leave when you 8 did? 9 A: Because I had to go school next 10 morning. 11 Q: All right. Did you -- as you were 12 leaving the Park, could you see police in the area? 13 A: Just in that same area that I 14 indicated before, but not on the beach, the route that I 15 was taking. 16 Q: Okay. And can you describe the route 17 that you took back to Kettle Point? 18 A: Yes. It was all the way -- the beach 19 all the way in, and then once I got to Kettle Point, I 20 followed 21 one (1) of the roads up -- that goes up the hill. 22 Q: Okay. So you went back for the night 23 to Kettle Point? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: What did you do when you arrived
1891 home? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. Did you eventually go to bed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall about what time that 6 would have been? 7 A: Bedtime, you know. 8 Q: Bedtime. Did you go to sleep? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: At any point that night were you 11 awoken by anything? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What woke you up? 14 A: Telephone ringing. 15 Q: Who was calling? Or do you know who 16 was calling? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: Who answered the phone at your end? 19 A: I don't know for sure. I think it 20 was my sister. 21 Q: All right. And what do know about 22 what happened? What was told to whoever answered the 23 phone at your end on -- during that telephone call? 24 A: I knew that was -- I knew that Dudley 25 was shot and Nicholas too, possibly. I wasn't so sure
1901 though. And I also had heard that -- that my brother was 2 getting shot at. 3 Q: Which brother? 4 A: Warren George. 5 Q: Warren George. Did you hear anything 6 about his condition? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Were you concerned that he was 9 injured? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We need to 11 hear the -- you need to make a noise. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: So can you tell me what your family's 17 -- what your family did immediately after that phone 18 call? 19 A: I believe they all got up, like they 20 were all awake now. 21 Q: Okay. And what did you do for the 22 rest of the night? 23 A: Stayed up. 24 Q: Stayed up. Your entire family stayed 25 up?
1911 A: I think so. 2 Q: Okay. When did you learn that your 3 brother Warren -- did you learn that -- that night that 4 your brother Warren had not been shot? 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Do you recall when you learned that 7 your brother Warren had not been shot? 8 A: Later on that night. Possibly in the 9 morning time. 10 Q: Okay. So you've indicated that your 11 family stayed up for the rest of the night. Did you stay 12 home? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: When did you first leave your home on 15 the morning of September 7th? 16 A: Probably 11:00 to 12:00 noon. 17 Q: Okay. We could just go back. If you 18 can recall when the telephone call came in? 19 A: Approximately between 12:00 and 1:00 20 a.m. 21 Q: Okay. So you've told us that you 22 first left your house at roughly 12:00 or 1:00 the next 23 afternoon? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right.
1921 A: 11:00 to 1:00 actually. 11:00 to 2 12:00, I said. 3 Q: Okay. And what did you do then? 4 A: I got a ride to the Park. 5 Q: All right. You went directly to the 6 Park? Not the Army Camp? 7 A: Well, I went through -- went direct - 8 - went to the Army Camp and through the Army Camp to get 9 to the Park. 10 Q: What did you see when you went 11 through the Army Camp? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: Were there people gathered at the 14 Army Camp? 15 A: I don't recall, for -- 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do when you 17 got to the Park? 18 A: I think I went to talk to my friends, 19 find out what was going on. 20 Q: Who was there that you talked to? 21 A: I can't recall. 22 Q: Okay. Were there many people 23 gathered at the Park? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: Did you ever go to a parking lot that
1931 we've heard from other witnesses was owned by the 2 Ministry of Natural Resources on East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What did you see there? 5 A: A St. John's ambulance trailer. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: A St. John's ambulance trailer. 8 Q: All right. Were there any police in 9 that parking lot when you arrived? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Were there any other First Nations 12 people in the parking lot? 13 A: Maybe the one that was with me. 14 Q: And who was that? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Okay. You say you saw a St. John's 17 ambulance trailer in the parking lot, did you see 18 anything else? 19 A: No. Well, yes, I did actually. I -- 20 we walked around the parking lot a little bit and at the 21 edge of the bush line I do believe I seen a liquor bottle 22 or two (2). 23 Q: All right. Just one (1) or two (2)? 24 A: Yeah, or more. 25 Q: All right. And what did you do after
1941 that? 2 A: I think I went into the -- the 3 trailer itself and looked around. Looked at what was in 4 there. 5 Q: What was in there at that point? 6 A: It seemed as if it was cleared out. 7 Q: So there was nothing left in the 8 trailer? 9 A: I think there might have been a TV 10 screen or a computer screen or something in there. 11 Q: All right. Did you see anything that 12 looked like bags? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Just going back to when you were at 15 the Park, did you see anything on the ground there? 16 A: Yes. I seen bookcases. 17 Q: Did you pick any of them up? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And did you see other people picking 20 them up? 21 A: Not at that time. But I seen -- I -- 22 the reason why I remember so clearly is because I was 23 about to pick one (1) up and somebody told me not to, to 24 leave them where they were. 25 Q: All right. And did you see any rocks
1951 or sticks on the ground in the area -- in the sandy 2 parking lot area outside the Park -- outside the fence 3 line? 4 A: Not that I recall. 5 Q: Did you see anything else on the 6 ground there? 7 A: Not that I recall. 8 Q: Okay. All right. I have one (1) -- 9 just to take you back, I have one (1) question -- one (1) 10 further question for you, Mr. George. 11 When you were got on the bus on July 29th, 12 that's the day that you took it into the barracks area, 13 were there any sticks or pipes of any kind on the bus, 14 clubs; anything like that? 15 A: Not that I -- no -- known about. 16 Q: All right. So did you go through the 17 entire bus? Did you walk to the back of the bus when you 18 first got on? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did you have a look behind you in 21 the bus when you first got on to drive it? 22 A: I had a look at the passengers of the 23 bus, not the contents. 24 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right. Thank 25 you, Mr. George. Those are my questions.
1961 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 Does anyone wish to cross-examine? Mr. Rosenthal and Mr. 4 Roland. How many minutes? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Two (2) to four 6 (4). 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many 8 minutes? 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Two (2) or four 10 (4). 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 12 Roland...? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: I might be an hour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 15 Downard...? 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Ten (10) to fifteen 17 (15) minutes, subject to abridgement. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 19 should start and try to finish. Mr. Rosenthal...? 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Good 23 afternoon, sir. My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm 24 representing Aazhoodena and the George Family Group which 25 is a number of descendants of Dan and Melva George in
1971 this proceeding. 2 I just want to ask you a couple of 3 questions. First off, about Dudley George. You told us 4 you didn't know him very well and, of course, you were 5 only fifteen (15) years old when he died. 6 But as a child, did you have some 7 interaction with him? I understand that he interacted 8 well with children; could you tell us about that? 9 A: I -- well, I seen him -- like, he 10 would visit my father all the time and he was like really 11 friendly with children. He would joke with them and make 12 them laugh. 13 Q: I see. Thank you. Now, prior to the 14 incident on June 29th, 1995 when you entered the built-up 15 area, were you involved in any other incidents with the 16 Military or Military Police involving the bus? In 17 particular, say, in June of that year? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You were involved in some of those 20 incidents? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what -- what was the nature of 23 those? 24 A: The sign knocking down incident, I 25 believe.
1981 Q: There was a -- a signed knocked down 2 by one (1) of the First Nations people? 3 A: By me. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: By me. 6 Q: By you? And what did that lead to 7 then? 8 A: That was -- well after we had taken 9 out both the signs there, that was when Ugga was arrested 10 for burning one (1) of them, the ones that were closest 11 to the Park. 12 Q: Right. But you had been the person 13 who had knocked it down? 14 A: The -- yeah. 15 Q: Now, finally, you told us that you 16 were pepper sprayed on two (2) occasions on July 29th, 17 1995, and you told us a bit about the effects. What 18 about the pain? Was it painful to be pepper sprayed? 19 A: Yeah, I guess it was kind of painful. 20 Q: And it was -- you say it was two (2) 21 to three (3) hours before you were able to clean it out 22 of your eyes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And how about with respect to the -- 25 the burning on your skin? Did that also last for two (2)
1991 to three (3) hours? 2 A: Yeah. Well, the burning on the skin 3 kind of lasts a little bit longer than the -- the vision. 4 Q: Even more than two (2) to three (3) 5 hours, you mean? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And then did you seek any -- any way 8 of trying to lessen that, or you just waited until it 9 subsided? 10 A: Yeah, I was -- I was washing my face 11 with water and whatnot, and after about three (3) or four 12 (4) hours when it wasn't going away, I went down to the 13 beach and swam. 14 Q: And did that seem to wash it away 15 then? 16 A: Yeah, if I stayed in the water. 17 Q: So the burning -- 18 A: As soon as you got out of the water 19 it come right back. 20 Q: Ah, yeah, and so -- so the water just 21 made it feel better, but then didn't seem to wash it 22 away? 23 A: No. 24 Q: So how long was it that you still 25 felt the burning on your skin?
2001 A: Approximately three (3) hours. 2 Q: I see. Thank you very much, sir. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Rosenthal. Mr. Roland...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: Good morning, Mr. George -- or good 12 afternoon, Mr. George, my name's Ian Roland, I act for 13 the Ontario Provincial Police Association, I have some 14 questions for you. 15 And let me start with the evidence you've 16 given this afternoon around and leading up to driving the 17 bus into the built-up area on July 29, 1995. 18 And what you told Ms. Hensel this 19 afternoon, is that you first learned about this 20 occupation of the barracks by the occupiers of the Camp, 21 when you were at the beach that day -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- right? And you just happened 24 upon, what you described as, a large group of people, 25 twenty (20) or thirty (30) people who were at the beach
2011 that day? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the bus was present? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it there were a number of 6 cars present as well, were there? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you told us that you recall Glenn 9 George was present, and he's been described by the 10 Military personnel who have done reports about the 11 barracks occupation, as the apparent leader of the group. 12 Was that apparent to you, that he was a 13 leader of this group? 14 A: Yes, I'd say it was apparent, but at 15 the same time there -- we didn't really look at him as a 16 leader. 17 Q: Yeah. But I take it you remember his 18 name, in particular, he was I assume, taking some sort of 19 leadership role in -- amongst the group, was he? 20 A: The -- the way I looked at it as 21 whenever he was taking leadership of the role there, he 22 was kind of forced into it. 23 Q: I see. Well, however he came to -- 24 to assume the role, he nevertheless appeared to assume 25 the role, did he?
2021 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And you told us that most 3 of the other people who were there, were the people who 4 were at this Inquiry. I take it you're referring to the 5 people who've testified at this Inquiry are you? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And you say that you were 8 -- you were there for a discussion, you heard some of the 9 discussion. 10 And what you learned from the discussion 11 of this group of people is their intention to go into the 12 Army Camp, and you learned what you were supposed to do; 13 is that fair? 14 A: I -- I wouldn't say supposed to do, 15 because they offered -- like he didn't have -- nobody was 16 forced to do anything, it was your own decision. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: And the opportunity was given to me 19 and I took the opportunity. 20 Q: I see. So are you saying someone 21 asked you, let's get particular -- 22 A: Not necessarily. 23 Q: -- someone asked you if you'd drive 24 the bus? 25 A: Didn't really ask me, they suggested
2031 it. 2 Q: Someone suggested to you to drive the 3 bus? 4 A: Not just one (1) person, the group, 5 in general. 6 Q: Okay, so the group of people 7 suggested you be the bus driver? 8 A: Not in so many words. 9 Q: That's what you understood from -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- the discussion? All right. 12 A: Not -- not from the discussion. 13 Q: From what they said? 14 A: No, from -- because I was kind of the 15 caretaker of the bus before that time. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: And the meeting went on there and I 18 just -- everybody just automatically assumed that I was 19 going to drive it. 20 Q: I see. Well you were -- you were 21 then fifteen (15) years old? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, that's not old enough, at the 24 time, to have a driver's license is it? 25 A: No.
2041 Q: No. And I gather you'd driven the 2 bus sometime before that, had you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You were familiar with the bus and 5 with driving the bus? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: How many times had you driven the bus 8 before July 29, 1995, approximately? 9 A: Half a dozen. 10 Q: Half a dozen. And who instructed you 11 on driving, was it your father, Warren, who instructed 12 you on it? 13 A: I had taught myself. 14 Q: You taught yourself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was the bus, as we've heard from 17 Nicholas Cotrelle, just generally available to whoever 18 wanted to drive it, amongst the occupiers? 19 A: I guess you could say that, but at 20 the same time they had to have a little bit of a reason, 21 or whatever, to take it. 22 Q: I see. You couldn't just take it 23 without some -- some reason? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And if you had a reason for
2051 taking it, did you have to get permission from anybody to 2 take it? 3 A: No. 4 Q: I see. So, what you're saying is if 5 you took it, and someone asked you about it, you'd have 6 to have a reason? 7 A: Yeah, like you couldn't just go drive 8 it around for something to do. 9 Q: Okay. In any event, you've told us 10 that there was a group of people who went on the bus with 11 you, you said five (5) to ten (10) around your age, a 12 couple were a little younger. 13 And Ms. Hensel asked you particularly 14 about -- she seemed to know about it, about Jason 15 Kenneth Noah being on the bus, and you said, Yes, you 16 remembered that he was on? 17 A: He was the only person that I 18 remember clearly. 19 Q: I see. And why is it that you 20 remember him and not others? 21 A: I believe I talked with -- talked to 22 him about it later on. 23 Q: And you say he's about -- he was 24 about ten (10) years older than you? 25 A: Approximately, yeah.
2061 Q: Yeah. And is there some reason why 2 he, as an adult, didn't drive the bus? He was apparently 3 the only adult on the bus, was he? 4 A: It was my duty and kind of my bus. 5 Q: I see. Okay, and so although he was 6 the only adult on the bus, you drove the bus because it 7 was sort of -- you were sort of responsible for the bus? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Now, you know that Mr. Noah has a 10 driver's license? 11 A: I know he does now. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: I didn't know if he did then, I kind 14 of assumed. 15 Q: Did you -- did you know that he had a 16 -- a -- Ford Taurus about this time? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. And so apart from Mr. Noah, 19 everybody on the bus was, as far as you recall, under 20 eighteen (18) years of age? 21 A: As far as I recall. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: But it could be wrong. 24 Q: Okay. Now, did you understand that 25 the exercise of you driving the bus was as we've heard it
2071 described, a diversion, or it was going to be used as a 2 diversion in the occupation of the built-up area? 3 Had you understood that at the time that 4 you were given the role of driving the bus? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: We've heard evidence that -- by some 10 that that was the -- seen as the role of you driving the 11 bus that it was a diversion so that others in -- in 12 automobiles could enter the built-up area at other 13 entrances. 14 Was that your general understanding of 15 what was going to occur when you were driving the bus, 16 that there would others enter the built-up area in their 17 vehicles at the same time? 18 A: Not really, no. I believe that the 19 way we all went at the same time, tried to enter the Camp 20 at the same time, I believe we were all part of the 21 diversion. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: All the vehicles that entered the 24 Camp, not just myself. 25 Q: Fair enough. But you -- and I don't
2081 think we're disagreeing on that, so you understood that 2 while you were entering the Camp with the bus, others 3 would be entering the Camp at other locations, at other 4 entrances, in vehicles? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there were many other vehicles; 7 weren't there? 8 A: Well, under ten (10). 9 Q: Under ten (10)? 10 A: My guess. 11 Q: Yeah. And I gather you understood 12 that all the people that you saw in this group down at 13 the beach were going to participate in this occupation of 14 the Barracks? 15 A: Yeah, that was my understanding. 16 Anybody that didn't want to take place in it could have 17 stayed on the beach. 18 Q: Yeah. Now, you say you were told the 19 route to take; who told you the route to take? 20 A: I don't recall. And it was discussed 21 amongst the group. So everybody seen the route that I 22 was -- like, we were -- we figured out a route and 23 decided amongst a group of people whether that would be 24 the route that we took. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. And then you
2091 were -- you told -- you were -- you said you were told 2 not to stop for the MP's and Ms. Hensel said, Are you 3 sure about that? She seemed to be doubtful of it and you 4 said you're not sure? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now, can you un-package that for me. 7 You -- you volunteered that you were told not to stop for 8 the MP's? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: What do you remember about that? 11 A: I remember that I would have -- it 12 would have complicated things if I did stop for them. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But if I just drove around really 15 slow they weren't -- they wouldn't be able to do 16 anything. 17 Q: And what did you understand it would 18 complicate things; what did that mean to you? 19 A: It meant I could possibly get charged 20 or something. 21 Q: I see. Charged -- 22 A: It meant the to me not to anybody 23 else. Q: Sorry? 24 A: It meant -- that's what it meant to 25 me. Q: I see. If you stop the bus for the
2101 MP's you might then be charged by them? 2 A: Yeah. And or arrested. 3 Q: And arrested? And so the idea, in 4 your mind then, was to proceed through into the barracks 5 and effect complete the occupation of the Barracks 6 without stopping, and therefore, trying to avoid arrest? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And do you remember any 9 discussion about arrest, about the risk of arrest? 10 A: No. 11 Q: In the planning, no? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, you told us something that I 14 found curious, as you approached the gate at the north 15 end of the barracks, that's on the road parallel to Army 16 Camp Road, you say you stopped at the gate before going 17 through the gate and you turned the bus around and backed 18 through the gate? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. That means you were be -- you 21 were -- you approached the gate face on; right? Head on? 22 And so you would have to make a -- well, with a school 23 bus, I take it you'd have to turn the bus a hundred and 24 eighty (180) degrees, fully around -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2111 Q: -- which would be what, a three (3) 2 or four (4) point turn of the bus? 3 A: I guess if you didn't know how to 4 drive it. 5 Q: At best it's a three (3) point turn; 6 right? 7 A: Not if you've got a lot of area to 8 manoeuvre it. 9 Q: I see. And you say you had a lot of 10 area to manoeuvre it there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And you then backed 13 through the gate? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Breaking the chain on the gate and 16 thus freeing the gate to open? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then you -- and then you -- you 19 then turned the bus around again? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Another -- again. So, you've now 22 turned the bus three hundred and sixty (360) degrees? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you tell us why you did that? 25 What was the point of that?
2121 A: So I wouldn't wreck the buses 2 radiator, so I could begin to -- continue my cruise, 3 after I went through the gate. 4 Q: I see. So, it was to -- but there's 5 a bumper on the bus, isn't there? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yeah. That's ahead of the radiator? 8 It's forward of the radiator, isn't it? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And -- it's the bumper that would 11 first come in contact with gate, isn't it? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah. All right. We've seen a 14 photograph of the -- of the bus at the rec. hall or drill 15 hall; I think it's the same building. You've referred to 16 it as the rec. hall but am I correct that it's -- it's 17 the same building as the drill hall, is that -- 18 A: Yes, it's the same building. 19 Q: Same building. And we've seen a 20 photograph of the bus at that location after you'd driven 21 it there and after you, as you told us, you backed into 22 the -- into the MP's vehicle. 23 And it shows the -- the photograph, it's 24 9-05, and it shows the -- at the back of the bus appears 25 to be a blanket over the back door. So, we can't
2131 actually see the window that's broken. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: But just below that blanket, it's 4 apparent on -- on the photograph that there's a pile of 5 glass. There's a lot of glass on the ground. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, can you explain how, if you 8 broke the window at the gate, how this broken glass 9 appeared on the ground out -- just in front -- 10 A: We -- 11 Q: -- of the drill hall? 12 A: We didn't clean it up aft -- when I 13 went through the gate. We just left it where it was. 14 And then when I banged into the other Jeep, it shook that 15 glass that was already broken on the floor and it shook 16 it onto the pavement. 17 Q: I see. So, what you're saying is 18 that when you broke the window of the bus at the gate, 19 the glass fell into the bus, as opposed to -- 20 A: Not all of it but -- a big majority 21 of the glass was inside the floor on the inside the bus. 22 Q: Okay. And so, when you then backed 23 into the Jeep, the force of that backing in had the glass 24 come out? 25 A: Yes.
2141 Q: I see. So, what you're telling us is 2 there was a fair degree of force when you hit the Jeep 3 with the bus? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Sorry, I call it a Jeep, I'm not sure 6 if that's a description. It's called a -- a Military 7 vehicle in -- in the documents referred to as a -- let me 8 just find it for the record -- it's referred to as -- as 9 a -- a vehicle called an Iltis, I-L-T-I-S. 10 I think, as I recall, I think that's the 11 vehicle, Military vehicle that caused some controversy 12 some time ago in Afghanistan, that wasn't -- seem to be 13 as -- as protective as it might be for office -- for the 14 Military. But that's another story. 15 In any event, I gather then, having, as 16 you say, having driven the bus into the drill hall doors 17 and partly broken the doors or smashed the doors, you 18 agree that the Military vehicle pulled up behind the bus. 19 And it pulled up so that it was facing at a ninety (90) 20 degree angle to the bus. 21 Its travel of direction was at ninety (90) 22 degrees to the bus' travel of direction; right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then, so, when you backed up, you 25 pushed it, effectively sideways, the distance that you
2151 backed up? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I heard your evidence, you put 4 that at about, you said, you think about twenty (20) 5 metres -- or twenty (20) feet, I mean? 6 A: Yeah, feet. 7 Q: It might -- would you agree it might 8 be more the -- certainly the Military -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- reported this as fifteen (15) 11 metres, which is more like about forty-five (45) feet or 12 more; is that possible? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And when you were backing 15 this up and pushing it, I take it you could feel push -- 16 you could feel the bus pushing it? 17 A: I was looking right at, I don't -- I 18 don't know if I could feel it but -- 19 Q: You -- you could feel the resistance 20 in backing up, pushing a vehicle like that sideways? 21 A: No. The bus had too much power. 22 Q: I see. But anyway, you -- you were 23 able to watch this, doing this, and seeing it pushing it 24 sideways in -- in your rearview mirror. 25 A: I might have been turned right around
2161 in my seat. 2 Q: Oh, you turned around and watched it? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And did you note that there 5 was still one (1) officer -- one (1) MP in the vehicle? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yeah. And you note the other one 8 wasn't in -- there was only one, the other -- 9 A: Yeah I seen -- I seen the other guy 10 get out of the way when I narrowly missed him. 11 Q: Yeah. Okay. And -- and what were you 12 trying to achieve in this? Why -- why were you pushing 13 this vehicle, this Military vehicle back some fifteen 14 (15) metres or forty-five feet? 15 A: I didn't want to be contained by that 16 vehicle. 17 Q: And why was that? Why didn't you 18 want to be contained? 19 A: I didn't want to deal with them. I 20 didn't want to talk to them. 21 Q: I see. And I take it you didn't -- 22 also didn't want to be apprehended by them, did you? 23 A: No, I guess not. 24 Q: No. And but you were -- already told 25 us you had in your mind this concern about being
2171 arrested? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if you were going to be arrested 4 before you got to the drill hall, isn't it fair to say 5 that you were even more likely to be arrested having 6 driven the bus into the drill hall door? 7 A: Once I -- once I decided that I was 8 going to drive the bus over there, I didn't really think 9 too much about getting charged anymore. 10 Q: You mean once you drove out of -- 11 from the beach? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: That -- 14 A: As soon -- as soon as I was -- knew 15 we were going to head towards the barracks. 16 Q: Yeah. Had there been any discussion 17 with you before you went on this exercise from the beach, 18 about the fact that if you were arrested, you were simply 19 going to be arrested as a young offender in any event? 20 It wasn't a big deal? 21 Was there any discussion like that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No. And you knew I take it at six -- 24 at fifteen (15) if you were arrested, you would be 25 arrested as a young offender?
2181 A: I didn't think about that. 2 Q: You didn't. Now having pushed the -- 3 the Military vehicle back with your bu -- with the bus, 4 some, at least Military puts it, some forty-five (45) 5 feet or more, did you simply stop the bus at that stage 6 on your own? Or did something cause you to stop pushing 7 -- pushing the vehicle back? 8 A: Yeah, I stopped it myself. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: Because I was going to proceed to go 11 forward. 12 Q: You were going to proceed to move 13 forward? 14 A: And get away from the Jeep. 15 Q: I see. And you were going to -- your 16 intention was to drive the bus then in some other -- to 17 some other location, get out of that location? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And why -- why did you have that 20 intention? What were you trying to do? 21 A: It was -- it made the Army look 22 stupid because I was driving around really slow and they 23 couldn't stop the bus. 24 Q: I see. Okay. So you were going to 25 drive it around, carry it around, driving around the
2191 built-up area and your assumption was they wouldn't be 2 able to stop you? 3 A: Yes. Well I knew they wouldn't be 4 able to stop me. 5 Q: Okay. And I gather before you were 6 able to then put the bus in forward gear and move away, 7 that's when the officer came to the door -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- of the bus and -- and what -- did 10 he reach in the bus, did you say? 11 A: No, the -- when I -- when I hit the 12 Jeep -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- the door had swung open by 15 itself -- 16 Q: Oh, I see. From the force of the 17 hit? 18 A: Yeah. And then he tried to get his 19 foot or his -- half of his body in the door to keep it 20 open like that. And there's a lever -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- to close the door and I tried to 23 close it with that but I couldn't. 24 Q: You couldn't because his -- 25 A: Body was in the way.
2201 Q: -- body was in the wa -- in the gap - 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- of the door? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And so -- and at this stage, 6 are you stopped? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And so is it -- at that 9 stage then that the Military officer being, I take it, 10 pinned in the door by you trying to close the door, is 11 that when he used the pepper spray? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. So you're sitting in the 14 driver's seat, you're trying to close the door, passenger 15 door, you've got the officer pinned in the door, right? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And he's then using spr -- pepper 18 spray on you at that stage? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes. And what then happened? How 21 did -- how did you move to the nex -- what's the next 22 moment or event? He's spraying you with pepper, he's 23 pinned in the door, you're trying to hold him pinned I 24 take it, in the door? 25 A: I just give up on trying to close the
2211 door. 2 Q: Okay. And did the door then fully 3 open? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And -- and is that when you moved out 6 of the bus? 7 A: Not immediately after that happened. 8 I -- I had had my head turned away from him. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: And it was only a few seconds or 11 whatever, but it was just paused for a little while. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. All right, and -- and then 13 did the officer come in to the bus, proceed into the bus? 14 A: No, he -- I think he asked me to exit 15 the bus. 16 Q: Okay. And is that -- did you respond 17 to that request by exiting the bus? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. All right, and then -- 20 and you say on the way out of the bus he's standing at 21 the doorway? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you kick at him, but you don't -- 24 you're not sure whether you actually strike him with your 25 foot?
2221 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And does he then try and 3 take physical control of you, does he try to seize you? 4 A: Not immediately that moment, no. 5 Q: Okay, so you -- you either kick him 6 or attempt to kick him on the way out of the door, what 7 happens -- what's the next moment, what happens then? 8 A: He's standing approximately five (5) 9 feet away from the doorway of the bus. 10 Q: And how far is he from you? 11 A: The same amount. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And I -- I just proceeded to walk 14 away from him with my back to his face, and then he 15 tripped me. 16 Q: I see. You still didn't want to be 17 arrested, I take it? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Yeah. And so he -- you say he 20 basically took your feet out from under you, did he, with 21 his foot? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And that's when the struggle 24 occurred? 25 A: Yes.
2231 Q: Right. And it was a physical 2 struggle with him? 3 A: Well, at -- he -- when I was walking 4 away from him -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- he just kicked my foot and got 7 enough so my foot would trip on my other foot and I fell 8 down and that made me angry or whatever, so I got up off 9 the ground real fast and went towards him. 10 Q: I see, so you -- he didn't come 11 towards you, you went towards him? 12 A: Yes, after he tripped me. 13 Q: All right. And that's when the 14 physical confrontation with him actually occurred? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And did he -- did he, in 17 the course of that, or at the end of that physical 18 confrontation, did he take control of you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did he have -- no? He never took 21 control of you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You -- what did you break away? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right. And -- and did you then leave
2241 so he couldn't take physical control of you? Did you -- 2 A: Then I just walked away. 3 Q: You walked away. All right. Now, 4 while this was going on with the MP that you struggled 5 with him, was the -- was it at that time that the 6 forklift driven by Lincoln Jackson, came through the 7 doors from the inside of the drill hall? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And did you see anybody 10 try to apprehend him? 11 A: Possibly. 12 Q: And try -- and spray him with or 13 attempt to spray him with pepp -- pepper spray, in the 14 course of trying to apprehend him? 15 A: Possibly. 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: The part that I did see though, like 18 it was for brief moments at a time, because whenever I'd 19 open my eyes they would sting more and it would -- it 20 helped if you just kept them closed with the pepper spray 21 in there. 22 But I did see parts here and there, and I 23 didn't -- and I did see the forklift go through that 24 door. 25 Q: Okay. And did you see Lincoln
2251 Jackson escape or attempt to escape from being 2 apprehended by the MP's? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No? You don't know one (1) way or 5 the other whether he did? Whether he was apprehended or 6 whether he escaped, or do you? 7 A: I know now, but I didn't know then. 8 Q: Right. Now, as this is going on, I 9 gather there's a host of other, many other occupiers, 10 who've arrived on the scene from the car -- from the 11 various cars that have driven in? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there was a crowd gathering 14 around the area, isn't that right? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Yeah. And you -- when you left the 17 MP, you joined that crowd, didn't you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And you say you were then 20 struggling with the effect of the pepper spray? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. And I gather what you tell Ms. 23 Hensel is you don't remember what was being said by the 24 crowd to the MP's? 25 A: No. I was concentrating on getting
2261 my eyeballs so I could see. 2 Q: Now, as I understand it, you say that 3 you were then assisted with -- with washing the pepper 4 spray out of your eye by some of the other occupiers who 5 had -- came in the vehicles and had some water with them? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Right. And did you note in that time 8 frame, that is from the time you drove the bus in and 9 yourself -- you, yourself were pepper sprayed, that -- 10 and thereafter within the next, let's say, hour that 11 there was other occupiers who'd also been pepper sprayed? 12 Did you -- did you realize that or note 13 that? 14 A: I was told that by somebody about the 15 -- there was one (1) other person that -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- he got pepper sprayed. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Or one (1) other person that got it 20 bad, I should say, because I don't know for other people 21 could have got, like, small amounts of it from that over- 22 spray. 23 Q: And then you say that -- that there 24 was a meeting, this is after this event that occurred 25 with the bus and you've now melded into the crowd, that
2271 there was then a meeting in the Parade Square with two 2 (2) groups, the occupiers being one (1) group and 3 whatever Military people being another group. 4 And you call it a confrontation of these 5 two (2) groups yelling or -- at one another? 6 A: That was immediately after probably 7 had the confrontation with the MP. 8 Q: It wasn't immediately after? 9 A: It was immediately after. 10 Q: Immediately after? I see. Okay. 11 And that confron -- did that confrontation, as you've 12 described it, in the Parade Square, go on for some time? 13 A: Not to my knowledge. 14 Q: You don't -- do you know how long it 15 went on? What's you -- 16 A: Not very long at all. 17 Q: All right. And it -- was that then 18 where there was discussion about the occupiers taking 19 some buildings and the Military occupying other 20 buildings? 21 A: That discussion didn't come until 22 they got into the meeting area. 23 Q: And that was the meeting area in the 24 chapel? 25 A: Yes.
2281 Q: All right. And do you recall that in 2 that meeting the occupiers were told that they could 3 occupy the two (2) chapels in the officers' mess? 4 A: I don't recall the buildings but I 5 recall the one -- the officers' mess. 6 Q: Yes. All right. And you say that it 7 took you, sorry, how long; an hour or two (2) to recover 8 from the effects of the pepper spray? 9 A: Two (2) to three (3). 10 Q: Two (2) to three (3) hours? And was 11 it before or after you'd recovered, that you went around 12 and kicked in the doors of some of the barracks? 13 A: After. 14 Q: After? 15 A: The same with the meeting. The 16 meeting held with the -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- Army, that was after the effects 19 of my pepper spray weared off. 20 Q: Okay. So we know that -- that you -- 21 you went through the gate at about 1:30 in the afternoon, 22 so we're now talking about -- we're now talking about 23 3:30 to 4:30; right? 24 A: Approximately. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall during the
2291 course of the meetings or following the meeting that two 2 (2) negotiators or I think may be described as 3 peacekeepers, arrived to assist in resolving the -- the 4 conflict between the Military on the one (1) side and the 5 occupiers on the other, that being Bob Anton and Bruce 6 Elijah? 7 Do you remember them arriving? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? Do you know who they are? 10 A: I know who they are now. I didn't 11 then. 12 Q: And you don't recall seeing people in 13 that role that you didn't know at the time? That you 14 didn't know who they were but did you -- did you note 15 that there were two (2) individuals that had arrived to 16 discuss between the occupiers on the one (1) hand and 17 the -- 18 A: No, I didn't make a note of it. 19 Q: -- the military? No? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Let me tell you that the -- that the 22 military reports show, and this is Document 7000341 of 23 the -- of this event that Mr. Elijah and Mr. Anton 24 arrived at about 7:30 that evening; do you remember where 25 you were at about 7:30 or as we're getting about
2301 dinnertime or a little after dinnertime? 2 A: No, I don't remember. But I know 3 that when I -- when I attended that meeting between -- 4 between the Army there to negotiate the barracks -- 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: -- I know that I wasn't there for the 7 beginning of the meeting or the end of it. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I just showed up and just overheard 10 what I needed to overhear and took off. 11 Q: And then that's when you took off and 12 -- and were exploring the barracks, kicking down the 13 doors to see what was there? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And did you hear in that 16 meeting that the occupiers say that they had no intention 17 of leaving the built-up area, say that to the Military? 18 A: Meaning the Military? 19 Q: Yeah. Telling the Military they had 20 no intention of leaving; do you remember that being said 21 to the Military? 22 A: No, I don't remember. 23 Q: No? Do you remember in the meetings 24 that -- that Glen George was -- appeared to be or was 25 acting as the leader of the group of occupiers?
2311 A: No, I don't remember that? 2 Q: You don't remember that? 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. 4 Roland, for the record, could you indicate which George 5 you were referring to, did you say Glenn George? 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. Yes. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: Do you remember at the meeting, the 10 occupiers telling the Military that there were more young 11 First Nation males that were going to be arriving and 12 joining the group of occupiers; do you remember that 13 being said to the Military? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Do you remember that being -- do you 16 remember having that knowledge that more were coming? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No? 19 A: I can make it a little bit simpler 20 for you too, that the -- the only part of that meeting 21 there that I caught that I just popped up in that meeting 22 there and found out that the officers' mess was given to 23 us, my group, or whatever, you know, people. 24 Q: Hmm, hmm. 25 A: And it was pretty much, just heard
2321 that and left. 2 Q: The Military report indicates that -- 3 that a number of the occupiers were beginning to drink 4 alcoholic beverages during the evening; did you see any - 5 - any of that? 6 That the occupiers consu -- having or 7 consuming alcohol during the evening? 8 A: No. Not that I recall. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Right, you -- you were asked by Mr. 13 Rosenthal about an incident that occurred in June of '95 14 involving the bus and you were moving a large warning 15 sign -- or warning signs? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were -- you did that, I 18 gather, with Nicholas Cotrelle? 19 A: Yes, but the only reason why I 20 remember that is because I heard him say that there, yes 21 -- a couple of days ago. 22 Q: Yeah, that -- that sparked your 23 memory; did it? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And that was you and he
2331 driving the bus and removing the two (2) warning signs 2 and loading them into the bus and then taking them to 3 burn them? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And he agreed in the 6 course of his evidence, and I want to make sure you agree 7 with it as well, that you were -- while that was going on 8 while you put the signs in the bus that a Military patrol 9 vehicle came upon you or saw you and you saw it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that -- were you driving the bus, 12 do you recall or was Nicholas driving the bus? 13 A: I was. 14 Q: All right. And that you turned the 15 bus towards the patrol vehicle and drove towards it. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: He told us about that and you agree 18 with that? And the Military report says that the -- that 19 in this incident that -- that you driving the bus as 20 you've told us, made an attempt to collide with the 21 vehicle. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You did that? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And why did you do that?
2341 A: Well, -- 2 Q: Why did you attempt to collide with-- 3 A: The first -- first of all, the -- the 4 range patrol -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- the vehicle -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- it was at least two hundred (200) 9 plus feet away from us when I saw it. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And it was still two hundred (200) 12 feet away from us when I tried to get the bus moving as 13 fast as I could towards it. 14 Q: So you're saying although you 15 attempted to collide with it -- 16 A: There was no way that was going to 17 happen. 18 Q: -- you weren't going to be able to 19 achieve that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Unless of course the -- the 22 military vehicle didn't try to -- to avoid the collision? 23 A: Yeah. Yes. 24 Q: And what you're saying is that 25 although you tried to do it, it was apparent to you that
2351 the Military vehicle could avoid the collision? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it did avoid the collision? 4 A: Yes. By a large amount of space too. 5 Q: Yeah. I underst -- okay, my question 6 is -- but why did you do this? Why did you even try? 7 What was in your mind? Why were you -- what were you 8 attempting to achieve? 9 A: To bully the Army around. 10 Q: I see. To bully the Army around? I 11 see. And you mean by that to -- to intimidate them? 12 A: To intimidate them. 13 Q: And why did you want to do that? 14 A: They've been doing it to our people 15 for years. I figure I might as well return the favour. 16 Q: I'm sorry? 17 A: Might as well return the favour. 18 Q: I see. So this is a kind of 19 retaliation for what you saw is them, the Military 20 bullying others? 21 A: I never saw it. Hear about it. Read 22 about it. 23 Q: I see. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 think the record should be corrected. He didn't speak
2361 about others. He said bullying our people. So it's not 2 others in general, it's retaliation with respect to -- 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's fine. That's 4 what I meant. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, okay, thank you. 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: When I -- I don't think 7 we misunderstood ourselves on that at all. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: All right. And the Military report 11 also shows that -- that either you or Nicholas Cotrelle 12 left the bus and threw a large camp flashlight at the 13 patrol vehicle. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you recall doing that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And was it you or 18 Nicholas that did that? 19 A: It was me. 20 Q: Okay. And did you do it for the same 21 reason you -- you just told us you tried to collide with 22 the Military vehicle? 23 A: Yep. 24 Q: Now, in addition, the Military 25 report, and this is Document 7000292, indicates that on
2371 June 21,'95, this would be a couple of days before the 2 incident we've just talked about with the signs in the 3 bus, that the bus was then used at about 12:36 a.m. 4 That's a half an hour after midnight or 5 so, on June 21st, by some five (5) or six (6) male 6 occupiers to drive into the built-up area and drive 7 around it, in the course of that attempting to ram a 8 patrol vehicle around building 18. 9 A: What's the question? 10 Q: Were you in the bus at that time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You weren't part of -- part of that? 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us that you 15 had a dirt bike that you used to ride around the Army 16 Base at some stage before the occupation of the barracks; 17 is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And there's a report in the databank 20 of documents from the Ministry of Natural Resources, it's 21 Document 1008080 dated May 27, '95, and it talks about a 22 -- it refers to it as: 23 "A Native individual driving 24 motorcycles on the Military sand 25 dunes."
2381 And it describes a patrol officer, it 2 appears from the Ministry of Natural Resources, giving a 3 description of: 4 "One (1) Native on a quad runner and 5 one (1) on a motorcycle confronting 6 children and this officer during a 7 brief encounter near Campsite 201. And 8 during that encounter the Ministry of 9 Natural Resources officer and children 10 were told --" Sorry, "-- the -- the 11 Native individuals, one (1) of them 12 riding a motorbike, was told a -- a 13 camper and children, that they, the 14 camper, were on Indian land and -- and 15 that they, the Natives" -- 16 It's hard to read. 17 -- "should or -- or would shoot their 18 heads off, and also were told to get 19 off their land." 20 Do you -- were you -- do you recall that 21 incident? Were you the person on the motorbike who told 22 some camper -- a camper, it's a male camper and his 23 children, they were on Indian land and to get off, and 24 they'd shoot their heads off? 25 A: No.
2391 Q: No? That wasn't you? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Or you don't recall that? Okay. So, 4 that incident occurred -- I'm reading the report to get 5 it accurate. The report stated May 27, '95, but the 6 incident on the report indicates it occurred between 7 11:00 and 11:30 p.m. on Friday, May 26th, '95. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That was it, I think. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Ross -- Scullion...? 11 OBJ MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My objection is the 12 same -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Same 14 objection as you -- 15 MR KEVIN SCULLION: -- as it was this 16 morning. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- made 18 before. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He's reading on and 20 then presumably thought he hadn't heard, so it read it on 21 again. Now we've got a date and a time and the Witness 22 still has not been there and knows nothing about it. 23 My objection is to the process, I think My 24 Friend knows -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. If
2401 you give him enough information that he can at least 2 indicate that he was there or not. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, that's what I'm 4 trying to do, is I'm giving enough indication to see if 5 he remembers it. And given that it's -- 6 THE WITNESS: I remember my point of view 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- some ten (10) ago -- 8 THE WITNESS: -- very clearly, just not 9 what you have on your paper, there. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: I remember my point of view very 14 clearly, just not what you have on that paper, there. 15 Q: Okay. Well, what was your point of 16 view? You remember an incident, I take it? 17 A: It was a range control vehicle that 18 pulled up to us -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- when we were in his parking lot 21 and he had told us that we were trespassing and we should 22 leave. And then they asked us if we were visiting 23 anybody, any of the occupiers of the Camp, and then -- 24 Q: Sorry, the campers -- 25 A: Yes.
2411 Q: -- campers in the Park or occupiers 2 in the -- in the Army Camp? 3 A: Army Camp. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And they -- they asked us if we had 6 any permission from the occupiers and asked us who we 7 knew. I didn't give up any of that information and -- 8 and basically just listened what they said and ignored 9 them, and run away. 10 Q: And this was when you were on your -- 11 on your motorbike? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there was -- was there another 14 First Nations fellow -- 15 A: Yes, there was another person. 16 Q: -- on a quad runner? 17 A: No. A three (3) wheeler. Three (3) 18 wheels. 19 Q: I see. Three (3) wheels, not four 20 (4) wheels? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Maybe he wasn't a First Nations 24 person. Like, he was just my friend. 25 Q: Okay. Now, you were asked about --
2421 about an accident that occurred in which you've told us 2 that you'd been -- you'd been hitching a ride up to the 3 barracks from the beach. And the two (2) people who you 4 hitched the ride with, who were in the front seat of the 5 vehicle, unfortunately were killed in the accident. 6 And you were asked did you -- were you 7 provided with any medical treatment for you injuries. 8 You've told us your injuries were minor. 9 Were you asked if you wanted medical 10 treatment? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I gather you declined medical 13 treatment? 14 A: Yes. Because I felt that my injuries 15 weren't big enough. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, finally, let me take 17 you to September the 7th, '95, because you told Ms. 18 Hensel that you -- you went -- you got a ride to the Army 19 Camp, and you went from the Army Camp to the Park, where 20 you talked to some friends. 21 And then you went down East Parkway Drive 22 to the parking lot with some -- with a friend? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You don't recall who that friend was? 25 A: No.
2431 Q: No. And why did you go down to the 2 east parking lot -- to the east drive -- to the -- to the 3 Ministry parking lot? 4 A: To see what type of abandonments the 5 police left behind. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: For instance, those bullet casings I 8 seen on the ground before there, and/or other garbage 9 that they had left around there. 10 Q: So this was curiosity on your part 11 was it? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And you say you saw 14 bullet casings. Can you tell us in what location you saw 15 the bullet casings? There's a -- behind you there's a 16 diagram. 17 Do you know the number of that? That's P- 18 23 as the exhibit. 19 It's the -- it's the intersection of Army 20 Camp Road and East Parkway. Can you tell us on that 21 where you saw the bullet casings? 22 A: Yes. Right -- right all along here. 23 And right there. 24 Q: All right. And could -- could you 25 mark on that for us --
2441 A: I -- I would like to point out too 2 that there could have been -- they could have been 3 collected beforehand, and the ones that I seen were 4 leftovers. 5 Q: I -- I understand all that. I just 6 want to know what you saw and -- and where you saw it. 7 And so, if you could take a pen which is on the table in 8 front of you, would you mark the location of where you 9 saw the bullet casings on Exhibit P-23. 10 Sorry. There's a -- sorry, I've been 11 asked if you'd use the black marker. There's apparently 12 a black marker there. Thank you. 13 A: How big -- how big of a area you want 14 me to -- 15 Q: Well, just -- just cover -- just do a 16 circle or whatever, or a line, around the area that you 17 saw them. 18 A: (INDICATING). 19 Q: All right. Okay. And can you put a 20 "1" beside that, please. 21 A: (INDICATING). 22 Q: All right. And is there any -- now, 23 is there any other location where you saw bullet casings? 24 A: Not that I -- not that I can recall. 25 Q: No? All right. Now, in that area
2451 that you've marked as "1", tell us approximately how many 2 bullet casings you saw? 3 A: At a glance, twenty (20). 4 Q: Okay. About twenty (20)? 5 A: Yeah. That's why I was led to 6 believe that a bunch of them were cleaned up and they 7 were leftovers. 8 Q: I see. You thought that -- 9 A: Because I knew they -- they shot off 10 a lot more than that. 11 Q: You heard that, had you? 12 A: No. I heard that from other people. 13 Q: That's what I mean, you heard it from 14 other people? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah. We know you weren't there on 17 the 6th, but you heard from other people that they told 18 you that there was a lot of shots fired -- 19 A: All of them at once. 20 Q: -- and when you saw approximately 21 twenty (20) in the location you marked, you assumed that 22 that couldn't be all of them? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And did you look for 25 bullet casings in any other locations?
2461 A: I think so. 2 Q: And you didn't see any? 3 A: I couldn't be sure whether or not I 4 did. 5 Q: Okay. And about what time of day on 6 the 7th was it that you saw these bullet casings in the 7 location you've marked on P-23? 8 A: After noon. 9 Q: 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, around? Give us 10 your best estimate. 11 A: Between 2:00 and 4:00. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. 13 Sorry. We'll mark this then, which -- 14 which I've described in the record as P-23 is actually 15 the -- the unmarked exhibit. We'll now give the one that 16 the witness has marked an exhibit number. And it would 17 be? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-138. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: P-138. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-138: "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 22 Sept 20/95, Marked by Witness 23 Harley George, January 20/051. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
2471 Q: Now, at the time that you observed 2 these bullet casings, did you also observe sticks and 3 rocks and so on in that area, in the roadway or sandy 4 parking lot? 5 Did you notice that the -- the ground was 6 covered by rocks and sticks and things from the night 7 before? 8 A: No. I think somebody cleaned them 9 up. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. Those are my 11 questions. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much, Mr. Roland. Mr. Downard...? 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 16 Q: Sir, my name is Peter Downard and I 17 act for the former Ontario Premier Mike Harris. And I 18 just have a -- a small number of questions for you. 19 Now, you described how when you drove the 20 bus onto the Parade Square, you pulled up to the rec. 21 centre or drill hall door and you did that slowly, and 22 you began to push in the -- the door with the bus; right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Why were you trying to push in 25 the door to the drill hall with the bus?
2481 A: Act of retaliation. 2 Q: The same sort of reasons that you 3 gave Mr. Roland for attempting to collide with the 4 Military vehicle on the other occasion? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And after you attempted to push in 7 the rec. centre door with the bus and then you backed up 8 and you -- you pushed back the Military vehicle for the 9 reasons that you gave before, and -- and then you got 10 arrested. After all of this happens and in the following 11 days, did one (1) or more of your parents ever talk to 12 you about what you had done? 13 And by -- by what you had done, I mean 14 your driving into the drill hall door and then backing up 15 into the Military vehicle and having the altercation with 16 Military police. 17 A: Can you rephrase the question? 18 Q: Yeah, sure. Did -- in the days 19 following this event, days or weeks following, did one 20 (1) of your parents ever talk to you about what you had 21 done in driving into the drill hall door and back up into 22 the Military vehicle and getting into the altercation 23 with Military Police? 24 A: No, I don't think they knew 25 everything that I had done.
2491 Q: Did any of the older people among the 2 occupying group at the Army Camp talk to you about what 3 you had done in the days or weeks following? 4 A: Possibly. 5 Q: But do you recall? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And you have referred to Lincoln 8 Jackson, I believe, with the forklift, trying to force 9 open the -- the rec centre door. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: On the basis of what you knew about 12 what was going on that day, did you have any 13 understanding as to why he was doing that? 14 A: That it was, as far as I knew, it was 15 the same reason as my -- my own. 16 Q: Retaliation? 17 A: Yes. But I can't speak for other 18 people. 19 Q: I'm not asking you to. I was just 20 asking if you -- if you had any understanding at -- at 21 the time. 22 Now, in your evidence earlier -- to move 23 to a different subject -- you said that in the summer of 24 1995, I believe, you had gone into the land that was 25 being used for the Provincial Park with friends who had
2501 pointed out burial sites; do you recall that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Who were those friends? 4 A: I can't recall. 5 Q: And you also talked about your having 6 gone to the Park on September 6th and people were 7 socializing there. And you don't recall everything that 8 you did when you were there but you recall visiting and 9 talking to other people and finding out what was going 10 on? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you recall what the people you 13 spoke to told you as far as what was going on was 14 concerned? 15 A: No. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thanks very much, 17 sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. Mr. Ross... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just a couple of wrap- 24 up matters. 25
2511 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 2 Q: Mr. George, in 1995 when these things 3 happened at the Camp, by my calculation you were fifteen 4 (15) years, around nine and half (9 1/2) months old; 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yes. Could you perhaps explain to 8 the Commissioner how come somebody still under sixteen 9 (16) would have that much rage in them as -- as your 10 evidence has demonstrated? 11 What was happening on the reserve? Why is 12 it that you and a lot of other young people were getting 13 involved in such activities? 14 A: My eyes, they were the trespassers. 15 They were the bad guys. 16 Q: Is it fair to say then that they were 17 part of your perceived outstanding grievances and this 18 was your approach in addressing them? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: If the Commissioner has got to -- if 21 he's to try to help and make sure these things don't 22 happen in the future, what could you tell him about, you 23 know, -- 24 A: Give the land back. Plain and 25 simple.
2521 Q: I see. I see. And even after the 2 land has been given back, is it your view that this would 3 satisfy all of the concerns and there will be no more 4 need for this level of rage? 5 A: Yes. 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you very much, 7 Mr. George. Those are my questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 9 Hensel...? 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I have no 11 questions for re-examination. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No re-exam. 13 Thank you, that concludes our day. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: The Witness is 15 free -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We are done 17 now? 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much then, Mr. George. Do you want to thank him? 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, Thank you, 22 Mr. George for your time and I also have a few brief 23 announcements for Counsel who are here. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, just 25 before you do that. I want to thank you for coming and
2531 giving us your evidence and you're finished now. You can 2 leave. Thank you very much. 3 4 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 5 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Just for all 7 Counsel for the parties who are present, I understand 8 that some people haven't received the outlines and lists 9 of documents that have been circulated electronically 10 over the last couple of days. 11 I'll be sending all of those out again 12 from my Justice e-mail account on Monday. So you should 13 receive them all, for Gina and Glen George in particular, 14 if you haven't already. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we 16 reconvene on Monday, January 31st at 10:30 a.m. Thank 17 you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 19 adjourned until Monday, January 31st, at 10:30 a.m. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 3:41 p.m. 22 23 24 25
2541 2 3 4 5 Certified Correct 6 7 8 9 10 ___________________ 11 Wendy Warnock 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25