11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 19th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 24 Maureen Smith ) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) (np) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Annie Leeks ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan Mackey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 NICHOLAS ABRAHAM COTTRELLE, Sworn 6 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 7 8 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 38 9 10 TINA RENE GEORGE; Sworn 11 12 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 51 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 238 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-129 2 Photographs, September 07/95 4 1) 15-0A, 2) 15.3A plus CD-Rom. 41 5 P-130 Copy of Maintenance Building Tape 6 number 001- September 5 to 6, 7 1995, from 2109 hours to 0300 8 hours. Produced by the Ontario 9 Provincial Police, Anti-Rackets 10 Section, Evidence Management Unit. 202 11 P-131 Photograph depicting witness 12 and others together with Officer 13 Eves. 236 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Mr. Ross, I think you're up. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cottrelle. 13 A: Good morning. 14 Q: I will address a couple of matters 15 raised by Ms. Tuck-Jackson as well as Mr. Roland and Ms. 16 McAleer. I will start however with Mr. Roland. He 17 proceeded to walk you through what I understand was your 18 arrest chronology. And that's where I would take you 19 also. 20 He first spoke to you about when you got 21 in the ambulance and a police officer was with you; do 22 you recall discussing that with him? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that police officer was Boone. 25 That's the name that he used and I suggest to you accept
81 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. Now, when you were in the 4 ambulance, it is suggested by Mr. Roland that Officer 5 Boon read you your rights? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, that was a suggestion. Do you 8 recall him actually reading you your rights? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you recall him telling you that 11 you were under arrest? 12 A: No. 13 Q: I see. So you're in the ambulance; 14 and I would like you to explain to the Commissioner what 15 happened as between yourself and the police officer from 16 the time you got into the ambulance until you reached the 17 hospital. 18 First thing, how many police officers were 19 in the ambulance with you? 20 A: One (1). 21 Q: Apart from the police officer in the 22 ambulance, was there an attendant there also? 23 A: I believe so, yes. 24 Q: So, you -- it was just not you and 25 the police officer, it would be you, him and probably an
91 -- an attendant? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was there any questioning as you 4 travelled from where you boarded the ambulance to the 5 hospital? 6 A: Not that I can remember. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: Not that I can remember. 9 Q: Okay. And then you got to the 10 hospital, and I understand -- first, in reading to you 11 from one (1) of the reports, Mr. Roland read -- and it 12 appears at page 258 of the transcript -- and he's -- he 13 was telling you about an officer, he says: 14 "And he's apparently going to testify 15 that he" -- 16 That you said you understood when asked if 17 you wished to call a lawyer, you replied: 18 "Well, obviously, I can't now." 19 Do you recall that discussion? 20 A: No. 21 Q: It goes on, he says: 22 "And he is going to say" -- 23 That's the police officer, that because 24 you were a young offender he advised you of a right to 25 have a parent, guardian or other responsible adult during
101 any question -- any questioning, and you replied: 2 "Yes." 3 Do you recall that discussion? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And, as a matter of fact, being in 6 the ambulance, it would be ridiculous for you to expect 7 to be able to make a phone call. And your parents were 8 excluded from the trip to the hospital; am I correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then, at the hospital, Mr. Roland 11 indicated that we pick up with Constable Carolyn Kennedy. 12 You remember a second police officer, a woman, at -- 13 dealing with you at the hospital? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: I see. So, anyway, that's two (2) 16 police officers. The first one you remember going in the 17 ambulance with you but the second one you don't remember. 18 It says later that about three o'clock you 19 were visited by Ron, Reg, Bob, and Warren George; do you 20 remember Ron George visiting about three o'clock in the 21 morning? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And who was Reg? 24 A: That would be Dudley's brother. 25 Q: And who was Bob?
111 A: Could have been Nobby, Rob George. 2 Q: That's Ron George's father? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And Warren George? 5 A: Would be a cousin of mine. 6 Q: Yeah. Now, at the time of this 7 visit, did you call Ron George to visit you? 8 A: I can't remember. I don't think so. 9 Q: Yeah. But, in any event, with Ron 10 George being there, was he there as a visitor or did you 11 have him there as your lawyer? 12 A: A visitor. 13 Q: And then he claims, Mr. Roland put to 14 you that around -- around 4:23, that another police 15 officer was involved, an Ident. officer by the name of 16 Evans (phonetic). 17 Did you remember anybody introducing 18 themselves to you as Officer Evans? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So, this is now police officer number 21 3, and we are down to 4:23 in the morning. And as far as 22 Evans is concerned, you indicated that -- excuse me. Mr. 23 Roland suggested that Constable Kennedy's statement 24 indicated that she observed you consent to a test. That 25 was for this gunshot residue. Do you recall that?
121 A: No. 2 Q: And you in -- your response was that 3 you were sleeping. Now what I want to get to here is, 4 there's also suggestion that they could only test your 5 left hand because your right hand was bandaged. Do you 6 reme -- recall that discussion yesterday? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now would your right hand have been 9 bandaged? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: Now when you were driving the bus, 12 the night before, was your right hand bandaged? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And so then I would suggest that if 15 we take a look at your and I don't want to go through the 16 full medical records, Mr. Commissioner, but there's 17 something here that I think is of interest. I ask you to 18 look under Tab 8, have you got your book handy? Have you 19 got Tab 8, those are the medical records? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Five (5) pages in is the heading 22 History and Physical Examination. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Cottrelle, yours 24 is probably double sided so it's the 5th -- it's 25 actually --
131 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Two and a half pages 2 in. The third page. Is it headed --- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's titled -- the 4 second page of yours on the other side. He's got it. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's it I think. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 9 Q: Is it headed History and Physical 10 Examinations? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now if you come down you can see it 13 started Number 1 History of Chief Complainant. Then 14 physical examination and then it's CBS -- sorry, chest, 15 CBS, abdomen and now extremities. I make -- interested in 16 the extremities. It says here: 17 "Arms and legs normal in tone and 18 strength." 19 Now this would be consistent with your 20 understanding of your condition. No need for bandages. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And over two (2) pages is a 23 handwritten document marked Consultation Report, 24 September 8th, 1995. And have you got that document? 25 A: Yes.
141 Q: It says down near the bottom, 2 extremities uninjured. 3 A: Yes, I see that. 4 Q: And two (2) pages over is another 5 handwritten document headed "Progress Notes", you got 6 that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And just before the date September 9 7th it says: 10 "A wound more consistent with shattered 11 glass than bullet." 12 Q: You see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. But in any event no effort was 15 made to remove the bullet, you were just patched up and 16 sent out. But maybe it was the glass, you were patched up 17 and sent out. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So that as far as you're concerned, 20 when you were at the hospital and you were being 21 photographed, the photographs that were taken was all of 22 the obvious physical injuries. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
151 A: Yes. 2 Q: So that if there were in fact 3 injuries to your hand, you -- you can't recall at this 4 time? 5 A: No, I can't. 6 Q: Now that's -- that takes us up to 7 approximately 4:23 a.m. And at 4:37 it is said that your 8 mother and your grandmother visited you. Do you recall 9 your mother and grandmother visiting you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: And do you recall making any 14 telephone calls from the hospital? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Now, during the time you were in the 17 hospital, did you always have police presence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So, as far as just going through very 20 quickly on the police officers, first there's police 21 officer number 1 when you are -- when you're taken into 22 the ambulance; police officer number 2, Carolyn Kennedy 23 (phonetic) when you're at the hospital; police officer 24 number 3, Officer Evans from the Ident Department and -- 25 and later on you were taken by two (2) more police
161 officers to the back of the hospital and onto Strathroy 2 Detachment? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you recall at any time asking the 5 police officers to call Ron George for you as your 6 lawyer? 7 A: Later -- later on in the evening. 8 Q: Later on in the evening? Now, as far 9 as the sequence is concerned, you see, Mr. Roland took 10 you through the -- the narrative as he -- as -- as it's 11 called and we know that he speaks to the police documents 12 and he says, as you say, that at about 4:25 p.m., at Page 13 8, he entered the room and took possession of your 14 effects. 15 Do you remember a police officer entering 16 the room and taking your clothing and other things? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you get the clothing back? 19 A: Months down the road. 20 Q: Months after? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So, how -- what -- what were dressed 23 in when you left the hospital? 24 A: Just my hospital clothes, a gown and 25 kind of like a bib -- a hospital bib, a shirt.
171 Q: I see. Did they take your underwear? 2 A: Pardon me? 3 Q: Did the police take your underwear? 4 A: I can't remember if they did or not. 5 Q: I see, but they took, like, your 6 slacks, took your shoes -- 7 A: And my -- 8 Q: -- and your shirt? 9 A: -- shirt, yeah. 10 Q: And it goes on, it is after they have 11 taken your possessions that you were taken to the 12 interrogation centre and the -- the interrogation room? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And at that point is when that 15 statement, which appears under Tab 2, was given. Am I 16 correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: As far as this statement is 19 concerned, I would just like to clear up something. Was 20 that given as a statement -- sorry, why did you give that 21 statement? 22 A: I was told I wasn't able to leave 23 until I gave a statement. 24 Q: I see. So, as the sequence goes, 25 according to the chronology, you're picked up, police
181 presence all the time throughout the early morning of 2 September 7th. Correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And throughout the day of September 5 7th. Correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And into the night of September 7th. 8 Correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then you gave the statement under 11 the circumstances that you've indicated to the 12 Commissioner. Correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And after that statement was 15 given is when you had the opportunity to call Ron Jones? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, in the statement, which appears 18 under Tab 2, there's no mention of really what happened 19 down at the fight. Was there reason for that? 20 A: Yes, he quit writing when I got to 21 that part. 22 Q: I see. So, this statement really 23 reflects a portion of what you said to the police 24 officers rather than a full and complete statement? 25 A: Yes.
191 Q: Now, when the statement was given, 2 was it taken down by hand? 3 A: Yes, he had a -- a notepad. 4 Q: And do you know whether or not they 5 had tape-recording facilities, if it was also recorded? 6 A: I don't believe so. 7 Q: I see. Now, this statement, were you 8 asked to read it and sign it or they just took the 9 statement and -- and this is what you see as an end 10 result? 11 A: I believe I signed it. 12 Q: You believe you signed something? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. Now, I must take you back a 15 bit to -- to events before this, Mr. Cottrelle. Mr. 16 Roland discussed with you the idea of getting the bus, 17 somebody yelling get the bus; you recall that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And now, who had driven the bus down 20 to the Park earlier that evening; was it you or somebody 21 else? 22 A: Somebody else. 23 Q: So when they said, Get the bus, I 24 take it that nobody was speaking specifically to you? 25 A: No.
201 Q: So you went and you got the bus. 2 Now, there is some suggestion -- and your -- that it was 3 for retaliation. You -- your response was you couldn't 4 speak for somebody else. 5 Tell us about yourself. You hear somebody 6 yell, Get the bus. You go, you get in the bus and you 7 start it. Now, what is in your mind? Why were you 8 getting the bus? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry. My Friend 10 misstates the evidence. He didn't start it. He said it 11 was already running. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Very sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No intention to 15 misstate the evidence -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 17 That's fine. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 20 Q: So, the bus is there and it's 21 running? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 23 running. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25
211 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 2 Q: Get the bus. Now, you go into the 3 bus which is already running, and what is -- what is your 4 mind set? What are you proposing to do now that you got 5 into the bus? 6 A: To help Slippery. Bernard. 7 Q: And did you plan to help Slippery? 8 A: Just try to break the police up and 9 hope that the guys can get up there to help him. 10 Q: Thank you. Now, later on I expect 11 that when the SIU witnesses are back we'll be able to get 12 actual distances between the gateway and where the bus 13 stopped. 14 What is your best estimate, Mr. Cottrelle, 15 of the distance from where the bus exited the Park to 16 where it stopped just before that driveway? 17 A: A hundred and fifty (150) feet maybe. 18 Q: Yeah. And during that hundred and 19 fifty (150) feet you had to go -- come out -- come out of 20 the -- the Park, drive a distance, and be able to stop 21 within that distance? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So, at top speed how fast do you 24 think you were travelling? 25 A: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) kilometres
221 an hour. 2 Q: Yeah. And as far as the bus is 3 concerned, how many gears did it have? 4 A: Five (5) -- four (4) -- four (4) 5 gears and then it had one (1) -- the first gear was very 6 low. 7 Q: So, it had a very low first gear -- 8 A: Yeah. It's like -- 9 Q: -- and four (4) general driving 10 gears? 11 A: Yeah. The first gear is like a 12 creeper gear -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- it barely even moves. 15 Q: And how many -- can you recall how 16 many gear -- sorry. When you -- when you left the Park, 17 would it have been in the first gear, the creeper gear? 18 A: Yeah. Up until I pushed the dumpster 19 out of the way. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Because it was sitting in real loose 22 sand. 23 Q: So, you were in your creeper gear 24 because it was loose sand and up until you pushed the 25 dumpster away?
231 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then, what other gears would you 3 have transferred to? 4 A: Second, and probably close to when I 5 was ready to stop I might have put it in third. 6 Q: You put it to third when you were 7 ready to stop? 8 A: Yes, I -- I believe so. 9 Q: But, in any event, you weren't going 10 in excess of twenty (20) kilometres per hour? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And you were able to stop the vehicle 13 without really any major collision? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, when you were being transported 16 to the hospital, were you on a stretcher or on a gurney 17 of some kind? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And were you strapped down? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: But you were on your back? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So you're there, sixteen (16) years 24 of age on your back in a stretcher -- on a stretcher with 25 a police officer and no idea where he'll take -- you are
241 going. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: How did you find that experience? 4 A: I was -- I was pretty scared. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: In response to questioning by Mr. 9 Roland and I'll just go through the questions, it is at 10 page 286 -- sorry, 268 and 269 of the transcript. The 11 question was, I assume -- sorry, I'll back up -- at 12 around line 14: 13 "Now you told Mr. Millar on the 6th of 14 September that you gathered or you 15 might have gathered sticks and rocks 16 and moved them to along the fence line, 17 right? 18 And your answer was, Yeah. 19 The next question: 20 "And I -- I assumed the reason you did 21 this is you were anticipating that you 22 were going to need them for the purpose 23 of a fight , right? 24 Your answer: 25 "Yeah defending ourselves.
251 The next question: 2 "Yeah, these weapons -- sorry, these 3 were weapons that you were going to use 4 for the purpose of fighting somebody? 5 A: Defending our territory, yes." 6 Now what I'm getting at is there are two 7 (2) things. Now why you spoke about defending 8 yourselves? Now what would have triggered in your mind 9 the need to defend yourself? 10 A: The police buildup in the area. The 11 fact that they were evacuating cottages along West 12 Ipperwash. 13 Q: So is it fair to say that from the 14 time of the occupation of the built-up area in July, you 15 saw no need to be prepared to defend yourself until the 16 police activity on the 6th of September? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You further spoke about, Defending 19 our territory. Why were you saying, Defending our 20 territory? Exactly what land were you talking about in 21 your territory? 22 A: The Provincial Park as well as the 23 military -- the Military Base. 24 Q: Can you speak a little bit, sir. 25 A: Provincial Park as well as the
261 Military -- Military Base. 2 Q: I see. Now you indicated in direct 3 testimony to Mr. Millar that you had stayed after the -- 4 after the experience of the 6th and 7th of September 5 1995, you had pretty much stayed in the Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And Mr. Roland was good enough to 8 draw your attention to the hunting matter with yourself 9 and Kevin Simon. 10 A: Marlin. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: Marlin. 13 Q: Marlin Simon? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: With yourself and Marlin Simon, 16 sorry. Now were there other instances that you could 17 recall that you strayed from the -- the camp to the 18 built-up area? 19 A: Not that I can remember. 20 Q: And that hunting incident with Marlin 21 is there a reason why you didn't tell that to Mr. Millar? 22 A: I had forgotten about it. 23 Q: Thank you. Now Ms. McAleer was good 24 enough to address five (5) matters with you and I don't 25 propose to go through all five (5). At page 279 of the
271 transcript, she was speaking to you about burial sites. 2 And she said to you: 3 "Okay, well see, you are the first 4 witness to come forward and indicate that you have 5 specific information about burial sites on the road in 6 front of the maintenance shed. No other witness has 7 testified that to -- to that today." 8 So I -- I want to be fair to you, are 9 you absolutely certain that your 10 grandfather specifically referred to 11 that area and you answered, Yes, there 12 is no question." 13 The recorded exchange? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. Now, Mr. Commissioner, this is 16 something that perhaps I should have brought to your 17 attention, that the -- the transcript for October the 18 20th, pages 50 and 51, address this matter where the -- 19 the Witness indicated that there was -- I would just read 20 through: 21 "A video was being played --" 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps my Friend 23 could identify the witness for everyone and who was 24 testif -- whose evidence he's referring to, but I might 25 also ask my Friend if -- is there a question in this for
281 this Witness? This is -- he's referring to some earlier 2 testimony and perhaps he'll explain it to us, but the -- 3 I haven't heard any question. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, it 5 might very well not be a question, but it goes to what 6 was asked of the Witness and how it was put to him and 7 I'm just drawing to your attention that the question, as 8 put to the Witness, was not reflective of the evidence as 9 stated in the question. Okay? I -- I can just draw it - 10 - well, maybe it's something for argument at a later date 11 and that's fine. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 13 there's something for argument. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's fine. I can 15 deal with it in argument. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 17 how this Witness can help us in that respect. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, I wouldn't argue 19 that with you, Mr. Commissioner, because I can deal with 20 it later. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 22 mentioned October 20th, at Page 50 and 51, that's of our 23 transcript? 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes, of your 25 transcript. Yes.
291 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can take 2 a look at that. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And it will be helpful 4 at that time, you see, because we were looking at the 5 video and the video shows the area that we are -- you're 6 talking about, but the matter I'll deal with in argument. 7 Now, Mr. -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, if My Friend 9 wants to show -- if my Friend wants to clear something up 10 with the Witness, I have no -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- objection if he 13 wants to show the video to ask him a question, or if he 14 wants to ask him a question based on the transcript. My 15 point is, simply reading the transcript to the Witness 16 without a question, doesn't advance -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For my 18 benefit. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's saying 21 it's for my benefit, so I -- I agree with you. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, 23 there's no problem. I will just leave it up to Mr. 24 Millar when he's wrapping up. He can show him the video. 25 I think he understands what the problem is.
301 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I will clarify at the 3 break. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 6 Q: Now, tell me something, Mr. 7 Cottrelle. You indicated to Ms. McAleer that one (1) of 8 the purposes for occupying the Park was because of the 9 burial sites? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What were the other purposes? 12 A: That the way the Park was obtained by 13 MNR and the DND that I -- I -- everybody thought that it 14 wasn't right. 15 A: Yeah. Now, finally I want to deal 16 with what was referred to as a rock concert and I will 17 pass up a copy of -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Exhibit P-128. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, had you seen one (1) 25 of these flyers before now?
311 A: Yes. 2 Q: And let us just go through this flyer 3 for a minute. It says at the top, "In the ex-Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park," and it reads: 5 "Renegade Aazhoodena Jamboree, 1998 2nd 6 Annual" 7 Do ... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 12 just going to put that up on the screen for everyone's 13 benefit. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 18 Q: So now we've got the flyer on the 19 screen. I'll just start again. He says: 20 "In the Ex-Ipperwash Provincial Park, 21 Renegade Aazhoodena Jamboree, 1998 2nd 22 Annual." 23 Did you recall one (1) of these jamborees 24 before? 25 A: Yes.
321 Q: And were there any problems at that 2 first jamboree? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And where was the celebration -- 5 where was the jamboree held in relation to the -- to what 6 was the Provincial Park? 7 A: It'd be the northern -- northern end 8 of the Park, northwest. 9 Q: The northwest? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: That's just the extension of the 12 Sandy parking lot? 13 A: No, it's -- it was right beside 14 Matheson Drive, that end. 15 Q: The -- the -- 16 A: Matheson Drive, that'd be right on 17 the inside of the Park at Matheson Drive. 18 Q: I see, but that would be away from 19 the -- the area where there were burial sites? 20 A: Yes, the other end of the Park. 21 Q: The other end of the Park, yeah. And 22 it says here, Friday only, Thundermug. What's a 23 Thundermug? 24 A: It was a band. 25 Q: I see. So there was a band,
331 Thundermug on Friday, and were -- and these other four 2 (4), are those names of other bands? 3 A: Yes, from different Reserves. 4 Q: I see. Thundermug came from where? 5 A: London. 6 Q: And Out Numbered was from where? 7 A: London area too, I believe. 8 Q: Dust till Dawn from where? 9 A: Oneida First Nations. 10 Q: Electric Mistress? 11 A: Oneida First Nations. 12 Q: Heckel and Jeckel? 13 A: Walpole Island. 14 Q: Larry Bird and the Tweeters? 15 A: Sarnia Reserve. 16 Q: And then it continued to -- there 17 appears to be, something's blocked out, but it looks as 18 it would read. 19 "Food and Beverage available free." 20 Available, free something: 21 "Come and --" 22 There's a word that's missing, but it's 23 obvious that the next one (1) is, "Solidarity Day." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now tell us about Solidarity Day,
341 what was this? 2 A: It's a day for First Nations people 3 to celebrate their solidarity. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: Different Reserves have different 6 outings. 7 Q: Right. And it was on the bottom: 8 "Zero (0) tolerance on drunk driving 9 and stupidity." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the last part said what: 12 "Leave your attitude at home." 13 A: Yes. Ochimi G'wetch (phonetic). 14 Q: Ochimi G'wetch. I see. Holding this 15 jamboree down in the Park, why was this not offensive to 16 the presence of the burial sites? Explain to the 17 Commissioner? 18 A: Well, my own opinion, it was at a 19 totally different end of the Park and people were -- we 20 had a couple of meetings on what everybody felt about it. 21 We had, like, the whole community was -- we agree to have 22 the celebration on Solidarity Day. 23 Q: I see. Now, Mr. Cottrelle, those 24 are about the end of my questions, but I've got more to 25 just wrap-ups. Could you perhaps explain to the
351 Commissioner why you thought it necessary to be involved 2 in the occupation of those lands -- the Aazhoodena lands? 3 A: Myself, I felt -- I don't know how 4 you would say it, kind of an obligation towards my 5 grandfather. They moved off the territory and everything 6 I've done, I was rewarded with seeing my grandpa come 7 home and he passed away on his homeland and we buried him 8 on his homeland and I felt very strong about what I did, 9 having seen that. 10 Q: Now, as far as this occupation and 11 going into occupation even up at the range section is 12 concerned, were you trying to get property to be 13 transferred to your name, personally? 14 A: No. 15 Q: When you moved from the range to the 16 built-up area, were you trying to acquire those lands for 17 yourself? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And as far as what was Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park, were you trying to acquire those lands 21 for yourself? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Is it fair to say that this was part 24 of a bigger and a collective movement to bring attention 25 to what your people saw as outstanding matters to be
361 dealt with by Government? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, as far as the lands are 4 concerned, could you just describe just the borders of 5 the lands that we are talking about? 6 A: Like, measurements, kind of? 7 Q: No, just the -- just the -- the 8 roads. 9 A: Outer Drive. 10 Q: Outer Drive? 11 A: Up to Highway 21 -- 12 Q: Yeah? 13 A: -- and down Highway 21 to Army Camp 14 Road and right down to the lake. 15 Q: Yeah. Now, up in the northeast 16 corner by Outer Drive and Lake Huron, there's a section 17 that they call Port Franks. Do you know that area? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And my understanding is that there 20 are some private cottages within the lands you've 21 described up in that area. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, did you have any plans to move 24 into those cottage areas? 25 A: No.
371 Q: Now, with respect just to the 2 outstanding issues, with respect to government and how 3 you moved off the -- how your people moved off the land - 4 - is there anything else you'd like the Commissioner to 5 know? 6 A: I can't think of anything offhand. 7 Q: Okay. Now, let's just narrow it down 8 to the events from the 4th to the 7th of September 1995. 9 Now, this thing escalated and resulted in a lot of shots 10 being fired, somebody dead and people -- and other people 11 hurt. How could that have been avoided, in your view? 12 A: Deal with the -- the agreements that 13 was put in place between our people and the Government. 14 I feel that they weren't honoured and respected and when 15 things finally got some light shed on them, I feel that 16 the Government tried to hide them and this could have all 17 been avoided, I believe, if all the old agreements were 18 honoured. 19 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Cottrelle, 20 those are my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. Mr. Millar...? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 24 could just take thirty (30) seconds, I need to get 25 something that I don't have here.
381 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then I have a few 3 questions. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, I have a couple of 9 questions. 10 The first is, I'm just trying to 11 understand the -- how many gears were in the bus and the 12 gears that you used on the evening of September 6th. You 13 told My Friend, Mr. Roland, when he was asking you some 14 questions that there were three (3) lower gears than 15 there were higher -- than there were regular gears. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did this transmission have an 19 auxiliary transmission? How did it have three (3) lower 20 gears and then regular gears? 21 A: The -- the three (3) lower -- it had 22 five (5) altogether. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: The first gear was a creeper gear, it 25 was geared real low. Second gear is real low. Third is
391 fairly low. Then a fourth and a fifth, your fifth gear 2 would be, like, your cruising overdrive kind of deal. 3 Q: Okay. So, that it really had five 4 (5) gears, it's just that the first three (3) gears were 5 very low? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And so, you were in -- you 8 started in your -- 9 A: First. 10 Q: -- first gear, you used that to push 11 the dumpster away; that's what you told Mr. -- My Friend 12 Mr. Ross? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then you went into second and up 15 to third? 16 A: Yeah. By the time I stopped I would 17 have been going into third. 18 Q: Then the -- there's an -- an issue 19 has arisen about bandages on your right hand, which I 20 didn't appreciate was an issue until Mr. Roland raised 21 the issue and Mr. Ross then dealt with it. 22 But I would like to show you two (2) 23 photographs from the photograph collection. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
401 Q: And -- and I'll show you the 2 photograph in a moment. But do you recall when you went 3 to the hospital having an I -- an intravenous line 4 inserted in your -- on your body? 5 A: No, I don't 6 Q: And it's my understanding there was 7 but we'll deal with the medical chart with the medical 8 witnesses. But I want to show you a photograph -- 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: The photograph that I'm showing you 13 is a photograph, Mr. Cottrelle, taken on the 7th day of 14 September at the time the other photographs that we've 15 referred to yesterday were taken and this is identified 16 as Photograph 15-0A and you will see in your right hand a 17 small bandage. 18 And I've got another picture that I will 19 show you -- do rec -- you'll see there's a small bandage 20 on your right hand, do you recall that bandage, Mr. 21 Cottrelle? 22 A: No, I don't. I -- I don't remember. 23 Q: And if you don't remember I take it 24 you can't tell us how long that bandage -- when that 25 bandage was placed on your hand?
411 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: Perhaps we could mark as the next 3 exhibit and I'll have to create a CD rom for the 4 electronic versions, but there'll be two (2) photographs. 5 It's photograph ,15-0A and 15-3A and it would be Exhibit 6 P-129. 7 The Registrar: P-129, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-129: 2 Photographs, September 07/95 10 1) 15-0A, 2) 15.3A plus CD-Rom. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Then -- in response to a question by 14 Ms. McAleer, you referred to -- she asked you where the 15 concert was held and at page 285, lines -- between lines 16 3 and 16 you responded that it was in the -- it would be 17 north -- northwest or northeast and you've told My 18 Friend, Mr. Ross, that it was in the northwest. 19 Using the copy of Exhibit P-40 that's up 20 on the screen, can you point out with the laser, Mr. 21 Cottrelle, where the concert was held? 22 A: I guess it would be this area right 23 here. 24 Q: And you're pointing to the area in 25 the northwest corner of the Park just to the west of
421 Matheson Ro -- Drive, west of Matheson Drive and it's the 2 north-east corner of the Park, but the area on this map 3 is simply to the west of Matheson Drive, just up north 4 along the -- towards the -- just by the beach? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And with respect to the -- if I could 7 ask Mr. Registrar if you could give Mr. Cottrelle a copy 8 of Exhibit P-124. 9 A: I have a copy right here. 10 Q: Oh, you have the copy there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Could you mark on the copy of P-124 13 where the -- the concert took place in 1998 and did the 14 concert in 1997 take place in the same place? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I'm not certain which number 17 we're up to on -- 18 THE REGISTRAR: Number 3 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: It would be Number 3, so could you 22 just put a circle in that area where the concert was held 23 and mark Number 3 on it? 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Then, I just want to clarify one
431 other thing, and that's the -- My Friend Ms. McAleer 2 asked you about the -- where the burial grounds were 3 located and she said the road in front of the maintenance 4 building and using this copy of Exhibit P-40, that's the 5 same as P-124, can you tell us, is the road that you're 6 talking about right in front of the maintenance building, 7 i.e., the -- if you drive into the maintenance building, 8 you're on that road? 9 Or, does it run north from the maintenance 10 building up to the reservoir and the pump house? 11 A: Yeah, it runs north/south. 12 Q: It runs north/south? But it stops 13 before it gets to the maintenance building? 14 A: No. The driveway for the maintenance 15 -- maintenance building turns into the road. 16 Q: Okay. But the road that's blocked 17 off is not the road by the maintenance build -- in front 18 of the -- at the maintenance building? 19 A: Yeah, it's blocked from the 20 maintenance building to the reservoir. 21 Q: Just to the north of the maintenance 22 building to the reservoir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it's the area -- in that area 25 north of the maintenance building to the reservoir in
441 which the -- you were told that, by your grandfather, 2 that the burial grounds are located? 3 A: Yes. There's a -- I believe this is 4 the crick that runs through there. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: There's a ridge that starts right 7 about where the "P" is here and it runs along that -- 8 along that crick. And I believe it's -- it's right in 9 this area right in here. 10 Q: So could you mark on Exhibit P-124, I 11 know it's a small map, but the area that you are told by 12 your grandfather the burial grounds were and mark -- put 13 a Number 4 on it? 14 A: (INDICATING) 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Just trying to clear -- if there's 19 confusion that Mr. Ross intended for, as he said, 20 Commission Counsel to deal with, I'm not certain what it 21 is and if there's a video that would clear it up, then I 22 would like to show this witness the video before he 23 leaves. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
451 Q: Mr. Ross is just trying to -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: P-66 I think it is. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Registrar, could I 7 have P-66 please? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: What I'm showing you on the screen is 13 a copy of P-66, which is a video that was taken on 14 September 6th, and it's at 11:17 where we're looking at 15 now. But we need to go . 16 A: Getting dizzy. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: Getting dizzy. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: In this picture, which is at -- it's 23 frame 11-18, the area that's shown in the upper part of 24 the -- of the video is the -- in front of the Park store, 25 is that correct?
461 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the sandy parking lot would be on 3 the upper right hand corner off the -- off the -- off the 4 screen. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the car that's in the upper right 7 hand corner, it looks like a blue car, is that pointing - 8 - what direction is that pointing? Is that pointing 9 direct -- A: West. 10 Q: -- west? And actually this 11 particular video, where at 11:20 on September 6th, shows, 12 on the upper left part, behind the trees -- and if I 13 could get -- the area that there is a clump of trees and 14 then you -- there's a building just behind it. 15 That, in the left part of the frame, at 16 the top, that's the Park store? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the -- there's a parking lot that 19 runs north from the Park store, or one (1), two (2), 20 three (3) parking lots? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the parking lot, there's a line 23 of trees in this frame that separate the parking lot 24 that's closest to the fence line from the second parking 25 lot; is that correct?
471 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the area that we -- in front of - 3 - to the north of the Park store, was an area -- a paved 4 area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And in this frame there's the car we 7 looked at a few minutes ago, parked in -- to the -- in -- 8 on the road just to the north of the -- of the paved 9 area, or perhaps it's paving stones, to the north of the 10 Park store; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then there's an area, a grass 13 area to the east of the paving stones to the north of the 14 Park store; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that's where your picnic was 17 held? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: And in this picture that -- it's at 23 11:21, we see on the left side of the frame the Park 24 store; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
481 Q: Immediately to the right is a row of 2 trees? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then the -- immediately to the 5 right are -- on this frame there are two (2) vehicles and 6 the road that leads west towards East Parkway Drive -- 7 the sandy parking lot and then East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And at the top of the frame is -- can 10 you tell us what that is -- it's? 11 A: I can't make it out. 12 Q: But is that at the approximate area 13 of the exit from the Park to the sandy parking lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING)) 17 18 Q: And on the screen at 11-22 there's a 19 frame that shows two (2) cars side by side. Do you see 20 that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you recognize this area? 23 A: It'd be north of the maintenance 24 shed. 25 Q: North of the maintenance shed running
491 towards the lake? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so on this frame the maintenance 4 shed is on the top part of -- it's off -- off the screen 5 but it would be immediately at the top of this frame? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And is -- this road, does it lead 8 down -- is this the road that leads from the maintenance 9 building down to the road that runs in front of the 10 reservoir and pump house? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And is it the road -- this road 13 that's blocked off? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at the -- at the top of the frame 16 where it narrows beyond the narrowing point, it's open in 17 front of the maintenance building? 18 A: Yes. It's just the driveway parking 19 lot. 20 Q: The driveway parking lot by the 21 maintenance building is open? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That hasn't been closed off? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my
501 questions, Commissioner. Mr. Cottrelle, I would like to 2 thank you on behalf of the Commission very much for 3 coming and giving your evidence and you're free to go. 4 Thank you. 5 A: You're welcome. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Cottrelle, for coming and giving us your 8 evidence. Thank you. I think we'll take a break before 9 we call the next witness. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 12 morning break now. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 10:12 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 10:30 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed, please be seated. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 23 Commission calls at its next witness, Tina George. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning, Ms. George.
511 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 2 3 TINA RENE GEORGE, Sworn: 4 5 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Good morning. 7 A: Good morning. 8 Q: Ms. George, do you sometimes go by 9 the surname or have you ever adopted the surname Plain? 10 A: Just when I sign school papers for my 11 children. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: In the past, not so much now. 14 Q: Thank you. What is your current 15 place of residence? 16 A: 9356 Army Camp Road. 17 Q: And is that in the -- the former Camp 18 Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: What is your current occupation? 21 A: I'm a -- a full-time mother. 22 Q: Tell me the names of your parents? 23 A: Muriel, or Elsie Muriel George and 24 Abraham George. 25 Q: And did your father go by the
521 nickname Hamster from time to time? 2 A: Yes, he did. 3 Q: Thank you. Is your father deceased? 4 A: Yes, he is. 5 Q: Can you tell us the names of your 6 paternal grandparents? 7 A: Phoebe Smith (phonetic) and William 8 Smith. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Robert, from my dad -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- is Laura Ann Nancy Dunbar 13 (phonetic) and Robert George Senior. 14 Q: Those were your father's parents and 15 the first grandparents you referred to were your mother's 16 parents? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. And what was 19 the name of your father's grandfather? 20 A: My father's grandfather? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: His name was Albert George. 23 Q: Do you know where your great- 24 grandfather Albert George is buried? 25 A: Yes.
531 Q: Where is that? 2 A: In the former Provincial Park, 3 amongst the big willow trees. 4 Q: And approximately where are the 5 willow trees, that you are referring to, in the Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park? 7 A: They're on the east side of the pump 8 house that is located on the Stoney Point namesake. 9 Q: And when you say "the Stoney Point 10 namesake", can you just clarify what -- what structure or 11 what piece of land you're referring to? 12 A: On the water's edge where there's 13 flat stone -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- on the beach, in front of the pump 16 house. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But in the former Provincial Park. 19 Q: The Provincial Park beach? And when 20 you say "namesake", are you referring to a jetting out of 21 a piece of land into the water that was identified as 22 Stoney Point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. As distinct from the Kettle 25 Point namesake?
541 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, how -- 3 how did you learn of the place of your great- 4 grandfather's burial? 5 A: My father told me long ago. 6 Q: Do you know whether any other 7 aboriginal people are buried in the -- within the 8 boundaries of the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 9 A: Yes. He also said that Fletcher was. 10 Q: Your father told you this? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And who is Fletcher? 13 A: His -- his younger brother. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I believe younger. 16 Q: Fletcher George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Brother of Albert or of your father? 19 A: Brother of my father. 20 Q: Thank you. Okay. Did your father 21 tell you where Fletcher was buried? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Other than saying it was in the Park? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And are you aware of any
551 other aboriginal people buried within the boundaries of 2 the Provincial Park? 3 A: Other than an old Warrior that he 4 mentioned, he didn't give him a name. 5 Q: All right. And the old Warrior, did 6 your father tell you what First Nation the Warrior had 7 belonged to? 8 A: No, he never. 9 Q: All right. Did he tell you where 10 within the Park the old Warrior was buried? 11 A: Around the vicinity where Fletcher is 12 supposed to be buried. 13 Q: And I don't know that -- did you 14 provide us with that location? I know you said the 15 willow trees, with respect to Albert, but I'm not sure 16 you told us where within the Park. 17 A: It would be down north of the 18 maintenance building. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And then between the pump house. 21 Q: Yes. Between the pump house and the 22 maintenance building, -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and that stretch of land? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
561 Q: All right. Do you have any siblings? 2 Do you have any sisters or brothers? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: Can you name them for us, please? 5 A: The youngest one is Robert, and then 6 Elwood, and older than me would be Stork and then 7 Roderick, Mary, Joy, Beverly Franklin, Sandra Dale, Vera, 8 Carl Leon, six (6) brothers and five (5) sis -- four (4) 9 sisters. 10 Q: Yes, thank you. And your brother, 11 Stewart George, is he sometimes known as Worm? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And your brother, Roderick George, is 14 he sometimes known as Judas? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And tell me the names of your 17 children, please. 18 A: Phoebe Sarah Bronwyn Plain and Julie 19 Elizabeth Plain and Dale Timothy George Plain. 20 Q: And to your knowledge, have we heard 21 testimony from Dale Plain at this Inquiry? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Thank you. And how old was your 24 daughter, Phoebe, at the time of the occupation of the 25 Park, in September of 1995?
571 A: She would be five and a half (5 1/2), 2 she was born in 1990. 3 Q: And how old was your daughter, Julie, 4 at that time? 5 A: A little past two and a half (2 1/2) 6 months. 7 Q: Two and a half (2 1/2) months? 8 A: Or two and a half (2 1/2) years. 9 Q: Thank you. Was your father, Abraham, 10 formerly a resident on Indian Reserve Number 43, which 11 was subsequently appropriated as Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: Yes, he was. 13 Q: And did your dad ever talk to you 14 about the circumstances under which he had to leave the 15 Reserve? 16 A: Yes, he did. 17 Q: Can you tell us what you learned from 18 your father. 19 A: He told me that they had to pack up 20 and move. 21 Q: Did he tell you why? 22 A: That the Army was going to use it. 23 Q: Okay. Did he ever speak to you of 24 the circumstances under which that Reserve might be 25 returned?
581 A: After they got done using -- after 2 the war, it was supposed to be returned back. 3 Q: Where were you raised? 4 A: In Kettle Point. 5 Q: Kettle Point Reserve? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you know Dudley 8 George? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And what relationship was he to you? 11 A: He was a very close cousin, almost 12 like a brother. We used to chum around -- when we were 13 small we used to play together, but we used to chum 14 around since we were teenagers, young, about the age 15, 15 I was. 16 Q: How long have you been involved in 17 efforts to reclaim the appropriated Reserves? 18 A: I'd say in my teen years, since my 19 teenage years. 20 Q: And why -- why did you become 21 involved in efforts to reclaim the Reserve? 22 A: I felt it was something I wanted to 23 do. 24 Q: Why? 25 A: For -- for peace of mind.
591 Q: All right. Did anyone encourage you 2 to become involved in these efforts in your teenage 3 years? 4 A: No. 5 Q: What types of activities did you 6 participate with respect to these efforts? 7 A: I attended protests outside the camp 8 on, if I can remember correctly, two (2) separate 9 occasions. 10 Q: And do you remember approximately 11 what years those protests were carried on? 12 A: I'm sure one was before 1990 and one, 13 possibly, in 1990 also. 14 Q: What was the nature of these 15 protests? What actually happened during these protests? 16 A: Like any other protest we walked back 17 and forth in front of the gate. 18 Q: The main gate at the Army camp? 19 A: Yes. And held signs. 20 Q: All right. What types of things did 21 you put on your signs? 22 A: Give our land back, stuff like that. 23 Q: Did you have any involvement with 24 members of the Ontario Provincial Police or members of 25 the military during the protests that you participated
601 in? 2 A: Not at the main gate, not outside the 3 gate. 4 Q: All right. Did you -- 5 A: I never talked to any military people 6 there. 7 Q: I'm sorry, say that again. 8 A: I never talked to any military people 9 outside the main gate of the Army camp. 10 Q: All right. How about members of the 11 Ontario Provincial Police? 12 A: I don't recall talking to any police 13 during those protests outside the main gate of the Army 14 camp. 15 Q: Were you involved in -- on any 16 negotiating committees in relation to efforts to either 17 return Indian Reserve 43 or in relation to compensation 18 for that? 19 A: I -- I attended one (1) meeting they 20 had at Kettle Point community centre. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And I believe it was the very first 23 meeting that the Department of National Defence wanted to 24 hear from the people. And when I walked into that 25 community centre, I find Stoney Point people were on the
611 right side as I was going in the door, the Stoney Point 2 people would be on the right side and I found mostly 3 Kettle Point people on the left side. 4 Q: Okay. Of the room? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what side did you go to? 7 A: The right side. 8 Q: And why is that? Why did you go to 9 the right -- why is it you associated yourself with the 10 right side? 11 A: I seen my aunt Melva and my uncle Dan 12 sitting there, and a few other people -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- and. 15 Q: Okay. Now this meeting that you went 16 to, can you tell us approximately when that took place? 17 A: I think it would be before 1982. 18 Q: And why do you say that? 19 A: Because they were supposed to have a 20 vote and that vote was held in the year 1982. 21 Q: All right. So this meeting was a 22 pre-cursor to that vote? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was the vote for? 25 A: To accept compensation.
621 Q: From? 2 A: The Department of National Defence 3 and/or the government. 4 Q: In relation to what? 5 A: Compensation for the lands. 6 Q: Are you talking about Indian Reserve 7 43? 8 A: Yes, Stoney Point. 9 Q: Okay. Now, was your -- did you 10 receive any advice as to how you should or should not 11 vote in that compensation vote? 12 A: Yes, from my father. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: He said to vote no. 15 Q: Did he tell you why? 16 A: We don't want to accept money, we 17 don't want to sell our land. 18 Q: All right. And so, he wasn't looking 19 for compensation? 20 A: No, he wasn't. 21 Q: What was he looking for? 22 A: He was actually looking to go back 23 home some day. 24 Q: Did you agree with that position? 25 A: Yes, I did.
631 Q: And, to your knowledge, what was the 2 result of this vote in 1982 in relation to the offer of 3 compensation? 4 A: The result was a yes vote. 5 Q: So, it passed? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Do you have any knowledge 8 as to whether the -- the lines -- where the lines of the 9 vote fell in terms of yes versus no? 10 A: It was way over -- way past the yes 11 vote because there was more people voting from Kettle 12 Point than there was actually people who were heirs to 13 Stoney Point. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And, at that time, if you weren't 16 living on the Reserve you could not vote. 17 Q: And was that problematic for the -- 18 some of the people who formerly resided on the Stoney 19 Point part of the Reserve? 20 A: Yes, it was. At that meeting at 21 Kettle Point Committee Centre I recall getting up and 22 voicing to Corporal Prentice (phonetic) -- I'm sure he 23 was corporal -- I looked him in the eye and said, If we 24 can't all live there, meaning Stoney Point, when we're 25 alive, then we'll all live there when we're dead.
641 Q: And -- all right. You indicated that 2 Dan George was your uncle? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you learn anything from Dan 5 George in relation to the history of the appropriated 6 Reserve? 7 A: Him and -- him and my dad, they were 8 all saying that that was their home. 9 Q: Yes. And did you learn anything of 10 the circumstances from him with respect to whether or not 11 that land would be returned? 12 A: From Uncle Dan? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Could you repeat that, please. 15 Q: Certainly. I'm wondering, you've 16 told us what your father told you concerning the 17 circumstances of the possible return of the Reserve; did 18 you learn anything from your uncle Dan in that respect? 19 A: Basically the same as my father would 20 tell me. 21 Q: Did you attend the burial of Dan 22 George in 1990? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And where was that burial held? 25 A: In the old cemetery, in the bush.
651 Q: And what -- within what -- what lands 2 was the cemetery located? 3 A: Stoney Point. 4 Q: Was it then Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Had you been on the -- 7 onto the Army Camp Base before that event? 8 A: On the Army Camp Base? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I think only one (1) time I can 11 recall that I went for a job interview, to try get a job 12 with a catering company. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And was never hired. 15 Q: And that was the only time prior to 16 1990 that you had actually been on the Army Camp Base? 17 A: I believe so. 18 Q: Had you made any efforts, prior to 19 1990 and this interview that you've told us of, to go 20 onto the Army Base land? 21 A: Before 1990? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: If you're meaning part of the bush, I 24 went with my brother Carl Leon (phonetic) to look for 25 morels.
661 Q: All right. And how old were you when 2 -- when you would do that? 3 A: I was less than twelve (12). 4 Q: All right. And morels are mushrooms? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what do you gather mushrooms or 7 the morels for? 8 A: To eat. 9 Q: Okay. Now, had you ever been advised 10 by anyone from the Military Camp, prior to 1990, that you 11 were not permitted to be on the land? 12 A: Personally, not me, no. 13 Q: Okay. Was there an incident in 1978, 14 when you were nineteen (19) years old, when you had a 15 conversation with a military personnel in relation to 16 Camp Ipperwash? And going on that land? 17 A: Was there a -- 18 Q: An incident or an event? 19 A: Prior to 1978? 20 Q: No, in 1978. 21 A: In 1978. 22 Q: When you were nineteen (19). Do you 23 recall? 24 A: 1978 was when I gave birth to my 25 first child. Was there any confrontation?
671 Q: Not -- not a confrontation. Let me - 2 - let me rephrase the question. Were you ever advised by 3 any military personnel, that you were trespassing on Camp 4 Ipperwash? 5 A: Oh, yes, I was. I had my first car 6 then and I went for a ride down, what they call Matheson 7 Drive, and I was proceeding to the beach and a military 8 personnel yelled. I heard somebody yell. And I looked 9 out the passenger window and he was standing up on a sand 10 dune, yelling for me to get out. 11 And as I recall, that my dad and my Dan 12 was stopped -- my father Abraham and my Uncle Daniel Ray, 13 Senior, were stopped at the same location and told the 14 same thing. 15 Q: All right. And was this beach part 16 of the Camp Ipperwash beach at that time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you ever a member of a -- of a 19 Stony Point negotiating committee prior to 1995? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And can you tell me when you were a 22 member of that negotiating committee, during what time 23 period? 24 A: In my young teen years. I recall 25 going to at least three (3) meetings held within houses
681 of my aunts and uncles, and if I can correctly remember, 2 there was one (1) held at the United Church on Kettle 3 Point. 4 Q: What was the main objective of the 5 group's negotiating committee? 6 A: To talk over on how we can regain our 7 lands back. 8 Q: And with respect to the definition of 9 regaining your lands back, what lands specifically were 10 discussed? 11 A: From Outer Drive to Highway 21, down 12 Army Camp Road. 13 Q: And what would be the northern 14 boundary? 15 A: The water's edge. 16 Q: Did that land include the Ipperwash 17 Provincial Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What role did you play on the 20 negotiating committee? 21 A: I was just a spectator. 22 Q: Okay. And was there a name to this 23 negotiating committee? 24 A: I think just Stoney Point Committee. 25 Q: Do you know who the actual members of
691 the committee were, as opposed to the -- the spectators? 2 A: My Aunt and Uncle George, Janet 3 Cloud, Robert George, his wife, Pearl, Maynard, -- 4 Q: Maynard? 5 A: Maynard T. George. 6 Q: Yes. Thank you. And Pearl? 7 A: Pearl George is Maynard's -- Maynard 8 T.'s mother. 9 Q: Thank you. Anyone else? 10 A: There was -- there was a few more 11 people but I can't really remember right off hand. 12 Q: All right. And how long did this 13 negotiating committee -- well, when did it cease to 14 exist? 15 A: The -- the people are still there -- 16 the last -- ceased to exist -- if we get together and -- 17 and talk, then it'll still be there. 18 Q: Okay. So, are you indicating that 19 this negotiating committee still exists? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. And what were 22 the -- to your knowledge, what were the major efforts 23 that the negotiating committee made, prior to 1995, in 24 relation to the objective of regaining the lands? 25 A: Could you repeat that.
701 Q: Sure. What -- what were the -- what 2 were the activities that the negotiating committee 3 engaged in prior to '95 to try to regain the lands? 4 A: Protests outside the main gate at the 5 Army Camp. 6 Q: Okay. Now, you called it the 7 negotiating committee; did they actually carry out any 8 negotiations with anyone? 9 A: It was mainly amongst themselves. 10 Q: All right. And how -- how were these 11 members appointed or elected to become part of the Stoney 12 Point Negotiating Committee? 13 A: They were -- I don't think that they 14 were appointed or elected. You were just -- if your 15 mother or father were heirs to the Stoney Point lands. 16 Q: All right. So, these are individuals 17 whose parents had been former residents -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- of the Indian Reserve 43, or the 20 Stoney Point land? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Who do you believe the 23 Ipperwash Provincial Park belongs to? 24 A: My father and his People. 25 Q: And how long have you held that
711 belief? 2 A: Every since I can remember. 3 Q: Why -- what is the basis for holding 4 that belief? 5 A: It -- it's something you're born 6 with. 7 Q: And when you say it's something 8 you're born with. Are you referring to the -- the sense 9 of where -- where your ancestors lived? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Did you take, personally, any 12 steps to reclaim the Park land as distinct from the Camp 13 Ipperwash land, prior to 1995? 14 A: To reclaim the Park lands? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Not -- not until I went -- went onto 17 the Park myself. 18 Q: All right. So, it's fair to say that 19 the prior protests that you were involved in were 20 specifically aimed at -- 21 A: The whole area. The whole entire 22 Stoney Point within those boundaries that I mentioned, 23 from Outer Drive to Army Camp. 24 Q: The -- the placards, the posters and 25 -- that -- that you carried, would they make -- did they
721 make specific reference to a return of the Park land or 2 were they -- 3 A: No. No. They never made -- that I 4 can recall, it wasn't specifically identified that. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: The -- the words were only used, 7 Stoney Point Reserve. 8 Q: The Stoney Point Reserve? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Now, had you been to the 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park prior to September the 4th of 12 1995? 13 A: Yes. I -- I've walked that land 14 before. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: As a young child. 17 Q: Who -- who would take you there? 18 A: My -- I believe I -- I most likely 19 went myself or with one (1) of my younger cousins. 20 Q: All right. And as a teenager did you 21 go to the Park -- Park from time to time? 22 A: No. Not when there was campers in 23 there, I never. 24 Q: Why -- why is that? 25 A: Because I wasn't camping.
731 Q: Okay. Did you have to pay any type 2 of a -- a fee to go into the Park? 3 A: When I walked there on foot, I 4 believe, no I didn't. 5 Q: Okay. Are you aware that a number of 6 members of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band entered Camp 7 Ipperwash in May of 1993, and proceeded to camp there, 8 for approximately two (2) years? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: Okay. Were you part of the initial 11 group who entered onto the Camp Ipperwash lands in May of 12 1993? 13 A: The moment they did it, I wasn't 14 there, I was in Thedford, no, I wasn't. 15 Q: And were you resident in Thedford at 16 that time? 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: When and how did you first learn 19 about that occupation? 20 A: I believe I heard it on the radio, on 21 the morning radio. 22 Q: All right. What was your reaction 23 when you learned of that news? 24 A: I thought to myself, right on. 25 Q: Okay. Did you visit the campsites of
741 the occupants at Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: Frequently, I did, almost every day, 3 if I could make it there. 4 Q: Almost every day you could make it 5 there? 6 A: If I could make it there, because I 7 didn't have a vehicle. 8 Q: Okay. And you had children at that 9 time? 10 A: Yes. And, excuse me, I got to back 11 up there. I did have a vehicle. It was a silver Ford 12 Tempo. 13 Q: Okay. All right. Why did you visit 14 the -- the campsite? 15 A: To -- to see everybody. 16 Q: Did you know the people there? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And can you recall who -- who were 19 the -- the main residents at the Camp Ipperwash lands in 20 -- in 1993? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Can you tell me who they were? 23 A: Anthony O'Brien George, Marlin Simon, 24 Kevin Simon, Dave George, David Abra -- Abraham David 25 George, Clayton Morris George, my father, after, like
751 within days or -- Pearl was there, and her family, and 2 Janet, those are the main ones I remember. 3 Q: Okay. Were there any individuals who 4 were not -- did not have ancestral connections to the 5 Camp Ipperwash lands or Indian Reserve 43, who stayed 6 there? 7 A: Yeah, I remember a few people. I 8 don't know if this gentleman stayed there or not, though. 9 Q: I'm more interested in those who 10 became residents there, as opposed to visitors. 11 A: Terrence George's wife or girlfriend, 12 Edie, she was not an heir. 13 Q: Was Terrence George, an heir, as you 14 put it, and have a relationship? 15 A: I think he was, yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: A friend of his, Hector, or his 18 nickname would be Haywire. 19 Q: Is that Hector Gibeault? 20 A: Yeah. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: That's what I -- about how much I can 25 recall.
761 Q: All right. Thank you. Do you recall 2 seeing Clifford George there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you sleep over from time to 5 time during the occupation of the campsites? 6 A: From time to time, yes. 7 Q: And did you continue to visit these 8 lands up to July of 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you ever see any helicopter 11 activity during the course of your visits? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Were you there in the evening, very 14 often? 15 A: Not too -- not too far into the 16 evening because I had a little child that had to go home 17 to bed, or actually two (2). 18 Q: Are you aware as to whether or not 19 the occupants, or some of them, would hunt from time to 20 time at the Army Camp? 21 A: Yes, I was aware of that. 22 Q: And is it fair to say that, to your 23 knowledge, some of the occumants -- occupants had rifles 24 with which to hunt, at the camp? 25 A: Yeah. They had rifles to hunt, yes.
771 Q: Do you know what kind of rifles that 2 you saw? 3 A: I didn't see any rifles. 4 Q: Okay. How are you -- 5 A: I just knew that they hunt with 6 rifles. 7 Q: All right. Fair enough. Were you a 8 hunter at the time? 9 A: Not at the time. 10 Q: Did you hunt at one time? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And what time period was that? 13 A: It would be anywhere from 1998 to the 14 year 2002. 15 Q: And you indicated that you had a 16 close relationship with Anthony O'Brien (phonetic) 17 George, or Dudley George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And is he one (1) of the persons that 20 you would visit from time to time? 21 A: Yes. I also stayed at his house one 22 (1) night. 23 Q: Okay. You indicated you had a close 24 relationship, that you played with him as a child, that 25 you hung out, I think you said, as a teenager; is it fair
781 to say that you basically kept up contact with him during 2 his years? 3 A: Yes. When he was on a member -- 4 actually, I think he was a president of Native Sons when 5 he was incarcerated for a couple of years, that he would 6 write me letters. 7 Q: And can you tell me what, firstly, 8 when approximately he was the president of the Native 9 Sons? Or how old he was? 10 A: In his early twenties, I -- I think. 11 Q: All right. And can you tell us also 12 then what this organization was? 13 A: The word speaks for itself. They 14 were a group of Native, young Native men, that I can 15 recall. 16 Q: And were these young Native men -- 17 what -- aside from their youth, what, if anything, did 18 they have in common? 19 A: Friendship and the fact that they 20 were aboriginal. 21 Q: Were they all from the same community 22 or from different First Nations? 23 A: I recall that they were all from 24 different First Nations. 25 Q: And within what province or --
791 A: It would have to be Ontario. 2 Q: Ontario. And can you tell me also 3 what the primary mission, if you will, or -- or 4 objectives of this organization was? 5 A: It was more likely to -- for 6 companionship. 7 Q: Do you know whether they had any 8 projects that -- while -- while Dudley George was a 9 member? 10 A: Projects, no, I -- I don't recall. 11 Q: And you indicated that he was 12 incarcerated during this period of time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you know -- 15 A: He was for a couple years. 16 Q: Do you know what that was for? 17 A: I think it had something to do with 18 the old canning factory in Forest. 19 Q: Can you be a little more specific? 20 A: No, I can't because I'm not entirely 21 sure if that's -- to this day, but I'm -- I'm pretty sure 22 it was. 23 Q: All right. And you indicated that -- 24 that you received letters from Dudley George? 25 A: Yes.
801 Q: Did you keep any of those letters? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. Based on your -- your contact, 4 your relationship with Dudley George, can you give us a 5 description of him, how you -- how you saw him? 6 A: I saw him as a funny guy. He was 7 very easy to get along with. He had a good sense of 8 humour. He was strong-minded also. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: And he was a pleasant guy. I very 11 rarely seen him mad. 12 Q: And did he have a -- a relationship 13 with your children? 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: Can you describe that? 16 A: He used to babysit them, a couple 17 times, when I would go to Bingo. And my kids really 18 liked him. They called him Cabbage Patch Kid. 19 Q: Do you know why? 20 A: Because one (1) time one (1) of my 21 brothers, as -- they were playing a joke and they shaved 22 one (1) of his eyebrows off. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And then they called him Cuddly 25 Dudley.
811 Q: Cuddly Dudley? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. Would you like a moment? 4 A: No, it's okay. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: During your visits to the Army Camp 10 between 1993 and July of '95, did you ever go on any 11 patrols with -- with Dudley George around -- around the 12 land there? 13 A: Yeah, I probably did. 14 Q: And what was the purpose of those 15 patrols? 16 A: Just to check out that nobody wasn't 17 -- wasn't supposed to be where they weren't supposed to 18 be. 19 Q: All right. Were there -- was there 20 an understanding, to your knowledge, as between the 21 occupants and the military personnel as to where people 22 should and should not be? 23 A: Yes. It was my understanding that 24 the people who were staying on the ranges were not to go 25 on the built-up area, and I'm pretty sure it was the same
821 term that the military wasn't supposed to bother the 2 people who were camping on the ranges. 3 Q: And by "ranges", are you referring to 4 the rifle ranges or -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Did you ever witness any 7 encounters or interchanges between Dudley George and 8 military personnel? 9 A: Yes. I was there with him one (1) 10 day. One (1) night I stayed over and my car was -- the 11 silver Ford Tempo was parked out on the road. And the 12 range patrol truck, the silver one with the little lights 13 on top, stopped out in front of his place. 14 And I seen that they were taking down my 15 licence, and it kind of made me mad. And I told Dudley, 16 I said, I wish I had something to throw at them. And 17 what he -- he handed me a dozen eggs, so I stood there 18 and bombed that truck with eggs. And he goes, let me 19 have one. So we were just throwing the eggs and we were 20 just laughing. We thought it was funny. We were... 21 Q: And did the military personnel 22 respond or react? 23 A: They sat there and let us throw the 24 eggs. 25 Q: Okay. And did you hit any -- any of
831 them? 2 A: Not -- not the military guys, but I 3 seem to think that I did connect with one little round 4 light on the top of the hood. 5 Q: Okay. Were there any other 6 encounters that you witnessed or were a part of, 7 involving Dudley George and the military? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you form any impression, based on 10 your observations, as to whether or not the military 11 personnel knew Dudley George by name? 12 A: Yes, I think they knew him by name. 13 Q: And how do you know that? 14 A: Bec -- Well Dudley said that they 15 always used to do that, when everybody -- when anyone 16 came to visit him, the Range Patrol would pull up and 17 take their license plates, or record their license 18 plates -- 19 Q: Yes. And did Dudley -- 20 A: -- for their own information, I 21 suppose. 22 Q: Sorry, did Dudley George have a 23 vehicle with him? 24 A: Not -- not one that could be driven 25 on the road.
841 Q: Well, did he have a license plate 2 that could be then tracked? 3 A: No, but he had outside of his 4 trailer, Dudley's Place. 5 Q: Okay. Did you witness any other 6 interactions, as between any of the other occupants and 7 military personnel during this -- this time period of May 8 '93 to July '95? 9 A: I vaguely remember seeing a Range 10 Patrol go by with cam, taking pictures, and I think that 11 someone tried to run out -- run out the road and was 12 yelling at them, for, like, to be on their way or... 13 Q: Okay. And did that person throw 14 anything at the -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- patrol? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you witness anybody throwing 19 things at the patrols? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you ever witness any incidents, 22 involving Dudley George and members of the Ontario 23 Provincial Police, on the beach front of Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: Can you tell us about that?
851 A: It would be -- it would have -- it 2 would be the Saturday or the Sunday before Labour Day. 3 Q: Of what year? 4 A: 1995. There was campers still in the 5 Park. I made my way down to the beach area and I noticed 6 that the OPP Who car was stuck in the sand and there was 7 about five (5) or six (6) guys standing around the car. 8 And then I noticed Dudley at -- at the 9 end, or at the edge of the grass. He was right up to the 10 face of two (2) police officers. 11 And, while I was in the car with Russ 12 Jewel and Marlin Simon and first, Russie, he turned right 13 and parked down the beach a ways from -- from where the 14 OPP Who car was stuck -- 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: -- and he got out and he opened up 17 the trunk and he says, let's make it look like we got 18 guns in here. And I looked at him and I said, What for? 19 I said, I'm going to go over there and see what's 20 happening. And Marlin said, Me too. 21 So we start walking over there and when we 22 got over there, I went to see what Dudley was up to and I 23 stood right there and I looked at him and I looked at the 24 officers, there was two (2) officers standing there. 25 And Dudley has -- he was right in their
861 face, like three (3) inches apart, and he was just 2 yelling at them, giving them heck, what are you doing 3 here, you got no business here. And I could see spit 4 flying out of his face. 5 Q: Mm-hmm. Yes? 6 A: And he was really mad. And I looked 7 at the guy standing over there and I looked behind me, 8 and I could see about a hundred (100) faces looking -- 9 Q: A hundred (100) faces from where? 10 A: Of the campers. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There were still campers in the Park. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And I went back to the guys over 15 there and I told the guys, I said, I'll -- I'll jump in 16 your car and you push me and get the car out. And the 17 minute the car came unstuck, Dudley was right there, they 18 got back in their car and they left. 19 Q: All right. Now, let's just -- so 20 that I understand a little bit more clearly what you've 21 just described. First of all, the beach upon which this 22 occurred, and that was at the beach, then, in front of 23 the Ipperwash Park? 24 A: Yes. It would be on the northwest 25 corner.
871 Q: All right. As -- 2 A: The very corner. 3 Q: I'm sorry. As distinct from the 4 military beach? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And the OPP WHO car, whose car 7 was that? 8 A: I would have to say it was 9 everybody's car. 10 Q: Everybody's from? 11 A: From who was staying on the built-up 12 area. 13 Q: Okay. So, the barracks? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. So, the occupants? 16 A: Yeah. I would say it was a community 17 res. bomb (phonetic). 18 Q: And this occurred in August, the last 19 weekend of August of 1995? 20 A: Yes, the weekend prior to Labour Day. 21 Q: Russ Jewel -- you said "Russie", you 22 meant Russ Jewel when you said "Russie"? 23 A: Yes. His real name is Royal Russ 24 Jewel. 25 Q: His real name is Royal Russ Jewel?
881 A: Royal Russel Jewel, I believe. 2 Q: Okay. And what type of car did Mr. 3 Jewel drive on this incident? 4 A: It was an older dark blue Dodge 5 Satellite. And -- 6 Q: You indicated -- I'm sorry. 7 A: It had primer, light gray primer 8 spots, where someone would have done auto body. 9 Q: Okay. So, there was patches? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. Now, you said that Russ 12 Jewel drove the car down and -- and then parked some ways 13 away from the OPP WHO car? 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: And he said to you and to Marlin 16 Simon something like, Let's make it look like we have 17 guns inside -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- the car? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Inside the trunk. 23 Q: Sorry, inside the trunk. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Thank you. And did he -- did he open
891 the trunk? 2 A: Yes, he did. 3 Q: Did you look inside? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And what did you see? 6 A: Wrenches to fix a tire, maybe a spare 7 tire, some junk. 8 Q: Did you see any guns in that car? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: Do you have any -- did you form any 11 impression as to why Russ Jewel would want -- would want 12 to give the impression, presumably to the police, that 13 there were guns in the car, or in the trunk? 14 A: No. I -- I couldn't figure out why 15 he would -- he was doing that, other than to make himself 16 look bad or mean or -- 17 Q: All right. Did -- did Mr. Jewel do 18 anything, aside from opening the trunk of his car, to 19 give the impression or that you think was intended to 20 give the impression that there were guns in the trunk? 21 A: No. He never did anything else. 22 Q: You didn't hear him say anything to 23 the police officers about guns or rifles? 24 A: No. I think that he -- he kept a 25 fair distance.
901 Q: From the police? 2 A: Yeah. From where the OPP WHO car was 3 stuck. I don't think that he came right over there to 4 where me and Marlin had walked. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I think that he stood back farther 7 and watched. 8 Q: You indicated that you asked the guys 9 to give you a push to dislodge or remove, if you will, 10 the OPP WHO car -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- that you saw was stuck in the 13 sand. And were you referring to Russ Jewel and Marlin 14 Simon? 15 A: As what? 16 Q: As the guys who pushed you? 17 A: No, the guys who pushed, that I was 18 referring to were the other occupants -- 19 Q: Whether there -- 20 A: -- that were riding in the WHO -- OPP 21 WHO car with Dudley. 22 Q: Okay. And who were they? 23 A: I think Wes or Waldo would have been 24 there. 25 Q: Warren George?
911 A: Yes. I know Robert was there, would 2 have been there. 3 Q: Is that Robert Isaac? 4 A: Isaac, yeah. And I'm not sure, there 5 might have been one (1) or two (2) Oneida guys in there, 6 I'm not sure. That was a long time ago. 7 Q: All right. And so it was your 8 suggestion to move the OPP WHO car and then did that seem 9 to resolve the dispute? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did Dudley George then go into the 12 OPP WHO car and leave? 13 A: Immediately. 14 Q: Immediately. Did you have a chance 15 to talk to him about what had happened? 16 A: No, no. 17 Q: Now you said that Dudley George told 18 the police that they had basically no business being 19 there? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you have any understanding as to 22 what was meant by that? 23 A: I think he got his ultimate chance to 24 give the cops shit for all the years they picked on him. 25 Q: Now, have you -- did you have any --
921 let me put it this way: To your knowledge, did -- did 2 the OPP know Dudley George by name? 3 A: Yes, they did. 4 Q: And can you tell me how it is that 5 you draw that conclusion? 6 A: It goes back to, it would have to be 7 either 1978 or 1979, when -- when I had my first car, -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: Dudley and myself and my boyfriend at 10 the time, were coming from Sarnia and we came through 11 Forrest around to where the library is located now -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- and the Forrest Co-Op was -- and a 14 store behind the library, and we were stopped by the 15 police there and they seen Dudley in a car. They never 16 asked him nothing. They just dragged him out of the car 17 and said, the Co-Op was broken into and you did it, 18 Dudley. 19 And it really surprised me. I said, we 20 just came from Sarnia and Dudley was with us. And they 21 left him alone. 22 Q: All right. And was it -- did the OPP 23 have jurisdiction in Forest at that time? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And are you aware of any other
931 incidents that you saw, involving Dudley George and the 2 OPP, that gave you this impression that they knew him by 3 name? 4 A: They must have known him from when he 5 was a young teenager also. This one other time, I 6 remember, Four Sidewalk Sale Days, and there would be 7 Laverne (phonetic), Dudley's younger brother, Dudley's 8 younger sister, Pamela, and Dudley's younger brother, 9 David Lorne. 10 And we were hanging around uptown, Four 11 Sidewalk Sale Days was going on, and I recall Dudley and 12 Peter getting chased through the streets. I never knew 13 what for. 14 After they were getting chased around, we 15 decided to go back over to Uncle Nug's house on Water 16 Street. 17 Q: Who is Uncle Nug, what's his name? 18 A: Dudley's father. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Reginald George -- 21 Q: Okay. Thank you. 22 A: -- Senior. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And we went back to the house and 25 stayed there, and we didn't go back uptown.
941 Q: Okay. I just want to go back to -- 2 to Russ Jewel for a moment. And I'll ask you questions 3 about him a little bit later in terms of the Park. But 4 in relation to the barracks, was he one (1) of the people 5 who was living at the barracks prior to the occupation of 6 the Park? 7 A: I think he used to stay over with his 8 brother Les Jewel. First I remember them staying at 9 Glen's place and then they -- his brother Les Jewel moved 10 into a building over by where I live now. And Wayne Pine 11 (phonetic) stayed on the other half of the building 12 where I stay presently. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And Russ Jewel would either stay at 15 Wayne Pine's dwelling or his brother or at Glen's. 16 Q: That's Glenn George? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Do you know -- well, how -- did you 19 come to know Russ Jewel? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you have an understanding as to 22 why he would visit the barracks and stay over with any of 23 those three (3) individuals? 24 A: I first known him to be a supporter. 25 Q: All right.
951 A: And he claimed to be a fire keeper. 2 Q: Are you aware as to what First Nation 3 he belongs? 4 A: Muncey, I think. 5 Q: And that's just outside of London? 6 A: Yes. Next to the Oneida Settlement. 7 Q: And what is a fire keeper? 8 A: To keep a sacred fire. 9 Q: Do you know whether or not he was 10 someone that -- whether he in fact discharged that 11 obligation at the barracks? 12 A: We had a -- a sacred fire right by 13 the fire hall, across from Glen's, there. We had a 14 sacred fire going there. 15 Q: Was he one (1) of the individuals who 16 was charged with maintaining that fire? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you just explain to me what's 19 involved in terms of being a fire keeper? 20 A: To watch the fire, to make sure the 21 ashes don't go out, to make sure that no one puts 22 anything into that fire as terms of loose paper, 23 cigarette butts or anything -- 24 Q: All right. 25 A: -- other than tobacco.
961 Q: What is the purpose of a -- 2 A: Or offerings. 3 Q: Thank you. What is the purpose of a 4 sacred fire then? 5 A: To speak to the Creator. 6 Q: Were you part of the initial group of 7 aboriginal persons who took over the barracks or the 8 built-up area of Camp Ipperwash on July the 29th, 1995? 9 A: Yes, I'm glad to say that. 10 Q: And from whom did you find out that 11 the barracks were going to be taken over on July 29th? 12 A: Rose Manning came to Thedford, there, 13 and picked myself up and Gina Tessier (phonetic), it 14 would be Rose Manning's niece, and she lived next door to 15 me, and she asked us if we wanted to go down to Stoney 16 Point. And, of course, we said yes. 17 But I vaguely remember if she mentioned a 18 plan to go into the Park. 19 Q: All right. At that time did she 20 mention a plan to go into the Park? 21 A: She may have. 22 Q: All right. At some point are you -- 23 do you recall her mentioning that plan? 24 A: She may have. 25 Q: All right. Can you tell me, was Rose
971 Manning one (1) of the occupants of the Camp Ipperwash 2 lands before July 29th, 1995? 3 A: Yeah. Her and her family parked -- 4 or camped down on the ranges also. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And was Rose Manning someone who 8 carried a degree of influence within the Stoney Point 9 community there? 10 A: Yes, I would -- I would say that, 11 because she's an Elder. 12 Q: Would you tell me what other persons 13 carried such influence within the Stoney Point group or 14 community at the Camp Ipperwash lands, similar to her? 15 A: Clifford George. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Pearl George, Robert George, my 18 father Abraham George. 19 Q: Did Carl Thasma (phonetic) or Carl 20 George also play or have -- exercised a degree of 21 influence? 22 A: Yes. I believe he was Stoney Point 23 Chief at the time. 24 Q: When you say "Stoney Point Chief," my 25 understanding is that there is only one (1) Indian Act
981 Band at that time, the Kettle and Stoney Point Band. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Can you explain to me what you mean 4 in describing him as Chief of Stoney Point? 5 A: After they went in on '93, I rem -- 6 seem to remember that they had a small vote, the people 7 who were there, and he was elected Chief. 8 Q: By the community there? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, was he also an Elder? 11 A: I -- I think he was in between. 12 Q: Okay. But meaning he was on his way 13 to earning that status. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: By age. 17 Q: So, in any event, Rose Manning 18 visited you on July the 29th and told you that the 19 barracks were going to be occupied and invited you to 20 come? 21 A: I can't specifically remember her 22 telling me that the barracks were going to be occupied. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And I -- I recall that while we were 25 standing on the beachfront, I'm pretty sure it was Les
991 Jewel who asked Glenn, Well when are you going to go in 2 the Park then. And Glenn shrugged his shoulders and 3 said, I don't know. And somebody else said, Now is a 4 good time as any. 5 And so, what happened, I wasn't at the 6 right place at the right time for once. 7 Q: Now, just so that I'm clear, are you 8 talking about the occupation of the Park or the barracks, 9 this -- this conversation? 10 A: Oh, the Park. 11 Q: That's okay. 12 A: Sorry. 13 Q: No, no, not at all. We'll -- we'll 14 get to that part in a little bit. Thank you. 15 In any event, Rose Manning drove you and 16 her niece to the Army Camp on July the 29th; is that 17 right? 18 A: We went down to the beach. 19 Q: You went to the beach. All right. 20 And what happened -- can you firstly tell me 21 approximately what time of day you arrived at the beach? 22 A: It would be around noon hour, early 23 afternoon -- 24 Q: Early after -- 25 A: -- possibly.
1001 Q: Okay. And which beach was that? 2 Park beach or the Camp Ipperwash beach? 3 A: The Camp Ipperwash beach, down by -- 4 where everybody used to meet; they call it The Pass. 5 Q: The Path? 6 A: Pass. 7 Q: Pass? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And were there other people at 10 The Pass on the beach? 11 A: Yeah. There was other people there. 12 Q: Were they people who were also from - 13 - from the self-identified Stoney Point group? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: What, if anything, was discussed 16 amongst that group when you arrived? 17 A: When -- when I arrived people were 18 just sitting around, talking. 19 Q: All right. And did any -- were any 20 decisions made in terms of what actions were going to be 21 taken? 22 A: The only decision that I can really, 23 truly remember, is that the young guys were to ride in 24 the bus. 25 Q: What bus?
1011 A: The yellow school bus. 2 Q: Is this the bus that belongs to 3 Warren George? 4 A: Yes. And it was only the young guys. 5 I specifically remember that because I was trying to 6 board that bus and catch a ride up there on there myself, 7 but I was told I couldn't because I wasn't a young guy. 8 Q: Okay. Did you happen to see how 9 many? When you say, young guys, what age range did you 10 observe? 11 A: Teenagers. 12 Q: Teenagers? 13 A: Young. Teenagers. 14 Q: Approximately how many teenagers, 15 male teenagers, were on that bus? 16 A: I wouldn't say more than ten (10). 17 Q: Did you recognize who the driver of 18 the bus was? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: Who was that? 21 A: Harley George. 22 Q: Do you recall any of the other people 23 who were on that bus? 24 A: Nicolas -- 25 Q: Nicolas?
1021 A: -- Leland. Nicolas Cottrelle. 2 Leland George, I think my son Dale was on there. I can't 3 remember if Marlin and Waldo was on there, they could 4 have been, seeing as they are young guys and they're 5 younger than I am. And that's all I can recall. 6 Q: All right. What was your 7 understanding as to what the bus was supposed to do? 8 Where was Harley supposed to drive this bus? 9 A: It wasn't -- I think that he was 10 supposed to go up the dirt road because that bus did not 11 have insurance on it to go out onto the paved Army Camp 12 Road. 13 Q: And did you observe the bus drive 14 along the dirt road parallel to Army Camp Road, towards 15 the built-up area? At the dirt road? 16 A: I -- I vaguely remember that. 17 Q: Did -- did you go up to the barracks 18 at that time? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And by what mode of transportation 21 did you use to go to the barracks? 22 A: The back seat of Rose Manning's car. 23 Q: All right. Can you tell us what 24 route you took from the beach to the barracks in Rose 25 Manning's car?
1031 A: I'm pretty sure he went down Matheson 2 Drive, north on Army Camp, to the main gate of the built- 3 up area. 4 Q: And, again, was this early afternoon, 5 to the best of your recollection? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: When you arrived at the main gate, 8 and I take it that's the gate that's approx -- on Army 9 Camp Road, near Highway 21; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. What did you -- did you 12 have any difficulty entering into the main gate? 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: Why not? 15 A: I -- they probably knew we were 16 coming sometime. 17 Q: Well, let me ask you this: 18 Typically, was that gate patrolled, if you will, by 19 military personnel or regulated by them? 20 A: It could be at that time or, I 21 remember seeing that Corporal Prentice standing at that 22 front gate, but I'm not sure if it was that time or one 23 of the other two (2) times when we were protesting. 24 Q: Okay. The earlier protest you've 25 spoke to?
1041 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. Let me ask you this then: 3 You indicated that you didn't have any difficulty 4 entering through the main gate; is that right? 5 A: No -- 6 Q: In other -- 7 A: -- we didn't have no difficulty as I 8 can remember. 9 Q: In other words, no one tried to stop 10 you? 11 A: No, no one. 12 Q: Was the -- was the gate up or down? 13 A: I think they put it up. It -- it was 14 down but I -- I seem to remember that they lifted it up. 15 Q: Do you know who "they" was? 16 A: Without hesitation. 17 Q: Who's "they"? 18 A: And older gentleman. 19 Q: From the military? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did -- did people enter ahead of you, 22 that you saw? 23 A: I'm pretty sure there was a vehicle 24 in front of us, but I can't remember who it was. 25 Q: When you entered, then, the Army Camp
1051 in the car, where did the -- where did the car go? 2 A: To my best recollection, to the 3 parade square. 4 Q: The parade square. 5 A: In front of the drill hall. 6 Q: Okay. Were there other aboriginal 7 persons in the parade square when you got there? 8 A: The bus was there. 9 Q: All right. And were there other 10 vehicles or persons on foot from the -- the occupants? 11 A: Anyone who was behind us. Rose, I'm 12 pretty sure she was there because I was in her vehicle. 13 I really don't think that she would have stopped at the 14 gate and be blocked over there. I'm pretty sure that 15 Rose was there too. 16 Q: What I'd like to know, as best as you 17 can, is can you tell us approximately how many aboriginal 18 persons entered the barracks at that time, the built-up 19 area at that time? 20 A: To my best knowledge, I -- not more 21 than twenty (20), I would imagine, I -- I'm sure. 22 Q: And that included a bus with 23 approximately ten (10) male youth, your car with the 24 three (3) of you in; and were there other vehicles then? 25 A: Yeah. I'm pretty sure Janet Cloud
1061 was there. Janet Cloud's vehicle. 2 Q: Did you see the bus enter the 3 barracks? 4 A: No. 5 Q: So, was it there already when you 6 entered? 7 A: I remember it going around the 8 portables and go on to the parade square. 9 Q: Did you happen to notice the -- the 10 path, if you will, or -- that the bus -- that the bus 11 took once it was within the barracks? Did it go -- did 12 you see it go anywhere? 13 A: No, but it kind of went in a half a 14 circle and parked in front of the drill hall. 15 Q: Do you know whether or did you see 16 the bus make a physical contact with any military 17 vehicles? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you see any -- any incidents 20 involving the -- the members of the bus and members of 21 the military? 22 A: Members of the bus? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I vaguely remember one (1) of them 25 going towards the bus.
1071 Q: One (1) of who? 2 A: One (1) of the military personnel, 3 approaching the entrance, the side entrance door of the 4 bus. 5 Q: All right. What -- what, if 6 anything, happened? 7 A: Harley got sprayed in the eyes with 8 pepper spray. 9 Q: Did you see any action or anything 10 that -- that may have given rise to that, to him being 11 sprayed with pepper spray? 12 A: No. 13 Q: What -- what was his -- Harley's 14 reaction, based on your observation? 15 A: I -- I think that he was very 16 surprised. 17 Q: Okay. But I'm asking you to tell us 18 what you saw in terms of any reaction? 19 A: He -- he seemed like he didn't -- he 20 was surprised that he got sprayed in the eyes. 21 Q: Okay. All right. Were there any -- 22 did other people, aboriginal people come into the 23 barracks after the initial entry that you've described, 24 more than twenty (20) people? 25 A: I believe so, after a while.
1081 Q: Do you recall whether there were any 2 members who were not from Kettle and Stoney Point being 3 at the barracks on that day? 4 A: Who were not from Kettle and Stoney 5 Point -- not that I can remember. 6 Q: All right. Were you aware of -- did 7 you witness any -- any altercations between members of 8 the military and members of your group? 9 A: I'm sure it was Lincoln Jackson 10 (phonetic) coming out of the drill hall on a forklift and 11 one (1) of the army personnel running alongside of that 12 forklift, and they were trying to pepper-spray him and I 13 think he got a little bit in his eye also. 14 Q: Now, to your knowledge, did this 15 forklift belong to the military base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And, to your -- based on your 18 observation, could you tell what -- where Lincoln Jackson 19 was going, with this forklift? 20 A: No. I think he was just coming out, 21 just to ride around on the parade square, I think. 22 Q: Well, did it appear to you that he 23 was chasing any military personnel or any military 24 vehicles? 25 A: I can't recall.
1091 Q: When he came out with the forklift 2 did he -- did he go through a wall or anything like that, 3 or or -- 4 A: Yeah. He came through the sliding -- 5 like a garage door. It was open a little bit on the 6 bottom. And, well, he came out of there fast, it made 7 the garage door just, you know, fly up. 8 Q: So, he kind of drove through the 9 garage door? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Is that fair? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. Did you see any other 14 altercations involving members of your group and the 15 military? 16 A: Other than myself yell -- yelling at 17 the one (1) guy who was standing there. 18 Q: What were you yelling about? 19 A: I was asking him how come his leg was 20 shaking and why he was standing like that. He was 21 standing like he was ready for a fight or like he really 22 wanted to jump on somebody. 23 Q: And that was your impression? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it was based on how he was
1101 standing? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did he say anything to you? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did he make any movement towards you? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did he go away? 8 A: After a while he did. 9 Q: Now, are you aware of -- were you 10 aware of any discussions or negotiations occurring 11 between members of your group and members of the 12 military, on that day? 13 A: Yes, I did. It was in the -- one (1) 14 of the churches. It was either the Catholic church or the 15 Protestant church, now. Nevertheless, it's in the 16 building that Marcia Simon and my aunt Melva occupied. 17 Q: Afterwards? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Who was doing the talking for the 20 Stoney Point group? 21 A: Everybody was there. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: Everybody who was there, I -- I 24 recall Marcia and Melva doing most of the talking. 25 Q: And that would be Marcia Simon?
1111 A: Simon, yeah. 2 Q: And Melva George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And do you know what the 5 result of those discussions were? 6 A: The guy asked if anyone was in any of 7 these buildings that would be big enough to accommodate 8 most of the people who were sitting in the room. And I 9 said, yes. I was in the building two (2) doors over, 10 which used to be a kitchen -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- then I said, I was inside that one 13 and it would be big enough to hold most people. 14 Q: All right. And was the idea, 15 initially, that -- that the military would occupy certain 16 buildings and that the people from your group would 17 occupy other buildings? 18 A: I would say so, because they never 19 said they were leaving. 20 Q: All right. Did that -- did that 21 arrangement ultimately result, or occur? 22 A: For a few -- for a few hours, until 23 the military left. 24 Q: Do you know why it is that the 25 military ultimately left a few hours later?
1121 A: Not right off-hand. I can't recall 2 how I knew. It was probably from information from 3 someone else that they wanted to avoid a confrontation 4 with the people who were going to stay. 5 Q: All right. And did the military turn 6 over any keys to the Stoney Point group, before they 7 left, to your knowledge? 8 A: I never seen, I know there was a big 9 box of keys that were all numbered, given to someone. I 10 don't know if they were given to them that day or if they 11 come across them later. 12 Q: What happened after the military left 13 that night? How -- what activities went on? 14 A: Hanging out, walking around chucking 15 things out. I remember Rod -- Roderick telling some of 16 the young guys to go turn all the lights on in all the 17 buildings. 18 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that 19 your brother was, at this time, exercising influence 20 within the community there? 21 A: Not so much maybe in the community, 22 but with his own family, like brothers and sisters -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- nephews. 25 Q: All right. And by the night time,
1131 approximately how many people would you estimate were 2 occupying the barracks? 3 A: I estimate more than twenty (20). 4 Q: All right. Now, did any members from 5 the Ontario Provincial Police appear at the Army Camp 6 that day? 7 A: Not that I can recall. 8 Q: To your knowledge, did anyone, either 9 from the military, or from the Ontario Provincial Police, 10 advise you or -- or your group, that you were trespassing 11 or that you should leave the barracks? 12 A: No. 13 Q: On reflection, does that surprise 14 you? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Why not? 17 A: Because they -- they know that people 18 were moved off the land, and probably some day that they 19 will return. 20 Q: Now, were you aware, in the end of 21 July or August of '95, had you been aware of any plans by 22 the military to leave the barracks in any event, that 23 they were going to leave anyways? 24 A: No, I wasn't aware. 25 Q: All right. Did you have any contact
1141 with Bruce Elijah or Bob Antone at all, in the summer of 2 '95? 3 A: Just to see them and say hi. 4 Q: And who was "him"? 5 A: Bruce or Bob. 6 Q: All right. And where would -- where 7 did you see them? 8 A: Around Glenn's. 9 Q: Glenn George's place? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And was this prior to the occupation 12 of the barracks? 13 A: No. I don't -- I -- no. We were 14 living in the barracks when I first seen them. 15 Q: Was this prior to the occupation of 16 the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you know why Bruce Elijah was -- 19 was visiting or meeting with Glenn George during that 20 time? 21 A: For support. 22 Q: All right. Now, did you -- did you 23 stay over in the barracks the first night, July 29th? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And how long did you stay over for?
1151 A: Probably a few days. I stayed in the 2 other church with Gina Tessier. 3 Q: Okay. Did you have any of your 4 children with you? 5 A: Yes, I had both my daughters, Phoebe 6 and Julie. 7 Q: All right. At this time, in -- in the 8 end of July and August of 1995, did you still have a -- a 9 permanent residence in Thedford? 10 A: July? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And August? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And so, did you actually 16 move into the barracks prior to the Park occupation or 17 did you travel back and forth? 18 A: I -- I travelled back and forth, and 19 stayed at different locations. 20 Q: Did you happen to stay with Dudley 21 George at all? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: Now did you have any interactions 24 with the military or the OPP between July 30th -- I'm 25 going to the next day now -- July 30th and September the
1161 3rd, 1995, so before the Park occupation? 2 A: No, I didn't. 3 Q: During the time that you visited 4 and/or stayed overnight at the barracks, did you see any 5 guns or firearms of any kind at the built-up area? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Are you -- were you -- are you aware 8 as to whether hunting activities were still being carried 9 out on the Camp Ipperwash lands, during this period? 10 A: No, because deer meat is not that 11 good to eat in the summertime. 12 Q: Why is that? 13 A: I don't know why. 14 Q: Okay. You just know that? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Based on your experience? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: All right. Did you observe any 19 helicopter activity over the built-up area, that you saw 20 or were aware of during this time frame, this is prior to 21 the Park occupation? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And I think that you indicated that - 24 - that Les Jewel moved into the barracks; is that what -- 25 did you say that?
1171 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And that Russ Jewel would 3 -- would stay with -- with either him or with Wayne Pine, 4 I think you said? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you say -- or with who else? 7 A: Glenn. 8 Q: Glenn George? I just -- who's Wayne 9 Pine? Do you know? 10 A: He -- he was a supporter that came 11 from Michigan. I don't exactly know the exact area where 12 he lives, what it's called. But it's by Cross Village. 13 Another town in the same vicinity would be Pedoski 14 (phonetic). 15 Q: All right. And do you know, do you 16 have an understanding as to what his role, if any was, 17 aside from being a supporter? You've told us about Russ 18 Jewel being a fire keeper. Do you know whether Wayne 19 Pine had any such role? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And how about Les Jewel? Did he have 22 any role, or do you know why he was there? 23 A: No. 24 Q: To your knowledge, did either Buck, 25 Isaac "Buck" Doxtator or Gabriel Doxtator were -- did
1181 they move into the barracks? 2 A: I don't think they took up permanent 3 residence as to -- as to meaning that they were going to 4 stay there, like, you know, for the rest of their life. 5 Q: Did you see them visiting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you know whether they were 8 assigned quarters? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Commissioner, I wonder if you would 11 just refresh my memory as to when we might have lunch 12 today? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is as 14 good a time as any, if you would like to. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I am -- yes, I'm ready 16 to move into another area. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then let's 18 break now. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. Take an hour and fifteen (15) minutes. 22 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 23 Inquiry stands adjourned until one twenty-five. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 12:09 p.m.
1191 --- Upon Resuming at 1:28 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Ms. George, were you part of the 10 group who entered the Ipperwash Provincial Park on 11 September the 4th, 1995? 12 A: Yes, I was. 13 Q: How did you find out that this was 14 going to happen? 15 A: I didn't find out until the very 16 moment it was gonna happen. 17 Q: And how -- how did you find out? 18 A: When the -- initial attempt was made 19 to go into the Park. 20 Q: Had you been visiting at the barracks 21 at this time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Were you aware of any prior 24 discussions concerning the possibility of going into the 25 Park on -- on Labour Day?
1201 A: Not that I -- that I can recall. I'm 2 not sure if Rose Mannings mentioned anything on her way 3 to the beach from Thedford. 4 Q: You mean back on July 29th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. I think you may have 7 indicated that there was another conversation as well 8 that made reference to the possibility of entering the 9 Park, and -- and when was that going to happen? Do you 10 remember earlier this morning you talked about that? 11 A: It was right on -- right the beach. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Can I back up a little bit? When I 14 mentioned Rose, it was the morning, coming from Thedford, 15 is -- is when I can't really recall if she had mentioned 16 anything. But prior to that, I'd have to say that there 17 were no specific plans to actually go on there on a 18 specific date. 19 Q: I appreciate that -- that 20 clarification. Is it fair to assume then, that there had 21 been general discussions about the possibility, at some 22 point in time, of entering into the Park? 23 A: Yes, I would say as a possibility, 24 yes. 25 Q: And were you part of some of these
1211 conversations? Or did you hear them? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Not that I can really pinpoint. 6 Q: All right. Had you formed the 7 impression that eventually the Park would be occupied? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what was the basis of your 10 impression? 11 A: The basis of my impression? 12 Q: In other words, what factors led to 13 the forming of that impression? 14 A: That the land where the former 15 Provincial Park is located, is in -- within the 16 boundaries of the Stoney Point namesake, and the fact 17 that there are people buried there. My father wouldn't 18 sell his father's grave. And I would not sell my 19 father's grave. 20 Q: All right. Do you recall what time 21 of day you entered into the Park, on Monday, September 22 the 4th? 23 A: Late afternoon, around possibly 24 suppertime. 25 Q: Can you tell us what your point of
1221 entry into the Park was? 2 A: My point of entry into the Park was 3 on the west side, through a gate off of Matheson Drive. 4 Q: All right. So where the Matheson 5 Drive runs east-west along the Park boundary, between the 6 Park and the Army Camp, there's a gate on the west side 7 of the Park? 8 A: Yes. It runs in both directions, 9 Matheson Drive does. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you. When you entered 11 the Park through this gate, were there any barriers to 12 your entry? Was, for example, the gate locked or, was 13 it -- 14 A: Yes, there was a chain around the 15 gate. 16 Q: And what did you do about the chain 17 around the gate, if anything? 18 A: I didn't have to do anything. 19 Someone else cut it. 20 Q: Someone else from the Stoney Point 21 group? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you recall who? 24 A: One (1) of my nephews, either Dave -- 25 Abraham, David, or Nicolas Cottrelle.
1231 Q: And did you enter, then, the Park 2 with that -- with those individuals? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: When you entered the Park, were there 5 already people from the Stoney Point group in there, or 6 were you amongst the first to go? 7 A: I was amongst the first to go in, but 8 also I know that Bert Mannings was standing with the 9 police, who were in the Park at the time, over on the 10 north -- the very northwest corner. 11 Q: Of the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Would that -- would that be -- 14 A: In the same vicinity where Dudley was 15 yelling at the police officers. 16 Q: All right. Was it actually on the 17 beach, then? 18 A: I was right in the Park, they were 19 right in the Park. 20 Q: In the Park. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Okay. Near the beach and the road -- 23 sandy road access? 24 A: Yes, within -- with -- in side the 25 fence.
1241 Q: Okay. And is Bert Manning related to 2 Rose Manning? 3 A: Yes, he's her son. 4 Q: Was Bert Manning a resident at the 5 barracks at this time? 6 A: Yes, he was. 7 Q: And was he considered a member of the 8 self-identified Stoney Point group by the community? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. Did you overhear his 11 conversation? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You indicated that there were some 14 OPP officers in the Park when you entered? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Approximately how many did you see? 17 A: Approximately five (5). 18 Q: Were these officers uniformed? 19 A: Yes, they were. 20 Q: Do you recall what kind of uniform 21 they were wearing? 22 A: Dark clothing. 23 Q: Were any police cruisers within the 24 Park, that you could see? 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: And approximately how many did you 2 see? 3 A: If I can recall correctly, there was 4 more than one (1). 5 Q: When you entered the Park, where did 6 you go? 7 A: Straight to the very other end of the 8 Park. 9 Q: The east end of the Park? 10 A: Yes. Along Parkway. 11 Q: Along? 12 A: Parkway Drive, what they call the 13 sandy parking lot, -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- to the very end, -- 16 Q: All right. 17 A: -- of the other side, I would say. 18 Q: So, do you mean that you were on the 19 west side of the Park, by Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when you said you went to the 22 other side, do you mean that you went to the south end of 23 the Park, where Matheson Drive was, or did you go up to 24 the beach and -- 25 A: In the vicinity of the Park store.
1261 Q: The Park store. Okay. Why did you 2 go there? 3 A: Probably because it was the other 4 end. 5 Q: Did you -- did you witness any 6 incident involving your brother Roderick and the OPP 7 officers and -- and the police cruiser that -- that night 8 or that afternoon? 9 A: I -- I never seen Roderick damage the 10 windshield. 11 Q: All right. Did you witness any other 12 or any interaction as between the occupants and any 13 members of the Provincial Police, other than the one (1) 14 you've told us concerning Bert Manning on September the 15 4th? 16 A: Just at that time when we got to the 17 other side of the Park, when I left there and went to the 18 Base and I come back and there were people yelling at the 19 police to leave. 20 Q: All right. So -- so that I 21 understand a sense of the timing of these events, you 22 were in the Park, initially around the Park store for 23 approximately how long? 24 A: I don't know. I -- I was there for a 25 few hours but I left for just -- not too long, to go up
1271 to the built-up area to get some water for some coffee, 2 and I went back. 3 Q: And is that when you witnessed this 4 further altercation, when you came back from getting 5 water for coffee? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And about how long was that after 8 your initial entry? 9 A: I -- I would say not more than a half 10 hour. 11 Q: All right. Can you describe then 12 what it was that you witnessed when you returned to the 13 Park after getting water for the coffee? 14 A: I witnessed the police and Les 15 Kobayashi still being there. I seen -- I'm sure it was 16 Les himself hand my brother Roderick some keys. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: And I didn't know that they were the 19 keys to the maintenance shed until later on that evening, 20 when everybody walked over there. And -- I understand 21 that they gave him the keys so the door wouldn't be 22 broken. 23 Q: You mentioned Les Kobayashi; do you 24 know who he is? 25 A: Yes.
1281 Q: Can you tell us? 2 A: He's an oriental type looking man who 3 was a Park superintendent of Ipperwash Park. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And I've seen his picture in the 6 paper one (1) time. 7 Q: So, he was a Park official, to your 8 knowledge? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, you told me that when you first 11 re-entered the Park you saw members of your group yelling 12 at the police officers to get off the land? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And then -- 15 A: To leave. 16 Q: Sorry. 17 A: To leave. 18 Q: To leave. And then -- and then Mr. 19 Kobayashi handed over keys to your brother Roderick? 20 A: Yeah. I remember going over to Les 21 and talking to him myself, and asking them how come they 22 were still there. And he replied that they were waiting 23 for their boss. 24 Q: Okay. To give them orders or 25 direction?
1291 A: I -- I imagine, yeah. 2 Q: So, you spoke to him yourself? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you have any other conversations 5 with him or with any of the members of the Ontario 6 Provincial Police? 7 A: Not that I can recall. 8 Q: Do you recall who it was who was 9 yelling at the police officers when you came into the 10 Park? 11 A: My nephews and my cousin. 12 Q: Nephews and your cousin? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Can you just -- can you tell me who - 15 - which ones? 16 A: Not to be specific. I could just 17 name a few that were within the group. 18 Q: In other words, who were there 19 yelling -- 20 A: At the time. 21 Q: -- at police officers or just 22 happened to be in the Park? 23 A: That were there at the time. 24 Q: All right. Tell me those people. 25 A: I remember David Abraham (phonetic).
1301 I remember Wesley. I can't be positive of -- about 2 Harley George, and Warren George Junior was there. 3 Q: Would that be Waldo? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: My brother Elwood was -- came along 7 after -- after I phoned to my dad's house. I can't 8 remember if they were there or -- or if they came along 9 later. 10 Q: And your brother Roderick, was he 11 there, in the initial group? 12 A: Yes, he was there. 13 Q: How many -- 14 A: His -- his wife and their three (3) 15 younger girls. 16 Q: His wife's name is? 17 A: Gina. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Brenda Frampton (phonetic) was there. 20 Cully was there. Because I remember meeting them on the 21 bridge when I was going back up to the built-up area to 22 get water for coffee and I was kind of mad at myself when 23 I got back because they already had water for coffee. 24 Q: And by Cully do you mean Carolyn 25 George?
1311 A: Yes. 2 Q: And who is Brenda Frampton? 3 A: She used to be an acquaintance of 4 Glenn George. 5 Q: Okay. How many people do you 6 estimate were in the Park, approximately, during the 7 evening of September the 4th? 8 A: Without the police, I would say not 9 more than thirty (30). 10 Q: So, about thirty (30) residents from 11 the self-identified Stoney Point group? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Approximately? 14 A: And others who come along. 15 Q: And other -- supporters? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Well, and who were those others who 18 you saw in the Park that Monday night who were from other 19 First Nation communities? 20 A: Russ and Les Jewel. Some -- Rose 21 Manning's daughters, their husbands or boyfriend, or 22 some -- 23 Q: All right. Remember their names or-- 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
1321 A: Just Jane, Jane Mannings and I don't 2 -- I'm not sure if she had anybody with her or not. 3 Q: All right. Did you see -- did you 4 see Buck Doxtator there, on the 4th, or Gabriel Doxtator? 5 A: No, I can't recall them. 6 Q: Do you recall whether you saw Larry 7 Dutch French or -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- Charles Chuck George? 10 A: Not on the 4th, no. 11 Q: How about Wayne Pine? 12 A: Wayne -- I can't recall if he was 13 there or not. 14 Q: Do you recall seeing Al George? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Now, just for my information, Al 17 George, was he also known as Lorenzo George (phonetic); 18 do you know? 19 A: Yeah. I think so, yeah. 20 Q: All right. And, do you know, is he - 21 - is he alive today or -- 22 A: No, he passed away. 23 Q: Did you bring your young daughters 24 into the Park that day? 25 A: Yes.
1331 Q: Phoebe (phonetic) and Julie? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you think you were bringing 4 your daughters into a potentially dangerous situation? 5 A: No, I did not. 6 Q: Why not? 7 A: Because it was supposed to be a 8 peaceful occupation. 9 Q: And how do you know that? 10 A: Because we decided amongst ourselves 11 that it would be peaceful. 12 Q: And when you say you decided amongst 13 yourselves, when was that decided and amongst whom? 14 A: Right from 1993, when we went -- when 15 everyone went onto the ranges -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- as well as the built-up area. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: All of it, it was intentionally to be 20 peaceful. 21 Q: All right. How long did you stay at 22 the Park that evening? 23 A: All night. 24 Q: Where did you sleep? 25 A: In the maintenance building. My
1341 brother Roderick wanted the young guys to stay there to 2 make sure that nothing would be stolen. 3 Q: Okay. Just give me one (1) moment 4 and I'll -- I haven't plugged in my -- my computer has 5 been unplugged. Just give me a second. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I'm just showing you, behind you, a 10 picture of -- of a map of Ipperwash Park. And this was 11 Exhibit P-61. And I wonder if you can -- do you have the 12 laser pen up there? That's it. 13 Can you just point to the general location 14 of the maintenance building, please, if it's on that map? 15 All right. And you're pointing then to where the word, 16 Maintenance, is written? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And that's where you 19 stayed all night? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, how is it that you came to stay 22 there? 23 A: Like I -- I just said that Roderick 24 George and my brother wanted the young guys to stay there 25 to make sure that nothing was being stolen. And as the
1351 hours went by I thought I would make a nice home for me. 2 And I told the young guys that -- if they wanted to 3 leave, that I would stay there; because I know how young 4 people are, they don't stay in one (1) spot for very 5 long. 6 Q: Okay. Did you move into the 7 maintenance building? 8 A: Yes, I did, the next day. 9 Q: And who did you move in with? 10 A: My daughters. 11 Q: Did anyone else stay with you at the 12 maintenance building? 13 A: Russ Jewel imposed himself. 14 Q: When you say he imposed himself, what 15 do you mean? 16 A: He stayed there too but not all the 17 time, and I never asked him to. 18 Q: All right. Did he sleep over at the 19 maintenance building? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you indicated that you stayed at 22 the maintenance building that first evening; did -- did 23 you have your daughters with you there too? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And did Russ Jewel stay over that
1361 night? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Can you just describe for me in a 4 general way what the interior of the maintenance building 5 looks like, or looked like then, in terms of number of 6 rooms and floors? 7 A: It has two (2) garages, two (2) 8 bathrooms, a separate shower room, a kitchen area with a 9 sink, a fridge, and another separate room to the north, 10 and it had a side door on the north part of the building, 11 and all the walls were tin. 12 And it had an upstairs for storage. And 13 it had a little part where they would store things with a 14 gate, a locking screen gate door. 15 Q: All right. And was there in fact any 16 equipment or appliances in the building? 17 A: There were no grass-cutting 18 equipment, there was a fridge, there were -- they had 19 hookup for a washer and a dryer, I think. They had 20 wrenches, some tools, books, a couple of telephones, an 21 air conditioner in the -- in the kitchen part where there 22 is a sink, some chalkboards, and the rest I would call 23 junk. 24 Q: All right. And was there any -- any 25 vehicles left behind?
1371 A: No cars, no trucks, no riding 2 lawnmowers. 3 Q: Were there any -- anything that you 4 would consider to be weapons left behind in that -- in 5 that maintenance shed? 6 A: I don't know if there was any 7 shovels. I -- I can't recall if there was any shovels. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But as to weapons, I really don't 10 know what you mean as weapons. 11 Q: For example, were there any -- any 12 flare guns or any hunting rifles or any -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- knives? 15 A: There might have been a knife around 16 there. I'm not sure about a knife. But there was no 17 guns and.. no. 18 Q: All right. Were there -- was there a 19 gas tank near that maintenance building? 20 A: Yes. It was across, by a little -- 21 next to a little storage shed. 22 Q: All right. And was that, to your 23 knowledge, was that gas tank filled with gas? 24 A: There was quite a bit of gas in 25 there.
1381 Q: All right. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was that gas accessible? In 4 other words, could you use it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, to your knowledge, did people 7 come and use that gas, that you saw? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And can you tell me what -- for what 10 purposes, so far as you know, they were using the gas 11 for? 12 A: They were filling vehicles up, mainly 13 the bus, the OPP WHO car, personal cars. 14 Q: Did you see anybody fill gas into 15 containers? 16 A: Yes, I did; a gentleman from Kettle 17 Point. 18 Q: What was his name? 19 A: His -- I'm not sure if his real name 20 is Joe but his nickname is Joe the Crow. 21 Q: Sorry? 22 A: His nickname is Joe the Crow. I'm 23 not sure -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- of his real name. I'm -- it may
1391 be Joe also. 2 Q: All right. And was he -- how many 3 containers did he fill up, to your knowledge? 4 A: At least four (4). 5 Q: How big were they? 6 A: They were quite big, about that long 7 and about like this. 8 Q: Okay. Now, I wouldn't know how to 9 estimate the number of litres or gallons; can you give me 10 a sense? 11 A: Maybe twenty (20) gallons. 12 Q: All right. In total or each? 13 A: One (1) can. 14 Q: Did that cause you any concern that 15 he was coming and -- and filling up these containers? 16 A: Yes, it did. 17 Q: Why? 18 A: Because most of the gas was being 19 used to patrol the area by my cousins and my nephews and 20 he came back the second time. Then I found out that you 21 could control the gas pump from the electric panel box so 22 I simply shut it off and he come over to the door and -- 23 and said, That thing wouldn't work and I told him, Oh, 24 there was probably no more gas, then. And so he -- well, 25 he left and never came back for any more gas.
1401 Q: Okay. And do you know whether -- do 2 you know where he was taking those gas tanks? 3 A: Back to his house in Kettle Point. I 4 believe he was using it for his fishing boat. 5 Q: And how would you know that? 6 A: Because he fishes. 7 Q: Okay. Did he tell you that's what he 8 was using it for? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Is this someone who -- who was 11 occupying the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, we've heard evidence from Marlin 14 Simon that he also filled some containers with gas. 15 Are you aware of that? 16 A: No, I can't recall. 17 Q: All right. I just want to talk about 18 Mr. Russ Jewel a little bit more now. 19 What was your relationship to him, if -- 20 if any? 21 A: I -- I was trying to be his 22 girlfriend. 23 Q: Okay. And do you have an 24 understanding as to why he was at the Park as we've 25 talked about why he was at the barracks, but do you know
1411 why he was at the Park? 2 A: Going along with everyone else. 3 Q: Did he play any particular role at 4 the Park that you are aware of? 5 A: No. 6 Q: To your knowledge, was he a member of 7 a warrior society? 8 A: No, not to my knowledge. 9 Q: Or a member of the Peacekeepers? 10 A: Peacekeepers? The Oneida 11 Peacekeepers? No. 12 Q: All right. You told me that he was 13 fulfilling a role as a fire keeper at the barracks? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did he -- he did not continue that 16 role at the Park? 17 A: I'm -- I'm not sure if he went to a 18 fire in the Park. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: There was other people there. I 21 wasn't with him all the time when he left the maintenance 22 building and went to where everyone else was. 23 Q: All right. Were there any sacred 24 fires lit in the Park to your knowledge? 25 A: I believe so by the store or some
1421 place. I remember -- vaguely remember Robert Isaac 2 telling me that he lit three (3) fires. 3 Q: Now, Robert Isaac, do you know what 4 community he came from? 5 A: He comes from Walpole Island. 6 Q: Walpole Island? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And I under -- is -- is - 9 - Mr. Isaac deceased? To your knowledge? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Based on your knowledge, do you know 12 why Robert Isaac was at the Park? 13 A: He was a supporter. 14 Q: All right. How do you know that? 15 A: By being there and talking with him. 16 Q: All right. Did he -- you said he lit 17 some fires. Did he play any particular role in that 18 respect? 19 A: Yes. He's Potawatomi and we are 20 members of Three Fires Confederacy. 21 Q: And just explain how that is -- how 22 that connects to him lighting fires. 23 A: Traditional aspect. 24 Q: So, were the lighting of the fires 25 symbolic in some way?
1431 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you tell me how? 3 A: To represent three (3) nations. 4 Q: Okay. And which are the three (3) 5 Nations? 6 A: Odowa (phonetic), Potawatomi and 7 Chippewa I think. Wayne Pine was an Odowa. 8 Q: Was he? 9 A: I'm sure he was. 10 Q: Okay. And was he also at the Park? 11 A: I can't recall. 12 Q: Okay. Now, how long did you stay in 13 the maintenance building? How long did you use that as 14 your home? 15 A: Either until March or May of '96. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: Spring time, early spring. 18 Q: And did you sleep over at the 19 maintenance building on each of the evenings of September 20 4th and September 5th -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And at any time, while you 25 were in the maintenance building, did you see any guns or
1441 firearms of any kind within the building? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you see anyone bring guns or 4 firearms to the building? 5 A: No, because I would have told them to 6 take them back. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And where did you -- where did you 11 sleep within the maintenance building on Monday, 12 September the 4th? You told us you slept over, but which 13 room did you sleep in? 14 A: The next room to where -- what I used 15 to call my kitchen. 16 Q: So, is it the room that was next to 17 the room that had the -- 18 A: It would be -- 19 Q: -- a fridge in it? 20 A: -- it would be the northeast -- 21 northwest corner of the building, if you're facing the 22 building. 23 Q: Okay. If you're facing the front 24 entrance? 25 A: Yes.
1451 Q: And to your knowledge, how -- what 2 was the source of heating in the maintenance building, 3 between September 4th and 6th, 1995? 4 A: There was a propane furnace there, 5 and it was going, I would say roughly, three (3) weeks to 6 a month. 7 Q: Until it ran out? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And what happened after it ran out? 10 A: I -- I got a stove given to me from 11 my cousin, Maynard Crispy George and my aunt Lilsa 12 (phonetic). 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And about the chimney, I was trying 15 to remember where that came from, but I can't. 16 Q: All right. So the -- was it a wood 17 burning stove? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: All right, and so that was put into 20 place some weeks after September the 6th, 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Now, did you see any guns 23 or firearms of any kind in the Park on September the 4th? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: Were you aware of there being any
1461 guns or firearms in the Park on September the 4th, 1995? 2 A: No, I was not aware, and I tried to 3 keep in touch with happenings and stuff going on 4 around -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Why were you keeping -- 6 A: -- me. 7 Q: -- in touch with what was going on? 8 A: So I'd know what was going on. 9 Q: Okay. And did you have any 10 discussions or receive any directions with respect to 11 whether or not there should be guns or firearms in the 12 Park? 13 A: Oh, there was not to be any guns or 14 firearms within the Park. 15 Q: Right. And was there -- who was 16 saying that? 17 A: Everyone. 18 Q: Okay. To your knowledge, did either 19 Bruce Elijah and/or Bob Antone play any role in relation 20 to the decision not to have guns in the Park? 21 A: Not that I'm aware of. 22 Q: And, I may have asked you this 23 earlier but, did you see either of those two (2) 24 gentlemen in the Park at anytime between September 4th 25 and 6th?
1471 A: Not -- no, not personally that I can 2 recall. 3 Q: Did you hear any gunshots or sounds 4 similar to gunshots at all during the evening of 5 September the 4th, 1995? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you hear any firecrackers that 8 night? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Approximately how far away is the 11 maintenance building from the Park store and kiosk? 12 A: I would say not even a ten (10) 13 minute walk. 14 Q: Okay. Could you see the Park store 15 from the maintenance building? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Would you be able to see the 18 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive 19 from the maintenance building? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Is that because of -- why is that? 22 A: There's a bush in between there and a 23 creek that goes through there also. 24 Q: All right. Now, as of September the 25 4th did you still maintain a residence at Thedford?
1481 A: On September 4th, yes. 2 Q: All right. Did you participate in 3 any traditional ceremonies or rituals on September the 4 4th, upon entering or when you were in the Park? 5 A: Not that I can readily recall. 6 Q: All right. And where did you spend 7 the majority of your time on September the 4th, after 8 entering the Park? 9 A: By the Park store. 10 Q: All right. And then what time did 11 you go to the -- to bed, to the maintenance building? 12 A: Before 2:00 in the morning I would 13 say. 14 Q: Okay. And did you stay there all 15 night? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what did you do the next day? 18 A: I was awoken by the side door. 19 Somebody came in and I went out and it was Rose, and she 20 looked surprised when I came out of the door behind her. 21 And I just told her that Roderick wanted the young guys 22 or someone to stay over to make sure that nothing gets 23 ripped off. 24 Q: Nothing got stolen? 25 A: Yeah.
1491 Q: Okay. Is that the function you 2 assumed? 3 A: Pardon? 4 Q: Was that your job? 5 A: Yeah. I guess I would say that, 6 yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And you're talking about Rose 8 Manning? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And what did you do over 11 the course of that day, Tuesday, September the 5th? 12 A: It wasn't too long after that when 13 two (2) more guys came in, and they were from Kettle 14 Point. And I told them the same thing I told Rose. And 15 I ran upstairs and got them each a great big roll of 16 toilet paper and a handful of nails and gave it them and 17 told them to be on their way. 18 Q: All right. And were they on their 19 way? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you -- do you know why they had 22 come? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you know who they were? 25 A: Yes.
1501 Q: Can you tell me? 2 A: One (1) was my cousin Laverne Smith 3 (phonetic) and the other guy was Terry (phonetic), 4 George's brother, Rickie (phonetic) or Richard, and they 5 lived beside each other on the 14th Concession on Kettle 6 Point. 7 Q: All right. And were these 8 individuals part of the occupation? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. What else -- what did you 11 do during the course of the day? 12 A: I hung out. I borrowed Russ Jewel's 13 car and moved my stuff from Thedford to the maintenance 14 shed, cooked supper for my girls and kept an eye on the 15 gas. I was keeping -- recording how -- how much litres 16 were pulled out of that tank just for my own interest. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: But I never kept the papers, I 19 eventually threw them out. 20 Q: Do you know in total how much gas was 21 taken from that tank? Do you remember that? 22 A: No, but I -- it lasted about, oh, 23 roughly three (3) weeks and to my knowledge that I can 24 recall, the bus and the "OPP WHO" car probably took about 25 seventy (70) gallons.
1511 Q: Okay. And then what's the basis of 2 your -- your understanding there? How do you know that? 3 Is that from -- 4 A: Because -- because they have a metre 5 -- they had a metre on the gas -- what would you call 6 it -- 7 Q: The pump? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. Okay. And you recall 10 recording that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that you 13 borrowed Russ Jewel's car to get some personal items from 14 Thedford? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you recall approximately how many 17 trips you made between the maintenance building and 18 Thedford on -- on Tuesday? 19 A: On Tuesday? Not to be specific, and 20 exact, but it would be more than one (1). 21 Q: More than one (1) trip? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And did -- were you 24 unpacking those goods that day? 25 A: Some.
1521 Q: All right. 2 A: I left the majority in boxes because 3 you can't hang too much stuff on tin walls. 4 Q: Okay. Did you have your children -- 5 your girls -- with you as you -- when you made these 6 trips back and forth? 7 A: I'm pretty sure I had the both of 8 them. After a time, Phoebe went -- went to live or to 9 stay with my sister, Joyce, so she could go to school. 10 She was going to start Kindergarten. 11 Q: All right. When did she go to -- to 12 move -- to live with your sister? 13 A: I'm not sure exactly what day it was, 14 but it was within that first week, I'm pretty sure. 15 Q: Okay. Now, when you -- well, first 16 of all, can you tell me what car Russ Jewel was driving 17 at this time? 18 A: It was a dark blue Sat -- Dodge 19 Satellite. 20 Q: All right. Did he have licence 21 plates on it, to your knowledge? 22 A: Yeah, and they are still on there. 23 Q: They're still on there? 24 A: Yeah, the car's in the junk yard. 25 Q: Okay.
1531 A: At Aazhoodena. 2 Q: All right. Did you have to pass 3 through any police checkpoints when you left the Park and 4 Army Camp area on your way to Thedford? 5 A: There was a police checkpoint there, 6 but I didn't have to pass through it, I rode on the other 7 side of the road. 8 Q: Okay. And when you -- firstly can 9 you tell me where this police checkpoint was? What road? 10 A: It was on Army Camp, right outside 11 the gate, just past where the mail boxes are now. 12 Q: All right. And how many police cars 13 were there? 14 A: I can't recall, but there was more 15 than one (1). 16 Q: And when you say you rode around it, 17 you mean that you rode -- got around the police check? 18 A: There was nobody there going like 19 this to come this way and I wasn't going through there 20 beside I had no intentions on talking to those people. 21 Q: All right. So you -- you avoided 22 going through the police check? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you did that by driving on the 25 wrong side of the road around them?
1541 A: Yeah, I believe I drove on the other 2 side of a police cruiser next to the ditch. 3 Q: Why were you concerned about not 4 talking to the police? 5 A: I don't know. I just didn't want to. 6 Q: And was there any reaction from the 7 police when you went around their roadblock -- or their - 8 - their checkpoint? 9 A: Yeah, the four (4) cruisers 10 immediately come after me down the road and stopped me on 11 the other side of Highway 21, still on Army Camp Road. 12 Q: So you were travelling towards 13 Thedford on Highway 21? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And who was in your car? 16 A: My girls, I'm pretty sure. Unless I 17 got a babysitter, but I had a passenger with me and her 18 name was Darlene Fisher, or her name is Darlene Fisher. 19 Q: And can you tell me where Darlene 20 Fisher is from? 21 A: I believe she's from Walpole Island. 22 Q: Was she at the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you know why she was there? 25 A: As a supporter and she came to visit
1551 Robert Isaac. 2 Q: Now, did you stop for the Police when 3 they came behind you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And what happened? 6 A: They asked me how come I didn't stop 7 back there, and I said I don't have no reason to talk to 8 you, and I told them I was going to Thedford to move my 9 stuff down to that maintenance building, and I didn't 10 sound pleasant. 11 And they asked me if I could kindly stop 12 at their checkpoint on my way back, and I said, Yes, I 13 guess so. 14 Q: Did they ask you for any form of 15 identification? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did they look -- 18 A: Not that I can recall. 19 Q: -- did they look in your car at all? 20 A: Just through the window, I think. 21 Q: Did they ask you if they could look 22 in your trunk? 23 A: No. 24 Q: No. After you told them that you -- 25 you guess you could stop at their road point --
1561 checkpoint the next time, what happened next? 2 A: When I come back from Thedford I did 3 stop there. And they just looked inside the car and they 4 -- they said I could go. 5 Q: Now, on your way -- on your return 6 trip, did you have any boxes in your car? 7 A: Yeah, the inside was all full. 8 Q: All right. Did they ask to look 9 inside any of the boxes? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Did they ask you what was in the 12 boxes? 13 A: No, I don't think they did. 14 Q: No. Did you have any boxes or items 15 in your trunk? Yeah, as much as I could put in that 16 vehicle, I did. 17 Q: And did they ask to look in your 18 trunk? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And then were you allowed to 21 proceed through the Army Camp gate? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you returned to the maintenance 24 building at this point? 25 A: Yeah. I -- I had to borrow Russ
1571 Jewel's car, because at that time I did not have a 2 vehicle. 3 Q: All right, fair enough. And you said 4 that you recalled that there was more than one trip that 5 you made to Thedford that day. Just give me a sense as 6 to how long it took you to drive to Thedford and back? 7 A: A half hour. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: To just drive there and back. 10 Q: Plus you stopped at your house for a 11 little bit to -- to load it up? 12 A: Yeah, I was -- I couldn't really 13 exactly tell you how long I was at my house. 14 Q: And on your second trip, because you 15 said you knew there was more than one (1) that you made 16 that day. Again, did you stop at the Police check? 17 A: I think so. I think I made more than 18 one (1). 19 Q: Okay. And did you go through the 20 same routine with the Police Officers? 21 A: I can't recall if there was a road 22 block the second time I come out or not. 23 Q: All right. Now, did you observe any 24 other Police presence along Army Camp Road, beside from 25 that one (1) checkpoint that you've described on the
1581 Tuesday? 2 A: On the Tuesday, I don't know if it 3 was the Tuesday, it could be Wednesday, at the end of 4 Matheson Drive, I saw quite a bit of what I thought were 5 Police. I couldn't see their face. All I could see is 6 black clothing and a long line of -- it looked like a -- 7 one (1) big long black train. 8 Q: One (1) big long black -- 9 A: Train. 10 Q: Train? 11 A: Yeah, because their shields looked 12 like windows. 13 Q: Okay. All right, so you saw Police 14 Officers with shields, at that location? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you're not sure if it was Tuesday 17 or Wednesday? 18 A: No, and I also seen on the north side 19 of the store there -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- I think it's called Pineview 22 Store, there was some Police Officers standing around 23 there, and I observed Bert Manning at that same time, 24 standing there talking to the Police. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, Pineview Store, what
1591 road is that on? 2 A: On Army Camp. 3 Q: On Army Camp Road, okay. And did you 4 have any concern at the fact that you observed Bert 5 Manning speaking to Police Officers? 6 A: Yeah, I -- I was wondering what the 7 heck he was doing over there, he should be over here. 8 Q: Did you relay your concern to 9 anybody? 10 A: Yes, I told my brother, Rod. 11 Q: Roderick? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What was his reaction? 14 A: He was a little surprised, and he 15 goes -- he wasn't too -- he wasn't very happy about it, I 16 would say. 17 Q: Okay. Did he tell you he was going 18 to do anything about that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Now, during the time that 21 you enter -- exited the Army Camp and came back into it 22 from Thedford, did any Police Officers tell you that you 23 should not enter the Army Camp? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did any Police Officer tell you that
1601 you should not enter the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You told them that you were going to 4 the maintenance building? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did any Police Officer advise you 7 that you were trespassing? 8 A: No. 9 Q: During the course of Tuesday, you've 10 told me that one (1) of the things you were doing was 11 unpacking some of your personal items at the maintenance 12 building? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Did you -- were you carrying out any 15 other activities at the maintenance building that day? 16 A: Activities? Nothing out of the 17 ordinary, what I would do everyday. 18 Q: Okay, and by which -- what kind of 19 daily routines would you do everyday that you did at the 20 maintenance building? 21 A: Dishes and housecleaning. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Cooking. 24 Q: And did other -- did Park -- other 25 Park occupants come over to the maintenance building from
1611 time to time? 2 A: Oh -- oh, yes, I had many visitors. 3 Q: Okay. And what were the purposes of 4 those visits? 5 A: To come and chat or a lot of people 6 used the phone. 7 Q: Okay. All right. 8 A: The bathroom -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- also. 11 Q: Did you go over to the Park store 12 area at all on Tuesday? 13 A: Yeah, from time to time, to see what 14 was going on. 15 Q: Okay. And how long do you think you 16 spent in that area, during Tuesday? 17 A: Not very long. 18 Q: Okay. Could you see the intersection 19 of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road and the Sandy 20 parking lot area there, from where you were sitting in 21 the Park store area? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. Now, during the time that you 24 were there at the Park store area, what kinds of 25 activities were going on around you?
1621 A: People were eating, some were 2 swimming, some were just walking around. 3 Q: All right, and were there -- did you 4 see women and children in that area? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: Were children -- did you observe 7 children or youth flashing mirrors in the eyes of the 8 Police Officers and members of the media? 9 A: Not when I was there. 10 Q: All right. Did you observe any 11 helicopter activity, on Tuesday? 12 A: I observed helicopter activity, but I 13 can't really be sure if it was on Tuesday or Wednesday. 14 Q: Tuesday or Wednesday? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. Tell me where you saw 17 helicopter activity? 18 A: I -- I left after cleaning up there 19 in the maintenance building. I left and I took the girls 20 over to the candy store on Army Camp Road. And we came 21 back and there was a helicopter hoovering around there, 22 and my younger girl got scared. And I got out of the car 23 and I told here to go inside, there. 24 And I went over there and I was yelling at 25 them, and -- it made me mad because I just got done
1631 cleaning and there was about at least an inch of dust 2 on -- 3 Q: Inside? 4 A: -- inside, on the floor -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- on -- on top of desks. 7 Q: Is this in the maintenance building 8 that you're talking about? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: So you observed the helicopter flying 11 in the vicinity of the maintenance building? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And you told your girls 14 to go inside the building? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And then you started yelling at the 17 helicopter? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Did you do anything else, towards the 20 helicopter? 21 A: They were so low that if I had a rock 22 I would have liked to have thrown it, but I didn't. The 23 only thing I can think of to do was turn around and shoot 24 them the moon. 25 Q: Shoot them the moon?
1641 A: Yeah. 2 Q: You mooned the helicopter? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you observe any -- any video 5 camera on the helicopter? 6 A: Yes. There was a -- a guy in there 7 with a video camera. 8 Q: Okay. All right. And what, if 9 anything, did the -- the helicopter do after you -- you 10 mooned it? 11 A: They left. 12 Q: They left? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Did you -- did you see any other 15 helicopter activity over the course of Tuesday or 16 Wednesday, aside from that incident? 17 A: Not that I can recall. 18 Q: Do you recall whether or not there 19 was anyone else who observed you doing this? 20 A: Yeah. The young guys were getting 21 gas in the bus and they were on the bus. And I think 22 Russ Jewel was pumping gas, either that or he was 23 standing beside the bus and he come over there and he got 24 me to stop what I was doing. 25 Q: Oh, okay. Now, did you -- did you
1651 observe any other police presence during the course of 2 Tuesday? I know you said that you -- you took the girls 3 out to a candy store on Army Camp Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So you had to exit the Park? 6 A: Yeah. We went -- not with the car. 7 I parked on the side of the road and we crawled through - 8 - we went through a hole in the fence. 9 Q: Okay. And along -- was this along 10 the Park or the Army Camp? 11 A: The fence is located in between the 12 two (2) roads. 13 Q: Right. Along -- parallel to Army 14 Camp Road? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And the interior dirt road? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And I'm just wondering, along there, 19 were you in the Park or the -- the Army Camp when you 20 went through the hole? 21 A: That would be the Army Camp. 22 Q: Did you see any -- any -- do you 23 think -- well, did you see any police in that vicinity, 24 as you went across the road? 25 A: No.
1661 Q: No. And you walked to this candy 2 store? 3 A: Yeah, across the road. 4 Q: And did you then come back into the 5 Army Camp the same way? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And, again, were you stopped by any 8 police? 9 A: No. I don't recall seeing anybody 10 along there when I took the girls to the store. 11 Q: Okay. Now did you sleep over at the 12 maintenance building that night, Tuesday night? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And were your girls with 15 you still? 16 A: Both of them, I'm sure they were. 17 Q: And do you know whether or not Russ 18 Jewel slept at the maintenance building that night? 19 A: Yeah, he did. 20 Q: Anyone else sleep in the maintenance 21 building that night? 22 A: No, I don't think so. 23 Q: Did you observe any -- any 24 interactions as between the police and any of the 25 occupants on Tuesday?
1671 A: Not that I could recall. 2 Q: Did you observe any attempts by 3 either Park officials or Police Officers, to communicate 4 with the people in the Park, on Tuesday? 5 A: No, I didn't. 6 Q: And did you observe any attempt by 7 people within the Park, to communicate with the Police or 8 Park officials? 9 A: On Tuesday, did you say? 10 Q: Yes, on Tuesday? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Now, based on your -- your 13 presence in the Park, do you know whether there was any 14 willingness by anyone -- by -- by the group, to have 15 negotiations or discussions with the Police, surrounding 16 the occupation of the Park? 17 A: No, not anybody willingly. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know why that was? 19 A: Because nobody didn't want to talk to 20 them. 21 Q: All right. Did -- did you observe 22 any guns or firearms in the Park on Tuesday, September 23 the 5th? 24 A: No, and at no time did I. 25 Q: All right. Did you hear any gunshots
1681 or any sounds like gunshots in the evening of Tuesday? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you hear any firecrackers that 4 night? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you see any children or others 7 with firecrackers, at the Park? 8 A: I can't recall if I seen children 9 with firecrackers. 10 Q: Okay. Did you witness any incidents 11 involving Police Cruisers and picnic tables? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you witness any interactions 14 between OPP Officers and Dudley George? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you talk to Dudley George at all 17 on Tuesday, that you can remember? 18 A: No, I didn't. 19 Q: Okay. Did you see any children in 20 the Park on Tuesday, flashing mirrors at -- at either OPP 21 Officers or members of the media? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Are you familiar with the Silver 24 Birch's Camp? 25 A: Yes.
1691 Q: Can you tell me where that facility 2 is located? 3 A: If you're heading north on Army Camp 4 Road and you passed the main gate, it would be the first 5 campground on your lefthand side, approximately a mile 6 from the main gate entrance. 7 Q: So north of the main gate entrance on 8 Army Camp Road? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And so it's across from 11 the Army Camp? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. And to your knowledge, 14 does -- did the Silver Birch's campground have a season 15 -- have season ending parties? 16 A: Yes, they did. 17 Q: And to your knowledge, did it have a 18 party at the season's end of 1995? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And do you know what day that would 21 have been, was that Labour Day, or when would that be? 22 A: I can't be positive. 23 Q: Can you tell me approximately when 24 that would be? 25 A: More -- more likely on the weekend.
1701 Q: Weekend, okay. As in August 31st, 2 September 1st, September 2nd -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- that -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: At the very end of the camping 8 season -- 9 Q: Of the camping season. 10 A: Whenever that is. 11 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge, did 12 Russ Jewel go to this season ending party at the Silver 13 Birch's? 14 A: No, I don't recall him going over 15 there. 16 Q: Okay. Do you know whether he was 17 planning to go out there? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you recall whether he was -- 20 whether he and Marlin Simon were making plans to go to 21 that event? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Do you know whether any of the Park 24 occupants went to that event? 25 A: No.
1711 Q: You don't know? 2 A: I don't think anybody would go over 3 there. 4 Q: Why not? 5 A: Probably because they wouldn't know 6 anybody over there. 7 Q: Had you gone to these events before? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you hear any gunshots or sounds 10 similar to gunshots during the evening of Tuesday, 11 September 5th? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 Q: I anticipate that the Commission will 14 hear evidence of -- that there were reports of gunshots 15 being heard in or around the Army Camp or Park area 16 during the evening of September 5th, 1995. 17 Now, if that evidence were to come 18 forward, would that refresh your memory or change your 19 evidence? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: Would that -- if that evidence comes 22 forward, would that refresh your memory or change your 23 evidence concerning whether or not you heard gunshots 24 that night? 25 A: If they gave me a date and I was
1721 there, yes, it would refresh my memory. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps I should just -- let's 3 -- I'll rephrase the question. We anticipate that there 4 will be evidence later on in this Inquiry that 5 individuals heard gunshots the evening of Tuesday, 6 September the 5th in or around the Park or Army Camp 7 area? 8 A: I can't be sure on the date. 9 Q: Did you hear gunshots one of those 10 evenings? 11 A: One evening I heard gunshots, yes. 12 Q: All right. And was that either the 13 Monday or Tuesday? 14 A: It's possible. 15 Q: Possible? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Where were you when you 18 heard those gunshots? 19 A: In the bush. 20 Q: In the -- 21 A: In a clearing on your way to Camp 22 Dudley. 23 Q: On your way to where? 24 A: The inland lakes. 25 Q: The inland lakes?
1731 A: Yeah. 2 Q: So would that be on the Army Camp 3 grounds? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: In the bush. 7 Q: In the bush? And approximately what 8 time of day or night was this that you heard gunshots? 9 A: I would say around 12:00. 10 Q: Noon or midnight? 11 A: Midnight. 12 Q: Okay. And can you tell me, what kind 13 of gunshots you heard? What type of fire you heard? 14 A: Single shot. Loud. 15 Q: A single shot. Loud? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Do you have any 18 knowledge, information or belief as to what was the 19 source of that gun shot or who had fired a gun? 20 A: Yeah. As a matter of fact, I was 21 there at the time. 22 Q: All right. Can you tell me who that 23 was? 24 A: Russ Jewel and Marlin Simon. 25 Q: All right. And can you tell me,
1741 which of the two (2)? 2 A: Both of them took turns. They were 3 target practising. 4 Q: Okay. All right. And did they each 5 have a gun that you saw? 6 A: I only saw one (1) gun that they were 7 using. And I don't really know who had it. I didn't 8 know they were going target practising until we were 9 almost to the built up area and it was Russ' idea to go 10 look for Marlin. 11 Q: Okay. All right. And had you been 12 down at the Maintenance Building when -- when the 13 suggestion was made to you by Russ Jewel that you go -- 14 that you go up to the -- into the bush? 15 A: No. We were just going up -- up -- I 16 used to call the built up area "town" and that's -- he -- 17 he just said it on our way up there. 18 Q: Okay. All right. And to your 19 knowledge was there target practising activities that 20 would be carried on in that area from time to time? 21 A: Yeah. From time to time. 22 Q: All right. And you found Marlin, 23 obviously? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what was said?
1751 A: Russ just asked him if he wanted to 2 go target practising. 3 Q: And what was Marlin's response? 4 A: Yes. Sure. 5 Q: And -- and so did you then go target 6 practising? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And is that when you went into the 9 bush? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: By the Inland Lakes? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And where were they -- what targets 14 were they practising against? 15 A: I believe it was a board. And there 16 was a type of little hill, a build-up of dirt or sand, 17 where they set the board in front of. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. And 19 approximately how long did you stay with them while they 20 were target practising? 21 A: We weren't there very long. 22 Q: Okay. Do you know approximately how 23 many shots were fired? 24 A: Not to be exact, no. It was more 25 than one (1) though, --
1761 Q: Okay. 2 A: --I -- I recall. 3 Q: Was -- was it more or less than ten 4 (10)? 5 A: Less. 6 Q: And how did you feel about the fact 7 that there was target practising going on during the Park 8 occupation? 9 A: I didn't like it, for the fact that I 10 had my daughter with me. 11 Q: Was she with you at the time that the 12 target practising was going on, or -- or? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Physically with you? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Inside the car. 18 Q: Inside the car? All right. Whose 19 car was it that you went up in? 20 A: Russ Jewel. 21 Q: All right. Was there anyone else in 22 the car? 23 A: No other adults. 24 Q: All right. Were both of your -- any 25 other children in the car?
1771 A: I -- I know Julie was there, but I 2 can't recall if Phoebe was there also. 3 Q: Now, did you, in light of your 4 earlier comments that there were to be no guns, did you - 5 - and I know this was in the Military Camp, but, did you 6 speak to anyone about the fact that these gentlemen had 7 been target practising in the Military Camp area? 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: To your knowledge, was this activity 10 repeated again during the course of the -- the three (3) 11 days? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. Okay. And you are saying that 14 this is either September the 4th, Monday, September the 15 4th, or Tuesday, September the 5th, at around midnight? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Thank you. Did you have a discussion 18 with either Russ or Marlin about the propriety of target 19 practising? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you participate? 22 A: No, not that night. 23 Q: Had you been involved in target 24 practising before? 25 A: Yes, I was.
1781 Q: Before the Park occupation? 2 A: No, it was sometime after 1998. 3 Q: Oh, after 1998? All right. Thank 4 you. Where did you go after the target practising was 5 finished? 6 A: We gave Marlin a ride back home, up 7 to the built-up area, I recall. 8 Q: All right. And did he have his gun 9 with him when he went back home? 10 A: I can't recall that. No, I can't 11 recall if he had one or not. 12 Q: Well do you know what happened with 13 his gun after he -- after he and Russ Jewel finished 14 target practise? 15 A: No, I don't recall. 16 Q: Did it come back to the maintenance 17 building in the car? 18 A: No. 19 Q: How can you be so sure? 20 A: Because I don't recall him carrying a 21 gun back in. His brother, Les, had a gun, I'm -- I'm 22 pretty sure. He used to go hunting also. 23 Q: Les Jewel? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And did you see either Marlin Simon
1791 or Les Jewel bring their gun or rifle into the Park, at 2 any time between September 4th and 6th? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Can you tell me what kind of gun or 5 rifle Marlin Simon used that night with Russ Jewel? 6 A: No, I think it was brown. 7 Q: Was it a handgun or a rifle? 8 A: It was a long barrel. 9 Q: Rifle? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And was it automatic, semi-automatic 12 or single shoot? 13 A: It was a single shot, if I can recall 14 correctly. 15 Q: Okay. Have you seen Marlin with this 16 rifle before? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Now going to Tuesday night, 19 where did you sleep that night? 20 A: In the maintenance shed on Tuesday 21 night, yes. 22 Q: And do you recall approximately what 23 time you went to bed that evening? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Would it have been before or after
1801 midnight? 2 A: It would probably be after midnight. 3 Q: Okay. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I wonder 5 if we could take our afternoon break now, it's a little 6 early, but I'm going to be proceeding to a videotape, and 7 I'd like to prepare that. The mechanics and such, it 8 will take me a few minutes to do that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, we'll 10 take our afternoon break now. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 2:50 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 3:07 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed, please be seated. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If it 25 doesn't work, you can blame Derry Millar.
1811 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. I can do it, I 2 know I can do it. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now, I'm showing to you an excerpt of 8 a video, it's taken from a surveillance camera and 9 produced by the OPP, and it's identified as being taken 10 on September the 6th, 1995, and the time marker on it is 11 2:58 a.m., and ten (10) seconds. 12 And we'd like you to have a look at this - 13 - this still from the video, and tell me whether you 14 recognize what is being shot there? 15 A: Like tell you if I recognize this 16 picture? 17 Q: Yes. Can you -- can you identify the 18 location? 19 A: I think -- rather I'm sure this is a 20 middle wall in between the two (2) garages. 21 Q: In what building? 22 A: The maintenance shed. 23 Q: All right. And I'd like to play 24 this, and ask you to please keep your eye on the video, 25 and then I'm going to pause it at certain points and ask
1821 you some questions. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. Just give me a 6 moment. I'm going to back up this video and my -- My 7 Friend has helped with the -- the time. I've got the 8 wrong time up. Just need to back it up a few minutes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. All right, as 13 you can see, this is the same -- this appears to be the 14 same wall that you identified and the time is 2:49 a.m. 15 and thirty-seven (37) seconds on September the 6th, 1995 16 and we're just going to play a couple of minutes from 17 this video. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just bear with us for a 22 moment. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1831 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, we're going 2 to proceed on to another area while Ms. Hensel gets the 3 video back up and running. I apologise for that. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: I'd like to move to -- we'll get back 7 to the video later, okay? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: So we're going to proceed. 10 Where were you on the morning of 11 Wednesday, September the 6th, 1995? 12 A: In the morning I was at the 13 maintenance shed. 14 Q: Maintenance shed? All right. And 15 what were you doing in the maintenance shed? 16 A: Carrying on with daily, normal 17 living. 18 Q: Were your girls still with you? 19 A: Julie was, I know. Like I said, I 20 can't be sure if Phoebe was, because I -- I can't 21 remember which day that I let her go with my sister, Joy 22 Lewis. 23 Q: Okay. But do you recall whether you 24 had the -- both daughters with you the following morning? 25 A: On Tuesday?
1841 Q: The 7th. 2 A: On the 7th? 3 Q: I'm just wondering if that helps you 4 with whether or not your one daughter had gone? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: All right. Then you had at least one 7 (1) of your children, your -- your youngest child with 8 you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you were at the maintenance shed 11 during the morning. Were you there, basically, the whole 12 morning? 13 A: On the 7th? 14 Q: The 6th. 15 A: The 6th? 16 Q: We're back to the 6th. 17 A: Most of the time, I would say, yes. 18 Q: All right. And what did you do in 19 the afternoon? 20 A: I did a lot of things, probably. 21 Q: Where were you in the afternoon? 22 A: On the 6th? 23 Q: Wednesday, the 6th. 24 A: I was at the maintenance shed. 25 Q: Okay. And what types of thing were
1851 you doing at the maintenance shed in the afternoon? 2 A: Probably housecleaning, sitting 3 around. 4 Q: All right. Is it fair to say then 5 that the majority of the day you spent in the maintenance 6 building doing household chores? 7 A: I think so. 8 Q: Did you go down to the Park store 9 area during the course of the day for any -- any length 10 of time? 11 A: On Wednesday, I can't be positive. 12 Q: All right. Did you leave the Park on 13 Wednesday, during the day? 14 A: I could have. On one (1) of those 15 days I recall going into Forest and getting stopped in 16 Forest. 17 Q: All right. When you say "one (1) of 18 those days", which days are you referring to? 19 A: Tuesday or Wednesday. 20 Q: All right. And did you have to go 21 through a police check when you went to Forest? 22 A: No. No. I don't recall no police 23 check. 24 Q: All right. What way did you exit 25 then in order to not go through a -- a police check?
1861 A: I'm pretty sure I drove right down 2 Highway 21, turned right on Highway 21, passed by Kettle 3 Point straight into Forest. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I'm pretty sure. 6 Q: Did you exit the Park via the 7 military camp then? Or -- I'm just trying to understand 8 what exit you took out of the Park and the military camp. 9 A: Through the main gate, gatehouse, I 10 would imagine. 11 Q: Okay. And you don't recall there 12 being any -- a police checkpoint when you went to Forest? 13 A: No, I don't recall. I only recall 14 the checkpoint that I went around. 15 Q: All right. Going to Sudbury? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Did you see -- did you 18 notice whether or not the police presence around the Park 19 was -- was greater or lesser or the same as Tuesday? 20 A: On the day that I -- I seen the 21 police all lined up on Army Camp Road at the end of 22 Matheson, I noticed that there was more at that time. 23 Q: All right. And what time of the day 24 did you see that? 25 A: I -- I would say it would probably be
1871 in the middle of the day, around noon hour. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: Possibly. 4 Q: -- are you -- do you know whether 5 that was Tuesday or -- or Wednesday now? 6 A: No, I can't be positive. 7 Q: Fair enough. Did you observe any 8 helicopter activity on Wednesday, September the 6th? 9 A: I can't remember. 10 Q: Okay. Did you go up to the barracks 11 at all on that day? 12 A: On Wednesday? 13 Q: During the day? 14 A: Gees, I -- I can't recall; it's -- 15 it's been a long time. 16 Q: I appreciate it, it has been a long 17 time. And you've told us that you know that you spent 18 the majority of that day in the maintenance building? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Did you see any guns or 21 firearms in the Park or in the maintenance building or in 22 Russ Jewel's car -- 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: -- on Wednesday? 25 A: No.
1881 Q: Did you see any children or others 2 with firecrackers on Wednesday, September the 6th? 3 A: Not that I can recall. 4 Q: Did you witness any firebombs or 5 Molotov cocktails or the makings for those things during 6 the course of the day on Wednesday, September the 6th? 7 A: Not the course of the day. 8 Q: Okay. We have heard some evidence of 9 there being what has been described as mock OPP car 10 chases along the dirt road beside Army Camp Road in the 11 military camp, involving the OPP WHO car; did you any of 12 that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you see anyone in the Park, 15 either on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, who appeared to 16 you to be under the influence of alcohol? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you see any alcohol within the 19 Park? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Did you have any understandings with 22 respect to the propriety of having alcohol in the Park 23 during the occupation? 24 A: The propriety? 25 Q: Whether or not there should or should
1891 not be alcohol in the Park? 2 A: There was not to be any alcohol in 3 the Park. 4 Q: And did you have any understanding as 5 to why that was? 6 A: Because people were supposed to be -- 7 were told, to my recollection, overhearing conversations 8 with everybody, that nobody was to be drinking. 9 Q: Okay. Did you witness any 10 interactions between any police officers and Park 11 occupants during the daytime on Wednesday? 12 A: Police Officers and occupants? No. 13 Q: Okay. Did you hear or see any police 14 officers or Park officials attempting to communicate or 15 initiate discussions with Park occupants on Wednesday, 16 during the day? 17 A: Not that I can recall. 18 Q: No. Did you observe any incidents 19 involving picnic tables that day? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you talk to Dudley George at all 22 on Wednesday, during the day? 23 A: No, I talked to Brenda Frampton, on 24 one (1) of those two (2) days, she came to the 25 maintenance shed to look for someone to go over there and
1901 sit with Dudley, because he was all by -- he was by 2 himself, this would be in the morning. 3 On -- on which one (1) of those two (2) 4 days, Tuesday or Wednesday, I'm not sure. But my answer 5 to Brenda was that I was just about -- I was going to be 6 going into Thedford to -- to get a load of stuff. 7 Q: From your home? 8 A: Yeah, from Thedford and bring it to 9 the maintenance shed. And she left and I'm pretty sure 10 that she went back to where Dudley was. 11 Q: Now, did you go to your home on 12 Wednesday? 13 A: I can't be positive. 14 Q: All right. Because I know you told 15 us that you had gone on Tuesday to pick up goods? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Do you know if you went the next day 18 too? 19 A: It's possible. I had heavy stuff to 20 bring, and I think I might have borrowed my dad's truck, 21 but to -- to say on Wednesday, I can't be sure. 22 Q: All right, fair enough. At this 23 point on Wednesday, during the day, were you concerned at 24 all about the safety of your children in the Park? 25 A: No.
1911 Q: If you had found out that there were 2 guns in the Park, or being brought into the Park, would 3 you have stayed with your children? 4 A: My children were with me all the 5 time. 6 Q: Just listen to my question. If you 7 had become aware of there being guns in the Park, or 8 being brought into the Park, would you have stayed in the 9 Park with your children? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Did anything else of significance 12 happen, during the course of the day on Wednesday, 13 September the 6th, that you were either witness to or a 14 part of? 15 A: On Wednesday? Again, I wouldn't be 16 sure if it was Wednesday. But I recall Les Jewel 17 bringing a Sagamok police car to the maintenance shed. 18 Q: Can you explain to me what a Sagamok 19 police car is? 20 A: It's an Anishinabek police, I -- I'm 21 sure. 22 Q: Is this a marked car? 23 A: Yeah, it has Sagamok right on it. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: As fas as I know, that's Sagamok is a
1921 reserve. 2 Q: Is a First Nation community or 3 reserve? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Do you know how it is he 6 came to be in a Sagamok police car? 7 A: Pardon me? 8 Q: Do you know how it is that he came to 9 bring a Sagamok police car to the maintenance building? 10 A: No, but I seen Les Jewel talking with 11 an officer that had a car like that outside the main gate 12 on one (1) occasion. 13 Q: Can you repeat that for me? I didn't 14 hear the first part of it. 15 A: I saw Les Jewel talking with a police 16 officer who was -- who was with that or who had that 17 Sagamok police car -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: He was talking to them outside the 20 main gate. 21 Q: When? 22 A: I can't be positive. It was on one 23 of those days. 24 Q: Tuesday or Wednesday? 25 A: Possibly, yes.
1931 Q: Okay. All right. And what -- you 2 can only tell us what you saw, but what did you -- what 3 became of this police car after it came to the building, 4 maintenance building? 5 A: I think -- I didn't see which way he 6 went. He left. They left. He left. 7 Q: Les left in the car? 8 A: I think so. 9 Q: All right. Do you -- do you know if 10 he had any passengers in the car? 11 A: No, I think there was just the two 12 (2) of them. 13 Q: Who's the other person? 14 A: The officer and Les Jewel. 15 Q: An aboriginal police officer from a - 16 - from a First Nations police force? 17 A: Yeah, he had a suit on. 18 Q: Do you know what this police 19 officer's name is? 20 A: I -- I think that they -- he 21 introduced himself, but I can't recall. 22 Q: All right. And you don't -- you 23 didn't see which way they went? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Whether they went into the Park --
1941 A: No, I don't -- 2 Q: -- further into the Park or -- 3 A: -- think they went in the Park. 4 Q: Were -- 5 A: They -- they turned and went out the 6 other way. 7 Q: Towards the Army camp? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Did you see that car again? 10 A: Not after that, no. 11 Q: Okay. Did you ask Les about that car 12 and -- and that police officer? 13 A: We was standing there talking for a 14 time, but I can't really recall what of and they took a 15 picture of Julie in front of that car and I've been 16 trying to look for that picture but I haven't come across 17 it yet. 18 Q: Okay. If you do find that, would you 19 let us know? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Thank you. All right. Did -- did 22 you have any subsequent conversations with either Russ or 23 Les or anyone else about why that police officer was in 24 the Park on either the Tuesday or Wednesday? 25 A: No, I didn't.
1951 Q: Okay. I believe that -- we're going 2 to have another run at this video. I'd ask you to have a 3 look again. The time frame is 2:48 a.m. 41 seconds. 4 September the 6th, 1995. 5 And you've identified the wall. Oh, has 6 it gone past? 7 A: Yes, I'm pretty sure it's the middle 8 wall. 9 Q: Yeah, well, shall we go back. I'd 10 like you to pause it in that one spot. Okay, okay, okay, 11 okay. It's got to go slower. Just play, yeah. There we 12 go. 13 Now at 2:50:34. We're just playing it. I 14 hope it's playing. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Of course, this worked 19 very well when I was practising last night. I just want 20 everyone to know that. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, no, we just need 25 to have it on one (1) speed, and okay. Okay, okay, okay.
1961 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, well I'm sorry, 5 clearly there's a problem with the mechanism, because as 6 we get it going it pauses after three (3) or four (4) 7 seconds. So, we'll go to plan B. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Would you 12 be happy to do that for me? All right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 14 it now? 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: What we are going to do, Ms. George, 18 is we're going to use another machine to see if it isn't 19 my machine. But what I have put on the screen for you is 20 a copy of Exhibit P-42(A). 21 And you will see the time frame is 22 2:51 a.m., forty-one (41) seconds, dated September the 23 6th, 1995, and I can advise you that that image came from 24 the video that you saw briefly in this fast-forward mode. 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1971 Q: And that's the still shot from it. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 3 Exhibit Number? This was put in before as you can tell. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 42(A), Your Honour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 42(A)? 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Now, my first question is: Do you 10 recognize, again, the -- the location of this shot? 11 A: It's in a garage at the maintenance 12 shed. 13 Q: All right. And the -- do you 14 recognize the person who is approximately in the middle 15 of the photograph? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: Who is that? 18 A: Russ Jewel. 19 Q: All right. Can you tell me, do you 20 recognize what the object is that he is holding in his 21 left hand? 22 A: To me it looks like a stick. 23 Q: Now, did you ever see Russ Jewel with 24 a gun or firearm in his hand, at the maintenance 25 building?
1981 A: No. 2 Q: All right. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I'd 4 like to take a brief recess. I'd like to get this other 5 video up and running. It won't take us very long, I 6 hope. But it is important that I show it in conjunction 7 with this photograph. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 9 break. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When you get 12 it going just let us know. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will now 15 recess. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 3:37 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 3:49 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much, 23 Mr. Commissioner. I am deeply indebted to Ms. Newell for 24 her technological expertise, and the use of her computer 25 and program.
1991 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: And what we do have now, Ms. George, 4 behind you, is a frame from the video, surveillance video 5 tape. The time on it is 2:49 a.m. and thirteen (13) 6 seconds, taken September the 6th, 1995. 7 And you have identified already that this 8 is the maintenance building, and we're looking at a 9 wall, -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- between the two (2) garages, I 12 believe you said. 13 A: I -- I'm pretty sure it is. 14 Q: All right. And I wonder, I wish -- 15 we all just hold our breath now, please, could we try to 16 make this thing play? There we go. 17 I want you to look carefully at this. 18 19 (VIDEO PLAYING) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: We just hit the 2:50 a.m. mark. 23 24 (VIDEO PLAYING) 25
2001 Q: We're now to 2:51 a.m. 2 3 (VIDEO PLAYING) 4 5 Q: Would you pause it? Pause it, 6 please. 7 Did you -- do you recognize the person who 8 just walked through the frame at 2:51:34? 9 A: You'd have to back it up. 10 Q: Can you back it up a little? 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 Q: Sorry, we just can't -- did you see - 15 - did you see this time? No, eh? All right. Back it up 16 a bit. 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 Q: Are you able to recognize who that is 21 in the frame at 2:51 a.m. and thirty-two (32) seconds? 22 A: It almost looks like me or Gina 23 George. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I -- I just seen a little bit of the
2011 face over here. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: But I can't be positive. 4 Q: Do you recall whether you were in the 5 maintenance building at this time? 6 A: I would have -- I would have been, 7 yes. 8 Q: All right. Proceed. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: Pause it. Good. All right. 13 Did you see that image? 14 A: It looks like the first person who 15 came walking in is still standing there. 16 Q: That's right. The person we -- you 17 identified either as yourself or Gina George. Now -- 18 A: Yeah, I think so. 19 Q: -- was Gina George in the maintenance 20 building at approximately 3:00 a.m. on Tuesday night, 21 September the 6th? 22 A: She could have been. 23 Q: All right. And then we saw a second 24 figure that came through; did you recognize that person? 25 A: Yes. That was Russ.
2021 Q: Russ Jewel? 2 A: Jewel, yeah. 3 Q: All right. Fair enough. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 8 Commissioner, I'd like to mark this next -- as the next 9 exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-130. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 130? 12 THE REGISTRAR: 130. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-130: Copy of Maintenance Building 16 Tape number 001- September 5 17 to 6, 1995, from 2109 hours 18 to 0300 hours. Produced by 19 the Ontario Provincial 20 Police, Anti-Rackets Section, 21 Evidence Management Unit. 22 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And just for the 24 record, what we are marking as an exhibit is copy of 25 Maintenance Building Tape number 001- September 5 to 6,
2031 1995, from 2109 hours to 0300 hours. And it's produced 2 by the Ontario Provincial Police, Anti-Rackets Section, 3 Evidence Management Unit. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, thank you 8 very much. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Now, we're going to fast forward a 12 few hours, so we're now at Wednesday, September the 6th, 13 and I'd like to ask you where you were in the early 14 evening of Wednesday, September the 6th, 1995? 15 A: I was at the maintenance shed, and if 16 I wasn't there, I could have been uptown or where 17 everybody else was. 18 Q: Or? 19 A: Where everybody else was possibly. 20 Q: All right. When you say uptown, do 21 you mean the Barracks? 22 A: I'm -- yeah, the built up area. 23 Q: And when you say where everyone else 24 was, how can you -- can you recall where that would be? 25 A: By the Park store vicinity.
2041 Q: All right. And do you have any 2 recollection as to what you were doing in the early 3 evening? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. Did you see Russ Jewel 6 over the course of the -- the early evening? 7 A: More than likely I did. 8 Q: Okay. Did Russ Jewel tell you 9 anything about Police activity going in -- going on 10 around the Park in -- in the early to mid evening of 11 Wednesday, September the 6th? 12 A: Yes, he did. 13 Q: Can you tell me what -- what he told 14 you? 15 A: There was on more than one (1) 16 occasion, when he come back from the vicinity of the Park 17 store, he come back saying that all he heard down there 18 was containment, containment. That's all I heard was 19 containment. 20 Q: Did he tell you where he heard that - 21 - that phrase? 22 A: No, he never, or from whom. 23 Q: All right. Did he explain to you 24 what that term meant? 25 A: He said that -- he said that everyone
2051 would be safe as long as they stayed inside the fence. 2 Q: Inside the Park fence? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And do you have any understanding as 5 to where he obtained that information? 6 A: No. Not at the time I didn't. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: But today I -- I would assume that he 9 heard it over the Police scanner. 10 Q: All right, but you don't know that, 11 you didn't know that then? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Has he subsequently told you that? 14 A: I can't recall. 15 Q: All right. Now, did -- did Gina 16 George and her daughters visit you at all that night, 17 Wednesday, September the 6th? 18 A: Yes, she did. 19 Q: And was she with her daughters? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you know -- do you recall 22 approximately how old her daughters were? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2061 A: I think maybe that Melanie was about 2 as old as Julie is now, which would be eleven (11), the 3 oldest daughter, and Amanda, she would probably be 4 roughly nine (9), and Stephanie, would -- would more 5 likely be roughly five (5) or six (6). 6 Q: And where did she visit you? 7 A: Right -- right in the maintenance 8 shed. 9 Q: And did you pretty much stay in the 10 maintenance building, during the early to mid evening 11 hours of September the 6th? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. What other activities besides 14 from visiting with Gina George were you doing? 15 A: I could have been pouring somebody 16 gas, could have had a shower. Probably ate. Probably 17 did my dishes, got junior ready for bed, kids ready for 18 bed. 19 Q: All right. So normal routine 20 things -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- for your household? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. Where were you when the 25 members of the Ontario Provincial Police marched along
2071 East Parkway Drive, towards the Park? 2 A: I was at the maintenance shed. 3 Q: All right. When did you first find 4 out about this march? 5 A: When Russ Jewel come back. I don't 6 know if he mentioned anything about a march. 7 Q: Okay. What did Russ Jewel tell you 8 when he came to the maintenance building? 9 A: Just -- what I can remember him 10 saying containment, containment. 11 Q: All right. When -- approximately 12 what time did he come to the maintenance building? 13 A: There was more than one (1) time that 14 he came there. 15 Q: All right. What I'm interested in is 16 understanding when -- okay, when was the last time that 17 Russ Jewel came to see you at the maintenance building, 18 on September the 6th? 19 A: Approximately quarter to 11:00. 20 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 21 did he tell you on this visit to the maintenance 22 building? 23 A: He -- he told me that Dudley was shot 24 and to get my girls up to the built up area or I had 25 better take them up there.
2081 Q: When Russ Jewel arrived at the 2 maintenance building, did he have anything in his hands? 3 A: Not that I can recall. 4 Q: Do you know how -- what mode of 5 transportation he used to come to the maintenance 6 building to tell you this? 7 A: In that blue Satellite. 8 Q: What was your immediate reaction upon 9 learning that Dudley George had been shot? 10 A: I jolted and I remember putting my 11 hands up, like that. And I told the girls to get in the 12 car and I grabbed a TV. I think I grabbed that TV just 13 in case I was being followed, I would throw it out on the 14 road. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. And whose car 16 did you get into with your children? 17 A: That blue Satellite that belonged to 18 Russ Jewel. 19 Q: Were you thinking very clearly at 20 this moment? 21 A: No, I -- yeah, I think I was -- I was 22 thinking clearly, yes. 23 Q: All right. And what else, if 24 anything, was going around -- going on around you as you 25 got into Russ Jewel's car with your daughters and your
2091 TV? 2 A: Gina was ahead of me. I don't know 3 by how far. But, I -- she went by the maintenance shed 4 and that's when I looked at the clock and I said that she 5 must be taking her girls home to sl -- to bed. 6 Q: All right. That's why you looked at 7 the clock? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And was she in a car? 10 A: She was in her car. 11 Q: All right. So she drove by the 12 maintenance building at about 10:45? 13 A: Yeah. She also got some gas, too. 14 Q: All right. And that's approximately 15 when Russ Jewel came and told you about Dudley George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And who drove you to the 18 barracks? 19 A: Russ Jewel did. 20 Q: And did he drive you straight to the 21 barracks from the maintenance building? 22 A: Yeah, straight up the road. 23 Q: And what road did you take? 24 A: The dirt road within the Army Camp, 25 parallel to Army Camp Road.
2101 Q: All right. 2 A: Heading north to the built up area. 3 Q: Did you happen to look out the car 4 window as you were being driven to the Barracks? 5 A: I imagine I did, yes. 6 Q: And do you recall what you saw? 7 A: I remember seeing three (3) little 8 fires somewhere along the line there, or at least one (1) 9 fire. 10 Q: Where? 11 A: In between the two (2) roads I think, 12 if I can remember correctly. 13 Q: Within the Army Camp ground? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Did you see anything else, did 16 you -- 17 A: It was dark out. 18 Q: -- okay. Did you notice, did -- did 19 Mr. Jewel have his headlights on? 20 A: Yeah, I think he did. 21 Q: All right. And I think you said that 22 -- well, were both of your daughters with you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you know where your son, Dale, 25 was?
2111 A: He was in the Park. 2 Q: Were you worried about him? 3 A: Yeah, I'm a mother, I was worried 4 about him, but he's also grown up. Yeah, I was worried 5 about him. 6 Q: Okay. Now, where did Russ Jewel 7 drive you to, at the Barracks? 8 A: To my brother, Roderick George's 9 house. Building 30, the same one (1) he lives in today. 10 Q: All right. And what did you do with 11 your -- what did you do when you arrived at Roderick's 12 house? 13 A: I took the girls inside and I asked 14 their oldest daughter, Charmaine (phonetic), if the girls 15 can stay there and she said, yes. And I left there and 16 we were going back down to the Park. But the only thing 17 I -- I jumped out at the gatehouse and he was going back 18 down there. 19 Q: Who's he? 20 A: Russ Jewel was going back down 21 towards the Park. 22 Q: Okay. Now, let me just ask you this 23 before -- before you go further. Did you see any 24 firearms or guns of any kind in Russ Jewel's car, during 25 this car ride up to the Barracks?
2121 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: Okay. Did he advise you as to 3 whether or not he had guns or firearms? 4 A: No, he never. 5 Q: Okay. So, he returned to the Park, 6 as far as you know, but you got off at the main Army -- 7 sorry, the main gate at the Army Camp? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what did you see when you arrived 10 at the main gate? 11 A: I didn't see any cars travelling on 12 the road, I was hoping I would see a car on the road. 13 Maybe I could flag him down and -- and ask them to help 14 get an ambulance. 15 Q: Okay. Was there any phone up there 16 at the -- the gatehouse? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. Were there any phones on the -- 19 in the Barracks that were working? 20 A: No, I don't think so. I don't think 21 there was a payphone in the gatehouse then, you know. 22 Q: And did you see any ambulances on 23 Highway 21, or Army Camp Road? 24 A: Not until one (1) came and picked up 25 my nephew.
2131 Q: All right, and we'll get there in -- 2 in a minute. Were there other people around the gate -- 3 Army gate, the main gate, when you arrived there? 4 A: I don't recall anyone. 5 Q: All right. And did anybody join you 6 at the Army gate? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Who? 9 A: Marcie, Marcia Simon and Aunt Melva 10 were going out, and Marcie stopped her car and she got 11 out and she asked me what was happening, and I told her 12 that we need an ambulance, that they shot Dudley, that 13 Dudley was shot. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And she immediately got into her car 16 and I watched her go down Army Camp Road and turn left on 17 Highway 21, and I seen a cop car following her. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: And I walked back in towards the 20 gatehouse a little bit more, and I wasn't there very long 21 and Pierre pulled up, with Carolyn, his sister, in the 22 front, and JT was in there. And Pierre told me 23 something, but I can't recall what he said. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: But I knew Dudley was in the back.
2141 All I could see in the backseat was the light from the 2 gatehouse shining on J.T.'s face, and I couldn't see 3 Dudley. 4 Q: How do you know that Dudley was in 5 that car? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But I knew. 9 Q: And whose car was -- was it? 10 A: That -- that's probably what Pierre 11 told me could -- could possibly have been. 12 Q: Pierre George? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And you saw Carolyn George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And J.T. Cousins? 17 A: Yeah. I -- I'm pretty sure that 18 Pierre might have told me that Dudley was shot and -- and 19 he made something to the effect needing help or going to 20 the hospital, but I -- but I -- I knew that they were 21 going out. And I told him, I -- I yelled, I -- I said, 22 Go, go, go, and don't stop for no one. 23 I told Dudley I loved him. 24 Q: Did you -- 25 A: But I couldn't see him.
2151 Q: And did -- did Pierre leave at that 2 point in his car? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: Right away, quick. 6 Q: Would you like a moment? No? At 7 this time did you see any -- any ambulances or police 8 cars, as Pierre drove out of the Army Camp? 9 A: I -- I didn't watch him go down the 10 road, not like I did with Aunt Melva and Marcie. 11 Q: Okay. What do you recall as 12 happening next? 13 A: That's when more -- shortly after 14 that more people showed up at the gatehouse and -- Judas 15 and Gina pulled up with Nicholas, and that was when I 16 found out that he was shot. 17 And Gina didn't -- didn't really want 18 Judas to go out there to go look for an ambulance because 19 she knew that the police would do something to him. 20 Q: To? 21 A: To my brother. 22 Q: Okay. Probably for the specific 23 reason that he was a man and he -- he said, Tina, you go 24 with her. And I never asked no questions. I just jumped 25 in the car and went with Gina to take Nicholas up for an
2161 ambulance. 2 Q: Okay. And what car was this? 3 A: It was the blue, dark blue Camaro. 4 Q: And did you -- who was driving? 5 A: Gina was. 6 Q: And were you -- which -- which seat 7 were you in? 8 A: I was in the back. 9 Q: With Nicholas? 10 A: I -- I think Nicholas was in the 11 front. 12 Q: Okay. All right. And did Gina drive 13 out of the Army Camp? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how far did you go? 16 A: How far did I go? 17 Q: Well, in the car. How far did the 18 car go? 19 A: It -- it just went around the ramp. 20 Q: Onto Highway 21? 21 A: Yeah, to get onto Highway 21. 22 Q: And did it turn right or left? 23 A: It turned right. 24 Q: To the right? 25 A: Yeah.
2171 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 2 A: We were told to get out of the car, 3 put our hands up. 4 Q: Who told you? 5 A: An officer that was sitting there -- 6 or standing there. There was -- I -- I remember one (1) 7 officer standing there, pointing his gun at us. And they 8 told us to put our hands up. And Gina said, Why what are 9 you going to do? Shoot us? And then she goes, If you 10 are, you're going to have to shoot us in the back. And 11 she turned around, and I turned around too when she said 12 that. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And I'm pretty sure they told us to 15 lay on the ground. We weren't going to lay on the 16 ground. And you could hear -- you could hear voices down 17 the road calling us bitches and wahoos. 18 Q: Do you know what the source of those 19 voices were? 20 A: I imagine they were police. 21 Q: Why do you imagine that? 22 A: Because there was nobody else in the 23 vicinity. There was no traffic. 24 Q: And did you see more than one (1) 25 Police Officer?
2181 A: I think there might have been two 2 (2). 3 Q: Okay. And did you see any Police 4 Cruisers? 5 A: I can't recall any. 6 Q: Okay. Was there an ambulance at this 7 time? 8 A: An ambulance did come for Nicholas. 9 Q: All right. But at this moment, when 10 you were told to have your hands -- put your hands up, 11 was there an ambulance present? 12 A: I can't remember. 13 Q: All right. Now you said that -- that 14 an Officer had his gun -- was it a male or female 15 Officer? 16 A: It was a male. 17 Q: All right. And what did he do with 18 his gun? 19 A: He kept it pointing at us and I was 20 screaming at him, I -- I told him that they might have 21 killed somebody and injured a couple minors. 22 And I may have swore at them a little bit, 23 and I also told them that that gun was the devil's right 24 hand and he kind of put it down -- lowered it. 25 Q: All right. And is that when he told
2191 you to go on the ground, or a Police Officer told you to 2 go on the ground? 3 A: I'm not sure if it was when we first 4 got there, or at that time. 5 Q: All right. And what happened after 6 that? After he put his gun down? 7 A: My hands were kind of getting sore, 8 and -- 9 Q: Why? 10 A: From holding them up. 11 Q: So you -- you did put them up? 12 A: Yeah, I was standing there with my 13 hands up. 14 Q: And what about Gina? 15 A: She was also. 16 Q: All right, and where was Nick at this 17 time? 18 A: He was sitting in the car. 19 Q: All right. What happened next? 20 A: An ambulance pulled up, and when he 21 came to a stop he wasn't really straight, his vehicle was 22 kind of swerved, and he got out, he wasn't walking 23 normal, he was in a crouched down position, walking 24 against the ambulance. And he asked the Officer, what 25 have we got here?
2201 Q: And that was the ambulance driver? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And where was the -- what -- 4 what side of the road was your -- or was Gina's car on 5 when it was stopped? 6 A: It was on the north side of the road. 7 Q: Okay. And facing what way? 8 A: Facing towards Kettle Point. 9 Q: All right. What -- 10 A: West. 11 Q: -- what side of the road did the 12 ambulance stop? 13 A: On the other side of the bend, right 14 on Highway 21, in the direction of cars that would be 15 coming from Grand Bend to Kettle Point, on that part of 16 the road. 17 Q: All right. And what happened after 18 the ambulance attendants or driver asked the Police, what 19 do we have here? 20 A: The -- the -- I -- I can't really be 21 specific on what the Officer told him. 22 Q: All right, but what happened next? 23 A: The office -- they got Nicholas. 24 Q: Who did? 25 A: The ambulance attendant.
2211 Q: All right. And how many people were 2 involved in -- in moving Nicholas from the car? 3 A: I can't -- I can't be sure, if there 4 was two (2) ambulance drivers or one (1). 5 Q: Okay. All right, and how was 6 Nicholas transported from the car to the ambulance? 7 A: They put him on a stretcher. 8 Q: Okay. All right, and did you watch 9 this? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Were you saying anything while this 12 was happening? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did Gina say anything? 15 A: I don't recall, but she asked to go 16 with Nicholas, and she was told, no. 17 Q: Did she identify who she was to the 18 Police? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: What did she tell them? 21 A: She said that that was her son, I'm - 22 - I'm their mother. I'm his mother. 23 Q: Okay. Did you identify who you were? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. And was Nicholas put into
2221 the ambulance? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what happened next? 4 A: They took him and I don't even -- I 5 don't even know if the cops stayed there at that corner 6 or not. But me and Gina got back into the blue car and 7 we turned around. We was going to go back to the camp. 8 Q: Did you? 9 A: Pardon? 10 Q: What -- what happened when you went 11 back into the car? 12 A: We had to -- it wouldn't start. We 13 had to push -- push it. When we got closer to the gates 14 some guys came out and helped us -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- but we managed to push it back. 17 Q: And so you got back in -- inside the 18 Army camp? 19 A: Yeah. Gina wanted to leave her car 20 there. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But I didn't think that was the thing 23 to do. 24 Q: She wanted to leave it out on the 25 highway?
2231 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And what happened after -- 3 what happened after you got back into the Army camp? 4 What did you do and what did Gina do? 5 A: Stood around there for a while. 6 After some point I went back down to the Park. 7 Q: Do you know what happened to Gina? 8 A: She was leaving and I -- she had my 9 kids. I got my kids and kept them on the Base with me 10 and as far as I can recall, Gina was going to Kettle 11 Point. She wanted to make her way to the hospital. 12 Q: Now what was your reaction as you 13 stood there and the officer had his gun pointed towards 14 you and Gina? 15 A: I didn't know what to think. 16 Q: Okay. What -- what -- what were your 17 feelings at that time? 18 A: I was mad. 19 Q: Why were you mad? 20 A: Because I knew that Dudley was shot. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I also knew at that time that 23 Nicholas was shot but I didn't know if my younger nephew, 24 Leland, had been hurt. 25 Q: Okay.
2241 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, when you get back into the Army 4 camp, you said that you went to get your daughters? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Were they -- 7 A: When Gina was leaving. 8 Q: Yes. And were they still at 9 Roderick's house? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And did -- at this point in 12 time, did you know where your son, Dale, was? 13 A: I seen him shortly after that. He 14 wanted to go back down to the -- to the Park, but I -- I 15 told him no. I said didn't you hear Roderick that nobody 16 under eighteen (18) is to go back there. 17 And at the same time, my brother Stewart 18 went running by with his younger son and my son wanted to 19 go back down there so bad, but because I wouldn't let 20 him, he called me a bitch and he apologized to me after. 21 I told him I understood because he really 22 wanted to go back down there. 23 Q: Okay. Did you observe his -- his 24 state of -- what type of emotional state he was in when 25 you had this exchange with him?
2251 A: It was -- it was like he want to do 2 something so bad, he couldn't keep staying still. He 3 wasn't crying. He was mad. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: He was mad. 6 Q: And you indicated that you returned 7 to the Park later that night? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You know approximately what time that 10 you returned to the Park? 11 A: It -- it would have to be within a 12 couple of hours. I would say within a couple hours. 13 Q: All right. Why did you go back to 14 the Park? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: To tell you the truth, I really -- I 19 don't know. More than likely it would -- it would be to 20 -- just to be there. 21 Q: All right. And did you -- where were 22 your children when you went back to the Park? 23 A: I think that they would have to be 24 with me. I can't remember if I -- I don't think I got 25 anyone else to watch them.
2261 Q: What did you do when you got down to 2 the Park? 3 A: We were standing around the Park 4 store and I remember Gina Johnston (phonetic) -- somebody 5 wanted to phone the hospital and see how Dudley was, and 6 me and Gina were standing by the phone there, and she's 7 the one who called. 8 And I walked away from the -- from where 9 we were standing, a little bit, and she got through to 10 the hospital, but they wouldn't give her no information 11 until she said what Dudley's birth date was. 12 And she yelled back and asked for Dudley's 13 birth date, and I -- I yelled out, and I said, March 14 17th, 1957. 15 And then after that they told Gina 16 Johnston on the phone, that she would be better off to 17 call one of Dudley's family members. 18 Q: And what phone did she use? 19 A: The phone outside the Park store. 20 Q: And who -- can you just tell us who 21 Gina Johnston is, and who she -- who is she related to? 22 A: She is Bernard George's daughter, or 23 his sister. 24 Q: All right. And is she also -- is her 25 middle name Mary?
2271 A: Yeah, it could be. 2 Q: In any event, did she call a family 3 member, to your knowledge? 4 A: No. But not to my knowledge, because 5 I had walked away from where she was talking on the 6 phone. 7 Q: All right. At some point in time did 8 you learn of Dudley George's fate? 9 A: I'm pretty sure that we called to 10 Joan Price's place. 11 Q: And who is Joan Price in relation to 12 Dudley? 13 A: It's his sister. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: I'm pretty sure we called there. But 16 she could have called to Sam's place. But I think that 17 she called to Joannie's place, also, in Port Franks, Joan 18 Price. 19 Q: How did you find out? Who told you? 20 A: That Dudley had died? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: It was through whoever we called on 23 the phone. 24 Q: Okay. And approximately what time 25 was that; do you know?
2281 A: Approximately after two (2) in the 2 morning. 3 Q: All right. And what was your 4 reaction when you heard this news? 5 A: I was mad. 6 Q: Did you do anything as a result of 7 hearing about this news? 8 A: There wasn't much I could do. 9 Q: Did you do anything, though? 10 A: I don't know what I did right then. 11 Q: All right. Were you present at the 12 time that the Park store was burned down? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: Did you participate in the burning 15 down of the Park store in the -- in the Park? 16 A: I -- I -- yeah. 17 Q: And why -- why did you help to burn - 18 - why did you help to burn down the store? 19 A: 'Cause I was mad. 20 Q: How was that done? 21 A: With -- with gas and bottles. 22 Q: Gas put into bottles? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Did you assist in making those? 25 A: Yes.
2291 Q: And where did you get the parts for - 2 - for those fire bombs? Or were they Molotov Cocktails; 3 is that fair? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I didn't -- I didn't know where the 7 rags came from. I'd didn't know where the bottles came 8 from, but I know that the gas came out of the tank at the 9 maintenance shed. 10 Q: How do you know that? 11 A: Because I was there. And I had a 12 cooking pot there to put some of those bottles in, but I 13 don't know if I went in the house and got it or not. I 14 probably did. 15 Q: Was there anyone else who was with 16 you at the maintenance building to put together the 17 Molotov cocktails? 18 A: The only one (1) other person I can 19 remember would be my nephew Dave, David Abraham or 20 Abraham David. 21 Q: Dave George? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Sometimes known as Super Dave? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. How long did you stay at the
2301 Park after that? 2 A: For a while. 3 Q: Okay. Where did you go after you 4 left the Park? 5 A: There was a lot of people at Glen's 6 and I went over there. 7 Q: Glen George's residence? 8 A: Yeah, at Glen George's. And I stayed 9 there that night. 10 Q: And that would be in the built-up 11 area? 12 A: Yeah. A lot of people stayed there. 13 Q: The next day, did you stay at the 14 barracks? 15 A: For a while I did. 16 Q: And where did you go when you left 17 the barracks? 18 A: Back to the maintenance shed. 19 Q: Was there anything different about 20 the maintenance building when you returned? 21 A: Not that I could get off the top of 22 my head. 23 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you go -- go 24 through the Park the next day? 25 A: Yes.
2311 Q: Did you collect any bullet casings or 2 any police property? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: Did you go to the command post on 5 East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: Did you go with other people? 8 A: Yeah, a group. 9 Q: And can you tell me where -- where 10 that was located? 11 A: It was on the south side of Parkway 12 Drive, in the first parking lot where -- where Dave's 13 visitors park when they go swimming on the beach. 14 Q: And when you arrived were there any 15 police officers remaining? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you recall approximately what time 18 of day this was? 19 A: Getting around noon hour. 20 Q: All right. And did you have any 21 encounter with the police? 22 A: I was yelling at them. I yelled at 23 one (1) lady who was pointing a gun at -- at me and my 24 daughter. 25 Q: And, "lady", do you have a -- was
2321 this a police officer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know her name? 4 A: Yes, I know her name, but she's not 5 alive today. I didn't know her name then but I do now. 6 Q: I'm -- I'm going to show you a 7 photograph and ask you if you can identify the people in 8 it. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, I 10 should explain that I received this photograph last night 11 and so, it has not been disclosed to the parties yet. 12 I'll certainly make a copy available. I understand it 13 was taken by a newspaper media camera person from the 14 Toronto Sun. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Do you recognize any of the people in 18 that photograph? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: All right. And do you recognize the 21 location? 22 A: It is in that parking lot on East 23 Parkway Drive. 24 Q: All right. And can you tell us who 25 the persons are in that photograph?
2331 A: You -- you can see me, my younger 2 daughter, Phoebe, we're standing beside the lady here. 3 Q: All right. Why don't we start with 4 the lady on the left -- far left, in -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- civilian clothes, holding a 7 child -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Who is that? 10 A: Sherry Lynne Bressette. 11 Q: And who is she holding? 12 A: She's holding Phoebe Plain. 13 Q: Your daughter? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And the lad in -- in the shirt that 17 says Cattail Ridge is my son, Dale. 18 Q: Dale Plain? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And the next person? 21 A: Oh, here -- is a TV reporter or a 22 news reporter -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: In the background is another one and 25 here I am standing over here. I thought was I someplace
2341 else. 2 Q: What are you wearing? 3 A: A blue jean jacket. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: And I'm holding my daughter, Julie. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And there's a -- a news reporter next 8 to her, dressed in white, holding a camera. 9 Q: Next to who? 10 A: Right beside Julie there. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And I see another news reporter, I 13 guess with his back facing. And behind him is Dave 14 George. 15 Q: Okay. You're now to the right, on 16 the right side of your photograph? 17 A: The police officer holding a gun and 18 another police officer going around to the front of the 19 car and another police officer standing by the driver 20 side door. 21 Q: All right. And do you recognize any 22 of the three (3) police officers in that photograph? 23 A: Just the lady. 24 Q: The female police officer? 25 A: Yeah.
2351 Q: And how -- how is it that you 2 recognize her? 3 A: I didn't know her at the time, not 4 until way after. Actually somebody told me her name and 5 they told me that that was the officer that got killed on 6 the side of the road. 7 Q: Can you tell me the name of that 8 police officer to the best of your information? 9 A: Mrs. -- Ms. Eve -- Eves? 10 Q: Eves? 11 A: Eves. 12 Q: All right. And is this the female 13 officer who you described earlier who had a gun pointed 14 against you, -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- towards you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And -- all right. And do 19 you -- can you tell what date this picture was taken? 20 A: This is the next morning on September 21 7th. 22 Q: 1995. 23 A: 1995. What prompted us to walk down 24 the road is that we seen police in the bushes and a cop 25 car parked out on the road and it was like -- couldn't
2361 believe they were still there. 2 Q: Okay. I'd like to mark this next -- 3 as the next exhibit. The photograph depicting the 4 witness and others and officer Eves, please. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would 6 be 131. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-131. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-131: Photograph depicting witness 10 and others together with 11 Officer Eves. 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 14 wrap it up for today, but I know you're very close to 15 completing your examination. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Not -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? So then 18 let's -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fairly close, but not 20 really close. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then I think 22 we should adjourn. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We had 25 agreed to go to 4:30.
2371 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Quite -- quite right. 2 I lost track at the time, excuse me. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a long 4 -- long day for everybody, so. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I regret 7 that we have to come back to -- to complete your evidence 8 but we do. You have to come back for cross-examination 9 in any event. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I think 12 this is a good time to adjourn for the day. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll come 15 back tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 16 THE WITNESS: Nine o'clock. 17 18 (WITNESS RETIRES) 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 21 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, January the 20th at 22 9:00 a.m. 23 24 --- Upon adjourning at 4:41 p.m. 25
2381 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 9 ________________________ 10 Wendy Warnock 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25