11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 17th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) (Np) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Maureen Smith )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Erin Tully ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 3 4 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Resumed 5 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 6 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 82 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 177 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Kim Twohig 207 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 211 11 Re-Direct Examination Mr. Derry Millar 227 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 231 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 9 Mr. Commissioner. 10 11 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Resumed 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Good 14 Morning, Mr. George. May I remind you, sir, that you are 15 still under oath. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. My name is 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm here on behalf of the OPP. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: Good morning. I want to begin, sir, 23 if I may, to review with you, a number of what I might 24 suggest were changes in the situation at the Park, which 25 manifested themselves in the late afternoon, early
71 evening of September the 6th, all right? 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: You described for us first of all a 4 physical confrontation that took place between yourself 5 and Stewart George shortly before 8:00 p.m. on the 6 evening of the 6th; correct? 7 A: Yes, yes. 8 Q: And, I trust, sir, from what you had 9 observed during your -- your trips to the area around the 10 Park on the 5th and the 6th, that was the first you had 11 ever observed of a physical confrontation between one of 12 the Park occupiers and someone who was not a police 13 officer. 14 A: Observed or experienced...? 15 Q: Observed, between the 5th and the 16 6th, that was the first you had observed of a physical 17 confrontation between one of the occupiers and someone 18 who was not a police officer? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And secondly, you testified, 21 on Thursday, that during that confrontation that you had 22 with Stewart George, you noticed that there were a number 23 of occupiers outside of the Park in the sandy parking 24 lot; do I have that correct? 25 A: Yes.
81 Q: And, you'd also agree with me that 2 you noticed that at least one of those individuals was 3 carrying what may be described as either a stick or a 4 bat? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, I'm going to suggest to you, 7 sir, that that was the first time, again, during the 8 course of your travels around the Park during the 5th and 9 the 6th, that you saw one of the occupiers, outside of 10 the Park, armed with an object? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You also indicated, sir, that, and it 13 wasn't in your testimony, it was actually in your 14 statement, I noticed, to the SIU which you gave on 15 January the 8th, 1996, and to refresh your memory, you 16 might want to turn to Tab 16 in the book of materials 17 that are just before you, on the table. 18 And, if you're at Tab 16, sir, if you turn 19 to page 3 -- 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: You notice, sir, that you refer to 22 the activity of those individuals in the parking lot, 23 that they were yelling at people as they passed by? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall, sir, what they were
91 yelling? 2 A: I really can't. 3 Q: All right. Fair enough. It's a 4 long -- 5 A: That's too far away. 6 Q: I was about to say to sir, it's a 7 long time ago. You'd agree with me, sir, that that was 8 the first, that you had noticed, of Park occupiers coming 9 outside of the Park boundary, in the parking lot, yelling 10 at passers-by? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Thank you. And, the fourth aspect 13 that was different, I'm going to suggest to you, about 14 the late afternoon of the 6th and the early evening, was 15 what I'm going to describe as an increased amount of 16 activity within the Park. 17 So, for example, sir, you were describing 18 for us last Thursday that you saw the dump truck driving 19 at a fairly good clip between the Park and the Base and 20 there was loud music coming from it. You remember that 21 testimony? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, I'm going to suggest to you, 24 sir, that that was just one example of the increased 25 activity, that you noticed, when you were there on the
101 late afternoon and early evening of the 6th. 2 A: I only saw the -- the dump truck a 3 couple of times and maybe a couple other cars, but I 4 really didn't notice much other than that, -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- along that road that's inside of 7 the Army Camp. 8 Q: All right. And I trust, though, that 9 you'd agree with me that that movement was something that 10 you had not seen prior to the late afternoon and the 11 early evening of the 6th? 12 A: No, but over the whole course that 13 road was used heavily 'cause that's the main road from 14 the Army Camp down to the beach where everybody used to 15 go down to the lakes. 16 Q: I understand, sir. What I understood 17 from your testimony though, on Thursday past, was that 18 this was something that caught your eye. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: It stood out. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, I'm going to turn to 23 a very different area, sir, and that is with respect to 24 the information that you, I'm going to suggest, passed on 25 to the police, about the presence of firearms at Stoney
111 Point; all right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, when I use the term Stoney Point 4 in the questions that follow, you can take it from me 5 that I am referring to the area that is also described as 6 both the Army Base and Ipperwash Provincial Park, so that 7 whole area; okay? 8 A: That might be your point, but Stoney 9 Point at the time, to me, did not include the Ipperwash 10 Park because that was a Provincial Park. 11 Q: No, I understand that entirely, sir. 12 Just in order to make sure that everyone knows what I'm 13 referring to, for ease of reference, I'm going to refer 14 to Stoney Point, globally, as the land mass that 15 comprised the Park and the Army Base; all right? 16 A: Well, you can refer to it like that, 17 but my side is different. I don't consider that 18 Ipperwash Park is part of Stoney Point. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: My Friend, Mr. Henderson has made a 24 very helpful suggestion, because I don't want you to 25 think that I'm asking you to endorse a particular
121 political description of the land. Why don't I simply 2 refer to it as the occupied lands, and when I refer to 3 occupied land, I'm referring to the Park and the Army 4 Base. All right? Globally. 5 A: Fair enough. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: This is 10 becoming much more complicated than I ever intended, Mr. 11 Commissioner. Why don't I proceed it is a lack of 12 clarity. Someone can stand up and ask me to clarify it. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 15 Q: I anticipate, Mr. George, that we're 16 going to hear evidence that on the evening of September 17 the 6th, the Command Post, under the control of the OPP, 18 received certain information as to the presence of 19 firearms in the occupied areas, and the reason I'm 20 leaving it fairly vaguely is -- vague rather, is that -- 21 that's it's not entirely clear whether the information 22 related specifically to the Park or the Army Base. All 23 right? 24 A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE) 25 Q: Okay. Now I anticipate, sir, that
131 we're going to hear that you were the source of that 2 information. So, what I'd like to do, sir, is let's go 3 through a number of points that I anticipate that you and 4 I can agree upon, and then we'll move on to the areas 5 where I anticipate we cannot agree. All right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. Now, first of all, I trust 8 that you'd agree with me that you provided a statement to 9 Officer Poole, in relation to the -- the conflict that 10 you had with Stewart George, on the evening of the 6th; 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You can take it from me that Officer 14 Poole is the uniformed officer with whom you spoke 15 initially; all right? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: Okay. And, I trust that you would 18 also agree that after having spoken with Officer Poole, 19 you spoke with a second officer by the name of Mark Dew. 20 A: And, there's a second officer, I 21 think, 'cause I couldn't remember his name. 22 Q: All right. Again, sir, you can take 23 it from me that that individual's name is Mark Dew; all 24 right? 25 A: Okay, yeah.
141 Q: Okay. You'd agree with me, sir, that 2 the topic of the presence of firearms, in the occupied 3 lands, came up during the course of your conversation 4 with Officer Dew? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And agree -- you'd agree 7 with me, I gather, from the evidence that we heard from 8 you on Thursday, that you did advise Officer Dew that 9 there were probably firearms, in at least the Base, that 10 would be typically used for hunting. Do I have that 11 correct? 12 A: That was my assumption. 13 Q: All right. And that was an 14 assumption that you conveyed to Officer Dew? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: He just asked me what kind, so I 18 said, well, when I hunted in there, I told him what I 19 used, my Ruger, and then my shotgun, so... 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And, I said they probably have rifles 22 similar to that, if there's anything at all. 23 Q: I have to tell you, Mr. George, and 24 maybe because there's a fan nearby, I'm having difficulty 25 hearing you, so I'm going to ask that you speak up a bit;
151 all right? 2 A: All right. 3 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that the 4 topic of scoped firearms came up? 5 A: I told him my -- my rifle was scoped. 6 Q: Okay. So the answer to my question, 7 I trust, is yes...? And, did you also advise Officer Dew 8 that, probably, at the Base, there would be firearms used 9 for hunting, that would also have scopes? 10 A: I told him my rifle was scoped. I 11 said maybe there's -- maybe they have similar guns in 12 there, for hunting deer. 13 Q: All right. Then I take it, sir, that 14 your answer to my question is yes? 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't think that 16 was a yes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: So, what you're prepared to agree 20 with me, sir, then, I gather, is that you would have told 21 Officer Dew that possibly there were scoped firearms at 22 the Base? 23 A: That's my assumption. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Henderson...?
161 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect, Mr. 2 Commissioner, that's not what he's telling you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That isn't 4 what he said in answer to your question, so, you will 5 have to ask him again if you... 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: Let's just clarify, let's go back. I 9 understood you had agreed with me, that you told Officer 10 Dew, that there were probably rifles at the Base, that 11 would be used for hunting. Do I have that correct? 12 A: I told him that what I used for 13 hunting in the Base, and I said they probably might have 14 similar guns, as I did, for hunting deer and hunting 15 around the duck pond. 16 Q: So, it's not probably now, it's 17 probably might have; is that correct? 18 A: Probably. 19 Q: That's probably correct? It's 20 important, Mr. George, -- 21 A: Yes, I know, -- 22 Q: -- that we understand what you told 23 Officer Dew. 24 A: I told him I had a Ruger, two twenty- 25 three, --
171 Q: Right. 2 A: -- that I used for hunting deer when 3 I was in there, I used a .22, and then I used a shotgun 4 for the duck pond. And, I said they probably have 5 similar firearms, -- 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: -- on the Base. 8 Q: All right. So then let's take it one 9 step further, because I must confess, I -- I don't have 10 anywhere near the knowledge of firearms that you do. 11 When you add a scope to a rifle, that 12 differentiates it from, obviously a rifle that doesn't 13 have a scope; right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right. Okay. So, what I'm asking 16 is: Did you also convey to Officer Dew that they 17 probably had firearms with scopes, at the Base? 18 A: I said my rifle was scoped. So maybe 19 he assumed that when I said, they have similar guns, that 20 they had scoped weapons as well. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: There's not much different between a 23 scoped rifle and an open-sight rifle, it's just to shoot 24 something larger and further distance. That's all it is. 25 It's like in bucket seats with your Mercedes or whatever
181 you drive. 2 Q: I can assure you that I -- 3 A: I mean, it's just a added -- 4 Q: -- don't drive a Mercedes. 5 A: -- added luxury. 6 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that the 7 topic of the presence of semi-automatic firearms at the 8 Base came up, or was discussed...? 9 A: No. I just told him my gun -- what 10 my gun was. 'Cause my -- the Ruger is -- my Ruger is a 11 semi-automatic, the Mini-14. 12 Q: Right. So then you'd agree with me 13 that the topic of a semi-automatic was at least 14 discussed; right? 15 A: I can't remember, but when I -- I 16 told him I had Ruger Mini-14, he probably knows his guns, 17 and he probably knew it was a semi-automatic. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Because he should know his guns. 20 Q: Thank you. And, did the -- did the 21 topic, sir, of an automatic weapon, just the topic, did 22 that come up during the course of your discussion? 23 A: I -- I can't remember. You mean 24 full- automatic? 25 Q: Yes.
191 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But he asked me about a -- the anti 4 ta -- anti-tank rocket, -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- and it's not in his report 7 anywhere here either, so. 8 Q: I understand that, and I anticipate 9 that we'll hear from Mr. Dew and he can explain why it is 10 or is not there. 11 You'd agree with me though, that you 12 discussed at least a semi-automatic that you had; 13 correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, is it in any way possible that 16 from something you said, that you were conveying that it 17 was either possible or probable, that there was such a 18 semi-automatic in the Base? 19 A: I said there was -- they -- they may 20 have similar -- a similar rifle as I do. 21 Q: All right. Okay. So, then, you 22 wouldn't disagree if Mr. Dew testified that he was left 23 with the impression, from something you said, that there 24 might be a semi-automatic at the Base; right? 25 A: Well, that would be his impression,
201 you know. 2 Q: Based upon what you told him? 3 A: Possibly. 4 Q: Thank you. All right. Now, you 5 referred to a Chinese SK? 6 A: S. 7 Q: SKS, excuse me. Again, reflecting my 8 own ignorance about firearms. Chinese SKS is a semi- 9 automatic; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, I understand that you've told us 12 that back in 1995 you had a Chinese SKS? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, again, is that another example 15 of a firearm you would have told him about that you had? 16 A: No. I wouldn't tell him I had one of 17 those. He just asked me what kind of firearms I think 18 might -- that I might have thought was on the base, and I 19 told him what I used for hunting. I told him I used my 20 mini -- my Ruger. 21 Q: Yes. I gather you don't use the 22 Chinese SKS for hunting? 23 A: I did a couple times but not anywhere 24 around -- around down home. 25 Q: So, sir, if you were conveying to him
211 the types of weapons that you typically used for hunting, 2 isn't possible that you also conveyed to him that you had 3 a Chinese SKS that you -- 4 A: No. I didn't -- 5 Q: -- used for hunting. 6 A: No. I didn't tell him that at all. 7 Q: You would agree with me, sir -- 8 actually, let me just go back one step. If you turn, 9 sir, in the materials in front of you at Tab 21, I 10 anticipate, sir, that we're going to hear that this is a 11 transcript of a conversation between Mark Dew and an 12 Officer Graham, and that this is information that Officer 13 Dew was conveying to Officer Graham, as a result of a 14 conversation that he just had with you, on the evening of 15 the 6th. 16 And, if you look at the top of page 2, 17 you'll see that there is a reference by the officer to 18 the fact that you had seen four (4) SKF's. Now, I want 19 to leave aside the issue as to whether or not you had 20 seen it or not. 21 What's an SKF, first of all? 22 A: Well there's no such weapon as a SKF. 23 Q: Is possible that -- I mean, we know 24 there's a SKS; correct? 25 A: An SKS, RPK, AKM, AKS, but there's no
221 SKF's. 2 Q: Fair enough. And, is an SKS a 3 Russian semi-automatic, as is described two (2) lines 4 down? 5 A: An S -- SKF? 6 Q: No. SKS? 7 A: There's no Russian semi-automatic. 8 Just the Chinese sell those, Norinco Incorporated. 9 (phonetic) 10 Q: Did I not understand your testimony, 11 earlier on Thursday, that at some point there was a 12 Russian SKS, but now they're made in China? 13 A: Yeah. They were -- they were made 14 just for the military in Russia and they were supplied to 15 their satellite country, at a Warsaw pact. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: And the SKS, the Chinese copied it 18 and that's -- the Chinese put it up for sale. 19 Q: So that at some point then there were 20 Russian SKS's, at the very least? 21 A: Yeah, but not around here. 22 Q: I understand. Around here, as you 23 put it, they are Chinese SKS's -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- right?
231 A: Yes. 2 Q: Right. Okay. You drop down, there's 3 a reference to this either SKF or perhaps it's been lost 4 in the transcribing, SKS, a thirty (30) round detachable 5 clip? 6 A: And a couple -- six (6) -- ten (10) 7 round -- they only have ten (10) round clips for SKS's. 8 Q: Do they have thirty (30) round 9 detachable clips? 10 A: For some of them. 11 Q: Thank you. 12 A: Because there interchangeable with a 13 AKA and RPK. 14 Q: Thank you. Dropping down, we see a 15 reference to a Ruger Mini 14; is this this Ruger semi- 16 automatic, that you acknowledge to the officer that you 17 had used, during -- 18 A: Yeah. That's one (1) of the guns I 19 admitted that I used for hunting. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I only rise to say 21 that My Friend can put them to -- the questions to the 22 witness but we don't know exactly when -- when My Friend 23 says "is this the Ruger Mini 14 that you referred to", we 24 don't know what Martin Dew is talking about here, but it 25 sounds like it. But -- but this is a conversation, not
241 between the witness and anybody, it's between Dew and 2 Grant. 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I appreciate 4 that, Mr. Commissioner. All I'm trying to establish is 5 that these topics of conversation did indeed come up 6 between the Officer and this witness. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: So I'm sorry. In all that, I missed 10 your answer to my question. 11 A: My -- 12 Q: The -- the Ruger Mini-14, is that the 13 same type of gun that you were discussing with Officer 14 Dew, as something that you had had? 15 A: Yeah, that's the kind of gun I told 16 him that I used for hunting. 17 Q: Right. And also, then, the gun that 18 you said that they probably would have at the Base, just 19 in the same way that there were people at the Base 20 hunting? 21 A: I said to him, I said, probably might 22 have a similar gun as I had. 23 Q: Thank you. Dropping down, there's a 24 reference to two Ruger-14s. What would a Ruger-14 be? 25 A: I don't know, I'm not gonna put out
251 words to this guy's radio transmission here. 2 Q: Fair enough. Are you telling me 3 then, that as far as you're aware there's no such thing 4 as a Ruger-14? 5 A: Again, I'm not gonna put words to 6 his, he might have got it wrong. 7 Q: Well, I'm not -- 8 A: Maybe he's referring to a earlier -- 9 my firearm, but I don't know. 10 Q: I gather, sir, the answer to your -- 11 to my question is, is that from your experience and 12 knowledge of firearms, there is no such thing as a Ruger 13 Mini-14? 14 A: There's a Ruger Mini-14. 15 Q: Excuse me. Yes. You're right. 16 A: But not a Ruger-14. 17 Q: I hear what you're saying. And -- 18 A: There's a Ruger-12, it's a handgun, 19 but not a... 20 Q: And, in fairness, what I've done is - 21 - is I've -- I've misquoted, because it looks like Graham 22 is trying to repeat what Dew is -- is telling him in the 23 transcript and it looks like Graham has left out a key 24 word, the word Mini. 25 The clip for a Ruger Mini-14, is that a
261 three oh, a thirty clip? 2 A: You can get a -- well I bought my gun 3 legally, you can still buy them, they come with five- 4 round detachable magazines. But back before that law 5 went through, you could get a ten (10), fifteen (15), 6 twenty (20), thirty (30), forty (40) round and ninety 7 (90)-round snail drum mag for them. 8 Q: Thank you. And, as we continue on 9 page 3 of that transcript, you'll see that Officer Dew 10 refers to the presence of hunting rifles with scopes, of 11 course. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, I think we've already agreed 14 that you did say things, which reasonably would have left 15 Officer Dew with the impression, that there were possibly 16 or even probably, hunting rifles with scopes at the Base; 17 correct? 18 A: Well, he probably assumed that. 19 Q: Based on what you told him? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Right. You've agreed already, sir, 22 that during the summer of 1995, you had limited, but 23 certainly some access, to the Army Base; correct? 24 A: In 1995, our -- after August, not -- 25 none.
271 Q: Well, for me summer starts before 2 August, so during the summer of 1995, before August, -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- you did have access to the Army 5 Base? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: With what frequency did you go on the 8 Army Base? 9 A: Not -- not too much. 10 Q: Well, I'm asking you, sir, how 11 frequently did you go on the Army Base? 12 A: The -- the wooded section or the 13 built-up area? 14 Q: Let's start with the wooded section. 15 A: I went back there several times, not 16 too much. 17 Q: Several times during the month of 18 July? 19 A: July, July...I'm not sure I went on 20 in July. 21 Q: We seem to have a musical interlude 22 at the moment. Someone's computer is not behaving 23 politely. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Edwards, 25 you've decided to entertain us.
281 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: All right. You indicated that you 4 went into the wooded area of the Base -- excuse me -- 5 several times during the month of July? 6 A: I'm not sure I went in there in July. 7 Q: All right. When -- when, then, did 8 you go in -- 9 A: Or June. Maybe -- maybe in April or 10 May. 11 Q: April or May? All right. 12 A: Some time or other, it's been a long 13 time. 14 Q: Okay. And the last time that you 15 were on the Army Base, prior to the point where you were 16 directly asked to leave by a particular female occupant 17 of that Base, when was the last time you'd been on the 18 Base? 19 A: You mean, not including that -- the 20 incident, Toyota -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I can't remember. April, May, 23 sometime around there. 24 Q: Thank you. And, certainly you'd 25 agree with me that you were receiving, to some extent,
291 information about weaponry present on the Base; correct? 2 A: Firearms...? 3 Q: Yes, I'm sorry, I should clarify my 4 terminology: Firearms. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. For example you told us that 7 you had heard that there was a Chinese SKS on the Base; 8 right? 9 A: That was early '95, yeah. 10 Q: Pardon...? 11 A: That was early '95. 12 Q: Early '95...? All right. What other 13 firearms had you heard of that were on the Base? So, not 14 something that you had seen, but something you had heard 15 of, from anybody? 16 A: Just from the hearsay that that's the 17 only really names of rifle that come to me. That's -- 18 that's the only the type I heard, that come to me. 19 Q: All right. Were you hearing apart 20 from particular types, were you hearing classifications, 21 for example, were you hearing that there were semi- 22 automatics on the Base? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You testified, with a certain degree 25 of -- of seriousness, about your concern about the
301 presence of what I might call, outsiders, -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- on the Base? And in particular, 4 you were very concerned about the influence that a 5 gentleman by the name of Les Jewel, either was having or 6 might be having, over some of the younger members of that 7 community. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, did you have any concerns that 10 Mr. Jewel might be bringing in semi-automatics into the 11 Base? 12 A: I was asking about that but I never 13 got a -- a straight answer from anybody. 14 Q: So it was a concern of yours? 15 A: A lot of things were concerning me at 16 the time. 17 Q: I'm not asking about a lot of things, 18 I'm asking about the presence of semi-automatic 19 weapons, -- 20 A: Well, I -- 21 Q: -- that Mr. Jewel might be bringing 22 in. 23 A: No, I wasn't, I was -- I was mostly 24 concerned about the influence he's having over some 25 people there.
311 Q: Sir, you -- 2 A: But if -- if that information come to 3 me, I didn't directly ask about it. I wasn't really 4 concerned that at -- about that at the time, in early 5 '95. 6 Q: Sir, didn't you just tell us that 7 indeed you did make an inquiry, which left -- was left 8 unresolved, about whether or not he had brought in semi- 9 automatic firearms? 10 A: I just asked if he -- if he had a gun 11 or anything, like a handgun or anything. But nobody gave 12 me a answer on that one. 13 Q: All right. So you'd agree with me, 14 at the very least, you were suspicious that he had 15 brought in firearms onto the Base? 16 A: No, not firearms, maybe his own. 17 Q: Fair enough. A firearm...? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And, something more than a hunting 20 rifle? 21 A: I think I specifically asked a couple 22 of my relatives about if he had a handgun. 23 Q: Handgun. Thank you. And, a handgun, 24 a semi-automatic handgun, possibly, you were concerned 25 about?
321 A: A handgun can be anything from an old 2 flint-lock to a semi-automatic to a double-action 3 revolver to a Derringer. A handgun's a handgun. 4 Q: So, fair to say that you were 5 concerned about the full range of handguns, be it one 6 handgun, but the full range of its power and capacity, 7 that Les Jewel might have brought on to that Base? 8 A: It really doesn't matter the power of 9 a handgun that -- it's the person who has it, who owns 10 it. It really doesn't matter what calibre a handgun is. 11 Q: So to answer my question, you were 12 concerned that Mr. Jewel might have brought on a handgun, 13 of any capacity, onto the Base? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. Were you concerned that 16 other outsiders may have done the same thing? 17 A: I was mostly concerned over the 18 influence, not -- not -- I wasn't really thinking about 19 guns at the time, just with Les Jewel's, because he's 20 from the States. That's mostly why I was -- I was asking 21 about him. That's what I can remember. 22 Q: Okay. And, one (1) other point that, 23 no doubt, you'll agree with, because, to be quite candid, 24 the information that you convey speaks for itself but you 25 are extremely knowledgeable about firearms; correct?
331 A: Yes. 2 Q: Including semi-automatic firearms; 3 correct? 4 A: All kinds. 5 Q: All kinds. Thank you. 6 A: But, Dew also -- he didn't ask me 7 about gas pumps either, and that's in his report, so. 8 Q: Well, I'm going to get to that in a 9 minute. So, what we can agree on, is that you provided 10 him with information that may reasonably have led him to 11 conclude that there, probably or possibly, was a semi- 12 automatic weapon at the base; we've agreed on that? 13 A: I provided with my assumption that 14 there might have been -- 15 Q: Thank you. 16 A: -- they might have similar hunting 17 rifles as my own. 18 Q: And, can we agree -- I assume that we 19 can't, sir, but I -- I trust it's your position that you 20 never conveyed to this officer that you actually 21 eyeballed such weaponry? 22 A: No. I never said that. I don't use 23 the term "eyeballed". 24 Q: Sorry. I'm sorry. I wasn't meaning 25 to suggest that you had actually used that term, that's
341 my term. I trust that you would not agree with me, if I 2 suggested to you, that you said things that led Officer 3 Dew to the conclusion that you had actually seen the 4 firearms that I've just described? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Henderson? 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'll take 8 exception to that one, if I may, Commissioner. The 9 witness may or may not have said things which he may or 10 may not recall after this period. Whether or not they 11 led Officer Dew to believe anything, nothing or something 12 other than what he said is beyond his -- and not proper - 13 - not proper evidence to illicit from. 14 In other words, My -- My Friend has asked, 15 What -- what could Officer Dew had been led to believe 16 from what you said? How would he know that? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 18 not exactly what -- the question she put. But why don't 19 you respond to that? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, if I might -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 22 Mr. Millar. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Tuck-Jackson used 24 words like, That Officer Dew could reasonably assume from 25 what you said. What this witness can say --
351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is what he 2 said. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- is what he said. 4 He can't tell us what was in the mind of -- of Officer 5 Dew. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, she can fairly 8 put to him, as she has, Did you tell him X or Y or Z. 9 But, how can this witness say what was in the mind of 10 Officer Dew -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she 12 can sub -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and -- and what 14 Officer Dew assumed. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And I 17 acknowledge that, Mr. Commissioner, quite frankly. 18 That's why I was very careful to -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- include the 21 word "might reasonably". 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But how can -- how can 23 he answer -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 25 for you to make -- I think it's for you to make an
361 argument, Ms. Tuck-Jackson -- 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I understand, 3 sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you make 5 that argument you've got the -- 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: What I -- what 7 I want to do is, in fairness, put to this witness and 8 give an opportunity to tell us whether or not he said 9 anything -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- that 12 ultimately might have allowed Officer Dew to conclude -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 that's -- 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- if he had 16 actually -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 18 that's what Counsel are objecting to. You can -- he can 19 say what he said and then you can argue what that might 20 have led Officer Dew to conclude -- 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or 23 affirm. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:
371 Q: Mr. George, I trust it's your 2 position that you did not tell Officer Dew that you had 3 actually seen the firearms, for example the semi- 4 automatic Ruger, you didn't actually say to him that you 5 had seen it at the base? 6 A: No, I didn't say that. I didn't. 7 Q: And, is it your position, sir, that 8 at no time did you convey to the officer that you had 9 actually been at the base in 1995? 10 A: I think I told him I wasn't -- I 11 wasn't in the base recently, I -- I have no knowledge of 12 what's going on in there. 13 Q: So, your evidence is, you explicitly 14 told him that you had not been in the base, recently? 15 A: I told him I -- I wasn't -- I think I 16 told him I wasn't allowed in there. 17 Q: I'm sorry. I'm really having trouble 18 hearing you. 19 A: I think I told him I wasn't allowed 20 in there. 21 Q: All right. Did you tell him, sir, 22 that indeed you had been on the Base at some point in 23 1995? 24 A: I told him I -- I used to hunt in 25 there.
381 Q: In 1995? 2 A: No, no, we don't -- be hunting in the 3 fall of '94. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Don't, really don't hunt anything in 6 a -- the spring or the summer. 7 Q: So, I'll ask the question again. Did 8 you say to Officer Dew that you had been at the Base at 9 any point in 1995, and it may be that you can't recall? 10 A: I don't think so. He might have 11 asked me that but I can't recall if he asked me if I was 12 in the Base or in the Park. 13 Q: Thank you. We've heard evidence, 14 sir, that gas bombs or Molotov cocktails were actually 15 made very, very late on September the 6th, and thrown or 16 used, following the shooting of Dudley George. And, I'm 17 going to suggest to you, sir, that you indeed conveyed, 18 to Officer Dew, that you were aware that the occupiers 19 had the makings of Molotov cocktails? 20 A: Your suggestion is wrong. I didn't 21 know what they were doing in -- in there. 22 Q: We've also -- 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: Beg your pardon? 25 A: Sorry.
391 Q: Sorry? 2 A: Your suggestion is wrong. 3 Q: Thank you. We've also heard 4 evidence, sir, that following the shooting, one (1) or 5 more buildings within the Park were burned down. And, 6 I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that you actually told 7 Officer Dew that you understood that the occupiers 8 intended to burn down buildings? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So, it's quite clear, sir, that your 11 position is that Officer Dew has attributed to you, words 12 that you never said? 13 A: It seems that way. He doesn't 14 mention the anti-tank rocket or making me point out 15 pictures either, in any of his reports or his radio 16 report, so. 17 Q: As I said, sir, I anticipate we'll 18 hear from the officer as to why something was or was not 19 included. 20 A: Or added. 21 Q: So, you're indicating and you're in 22 essence accusing the officer of putting words in your 23 mouth; do I have that correct? 24 A: It appears that's what's happening. 25 Q: Much in the same way, I gather, that
401 the reporter, who authored the article that was published 2 on August the 3rd, 1995, put words in your mouth? 3 A: And, which words would that be. 4 Q: Well, I want to take you back to 5 that, as a matter of fact. At Tab 5 of your book, there 6 is a copy of a newspaper article authored by Julie Carl, 7 headlined: "Armed standoff dismissed" -- I think is the 8 word, it's cut off -- and published in the London Free 9 Press on August the 3rd, 1995. 10 And, you -- thank you. That's Exhibit P- 11 1-20, for the purposes of the record. And, you'd agree, 12 sir, that you were interviewed by Ms. Carl? 13 A: It looks like she asked me some 14 questions. 15 Q: Yes, it does. It also looks like you 16 gave her some answers. So, let's go through those 17 answers. Halfway down the first column she writes the 18 following: 19 "But a Kettle and Stoney Point Band 20 Councillor, who was among Natives who 21 moved onto the land in May 1993 but 22 left four (4) months later when the 23 repossession, quote, started taking a 24 bad turn, unquote, said Natives at the 25 Army Camp, do have weapons."
411 Now, first of all, before going further, 2 she appears to have attributed to you the exact words 3 "started taking a bad turn". Is it your position that 4 you did or did not use those words? 5 A: I can't remember. 6 Q: So, it's possible that you did and 7 it's possible that you didn't? 8 A: It's possible. 9 Q: Next paragraph begins with a 10 quotation, which has been attributed to you. Quote: 11 "There are weapons down there. I'm not 12 fooled by them." 13 Unquote. Said Gerald George. 14 A: I said -- I probably said guns. I 15 wouldn't use, when talking to people, I don't think I'd 16 use a term weapons. 17 Q: So she has misquoted you? 18 A: She's probably added her own words. 19 That's what likely usually happens when you talk to 20 newspapers. 21 Q: Well, sir, my experience is that when 22 a reporter puts something in quotation marks, it's a 23 precise and exact quote. 24 A: Well, my experience with -- with all 25 the -- a lot of the news reporters is that they like to
421 change things and make it sound more sensational to sell 2 papers. 3 Q: So, your evidence today, sir, is that 4 you did not use the word, weapons; is that correct? 5 A: I did not. I tried not to use the 6 term weapons when describing. I just -- I'd say, guns,-- 7 Q: And, sir, -- 8 A: -- firearms. 9 Q: And, sir, did you use the words, 10 there are, whether or not hunting guns or whatever, there 11 are guns down there? 12 A: Again, I can't say I did or I didn't. 13 Q: "I'm not fooled by them". Were those 14 your words? 15 A: I can't remember. What she's 16 probably asking me about, if there was guns in that 17 campground, and I probably told her that I was a -- that 18 I had a -- when I was in there I'd hunt. It probably 19 come from something like that, talking to her. 20 Q: So in other words, if I have your 21 evidence straight, you did not definitively say to her, 22 there are guns at the Park; correct? 23 A: The Park...? 24 Q: Excuse me, at the Base. 25 A: I can't definitely say yes or no to
431 that, because I can't really remember. 2 Q: You see, it's curious, because what 3 you seem to be saying is that, I told her the same kind 4 of thing that I told Officer Dew, which is, I probably 5 said to her, you know, I used to have hunting weapons, 6 and that's probably what they have at the Base. Is that 7 the kind of thing you think you told her too? 8 A: No, I -- I remember talking to Dew, 9 because we were talk -- it was a serious talk. But this 10 could have just -- she could have just walked up to me 11 outside of a Band -- a Band meeting and asked me a quick 12 question and I gave a quick response. 13 Q: I'm going to ask the question again, 14 sir. Are you saying to us that when you spoke with this 15 witness -- excuse me, this reporter -- what you likely 16 said to her was, you know what, I used to hunt in the 17 Base, and I used to use these kinds of weapons and that's 18 probably the kind of weapons they have in there. 19 A: I can't remember what I told her. 20 Q: Excuse me -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 22 minute. Yes, Mr. Henderson? You speak into the 23 microphone. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, sir. The 25 witness just answered exactly that question.
441 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: It was a 3 different circumstance he said, I wouldn't have had the 4 same dialogue. The question's already asked and 5 answered. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With all due 7 respect, Mr. Henderson, the witness has not exactly been 8 an easy witness to cross-examine. This is cross- 9 examination, the witness's answers are somewhat 10 circuitous, if I might say so. And, I think that counsel 11 is perfectly right in weighing what she's asking these 12 questions, up to this point. So I'm going to allow her 13 to continue. Carry on, please. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: So, I'm going to ask the question 19 again, because I thought that's what you told us several 20 questions ago, or answers ago, as the case may be. 21 Did you tell the Officer -- excuse me, not 22 the Officer, the reporter: Well, I used to hunt in that 23 Base, and these are the kinds of guns I would use when I 24 was hunting. So probably there are those kinds of guns 25 at the Base. Is that what you told her?
451 A: Okay, I'm gonna respond. I really 2 don't remember what I said to this woman, this reporter. 3 Okay. I'm gonna have -- that's -- my answer's gonna be 4 to that. 5 Q: Be what? 6 A: I can't really remember what I -- 7 what I told her. 'Cause I can't. 8 Q: It's curious, sir, because when you 9 testified on January the 13th, you had a much better 10 recollection of what you did tell the reporter. 11 Mr. Commissioner, for your benefit and the 12 benefit of My Friends, I'm referring to page 43 of the 13 Transcript on January the 13th, last Thursday. 14 Now, sir, unfortunately, you don't have a 15 copy of that in front of you, but I intend to read -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We can get -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you can 18 read it. It may be just a short part, you could read it. 19 If we need it, we'll get it. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: These are -- 21 this is an exchange between yourself, Mr. George, and My 22 Friend Mr. Millar, and it's about what you did or did not 23 tell Ms. Carl: 24 "Q: And so that when you spoke to the 25 reporter you told the reporter that
461 people were hunters and so they had 2 guns because they were hunters? 3 A: Yeah. But they usually don't put 4 that in there, they use other terms, 5 weapons, assault rifles. When you have 6 -- when you say "guns", they like 7 changing the words. 8 Q: So, you -- but so, when you spoke 9 to the reporter you said that because 10 these people were hunters they had guns 11 and -- 12 A: I said people hunt there in the 13 fall all the time, they hunt deer, they 14 have guns. There's guns on the Army -- 15 Army Base. That's what I said and it 16 turned out to be weapons. Not 17 weapons, guns. 18 Q: So, the quote where it says, 19 quote, weapons, unquote, is -- well, 20 it's -- it's not -- did you say, quote, 21 there are weapons down there, I'm not 22 fooled by them, unquote? 23 A: I said they have guns down there. 24 I don't know if I said that I'm not 25 fooled by them. They have -- there's
471 guns down there." 2 That, sir, was your evidence that you gave 3 last Thursday. 4 A: Well, then -- 5 Q: Does that refresh your memory as to 6 what you did or did not tell the reporter? 7 A: Yes, kind of. 8 Q: Okay. Are -- are you now prepared to 9 agree that she correctly attributed -- 10 A: She -- yeah, she must have. 11 Q: So, then you agree that you told the 12 -- the reporter, There are -- and you didn't say weapons, 13 you said guns? 14 A: Guns, hunting. 15 Q: "There are guns down there, I'm not 16 fooled by them." 17 A: I can't remember if I said that part. 18 Q: All right. But, what you do agree 19 then is that you said, unequivocally to the reporter 20 that, There are firearms down there? 21 A: I must have. 22 Q: Thank you. So, it would appear then 23 that the -- the reporter, with the exception of the word 24 "weapon", did not misquote you? 25 A: Some of the time she might have
481 misquoted me, but she must have left "firearms" in from 2 me. 3 Q: Okay. Let's move on to another 4 person that I understand you claim has mis-attributed 5 words to you. Let's turn to Roderick Judas George. 6 You were asked about a conversation by My 7 Friend Mr. Millar, last Thursday, about a conversation 8 that we've heard took place between yourself and Roderick 9 George after -- excuse me -- several years after the 10 incident involving Dudley George. 11 We've heard that it occurred perhaps in 12 1997. You've told us that it occurred, I think, in 1999. 13 And you were asked by Mr. Millar -- and, again, I'm going 14 to read your evidence for you to refresh your memory. 15 And, for the Friends -- excuse me -- for 16 My Friends' benefit and for Mr. Commissioner, I'm 17 referring to page 153 of the transcript: 18 "Q: And during your conversation with 19 Mr. Roderick George, did Mr. Roderick 20 George ask you why you had told the OPP 21 they had weapons in the Park? 22 A: I can't remember that. He might 23 have, but I don't know what he was 24 talking about, but I didn't -- excuse 25 me -- I didn't know what he was talking
491 about because I didn't see that report 2 until just -- until like just a week 3 ago when you gave that to me." 4 Now, just a minute before I go on there, 5 because something caught my eye before, actually caught 6 my ear, before when you said it. You didn't know what 7 Roderick George was talking about because you didn't see 8 that report 'til like just a week ago. 9 Are you talking about the fact that as of 10 today, for example, or most recently, you weren't aware 11 of what Officer Dew had tol -- had attributed to you? 12 A: No, not that. Not the whole list. 13 Q: Not the whole list? 14 A: No. I was just told that '96-'97, by 15 a news reporter, that I was quoted as telling the OPP 16 that there's weapons in there. 17 Q: Okay. So what you're saying is that 18 you weren't aware of the full breadth of information that 19 Officer Dew had attributed to you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. 22 "Q: But -- 23 A: When I thought he was yelling 24 gibberish at me. 25 Q: Did you say to him, do you -- did
501 you say to Mr. Roderick George, that's 2 was -- that's what I was told to say? 3 A: No, I didn't say that." 4 A: I was told to say what...? Was that 5 me or him? 6 Q: Roderick Judas George is attributing 7 to you, the following: When he asked you, why had you 8 told the OPP they had weapons in the Park? He has told 9 us, at the Inquiry, that your reply was -- not that you 10 denied saying it, but that you were told to say it? 11 A: No, nobody tells me what to do. I 12 didn't -- no one told me to say that. 13 Q: So, I gather then, that Roderick 14 George has attributed to you, something you never said? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. That appears to be Number 3. 17 Let's move on to Person No. 4, Stewart George. 18 During the course of My Friend, Mr. 19 Miller's 20 examination of you last Thursday, he asked you in 21 connection with your confrontation with Stewart George, 22 the following question: 23 Mr. Commissioner, I'm referring to page 95 24 of the transcript. 25 "Q: Okay, and so just before we get
511 there, did -- do you recall saying 2 something to Mr. -- Mr. George when you 3 yelled back at him: Worm, you're going 4 to get it." 5 And, for the life of me, I can't read 6 what's next, because for some reason, the printer has 7 gone haywire and has printed the words vertically. I 8 think it says: 9 "Do you recall saying those words? 10 A: No, I think I just called him A -- 11 A-hole and that kind of stuff." 12 Do you recall giving that evidence? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: All right. The reason, I anticipate, 15 sir, Mr. Millar asked you that question, was that during 16 his evidence, before the Inquiry...and Mr. Commissioner, 17 I'm referring to the testimony of Stewart George, of 18 November the 2nd, during his examination by Mr. Worme, 19 and I'm referring to page 76. 20 And, as part of the narrative as to what 21 transpired between you and him, Stewart George had the 22 following to say. And for the benefit of my friends, I'm 23 referring to around Line 2 of page 76: 24 "And I -- I walked up to his car and 25 asked him what he was doing around
521 here. And he started to say something 2 so I gave him a slap and he took off 3 from about -- from here to you away and 4 he stopped and he turned around and 5 looked back at me and said, Worme, 6 you're going to get it." 7 A: No, he -- he didn't slap me, he 8 punched me right in the ear and then he pulled away and I 9 looked out and I -- and I said, What did you do that for? 10 And he said -- he just started jumping around trying to 11 get me to come out, so -- and then he -- I was going to 12 take off and he hit the car with a rock. That's when I 13 took off. 14 Q: So, at no time did you say anything 15 to the effect of, Worme, you're going to get it? 16 A: No, I just swore at him a little bit. 17 Q: Or, Worme, your days are numbered? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You didn't say anything threatening 20 to him in any fashion? 21 A: I just swore at him. 22 Q: So it would appear that Stewart 23 George has attributed something to you that you never 24 said? 25 A: Looks like it.
531 Q: Okay, that's Number 4. Mr. 2 Commissioner, I notice it's about 11:30. Would this be 3 an appropriate time to break? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You still 5 have a bit more to go? 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Well I -- Oh, I 7 have quite a bit more to go. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Quite a bit 9 more to go? Well then, I suppose so, if you think this 10 is a good time. We've only been going an hour; we could 11 go -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: I'm -- I'm 13 content to keep going and I can finish off an area a 14 little bit more tightly. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 16 would be a better idea; we've only been going an hour. 17 Let's go a little longer. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Good enough. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 21 Q: You provided a statement to the SIU 22 on January 8th, 1996 and that appears at Tab 16 of your 23 materials. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
541 Q: One (1) of the officers, sir, in 2 attendance was an officer by the name of Jim Kennedy. Do 3 you recall that? 4 A: No. I can't remember 5 Q: Okay. There's another document in 6 front of you on the table, loose document up on the left, 7 sir, towards the top -- towards the left. There are two 8 (2) loose documents there. There's one (1) -- Mr. 9 Commissioner, I've provided you with a copy as well -- 10 entitled, "Special Investigations Unit Follow-Up Report". 11 For the benefits of my Friend, it is Inquiry Document 12 1005464. 13 And, before I direct you, sir, to a 14 specific passage within that report, at any time, sir, 15 during the course of your interview, did you say anything 16 about the presence of heavy weapons at the Kettle and 17 Stoney Point Reserve? 18 A: I really can't remember. 19 Q: So you could have? 20 A: I remember talking about semi- 21 automatics, so I referred to some heavy weapons like -- 22 big stuff, like what I owned -- a RPK. 23 Q: But, did you actually say that anyone 24 apart from yourself, had heavy weapons at Kettle and 25 Stoney Point Reserve?
551 A: I can't remember. But that night I 2 referred to myself as having a lot of, what I'd call 3 heavy stuff. 4 Q: I'd like you to turn to Page 2 of 5 the report. The first paragraph -- the first complete 6 paragraph at the top of the page commencing, "After the 7 interview was ended --." I apologize, I have provided 8 everyone with the wrong number, it's 1005392. My 9 apologies. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1005392? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Yes, sir, 12 it's -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: -- it's 15 written, I hope, at the top of the document, although I 16 may have miswritten it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 20 Q: My apologies. All right. You see 21 that paragraph, sir? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It reads as follows: 24 "After the interview was ended with 25 Gerald George he continued to talk
561 about the people at the Army Camp. He 2 believes that there will be another 3 confrontation at the Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park. The on-fire group at 5 Thedford are demanding to have the Park 6 open on May 1st and that he is involved 7 in preparing small defensive units to 8 protect themselves in case there is a 9 confrontation." 10 And, in fairness, you had actually already 11 alluded to that in your testimony last Thursday. This is 12 the sentence I'm particularly interested in. 13 "Gerald George seemed to have some 14 knowledge on weaponry and alluded to a 15 number of heavy weapons being on the 16 Kettle Point reserve, but none in the 17 Ipperwash Army camp." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Does that refresh your memory as to 20 what you may have told, or indeed, did tell Officer 21 Kennedy? 22 A: Yeah, I just told him I had some -- I 23 probably shouldn't have used the term "heavy weapons", 24 but that's what I said. I meant my AR-15 and the RPK. 25 Q: You see, what I find curious, sir, is
571 that nowhere in the report does it say that you were 2 referring to yourself, your own collection of firearms. 3 And, I appreciate that we would have to 4 hear from Officer Kennedy to -- to understand what it was 5 that he was writing down, but let me ask you this: did 6 you say anything about people other than yourself having 7 heavy weapons at Kettle Point reserve or still -- Kettle 8 and Stoney Point reserve, because that's the proper name 9 of it. 10 A: Hmm hmm. I really can't remember. 11 But I remember, like, I was telling him what I had. I 12 had weapons. I said heavy weapons. 13 Q: So, when you say you can't remember, 14 is it possible that you did? 15 A: No, but on here he doesn't say that I 16 was said several different people either. He just said 17 on Kettle Point. So maybe he assumed that I was talking 18 about other people when I was describing mine. 19 Q: That seems to be the assumption that 20 you'd have us draw in relation to what Mark Dew was 21 thinking as well. But that's for argument and I -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's for 23 argument. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- won't pursue 25 that.
581 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not - 2 - not necessary. Go on. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 5 Q: So at the end of the day, sir, would 6 you agree with me that you would not be reluctant in 7 conveying to police about the presence of heavy weaponry 8 on the reserve? 9 A: Can you say that again? 10 Q: Would you agree with me that you 11 would not be reluctant to convey to the police about the 12 presence of heavy weaponry on the Kettle and Stony Point 13 reserve? 14 A: My -- my firearms I wouldn't. 15 Q: But not anybody else's? 16 A: This -- this -- no. 17 Q: You wouldn't tell the officer about 18 any other person's heavy weaponry? 19 A: I'm not -- I don't know. 20 Q: You don't know? 21 A: On this day I would. 22 Q: No, I'm talking about, sir, what you 23 did on January the 8th, 1996. 24 A: That is a long time ago. 25 Q: Yes, it is. But your recollection of
591 the events of September 6th, 1995 seem to be quite clear, 2 so I can only assume that your events of this interview 3 would also be quite clear. 4 A: I was -- is that a question? 5 Q: Yes, it is. I'm trying to determine 6 whether or not you conveyed to the police, on that day, 7 that individuals other than yourself had heavy weaponry 8 at Kettle and Stony Point. What's your -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Henderson? Mr. Henderson has an objection. He's -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Again, with 12 respect, sir, he has answered this question. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 14 has. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: There's nothing 16 in that document that suggests he did convey -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 18 he has answered his question. He said that his testimony 19 is that he had heavy weapons. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, I 21 understand that. I'm just trying to learn if he conveyed 22 to them that anyone else did and we seem to have had a 23 number of different answers to that question. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: But if -- if,
601 Mr. Commissioner, if you're satisfied, then I'll move on. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 3 you've gone over that point. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 6 might be a good time, unless you're still on the same 7 issue. Are you on the same? 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: The only -- the only final point, 11 sir, that I want to make then, it's your position that 12 Mark Dew mis-attributed words to you, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It would appear that the reporter, 15 Julie Carl mis-attributed words to you, correct? 16 A: She had some things out of context. 17 Q: It -- you'd agree also that Roderick 18 George has mis-attributed words to you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you'd agree that Stuart George 21 has mis-attributed words to you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, certainly if Officer Kennedy 24 testifies down the road that you told him that people 25 other than yourself had heavy weaponry at Kettle and
611 Stony Point, he has mis-attributed words to you too? 2 A: I guess. 3 Q: That would be a good point, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. We'll adjourn now for our morning break. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: Mr. George, you'd agree with me, sir, 20 that you have not always been truthful in your accounts 21 as to what transpired between you and Stewart George, on 22 the evening of September the 6th. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. So for -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry,
621 what was the question? You haven't always been truthful? 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Truthful, in 3 respect of his accounts of what occurred on the evening 4 of September the 6th, and he just agreed with that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And, I'm happy 7 to illustrate -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 9 fine. You've asked the question, he's given you an 10 answer. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: In particular, sir, I want to take 14 you to your statement to the SIU officers of January the 15 8th, 1996, Tab 16 of the book in front of you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 16 did 17 you say? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, sir. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 21 Q: You recall meeting with the members 22 of the SIU that day, sir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. My Friend has reminded me that 25 I should provide the Inquiry Document number. I've got
631 several versions. I have it at 6000-408 but that's not-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- what 4 everyone else has. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 100 -- 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Oh, excuse me. 7 No, no, no, I apologize. I've got the wrong document. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: A moments 12 indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think what -- for 14 the rest -- for everyone else it's 100-2275. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's correct. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 17 I thought it was, 100-2275. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: Sir, in speaking to the SIU, I trust 21 you understood that they were interested in hearing from 22 you, your account of what occurred on the evening of 23 September the 6th, 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You understood that they were
641 interested, I trust, in hearing the truth? 2 A: In the what? 3 Q: In the truth. You understood that 4 the police were interested in hearing the truth from you. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right, okay. You have already 7 testified before this Inquiry that during the 8 confrontation with Stewart George, he hit you in the side 9 of the head, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- and I can advise you, sir, 12 that -- that Stewart George, when he testified, also 13 acknowledged that he used physical force against you 14 during that confrontation, all right? So that appears 15 not to be an issue anymore, okay? And, for the record 16 he's just nodded in affirmative. 17 If I can take you to page 2 of your 18 statement, sir. We know, when you met with Officer Poole 19 within minutes of the incident, you did not volunteer 20 that you had been struck by Stewart George, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. In this interview, the 23 interview of January 1996, you were specifically asked by 24 Officer Kennedy, and I'm looking at -- towards the bottom 25 of the page:
651 "Q: Were you ever struck by Stewart 2 George? 3 A: Ah, no." 4 Do you recall being asked that question 5 and giving that answer? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And, indeed, you agree that you did 8 give that answer; correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that wasn't true; correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So, you were prepared to mislead the 13 authorities about what had happened on September the 6th, 14 1995? 15 A: I just didn't want that -- any 16 assaults being in the record, like, Natives fighting 17 Natives. 18 Q: Let's go back to my question. You 19 were prepared to mislead the authorities about what had 20 occurred that night? 21 A: Just on the assault. 22 Q: Just on the assault. So, the answer 23 to my question is, Yes, in specific areas? 24 A: Just in one area, the assault. 25 Q: Okay. Just on the assault. Turn to
661 page 5, please. A little more than halfway down the page 2 Officer Kennedy asks you the following question. And, 3 again, he appears to be referring to the time frame of 4 September 1995: 5 "Q: Was there any firearms on the 6 Army Camp? 7 A: -- " 8 Do you see where I am, sir? Page 5. 9 A: Yeah. I was on the wrong page. 10 Q: Not a problem. A little bit more 11 than halfway down -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- 14 "Q: Was there any firearms on the 15 Army Camp? 16 A: I have no idea." 17 And that wasn't true, was it, sir? 18 A: At the time he probably meant, Are 19 there any firearms on the Camp right now, and at the time 20 I couldn't tell him. 21 Q: Well, you see, the difficulty, sir, 22 is he didn't ask, Are there any firearms on the Army 23 Camp. The question was, Was there any firearms on the 24 Army Camp, it's past tense. And, your answer is: 25 "I have no idea."
671 You go on: 2 "I couldn't tell you." 3 You'd agree with me, Mr. George, having 4 regard to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 6 You have to finish the -- I think to be fair to the 7 witness -- 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Oh yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you 10 should finish that -- that answer. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: Fair enough. 14 "The only thing I know would -- they'd 15 probably had firearms to hunt." 16 And, you used the word "probably". 17 A: Yes. Probably. It wasn't 18 affirmative answer, I couldn't say yes or no to that. 19 Q: He -- 20 A: I said, Probably. 21 Q: Right. Okay. So, and I know that 22 you may think it's odd that I care about one (1) word or 23 another, but it is important, the impression that you 24 leave with people. So, it's clear here, that initially 25 you say:
681 "I have no idea, I couldn't tell you, 2 they probably did." 3 But, if we go back, sir, to the evidence 4 that you gave this Inquiry about what you told to the 5 reporter back in August of 1995 -- and, again, Mr. 6 Commissioner and My Friends, I'm referring to page 43 of 7 the January 13th, 2005 transcript. 8 Your answer to My Friend Mr. Miller about 9 what you would have told the reporter appears at line 17: 10 "I said people hunt there in the fall 11 all the time. They hunt deer. They 12 have guns. There's guns on the Army -- 13 Army Base. That's what I said." 14 A: That refers to the -- the newspaper. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: At the time that's what I said. 19 Q: You didn't -- you didn't tell the 20 reporter, There are probably guns. You said, There are 21 guns. Right? 22 A: I must have if it was -- if that's 23 what I said. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: But to the police, I never said that
691 are guns. I said they probably have. 2 Q: Probably have. 3 A: Just like it says in your written 4 report here, the SIU report. I didn't confirm it or 5 denied it either way. 6 Q: SIU report isn't my report, sir. 7 A: Well, they're former police so. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that if you 12 were to admit today that you told Mark Dew that you had 13 seen semi-automatic weapons at the base or even at the 14 Park, you would be fearful, rightly or wrongly, of the 15 ramifications you might face as a result of making that 16 kind of admission. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 18 -- I'm not -- 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't -- I 20 don't think that's a proper question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 that that's a question. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just leave
701 it. Do you want to comment? No? 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In that case, 3 I'll -- I'll make a supplemental here, Mr. Commissioner. 4 The witness has given evidence in terms of 5 what he told Constable Dew, right? That evidence is that 6 he used the word "probably". The last document My Friend 7 has referred to is an actual transcript, with which he 8 has agreed, which also uses the word "probably". 9 There's one (1) statement where he didn't 10 use the word "probably", which was to a newspaper 11 reporter where he may or may not have said that. He 12 doesn't know for sure. Short of calling the reporter and 13 examining her notes, we don't know either. 14 Now he's being asked if, you know, if his 15 evidence would be completely different or, if in light of 16 all the consistencies that are already there, whether he 17 would be fearful to say something completely different 18 which brings in all of these extraneous factors, when in 19 fact, there's no inconsistency to deal with here. 20 There may be a question of argument. 21 Maybe it'd be worthwhile calling back this witness once 22 we have heard from officer Dew, who doesn't appear to be 23 entirely consistent himself. 24 But, we'll find that out in due course. 25 But, this is simply not a proper question, you know,
711 saying in light of all of this documented consistent 2 evidence, wouldn't you be fearful to have said something 3 else? 4 Well for seven (7) -- for nearly ten (10) 5 years, he's said the same thing. Why ask him now if he'd 6 be afraid to say something different? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes, 8 Mr. Millar? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I think that -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- he's been very 12 consistent about what he said and the -- but I think that 13 the -- the -- and so I agree with Mr. Henderson, to that 14 extent. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 16 to rephrase the question or put the question differently 17 or... 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: First of all, 19 Mr. Commissioner, there are two (2) points. This witness 20 has now acknowledged, before this Inquiry, that he told 21 the reporter, that's why I took him back to Page 43, that 22 he told the reporter with no uncertainty that there were 23 firearms at the Army base, and that was as of August the 24 3rd, 1995 when that article was published. 25 My point, in drawing up the prior
721 inconsistent statement, was to show that this witness is 2 not consistent as to his representations as to the 3 presence or absence of firearms. And, I think I've made 4 that point, and I'm going to go on. 5 My next issue that I wanted to address, 6 sir, is that this witness, regardless of what he has said 7 in the interim, following his conversation with Officer 8 Dew, but this witness, today, has a motive not to be 9 candid about what my client contends he told Officer Dew. 10 And that motive is that he would be 11 fearful of certain ramifications if he were have -- to 12 have to admit, within a public venue, that he had told 13 Officer Dew that he had eyeballed semi-automatic weapons 14 at the base. That, sir, is my point. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that -- on 16 that issue, I think that's a fair question. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he had 18 told them, that's the thing. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Agreed. But in 20 my respectful submission, I can still put to him that for 21 him to make that kind of admission, he is fearful rightly 22 or wrongly, but fearful of certain ramifications that 23 would follow from it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, why 25 don't you try to ask the question again. I'm sure you're
731 confused, right? 2 THE WITNESS: No, she did -- I -- she's 3 just saying, Am I scared of anything if I -- if I say 4 what she wants me to say? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 6 THE WITNESS: Is that what it is? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 8 to leave it or that or do you -- would you prefer to 9 rephrase the question so that he's answering your 10 question? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, that's a 12 rather succinct way of putting it, but -- 13 THE WITNESS: That's -- 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- perhaps I'll 15 tweak it a little bit. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: I'm suggesting to you, sir, that for 19 you to tell us today that you had conveyed to Officer 20 Dew, that you had seen semi-automatic weapons at the Base 21 or anywhere for that matter, on the occupied lands, you'd 22 be scared to do because of the ramifications that would 23 flow from making such an admission? 24 A: No, I wouldn't. 25 Q: Okay. I want -- I want to pursue
741 that a bit. We know, sir -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a -- 3 yes, Mr. Henderson? You got an answer to your question. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes I did, sir, 5 and I -- I'm entitled, in my respectful submission, to 6 challenge his credibility on that point and I'd like to 7 do so with a series of very tight questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 9 where you go -- let's see where you're going. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: We know, sir, that you were assaulted 14 for the reason that you identified before us, the reason 15 being, you were assaulted by Stewart George because you 16 wrote a letter that was published in the local paper 17 referring to the Occupiers as jerks and animals. Can we 18 agree on that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. You claimed to us, sir, that 21 you did not tell Officer Poole, that uniform officer, 22 that you had been physically assaulted, because in 23 essence, you didn't want to stir up the pot and give the 24 police some concern about the situation. Is that fair? 25 A: Yes.
751 Q: In particular, because this is an 2 important point, I want to take you back to what you 3 actually said to us. Mr. Commissioner, I'm referring to 4 Page 29 -- excuse me ninety-nine (99) of the transcript 5 from last Thursday. And in response to a question by my 6 Friend, Mr. Millar, you had the following. Question -- 7 excuse me, you said the following: 8 "Q: And why did not tell the police 9 officer about Mr. Stewart George 10 hitting you? 11 A: That goes back to when I first 12 stated that when I saw the other 13 officers yelling at -- kind of throwing 14 comments at the dump truck -- and I 15 thought I was going to when I pulled up 16 there. I was really mad, but then I -- 17 I was thinking there's -- I think Worm, 18 if he is drunk, he's probably going to 19 give them more trouble and I'm -- I'm 20 not going to report that he assaulted 21 me. That's all the cops would need to 22 hear -- that someone got assaulted 23 along that road. So, that's why I 24 didn't report that." 25 That was your evidence last Thursday.
761 Correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So, the reason you did not disclose 4 it, at that time, to the police, was that you didn't want 5 to give them a piece of information that might stir the 6 pot, if I can put it that way? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I really didn't want that being 10 written down. 11 Q: I beg your pardon? 12 A: I really didn't want that being 13 written down anywhere. 14 Q: Right. See, I'm going to suggest to 15 you, sir, that you did not disclose that detail to the 16 police because you were concerned, rightly or wrongly, of 17 the ramifications for you if you had made a complaint 18 about an assault. 19 A: Your assumption's wrong. I'm sorry. 20 Q: I find that curious, sir, because you 21 told us on Thursday that when you saw Cecil Bernard 22 George, after this altercation with Stewart George, you 23 didn't tell him about the assault either. Right? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And, certainly, you wouldn't have to
771 worry about his perspective about stirring up the pot; 2 correct? 3 A: Can you repeat that? 4 Q: Sure. You've told us that the reason 5 you don't tell the police is you're worried about their 6 having that piece of information and that might ratchet 7 up the situation. Right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Well, surely that could not have been 10 the justification or -- or rationalization as to why you 11 did not convey it to Bernard George? 12 A: I didn't feel it was important to 13 tell Bernard that. 14 Q: You did not feel that that was 15 important? 16 A: No. 17 Q: See I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 18 that you didn't tell it to him either because you didn't 19 want it out in the community that you were making an 20 allegation of assault against Stewart George. You can 21 agree or disagree. 22 A: I disagree with your assumption. 23 Q: See, also, sir, it's curious because 24 if your explanation is true as to why you did not 25 disclose that to Officer Poole, it's entirely unclear to
781 me, why in January of 1996, when the occupation at the 2 Park and the presence of the police have long passed, you 3 were still inclined to deliberately mislead them about 4 whether or not you had been hit. 5 A: I didn't want that being put down on 6 any records, that Natives were fighting Natives. 7 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 8 that the reason you did not volunteer it, is again, you 9 did not want it out there, in public purview, that you 10 had made a claim of assault because you were concerned, 11 rightly or wrongly, about the ramifications that followed 12 it. 13 A: No. I'm going to have to disagree 14 with you again. 15 Q: There's another piece of paper, sir, 16 that I've put in front of you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And, for the benefit -- benefit of My 21 Friends, it's Document number 1011-112. And again, I've 22 provided a copy to you, Mr. Commissioner. It's a 23 document, sir, entitled News Release, Stoney Point First 24 Nation number 43 Aazhoodena, and my -- I cannot -- I 25 apologize to those present, I can't pronounce the next
791 word. 2 For immediate release, dated Tuesday, 3 October the 22nd, 1996. And, it is an account, and it's 4 unclear who the author is, but it's an account of an 5 update of the status of charges that were facing a number 6 of the occupiers. 7 I'm interested, sir, in the final 8 paragraph. Stewart George's trial was adjourned to 9 Wednesday, October the 23rd, by the Crown request because 10 their material witness did not appear before the court. 11 The judge issued a material witness warrant for Kettle 12 Point Band Councillor, Gerald C. George. 13 Now, first of all, Mr. George, were you 14 subpoenaed in relation to the charge that Stewart George 15 faced? 16 A: Yes, I was and I was told to be there 17 on a certain date. 18 Q: And the date you were told to be 19 there, was that October the 21st? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Did it come to your attention, sir, 22 that a material witness warrant was issued for your 23 arrest? 24 A: No, it wasn't. 25 Q: That didn't come to your attention?
801 A: No, it didn't come to my attention. 2 I was told by the police to be there on a certain date 3 and I was. This is an official court document. They 4 have an official court document that might have stated in 5 there. 6 Q: So, I gather then, what you're 7 telling us is that the author of this document got this 8 wrong, that no material witness warrant was issued for 9 you? 10 A: What I'm saying, is you don't have an 11 official court document saying that. Issuing an official 12 court document. All I was told, to be there on that date 13 and I was there. And I didn't -- 14 Q: And what happened, sir, -- 15 A: -- and I -- I didn't even have to go 16 into the courtroom. The police told me, he agreed to 17 whatever it was, and I got to leave. 18 Q: And, that was when you learned that 19 Mr. George was pleading guilty to the offense of mischief 20 to property? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, if there's information out there 23 that you were supposed to be in court earlier and you did 24 not show up, you don't know anything about that? 25 A: No, I don't. I was told to be there
811 on a date and I was. 2 Q: Sir, I'm suggesting to you that it 3 may be that you're being truthful about a number of 4 matters before this Inquiry, but that you are not being 5 truthful as to the full breadth of information that you 6 conveyed to Officer Dew, on the evening of September 6th, 7 1995. 8 A: You say that so nicely, but I'm going 9 to have to disagree with you. 10 Q: Mr. Commissioner, those are my 11 questions. Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. I think Ms. Karen Jones is next to cross- 14 examine; Karen Jones represents the OPPA. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 19 is your time estimate lengthened, shortened or not 20 changed as a result of what's happened so far? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 22 believe I'll be about two (2) hours. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 24 think that's what you estimated. 25
821 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 3 A: Good morning. 4 Q: As the Commissioner said, my name's 5 Karen Jones and I'm one (1) of the lawyers who represents 6 the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 7 Mr. George, I wanted to take you back and 8 just to ask if you can help us with a little bit more 9 information about the structure of the band and its 10 council. You told us that, since 1992, you were a 11 Councillor. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, can you just tell us, in 1992, 14 when you were elected Councillor, how many Councillors 15 there were at the time? 16 A: There was nine (9) of us. 17 Q: Okay. And there was a Chief that was 18 also elected as well. Is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, how often does -- or at that 21 time, did your band have elections? 22 A: Every two (2) years. 23 Q: Okay. And who could vote in those 24 elections? 25 A: At first, it was just on-reserve band
831 members, but after the new law, all band membership can 2 vote -- they can do a mail-in vote. 3 Q: Okay. So, you didn't have -- 4 A: So -- 5 Q: -- to be in residence in order to 6 vote? 7 A: Basic -- I think the -- the new 8 election rules just come in -- they -- the probably used 9 them in 2002 - the mail in votes? 10 Q: Okay, so at the time when you were 11 elected in 1992 and I take it throughout the nineties, it 12 would have been people who were on the reserve could 13 vote? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And, that included people who 16 would have identified themselves both as being Kettle 17 Point and Stoney Point or Kettle and Stony Point? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And, there's a document in the 20 materials that we've looked at, Mr. George, in which you 21 said that you were one (1) of four (4) people on the 22 committee working to have land returned and by that you 23 had meant the Base. That was in one (1) of the newspaper 24 reports that we looked at last week. Do you recall that? 25 A: Yes. There -- there were several
841 different committees that were struck before -- I -- I 2 can remember before the incident and after the incident. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: There was a large committee formed 5 after the incident. 6 Q: Okay, but I -- I take -- I took it 7 from looking at that newspaper report, that since 1992, 8 that is since you were elected, you had been working on a 9 committee that was involved in getting the land returned? 10 A: Probably in '93/'94. 11 Q: Okay. And were you chosen to sit on 12 that committee or did you volunteer? Can you help us 13 understand how that was struck? 14 A: I think back then we just 15 volunteered. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: We would -- we'd post out for some 18 community members to sit on it as well. 19 Q: Okay. And, was the Chief a member of 20 that community or did you report to him or can -- can you 21 think back and remember how that was set up? 22 A: He wasn't a member of the committee. 23 He just heard the reports when we have Council meetings. 24 Q: Okay. And, so far as you knew at 25 that time, would you have been updated or would you have
851 known the status of negotiations that were going on about 2 the Army Camp? 3 A: Yeah. The Committee would probably 4 be informed what was happening. 5 Q: Okay. And, you also told us last 6 week that you had been on the policing committee since 7 1996? 8 A: Yeah, the Kettle Point Police 9 Committee. 10 Q: Okay. And, prior to 1996, that is 11 prior to the time you sat on the policing committee, but 12 you were a councillor, would you and other councillors 13 have received reports from the police? 14 Would you have gotten information from 15 them on an ongoing basis about policing matters and the 16 kind of things they were involved in? 17 A: Just with things to do with the 18 community. Council really never got involved in the -- 19 the like, police issues, but there was still a committee 20 there but I wasn't a part of it. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: So, the Committee Chair would give a 23 report to Council during the Council meetings. 24 Q: Okay. And, would those reports 25 include the kind of matters that the police had been
861 looking into or were concerned about -- 2 A: Some -- 3 Q: -- sort of a status report? 4 A: As long as it didn't break the 5 confidentiality -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- like with investigations. 8 Q: Right. Okay. And I understand that 9 between, for example, 1992 and 1996, when you were on the 10 policing committee, that the police were under the 11 direction and the control of the Band? 12 A: I was on there from '96 onward. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: We -- we couldn't direct them what to 15 do. It was a -- I believe it was a tri-partheid kind of 16 agreement with the province. 17 Q: Okay. And, you also answered a 18 couple of Mr. Millar's questions last week about the 19 Three Fires Confederacy. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And, I wondered could you give us a 22 little bit of background on the Three Fires Confederacy; 23 who's involved in that? 24 A: That would be the -- the three (3) -- 25 the three (3) Peoples that make up the Three Fires would
871 be the Ottawa, the Ojibway and the Pouteoutami. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: The -- well just call it -- we're all 4 called the Anishnaabe -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- but that's the Three Fires. 7 Q: And, I wanted to ask you, Mr. George, 8 some questions about the Army Camp, the Base, and a 9 little bit about the history of it. And, I just want to 10 make it clear that if you don't know the answers to some 11 questions, you should just say so. And, if you do, it 12 would be helpful to hear what you say about it. 13 I understand that we'll hear some 14 evidence, that in 1980, the federal government paid $2.5 15 million to the Band as compensation or at least partial 16 compensation, for the expropriation of the Base. Was 17 that something that you knew about? 18 A: I didn't really -- I think I was only 19 about maybe fifteen (15), sixteen (16) at the time. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: I think I remember, yeah, everyone 22 got a share of money. 23 Q: Okay. Now, it -- it appears from 24 some documents in the database, and I'll take you to one 25 (1) in a minute, in fact there's a copy of it on your
881 table, that it looks like there were some bad feelings, 2 that the money went to the Band and it was shared amongst 3 the Band rather than going to the Stoney Pointers who 4 were relocated; was that something that you knew about? 5 A: There was some incidents in the early 6 80s. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: 90 -- or '80 to '83. I can't hardly 9 remember, but there was a friction between some of the 10 and the Chief in Council at the time. 11 Q: Okay. About the allocation of that 12 money? 13 A: Well, I can't really remember what 14 it was about, but they distributed half of that 2.5 15 million -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- and they put the rest into a -- 18 an account -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And, I think that's -- I think the 21 people wanted the rest of it given out. I'm not sure. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: But I think that's what it was. 24 Q: Okay. 25
891 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And, I want to move ahead a little 4 bit now, Mr. George, to 1993 and to the occupation of 5 the base by some of the members of the Band. 6 And, I think you told us that the Band 7 and the council were not told about the occupation, 8 until after the fact. Is that -- 9 A: No, I -- I wasn't even told about 10 it. 11 Q: You weren't -- you weren't even told 12 about it? 13 A: No, I didn't know about it until I 14 heard it on -- 15 Q: Okay. And I take it that that 16 occupation, then, was not done with the approval of the 17 Band or the council? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And, did you have any 20 information at the time about why the base was occupied? 21 What was your understanding at the time about what was 22 going on? 23 A: I think after that I -- I was -- I 24 learned that it was done just to move negotiations 25 forward or make a statement that it's been too long in
901 the Army's hands. 2 Q: So, to advance the land claim? 3 A: Something to that effect -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I think mostly it was a protest to 6 tell the Army that they'd been there too long and it 7 would -- should be given back. 8 Q: Okay. And, was another reason for 9 the occupation that some of the older locatees wanted to 10 go home? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Some of them wanted to move back 14 onto the land. 15 Q: Right. And from -- you've told us 16 that you were on the base, in that summer of 1993 for a 17 period of time. And that -- were you aware whether or 18 not those -- the original occupiers of the base, were 19 they all Locattee or Locattee descendants, so far as you 20 knew? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And, you've told Mr. Millar a 23 little bit about the fact that, from your perspective, 24 when you were on the base, it looked like there were 25 sort of three (3) people that were in charge. There
911 was -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- Nobby and Maynard T. and -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- Carl George. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Do you know whether or not, after 8 you moved off the base, that is on or about August the 9 1993, do you know whether that leadership structure 10 changed? 11 A: I -- I really couldn't tell. It was 12 hard to get anything -- any kind of information out. 13 I -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I think -- I think Maynard T. was in 16 control for a little while after that. 17 Q: Okay. When you said it was hard to 18 get information out, what, if any, ongoing discussions 19 or ongoing communications were there between the Band 20 and the council and the occupiers? 21 And -- and maybe we can sort of start off 22 with the early days and work on a little bit. So in 23 1993, when Nobby and Maynard T. George and Carl George 24 were -- had leadership roles there, did they or do you 25 know, whether there were ongoing discussions between
921 them and the Band or the council? 2 A: In 1992, Maynard -- Maynard T. was 3 elected same time I was to -- as a Band councillor -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And he would -- he would bring up 6 issues at the Band meetings and I think Robert 7 approached Tom, not in an official, but just to talk to 8 him you know, when he saw him at the gas station or 9 wherever -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Or at the stores. 12 Q: Yeah. So from what you knew is, I 13 take it, there would have been informal, ongoing 14 communication? 15 A: Yeah, just talks. Any of the old 16 people would go out and talk to Tom. 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: The chief. 19 Q: Yeah, Tom Bressette? So some of the 20 old people who were -- had gone to the base would be 21 talking to Tom on an ongoing basis? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Yeah. And the other thing I wanted 24 to ask you about, when you were on the base, you 25 mentioned in your evidence last week that Robert talked
931 to the Camp Commander quite a bit, on the base? 2 A: Yeah, they would have discussions 3 with him, just to keep -- just to keep a dialogue going 4 I guess. 5 Q: Sure. And, I take it that if there 6 were problems that the occupiers were facing, that 7 Robert would be able to talk to the Commander about that 8 and they'd be able to sort it out? 9 A: Yeah, that's. 10 Q: Yeah. And then you told us that -- 11 a little bit about later on and one of the reasons that 12 you moved, was because -- you moved off of the base, was 13 that, sort of a nature of some of the activities, 14 changed. You talked a little bit about guys riding 15 around and being pushy and that kind of thing? 16 A: It was just getting -- politics was 17 starting to get more in the way too. So -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- I was getting kind of 20 uncomfortable with some of the -- I was being asked a 21 lot of different questions when I was there and things 22 like that. 23 Q: What -- what kind of -- first of 24 all, I just wanted to -- first of all, from what I 25 understood you say last week, some of the conduct,
941 amongst some of the occupiers, changed. You had told 2 us -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- that it seemed like there was a 5 fairly strict control that Nobby and Carl and Maynard T. 6 had in terms of what they considered the appropriate 7 conduct to be, in terms of getting along and not causing 8 trouble and that kind of thing. 9 And, when you talked about guys riding 10 around, was that the kind of conduct, in your view or to 11 your understanding, that the leaders at the time, that 12 is Nobby and Carl and Maynard T., would have condoned or 13 wanted to see happen? 14 A: I think it -- it started changing. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: People were taking more of a little 17 hard line attitude. 18 Q: Okay. And, when you say taking a 19 hard line attitude, did that mean that their conduct 20 changed towards the military personnel? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And, you had talked about 23 some guys riding around. Is that a small group of 24 people that were engaging in that conduct or was that 25 almost all of the occupiers at the time?
951 A: Just -- just a few. 2 Q: Okay. And, I anticipate, Mr. 3 George, that we're going to hear some evidence coming up 4 that the majority of the conduct, in terms of being 5 aggressive towards the military or having incidents that 6 involved confrontation to the military, at least from 7 the military point of view, really did involve, for the 8 most part, a few people and those were the people that 9 stayed at or around Dudley George's trailer, was that 10 your experience? 11 A: I really -- people lived in the 12 campground -- campground -- 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: I really can't say, but I know it's 15 -- it's just a few of -- the majority of the people just 16 lived in their trailers and -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- just like we were but these other 19 guys were starting to push it a little bit too much. 20 Q: Okay. Right. And, from your 21 perspective, was it mostly the younger guys who were 22 staying at the base, that were pushing it? 23 Q: Okay. And, the document that I had 24 referred you to, Mr. George, is a document for the 25 information of help of coun -- of the counsel here, it's
961 Document Number 700-132 and you'll see a copy on your 2 table. And, it starts off -- it's a press release 3 issued by the Kettle and Stoney Point Council. Can you 4 see that? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And it's dated May 7th, 1993. And I 7 -- I wanted to ask you some questions about this press 8 release because I know that you were a councillor at the 9 time. And, you'll see the first paragraph of it says 10 that: 11 "The chief and council of the Chippewas 12 of Kettle and Stoney Point do not 13 sanction the occupation of Camp 14 Ipperwash that's being carried out." 15 And, from your perspective does that -- 16 is that accurately reflect the use of the Band and 17 Council at the time? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And, then it goes on to say 20 that "Chief Thomas Bressette and 21 elected council of the community 22 however police support the return of 23 the lands at Camp Ipperwash." 24 And it says: 25 "We have an open line of communication
971 on the entire issue in regards to the 2 Stoney Point lands and that we are 3 satisfied that our discussions with the 4 Federal Government are progressing." 5 And, at that time in 1993, do you know 6 the status of the negotiations that were taking place 7 between the Band and Department of National Defence to 8 be able to -- return of the land? 9 A: I don't think there was 10 negotiations, there was just discussions. 11 Q: Discussions? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: The Chief was also trying to get a 15 meeting with D&D. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: The Minister. 18 Q: Okay. And, it goes on -- on the 19 last sentence of that paragraph it says: 20 "It concerns me that Maynard T. George 21 and his followers will hamper these 22 discussions, which could prove to be 23 detrimental to the entire Band 24 membership of Kettle and Stoney Point." 25 Was there a view, among the Chief and Council at the
981 time, that the occupation of the Base could interfere 2 with discussions or could hamper them in some way? 3 A: You're asking -- I -- I really can't 4 remember, but it's just -- I think Maynard sent a couple 5 of letters out that were contradictory to the Band's 6 position -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- if I can remember correctly. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And, that's just what we were 11 worried about that the D&D would be getting a different 12 view of what we were -- 13 Q: Okay. So there would be different 14 messages going to D&D -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- from different people. 17 A: We were kind of -- we were concerned 18 that the D&D was getting two (2) separate kind of -- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- ideas. 21 Q: Okay. And, then it -- I just want 22 to take you to the first numbered paragraph where it 23 says: 24 "The Chief and Council would like to 25 clarify the following issues as well.
991 Under Number 1, equal distribution 2 payments were made to every man, woman 3 and child, who was eligible at the time 4 when compensation payments were handed 5 out in 1980. Clearly identifiable 6 records are available for review." 7 From your knowledge and your experience, 8 Mr. George, in 1993, were issues still being raised 9 about how that 1980 compensation money had been 10 distributed among the band? 11 A: Yes, even today there's still 12 questions, that they count the Stoney Point money. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Even today there's questions about 15 that. 16 Q: Now, when you say they call it the 17 Stoney Point money -- 18 A: It's that fund to be set aside. 19 Remember I said that -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- half of it was distributed and 22 the other half -- 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: -- was put in a -- 25 Q: Okay, so there's a million and
1001 something -- 2 A: I'm not sure. 3 Q: I take it, some amount of money in 4 trust? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And, there's a view, is it, that 7 that money ought to belong to the Stoney Pointers and 8 not to the Band in general? Or what -- what's the issue 9 there? 10 A: I'm not sure -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- if -- I'm not really cer -- I 13 hear -- it's like what I said, the Army getting all 14 mixed up, like I hear different things. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: What people want that money used 17 for, I -- I really can't -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- say. 20 Q: Okay. So, from your perspective and 21 as of 1993, there was disagreement about how that money 22 ought to be used? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And, who ought to get it? 25 A: Yes.
1011 Q: And, that issue still hasn't been 2 resolved today? 3 A: No, people still talk about it. 4 Q: Okay. And, in -- on the issue of 5 compensation, I -- I have another question, is that I -- 6 anticipate that we'll hear some evidence down the road 7 about -- also some controversy or concern about monthly 8 payments. Are there payments that go from the Band at 9 Kettle and Stoney Point, to the Stoney Pointers, on a 10 monthly basis? Is there an allocation that's made that 11 you know of? 12 A: When I was Council I don't think 13 there was anything there. I don't -- I don't know now. 14 I'm not on Council any more. 15 Q: Okay. And, can you tell us, Mr. 16 George, if you know, in 1993, when this press release 17 was issued, did the Council or the Band support the 18 eviction of the Occupiers from the Base? Was that 19 something that there was discussion about, should 20 happen? 21 A: I really can't remember. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: But -- but I know even in Council we 24 -- we were debating whether it was right or not because 25 I was staying there myself and --
1021 Q: Right. 2 A: -- Bonnie would come down and visit 3 and Maynard would be there and say if it was -- 4 Q: When you say, "Bonnie" you mean 5 Bonnie Bressette? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And "Maynard" you mean -- Maynard 8 T.? 9 A: Yeah. And, other Councillors would 10 come down and visit too, because their families were 11 there so. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And, we'd have a meeting and we'd 14 say how can really say we want them kicked off, because 15 we're down there too, eh? 16 Q: So there were different points of 17 view about what ought to happen. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And, I take it from what you just 20 said, some people were in favour of having or trying to 21 have the occupiers evicted, -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- and others weren't -- 24 A: No. No that -- I don't think the 25 eviction thing ever came up.
1031 Q: Okay. Maybe -- maybe -- 2 A: From -- from what I can remember. 3 Q: Okay. So more there was sort of 4 discussion and debate about what to do? 5 A: Yeah. Basically that's -- that's 6 what was going on. 7 Q: Okay. And, I also understand that 8 we'll hear some evidence, Mr. George, that as of 1993 9 the Band, the Kettle and Stony Point Band itself, was in 10 need of more space, that you needed more industrial and 11 more land space for the Band. Is that right? 12 A: Yeah. We had a large infrastructure 13 project, called the Eagle's Landing. We completed that 14 but still with our population -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- probably over a third of our 17 population is off Reserve and we needed more land. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: Now, interior Kettle Point, even 20 with the -- the drains going in, we have a -- a lift 21 station, it's still quite swampy, you know, it really 22 costs like mega bucks to develop it, and even -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- cutting new roads through there, 25 so, that's one of our concerns that we needed more land.
1041 Q: Right. And, I also take it, in 2 1993, that there was frustration as how long the 3 negotiations were taking with DND about the return of 4 the Base. 5 A: Yes, especially among the 6 Locattee's, the older folks. 7 Q: Sure. Yes. And, am I right, Mr. 8 George, that the Chief and Council at that time, was of 9 the view that the matter about the Army Base should be 10 resolved through negotiation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And, after the -- there was 13 an occupation of the Base, am I correct that some of 14 those people that occupied the Base wanted to have a 15 greater voice in the negotiations? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And, that some of those 18 people, that had occupied the Base, wanted money for 19 compensation for the Expropriation? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Okay. And, you talked a little bit 22 earlier, Mr. George, about sort of the concern that you 23 and the other Councilors and the Chief had about 24 different voices speaking to DND. And, was it a concern 25 of yours or of Council's that having the occupiers on
1051 the Base, trying to, or speaking to the DND directly, or 2 communicating directly, would undermine the role of the 3 Chief and Band in its negotiations, with DND? 4 A: No, Canada took a position earlier, 5 early on when we start talking, said they only 6 recognized the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- and they'd only deal with the 9 Chief and Council. 10 Q: Yeah, okay. 11 A: In an official matter. 12 Q: Okay. Okay. Did the Council and 13 the Chief have a concern that the occupiers, acting 14 independently, would put into question, the legitimacy 15 of the Band, to resolve the matter on behalf of all of 16 the Band? 17 A: We're just concerned with some of 18 the things that Maynard Travis was putting out. 19 Q: Okay. What -- what are some of 20 those things? Can you think back to 1996? 21 A: He was just sending letters and 22 saying that we didn't speak for him. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Things like that. And, it was just 25 -- it's not a really big concern, but it was a small
1061 concern. 2 Q: Okay. When it said, not speak for 3 him, was he -- was he sending out correspondence about 4 himself or was he sending out correspondence on behalf 5 of the occupiers? 6 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. He'd send out 7 correspondence, a lot of correspondence, he -- you 8 probably know about -- you probably saw a lot of the 9 stuff if you looked into the history. 10 Q: Okay. And, in your view, did the 11 occupation of the Base help or hinder the negotiations 12 or discussions that you were having with DND at the 13 time? 14 A: That's a hard one. I -- because I 15 stayed there -- 16 Q: Right. 17 A: -- I really -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- I'm not sure if it hindered it 20 or helped it, either way. 21 Q: And, that was -- 22 A: It might have -- it might have 23 pushed along a little bit. 24 Q: Okay. But, that was part of the 25 conflict, I take it, you felt as a councillor staying at
1071 -- at the base? 2 A: Yeah, I mean, even to this day it's 3 hard for me to talk about that because people want me to 4 go one way or the other and I -- I won't get into that 5 argument. 6 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, it's ten 7 (10) to 1:00, and if you could -- by my clock, your 8 clock may be different. Could you give me some 9 direction about when you'd like to break for lunch, 10 because I -- I'll work around that -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was 12 thinking about 1:00 or 1:15. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I'll carry on for a 16 bit, then. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is it -- 18 is that -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: No, that's fine. 20 Excuse me. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: We heard earlier this fall, Mr. 24 George, that when the occupiers went on to the base, 25 that there was an original agreement that the occupiers
1081 could be in a two hundred (200) by two hundred (200) 2 area, and so as not to interfere with the training or 3 the use of the camp. 4 Was that something that you were aware 5 of? 6 A: I -- I can't remember that. 7 Q: Okay. In any event, I take it, that 8 quite quickly, the occupiers expanded into a larger area 9 when you were on the -- when you were on the base? 10 A: Well, I think -- I think even if our 11 mo -- even if our -- after I moved out, they still 12 stayed in that one (1) strip. 13 Q: Okay. And that was along -- 14 A: For a long time. 15 Q: Okay. And, that was along the rifle 16 range? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And, as a result of the 19 occupiers being on or around the rifle range, and based 20 on your knowledge of the base because you had worked 21 there for some time, the rifle ranges in the training 22 areas, I take it, then, had to close in 1993? 23 A: Yeah. They -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: -- they wouldn't be able to be used,
1091 because of safety issue. 2 Q: That's right. And, at that time, in 3 1993, the base was being used as a training facility for 4 both the military and for police? Is that right? 5 A: Yes, I think so. 6 Q: Yeah. And, you've told us there was 7 a cadet camp there, in the summer? 8 A: I'm not sure if there was a cadet 9 camp in 1993. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I can't really remember. 12 Q: Okay. When you were at -- and we've 13 heard some talk about the cadets. I understand that 14 they are a fairly young group of people. Do you know 15 what ages -- 16 A: Yeah -- 17 Q: -- cadets are? 18 A: Officer cadets were from sixteen 19 (16) to nineteen (19) and the two weekers would come in, 20 they were anywhere from ten (10) years old to thirteen 21 (13) -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And, the regular cadets that would 24 stay there for the six (6) weeks were thirteen (13) to 25 sixteen (16), I believe.
1101 Q: Okay. And, I take it that quite a 2 number of cadets would be there over the course of a 3 summer? 4 A: Yeah, I -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- I can't really re -- really 7 remember the numbers. I think about -- 8 Q: Somewhere around -- 9 A: -- Fifteen (15) -- 10 Q: -- two thousand (2,000)? 11 A: Fifteen hundred (1,500), two 12 thousand (2,000). 13 Q: Yeah. And, they would have come 14 from all over Ontario? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Yeah. And, you gave us some 17 information last week, from Mr. Millar's questions, 18 about the activities of the cadets and where they went 19 and some of the things they did. 20 From your knowledge, were there areas 21 that they didn't go, or they weren't permitted to go, 22 because of fears of unexploded ordinates or other 23 perils? 24 A: I -- from what I can remember, I 25 think the only place they couldn't really go is the --
1111 the anti-tank rocket range. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Where the old tanks are. 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: That's -- I think that's the only 6 area I can remember that they weren't supposed to go 7 near. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Or the munitions bunkers. 10 Q: Okay. And, I understand that a 11 number of local Kettle and Stoney Point Band people were 12 employed at the base. 13 A: Oh, there was a lot of people 14 working at the base. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: There's one -- probably one of the 17 main employers in the summer. 18 Q: It was a probably at that time the 19 major employer -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- of the band. 22 A: Yeah, I'd say a major employer of 23 the young people at First Nation. 24 Q: Right. And Mr. Millar had asked you 25 some questions about a document, that is Document
1121 101116. And that was the document that had the draft -- 2 about the draft agreement with the Ministry of Natural 3 Resources about the use of the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall that document? And 6 from your perspective you were one of the people that 7 worked on drafting the agreement. Is that right? 8 A: I think our -- we had a Band 9 Administrator -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: And -- 12 Q: That was Liz Thunder? 13 A: Yeah. And a couple of other staff 14 people worked on it and they just brought the drafts to 15 council for us to go through and approve. 16 Q: Okay. And, from your perspective, 17 did that draft document represent your and the Band's 18 concerns at the time, about the Park? 19 A: About the -- both parks really. It 20 covered -- 21 Q: Pinery Park and Ipperwash Park. 22 A: -- Pinery and yeah. 23 Q: Because I -- I went through that 24 document fairly carefully and I didn't see any mention 25 in that document of burial grounds in the Park, either
1131 Ipperwash Park or Pinery Park. Did you or any members 2 on council or the Band that you knew of, did you have a 3 concern, as of 1993, about there being burial grounds in 4 either Ipperwash Park or Pinery Park? 5 A: I -- I really can't remember. I -- 6 I was just involved in with the plants and the animal 7 life and things like that. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: I can't remember if they were 10 talking about the burial ground down at Ipperwash Park. 11 Q: Okay. As of the time that that 12 document was being put together, did you have any 13 knowledge of a burial ground in the Park? 14 A: Me -- myself, no. 15 Q: Okay. And, was that an issue for 16 council, at the time? 17 A: I can't remember if -- if it was 18 brought up. It might have been brought up in a working 19 team. Liz Thunder and her team, but no reports to 20 council. I can't remember them bringing it up to us. 21 Q: Okay. And, I want to move onto 1990 22 -- actually, Mr. Commissioner, it's just about 1:00 and 23 I'm hitting 1994, this might be a good time for a break, 24 if that's okay with you? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay.
1141 That's fine, let's break. Let's break for lunch now and 2 we'll reconvene approximately 2:15. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 4 adjourned until 2:15. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 1:02 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 2:15 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Are 14 you all set, Mr. George? 15 A: Yep, go ahead. 16 Q: Thanks. I just wanted to back and - 17 - and make sure I'm clear about a couple of things. 18 As of the time that the draft agreement 19 was put together regarding the use of Pinery Park and 20 Ipperwash Park and the draft document was brought to 21 Council, did you or did anyone on Council that you 22 recall, raise any issue about burial ground in the Park, 23 that is, Ipperwash Park? 24 A: I don't know, I can't really 25 remember that.
1151 Q: Okay. And I'd asked you a little 2 bit about some of the pressures that the Band was under 3 in the early 1990s in terms of land use and that kind of 4 thing and I understand that there were also similar 5 efforts being made by the Band in terms of economic 6 development? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Were there discussions in the 9 early '90s, or around that time, about the possibility 10 of using the Base if and when it was returned for a 11 casino? 12 A: No, we were -- we were talking about 13 buying a chunk of land at Grand Bend -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- along the beach and maybe going - 16 - putting a casino there. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But I really can't recall put -- 19 talking about putting a casino on the Base because it 20 would -- we kind of -- there was asbestos in those 21 buildings. It was supposed to have been removed back in 22 the middle to late '80s, but as far as we're concerned, 23 probably most of the buildings in that Base was going to 24 have to be levelled. 25 Q: Okay.
1161 A: That was our -- that's what we were 2 talking about anyway. 3 Q: And I take it after August of 1993, 4 that is after you left or stopped living at the Base, 5 that you kept up with what was going on at the Base? 6 A: Yes, I -- yes, I still -- 7 Q: Sure. And I think, from what you've 8 said that would have happened in a number of ways, one 9 (1) was that you were there from time to time? 10 A: Yeah. I'd go -- still visit my 11 uncle once in a while. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Or other people. 14 Q: And you had friends and family who 15 were living on the Base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And people from Kettle Point would 18 visit people at the Base and vice versa? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: So there was movement back and forth 21 and people would talk about what was going on? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I take it that it would also be 24 in your interest as a Councillor to keep abreast of what 25 was going on at the Base?
1171 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: This -- this sort of feels like slow 5 motion sometimes, Mr. George, and I'm sorry for it, but 6 I now wanted to move on to 1994. 7 And I understand that in February of 1994 8 that Federal Government announced that the closure in 9 return of Camp Ipperwash to the Kettle and Stony Point 10 Band was part of its 1994 budget. Do you recall that? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: Yeah? 13 Q: For a about a month before that -- a 14 month or two (2) before that we were having a -- there 15 was another land mass that we -- that belonged to us, it 16 was called the Elliskillen Properties near Petrolia in 17 Ontario and we were -- we had a demonstration going on 18 there, me and Bernard and we were all there and our 19 Chief, Chief Tom Bressette went and he got to meet with 20 Jean Chretien in Sarnia. 21 That's where Mr. Chretien informed Tom 22 that he was going to move on that and a couple of months 23 down the road he was good to his word and -- 24 Q: And made that announcement. 25 A: Yeah.
1181 Q: Yeah. And I understand that one (1) 2 of the issues at that time, that was in 1994, was that 3 an environmental assessment needed to be done and an 4 environmental cleanup needed to occur -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- before the Base could be 7 returned? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And I understand that there 10 was some issues about whether or not the Band would be a 11 partner in conducting that assessment? 12 A: Yeah. We -- we were talking with 13 the Sarcee bands in Calgary and they had some 14 arrangement with the Department of National Defence to 15 train their -- their Band members and to clean it, as -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- as the clean up progressed, so we 18 were kind of looking at following that model. 19 Q: Okay. And I understand that the 20 Department of National Defence had offered to pay the 21 bands legal and environmental costs and that there was 22 some dispute about how much money was actually involved 23 in that? 24 A: Yeah. That -- that dispute I think 25 is still going on actually.
1191 Q: Okay. And that's because the Band 2 had put together a budget for the legal and 3 environmental costs that was of several hundred thousand 4 dollars? 5 A: I -- I can't remember the amount but 6 yeah, they had a budget. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And I understand, Mr. George, we may 12 hear that in 1994 there was a report on the Sarnia TV 13 that there were a number of what were called the Stoney 14 Point Group Natives at the Saugine Reserve and that they 15 had moved there because of a concern about their homes 16 being -- I think the language used was trashed by people 17 on, like, Kettle Point. 18 Would -- do you recall in 1994 that there 19 was an issue or that -- that sort of tensions were 20 increasing between -- and I'm sorry about the language 21 because I know it's a difficult indis -- divisive thing, 22 but between at least some Kettle Pointers and some 23 Stoney Pointers? 24 A: Some -- some -- 25 Q: Kettle Pointers and some Stoney
1201 Pointers. 2 A: When the Stoney Pointers moved to 3 Saugine? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Because of that? 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: I'm trying to remember here. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: There could have been Maynard T's 10 mother, he got and moved away from the Kettle Point 11 Reserve because he was allocated a house and it was on 12 the side road and -- and I think they -- I think they 13 just moved to Stoney Point, if I can remember correctly. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But there wasn't an open argument or 16 anything that I can really remember. Just the odd 17 person would have words with each other over the -- 18 mostly over the money -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- that was in the bank. 21 Q: Okay. And I also anticipate that 22 we're going to hear evidence that in 1994, that there 23 were increased incidences on the Base of the occupiers 24 there drinking, using all-terrain vehicles and trucks to 25 disrupt training, there was more use of firearms and
1211 there was more vandalism, and that a decision therefore 2 was made that the DND couldn't ensure cadets' safety and 3 that the cadet camps could no longer be held there. 4 Do you recall hearing about those 5 incidents and recall hearing that a decision had been 6 made not to have cadet camps at the Base in 1994? 7 A: Just, I think I just remember a 8 couple incidents of people being a little too 9 aggressive, but I didn't read that in the paper, I think 10 I just heard that from the Band members. 11 Q: Okay. And when you said about 12 people being a little too aggressive, what did you 13 hear? 14 A: Just -- just them driving, like, 15 their car toward an Army jeep and swerving real fast, 16 and things like that. I never read that in the news, I 17 just heard that from other Band members. 18 Q: Okay. And there was also issues 19 raised in 1994 and in at -- particularly in and around 20 November 1994, about vehicles being stolen in the area 21 and being found on the base or being found burned at the 22 base, as well as stolen property was located there. Do 23 you recall that? 24 A: I think we got a report from our 25 police on something like that. But it was just a small
1221 little blurb in one of their reports. It was nothing 2 really major. 3 Q: Okay. One of the documents that we 4 have, Mr. George, and the material is a document that is 5 entitled minutes of the meeting held 18th day of 6 November 1994 at the township of Bosanquet. 7 A: Bosanquet. 8 Q: Sorry. 9 A: Bosanquet. 10 Q: Okay, sorry. And for -- that is 11 Document Number 2002-444 and it -- from according to the 12 minutes of that meeting a number of people from the 13 township were there. A number of representatives from 14 the OPP were there including John Carson and Charlie 15 Bowman, people from DND were there, Rosemary Ur 16 (phonetic), the MP at the time. And, according to the 17 minutes, you were there and Norm Shawnoo was there. 18 Do you recall attending a meeting in the 19 Municipal Offices in November? 20 A: I really can't right now. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: But I was probably sent there by 23 council, me and Norm. 24 Q: Okay. I understand reading from the 25 minutes that an issue with the municipality was that it
1231 wanted the Federal Government to mend the boundary 2 fences. That is the fences along -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 4 Ms. Jones. Mr. Henderson is on his feet. Yes, Mr. 5 Henderson. 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I wonder, 7 Commissioner, if -- I'm not sure that Mr. George has 8 this -- this particular document in front of him, do 9 you? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In that event, 12 if My Friend is going to put it to him and his presence 13 is alleged, perhaps he should have a copy. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 15 a copy of it, Ms. Jones. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't have an extra 17 copy but maybe Mr. Millar could put it up for us. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 202444, is 19 that the number? 2-0-0-2-4-4-4? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: 2002444. Yeah. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: And, Mr. George, we'll just take a 24 minute. If you can see that on the screen and -- and 25 just have a chance to review that.
1241 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll move it up, Mr. 4 George. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: That's really hard to see. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Is it easier for you -- can -- 12 A: I could -- I read it. 13 Q: -- can you -- can you read that 14 okay? 15 A: I think it had to do with the 16 accesses beside the front gate. There's only one acc -- 17 official access to front gate. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: I think they were concerned with the 20 two (2) accesses along Highway 21 and the access along 21 Outer Drive down by the beach. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: And the one on Matheson Drive. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I think they wanted to try to
1251 control who was coming in and out. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I -- I think mostly that's what it 4 was about. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall hearing at that 6 meeting that a number of stolen cars had been found on 7 the base that had -- had gained entrance into the base 8 through Outer Drive? 9 A: From what I can remember, we were 10 told by our -- our police that the OPP said they found a 11 car. I can't remember anything about several cars. 12 Q: Okay. Because I -- I anticipate 13 we'll hear evidence that there were between ten (10) and 14 fourteen (14) cars. It's -- and I'm just wondering if 15 that was something that you were aware of. 16 A: I heard -- we -- we were told that a 17 car. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And, over the years you hear 20 rumours, but, we never really gotten any official thing 21 about stolen cars being taken on the base. But, it 22 wasn't really official from the -- 23 Q: Okay. And, you'll see on the second 24 to last paragraph, at the bottom, that -- that it says, 25 S/Sgt. Charlie Bowman updated the group on the incident
1261 that occurred on November the 10th and it goes on to 2 talk about municipal workers, on a road crew, being 3 fired at and that three (3) gunshots were heard. Do you 4 recall hearing about that? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He didn't say, They 6 were fired on. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: They heard three (3) 9 gunshots. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Three (3) gunshots were heard, 13 workers vacated the scene and the OPP were contacted. 14 Do you recall hearing about that? 15 A: I really can't remember that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: We were having so much meetings 18 during that time, like, I was getting sent here and 19 there and it was just -- I'd have to -- I should have 20 really brought, maybe, my minutes from '93/'94/'95. 21 Q: Do -- do you have the minutes from-- 22 A: I've got some minutes from '93 and 23 '94. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I didn't get to look through the
1271 rest of my -- I got a big pile -- a whole stack of 2 papers I start ripping through since last Thursday and - 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- I did find minutes in there. 5 Q: Okay. And those are minutes from 6 Band meetings? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Well, if I wanted to I could just go 10 up to the administration office and there's -- we have 11 big books, like binders, of 1993 minutes, '94, '95, '96, 12 '97. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And I could go up there and go 15 through them, too, if I wanted. 16 Q: Okay. And, would those minutes 17 contain issues that were raised in discussions, for 18 example, about concerns about the Base or the Occupiers 19 or what was going on? 20 A: There would probably -- there would 21 probably be everything in those minutes. 22 Q: Yeah? 23 A: All issues. 24 Q: Okay. And, were you aware or did 25 you hear about incidents where cottages that were on the
1281 east side of the Base, in the area around Outer Drive, 2 were burned in the winter of 1994? 3 A: Yes, I can remember there were some 4 cottages down there that were damaged. I can't remember 5 if they were burnt up or not, but damaged because some 6 of -- we also felt that that part where the cottages 7 were built was supposed to be part of Stoney Point as 8 well. 9 Q: Right. And perhaps if we can just 10 wait for one (1) minute and if Mr. Millar would be good 11 enough to put P-40 up on the screen for us? I'm sorry. 12 Make you work. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: From what I remember -- 17 Q: Okay, and just -- just so I can help 18 out a little bit here, Mr. George, I'm just going to 19 indicate -- Mr. Millar's put up on the screen, P-40, 20 which is the diagram of Ipperwash Military Reserve and 21 you're pointing to the northeast corner of the -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- Military Reserve and I take it 24 that's the area just off Outer Drive, up by the lake? 25 A: Yeah, we -- even when we were doing
1291 our studies, we thought that that was supposed to be 2 part of Stoney Point as well. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: Right -- right to the water's edge 5 and I believe some cottages were built there. 6 Q: Right. And, those were the cottages 7 that were burned, or at least were -- there were some 8 problems with in the winter of 1994. 9 A: I can't really remember what year it 10 was, but yeah, I remember hearing reports of that. 11 Q: Okay. And, do you remember hearing 12 reports of vandalism, within those cottages too, in 13 1994? 14 A: I mostly heard reports of vandalism 15 and break-ins. I didn't hear -- I can't really remember 16 of them being burnt. 17 Q: Okay. And, as part of your keeping 18 in touch with what was going on at the Base, did you 19 have any knowledge or information, over the course of 20 1994 and 1995, about any changes in the leadership 21 there? 22 You had told us early on that there was 23 sort of Nobby and Maynard T. and Carl George, and I'm 24 wondering if you can help us in late 1994/early 1995 25 what the, sort of, structure was in terms of government
1301 -- governance at the Base? 2 A: I -- I really couldn't say who was 3 in charge down there at the time. I know after a while 4 Carl George moved back to Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I can't really remember when he 7 moved back. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: It might have been late spring '94, 10 maybe late fall '94. I'm not really sure, but -- 11 Q: Okay, could it have been in March of 12 1995? 13 A: It could have been. I -- I really 14 can't remember. 15 Q: Okay. And do you know what, if 16 anything, happened to the governance structure after 17 Carl George moved back to Kettle Point? 18 A: I really couldn't say. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I really don't know what the 21 structure was down here from -- probably the middle of 22 '94 onward. 23 Q: Okay. And, from the middle of 1994 24 onward, were there -- you had talked earlier about some 25 of the communications between the occupiers at the base
1311 and the Band at Kettle and Stony Point and the council. 2 As of the middle of 1994 and on, in your 3 experience, did those communications stay about the 4 same, or did they decrease or increase? 5 A: Decreased. 6 Q: Okay. And, from your perspective, 7 in fact, were there any formal communications between 8 the Band and the occupiers, from the middle of 1994 on? 9 A: I really can't -- can't remember -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- if there's any official letters 12 going back and forth. I think they were sending a lot 13 of letters to the feds, the governments. 14 Q: Okay. And, I -- I just asked you a 15 few questions earlier about in 1994 -- about the 16 announcement from DND that it was returning the base. 17 And, you talked a little bit about the model that the 18 Band hoped to use, based on, I think you said, the 19 Sarcee model, of having involvement in the assessment 20 and clean up. 21 And, I take it that one of the other 22 areas that the Band wanted to be involved in, was 23 actually having local people from the Band employed in 24 the assessment and the clean up? 25 A: Yes.
1321 Q: Yeah. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And, I wanted to move on now, into 6 May of 1995, in particular the spring and the summer of 7 the 19 -- of 1995. 8 And, I anticipate that we are going to 9 hear evidence at this Inquiry that in 1995 there was a 10 significantly increased tension on the base between the 11 military personnel and the occupiers and that there were 12 an increased number of conflicts between them. 13 Did you have or did you get information, 14 or did you hear about that over the course of the spring 15 and the early summer? 16 A: Just sketchy reports. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Nothing really that I saw myself. 19 Q: No. What kind of reports were you 20 hearing and where were you hearing them from? 21 A: I was hearing from some of my 22 cousins who still stayed there. They talked to me. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: They just said some of the guys were 25 like riding -- they'd go flying through the base, you
1331 know, it was still occupied with their cars and out the 2 other side and down the -- down the road. Just things 3 like that. 4 I didn't hear of any fighting or anything 5 like that. 6 Q: Okay. I anticipate we will hear 7 evidence that, in or about May of 1995, there was a 8 drive-by shooting around Nellie Rogers' trailer. Did 9 you hear about that? 10 A: I might have. I can't really 11 remember. 12 Q: Okay. And -- 13 A: That was in the base? 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: No, I really can't remember. 16 Q: Okay. And, I understand that in -- 17 also in May of 1995, that the firm of M.M. Dillon 18 (phonetic) had been selected by the Department of 19 National Defence to do an environmental assessment of 20 Camp Ipperwash? 21 A: Yes, I -- 22 Q: Do you recall that? 23 A: -- think I can remember that. 24 Q: And, I anticipate we'll hear that on 25 May 15th, 1995, there were some demonstrations, both by
1341 the Band and by the occupiers at Camp Ipperwash, 2 protesting against that assessment to be done by M & M 3 Dillon. 4 Were you involved in that demonstration 5 or did you know about that? 6 A: I'm not sure if I was involved in 7 the demonstration, but I can remember where the issue 8 was because M & M -- M. Dillon worked for the army 9 before -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- and it seemed like they got the 12 contract too quickly and we wanted a watchdog, another 13 contractor to keep an eye on Dillon, because we didn't 14 want like too friendly of a company that was too buddy 15 buddy with the Army to go in and just do a fast 16 assessment and say, you only need like $10 million to 17 clean it up. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: We wanted our own people in there 20 too, to make sure everything was cleaned properly and if 21 any of the soil was contam -- contaminated that was 22 moved. I think that -- that's the main issue of that. 23 Q: Okay. And, I anticipate we'll hear 24 evidence that at the same time as Band members were 25 demonstrating by the front gate of Camp Ipperwash, a
1351 number of Occupiers had their own demonstration and that 2 they had put signs up saying, "Stoney Point" -- things 3 like, "Stoney Point not Kettle Point" and "Kettle Point 4 Go Home, Liars have no Honour", that kind of thing. 5 Do you recall that or did you hear about 6 that? 7 A: I can just remember the things -- 8 just -- just words that are painted on the buildings 9 down there, things like that. 10 Q: Words painted on the buildings 11 around -- sorry? 12 A: Just in the -- in the range out 13 there. 14 Q: Okay. Is some of -- some of that 15 language still on the buildings today? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. There's one (1) sign, for 18 example, that's still up there or maybe -- maybe you can 19 tell us if it was there at the time talking about Mike 20 Harris and Tom Bressette. It says, it -- it looks like 21 -- are shit lovers? Is that the kind of thing it was 22 saying? 23 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure what it 24 says, but I think that was put up after '95. 25 Q: Okay. What kind -- what kind of
1361 writing was put on the buildings in 1995? 2 A: Just, "Canada, where were you in 3 1812", things like that. "Mike Harris and Tom Bressette 4 are lovers" -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Just little kid stuff, you know, 7 nothing -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- nothing really threatening or 10 anything. 11 Q: Okay. Were you or the Council 12 concerned, in the spring or summer of 1995, that there 13 was a potential for violence if the land that is the 14 Base was returned to the Band and you'd then have to 15 deal with issues concerning the Stoney Pointers? 16 A: I can't really remember, but -- but 17 at the time we were mostly concerned about getting 18 negotiations going over the -- the assessment. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: We -- we really didn't think about 21 the -- the Base -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- the built-up area, at the time. 24 Q: Okay. And, I understand in or 25 around that same time that the Band applied for an
1371 injunction, stopping M&M Dillon from performing the 2 environment assessment. Do you recall that? 3 A: Somewhat. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I somewhat recall that. We -- we 6 felt we had to do something or we kind of thought the 7 Army was going to get to do its own thing -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- and that's what we were concerned 10 about that they were just going to do a real fast 11 assessment and just say, You only need like, ten (10) to 12 $15 million dollars to clean that up when it -- when we 13 really knew that it was going to cost a lot more than 14 that. 15 Q: Okay. And, over the course of the 16 summer of 1995 -- so I'm talking about June, July and 17 early August -- did you hear or were you aware of 18 reports of problems on the beach, both the Ipperwash 19 Park beach and the beach by the Base between Occupiers 20 and members of the public or Occupiers and -- and the 21 Military Police? 22 A: Yeah. I -- I and some of the -- 23 some of the Council was aware that incidents were 24 happening along the beach close to the Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park. Like, a lot of the people from the
1381 Park would -- it's a really nice beach -- the Stoney 2 Beach -- so a lot of them would go for walks along there 3 and we heard things were happening. No official 4 reports, we'd just get, like, hearsay back from other 5 Band members. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And, we'd hear reports -- some 8 reports would come from our police, that would come from 9 the OPP through just talking with each other and -- and 10 we'd get reports of that. Yeah, I was -- I was hearing 11 reports -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- that things were happening. 14 Q: And, I take it from what you've said 15 earlier and from your letter to the editor that we've 16 seen that those kinds of incidents caused you concern? 17 A: Yeah, they caused me concern. 18 Q: Yeah. In fact, quite grave concern? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yeah. And you were asked some 21 questions about your concerns and how you expressed them 22 last week. And I took it from what you were saying that 23 you were concerned that the conduct of a fairly small 24 number of the occupiers was conduct that could both 25 colour how the community and others saw the Band?
1391 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it that one (1) of the 3 concerns you had was that if you or others from the Band 4 didn't express your disapproval of that kind of conduct, 5 that you would be taken to condone it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so you thought it was important 8 to let people know that you and others didn't approve of 9 the conduct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And I anticipate that we're 12 going to hear evidence that as the spring and the summer 13 progressed on the Base, that the tensions and the 14 problems between the occupiers and the military 15 increased to such an extent that the military police 16 were no longer able to patrol the base and they were at 17 one point restricted to the built-up area. 18 Were you aware of that? 19 A: I -- I can't remember hearing that - 20 - that they were restricted to Base. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Seems kind of funny to me because 23 the MP's were quite the big -- big guys, eh, and -- 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: -- but they probably had their
1401 orders from Ottawa or CFB London. 2 Q: And were you aware or did you hear 3 that the number of military personnel at the Base was 4 decreasing? 5 A: Yeah, I heard that. 6 Q: Okay. And were you aware that in or 7 around July and August of 1995 plans were being made and 8 were being carried out for the military to leave the 9 Base? 10 A: I can't really remember if -- if I 11 heard reports that the military was getting ready to 12 pull out. 13 Q: Okay. Was that a concern or would 14 that -- was that a concern for you and other members of 15 the Council that the military could pull out of the 16 Base? 17 A: I really didn't think they were 18 going to pull out of the built-up areas. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I kind of thought that because it 21 was still under DND control that they would have to stay 22 there to upkeep the buildings -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and that -- the sewage and 25 everything. I didn't think they were going to leave.
1411 Q: Okay. 2 A: Myself anyway. 3 Q: Okay. And I anticipate we'll hear 4 evidence that in the spring of 1995 there was a new 5 captain at the Base, Commander Smith? 6 A: Yeah. I think he was a young guy. 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: I can't remember his name. 9 Q: Yeah. And do you recall having some 10 contact with him or the Council having more contact with 11 him than with some of the previous commanders? 12 A: I really can't. 13 Q: Okay. Did you or were you aware 14 that Commander Smith arranged for a native sensitivity 15 training on the Base in July of 1995? 16 A: I can't remember that. 17 Q: Okay. I understand that an Elder 18 from Kettle Point, Dick Bressette, attended on behalf of 19 the Band; were you aware of that? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Sorry. 23 Q: Okay. And I also anticipate we'll 24 hear evidence that a plan was made to hold a meeting at 25 the Oneida Reserve starting on August 26th, to establish
1421 a plan as between the Band and DND for the environmental 2 assessment and clean up and to set up a plan that would 3 allow the Band police to patrol the beach and training 4 area and to allow the military police to leave the Base; 5 were you aware of that meeting -- 6 A: I do remember that -- 7 Q: -- that meeting? Okay. 8 A: I can't -- what year was that? 9 Q: It was in July of 1995? 10 A: No, I can't remember that. I'll -- 11 I'll look through my minutes. 12 Q: Okay. Were you aware of Bruce 13 Elijah and Bob Antone being on the Base to assist the 14 military? 15 A: I heard they were on the Base. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I don't -- I didn't know what their 18 function was. 19 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 20 as of the summer of 1995, the Band had no intention of 21 initiating a land claim for the Park at that time, its 22 real interest was the Base? 23 A: Not at that time. 24 Q: Right. And that there was no claim 25 made during that period of any burial grounds in the
1431 park by the Band? 2 A: I don't think so. I can't really 3 remember. 4 Q: Okay. And you talked a little bit 5 last week about in August of 1995, when the occupiers 6 took over the built-up area. And we heard evidence 7 previously that there were somewhere between a hundred 8 (100) and a hundred and fifty (150) people there, both 9 who were occupiers in from Oneida, Muncey, Raven's Town, 10 and a number of other areas, and that the intention to 11 take over the built-up area was widely known. 12 I understood from listening to your 13 evidence that you didn't know about it? 14 A: I didn't. 15 Q: And, to your knowledge, was Council 16 or the Chief told about it beforehand? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And you've talked a little 19 bit about your concern about what you saw when you went 20 down to the Base, about fridges and stoves being loaded 21 and taken away. 22 And I take it from your evidence that you 23 didn't recognize the people or the Natives who were 24 taking the fridges and stoves and other things from the 25 Base and driving them away?
1441 A: I did a drive by on 21 and I saw a 2 couple of trucks but I didn't recognize the people. 3 Q: Okay. And I wanted to get back to 4 the issue of the outsiders on the Base. And you've told 5 us a little bit about your concerns about Les Jewel, and 6 you've mentioned it a number of times. 7 I wasn't sure that I understood what your 8 concerns about Les Jewel were. You've told us that he 9 was from the States. Did you know where he was from? 10 A: I'm not really sure where he was 11 from. 12 Q: Okay. Did you know when he got to 13 the Base or when he started living there, or if he was? 14 A: No, I don't. Maybe '94. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Maybe real early '95. I'm not 17 really sure. 18 Q: Okay. And what did you understand-- 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: Sorry, we're just having -- Mr. 24 Millar just said you spoke about Russ Jewel and I had 25 understood you were concerned --
1451 A: Les Jewel. 2 Q: -- about Les Jewel. 3 A: Yeah, Les. Les Jewel. 4 Q: Yeah. Yeah. 5 A: Les Jewel. 6 Q: Yeah. What -- what was your concern 7 about -- you've talked about him and his influence on 8 the younger people in the Base, what -- what were you 9 concerned he was doing or saying? 10 A: I knew that he was doing -- talking 11 with Bernard when -- this is long before Stoney Point 12 and I was down at the cabinet shop with Bernard and 13 what he was talking about didn't really make sense to 14 me. 15 Q: What was he saying? 16 A: He was saying things like, Soon 17 you're going to see all the rocks along the lake 18 starting to shake and jump and that's when we're going 19 to take action. And things like that. 20 And then -- then when I heard he was on 21 the Base some of my cousins again told me that he was in 22 there saying that kind of same talk like that, like, 23 It's time to take action, and things like that. 24 And I don't want to seem to be a ho -- 25 like timid or things like that, that I don't want to
1461 take action for land claims but I didn't think it was 2 right pushing it so hard and fast. 3 And things eventually happened from that 4 and my concern with Les Jewel is that I feel he was 5 giving the people the wrong -- the wrong message. 6 Q: And what -- what was the message, 7 just -- 8 A: Just to keep pushing ahead, like, 9 aggressively, things like that. 10 Q: Okay. And were you concerned or 11 were others on the Band and Council concerned that it 12 was starting to turn violent? 13 A: It wasn't only me, it was some 14 Council and Band members, we had a big meeting and where 15 the Elders got up and there was concern that she was 16 getting asked to leave the beach at Stoney Point by 17 someone who wasn't even from our First Nations and -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- that's when we were really coming 20 to a head that we had to take action, maybe ask them to 21 leave or what not. 22 Q: Okay. And I wanted to spend a few 23 minutes and take you through the minutes and see if I 24 can clarify a few things in the minutes. I think you 25 have them before you in that binder.
1471 A: The community? 2 Q: Minutes for the August 1st, 1995 3 meeting. 4 A: Which tab would that be? 5 Q: Sorry. It's your Tab 3, I believe. 6 A: Tab 3? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Tab 4. 8 THE WITNESS: Tab 4? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: General Band Meeting. 10 I'm sorry. August 1st, 1995, 3000374. It's -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's Exhibit P- 12 43. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 THE WITNESS: We were mostly concerned 17 with -- her name is Gladys Lunham, and I think she's in 18 here somewhere. Somewhere. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 22. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: If I can help you out here a little 25 bit. On page 21, I think you talked about a few people,
1481 Verna Shawkence and Gladys Lunham. And if you look at - 2 - on page 21, there's the start of Verna Shawkence and 3 on page 22 at the -- halfway down there's the start of 4 Gladys Lunham. 5 And I wanted to take you through what 6 they said, at least briefly. But there were some 7 questions I wanted to ask you before then, if I can do 8 that. 9 And again, Mr. George, this is the 10 minutes of what people said. And I wanted to ask you 11 some questions about what happened at the meeting. And 12 you may -- you may know what people are talking about 13 and you may not. And if you don't, you should just say 14 so. Okay? 15 When I look at page 1 of the document, it 16 starts off with some comments from Chief Tom Bressette. 17 And you'll see about the sixth line down, it says: 18 "I have had meetings with Carl. He has 19 been in touch with people who have 20 strong feelings about Stoney Point." 21 And do you know whether or not he was 22 referring to Carl George there? 23 A: Yeah. That would be Carl Tul -- 24 Topmore (phonetic) George at the time. 25 Q: And I take it that Chief Tom
1491 Bressette and Carl were having ongoing discussions about 2 what was going on at the Base? 3 A: Yeah. Carl and Tom were -- they 4 worked with each other when they were young -- 5 Q: They worked -- 6 A: -- they really know each other good, 7 so. 8 Q: Okay. And on page 2 at the top 9 Chief Tom Bressette is talking about his discussions 10 with the Department of National Defence. And I take it 11 that you knew and the other Councillors knew as of 12 August 1st, '95 that they had withdrawn from the Base? 13 A: Yes. Yeah. 14 Q: And that there were ongoing 15 discussions about the Base and that the only group that 16 they would -- that the Department of National Defence 17 would negotiate with was the Kettle and Stoney Point 18 Band? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And, if I can ask you to turn to 25 page 7 of the document.
1501 A: Right. 2 Q: Partway down the page there is, it 3 looks like some comments that were made by Norm Shawnoo, 4 and it talks about the individuals on the Committee who 5 are, I think, who are dealing with the issue of the 6 Base; is that right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I take it that as at -- at that 9 time in 1995, there was Gladys Lunham, Bob Bressette, 10 Norm Shawnoo, Gerald George, Debra Bressette and Gary 11 Bressette? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And in 1995 in August, would 14 you, that -- that is, that Committee have been dealing 15 directly with the Department of National Defence or did 16 most of those direct contacts happen through Tom 17 Bressette? 18 A: Most of them happened through -- 19 through the -- Tom in Council, as a whole. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And sometimes Liz -- Liz Underwood, 22 she'd receive the faxes from DND and she'd take them to 23 the Chief and then they'd come to Council and we'd talk 24 about it and send a response. 25 Q: Okay. And all of that would be
1511 outlined in your Council -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- Minutes. 4 A: A lot of stuff would be in the 5 Council Minutes. 6 Q: Okay. And those are documents you 7 say are available from the Council? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Is that right? Okay. 10 And turning -- at the bottom of page 7, 11 you'll see that there's underlined, it says, first 12 woman, and then it looks on my document, it looks like a 13 Martha. Can you see what that is? Or can you recall 14 who that person was? 15 A: I -- I was trying to read that -- 16 Q: Yourself? 17 A: -- and I -- I couldn't really make 18 it out. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Usually our Band Recorder, if she 21 forgets somebody's name, she just goes First Woman, 22 Second Woman, and we -- we're trying to tell her that -- 23 can you get their names, but -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- I guess it was her habit.
1521 Q: Okay. I was looking at that, 2 because that woman says, if you turn over to the top of 3 page 8, she says: 4 "My final comment, if people at Kettle 5 Point want another OKA, another Wounded 6 Knee, remind them of the loss of life. 7 There's no point. Should we be filled 8 with statistics of death or another 9 successful land return? With great 10 sorrow I don't feel safe to go on 11 Stoney Point, fear because of other 12 Anishnaabe brought into strong arm, 13 represent criminal element. We are 14 Ojibwe, we can have land returned 15 peacefully." 16 Do you know what she was talking about 17 when she made those references to an Anishnaabe brought 18 in to strong arm, represent criminal element? 19 A: We were getting a lot of comments 20 like that. And I really -- she must have had some kind 21 of episode at Stoney Point with someone, to say that. 22 I'm not really sure. If I could make out the name -- 23 Q: It would help you. 24 A: -- I could -- I could probably -- 25 Q: Okay. And if you turn over to
1531 page 11, there's a section under Chief Tom Bressette. 2 And there's a section in the middle of that page that I 3 didn't understand or I wondered if you could help us 4 with. And it starts off: 5 "Having addressed certain individuals, 6 they are complaining because they were 7 told to get off the land at Stoney 8 Point. There needs to be a spirit of 9 cooperation by everybody. Individuals 10 have been told that. One of the people 11 who lobbied, raised money for the 12 cause, was told to get out of here. 13 We're trying to pull people together." 14 And it goes on a little bit to say: 15 "I don't want this fighting that's 16 going on. I believe that individuals 17 who are going to Stoney Point are being 18 told they can have this land. There's 19 no respect for legitimate claims. It 20 is not theirs to give." 21 Do you know what was being referred to? 22 A: At the time we were being told that 23 some of the people who are moving in there, I believe 24 some people from Moraviantown in Oneida were being told 25 that they can stay there after Stoney Point's returned.
1541 But that -- I think that's what that was 2 referring to. 3 Q: Okay. And was that something that 4 you or other members of the Band Council agreed to? 5 A: I didn't agree to it, neither did a 6 lot of the Band members, because everyone has location 7 tickets for their families, and we're saying, well, 8 where are these people going to live if they're being 9 promised? 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And that -- and that's what our 12 concern was, eh. 13 Q: Okay. And on page 15, at the top of 14 the page, Chief Tom Bressette is responding to a concern 15 that had been mentioned before about wanting to have the 16 chance to meet with the people at Stoney Point and have 17 discussions with them. 18 Then what he says at the top is: 19 "I agree. But if we go and say, Get 20 off our land, and they refuse, what do 21 we do? There are a lot of Warriors in 22 there." 23 Do you know what Chief Tom Bressette was 24 referring to or did you have knowledge or information 25 about Warriors in -- at the Base?
1551 A: He's probably just referring to the 2 -- the non-Band members who were on the Base. 3 Q: Okay. And did you have any idea or 4 did the Council have any idea at that time about how 5 many people were on the base? 6 A: We didn't even have a -- a number. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: We just knew there was a -- more 9 come in there. 10 Q: Okay. More -- 11 A: Especially after the Base was taken. 12 Q: Okay. So, as of August, for 13 example, July and August 1995, there were more 14 outsiders? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: From what you knew? 17 A: That's what a lot of people are 18 coming to Council and complaining about to us. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And we said, We really can't do 21 anything about it because we have no jurisdiction on 22 that Base. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. So, I take it from that 24 that as of the summer of 1995 the Kettle and Stony Point 25 Band and the Council really had no ability to control or
1561 affect what was going on at the Base? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And was that a concern to you 4 and to other members on the Council, that you had no 5 ability to control what was going on at the Base and 6 very little information about what was going on? 7 A: It was a concern. 8 Q: Okay. And if we turn to page 22, 9 there's the statement from Gladys Lunham. And you'll 10 see at the start of Gladys Lunham's statement she talks 11 about keeping track of what's going on at Camp 12 Ipperwash, both because of interest and because her dad 13 came from there. 14 And she says, partway through her 15 paragraph: 16 "Last Thursday I went down to the beach 17 and they told me they didn't want me to 18 sit there. There was a man across from 19 me, a stranger, and I asked what he was 20 doing there. He said his name was 21 Bruce Elijah and he was hired by the 22 Kettle Point Band to talk to the 23 People. He said he was a shit 24 disturber. I heard enough in a few 25 minutes, he was telling people to go
1571 the OKA way to settle -- to settle 2 things, there were other people from 3 different Bands." 4 Did you have -- first of all, did you 5 know who Bruce Elijah was -- 6 A: I just knew -- 7 Q: -- at this point? 8 A: I just knew he was from Oneida, he 9 was supposed to be a spiritual teacher or something for 10 the Oneidans. 11 Q: Okay. And was he someone who was 12 hired by the Kettle Point Band? 13 A: I don't think we hired him. I think 14 he was supposed to, like, report to us. 15 Q: Okay. Was he there representing you 16 in some way? 17 A: No, no way. 18 Q: Was he someone that you had asked to 19 come and speak on your behalf or deal for you? 20 A: No. Not in that sense. I'm not 21 really sure. I'd have to go back in my minutes and see 22 if he was hired for something, but I don't -- I can't 23 recall that he was. 24 Q: Okay. And when you heard Gladys 25 Lunham, did you and/or other members of the council have
1581 concerns about problems arising because of his being 2 there? 3 A: We had problems with a lot of non- 4 Band members who were there. 5 Q: With a lot of non-Band members who 6 were there? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Is that -- 9 A: Like -- like if you can go back to 10 Page 16, Earl Bressette is also -- was also -- he was on 11 council for thirty-six (36) years and he was a senior at 12 the time, and Earl Bressette even -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- had some stuff at the bottom of 15 that paragraph. And that's what mostly got me quite 16 angry at that meeting that a lot of our old people were 17 getting told things like that, down at that Base. 18 Q: Okay. And you had told us that you, 19 yourself were told that you couldn't be at the Base. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Who told you that? 22 A: I was told that by several people. 23 Q: Okay. You've told us about one (1) 24 instance when you went down to the base in August and 25 you were told that you couldn't be there. Were there
1591 other times you were told you couldn't be there? 2 A: I was told it by Robert George when 3 I was picking the loons up in 1999. 4 Q: Okay. But prior to September of 5 1995 were you told on one (1) or more than one (1) 6 occasion that you couldn't be at the Base? 7 A: No, I never experienced that. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Not before 1995, August 1st. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And I just wanted to now move on to 15 September the 4th, 1995 and that was when the Park was 16 taken over by the occupiers. 17 And I take it, similarly, there had been 18 no discussions about that at council and no approval of 19 that by the Band council? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And did you have any information 22 from the occupiers beforehand that they planned to do 23 that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. So you learned of that
1601 through the media and the band after the fact? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you told us, I think, that you 4 didn't know who the leader or leaders of the occupiers 5 were at that time? 6 A: I had no idea of the leadership 7 structure. I had -- I had no idea who was calling the 8 shots there. 9 Q: Okay. If you or someone from the 10 Band council had wanted to try and deal with or speak to 11 or see if you could resolve matters with the occupiers, 12 do you know who you could have gone to at that point in 13 time, in September of 1994? 14 A: If we would -- if the door was open 15 to talk to somebody, I -- I'd probably try to talk to 16 either Glenn or Judas. 17 Q: Glenn George or Judas George? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And you said if the door was open? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: In your view, were you welcome to do 22 that? Was the door open? 23 A: No. When we tried to deliver that 24 letter to the -- down to the Base in early August we 25 were told that we weren't wanted there.
1611 Q: Right. 2 A: So we really didn't know who to talk 3 to after that. 4 Q: Okay. And did you know of a Ronald 5 French at the time, who was related to or somehow 6 involved with the Department of Indian Affairs? 7 A: Ronald French? No, I can't 8 remember. 9 Q: Okay. And I wanted to move on, 10 then, to the events of September the 6th and you've told 11 us at one (1) point in time you were at the checkpoint 12 of Army Camp Road and Highway 21. 13 You were talking about guys going by in 14 dump trucks and yelling insults and you were asked some 15 questions about what did the OPP say or what -- what 16 were they saying, but nobody asked you, and I wanted to 17 ask you, what were the guys in the dump truck saying to 18 the OPP? Do you recall? 19 A: I really couldn't make -- I couldn't 20 make it out, 'cause he had loud music playing too. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: You know the way it is. There's 23 loud music and there's people yelling at the same time. 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: I couldn't distinguish what their --
1621 their words were. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. 3 A: Because they're -- like that road is 4 maybe about thirty (30) metres off of the Army Camp 5 Road -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- the one (1) road in the base 8 where they were riding -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: And I really couldn't distinguish 11 what their words were over the music -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- at the time, so. 14 Q: Okay. And you've talked a little 15 bit about after the incident with Stuart George meeting 16 -- going to the checkpoint and speaking to an Officer 17 Poole and then Officer Mark Dew. 18 And Mr. George, I wanted to tell you that 19 I anticipate that Officer Poole will say that when he 20 first spoke with you about the incident with Stuart 21 George, that you told him about people having firearms 22 and that you did that without any prompting and that you 23 were really concerned about it. 24 A: Officer Poole? 25 Q: Yes.
1631 A: I can't remember that. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't think. 4 Q: I anticipate he'll say that you told 5 him that there were three (3) kinds of guns that the 6 occupiers had, that there were AK-47s, with banana 7 clips, duct taped back to back; that there were hunting 8 rifles with scopes and there were mini Ruger and you 9 said that they were guns like the OPP had. Do you 10 recall that? 11 A: No, I don't, no, now we're talking 12 about AKs, too. 13 Q: Okay. And do you recall having a 14 discussion with Officer Poole that you ought not write 15 that down in your statement, because of concerns for 16 your safety? 17 A: No, I don't, I'm sorry. 18 Q: And I anticipate that when Officer 19 Dew testifies, he'll say that you took him aside and you 20 told him about the guns without his prompting. Do you 21 recall that? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1641 Q: You went on to talk about, later on 2 -- later on that night when you were on Highway 21, you 3 said that you thought or your language was, I think, 4 "I could have swore I saw people at the 5 back of the MP shack crouched down. It 6 looked like they were holding guns." 7 And I'm wondering, can you just describe 8 a little more fully what you saw? 9 A: Basically just like shadows, you 10 know -- 11 Q: Okay -- 12 A: -- how the -- the MP shack was 13 white -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And there was a light shining -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- from the Highway side -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- and you couldn't really see the - 20 - you can see the silhouette -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- and then the kind of shadow -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And that's basically what I saw. 25 Q: Okay. And could you --
1651 A: And I'm not -- 2 Q: And you said it looked like they 3 were hold -- first of all, you could tell how many 4 people were there, crouched down? 5 A: I think three (3) or four (4). 6 Q: Three (3) or four (4). And you said 7 it looked like they were holding guns. Could you see 8 the silhouette of guns? 9 A: No, they were crouched down in a 10 kind of position, like, like they'd be holding 11 something. 12 Q: Okay. And you said that you 13 couldn't tell if they were police, but you sort of 14 assumed they were because all the guys were down in the 15 Park. 16 A: Yeah, I really didn't -- there was 17 no movement in the Base. The only thing I saw moving 18 was those -- those silhouettes against the fence. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: So that -- that was my assumption, 21 that -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- if they'd be anybody, they'd be 24 police, because everybody had -- was down at the action 25 at the Park.
1661 Q: Okay. But I take it that you didn't 2 know everybody who was in the Park? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And you surely didn't know everybody 5 that was in the Base? 6 A: No, that was -- 7 Q: So that was just -- 8 A: -- my assumption. 9 Q: -- just an assumption that you made. 10 Okay. And you've told us that after September the 6th, 11 that you and others put together a barricade that was 12 meant to potentially stop or deter police from coming 13 into Kettle Point? 14 A: Yeah, and from getting to Stoney 15 Point. 16 Q: Okay. From getting to Stoney Point? 17 A: Yeah, we wanted to -- everybody was 18 angry, had to do something, so. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: So we decided to build a barricade 21 on 21 at the Kettle Point curve. 22 Q: Okay. In the documentation that 23 we've been provided by the Commission, there is a 24 document and for the assistance of Counsel it is 25 Document 2003431. And this is a document that's before
1671 you or a document that you may have seen. 2 But what -- I just want to let you know 3 what's in it and get your comment on it. It's a 4 statement from Sergeant Bill Davies (phonetic). And at 5 the last page of that, page 3, there's a listing of some 6 intelligence information that he says the OPP had, and 7 there's a date, Febu -- September 13th, at 16:25 hours. 8 And, there was an intelligence report 9 then that you had purchased a two (2) way FM radio and 10 shotgun ammunition and stated that it was for a 11 barricade. Do you recall at -- at any point in time 12 during the week after September the 6th? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: No. I -- I already had radios. 16 Q: You had your own radios -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- at that time? 19 A: I still got them, two (2), ten (10) 20 channel Motorolas -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- that you can choose the code on 23 channel ten (10). 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And, I don't know what the shotgun
1681 ammo would be for. 2 Q: Okay. At that point in time, I take 3 it that your -- your own ammunition and hunting store 4 had been closed down for a while? 5 A: I think it was -- 6 Q: Or was it still in operation? 7 A: -- it was still in operation. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I can't remember. I -- I think it 10 was but, really, nothing was going at that time. 11 Everybody was up at the barricades. 12 Q: Okay. And, after September the 6th, 13 did you go into the Park in the -- during the course of 14 the week, after September the 6th? 15 A: Just down the beach. 16 Q: Okay. Did you go in the area of the 17 sandy parking lot or the area of where the store had 18 been before it was burned or go through the bus or see 19 the car? 20 A: Just -- just for a drive-by down 21 there on West Parkway and Army Camp. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: I never went into the Park. 24 Q: Okay. And, there's a document 25 that's been provided by the Commission and what it says,
1691 the title of it is "Stoney Point Negotiating Team", and 2 it's dated January 24th, 1996. And, for the assistance 3 of Counsel, it's document 1012509. 4 And, I take it from your -- what you've 5 said earlier, that after September the 6th, 1995, that 6 there was a meeting or meetings between members of 7 Kettle Point and the occupiers, regarding the land. Do 8 you recall that? 9 A: I think we had a meeting on Kettle 10 Point at the banquet room in the school. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I'm not sure the date. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: It was with some of the occupiers 15 and Council. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: That might have been in the early 18 spring of '96. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Or, it could have been, late in '95. 21 I -- I really can't remember which. 22 Q: Okay. And, according to these 23 minutes, one (1) of the people that was in attendance at 24 the meeting is named in the minutes, Yellow Fox. And, 25 according to the minutes he said at the meeting that he
1701 had been -- what he says is: 2 "I was there with Dudley, I could have 3 got shot. I know what happened." 4 Do you recall -- I'm sorry. Sorry. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Henderson...? 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yeah. I -- I'm 8 not sure we've established that Mr. George was at this 9 meeting, nor have we, in fairness, I think, provided him 10 with a copy of anything that he or the gentleman 11 identified as Yellow Fox or anyone else might have said 12 at this meeting. 13 If this document is going to be put to 14 him, in short, he should have it in front of him. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 that's right. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Fair enough, Mr. 18 Commissioner. 19 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I can -- Mr. George, 21 I'm asking a question about it because you're mentioned 22 in the minutes as being there, but you -- you know, 23 you're surely entitled to have a chance to look at it. 24 I'm just wondering if we can put that up, Mr. Millar? 25 THE WITNESS: I don't remember anybody
1711 named Yellow Fox, though. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's about a four- 4 page document. I wonder if My Friend might -- give the 5 document to her. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 8 hard to read it on the screen. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 10 just having a copy of the document handed up to Mr. 11 George -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't see 13 it whatsoever -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- which it will be 15 easier for him to read then, for sure. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 17 Ross? 18 MR. ROSS: No cause, I'm just getting 19 the -- excuse me. 20 21 BRIEF PAUSE 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Does that refresh your memory at all 25 about the meeting? Can you recall that?
1721 A: I recall it. 2 Q: Okay. Do you recall the 3 participants at the meeting? 4 A: Yeah, I -- I don't know who the -- 5 that guy is, who calls himself Yellow Fox though. 6 Q: Okay. I take it that wasn't someone 7 that is a member of the Band? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: No, it wasn't. 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. KAREN JONES: And, I don't have any 14 other questions for you, Mr. George. Thank you. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: That doesn't mean 19 you're done. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, your 21 sure not, there's more lawyers to go. Thank you very 22 much, Ms. Jones. 23 I've lost track of who's left. Who still 24 has to go? Mr. Downard? 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes.
1731 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Anybody 2 else other than Mr. Downard? Yes? And then Mr. 3 Anderson, if necessary. 4 Do you want to take a break now? Let's 5 take a break now and then deal with Mr. Downard. It's 6 3:30, let's break until a quarter to 4:00. We're going 7 to go to five o'clock, so we should be able to finish. 8 Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 3:31 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 3:50 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed, please be seated. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 20 Q: Sir, my name's Peter Downard and I 21 appear for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris and I 22 just want to ask you a few questions on a number of 23 subjects that have been touched upon in your evidence, 24 so far. 25 Sir, when Cecil Barnard George was here,
1741 he testified that in 1995, there were, in his 2 estimation, which might have been high, in his view, 3 about three thousand (3,000) members of the Kettle and 4 Stoney Point Band, including persons who resided on 5 Kettle Point and Stoney Point lands and off those lands. 6 Does that sound about right to you, or 7 can you give us your best information, or -- or best 8 estimates as to the number of members of the Band in 9 1995? 10 A: Maybe about twenty-six hundred 11 (2600), somewhere around that area. 12 Q: In 1995, about how many of those 13 approximately twenty-six hundred (2600) people, lived 14 away from the Kettle Point Reserve lands or the -- the 15 Stoney Point traditional lands? 16 A: Maybe a little bit more than a 17 third. 18 Q: So, very roughly about nine hundred 19 (900)? 20 A: Maybe a little bit less, it's around 21 there, six/seven (6/7), somewhere in there. 22 Q: So, the Band members living on the 23 Kettle Point or Stoney Point lands, would be in the 24 vicinity of seventeen hundred (1700) to eighteen hundred 25 (1800)?
1751 A: Around that area. 2 Q: You've spoken about the governance 3 structure that was in place in the Kettle and Stoney 4 Point Band and I don't want to be unduly duplicative of 5 what's gone before me. But I -- I take it that there 6 are elections every second year, in which there would be 7 some campaigning by candidates for -- for counsel? 8 A: Hmm hmm, yeah. 9 Q: And, the persons who could vote, in 10 the early '90s time frame, say from 1990 through 1995, 11 your evidence is that -- that would be a -- a list 12 composed of the persons who were residing on Reserve? 13 A: Yes, mostly, yeah. 14 Q: Mostly? 15 A: Yeah, because some people could vote 16 if they could prove that they lived on the Reserve six 17 (6) -- I believe six (6) months prior to the election. 18 Like if they -- ah, let's see. Like if they just lived 19 there, maybe in a -- if the election was called in -- if 20 the election was June, say they lived up there until 21 February and then they moved off, they could still come 22 and vote. 23 Q: In the time frame from 1993 to 1995, 24 was there any general rule with respect to whether 25 people who were occupying the Stoney Point lands could
1761 vote in those elections or not? 2 A: I forget which -- what year it was, 3 '95, '96, '97. I can't remember which year it was, but 4 we let anyone vote, any of the Band membership. 5 Q: So that may have been as early as 6 1995? 7 A: It could have been. 8 Q: Was there an election in 1995? 9 A: No, but the decision was made. It - 10 - either -- I'm not really sure when it was. 11 Q: Okay. So -- so that approach of -- 12 of letting any Band member vote did not come into 13 effect, was not practiced until -- 14 A: No, it -- 15 Q: -- after the events of September, 16 1995. 17 A: Yeah, the election was in '96. 18 Q: And, so during the period from 1993 19 to 1995, whether someone who was an occupier of the 20 Stoney Point lands could vote in the election would 21 depend upon the -- a residency rule or whether -- or the 22 six (6) month residency rule you just referred to? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And, a person might qualify and they 25 might not, depending on the facts of their particular
1771 case, right? 2 A: Yeah, they just had to write out a 3 statement that they lived on -- on the First Nation, six 4 (6) months prior. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: So, in -- in any event, there were 9 Band elections every two (2) years and I take it, then, 10 that the council, certainly you perceived it as a Member 11 of council from 1992 to 1995 that the council had a 12 democratic mandate from the Band members who had voted 13 to advance the interests of the Band, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, that mandate was renewed quite 16 regularly on a -- a two (2) year basis? 17 A: The election? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Yeah, it was a -- Indian Affairs, 20 had to follow the rules. If we didn't follow the rules, 21 someone could come along and protest the rules and the 22 election would be overturned, like, two (2) or three (3) 23 months down the road, so -- 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: -- if we didn't really follow the
1781 rules. 2 Q: And would -- would you agree that, 3 having an election every two (2) years, would assist the 4 council in maintaining contact with the will of the 5 community, since, if they fell seriously out of step, as 6 far as the will of the community was concerned, they 7 weren't going to get re-elected, right? 8 If it would help, I suggest to you that 9 having elections that regularly helped the Band council 10 to keep in touch with the wishes of their community. 11 A: Actually a Band council has general 12 Band meetings -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And that's -- we go through the 15 audit and anything else that is of issue can be brought 16 up by Band members -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: Actually the two (2) year rule's 19 kind of a hindrance, because if you're new on council 20 you just get into the swing of things and there's 21 another election there even before you -- you really 22 understanding everything. Like every two (2) years is 23 kind of a hindrance, actually. 24 Q: Okay. But, I take it you -- you'd 25 agree, though, that by having these elections every two
1791 (2) years, the community was getting a -- a pretty 2 frequent opportunity to express its opinion of the 3 council and its opinion on issues in terms of its vote 4 at the ballot box? 5 A: Yeah, you could say that. 6 Q: And, I take it that, from 1992 to 7 1995, when you were on the council, I take it that your 8 intention was to act as a councillor to advance the 9 interests of all the members of the Band, regardless of 10 where they lived, right? 11 A: I -- yeah, I was on council from '92 12 to 2002. 13 Q: Oh, I beg your pardon. I'm just 14 asking you -- I'm just asking you though about the 1992 15 to 1995 time frame -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And, since that's what we're 18 primarily concerned with. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: But I -- I take it that your 21 intention, as a councillor in that time frame, was to 22 act in the best interests of all of the members of the 23 Band, regardless of where they lived. 24 A: Yeah, even, like even Band members 25 from the city can still apply to us for educational
1801 funding and whatnot and we'll really look after our -- 2 our Band members, too. 3 Q: Right. And, as a councillor, you 4 wanted to act in their best interests? 5 A: That's everyone's -- all 6 councillors -- 7 Q: Yes, and as far as you could 8 perceive it that was the view of all the members of 9 council, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, we've heard from time to time, 12 in the evidence in this Inquiry, about a Stoney Point 13 Band as distinct from the Kettle and Stony Point Band, 14 as constituted under the Indian Act. 15 And I'm wondering if, as a result of your 16 experience and knowledge of political organization among 17 First Nations in the area, whether you can tell us if 18 you know of -- of any document, for example, that would 19 assist us in defining exactly what the Stoney Point Band 20 is, and exactly who its membership are. 21 A: I'm really sick of that argument. 22 That's basically a reason why I quit Council, because it 23 was even getting to us at home. And I -- I just got 24 sick of it. I don't -- I don't see no distinction and 25 I'm -- I'm really tired of talking about that.
1811 I think that's up to the Kettle and Stony 2 Point people to decide if there's two Bands. 3 Q: No I -- I understand that you have 4 political views on the matter, sir, and -- and just to 5 help you, we've heard references to a Stoney Point Band, 6 from time to time, but I don't think I'm misstating the 7 evidence when I say to you that we have not -- we 8 haven't heard any evidence that very clearly defines 9 just what this Stoney Point Band is or was in 1995. 10 And I'm just wondering if, as a result of 11 your experience in the political organization, in the 12 area -- in the 1992 to 1995 time frame, whether you know 13 of any documentation or any established organizing 14 principal that could tell us exactly is the Stoney Point 15 Band, what are the rules for its membership, who are its 16 members? 17 A: As far as I know, Kettle and Stony 18 Point now separated from the Sarnia First Nation in 1919 19 and from then on it was the Kettle and Stony Point Band, 20 with two (2) tracts of land. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And that's as far as I'm going to 23 answer. I don't know if there's -- I don't think 24 there's a separate Band, as far as I'm concerned. 25 Q: And I -- I take it that you don't
1821 know of any documentation that would define any separate 2 Band? 3 A: I have never seen anything 4 dissipating that we separated from Sarnia in -- when 5 Council owned two (2) tracks of land. 6 Q: I'm not -- I'm not suggesting that 7 you have. I just want you to understand, sir, I'm not 8 trying to put a contentious political position to you, 9 I'm just trying to find out about what information you 10 might be aware of or what documents you might be aware 11 of, because -- 12 A: I'm not aware of any documents. 13 Q: -- the -- the concept of the Stoney 14 Point Band seems somewhat amorphous to date in the 15 evidence. And I take it your -- your answer given, 16 while I was making my little talk there, is that you're 17 just not aware of any documents; right. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 19 he said, he's not aware of any documents. 20 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Right. Thank you. 21 So I can't -- I can't stop sometimes, sir, sorry. 22 THE WITNESS: It's nice to see everybody 23 laughing, but I know one (1) word, everybody here will 24 be against each other. 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well, once they get
1831 started they just... 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Anyway, sorry, sir. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 6 Q: Now, sir, you were -- you mentioned 7 in your evidence about a 1980 payment from the Federal 8 Government, that was compensation, or at least partial 9 compensation, for the 1942 Expropriation; right? Do you 10 recall that? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you were saying that there were 13 payment records, that would record who payments were 14 made to? 15 A: There must be. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I wasn't on Council back then, -- 18 Q: Oh. Okay, fine. 19 A: -- I was just a punk in high school. 20 Q: But in -- in fact -- but in fact 21 those -- those payments were not restricted to Locatees, 22 were they, they were to -- to all Band members; right? 23 A: Yeah. They're all Band members and 24 after, I think, a couple years, some people were 25 forgotten and then they were added and compensated as
1841 well, from what I -- from what I can remember. 2 Q: Okay. Now, in the document, which 3 is your -- at Tab 2 of your brief, which is the February 4 1994 letter to the editor that you wrote, you talked 5 about -- if I can refer to that -- Exhibit P-119. 6 And in that letter in the second column, 7 this sorry -- it goes back to what I was asking you 8 before a little bit, but, in the second column it says 9 about a third of the way down or so, you'll see there's 10 a statement saying, quote: 11 "This Stoney group says that they have 12 five hundred (500) people on their Band 13 list." 14 See that? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Did you ever see this so-called Band 17 list? 18 A: No. No I didn't -- I didn't see the 19 Band list. 20 Q: Now, I take it, it would be fair to 21 say that if -- if one were to accept and I understand 22 that you don't, in your opinion, accept that there's a 23 separate Stoney Point Band. 24 But, if one were to accept that, just for 25 the sake of argument, you would agree, of course, that
1851 that would be fairly described as a sub-group of the 2 Kettle and Stony Point Band. It would be composed of 3 people coming from within the Kettle and Stony Point 4 Band, right? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I'm not -- but 6 I don't think that -- there -- there isn't -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're 8 getting somewhat -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This witness has 10 said that there isn't a separate Stoney Point Band. And 11 that the Band is, as far as he is concerned, the Kettle 12 and Stony Point Band separated in 1919 and -- from 13 Sarnia. 14 And it's pure hyp -- it's a pure 15 conjecture and speculation, if he says there's no Band - 16 - this question. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 18 Downard agrees. 19 MR. PETER DOWNARD: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 22 Q: In your letter sir, in Exhibit P-19, 23 in the same paragraph that I referred you to before at 24 the end of the paragraph you wrote and I quote: 25 "Last year when I signed for this list
1861 I was told that it was to make sure 2 that I had relatives from Stoney Point. 3 I was not told it was for their so- 4 called, quote, "Band list", unquote." 5 Now, you recall what was going on 6 regarding the composition of this list and if you do, 7 what were you told about it? 8 A: I was just told, you know if you had 9 relatives in Stoney Point to put your name on a list, so 10 that you can see what kind of family groups existed. 11 Like my family on that side is the Clouds and so I put 12 my name there 'cause my that's my mother's side of the - 13 - I wasn't told at the time that was going to be used as 14 a -- to be pushed as a Band list for Stoney Point. 15 Q: Who -- 16 A: So it made me angry. 17 Q: Who told you this at the time? 18 A: I can't remember, I think it might 19 have been Maynard. 20 Q: Maynard T. George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I want to ask you another 23 question that it may be very difficult and you may only 24 be able to give me the roughest of estimations, but to 25 start with clearly we know that there are people who
1871 have close family ties to the Stoney Point lands, 2 yourself for example, who regard themselves as members 3 of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band, and not as a 4 separate Stoney Point Band, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you have any reasonable 7 estimation on the basis of your experience in the 8 politics of the area as to approximately in 1995 or so, 9 how many members of the Kettle and Stony Point Band had 10 close family ties to the Stoney Point lands, in the 11 sense of having near relatives who had -- had lived 12 there in the past? 13 A: I'd say about maybe half. 14 Q: About half of the membership? 15 A: One (1) of my suggestions at Council 16 in 1996 or '97, was to -- was to have a referendum to 17 see if people wanted to separate, to see -- because I 18 was really sick of the argument. I said, let's have a 19 referendum on separation. 20 And it caused quite a stir in Council, 21 and I -- I just said, I'm really sick of hearing people 22 trash this side or that side, and let's -- let's just 23 draw the line and see who wants to be who. And nobody 24 would step up, and I even found Maynard one (1) day I 25 said, You said you're separate. Send us a letter if you
1881 want your name withdrawn from our Band list and then 2 you'll be separate, and he never did. 3 So, nobody wanted a referendum down home. 4 I never heard anything else about it, so that's the only 5 way I can see even to say who's Stoney and who's Kettle 6 is to separate. But that'd be a quite a sad day if that 7 ever happened. 8 Q: Sure. And when you say about half, 9 are -- are you talking about half of the Band 10 membership as a whole, including off reserve people, or 11 about half of the people on the Kettle Point and Stoney 12 Point lands, which we estimated around seventeen hundred 13 (1700) to eighteen hundred (1800)? 14 A: Probably Band membership as a whole, 15 because a lot of them who are off reserve have ties to 16 Stoney Point too. 17 Q: So -- so on -- on your estimate of 18 twenty-six hundred (2600) people in the Band as a whole, 19 your estimate is that about half of those, or thirteen 20 hundred (1300) of those, would have relatively close 21 family ties to the Stoney Point lands? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1891 Q: Now, in the letter we were looking 2 at, which I understand was written in February of 1994, 3 if you can go back and look at that again for a moment, 4 you say in -- this is in the first column, you say in 5 the second paragraph, quote: 6 "My grandparents, uncles and my mother, 7 were forced to move from Stoney in 8 1942. So when the leaders of the 9 Stoney group says that no one (1) of my 10 elected Council speaks for the Stoney 11 Point people, this greatly offends me." 12 Now, who were the leaders that you were 13 referring to in this paragraph? 14 A: Probably Maynard. 15 Q: Probably Maynard T.? 16 A: Probably. 17 Q: Anyone else? 18 A: No, but -- because most of the 19 correspondence coming out of the area at the time was 20 from Maynard. 21 Q: And what authority did Maynard T. 22 have to speak for Stoney Point people as a whole? 23 A: I have no idea. I don't know. 24 Q: Now, in this letter, and in your -- 25 in your evidence, you -- you've made it clear that
1901 you're opposed to this notion of a separate Stoney Point 2 group. 3 In 1994 and 1995, were you alone in your 4 community in that view, or was that -- or were there 5 others who shared that view, to your knowledge? 6 A: Well, I stated my view at Band 7 meetings and I kept getting elected, so I guess other 8 people shared my views. 9 Q: Did you have any sense of the -- the 10 breadth of support that existed in a local First Nations 11 Community in opposition to the establishment of a 12 separate Stoney Point Band? 13 A: Yeah, there was opposition. 14 Q: Could -- any sense of the extent of 15 that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: But it was more than just you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you -- you perceived there was - 20 - there was at least some support for that position in 21 the public? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Enough to keep you getting re- 24 elected? 25 A: Yes, I thought this was inquiring
1911 into the shooting, not into the politics of Kettle and 2 Stony Point. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, you told Ms. Jones that as at 7 September of 1995, the Kettle and Stony Point Band had 8 no intention of making a land claim for Ipperwash Park, 9 do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I take it that in -- in the 12 months prior to September 1995, no one from the Stoney 13 Point occupiers, came to the Kettle and Stony Point Band 14 and said, there -- there should be a movement to claim 15 those Park lands? 16 A: From what I can recall, no there was 17 none. 18 Q: And in those months prior to 19 September '95, no one from Stoney Point came to -- no 20 one from Stoney Point occupying group came to the Kettle 21 and Stony Point Band and said that there should be 22 action taking to protect the burial ground in the Park, 23 right? 24 A: I can't recall right now. 25 Q: And in your evidence last week, you
1921 -- you did say that the Kettle and Stony Point Band had 2 been thinking about how to gradually get the Park back? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And one (1) tentative working plan 5 was to try and get a co-management deal regarding the 6 Park, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the longer range goal would be 9 to, over time, have the Park gradually turned over to 10 the First Nations, the Kettle and Stony Point Band to 11 manage it, right? 12 A: Yeah, that's our -- that was the 13 plan. 14 Q: And the intention then would be the 15 manage that Park in the interest of all of the Kettle 16 and Stony Point Band members regardless of where they 17 lived, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And was the -- the concept generally 20 that when the Park was taken over it would be managed by 21 the First Nations as a public Park? 22 A: Yes, we ran a public park on Kettle 23 Point back during the day too so -- 24 Q: The intention was -- was not to -- 25 to get the land and then exclude non-First Nations
1931 people from it right? 2 A: No, -- no even with our beach front 3 after our one (1) court case we said we're not going to 4 restrict the beach area at Kettle Point to just First 5 Nations member, we'll share it with everyone. So that 6 was our intent. 7 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 8 during this time frame 1992 to 1995, the Kettle and 9 Stony Point Band worked closely with Les Kobayashi, the 10 -- the Manager of the Ipperwash Park, right? 11 A: Yeah, we knew him quite well. 12 Q: And in your experience did Les 13 Kobayashi deal with the Kettle and Stony Point Band in a 14 respectful manner? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did he take your interests and 17 concerns seriously? 18 A: Yeah, he did, a lot of our Band 19 members worked at the Pinery including my uncle Dane 20 Cloud and Gord Cloud, they're both Stoney Pointers so 21 they were full-time employees at the Pinery Park so -- 22 Q: Did Mr. Kobayashi manage the Pinery 23 Park as well as the Ipperwash Park? 24 A: Yes, he overseen the Ipperwash Park, 25 like it was like a satellite operation, but he -- he
1941 still overseen it from the Pinery. 2 Q: So it's fair to say then that the 3 Kettle and Stony Point Band had a respectful and 4 productive, positive working relationship with Mr. 5 Kobayashi? 6 A: Yeah, we also had a good working 7 relationship with the managers of Pinery Park, that's 8 how we got the deer cull in 1998. 9 Q: And who was that? 10 A: The Pinery Park. That's how we got 11 to do the deer cull in 1998 with Parks Canada. 12 Q: Yes. Okay. But, when you talk 13 about the management at Pinery Park, are you talking 14 about somebody in addition to Mr. Kobayashi? 15 A: Yeah, I think Mr. Kobayashi retired 16 in '95/96. 17 Q: I see. Okay. 18 A: And then the other Park 19 Superintendent took over and we kept our dialogue open 20 with them, so... 21 Q: Okay. But, to put it shortly, you 22 had a very positive and respectful relationship with Mr. 23 Kobayashi as Manager of Ipperwash Park and Pinery Park 24 in 1995 and prior years? 25 A: Yes.
1951 Q: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit 2 about this letter, that was produced as a result of the 3 -- the open Band Meeting, after the takeover of the -- 4 the built-up area, in -- in which there was a request 5 that non-Band members be asked to leave the occupied 6 area. You -- you recall that letter, of course; right? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And as I recall your evidence, what 9 -- what happened is you -- you and, I mean, yourself and 10 other councilors and the chief personally went out to 11 the Camp to deliver this letter; right? 12 A: Yeah, we were directed by the people 13 at the Band meeting to do something, so that's what we 14 suggested and they agreed to it. 15 Q: And is it fair to say that -- that 16 the tone that Chief Bressette had adopted at that Band 17 meeting, was an attempt to be very reasonable and to try 18 to bring people together, including the occupiers and -- 19 and other First Nations people, to move forward; is that 20 fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And as I recall your evidence then, 23 once -- once you got out there, nobody would take your - 24 - your letter, you then put a stack of them down to be - 25 - for distribution, and they were tossed in somebody's
1961 truck as the truck was driving away, a member of your 2 group was driving away; right? 3 A: Yes. One (1) of our Band 4 Councilors, Al Bressette. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: Somebody at -- one (1) of the 7 occupiers actually filmed us with a handy-cam, I can 8 remember, when we were there. 9 Q: And this refusal, on the part of the 10 occupiers, to even receive the letter, was subsequently 11 publicized in the media, wasn't it? 12 A: I think so. 13 Q: And did you come to any conclusion 14 about the -- the attitude of the occupiers of the Army 15 Camp lands, towards constructive dialogue, with the 16 Kettle and Stony Point Band, as a result of this 17 incident? 18 A: All's I told Tom is, I said, Well, 19 nobody can say we didn't try to talk to them. 20 Q: Right. I take it that you concluded 21 that they just didn't want to talk, period; right? 22 A: That's the feeling I got from 23 several people at the front gate. 24 Q: I note for the -- the record, that 25 the -- the letter from Chief Bressette on behalf of the
1971 Kettle and Stony Point Band, that I refer to, is 2 Exhibit P-30. 3 Now, sir, I -- I may be wrong about this, 4 but it seems to me that from what I've seen, that in the 5 -- the short period of time of the occupation before the 6 -- the violence of the night of September 6, that Chief 7 Bressette did not make statements in the media about the 8 occupation. Is that your recollection? 9 A: I really couldn't -- I really 10 couldn't remember. 11 Q: Okay. Do you -- do you recall being 12 part of, or observing, any discussions involving Chief 13 Bressette or others -- Councilors or the Band 14 Administrator, Ms. Thunder, about what approach the -- 15 the Band was going take to the media, regarding the 16 occupation? And I'm asking about the period prior to 17 the night of September 6th. 18 A: I think -- I think after the -- the 19 Base was taken over, there was a lot of news media 20 around. 21 Q: Okay. But -- 22 A: I -- I can't really remember who was 23 interviewed and what stations or what newspapers it was. 24 Q: Okay. What I -- what I'm asking 25 you, and -- and I just want to focus on the period of
1981 time from the -- the time when the occupation of the 2 Park first starts -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: -- until there was the violence of 5 the night of the 6th. And in that time frame it's -- 6 it's clear that you had contacts with Chief Bressette; 7 right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in that time frame were you 10 aware of any particular decision that was made about 11 whether or not Chief Bressette was going to talk to the 12 media about the occupation of the Park? 13 A: I know I was -- from the time the 14 Park was taken over to September 6th, I was mostly doing 15 my own thing. And I'm not sure, I can't really remember 16 what the Chief or the -- the rest of Council was doing. 17 I mostly just talked to Bernard about stuff. 18 Q: Do you recall any discussion in this 19 time frame -- and, again, we're -- we're talking now of 20 this pre-September 6th time frame regarding the Park 21 occupation -- do you recall any discussion with other 22 Councillors or involving the Band Administrator, 23 Elizabeth Thunder, as to the existence of a burial 24 ground in the Park? 25 A: I can't -- I don't think so. I
1991 don't -- can't remember talking about a burial ground to 2 anyone. 3 Q: Now, to move on to another topic, 4 you were talking a little bit about the cottages in 5 the -- 6 A: East. 7 Q: -- right, in the northeast corner of 8 the roughly two (2) mile square Stoney Point track and 9 how there -- there had been some damage to those 10 cottages. 11 And in connection with that you said -- 12 and I hope I'm quoting you accurately, sir, just my note 13 that you said, We felt the cottages were part of Stoney 14 Point as well; is that fair? 15 A: Yeah. That's what we were -- when 16 we were looking at the map, and we couldn't -- thought 17 that the cottages were built on the Stoney Point lands, 18 because when there was initially surveys they -- way 19 back they used ship chains, they dragged them through 20 the bush, and things like that. 21 So, we're going to -- one (1) of our 22 negotiations was going to be to get a proper GPS 23 measurement of the lands. And we were kind of -- we 24 kind of eyeballed that up in a corner, kind of saw that. 25 Q: All right. Well, who was, we?
2001 A: The Committee. Even some council, 2 we thought that that was on Stoney Point lands. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I don't know how much cottages were 5 there. We just know there's some cottages there. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. And during the period from 7 1993 through 1995 did you hear of any other claims to 8 territory by -- by or argued for persons from within the 9 occupying group that would go beyond that two (2) mile 10 square tract, including the Park, the Army Camp, and the 11 cottages we just spoke about? 12 A: I think Maynard was talking about 13 the Pinery Park for a little while there. He tried to 14 take it over but it -- I don't think it turned out that 15 good for him, that one (1) day he got met at the gate by 16 over a hundred (100) people who use the park. That's 17 the only I remember. 18 But at our negotiating team were also 19 saying that -- that east side of Stoney Point, we think 20 it should be further. We think Outer Drive is on Stoney 21 Point property, that actually Stoney Point extends 22 farther than where it is on that side of the Reserve. 23 Q: How much farther? 24 A: Probably about -- we're thinking 25 maybe about -- oh jeez, two (2) or three hundred (300)
2011 feet into the -- the Lake L (phonetic) Conservation Area 2 at Port Franks. 3 Q: During the -- the period of the -- 4 the Park occupation prior to the violence on the night 5 of the 6th. That period September 4th to the night of 6 the 6th. 7 To your knowledge, were there any 8 communications between the Kettle and Stony Point Band 9 Council or -- or administrators and the local municipal 10 government? 11 A: I really couldn't say. I'm not 12 sure. 13 Q: In the several months prior to the 14 occupation of the Park, was there any dialogue or 15 communications between the Kettle and Stony Point Band 16 and the local municipality regarding the occupation of 17 the -- the Army camp lands? 18 A: I think it was just mostly concerns, 19 like small stuff you heard earlier on about the access - 20 - the road accesses off of Stoney Point. Just things 21 like that. We never really talked about the -- the Park 22 with the municipal governments. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2021 Q: And you gave some evidence last week 2 about the -- the steeple that had been built on the 3 building at the Army camp lands. It's referred to as an 4 argument hall and how that steeple was destroyed. 5 Do you recall that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's information that you were 8 given from somebody else? 9 A: Yeah, that was secondhand 10 information from somebody who was there. 11 Q: Who -- who was it who gave you that 12 information? 13 A: One of my cousins. 14 Q: Do you recall his name? Or her 15 name? 16 A: They still go in and out of Stoney 17 Point. I don't think I should say their name, 'cause 18 they might not be welcome there if I do. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: It -- this is -- this is a -- 23 A: I know it's -- I know it sounds 24 weird that I can't tell you who, but if I say their 25 name, they might not be allowed to go down there
2031 anymore. 2 Q: I'm not -- I'm not suggesting it's - 3 - it's weird on your part at all, sir. 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: We've heard evidence from you that 6 you have felt that you are not welcome to go to those 7 lands, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And apparently people from Oneida or 10 United States who are First Nations people are maybe 11 welcome to go there, but you, as someone with close 12 family ties at Stoney Point are not welcome to go there, 13 right? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 19 think that this co-operative line of questioning between 20 Counsel and the witness paints a not positive picture of 21 my clients at the Aazhoodena lands. 22 Now this witness is under Oath and if 23 he's asked a question, I think he should be obliged to 24 answer it. He was asked, who told him something and he 25 gives us some response which is not an answer and I
2041 would ask that he be required to answer the question. 2 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: It's my question, 4 sir. 5 THE WITNESS: No way. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's your 7 question. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: But it's -- 9 THE WITNESS: No way. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 11 going to withdraw the question? 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, I withdraw the 13 question. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 15 fine. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I understand -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- the witness' 19 concern and I -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 21 fine. 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- don't want him to 23 be -- for the sake -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine -- 25 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- of this point to
2051 be troubling -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 3 understand. Well, just move on, then and if you 4 withdraw the question, he doesn't have to answer it. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: And, sir, you -- you said how you're 8 not welcome there and -- and how after the takeover of 9 the built up area, you went out to the Army camp and you 10 spoke about this at the -- at the large group meeting, 11 do you recall? 12 And someone said something to you, it was 13 a woman, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And she was there with a little 16 child? 17 A: I think it was her grandson. 18 Q: Her grandson. How old was the 19 grandson? 20 A: I'm not sure. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: He maybe -- maybe six (6) or seven 23 (7). 24 Q: Do you know who this person was? 25 A: Yes, I do.
2061 Q: Will you tell us who it was? 2 A: It was Caroline George. 3 Q: And what did Caroline George say to 4 you? 5 A: Just told me, get off the base. 6 Q: Anything else? 7 A: Just some profanity. 8 Q: Well, did she -- did she give you 9 any indication as to why she thought you should get off 10 the base? 11 A: No. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: It's -- I think it's your general 16 perception, has been that you are not welcome at that 17 base because you dissent from the positions taken 18 19 Q: Is -- I think it's your general 20 perception as being, that you are not welcome at that 21 Base because you descent from the positions taken about 22 who should control that land, by the people who are in 23 power in that occupied land; right? 24 A: I -- I don't know. 25
2071 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: If you just bear with 4 me for a moment, Commissioner, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you much, sir, 10 thank you very much, sir. Those are my questions. 11 THE WITNESS: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Downard. Yes, sir? On behalf of Mr. Beaubien? Did 14 you have...? I didn't -- 15 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Mr. Commissioner, I 16 can advise that both Mr. Downard and Ms. Jones have 17 covered my intended lines of questioning, so I don't have 18 any cross-examination. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. Did you have some question, Ms. Twohig? 21 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 22 just a couple by way of clarification, if I may. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KIM TWOHIG:
2081 Q: Hello, sir, my name is Kim Twohig and 2 I represent the Province of Ontario. I just have a 3 couple of questions. 4 At the beginning of today you said that 5 Ipperwash Park was not Stoney Point. And I'm wondering 6 if you could just tell us what you meant by that? 7 A: I meant by that, that there was a -- 8 a surrender and it was accepted and now it belongs to the 9 Province. That's what I meant by that. Technically it's 10 not Stoney Point right now though. 11 Q: And I take it that as far as you are 12 aware, the occupation and protest from 1993 to 1995, was 13 really, as you understood it, about the return of the 14 land that was appropriated by the Government of Canada in 15 1942? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: In September of 1995, I take it from 18 what you've said, that you weren't aware of any reason 19 why the protestors would want to take over the Park to 20 protest anything that was done by the Government of 21 Ontario? 22 A: I -- I didn't know why they took over 23 the Park at first. 24 Q: You said that the Federal Government 25 had agreed to return the land to the Band, but the Band
2091 was concerned that there first be an environmental 2 assessment done. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is that right? 5 A: Yeah, we didn't want to accept -- if 6 we accepted the property, we would have accepted the -- 7 the debt for the cleaning. 8 Q: That's right. And there have been 9 ongoing discussions, or at least as long as you were a 10 Band Councilor, about the environmental assessment? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And those discussions have been 13 between the Band Council and the Government of Canada? 14 A: Yeah. Several branches of the 15 Government. 16 Q: But not the Government of Ontario? 17 A: I'm not sure. I don't know, I don't 18 think so. 19 Q: You mentioned also that you had a 20 good working relationship with Les Kobayashi, and with 21 the Superintendent of the Pinery, -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- who I believe was Mr. Kobayashi's 24 successor? 25 A: Yeah.
2101 Q: And are you aware that staff at the 2 Pinery and at Ipperwash Province Park were employees of 3 the Ministry of Natural Resources? 4 A: Yeah, I -- yeah, because my relatives 5 worked for them too, at the Park. I don't know when it 6 changed from Ministry of Natural Resources to Parks 7 Canada. I'm not really sure when that happened. 8 Q: I was just going to ask you about 9 that because you mentioned that you had a good 10 relationship with Parks Canada, -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- and they are different, and I was 13 just wondering -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- if you meant with the Ministry of 16 Natural Resources, which is the Provincial Ministry. 17 A: Yeah, we worked with both. But I 18 think Parks Canada took over when we did the first deer 19 cull in '98 because I think it was Parks Canada then. 20 I'm not sure, they might've changed, but I'm not really 21 sure of the date when it -- the transition happened 22 between those two. 23 Q: But in any event, you did and 24 continue to have, a good relationship with the Ministry 25 of Natural Resources?
2111 A: Yeah, we still do the deer cull. 2 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Ms. Twohig. I think Mr. Henderson, do you have any 5 questions? 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. This 9 morning, Ms. Tuck-Jackson suggested to you several 10 inconsistencies in -- or alleged inconsistencies in 11 evidence and prior statements that you had made. 12 One (1) of the ones that she referred to 13 was during the altercation when Mr. Stewart George 14 attacked you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And Ms. Tuck-Jackson suggested that 17 his evidence was different than yours about what occurred 18 on that occasion? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I can tell you, sir, that his 21 evidence was that he asked you what you were doing at 22 that area and you started to say something and he hit 23 you. Your evidence which you gave last week, was that he 24 had waved you over, that you pulled over, that he 25 suggested he was angry about the letter you had written?
2121 A: Yes. 2 Q: He was angry about the fact that it 3 could be taken as referring to his father? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That you responded you weren't 6 talking about his father, you were talking about people 7 who had engaged in a particular form of conduct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You leaned over to get something off 10 the seat and at that point you were struck in the side of 11 the head? 12 A: Yeah, when I turned away. 13 Q: That seems to me to be far more 14 detailed evidence than Mr. Stewart George gave on that 15 occasion. Are you satisfied with the evidence you gave 16 was correct? 17 A: Yes -- yes while I was hear listening 18 to J.T., I heard that I got out of the car and didn't 19 exit the vehicle either. 20 Q: We're not concerned about what he 21 said -- 22 A: No -- 23 Q: -- Mr. George did not suggest you got 24 out of the car either, Mr. Stewart George did not. And 25 so in response to my previous question, are you satisfied
2131 that the evidence that you gave, is an accurate account 2 of what happened on that occasion? 3 A: Yes, I am. 4 Q: And you also indicated that you 5 perceived Mr. George to have been intoxicated on that 6 occasion? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: Thank you. Now, after that event 9 occurred, you proceeded up the road and you pulled to the 10 side where there were a number of police cars and police 11 officers? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I don't remember the number of 14 either, could you remind me how many cars and how many 15 officers? 16 A: A couple of cars, maybe four (4) 17 officers. 18 Q: And were the four (4) officers in 19 their own cruisers at the time or were they standing out 20 of the cruisers? 21 A: They were standing out and there was 22 a couple of more officers down the road. 23 Q: Down the road towards the camp? 24 A: Yes, they weren't part of the 25 roadblock, but, they were just maybe about hundred (100)
2141 feet, hundred and fifty (150) feet down the road. 2 Q: Towards the Park or towards the camp 3 gate? 4 A: Towards the Army camp. 5 Q: Now, did you at that point get out of 6 the vehicle? Your vehicle -- I believe it was your 7 sister's vehicle at that point? 8 A: Yeah, my sister, they told me to back 9 the car into the one part -- the side entrance to the -- 10 that little campground that was there. I still didn't 11 find out the name of that. 12 Q: Okay. And having backed into that 13 area where they asked you to move the vehicle, did you 14 then get out? Or did somebody get in with you? 15 A: I think somebody got in with me. 16 Q: And do you know if that was Officer 17 Poole who subsequently prepared a statement? 18 A: Whoever the -- whoever the uniformed 19 officer was, he got in first. 20 Q: Only one (1) of the officers was in 21 regular uniform? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And he's the one (1) who got in 24 first? 25 A: Yes.
2151 Q: And he's the one (1) who completed 2 the incidence statement that was drawn to your attention? 3 A: Yeah, the -- 4 Q: The incident report? 5 A: Yeah, the rock throwing. 6 Q: And after you had completed that 7 incident report, did you then get out of the vehicle or 8 were you asked to get out of the vehicle? 9 A: No, I think I stayed in the vehicle. 10 Q: You stayed in the vehicle and 11 assuming that was Constable Poole, did he get out? 12 A: Yeah, the uniform -- because that was 13 the first officer, yeah. Mr. Poole, he got out of the 14 car. 15 Q: I think we'll be able to sort that 16 out eventually. And then did someone else get in or did 17 you start to leave or what -- what happened after that? 18 A: No another officer come up, plain 19 clothes. He didn't have the shirt on, the regular 20 standard shirt on. Or the cap or anything. 21 Q: Okay. And he came over and did you 22 beckon him in any way as has been suggested? 23 A: No I didn't beckon him he just come 24 and got in the car. 25 Q: Did you know who he was?
2161 A: No. 2 Q: Apart from being out of uniform was 3 he distinguishable in any way from the other officers 4 around? 5 A: I think he had a police issue pants 6 on, if I can remember correctly. But he had a plain 7 clothes shirt on. 8 Q: Okay. Was there any reason you would 9 have beckoned to him had you done so -- 10 A: No I -- 11 Q: -- in preference to any of the other 12 officers? 13 A: I thought -- I thought I was going to 14 be let since I finished the report on the rock throwing. 15 Q: Okay. And your evidence is that you 16 did not wave him over at all, that he approached the car 17 and he got in? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And he had some pictures to show you? 20 A: Yeah. A book. 21 Q: Okay. And you've related the 22 evidence -- you've related your evidence as to the 23 conversation that you had with him with respect to a 24 couple of areas and conversations that you did not have 25 with him with respect to a couple of areas.
2171 Did you notice that he was reducing any of 2 this to writing? 3 A: I couldn't -- I couldn't really 4 remember him writing anything down. He was mostly asking 5 me questions, kind of -- kind of fast. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. And he was sitting on the 7 passenger side of the front seat of the car? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And he had a book with him of 10 pictures? 11 A: Yeah. A book of pictures with the 12 guys that were in the Camp and the guys that were in the 13 Base too, he had pictures of. They must be taking a lot 14 of pictures, he had a lot of pictures. 15 Q: Okay. So, it was fairly thick book? 16 A: Here. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Like, kind of like a photo album, 19 maybe something almost this big. 20 Q: Like a three (3) ring binder with 21 photos -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- or something like that? 24 A: You could flip real easy. 25 Q: Okay. Now, was this conversation
2181 interrupted while he got out of the car to do something 2 else or to talk with somebody else? 3 A: He talked on his radio a couple 4 times. 5 Q: He had a radio in the car with him? 6 A: It was a portable. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: All -- all the police here, there, 9 when they talk on the radio, they kind of turn away. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Kind of shield it and talk like that. 12 Q: So he would turn away from you 13 towards the passenger side window and talk on the radio a 14 couple of times? 15 A: I think just once. I think just 16 once, from what I can remember. 17 Q: How long would you say this whole 18 conversation lasted? 19 A: Maybe about ten (10)minutes -- ten 20 minutes or less. 21 Q: Ten (10) minutes or less. And then 22 he got out and you left? 23 A: Yeah. Then I -- I was informed to 24 head up to highway towards 21. 25 Q: Okay.
2191 A: Not to go that way again. 2 Q: All right. Did any of the other 3 officers approach or speak to you at any time? 4 A: No, not at that -- not at that -- 5 just when I was stopped at the second roadblock. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Yeah. Mostly I was just waved 8 through. 9 Q: Thank you. If you'll wait just a 10 second I'm going to ask Commission Counsel to -- to flash 11 up a document for you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And we'll expand that in just a 16 moment. Before you look at it, you'll recall that Ms. 17 Jones suggested to you that Constable Poole would be 18 giving evidence that you had in fact initiated a 19 conversation with him about firearms, and you denied 20 that? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: You didn't have such a conversation 23 with a -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- uniformed officer?
2201 A: No. That's the first time I heard 2 it, when you mentioned it now -- 3 Q: Well, that's -- 4 A: -- this morning. 5 Q: -- funny you should say that. We 6 have here a statement that was given by one Sheldon 7 Poole, who I presume is the officer in question. I 8 wonder, can -- can we blow that up just to make it a 9 little more legible. 10 I wonder if you can just read down to the 11 -- okay -- read down and tell Mr. Millar when you've read 12 what's there. 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: Okay. And scroll down some more, 15 please. 16 A: Okay. Okay. You can go up. 17 Q: Up or down? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Okay. That's the end of that. The 22 document, I can advise you, Commissioner, is three (3) 23 pages, the second and third page are in fact the same 24 text in handwriting, and this is the typed cover page, 25 transcribed --
2211 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is -- 2 so, this is the whole statement? 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: That's the whole 4 statement. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: 7 Q: Now, having read that, could you 8 indicate to me the part where Constable Poole says that 9 he had any discussion with you at all about firearms, 10 weapons or anything else. 11 A: No, he just took the statement, 12 damage to the vehicle. 13 Q: Do you see where he recorded such a 14 conversation in that document? 15 A: No, I don't. But then later on he -- 16 I think he says it -- the whole incident took place at 17 ten o'clock in another transcript, so I wasn't -- 18 Q: Well we have his notes -- 19 A: Don't know what's going on. 20 Q: -- we have his notes. I won't take 21 you to them right now because his handwritten notes in 22 his notebook -- 23 A: Yeah I can't read that, I tried to 24 read that -- 25 Q: Basically, this is the hour that I
2221 reported for work, and this the hour that I stopped work. 2 This document was referred to as -- by Ms. Jones in -- in 3 her advice of documents that she would be talking about 4 with you. 5 So, when I look at that document, and I 6 understand your evidence to be when you look at that 7 document, there's no mention of any discussion with you 8 about firearms at all. 9 Q: Well, what the OPP say really doesn't 10 concern me, because I was at my cousin Bernard's trial 11 when they tried to get him and the lies that were being 12 said there. 13 I -- I -- he told me to expect -- to see 14 things like that and sure enough -- 15 Q: Well, I can understand your point of 16 view, sir, and the OPP seems to be extremely concerned 17 about inconsistencies and I would say that this is one 18 (1) right here, wouldn't you? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 20 minute. Just hold it. Ms. Tuck-Jackson has -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps My Friend -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- had 23 something to say. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- could ask the 25 question --
2231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and not make 3 speeches. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Editorial 5 comment. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, he's asked this 7 question -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's got an 9 answer and he should -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He's got his answer 11 and there'll be a time to make speeches. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Do you 13 want to say anything more than that, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I do, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I know for the 17 -- the record, Mr. Commissioner, that Ms. Jones has left 18 for the day -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I was 20 just looking to see if she was here and I don't know 21 where she is, but she is not in the room. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: The difficulty 23 that I have, Mr. Commissioner, with My Friend Mr. 24 Henderson's questioning, he's suggesting that the only 25 document highlighted in the brief that was identified by
2241 Ms. Jones, is that which is before you right now. 2 And, I -- there's no question, that it 3 doesn't refer to anything that's attributed to Officer 4 Poole about a conversation he had with this witness about 5 the presence of firearms. 6 But, in fairness to that party, if we 7 refer to their document of briefs, Item 11, which is 8 Document 6000397, which is a letter dated June the 19th, 9 2003 from Dennis Brown (phonetic) who was Counsel in the 10 civil proceedings, there is a reference at the first 11 page, after that attachment, that does confirm -- we just 12 have it up on the screen -- 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Item 366, if 17 that helps, Mr. Millar? On the left. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: On page -- it's 22 the second page behind -- excuse me, it's the first page 23 behind the letter. It looks like it's Page 30 on the top 24 right hand corner. 25
2251 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It reads sir: 4 "Poole advises that the statement was 5 taken at 19:56 hours on September 6th, 6 '95 and is accurate except for a 7 deliberate omission about guns. Gerald 8 George described several types of guns 9 being in the possession of the Park 10 occupiers but was concerned about his 11 safety so Poole promised him he would 12 not write it down. Gerald George 13 described long guns, AK-47s and hunting 14 rifles with scopes. The statement was 15 taken about forty (40) feet from Army 16 Camp Road and Gerald signed it." 17 Now, I only draw that, sir, to your 18 attention just to make sure that it's balanced. Thank 19 you, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes,
2261 Commissioner. I appreciate Ms. Tuck-Jackson stepping 2 into the breach. I -- I didn't realize there was nobody 3 left from the OPPA. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In any event, 6 having looked at the -- the statement that was just 7 referred to by Ms. Tuck-Jackson, the -- the excerpt that 8 is there, it talks about Constable Poole is going to say 9 that he took a statement from Mr. George. 10 His evidence will be, apparently, that 11 there is a discussion about certain items, which he will 12 say Mr. George asked not to go in to that statement, 13 which was completed forty (40) feet from Army Camp Road, 14 and Mr. George signed it. 15 That's obviously the incident report. 16 There's no reason why his own notebook, his own statement 17 about what occurred on that day, would not refer to that. 18 I said it's an inconsistency. The word has been used 19 before today. 20 I think I'm equally entitled to use it, 21 and I have. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't intend to 24 pursue the matter. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
2271 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: And I did not say 2 that the document I referred to is the only evidence, -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The only 4 document. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- or only 6 documentary evidence to refer to Constable Poole. In 7 fact, I specifically referred to his notebook, which is 8 singularly uninformative in the manner that I already 9 described. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 I presume Constable Poole will at some point be called as 12 a witness. 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm sure he will 14 be warmly welcomed. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 We will hear his evidence. 17 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. 18 George, I have no other questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Millar? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just have one (1) 22 brief question. I wanted to just clear up something. 23 24 RE-DIRECT 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2281 Q: You told My Friend, Ms. Twohig, you 2 discussed the issue of Parks Canada, and I'm -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- having a little difficulty 5 understanding the reference to Parks Canada. 6 Pinery Park, in 1995, was operated by the 7 Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ontario Government? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And it was my understanding that it 10 still remains an Ontario Government Park, Pinery Park? 11 A: I'm not sure, because the employees 12 are Parks Canada employees inside, and even their 13 vehicles says Parks Canada on the side right now. 14 Q: On Pinery -- at Pinery -- 15 A: At Pinery Park, yeah. Because I did 16 the deer cull and I -- unless I read wrong. It says 17 Parks Canada right on the side. 18 Q: Perhaps. But it -- but the Parks 19 Canada vehicles that you saw were during the -- the deer 20 cull? 21 A: Yeah, in 1998. 22 Q: Do you know, have you been there at 23 other times in Pinery Park, and seen Parks Canada 24 vehicles? Perhaps they were there simply as part of the 25 deer cull?
2291 A: '98/99, 2000. I don't -- maybe they 2 weren't there, but I could of swore I saw Parks Canada 3 signs in the Pinery. Maybe the Province maybe got taken 4 over, I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 6 questions. And I wish to thank you, Mr. George, for 7 coming to the Inquiry and assisting us with your 8 evidence. Thank you very much. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 11 say that as well, Mr. George. Thank you very much for 12 coming here and giving us your evidence. Thank you. 13 You're free now. You're finished. 14 THE WITNESS: Free to go. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You're free to go. 18 Thank you very much. 19 THE WITNESS: My only day off. 20 21 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see -- 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I was 25 going to start with the next witness, Mr. Nicholas
2301 Cottrelle, but it is now five o'clock. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we've 3 still got two (2) minutes, Mr. Millar. All right. 4 That's fine. We will adjourn now until tomorrow morning 5 at nine o'clock. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Nine o'clock. Nine 7 o'clock. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Nine o'clock 9 tomorrow morning. 10 THE WITNESS: Do I get to keep this? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If you wish, yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until 13 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, January 18th, at 9:00 19 a.m. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 5:00 p.m. 22 23 24 25
2311 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 __________________________ 9 Wendy Warnock 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25