11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 9th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 24 Michelle Pong ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Ian Smith ) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) 12 13 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 18 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 19 Trevor Hinnegan ) 20 21 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 22 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 23 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 8 Robyn Trask ) (np) 9 10 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 11 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 12 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 13 Julian Roy ) (np) 14 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 15 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 16 17 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 18 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 19 20 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 21 Matthew Horner ) 22 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 3 Craig Mills ) (np) 4 Megan Mackey ) (np) 5 Erin Tully ) 6 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 7 8 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 9 Anna Perschy ) 10 Melissa Panjer ) 11 Adam Goodman ) (np) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 Opening Comments 9 5 6 ROBERT WILLIAM RUNCIMAN, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 15 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 203 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-986 Mr. Robert Runciman's Curriculum 4 Vitae. 16 5 P-987 Diagram of floor plan of Premier's 6 Office, Premier's Boardroom, Council 7 Chamber, EA's office, reception, hallway 8 and washroom; marked by witness Mr. 9 Robert Runciman, January 09/'06. 131 10 P-988 Document Number 1001152. News Release 11 from MSGCS Re. Incident at Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park, Sept. 07/'95. 166 13 P-989 Document Number 1011599. Draft Sept. 14 07/'95. MAG/MSGCS Minister's Positioning 15 and Questions and Answers, MSGCS 167 16 P-990 Document Number 12000073 Memorandum 17 to PC Caucus Members from Marnie Corbold. 18 Attaching OPP Press Release, Sept. 19 07/'95. 170 20 P-991 Document Number 2001370. Letter from 21 Robert Runciman to Herb Gray, Solicitor 22 General of Canada, Sept. 07/'95. 173 23 P-992 Document number 1000986. Transcript: 24 Conference call with First Nation Leaders 25 and Robert Runciman (no date). 177
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-993 Document number 1001231. Letter 4 from RoseAnne Archibald, Chairperson, 5 Mushkegowuk Council, to Robert 6 Runciman, Sept. 08/'95. 183 7 P-994 Document Number 1001565. News Release 8 from MSGCS Re. Runciman meets with 9 Ipperwash area leaders, residents, 10 Sept. 12/'95 184 11 P-995 Document Number 3001141. Letter from 12 Kelvin McAlpine, President, Ontario 13 Association of Chiefs of Police, to 14 Robert Runciman, Sept. 13/'95. 191 15 P-996 Document Number 2000457. Fax from Ron 16 Fox to Robert Runciman Re. Ipperwash 17 Update, Sept. 19/'95. 195 18 P-997 Document Number 2000484. Letter to 19 Marcel Beaubien from Robert Runciman, 20 March 29/'96 199 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 10:35 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have a few 7 words. I want to say good morning to everybody and 8 welcome everybody back. I hope everybody had a Happy New 9 Year. We all deserved a break and I hope everybody 10 enjoyed it as much as I did, and we're now ready to start 11 with our next phase. 12 And before we do, I just have a few 13 comments that I'd like to make. Very short. 14 We've come a long way since these hearings 15 began. We've had a hundred and fifty-six (156) hearing 16 days by my count and we've heard testimony from ninety- 17 five (95) witnesses. Many have asked how much longer is 18 it going to take? 19 I'd like to spend just a couple of minutes 20 revisiting a theme that I've stressed on a number of 21 occasions and that is the balancing that has to occur 22 between what may be considered competing objectives of 23 thoroughness on the one-hand and efficiency on the other. 24 And I'm going to begin with the goal of thoroughness. 25 Through this investigation and these
101 hearings we're endeavouring to bring to light all the 2 facts about the events surrounding the death of Dudley 3 George. While the events in question occurred ten (10) 4 years ago, the current government was of the view that 5 questions remained unanswered and that the best way to 6 answer them was through a public inquiry. 7 A public inquiry takes time, often more 8 that can be accurately predicted at the outset. Only 9 after documents are read, interviews are conducted, and 10 all the evidence is gathered does the breadth and depth 11 of the many issues requiring investigation become 12 apparent. 13 As Commissioner it's my obligation to 14 ensure that no stone is left unturned. At the outset 15 it's also difficult to estimate the number of people 16 whose recollection may contribute meaningfully to the 17 investigation. 18 A public inquiry's a unique opportunity 19 because of its independence and its statutory authority. 20 As such it can often bring to light important facts and 21 perspectives that were not previously known. As the 22 Inquiry unfolds, therefore, additional witnesses are 23 often identified. These cannot be ignored if we are to 24 meet our commitment of thoroughness. 25 In the case of this Inquiry we have the
111 benefit of seventeen (17) different and legitimate 2 perspectives, as represented by the parties withstanding. 3 Much has been learned so far but there are still many 4 witnesses to hear from to ensure that the story is 5 complete. And I'm committed to completing these hearings 6 with the same attention to thoroughness that I believe we 7 have demonstrated to-date. 8 I indicated some time ago my expectations 9 that the hearings might have been concluded by now. For 10 the reasons I've discussed above I now estimate that we 11 will conclude some time this spring. 12 I would now like to turn to the topic of 13 efficiency. As Commissioner, I also have the obligation 14 of managing the entire inquiry process. This 15 responsibility manifests itself early in the process with 16 the preparation of rules of procedure to guide and define 17 the parameters of these proceedings. 18 Other examples of the Commission's efforts 19 to conduct an efficient process include circulating 20 summaries of anticipated evidence, leading evidence with 21 detailed examinations in-chief, and working with parties' 22 counsel to ensure an orderly, thoroughly, and fair 23 process. 24 Now, parties to the Inquiry, as 25 represented by their counsel, contribute to this effort
121 as well. It's my view that we all share the 2 responsibility for an efficient process and I have two 3 (2) specific requests to Counsel in this regard. 4 First, if issues have been dealt with by 5 Commission Counsel in their direct examination or in some 6 detail by another party during their cross-examination 7 it's not necessary nor helpful to this investigation to 8 have the same ground reviewed again. 9 Second, I'm asking each of you to keep in 10 mind the basis on which your party was granted standing 11 when preparing your cross-examination and to focus your 12 examination on your party's interests. We granted 13 standing to seventeen (17) parties to ensure that all 14 necessary perspectives were canvassed, but they do not 15 need to be and should not be canvassed repeatedly. 16 Each party will have amply opportunity to 17 make comprehensive closing submissions, either written or 18 oral or both at the conclusion of the hearings. I'm, 19 therefore, asking you to be mindful of questions that 20 need to be asked in cross-examination and of those 21 matters that should more appropriately be dealt with in 22 closing submissions. 23 Furthermore, in my view, each party has a 24 continuing responsibility to carefully consider the 25 necessity of their counsel being present in Kimball Hall
131 from the beginning to the end of each hearing day and 2 week. 3 I appreciate that the twists and turns 4 that these hearings take sometimes make it challenging 5 for the parties and their counsel to anticipate the 6 direction the evidence will take and therefore the extent 7 to which a witness' testimony may be of direct or 8 substantial interest to their party. 9 Our webcast and the daily postings of 10 transcripts are an excellent means to follow the 11 proceedings. And the outlines of anticipated evidence 12 prepared by Commission counsel are intended to assist 13 counsel and to anticipate relevant evidence or issues 14 requiring their direct participation. 15 I appreciate, however, that even by 16 monitoring the webcast and referring to the outlines of 17 anticipated evidence, unexpected or unanticipated 18 situations may arise. 19 In conclusion, I want to reiterate my view 20 that the very real concern, for both thoroughness and 21 efficiency, requires constant vigilance and effort by all 22 of us as we are engaged in a process that is for the most 23 part publicly funded. 24 I have commended counsels' cooperation in 25 the past and, once again, I want to acknowledge the
141 significant efforts that have been and continue to be 2 made by most counsel in addressing these important 3 concerns. 4 I am committed to completing a thorough 5 and fair investigation from beginning to end. But I also 6 want to reiterate my concern that thoroughness cannot be 7 achieved at any cost. Both thoroughness and efficiency 8 must continue to guide us in our efforts to maintain the 9 integrity of this process. Thank you. 10 Now, I think we're ready for our first 11 witness. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 13 Commissioner. The Commission calls as its next witness 14 Mr. Robert Runciman. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 19 Runciman. 20 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, do you prefer to 22 swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 23 THE WITNESS: I'll swear on the Bible. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Would 25 you take it in your right hand please. And would you
151 give us your name in full for the record please. 2 THE WITNESS: Robert William Runciman. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 4 5 ROBERT WILLIAM RUNCIMAN, Sworn 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning, Mr. Runciman. I understand you have a bad back. 9 If you need to stand up, just do so. We understand. 10 There are many of us here who have bad backs. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 13 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. Runciman. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: In the green binder -- the green 17 folder that's in front of you, there's a CV that was 18 prepared and provided to us. It's the second or third 19 document down, the next document, sir. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And is that a copy of your curriculum 22 vitae? 23 A: I believe it is, yes. 24 Q: And if we could mark that as the next 25 exhibit, Commissioner, please.
161 THE REGISTRAR: P-986, Your Honour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-986: Mr. Robert Runciman's 5 Curriculum Vitae. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And Mr. Runciman, I understand that 9 you were first elected as a Member of the Legislative 10 Assembly of Ontario for Leeds-Grenville in 1981? 11 A: It was just Leeds at the time. 12 Q: Leeds at the time? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And it was in 1981? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And you have been re-elected in every 17 election since then? 18 A: I have been. 19 Q: And this is your -- 2006 will be your 20 twenty-fifth (25th) year as a Member of the Provincial 21 Parliament? 22 A: March the 19th. 23 Q: And at some point the constituency 24 changed from Leeds to Leeds-Grenville? 25 A: That's true. It was two (2) steps
171 actually. I think in '87 or '90 -- I think, '87 it 2 became Leeds and Grenville but the actual Grenville part 3 of the riding was incorporated, I believe, in '95. 4 Q: And then as I understand it, prior to 5 becoming a Member of the Provincial Parliament, you were 6 an elected municipal councillor in Brockville; is that 7 correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And how many years were you in -- 10 A: A little over eight (8). 11 Q: Eight (8) years? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: As well you were the owner of the 14 Westport and Rideau Valley Mirror? 15 A: I was. 16 Q: And how long were you the owner of 17 that? 18 A: About four (4) years. 19 Q: Okay. You were, as well, a reporter 20 for the Brockville Recorder and Times and for the Ottawa 21 Journal? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And over how many years, 24 approximately, were you a reporter, sir? 25 A: About, again, three (3) or four (4)
181 years, something in that range. 2 Q: And you were as well the production 3 manager of Nitrochem Chemical Company? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And how long did you hold that 6 position? 7 A: Well, I was with the company for 8 about eighteen (18) years. 9 Q: Eighteen (18) years? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And that was prior to your political 12 career or -- 13 A: In terms of my municipal career, I 14 was an employee of Nitrochem. 15 Q: At the same time? 16 A: At the same time, yeah. 17 Q: And at one point in time, you were 18 the president of the International Chemical Workers' 19 Union? 20 A: Part of it. It was a local of the 21 International Chemical Workers', yes, that's right. 22 Q: The local in the Brockville area? 23 A: That's right, yeah. 24 Q: And as a member of the Provincial 25 Parliament, you have held a number of positions both in
191 opposition and in government, but among them where you 2 were the Minister of Government Services and then 3 Consumer and Commercial relations -- Minister of Consumer 4 and Commercial Relations in the Government headed by Mr. 5 Frank Miller in the spring of 1985? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then while in opposition, among 8 the positions you held, was as critic for the Solicitor 9 General and Ministry of the Solicitor General and the 10 Ministry of Financial Institutions from November '89 to 11 July 1990? 12 A: I can't -- 13 Q: I've taken that -- 14 A: -- recall the timeframe, but yes. 15 Q: I've taken that, actually, off P-986. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: And from 19 -- October 1990 to March 18 1992, you were the critic, Consumer and Commercial 19 relations and Financial Institutions, then March 1992 to 20 April 1995, you were the critic for the Solicitor General 21 -- Ministry of the Solicitor General and Correctional 22 Services; is that correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And then on June 26th, 1995, you 25 became the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional
201 Services? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you held that position until June 4 1999? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you then became Minister of 7 Public Safety and Security, for the period April 2002 to 8 October 2003; is that correct? 9 A: That is. 10 Q: And the Ministry of Public Safety and 11 Security encompasses the old -- the Ministry of Solicitor 12 General and with Correctional Services; is that correct? 13 A: Essentially the same Ministry with a 14 -- with a different title. 15 Q: And as I understand it, when one is 16 in opposition, the critics are appointed by the leader of 17 the party; is that correct? 18 A: It is. 19 Q: And as a critic in opposition, what 20 is the role of a critic appointed as the official critic 21 for the opposition? 22 A: Well, it's essentially to -- to keep 23 the Minister of the day, in that particular portfolio, on 24 his or her toes. 25 I would critique the -- the policies that
211 were being announced by the Minister of the day involved 2 in the legislation that was tabled by that particular 3 Ministry; meeting with stakeholders of the Ministry as 4 well who would express their concerns with respect to 5 what was being done or not being done that impacted their 6 interests so that you could, perhaps, represent some of 7 their views and concerns in the Legislature or in 8 committee. 9 Raising issues in Question Period and in 10 debate in the Legislature. Also raising those kinds of 11 issues and making enquiries on policy matters during 12 estimates, briefings, those kinds of opportunities that - 13 - that came about as a critic. 14 Q: Okay. And as the critic of a 15 particular portfolio, you would take the lead on the 16 particular portfolio that you were the -- had been 17 appointed critic of? 18 A: Usually, but not always. If an issue 19 was of -- of great public import, as determined by the -- 20 essentially by the leader's office, on occasion the 21 leader, would -- would pursue those issues in the 22 Legislature. 23 Q: But generally -- 24 A: Generally, yes, I -- the Critic 25 would.
221 Q: -- deal with those issues? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And I -- presently, you're the Critic 4 for the Ministry of the Attorney General? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now, could we take you -- in the 7 black binder at -- in front of you, at Tab 5 there's a 8 copy of Exhibit P-922. And this is a copy of The Common 9 Sense Revolution as taken from the website of the 10 Progressive Conservative Party. 11 Do you recognize that document, sir? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And the -- Exhibit P-922, The Common 14 Sense Revolution, as I understand it formed the basis of 15 the Conservative Party's campaign for election in 1995? 16 A: This was our platform document. 17 Q: And what role did you have with 18 respect to putting together Exhibit P-922? 19 A: Really no role in terms of the 20 document itself. I -- I guess it -- you could say that I 21 had a role along with Charles Harnick. As the Attorney 22 General Critic in opposition we toured the Province and 23 had public meetings in a variety of communities gaining 24 input with respect to justice issues and -- and produced 25 a document called, New Directions --
231 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- which provided recommendations and 3 input into the development of this document. 4 Q: Into the development? And that's 5 with respect to -- from -- with respect from the 6 Solicitor General's -- from your perspective, I take it, 7 with respect to policing issues? 8 A: Policing, corrections, the whole 9 range of issues. They -- 10 Q: And -- 11 A: -- primarily policing. 12 Q: Primarily policing? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And would you agree with me that The 15 Common Sense Revolution does not address Aboriginal 16 issues or concerns? 17 A: I don't believe it does. I'm not 18 aware of it. 19 Q: And the decision as to what the 20 platform would contain would be a decision made by whom? 21 A: The -- the campaign team and the 22 people that comprised the campaign team. 23 Q: And that would be under the direction 24 of the leader of the party at the time? 25 A: Yes.
241 Q: And at the time Mr. Harris was the 2 leader of the party? 3 A: He was. 4 Q: And at Tab 6 there's a document; it's 5 Exhibit P-924, and it's called, Bringing Common Sense to 6 Community Development. 7 And back in 1995 were you familiar with 8 this document, sir? 9 A: No, I was not. 10 Q: So, you had -- you played no role in 11 its preparation or its dissemination? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 Q: And at Tab 7 there's a document, A 14 Voice for the North, Report of the Northern -- Mike 15 Harris Northern Focus Tour. 16 And did -- were you familiar with this -- 17 it's Exhibit P-925. Were you familiar with this document 18 in 1995, sir? 19 A: I wouldn't say I was familiar with 20 it. It -- it would have -- I assumed, been presented and 21 circulated to -- to Caucus at the time, but I note that 22 there are issues here related to the Justice portfolio so 23 that that would have been brought to my attention. 24 Q: But do you remember -- or do you -- 25 A: I don't remember it, no.
251 Q: Do you recall having any input into 2 the development of this document, Exhibit P-925? 3 A: No, I don't. I don't believe we had 4 any input into it other than perhaps there may have been 5 some reference to -- to the New Directions -- documents 6 that Harnick and I produced. 7 Q: Is it -- as I understand it -- and 8 this you may or may not -- I don't know if you've had the 9 opportunity to look at either of these two (2) documents 10 in preparation for attending here today. Did you have 11 that opportunity? 12 A: Yes, I looked at this briefly. 13 Q: And with respect to Exhibit P-924, 14 Bringing Common Sense to Community Development, at Tab 6, 15 it appears that one (1) of the Party's goals, or one (1) 16 of the goals that -- that are set out in this particular 17 document, is to give non-Native input into land claims 18 issues. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: Is that fair? 21 A: I think that's fair. 22 Q: And were you part of any discussions 23 with -- 24 A: No, I wasn't, no. 25 Q: -- respect -- you weren't?
261 A: No. 2 Q: And then there was -- another theme 3 appears to be giving non-Native input into hunting and 4 fishing issues with respect to Aboriginal issues. Did -- 5 are you aware of that from this document? 6 A: I wouldn't -- you know, as a normal 7 practice, would not be involved in those kinds of 8 discussions. They weren't my -- didn't fall within my 9 portfolio and weren't issues that would have arisen in my 10 own constituency, so I would not be particularly 11 involved. 12 Q: Okay. And when you say, 13 "particularly involved," do you recall being involved at 14 all or -- 15 A: No, I don't, no. 16 Q: You don't? 17 A: I don't recall being involved. 18 Q: And when you became the Solicitor 19 General and Minister of Correctional Services on June 20 26th, 1995, what was your understanding of the role of 21 the Solicitor General? 22 A: Well, just confining it to Solicitor 23 General, not Correctional Services? 24 Q: We'll do Solicitor General first 25 and...
271 A: Essentially, oversight with respect 2 to policing in terms of policy development, 3 responsibility for the -- the Police Act and ensuring 4 that it was adhered to, appointment of Members to Police 5 Services Boards, policy development, of course, in terms 6 of things like chase protocols, those kinds of issues 7 that would come before a Minister. 8 There was the oversight with respect to 9 the Coroner's Office, the Centre for Forensic Sciences 10 and the public safety responsibilities as well, for the 11 Fire Marshall's office. 12 Q: And on the Correctional Services 13 side? 14 A: Essentially, oversight in policy 15 development with respect to the correctional system in 16 the Province of Ontario, the probation and parole 17 offices; the -- the Parole Board, the appointments to the 18 Parole Board; the mandate of the Parole Board and its 19 policy development with respect to the Parole Board and 20 how they approach their responsibilities. 21 Q: And what was -- when you became the 22 Solicitor General on June 26th, 1995, what was your 23 understanding of the relationship between you as the 24 Minister and the Ontario Provincial Police? 25 A: I think it was a pretty clear
281 understanding that you didn't, in any way, shape or form, 2 interfere with -- with operational decision making on the 3 part of the OPP or any police service for that matter. 4 You established policy in consultation 5 with police and a variety of stakeholders who -- who 6 would have an interest in the -- in the subject of 7 policing in the Province, and ensure that those policies 8 were adhered to. 9 And -- and again, developing initiatives; 10 there might be, for example, I mentioned the police chase 11 protocol as an example. 12 Dealing with issues like taser guns, for 13 example, allowing police services to use taser guns in 14 experimental basis, that broadening it; pepper spray, 15 when that came into use in Ontario, those kinds of 16 initiatives, you would deal with them as -- as a 17 Minister. 18 Q: And what was the basis of your 19 understanding, in particular with respect to the role of 20 the Solicitor General with respect to the OPP in 21 operational matters? 22 A: Well, certainly not to provide any 23 advice with respect to operational matters. I -- I don't 24 recall ever being, you know, apprised, in a detailed way, 25 of operations of the police.
291 There were occasions when I might be given 2 a heads-up for -- on the -- and I think this only 3 happened on a couple of occasions, where there was a 4 significant police effort, joint force effort, with 5 respect to drugs or something of that nature. 6 Usually, I would be given notice that it 7 was going to occur within an hour or something like that, 8 so that at least I wouldn't be caught off guard by -- by 9 the media or by others with respect to this was 10 happening. And the Solicitor General was not aware that 11 something of that significant nature was occurring. 12 In terms of being given advance notice and 13 being given the details of, you know, investigations or 14 operational matters, I dealt with policing issues; that 15 was not something that I asked for or expected to be 16 informed of. 17 Q: And I -- I didn't make my question 18 clear, but when you became the Solicitor General in 19 -- 19 June 1995, you've told me that you had an understanding 20 with respect to the relationship between the OPP and -- 21 and the Minister and the qu -- what I'm -- what I would 22 like to know is, the day you became Minister, what was 23 the basis of your understanding? 24 A: Well, there were incidents in the -- 25 certainly I think I had an understanding that, for some
301 period of time certainly in opposition, and I think of at 2 least one (1) prominent case where the Solicitor General 3 where they had, under the Liberal Government, the 4 Peterson Government, had gone into a police station in 5 the very early hours of the morning because a -- a 6 neighbour or a friend of -- a friend had been arrested, 7 and protest it and try to instruct the police officer on 8 duty to release the individual 9 And she became a bit of a -- a cause celeb 10 and -- and ultimately resulted in the resignation of the 11 Minister for trying to direct police in the way they -- 12 Q: And that was -- 13 A: -- conducted their -- their business. 14 Q: Was that a time you were the Critic 15 Solicitor General -- 16 A: I was, yes. 17 Q: -- Critic for the Solicitor General? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And after you became Solicitor 20 General and -- excuse me. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Before I go on, with respect to the 25 correctional services side of your portfolio, can you
311 tell us a little bit about what was your understanding 2 your responsibilities for it back in 1995 when you became 3 the Minister? 4 A: Well, management of the -- of the 5 system, I think that we had -- we had concerns which I 6 think were expressed in the New Directions document 7 related to the operations of the Parole Board which I 8 think became a priority for us, one of the early 9 priorities, with respect to corrections, and -- and 10 having the Parole Board adopt a new -- a new mandate in 11 terms of how they operated. 12 And really ultimately as time progressed, 13 I didn't -- I quite frankly as -- as a critic didn't have 14 an extensive understanding of -- of the system and the 15 costs associated with the system and the age of the 16 system; a very old and very expensive correction system 17 in the Province of Ontario. 18 So, at relatively the earlier stage we -- 19 based on briefings, we started to begin a process to look 20 at renewing the infrastructure for the correctional 21 system in Ontario. 22 But, essentially those were my, you know, 23 understandings of it and -- and certainly didn't have 24 extensive understanding of how the system worked, the 25 probation and parole system, and certainly with respect
321 to the Chief Coroner's office or the Centre of Forensic 2 Science, very limited knowledge and certainly was an 3 extensive learning process for me. 4 Q: And with respect to the learning 5 process, as I under it, after you became the Solicitor 6 General and the Minister of Correctional Services, you 7 did receive briefings with respect to issues in the 8 Ministry? 9 A: I'm -- I'm not sure when that 10 actually began. Probably -- probably the second or third 11 week into, you know, getting settled into the office and 12 getting to meet some of the key people in the Ministry. 13 And then we would set up a schedule of 14 briefings and it had to be done in conjunction with a 15 whole range of other things that were occurring in terms 16 of the government and the committees that I sat on, the 17 Cabinet meetings, and the early opportunities to start to 18 meet with -- with stakeholders as well. 19 Q: And you met with a number of 20 stakeholders over the summer of 1995? 21 A: I believe we started the process, now 22 how extensive it was I can't recall. 23 Q: And we'll come back to that in a 24 minute, but at Tab 1 of the book in front of you there's 25 a document, P-578, Ministerial Control and the Ontario
331 Provincial Police. 2 Do you recall being provided with this 3 document as part of your briefing, sir, back in 1995? 4 A: I think I was, yes. 5 Q: And how would you define -- you told 6 us about the difference between a policy that as the 7 Minister you were not to interfere with operational 8 issues. 9 How would you define the difference 10 between a policy matter and an operational issue? 11 A: Well, I think policy -- I always 12 primarily look at -- at the -- the legislation and the 13 regulations and the policy directives that flow out of 14 that and the protocols that were established over the 15 years. 16 And so for the most part I would look at - 17 - at policy as being something in writing, something that 18 people could refer to and could hopefully understand and 19 agree upon. 20 In terms of the operational decisions I 21 would -- I would think in terms of, you know, the -- the 22 numbers of personnel for example that would be assigned 23 to a given matter; the investigative techniques, the -- 24 you know the -- the approaches made by -- by the police 25 in terms of -- of their independence with respect to
341 making decisions related to their responsibilities; those 2 kinds of issues that, you know, you would -- you would 3 keep your nose out of. I certainly made every effort to 4 keep my nose out of them. 5 I think there were -- there were some 6 areas I guess that you could say that it was a little bit 7 blurred where I might express an observation or a view 8 which -- which sometimes might have an effect or -- or 9 might not. 10 One of the things that I continue to press 11 over my years as Solicitor General was the fact that I 12 felt police officers were spending too much time in their 13 cars. I felt they should be, especially policing in 14 smaller communities, they should be getting out of their 15 cars and walking a beat if you will and getting to -- to 16 know their communities and -- and the people in their 17 communities. 18 And at every opportunity when I met with 19 the Commissioner this was something that I would mention 20 to -- to him or -- or her, laterally. I'm not sure that 21 it had much impact though but it wasn't something that I 22 was saying, You do this and do that. 23 I was simply offering that as an 24 observation as someone who represented a riding with a 25 lot of smaller communities that -- yeah, where they
351 rarely saw a police officer on the street, if ever. 2 Q: And you -- 3 A: So, that's the sort of thing that I 4 would offer on occasion as a -- as an observation but 5 certainly not provide direction. 6 Q: And you indicated earlier with 7 respect to -- on policy development you gave an example, 8 Chief's protocols as being one (1) policy matter? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: What -- 11 A: We -- 12 Q: Can you give us some other examples? 13 A: We -- ultimately we -- we developed 14 standards, minimum standards, for -- for policing which 15 were implemented across the Province. 16 What, in effect, they did was tell any 17 police service that this is the minimum standard that you 18 have to provide in your community, whether you provide it 19 directly through your police service or purchase it from 20 an adjoining police service, but these are the standards, 21 the minimum standards that you have to meet; that sort of 22 thing that we would -- we would develop. 23 We certainly wouldn't do this in a -- in a 24 -- you know in isolation. It would have been done in -- 25 through extensive consultation with -- with the -- with
361 various stakeholders. 2 Q: And when you say, "minimum 3 standards," for example, you're referring to the number 4 of police officers in a -- serving community? Is that 5 what the standard -- I'm just trying to get a -- 6 A: Yeah, I don't -- I don't know. I 7 can't recall if they were, in terms of, you know, police 8 versus population. I don't -- I don't believe that was 9 there, but services like, you know, forensic services, 10 having holding cells, that sort of thing. 11 Q: And another example of a policy 12 matter -- would photo radar fall within a policy matter? 13 A: It would be a policy matter, but it 14 would, and did, fall under the Ministry of 15 Transportation, but certainly it -- it had policing 16 linkages. 17 Q: And so that photo radar was not a -- 18 an issue that your Ministry dealt with? 19 A: I -- the Ministry itself didn't deal 20 with it. I dealt with it because I was asked to by the 21 Premier's office in terms of the public explanation, I 22 guess, of the decision to cancel photo radar. 23 I was asked to -- to deliver the message 24 and deal with the -- the questions that surrounded that 25 decision.
371 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to Tab 2 1, the McChesney paper. 3 A: Tab 1? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: What paper? 6 Q: The -- it's the Ministerial control 7 and the Ontario Provincial Police. We've learned that it 8 was authored by a lawyer at the -- in the Government 9 service by the name of Ann McChesney. 10 Were you familiar with Ann McChesney? 11 A: Very much so. 12 Q: And she was a lawyer who worked in 13 your Ministry? 14 A: Seconded I -- from the Attorney 15 General. 16 Q: And at page 23... 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Actually, if I could take you first 19 to page 9, sir. 20 A: Page 9? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
381 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 2 document is Exhibit 578. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And it's Exhibit -- excuse me, thank 6 you, Commissioner. It's P-578. 7 The top of the page, the author writes: 8 "There is merit, however, in the view 9 that policy making is properly the 10 responsibility of the executive arm of 11 government, while operational decisions 12 pertaining to the enforcement of law or 13 those operational decisions that are 14 made in accordance with policy, should 15 be the responsibility of the police." 16 Do you agree with that, sir? 17 A: I'm sure that I do. 18 Q: And the -- at page 23, she sets out 19 on pages 23, 24 and 25, and going into 26, the 20 responsibility of the Minister with respect to -- the 21 Minister -- the Solicitor General with respect to 22 policing. 23 And back in 1995, when you became the 24 Solicitor General, do you agree with the statement of 25 ministerial responsibility set out on these pages?
391 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: And, for example, she indicates that 3 the Minister must be in a -- page 23, paragraph -- the 4 second bullet: 5 "The Minister must be aware of the 6 policy of the Ministry set out in 7 written form, for example, Manual of 8 Police Administration and Police 9 Orders." 10 Do you agree with that? 11 A: In a -- in a general sense, I do. I 12 don't think that, you know, in terms of being familiar 13 with every -- every line of the Policy Manual is perhaps 14 not practical. 15 Q: But that's something you would deal 16 with through your own staff -- 17 A: That's right -- 18 Q: -- as well, is that -- 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: -- not correct? And the -- at the 21 last bullet on page 23: 22 "The Minister should ensure that the 23 resources of the OPP are in balance, in 24 that all areas under the police mandate 25 receive some attention, for example,
401 the police should not deploy all of 2 their resources on morality issues to 3 the detriment of other Criminal Code 4 enforcement." 5 Do you agree with that? 6 A: Again, in a general way I do. I 7 would personally be loathe to -- to suggest to police, 8 the OPP, that -- that they are not -- that they're not 9 focussing appropriately in terms of resources in -- in 10 one area or another. 11 I -- I would certainly express, perhaps, a 12 concern that may have been brought to my attention and -- 13 and listened to their other view of it. I -- I don't 14 recall ever -- ever suggesting that they were out of 15 balance and that -- and I'm not sure that, you know, in 16 most respects I would have been aware as a Minister if 17 they were focussing 'X' number of people in -- in the 18 child pornography area for example, versus -- versus 19 another area. 20 I know that over a time we did establish a 21 number of special units which I think were -- were driven 22 by, you know, public concerns which were raised with the 23 OPP and as a result those units were established. 24 Q: And what I -- just so you understand, 25 this is a general statement of a minister's
411 responsibility and not -- any of these may or may not 2 have come up during your tenure, but for our purposes 3 which I'm just trying to understand, that you as 4 Solicitor General, having at the time, back in 1995, 5 having agreed with this, I'm just taking you to some of 6 the individual ones so that if you wanted to add anything 7 more. 8 For example, on page 24 about the units, 9 the author writes, at the first bullet: 10 "The Minister may direct it that the 11 OPP deploy part of its resources in an 12 area that is of special concern to the 13 Government. 14 For example, the Minister may direct 15 that a drug branch be established for 16 the purposes of controlling drug 17 importers." 18 And that's simply as an example. 19 And I think that you said that there were 20 certain units established that you had discussed with the 21 OPP? 22 A: At some point during the -- our 23 tenure, yes. The anti-gaming unit for example is an 24 example. 25 Q: And was -- did you direct -- do you
421 recall, did you direct the OPP to establish that or did 2 it more come out of discussions with the OPP? 3 A: I think it came out at discussions 4 with the OPP and I think there were -- there were 5 concerns about the extent of illegal gaming that was 6 going on in the Province. I think there was some -- 7 there were some press as well, with respect to -- to what 8 was happening in the illegal gaming industry in the 9 Province. 10 Q: Then the next bullet is: 11 "The Minister may direct that the OPP 12 abolish a particular branch or branch 13 activity, for example, the ride 14 program." 15 Do you agree that as Minister -- I'm not 16 saying that you did that, but that was among the powers 17 that you had? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then the second bullet from the 20 bottom: "The Minister may direct that 21 the police service investigate an 22 offence against the government or in an 23 act of apparent corruption." 24 Did you -- do you agree with that 25 statement, sir?
431 A: I agree with it I guess, in the sense 2 that again, this is something that I never contemplated 3 utilizing. 4 Q: So, you didn't do it -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- but you don't disagree that the 7 Minister might do that in the appropriate circumstance? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the next item: 10 "The Minister may bring to the 11 attention of the Commissioner, the 12 apparent unlawful actions of any 13 individual, agency, that comes to his 14 or her attention. 15 For example, the residents of a 16 particular nursing home are being 17 mistreated." 18 Do you agree with that, sir? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then at the top of page 25, the 21 first bullet: 22 "The Minister may ask to be informed on 23 the general activities of the OPP as 24 they pertain to any investigation or 25 activity. The Minister should make
441 such requests through normal channels, 2 that is through the Deputy Minister, to 3 the Commissioner, to the investigating 4 officer. To do otherwise might be seen 5 as political interference in the 6 operations of the police. 7 The Commissioner may refuse to make a 8 full report if he believes it should -- 9 would contain information disclosed or 10 which would be contrary to the public 11 interest. See page 12." 12 Do you agree with that statement, sir? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then the next: 15 "The Minister should not direct that an 16 individual agency, et cetera, be 17 charged. Only the investigating officer 18 who is aware of all the relevant facts 19 can decide when he or she has 20 sufficient evidence to swear to an 21 information. An individual officer 22 cannot be expected to swear to 23 something he or she does not believe 24 in." 25 Do you agree with that --
451 A: I do. 2 Q: -- statement? And the last bullet on 3 page 25: 4 "The Minister should not direct that an 5 individual officer is acting -- who is 6 acting lawfully and following 7 government policy be removed from a 8 particular investigation." 9 Do you agree with that, sir? 10 A: I do. 11 Q: The top of page 26: 12 "The Minister should not direct the 13 Commissioner to terminate a specific 14 investigation, however, the Minister 15 may withhold funding or other support 16 requested specifically for that 17 investigation. The Minister must be 18 prepared to answer in the Legislature 19 for such actions or to see another 20 agency, for example, the RCMP -- RCMP 21 assume the investigation." 22 Do you agree with that statement? 23 A: Yes. Again, it's -- it would be -- 24 it would be a challenging thing to do, to say the least. 25 Q: Pardon me?
461 A: I think it would be a challenging 2 thing to do if you had -- if you utilized that -- that 3 tool to -- to terminate an investigation. 4 Q: And did that ever happen -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- during your tenure? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And lastly: 9 "In support of funding the Minister 10 must be satisfied that the province is 11 being efficiently policed; that the OPP 12 receives efficient and proper 13 maintenance, equipment and 14 administration, and that it apprise -- 15 provides adequate cooperation to other 16 departments." 17 Do you agree with that? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And if I could take you to page -- 20 back to page 12. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And there are four (4) areas that the 25 author raises with respect to the -- the Solicitor
471 General and the police. 2 First, there set out on page 11: The 3 right to know, the right to direct policy matters, the 4 right to direct operational matters and how can 5 ministerial authority be more clearly defined? 6 And on page 12 under, "Right to Know," on 7 the top of page 13, sir, the author writes: 8 "The rationale for the -- this right to 9 know..." 10 Let me go back to page 13: 11 "Can the Minister demand information? 12 The Minister could insist on being kept 13 informed of any matter within the 14 Ministry, including an operational or a 15 policy matter. The rationale for this 16 right to know is that the Minister is 17 ultimately accountable, in the 18 Legislature, for the efficiency and 19 effectiveness of law enforcement in the 20 Province. 21 He or she must, in the normal course, 22 be able to answer questions on matters 23 of operational policies. Exceptions 24 would be questions concerning ongoing 25 police investigations where public
481 answers could jeopardize the safety of 2 an individual or hamper the conduct of 3 an investigation or proceeding." 4 Do you agree with that statement, sir? 5 A: Hmm hmm. I do. 6 Q: And at page 14 under the heading, 7 "The Right to Direct Policy Matters," the author writes: 8 "As a person responsible to the 9 Legislature for law enforcement in the 10 province, the Minister should have 11 responsibility for approving policy for 12 the Ministry. Accordingly, it could be 13 argued that the Solicitor General must 14 have the power to give direction on 15 matters of policy. This includes 16 operational policy, for example, 17 guidelines with respect to pursuits by 18 police vehicles or the administration 19 of polygraph tests to victims of sexual 20 assault. Matters of policy, including 21 operational policy, the Solicitor 22 General should have full power, both to 23 express his or her views, and to 24 provide direction to the Commissioner. 25 This power flows from the Solicitor
491 General's ultimate accountability with 2 respect to the OPP." 3 And she refers to Section 17(2) of the 4 Police Services Act. And do you agree with that, sir? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at page 16... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Under the general heading, as well, 11 The Right to Direct Policy Matters," at the bottom of 12 page 16: 13 "It could be argued that the Solicitor 14 General's accountability for OPP policy 15 must include the authority to create or 16 change policy, even where, as commonly 17 happens, the policy issue arise out of 18 an urgent operational incident." 19 Do you agree with that statement? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: An example is the Bastien Inquest. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I'm not sure I agree with that --
501 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- to be quite frank. 3 Q: Thank you. And then at the bottom of 4 page 17, "The right to direct operational matters:" 5 "It is generally agreed that the 6 Minister should not intervene in 7 operational decisions made by OPP 8 Members when exercising their powers as 9 peace officers. The rationale for this 10 is that police are guided by statute 11 and case law, for example, the 12 Criminal Code specifies circumstances 13 in which an officer may arrest the 14 right to re-direct -- [colon]: the 15 right to redirect traffic is conferred 16 by the Highway Traffic Act. 17 This is not to say that the police have 18 no accountability with respect to 19 specific operational decisions. 20 As noted above, however, the Minister's 21 accountability for operational matters 22 may be to require information on what 23 was or will be done, rather than, as in 24 the policy area, to control or direct 25 the actions of the police.
511 Reporting relationships should also -- 2 always -- also be respected in order to 3 avoid any perception of political 4 interference (as opposed to the 5 Minister's right to be fully informed 6 in all matters under his or her 7 jurisdiction). 8 Accordingly, it would be advisable for 9 the Minister to direct his or her 10 requests for information to the 11 Commissioner." 12 Do you agree with that statement? 13 A: Yeah, on the assumption that -- that 14 in terms of the reporting procedures that that not -- 15 would not normally be directly to the Commissioner; it 16 would be through the deputy. 17 Q: So that the communication, generally, 18 with the OPP, when you were Solicitor General, what was 19 the -- on these types of issues, what was the normal 20 chain of communication, sir? 21 A: It was normally through the deputy or 22 through someone in the deputy's office. The OPP liaison, 23 Inspector Taylor, would quite often be, you know, dealing 24 with our office, and I'm assuming then through the 25 deputy, and then through that process to the
521 Commissioner. 2 Q: But did -- with respect to these 3 issues, did you give in -- discuss policy issues or other 4 issues relating to the OPP directly with Inspector Taylor 5 and ask her to pass it to the Commissioner? Do you -- 6 A: I don't think so. I think we had, 7 you know, extensive contact with Inspector Taylor, but, 8 you know, in terms of asking her, personally, to pass 9 something on, I don't -- I don't believe that that would 10 have happened, but -- 11 Q: Okay. And I just -- help me a little 12 bit when you say, Had extensive dealings with Inspector 13 Taylor, what are you referring to? 14 A: I think over the years, I'm not 15 talking about the first eight (8) weeks -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- we barely knew -- knew the 18 individual. I think over the -- over the four (4) years 19 that -- the initial four (4) years that I was in the 20 Ministry, certainly, it was a -- a good working 21 relationship and it was primarily a relationship where 22 she was advising us of -- of a variety of issues and 23 concerns. 24 So it wasn't -- Inspector Taylor was never 25 used as sort of a -- a conduit for direction to the
531 police. That was never -- never something that occurred. 2 Q: Okay. And at Tab 2 of the black book 3 there's a document. It's Exhibit P-579. It's a 4 document, "Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional 5 Services, roles and relationships between the Minister 6 and Deputy Minister and the Ontario Provincial Police." 7 And we don't know -- we don't have a date, 8 but it's, we believe, some time after 1998. 9 Were you familiar with this document, sir? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, the -- after you became 15 Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services I 16 understand that Kathryn Hunt became your executive 17 assistant? 18 A: Within a couple of weeks she did, 19 yes. 20 Q: And was that a decision you made or 21 how did that come about, sir? 22 A: It was a decision I made. I 23 originally offered the job to someone who had been 24 working with me for some period of time but she didn't 25 feel that she was qualified to take on those
541 responsibilities and recommended someone else whom we 2 both knew quite well from her time as a researcher for 3 the opposition party. And -- and I offered her the job 4 and she accepted. 5 Q: And had you known Ms. Hunt prior to 6 offering her the position? 7 A: I'd known her for a period of years. 8 Q: And had you worked with her when she 9 was in the Research Department of the Party? 10 A: Not directly. I -- I knew of her 11 work and I knew that she was very respected so I -- I had 12 no reservations. Anyone who had worked with her was very 13 complimentary. 14 Q: And I understand that in your own 15 office you had, as well, Alexis Mantell as a 16 communications assistant? 17 A: She was my executive assistant in 18 Opposition and she had a background in media and opted to 19 be communications assistant. 20 Q: Okay. And Mr. Terry Simzer was your 21 Legislative Assist -- Assistant including appointments 22 and policy advice? 23 A: I don't believe he had any policy 24 responsibilities. He -- on a short-term basis because we 25 were still staffing up the office, he was responsible for
551 appointments to police services boards and Parole Board, 2 and was a policing advisor, which is essentially at that 3 stage, very early stage, really establishing contacts -- 4 contacts with stakeholders and starting to arrange 5 meetings with the stakeholders and so those very early 6 approaches to stakeholders. 7 Q: And Ms. Lynne Clark was your 8 secretary and an assistant as well? 9 A: Yes, she came with me from 10 Opposition. 11 Q: And Ms. Dianne Tominac-DaSilva? She 12 was part of -- 13 A: She came on a week or two (2) or a 14 couple of weeks into the -- she had been again working in 15 PC Services. 16 Q: And Dr. Elaine Todres became the 17 Deputy Solicitor General and Deputy Minister of 18 Correctional Services; is that correct? 19 A: Yes, I think she was appointed at -- 20 about the same time I was appointed. 21 Q: And who makes the decision with 22 respect to, in this case, Ms. Todres becoming your Deputy 23 Solicitor General? 24 A: The Secretary of Cabinet makes 25 recommendations to the Premier who ultimately makes the
561 decision. 2 Q: And did you play any part in the 3 decision making with respect to Ms. Todres becoming your 4 deputy? 5 A: No, not at all. 6 Q: And then Ron -- Barbara Taylor was an 7 assistant in Ms. Todres' office? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And can you tell us what her role 10 was? Was it policing as you just told us bef -- I think 11 a few minutes ago? 12 A: No, as I understood it she was the 13 liaison between Orillia and the -- and the Deputy's 14 office and a Deputy at some point. I'm not sure when 15 this job was established, but it was there when we 16 arrived. I -- I gather that her role was really to -- to 17 keep the Deputy in -- in close contact with the -- with 18 the -- with OPP Orillia and vice versa. 19 Q: And when you became the Minister, Ron 20 Fox, Inspector Ron Fox, was a Special Advisor in the 21 Ministry? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Is that correct? 24 A: He was. 25 Q: And what was your understanding in
571 the summer of 1995 of the role of Inspector Fox? 2 A: He was there, essentially working on 3 the establishment and expansion of First Nations 4 policing, and working with First Nations policing 5 organizations to -- to improve their operations and to 6 grow their operations. Some were, you know, still in a - 7 - an evolutionary phase. 8 And -- and there were negotiations with 9 respect to the extension of the First Nations policing as 10 well, which he was very much playing a key role in. 11 Q: And what was you understanding of Mr. 12 Fox's position with the -- the Solicitor General's 13 department when you -- over the summer of 1995? 14 A: Simply that he was there working out 15 of the Deputy's office to work on these tripartite 16 agreements with First Nations. 17 I -- I didn't appreciate any other -- I 18 was aware -- not aware of any other, you know, 19 responsibilities that he might have had. 20 Q: Did you know how he got to be a 21 member of the Solicitor General's -- the Deputy's office? 22 A: No. I wasn't aware of the history. 23 Q: Or did you become aware of the 24 history of the position of First Nations -- 25 A: I might have -- I might have been,
581 but I can't recall at this point in time. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And in the summer -- when you became 6 the -- the Minister, did you have under -- understanding 7 of Mr. Fox -- Inspector Fox's background? 8 A: When I became a Minister, no. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: No, I didn't know him at all. 11 Q: And over the summer of 1995, did you 12 learn about his background? 13 A: His -- his background prior to -- 14 Q: Becoming -- 15 A: -- becoming -- there's a vague 16 recollection that I was advised of something about his 17 background, but I can't recall details. 18 Q: And did Mr. Fox provide a briefing to 19 you with respect to the First Nations policing? 20 A: I believe he did. When that 21 occurred, though, I can be specific. 22 We had, you know, the first -- and I'm 23 focussing on the first eight (8) weeks on the job, we 24 probably had about six (6) weeks where we were conducting 25 briefing sessions and they had -- obviously had to be
591 timed with respect to other responsibilities. 2 So, how -- how extensive those briefings 3 were during that period of time, I -- you know, I really 4 can't comment. 5 I know that we were certainly trying every 6 available opportunity to -- to become familiar with the - 7 - with the operations in the Ministry and the personnel 8 in the Ministry, and also start meeting stakeholders. 9 Q: And did you understand, in the summer 10 of 1995, that Ron Fox was an inspector at the Ontario 11 Provincial Police? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And Scott Patrick, did you -- do you 14 -- did you meet Scott Patrick or do you recall meeting 15 Scott Patrick in the summer of 1995? 16 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall meeting 17 Scott Patrick until some time later. Now, I may have met 18 him but it -- it's obviously if I did, it didn't stick 19 with me, because I don't -- I don't recall that at all. 20 Q: And at some point he, in 1996, he 21 replaced Ron Fox as the First Nations policing advisor? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you meet with him when he 24 took that role -- position? 25 A: Oh yes.
601 Q: Yes? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 92, 4 please, sir. It's towards the back. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Oh, I've got the wrong number, excuse 9 me. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Perhaps we could give Mr. Runciman 14 Exhibit P-984, please? And that's the exhibit drawn by 15 Dr. Elaine Todres with respect to the Minister -- the 16 Solic -- the Ministry of the Solicitor General. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 91 I 21 think. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's right. Tab 91. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
611 Q: And this was a drawing done by Ms. 2 Todres for the setup with respect to the Ministry back in 3 1995 and the -- to focus on the different parts of the 4 Ministry with respect to the Solicitor General's branch. 5 And the Minister is shown with the 6 Minister's office, a chief of staff, a legislative 7 person, a communications person and a constituency policy 8 unit or persons. 9 Do you agree with that, sir, that that was 10 basically how your office was set up back in 1995? 11 A: I don't believe I had a constituency 12 person. Other than that -- '95, I guess -- perhaps 13 they're considering -- assumes there was a constituency 14 person. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: I think he was wearing quite a number 17 of hats at that point, legislative policing advisor and 18 appointments, and ultimately at some point over the 19 course of the fall we had an assistant whose sole 20 responsibility was the legislative responsibility. 21 And then we hired an individual to be a 22 policing advisor, and we also had someone who was solely 23 on appointments. So the office grew from the first few 24 weeks. 25 Q: Okay. And the Deputy Minister as
621 drawn by Dr. Todres was responsible or had attached to 2 her office, an issues unit, the legal services branch, a 3 communications branch and an investigation unit with 4 respect to human resources. The -- as she put it, an 5 executive assistant, on the left had side, Aboriginal 6 policy advisors, policy advisors in corrections and the 7 OPP. 8 And was that your understanding of how her 9 office was set up in 1995? 10 A: I think so. 11 Q: And I'm going to come back to the 12 issues unit in -- in a moment, but what was your 13 understanding in the summer of 1995 of the role of the 14 issues unit, sir? 15 A: The issues unit was essentially 16 established during the NDP Government. It was actually 17 an issue that I raised in the Legislature dealing with 18 the Bell Cairn Training Centre for correctional officers, 19 and there was an issue that the Minister was unaware of 20 that had been festering in the Ministry for some time. 21 And I was actually called as an opposition 22 critic by a senior bureaucrat who was very concerned that 23 there was an allegation of sexual assault and nothing was 24 being done internally. 25 And it was -- created quite a furor and
631 ultimately, I think, the Deputy Minister was -- was 2 transferred. I think because of that, they felt that 3 because of the size of the Ministry, essentially the 4 largest Ministry in Government in terms of personnel and 5 institutions, and a number of issues generated on a daily 6 basis to try and you know, preclude something like that 7 happening in the future they -- they established this 8 unit to -- to review all of the policies that were coming 9 in on a daily basis. 10 They would pull them all together, have an 11 early morning meeting, review them and -- and priorize 12 them and hopefully be able to address them and -- and 13 keep on top of the issues. 14 So, essentially it was that one (1) 15 incident that the prompted it and certainly when we come 16 into a new office in '95, we -- we retained it and it's 17 in the way it was structured when we -- when we came into 18 office. 19 Q: When you came into the office? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the -- Exhibit P-984 actually 22 covers the whole Ministry. The -- Dr. Todres indicated 23 there was an Assistant Deputy Minister for Municipal 24 Policing, the Chief Coroner, an Assistant Deputy Minister 25 with respect to emergency services, an assistant deputy
641 Minister for Corrections, the Commissioner of the OPP and 2 an assistant deputy Minister, who was the Chief 3 Administrative Officer. 4 And is that your recollection of how the 5 Ministry was set up back in the summer of 1995? 6 A: I think, essentially. I don't recall 7 the ADM, Chief Administrative Officer, but other than 8 that I think it's -- it's accurate. 9 Q: And Ms. -- Dr. Todres testified that 10 there was approximately sixty thousand (60,000) members 11 of civil servants who were part of the Ministry of the 12 Solicitor General and Correctional services. 13 Is that your understanding? 14 A: I don't recall the specific number. 15 It was by far the largest Ministry in government, yeah. 16 Q: And had a large budget of $1.2 17 billion? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Perhaps that would be an appropriate 20 time for the morning break, sir? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 22 thank you very much. We'll take a break now. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25
651 --- Upon recessing at 11:47 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 12:05 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed, please be seated. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Mr. Runciman, when you became 9 Solicitor General in 1995, what were your initial 10 priorities? 11 A: Well, initially, the corrections side 12 of the portfolio was one of the initial priorities; to 13 revamp the Parole Board. 14 We had a lot of concern with respect to 15 some of the decisions that had been taken, and one of 16 them that I had been very involved with is the murder of 17 Constable Joe McDonald in Sudbury by an individual who 18 was on release from the Ontario Parole Board. 19 So we had determined that that would be a 20 priority. So that was certainly, on the -- on the 21 corrections side of the portfolio, a significant 22 priority. 23 Very early on, you know, in consultation 24 with police stakeholders and others, we felt that changes 25 were required to the Police Services Act.
661 So I think, in terms of a -- a specific 2 project, the revamping of the Parole Board was perhaps 3 number 1, and extensive consultations with the policing 4 community and other stakeholders with respect to changes 5 in that direction and where we should be going and how we 6 should be going about it. 7 So I think it -- essentially that would be 8 in terms of early days. 9 Q: In effect, a review of the Police 10 Services Act? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And after your appointment, as you 13 told us before the break, you met with a number of 14 stakeholders. 15 Can you just give us an example of the 16 types of people you met with? 17 A: Well, we would have -- there was -- 18 any new Minister who was appointed, I think there was a 19 rush of -- of stakeholders in an attempt to meet with him 20 or her. 21 And you try to accommodate them all as 22 best you can and -- and certainly, based on 23 recommendations from the -- the staff within the Ministry 24 as well, in terms of how that should be proceeded with. 25 And we would meet with the -- with the Association of
671 Chiefs of Police of Ontario, for example. 2 We would meet with the Fire Chief's 3 Association, meet with the -- the Police Associations as 4 well, the OPPA, the -- the Police Association of Ontario; 5 those kinds of groups and organizations that we -- on the 6 municipal side we would meet with the -- the Board of the 7 Police Services Boards Executive to talk about their 8 issues and their concerns. You know, essentially, that's 9 the kind of group that we would meet with. 10 Q: And in the summer of 1995, did you 11 meet with Commissioner O'Grady? 12 A: I believe we met on at least two (2) 13 occasions. I recall one was a briefing session where he 14 was in attendance with a number of other officials. And 15 one occasion we had a -- a private meeting where, you 16 know, he -- he wasn't in uniform; we went out for lunch 17 and just sort of a getting to know each other kind of 18 exercise, talking about a number of things. 19 My recollection of that's -- in terms of 20 our meetings in the early days my -- that is the meeting 21 that I have some recollection of and -- and his interest 22 in -- in seeing some -- some changes in the reporting 23 relationship that he felt should be considered. 24 Q: And when you say -- do you recall the 25 changes in the reporting relationship that you're
681 referring to? 2 A: He -- he was a -- a strong believer 3 in the Commissioner reporting directly to the Solicitor 4 General. He felt the Commissioner, apparently this had 5 been the case, that in -- in the past, at what point in 6 time it changed I'm not sure, but the -- in the early 7 days, in any event, the -- the Commissioner of the OPP 8 had been at Deputy Minister rank and reported directly to 9 the Minister of the day, and he felt that that was a -- a 10 relationship that should be restored. 11 Q: Okay. And did you -- do you recall 12 having any discussion with Mr. O'Grady as to the 13 separation between the Solicitor General and the 14 Commissioner of the OPP, with respect to operational 15 matters? 16 A: I don't think so. 17 Q: And Mr. O'Grady testified that he met 18 with you during the course of the summer to brief you on 19 the structures, duties, and activities of the OPP and to 20 try to bring them up to speed on any critical issues. 21 Do you agree with that? 22 A: I think that would have been the 23 session where he was in uniform and there were a number 24 of other -- I assume the Deputy was there and members of 25 my staff and other bureaucrats.
691 Q: And he also testified that he had a 2 meeting with you on July 4th, 1995 that indicated this 3 was probably the first time he met with you. 4 Do you recall a meeting in early -- 5 A: That would have been the first week 6 in the office and I wouldn't have been staffed up. I, 7 you know, it's possible we -- we did meet, but I, you 8 know, certainly we knew each other. We had -- we had 9 said hello to each other, if you will, when I was -- when 10 I was a critic and we'd met on a couple of occasions, but 11 had -- had never entered into a discussion. 12 Q: And -- but you wouldn't disagree with 13 his -- his evidence that he'd met with you on July -- 14 July the 4th, 1995? 15 A: I wouldn't disagree with it. I -- we 16 probably would have just sat down in my office with the 17 Deputy in sort of an informal way because I -- I don't 18 think it would have been a formal structured meeting. 19 Q: No, he didn't say that. 20 A: No. 21 Q: And then Mr. O'Grady testified that 22 he met with you on July 19th in the afternoon with 23 respect to Regional Headquarter sites. 24 Do you recall that? 25 A: No, I don't recall the specifics.
701 Q: And then he testified that on August 2 28th, 1995 he had lunch with you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And at that time he apprised -- his 5 evidence was that he apprised you as to the general 6 approach the OPP takes with regard to issues, and he 7 indicated the issue he was referring to was the issues 8 arising in the Ipperwash area. 9 And his evidence was that the general 10 approach the OPP takes with regards to these issues, 11 which is to keep the peace, to negotiate and to receive 12 appropriate direction from the courts as to any occupied 13 land. 14 Do you recall that? 15 A: I don't, but if that's his 16 recollection, I accept it. I don't recall it 17 specifically. 18 Q: Okay. And at Tab 3 of the large book 19 in front of you, there's a copy of Exhibit P-472 and it's 20 a briefing note for the Interministerial Policy Forum, 21 November 26th, I believe it shows '91. 22 Prior to getting ready for your attendance 23 at the Inquiry and meeting with -- with respect to that, 24 were you familiar with this document, sir? 25 A: I don't believe so.
711 Q: And were you familiar with the policy 2 or the philosophy that's set out in this document? If 3 you might take a moment to read it. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Exhibit 5 Number 472? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, P-472. 7 THE WITNESS: Coming into the Ministry, 8 familiar with this? No. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And over the summer of 1995? 12 A: It may have been brought to my 13 attention, but I don't -- I don't recall that. 14 Q: And the position of the OPP: 15 "The approach of the OPP as set out 16 below: Seek a negotiated solution, 17 arrest for breach of peace where 18 appropriate if negotiation fails, and 19 release and removal from site. 20 3. If arrest for breach of peace 21 fails, to clear site after period of 22 time, arrest and charge appropriate." 23 And in the first paragraph, with respect 24 that the police would act on an injunction. 25 Did anybody -- do you recall discussing
721 that with anyone in your Ministry or with Mr. O'Grady? 2 A: I don't think so. I -- it may have 3 been referenced by -- by Katherine Hunt at some point, 4 following one of the meetings, Interministerial meeting. 5 Q: And did you receive any briefings 6 with respect to Section 35 of the Constitution and 7 Aboriginal Rights, when you became the Minister? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And did you have any understanding of 10 -- from before you became the Minister, of Section 35 of 11 the Constitution? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: And do you -- did you have any 14 discussions, prior to September the 5th, 1995, with the 15 Premier or his political staff, or with your own 16 political staff, or any other minister with respect to 17 how Aboriginal issues would be dealt with? 18 A: I don't believe so. 19 Q: And at Tab 4, there's a copy of 20 Exhibit P-683, it's Inquiry Document 1007239. And this 21 is the statement of political relationship, guidelines, 22 questions and answers; it's dated August 1992. 23 And five (5) pages from the back there's a 24 document, "Statement of Political Relationship," and it's 25 signed by the then Premier Bob Rae and the Honourable Bud
731 Wildman who was the Minister Responsible for Native 2 Affairs, and a number of First Nations organizations in 3 the Province, and it was signed on August the 6th, 1991. 4 Were you familiar with the Statement of 5 Political Relationship when you became the Minister? 6 A: No, I wasn't. 7 Q: And do you recall attending a meeting 8 early in the Government's mandate with the Chiefs of 9 Ontario? 10 A: No. I was told there was testimony 11 that I attended such a meeting, but I don't believe I 12 did. I think that was -- I do have a recollection of a 13 meeting, but I think it was, you know, somewhat into the 14 mandate and following the death of Mr. George. And I 15 recall it because it was rather tension-filled, I think, 16 is a fair way to describe it because of the -- of the 17 death. 18 And -- and I think that probably in the 19 circumstance it was described too that the Deputy 20 attended. But I did not attend and it would have been on 21 -- on the basis of recommendations from my own staff with 22 respect to -- to the issues that we were dealing with and 23 the priorities we were dealing with in the Ministry and 24 that the -- the Native Affairs Secretariat and the 25 Ministry of Natural Resources would have, you know,
741 primary interest with respect to -- to those issues. And 2 I think that may have been, well, why I did not attend. 3 I don't believe I attended that meeting. 4 Q: And the meeting that you had -- that 5 you do recall early in the mandate was after the -- Mr. 6 George's death? 7 A: I recall it because I think there was 8 some, you know, some concern because of the -- of the 9 death of Mr. George and the fact there was, you know -- 10 Q: Can you recall -- 11 A: -- questions surrounding the 12 circumstances. 13 Q: And can you tell us when that meeting 14 took place, Mr. Runciman? 15 A: No, I can't. It -- I -- I'm 16 assuming, and that's always dangerous to do, I'm assuming 17 it was within a year following -- within that -- the 18 September to September. 19 Q: And do you recall who attended the 20 meeting, sir? 21 A: I -- I'm sure that Mr. Harnick and I 22 attended. Whether Mr. Hodgson did or not, I can't 23 recall. 24 Q: And do you recall who attended from 25 the Chiefs of Ontario or other --
751 A: I think it was well represented. I - 2 - I think there was, you know, a significant number but I 3 can't recall the names. 4 Q: Do you recall, was there any 5 discussion at this -- the meeting you do recall as to the 6 Government's policies with respect to Aboriginal issues? 7 A: I'm sure there was. Again, I can't 8 recall specifics. 9 Q: And Ms. Todres, the evidence that 10 you're referring -- that you referred to earlier, Ms. 11 Todres testified that she attended a meeting with you and 12 Mr. Hodgson and possibly Mr. Vrancart, with the Chiefs of 13 Ontario and that the purpose was to be polite, but to 14 inform the Chiefs of Ontario that there would be a new 15 approach and a new policy and the current framework was 16 no longer in place with respect to Aboriginal issues. 17 Does that assist? 18 A: Well that wouldn't have been coming 19 from -- from the Ministry of the Solicitor General. It 20 would have, I assume, be something that would have flowed 21 from the Ministry of Natural Resources. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: And perhaps the Native Secretariat, 24 ONAS. 25 Q: And in -- do you recall being --
761 discussing this topic with Dr. Todres at any time -- 2 A: No, I do not. 3 Q: -- at an early part of the mandate? 4 A: No, not at all. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You'd agree with me that in terms of 9 the Ministry of the Solicitor General and the Ministry of 10 Correctional Services, that Aboriginal issues such as 11 Aboriginal policing, the number of Aboriginal individuals 12 in custody, was an issue within the Ministry? 13 Was it an issue within the Ministry? 14 A: It certainly was an issue. Whether 15 it was an issue within the Ministry, I'm not sure. I 16 know that certainly over the years it's -- it's been an 17 issue, but whether it specifically was a focus of the 18 Ministry of Corrections I -- I don't recall. 19 Q: But during the period that you were 20 Solicitor General, did you focus on Aboriginal issues 21 within your -- 22 A: In terms of the number of individuals 23 being incarcerated, I'm sure there was -- it was looked 24 at in terms of the -- of the costs of operating the 25 system and the -- and the concerns surrounding the
771 population, Native population. And -- but beyond that I 2 think that most of those kinds of issues, other than the 3 fact that we were the -- the innkeeper if you will, most 4 of those kinds of issues would be dealt with through -- 5 through ONAS. 6 In terms of the societal issues with 7 respect to why are so many Natives being incarcerated and 8 why are they taking up such a significant proportion of 9 the accommodation in the correction system, that short of 10 issue would be -- would be dealt with by another branch 11 of government. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Now that doesn't mean that we 14 wouldn't make that other branch of government aware of 15 our -- our issues, our concerns. 16 Q: And with respect to Aboriginal 17 policing and the work of First Nations policing being 18 done by Mr. Fox in the early part of your mandate and 19 then subsequently by Mr. Patrick, what was your position 20 as Minister with respect to First Nation policing? 21 A: Supportive. It think it -- as I 22 recall there was certainly an intention to -- to grow the 23 program and that there were some -- some weak spots and - 24 - and others that were working extremely well. And I 25 think that -- I think certainly the -- the intention was
781 one -- the goal was one that I supported. 2 Q: And was funding an issue with respect 3 to First Nation policing after the Government changed and 4 you became the Minister? 5 A: I don't recall it as an issue. We 6 were certainly reviewing all expenditures and so it was 7 unquestionably part of the review process, but the fact 8 that it was a -- a tripartite arrangement where funding 9 was flowing from the -- from the Federal Government as 10 well, I don't believe it was a significant concern. 11 Q: And Ron Fox testified that the 12 funding for First Nation policing was reduced after you 13 became the Minister or after the change of government. 14 Do you recall that, sir? 15 A: I don't recall the specifics. I know 16 that over the course of my initial tenure I believe that 17 we did expand the program. 18 Q: Okay. Over the course of -- 19 A: Over the four (4) years. 20 Q: Over the four (4) years? 21 A: Over the four (4) years, yes. 22 Q: Now, at Tab 10 of the book of 23 documents in front of you, there -- there's a document, 24 it's Exhibit P-303. It's a briefing note for Mr. Harnick 25 and it's the procedures for dealing with Aboriginal
791 emergencies. 2 And then at Tab 11, sir, there's a copy of 3 Exhibit P-498 which is Inquiry Document 1012232, and it's 4 the appendix to P-303; Guidelines for Responding to 5 Aboriginal Emergencies, Blockades. 6 And in the summer of 1995 were you 7 provided with a copy of Exhibit P-303, the July 10th 8 briefing note or the appendix which is Exhibit P-498? 9 A: I don't believe so. 10 Q: And were you given any briefing by 11 anyone with respect to the purpose and role of the 12 Interministerial Committee for Aboriginal Emergencies? 13 A: I don't believe so. I -- I think at 14 some point after the occupation Kathryn Hunt was asked to 15 -- to attend a meeting. I think she gave me a -- a brief 16 summary of -- of the role of the Committee. 17 Q: But prior to -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- September the 4th? 20 A: No, I don't believe so. 21 Q: And so, did you become aware that 22 your ministry was represented on the Interministerial 23 Committee only after the occupation of the Park took 24 place? 25 A: That's my recollection. It may have
801 been part of one of the extensive briefings in the 2 Ministry, but certainly didn't stand out at that point 3 and time. 4 Q: And we spoke briefly, earlier, about 5 issue notes. And at Tab 9 of the book in front of you, 6 there's a copy of Exhibit P-560. It's Inquiry Document 7 200 -- excuse me, 2000988. 8 And do you recall receiving a copy of this 9 issue note dated July 10, 1995? 10 A: No, I don't recall. It -- it may 11 have been brought to my attention, but I can't recall. 12 Q: And do you recall at the -- early on 13 in the summer of 1995 or over the summer of 1995, how the 14 issue notes -- how the issues unit provided you with 15 issue notes? 16 Did you receive raw issue notes? How did 17 it come to you? Or did they come to you? 18 A: Yes, some of them did. Not all of 19 them. I think there was a meeting early in the morning 20 with the issues unit and I think some folks from -- from 21 the deputy's office. 22 And at one -- when we had a legislative 23 assistant, which I'm not sure exactly when we retained 24 one, it was probably into August, a legislative attendant 25 would sit in on the meeting and the communications
811 assistant would sit in on the meeting and, on occasion, 2 my executive assistant. 3 And then they would sort of screen the 4 list I guess and prioritize it and -- and bring to my 5 attention what they thought were the important issues of 6 the day. 7 Q: So that the -- over the summer of 8 1995, did this -- do you recall that the issues unit met, 9 as you've just described, in the morning? 10 And did you then have a meeting with 11 someone who then brought you up to speed with respect to 12 the issues identified by them? 13 A: I'm assuming that it occurred. I 14 don't recall the specifics, but usually, especially on a 15 Cabinet day, I would come into the office a little early 16 and be brought up to date on -- on the issues and 17 accompanied to the Cabinet meeting by my communications 18 assistant, because usually upon entry to Cabinet there's 19 a large group of media. 20 And so you have to walk through that hoard 21 to -- to get into the Cabinet. And if they are, you 22 know, issues that could be raised by a member of the 23 media, you're hopefully going to be informed before 24 you're asked. 25 So that -- that was the process as -- as a
821 rule. 2 Q: Can you tell us what you knew, if 3 anything, about Camp Ipperwash and it's history, prior to 4 the occupation of the Park on September 4th, 1995? 5 A: I really had no knowledge of the Camp 6 or its history, prior to the occupation. 7 Q: And there are a number of issue notes 8 that appear in the document in front of you. And for 9 example, at Tab 12, there's Exhibit P-561, Inquiry 10 Document 2000987. 11 Do you -- was this issue note drawn to 12 your attention? Now we don't know if this issue note -- 13 what happened to it but -- 14 A: I doubt that it was. 15 Q: And the next issue note at Tab 13, 16 it's P-587, 2000986, was this drawn to your attention? 17 A: It's possible, since there's an 18 involvement of the OPP, that it may have been drawn to my 19 attention. 20 Q: And it talks about the military 21 withdrawing later in the month of July 1995. Were you -- 22 do you recall now having been made aware of that back in 23 1995? 24 A: No, I do not. 25 Q: Then do you -- were you made aware at
831 the end -- on July 29th or July 30th or July 31st or 2 August the 1st or 2nd that the occupiers who had been on 3 the Army Camp had taken over the built up area of the 4 Army Camp? 5 A: I don't believe so. 6 Q: And at Tab 14, there's a copy of an 7 issue note. It's Exhibit P-562, Inquiry document 8 2000985, July 31, 1995. 9 And it relates to the withdrawal of the 10 Military personnel from Camp Ipperwash and the... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Takeover of the built up area. 15 Do you recall getting this document? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And attached to it, the third page is 18 a document entitled, Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash. 19 It's a two (2) page document signed by J.F. Carson, 20 acting Superintendent, Incident Commander. 21 Do you recall seeing this document prior - 22 - at any time in the summer of 1995? 23 A: I recall at some point reading about 24 the -- the -- in the bottom paragraph, about the school 25 bus driving through the gate.
841 Q: Which page are you on? 2 A: Oh, sorry. The pages aren't 3 numbered. It's Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash 4 background. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And it's the issue -- 7 Q: Oh -- 8 A: Bottom paragraph, the issue. 9 Q: Last paragraph on that page -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: It's the third page in on the 12 document. 13 A: I recall at some point that -- being 14 discussed or at least brought to my attention. 15 Q: And was that before or after the 16 occupation of the Park? 17 A: That I can't say with any certainty. 18 Q: If I could take you to Tab 16. This 19 is a letter from Mr. Marcel Beaubien addressed to Mr. 20 Charles Harnick with a copy to you. 21 Do you recall -- it's Exhibit P-534, 22 Inquiry document 1000918. 23 Do you recall receiving a copy of this 24 letter? 25 A: I probably did, since it was sent by
851 an MPP. I'm sure it was brought to my attention. 2 Q: And can you tell us what the 3 procedure was, in the summer of 1995, with respect to 4 dealing with correspondence that came to the Minister's - 5 - came to the Ministry for the Minister? 6 A: We were attempting to develop a 7 policy in the Ministry of a two-week turnaround so that 8 we could respond in a timely way to -- to correspondence. 9 But on a carbon copy, a lot of carbon 10 copies I wouldn't see, wouldn't come to my attention and 11 I think -- but when it involved a member of the 12 Legislature opposition or government, it would -- the 13 staff would bring it to my attention, put it in my -- my 14 mail folder. 15 Q: Do you recall this particular letter? 16 A: Not this particular letter, no. 17 Q: And if you turn to Tab 18, there's a 18 copy of Exhibit P-588, Inquiry Document 2000424, and 19 that's a routing memo that deals with the letter from Mr. 20 Beaubien and it's directing the letter to Mr. O'Grady and 21 there's a note: 22 "No response necessary at this time, as 23 the letter is not addressed to the 24 Minister. If a response should be 25 necessary at a later date, you will be
861 advised." 2 And were you advised that the letter was 3 being sent to Commissioner O'Grady? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And I believe it was -- Ms. Hunt 6 testified that with respect to correspondence initially 7 in the mandate, you as Minister might receive a letter 8 and the proposed reply at the same time. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes, I think that's fair. 11 Q: And that at some point in time the 12 process changed because you wanted to see letters on a 13 more timely -- in a faster -- at a faster -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- time. 16 Is that -- do you recall that happening, 17 sir? 18 A: I don't recall, specifically, that 19 happening. I know that I wanted to be able to -- one (1) 20 of my criticisms, as an Opposition, was the lack of 21 timeliness in responses, and I wanted to correct that, so 22 it -- I'm not sure that happened. 23 Q: And with respect to Exhibit P-534, 24 were you aware of the issue at West Ipperwash Beach, in 25 the summer of 1995?
871 A: I don't believe so. 2 Q: And Mr. Beaubien, on -- as of the end 3 of July 1995, did you know Mr. Beaubien? 4 Had you met him prior to the election of 5 the Government in June of 1995? 6 A: No, I had never met him. I -- I can 7 only guess I met him at some point. There must have been 8 a Caucus meeting at some point following the election 9 and, you know, there was no guarantee I would have met 10 him even at a Caucus meeting. 11 There were something like fifty (50) some 12 new members of Caucus and so it's quite possible that I - 13 - I did not meet him, even at a Caucus meeting. 14 Q: And did you -- if I -- please turn to 15 Tab 23. This is Inquiry Document 1012239, Exhibit P-418. 16 17 And this is a letter, if you turn three 18 (3) pages in, a letter, again, from Mr. Beaubien dated 19 August 14, 1995. It's addressed to Mr. Harnick with a 20 copy to you, Mr. Hodgson, Mr. Newman, and Mr. Simzer, the 21 Ministry of the Solicitor General. 22 And do you recall receiving a copy of this 23 letter, sir? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: Do you recall being advised of a
881 letter from Mr. Beaubien that related to meeting with 2 members -- senior members of the police on August 11th, 3 1995, Ontario Provincial Police? 4 A: Do I recall him meeting with them? 5 Q: Or being advised that he had had a 6 meeting with senior members of the Ontario Provincial 7 Police? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did it cause you any conc -- would it 10 have caused you any concern, in August of 1995, that Mr. 11 Beaubien was meeting with senior members of the Ontario 12 Provincial Police? 13 A: In retrospect, yes. At the time I'm 14 not -- I'm not sure whether -- whether I would have been 15 concerned. I think at -- being he was representing his 16 constituents and being given an update, I'm not sure that 17 I would have felt, at that point, it was inappropriate. 18 Q: And when you say, In retrospect, yes, 19 what do you -- 20 A: Well, I think that it could have been 21 interpreted otherwise in -- in hindsight. 22 Q: And on page 2 there's an item: 23 "Ministries involved have to give the 24 OPP clear guidelines for law 25 enforcement."
891 Was that issue raised with you in or 2 around August 14th, 1995? 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: And with respect to law enforcement, 5 the -- is it -- back in 1995, was it your view that the 6 Ministry -- Minister of the Solicitor General could give 7 the OPP guidelines for law enforcement? 8 A: Guidelines for law enforcement? Not 9 -- not for law enforcement. I guess guidelines in terms 10 of procedures and policies, yes, but in terms of law 11 enforcement, I guess you'd have to elaborate on what you 12 mean by law enforcement. 13 Q: Well, I can tell you that Mr. Carson, 14 who attended the meeting, disagreed with that -- with 15 that statement that there had been any agreement that the 16 Ministry should give clear guidelines with respect to law 17 enforcement. 18 And it was his view that it was up to the 19 police to determine issues of law enforcement -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And would you agree with that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you have any recollection of 24 ever seeing this letter, Mr. Runciman? 25 A: I don't, but again, I'm assuming
901 since it was cc'd that it -- it would have been brought 2 to my attention. 3 Q: But you don't remember? 4 A: I don't recall it, no. 5 Q: And Mr. Simzer was in the issues unit 6 or the correspondence unit? 7 A: He was the acting policing advisor. 8 Q: And he was a police officer? 9 A: No, he had no experience whatsoever. 10 Q: He had no experience? 11 A: No. He was there as -- on an interim 12 basis until we could fill the position. 13 Q: Oh, I see. And in August 1995, or at 14 any time up to September the 6th, 1995 do you recall 15 meeting with Mr. Beaubien? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Or having any telephone conversations 18 with him? 19 A: I recall, at some point, he -- he 20 spoke to me during a caucus meeting. But -- and I'm sure 21 it was about the -- the -- the Park issue and the fact 22 that he wanted me to -- to visit. 23 That there were, you know, extensive 24 concerns. 25 Q: Was this after September the 6th or
911 before? 2 A: No, I can't put a -- I think it was, 3 you know, at some point in August, but I can't be, you 4 know -- 'cause I did travel there, I know, shortly after 5 the shooting. So again, I'm making a lot of assumptions 6 here. 7 My assumption is that he had spoken with 8 me, if there was a caucus meeting in August. If there 9 wasn't a caucus meeting in August, it would have been 10 after the shooting. 11 Q: Do you know if there was a caucus 12 meeting or not? 13 A: I -- I don't know. I can't quite... 14 Q: And the Legislature came back, I 15 think it was September 25th of 1995 or towards the end of 16 September. Does that accord with your recollection? 17 A: I believe so. 18 Q: And prior to the Legislature sitting 19 at the end of -- latter part of September, what was the 20 regular schedule, if there was one, for caucus meetings 21 after -- in that interim period, from the election to the 22 Legislature sitting, the House sitting? 23 A: I don't believe there was a regular 24 schedule. There's a regular schedule when the House is 25 in session, Tuesday mornings. But it would be at the
921 call of the Premier, essentially, and he -- he would want 2 to have a meeting prior to the House reopening, so that 3 everyone was familiar with what was going to happen. 4 And there would, at some point, I would 5 assume, be a -- a retreat of some description, but again, 6 I can't recall when or where that occurred in 1995 and 7 whether there was one, in fact. 8 But normally, during the winter and summer 9 breaks, there is a -- what's described as a retreat where 10 the caucus gets together to analyse what happened in the 11 past and to plan for the future. 12 Q: And you can't recall whether there 13 was one -- 14 A: I can't, I'm sorry. 15 Q: -- in the summer of '95? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And were you aware that there was an 18 IMC, Interministerial Committee meeting, that took place 19 on August the 2nd, 1995? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And were you aware that Mr. Fox 22 attended that meeting on behalf of the Ministry of the 23 Solicitor General? 24 A: No, I wasn't. 25 Q: And did anyone, in August, bring that
931 to your attention? 2 A: I don't believe so. It -- it may 3 have happened, but I don't believe so. 4 Q: And at Tab 19 there's an issue note, 5 Inquiry Document 2000984, Exhibit P-563. And attached to 6 it are two (2) e-mails, but I'm interested simply in the 7 first two (2) pages, it's dated August the 2nd, 1995. 8 Do you recall seeing this issue note, sir? 9 A: I don't recall it but -- you know, 10 specifically, but it certainly looks familiar and so it 11 may well have been brought to my attention. 12 Q: And it relates to the Ipperwash 13 Provincial -- this relates to Camp Ipperwash. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at Tab 20 there's a copy of 16 Exhibit P-506, Inquiry Document 1011682, meeting notes 17 from the Interministerial Committee meeting held on 18 August the 2nd, 1995. 19 Were you provided with a copy of these 20 minutes in August of 1995, sir? 21 A: My office would have been. I'm not 22 sure that I was. 23 Q: Okay. That's what I'm interested in. 24 A: Yeah. I -- I know. 25 Q: What I'm interested in is what -- you
941 don't know, sir -- 2 A: I don't -- I don't recall being 3 provided with these. 4 Q: And again, at Tab 21, there's an 5 issue note, Native Occupation Camp Ipperwash; it's 6 Exhibit P-589, Inquiry Document 2000983. 7 Do you recall, today, whether or not this 8 issue note was provided to you? 9 A: Specifically, no, but I assume it 10 was. 11 Q: And at some point, was there a change 12 in how issue notes were provided to you? 13 A: For the purposes of the legislature 14 there was. Rather than the book of issue notes, I had 15 issues condensed into cards so that I had a -- a card 16 file that was easier to refer to in the legislature when 17 a question was asked. 18 Q: So over the summer of 1995, were you 19 provided with books filled with these issue notes? 20 A: I don't know if they were books 21 filled with issue notes. There were -- there were issue 22 notes provided, but nothing to compare with -- with this. 23 The issues were, as I said, prioritized. And those 24 priority issues were -- were brought to my attention as 25 determined by a group of people, which included
951 representatives of my staff. 2 Q: But, what I'm trying -- you indicated 3 to me before that you had not -- it was your recollection 4 that you had not been apprised of the events, had any 5 knowledge of Ipperwash, other than perhaps a lunch on 6 August the 28th with Commissioner O'Grady, until the 7 takeover of the Park on September the 4th. 8 And what I'm trying to determine is these 9 issues notes deal with the Camp Ipperwash situation and 10 there's a number of them. 11 And do you have any recollection of -- of 12 the issue, back in August 1995? 13 A: No, I do not. But that's not to say 14 that it wasn't brought to my attention. It wouldn't have 15 -- it perhaps wouldn't have -- have stirred any extended 16 interest because the issue was seen as one which was 17 primarily the responsibility of Natural Resources as the 18 landlord, if you will, and the Native Affairs 19 Secretariat. 20 And in terms of priorities in the Ministry 21 at that point in time, it certainly would not have been 22 considered a -- a priority issue. That's my assessment. 23 Q: So that a number of these issue notes 24 you may have seen, but it was, from your perspective, a 25 issue of -- that it's home was with MNR or the Minister
961 Responsible for Native Affairs? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And at Tab 24, there's a copy of 4 Exhibit P-424, a project Maple which was a -- this is a 5 document of the Ontario Provincial Police. This is Mr. 6 Carson's document, actual copy of his document. 7 Have you -- prior to getting ready for 8 these proceedings, had you seen this Project Maple 9 before? 10 A: No, I had not. 11 Q: In August or September of 1995, were 12 you provided with a copy of this document? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And in August of 1995, did you 15 discuss any -- do you recall having any discussions with 16 Mr. Fox about the occupation of Camp Ipperwash or the 17 potential occupation of the Park? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: Mr. Fox does not -- specified that he 20 did not think that he had such discussions with you, but 21 do you -- you don't recall any? 22 A: I share that view. 23 Q: And how did you first learn of the 24 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park, Mr. Runciman? 25 A: I believe I was called by my
971 executive assistant, Ms. Hunt. 2 Q: And do you recall when you were 3 called by Ms. Hunt? 4 A: Not a specific date, no. I know I 5 was in the riding and not in Toronto at the time. 6 Q: And during the summer of 1995, did 7 you spend time both in the riding and in Toronto? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And did you spend any -- what I'm 10 trying to get at, how did you spend your summer that -- 11 time that summer? You've told us about all the meetings 12 that you had, but getting up to speed with respect to the 13 Ministries, but I'm trying to get a better sense of how 14 you -- were you most of the time in Toronto or...? 15 A: I would -- my wife and I were 16 operating another small business at the time and -- my 17 wife primarily. I was in Toronto usually from Sunday 18 night through to Thursday evening, would have a 19 constituency day on Friday. 20 And Saturday and Sunday I would assist her 21 with the business or be involved in community events like 22 fairs, country fairs, those kinds of events, wedding 23 anniversaries that members in rural areas attend, and I 24 would -- so it was a combination of -- of those things. 25 Q: And what type of business were you
981 assisting your wife with? 2 A: Running a motel/campground operation 3 on Thousand Islands Parkway. 4 Q: Oh. And with respect to Ms. Hunt and 5 the notification, do you recall what Ms. Hunt said to 6 you, whether it was on September the 4th or September the 7 5th? 8 A: I think she just apprised me that 9 there had been a shooting and a death and -- 10 Q: No, no, this is with respect to the 11 takeover of the Park. 12 A: Oh, what she told me about the 13 takeover of the Park? That I do not recall. I -- I 14 can't recall, specifically. 15 Q: And at Tab 25 there's a copy of 16 Exhibit P-430, Inquiry Document Number 1009040. It's a 17 press release dated September 5th, 1995, at 2:00 a.m., 18 the Ontario Provincial Police. 19 Do you recall seeing this document on 20 September 5th or September 6th, 1995? 21 A: I don't recall it. 22 Q: In the early part of September 1995, 23 were you provided with -- or over the summer of 1995, on 24 a regular basis, with the newspaper clippings that 25 related to the work of your ministries, or of things such
991 as press releases put out by parts of the Ministry over 2 which you were responsible? 3 A: Certainly with clippings, and we may 4 have been provided with press releases, some press 5 releases, in any event, not all. 6 Q: And with respect to the -- in the 7 summer -- in early September of 1995, did you have a -- 8 did you meet with Ms. Hunt on a regular basis at some 9 point during the day? 10 Did you have a regular meeting, you -- 11 that you would have when you were in Toronto with your 12 staff? 13 A: We -- we tried to meet every morning 14 or set some -- some time aside in the evening. We worked 15 fairly long hours and we usually found an opportunity. 16 Q: And you tried to do that on a daily 17 basis? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what did you do, if anything, 20 with respect to the takeover of the Provincial Park on 21 September 5th, 1995? 22 A: I don't recall doing anything. 23 Q: And do you recall having any meetings 24 with Ms. Hunt or anyone else with respect to what had 25 transpired on the -- on September the 4th with respect to
1001 the Park? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: Were you made aware on September the 4 5th that there was to be a meeting of the 5 Interministerial Committee on September 5th with respect 6 to the Park? 7 A: I think I was made aware of it. 8 Q: And do you recall who made you aware 9 of it and when, before or after the meeting? 10 A: It was before. I think Ms. Hunt 11 indicated to me that it was occurring and that she was 12 attending. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: So it would have been -- would have 15 been early in the morning. 16 Q: And that she -- it would have been 17 early in the morning -- 18 A: Yes it was. 19 Q: -- that she told you about it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you give any instructions to 22 Ms. Hunt with respect to what position, if any, she 23 should take or the -- the Solicitor General's department 24 should take at the meeting? 25 A: We had discussed the issue of police
1011 direction being given to police and she indicated to me 2 that she had contacted all of the involved executive 3 assistants, chiefs of staff and the Premier's office to - 4 - to ensure that they understood that the political arm 5 was not to be involved in providing direction to -- to 6 the police with respect to operational activities. 7 And her indication -- my support was that 8 she would simply reiterate that at the meeting, and that 9 was the sole role of -- that both of us saw for her at 10 that meeting unless there was specific questions that she 11 could deal with. 12 Q: And so it's your recollection that 13 Ms. Hunt indicated that she had spoken to the executive 14 assistants for -- can you recall who? 15 A: For MNR, for the AG and I'm assuming 16 again, I can't be specific, but I would assume it was Deb 17 Hutton she spoke with in the Premier's office, and she 18 seemed to be handling the file for the Premier's office. 19 Q: And other than the -- what you've 20 told us with respect to direction, did you, as Minister 21 of -- as the Solicitor General have any position as to be 22 -- what should be done at or with the Park on September 23 the 5th? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Perhaps that would be a good time to
1021 take the lunch break, sir? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 We'll take our lunch break now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 2:15. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 1:02 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 2:17 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: After the Interministerial Committee 17 meeting on June the 5th, were you given a briefing by Ms. 18 Hunt, or anyone else, as to what happened at the 19 Interministerial Committee -- 20 A: August the 5th? 21 Q: Septem -- September the 5th, excuse 22 me. 23 A: September the 5th? 24 Q: September the 5th. 25 A: I can't recall the details. I -- I
1031 imagine, knowing Ms. Hunt, that she would have given me a 2 brief thumbnail sketch of what -- what happened, what 3 transpired. 4 Q: And could you go to Tab 26, it's 5 Exhibit P-509, Inquiry Document 1012288? And that 6 document is a copy of the meeting notes for the 7 Interministerial Committee meeting on Aboriginal issues 8 for -- on September 5th, 1995. 9 Did you -- have you seen this document, 10 prior to preparing to come to the Inquiry? 11 A: I suspect I did. I suspect I was 12 provided with a copy. 13 Q: Do you recall being provided with a 14 copy, back -- on or about September 5th -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- or September 6th, 1995? 17 A: No, I don't. No. 18 Q: And the -- do you recall what Ms. 19 Hunt said to you after the meeting? 20 A: No. I -- as I said I -- I can't 21 remember her speaking to me, specifically. I'm making an 22 assumption, knowing her, that she would have spoken to 23 me, but certainly I can't remember -- 24 Q: And -- 25 A: -- any details of the conversation.
1041 Q: At Tab 28, there's an e-mail, it's 2 Exhibit P-649. It's Inquiry document 1011769 and it's an 3 e-mail from Ms. Julie Jai, who was the Chair of the 4 Interministerial Committee, to Yan Lazor who was -- who 5 was the direct -- acting director at the time of the 6 Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat. 7 And in the second full paragraph it 8 indicates: 9 "After lengthy discussion, it was 10 agreed that MNR would be the spokesman 11 for -- the spokesperson for today (but 12 OPP on the ground can also respond to 13 the media). That the messages would be 14 the Province has valid title to the 15 Park, the occupiers have been told they 16 are trespassing and have been asked to 17 leave. The province will take legal 18 steps to ensure that they leave." 19 And then the next paragraph: 20 "It was also agreed that the Committee 21 members would advise their Ministers 22 that the group's recommendation is to 23 seek a civil injunction, whether ex 24 parte or interim, has not been 25 determined, and seek direction from
1051 their Ministers on the issue." 2 Firstly, do you recall Ms. Hunt advising 3 you that the Committee members recommended that there be 4 a civil injunction sought, and asking for your 5 instructions? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And is that something that Ms. Hunt, 8 with respect to the position of -- your position as 9 Minister, something that Ms. Hunt would have to come to 10 you for? 11 A: I think she would advise me of what - 12 - what was likely to occur, since it had -- it had 13 policing implications, so I suspect she would -- would 14 have advised me of what the -- 15 Q: You don't -- 16 A: -- recommendation was, but I don't 17 recall. 18 Q: You simply don't recall; you're not 19 saying it didn't happen -- 20 A: No, no that's right. 21 Q: -- you just don't recall. 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And on September 5th, can I ask you 24 what your relationship was to Mr. Harris? Did you have a 25 close relationship or a social relationship or simply a
1061 political relationship? 2 A: I'd call it a friendship. It wasn't 3 a social friendship; we didn't socialize together. 4 Certainly a political friendship. 5 We were both elected in 1981 so we had 6 that kinship, if you will, and -- but beyond that, I 7 wouldn't call us close friends. 8 Q: And back in the summer of 1995, and 9 into September 1995, would you -- did you communicate 10 directly with Mr. Harris if an issue came up or through 11 his staff, normally? 12 A: This is prior -- you've set some 13 parameters there? 14 Q: I did. In the summer of 1995 up to 15 September the 6th, 1995. Early September, that -- well, 16 let's put September the 6th, 1995. 17 A: I don't think, personally, that I 18 would have communicated with him directly on an issue, 19 nor with any of his staff. 20 Q: How would... 21 A: It would have been done through -- 22 through Kathryn Hunt, essentially. 23 Q: So that instructions would go from 24 you to Kathryn Hunt to go to Mr. Harris' staff and... 25 A: David Lindsay, who was his chief of
1071 staff, or Ms. -- Ms. Hutton. 2 Q: Now that -- generally, on September 3 5th, did you speak to Mr. Harris about Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park? 5 A: No, I didn't. 6 Q: On September 5th, 1995, did you speak 7 to Ms. Hutton with respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park? 8 A: I don't believe so. 9 Q: On September 5th, 1995, did you speak 10 to Tom O'Grady with respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: On September the 5th, 1995, did you 13 speak to Ron Fox about Ipperwash Provincial Park? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: On September 5th, 1995, did you -- 16 had you met or did you know acting Superintendent John 17 Carson? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you know Chief Superintendent 20 Chris Coles? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you know Chief -- Superintendent 23 Tony Parkin? 24 A: I don't believe so. 25 Q: And on September 5th, 1995, did you
1081 know Deputy Commissioner Boose? 2 A: I may have met him at one of the 3 briefings. He may have been in attendance. 4 Q: And Deputy Commissioner Nagel 5 (phonetic)? 6 A: Yes, her as well. 7 Q: And you may have met her at -- at a 8 briefing? 9 A: Yes I think that would have been the 10 only opportunity. 11 Q: On September the 5th, 1995, did you 12 speak to or instruct any of your staff to speak to Chief 13 Superintendent Coles? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Superintendent Tony Parkin? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Super -- Acting Superintendent John 18 Carson? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Chief Superin -- Deputy Commissioner 21 Boose? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Deputy Commissioner Nagel? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And the question is with respect to
1091 the events of Ipperwash Provincial Park, do you 2 understand that? 3 A: Yes, I understand that. 4 Q: And did you give any instructions to 5 any of your staff to speak to Commissioner O'Grady with 6 respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park on September the 7 5th? 8 A: I did not. 9 Q: Now, what discussion if any, did you 10 have on September the 5th with Mr. Hodgson, the Minister 11 of Natural Resources or Mr. Harnick? 12 A: September the 5th, this is a 13 Wednesday? I'm -- 14 Q: September the 5th is a Tuesday. 15 A: A Tuesday. The day before the 16 Cabinet meeting? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: I don't recall having any 19 conversations with -- certainly not -- certainly not with 20 Mr. Hodgson. 21 Q: Mr. Harnick? 22 A: It wouldn't have been about Ipperwash 23 I don't believe, if we had a discussion. We may have had 24 a discussion because there were so many overlapping 25 issues that we were involved with that there may have
1101 been a conversation. I can't say there was or wasn't. 2 Q: Okay. But, do you recall any 3 conversation with respect to Ipperwash? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: And at Tab 29 of the black book in 6 front of you is a copy of Exhibit P-564. It's Inquiry 7 Document 3000769. Did you -- do you recall whether you 8 saw this document on September the 5th, 1995 or September 9 the 6th, 1995? 10 A: I don't recall. I'm again making an 11 assumption that I would have seen it but -- 12 Q: And the last entry on the page is the 13 Ipper -- 14 "The Ministry of Natural Resources is 15 seeking an injunction ordering the 16 occupiers to vacate the Park. 17 Enforcement action in relation to an 18 injunction will be considered if and 19 when an injunction is granted." 20 Were you aware -- had a decision been made 21 on September the 5th, 1995 to your knowledge that the MNR 22 would seek an injunction? 23 A: I may have been advised. Again, it's 24 -- it's difficult to recall with respect to whether or 25 not I'd been -- been advised they were going to seek an
1111 injunction. I think it was -- it was, I think, the 2 recommendation of the Interministerial Committee as you 3 pointed out. 4 So, my suspicion is that at some point 5 through Kathryn Hunt she would have advised me. 6 Q: But do you -- who, from your 7 perspective, as a Minister of the Crown in early 8 September 1995 -- who had the authority to make a 9 decision that a Ministry or the Minister of -- the 10 Attorney General, on behalf of the Government, would seek 11 an injunction or not seek an injunction? Whose decision 12 was that? 13 A: Well, I think in the -- and again, 14 I'm -- I'm guessing to be quite frank, I -- I suspect it 15 would have been the Ministry involved itself, the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources, that would have made that 17 decision as the landlords, the owners of the property. 18 Q: On September 5th, 1995, did you have 19 any discussions with Marcel Beaubien either by telephone 20 or in person? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: Did you instruct anyone of your staff 23 to speak to Mr. Beaubien on your behalf? 24 A: I don't believe so. 25 Q: If I could take you to Tab 31. This,
1121 for your benefit, Mr. Runciman, is a copy of an extract 2 from Exhibit P-426, Inquiry Document 1002419, and these 3 are the scribe notes taken at the -- at the Command Post 4 in Forest for the Incident Commander who was at the time 5 Mr. Carson. And at page 40 there's a reference: 6 "Inspect..." 7 The second last paragraph at the bottom of 8 page 40: 9 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 10 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 11 Premier. There's -- there is to be a 12 press release by the Solicitor General 13 stating that this is not an Indian 14 issue, it is an MNR and a Provincial 15 issue." 16 Did you give any instructions to issue an 17 press release indicating that the situation at Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park is not an Indian issue but an MNR and a 19 Provincial issue? 20 A: I did not. 21 Q: Did you have any discussions with 22 anyone on September the 5th that related to whether or 23 not -- to the -- the information contained in this 24 paragraph? 25 A: I don't believe so.
1131 Q: And if Mr. Beaubien is relating this 2 information to Inspector Carson the Incident Commander, 3 do you know where Mr. Beaubien would be getting this 4 information -- 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: -- insofar as it relates to the -- 7 your department? And before you answer, My Friend has an 8 objection. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 10 it's not so much an objection as a request respectively 11 of your Counsel to clarify. 12 We don't actually have the Will Say or a - 13 - we're -- anticipated evidence document of Mr. Beaubien. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of Beaubien. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And because I saw 16 no reference to such a -- all right. 17 Because if My Friend is referring to 18 something he expects Mr. Beaubien to say because I -- I 19 didn't see anything like that in it and I may have gotten 20 it wrong. 21 So if My Friend is saying he anticipates 22 Mr. Beaubien to testify "X" and "Y", but what he's saying 23 is looking at this scribe note it looks like Beaubien 24 said "X" and "Y". 25 Now, if Beaubien is not going to say that
1141 he said "X" and "Y" the Witness should know that if we 2 know that -- is that fair? If I try to say this again 3 I'm going to only make it worse. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 5 you made the point. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. It's 7 just if we anticipate that's where his evidence is going, 8 fair enough. If we don't, then the Witness should 9 probably know that too. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, this is a -- 11 this is -- as I recall I think Inspector Carson -- but I 12 can't put my finger on exactly when, but this information 13 came to Inspector Carson, he said, from Mr. Beaubien. 14 Now, I don't know what's in Mr. Beaubien's 15 outline and -- but the -- the question -- so I don't know 16 what Mr. Beaubien's going to say, but we do know that 17 this information as I -- as I recall Inspector Carson's 18 information -- evidence was that it was information that 19 came from Mr. Beaubien. And I'm trying to -- pardon? 20 And I assume based on that assumption, I'm 21 just trying to find out where the Solicitor -- if the -- 22 find out if the Solicitor General made any -- any -- gave 23 any instructions to that effect or did anything with 24 respect to this issue. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you
1151 can ask that question without necessarily even -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- referring 4 to this scribe note. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Was it your position on September the 8 5th, 1995, that this was not an Indian issue but an MNR 9 and a Provincial issue? 10 A: I don't know if I'd had a position on 11 it at that point in time to be quite honest with you. I 12 certainly felt that the issue was primarily the carriage 13 of -- of MNR and the Native Affairs Secretariat who were 14 -- who were the experts with respect to the relationship. 15 So I think that that was my -- my view of 16 it. I hadn't formed any other opinion. 17 Q: And, I think you -- did you give 18 instructions or -- that a press release should be issued 19 by your department indicating that it was not an Indian 20 issue, but an MNR and a Provincial issue? 21 A: Not at all. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Do you recall meeting with Larry
1161 Taman and Ms. -- and Ms. Julie Jai on September 5th or 2 September 6th, 1995 with Ms. Todres? 3 A: Julie Jai? 4 Q: Yeah, Julie Jai was the -- excuse me. 5 A: No. 6 Q: With -- 7 A: Because I don't recall ever meeting 8 Julie Jai. 9 Q: Okay. It would have -- I misspoke 10 myself. It was a meeting with Larry Taman, Elaine 11 Todres, Kathryn Hunt and perhaps Mr. Harnick. 12 A: I think, at some point, we did get 13 together in my office to talk about matters of mutual 14 interest. 15 Q: And do you recall if that was on the 16 morning of September -- on September 5th or the morning 17 of September 6th? 18 A: No, I don't recall a specific date. 19 I know that at some point we did -- we did get together. 20 Q: And do you recall if Mr. Harnick was 21 there? 22 A: I think he was. 23 Q: And do you recall if Mr. Hodgson was 24 there? 25 A: No, he wouldn't have been there.
1171 Q: And do you recall if this was before 2 the Cabinet meeting or what has been called the dining 3 room meeting that was held after the Cabinet meeting on 4 September the 6th? 5 A: It definitely wouldn't have been 6 before on the day of the cabinet meeting, it would have 7 been -- it would have preceded that. 8 Q: Preceded the Cabinet meeting? 9 A: Yes, yeah. Not -- not -- it wouldn't 10 have been on that specific day because that day would be 11 a very, very busy day, so that that wouldn't be an 12 opportune time to get together. 13 Q: Do you re -- it wouldn't have been an 14 opportune -- 15 A: I would think Monday or Tuesday would 16 have been, perhaps, a more -- 17 Q: Monday was the holiday -- 18 A: -- reasonable. Monday was a holiday? 19 Q: Tuesday was September the 5th. Mr. - 20 - the evidence of Mr. Taman was that, very early on 21 September the 6th, there was a meeting at the offices of 22 the Solicitor General. It was attended by Mr. Harnick, 23 yourself, Ms. Todres, the -- and at the meeting a 24 consensus was reached that this should be dealt with 25 primarily as a law enforcement matter and the OPP should
1181 deal with it. 2 The priority was to see that nobody got 3 hurt. Everybody was of the view that there was not any 4 grand urgency to this and that the -- an injunction would 5 be sought. 6 A: Well, I can't argue with that. If he 7 feels it was the 6th, the Cabinet meeting, I -- I find 8 that passing strange because of the -- the time lines on 9 the Cabinet day and the pressures that are on a Minister. 10 Q: So you can't... 11 A: I can't confirm. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: My Friend can't be 13 blamed since I am sure I've committed this crime many, 14 many times myself, that he's quoted one (1) portion of 15 evidence to ask for the witness' reaction. But the 16 difficulty is, of course, Mr. Harnick testified that he 17 thought something different had occurred and that Mr. 18 Runciman, personally, was implicated in Mr. Harnick's 19 answer; that is, Mr. Harnick described Mr. Runciman's 20 activities that day. 21 I'm trying to be deliberately vague so 22 that that evidence can be put to Mr. Runciman. Mr. 23 Harnick has a different recollection, which has Mr. 24 Runciman returning from somewhere. And I think that 25 ought to be put to the witness, too, because, otherwise,
1191 the witness is simply deferring to one recollection, not 2 knowing there's another one. 3 And I don't know if My Friend wants me to 4 put more meat on the bones, but it's on the issue of -- 5 of where Mr. Runciman would have been, on his way back, I 6 think, from his home community. 7 Does My Friend's recollection get 8 refreshed? Well, Mr. Harnick was of the view that Mr. 9 Runciman would not have been at that meeting and he goes 10 a step further and indicates that he believes on the day 11 after Labour Day, Mr. Runciman would have been busy 12 making his way back from, I believe, and I apologize to 13 Mr. Runciman, I believe Brockville. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, but that's the-- 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And that's a 16 different recollection. I'm simply saying that if he's 17 going to put one (1) it should -- unless I'm confusing 18 the meetings -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think you're 21 confusing -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, then I -- 23 then I apologize. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 25 not sure...
1201 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Mr. Harnick's evidence was that he 4 did not have any meetings with you -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- prior to the dining 7 room meeting. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On September 9 the 6th. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On September the 6th. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That was Mr. Harnick's 13 evidence. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, that would be my 15 sense too. That's why I say, if a meeting occurred it 16 would have been prior to September the 6th, on the 17 Tuesday. 18 And that lines up with what the other 19 gentleman was suggesting, that I would have been coming 20 in from my riding and that's when the meeting would have 21 occurred. And that makes more sense to me than having a 22 meeting of that nature on a Cabinet day because a Cabinet 23 day is so packed full, plus I have to be briefed prior to 24 going to the Cabinet meeting. So the -- the date just 25 doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
1211 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And Mr. Harnick's evidence, I 4 believe, was that the meeting did not take place on 5 September the 5th either? 6 A: He could be right. I know -- I know 7 a meeting occurred. At -- at some point I recall us 8 getting together and whether he was there or not I -- I 9 thought it would be in -- in -- make sense that he would 10 have been in attendance. It's hard -- it's hard to see a 11 meeting occurring in my office without him being there. 12 Q: And was this -- the meeting that you 13 recall, was this before or after the death of Dudley 14 George? 15 A: I believe it was before. 16 Q: And the -- Ms. Todres indicated that 17 she was not certain whether the meeting was on September 18 the 5th or the 6th, but she believes that in attendance, 19 where she testified, were Larry Taman, yourself, Mr. 20 Harnick, and their executive assistants? 21 A: That makes sense. 22 Q: And that it was her evidence that the 23 general rule -- view arising from that meeting was that a 24 slow and steady approach should be taken. 25 Mr. Runciman shared in that view. He did
1221 not indicate any criticism of the way in which the OPP 2 had handled the matter to that point. He did not say he 3 wanted to, in any way, direct the police on how they 4 ought to deal with the situation. He did not express any 5 views about the use of force. He did not take any kind 6 of strong view about how the matter should be handled." 7 That was her evidence. That -- 8 A: Well, I think that that meeting, what 9 little I recall of it, was not confined to simply a 10 discussion of Ipperwash, we were talking about a number 11 of issues. 12 Q: But does that help you, at all, with 13 respect to when the meeting might have taken -- 14 A: No, no. 15 Q: Now, Mr. Vrancart, who was the Deputy 16 Minister of -- Deputy of the Ministry of Natural 17 Resources indicated -- testified that he recalls 18 attending a meeting with you and Mr. Harnick, your Deputy 19 Ministers, the executive assistants, Deb Hutton, Paul 20 Rhodes and Ron Fox. 21 And that was on the morning of -- 22 initially he thought it was the morning of September the 23 6th, but he then said that it was possible that the 24 meeting took place on September the 7th. 25 Do you recall a meeting, on the morning of
1231 September the 6th, with yourself, Mr. Hodgson, Mr. 2 Harnick, executive assistants, the Deputy Ministers, Ms. 3 Hutton, Mr. Rhodes and Mr. Fox? 4 A: I don't, no. 5 Q: And on September the 6th, you were 6 aware that the Interministerial Committee Meeting -- 7 Interministerial Committee was going to meet again? 8 A: I'm sure I was. 9 Q: And did you meet, do you recall, with 10 Ms. Hunt on the morning of September the 6th? 11 A: I don't recall meeting, but I assume 12 that I did meet with her. 13 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 32 of 14 the book please, it's Exhibit P-513, Inquiry Document 15 1000911. It's an e-mail from Ron Fox to Elaine Todres 16 and Kathryn Hunt with a carbon copy to Barbara Taylor. 17 It's dated September 6th, 1995 at 7:55 a.m. 18 And firstly, did -- were you provided with 19 a copy of this e-mail on September the 6th? 20 A: I don't recall being provided with 21 one. 22 Q: And do you recall being advised by 23 Ms. Hunt or Ms. Todres of the information set out in the 24 e-mail? 25 A: I'm sure I was.
1241 Q: But -- you're sure you were but do 2 you have any independent recollection? 3 A: No, I do not, no. 4 Q: And the IMC meeting on September the 5 6th was scheduled to start at 9:30. What instructions, 6 if any, did you give to Ms. Hunt with respect to that 7 meeting? 8 A: I don't recall giving any 9 instructions. It would have been her advising me that 10 she would be attending. And I think we had already 11 covered that ground with respect to -- to our position 12 which was essentially not interfering with operational 13 matters of the police. 14 So, that was the -- sort of a repetitive 15 message and that was essentially our -- our perspective 16 on it. There were others in attendance who could have, 17 if there were questions raised about -- about the police 18 presence, others could have responded to those kinds of 19 questions. 20 Q: And did you have any discussions on 21 the morning of September the -- the 6th prior to the 22 Cabinet meeting with the Premier or any of his staff with 23 respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you indicate that anyone on the
1251 morning of September the 6th or on September the 5th, 2 that you as Solicitor General wanted to deal with the 3 situation at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 4 A: No. I did not, no. 5 Q: And can you recall what time the 6 Cabinet meeting started on the morning of September the 7 6th? 8 A: Specifically, I can't but it 9 traditionally started at ten o'clock, 10:00 a.m. 10 Q: And how long did it traditionally go? 11 A: Three (3), three and a half (3 1/2) 12 hours. And we usually had a break at the end of it where 13 staff would leave and we -- we would have a political 14 discussion, a brief political discussion. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: Which could go until, you know, 1:30 17 or so. 18 Q: And do you recall the meeting, 19 Cabinet meeting on September the 6th, 1995? 20 A: You know, because of the concerns you 21 -- you think you remember some of it but I suppose that 22 happens. I -- I believe we may have in the -- the after 23 Cabinet session in our brief discussion about issues, 24 this was perhaps briefly discussed and then at that point 25 the Premier indicated that we were going to be meeting
1261 briefly in the -- in the room off of the Cabinet Chamber 2 to discuss the issue. 3 So, I don't believe we got into any 4 lengthy discussion about it because there was going to be 5 a -- a followup meeting to discuss in more detail. 6 Q: And do you recall if Mr. Harnick was 7 at the Cabinet meeting? 8 A: I believe he was, yes. 9 Q: And he's testified that he was. What 10 about Mr. Hodgson? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you recall him being there? 13 A: I'm -- I recall more with Mr. Harnick 14 because he sat beside me at Cabinet, so I think we -- we 15 talked about the fact that there was going to be a 16 meeting afterwards. Like, we had just been notified and 17 I think that was -- so I was aware of his presence. 18 But, I'm -- I didn't -- I can't say with 19 any degree of confidence that Mr. Hodgson was there, but 20 I suspect he was. In the early days he didn't miss too 21 many Cabinet meetings. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: In the early days, you didn't miss 24 too many Cabinet meetings. 25 Q: It was important to be there?
1271 A: There was too much going on. 2 Q: And the -- other than what you've 3 told us that -- about the meeting to be -- take place 4 after the Cabinet meeting, what was, if anything, said 5 about Ipperwash Provincial Park that you can recall? 6 A: I really don't have any recollection 7 of any extensive discussion about the situation either 8 with, I don't believe, in fact, that I at any point 9 discussed it with Mr. Hodgson. 10 And I know that Mr. Harnick and I may have 11 had a few brief comments at Cabinet at an earlier meeting 12 about the situation, but that was about the extent of it. 13 Q: And the -- the meeting in the 14 Premier's dining room, you were asked to attend that 15 meeting by the Premier, by Mr. Harris? 16 A: I believe so. I think he -- now, we 17 may have been -- had -- had some little notice prior to 18 that. I don't think -- I think we may have gotten a note 19 sent into Cabinet. I'm not really clear on -- on the 20 notification. 21 But, certainly I do recall him, at the 22 very least, reminding us that we were having a brief 23 meeting following the adjournment of Cabinet. 24 Q: And did you give instructions to 25 anyone with respect to your department as to who should
1281 attend the meeting? 2 A: No, I had no idea who was attending 3 that meeting until I walked into the room. 4 Q: And be -- how -- what was the length 5 of time of the break between the Cabinet meeting and the 6 start of the meeting in the dining room? 7 A: I don't think it would have been too 8 long. I think the Premier went into his office, I would 9 say, you know, five (5), ten (10), fifteen (15) minutes 10 at the most. 11 Q: And did you have the occasion to 12 speak to Kathryn Hunt during the break? 13 A: It's possible. I can't recall. 14 Q: Okay. Did you have -- did you speak 15 during the break to Ms. Todres? 16 A: Again I don't recall any specific -- 17 specific conversations. We probably said something to 18 each other, we wouldn't -- Hello, how are you, if nothing 19 else. I -- it's probably the first time I'd seen her 20 that morning. 21 Q: And did you receive any report, prior 22 to going into the cab -- into the dining room meeting 23 from your staff or from -- about what happened at the 24 Interministerial Committee meeting? 25 A: I don't believe so. I know that I
1291 had -- was -- was briefed before going into Cabinet and 2 I, again it's fuzzy in the sense of whether I heard the 3 information twice or once with respect to MNR's 4 suggestions or suggestions that some of the things that 5 were happening on the Park site, whether Kathryn in -- in 6 my briefing session had apprised me of that or whether it 7 was Ron Vrancart at the -- at the dining room meeting. 8 I know that certainly that I -- I'm 9 certain that I heard it there, but whether I was given a, 10 you know, a thumbnail sketch earlier in the day, I'm not 11 -- I can't really recall. 12 Q: And what did -- can you tell us, when 13 you went into the dining room meeting, where you sat, 14 sir? 15 A: Where I sat? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: I think I sat, like, next to Larry 18 Taman and I was down closer to the end of the table. And 19 I think two (2) deputies were on the side of the table I 20 was on. I was at the end of the table. 21 Q: And perhaps we could just -- in the 22 green book in -- the green folder in front of you, sir, 23 there's a little drawing of the Premier's dining room. 24 And we're told that north is at the top. 25
1301 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And -- 4 A: The Premier -- the Premier's 5 boardroom? Is that the one you're looking at? 6 Q: It's the Premier's -- yeah, the 7 Premier's boardroom. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: And there's -- we were -- we've heard 10 evidence that there was a table in the -- the boardroom 11 that was located in the middle of the room? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And could you draw the table in? 14 A: I just did, yes. 15 Q: And can you indicate on the table 16 where the individuals that you recall being at the 17 meeting were sitting, and put an X" and their initials, 18 or their name? 19 A: Yes. Do you want me to hand this 20 over or just indicate to you? 21 Q: Well, we're going to do both. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: But if you... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1311 A: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now, if -- perhaps you could describe 6 in words what you've written on the copy of the diagram 7 that you have? 8 A: In terms of directions what did you 9 say was north and south? 10 Q: North is at the top. 11 A: Right here? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: South. I don't know if you can read 14 that or not; Todres, Dan and myself and, I think, Hunt 15 was around here. I'm not sure about Moran, Bangs, 16 Hodgson, Vrancart, Harnick and the Premier up around this 17 area. 18 And I -- my recollection is the Premier 19 sat on the edge of his chair, on the arm of the chair; 20 didn't actually sit down. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: With respect, and I haven't got 25 facilities to put this up on the screen, but you've
1321 placed the tables on the -- in the middle of the room and 2 north is at the top of this drawing where a hallway is. 3 You've placed on this sketch and I would ask that it be 4 marked the next exhibit. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-987, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-987: Diagram of floor plan of 8 Premier's Office, Premier's 9 Boardroom, Council Chamber, 10 EA's office, reception, 11 hallway and washroom; marked 12 by witness Mr. Robert 13 Runciman, January 09/06. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: On Exhibit P-987, the -- Ms. Hutton 17 on the northeast corner of the table at -- at the top of 18 the table and the Premier next to Ms. Hutton? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And then along the east side of the 21 table Mr. Harnick, Mr. Vrancart -- excuse me -- Mr. 22 Hodgson and then on the southeast corner of the table, 23 Mr. Bangs, then Ms. Hunt, then you, along the west side 24 of the table on the south end of the table, then going 25 north, Mr. Taman and Ms. Todres.
1331 Is that your recollection? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: And the -- and you put Mr. Moran on 4 the -- along the wall. Were other people sitting along 5 the wall that you can recall? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Now, if I could take you to -- along 8 the outer wall on the west, south or east side? 9 A: I believe it was on the west side. 10 Q: That was Mr. Moran on the west side? 11 A: I believe he was. Down in that -- 12 that vicinity. 13 Q: And it's your -- I'm pointing to the 14 lower lefthand corner as one looks at this. Do you 15 recall -- do you recall Mr. Fox being at the meeting? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Do you recall Mr. Patrick being at 18 the meeting? 19 A: No. I didn't -- I must admit that I 20 -- I don't believe I knew Mr. Patrick at that point in 21 time. 22 Q: Okay. But do you recall Mr. Fox 23 being there? 24 A: No, I don't recall him being there. 25 Q: And if you could go to -- please turn
1341 to Exhibit 44 -- at Tab 44, it's Exhibit P-968 and it's a 2 copy of the diagram drawn by Ms. Hutton. 3 And she places individuals at the table: 4 Ms. Hutton and Mr. Harris at the top of the table to the 5 north end, Mr. Taman and Ms. Todres on the west side of 6 the table, Mr. Harnick and Mr. Hodgson on the east side 7 of the table. And those are the individuals she's 8 marked. 9 And then at the other -- at Tab 45 there's 10 a sketch marked by Ms. Todres, it's Exhibit P-985. And 11 Ms. Todres put Mr. Taman and Ms. Todres on the west side 12 of the table and Mr. Harnick and Mr. Hodgson on the east 13 side of the table, but the Premier and Ms. Hutton on the 14 south as opposed to the north. 15 A: Hmm. 16 Q: Your recollection is that they were 17 on the north end? 18 A: Yeah. Absolutely. My recollection 19 is as well, the Premier didn't sit down. He just sat on 20 the arm of his chair -- a chair. 21 Q: And can you tell us what you can 22 remember took place at that meeting? When you went into 23 the room, who was present? 24 A: No, I can't tell you who was present. 25 I think -- I believe everyone who was going to be
1351 involved in the meeting was there but other than the 2 Premier, but we were sort of straggling in. Some members 3 would have delivered their Cabinet books, for example, to 4 staffers who were waiting in one -- in one of the 5 anterooms, that sort of thing, or been engaged in 6 conversations so that there was not a, sort of a, one 7 time flow into the room. 8 But I believe the Deputies were there and 9 -- and some of the staff but I can't recall specifically 10 because I -- as I said some of the people I didn't really 11 know that well. 12 Q: And what do you recall took place at 13 the dining room meeting? 14 A: Well, things that stand out in my 15 memory were Mr. Vrancart giving a -- a summary of the -- 16 of the situation on the ground from MNR's perspective and 17 what he was hearing from -- from park rangers and 18 officials in the Ministry that there had been gunfire 19 heard in the evening and there was some -- someone who -- 20 who thought that it was an AK-47 being shot off. I 21 recall that very vividly. 22 And there was also the comment that people 23 were coming in to the site; they were described as 24 warriors, coming into the site from various parts of 25 North America.
1361 Q: And who -- 2 A: This was Vrancart's so-called 3 intelligence, that he was providing us with an update of 4 what he was hearing from MNR staff in the field. 5 So, I think that that was somewhat 6 alarming to everyone. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: I think, essentially, that was when 9 we got into a discussion surrounding what -- what we 10 should be doing, and essentially that the -- the 11 conversation focussed on an injunction and the various 12 types of injunctions that were available and -- and the 13 pros and cons of each. 14 Q: And who led that discussion? 15 A: It was essentially the deputy 16 Attorney General with some participation from the 17 Attorney General. 18 Q: And can you recall what was discussed 19 in terms of the types of injunctions? 20 A: Whatever a routine injunction is, 21 which, I gather, allows the opposing party to participate 22 and could take some time before the Courts before it was 23 granted, if it was granted, versus the injunction that 24 could be -- could be granted by the Courts without the 25 involvement of the other party, and an expedited
1371 injunction -- expedited injunction. 2 So, that was essentially -- the 3 conversation was focussed on -- on, if we went down that 4 road, what would be the potential stumbling blocks and 5 what was the likelihood of success and -- and if 6 successful, when could it be delivered and have an impact 7 in terms of the occupation. 8 Q: That -- with respect to an injunction 9 generally or -- 10 A: I think most of it focussed on the -- 11 the -- the speedier version, the ex parte -- ex parte. 12 Q: And do you recall what position Mr. 13 Taman favoured or recommended? 14 A: I -- my -- I don't have a vivid 15 recollection of it. I think that his -- his -- he was -- 16 I don't think he was adamant about one or the other. I 17 think his -- his view was that probably a -- a preference 18 would have been to -- to -- to go the longer route, but 19 I'm not sure that he -- he said explicitly that that was 20 what he would prefer to do. 21 I think he simply laid out the facts and - 22 - but that's my -- my reading of -- at the time, I think 23 was that -- that probably would have been his preference 24 but he felt that it had a greater chance of success. 25 Q: And was there a -- do you recall a
1381 discussion about serving notice on the other party, but 2 with an abridged period of notice? 3 A: I re -- at some point, and I'm not 4 sure again whether it was at this meeting or not, I know 5 there was a brief discussion of delivery and -- and I 6 know that, at some point, this whole issue of a 7 helicopter came up and dropping documents on the site. 8 Now, I believe it was discussed at that 9 meeting, but I -- I'm not really, you know, firm on that, 10 with respect to my -- my recall abilities. 11 Q: Being at the dining room meeting? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: The -- 14 A: I suspect that's where it occurred, 15 but I'm not sure. 16 Q: You don't know? 17 A: I'm not sure, no. 18 Q: The evidence -- we've heard evidence 19 that the suggestion to drop it from a helicopter was the 20 suggestion of the Judge on September the 7th. 21 A: It could be. 22 Q: And that it was then discussed back 23 in Toronto after the Judge made that -- 24 A: That may be the case. I know it was 25 discussed in terms of a raised delivery and I think that
1391 that was what it -- I recall the delivery being discussed 2 and the delivery mode was helicopter, but the timing of 3 that discussion I can't recall -- 4 Q: And at -- 5 A: -- with certainty. 6 Q: -- the dining room meeting was -- do 7 you -- what else do you recall of the dining room 8 meeting? 9 A: Well, I think that the -- I -- I 10 don't recall a lot of participation by others in the 11 room. I think the Premier was, you know, clearly 12 concerned, and I think we all were, especially in the 13 wake of Mr. Vrancart's observations about a potentially 14 very dangerous situation evolving and certainly wanted to 15 -- to see it brought to a resolution in a timely way. 16 I seem to recall a reference to Oka that 17 he didn't -- he didn't want to see it, you know, turn 18 into a -- to an Oka-like situation. 19 Q: That was something said by Mr. 20 Harris? 21 A: I believe it was said by the -- by 22 the Premier. 23 Q: And do you recall anything else that 24 the Premier said? 25 A: No, I do not. I know that he was
1401 clearly encouraging the Attorney General and his office 2 to -- to get on with the job. 3 Q: And get on the job how? 4 A: Through the legal processes that were 5 available. 6 Q: And the -- was there a decision made, 7 that you recall, at the end of the meeting, as to how to 8 proceed? 9 A: Well, I think there was an 10 indication. There may have been some "I's" to be dotted 11 and "T's" to be crossed, but I think that there was a 12 general assumption that the expedited injunction would be 13 sought. 14 Q: The injunction and -- there are 15 different kinds of injunctions. I appreciate you're not 16 a lawyer but -- 17 A: The ex parte injunction. 18 Q: Ex parte injunction? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: That was your understanding? 21 A: I think that was the -- the general 22 thrust at -- there may have been a few questions that 23 required answering or concerns that required addressing 24 at the conclusion of the meeting with respect to that, 25 but I think that this is the -- the way to -- to deal
1411 with this before the situation becomes grave and so if 2 there's some questions to answer let's get them answered 3 and -- and get on with it. I think that was essentially 4 the -- the thrust of the message. 5 Q: Is there anything else you recall, 6 specifically? 7 A: I don't think so, no. 8 Q: Do you recall that whether, at the 9 end of the meeting, when the end -- excuse me, do you 10 recall when the meeting ended? 11 A: I think it was a rather brief 12 meeting, twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes. I don't 13 think it would have been any longer than that. 14 Q: And did everyone leave at the same 15 time or did some people leave and others remain? 16 A: I -- I don't think everyone left at 17 the same time. There were some people engaged in 18 discussion. 19 Q: And do you recall who left the 20 meeting first? 21 A: No, I do not, no. 22 Q: Was it Mr. Harris? 23 A: Oh, yes. Yes, certainly he left 24 first. Yes, that's true. 25 Q: And did you remain after Mr. Harris?
1421 A: Briefly. 2 Q: Were you -- and did you -- was -- 3 when you were at the meeting was Mr. -- when you left -- 4 did you leave before Mr. Hodgson? 5 A: I think I did, but I -- I'm not 6 certain about that. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall a discussion 8 at the meeting about the importance of the separation 9 between the Government and police? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: And do you recall -- were you there 12 when -- from the beginning of the -- when the meeting 13 started? 14 A: I believe I was. 15 Q: And do you recall Ms. Todres saying 16 anything at the meeting? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you -- 19 A: She may have, but I don't recall. 20 Q: And do you recall Mr. Fox coming into 21 the meeting after the meeting had begun? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: Do you recall Mr. Fox being 24 introduced by Mr. Lindsey? 25 A: No.
1431 Q: Do you -- do you recall if there was 2 any introductions at the beginning of the meeting for the 3 people who were not Cabinet Ministers? 4 A: No, I don't think so. 5 Q: Do you recall -- 6 A: I don't recall Mr. Lindsey being in 7 attendance either, to be quite honest. 8 Q: Pardon me? 9 A: You mentioned Mr. Lindsey? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I don't recall him being in 12 attendance. 13 Q: Do you recall a report having been 14 given by Mr. Fox? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall a reference, by the 17 Premier, to the Holocaust? 18 A: No, I do not. 19 Q: And the -- I think you indicated that 20 the Premier appeared to be concerned about the situation? 21 A: Anxious. 22 Q: And how did he communicate that 23 concern? 24 A: Body language, to some degree. I 25 think that he is a -- a strong personality and that when
1441 you're in his presence, you understand that. 2 I think he wasn't shy about expressing his 3 concern and saying that I don't want this to deteriorate 4 into a -- a difficult situation, and as I've mentioned, 5 in referencing Oka, and I want you to get on with it, 6 whatever legal tools are available to us, we should be 7 utilizing them and deal with the situation. 8 Q: And do you recall, either at this 9 meeting or at any other time on September the 6th, the 10 Premier giving a time line as to when things needed to be 11 done? 12 A: Not any specific time line. I think 13 that he -- he didn't want it to drag on. 14 Q: Fair to say he wanted it done as 15 quickly as possible? 16 A: In an appropriate fashion, yes. 17 Q: And do you re -- we've heard evidence 18 that Mr. Harris said that, I want the fucking Indians out 19 of the Park. 20 A: No, I don't recall that comment at 21 all. 22 Q: And we also have heard evidence that 23 Mr. Hodgson said that the, to quote: 24 "Get the fucking Indians out of my 25 Park".
1451 Did you recall hearing that statement? 2 A: No, I don't -- didn't. 3 Q: Pardon? 4 A: I did not hear that. 5 Q: Now, you did not hear it or do you 6 not recall, or what? 7 A: Both. 8 Q: Both? You don't recall hearing it? 9 A: I don't recall hearing it. 10 Q: And with respect to Mr. -- the 11 comment attributed to Mr. Harris, you don't recall 12 hearing that? 13 A: I do not, no. 14 Q: And do you disagree with Ms. Todres, 15 with respect to what she recalled? 16 A: I have a theory about that, but I'm 17 sure you don't want to hear my theories, but -- 18 Q: No. 19 A: -- I disagree with her, yes. 20 Q: What about Mr. Harnick? 21 A: I -- again, I -- I can't explain 22 that, why people have different versions of what they 23 heard and who they heard it from. 24 If I had the liberty of suggesting that 25 we've heard that accusation made for so many years, that
1461 I think that sometimes that replaces memory and becomes 2 entrenched as a fact, rather than reality. 3 Q: Do you... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: When you entered the room, was Mr. 8 Harris in the room? 9 A: I don't believe he was, no. He went 10 -- I believe he went into his office, which is adjoining, 11 for a brief period of time, and then joined us. 12 Q: And do you recall when Mr. Harnick -- 13 were you in the room when Mr. Harnick entered the room? 14 A: I think so, but again I can't be 15 positive about that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I don't think he went into Mr. 18 Harris' office, I don't believe he did. I think he came 19 into the meeting room, but he may have been delayed in 20 the Cabinet room. 21 Q: Did you say anything at the meeting? 22 A: I don't believe I participated. I 23 was there, essentially, as an observer, but if a policing 24 issue arose, and we felt it was appropriate, I would have 25 contributed.
1471 Q: Do you recall the Premier talking 2 about the OPP making mistakes? 3 A: No. I think -- I think he was 4 concerned that the situation had gotten to the point it 5 was in, but I don't think he was being critical of 6 anyone. 7 Q: Do you recall the Premier commenting 8 on how the people got into the Park; the occupiers? 9 A: How they got in? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I don't think so. 12 Q: Did anyone raise the issue of the 13 control of the police by the Government? 14 A: No I don't think that was an issue. 15 I think that was understood by -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: If it wasn't understood, it certainly 18 didn't raise its head as a possibility. 19 Q: And when you say it was understood; 20 that the politicians present understood that they could 21 not direct the police? 22 A: That was my understanding. 23 Q: And how do you think that others -- 24 on what basis do you say others understood that as well? 25 A: Essentially because Kathryn Hunt had
1481 advised and -- and ensured that the Chiefs of Staff or 2 executive assistants to the Ministers were aware of -- of 3 that and -- and also ensured, as I recall, that they had 4 advised their respective Ministers. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Excuse me for a minute. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: What do you recall of -- that the 13 Premier said with respect to the people getting into the 14 Park? 15 A: I don't recall him making comments 16 about people getting into the Park. 17 Q: Okay. Did the Premier express a 18 concern that people had gotten into the Park? 19 A: He may have, but again, I don't 20 recall. 21 Q: Was it -- was the meeting advised 22 that the Park was closed for the season? 23 A: I believe it was. I should have 24 mentioned earlier, too, which I neglected to mention, 25 there was some discussion about the claim of a burial
1491 site being in the Park. 2 Q: And what was the discussion about a 3 burial site being in the Park? 4 A: There was an indication from the 5 Attorney General's office, through ONAS, that there was 6 no merit to that -- that suggestion. 7 Q: Okay. So if we could just step back 8 for a minute. Can you -- can you tell us who raised the 9 issue of the burial ground and what they said, Mr. 10 Runciman? 11 A: I believe it was the Attorney General 12 who that -- it came up during the discussion that this 13 was -- the occupiers were contending that there was a 14 burial site on the grounds in the Park and that was the 15 rationale for the -- for the occupation. 16 And I believe it was the Attorney General, 17 it may have been supported by the Deputy, I -- I'm not 18 sure who was pointing out that ONAS had indicated that 19 there was no merit to the -- to that claim. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall a discussion 21 between Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Fox after the Premier had 22 left the meeting? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: At any time? 25 A: No.
1501 Q: Did you see the occupation of the 2 Park as a test of the Government? 3 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't view it as a 4 -- as a test of the government. I had a different view 5 of it. I guess I felt it was a -- an effort to draw 6 attention to the claims related to the -- the Federal 7 property and the frustrations surrounding that. 8 Q: And so your -- it was your view that 9 the occupiers were trying to gain -- get attention to 10 their claim with respect to the Ipperwa -- Camp 11 Ipperwash? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And the -- do you -- but did you -- 14 do you recall Mr. Harris, Mr. Hodgson or Mr. Harnick 15 indicating that the occupation was a test to the 16 Government? 17 A: No, I do not. 18 Q: And after the Cabinet meeting -- I 19 mean, the dining room meeting, what did you do? 20 A: Returned to my office. I don't 21 believe there was anymore involvement with the issue that 22 day. 23 Q: And if I could ask you to turn please 24 to... 25
1511 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Tab 34 -- excuse me, 35. This is a 4 copy of Exhibit P-594, Inquiry Document 2001053. And at 5 Tab 36 is a copy of Exhibit P-930, Inquiry Document 6 1011585. 7 The two (2) documents are identical except 8 on the first document it's the MSGCS issue notes stroked 9 out. It says, "Not circulated" and at the bottom 10 "Information Only." 11 And do you recall seeing either of these 12 documents P-594 or P-930 on September the 6th? 13 A: I don't recall. I suspect I would 14 have seen P-930. P-954 I doubt that I would have seen a 15 note with -- with this -- 16 Q: With the handwriting on it? 17 A: -- with the handwriting on it, no. 18 Q: And does Exhibit P-930 -- do you 19 agree with the statements in that document with respect 20 to the role of the Minister regarding the OPP? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: And Ms. Dougall was a member of the 23 Legal Services Branch of the Ministry of the Solicitor 24 General? 25 A: She was the head of the branch.
1521 Q: And did -- do you know why Exhibit P- 2 930 was created? 3 A: It may have been to clarify and to 4 provide me with a -- a note for future reference. I'm 5 not sure that it was circulated beyond my office but it 6 certainly could have been for the information of others 7 in my office as well. 8 Q: And -- but you -- do you -- do you 9 have any information, actual information as to what 10 happened to Exhibit P-930? 11 A: No. No actual information. I -- 12 again, I'm assuming that this would have been provided me 13 given the events that were occurring that I -- this would 14 have been placed in my hands. 15 Q: Great. Perhaps it would be a good 16 time for the afternoon break? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 18 so. We'll take a break now. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 3:28 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 3:46 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1531 resumed, please be seated. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Mr. Runciman, if I could step back to 5 the dining room meeting for a moment. Mr. Fox testified 6 that when -- at the dining room meeting that he had -- he 7 gave an update, he, Mr. Fox, and then he said: 8 "The Premier made comments with respect 9 to the police operations thus far. He 10 indicated, certainly in my opinion, 11 that he was displeased that the matter 12 had gone on as long as it had and that 13 actions hadn't been taken and some 14 other comments and left the room." 15 And then he -- he goes on to say -- then a 16 question, some other comments: 17 "I'm sorry, I'm not hearing you. 18 A: Other -- he made some other 19 comments that I really couldn't put in 20 context and he left. 21 And then a question: 22 "All right. Now, can you recall more, 23 particularly, what comments the Premier 24 reportedly made which led you to view 25 that he was concerned that the police
1541 operation had gone on too long? 2 A: There was comments with respect, 3 you know, why it had gone on so long 4 and that it would likely come out in an 5 inquiry of some form." 6 Do you recall the Premier making a comment 7 about an inquiry of some form? 8 A: No, I don't. No. 9 Q: Or for the matter -- the -- the 10 matter having gone on for so long? 11 A: He may well have said something about 12 it going on and the fact that, you know, he was -- he was 13 certainly, obviously, concerned and so I -- it may well 14 have been one of his comments. 15 Q: Okay. And on September 6th, after 16 the meeting, what, if anything, was your department, your 17 Ministry to do with respect to the issue of an injunction 18 or the legal proceedings? 19 A: I don't believe we had any -- any 20 role. 21 Q: And on September 6th, did you give 22 any instructions to the Commissioner of the OPP, the -- 23 either Deputy Commissioner Boose or Deputy Commissioner 24 Nagel, Chief Superintendent Coles, Inspector Fox, 25 Inspector Carson, Superintendent Parkin with respect to
1551 any actions they should take with respect to the 2 operation -- occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: No, I did not, either directly or 4 indirectly. 5 Q: And do you recall speaking to Deputy 6 Commissioner O'Grady on September the 6th -- I mean 7 Commissioner O'Grady on September the 6th? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: Did you speak to John Carson -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- on September the 6th? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: Did you speak to Chief Superintendent 14 Coles on September the 6th? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you speak to Superintendent 17 Parkin on September the 6th? 18 A: No. No. 19 Q: Did you speak to Deputy Commissioner 20 Boose? 21 A: I did not. 22 Q: Did you speak to Deputy Commissioner 23 Nagel? 24 A: No. 25 Q: I think I asked you about Chief
1561 Superintendent Coles? 2 A: You did. 3 Q: And you had -- did not speak to him? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you give any instructions to any 6 of your aides to relay instructions to members of the OPP 7 on September the 6th? 8 A: I did not. 9 Q: Did you give instructions to your 10 Deputy Minister or any other civil servant to relay 11 instructions to the Ontario Provincial Police? 12 A: No. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Did you have any discussions about 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park with Ms. Hunt after the dining 18 room meeting? 19 A: Probably, but I can't recall the 20 specifics. We probably drove back to the office 21 together. It's about a ten (10) minute drive. I -- I 22 suspect we discussed what had occurred at the meeting but 23 I can't recall the details. 24 Q: And the Solicitor General's office, 25 your office, was at the corner of Bloor and Church --
1571 Bloor and Church at the time? 2 A: That's right, it was. 3 Q: 400 Bloor I think. 4 A: I can't recall the specific address. 5 Q: But it's at -- 6 A: The corner of Bloor and Church, 7 that's right. 8 Q: And at Tab... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: ...40 is a part of Exhibit P-509, 13 Inquiry Document 1012252, the meeting notes of the IMC 14 meeting held on September the 6th, 1995. And did you see 15 these minutes on September 6th or shortly thereafter? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: And at Tab -- page 2 paragraph 3 18 under Minister's Directions -- Directives under SGC, it 19 says: 20 "As a matter of protocol, the SGC does 21 not involve itself in the day to day 22 operations of the OPP. The OPP will 23 exercise it's discretion regarding how 24 to proceed in removing the Stoney 25 Pointers from the Park and the laying
1581 of appropriate charges." 2 And was that the position that you took on 3 September the 6th? 4 A: It was. 5 Q: And did you have any discussions on 6 September the 6th with Mr. Beaubien? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you instruct any of your staff to 9 speak to Mr. Beaubien? 10 A: I did not. 11 Q: And please turn to Tab 48. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: It's a copy of Exhibit P-952, Inquiry 16 Document 1006196. It's a letter from Mr. Beaubien to Mr. 17 King at the Office of the Premier. Do you -- did you 18 know Mr. King in 1995? 19 A: I did. 20 Q: And do you know what his title was in 21 1995? 22 A: I think he -- I think he was the 23 caucus liaison. 24 Q: And what was your understanding of 25 the role of the caucus liaison?
1591 A: To keep the Premier's office informed 2 of concerns and issues that backbench MPP's had. 3 Q: And -- and did it go the other way as 4 well, to keep backbenchers informed of issues -- to 5 respond to backbenchers' issues? 6 A: If they were riding issues it 7 probably would. If they were broader issues, it's 8 probably something the Premier would comment on himself 9 at a -- at a caucus meeting. 10 Q: And did you -- do you recall 11 receiving -- whether you received a copy of P-1 -- P-952? 12 If you look at the fourth page of the letter that's 13 enclosed with the letter from Mr. Beaubien, it's shown as 14 copies having been sent to Mr. Harris, yourself, Mr. 15 Harnick, and Mr. Hodgson. 16 A: I don't recall seeing this. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Excuse me. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Could you turn to Tab 50, please?
1601 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This is a copy of Exhibit P-469. I 4 believe it's Inquiry Document 1000016. And this is a 5 transcript, Mr. Runciman, of a telephone conversation 6 between Inspector Dale Linton on September the 6th, 1995 7 and Superintendent Parkin. 8 Inspector Linton was at the command post 9 in Forest and Inspector Parkin was, I believe, in London. 10 And at page 12... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Page 12? 15 Q: It's at the top of the page. You'll 16 see the page numbered at the top of the page. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And it starts at the bottom, and Mr. 19 Parkin's talking about information with respect to -- 20 from the MNR that Mr. Kobayashi reported to the MNR. 21 Then Mr. Parkin says: 22 "Then it got -- the next thing it was 23 sitting in the Deputy Solicitor 24 General's office, so there was concern 25 that, you know, maybe we weren't doing
1611 the right thing. 2 Linton: Marcel Beaubien was in 3 tonight. He had talked to the 4 Solicitor General. 5 Parkin: Yeah. 6 Linton: And the Attorney General. 7 They were comfortable, but he -- 8 Parkin: Well, that's right. Like we 9 -- we called the Commissioner tonight. 10 Linton: Yeah. 11 Parkin: And he had been talking to 12 Runciman and that -- and they were more 13 than pleased with what the OPP was 14 doing, so there's no problem there. 15 What happened, though, by that -- by 16 that information about the automatic 17 weapons going up the MNR side, they 18 went from that -- that regular type of 19 injunction to the emergency type which, 20 you know, isn't really in our favour." 21 Does that assist you with respect to 22 whether or not your spoke to Mr. Beaubien or Mr. -- 23 Commissioner O'Grady? 24 A: What's -- what's the date on this? 25 Q: This is September the 6th.
1621 A: 6th. 2 Q: At 21:41 hours -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: So, that's at 9:41 on the evening of 5 September the 6th. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: It's a conversation between 8 Superintendent Parkin and Dale Linton. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, Mr. O'Grady -- Commissioner 13 O'Grady -- ex-Commissioner O'Grady had testified that he 14 did not have a conversation with you, just so that you 15 understand that. 16 A: No, I was going to say that I -- I 17 didn't have a conversation with Beaubien and if I had a 18 conversation with the Commissioner, it would have been at 19 the luncheon meeting that we'd had, and certainly not on 20 the 6th. 21 There was never a telephone conversation. 22 Q: The luncheon meeting -- the meeting - 23 - the meeting of August 28th? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: So, you did not have a conversation
1631 with him on either September the 5th -- telephone 2 conversation on September the 5th or September the 6th? 3 A: I did not, nor with Mr. Beaubien. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: On September the 6th, from what you 8 had been told by -- the information you had been provided 9 by either Ms. Hunt or at the dining room meeting, did you 10 have any criticism of how the OPP were dealing with the 11 matter? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, on -- how did you learn about 14 the death of Mr. George? 15 A: Again, I think I was at home in the - 16 - in the riding and contacted, again, by Kathryn Hunt. I 17 believe that was how it happened. 18 Q: And do you recall what she said 19 happened? 20 A: I think she indicated that there was 21 a confrontation and that a bus had run at the police and 22 -- and that someone had been shot in the situation and 23 had passed away. 24 Q: And were you back -- you said you 25 were back -- do you believe you were back in the riding
1641 in Brockville? 2 A: I believe I was, yes. 3 Q: And did you then return to Toronto? 4 A: I can't recall the, you know, what -- 5 the exact timing. I tend to get confused with the 6 occupation and the -- and the shooting with respect to 7 locations and notification. So I can't -- I can't really 8 recall. 9 Q: Do you recall if Ms. -- do you recall 10 if Ms. Hunt called you during the evening or the next 11 morning? Like during the night as opposed to... 12 A: No, I can't recall specifically. I 13 mean she would have called me as quickly as she heard 14 about it. She wouldn't delay, I don't think, on 15 something like that. 16 Q: And were you in your riding or do you 17 -- do you know? 18 A: No, as I said I don't know. If -- if 19 you -- if I had the specific date then it might be 20 helpful but... 21 Q: Well, it would be September the 7th. 22 A: 7th, yeah. I -- 23 Q: The incident took place -- 24 A: In the evening. 25 Q: -- at around eleven o'clock of the
1651 evening of September the 6th. 2 A: Yeah. It's possible I'd gone back to 3 my riding following, but I doubt it, unless there was 4 some event or meeting that I had to attend. So I can't 5 be specific about whether I was in the riding or not. 6 If it was on -- the other occurrence was 7 on a weekend so I -- I think you said the Labour Day 8 weekend and I would have been in my riding on the Labour 9 Day weekend, but in mid week, the first few weeks the 10 Government was in office I suspect I would have been in 11 Toronto. 12 Q: And at Tab 55 there's a copy of 13 Exhibit P-596, Inquiry Document 1011812. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And if you could then, as well, turn 18 to Exhibit -- Tab, excuse me, 59, which is a press 19 release. 20 Firstly, did you see Exhibit P-596 on 21 September 7th? 22 A: I believe so. 23 Q: And the press release that appears at 24 Tab 59, Inquiry Document 1001152 was a press release 25 issued under your instructions?
1661 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 3 the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-988, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-988: Document Number 1001152. 7 News Release from MSGCS Re. 8 Incident at Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park, Sept. 10 07/'95. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at Tab 56 there's a document. 14 It's Inquiry Document 1011599, draft September 7, 1995, 15 entitled, MAG/MSGS. Is this the document that you saw on 16 September the 7th? 17 A: I believe so. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And what were you advised, and by 22 whom, as to the injunction that was obtained on the 23 morning of -- on September the 7th? 24 A: I don't recall being advised 25 specifically. If I had been, it, in all likelihood,
1671 would have been Ms. Hunt advising me. 2 Q: At the time, did you see copy -- a 3 copy of the injunction? 4 A: No. 5 Q: At any time since, have you seen a 6 copy of the injunction? 7 A: No, I haven't. 8 Q: And... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Perhaps we could -- we should mark 13 Exhibit 1011599 as the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-989, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-989: Document Number 1011599. 17 Draft Sept. 07/'95. 18 MAG/MSGCS Minister's 19 Positioning and Questions and 20 Answers, MSGCS. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: The -- at Tab 57, there's a copy of 24 Exhibit P-661, Inquiry document 3000002, and had you seen 25 this document on September 7th or September 8th?
1681 A: I may have, but I don't recall seeing 2 it. 3 Q: And it's a document that, on page 2, 4 sets out positioning -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Sets up the core working group. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Does that assist you? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Again, it -- it -- since it 15 references me personally and my executive assistant, it's 16 quite possible that I had a copy of this. 17 Q: There was a -- we've heard evidence 18 that there was a meeting at -- in the afternoon of 19 September the 7th in -- actually in your Boardroom with 20 respect to this matter, attended by, I believe, Mr. 21 Harnick, Mr. Hodgson and the deputies, as well as some 22 other individuals. 23 Do you recall that meeting? 24 A: No, I don't. 25
1691 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, at Tab 60, there's a memo from 4 Marie Corbold to the PC Caucus members. It's Inquiry 5 document 12000073 with a news release attached, and a 6 chronology of events attached. 7 Did you receive a copy of this document? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you receive this as a member 10 of the caucus or how did it come to you? The whole 11 package, did you receive Ms. Corbold's memorandum? 12 A: No, I -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- don't believe so. I think it 15 would have been a view within my own office that we would 16 advise the members of caucus, provide this to them. It 17 wouldn't have been circulated to them as a matter of 18 course. 19 Q: And so when you -- you saw the OPP 20 news release dated September 7, and did you see the 21 chronology of events incident at Ipperwash Provincial 22 Park? 23 A: This was part of the press release? 24 Q: Well we got it as -- I don't know. 25 A: I kind of doubt that it was part of
1701 the press release. 2 Q: I -- 3 A: Yes -- no, I suspect I did see a 4 chronology, yeah. 5 Q: Perhaps we could -- perha -- do you 6 recall or you're making an assumption, Mr. Runciman? 7 A: With respect to the chronology? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I feel quite confident that I would 10 have been provided with this at some point. 11 Q: Perhaps we could mark that Document 12 1200073 as the next exhibit, but understanding that Mr. 13 Runciman's referring to both -- to the news release and 14 to the chronology of events incident at Ipperwash 15 Provincial Park and not the front page. 16 Perhaps what we could do is just simply 17 mark the last four (4) pages as the exhibit without the 18 cover page. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-990, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-990: Document Number 12000073 22 Memorandum to PC Caucus 23 Members from Marnie Corbold. 24 Attaching OPP Press Release, 25 Sept. 07/'95.
1711 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: The chronology appears to have come 4 from the OPP media relations. You see at the top it 5 refers -- there's a -- a header on the first page of the 6 chronology then refers to OPP media relations? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: But you don't know if it was part of 9 the news release when you saw it or not? 10 A: No, I don't. I -- I doubt it was but 11 it's possible. 12 Q: Now, there was a request for 13 assistance from the Canadian Government; is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- can you tell us how it 16 came to your attention that a request that the Ontario 17 Provincial Police wanted to make a request for assistance 18 to the Canadian Government? 19 A: The Deputy approached me indicating 20 that she'd been contacted by Commissioner O'Grady and 21 that this was a policy or protocol that was in place that 22 any request for assistance or support or equipment from 23 the Federal Government had to flow through our office. 24 Q: Okay. And at Tab 52 there's a letter 25 dated September 7, 1995. It's Inquiry Document 1001558,
1721 Exhibit P-599. It's signed on page 2, Robert -- R. W. 2 Runciman; is that your signature, sir? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is this a letter that you sent to 5 Mr. Gray? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in the second paragraph of the 8 letter it says: 9 "The OPP Commissioner Thomas B. O'Grady 10 has asked that I seek your assistance 11 to arrange an agreement for the loan or 12 lease of this type of equipment 13 referring to armoured personnel 14 carriers on an as needed basis. 15 The OPP will adhere to any restrictions 16 required including covering all DND 17 identification on vehicles used for 18 police purposes. The OPP will provide 19 experienced vehicle operators who are 20 trained to DND standards." 21 And that was the request that you were 22 making of the Federal Government? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And then at Tab 53, there's a second 25 letter from you to Mr. Gray, it's Inquiry Document
1731 2001370. And that's your signature, sir? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it refers to the, earlier today-- 4 "Earlier today I requested your 5 assistance in arranging the Department 6 of National Defence assistance to 7 Ontario Provincial Police with respect 8 to vehicles." 9 And was this letter -- second letter sent 10 to Mr. Gray? 11 A: I believe it was. 12 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 13 the next exhibit, sir. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-991. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-991: Document Number 2001370. 17 Letter from Robert Runciman 18 to Herb Gray, Solicitor 19 General of Canada, Sept. 20 07/'95. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And at Tab 61, a copy of a letter to 24 you, it's Exhibit P-931, Inquiry Document 1001561 and -- 25 about a letter you received from Mr. Gray?
1741 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: Yes, it is, yes. 4 Q: And at Tab 83, there's a letter dated 5 September 19, 1995, it's Inquiry Document 1001204, 6 Exhibit P-932. And is that a letter that you -- does 7 your signature appear on that letter? 8 A: Yes, although I -- I think I've 9 questioned in the past whether I actually signed this or 10 it was signed by a signature machine. 11 Q: But it was signed and sent under your 12 -- with your authority? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that's a request for certain 15 equipment to be provided? 16 A: Yes, that's right. 17 Q: As listed on the attached page? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And at Tab 87 you received the 20 response, it's Inquiry Document 1001563 Exhibit P-933 21 from Mr. Gray. 22 Is that correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And in this letter he's saying that 25 he understands that the equipment's not needed, but if it
1751 is that -- if a further request was made, that it would 2 be expedited? 3 A: Right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Tab 62 is a copy of Inquiry Document 8 2001052, Exhibit P-601. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did you see this on or about 11 September 8th, 1995? 12 A: I believe so. 13 Q: And were you made aware, on September 14 the 8th, that the representatives of lawyers for the 15 Ministry of the Attorney General appeared in court in 16 London with respect to the injunction? 17 A: I may have been, but I don't recall 18 specifically. 19 Q: And that the request was to change 20 the requirement in the injunction from the -- with 21 respect to the service of the papers to delete the 22 dropping from the helicopter? 23 A: It rings a bell, but I can't, with 24 any confidence, say that I was aware of it. 25 Q: And you can take it from me that
1761 that's what happened, but did you participate in any of 2 those discussions relating to that injunction? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And in getting the second injunction? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And what did you do on September 8th 7 with respect to the events at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 8 A: What did I do, specifically? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I don't recall that we did anything. 11 Q: And did you -- do you recall having a 12 telephone call with certain leaders of the First Nations 13 community on September 8th? 14 A: I recall having a conference call. 15 I'm not sure about the date, but I do recall having the 16 conversation. 17 Q: And at Tab 65, there's a draft of a 18 conference call with the First Nations leaders that -- 19 it's dated on -- the date on it is June 8, 1995, but it 20 should be September 8th, 1995. 21 And do you recognize this document? It's 22 Inquiry document 1000986. 23 A: I recognize the conversation. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: Not so much the document.
1771 Q: Was this a document created by your 2 staff as a result of the conversation, as far as you can 3 recall? 4 A: I don't -- I don't recall. I suspect 5 it was. 6 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 7 as the next exhibit. I don't think it's been marked. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-992, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-992: Document number 1000986. 11 Transcript: Conference call 12 with First Nation Leaders and 13 Robert Runciman (no date). 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And the bottom of -- the participants 17 in the call are listed as Chief Tom Bressette. Had you 18 met Chief Bressette, who was the chief of the Kettle and 19 Stony Point First Nation? 20 A: I don't believe so. 21 Q: And Chief -- Grand Chief Joe Hare of 22 the Union of Ontario Indians; had you met Mr. Hare? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And Mr. Gordon Peters, the regional 25 chief for the Chiefs of Ontario; had you met Mr. Peters?
1781 A: No, I hadn't. 2 Q: And Chief Ovide Mercredi, the 3 National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations; had you 4 met Mr. -- Chief Mercredi before this? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And how did you come to be the person 7 that was having this telephone call? 8 A: I think there was a -- a request to 9 meet with the Premier and a decision was taken, 10 initially, that we would deal with the request through a 11 conference call and that I would represent the Government 12 in the conference call. 13 I don't know the thinking behind it. It 14 was a decision essentially made by the Premier's office. 15 We were asked to -- to conduct the -- the call and for me 16 to represent the Government. 17 Q: And at the very last tab of the book 18 in front of you, Tab 97, there's a copy of Inquiry 19 document 1001147, it's Exhibit P-934. And this was a 20 document that Ms. Hunt spoke to and Ms. Hunt indicated 21 that she was the one who set up the conference call and 22 spoke to the individuals on the conference call. 23 Had -- prior to getting ready for this 24 Inquiry, had you seen this document before? 25 A: I believe I have. I certainly
1791 believe, in terms of the key messages, that I was a party 2 to the key messages that were to be delivered during the 3 course of the conversation. 4 Q: And were the messages developed by 5 your office or by the Premier's office or someone else 6 and transmitted to you? 7 A: I think, essentially, it was a joint 8 effort, I believe. 9 I, again, assume that they may have been 10 prepared by the Solicitor General's office and reviewed 11 by the Premier's office, but again, I'm not sure of, you 12 know, how that process evolved. 13 Q: And at the bottom of page -- the 14 first page, it's attributed to you. 15 "Premier has made it clear that he 16 will..." 17 And this is back, excuse me, at Tab 65. 18 I'm jumping ahead of myself, Mr. Runciman. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Exhibit P-992. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: "Premier has made it clear that he 23 will not attend the meeting until the 24 occupation of the Provincial Park is 25 resolved."
1801 The -- do you recall making that statement 2 on the call? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And had you spoken to the Premier 5 about this? How did this message get to you? 6 A: Indirectly, through the Premier's 7 staff, to my staff, to me. 8 Q: Okay. And on September 7th or 9 September 8th, did you speak directly to Mr. Harris with 10 respect to the events at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And the -- then there's a reference 13 on the third page. Mr. -- Chief Bressette is reported as 14 saying: 15 "I feel the injunction is unnecessary. 16 Dropping it from a helicopter is an 17 insult. The Minister, the Government 18 shares our concern --" 19 A: It should be, Your concern, I guess. 20 Q: "...your concern. Efforts are 21 underway to change that condition." 22 And do you recall that having been part of 23 the conversation? 24 A: No, I don't, no. 25 Q: That you would have agreed, that if
1811 it's part of the transcript, that it did take place? 2 A: Yes, I must have been advised that 3 that was what was happening. 4 Q: And at Tab 66 there's a letter, it's 5 dated September the 6th, 1995 -- it's September the 8th, 6 excuse me, 1995 and it's from RoseAnne Archibald of the 7 Mushkegowuk Council, Moose Factory, Ontario, and it 8 appears to have been faxed -- it's difficult to read, but 9 September 8th, 1995 at 2:31 in the afternoon. 10 Do you recall receiving this letter? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: And in the third paragraph it -- 13 there's a statement: 14 "I have heard that the Premier of 15 Ontario utterly -- allegedly uttered 16 the following upon hearing about the 17 stand-off in Ipperwash Provincial Park, 18 Get those [and then a bunch of letters] 19 Indians out of the Park even if you 20 have to draw weapons [excuse me] out of 21 there even if you have to draw 22 weapons." 23 The -- did -- did anyone raise this topic 24 with you, the -- the letter that's been raised by Ms. 25 Archibald, in this letter, on September 8th or the days
1821 following? 2 A: I -- I can't recall, to be quite 3 honest with you, whether it was raised with me or not. I 4 -- given her position, I suspect it was raised with me 5 and we tried to respond. 6 Q: And do you know if there was a 7 response? 8 A: I can only assume there was a 9 response. I don't know for a fact. 10 Q: Do -- do you make -- did you make any 11 inquiries through -- either directly yourself or through 12 your staff to the Premier and his staff as to whether or 13 not a statement such as this had been made by him? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Why not? 16 A: Why not? 17 Q: You'd agree with me it's a serious 18 charge that's being levelled against the Premier? 19 A: It is a serious charge, there's no 20 question about that. I have no answer for why not? I 21 guess we simply didn't accept it as fact. 22 Q: And on September the 12th you 23 travelled to Petrolia? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And how was that meeting arranged?
1831 A: I think it was arranged through the 2 local MPP Mr. Beaubien -- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: -- for me to travel there and meet 5 with the -- some local officials and concerned citizens. 6 Q: And... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Oh, excuse me. I should have marked 11 Tab 66, Inquiry Document 1001231 as an exhibit. It's a 12 letter dated September 8th. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-993, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-993: Document number 1001231 . 16 Letter from RoseAnne 17 Archibald, Chairperson, 18 Mushkegowuk Council, to 19 Robert Runciman, Sept. 20 08/'95. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And what was the purpose of the 24 meeting? 25 A: Really as I recall, to listen to
1841 their concerns. I think there were some OPP officers 2 present. Inspector Fox accompanied me along with Mr. 3 Simzer, and I -- I believe it was essentially a -- a 4 conversational kind of meeting where the Mayor and others 5 expressed their concerns of some of the property owners 6 about their properties. 7 And we indicated that we were very much 8 aware of their concerns, that the MPP was keeping us 9 apprised, that we were doing what we could to calm the 10 waters, to ensure that the situation was resolved, and 11 that they could return to their properties at an 12 appropriate time and that it was essentially an effort to 13 calm the waters. 14 Q: And at Tab 69 there's a press 15 releases; it's Inquiry Document 1001565. And was that a 16 press release issued by your Ministry on -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- September the 12th? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: That -- that's the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-994, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-994: Document Number 1001565. News 24 Release from MSGCS Re. 25 Runciman meets with Ipperwash
1851 area leaders, residents, Sept. 2 12/'95. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And at Tab 71, there's a copy of 6 Exhibit P-689, Inquiry Document 1003551. 7 A: What -- what tab number was that? 8 Q: Tab 71, Mr. Runciman. 9 A: All right. 10 Q: And it's a fax from a Mr. McCaslin at 11 -- in the Ministry of the Solicitor General and 12 Correctional Services to Mr. Lazor with some meeting 13 notes attached. 14 And did you have a member of your staff 15 take notes with respect to the meeting? 16 A: I don't believe so. But, I think the 17 only staff that was with me, in the formal sense, was Mr. 18 Simzer. Now there may have been someone from the 19 Ministry but -- 20 Q: Had you, prior to getting ready for 21 the Inquiry, had you seen this document before? 22 A: I don't recall looking at this 23 document. 24 Q: And I take it that there was a 25 meeting in Petrolia with the residents and civic leaders
1861 of Forest, Bosanquet, Grand Bend and then a subsequent 2 meeting with the residents; is that correct? 3 A: Is this -- is this the same meeting 4 that I attended? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And if you want to, if you turn back 8 to your press release at Tab 69, sir, it indicates that: 9 "Mr. Runciman met in Petrolia this 10 afternoon with civic leaders and 11 residents of several communities 12 affected by the ongoing occupation of 13 Ipperwash Provincial Park." 14 Then two (2) paragraphs down: 15 "Mr. Runciman later met with some of 16 the Park area residents who left their 17 houses after the occupation started." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: So, that there were two (2) meetings 20 on that day? 21 A: I guess so. I personally don't 22 recall two (2) meetings, but there must have been. I 23 think it was in the same location. I don't believe we 24 went to two (2) separate locations. 25 Q: And back -- just to assist you with
1871 respect to Tab 71, one of the persons listed as being at 2 the meeting in addition to Ron Fox, if you look at the 3 third page in, sir, the Petrolia meeting, there was a Mr. 4 Kirk Smith, Director of Communications, MSGCS. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it appears that that document was 7 created by Mr. Smith -- 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: -- as well as the next document. Do 10 -- do you recall who Mr. Smith was? 11 A: I recall Kirk Smith (phonetic) but I 12 don't recall him being with us. 13 Q: That day? 14 A: He -- he may well have come on his 15 own, I think, in the car. There was just -- the car, 16 there was Beaubien and myself and Simzer. 17 Q: And Fox, you mean. 18 A: What did I say? 19 Q: You said Simzer. 20 A: Simzer, Fox and myself. 21 Q: Oh -- 22 A: Three (3) of us in the car. 23 Q: You said Beaubien, so. 24 A: Sorry. 25 Q: And -- but Mr. Smith is listed as a
1881 participant and then Terry -- was Terry Simzer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: When did you learn that the Federal 4 Government had located papers from 1937, correspondence 5 relating to the potential of burial -- a burial site 6 being in the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 7 A: I can't recall. 8 Q: And was it on or about, or was it on 9 September 13th? 10 A: It was certainly after the shooting. 11 Q: Did you -- do you recall, were you 12 ever provided with copies of those documents? Did you 13 ever seen them? 14 A: I don't believe so. 15 Q: And at Tab 75, well before I... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: What was your reaction to the news 20 that the -- Indian and Northern Affairs had located 21 documents or correspondence from -- between the 22 Government of Ontario and the Government of Canada with 23 respect to a burial site in the Ipperwash Provincial 24 Park? 25 A: I think generally there was -- people
1891 were concerned about the timing. 2 Q: And when you say, "concerned about 3 the timing" -- 4 A: Well, I think that it if was -- you 5 know, materials of that nature. I know there had been a 6 search of the site at some point and earlier that 7 provided us with the assurances that there was no 8 validity to that kind of claim and that was reinforced 9 through -- through ONAS. 10 So, that after the occupation and the 11 shooting, and the Federal Government provides us that 12 kind of information, I think there was some concern about 13 the -- the way it was handled by the Federal Government. 14 And I think perhaps, you know, amongst 15 some folks a little bit of resentment about the fact that 16 if they'd dealt with the situation with respect to the 17 camp that the Ipperwash Park incident never would have 18 occurred. 19 Q: And did you have anything to do with 20 dealing with the Federal Government over the issue of the 21 burial ground? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: And at Tab 74, there's a document, 24 Crisis Management Strategy: Ipperwash Provincial Park 25 occupation, Draft 2.
1901 And there are further drafts, but this 2 document, Inquiry Document 1001201, is this the document 3 that -- had you seen this document as a draft or would 4 you have seen a later document? 5 Do you recall seeing this document, sir? 6 A: I -- I don't recall. It may not have 7 been placed in front of me prior to being finalised. It 8 would -- I would suspect it would have involved Marnie 9 Corbold and who was my policy advisor and Ms. Hunt, 10 perhaps at the draft stage. 11 Q: Okay. And at Tab 75, there's a 12 letter dated September 13th, 1995 addressed to you, it's 13 Inquiry Document 3001141, from the Ontario Chiefs of -- 14 Association of Chiefs of Police. And did you receive 15 this document, sir? 16 There is -- there's a stamp, Ministry of 17 the Solicitor General and Correctional Services, 18 September 15, 1995. 19 A: I'm just trying to read it. I'm sure 20 I received it. I'm just trying to refresh my memory. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Oh, okay. I -- I have no doubt I -- 25 I received it.
1911 Q: Okay. Perhaps that could be marked 2 the next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-995, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-995: Document Number 3001141 . 6 Letter from Kelvin McAlpine, 7 President, Ontario Association 8 of Chiefs of Police, to Robert 9 Runciman, Sept. 13/'95. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And did you respond to this letter? 13 A: Again, I have to assume that we would 14 respond to the -- to the -- the OACP. I know -- I can't 15 recall when we met with them initially but -- whether we 16 met with them in the first six (6) or seven (7) weeks of 17 being in government or -- or after that, and this was 18 part of a -- a meeting agenda. I can't recall the 19 details, but I have no doubt we responded. 20 Q: Okay. And at Tab 79 there's a copy 21 of Exhibit P-47, Inquiry Document 1010496, Memorandum of 22 Understanding Between the First Nation People at Stoney 23 and the Ontario Provincial Police. 24 And on the third page it's signed by Chief 25 Superintendent Coles on September 17th, 1995 on behalf
1921 the Ontario Provincial Police. 2 In September 1995, were you provided with 3 a copy of this document? 4 A: I can't remember being provided with 5 a copy. 6 Q: Were you advised that -- of the 7 existence of this document back in September of 1995? 8 A: I have to believe that I was. 9 Q: And -- okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: At Tab 82, there's a copy of Inquiry 14 Document 2000457 addressed to you from Ron Fox/B. Taylor 15 and it's September 19, 1995. There are some notes and a 16 -- a typed, "Ipperwash update," and some notes. 17 Did you receive this, a copy of this 18 document, Mr. Runciman? Or what would have happened to a 19 document like this that came into your office? 20 A: I think, since it was directed to my 21 attention and from Mr. Fox and Ms. Taylor, that it would 22 be brought to my attention. 23 Q: And do you recall seeing this? 24 A: Not the specifics of it. I -- I'm 25 sure that I was provided with an update.
1931 Q: And -- and it says on page 2: 2 "Minister must present Cabinet." 3 Do you see that in handwritten that -- no, 4 go back one (1) page, sir. 5 A: Back one (1) page? 6 Q: Page 2 of the document. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: And then there's the update attached 9 to it. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Were you up -- responsible for 12 keeping the Cabinet informed as to what was happening at 13 Ipperwash? 14 A: I think that was probably an 15 assumption that it may be raised in terms of the 16 situation, so that I should have an update, so that it 17 could have been requested by -- by Ms. Hunt through -- 18 through Barb Taylor, for example, that we have an update 19 so that if the -- if the issue -- the question was asked 20 at the Cabinet meeting I would be able to provide a -- a 21 report on the current situation from a policing 22 perspective. 23 Q: And do you recall if, in the -- on 24 September -- after September -- on September 19th, or 25 after September 19th, you did give an update to Cabinet
1941 or were called upon to give an update to Cabinet with 2 respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: I don't recall. I imagine, 4 certainly, in the aftermath of the shooting, that it was 5 discussed and, you know, for how long it was raised as an 6 issue at Cabinet, I -- can't -- I can't really begin to 7 speculate. 8 I -- but I think, certainly, the week or 9 two (2) following the shooting, there was continuing 10 concern about the situation. So that, in all likelihood, 11 it was a subject of -- of some discussion. 12 Q: And at Tab 84, there's a document 13 that was marked Exhibit P-698, Inquiry Document 1012428. 14 And it's a document that was created, as we understand 15 it, with respect to the Deputy Ministers and it's dated 16 September 20th, 1995. 17 Did you -- have you seen this document 18 before, sir? 19 A: I don't recall seeing it, but it 20 doesn't mean I didn't. 21 Q: But today you have no recollection of 22 seeing it? 23 A: No, no I don't. 24 Q: Commissioner, Ms. Vella reminds me I 25 didn't mark Exhibit -- as an exhibit, Inquiry Document
1951 2000457. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Which tab? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's Tab 82. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-996, Your Honour. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's the letter 6 -- or a fax cover sheet with attached pages from Ron 7 Fox/B. Taylor to Bob Runciman, September 19, 1995. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-996: Document Number 2000457. Fax 10 from Ron Fox to Robert 11 Runciman Re. Ipperwash 12 Update, Sept. 19/'95. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: At Tab 86, copy of Inquiry Document 16 300064, Exhibit P-711, it's entitled, Ipperwash Crisis 17 Management Interim Evaluation Report, prepared by the 18 Communications Branch and Ministry Solicitor General on 19 Correctional Services and it's dated September 26th, 20 1995. 21 Did you receive a copy of this document, 22 sir? 23 A: I don't believe so. 24 Q: Have you seen this document before? 25 A: I don't believe so.
1961 Q: And the balance of the fall of 1995, 2 what role did you play with respect to Ipperwash 3 Provincial Park? 4 A: The Park itself, I wouldn't play any 5 role. I know that amid discussions, at some point, 6 related to the -- the number of police officers in the 7 vicinity that had been seconded for various parts of the 8 province and other units within the OPP. 9 And we were starting to receive complaints 10 and concerns that policing was being diminished in other 11 parts of the province to provide resources for the 12 Ipperwash area in the event of an escalation. 13 So in terms of the timing of that, I'm not 14 -- my powers of recall are not that good. I -- but I 15 think that was certainly within the weeks, perhaps months 16 following the -- the shooting. 17 Q: And at -- in front of you there's a 18 little green binder that -- the green folder, if you 19 could go down, there's a draft of a letter that appears - 20 - it's from you to Mr. Beaubien. 21 It should be the fourth document in, sir. 22 It's dated March 29th, 1996. 23 A: Yes, I have it. 24 Q: That's Inquiry Document 2000484, it's 25 dated March 29th, 1996. This is a draft letter.
1971 Do you know if this letter was sent? 2 A: No, I do not. 3 Q: And the letter indicates in the first 4 paragraph: 5 "I am writing in response to issues 6 which you raised March 26th, 1996 7 during Caucus regarding Ipperwash. At 8 the outset, let me assure you that I am 9 in regular contact with OPP 10 Commissioner O'Grady. During the 11 course of our meetings, the next of 12 which is March 28th, 1996, amongst 13 other things we discussed law 14 enforcement issues which relate or may 15 relate to Ipperwash. 16 As you know -- as I know you are aware, 17 the situation at Ipperwash, from a 18 policing perspective, is presently 19 stable, which necessarily relieves this 20 Ministry of the lead, however, 21 contingency plans for future police 22 response should be indicated to have 23 been developed by the OPP for both 24 Ipperwash and Pinery Parks. Given the 25 obvious need for confidentiality in
1981 such planning, stakeholders in the area 2 have, to the extent possible, been 3 consulted and involved in this process. 4 I'm ensured by the OPP that they are 5 employing the necessary investigative 6 intelligence gathering options in the 7 course of managing present and 8 anticipated public security issues." 9 Do you recall what the concerns were 10 raised by Mr. Beaubien in the Caucus of 1996? 11 A: I've, you know, his -- specifically 12 the meeting, though I -- I think his concerns, though, 13 were essentially for residents, water front residents, 14 and others that were either not back on their property or 15 uncomfortable on their property -- still felt -- felt 16 threatened and uncertain about the future and -- and I 17 would imagine Marcel voiced those concerns at Caucus and 18 his frustration. 19 Q: Do you have any -- do you have any 20 specific recollection? 21 A: No, I do not, no. 22 Q: And you're making an assumption? 23 A: Yes, but I think it's a safe one. 24 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And do -- this 25 letter that is part of the productions from the Ontario
1991 Provincial Police, do you recall if this letter -- do you 2 recall a -- seeing a letter such as this and be sending 3 such a letter? 4 A: The letter to Beaubien you're 5 referencing? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I think what happened here is that I 8 was probably concerned about the -- the comments that Mr. 9 Beaubien made and felt that it was necessary for us to do 10 something. 11 And perhaps Mr. King may have felt it was 12 necessary as well. I don't recall, because he was trying 13 to keep -- that was part of his responsibility to keep -- 14 keep Caucus happy as best he could. 15 So I felt there probably was some -- some 16 encouragement to -- to ensure that we didn't ignore his - 17 - his concerns; to make sure that we responded. 18 Now, whether this letter went out in -- in 19 the revised form or not, I can't tell you. 20 Q: Perhaps we could mark this the next 21 exhibit? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-997, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-997: Document Number 2000484. 25 Letter to Marcel Beaubien from
2001 Robert Runciman, March 29/'96. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And at Tab 93 of the black binder 5 there's a copy of Exhibit P-621 and it's Inquiry Document 6 2000553 and it's headed, Ipperwash -- Solicitor -- 7 Confidential Briefing Notes Solicitor General and 8 Minister of Correctional Services Issue Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park Response Options, March 1996. 10 And on the third page it indicates that it 11 is from the -- from Commissioner O'Grady. 12 Did you receive a copy of this document, 13 sir? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I -- again, I know you're concerned 18 about me making assumptions, but I have to assume that I 19 would have seen this if it's a briefing note for the 20 Solicitor General. 21 Q: And it provides options. You will 22 see on page 2 there are three (3) directions available to 23 the Government: 24 "1. Wait and see. 25 2. Strict enforcement.
2011 3. Negotiated settlement." 2 And then on the third page: 3 "The recommendation is the Government 4 should appoint a negotiator with the 5 mandate and authority to negotiate on 6 behalf of the Province. This option 7 will 8 best preserve the public peace and 9 lead to 10 uniform peaceful resolution of similar 11 disputes." 12 Do you recall a discussion in or at the -- 13 in March, early April about the appointment of a 14 negotiator? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 17 I know you were hoping to finish today, but I know you 18 still have a few more areas -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, I do. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to cover 21 and it's five o'clock and my ability to concentrate is 22 beginning to weaken. 23 So, I think this might be -- 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I'm sure
2021 the witness is, as well. So I'm sure this is a good time 2 for us to break for today, unless you are just within 3 five (5) or ten (10) minutes of finishing. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think it'll take a 5 little bit longer than -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we-- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- five (5) or ten 8 (10) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- should 10 adjourn for the day and start again tomorrow morning at 11 nine o'clock, then. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 15 (WITNESS RETIRES) 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, January the 10th, at 19 9:00 a.m. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 4:59 p.m. 22 23 24 25
2031 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 8 9 _________________ 10 Carol Geehan, Ms. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25