11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 12th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 Megan MacKey ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 JAMES THOMAS COUSINS, Sworn: 7 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 8 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 94 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 108 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 128 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 148 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 150 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 162 14 15 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, SWORN: 16 17 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 170 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 207 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-115 Document No. 2002436 Page 35 4 Schematic Diagram of Camp Ipperwash 5 Military Barracks Marked by 6 Witness James Cousins Jan 12/05 15 7 8 P-116 Document No. 1002409 Map of Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park and Area "Welcome to 10 Ipperwash!" Marked by Witness 11 James Cousins Jan 12/05 18 12 13 P-117 Document No. 1002409, Page 13, Map of 14 Ipperwash Army Camp (Ipperwash Military 15 Reserve) Marked by Witness 16 James Cousins Jan 12/05 24 17 18 P-118 "Stan" Thompson Drawing, Sept 20/95, 19 Marked by Witness 20 James Cousins Jan 12/05 30 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:34 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 Thank you very much. I'm sorry I've held everybody up. 8 We're an hour late, at least an hour, an hour and five 9 (5) minutes. We hit a real bad patch between Guelph and 10 Kitchener. It was just like a sheet of ice. Just 11 couldn't move, so, I apologize to everybody for being 12 late. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 14 Commissioner. I just wanted to advise everyone as to 15 the order of the witnesses and also Mr. O'Marra is not 16 here and we're trying to find out where he is. But I 17 suggest that we start. We won't get to cross- 18 examination for a while in any event. 19 The -- for the benefit of everyone, the 20 first witness today will be Mr. Cousins. We will then, 21 when Mr. Cousins is done, go to Mr. Gerald George. We 22 will then go to Mr. Nicholas Cotrelle and realistically 23 it would seem to me that Mr. Cotrelle probably won't be 24 reached until Monday. But if something happens and we 25 can reach him tomorrow, then we would -- we would do
81 that. 2 We would then, after Mr. Cotrelle will be 3 Ms. Tina George followed by Gina George, followed by 4 Harley George, followed by Glenn George and then Carolyn 5 George. For the time being, due to his health, we won't 6 be calling Mr. Pierre George, but that list will take us 7 into early February. Thank you, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Katherine Hensel is going to be leading this 10 witness. 11 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. Cousins is 12 here if he'd like to... 13 14 JAMES THOMAS COUSINS, Sworn: 15 16 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cousins. 18 A: Good morning. 19 Q: I'm going to begin by asking you a 20 few questions about your personal background. Your date 21 of birth is October 19th, 1980? 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: And what was your mother's name? 24 A: Marianne (phonetic) Cousins. 25 Q: And your father?
91 A: Kenneth Perry Shawkence. 2 Q: And I understand that you also have 3 a stepfather? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what is his name? 6 A: Anthony Kevin George. 7 Q: How many siblings do you have, Mr. 8 Cousins? 9 A: I have three (3) brothers and one 10 (1) sister. 11 Q: And what are their names? 12 A: Tony, Josh, and Dalton, and my 13 sister, Nikki. 14 Q: Okay. Can you tell me the name of 15 your grandparents on your Mother's side? 16 A: My grandmother is Joyce Cousins and 17 my grandfather is Beverley Cousins. 18 Q: And on your father's side? 19 A: My grandmother is Berna Shawkence 20 and my grandfather is Charles Shawkence. 21 Q: I understand that in 1995 you also 22 went by the name James Thomas George? 23 A: Yes, I have. 24 Q: And in September 1995, you had 25 completed Grade 9?
101 A: Yes. 2 Q: And where did you complete Grade 9? 3 A: Excuse, what was the question? 4 Q: What school did you go to? 5 A: Alexander MacKenzie. 6 Q: And where was that? 7 A: In Sarnia. 8 Q: Thank you. I also understand that 9 you had a great-grandmother on your father's side by the 10 name of Rachel Shawkence? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that she was from Stoney Point? 13 A: Yes, she was. 14 Q: Did she tell you about Stoney Point? 15 A: Yes, she did. 16 Q: Did she tell you about the 1942 17 appropriation of the land at Stoney Point? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what did she tell you? 20 A: She told -- told me that when the -- 21 the people from the Army, they come in there, they said 22 they come to -- they said that they're going to use the 23 land and that it would be returned in 1942, which it was 24 not. 25 Q: Okay. Did she talk about the land
111 that later became Ipperwash Provincial Park? 2 A: Yes. She told me that was a burial 3 ground. She got sort of mad, because of them people 4 were using it for a camp ground. 5 Q: Did she ever talk to you about 6 whether she considered that land to be part of Stoney 7 Point land? 8 A: Yes, it was. 9 Q: And when you were a child, did you 10 spend any time at the -- at the Army camp? 11 A: I did when I was younger. 12 Q: And what did you do there? 13 A: I used to run around, did lots of 14 swimming, playing in the dunes and, like, going around 15 the shooting range collecting like the odd bullets and 16 stuff that had been fired off. 17 Q: And did you spend any time at 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 19 A: Not normally. 20 Q: Not normally? And did you ever go 21 to the Stoney Point lands with your great-grandmother 22 Shawkence? 23 A: No, I haven't. 24 Q: Okay. Okay, we're going to move now 25 to the time when people moved into the Army camp. We
121 understand from other witnesses that that happened in 2 May of 1993. 3 Were you there when people moved into the 4 Army camp? 5 A: I wasn't there when they moved into 6 the Army camp. I got taken down there with my step- 7 father, we'd go down there and visit everybody. 8 Q: And how often did you visit? 9 A: It would be twice, three (3) times a 10 month. 11 Q: And who did you see when you went 12 there? 13 A: Glen and Dudley, family. 14 Q: Okay. And did you do that in 1993 15 and in 1994? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: You said once or twice a month? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: At any point, did you move onto the 20 Army camp lands? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: When was that? 23 A: 1994. 24 Q: Okay. Was that -- 25 A: I'm not sure if it was '94 or '95.
131 Q: Was it the same summer that people 2 later went into Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: Okay. Other witnesses have told us 5 that that was in 1995. How long before people moved 6 into the Park did you move to the Army camp, would you 7 say? 8 A: I'm not quite sure on that. 9 Q: Was it several months or -- 10 A: Like a couple -- a couple of months 11 after they moved into the barracks and stuff. 12 Q: Okay. So, when you moved to the 13 Army Camp, people had already moved into the built-up 14 area? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Where did you stay when you 17 moved into -- into the built-up area at the Army Camp? 18 A: I stayed with Dudley for about a 19 week, then he got me set up in my own barrack. 20 Q: Okay. I'm just going to put an 21 image up on the screen and there's also a map in front 22 of you of the built-up area at the Army Camp. That was 23 -- the map has already been entered as Exhibit P-41 and 24 if you just want to have a look at the map of the 25 barracks area that's right in front of you there, okay?
141 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Okay, if you want to have a look at 5 the screen that's right behind you and there's a laser 6 pointer that's right in front of you -- okay, there you 7 go. Could you point out the building that you were 8 staying in? 9 A: 33A. It would be this side right 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. There's also a 12 red pen in front of you, I think to your -- do you see 13 it? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If -- if you could mark on that map 16 -- just circle the building that you were living in on 17 the -- on the paper copy of the map that's in front of 18 you. 19 And if we could have that map entered as 20 an Exhibit. 21 A: (INDICATING) 22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-115. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-115. 24 Thank you. 25
151 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-115: Document No. 2002436 Page 35 2 Schematic Diagram of Camp Ipperwash 3 Military Barracks Marked by 4 Witness James Cousins Jan 12/05 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 7 Q: So you were -- from what I 8 understand, you were fourteen (14) at the time that you 9 moved into the barracks area? 10 A: Yes, I was. 11 Q: Okay. And you moved there without 12 your -- without your parents? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. So, who was looking out for 15 you when you were staying at the barracks area? 16 A: Glenn and Judas. 17 Q: Okay. And you said that you'd 18 stayed with Dudley George, was he also helping to take 19 care of you when you were there? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And how long, at that point, had you 22 known Dudley George? 23 A: Pretty much all my life. 24 Q: Had you spent very much time with 25 him?
161 A: On and off. 2 Q: What can you tell us about living at 3 the Camp during that time before people moved into the 4 Park? 5 A: It was peaceful. 6 Q: What -- what did you do with your 7 time when you were there? 8 A: I'd ride around the Camp with others 9 that were down there. We'd ride around; have fun in our 10 -- our cars and stuff and cruise around and swim -- lots 11 of swimming and stuff and mostly just having fun. 12 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. Cousins, you'd said 13 earlier that Glenn and Judas had helped to take care of 14 you. Was that Glenn George? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And when you say, "Judas" do you 17 mean Roderick George? 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: Thank you. And while you were 20 there, when you were visiting or after you moved into 21 the barracks, did you see any people at the Camp with 22 guns? 23 A: No, ma'am. 24 Q: While you were staying at the Army 25 Camp, did you hear any discussions about people moving
171 into the Park? 2 A: I heard of some discussions but I 3 wasn't really paying attention. 4 Q: Do you recall what the -- what 5 people were talking about? 6 A: No, ma'am, I do not. 7 Q: Okay. All right. I'm going to take 8 you now into September of 1995 when we understand that 9 people did move into Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 And we've heard from other witnesses that 11 this took place on September 4th, 1995. Were you with 12 the first groups of people that entered the Park? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Okay. And where -- I'm just going 15 to have Mr. Worme pull up a map of the Provincial Park 16 on the screen behind you. 17 Could you show us on that map where, in 18 the Park, you entered? 19 A: There's a gateway right over about - 20 - right about over here. That's where we entered at. 21 Q: Thank you. And I understand that 22 that has been entered -- that map has been entered as P 23 -- Exhibit P-61. 24 Could I ask you to -- there's also a 25 paper copy of the map in front of you. Could you mark
181 with an X with the red pen where you've indicated that 2 you -- that you went into the Park? 3 A: Okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And if we could have that map 8 entered as an exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-116. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-116, 11 thank you. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-116: Document No. 1002409 Map of 14 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 15 Area "Welcome to Ipperwash!" 16 Marked by Witness James 17 Cousins Jan 12/05 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 20 Q: Who were you with when you entered 21 the Park? 22 A: I was with David George. 23 Q: And how did -- how did you get 24 there? 25 A: In his black car.
191 Q: Do you -- do you recall whether you 2 were travelling with anyone else? 3 A: I think I was with Dan George and 4 Wes George. 5 Q: Did you see any Park staff when you 6 arrived? 7 A: Park staff that -- they unlocked 8 that gate and they opened the gates for us so we can go 9 into the Park. 10 Q: Okay. And for the record, that is 11 where you've indicated and marked on the map in front of 12 you on Exhibit P-116, that is the east side of the Park. 13 And what did the Park staff when you 14 arrived there? 15 A: They unlocked that one (1) gate. 16 They opened it up and then they were gone. 17 Q: So there was a gate where you went 18 in? 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: Did you see anyone cutting a lock or 21 a fence? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And from what you can recall, did 24 the Park staff stay in the Park throughout the rest of 25 the day?
201 A: I don't think they did. 2 Q: Did you see any police officers in 3 the Park when you first arrived? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you see any police officers in 6 the area outside the Park on that first day? 7 A: No, I never. 8 Q: So you didn't see any on the roads 9 leading to the -- to the Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And that's true for the rest of the 12 day, the first day that you were there? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Did you witness an incident 15 involving Roderick George, who you've called Judas, and 16 -- and the OPP that day, involving a police cruiser? 17 A: I didn't really see it, but I could 18 hear like the -- big smash and afterwards you could see, 19 like, the cop car leaving and it had a back broken 20 window, rear window -- like the rear window in the car 21 was smashed. 22 Q: Can you describe where you saw that 23 happen? 24 A: It was by the -- the Park entrance. 25 Q: Park entrance. And if you'll have
211 again a look at the -- the map behind, and put at P-116 2 -- if you could indicate on that map where you saw that 3 happening. 4 A: Right round this area. 5 Q: And for the record, he's indicating 6 an area to the immediate east of the Park store. And 7 could you also mark that on the map of the Park in front 8 of you? And could you put a number 2 beside that? 9 A: (INDICATING) 10 Q: Mr. Cousins, you've also indicated 11 where you entered and I should have mentioned this to 12 you, could you put a number 1 beside where you entered 13 the Park? Thank you. Did you light any fires in the 14 Park that day? 15 A: Towards the evening. 16 Q: Towards the evening. And why did 17 you light fires in the Park? 18 A: For a source of heat and light. 19 Q: And where were those fires? 20 A: There was a fire by the general 21 store that was there, around by the fences and -- like a 22 couple of fires by the fences and along towards the 23 beach right by the dunes. 24 Q: Okay, thank you. Did you see anyone 25 drinking alcohol in the Park that day?
221 A: No, ma'am. 2 Q: Did you see anyone drinking alcohol 3 at any point while you were in the Park? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know why people would not 6 have been drinking alcohol? 7 A: That's a sacred burial ground. Why 8 would you drink on a graveyard? 9 Q: And did you stay in the Park 10 overnight? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: Who was there with you? 13 A: Leland George and Wade Thomas and 14 Dudley George. 15 Q: What did you do when you stayed 16 overnight? 17 A: We sat there and we were telling 18 stories and drink coffee and smoke cigarettes. 19 Q: And why did you stay in the Park 20 overnight? 21 A: I was there to help out and for 22 support. 23 Q: Did you sleep at all? 24 A: No, I never. 25 Q: Okay, I'm going to take you now to
231 the second day -- the day -- September 5th which would 2 have been the second day that you were in the Park. Did 3 you notice an increased police presence in the area of 4 the Park that day? 5 You've -- you've told us that you didn't 6 see any police the day before. So did you -- did you 7 notice any police that day? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Where did you see them? 10 A: They were on Army Camp Road. 11 Q: Army Camp Road. Okay, I'm just 12 going -- going to ask to have a map of the Army Camp 13 brought up so you can identify where on Army Camp Road 14 you saw them. For the record, we have up on the screen 15 a map that's been marked as Exhibit P-40. 16 I'm going to ask you to indicate on that 17 map where -- where you've described seeing police on 18 September 5th. 19 A: There's Matheson Drive right there, 20 them cops would be right around this area here before 21 you get to that corner. 22 Q: Okay. So that's to the immediate 23 south of Matheson Drive? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: And I'm also going to ask you to
241 mark on the paper copy of the map in front of you where 2 you've indicated you saw police. And could you mark 3 that with a number 1 beside it? 4 A: (INDICATING) 5 Q: If we could get that map entered as 6 an exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-117. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-117: Document No. 1002409, Page 10 13, Map of Ipperwash Army 11 Camp (Ipperwash Military 12 Reserve) Marked by Witness 13 James Cousins Jan 12/05. 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 P-117. 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 20 Q: About what time of day did you note 21 the police there? 22 A: Afternoon. 23 Q: All right. We've heard evidence 24 from other witnesses about a conversation that occurred 25 that day at the Park, at the Park fence, involving
251 Dudley George and some OPP officers. Do you recall 2 being there for such a conversation? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what 5 happened? 6 A: Three (3) -- three (3) officers 7 approached the Park. They come up to the fence and 8 they're -- they were bringing out some wisecracks and 9 stuff and it was one (1) of those cops come over, that 10 cop with red hair and moustache and stuff -- he come 11 over and he was arguing with Dudley and then he -- he 12 told him, Dudley, you're going to be the first dead 13 Indian. 14 Q: Was Dudley saying anything to him? 15 A: He just more or less laughed and 16 chuckled around and, like, didn't really -- didn't have 17 a care in the world -- happy-go-lucky. 18 Q: You told us that there were three 19 (3) officers, can you describe the other two (2) 20 officers that you saw? 21 A: The other two (2) officers, there 22 was -- there was an officer with blond hair, clean- 23 shaving; he had to be about six (6) feet tall and the 24 other guy had dark brown hair and he was a little bit 25 taller than the other officer and he had a moustache.
261 Q: Okay. And who else was with you 2 when that conversation took place? 3 A: Me and Dudley and Wade Thomas. 4 Q: And did you -- did the three (3) of 5 you remain on the inside of the fence? 6 A: Yes, we did. 7 Q: Okay. Did the officers remain on 8 the outside? 9 A: Yes, they did. 10 Q: Did you return to the barracks at 11 any point that day? 12 A: I returned up there probably about 13 ten o'clock in the morning and I got something to eat at 14 the mess hall and from there I went -- I got told I 15 better go home -- back to my barrack and get some sleep. 16 Q: How long do -- would you say you 17 slept for? 18 A: Couple of hours. 19 Q: And what did you do when you woke 20 up? 21 A: Walked around the barracks wondering 22 where everbody's at; walked to the mess hall, sitting 23 around there drinking some coffee and smoking a couple 24 of cigarettes and I walked out towards where the front - 25 - front gate offices are and that garage and Dudley come
271 along with the "OPP Who" car and picked us up; took us 2 for a ride. 3 Q: And you say, "picked us up". Was 4 there someone else with you? 5 A: Wade. 6 Q: Okay. And where did you go from 7 there? 8 A: We went for a ride around the Army 9 Camp and down towards Outer Drive, around through there; 10 come out by the inland lakes, back along the inland 11 lakes, then we come up to that one (1) road and then we 12 come back in and down towards the Park. 13 Q: All right. I see that we have a map 14 of the military reserve behind you on the screen; it's 15 marked as Exhibit P-117. Could you indicate on that map 16 the route that you followed from the -- from the Army 17 Camp down through the Park? 18 A: We come through -- over here -- we 19 come out this way, all the way along and you hit this 20 road here. You come back around, down this way. You 21 come all the way out, you hit over here by Outer Drive, 22 back, down, out. You come around over this way, come 23 back around. You come up this way, around the inland 24 lakes and you come back towards the Park. 25 Q: Thank you. And could you also mark
281 that on the paper copy of that map in front of you in a 2 line? 3 A: (INDICATING) 4 Q: You've indicated that you returned 5 to the Park that afternoon? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: Did you see any boats on the lake 8 that day? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: What did they look like? 11 A: White boats and they were about a 12 mile off shore and they said, "Police" along the bottom 13 and it looked like in black letters above its police, it 14 said, "SWAT". 15 Q: Okay. So they were close enough to 16 the shore that you could make out the letters. 17 A: With binoculars, yes. 18 Q: With binoculars. And what were they 19 doing? 20 A: They were just sitting off shore. 21 Q: Okay. Did they leave at any point? 22 A: There was a boat out there parked 23 facing towards Kettle Point with the bow of the boat 24 would be facing Kettle Point and it would be sitting out 25 there for about two (2), three (3) hours.
291 Another boat would come, like, from, like 2 Kettle Point area. It'd come down, dock against that 3 boat and that boat would leave and head towards Grand 4 Bend and another boat would -- that other boat would 5 come back. It was like they just kept rotating. 6 Q: On that same day, on September 5th, 7 do you recall an incident involving picnic tables at the 8 Park? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: What can you tell us about that? 11 A: That day, later in that day we 12 started putting picnic tables across that -- outside the 13 fence from the Park, there. There's -- off of East 14 Parkway Drive there, coming from that road like that, 15 there's a sandy parking lot 16 which people used to park and go down to the beach. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: We'd block that off with picnic 19 tables running them across from the -- the one (1) side 20 of the Park there, across the -- towards the cottages to 21 block the road way. 22 Q: You'll see behind you, Mr. Cousins, 23 on the other side to your left, there's a -- there's a 24 larger map and there's a black marker in front of you. 25 There's a lot of equipment there for you to use.
301 Could you indicate on that map where you 2 placed the picnic tables? 3 A: (INDICATING). Across there. 4 Q: Okay. For the record he's -- Mr. 5 Cousins has drawn a line across the sandy parking lot 6 area, from the Park fence line to north-west of the 7 first driveway. 8 And that map has previously been entered 9 as Exhibit P-23, I believe. If we could get Mr. 10 Cousins' copy of the map entered as an exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-118. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT P-118: "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 14 September 20/95, Marked by 15 Witness James Cousins Jan 16 12/05 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 19 Q: How many picnic tables would you say 20 you moved out into that area? 21 A: About fifteen (15). 22 Q: Okay. Okay, and what were you doing 23 with the picnic tables after they were moved out there? 24 A: Road block. 25 Q: Were you sitting on the tables?
311 A: I was standing on a table. 2 Q: You were standing on the table. And 3 how many people would you say were out -- out in that 4 area with you, around the picnic tables? 5 A: About six (6) of us. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. Can you tell us what 7 happened next? 8 A: They were standing out there after 9 that the picnic tables out there and that and we got 10 like a line going across there and that. We're starting 11 to bring out some more picnic tables to put them on top 12 and as they're bring out that tables and that and they 13 hollered, Here comes the cops and that, you know. 14 When the cops come there it was like they 15 just used their cruisers and stuff for -- like to ram -- 16 ram the tables. They didn't get out of their cars. 17 They just drove into the picnic tables with their police 18 cars using it like a battering ram. 19 Q: How many police cruisers were 20 involved in this? 21 A: Two (2) of them. 22 Q: Two (2)? Okay. Which direction did 23 they come from? 24 A: They come from down Army Camp Road. 25 Q: All right. Did the officers inside
321 the cruisers say anything to you before they rammed the 2 picnic tables? 3 A: No, they never. 4 Q: Where were you when this took place? 5 A: I was standing on top of one (1) of 6 the picnic tables. 7 Q: And what happened to you when the 8 picnic tables were rammed? 9 A: When the picnic tables got rammed, I 10 jumped off one (1) of those picnic tables and took off 11 back towards the -- inside the Park because they were 12 just smashing into them and using all force with their 13 cruisers. 14 Q: Did -- did either of the cruisers 15 ram the picnic table that you were standing on? 16 A: Yes, they did. 17 Q: And you jumped off the picnic table 18 you've indicated? 19 A: Hmm hmm. Yes, I did, ma'am. 20 Q: All right. Can you tell me -- or 21 tell us -- who -- who else was with you at the time of 22 that incident? 23 A: Wade Thomas, Wes George, Dan George, 24 Dave George, Joe George. There was quite a few people 25 standing around there.
331 Q: Okay. And what did all of these 2 people do once the cruiser started ramming the picnic 3 tables? 4 A: We come back inside the Park and we 5 were waiting to see what they were going to say, if they 6 even got out of their cars and stuff. 7 Q: Okay. And did they? 8 A: They eventually got out, like after 9 they rammed the picnic tables, like from where we were 10 standing at and got moving around with their cruisers 11 and two (2) other officers come around and they started 12 moving back the picnic tables towards the other side 13 away from the Park. 14 Q: Okay. All right. And what did the 15 police do after -- after that? 16 A: They moved the picnic tables and 17 then they -- they had, like -- I forget, it was like a - 18 - some sort of confrontation or something; then they 19 were in their cruisers and gone. 20 Q: Can you describe that confrontation? 21 A: Not quite sure what they said, but I 22 disappeared back into, like, making fires again -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- keeping the fires going. 25 Q: Did you move away from the area of
341 the fence -- the Park fence? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: So you couldn't hear if people were 4 speaking, what they were saying? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: Okay. What did you do in the Park 7 that evening on September 5th, which is the second day 8 in the Park? 9 A: I was busy running around and 10 gathering up like wood and stuff for making fires. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. And in general, what were 12 the people in the Park doing? 13 A: Sitting around talking. 14 Q: Did you stay in the Park overnight 15 again that night? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And who were you with? 18 A: I was with Dudley and Leland. 19 Q: No one else? I'm sorry, you said -- 20 A: Leland. 21 Q: Thank you. And what did you do that 22 night? 23 A: Sat around and I was, like, riding 24 around on the -- Marlin's four (4) wheeler, like, doing 25 perimeter checks and stuff; checking everything out.
351 Riding on the four (4) wheeler and drinking lots of 2 coffee. 3 Q: Okay. You said, Marlin. Do you 4 mean Marlin Simon? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: Okay. Did you get any sleep that 7 night while you were in the Park? 8 A: No, ma'am. 9 Q: Okay. I'm going to take you now to 10 the morning of September 6th, which would be your third 11 day in the Park. Can you tell me what happened early 12 that morning? 13 A: Early that morning we were sitting 14 down there drinking coffee and stuff and the four (4) 15 wheeler was parked on the other side of the fence from 16 the Park in the parking lot where the picnic tables 17 were. 18 I had the four (4) wheeler parked over 19 there and I was, like, running around there and all of a 20 sudden, like, these cops come from down Army Camp Road 21 and East Parkway Drive. 22 They come from both directions and they 23 come flying up real fast. They had, like, assault -- 24 assault rifles and, like, sniper guns with great big 25 scopes on them and they lined up all along the -- like,
361 the edge of the fence line, on the other -- other side 2 of the fence line. 3 They were laying in the sand with their 4 guns out and everything. They were laying in the sand 5 and they were just looking through their scopes and 6 stuff and checking everything out in the Park and they 7 were just, like, laying there and then some other cops 8 were further back. 9 Q: Okay. Can I ask you again to turn 10 to the map that's behind you, with the black felt marker 11 and you've already drawn a line across the sandy parking 12 lot area, could you mark that with a -- with a number 1? 13 A: (INDICATING) 14 Q: And, for the record, he's exhibiting 15 -- he's turned to Exhibit P-118. Could you indicate on 16 that map where you saw police lined up? 17 A: (INDICATING) 18 Q: How many officers would you say were 19 there? 20 A: There was about ten (10) officers. 21 Q: Okay. And you said they were lined 22 up against the -- in the area of the Park fence. You've 23 drawn a line indicating just to the immediate west of 24 the Park fence. 25 Can you tell me what the officers were
371 doing? 2 A: They were laying in the sand with 3 their guns out and they -- they were like looking around 4 for -- I'm not sure what they were looking for, but they 5 had their guns out and they were like, you could see 6 them all looking through their scopes and stuff. 7 Q: Okay. Were they pointing their guns 8 in any direction? 9 A: All the guns were facing towards in 10 the Park and like they were using their scopes and 11 looking around. I'm not sure what they were looking 12 for. 13 Q: Okay. Were you frightened by the 14 appearance of police and their actions? 15 A: Yeah, I was -- I was scared and I 16 was like about ready to take off and head into the woods 17 -- bushes then Dudley told me, don't be scared, they 18 can't do nothing. This is our land. 19 Q: You've indicated that you left 20 Marlin Simon's 4x4 on the -- 21 A: Four (4) wheeler -- 22 Q: Four (4) wheeler, thank you, on the 23 outside of the Park fence. Could you turn to the map 24 that's Exhibit P-118 and make a mark where you left that 25 and mark that with a Number 3?
381 A: (INDICATING). 2 Q: Thank you. So what did you do after 3 the police arrived and lined up where you've indicated? 4 A: I took off up to the -- that utility 5 shed to go see -- Dudley told me to go and wake some 6 people up and tell everybody to get down to that Park so 7 I went up and I woke -- woke up Russell Jewel -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: And then Tina was standing in that 10 utility shed down there and that and they were down 11 there and then they all come up and he went up to the 12 barracks and started to wake everybody up and he said 13 they'd be down shortly. 14 Q: Did you stay in the maintenance 15 shed? 16 A: No, I returned back to the Park. 17 Q: Okay. How long would you say it was 18 before people started to arrive at the Park, from that 19 area of the Army camp? 20 A: About a half hour. 21 Q: Okay. And just to take you back, 22 before you went to the utility shed, did the police say 23 anything as -- as the officers say anything as they were 24 lined up at the fence or as they approached the Park? 25 A: No, they never.
391 Q: Okay. And when you went back to the 2 -- the area of the fence, the officers were still there? 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: Did they say anything at that time? 5 A: No, they never. 6 Q: And did the officers you saw stay 7 where you've indicated until -- until you've said that 8 people -- it took half an hour for people to start to 9 arrive from the area of the Army camp. 10 Did the officers stay that there -- stay 11 there that entire time? 12 A: They were there and then when more 13 people start showing up and the cars, like, when Russ' 14 car come into the Park and that and like more vehicles 15 start showing up, the cops disappeared. 16 Q: Where did they go? 17 A: I'm not sure. I think they went 18 back down East Parkway. 19 Q: Okay. Did you go back up to the 20 barracks area on that day? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: Okay. Did you get some sleep? 23 A: I got a little bit of sleep. 24 Q: Okay. About what time would you say 25 you returned to the Park?
401 A: By about one o'clock. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And either on the way to the 6 barracks or on the way back, did you see any police 7 officers in the area of the Park or the Army camp? 8 A: On the way back to the barracks? 9 Q: When you were returning to -- to go 10 get some sleep in the morning? 11 A: No, ma'am. 12 Q: No? How about after you slept? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Where did you see them? 15 A: There was cops by that -- just past 16 that store when you're going down Army Camp Road. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay, we're going to pull 18 up a map of the Army Camp again which has been marked as 19 Exhibit P-117. And I'm going to ask you to indicate 20 with the laser pointer where you saw the police 21 officers. 22 A: There -- there's a hill where you 23 come down around in this area through here, when you're 24 coming down that hill them cops were probably right in 25 this area about around here?
411 Q: Okay. For the record, he's 2 indicated a point on the east side of the Army Camp -- 3 west side. My apologies. About four fifths (4/5) of 4 the way towards Matheson Drive as you go from Highway 5 21. 6 Can you also mark on the hard copy of 7 Exhibit P-17 where you saw those officers. And could 8 you put a number 3 beside that? 9 A: (INDICATING) 10 Q: Thank you, Mr. Cousins. Were there 11 more police officers that you saw that day than on the 12 previous day? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: About how many police cars did you 15 see? 16 A: There wasn't no cars there. There 17 was just officers standing on a road. 18 Q: Can you recall roughly how many 19 officers there were? 20 A: There was probably about twelve (12) 21 officers. 22 Q: So you returned to the Park you've 23 indicated in the early afternoon, what were people doing 24 when you got back to the Park? 25 A: Everybody was sitting around there
421 talking and stuff and some of the younger kids like my 2 age and that were out swimming. 3 Q: And did you see any helicopters in 4 the Park that day? Or over the Park rather? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: Can you describe them? 7 A: White helicopter, there was three 8 (3) people inside the helicopter and like the -- the 9 pilot and on, like, both sides it looked people had 10 video cameras. 11 Q: So you saw one (1) helicopter. 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: About how high was it flying? 14 A: Just above the tree tops. 15 Q: And what did you do when the 16 helicopter was flying overhead? 17 A: I was running around underneath the 18 -- the bushes and stuff. Like because we seen them with 19 -- they had a camera on there and so us younger guys 20 were running around like from bush to bush like I'd be 21 over here and then someone would be over there. 22 And another guy would be over there. 23 When the helicopter come past, one (1) person shaked the 24 bush and then shake the bush and somebody shake the 25 bush. Just giving them a hard time.
431 Q: Was there any other reason for doing 2 that other than giving the people in the helicopter a 3 hard time? 4 A: It makes like there was people in 5 the Park. They can't get a full count. 6 Q: Do you recall what time of day you 7 saw the helicopter flying overhead? 8 A: It was probably about two o'clock in 9 the afternoon. 10 Q: That afternoon or evening, did you 11 at any point leave the area of the camp or the Park? 12 A: No, ma'am. 13 Q: Did you witness an incident 14 involving Gerald George and Stewart George? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 17 A: I didn't hear the conversation that 18 went on between the two (2), but from what I seen is 19 Gerald George and when he turned to walk away, that's 20 when Stewart George punched him. 21 Q: Okay. How far away were you 22 standing? 23 A: About fifteen (15) feet. 24 Q: Fifteen (15) feet? Okay. Can you 25 indicate -- we're going to pull up a map of the Park
441 area. Can you indicate where that took place? For the 2 record, that's Exhibit P-116 we have on the screen. 3 A: You guys don't got a very good map. 4 Q: Would it be helpful if you looked at 5 the map of the intersection that's -- 6 A: This one over here would be much 7 better. 8 Q: Okay, that's Exhibit P-118. If 9 you'd like to mark on that map where that incident took 10 place. And could you mark that with a number 4? 11 A: (INDICATING) 12 Q: You've indicated that Gerald George 13 was right at the fence line; was he in his vehicle? 14 A: No, I don't think so. 15 Q: Okay. Did he stay on the outside of 16 the Park or on the other side of the fence? 17 A: I -- yes. 18 Q: Okay. And did Stewart George stay 19 on -- inside the Park? On the fence? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Okay. You indicated you 22 heard them yelling, can you tell me a little bit about 23 what -- what you saw after you heard them yelling? 24 A: I could hear them hollering and 25 that, but I wasn't quite sure what they were arguing
451 about and then when Gerald George turned to walk away, 2 that's when Stewart George punched him in the face. 3 Q: Okay. And what happened after that? 4 A: There was like a big motion and that 5 and then I just, like, returned to doing what I was 6 doing, didn't really pay attention. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall roughly what 8 time of day that happened? 9 A: That was early evening. 10 Q: Okay. At any point that evening, 11 Mr. Cousins, did you see officers in the roads on the 12 outside of the Park? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Okay. Where did you see them? 15 A: There were some down East Parkway 16 Drive and there was some down by the dog store. 17 Q: Okay. And you've already indicated 18 -- is the dog store the store that you were describing 19 earlier on Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: That you indicated on the -- that 22 you marked on the map? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And what were you doing that 25 evening?
461 A: Building fires. 2 Q: Did you go for any trips on the four 3 (4) wheeler? 4 A: I was on the four (4) wheeler; I 5 went for a trip up to the -- up to the barracks and 6 stuff. I went and got, like, darker clothes on and I 7 was back around and I stopped at the utility shed and I 8 was talking with Tina and then I went back to the Park. 9 Q: Okay. And you didn't do any 10 travelling on the roads outside the Camp or the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. At any point that evening, 13 did people in the Park begin to talk about police 14 officers moving into the Park? 15 A: There was some discussion of that. 16 Q: Okay. And can you describe, in 17 general terms, what the content of those discussions 18 were? 19 A: I'm not too sure about that because 20 I wasn't hardly paying attention to everybody's 21 discussions. 22 Q: Okay. Were you worried about the 23 police coming into the Park? 24 A: Sort of. 25 Q: Was anyone doing anything to get
471 ready for police coming into the Park? 2 A: We got told to build the fires, make 3 them nice and big so we'd have lots of light around 4 there because the Park was quite dark. No lights, no 5 street lights or nothing in there. 6 Q: And you said we -- you were told, 7 who else was told to do that? 8 A: Leland. 9 Q: And who were you told by? 10 A: Dave -- Dave George and Worm. 11 Q: By Worm, do you mean Stewart George? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: At any point that evening, as the 14 evening progressed, did anyone tell you to leave the 15 Park area and return to the barracks area? 16 A: Yes ma'am. I got told that all 17 women and children were suppose to leave the Park and 18 return up to the barracks. 19 Q: And who told you that? 20 A: There was quite a few people that 21 kept saying that. 22 Q: Okay. Did Roderick George tell you 23 that? 24 A: Yes, he did. 25 Q: Did anyone else tell you that, that
481 you can recall? 2 A: Roderick and Dudley and all of them 3 said that we should be heading back up there and it was 4 not a safe place for women and children to be at. 5 Q: Did they say why it wasn't safe for 6 women and children? 7 A: They said they were going to have a 8 confrontation with the police and they weren't sure what 9 was going to go on. 10 Q: These conversations you're 11 describing, did they occur before dark or after dark? 12 A: A little bit after dark. 13 Q: Were you afraid when people started 14 saying these things to you? 15 A: I was kind of scared. 16 Q: And what did you do? Did you return 17 to the barracks area? 18 A: No, I never. 19 Q: Why not? 20 A: Can't make me leave. 21 Q: Was there any other reason why you 22 would want to stay in the Park? 23 A: Support of my people. 24 Q: Did you see Bernard George and 25 Jeremiah George approach the Park that evening?
491 A: I didn't really see them approach 2 the Park. I just remember them, they come up from down 3 the beach way and they said cops were on their way. 4 Q: And who were they talking to? 5 A: They were talking with Judas and 6 Dave and everybody that was down there. All the Elders. 7 Q: And at that point could you see any 8 police from inside the Park? 9 A: No, I couldn't. 10 Q: And what did people do after having 11 these conversations with Bernard George and Jeremiah 12 George? 13 A: They start to -- started to get 14 prepared. 15 Q: How did they do that? 16 A: Well, to defend your land when 17 there's no guns or nothing allowed in the Park, we use 18 like a stick or like anything you can find just to 19 prepare yourself for someone who can hurt you. 20 Q: Did people begin to gather? 21 A: Gather sticks and like rocks and 22 stuff. 23 Q: Okay. Once these conversations with 24 Bernard George took place, was it your impression that 25 people were waiting, that people believed that police
501 would arrive? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: So they were waiting for them to 4 arrive? 5 A: Yes, they were. 6 Q: Did you expect the police to come? 7 A: After everybody was getting ready 8 and that, yeah, I suspected that they were coming. 9 Q: And how did you feel about that? 10 A: I was scared. 11 Q: Did you see any cottagers in the 12 area of the Park that evening? 13 A: No, ma'am. 14 Q: When did you first see police 15 approaching the Park? 16 A: I'm not sure of what time it was. 17 It was just after it got dark. 18 Q: About how long was it after Bernard 19 George and Jeremiah George had arrived at the Park? 20 A: By about a half hour, twenty (20) 21 minutes. 22 Q: And can you tell us what you saw? 23 A: I seen three (3) lines of cops 24 coming down the road. They stretched from side to side. 25 First row had -- there's -- the shields and batons and
511 the second row had shields and batons with big lead 2 weights on them, and third row had, like, their riot 3 gear, like their face guards, shields and guns. 4 Q: Okay. If you could turn to the -- 5 the map of the intersection behind you that's marked -- 6 been entered as Exhibit P-118, indicate if it's on that 7 map area, where you -- where police were when you first 8 saw them approaching. 9 A: They were right about -- right 10 around here. 11 Q: Okay. For the record, he's 12 indicated a line on the west -- western most border of 13 the area covered by the map. 14 Could you mark that with a -- with a 15 Number 5, Mr. Cousins? 16 A: (INDICATING). 17 Q: Thank you. What was the lighting 18 like in the area? 19 A: Lighting was very poor. 20 Q: What light there was, where was it 21 coming from? 22 A: There was like a street light 23 further down the road past that -- that first cottage in 24 that lane there, and that's how you could -- you could 25 tell that the cops were coming down the road, because
521 they had to pass through that light -- that light. 2 Slowly started to fade out when the cops 3 were coming down the road, like, they shut it off or 4 something. 5 Q: Okay. Could you indicate where the 6 -- where the light was on the map behind you, on Exhibit 7 P-118? 8 A: (INDICATING). 9 Q: And mark that with a Number 6. 10 A: (INDICATING). 11 Q: Thank you. And did you see any spot 12 lights used by anyone in the area? 13 A: No, ma'am. 14 Q: No. So you didn't see any spotlights 15 used by police? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And no spotlights used by anyone in 18 the Park? 19 A: No, ma'am. 20 Q: About how many officers could you 21 see approaching the Park area? 22 A: I'm not sure how many but there was 23 quite a few of them. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. As they were spread 25 across the road, would you say they were shoulder to
531 shoulder? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: And there were three (3) rows of 4 them? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: Do you recall seeing Bernard George 7 on the road outside the Park, as police were 8 approaching? 9 A: When they were approaching he was 10 not on the road, he was in the sandy parking lot. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was he doing? 12 A: He went over to, like, over the 13 fence area and he was swinging around a staff and he was 14 telling them that this was our grandfathers' land, you 15 shouldn't be here. 16 And the cops come rushing at him real 17 fast and he was like swinging that staff around in a 18 circle so they couldn't come near him and the cops just 19 flattened him with their shields. And they just start 20 beating on him and like another line of cops come up and 21 like -- like towards the fence and that. 22 So, like they blocked him off and we 23 couldn't get near him and they severely beat -- were 24 beating on him with their billy clubs and kicking at him 25 when there's nothing we could do about that and when I
541 seen him after, like, they got him over towards the -- 2 that -- like over towards the corner where that other 3 side of the road from the Park is there -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Heading down the road. They were 6 dragging him away by his hair and kicking him, beating 7 him while they're still dragging him down the road. 8 Q: Okay. Mr. Cousins, if you could 9 turn to the map behind you, Exhibit P-118, and mark 10 where you first -- where you saw police surround -- 11 initially surround Mr. George? And mark that with a 12 number 7. 13 A: (INDICATING) 14 Q: Where were you when you saw this 15 happen? 16 A: I was pretty much right -- right 17 across by the fence, like -- like when you see straight 18 across, like, towards him. 19 Q: About how far would you say you were 20 from him? 21 A: On the other side of the fence. 22 Q: Okay. And what were people inside 23 the Park doing while this was happening? 24 A: Freaking out, getting mad. 25 Q: And were they yelling?
551 A: Yelling and swinging our clubs over 2 the fence trying to hit the officers. 3 Q: How close were officers to the fence 4 line? 5 A: Banging -- banging against the fence 6 line, reaching across with their -- like, they put up 7 their shields so like we couldn't hit at them. Then, 8 like, they moved their shields back and they'd just 9 swing real fast with their billy clubs and try and hit 10 us. 11 Q: Did you participate in any of the 12 fights over the fence with police? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: Were you hit? 15 A: I was hit a couple of times. 16 Q: Where were you hit? 17 A: I got hit in the -- in the shoulder 18 and in the side of the ribs. 19 Q: Okay. And did you hit any police 20 officers? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: What did you hit them with? 23 A: I hit them with a -- a cedar branch. 24 Q: And did you see people go over the 25 fence at any time?
561 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: Can you tell me -- or tell us what 3 happened then? 4 A: After the -- the cops backed off and 5 then, like, when they -- they -- they, like they backed 6 off -- went so far back, they started to come forward 7 again and that's when they opened up the gate in the 8 Park and, like, trying to get towards, like, Slippery 9 and that. 10 They used Waldo's car to go out there and 11 bussed through the -- the cops like that, and like, 12 they, like, rode in towards, like, how the cops used 13 their police cruisers to use against, like, the picnic 14 tables for a battering ram. That's how we used the car. 15 We go out there in the bus; went out 16 there after the car. As the bus was going out there, it 17 went out there, like forward, and as he was coming -- as 18 he was backing up he hit into the -- the turn -- the 19 turn gate that's there -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- and when the bus went forward 22 again, the -- to straighten it out and then bring the 23 bus back in after the car was right in, the bus went 24 forward again and it stalled out. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
571 A: And -- and it started up the -- when 2 Nick started up the -- the bus, it backfired and -- 3 shortly after the bus backfired, that's when the cops 4 started shooting at us. 5 Q: Okay. Just to back up a little bit, 6 you described the bus leaving -- leaving the Park and 7 driving out and then stalling or stopping. Can you 8 indicate on the map behind you, Exhibit P-118, where the 9 bus stopped? 10 A: The bus come out through here from 11 the gateway -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- come out this way. 14 Q: Mr. Cousins -- Mr. Cousins, there's 15 a -- a handheld mike over at the end of the table there. 16 A: The bus come out from the gateway 17 over here; the car come out first, come out and he was 18 smashing at it like all the cops were over this way. 19 When everybody was fighting around and the -- the car 20 come back in and it was parking, like, over -- over this 21 way. The bus come out -- the bus come out and come out 22 this way, crashing into, like, cops and that and they 23 were smashing against the bus. 24 When he backed up he hit this post over 25 here -- they hit that post and they couldn't get that,
581 so they -- they had to turn the bus to get it going 2 forward again. And when it come forward it stopped 3 right about out over this way and it stalled out, right 4 about there. And when they started it back up, it come 5 back this way and when it started to back up it, like, 6 it backfires. 7 Q: Okay. Could you -- could you mark 8 where the -- for the record, you're -- you're indicating 9 an area in the sandy -- 10 A: Parking lot. 11 Q: -- parking lot area. Could you mark 12 in that area where you saw the bus stop? 13 A: (INDICATING) 14 Q: And could you mark that with a -- a 15 number 8? 16 Okay, you've indicated that the bus 17 stalled and shortly after that, backfired and that's 18 when you said police started shooting. Can you tell us 19 how long after you heard the backfire, you heard 20 gunfire? 21 A: It was about ten (10) -- fifteen 22 (15) seconds after the bus backfired, the cops started 23 shooting at us. 24 Q: And just to take you back a little 25 bit, what were the police doing as the bus left the Park
591 and drove out and stopped? 2 A: They were jumping, trying to get out 3 of the way and that, and they were like smashing their 4 billy clubs and that, and hitting at the windows and -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- banging on the bus and stuff. 7 Q: Okay. And you've indicated that you 8 heard gunfire start ten (10) to fifteen (15) seconds 9 after you heard the backfire? 10 A: Yes, ma'am. 11 Q: Can you describe what that gunfire 12 sounded like? 13 A: It's like -- it was like -- like a 14 pop, then it was just like -- like how you watch movies 15 and stuff and see like an automatic gun go off and they 16 let off like the whole clip in burst. and it sounded 17 like that, it was like just constantly fire. 18 Like if -- like if you were to take, 19 like, a strip, like, kids playing with firecrackers, 20 those big long packs of a hundred (100) strips -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: You blow them off and you know how 23 that sounds. Well, you can kind of picture of the 24 sounds of the guns. 25 Q: And how long would you say the
601 gunfire continued? 2 A: Probably about thirty (30) seconds 3 to a minute. 4 Q: And where were you when it started? 5 A: I was in the sandy parking lot. 6 Q: Can you indicate on the map behind 7 you, that's Exhibit P-118, where you were standing? 8 A: Right about there. 9 Q: Okay. Can you put a number 9 beside 10 that? 11 A: (INDICATING). 12 Q: About how far would you say you were 13 from the bus? 14 A: About ten (10) feet. 15 Q: What did you do when you heard 16 gunfire? 17 A: I sort of took off. Jeremiah was 18 like, Come on, Jay, hurry up and he was like, Jeremiah 19 grabbed a hold of me. And when we was going back to the 20 Park he made me run real fast back to the Park, inside 21 the Park there where he hid me in behind a cement 22 pillar. 23 And you could hear the bullets 24 ricocheting off the, like the cement pillar and you 25 could hear them going whizzing all over the place.
611 Q: What was going through your mind as 2 you heard that? 3 A: I think -- I was thinking that we're 4 all going to be shot. They are gonna -- they're going 5 to kill us all. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Mr. Cousins, I'm wondering. You've 10 been there for a while. Are you all right to continue, 11 or would you like a break? 12 A: Keep going. 13 Q: Keep going? Okay. At any point 14 during this time, did you see Dudley George? 15 A: I seen him fall and hit the cement. 16 He was struggling to get back up. We weren't -- I went 17 running out there and Stuart George and Roderick George, 18 Robert Isaac are helping him up, picking him up and 19 taking him back in the Park. 20 There's Dudley's blood all over the place 21 from where the cops shot him and, like, put him in the - 22 - and they were putting him in the back of that car. I 23 was ready to jump in the back of the car with Dudley and 24 everybody's figuring out, like, what's going on, what's 25 going on?
621 And they got him in the back of the "OPP 2 Who" car. I think Stuart George was in the front -- 3 front seat with Robert Isaac and I was in the back seat 4 with Dudley. I was putting pressure on his wound as we 5 went up to the front -- front barracks. 6 Q: And how did you get into the back 7 seat from where you were describing? How did you get 8 into the back seat of the car? 9 A: Jumped in. 10 Q: Jumped in? Okay. Just to take you 11 back a little bit, where were you or where did you see - 12 - where was Dudley when you saw him fall? If you could 13 indicate on Exhibit P-118? Okay. And could you mark 14 that with a number 10? 15 A: (INDICATING). 16 Q: For the record, he's indicated a 17 point just onto the paved area. 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: Right at the curve where Army Camp 20 Road and East Parkway Drive intersect. Did anyone tell 21 you to get into the back seat of that car? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Why did you get into the back seat 24 of the car? 25 A: I was scared for Dudley.
631 Q: And where did the car go once you 2 got in and everyone else got in? 3 A: We went through the part of the 4 Park, across the bridge by that water treatment plant 5 and we turned towards that utility shed, crossed there, 6 we crossed Matheson Drive and into the like the part of 7 the army base, part of the campground there. 8 And then we headed up towards up towards 9 the barracks. That's going along that road like the 10 same road that's on -- there's Army Camp Road and 11 there's another road parallel to that on the inside of 12 the Army Base. 13 Q: I believe I've heard it described by 14 other witnesses as Inner Drive? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And when you were in the back of the 17 OPP WHO car with Dudley, was he breathing? 18 A: Yes, he was. 19 Q: Was he conscious? 20 A: Yes, he was. 21 Q: Can you tell me anything else if he 22 was doing anything else? 23 A: He looked at me and he smiled and he 24 was just gasping -- gasping like having real long deep 25 breaths of air.
641 Q: Okay. You've indicated that you 2 were putting pressure on his wounds. Can you tell us 3 where on his body his wound or wounds were? 4 A: It was right below his heart and it 5 exited on the, like, through his back. It looked like - 6 - it was like a -- it felt like when you put your hand 7 over him like this putting pressure on him then I 8 reached in from behind like that and I put my hand like 9 to hold onto him and like give him more pressure. 10 When I reached back and I put my hand 11 out, there was blood on the other side on my other arm. 12 And then you realized that the bullet went right through 13 him. 14 Q: How did you know to put pressure on 15 his wounds? 16 A: Common sense. 17 Q: And what was going through your head 18 at that point? 19 A: I was just hoping that he wasn't 20 going to die. 21 Q: Okay. So you've indicated that the 22 "OPP Who" car travelled up to the barracks. If we could 23 get a map of the barracks area? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
651 2 Q: Can you indicate -- that's for the 3 record been entered -- that map has been entered as 4 Exhibit P-115, where, with the laser pointer, where the 5 car stopped in that area? 6 A: Right around here, there's like a 7 garage and everything's over here and you got your gate 8 houses where you come in and out of the Park, we stopped 9 right over, right around this area here. 10 Q: Okay. For the record he's indicated 11 an area immediately to the west of the main gate house - 12 - east, my apologies. And what happened then? 13 A: I was sort of keeping my 14 concentration on Dudley and they -- they moved him over 15 at Pierre's, Dudley's brother's car -- into his -- his 16 white car. And then from there Pierre and Cully were -- 17 Cully jumped in the front seat and then she said she was 18 going with Pierre and I jumped in the back seat with 19 Dudley when they put him in the back seat. 20 And I was still putting pressure on his 21 wound and we took off out of that gate to take him to 22 the hospital. 23 Q: Was -- was Dudley lying down in the 24 back seat? 25 A: No, he wasn't. He was sitting up.
661 Q: Was there any reason that you didn't 2 lie him down in the back seat? 3 A: Why, you want him to choke on his 4 blood? 5 Q: Okay. And did Carolyn George or 6 Pierre George -- I take it when you said Carolyn and 7 Pierre you meant Carolyn and Pierre George? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: Were they speak -- did they tell you 10 to do anything while you were in the back seat? 11 A: They told me to keep talking to him 12 and make sure he's -- he stays awake and he keeps 13 conscious. 14 Q: Was he still conscious at that 15 point? 16 A: Yes, he was. 17 Q: Okay. Could you hear him breathing? 18 A: Yes, I can. 19 Q: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Hensel, 21 Mr. Cousins may not need a break, but I think the rest 22 of us could use one. Would this be a good -- 23 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- point? 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes.
671 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or do you 2 want to -- 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, it would. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- go a 5 little further? 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I -- I have a 7 fair amount to go to cover yet, so -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 9 should take a break. 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right. Mr. 11 Cousins? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may not 13 need a break, but I think the rest of us do. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this all 17 right? Let's take a fifteen (15) minute break. 18 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 19 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:55 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 12:15 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
681 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. Just for the record, before we resume, 3 I've distributed and provided you, Mr. Commissioner, 4 with a copy of several of Mr. Cousins' statements. 5 Mr. O'Marra kindly pointed out that in 6 our Supertext version that's listed in the listed -- of 7 documents at -- at Tab Number 8, that's Inquiry Document 8 Number 500149, that's Mr. Cousins' statement on February 9 20th, 2003, there are several page missing. 10 So a complete version of that statement 11 has been distributed as part of the package that I 12 circulated this morning to all the Parties, and I've 13 provided you with a copy. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Mr. Cousins, just one (1) point of 18 clarification before we continue. Earlier today you 19 were referring to the utility shed at the Park. Did you 20 -- would you also call that the maintenance shed in the 21 Park area? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: Thank you. And you had begun, Mr. 24 Cousins, to tell us about the trip from the area of the 25 barracks to the hospital with you in the back seat of
691 Pierre George's car? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: Did you see any police as you left 4 the Army Camp? 5 A: No, ma'am. 6 Q: Did you see any police cruisers? 7 A: There was police cruisers there on 8 the way out, but there was no cops there. 9 Q: Okay. And where were they on the 10 way out? 11 A: They were towards Highway 21, and... 12 Q: And you didn't see any officers? 13 A: There was no officers there. 14 Q: Did you see any ambulances in the 15 area? 16 A: No, ma'am. 17 Q: And which direction did the car go 18 on leaving the Army Camp? 19 A: I'm not sure of the roads that Wade 20 took heading out that way. I remember being on a dirt - 21 - one (1) of the dirt roads, but I'm not sure of the 22 roads that we took. 23 Q: Okay. And were you focussed on 24 things happening outside the car? 25 A: No, I wasn't.
701 Q: What were you focussed on? 2 A: I was focussed on Dudley; putting 3 pressure on his wound. 4 Q: Okay. Do you recall -- prior to 5 arriving at a hospital -- do you recall any incidents -- 6 anything happening along the way? 7 A: We got a flat tire -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- along the way and Pierre and 10 Cully stopped the car at a farm house; they went to go 11 see if they could use the phone and they were denied to 12 use the phone. 13 I guess they were supposed to be waiting 14 for an ambulance or -- or something and nothing come 15 around and when we took off they were deciding on to go 16 into Sarnia or Strathroy hospital. They eventually -- 17 they decided then to go into Strathroy Hospital. 18 Q: Okay. Just to -- to go back a 19 little bit. When you stopped at the farmhouse, can you 20 recall what road that was on? 21 A: No, I can't. 22 Q: Okay. And you said that Pierre 23 George went to the farmhouse, did Carolyn George also go 24 up to the farmhouse? 25 A: I'm not sure. I think she did.
711 Q: And how far was the -- the car 2 parked from the farmhouse? 3 A: About a hundred (100) metres. 4 Q: And could you hear the conversation? 5 A: No, I couldn't. 6 Q: Okay. Could you see what was 7 happening at the farmhouse? 8 A: No, I wasn't paying attention. I 9 was keeping my concentration on Dudley. 10 Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection or 11 can you remember how long you were stopped at that 12 farmhouse? 13 A: Probably about three (3) to five (5) 14 minutes. 15 Q: Okay. So when you returned to the 16 car -- or when Pierre and perhaps Carolyn George 17 returned to the car, did they talk about an ambulance 18 being on its way? 19 A: I'm not sure of that. 20 Q: All right. You mentioned earlier 21 that you heard Pierre and Carolyn George discussing 22 whether to go to Strathroy or Sarnia? 23 A: Yes, ma'am. 24 Q: Do you recall where that 25 conversation took place?
721 A: In the car along one (1) of the 2 roads. 3 Q: Was the car stopped at the time? 4 A: I think it was shortly after we were 5 at that farmhouse. 6 Q: Okay. And in which -- in the 7 direction of which town did they -- did you eventually 8 go? 9 A: We went to Strathroy. 10 Q: Okay. When you first entered the 11 town of Strathroy, did you see any police? 12 A: No, ma'am. 13 Q: And can you recall what condition 14 Dudley was in at that time? 15 A: He was still conscious, he was still 16 -- still breathing, he was like was panting and his 17 breathing was getting real heavy and deep. 18 Q: But he was still conscious? 19 A: Yes, he was. 20 Q: So I take it you were headed for the 21 hospital in Strathroy? 22 A: Yes, we were. 23 Q: What did you see when you approached 24 the hospital? 25 A: When we approached the hospital
731 there was all kinds of cops on the one (1) side of that 2 parking lot of the hospital. They were all just 3 standing around, there was a bunch of cruisers around 4 there, they were standing around have cigarettes and 5 stuff. 6 When we got to the hospital they pulled 7 Pierre out and then they arrested him on the cement. 8 They took -- they pulled Cully out of the car and then 9 they arrested her over towards the -- like flower bushes 10 and stuff. After they had her on the ground and they 11 arrested her and put them in cruisers and took them away 12 and then I was in the back of the car. 13 I was like trying to help Dudley and that 14 and there was cops sort of like opened up both doors and 15 they were dragging me away from Dudley and that. And 16 when they got me over towards, like, and they tried to 17 arrest me and that and I was squirming around on -- on 18 the ground and I got away from them. 19 I got back to the car and I was trying to 20 help Dudley and he was sitting up, he was starting just 21 to lean over towards the passenger side of the car and I 22 was trying to help him sit back up. And the cops got a 23 hold of me and they handcuffed me and they took me and 24 put me in the back of the cruiser. 25 And when they put me in the back of the
741 cruiser, I was trying to kick at the door and kick at 2 him and they got mad at me and they started hitting me 3 with their billy clubs. They put me in a -- they put a 4 strap around my feet and so I couldn't kick nothing and 5 I was sort of sitting up and then I fell over the back 6 of the cruiser and I couldn't -- couldn't see nothing. 7 Q: Okay. Just to take you back a 8 little bit. When Pierre and -- when you first arrived, 9 did Pierre and Carolyn immediately jump out of the car? 10 Pierre and Carolyn George or were they taken from the 11 car by the police? 12 A: They were taken from the car by 13 officers. 14 Q: Okay. And where were you when this 15 was happening? 16 A: I was in the back seat of the car. 17 Q: Okay. And when you were first 18 approaching, prior to -- just prior to the car stopping 19 and what you've just described, what did you expect to 20 happen when you first arrived at the hospital? 21 A: I expected them -- the people to 22 come out and help us out. Rather than that, they were 23 all just standing around in front of those glass doors. 24 They couldn't come out, because the cops had a 25 galvanized chain with a padlock that went around the
751 doors and they're all just standing there, watching. 2 Q: Okay. And just to go back, what 3 you've described about your -- and we'll talk more about 4 what you saw there in a minute. When the police were -- 5 took you out of the car, you said they pulled you from 6 the car? 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: And you've indicated that you were 9 able to get away from police? 10 A: Yes, I was. 11 Q: And back into the car? 12 A: Back towards the car and then it was 13 like when Dudley was starting to slouch over towards the 14 passenger side of the car. I was helping him sit back 15 up, so -- because he was kind of like choking on his 16 blood. 17 Q: Okay. And when you first arrived at 18 Strathroy where were you sitting in the back seat of the 19 car? 20 A: I was sitting in the middle -- 21 middle of the car, reaching over holding onto Dudley, 22 putting pressure on his wound where the cops shot him. 23 Q: And did you open the -- the car 24 doors or did -- 25 A: No, the cops did.
761 Q: All right. And how did they -- they 2 get you out of the car? 3 A: They dragged me out of the car. 4 Q: What parts of you did they grab? 5 A: They grabbed from the legs and 6 around by my waist and like -- like my arms and that, 7 and it was more or less ripping me from the car. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. How many officers would 9 you say were involved? 10 A: There was four (4) of them. 11 Q: Four (4). Were they the same 12 officers that you'd earlier seen arrest Pierre and 13 Caroline George? 14 A: These are different officers. 15 Q: Okay. And you've indicated that 16 eventually they got you into the back of a police 17 cruiser. Were you handcuffed at that time? 18 A: I was handcuffed with my hands in 19 behind my back. 20 Q: You've also indicated that they'd 21 tied your feet. 22 A: They put like a strap around the 23 bottom of my -- by my ankles and that, and they strapped 24 my feet together so I couldn't kick the door or the 25 windows of the cruiser.
771 Q: Okay. And where you were sitting in 2 the -- in the back of the cruiser? 3 A: I was sitting in behind the driver's 4 side in the back of the cruiser. 5 Q: How many officers were in the car 6 with you? 7 A: Just the one (1). 8 Q: Was that a male or a female officer? 9 A: It was a male officer. 10 Q: Do you remember what he looked like? 11 A: I think he had, like, blond-ish -- 12 blonde -- blond-ish orange hair. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I just seen the back of his head. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. You've also described what 16 you called a galvanized lock? 17 A: A galvanized chain that was around 18 both doors and they had it padlocked. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Now, just to move 20 to a slightly different area. I understand that, from 21 our conversations, that you've had nightmares since that 22 night. 23 A: Yes, ma'am. 24 Q: Okay. And do you see that lock and 25 chain in your nightmares?
781 A: Yes, I do. And I still see -- I 2 still remember them -- all them people from the hospital 3 just standing there, like, standing there in shock and 4 stuff, like they're all standing around wanting to help 5 but they can't. They're locked behind a door. 6 Q: Okay. How often would you say you 7 have these nightmares? 8 A: They occur to me more the -- since 9 I've been made to talk about this. It was like, I 10 normally dream about it, and like that but like since I 11 have to come out to talk about this more and it bugs me. 12 Like, I've never hardly talked about this to nobody. 13 Q: We can appreciate that this is very 14 difficult for you and we're very grateful that you were 15 willing to come and assist. 16 Okay, to take you back to that night, did 17 the officers say anything to you as they were pulling 18 you from the car? 19 A: They said that I was going to be 20 arrested for mischief, assault on a police officer and 21 conspiracy, I -- for attempt -- attempted murder, like, 22 part of a murder. 23 Q: Did they tell you you were under 24 arrest? 25 A: Yes, they did.
791 Q: Okay. And did you say anything to 2 them? 3 A: I was -- I told them that I was 4 fourteen (14) and the cops kept badgering me and stuff. 5 They told me that I was eighteen (18) and I wasn't 6 allowed a phone call; I was not allowed to talk to my 7 parents or nothing. 8 Q: Okay. And if we could talk about 9 the ride in the police car, did that officer say 10 anything to you while you were in the police car? 11 A: He was trying to talk to me. I 12 didn't even want to talk to him, I was just more or less 13 trying to move around in the back of the car and trying 14 to get free. 15 Q: Okay. So, you didn't say anything 16 to them? 17 A: Other than swearing at them. 18 Q: And where did you -- where did you 19 go in the police car? 20 A: Went for -- from the hospital down 21 some -- down some side streets and stuff, then out onto 22 the main drag and they took me over to the -- outside of 23 Strathroy there's a -- there are headquarters out there 24 -- police station. 25 Q: The Stra -- the police station --
801 the OPP station in Strathroy? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. What happened when you 4 arrived? 5 A: They took the strap off my legs, 6 they pulled me out from the back of the cruiser. I was 7 still trying to -- trying to move around and that, and 8 they were using lots of force and I got taken in the cop 9 shop and then I was just given dirty looks all the way 10 through there and that. 11 And then, like, cops looked like they 12 were trying to, like -- like they wanted to spit on you 13 or something and they put me in the far back room. It 14 was a blue room, it had a chair, a table in there and a 15 camera. 16 Q: Okay. And what happened then? 17 A: About ten (10) or fifteen (15) 18 minutes after I was put in there, a couple of officers 19 come -- come in there and they told me to take off my 20 clothes; I refused and tried to fight it -- fighting 21 with them and that and then they restrained me and they 22 made me take off my clothes. They said they were taking 23 my clothes for evidence. 24 Q: Okay. And -- so they took all your 25 clothes?
811 A: They took all my clothes. They left 2 me in that room in just my underwear. 3 Q: Okay. Were you given anything to 4 wear at any point? 5 A: I was given a hospital gown. 6 Q: Were you given any shoes to wear? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And can you describe the hospital 9 gown? 10 A: Blue. 11 Q: And did it cover all of you or -- 12 A: It only covered so much and then -- 13 then a big strip missing down the back that you're 14 supposed to tie it up. 15 Q: Were you given any pants to wear? 16 A: No, ma'am. 17 Q: Okay. Were you able to use the 18 phone at any point? 19 A: Earlier in the morning I was allowed 20 to -- they took me out of my cell and they told me I was 21 allowed to make one (1) phone call. I tried to phone my 22 mother and tell her where I was at and well I got no 23 answer there. 24 And they -- they said I could make one 25 (1) more phone call, so I went to phone my grandmother
821 and I got the numbers mixed up between her number and my 2 cousin Daniel George's number, and I got a hold of his 3 mom and I told her what happened and she said she was 4 going to go down and tell my mom. 5 Q: So, while you were at the -- the 6 entire time while you were at the police station, did 7 you ever get the opportunity to speak to any of your 8 family members by phone? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And did the police officers at the 11 detachment at any point try to get a statement from you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you tell me -- tell us about 14 that? 15 A: They were asking me all kinds of 16 questions and I just kept telling them to 'F' off. 17 Q: Did you give them a statement of any 18 kind, beyond what you've indicated? 19 A: I tried to tell them what happened 20 and all they just kept doing was calling me a liar and 21 told me that I was going to be charged and put in jail. 22 Q: And were you able to sleep at any 23 point that night? 24 A: I dozed off and on. Like I was 25 trying to stay awake sitting at the table. After I was
831 kicking around the table and throwing around the chair 2 in that room. I was -- after I got tired I was sort of 3 like beating on everything in that room and beating on 4 the door and stuff. I got tired and I was like I was 5 starting to get drowsy and I -- I fell asleep a couple 6 of times with my head down on the table. 7 And I was getting, getting mad and then I 8 get back up and them cops come in again and they were 9 trying to get a statement out of me. And I was like 10 trying to throw chairs and stuff at them and they just 11 locked me back up in there and left me in there. 12 Q: Why were you angry? You said -- 13 you've indicated that you were mad. Why were you mad? 14 A: Well, wouldn't you be angry if one 15 (1) of your friends got shot? 16 Q: And at any point did they move you 17 into a cell from that room? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: So you stayed in the same room the 20 entire night? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Did any of the officers 23 throughout the night tell you when you would be 24 released? 25 A: No.
841 Q: Were you able to speak to a lawyer 2 at any point? 3 A: They said I was able to speak to a 4 lawyer and that and I -- I think I was talking to Spike 5 -- Spike George on the phone and that and he said he was 6 going to contact my parents and that was about it. 7 Q: Okay. By Spike George, do you mean 8 Ron George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you speak to him again after 11 that? 12 A: No, I don't think so. 13 Q: Do you recall about what time of day 14 you may have spoken to Mr. George? 15 A: No, I'm not sure. 16 Q: Okay. Prior to you leaving -- 17 before you left the police station, can you recall 18 anything else important that -- that you should tell us 19 about? 20 A: No, ma'am. 21 Q: Do you recall when you were 22 released? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Can you tell us how you were 25 released from the police station?
851 A: I was released with Cully and Pierre 2 and their sister Pamela, and I was brought home with 3 them. 4 Q: And by Cully do you mean Carolyn 5 George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Thank you. And did you have any 8 conversations with the police officers about leaving 9 with your parents or family members? 10 A: They said that I was supposed to be 11 released to just only my family members. But I got 12 released instead Pamela and them and they said they 13 would take me home to my -- my friend. 14 Q: And did you hear any other 15 conversations between Pamela George and the officers or 16 Carolyn and Pierre George and the officers about doing 17 that? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Can you tell us about the trip from 20 Strathroy back -- back to the army camp? 21 A: I was scared, shooken up still, we 22 were on our -- on our way back and we're coming down I 23 think that's the two (2), three (3) roads away from the 24 army camp on the left, roads coming back there. There 25 was cops all over around that back road there. And they
861 stopped -- they stopped Pamela's car and they made 2 Pierre get out of the back seat. 3 There was an officer made him get out, 4 come rushing over and he had a silver and black shotgun 5 and they had that pointed in Pierre's face and told him 6 to get out of the car and then Pierre was telling them 7 that we just come from Strathroy cop shop, phone your 8 detachments or do whatever and then the cop didn't 9 believe him and he just kept pointing that gun in his 10 face and I thought they were going to shoot Pierre too. 11 Q: How were you feeling at that point? 12 A: I felt like they were going to shoot 13 all of us. 14 Q: Were you -- 15 A: I was real scared. 16 Q: And, so, how did that incident end? 17 A: After -- he's still pointing his 18 guns -- gun at Pierre and that. And then after that 19 there was some other cop went over there and he must 20 have radioed back or whatever -- phoned their old cop 21 shop or whatever they did and they told Pierre, Hurry up 22 and go and get in the car and they told him to get out 23 of here. 24 Q: And did you or Pamela George or 25 Carolyn George get out of the car at any point?
871 A: No, ma'am. 2 Q: Okay. And what happened after they 3 told Pierre to get out of there? 4 A: He got back in the car and we 5 proceeded to come back to the Army Camp. 6 Q: What did you see when you returned 7 to the Army Camp? 8 A: As we were coming in to the Army 9 Camp and that, and then we come in, we only pulled up so 10 far. I could probably see probably about three hundred 11 (300) people. 12 Q: All right. Where were they in the 13 Army Camp? 14 A: They were -- they were all standing 15 around by the front gates, all towards that mess hall, 16 the FH club and all that. They were all around the 17 front gates and that. There was all kinds of people. 18 Q: You said "FH Club", what -- what is 19 that? 20 A: Friendship and Honour. 21 Q: All right. And that -- where is 22 that located? 23 A: That's located in one (1) of the, 24 like -- like -- like small brown buildings. 25 Q: Is that in the built-up area at the
881 Army Camp? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: How did you feel about coming back 4 to the Army Camp? 5 A: I felt safe. I was finally home. 6 Q: And, how did you feel about all 7 those people being there? 8 A: I was kind of in shock and I didn't 9 really want to be around with anybody and that and then 10 everybody was, like, all talking and that and I was, 11 like, still -- still upset. 12 And everybody was around there and 13 everybody was talking with everybody and, like, my step- 14 dad went back to Kettle Point and got me some different 15 clothes and stuff. And then I come back and I 16 disappeared and I went and sat on the water tower for a 17 while. 18 Q: What clothes were you wearing when 19 you returned to the Army Camp? 20 A: A hospital gown. 21 Q: Were you wearing any shoes? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And you were still without pants 24 other than your underwear? 25 A: Yes, ma'am.
891 Q: Thank you. Did you return to 2 Kettle Point at any point that evening? 3 A: My mother made me go home down there 4 and, like, I didn't feel safe on Kettle Point. I wanted 5 to come back to the Army Camp, I felt more safer in 6 there than anything. 7 Q: Now, you've referred to your 8 stepfather and your mother, were they at the Army Camp 9 when you arrived? 10 A: Yes, they were. 11 Q: Okay. And, why didn't you feel safe 12 at Kettle Point? 13 A: Hmm? 14 Q: Why -- why did you not feel safe at 15 Kettle Point? 16 A: Well, my stepfather's house -- being 17 in his house, he's got great big bay windows. You can 18 see, like, right across the -- from one (1) -- one (1) 19 side of the lake across and you look the other way and 20 you can look all across the lake and that and there's 21 like -- you can pretty much see right through the house 22 and I didn't feel safe down there. It didn't feel like 23 home. 24 Q: So what did you do? 25 A: I phoned up Wade Thomas and Todd
901 Thomas and they come down to my step-dad's house. They 2 come down there, we got all camouflaged up -- geared up 3 and my mom thought we were in, like, down in the 4 basement and that talking and she had later found out 5 that my bedroom window was open and we disappeared. 6 Q: Where did you go? 7 A: I went back to the Army Camp. 8 Q: How did you go there? 9 A: I went through the bush. 10 Q: About how long did it take you to 11 walk there? 12 A: Probably about an hour. 13 Q: So, what did you do when you got 14 back to the Army Camp? 15 A: Went back and sat on the water 16 tower. 17 Q: Did you sleep that night? 18 A: I slept for a little bit, not much. 19 Q: Okay. In the days immediately after 20 September 6th, can you describe what your state of mind 21 was? 22 A: I was sad; I was going through 23 shock. I couldn't believe that they shot Dudley. I 24 don't tru -- I don't trust no cops whatsoever and I 25 still don't.
911 Q: And were you afraid to leave the 2 Army camp? 3 A: Yes, I was. 4 Q: And how long did it take you to feel 5 safe within the Army Camp? 6 A: Not for a very long time. 7 Q: Okay. Just one (1) moment, Mr. 8 Commissioner. Mr. Cousins... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: All right. I have one (1) more 13 question for you, Mr. Cousins. In your view, is there 14 anything that could have been done or should have been 15 done to prevent what happened in September 1995? 16 A: Yeah. The cops should have stayed - 17 - stayed away -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: They should have never come down 20 towards that Park. That Park should have been given 21 back. That is a burial ground and is sacred to our 22 people. They should have left us alone, let us be. The 23 land should have been returned a long time ago and there 24 would have been -- never been any conference like that. 25 We'd still have our friend and that, and
921 it would be much peacefuller (phonetic). They could 2 have done that a long time ago but the government man 3 rejects and stuff that should have been returned long 4 time ago. They trying to keep it for themselves or 5 something? 6 Q: All right. Mr. Commissioner, if you 7 have no questions, those are all my questions. Thank 8 you, Mr. Cousins. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 10 Thank you very much. I'll go through the routine. 11 Does anybody wish to -- this is your 12 client, is it, Mr. Klippenstein, so you'll go last if 13 you have any questions. 14 Does anybody else have any cross- 15 examination? Ms. Esmonde...? Okay, can we please get a 16 rough estimate. How long do you think you might be? 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Ten (10) or fifteen 18 (15) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Twenty (20) to 21 forty but I'll have a chance during the lunch to review 22 my notes and get my schedule. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Ten (10) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10)
931 minutes? Mr. McGilp...? 2 MR. IAN MCGILP: Forty (40) minutes, 3 forty-five (45) minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 O'Marra...? 6 MR. AL O'MARRA: Ten (10) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Henderson...? 9 MR. BILL HENDERSON: Five (5) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 11 minutes? There's a good chance that we'll finish this 12 afternoon. Can we just stop now? 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 15 for lunch now and come back at two o'clock, to try to 16 complete the cross-examination this afternoon. 17 Okay, Mr. Cousins, thank you. We'll come 18 back this afternoon. 19 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 21 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 12:45 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m. 25
941 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. I understand you have one (1) more question. 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. I know I did 6 say that I was finished with my questions but I have one 7 (1) more question for Mr. Cousins. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: You had indicated that police told 11 you you would be charged with a number of different 12 offences. Were you ever charged? 13 A: No, I wasn't. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. Okay, Ms. Esmonde...? 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 19 Q: Good afternoon. My name is Jackie 20 Esmonde. I'm one (1) of the lawyers representing the 21 Aazhoodena and George Family Group. That includes some 22 of the descendants of Dan and Melva George. 23 I would like to start with just a little 24 piece of housekeeping. I think we're missing a "2" on 25 the map behind you.
951 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ms. Esmonde, we 2 had clarified that. He did mark a "2" and it is slightly 3 obscured by a mark that he made for number 4 after that. 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: So the number 2, 5 that's marking the line along the fence where the police 6 were lying on the ground on the morning of September 6th? 7 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: That's right. 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay, thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 11 Q: I just wanted to get some more 12 details from you on some of the evidence you provided 13 this morning. So I apologize in advance if I seem to be 14 jumping around quite a bit. 15 Now you told us this morning that you 16 heard some police officers saying to Dudley George, 17 You're going to be the first dead Indian? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that was on September 5th? 20 A: Yes, it was. 21 Q: Do you remember when in the day it 22 was that that occurred? 23 A: That was probably early morning. 24 Q: And you -- you gave somewhat of a 25 description of the officer that you saw making those
961 statements. You said he had -- 2 A: Yep. 3 Q: -- red hair. 4 A: A short officer. He had red -- red 5 hair going -- slightly going bald, red moustache and 6 goatee. 7 Q: At the time do you believe you could 8 have recognized him if you'd seen him again? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Would you recognize him today if you 11 saw him again? 12 A: Yes, I would. 13 Q: And do you recall giving several 14 interviews to the SIU? 15 A: Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And you described at some point you 17 told the SIU a description of the person that you saw 18 make that comment to Dudley George? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: Were you ever shown any pictures of 21 any officers? 22 A: No, I wasn't. 23 Q: So you told us about this one (1) 24 incident in which Dudley George was personally threatened 25 by a police officer --
971 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: -- did you witness any other occasion 3 on which Dudley George was personally threatened? 4 A: No, ma'am. 5 Q: I would like to move ahead then in 6 time to the evening of September 6th when the 7 confrontation occurred. You told us that at some point 8 the police came right up to the fence and they were 9 swinging over the fence at people? 10 A: Yes, they were. 11 Q: And you yourself were hit by a police 12 officer during that altercation? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Do you remember seeing Dudley George 15 at that time? Do you know where he was? 16 A: I'm not sure of where he was 17 standing. 18 Q: Okay. Now prior to when you -- you 19 saw the shooting take place, do you remember seeing Mr. 20 George, Mr. Dudley George? 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: And whereabouts did you see him? 23 A: I seen where he fell and he was on 24 the edge of the cement. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall perhaps at the
981 beginning of the altercation, from the beginning of the 2 altercation until that point, do you remember seeing him 3 at any other location? 4 A: In the Park. 5 Q: In the Park? So when the police 6 came, do you know where he was? 7 A: He was along the fence line along 8 with the rest of us. 9 Q: Okay. Was he close to you? 10 A: I'm not quite sure on that. 11 Q: Okay. But you remember seeing him at 12 the fence line at that point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you remember seeing him at any 15 other point? 16 A: I remember when we were fighting with 17 the cops he was there. Everybody was there where we were 18 fighting with the cops. 19 Q: Okay. And was that on the east or 20 west side of the fence? Was that in the sandy parking 21 lot? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: And you told us about what you saw of 24 the -- the beating of Cecil Bernard George. 25 Do you remember today how many officers
991 you saw involved with Cecil Bernard George? 2 A: I think there was about eight (8), 3 eight (8) to ten (10) cops that surrounded him and that 4 were beating on him and kicking him and dragged him away 5 by his hair. 6 Q: Okay. So you saw him surrounded by 7 eight (8) to ten (10) police officers? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: Did those police officers have 10 shields? 11 A: Yes, they did. And billy clubs. 12 Q: They had shields and billy clubs? Is 13 that what you just said? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: And you -- from what you saw, the 16 beating continued as he was being dragged... 17 A: Dragged away down East Parkway Drive. 18 Q: Okay. Now -- and how far away from 19 you did this take place? 20 A: He was in the middle of the -- the 21 sandy parking lot getting the shit kicked out of him, and 22 we were on the other side of the fence. 23 Q: Okay. And did you see the faces of 24 any of the officers who were engaged in that -- 25 A: No, they had, like, there was -- you
1001 know, riot gear, looks like. And they had a face mask 2 and their stupid little helmets on. 3 Q: Okay. So you wouldn't have been able 4 to identify them? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now when you saw Dudley George, at 7 the time that he was shot, did you see anything in his 8 hands? 9 A: No, ma'am. 10 Q: Did you see anything on the ground 11 around him? A stick -- 12 A: Blood. 13 Q: Okay. Did you see -- did you see any 14 objects on the ground? 15 A: There was a -- not quite sure on 16 that. 17 Q: Okay. So you didn't see a gun laying 18 on the ground there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay, now jumping ahead again to the 21 point when you were leaving the Army Base at Stoney Point 22 up at the -- the gate. And you've told us that you 23 didn't see -- you saw some cruisers but you didn't see 24 any police officers, and I was just trying to figure out 25 where you saw the cruisers.
1011 A: That'd be towards Highway 21. 2 Q: Towards Highway 21? 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: Were they on Army Camp Road? 5 A: I'm not sure if they were on Army 6 Camp Road or sitting close to -- they were closer to, I 7 think, to Highway 21. 8 Q: Okay. So -- but it was around that 9 intersection of -- 10 A: Yes, it was. 11 Q: -- Highway 21? Okay. And were they 12 on the side of the road or were they on the road itself? 13 A: I think they were off to the side of 14 the road. 15 Q: And Pierre George's car was not 16 stopped by any police officers? 17 A: No, it wasn't. 18 Q: It wasn't pursued by any police 19 cruisers? 20 A: No, it wasn't. 21 Q: And what was the condition of the car 22 when you arrived at the hospital? 23 A: We had one (1) flat tire. 24 Q: And when did that -- 25 A: Riding on the rim.
1021 Q: And when did that happen? 2 A: Somewhere down the road. 3 Q: While you were driving to the 4 hospital? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you remember if it was before or 7 after you went to the farmhouse? 8 A: I think it was just before getting to 9 the farmhouse, because we blew out that tire. 10 Q: And you've told us about applying 11 pressure to Dudley George's wounds. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What were you using to apply 14 pressure? 15 A: I was using my sweater. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And when you arrived at the hospital 20 and Pierre and Carolyn George were arrested, you've told 21 us that you were assaulted by the police officers. 22 Did you observe anything similar -- any 23 similar treatment towards Pierre or Carolyn George? 24 A: Tossed in the back of the cruiser, 25 slapping, beat with their stupid billy clubs.
1031 Q: And I take it from what you've told 2 us about what happened, you -- it sounded as though the 3 hospital employees were all inside? 4 A: They were all inside by the doors. 5 They looked like they wanted to help but couldn't. 6 Q: Right. So of course you wouldn't 7 have had a chance to speak with any medical personnel 8 about what had happened to Dudley George? 9 A: No. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And when did you last see him? 14 A: It was in the back of the car. 15 Q: Were there -- 16 A: He was -- he was starting to slouch 17 over to the -- like the passenger side of the car. He 18 was starting to fall over and choking on his blood and I 19 -- there was nothing I could do. I was getting taken 20 away by the cops. 21 Q: How long do you think you had been in 22 the hospital parking lot at that -- by that point? 23 A: About five (5) -- five (5) -- ten 24 (10) minutes. 25 Q: And at no point did you see any
1041 police officers or medical personnel assisting Dudley 2 George? 3 A: They didn't help him, they murdered 4 him. 5 Q: Now, on the way to the station, you 6 told us that the -- the driver, I assume, was trying to 7 speak with you on the way to the station? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Was he questioning you or -- 10 A: He was trying to question me and I 11 just kept telling him to 'F' off. 12 Q: And I'm hoping you can help me a 13 little bit with the sequence of events once you arrived 14 at the police station. So, you told us you were taken 15 into a blue room. 16 A: Yes, I was. 17 Q: And there was a video camera in the 18 room. 19 A: There was a video camera in the 20 corner, there was a table like this one here that was in 21 the middle of the room and there was, like, a small 22 plastic chair. 23 Q: Okay. Was that video camera ever 24 used? 25 A: I'm not sure.
1051 Q: While -- while you were in there? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Not that you know of? 4 A: It was just on the wall, am I 5 supposed to see, would they tell me? I don't think so. 6 Q: Okay. So, what happened next, then? 7 They came in and they took your clothing? 8 A: They tried to take my clothing from 9 me, I refused to take my clothing off, then I was forced 10 to take my clothing off. 11 Q: Okay. And were you -- you told us 12 that the police tried to question you in that room? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: And you refused. Was this before or 15 after you were given a chance to call home? 16 A: Before. 17 Q: It was before? Were you ever told 18 that you could speak with a lawyer if you wanted to? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 Q: And when did that happen? 21 A: Later on. I'm not sure what time. 22 Q: Just in terms of the sequence of 23 events, was it before they questioned you or after? 24 A: After they questioned me. 25 Q: Okay. Okay. Were you injured at any
1061 point, either during the altercation down at Stoney Point 2 or at the hospital? 3 A: Bruises, that's about it. 4 Q: You had some bruising? Whereabouts 5 was that? 6 A: I had some on my -- little -- little 7 bit on my legs and my ribs and a little bit around my 8 arms. 9 Q: And, when did you learn what had 10 happened to Dudley George? 11 A: What do you mean by that? 12 Q: When did you learn that he had died? 13 A: When I got home to the Army Base. 14 Q: So, no one told you that while you 15 were at the station? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And, I just had one (1) other 18 question. You've told us that you were afraid to leave 19 the -- the Army Camp for a long time afterwards. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you just tell me why it is you 22 were afraid to leave the Army Camp? 23 A: Well, after -- knowing that Dudley 24 got shot, I was afraid that they were going to come and 25 try and, like, shoot the rest of us and that and it was
1071 like, I'm still terrified of cops. I don't trust them; I 2 couldn't care for them. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Sorry, I just wanted to clarify one 7 (1) other point. Now, you told us that there were, I 8 believe, three (3) different charges that they had told 9 you about and I think you told us that they told you 10 about this at the time of your arrest. 11 A: Hmm hmm. The only thing that I seen 12 on the papers and stuff they -- they left that was there, 13 it says I'd be charged with mischief and they didn't put 14 nothing else in my papers or interview that I was looking 15 at. 16 Q: Right. So, when you were at the -- 17 at the police station, did they say anything to you about 18 whether you had been charged or if they were -- 19 A: They said they were going to charge 20 me, they never did, though. 21 Q: And the only charge that they were 22 speaking about at the police station was mischief? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Just one (1) moment. 25
1081 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you very much 4 for coming here today. Those are all my questions for 5 you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 thank you very much. I think Mr. Henderson is up next? 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, 9 Commissioner. We have no questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 I think the OPP are up next. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 16 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cousins. My name 17 is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm here today on behalf of 18 the OPP. 19 A: On behalf? 20 Q: And I'm going to begin, sir, by 21 asking you to draw back to your recollection of the 22 events of the first day of the Park occupation, which was 23 September the 4th. 24 And you've already told us, sir, that on 25 that day, you did not see a police officer within the
1091 Park property; do I have that correct? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: Okay. And I trust, sir, that you 4 would also agree with me that on the following day, on 5 September the 5th, again at no time did you see a police 6 officer within the Park property? 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: And finally, sir, in respect of the 9 third day, September the 6th, again I'm going to suggest 10 to you that at no time did you see a police officer 11 within the Park property. 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: Thank you. Now, sir, I want to focus 14 on events that took place during what I understand is the 15 early evening of September the 6th. And there are four 16 (4) areas that I want to ask you about. 17 You've already told us today that you saw 18 an incident involving Gerald George and Stuart George in 19 which there was some type of an argument between the two 20 (2) of them and you saw Stewart George punch Gerald 21 George? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: All right. I'm going to suggest to 24 you, sir, and -- actually, let me back up a minute 25 because it would be helpful to know the timing of that
1101 incident. 2 A: I don't know the time. 3 Q: All right. I anticipate that we're 4 going to hear that it occurred not long before 8:00 p.m. 5 that night. Does that assist you in any way? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I didn't have a watch. I didn't have 9 the time. 10 Q: I'm just asking you, sir, if that 11 would refresh your memory. You'd agree with me, sir, 12 from the time that you spent at the Park between the 4th 13 and the 6th, that was the first time you ever saw a 14 physical confrontation between one (1) of the Park 15 occupiers and somebody who was not a police officer? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: Thank you. You also told us today 18 that you were asked to build up the fires that evening, 19 so that they would be nice and big, I think were the 20 words that you used this morning. Do you recall that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us, and you may have 23 already done so, and I apologize, but can you tell us who 24 it was that directed you to build up the fires? 25 Do you remember at this point?
1111 A: There was quite a few people that 2 told me to build up the fire. We needed light. There 3 was no lights around there. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: We make fires, you have the light. 6 Q: And I'm asking you, sir, who was it 7 who told you to build up the fires? And if you can't 8 recall, that's fine. 9 A: I can't really recall that. 10 Q: Okay. You'd agree with me, though, 11 that this was the first time during the course of the 12 three (3) days of the occupation of the Park that someone 13 had told you to make the fires bigger? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. Third point I want 16 to raise with you. You told us today, and again I'm 17 sorry, the issue about the fires, that also occurred in 18 the early evening of September the 6th, when you -- 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: Thank you, all right. Now, third 21 point. You told us that a number of individuals at the 22 Park said that it was necessary to have the women and 23 children removed from the Park area. 24 Do you recall telling us that this 25 morning?
1121 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: And in particular you mentioned that 3 Roderick George had said that. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you also told us that Dudley 6 George had said that. 7 A: The point is? 8 Q: Sir, it's my job to ask the questions 9 and your job to answer them. 10 A: That's what I was doing. 11 Q: What I want to say to you, sir, is 12 that I trust you agree with me that the first time you 13 ever heard anybody within the Park say it was necessary 14 to move the women and the children out was the early 15 evening of September the 6th? 16 A: Yes, it was. 17 Q: Fourth point I want to raise with 18 you. You told us earlier that there was some discussions 19 about the collection of sticks and rocks in an effort to 20 prepare for defence I gather is your evidence? 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: And that occurred again in the early 23 evening of September the 6th? 24 A: Yes, it was. 25 Q: And we've already heard some
1131 evidence, sir, that just before -- when I say just 2 before, within an hour or so of the altercation between 3 Stewart George and Gerald George, there were certain Park 4 occupiers seen in the sandy parking lot outside of the 5 fence carrying sticks or clubs. 6 Can you assist us as to whether or not you 7 saw any such individuals in that parking lot? 8 A: We were in -- in behind the fence. 9 Q: You were in behind the fence. We've 10 actually heard evidence, sir, that there were individuals 11 outside of the fence in the parking lot in the early 12 evening. 13 A: Well, I'm sorry for your evidence 14 that you were hearing, I'm just here to tell you what I 15 seen and what I seen is what I'm telling you. Nothing 16 else. 17 Q: That's all we want to hear, sir. So 18 I trust then that your evidence is that at no time did 19 you see any of the Park occupiers in the early evening of 20 September the 6th standing in the sandy parking lot armed 21 with sticks or bats? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Thank you. You told us today, sir, 24 that when you arrived at the Strathroy Hospital, you 25 noticed that the hospital doors were locked with a
1141 galvanized chain and a padlock. 2 A: Yes, there was. 3 Q: And I trust, sir, that it is your 4 belief that it was the police who put that lock and chain 5 in place? 6 A: Well, who else would? 7 Q: I'm again, sir, going to remind you 8 that it's my job to ask the questions and your job to 9 answer them. 10 A: I just answered. 11 Q: Did you see a police officer? 12 A: No, I never. I just seen the chain 13 there. 14 Q: Thank you. I trust that you have a 15 very clear picture of the chain and lock in your head? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: And I trust, sir, that that image of 18 the chain and the lock that you see, you also see in the 19 nightmares that you've described. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You spoke, sir, with the SIU on 22 January the 20th, 1996. 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And you may recall, sir, that that 25 interview was audio taped.
1151 A: I know that. 2 Q: Okay. There's a book in front of 3 you, a binder, and at Tab 6, sir, is a typed transcript 4 of that interview, could you turn to it please? 5 Q: Sure. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: During that interview, sir, you were 10 asked a variety of questions and you gave a variety of 11 answers; correct? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: And if you turn, sir, to Page 10 of 14 that statement, or transcript rather -- 15 A: They don't have numbers on them. 16 Q: At the very bottom they might have 17 numbers -- not at the top, the bottom? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Okay. Now this was the page within 20 that transcript where I noted that you had referred to 21 your arrival at the hospital. And I want to take you to 22 a particular passage, which is about one-third (1/3) in 23 from the top of the page. And Officer Kennedy asks you 24 the question: 25 "Is there anything else you feel you
1161 should add to this statement that you 2 could think of right now that we should 3 know?" 4 Do you see where I'm reading from, Mr. 5 Cousins? 6 A: I know exactly where you're reading 7 from. 8 Q: Good. And you reply as follows 9 according to the transcript: 10 "When we were taking Dudley to the 11 hospital, they had a bunch of cops out 12 there and they didn't even take him to 13 the hospital, they just left him there 14 and he was still alive. And I was 15 trying to put pressure on his wound 16 where he got shot." 17 The officer goes on: 18 "You were in the car when he was taken 19 to the hospital." 20 And then you reply, according to the 21 transcript: 22 "Yep, there was his brother, Pierre and 23 Cully, and took Cully and Pierre and 24 had them on cement and same with me 25 when they got me out of the car."
1171 The officer then moves on to a different 2 area of questioning. 3 Do you recall being asked those questions 4 and giving those answers? 5 A: Yes, I do. 6 Q: And you'd agree with me, sir, that at 7 no point do you volunteer the detail that the police had 8 locked the hospital doors with a chained -- 9 A: Why should I? It was a touchy 10 subject and it still is. 11 Q: I'm sorry, it's a touchy subject? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: Why would it be a touchy subject? 14 A: I have nightmares about this, you 15 don't. You weren't there. 16 Q: You're right, I wasn't there. Had 17 you recalled, when you were giving this statement, the 18 detail that you told us about today? Or is this a detail 19 that has come to mind many years after the fact? 20 A: No, it was always there, I just 21 didn't trust the people that I was talking to. Even 22 though I had my stepfather there, I didn't trust nobody. 23 It was even a hard time then trying to tell them 24 everything and some parts I left out and I didn't -- I 25 didn't tell them. I only told them certain parts and I
1181 told my step-dad that and he says, Okay. 2 Q: Okay. So, you agree with me then 3 that at no point on that particular day during the course 4 of that interview do you reveal that detail? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: Okay. You gave another statement to 7 the police on March the 26th, 1998 and a -- a transcript 8 of that interview appears at Tab 7 of the binder in front 9 of you. 10 And I'm not really going to ask you many 11 questions about this particular statement because it 12 focuses on your knowledge of the altercation between 13 Cecil Bernard George and the police and it would appear 14 that you don't even get into the issue of your trip and 15 your arrival at the hospital. Okay? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: However, you do give one (1) further 18 interview, not to the SIU., but to other police. 19 Correct? You may not recall this. 20 A: No, I do not recall. 21 Q: All right. At Tab 8 of your 22 materials, you'll notice that there is a transcript, 23 which I understand is of a taped interview by 24 investigators with the Coroner's office. 25 Does that refresh your memory?
1191 A: Yes, I remember now, the cops picked 2 me up and -- they come from both ways, they picked me up 3 on the reserve. I didn't know what I did, I got put in 4 the back of a cruiser and I got tooken to Kettle Point 5 cop shop. They didn't tell me what for or nothing. 6 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Sir, if you turn to page 1 of that 11 transcript. You're interviewed by two (2) officers, a 12 Detective Armstrong and a Detective Sergeant Roselli 13 (phonetic). 14 Do you recall two (2) officers being 15 present? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: And if you -- 18 A: There was four (4) of them. 19 Q: There were four (4) present? 20 A: There was four (4) present. There 21 was a Kettle Point cops and they left the room and then 22 they got -- I got left there with the other two (2) and 23 the Kettle Point cops kept moving back and forth. 24 Q: You go to the bottom of Page 1 of the 25 transcript, Mr. Cousins. Detective Armstrong says the
1201 following to you: 2 "Just to let you know, for the record, 3 the purpose of our investigation is 4 Regional Coroner, Dr. Tom Wilson, 5 ordered one and has asked me to conduct 6 an investigation into the events 7 relating to Anthony Dudley George's 8 death, specifically from the point and 9 time where he was shot until he was 10 pronounced dead at the Strathroy 11 Middlesex General Hospital, and to 12 examine the events in that time frame 13 to see if anything could have been done 14 differently that would have changed the 15 outcome for him. 16 Do you understand what my investigation 17 is looking at?" 18 And your response is: 19 "Kind of." 20 And the officer goes on to say: 21 "Okay, if you have any questions at any 22 time, feel free to ask me. Just stop - 23 - feel free to ask. Just stop me and 24 I'll try to explain the best I can." 25 And then you reply:
1211 "Okay." 2 You recall being told that at the 3 beginning of the interview? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: All right. Now, -- 6 A: It's a couple of years ago but I kind 7 of remember. 8 Q: Good. If I could take you to page 22 9 of the transcript of that interview. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And I'm going to ask you, sir, if you 14 look at Page 22 starting at the bottom. Detective 15 Armstrong says to you: 16 "Okay, when you get to the hospital, 17 tell me what happens when you get in 18 there." 19 And then over the course of the next page 20 and half to almost two (2) pages, you give an account of 21 what occurred when you arrived and what you observed. 22 A: Maybe I didn't tell him everything. 23 Q: Then you've anticipated my next 24 question, because you'll agree with me, sir, at no point 25 do you refer to the hospital doors being locked with a
1221 chain and a padlock. 2 A: Yes, ma'am. I know that. 3 Q: Or that the police had anything to do 4 with it, right? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Knowing that these officers were 11 particularly interested in the events between the 12 shooting of Dudley George and the point where, 13 regrettably, he lost his life. 14 A: But the issue is I couldn't trust 15 them, so I can't tell them everything. 16 Q: Okay. Sir, I'm going to suggest to 17 you, and I anticipate, sir, that we're going to hear from 18 a variety of other witnesses who were at the hospital 19 when the car that you were in arrived, and I anticipate 20 that no one else is going to refer to a galvanized chain 21 and a padlock. 22 A: Well, then they'd be lying to you. 23 Q: Okay. We have your answer on that. 24 Sir, it's quite clear you've been through a great deal in 25 all of this.
1231 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: And if I were to suggest to you that 3 -- that this detail is something that has come to you in 4 a dream, as opposed to reality, and I don't say that as a 5 criticism, but I'm suggesting to you that this is 6 something that is part of a terrible nightmare that you 7 have found yourself in. 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: You don't think so? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Possible? 12 A: No. It's not possible. I know what 13 I seen. 14 Q: The three (3) other aspects, sir, of 15 your evidence that I want to ask you about. You've 16 claimed today that during the altercation by the sandy 17 parking lot which culminated in the shooting of Dudley 18 George, you saw the car of, I believe you described him 19 as, Waldo, you're referring to Warren George? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: Okay. You saw that car leave the 22 Park, come into the sandy parking lot and then reverse 23 back into the Park and it was after the car had done that 24 that you noticed the school bus drive out of the Park 25 into the parking lot?
1241 A: They were both out there pretty much 2 at the same time. 3 Q: So now it's -- 4 A: One follows at -- like the car come 5 out and then it was the bus coming afterwards. The car's 6 coming in and then the bus was backing up to come back 7 into the Park. 8 Q: Okay. My -- my question to you, sir, 9 is that it was the car that you saw leave first followed 10 by the bus. 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: All right. And you're quite certain 13 of that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as certain of that as you are of 16 the existence of the padlock and the chain on the 17 hospital door? 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: I want to be fair to you, Mr. 20 Cousins, because I -- all the evidence that we've heard, 21 there's been many inconsistencies amongst the witnesses 22 but one (1) consistency that we've seen is that the bus 23 leaves the Park first followed by the car. 24 And it may be that your recollection is 25 different and we'll respect that. Is that the case?
1251 A: Maybe. 2 Q: Okay. You've also claimed today, 3 sir, that the confrontation that you saw between Gerald 4 George and Stewart George took place at the fence line -- 5 the fence that separates the sandy parking lot from the 6 Park itself. Do you recall that evidence? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And you also told us that at the time 9 that Stewart George hit Gerald George, Stewart George was 10 behind the fence line? 11 A: Yes, he was. 12 Q: And you've also told us that at the 13 time Gerald George was outside of his car. He was not 14 seated in the car. 15 A: No, he wasn't. How could he be 16 seated in the car and still be against the fence line? 17 Q: Well, again, sir, I'll be asking the 18 questions and you can answer them. But this is what I 19 want to get at. Again, you're quite certain about the 20 details that you've relayed to us about this incident? 21 A: I just remember seeing him getting 22 punched. I don't remember not much after that. 23 Q: Well, are you still certain that 24 Stewart George was behind the fence at the time that Mr. 25 George, Gerald George was punched?
1261 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And are you still certain that 3 at the material time Gerald George was not in his car? 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: All right. And I gather, sir, you 6 are as certain as that as you are of the existence of the 7 chain and padlock on the hospital door? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: Thank you. And again, sir, to be 10 fair to you, we have heard from other witnesses including 11 Stewart George, that that altercation took place right at 12 the edge near the pavement where the pavement and the 13 sandy parking lot meet. And that during the incident, 14 Gerald George remained in his car. 15 And I further anticipate, sir, that when 16 Gerald George testifies that he would likely testify in a 17 similar fashion that he remained in his car at all times. 18 And that Stewart George came out towards him right in 19 that area of the edge between the tarmac and the sandy 20 parking lot. 21 A: Well, maybe I might be a little bit 22 lost in my thoughts but I'm trying to remember as much as 23 I can. 24 Q: And it's been a long time ago. 25 A: It's been nine (9) years.
1271 Q: And you've been through an awful lot 2 in the interim period. 3 A: Yes, I have. 4 Q: Yes, you have. You've also claimed 5 today about the existence of an entry wound to Dudley 6 George's body, but also the existence of an exit wound. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And again, you're quite sure that 9 there was an exit wound at the -- on his back? 10 A: Yes, there was. 11 Q: Because you saw it? 12 A: I didn't see it, it was, like, when I 13 was putting pressure on his wound and stuff and I would, 14 like, to hold him up, I grabbed from behind, too. And 15 when I was putting pressure from the front to the -- to 16 his rear of his back like that, it was like, if you put 17 pressure on the front you'd be getting blood all over the 18 front of you. 19 Like, when you grab him from behind to 20 hold him up like that and stabilize him and put more 21 pressure on him like that, I had blood -- blood all on 22 this side. There's only one (1) way you can get blood on 23 the other side, if the bullet goes right through. 24 Q: Sir, I -- sir, I anticipate that 25 we're going to hear medical evidence which confirms that
1281 there was no exit wound. And again, I -- I want to be 2 fair to you so that you have the benefit of other 3 information such that it may refresh your memory. 4 Does that change your evidence? 5 A: This is my first time talking about 6 this. I don't talk about this to nobody. 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Cousins, for your time. Those are my questions, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 Mr. McGilp on behalf of the OPPA. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 16 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cousins, my -- my 17 name is Ian McGilp and as the Commissioner indicated I'm 18 one (1) of the lawyers who represent the OPP Association. 19 First of all, sir, you know, I apologize. 20 I realize you're not comfortable talking about this 21 incident. I realize it's very difficult for you and I 22 regret the fact that I have to ask you some questions 23 about it, but the Commission's mandate, as you may know, 24 is to find out -- is to examine all the circumstances 25 that led up to the unfortunate shooting and death of
1291 Dudley George and to make recommendations that might 2 prevent such a thing from happening again. 3 So, we're all here for the purpose of 4 trying to find out exactly what happened and how to 5 prevent it from happening again. And I would ask your 6 indulgence if you would help us as -- I know you're 7 helping us as best you can and I'm -- I guess I'm 8 apologizing for keeping you here any longer, but I hope 9 you'll cooperate with us in that spirit. 10 The first question I have, sir, is I 11 believe you told my Friend, Ms. Henshel -- 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Hensel. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 15 Q: Hensel, I'm sorry -- this morning 16 that you -- you are sometimes known as James Thomas 17 George, rather than J. T. Cousins. Is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I believe that when you were 20 arrested at the Strathroy -- Strathroy hospital that day, 21 you identified yourself to the police officers as James 22 Thomas J. George. Is that correct? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: Thank you. I just wanted to make 25 sure that that was the same person. And just one (1)
1301 other question about names, sir, you spoke several times 2 today about Wade Thomas -- is that W-A-D-E Thomas? 3 A: W-A-D-E? Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And is that the same or a 5 different person from Kevin Thomas? 6 A: That is a different person. 7 Q: That's a different person? Okay. 8 A: That's his nephew. 9 Q: Now you indicated this morning, sir, 10 that when you entered the Park on September the 4th, you 11 entered through the gate. I take it, it's the gate that 12 runs off Matheson Drive, is that correct? 13 A: Into the Park? No, I entered from 14 the far side of the Park down towards the beach area. 15 Q: And that's the -- let's see if I can 16 do as well as the others with the directions. That's the 17 -- that's the east side of the Park, is it? 18 A: I'm not sure for directions and that. 19 I don't know what you guys are talking about, I know 20 where it's at, though. 21 Q: We're -- we're all having trouble 22 with those directions. The -- in -- in any event, it's 23 not the gate that runs off of -- 24 A: It's not the gateway that runs off 25 that road there, it's on the far side.
1311 Q: No, it's -- it's on the other side of 2 the Park, yes. Now, we've heard evidence previously, 3 sir, that you -- you said this morning that the Park 4 staff opened that gate for you? 5 A: Yes, they did. 6 Q: Now we've heard evidence on other 7 occasions from other witnesses, and Mr. Marlin Simon on 8 September the 30th, told us that he held the chain on 9 that gate while Nick Cotrelle used a pair of bolt cutters 10 to cut the chain. 11 And David George, who was also there, said 12 that someone cut the chain. He didn't say who, but that 13 there were police officers inside the -- inside that gate 14 and that when they saw the bolt cutters come out, they 15 said you better not do that. 16 And that someone went ahead and cut that 17 chain with a pair of bolt cutters. 18 Do you -- do you remember seeing that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And that does not help your memory -- 21 refresh your memory that -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- Marlin said he held the -- the 24 chain while Nick cut the -- the chain? Okay, sir, thank 25 you.
1321 Could you describe the person who opened 2 the gate? 3 A: There was -- I'm not sure what he 4 looked like. He was just wearing, like, the -- he was 5 wearing like a green uniform. 6 Q: A Ministry of Natural Resources 7 uniform? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was there one (1) or more than 10 one (1)? 11 A: There was two (2) of them. 12 Q: Two (2) of them? And did they say 13 anything to you? 14 A: They didn't say much. They just more 15 or less took off. 16 Q: And -- but you said they opened the 17 gate to let you in. I mean, did they say, here, come on 18 in or anything to that effect? 19 A: The gate was open and they were gone 20 and then we were in there, checking everything out. 21 Q: Were there still day campers in the 22 Park at that time on September the -- 23 A: No, there wasn't. 24 Q: -- 4th? There were no camp -- no 25 people in the Park other than you and the other people
1331 who occupied the Park? Is that your evidence? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Were you aware that the Park had 4 closed on September the 3rd for overnight camping? Had 5 you heard that? Had anybody -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: No? So as far as you knew, the Park 8 was still open? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: You're not sure about that. 11 A: I'm not sure. I don't pay attention 12 to it. 13 Q: But in any event, you don't believe 14 there were any day campers or day users -- 15 A: There was nobody in the Park. 16 Q: -- in the Park? Thank you, sir. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, I have a couple of questions, 21 sir, about the -- the incident that occurred that I 22 believe you witnessed when the -- you said the police 23 cruisers rammed the picnic tables out in the sandy 24 parking lot outside the Park fence? 25 A: Yes.
1341 Q: And I believe you said that there 2 were two (2) cruisers came into that area. Is that 3 correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did one (1) or both of those 6 cruisers strike the picnic tables? 7 A: I'm not sure if they both did or not. 8 I just remember that one (1) cruiser hitting against that 9 -- in the picnic tables and they use it like a battering 10 ram. 11 Q: So that's what you recall, is one (1) 12 cruiser hitting that table and using it, as you say, like 13 a battering ram? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And do you recall whether the 16 police said anything to you to the people who were 17 present at that scene at that time -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- when they first approached? We've 20 heard evidence from a couple of witnesses, sir, that 21 Marlin Simon and -- told us that the OPP told him to get 22 back into the Park and I think Mr. Buck Doxtator said 23 that the police told him that you're trespassing and you 24 should get out of here. 25 Do you recall the police saying anything
1351 to that effect to the people? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You don't recall that? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now I'm hoping, sir, that you can 8 help me a little bit with the sequence of events that 9 happened on the night of September the 6th, that led up 10 to the unfortunate death of Dudley George. 11 I understand that first of all, you say 12 that Cecil Bernard George goes over the fence and out 13 into the sandy parking lot and that the police surround 14 him immediately; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, in your statement to the SIU on 17 January the 20th of 1996, and I'm just going to take you 18 to a very brief passage, you say that -- you say the 19 following: 20 "Slippery went out there and he started 21 telling them that it was our land and 22 he was out there with his staff --" 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page 24 are you reading from? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, can you
1361 tell us all what passage it is? 2 MR. IAN MCGILP: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I 3 apologize. This is the anticipated evidence of James 4 Thomas Cousins on January the 20th -- January the 20th, 5 1996. I'm on page 4 and the Document Number is 1001998. 6 Thank you, Katherine. No, it's okay. I think it's all 7 right. Does he have this at Tab 2? Tab 6 of your book 8 if you care to look at it. It's at page 4. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 11 Q: And you say: 12 "Slippery went out there and he started 13 telling them that it was our land and 14 he was out there with his staff out 15 there and they just come charging at 16 him, circled around him, about fifteen 17 (15) of them in a circle. 18 They start beating him with their billy 19 clubs and then we tried to go out there 20 and help him and they forced us back in 21 towards the fence. 22 Q: When you refer to out there, what 23 do you mean? 24 A: Outside of the fence at the Park." 25 Now the question I have, sir, is in that -
1371 - in that passage you indicate to the SIU officers that 2 when Cecil was -- Bernard George was surrounded by the 3 police, a number of occupiers went over the fence into 4 the sandy parking lot to try and help him. 5 Was that an accurate -- 6 A: Inaccurate. 7 Q: I'm sorry, "inaccurate"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That -- your recollection today is 10 that that was wrong, is that what you're saying? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: So at the point that Cecil Bernard 13 George is surrounded by the police, were there any 14 occupiers outside the fence? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. Now I'm going to ask you -- I'm 17 going to take you again, sir, very briefly to the -- to 18 the occasion when you were interviewed by Detectives 19 Armstrong and Roselli from the coroner's office. I 20 believe you were looking at that -- you were taken to 21 that interview previously. 22 And for the benefit of Counsel, this is 23 Document 5000149 and I would ask you to turn, sir, to 24 page 6 or I'm going to take you to page 6 of that 25 document. It's at Tab 8 of your book if you care to
1381 look. 2 And I'm reading about approximately a 3 third of the way down the page. You say: 4 "There was a three (3) or four (4) 5 lines that coming running at us and 6 they start fighting down there and 7 that. Everybody was all sitting in 8 there like that and everybody was 9 fighting there like that and I was over 10 up to the corner over here beside 11 Dudley. We were sitting around, he was 12 getting mad at me, telling me to get 13 back on the bus." 14 Now it's clear that on that occasion you 15 told those investigators that as the fighting started you 16 were standing near or next to Dudley George and that 17 Dudley told you to get back on the bus. 18 Was that an accurate statement as to the 19 best of your recollection today, was it -- were you 20 correct when you told that to the -- 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: So that you were inside the fence 23 standing with Dudley George as the fight is going -- as 24 the fight is commencing; is that right? 25 A: Yes.
1391 Q: Thank you, sir. Do you remember 2 where you were along the fence line when Dudley told you 3 to get back on the bus? 4 A: I'm not quite sure. I think I was 5 pretty close to that twirl gate. 6 Q: To the turnstile area there? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. I'm not sure what you said 9 this morning so I'm going to ask you a question or two 10 (2) if I may about the bus and its travel. I -- I'm not 11 sure, did you say this morning -- did you tell us this 12 morning that the bus got out onto the pavement? That 13 the -- 14 A: I seen it out in the sandy parking 15 lot, I didn't say on the pavement. 16 Q: Do you know whether the bus actually 17 got as far as the pavement? 18 A: I'm not sure. 19 Q: You're not sure, you didn't see that. 20 And your evidence is that the shots are -- you first hear 21 the shots when the bus is back in the sandy parking lot 22 and I forget which number you marked on the map, but did 23 you mark a number on the map -- 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: -- where the bus was located when the
1401 shots -- when you first heard the shots? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And was that -- could you just help 4 my memory? Do you remember which mark it was? 5 A: Number 8. 6 Q: Number 8? Now, we've heard evidence 7 again, in the spirit of -- of Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson who 8 spoke to you previously. I want to be fair to you and -- 9 and let you know that a number of other witnesses have 10 said that the bus was somewhere out on the pavement when 11 the shots started. 12 And Mr. Warren George whom you know drove 13 the car out of the Park that night, said that he followed 14 the bus out of the Park, that the bus reached the point 15 that is more or less opposite that large driveway on East 16 Parkway Drive. It's number 6842 on that map behind you. 17 And that he driving -- Warren George 18 driving the car, pulled up just behind or was just behind 19 the bus and at that point he sees a police officer with a 20 gun pointed at him. So he swerved his car to the right 21 to avoid getting shot, that at that point he struck a 22 number of police officers who wound up on the hood of his 23 car. 24 And at that point he jams it into reverse 25 and just at that time he hears the shots. This officer
1411 that had been standing in front of him took, I believe he 2 said, four (4) or five (5) shots at the car. 3 So, Mr. Warren George told the Commission 4 that the shots start when the car is up very close to 5 that first driveway or that wide driveway that exits 6 directly off East Parkway Drive. Does that help you at 7 all in your recollection of events? 8 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 9 Commissioner, I'm sorry, I -- I just found the question 10 quite lengthy and unclear as to what its purpose was and 11 I would just ask if it could be as clear as possible; 12 that's all I'm asking. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you have 14 any problem understanding the question? Would you like 15 the question to be broken down or -- 16 THE WITNESS: I'd like the question to be 17 repeated, please. 18 MR. IAN MCGILP: I'll do it much more 19 briefly. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 22 Q: Mr. Warren George tells us that he 23 drives the car behind the bus out to that driveway that 24 I've been describing, the one numbered 6842 on the map 25 and that the shots start when his car is out at that
1421 driveway or just before that driveway. 2 You have told the Commission that you 3 hear -- 4 A: It happened so quick. 5 Q: It happened very quickly and I 6 understand that and we've heard inconsistency as Ms. 7 Tuck-Jackson indicated from different witnesses. And -- 8 and I'm sure the Commissioner understands that, that 9 people will have different recollections. 10 I just want to be fair to you and indicate 11 to you that Warren George told the Commission that the 12 shots started when he was out by that driveway in the 13 car. You've told the Commission that you don't hear 14 shots until the bus is back in the sandy parking lot 15 closer to the fence than the pavement, I would say by the 16 mark on the map. 17 And I'm just wondering whether or not 18 Warren George's evidence helps you at all in remembering 19 when you first heard the shots and if it doesn't help 20 you, sir, if your recollection is as you've told us then 21 please say so. 22 A: I'm trying to tell you as best of my 23 knowledge. 24 Q: I appreciate that very much, sir, and 25 that's your evidence is that you remember them back in
1431 the parking lot and not -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you. You said that you heard 4 the bus backfire; is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And where were you standing when you 7 heard that; do you recall? 8 A: Somewhere in the parking lot. 9 Q: Somewhere in the parking lot? Do you 10 remember if you were in front of the bus or behind -- 11 A: I was off to the driver's side of the 12 bus. 13 Q: On -- off to the driver's side? 14 A: Driver's side. I was more towards 15 the rear of the tire -- back tire. 16 Q: So you were quite close to the bus? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you remember which way you were 19 facing? 20 A: I was facing towards the roadway. 21 Q: Towards East Parkway Drive? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And is it possible, sir, that the 24 sound you heard from the bus, that you attributed to be a 25 backfire, it is possible that it was a gunshot?
1441 A: Could have been. 2 Q: Thank you, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now you've told us this morning that 7 on the trip to the hospital, with you sitting in the back 8 seat with Dudley George, that you stopped at a farmhouse 9 and that the people in the house denied you access to the 10 phone; is that correct? 11 A: I'm not sure what happened between 12 them guys and the phone call and that. I just remember 13 Pierre getting mad about it and -- and I was just mostly 14 concentrating on Dudley. 15 Q: I understand -- 16 A: I didn't pay too much attention to 17 nothing else. 18 Q: I should tell you that we have not 19 heard from Carolyn George or Pierre George yet, but based 20 on their statement and interview with the SIU 21 investigators, we anticipate that Carolyn George will say 22 that when she went to the door and asked the people to 23 phone an ambulance they did so. 24 And in fact, that they even -- she asked 25 them to confirm that the ambulance had been dispatched,
1451 and they did confirm to her that one had been dispatched. 2 And Mr. Pierre George will -- will also 3 say that they asked the people to phone an ambulance and 4 they did. 5 So that isn't really inconsistent with 6 what you've told us today, because what you've told us 7 today, as I understand it, is that you didn't hear that 8 conversation and you don't really -- 9 A: I was in the car. 10 Q: You weren't there. 11 A: I wasn't there. 12 Q: So your evidence -- you -- you 13 wouldn't want to contradict what Carolyn and Pierre said 14 about that, would you? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, there's another 17 matter. When you arrive at the -- at the hospital, you 18 said that they pulled Pierre George out of the car and 19 that they pulled Carolyn George out of the car; is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now I should tell you that Carolyn 23 George told the SIU investigators that she jumped out of 24 the car, ran around the back and started pulling Dudley 25 George out of the back seat. And that it was at that
1461 point that the police grabbed her and arrested her. 2 And Mr. Pierre George also says to the -- 3 tells the SIU and I should indicate that, for the benefit 4 of Counsel, that Carolyn George's statement to the SIU is 5 Document Number 1002000 and Pierre George's interview 6 with the SIU is Document 1002280. 7 And Mr. Pierre George also says that he 8 got out of the car himself, ran around to the back door 9 and tried to help Dudley. And it was at that point that 10 he gets grabbed by the police and arrested. 11 Does that assist your memory at all, that 12 Carolyn and Pierre both said they exited the vehicle by 13 themselves and went around to the back and tried to help 14 Dudley? 15 A: Maybe they did. I'm not sure. 16 Q: Thank you, sir. When you were 17 arrested, and -- and taken to the Strathroy Detachment, 18 you said this morning that your clothes were taken from 19 you by force; is that correct? 20 A: They made me take off my clothes. 21 Q: The two (2) police officers who we 22 anticipate we're going to hear evidence from, two (2) 23 police officers who were involved with that -- with -- 24 with you at the Strathroy Detachment, that Sergeant 25 Michael Harwood, we anticipate is going to say that you
1471 initially refused to provide your clothing but that after 2 appeals from himself and another officer, that you agreed 3 to do so and did voluntarily provide your clothing. 4 And Constable Martin who was also there, 5 also says essentially the same thing, that you initially 6 refused to provide your clothing but that after some 7 discussion, you agreed to provide it. 8 A: Forced. 9 Q: Could you describe the force that was 10 applied to take your clothing? 11 A: Made to sit in the chair, made to 12 take my sweater off and then they said if I didn't take 13 off my pants and -- they'd take them off me. So that's 14 force. 15 Q: So they didn't physically re -- the 16 police officers did not physically remove your clothing. 17 They told you that if you didn't provide it voluntarily, 18 they would have to take it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I see. Just for the benefit of 21 Counsel, Sergeant Harwood's statement is Document 2003570 22 and Constable Martin's statement is 2003708. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1481 MR. IAN MCGILP: Mr. Cousins, I greatly 2 appreciate your co-operation. I know it's difficult for 3 you and you've been very helpful. Those are my 4 questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. McGilp. 7 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 9 Hourigan...? 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 12 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cousins. My name 13 is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one (1) of the lawyers who's 14 acting for the former Premier, Mike Harris. I only have 15 a couple of very short questions for you. 16 You indicated on the evening of September 17 the 4th, 1995, that you stayed in the Park all night and 18 that you stayed up all night, into the early morning 19 hours of September 5th. Do I have that correct? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: And do you recall David George being 22 in the Park with you as well, that evening? 23 A: I'm not quite sure. 24 Q: Okay. When you were staying up in 25 the Park, do you recall where you were in the Park?
1491 A: Towards that store. There was a 2 store in the Park. 3 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, there 4 was a fire close to the Park store. 5 A: Yes, there was. 6 Q: And is that where you spent most of 7 the evening? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: Okay. Now do you know who Vince 10 George is? 11 A: No. 12 Q: On the evening of September the 4th, 13 when you were staying up in the Park, do you recall 14 anybody discussing the presence of an OPP officer or an 15 MNR -- MNR personnel coming to the Park and trying to 16 serve the occupants with some documents? 17 A: No, ma'am. 18 Q: Okay. At any point during the time 19 that you were in the Park on September 4th, 5th, or 6th, 20 did you hear any discussion about an injunction? 21 A: No, ma'am. What is that anyways? 22 Q: Well, I don't think we need to 23 explore that. Thank you very much. Those are all my 24 questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1501 very much, Ms. McAleer. 2 I think Mr. O'Marra is up next for the 3 Chief Coroner. 4 MR. AL O'MARRA: Thank you, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 8 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cousins. My name 9 is Al O'Marra and I appear for the Chief Coroner. Those 10 two (2) investigators that came and saw you in February 11 of 2003 were from the Chief Coroner's office, Detectives 12 Roselli and Armstrong. 13 We, as Detective Armstrong explained, are 14 interested in the events that occurred after the 15 shooting, from the shooting up until the time of Dudley 16 George's arrival at the hospital. 17 I expect, Mr. Cousins, that we will hear 18 that shortly after eleven o'clock that night, that that's 19 when the first gunshot sounds were recorded and that 20 shortly after midnight, that's when Mr. Dudley George was 21 brought into the Strathroy Hospital. 22 So it would appear that there is a -- a 23 period of about an hour, a little less than an hour, 24 between the events of the shooting and his appearance at 25 the hospital.
1511 And as I understood your evidence today, 2 you were with Dudley George from the time he was shot 3 until his arrival at the hospital; is that correct? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: Okay. So it would be fair to say 6 that out of all of the witnesses that we have heard from 7 and will hear from, you are the one (1) person who had 8 constant contact with Mr. George, certainly from the 9 sandy parking lot until the arrival at the hospital? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. So what I would like to do, 12 Mr. Cousins, is -- is ask you, and I know how difficult 13 it is for you. It's clear that you've been traumatised 14 by these events. 15 But I'd like you to, for the benefit of 16 the Commission, to describe, in as much detail as you 17 can, your observations about Mr. Dudley George through 18 that time period, all right? 19 A: Real heavy breathing, hard for him to 20 breath. And gasping, and I kept talking to him to make 21 sure his eyeballs weren't going to roll back into his 22 head. 23 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me just ask you 24 to pause there. Perhaps we can do it in -- in stages. 25 As -- as I understood your evidence
1521 earlier today, you saw Mr. George fall when he was shot; 2 is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And you saw the others that 5 were there assist him to the car, the "OPP Who" Car? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And were you in and amongst 8 that -- those people that were helping in that process? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: Okay. Now, was Mr. George walking or 11 was he being carried? 12 A: He was being carried. 13 Q: Okay. And as he was placed into the 14 car, you went in after him into the back seat. 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: Okay. And is that the first time you 17 had physical contact with Mr. George after he was shot? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: Okay. Now, tell us, when you got 20 into the car, what were your observations about Mr. 21 George? 22 A: He was panting, he was breathing real 23 heavy, he was gasping for air. I just tried to put much 24 pressure as I could on his wound and he just looked at me 25 and smiled.
1531 Q: Okay. Did he say anything then? 2 A: No, he never. 3 Q: Okay. The car was driven immediately 4 from the Park area up through the Park and along that 5 Inner Drive up to the -- the barrack area? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. During that trip through that 8 location, did Mr. George say anything to you? 9 A: No, he never. 10 Q: Okay. Was he conscious? 11 A: Yes, he was. 12 Q: Okay, and tell us, how can you tell 13 Mr. George was conscious during that time? 14 A: He was breathing real heavy and he 15 was just staring at me and he was looking at me real hard 16 like that and I was putting pressure on his wound. He's 17 gasping for air and I just kept telling him to squeeze -- 18 squeeze my hand, squeeze my hand and he just kept 19 squeezing my hand every so often. 20 Q: Okay. And when you get to the 21 location of the barracks that you indicated to the east 22 of the -- the main gate, is that where Mr. George was 23 then transferred to his brother's car -- Pierre George's? 24 A: Yes, he was. 25 Q: Okay. And did that take place
1541 immediately? Was there any delay? 2 A: Yes. I'm not sure of that. I think 3 immediately. 4 Q: Okay. Did you have to wait for the 5 car to be brought to the "OPP Who" car or was it right 6 there? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You had to wait? 9 A: I had to wait for the other car. 10 Q: Okay. And then when Mr. George was 11 moved into the back seat of his brother's car, were you 12 with him? 13 A: I went right in the other -- the back 14 seat of the other car with him. 15 Q: And how was he moved into Pierre's 16 car? 17 A: I think they picked -- picked him up 18 and then transferred him over. 19 Q: Okay. And were you with him through 20 that process? 21 A: I got out of the way so they could 22 pick him up and move him and put him in the other car and 23 I got in through the other side in the back of the car 24 with him. They closed the door and I proceeded to put 25 pressure onto his wound.
1551 Q: Okay. Now, tell us, how did he 2 appear? What did he say or do with anything? 3 A: He wasn't -- he didn't say nothing. 4 He was just really gasping for air; panting real hard and 5 I kept talking to him and I was, like, kept talking to 6 him and that and I just one of his eyeballs, like, 7 because he was -- his eyeballs almost rolled back in his 8 head a couple of times. I kept talking to him so he'd 9 stay awake. 10 Q: Okay. Was he still holding your 11 hand? 12 A: Yes, he was, he would hold my hand 13 and I just tell -- I just kept telling him to squeeze my 14 hand and he kept squeezing my hand. Once -- he'd squeeze 15 my hand once in a while. 16 Q: Okay. The car then drove directly 17 out of the Camp onto Army Camp Road and through the -- or 18 past the cruisers onto Highway 21? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, the 21 next time -- we'll just -- the next sort of area that 22 we'll look at is from the -- departure from the Camp 23 until you stopped -- stopped at the farmhouse, all right? 24 During that part of the trip, can you describe Mr. George 25 for us?
1561 A: He looked like he was kind of going 2 into real deep shock and he was, like, starting to shake 3 quite a bit and that and I just kept talking to him. And 4 he was, like, his eyeballs were going to roll back into 5 the head and then I'd just tell him, It's going to be 6 okay. You're going to be okay. We're soon going to be 7 at the hospital. Everything's going to be okay. 8 Q: Okay. And -- and again, during any 9 part of that portion of this rush to the hospital, did -- 10 did Mr. George say anything? 11 A: No, he never. 12 Q: Okay. Did he -- did he continue to 13 squeeze your hand? 14 A: He continued to squeeze my hand and 15 he just, like -- like he was, like, having a real hard 16 time breathing and it looked like he was sort of, like, 17 breathing and trying to get his air, like choking on his 18 blood. 19 Q: Okay. Now, you -- we heard that the 20 -- the tire blew en route and that shortly after that the 21 vehicle was stopped at a farmhouse? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Now, and as I understand it, 24 you remained in the -- the car with Dudley George when -- 25 when Carolyn and his brother went to the farmhouse?
1571 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. So you had no observations as 3 to what happened in the farmhouse? 4 A: No, I don't. 5 Q: Okay. And can you tell us, did -- 6 did his brother, Pierre, come to the car and check on his 7 brother to listen to his chest or to -- to see how he 8 was? 9 A: He come and he checked up on him and 10 it was like to see how he was doing and then when we took 11 off and we were -- were ready to take off and we figured 12 out just go to the hospital. 13 Q: Okay. When you say you took off and 14 figured that you'd go to the hospital, was that at the 15 end of the driveway or when you went en route again? 16 A: I think that was, like, a little ways 17 from their laneway. 18 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 19 A: A little ways away from their 20 laneway. 21 Q: Okay. Now I understand that -- and 22 we will hear that the road that you were on was Navu Road 23 (phonetic)? Am I pronouncing that correctly? 24 A: I don't know the name. 25 Q: You don't know the name? All right.
1581 That -- past the farmhouse that you stopped there is a 2 major intersection with a big stop sign. 3 Do you recall having stopped there when 4 Pierre was either waiting for an ambulance to come by or 5 deciding which hospital to go to? 6 A: I remember when I'm sitting there we 7 were discussing of whether they should go to Strathroy or 8 the Sarnia Hospital. I could just hear him. I wasn't 9 really paying attention of which way we were going. I 10 was paying attention to Dudley. 11 Q: All right. Now again, at this point 12 can you describe for us Dudley's condition? 13 A: His breathing was getting real heavy. 14 Looked like it was getting harder for him to breathe. 15 Q: Okay. Was he conscious? 16 A: Yes, he was. 17 Q: And can you tell us how were you able 18 to assess he was conscious? What was he doing or how did 19 you believe that to be true? 20 A: I just kept -- I just kept telling 21 him to squeeze my hand and he would squeeze my hand and 22 then I knew because like he's trying to roll his eyeballs 23 back and I just kept talking to him while I was putting 24 pressure on his wound. And I kept telling him it's going 25 to be okay.
1591 Q: Okay. And the decision is made to -- 2 to go to Strathroy and you've described for us the 3 arrival at the hospital. When you get to the hospital, 4 describe for us again the condition of Mr. George. 5 A: He was panting real hard, his 6 breathing was starting to slow down, his -- he kept 7 trying to, like, close his eyes and wanted for his 8 eyeballs to roll back into his head and then I kept 9 talking to him, telling him it's going to be okay. 10 And then when the cops took me away and 11 then that's when he started to -- I could see him just 12 starting to slouch over and fall over on the seat. 13 Q: Okay. Was it your belief up until 14 that point that Mr. George was conscious? 15 A: He was -- he was alive, he would be 16 still alive today if they would have opened up those 17 doors and give us some help. 18 Q: My question was, was it your belief 19 at that time that he was still conscious? 20 A: Yes, he was. 21 Q: Okay. Now throughout the entire 22 period that you just reviewed with us, did Mr. George say 23 anything to you? 24 A: No, never. 25 Q: Okay. The reason I ask you that is
1601 because I noticed in some of the interviews that you gave 2 early on, where you describe comments that he made. 3 Where he -- he described that he said that he was in 4 pain, that he needed to get to a hospital. 5 A: He was just gasping for air. 6 Q: So if he -- if he -- can you -- do 7 you have any explanation for us? If you said that to 8 investigators in early occasion, why that you would have 9 said that? 10 A: I didn't check out none of my notes 11 and this and that before. This is a very touchy subject 12 and I just still don't even feel safe talking to you guys 13 or nobody else about this. You guys are bringing up real 14 bad memories for me. 15 Q: I understand that, sir. And as you 16 know, the purpose of the Inquiry is so that we can know 17 as much as possible about the circumstances involving 18 your -- your friend and relative's death. 19 Could you explain to us, sir, did Mr. 20 George say anything or do you have any explanation as to 21 why you might have said that to investigators in an 22 earlier -- 23 A: No, I'm not sure. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you have indicated as 25 well that, as you say, this is a touchy subject that you
1611 don't like talking about it -- 2 A: I don't talk about this to nobody. 3 Q: -- this was a period of high anxiety 4 and panic for you, wasn't it, sir? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And fair to say as you described the 7 nightmares that you've experienced. That you were highly 8 traumatized by the events that night. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Have you received any counselling or 11 assistance? 12 A: No. I don't trust no counsellor. 13 Why? So they can go around and tell everybody else about 14 your problem? I don't think so. 15 Q: Okay. So I take it that you've not 16 had offered to you nor have you asked for assistance of 17 counselling? 18 A: Well, I got told that I was supposed 19 to go see a counsellor and that, like, a couple of years 20 and that and, like, I don't trust nobody. I don't trust 21 talking to hardly nobody and that and -- it's very touchy 22 for me. 23 MR. AL O'MARRA: All right. Thank you, 24 sir, I have no further questions of you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1621 very much. Mr. Klippenstein...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 6 Q: Mr. Cousins, I just want to touch on 7 a couple of areas, and the first one is some questions 8 that were asked of you by Mr. McGilp about the backfire 9 of the bus that you mentioned. And he asked you if it 10 was possible that the backfire was a gunshot and you said 11 it could have been. 12 You'd been asked earlier about the 13 potential for guns in and around the Park in the hands of 14 First Nation occupiers. To your knowledge, were there 15 ever any guns in the hands of First Nation occupiers in 16 the sandy parking lot? 17 A: No, there wasn't. 18 Q: Is it possible in your view that what 19 you called a backfire was a gunshot fired by a First 20 Nation occupier? 21 A: No, it would probably be the cops. 22 Q: I'd then like to ask you some 23 questions about what happened after the shooting that 24 potentially relate to the education that you mentioned. 25 You said that after the shooting of Dudley
1631 George that you stayed at Kettle Point for a while, but 2 then you went back to the Army Camp because -- because 3 you were afraid and you felt safer at Stoney Point. 4 Is that -- is that right? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And did you stay at Stoney Point, 7 then, for a while? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Would that be for months? 10 A: Month, maybe a year. I'm not sure. 11 Q: Okay. And did you leave Stoney Point 12 during that period? 13 A: I was scared to leave Stoney Point. 14 Q: Did that interfere with you going to 15 school? 16 A: Yes, it did. 17 Q: Does that mean that you stayed at 18 Stoney Point for months when you otherwise would have 19 been going to school? 20 A: I was supposed to be going to school; 21 I didn't feel like going to school. I didn't want to go 22 nowheres near any cops or nothing. I was scared to leave 23 the Camp. 24 Q: And did you eventually go back to 25 school after the shooting?
1641 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: Do you remember roughly how long that 3 was? For example, how many months? 4 A: I probably went to school for 5 probably about a month and a half. 6 Q: And -- sorry, could you repeat that? 7 A: I only went to school for about a 8 month and a half. 9 Q: And when you went back to school for 10 a month and a half, do you remember approximately how 11 long after Dudley's shooting that was? 12 A: Probably in January. 13 Q: Okay. And then you went back to 14 school approximately in January and for about a month and 15 a half? 16 A: I think so, it'd be probably the 17 second semester. 18 Q: Okay. And where was that that you 19 went back to school? 20 A: Alexander Mackenzie. 21 Q: And where is that? 22 A: In Sarnia. 23 Q: And then what happened? 24 A: I didn't feel safe going to stay in 25 no school and there were so many cops running around. I
1651 was terrified of the cops and I had enough of that; I 2 quit going to school and I attended school on Kettle 3 Point at an adult learning centre. 4 Q: I see. I'd like to ask you a few 5 questions now about the Ipperwash Park lands. You 6 mentioned that your great-grandmother told you that 7 Ipperwash Park was Stoney Point land; is that right? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: And do you also believe that? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: You mentioned that Dudley George, 12 while you were with him in the Park, said that the Park 13 was your people's land; is that right? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And do you believe that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: We've heard evidence earlier in this 18 Inquiry about a Treaty in 1827 between the British Crown 19 and your people. 20 Did either your great grandmother or 21 Dudley George ever mention a Treaty of 1827 in connection 22 with the Park? 23 A: No, they never. 24 Q: My next question is a bit complicated 25 so I want you to listen carefully. We've heard evidence
1661 earlier in this Inquiry that the Treaty of 1827, that I 2 mentioned, guaranteed that the Ipperwash Park lands would 3 be reserved for your people in perpetuity which means 4 forever. 5 Do you understand that so far? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Now even though your great 8 grandmother and Dudley George didn't specifically mention 9 that Treaty of 1827, is it possible that their idea that 10 the Park lands or your people's lands originally came 11 from that Treaty guarantee? Or as -- as we lawyers would 12 say -- 13 A: Probably. 14 Q: Do you think that those two (2) are 15 consistent? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: I would like to then ask you some 18 questions about Dudley. Would you say that Dudley George 19 was your friend? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Would you say that you looked up to 22 him? 23 A: Yes, he was like a hero towards the 24 rest of us younger guys. 25 Q: Is it fair to say that he had helped
1671 you quite a bit? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: When you were in the car and Dudley 4 was being held by you while he was wounded, did it ever 5 occur to you that he might die? 6 A: Yes, it did. 7 Q: You were fourteen (14) years old at 8 the time; is that right? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: Can you tell me a bit what it felt 11 like as a fourteen (14) old to have your friend and your 12 mentor seemingly bleeding to death in your arms? 13 A: I was going into shock like I 14 couldn't believe that they shot him and the only thing 15 that was on my mind was revenge and killing the cops. 16 Q: What do you think of Dudley George 17 today? 18 A: I respect him for everything that he 19 did. He shed his blood for our land, they can never take 20 that piece of land back on us. They should have been -- 21 they should have give it back long time ago when they 22 said they were suppose to in the first place. 23 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. 24 Cousins, I have no further questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms.
1681 Hensel...? 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I have no 3 questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. And that's -- that's it, Mr. Cousins. Thank 6 you very much for coming here. I know this has been a 7 difficult time for you. Thank you for coming in giving 8 us your evidence. 9 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 10 11 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now 14 4:30. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's now 3:30 -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, 3:30, 17 I'm sorry. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and so we've -- 19 we're trying to find -- ask Mr. Gerald George if -- to 20 come. So hopefully he'll be here at the end of the -- by 21 the end of the afternoon break. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will we take 23 a break now? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I suggest we take a 25 break now. We had anticipated that My Friends might have
1691 been a little longer, so... 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we can at 3 least start with the next witness. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll start with the 5 next witness when he comes. Thank you very much, Mr. 6 Cousins. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 again. 9 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll start in fifteen 11 (15) minutes because he's here. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:47 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 21 Commissioner. Our next witness, Commissioner, is Mr. 22 Gerald George. 23 24 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Sworn: 25
1701 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Mr. George, you need to pull the 3 microphone up -- just move -- the whole thing should come 4 up a little closer to you, because we need to capture 5 this on the recording devices. 6 And I understand you were born on October 7 2nd, 1965? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that when you were born your 10 family was living at Kettle Point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes? And I understand your mother is 13 Eloise Adele George? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And her maiden name was Cloud? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that your mother was born at 18 Stoney Point in 1937? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that she lived there until the 21 appropriation in 1942? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in 1942, she moved with your 24 grandparents to Kettle Point? 25 A: Yes.
1711 Q: And I understand that a number of 2 your uncles, your uncle Gordon Cloud, was born on -- at 3 Stoney Point? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And now resides at Kettle Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your uncle, Bud Cloud, was born, 8 as well, at Stoney Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And he resides today at Stoney Point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And -- and your uncle, Dean Cloud, 13 was born at Stoney Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And he lived at Stoney Point after 16 the -- the occupation in July -- in 1993, but now lives 17 at Kettle Point? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your aunt, Joanne Bird, was born 20 on Stoney Point as well? 21 A: I believe so. 22 Q: And your uncle, Beverly Bressette? 23 A: I'm not sure about that one. 24 Q: And your aunt, Ann Millican 25 (phonetic)?
1721 A: I think so. 2 Q: And your uncle, Pete Cloud, was born 3 at Kettle Point? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And your uncle, Gerald Cloud, do you 6 know where he was born? 7 A: I'm not sure. 8 Q: And I understand that you were 9 employed at the CFB Ipperwash -- the Army Camp -- from 10 1984 to 1989; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And while you were employed at the 13 Army Camp, you worked in the kitchen; is that correct? 14 In the summer time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you worked as -- can you tell us 17 -- did you work for the Government or for a catering 18 company? 19 A: In the summer I was a manager for the 20 catering company and in the winter I worked for Supply 21 and Services; that's for the Government. 22 Q: Okay. And could you pull that -- 23 A: Closer? 24 Q: -- a little closer, just speak up a 25 little bit, Mr. George. And the catering company, as I
1731 understand it, operated the food services for the eight 2 (8) weeks in the summer when cadets were at the Camp. 3 Is that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And that Supply and Services operated 6 the kitchens in the winter time when there were regular 7 Army or militia members of the Army at the Camp? 8 A: Yeah, that's right. 9 Q: And in 1989, I understand you were 10 the -- the fire safety inspector at the Base? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: And can you tell us what it meant to 13 be the fire safety inspector? 14 A: I just went to the buildings and made 15 sure all the fire equipment was in operating order. And 16 I went out to the field and set up fire points, had -- 17 where the cadets camped out in the evening or overnight. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: And I liaisonned with CFB of London. 20 I had to write reports to my superior in London, at the 21 London Base. 22 Q: At the London, CFB -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- London Base? And I've got up on 25 the screen a copy of Exhibit P-40 and there is in front
1741 of you a laser and when you say that you would set up 2 fire points when the cadets were in the -- at the Camp, 3 can you tell us in the summer time at the Camp, can you 4 tell us what you mean by a fire point? 5 A: A fire point is a just a water 6 extinguisher in a pressurized container. Two (2) of 7 those and a couple of buckets and the shovels. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: And sometimes a air horn, if there's 10 a fire, the kids would hit it. 11 Q: Okay, and -- 12 A: And -- 13 Q: Where would the cadets be camping 14 when they camped out in the Army Camp? 15 A: We would have a canoe training 16 exercises. They would be right around the -- the 17 junction. There's a -- a bridge that separated two (2) 18 lakes and they would have a campground in the bush here 19 or on that side of the road -- 20 Q: And -- 21 A: And -- 22 Q: And -- 23 A: What's that supposed to be? 24 Q: That's my computer saying I've been 25 too long on this picture. The -- and what you're
1751 pointing to is in the north side -- the north part of 2 Exhibit P-40 and I have to do this so that anyone reading 3 the transcript, Mr. George, will understand. 4 And you were referring to the inland 5 lakes, one (1) is -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- Bayou Lake, and then there's just 8 to the west of it, there's another round lake and there's 9 -- today there's a bridge between them and the cadets 10 would be camped in that area? 11 A: Yeah. And then there'd be a -- 12 they'd have a rope bridge across. There'd be a high beam 13 here and there'd be a rope bridge right across that lake. 14 Q: And you're pointing to an area -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- by the "E" in Bayou Lake? 17 A: Yeah, it'd be closer to the widest 18 part of the lake. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And now there'd be another campground 21 here and also there was another campground -- there's a 22 hill here somewhere. And there'd be a campground right 23 along there on the side for when they do their manoeuvres 24 and map reading along the ridge -- one of the ridges 25 here.
1761 Q: Yes. 2 A: And then there'd be another 3 campground back here for canoes as well. 4 Q: Okay. So that the -- for the 5 purposes of the transcript for the canoes you're pointing 6 to an area on the north end of the Army Camp just east of 7 the Provincial Park as shown on this diagram and there's 8 a lake shown -- 9 A: Yeah, the lake right here, I believe, 10 I think that's -- 11 Q: There, yes. 12 A: -- the lake. 13 Q: And then the hill that you were 14 talking about is close to the middle of the -- the Army 15 Camp -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: There's a road that runs from the 18 west side to the east side where it branches off, one (1) 19 road leading back towards -- south towards Highway 21 and 20 the second road leading north-east towards Outer Drive 21 and that's the second area where the -- another area 22 where the cadets would camp? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And then you -- the ridge that you 25 referred to runs along the road from the -- the road that
1771 runs inside the Army Camp parallel to Highway -- to the 2 Army Camp Road of just below the sewerage disposal bed, 3 right across; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And as I understand it, the cadets 6 when they were in the field, would be involved, as you 7 said, in canoe training and -- 8 Q: -- water sports? 9 A: Everything. Map reading, map reading 10 along the ridge, canoes down here, rope bridge, made the 11 forest marches along -- around in there too. 12 Q: And they did survival courses as 13 well? 14 A: Yeah. Yeah, they did everything, 15 just like Scouts, but they were Army Cadets. 16 Q: Okay. And after you left the employ 17 of the -- at the Army Camp you worked in Kettle Point; is 18 that correct? 19 A: Yeah, as a carpenter. 20 Q: As a carpenter? And over the years 21 you've worked as a -- a carpenter at Kettle Point? 22 A: Yeah, a carpenter up to maybe '93. 23 Q: And in '93, for a period of four (4) 24 years you operated a store out of your home? 25 A: Yeah.
1781 Q: And that was "George's Shooting and 2 Hunting"? 3 A: Yeah, hunting supplies. 4 Q: Hunting supplies? 5 A: And fishing equipment, too. 6 Q: And -- but was it's name, "George's 7 Shooting and Hunting Supplies"? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And can you tell us what you sold in 10 your store? 11 A: I sold, like -- I couldn't get -- to 12 get a gun permit I would have to do too much altercation 13 -- alterations to the house, so I didn't bother trying to 14 get a gun permit, but I sold ammunition -- 15 Q: Can you pull it forward a little bit? 16 A: -- ammunition, cross-bows, bows, 17 arrows, fishing equipment, scopes, hunting knives, 18 everything to do with hunting or fishing -- traps -- 19 muskrat traps -- stuff like that. 20 Q: So that you would -- everything doing 21 with hunting except -- or fishing -- except you did not 22 sell guns? 23 A: No. Paint-ball guns. 24 Q: Paint-ball guns? 25 A: Yeah, I sold paint-ball supplies,
1791 too. So, masks, paint-ball guns, air tanks. 2 Q: And paint -- a paint-ball gun is for 3 use -- 4 A: It's a game. 5 Q: -- simulated games. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And shoots a ball that's a -- a 8 paint-ball? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you're a -- Cecil Bernard George 11 is -- is your cousin? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you're sometimes known as 14 "Booper"? Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you -- starting in -- around 2002 17 you went into -- excuse me, in 1995 you were the manager 18 of the Kettle Point Park; is that correct? 19 A: Just in the summer of '95 and then in 20 the summer of '97. 21 Q: And you were also the manager of the 22 Kettle Point Mall for -- in 1998? 23 A: Yeah, for one (1) year. 24 Q: And you're in the food services 25 business now and have been since 2000?
1801 A: No, 2002 to the present day. I have 2 a business from 2000 to 2001 -- no, 2002, about March I 3 managed the Three Fires Youth Centre (phonetic) at Kettle 4 Point -- 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: -- partially employed, and six (6) 7 months as a volunteer. 8 Q: Okay. And the -- you were a Band 9 Councillor at the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation 10 from June 1992 to June 2002; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. Yes. 12 Q: And as I understand it, part of your 13 responsibilities at -- as a councillor were hunting and 14 fishing issues? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And natural resources? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And policing? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And youth? 21 A: Yes, I held a youth portfolio. 22 Q: And can you just tell us a little bit 23 about, as a councillor, what you did in the -- on the -- 24 were these committees for each of these discrete areas 25 that you served on?
1811 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Or how was it organized? 3 A: I never had a committee for the 4 hunting and fishing, I just operated on my own. If there 5 was issues I would go to meetings and I would -- if there 6 was something important, I'd send out letters to the 7 hunters before the fall hunts or the fisherman -- I'd go 8 to see the guys who set nets and ask them about, like -- 9 like the Spare (phonetic) decision when it came out. 10 It kind of affected everything -- our 11 harvesting and fishing so I held meetings on that. And 12 then in 1998, we were asked to front -- to do a deer cull 13 at the Pinery Provincial Park, so I -- I took on that job 14 and I organized that and from 1998 to 2000 -- 2001 I 15 believe. 16 And I had a lot of hunters out there. 17 Keep a good eye on them. That was a hard thing to do and 18 basically hunting and fishing. I never had a committee 19 to work with. I just did -- went along and reported to 20 council after I go to the meetings. 21 With the youth, we had a youth committee. 22 And later on my uncle -- my Uncle Pete -- Pete Cloud, he 23 was on council and he jumped on there with me. And we 24 developed a program for youth and we worked along with 25 Economic Development in the summer to develop the summer
1821 jobs for the kids. 2 And with the police I was on a police 3 committee since 1996, I believe, and I'm still on the 4 police committee today. And in 1997 Kettle and Stony 5 Point joined the Anishnaabek police. So from 1998 to 6 2002, actually just last -- just last fall, I was the 7 board member for the Anishnaabek Police Service for the 8 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations. 9 And I was replaced because they needed a 10 councillor on there so I was no council so they put a 11 council on there but I'm still on the police committee at 12 home. 13 Q: At Kettle and Stony Point First 14 Nations? 15 A: Yeah. And I still work. I'm not on 16 council yet but I still work with the Southern First 17 Nation secretariat. Something called Youth Development 18 and Model. We teach kids the traditional aspect about 19 hunting, fishing. We're taking up canoeing this summer 20 and spear fishing and we're going to learn about small 21 business and that kind of that. So, this is ongoing. 22 Q: So part of the work with -- with the 23 young people is to teach the young people their history 24 and their culture and the traditional ways of -- of 25 hunting and fishing?
1831 A: Yeah, I have to take them to Walpole 2 actually tomorrow at four o'clock. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: I have to take them to Walpole 5 tomorrow at four o'clock. So I'm kind of hoping that we 6 might be finished by then. 7 Q: We'll be done by 3:30 tomorrow anyway 8 Mr. -- 9 A: Oh, okay. That would be good and I 10 can -- 11 Q: -- Mr. George. So you can plan on 12 that. 13 A: All right. They'll be happy. 14 Q: And your grandfather was Mr. Sheldon 15 Cloud; is that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that was your grandfather on your 18 mother's side? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you learn from your 21 grandfather or from your parents about Stoney Point and 22 life at Stoney Point? 23 A: Yeah. My grandfather used to tell -- 24 mostly me and my cousin Mike Cloud, he used to tell us 25 stories about Stoney Point.
1841 Q: And -- 2 A: Just the way it used to be there. 3 You know, and he had his pet crow and he lived down there 4 and all this kind of stuff. And he used to cut wood. He 5 used to keep telling us we had it easy because back then 6 they used to have to cut wood with a big saw and all that 7 kind of stuff. And he would tell us stories about 8 mythical stuff but you know, it's pretty real to us. 9 My mother used to tell me stories when we 10 first moved down there. Her and my aunt Joanne would get 11 picked on by some of the other girls from Kettle Point 12 and beat up when they tried to get to school and stuff. 13 But she said don't -- don't hate other people because of 14 that. She'd just tell me how hard it was when they first 15 moved there. 16 Q: When they first moved to Kettle Point 17 from Stoney Point. 18 A: Yeah. When they first moved to 19 Kettle Point. They would get picked on a lot. 20 Q: And did your grandfather tell you 21 about when he lived on -- at the Army -- at Stoney Point 22 at the Army Camp what he did and what his life was like 23 there? 24 A: Yeah, they'd -- they'd have, like, 25 they'd plant crops and stuff and wood and later on when
1851 he moved to Kettle Point they'd make money by hunting 2 frogs and stuff and fishing. Just the regular stuff, you 3 know. 4 Q: And did you mother tell you -- did 5 your mother recall living on Stoney Point and did she 6 tell you anything about it? 7 A: Just -- just small stuff. She said 8 she couldn't really -- really recall but she remembers 9 just everyday life and things like that living down there 10 and then coming -- they used to come down to Kettle Point 11 and visit and go back. People would come from Kettle 12 Point and visit down at Stoney Point. 13 Q: And your uncles who were born on 14 Stoney Point did they talk to you about Stoney Point? 15 A: Just Uncle Bud used to tell me stuff. 16 Back when grandpa was still alive, that was way back in 17 the 70s. 18 Q: And I understand that your mother's 19 home, childhood home, was moved from Stoney Point to 20 Kettle Point? 21 A: Yeah. Still standing actually. 22 Q: It's still -- it's still stands -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- at Kettle Point? 25 A: Yeah. They moved the old house down
1861 there and they added a new part to it when they got to 2 Kettle Point and right now the new part fell apart and 3 the -- the old building's still standing there. Must 4 have been made pretty good. 5 Q: And so the -- the old part still 6 exists today? 7 A: Yeah, it's still standing up. 8 Q: And prior to 1990, the -- did you, as 9 you were growing up, excuse me, prior to 1984 when you 10 began to work at the Army Camp, did you visit the Army 11 Camp lands? 12 A: Before 1984? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: My dad would always take us down 15 along the beach and we'd -- because he knew guys who 16 worked in the Army Camp and they'd -- he'd phone ahead 17 and he'd tell them that there's nobody in there so we'd 18 go on the beach. He'd take and my brother and my sister 19 and we'd go get a Christmas tree every winter back there. 20 That -- and that's about all I can... 21 Q: And you said you have a brother and 22 sister. How many siblings do you have, Mr. George? 23 A: Just those two (2). 24 Q: And your brother's name is? 25 A: Victor.
1871 Q: And your sister? 2 A: Toni. 3 Q: Toni? And when you were in high 4 school, did you go to the Army Camp? 5 A: Yeah. Well, I guess I can say now. 6 We skipped school, the afternoons. Me and my cousin Len 7 Cloud, that's Bud's boy and Colin Greenbird and Don 8 Greenbird, we'd all go back and fish for a little -- 9 little bluegills back there all afternoon. 10 Q: And would that be around the inland 11 lakes or other parts of the interior of the Army Camp? 12 A: We'd -- that map of Outer Drive. 13 We'd pull a car in the bush through the little hole there 14 which we weren't supposed to do and go fish around there 15 or go for a swim. 16 Q: And you're pointing out on Exhibit 41 17 the -- on the east -- excuse me, Exhibit 40, P-40, the 18 east side, the area just below there's Moon Lake or Moon 19 L appears, it's not very visible on that but right below 20 that there appears to be a small lake. Is that correct? 21 A: Yeah. That's where it was 22 Q: And did you hunt when you were in 23 high school on -- it's -- the Army Camp? 24 A: Maybe later on, my late high school 25 years. I was -- my hunting buddy was Todd King and we'd
1881 -- we'd go in about here, jump the fence and we'd go into 2 the big field. 3 There's a Centurion tank back there and 4 two (2) Shermans that are all shot up and we'd always 5 hunt around back there. 6 Q: And that was all -- you're pointing 7 on Exhibit P-40 to the road that runs west to east just 8 below the sewerage disposal bed. And the area that 9 you've pointed out where you hunted was to the north and 10 the east of the mortar range; is that correct? 11 A: Yeah, and then we'd walk along here, 12 follow this road out and you get picked up about here. 13 Q: And you're referring to the road that 14 runs again east from west to east. It curves around and 15 ends up passing the grenade range and ends up at the road 16 that runs parallel to Highway 21 and you would walk east 17 on an interior road and then get picked up on the eastern 18 edge of the Army Camp and Highway 21? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And after you -- in 1988 and 21 1989, did you hunt on the Army Camp? 22 A: '88 and '89? In order to hunt on the 23 Army Camp we -- all we had to do was get a letter from 24 Band Council stating that we're members of Kettle and 25 Stony Point.
1891 Q: Yes. 2 A: And then from there we'd have to 3 phone the Commissionaires at the front gate and they'd 4 look at the schedule, to see if there's any driver's 5 wheel courses going on or any other militia or the 4th 6 RCRC, if they were in there, and if they weren't, we were 7 allowed to go hunting anywhere on the Base with guns. 8 Q: So that -- and you did that in 1988 9 and 1989? 10 A: Yeah, we did that quite a bit in the 11 fall time. 12 Q: And you would do that during hunting 13 season -- 14 A: Yeah. As soon as the leaves fall, 15 couple of frosts, then we'd go hunting. 16 Q: And that -- 17 A: It might be a -- hunt around up 18 front. There -- there's a block of -- there's a block 19 here -- forest and we'd hunt that. And then there are 20 some hills back here. The lagoons are here, there's some 21 hills there and then there's a big field here; we'd hunt 22 in there, too and do a -- like a drive. 23 Q: You'd do a drive and by that you 24 mean -- 25 A: Yeah.
1901 Q: -- you would drive the animals out 2 through the -- from one (1) side and hunters -- people 3 with guns would be on the other side -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- waiting for the animals to come 6 through? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And you hunted deer? 9 A: Yeah, deer. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: Sometimes muskrat. We'd set some 12 traps. 13 Q: And the area that you referred to on 14 Exhibit P-40 is the area north of the magazine and north 15 of the rifle range. That's all -- was all wooded area 16 back there? 17 A: Yeah. I think it's -- it's still 18 wooded. I think -- this is where the trailers are, 19 before when we lived in the Base. 20 Q: And it's all wooded really -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- from that -- from that interior 23 road north there's a great deal of woods? 24 A: Yeah, and there's pretty good hunting 25 spots.
1911 Q: Thank you. 2 A: Was, anyway. 3 Q: Now, in 1990, did -- was there a 4 meeting at the Army Camp that -- that you're aware of? 5 A: Just -- my cousin, Bernard, moved in 6 there for a little while, must have been -- he set up 7 camp right along -- there's a -- let's see, there's a 8 feeder creek up here somewhere and Bernard set up along 9 the edge of the feeder creek and I went back there and 10 visited him. He was a -- he had a little camp set up. 11 Q: And would that be in the area just 12 east of the built-up area of the -- is it -- 13 A: Yeah, probably right around here. 14 Q: Okay. I've got -- on the -- on the 15 screen in front of you is a copy of P-41, which is a 16 sketch of the built-up area and you're pointing to an 17 area just to the east of the last buildings. I think 18 it's the -- one (1) of the buildings is a hospital on the 19 east side. 20 A: Yeah, the one (1) dirt road would 21 lead back to the tank range, the rocket range, and then 22 there'd be a creek here and then he set up on this side 23 of the creek -- the Camp side of the creek. 24 Q: On the Camp side of the creek? 25 A: Yeah.
1921 Q: And how long was Cecil Bernard George 2 there? 3 A: I don't know, a couple of weeks. 4 Q: And were there other people with him? 5 Do you recall? 6 A: Yeah, there were other people with 7 him, my cousin, Timothy George, was there and a couple of 8 other people. 9 Q: And what -- and what was the purpose 10 of the meeting in the -- of the --why was Cecil Bernard 11 George there, from your understanding? And the other 12 people? 13 A: He was protesting partly -- he wanted 14 to try to tell the Army that that wasn't their land and 15 he was kind of protesting the Oka situation, too, 16 something like that, if I can remember correctly. But he 17 was there, too, protesting that that was Stoney Point -- 18 saying that we should -- it should be given back. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: It wasn't a meeting, we just went 21 there to visit. 22 Q: So that Cecil Bernard George and 23 others camped there for a period of time and you would go 24 and -- you went and visited Cecil Bernard George? 25 A: Yeah. They -- they let us through
1931 the front gate. 2 Q: The Army let you through the front 3 gate? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Now, if I could move up to 1993, were 6 you involved in any meetings in the early part of 1993 7 about Stoney Point and the land at the Army Camp? 8 A: Yeah, it used to be a group of 9 original Stoney Pointers, called them the Locatees -- 10 Stoney Point Locatees -- 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: Landowners or -- and they had a 13 leader. He was Robert George; his nickname was Nobby. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And I went there to listen once. 16 Then they were making plans for -- to send letters to 17 Council and to send letters to Government officials. 18 And then that's when about February -- 19 late January and February, myself, my cousin Dwayne 20 Cloud, and I think my cousin Blaine Cloud, we went there 21 when they were having a meeting at the United Church on 22 Kettle Point and asked to form a Stoney Point Warrior 23 Society. 24 Q: Okay. Now before we get to that, can 25 you tell me in the group of Locatees that met at the
1941 -- at the United Church, can you tell me who the other 2 people were? 3 A: Rose -- Rose Manning was there. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: Janet Cloud. 6 Q: And was that Janet Cloud a relative? 7 A: Yeah. Dean's -- that would be my 8 Uncle Dean's wife. 9 Q: Okay. Yes? 10 A: My mom was there once in a while. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And there was Nellie Rogers was 13 there. And I think Barb -- Barb George. She was there 14 on and off. Carl George was there too. He'd come in 15 and -- 16 Q: And Carl George is now -- 17 A: Carl Tolsma (phonetic). 18 Q: Carl Tolsma. And Angeline Shawkence? 19 A: Yeah, Angie Shawkence was there. 20 Q: And Gladys Lunham (phonetic)? 21 A: Yeah, Gladys Lunham. Maynard T. 22 George was there too, on and off. 23 Q: Did Maynard T. George, he was younger 24 than the other people? 25 A: Yeah. He was -- he was young. He
1951 wasn't born on Stoney Point. 2 Q: And the other individuals that you've 3 just named had been born -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- had lived on Stoney Point? 6 A: Yeah. They were all Stoney Pointers. 7 Q: And they were all in 1993 would have 8 been older people? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now the -- you told us that one of 11 the things that the group was doing was discussing 12 protests about getting the land back and writing letters 13 to various people about getting the Army Camp back? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Is that correct? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And you then told us that you and 18 your cousin Dwayne Cloud and your cousin Blaine Cloud 19 went to speak to the Locatees about forming a warrior 20 society -- Stoney Point Warrior Society? 21 A: Yeah. They really didn't like us 22 calling it that but that's the word we used. It should 23 have been more like peacekeepers but we -- they said it 24 was okay so we did. 25 Q: And what was the purpose of the
1961 Society whether it's called the Warrior Society or 2 Peacekeeper Society? 3 What was your purpose in starting -- 4 starting up the society? 5 A: If they had any protests like in the 6 front gate, we'd go there and just keep an eye on things. 7 Q: And when you -- 8 A: Protectors whatever you want to call 9 them. 10 Q: To protect the elderly people and the 11 group? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And what else? 14 A: Just to help -- help them organize, 15 help them do any running around that they needed like 16 copying and letters and stuff. 17 Q: And were some of the group recognized 18 as Elders of the community? 19 A: They all were. 20 Q: They all were? 21 A: Yeah. Pretty well, yeah. 22 Q: And so as I understand it, your -- 23 the group was going to assist and help the Elders in 24 carrying out the work that they were doing? 25 A: Yeah.
1971 Q: And did you assist with any of the 2 protests? 3 A: I did in 1993. I think it was April 4 they had a protest in the -- just this side of the front 5 gate. 6 Q: And you're pointing to -- 7 A: Right about here on Army Camp side of 8 the Army Camp Road they set up a couple of tents just in 9 front of the commissary along the fence. Not in the Camp 10 but outside. 11 Q: Okay. And before -- the commissary I 12 believe -- can you just point it out again? 13 A: Yeah, right around -- right around 14 this area? 15 Q: And you're pointing near Building 16 number 4 and Building number 5? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Which are identified as the ration 19 preparation building and the supply depot; is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And so tents were set up outside the 23 fence along Army Camp Road? 24 A: Yeah. Right -- right along here. 25 Q: Yes?
1981 A: Because sometimes cooks would come 2 out and pass us some baked things over the fence. 3 Q: To the people who are protesting? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: We -- we weren't suppose to tell. 7 Q: And how many people were in the group 8 that were protesting in April of 1993? 9 A: At first there was about maybe twenty 10 (20) but then it shrunk down now. We take turns staying 11 and keeping the fire lit around the campground there, a 12 couple of tents. I think the protest lasted about a week 13 and a half something like that. 14 Q: About a week and a half? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And there were tents and people 17 stayed over night? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And you built a fire and the fire was 20 kept going through the week and a half? 21 A: Yeah, and then we'd -- like my mom 22 would make some soup and stuff and I'd bring it from 23 Kettle Point and other people would make food and bring 24 it. Take turns in bringing food at breakfast, dinner and 25 supper time.
1991 Q: And can you tell me, remember some of 2 the people who participated in the protest? 3 A: Dwayne Cloud, my cousin, Blaine and 4 Robert came and went, checking up on us, because he had a 5 business to watch at Kettle Point. 6 Q: And that's Robert George junior, or 7 Nobby? 8 A: Nobby, yeah. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yeah. I think Janet Cloud, Dean, 11 their boys, Maynard Travis, almost all of the Locatee 12 group took turns coming in and staying for a little 13 while, but only the guys stayed over night, eh? 14 Q: Only the younger people -- 15 A: As far as I can -- 16 Q: -- stayed overnight? 17 A: -- remember, yeah. It was April. It 18 was pretty cold out, so. 19 Q: And did you have any interaction with 20 the military when you were camped outside the fence along 21 Army Camp Road? 22 A: No, we -- Robert George told us not 23 to act up, not to provoke anything, not to argue and we 24 left the talking to him and Maynard and, I think, Carl 25 started to be a spokesman then too.
2001 Q: And Carl -- 2 A: So we left it to them, yeah. 3 Q: Carl -- Carl George or now known as 4 Carl Tolsma? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Maynard T. George and Mr. Robert 7 George junior? 8 A: Yeah. Robert George was kind of the 9 leader and we'd listen to him. He'd tell us don't 10 provoke anything, don't swear, you know, it's a peaceful 11 protest. 12 So we -- we obeyed. 13 Q: And Robert George junior was -- is -- 14 what's -- was the father of Mr. Ron George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: Ron. 18 Q: Otherwise called Spike. 19 A: Spike, Vince, Luke. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: Vince George and Luke George, too. 22 Q: Were his sons as well? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And you told us about a Locatee 25 meeting that you attended in February -- January -- late
2011 January, early February of 1993. 2 Were there other Locatee meetings that you 3 were aware of? 4 A: You had Locatee meetings, jeez, 5 forever. It just start, more people coming toward the 6 early 90s. But they were having Locatee meetings in the 7 80s and I can remember my Mom saying she's going to a 8 Locatee meeting tonight at somebody's house. 9 Q: So that - the Locatees had, for a 10 long time, were -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- organized, trying to get back the 13 Army Camp? 14 A: Yeah, they were always having 15 meetings and ... 16 Q: Now, in 1993, in May of 1993, on May 17 6th, 1993, we've heard that the Army Camp was occupied 18 along Highway 21 in the rifle range area. 19 Did you participate in the entry into the 20 Army Camp on May 6th, 1993? 21 A: Not the entry, but I ended up staying 22 there with my uncle Pete at that campground that we had. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2021 Q: How -- when did you hear about the 2 entry into the -- the Army Camp? 3 A: From what I remember, their Chief Tom 4 Bressette and I were at a meeting in Sault St. Marie, and 5 we got a phone call saying that they'd gone over and 6 occupied the field, the rifle ranges? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: So we came home. 9 Q: And did you go into the Army Camp in 10 May of 1993? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And when you went into the Army Camp, 13 did you -- can you tell us where you entered the Army 14 Camp. 15 A: It had an opening in the fence. 16 Right around here, somewhere. 17 Q: And you're referring to Exhibit P -- 18 A: That's right, there's a -- should be 19 an old range shed here. 20 Q: Pardon me? P-40 -- there's a road by 21 the maggot that leads up to the magazine? 22 A: Yeah, by the -- the range shed. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: One (1) of the -- and now there's a 25 gate right here, and that's where he went in, right --
2031 right around here. If that's where the range shed is. 2 Q: The -- is the range shed there today? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: I think -- and it's a white building 5 -- that's a white building? 6 A: Yeah, it's partially burned. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: I think that's the one that says, 9 "Tom Bressette and Mike Harris", or whatever. 10 Q: And is that range shed -- perhaps if 11 I could assist you on this map, I believe that the range 12 shed is closer to the road that leads -- you'll see, it 13 says, "Rifle Range". 14 A: All right. Could it be here? 15 Q: And there's a road that goes north 16 from the interior road -- the -- that runs parallel to 17 Highway 21. 18 And there's another little road that comes 19 down on this map and you'll see, it's not clear on -- on 20 -- there's a map in front of you, Mr. George, that has a 21 little dot and it's my understanding that that was where 22 the -- the building that's there today is located on this 23 plan. 24 A: Okay, yeah. 25 Q: And does that --
2041 A: That would be right -- right there, 2 then. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: Is that -- 6 A: Yeah, that's the range shed. That's 7 where the gate is and that's where he went in. 8 Q: That's where he went in? 9 A: Yeah, right -- right there, then. 10 Q: And when you went into the Army Camp 11 did you stay over night? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: My -- my Uncle Pete -- we -- we built 15 a -- we had four (4) tents and then we bought some of the 16 big blue tarps at Canadian Tire and we cut some poles and 17 made a -- like, another big tent where we'd set up for 18 our visitors and where we cooked. It was right about -- 19 right about here somewhere. 20 Q: And you're pointing to an area on the 21 map just east of what is called the thirty (30) -- the 22 road leading up to the thirty (30) yard range? 23 A: Yeah, somewhere in that area. 24 Q: And can you tell us when you went 25 into the Army Camp?
2051 A: Soon as I got home. 2 Q: So that was shortly after May 6th, 3 1993? 4 A: Yeah. I think it was still light out 5 when we got home and then I went down. 6 Q: And the -- did you stay -- how often 7 did you stay at the Army Camp in the summer of 1993? 8 A: I stayed there quite a bit; I only 9 went home once in a while because I was still on Council. 10 I had to go to meetings and attend other meetings in 11 other First Nations, but when I'd come back I'd -- I'd 12 mostly stay there with my Uncle Pete. 13 Q: And so your Uncle Pete Cloud was 14 living there in -- in the camp that had been set up by 15 your uncle. Who else in the summer of 1993 was living 16 there? 17 A: Dwayne Cloud would stay there. 18 That's Pete's son and -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- Peter Cloud, Jr. That's Pete's -- 21 probably Pete's son, too, yeah. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: And our cousins would stay with us 24 once in a while -- Joe Cloud and Blaine, Dave, and 25 Charlie. On and off.
2061 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 2 it's 4:30. Perhaps it would be a good time to stop for 3 today. So, Mr. George, we're going to start tomorrow at 4 nine o'clock. 5 THE WITNESS: Right at 9:00? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And you will be done 9 by 3:30 because we stop tomorrow at 3:30, so -- 10 THE WITNESS: That'll be good. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 12 THE WITNESS: Because I missed last week, 13 I got to get them down there this week. 14 15 (WITNESS RETIRES) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, thank 18 you very much. We're going to adjourn now until tomorrow 19 morning at 9:00 a.m. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9:00 a.m. Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I won't 22 be late. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Hearing is 24 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, January 13, at 9:00 25 a.m.
2071 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 2 3 4 5 6 Certified Correct 7 8 9 10 11 ____________________________ 12 Wendy Warnock 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25