11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 13th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan Mackey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 GERALD GEORGE, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 161 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 166 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 190 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 250 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 4 P-119 Letter dated February 9th, 1995 22 5 from Gerald George to the Editor of 6 the Forest Standard. 7 8 P-120 Document No. 2001978, London Free 45 9 Press, Section A, August 03/95 10 "Ipperwash Takeover" reference to 11 Gerald George. 12 13 P-121 Doc No. 1002409 page 13 map of 14 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 15 witness Mr. Gerald George JAN 13/05 65 16 17 P-122 Copy of Exhibit P-23. 118 18 19 P-123 September 6, 1995 interview 20 report taken by police Constable Poole 21 with signature on each page. 162 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Please be seated. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, everybody. Nice to be on time. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 16 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Resumed 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. We were-- 20 A: Good morning. 21 Q: -- yesterday, talking about your 22 movement into the Army Camp in May of 1993, and before I 23 got there I wanted to ask you a question about -- you 24 told us yesterday the you did some hunting when you were 25 in high school on the Army Camp.
81 And can you tell me what kind of a rifle 2 or gun did you have when you were in high school? 3 A: I'd use a .22 Magnum -- 4 Q: And -- 5 A: -- and a bolt action .22 Marlin. 6 Q: And was that a rifle that you 7 received from someone or you purchased yourself? 8 A: No, my parents bought me that for my 9 15th birthday. 10 Q: And so that was the rifle you used 11 when you hunted when you were in highschool? 12 A: Yeah, mostly and then later on I 13 used a .223; I think it was a Ruger. 14 Q: A .223? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. Now you were -- you told us 17 yesterday that when you moved onto the Army Camp in May 18 of 1993, that you stayed with your uncle Pete Cloud and 19 your cousins? 20 A: Yeah, that's right. 21 Q: And you stayed in the area along 22 Highway 21 that -- to the east of the building that you 23 described as the weapons hut? 24 A: The range shed. 25 Q: The range shed?
91 A: Yeah. Well, that's what we called 2 it when I worked there anyway. 3 Q: You called it that when you worked 4 there? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And it was on -- when one looks at 7 Exhibit P-40, it was the area -- in the area just to the 8 west of the rifle range and to the south of the thirty 9 (30) yard range on that document in front of you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And how long did you stay at the 12 Army Camp during the summer of -- of 1993? 13 A: Probably until maybe early August -- 14 maybe the first weekend in August, somewhere around 15 there. 16 Q: And when you were at the Army Camp 17 from the -- from the time you went in, in early May to 18 the beginning -- early part of August, how often did -- 19 did you go to the Army Camp? 20 A: I stayed overnight quite a bit, just 21 when I had to go home for meetings or had to go away for 22 meetings. I -- I stayed at home once in a while, but 23 most of the time I stayed at the -- the Campground there 24 with my uncle. 25 Q: And the -- when you were on the --
101 the -- in the summer of 1993, did you assist in the 2 building of a -- construction of a building on the Army 3 Camp? 4 A: Not really. That was built by my 5 uncle, Peter Cloud. Again, my father Victor George and 6 Kerman (phonetic) -- Kerman Rogers. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: They -- they constructed that. It 9 was supposed to be a church and a meeting place -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- for the people there. And my 12 father made a steeple for that building, with a cross on 13 it. He put it up on there, too, because they wanted it 14 to be a church so he put that up there, too. 15 Q: And the -- when was that? Do you 16 recall when that building was built? 17 A: Probably around mid-July, early 18 July, somewhere round there. I can't -- it's like nine 19 (9) -- quite a while ago. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: It's quite a while ago, you know -- 22 Q: And -- 23 A: -- like twelve (12), thirteen (13) 24 years ago. 25 Q: -- so if you'd take a look at
111 Exhibit P-40 that's up on the screen. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Is that building located just to the 6 east of the road that leads -- that has the sign -- the 7 name on it "grenade range"? 8 It might be easier to look at that -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- map in front of you. Can you 11 just, using your pointer, point out where the building 12 is? 13 A: I think right -- right here on this 14 side of the road, isn't it? Right around that area. 15 Q: And -- you're right. I think that I 16 was mistaken. It's the -- there's a dot here just to 17 the left of the transition range and close to the point 18 where your camp was. Is that where that building was 19 located? 20 A: Yeah, it's pretty close to there. 21 Right around this area here. 22 Q: Okay. And what happened to the 23 steeple that was built on the top of the church -- on 24 the building? 25 A: Well, after -- after I moved out,
121 I'm not sure when it was, maybe late August, early 2 September, some of the people in there told me that it 3 was someone else climbed on the roof and kicked it off, 4 chopped the cross off and then kicked the steeple off 5 the roof. 6 Q: And the building exists today? 7 A: Yeah, the building's there. 8 Q: And it's -- when you were there in 9 the summer of 1993, it was used as a meeting hall? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And why did you leave in the early 12 part of August of 1993? 13 A: I was starting to get uncomfortable 14 from being -- staying there. 15 Q: And can -- why -- what do you mean 16 by "getting uncomfortable"? 17 A: Gradually some of the people start - 18 - it wasn't direct -- directly telling me anything, but, 19 like, we'd all go to each others campground and sit 20 there and share soup. Everybody would take turns making 21 homemade soup and stuff. 22 Once I went there to get some and someone 23 said make room for Tom's spy, the Chief. So I just -- I 24 just left. 25 And another time I gave someone a ride
131 and when I dropped them off they -- it was raining and 2 when I dropped them off they told me I shouldn't be at 3 Stoney Point because I was a Band councillor. 4 Little things like that, so I just told 5 my uncle, well, it's time for me to go. I didn't want 6 them to start on telling him anything so I just packed 7 up all my -- all my equipment and left. 8 Q: And your uncle, Pete Cloud, stayed 9 for the summer? 10 A: Yeah, I think he stayed there for a 11 while longer. 12 Q: And the -- on the issue of the 13 meeting hall and the steeple, I understand you wrote an 14 article for the London Free Press on the issue? 15 A: Yeah. It made me really angry that 16 someone would do that, disrespect the work that my dad 17 did but my mother's -- she just said, let it go, you 18 know. Whoever did that, something will happen to them. 19 You can't do that to a -- to anything that people -- 20 people work real hard at, you know. She told me just to 21 let it go, so I... 22 Q: And as part of your -- do you -- I 23 take it you write -- do you write letters on a frequent 24 basis on issues? 25 A: Yes, I do. I'm not a -- not a --
141 I'm not a councillor who'd just sit there and not say 2 anything, a bump on a log councillor. If something 3 happens, people come to me. They say, Why aren't 4 Council doing something about this stuff. 5 So the only -- the only thing I can 6 really do is let the outside world know that we all 7 don't, you know, agree with a lot of the things that are 8 going on. 9 Q: And when you were there at the Army 10 Camp in the summer of 1993, did you observe helicopters. 11 A: We heard them one (1) night flying 12 around. I didn't see them. But one (1) day we -- we 13 didn't stay at -- or camp overnight and we went back, 14 you know, the way dome tents are constructed they -- 15 they go in a dome shape and you peg them into the 16 ground. 17 We went back and our tents were lying all 18 over the place. Like somebody threw them around but 19 later on we learned that there was a helicopter hovering 20 right over our campground and must have -- that must 21 have blew the tents over and made a mess of everything. 22 Q: Made a -- but you -- you didn't 23 actually yourself see any of the helicopters flying over 24 the area on the Army Camp where people were camping? 25 A: No. My mom was there one (1) night.
151 She said she saw helicopters and I think my Uncle Bud 2 hit it with a spotlight and shone on it. 3 Q: And I take it from what you said, 4 you were not on the Army Camp in late August when there 5 was an alleged incident with respect to a helicopter? 6 A: No. I wasn't there. 7 Q: And when you were living at the Army 8 Camp in May through early August 1993, did you 9 participate in activities on the Army Camp? 10 A: Me and my cousin Dwayne Cloud and 11 our other Cousins Blaine and Joe Cloud and Charlie and 12 Dave Cloud, we -- we stayed up most of the night and 13 just walked around the perimeters of our camp, around 14 everybody's separate little camps. We'd walk around 15 just to make sure like nobody would know the Army was 16 coming up and bug with the people and stuff. 17 Q: So that you would walk around your 18 camp at night with your cousin Dwayne and who is the 19 other person? 20 A: Blaine and Joe Cloud would help us 21 and Dave and Charlie Cloud. 22 Q: Dave? 23 A: And Charlie Cloud. They're Dean's - 24 - Dean Cloud's boys. 25 Q: Okay. And would you act as security
161 for your camp or all of the camps along Highway 21? 2 A: All of the camps. We would be 3 security for all of the camps. If we -- if anything 4 happened we were supposed to tell the -- the Elders, 5 like Robert or Carl or Maynard if anything happened. We 6 were strictly told not to cause trouble. 7 If any of the Army guys come by swearing 8 at us, we weren't suppose to, like, do anything back. 9 We were just suppose to write it down. Because Robert 10 talked to the camp commander quite a bit. 11 Q: And so as I understand it then, that 12 you did this at night and you would then sleep in the 13 day? 14 A: Yeah. We couldn't sleep too long 15 because the sun would get -- shine on the tents so it 16 would make it really hot. Can sleep maybe 'til 10:30, 17 ten o'clock. 18 Q: And you organized this with Mr. 19 Robert George Jr. or -- he's known as Nobby, is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yeah, he was our -- he was our 22 leader back then. We listened to him. 23 Q: And Carl -- Carl George now known as 24 Carl Tulsma (phonetic) was -- 25 A: Yeah. Carl was starting to take a
171 kind of a leadership role about in June this summer. 2 Because he had his -- he had a trailer in there, maybe 3 two (2) trailers. I'm not -- I can't really remember. 4 But he had his -- his little campground beside everybody 5 too. 6 Q: And so that you were -- if you 7 observed anything were suppose to write it down and 8 report it to either Mr. Robert George Jr. or Mr. Carl 9 George and they would take it up with the Army? 10 A: Yeah or Maynard. 11 Q: Or Maynard T? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And by Maynard T, we mean Maynard T. 14 George? 15 A: Yeah, yeah. I just called him 16 Maynard T. 17 Q: And how long did you do the 18 security? The whole period of time you were in -- on 19 the Camp? 20 A: Yeah. Probably May, June, and into 21 July. 22 Q: And did -- were you aware of the 23 burying the hatchet ceremony held at the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes, I was. 25 Q: Did you attend it?
181 A: No, I didn't. It's not Anishinabek 2 practice. 3 Q: Okay. Now before I move on, the -- 4 in 19 -- after you left in early August, 1993, did you 5 go back to the Army Camp either in the fall of 1993 or 6 in 1994? 7 A: In 1993 I'd go back and hunt -- hunt 8 ducks around the -- where the Shermans were -- the 9 Sherman and the Chieftain. 10 Q: And that's an area around the motor 11 range? 12 A: Rocket range, actually, anti-tank 13 rocket range. Right about -- right about here. 14 Q: So, it's an area just to the south 15 of -- on Exhibit P-40 -- where it says "motor range", 16 just to the south of there? 17 A: Yeah. Beavers made a dam back there 18 and it formed kind of a nice pond -- good for duck 19 hunting, so I'd go in there. Still, in the fall after I 20 moved out, I still went there for a ride and visit and 21 I'd hunt deer there, too, in the fall. I'd take my .223 22 in there and -- 23 Q: And hunt deer? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And in -- if I can take you to -- in
191 1993, were you considering training for a Park -- to be 2 a Park Warden? 3 A: What I can remember, I think I -- I 4 think I was. I think we were working along with the MNR 5 -- Windic McNab (phonetic). 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: It was a -- it was supposed to kind 8 of Park Warden and to ride along with the -- with the 9 MNR during their Game Warden patrols, from what I can 10 remember because we're -- a lot of our people were out 11 night hunting. Well, it wasn't -- had -- didn't have 12 anything to do with the Camp, it had with our people 13 hunting out in our traditional territory -- 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: -- out near Elvin's Stand (phonetic) 16 outside of London and we were thinking maybe if I could 17 have trained I could have gone out and if we encountered 18 any of our people, I could have handled the situation a 19 little better. Didn't have really anything to do with 20 the -- the Army Base. 21 Q: It didn't have anything to do with 22 the Army Camp, it was to just assist in -- 23 A: Yeah, because I -- I worked -- one 24 (1) of my portfolios was to work along with the Ministry 25 and to take up issues with them and that -- that's one
201 (1). We were talking to Les Kobayashi, the Manager of 2 the Pinery and he's also manager of the Ipperwash 3 Provincial Park. That's what were talking about. Maybe 4 I could have got training. 5 Q: And it's -- 6 A: That's all that was about. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: That's all that was about. 9 Q: And did it come about? Were you 10 trained? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- if I could take 13 you to Tab 2 of the book in front of you, there's a 14 letter to the editor, it's the Forest Standard of 15 February 9th, 1994 and it's two (2) pages and I believe 16 it's Inquiry Document 1002054. 17 And this is a letter that you wrote to 18 the editor, Mr. George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And why did you write this letter to 21 the editor in February of 1994? 22 A: I was getting -- I didn't like the 23 way the whole thing was starting to turn. When -- when 24 we first moved into the Base it was just to get the land 25 back. And over -- over time, starting about late -- in
211 September 1993 it started to turn into a separatist 2 issue. 3 And I -- and I -- and I had a meeting 4 once. I said, The only people who can say that we are 5 separate is everybody in the Nation in a vote, and that 6 -- and that's all Band members, you know? 7 And gradually the separatists -- some 8 people started pushing that movement and they started 9 using the newspapers and media, saying that they were 10 being treated unfairly by the Kettle Point Council. 11 And I didn't agree with that and I asked 12 -- I asked the Council, I said, Are we going to release 13 anything to the newspapers -- our view and nobody wanted 14 to. So I wrote this to let everybody know, you know, 15 we're not separate. 16 Q: So the concern that you had was that 17 a -- there were people who wanted to separate the Stoney 18 Point from the -- from Kettle Point and set it up as a 19 separate Band? 20 A: Yes. And -- and I couldn't -- over 21 the time, like, my mother's from Stoney Point and my 22 father's from Kettle Point. I kept telling people from 23 Kettle and Stony Point, I said, don't try to make me 24 jump on either side of your fences, because I can't. 25 If I do, I'll dishonour my dad, if I jump
221 on the other side, I'll dishonour my mother. I'm not 2 into that, you know. That -- that's my view and it's 3 still my view today. 4 Q: And as you indicated in this letter, 5 there were a number of -- our of nine (9) councillors, 6 seven (7) have had close ties to Stoney Point. Is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And perhaps we could mark as the 10 next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 119, I believe -- 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-119, Your Honour. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- this letter to the 13 editor? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Oh, we 15 have a copy there, thank you. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT P-119: Document No. 1002054 Forest 18 Standard, Wed. Feb 09/94, 19 Page 02 Letter to the Editor 20 from Gerald George. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And in -- over the summer of 1994, 24 as part of your duties as a councillor, were there 25 discussions with Mr. Kobayashi and the Ministry of
231 Natural Resources about management of the -- joint 2 management of the Park, the Ipperwash Provincial Park or 3 the Pinery Park? 4 A: We were -- yeah, we -- the council 5 recognized that the Ipperwash Park was part of Stoney 6 Point. It was surrendered and we were thinking about 7 how we could gradually get that back. 8 So I talked with Liz last night. She was 9 a Band administrator and from what I can remember what - 10 - from -- she could remember, it was -- 11 Q: You tell us what you can remember. 12 A: Yeah, from what I can remember, it 13 was a -- we were going to try to get a co-management 14 deal with Ipperwash Park and possibly with the Pinery 15 Park. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Because the Pinery Park is in 18 traditional territory too, but we're mostly concerned 19 with the Ipperwash Provincial Park and we're thinking 20 over time, it could gradually be turned over to us and - 21 - and then the First Nation would manage it. 22 Q: And the Ipperwash Provincial Park 23 was part of the reserve that was set up as a result of 24 the Treaty of 1827? 25 A: Yeah.
241 Q: And it formed part of the reserve 2 until the surrender of 1928? 3 A: Yeah, yes. 4 Q: And your concern was that the land 5 be returned to the Band because it was part of your 6 traditional land? 7 A: Yeah, since -- 8 Q: Part of the reserve land, actually. 9 A: Yeah, since we got the word that the 10 Army Base was going to be turned back over, we thought 11 we should get it up -- the whole thing back, as it was, 12 and that was one (1) of the ways of slowly getting it -- 13 we knew the -- it was under Provencal rule then. 14 It would be a lot different than 15 negotiating the frontage and the whole Base, because 16 that belonged to the Feds. And we recognized that the 17 Provincial Park was the province, so we thought if we 18 entered a co-management arrangement with them, that we 19 could gradually, over time, take it over. 20 That was the plan. We -- we worked real 21 close with Les -- Lesley Kobayashi, because one (1) of 22 my uncles, Gord Cloud, worked at the Pinery and he was 23 friends with him, so we had real good working 24 relationship with the Pinery staff and management. 25 Q: And did this -- I note that there's
251 some minutes at Tab 4 of -- Tab 3 of the book in front 2 of you of a council meeting on August the 2nd, 1994 and 3 at the bottom of page 1 and the top of page 2 and this 4 is Inquiry Document 1011116. 5 There's a reference on page 2 as part of 6 the draft management plan to a -- you wanted to make 7 sure there was something put in the plan allowing band 8 members to hunt -- hunt woods and gathering of herbs or 9 plants for medicinal use. Is that correct? 10 A: Yeah, wanted to make sure that we 11 could hunt in there -- in the Provincial Park and 12 possibly the Pinery and cut wood. 13 A lot of our old people like still to 14 collect herbs and medicines like Gladys Lundehn would 15 talk a lot at our meetings. She was a really Stoney 16 Pointer. She was born there and lived there and she 17 removed. 18 So that was one (1) of their concerns, if 19 they could go and get medicines. So I -- I was trying 20 to make sure that that was put into the -- into the 21 plan. And a lot of our guys like it's good fishing 22 right off of the reef at Ipperwash Provincial Park and 23 make sure we could maybe set nets off there fishing and 24 whatnot. 25 Q: And so that was -- you wanted that
261 part of the draft plan to permit hunting, fishing, 2 gathering of herbs at Ipperwash Provincial Park and at 3 Pinery? 4 A: Yeah. That was my portfolio on 5 Council so I took it up. 6 Q: And was a management plan -- 7 management plan entered into? 8 A: I think it only went to the draft 9 stage. 10 Q: Only to the draft stage? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Now in 1994, did you attend at the 13 Army Camp? 14 A: 1994, I think I was still going in 15 there. Just to ride around. 16 Q: And did you hunt in 1994? 17 A: Only at night. 18 Q: Only -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what did you hunt when you were 21 hunting in 1994 in the Army Camp? 22 A: We'd go in there and hunt deer at 23 night. 24 Q: And did you hunt during -- in the 25 fall? Was it in the fall, or the spring, or summer, or
271 all year round? 2 A: In the fall we'd hunt deer, in the 3 fall. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: Hunt deer in the fall. 6 Q: And did you hunt ducks in the fall 7 of 1994? 8 A: I can't really remember. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I might have, I'm not sure. 11 Q: So the hunting was that you did in 12 1994 was in the fall? 13 A: Yeah. We hunt in the fall. Well I 14 do anyway, you're not suppose to really shoot deer in 15 the summer, or the spring or -- 16 Q: So when you hunted, you hunted in 17 the fall during the hunting season? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Now in 1995, excuse me, before I 20 leave 1994, did you go back and live on the rifle ranges 21 in 1994? Did you stay overnight? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And did you Uncle Pete Cloud and 24 members of your family go back in 1994? 25 A: I'm not sure if Pete -- I think Pete
281 was going in and out of there. I'm not if he stayed 2 overnight though. 3 Q: And what about other members of your 4 extended family? 5 A: Yeah, they did. 6 Q: They did? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you go visit them? 9 A: Yeah, I rode by. 10 Q: But did you go onto the Army -- to 11 the area along Highway 21 to visit them? 12 A: I really can't remember. I probably 13 did. 14 Q: Okay. Now in 1995 the -- did you go 15 and visit the Army Camp, the camps along Highway 21 16 prior to July 29th, 1995? 17 A: The main Base? 18 Q: Yes. No, along the -- where the 19 occupiers were occupying the rifle ranges, did you visit 20 that in 1994/5 before the occupation of the barracks? 21 A: I really can't remember. I might 22 have went for a ride around the Base and out again. I 23 wouldn't stay long. 24 Q: And what you mean, you would go into 25 the Base, drive around the Base and then leave?
291 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And how did you hear about the 3 occupation of the barracks at the Army Camp? 4 A: Through -- through some of the Band 5 members and through the media. 6 Q: Okay. And when did you hear about 7 it in relation to -- we've heard that the movement into 8 the built-up area, the barracks area of the Army Camp 9 was on July 29th, 1995, when did you hear about it? 10 A: Probably just a little while after 11 it was happening. 12 Q: And did you go down to the Army 13 Camp? 14 A: I went -- I went by and I saw a lot 15 of -- some trucks leaving the Base with air conditioners 16 and fridges and things and they were going toward -- I 17 just sat there for a while. They were going toward 18 London, the London area. 19 Q: And were they in military trucks 20 that you observed? 21 A: No. These were natives -- natives 22 driving trucks. I don't know who they were. They were 23 taking things off the Base. 24 Q: And when was that in relation to 25 July 29th?
301 A: The day -- I guess the day it 2 happened, late in the evening, something like that. 3 Q: And did you go on to the Army Camp 4 in July or early August? 5 A: I think it was early August, maybe. 6 I went -- I was going to go inside the Base and see how 7 much non band -- band members were in the Base, because 8 I heard a -- a lot of them that were in there were not 9 from our -- Kettle or Stoney Point. I didn't get far in 10 the Base; I -- I got in there a little ways and I was 11 told to leave. 12 Q: And you were told by one (1) of the 13 people who were at the Base to leave? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And was that one (1) of the members 16 of the Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- who told you to leave? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: And -- so you left? 21 A: Yeah, I left. Well, she was riding 22 right beside me yelling me at the top of her lungs, so I 23 thought I might as well leave. 24 Q: Okay. And was -- what was the 25 response of the Council of the Kettle and Stony Point
311 First Nation to the occupation of the barracks by the 2 individuals who did that on July 29th? Did you have a 3 meeting? 4 A: A lot of the older -- older people 5 wanted to have a meeting -- 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: -- and some of the Council were kind 8 of worried that it was getting kind of out of hand. 9 They were kind of concerned that the Army would just 10 walk out of there without notifying what they were going 11 to do first. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: My concern was with non-Band 14 members -- 15 Q: And why -- 16 A: -- being in there. I was getting 17 told by some of the old people that some of these non- 18 Band members in there were starting to get really 19 radical and a lot of our young people were starting to 20 listen to them. It changed from when I was there. 21 When -- when we stayed there, we weren't 22 like that. We were told, Don't be pushing, don't be -- 23 don't -- don't be violent or anything and I was afraid 24 it was starting to turn that way with these other people 25 coming in from other First Nations with their beliefs.
321 Q: But isn't it a fact, Mr. George, 2 that people from different First Nations will visit 3 other First Nations to give them support and that that 4 was happening here? 5 A: Yeah. Well, that happened -- that 6 happened at our road block. People would come there, 7 sure, but then -- then they'd leave. You know, they -- 8 they don't set up and stay; they leave and -- and you 9 don't go there. 10 You should -- when you go to a First 11 Nation, you go to the leadership of that First Nation 12 and ask what the issues are, then you start helping. 13 You just don't go in and start filling other peoples' 14 heads with things, saying, Oh, yeah, we agree with you. 15 You should be separate, you know, and 16 elected officials, you know, they -- they don't stand 17 for nothing because they're Indian Affairs and that's 18 basically -- basically what was going on. 19 Q: So, part of your concern was that 20 there was -- the people who were from outside the First 21 Nation from other First Nations who were there were 22 supporting what you called the separatist movement? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- so that was your real 25 concern?
331 A: Yes, that was my concern. Plus the 2 young people were getting the -- the wrong ideas in 3 their heads. 4 Q: And your -- when you say, "The wrong 5 ideas," I take it that as an Anishnaabek person, you are 6 part of the Three Feathers Confederacy? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Three Fires. 10 Q: Three Fires -- excuse me -- 11 Confederacy and your concern was that some of these 12 people were from other -- not from the Three -- Three 13 Fires Confederacy? 14 A: Yes, I was. Some of them were from 15 the -- from the States and some of them were from the 16 Oneida First Nation. 17 Q: And -- and those First Nations were 18 not part of the Three (3) Fires Confederacy? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And on August the 1st, I understand 21 there was a meeting of -- at the Kettle and Stony Point 22 First Nation? 23 A: Yes, there was, in the evening. 24 Q: And was that meeting called in 25 response to the occupation of the barracks on July 29th?
341 A: Because of that and basically the 2 way it was starting to unfold for the last couple of 3 months. And the non-Band members there was also an 4 issue with some of our Elders. 5 Q: Elders who were from Stoney Point 6 originally, and who -- 7 A: Yeah, were born there. Real Stoney 8 Pointers. 9 Q: And who were -- wanted to move back 10 or had moved back into the barracks? 11 A: Yeah, they wanted to move back but a 12 lot of them moved -- moved out of there. One person 13 that talked to me a lot was Angeline Shawkence, but 14 she's -- she passed away and another one was Gladys 15 Lundehn. She's also passed away. 16 Gladys Lundehn was a real Stoney Pointer, 17 because she was born and lived there and she was moved 18 out and she always had concerns every time. She used to 19 come and see me and she'd say, this person asked me to 20 leave from the beach down there today and I don't even 21 know who he was. 22 And that really got me angry that Gladys 23 Lundehn could not even go and enjoy the Stoney Point 24 beach without some -- some other native from -- who has 25 nothing to do with Kettle and Stony Point come up to her
351 and say, you're not allowed here. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: That -- that -- that kind of thing 4 really -- really got me angry. 5 Q: And 1995, or 1990 -- did Ms. Lundehn 6 tell you when this took place? 7 A: She didn't tell me the date, but she 8 told me it was on the beach at Stoney Point before -- it 9 must have been before the meeting. 10 Q: So that would have been in 1995 or 11 1994? 12 A: 1995. Could have been any time in 13 the summer there. She didn't give me the date. 14 Q: And how old was she at that point in 15 1995? 16 A: Jeez, late 60's maybe. 17 Q: And Angeline Shawkence? 18 A: Angie was probably about the same 19 age, I guess. I think Angie -- I think Angie's parents 20 just owned land at Stoney Point. I think Angeline grew 21 up on Kettle Point. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: I think Angie grew up on Kettle 24 Point, but her -- I think some of her family had -- had 25 land down Stoney Point.
361 Q: And had either Ms. Shawkence or Ms. 2 Lundehn, had they moved onto the Army Camp during the -- 3 the occupation of the rifle ranges, do you know? 4 A: I think Gladys was there. Some of 5 her family was there. I can't remember all the camp -- 6 who belonged to all the campgrounds. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: But I remember some of her extended 9 family had campgrounds. Hubert George and Londen she'd 10 go visit them a lot. 11 Q: And the meeting that took place on 12 August the 1st, if you turn to Tab 4 of that book in 13 front of you there's a copy of some minutes and those 14 minutes were marked as Exhibit P-43 already and it's 15 Inquiry Document Number 3000374. 16 And the councillors that were present on 17 August the 1st, 1995 are listed under the heading "Chief 18 and Council present"? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you're noted as being present? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell me, in your letter 23 to the editor that was marked as Exhibit P-119, you 24 indicated there were seven (7) councillors who had close 25 ties with -- back in 1990 --
371 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- with Stoney Point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you tell me, looking at the 5 list, which of the Councillors that are listed had ties 6 to Stoney Point. 7 Firstly, starting with Chief Tom 8 Bressette, did he? 9 A: From what I see, I really -- 10 everyone has ties to Stoney Point on this list. 11 Q: Everyone did? 12 A: Basically. I don't see how you can 13 really separate the two (2). 14 Q: Well, when you referred to in your 15 letter of -- to the editor in February of 1994 of the 16 people, seven (7) of the Council had close ties to 17 Stoney Point, what did you mean by that? 18 A: That they -- they had roots at 19 Stoney Point, just like -- just like I did. Like Tom 20 Bressette, Bob Bressette, Norman Shawnoo's family owned 21 land; Bonni Bressette; I think Bud George; I think Al 22 Bressette. I think Steve Wolfe, in a way, Liz 23 Thunder's, the Band Administrator, her father was born 24 at Stoney Point. 25 Q: So that -- and like you, they had
381 relatives who lived in and had other parents or 2 grandparents who had lived on Stoney Point. Is that -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And Yvonne Bressette is Bonni 5 Bressette? She's known as Bonni Bressette? 6 A: Yeah. Yeah, that's her, Bonni 7 Bressette. 8 Q: And at that meeting I understand 9 that a number of people spoke and you spoke as well; is 10 that correct? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And your concern is on -- you 13 express your concern on pages 18 and 19? At the bottom 14 of eighteen (18) and the top of page 19? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your concern was -- what was 17 your concern at the time when you spoke at the meeting 18 of August the 1st? 19 A: My concern was mostly the non-Band 20 members that were there. 21 Q: And that concern is reflected on the 22 top of Page 19. You're concerned that -- that you were 23 Anishnaabe and some of the people in there were 24 Iroquois? 25 A: Yes.
391 Q: And the Iroquois Nation was not part 2 of the Three Fires Confederacy? 3 A: No, they weren't. 4 Q: And the flag that was flying, you 5 felt, was an Iroquois flag and not an Anishnaabek flag? 6 A: Yeah, it's a Mohawk warrior flag. 7 Q: And you objected to that? 8 A: Yes, I objected to that. 9 Q: And the -- after the meeting of 10 August the 1st, and as part of -- actually before I 11 leave that -- as part of the meeting of August the 1st, 12 there were discussions about a statement of principles 13 for negotiations and that related to the negotiations 14 with the Federal Government for the Army Camp? Is that 15 correct? 16 A: Yes, I believe so. 17 Q: And the -- after this meeting there 18 was a decision made by Council to deliver a letter to 19 Stoney Point -- to the people living at Stoney Point? 20 And I'm referring to Exhibit P-30, which, if I could 21 just see it, Mr. Registrar, for a moment... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: If you just take a moment, Mr.
401 George, and take a look at Exhibit P-30 and... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And it's Inquiry Document Number 6 2001697. And what was the purpose, as you recall it, of 7 this letter Exhibit P-30, Mr. George? 8 A: The purpose was to -- was to mostly 9 see if the non-Band members there would leave. 10 Q: The non-members -- Band members 11 leave? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did you participate in 14 delivering this letter? 15 A: Yeah. Most of the council went down 16 there with the chief. 17 Q: And when did you go down -- on 18 August 3rd or the next day August 4th, do you recall? 19 A: I think it was the next day, I'm not 20 sure. 21 Q: Yes. And what did you do? Did you 22 take a number of these letters? 23 A: We took maybe about hundred and 24 fifty (150) to two hundred (200), a stack about maybe 25 about that thick.
411 Q: And you -- you're indicating a stack 2 of about two (2) inches? 3 A: Yeah. About that. 4 Q: And what did -- what happened? Tell 5 us what happened. 6 A: We went to the front gate and the 7 chief was asking to see whoever was in charge. Nobody 8 would come to the gate. And I saw this one (1) non-Band 9 member, Russ Jewel was standing in the background just 10 looking at us. 11 And one of the older people come up and 12 asked us what we wanted and we tried to give the 13 letters, and she -- she didn't want any. 14 Q: And so did you leave the letters? 15 A: Yeah we left them on the gatehouse, 16 on the step. 17 Q: And what happened with the letters? 18 A: As we were pulling away, one (1) of 19 the young people grabbed -- grabbed the stack of letters 20 and threw them in the back of Al Bressette's truck as 21 they were pulling away. 22 Q: And were some of the letters left or 23 do you know if they -- 24 A: I'm not sure. I just saw him grab 25 the stack and throw them in the back of Al's truck.
421 Q: And I understand as well in August - 2 - early August of 1995, you spoke to the London Free 3 Press? 4 A: Yeah, I must have. 5 Q: And at Tab 5 of the book in front of 6 you there's a reference to -- there's an article from 7 the London Free Press dated August 3, 1995, it's Inquiry 8 Document Number 2001978. And do you see that Mr. 9 George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the -- there's a reference to 12 you at the bottom in the first column towards the bottom 13 of the first column, about a Kettle and Stony Point Band 14 Councillor who was among Natives who moved onto the land 15 in May 1993 but left four (4) months later when the 16 repossession, quote, 17 "started taking a bad [I take it was] 18 turn", close quote. "Said Natives at 19 the Army Camp do have weapons." 20 And what were you referring to when you 21 said -- when you're referring to weapons? 22 A: I said they have guns. 23 Q: They had guns? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what were you referring to when
431 you said they had guns? 2 A: I said they had guns because 3 everybody hunts in there. 4 Q: Because they were hunters? 5 A: Everyone hunts in there, it's what I 6 said. 7 Q: And so that when you spoke to the 8 reporter, you told the reporter that people were hunters 9 and so they had guns because they were hunters? 10 A: Yeah, but they usually don't put 11 that in there. They use other terms, weapons, assault 12 rifles. When you have -- when you say guns, they like 13 changing the words. 14 Q: So you -- but -- so when you spoke 15 to the reporter you said that because these people were 16 hunters, they had guns and -- 17 A: I said people hunt there in the fall 18 all the time. They hunt deer, they have guns. There's 19 guns on the Army -- Army Base. That's what I said and 20 it turned out to be weapons -- not weapons, guns. 21 Q: So the quote where it says "weapons" 22 is -- well, it's not -- did you say 23 "there were weapons down there, I'm not 24 fooled by them"? 25 A: I said they have guns down there. I
441 don't know if I said that I'm not fooled by them. They 2 have -- there's guns down there. 3 Q: And your concern again is expressed 4 that because of the non-Band members that were there? 5 A: Yes, they were -- the non-Band 6 members were -- were starting to -- our young people 7 were starting to listen more and more to them. One (1) 8 of the main ones I was concerned about was an individual 9 named Les Jewels. I'm not sure where he was from but 10 what I was hearing, he had a large influence down there. 11 Q: Did you know Les Jewel? 12 A: No, I didn't. I met him once on 13 Kettle Point, maybe in '91, '92. And he was -- I think 14 he was visiting with Bernard George at Bernard's cabinet 15 shop and from what I can remember, he wasn't making much 16 sense -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- when he was talking to Bernard. 19 Q: But you don't know which First 20 Nation Mr. Jewel was from? 21 A: I think he was from the States. 22 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark as 23 the next exhibit would be P-120, this extract from the 24 London Free Press? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-120, your Honour.
451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 2 you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO P-120: Document No. 2001978, London 5 Free Press, Section A, Aug 6 03/95 "Ipperwash Takeover" 7 Reference to Gerald George. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Now in the -- after August the 3rd, 11 what did you do as a councillor in relation to -- in 12 relation to the Army Camp? 13 Did you attempt to visit the Army Camp 14 again? Did you -- 15 A: No. No. 16 Q: Okay. And when you're referring to 17 guns on the Army Camp, the guns that were used for 18 hunting, what kind of guns were you aware of that 19 members of the -- members of your First Nation had on 20 the Army Camp? 21 What type of guns? 22 A: Mostly deer hunting rifles, .22s and 23 a shot gun. 24 Q: And were you aware of any semi- 25 automatic rifles?
461 A: I heard one (1) of the guys had a 2 SKS. Just a semi-automatic Chinese. 3 Q: And a SKS -- Chinese SKS, can you 4 tell us a little bit more about what kind of rifle that 5 is? 6 A: It's just a -- I call them a junk 7 gun. They're not really worth anything. They're -- 8 they're -- the manufactured by Norinco 7.6 2x39, it's a 9 short Russian, 308 semi-automatic. You feed it by 10 stripper clip as a fixed ten (10) round mag, but you 11 can't pull the mag off the -- off the body, but it drops 12 down to be cleaned. 13 Q: So it would drop down once the 14 clip's done, it has to be reloaded manually? 15 A: Yeah, you -- you got through the 16 top. 17 Q: Oh, I see. And was -- is this a 18 rifle that's used for hunting? 19 A: When we had a deer cull in 1998, our 20 first deer cull, one (1) of the guys -- that's the only 21 kind of gun he had, so I allowed him to use it. He was 22 from Kettle Point. 23 Q: And that was -- the deer cull you're 24 referring to is the deer cull at Pinery Park? 25 A: Yeah.
471 Q: And so the -- that gentleman from 2 Kettle Point used that rifle -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- for -- 5 A: No, it's good round for a short 6 range under a hundred (100) yards, because you can get a 7 quick follow up shot, because it's a semi-automatic. 8 It's a good round for deer, like 308, short. 9 Q: Okay. And so there was -- you were 10 aware of one of these SKS semi-automatic rifles that 11 there were shotguns and .22s that members used for 12 hunting? 13 A: Yeah, the SKS was hearsay. I heard 14 that through one (1) of my cousins. 15 Q: But those are the guns that you are 16 -- the types of guns that you are -- the guns you were 17 talking about when you spoke to the reporter? 18 A: Yeah, hunting rifles and stuff, 19 because I told them I hunted myself and then when I was 20 there. 21 Q: Pardon me? You told her that you 22 hunted when you were in there, too? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Now if I could take you to Tab 6 of 25 the book in front of you and this is Exhibit 73. It's a
481 letter to the editor that was published in the Forest 2 Standard on August the 30th, 1995. If you just take a 3 moment and look at that. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, I 8 don't think this -- this is not part of the database, 9 but it -- we handed it out before and we handed extra 10 copies out yesterday, so it was among the -- the 11 material we handed out yesterday. 12 And the -- you're responding, I see, in 13 this Exhibit 73 to an article in the -- in the Forest 14 Standard. Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I note that on this copy it says 17 that it was published on Wednesday, August the 30th. 18 Can you tell me, is the Forest Standard 19 normally published on a Wednesday? Or was it back in 20 1995? 21 A: I think it was Monday. You had to 22 have them in there the Monday before the Wednesday. 23 Q: So that it was published on 24 Wednesday -- 25 A: Yeah.
491 Q: -- and letters to the editor had to 2 be in by the Monday before the Wednesday? 3 A: Yeah, from what I can remember. 4 Q: And why did you write this letter? 5 A: I wrote that letter because we had 6 reports coming in that some of the campers were being 7 harassed when they were on the -- the beach of the Army 8 Camp and when they were camping inside the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park. 10 Q: And why was that of concern to you? 11 A: It was starting to affect the Band 12 membership as a whole from the actions of a few. A lot 13 of trouble was happening at the high school in Forest 14 between our kids and the non-native kids. 15 As this went along and after -- after 16 these reports were coming out, it started getting worse 17 at the highschool for our kids out there. And I was 18 getting quite angry because even some of my friends in 19 Forest, they stopped talking to me and I was feeling 20 that from the actions of a few, it was reflecting on the 21 Band membership as a whole. 22 And again, Council did not want to put 23 anything in the paper to say we didn't -- we weren't 24 supporting this kind of action, that we were -- I think 25 a lot of people in a certain area thought Kettle and
501 Stony Point Band Council was supporting this action. 2 Q: And when you say, "this action," it 3 was -- this is before the occupation of the Provincial 4 Park. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: But the action of -- of member -- 7 people at Stoney -- at the Army Camp asking non- 8 aboriginal people to leave the beach in front of the -- 9 be in front of the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when you say that the relations 12 with the community were being adversely affected and the 13 children in high school, in August of 1995 it's -- isn't 14 it fair to say that the children would not have been at 15 high school, so you're referring to a period of time 16 before that? 17 A: Before that, in the winter. Well, 18 the kids would still be our friends, you know, and they 19 work and I was concerned that no one would hire them. 20 Just the affect and then there was another movement 21 starting in the Ipperwash area amongst the non-native 22 cottagers. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: Reform party type things. You can - 25 - they'd have meetings here and there and it just wasn't
511 helping. 2 Q: So, you were concerned about the 3 affect on your -- the wider community of your First 4 Nation, the affect on them and -- and with respect to 5 the relationship with other members of the community -- 6 the non-aboriginal members as a community? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And were you aware that there was, 9 as you put it, reform-type policies being talked about 10 by non-aboriginal people? 11 A: They were starting to -- we were all 12 concerned about the Reform Party or whatever they want 13 to call themselves back then because they -- they were 14 already starting to get people ready for the provincial 15 election in '94; things like that. 16 They wanted to get the -- voted into 17 power, eh? But the next thing got voted in, I guess -- 18 Harris' government. But anyway, that's basically -- I 19 was really angry that, you know, we were being reflected 20 on -- like, we were all doing that. 21 Q: And that's why you wrote this 22 letter? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you used very strong language in 25 this letter, you would agree with me?
521 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you would agree with me that 3 people that you were writing this letter about would not 4 be happy about the letter? 5 A: Probably not. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: If I -- if I went back, I would have 8 just -- I shouldn't have said all the Band -- all the 9 people who lived at the Base, I should have said just 10 the people who were partaking in this action. 11 Q: And in this action you were 12 referring to people who were -- you had heard, harassing 13 people on the Stoney Point Beach? 14 A: And on the -- and in the Park. 15 Q: And in the Park? 16 A: We were getting reports from Les 17 Kobayashi to tell what was happening. 18 Q: And you were getting reports from 19 Mr. Kobayashi that -- that members of the First Nation 20 were -- were approaching people in the Park? 21 A: Yeah, on the outer edge of the Park. 22 Q: And when you say the outer edge of 23 the park, if I could just throw up -- 24 A: The fenced area. 25 Q: And the area that you're referring
531 to, we've got a copy of Exhibit P-40 on the screen, 2 along Matheson Drive as it turns north to the Lake 3 Huron; is that what you're referring to? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And how many reports did you receive 6 from Mr. Kobayashi about that? 7 A: I can't remember. 8 Q: Was it a large number or a few? 9 A: No. It was mostly coming through -- 10 through -- he talked to my uncle and Liz would hear it 11 and -- 12 Q: When you say your uncle, your uncle 13 was who? 14 A: Gordon. Gord Cloud. 15 Q: Gord Cloud? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And Liz is Liz Thunder, the Band 18 Administrator? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you speak directly to Mr. 21 Kobayashi about these -- these concerns? 22 A: No. We left that to Tom. Tom went 23 to speak to him. 24 Q: And Tom is Tom Bressette? 25 A: Yeah, the chief.
541 Q: And prior to the occupation of the 2 Park on September 4th, 1995, had you heard anything 3 about the Park and the intention of people to occupy the 4 Park? 5 A: Just hearsay. 6 Q: And when you say just hearsay, what 7 are you -- you referring to? You heard -- people told 8 you that they had heard that -- 9 A: They were -- they were thinking 10 about the Park. I didn't know what -- they were going 11 go in and take it over, just that some people were 12 talking about the Ipperwash Park. 13 Q: And this was before September 4th? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And was there anything -- did you 16 hear anything specific about people going into -- into 17 the Provincial Park? 18 A: No. Not really, to give a good clue 19 that they were going to. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: Not to give a really good clue that 22 they were going to. 23 Q: And did you have any indication or 24 any feeling from what you had been told as to when this 25 might happen?
551 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But the best time to do it would be 4 after campers leave. 5 Q: And that's at the end of the Labour 6 Day weekend? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is that what you anticipated? 9 A: Yes. I thought if anything was 10 going to happen, like I just thought maybe they'd go and 11 set up a couple of tents and stay there like they did in 12 '93. 13 Q: Like they did in '93 -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- when they moved onto the rifle 16 ranges? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And that's what you anticipated? 19 A: That's what I thought was going to 20 happen, yeah. 21 Q: And how did you learn of the 22 occupation? 23 A: Band members, then some of the 24 media. 25 Q: And did you learn on September 4th?
561 A: Basically when it was happening. A 2 little while after that kind of learned about it. 3 Q: And when did you first go down to 4 the Park? 5 A: I was probably just riding around 6 there maybe about a little while after. Maybe the next 7 day. 8 Q: On September 5th? 9 A: Yeah. I started going by there. 10 Q: And when you say you started to go 11 down there, what do you mean by that? You -- 12 A: Just for a ride. 13 Q: But would you -- 14 A: On East Parkway up Army Camp Road, 15 down 21 to Outer Drive and back again. 16 Q: So, that you did not go into the 17 Park or into the Army Camp? 18 A: I -- I don't think I was allowed in 19 there at the time. 20 Q: But -- so you drove, you would dri - 21 - on September 5th you'd drive down along East Parkway 22 Drive, on Army Camp Road on Highway 21 and down Outer 23 Drive as well? 24 A: Yeah. And Bernard was with me a 25 couple of times; he went in his blue truck. And I think
571 on a -- middle afternoon of the -- the 5th, we were just 2 coming back twenty-one (21), almost to Outer Drive when 3 we were stopped. 4 Q: And you were stopped by who? 5 A: The police. 6 Q: And why did they -- whereabouts did 7 they stop you, Mr. George? 8 A: In about a half a kilometre north of 9 Outer Drive on twenty-one (21). 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: So on Exhibit P-40, what Outer Drive 14 is, just at the boundary on the eastern boundary of -- 15 and so that you were stopped a half mile east of Outer 16 Drive on Highway 21? 17 A: Yeah, about there. 18 Q: Half a kilometre. My Friend, Mr. 19 Ross, says that I'm -- 20 A: Well, I -- 21 Q: -- showing my age. 22 A: I said about -- maybe three quarter 23 kilometre, kilometre. She said half a mile, so -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- around that area.
581 Q: So, it was three quarters (3/4) of a 2 kilometre east of Outer Drive that you were stopped? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And how many police officers stopped 5 you? 6 A: I think there were two (2) cars, 7 about four (4) police and they -- and they made us get 8 out of the truck and they were searching the truck. 9 Q: And did they say anything to do? 10 A: Not really. Just asked us what we 11 were doing. Bernard said we were riding on the road. 12 They said where are you going? He said we're going 13 home. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: They just searched the truck. 16 Q: But they searched the truck? 17 A: Yeah, and checked the licence and 18 our ID and everything. 19 Q: And when you say they searched the 20 truck, did they go inside the cab of the truck? 21 A: Yeah. They tilted the seat forward 22 and they were looking under the seats and everything. 23 Q: And this was a half-ton truck? 24 A: Yeah, a Chevy -- blue Chev, a 25 Wrangler.
591 Q: And did they look in the trunk? 2 A: Trunk? 3 Q: I mean, not in the trunk, but in 4 the -- 5 A: The box? 6 Q: In the box? 7 A: Yeah, they were looking all over the 8 truck. And they even lifted the hood up if I can 9 remember correctly. 10 Q: The hood? 11 A: Yeah, I think they lifted the hood 12 up. 13 Q: And how long were you stopped by the 14 police officers? 15 A: Probably about fifteen (15) minutes, 16 something like that. 17 Q: And were they stopping other cars 18 that you observed? 19 A: Non-natives kept riding by. They 20 just stopped us. 21 Q: So, that you non-aboriginal people 22 drive by and were not stopped but did you see any 23 aboriginal people drive by when you were being stopped? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And after you left, after you were
601 stopped, can you -- what time of day do you recall; was 2 it morning, afternoon of September 5th? 3 A: The sun was maybe just a foot above 4 the horizon. Maybe about 4:30. 5 Q: Okay. And were you in Forest on 6 September 5th? 7 A: I went for a ride to Forest a couple 8 times. 9 Q: And did you -- do you recall if it 10 was on the 5th or the 6th did you -- I know it's a long 11 time ago -- 12 A: The 5th and 6th I was in the Forest 13 and back again. 14 Q: And what did you observe in Forest? 15 A: On the 5th there was a -- some 16 police cars at the OPP station. 17 Q: And that's the OPP station that's 18 just south of the intersection of twenty-one (21), as -- 19 King Street really, in Forest, along Townsend? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: On the 5th, I start seeing more 23 cruisers and they were -- most of the time they weren't 24 by themselves, there were usually two (2) or three (3) 25 cruisers riding around together; around -- down around
611 Kettle Point and then around down to Stoney Point area. 2 Q: And when you were in Forest, did you 3 observe anything different about the Detachment at the - 4 - the Forest Detachment? 5 A: There seemed to be a lot of cruisers 6 there. 7 Q: And was there a trailer there on 8 September the 5th? 9 A: they have their white trailer. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: A white trailer, if I can remember 12 correctly. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: But there's a lot of cruisers going 15 in and out of Forest, down toward the -- the Army Camp 16 way. 17 Q: More cruisers than normal? 18 A: Yeah, yeah. 19 Q: And on September 6th, were you in 20 Forest? 21 A: Yes, I was in Forest several times. 22 I came to the grocery store here, I remember, and I went 23 for a ride around again. 24 Q: And did -- what did you observe with 25 respect to the Ontario Provincial Police in Forest on
621 the 6th? 2 A: More police. 3 Q: And were there -- can you tell us 4 where you observed the police? 5 A: Around the police station in town, 6 going in and out of the twenty-one (21) and the curve 7 and there was -- I saw a couple, actually, back by the 8 ball diamond here. 9 Q: And -- and when you say, back by the 10 ball diamond here, you're talking about Kimball Hall in 11 Forest -- the parking lot that's just to -- out -- 12 outside Kimball Hall and there is a ball diamond at the 13 east end of the parking lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you observed police cars there? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Can you recall how many? 18 A: I think two (2). I'm not sure if 19 there was another one behind them. 20 Q: Okay. And on September 6th were you 21 stopped by any police officers? 22 A: I -- no. 23 Q: No? 24 A: Just at the -- just at the 25 roadblocks when I'd go for -- when I went up Army Camp
631 Road and down to East Parkway. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: They were stopping check. 4 Q: Okay. We'll get to that in a 5 moment. When you -- on September 6th, when did you go 6 down to -- I take it from what you've just told me that 7 you did go down to the area around the Army Camp and the 8 Park. Can you tell me what time of day it was? 9 A: It was all times of the day, I was 10 going back and forth there. I was going there -- I 11 started there in, maybe about the afternoon -- 12 Q: The afternoon? 13 A: -- after three o'clock. 14 Q: After three o'clock? 15 A: Yeah, it was after three o'clock. 16 Q: And why were you going -- you had 17 been down by the Army Camp and the Park on September 5th 18 and why did you go back there on September 6th? 19 A: Just to see how much police were in 20 the area. 21 Q: Just to see how many police were in 22 the area? 23 A: To see if I could see what kind of 24 guns they had. 25 Q: And so your principle purpose was to
641 observe the police officers? 2 A: Yeah, just to get information. 3 Q: And on the 6th, was -- on the 5th 4 you went for at least one (1) ride with Mr. Cecil 5 Bernard George, on the 6th was Mr. Cecil Bernard George 6 with you? 7 A: No. Just -- just on the 5th when we 8 got pulled over. 9 Q: Just on the 5th? And you say that 10 when you can recall on September 6th when you went down 11 after three o'clock, you say that you were stopped by -- 12 at checkpoints? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: Checkpoints on Army Camp Road. 16 Q: And on Army Camp Road -- as I 17 understand it, there are two (2) campgrounds or trailer 18 parks along Army Camp Road. There's one (1) called the 19 Silver Birches Campground and another one that doesn't 20 have a name, but it's closer to the Matheson Drive -- 21 it's on the west side of Army Camp Road. 22 Can you tell me in relation to Matheson 23 Drive or those two (2) campgrounds where the checkpoint 24 was that stopped you on September 6th? 25 A: I think it was right around the
651 entrance to the -- to the second campground. 2 Q: And that's the -- the campground 3 that's closer to Matheson Drive? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And that would be -- 6 A: Right around there somewhere. 7 Q: So, you're pointing to an area on 8 Exhibit P-40 that is just south of Matheson Drive and -- 9 perhaps what I'll ask you to do is, on -- there's a map 10 in front of you, Mr. George. 11 If you could mark -- I'm going to ask you 12 to mark a couple of things. If -- we're going to mark 13 this -- I'm going to stop for a moment and back up. 14 Could you mark on the map where your uncle's camp was 15 back in 1993 -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- on the map in front of you? 18 There's a red pen there or a blue pen, it doesn't 19 matter. Could you just mark the area on -- and we'll 20 mark this map as the next exhibit, Commissioner. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-121. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 121. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-121. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-121: Document No. 1002409 Page 13
661 Map of Ipperwash Military 2 Reserve Marked by Witness Mr. 3 Gerald George Jan 13/05 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Could you put the number 1 beside 7 that, Mr. George? 8 A: (INDICATING) 9 Q: And, then, could you mark on Exhibit 10 121 the -- where the checkpoint was that you were 11 stopped at on September 6th? The approximate location. 12 And could you put a number 2 beside that? 13 A: (INDICATING) 14 Q: And, you've marked the number 2 in 15 the area close to where the cursor is on this copy of 16 Exhibit 121 and how many police officers were at this 17 checkpoint, Mr. George? 18 A: Maybe four (4). 19 Q: And, what happened? 20 A: They just stopped and they wanted to 21 look in the trunk, so I let them look in the trunk. 22 Just popped the trunk. I didn't have to get out of the 23 car. 24 Q: And, did they -- 25 A: They checked my ID and let me go.
671 Q: And did you tell them that you were 2 a Band councillor? 3 A: I can't remember. 4 Q: And, what did -- what did they say 5 to you? Did they tell you why they were stopping you? 6 A: They just wanted to search the car. 7 They didn't say what for. 8 Q: And while you were there, did you 9 observe other cars go by the checkpoint? 10 A: I can't really remember. 11 Q: Okay. And were you stopped -- so, 12 after you were stopped at this checkpoint, you drove 13 north up by the Provincial Park and then west on East 14 Parkway Drive, is that correct? 15 A: No, at that time I was coming from 16 East Parkway Drive going up Army Camp Road to 21. 17 Q: So you were stopped on your way, you 18 had been by the Park and you were going towards Highway 19 21? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And were you stopped at that point 22 by -- at any checkpoint on East Parkway Drive? 23 A: I really can't remember, but I 24 remember seeing a couple of cruisers down there. 25 Q: And, can you tell the Commissioner
681 where the cruisers were? Were they -- we know there's a 2 Ministry of Natural Resources Parking lot on East 3 Parkway Drive. Was -- was that where they parked? 4 A: Yeah, they -- they were just on the 5 edge of that -- the parking lot. 6 Q: And that's located on the south side 7 of East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yeah, on the south side of the road. 9 Q: And, so after you made the 10 observations that you did, with respect to the police 11 officers on the afternoon of September 6th, did you 12 return to Kettle Point? 13 A: Yeah, I went back to Kettle Point. 14 Q: And did you have any discussions 15 with anyone at Kettle Point? Did you report what you 16 had seen? 17 A: I think I told Bernard that I seen 18 more and more cops that day. 19 Q: Yeah. And Bernard, you're talking 20 about your cousin, Cecil Bernard George? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yes. And did you speak to the -- to 23 Chief Tom Bressette about the -- that you'd seen more 24 police? 25 A: Yeah, I told him that I'd seen more
691 and more cops down there. 2 Q: And the -- what, if anything, did 3 the Chief Tom Bressette, say about that? 4 A: I really can't remember. I just 5 told him, I'd go for another ride later and take another 6 look and see what's going on. 7 Q: And, why did you want to know what 8 was going on? What -- what were you concerned about? 9 A: I thought it was starting to get out 10 of hand, because all the police were -- there was more 11 and more police coming into the area and I kind of 12 thought they don't do that unless you're going to do 13 something. 14 And the guys in the Army Base were riding 15 up and down the road real fast and a lot of cars. It 16 seemed like there was a lot of people in the Park. 17 Q: So when you were there in the 18 afternoon of the 6th, you observed people in the Park 19 and you observed people driving up and down Army Camp 20 Road on the road that's just on the inside of the Army 21 Camp? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And, what else did you observe in 24 the afternoon either at the Army Camp, as you drove 25 along Army Camp Road, or in the Park?
701 A: We got stopped -- we got stopped at 2 that checkpoint again and some of the guys went by in a 3 dump truck, some of them were yelling and it was kind of 4 odd. I saw some of the police were yelling things back 5 and I kind of thought that was odd because officers 6 ain't suppose to respond to that kind of thing. 7 Q: So that this was the time you were 8 stopped at the checkpoint in the afternoon of September 9 6th? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So that people, on the inside of the 12 Army Camp, were yelling at the police and the police 13 were yelling back? 14 A: A couple of the police, yeah. Not 15 the ones at the checkpoint. But there was some other 16 police standing near the road. About maybe a hundred 17 (100) metres in front of the checkpoint. 18 Q: And when you say in front, they were 19 -- were they north or south of -- 20 A: Toward Highway 21. 21 Q: Towards Highway 21. So they were 22 south of the checkpoint? 23 A: Yeah. I kind of thought it was 24 coming apart. If the -- if the police were starting to 25 lose their cool like that -- because what I was -- from
711 my experience with police, you're not really suppose to 2 respond to that kind of thing. And these guys were like 3 doing that. 4 Q: So that the -- the occupiers, the 5 people on the inside of the Army Camp, you observed, 6 heard shouting -- I take it insults at the police 7 officers? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, the police officers shouted 10 insults back? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And that concerned you? 13 A: Yes it did. 14 Q: For the reason that you said that 15 police officers are not supposed to respond like that? 16 A: From my experience, no they're not 17 supposed to. 18 Q: And, that was a concern that -- and 19 why would having police officers act in that way -- why 20 was that of a concern? Other than perhaps being 21 unprofessional? 22 A: I felt that maybe they were -- they 23 were stationed at that checkpoint too long. Maybe it 24 was getting to them. They should have been replaced 25 with a fresh batch of police to take over that, if their
721 nerves were getting that bad. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Things like that. 4 Q: And, you went back later in the 5 afternoon to the Provincial Park and the area of the 6 Army Camp, is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the -- can you tell us what time 9 of day approximately it was -- it was that this 10 occurred, late afternoon, early evening? 11 A: Late afternoon -- well after I left 12 here I went to see Bernard again. 13 Q: Okay that was -- after the first 14 time you were there -- 15 A: After the second time I went to go 16 see Bernard again. 17 Q: Okay. Then this is my fault, not 18 your fault. But the first time you went in the 19 afternoon of September 6th, you were stopped at the 20 checkpoint by the -- close to the trailer park or 21 campground that's closest to Matheson Drive, is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And then, after you stopped -- were 25 stopped there you went back to Kettle Point. You spoke
731 to -- I thought you told me to Cecil Bernard George -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- and you spoke to Chief Tom 4 Bressette and -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- you told him about the buildup 7 that you observed of the police? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And then -- 10 A: I went back down. 11 Q: You went back down -- 12 A: Stopped again, at the checkpoint. 13 Q: And was this before the incident 14 with Stewart George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: So that -- did you go three (3) 17 times that afternoon? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. So the second time in the 20 afternoon you went back and it was -- what time was it? 21 A: The second time when I went back to 22 Kettle Point it must have been about -- maybe about 23 5:30, 6:00. 24 Q: And, so you drove -- how did you get 25 down to -- which route did you follow to get to the
741 Provincial Park and to Army Camp Road? How did you get 2 there? 3 A: I -- I come down East Parkway. 4 Usually I came down East Parkway. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Some -- sometimes I'd come down the 7 Army Camp Road. Most of the time I come up from East 8 Parkway. 9 Q: So the second time around 5:30 in 10 the afternoon on September 6th you drove back along East 11 Parkway. Did you observe any police officers at -- on 12 East Parkway Drive? 13 A: I think there was a couple of 14 cruisers there, the same ones that were there before. 15 Q: Again at the Ministry of Natural 16 Resources parking lot? 17 A: Yeah, it seemed that -- that's where 18 they were, that I saw them at. 19 Q: Was that the parking lot? Did you 20 see a St. Johns Ambulance trailer in the parking lot 21 that day on September 6th? 22 A: I really can't remember. 23 Q: Okay. And, so you drove down East 24 Parkway and you then turned north on -- I mean south, on 25 Army Camp Road?
751 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And what, if anything, did you 3 observe on this trip at the Provincial Park? Did you 4 drive into the sandy parking lot that runs from the 5 intersection up to Lake Huron? 6 A: Is this when I was stopped by the -- 7 when -- 8 Q: This was your second visit. I'm 9 just trying -- 10 A: Yeah, the second time when I got 11 stopped at the roadblock, again? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I just saw some -- I could see some 14 people inside the Park. 15 Q: Inside the Park? So did you stop at 16 that -- on that occasion -- 17 A: I -- 18 Q: -- or you just drove by? 19 A: No, I just drove by. 20 Q: And you were then stopped at the 21 check -- at -- is -- was it the same checkpoint? 22 A: Yeah, the same checkpoint. 23 Q: With the same officers? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: And what happened at -- when you
761 were stopped at this checkpoint? 2 A: Well that's when I said I saw the -- 3 the dump truck inside the Base and then the two (2) 4 officers exchanging -- 5 Q: So, okay -- 6 A: I don't think the guys in the dump 7 truck heard what they said, anyway, because they had 8 loud music playing in the dump truck. 9 Q: But -- but the exchange of -- the 10 police officers were yelling insults at the people 11 inside the Park on the second time you were stopped on 12 September 6th, at the checkpoint? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Not -- 15 A: It wasn't insults. I think they, 16 from what I can remember, I thought they said, Do we -- 17 do you even know what those words are saying? Something 18 like that, because they had loud music playing in the 19 dump truck. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Traditional music, so that --that's 22 one thing I can remember the officer said. They said 23 something else, I can't really remember what the other 24 guy said, because I couldn't really hear him. 25 Q: But the -- the person -- the dump
771 truck had traditional First Nation music? 2 A: Yeah. It had people in the back of 3 it. 4 Q: And so this exchange took place 5 around 5:30. People were driving back and forth on the 6 inside of the road, on Army Camp, that runs parallel to 7 Army Camp Drive? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, do you recall what the police 10 officers at the checkpoint said to you? 11 A: I really can't. 12 Q: And, did they check your car again? 13 A: They looked in the trunk but it was 14 just a quick check. 15 Q: Okay. And, after this trip at five 16 (5) -- around 5:30, did you observe any other police 17 officers on Army Camp Road after you went through the 18 checkpoint? 19 A: I think there was more police up 20 along Army Camp Road. 21 Q: And whereabouts -- 22 A: Mobile. Just cruisers coming down 23 there on the Camp Road, from what I can remember. 24 Q: And, where did you observe the 25 police officers going when you say they were coming down
781 Army Camp Road? Were they going north from Highway 21? 2 A: Yeah, they were going north. They 3 were right about there I met them. Just above the hill, 4 just past Silver Birches. 5 Q: Just past Silver Birches, they -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: The Silver Birches campground? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And the Silver Birches campground is 10 the campground that's -- the campground -- the first 11 campground you -- you -- you meet when you go north on 12 Army Camp Road? 13 A: Yeah, it's right at the hill. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: When you're starting to go up the 16 hill. 17 Q: Go up -- go up the hill towards the 18 Army Camp? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And, were the police -- were the 21 police cruisers stopped there or they -- were they 22 simply -- 23 A: They were mobile. 24 Q: They were mobile. 25 A: They were heading toward the beach.
791 Q: Heading towards the beach? And how 2 many police cruisers did you observe? 3 A: Two (2). 4 Q: Two (2)? And did you observe any 5 police officers at the intersection of Army Camp Road 6 and Highway 21? 7 A: I can't remember. I think there 8 might have been one (1) there earlier in the day, but 9 when I was heading back I don't think there was one (1) 10 there. 11 Q: And did you go back along Highway 12 21? 13 A: Yeah, I went back to Kettle Point on 14 21. 15 Q: And did you observe any police 16 officers at the Ravenswood Road or -- 17 A: I observed some police -- some more 18 police cars heading toward the Army Camp. 19 Q: They went -- 20 A: They didn't turn down Ravenswood 21 Road, they kept going. 22 Q: They went -- they went east on 23 Highway 21 towards the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, when you got back to the --
801 Kettle Point after this -- your second trip -- what did 2 you do? 3 A: I went and saw Bernard again and I 4 told him there's more -- I seen more police down there - 5 - more police coming from Forest, going toward the Army 6 Camp. 7 Q: Did you speak to Chief Bressette? 8 A: Yeah, I was -- No, I didn't speak to 9 him that time. I went -- I was going to go -- I told 10 Bernard I'm going to go take another look and see if 11 there's -- see how much more cops are going down there. 12 I didn't go see the chief that time. 13 Q: Okay. And, so, did you go back? 14 A: Yeah, I went back and that's -- 15 that's when that altercation occurred with Stewart 16 George. 17 Q: Okay. Now, when you went back to 18 the Provincial Park and the Army Camp later that 19 evening, I take it was in early -- the early evening, 20 just before dark? 21 A: I'd say maybe about an hour before 22 dark. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Maybe about forty-five (45) minutes. 25 Q: And how did you get there?
811 A: The car. 2 Q: And -- the same car you were driving 3 in the afternoon? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: It's a blue car, a blue Grand Am. 7 Q: A blue Grand Am? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And who did that car belong to? 10 A: My sister. 11 Q: And, your sister was older? 12 Younger? 13 A: Younger. 14 Q: Younger? And -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 16 do you think this would be a good time or do you want to 17 keep going? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, no this would 19 be a good time. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 21 getting into another area. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 24 this would be a good time to take a morning break. 25 We've been going for an hour -- just over an hour and a
821 half. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Thank you, 3 sir. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:54 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Thank you. Just before we broke, 15 Mr. George, we were about to -- you were about to tell 16 us about your third trip down to the Provincial Park and 17 the Army Camp on September 6th and I think you said that 18 it was approximately an hour before -- 19 A: Sunset. 20 Q: -- sunset when you went down and so, 21 could you tell us how you got to the area of the 22 Provincial Park, please? 23 A: I went down -- I come down West 24 Parkway and that leads to -- then you cross Ravenswood 25 Road --
831 Q: Yes, and West -- 2 A: -- or Ipperwash Road. 3 Q: -- West Parkway is a road that runs 4 parallel to the -- 5 A: 21, yeah. 6 Q: 21, but also parallel to the lake? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And from there you get onto East 10 Parkway and at East Parkway I went up and noticed a 11 couple of cruisers sitting there -- 12 Q: And you noticed -- 13 A: -- at the -- 14 Q: -- cruisers at the -- the Ministry 15 of Natural Resources Parking lot? 16 A: Yeah. Then I kept going toward the 17 -- the Park where you go around the curve. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: And I -- when I was slowing down, 20 coming to the curve, I saw a couple of people standing 21 out in the sand -- 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: -- and -- and I saw Stewart George 24 come out, waving me to stop. So I pulled over and 25 stopped.
841 Q: Yes? 2 A: Not on the road, but in -- in the 3 sand, kind of. 4 Q: And can -- behind you there's a map. 5 It's a copy of Exhibit P-23. Can you point out to us -- 6 and if you stand up, Mr. George, if you could take that 7 microphone -- that handheld microphone so that -- and if 8 you could take the black pen that's in front of you, 9 could you indicate on this copy of Exhibit P-23 where 10 you stopped? 11 A: Probably about here. 12 Q: And could you -- the mark that 13 you've drawn there is -- indicates where your car 14 stopped? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your car would be a little 17 larger than that but it was in approximately that 18 location? 19 A: Yes. On that side of the road in 20 the sand. 21 Q: On the west side of the road just at 22 the -- no, excuse me, on the east side of the road of 23 Army Camp Road just as it -- East Parkway turns south 24 and changes into Army Camp Road? 25 A: Yeah.
851 Q: And so where did you observe Mr. 2 Stewart George? Where was Mr. Stewart George when you 3 first observed him? 4 A: He was right around this area. 5 Q: And could you mark a number 1 beside 6 your car and mark number 2 -- could you mark where you - 7 - you saw Mr. Stewart George? And could you mark a 8 number 2 beside it? 9 A: That's supposed to be a 2. 10 Q: Okay. So that you marked a dot 11 where you saw Mr. Stewart George and you've marked 12 number 2 beside it? I think you can sit down now. 13 So that as you were approaching -- 14 driving east on East Parkway Drive towards the what has 15 been referred as the sandy parking lot but it's the area 16 that the access road to Lake Huron? You've been on that 17 prior to September 6th, 1995. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And it runs -- that road runs up to 20 Lake Huron? 21 A: Yeah. To the beach. 22 Q: And -- to the beach? And you 23 observed Mr. Stewart George, and was anyone with Mr. 24 Stewart George? 25 A: There was some young people there.
861 Q: And do you know -- can you tell us 2 how many young people? 3 A: Five (5). Maybe four (4) or five 4 (5). 5 Q: And did you recognize any of the 6 young people? 7 A: I recognized -- one (1) of them at 8 the time I didn't know his name until maybe about a 9 month later. It was J.T. 10 Q: And you're referring to Mr. J. T. 11 Cousins? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did you recognize any of the 14 other people that were with -- in the park -- were they 15 -- I take it they were in the parking lot near Mr. 16 George? 17 A: Yeah. At the time I recognized, I 18 didn't know his name either, I think it was Judas' boy. 19 Q: Nick -- Nicholas Cotrelle? 20 A: Yeah. I didn't really know his 21 name. I -- I remember how he looked from -- he worked 22 at -- he used to cut the grass down at Kettle Point Park 23 when I managed there. He worked for the roads crew. 24 Q: And what about David George? Do you 25 know David George?
871 A: Yeah. I didn't -- I didn't see Dave 2 George there. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: Can't remember if you saw him or 6 not? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And can you remember anybody else? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And so as you were driving down you 11 say that Stewart waved you down? Waved at you? 12 A: Yeah. Waved for me to pull over. 13 Q: And how fast were you driving when 14 you were coming down East Parkway as you approached the 15 intersection, the curve? 16 A: Not very fast, maybe about thirty 17 (30) -- thirty (30) clicks and then I started slowing 18 down at the curve. 19 Q: Yes. So you stopped, then what 20 happened? 21 A: I rolled down my window and Stewart 22 come up to the window and he's mad. 23 Q: And what was he mad about? Did he 24 say? 25 A: He's mad about the -- the letter I
881 put in the Forest Standard. 2 Q: And that letter that's been marked 3 Exhibit 73? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: The one that was published on August 6 the 30th? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: The one that which you used the 9 strong language? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And what exactly did Mr. Stewart 12 George say to you? Do you recall? 13 A: He was -- he was made. He said -- 14 he said my father lives in here, you shouldn't be 15 calling them animal and stuff like that. 16 And I said I didn't -- I didn't mean your 17 father, I meant the guys who were doing that to the 18 people in the Park. He just said you shouldn't be -- 19 you shouldn't be writing that kind of stuff. He was 20 quite angry over it. 21 Q: And his father was Abraham George? 22 A: I think so, yeah. 23 Q: And the -- so what did you say, if 24 anything? 25 A: I just said, Well, you guys
891 shouldn't be doing that kind of things to campers in the 2 Park, because it gets all over the place and it's making 3 us all look bad. 4 And when they -- I turned down to grab 5 something off my seat. When I did, I got punched in the 6 side of the head. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: When I looked away. 9 Q: Who punched you in the side of the 10 head? 11 A: Must have been Stewart, because he's 12 the only one standing there. 13 Q: And then what did you do? Did he 14 say anything to you, did you say anything to him? 15 A: No, I just said, What the hell -- 16 what the hell are you doing? I just pulled away and I 17 stopped and I said, What the hell you do that for? 18 And then I just whipped a stone, hit the 19 car. 20 Q: And where did it hit the car? 21 A: Back quarter panel, just behind the 22 driver's door. 23 Q: And so was -- do you recall any -- 24 anything else about the exchange with Mr. Stewart George 25 were -- that anything else had -- that was said?
901 A: I remember he was -- smelt like 2 beer. He -- that's why I thought he was drinking. 3 Speech was kind of slurred when he's standing beside -- 4 he's right -- like, right this close. I was sitting in 5 my car. I didn't get out of the car, I just stayed in 6 the car. 7 Q: So he was about a foot away from 8 you? 9 A: About a foot and a half. 10 Q: Yes. And you knew Mr. Stewart 11 George from before this incident? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And you and Mr. Stewart George 14 worked together, I think? 15 A: Yeah, for a time on the Kettle Point 16 school. 17 Q: As carpenters? Both of you are 18 carpenters? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And was the exchange between you a 21 calm exchange or a loud exchange? 22 A: Probably loud on Stewart's part and 23 then loud on my part after he'd punched me in the side 24 of the head. 25 Q: And so after -- can you recall any
911 other words that were spoken? 2 A: Not really. I just -- I just told 3 him, I said you... 4 Q: You told him what? 5 A: Can you swear in here? 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: I just said you -- I just called him 8 -- I said you're a 'F' ing 'A' hole and what did you do 9 that for and so on. After he hit the car with the rock, 10 I just thought that I can't stay here no more. The 11 other guy started ranting so I -- I took off. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Stewart was jumping around asking me 14 to get out and fight. 15 Q: And -- but you stopped your car and 16 then yelled something back at him? 17 A: Yes. I said you 'F'ing 'A' hole. 18 You know -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- what did you do that for and then 21 he threw the rock at the car. 22 Q: But you stopped and yelled at him 23 after he threw the rock at the car? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No?
921 A: After he punched me. 2 Q: Then he threw the rock at the car. 3 Did you stop again? 4 A: No, I took off. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I thought I'd better get out of 7 there, because the other guys were advancing. 8 Q: And did Stewart have anything in his 9 hand that you saw? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And did you see anything in the 12 hands of anybody else? 13 A: Just a stick or a club, one (1) of 14 the guys were holding. I can't remember which one it 15 was. 16 Q: But -- 17 A: One of the boys I didn't recognize. 18 Q: But of the four (4) or five (5) 19 people, you only saw one (1) person that had something 20 in their hand? 21 A: Yeah, from what I can remember. 22 Q: Excuse me for a minute. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
931 Q: And what did you do after you left? 2 Where did you go? You went south on Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yeah, I went up to the police 4 checkpoint to report that the car's been damaged. 5 Q: And is the checkpoint the same 6 checkpoint that you told us about before that you marked 7 number 2 on Exhibit 121? 8 A: Yeah, right at the entrance to that 9 campground. 10 Q: The -- the campground that's the 11 second one -- the northern campground, closest to 12 Matheson Drive? 13 A: Yeah, there is a name to that 14 campground. I just can't remember it. 15 Q: Yeah. The -- I'm -- the -- so you 16 stopped and how many police officers were there? 17 A: I think there were three (3) 18 cruisers and there were quite a bit of officers there. 19 There were some cruisers back inside that Park, too, 20 because at the entrance of that Park, there's a -- 21 there's two (2) stone pillars -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- to enter into the Park, like two 24 (2) brick pillars. And when you go in the Park, one (1) 25 road goes this way and there's a hedge -- hedges and
941 then another road goes straight back and there was some 2 cruisers back in the Park, but they just told me to back 3 in on that one (1) road, right, that runs parallel with 4 Army Camp Road, out of sight. 5 Q: So that the -- at least in 1995, as 6 you turned off the -- the Park was -- trailer park was 7 to the -- on the west side of Army Camp Road. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: If you drove in, there was a road 10 that led directly west into the park? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Or the trailer park? 13 A: Yeah. There's a road that goes 14 directly in. 15 Q: And is -- 16 A: -- and their park office is there. 17 Then there's another road that -- that would go in and 18 it takes a sharp curve and it runs parallel to Army Camp 19 Road, but it's in that park. It has hedges so you can't 20 really see the road. 21 Q: And the hedges are -- the hedges run 22 along Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And they're cedar hedges, I think? 25 A: If I can remember, cedar. I think
951 they were cedar. 2 Q: Okay. And so, just before we get 3 there, did -- do you recall saying something to Mr. -- 4 Mr. George when you yelled back at him, Worm, you're 5 going to get it? Do you recall saying those words? 6 A: No, I think I just called him a 'A' 7 -- 'A' hole and that kind of stuff and I said -- 8 Q: So that -- you were -- you go to the 9 -- the checkpoint and the police officers -- you stop -- 10 you speak to the two (2) police officers -- were there 11 two (2) police officers on the road? 12 A: Yeah. Yeah, they were manning the 13 checkpoint. 14 Q: And what, precisely, did you say to 15 them? 16 A: I said I'd filed a report because 17 the car was hit by -- one (1) of the guys threw a rock 18 at it and I filed a report for damage. 19 Q: And why did you want to file a 20 report for damage? 21 A: Well, I saw the rock hit and it was 22 -- well, I needed an insurance claim to fix it, so, 23 usually when you file an insurance they want to have a 24 damage report and all this other stuff with it from the 25 police.
961 Q: But at this point, when you stopped 2 at this checkpoint, had you stopped to check the damage? 3 You didn't know what the damage was, did you? 4 A: I could see it in my mirror, see it 5 was in -- in a -- I looked in the mirror. 6 Q: You could see where the rock hit in 7 your mirror? 8 A: Yeah. Yeah. 9 Q: And you saw that there was dent? 10 A: A good sized dent, yeah. 11 Q: And so the police officer -- did you 12 recognize any of the police officers on the checkpoint? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And when you said that you wanted to 15 file a report, what did they say to you? 16 A: They just told me to back the car 17 in; not to drive in, but I -- I backed the car in -- 18 into that spot. 19 Q: So -- to the spot on the inside of 20 the -- of the campground? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And the -- so how far would you have 23 been -- when you backed the car in and stopped behind 24 the hedges, how far would you have been -- were you from 25 Army Camp Road?
971 A: How far in? Maybe about -- about 2 ten (10) metres -- thirty (30) feet. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: Something like that. 5 Q: And so you backed in? The police 6 officers asked you to back in, you went in -- you backed 7 in. What happened then? 8 A: Then an officer got in the car. 9 Q: And this officer, was he one (1) of 10 the officers on the checkpoint? 11 A: I can't remember -- 12 Q: And -- 13 A: -- if he was an officer on the 14 checkpoint or not. 15 Q: -- and how were the officers -- how 16 was the -- how were the officers on the checkpoint 17 dressed? Do you recall? 18 A: I think they just had their regular 19 uniforms on then. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Yeah, they did. 22 Q: They had their regular uniforms? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And the police officer who got in the 25 car with you?
981 A: I think he had a regular uniform on. 2 He took my -- the damage statement. 3 Q: And did you recognize that police 4 officer? 5 A: No, I can't remember. 6 Q: And so, tell us what happened with 7 this police officer? 8 A: Well, he -- he just asked me for the 9 report and I told him that Stewart stopped down there and 10 he -- yelling at me and then when I pulled away, he threw 11 a rock at the car. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: And that was it with -- with that 14 police officer. 15 Q: And you signed -- the police officer 16 created a statement and I think it's at Tab 9. It's 17 Inquiry Document Number 2000549. 18 And does your signature appear in the 19 bottom of each of the three (3) pages of this statement? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the statement refers to having 22 been taken by a Constable S. Poole, P-O-O-L-E and it was 23 taken at 19:56, it would be four (4) minutes to eight 24 (8)? 25 Is that correct, sound right?
991 A: Must have, yeah. It was -- I think 2 it was starting to get twilight, kind of getting dark. 3 Q: And how long was your interview with 4 Mr. Poole. He indicates that it took until 20:27, that 5 would be about 8:30, twenty-seven (27) minutes after 6 8:00. 7 A: I thought it was about maybe fifteen 8 (15) twenty (20) minutes, something like that. 9 Q: And the statement that you -- your 10 statement that you gave to Constable Poole says nothing 11 about Mr. Stewart George hitting you; is that correct? 12 A: Yeah, that's correct. 13 Q: And why did you not tell the police 14 officer about Mr. Stewart George hitting you? 15 A: That goes back to when I first stated 16 that when I saw the other officers yelling at -- kind of 17 throwing comments at the dump truck. 18 And I thought -- I was going to when I 19 pulled up there I was really mad. But then I -- I was 20 thinking that's -- I think Worm if he is drunk he's 21 probably going to give them more trouble and I'm -- I'm 22 not going to report that he assaulted me. 23 That's all the cops would need to hear 24 that someone got assaulted along that road. So that's 25 why I didn't report that.
1001 Q: Okay. And you -- you made the report 2 for insurance purposes because you as I understand it you 3 thought that your sister for -- to get her car fixed 4 would need to have you report it to the police? 5 A: Yeah. You need a incident report, 6 damage report. 7 Q: And you knew that from your 8 experience before? 9 A: Yeah. Because I had my truck damaged 10 once. 11 Q: And they asked you if you'd reported 12 it to the police? 13 A: No. If -- if it's over a couple of 14 hundred bucks or over your -- what do you call that, the 15 money you've got to put up? 16 Q: The deductible? 17 A: Yeah. If it's over that you got to 18 have a report or something like that. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: That's why I did that. 21 Q: Okay. And did you speak to someone 22 besides Mr. -- Constable Poole? 23 A: After that another officer got in. 24 Q: And did Constable Poole leave after 25 about twenty (20) minutes after he'd taken a statement,
1011 you signed the statement, the report, and did then 2 Constable Poole leave? 3 A: Yeah. He left with the report. 4 Q: And then the other officer got in? 5 A: Yeah, another officer -- from what I 6 can remember I don't think he had a uniform on. He 7 might've had the pants on and I think he had a plain 8 shirt on. 9 Q: Plain shirt on? 10 A: Yeah. If I can remember correctly. 11 Q: And do you recall how long you were 12 with the second police officer? 13 A: Maybe about twenty (20), twenty-five 14 (25) minutes. 15 Q: And what was the conversation with 16 the second police officer? 17 A: He tried to ask -- first he asked me 18 who I was and why I was down there. So I -- I told him I 19 was a councillor and I was just down there to see what 20 was going on. 21 Then he -- he said they were having some 22 trouble with some of the people in there and if I could - 23 - he pulled out a book, I don't know where he got it, but 24 the pictures -- but they had a lot of people's pictures 25 in that book.
1021 Pictures of all the guys and he's asking 2 me who Isaac was, if I could point him out. I said I 3 didn't know those people. 4 Q: So he asked you -- 5 A: To point out people in the book. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: A book of -- they must have been 8 taken -- because some of them looked like helicopter 9 shots or something. Anyway I just pointed, I said that's 10 Stewart George, that's the guy who threw the rock. 11 Q: And he had -- 12 A: His nickname's Worm. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: And I said his nickname's Worm. I 15 said that's -- that's the only one I pointed out. 16 Q: So, he -- what he was trying to do is 17 to put names with other people? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the one (1) name that you 20 remember is Isaac? Was it -- did he refer to -- 21 A: Yeah, some -- some Isaac. I said I 22 didn't -- I don't know who that is. 23 Q: And did you know Robert Isaac at the 24 time? 25 A: No.
1031 Q: Or a Sam Isaac? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Or an Ed Isaac? 4 A: I knew Ed from when I used to go 5 fishing on Walpole. I didn't know him personally, but I 6 -- I think he had a billiards place on Walpole, right on 7 the corner when you're going in, but I don't know him. 8 They just said, That's Big Ed's place -- Ed Isaac, so -- 9 Q: So, you didn't know any of the Isaacs 10 then? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You didn't recognize the people -- 13 the person he pointed out to you? 14 A: No, I didn't. I told him, I don't 15 know who those guys are. 16 Q: And, so the only person you 17 identified was Stewart -- Mr. Stewart George. Did you 18 recognize any of the other pictures that they had? 19 A: Yeah. They had a lot of pictures of 20 most of the guys in there. 21 Q: And, you knew most of the people that 22 were there? 23 A: Yeah. They had some pictures of the 24 females in the book, too, I believe. 25 Q: And, the -- and they had pictures of
1041 other members of your First Nation as well, I take it? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And, then after he showed you this 4 book, what happened? 5 A: And he said -- he said, Who's the 6 spokes -- I think he asked me, Who's the leader of the 7 group? And I said, I don't know. And he said, Do you 8 know if they have any firearms in the Base or in the 9 Park? I said, I didn't see any when I was riding by 10 there. And I just said I saw a guy with a stick and then 11 he said, Are there any -- do you know if any of them own 12 firearms? 13 I said, Well -- I said when I was in there 14 I used to hunt -- when I lived there. I think those guys 15 probably hunt too. I said I used a -- a Ruger Mini 14 16 and I had a .12 gauge shotgun for hunting ducks. 17 And he said, Do those guys have any of 18 that kind of stuff? I said, They probably got hunting 19 rifles in there, too, you know, like mini 14s and whatnot 20 -- like shotguns for hunting around the duck pond, eh? 21 And then he asked me, Do they have any 22 anti-tank rockets and I looked at him, I said, What do 23 mean, anti-tank rockets? You mean Laws (phonetic), 24 disposable, RPG 7? What are you talking about? He said 25 -- We had reports that they have an anti-tank rocket in
1051 here. I said -- I said There's got to be a connection 2 somewhere. I said, I don't -- I don't think so. That 3 sounds kind of crazy. 4 I thought he was just fooling around with 5 me, eh? And then he said, Are you sure about the guns? 6 I said -- I said, I don't know. I said, I hunted in 7 there, so I imagine they hunted in there. There's 8 probably guns up in the Base somewhere, but as for that - 9 - And then it ended. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: And then that was it. 12 Q: And the -- did you tell the 13 constable, that the natives occupying the Army Camp, were 14 in possession of four (4) Russian SKS semi-automatic 15 rifles with thirty (30) round detachable clips? 16 A: No, I didn't because I -- I don't 17 think none of them guys owned that kind of stuff. 18 Q: And, the Russian SKS that you're 19 referring -- that's referred to is -- we spoke about a 20 Chinese SKS -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- is it the same -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- rifle -- one's Russian made and 25 the other's Chinese made?
1061 A: Most of the Russian-made models were 2 phased out a long time ago. They went to Egypt and most 3 of the Soviet satellite countries. The only ones that 4 make SKS's for sale in Canada was -- back then -- was 5 Norinko Corporation out of China. 6 So, there's -- there's no Russian SKS; 7 there's just Chinese SKS and most of those were made with 8 a fixed round ten (10) -- ten (10) round magazine. You 9 could only swing it down to clean it. You couldn't load 10 it like that, you'd have to have -- be closed and use a 11 stripper clip to load it. 12 Q: That's what you told me about before 13 and these -- the Chinese SKS rifles you talk about -- you 14 told me about -- were rifles that were legally for sale 15 in Canada? 16 A: Yeah, they were legally for sa -- 17 like, I had one (1). I have -- I also had a, like, 18 Chinese RPK -- all kinds. You could buy all kinds of 19 stuff back then. 20 Q: And, back then in 1995, you had a 21 Chinese SKS rifle? 22 A: I had a SKS, I had a Chinese RPK, I 23 had -- 24 Q: What's an RPK? 25 A: It's a -- let's see, it's a squad
1071 machine gun. It's a -- like a AK-47, but it's -- it's 2 long. I mean about from here to there and it has a bi- 3 pod with a seventy-five (75) round drum magazine on it. 4 Q: And they -- I take it you're a gun 5 collector? 6 A: I was, yes. 7 Q: And that's why you had that -- that 8 gun? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: But at any rate, the -- did you tell 11 the -- the constable, and we know that his name was Mark 12 Dew, did you -- do you recognize that name, Mark Dew? 13 A: No, I don't. All those guys looked 14 the same that night. I really can't remember their 15 faces. 16 Q: And, do you recall telling him that, 17 referring to the four (4) Russian SKS Semi-automatic 18 rifles, did you tell him that one (1) or two (2) of these 19 weapons have fixed ten (10) round magazines? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you tell him that, the Natives 22 occupying the Army Camp, had two (2) Ruger mini 14 rifles 23 with thirty (30) round clips and several hunting rifles 24 with scopes? 25 A: I told him I had a Ruger mini 14.
1081 Q: You told him you had a Ruger mini 14, 2 yes. 3 A: That's what I used to hunt, the 223 4 Ruger, that it was a mini 14 -- and my -- I don't think I 5 mentioned my 22 Magnum. 6 Q: So you told him you had one of 7 those -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you tell him that people in the 10 Army Camp had those? 11 A: I told him people in the Army Camp 12 probably had similar -- similar guns, because they hunt 13 deer in there in the fall and they duck hunt. 14 Q: Similar to the guns you have. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: But this was at the Army Camp? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Did you tell Constable Dew that gas 19 bombs were being built inside the Camp? 20 A: No, I read that and I don't know 21 where that come from, because I wasn't even allowed in 22 the Camp. How would I know what was going on in there? 23 Q: And did you tell Constable Dew that 24 you believed that some buildings on the Base would be 25 burned that night?
1091 A: No, I didn't. And that goes back to 2 why would you burn down, you know, places where you're 3 living. Don't make sense. 4 Q: And the -- you had not been in, from 5 what you told me before, the Army Camp or the Park -- you 6 had not been in the Army Camp since befo -- just after 7 the occupation when you were asked to leave? 8 A: Yeah, I wouldn't go there. 9 Q: Of the barracks area? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And, had you been in the Provincial 12 Park at all on September 4th, September 5th or September 13 6th, 2005? 14 A: No, I never went near the place. I 15 never went inside of it. 16 Q: And, can you recall any other part of 17 the conversation -- any other conversation you had with 18 the second police officer? 19 A: No he -- they wanted to know who the 20 leader was down there, but I said I -- I had no idea who 21 the leader was. Because we didn't either, at Kettle 22 Point. I think that's one (1) thing they really wanted 23 to find out, who the spokesperson or leader was down 24 there. 25 Q: Okay. So, after you -- when you were
1101 talking to the second police officer, do you recall if he 2 was making notes or was he just sitting in the car 3 talking to you? 4 A: Most of the time he was just talking 5 to me. The one (1) book I remember is the book with 6 pictures in it. 7 Q: Do you re -- do you remember him -- 8 do you recall whether or not he had a notebook? You 9 know, the notebooks that most police officers carry? 10 A: I don't know, but once in a while 11 he'd talk on his radio. 12 Q: He'd talk on his radio? But -- 13 A: He'd say, kind of, excuse me and 14 speak on his radio and then start talking to me again. 15 Things like that. 16 Q: And do you recall the radio that he 17 had, I take it, was a portable radio? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And do you recall what -- anything 20 that he said on the radio? He was -- was he talking to - 21 - initiating the call or responding to some call from 22 someone else? 23 A: I'm not sure. He -- talking about, I 24 think, coded words. 25 Q: Okay.
1111 A: Names for, probably, checkpoints or 2 something, you know. 3 Q: Okay. And so, do you recall whether 4 or not again he had a notebook that he was using? 5 A: I can't remember. I don't think he 6 was writing in a notebook because he was mostly faced 7 toward me in the car. We were facing toward each other, 8 talking like that and he -- he had his -- the book with 9 pictures in it. 10 Q: And the Grand Am that your sister had 11 at the time, did it have a bench seat or bucket seats in 12 the front. 13 A: Had bucket seats. In the front 14 there's just two (2). 15 Q: Just two (2) seats? 16 A: Yeah, because the console was in the 17 middle and the shifter's in the middle. 18 Q: So that you're in the driver's seat, 19 he was in the passenger seat and between you was the -- 20 the console was in the middle with the transmission 21 shifter? 22 A: I think so. 23 Q: Okay. So did you -- when you were 24 telling the police officer about -- in response to his 25 questions about -- that you had hunted in the Park and
1121 that -- 2 A: In the Base. 3 Q: -- I mean not in -- excuse me, that 4 you had hunted in the Base and that others, when you were 5 there, had hunted, did you tell the police officer that 6 you -- whether or not you had observed any guns in the 7 Army Camp on the 4th, 5th, or 6th. 8 A: I wasn't -- I wasn't allowed in the 9 Army Camp after that. I didn't go in there. 10 Q: And did you ever, at any time 11 yourself, personally, hunt in the Provincial Park? 12 A: It's not very big. You really can't 13 -- it's not big. The deer wouldn't live there plus 14 there's a fence around it. 15 Q: So the answer is no? 16 A: We used to -- we used to spearfish in 17 there, trout in the spring but that was way before all 18 this happened when we would just knelt down at the front 19 of the creek. 20 Q: And after the conversation with the 21 second police officer, what did you do? 22 A: I left. I left and I went up Army 23 Camp Road toward Highway 21. 24 Q: And did you observe any other police 25 officers on Army Camp Road as you left the park -- the
1131 trailer park? 2 A: Yeah. I was stopped at another 3 checkpoint. 4 Q: And where was the other checkpoint, 5 Mr. George? 6 A: I think it was around the built-up 7 area on Highway -- on Army Camp Road. 8 Q: And if you could refer to Exhibit P- 9 121 which is the map in front of you of the military 10 reserve and the map that's up on the screen, can you just 11 point for us on the screen, where the checkpoint was near 12 the built-up area? 13 A: I think it was right around that area 14 there. 15 Q: And so that would be -- would it be 16 fair to say it was between the main gate of the -- into 17 the Army Camp and Highway 21, so it would be south of the 18 main gate? 19 A: Around that area. 20 Q: And could you mark on the copy of 21 Exhibit P-21 which is in front of you, the -- which is 22 the map of -- no it's the other one, that one there -- 23 the location of the second checkpoint, the one near 24 Highway 21. 25 And mark the -- and put beside it -- or
1141 indicate with the number 3 where that checkpoint was? 2 A: (INDICATING) 3 Q: And so how many police officers were 4 manning this checkpoint? 5 A: I think there was maybe about three 6 (3), two (2) cruisers. 7 Q: And do you recall how the police 8 officers at this checkpoint were dressed? 9 A: I think they were plain clothes. No, 10 not plain clothes but suited up with their regular 11 uniforms. 12 Q: Okay. And were they carrying any 13 weapons that you could observe? 14 A: Just their sidearms. 15 Q: And what -- what transpired at this 16 checkpoint? 17 A: He -- the police officer come up and 18 said, Oh, it's you and they were going to wave me through 19 and so they -- they did. 20 Q: And he said, Oh, it's you? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Had you seen this police officer 23 before? 24 A: No, he probably -- these guys 25 probably radioed ahead and said I was coming, because I
1151 was the only along there. 2 Q: At that -- at this point, you were 3 the only car? 4 A: Yeah, from what I can remember. I 5 don't remember passing any other cars on Army Camp Road. 6 Q: And after you left the checkpoint, 7 you turned west on Highway 21 and went back to Kettle 8 Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did you observe any other police 11 officers or police vehicles on Highway 21. I mean on 12 Highway 21 between Army Camp Road and the Kettle Point 13 turnoff? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: They were heading toward the Army 17 Camp. 18 Q: You -- and when you say the were 19 heading toward the Army Camp, I take it these were 20 cruisers? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And how many cruisers did you 23 observe? 24 A: I think I passed two (2) separate 25 groups of two (2) cars, so that'd be four (4).
1161 Q: And could you see how many officers 2 were inside? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And after you got back to Kettle 5 Point, what did you do? 6 A: I went and saw Bernard again. 7 Q: And that's your cousin -- 8 A: Remember, I told you -- 9 Q: -- Cecil Bernard George? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: I went and saw him and I said, The 13 cops are really building up down there. I didn't tell 14 him that Worm punched me or anything, but I just told 15 him, I think something is going to happen. All those 16 cops were real itchy, they really were trying to hide 17 stuff from me when I was down there. 18 Q: What do you mean they were "trying to 19 hide stuff"? 20 A: Well, they were using -- when they 21 talk on the radio, they'd turn away so I couldn't really 22 hear. They talk low. I think they had the roadblocks 23 code named or certain areas, and when they talk on the 24 radio they turned away so I couldn't really hear. 25 Q: Okay. Yes?
1171 A: That was going on for -- since I was 2 -- that whole day. Then I told Bernard, I said, I'd 3 better go -- I'd better go see Tom, because maybe get Tom 4 to make some phone calls or maybe he should go down there 5 and see it for himself. 6 So I was going to go pick up Tom and, you 7 know, come back and pick up Bernard. 8 Q: Yes? So did you -- 9 A: I found Tom but by the time I left 10 for Bernard's place he said he already taken off. 11 Q: So you went and saw Chief Bressette 12 and -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- picked Mr. -- did you pick up 15 Chief Bressette? Did he come with you? 16 A: Yeah, yeah. I picked him up. 17 Q: And so you and Chief Bressette drove 18 back to -- to Cecil Bernard George's house? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And the plan was the three (3) of you 21 would go back to the Army Camp and Provincial Park area? 22 A: Yeah. I wanted to show them what was 23 -- what was going on down there. Take -- maybe go for a 24 ride past -- not -- I wasn't going to go down the -- down 25 the curve again, but just go up 21 and to Army Camp Road
1181 and down and up again. Maybe turn around at Silver 2 Birches. 3 Q: Okay, so you weren't going to go down 4 to -- by the sandy parking lot? 5 A: No. No, no. 6 Q: Okay. And, Commissioner, I've 7 neglected to mark the copy of P-23. It should be marked 8 as Exhibit 122? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-122 your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-122: Copy of Exhibit P-23. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: So you -- were you still driving your 16 sister's car? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: So you went to Cecil Bernard George's 19 house. He was not there. What did you do then? 20 A: We -- I proceeded to go to -- down to 21 the area. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: Tom wanted to get real close to it, 24 so I -- we made our way to East Parkway again. 25 Q: So you went -- how did you leave?
1191 Did you go down -- how did you get to -- 2 A: I believe I went to Highway 21, and 3 then up. I think we went to Ravenswood Road and then 4 down to East Parkway. 5 Q: And at the intersection of Raven -- 6 at Ravenswood, where the road runs north from Ravenswood 7 and it's called a variety of names, as I understand it. 8 Ravenswood Road, Ipperwash Road -- 9 A: Yeah, Centre road. 10 Q: Centre Ipperwash Road. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: But you went north? Did you observe 13 any police officers at the intersection of Highway 21 and 14 the road north from Ravenswood? 15 A: I really can't remember, because I 16 mostly -- it was getting dark then. It was kind of real 17 twilight. I was concentrating on getting down to the -- 18 the area here where Tom wanted to go. 19 Q: So Chief Bressette wanted to go down 20 the observe what was happening at the Provincial Park and 21 the Army Camp at that area? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And so you went on north on Highway - 24 - on the Ravenswood Road, or Ipperwash Road, or Centre 25 Ipperwash Road, up to East Parkway?
1201 A: Yes. 2 Q: And at the corner -- at the 3 intersection of East Parkway and the road that leads 4 north from Ravenswood, is that where an establishment 5 called "Walligator's" (phonetic) was? 6 A: Yeah. Yeah, right there. 7 Q: It was on the west side of the road? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, so, what did you do? You got to 10 the intersection of East Parkway and -- 11 A: Then we went down East Parkway. 12 Q: You went east on East Parkway? 13 A: Yeah, and we made it as far as the 14 MNR parking lot. Then there was a roadblock there -- two 15 (2) cruisers, I believe. 16 Q: And what -- how were the two (2) 17 cruisers stationed? 18 A: I believe they were across the road. 19 Q: They were right across the road. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And what happened? 22 A: We were going to get to ask if we 23 could get by there and one (1) of the officers was on 24 this side of the cruisers and the other guy was on the 25 other side and --
1211 Q: And when -- when you say, on this 2 side, there was -- there was an officer -- 3 A: Cruiser -- 4 Q: -- on the same side of the cruiser as 5 you would -- you were, so that would be the west side of 6 the two (2) cruisers? 7 A: Yeah. The cruisers were like this -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: One (1) officer on this side; the 10 other officer was on this side of the other cruiser. 11 Q: So that the cruisers were nose-to- 12 nose, blocking the road and there was one (1) officer on 13 one (1) side of your car and the other officer on the 14 other side of the car? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: I have to word -- describe it in 17 words, Mr. George. 18 A: They were staggered; one (1) here, 19 one (1) there. 20 Q: Okay. Yes? 21 A: Either side of the car and then we 22 were just going to get out of the car and that's when the 23 officers started listening to the radio and kind of heard 24 -- what I heard were gunshots coming from the radios and 25 stuff.
1221 And the the one (1) officer jumped back 2 behind his car from our side and said, You guys got to 3 get out of here. He said, Nobody getting through; you 4 got to get out of here. So we -- we backed up and went 5 the other way; turned around. 6 Q: And -- and how much did you -- when 7 you say that -- how long were you with these two (2) 8 police officers? 9 A: Not very long, maybe about two (2) -- 10 three (3) minutes. 11 Q: And how do you know that there were - 12 - the sounds that you heard were gunshots? 13 A: That's what it sounded like over the 14 radio. It wasn't static. I'm pretty sure they were 15 gunshots. 16 Q: Okay. So, you turned around. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And what did you then do? 19 A: We went back down to Ravenswood Road 20 where Walligators is, and I said, maybe we can get there 21 along the beach. So we drove down and we went down the - 22 - the Ravenswood Road onto the beach, but they had poles 23 dug into the ground separating it and it went out to the 24 water and the Grand Am couldn't -- couldn't go that deep, 25 so we didn't go out there and --
1231 Q: So, you went down to the intersection 2 of East Parkway and Ravenswood Road and went north past 3 the intersection of Ravenswood and West Parkway towards 4 the lake to the beach? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you got to the beach, you 7 were -- there were poles separating the posts -- were 8 they posts or poles? 9 A: They were posts. 10 Q: And they were -- made it -- 11 separating the beach from the -- the access road? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And were they on both sides of the -- 14 A: I think they were only on the one (1) 15 side facing toward the Ipperwash Park. 16 Q: And the -- so you couldn't get 17 through, so what did you do? 18 A: We sat there for a minute and this 19 happened about the same time Roseanne -- Bernard's wife - 20 - come down the beach. She was driving Bernard's truck. 21 She come off Ravenswood Road, come down below the hill 22 there, and Deanna Bressette, my other cousin, was in 23 there; her Dad is Bud Cloud. 24 She was with Roseanne and almost at the 25 same time, Jeremiah come running up the road; coming
1241 around -- down the beach toward us from the Park. 2 Q: So that Deanna Bressette and -- 3 A: Roseanne. 4 Q: Roseanne Bressette came down to the 5 beach in a truck or a vehicle? 6 A: Yeah, Bernard's blue Chevy Wrangler. 7 Q: And then you saw Jeremiah George 8 coming towards you along the beach? 9 A: Yeah. He was kind of running, 10 jogging, and his shirt was open. 11 Q: And the -- did you speak to Roseanne 12 and Deanna Bressette? 13 A: No, not until -- I think we spoke to 14 Jeremiah first. I said, Where's Bernard? He was, I 15 don't know, but -- I lost him in a crowd, but those cops 16 start shooting at everybody and all the young guys are 17 running around out front. 18 I said who the -- I said, Who the hell's 19 in charge down there? He went, we don't know, we don't - 20 - he said we don't know. I said, Where's Bernard and -- 21 as I was asking him that, Roseanne and Deanna came up and 22 she was asking where Bernard was and, you know, we didn't 23 know and I was -- I was pretty mad that nobody took 24 control down there. 25 Q: And do you --
1251 A: I don't really know what I said to 2 Gig (phonetic) and them but I was really -- I was quite 3 mad that the young guys were, like, what Jeremiah told 4 me, like, they were getting shot at and they were just 5 running around. 6 I -- nobody was leading and telling them 7 what to do. And then Roseanne and Deanna jumped into 8 their -- her parents' truck and took off up Ravenswood 9 Road again with Jeremiah. Jeremiah jumped in the back. 10 Q: And do you recall anything that Chief 11 Bressette said? 12 A: Don't think I can really remember. 13 He said -- he said let's go -- let's go up see if we can 14 see what's going on up there. I said -- I said we -- we 15 can't get over there where the firing's going on. We'll 16 try and get to the Base. 17 So we went up Ravenswood Road. 18 Q: But when the -- what I'm asking you 19 about is the conversation between Deanna Bressette and 20 Roseanne Bressette. Did they come right up to where you 21 were -- were you out of the car, speaking to Jeremiah at 22 this point? 23 A: Yeah. Yeah, I really can't remember 24 what was being said between Roseanne and Deanna, just 25 that I know Roseanne was asking about Bernard, that's the
1261 only thing I can really remember. 2 Q: And do you remember anything that 3 Chief Bressette said? 4 A: No, I can't. 5 Q: Do you remember him saying words to 6 the effect that it was Mike Harris' fault? Do you recall 7 that? 8 A: No, but I heard that before. 9 Actually, we were all saying that kind of. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: We were actually all kind of saying 12 that. 13 Q: And why were you saying that? 14 A: Because we didn't think that the 15 police would have built up that way unless the Queen's 16 Park gave the permission. 17 Q: And -- but you can't recall the -- 18 Chief Bressette saying anything like that in this 19 conversation? 20 A: No, I can't remember that, because I 21 was mostly talking to Jeremiah. 22 Q: So Roseanne George and Deanna 23 Bressette and Jeremiah George left, and what did you and 24 Chief Bressette do? 25 A: We went up Ravenswood Road to
1271 Ravenswood and 21 and I told him, I said, I think I -- I 2 know a way to get to the Base, we might be able to get 3 there, because there's so much -- you could see a lot of 4 cops going straight to the Army Camp on 21. 5 So we went across, I don't know what that 6 highways number is -- 7 Q: Okay, just if I could stop you for a 8 moment. When you were on the beach, do you recall 9 hearing any rifle -- any shots? 10 A: No. I think we were probably too far 11 away and the dunes were higher up than where the action 12 was taking place. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So the sound would have been muffled. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I show you Exhibit P-20. 19 Unfortunately, it doesn't have the road names on it, but 20 perhaps using that -- excuse me. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: We come up Ravenswood Road, right 25 here.
1281 Q: And you're pointing to the road, 2 Ravenswood Road from the beach down to Ravenswood? 3 A: Yeah. And we stopped at the junction 4 at Ravenswood -- 5 Q: And -- 6 A: -- near the village. 7 Q: At that junction, at this point Mr. 8 George, did you observe any police officers there or a 9 checkpoint there? 10 A: No, not really. Not -- just maybe 11 one (1) cruiser went by. There was hardly any activity 12 up there. 13 Q: And the cruiser that went by was 14 heading east towards the Army Camp? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: Yeah. So we kept going on this road 18 -- there's no name to it but we come on this road and 19 then Army Camp Road starts over here. It actually goes 20 way down here, so got on Army Camp Road. 21 Q: So you went -- 22 A: It's a dirt road. 23 Q: -- you went along the road that led 24 from Ravenswood to the first road, that at least marked 25 on Exhibit P-20, that's a red line, that runs east
1291 towards Thetford, eventually, and then you went as far as 2 Army Ca -- the Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then turned north on Army Camp 5 Road? 6 A: Yeah. We stopped maybe about forty 7 (40) to fifty (50) metres away from the stop sign. So -- 8 Q: And, the stop sign at Highway 21? 9 A: Yeah. So we were on this side of 21. 10 Q: And on this side, you mean the south 11 side of 21? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And, Tom says he can remember but I 15 can't, I can't remember but he said a car passed us on 16 that road that come out of the Base. I can't really 17 recall that. But we're sitting there and we're watching 18 Army Camp and there was not too much activity up here. 19 Q: And up here you mean the 20 intersection -- 21 A: Around the Base. 22 Q: -- of Army Camp and Highway 21? 23 A: Yeah. But -- but I could've swore I 24 saw people at the back of the MP shack, crouched down. 25 It looked they were holding guns and they looked like
1301 they were police. 2 Q: And the MP shack is the building 3 that's in the built-up area that is marked number 3, the 4 guardhouse. Is that what you're referring to? 5 A: Yeah. It's -- 6 Q: It's now a blue building? 7 A: It's right in the corner. I think 8 it's blue, yeah. 9 Q: If we could -- if you could take just 10 this moment and at look at Exhibit P-41 and if you could 11 point out the building -- 12 A: Yeah. That one right there. 13 Q: And that's identified, Commissioner, 14 on P-41 as the guardhouse. And you thought you saw 15 police officers or people with rifles that you had 16 thought were police officers where, Mr. George? 17 A: I thought I saw them right on the 18 end, silhouetted in the lake. It looked like they had 19 floppy hats on from what I could tell. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: I really couldn't tell if those were 22 police, but all the guys were down the Park. So the only 23 other people I could figure who may be were doing a 24 reconnoitre in the Base, maybe, was the cops. That's 25 what I told Tom anyway.
1311 Q: So, what did you do -- so you were 2 still on the south side of Highway 21, what did you do 3 next? 4 A: I said, let's go for a ride down this 5 -- down 21, north toward Port Franks. So we went for a 6 ride, real slow and by Cliff's trailer I saw a dump truck 7 and a bunch of cars around Cliff's trailer. And we went 8 -- kept going and there was another dirt road here, I 9 don't know the name of it. 10 We turned around there and come back. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: We -- we drove right by everything 13 and went back to the Army Camp Road, the dirt road. 14 Q: And I've got on the map of the screen 15 beside you, on the other side, Mr. George, a copy of P- 16 121 and so you drove east along Highway 21, you passed 17 the area where Mr. Clifford George had his -- his cabin? 18 A: Yeah, he still lived out there at the 19 time. 20 Q: And, can you show us on this copy of 21 the exhibit where that was? 22 A: I'm not sure -- it's in that -- that 23 block of woods there. 24 Q: Okay. And could you mark -- 25 A: I think it was right here somewhere.
1321 Q: -- the general area on your copy of 2 P-121 and I think we're up to number 4? 3 THE REGISTRAR: Number 4. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And if you'd look at the copy of P- 7 121 that's in front of you, we see that the -- there's an 8 extension of Highway -- the Army Camp Road that runs 9 south of Highway 21, is the location where you and Mr. 10 Chief -- and Chief Bressette were when you stopped the 11 car -- is the loc -- can you mark -- is the location 12 visible on this copy of the map? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Could you mark where you stopped and 15 put a number 5 beside it? 16 A: Where we turned around? 17 Q: No, no. Where you -- actually, 18 before we go there, where -- I'm back now at the 19 intersection of Army Camp Road and Highway 21 -- 20 A: Where we stopped at first. 21 Q: -- and the extension of Army Camp 22 Road south and where you first stopped? 23 A: At number 5? 24 Q: Number 5? So you then drove east -- 25 you -- slowly, you went past where Clifford George had
1331 his place and you saw cars and a dump truck outside 2 there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, you then proceeded east. Did 5 you go all the way to Outer Drive? 6 A: No, I think we turned around at the 7 dirt road. 8 Q: And the dirt road you're identifying 9 is marked six one five (615) -- there's a number six one 10 five (615), which is an elevation number, but it's -- is 11 that -- is there a road there? 12 A: Yeah, there's a road there. 13 Q: And you turned around there? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Perhaps you could mark that spot and 16 put a number 6 beside it? And then what did you do, Mr. 17 George? 18 A: Then we went back to -- going toward 19 Army Camp Road. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: I thought -- I told them, We got to 22 get you back to Kettle Point because you're going to have 23 to start calling around if what's happening is happening. 24 I said, You're going to have to start calling around 25 people right now. He was kind of talking about going
1341 into the Base. I said, I don't think that's a good idea, 2 I'll meet you at Kettle Point. 3 Q: Tom Bressette was talking about that 4 he wanted to go into the Army Camp? 5 A: Yeah. I -- I didn't think -- I told 6 him, I don't think that's a good idea, I got to get you 7 back to Kettle Point because we're going to need you 8 where we have all our communications and I was kind of 9 scared that the whole area was going to get cordoned 10 off -- 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: -- by the police. And if that 13 happened, they probably would have cut the telephone 14 lines and whatnot that was in there and he wouldn't be 15 able to communicate. We needed a chief at home and I 16 really didn't -- I really didn't have the trust of any of 17 our senior councils at Kettle Point at that time could 18 handle this -- was happening, so we went back to the 19 junction of Army Camp Road and 21. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And then we went back toward the 22 Thetford Highway and just as we were coming to the -- the 23 junction, right about -- right there on the Thetford 24 Highway, I noticed a stripe across the road -- a -- a 25 glowing stripe, and I said, There's police; there's
1351 police up here. 2 He said, Just keep going, just slow down 3 and when we got there we kind of saw red -- red flashes 4 in our eyes and I looked and there was a kind of red dot 5 on us. 6 So I said, Stop, and we rolled down the 7 window and guy goes, Let's see your -- your 'F' ing 8 hands. So, I went like this and being stupid I shot him 9 the bird too you know, and Tom punched me in the arm and 10 said, Behave, so I held my hands up, he held his hands up 11 and they come up with their -- looked like MP-5s 12 Hecklerincoch (phonetic) levelled at us. 13 I think they were suppressed and then one 14 (1) of them must have noticed Tom because he goes, Oh, 15 Chief Tom you got to get the hell out of here. Beat it, 16 things like that and he goes, What are you doing? What's 17 going on down there? He says, No, just get the hell out 18 of here, so -- so I took Tom back and dropped him off at 19 his house. 20 Q: Okay, before we go beyond there, on 21 Exhibit P-20, could you mark where the Thetford Highway 22 intersects with Highway -- with Army Camp Road, with the 23 pen and where you were stopped by these police officers? 24 A: Can I draw on your map? 25 Q: Yes. If you could do it with a black
1361 mark it might be better than a red one. 2 A: I'll just circle it. 3 Q: Just circle it. 4 A: (INDICATING) 5 Q: And -- just put a number 1 beside it, 6 please, Mr. George. 7 So, as you approached this intersection, 8 you saw a reflecting -- something -- a reflecting line. 9 Was it on the road? 10 A: Yeah, it was right across the road. 11 Q: And then you -- the next thing you 12 observed were red dots on you? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And, did you know what they 15 signified? 16 A: Yeah. Probably -- but I didn't think 17 the police would be standing in the ditch with pointers. 18 Q: And what did they mean to you, the 19 red dots? 20 A: I don't know. Just guns. 21 Q: That's what I'm getting at. The red 22 dot meant that somebody was pointing at you with a laser 23 -- laser -- something that had a laser sight on it? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the red dot is the laser?
1371 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And, so, you saw -- how many of these 3 red dots did you see on yourself and Chief Bressette? 4 A: Probably a couple on each of us. 5 Q: And then when you stopped, how many 6 police officers did you see? 7 A: I saw two (2) get up. They had the - 8 - the jump suits -- jump suits on and dark grey, I 9 believe. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Boonie (phonetic) hats. 12 Q: And which kind of hats? 13 A: Boonie hats. They're just a floppy 14 hat. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Like tactical. And like there's some 17 more guys in the ditch on either side. I really couldn't 18 get a count. I just noticed the two (2) and the one (1) 19 that spoke to Tom, he said, get the hell out of here. 20 Q: And where did the two (2) -- the 21 police officers you saw, where did they come from? 22 A: They come from the ditch. 23 Q: So you went, then how did you get 24 back to Kettle Point? Did you continue along the 25 Thetford Highway?
1381 A: Yeah, Thetford Highway to -- back to 2 21. 3 Q: And did you come out at 21 at 4 Ravenswood this time? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And did you observe police officers 7 at Ravenswood? 8 A: I really can't remember. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: If there was a police officer at 11 Ravenswood or not. 12 Q: And then, when you got back to Kettle 13 Point, where did you drop off Chief Bressette? 14 A: I dropped him off at his house. 15 Q: Okay. And what did -- did you stop 16 at Chief Bressette's house? Did you talk, did you -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- find anything out? 19 A: Yeah, I went in for a little while 20 and that's when I heard that one (1) of the people were 21 shot. One (1) or two (2) of the people must -- were hit 22 and they said one (1) of them -- they heard one (1) was 23 Dudley and one (1) was somebody else. 24 Q: And did you hear anything else later 25 that evening about what had happened down at the Park in
1391 terms of any other incidents at the Park? 2 A: No, just the shootings. We were all 3 trying to find out what happened to Bernard, mostly. 4 Q: And the -- what did you do after you 5 left Chief Bressette's house? 6 A: I went to drop my sister's car off 7 and I got my dad's truck then I went over to my uncle 8 Pete's house, Pete Cloud. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: To pick up my cousin Dwayne. 11 Q: Yes. And did you go into your uncle 12 Pete's house? 13 A: Yeah, and they were listening to the 14 police scanner. 15 Q: And your -- your uncle Pete Cloud had 16 a scanner and he was listening to it? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And how long were you at your uncle 19 Pete's -- 20 A: For just about ten (10) minutes and-- 21 Q: And did you listen to the scanner 22 while you were there? 23 A: Yeah, I did but I can't remember what 24 the heck was going on. I just waited for Dwayne to get 25 dressed.
1401 Q: And did you learn, sometime that 2 evening, that apparently an older woman's vehicle was 3 tacked -- attacked with bats in the area of the Park? 4 A: I think that was what was coming over 5 the scanner, because it -- it -- that got up to us. I 6 don't know who told me, but it got up to us and we were 7 building a roadblock up on -- at the Kettle Point curve 8 on 21. 9 I didn't hear that until about maybe an 10 hour and a half later. 11 Q: Okay. And you think that was -- came 12 across the scanner? 13 A: Yeah, that's pro -- I can imagine 14 that that's probably where it come from because -- but 15 it did reach us at some other person got attacked in a 16 car with bats, some lady. 17 Q: And so you and your cousin Dwayne and 18 your uncle Pete? 19 A: No, just -- just Dwayne. Pete stayed 20 at the house for a bit. He said he wanted to listen to 21 his scanner. 22 Q: You -- and so you built the road 23 block at the intersection -- at the curve where the -- 24 it's the road to Kettle Point, the mall, and Kettle Point 25 leads from Highway 21?
1411 A: Well, we rode around the reserve at 2 first, getting all our other cousins and telling them 3 what was going on down there. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And then we all met up at -- where 6 the Kettle Point Mall is. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: Right just off 21. And that's when 9 we'd -- we said let's make a roadblock out -- out down 10 the highway so it'd stop the cops from easy access on the 11 highway. So then we start -- everybody just started 12 going home and getting their stuff and making a roadblock 13 and getting -- getting tires and everything. 14 Q: You participated in building a 15 roadblock? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And when did you hear that Mr. Dudley 18 George had been shot and had died? 19 A: Maybe about two (2) hours, something 20 like that, hour and a half. 21 Q: So, when you started building the 22 roadblock, can you tell us what time of night it was. 23 Was it after midnight, later? 24 A: It was probably about 10:00, maybe 25 eleven o'clock, 11:30 somewhere around there.
1421 Q: The incident took place at around 2 11:00, 11:30, in that -- 3 A: It must have been about 12:00, 12:30 4 then when everybody started building the roadblock 5 because it was not too long after I got back to Kettle 6 Point. 7 Q: And did you learn anything about the 8 location of Cecil Bernard George when you were up 9 building -- at -- at or about this time? 10 A: We were starting to build a roadblock 11 and my dad come flying into my mom's car. Me and Dwayne 12 and everybody was standing there. He said Bernard got -- 13 he said he heard Bernard got shot in the head and killed. 14 And -- 15 Q: And that's -- 16 A: -- and that did it. Everybody was 17 just -- like if that was true, you'd have a lot -- lot 18 more problem than rock throwing Natives to worry about if 19 that really happened, with us anyway. 20 Q: But the -- 21 A: That didn't happen. 22 Q: So the report came through from your 23 father that Cecil Bernard George had been shot and had 24 died. When did you learn that that was a false report? 25 A: Probably about maybe a half hour
1431 later. 2 Q: And how did you learn it was a false 3 report? 4 A: Word come through, I don't know where 5 it come from but it said that he was at the Strathroy 6 Hospital. 7 Q: Now -- so what -- after you built the 8 bonfire, what did you do during the morning of September 9 7th? Did you man the -- how -- 10 A: No, I was -- 11 Q: -- did you man the bonfire? 12 A: Tom asked me to -- to watch the -- 13 the barricades and to kind of watch the young guys. Make 14 sure -- every -- everything was like in -- kind of under 15 control -- kind of under control, yeah. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: Make sure none of -- the roadblocks 18 were manned. We also had somebody there and then we 19 constructed a second roadblock about a day and a half 20 later after that. 21 Q: And where was the second roadblock? 22 A: It was Lakeshore -- Lakeshore just at 23 the -- where the Eagles Nest access is -- it's called 24 Eagles Nest. It's like a bunch of apartments on the 25 reserve.
1441 Q: So that's east -- that would be west 2 of the Kettle Point Mall? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And the Kettle Point Mall is located 5 on the north side of the Lakeshore Road? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And the road that runs north to the 8 lake -- Lake Huron from Highway 21, past the intersection 9 with Lakeshore Road up to Lake Huron, what's it -- what 10 is it called -- that road? 11 A: That's West Ipperwash. 12 Q: That's West Ipperwash Road? 13 A: Is that the one that runs to the 14 beach you're asking about? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yeah. That's West Ipperwash. 17 Q: The morning of September 7th, did you 18 participate in the march to the Army Camp? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And, can you tell us what happened 21 and how that came about, the march to the Army Camp? 22 A: We heard that two (2) teams were 23 surrounding it and that there was still family members in 24 there. A lot of the old people come up to the council, 25 the Band -- the Band office and then over at the Kettle
1451 Point Mall where everybody was and they said some of our 2 family members are still trapped in there. 3 They wanted to get them out. So we all 4 started putting together a convoy of trucks and a lot of 5 people come up with the flags and stuff and we just 6 started pitting down there to go and evacuate these 7 people. Get them out of the combat zone there. 8 Q: And so that, you were concerned about 9 the people who were in the Army Camp? 10 A: Yeah. The -- they said there was 11 still kids and mothers in there who wanted to get out of 12 there. 13 Q: Did you have any conversations during 14 the evening that you recall with Bonnie Bressette? 15 A: I don't know -- 16 Q: That evening of September -- the 17 morning of September 7th, after the incident? 18 A: I can't really remember seeing 19 Bonnie. I was mostly involved in the security. 20 Q: And, so you -- people drove and also 21 marched down Highway 21 towards the Army Camp? 22 A: Yeah, I was in my dad's truck with 23 Dwayne Bressette. 24 Q: And what did you do after you got to 25 the Army Camp?
1461 A: Just went through the gates; stayed 2 there for a while and we went back again. 3 Q: To the -- 4 A: The only -- the only police we saw 5 was at Raven's Wood -- a line of TRU team members telling 6 us to stop and the front just kept going through and they 7 separated. 8 Q: And you say that you saw some TRU 9 team members. Why do you say that you saw some TRU team 10 members? 11 A: I'm sure they were either TRU team or 12 ERT because they had the -- the one (1) piece jumpsuits 13 on again -- combat jumpsuits with boonie hats and MP5s, 14 Hecklerencoch (phonetic) -- the other kind -- .223s too. 15 I don't know the number of them. 16 Q: And -- but they were -- they were 17 dressed -- You take it they were either -- do you know 18 what a TRU team is? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what is -- what does it mean -- 21 what did it mean to you back in '95? 22 A: I didn't know what it meant back in 23 '95. All I know, that when there's trouble there's 24 certain officers trained to be TRU team from each 25 department and if there's a situation, they're all called
1471 together because when I was with the -- the Board member 2 Anishnaabek Police Services, I was trying to get some of 3 our natives trained as TRU team members in case there was 4 something on one (1) of the reserves, but a TRU team to 5 me is, it -- it's a team that's put together and brought 6 in when either weapons or a -- a large crowd is to be put 7 down or whatever you call it -- brought back to order. 8 Q: So, the officers -- when you were 9 going down Highway 21 and you got to Ravenswood, you 10 didn't know at the -- back in 1995 who these officers 11 were, but you assumed they were a specialized group? 12 A: Yeah, we were just calling them SWAT 13 Q: SWAT? 14 A: We didn't know TRU team back then, we 15 just knew that there's more SWAT guys up front. 16 Q: And they were dressed in -- can you 17 tell me again, how they were dressed? 18 A: They had -- looked like combat boots, 19 one (1) piece or two (2) piece biettiers (phonetic), 20 battle dress uniform, one (1) colour, maybe dark grey -- 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: -- with floppy boonie hat too and 23 radios. 24 Q: Okay. And, there were a number of 25 these -- how many officers were there at the intersection
1481 of Raven -- at Ravenswood and Highway 21? 2 A: I'd say it was maybe about ten (10). 3 Q: And what did the officers do? When 4 you first saw them, what were they doing? 5 A: They -- they formed a line across the 6 road. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: One (1) or two (2) of them had the 9 mics and they were talking on the mics, suppressing and 10 as we were getting closer, the one stepped forward and 11 said, Stop, you can't come through. You can't come 12 through. Everybody just kept walking the same pace, the 13 trucks kept rolling and the TRU team members separated 14 and just stood and watched everybody walk by. 15 Q: So that people were walking and 16 vehicles were moving at a slow pace, the same pace as the 17 walkers? 18 A: Yeah, walking pace. 19 Q: And it was a large crowd moved 20 together with vehicles and people? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Now, I'd like to take you forward in 23 time to a time after 1995. Did you, at some point, 24 encounter Mr. Roderick George on the beach in front of 25 the Provincial Park and at a time when a number of loons
1491 had died? 2 A: Yeah, I did. 3 Q: And can you tell me when this took 4 place? When you recall it took place? 5 A: It must have been in 1999. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: Probably late August/early September. 8 Q: And why do you say it was in 1999? 9 A: Because that's when the -- the loons 10 -- there was a outbreak of avian botulism all along the 11 frontage, including the Pinery Park. And it was killing 12 loons, diving birds, any that ate fish, sturgeon was also 13 washing up in large numbers and they -- they were all 14 getting this botulism. 15 And I -- when I -- when I did the deer 16 cull in 1998, I start working with two (2) biologists 17 from the Park, Terry Krabe (phonetic) and Tom Purdy 18 (phonetic). 19 Q: And they was MNR biologists -- 20 A: Yeah, from the Pinery. And when 21 those loons start dying, I started working with Tom Purdy 22 and I didn't know him before then, so it was 1999, the 23 following year after the deer cull. 24 So I was collecting the loons on -- from 25 Kettle Point all the way to the edge of Stoney Point and
1501 then Tom Purdy and the Pinery were collecting on their 2 side. 3 What made me collect them is I went down 4 the beach one day and these -- these non -- well these 5 non-native people were -- they were going along, holding 6 the loons down with their feet and pulling feathers off 7 them. 8 And the loon is one of the Anishnaabek 9 totem animals, the leadership animal -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- for a clan. So I start collecting 12 them. It just started that day and I was -- just kept 13 collecting them and -- to bury them, eh? And like Henry 14 come and did a ceremony where I was burying them. 15 And I start collecting them. I collected 16 almost five hundred (500) of the loons at -- just at 17 three (3) kilometres of beach, five hundred (500) loons. 18 That's quite a hit to the population, eh? 19 Q: And that was three (3) kilometres 20 from -- 21 A: Kettle -- 22 Q: Kettle Point -- 23 A: Kettle Point right to -- 24 Q: -- up to Stoney Point? 25 A: Yeah. One (1) day, I went to the
1511 border of Stoney Point, and then I looked over and there 2 was fifteen (15) loons over there. 3 Q: And by -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- border, you mean the -- 6 A: Raven -- 7 Q: The road with the extension -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- from what we've called the sandy 10 parking lot that runs from Army Camp Road down to the 11 beach -- north to the beach? 12 A: Yeah, right there somewhere. Right 13 at -- right there and I looked over and there was nobody 14 around so I thought I'll go across and get those loons, 15 you know, pick them up and bury them. 16 Q: And that was in the beach in front of 17 the Provincial Park? 18 A: Of all the places to get stuck. Of 19 all the stupid places to get stuck, we got stuck on a 20 beach, right round there by that creek. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And I said, oh, that's it, you know. 23 So I abandoned my truck. I got my radios and stuff and 24 stereo face plate and start walking down the beach. 25 And I saw the Anishnaabek police. They
1521 come on the beach from the Army Camp Road. I said, Hey 2 guys, come on over here, pull me out. They had an 3 Expedition. They said, We're not allowed to go over 4 there. I said, It's just right there. They said, No. 5 Then at least call Bernard. 6 So they must have called Bernard to come 7 pull me out. And when I was walking back, I said, I'll 8 dig a little bit round my tires for when Bernard gets 9 here. And that's when Robert George come down the beach 10 and he got out of his truck and start yelling at me and 11 face to face, asking me what I was doing there. 12 I said I'm just getting these loons to 13 bury them, and he -- just yelling at me, saying I didn't 14 belong down there and this and that and... 15 Q: And was -- was Mr. Robert George with 16 anyone? 17 A: There was two (2) people in the 18 truck. I think one (1) might have been a non-native, I 19 couldn't recognize the other one. 20 I said -- I said, Why -- why do I got to 21 leave, what the heck's them guys? He says, That's none 22 of your business. So he say -- you know, I start 23 talking, I said, Why don't you come to my house and talk 24 to me about this, you know? 25 And he said, Well, you want to get
1531 unstuck, I'll get you unstuck then, and he took off. And 2 then Bernard come along and pulled me out. 3 Q: And during your conversation with Mr. 4 Roderick George, did Mr. Roderick George ask you why you 5 had told the OPP they had weapons in the Park? 6 A: I can't remember that. He might 7 have, but I didn't know what he was talking about, 8 because I didn't see that report 'til like just a week 9 ago when you gave that to me. 10 Q: But -- 11 A: When I thought he was yelling 12 gibberish at me. 13 Q: Did you say to him -- do you re -- 14 did you say to Mr. Roderick George, That's what I was 15 told to say? 16 A: No, I didn't say that. 17 Q: And did, prior to reading -- which 18 report are you referring to that you read that -- just a 19 week ago? 20 A: The -- the one by that officer who 21 listed those weapons. 22 Q: Oh, Mark Dew. 23 A: Yeah. I -- I was told a long time 24 ago that there was a -- something out, but I never got to 25 see it.
1541 Q: So you're referring to the Mark Dew - 2 - the statement in Mark Dew's statement that you had told 3 him there were these rifles? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: But you cannot recall back a night 6 the conversation with Mr. Roderick George whether or not 7 he said to you, why did you tell the police that we had 8 weapons in the Park? 9 A: Oh, he was yelling at me, right face 10 to my -- right beside me, so I didn't know what he was 11 going to do so, I put a hand on my mag light. I didn't 12 know what he was -- his intentions were, but then he 13 backed off and -- 14 Q: But the question I'm asking you, do 15 you recall him saying to you, anything about -- 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: -- telling the police there were 18 weapons in the Park? 19 A: Truthfully? No. I really can't. 20 Q: And -- and do you recall saying to 21 him, That's what I was told to say? 22 A: No. I can't recall that, but -- 23 Q: Did anyone ever tell you that you 24 should say that? 25 A: No, nobody -- nobody -- the only two
1551 (2) people telling me what to do are gone, that's my 2 parents. Nobody else can tell me what to do because I've 3 got my own -- my own brain. I'm -- I'm always getting 4 this stuff about Stoney Point and I'm really getting sick 5 of it. 6 Q: And before I close, is there anything 7 else that you would like to add, Mr. George? 8 A: No, not really. 9 Q: And one (1) of the purposes and one 10 (1) of the mandates of the Commission is to make 11 recommendations to avoid violence in the future in 12 situations such as this and is there anything that you 13 would like to suggest to the Commissioner that he 14 consider in terms of recommendations? 15 A: Well, like I mentioned before when I 16 was in the -- the Board of Governors with the APS, it 17 would be nice to have a native trained -- several natives 18 throughout the province to be trained as TRU team members 19 and negotiators because from what I read when I was on 20 the -- the Board about their training, they -- they see 21 each -- they don't see the individual when they're called 22 to a situation. All they see is targets and threats. 23 And I'd like to go back to a time when a 24 TRU team was called on our First Nation against my other 25 cousin, Darryl George.
1561 These guys were -- surrounded his place. 2 Darryl saw that, he -- Darryl didn't want to come out and 3 they -- the Kettle -- the Indian police couldn't go talk 4 to him and I feel that -- that was going to end in, 5 probably Darryl getting shot, but Bernard went in there 6 and talked to Darryl and Darryl said, I'll surrender to a 7 native cop. So, that's one (1) thing. 8 I think if natives were trained as TRU 9 team members and negotiators, if there's ever another 10 incident on -- on a First Nation, these guys can be 11 called in and to walk in there without -- dressed up like 12 a SWAT team member, you know and -- I remember of this 13 team out there. You got to come out. 14 I'll bring a native -- one (1) of your 15 local constables in and -- and but you've got to 16 surrender today or I got to go out there and put my TRU 17 team suit back on and I got to come in with the rest of 18 the guys now. 19 See, something like that. Natives -- 20 natives see -- even today I see a OPP car go by and I'm 21 on the highway I'll -- I'll watch it in the mirror; it's 22 just reflex. The kids still draw things in the school 23 about cops. It's just a thing you've got to -- I feel if 24 you had native TRU team officers it'll -- it'll help a 25 lot.
1571 Q: And -- and why do you turn and look 2 in your mirror when you pass a -- a -- 3 A: It's a habit. You don't do it with 4 the Anishnaabek police. You do it with the OPP. 5 Q: So -- and why do you do it? You 6 don't do it with the Anishnaabek police and -- you don't 7 do it with them, but you do it with the OPP? 8 A: Because -- 9 Q: Can you articulate why you do that? 10 A: Because you're -- the Anishnaabek 11 police from your First Nation are your members. And I 12 know there's native -- native OPP, but that's -- they -- 13 they put the uniform on and -- and that's it, they're 14 OPP. And -- and from -- if anybody's here from 1995, you 15 still do that. You see OPP go by, you look, you watch 16 them in the mirror. You think, Oh, is he going to come 17 and pull me over? 18 Q: So, you're concerned -- you don't 19 trust the OPP, I take it? 20 A: It's bad coming from a police 21 committee member, but sometimes yeah, I -- I don't. I 22 really don't because even last year we had to deal with 23 e-mail that was being sent around by OPP -- racist e-mail 24 about an Indian lady -- native lady and we handled that 25 in -- in the Anishinabek police service. Then you've got
1581 these radio transmissions coming out about them setting 2 traps down there for the Indians with Labatt's 50. 3 Who do you trust? They don't come to any 4 of the stores on the reserve. They ride by. 5 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. George. 6 Those are my questions. My Friends will have -- who 7 represent other parties will as well have questions and 8 perhaps, Commissioner, it would be -- I don't know when 9 you want to break for lunch, but before we do we should 10 canvas and see who would like to interview to ask 11 questions of Mr. George. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 13 that's exactly what we'll do. We'll canvas, see who's 14 interested in cross-examining with some estimate of time 15 and then we'll take a lunch break, is that all right? 16 Who is expecting to cross-examine Mr. George? Members of 17 the media don't get a chance. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Henderson -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Henderson is? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- represents Mr. 22 George. So Mr. Henderson -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would go 24 last if he has any questions depending on how it goes. 25 Okay, Mr. Alexander how long do you think you might be?
1591 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Twenty (20) to 2 thirty (30) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 4 to thirty (30) minutes. Mr. Rosenthal? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Probably just about 6 an hour or so. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 8 writing this down, counsellor? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I am. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh oOkay. 11 You are. Okay. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We both are. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross? 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Probably forty (40) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Hourigan? 18 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Approximately forty- 19 five (45) minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 21 Jackson? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thirty (30) to 23 forty-five (45) minutes, likely forty-five (45) 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 Sulman...?
1601 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Depending on what 2 goes before me, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 4 Jones...? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: About an hour and a 6 half. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay then. 8 Obviously we're not going to finish today because we're 9 going to break at 3:30. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll get 12 as far as we can this afternoon and we'll continue when 13 we come back. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. George, what that 15 means is that we know that you have -- we normally break 16 on a Thursday at 3:30 and you have an engagement at four 17 o'clock to take the youth group to Walpole Island, so we 18 will break at 3:30 today but with the number -- the 19 length of time that people have indicated, we're going to 20 have to ask you -- excuse me, to come back on Monday. 21 And on Monday we start at 10:30, so. 22 THE WITNESS: All right. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we'll break for 24 lunch now, sir, is that? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, an
1611 hour, an hour and a quarter long enough? An hour and a 2 quarter for lunch now. So it's about 25 after -- I don't 3 know what that is -- 20 to? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Twenty to 2:00, sure. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 6 adjourned until twenty (20) minutes to 2:00. 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 12:23 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 1:42 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. We start this afternoon with the cross- 15 examinations starting with Mr. Alexander. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 19 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 20 A: Good afternoon. 21 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I 22 represent the Estate of Dudley George and several members 23 of the George family. And I have a few questions that I 24 would like to ask you today. 25 A: Yeah.
1621 Q: To start with, I would like to focus 2 on questions related to the dent caused by the stone 3 thrown by Stewart George during the evening of September 4 6th, 1995. I would like to refer you back to Tab 9 which 5 is Inquiry Document 2000-549. 6 Do you have it, Mr. George? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: This is an interview report taken by 9 police Constable Poole that contains a statement by you 10 on September 6th, 1995, correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that is your signature on each 13 page, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I would request 16 that this document be marked as the next exhibit please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-123. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-123: September 6, 1995 interview 21 report taken by police Constable Poole 22 with signature on each page. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 25 Q: When you signed the statement, did
1631 you believe it to be accurate? 2 A: Pretty much so. 3 Q: And do you believe it to be accurate 4 today? 5 A: Yeah except for the -- the assault. 6 Q: Fair enough. Now when you stopped at 7 the police checkpoint a few minutes after the stone was 8 thrown to make this complaint, did anybody take a 9 photograph or video of the dent? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: So to your knowledge you -- nobody 12 took a photograph or video of the dent? 13 A: I really can't remember. 14 Q: Okay. After the shooting of Dudley 15 George, there were several police and other 16 investigations for several years during which many 17 photographs and videos were taken of various vehi -- 18 various vehicles and other evidence. 19 Are you aware if any photographs or videos 20 were taken of that dent during those various police and 21 other investigations or by anyone else? 22 A: I can't remember. It was fixed 23 pretty quickly, by insurance. 24 Q: So it was -- 25 A: Yeah.
1641 Q: So do you know when the dent was 2 fixed. 3 A: I can't remember. Maybe within about 4 a month. 5 Q: Within about a month? 6 A: Around that area. 7 Q: Do you know who was responsible for 8 fixing the dent? 9 A: I think Stewarton's (phonetic) Auto 10 Body in Forest. 11 Q: Could you repeat that please? 12 A: I think Stewarton's Auto Body in 13 Forest. I'm not sure. I think that's the -- the 14 collision place that Co-Operators used; that's our 15 insurance company. 16 Q: So was there an insurance claim filed 17 in order to fix this dent? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And, do you have any idea of how much 20 it cost to fix the dent? 21 A: I'm not sure, I can't remember. 22 Q: Moving onto another issue. I 23 understand from your evidence that you told the police 24 that there were hunting rifles in the army camp, correct? 25 A: Yes.
1651 Q: Did you at any time say to the police 2 that there were guns in Ipperwash Park during September 3 4th, 5th or 6th as compared to the army camp? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Finally, I would like to ask your 6 views on the future of the Ipperwash parklands. Would 7 you agree with me, that despite the differences of 8 opinion in the local Native community at Ipperwash, one 9 (1) thing is clear. And that is that fairness demands 10 that the Ipperwash Parkland should be returned to native 11 people. 12 A: Well, it should be returned because 13 it was part of Stoney Point. 14 Q: So, you do agree that it should be 15 returned to native people? 16 A: Yeah. That's what we were working at 17 in '94. 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. I have no 19 further questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Alexander. Mr. Rosenthal...? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 afternoon, Mr. Rosenthal.
1661 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 3 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 4 A: Good afternoon. 5 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm 6 representing some of the people from Stoney Point under 7 the name Aazhoodena and the George Family Group. 8 Now, at the beginning of the occupation of 9 the Army Camp, you joined it, you've told us; is that 10 correct? 11 A: I what? 12 Q: You -- you -- you participated in the 13 occupation of the Army Camp property at the beginning of 14 the occupation? 15 A: Yeah, in '93. 16 Q: And, I take it, that was because you 17 believed that it was reasonable given the length of time 18 that the Federal Government had held onto that property 19 without returning it to resort to some action, such as an 20 occupation? 21 A: Yeah. Yes. 22 Q: And you just told Mr. Alexander that 23 you agreed also that the land that had become the 24 Ipperwash Park was land that belonged to the Stoney Point 25 people?
1671 A: Yeah. 2 MR. BILL HENDERSON: Stop right there. 3 That -- that's not what Mr. George said in response to -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, I -- I 5 understand my Friend's objection and I -- you didn't say, 6 To the Stoney Point people, you said to the First Nations 7 people. 8 THE WITNESS: The first -- I usually say 9 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations Territories, so 10 that's what I usually use when I talk about both land 11 tracts. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 14 Q: Yes, well perhaps we should get into 15 that a little bit. Now, it's your understanding, sir, 16 that theY were two (2) separate reserves prior to 1942, 17 right? 18 A: Yeah, ruled by one (1) band. 19 Q: I'm sorry? 20 A: Ruled by one (1) band. 21 Q: Owned by one (1) band, but two (2) 22 separate reserves, is your understanding, right? 23 A: Two (2) tracts of land owned by one 24 (1) -- administrated by one (1) First Nations Council. 25 Q: Yes, two (2) tracts of land, one (1)
1681 that was called Kettle Point Reserve and one (1) called 2 Stoney Point Reserve, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And they had different numbers, one 5 (1) was Reserve 43144, I believe? 6 A: That was a number given to them by 7 the non-natives, so it really doesn't mean nothing to me. 8 Q: Yes. And then you told us that you 9 learned from your ancestors a bit about the problems that 10 were caused by the relocation after the seizure of the 11 Stoney Point Reserve in 1942. Right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And resentments were created on both 14 sides by the -- the forced removal of the people from 15 Stoney Point Reserve to Kettle Point Reserve. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And still today, people sometimes 18 bear the scars of some of that resentment. Is that fair 19 to say? 20 A: Some people are carrying on their 21 arguments. 22 Q: And you told us that I believe you 23 feel somewhat divided because you have one (1) parent 24 from -- originally from Stoney Point and one (1) from 25 Kettle Point?
1691 A: No, I'm not divided, I'm from both 2 tracts. 3 Q: From both tracts, yeah. And in fact, 4 it's your understanding, is it not, that even prior to 5 1942, there was much interaction between people on the 6 two (2) different tracts and there was intermarriage and 7 so on. Isn't that fair to say? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, the -- the Kettle and Stony 10 Point Band Council did not initiate the occupation of the 11 Army Base, certainly? 12 A: Yes. They -- they didn't. 13 Q: Sorry? 14 A: They didn't support it; it wasn't 15 official. 16 Q: And they didn't support it, but -- 17 but you, nonetheless, personally supported it, at least 18 at the beginning? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And in retrospect, do you -- do you 21 feel that that support was sensible on your part? That 22 it was useful to occupy that land in order to get it 23 returned to the First Nation's people? 24 A: Yes, in a non-violent way. 25 Q: In a non-violent way?
1701 A: Yes, because we listened to Robert 2 George, Sr. -- Jr. -- Nobby. 3 Q: What's that? 4 A: He told us not to anything that would 5 be construed as being violent -- anything to give them an 6 excuse to bring the police in, so we -- we listened to 7 our leader. 8 Q: Now, we -- you told us that you did 9 not attend the Burying the Hatchet ceremony? And we've 10 heard -- 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: We've heard from some other witnesses 13 who did attend it that that was meant to indicate that 14 the reclamation of the land was to be in a non- violent 15 way. That would be your understanding, right? 16 A: I don't know nothing about that 17 ceremony. I think that's an Iroquoian or Huron. I'm not 18 sure. 19 Q: Fine. 20 A: It's not Anishnaabek. 21 Q: Well, now that gets into another 22 issue that you spoke strongly about. About other First 23 Nations people who came to support the people who were 24 occupying the Base and then ultimately the Park. 25 And you told us that it was your view that
1711 such other supporters should not be -- should not be 2 there; is that correct? 3 A: They can be there as long as they 4 don't bug the Elders. Like what happened to Gladys 5 Lundehn. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: They have no right. No right telling 8 her Stoney, the original Stoney Pointers where they can 9 and cannot be on that property. 10 Q: But if they didn't do that they were 11 welcome there, in your view? 12 A: In my view, they're welcome. 13 Q: And you would agree, would you not, 14 that if you're -- if you're doing something like was 15 being done occupying the land, you would want as much 16 support as possible from people in order to ensure that 17 that occupation continues, right? 18 A: As long as it was in a non-violent 19 matter and they didn't -- they didn't -- they didn't -- 20 Q: As long as it was non-violent and 21 didn't -- didn't bother any other people, right? You 22 shook your head yes, you've said yes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And would you understand that it 25 might have been particularly important for people who are
1721 occupying the Army Camp to have outside support in light 2 of the fact that the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council 3 wasn't supporting the occupation. 4 A: We couldn't support it at the time. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Officially, because we -- on one (1) 7 hand you enter negotiations and on the other hand you 8 can't be saying things like what was coming out of there. 9 It -- it wouldn't work. 10 Q: All right. I -- I wasn't enquiring 11 into the reasons that you didn't, but that the Council 12 didn't, but I was suggesting to you that given the fact 13 that the Council didn't support it, that would make it 14 even more important for the people there to try and get 15 as broad support as possible. Isn't that fair to say? 16 A: Yeah. People donated food -- the UAW 17 donated food when we were down there and clothing and -- 18 there was a lot of support coming in from other areas. 19 Those weren't Native organizations, they were non-native 20 too. 21 Q: Yes. So in -- in addition to the 22 support from some First Nations people other than local 23 First Nations people there was support from some non- 24 native people as well? 25 A: Yes.
1731 Q: And that's what you've referred to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you understand that they would 4 have welcomed that support as well because they wanted to 5 have as much support as possible to try to enforce the 6 demand that these lands be returned to the First Nations 7 people, right? 8 A: Yes. Robert George had a Japanese 9 Canadian association come in and they supported us at the 10 front gate one (1) time with a demonstration. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now from your 12 evidence today you -- you told us on September 6th you 13 made three (3) different trips to -- to the area of the 14 Camp and the Park. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now from what you've told us, during 17 each of those trips you observed a buildup of the police. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you observed that buildup well 20 before the incident involving you and Stewart George. 21 A: It was starting the day before. 22 Q: Even the day before? 23 A: I saw more police than regular around 24 there. 25 Q: So on September 5th the buildup
1741 started and then you noticed an increased buildup on 2 September 6th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: One (1) thing you told us that you 5 were surprised to see the police yelling back when they 6 were faced with yells from the First Nations people and 7 it was your view that was inappropriate for the police. 8 I don't think you told us your best recollection as to 9 what the police actually were saying. 10 And I -- I believe you were maybe 11 inhibited a bit by the concern about using words that we 12 may not normally say in -- 13 A: No, -- 14 Q: -- polite company but -- but could 15 you -- could you take your mind back and try, to the best 16 of your recollection, and I do realize of course it's 17 many years ago. 18 A: The -- the only thing I can -- I can 19 really remember, the only really thing I can remember 20 clearly is that one (1) of them yelled out, You probably 21 don't even know what those words are saying. I think 22 they were referring to their music, the traditional music 23 coming out of the truck. 24 Q: All right. So one (1) of them 25 yelled, you probably don't even know what those words
1751 mean -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- or words to that affect. 4 A: Yeah. And the other guy was saying - 5 - I couldn't hear what the other guy was saying because 6 he was down a little further from the first officer. 7 Q: I see. But that's all you can 8 recall -- 9 A: Yeah, that's all I can -- it's like a 10 while ago. 11 Q: I appreciate that, sir. 12 A: I can remember that, though. 13 Q: Now in respect to this report that 14 you reported the possibility of guns in the camp, I 15 gather that you are absolutely clear that you never told 16 any police officer that any occupiers had any guns other 17 than, likely, that they had guns for hunting? 18 A: I mentioned the guns I used when I 19 was in there and then I said they probably have similar 20 guns in the Base to hunt with, because everybody hunts in 21 the fall. And I mentioned I had a shotgun, I used 22 shotguns in there, so they probably hunt with shotguns. 23 Q: Now, Mr. Millar took you to a -- a 24 report of a conversation that you had with an officer 25 named Mark Dew and you told us that you had read that
1761 report for the first time a week ago in preparation for 2 your testimony here today, right? 3 A: Yeah. The -- back in '97, '96, 4 somewhere in there, someone else told me about something 5 that some officers were saying that I -- I said there's 6 guns in there, but I -- I can't really remember who told 7 me that. It might have been a news reporter or 8 something. 9 Q: Yes, with your indulgence, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I can't remember if he's from the 15 newspapers or where he's from, or if it was a female, I 16 can't really remember. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I believe, sir, that you have at Tab 21 19 of your brief, a transcript of a CBC television 22 program, evidently, or perhaps it was radio. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And that is evidently Inquiry 25 Document Number 1002624 and --
1771 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 2 what tab is it, Mr. Rosenthal? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe it's 4 Tab -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: If you would please turn to page 8 of 11 that transcript, and what is transcribed is you having 12 told the CBC on that occasion, which was, according to 13 the record, on 7 January, 1997, much closer in time to 14 the event than we are today, is the following: 15 "One (1) of the plain clothes officer 16 come up and he asked me what kind of -- 17 if I knew what kind of guns they had in 18 the Camp, the guys in the Park, if they 19 had any kind of weapons, because he 20 said that he heard that they had an 21 anti-tank rocket. 22 And I kind of laughed at them. I said, 23 Why the hell would they need an anti- 24 tank rocket? You guys going to bring 25 tanks out here?
1781 But then I said, Probably the only 2 things those guys have is probably deer 3 hunting rifles and rifles and shotguns 4 for the duck pond because there's a 5 good duck pond back there by the target 6 tanks, the old Shermans back there. 7 And he kept bugging me. I just said, 8 That's all they got." 9 I'm going to read you a subsequent 10 passage, but sir, does that bring back a memory of what 11 you think of a -- a newspaper or radio or media report -- 12 A: Yeah, that -- 13 Q: -- that asked you about the report of 14 Officer Dew? 15 A: Yeah, that must be. That must be 16 what I -- because I was reading Officer Dew's log and he 17 doesn't even mention that he asked me about a anti-tank 18 rocket or got me to point out pictures or anything. So I 19 don't -- yeah, but that -- that must be -- 20 Q: That must be it, right? 21 A: Yeah, because it wasn't like that. 22 Q: And -- and this was evidently 23 broadcast on 7 January, 1997, so I'm not sure when you 24 would have been recorded. 25 A: Was it around '97?
1791 Q: Yes, according to the document. But 2 -- so you would have been recorded presumably some time 3 prior to 7 January 1997 as saying those words. And when 4 you see those words now, does that refresh your memory? 5 I mean this was something you said -- 6 A: Sort of. 7 Q: -- closer in time -- 8 A: Well, -- 9 Q: -- much closer in time than now. 10 A: I was always talking about hunting 11 rifles and I can remember I was talking about the duck -- 12 hunting ducks back there in a anti-tank rocket or rocket 13 launcher. I can't remember if he asked me if it was 14 anti-tank rocket or rocket launcher, but it was a -- 15 Q: Right. But you -- there's no reason 16 to assume that this is not accurate. This is probably an 17 accurate transcript. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Is that right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And probably your recollection of the 22 incident and the interchange with the officer was clearer 23 in -- on -- in -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- 1997, than it is today, many years
1801 later; is that fair? 2 A: Yeah, it's a little while later, 3 yeah. 4 Q: Yes. And then if we could turn to 5 the -- well, perhaps we should, to understand the 6 context, read what the reporter says next on that same 7 page. The reporter says: 8 "Joe George assumed the Indians had 9 gone hunting, but didn't actually see 10 any. How his information ends up in 11 the logs is worth examining. 12 Detective Constable Mark Dew. I just 13 talked to a fellow down there who's 14 been in and eyeballed some of the 15 weaponry that they have. He has seen 16 four (4) SKS Russian semi-automatics. 17 They have thirty (30) round detachable 18 clips. They've got two (2) Ruger mini 19 14s and he thinks they're up to making 20 gas bombs." 21 And then the reporter asks you, evidently, 22 Did you tell them that? And according to the transcript 23 you reply: 24 "Gas bombs? Rugers? I don't think 25 so."
1811 And then evident, you -- you laughed. 2 According to the transcript: 3 "What were they going to use the gas 4 bombs on?" 5 And the reporter continues: 6 "But did you tell them that you saw 7 this weaponry inside the Camp?" 8 And according to the transcript you 9 answer: 10 "No, I didn't tell them. I don't know 11 where the hell they got that list. 12 Anybody could make up a list like 13 that." 14 Now again, sir, I would ask you, is it 15 likely that this transcript is accurate? 16 A: More than likely. I can still 17 remember talking about the gas bombs. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: So, how would I know what they were 20 doing inside the Base? I didn't go in there. 21 Q: Yeah. And again, sir, given the fact 22 that this was some time prior to or on January 7, 1997, 23 it's likely that at that time you had a -- a more 24 accurate recollection than you might have these many 25 years later. Is that fair to say?
1821 A: Yeah. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: So, if any officer reports that you 6 told them that you'd seen many -- any semi-automatic 7 rifles or anything in there that -- that would be an 8 incorrect report? 9 A: I didn't see no rifles or guns in 10 that Park. 11 Q: Yeah. And in fact, you didn't see 12 anything in either the Camp or the Park on those several 13 days because you weren't even in the Camp or the Park on 14 those days; isn't that fair? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So all you told the officer was that 17 probably they have guns in there for hunting just like I 18 used to do when I was there. 19 A: Yeah, that's just assuming. 20 Q: Did -- did you attend any of the 21 meetings with police officers on September 6th, 1995 22 other than meeting with them at the checkpoints as you've 23 told us? 24 A: No, from what I can remember, no just 25 -- just at the checkpoints. I might have talked to our
1831 police, but I really can't remember -- the Kettle Point 2 police. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: But that would have been way later 5 when we were making a roadblock. 6 Q: All right. And I -- I'd like to turn 7 to Exhibit 73, which is this letter that you wrote to the 8 Forest Standard on August 30th, 1995. 9 A: What -- what tab? 10 Q: I don't believe -- I'm not sure if it 11 was a tab. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 6. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Oh, it's Tab 6, sorry. Tab 6. Now, 16 sir, did you -- you've told us that you consulted with 17 Chief Tom Bressette quite a lot during the course of 18 these events and reported to him and so on. 19 Did you consult with him before writing 20 this letter? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And did you discuss the contents of 23 the letter with Chief Bressette? 24 A: No. They told me I should have. 25 Q: They told you --
1841 A: Before I -- they kind of -- gave me 2 heck -- gave me heck for writing it. 3 Q: I'm sorry, my hearing is not -- 4 A: He was -- he wasn't happy with me 5 writing that after it come out. 6 Q: After it appeared, he indicated his 7 displeasure? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And Mr. Millar was asking you about 10 this letter. At first you said that one (1) of the 11 reasons that you felt you should write this letter was 12 because of some of the harassment of people on the beach 13 by occupiers had led to trouble at the local high school. 14 But then Mr. Millar pointed out to you 15 that high school was likely not sitting in August. 16 A: High school in -- when it was in, the 17 kids were -- they were starting to -- the non-native 18 thing was already taking off when the kids even before 19 they were let out for the summer break. 20 And this -- this just amplified it, along 21 with -- you would have to live with the times and be a 22 member of the First Nation to know what I'm talking 23 about. 24 Q: Well, I'm not a Member of the First 25 Nation, but from my vantage point, I would ask you the
1851 following, sir. 2 Wouldn't you think that a letter like 3 this, that implies that these Army camp Indians are 4 animals and jerks, might help to increase tension and 5 increase racism against First Nations people? 6 A: Well, that's what my chief told me. 7 Q: That's what your chief told you? And 8 in -- upon reflection, that's a reasonable conclusion, is 9 it not, sir? 10 A: I guess. 11 Q: Sir? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, in retrospect, I gather you 17 would wish you had not written this letter; is that fair 18 to say? 19 A: Some parts of it. 20 Q: Now, Mr. Alexander asked you a few 21 moments ago about the interview report that's at Tab 9 of 22 the interview that you gave in relation to the incident 23 involving Mr. Stewart George, which is Inquiry Document 24 2000549. 25 And you told Mr. Alexander that that was
1861 an accurate report, except for the omission of the punch 2 by Stewart, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in particular, then, it is 5 accurate, as you indicated there, that the other people 6 who were with Stewart were thirty-five (35) feet away 7 from him, approximately. That was your estimate at the 8 time, right? 9 A: Somewhere round that area. 10 Q: And so they weren't near threatening 11 you at all, they were well -- well back from you? 12 A: They were back aways. 13 Q: Yes. And that only one (1) of them 14 had something in his hand and I believe today you thought 15 it might have been a stick and in the course of the 16 report I believe you -- 17 A: It might have a stick -- 18 Q: -- say it's a bat. 19 A: Might have been a stick, might have 20 been a bat. 21 Q: Might have been a bat or a stick. 22 But in any event, only one (1) of those other people had 23 something in his hands, right? 24 A: Yes. From what I can remember. 25 Q: And that's what you reported in this
1871 current report, also. 2 A: Yeah. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, at Tab 16 there is the SIU 7 interview with you, sir, that was Inquiry Document 8 1002275. And on page 4 of that document, you talk about 9 what you've told us about, I'm looking about two-thirds 10 of the way down the page, about people taunting the 11 police and the police responding, and so on. 12 But the -- what I wanted to ask you about 13 was the following. And you said: 14 "And they were taunting the police and 15 I could see that when I was writing out 16 my report I could see that the TRU team 17 was getting nervous, too." 18 You see the part I'm referring to, sir? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And my question is, what report? 21 A: I think I had a book with me and I 22 was writing things in it, how much police were -- I just 23 drew a little, crude map. I was writing how much cop 24 cars I saw here and there and how much police were 25 standing around there.
1881 Q: And those were reports to be 2 delivered to whom? 3 A: Just for me. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: Just -- they were just for me. Just 6 I -- 7 Q: Well, wouldn't you agree that a 8 report suggests that you're going to give it to someone 9 else. If it was something just for you, you'd say my 10 notes wouldn't you? 11 A: Well, I should have called it my 12 notes then, because it was just for me. 13 Q: It wasn't to report to Chief 14 Bressette, for example? 15 A: No, it wasn't for report for no one. 16 Q: And what happened to those notes? Do 17 you have them with you? 18 A: No. I don't know where they went. 19 It was in a black book, one (1) of my official books. 20 Like I write a bunch of stuff about hunting committees 21 and it was a jumble of stuff, all my meetings. And I 22 don't know where it went. 23 Q: We've heard reports of another 24 alleged attack on September 6th of an older woman by 25 baseball bats. And I -- I didn't quite understand what
1891 you said in respect of your knowledge of that to Mr. 2 Millar. You -- you said that you -- if I understood you 3 correctly, that you first heard of that on a scanner? 4 A: I think -- no. I -- I was assuming 5 some people heard from from a scanner -- from the because 6 were telling us that at -- when -- at our barricade on 7 Kettle Point -- 8 Q: At the barricade at Kettle Point made 9 after the shooting incident? 10 A: Yeah. Way after the shooting 11 incident, we heard that some pe -- some old lady or 12 somebody was attacked by baseball bats along the beach. 13 Q: And you hadn't heard that prior 14 yourself. 15 A: No. 16 Q: And did you hear anymore about that 17 afterward as to who -- who was allegedly involved in this 18 incident or anything? 19 A: No. We -- we couldn't find out who 20 the lady was. We thought it was a non-native but I don't 21 -- I don't really think she existed. I think they -- I 22 think they mixed up that report with me and -- brought in 23 the bat. I don't know where it come from. 24 I think they might have mixed it all up. 25 Maybe a lady come along there and after me or something
1901 the cops messed it up, but I'm not sure where it come 2 from. 3 Q: With your indulgence, Mr. 4 Commissioner? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 9 George, thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 Mr. Rosenthal. Mr. Ross...? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 16 Q: Mr. George, is it fair to say that 17 prior to 1993 when people first occupied the range that 18 there was little or no meaningful discussion with the 19 Federal Government with respect to the return of what has 20 now been termed the Stoney Point lands? 21 A: Yeah. That why the locatees were 22 meeting to decide how to take action on it. 23 Q: Yeah. So we've got the taking of the 24 lands in 1942, the end of the war in 1945 and for want of 25 better terms, foot dragging until 1993 when direct action
1911 was taken by some members of your Band. Am I correct 2 with that? 3 A: Foot dragging by who? 4 Q: By the Federal Government. 5 A: You could say that because I don't -- 6 Q: It's not for me. I just want your -- 7 what you -- what you think. If I'm wrong tell me. 8 A: Yeah, that's right. They're just 9 playing with the Band because the Band kept sending 10 letters in over the years. 11 Q: Absolutely. Destroying a lot of 12 trees and building a lot of files but no real action. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And in 1993 after people moved onto 15 the site, there was some response from the different 16 governments, although they did not address a solution 17 model; am I correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now as far as the occupation in 1993 20 is concerned, I understand that that occupation was led 21 by Carl George as -- sorry, signing as chief for the 22 Stoney Pointers. 23 A: I'm not sure if it was Carl George or 24 if it was Robert George, in '93. I think Carl George 25 took over maybe winter of '94.
1921 Q: I believe you will find that there is 2 an exhibit where somebody was delivering a notice up at 3 the Camp and it is signed by Carl George. Carl O. 4 George. 5 A: Yeah, Carl Otosma (phonetic) now. He 6 changed his last name. 7 Q: So if the exhibit shows that it was 8 Carl George, you will accept that it was -- that the -- 9 the -- the occupation was led by him? 10 MR WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner? 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know about that. 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With -- in 13 fairness to the Witness, Commissioner, we've heard a lot 14 of evidence about what the succession of leadership was 15 there. 16 I don't think that -- that exhibit would 17 prove it one (1) way or the other conclusively in the 18 face of all of the other evidence that you've already 19 heard. And I don't think it's fair to the witness to ask 20 him to hinge his evidence on what that exhibit may or may 21 not show. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 23 to see the exhibit that you're referring to? Should we 24 pull it out -- 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Scullion is trying
1931 to find it but it is not hinging his evidence on it. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 5 Q: So, in any event, there was an 6 occupation and this occupation was led by a member of the 7 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations group. Am I correct 8 with that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And would you agree with me 11 that regardless to who led that occupation, regardless to 12 who led that occupation, and regardless to the people who 13 did occupy the camp, none of them were looking for a deed 14 in their own name. You'd agree with me there? 15 A: Excuse -- 16 Q: You weren't looking for a deed for 17 those lands in your own name, were you? 18 A: A deed? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. So it was really a collective 22 political move, rather than a move for individual 23 ownership? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay.
1941 A: Because everybody had different 2 families with different lands on there. 3 Q: Absolutely. And so it was really a 4 political move intended to push government along and to 5 get them to start making some real, meaningful decisions; 6 am I correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I ask, sir, that you look at Exhibit 9 P-35. This is the document dated May the 18th, 1993 and 10 it is signed by Carl George and it is addressed, To whom 11 it may concern. 12 "Notification is hereby given to all 13 individuals at the Stoney Point First 14 Nation reserve No. 43 on Aazhoodena 15 territory, situated on what is commonly 16 called Bosanquet Township, Lampton" et 17 cetera. 18 And all I'm wanting to do is to identify 19 that as at that date, in May 1993, that Carl George was 20 involved in a senior capacity. 21 A: He was involved. A lot of people did 22 signing authorities. Maynard T. would do it once in a 23 while, Carl would do it, and Robert would do it once in a 24 while. 25 Q: And Robert? That's Robert George
1951 also nicknamed Nobby? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. We will get you to look at the 4 exhibit. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Have you seen that document before? 9 You can just flick over the page. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: For the benefit of My 14 Friends, it's Inquiry Document Number 2000668. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And exhibit 16 number what...? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-35. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, I can't read that. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 22 Q: So had you seen that document before, 23 Mr. George? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: You don't recall, then.
1961 A: It's like - but there's a lot of 2 documents with the Aazhoodena symbol on it with different 3 signers and this must be a kind of a BCR (phonetic), I 4 guess, do you like to call it? 5 Q: Well, Mr. George, I don't plan to get 6 into the real details of the document, and I agree with 7 you that there would be a lot of documents around, but I 8 want to just ask about that one. If you haven't seen 9 it -- 10 A: I -- I can't remember if I saw that 11 or not. 12 Q: You can't remember seeing that? 13 Okay. 14 A: I've seen so much of them. 15 Q: But did you have a chance to read -- 16 read the content of the document? 17 A: I would, but I'm having trouble 18 reading --- reading right now. I can't really -- I can - 19 - I can see a little bit of it. 20 Q: Well, okay, fine. Anyway, I'll just 21 move on. Now, after the occupation, I understand it was 22 in May of 1993. Am I correct with that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I understand that the people who 25 occupied the lands in 19 -- May of -- after May of 1993 -
1971 - started a dialogue with the Chief and Council down at 2 Kettle Point. Are you aware of that? 3 A: From what I can remember, yeah. 4 Q: Yeah. And they even got the Chiefs 5 of Ontario -- the Ontario Chiefs involved. Gord Peters, 6 remember that name? 7 A: I remember Gord Peters' name, but I 8 can't remember their -- when they started getting 9 involved or anything like that. 10 Q: Well, the timing I want to tell you 11 is not really all that critical. 12 A: See, that's what I'm worried about. 13 You're telling me I should have something to read. 14 Q: No, I'm not saying you should have 15 something to read, Mr. George, I'm asking you if you 16 recall the Office of the Chiefs of Ontario getting 17 involved at any time in the person of Gordon Peters. 18 A: I can't remember. I can remember 19 Gord Peters being there after the shooting, but -- 20 Q: But you don't remember -- 21 A: -- but before that, I can't remember. 22 Q: Now, as a council -- you were on 23 Council in 1993, am I correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that
1981 there was a meeting in the summer of 1993 at the offices 2 of the Chiefs of Ontario on College Street -- College and 3 Yonge in Toronto, at which time Maynard T. George and his 4 supporters, along with Chief Tom Bressette and his 5 Council were trying to come up with a working arrangement 6 on how both groups are going to approach the Federal 7 Government. 8 Does that ring a bell with you? 9 A: I can't remember the meeting, but I 10 remember Tom trying to work along with me -- 11 Q: An effort for both sides to get 12 together and have a collective approach to the Federal 13 Government. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. And I understand that a 16 working document had been prepared in the summer of 1993, 17 but it was never executed for quite a -- a number of 18 reasons. Does that ring a bell with you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: I see. 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: Fine. And in the summer of 1993, to 23 bring further attention to the concerns of the people 24 occupying the lands, there was a march to Ottawa was 25 organized. Did you remember that?
1991 A: Yeah, I remember that. That was 2 during the election when Canadians voted in Kim Campbell 3 for Prime Minister. 4 Q: Is it -- 5 A: Bad time for a march and the election 6 was -- 7 Q: I don't think march caused that, but 8 anyway -- 9 A: Yeah, I remember the march. 10 Q: So you recall that there was march to 11 Ottawa? 12 A: Yeah, it was in -- 13 Q: Did you participate in that march? 14 A: No. 15 Q: How long did you reside on the lands 16 at IR-43? 17 A: At Stoney Point? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: I don't really dwell on those numbers 20 because that's a non -- that's a number given by the 21 white man. I -- I don't dwell on the numbers of the 22 reserves. I stayed there probably until about the middle 23 of August -- early August. 24 Q: As far as those numbers are 25 concerned --
2001 A: Forty-three (43) -- forty-four (44) 2 don't mean nothing to me. 3 Q: Well, let the record show that I had 4 nothing to do with those numbers, I'm -- 5 A: Well, you're not, you know, you're 6 one (1) of the -- 7 Q: Okay. So, anyway, you stayed there 8 from May until around August? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did you leave early August or late 11 August, or do you remember? 12 A: Probably around the middle, I can't 13 really remember -- around the middle -- 14 Q: Around the middle of August? 15 A: -- early August. 16 Q: Now, there's an allegation that there 17 was helicopters flying over the lands during the summer-- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- of 1993. Do you recall that? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: So the act -- so you can actually 22 recall when you were living on the lands, helicopters 23 buzzing you? 24 A: It was in August some time. 25 Q: But you recall it?
2011 A: Middle of August. I -- I really 2 never saw the helicopters and while I was sleeping one 3 (1) night I think I heard them, but I never had 4 experience with them flying over our campground. 5 Q: I see. There is suggestion that the 6 helicopters operated mostly at night. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do you -- 9 A: Yeah, we never saw them during the 10 day. 11 Q: I see. And there is the allegation 12 of a shot having been fired at the helicopter. Did you 13 know anything about that? 14 A: No, I didn't. I wasn't staying there 15 at the time that happened. 16 Q: Or that it was supposed to have 17 happened. 18 A: Supposed to happen. 19 Q: I see. So you stayed there up until 20 sometime around the middle of August, 1993? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what kind of response was the 23 group getting from the Federal Government during that 24 time? 25 A: I can't remember.
2021 Q: Do you recall if there was any 2 discussions -- if there was any discussions between the 3 occupiers and DND, Department of National Defence? 4 A: Negotiating? I don't think there's 5 no official negotiating going on. They might have been 6 talking to the Camp commander or... 7 Q: Do you recall whether or not after 8 the election in 1993, that a letter came from the 9 Minister of Indian Affairs identifying an area two 10 hundred (200) metres by two hundred (200) metres, that 11 the occupiers should use up on the -- on the Aazhoodena 12 lands? 13 A: No, I can't. 14 Q: So you don't recall that? 15 A: Can't recall that. 16 Q: You moved back to Kettle Point, I 17 take it, when you left the Aazhoodena lands? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And you remained on Council 20 throughout 1993? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you recall at that time that your 23 legal Counsel was Russell Rakes (phonetic)? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall that there was further
2031 effort between the Chief and Council at Kettle Point 2 through Russell Rakes and the organized group at 3 Aazhoodena, again to try to come together with a working 4 relationship, and this continued up through November, 5 1993? 6 A: Yes. I can't really remember what 7 kind of letters we sent or whatnot, but... 8 Q: But you recall that there was some 9 effort, or something started in May and it continued 10 right through almost to the end of 1993, with both sides 11 trying to get together to put a collective position 12 forward to the Federal Government? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And these relationships -- sorry, and 15 I understand further that one (1) of the positions taken 16 by Indian Affairs and Defence was that the winter would 17 take care of the problem and that the residents, the 18 people that occupied the lands without any proper 19 housing, would not last the winter. 20 Was this your understanding, also? 21 A: I don't think so. 22 Q: Oh, I see. Okay, fine. 23 A: Because there's trailers there and 24 they had wood stoves. 25 Q: So trailers and wood stoves and
2041 that's your view, they would have been able to look after 2 the residents for the winter? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: I assume so. 6 Q: When you occupy -- when you were 7 resident at Aazhoodena between May and August, did you 8 try to get a telephone at any time? 9 A: I can't remember. 10 Q: My understanding is that the 11 telephone company refused to provide telephone service to 12 the residents. Is this your recollection? 13 A: I can't remember. Probably, because 14 if they did, it would probably because it was a DND land. 15 And they'd need permission from the DND to bring in 16 another phone line. 17 Q: For whatever reason, I would move to 18 try to justify the abuse. 19 So as far as the move in 1993 is 20 concerned, would you agree with me that in the broad -- 21 in a -- in a general sense, that members of the First 22 Nations were employing self-help remedies to bring 23 attention to their concerns which persisted since 1942? 24 A: Yeah, in a non-violent way, yeah. 25
2051 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And through 1994, was there any -- 4 any progress as far as discussions with Canada through 5 Indian Affairs or DND? Was there any progress in -- for 6 the return of these lands? 7 A: No. From what I remember I don't 8 think so, no. 9 Q: So you really had nothing happening 10 until May of 1993 in regard to your occupation. Through 11 1993 there is effort of your two (2) groups to put 12 together collective position to Canada. 13 Nothing happens and now you're into 1994 14 and still nothing is happening. Fair to say? 15 A: There were things happening but they 16 weren't -- 17 Q: I'll say nothing meaningful, does 18 that help you? 19 A: No, they were meaningful. It's just 20 that they weren't moving as fast. 21 Q: Okay fine. Perhaps you can tell us 22 what was happening that was meaningful then? 23 A: We were trying to put together a 24 negotiating team made of members from -- from who stayed 25 at Stoney Point and plus members who were Kettle Point.
2061 It was kind of a big committee but it didn't work very 2 good because it was too big. 3 Q: An effort to put together a 4 negotiating team to present to a front to Canada? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Yeah. And now we move into -- okay - 7 - getting back to the time when you were on the -- the 8 lands in 1993. 9 Around the time of building that church 10 there's evidence that it was intended really to be a 11 meeting hall and somebody suggested to put a steeple on 12 it so that it would not be attacked or not be pushed over 13 by the military or anybody else. 14 A: No. No. Some of the people wanted 15 to have a church there too, because I remember that. 16 Q: So some wanted a church and others 17 wanted a meeting hall -- 18 A: It was supposed to be used as both. 19 Q: I see -- it became combined together. 20 A: Like -- like a parish hall. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: They have meetings in there and 23 church services. 24 Q: Now you indicated, too, in your 25 evidence that the reason why you left in August of 1993
2071 is that it was turning pushy and violent. 2 A: Uncomfortable for me. 3 Q: Well, no I just -- I don't want to 4 walk away from pushy and violent yet because those were 5 your words and I made a note of it. Do you want to 6 change it from pushy and violent to merely uncomfortable? 7 A: Pushy. 8 Q: Okay. It will become pushy. But 9 you'll -- you'll drop this idea. It was not violent was 10 it? 11 A: Some of the guys started riding 12 around real fast in cars in the back area. Riding up to 13 jeeps, army jeeps. I don't what you call that. We'll 14 call it pushy if you wish. 15 Q: It's not for me, sir. I have my own 16 words. Tell me yours. 17 A: I'd say they ere getting pretty 18 pushy. 19 Q: I see and you wanted them to be nice 20 people and do what? What do you want -- how did you -- 21 what did you want expect of them? 22 A: I wasn't the leader. I didn't have 23 no expectation and what to do I just follow them. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: What I was told.
2081 Q: I accept that. But even as a non- 2 leader you didn't want them to be pushy? 3 A: It wasn't -- myself I didn't -- I 4 didn't think it was right so I moved out. 5 Q: I see. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: But your recollection is that through 10 1993 into 1994 that there was this collective effort 11 between both sides to put together a positive position to 12 Canada. A joint position? 13 A: Yes. Tried it several times. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: Yes, we did. 16 Q: Yes. But I'm asking about the time I 17 -- I understand it was so in 1993 and I want to confirm 18 that that went through 1994? 19 A: I can't remember. You're asking me 20 things that happened quite a while ago with all kind of - 21 - it's complicated. I'd have to have minutes here to go 22 through from '93. 23 Q: I see. 24 A: You have all the minutes, I guess, in 25 your book but I don't, so...
2091 Q: You see I'll tell you why I'm asking 2 that and perhaps you can help me. I'm becoming a little 3 confused. I believe the record would indicate self-held 4 perimeters in May of 1993, a joint effort through 1993 to 5 present a collective position to Canada. This goes 6 through up to and including your involvement with legal 7 counsel in November of 1993 and it goes into 1994 8 according to your evidence. 9 And then, as I look back at my notes, one 10 (1) of the reasons you said that you were leaving and you 11 left in August of 1993, you were concerned that others 12 were supporting the separatist notion. Do you recall 13 saying that? 14 A: Yes, it started turning into a 15 separatist -- 16 Q: Yeah, well, the problem I'm having 17 with that is, if there's a separatist notion, how are the 18 leaders working collectively toward a -- a consistent 19 position with Canada? That's what I'm having trouble -- 20 A: Trying to return the lands back. We 21 weren't working towards a -- working on the separatist 22 notion. It was to get the lands back. 23 Q: I see. Now, you indicated that you 24 did not participate in the Burying of the Hatchet 25 ceremony. As a matter of fact, I dare say that you
2101 frowned on it as not being an Anishnaabek practice. Am I 2 correct so far? 3 A: I really didn't frown on it, I just 4 didn't want to take part in it. 5 Q: Yeah, but you'd agree with me that 6 the concept behind it -- no more violence was a worthy 7 concept deserving of substantial merit? 8 A: If they really meant it, I guess. 9 Q: I see and have you got any reason 10 today to say that when Cliff George and all those others 11 went through this Burying of the Hatchet ceremony, that 12 they did not mean it? 13 A: I'm not going to get into that, 14 sorry. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner? 16 It's -- it's an engaging line of questioning, but 17 obviously he's just been asked to speculate on the state 18 of mind of others, a period of some thirteen (13) years 19 ago. He couldn't know it today and he couldn't have 20 known it then. It's not a proper question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 22 think you can ask a question in a way that can elicit a 23 response. 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 was really following up on what he said.
2111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: He said, If they 3 really meant it -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 7 Q: So, anyway, I'll depart from that 8 because much is not going to turn on it. 9 I take it, sir, that you would agree with 10 me that as of today, you have no reason to believe that 11 it was not a genuine effort to -- to -- to engage -- to 12 depart totally from violence? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Are -- are you saying that as 15 councillor or is that your personal position? 16 A: I'm saying it as a band member of 17 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, recognizing, Mr. George, that 23 having gone through 1993 and 1994 without any -- any -- 24 any meaningful progress, I take it that you were not 25 particularly surprised that the barracks were occupied,
2121 were you? I'm not talking about the Park, just the 2 barracks? 3 A: I don't know, I didn't know they were 4 going to do that. 5 Q: Oh, I know that you didn't know that, 6 but I'm saying to you, here is an occupation in 1993 7 employing self-held perimeters to bring attraction to 8 your cause. It served a bit of a purpose, but didn't 9 accomplish the end result. 10 The next step is to deal more effectively 11 with the barracks, which is what happened in July of 1995 12 and I'm asking you, did you find it really surprising 13 that that step was taken? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: I see. And you would not have 16 supported that step, would you? 17 A: Probably not. 18 Q: And after it happened, you took it 19 upon yourself to write this letter which appears under 20 Tab 6. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Exhibit 73. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: You've got Tab 6? 25 A: Yeah.
2131 Q: That one, the letter to the editor? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And that was -- it appeared in the -- 4 the August the 30 -- the 30th, 1995 newspaper? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Help me with a couple of 7 things with this. It's covered in three (3) columns. In 8 Column 1, it reads: 9 "I am glad that these Army Camp Indians 10 call themselves separate from my First 11 Nation because I would not want any of 12 my fellow Band members to act like 13 animals and give my home a bad name." 14 Your words? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Your penmanship? 17 A: I used a typewriter, yes. 18 Q: You use a typewriter, okay, fine. 19 Your typewriter-ship? That's better? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now tell me what you meant by that, 22 about this behaving like animals and giving your home a 23 bad name. 24 A: Exactly what it says. 25 Q: Pardon me?
2141 A: It says -- that's what it says. 2 Q: So I take it, sir, that you're saying 3 that all First Nations people must behave to a certain 4 level otherwise the whole First Nation territory is going 5 to be classified? 6 A: I'm not going to answer that. I 7 don't know how to answer that. 8 Q: Fine. I'll take it again. If you 9 have a guy like a mass murderer from British Columbia, 10 who happens to be white, you think it's correct to judge 11 all white people on his behaviour? 12 A: White guy? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: No. 15 Q: Well, why would you want to judge -- 16 have to submit to having some community judge your entire 17 First Nation on the acts of some people, because you 18 don't agree with them? 19 A: Well, I'll just say again, I 20 shouldn't have wrote that letter. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: That's all I'm going to say. 23 Q: Let's go even further. Over in 24 Column 3, you read: 25 "When the Army Camp pulled out of Camp
2151 Ipperwash, the actions that followed 2 reminded me of the LA riots." 3 What do you mean by that? 4 A: I mean by all the equipment that was 5 leaving the base. 6 Q: But how could that remind you of the 7 LA riots? 8 A: People taking things. 9 Q: People taking things. Now what 10 happened in the LA riots? Were you there? 11 A: I'm not going to talk about the LA 12 riots, sorry. 13 Q: So you've got it in your -- your -- 14 you've got it in your article, I see -- 15 A: All I'm going to say is I wish I 16 never wrote that. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: I wish I never wrote that and that's 19 all I'm going to say about the whole column. 20 Q: So you're really apologized for that 21 and would like to withdraw it; am I correct? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Or am I wrong?
2161 A: Partially. 2 Q: But tell me where I'm right? Tell me 3 where I'm wrong. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Would it help you, sir, if I walk you 8 through this article line by line and ask you which ones 9 you want to preserve or which ones you want to withdraw-- 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, 11 this is becoming harassment. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 13 think it is, Mr. Henderson. I don't agree with you. 14 Would you like to make an objection? At the moment I 15 haven't seen anything to object to. 16 He hasn't answered the last question. 17 I'll give him as much time as he needs to answer it, but 18 he hasn't answered it. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, sir, he's 20 already indicated that he's sorry he wrote the article. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He was asked 22 a specific question. He didn't answer it. What parts -- 23 I don't remember exactly what the wording was, but to the 24 extent that he can, the Witness could try to answer the 25 question.
2171 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, perhaps Mr. 2 Ross could re-state it for him. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: If the Witness 5 can answer it, then he can answer it. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 I would give him as much time as he needs to answer it, 8 but he hasn't answered it. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 11 like to rephrase the question or ask it again? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think the 13 question was, as Mr. Henderson said, that the Witness 14 said that he regrets having written the letter, wished he 15 hadn't written the letter. 16 And then Mr. Ross asked him a question, 17 what -- are you going to withdraw the letter, would you 18 withdraw the letter? Words to that effect, and -- and 19 Mr. George said, Parts of it. 20 And then the question -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He asked him 22 what parts. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- was just asked was 24 what parts? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's
2181 right. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The last question 3 that was asked was where am I right and where am I wrong? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay, 5 so he hasn't answered it. Did you want to wait for an 6 answer or do you want to move on? 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 9 Q: Mr. George, perhaps I'll ask again, 10 simple. This letter which you wrote to the editor it was 11 published on the 30th of August 1995. 12 You indicated that Chief Bressette did not 13 approve of this; am I correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I am saying to you now, sir, would 16 you like to withdraw that letter in full? 17 A: If I could, I would because I -- when 18 I wrote it I wasn't thinking and I insulted my relatives 19 with that letter. 20 Q: Did your relatives also live in LA or 21 were you insulting more than your relatives? 22 A: We're getting past Kettle and Stony 23 Point now, I'm just going to say I would like to withdraw 24 that letter if I could. 25 Q: Pardon me?
2191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 2 would withdraw the letter if he could. I think you said 3 that, didn't you? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 6 would withdraw the letter if he could. 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 11 Q: Now tell me something. People from 12 other First Nations, did they visit Kettle Point from 13 time to time? 14 A: Yeah, they visit. 15 Q: And were they welcome when they 16 visited? 17 A: Yes, they were. 18 Q: Did they have to make a special call 19 ahead of time and ask for permission or did they just 20 drop in in the usual Anishnaabek way and just expect a 21 welcome. 22 A: They just came and visited whenever 23 they wanted. But if they stayed, they're going to stay, 24 they would have to send a letter to Council ask for 25 permission.
2201 Q: Yeah. So that when people visited at 2 the Army Camp it was no different than visitors going to 3 Kettle Point. 4 Am I correct with that? 5 A: I don't -- probably not because 6 Kettle Point if they -- they can come and go as they wish 7 but if they stayed there they'd have to -- to get an 8 application to reside from the Kettle and Stony Point 9 Council and there's rules there. 10 They weren't supposed to be like doing 11 illegal activities and things like that. And they'd have 12 to pay a certain amount. Yes, they can go in and out of 13 Stoney Point and visit and stuff but I don't know -- 14 Q: But -- but, Mr. George, you would 15 agree with me that it was not the Chief and Council from 16 Kettle Point which went and did this occupation and draw 17 the attention of the whole country on the Aazhoodena 18 lands. 19 Why should the Chief and Council of Kettle 20 Point have the overriding decision as who should come 21 there and who should not -- didn't even support it? 22 A: I -- I just said that -- that -- 23 CHAIRMAN SIDNEY LINDEN: Now -- now Mr. 24 Henderson has a -- an objection. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: My Friend is,
2211 with great respect, being unduly argumentative. He asked 2 why is this different than what happens at Kettle Point. 3 The Witness answered this is how it's done at Kettle 4 Point. It has nothing to do -- 5 THE WITNESS: With Stoney Point. 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: He answered 7 completely, logically the sequence that he is asked. Now 8 he's being asked to explain why Chief and Council or how 9 that's relevant because Chief and Council weren't 10 supporting the occupation. 11 This is -- it's breaking down any rational 12 flow and merely arguing with the Witness. If he gives a 13 proper answer, My Friend wants to know why that doesn't 14 explain something else. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do -- do you 16 have some comment, Mr. Millar? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I agree with Mr. 18 Henderson. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do as 20 well. I think -- 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think it's 22 unanimous, Commissioner. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 25 Q: Would you agree with me, Mr. George,
2221 that prior to 1993 MNR did not have a lot of time for any 2 of the concerns of the Band with respect to the Park? 3 A: I have no idea. 4 Q: I see. But we know that after 1993 5 when you went onto the lands number 1, there's 6 opportunity where Mr. -- and I turn under Tab 1 where 7 there's an e-mail to Les Kobayashi -- or well that's -- 8 oh, I'm sorry, that predates the occupation. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: February '93. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: February '93, yeah. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 13 Q: In your statement it says that -- and 14 I just read this: 15 "The Minister of Natural Resources 16 staff and campers at the Park had been 17 harassed by occupiers of the camp." 18 Do you recall that as -- as a position 19 taken by MNR? 20 A: When was that? 21 Q: In 1995. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: There were some reports. 25 Q: Yeah. Now, let's talk about the
2231 campers for a minute. 2 Did the campers have a right to occupy the 3 Park and use the Park? 4 A: I guess they did. The -- the 5 Province -- the Province bought it off the Federal 6 Government and made a park there. 7 Q: Well, make up your mind. Number 1, 8 is it going to be for the Province or is it part of your 9 Aazhoodena lands? 10 A: It was part of the province. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: Because the Province bought it. 13 Q: So -- so, the campers had a right to 14 occupy the lands? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you'd agree with me that it was 17 not an exclusive right, that there was nothing at all to 18 stop members of your First Nation from also going to the 19 Park? 20 A: That's a touchy question. Because 21 the Province owned it, they -- they charge entry fees and 22 fees to camp overnight. 23 Q: But there's nothing to stop any 24 member of a First Nation paying the fees and camping 25 overnight.
2241 A: You mean First Nations could camp 2 free at provincial parks? 3 Q: No, no. I'm just talking about the 4 same right of occupation of the campers. I'm suggesting 5 to you that it was not exclusive, that they can camp 6 there and First Nations people can camp there under the 7 same circumstances. 8 Am I not correct with that? 9 A: I -- I guess so, if -- if you mean 10 that everybody's paying their camping fees, then -- 11 Q: Fine, however they get in. So, that 12 when they get in there, there's a confrontation between 13 First Nations people and other campers, really it's a 14 matter for law enforcement. It is not a matter for Chief 15 and Council of your First Nation. 16 Am I correct with that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Tell me please, Mr. George, did you 19 have a chance to read this entire book of documents 20 before you came to give evidence? 21 A: I was mostly breezing through these - 22 - the letters that I wrote and some of the police 23 statements -- police notes. 24 Q: So you didn't really read it in any 25 detail?
2251 A: I went through most of it, but -- 2 Q: Yeah, okay -- well, okay. Let's look 3 at the document under Tab 4. 4 Did you go through that document in 5 detail? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's Exhibit P-43. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, the General Band 8 Meeting? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Inquiry Document 10 Number 3000374. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 12 referring to the minutes of the General Band Meeting? 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes. Yes, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Did you go through that document in 18 detail before coming here to give evidence? 19 A: No. 20 Q: I see. So I take it if we look at 21 page Number 18 -- 22 A: Eighteen (18). 23 Q: -- there's around eight (8) lines 24 attributed to you. These eight (8) lines attributed to 25 you started by saying:
2261 "I support everything Tom and Carl have 2 said." 3 Would it be fair to say that at this 4 stage, because you didn't go through these minutes in 5 preparation for your testimony, you wouldn't be able to 6 tell us -- you wouldn't be able to capitalize what you 7 understood Tom and Carl have said? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: But at the same time, as we turn over 10 -- as -- as we look at -- look through the document, 11 you're saying here now: 12 "As a Band member, I went down there to 13 assess those buildings, because the 14 Army said they were going to leave 15 those buildings for us." 16 Who is the "us" at that point? 17 A: The Kettle and Stony Point Band. 18 Q: I see. So when they gave over the 19 keys to the occupiers, you're of the view that they gave 20 the keys -- they gave the keys to the occupiers on behalf 21 of the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 22 A: No. 23 Q: I see. And here you speak about a 24 woman who had applied for a job with your school and that 25 she was swearing.
2271 Do you have that, on the second last line? 2 A: Yeah, she was mad at me. 3 Q: Yes. And she was rude and she was 4 swearing. 5 And you take issue with that? 6 A: No, I just left the camp. 7 Q: Oh, yeah, but as far as the media 8 coming back and at a Council meeting you're reporting 9 that this woman was swearing. 10 I mean, you classify that as pretty bad, 11 did you? 12 A: I thought it was pretty bad to be 13 doing that, yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. But what about -- didn't you 15 have your own swearing situations with -- with Stewart 16 George and with the police? 17 A: That's because I got -- that's 18 because I got assaulted. 19 Q: I see. So when you are provoked, you 20 swear, but she shouldn't. 21 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well -- 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't punch her. 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Withdrawn, withdrawn. 24 Sorry, sorry. 25 THE WITNESS: You're good, man.
2281 2 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 3 Q: Now you go over page, go over page. 4 The top of the page. You say: 5 "I was going down there myself, but we 6 all have to go down together. If you 7 want to go down there, Barb, I will 8 take a chainsaw and cut down that 9 gate." 10 That's what you intended to do? 11 A: Just heat of the moment. 12 Q: I see. 13 A: No, I didn't intend to do that. 14 Q: Okay, fine. 15 A: So you really did not intend to go 16 using a chainsaw? 17 A: No. No, the gate's mostly steel. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now there's one (1) other thing that 22 I find a little -- a bit confusing and perhaps you can 23 help me through this. As I look at your complaint to the 24 police after the incident with Stewart -- 25 A: What tab is that?
2291 Q: On the Tab 8. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, Tab 7. 3 THE WITNESS: Seven (7)? Seven (7)? 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, there's something 5 under Tab 8. There's a typewritten document. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's not his 7 document. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 10 Q: That is true, but I'm not dealing 11 just with your documents, Mr. George, I'm dealing with 12 the question of your complaint. 13 Did you notice that under Tab 8, the 14 typewritten document relating to the complaint -- you've 15 got it? 16 A: Yeah, just a short one? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: The time is there given at 17:51 20 which appears to be -- sorry, 19:51 which appears to be 21 7:51 p.m. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Right. That's just before eight 24 o'clock. You could not have been giving that statement 25 at just before eight o'clock, could you?
2301 A: I don't know. Maybe they had it down 2 wrong. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: They had -- 5 Q: They had it wrong. That's what I'm 6 getting at. I'm going to go through -- 7 A: Not sure. 8 Q: -- these. And then over under Tab 9, 9 the handwritten statement, it said the time interview is 10 8:27. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, the time 12 interview -- 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Sorry. Well, sorry. 14 10:27. 15 THE WITNESS: This says 19:56. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On page -- on Exhibit 17 P-123, it says time interview commenced 19:56. Time 18 interview concluded, 20:27, which is 8:27 not 10:27. 19 THE WITNESS: You're pretty well right. 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 8:27. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So it started at 7:56 22 and ended at 8:27, according to that document. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 25 Q: And then under Tab 10, this person
2311 Zacher, Z-A-C-H-E-R, is saying: 2 "I believe the incident occurred after 3 10:00 p.m." 4 So that's wrong? 5 A: I -- 6 Q: Correct? 7 A: Yeah, I read that and I kind of 8 noticed that. 9 Q: You noticed that? Okay, fine. Now, 10 Mr. George, the date of that incident with Stewart 11 George. As I go through the evidence I want to tell you 12 what I understand and you can correct me if I'm wrong. 13 It happened on the 6th of September, 1995, 14 correct? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Yeah. You had gone over to Cecil 17 Bernard George's residence. 18 A: A couple of times, yeah. 19 Q: And you left and that's when you met 20 with Stuart George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Around that time, Cecil Bernard 23 George left, and according to his evidence he had gone to 24 the Park and he claims that he had seen you speaking with 25 Stewart.
2321 Did you see Cecil Bernard George when you 2 were there -- when you were with Stewart George? 3 A: Seen me speaking with -- no. 4 Q: No, did you see him? 5 A: I -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 7 getting some objections. I think a recollection may be 8 different in yours. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I don't think 10 that was the evidence of Mr. Cecil Bernard George that 11 Cecil Bernard George saw -- I may be wrong, but I -- I do 12 not recall Cecil Bernard George saying that he saw Mr. 13 Gerald George speaking to the -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 15 any -- 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Sorry, sorry, my 17 apologies, Mr. Commissioner. He saw him talking to the 18 police, not to Stewart. My apologies. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Carry 20 on. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't think he said 22 that, either. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you 24 have the transcript there. I don't have the transcript 25 in front of me.
2331 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, I think we have 2 the transcript. 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, if 4 you want to take a break, we can look it up but -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you -- 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- you'll recall 7 Mr. Bernard George's evidence is that he came along the 8 beach -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 10 remember that. 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- Park from the 12 beach, he couldn't possibly have seen -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 14 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- his cousin 15 talking to the police further up Army Camp Road from 16 there. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can somebody 18 put their hands on it? I see Ms. Jones, you have that 19 portion of the transcript? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I can, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't
2341 recall Cecil saying -- Cecil Bernard George saying that 2 he witnessed the incident between Stewart and Gerald. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. He didn't -- 4 the evidence of Mr. George -- Cecil Bernard George was 5 not that he witnessed the incident. He never said that, 6 but My Friends have thought, and I don't have the date, 7 and who was examining on this particular page, but there 8 is a reference, it... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. And Ms. 13 Jones has the date. It was December 6th, 2004. Pages 14 205 to 209 and there is a reference that Mr. Cecil 15 Bernard George observed Gerald George was parked along 16 the road talking to one (1) or two (2) more of the 17 officers that around by the campground there near the 18 trailer park -- yes. 19 So that the evidence of Cecil Bernard 20 George was that he saw Gerald George on Army Camp Road 21 talking to police officers. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Police 23 Officers. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But not Stewart 25 George.
2351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross has 2 corrected that already. Okay, carry on with your 3 question. 4 If we take a break now, it's five (5) 5 after 3:00. We're not going to -- we might as well not 6 come back because it's -- we're quitting at 3:30. So 7 let's just carry on. I don't think we should take an 8 afternoon break. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I simply meant -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know. 11 I know what you meant, to look it up. But we don't need 12 to now. So let's just carry on. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 15 Q: Now, Mr. George, this incident 16 occurred with yourself and Stewart. You have given a 17 number of statements to different people in authority, 18 all related to that incident with Stewart, correct? 19 A: Yes. Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. And in the handwritten 21 statement, page 1 to 3, there is no mention of -- of 22 being punched. That's under Tab Number 9. 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And on the Tab 10, where this guy
2361 Zacher is speaking, he relates your incident and he makes 2 no reference to your being punched. He says here: 3 "A male Native named Gerald George 4 approached our checkpoint in the 5 vehicle, a blue Pontiac. He was alone 6 in the vehicle and he had just come 7 from the intersection of Parkside Drive 8 and Army Camp Road. He advised us that 9 his vehicle was struck by a thrown rock 10 by a Native in the overflow parking 11 area." 12 So you didn't tell Zacher that you were 13 punched? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: And, under Tab 16, is it fair to say 16 that you didn't tell them that you were punched because 17 they didn't ask you? 18 A: No, I didn't. I didn't bother 19 telling them. 20 Q: But they didn't ask you? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And if they asked you would have told 23 them? 24 A: I would have told them. 25 Q: Yeah. So, under Tab Number 16,
2371 you're being interviewed by the SIU. 2 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 3 Q: And on page 2, Kennedy asked you, 4 Were you ever struck by Stewart George and your answer 5 is, "Uh no." That's your -- that was your statement? 6 A: Yeah. But I thought you were 7 referring to the officer that night if he asked me if I 8 was punched. And I told him no. 9 Q: Yes, Mr. George, I understand that 10 but for want of better terms, I said to you, If I asked 11 you clearly, had he asked, would you have answered him 12 correctly and you said, Yes. So now I take it was a 13 situation you'd been asked and you said no. 14 A: I would still say no. 15 Q: So you want to withdraw that no now 16 also? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. Quite 18 the contrary. He said he would say no. He's confirming. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend, perhaps 20 should ask the Witness. Mr. George and his evidence in- 21 chief explained why he didn't tell the police officers 22 about being punched by Mr. Stewart George. 23 And perhaps My Friend can ask him about 24 that explanation. The explanation was that he didn't 25 want to give the police anything to -- any cause to do
2381 anything with respect to Mr. Stewart George. That was 2 what his evidence was. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 4 note the point of Mr. Millar. However, I think my point 5 is clear that when specifically asked whether or not he 6 was struck by Stewart George and this is substantially 7 after the fact. This is an interview on the 8th of 8 January 1996. Specifically asked, Were you ever struck 9 by Stewart George, the answer is, "Uh, no." 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: And he goes onto explain and then you 13 go on to explain, Mr. George, Kennedy says, 14 "Can you tell me what the atmosphere 15 was like at that time? While he was 16 there half an hour prior." 17 The answer is, 18 "Oh, he was just there with some of his 19 relatives and he was intoxicated 20 because I could smell his breath and I 21 know how he looks when he was -- he's 22 drunk. But he was drunk. I just told 23 them that they shouldn't be doing that. 24 They're just causing more trouble. 25 Shouldn't have went into the Park but -
2391 - so, they weren't listening. 2 I didn't want to have to get out and 3 defend myself so I tried to pull away 4 and that's when he threw the rock." 5 Again, you're enforcing the fact that he 6 did not strike you. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, Mr. George, when you -- you were 9 stopped by the police on -- on three (3) occasions, on 10 the 6th of September, 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you also went to visit them and 13 you found that there was a -- an atmosphere of tension. 14 There was a tense environment. Am I correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah. Now in a tense environment if 17 the police asked you about guns and you know there are no 18 guns, isn't it easier just to say, no, rather than to 19 give them an explanation about what they might have and 20 what they might not have? 21 A: Might have been. 22 Q: Yeah. And if the police were really 23 looking for opportunity to escalate this situation 24 wouldn't you agree that if you had just said, No, there 25 are no guns, the police would have one (1) impression as
2401 opposed to, they've got hunting guns? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: I see. Now, Mr. George, as a 4 Councillor, I take it you are not at -- the police just 5 does not have a right to just stop and search anybody at 6 will. You -- you know that, don't you? 7 A: They shouldn't have. They -- they 8 should always have an excuse. 9 Q: Is there any reason why you didn't 10 protest any of these searches? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You just allowed them to do what they 13 want? 14 A: Well, they just -- they said, We have 15 to search your vehicle. 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: They said, We have to search your 18 vehicle, so I said, Fine. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: What do you want me to do? Drive 21 away? Get pulled over? 22 Q: Now, as far as your vehicle is 23 concerned, I understand that the damage to the vehicle 24 was repaired for three hundred and fifty dollars ($350). 25 Does that sound right?
2411 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: I see. You can't remember anything 3 about it so if I -- if I'd said thirty-five hundred 4 (3,500), you still wouldn't remember? 5 A: I -- I don't think nobody charges 6 thirty-five hundred bucks ($3,500) to repair a dent. 7 Q: Yeah, so, it was small dent? 8 Correct? 9 A: No. 10 Q: I see. Now, on these occasions -- on 11 the 6th of September you spent a lot of time with Bernard 12 George, didn't you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: He was a councillor? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you were a councillor? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you also spent a lot of time with 19 the chief? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Were the two (2) councillors and the 22 chief recognizing that this situation is getting out of 23 hand, is there anything that you thought you could have 24 done -- a phone call to some place, call the police, call 25 somebody?
2421 A: I didn't think calling the police 2 would do any good because they're the ones who's doing 3 the buildup. 4 Q: Yeah, but I mean what about calling 5 superiors? 6 A: That's why I was going to take Tom 7 down there to show him what was going on and then he 8 could come back. 9 Q: I see. Now, you indicated that when 10 you attended -- you first attended the Park on September 11 the 5th and then you drove down to observe police 12 activity and why -- you indicated to -- to Mr. Millar 13 that you wanted to see the type of guns that the police 14 had. 15 Now this is the 5th of September, why 16 would you be interested in that? 17 A: I just wanted to see if they had any 18 long guns out, but they just had sidearms. 19 Q: I see. Now, on the night of the 6th 20 of September, when you were driving around, when you were 21 with Deanna Bressette, when Jeremiah came up -- ran up in 22 -- into where you were -- do you recall that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You said -- 25 A: Barely.
2431 Q: -- you were mad that nobody took 2 control down there. What did you mean by that? 3 A: I'd just gone off what Jeremiah told 4 me. He said all the people were running around and there 5 was a -- some guys out front and they really didn't know 6 what they were doing and that the cops were -- cops were 7 attacking them and nobody really knew what to do down 8 there. 9 Q: Well, what -- what I can't understand 10 is how could anybody take control in that environment? 11 A: Well, before that. 12 Q: I see. Now, apparently Peter Cloud 13 had been sort of monitoring police activity -- it was by 14 means of a scanner. 15 A: He was listening to one when I went 16 there. 17 Q: Yeah. Did anybody tape record 18 anything that was coming over the scanner? 19 A: No, I don't think so. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, Mr. George, the logging tapes of 24 the police, which you have read, suggest that somebody 25 had spoken to them and given them information about the
2441 number of weapons purportedly with the occupants of the 2 Park. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: You agree with me that so far? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Yeah. Now, if the information in the 7 logging records is true, that somebody had told them 8 about all these weapons, I take it your view is that it 9 was not you. 10 A: It wasn't me but I referred to 11 hunting rifles, shotguns, things like that, but not to -- 12 Q: Well, Mr. George, you know exactly 13 what weapons I'm talking about. I am talking about these 14 -- the Ruger Mini-14, the Russian SKS, et cetera. 15 And I'm asking you, I'm saying, if in fact 16 somebody did say these -- tell -- if somebody did tell 17 Mark Dew that those weapons were in the Camp, it wasn't 18 you. 19 A: It wasn't me. 20 Q: Okay, fine. 21 A: Because there was the other -- when 22 he was talking on the radio when Tab 21, he calls him 23 SKFs. 24 Q: Whatever they are. Whatever they 25 are. But, it wasn't you?
2451 A: No. He doesn't mention about the 2 anti-tank rockets. 3 Q: Well, no, whatever. I'm not going to 4 isolate the weapons. I am just looking at the concept. 5 You see if I was a police officer and somebody gave me an 6 impression that there's a lot of weapons in an area, I'd 7 be concerned. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I'm saying to you, if anybody 10 gave Mark Dew information about upon which he could 11 reasonably conclude that there was substantial weapons -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 13 answered your question two (2) or three (3) times. Said 14 it wasn't him. He's qualified it by -- well, he doesn't 15 have to. He did not give them that information. I think 16 that's what you said, isn't it? 17 THE WITNESS: A couple of times. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 21 Q: Now, do you know a guy by the name of 22 Jonathon Wolfe? 23 A: John Wolfe? Jon-jon (phonetic), 24 yeah. 25 Q: I have no idea what Jon-jon is.
2461 Jonathon Wolfe. I suggest that around the time that you 2 would pick up these loons, you might have been with 3 Jonathon Wolfe. Would that make sense to you? 4 A: Jonathon and Pete Wolfe were along 5 the beach. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: They -- they were on the beach when I 8 got there -- 9 Q: Oh yes? 10 A: They had their own car. 11 Q: I see. So you were there and 12 Jonathon was there around the time of picking up the 13 loons? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you were approached by Roderick 16 George and there were two (2) other people with him? 17 A: No, just Roderick. The other people 18 were in the truck. 19 Q: They were in the truck, yes. Did you 20 know one (1) of them to be John Lewis (phonetic)? 21 A: I don't know who that is. 22 Q: Did you know one (1) of them to be 23 Bob Thompson? 24 A: I don't know who that is. 25 Q: I see. And how close -- how close
2471 were you to the truck -- 2 A: Which -- 3 Q: -- when you were speaking to Roderick 4 George? 5 A: Which truck? 6 Q: You told me that the other two (2) -- 7 that there was Roderick George and there were two (2) 8 people in his truck. 9 A: Oh, he parked the truck a ways away. 10 Maybe about forty (40) feet. 11 Q: So he was not close to you? That you 12 weren't close to his truck? 13 A: His -- his truck wasn't close to me. 14 Q: I see. Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Finally, Mr. George, if this matter 19 with the lands are going to be resolved. 20 Would you agree with me that it will be 21 necessary to have representation from the residents of 22 Aazhoodena at the table in order to get a full and 23 complete resolution of this outstanding matter? 24 A: I think everybody should work 25 together on that. All Band membership, including anyone
2481 who is living down there. It has to start somewhere. 2 Q: But the residents of Aazhoodena -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- should definitely not be excluded. 5 Am I correct with that? 6 A: Well, I already answered your 7 question. I said everybody should be involved, even the 8 people living down there. 9 Q: Mr. George, would you agree with me 10 that the unfortunate death of Dudley George was a major 11 event in moving forward discussions and negotiations with 12 the Federal Government? 13 A: I'd have to say yes. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. George. 15 Mr. Commissioner, thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 17 Mr. Ross. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's 3:18, 19 Commissioner. The next person to examine is the Ontario 20 Provincial Police. I don't know if -- Ms. Tuck-Jackson -- 21 I don't suppose she wants to start with only ten (10) 22 minutes left. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, for the 24 record, she doesn't. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, I suggest that as
2491 we only have to -- to 3:30, Mr. George has to be 2 somewhere by 4:00, that we adjourn today until Monday at 3 10:30. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 I think we've had enough for today. So we will adjourn 6 now, until Monday morning at 10:30. Thank you very much. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And on Monday we'll 8 run as usual, from 10:30 to 5:00. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Let's 10 hope that there are no snowstorms. 11 12 (WITNESS RETIRES) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 15 Mr. George, for coming today and we'll see you on Monday. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 17 adjourned until Monday, January the 17th at 10:30 a.m. 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 3:22 p.m. 20 21 22 23 24 25
2501 2 3 Certified Correct 4 5 6 7 8 __________________________ 9 Wendy Warnock 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25