11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 10th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (Student-at-law) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 LELAND BRADLEY WHITE, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 9 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 108 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 110 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 116 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Hourigan 138 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 146 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-114 "Stan" Thompson drawing, 4 Sept 20/95 marked by Witness 5 Leland White Jan 10/05. 46 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. I hope everybody had a good holiday, I know I 10 certainly did. I'm raring to go. Raring to get started. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Commissioner, I 12 wanted to advise you and the parties as to what will be - 13 - we anticipate happening this week. We had anticipated 14 that we would call today Leland George and then followed 15 by J.T. Cousins, followed by Nicholas Cotrelle and then 16 followed by Gerald George. 17 There has been two (2) deaths in the 18 community in the last few days. J.T. Cousins aunt passed 19 away and the funeral is tomorrow and Nicholas Cotrelle's 20 grandmother passed away and the funeral is on Wednesday. 21 What we propose to do is start with Leland 22 George this morning and then finish -- start when he's 23 done, assuming that's today, we would start with J.T. 24 Cousins. And then he would be off tomorrow, he would 25 come back on Wednesday morning because he would be off
81 for the funeral. 2 We do not know and Ms. -- whether we will 3 have Mr. Nicholas Cotrelle due to -- will not be 4 available until Thursday because of the death of his 5 grandmother. So, that we're trying to determine if we 6 have a witness for tomorrow and we will find out later. 7 We had hoped to move Gerald George up 8 until tomorrow but he may very well be at the same 9 funeral tomorrow and we haven't heard. Mr. George hasn't 10 been able to contact him yet so I'll let everybody know 11 as soon as I hear something further. 12 So that it may very well be that we don't 13 have a witness for tomorrow but we're still working on 14 it. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 We're going to start with Leland. And, Ms. Vella, I 17 understand you're going to examine him? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's correct, 19 Commissioner. The Commission would like to call as its 20 next witness, Leland White. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. White. 22 I see that you have the eagle feather. You prefer to use 23 that oath? 24 MR. LELAND WHITE: Yes. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Please
91 state your name for us, please. 2 MR. LELAND WHITE: Leland Bradley White. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 4 5 LELAND BRADLEY WHITE, SWORN; 6 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. White. 8 9 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 10 Q: I understand that you are sometimes 11 known also as Leland George? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Right. And your date of birth is 14 June the 18th, 1981? 15 A: June 6th. 16 Q: 6th? Thank you. All right. And so 17 at the time of the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 18 Park, you were fourteen (14) years old; is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And tell me then the 21 names of your parents please? 22 A: Stewart George and Edna White. 23 Q: And I understand that your father 24 Stewart George was also at the Ipperwash Provincial Park 25 during the material times?
101 A: Yeah, yes. 2 Q: And this Inquiry has heard evidence 3 from him. I understand your paternal grandparents were 4 Abraham George and Muriel George; is that correct? 5 A: Yeah, yes. 6 Q: All right. And your grandfather 7 Abraham George was a former resident of the Stoney Point 8 Reserve before the appropriation of 1942? 9 A: Yeah. Yes. Q: Thank you. Do you 10 have any sisters and brothers? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Who are they? 13 A: Do I really have to name all them all 14 off? 15 Q: Do your best. 16 A: Okay. Lonnie Redman (phonetic) and 17 Sadie Redman (phonetic), Fairningcab Shipman (phonetic), 18 Lacy George, Levi White, Stephen George and Amber 19 Cotrelle. 20 Q: Thank you. Were you related at all 21 to the late Dudley George? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- what relation?
111 A: He was my cousin. 2 Q: What is your current residence? 3 A: Stoney Point. 4 Q: Okay. And is it at the site of the - 5 - the Army Camp barracks? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: How long has that been your permanent 8 residence? 9 A: Ten (10) years. 10 Q: All right. And can you recall, was 11 it before or after the occupation of the Park that you 12 moved into the barracks? 13 A: Before. 14 Q: Prior to moving into the barracks, 15 where did you live? 16 A: At Kettle Point. 17 Q: Okay. And did you live there through 18 to, and including Grade 8? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And is that the highest grade that 23 you have completed to date? 24 A: I attended Grade 9, but I didn't 25 complete it.
121 Q: Okay. My understanding is that you 2 completed Grade 8 in June or thereabouts of 1995? 3 A: Around there. 4 Q: Yeah. Prior to the occupation of the 5 Park? Yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Thank you. What is your current job? 8 A: Working at the gate in Stoney Point. 9 Q: Okay. And how long have you held 10 that position? 11 A: Probably, like, four (4) years. 12 Q: Can you tell me what your first 13 involvement was with efforts to reclaim the former Stoney 14 Point reserve, then known as Camp Ipperwash? 15 A: When I was living there, I guess. I 16 don't know. 17 Q: Okay. So, basically when you moved 18 into the barracks, when you were fourteen (14) years old? 19 A: Yeah -- yes. 20 Q: Okay. Why did you become involved in 21 that movement? 22 A: Because I felt like I should be there 23 because I'm a Stoney Pointer; not really from Kettle 24 Point, but my grandfather's from there. 25 Q: Okay. Did you visit at all the Camp
131 Ipperwash lands prior to moving into the barracks in '95? 2 A: Like that summer? 3 Q: That summer or earlier? 4 A: Just that summer. 5 Q: Okay. So, your first time that you 6 went onto the Camp Ipperwash lands was the summer of 7 1995? 8 A: No. I attended a funeral before. 9 Q: And whose funeral was that? 10 A: Big D. Well, like my cousin's. I 11 really don't know his name. I forget, actually. 12 Q: Okay. All right. Was this in 1990 13 approximately? 14 A: I can't remember but it was around 15 there. 16 Q: All right. And so you were a young 17 child at that time? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And you said, Big D; could 20 that be Ben -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. And that's the only time prior 25 to the summer of '95 that you actually went onto the Camp
141 Ipperwash lands? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. I'd like you to tell the 6 Commission about your relationship with Dudley George and 7 how -- how it is you knew him. Obviously he was your 8 cousin, but give us a sense as to how close your 9 relationship was with him and -- and how often you used 10 to see him? 11 A: Like, almost every day since I moved 12 to Stoney Point. Like my dad was doing construction work 13 in Kettle Point so I would stay with Dudley and like he 14 taught me how to drive and stuff, yeah. 15 Just like hanging out and stuff, 16 basically. 17 Q: All right. I understand that you 18 used to have -- play a game with Dudley George involving 19 the car, and can you tell us a little bit about that? 20 A: Like what? 21 Q: Something about a chauffeur? 22 A: Well, yeah. He used to get me to 23 wear a hat and drive him around, but I don't know. I 24 didn't really consider it a game. 25 Q: Okay.
151 A: I thought it was fun, though. 2 Q: Okay, fair enough. And what 3 characteristics would you say best described your cousin 4 Dudley based on your involvement with him in -- in the 5 summer of '95? 6 A: He -- he's really funny. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Likes to joke around a lot. 9 Q: Okay. Did you ever go out hunting 10 with Dudley George? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Was that an activity that -- that you 13 participated in when you were fourteen (14)? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Now, you said you moved 16 into barracks; do you know approximately how long before 17 the occupation of the Park you moved into the barracks? 18 Do you recall what month? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: All right. Do you recall how many 21 weeks it was prior to Mr. George's death? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. If I suggested to you it was 24 approximately mid-August, would that sound about right? 25 A: Yeah. Around there, yeah.
161 Q: All right. And did you actually live 2 with Dudley George once you moved in to the barracks? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Where were you staying? 5 A: At the Rec Centre. 6 Q: The Rec Centre? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And who were you staying with? 9 A: My father. 10 Q: Okay. I'm just -- we are 11 videotaping, as you know, these proceedings and that's 12 why the microphone, in part, is important and also so 13 that everyone can hear you, so I don't have to ask you to 14 repeat. 15 So, perhaps you can just keep your voice 16 up for me and make sure you lean into the microphone like 17 I am. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Perfect. All right. Now, once you 22 moved into the barracks, were you involved in any of the 23 meetings or discussions concerning the possible 24 occupation of the Park? 25 A: No.
171 Q: Were you part of the initial group 2 who walked into the Ipperwash Provincial Park on Monday, 3 September the 4th, 1995? 4 A: No. 5 Q: When did you first find out that some 6 of the Aboriginal People had moved in to the Park? 7 A: Probably the same day. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I'm not sure. 10 Q: Did you go to that Park at all on the 11 4th? 12 A: Probably. I can't remember. 13 Q: All right. Do you recall whether you 14 slept over at the Park that night, the night of Monday, 15 September the 4th? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 18 you were in the park on the next day, Tuesday, September 19 the 5th? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall whether you 22 were in the Park at all during the three (3) days of the 23 occupation, between the 4th, 5th and the 6th? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. So, let's -- let's talk about
181 what it is you do remember about being in the Park. 2 Firstly, did you spend any of those evenings in the Park? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And do you recall how 5 many evenings you spent in the Park? 6 A: Two (2), I think. 7 Q: Two (2) evenings? 8 A: I think. I can't remember. 9 Q: And did you actually sleep over or 10 did you stay for part of the evening? 11 A: I stayed there but I didn't sleep. 12 Q: So, you were awake -- 13 A: Yeah, like, all night. 14 Q: But all night. All right. And do 15 you recall seeing any police presence around the Park 16 when you were there and, obviously, we're leaving 17 Wednesday night aside for now, so -- so, the other times 18 that you were at the Park, did you see a police presence? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Like, just driving around and stuff, 22 like, outside. 23 Q: All right. And were they driving 24 around in their cruisers? 25 A: Yeah. Yes.
191 Q: Did you see any -- any attempts by 2 individual police officers to get the attention of the 3 Park occupants? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Did you see any attempts by 6 Park occupants to gain the attention of individual police 7 officers? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. What -- what caused you 10 to go into the Park at all? 11 A: I don't really know. Just -- I don't 12 know. 13 Q: Well, was it important for you to be 14 there? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Why? 17 A: Because, like, I've heard my grandpa 18 talking about it, that it's a sacred burial ground. And 19 I don't know, because everybody else was there, too. 20 Q: Okay. Now, you said your grandpa 21 told you about there being a sacred burial ground at the 22 Park. Did he ever tell you where within the Park that 23 sacred burial ground was? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Were you taught by him or --
201 or others about the significance of sacred burial 2 grounds? 3 A: No. 4 Q: When you were in the Park, were there 5 any bonfires lit? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And do you recall where those 10 bonfires were lit? 11 A: Kind of. 12 Q: Tell me approximately what parts of 13 the Park? 14 A: Like beside the store. 15 Q: The Park store? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: What used to be there. 19 Q: Anywhere else that you can recall? 20 A: In front of the gate part, like the 21 fence. Alongside the fence and on top of the hill in 22 front of the beach. 23 Q: All right. And so are we talking 24 about the east side of the Park? 25 A: Yeah.
211 Q: Where the Army Camp Road is? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. Did you help keep the 4 fires going? 5 A: Sometimes. 6 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 7 of these bonfires, to your knowledge? 8 A: To keep warm and have some lighting. 9 Q: Okay. When you were at the Park, 10 were there also other children at the Park? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Were there any women at the Park? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Were there members from communities 15 other than Stoney Point at the Park? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And do you know which other 18 communities had people in the Park? 19 A: Oneida, Chippewa, Walpole and Kettle 20 Point. 21 Q: Okay. And it's Chippewas of the 22 Thames? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Do you know why those people were in 25 the Park with you?
221 A: To show support. 2 Q: Okay. To your knowledge, were Park 3 signs removed from the Park once you occupied it? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did you help out with that? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And who did you -- who did you assist 8 in taking down Park signs? 9 A: My cousin Dave. 10 Q: David George? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Why did you take down Park signs? 13 A: To burn them and -- because it wasn't 14 a Park no more -- 15 Q: What -- 16 A: -- so we really didn't need them. 17 Q: -- was it? What was it then, if not 18 a Park anymore? 19 A: I don't know. Part of our land, I 20 guess. And -- yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Were you involved in any other 22 such gestures or activities aimed at, if you will, 23 staking out your land? 24 A: Not that I remember. 25 Q: Okay. Now, you talked about a Park
231 store. Is that store there any more? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And is this Park store 4 located on the east side of the Park, where Army Camp 5 Road is? 6 A: I think it's south. 7 Q: And -- south, okay. But, southeast, 8 that's right? West? West, perhaps? 9 A: Oh yeah. 10 Q: Sorry. If you look at the diagram 11 but -- it's been a long holiday, clearly. That's a map 12 of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 13 Drive and so was the Park store in that vicin -- vicinity 14 of the Park? 15 A: It's, like, more over here. 16 Q: Okay. And the Witness, just for the 17 record, is pointing to the fence line bordering the sandy 18 parking lot, what we've been called the sandy parking 19 lot. 20 All right. Now, did you enter the Park 21 store when you went into the Park? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And what did you have to do to enter 24 that store? 25 A: Pry open the door.
241 Q: Yes. So, it was locked? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And when you pried open the door, 4 what happened? 5 A: The door opened. No -- 6 Q: Okay. I need to know that too. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: Did anything else happen? 9 A: An alarm went off. 10 Q: All right. And did the alarm get 11 turned off eventually? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Why did you enter into that locked 14 store? 15 A: Because I wanted to see what it 16 looked like inside. 17 Q: All right. And what did you see 18 inside? Were -- was there any goods left in there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Now, was the -- was the 21 lighting system in the store working to your knowledge? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. And were there lights 24 around the outside of that store? 25 A: I can't remember.
251 Q: Okay. Were there some refrigeration 2 units in that store? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And anything else of 5 significance in the store? Were there like counters 6 or...? 7 A: Oh yeah. Like shelves to set goods 8 on tor whatever. I think that was it. 9 Q: Okay. And did you take anything from 10 that store? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Now, did you -- you 13 indicated that you saw police around the Park when they'd 14 drive in their cruisers. Did you also see police 15 officers, individual officers standing in or around the 16 fence area of the Park or in the sandy parking lot area 17 or the roadways there? 18 A: Like -- 19 Q: Would they be standing around? 20 A: Like in the sandy park? 21 Q: Well the sandy park or on the paved 22 roads bordering them? 23 A: Well, I seen them like more down Army 24 Camp Road. 25 Q: Okay.
261 A: And like more down East Parkway. 2 Q: So, the individual police officers 3 tended to stay on the paved roadway; is that fair? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And did you have any -- engage 6 in any activities with those police officers from within 7 the Park? 8 A: Pardon? Could you repeat the 9 question? 10 Q: Sure. Did you have any interactions 11 with those police officers from within the Park? Were 12 you playing any tricks or anything like that on them? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Can you tell us what you did? 15 A: Like, reflecting mirrors. Like, the 16 sunlight into the mirror into their face. 17 Q: All right. And why would you do 18 that? 19 A: I don't know. To be annoying. 20 Q: Whose idea was that? 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: And did others do that with you? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And were there any adults who 25 participated in this?
271 A: No. 2 Q: So, they were other children your age 3 approximately? 4 A: Younger. 5 Q: Younger than you? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. Where did you get those 8 mirrors? 9 A: I can't remember. I don't know. 10 They were just there I guess, I don't know. 11 Q: Do you know whether they came from 12 the bathrooms there? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: Do you recall how big the one was 15 that you were using? 16 A: No. It was like a great big circle 17 one I think. 18 Q: Okay. And how long did you carry on 19 with that activity? 20 A: Probably like half hour maybe. 21 Q: Okay. And did you do that more than 22 once? 23 A: I can't remember. 24 Q: Okay. Did somebody tell you to stop? 25 A: I don't think so.
281 Q: So, you stopped on your own accord 2 because you got bored or something? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether any 5 police officers asked you to please stop? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. And how far away were the 8 police officers that you targeted with the mirrors? 9 A: They were like on the paved part of 10 the road -- like, here. 11 Q: So, you're pointing on East Parkway 12 Drive? Okay. And how far into the Park would you have 13 been? 14 A: I don't know how many feet, but it's 15 the parking lot. And then, like, on the other side under 16 the trees. 17 Q: All right. So, when you say the 18 parking lot -- 19 A: Like inside the Park. 20 Q: Inside the Park? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. Just on the other side of the 23 fence from the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Now, for those time periods
291 that you were in the Park, did you hear or see anyone 2 lighting firecrackers? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Did you hear anything that 5 sounded like firecrackers being lit off? 6 A: Other than the gunshots, no. 7 Q: Okay. And when you say, Other than 8 gunshots, what period of time are you referring to? 9 A: When Dudley was shot. 10 Q: Okay. So, the evening of Wednesday, 11 September the 6th? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: How about prior to that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. For those times that you 16 were within the Park, did you see any helicopter 17 activity? 18 A: I can't remember. 19 Q: All right. Did you see any boats out 20 in the lake that day or on the days that you were in the 21 Park? 22 A: Yeah. Well, in the night. 23 Q: In the night, okay. How many boats 24 did you see? 25 A: One (1).
301 Q: And do you know what it was doing? 2 A: Just sitting there. 3 Q: So it was anchored -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- from what you could tell? All 6 right. Did you ever see any police officers inside the 7 Park during the times that you were there? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Including the first time you entered 10 the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: For those times that you were in the 13 Park, did you see anyone with guns or firearms of any 14 sort between September the 4th and the 6th, 1995? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you hear any conversations or 17 discussions around the possibility of bringing guns into 18 the Park during the course of that time period? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you hear any gun shots during the 21 evenings of Monday, September the 4th or Tuesday, 22 September the 5th, 1995, either within the Park or within 23 the Army Camp lands? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you hear any sounds that may have
311 sounded like gunshots during either or both of those 2 evenings? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now this Inquiry may hear evidence of 5 reported gun shooting either within the Park or on the 6 Army camp lands during the evenings of September 4th 7 and/or 5th, 1995. 8 If that evidence were to come forward, 9 would that alter your recollection? 10 A: I don't think so. 11 Q: All right. And is it fair to say 12 that during those evenings you were either in the Park or 13 in the barracks? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: To your knowledge, did anyone have 16 guns at the barracks during that period of time? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Were you present at any discussions 19 concerning the appropriateness or lack of appropriateness 20 of bringing guns into the Park during the occupation? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you see any alcoholic beverages 23 being consumed at the Park at any time that you were 24 there? 25 A: No.
321 Q: And again, were you part of any 2 discussions concerning the appropriateness or lack 3 thereof of bringing alcohol into the Park during the 4 occupation? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now we have heard some evidence that 7 one or more police cruisers may have made contact with 8 picnic tables during the course of the occupation of the 9 Park. 10 Did you witness anything like that? 11 A: Kind of. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you say "kind of", were you 15 present? 16 A: I think so. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: It's hard to remember. 19 Q: Can you tell me whether -- or what -- 20 tell me what it is you do remember about that? 21 A: Making a blockade, kind of, with 22 picnic tables. 23 Q: Okay. Where was that? 24 A: In the sand -- in the sand covered 25 parking lot outside of the Park.
331 Q: Okay. Yes, and -- and when you say a 2 blockade, how were they being positioned, the picnic 3 tables? 4 A: Like, so they'd be like the long way, 5 like right across there. 6 Q: All right. So you're saying a line, 7 basically -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- of picnic tables from one end of 10 the sandy parking lot to the other. Is that fair? 11 A: Well not like -- so no-one could 12 drive in or out. 13 Q: Okay. All right. And do you recall 14 approximately how many picnic tables were there? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And was this during daylight or -- or 17 night time, in the dark? 18 A: I believe it was daytime. 19 Q: Okay. And where were you? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Okay. Were you in the vicinity? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: You were able to see what was going 24 on? 25 A: Yes.
341 Q: So tell us what you saw. 2 A: I see -- I don't remember who it was, 3 but they were moving the picnic tables. Like piling them 4 up kind of. And then a cruiser came and like smashed 5 them while the two (2) people were carrying one table. 6 And it was like the cruiser just smashed into it 7 actually. Well not like -- well moved it like forcefully 8 I guess. 9 Q: Okay. And these two (2) individuals, 10 were they members of the Park occupants? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you're saying that they were 13 carrying the picnic table into the sandy parking lot? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And you saw one (1) police cruiser 16 come forward? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Was there -- did you see or overhear 19 any warnings by the police in relation to the picnic 20 tables being moved into the sandy parking lot? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now, were you close enough that you 23 could have heard such a comment? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. So, you were some
351 distance from this event? 2 A: Yep. 3 Q: So, you could see it but you couldn't 4 hear it? All right. Did you see any police officer get 5 out of a car before the cruiser advanced to the picnic 6 table? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And when the -- let me just be clear. 9 Did the police cruiser actually make contact with the 10 picnic table? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And how can you be certain about 13 that? 14 A: Because I seen it. 15 Q: You saw it? Okay. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And what happened to the picnic table 18 after the cruiser made contact with it? 19 A: It like kind of rolled over. 20 Q: Okay. What happened to the 21 individuals who had been carrying it? 22 A: Like they moved. 23 Q: All right. And what -- what 24 happened next? 25 A: Yelling and stuff. I can't remember.
361 Q: Okay. Was there rock throwing after 2 that incident? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: All right. Did you participate in 5 any rock throwing? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Okay. Now when you saw 8 this event, were you actually on the sandy parking lot or 9 were you somewhere else? 10 A: Like in the parking lot more towards 11 the water. 12 Q: Toward but closer to the water. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. What happened after the 15 yelling and stuff. 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Did the police cruiser 18 eventually leave? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Do you know whether there 21 were any -- was there only one police cruiser in that 22 vicinity at the time of this incident? 23 A: I think two (2). 24 Q: Two (2)? All right. Do you know 25 what the other cruiser did?
371 A: No. 2 Q: At any time did you see any police 3 officers get out of their cars? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. So there was yelling and 6 -- and the cruisers then left? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Is that right? 9 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 10 Q: And what happened after the cruisers 11 left? 12 A: Piled picnic tables back up. 13 Q: So resumed the activity of -- of the 14 blockade building? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. Now at the time of this 17 picnic table incident, do you recall whether a bon fire 18 had been lit at -- in the parking lot area, the sandy 19 parking lot area? 20 A: No. I can't remember. 21 Q: Okay. And, was there any -- any 22 structures there? Any tents or tee-pees or anything like 23 that? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: All right. Okay. And what did you
381 do after the police cruisers left the scene? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: All right. Did you assist in 4 building the blockade at all? 5 A: Maybe. But I don't remember. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall who the 7 individuals were who had been carrying that particular 8 picnic table? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Did you look at the 11 picnic table after it had been struck by the police car? 12 A: I don't think so. 13 Q: All right. Now were you involved at 14 any other incidents involving picnic tables and police 15 officers? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now did you observe any verbal 22 exchanges between Dudley George and any police officers 23 at any time that you were at the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Do you recall
391 specifically whether you were in the Park on Wednesday, 2 September the 6th? This is the day that Dudley George 3 was shot. 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. Do you recall whether you 6 entered the Park later that day? 7 A: After Dudley was shot? 8 Q: No, before -- before. 9 A: The day before or the same day? 10 Q: Same day, but before the incident. 11 A: I think so. 12 Q: Okay. And when you arrived at the 13 Park on September the 6th, did you notice any change in 14 the magnitude of the police presence around the Park? 15 A: Ah -- I can't remember. 16 Q: All right. Did you see any 17 helicopter activity over the Park that day? 18 A: Still can't remember. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall yourself, 20 personally, whether you gathered or collected any rocks 21 or sticks or other objects that could be used in either 22 to defend yourself or in an aggressive manner? 23 A: I can't remember. 24 Q: Okay. We've heard evidence from 25 Marlin Simon that on Wednesday, September the 6th, he
401 brought some filled gasoline tanks into the Park on the 2 school bus that was at the Army camp. Do you -- do you 3 know about that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Did you see any filled 6 gasoline tanks in the bush or anywhere around the Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you see any -- any Molotov 9 cocktails or the makings of such things or fire bombs, in 10 the Park that day? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Now, we've have also heard evidence 13 that on September the 6th, a number of mock car chases 14 were being conducted involving what was called the OPP 15 WHO? car, up and down the -- the road inside the Army 16 Camp, that parallels Army Camp Road. 17 Did you know anything about that? 18 A: No, no. 19 Q: You weren't part of that -- those car 20 chases? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Were you involved in any 23 activities which were designed to either defend yourself 24 or barricade yourself into the Park? 25 A: Could you repeat the question --
411 Q: Sure. 2 A: -- for me, please? 3 Q: What I'm trying to find out is 4 whether -- you told us earlier, for example, that you and 5 your cousin Dave removed Park signs -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- and burned them. Were you 8 involved in any other activities on the 6th that were 9 aimed at securing the Park or -- or defending yourself 10 within the Park? 11 A: Not that I remember. 12 Q: Okay. Did you see any guns or 13 firearms within the Park when you were there on September 14 the 6th? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you overhear any conversations or 17 were you aware of any plans to bring guns into the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Were you aware of any plans or 20 discussions to bring persons from other First Nation 21 communities, from warrior societies, to assist with the 22 defence of the Park? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you witness an incident involving 25 your father and Gerald George on September the 6th, 1995?
421 A: Yeah. 2 Q: You were? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And what -- what did you see? 5 A: I seen a cop club my dad and I seen 6 Slippery getting dragged out. 7 Q: Okay. Just -- back up. I think you 8 didn't hear my -- my question. I asked whether you 9 witnessed an incident involving your father and Gerald 10 George on September the 6th? 11 A: Is that Slippery? 12 Q: That's not Slippery. 13 A: Okay, no. 14 Q: That's -- 15 A: No, no. 16 Q: Okay. Did you see Cecil Bernard 17 George also known sometimes as Slippery, when he entered 18 the Park? 19 A: Did I see him enter the Park? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you see him afterwards? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And when is the first time you saw 25 him?
431 A: I can't remember. But I seen him. 2 Q: Do you know whether it was before or 3 during September the 6th? The day that Dudley George was 4 shot. 5 A: I think it was the same day. 6 Q: Okay. And do you know why Cecil 7 Bernard George entered -- came into the Park on -- on 8 September the 6th? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Were there still women and children 11 in the Park that day when you were there? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Leaving aside the 14 confrontation of the evening of Wednesday, were you 15 involved or did you have any direct contact with the 16 police? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you see any direct interactions 19 between the police and any of the Park occupants prior to 20 the confrontation which occurred later that evening? 21 A: I can't remember. 22 Q: To your knowledge, were there any 23 attempts made by the police to negotiate with or speak to 24 the occupants in an effort to resolve the dispute? 25 A: No. I can't remember.
441 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether any Park 2 occupants attempted to negotiate with or talk to the 3 police in an effort to resolve this dispute? 4 A: Still can't remember. 5 Q: Did you observe any interactions, 6 hostile or pleasant, between any of the occupants and the 7 neighbouring cottagers on Wednesday, September the 6th? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you have any knowledge or 10 awareness that the police wished for you to stay inside 11 the Park fence lines? 12 In other words that as long as you stayed 13 inside the Park fence line, there would be no 14 difficulties, but if you went over that fence there would 15 be? 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: All right. Let's move then onto the 18 evening of Wednesday, September the 6th, 1995. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Okay? First, were you at the Park 21 that night? 22 A: Yep. 23 Q: Why were you there? 24 A: Because my father was there. 25 Q: Were people still going out into the
451 sandy parking lot area that evening? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: We have heard some evidence that the 4 picnic tables that you described as being there earlier 5 were no longer in the sandy parking lot area. 6 Do you recall one way or another? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You don't recall whether there were 9 picnic tables in the sandy parking lot in the evening? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: Okay. Did you see any walkie talkies 12 or radio scanners in the Park that evening? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. I take it you didn't overhear 15 any conversations on any radio scanners that evening? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Is that -- that fair? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Did you see any police 20 marching along East Parkway Drive that night? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Do you recall whether it was before 23 or after the sunset? 24 A: After. 25 Q: Do you know approximately what time
461 in the evening it was? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. Now, I'm going to make 4 reference to the map behind you during this part of our 5 examination, and it's the intersection of Army Camp Road 6 and East Parkway Drive. That's right. That's right. 7 And the sandy parking lot is shown there. 8 You see that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And you see where the fence line is 11 through the Park on the right of that diagram? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And do you also see the two (2) 14 driveways to the cottages on the left side -- the centre 15 and left side of that diagram? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: That's right. Okay. I'd like to 18 make this diagram the next exhibit, as I intend to refer 19 to that. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-114, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-114. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-114: "Stan" Thompson drawing, Sept 24 20/95 marked by Witness Ian 25 White, Jan 10/05.
471 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Okay. My first question is: Where 4 were you when you first saw the police marching down East 5 Parkway Drive? 6 A: Around here. 7 Q: Okay. Do me a favour and take that 8 microphone to your right. Pick that up. That's great. 9 And perhaps you would take the black marker that's in 10 front of you. Thank you. 11 And if you don't mind standing up and 12 putting an X, small X and number 1 at the location you 13 were at when you first noticed the police. 14 That's X-1, for the record. 15 A: (INDICATING) 16 Q: Okay. So you're behind the fenced 17 Park line and the line of trees there? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Inside the Park? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Now, tell me what sources of 22 lighting there was that permitted you to observe police 23 officers marching down the road? 24 A: I think street lights. 25 Q: Street lights?
481 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: Were there bonfires going still in 3 that area? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. Do you know whether there 6 were any spotlights or headlights from cars or vehicles 7 inside the Park at that time? 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: And was it a full moon or was there 10 light -- was there lighting from the moon; do you recall? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: Okay. How far away were the police 13 from you when you first saw them then? 14 A: Like around here. 15 Q: All right. And you're pointing to 16 just before the -- one of the driveways. What's the 17 address there? 18 A: Six eight forty-two (6842). 19 Q: Thank you. Sixty eight forty-two 20 (6842). All right. And so, that's the approximate 21 location when you first see the police officers? 22 A: Not the approximate but around there. 23 Q: Okay. Around there? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Fair enough. And, who were you with
491 when you first saw the police? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: What did you see -- or, sorry, what 4 did you do when you first saw the police? 5 A: I don't know, just stayed there, I 6 guess. 7 Q: Stood there? 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: Did you have anything in your hands 10 at that time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And when you see the police marching 13 down, can you describe what formation they were in? 14 A: Like, they were lined up behind each 15 other, like, I don't know -- I don't know how many there 16 was but probably like ten (10) in a row, and another ten 17 (10) and another ten (10) or whatever, something like 18 that. 19 Q: All right. Now, when you say, Ten 20 (10) in a row, are you -- were the police officers lined 21 up shoulder to shoulder or -- 22 A: Yeah. Shoulder to shoulder and then 23 behind, like -- 24 Q: And then behind. 25 A: -- another row behind.
501 Q: Okay. And there are a number of rows 2 but you couldn't tell how many? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Fair enough. And what were they 5 doing besides marching, if anything? 6 A: Banging their shields with some baton 7 thing. 8 Q: Okay. Could you see those shields? 9 A: Reflecting police thing, sign, or 10 whatever. 11 Q: You could see the -- the inscription 12 "Police"? 13 A: Yeah, in the plastic. 14 Q: And do you recall what kind of 15 outfits or gear the police officers were wearing -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- from what you could see? 18 A: It was black and, like, bulletproof 19 vests. 20 Q: Were they wearing anything on their 21 heads? 22 A: Oh, yeah, helmets. 23 Q: Helmets? Okay. And anything 24 attached to those helmets? 25 A: Like, shields over the face.
511 Q: Okay. And you said that you thought 2 they had batons that they were striking their shields 3 with? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And what kind of noise did 6 that make? 7 A: It was like, I don't know, like 8 something like, "knock, knock"; way louder than that. I 9 don't know. 10 Q: A pretty loud noise? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And were they saying anything 13 as they marched towards the Park? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Now, from your vantage 16 point from within the Park did you hear any directions or 17 orders, if you will, being given by any of the Park 18 occupants in response to seeing the police coming down 19 East Parkway Drive? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. Besides, from yourself, were 22 there other youth or children in the Park in that area 23 that you knew of? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall who?
521 A: No. 2 Q: Were -- did you see any women in that 3 area? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Were you with your father at this 6 time? 7 A: I think so. I can't remember. 8 Q: All right. All right. Now, tell me 9 what you saw as the police are marching towards the Park? 10 Did they stop at some point? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: You -- can you show me on the diagram 13 where they stopped? 14 A: Like, around here. 15 Q: All right. Can you just mark an X 16 with the number two (2) to signify where the police first 17 stopped. 18 A: (INDICATING). 19 Q: And, for the record, you've indicated 20 just prior -- on East Parkway Drive, just prior to the 21 bend in the road; is that fair? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And when the police stopped 24 what, if anything, did they do? 25 A: Stand there.
531 Q: All right. And did the occupants do 2 anything in response to that? 3 A: Can't remember. 4 Q: Okay. What -- what were you doing at 5 this point? 6 A: Still standing there watching. 7 Q: Still watching? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And what happens next? 10 A: I don't know. I can't remember. 11 Like, I don't want to remember it all. But, like, I 12 don't know. It's like a bad dream and I can't remember. 13 Q: Okay. Do you know whether you, 14 yourself, walked over the fence into the sandy parking 15 lot at this point? 16 A: No. 17 Q: So you stayed behind the fence line. 18 Okay. And did you see what the police did after they 19 stopped, if anything? 20 A: No. I can't remember. 21 Q: All right. Did you observe the 22 police at any time coming towards the fence area of the 23 Park? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And what, if anything,
541 did the Park occupants do in response to the police 2 moving forward to the fence area? 3 A: I don't remember. 4 Q: All right. Did you continue to stay 5 in the approximate location that you've marked at X-1 6 when the police approached the fence? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And at this time did you have 9 anything in your hands or did you look around to pick up 10 anything? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you see any of the 13 Park occupants go over the fence? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. And do you know who the 16 first person was to go over the fence? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Were you still standing at X-1 19 when the Park occupants went over the fence and into the 20 Sandy Parking Lot? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And tell me what it is 23 you saw in -- in the order of events? What did you see? 24 A: Like, tell the whole thing? 25 Q: Tell us what you saw as people went
551 over the -- the fence? What were they doing? What were 2 the police doing in response? Tell me -- 3 A: I believe -- or I don't know if my 4 dad went over the fence or if he stayed on our side. 5 Like, it's hard to remember. But -- because somebody hit 6 my dog or whatever, did something to it and then he 7 yelped. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And then he said, like, Who hit my 10 dog? And some -- one of the officers said, I did. What 11 are you going to do about it? And then they clubbed my 12 dad so my dad clubbed him back. 13 Q: Okay. All right. So, let's just 14 back up for a moment. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Now, you -- you said that your dog 17 was in -- in the -- in the area? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. Why was your dog their? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Because I brought him there, I think. 23 I can't remember. 24 Q: You -- you think you brought -- you 25 don't know?
561 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: All right. And what kind of a dog 3 was it? 4 A: Like, mixed dog. Like a mutt. 5 Q: Okay. All right. Do you know what 6 colour it was? 7 A: Black. 8 Q: Okay. And how big was it? 9 A: Full grown, actually. It was big. 10 Q: How many pounds approximately? 11 A: Probably seventy (70) maybe. 12 Q: About seventy (70) pounds? All 13 right. And you said it was fully grown. Was this a male 14 or female dog? 15 A: Male. 16 Q: All right. Was this dog aggressive 17 in any way? 18 A: Kind of. 19 Q: Okay. When you say kind of, had he 20 bitten people before? 21 A: Like he'd protect myself, yeah, or 22 anybody coming into our house, yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And -- and when you say yeah, 24 had he -- has he bitten -- had he bitten anyone before? 25 A: No.
571 Q: Okay. So, he was a very protective 2 dog of you and your home? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And when he was in the 5 protective mode, what would he do, bark? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Bear his teeth? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Growl? 10 A: Like, mostly bark. 11 Q: Mostly bark, okay. And you heard 12 your dog yelp. Did you see where your dog was when he'd 13 yelped? 14 A: He come running from out in the 15 parking lot, from where the cops were. 16 Q: The sandy parking lot? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. Then your father said 19 then -- yelled into the crowd, Who's hitting my dog, or 20 words to that affect? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And you -- you heard a police officer 23 say what? 24 A: I -- what are you going to do about 25 it or something, I can't remember the exact words but
581 something like that. 2 Q: All right. And in response, what did 3 your father do? 4 A: I can't remember who clubbed who 5 first but there was like some clubbing going on. 6 Q: Okay. And -- and that clearly 7 involved your father? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Did it involve other occupants? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And was your father -- 12 what side of the fence was he on when the clubbing 13 started? 14 A: I can't remember. 15 Q: All right. And did it involve him 16 clubbing police officers? 17 A: Pardon? 18 Q: Did he club some police officers? 19 A: Yeah. Well, I don't know. 20 Q: Okay. And did you see whether or not 21 he was struck? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Was he? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And -- and then what
591 happened? Did the dog come back in? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And what -- what did you see your 4 father do? 5 A: I can't remember. 6 Q: Okay. At this point, are you still 7 at the location of X-1 approximately? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. All right. Now you said your 10 dog came back from the -- where the police were, where -- 11 where did your dog go to, did you see? 12 A: No. I think -- I can't remember. 13 Q: All right. At some point, did you 14 get your dog? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do with your 17 dog when you got him? 18 A: I put him on the bus. 19 Q: Okay. And what bus is that? 20 A: The only bus that was there. 21 Q: Can you -- all right. Would you 22 please -- do you know who owned that bus? 23 A: I think Warren George. 24 Q: All right. And what kind of a bus 25 was it?
601 A: A school bus. 2 Q: Had that -- have you seen that bus in 3 the Park before that evening? 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: Were you familiar with this bus? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. What were you -- where 8 were you familiar from this -- why were you familiar with 9 this bus? 10 A: Because it was parked down the beach 11 and it was like used for kind of like a motorhome type 12 thing. Like the seats were -- some of the seats were 13 taken out and replaced with couches and beds. Yeah like 14 that. It was like a hangout place for kind of the young 15 kids. 16 Q: Okay. And like did you sleep there 17 some time? 18 A: No. I hung out there. 19 Q: Okay, fair enough. Can you describe 20 the interior of the bus a little bit more in more detail? 21 You said some of the seats were removed and -- and boards 22 put in for -- for beds -- like cots? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Were there some seats still in there? 25 A: Yeah.
611 Q: And anything else in the bus? 2 A: Coffee tables -- well one (1) coffee 3 table. I think a chair. I can't remember. 4 Q: Okay. All right. And to your 5 knowledge were any of the windows in the bus broken? 6 A: I don't think so. 7 Q: All right. And were there any 8 curtains or anything like that on the windows? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Was there an emergency door at the 11 back of this bus? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. And to your knowledge was 14 this bus operational? In other words, could it be 15 driven? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Do you know whether there 18 were any mechanical problems with this bus? 19 A: No, I don't know. 20 Q: Okay. Where was the bar -- the bus 21 parked when you put your dog on it? 22 Maybe you can show -- can you show us on 23 that map? And take the microphone with you. 24 A: Like, around here. 25 Q: All right. Could -- that's okay. I
621 think it was on before. That's it. 2 A: Like, around here. 3 Q: All right. Would you please mark 4 with an X-3 the location of the bus, where it was parked 5 when you put the dog on it? 6 A: (INDICATING). 7 Q: Okay. And it's just at the very 8 outer edge of the right side of the diagram? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. Now, when you went over to the 11 bus to put your dog on it, do you know what was going on, 12 if anything, out in the sandy parking lot? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? 15 A: Not really. 16 Q: All right. Prior to putting the dog 17 on -- well, let me ask you this. What did you do after 18 you put the dog on the bus? 19 A: I think I stayed on there. I can't 20 remember. 21 Q: Okay. Why did you put the dog on the 22 bus? 23 A: So, he wouldn't get hurt. 24 Q: And -- and why did you go on the bus? 25 A: To put my dog on the bus.
631 Q: Sorry? 2 A: To put my dog on the bus. 3 Q: Why did you stay on the bus? 4 A: I don't know. I felt safer there, I 5 guess. 6 Q: Okay. Prior to putting the dog on 7 the bus, did you see any -- any events involving Cecil 8 Bernard George? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: What did you see? 11 A: I seen him being dragged and being 12 kicked by officers. 13 Q: And when you saw him in that 14 position, where -- where had you been standing? 15 A: I can't remember. 16 Q: Okay. Were you -- what side of the 17 fence were you on? 18 A: Inside the Park. 19 Q: All right. And did this happen 20 before or after your dog was hit? 21 A: After. 22 Q: All right. Did you see Slippery go 23 out in to the sandy parking lot? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you see whether or not he had
641 anything in his hand out in the -- the sandy parking lot? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: Okay. And you say that you saw him 4 dragged and kicked, were you actually able to see that? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Given the lighting conditions, how 7 was it that you were able to see that? 8 A: I don't know but I could see it. 9 Q: All right. And how many officers did 10 you see involved in that event? 11 A: I couldn't count them. I don't know. 12 Like, ten (10) maybe; around there. 13 Q: All right. Could you see Mr. George 14 actually on the ground? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Wasn't he covered by surrounding 17 police officers? 18 A: Like, I could see him from, like, the 19 space in their legs. 20 Q: Okay. And did you see where they 21 took Mr. George? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. At that point in time did you 24 go on to the bus? 25 A: I think so. I can't remember.
651 Q: All right. Fair enough. Did you 2 witness any altercation or any -- any altercations 3 between the Park occupants and the police officers out in 4 the sandy parking lot aside from Cecil Bernard George's 5 involvement? 6 A: Kind of, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And can you just give us a 8 sense as to what you were thinking and -- and feeling as 9 you were observing this? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: Okay. Fair enough. In any event, 12 you go onto the bus with your dog. Was there anybody 13 else on the bus when you entered it? 14 A: I don't think so. It's hard to 15 remember. 16 Q: Okay. Now, aside from the usual 17 objects on the bus that you described, was there anything 18 different on that bus? 19 A: I don't think so. 20 Q: Do you recall, for example, whether 21 you saw any filled gasoline tanks in there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you see any rocks or weapons of 24 any kind in there? 25 A: No.
661 Q: Did you see any firebombs or firebomb 2 makings in there? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. And did you close the 5 door behind you when you went in? 6 A: I can't remember. 7 Q: All right. Can you remember which 8 door you entered? 9 A: The normal door, I guess. 10 Q: The passenger door? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: As opposed to the emergency exit? 13 A: What do you mean by, opposed? Not 14 the exit door? 15 Q: Not the exit -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- as opposed to, yes -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- not the exit door? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. How long were you on that bus? 22 A: I can't remember. 23 Q: Did anybody join you on that bus? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Who?
671 A: My cousin, Nicholus. 2 Q: All right. And did anyone else get on 3 that bus at any point? 4 A: I don't know. I can't remember. 5 Q: Do you recall whether Robert Isaac 6 got on the bus at any time? 7 A: I can't remember. 8 Q: Okay. As far as you can remember, it 9 was you, your dog and Nicholus Cotrelle? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And no one else? 12 A: I think so. I don't know. I can't 13 remember. 14 Q: Okay. Now, do you know why -- why 15 Nicholus Cotrelle went onto the bus? 16 A: No. I don't know why. I didn't have 17 time to ask him. 18 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Tell me what 19 happened then -- let me ask you this; how many -- how 20 long were you on this bus before Nicholus joined you? A 21 long time? A short time? 22 A: A short time. 23 Q: Okay. And when Nicholus got on the 24 bus; what happened? 25 A: I think he started it up, but I don't
681 know. 2 Q: All right. Do you know whether the 3 headlights were put on? 4 A: I don't know. I can't remember. 5 Q: Fair enough. Where were you in the 6 bus when it started to move? What location within the 7 bus were you? 8 A: I don't know. I think I might have 9 been near the back or the middle. 10 Q: "Middle or back of the bus"? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And your dog was still with 13 you? A: Yeah. 14 Q: Were you basically holding on to him? 15 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did you overhear what was going 18 on outside as the bus started out? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Were you able to see outside from 21 where you were? 22 A: I can't remember. 23 Q: Okay. Were there windows around you? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And was anything covering those
691 windows? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And were you sitting or 4 standing or on the floor; do you recall? 5 A: I think I might have been sitting, I 6 don't know. 7 Q: Okay. All right. And, can you show 8 us, if you know, where -- at what point along the Park 9 boundary the bus left the Park? 10 A: Where it left? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: (INDICATING) 13 Q: Okay. And, again, would you please 14 take the marker and mark it with an X-4 representing the 15 exit point from the Park? 16 A: (INDICATING) 17 Q: All right. And can you just describe 18 what that location is for us please? 19 A: It's a gate. 20 Q: It's a gate? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And was -- was it a clear 23 passage for the bus to get through that gate? 24 A: No. It was blocked by a dumpster. 25 Q: And what happened to that dumpster?
701 A: It got smashed out of the way? 2 Q: By? 3 A: The bus. 4 Q: And was there any difficulty in 5 starting up the bus or did it start up right away? 6 A: I didn't start it. I wouldn't know. 7 Q: Well, could you hear whether the 8 engine struggled or whether it started up right away? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Did you hear any 11 backfires as it started up? 12 A: I don't think so. I can't remember. 13 Q: All right. All right. Now, did the 14 bus go forward in a forward direction as it exited the 15 Park? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And can you estimate how fast the bus 18 was going? 19 A: Like, a fast walk. 20 Q: Fast walk? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And can you tell me, based on 23 what you saw, can you show me on the map the path the bus 24 took to its most forward position? And, again, use your 25 marker.
711 A: And draw a line? 2 Q: Well, first of all, let's -- point -- 3 just point and then I'll get you to draw a line? 4 A: (INDICATING) 5 Q: Okay. And just for the record you're 6 pointing across the Sandy Parking Lot towards East 7 Parkway Drive. 8 Would you mark on the map with an X-5 the 9 furthest point that the bus got to, before it stopped? 10 A: (INDICATING) 11 Q: Okay. And can you just describe, 12 sitting back down, for the record where that location is 13 that you've just marked? 14 A: Kind of on the pavement. 15 Q: Okay. On the paved area and it looks 16 like it's the curve -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- of East Parkway Drive and Army 19 Camp but it's on the -- the side of East Parkway Drive, 20 the curve going into East Parkway Drive; is that fair? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. And it's on the southerly 23 part, the south curb if you will? 24 A: I think so. 25 Q: Towards the lake?
721 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. All right. Now why did the 3 bus stop there, do you know? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Or what was going -- sorry. What -- 6 what -- what was going on when you -- when the bus 7 stopped? 8 A: Smashing in and stuff of the bus and 9 like bullets hitting it and cops trying to get in the 10 back window. Like the emergency door window of the -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- near the floor. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. Commissioner, 14 I've just been reminded gently that -- that we have 15 probably exceeded the usual morning break time. So 16 perhaps this is an appropriate time to break for the 17 morning. Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. Fifteen (15) minute break. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:45 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 12:05 a.m. 25
731 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Thank you, Mr. White. Just going to 6 remind you that we both need to be close to the 7 microphone when we speak so that everyone can hear us. 8 Now just before the break, you were 9 describing to the Commission that the bus stopped in the 10 approximate area of the paved road area intersection of 11 East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road, that you hear 12 bullets hitting it and police trying to get into the back 13 window I think you said? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Is that right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Now at this point in 18 time, describe your position on the bus. 19 A: I think it was might have been -- or 20 okay, it was like -- had the laundry basket. Well there 21 was a laundry basket on there and I was like trying to 22 plug the window with it so that they couldn't get in. 23 Q: Okay. And so you were -- was the -- 24 was the window broken at this point? 25 A: Yeah.
741 Q: Had it been broken before this point 2 or do you know when it broke? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And what did you do with the 5 laundry basket? 6 A: I was like holding it -- holding it 7 there so they couldn't like get in or whatever. 8 Q: So you were using it to block the 9 window? 10 A: Yeah. To like plug it up, yeah. 11 Q: To plug it up. Okay. And can you 12 tell me what window it was on the bus? 13 A: The emergency door window. The one 14 that's on the floor. 15 Q: Okay. And were you on -- on your 16 knees or what position were you on? 17 A: I think my knees. 18 Q: Okay. Where was your dog at this 19 point? 20 A: I think he was like barking at them. 21 Q: All right. When you say that the 22 police were trying to get into the back window of the 23 emergency door, could you see what they were doing? 24 A: Not really. 25 Q: Okay. Could you hear it?
751 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Describe for me as carefully as you 3 can, what you were hearing at this moment. 4 A: Like gunshots and things banging on 5 the side of the bus and I don't know, like yelling but I 6 don't remember -- or I don't know what the words were 7 being said and stuff like that. 8 Q: Okay. Just come up to the mike for 9 me, thank you. Okay. And was -- this is very important 10 now. In terms of -- well, how do you know that these 11 were gunshots that were being fired as opposed to other 12 sounds? 13 A: I don't know. Well I assumed -- well 14 what else could it be? 15 Q: Okay. And do you recall the 16 approximate number of gunshots that you heard? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Was it an isolated gunshot or 19 a group? 20 A: A group. 21 Q: And were they all in a row or were 22 there gaps in between? 23 A: It was, like, clusters. Like, all at 24 once and, like, I don't know how long it lasted. But it 25 was like one after another.
761 Q: Okay. All right. Now, when you 2 heard the first gunshot was the -- can you describe the 3 movements of the bus? 4 A: It was going forward. 5 Q: All right. And to your knowledge, 6 had the bus reached the paved area yet or was it -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? It was still on the Sandy 9 Parking Lot? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And did the bu -- gunshots 12 continue as the bus stopped? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: "Yes"? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. Now, are you -- were you 17 able to see the location of the bus from where you were? 18 Do you know where the bus was when -- when it stopped? 19 A: I could kind of see out the window I 20 was trying to plug. 21 Q: And just tell me what you saw outside 22 the window? 23 A: Like, little bit of pavement and, 24 like, sand and stuff. Bush, kind of. 25 Q: Okay. So, in fairness, you're
771 looking out back; if you will, right? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Behind the bus? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And so what you're seeing is a bit of 6 the pavement and you're seeing the sandy parking lot 7 behind you? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And some of the bush? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. And what was going 12 through your mind as -- as you were plugging up the 13 window trying to prevent police officers from coming in? 14 A: I don't know. I don't know. 15 Q: All right. Now, as the bus 16 travelled, I'm going to take you back for a minute, 17 travelled across the parking -- the sandy parking lot -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- before you start to hear the 20 gunshots; did you hear anything else? Any other contact 21 with the bus? In other words, did you hear any thuds on 22 the bus? Anybody perhaps getting struck by the bus or 23 any batons hitting at the bus? Anything like that prior 24 to the gunshots starting? 25 A: Maybe the batons. I could hear
781 those. 2 Q: Okay. All right. And was there any 3 conversation happening between yourself and Nicholus as 4 the bus was moving forward? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: What -- what was -- what was said -- 7 what was being said? 8 A: He said, he got hit. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Like, by the bullet or a bullet or I 11 don't know I can't remember. But I asked him if he was 12 all right and he said, yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Nicholus volunteered that he 14 got hit and then you asked him if he was all right and he 15 said, yes; is that what you said? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Yes? Okay. And when did this 18 conversation occur; while the bus was moving forward or 19 stopped or going back? 20 A: Forward. 21 Q: Forward? Okay. So Nicholus 22 continued to drive after he said he got hit? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: So, can I ask you, again, why is it 25 that you think the bus stopped when it did?
791 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Okay. We'd have to ask Nicholus 3 that? 4 A: I guess. Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Fair enough. All right. Now, 6 after the bus stopped, how long did it stay in a 7 stationary position? 8 A: I don't know. Like, the beginning? 9 Q: Was it very long? 10 A: Not that long. 11 Q: On the pavement? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. And what was the next action 14 of the bus? The next movement? 15 A: Backwards. In reverse. 16 Q: Did it actually go into reverse as 17 opposed to turning around? 18 A: It went into reverse. 19 Q: Okay. And did you hear any -- any 20 mechanical difficulties with the bus as it went into 21 reverse? 22 A: A, kind of like, grinding sound. 23 Q: Okay. Of the gears? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And, eventually did it go
801 into reverse? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And, can you tell me how far it 4 backed up? 5 A: Like, just before the gate. 6 Q: Okay. So it backed up across the 7 Sandy Parking Lot again towards the gate? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And during this period of time, as 10 it's in reverse going towards the bus, did you hear or 11 see anything of significance? 12 A: What do you mean by "significance"? 13 Q: Anything that stands out in your mind 14 today? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Can you tell me what you saw or 17 heard? 18 A: I kind of -- well I did see Dudley 19 laying there on the ground. And like his shirt was 20 bloody and I knew he was shot. 21 Q: All right. Now where was the bus 22 looking to the intersection, again the diagram, where was 23 the bus when you saw Dudley George? 24 And I would like you to mark an X where 25 the bus was and where Dudley George was when you first
811 saw him. 2 A: Where Dudley was? 3 Q: First where the bus was and then 4 where Dudley was relative to the bus. 5 A: (INDICATING) 6 Q: Okay. You've just drawn a rectangle 7 for the bus I assume? All right. And that's where the 8 bus was when you first saw Dudley George? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. And where was Dudley 11 George relative to the bus and perhaps you can use an X 12 again and I think the Number 6, if I'm not mistaken? All 13 right. So Mr. George was closer to the fence than the 14 bus was? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: He was between the -- between the 17 fence and the -- and the bus? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right. And what direction were 20 you physically facing when you saw him? Where were you 21 on the bus? 22 A: I was in the back -- 23 Q: The back of the bus? 24 A: -- still, after the -- 25 Q: Still looking out the emergency door
821 window? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And do you know were you 4 on the ground still, like on your knees or -- or in a 5 different position? 6 A: I was like on my knees looking out 7 the window. 8 Q: Okay. And at this point in time, 9 were the police still trying to get into the bus? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And was -- did you -- 12 could you still hear anything like gunshots at this 13 point? 14 A: No -- I can't remember. I don't 15 think so. 16 Q: Okay. So is it your recollection 17 that the gunshots started at -- stopped at some point as 18 you went into reverse? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And did the police also stop 21 hitting the bus with batons once you went into -- the bus 22 went into reverse? 23 A: I think so. 24 Q: Okay. And, how was it that you were 25 able to make out Dudley George and know it was him that
831 you saw on the ground? 2 A: I could -- I don't know, recognize 3 him. 4 Q: Okay. You were close enough to see 5 him. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. And what position was he 8 in when you first saw him out the back of the bus? 9 A: I believe he was laying kind of on 10 his side. 11 Q: All right. And do you believe that 12 you could see a mark on his chest? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. And what happened -- what 15 did you see happen next in relation to Dudley George? 16 A: What did I see next? Like -- 17 Q: Yes. He's on the ground, did you 18 continue to watch? 19 A: Yeah. I had seen somebody -- like 20 two (2) other people pick him up and put him into the OPP 21 WHO car. 22 Q: Yes. And then what happened with the 23 OPP WHO car? 24 A: It drove off. 25 Q: All right. And in the meantime is
841 the bus still in reverse and proceeding back to the gate? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: So the bus didn't stop at this point, 4 it continued to move into the gate? 5 A: It was stopped and then it started 6 again, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. It stopped and then started, 8 all right. And did the bus make it back into the Park? 9 A: I think -- yeah. 10 Q: Can you just describe how that 11 happened? Was there any difficulty for it getting back 12 into the Park? 13 A: I don't think so. I can't remember. 14 Q: Okay. And at this point could you 15 see any police officers in or around the sandy parking 16 lot area any -- any longer? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you know whether -- what -- what 19 way they were travelling at this point? Did you see 20 them? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. All right. Now when the -- 23 where did the bus park? 24 A: In the same spot. 25 Q: About the same spot as X-3?
851 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. And what did you do next? 3 A: Get off the bus. 4 Q: All right. And at this time was your 5 dog still with you? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Did you observe anything of note 8 about the dog at this time? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. What about Nicholus? Did you 11 observe anything of note concerning him? 12 A: No. 13 Q: What did you do when you get off -- 14 when you got off the bus? 15 A: I can't remember. But I remember 16 meeting up with my dad. 17 Q: Okay. Now again, when the bus 18 reversed from X-5 back to the gate, approximately how 19 fast was it going? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. Was it in relation to its 22 forward movement -- was it the same; faster or slower? 23 A: Slower. 24 Q: Slower? Okay. Now, you told me that 25 as you left the Park you were either in the middle or
861 back of the bus but that by the time you advanced out to 2 the pavement you were at the back of the bus because you 3 remember you were plugging up the window and that's 4 basically where you stayed; is that fair, until you got 5 back into the Park? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. Can you be any more 8 specific in terms of your location now on the bus as you 9 drove out of the Park? In other words, whether you were 10 in the middle or the back or whether you were sitting, 11 standing or on the floor? 12 A: I was mostly towards the back. 13 Q: Okay. And were you mostly looking 14 out towards the back of the bus or did you look forward 15 at all? 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Will you just 18 give us a second. We're going to put an image or two up 19 on the screen. I'm going to ask you if you can identify 20 it for us? 21 A: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: All right. Just for the record, this
871 is -- Exhibit 24, Photograph 22, excuse me, 22. And can 2 you -- is that bus familiar to you? 3 A: It looks like the one, yeah. 4 Q: The one what? 5 A: That I was on. And that was at the 6 Park. 7 Q: Okay. That you were on that night? 8 Okay. And this is -- and this is Photograph Number 24. 9 And you'll see the name, Warren George on the side of 10 this bus; can you identify that for us? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Is that the same bus? 13 A: Yeah. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And this is Photograph 27, again, can 18 you identify that? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what is that? 21 A: It's the back of the bus. 22 Q: All right. And when you described 23 the window being broken and you putting the laundry 24 basket against it, can you just, using your red laser, 25 point to the window that you were referring to?
881 A: (INDICATING) Like, that one. 2 Q: Okay. And, for the record, that is 3 the bottommost window and it's a part of the emergency 4 door apparatus under the sign. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. This is Photograph Number 9 39. Now, can you recognize the interior of this bus? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And is there any significant changes 12 to the -- the way it looks from the night that you were 13 on it? 14 A: It was darker. 15 Q: Yes. But in terms of the objects and 16 design; is that how it looked? 17 A: Pretty much. Yeah. 18 Q: As you look -- as you look forward 19 down the bus from the back? Okay. I see there's a 20 coffee table there; that there are some seats available, 21 traditional bus seats. But there are also some couches 22 that you described; is that right? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. 25
891 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And just -- just for the record, 4 that's all part of Exhibit 24. Thank you. Okay. 5 Did you speak with Nicholus when he got 6 off the bus? 7 A: No. 8 Q: When you left the bus, did you see 9 any other police officers in the vicinity by that time? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And you said that you didn't - 12 - you didn't keep track of your dog at that point? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you or didn't you? 15 A: Didn't. 16 Q: Did not, okay. But you met up with 17 your father? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And do you know how long it took you 20 to find your father? Was it relatively quick or long? 21 A: It seemed quick. 22 Q: Quick, okay. And what did you do 23 after you met up with your father? 24 A: I think we walked back to the front. 25 Q: When you say, the front, what do you
901 mean? 2 A: To the barracks. 3 Q: You walked back to the barracks, 4 okay. And do you remember what route you took back? 5 A: By the garage or maintenance shed, or 6 whatever it's called. 7 Q: Okay. So the road that passes the 8 maintenance shed in the Park? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And then up to the -- the barracks 11 from there? 12 A: We got a ride. 13 Q: You got a ride? 14 A: From a little bit after the 15 maintenance shed. 16 Q: Okay. Who did you get a ride with? 17 A: I can't remember. 18 Q: Okay. And did you have any -- any 19 encounters with any police officers during the course of 20 getting back to the barracks? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you see any? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. And describe your 25 emotional state at this time, how you --
911 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: It's fair to say that everything was 3 about -- is a bit of a blur to you today? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And when you got back to the barracks 6 what did you find? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I can't remember. Did you see 10 Nicholas when you got back to the barracks? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you see any incidents 13 or interactions involving Nicholus when you got back to 14 the barracks? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you know what happened to him? 17 A: I think he was sent off in an 18 ambulance, kind of, I don't know. 19 Q: Okay. Did you not see any ambulances 20 up on Highway 21 at the -- near the gate area of the Army 21 Camp? 22 A: I think so. 23 Q: All right. Did you -- 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: You can't remember today?
921 A: It seems like I remember but I'm not 2 too sure. 3 Q: You're not too sure today? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. All right. Did you stay in 6 the barracks that night? 7 A: I think so, yeah. 8 Q: Do you recall where you stayed? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Where did you -- 11 A: Yeah, I did stay there. 12 Q: Where did you stay? 13 A: At my uncle Judas' house, or barrack. 14 Q: Okay. And do you recall seeing 15 Bonnie Bressette that night? 16 A: No. 17 Q: When you arrived back at the barracks 18 did you see anyone carrying firearms or guns of any kind? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you see anyone with firebombs or 21 Molotov cocktails or the makings of such objects that 22 night? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. Were there any members 25 from other communities at the Park the night of the
931 confrontation? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Do you recall what communities were 4 there or what members were there? 5 A: Oneida and Chippewa and Kettle Point 6 and Walpole. 7 Q: Okay. Do you know why these people 8 were at the Park Wednesday night? 9 A: Probably to show support. 10 Q: Did these members seem to you to take 11 any type of leadership role at the Park during the 12 confrontation that night? 13 A: No. 14 Q: What did you think about the fact 15 that there were other people from other First Nations 16 communities at the Park that night? 17 A: I thought it was, I don't know, good 18 for them to be there and showing support. 19 Q: To your knowledge, were the women and 20 children at the Park told by any of the men at the Park 21 to evacuate at the evening of September the 6th? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: You weren't something -- that was 24 something that was issued to you? You weren't told to 25 leave the Park?
941 A: No. Well, I think I was earlier but 2 I can't remember. 3 Q: Who do you think told you or -- 4 A: I think my dad. 5 Q: Okay. And was this before or after 6 the police started marching down East Parkway Drive? 7 A: Way before. 8 Q: Way before? 9 A: Like a few hours before. 10 Q: Okay. And why didn't you follow his 11 directions? 12 A: I don't know. Because I didn't want 13 to leave him there. 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: I didn't want to leave him there. 16 Q: Okay. Did he tell you why he thought 17 you should leave the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: At some point, did you learn of 20 Dudley George's fate? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Do you recall where you were when you 23 learned? 24 A: At my uncle's barrack. 25 Q: Uncle...?
951 A: Judas. 2 Q: Judas. Okay. Was it -- do you 3 remember was it -- what day it was you found out? 4 A: It was the night, that same night. 5 It was like really early in the morning. 6 Q: So early in the morning of September 7 7th, likely? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And how did you find out? 10 A: My cousin Charm. 11 Q: Which cousin? 12 A: Charm. 13 Q: Can you tell me his full name? 14 A: Her. 15 Q: Or her full name, excuse me. 16 A: Charmen Cotrelle. 17 Q: Charmen Cotrelle? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And what was your reaction when -- 20 when you found this out? 21 A: I can't remember. Probably start 22 crying. 23 Q: Do you remember what your thoughts 24 were about the police at that time? 25 A: No.
961 Q: And you were 14 years old when these 2 events occurred? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Now, let's go back to your -- your 5 dog for a moment? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Did you observe anything out of the 8 ordinary about your dog the next day? 9 A: He was kind of limping and he was 10 like, licking his leg. 11 Q: And did you inspect? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: What did you find? 14 A: A hole going straight through. 15 Q: Clean through? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And do you remember what leg it was? 18 A: No. One of his back legs. 19 Q: What -- did that leg eventually heal? 20 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And did you find out what caused that 23 wound? 24 A: No. I assumed it was a bullet. 25 Q: And why did you assume it was a
971 bullet? A: Because it went straight through and 2 he was on the bus. 3 Q: Okay. All right. Now, prior to the 4 dog getting -- your dog getting on the bus -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- had you observed him limping? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Had you observed a wound in his leg 9 prior to him getting onto the bus? 10 A: I -- no. I didn't have time. 11 Q: You told me earlier on that you 12 completed Grade 8 in or around June of 1995 and then I 13 think you said to me that you did return to school in the 14 -- in the Fall, it would have been, of '95? 15 A: I think so. 16 Q: And you would have gone into Grade 9? 17 18 A: I think so, yeah. 19 Q: And what school did you return to? 20 A: Alexander McKenzie in Sarnia. 21 Q: How long did you stay in -- in Grade 22 9? 23 A: About three (3) months, at the most. 24 Q: And why did you leave? 25 A: I felt unwanted and like, I don't
981 know, like I was -- like somebody was after me, like the 2 cops or something. I felt unsafe, and like, people were 3 racist towards me and, yeah, that's about it. 4 Q: And when you say that people were 5 racist towards you, where was that happening? 6 A: Like in the school. 7 Q: In the school itself? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And is this a public school in 10 Sarnia? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. Can you give me some 13 examples or any example of racism that -- that you feel 14 that you suffered or experienced at the school? 15 A: People calling down because it was 16 dirty around there. Like it looked junky and stuff. And 17 they're saying like how poor it looks and stuff. 18 Q: How poor you looked? 19 A: How poor it looked, like -- 20 Q: Oh, it looked. 21 A: -- Stoney Point. And how junky and 22 like I should do something about it. 23 Q: Okay. And were the events of 24 September 6th ever raised with you in a negative context 25 at the school?
991 A: No. I can't remember. 2 Q: Were you offered any counselling of 3 any sort at the school in light of these events? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Were you offered any help at all by 6 the school? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you tell anyone at your school 9 that -- that you felt unsafe and that you felt that you 10 were treated badly there? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Why not? 13 A: Because I didn't want them to know. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And I didn't even tell them that I 16 was residing in Stoney Point. 17 Q: Now, have you returned to or 18 attempted to return to school since? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when did you attempt to return to 21 school? 22 A: About two (2) years ago. 23 Q: And what type of program was it? 24 A: It was Adult Learning in London. 25 Q: Okay. Did you stay with it?
1001 A: No. 2 Q: Why not? 3 A: Because I still felt the same way. 4 Q: Tell me what that is -- the same way. 5 A: Like unsafe, like people are looking 6 at me different and stuff like that. Yeah. Like I felt 7 like I should be in Stoney Point. Like that's my home. 8 I just felt safer in Stoney Point. 9 Q: Can you think of any measures that 10 could be taken that would help you to feel safe pursuing 11 either education or other opportunities outside of Stoney 12 Point? 13 A: No. Not right now. 14 Q: And tell me what the primary reason 15 is for feeling unsafe? 16 A: Because I was being shot at and what 17 I've witnessed and yeah. Those are mainly the two (2) 18 things. 19 Q: Is it fair to say then that your 20 school life was effectively concluded by the events of 21 September the 6th, 1995? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Would you like to upgrade your 24 education now? 25 A: Yeah.
1011 Q: Can you tell me what's holding you 2 back now? 3 A: Still the same feelings. 4 Q: Okay. Have you received any form of 5 counselling, whether it's psychological, career 6 counselling, anything that -- to help you with this 7 problem? 8 A: Would I -- pardon? 9 Q: Have you received any kind of 10 counselling? 11 A: Oh, no. 12 Q: Is that something that you would be 13 prepared to accept if it was offered? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And what kind of counselling do you 16 think would help you? 17 A: I don't know. Whatever there is. 18 Q: Need somebody to talk down to you 19 about it? 20 A: Yeah 21 Q: Okay. Immediately after you learned 22 of Dudley George's death, did you have any -- any 23 sleeping difficulties? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Or any nightmares or bad dreams or
1021 anything like that? 2 A: Yeah. Well not right after but 3 probably a year, a year and a half after, I was having 4 nightmares. 5 Q: And what were they about? 6 A: The school bus. 7 Q: The school bus? Can you give us an 8 example? 9 A: Like just riding on the school bus 10 and being shot at. Like the same night. 11 Q: Okay. At any point when you were on 12 the school bus, did you fear for your life? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Now has your lack of education 15 affected your ability to get employment outside of the 16 Barracks? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: You told me that for the past four 19 (4) years or so you've been taking shifts manning the 20 gate at the Army Camp? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Have you had any other forms of 23 meaningful employment over the last ten (10) years? 24 A: What do you mean by, meaningful? 25 Q: By which I mean full-time employment?
1031 2 A: Seasonal. 3 Q: Seasonal, doing what? 4 A: Grading onions and moving barrels of 5 onions. 6 Q: So basically you work within the 7 confines of Stoney Point or the Army Barracks? 8 A: I worked at POG which is near Grand 9 Bend. 10 Q: Okay. Have you suffered in the past 11 ten (10) years any panic or anxiety attacks? 12 A: I've -- I don't know. My cousin 13 recently mentioned to me it seems like I'm suffering from 14 anxiety. Like, I feel like I've always got to do 15 something or be on the go. I, like, -- I'm like always 16 constantly looking over my back or something. 17 Q: Do you think that this -- these 18 events of September 6th have affected your ability to 19 trust people? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And all people or -- 22 A: Mostly, yeah. 23 Q: Okay. Do you have any social life 24 outside of the Stoney Point confines? 25 A: With other nations, yeah.
1041 Q: With other nations? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: How about in the non-aboriginal 4 community? 5 A: Not really. 6 Q: Do you belong to any clubs or 7 activities outside of the Stoney Point activities? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? What had been your career 10 aspirations before these events occurred in 1995? Had 11 you any? 12 A: No. 13 Q: In the last ten (10) years have you 14 been offered any assistance by any agency or government 15 department to help you through this? 16 A: No. 17 Q: In light of all that has happened, 18 Dudley George's death and what happened to Cecil Bernard 19 George, Nick Cotrelle's injury that you talked about, do 20 you regret your decision to have been part of the 21 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Why not? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: Have these events affected the way
1051 that you now think -- or think about the police? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: How so? 4 A: I feel like whenever I be pulled over 5 or go through a ride program that they're going to throw 6 me in jail for no reason and keep me there for I don't 7 know how long. But, yeah, I feel threatened, still, by 8 them. 9 Q: Mr. White, Commissioner Linden will 10 be making recommendations as to how to prevent similar 11 situations of violence in the future and I'm wondering 12 that, as a young person who went through these events, 13 what advice you might be able to give us in that respect? 14 A: I don't know. Think before you act. 15 Q: Think before you act? Okay. Anything 16 else? 17 A: No. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. I want to thank 19 you very much for your testimony. Perhaps we can -- if 20 you just stay on the stand. We'll -- we'll just go 21 through who may wish to cross-examine. Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. Does anybody wish to cross-examine this 24 witness and, if so, please indicate? Okay, one, two, 25 three, four.
1061 Do you have any idea how long you might 2 be? 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Five (5) minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 5 minutes. 6 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) minutes. 7 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Five (5) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 9 minutes. 10 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thirty (30) or forty 11 (40) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty (30) 13 or forty (40) minutes. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps, Commissioner, 15 at this time before we begin, I might give you an update 16 as to the status of our Witnesses. Mr. Cousins is not 17 available this afternoon. We were hoping at the thought 18 that he might be. There's matters in relation to the 19 funeral that he has to attend to this afternoon. 20 So we do not have, after Mr. White is 21 finished, we do not have a witness until Wednesday 22 morning. Mr. Cousins will be back on Wednesday morning 23 starting at 9:00 and Mr. -- depending on what time Mr. 24 Cousins is done on Wednesday, we would then start with 25 Mr. Gerald George, probably, I would assume, Wednesday
1071 afternoon. 2 And hopefully that would assist as well My 3 Friends who thought that Mr. Gerald George was going to 4 start on Thursday morning. But regrettably we do not 5 have a witness after Mr. Leland George until Wednesday 6 morning given the events in the community. It's affected 7 many, many people. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 9 funeral on Thursday as well? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. There's a funeral 11 Tuesday -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tuesday. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and a funeral 14 Wednesday. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And 16 Wednesday. Okay. Do you think it might not be a bad 17 idea then to take a break -- a lunch break now and come 18 back and do the cross- examination? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, we could take a 20 break now and then come back in at two o'clock -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two o'clock? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- for the cross- 23 examination. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And do the 25 whole cross-examination at that time. All right, let's
1081 do that. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 5 right with you; will you be -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 8 break from now until two o'clock and then do the cross- 9 examination. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 11 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 12 13 --- Upon adjourning at 12:45 p.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 17 resumed. Please be seated. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 21 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. White. 22 A: Good afternoon. 23 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I 24 represent the Estate of Dudley George and several members 25 of the George Family including Sam George who's sitting
1091 here beside me. And I have just a few questions I want 2 to ask you. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: We've heard evidence from your father 5 Stewart George, the people went into the Park because 6 there was a sacred burial grounds -- because there were 7 sacred burial grounds in the Park and because the Park 8 belonged to your people. 9 You've mentioned that you went into the 10 Park because of the burial grounds, correct? 11 Did you also believe that the Park 12 belonged -- I'm sorry, could you please say your answer 13 for the record? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Did you also believe that the Park 16 belonged to your people? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And was that also a reason for you 19 occupying the Park? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Thank you, Mr. White. I have no 22 further questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. 25
1101 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. White. My name 3 is Jackie Esmonde. I'm one of the lawyers representing 4 the Aazhoodena and George Family Group. That includes 5 some of the descendants of Dan and Melva George. There's 6 just a few details I wanted to get some clarification 7 from you for. 8 First of all, you were asked about the 9 route that the bus took when it left the Park. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And you drew a line -- you indicated 12 a line on the map. Did the bus follow a straight line 13 out to Number 5? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: So, I take it it wasn't weaving back 16 and forth while it moved forward? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And you've told us a little about 19 your position when you were on the bus that you were for 20 most of the time further back in the bus. 21 Is it the case also that at some point you 22 were laying down on the ground on the bus? 23 A: I could maybe. I don't know, I can't 24 remember. 25 Q: You can't recall. Do you recall
1111 laying on the ground, covering your dog? 2 A: Somewhat, yeah. 3 Q: Somewhat? 4 A: Yeah. It sounds familiar. 5 Q: It sounds familiar but -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- you don't have any particular 8 recollection of it today? 9 A: Kind of, but not clearly. 10 Q: Okay. Do you recall trying to 11 protect your dog from harm while it was on the bus? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: You were concerned your dog might be 14 shot? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you were also concerned that you 17 might be shot? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Now, you were also asked about 20 whether you recall seeing some ambulances later on, after 21 the shooting? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Up near the gate? 24 A: The -- 25 Q: The --
1121 A: -- highway. 2 Q: -- area. 3 Q: Yes, near the highway. And I think 4 this morning you said that you -- you thought you might - 5 - you weren't entirely sure, do you recall today if you 6 saw ambulances at that intersection? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: You do recall? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Can you tell me what you saw? 11 A: I just seen one (1) ambulance on -- 12 I'm pretty sure it's Highway 21. 13 Q: So, it was on Highway 21? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Right, near the intersection of Army 16 Camp Road and Highway 21? 17 A: Not right -- well, close to it, yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Would it have been to the east 19 or west of that intersection? 20 A: If you're coming out of Stoney 21 Point -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- and then it would be, like, 24 towards the right. 25 Q: Towards the right?
1131 A: Yeah. 2 Q: So that would be -- 3 A: West. 4 Q: -- west, yes. Thank you. Okay. So, 5 it was to the west of the intersection. And what was it 6 doing? 7 A: Just sitting there. 8 Q: Just sitting there. Do you know how 9 long you saw it sitting there for? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Where were you when you saw this? 12 A: Maybe at the gate. 13 Q: Maybe at the gate? 14 A: Yeah. I can't remember where exactly 15 I was. 16 Q: Okay. And you -- did you see some 17 police officers at that intersection? 18 A: I can't remember. 19 Q: Okay. I just would like to take you 20 to a statement you gave to the SIU, just to see if that 21 helps you to refresh your memory -- 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: -- of what you saw at that 24 intersection. You gave a statement to the SIU -- we have 25 one, I believe it's at Tab 1 of the book that's in front
1141 of you there. 2 Do you see at Tab 1 there's a -- it's 3 headed, Anticipated Evidence of Leland George? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And it says in the first sentence 6 there, the date is October 14th -- I'm going to assume 7 that's October 14th, 1995. 8 Do you recall giving a statement to the 9 SIU? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: You do? Do you -- 12 A: But, I don't remember all of it. 13 Q: Okay. Do you remember, was it in 14 1995 or later that you gave that statement? 15 A: I don't remember actually -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- the exact date. 18 Q: Okay. If you could just turn to page 19 15. Okay. 20 I'm looking at the top of the page. 21 You're being asked some questions there. I take it 22 earlier in the -- in the transcript of this interview 23 you had made a reference to seeing some ambulances. And 24 then you're asked some further questions about it here, 25 at page 15.
1151 And the -- Mr. Brown says: 2 "Yes. When you and your dad saw the 3 police officer ambulance, why -- why 4 did you -- why did you think they were 5 holding up Dudley's ambulance? How 6 could you tell that's what was going 7 on? 8 L. George: Because you could -- you 9 could see cops, they were checking out 10 the ambulance and the ambulance was 11 just sitting there for about ten (10) 12 minutes. 13 Brown: All right. And when you said 14 they were checking out the ambulance 15 what -- what were they doing? 16 L. George: They were looking around in 17 it. 18 Brown: Looking around in the 19 ambulance? 20 L. George: Yes." 21 Now, does that assist you in any way to 22 recall what you saw at that intersection that evening? 23 A: No. 24 Q: It doesn't? Okay. Thank you then. 25 Those are all the questions I have for you. Thank you
1161 very much for all your help. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 Is there anybody before Mr. McGilp? I 5 thought there was one (1) more cross-examiner -- you're 6 after? 7 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: I think we're 8 after. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Mr. 10 McGilp...? 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN McGILP: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. White. My name 14 is Ian McGilp and I represent the Ontario Provincial 15 Police Association and I have to tell you that I'm the 16 individual who told you I might keep you here thirty (30) 17 or forty (40) minutes. 18 I just want to let you know I'll do my 19 very best to make it shorter than that. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: The first question, sir, that I have 22 is, I don't believe Ms. Vella asked you, and I may be 23 wrong and you can correct me if I am, but I don't believe 24 Ms. Vella asked you if you were present in the former 25 Camp Ipperwash at the time of the takeover of the
1171 Barracks? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You weren't -- you weren't there? 4 Had -- had you visited the -- the former Army Base 5 between the period when it was first occupied and the -- 6 and the takeover of the Barracks? Did you visit during 7 that period of time? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: From time to time? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: With -- with your father that would 12 have been? 13 A: My auntie. 14 Q: Your aunties? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: I'm sorry, sir. I'm having a little 17 trouble hearing you. I don't know if -- can you pull 18 that microphone forward or does it -- you wouldn't have 19 to lean so far forward if it was closer to you. 20 Now, you described this morning, you said 21 this morning that you saw Mr. Cecil Bernard George 22 getting kicked by the police -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- and taken away, I believe? 25 A: Yeah.
1181 Q: I take it -- or I should ask the 2 question, was this before you got on the bus that you saw 3 that? 4 A: I think it might have been when I was 5 on or just before I was getting on the bus. 6 Q: Just prior bef -- just shortly before 7 you were getting on the bus; that was -- 8 A: Or while I was on. Because I could 9 see from, like, the front of the bus like where the 10 driver would sit and, like, the windshield, the front of 11 the bus -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- I could kind of see from there. 14 Q: When you first got on the bus was 15 Nicholus Cotrelle already on the bus or not? 16 A: I don't think so. No. 17 Q: Are you sure about that? 18 A: I'm pretty sure. 19 Q: So when you first got on the bus were 20 you sitting up in the driver's seat? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Were you -- were you sitting at the 23 front of the bus? 24 A: No, standing, probably. 25 Q: Standing up? And your dog was with
1191 you; right? And do you remember whether you were at the 2 front or the middle or the rear of the bus with the dog 3 when you first got on? 4 A: When I first got on, I probably, near 5 the front. 6 Q: Near the front? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And do you recall if you were -- can 9 you recall, now that you think of it, looking out the 10 window of the bus and seeing Cecil Bernard George getting 11 kicked by the police or was -- or do you think that was 12 actually before you got on the bus? 13 A: I'm not too sure. 14 Q: You're not too sure? 15 A: But I seen it. 16 Q: But you saw it. Now, you said also, 17 I believe, that you saw the confrontation out in the 18 Sandy Parking Lot in which the police and the -- and some 19 of the occupiers were clubbing one another. 20 And that you saw this involved -- you saw 21 this fighting going on and the question I have, is that 22 before you get on the bus or, again, was that after you 23 got on the bus? 24 A: Before. 25 Q: That was before? And when you first
1201 get on the bus and then is there -- how much time -- do 2 you have any idea how much time passed before Nick 3 Cotrelle got on the bus? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Would it have just been a very 6 short -- 7 A: Yeah. Maybe not even a minute. 8 Q: Less than a minute or something like 9 that? And when Nick gets on the bus, do you have any 10 conversation with him? 11 A: No. 12 Q: None at all? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Nick didn't say anything to you at 15 all? A: Not that I remember. 16 Q: What did Nick do when he first got on 17 the bus, as best as you can recall? 18 A: I think start it. 19 Q: Started the engine up? And did you 20 wonder at some -- did you wonder where the bus was going? 21 22 A: No. 23 Q: Where were you when Nick was starting 24 the bus? Can you recall whether you were sitting or 25 standing?
1211 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: And do you recall whether you were up 3 near the front of the bus where Nick was starting it up 4 or were you somewhat more to the rear of the bus? 5 A: I can't remember. 6 Q: You can't recall? But you're quite 7 sure that you -- Nick didn't tell you where we're going 8 in this bus or did -- he didn't say anything to you at 9 all? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Thank you. Now, I believe you told 12 us this morning that the shots started -- you heard 13 shots, the first shots -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- shortly after -- or could you tell 16 us -- show us on the map behind you please where 17 approximately the bus was when you heard the first shots? 18 A: Like -- 19 Q: Now that may be where you -- is that 20 where you drew the bus this morning? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah, I'm sorry. That's right I just 23 recalled that. And so the bus was travelling forward -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- as you hear the first shots.
1221 A: Yeah. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: I'm sorry, Ms. Vella was just 6 reminding me, Mr. White, that where you drew the bus was 7 to indicate that that was the position of the bus when 8 you first saw Dudley George on the ground? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: So, let us clarify then. Is X-2 on 11 the map the forward point that the bus reached? Well 12 perhaps I could just ask the question. 13 How far forward on East Parkway Drive did 14 the bus get as far as you can recall? 15 A: X-5. 16 Q: X-5 is where it got to? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And can you indicate for us 19 where you -- you think the bus was when you heard the 20 first shots? 21 A: Practically the same spot where I 22 seen Dudley laying. Where the bus is, where I marked 23 that on there. 24 Q: In other words -- 25 A: Right there.
1231 Q: -- in other words you heard the first 2 shots when the bus was at the position that you've 3 already indicated on the map, which is also the position 4 that the bus was when you first saw Dudley George? Is 5 that correct? 6 A: Let's just say, they started shooting 7 around here. 8 Q: Around there. Okay. Now, Mr. Warren 9 George was here on -- and gave a -- and gave evidence on 10 -- on December the 8th and -- and his testimony was that 11 he -- he drove the car that followed the bus out -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- and he says that the bus got up to 14 that second driveway there. The number that -- I think 15 it's marked 6842, that wide driveway on East Parkway 16 Drive. Do you see that on the left -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- of the map? And Mr. -- Mr. Warren 19 George said that the bus got up that far on East Parkway 20 Drive and that his car that he drove followed it and the 21 car stopped just short of that driveway. And Mr. George, 22 Warren George, told us that he stopped the car because 23 when he got to that point there was a police officer 24 standing directly in front of him, pointing a gun at him. 25 And that he swerved the car to the right
1241 to avoid getting shot and that as soon as he stopped the 2 car he says that he hit several police officers with his 3 car at that point. And that immediately he then jammed 4 it into reverse and either at the point that he stopped 5 or at the point that he was putting it in reverse, that 6 police officer started shooting at him and shot four (4) 7 or five (5) shots at the car. 8 Now, the question that I have to you and I 9 can also tell you that we've heard from a number of other 10 witnesses who have all said that the shots start when the 11 bus or the car or both start backing up. 12 You've told the Commissioner this morning 13 that the shots started as the bus is moving forward 14 through the sandy parking lot. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And I'm wondering if the evidence of 17 Mr. Warren George and -- and other witnesses refreshes 18 your memory at all as to whether the shots started when 19 the bus was going out towards East Parkway Drive or 20 whether, in fact, the shots only started after the bus 21 and the car started reversing? 22 A: I remember it -- the shots being 23 fired when it was going forward. 24 Q: You're quite sure that you heard 25 shots as it was going forward?
1251 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And is it possible that they could -- 3 you could have mistaken the sound of gunfire for batons 4 banging on the bus or would you be quite certain that you 5 could distinguish those two (2) sounds? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: You're not sure? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: So it's poss -- 10 A: I'm pretty sure that it started when 11 the bus was going forward. 12 Q: But it's possible, is that what 13 you're telling the Commissioner, it's possible that that 14 -- those sounds were actually the sounds of batons 15 hitting the bus? 16 A: It could, yeah. 17 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, I'm wondering, 18 can you help us by telling us, I'm not sure if I heard 19 you correctly this morning or not. 20 Did you say that when the shots start that 21 -- that -- well, prior to hearing the shots -- no, I'm 22 sorry, sir, I'm confusing myself and you and the 23 Commissioner. 24 When the bus is leaving the Park, are you 25 sitting, standing or laying down?
1261 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: You're not sure? 3 A: I'm pretty sure I was sitting in one 4 of the seats. 5 Q: And the seats are, from the picture - 6 - photograph we saw this morning, the seats are along the 7 passenger, not the driver side, but the opposite side of 8 the bus, is that correct? 9 A: I can't remember. 10 Q: That -- they're along one side of 11 the -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- or actually, it's the driver's 14 side, I think, isn't it? 15 A: I think so. 16 Q: But they're along one side in any 17 event, along one side of the bus and you think you were 18 sitting on one of those seats as the bus was leaving? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And do you recall whether, looking 21 forward from your seat, could you see the police officers 22 outside the fence? 23 A: No, I can't remember. 24 Q: You can't recall? 25 A: I don't know.
1271 Q: So is it possible you weren't 2 actually looking where the bus was going as it's exiting 3 the Park? 4 A: I -- I don't know. I can't remember. 5 Q: You're not sure. Do you recall if 6 you wondered where the bus was going? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You knew there was a confrontation 9 out there? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the bus is now driving right out 12 into the midst of it, isn't it? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And it -- did you know that that's 15 what -- what the bus was doing, that it was driving into 16 the middle of that confrontation? 17 A: Yeah, obviously. 18 Q: Yes. And were you concerned about 19 that? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: From -- 22 A: I can't remember. 23 Q: I mean, from a personal safety point 24 of view were you concerned about what might happen to 25 you?
1281 A: I don't know. 2 Q: You don't recall thinking one way or 3 the other about that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: I'm sorry, sir, could you just answer 6 that? 7 A: I don't remember what I was thinking 8 at the time. 9 Q: What -- what you were thinking at the 10 time. And you can't recall whether you were sitting or - 11 - or you think you were sitting, is that what you said, 12 as the bus -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- exits the Park? Now when you 15 hear the first shots, what did you do? 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: Do you recall whether you ducked? I 18 mean that would be a logical thing for a person to do 19 when he hears gun shots, wouldn't it? 20 A: I just said I can't remember. 21 Q: You can't recall whether you sat or 22 stood or ducked? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Thank you. Now you mentioned the -- 25 that at some point on the trip of the bus or the travel
1291 of the bus, you blocked the rear window, the lower rear 2 window -- the lower window in the rear door of the bus, 3 with the laundry basket. Do you recall that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And, could you indicate, sir, where 6 the bus was approximately when that was going on? Do you 7 recall? 8 A: It was like around this area 9 somewhere. 10 Q: Sort of half way in between where -- 11 where the bus is drawn on the map and the forward point. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And you -- why did you put the 14 laundry basket there, in the rear window of the bus? 15 A: To stop them from climbing in. 16 Q: To stop the police from climbing in 17 the bus? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And at that time you were at the back 20 of the bus and I think you said you were on your knees? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yes. And are the shots continuing at 23 that point in time? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: As you're looking out the rear
1301 window, before you put the laundry basket there or as 2 you're putting the laundry basket there, do you see 3 Warren George's car coming out from the Park? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You never saw -- 6 A: I wasn't aware that it -- never -- 7 till after. I wasn't aware that it entered -- or exited 8 the park til after. 9 Q: Until after September the 6th or -- 10 A: Like a few hours after the incident. 11 Q: After Dudley had been shot? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: It was after the confrontation was 14 all over that you learned that Warren George's car had 15 come out of the -- out of the Park? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: So you never saw that car at all 18 during the travel of the -- your travel on the bus? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Thank you. You'll see I'm flipping 21 over a bunch of pages and notes which means we both get 22 out of here sooner. 23 Now, I think you said that you got on the 24 bus after the confrontation in the sandy parking lot had 25 started. I think you also told Ms. Vella this morning
1311 that you did not see any twenty (20) litre gas cans on 2 the bus that Marlin Simon told us he had put on the bus, 3 but you didn't see them; do I have that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. And you said this morning that 6 you can't recall whether there was anyone else on the bus 7 when you got on; is that right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Do you remember in your SIU -- in 10 your interview with the SIU telling the SIU investigators 11 that Robert Isaac was on the bus when you got on? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Perhaps I can refresh your memory 14 with that and it may be that it doesn't refresh your 15 memory. And if not, then you can -- if that's so then 16 you can tell us. 17 For the benefit of counsel this is -- I 18 keep calling you Mr. George and I apologize, it's Mr. 19 White's statement to the SIU on October the 14th of '95 20 and I'm referring to page 3 and also for the benefit of 21 Counsel, it's Document Number 100-22-21. And on page 3 22 your -- you say the following: 23 "And then I went in the bus and I -- I 24 put Nigger on the bus and I got in and 25 then the -- and then when they started
1321 it up and things like -- then Robert 2 went back outside and then I got in and 3 he went to chase them off and then they 4 start shooting at the bus and they hit 5 my cousin in the side of his stomach." 6 And that interview was on October the 14th 7 relatively shortly after September the 6th. Does that in 8 any way refresh your memory about seeing Robert Isaac on 9 the bus when you first got on? 10 A: No. 11 Q: So, your evidence today is you can't 12 recall whether he was on the bus or not? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Thank you. Do you know Robert 15 Isaac's brothers Ed or Sam Isaac? 16 A: I know of them but I don't know them. 17 Q: You know of them. But you would know 18 them to see? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yes. Marlin Simon when he was here 21 also mentioned a third Isaac or a fourth Isaac brother 22 called Skid. S-K-I-D. Do you have any acquaintance with 23 -- there's Robert and Ed and Sam Isaac; have you ever 24 heard of or do you know Skid Isaac? No. 25 Now, Mr. White, I anticipate that we're
1331 going to hear evidence from a police officer that he was 2 watching -- it was his function that night to watch 3 people inside the Park. And that he saw the bus leaving 4 the Park and that as it got to the gate two (2) people 5 got on the bus. 6 And so his evidence we anticipate will be 7 that there were three (3) people on that bus. One was 8 the driver because he sees the bus approaching the gate 9 and then he sees two (2) more people get on for a total 10 of three (3). 11 Does that assist you at all in -- do -- do 12 you know who that would have been that he saw getting on 13 the bus? 14 A: Nobody. Nobody got on the bus. 15 Q: Nobody got on the bus? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And was there anybody that came up to 18 the bus and spoke to Nick Cotrelle or you as the bus 19 exited the Park such that the constable would have 20 thought they got on the bus? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You don't recall that at all? Now, 23 Mr. Robert Isaac in his statement to the SIU stated that 24 his brother -- that his brother jumped on the bus. 25 Does that help you at all?
1341 A: No. 2 Q: You don't remember either Ed or Sam 3 Isaac getting on the bus at any point? 4 A: Nobody else got on the bus that I 5 know of or seen. 6 Q: I thought you said this morning, sir, 7 that you couldn't recall if there was anyone else on the 8 bus. 9 A: Just me and Ugga (phonetic) and 10 nobody else. 11 Q: And Ugga is Nick Cotrelle? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes. As the bus was exiting the 14 Park, sir, could you see what the police were doing? 15 A: Standing -- 16 Q: Pardon me? 17 A: I seen a bunch of people outside. 18 Q: A bunch of police outside. 19 A: And they're like fighting and stuff. 20 Q: The fight was going on as the bus was 21 exiting the Park? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. Your evidence is different 24 than Mr. Warren George's I take it. Well you've -- I 25 guess you've already told us that -- yes, I'm sorry, I'll
1351 withdraw that question. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. IAN MCGILP: I'm sorry, sir, I'm 6 reminded that I should advise Counsel of the document 7 number for the Robert Isaac's statement that I referred 8 to a few moments ago. And that's Robert Isaac's 9 statement of October the 14th, '95, and the number is 10 1002221. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2221 is the 12 one (1) you're looking at I think. It must be another 13 number. 14 MR. IAN MCGILP: Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm 15 sorry. I'm sorry. 16 Yes, the number is 1002479. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR IAN MCGILP: 19 Q: I apologize, Mr. White. 20 Now, I have one (1) more question for you, 21 sir. We anticipate that we're going to hear evidence 22 from several police officers, that they either saw or 23 heard gunfire coming from the bus that night, as it 24 travelled out on East Parkway Drive. 25 Is it possible that while you were lying
1361 down on the bus, or on your knees rather, at the back of 2 the bus, is it possible that someone shot a gun from that 3 bus? 4 A: No. 5 Q: How can you be sure of that? 6 A: Because I would have known. 7 Q: How would you have known, if you 8 were -- 9 A: I would have heard them talking, or 10 communicating in some way. 11 Q: But let me suggest to you that while 12 you were down on your hands and knees, blocking the rear 13 window of the bus -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- or while you're -- while you're 16 concerned with protecting your dog, or while you're 17 keeping your head down to avoid bullets that are flying, 18 is it not possible that someone fired a gun from that 19 bus? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And the only way you could say that 22 with certainty, I take it, is that if you had for 23 example, if you had Nick Cotrelle in your sight at all 24 times? 25 If you saw him every minute you were on
1371 the bus, then you could tell the Commissioner that he 2 didn't fire a weapon? 3 A: Well, when he got shot, they would 4 have asked him -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a minute, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just a 8 minute. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a minute, Mr. 10 White. I think that that -- there's a -- the assumption 11 is unfair in that question, with all respect to My 12 Colleague. He's suggesting the only way that it could be 13 known that there was no gun in the bus, is if he saw Mr. 14 Cotrelle the whole time. 15 But if that gun was shot, I think it's 16 reasonable to assume that the person in the bus would 17 have heard that, for example. I don't think it's a fair 18 assumption. 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: Mr. Commissioner, there 20 were gunshots going off all around the bus. Whether the 21 person -- I don't agree with Ms. Vella's suggestion that 22 a person down on his hands and knees at the back of the 23 bus, could tell whether a particular gunshot came from 24 the bus or outside the bus, by the sound of it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you
1381 asked him if he thought it was possible for a gun to have 2 been fired from the bus, and he already said, no, he 3 didn't think it was. 4 MR. IAN MCGILP: Yes, he did, sir. But I 5 think I'm entitled to question him further on that. 6 However, I think I've done that, and those are all my 7 questions. 8 Thank you, Mr. White. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 very much. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: 13 Q: Mr. White, I'm Bill Hourigan, I'm one 14 (1) of the lawyers acting for former Premier Mike Harris. 15 I have just a few questions I wanted to touch base with 16 you on and get some clarification. 17 You testified about tearing down signs 18 earlier, and when you were doing that, did any of the 19 adult occupiers notice that you were doing that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. Were you ever told by any adult 22 occupiers of the Park to stop doing that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You testified about breaking into the 25 Park store. How many people broke into the store at that
1391 time? 2 A: It was just me. 3 Q: Just you, by yourself? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: I see. And you disabled the alarm 6 did you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Who did that? 9 A: My cousin. 10 Q: Which cousin is that? 11 A: Dave. 12 Q: Dave? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: So where was Dave? 15 A: He was by the fire. 16 Q: By the fire? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And where was the alarm? 19 A: In the basement. 20 Q: Basement of...? 21 A: The store. 22 Q: All right. So, your cousin was in 23 the store then to disable the alarm? 24 A: After, because when the alarm went 25 off I went to go get him to disable it.
1401 Q: Okay. So, you broke in yourself -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- and your cousin followed? Anybody 4 else? 5 A: No, not that I can remember. 6 Q: So, as far as you're concerned, 7 there's just the two (2) of you in the store at that 8 point? 9 A: I think so, yeah. 10 Q: And you testified you didn't take 11 anything out of the store, correct? 12 A: Yeah. Well, maybe a popped beach 13 toy. 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: A popped beach toy. 16 Q: You popped a beach toy? 17 A: A popped beach toy. 18 Q: Yes. Anything else? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did your cousin, Dave, take 21 anything else out of the store? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you notice anybody over the 24 course of that evening take anything out of the store? 25 A: No.
1411 Q: You also testified about shining 2 mirrors in the eyes of police officers; do you recall 3 that? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: Did you also shine mirrors in the 6 eyes of members of the media who were there? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Why did you do that? 9 A: I don't know, to be irritable. 10 Q: To be irritable? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: To whom? 13 A: I don't know, to everybody out there. 14 Q: Well, certainly to the media, who you 15 were shining at, correct? 16 A: And the cops, yeah. 17 Q: And the -- and the police officers. 18 And you -- you did it to the police officers to -- to 19 push them away; is that -- get them out of the area, is 20 that fair? 21 A: I guess. 22 Q: The same would hold for the media as 23 well? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Now, you were asked some questions
1421 about your time on the school bus. At the time you were 2 on the bus and the bus was going forward and it was going 3 through the gate, what was the purpose of doing that? 4 A: I wouldn't know. Probab -- 5 Q: You had no idea? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Can you -- can you look at your SIU 8 statement? Just the first tab? I direct your attention to 9 page 4 and about a third of the way down the page, opposite 10 your name, L. George: 11 "We went -- we crashed over -- crashed 12 the dumpster out of the way and then we 13 tried to chase the cops off with the 14 bus." 15 Does that refresh your recollection of the 16 purpose of driving the bus out the gate? 17 A: No -- all right -- wait, could you 18 repeat the question? 19 Q: Well, I've put to you what you said -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- and -- and I'm asking you, does that 22 refresh your recollection of what the purpose was of driving 23 through the gate with the bus? 24 A: To go try help Slippery, I think. 25 Q: To try to help Slippery? Okay, and --
1431 and how were you going to do that? 2 A: Possibly get up as close as we can to 3 him and probably bring him on the bus. 4 Q: I see. And did you drive towards 5 Slippery? 6 A: I think so. 7 Q: Well, did the bus head towards Slippery? 8 A: I think so. 9 Q: How close did you get to him? 10 A: Not too close because they were taking 11 him away. 12 Q: I see. So, that was the purpose 13 A: That I know of, yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Not to chase away the cops? 15 A: I think, yeah. It was probably that 16 too, yeah. 17 Q: So you -- the purpose was to try to get 18 as close to Slippery as you could and to chase away the 19 police officers; is that fair? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you have any discussion with Mr. 24 Cotrelle? 25 A: No.
1441 Q: All right. During the time period when 2 your dog was out front of the gate, at any point did you 3 hear any police officer say words to the effect of, Call off 4 your dog? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. Those are my questions. 7 Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any examination 9 -- no. Any re-examination from -- 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, that completes the 11 examination. Thank you, Mr. White. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. You 13 might give us an update of where we are, Mr. Millar. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, where we are is, we 15 -- the same spot we were before lunch. We don't have a 16 witness for this afternoon, nor tomorrow, so what I suggest, 17 Commissioner, is that we will start Wednesday morning with 18 Mr. Cousins, followed by Mr. Gerald George on Wednesday. 19 And Mr. Gerald George will continue on Thursday followed by 20 Mr. Nicholas Cotrelle. 21 And I suggest perhaps, Commissioner, that 22 we're scheduled to start at nine o'clock on Wednesday, but 23 perhaps we could start at 9:30. I understand some people 24 are going to be going back to Toronto and that might make 25 it a little easier coming back on Wednesday.
1451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That makes a 2 lot of sense. Excuse, me, that makes sense. I think I'm 3 going to go back to Toronto and come back up on Wednesday 4 morning. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll start 7 on Wednesday at 9:30. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9:30. Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that -- is 10 that okay with everybody? We don't have a choice, so -- so, 11 we adjourn now and we reconvene Wednesday morning at 9:30. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 14 much. Thank you very much for -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. White. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- coming and 17 giving us your evidence. Thank you very much. 18 19 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 22 adjourned until Wednesday, January 12th at 9:30 a.m. 23 24 --- Upon adjourning at 2:40 p.m. 25
1461 Certified Correct 2 3 4 5 6 _____________________________ 7 Wendy Warnock 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25