11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 28th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (Student-at-law) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 Peter West ) (np) 22 Nagai On Young ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) 7 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 8 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 9 Julian Roy ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (student-at-law) 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 15 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 16 Matthew Horner ) (np) 17 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 18 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 Craig Mills ) 21 Megan Mackey ) (np) 22 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 23 Anna Perschy ) (np) 24 Melissa Panjer ) 25 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 Discussion 9 7 8 RONALD CRAIG GEORGE, Sworn 9 10 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 161 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 177 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-220 Document No. 1008276 Oct 02/90. 4 London Free Press article, 5 "Breakaway Indian Group Forms". 62 6 P-221 Hansard Report. Minutes of 7 Proceedings and Evidence of the 8 Standing Committee on Aboriginal 9 Affairs dated Thursday, 10 December 12th, 1991. 68 11 P-222 Document No. 1009780 Oct 15/90. 12 London Free Press article, "Burial 13 Renews Hope for Return of Land." 69 14 P-223 Document No. 1007627 July 21/93. 15 Sarnia Observer article, "Stoney 16 Point Members Promise Halt of 17 Toll Collection at Ipperwash Park". 92 18 P-224 Document No. 1007627 July 20/93. 19 Sarnia Observer article, "Hearing 20 Rescheduled for Stoney Point Natives". 93 21 P-255(a) Ronald C. George's letter to Chief 22 Tom Bressette, Aug O3/94. 98 23 P-225(b) Ronald C. George's letter to Carl 24 Otto George, Aug 03/94. 99 25
71 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-226 Letter to Department of Mines 4 and Resources, Indian Affairs 5 Branch Re: Election, Kettle 6 and Stony Point Reserves, 7 July 04/90. 110 8 P-227 Memorandum to Ms. Liz Thunder 9 and Mr. Maynard George, Chippewas 10 of Kettle and Stony Point 11 respectively from Michael Sherry, 12 Legal Counsel, July 14/93 Re: 13 Agreement on working relationships. 114 14 P-228 Agreement on working relationships 15 from those on Stoney Point No. 43 16 to those on Kettle Point No. 44 17 July 24/93. 116 18 P-229 Document No. 9000068. Petition 19 from Ron C. George to Prime Minister, 20 March 02/94 requesting return of Camp 21 Ipperwash property to the Stoney Point 22 Indians. 119 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-230 Letter to Ronald C. George from 4 Ronald A. Irwin PC, MP Minister of 5 Indian Affairs 7 Northern Development, 6 June 13/94 Re: March 02/94 Petition. 120 7 P-231 Fiduciary Relationship of the Crown 8 with Aboriginal Peoples: Implementation 9 and Management Issues. A guide for 10 managers, July '93. 121 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, Mr. Millar. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin this 11 week I just wanted to remind everyone that we'll be 12 calling this week, Mr. Ron George, who is here today, 13 followed by Chief Thomas Bressette and then followed by, 14 we hope, Elizabeth Thunder. 15 And before we begin today, Mr. 16 Klippenstein wishes to address you, Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 morning, Mr. Klippenstein. 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning, 20 Mr. Commissioner. As we indicated to Commission Counsel 21 and an e-mail late yesterday, our clients, that is to say 22 the Estate of Dudley George and Sam George and the Family 23 Members we represent, are withdrawing their request that 24 Sam George be permitted to testify in Toronto. 25 The request is being withdrawn after
101 further careful reflection by our clients in consultation 2 with their Counsel, advisors and other elders following 3 last week's public discussion of their request. 4 Our Clients are acting out of respect for 5 the wishes of Elder Clifford George and his unique status 6 on this issue as a war veteran, tireless campaigner for 7 the return of the Stoney Point Lands and someone who 8 returned to live on those lands for many harsh winters. 9 Sam George and his siblings believe Cliff George is owed 10 special deference on this issue. 11 Our Client's request was made on certain 12 principles to which points of principle Sam George 13 remains completely committed, however, Sam and his family 14 and his community and his people and their lands have 15 always survived on the basis of another important 16 principle, namely, respect for the elders. It is on that 17 basis following the unexpected intervention last week of 18 Elder George that our clients are withdrawing this 19 request. 20 Our clients and we wish to acknowledge the 21 consideration of yourself, Mr. Commissioner, Commission 22 Counsel and other parties to the Inquiry in the handling 23 of this request. Thank you. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Klippenstein. I think you've made the right 3 decision. I understand that there are some who think 4 that if the Hearings were in Toronto they might attract 5 more attention from a broader public and perhaps from 6 those who have a right to know about these Hearings and 7 from ultimate decision makers who will be responsible for 8 acting on any recommendations that I make; that may or 9 may not be true. 10 In any event, I agree it's important for a 11 Commissioner to be mindful of the public profile of an 12 Inquiry and the fact that a Public Inquiry has a 13 responsibility to all the people of Ontario and Canada 14 and not just to the people of the community that have 15 been most affected by the events in question. 16 Now, having said that, I'm confident that 17 this Inquiry has undertaken a broad research and 18 consultation agenda in Part 2 and that we will be 19 conducting several community meetings in Toronto and 20 elsewhere over the course of the next few months and I'm 21 satisfied that there will be many opportunities for more 22 public and media attention to be paid to the work of the 23 Inquiry. 24 And there has been considerable local 25 community and media attention to the work of the Inquiry.
121 There are members of the media in attendance every day at 2 the Inquiry, both local and from Toronto. Most days 3 there are reports in the local media, print and 4 electronic. Many days Canadian Press and the Osprey News 5 Network reports are more widely distributed. 6 In addition the Inquiry is videotaping the 7 entire proceedings and they are available for any media 8 outlet that requests it. The Aboriginal People 9 Television Network is televising segments of the Hearing 10 every week and they are readily available to cable 11 subscribers nationally and in Toronto. 12 Finally, I couldn't agree more with Mr. 13 Klippenstein that we can't ignore the remarks made by Mr. 14 Clifford George, namely, that if we were to move the 15 Inquiry at this time it might result in irreparable harm. 16 I've said on frequent occasions that one (1) of my 17 primary objectives is to contribute to healing in this 18 community. 19 I was most encouraged by Mr. Clifford 20 George stating that these Hearings are being noted by the 21 people of the local community in a positive way. 22 Therefore, we will continue with these Hearings in Forest 23 on the same basis as we started. That leaves it open to 24 anybody who considers he has a principle reason for 25 requesting a move, to do so and I will give it every
131 consideration. Thank you. 2 Let's begin. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Commissioner, Mr. 4 Worme's going to be leading Mr. Ron George. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. George. 6 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 8 the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath, sir? 9 THE WITNESS: Swear on the Bible. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Please take 11 the Bible in your right hand and state your name in full. 12 THE WITNESS: Ronald Craig George. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 14 15 RONALD CRAIG GEORGE, Sworn 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Mr. George, I understand that aside 19 from swearing on the Bible as you just have you also 20 carry something of significance to yourself and is there 21 something that you would like to say about that? 22 A: Yes. I've -- I've noticed that other 23 Aboriginal people carry and hold a feather. I have 24 feathers that were gifted to me but I have with me today 25 an item that's referred to -- at least my father referred
141 to as Pug-nii-awtik, other Ojibway would refer to as 2 Punyawtay and it is a piece of wood that was part of a 3 tree that was struck by lightening. 4 And the belief in our cultural systems is 5 that when God hits, for example, a tree with lightening 6 that it empowers the tree and the tree then becomes a 7 source of strength to us and guidance. 8 This particular item was given to me in 9 1987 and I'll just show it to you. It's -- it's made in 10 the from of a necklace and I have for the most part worn 11 it as such. It was given to me when I entered law school 12 in 1987 and its specific purpose was to give me 13 protection and guidance through my endeavours in the 14 legal system. 15 And I carry it with me always. So, I felt 16 that it was more appropriate for me to have that as 17 opposed to my feather today. 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. So that 19 together with the oath that you have just taken is meant 20 to bind your conscience insofar as your testimony here 21 today? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. If we can just continue 24 then. Your birth date is March 28 of 1952. 25 A: Yes.
151 Q: And you were born and raised at the 2 Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 3 A: Yes, I was. 4 Q: All right. Your father we understand 5 is -- was Robert George Jr.? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he also went by the -- by the 8 name Nobby? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And he is originally from 11 Stoney Point and we understand that he was relocated as a 12 ten (10) year old child in 1942? 13 A: I believe he was ten (10) years old. 14 Q: All right. Just before we move on, 15 with respect to your father, he had a career with the 16 RCMP? 17 A: Well, when the RCMP were policing 18 Indian communities in Ontario, my father was appointed as 19 a -- as a Band Constable. And worked to some extent I 20 guess under their direction although policing at the time 21 didn't encompass the kinds of responsibilities that First 22 Nations constable would have today. 23 Q: Okay. And we'll certainly come to 24 your policing background but I simply mention that that 25 you have some history of policing at least in terms of
161 your immediate family. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And indeed amongst some of your other 4 relatives? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Yeah. Your mother is -- was Sylvia 7 George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: My mother -- my mother is Sylvia 11 George. 12 Q: Your mother is Sylvia George, pardon 13 me. 14 A: Yes. And she's here today. 15 Q: And originally from the Chippewa of 16 Sarnia and she presently lives at the Kettle Point First 17 Nation as well? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: You are, Mr. George, one of eleven 20 (11) siblings? I wonder if you just might tell us a bit 21 about who they are? 22 A: My oldest sister, who is also here 23 today, is Shirley George. And I have brother Vince 24 George who is a -- just approaching his thirtieth 25 anniversary as an OPP officer. He's a sergeant with the
171 OPP. 2 I'm then third on the list. My sister 3 Roberta George also lives on Kettle Point. And then I 4 believe it's my brother Luke George who is also an OPP 5 officer and lives in Forest here and is stationed out of 6 the Lambton County Detachment. He's been a police 7 officer I think for twenty-three (23) or twenty-four (24) 8 years; has had some experience in the First Nation 9 Policing Program but for the last several years, more 10 than a decade, has been a member of the OPP. 11 My sister Kelly Gansler is a nurse that 12 works in the Detroit area and has been there for some 13 time. The -- I believe it's my sister Theresa Britton 14 who is in -- lives in Forest here but works on Kettle 15 Point. Then I have a brother Lyndon who lives in London 16 and works in the National Aids Program. 17 I have a sister Nikki -- Natalie, she 18 lives in Arkona. Her last name is Morrow and she's a 19 dietician that works with the Southern Ontario Aboriginal 20 Health Access Centre. Then I have a sister Sarah who 21 lives on Kettle Point and is currently going to school. 22 I also have a deceased brother, Robert 23 Tyrone George. He would have between Luke and Roberta 24 and he lived on Kettle Point, but when he -- when he died 25 he was living in Sarnia and he's buried in Sarnia on the
181 reserve. I think that's eleven (11). 2 Q: I think that's -- I think that's 3 right. Your paternal grandparents, Mr. George, was 4 Robert George, Sr. and Laura George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: They were Stoney Point locates, I 7 think they've been referred to? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I'm just going to put up on the 10 screen beside you a map that's been marked as P-40 in 11 these -- in these proceedings. 12 Do you recognize that, first of all? 13 A: Yeah, I do, because I've been sitting 14 around here for a long time watching it -- 15 Q: All right. 16 A: -- but I'm not really sure that I 17 ever looked at that prior to the Inquiry, probably did. 18 Q: All right. And -- 19 A: But, I recognize what it is. 20 Q: All right. In terms of where your 21 paternal grandparents would have had their -- their 22 property, their land, are you able to tell us that at all 23 in relation to this map on the screen? 24 A: You know, I'd only be able to do that 25 in sort of a -- a general way, but I think -- which one
191 of these is the -- 2 Q: I think that's it, the laser pointer? 3 A: Yeah, I -- I think it would have been 4 somewhere in around here. 5 Q: You're indicating -- 6 A: I'm not sure. The -- the maps that - 7 - that I would have been more familiar with would have -- 8 would have given me a different -- a different detail. 9 There would have been some names on it that would have 10 been associated with particular numbers, but I -- I would 11 think it would be somewhere in around there. 12 Q: And for the purposes of the record, 13 you're -- you're indicating the area that is marked on 14 that particular map as the grenade range or sten range. 15 A: Yeah. It's hard to say, but I'd say 16 that was -- that was right. Right in here, yeah. 17 Q: Your great-grandparents, Mr. George, 18 as I understand it would be -- have been Sarah George -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- and Albert George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Albert George, was he also known by 23 another name? 24 A: By Komani. Actually, I -- I have a 25 tendency to kind of refer to him more as Pakmawnakwaad,
201 which was the Indian name that I've understood he was -- 2 he was born with, which means there's a cloud coming or a 3 coming cloud. 4 In fact, that name has been the subject of 5 debate in -- in our immediate family with respect to 6 changing our surname from George to Pakmawnakwaad. 7 Q: All right. Mr. George, you were 8 related to the late Dudley George? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And how was it that you were related 11 to him? 12 A: Well, his father Reg George and -- 13 and my father were brothers so he would have been my 14 first cousin. 15 Q: All right. And the last thing I was 16 going to ask you about yourself, that you also go by a 17 nickname? 18 A: Yes, Spike. I actually prefer that 19 as opposed to Ron. 20 Q: All right. I want to turn to your 21 professional background and I know that it is quite -- 22 quite extensive. You became a police officer initially 23 in 1976? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: Had taken your training at the OPP
211 academy in Toronto? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: As well as the Ontario Police 4 College? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Is there anything with respect to 7 that training that you wish to tell us about at this 8 moment? 9 A: Well, I did -- I did the sort of 10 normal thing that police officers would do, go to recruit 11 training at Sherbourne Street Academy in Toronto and that 12 was followed up at the time by two (2) different times 13 when I attended to the Ontario Police College at -- in 14 Aylmer. 15 But, during the course of my tenure as a 16 First Nations constable or what we referred to as a 17 Special Constable, just immediately after 1976 I had the 18 opportunity to involve myself in other training. I've 19 had training in marine patrol, I've been trained as a 20 coach officer to recruits. 21 Very early in my career, which was kind of 22 an interesting move on the part of the OPP, I was trained 23 in the area of criminal investigations. I think I was 24 only three (3) or four (4) years on the job when I 25 attended. It was quite an extensive course and I can't
221 remember exactly how long it was, but it was several 2 weeks at Aylmer. 3 At Aylmer, primarily the people who would 4 have attended then were senior officers that would have 5 had anywhere between fifteen (15) to twenty (20) years on 6 the job. So, it was really kind of unusual for a 7 constable that only had three (3) or four (4) years to be 8 there. But it was a very good course. 9 I -- I can't really recall what other 10 training I had. It's been a long time since I've 11 actually participated in -- 12 Q: You've indicated that you were one of 13 the first Aboriginal special constables? 14 A: Yes. It was in 1975 when the -- the 15 Provincial Government, the Federal Government and the 16 different First Nations government entered into a 17 tripartite agreement that substantially changed the type 18 of policing that was offered by First Nations people to 19 First Nations communities that essentially went from -- 20 the RCMP model which as I said earlier, really didn't 21 have the kinds of responsibilities or even benefits that 22 the new program had. 23 The constables subject to the agreement 24 that was signed by these different groups were appointed 25 as special constables. And at the time I think there --
231 my appointment on the 10th of March 1976, I think there 2 were only in the neighbourhood of thirty-five (35) of 3 these special constables appointed to police in -- on 4 Indian reserves, so I was amongst the first in that 5 program. 6 Q: And you were -- you were appointed as 7 a special constable and stationed where? 8 A: Specifically for Kettle Point. 9 Q: Aside from -- aside from your 10 training as a police officer, you also had opportunity to 11 attend law school? 12 A: Well, yeah, actually I attended law 13 school -- most of my academic experience has been -- has 14 occurred while I've been in the -- in the policing 15 community. Law school came after a period of time when I 16 was actually on a form of a leave from the First Nations 17 or -- I get this mixed up and I apologize for that but I 18 -- at the time it was the Indian Policing Program. So 19 you know, I'm going to refer to First Nations Program and 20 Indian Policing Program and I mean the same thing. 21 But I was on a form of a leave in 1984 22 when I actually attended on a full time basis to the 23 University of Western Ontario. And I began my academic 24 studies by really focussing on the discipline of 25 psychology and I had very specific reasons for that.
241 That actually followed a time when I 2 really wasn't sure whether this is something I wanted to 3 do. There weren't a lot of role models for people like 4 myself even that far back, who attended a post secondary 5 school institutions and were very salient in the 6 community. 7 So, I wasn't really certain that I could 8 be successful in that sort of an academic environment. 9 So, what I did was, it was really kind of the urging of a 10 female OPP constable. I -- I registered with the 11 University of Waterloo and took a half credit 12 introductory course in, I believe it was psychology in 13 1982 I think. My dates might be a little bit off. 14 And I was successful in that so I was 15 feeling a little bit confident in myself, you know, after 16 one half credit course and I thought maybe I'd pursue 17 another one. So, I took another correspondence course. 18 It was a lot -- there were books to read and tapes to 19 listen to and I primarily did that while I was still 20 working. 21 The second course was a social psychology 22 course. And again I -- I performed reasonably well in 23 that so my confidence level was -- was rising 24 significantly. A corporal who was kind of supervising us 25 at the time from the local OPP Detachment had -- had
251 suggested to me that I might try to access a leave in the 2 OPP and attend university on a full time basis. 3 So, I -- I went to -- went to Western at 4 Kings College and in 1987 I actually graduated with a 5 degree in sociology notwithstanding the fact that I had 6 actually started pursuing psychology. And I ran into a 7 bit of a -- a concern that I had about what exactly it -- 8 it was that I was doing. I'd come to realize that in 9 addressing the interest of Aboriginal people, it really 10 wasn't psychology that I needed to focus on because it 11 wasn't about -- in my mind anyway -- it wasn't about 12 issues related to the person. 13 The issues that I was concerned about that 14 were some of the struggles that Aboriginal people were 15 focussing on had more to do with what I interpreted at 16 the time as a class of cultures -- a clash of cultures -- 17 cultures and so I felt that after reviewing the -- the 18 sort of principles of psychology as I knew them, and 19 you've got to appreciate I'm just a -- a new student, I 20 felt that when I compared them with the principles of 21 sociology that sociology was really the program I needed 22 to be in. 23 So, I met with the Department heads of 24 both the schools of psychology and sociology and was able 25 to convince them that I should be allowed to transfer my
261 credits from the first year over to the pursuit of the -- 2 a degree in sociology so, ultimately my degree, my 3 undergraduate degree was sociology. 4 Q: In fact, you have an -- an honours -- 5 a Bachelor of Arts with honours -- 6 A: Well -- 7 Q: -- in sociology from the University 8 of Western Ontario. 9 A: Well, yeah, I had the equivalent of 10 that because I -- I graduated in, like I said, in 1987. 11 I went to law school bar admission course, set up a 12 practice and I was still kind of anxious about improving 13 my -- my own academic credentials and my understanding of 14 -- of not only the discipline, but of some of the issues 15 that were -- that were very salient in the Aboriginal 16 communities. 17 So, while I was practising law in 1996, I 18 did what I thought post facto was kind of a crazy thing 19 and that was I actually applied to the University again 20 and had convinced the Department of Sociology at King's 21 College again that I should -- I should be granted full- 22 time admission to -- to the sociology program and work 23 on my -- what was the equivalent of an honours level 24 degree. 25 So, what happened was, I actually was
271 practising law full-time in Sarnia and I'd spoken to the 2 judge that I generally was appearing before and asked him 3 if he -- despite the fact that I was junior counsel 4 around that Court, if he would schedule most of my 5 appearances early in the morning and -- and then put the 6 rest of them off for late in the afternoon so that I 7 could drive to London and go to school and finish school 8 and go back to Sarnia to finish my Court. 9 So, what happened was, the school can't 10 give you -- can't give you two (2) degrees. They can 11 give you an undergraduate degree and there's no basis for 12 them the give you then a second honours degree, so what 13 they give you is a, what they call a diploma with honours 14 standing, and my specific study for that year was the 15 area of the sociology of Aboriginal protest. 16 But in the -- in between those two (2) 17 times, and I want to get back to this because I know 18 you're going to ask me this question, in 1987 I did go to 19 my first year at the University of Western Ontario's law 20 school and so from 1987 to 1990 I -- I attended there and 21 was granted an LLB in 1990. 22 Q: All right. Your LLB came from the 23 University of Western Ontario I think you've just said? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: You went on to complete a Masters of
281 Law? 2 A: Yes, in -- well, let me -- let me 3 kind of get the chronology clear here and -- and I need 4 to do this probably for my own benefit. 5 When I finished my -- my law degree I -- I 6 began articles. Actually -- actually it was a new 7 program with the Law Society. It was sort of a three (3) 8 stage bar admission program where for the first month, 9 and I think that was in May of 1990, I -- I went to this 10 one (1) month program with the Law Society in London and 11 did some sort of general things. And then I left there 12 and went to start my articles with a private law firm in 13 Sarnia, Mr. David Stoesser. 14 I finished up most of my articles with 15 him, but I had -- because I was still on some kind of a 16 leave and -- and the reason I say, some kind of a leave 17 because I don't think at the time there was really a 18 specific policy that was -- could afford Special 19 Constables opportunity to access academic leave so there 20 was some manoeuvring within the OPP to grant me those 21 opportunities. 22 And so while I was still a part of the OPP 23 and hadn't formally resigned I was -- I was articling at 24 this law firm in Sarnia, but it was very clear at the 25 time to myself and to officials at the OPP that I would
291 be returning to something. 2 Whether it was with the OPP or -- or with 3 First Nations policing, we weren't really clear, but I 4 had decided after having some discussions with -- with 5 someone there and I can't remember who that was. I think 6 it might have been Superintendent Bill Sulston that I 7 would finish my articles with the -- with the legal 8 department of the Associate General's office. 9 So, for the last few months in 1991, I 10 actually went to Toronto and worked out of their -- their 11 office there under the supervision of David Spring. And 12 then I actually was and I can't remember the year, I 13 think it might have been 1991, I re-engaged in sort of an 14 official policing capacity and I was actually hired by 15 the OPP, was appointed as a provincial constable and then 16 within a minute I was -- the commissioner used his 17 prerogative and I was promoted to the rank of inspector 18 and assigned to the office of the deputy solicitor 19 general of Ontario, Donald Obonsawin. 20 I didn't stay there very long. I -- I 21 worked there for a year but I felt kind oppressed to -- 22 to set up a law practice for a number of reasons and 23 ultimately I -- in 1992, I left the OPP and set up a 24 private law practice on Kettle Point and I was actually 25 assisted by a friend of mine who I had gone to school
301 with, Mr. David Spring who now practice in -- David 2 Spring -- I'm sorry, David Fysh who now practices in 3 London. 4 And so I practised law for three (3) years 5 and it was -- or five (5) years and it was during that 6 time between 1992 and '97 that I -- I went back to 7 Western. I was re-hired by the OPP in -- well again, 8 this is kind of a two stage thing. 9 In 1997 I went back to the OPP and I was 10 really on a contract at the time. Worked for six (6) 11 months or so on contract and then in January of 1998 I 12 was rehired by the OPP and, you know, one thing led to 13 another. 14 And then in 1999 I actually did the second 15 craziest thing I've ever done and that is I decided, 16 after having some discussions with -- with my immediate 17 supervisors, I -- I registered in the full time Masters 18 of Law program at -- at the University of Ottawa. 19 And I was doing the same -- essentially 20 kind of the same thing I'd done when I -- when I did the 21 honours level program and that is I was working full time 22 but then would drive all the way to Ottawa and on 23 Wednesday afternoons and attend classes and do research 24 all day Thursday and then drive back to Kettle Point or 25 wherever my job took me at ten o'clock of 10:30 on
311 Thursday night and -- and re-assume my duties on Friday. 2 And then in 2001, I actually received my 3 masters of law degree from the University of Ottawa. 4 Q: Needless to say, that you were quite 5 busy. 6 A: Yeah, I was. 7 Q: And to complicate matters and I'm -- 8 we'll come back to this, but you also had certain 9 political involvement with your community in or around 10 that same period of time and specifically with the Kettle 11 and Stony Point First Nation Band Council. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I wonder if you might just tell us 14 about that as well? 15 A: Well the best of my recollection 16 during this whole period of time, I had actually been 17 elected to the Band Council and I think it was 1992. 18 Then I was re-elected to Band Council in 1996 and then I 19 was -- and that was a two year period. 20 Actually I resigned from -- before that 21 term was over because when I was hired by the OPP I felt 22 that I really needed to focus on this new job. So, I was 23 -- I was elected in '96 and then in January of '98, five 24 (5) or six (6) months before the expiration of the term, 25 the political term, I -- I resigned.
321 And then I -- I was re-elected in 2000 to 2 Band Council and I currently sit as an elected member of 3 Council. 4 Q: And those are two (2) year terms 5 pursuant to the Indian Act? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: So, you would have had since 2000, 8 been elected at least a couple of times? Re-elected, 9 pardon me. 10 A: Three (3) times. Well re-elected -- 11 elected one and re-elected three (3) times I guess -- or 12 twice, sorry. 13 Q: We're -- we're going to -- we're 14 going to come to this, Mr. George, and I'll certainly 15 give you an opportunity to speak to it. 16 But around that same period you were also 17 involved with the people, the folks at Stoney Point in 18 terms of some of the struggle that they were engaging in 19 an attempt to reclaim those territories. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: In addition to your activities now, 22 you -- you currently hold the rank of Inspector with the 23 Ontario Provincial Police. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And you're in a rather unique
331 position insofar as an Aboriginal person with the OPP? 2 A: Well, unique in -- in -- in regards 3 to the fact that I -- I do -- I'm the only one that does 4 this particular job, I'm not the only Aboriginal person 5 that has ever reached the rank of Inspector. 6 Q: You hold a -- a position of 7 Aboriginal Issues -- 8 A: Operations. 9 Q: Operation. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you tell us just a it about that, 12 if you would, please? 13 A: Yeah, I kind of compare it and -- and 14 very often it gets confused. In the OPP there have been 15 many liaison officers and there -- and there continue to 16 be many liaison officers and for the most part 17 historically, those liaison officers have performed in -- 18 in the area of more administration, assisting with the -- 19 the ongoing daily activities of the -- of the program. 20 They would address issues like training, 21 recruitment, equipment. They would work with Aboriginal 22 officers to ensure that, you know, all of their needs are 23 being met or so many of their needs as -- as could be met 24 within the parameters of the policing agreements that 25 existed from time to time and they would really work on
341 the -- more of the administrative side of the OPP as 2 opposed to the operational side of the OPP. 3 I work more on the operations side which 4 would be -- which would be related to, you know, the 5 general ongoing day-to-day activities of a -- of a police 6 officer that as people would generally know the, for 7 example, patrol, investigation of crimes, those kinds of 8 things. So, I distinguish, you know, operations from 9 administration that way. 10 And my accountabilities are directly to 11 the Deputy Commissioner of Field and Traffic Services and 12 the Commissioner of the OPP. 13 Q: And that would be Commissioner 14 Boniface? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: You also serve the Lieutenant 17 Governor -- pardon me, the Lieutenant -- Lieutenant -- 18 Lieutenant Governor. 19 A: Lieutenant Governor of Ontario, James 20 Bartleman. I'm Aide-de-Camp and have been for -- I think 21 his term is just reaching his third year and I've been 22 appointed as an Aide throughout. Actually, I would -- 23 would have been appointed either on that day or -- or 24 just prior to his appointment in March of 2002, I think 25 it was.
351 He was the first -- he is the first 2 Aboriginal Lieutenant Governor of Ontario and I'm, we 3 believe, the first Aboriginal Aide-de-Camp to a sitting 4 Lieutenant Governor in -- in Ontario. 5 Q: All right. With that background, Mr. 6 George, I want take you then back to the issue regarding 7 Stoney Point that your father -- you've told us Robert 8 George, Jr. was -- was relocated in 1942 from Stoney 9 Point. I think you indicated you believed he was age ten 10 (10)? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And your grandfather, then, Robert 13 George, Sr., was also relocated from Kettle Point to 14 Stoney Point in and around that same time. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And your grandfather had passed away, 17 as I understand, when you were a relatively young -- 18 young boy. 19 A: I was nine (9) years old. 20 Q: Okay. And I wonder if you might tell 21 us anything about what you recall whether they had talked 22 to you about their life in Stoney Point? 23 A: Can I -- can I just mention something 24 about my academic pursuits -- 25 Q: Yes, you may.
361 A: -- that I think is important, I mean, 2 before we get to that? I did speak to you and say that 3 in my academic pursuits in 1996 and 1997 my focus of 4 study was on the sociology of Aboriginal protest and I 5 think it's kind of important because I kind of believe 6 it's -- it's useful for people to understand other's 7 perspectives. 8 My studies with respect to my Masters of 9 Law program were focussed on the study of indigenous law 10 or what my father referred to in his language as 11 Inaakniaewin which was a principle of law that said, 12 essentially, if you do good things to things, then good 13 things will happen to you and, conversely, if you do bad 14 things to things, then bad things will happen to you. 15 And that is an overriding principle of 16 justice in the Aboriginal community that suggests that 17 social control comes by virtue of one's adherence to the 18 idea that you must do good things and do good things in a 19 good way. So, I just wanted to say that because I 20 thought it was important to speak to that, both my 21 honours level thing and my masters. 22 Q: I appreciate that, Mr. George. I 23 wonder if, just before we leave again, the area of your - 24 - of your academic pursuits, you were also involved 25 teaching -- were involved teaching at a number of
371 universities, in fact, currently still teach? 2 A: Yeah. And I'm not sure really how it 3 started, but I had developed some fairly strong 4 relationships at the University of Western Ontario when I 5 was -- I was the only Aboriginal student there in year 6 one (1). I was the only Aboriginal student in the whole 7 school. 8 That presented a bit of a challenge, 9 however, you know, things have developed and evolved over 10 time, not in the way I'd like them, but ultimately 11 they're much better than they were. 12 And as a result of some of the things I 13 was doing locally and I guess the University of Western 14 Ontario's need to -- to have more of an Aboriginal 15 presence, not only in terms of students, but in terms of 16 people teaching, but to focus on Aboriginal issues as -- 17 as a matter of course selection, they asked me if I would 18 be interested in teaching Aboriginal law there. 19 So, in 1996 -- and that would have been 20 the time that I was back to school, I believe it was -- 21 the law school had provided me with an opportunity to 22 teach Aboriginal law there and actually I -- I co-taught 23 that particular course that year with Chief -- who was 24 then Chief Superintendent Gwen Boniface, now our 25 Commissioner and I think we had taught together for a
381 couple of years. I taught another year there for a 2 semester on my own and then I went to a number of other 3 venues. 4 I -- and this was -- after I was re-hired 5 by the OPP, or re-engaged by the OPP in '97, I was doing 6 this on behalf of the OPP. And I -- I taught for a 7 couple of terms at Lambton College's Law and Security 8 Program, Aboriginal issues, and then I took a year off, I 9 think, or some time off from teaching, but then when I 10 was back at the University of Ottawa, I taught Aboriginal 11 law there one (1) year and then another term I taught a 12 course in Aboriginal justice concepts. 13 I wanted to continue this because this was 14 all part of, kind of an agreement that we had -- that I 15 had with the OPP upon my return to employment there that 16 I needed to continue to teach it because I believe very 17 strongly in advancing Aboriginal issues by enhancing 18 people's understanding of the issues. 19 So, ultimately what happened when I left 20 Ottawa -- and it was -- it was very difficult to continue 21 to -- to travel there back and forth, notwithstanding the 22 fact that Ottawa was very good in terms of playing -- 23 paying for flights and travel expenses, it was just too 24 much time. 25 So, I met with the -- the Dean at the
391 University of Windsor and had some discussions with them 2 about wanting to continue to teach and so I was appointed 3 as the First Access to Justice Fellow and I think that 4 was in 2002 and I taught Aboriginal law there. Last year 5 I taught Aboriginal law there, this year I'm teaching 6 Aboriginal justice concepts and -- and in each year I was 7 the -- have been the coach of the Moot team that will 8 participate in the National Aboriginal Moot. 9 Incidentally, that Moot is occurring this 10 week in Saskatoon so I'll be travelling there with the -- 11 with the team to assist them. 12 Q: Your teaching of Aboriginal justice 13 concepts, I gather that that would have given you the 14 occasion to reflect on some of the teachings that you 15 would have received at the feet of your father? You had 16 -- you had -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- talked about his concepts of 19 indigenous law, I think as you put it. 20 A: Yeah. Yes. 21 Q: I had asked you earlier, Mr. George, 22 just before I had taken you back to -- to complete some 23 of your academic pursuits, how you would have become 24 aware of your connection to the Stoney Point lands or the 25 Army Camp lands?
401 A: Yes. 2 Q: How would you prefer to describe it, 3 first of all? 4 A: Well, I guess I was always aware of 5 something as a kid in terms of some kind of a 6 relationship we had or some kind of an interest we had in 7 it. As a -- as a kid, I recall that we used to frequent 8 the place regularly. In fact, I remember probably the two 9 (2) people who were most involved in -- in getting me 10 there were two (2) of my cousins. One (1) name was Bruce 11 George, Jr., or we call him, Chubby and -- and the one 12 was Wayne Bressette, we call him, Polecat. 13 And they were a little bit older than me 14 and -- and they would -- interesting guys, you know, 15 they would -- they would take the younger guys and -- and 16 take us to the bush. They would teach us to fish, teach 17 us to hunt. They would even show us how to cook for 18 ourselves in the bush and then we would ultimately end 19 up at Stoney Point. 20 We would -- we would walk from Kettle 21 Point and go through non-Aboriginal people's land through 22 the bush on the ridge and ultimately the ridge would get 23 us past one (1) concession block and we would -- actually 24 it would be two (2) concession blocks and we would 25 ultimately end up at -- at Stoney Point and -- and we'd
411 frequent there a lot. 2 Q: That was Army Camp -- CFB Ipperwash 3 at the time? 4 A: It was -- it was an Army Camp at the 5 time. Yeah, it was an army camp. 6 Q: And was there any difficulty in terms 7 of accessing those lands? 8 A: Not that I recall. 9 Q: Do you recall whether there might 10 have been, for example, fence around there? 11 A: You know something? I -- I -- my 12 memory tells me there wasn't fences, but there could have 13 been there were fences and just no locked gates, but we - 14 - we were going in and out of the place freely. I don't 15 think there were fences, but I stand to be corrected on 16 that. 17 Q: In terms of any military personnel, 18 had you any encounters that you can recall? Again, we're 19 talking about the time when you would have attended there 20 with your -- with your older cousins? 21 A: You know, that would have been, you 22 know, in the early '60s and I don't recall having any 23 difficulty with the Military, although you would see them 24 around from time to time. 25 Q: Okay. Some of the activities that
421 you would engage in, can you tell us anything about that? 2 A: We would -- well, we used to -- we 3 used to fish at a -- a stone quarry that was more to the 4 north. It was along Highway 21 and it was more to the 5 north, I guess, east corner. So, that would be -- that 6 would be one (1) thing that we did. And we -- and we did 7 that a lot, so, it would -- if that's what that is, 8 that's -- that's where we did that. 9 Q: But that has been identified, Mr. -- 10 Mr. George, by other witnesses as the stone -- stone 11 quarry? 12 A: Yeah. And we had free access to that 13 and we would go there and fish, you know, they had bass 14 in there and lots of snakes in there. I didn't like 15 snakes at the time and I still don't like snakes. 16 And this -- I don't know if this is it, 17 but that ridge would -- would -- if you would follow that 18 to the -- to the west, it would go through two (2) 19 concession blocks and then ultimately end up at Kettle 20 Point and Kettle Point has a substantial ridge on it too. 21 So, that's -- that's where we would walk along and we 22 would ultimately come here and then we would make our way 23 to here. 24 Q: Just for the purposes of the record, 25 if I can interrupt you briefly, Mr. George, you're
431 indicating the stone quarry which is located in the 2 bottom right-hand section of the diagram marked as P-40 3 that is adjacent to Highway 21 and what has been 4 described for us as Outer Drive? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: The ridge that you've described that 7 you would walk along from Kettle Point across two (2) 8 concession blocks through the -- through the reserve is 9 approximately the middle of the diagram that's marked as 10 P-40? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And so, in terms of what activities 14 we were involved in, we would -- we would fish there and 15 then somewhere, and I don't know -- I don't see it up 16 there, there were a couple of inland lakes and we would - 17 - we would fish there as well and swim there and there 18 was always this crazy notion that we had to be careful 19 there because it was bottomless. 20 I don't know if that's true or not, but 21 it's what we believed as kids, you know, so we were very 22 careful with that -- with those two (2) bodies of water. 23 But, it's -- just as much as -- as that, we used to 24 spend a lot of time right in here picking morels and -- 25 Q: And you're indicating approximately
441 the middle area of the -- of the reserve? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Well, no, not the middle area, it 5 would be more in here, the -- the west side of it -- 6 Q: All right. Thank you. 7 A: -- as opposed to in here. It was 8 more in here. 9 Q: Morels we're told are an edible 10 mushroom. 11 A: Is that what they are, mushrooms? I 12 didn't know that. 13 Q: I don't -- 14 A: I don't know what they are. They're 15 just odd looking and good tasting. And we had to watch 16 for bugs in them, I know that. Everybody seemed to be 17 cooking them. My mom would cook them, my Uncle Bruce who 18 is probably more the source of my -- my habit for morels. 19 Q: Okay. You've become more and more 20 aware I take it as -- as you grew older, about the 21 connection that you told us about. I think you'd 22 indicated that you were aware that there was some 23 connection between your family, your community and the 24 Stoney Point lands or the -- 25 A: Yeah.
451 Q: -- military reserve? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: What can you tell us about -- 4 A: Well, when I reflect on it I can now 5 say that there were discussions about that within some of 6 the extended family. And what I mean by that, my uncle's 7 family and of course my dad. 8 But I tell you what really kind of cued my 9 interest was, some time in the early 70's there was a 10 newspaper article and then chief, I think it was Charles 11 Shawkence Jr. -- or Sr., begin to make some noise about 12 this piece of land and its -- and the more specific 13 details about the -- about its history and about the 14 interest that the people had in it. 15 So I think I was really kind of cued to 16 start pulling together some of the more scattered ideas 17 or information that I had about it. So, that was kind of 18 the beginning I think. 19 Q: This commentary by Chief Shawkence, 20 can you recall where that might have been published? 21 A: I -- I thought it was Forest paper. 22 Q: And again the nature of -- of the 23 comments by Chief Charles Shawkence Sr.? 24 A: I don't know -- I just -- like I said 25 my recollection of it was that he seemed to be -- be
461 drawing some kind of -- some kind -- drawing attention to 2 the fact that we kind of owned it. And that it was taken 3 from us and it needed to come back, that sort of thing. 4 Q: And then the late 60's early 70's you 5 would have been a teenager? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your interest began to grow? Is 8 that -- is that a fair characterization? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: In terms of this interest, Mr. 11 George, was that then discussed to your recollection? 12 For example, within -- within your family, your family 13 perhaps? 14 A: Well, I tell you what it did is, I 15 think, you know, obviously when -- when the chief or 16 anybody in the community begins to profile these kind of 17 issues, people begin to talk more about it. I recall 18 that, you know, there was more political activity on the 19 part of the chief at the time. 20 But, I think one of the equally important 21 things that it did for me was that it begin to cause me 22 to focus a little bit more. So, then when -- and I -- 23 and I, you know, when you would hear about it, you'd 24 listen to it now instead of just dispensing with it and 25 not paying any attention to it.
471 So, I -- I think there may have been 2 discussions going on prior to the within the family unit 3 but I didn't really pay much attention to it because it 4 wasn't very much -- a very salient issue. And then when 5 there was attention being drawn to it, I -- I was paying 6 increased attention to it and developing my own ideas and 7 thoughts about it. 8 I wasn't strident in it. I was just 9 listening and learning. 10 Q: You began to pay some attention -- 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: -- greater attention. 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And you began to form your own -- 15 your own opinions I think you've just mentioned? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: Your father began to get active in 18 seeking the return of the land as well? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And what can you tell us about that 21 in terms of -- first of all, in terms of the timelines 22 and secondly, what sort of activities do you recall? 23 A: Well, to the best of my recollection, 24 my father began to speak more about it, talk more about 25 it, and I think we began to ask questions more and -- and
481 he began to relate some of the, kind of a history or his 2 views on it to us. 3 I think as I look back that this probably 4 became a bigger issue, at least amongst our family in the 5 mid 80's or maybe the late 80's. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And, of course, at the time, you 8 know, I was a -- I was a little bit older formulating my 9 own ideas and I suppose feeling some confidence in my 10 ability to discuss those and share those ideas. 11 So, I would converse with not only my 12 father, but other people that were around his age and 13 have discussions about these things. 14 Q: We've heard something about meetings 15 that would occur from time to time, a group described as 16 locatee's meetings? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is that -- is that what you're 19 referring to? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you tell us what you recall 22 about those -- those sorts of meetings, who might have 23 been involved, for example, besides your father? 24 A: Well, again, to the best -- to the 25 best of my -- my recollection, I know my dad was
491 involved. There were people like Angeline Shawkence that 2 was involved; she's now deceased. My father's deceased 3 too. Pearl George would have been involved; she's 4 deceased. Melva George was involved; she's deceased. 5 What's here name, Rosemary Wolfe was involved and she's 6 deceased. 7 Marlene Cloud would have been around off 8 and on too and I know Janet Cloud, Pearl's daughter was - 9 - was around a lot. In fact, she was a fairly good sort 10 of element in that whole discussion because very often 11 some of them would -- would talk about these things and 12 not a whole lot because everybody was using English, but 13 from time to time they would speak in Ojibway. And Janet 14 seemed to be able to -- I found her very comfortable in 15 talking about how -- what does that mean and that sort of 16 thing and she -- because she was younger. 17 But I think there would -- there must have 18 been more people, but those are the ones that I really 19 remember sitting around in little circles talking about 20 it and from to time others would come and participate in 21 these discussions. 22 Q: And as they would discuss the issues, 23 the issue of the land, the Stoney Point lands, did they 24 express any feelings? 25 A: Oh, yeah, no doubt about it. Dean
501 Cloud was there, too. That was -- that was Janet's 2 husband. That is Janet's husband. He was there. But 3 yeah, they were -- they were, you know, they weren't 4 focussed on -- on technicalities, they were more focussed 5 on, you know, like the -- the workings of law or why 6 there may have been a breach in -- in government 7 responsibilities. 8 They would not have talked about fiduciary 9 responsiblity and those kinds of things that you hear all 10 the time. They were talking more about their existence 11 there. They would talk about their mothers and fathers 12 who owned land there. They would talk about having lived 13 there and they would tell stories about that -- that 14 experience in their lives and they were very passionate 15 about it to the extent where it wasn't uncommon for them 16 to be shedding tears in their discussions. That -- that 17 motivated me. 18 Q: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: How -- how did your being privy to 21 these conversations, learning from them, and if you had 22 learned from them -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and listening to the passion, how 25 did that affect you?
511 A: Well, it affected me because in -- in 2 a way I -- I felt -- I don't know what the right word is, 3 but I -- I felt almost a little negligent, you know, that 4 here were these old people who -- who didn't really 5 clearly understand the workings of whatever law might 6 have been -- been at work, either in the 1800s or 1942 or 7 1972 or 1988, didn't really understand that stuff, but 8 they sure had a strong knowledge of what it is they 9 wanted and -- and what their experiences were. 10 And, you know, I -- I felt like I should 11 have been paying attention to this before I actually 12 internalized it, but it kind of motivated me to -- to 13 say, You know something, I -- I -- I need to help these 14 people. I need to be part of this and I used to 15 characterize it as I needed to be part of the solution as 16 part -- as opposed to part of the continuing problem. 17 So, I just felt they needed help and -- 18 and you know, there were probably other people there that 19 were helping somewhere. I know Janet was more my age and 20 she seemed to be a constant -- but like I said, it -- I 21 was personally moved by it. 22 Q: So, there was a -- a building 23 consciousness among -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- people of your -- your peer group?
521 A: I think so. 2 Q: And in fair -- 3 A: There certainly was with me. 4 Q: All right. And in fairness to you, I 5 mean you've already described to us some of the other 6 activities you were involved in. You had a career as a - 7 - as an OPP member. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You had been in law school in and 10 around this time. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it that there was some 13 interest in you as well, because you had begun to develop 14 some knowledge of the law from this group, who were 15 perhaps, if I can put it this way, less knowledgeable 16 about the intricacies or the technicalities, I think as 17 you put it? 18 A: When I reflect back on that, you 19 know, maybe I didn't think that at the time, but now that 20 I look back on how it evolved, I think that was probably 21 accurate, that they were maybe relying on me or -- 22 because of what they may have thought was my ability to 23 understand these or my new skill sets. 24 Q: Okay. And I want to talk to you 25 about that, about what it is that -- that you did, but
531 before we move to that, can you recall any of the 2 specific activities that your father and perhaps others 3 would have been involved in, in terms of their efforts to 4 get the land back, or re-establish a community? 5 A: In that time frame? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And we're talking about the mid to 8 late '80s -- probably more the late '80s. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: They seemed to be -- like meeting a 11 lot, and that was a big issue in -- in our community, as 12 I saw it, for people to actually be meeting, apart from 13 others, meeting by themselves and talking about this and 14 expressing their desire to have land that they felt 15 belonged to them, returned to them. 16 In may ways it was -- it seemed to me that 17 they were taking the right approach, but it wasn't, I 18 don't think, an approach that was endorsed by everybody, 19 so they were meeting more than anything. 20 I remember one (1), on one (1) occasion, 21 and they were beginning to express themselves in other 22 venues, or in relation to other subject matter. I 23 remember it was maybe 1987 or 1988 that the Federal 24 Government of Canada, had -- and I don't -- I don't even 25 remember what the specific details were, but I remember
541 they had announced a cap on post-secondary school funding 2 for First Nations people, and that created, obviously, a 3 huge concern in the Aboriginal community or in the First 4 Nations community. 5 I know I was in law school at the time, 6 and these people had decided that we should participate 7 in expressing our disapproval of what the Government was 8 doing, because we needed more money for the increasing 9 numbers of First Nations students who were attending 10 universities and colleges, and they wanted to be part of 11 that. And it would ultimately get them to Parliament 12 Hill. 13 So, I remember we talked about it, and 14 they had encouraged me to go to this event, and so people 15 were in vans and cars and -- and some of this group 16 actually went to Ottawa, and began to voice themselves on 17 other issues. 18 But generally speaking, at that point in 19 time, they were more just meeting and talking and 20 building awareness, I think. 21 Q: You've told us then that -- that this 22 building of awareness certainly increased the profile in 23 your own mind, it motivated you to begin to become more 24 actively involved? 25 A: Yes.
551 Q: What sorts of things did you do as a 2 result of your -- your increased motivation? 3 A: Well I started reading a lot, there's 4 no doubt about that, because I didn't feel that I really 5 had a -- a strong understanding of the history of this 6 thing, and I didn't know what the technical workings of 7 whatever laws were being engaged, how that affected this 8 history. I didn't know what the -- essentially, the -- 9 the legal standing of -- of the -- the issue was. 10 So I began to read a lot of documents, and 11 primarily the documents that I ultimately accessed, were 12 documents that Maynard T. George had provided to this 13 group, because he began to become a fairly salient member 14 in this -- this initiative. 15 Q: And just in terms of the timeline, so 16 I understand, Mr. George, we're talking about what time 17 frame now? 18 A: I'm thinking the real late 1980s, and 19 maybe the 1990, early 1990. 20 Q: All right. I want to refer you to a 21 -- an article, which is at Tab 7 of your binder, it is 22 Inquiry Document 1008276. It's found at page 7, it's an 23 article from the London Free Press that is dated October 24 2nd of 1990. 25 A: Yes, I have it.
561 Q: And you are indicated or quoted in 2 that document, Mr. George, as a spokesman for Aazhoodena. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Aazhoodena Angibowjig. I'm sorry if 5 I mispronounced that. 6 A: We used to Angibowjig. 7 Q: Angibowjig. 8 A: But I don't hear that word really 9 being used much anymore. And we used to call it 10 Aazhoodena Angibowjig. 11 Q: And you'll note that in the second 12 full paragraph you're cited there as spokesman Ron 13 George. 14 A: I never referred to myself as that 15 but I guess that's what the media did. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: It may have been my role. I think 18 that was probably clear that at points I was chosen to 19 speak on behalf of the group. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And this would -- this seems like 22 this would be the appropriate time frame, 1990, that 23 things started to be more crystal I think. 24 Q: Okay. In terms of the -- the other 25 comments that are attributed to you at the bottom of the
571 first column, that a committee was formed to head the 2 drive for settlement of the land claim separately from 3 the Kettle Point and Stony Point Band Council. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. There's nothing in there that 6 you disagree with. That was certainly the position that 7 as spokesman you were obliged to -- to put forward? 8 A: I don't think so. I mean, it may be 9 a matter semantics, but I don't actually refer to -- 10 remember us referring to ourselves as committee per se 11 but, you know, that could be -- I -- I just don't recall 12 that. I -- I don't know what we would have been a 13 committee of. You know, it was just a group of people 14 but however. 15 Q: And at that point it suggested that 16 there were some three hundred (300) members that were 17 being represented by the group in any event. 18 A: Yeah, I think it was pretty 19 substantial at the time. 20 Q: Part of the activities then would be 21 to determine the numbers I gather and there would have 22 been some process that -- that would have been engaged 23 in, in order to come to that figure of three hundred 24 (300) people at that point that were being represented by 25 the group; is that fair?
581 A: I'm sorry I need that question again. 2 Q: Again, I think the indication is, is 3 that there were some three hundred (300) members that are 4 represented by the group? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I take it then that there would 7 have been in terms of some activity to establish that -- 8 that number -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- among the group itself? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And do you recall how that might have 13 occurred or what processes might have been involved? 14 You've certainly told us about the meetings that had 15 happened. 16 A: I think initially we probably would 17 have been very casual in that. We -- we would have been 18 sitting around and talking about it and maybe making 19 notes on who the individuals had been speaking to. 20 I know that we would have specifically 21 identified other members of our extended families. And 22 then we would kind of done a head count and then, you 23 know, certain members, for example, Janet may have -- may 24 have said here's the members of our group and, you know, 25 these people are in agreement with what we're doing.
591 So it was very informal at first. And we 2 would be begin to get a sense of how many people were 3 actually supporting what it is that we were doing. I 4 think later on we -- we engaged more in a -- more of an 5 official. 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON Sorry, Mr. Worme. 7 I just want to make a point here in relation to the 8 article that you're looking at. If you look at the third 9 column, Commissioner and Mr. George, you'll see that it 10 says the group of Stoney Point Natives has hired a Sarnia 11 lawyer David Stoesser to represent them in negotiating 12 with the Federal Government. 13 I believe Mr. George has already indicated 14 to you that he was articling with Mr. Stoesser during 15 this period. So, the Commission should be cautious in 16 relation to some of the activities which naturally he did 17 as a member -- a descendant of Stoney Pointers himself 18 and an active member of the committee but also working 19 with a lawyer in a solicitor/client relationship at that 20 time. 21 And I believe I have those facts and dates 22 correct, do I, Mr. George? 23 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
601 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate that 2 direction from Mr. Henderson and I'll certainly -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll be 4 careful. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Absolutely. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you -- thank 8 you, Mr. Henderson. Thank you, Commissioner. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Without -- without commenting on any 14 activity that you might have taken either as an articling 15 student or in concert with Mr. Stoesser, who was then I 16 take it your principal in -- in and around this relative 17 period. 18 Do you recall whether the elders, who had 19 -- I think you'd said earlier, that had been a motivating 20 force, whether they had discussed amongst themselves how 21 they might achieve their purpose? 22 And again, I don't want you to get into 23 anything that would speak to any privilege that you might 24 be otherwise cloaked with. 25 A: Well, let me say something first.
611 When I -- and I want to go back to something I said, just 2 to clear this up. When I said that Janet George might 3 have -- this was kind of sort of a hypothetical, she 4 didn't do that. 5 I'm just -- just picked a member of the 6 group and said, as we were sitting around, a member of 7 the group might have made reference to the fact that they 8 talked to their family members and their family members 9 were in -- in support of this kind of thing. So I just 10 want to clear that up. 11 I appreciate because of, you know, 12 potential solicitor/client relationships here, that there 13 are things I may not be able to say. However, with 14 respect to, you know, what we were doing, I know that it 15 was important to -- to improve upon information that 16 people had access to, which in turn would enhance their 17 understanding of the issues in more detail. That was -- 18 that was critical to the -- the evolution of the group. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, I 20 wonder if this might be a proper spot to take the morning 21 break? And, perhaps, just before we do that, I'm going 22 to ask that this document be made an exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-220. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-220. 25
621 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-220: Document No. 1008276 Oct 2 02/90. London Free Press 3 article, "Breakaway Indian 4 Group Forms". 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 7 the morning recess now for fifteen (15) minutes -- 8 morning break. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that 18 break, Mr. Commissioner. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: Now, Mr. George, just before the 22 break we were talking about your awareness with respect 23 to the community that you were residing in, that is to 24 say Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point First Nation, 25 the growing awareness that you had and the motivation
631 that you had begun to build in connection with the Stoney 2 Point lands? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I take it that as you were 5 growing up, that that wasn't something that was -- that 6 was apparent as you were growing up? 7 A: The idea of a -- sort of a -- of 8 awareness, or? 9 Q: Well, the idea that there was -- 10 A: Two (2) separate groups? 11 Q: -- two (2) communities? 12 A: No. No -- no, there wasn't. It 13 wasn't sort of a -- sort of a premier point of focus. 14 Q: And can you tell us how that 15 developed, at least in your own mind from what you would 16 have experienced, what you would have heard? 17 A: Well, I think it probably would have 18 developed through more of an enhanced understanding of 19 what some of the specific details of sort of land 20 ownership, who was living on -- on Stoney Point at the 21 time. 22 It would have come from an awareness that 23 at least on the face of the record, would have indicated 24 that when Band elections occurred, there was a sort of a 25 -- a vote for a common Chief, might have -- you know, you
641 might refer to as sort of a Grand Chief. But there was - 2 - appeared to be a -- a member of the people living on 3 Kettle Point that sat on Council, as a Councillor and a 4 member of the people living on Stoney Point that sat on 5 Council as a Councillor. 6 So, I mean, those kinds of things all 7 added to this sense that -- that there was a distinction 8 between the two (2). But when I was growing up, if there 9 was any distinction that was noted, it would have been 10 more related to the fact that there were Georges and 11 there were Bressettes, and that was clear. 12 Q: All right, just on the earlier 13 comment that you had made, you -- you had been made 14 aware, I take it, that there had been a Councillor 15 specifically, at least historically, for Stoney Point 16 community? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is that what I understood you to say? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I want to refer you to a document 21 that had been distributed electronically on the 25th of 22 February, by Ms. Hensel, it is the Hansard's report. The 23 minutes of Proceedings and evidence of the Standing 24 Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, dated Thursday, December 25 the 12th of 1991, and a copy has been provided to the
651 Registrar as well. 2 I wonder firstly, Mr. Commissioner, if we 3 could mark that as an exhibit, and then I wanted to refer 4 Mr. George to page 35 of that, where there is certain 5 comments that are attributed to you. 6 And if you could take a moment to read 7 that first paragraph, commencing in the middle of the 8 page, just under your name. 9 First of all, I take it that is -- that is 10 you, that you had appeared before this Committee on the 11 12th of December, 1991? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is 14 it on? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Page 35. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 35. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And in the middle of the page there's 22 a comment that reads: 23 "Mr. Ronald George. Our information 24 seems to indicate very clearly and 25 we've had to rely on our locatees,
661 people who were there that in 1942, the 2 two (2) Bands in many ways were being 3 treated separately, we had a separate 4 Councillor, though there was a Grand 5 Council that consisted of only three 6 (3) individuals, we had our Council." 7 And that's what you're referring to, just 8 in your previous comments, Mr. George? 9 A: That's correct. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: If I can just go back to 1990, you 14 had attended the funeral of Dan George at the Stoney 15 Point lands? 16 A: Yes, I had. 17 Q: And is there anything that you can 18 tell us about that, in terms of the motivation that you 19 had been describing for us, and your increasing awareness 20 of these issues, how did that, in your mind, fit into the 21 -- to the overall situation? 22 A: Well, I can -- I guess I can give -- 23 tell you what my thoughts were, and what I thought my 24 observations of others were. 25 For me, it was a -- a sort of a -- a
671 physical and symbolic return to the land, that finally, 2 after almost fifty (50) years, someone from our -- our 3 family, someone from our -- our group had finally 4 returned to the land, because that seemed to be one (1) 5 of the more salient dreams of these older people, is to 6 ultimately go back there. 7 And so when Dan George was -- and 8 incidentally, Dan was my uncle, when Dan George was 9 returned there, it was a very important thing to us, for 10 I guess a couple of reasons, number 1 is that -- and it's 11 kind of weird to express, because it was almost like this 12 magic occurred all of a sudden, that we were finally 13 back, you know. That somebody had -- had kind of finally 14 made it. 15 And there's something to be said about 16 that, when all of a sudden this is no longer just 17 somebody else's experience, it's not about somebody 18 else's mother or grandfather, uncle, who they may have 19 witnessed, been married there, we were witnessing it and 20 we were participating it, and so that was very important. 21 And the other thing was that it was very 22 clear that if this was any indicator of some progress, in 23 terms of pursuit of their goals and their dreams, and 24 when I mean their, I mean these old people that I was 25 dealing with, then -- then progress was being made.
681 For me personally, it was a pretty 2 significant thing to occur and with respect to that, I 3 had even recalled taking a container with me and -- and 4 taking some of the soil around where Dan was buried and 5 in taking it off the Base with me, as if to -- to say, 6 you know, we're now in possession of it, you know, we're 7 -- we're connected with it again. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And it was a -- it was symbolically a 10 reminder to me of, you know, sense of ownership. 11 Q: Right. Mr. George, at Tab 10 of the 12 binder in front of you, which is Inquiry document 13 1009780, you are quoted in that. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps I can ask 15 that this be made an exhibit as well, Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-221. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 221. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-221: Hansard Report. Minutes of 22 Proceedings and Evidence of 23 the Standing Committee on 24 Aboriginal Affairs dated 25 Thursday, December 12th,
691 1991. 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I think I had asked 4 earlier, and perhaps I should speak to this now, I'd 5 asked that the Hansard document be made an exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: We'll make that 221 then. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 8 THE REGISTRAR: And this one (1) 222. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 10 Registrar. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-222: Document No. 1009780 Oct 13 15/90. London Free Press 14 article " Burial Renews Hope 15 for Return of Land". 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: It is an article from the London Free 19 Press dated October 15th, 1990. You are quoted there as 20 stating that the permission of the burial was a sign of 21 good will on the part of the Federal Government. 22 You were quoted as acting in a 23 spokesperson capacity for Stoney Pointers? 24 A: Yes. Yes, I did say that. 25 Q: In terms of the -- the lands, you had
701 told us that you had access there as a child? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that were you aware then that 4 there was in fact a graveyard at Stoney Point? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: First of all, as you were -- as you 7 were growing up? 8 A: Yes, I was. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: That would -- that would have been 11 one (1) of the places that we would have frequented, 12 because the graveyard would have -- would have been 13 located just along that road, that was up there. Would 14 have been located just east of where we used to pick 15 morels. 16 Q: Okay. We'll just get this up on the 17 screen. 18 A: So, we would have -- we would have 19 picked morels somewhere in there, and the graveyard was 20 somewhere in here. 21 So, I was aware of that, and we were there 22 frequently. 23 Q: And in terms of the record again, Mr. 24 George, you've -- you've indicated an area that is around 25 -- that -- that is marked as reserve?
711 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Were you made aware, Mr. 3 George, as to whether or not you had any relatives, for 4 example, buried there. Obviously prior to your uncle Dan 5 George? 6 A: Yes, I was aware of it. I knew that 7 there were -- at least this is what I believe, that my -- 8 I think an aunt named Marlene was there. I believe that 9 an uncle named Fletcher was there. 10 I wasn't -- I knew that my grandparents 11 were there somewhere, but I can't say for certainty that 12 I believed they were buried at that site. But I -- I was 13 very clear on the others. 14 Q: And the graveyard being one (1) of 15 the places that you've told us you frequented as a -- as 16 a youngster, is there anything that you can tell us about 17 the fashion in which the -- the graveyard had stood? 18 A: Let me say another thing. I don't 19 know, but in terms of who I believe was there, I may have 20 had -- I may be a little mixed up on this, but I think I 21 had an aunt named Nora that might have been there too. 22 I'm kind of hoping that Aunt Nora's, not from my mother's 23 side of the family, but I think it was my dad's side. 24 In terms of the condition of the -- the 25 graveyard, it certainly wasn't what I would have thought
721 would have been taken properly care of. You know, I was 2 -- when I was a kid, my grandfather and my -- my dad, 3 subsequent to my grandfather, used to care for graveyards 4 in the area. 5 And so they were, for the most part, 6 meticulous in making sure those things were properly 7 taken care of. And as I reflect back on what I saw in 8 the camp, I wouldn't say that it was -- it was properly 9 taken care of. 10 Although I think at times I -- later on, I 11 saw it in an even worse condition. But it -- it wasn't 12 in good condition when I was a kid, and gravestones 13 didn't seem to be properly taken care of. 14 As I recall, there were -- when I -- like 15 I said, you know, thirteen/fourteen (13/14) years old, or 16 however old I was that it was a little bit difficult 17 trying to make out where these people were. But I think 18 there was one (1) gravestone that might have been -- 19 might have clearly indicated my Aunt Marlene was there, 20 or Nora. I just can't be certain on that. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But I knew there was -- there was one 23 (1) that specifically identified this person. And I 24 remember being back there with my dad on occasion, and he 25 would -- he would point to that, just to let me know that
731 it was his sister. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: The other one (1) with respect to 4 Fletcher, and I don't think I ever saw a gravestone for 5 him. 6 Q: But you were told that he was -- he 7 was buried there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I gather from what you've told us, 10 Mr. George, that -- that you have some sense of the -- of 11 the proper manner, or a manner in which graveyards are to 12 be maintained, from what you observed, the meticulous 13 care that your grandfather and your father had provided? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And what you had observed was 16 inconsistent, at least with what they would have done? 17 A: No question about it. 18 Q: And I take it what you would have 19 done? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Before we leave the -- the point of 22 graveyards, have -- had you ever heard at any point, 23 whether growing -- as you were growing up, of a graveyard 24 in what is the -- shown on P-41 as Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park area?
741 A: When I was growing up? I've -- I've 2 actually heard about it a lot since sitting in this room, 3 but prior to the Inquiry I heard about that possibility 4 twice. 5 Q: Can you tell us about that? 6 A: Well, maybe more than twice. But 7 prior to September of 1995, I'd heard about it twice. 8 The first time was, again when I was 9 probably a little bit older than -- you know, when I 10 referred to walking back into the camp, I was probably 11 more sixteen (16) or seventeen (17) years old, that 12 because the George family, that is the brothers and 13 descendants of Robert and Laura George, lived in a little 14 neighbourhood and were in close proximity to each other. 15 It was not uncommon, in fact, it was probably a 16 characteristic of our daily function that we would have 17 been to my Uncle Abe's place, Dan's place, Nug's place, 18 and just wandering back and forth. 19 And I remember on this one (1) occasion, I 20 was over at my Uncle Abe's, and Abe made very quick 21 reference to a graveyard in what we knew the -- to be the 22 Provincial Park, Ipperwash Provincial Park, and my 23 recollection was that was about as far as that discussion 24 want -- went, but we -- we had some other discussions 25 about other things that had nothing to do with that. So
751 he was -- it was like this little history thing that was 2 going on. So I'd heard about it then. 3 Q: There wasn't any detail, I gather? 4 A: No. No, he just said there was a 5 graveyard there. 6 Q: Okay. And he didn't say who might 7 have been buried there -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- or what connection he might have 10 had to -- 11 A: No, he didn't. No. 12 Q: You've indicated that you might have 13 heard about it a couple other times or one (1) other 14 time? 15 A: Well the only other time that I 16 remember was it occurred after the initial occupation of 17 the people to the -- the outlying areas of -- of Camp 18 Ipperwash, and it would have been in -- is this the right 19 map that I should be -- or should it go up, and I can 20 tell you exactly where it was. 21 If I recall correctly, and then of course 22 this map really isn't a very good depiction of it I 23 think, however, I think -- I think the people had kind of 24 moved in around here, and I remember going there one (1) 25 day, and it seemed to me that the most salient site
761 there, where more people were frequenting than others was 2 my Aunt Melva's place. 3 And it -- it -- there was a -- at least 4 one (1) picnic table that sat out to the front of this -- 5 of the camp, that is the -- the campground they had 6 there. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: And I was sitting there with Darryl 9 Stonefish, Darryl Stonefish would be the husband of 10 Cheryl Stonefish, and Cheryl was Melva's daughter. And 11 Darryl had a number of papers with him, and it was there 12 that Darryl had drawn my attention to a burial site at 13 the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 14 I don't recall that we got into any 15 significant discussion about it, but I do know that 16 Darryl had a number of documents, and it was clear to me 17 -- and I wasn't surprised by this, that Darryl was -- had 18 been doing some research. 19 Q: You think that this was in terms of a 20 time frame in early 1993? 21 A: It was soon after the -- soon after 22 the initial occupation in May of 1993. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: As a result of Darryl's communication
771 with you, was there anything said beyond that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Was there any action, for example, 4 proposed? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Just before we leave that, 7 your Uncle Abe had mentioned something to you when you 8 were fifteen (15) or sixteen (16) years of age, did he 9 say where he would have heard this from, in terms of the 10 passing reference that he made to you? 11 A: I think he heard it from Komani, my 12 great grandfather. 13 Q: Okay. And this incident -- 14 A: We were -- we were familiar with who 15 Komani was. You know, I mean it may sound as if we're 16 stretching and looking at it post-active, but his name 17 was always kind of around, you know. And -- and my dad, 18 and I suppose people like Abe would have talked about 19 that openly, because that was their grandfather, you 20 know. 21 Q: Okay. Did they ever, in terms of 22 talking about Komani openly, did they ever indicate where 23 he would have lived, would it have been, for example, in 24 a place where your -- your grandfather had his location 25 ticket?
781 A: I wouldn't have been aware of that. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I wouldn't have had any information 4 on that. 5 Q: You would have been familiar with the 6 Park area, as you were growing up? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: There was a place, we understand, 9 that people would get water there, for example? 10 A: Yeah, it was -- we used to have wells 11 in -- in Kettle Point, and you know, as a kid, we would 12 draw wells with cans or buckets or whatever they were. 13 And of course those would dry up from time 14 to time, so I recall that -- and I at least remember that 15 my dad, who had a pickup truck, and my Uncle Abe, who 16 also always had pickups. Not Abe, sorry, my uncle Bruce, 17 who always had pickup trucks, would have loaded a big 18 metal container on it, a big tank, and we would have went 19 down to the Park and we would have pulled up to the water 20 station, or whatever that is, and fill that up with 21 water, and then we would go back to home and drain that 22 water into the well. That happened frequently. 23 Q: Okay. And during the -- during the 24 course of doing this activity, would you have been in 25 receipt of any information about that area, again, the
791 area that you were getting the water from? 2 A: Not really, no. I mean there was no 3 big issue made out of it, it was just we seemed to have 4 open and ready access to that, at least to the water. 5 Q: All right. And as you began to, I 6 think you -- you said become more motivated, insofar as 7 seeking the return of -- of the -- of the Stoney Point 8 lands, of becoming educated by the elders, who were, I 9 think you said, quite passionate about this, you began in 10 a role, I think it's pretty clear, as a spokesperson? 11 A: I -- I'm -- I have a little problem 12 with when I was a spokesperson and when I wasn't, you 13 know, where I might have been expressing my own views, 14 and you know, I -- I can't with all honesty, say that the 15 media was properly identifying me in that role one way or 16 the other. They may have been writing that I was a 17 spokesperson. It may have -- may well be that I was. I 18 might have just been expressing my own views -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- as a -- 21 Q: As a community member? 22 A: Yeah. Yeah. But certainly my 23 awareness of these issues was enhanced with more 24 information that I got. 25 Q: Okay. And I take it, given what
801 you've told us about -- about the comments that were made 2 to you, which seemed to be rather infrequent, that the 3 fact the burial sites, whether at the -- at the Park, or 4 indeed at the military reserve, was that a major focus, 5 or -- or was it a subordinate focus? 6 A: Can you ask me that question again? 7 Q: I'm not sure I can, but let me -- let 8 me try. 9 It doesn't seem to me, from what you've 10 told us, that the fact that there were grave sites there, 11 was a major focus in terms of seeking the return of the 12 land? 13 A: It was never mentioned. It wasn't a 14 major focus to me. Like I said, I -- I'd heard about it 15 a couple of times, but it was not, at least from this 16 particular group, it was not a focus that I recall. 17 Q: And as a community member, observing 18 the -- the passion of these people, what -- what would 19 you say was the focus? 20 A: Number 1 is the separation of the 21 Band, was a clear focus of theirs and the rightful return 22 of the land, which would have included things like 23 compensation. But all of those things seemed to have 24 been directly related to the idea that these people 25 wanted to go back and to re-establish, somehow, either
811 themselves or their families in that -- in that 2 community. 3 That seemed to be more salient than 4 anything, those I would think would be, I would 5 characterize it as the goals, you know. 6 Q: Okay. And when they talked about the 7 return of the land, can you tell us whether -- when they 8 spoke about the land, did that include what has been 9 marked off as the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 10 A: No, we never had those discussions 11 about the return of that land. 12 Q: During this time -- 13 A: And I -- and I'm talking about, as I 14 recall it, I'm talking about the -- the time frame, when 15 this group of older people, were probably the more 16 salient individuals involved in the pursuit of the 17 returning the land. 18 Q: In your capacity as a member of that 19 group, which I -- I take it you were? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you were motivated by the 22 teachings and by the discussions and the passion that 23 they had exhibited? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Were you involved in that capacity
821 with any discussions between that group and the Kettle 2 and Stony Point Band Council or administration? 3 A: That's hard for me to -- to recall 4 with that group. I don't recall actually formal meetings 5 and stuff like that, but I -- I know there must have been 6 times when we were communicating. We had to be 7 communicating our -- our position. 8 I can't specifically point to a time when 9 I might have been involved in a meeting with the group 10 and I'm saying that because that's -- that's my recall. 11 I'm not saying it didn't occur. 12 Q: Right. You've told us earlier, Mr. 13 George, that at the time -- well, perhaps I should ask 14 this, at the time when the occupation occurred in -- in 15 May of '93, you weren't part of the group that went in? 16 A: No, I wasn't. 17 Q: I think you told us earlier that you 18 were practising law around that point in time? 19 A: 1993? Yes, I was. 20 Q: And you would have been practising -- 21 you would have had your law practice at the Kettle Point 22 community? 23 A: Yeah, I actually had a number of 24 sites where I was practising law out of and Kettle Point 25 was one (1) of my offices.
831 Q: Residing there as well? 2 A: Well, that was -- I had a -- I had a 3 -- my office was made out of a house and I had converted 4 a couple of the rooms into office-type facilities and I 5 had other rooms that were more residence-type facilities, 6 but I had a place in Sarnia as well, which would have 7 been my main residence. 8 Q: And you would have learned about the 9 move onto the Army Camp -- onto the range area that 10 you've described for us? Can you tell us when you heard 11 that and what you thought when -- when you learned this? 12 A: Well, I -- I don't really recall how 13 I had heard about it, but I can tell you I was surprised 14 by it. 15 Q: Okay. Why were you surprised by it? 16 A: Because I didn't know about it, 17 that's all. 18 Q: You had been involved in discussions 19 with the group, you'd been listening to discussions of 20 the group prior to this. 21 A: Yes, I had been involved with 22 discussions. The group had expanded, I think, by that 23 time, by 1993, because when you look back at my 24 beginnings in the middle to late '80s and then refer to 25 some of these documents like the, you know, articles in
841 the newspaper in 1990, I was probably more actively 2 involved with a group that was fairly focussed on what 3 their goals and objectives were. 4 By '93 my recollection tells my things had 5 seemed to have changed substantially. There were more 6 people involved that wouldn't have been necessarily 7 involved with the group in the first stages of my 8 involvement. 9 Q: All right. We -- 10 A: So -- so, I guess I'm saying this, 11 yes, I'm -- I was having discussion with people around 12 that timeframe, but I wasn't involved in every discussion 13 that was going on. That was very clear to me. 14 Q: Okay. Fair enough. The -- the -- 15 we've heard evidence that there were meetings with 16 respect to an occupation that -- that should or ought to 17 and, in fact, did occur? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You had no role in that? 20 A: Meetings with who? 21 Q: Well, meetings among the -- the 22 Stoney Point Group, among the people that eventually went 23 in. 24 A: Oh, no, I -- I don't recall every 25 being involved in discussions about occupation.
851 Q: If those kinds of discussions came 2 up, did you have a particular view on that as a -- as a 3 tactic? 4 A: Yeah. I'm -- I'm not prone to 5 occupy. I'm not prone to see that as a means to 6 achieving your goals. I think even one (1) of the 7 articles that you referred me to -- it might have been 8 the first one and if you don't mind I'd like to just 9 refer to that. 10 Q: Yes, not at all, I think I referred 11 you to Tab 7. 12 A: Yeah, that's the article. 13 Q: It's marked as P-220. 14 A: Yeah. And it shows that in that 15 third column, it said: 16 "George said that natives aren't 17 proposing a civil disobedience or 18 confrontations to push their claim." 19 I've personally never been one that's 20 necessarily prone to pursue your interests that way. 21 Q: Perhaps we can just read the balance 22 of that into the record -- 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: -- if you wish, Mr. George. 25 A: Yeah. I'll start from the beginning
861 again. You mean the balance of that little snippet out 2 of there? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: "George said that natives aren't 5 proposing civil disobedience or 6 confrontation to push their claim. He 7 said they believed the Government 8 policy now favours negotiation over 9 litigation. In hope to get a new round 10 of talks started soon we want a 11 peaceful and just resolution." 12 I mean, that seems to be more in-line with 13 my kind of thinking on the issue of -- of occupation and 14 civil disobedience, at least that form of civil 15 disobedience. 16 And I think, you know, I've -- I've done a 17 lot of lectures; I've had the wonderful opportunity to 18 teach a lot of young people in -- in legal academic 19 institutions. 20 And I begin almost every presentation that 21 I have, and there may be some exceptions to this with a 22 description of myself as a soft activist. I believe in 23 pushing the agenda forward, and I'm very candid about 24 that, when it comes to Aboriginal issues. 25 But I like to take the opportunity to
871 talk, and I talk and speak extensively. I could do 2 lectures, a hundred (100) a year or more, and I always 3 start with that beginning, that I would prefer to write 4 and talk about things, because I think information is the 5 primary key to enhancing understanding and awareness, and 6 then once that occurs, then you have a foundation upon 7 which you can build upon the pursuit of your interests. 8 So, to -- to suggest that I may have been 9 at a meeting and participated in proposing occupation or 10 civil disobedience, I -- I would have some problem with 11 that. But I will say that that isn't saying that I 12 wouldn't have been at a meeting, I just probably would 13 not have encouraged that. 14 Q: Yeah. I hope I wasn't suggesting 15 that. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: I meant simply to inquire of you 18 whether you recall any such meetings going on. But 19 clearly your position in 1990 -- 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: -- is quoted in that article -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- is consistent with your position 24 even today? 25 A: Yes.
881 Q: After the occupation took place, did 2 you have occasion to go down to those lands, and if so, 3 what was your purpose, what -- what was -- 4 A: After '93? Yes, I -- yeah, I'd been 5 there and -- well, it seemed to be, you know, if I look 6 back on it, in terms of the purpose, I -- I would have 7 went there, I think frequently. And by frequently, you 8 know, maybe once every couple of weeks or something. 9 It seemed to me like it was -- it felt in 10 a way like it felt when I was a kid, that you could 11 finally go back in there without having to be subject to 12 somebody else's approval and the parameters that existed 13 by a fence. So, I felt kind of free to do that. 14 And again, if you -- if you think about 15 it, from my perspective, at least for me personally, we 16 had come from -- we, I mean the people, had come from a 17 point where you know, in 1990 Dan George finally returns, 18 and -- and now the -- you know, we had access to it. 19 So, I would go at times and just ride 20 around. Most of the time I'd go visit at my Aunt Melva's 21 place there, and I can't recall who would have been there 22 from time to time, but it seems to me that she was always 23 there. And my cousin Marcia George was there a lot. 24 Glenn was there a lot, Glenn George. So you would just 25 go visit.
891 I don't recall going and doing too much of 2 anything else. I remember going at -- on a couple of 3 occasions and going back to the -- the inland lakes, the 4 ones that are more north in the property, and -- and you 5 know, in some kind of funny way you would kind of reflect 6 upon sort of the -- the peace and tranquillity that you 7 maybe felt when you were a -- a kid. 8 So, it was like this kind of connection 9 back with it. And I know that sounds warm and fuzzy, but 10 that's the way it was. That's what -- that's what it was 11 for me most of the time. 12 But, I would also go -- I recall going 13 there to a meeting one (1) day -- one (1) night, that was 14 -- that's the only real recollection I have of a meeting 15 there that I attended, that was a formal-type thing. 16 Q: And where was this meeting at? 17 A: It was at that little -- it was at 18 the new building they had constructed, and it was a 19 Church or -- supposed to be a Church anyway, and it 20 turned up there was meetings there, and you guys have 21 subsequently referred to it as Argument Hall, but I never 22 knew it as that, though there was some of that going on 23 in there, that's not what I knew it to be. 24 Q: All right. You recall when it was 25 that you would have attended a meeting there?
901 A: No. 2 Q: And can you -- 3 A: It was, obviously, after '93, but, I 4 can't say in detail, probably sooner, closer to May '93 5 than not. 6 Q: Do you know the nature of the 7 meeting, the agenda that is? 8 A: My recollection is they were just 9 talking about, you know, the land and the return of the 10 land. And there were again some of the older people 11 there. My dad was there, I know that and... 12 Q: You took on then a more formal role 13 in the -- in a claims type of process as we understand 14 and I don't want you to get into the solicitor/client 15 relationship, but, can you in a general way describe what 16 your role was? 17 A: I'm really sketchy on, Number 1, when 18 that occurred, but I -- my role would have been just to, 19 sort of, coordinate, you know, efforts or materials. I 20 think to some extent I may have been involved in the 21 strategic sort of part of it, the building of some of the 22 strategies that we would use. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And I think trying to understand the 25 process was critical to us, too. I mean, when you look
911 at that letter that -- or the article that we just looked 2 at, it says that he believes that the government policy 3 now favours negotiation over litigation. And I, you know 4 -- kind of causes me to remember that we -- part of this 5 was happening because we were beginning to understand a 6 bit of the claims process, you know, in that maybe there 7 were some opportunities. 8 So, I would that would probably be the 9 basis of my role. 10 Q: At Tab 8 in the materials in front of 11 you, Mr. George, it's Inquiry Document 1007627. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: It's an article dated July 21st, 1993 14 from the Sarnia Observer, entitled, "Stoney Point Members 15 Promise Halt of Toll Collection at Ipperwash Park." 16 And approximately the middle of the second 17 para -- the second column the third full paragraph you 18 are quoted there as the Band lawyer? 19 A: Yeah. I don't know what that would 20 mean. Maybe it -- maybe it means an Indian lawyer. I 21 wasn't operating for any -- I don't think for a Band. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I don't think I was functioning in 24 that capacity. You know what I mean, the distinction 25 between the solicitor for individual clients or -- or
921 charged persons or a solicitor for a Band, if that's 2 suggesting I was solicitor for a Band, I don't know that 3 that was true. 4 Q: So, it -- it underscores at least, 5 the difficulty that you would have had, I think, and 6 perhaps others in looking at the role that you might have 7 played back then. You had many, many hats. 8 And it would appear, at least, in the 9 context of this article, that you were acting 10 specifically there on behalf of an individual and we've 11 heard his testimony here -- 12 A: Or individuals, yeah. 13 Q: -- or individuals. 14 A: -- yeah, yeah. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I don't -- I recall because... 17 Q: And I think the next article -- 18 A: Yeah -- 19 Q: -- perhaps I can ask that to be made 20 an exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-223. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit P-223. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-223: Document No. 1007627 July 25 21/93. Sarnia Observer
931 article, "Stoney Point 2 Members Promise Halt of Toll 3 Collection at Ipperwash 4 Park". 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: And perhaps the next article at Tab 8 9, Mr. George, may make that clear. That's Inquiry 9 Document 1007627. 10 A: Yes. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps I can ask 12 that to be made an Exhibit, as well? 13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-224. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: P-224. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-224: Document No. 1007627 July 17 20/93. Sarnia Observer 18 article, "Hearing Rescheduled 19 for Stoney Point Natives". 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: And in that instance, it is again 23 from the Sarnia Observer dated July 20th of '93, it looks 24 like the day before. The heading reads, "Hearing 25 Rescheduled for Stoney Point Natives."
941 And there you are identified specifically 2 as the lawyer for the named individuals who were alleged 3 toll collectors? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Now, that seems more consistent with 7 what I may have done, that is to actually act on behalf 8 of individuals who were the subject of these processes. 9 Q: And I note that in the second column 10 towards the bottom of that, the -- it reads: 11 "The Stoney Point Group has broken away 12 from the Federally recognized Kettle 13 and Stony Point Band. Negotiations 14 mediated by the Indian Commission of 15 Ontario have been launched between the 16 Federal Government and the Kettle and 17 Stony Point Band to try and find a 18 lasting solution to the dispute over 19 Camp Ipperwash." 20 Is that something that you recall, Mr. 21 George, in your personal capacity, that is, as a member 22 of the Stoney Point Group? 23 A: The only thing I recall about that 24 was that I -- I know there was some contact that had been 25 made with the Indian Commission of Ontario and something
951 suggests to me that Philip Goulais was Indian 2 Commissioner at the time. The precise nature of what it 3 is was occurring or what was anticipated to have been 4 agreed to by whoever the parties might have been -- I -- 5 I'm not really clear on that. 6 I don't recall every going to negotiations 7 that were mediated by the Indian Commission of Ontario. 8 I don't recall that. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Again, it doesn't mean that I wasn't, 11 I just don't recall that happening. 12 Q: At some point after 1993, Mr. George, 13 I take it that you began to diminish your role, whatever 14 -- whatever capacity that was up to that point with the - 15 - with the group that you were with. 16 A: I -- I would say by this time it was 17 starting to diminish, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And can you tell us about that 19 and the reasons therefore? And again, this is, you know, 20 I don't want you to comment on the capacity that you 21 would have served in -- in -- as solicitor. 22 A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I -- and certainly 23 I won't do that, but I can tell you what my personal 24 feelings were. 25 Q: Yes.
961 A: And again, that -- that's where it 2 was sometimes -- as I look back on it, it was -- it was - 3 - it was difficult to sort of move forward because I had 4 my personal views about the land and the issues that were 5 the subject of the goals that that group was trying to 6 achieve. 7 But, I know very clearly that from my 8 perspective, the goals and the objectives that would be 9 used to -- to reach those goals was clear and -- and they 10 were primarily undisturbed or altered when this group 11 that I had initially engaged in with -- were sort of the 12 -- sort or more premier players in it? 13 And at one (1) point in time, the -- well, 14 I began to see a lot of what I thought was anger and 15 frustration developing amongst the group and I found that 16 very difficult. But, I also think that the objectives to 17 achieving the goals may have changed significantly to 18 persuade me that this wasn't really how I would have 19 wanted to engage myself. 20 So, it was becoming problematic. 21 Q: Can you give us a sense of -- of what 22 the objectives and goals were that you understood before? 23 A: Yeah. I felt that the goals of the - 24 - of the group and, of course, you know I -- it's a 25 subject in a sort of improved recollection of it --
971 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, I 2 wonder if I might have a word with Commission Counsel? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 4 Mr. Henderson, I can't hear you unless you -- I just 5 can't hear you from over you. 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I wonder if I 7 might have a word with Commission Counsel before -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- Mr. George 10 continues with his answer? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: We don't need a few 13 minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, 15 that's... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: Mr. George, I've put in front of you 23 a letter dated August 3rd of 1994. This is part of the 24 documents that have been produced in hard copy and 25 provided to Counsel for the parties this morning. This
981 is part of the production that we had received from you, 2 Mr. George. 3 The first letter is addressed to the 4 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation to the attention of 5 Chief Tom Bressette. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You have -- you have that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: There is -- and it encloses a copy of 10 correspondence bearing the same date, to Carl Otto 11 George. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. If I can ask that that be made 14 an exhibit, please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-255 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 17 exhibit for both letters or separate? 18 THE REGISTRAR: One (1) exhibit. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-255(a): Ronald C. George's letter to 21 Chief Tom Bressette, Aug 22 O3/94. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: I do have another letter that I was
991 going to refer to and perhaps it would be easier to make 2 it one (1) exhibit -- the both letters as one (1) 3 exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 6 them as one (1) exhibit? You look like you're 7 uncomfortable -- 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: No, I'm fine with 9 that, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 That's fine. I'm sorry, what's the Exhibit Number? 12 MR. DONALD WORME: P-225. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-225. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two twenty- 15 five. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT P-225(b): Ronald C. George's letter to Carl 18 Otto George, Aug 03/94. 19 20 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Now that you have 21 that in front of you, Commissioner, if I may, you'll see 22 that the -- the second letter to Chief Carl George or 23 Tolsma, is a letter clearly from a solicitor to his own 24 client. 25 The reason that that was produced is
1001 because a copy of it was sent, I suppose, by way of a 2 Notice of Change or something, to Chief Bressette, who 3 was clearly not a client. So, the -- the privilege to 4 that extent went forward. 5 If you look at the letter to Chief George, 6 which would otherwise, of course, had been privileged, 7 you'll see, I believe in the second paragraph, that the 8 witness then as -- as barrister, refers to the reason, or 9 one of the reasons or one of the factors influencing his 10 termination of the solicitor/client relationship at that 11 point, which I think will be helpful to you also in due 12 course. 13 One (1) of the reasons talks about goals 14 and objectives changing. Why I interfered with My 15 Friend, or interrupted My Friend earlier, of course, is 16 he was questioning Mr. George as to goals and objectives. 17 Our position is, and has been communicated 18 to Commissioner Counsel that, insofar as goals and 19 objectives were relevant to the solicitor/client 20 relationship between himself and the Stoney Point group, 21 that would be forbidden territory. 22 So, I just wanted to put it all in context 23 of why the documents are there, -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- why we're not
1011 claiming privilege insofar as the letter to Mr. George, 2 but simply because that letter went to Chief Bressette, 3 we're not saying that we can go behind the letter to 4 Chief Carl. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Now, 6 Chief, you can steer us through this without getting into 7 difficulty. 8 THE WITNESS: I -- 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I will be 10 interested to watch. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 Okay. We have two (2) letters, I think it would be 13 easier for reference to make one (1) 225(a) and one (1) 14 225(b) otherwise we'll confuse them, whichever you want 15 to be (a) and (b). 16 I understand what you're saying, Mr. 17 Henderson. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah. And let me -- 19 and let me say as well, Mr. Commissioner, that we did 20 have this discussion. I think I understand the point 21 that My Friend makes and I agree entirely. I do not 22 intend to pursue that -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: -- that avenue as I 25 appreciate that that is privileged and ought not to be
1021 treaded upon. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. the 3 letter to Kettle and Stony can be 225(a) or should it be 4 the other way around? Which is (a) and (b) or does it 5 make any difference? 6 THE REGISTRAR: Letter to Chief Tom 7 Bressette will be 225(a) and to Carl Otto George will be 8 225(b). 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: And suffice it to say that 225(b), 13 Mr. George, is an indication that you were terminating 14 your -- your role as legal Counsel at that time. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I take it that in -- in spite of that 17 you would have continued to have some connection with the 18 land and indeed the people there who were -- many of whom 19 you're related to? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You would have continued to visit 22 there from time to time? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And although you were not necessarily 25 an active OPP member, you would have had an ongoing
1031 relationship with the Ontario Provincial Police; is that 2 -- is that fair at all? 3 A: Well, I would have had a relationship 4 to the extent that I had family. I had other members of 5 the community who were OPP members. I had lots of 6 friends who were OPP officers. And I think that probably 7 would have been about it at this point in time, in 1994. 8 Q: And during that time can you recall 9 whether there were any meetings with the OPP to discuss 10 the occupation? 11 A: I don't specifically recall any 12 meetings with the OPP. I may have seen the OPP around 13 and I might have, you know, had some discussion with 14 them. 15 I'm not sure, but the -- the case where I 16 have some faint recollection was there was a -- there was 17 a -- a shack or something that burned down and if you 18 could put that map up there, I'll show you where this had 19 occurred. 20 And I'm not really clear on, you know, 21 where it is, but if -- if you were to -- if the people 22 were here, there -- there was a gate somewhere around 23 here where they had -- where entry was -- was free to 24 come up 21 Highway into there and then there was a road 25 that goes back to one (1) of the ranges and beside that
1041 there's a -- there were a couple of buildings along that 2 road. 3 Q: Just for the record, you're 4 indicating along -- what's marked on P-40 as the rifle 5 range? 6 A: Yeah. And so there was a road that 7 went back to the -- the back part of the range and there 8 were a couple of buildings here or something and I think 9 one (1) of those buildings burned down one (1) time and 10 so the -- 11 Q: East of the rifle range? 12 A: I thought it was west. It would have 13 been the west side of the road. 14 Q: All right, thank you. 15 A: I could be wrong on that, but that's 16 what I thought. Ad I remember that, you know, there was - 17 - it was -- it was during the day time and there was a 18 kind of information flowing around the community about 19 this and I remember driving there and there were some 20 OPP officers there and there were Army people there as 21 well. And maybe the fire department, I can't remember 22 what fire department might have been there. 23 Q: Did you have any interaction with 24 them other than making that observation? 25 A: I don't think so. I don't think I
1051 was there in -- in kind of -- any kind of an official 2 capacity. 3 Q: We've heard others testify here, Mr. 4 George, about allegations of a helicopter shooting. In 5 fact, a witness, Carl Tolsma testified on February the 6 9th at pages 145 to 160 of the transcript that he was 7 contacted at his residence in Kettle Point by your late 8 father, taken to the Camp at the range of Abraham George 9 who made certain admissions with respect to this 10 allegation of a helicopter shooting. 11 Do you have any knowledge about that at 12 all? 13 A: The only knowledge I have about that 14 comes from information that came out of this Inquiry. I 15 didn't hear about that before. 16 Q: And you've indicated on one (1) 17 occasion at least, when you would have made observations 18 of military personnel on the base, did you have any 19 interaction with them, or see others that were in 20 occupation of the -- the range in contact with military 21 personnel? 22 A: On occasion I would see military 23 personnel around. I remember more clearly that when we 24 had driven through, we -- when I had -- I'm not sure 25 anybody was with me, when I had driven through the -- the
1061 camp and had gone down -- I'm not sure how that works, 2 but I knew we came up this road, I think it is, and 3 somehow we either went up this road or this -- I think it 4 was this road on this occasion. 5 We got down around here. If those are the 6 inland lakes, I know we were -- well, maybe it was here. 7 Anyway, somewhere up here, to the north part of the -- to 8 the -- the Stoney Point, and that would have been south 9 of the -- on the roadway south of the inland lakes, there 10 were some army people there. And they had stopped me, 11 and I'm not sure who was with me, and they'd got into 12 some sort of idle chitchat with us, but very benevolent. 13 Q: Okay. And in terms of that chitchat 14 or any other interactions, was there ever any sense that 15 they wanted you out of there or wanted the other people 16 who were in occupation, out of -- 17 A: Not that I witnessed. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I never did -- I don't -- I think 20 most of those -- those -- that interaction occurred 21 outside of this -- this main compound. 22 Q: During any of that time, Mr. George, 23 throughout the time period that you were visiting with -- 24 with relatives and other people in occupation at the 25 range, did you see any firearms in their possession?
1071 A: No, I hadn't. 2 Q: Did you have any discussions with 3 them about whether that was an appropriate thing to have 4 or not? 5 A: Never had those discussions. 6 Q: We've had evidence that people would 7 hunt from time to time there, and they would use firearms 8 to hunt. Were you aware of any of that, or where they 9 might have stored such firearms? 10 A: In that -- during that time frame? 11 Q: During the time that you were there? 12 A: Prior to 1995, sort of thing? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: No, I -- I would have suspected they 15 would have been hunting, but there was never -- I never 16 had any clear evidence of that. I'm just saying that, 17 because I assumed there was lots of deer in that bush, so 18 I assume people would have hunted. But that -- that was 19 never discussed with me. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, I 21 would be proposing to move to a -- a new area, I wonder 22 if this might be an appropriate time for the lunch break? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 24 ideal. Let's adjourn for lunch now, and reconvene at 25 2:15.
1081 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 2 adjourned until 2:15. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 12:59 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 2:17 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, if 10 I might address you briefly before we recommence Mr. 11 George's evidence. I spoke with Mr. Worme briefly before 12 lunch. As you may be aware, Commissioner, your senior 13 Counsel and I have two (2) sessions this evening, after 14 the close of the Hearings themselves. 15 And I was asking if it might be possible 16 for the Commission to adjourn at four o'clock today, 17 rather than the normal 4:30, where we would -- where we 18 would be going. Otherwise, Mr. Worme, I believe has had 19 some discussions, I've informally canvassed other 20 Counsel with respect to a four o'clock adjournment and I 21 can indicate the suggestion met little resistance. 22 So, if that would be satisfactory to the 23 Commission, I think certainly I would appreciate that, 24 and other Counsel I'm sure will find some use for the 25 time.
1091 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 2 have any objection to that, do you, Mr. Worme? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: No -- no, we don't. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 7 how much we can get done between now and then. What we 8 might do is not take a break, we'll just go straight 9 through. Would that make up some time? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: I think it probably 11 would, Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: Mr. George, I just wanted to refer 16 you to a number of documents which I've placed in front 17 of you. These are parts of the documents that were 18 supplied by yourself. 19 You had referred earlier in your testimony 20 to the reliance that you had on the fact that at least 21 historically, it was your view, that there was a 22 Councillor that was elected specifically for Stoney Point 23 and Councillors for Kettle Point. 24 The document at the top of that pile in 25 front of you dated July 4th, of 1940 speaks to that. Do
1101 you recognize that document first of all? 2 A: Yes I do. 3 Q: And is that the document that you 4 were relying on, in terms of coming to that conclusion, 5 as well -- as well as, of course the evidence of the 6 locatees that you spoke about before the Standing 7 Committee on Aboriginal Affairs? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I wonder if we could have that marked 10 as an exhibit please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 226, Your 12 Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 226. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-226: Letter to Department of Mines 16 and Resources, Indian Affairs 17 Branch Re: Election, Kettle 18 and Stony Point Reserves, 19 July 04/90. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: The next document on there is what I 23 understand, Mr. George, to be the brief that was prepared 24 in connection with your attendance at the Standing 25 Committee on Aboriginal Affairs. The date on that is
1111 December 11th, 1991. 2 It's entitled, The Case of the Stoney 3 Point Reserve Number 43, a Brief of Fact and Argument. 4 A: Yes. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Can I have that marked 6 as an Exhibit, as well, please? 7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-227. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-227. Yes, 9 Ms. Esmonde...? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: I think My Friend Ms. 11 Esmonde has indicated that this perhaps may already be an 12 Exhibit P-51. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 17 same thing? 18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it is P-51. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: If that is the case, 21 then I'll withdraw that. 22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1121 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Mr. George, we know from the document 3 that has been filed and just marked here that you acted 4 as legal Counsel at least up until August 3rd of 1994. 5 Do you have any recollection in that time 6 of dealing with or negotiating with one, E.E. Hobbs? 7 A: No, I don't. That doesn't mean it 8 didn't happen, I just don't have any recollection of it. 9 Q: I understand that, sir. And as -- we 10 have -- we have evidence and there is a document that has 11 been marked as P-205 in these Proceedings. It purports 12 to be a list of Stoney Point members in attendance at a 13 meeting in Toronto, Ontario dated July 22nd of 1993. 14 There's a number of individuals that are - 15 - that have their names and -- and what appears to be 16 phone numbers on there. 17 Can you tell us first of all, sir, whether 18 you recall attending such a meeting in Toronto and what 19 that was in respect to? 20 A: In July of -- 21 Q: July of 1993? 22 A: Yes, I recall going to the meeting 23 and it was -- I was also a little bit in -- on 24 reflection, I'm a little bit unclear on why we were 25 there. I remember that we had anticipated that we would
1131 meet with Regional Vice Chief Gord Peters of the Chiefs 2 of Ontario. 3 And to the best of my recollection there 4 was some very positive feelings about why we were going 5 there and what would be accomplished, but I can't be 6 really certain as to why we were doing that. But, I do 7 recall going to the -- to that meeting and there were a 8 good number of Stoney Point people there at the time. 9 Q: You've had a chance to see that list 10 and you can identify your name on it? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And there was a working 13 relationship as between the Kettle Point Chief and 14 Council and the Stoney Point Group throughout that time 15 period, that is to say '93 to '94? 16 A: I can't say that I recall that there 17 was a working relationship for that long period of time. 18 No. We may have striving for one. 19 Q: All right. The next document in 20 front of you is a memorandum, it's addressed to Liz 21 Thunder of Chippewas Kettle Point and Mr. Maynard George, 22 Chippewas of Stoney Point from Michael Sherry, legal 23 counsel, dated July 14th, of 1993 entitled, Agreement on 24 Working Relations -- Relationships, pardon me. Do you -- 25 A: Yes, yes.
1141 Q: -- do you recognize that document and 2 it is some three (3) pages long bearing the date July 3 14th, again, 1993? 4 A: Yes, I faintly recall having -- 5 having this document. 6 Q: I wonder if I can ask that that be 7 marked as an exhibit, please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: That is P-227. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 227 now. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-227: Memorandum to Ms. Liz Thunder 12 and Mr. Maynard George, 13 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 14 Point respectively from 15 Michael Sherry, Legal 16 Counsel, July 14/93 Re: 17 Agreement on working 18 relationships. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And in connection with that, there is 22 another document bearing the date July 24th, 1993 23 entitled, Agreement on Working Relationships from those 24 on Stoney Point Number 43 to those on Kettle Point Number 25 44.
1151 And it would see to me at least, sir, and 2 perhaps tell me if -- if that is correct or not, but it 3 looks to be, perhaps, a rolling draft; is that fair? 4 A: This particular one -- July 24th, 5 '93? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: A rolling draft? What do you mean by 8 that? 9 Q: Well, I -- I guess I should try -- 10 A: It's executed. 11 Q: -- and be more clear. From P-227, 12 which was dated July 14th, of '93, this document -- the 13 second document that I'm referring to marked July 24th is 14 some ten (10) days later. 15 A: Okay, P, what? What -- what is P -- 16 Q: P-227 is the document that I referred 17 to earlier, the one addressed to Ms. Liz Thunder -- 18 A: Oh, okay. 19 Q: -- being in agreement on working 20 relationships. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I guess the question that I'm 23 asking and perhaps you -- you know, maybe you can't tell 24 us, but the July 24th document -- 25 A: Yes.
1161 Q: Can you tell us whether or not that 2 is in relation to -- 3 A: I -- I think I understand what you're 4 saying now with respect to the rolling thing, so you're - 5 - you're associating that -- connecting it with this 6 other document and it's -- it's en -- it's ensued. 7 Q: Am I right in trying to make that 8 connection? 9 A: I -- I don't really know that that's 10 how that worked. I mean, when you look on the face of 11 it, it looks as if that may in fact be the case. But I 12 can't say from my own personal recollection that that's 13 what happened here. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. Can I have 15 that second document marked as well, please? 16 THE REGISTRAR: That is P-228 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-228: Agreement on working 19 relationships from those on 20 Stoney Point No. 43 to those 21 on Kettle Point No. 44 July 22 24/93. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: We have as well been provided a copy
1171 of a Petition and it bears Inquiry Document 9000068. 2 It is a copy of a Petition which makes 3 certain demands and it is -- there's a stamp date on it 4 of February 4th of 1994, addressed to the Right 5 Honourable Jean Chretien, Prime Minister, Ministry of 6 Indian Affairs Canada, Ministry of Department of National 7 Defence Canada, and Chief Tom Bressette of the Kettle 8 Point First Nation. 9 A: Is that something I'm supposed to 10 have? I don't have it in this package. 11 Q: I'm not sure that it's in that 12 package. I'm -- I'm going to put it up on the screen, if 13 we can. The Document Number on that again is 9000068. 14 There is a previous document to that and 15 perhaps I will refer to that one first, Mr. George. I 16 don't... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I'm sorry, Commissioner. 21 A: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: The first is a letter under your hand
1181 to the Prime Minister, enclosing a copy of a petition, 2 Mr. George? 3 A: Dated March 2nd? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Yes. Yes. 6 Q: And the document that I wanted to put 7 on the screen is a copy of that petition. We'll see if 8 we can get this up there. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And can you recall, Mr. George, if 13 the document that I've put in front of you bearing 14 Inquiry Document Number 9000068 is the Petition that was 15 enclosed with your letter? 16 A: Ninety thousand (90000) and -- oh, I 17 see. 18 Q: Yes, it's -- 19 A: I think so. 20 Q: Okay. And if that is not an exhibit, 21 I would ask that that be made an exhibit. That is Mr. 22 George's letter dated March 2nd, to the Prime Minister, 23 together with a copy of the Petition. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As one (1) 25 exhibit; the letter and the Petition?
1191 MR. DONALD WORME: As one exhibit, yes. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-229. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-229. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-229: Document No. 9000068. 6 Petition from Ron C. George 7 to Prime Minister, March 8 02/94 requesting return of 9 Camp Ipperwash property to 10 the Stoney Point Indians. 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 13 Petition on the screen now, is it, Mr. Worme? 14 MR. DONALD WORME: That is. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's it. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And you should have, as well, in 22 front of you a copy of a letter under the letterhead of 23 the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development 24 dated June 13th, 1993, addressed to yourself under the 25 hand of, Ronald A. Irwin?
1201 A: Yes. 2 Q: Pardon me -- did I say, '93? It's 3 dated July 13th, 1994? 4 A: Yes -- June -- June 13th, 1994. 5 Q: June 13th, 1994. 6 And if I can have that marked as well, Mr. 7 Commissioner? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-230. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-230: Letter to Ronald C. George 11 from Ronald A. Irwin PC, MP 12 Minister of Indian Affairs 7 13 Northern Development, June 14 13/94 Re: March 02/94 15 Petition. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Lastly, Mr. George, there is a 19 document entitled, Fiduciary Relationship with the Crown 20 with Aboriginal Peoples, Implementation and Management 21 Issues, a Guide for Managers. 22 It would appear to be a report -- it's 23 titled, it should say, a Report of an Interdepartmental 24 Working Group to the committee of Deputy Ministers on 25 Justice and Legal Affairs, dated July of 1993. Is that
1211 something that you recognize, at all? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And I would simply ask, Mr. 4 Commissioner, that this be made a Commission document? 5 So if we could mark that as an Exhibit? 6 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit would be P- 7 231. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-231: Fiduciary Relationship of the 10 Crown with Aboriginal 11 Peoples: Implementation and 12 Management Issues. A guide 13 for managers, July '93. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: I just wanted to take you then, Mr. 17 George, beyond the point of time that we've since been 18 talking about. In July of 1995, you'll be aware that the 19 barracks or the built-up area of Camp Ipperwash was then 20 occupied, I take it you became aware of that, at some 21 point? 22 A: Yes, I was. 23 Q: And can you tell us how it was that 24 you became aware of that and what involvement, if any, 25 you might have had?
1221 A: I wasn't involved in it myself. But, 2 I think I became aware of it through being notified on 3 Kettle Point, by someone. 4 Q: Okay. You've earlier told us about 5 your views on that kind of activity I think. I take it - 6 - well -- were you privy to any discussions in advance of 7 that action taking place? 8 A: No I wasn't. 9 Q: Once the built-up area was occupied, 10 after July of 1995, did you have occasion to attend 11 there? 12 A: On occasion, yes I was -- I did 13 attend. 14 Q: Did you ever stay over for any length 15 of time, or was it simply shorter periods for business? 16 A: There would have been shorter periods 17 of time, never stayed overnight. 18 Q: You've already told us that you were 19 taken by surprise once you learned that the Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park had been entered and there was an 21 occupation taking place of that? 22 A: The Provincial Park -- 23 Q: Yes -- 24 A: -- in August? 25 Q: Right?
1231 A: Yeah, I would -- 2 Q: In September of 1995? 3 A: Or, September, I'm sorry. No, I 4 wasn't -- I wasn't aware that that was going to happen 5 and it was a surprise to me. 6 Q: When was it that you became aware 7 that that activity had taken place, Mr. George? 8 A: I would have -- I would have thought 9 maybe the 3rd -- the 4th -- 4th or 5th of September. 10 Q: And having heard about that, did you 11 have occasion to go down to that area to go and see what 12 was going on, first hand? 13 A: No, no, I didn't. 14 Q: Okay. And we understand and we 15 anticipate that there will be officers from the OPP, 16 particularly Sergeant Lorne Smith, and Sergeant Brad 17 Seltzer; first of all, do you know those individuals? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: We anticipate that we will hear from 20 them and that they will testify that they had spoken to 21 you on the afternoon of the 6th of September of 1995; can 22 you recall speaking to those individuals? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: And can you recall the nature of the 25 discussions at all?
1241 A: Yeah. Not in specific detail, but I 2 know that -- and I'm not really sure how I got there, it 3 was at my dad's place on Indian Lane in Kettle Point. 4 I'm not sure whether they had called me and asked me to 5 go over, but I suspect, if my memory serves me correct, 6 that I had become a little inquisitive when I had seen 7 police cars over there. 8 So, I -- I think I may have went over just 9 to check what was going on and they were sitting at the 10 kitchen table and having a discussion because I knew both 11 Lorne Smith and Brad Seltzer fairly well. 12 We engaged in, you know, sort of casual 13 talk and then they -- it was clear that they were talking 14 about the -- this occupation on -- at the Park and it led 15 to them asking -- their big concern was -- was opening up 16 a -- a line of communication with whoever was involved 17 there at the -- at the Park. It seemed to be more of a 18 concern of Brad Seltzer than Lorne Smith. 19 Lorne would have had a better relationship 20 with my father because they had worked together on the 21 police committee that was somehow, sort of, associated to 22 the First Nations policing program on Kettle Point, but 23 Brad, I'm -- I wouldn't say that my dad actually knew 24 him, he may have, but I don't think so. Brad was from 25 the Chatham and Lorne was from Forest Detachment.
1251 But the concern seemed to be Brad's 2 concern to open up a line of communication with someone 3 at the Park and they specifically were looking for our 4 help to do that. 5 Q: Okay. Did they ask you to take on a 6 role in -- in that regard? 7 A: Well, yeah. They asked me if I could 8 -- if there was something I could do to facilitate this 9 and I felt that -- that Judas -- Roderick George -- might 10 have been the best person to talk to and I had no general 11 idea of what was -- what was at the heart of all of this, 12 but I just felt Judas was the one to talk to so I 13 recommended that they should try to open up that line. 14 Q: And do you know what steps, if any, 15 were taken to open up that line with Roderick George? 16 A: I don't know what anybody else would 17 have done, but I know I -- I personally went to the -- to 18 the Camp looking for Roderick; I never did find him. 19 But, I went to his house, one (1) of the buildings that 20 he was occupying and I spoke to one (1) of his daughters 21 and I -- I can't be certain who it was I spoke to, it 22 might have been Charmin (phonetic), I think her name is? 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: It might have been her. 25 Q: Did you go there directly from your
1261 father's house on Indian Lane in Kettle Point? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And on you way -- 4 A: While I -- I think I did. You've go 5 to appreciate I lived across the road, so you know, I may 6 have went to my house first and -- but at some time late 7 afternoon or early evening I did go to the -- to the 8 Camp. 9 Q: And would you have a normal route to 10 get from -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- either your residence or your 13 father's residence to the Camp? 14 A: Yes, I would have. I -- in fact, I 15 know that I -- I went up to -- off -- off the reserve to 16 Highway 21 and simply drove down to the -- to the -- to 17 the Camp and turned onto Army Camp Road. 18 Q: Okay. And on your way over did you 19 have any encounters that stand out in your mind? 20 A: Other than when I turned onto Army 21 Camp Road, there -- there was a surprisingly good number 22 of police officers on the road and I stopped because they 23 -- they stopped me and so I had -- I can't even remember 24 what the discussion, but I know I had a discussion with 25 them.
1271 Q: Okay. Is there anything else that 2 you can recall about them, for example, their dress? 3 A: Again, if my memory serves me right, 4 I think they -- might have been a mix of people with grey 5 uniforms on and blue, though I stand to be corrected on 6 that, but that's what I -- I recall seeing. And there 7 were maybe ten (10) or twelve (12) people there. 8 And they would have been -- and they would 9 have been positioned, I think, anywhere from the -- more 10 of the entrance from 21 Highway onto Army Camp Road right 11 up to the -- the entrance of the gate. Maybe not -- not 12 in the gate, I don't recall them there, but they were on 13 the roadway. 14 Q: And when you say they stopped you, 15 was there a physical barrier in place? 16 A: I don't recall that. I think they 17 would have just flagged me down. 18 Q: All right. And did you recognize any 19 of these officer? 20 A: I don't -- I don't remember whether 21 or not I knew anybody. 22 Q: Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but did 23 you indicate that you were -- that it was a surprising 24 number? 25 A: Yeah. Yeah.
1281 Q: And I take it from your response as 2 well, your earlier response that, you don't know what 3 conversation, if any, you had with them? 4 A: No, other than just I was going into 5 look for Judas. 6 Q: You've told us that you did go in, 7 you spoke to his daughter, at least? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Can you tell us what 10 happened after that? 11 A: I left. And I went to London. 12 Q: And in terms of your -- your trip to 13 London, can you tell us what time that might have been? 14 A: I think it was early in the evening, 15 because I know I had a bit of a job to do there for my 16 son and my sister who were living together in an 17 apartment. 18 So, I was just going to do a little bit of 19 work for them and I know that that work took, you know, 20 an hour, a couple of hours and -- and then I came back to 21 Kettle Point. But, it would have been early in the 22 evening, or -- or late afternoon. 23 Q: And coming back then, in -- in the 24 late afternoon or early evening, can you tell us what 25 happened, what you observed?
1291 A: Coming back from London, you mean? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: It would have been late, late 4 evening. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Would have been -- it would have 7 been, I'm thinking, 11:30, 12:00, 12:30 that I came back. 8 And I would have -- I was coming back on the -- down the 9 -- the Nairn (phonetic) Road, which is a route that we 10 would normally take to go to London, if at least going to 11 the -- more of the north end of the City, and I would 12 have come through Thedford. 13 And somewhere around Thedford there was -- 14 seemed to be a lot of police cars. I think it may have 15 been once I got through Thedford, a lot of police cars, 16 and I recall faintly seeing an ambulance. 17 And so that caused me to sort of put one 18 and one together, so I -- I decided to go down to the 19 Camp, to see -- suspecting that something happened, to 20 see what the heck was going on, and I couldn't get there. 21 There were -- there were roadblocks up. 22 And I think my first attempt was to go through, I think, 23 Northville, and then go south on 21 Highway and simply 24 take that route back to the Camp. 25 That was unsuccessful so I kind of back
1301 tracked and I can't remember where I went from there, but 2 I know I ended up again on -- on the -- on Ravenswood 3 Road, which would have been County Road 6, and again my 4 attempts to get down there were unsuccessful, so I went 5 back to Kettle Point. 6 And I'm a little bit unclear as to the 7 routes I was taking, I appreciate the fact that I'm -- 8 having lived there all my life and having operationally 9 policed there for a good number of years, I knew all the 10 back roads and stuff, so I'm -- I'm not sure what route I 11 was trying to, I probably would have tried several to get 12 there. 13 Q: Okay. But, in any event -- 14 A: But -- but you can exhaust that 15 fairly quickly because there's only a few entry points to 16 the Camp. 17 Q: Okay. And is it your recollection 18 that it was at those few entry points that you would have 19 encountered the police -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- blocking the -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- entry? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And arriving back at Kettle Point,
1311 what do you do? 2 A: I know I go to my dad's place 3 immediately, and to find out what's going on there. My 4 mom and dad would have spend more time around the house-- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- and I would of -- wandering around 7 so, when I got there it was fairly clear that something 8 had gone wrong down there and -- and what I had -- the 9 sort of suspicions of what went on down there, led me to 10 believe that somebody had been killed by the police. 11 And the names that were being bantered 12 about were Bernard George, Dudley, and then I -- I think 13 there might have been a third name that was being talked 14 about, but I can't really remember who that was, and I 15 don't want to, sort of, surmise, based on, you know, only 16 what I've known so far, but I think those were the two 17 names. 18 And it was -- we seem to be leaning more, 19 the discussion seemed to be leaning more to the idea that 20 Bernard had been killed. And so -- I know there were 21 some phone calls that were -- that were being made, you 22 know, people trying to get information and all of this 23 was occurring from my dad's place. 24 And ultimately, somehow or another I ended 25 up hooking up with Warren George Sr. And I don't know
1321 whether he came to my dad's place or I ended up going 2 over to his place. 3 But, we -- we ended up together in any 4 event and somehow again we ended up with Reg George Jr. 5 which would have been Dudley's oldest brother. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And then I don't really know where we 8 -- how we hooked up the three of us or, you know, what 9 was our starting point, but, we ultimately ended up going 10 to the Forest Detachment in Forest, of course. 11 And I recall that, again I was -- I was 12 surprised, you've got to appreciate that I didn't have a 13 really good view of what I would refer to as an 14 integrated response system. When you engage, you know, a 15 command post with incident commanders, I'd done local 16 operational policing. 17 So much of what I was seeing was a bit of 18 a surprise to me in terms of the number, ten (10) twelve 19 (12), that -- at the camp. And then when I pulled into 20 Forest, I think I was stopped at the -- at the corner of 21 the Arkona Road and 21 Highway, at the lights. 22 And again I'm not really sure on that. 23 But, at what corner, whether it was the corner of 24 Broadway Street and in the Arkona Road, but, I was 25 stopped initially by an OPP Officer and then I was
1331 allowed to proceed closer to the Detachment and I was a 2 little bit surprised by what I saw because there was very 3 clearly a command post established there and there seemed 4 to be a lot of security. 5 Q: All right. When you say, I was 6 stopped, I gather that you were in your vehicle then? 7 A: I was driving my truck. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But, I had Warren and Reg with me. 10 Q: We may hear some evidence that there 11 was a checkpoint at King Street and Townsend line, does 12 that help you at all? 13 A: Well, that would have been it. That 14 would have been 21 Highway and Arkona Road, that's what I 15 refer to them as. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: I think that's where I was stopped 18 first. 19 Q: And do you recall the officer that 20 might have been manning that, or officers that might have 21 been manning that particular checkpoint? 22 A: I don't recall, I could tell you 23 based on some of the information that the Commission has 24 given me, but, I don't -- my own memory doesn't tell me 25 who it was.
1341 Q: All right. After being stopped then 2 at this checkpoint what happens? 3 A: I was allowed to go, I believe, to 4 the -- to the actual Detachment and that's where I would 5 have made it to Broadway Street, which runs east/west. 6 And the T-corner at what you refer to as Townsend Line or 7 I'll call the Arkona Road, which is right at the entrance 8 at the Detachment and I was stopped there again. 9 And appreciate again, that at this point, 10 we're just trying to get information. We're at least, 11 I'm believing that Bernard George had been killed. And 12 so we are -- we get there and we pull up -- I think we 13 get as far as the, sort of, the -- where the -- it would 14 be the west parking lot of the Detachment meets with 15 Broadway Street. 16 And I can't remember who it is that I 17 spoke to, but, I believe that in the first instance, 18 there didn't appear to be a willingness to share any 19 information with us. And I pressed that a little bit, by 20 suggesting that, you know, you really need to talk to me 21 about this. And ultimately, they did talk to me. 22 Q: And when you say, they did talk to 23 you, who do you refer to, Mr. George? 24 A: At the time, I believe it was John 25 Carson. And I think, although this I got to be -- I'm
1351 not really clear on, but, I thought maybe I'd at some 2 point, spoken to Wade LaCroix, but, I'm not really clear 3 on that. 4 Q: And he was then a Sergeant? 5 A: I think he was a Staff Sergeant at 6 the time and John would have been, I think, an Inspector. 7 I could have that mixed up, but -- but I know I -- I 8 spoke to -- John was really the point of my discussion, I 9 believe. 10 Q: Okay. And again, where did this 11 discussion occur? 12 A: I didn't get out of my truck, they 13 came to me. That's -- like I said, there was a -- 14 typical type things that would come with the establishing 15 of a man -- a command post. I think there was a trailer 16 or a truck or something there and it was outside that, 17 closer to the road where the road intersects with the 18 parking lot and I think he came out to speak to me. 19 Q: All right. And in speaking to you, 20 what did you learn? 21 A: We learned that there was -- 22 confirmed that there was a confrontation at the 23 Provincial Park between the Occupiers and -- and the 24 police and that the police had shot and killed Dudley 25 George, which again, was a bit of a surprise to us for a
1361 couple of reasons. 2 Number 1 is that I was -- at least I was 3 operating under the assumption that it was Bernard George 4 that had been killed and it was, I think, even more 5 traumatic because Reg, his older brother, was in the car. 6 Q: And he was probably learning this for 7 the -- for the first time as you were. 8 A: I -- I think so. I was learning it 9 for the first time. 10 Q: Do you recall seeing your -- your 11 father there in and around this time, Mr. George? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. There is an Inquiry 14 Document, it's scribe notes that is at 300746 and at page 15 184 of that document, which is recorded at 01:16 hours. 16 There is a conversation, it would appear, between 17 yourself and Inspector Carson outside of the Detachment 18 and attributed to you is a comment that: 19 "Everyone is getting really upset there 20 that they're calling me." 21 That is, that people were calling you, and 22 a further comment attributed to you -- and I quote: 23 "Did you at least put a gun in his hand 24 to make it look good." 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1371 Q: Is that something, Mr. George -- 2 A: Do I have that document? 3 Q: We can -- 4 A: It's not part of what I have, is it, 5 or can I have a look at it? 6 Q: I don't know if we have that in the 7 package. I don't think it's in the -- it's in the 8 package of documents and we'll see if we can get this up 9 on screen. 10 A: I thought I recalled seeing that 11 somewhere. 12 Q: Let me just -- let me just take a 13 look. All right. Yeah, it is -- it is at Tab 3, Mr. 14 George. 15 A: Okay, yeah. Of this -- this booklet 16 that you gave me? 17 Q: Of the booklet in front of you and if 18 you would go, then, to page 84 at 01:16 hours there is 19 the notation by the scribe: 20 "John Carson to speak to Spike on 21 roadway with Mark Wright." 22 A: Now, see, that's who might have been 23 that I spoke, that was with John and not Wade Lacroix and 24 so it's what time? 25 Q: At 01:16 hours right in the middle of
1381 the page. 2 A: Yeah, yeah. Did you -- 3 Q: And it reads on: 4 "Dudley's oldest brother disclosed to 5 Spike, Harry Neil Watson George is 6 other injured. 7 Spike: Everyone is getting really 8 upset, they're calling me." 9 And then the next comment: 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: "Spike to speak with Reg. Did you at 12 least put a gun in his hand to make it 13 look good?" 14 A: Yeah, I said that. 15 Q: Can you tell us the context of -- of 16 that, what was meant by that? 17 A: Yeah, I was being -- I was angry and 18 I was being sarcastic. It became very escalated, the 19 anger, once Reg -- and once we were told that Dudley had 20 been killed. 21 Q: All right. Now, you talked to -- you 22 mentioned earlier that it seemed to you that they weren't 23 real anxious to share information with you. 24 Did you draw anything from that, Mr. 25 George?
1391 A: Well, I would have -- I would have 2 expected that that would be something that maybe police 3 would do initially is not share information until they 4 were better positioned, but I wouldn't have drawn 5 anything more from that, but I just decided that we would 6 press a little bit to see -- well, it was important to us 7 to find out who had -- who had died if, in fact, somebody 8 died and that was it. That's what we were looking for, 9 some confirmation. 10 Didn't really know where to go, didn't 11 know whether I should be going to Sarnia or Strathroy, 12 or... 13 Q: Ms. Vella has just pointed out, the 14 proper Inquiry Document is 3000746. 15 And aside, Mr. George, from Sergeants 16 Seltzer and Smith, were you contacted by anybody else 17 from the OPP? 18 A: No, I wasn't. 19 Q: Might it have been usual that they 20 would have contacted you? 21 A: I'm not going to say that it was. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I was in a completely different 24 professional environment at the time. 25 Q: All right.
1401 A: Not that I -- 2 Q: Certainly -- 3 A: Not that I had a diminished or 4 deteriorated relationship with some of the people that I 5 had worked for, for a long period of time, but we were 6 doing two (2) different things at the time. 7 Q: All right. And upon being given this 8 information as to who was shot and -- and so on, what did 9 you do? 10 A: Well I -- I can tell you, we were 11 really mad in the -- in the vehicle, and, you know, so 12 that, I recall, you know, a lot of hollering and stuff 13 happening at the time. 14 Now that I reflect on it, whoever that 15 other officer was, they didn't appear very sensitive to 16 what was really going on at the time but, I felt John 17 Carson was remorseful, because he -- he looked like that, 18 he was, you know, something kind of told me he was -- 19 that he felt bad about this. 20 So, we kind of really -- there was sort of 21 some hollering and shouting going on, and I know Reg was 22 really upset, and that stand to reason. But then as soon 23 as we got through there, and we weren't there very long, 24 we headed to Strathroy because we were able to establish 25 that he had been taken to Strathroy.
1411 Q: Okay. 2 A: We -- we made it there fairly 3 quickly, we were -- we were driving at -- I was driving 4 at a high rate of speed, so we were obviously trying to 5 get there as quickly as we could. 6 I know my sense was that maybe he wasn't 7 dead, I mean, you just kind of function that way, right. 8 So I needed to get Reg over there. You kind of hope that 9 maybe they're not accurate in what they were saying or 10 they missed something. So I know we were racing to -- to 11 get there to -- to see what was really going on. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And I think from a, I don't know if 14 other people feel the same way, but from an Aboriginal 15 person's perspective, until you can see the body and 16 touch the body or whatever, at least in my teachings, in 17 my practise, you still kind of don't believe that it's 18 true. So I think that's what was happening. 19 Q: And as you're racing to Strathroy, 20 did you make any observations? You had told us earlier 21 about the police that were around. 22 Did you see anything of that nature? 23 A: I can't -- I can't say that I did, on 24 the trip to Strathroy. 25 Q: Okay.
1421 A: I would suspect that -- I was driving 2 as fast as my vehicle could go, it was a big V8 pick-up 3 truck and it was governing out on me, which means I had 4 it at top speed, and I would suspect that if the police 5 saw me driving they would pull me over. 6 But I didn't encounter anything like that, 7 I don't think. 8 Q: And so the three (3) of you -- 9 A: It's a -- it's a little bit sketchy, 10 that, for me, you know, 'cause I'm sure we -- we were 11 pretty emotionally charged at the time. 12 Q: The three (3) of you did arrive at 13 the Strathroy Hospital? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what happens when you're there? 16 A: Well, I was familiar where the 17 hospital was, so I got there, and again there -- there 18 appeared to be a pretty heavy build-up of -- of police 19 around the hospital, the entrance ways. 20 And, again I -- I think we -- we pulled up 21 and may have stopped at the front door, and may have had 22 some discussion with the police then, but I know we 23 pulled into the parking lot and then exited the vehicle 24 and made our way to that -- it was Emergency door at the 25 time, which would have been, I think, on the north side
1431 of the building. 2 And I can't really remember with clarity 3 what was going on after that, you know, and I remember 4 specific things, about what we did, were there. 5 I know there were other people there, but, 6 I'm not sure what family member or when they showed up. 7 I believe Sam might have been there, at some point, his 8 brother. I know my dad showed up at one point. And -- 9 so -- and I can't remember who else was there. 10 Q: All right. Do you recall seeing a 11 Dr. Perkin there? 12 A: I remember speaking to a Doctor, but, 13 I don't know his name. 14 Q: Right. That he would have provided 15 you some information or advice that there would be an 16 autopsy at some point? 17 A: You know something, I can't remember 18 whether -- I know somebody has talked to me about that, 19 but, I can't remember whether the doctor himself actually 20 -- I know we went and viewed Dudley's body and it was 21 there that we were convinced -- and I can't remember 22 whether the doctor spoke to me about it, prior to me 23 viewing Dudley's body or after. 24 But, even if the doctor had told me that, 25 I wouldn't have been convinced. That's now how I'd do
1441 things. I have to see the body. And -- but, I know 2 someone went with us to see the body and I can't remember 3 if it was a doctor, or not. Some doctor did talk to us. 4 Q: You mentioned earlier that it was 5 your initial thoughts that it was, in fact, Bernard 6 George, Cecil Bernard George that was -- 7 A: That was killed -- 8 Q: -- the one that was shot and killed? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you see him at the hospital, at 11 all? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And do your recall the observations 14 of him, when you did see him? 15 A: Well, when I did see him, he was on a 16 -- he was on a bed and I can't remember what room it was 17 in, but, he looked like he was severely beaten. 18 Q: Did you have a chance to speak to 19 him, at all or... 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: After you then viewed Mr. Dudley 22 George's body, what happened after that, Mr. George? 23 A: I think at some point, I saw Nicholas 24 Cotrelle or I called him Ugga -- I think I saw him in the 25 room too and may have spoke to him. This is where it
1451 gets a little bit difficult because at the time, I was 2 just simply heading over there because it was three (3) 3 cousins heading out to see what had happened to their 4 brother and their cousin. 5 But, somewhere along the line, people 6 start contacting me as a lawyer. And I'm -- I'm thinking 7 that maybe Nick -- I would have spoken to Nick in that 8 capacity. 9 Q: All right. Well, I don't want to get 10 into that. 11 A: Yeah. I don't either. 12 Q: Did you learn anything about the 13 people that would have transported Mr. Dudley George to 14 the hospital? 15 A: At some point along the way, I had 16 been somehow advised to go see his brother Pierre and 17 sister Collie (phonetic), Caroline and that they were in 18 the cells at the Strathroy OPP Detachment. 19 Q: And just so that I understand, I take 20 it that was again in the capacity as legal counsel that 21 you were contacted and went to see them? 22 A: I was very clear on that, once that 23 happened, yes. 24 Q: And I don't want to have you tell us 25 about what it is that you said or did with them, but can
1461 you tell us in any sort of general sense what happened, 2 insofar as dealing with those individuals? 3 A: Well, I went there, I know that and 4 of course, the access to the -- to the Detachment was 5 much like the other places that I had gone to and there 6 were lots of police around, seemed to be a high level of 7 security in entering the parking lot to the Detachment. 8 And then when I got there, of course, in 9 typical fashion and I'm familiar with detachment 10 exteriors and entry points, I would have had to have very 11 clearly state why I was there. 12 And I don't know whether I called over 13 there to pre-arrange this, or not. But, ultimately when 14 I got there I was allowed to go in. 15 Q: Did you learn, for example, if Mr. 16 George -- 17 A: I can't remember what happened -- 18 Q: I'm sorry? 19 A: I'm sorry -- I can't remember what 20 happened to Reg and Warren, at the time, that's Warren 21 George Sr. 22 Q: So, it's your recollection they were 23 no longer with you at that -- that stage? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Or you can't -- you can't say?
1471 A: I can't recall. I -- I assume they 2 were, but I don't really know that for sure. 3 Q: Did you learn, Mr. George, whether 4 your clients were charged with anything? And -- and 5 specifically I'm talking about Pierre and -- and Carolyn? 6 A: My understanding was that they 7 weren't charged at that point, that they'd been arrested. 8 Q: And I take it at some point you would 9 have left the Strathroy OPP detachment. 10 What did you do at -- at that stage? 11 A: When I left? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I'm not really sure. I can't say. I 14 know I went back to Kettle Point at some point. I made 15 my way back there. I don't know whether I took Reg to 16 Forest and dropped him off, but I did get back to Kettle 17 Point. 18 Q: Okay, so Reg George would have been 19 living in Forest? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And once you got back to 22 Kettle Point, can you -- can you tell us what you next 23 recall? 24 A: Well, when I got back to Kettle Point 25 there was a lot of people beginning to gather at the
1481 Plaza, which is at the north -- or the southeast boundary 2 of the community and at some point in time, I -- I 3 actually made my way there. 4 I don't know whether I went over to my 5 dad's place, which is just down the road from it, but I 6 definitely made my way there and there was a -- everybody 7 seemed very angry over this, but there was still a lot of 8 questions that were floating around. 9 People still didn't know who actually had 10 been killed. The information was spreading around fairly 11 quickly and -- but there was very clearly a general sense 12 that people wanted to get down to the Army Base and give 13 some support. 14 And so it seemed like people were -- it 15 seemed a little loose to me, like there wasn't really any 16 leadership in that regard and there was a woman there, I 17 think she was the assistant to the Band Administrator, 18 Brenda Given, who was trying desperately to kind of 19 control people, but that was -- she had absolutely no 20 success in that. 21 People were going to get down there and 22 they were going to get down there quickly so she was 23 trying to convince them that they should wait for the 24 Chief and the Chief could organize it, but the people 25 weren't -- weren't satisfied with that.
1491 Q: And the -- the march toward the Army 2 Camp commenced I take it? 3 A: Yes, it did. 4 Q: Do you have any idea about what hour 5 this might have been now? 6 A: Oh, geez. I don't know, you know, I 7 -- I suspect it would have been somewhere after four 8 o'clock, you know -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- when I -- when I think about it. 11 Q: And what leads you to that... 12 A: Well, because I was in Strathroy, you 13 know, I don't know what time I got there, maybe two 14 o'clock or 1:45 or something. I -- I was there for a 15 while, I was over to the -- to the -- to the holding 16 cells for a while, so I -- I couldn't see myself getting 17 back to Kettle Point until after four o'clock. 18 It's -- in fact something tells me it 19 might have been daylight -- beginning to get daylight. 20 Q: And did you participate in this 21 march to the Army Camp from the Plaza at Kettle Point? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: Can you tell us what you -- what you 24 did do or what you were involved in? 25 A: I can't remember in specific detail.
1501 There are some things that happened subsequent to that 2 night around this whole incident and I can't remember 3 clearly what times those happened either, but I know we 4 were -- we were concerned. 5 Reg George's family really kind of had 6 very interesting -- we had an interesting relationship 7 with them. In many ways we seemed very close, those 8 brothers and sisters and my brothers and sisters and 9 whenever we would experience any kind of difficulty in 10 the larger family with death, it all seemed to me that 11 his daughters were always very close -- always available 12 to help in times like that. 13 And, you know, because this was one (1) of 14 Reg's kids and I mean Reg George, Sr. who we called Nug, 15 we seemed to be preoccupied with just attending to that 16 as opposed to some of the others because, I mean, we mean 17 had a dead relative and -- and that needed to be 18 addressed. 19 Q: Okay. You had mentioned Nicholus 20 Cotrelle earlier? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that you may have seen him 23 earlier. Did you see him at all later after this point? 24 A: Yes, I did. I think it was later 25 that night, and I guess we're into the 7th of September
1511 by this time. I think I saw him -- of course people 2 would have been, and I recall myself moving from -- from 3 Kettle Point to Stony Point at some point during the day, 4 but I remember going with Nick's mother, Gina, to 5 Strathroy to pick him up. 6 And I -- I thought we had picked him up at 7 the hospital but, no, I -- I can't remember whether it 8 was the hospital or -- or the holding cell at the 9 Detachment. 10 Q: But in any event, you were -- you 11 brought him home? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: Or you brought him back to the 14 community? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And en route back to the community, 17 were there any other encounters that stand out in your 18 mind? 19 A: Well, again, I would have taken the 20 route down the Ravenswood Road, County Road 6, and I had 21 come off whatever road they call that, I -- I can't 22 remember, it's the Conklin Road, I call it, and I had 23 come off there, and -- and I turned left on the -- the 24 Ravenswood Road and -- and headed in kind of a west 25 direction.
1521 And we were stopped, and I -- I think we 2 may have been going to Kettle Point, I can't be sure, but 3 I think we were going to Kettle Point because they had a 4 home on Kettle Point, and we were stopped by the police 5 on -- this was -- this was dark, this was at night, in 6 fact, I think it might have been closer to midnight. 7 We got stopped by police officers, I think 8 there might have been two (2), maybe three (3), and they 9 very clearly were exhibiting their firearms, which I 10 thought was unusual, and they were just checking to see 11 who it was, but -- and once we identified ourselves, we 12 were -- were able to -- to go on. 13 Q: And the police with firearms, where - 14 - where were they? Were they... 15 A: Well there were -- there were two (2) 16 or three (3) on the road and there was a, what I would 17 call a -- thought was a sniper, in the ditch. And that 18 was my biggest concern at the point, at that point in 19 time. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Was laying in the ditch and whatever 22 long gun that he had in his hand was directed toward my 23 vehicle. I had a big concern for a lot of reasons, but I 24 had my son in the car. 25 Q: All right.
1531 A: So that was problematic for me. I -- 2 I just wanted to get out of there. 3 Q: And so you -- you made it back to the 4 -- to Kettle Point? 5 A: Can't say whether I went to Kettle 6 Point or Stony Point. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: But I was just trying to get -- I 9 mean it was a very casual ride, it seemed like it to me, 10 you know, just taking Gina to go pick her son up. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: There were a number of -- of meetings 14 that we anticipate hearing about, that followed in that. 15 Do you recall whether you might have been in attendance 16 at any meetings or gatherings? 17 A: I can't say with a -- a lot of 18 precision, but I know that I had met at the Kettle Point 19 School, it was a newly opened school. I think it was 20 just that year that it was opened, and I recall going to 21 a meeting there. 22 I -- I know I met with Sam and some of the 23 family members on occasion, and -- 24 Q: When you say Sam, that's -- 25 A: Sam George.
1541 Q: -- Sam George? 2 A: Yeah. On occasion, and this is all 3 happening very quickly, so I'm -- I'm mixed up on -- on 4 days. But I know we ended up over at the Band Office on 5 Kettle Point, or actually in the school, at one point. 6 I know I went back to Stoney Point at some 7 point in time, and there were a flurry of people, and 8 Leaders where showing up, like Ovide Mercredi, Gord 9 Peters, more extended members of the George family, or 10 members of the extended George family, that is the Robert 11 George and Laura George family were showing up. 12 In the -- I know there was -- I -- I can 13 recall one OPP Officer who was there, some of the 14 politicians, so I remember that kind of stuff. 15 Q: Okay. Just in -- in connection with 16 the -- your testimony earlier, in terms of your dealings 17 -- you had dealings, I take it, when you were at the 18 police station, to see Nicholus Cotrelle. 19 Can you speak about what dealings you 20 might have had with the police when you attended to see 21 Nicholus Cotrelle? 22 A: Nick Cotrelle. See, that's where I'm 23 not sure I saw at the police station. I know that we -- 24 I saw him -- I think it was at the hospital and there was 25 a -- the police were really -- were sort of maintaining
1551 an investigation with respect to his part in whatever had 2 gone on and I didn't know what was gone on, but I know I 3 spoke to him in my capacity as a lawyer, at some point in 4 time. 5 Q: All right -- 6 A: And I spoke to -- I spoke to a police 7 officer who was part of the investigative team, I think, 8 and they had asked me -- or they were attempting to do 9 something with Nick and I'm not really clear whether it's 10 something I can get into or not because it was -- 11 Q: Just in terms of your dealings with 12 the police, I certainly wouldn't want you to go into any 13 discussions you may have had with your client -- 14 A: Okay. Yeah, I think they were trying 15 to get -- I'm not sure whether they were trying to get 16 access to his clothes or take some photographs of them or 17 something like that. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And they were trying to execute a 20 warrant that would give them authority to do that. I 21 think that's what was going on. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: And I remember speaking to Nick about 24 it. 25 Q: Okay. Without getting into that, did
1561 you have any perceptions as to the police and their 2 dealings with respect to their client as to, well, for 3 example the propriety of what they were doing? 4 And I take it they informed you that they 5 were conducting an investigation? 6 A: Throughout in relation to that and in 7 relation to, I think, the more salient interaction I had 8 with the police after the Forest contact with John 9 Carson, I felt that the police were trying to be very 10 cooperative with me. 11 I didn't get any resistance that obviously 12 led to me not getting access. And I don't think that I 13 recall anyone being very -- like obnoxious or negative. 14 With the exception that I -- whoever that officer was 15 with, with John Carson, seemed very insensitive to me and 16 resistant to anything we wanted. 17 Q: Did you have, as well, did you -- did 18 you have any dealings with J.T. Cousins or may have been 19 identified then as J.T. George? 20 A: Yeah, something in my mind tells me 21 that I had some kind of contact with him, but, I believe 22 it was a telephone contact that was very brief. 23 Q: And that would be in your capacity as 24 a lawyer? 25 A: No question about that, yeah.
1571 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Mr. George, I don't have any further 6 questions in respect to the factual stuff that you can 7 speak about. 8 One (1) of the things that we have asked 9 most of the witnesses and afforded them the opportunity, 10 if they had anything to say, as to how this might be 11 avoided in the future which, of course, is part of this 12 Commission of Inquiry's mandate. 13 And do you have any such observations or 14 remarks? 15 A: Well, I guess my response to that 16 would be is that I think I have some pretty extensive 17 knowledge and experience with respect to these kinds of 18 matters. I've spent a lot of time focussing my attention 19 on these kinds of things and working practically to 20 achieve ideas. 21 I would say, at this point in time, that 22 I'd be happy to talk about this, but, I think it would be 23 more appropriate to do that and I hope that I get an 24 opportunity in the Part 2 part of the Inquiry. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I think that we can
1581 assure that that -- that that will certainly actively be 2 sought. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 4 Henderson? 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm happy to hear 6 that, Commissioner, I simply wanted to seek your guidance 7 and confirmation that, in fact, Mr. George can bring his 8 training and his experience both before and after the 9 incident to bear in some way. 10 He's offered, I believe, to contribute to 11 some document, to Part 2 of the Inquiry and I think he 12 would also appreciate some sort of evidentiary 13 opportunity so that he could -- could give you the 14 benefit of his oral testimony in due course and share it 15 with the Commission. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 17 not sure where that is in Part 2 at the moment. I know 18 that there are a number of papers that are being 19 prepared. 20 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, I'm not 22 sure exactly where that is, but there will be an 23 opportunity, obviously. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes. Thank you, 25 Commissioner. And I'm not sure where we are in the
1591 evidentiary part either, but I thought this might be one 2 (1) way of asking. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, no I'm 4 not sure where the Part 2 part is at the moment, but I 5 know there will be an opportunity for him to offer his 6 suggestions, certainly. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Those are the 8 questions in-chief then, Your Honour. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 Does anyone wish to cross-examine this 11 Witness? 12 How long do you think you might be, sir? 13 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Five (5) to ten 14 (10) minutes. 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Perhaps twenty (20) 16 minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 18 Ross...? 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps forty (40) 20 minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps forty (40) 23 minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Forty (40) 25 minutes?
1601 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Possibly five 3 (5) minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Karen 5 Jones...? 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Thirty (30) to forty 7 (40) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 9 have difficulty hearing. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry. Thirty (30) 11 to forty (40) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 Thirty (30) to forty (40) minutes. 14 And Mr. Downard...? 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Fifteen (15) minutes, 16 sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen 18 (15)? 19 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 21 to adjourn at four o'clock, so I think we should just 22 continue right through until four o'clock? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless 25 someone desperately needs a break, which sometimes some
1611 of us do. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you for looking 3 at me, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can do 5 that, I can't. I think we'll just carry on. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps five (5) or 7 ten (10) minutes, Mr. Commissioner, might well be in 8 order. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 10 five (5) or ten (10) minute break and come right back. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for ten (10) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 3:23 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:34 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just carry 20 on. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 24 A: Afternoon. 25 Q: For the record, my name is Basil
1621 Alexander and I represent the Estate of Dudley George and 2 several members of the George family, including Sam 3 George who's sitting here beside me. 4 I just -- I just have a few questions to 5 ask you and I shouldn't take up too much of your time. 6 To start with, we've heard evidence that 7 in 1827 the Crown entered into a Treaty with your people 8 and in that treaty the Crown committed and guaranteed 9 that the original Stoney Point Reserve, which included 10 the lands that later became the Park and the Army Base 11 would be native lands in perpetuity. 12 Do you accept or agree with that evidence? 13 A: Maybe you can run that by me again. 14 Q: Not a problem. We've heard evidence 15 that in 1827 -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- the Crown entered into a Treaty 18 with your people and in that Treaty the Crown committed 19 and guaranteed that the original Stoney Point Reserve, 20 which included the lands that later became the Park and 21 the Army Base would be native lands in perpetuity. 22 Do you accept or agree with that evidence? 23 A: Well, first of all, my understanding 24 of the evolution of my particular family was that -- and 25 again I stand to be corrected on this, but this what I
1631 get from the historical record -- was that in 1827, the 2 forefathers of the George family didn't engage in that 3 particular process, that our forefathers ended up here as 4 a result of a migration north into Canada in 1834, I 5 think it was. 6 And then somehow, over the course of time, 7 through the -- this is my view of my own culture -- is 8 that over the course of time, my forefathers who were 9 Potawatomi people from Wisconsin would have ultimately 10 assumed the ways of the Ojibway and the Anishnaabeg 11 Nation at Stoney Point, and would have at some point, and 12 I believe that to be 1873, would have been accepted fully 13 and recognized as such, as members of the Ojibway 14 Community. 15 So I refer to myself as a Ojibway Member 16 of the Anishnaabeg Nation from Potawatomi descent. So I 17 wouldn't agree that we were necessarily involved in that 18 1827 process. 19 Q: But there were people who you do know 20 of who were involved? 21 A: So we had ultimately become part of 22 that group that had interest and once accepted by the 23 Ojibway, we would have had full rights and access to the 24 lands where those Ojibway were living. 25 Q: Including the -- the ones guaranteed
1641 in the Treaty? 2 A: I have little bit difficulty with the 3 idea that I'm going to say that because some non- 4 Aboriginal entity entered into agreement with us, that we 5 somehow got some right from that. The right existed 6 prior to 1827, in my humble opinion. 7 Q: No, that's fair enough. 8 A: Yeah. And our responsibility would 9 exist forever. 10 Q: Fair enough. You've testified that 11 your great grandfather was Komani or Albert George; 12 correct? 13 A: Pakmawnakwaad, yeah. 14 Q: We've heard evidence that Komani and 15 his wife lived in a house on lands that later became the 16 Park. 17 Do you have any reason to disagree with 18 this evidence? 19 A: That's an interesting question. No, 20 not really, 'cause I don't know where they lived one way 21 or the other, to be honest with you. 22 Q: So you have no reason to disagree 23 then? 24 A: No. 25 Q: So it would appear that your great
1651 grandfather lived on Treaty lands that became the Park; 2 correct? 3 A: I'm sorry? 4 Q: So it appears that your great 5 grandfather lived on Treaty lands that became the Park? 6 A: I don't -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 8 where that question's going. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I beg to qualify. 10 Certainly My Friend can ask the question, but Mr. George 11 has testified he doesn't -- he doesn't know that for 12 sure, he has no reason to disagree with it, but that 13 doesn't make it anything apparent, other than that he 14 doesn't know and has no reason to disagree. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any other 16 questions. 17 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'll move on. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 21 Q: We've heard evidence that in the 22 decades previous to the summer of 1928, senior levels of 23 Government were very vocal and unapologetic that the 24 assimilation and disappearance of Indians, as a 25 particular legal status, was desirable and something to
1661 be facilitated. 2 Do you accept or agree with that evidence? 3 A: I'm going to get you to -- I have 4 views on that, but I'm going to get you to read that one 5 more time to me. 6 Q: We've heard evidence that in the 7 decades previous to the summer of 1928, the senior levels 8 of Government were very vocal and unapologetic that the 9 assimilation and disappearance of Indians, as a 10 particular legal status, was desirable and something to 11 be facilitated. 12 Do you accept or agree with that evidence? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 14 you answer that, is the question quoting from the 15 evidence? 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 THE WITNESS: It's quoting from here? 19 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: It's quoting from 20 evidence we've heard in the Inquiry. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought -- 22 THE WITNESS: So let me kind of put that 23 back in my -- in my own perspective, so you're... 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Sorry, 25 Commissioner. The -- the statement My Friend just read,
1671 I think, is a summary of a quotation that comes from 2 former Deputy Superintendent General Duncan Campbell 3 Scott, which is an expressed statement about -- about the 4 Indian people being more or less persuaded or compelled 5 into the general population. 6 There is an actual quote and that is, I 7 believe, in the evidence as it was given, if memory 8 serves, when Dr. Joan Holmes was testifying, that they -- 9 what -- what My Friend read as, what is in the evidence 10 is in fact a precis or a summary of a direct quote 11 dating, I believe, to 1924. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. And 13 you want this witness to comment on that? 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I asked if he 15 accepted or agreed with the evidence, and I -- I can 16 state in the transcript where it came, if that would be 17 of assistance. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you 19 want to hear it directly from the ...? 20 THE WITNESS: If he's asking me about 21 assimilation in the policy of Government prior to 1928? 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes, that's what 23 I'm -- 24 THE WITNESS: I have some views on that 25 and I can tell you that in 1880 Sir John A. MacDonald, on
1681 behalf of the Federal Government, indicated that the new 2 policy with respect to Indians in Canada was to wean them 3 from their Nomadic ways, which had become almost 4 habitual, and bring them into the mainstream, and that in 5 doing that, they had to be fair with them, and so that 6 spoke of assimilation. 7 It would be my view, that at least since 8 1876 the introduction of the first comprehensive Indian 9 Act, that the policy of Government toward Indian people 10 had been assimilation. 11 And that would have included, up until 12 1928. And I think that it continued subsequent to that. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 15 Q: We've also heard evidence that in the 16 case of Indian surrenders in this period of time, people 17 were under extreme pressure and influence from Indian 18 agents and it was very, very difficult for any First 19 Nation to successfully resist pressure to surrender their 20 lands. 21 Do you accept or agree with that evidence? 22 A: I'm going to ask you to read that to 23 me again. 24 Q: We've also heard evidence that in the 25 case of Indian surrenders in this period of time, people
1691 were under extreme pressure and influence from Indian 2 agents and it was very, very difficult for any First 3 Nation to successfully resist pressure to surrender their 4 lands. 5 Do you accept or agree with this evidence? 6 A: Up until a period of 1928 -- is that 7 the point of reference -- 8 Q: That's the period I am referring to? 9 A: Yeah. Well, I would agree with at 10 least that my belief is that the Federal government 11 policy of assimilation necessarily included the act of 12 acquiring Indian lands. 13 And that based on some of what I know and 14 some of the cases that have come forward that the 15 government in many ways didn't act in ways that I think 16 they could have with respect to Indian lands, could have 17 been more respectful. 18 I think at the end of the day that that's 19 clear to me. So, yeah, I think Indians were under a lot 20 of pressure and somehow in some cases, would not have 21 been able to successfully fight off the efforts of the 22 Indian agent to acquire the land. 23 Q: I think you've -- that's a very good 24 lead into my next question. In this context, do you have 25 any confidence that the 1928 surrender vote regarding the
1701 treaty lands that became the Park and would have -- sorry 2 -- let me re-state the question again. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: In this context, do you have any 5 confidence that the 1928 surrender vote regarding the 6 treaty lands that became the Park, would have been a well 7 informed and freely given expression of the community's 8 wishes? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner, I'm 13 sorry, but, we have sort of the sweeping generality 14 moving into the specific. The specific is not of 15 interest to the Commission. 16 There's no evidentiary basis that's been 17 laid before this Witness to give an opinion on that 18 particular question. And the actual evidence that we 19 have, again historically here, is you know, whatever 20 happened or didn't happen in 1928 when there was extreme 21 pressure in 1942 to get a surrender of Stoney Point 22 Reserve, they didn't get it. 23 And these were the same people. They 24 didn't change generations or move you know, different 25 people in or out. It's -- it's -- you know these kinds
1711 of questions are not taking us anywhere. They're 2 inconsistent with the actual history. 3 And in the absence of an evidentiary basis 4 put to this Witness or any other, however knowledgeable 5 about the history, it amounts to nothing more than a 6 poll. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 8 Esmonde...? 9 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes, I did just want 10 to comment. I'm not sure that the evidence was quite 11 fairly summarized there. 12 There certainly is evidence before this 13 Inquiry that there were some very troubling aspects to 14 the 1928 surrender and reasons to question it's validity. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 16 to try to ask the question again and see if he can 17 understand it. And if he feels he can answer it, if he 18 can he will, if he can't he won't. 19 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: For the 20 Commission's reference, with respect to the evidence I'm 21 referring to, it is the evidence of Joan Holmes. 22 And it's from her testimony on August the 23 19th, 2004 pages -- page 82 lines 22 to page 83 line 17. 24 And the other one is on September 8th, again the 25 continuation of the testimony of Joan Holmes, on page
1721 139, from line 13 to line 17. 2 So, that's where the language of the 3 question is -- the basis of the language of the questions 4 is coming from. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 6 understand. Yes, Mr. Ross...? 7 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: With respect, Mr. 8 Commissioner, we have the evidence of the expert that is 9 already in. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm mm -- 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Now, this Witness has 12 not been qualified -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not an 14 expert. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- to give any expert 16 opinion. However, if My Learned Friend, wants to 17 challenge the underpinning of the expert evidence through 18 him, she can attack it just on the facts, but not drawing 19 him into giving opinions. 20 For instance, if she had a date which was 21 patently wrong, it can be corrected through this Witness, 22 but unless she's going to qualify him as an expert, I 23 don't think it's appropriate. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 25 think he's trying to attack him or qualify him.
1731 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: But, the bottom line 2 is that he's not qualified as an expert and she should 3 not be drawing those opinions out of him. He should not. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I certainly have 6 no reason to disagree with what either of my Friends had 7 said, Commissioner. I think the important point is that 8 regardless of whether or not this Commission has heard 9 this testimony, nobody's brought home the fact that this 10 Witness might have heard that testimony or had occasion 11 to study it or review it or consider any opinion that -- 12 or inference that might be drawn from it and these 13 questions are just taking us nowhere, in my respectful 14 submission. 15 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 16 this Witness has said that he's got a Bachelors of Law as 17 he's done degrees in sociology, he's also done a masters 18 in law focussing a lot in Aboriginal issues and 19 Aboriginal justice issues. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But not on 21 the history of the land. We already have an expert who's 22 given us evidence on that. 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: It's in this 24 context, however, that I'm asking whether or not he has 25 an opinion based on the information that he has heard and
1741 dealt with on that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. If he 3 has one, I suppose he could give it to us, it isn't an 4 expert opinion. 5 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: It's not an expert 6 opinion I'm asking. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 8 fine. Okay. That's why I suggested ask the question 9 again, if he can answer it in his opinion, which is not 10 an expert opinion -- we've asked other witnesses this 11 question and they've answered and if he can, he will, and 12 if he can't, he won't. 13 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Thank you, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 17 Q: Would you like me to state the 18 question again? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: In this context, do you have any 21 confidence that the 1928 surrender vote regarding the 22 treaty lands that became the Park and would have -- would 23 have been a well-informed and freely given expression of 24 the community's wishes? 25 A: Well, I think that's -- for me it's a
1751 fairly easy question to answer. 2 I spent considerable time on understanding 3 the parameters of the 1942 expropriation of the land. I 4 spent little to no time on the 1928 surrender, so I don't 5 really know what that's about. I know generally speaking 6 what it's about, but I don't know any of the details or 7 particularly as it relates to the process, so I don't 8 really have an opinion on that. 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fair enough. Thank 10 you, Mr. George, I have no further questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. 13 Ms. Esmonde, do you want to -- you 14 indicated you might have twenty (20) minutes. It's ten 15 (10) to -- 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes, I certainly 17 wouldn't finish today. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You won't? 19 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: No. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then 21 why don't we adjourn now to give Mr. Henderson a chance 22 to go to his meeting. 23 MS. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I appreciate 24 that, Commissioner. I believe Mr. Millar has a head 25 start on me, so I'd be happy to catch up as soon as I
1761 can. 2 And -- and just for the record, to -- to 3 conclude that aspect of -- of Mr. George's evidence, you 4 are aware, Commissioner, there is a claim in with respect 5 to the 1928 surrender, so, it -- it's not as though -- 6 it's generally accepted that it was -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 8 that. 9 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, I 11 think we will adjourn at this point, it's ten (10) to 12 4:00 until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and start 13 with you, Jackie Esmonde. Is that okay? 14 15 (WITNESS RETIRES) 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, March the 1st at 9:00 19 a.m. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 3:50 p.m. 22 23 24 25
1771 2 3 Certified Correct 4 5 6 ________________________ 7 Carol Geehan 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25