11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 18th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (Np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Maureen Smith )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Annie Leeks )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan Mackey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 NICHOLAS ABRAHAM COTTRELLE, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 173 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 175 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 204 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 223 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 275 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 291 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 298 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-124 Document No. 1002409, page 15 4 13, map of Ipperwash Military 5 Reserve marked by witness 6 Nicholas Cottrelle, January 18/05 7 8 P-125 "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 74 9 September 20/95, marked by 10 Witness Nicholas Cottrelle, 11 Jan 18/05 12 13 P-126 Photographs by OPP and SIU 160 14 Sept 7/95, Six Photographs 15 1) 15.1a; 2)mag 50, 15.6a; 16 3)15-7a; 4)mag 49, 15.9a; 17 5)mag 51, 15.11a; 6)mag 52, 15.15a 18 plus CD Rom 19 P-127 Document No. 1004971 Judgment of 20 Justice Graham May 26/97, Ontario 21 Court, Provincial Division, Youth 22 Court, Sarnia, Ontario 203 23 24 P-128 Pamphlet Advertising the Aazhoodena 25 Renegade Jamboree 289
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Our -- the next witness is Mr. Nicholas 10 Cottrelle. 11 12 NICHOLAS ABRAHAM COTTRELLE, Sworn 13 14 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Morning, Mr. Cottrelle. 16 A: Morning. 17 Q: I understand you were born on March 18 8th, 1979? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so that at the beginning of 21 September 1995 you were sixteen (16) years old? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And your parents are Gina Dawn George 24 and Roderick Abraham George? 25 A: Yes.
81 Q: And your father is sometimes -- his 2 nickname is Judas? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you have six (6) siblings; as I 5 understand it the oldest is your sister, Wendy George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Followed by your sister, Charlotte 8 Cottrelle? 9 A: Charmin (phonetic) 10 Q: Charmin Cottrelle? Excuse me. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Then Jody George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then you? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your younger brother is Mel 17 George? 18 A: Sister. 19 Q: Excuse me, your sister is Mel George? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And then Amanda George and Stephanie 22 George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your nickname is "Ugga"? 25 A: Yeah.
91 Q: That's U-G-G-A? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And your maternal grandparents were 4 Dorothy Shawnoo, who was from the Chippewas of Sarnia 5 First Nation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And Leo Stinson from the Chippewas of 8 Rama First Nation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And on your father's side, your 11 paternal grandparents were Abraham George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And Muriel George? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And your grandfather, Abraham George, 16 his nickname is "Hamster"? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And your grandparent -- your 19 grandfather, Abraham George, came from Stoney Point? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: His parents were Robert and Laura 22 George? 23 A: Yes, that's correct. 24 Q: And in 1995 -- in June of 1995 -- you 25 finished Grade 10 at school?
101 A: Yes, that's correct. 2 Q: And where were you attending school? 3 A: Here in Forest -- North Lambton 4 Secondary School. 5 Q: North Lambton Secondary? And in 6 September you were scheduled to go back to Grade 11? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did you go back? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And why did you not go back? 11 A: Because of my involvement down at 12 Ipperwash -- the incident down there. I felt that my 13 time was better spent there. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I felt that my time was better spent 16 at home. 17 Q: Okay, we'll come back to that later. 18 Now, the -- when did you first learn about the 19 circumstances of the appropriation? 20 A: When I was younger. All throughout 21 my childhood I was always -- it was always known to me. 22 Q: And how did you learn about that, Mr. 23 Cottrelle? 24 A: Through what my grandfather told me, 25 my mother and my father.
111 Q: And what type of things did they tell 2 you? Do you recall? 3 A: Mostly that people was uprooted in 4 '42; that they were supposed to get their land back after 5 the war was done, but it was never given back. 6 Q: And were you told anything about the 7 life at Stoney Point by your grandfather or your -- your 8 father, that he had learned? 9 A: Not so much as the life. Like, we 10 actually lived down there just more of when he moved to 11 Kettle Point that they weren't very -- they weren't very 12 welcome down there. 13 Q: Okay. And did you attend the funeral 14 of Dan George at the Army Camp? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And you would have been about eleven 17 (11) at that time? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And prior to 1993, did you -- had you 20 visited the Army Camp? 21 A: Yeah, mostly for wood cutting in the 22 winter. 23 Q: And when you say, "for wood cutting," 24 what would you do? You would -- 25 A: We were only allowed day -- a day or
121 two (1) to cut the wood for winter. We would have to go 2 to Kettle Point Band Council for -- I think it was a wood 3 cutting permit or something and we'd go through the front 4 gate and to do all this paper work. 5 Q: And you went down with your father? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the -- so you would cut the wood 8 that you needed for the winter on -- on the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did you visit -- in addition to 11 your father, did you go with anyone else? 12 A: My uncle, some -- most of the time, 13 would go along too. 14 Q: And your uncles are Stewart George? 15 A: Stewart, Elwood. 16 Q: And Elwood George? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And did you ever visit, prior to 19 1993, the Army Camp to hunt or fish? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And when you -- when did you go onto 22 the Army Camp in 1993? 23 A: I can't rem -- remember the first day 24 I went on, but I was mostly there during weekends, in 25 between school.
131 Q: And did you go on shortly after the 2 occupation? We've heard that it was on May 6th, 1993? 3 A: Sometime after, yeah. 4 Q: And -- so you were going to school at 5 the -- in Forest, at the North Lambton Secondary School 6 and you were living at Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So that you would visit on the 9 weekends? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And on the weekends, who would you 12 stay with? 13 A: Pretty much anybody, but mostly we 14 stayed -- there was a campsite there next to Dudley's 15 trailer where we mostly stayed. 16 Q: And if -- on the screen, I've got a 17 copy of the Exhibit P-40 and there's a copy of that as 18 well in front of you, Mr. Cottrelle. 19 And I wonder if you could point out on the 20 Exhibit P-40 where there's a laser -- where you stayed? 21 A: It'd be right in here. 22 Q: Okay, and to the right of the -- to 23 the right of the area you're pointing is a building that 24 is still there? 25 A: Yes.
141 Q: That's -- there's a little black dot. 2 I don't know if you can see it. It's more visible -- 3 it's just to the left of the road that runs north from 4 the rifle ranges. Is that the building that -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- that -- 7 A: That's a steel building we used for 8 storage and stuff. 9 Q: Yes. So, I wonder if you could just 10 mark on exhibit -- on the map in front of you and where 11 you stayed when you first went on to the Army camp, in 12 1993, or where the camps were of your... 13 A: (INDICATING) 14 Q: And I understand that Mr. Dudley 15 George's trailer was just on the right -- east side of 16 the road that runs down north and south by the rifle 17 ranges there. Is that your understanding? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 20 next exhibit. It'd be P-125. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. P-124, your 22 Honour. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 124? 24 THE REGISTRAR: 124. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 124, thank you.
151 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 124. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-124: Document No. 1002409, page 4 13, map of Ipperwash Military 5 Reserve marked by witness 6 Nicholas Cottrelle, January 7 18/05 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And after you finished school in 11 1995, did you spend more time at the Army camp, along the 12 rifle ranges? 13 A: In '95? 14 Q: I mean in '93, excuse me. 15 A: Like, during the summer time, 16 summer -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yeah, mostly I was down there pretty 19 much the whole summer. We had moved the bus down to the 20 beach area and mostly stayed in there, during the summer. 21 Q: The beach area -- the bus in '93 was 22 moved to the beach along Lake Huron? 23 A: Yeah. It'd be right in here. 24 Q: And you're pointing to an area just 25 west of the -- on Exhibit P-40 is the -- the point that
161 goes out into the Lake underneath the number 86. Can you 2 mark Number 2 on Exhibit P-124 where the bus was? 3 A: (INDICATING). Number 2? 4 Q: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And in the summer, the bus was moved 9 down to -- up to the beach. Is that the bus that's owned 10 by Warren George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And is that the bus that we'll hear 13 more about later, that was used on September 6th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you -- when you were up on 16 the shore, in the bus, did you sleep on the bus or did 17 you have a tent or? 18 A: Yeah, we had ripped out all the seats 19 and had it all fixed up in there, so. 20 Q: So you could sleep in it? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And who did you stay with in 23 the summer of 1993, on the bus? 24 A: It wasn't really like people that 25 stayed in there constant, it's people that came and go.
171 Mostly my cousins. 2 Q: Your cousins? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And the -- during the summer of 1993, 5 were you involved in learning about the traditions of 6 your people from Marcia Simon or others? 7 A: Yeah. A lot of people sat around the 8 fire, nighttimes, during the day, and they talked about 9 traditions and the people and stuff about the land. 10 Q: And did you become involved in a 11 society, when you moved on to the Army Camp in 1993? 12 A: Yes. It was brought to my intention. 13 Q: And can you tell us a little bit 14 about that? And could you speak up a bit, Mr. 15 Cottrelle -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- I think people may be having 18 trouble hearing you. And there's a glass of water there 19 if you need it. 20 A: Okay. It was brought to my attention 21 about the Warrior Society. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: About their roles in protecting the 24 land as well as the well-being of the people that lived 25 down there.
181 Q: And who brought that to your 2 attention? 3 A: I believe it was Glenn. 4 Q: And can you tell us a little bit more 5 about what you understood the role of the Society was? 6 A: It was more or less to protect the 7 ways of our people. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And to protect the land. 10 Q: Yes. And by protecting the land, 11 what do you mean by that? 12 A: Just against all aggressors. 13 Q: And were you to protect the land 14 using weapons or in peaceful ways, or how? 15 A: Peaceful ways. 16 Q: And -- and can you tell us a little 17 bit more about what you learned about that? 18 A: Well, with -- with the Park it was 19 always everybody's understanding that it was going to be 20 done peacefully, with no weapons. The same with the 21 occupation of the territory as a whole too, was to be 22 done peaceful. 23 Q: And did you talk to your grandfather, 24 Abraham George, about the Society? 25 A: I can't really remember.
191 Q: And the -- did part of your duties 2 involve assisting old people, the elderly -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the Elders? 5 A: Wood cutting, running errands for 6 them. 7 Q: And that was part of your -- your 8 obligation as a member of the Society? 9 A: Just common knowledge, just out of 10 respect. 11 Q: And you told me before that you would 12 not call -- call it a Warrior Society but would give it a 13 different name; can you tell me what that name was? 14 A: Myself, I prefer Peacekeepers. 15 Q: And why do you prefer Peacekeepers? 16 A: Well, that's what we're -- that's 17 what we're doing, is trying to keep the peace with the 18 situation in a whole, I guess. 19 Q: And the situation in this case, in 20 1993, it was at the Army Camp? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And along the ranges and then later 23 in a larger part of the area? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then later at the Park?
201 A: Yes. 2 Q: And in the fall of 1993, did you 3 return to school? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And how often in the fall and the 6 winter of 1993 -- how -- what -- how often did you go to 7 the Army Camp, if you went to the Army Camp? 8 A: Any chance I got, really. But during 9 the winter months it was kind of -- really not too often 10 because I didn't have a car or nothing. 11 Q: Pardon me? You didn't have a car? 12 A: Yeah. So I didn't feel like walking 13 -- walking in the wintertime. 14 Q: And in the summer of 1994 after you 15 finished school? 16 A: Yeah. I was pretty much back -- back 17 down there. 18 Q: And living in -- in around the same 19 area, along the rifle ranges of -- near the Number 1, or 20 were you back up on the beach? 21 A: We moved around quite a bit. People 22 had different -- different camps around that territory. 23 So, I kind of just stayed wherever. 24 Q: So, you would simply go and visit 25 different people and stay --
211 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- in different camps? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And in 1990 -- the winter of 1994- 5 1995 you went back to school? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did you visit the Army Camp very 8 often? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You would visit during the 13 wintertime? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And in the spring of 1995 and 16 in the summer of 1995, after you finished school but 17 before July 29th, did you live back at the Army Camp? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, when you were visiting the Army 20 camp, did you hunt on the Army camp in 1993 or 1994? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And in that period of time, were you 23 a hunter? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And in the period 1993/1994/1995,
221 prior to September 6th 1995, did you own a firearm? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And we've heard some evidence about a 4 incident with the -- alleged incident with a helicopter 5 in August of 1993. 6 Were you present in the -- on the Army 7 camp along the rifle ranges, when that incident occurred? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You were not? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And in the period 1993 and 1994, and 12 frankly up to July 29th, 1995, did you have any 13 interactions with the military or the military police on 14 the Army camp? 15 A: Quite a few, actually. 16 Q: And can you tell us what your 17 interactions were? 18 A: Jeez, I don't know where to start. 19 But there were quite a few incidents of -- when the 20 cadets were there, they would sneak through the bush and 21 -- up to the campsites, harass people there, that way. 22 Q: And when you say they -- the "cadets 23 would sneak through the bush up to the campsites and 24 harass people," what do you mean by "harass people"? 25 A: Like -- well there was the one
231 instance there were they actually took -- I don't know 2 whose dog it was, but they took their dog. I don't know 3 if they got it back or not, but -- 4 Q: And how do you know -- you say that 5 it was the cadets that did these things. How do you know 6 that, Mr. Cottrelle? 7 A: I believe it was Glen that told me. 8 Q: Did you see the -- 9 A: No, I never seen. 10 Q: And what about -- what I would like 11 to know is what you, personally were involved in with 12 respect to incidents with the military or military 13 police. 14 A: I had witnessed the range patrol. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: They would drive by with -- on their 17 loudspeakers in their trucks. 18 Q: And the range patrol would drive 19 along the where? 20 A: 21 road, along this area. 21 Q: They would run along -- drive along 22 the road that left from -- ran from the built up area 23 east, on the road parallel to Highway 21? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what would the range patrol do?
241 A: They would just say obscenities 2 through the loudspeaker, just childish stuff. 3 Q: And would they -- did they use their 4 sirens and their spotlights? 5 A: It was more -- more on their 6 loudspeaker. 7 Q: And how often would this -- in the 8 back -- and how often would this take place, that you 9 observed? 10 A: Almost daily. 11 Q: And did -- what if anything -- did 12 this occur as well in 1994 and 1995? 13 A: It was -- as far as I can remember, 14 yes. 15 Q: And what, if anything, did you do in 16 response to the comments of the range patrol? 17 A: Personally myself, I bombed their 18 truck with old fruits, tomatoes and stuff. 19 Q: And by bombing their truck, I take it 20 you mean you threw things at the truck? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so you threw tomatoes and other 23 old fruit at the truck? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you observe Mr. Dudley George
251 in any interactions with the military, when you were on 2 the camp? 3 A: A couple of times. 4 Q: And can you tell us about that? 5 A: We were just sitting around the 6 trailer and he had seen the range patrol coming down the 7 -- the road and he got all happy about it, jumped up real 8 quick and grabbed his -- his artillery on the back porch 9 where all the rotten fruit and stuff and he bombed them 10 up, threw -- threw a couple of things at his -- at their 11 truck. 12 Q: So, he would throw fruit at the truck 13 from time to time and -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And when he did this, what would the 16 range patrol do? 17 A: They would just look at us and just 18 keep going. 19 Q: But was this in response to things 20 done by the range patrol? 21 A: Yeah. They knew it too, probably. 22 Q: And did you have any discussions with 23 the range patrol or any of the military? Did you become 24 involved, prior to July 29th, 1995, in any direct 25 discussions with the military?
261 A: No. 2 Q: No? And what about in 1993 or 19 -- 3 with the Ontario Provincial Police? 4 A: No, not that I can remember. 5 Q: Okay. And -- so were you ever told, 6 I take it if you didn't have any discussions with the 7 military, were you ever told by anyone, any military 8 personnel, to leave the Army camp? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And what about the OPP? I think you 11 -- I asked you about 1993. Did you have any involvement 12 or interactions with the Ontario Provincial Police? 13 A: I don't think it was '93. It might 14 have been '94, '95 maybe. 15 Q: Okay. Did you -- in 1994, 1995 you 16 had some involvement with the Ontario Provincial Police? 17 A: Yes, I had burned down a couple of 18 military signs on the beach. 19 Q: And the signs on the beach, can you 20 tell us, pointing to Exhibit 40 that's on the screen. 21 You -- so that the signs were located -- you're pointing 22 to an area on the north end of Matheson Drive as it goes 23 down to the beach. Is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the military signs were located
271 where? 2 A: They were right along the roadway. 3 Right around the corner there. 4 Q: Just as it goes down to the beach? 5 A: Yeah, as soon as you pull on to the 6 beach, it'd be to -- to my right. 7 Q: So that, Math -- as I understand it, 8 Matheson Drive ends at the beach and carries -- carries 9 on down into the beach? 10 A: It just ends right there on the 11 beach. 12 Q: Yeah, on the beach and on the east 13 side of the beach on the part of the -- back in 19 -- 14 back in 1994/1995, there were signs delineating the Army 15 camp part of the beach? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it there were signs on the 18 west side, delineating the Ipperwash Provincial Park 19 beach? 20 A: Yes, I believe so. 21 Q: And -- so the signs that you burned 22 down were on the Army camp side? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- so tell us what happened. 25 A: Well, there was a couple more, too,
281 along the beach. I think there was, like, two (2), half 2 way down to the reef. 3 Q: And can you point out the reef? 4 A: The reef is here. 5 Q: And the reef is the area that's 6 jutting out into the Lake, on Exhibit P-40? 7 A: And the first set of signs was right 8 about there, I guess. About half way. 9 Q: You're pointing to an area east of 10 Matheson Drive, about half way to the reef? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was -- did this -- did you burn 13 all these signs down at the same time? 14 A: Ah, well, early in the afternoon, 15 we'd knocked the first set of signs with the bus. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And the second set we just built a 18 fire around them and just burnt them. 19 Q: And the second set is the one that 20 was on the beach, half way to the reef? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so what happened? 23 A: We set them on fire and went back 24 down to the campsite, down by the reef. I'd gotten 25 something to eat. And I could see -- I looked down again,
291 basically they burning up pretty good. And there was 2 quite a big -- quite a big crowd of people. 3 Q: Around the signs? 4 A: On the Provincial Park side -- 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: -- of the beach. We went down there. 7 Then the police pulled up and I remember it was a -- a 8 uniform police come over and had asked who had burnt the 9 signs down. I told him that I did. And he said that I 10 was under arrest. 11 And by that time the military police 12 showed up too. 13 Q: And so, what happened then? 14 A: He said I was under arrest and I told 15 him that he'd have to come over and get me. Then the -- 16 the police officer, he tried to grab me by the rest of 17 the way and the military police had jumped in and 18 wrestled me to the ground. 19 Q: And so, you were then -- what then 20 happened? 21 A: I was charged with mischief under 22 five thousand (5,000) and taken to Grand Bend detachment. 23 Q: And that was when you were, if it was 24 '94, you were fifteen (15), or '95, it was sixteen (16), 25 can you remember which?
301 A: Fifteen (15), I believe. 2 Q: Fifteen (15). So, it would be '94? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did they know you were fifteen 5 (15)? 6 A: I believe so. I think I told them my 7 age in the cruiser. 8 Q: Okay. And how long were you at the 9 detachment in Grand Bend? 10 A: The night, I believe. 11 Q: They kept you there overnight? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And then what happened; you were 14 released? 15 A: Yeah. I was released in the morning 16 and I phoned my mother for a ride home. 17 Q: And what happened with the charges? 18 A: I think I just got some community 19 service or something. 20 Q: You were put on probation -- you -- 21 did you pled guilty? 22 A: Or maybe, yeah, maybe a year 23 probation or something. 24 Q: Did you pled guilty? 25 A: I believe so, yeah.
311 Q: Then, was there a -- were you 2 involved, in 1995, in any other incidents with the 3 Ontario Provincial Police? 4 A: No, I don't think so. 5 Q: Did you have -- was there an incident 6 with you and Dale George or Dale Plain, when you ran out 7 of gas? 8 A: Oh, yeah. I believe we were in a 9 car -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- and that was along this creek, 12 here, at the end of Jericho Road, there's a steel bridge. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And we ran out of gas there and 15 started to walk back towards the barracks. And a police 16 -- marked police car had pulled -- pulled up to the end 17 of Jericho Road. 18 Q: So, they were on the out -- you were 19 on the inside of the Army Camp, they were on the outside 20 of the Army Camp? 21 A: Yeah. They were at Jericho and 21. 22 Q: And Jericho and 21 on Exhibit P-40 is 23 where there's a number 615, is that the area -- road 24 you're talking about -- 25 A: Yes.
321 Q: -- is Jericho Road? Yes. And so, 2 this was after you had -- the occupation of the Army Camp 3 in the summer of July -- of 1995? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Of the barracks? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so, what happened? 8 A: We were walking back and we'd seen 9 that -- a cop car pull up. Again, they got on their 10 loudspeaker and were shouting obscenities, calling us 11 wahoos and other stuff like that. 12 Q: And how many police officers were in 13 the cruiser? 14 A: I couldn't tell you, it was kind of 15 far away. 16 Q: Too far away. And so -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- were you able to recognize the -- 19 did you recognize the police officers? 20 A: No. Just -- just the car. 21 Q: And how long did they shout 22 obscenities through their -- or call you names through 23 their loudspeaker? 24 A: A minute or so. 25 Q: Pardon me?
331 A: A minute, two (2) minutes; it wasn't 2 too long. 3 Q: And had that happened to you before? 4 A: Just with the range patrol. 5 Q: And I take it that, while you weren't 6 a hunter, that other people hunted on the -- on the Army 7 Camp, after the occupation of the rifle ranges? 8 A: I believe so, yeah. 9 Q: And did you ever participate as a 10 runner or a hound? 11 A: Not during that time. 12 Q: Not during that time? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Aft -- since 1995 have you? 15 A: After '96. 16 Q: After '96...? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And a runner and a hound, can you 19 tell us what that involves? 20 A: Well, if -- if we were hunting, say 21 this -- this area here, -- 22 Q: Yes, and you're just pointing to an 23 area parallel -- 24 A: -- probably just like, in general, 25 but.
341 Q: Yes. 2 A: They would put shooters, like, along 3 this ridge here, we'd get dropped off and we'd have to 4 run through the bush this way. 5 Q: And the purpose is for the shooters 6 to be in one side, the runners or hounds on the other 7 side, and they would then -- 8 A: Yeah, chase the deer too. 9 Q: -- chase the deer through the land. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: But you did that after 1996? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, if I could take you up to the 14 summer of 1995, and in particular on July 29th, 1995, did 15 you participate in the occupation of the barracks? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And prior to the occupation of the 18 barracks, did you participate in any discussions about 19 the takeover of the barracks? 20 A: No. 21 Q: How did you come to participate in 22 the takeover of the barracks? 23 A: I think there was a meeting going 24 down on the beach, beachfront. 25 Q: Yes?
351 A: Myself, I was having a nap on the bus 2 and I just heard all these people piling on and I had 3 asked what was going on and it was brought to my 4 attention that we were going to move into the barracks. 5 Q: And was that the first that you 6 learned of the intention to move into the barracks? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so, what -- who was on the bus 9 with you? 10 A: The only ones I can remember is me 11 and Harley George. 12 Q: And Harley George is your cousin? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how old was Harley George back in 15 1995? 16 A: Same age as me, -- 17 Q: He was -- 18 A: -- that would be fifteen (15). 19 Q: -- fifteen (15) or sixteen (16)? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the other people who were on the 22 bus, were they older people, younger people, same age as 23 you? 24 A: Same age as me. There was a few of 25 them that were a little bit younger, a couple years
361 younger. 2 Q: So that, most of the people, it's 3 fair to say, were between eleven (11) and sixteen (16)? 4 A: Yes. Altogether I think there was 5 maybe about six (6) people on the bus. 6 Q: Okay. And what did you -- who was 7 driving the bus? 8 A: Harley. 9 Q: And were there other people on, when 10 you woke up -- and Harley, your cousin Harley George got 11 on the bus -- were there other people outside the bus on 12 the beach? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: And so what did you and Harley George 15 do? 16 A: We drove up Army Camp Road. 17 Q: And can you tell us -- can you, using 18 Exhibit P-40, can you point out the route that you 19 followed into the built-up area of the Army Camp? 20 A: Yes. There was -- we come up 21 Matheson Drive. 22 Q: So you went south on Matheson Drive-- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- that runs along the east boundary 25 of Ipperwash Province Park, to the inters -- to the point
371 where Matheson Drive turns and runs west, on the south 2 side of the Provincial Park? 3 A: Yes. And we come up towards Army 4 Camp Road, and past the maintenance shed, and all the way 5 up to the built-up area. 6 Q: And you, at some point, turned off 7 Matheson Drive into the Army Camp; is there a gate or was 8 there a gate back then in 1995, near the end of the road 9 that runs past the maintenance shed, that runs into 10 Matheson Drive, so that you could get onto the Army Camp? 11 A: Yeah, the fence had -- I believe that 12 the only way was, I think it was, like, right here. 13 Because I don't think that fence was cut out, yet. 14 Q: So back in 1995 -- 15 A: It was just an old gate that they had 16 used. 17 Q: So you got onto the Army Camp through 18 the old gate at the south side of -- south end of 19 Matheson Drive? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So, you drove on the road parallel to 22 the Matheson Drive, on the inside of the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you followed the road that then 25 turns and leads south, parallel to Army Camp Road?
381 A: Yes. That's this road here. 2 Q: And then, when you got to the built- 3 up area of the Army Camp, the barracks area, what did you 4 do? 5 A: There was a locked gate right out 6 near the old compound here. 7 Q: And the fence that the gate was in 8 still exists today, does it not? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it runs immediately east of -- 11 from the end of the compound where the -- the old cars 12 are stored? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So that, there was a locked gate 15 there. What did you do with the -- about the gate? 16 A: We just drove through it and then we 17 proceeded to the parade square. 18 Q: And in front of you is a copy and on 19 the screen is a copy of P-41. So, using P-41, when you - 20 - you drove to the parade square and can you just, using 21 the laser, can you point out where you drove to? 22 A: Yes. We came through the gate, up 23 through here. I believe we drove down past the front 24 gate and we ended up right -- right in here. 25 Q: And you're pointing to an area in
391 front of building number 26, which is the -- 2 A: Northeast -- 3 Q: -- drill hall and rec building? 4 A: Yeah. Northeast corner. 5 Q: In the northeast corner. So, you 6 were just south or southwest of the -- of the drill hall 7 and rec building? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Then, when you got to the gate, the 10 locked gate, how did you know it was locked? 11 A: I believe there was a chain around 12 it. 13 Q: Okay. And did you stop and look at 14 it or simply drive through it? 15 A: No, we just drove through it. 16 Q: And were there any other vehicles or 17 people behind or -- the school bus, when you went through 18 the gate? 19 A: No. I believe the rest of the people 20 were coming up through -- through the east side of the 21 Camp, along 21. 22 Q: So that, there were other people that 23 entered -- left the beach area and went through the 24 eastern part of the Camp to the road that runs parallel 25 to Highway 21 and then went west into the built-up area?
401 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so, when you got to the area on 3 the parade square in front of the drill hall and rec 4 centre, what happened? 5 A: We were surrounded by military Jeeps, 6 military police personnel. 7 Q: And how many -- do you recall how 8 many Jeeps and how many military personnel? 9 A: Two (2) -- two (2) or three (3) 10 Jeeps, I believe, and maybe six (6) -- six (6) MP's, five 11 (5) or six (6) MP's. 12 Q: And what then happened? 13 A: This one (1) fellow, he had jumped on 14 the bus, a military police. He had a crowd control size 15 bottle of pepper spray. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And he immediately started to pepper- 18 spray Harley. 19 Q: Yes. And then what happened? 20 A: Well, Harley jumped up and started 21 swinging at him. I think he tagged him a couple times 22 and backed him up out of the bus. I jumped out the back 23 door and circled around to the front. By that time 24 pretty much everybody was cleared off the bus. 25 He tried to start spraying everybody that
411 was on the bus, with the pepper spray, but he was 2 spraying upward and it just came back on him. He -- he 3 couldn't see. 4 Q: So that, they -- the military police 5 officer who was spraying with this pepper spray, sprayed 6 Harley and he was -- was spraying others, but it came 7 back on him? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Then what happened? 10 A: Another -- I think it was another 11 Jeep, it might have been their boss or whatever, he 12 pulled up and grabbed the guy and he just told everybody 13 to get back, and they left. 14 Q: And what did you do -- what did you 15 and Harley do and the others who were on the bus? 16 A: We just, were standing around there, 17 then I think everybody else pulled up, my other cousins, 18 Glenn, Marlin; I can't really remember who was all there 19 but it's kind of the meeting place. 20 Q: So, other cars pulled up on the 21 parade square when you were there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what did you do with the bus? 24 A: We just -- we just parked it there. 25 I can't remember if we -- if we moved it -- like, moved
421 it elsewhere. 2 Q: And when you were -- were on the bus 3 with Harley, did you run through the drill hall doors? 4 A: No, not that I can remember. 5 Q: And did you hit any military 6 vehicles? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And so the -- the bus is parked on 9 the parade square, you've had this incident with the 10 military police, the other -- your cousins, including 11 Glen George, arrived; then what happened? 12 A: We were pretty much just standing 13 around talking, and I can't remember how -- what the time 14 frame was but we'd be -- I don't know what you would call 15 him, he was kind of running the show up there, in the 16 built-up area, he had come over and explained to us that 17 he had very little stuff in the barracks, they were going 18 to pack up what they had there and they were going to be 19 leaving. 20 Q: And this was a senior military 21 officer or did you know who he was? 22 A: Yeah, I'd imagine so. I don't -- 23 Q: You didn't know who he was at the 24 time? 25 A: No.
431 Q: And when you went into the built-up 2 area, did you or anyone else on the bus have any 3 firearms? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And did you see anyone of the 6 occupiers, on September 6th, 1995 -- excuse me, on July 7 29th, 1995, at the parade square, with any firearms? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And did the military police officers 10 who came up and surrounded the bus, did they have 11 firearms? 12 A: Not that I seen. 13 Q: Did -- okay. And so what happened? 14 The commander said that -- or the officer said that they 15 were going to leave; and then what happened? 16 A: I believe we went to the kitchen for 17 a meal. They had -- maybe building -- building 18. 18 Q: Building 18 on the -- 19 A: What is it? P-41. 20 Q: And building 18 is the building that 21 you're pointing out with the laser -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- it's to the northwest -- well, 24 that would be southwest of the building 26, the drill 25 hall?
441 A: Yeah. I believe it was the only 2 kitchen operational, they he had left it fully stocked 3 with the freezer and the fridge so we went over and had a 4 big cook-out. 5 Q: And how many people -- do you recall 6 how many people there were on the Army Camp, the 7 occupiers, on the evening of July 29th, 1995? 8 A: Twenty (20), thirty (30), maybe. 9 Q: And what was the mood of the 10 occupiers? 11 A: Good feelings. Everybody felt good 12 about it. 13 Q: And did they -- what were your -- 14 after the military -- I take it the military -- did the 15 military leave that day, later that day? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: And did they return at some point, 18 that you were aware of? 19 A: Yes. I believe it was maybe a couple 20 weeks later or a week later, they had brought their 21 maintenance guys down. They had shown -- Dudley was one 22 (1) of them, Joe (phonetic) George -- how to take care of 23 the Camp with respect to the boilers, what to check for 24 in the kitchens, water, the water plant. 25 Q: So that the occupiers could look
451 after and operate the -- the utilities that -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- were required for the Army Camp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in the -- after the initial 6 occupation of the barracks in July 19 -- 29th, 1995, did 7 you observe any increased police activity, in or around 8 the Army Camp? 9 A: Not that I noticed. 10 Q: And in the August -- after the 11 occupation in -- of the built-up area on July 29th, 1995, 12 I take it people moved into various buildings in the 13 built-up area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you move into the built-up 16 area? 17 A: Yeah. I was mostly staying at my 18 father's. 19 Q: And your father came in, not 20 immediately but he came in, I think he said a couple of 21 weeks after July 29th, moved in? 22 A: I believe so, yes. 23 Q: And can you tell us where you -- 24 where you stayed when you were with your father? 25 A: 37.
461 Q: And building 37 is along the -- it's 2 immediately north of Highway 21? 3 A: Yes. It's this one right here. 4 Q: Thank you. And prior to your -- your 5 father moving in, where did you stay? 6 A: Like, I had -- 7 Q: Did you have a point or did you go 8 back and forth? 9 A: Just kind of all over, I guess. 10 Q: Okay. And in August of 1995, were 11 you aware or did you observe any people, in the Army -- 12 built-up area of the Army Camp, with hunting rifles? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you know if any of the people 15 in the built-up area had hunting rifles? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Some of the people there were, you 18 knew, hunters? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in the -- the summer of 1995, in 21 August of 1995, were you involved in a -- or observe an 22 incident with yourself and Kevin Simon at Ipperwash Park? 23 A: Yeah. Actually, we had walked over 24 to the store. 25 Q: The store in the Provincial Park?
471 A: Yes. I think to grab some pop, ice 2 cream or something. We were sitting outside and this OPP 3 cruiser pulled up and told Kevin that he was under 4 arrest. But they thought that he must have been somebody 5 else because I don't think they said that -- his name. 6 And he had told them that he wasn't going 7 to go with them. They wrestled around a little bit and 8 eventually Kevin got away from the first -- the initial 9 contact, I guess. 10 Q: And so you were on a park bench 11 outside the -- 12 A: A picnic table. 13 Q: -- picnic table outside the Park 14 store? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: An, so, you observed the -- Kevin 17 Simon running away? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did you see Kevin Simon again? 20 A: Just when he was in the back of the 21 cruiser, coming back up the Park road. 22 Q: So, Kevin Simon ran east -- 23 A: I don't know how far he got away 24 but -- 25 Q: But he went east into the Provincial
481 Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then you saw him coming back in a 4 cruiser? 5 A: Yeah, so. 6 Q: And did you have any discussions with 7 the OPP at that time? 8 A: No. They -- they didn't even pay any 9 attention to me. 10 Q: And turning now to the Provincial 11 Park and prior to September 4th, 1995, had you had any 12 discussions with anyone about the Provincial Park and did 13 you learn anything about the Provincial Park, from 14 anyone? 15 A: I knew it was a piece of the land, of 16 the territory. 17 Q: You knew that it was a piece of land 18 that was part of the Stoney Point land? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And who did you learn that from? 21 A: My grandfather. 22 Q: And that's Abraham George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did your grandfather tell you 25 anything else about the land, the Park?
491 A: He had said that there was burial 2 grounds along the maintenance shed road. 3 Q: And that's the road that, on Exhibit 4 P-40, runs just -- you're pointing it out there -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- it's, on the map P-40, runs from 7 Matherson Drive, which is along the southern border of 8 the Provincial Park, about a quarter (1/4) of the way 9 east of Army Camp Road and goes up to the main east-west 10 road inside the Park; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And ultimately ends near the existing 13 reservoir and pump house? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And so, what did your grandfather 16 tell you about that? 17 A: Just said along that ridge there, 18 there was burial sites there. He had talked about them 19 having picnics down there when he was a kid. I guess he 20 used to clean the tables off and stuff for -- I forget, I 21 think he said a nickel or something -- he would clean up 22 after the picnics they had down there. 23 Q: There were picnics down -- 24 A: When -- 25 Q: -- when it was a provincial park or
501 before it was a provincial park? 2 A: Ah, way -- no, way before. He was 3 just a kid then. 4 Q: Oh, when he was a kid. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And really didn't say too much more 8 that I can remember. 9 Q: And they -- now, that road, what's 10 happened to that road that ran north from the maintenance 11 area? 12 A: We blocked it off. 13 Q: And it's -- today it's overgrown? 14 A: Pretty much, yeah. 15 Q: And why did you block -- why was it 16 blocked off? 17 A: Just, he had asked us to block it off 18 just because of the fact that I believe that the road 19 actually goes over some grave sites; it's pretty -- kind 20 of disrespectful. 21 Q: And that was your grandfather -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- asked the -- the group to do that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- prior to September 4th,
511 1995, did you participate in any discussions about the 2 Provincial Park, with the occupiers of the Army Camp? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And how did you learn about the 5 intention or how did you learn about the occupation of 6 the Provincial Park? 7 A: I believe I was -- I'm not too sure 8 if they had a meeting on the waterfront or not, it was 9 just -- I was just made aware that we were going to go in 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. And who made you aware? 12 A: I believe it was -- it was my father 13 I was talking to. 14 Q: And can you tell us what happened on 15 the afternoon of September 4th, prior to the occupation 16 of the Park? 17 A: Myself, I was along the waterfront 18 and somebody had came down, I can't remember who it was, 19 and they said that they had my father and my uncle Stuart 20 surrounded at the end of Matherson Drive. 21 Q: And at the end of -- on the north end 22 of Matheson Drive, just by the beach? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: I went down there and -- and, I
521 believe he had his -- he had a Trans-Am, it was, like, an 2 '80 or something. And there was approximately four (4) 3 or five (5) police cruisers and maybe eight (8) or -- 4 eight (8) or so uniformed police officers. And there was 5 -- I think there was two (2) undercover's on the 6 Provincial Park side of the beach. 7 Q: And you say there were two (2) 8 undercover's on the Provincial Park side of the beach; 9 how do you know -- why do you say there were two (2) 10 undercover's on the Park side of the beach? 11 A: They were sitting near the -- well, 12 at first they appeared like they were two (2) families. 13 And I believe Stuart opened the door and hit the cruiser. 14 So they were going to arrest him for mischief or 15 something. 16 And the one (1) uniformed police officer 17 looked over and waived -- waived those two (2) guys over. 18 And they come running over and they knew all -- all the 19 cop lingo, police, how they talk and stuff, so. 20 Q: So, a uniformed police officer waived 21 to two (2) people on the Park side -- the beach on the 22 Park side, and the two (2) people came over and they -- 23 you assumed they were undercover because they knew the 24 police officers? 25 A: Yeah. They knew all the talk and
531 what they should do, so. 2 Q: And so, then what happened? 3 A: Then my cousin Dave showed up, Dave 4 George. And I believe my father told him to cut the 5 trees down on Matheson Drive. 6 Q: And yes, what else do you recall? 7 A: They just kind of looked around and 8 Dave took off and shortly after the police left. 9 Q: And after that, how long after that 10 incident did the occupation of the Park take place; do 11 you recall? 12 A: An hour and half (1 1/2), maybe, two 13 (2) hours. 14 Q: Okay. And what happened with the 15 occupation of the Park; what did you do? 16 A: We had met right at the end of this 17 paved road, where it meets up with Matheson Drive. 18 Q: And you're pointing to the road that 19 runs east-west or west-east inside the Park from Army 20 Camp Road, over to the Matheson Drive? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you say "we met", how did you 23 come to meet at the road that ends at Matheson Drive? 24 A: Well myself, I can just remember 25 coming back up from the beach camp and that's kind of
541 where everybody was gathered. 2 Q: Okay, but, how did you know to come 3 up from the beach? What I'm getting at, Mr. Cottrelle, 4 is how did you know that it -- to come up at the time -- 5 that people -- at this point in time, to go into the 6 Park? Did somebody tell you to do that? Did you -- 7 A: No, I can't -- I can't really 8 remember. 9 Q: So, at any rate, you were on the 10 beach and you went up to the Park entrance on the east 11 side. Who else was with you? 12 A: Myself, my father, Carolyn (phonetic) 13 George, she was -- I believe she was there again, she 14 went through the main entrance. 15 Q: And by the main entrance, you're 16 referring to the entrance -- 17 A: In the Park, along the Army Camp 18 Road. 19 Q: Okay. But what I'm asking about is, 20 at the initial entry into the Park, to tell me as much as 21 you can recall. You've met with some people at the end of 22 Matheson Drive -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and the road that leads into 25 Matheson Drive. Was there -- was there a fence there?
551 A: Yeah. There was a -- it was kind of 2 like a double fence. It was chained and locked. 3 Q: And on the inside of the fence, was 4 there anything blocking the gate? 5 A: There used to be cement blocks 6 blocking the entrances but the MNR had moved them. 7 Q: And when you say there used to be 8 cement blocks blocking the entrance, can you describe 9 those cement blocks? 10 A: They were approximately four (4) by 11 five (5) by maybe three (3) feet. They were pretty big 12 blocks. 13 Q: And during the summer were the blocks 14 blocking that gate? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I take it that gate, during the 17 summer and the camping season, wasn't used? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And was it normal, from your 20 experience, for the MNR to move the blocks at the end of 21 the camping season? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? 24 A: I -- I wouldn't see why they would 25 move them.
561 Q: But had you noticed them being moved 2 or had you even observed these blocks -- 3 A: I knew they were there all summer. 4 It just -- it seemed kind of weird that they had moved 5 them during that time period. 6 Q: But had you observed those blocks in 7 1994 and 1993? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And but, had -- did you observe those 10 blocks being moved in the fall? 11 A: No. No. 12 Q: So, the blocks were moved, were not 13 there. And so, what did -- what happened? What did you 14 do? 15 A: Well, when we were there we were met 16 by -- I think there was, like, two (2) OPP cruisers and 17 maybe one (1) or two (2) MNR vehicles. I think the 18 reason why I went down to the beach, I think I grabbed 19 the bolt cutters, I'd cut the lock and the chains on the 20 Park gate and we just opened it up and went in. 21 Q: And how many people were with you 22 when you went in? 23 A: I can't really remember. 24 Q: And I think your father testified 25 that he wasn't there, he came later; do you re -- is that
571 your recollection or -- 2 A: I'm not too sure. 3 Q: Do you recall who else was with you? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And did you have any conversations 6 with the police officers? 7 A: No. They were pretty much there, 8 just watching. 9 Q: And did you have any conversations 10 with -- were there people from the Ministry of Natural 11 Resources there? 12 A: Yeah. Nothing was said that I can 13 remember. 14 Q: And did you recognize any of the 15 people from the Ministry of Natural Resources? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And how many people from the Ministry 18 of Natural Resources were there? 19 A: There was two (2) cars, maybe three 20 (3) or four (4) guys. 21 Q: And so, you're inside the park, what 22 happened then? 23 A: We just proceeded on. I laid a 24 little bit of tobacco down myself. 25 Q: I missed that.
581 A: I laid some tobacco down. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I think eventually we ended up at -- 4 by the water treatment plant there. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And the MNR, they were at the 7 maintenance shed and I can't remember how long after 8 though, but all the keys were handed over. 9 Q: Were you present when the keys were 10 handed over? 11 A: No. 12 Q: So, you learned later that keys were 13 provided -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you said that you laid down some 16 tobacco; and why did you do that, Mr. Cottrelle? 17 A: Well, I just asked the Creator that 18 he look over -- watch over all of us. 19 Q: And so, what did you do after you 20 entered the Park? You were over by the pump house, the 21 reservoir; what did you do? 22 A: Myself, I kind of just cruised around 23 for a little while, checking things out. 24 Q: And when you say you cruised around, 25 did you do it in a vehicle or walk around?
591 A: Yes. I had I believe it was, like, 2 '80, '81 Malibu. 3 Q: And was that a -- can you tell us 4 what colour was it? Is it a blue Malibu with flames on 5 it? 6 A: Yes. Tinted windows. 7 Q: Okay. And -- okay. And then what 8 did you do? 9 A: I don't know, it was kind of, really 10 uneventful, from what I can remember. We might have 11 started a couple fires, a fire somewhere, maybe. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Other than that, there, I believe -- 14 I can't remember anything that really happened; just 15 people hanging out. 16 Q: And were there campers, at this point 17 in time, still in the Park? 18 A: No. Everybody had left by then. 19 Q: And did something -- what about the - 20 - the -- were there police officers in the Park? 21 A: They might have been at the 22 maintenance shed. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: But from -- as long as, like, as far 25 as the waterfront, I don't remember seeing any.
601 Q: And were you present when there was a 2 incident between your father and the OPP, later on 3 September 4th? 4 A: Yeah. That was, geez, 9:30, it was 5 already dark by then. 6 Q: And can you tell us what happened? 7 A: Well, later on that evening, they 8 were along the main entrance there, I believe they call 9 it the kiosk or something. 10 Q: The -- and you're referring to the 11 main entrance. It's not really shown on the -- on 12 Exhibit P-40, but the entrance off -- the entrance off 13 Army Camp Road runs into the Park south of the -- what -- 14 the Park store, and there was a gatehouse or kiosks 15 there -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- that campers went by when they 18 went into the Park; is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at the time do you recall -- I 21 think it was a brown building? 22 A: Yeah, it was. 23 Q: A small brown building? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And so, the police cruisers were near
611 the kiosk by the main entrance? 2 A: Yes. And I believe their cars were 3 facing Army Camp Road. 4 Q: Yes. And how many cars or -- do you 5 recall? 6 A: There were five (5) or six (6). 7 Q: And so, tell us what happened; what 8 did you observe? 9 A: Everybody was kind of standing 10 around. There was, well, people I was standing around 11 with, was Dave George, Wes, everybody was -- we were kind 12 of in a circle towards the Park store and the rest of the 13 police and MNR, they were more towards their cruisers. 14 Q: Out by the main entrance? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And so, your group was by the Park 17 store. What were you doing? Just standing around there? 18 A: Yeah. We were just kind of standing 19 around the fire. And we were wondering when they were 20 going to take off. 21 Q: And you were wondering when the OPP 22 would take off? 23 A: Yeah. And the MNR, they were going 24 to leave. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
621 A: So, I heard my father's car cruise 2 up. He was with my mother. And I'd walked over and told 3 him that the cops weren't going to leave. He jumped out, 4 proceeded to walk towards them and I went and got some of 5 the guys. 6 Q: So, your father jumped out of his car 7 and walked towards the police officers -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- and the MNR people? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you went and got some other 12 people from the Park store? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then what happened? 15 A: I went and got them and we followed 16 behind my father. I believe we walked over to George 17 Speck's car. 18 Q: And were you familiar with Mr. Speck? 19 A: A little bit. 20 Q: You had had dealings with him? 21 A: Not personally. 22 Q: But was he from the force, the OPP 23 detachment? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And yes, then what happened?
631 A: From what I can remember, he was 2 talking to George about something and he had told the 3 rest of the OPP that were around the area, including 4 George Speck, that they should get the 'f' out of there. 5 And I think that's when he busted the back 6 window -- 7 Q: And -- 8 A: -- on the cruiser. 9 Q: -- do you recall what he broke the 10 back window with? 11 A: I believe it was, like, a walking 12 stick or something. 13 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 14 A: Then the cops just piled in their 15 cars and they took off, MNR included. 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do after 17 that? 18 A: I just went back to the fire, I 19 believe. 20 Q: And where did you stay that night? 21 A: I can't remember if I stayed, fell 22 asleep down there or if I went back up to the barracks. 23 Q: And do you recall any firecrackers in 24 the Park that evening? 25 A: I think there were, like, flares,
641 like a strobe light flare. 2 Q: Can you describe that? Is that a 3 flare, a big, long flare that -- 4 A: No. They're just -- they're about as 5 big as a quarter with a wick on them. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I think Wes -- Wes had them. 8 Q: And Wes is your cousin Wesley George? 9 A: Yes. And he was just lighting them 10 and throwing them into the circle of the police officers. 11 Q: And you observed that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you hear any other 14 firecrackers? 15 A: No. I think he just had those strobe 16 lights. 17 Q: And on the evening of September 4th, 18 did you observe any firearms in the Park, in the hands of 19 the occupiers? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And the -- so, you stayed in the Park 22 or you -- you can't recall if you stayed in the Park the 23 evening of September 4th or went back to the barracks. 24 Can you tell me, did you hear any firearms, gunshots or 25 what sounded like gunshots, during the night of September
651 4th-September 5th? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And the -- on September 5th what did 4 you do? 5 A: I believe I woke up and that I got 6 something to eat and went back down towards -- went 7 towards the Park, back down to the Park. 8 Q: And there are video clips of a blue 9 car with flames racing around the Park near the -- the 10 sandy parking lot that's on the west -- to the west of 11 the Park store. 12 And did you drive your car down to -- by 13 the Park store? 14 A: Yes. That was probably me. 15 Q: And were you racing around in your 16 car? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And why were you doing that? 19 A: Something to do, I guess. There is 20 really no reason behind it. 21 Q: And so you went down to the Park. 22 Did you spend most of the day in the Park on September 23 5th? Can you tell us what tell us what you remember? I 24 know it's a long time ago, and only lawyers ask you what 25 happened nine (9) years ago, but --
661 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- tell us as much as you can 3 remember what happened on September 5th. 4 A: Honest, I really can't remember too 5 much. Everything was pretty much uneventful. Just 6 people sitting around, having picnics around the Park 7 store. There was always people coming and going, 8 dropping food donations off, hamburgers, hotdogs, stuff 9 like that, lunch meat. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: But I can't remember if that was that 12 day that all the reporters and stuff, there, showed up 13 and kind of noticed there was more police buildup during 14 that day. 15 Q: Okay. And did you -- when you say 16 there was more police buildup, what did you -- what do 17 you mean by that, Mr. Cottrelle? 18 A: Just driving by the sandy parking 19 lot, I don't know if it was that day or the next, then 20 the police boat showed up. 21 Q: Yes. And could you observe the 22 police boat? 23 A: Yes. It was just off of the water 24 treatment plant, down the point, there. 25 Q: So that the water treatment plant is
671 just to the south -- 2 A: Right in there. And the police boat 3 maybe would have been not too far out, enough where I 4 could see that the police decals on the side. 5 Q: So you could see that -- you could 6 observe that the boat had the police on the side of it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And it was off the beach of the -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- Provincial Park, north in Lake 11 Huron? 12 A: Yeah. Northwest, there. 13 Q: Northwest? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And the police officers, did you 16 observe any checkpoints on September 5th, on Army Camp 17 Road? 18 A: Not -- not that I can remember. 19 Q: Okay. And what else -- can you 20 recall anything else that happened on September 5th? 21 A: I'm not too sure if that was the day 22 that the helicopter circled above the Park store. 23 Q: But tell us about the helicopter on 24 either September 5th or September 6th, there was a 25 helicopter that came to the Park?
681 A: Yeah. I -- I believe it was on the 2 5th. We were sitting around, having lunch, and we can 3 hear this helicopter off in the distance. And eventually 4 it was pretty much right over the heads of everybody. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Tree top level, it just blew 7 everything all around. 8 Q: And what happened? Did you observe - 9 - how -- anyone in the helicopter? 10 A: Just the one (1) guy, there, he was 11 hanging out the side, he had a video camera. 12 Q: And do you recall the colour of the 13 helicopter? 14 A: I believe it was red -- 15 Q: Red? 16 A: -- orange. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: Red or orange, I believe. 19 Q: And how long did the helicopter stay 20 in the area by the Park store? 21 A: Four (4), five (5) minutes maybe. 22 Q: Okay. And the -- then it left? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: It went over the maintenance --
691 maintenance building area. 2 Q: Okay. And did you observe the 3 helicopter at any other time? 4 A: Not that I can remember, no. 5 Q: And on the 5th or on the 6th, do you 6 recall anything else -- on the 5th, excuse me, do you 7 recall anything else happening? 8 A: I'm not sure-- we barricaded all of 9 the entrances, gates and stuff. 10 Q: And the -- you barricaded the 11 entrances and gates, are you referring to the gate just 12 to the west of the park store? 13 A: Yeah, by the Sandy parking lot there. 14 Q: Now, it's part of -- 15 A: Oh, yeah, okay, right here. The main 16 entrance and Matheson Drive. 17 Q: So that there was a -- and why did 18 you barricade the entrance by the Sandy parking lot, the 19 main entrance and Matheson Drive? 20 A: Just to lock everything down, block 21 all entrances. 22 Q: And why were you doing that? 23 A: Just to keep people out. 24 Q: Okay. And did you, on September 5th, 25 observe any Provincial Police Officers, or anyone from
701 the MNR, along the fence line? 2 A: I can't remember. It was either the 3 5th or the 6th -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I believe it was the 5th though, 6 because people were talking about a Court injunction, and 7 I pulled up at the park store and there was a news lady 8 from CBC, and I just -- the Kobayashi for the MNR. And 9 he was there and I believe it was Mark Wright. 10 Q: And where were they? 11 A: They were along the fence line, right 12 near the turn -- turn style. 13 Q: The turn style? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And the gate and the turn style are 16 on the south end of the -- of the parking lot that runs 17 in front of the park store, is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it's on the south end of the 20 Sandy parking lot, running from Army Camp Road, the 21 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway down to - 22 - up north to the lake? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So, did you -- were you -- did you 25 know who Mr. Kobayashi was?
711 A: Yeah, I seen him on the news earlier. 2 Q: You had seen him on the news? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And so Mr. Kobayashi was along the 5 fence line and you said more PP Officers, Mark Wright -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- how would you -- how did you know 8 it was Mark Wright? 9 A: I believe he was on the news doing a 10 press release or something too, earlier. 11 Q: So you had recognized him from the 12 television? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And there was a television reporter 15 there as well? 16 A: Yeah, she was with CBC Radio, I 17 believe. 18 Q: Oh, it was a radio reporter? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: How do you know that the person was 21 with CBC? 22 A: I believe I talked -- talked with her 23 very briefly -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- I asked her where she was from.
721 Q: So, what happened? 2 A: I pulled up in my car, and they were 3 two/three (2/3) feet away, I could pull up that close to 4 the fence. Kobayashi wasn't saying too much, it was more 5 Mark Wright that was doing all the talking. He'd asked 6 me who the leader was in the camp, in the Park, and I had 7 told him that there was no leader. 8 He said -- he kept asking if there's 9 anybody that he could talk to? And I said, probably not, 10 they're -- probably nobody he could really talk to. 11 And then he asked if I could just pass 12 that message on to everybody, and I said, yeah. And fair 13 enough, and I took off. 14 Q: And I anticipate that we will hear 15 evidence from Mark Wright, that you told him that we were 16 going to do our talking with guns. 17 Did you say that to Mr. Wright? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And did you say that to any officer 20 along -- when you were in the Park? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And the -- on September the 5th, were 23 your sisters in the Park? 24 A: They were there pretty much the whole 25 time.
731 Q: And -- 2 A: It was -- there was a checkpoint done 3 right by the Sandy parking lot there, on Army Camp Road, 4 I think it turns into East Parkway drive, I believe. 5 Q: And there's -- on there -- behind you 6 there's a -- a drawing of the intersection of East 7 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road that's been marked 8 earlier, as Exhibit P-123, and the -- when you say 9 checkpoint, what do you refer to? 10 A: There was just a marked OPP cruiser, 11 and there was at least two (2) guys there, they had 12 tactical coveralls on, the grey -- grey coveralls, black 13 bulletproof vests and black hat. 14 Q: And they were -- when did they -- 15 when did you observe that car first parked at the 16 intersection? 17 A: I believe it was the 5th maybe, or 18 that morning, somewhere in there. I can't really 19 remember. 20 Q: Okay. And where was it parked? 21 A: It'd be right in that area. 22 Q: And you're pointing to an area just 23 at the curve of -- at -- at the curve to the west of the 24 Sandy parking lot? 25 A: Yes.
741 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could mark 2 that the next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 125. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-125, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-125. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-125: "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 7 September 20/95,marked by 8 Witness Nicholas Cottrelle, 9 Jan 18/05 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And could you just mark, there's a 13 black marker, Mr. Cottrelle, on the desk in front of you, 14 would you just mark on Exhibit 125, where the Police 15 Cruiser was parked on September 5th. And could you put a 16 1 beside it, sir. 17 And how -- how long do you recall the -- 18 the car being there, or cars being there? 19 A: A couple hours at a time, I believe. 20 Q: Okay. And so what happened, did you 21 observe anything with respect to the -- the car? 22 A: My sisters, they had taken mirrors 23 out of the -- one (1) of the Park washrooms. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And they were reflecting the sunlight
751 onto the cars, on the cruisers. 2 Q: From -- and they -- and where were 3 your sisters, inside the Park? 4 A: Yeah, they'd be along the first 5 treeline. 6 Q: And the first treeline on Exhibit P- 7 125 can be seen, there's the trees that are marked, 8 there's the turnstile and then the gate, is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that fence ends at a -- there's a 11 bank of sand at the -- there's a little hill at the south 12 end of where the fence ends? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And -- or the gate ends. So, how -- 15 your sisters -- which sisters were you referring to? 16 A: I believe it was my three (3) younger 17 sisters. 18 Q: And that would be? 19 A: Mel, Amanda and Stephanie. 20 Q: And in 1995, how old was Mel? 21 A: Mel would have been twelve (12). 22 Q: And Amanda? 23 A: Ten (10). And my youngest sister 24 would have been eight (8). 25 Q: Eight (8).
761 A: Maybe seven (7), somewhere in there. 2 Q: So they were shining sun onto the 3 police cruiser during the -- during the afternoon of 4 September 5th? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. Now, the -- in the evening of 7 September 5th, 1995, were you involved in taking picnic 8 tables out into the sandy parking lot? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And can you tell us what happened? 11 What did you do? 12 A: We were just moving all these old -- 13 kind of like the old beat up picnic tables out to -- it'd 14 be right in this area here, because I think we had a fire 15 going here somewhere. 16 Q: So you're referring on Exhibit P-125, 17 to the area just west of the gate into the Park, and the 18 turnstile? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yes. You had the fire and you were 21 moving the picnic tables out there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what were you doing with the 24 picnic tables? 25 A: I believe we were going to try to
771 block this off a little bit. 2 Q: And when you say block this off, 3 you're referring to the -- the -- 4 A: The access to the beach. 5 Q: -- the access to the beach and the 6 sandy parking lot? 7 A: Yeah. Well, right in this area here, 8 so -- 9 Q: In the centre? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And on that map it's -- I think it 12 says sand covered park -- park -- parking lot -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- and it's that area? 15 A: Yeah. It's pretty narrow. 16 Q: And so why were you trying to block 17 off the access to the beach? 18 A: We, more or less, kind of, I don't 19 know, just, kind of, get, like, a -- a little barricade 20 around the fire there -- the gate to the Park. We start 21 moving the tables out there and all these OPP cruisers 22 showed up they had, like, the ram bars on front and they 23 start hitting all of -- all of the tables. 24 Q: So, let's just go step by step. The 25 -- you started to move picnic tables out into the eastern
781 part of the Sandy Parking Lot just east of where is says 2 "Sand Covered Parking Lot" -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- on Exhibit P125? And how many 5 picnic tables were in the Sandy Parking Lot when the 6 police cruisers arrived? 7 A: I'd say maybe nine (9). 8 Q: And how were they set up? Were they 9 set up blocking the whole parking lot or you said they 10 were around the fire? 11 A: No, they were just -- they were just, 12 initially, just getting moved. They were just, kind of, 13 scattered. 14 Q: Okay. And did you know what the plan 15 was -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- or was it -- you don't know what 18 the plan was to what to do with them after you got them 19 there? 20 A: Yeah. We were just kind of moving 21 them. 22 Q: So, how many cruisers arrived? 23 A: I believe there was four (4) or five 24 (5). 25 Q: And what did the cruisers do?
791 A: They start ramming the picnic tables. 2 3 Q: And when you say "they started 4 ramming the picnic tables" the -- how fast was the 5 cruiser -- were the cruisers going? 6 A: Well, they had a -- they probably had 7 a run at it from the paved road because they kind of 8 lined up here at the paved road. So that's got to be, I 9 don't know, maybe or thirty (30) or forty (40) feet 10 maybe. 11 They had a run at it. I can't say how 12 fast they were going. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: They were busting tables though, and 15 that, they were hitting them. 16 Q: And so where were they pushing the 17 tables, the police? 18 A: Right against the fence. 19 Q: They were pushing them towards the 20 fence? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And where were you when the police 23 cars arrived? 24 A: Right next to the turnstile. Myself 25 and Stewart George were moving a table --
801 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- and the cruiser actually hit it 3 when we were still holding it. I believe I jumped out of 4 the way. I almost got run over. 5 Q: And the -- what happened, the 6 cruisers pushed the -- the picnic tables against the 7 fence; what, if anything, did the Occupiers do? 8 A: We started throwing rocks at their 9 cars. 10 Q: Yes. And how long did this incident 11 take place? 12 A: It wasn't too long. Five (5) -- five 13 (5) minutes. Maybe a little bit more. 14 Q: And after the police officers left 15 were the picnic tables moved back out into the Sandy 16 Parking Lot? 17 A: No, we left them there. 18 Q: Pardon me? 19 A: We left them there backed against the 20 fence there. 21 Q: And did you have any other 22 interactions with the Ontario Provincial Police officers 23 on September 5th or September 6th before the incident in 24 the evening of September 5th -- September 6th? 25 A: It was -- can I -- kind of mixed up
811 on my days. We were all around the sandy parking lot 2 when, I'd say, approximately eight (8) tactical members 3 walked up to the fence line. 4 Q: So were you on the inside or the 5 outside of the Park? 6 A: The inside. 7 Q: There's a sandy parking lot on the 8 inside of the Park as well; isn't there? 9 A: Yeah, we were on -- we were on the 10 inside. 11 Q: You were on the inside? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And in the parking area on the west 14 side of the fence line inside the Park? 15 A: Yeah, right by the turn -- turnstile. 16 Q: Yes. And what happened? 17 A: They walked up. There was nobody 18 really said anything. And this little short fellow there 19 he come over to the -- out from the back of the crowd of 20 the cops and singled -- singled Dudley right out. Told 21 him that he was going to be the first one to go. 22 Q: And did this just happen out of the 23 blue that this officer -- 24 A: Yeah. They -- 25 Q: -- came up to the fence --
821 A: They came out of -- they came out of 2 nowhere. Like, -- 3 Q: Did they -- did they say anything 4 before this police officer arrived? Were you -- did you 5 shout at the -- your group shout at the police officers? 6 A: Not that I can remember, no. 'Cause 7 we were all just standing around and they just come out 8 of -- like, they didn't drive up or anything, they walked 9 from somewhere. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And none of the other officers said 12 nothing, but just that one fellow did. 13 Q: And did he say anything else? Tell 14 us exactly what he said. 15 A: From what I remember it, he had told 16 Dudley to -- that he was going to be the first one (1) to 17 go. He was saying stuff like, welcome to Canada, trying 18 to call one (1) of us to the other side of the fence, 19 calling us on, like, for a fight. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And I believe it was Marlin Simon, he 22 picked up a handful of sand and threw it in his face. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And -- or as soon as after he done 25 that he grabbed some pepper spray, and he was trying to
831 pepper spray us. 2 Q: And what did your group do? 3 A: We just backed up and we watched 4 them, and they just took off. 5 Q: And can you describe again, you said 6 they were in tactical uniforms. What do you mean by 7 that? Can you describe what these police officers were 8 wearing? 9 A: They were like the grey jumpsuits, 10 but I think they were brown, brownish colour. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: Fast caps (phonetic), boots, kind of 13 like the tactical army pants, I guess. 14 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You said you 19 wanted to adjourn around 10:30, Mr. Millar, it's past 20 that now. I don't want to interrupt you if you're right 21 in the middle of something. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Maybe I could 23 just finish this. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just finish 25 what you're on.
841 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, I'm going to -- these 4 photos don't come out very well, but I'm going to show 5 you a photo, and could you, and I'm going to ask you if 6 you could just take a look at these three (3) photographs 7 for a moment, of the police officers in uniform. 8 A: Where's their faces? 9 Q: And that's the second photograph. 10 And that's the third photograph. 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Can Mr. Millar give us 12 some numbers on those? We don't even know these -- where 13 these come from. Are there document numbers? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If Mr. Roland would 15 give me a second, I'll explain to Mr. Roland and everyone 16 else where they came from. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: These were photographs that were 20 provided by the OPP and I have not had the opportunity to 21 send them out to my friends, but they are identified 22 right now, simply by the number. 23 This photograph that's on the screen is 24 CU-035.JPG. The second photograph is CU-034.JPG, and the 25 third photograph is CU-038.JPG. And we will eventually
851 prove that these photographs, but I simply wanted the 2 witness, if he could just -- does he -- did he recognize 3 one of these three (3) uniforms? 4 A: I recognize the first one as the grey 5 uniform, was what the majority of the police were 6 wearing. 7 Q: And on the -- this incident that you 8 just described to us, you said that, I think you said 9 they were wearing a brown uniform? 10 A: Yeah. I thought they were brownish. 11 Brown colour. I may be wrong though. 12 Q: But for the majority of the -- the 13 majority of the police officers were wearing the uniform 14 that is identified as CU-038? 15 A: Yes. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. That would 17 perhaps be a good place for a break. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 Thank you very much. We'll have a short break now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:40 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:58 a.m. 25
861 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Now, you indicated that -- before the 7 break, that you heard something about an injunction? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how did you hear about an 10 injunction? 11 A: I believe it was over the radio. 12 Q: And did you know what an injunction 13 was? 14 A: Not at the time. No. 15 Q: Did you have a discussion with 16 anybody about the injunction or what you heard on the 17 radio? 18 A: Well, what I heard on the radio was, 19 that the MNR and OPP were seeking a court injunction to 20 remove us from the Park. 21 Q: To remove you from the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you heard that on September 5th? 24 A: I believe so. 25 Q: Or it could have been September 6th?
871 A: Yeah. One of the two. 2 Q: One of the two. And the early part 3 of September 4th, 5th or 6th, was anyone hunting near the 4 Park -- in or around the Park? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And was it hunting season in 7 September 4th, 5th and 6th? 8 A: No. No. 9 Q: And after you heard about the 10 injunction, did you or others do anything in the Park? 11 A: No, not that I can remember. 12 Q: Did you take any steps -- were you -- 13 were you concerned that the Provincial Police might seek 14 to remove you from the Park? 15 A: Not myself, I wasn't worried about 16 it. 17 Q: You weren't worried about it? And 18 the -- after the incident with the police officers and 19 the picnic tables in the sandy parking lot that you told 20 us about; what did you do? 21 Can you -- what did you do? First of all, 22 excuse me, can you tell us about what time the incident 23 with the picnic tables and the police officers took 24 place? 25 A: I believe they were close to the same
881 timeframe. I knew it was -- I remember it was dark. 2 Q: But -- 3 A: So it would have been 9:30, ten 4 o'clock, maybe. 5 Q: So that the police officers -- what 6 I'm talking about is the police officers with respect to 7 the pushing the picnic tables up against the fence? 8 A: Yeah. It would -- would have been 9 about 9:30 maybe. 10 Q: About 9:30? It was dark? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And the other incident with the 13 police officers along the fence line? 14 A: Yeah, it would have been about the 15 same timeframe, I think. 16 Q: About the same timeframe? And what 17 did you do after the incident after 9:30? Did you stay 18 at the Park on the evening of September 5th, go back to 19 the Army Camp? 20 A: After the incident with the police 21 pushing the picnic tables around there I stayed at my 22 mother and father's, Number 37, that evening. 23 Q: Back to the Army? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And then what happened the next day,
891 September 6th? 2 A: The next morning my mother woke me 3 and she had told me that cops were trying to come back 4 and -- trying to come in through the Park. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I got in my car and I got down there 7 and everything was already done and gone with. The 8 fellow, Robert Isaac, was sitting down there and the 9 police came down with MNR trucks and trailers and loaded 10 up the picnic tables and had taken them somewhere. 11 Q: And the picnic tables, after the 12 incident with the police officers moving the picnic 13 tables, pushing them out of the sandy parking lot, did -- 14 were the picnic tables replaced in the parking -- sandy 15 parking lot? 16 A: No. 17 Q: No. 18 A: No. 19 Q: And we've heard evidence that they 20 were put in a circle in the sandy parking lot and that 21 circle was removed the next morning. 22 A: I -- I believe so. But after that 23 morning incident I don't think there was any more picnic 24 tables out there. 25 Q: Perhaps I'm -- my question is not as
901 clear as it could be. The picnic tables were moved 2 against the fence by the police officers on the evening 3 of September 5th? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And then in the morning of September 6 6th, were there picnic tables in the sandy parking lot, 7 that you were aware of? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So you had not seen the picnic tables 10 being put back in the sandy parking lot on the evening of 11 September 5th, in a circle? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So, when you arrived on the morning, 14 your mother woke you on the morning of September 6th and 15 told you that police officers were trying to get into the 16 Park, and you went down to the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there were no police officers 19 along the fence line by the Park? 20 A: No. No. There was none down there. 21 Q: And who was down there? 22 A: I remember talking to Robert Isaac 23 and JT, I believe. 24 Q: And by JT you mean James Thomas 25 Cousins?
911 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so after that, what did you do? 3 A: Just hung out, I guess. We didn't do 4 nothing, just kind of sat around. 5 Q: And were you most of the day or -- in 6 the Park on September 6th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when were you supposed to go back 9 to school? 10 A: I believe it was the next day. 11 Q: On the 7th? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And the -- on September 6, 14 were you back in the built-up area of the Army Camp? 15 A: Here and there. 16 Q: Just, can you sort of tell us what 17 you did that day? 18 A: I -- I really can't remember. I know 19 I was back and forth from the barracks, running errands, 20 grabbing firewood, stuff like that. 21 Q: And at some point did you gather 22 rocks and sticks and place them along the fence line? 23 A: I might have. 24 Q: And did you observe -- you told us 25 earlier that there was a police officer -- police car
921 parked at Number 1 on Exhibit 125 at the curb, on 2 September the 5th. Did that police car stop people, or 3 was it simply there and observing what was going on? 4 A: It would stop cars and then I don't 5 know what they told them. They had talked to them 6 briefly and some cars turned around, like, depending on 7 which way they came from. 8 Q: At the -- this was on September the 9 5th, the car that's parked at Number 1? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And then on September 6, was 12 that police car still there on September 6 during the day 13 when you were in the Park? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: And did you observe any other police 16 cars on Army Camp Road? 17 A: There was a checkpoint at Army Camp 18 Road and Highway 21. 19 Q: Yes? And when did that checkpoint go 20 into place? 21 A: Fifth, I believe. 22 Q: On the 5th? 23 A: I think so, yeah. 24 Q: And any other checkpoints? 25 A: No, not that I can remember.
931 Q: Did you observe a checkpoint, at any 2 time, on Army Camp Road south of the intersection of Army 3 Camp Road and Matheson Drive, by the first trailer Park? 4 A: I think there was cruisers parked 5 there, I'm not too sure if it was a checkpoint or not. 6 Q: Oh, you saw cruisers parked there but 7 you don't know what they were doing? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And did you pass through the 10 checkpoint at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road at any time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And can you tell us, was the police 13 boat around on September 6th? 14 A: I don't remember it sitting there. 15 Q: Okay. And how many people were in 16 the Park during the day or the afternoon at any given 17 time, on September 6? 18 A: Between twenty (20), twenty (20) and 19 forty (40), here and there, just coming and going all the 20 time. 21 Q: People would come and go and -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And did that include men, women and 24 children? 25 A: Yes.
941 Q: Were your sisters there on September 2 6 as well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And later in the afternoon and the 5 early evening of September 6, were you aware of any 6 change with respect to the police presence? 7 A: I had noticed, myself, that there had 8 -- there was a lot more police in the tactical gear, the 9 grey suit that you had up on the screen. 10 Q: And where did you observe these 11 police officers, Mr. Cottrelle? 12 A: The checkpoint along Highway 21 and 13 Army Camp Road and down by the trailer Park, I guess. 14 Q: You saw more police officers there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes? How many police officers can 17 you recall, were on Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 18 A: Twelve (12). 19 Q: Twelve (12)? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And at the -- by the trailer Park 22 south of Matheson Drive? 23 A: Six (6) to ten (10), maybe. 24 Q: And what were the police officers 25 doing?
951 A: For the most part just standing 2 around, I guess. 3 Q: And do you know the name of the 4 trailer park that's just south of Matheson Drive? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: And did you observe anything else 7 with -- 8 A: Myself, no. Somebody went out the 9 forest, though, and they said that they had seen the 10 parking lot here and the arena was filled with cruisers. 11 Q: Somebody reported that back to you? 12 A: Yes. And they -- said they also seen 13 two (2) APCs or something at the Force Detachment. 14 Q: APCs? And what do you mean by APC? 15 A: Well, they're a -- I guess they're a 16 military -- they must carry soldiers and stuff around. 17 Q: And you're referring to APC as an 18 Armoured Personnel Carrier? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And who told you about this, do you 21 recall? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: And when did you learn about the 24 police officers in Forest and the APCs? What time of 25 day?
961 A: It was early evening. 2 Q: Early evening? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you and the group discuss 5 this information? 6 A: Not that I can remember. 7 Q: Okay. And what did you do in the 8 early evening of September 6? You personally? 9 A: I was mostly loading up around the 10 fires with the firewood. We had three (3) fires going. 11 Q: And can you tell us where the fires 12 were? 13 A: One (1) right at the turnstile there. 14 Q: One (1) at the turnstile in the Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: We had one (1) at the turnstile 18 there, the main entrance to the Park, and one (1) at 19 Matheson Drive. 20 Q: And was there a fire on the north end 21 of the -- the Park near the beach? 22 A: I can't remember, I don't think so. 23 Q: And why were the fires built at these 24 three (3) locations? 25 A: Just to keep the area lit, kind of --
971 kind of our own checkpoints, I guess. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: Kind of our own checkpoints. 4 Q: Yes. And what were you concerned 5 about that you needed checkpoints, if anything? 6 A: Just to keep people out of the park. 7 Q: Okay. And in the early evening of 8 August -- September the 6th, did you go by the gatehouse 9 up near the entrance or the kiosk, the brown building? 10 A: I might have, yeah. 11 Q: Did you go up on the roof? 12 A: No, not that I can remember. 13 Q: Do you recall seeing anyone on the 14 roof? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you go inside the gatehouse? 17 A: I don't know. Through -- probably 18 throughout the week, yeah, I might have went in there. 19 Q: But do you recall going in there? 20 A: Not that day though, I don't 21 remember. 22 Q: Okay. And in the early evening of 23 September the 6th, did you observe at any time, Mr. 24 Gerald George? 25 A: Yes, it was sort of the evening.
981 Q: And can you tell us what you 2 observed? 3 A: Myself, along with Stewart George, 4 and I can't remember if Dale George was there or not. 5 Q: And by Dale George you mean Dale 6 Plain? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: We were standing right in this area 10 here. 11 Q: And you're pointing to the area on 12 Exhibit 125, just to -- could you mark on that map, an X 13 and a number 2? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And you've marked on Exhibit 125, the 18 number 2, it's -- it's a space to the east side of East 19 Army Camp Road, and just south of -- there's a depiction 20 of a tree that is on the east side near the -- just to 21 the south of the words embankment on Exhibit P-125, is 22 that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so you were at -- standing on the 25 road, or at the side of the road with Stewart George,
991 and, you believe, Dale Plain? 2 A: I -- I think so, I'm not too sure. 3 Q: And what were you doing there? 4 A: We were just standing around, like we 5 might have came up from the main entrance fire, back 6 towards -- back towards the turnstile there. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And Gerald George had pulled up and 9 he rolled down his window and he had asked us what was 10 going on, just kind of like, what's going on guys? 11 Stewart, he looked at him and he said, oh, nothing much 12 and he walked over and he asked him why he wrote the 13 letter in the Forrest Standard about Stoney Point. 14 Q: And the letter that -- had you seen 15 the letter in the Forrest Standard? 16 A: Yes. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And perhaps we could 18 show the witness, Mr. Registrar, Exhibit 73? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Is that the letter that you read? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So, Mr. Stewart George asked him
1001 about why he wrote the letter, then what, if anything, 2 did Mr. Gerald George say? 3 A: I can't remember if he tried to -- 4 tried to deny it a little bit. 5 Q: But can you remember what he said? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 8 A: Stewart punched him inside the head. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And Gerald pulled up approximately 11 ten (10), fifteen (15) feet, and told Stewart that he was 12 a marked man. 13 Q: And so Mr. Gerald George moved his 14 car. Did he stop in the area of where you put the X2, 15 the 2? 16 A: Yeah, it was in the area. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: He pulled ahead towards Highway 21, 19 about ten (10), fifteen (15) feet. 20 Q: So he went south on Army Camp Road,-- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- about ten (10) or fifteen (15) 23 feet? Then he stopped and what did he do? Lean out the 24 window, open the -- 25 A: Yeah, kind of looked back, leaned out
1011 the window. 2 Q: And what, if anything, did Stewart 3 George do? 4 A: That's when he threw -- threw a rock 5 and it hit right behind the driver's door. 6 Q: And on the -- the back part of the 7 car? 8 A: It was, yeah, it was just, like, 9 directly right behind the driver's door. 10 Q: Right behind the driver's door? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And did you observe -- did you 13 see the rock hit the car? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you see what, if anything, it 16 did to the car? 17 A: A small dent. 18 Q: Dent? Could -- you could see the 19 dent from where you were standing? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Then what happened? 22 A: Then he took off. He took off south 23 and I never -- never watched where he went. 24 Q: Okay. And were there other people -- 25 at this time, what did you then do?
1021 A: I -- we went back to the turnstile, I 2 believe. 3 Q: And were there -- did you observe 4 other members of your group in the sandy parking lot at 5 this time? 6 A: I can't remember. 7 Q: And were you carrying a -- anything 8 in your hand? 9 A: A baseball bat. 10 Q: And why did you have a baseball bat? 11 A: For my own protection. 12 Q: And why did you need a baseball bat 13 for your own protection? 14 A: Well I just start carrying one that 15 day after -- after all the police build-up. 16 Q: And did anyone else have anything in 17 their hand? 18 A: Not that I can remember. 19 Q: And, what -- did -- were there other 20 people in the sandy parking lot as you walked back? 21 A: I think so. I can't really remember. 22 Q: You can't remember? And after this 23 incident with Mr. Gerald George, what did you do? You 24 went back to the -- inside the -- were you inside or 25 outside the Park?
1031 A: I was outside the Park. I went back 2 in and I went up to the barracks for something, and 3 that's when I noticed Gerald's car at the first campsite, 4 in the driveway there. 5 Q: The trailer Park? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yes? And did you observe -- did you 8 see anything? 9 A: I just seen his car, well, when you 10 pull into the parking lot, there's -- it's gated, and it 11 has two (2) pillars on each side, brick pillars, and I -- 12 I just seen his car parked there. I didn't see nobody 13 around it. 14 Q: Okay. And so how long were you in 15 the -- the barracks area of the Army Camp? 16 A: Not very long, I don't think. 17 Q: And so during the evening, what were 18 you doing? 19 A: Mostly just loading up the fires and 20 hanging out around the Park store, that was the main 21 campsite. 22 Q: And how often did you go back and 23 forth to the -- the built-up area? 24 A: Every couple of hours, I guess. 25 Q: And was there a decision that you're
1041 aware of, at any point, that women and children would 2 leave the Park? 3 A: No, I don't think so. 4 Q: Did your sisters leave the Park 5 sometime that evening? 6 A: I think they were at the maintenance 7 shed, -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: -- from what I remember. 10 Q: And were they going to go to school 11 the next day? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: And so, when you were going back and 14 forth between the Park and the Army Camp, were you doing 15 that because you had been asked to do that by someone? 16 A: I don't -- I don't remember -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- to tell you the truth, yeah. 19 Q: So, did you observe Mr. Cecil Bernard 20 George at the Park at any time during the evening of 21 September 6th? 22 A: It was later in the evening. 23 Q: Okay. And between -- later in the 24 evening just before the confrontation? 25 A: A little bit before that. I think it
1051 was -- it wasn't quite dark yet, but it was getting 2 pretty close to it. 3 Q: And so tell us what happened. What 4 do you recall? 5 A: From what I remember, he came up -- 6 came up from the beach -- 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: -- him and Jeremiah George. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And he had a scanner. I think he 11 said that he tried to come up East Parkway Drive, but was 12 stopped at the checkpoint somewhere down the road there. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: So he parked his truck and walked up 15 towards -- from the beach. 16 Q: And was that the first time you had 17 seen him that evening? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yes? Then what happened? 20 A: He was just kind of hanging out. We 21 were listening to the scanner. I just pretty much went 22 back to just loading up the fires again. 23 Q: And then what -- when were you first 24 aware of the police officers coming down to the sandy 25 parking lot?
1061 A: It was a little bit -- time before 2 the -- little bit before that. I'd given a lady a ride 3 up to the barracks. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I dropped -- dropped her off and I 6 come back down to the Park and I pulled up to the 7 turnstile there and I could see them walking down the 8 road. 9 Q: So that after Cecil Bernard George 10 arrived in the Park, you gave someone a ride up to the 11 barracks? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then returned, and -- 14 A: Returned to the Park, yeah. 15 Q: -- to the Park and when you returned 16 to the Park, you observed police officers coming down 17 East Parkway Drive? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And where were the Occupiers when you 20 arrived back at the Park? Were they inside the Park or 21 outside the Park? 22 A: Inside the Park. 23 Q: And where were they? 24 A: Lined up along the fence. 25 Q: And the -- where were the police
1071 officers when you first observed them on East Parkway 2 Drive? 3 A: It would have been right -- right in 4 here; this area here. 5 Q: So that the police officers were at 6 the end of -- almost at the end of East Parkway Drive 7 where it starts to curve -- this curve starts. Is that 8 correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And perhaps you could just put an X 11 and a Number 3 where the police officers were when you 12 first observed them? And can you tell us what you 13 observed? 14 A: They were hitting their shields with 15 their batons. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And they were doing a real heavy 18 march. 19 Q: What do you -- 20 A: Like a real stomp. 21 Q: But they -- when you say, "A real 22 heavy march," can you describe that for us, Mr. 23 Cottrelle? 24 A: They were -- they were all in sync 25 and -- with their march, though, when they would step
1081 forward, it was -- they were stepping down heavy so we 2 could hear it. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: So we kind of heard the march -- 5 march of their boots and then, plus, on top of that, you 6 could hear the -- them hitting their shields with their 7 batons. 8 Q: And how were the -- the police 9 officers dressed? 10 A: Full riot gear. 11 Q: And when you say, "Full riot gear," 12 what do you mean by that? 13 A: They had these big gloves, reminded 14 me of hockey gloves, shin pads, full face shields and 15 black helmets on that come down to their shoulders. They 16 also had the shields and telescopic batons. 17 Q: And how do you know that they were 18 telescopic batons? 19 A: When they got up closer a few of them 20 never had them and when they pulled them out you could -- 21 they made a motion down and you could see -- you could 22 see the baton coming out. 23 Q: It would come out? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: It came out? So, the police officers
1091 were at the Point Number 3 on the East Parkway Drive when 2 you arrived. What were the Occupiers doing? 3 A: They were standing there at the fence 4 line taking it all in, I guess. 5 Q: Were there any lights on? 6 Spotlights? 7 A: I can't remember if there was any 8 spotlights or anything. 9 Q: And how did -- what was the lighting 10 like when you arrived back? 11 A: It was fairly dark. 12 Q: And how could you see the police 13 officers? 14 A: From the -- the reflection off the 15 fire from the sandy parking lot. 16 Q: The fire that was on the inside of 17 the park side of the turnstile? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I take it that fire was on the inside 20 of the Park? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: And can you recall, was it a full 23 moon, or what was the moon like that night? 24 A: I don't even remember. It was -- it 25 was dark.
1101 Q: And so then what happened? 2 A: I jumped out of the car there, and 3 had an old baseball bat in the back, I went up to the 4 fence line with everybody else, and the Police, I believe 5 they changed their position a couple of times, kind of 6 like an advance forward, somebody was shouting commands, 7 saying, advance forward, move left, just kind of getting 8 in -- getting in line, and stuff. 9 And I think that's when Bernard went out 10 there. 11 Q: And did -- did anyone say anything to 12 you when you arrived at the fence line about the Police? 13 A: Just -- no, I can't remember. 14 Q: So, Cecil Bernard George, what did 15 Cecil Bernard George do? 16 A: He walked out the -- the turnstile 17 and started walking out towards the line of Police, and 18 he was telling them that they had to go, that the Police 19 had to leave, and he was also telling them that they'd 20 never remove the Aboriginal people from the lands, stuff 21 along that lines. 22 Q: Well, can you tell us -- 23 A: That's his -- that's all I can 24 remember him saying. 25 Q: Okay.
1111 A: Okay. 2 Q: Thanks. And what, if anything, do 3 you recall Cecil Bernard George having in his hand? 4 A: His scanner maybe. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Maybe a small stick, club or 7 something, I don't know. 8 Q: Well, Cecil Bernard George has 9 testified that he had a steel pipe in his hand, do you 10 recall that? 11 A: I -- no, I don't. 12 Q: Do you recall something in his hand? 13 A: I knew -- I knew he had something, I 14 don't know if it was a pipe or a stick or something -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- but I know he had something. 17 Q: And then what happened? How -- why 18 was -- Cecil Bernard George went out into the Sandy 19 parking lot from the turnstile, he was saying things to 20 the Police Officers, what happened? 21 A: There was an order given, I'm not too 22 sure what -- what the Officer had said, but there was a 23 group on the -- it would have been the right, the right 24 side of the formation. 25 Q: And at this point, where was the
1121 formation? 2 A: It was right along -- just on the 3 inside of the paved road, right in here. 4 Q: The -- so the officers were lined up 5 across the roadway, just to the -- 6 A: North side. 7 Q: -- east -- northeast side of where 8 you've got Item number 1? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And so the Officers were lined up 11 there, and how many Officers were there, do you recall? 12 A: Forty (40), maybe thirty (30), forty 13 (40). 14 Q: So, what happened? 15 A: The right side of that formation of 16 the Police -- Police line, they -- they came out and they 17 rushed Bernard. 18 Q: And when you say the right side of 19 the formation, that would be the -- the Officers on the 20 eastern part of the line? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes. And they -- so they rushed 23 Bernard, Cecil Bernard George -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- then what happened?
1131 A: They rushed out, hitting him with 2 their shields, knocked him down and they just started 3 beating on him. 4 Q: And how many Police Officers were 5 involved? 6 A: Eight (8). 7 Q: And where were the other occupiers at 8 this point? 9 A: We were still on the fence line. 10 Q: And what, if anything, did the -- you 11 do? 12 A: Myself, we were just, kind of, 13 looking around, kind of taking it in for a second. And I 14 believe it was his sister that was beside me and she was 15 screaming around, somebody's got to do something. 16 Somebody's got to get out there. 17 Q: And what was -- and that was Gina -- 18 Gina George or Gina Johnson? 19 A: Johnson. 20 Q: Yes. And what was happening -- what 21 was Cecil Bernard George at this point? 22 A: He was probably in -- maybe in this 23 area here. 24 Q: And was that the area where he was 25 when he was grabbed by the police officers?
1141 A: Yes. I believe so. 2 Q: And could you mark an "X" where you 3 observed Cecil Bernard George being taken by the police 4 officers and put beside it a number 4? 5 A: (INDICATING) 6 Q: And did you see Cecil Bernard George 7 hit at the police officers? 8 A: No, I don't think he had the chance 9 to. 10 Q: And so the group of police officers 11 that had Cecil Bernard George at X4 they grabbed him at 12 that, what did they do with him? 13 A: They circled around him and they were 14 kicking him and, you know, with their batons. 15 Q: Yes. And then what happened with -- 16 A: They just kept beating on him and 17 couple of guys -- well, I don't know how many guys went 18 across, including myself, and I believe we -- that's when 19 we had our first fight with the cops. 20 Q: And the -- where were the other -- 21 when you went across the fence line how many of your 22 group went across the fence line with you; do you 23 remember? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: And do you recall how many people
1151 were along the fence line? 2 A: Thirteen (13), fourteen (14) maybe. 3 Q: And do you recall who was there? 4 A: Somewhat. 5 Q: Okay. And was -- can you tell us who 6 was there from your recollection? 7 A: Myself, my father, Gina Johnston, 8 Kevin Simon, Buck Doxtator, Dutchie French, Darlene 9 Fisher. 10 Q: David George? 11 A: Dave George. Al George -- 12 Q: Stewart George? 13 A: Yeah, Stewart. Elwood George. 14 Q: Wesley? 15 A: Wes, Dale -- Dale George Plain. 16 Q: And JT Cousins, was he along the 17 fence line? 18 A: Yes, I believe so. 19 Q: And Robert Isaac? 20 A: Yeah, Robert Isaac. 21 Q: And Wayne Pine? 22 A: I think so. Yeah. 23 Q: Anyone else that you can recall 24 A: No. I can't remember. 25 Q: Was Russ Jewel along the fence line?
1161 A: Yeah. 2 Q: You know Russ Jewel? 3 A: Yeah. I know Russ Jewel. He wasn't 4 down there. 5 Q: Pardon me. 6 A: He wasn't down there. 7 Q: He was not down there? What about 8 Les Jewel; do you know Les Jewel? 9 A: Yeah. He wasn't down there either. 10 Q: He was not down there? Sam Isaac; do 11 you know Sam Isaac? 12 A: Yeah. He -- he wasn't down there. 13 Q: He was not down there? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Ed Isaac? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Al George, I think you said, was down 18 there? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Dutch French was down there? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Charles Chuckie George, do you know 23 him? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Was he there?
1171 A: Yes. 2 Q: Gabriel Doxtator? 3 A: I can't remember. I think he was 4 there. 5 Q: You think he was there? 6 A: Yeah, I think so. 7 Q: And anyone -- and I think you said 8 that Isaac Buck Doxtator was there? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And can you recall anyone else at 11 this point? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So, you went across the fence; what 14 did you do? 15 A: Well, by that time there -- they'd 16 dragged Slippery back aways, just a bit. 17 Q: And by "Slippery", you're referring 18 to Cecil Bernard George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: They'd dragged him back behind the 22 initial line of police officers. And we went across and 23 we were met by a bunch. Like they had advanced too -- 24 Q: The police officers advanced; their 25 line advanced?
1181 A: Yes. And everybody was just, kind of 2 spread out. I had -- I had gotten one (1) hit in with my 3 bat. It busted and I went back across to find something 4 else. I couldn't really find anything, just big rocks, 5 and we just started tossing them. 6 Q: And can you tell us what your bat was 7 like? 8 A: It was kind of an older -- it was 9 weather -- weather beaten, the bat was kind of dry and 10 starting -- starting to chip off and stuff. 11 Q: And where did it break? 12 A: Right above my hands, I guess. 13 Q: So, when you're holding and you swung 14 it and it broke -- snapped off by your hands? 15 A: Yes, on the handle. 16 Q: And were you hit? 17 A: I believe I was hit on the leg. 18 Q: And so, you went back into the Park, 19 you were throwing some rocks? 20 A: Yeah. I got -- tried to get a hold 21 of as much rocks as I can and I started tossing them. 22 Q: And then what happened? 23 A: We come back across -- 24 Q: When you say "we came back across"? 25 A: Everybody that went. I can't
1191 remember who all went out but everybody kind of 2 regrouped. 3 Q: Back behind the fence? 4 A: Being the occupiers. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And the police, I believe they formed 7 their lineup and they were still beating on Bernard. 8 Q: And how do you know they were still 9 beating on Cecil Bernard George? 10 A: You could see them, I could see them, 11 they were not too far away. 12 Q: And were they still -- were the 13 police officers and Cecil Bernard George still in the 14 sandy parking lot or on the paved road? 15 A: They moved back a little bit. They 16 were probably in here, in this area. 17 Q: So they're in an area -- 18 A: Kind of off on the shoulder. 19 Q: -- on the shoulder between -- I take 20 it the first parking lot -- the first driveway that's on 21 Exhibit P-125 is 1102; is that correct? And -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- between -- somewhere halfway 24 between the entrance to the -- the parking -- the 25 driveway that's labelled 1102 and the edge of the road?
1201 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Yes? 3 A: And that's when I heard somebody say, 4 Get that bus over there, Get that bus out there. 5 Q: Okay. Perhaps you could mark on 6 Exhibit P-125 with an X where Cecil Bernard George was at 7 the point when someone yelled, Get the bus. 8 A: (INDICATING). 9 Q: And if you could put a 5 beside. 10 Thank you. 11 A: (INDICATING). 12 Q: And were the -- were the police 13 officers that were around near Cecil Bernard George when 14 he was at item 5, were they -- how were they dressed? 15 A: They all had the same gear on, the 16 riot -- full riot gear. 17 Q: And did they have -- did they have 18 shields? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So, Cecil Bernard George is at the 21 point where you've marked number 5. Someone said, Get 22 the bus. What did you do? 23 A: I ran over to the bus and I had 24 jumped in. It was -- it was already running. And I was 25 just getting ready to put it in gear when Leland George
1211 came to the door and wanted to go for a ride. I told him 2 just to get in, get in the back. 3 Q: And when you -- the bus was located 4 where? 5 A: I think just north of the gate. 6 Q: North of the gate on the inside of 7 the sandy parking lot? 8 A: Yeah. Somewhere in there. 9 Q: And was it facing towards the sandy 10 parking lot? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And were there cars parked facing the 13 sandy parking lot on the outside of the -- on the outside 14 of the fence line? 15 A: I believe maybe Dave's car. I know 16 my car was right in the area too. 17 Q: But were any -- did any of these cars 18 have their lights on? 19 A: I can't remember. 20 Q: And did the bus have its lights on 21 when -- when you jumped into it? 22 A: I don't know. I don't think so. 23 Q: And so, Leland George asked if he 24 could come on the bus. And was -- did Leland George have 25 anything with him?
1221 A: Just his dog. 2 Q: And what was his dog like? 3 A: He was a black pitbull. 4 Q: Black pitbull. And then what 5 happened? 6 A: He jumped on with his dog, he got in 7 the back, and I drove the bus towards the gate at the 8 turnstile there, crashed through the gate and -- oh, I 9 hit the dumpster first. There was dumpster that was 10 blocked off. I hit the dumpster and pushed that through 11 the gate. 12 And I remember steering to the right, I 13 just pushed that dumpster off to the right a little bit 14 and then come back and pointed towards East Parkway 15 Drive. 16 Q: Okay. And the dumpster had been 17 placed on the inside of the -- of the gate to block the 18 gate? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that's the gate that's on Exhibit 21 P-125 marked as "Gate" on the south of -- on the south 22 part of the fence line just before it hits the 23 embankment? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, now, when you got to the gate,
1231 did anyone -- when you got -- when you first went on the 2 bus, there was yourself, then Leland George came on the 3 bus. Did anybody else get on the bus? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did Robert Isaac get on the bus? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did -- when you stopped at the -- 8 when you stopped at the gate to start pushing the 9 dumpster, did anyone get on the bus? 10 A: No. 11 Q: At any time during the confrontation 12 when the bus was -- from the time you got on the bus, it 13 went out and came back, was there anyone else on the bus 14 besides you and Leland? 15 A: No. 16 Q: So, you went through the gate, you 17 pushed the dumpster out of the way, then what happened? 18 A: I drove towards East Parkway Drive. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: Where the cops were lined up and I 21 was trying to keep an eye out to see if I could see where 22 Bernard was. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: I drove through the police line and I 25 drove up almost to the driveway here.
1241 Q: And that's a driveway, it's 2 identified as Number 6842 on Exhibit P-125? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you say you drove up to the 5 driveway. Then what happened? 6 A: I was looking around and they had a 7 couple of OPP vans. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: Because that's where, kind of the 10 direction that they were dragging Bernard, so I kind of 11 figured that that's where they would have him. I got up 12 to the van, so -- and didn't see anything around, just 13 cops in the ditches and bushes and stuff and kind had a 14 quick look around and tried to get back into the Park 15 after that. 16 Q: So, the farthest west you went was 17 near the point by the driveway that's labelled 6842? 18 A: Yeah, it was just north, just on the 19 side of it. 20 Q: Can you -- 21 A: Almost to it. 22 Q: Okay, can you mark the westerly point 23 where the -- you -- you went with the bus? Just where 24 you stopped and is that to be the front of the bus or the 25 back of the bus?
1251 A: It'd be the front of the bus. 2 Q: And perhaps you could mark beside 3 that a Number 6, please on Exhibit P-125. 4 A: (INDICATING) 5 Q: So -- and as you were driving out 6 from the parking lot, you drove towards the police 7 officers who were -- the police officers were lined up. 8 Where were the police officers at this 9 point when you were driving out? 10 A: North of the one (1), I guess. 11 Q: North of Number 1? 12 A: Yeah, they were -- they were pretty 13 much in the same -- same area. 14 Q: And were they lined up in a line 15 across the sandy parking lot running north or were they 16 just in a group? 17 A: They were lined up. 18 Q: And so they were lined up in a line 19 running north from one (1) towards five (5) or towards 20 the entrance to 1102? 21 A: Probably from five (5) down to the 22 sand pile -- where the sand pile's marked. 23 Q: Okay. And was that sand pile there 24 that evening? 25 A: I don't think so, no.
1261 Q: And so you drove -- and did the 2 police officers get out of the way? 3 A: They went down first and braced up. 4 Q: When you say, "They went down and 5 braced up," what do you mean by that? 6 A: To me, like -- like, they were going 7 to stop the bus or something and then at the last second 8 they jumped out of the way. 9 Q: And this was on the sandy parking 10 lot? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And then as you went west onto 13 the pavement, you observed -- did you observe police 14 officers? 15 A: Yeah, they were all lined up in the 16 ditch, laying on their bellies and where it says the 17 grass shoulder there, they were all throughout those 18 bushes there. 19 Q: On the north side? Did you observe 20 any on the south side? 21 A: Both sides of the bus. 22 Q: On both sides? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did you -- at this point as you 25 were coming out onto the pavement, did you see Cecil
1271 Bernard George? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P- 4 125 where the vans were parked? 5 A: Right in there. 6 Q: So you're pointing to an area just on 7 the shoulder north of where the bus was, which is marked 8 as Number 6? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were they still there when you 11 arrived? 12 A: The vans? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yeah, they were still there. 15 Q: And did you see Cecil Bernard George? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you see a car come out of the 18 Park that evening? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And when did you learn that a parked 21 car had come out of the Park? 22 A: Not until the next day. 23 Q: And the -- so, you reached the point 24 just close to the entrance to -- that's marked 6842, you 25 stopped the bus.
1281 On the way, did you hit any police 2 officers? 3 A: No, not that I can remember. 4 Q: And what did you do? 5 A: I had stopped, and I just looked 6 around the vans. And then I tried to put the bus in 7 reverse. It wouldn't go in at first. It took me quite a 8 while and finally, like, clicked in. Then I started to 9 back up, back in towards the Park. 10 Q: And then what happened, if anything? 11 A: And then I just -- I heard the one 12 window shatter and that's when I heard all the gunfire. 13 Q: And which window shattered? 14 A: Where everybody gets in, the -- the 15 main entrance, I guess. 16 Q: The -- the window in the door, that-- 17 A: That would be on the sliding door. 18 Q: Yes? And did you see anyone outside 19 the bus by that window? 20 A: I seen the one police officer. I 21 believe he had a -- I'm pretty sure it was a handgun. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: And I kind of looked up around and 24 that's all I seen was just cops, a bunch of guns. And 25 when all the firing was going, I felt my back, felt that
1291 burn on my back and then I kinda' -- I got down and, 2 close to the floor, and where I would still be able to 3 drive, and I proceeded to back up into the Park. 4 Q: And at some point, did your father 5 come and assist you getting back into the Park? 6 A: Yeah, that was later on. I had 7 backed up into the dumpster, I had pushed out -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: -- earlier. And he yelled out to -- 10 for the guys to push the dumpster and move it. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And they pushed the dumpster out of 13 the way and I looked back up and he was in front of the 14 bus, and guided me back. And there was police officers 15 all around him. Like, he could have reached out and 16 touched them on the shoulder, how close they were. 17 And they were all just looking at their 18 guns, like, looking down, checking their guns out, and 19 it's like they couldn't even see them or something, 20 right? 21 So... guided me back into -- back into the 22 Park and I jumped out and I had a kind of look around to 23 see where everybody was. 24 And I seen a couple guys carrying Buck 25 Doxtator, he was limping, he couldn't really walk. He
1301 must got tagged on a leg quite a few times. So I start 2 looking around again, and I was looking for my father, 3 and I found him at the -- at the main gate there. 4 Q: Yes? And did you -- did you see 5 Dudley George at or about this time? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And did you see Dudley George when 8 you were out in the bus driving out to the sandy parking 9 lot? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And did you see Dudley George being 12 carried back into the Park? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And was it -- when you first went out 15 into the -- when you went back in to the -- got back in 16 to the Park, where were the police officers? 17 A: They were cut and scattered around 18 the -- the parking lot, the sandy parking lot. 19 Q: And on the west side or the east side 20 or the middle? 21 A: A little bit everywhere, I guess, 22 from what I've seen. 23 Q: And did they start leaving at some 24 point? 25 A: I can't really remember.
1311 Q: Can't remember? 2 A: I was more -- more onto the Park 3 side. 4 Q: You were -- 5 A: I was trying to get my dad to come 6 back across. 7 Q: Okay. And so you went up to the 8 fence, you saw your father, and you were trying to get 9 him to come back? 10 A: Yeah. He was -- he was pretty much 11 surrounded by cops, maybe six (6) or seven (7). 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: And he was just kind of batting them 14 out of the way with, I believe he had a street sign. 15 Q: Yes? And he was holding the street 16 sign? 17 A: Yeah, he was hit -- hitting them on 18 top of the head and stuff. And knocking them back and I 19 told him to -- I said, well, come on, let's get out of 20 here. They're shooting at us and stuff. 21 So he come back across and now we're 22 walking towards the Park Store and he noticed when he 23 said my back was all wet and my shirt and stuff was 24 drenched. And lifted up my back, said I'll take you to 25 the hospital.
1321 Q: And before we get there, the -- when 2 you went out into the Sandy Parking Lot, how fast were 3 you driving? 4 A: I wasn't even in second gear, I 5 believe. Not very fast at all. 6 Q: When you say "not very fast"; can you 7 -- where -- 8 A: Ten (10) clicks. Ten (10) kilometres 9 an hour, maybe. I don't know. 10 Q: "You don't know"? And when you drove 11 back into the -- when you went into reverse and went back 12 into the Park how fast were you going? 13 A: I was even slower. 14 Q: "Slower"? Excuse me for a moment, 15 Commissioner. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Could I see Exhibit p-24 please? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And on the screen, Mr. Cottrelle, 24 I've put up a photograph numbered 20 -- identified as Mag 25 22 from Exhibit P-24; is that -- do you recognize that
1331 school bus that's in that picture? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Is that the school bus that you were 4 driving? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you told us that the entrance 7 door -- the glass broke; can you tell us were there any 8 other -- do you recall any other windows being broken? 9 A: The one right behind it, I believe, 10 busted too and -- 11 Q: When you say "right behind it"; right 12 on the passenger side? 13 A: Yeah. Right behind the main entrance 14 door. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And I believe the very back window 17 was busted too. 18 Q: And was there a window broken by 19 where the driver sat? 20 A: I can't remember if there was or not. 21 22 Q: And so when you were on the bus when 23 you went out into the Park and when you came back into 24 the Park; did you have a firearm? 25 A: No.
1341 Q: Did you observe whether Leland -- did 2 Leland George have a firearm? 3 A: There was absolutely no firearms in 4 the Park. 5 Q: When you say "there was absolutely no 6 firearms in the Park" on -- why do you say that? 7 A: Because it was a peaceful occupation. 8 9 Q: And -- and so what does that mean, to 10 you? 11 A: To me, it means that we knew that we 12 were right what we were doing by reclaiming the Park out 13 by the burial grounds and there was no need for any kind 14 of violence whatsoever. 15 There was to be no firearms. Nobody was 16 to be drinking, anything like that. 17 Q: And the -- did you observe any 18 firearms in the hands of the occupiers on September 6th? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And on the evening of -- during the 21 confrontation? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And after the -- after the 24 confrontation you went to the hospital? 25 A: Yes.
1351 Q: And did -- but did you observe any 2 before you went to the hospital? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now, you told us that when you got 5 off the bus you looked around for your father, and you 6 could feel the back of your shirt was wet, is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes. Yes. 9 Q: And did you take your shirt off? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And you got your -- you went to the 12 gate and you saw your father, you -- you called him back 13 in, I take it he came back in? 14 A: Yes, and we walked towards the Park 15 store. 16 Q: And then what did you do? 17 A: He'd lifted up his shirt and said, I 18 was shot. And we jumped in the car and went through the 19 front gate. 20 Q: Yes. And -- whose car? 21 A: His. 22 Q: His car? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when you got to the front gate 25 what happened?
1361 A: We were sitting there and Dave phoned 2 the ambulance, there was -- 3 Q: When you say -- 4 A: -- my father, my mother, Tina George, 5 and I can't remember who else was there. I was just 6 sitting in the car and we could see the ambulance coming 7 down the highway and it went as far as Highway 21 and 8 Army Camp Road. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And it stopped there. My father was 11 yelling at the ambulance attendant, come and pick me up. 12 Q: And the -- you saw an ambulance 13 coming down the road, Highway 21 from the west or the 14 east? 15 A: From the Forrest way -- 16 Q: From Forrest? 17 A: -- that'd be west. 18 Q: And did you believe this ambulance 19 was in response to the call -- your father made the call 20 for the ambulance? 21 A: I'm not too sure who made the call. 22 Q: Okay. And it stopped at the 23 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road was on the 24 north side or the south side of Highway 21 -- 21? 25 A: It was right on 21.
1371 Q: Right on 21? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: But on the north side of 21? 4 A: North side I guess, yeah. 5 Q: And then what happened? 6 A: He was yelling at them for a while 7 and my mother and Tina had decided to take me out there. 8 Q: And so your mother and Tina put you 9 in a -- 10 A: No, I was already in the car and Tina 11 jumped in the backseat and my mother was driving. 12 Q: And this was your father's car? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Was it the -- 15 A: Trans Am, yes. 16 Q: -- Trans Am, yes. Then what 17 happened? 18 A: We went out the gate and we pulled up 19 at -- at the intersection out there, and -- 20 Q: And the -- the intersection is the 21 intersection of -- 22 A: 21 and Army Camp Road. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: We stopped and just out of nowhere 25 there's all these cops come flying out the ditch, they
1381 had rifles, telling us to put our hands up and kept 2 circling the car and my mother was screaming at them, 3 don't shoot. She was screaming at them about something. 4 And they cleared the car, like, they made 5 sure there was no guns or anything in there, and then 6 they let the ambulance attendants come over. 7 Q: So, at the point the Police Officers 8 came out of the ditch, they were pointing rifles at the 9 occupants in the car? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And asked you to put your hands up? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And were you able to put your hands 14 up? 15 A: No, I never put my hands up. 16 Q: And then when you say the Police 17 Officers cleared the car, what do you mean by that? 18 A: They just come up, there was a couple 19 on each side of the car and they flashed flashlights in 20 there, looked on the floor, beside us, as best they could 21 I guess, and a couple of them went back and then the 22 ambulance attendant came over. 23 Q: And at this point did your -- your 24 mother and Tina George is your aunt, but did they get out 25 of the car?
1391 A: I can't remember if they did or not. 2 Q: But you got out of the car? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then what happened? 5 A: I was put on a stretcher and they 6 wheeled me over to the back of the ambulance, and put me 7 in there. 8 Q: Yes. And then what happened? 9 A: The attendants jumped in and then a 10 regular uniformed officer I guess, jumped in. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: He said I was under arrest for 13 mischief -- 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: He read out a bunch of charges. 16 There was quite a few of them. 17 Q: Do you recall what -- what the 18 charges were that he talked to you about as soon as he 19 jumped into the ambulance? 20 A: I believe one was -- I know one was 21 mischief and trespassing and I was pretty sure that he 22 told me that I attempted murder or something, I believe. 23 Q: And what about your mother; was she 24 in the ambulance with you? 25 A: No. They -- I don't know what
1401 happened after that. I was -- couldn't see anything. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I didn't see anything after I was in 4 the ambulance. 5 Q: And the officer who was in the 6 ambulance with you; did he, after he told you that you 7 were being charged with this number of charges, did he 8 say anything else to you? 9 A: No, not that I can remember. I 10 didn't want to talk to him. 11 Q: And did you know where you were 12 going? Did anyone tell you where you were going? 13 A: No, I -- I didn't know. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I might have asked somewhere down the 16 line. I can't remember. 17 Q: Can't remember? And what were you 18 thinking when you were in the -- in the ambulance? 19 A: I was thinking -- I was thinking a 20 lot of things but mostly I was thinking if I was going to 21 see anybody again. 22 Q: And why were you thinking that? 23 A: Well, it was because of the fact we - 24 - I just got shot and they put me in the ambulance with 25 this cop, you know, and took me off without saying where
1411 I was going or didn't know what was going on with my 2 mother, the rest of my family. 3 Q: And where were you taken? 4 A: Strathroy Hospital. 5 Q: And on the way there was there a 6 medical attendant in the ambulance with you? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: And what happened when you arrived at 9 the hospital? 10 A: They take me into this room, must be 11 the emergency ward. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Took my -- took my shirt off, dressed 14 my wounds and -- 15 Q: And how many wounds did you have at 16 this point? 17 A: Two (2). And they cleaned them up 18 and they said they were waiting for an X-ray specialist 19 to come down and X-ray my back and stuff. 20 Q: And why did they say they wanted to 21 X-ray your back? 22 A: They were treating it as -- as a 23 gunshot wound -- as if it was still -- there was a bullet 24 still lodged in my back or in my upper part of my body. 25 Q: Is that what the medical people told
1421 you, they were concerned that you had -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- had a bullet in you? 4 A: Because I had told them -- told the 5 one (1) doctor what had happened. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: I had told one (1) doctor what had 8 happened. 9 Q: Yes. What did you tell her? 10 A: I just told her I was in a little 11 altercation and that I got shot in the back. 12 Q: And, yes, and so what did -- what did 13 she tell you; if anything? 14 A: She just dressed my wounds, took my 15 blood pressure, pulse, all that stuff and listened to my 16 breathing, made sure my breathing was all right. They 17 dressed my wounds and just pushed me off to the side a 18 little bit. 19 Q: Still in the same room? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And did you know the name of the 22 doctor? 23 A: No, I can't remember. 24 Q: But it was a female doctor? 25 A: Female, yes.
1431 Q: And when you were in the emergency 2 department did anyone else come in to the room? 3 A: I believe Bernard was already there, 4 if I can remember correctly. 5 Q: When you arrived Bernard -- Cecil 6 Bernard George was there? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: They had us all lined up, three (3) 10 tables, like, right in a row, and I was on the end one, 11 Bernard was on the middle table, and they brought Dudley 12 in and they put him on the last table. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: They were mostly -- mostly working on 15 Bernard. He was having a real hard time breathing. I -- 16 I didn't even recognize him, how bad he was beat up. 17 And they brought Dudley in, alls he had on 18 was just his blue jean shorts. They put him up -- put 19 him on the table, checked for vital signs, pulse and 20 stuff, and I just remember the doctor saying they can't 21 do anything for him, that he was gone. 22 Q: And how long was -- was this after 23 they had brought him in? 24 A: It was -- it was very short, couple 25 minutes.
1441 Q: And how long after you were -- went 2 into the Emergency room did they bring in Mr. Dudley 3 George? 4 A: It would have had to been at least 5 ten (10) minutes. 6 Q: And how big was the room that you 7 were in with Cecil Bernard George and Mr. Dudley George? 8 A: I -- I'd say approximately fourteen 9 (14) -- fourteen (14) by twenty (20), maybe. 10 Q: A fairly large -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- room? And after they -- the 13 medical personnel said that they could do -- that Dudley 14 George was gone, what happened next? 15 A: They went back and they were still 16 doing their -- still doing work on Bernard, checking him 17 out and stuff. I was -- I was just laying there, just 18 looking at Dudley. And finally they moved me out to a 19 different room, in a hallway, it was just -- had curtains 20 around it. 21 Q: So they moved you out of the 22 Emergency room you were in? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Into the hallway, and put curtains 25 around you?
1451 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And that -- was the room you were 3 moved into or the area you moved into connected to the 4 Emergency room? 5 A: Yeah. It was just down the hallway. 6 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 7 A: I was laying there for a while and I 8 believe it was Sam that came in a little while after. 9 Q: And did you see Mr. Sam George or did 10 you just hear his voice? 11 A: I can't believe -- I can't remember. 12 Q: And but you -- so, you believe Sam, 13 Mr. Sam George came in? 14 A: I think he -- I think he came into 15 the -- around the curtain. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: I'm pretty sure that he did. 18 Q: And what happened when -- did you 19 hear his voice first? 20 A: I think so, yeah. 21 Q: And can you recall what happened? 22 A: I don't know what was said. It's all 23 I can really remember, just laying there for a while and 24 they're still telling me they were waiting for X-rays and 25 stuff to do with my back, and they moved me upstairs.
1461 Q: And they moved you upstairs. Before 2 you were moved upstairs, had you had the X-rays? 3 A: I can't -- I can't remember. 4 Q: Okay. And they moved you upstairs to 5 where, to a -- a room? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did the doctors tell you or could 8 you see when you were in the emergency room what your 9 wounds were like? 10 A: No, I never seen them. 11 Q: And did they tell you about them? 12 A: No, not really, I don't think. I 13 can't remember. 14 Q: And when you were in your room what 15 happened? Was it -- you were in a room just by yourself? 16 Was it a single bed? Was it a double bed? 17 A: Yeah. Yeah, it was a single bed. 18 Q: And then what happened? 19 A: They just put me in the room and then 20 they had OPP guards inside and outside the room. 21 Q: And how many, when you say OPP guards 22 on the inside of the room, how many police officers were 23 inside the room? 24 A: Two (2) on each side of the bed, and 25 there was a couple out in the hallway at all times.
1471 Q: So there was -- you were in a bed 2 against -- I take it the head was against the wall? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And there was one (1) Police Officer 5 on both -- on each side of the bed? 6 A: Yeah, both corners. 7 Q: And then there were -- you -- could 8 you see the Police Officers outside the room? 9 A: Yeah, you could see, there was always 10 one (1) standing by the door and a couple walking by here 11 and there. 12 Q: And what if anything did the Police 13 Officers say to you that were in the room? 14 A: Nothing, I never talked to them. 15 Q: Did they try to talk to you? 16 A: Well, they might have, I don't -- 17 can't remember. 18 Q: Okay. And what happened? This is -- 19 A: I was -- I was trying to stay awake. 20 Q: And why were you trying to stay 21 awake? 22 A: I was still scared, I didn't trust 23 them. I didn't trust Police. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I didn't know what they were going to
1481 try to do to me, while -- if I fell asleep or anything, 2 and so I was just trying to stay awake for as long as I 3 could, and eventually I fell asleep, and I woke up and 4 there was cops all around my bed, and the one (1) 5 technical Police Officer, a big guy, he was -- my right 6 hand was already wet and he was rubbing this stuff on 7 there with -- like a cotton gauze, cotton balls and 8 stuff. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And I kind of come to, and said what 11 are you guys doing? And he just dropped my hand and they 12 went over to the garbage and they got all my clothes and 13 they took off. 14 Q: And did they tell you what they were 15 doing? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And when you woke up, your one (1) 18 hand was wet and the -- the other hand was -- 19 A: Yeah, they were rubbing stuff on it, 20 later I learned it was testing for gunshot residue. 21 Q: And how did you learn about that? 22 A: I was talking to the same fellow, he 23 was the one (1) that photographed my back. 24 Q: Oh, the same Provincial Police 25 Officer?
1491 A: Yeah, he was a big guy, there's 2 probably pictures of him in disclosures and stuff. You 3 know, he's supposed to be a technical -- the OPP's 4 technical guy. He takes pictures, and does all that kind 5 of work. 6 Q: And when -- I think they took 7 pictures of you later on September 7th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And he was the Police Officer at the 10 -- present, when -- one (1) of the Police Officers 11 present when the pictures were taken? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And he told you that they were 14 testing for gunshot residue? 15 A: Well, I asked what they were doing in 16 my room, like why -- why they never woke me up and you 17 know, started doing that stuff. And I was king of asking 18 him what was going on? He goes, oh, we were just testing 19 for gunshot residue. 20 Q: Okay. And so you woke up and the 21 Police Officer was rubbing your hands, the -- with the -- 22 and was there -- was there gauze, was it gauze? It was 23 gauze he was rubbing your hand -- 24 A: Yeah, he had cotton -- cotton balls 25 and stuff.
1501 Q: Yeah. And then after you woke up 2 they stopped, picked up your clothes? 3 A: Yeah, and they left. 4 Q: And it was the same officer who you 5 met again? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then what happened? 8 A: I was awake for a while, and I -- I'm 9 not too sure if that was after that, right before that -- 10 that Warren -- Warren George and Ron George came into my 11 room. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: I'm pretty sure it was after. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: I'm pretty sure it was after that. 16 Q: And Ron George is also known as 17 Spike? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And so they -- why did they come see 20 you? 21 A: To see how I was doing. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: And just asked how I was doing, and 24 told me to hang in there and Warren gave me ten (10) 25 bucks, ten dollars ($10).
1511 Q: Yes. 2 A: They had left, and it was some time 3 later when two (2) more guys came into -- came into my 4 room, and the two (2) OP -- OPP guards, they took off and 5 then these two (2) guys said they were with SIU, and 6 asked me what happened -- what had happened? I told them 7 I wasn't going to talk to them. 8 Q: That you weren't going to talk to 9 them? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I didn't feel like talking to 13 anybody. I -- I didn't really trust anybody. They had 14 given me a card and they had left. 15 Q: Did you keep that card? 16 A: It was with my stuff and I never got 17 it back. 18 Q: Oh, this -- oh, this was before you 19 fell asleep and -- 20 A: No. No, I had -- I still had my 21 shorts. 22 Q: Oh, okay. 23 A: I still had some shorts on and those 24 were taken and it was an hour and a half -- two (2) hours 25 after that then -- that's when I first met Jim Kennedy
1521 and his partner. 2 Q: Oh, Jim Kennedy and his partner? 3 Yes. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And Mr. Kennedy was -- how did he 6 identify himself? 7 A: He identified himself as the same -- 8 same kind of line that he was with SIU 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And we had a little conversation. I 11 told him that I wasn't going to talk to him either 12 because I didn't know what was going on. There was two 13 (2) sets of guys that came in that say that were -- that 14 they were SIU and -- 15 Q: Did you tell Mr. Kennedy that? 16 A: Yes, I told him that I didn't feel -- 17 feel right talking to him. 18 Q: But did you tell him that two (2) 19 other people identifying themself -- 20 A: I believe so, yes. 21 Q: Then how long were you in the 22 hospital? 23 A: All that night and probably until 24 about three o'clock the next day, I believe on the 7th. 25 Q: And -- and where were you taken on
1531 the 7th? 2 A: To Strathroy Detachment. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: OPP Detachment. 5 Q: And what were you wearing when you 6 went to the Strathroy Detachment? 7 A: Just my hospital clothes. I just had 8 a little shirt and hospital -- hospital pants on -- pair 9 of slippers. 10 Q: And your other clothes had been taken 11 by the police? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And, so what happened when you got to 14 the OPP Detachment in Strathroy? 15 A: They -- we walked up to the side 16 entrance, opened it up. The police officer let me in and 17 as soon as you go into the left they've got a big garage 18 there and that's where I believe it was Terry's or 19 Pierre's car -- the one they drove Dudley to Strathroy 20 was in -- in the garage. 21 Q: And how did you know that -- 22 A: I just -- I always seen the car so I 23 knew it was -- I knew it was that car. 24 Q: But how did you know that Dudley was 25 driven to Strathroy in Pierre or Terry's car?
1541 A: Well, there was -- there was a phone. 2 I had a phone in my room. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And talking with -- 5 Q: You'd spoken to your mother or your 6 father? 7 A: I -- I believe so. I think it was my 8 mom or something. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And so when we walked in there, I -- 11 Q: But -- but what did -- did your 12 mother tell you something about Dudley George being 13 driven to the hospital? 14 A: Well, I knew -- I knew that he'd 15 passed on and must have -- must have talked to her. 16 Q: Okay. Anyway, you saw the car, but-- 17 A: Saw the car and I seen a cop, he 18 turned his back and I darted out. I went for that garage 19 and had a look at it, took a look around there and seen 20 the tire -- blown out tire -- seen all the blood on the 21 car, around the inside and he come running in and said, 22 Hey, you're not supposed to be in here and grabbed me and 23 he took me to an interrogation room. 24 Q: Okay. Before we get there -- before 25 we get there -- if we could --
1551 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And do you recognize this vehicle? 5 This is photograph R-19(1)(a) -- 19 zero (0) A, excuse 6 me, from Exhibit P-24. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who's car is that? 9 A: Terry's. Pierre's. One (1) of the 10 two (2). I don't know. I knew it was -- it changed 11 ownership somewhere down the line, but I don't know whose 12 it was at the time. 13 Q: But that was the car you observed at 14 the Strathroy OPP Detachment? 15 A: Yeah, it was faced the other way, 16 though. 17 Q: Faced the other way? So, you were 18 then taken to an interview room? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then what happened? 21 A: Just taken in that room, and all 22 there was a table in there, a couple of chairs. A 23 Detective came in there, Martin, I believe his name is. 24 Q: Martin? Yes? 25 A: He had sat me down and start talking,
1561 asking me what happened, and he had told me that I wasn't 2 allowed to leave or make a phone call until I gave a 3 statement. 4 Q: Did you ask him to -- 5 A: I believe I asked him for to call my 6 mother or my lawyer. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: I'm pretty sure I did that. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: And that's -- that was his reply. 11 Q: That he said to you that you couldn't 12 do that until you made a statement? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did -- do you know if Constable 15 Martin or the Detective from the Ontario Provincial 16 Police knew how old you were when you were at the 17 Strathroy Detachment? 18 A: I'd imagine they would. 19 Q: And when you say you imagine they 20 would, -- 21 A: Because I told the doctor at -- at 22 the hospital, how old I was. 23 Q: That you were -- 24 A: They knew -- they knew my age and... 25 Q: Okay. And, so, the officer said that
1571 you couldn't call your mother or a lawyer or leave until 2 you made a statement, and did you make a statement at 3 that time? 4 A: No, I waited them out for about four 5 and a half (4 1/2), five (5) hours. 6 Q: And what happened then? 7 A: Finally I just told them to come in 8 and I start telling them what was going on and I think we 9 got up to about 9:00 o'clock and then he quit writing. 10 And he was trying to get me to say other stuff. 11 Q: When you say, you were telling him 12 what happened on the evening of September 6th, -- 13 A: Well, I told him everything that 14 happened right up to -- right up 'til I went up to the 15 highway, -- 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: -- and when I got into the 18 ambulance, but he didn't want to hear from when I showed 19 up to do -- at the fence line, before the altercation. 20 From that time to when I got to the highway, he didn't 21 want to listen to it, he already had his own version. 22 Q: Well, can you explain that to me, Mr. 23 Cottrelle, how do you know he had his own version? Just 24 tell me exactly what happened, please. 25 A: He was -- he was trying to say, he
1581 goes, oh, well we got a reason to believe there was heavy 2 gunfire coming out of the -- coming out of the bus, out 3 of the car, and he was trying to get me to say that, so 4 he can write it in that statement. 5 And it's clear on that statement that I 6 give him, that the time line goes up so far and then he 7 quit writing, and he knew he wasn't going to get 8 anywhere. 9 Q: And so you -- you disagreed with what 10 he was saying? 11 A: Oh yeah. Yes. 12 Q: And the conversation came to an end? 13 A: Yes, and it was shortly after that I 14 was able to make a phone call. 15 Q: Okay. And you called -- who did you 16 call? 17 A: I believe I phoned Spike. 18 Q: And Spike is Ron George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And Ron George at the time was a 21 lawyer? 22 A: Yeah, he was my lawyer at the time. 23 Q: And Ron George had been before and 24 subsequently became an OPP Officer? 25 A: I think it was before that, when he
1591 was a lawyer, and he's an OPP Officer Inspector. 2 Q: And so you spoke to Ron George. Did 3 you speak to your mother as well? 4 A: I can't remember. I knew, they came 5 -- that was who came and picked me up though. 6 Q: Was? 7 A: Ron and my mother. 8 Q: Okay. And at some point were you 9 taken back to the Strathroy Hospital and photographs 10 taken? 11 A: Earlier that day, I think. 12 Q: And -- excuse me for a minute. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the 17 photographs that I'm about to show my -- to Mr. 18 Cottrelle, were part of the disclosure made to us by the 19 Ontario Provincial Police and the SUI, and they were 20 photographs that were taken on September 7th, by -- of 21 Mr. Cottrelle. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And this is a
1601 photograph identified as 15-1A, and there are six (6) 2 photographs, Commissioner, that are in this series. 3 There are other photographs and there's also a video, I 4 think the video has already been marked that showed Mr. 5 Cottrelle, but there's also a video. 6 There are more photographs, but I propose 7 to mark these six (6) as the next exhibit, it would be 8 Exhibit P-126. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-126, Your Honour. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Plus the CD-Rom that 11 contains the six (6) photographs. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-126: Photographs by OPP and SIU 14 Sept 7/95, Six Photographs 15 1) 15.1a; 2)mag 50, 15.6a; 16 3)15-7a; 4)mag 49, 15.9a; 17 5)mag 51, 15.11a; 6)mag 52, 15.15a 18 plus CD Rom. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And do you recognize that picture, 22 Mr. Cottrelle, is that you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the two (2) wounds that you had 25 are identified with the bandages on your back?
1611 A: Yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And this is a -- shows a picture of - 6 - it's identified as photograph number -- Mag number 50, 7 and it's got the identifier 15-6A, and that is the wound 8 that was on your left hand side of your back, your side 9 towards the back? 10 A: Yes, it's the one (1) I felt 11 initially. 12 Q: And did any medical people tell you 13 what they thought that was caused by? 14 A: Not that I -- I can't remember. 15 Q: What did you think it was caused by? 16 A: A bullet. 17 Q: And why do you think it was caused by 18 a bullet? 19 A: Just because of the fact that I heard 20 gunshots and glass breaking, and I heard -- felt my back 21 start burning, so -- 22 Q: Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1621 Q: And this is a close up picture of the 2 wound, it's identified as photograph 15-7A, part of 3 Exhibit 126. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Is it 126, Mr. 5 Registrar? 6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: This is photograph number 49, a mag 12 49, identified as a photograph as well, 15-9A, and again, 13 shows the wound on your left side; is that correct, Mr. 14 Cottrelle? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And this is a photograph, it's 17 identified as mag 51, and it's photograph 15-11A, and it 18 shows your back, and you could see the wound on your left 19 side and also a wound on the right side of your back? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this photograph is marked mag 52, 22 and also photograph 15-15A, and it's a closeup shot of 23 your -- the wound on your right-hand side of your back; 24 do you know what -- were you told what caused that wound, 25 Mr. Cottrelle?
1631 A: Not at the time. 2 Q: It's -- later were you told? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what were you told? 5 A: They extracted a -- fairly good 6 chunks out, good piece of glass, it was probably from the 7 window. 8 Q: So, at -- at the time when you were 9 in the hospital on the morning -- the morning of 10 September 7th and before you left the hospital, they 11 treated that as a cut and then subsequently you found -- 12 you learnt there was a piece of glass in there? 13 A: First they were treating it as a 14 gunshot -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- injury. Then, after the X-rays 17 were taken it was just a wound, I guess. 18 Q: And so, when -- when did you realize 19 there was a piece of glass in your back? 20 A: I can't remember how -- how much 21 later it was, but it was taken out at Forest doctor's 22 office. 23 Q: And what was taken out of your back? 24 A: A piece of glass. 25 Q: And when did you realize that there
1641 was a piece of glass still in your back? How did you 2 know something was still there? 3 A: About a week later, when I was in the 4 shower I was scrubbing around it and there was something 5 hard in there, like it was moving around. 6 Q: And so you went back and a piece of 7 glass was taken out? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what happened with the piece of 10 glass? 11 A: SIU has it still, I believe. 12 Q: Okay. And when were you finally 13 allowed to leave the Strathroy Detachment? 14 A: I believe it was approximately 10:30, 15 11:00. 16 Q: And you said that your mother and Ron 17 George came and picked you up? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then were you charged with any 20 offences? 21 A: Not that I can remember. 22 Q: Were you not charged with dangerous 23 driving or criminal negligence with respect to driving 24 the bus? 25 A: I -- I can't remember.
1651 Q: Did you recall going to Court over 2 the charges? 3 A: Yeah, eventually. But I -- I don't 4 think -- I can't remember if I was handed paperwork that 5 night or not. 6 Q: Okay. I -- yeah, I'm sorry that I've 7 missed -- it's my fault. Were you at some point charged 8 with offences arising from the evening of September 6th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what were those offences? 11 A: Dangerous operation of a motor 12 vehicle, assault with a weapon, being the bus -- I think 13 there was, like, five (5) charges, maybe. 14 Q: And what happened with those charges? 15 A: They were all thrown out of Court. 16 Q: You went to trial and they were 17 dismissed? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the -- how long had you known 20 Dudley George prior to September 6th, 1995? 21 A: All my life. 22 Q: And how did -- would you describe 23 your relationship with Dudley George? 24 A: Nothing -- nothing really too 25 personal, just knew each other. Talked with -- got to
1661 know him more when I moved down there. 2 Q: Down to the Army Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you spend time with him? 5 A: Yeah, I would say I did. 6 Q: And after you were -- the events of 7 September 6th, did you go back to school and to Grade 11 8 in September of 1995? 9 A: Yeah, I think it was, like, '97 I 10 went back for two (2) weeks. 11 Q: Okay, but -- but in the fall of 12 1995 -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- you were scheduled to go back to 15 school? 16 A: No, I never went. 17 Q: And why didn't you go? 18 A: My time was better spent down on 19 Stoney Point. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: I said my time was better spent down 22 on Stoney Point. 23 Q: And why do you -- what -- what do you 24 mean by that? 25 A: I just felt like I had to be there --
1671 down there during that time. We didn't know what was 2 going on, if the cops were going to try to come in again 3 or not. I was on -- I was the on the Base, myself, from 4 -- from the time that I got back from Strathroy 5 Detachment up until late November. I finally left. I 6 was -- never left the Base for, like, two (2) or three 7 (3) months. 8 Q: And why didn't you leave the Base for 9 two (2) or three (3) months? 10 A: Well, we didn't know what was going 11 on with Court or if I was going to get picked up or if I 12 was even going to come back. 13 Q: What do you mean, If I was even going 14 to come back? 15 A: I just didn't trust the police after 16 that happened. I didn't know what they were up to. 17 Q: And then you finally left some time 18 after -- in -- in late November or early December? 19 A: Yeah, I think me and Warren -- 20 Warren, Jr. went down to Port Franks for gas in our car. 21 It was just a small ride, but felt pretty good. 22 Q: And the -- did you -- you went -- you 23 said that you went back -- tried to go back to school in 24 1997? 25 A: Yeah, it was approximately for about
1681 two (2) weeks -- three (3) weeks. 2 Q: And where did you try to go back to 3 school in 1997? 4 A: North Lambton Secondary School. 5 Q: In Forest? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And why did you leave after two (2) 8 or three (3) weeks? 9 A: I didn't really feel welcome. 10 Q: And when you say, "You didn't really 11 feel welcome," can you describe to the Commissioner what 12 you mean by that, Mr. Cottrelle? 13 A: Just basically the attitude that I 14 was getting from -- I wouldn't say all the teachers, but 15 a majority of them. There was -- had to have been a 16 handful of them that -- they had interests in the west 17 Ipperwash beach properties. 18 They -- where they -- land holders there 19 and I could just tell by the looks, the way they talked 20 to me and stuff that they thought what I did was wrong or 21 something. Just their attitude, like, I could really 22 feel it. 23 Q: Were there any specific incidents 24 that you can tell about? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1691 Q: We weren't there, Mr. Cottrelle, and 2 we need to -- and I know it's difficult, but I need you 3 to attempt to describe to us what you mean by that. 4 A: Well, there's -- I can't even -- 5 can't even remember the teacher's name, but he kind of 6 took me out of -- took me aside after -- after class and 7 more or less just told me downright that he didn't like 8 who I -- didn't like me just cause of the fact where I 9 lived and where I came from. 10 I'm going to have to look around. I'll 11 have to look in my yearbook for the name of the teacher, 12 but I can get that for you guys. 13 Q: And, so after two (2) or three (3) 14 weeks you left? 15 A: Yeah, just took off. 16 Q: And have you gone back to school 17 since? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And after the events of September 20 6th, were you offered any counselling by anyone? 21 A: No, I had to seek it out on my own. 22 Q: And did you seek out counselling? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And before we close, Mr. 25 George, I mean Mr. Cottrelle, excuse me, is there
1701 anything else you would like to say? 2 A: Not that I can think of, no. 3 Q: And, Mr. Cottrelle, one of the things 4 that the Commissioner is charged with doing is to make 5 recommendations as to how to prevent violence in the 6 future in situations such as this. 7 And do you have any recommendations you 8 would like to make to the Commissioner for him to 9 consider? 10 A: No. The only thing that really comes 11 to mind is that to prevent, like, any kind of incident 12 like this or anywhere else, would probably be to ask the 13 government to honour and respect all treaties and any 14 kind of dealings that they had with the First Nation 15 people and to really respect and honour that and 16 recognize -- recognize their dealings. 17 And when they do mess up, if they do, to 18 come clean and not, like, try to hide anything. 19 Q: And before I close, I have one more 20 question, when you were in the Park did any police 21 officer tell you that if you stayed in the Park, within 22 the Park boundaries and did not go out into the Sandy 23 Parking Lot that nothing would be done with respect to 24 your being in the Park? 25 A: I -- no, I don't think so.
1711 Q: And were you ever -- do you recall, 2 were you ever told when you were outside in the Sandy 3 Parking Lot, the access road to the beach, to go back 4 into the Park? 5 A: No, I can't remember. I don't think 6 so. 7 Q: And on the evening of September 6th, 8 do you recall whether the Ontario Provincial Police had a 9 bullhorn or any other method of communicating with the 10 people in the Park? 11 A: No. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just one moment. 13 Thank you very much, Mr. Cottrelle. Before we -- the 14 other lawyers who represent other parties here will now 15 have the opportunity to ask you questions and which we'll 16 probably do after lunch. 17 But perhaps we could canvass everyone to 18 see who would like to cross-examine Mr. Cottrelle? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have Mr. 20 Klippenstein...? 21 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Fifteen (15) 22 minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 24 minutes. Mr. Rosenthal...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Approximately
1721 forty-five (45) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 3 Tuck-Jackson...? 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Twenty (20) to 5 thirty (30). 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 7 Roland...? 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Hour and a half to two 9 (2) hours. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 11 McAleer...? 12 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thirty (30) 13 minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 15 O'Marra...? 16 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (5) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 18 minutes. It's possible that we'll finish this afternoon. 19 So we'll adjourn -- is that right, I get a sense of a 20 possible finish this afternoon. 21 We'll adjourn now for lunch, quarter to 22 1:00 until two o'clock. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Cottrelle, thank 24 you very much. If you'd come back after lunch then 25 hopefully we'll finish this afternoon.
1731 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 4 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 12:45 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon, Mr. Klippenstein. I think you're up first. 13 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 17 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, you were asked at the 18 end of your examination for your thoughts and suggestions 19 to this Commission as to how what happened at the Park 20 can be avoided in the future; do you remember that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And part of your answer was that the 23 government should respect and honour the treaties; is 24 that right? 25 A: Yes.
1741 Q: We've heard evidence that your people 2 entered into a treaty with the Crown over a hundred and 3 fifty (150) years ago in which the Crown promised that 4 the Stoney Point Reserve, which includes the Ipperwash 5 Park lands, would belong to your people forever. 6 Do you accept and agree with that 7 evidence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Would you agree that the 10 confrontation and violence that surrounded the death of 11 Dudley George would have been avoided if the Provincial 12 and Federal Governments had kept that promise and 13 respected and honoured your historic land and treaty 14 rights? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: Would you support a recommendation by 17 this Commission that the Province of Ontario give up its 18 claim to the Ipperwash Park lands and help restore those 19 lands to native people? 20 A: Yeah, it would be the right thing to 21 do. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. I 23 have no further questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. Mr. Rosenthal...?
1751 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, 2 Commissioner. Good afternoon. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: Afternoon, sir. 6 A: Afternoon. 7 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm 8 representing some people from Stoney Point under the name 9 Aazhoodena and the George Family Group. 10 Now, you told us that you attended the 11 funeral in 1990 of Dan George, Senior, as -- as a young 12 child then you were? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I understand though that that was 15 a significant event in recent history of the Stoney Point 16 people in that Dan George, Senior, was somebody who had 17 been talking about regaining the Stoney Point lands for 18 many years and was well respected as leader in that 19 movement; is that fair to say? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And his returning, finally, to Stoney 22 Point, only after he had passed away, was a very 23 significant event in the recent history; is that fair to 24 say? 25 A: Yes.
1761 Q: And from that time onward there was - 2 - there was increased interest in regaining the land by 3 Stoney Point people? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, you -- you told us a bit this 6 morning about being taught by Marcia Simon and some other 7 people about the -- some matters as part of what was 8 called "the Warrior Society"? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Could you tell us just a wee bit more 11 about what they taught you about? 12 A: It wasn't -- like, it wasn't really a 13 -- like a formal -- like a classroom setting, I should -- 14 I should say. It was more or less people -- older people 15 like Morris and Glenn or Elders sitting around and they 16 were talking about it, as far as, like, duties, what our 17 role is in -- in the community. 18 Q: And did they also talk about the 19 history of Stoney Point to some extent? 20 A: Yeah, it was -- that was always 21 talked about. 22 Q: And -- and also about traditional 23 teachings of -- of your people? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you said that you would prefer
1771 the -- the title "peace keepers" to warrior society. Is 2 that because you think that's a more accurate description 3 of its purpose? 4 A: As -- as far as my understanding as 5 my role in the community, yes. 6 Q: And people who don't understand what 7 was meant, they see the word "warrior society", they 8 should understand that, at least in this context, it 9 meant they are a peace keeping society, is that fair? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, you told us this morning about 12 some military officers, on range patrol, going along in 13 loudspeakers -- with loudspeakers and making statements 14 and so on -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- you recall that evidence? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: First off, what does your 19 understanding what the range patrol was, or is? 20 A: Geez, I really couldn't tell you. To 21 me they're -- I really couldn't tell you what their 22 really duty was. 23 Q: Right, but they were some military 24 officers, were they? 25 A: Yeah. I -- as far as I know they was
1781 collecting a cheque. They really would -- didn't have no 2 duties I guess. They just rode around all the time. 3 Q: I see. And you told us that you 4 quite frequently saw them driving by on Highway 21 and... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I'll try one more time, that you 9 quite frequently saw them driving by on Highway 21 and 10 shouting things through loud hailers -- loudspeakers? 11 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 12 Q: And you said they were obscenities. 13 Did -- did that include racial epithets about First 14 Nations people? 15 A: For the most part, yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: I'd like to move to an event that you 20 witnessed concerning Kevin Simon in August of 1995, get a 21 little more information about what happened on that 22 occasion. 23 Now, Kevin Simon did testify before this 24 Inquiry, on December 1st, and he told us that the 25 officers said that they had a warrant for him. Is that
1791 square with your recollection, sir? 2 A: I couldn't -- I don't really remember 3 what was said. 4 Q: I see, okay. 5 A: Whether it was -- I think it was 6 something to that effect. 7 Q: And then he told us that he told them 8 that this is our Park, and what he meant by that was that 9 it's part of our reserve, Stoney Point First Nation 10 Aazhoodena and that they didn't seem to like that too 11 much, was their reaction. Do you remember some words to 12 that effect? 13 A: I can't really say, no I don't really 14 remember. 15 Q: Okay. I do appreciate this was a 16 long time ago and you were a young man at the time. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Do you recall them grabbing Kevin 21 Simon and pushing him against a police cruiser? 22 A: Yeah, it was on the -- the trunk hood 23 of their cruiser. He'd gotten up and like initially the 24 police officer grabbed him -- grabbed him by the arm and 25 then I'm pretty sure he grabbed him by the back of the
1801 neck and slammed him on the -- the trunk hood of the 2 cruiser. 3 And he kind of fought them at first. Got 4 away, Kevin went around the driver's side of the car and 5 the cop went to chase him, but he had his radio out on 6 his shoulder. I was attached to his walkie-talkie and I 7 got wedged in between the -- the window and the side view 8 mirror. 9 And when he was running after Kevin it -- 10 it jerked him back and that's how he got away. 11 Q: I see. And then you told us you 12 didn't see him again until he returned in the cruiser 13 after they had captured him? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Now there was evidently some incident 16 on September 4th, 1995 at Matheson Drive involving Stuart 17 George and a police constable. And I'm not sure if you 18 were present for that or not. 19 Do you recall an incident on September 4, 20 involving an interchange between Stuart George and a 21 police constable? 22 A: No. Unless it was the one at -- on 23 the beach, but -- 24 Q: Yes, on the beach. 25 A: Yeah.
1811 Q: Near Matheson Drive. And Stewart 2 George testified on November 2nd, in front of this 3 Inquiry, and he said we were all sitting on the beach at 4 a place called, the Pass, is that the term you know, the 5 Pass? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Evidently, an officer is likely to 8 testify, at this Inquiry, that Stewart George said to the 9 officer, on that occasion, Do you know how many crossbows 10 you have -- you have focussed on you right now -- on you 11 right now, or words to that effect. 12 Stewart George denied saying those words. 13 Did you hear any such words? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Were there, to your knowledge, any 16 crossbows of any kind, at any time, in Ipperwash Park or 17 the Camp or anywhere near here? 18 A: No, not to my knowledge. 19 Q: And, apparently it will also be 20 alleged by an officer that Stewart George said to him, 21 How many gun sites do you think are aimed at your head 22 from the sand dunes? 23 And again Stewart George denied saying 24 that. Did you hear those words? 25 A: No.
1821 Q: Now you told us that an officer told 2 Dudley George, You will be the first to go, or words to 3 that effect? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: It's important -- is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you have any recollection of what 8 that officer looked like, any possible description that 9 you could give us of that officer? 10 A: From what he looked like and from 11 what I seen in the newspapers, I'd have to say he'd be 12 Ken Deane. 13 Q: So, after this event, Ken Deane's 14 paper was -- picture was in the papers quite a lot, -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- and you saw those pictures? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you compared those pictures to 19 your memory of the officer who threatened Dudley George, 20 and in your view they were the same person? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Are you -- are you quite confident 23 that it was the -- did you have a really good memory at 24 the time? 25 A: Of every -- yeah, of everybody that
1831 was down there, they all -- they've got the same -- same 2 idea, because he was the most vocal out of the group. He 3 was the only one that was talking. 4 Q: Ken Deane? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: So, on -- he was the most vocal out 7 of the group on that occasion? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Or on other occasions as well? 10 A: Well, just that occasion. 11 Q: On that occasion. So do you recall 12 any of the words that he might have said on that 13 occasion? 14 A: He was just staying stuff like, 15 welcome to Canada, come to this side of the fence, like 16 he was trying to draw one (1) of us out to cross the 17 fence. 18 Q: I see. And you're quite sure it was 19 the officer -- 20 A: Oh, yes. 21 Q: -- you later came to know as Ken Dean 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now you told us on -- go -- moving 24 ahead to September 6 now, that on that date you saw a 25 number of police cruisers and were even told that there
1841 were additional officers in cars and military vehicles 2 and so on, and quite a build up. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I gather from your evidence, but I 5 just wanted to clarify, that this was well before the 6 incident involving Stewart George and Gerald George? 7 A: Yeah. It was early afternoon, I 8 believe. 9 Q: By early afternoon you noticed the 10 big build up and the incident with Stewart and Gerald was 11 in the early evening, we're told? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you also, I gather, again, well 14 before the incident with Stewart and Gerald, got 15 information that police were evacuating some cottages 16 from the West Ipperwash Beach; is that correct? 17 A: Yes. A lady had came down and -- to 18 the fire at the Park store, and that's what she had said. 19 I'm not too sure if it was Bonnie or not. She come down 20 there and that they were evacuating the cottages. 21 Q: I see. And that was also well before 22 the incident involving Stewart and Gerald George? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now moving ahead to later in the 25 evening, before the police arrived in large numbers on
1851 East Parkway Drive, did you see a white Suburban pull up 2 near there? 3 A: Yeah, it was a little bit before the 4 altercation took place. 5 Q: And -- and what did you see? Could 6 you describe that, sir? 7 A: From -- from where I was, I seen the 8 white -- white Suburban pull in to this first driveway. 9 Q: Sorry, to which driveway? 10 A: This one right here. 11 Q: That would be -- the driveway -- 12 second driveway moving west -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- on the map. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sixty-eight forty-two 16 (6842). 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Address 6842, Mr. Millar informs us. 20 Is that what you see up there, sir? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you saw a white suburban pull 23 into that driveway and what else did you observe? 24 A: It pulled in and alls I could see is 25 the tail lights. The brake lights, they went off and
1861 then you can hear doors close. It backed up and then it 2 went -- would be west on East Parkway Drive. 3 Q: So it just drove in, and then quite 4 soon thereafter, backed out -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- and drove west? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So did you ever see the occupants of 9 that vehicle? 10 A: Pardon me? 11 Q: Did you see who was inside that 12 vehicle? 13 A: No, it pulled behind the bushes. 14 Alls I could see is the brake and tail lights from where 15 I was. 16 Q: I see. So that was about how long 17 before the large body of officers came marching down East 18 Parkway Drive? 19 A: I'd say that had to of been about ten 20 o'clock. 21 Q: At ten o'clock and we're told the 22 other -- the marching of the officers began around closer 23 to eleven o'clock. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: So --
1871 A: It was shortly after 11:00. 2 Q: -- it was approximately an hour 3 before. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Now on September 6th, at any time 6 during the day, do you recall officers telling you to get 7 out of the Park, or that you'd have to get out of the 8 Park? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Sorry? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And on the evening, did you notice 13 any police officers in the bushes or in the bush? 14 A: During -- on the 6th? 15 Q: On the 6th. 16 A: Just when I pulled up with the bus. 17 When I went by the vans they were all in the ditches in 18 both sides of the road. 19 Q: I see. But that before then, you 20 don't recall seeing officers in the bush at all? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now you told us this morning that 23 you, in answer to the question about how many officers 24 were beaning -- beating Cecil Bernard George, you said 25 eight (8). That's an approximation I guess? Is that
1881 correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Somewhere around eight (8). Could 4 have been ten (10), could have been seven (7)? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And from you observed, and I 7 appreciate you didn't observe the entire time that Cecil 8 Bernard George was being beaten, but from what you 9 observed, did new officers start beating him and -- and 10 some of the ones beating him withdraw, or did it appear 11 to you that it was the same eight (8) -- approximately 12 eight (8) officers the entire time who were beating? 13 A: It appeared to be the same. Like 14 they were all wearing the same gear, so, it'd be hard to 15 tell if one backed out and another one jumped in there. 16 Q: But you didn't specifically see -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- officers backing away from -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- Cecil? And in addition to them 21 hitting Cecil Bernard George with shields, I gather you 22 observed them hitting him with clubs as well? 23 A: Yeah, and they were -- 24 Q: Batons? 25 A: -- also kicking him, too.
1891 Q: Also? 2 A: Kicking him. 3 Q: Also kicking him. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And at some point you saw, I gather, 6 Cecil Bernard George on the ground, curled up, trying to 7 protect himself; is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And trying to guard his head? 10 A: Yeah, he was pretty much in a ball, 11 like, curled right up. 12 Q: And how much was that before you got 13 into the bus? Was that moments before or? 14 A: Yeah, a couple of minutes, maybe. 15 Q: And you told us that someone yelled, 16 Get the bus, and that -- that put the thought in your 17 mind in getting the bus to assist Cecil Bernard George, 18 correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I gather that you were hoping 21 that your driving the bus out would somehow stop the 22 officers from continuing that beating? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And could you tell, did it have any 25 such effect?
1901 A: Well, I -- by the time that I 2 actually got out to where it was they were, like, he was 3 already gone, like, from the moments leading from when I 4 jumped on -- actually jumped onto the bus, they were 5 started to drag him. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: And dragging him west. On East 8 Parkway Drive. 9 Q: So you don't know to what extent your 10 driving the bus out may or may not have had distracted 11 them from -- 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: -- continuing the beating? 14 A: Yeah, it was all I could do, so. 15 Q: Now, you indicated with a number 6 on 16 the diagram behind you the furthermost portion west -- 17 the furthermost west that you had gotten with the bus on 18 that evening. 19 Could you try to show us with the laser 20 light, perhaps, the route as best as you can recollect, 21 that you took to get to that spot? 22 A: Yeah. I drove out through the gate 23 here. Q: Yes. 24 A: Pushing the dumpster, and I turned 25 right a little bit to move the dumpster over, and then I
1911 come back out and just come out like that right up the 2 road -- pretty much up the middle of the road. 3 Q: I see. I would think, Mr. 4 Commissioner, it might be appropriate if he were to mark 5 that with a line, because the way the bus went might be 6 useful. 7 So, sir, would you perhaps take the black 8 marker and make a line beginning at the beginning of your 9 bus trip that night and try and reconstruct it as 10 accurately as possible? 11 A: (INDICATING) 12 Q: Thank you, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 14 put a number on that? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, it's the 16 only -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 18 just want to mark it -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- line, but -- 20 yeah, okay. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: That would be number 7 then, sir. 24 Maybe you could put it right in the middle of the line. 25 And then -- that is a good suggestion, Mr. Commissioner,
1921 because I'm now going to ask him about the reserve and 2 that might be a different line. 3 Can you tell us, sir, as best as you 4 recollect, the reverse trip that you took that night. 5 A: Pretty much the same line. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: Like it was kind of -- well, the bus 8 probably was going all over because I couldn't see. I 9 was crouched down. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: And I must have went out towards the 12 lake enough to hit the dumpster. But as far as the 13 route, I really couldn't -- couldn't see where I was 14 going. 15 Q: Right. But it was pretty much 16 retracing your steps? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And in particular, as you've 19 indicated, you were basically, to the extent that you 20 were on the pavement of East Parkway Drive in the middle 21 of the road, and not on either side of it; is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1931 Q: Now, at the point when you stopped 2 the bus at the furthest most point, when you looked out 3 in front of you, what did you see? 4 A: Cops. 5 Q: And what were the cops doing? 6 A: To the left of me they were laying in 7 the ditch, kind of half in the ditch and kind of half on 8 the road, weapons drawn. And to the right of me they 9 were kind of just crouched down in the bushes. 10 Q: And did some of them have their guns 11 out, do you recall? 12 A: They all did. 13 Q: They all did? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And handguns or rifles or some of 16 each? 17 A: Some of them -- yeah, some of them 18 were carrying handguns. Some had long rifles and a 19 couple of them that I seen were compact, like a sub- 20 machine gun, I guess. 21 Q: And were any of those pointed at you? 22 A: I really can't remember. 23 Q: I see. 24 A: More than likely, yeah. 25
1941 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now afterward, I gather you 4 determined that there were a number of bullet holes in 5 the bus, is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And how many was that? 8 A: Quite a few. But most of them were 9 concentrated round the front. 10 Q: I see. I believe in an earlier 11 statement you indicated that you thought there were 12 twelve (12) bullet holes in the bus. Is that 13 approximately -- 14 A: It would be pretty close, yeah. 15 Q: -- how many there were? 16 A: They were -- they were all marked. I 17 think the SIU marked them out. They had little stickers 18 with like a measuring tape on. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And I had counted them. 21 Q: And you told us you were familiar 22 with this bus prior to that evening. Were there any such 23 holes in the bus prior to that evening? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Now, sir, you were placed in an
1951 ambulance, as you told us. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And your mother had been right near 4 you just before you were placed in the ambulance. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you recall her requesting the 7 right to go along with you or anything -- any discussion 8 of that? 9 A: I don't -- no, not that I remember. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: Because when I got out of the car, I 12 was placed on a stretcher and wheeled over to the back of 13 the ambulance. I was loaded. One (1) police officer 14 jumped in, shut the door and we took off. 15 Q: And from what you told us about the 16 way you felt in the ambulance, I take it you would have 17 certainly liked the comfort of having a parent with you 18 on that trip? 19 A: Yeah, probably would have -- yeah, it 20 would have been nice. 21 Q: Sir, at the time, you were sixteen 22 (16) years old, is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I don't know if we have a picture of 25 you from the front or not, but did you look particularly
1961 old or particularly young or -- sixteen (16) year old 2 kids can look -- 3 A: I don't know -- 4 Q: -- very different. Were you as big 5 as you are now? 6 A: Yeah, actually I think I was bigger. 7 I was more heavy set. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I weighed quite a bit more. 10 Q: But were you -- you'd attained your 11 full height, pretty much? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: But you told the officers at some 14 point that you were only sixteen (16)? 15 A: I can't remember. I know I told the 16 doctor at hospital. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: I know the -- the officers that were 19 at the hospital were talking to the doctors quite a bit. 20 Q: Right. One (1) minute, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And, sir, you told Mr. Millar that
1971 you were charged with several offences as a result of 2 September 6th, 1995. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you went to trial on those 5 offences? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you were acquitted at trial; is 8 that correct? 9 A: Yes, of all charges. 10 Q: Yes. I should like to ask you about 11 a couple of aspects of the judgment at that trial. And 12 that judgment is at your Tab 21 in your materials, I 13 believe, sir. 14 And for all Counsel, it's in Volume III of 15 our CDs and it's Inquiry Document 1004971. Also Mr. 16 Millar has kindly agreed to put it on the screen for us. 17 I'd like to draw your attention, sir -- this is the 18 judgment at the end of your trial, and I'd like to draw 19 your attention first to Page 3. 20 I'm sorry, I have the wrong-- the wrong 21 document in my... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Oh, he doesn't have it?
1981 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We're trying to 4 find a copy for the Witness. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we've 6 got a brief for Mr. Cottrelle, we'll -- we're just going 7 to get -- I didn't realize he didn't have it. Well, I'll 8 just get the book because I'm certain others will want to 9 look at it. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 14 Q: I'd just like to point you to a 15 couple of excerpts from this judgment, sir, so we can 16 understand what exactly happened at your trial. 17 At the bottom of page 3, and I've lost -- 18 Mr. Millar's doing seven (7) seven things at once here. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: At the bottom of page 3, it reads, 23 beginning about line 26: 24 "Bernard George testified that he was 25 knocked to the ground backwards,
1991 started to see stars, but soon lost 2 consciousness. He testified as to 3 being kicked in the head, stomach and 4 crotch and clubbed all over his body. 5 He further testified...", 6 And then continuing the page: 7 "...that on several occasions he had 8 said, 'I give up'. He indicated that 9 he was endeavouring to effect the peace 10 between the natives and the police 11 force and his purpose in addressing the 12 police was to engage them in dialogue. 13 I find Bernard George to be a credible 14 witness and I accept his evidence." 15 Then it talks about your testimony, 16 beginning at line 16 of that page, or seventeen (17): 17 "The accused, Nicholas Cottrelle, 18 testified that he was standing in the 19 proximity of Bernard George at the time 20 of the beating and that he then heard 21 someone say, 'Get the bus out there', 22 in order to rescue Bernard George." 23 Just wanted to put that part to set the 24 stage for what I should like to refer to at page 12, if I 25 may.
2001 At about line 5 of page 12 the Justice 2 states: 3 "I find that Cottrelle had witnessed at 4 least part of the arrest of Bernard 5 George, testified he saw eight (8) to 6 ten (10) people around George hitting 7 him with batons and kicking him." 8 And then it continues, and then I should 9 like pick up at line 17: 10 "The only logical conclusion is that 11 Cottrelle then entered the bus for the 12 purpose of attempting to rescue Bernard 13 George from the officers, as futile as 14 that action may well have, in 15 hindsight, seemed to have been." 16 And then the judgment -- the essence of 17 the judgment is on page -- begins on page 13, it seems, 18 where the Justice considers whether or not the force was 19 excessive and finds as follows: 20 "The Defence has argued the force was 21 not excessive" -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, my -- I'm not 23 certain what My Friend -- if My Friend has a question for 24 the Witness, that's fair enough, but it's -- I don't 25 understand what reading simply the -- from the judgment
2011 of Justice -- Judge Graham has -- what question is being 2 put to the witness for the purpose of cross-examination. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I will -- I 4 intended -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 6 coming to the question now? 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was going to read 8 another two (2) sentences and then -- and then ask the 9 question, if I may. 10 So I -- I was going to just indicate the 11 judgment and then ask if that was the basis on which he 12 was acquitted. I -- I think it's important for the -- 13 for you, Mr. Commissioner, to know the basis on which Mr. 14 Cottrelle was acquitted. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 16 not sure if Mr. Cottrelle -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The judgment speaks -- 18 the judgment speaks for itself. And it's a judgment of 19 the judge as to the judge's findings at Mr. Cottrelle's 20 trial of which he was acquitted. Now, the -- if -- I -- 21 I don't understand how this Mr. Cottrelle can answer any 22 questions with respect the findings of the judge other 23 than perhaps was this a copy of the judgment. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he was 25 in the court and he heard it.
2021 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If you were in the 2 court and you heard it. It's the judge's Judgment and 3 not Mr. Cottrelle's judgment. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have the 5 judgment. We have the judgment. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- well I -- 7 I'm not sure that we do, sir. If we do have the 8 judgment, perhaps if the judgment would be entered as an 9 exhibit I would just ask -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I don't 11 know -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I would just ask 13 Mr. Cottrelle to verify that this as he understands an 14 accurate transcript of the judgment on that occasion then 15 we could enter it as an exhibit then. But one (1) way or 16 the other we should have that information in front of 17 you, Mr. Commissioner, I think you will understand. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well if we mark it as 19 an exhibit if My Friends want to -- no issue that the 20 document is the judgment of Justice Graham on -- at the 21 conclusion of the trial -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: May 26th -- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- May 26th, 1997. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 1997. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we can mark it as
2031 Exhibit 127, the Judgment. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That -- what 3 would be fine. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That's fine, sir. 5 I have no -- no quarrel with that. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's mark 7 it. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: And, sir, you're glancing at it. 11 This does accord with what you understood the judgment 12 was on that occasion, is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's mark 15 the Judgment of -- of Justice Graham an exhibit. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay? 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-127: Document No. 1004971 Judgment 20 of Justice Graham May 26/97, 21 Ontario Court, Provincial 22 Division, Youth Court, 23 Sarnia, Ontario 24 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So that's now
2041 Exhibit P-127. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-127 I 3 think. 127. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I therefore 5 won't read any more excerpts from it because we can all 6 read it at our leisure as part of the material before 7 this Inquiry. 8 And I should just thank you very much, 9 sir, for your evidence and for all you've done for Stoney 10 Point. Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. I think we're up to Ms. Tuck- 14 Jackson. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. Good afternoon, Mr. Cottrelle. 17 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: I'm Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm here 21 today, sir, on behalf of the OPP. 22 Q: I want to begin if I may with the 23 contact that you had with Mark Wright. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And in particular the comment, We do
2051 our talking with guns. All right? I want to start with 2 that. And I understand, sir, that you believe that Mark 3 Wright has attributed that comment to you. 4 Do I have that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Sir, I -- I hope that 7 what I'm about to say will -- will offer you a bit of 8 comfort because I can anticipate that Mark Wright will 9 testify and that he will not attribute that comment to 10 you, okay? 11 I want to ask you follow-up questions if I 12 can. I understand, sir, that during the course of 13 September the 5th and September the 6th, that you spoke 14 with Mark Wright on only one (1) occasion. 15 Do I have that correct? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: All right. And do I also understand 18 it to be correct that when you spoke with Mark Wright, 19 Les Kobayashi was present at the same time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right, good. Now -- I'm 22 wondering if I could ask My Friend, Mr. Millar, to put up 23 Document 2003980 and move to the handwritten notes of 24 Mark Wright for September the 5th at 12:12 p.m. And I 25 apologize to My Friends for not having provided formal
2061 notice of this, but to be quite candid, this literally 2 came to my attention during the course of this morning 3 examination. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: A moment's 8 indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: Now up on the screen, sir, we have 14 notebooks -- a notebook entry in relation to Mark Wright. 15 And this is for the date of September the 5th and I'm 16 particularly interested in an entry in the notebook for 17 the time 12:12 p.m. 18 And I anticipate, sir, we're going to hear 19 from Mark Wright, consistent with this notebook entry, 20 that he attended at the west entrance to the Park with 21 Les Kobayashi and another officer by the name of Sergeant 22 Seltzer (phonetic). 23 Now do you recall another man being 24 present during this conversation? 25 A: No.
2071 Q: Fair enough. 2 "Attempted to open a line of dialogue 3 with occupiers of Park with negative 4 results." 5 And as you've already told us, sir, during 6 the course of your conversation with Officer Wright, you 7 indicated to him that you didn't think any of the 8 occupiers would wish to talk to him further? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "A number of natives there but nobody 11 would engage in conversation. I asked 12 an individual to get Glen George..." 13 Thank you. 14 "...and tell him that I was available." 15 Now do you recall Officer Wright, and you 16 may not at this time, because it was a long time ago, 17 admittedly, but do you recall his asking you to get Glen 18 George -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: Fair enough. Possible that occurred, 21 though, and you just can't remember at this time? 22 A: No. There was no mention of any 23 names. 24 Q: No mention of any names? 25 A: No.
2081 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now we've moved forward to an entry 6 in Officer Wright's notebook, referable to September the 7 6th. And in particular I'm interested in the entry at 8 15:02 or 3:02 p.m. 9 And there's an indication, sir, that he 10 and a female officer by the name of Sergeant Eve 11 (phonetic), her name was Margaret Eve. Unfortunately 12 she's passed away, since that -- since that time. 13 They attend the west end of the Park, 14 attempt to open dialogue with a number of natives who 15 were present. 16 "I spoke to a fourteen (14) year old 17 native and asked him to contact Glen 18 George who I had spoken to weeks ago 19 when natives took over the built-up 20 area of CFB Ipperwash." 21 Now just pausing there for a moment. 22 You've already told us that at the time, you were sixteen 23 (16) not fourteen (14), correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You've told us that back in September
2091 of 1995 you were heavier than you were today, correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And just -- can you give us a ball 4 park, sir, how much you weigh today and how much you 5 likely weighed back then? 6 A: Today I'm approximately two-fifteen 7 (215), back then I was maybe two thirty-five (235), two 8 forty (240). 9 Q: All right. And you told us that you 10 haven't changed in height since that time, so what is 11 your height today, which reflects your height back then? 12 A: Six (6) three (3). 13 Q: So you were a six (6) foot three (3), 14 say two hundred and thirty-five (235), two hundred and 15 forty (240) pound individual? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Can you turn the page. 18 Now it goes on to reflect: 19 "Continued to wait for someone to 20 approach me and talk, did not go beyond 21 fence line for Park. Eventually black 22 coloured Camaro drove up to the fence 23 line." 24 And then what follows, sir, is a 25 conversation involving Officer Wright, and what appears
2101 to be a passenger from inside that black-coloured Camaro. 2 And I anticipate that we'll hear again, 3 consistent with these notes, that it was during the 4 course of that conversation that a passenger in that 5 Camaro said: 6 "We will do our talking with guns." 7 Now, again, just to clarify, and I'm sure 8 it's pretty obvious by this point, you were not in a 9 black-coloured Camaro talking to Officer Wright at 3:00 10 p.m. on September the 6th, were you? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. All right. So again, just to 13 make it very clear, during your exchange with Officer 14 Wright, which does appear to have taken place on 15 September the 5th, you were trying to convey to him, that 16 the occupiers were not interested in speaking with the 17 police? 18 A: As far as my knowledge, no. 19 Q: As far as your knowledge, they were 20 not interested, and that's what you were trying to 21 convey? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. I want to move on, if I 24 can, in respect of the incident between Stewart George 25 and Gerald George, that I understand you witnessed.
2111 And in particular, sir, I took interest in 2 your evidence this morning, that after Stewart George hit 3 Gerald George in the side of the head, and Gerald George 4 moved his car forward, you specifically heard him turn 5 and say to Stewart, You're a marked man? 6 A: Something along those lines, yes. 7 Q: Fair to say a threat to that effect? 8 A: Yeah, I would have took it as a 9 threat. 10 Q: Pardon? 11 A: I said, I would have took it as a 12 threat. 13 Q: Fair enough. And again, I appreciate 14 that a great deal of time was passed, you may not be able 15 to recall the exact words, but certainly what you heard 16 coming from Mr. George, Gerald George's mouth, was some 17 type of threat directed towards Stewart George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I trust, sir, that at the time 20 you overheard this comment, you were not under the 21 influence of alcohol? 22 A: No. 23 Q: So accordingly, your ability to 24 accurately take in what was going on in your midst, was 25 in no way adversely affected by alcohol?
2121 A: No. 2 Q: I'm also interested in an observation 3 that you made of Gerald George's car, not long after this 4 incident. You told us that when you were heading back to 5 the barracks from the Park, you noticed Gerald George's 6 car and it was parked -- was it actually in the 7 campground, off Army Camp Road? 8 A: Right inside the driveway. 9 Q: Right inside the driveway. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I was very interested in your 12 observation that the car was empty. Do I have that 13 correct? 14 A: As far as I could see, yeah. 15 Q: All right. So you did not see Gerald 16 George inside of it, as far as you could tell? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And you did not see any other male 19 adult in the car with Gerald George? 20 A: No, not that I remember. 21 Q: Pardon? 22 A: Not that I remember. 23 Q: Thank you. And I trust, having 24 regard to what happened, minutes before between Stewart 25 and Gerald, you looked with some interest towards that
2131 car? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Thank you. I want to move on to a 4 different area. 5 I trust, sir, that at no time on September 6 the 5th, did you observe a police officer within the 7 fenced in portion of the Park property? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And I trust also, sir, that on 10 September the 6th, at no time did you see a police 11 officer inside the fenced in portion of the Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And I also trust, sir, that at no 14 time did you see a police officer, on September the 5th, 15 attempt to gain entry into the fenced in portion of the 16 Park? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And furthermore, that would be the 19 same case in respect of September the 6th? 20 A: No, I never seen none. 21 Q: Thank you. The final area that I 22 want to canvas, you'll be very pleased to hear, is with 23 respect to some events that were isolated in time to the 24 late afternoon and early evening of September the 6th. 25 And there are three (3) events that I want to focus on.
2141 First of all, you've described this 2 incident involving Gerald George and Stewart George, 3 which we've heard occurred shortly before 8:00 p.m. that 4 night, does that time sound about right to you? 5 A: Yeah, around there. 6 Q: Okay. I trust, sir, that you would 7 agree with me that that incident was the first incident 8 which involved any type of physical altercation, between 9 an occupier and an individual who was not a police 10 officer, during the time frame of the Park occupation? 11 A: Would you rephrase that? 12 Q: Sure, it was a long question. I'm -- 13 I'm focussing solely on the period from the time the Park 14 was taken over late on September the 4th, to the end of 15 the day on September the 6th. 16 And what I'm suggesting to you, is that 17 during that time frame, the incident involving Gerald 18 George and Stewart George, was the only one (1) you 19 observed, where there was physical contact or some type 20 of altercation, between one (1) of the Park occupiers, 21 and somebody who was not a police officer? 22 A: Yes, I would say. 23 Q: Thank you. The second point. You 24 very candidly acknowledged that around the time of the 25 incident between Gerald George and Stewart George, you
2151 were in the parking lot, and you were also carrying a 2 bat? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, that 5 I can tell you rather, that we've heard some evidence 6 that in the hour or so just before this confrontation 7 between Gerald and Stewart, several occupiers were 8 observed in the parking lot, and some of those occupiers 9 were seen to have observed -- seen to -- to be holding 10 some type of stick or bat. 11 So I -- I can tell you we've already heard 12 that evidence? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And again, I'm going to suggest to 15 you, sir, that the presence of one (1) of the Park 16 occupiers outside of the fence, in the parking lot, armed 17 with a bat, that was something new for the evening of 18 September the 6th? 19 A: What, having a bat? 20 Q: Having a bat, but holding it outside 21 of the Park boundaries? 22 A: I don't really understand your 23 question. 24 Q: All right, that's fair. We know that 25 you and your fellow occupiers entered the Park late on
2161 September the 4th? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I gather what you're saying to me 4 is that there may have been times during the 4th, the 5th 5 and the 6th, that people had bats inside the Park, is 6 that fair? 7 A: Myself, yes. 8 Q: All right, fair enough. And you may 9 only be able to speak for yourself. My point is that the 10 first time you left the Park, during that two (2) day and 11 a bit occupation, the first time you left it with a bat 12 in hand was the evening of September the 6th, and be in 13 the parking lot, the sandy parking lot area? 14 A: I was up and down that road the whole 15 three (3) days. 16 Q: Holding a bat in your hand, wandering 17 around? 18 A: I believe so, yes. 19 Q: So, you were out on Army Camp Road, 20 wandering around with a bat in your hand? 21 A: From the sandy parking lot to the 22 main entrance down to Matheson Drive. 23 Q: So, your -- the area that you were in 24 was largely the sandy parking lot area? 25 A: Just along the side of the road,
2171 here, going down to the main entrance down to Matheson 2 Drive and then back up. 3 Q: And for the -- the record, you have 4 pointed out the sandy parking lot area and the sandy 5 shoulder as it extends southward on Army Camp Road? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you do this on 8 the 5th? 9 A: I -- I can't remember if I did or 10 not. 11 Q: Okay. Did you -- 12 A: But, I know on the 6th I did for 13 sure. 14 Q: All right. And that's what I'm 15 trying to focus on. I'm going to suggest to you the time 16 that you did it for sure on the 6th, it was towards the 17 late afternoon of the 6th; is that fair? 18 A: Early evening. 19 Q: Early evening. All right. Well, 20 that -- that's probably getting back to my original 21 point, which is the first time that you can definitively 22 remember being outside of the Park holding a baseball bat 23 was the evening of the 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Thank you. Now, we've heard that
2181 people other than yourself also were outside of the Park 2 in the early evening of the 6th, armed with either a 3 stick or a bat; do you recall seeing others at this time? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. We've also heard some 6 evidence about an incident that occurred an hour or a 7 little bit more before the confrontation between Stuart 8 George and Gerald George, whereby a car came around at 9 the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 10 Road, and the person in that car -- who we'll later hear, 11 it's no secret, was Mark Wright -- had an exchange with a 12 number of occupiers in the parking lot. 13 And they didn't seem to recognize, it 14 would appear -- and I anticipate we'll hear -- they 15 didn't recognize that Officer Wright was indeed an 16 officer. And they essentially waved him on and told him 17 that this was not his battle. 18 Do you recall seeing any incident like 19 that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Thank you. The third point that I 22 want to highlight, sir, is evidence about a decision to 23 move out women and children during the early evening of 24 September the 6th. And I tell you -- I can tell you, 25 rather, that we have heard evidence that not only had
2191 some made a decision that this was a wise thing to do 2 but, indeed, others had taken steps to actually move 3 women and children out of the Park. All right? 4 Now, I'd like to take you -- because, as I 5 understand your evidence, you don't have any recollection 6 of any of that? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: All right. In fairness to you, I'd 9 like to take you to a statement that I understand you 10 gave to the police on September the 7th, 1995, and it 11 appears at Tab 2 of one (1) of those binders that's in 12 front of you. 13 For the benefits of My Friend, it's 14 Document 1000289. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Do you have that before you, Mr. 19 Cottrelle? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: All right. There's a -- a typed copy 22 and then there appears to be a handwritten copy. And 23 this is the statement that you referred to earlier that 24 was taken by Officer Martin? 25 A: Yes.
2201 Q: On September the 7th, 1995? And I 2 trust, sir, that you'll agree with me that your memory as 3 to the events of September the 6th, 1995, would have been 4 much fresher in your memory on September the 7th, 1995, 5 than they would be today? 6 A: Probably. 7 Q: Probably. All right. I want to take 8 you, if I can, sir, we can do it in one (1) of two (2) 9 ways, in the typed version it appears at page 2, towards 10 the bottom of the page, and the reference that I'm 11 interested in, reads as follows: 12 "Carolyn George drove up to me in a 13 brown Chevette. She asked me to go 14 down to the Park store to pick up the 15 women and children and bring them back 16 to the front barracks. They were 17 afraid that the women and children 18 might get hurt, as the Police were in 19 their riot gear with their shields, 20 shin guards, helmets and gloves." 21 And you've already described for us, that 22 you had seen the Police dressed up in suits, one (1) 23 piece suits, earlier on in the evening -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- do I have that correct?
2211 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Now, reading that 3 passage, does that assist you in refreshing your memory 4 about this conversation that apparently happened between 5 yourself and Carolyn George? 6 A: Not really, but it's probably late -- 7 late evening, it'd have to be. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I know that my sisters were down at 10 the maintenance building. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: As far as how many people were down 13 at the Park store, I can't remember. 14 Q: That's fair. But I trust then, you 15 don't disagree with me, that you had this conversation as 16 is reflected in your statement with Carolyn George, and 17 that she did suggest to you out of concern for the safety 18 of women and children, that you assist in moving them out 19 of the Park? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Do you have any doubt that if this 22 indeed is what you told the Officer, that it represents 23 an accurate recollection, as you gave it at the time? 24 A: I'd have to say no. 25 Q: You'd have to say no? Why is that?
2221 A: Well, just sort of the fact that I 2 was sitting in the Strathroy Detachment for six (6) 3 hours -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: -- saying that I'm not allowed to get 6 out. My state of mind, I probably would have told that 7 Officer anything to get out of there. 8 And he didn't want to hear the rest of the 9 story anyway, so... 10 Q: But was this not part of the story 11 that you wanted to tell? 12 A: I'd have to agree with some of the 13 stuff in this statement, but for the most part I was just 14 telling them anything so I can leave. 15 Q: So, are you telling us, sir, that 16 what is reflected in this statement is untrue, or are you 17 telling us that you simply cannot recall at this time, 18 whether or not you had the conversation with Carolyn 19 George? 20 A: I can't recall having the 21 conversation. 22 Q: You can't recall having it? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. Well, I anticipate 25 perhaps we'll -- we can ask the same of -- of Carolyn
2231 George. 2 Thank you, sir, those are my questions. 3 A: You're welcome. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. Do you want to start, Mr. Roland, or should 6 we take a short break? Let's start? Okay. 7 We're going to try and finish by 4:30, 8 right? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cottrelle, I act 15 for the Ontario Provincial Police Association, I have a 16 number of questions for you. 17 I want to begin with some incidents 18 concerning the bus before September 6th, 1995. 19 First of all, you've told Mr. Millar this 20 morning about an incident that occurred on July 29, '95 21 when the bus was used to transport you and others into 22 the built-up area. 23 And what you told Mr. Millar this morning 24 was that you were a passenger on this bus and that it was 25 -- it was used to -- to transport you and others through
2241 -- breaking through a gate that was on the north side of 2 the built-up area as the bus travelled along the road 3 parallel to Army Camp Road in a southerly direction. 4 Is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that in the course of -- of -- of 7 breaking through the gate, I take it the gate -- the -- 8 the bus simply proceeded without stopping and simply 9 knocked the gate off its moorings? 10 A: As far as I remember, yes. 11 Q: Yes. And then as I hear your 12 evidence, the bus then proceeded to the -- into the 13 barracks and it went to -- sorry, the building -- one (1) 14 of the buildings - - the drill hall, I think it was. 15 Is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And Building 26 I think as you -- as 18 you were able to identify it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you were on the bus as it arrived 21 at -- at the drill hall, Building 26? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Where were you sitting on the bus? 24 How -- how far back? 25 A: I was at the very back.
2251 Q: At the very back? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And I anticipate there's 4 going to be evidence that the bus, as it proceeded to the 5 drill hall, rammed the front main cargo doors and was 6 partially embedded into the building. 7 Do you recall that? 8 A: No, I don't remember that. 9 Q: Okay. And that was -- for my 10 Friend's assistance -- that's in a report, I gather, 11 recently received from DND. It's Document 700244 in 12 which the report appears to indicate that the bus on this 13 occasion, rammed the main cargo doors and was partially 14 into the building. 15 And the next event that's reported in this 16 DND document -- see if you recall this -- is that in an 17 attempt to prevent the bus from reversing, a military 18 police officer positioned his vehicle -- it's described 19 as SMPIT -- ILTIS, that -- that he and another officer 20 were operating behind the bus to prevent the bus from -- 21 from reversing, so it would have been parked right at the 22 back of the bus, I gather, where you were sitting. 23 Do you remember that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And are you just saying you simply
2261 don't remember it or it couldn't have occurred? 2 A: I don't remember. 3 Q: All right. And then the report goes 4 on to say that the bus -- sorry, let me take you -- let 5 me just be accurate with the report -- that one (1) of 6 the two (2) officers exited the passenger side of the -- 7 of the military vehicle and as he was doing that, the bus 8 reversed out of the doorway, ramming the military 9 vehicle, narrowly missing the -- the MP and pushing the 10 vehicle sideways about fifteen (15) metres across the 11 parade square. 12 Do you remember that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Now, again, is this simply something 15 you don't remember or are you saying it simply didn't 16 occur? 17 A: I don't remember. 18 Q: It could have occurred? 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: Okay. And all this time, or at least 21 -- sorry, all this time, because you don't remember it, 22 but when did you leave the bus? Because you've told us 23 you were at the back of the bus. How long did you sit in 24 the back of the bus after the bus reached the drill hall? 25 A: Geez, I don't know. We got to the
2271 parade square from what I can remember, I was sitting on 2 there then Mps jumped on the bus and pepper-sprayed 3 everybody. 4 I'd say it was ten (10) minutes, fifteen 5 (15) minutes maybe. 6 Q: And did you exit the bus from the 7 emergency door at the rear or at the normal front 8 passenger exit? 9 A: Emergency door at the rear. 10 Q: Emergency door at the rear. And did 11 the other persons on the bus also exit from that door? 12 A: I don't remember. 13 Q: You don't remember. Now the report 14 goes on to say that an identified Native drove a stolen 15 forklift, crashed it through the doors of the drill hall 16 and drove towards the MPP attempting to run them down. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A: A little bit. 19 Q: Tell us what you recall. 20 A: All I remember is when I jumped out 21 of the back of the bus. I remember the forks going 22 through the garage door. 23 Q: The forklift? 24 A: Yeah. Well the -- just the front 25 forks.
2281 Q: Yes. 2 A: Lifted it up a little bit. 3 Q: Lifted up what? 4 A: The garage door. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And I'm not sure if it came out or -- 7 I can't remember. 8 Q: And do you know who was driving the 9 forklift? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Was it one of the occupiers? 12 A: I believe so. 13 Q: All right, let me ask you about 14 another incident involving the bus shortly before the one 15 we've just identified. The one we just identified was on 16 July 29, '95. The one I'm now going to take you to is an 17 incident that apparently occurred on June 23, '95. A 18 little over a month earlier. 19 And I think this is the one you were 20 referring to when you -- when you told Mr. Millar this 21 morning about an incident in which you and others knocked 22 down a set of signs with the bus down by the beach and 23 burned the signs. 24 This document, for My Friends benefits, is 25 another DND document recently received. It's number 700-
2291 003-05 and it's dated June 23, '95 and it speaks of an 2 incident that occurred on the beach area on July 23, '95 3 in which two (2) male natives were observed removing two 4 (2) large warning signs and loading them into a yellow 5 forty (40) passenger bus. 6 Now, do I hear your evidence correct this 7 morning that you were one of those two (2)? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it goes on: 10 "On completion of this, the Natives 11 then turned the bus towards the patrol 12 vehicle and drove toward it at a high 13 rate of speed." 14 Do you remember that? 15 A: It wasn't a high rate of speed. 16 Q: But you did drive towards the patrol 17 vehicle? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: The patrol vehicle backed into loose 20 sand at the last minute to avoid a collision. Is that 21 fair? 22 A: No, they didn't. 23 Q: Okay. You tell us what happened. 24 A: From what I remember we knocked the 25 signs over. We loaded them up and I think it was the
2301 Range Patrol, some grey truck or something. I knew it 2 was the MP's, pulled up. I can't remember if any words 3 were exchanged or not. We drove at them and they were 4 gone. They drove away real fast and just kept their 5 distance. 6 Q: Okay. Let me just -- because I don't 7 think we're saying much different. Let me just go on 8 with the report and see what you can agree with. It goes 9 on: 10 "The bus then turned and made a second 11 attempt to collide with the patrol 12 vehicle. The patrol vehicle then moved 13 to an area where the bus could not 14 negotiate through because of loose 15 sand." 16 Is that fair? Did you made a second 17 attempt to -- to collide with the -- with the vehicle? 18 A: No. After that, after we got -- 19 drove at the truck initially, they kept their distance, a 20 good two hundred (200) feet, where they knew that, like, 21 there was no way that bus would ever catch their car or 22 the trucks, so. They were up in the dunes for the first 23 part of the incident. 24 Q: Okay. Now, let me just go on. The 25 patrol vehicle then left the area around the end of the
2311 sand dune adjacent to the perimeter of the military 2 property. The bus went onto the public road and waited 3 for the patrol vehicle to cross. Do you remember doing 4 that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you go out to the public road at 7 that stage of -- 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: And it goes on: 10 "When one (1) of the natives left that 11 vehicle" -- 12 Here he's referring to the bus. 13 -- "and threw a large camp flashlight 14 at the patrol vehicle." 15 Do you remember doing that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you observe anybody doing that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: So, are you saying you don't remember 20 or that didn't happen? 21 A: I don't remember. 22 Q: It could have happened, you don't 23 remember? 24 A: I don't remember. 25
2321 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right. Let me take you to a 4 third incident involving the bus, two (2) days earlier, 5 on June 21, '95. This is again from a document provided 6 by DND. It's document 7000293. And it speaks to an 7 incident on -- actually two (2) incidents, one (1) on 8 June 21, '95 and one (1) on June 22, '95. Let's deal 9 with the one on June 21, '95. 10 It says that while on an outer perimeter 11 patrol in a police cruiser along Army Camp Road, one (1) 12 of the MP's saw the bus travelling on an interior road of 13 the Camp, parallel to the fence, at the same rate of 14 speed as his vehicle, one (1) of about five (5) 15 passengers on the bus threw a camera at the patrol 16 vehicle. 17 Were you part of that incident? 18 A: I don't remember anything about that. 19 Q: You don't remember that. Okay. On 20 June 22nd, the next day, the same document reports that 21 the bus entered the built-up area from the training area 22 -- the training area. And drove on roads throughout the 23 built-up area until the driver spotted an MP cruiser 24 driven by one (1) of the MP's on the parade square, 25 monitoring their actions, and attempted to ram or bump
2331 the patrol vehicle. 2 There were five (5) or six (6) young males 3 on the bus at this time who were not identified by the 4 patrol persons. The bus then proceeded towards the 5 training area while on -- one (1) of the occupants mooned 6 and shouted obscenities at the patrol. The bus then 7 turned towards the MP section officer -- or some 8 officers, and collided with a parked Iltis, knocking it 9 forward about ten (10) metres. 10 The bus then left the built-up area into 11 the training area. There was minor damage on the parking 12 brake and some scratches on the -- on the Iltis, which 13 was the MP's vehicle. 14 This -- so that to help you refresh your 15 memory -- apparently occurred just after midnight, at 16 thirty-six (36) minutes after midnight on June 22nd. 17 Were you one (1) of those five (5) or six (6) young males 18 on that bus? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You know nothing about that incident? 21 A: No. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm going to 23 have to take a break now. We're going to take a short 24 break. We'll make it ten (10) minutes. Is that all 25 right?
2341 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for ten (10) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 3:21 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 3:32 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 13 Q: Thank you. Mr. Commissioner, we now 14 have on the screen, Photo 901, which is in the OPP -- 15 Photo Brief, and it is a photo of the bus that we've been 16 talking about, the school bus, taken on July 29, 1995, at 17 the time that the bus was used, as we've heard, to 18 transport individuals into the built-up area to occupy 19 the area. 20 And you'll see on the back of the bus, 21 there's a blanket over the back and below the blanket on 22 the ground, I think it's visible in this photograph, it's 23 more visible in the -- in the one that we can see on the 24 -- on the computers themselves, glass collected on the 25 ground.
2351 Now, Mr. Cottrelle, you've told us that at 2 the time you were -- that this bus was used that day to 3 occupy the built-up area. You were at the back of the 4 bus. Do you recall the -- a window at the back of the 5 bus on that emergency door, breaking at the time? 6 A: No. 7 Q: You don't? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. And you can see, as we can, 10 that there's glass on the ground. Did you -- did you 11 then notice thereafter that a window at the bottom of the 12 emergency door at the back of the bus was broken? 13 A: No. 14 Q: You didn't notice that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. And so you can't tell us 17 how that window came to be broken? 18 A: No. 19 Q: For instance, that it was broken in 20 when it struck an MP vehicle as it backed into it? 21 A: Oh, I don't know. 22 Q: You don't know. Thank you. Now, we 23 know that you turned sixteen (16) years of age in March, 24 1995, and you were driving the bus on September 6th, '95, 25 and as I understood your evidence this morning, this
2361 wasn't the first time you had driven the bus? 2 A: No. 3 Q: When did you start driving the bus? 4 A: I guess I can't -- really can't 5 remember, somewhere in '94 maybe. 6 Q: So, when you were fifteen (15) years 7 old? 8 A: Yeah, fourteen (14), fifteen (15). 9 Q: Fourteen (14)? 10 A: Somewhere in there. 11 Q: And how many times had you driven the 12 bus before September 6, '95? Approximately? 13 A: I really can't say. 14 Q: More than ten (10) or less than ten 15 (10)? 16 A: I really don't know, to tell you the 17 truth. 18 Q: You don't know whether it was one (1) 19 or two (2) or a hundred, you mean? 20 A: Well, it wasn't a hundred, like, -- 21 Q: Sorry? 22 A: I -- I'd have to say, yeah, maybe 23 it's more than ten (10). 24 Q: More than ten (10)? 25 A: Yeah.
2371 Q: And who instructed you on how to 2 drive the bus? 3 A: Myself. 4 Q: You just simply learned it yourself? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: No one showed you anything? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. And was the bus there 9 simply available for you to drive whenever you wanted, or 10 did you have to get permission from anybody to drive the 11 bus? 12 A: No, it really -- it really didn't 13 move too much. 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: I said, it didn't move too much -- 16 Q: Oh, okay. I understand it didn't 17 move much, but you've told us you drove it more than ten 18 (10) times, could -- did -- when you drove it more than 19 ten (10) times, did you drive it simply on your own 20 accord without asking anybody, or did you first get some 21 permission from someone, to drive the bus? 22 A: No, I didn't have to get any 23 permission. 24 Q: So you could simply take the bus 25 whenever you wanted?
2381 A: Pretty much, yeah. 2 Q: And was that so of anybody else, that 3 it was simply available to anybody there who wanted to 4 drive it? That is any of the occupiers? 5 A: Oh, I don't know. 6 Q: You don't know? 7 A: I can only speak for myself. 8 Q: Well, did anybody tell you you could 9 simply take it any time you wanted? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Then how did you know you could take 12 it anytime you wanted? 13 A: We -- we just moved it from time to 14 time from campsite to campsite. 15 Q: I see. And who's we? Who are we 16 talking about? 17 A: Me and my cousins. 18 Q: All right. And were they -- these 19 are all occupiers? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, we've heard evidence from Marlin 22 Simon that on September the 6th, '95, he prepared the bus 23 at the maintenance shed, he had the bus at the 24 maintenance shed, he cleaned it. We've seen, I think, 25 photographs of him cleaning it.
2391 He I think fixed an alternator and 2 repaired a battery, gassed it up and testified that it 3 hadn't been running for about a month before September 4 6th, '95. 5 Is that something you were aware of? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you know that it had been prepped 8 at all, or prepared, ready for use? 9 A: No. 10 Q: On September 6th? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. Were you aware that it hadn't 13 been available for use because it wasn't running for 14 about a month before that? 15 A: I knew that the alternator was no 16 good on it. 17 Q: I see. Which means you knew it 18 wasn't running without an alternator, that's it not going 19 to run? 20 A: Oh, it'll run. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: It's just -- we'd have to boost it -- 23 Q: You have to boost it -- 24 A: -- all the time. 25 Q: -- you couldn't -- it wouldn't charge
2401 the battery? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. Now let me understand on 4 September 6th in the evening, you were, as I understand 5 it, down at the fence line at the Park, but had gone up 6 from that location immediately before the Police arrived, 7 in your car, up to the built up area, is that right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you -- and before you went up to 10 the built up area, was the bus located in the spot that 11 it was located when you used it later that evening? Was 12 it located in the same spot? 13 A: I don't even know, I can't remember. 14 Q: You don't know. All right. 15 When you came back from the built up area, 16 and you say you saw the Police down the road, can you 17 describe for us the location of the bus on -- what's the 18 number of that -- Exhibit 125, which is behind you? 19 Could you show us where the bus was 20 located when you arrived back from the built up area? 21 A: It wouldn't even be on that map. 22 Q: I see. It would be to the right of 23 the map? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And where was it in
2411 relation then to the -- to the fence, how far was it from 2 the fence that travels in a north/south direction? 3 A: Seventy-five (75) feet, eighty (80) 4 feet. 5 Q: I see, all right. And was it near 6 the store? 7 A: It would have been, well, yeah, right 8 in front of the store, I guess. 9 Q: In front of the store, all right. 10 And were there other vehicles next to it or near it? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: No. You don't know? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: All right. When you arrived back 15 then at that location, just as you say you saw the Police 16 down East Parkway Drive, there were cars I gather, closer 17 to the fence, along the fence line, right? 18 A: Well a couple of them, yeah. 19 Q: And they were pointed in a westerly 20 direction? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: In the direction of East Parkway 23 Drive? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: You can't remember. And -- and did
2421 you park your car in that area, near the -- near the 2 fence? 3 A: Yeah, I pulled it parallel with the 4 fence, I believe. 5 Q: Parallel with the fence, so facing 6 then -- 7 A: Facing the lake. 8 Q: -- facing north? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And why did you pull it 11 parallel to the fence? 12 A: I don't know, I just pulled up and 13 jumped out. There was no reason for me to park like 14 that. 15 Q: Right. And -- and where was -- where 16 did you park your car, if we can look on -- on Exhibit 17 125, can you tell us where your car was parked? 18 A: It was parked right in this area 19 here. 20 Q: Okay, so that's -- as we -- as we 21 move from the gate north along the fence line, there's 22 shown to be, it appears, a -- a clump of four (4) trees. 23 Is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you say it's about next to the
2431 tree, the second tree as we move from south to north? 2 A: In that approximate area, yes. 3 Q: Yes, all right. And where were the 4 other -- we've heard evidence that there were other 5 vehicles that were in that area with spotlights shining 6 at some stage, at least. 7 Did you see other vehicles along the fence 8 line? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And where they located as compared to 11 your car? 12 A: I don't know, they were kind of 13 scattered, but they'd be in the -- the general area, that 14 parking lot. 15 Q: The general area of the parking lot. 16 You're -- you're -- 17 A: I don't know the exact location of 18 where they are. 19 Q: Okay, but you're indicating east of 20 the fence in the area of the -- the gate and the 21 turnstile. Is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now, when you -- when you 24 arrived back, was the bus -- when you saw the bus next to 25 the store, was -- were the bus lights on?
2441 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: You can't remember if the headlights 3 were on or not? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And I gather with -- this is a 1975 6 vehicle, I think? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: I think that's what I saw somewhere. 9 It's -- it wasn't a new bus, in any event. I gather the 10 headlights -- or maybe you could tell me -- would operate 11 on that vehicle whether it was running or not running. 12 You didn't have to have the -- the -- the engine running 13 for the lights to work, did you? 14 A: No, I don't think so. 15 Q: So, whether the lights are on or not 16 doesn't tell you whether the engine's running? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No? And when you went to the bus to 19 drive it into the sandy parking lot and along East 20 Parkway Drive, I gather the bus wasn't running then, the 21 -- the motor wasn't running? 22 A: Actually it was. 23 Q: It was running? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I see. And so then it -- presumably,
2451 if it wasn't running when you arrived and it was running 2 a few minutes later when you ran back, someone turned it 3 on, did they? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: I see. But you say it was running 6 and so the key was in it and it was running? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And it -- it required a key to run, 9 didn't it? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. Now, you say that you got on 12 the bus and Leland followed you on the bus indicating 13 that he wanted to go for a ride with you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: We heard evidence from him that he 16 actually was on the bus, he says, before you got on the 17 bus? 18 A: No, I'm pretty sure that he jumped on 19 after me. 20 Q: His evidence, so that you'll -- 21 you'll appreciate this was that it -- his recollection 22 was after his -- his black pitbull was apparently kicked 23 or somehow hit by the police officers and yelped, that he 24 took the dog and went onto the bus, it appears, as a 25 place of safety or sanctuary and that it was moments
2461 later that you got on the bus. 2 A: No -- 3 Q: That's not your recollection? 4 A: No, not that -- not that I can 5 remember. I was pretty sure that he came on after I did. 6 Q: Are you pretty sure that someone came 7 on after you? 8 A: I knew it was Leland. 9 Q: I see. And if Leland says he got on 10 before, then can we conclude that someone else got on 11 after him? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No? Okay. So you say you're sure. 14 He says he went on before, you say you're sure he went on 15 after and you can't tell us that if it wasn't Leland that 16 came on after you, it was someone else? 17 A: The only ones on the bus were me and 18 Leland and his dog. 19 Q: Now, you've told us that -- you've 20 told us that you got -- you went to the bus, and I take 21 it then you ran some, what is it, seventy-five (75) feet 22 to the bus? Did you run or walk? 23 A: I just -- 24 Q: Or did -- 25 A: Or I ran, I believe.
2471 Q: Okay. Some seventy-five (75) feet to 2 the bus, and you got on the bus, and you say that the 3 reason you did that is someone said, "Get the bus"? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And that someone may have 6 been Elwood George or someone else? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: You don't know who it was? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. And -- and you said in a 11 statement dated October 12th, 1995, which is in, I think, 12 Tab 14 of your documents, sorry, Tab -- sorry, Tab 13 of 13 your documents, October 12th, and you turn to page, the 14 bottom of page 8: 15 "I just heard someone say, get that bus 16 out there, try to make a blockade, I 17 guess." 18 Now, the words, try to make a blockade I 19 guess, aren't in quotation marks, but do you recall 20 saying, try to make a blockade I guess? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And those are reported words that you 23 said in this interview. Do you know what you would have 24 meant if you had said that, what you were talking about, 25 make a blockade?
2481 A: No. 2 Q: All right. And then, and I'm 3 reminded, if you turn to the last page of the statement 4 given to the SIU, you signed and agreed that it was -- 5 that the contents are accurate. 6 And you did that on September 7, '97, 7 having reviewed the statement with the SIU; all right? 8 A: What page is that? 9 Q: Turn to the last page. That it 10 appears you reviewed this statement some two (2) years 11 later, with the SIU, and you agreed, you read it and 12 agreed that its contents were accurate. And about, very 13 bottom of the page, -- 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: -- last page. Do you see that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. So, you agreed in 1997 that 18 what you said in '95 was accurate, that is you said there 19 was, trying to make a blockade I guess. 20 Are you telling us you just don't remember 21 what that means today? 22 A: I don't -- no, I wouldn't know what I 23 would have -- would have meant by saying that. 24 Q: And then if you go over on the next 25 page, page 9, you say -- you were asked the question:
2491 "What was your intent when you were 2 coming out and you were driving in the 3 direction of the police officers?" 4 Your answer: 5 "I don't know, just kind of move them 6 back a little bit." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, you didn't say, when you were 10 asked what your intent was that it was to rescue Cecil 11 Bernard George. When asked the question in '95 and then 12 you reviewed it and again agreed in '97, that your intent 13 was to simply move them back a bit. 14 Is that fair? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And isn't it fair, Mr. Cottrelle, 17 that if your intent was to rescue Cecil Bernard George, 18 you would have said so, both in '95 and in '97? 19 A: Well, that would be part of it there 20 too because sure in heck I wasn't going to go out there 21 just myself and try to rescue him. 22 Q: Well, and what you said in -- in 23 those -- that statement in '95, confirmed by you in '97, 24 let me say to you, is consistent with what your father 25 said in the City Pulse interview on September 7, '95,
2501 which we have in the -- in the database, where he said 2 that the -- and when I asked, he said the purpose was to 3 push the police back, it was to retaliate, it was 4 retaliation. 5 Now, isn't that the intent of the bus? 6 A: I can't speak for what he says. 7 Q: Have you heard of the bus referred to 8 as the war bus? 9 A: No. 10 Q: You haven't. You -- you're not aware 11 that on a -- on a Passion Eye (phonetic) video interview, 12 David George described it as a war bus? 13 A: I never seen it. 14 Q: You never heard that expression? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Let's then, if we can, just review 17 what you did. You jumped on to the bus, you say, the bus 18 was running, was -- the engine was going. Did you turn 19 on the lights or were the lights on? Or did you leave 20 the lights off? 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: Okay. Do you remember where the 23 switch was for the lights? 24 A: To the left -- 25 Q: All right.
2511 A: -- on the control panel. 2 Q: All right. And you then -- did you 3 close the door to the bus? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And why did you do that? 6 A: Someone may jump on, cops. 7 Q: So, you didn't -- you didn't want the 8 police to be jumping on? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. And at that stage did you 11 know that the back window of the bus in the emergency 12 door was broken? 13 A: No, I didn't. 14 Q: You weren't aware of that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And you then drove -- it was, I take 17 it, pointed towards the East Park -- East Parkway; was 18 it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so you drove it straight ahead 21 towards the -- the gate? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And are you saying the 24 gate was -- was closed or open at that stage? 25 A: It was closed with a dumpster in
2521 front of it. 2 Q: I see. All right. And the dumpster, 3 I gather, was positioned slightly to the north part of 4 the gate; was it? 5 A: I can't remember. 6 Q: Well, when you -- when you came in 7 contact with the dumpster, with the bus, you -- you 8 pushed it off or it spun off to the north; didn't it? 9 A: Yeah. I -- I cut the wheel a little 10 bit. 11 Q: What do you mean, you cut the wheel? 12 A: To the right, to meet the front of 13 the bus and push the dumpster out, and then cut the wheel 14 back over. 15 Q: I see. So, you turned the wheel -- 16 as you were approaching the dumpster you turned the wheel 17 to the north? 18 A: Yeah. I was already pushing it out. 19 Q: I see. And so you came into contact 20 with the dumpster first? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And then you turned the wheel to the 23 north? 24 A: No. I came in contact with the 25 dumpster, pushed it through the gate, and the bus was
2531 already out the gate fully and the dumpster was still 2 being pushed, and then turned my wheel right and then 3 back to kind of push it out of the way. 4 Q: So the dumpster started on the inside 5 of the gate, on the Park side of the gate, and you pushed 6 the dumpster then through the gate? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you say breaking the gate with 9 the dumpster? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And pushed the dumpster out into the 12 parking lot, and turned your wheel to the north to have 13 it spin off to the north? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that cleared it for you to 16 proceed? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, in that process, did you come to 19 a halt at all or almost to a halt -- 20 A: I -- I stopped just -- just before I 21 hit the dumpster at the gate, just so it wasn't too much 22 of an impact. 23 Q: I see. All right. And that would 24 have been, then, you would have been at that stage, I 25 take it, quite close to the turnstile and to the
2541 fenceline? 2 A: Well, the gates went four (4) or five 3 (5) feet from the turnstile. 4 Q: Right. And how far was the dumpster 5 from the gate at the time you first came in contact with 6 the dumpster? When you slowed down, where -- what was 7 the distance between the western part of the dumpster, 8 the western -- most westerly edge of the dumpster and the 9 gate? What was that distance? 10 A: It was right up against the gate. 11 Q: A foot or two (2) or -- 12 A: It was right against the gate. 13 Q: Touching the gate? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now there's -- I anticipate 16 there's going to be some evidence from a police officer 17 that at that stage he saw two (2) individuals get on the 18 bus at the time that you say you came to a stop or almost 19 to a stop to come in contact with the dumpster. The 20 police saw two (2) individuals get on the bus. 21 What do you say about that? 22 A: Nobody else was on the bus. 23 Q: Nobody got on the bus as you stopped 24 or almost stopped it at that stage? 25 A: No.
2551 Q: Let me ask you if I could about your 2 speed of the bus because you said that you thought -- I 3 think you told Mr. Millar you thought you might have been 4 ten (10) kilometres an hour. 5 A: Yeah, ten (10) to fifteen (15). 6 Q: Ten (10) to fifteen (15)? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I think at the -- at your trial 9 you said that you were going ten (10) to twenty (20) 10 kilometres. 11 A: Well somewhere in there. 12 Q: And that you got -- there was -- 13 there was a very low gear to the bus? 14 A: Yeah, the first three (3) gears are 15 very low. 16 Q: It was a very low gear and then 17 there's gear one, gear two (2) and so on? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And that you -- and going along 20 through the sandy parking lot and onto East Parkway, you 21 got up to the third forward gear? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: I believe so. 25 Q: And so you -- what you were trying to
2561 do is accelerate the bus? 2 A: No, not really. 3 Q: Well if you wanted not to accelerate 4 the bus why wouldn't you simply stayed in the low gear? 5 A: First and second gear. I was like 6 second gear from just getting onto the pavement. I don't 7 know. 8 Q: Don't -- don't you move up to the 9 gears to accelerate? 10 A: Yeah. I'd imagine you would. 11 Q: Yes. That's why you have gears isn't 12 it? 13 A: Pardon me? 14 Q: That's why -- that's why a standard 15 transmission is geared so that you can -- you can 16 accelerate the vehicle having it travel at a higher speed 17 progressively through the gears. 18 A: Well I didn't want to go too far so. 19 Q: Now you say the last time that you 20 saw Cecil Bernard George was when he was in -- I think 21 you marked it on Exhibit 125 with a 5, that location. 22 Right? 23 A: Yeah, approximate area. 24 Q: Yeah. And -- and you saw him in that 25 location before you went to the bus, right?
2571 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. And you say in that location 3 he was surrounded by officers with shields? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it was the officers with -- that 6 were with shields, holding shields that we're dealing 7 with? 8 A: Yes, I believe so. 9 Q: And do I have it then, from that 10 moment onward you didn't actually see Cecil Bernard 11 George? 12 That was the last time you saw him? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right let me move if I could to 15 your -- some other matters. Let me move to your -- the - 16 - your arrest chronology, all right, if I could? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, we have it in the database, and 21 we -- and I expect therefore the evidence is going to be 22 from the police officers who were involved with you in 23 your arrest chronology, that first of all, it was a 24 Constable Boone (phonetic), who accompanied you in the 25 ambulance to the Strathroy Hospital from Highway 21 and
2581 Army Camp Road. 2 And his evidence will be, we understand, 3 that he spoke to you during the time that he was with you 4 travelling in the ambulance, and that he informed you 5 that you were arrested for mischief. And advised of your 6 rights to counsel. Do you recall that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And he's apparently going to testify 9 that he -- that you said you understood, and when asked 10 if you wished to call a lawyer, you replied, well, 11 obviously I can't now. And he is going to say that 12 because you were a young offender, he advised you of a 13 right to have a parent, guardian or other responsible 14 adult present during any questioning, and you replied, 15 Yeah. 16 Now, do you recall that? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: Then at the hospital, we pick it up 19 with Constable Carolyn Kennedy (phonetic). Do you 20 remember a female constable in the hospital room with 21 you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And her statement, for My Friends, 24 it's 1002152, picks it up at 2:26 a.m., on the 7th of 25 September, that's next -- early morning hours. And she
2591 says -- will say, we know from her statement, that at 2 about three o'clock, Ron, Reg, Bob and Warren George 3 visited you; that's 3:00 a.m. Do you recall that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And they informed her 6 that they were your cousins? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that after a brief conversation 9 they left? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Then she indicates that at 4:23 a.m. 12 the Ident Officer, that I think you've referred to, 13 Officer Evans (phonetic), attended at your room to test 14 for gunshot residue. 15 And Constable Carolyn Kennedy's statement 16 indicates that she observed you consent to the test. Do 17 you recall that? 18 A: No, I was sleeping. 19 Q: And she goes on to say that your left 20 hand was tested and your right hand was bandaged. Do you 21 recall that? 22 A: I don't believe I had bandages on my 23 right hand. 24 Q: All right. Ident Officer Evans, in 25 his statement, which is Document 1004438, says that at
2601 the same time, at 4:24 a.m., he attended at your hospital 2 room, where you agreed to a hand residue examination, but 3 due to an injury to the right hand, only the left hand 4 was dabbed. Do you recall that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. 7 A: I just remember them taken off in the 8 room after I woke up? 9 Q: I'm sorry? 10 A: I said I just remember them taken off 11 after I woke up. 12 Q: All right. Shortly thereafter, 13 Constable Kennedy indicates that you were visited -- this 14 is at 4:37 a.m., by your mother and grandmother. 15 Do you remember that? 16 A: No, I can't remember. 17 Q: That would be about twenty to 5:00 in 18 the morning. 19 A: Maybe. I don't know. 20 Q: Then later that morning at about, 21 well actually it's after lunch, 12:21, you made two (2) 22 telephone calls from the hospital room. 23 Do you remember that? 24 A: I might have. I don't know. 25 Q: You don't remember making telephone
2611 calls? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Okay then we pick up the narrative of 8 your -- of your custody that day, with Acting Sergeant 9 Michael Harwood of the OPP. I'll give you the document - 10 - I'll give you the document number -- it's 1000323. 11 And he says that about 4:25 p.m. at page 8 12 that he entered your room and took possession of your 13 effects. You advised you were able to walk and he left 14 the room with you at about 4:31 accompanied by other 15 officers and you were taken to the rear of the hospital 16 and in a police cruiser from the hospital you were taken 17 to the Strathroy OPP Detachment. 18 Do you recall that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And then there was, as 23 we'll hear from the officers, interrogation and statement 24 taking of you by the OPP and by -- and the SIU also 25 visited you at the -- at the Strathroy Detachment.
2621 Do you recall that, that day? 2 A: The hospital. 3 Q: And at the detachment? 4 A: No, I don't -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- remember the detachment. 7 Q: And -- and the police, at you 8 request, attempted to cont -- contact Ronald George, your 9 lawyer? Or at least you requested them to do so and they 10 said they would and -- and then informed you they 11 couldn't reach him. Do you remember that? 12 A: That must have been later. 13 Q: This was in the detachment before you 14 went back to the hospital for the photographs. 15 A: No, I don't remember them saying 16 that. 17 Q: And do -- do you remember in that 18 period of time that you requested to speak to your mother 19 and they -- the police -- you gave them a number and 20 they sought to reach your mother and they told you they 21 left a message with one (1) of your sisters? Remember 22 them saying that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you remember what -- that you 25 asked for a -- to -- to speak to another lawyer and a
2631 telephone book was brought to you and you were -- 2 requested if you wanted to pick a lawyer out of the 3 Yellow Pages? Do you remember that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And then, do you remember 6 about nine o'clock that you left the Strathroy Detachment 7 of the OPP and went to the hospital, back to the 8 hospital? 9 A: No, I can't say. I don't remember. 10 Q: Do you remember going back to the 11 hospital for the purpose of having photographs taken? 12 A: I remember the photographs. I just - 13 - I don't remember the timeline. 14 Q: All right. Do you remember that they 15 -- you were -- whatever time it was -- 16 A: I, yeah, I remember -- 17 Q: -- that you came back to the hospital 18 to have those taken? 19 A: Yeah, I remember having the 20 photographs taken. 21 Q: At the hospital? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now, I gather those are 24 the photographs we saw this morning? 25 A: Yes.
2641 Q: All right. And then you were taken 2 back to the Strathroy OPP Detachment, after the 3 photographs were taken? 4 A: Yes, unfortunately. 5 Q: And by that time, Ronald George had 6 shown up, and you spoke to him? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And shortly after that you were 9 released on condition? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, let me go back just to cover of 16 a few other things, and then we'll conclude my 17 Examination. I just want to cover off some other things 18 that you raised in your Examination. 19 One (1) was the -- the picnic table 20 incident on September the 5th. We've heard evidence from 21 a number of occupiers who were there, that there were -- 22 there was either one (1) police cruiser pushing one (1) 23 table, or I think the highest it's got is two (2) police 24 cruisers pushing two (2) tables, in that incident. 25 Now, are you saying there were more than
2651 two (2) police cruisers pushing more than two (2) tables? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: All right. And how many police 4 cruisers do you say were pushing, how many tables? 5 A: Three (3) or four (4). 6 Q: Three (3) or four (4) police 7 cruisers -- 8 A: Cruisers. 9 Q: -- pushing three (3) or four (4) 10 tables? 11 A: There was quite a few tables out 12 there. 13 Q: All right. And that's, and just so 14 you understand, that's not going to be evidence of the 15 police, that there was one (1) police cruiser pushing one 16 (1) table. 17 Now, we've also heard evidence, Mr. 18 Cottrelle, that when that occurred when the -- a police 19 cruiser pushed a table, that some of the occupiers lifted 20 the police cruiser up onto the hood of the cruiser. Do 21 you remember that? 22 A: Lifted a cruiser on a cruiser? 23 Q: Sorry, the table, sorry, it's really 24 getting late -- it's getting late. Lifted -- these are 25 phenomenally strong occupiers. Lifted the table, one (1)
2661 of the tables that was being pushed by the cruiser, onto 2 the hood of the cruiser. Do you remember that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And if you were there and you saw 5 this event, you would have seen that, wouldn't you? 6 A: More than likely, yeah. 7 Q: Yeah. It's something that's pretty 8 hard to miss, isn't it? 9 A: I don't know. I almost got run over 10 myself, so... 11 Q: So -- and nobody has testified yet, 12 apart from you, that any tables were pushed twenty (20) 13 to thirty (30) feet by a cruiser. 14 Are you sure that the tables were pushed 15 that distance? 16 A: No, that ain't too far; twenty (20) 17 feet. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you were asked by Mr. 19 Rosenthal, about the officer that attended on September 20 the 5th, '95 at the fence, and you say, looked like, that 21 spoke to Dudley George and looked like Ken Deane. 22 A: It was Ken Deane. 23 Q: Well, the evidence is going to be, 24 let me just tell you, Mr. Cottrelle, that Ken Deane 25 wasn't anywhere in that vicinity on September the 5th,
2671 wasn't even around. He was at Pinery Park. 2 The TRU Team weren't there. He was a 3 member of the TRU Team and the TRU Team weren't there on 4 September the 5th. So, yeah, he may have been someone 5 that looked like Ken Deane, right? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Hmm? 8 A: No. Well, was he -- how were you so 9 -- when -- I'm going to tell you that the evidence is 10 going to be, and there's never, in all of the proceedings 11 that have gone on, including the Ken Deane trial, there's 12 never been a suggestion that Ken Deane, in -- in 13 evidence, that Ken Deane was there on September the 5th. 14 Now, how can you be so certain that this 15 was Ken Deane? 16 A: I know what I saw. 17 Q: I see. And you've never been 18 mistaken, and where one (1) police officer or one (1) 19 individual might look like another individual? 20 A: Not that night. 21 Q: And this was at night. It was dark, 22 right? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And you were -- the only light was 25 what, the fire inside the Park fence? It's the only
2681 source of light? 2 A: Yeah, I was pretty close to the fire 3 too. 4 Q: Yeah. And there were a -- a number 5 of Officers and a number of occupiers there? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And there was a lot of activity and 8 movement? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, you told Mr. Millar on the 6th 15 of September that you gathered, or you might have 16 gathered sticks and rocks and moved them to along the 17 fence line, right? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And I -- I assume the reason you did 20 this is you were anticipating that you were going to need 21 them for the purposes of a fight, right? 22 A: Yeah, defending ourselves. 23 Q: Yeah, these were weapons that you 24 were going to use for the purposes of fighting off 25 somebody?
2691 A: Defending our territory, yes. 2 Q: Right, yeah. And at that stage on 3 September the 6th, I gather that it might have been the 4 police, or it might have been cottagers in your mind? 5 A: Police. 6 Q: Police, not the cottagers? 7 A: No? 8 Q: No. 9 A: They're being evacuated. 10 Q: I see. And you hadn't heard that 11 there was some -- some concern that a group of cottagers 12 might come down and show their displeasure about the 13 occupation of the Park? 14 A: No, never entered my mind, never 15 thought about it. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And when you say you set up 20 checkpoints at the various locations of the fires, the 21 main entrance, Matheson Drive, the beach and the gate by 22 the parking lot, sandy parking lot, you say that was to 23 keep people out of the park? 24 A: Yeah, keep it lit around there, keep 25 people out.
2701 Q: Now, and what people are we talking 2 about? 3 A: Police. 4 Q: Only Police? 5 A: They were -- they were the only ones 6 around. 7 Q: I see. But you weren't going to let 8 anybody into -- into the Park, were you, whether it was 9 Police or others, apart from the occupiers? 10 A: I don't know, I... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, you told Mr. Millar that this 15 was a peaceful occupation, that there was no need, to use 16 your words, for any kind of violence whatsoever, right? 17 But isn't it so, Mr. Cottrelle, that you 18 were preparing for violence, weren't you? You were 19 collecting stones -- 20 A: Yeah, I believe, on the 6th. 21 Q: -- you were carrying around a bat? 22 A: Late evening -- late evening of the 23 6th. 24 Q: You were -- you were preparing for 25 violence?
2711 A: Well, we heard about a Court 2 injunction and police buildup, so what was I supposed to 3 do? 4 Q: Well, and this wasn't going to be the 5 first incidence of violence was it? Your father had 6 smashed the police car window; isn't that violent? 7 A: I don't know, it depends. 8 Q: You had thrown rocks at the Police 9 Officers when they were there to move the picnic tables? 10 A: After I got -- almost got ran over, 11 yes. 12 Q: So, you were prepare -- quite 13 prepared to resort to violence? 14 A: If it was brought upon us first. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I would have asked you about your 19 medical reports but I'm told by Mr. Millar, Commission 20 Counsel, that your medical reports from the Strathroy 21 Hospital will be put into evidence through the medical 22 witnesses. 23 He had asked you some questions about what 24 you were told by the people who -- medical people who 25 treated you. And rather than prolong this afternoon,
2721 since Mr. Millar is going to put those records in through 2 the medical people, I'll leave that. 3 Now, you told Mr. Millar this morning that 4 after you were released from the Strathroy Hospital, it 5 was two (2) or three (3) months before you -- you left 6 the military built-up area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Let me tell you that there is in the 9 database -- and I assume if necessary there will be 10 evidence of this -- it's Document 1002201, being the 11 statement of an OPP Constable Wondergem, W-O-N-D-E-R-G-E- 12 M, that he stopped you and two (2) others in a dark blue 13 Ford Taurus at 7:35 a.m. on October 2, 1995, less than a 14 month after the incident; that you were accompanied by 15 Kenneth Jason Noah (phonetic) and Marlin Simon, and that 16 he stopped you at Goosemarsh (phonetic) Trail at Museum 17 Road. 18 Do you remember that? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: And you were asked to identify 21 yourself, and you did? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You were in the passenger seat of the 24 vehicle? 25 A: Yes.
2731 Q: And a .22 rifle was found in the back 2 of the vehicle? 3 A: I believe so. 4 Q: And there was, as well, a box of .22 5 Magnum shells; do you recall that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. And that you were given - 8 - you and the other two (2) were given some -- Part 3 9 summonses, charged with unlawful hunt at night and 10 unlawful possession of a firearm at night; do you recall 11 that? 12 A: I believe so. 13 Q: Now, that wasn't on -- that's not on 14 the Ipperwash Base; is it? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. So, when you told Mr. Millar 17 that it was two (2) or three (3) months before you left 18 the base, that wasn't right; was it? 19 A: About two (2) months, well, I don't 20 know. 21 Q: It was less than -- it was less than 22 a month? This incident was less than a month after your 23 release from the Strathroy Hospital; right? 24 A: Yeah. 25
2741 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, you also told Mr. Millar that 4 you hadn't either hunted or -- or acted as a runner or 5 hound before 1996. I take it in this incident in October 6 '95 you were either hunting or acting as a -- 7 A: No, I -- 8 Q: -- as a runner; weren't you? 9 A: -- got my dates mixed up, there. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: I figured he was talking prior to the 12 shooting. 13 Q: I see. Okay. Thank you, Mr. 14 Cottrelle. Those are my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. Roland. 17 I think Jennifer McAleer. I would like to 18 try to finish this afternoon if it's possible, but I 19 don't want to rush you. So just -- if we can't finish, 20 we'll put it over. But let's -- let's try. 21 MS. JENNIFER McALEER: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. I assume that I have about fifteen (15) 23 minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 And then we just have Mr. O'Marra. So, it's just
2751 possible that we -- if we stay 'til 5:00 we might be -- 2 we might be able to finish. So, I think it's worth -- 3 worth trying. Go ahead. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cottrelle. 7 A: Hi. 8 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer. And I'm 9 one (1) of the lawyers who acting for the former Premier, 10 Mike Harris. I have five (5) areas that I would like to 11 ask you questions about very briefly this afternoon. 12 The first area relates to the occupation 13 of the barracks on July 29th, 1995. You indicated that 14 you had not been a part of any prior discussions about 15 taking over the Army Base; is that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And in fact you had been having a 18 nap, I think, on the bus down by the beach when it was 19 boarded by a number of people, is that -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: That's correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I think you estimated that there 24 were approximately six (6) people between the ages of 25 eleven (11) and sixteen (16) years old?
2761 A: Yeah, somewhere in there, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Now you also indicated to Mr. 3 Millar that you saw a number of people outside the bus 4 standing on the beach; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now those people that you saw 7 standing outside the bus on the beach, were those adults 8 or were those other young people? 9 A: All age range -- age ranges. 10 Q: Okay. How many people do you recall 11 seeing standing outside on the beach? 12 A: I can't really remember. 13 Q: Were there more than five (5)? 14 A: I can't remember. 15 Q: Was it more than one (1) person? 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: You can't recall if it was more than 18 one (1) person or -- 19 A: Well it was more than one (1) but the 20 actual number -- 21 Q: Okay. Well I -- I don't need the 22 actual number. I'm looking for a general -- 23 A: I'd say more than five (5). 24 Q: Less than ten (10)? 25 A: More than -- yeah.
2771 Q: Sorry, more than ten (10) or less? 2 A: More than five (5). I really don't 3 know to tell you the truth. 4 Q: Okay. And we also heard some 5 evidence that one (1) of the reasons the bus was sent 6 into the occupied -- or I should say the built-up area of 7 the barracks, was to act as a diversion while other 8 people came into the built-up area from another 9 direction. 10 Did you hear anybody discussing using the 11 bus as a diversionary tactic that day? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you hear anybody talking about 14 using the bus as a diversionary tactic after the fact? 15 A: No. 16 Q: The second area that I want to ask 17 you some questions about relates to your evidence 18 regarding knowledge or burial sites or burial grounds in 19 the Provincial Park. You indicated that your 20 grandfather, that's Abraham George I believe -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- had told you at some point that 23 there were burial sites in the Provincial Park on the 24 road that runs by the maintenance shed. 25 Do I have your evidence correct?
2781 A: Yes. 2 Q: When did your grandfather tell you 3 that? 4 A: I don't know the exact date. It was 5 prior -- 6 Q: Sorry, it was prior to what? 7 A: September '95. 8 Q: Okay. And when your grandfather told 9 you this, did he tell you this in private or is that 10 something that he openly discussed with you in front of 11 other people? 12 A: It's common knowledge to our family. 13 Q: Okay. And when you say throughout 14 your family, do you -- do you mean your immediate family, 15 you and your mother and your father and your siblings? 16 Or do you mean among your cousins as well? 17 A: I imagine my cousins too. 18 Q: And was that something that you had 19 discussed with your cousins prior to September of 1995? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Is that something you had discussed 22 with your parents prior to September of 1995? 23 A: Maybe. 24 Q: You don't recall? 25 A: No, I don't recall.
2791 Q: Okay. Well see, you are the first 2 witness to come forward and indicate that you had 3 specific information about burial sites on the road in 4 front of the maintenance shed. No other witness has 5 testified to that to date. 6 So I -- I want to be fair to you, are you 7 absolutely certain that your grandfather specifically 8 referred to that area? 9 A: Yes. There's no question. 10 Q: And again that's something you had 11 discussed with your family with respect to that area? 12 A: It was common knowledge. 13 Q: Now you also testified that your 14 grandfather had indicated that he wished that area to be 15 blocked off because it was disrespectful; is that 16 correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And is that something that he had 19 told you before September of 1995? 20 A: No, after. 21 Q: When did he tell you that? 22 A: I can't remember. 23 Q: Was it after the events of September 24 6th, 1995? 25 A: Yes.
2801 Q: And do you recall when that area was, 2 in fact, blocked off? 3 A: It wasn't too long after, I don't 4 know. 5 Q: When -- when you say not too long 6 after, do you mean a month after or do you mean within 7 the year? 8 A: I don't know. I don't know, I can't 9 remember what day it was or month, but I know it was -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- it was pretty close to -- 12 Q: David George has testified about the 13 occupiers inviting a Medicine Man to come onto the 14 Provincial Park, in order to determine where the burial 15 sites were. Are you aware of that Medicine Man coming on 16 to the Provincial Park lands? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't know anything about that? 19 A: No, I know that certainly for Dudley, 20 out where he was shot, but as far as a Medicine Man 21 looking for burial sites, I have no knowledge of it. 22 Q: Now the third area that I want to 23 talk to you about, relates to the events that took forth 24 -- sorry that took place on September 4th, when you and 25 your group took over the Provincial Park.
2811 Now, you testified that you saw your 2 father, Roderick George, break the cruiser window; that's 3 correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you also testified that you saw 6 Wesley, who I believe is a cousin of yours, throwing 7 flares into a circle of police officers? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Is that -- sorry, that's -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, after either one (1) of these 12 incidents, did you overhear any discussion amongst the 13 occupiers, as to whether or not breaking the cruiser 14 window or throwing flares into a circle of Police 15 Officers, was in keeping with the peaceful objectives of 16 the occupiers? 17 A: No, I can't remember, I can't recall. 18 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 19 those events after they took place? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. I then want to ask you about 22 the injunction. And you testified that you heard people 23 in the Provincial Park talking about the possibility of a 24 Court injunction? 25 A: Heard it on the radio first.
2821 Q: Okay. Did you see it on television 2 as well? 3 A: I don't remember. 4 Q: And when you heard it on the radio, 5 were you alone, or were there others with you? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: You don't -- 8 A: I think -- no, I can't remember. 9 Q: Okay. So you hear it on the radio, 10 and then you overhear people talking about it in the 11 Provincial Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, do you recall who was talking 14 about it? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Was that also something that was 17 common knowledge among the occupiers? 18 A: I imagine everybody knew about it, it 19 was all over the radio. 20 Q: And did you hear it more than once on 21 the radio? 22 A: During that one (1) day on the 4th or 23 5th, yeah, it was on there quite a bit. 24 Q: Okay. But do you actually remember 25 speaking to anybody about --
2831 A: No. 2 Q: -- that? You don't? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now you indicated that you didn't 5 have any concerns about the possibility of a Court 6 injunction. Did anybody else voice any concern to you 7 about the possibility of a Court injunction? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did any of the occupiers indicate 10 that they wanted an opportunity to respond to the Court 11 injunction? 12 A: No, I don't remember anybody talking 13 about that. 14 Q: You don't remember anybody talking 15 about responding to the Court injunction? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, the last thing I want to ask you 18 about relates to the purpose of taking over the 19 Provincial Park. 20 Now, as I understand it, as far as you're 21 concerned, one (1) of the purposes of taking over the 22 Provincial Park was because your grandfather had told you 23 there were sacred burial sites in the Provincial Park; is 24 that correct? 25 A: Yes.
2841 Q: And you were of the view that 2 permitting the Park to be used as a Provincial Park where 3 people were camping and picnicking, was, in some way, 4 disrespectful to the burial sites in the Provincial Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And the way -- and the manner that it 8 was taken too, was not right at all. 9 Q: The manner in which the land -- 10 A: Was -- or how would you say it? 11 Taken by the Government and used. 12 Q: So you're talking about a long time 13 ago -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- before it became a Provincial 16 Park? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Now, I understand, Mr. 19 Cottrelle, that a rock concert was held in the Provincial 20 Park in 1997; is that correct? 21 A: Not a rock concert. 22 Q: Well, what was it? 23 A: Just a couple of bands, friends 24 getting together. 25 Q: I'm sorry, you have to speak up.
2851 A: I said, a couple of bands and some 2 friends getting together. 3 Q: Some friends getting together? Now, 4 were these bands that were made up, of the occupiers or 5 were these outside bands that were invited in? 6 A: Outside bands. It was on the north 7 end. 8 Q: The north end of the Provincial Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So, close to the Lake? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And was it on the east side or 13 the west side of the Park? 14 A: It would be north -- northwest, or 15 northeast. 16 Q: Okay. Now how many bands were there 17 in 1997? 18 A: I can't remember. Around three (3) 19 or four (4) maybe. 20 Q: And did this concert last more than 21 one (1) day? 22 A: Two (2) -- for the weekend, I 23 believe. 24 Q: Sorry? 25 A: For the weekend, I believe.
2861 Q: So would that mean Friday, Saturday, 2 Sunday? 3 A: Saturday -- Saturday, Sunday. 4 Q: And how many people attended this 5 rock concert? 6 A: I can't even remember. 7 Q: Give me an estimate. 8 A: Forty (40). 9 Q: Was that forty (40) people each day? 10 A: Altogether, I believe. 11 Q: Okay. And was it only the people 12 that were occupying the Provincial Park that attended, or 13 did other people from outside the Park come to the 14 concert? 15 A: Other people, their friends, family. 16 Q: People from Kettle Point? 17 A: Oh, I don't know. 18 Q: People from other reserves? 19 A: Yeah, I'd imagine so. 20 Q: Was that concert advertised? 21 A: Just word of mouth. 22 Q: Word of mouth. Was there a concert 23 the following year in 1998? 24 A: I don't know, I can't remember. I 25 know there was two (2) right in a row there, so...
2871 Q: Well, do you recall more than one (1) 2 concert? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: Okay. And the second concert, was it 5 also a weekend-long rock concert? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: And do you recall how many bands 8 participated in that concert? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And again, that took place in the 11 Provincial Park? 12 A: North end. 13 Q: Same place? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how many people attended that 16 rock concert? 17 A: I can't say, I don't know. 18 Q: Was it more than -- 19 A: About the same amount, so forty (40), 20 fifty (50) people. 21 Q: Okay. And was that concert 22 advertised? 23 A: Word of mouth. 24 Q: I can indicate that there is a 25 document in the production. Perhaps Mr. Millar would be
2881 so kind as to put it up, 2000930. And I apologize for 2 not giving My Friends prior notice to this, but it only 3 came to our attention this afternoon. It's at page 6 of 4 nine (9) pages. 5 Now, Mr. Cottrelle, what Mr. Millar has 6 put on the overhead for us, is what I understand to be a 7 pamphlet advertising the Aazhoodena Renegade Jamboree. 8 Have you seen that before? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And under, I'm sorry, just 11 above the word Aazhoodena, it says, In the Ex-Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park; do you see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And then below the word 15 Aazhoodena, it says, 1998 Second Annual; do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, does that help refresh your 18 memory as to when the second of these concerts took 19 place? 20 A: Yes, it does. 21 Q: So we can agree it was in 1998? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And then as we look further 24 down the pamphlet, it says, Friday only Thundermug 25 (phonetic). What is Thundermug?
2891 A: It was a band that played there. 2 Q: Okay. Is that a rock band? 3 A: Yeah, I'd say that they are. 4 Q: Okay. So they were only playing on 5 Friday and then as we look further down, I think that's a 6 listing of a number of other rock bands; is -- am I 7 correct? 8 A: Yes, from different Reserves. 9 Q: Okay. And then in the far right-hand 10 corner, we see, nineteen (19), twenty (20) and twenty-one 11 (21). It's my understanding that that relates to the 12 dates, June 19th, 20, and 21st of 1998. Does that help 13 further refresh your memory? 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. If that could be marked as our 18 next exhibit, please. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-128. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 128. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-128 Pamphlet Advertising the 23 Aazhoodena Renegade Jamboree. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER McALEER:
2901 Q: And, Mr. Cottrelle, do you recall 2 other concerts after the concert in 1998? 3 A: I can't remember if there was one (1) 4 following year or if it was the last one. 5 Q: So, there could have been another one 6 the next year but you don't remember? 7 A: No, I don't. I don't know if that 8 was the last one or if there was another one. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: But I do remember that flyer. 11 Q: All right. And this -- was this 12 flyer sent out to people at other reserves? 13 A: It could have been. 14 Q: Do -- do you know to what use this 15 flyer was put? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cottrelle. 18 Those are all my questions. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 How long do you estimate you'll be? 23 Because I don't want to push the reporter or the witness 24 too far. But how long do you think you might be? 25 MR. AL O'MARRA: I can't imagine more
2911 than three (3) to five (5) minutes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on 3 then. 4 MR. AL O'MARRA: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know we 6 still have Mr. Ross, so we may have to adjourn in any 7 event. 8 MR. AL O'MARRA: It's twenty to 5:00, I 9 think you'll have lots of -- lots of remaining time. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 13 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, I'm Al O'Marra. I 14 appear on behalf of the Chief Coroner, and I have only 15 very few questions for you but three (3) separate areas. 16 The first is just in that immediate time 17 frame before what I'd refer to as the confrontation in 18 the sandy parking lot. 19 As I understood your evidence earlier 20 today, you indicated that you were asked to drive a lady 21 from the Park to the built-up area in the Camp? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Now, was that part of an 24 evacuation process? 25 A: No. She was -- she just wanted to go
2921 home. 2 Q: Wanted to go home? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. Now, we heard last week from 5 two (2) who were amongst those who were at the -- the 6 confrontation, Leland White George and J.T. Cousins, who 7 I understand that at that time they were fourteen (14)? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And you were sixteen (16) -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- at the time? Can you tell us -- 12 and we heard about the other -- and I'll refer to them as 13 the adults who were on that fence line, leading up to the 14 confrontation. 15 Were there any others there that were 16 younger than either yourself or J.T. or Leland? 17 A: No. 18 Q: We heard that at some period of time, 19 either on the 5th or the 6th, that there were children in 20 the Park area? 21 A: Yeah, during the day. 22 Q: During the day. All right. 23 Specifically I wanted to ask you about your sisters. You 24 indicated that you had three (3) sisters who were, what, 25 eight (8), ten (10) and twelve (12)?
2931 A: Yes. They were at the maintenance 2 shed. 3 Q: Okay. So they were still in the 4 Park? 5 A: Yeah. But it's -- it's a fair 6 distance from where everything happened. 7 Q: Okay. But when you say they were at 8 the maintenance shed, was that at the time you came back 9 up and the confrontation occurred? 10 A: I can't -- I never stopped there, so, 11 but I knew they were in the area prior to me leaving, 12 giving the lady a ride home. 13 Q: In the area of the Park? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And, to your knowledge, were 16 there any other children down in the -- in the Park area? 17 A: No, not that I know of. 18 Q: Okay. Now, the -- the other 19 questions I want to ask you is just about your -- some of 20 your observations at the hospital. 21 I take it that you were conscious 22 throughout both your movement from the -- from the Park 23 and the Camp in the ambulance to the hospital? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And when you were in the
2941 Emergency department, is it your recollection that -- 2 that you arrived -- that you were there first? 3 A: I'm not really too sure on the order, 4 on how we arrived. 5 Q: All right. Well, what's your 6 recollection as -- as to Cecil Bernard George and -- and 7 Dudley? 8 A: I -- I think I was the first one and 9 then Bernard and Dudley. 10 Q: Okay. And in terms of -- of Bernard, 11 was -- was he shortly after or -- to your recollection? 12 A: Yeah, shortly after I believe. 13 Q: And then Dudley George? 14 A: Quite a bit after. 15 Q: Okay. And by "quite a bit," can you 16 give us some -- are you able to estimate -- 17 A: Ten (10), fifteen (15) minutes, 18 somewhere in there maybe. 19 Q: Now, the last area I wanted to -- to 20 ask you about, Mr. Millar asked you if after all of this 21 you had been offered or that you had received some 22 counselling. 23 Now, I don't want to ask you about the 24 nature of the counselling other than this. You 25 apparently sought it out yourself?
2951 A: Yes, it was -- it's quite a -- quite 2 a bit time after that. Didn't -- didn't real directly 3 with what happened. There was other personal problems. 4 Q: Okay. Was there some emotional 5 impact on you as a result of your involvement? 6 A: Yeah, it was -- it had some relation 7 to it. 8 Q: Okay. And the service that you 9 sought out, was it within your own community or I'll 10 refer to it as the larger community? 11 A: Larger community. 12 Q: Okay. And you said it was quite some 13 time afterwards? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Years? 16 A: Years, yes. 17 Q: Okay. So then, I take it that there 18 -- there was no follow-up by the hospital after you'd 19 been taken there having been wounded? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You'd attended to what was a clinic 22 in -- in Forest. You said you'd had the glass removed in 23 -- in Forest. Is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Was that a clinic or your own
2961 physician? 2 A: Yeah, just -- well, it was the family 3 doctor. 4 Q: Family doctor. Any follow-up 5 suggestions through your family doctor? 6 A: No, I don't -- I don't think so. 7 Q: And you described your experience at 8 school, and I take it that there was no offer of -- of 9 assistance or counselling through school? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cottrelle. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Those are my questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. Mr. Ross, give us an estimate of how long you 16 think you might be. 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I will try to finish 18 it -- I'll try to fit it into five o'clock. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 20 want to push you. If you don't think you can finish, I 21 mean, it may not be fair to everybody to -- 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, your call, Mr. 23 Commissioner. I'll try to push myself, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar - 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't --
2971 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- do you 2 want to help me, I know that -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't know that -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well then, 5 you've got any re-examination? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I do have a bit, it 7 might be better if we put it over until tomorrow. Mr. 8 Cottrelle's had a long day. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 10 fine. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have a bit of -- 12 depending on how much Mr. Ross does, I have some re- 13 examination, so perhaps we should adjourn until tomorrow 14 morning at nine o'clock? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, we 16 will adjourn until tomorrow at nine o'clock. Thank you. 17 It's been a long day. Thank you. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And for Counsel, Ms. 19 Hensel has some things to hand out to you. Thank you, 20 sir. 21 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, January 19th, at
2981 9:00 a.m. 2 3 --- Upon adjourning at 4:50 p.m. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Certified Correct 12 13 14 15 16 17 ______________________ 18 Wendy Warnock 19 20 21 22 23 24 25