11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 24th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) (Student-at-law) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 Peter West ) (np) 22 Nagai On Young ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 8 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 9 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 10 Julian Roy ) (np) 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 15 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 16 Matthew Horner ) 17 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 18 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Erin Tully ) 20 Craig Mills ) (np) 21 Megan Mackey ) (np) 22 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 23 Anna Perschy ) (np) 24 Melissa Panjer ) 25 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 Discussion 7 7 8 MILES CHARLES BRESSETTE, Resumed 9 10 Continued Examination-In-Chief 11 by Ms. Katherine Hensel 7 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 46 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 49 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brian Eyolfson 90 15 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 94 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 121 17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 155 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 160 19 20 21 22 23 Certificate of Transcript 173 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-217 Document No. 2002380 Sept 09/95. 4 Results of meeting between Bruce 5 Elijah, Marvin Connors, Miles 6 Bressette, Jim Potts and Paul 7 Trivett. 26 8 P-218 Document No. 6000335 Sept 17/95. 9 Three (3) day joint investigation 10 relation to the death of Anthony 11 Dudley George and related incidents. 41 12 P-219 Kettle and Stony Point Council 13 Meeting Minutes. Jan 05/93 to 14 Nov 27/95. 130 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon convening at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. Just before we start, I said yesterday that I 8 would try to deliver my decision on the request for 9 change of location for Mr. George's testimony by the end 10 of today, if possible. 11 I need a little more time so I'm going to 12 take the weekend and give my decision next week sometime 13 if that's okay. Thank you. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. Good morning. 16 17 MILES CHARLES BRESSETTE, Resumed 18 19 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 20 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: If I might remind you that you are 23 still under oath. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You will recall, Mr. Bressette, that
81 we were discussing the events of late August and early 2 September, 1995 yesterday afternoon. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I just have one (1) or two (2) more 5 questions about that time period. In mid to late August 6 of 1995, do you have any recollection of discussions at 7 Kettle and Stony Point about members at Kettle Point 8 blocking Highway 21 in the direction of Stony Point? 9 A: Discussion on -- on it? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I don't believe there was any 12 discussion, I observed them. 13 Q: Yeah. This was prior to the -- just 14 to remind you, it was prior to the -- to the occupation 15 of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 16 A: I believe there was some discussion 17 on that and there was leaflets handed out by members of 18 the community to people travelling on Highway 21 and 19 County Road 7. 20 Q: Okay. What did those leaflets 21 describe or say? 22 A: I'm not really sure what -- what the 23 protest was all about at that time. I can't remember -- 24 I probably knew what it was but I can't recall. 25 Q: You can't recall now?
91 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you didn't discuss with 3 anyone the prospect of Highway 21 being blocked? 4 A: We probably did. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. But you -- can you recall 6 those conversations now? 7 A: No, I can't. 8 Q: Okay. Turning now to September 6th, 9 1995, which was the third day of the occupation of 10 Ipperwash Provincial Park and were you on duty that day? 11 A: I believe so. 12 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether you 13 were on duty on the evening of September 6th? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Just to assist you, Mr. Bressette, 18 September 6th was the day that -- that Dudley George was 19 shot and killed. 20 A: I wasn't on duty, I was paged by 21 Wallace Kaczanowski; I was in the Sarnia area at that 22 time. 23 Q: Okay. And what were you doing in 24 Sarnia? 25 A: I was with my family on an outing.
101 Q: Around what time of day were you 2 paged? 3 A: It must have been around 10:30 -- 4 eleven o'clock. 5 Q: And what did you do when you received 6 the page? 7 A: I immediately returned the telephone 8 call to where the page was coming from. 9 Q: Okay. And -- 10 A: I spoke to Constable Kaczanowski. 11 Q: What did he tell you? 12 A: He told me there was two (2) or three 13 (3) people that were shot -- shot and killed at -- 14 Q: Did he -- 15 A: -- the Provincial Park. He was 16 really sketchy on what really occurred and I believe one 17 (1) of the names that he mentioned at the time was 18 Bernard George had been killed and I can't remember the 19 other people that he -- he mentioned at that time. 20 Q: Okay. And did he tell you anything 21 else about the circumstances or what was going on at 22 Kettle Point or at Stoney Point? 23 A: No. I can't -- I can't recall what 24 the conversation was, but I advised him that I would 25 immediately return to Kettle Point.
111 Q: And then what did you do? 2 A: My family and I, we left for Kettle 3 Point immediately. 4 Q: You left Kettle Point? 5 A: No, left Sarnia for Kettle Point. 6 Q: Okay. And what route did you take 7 back to -- on returning to Kettle Point? 8 A: I took the old lakeshore road known 9 as County Road 7. 10 Q: Did you encounter any checkpoints 11 along the way? 12 A: I can't recall, I don't think I did. 13 Q: And did you see any out-of-the- 14 ordinary police activity or presence along the way? 15 A: I can't recall. 16 Q: Okay. So, what happened next? 17 A: I returned to my residence and put my 18 uniform on and went on duty. I think I met Constable 19 Kaczanowski at the Kettle Point Police Station. We then 20 went out on patrol from there and I believe we were 21 sitting down on what's known now as Rawlings Road and 22 West Ipperwash Road. 23 Q: Okay. And what happened there? 24 A: We were listening to the monitor, the 25 police radio, for any information on what was actually
121 going on. I can't recall any transmissions at this point 2 in time. 3 Q: Just to take you back, on your return 4 to Kettle Point, did you see any people gathered in front 5 of what we've heard described as the plaza or Point's 6 Preference Mall? 7 A: I believe there was a -- a lot of 8 people up in that area at that time. 9 Q: Okay. Could you approximate how 10 many? 11 A: There was probably at least a hundred 12 (100) people. 13 Q: Did you stop in the parking lot in 14 front of the plaza? 15 A: I believe at some point in time we 16 stopped, if I can remember, Tom Bressette I -- I think 17 was addressing the crowd with a loudspeaker asking them 18 to -- to more or less calm down and trying to advise what 19 had taken place. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall roughly what 21 time that would've occurred? 22 A: That would of been around midnight or 23 after. 24 Q: And when did you -- when would you 25 estimate that you returned to Kettle Point from Sarnia?
131 A: It would have had to been around 2 11:30, between 11:30 and midnight. 3 Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations 4 with Constable Kaczanowski about him attending at the 5 Forest Detachment that evening? 6 A: He -- he may have discussed it with 7 me, I'm not sure. I can't recall it. 8 Q: Okay. But he didn't go to Forest at 9 any point after you returned to Kettle Point? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Were you aware at the time of an 12 incident that had occurred earlier in the evening 13 involving Darryl George? 14 A: No. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay. Returning to the -- the people 19 gathered in the parking lot in front of the plaza, what 20 was the mood in the parking lot of the people gathered 21 there that you could observe? 22 A: People were extremely upset, angry. 23 Q: And how did you know that? 24 A: I could hear people yelling and 25 swearing and it was directed at Ontario Provincial
141 Police. 2 Q: And did you at any point see people 3 gathered on Highway 21 with a fire started there and a 4 barricade? 5 A: Yes, there were truck -- truck loads 6 of people taking large logs and debris up to the Highway 7 21 and setting it on fire. 8 Q: Okay. And as a police officer, did 9 you take any action in response to those activities? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: Why not? 12 A: Highway 21 was -- was blocked off. 13 There was no one in the area. There was no traffic at 14 the time. Also under those circumstances I felt our 15 safety was at jeopardy. 16 Q: Why did you feel your safety was in 17 jeopardy? 18 A: Because there was a lot of angry 19 people. 20 Q: Did you speak to the Band Chief Tom 21 Bressette or any of the Band councillors about how to 22 deal with that barricade? 23 A: I probably did. I can't recall how 24 we resolved that to this day. It may be that through 25 Tom's speech to the people on what had occurred, I'm not
151 sure, I think at some point in time the roads department 2 went out and cleaned the highway up. 3 Q: Would that have been that night or? 4 A: It could have been later that earlier 5 that morning. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Did you receive any 7 direction from Chief and/or Council about what to do for 8 the remainder of that evening as a police officer in the 9 community? 10 A: Just to patrol the community, I guess 11 try to do what we could do in regards to -- like general 12 police operations which is usually preventing break and 13 enters, assaults, anything like that, like the ususal. 14 But, in regards to the -- to the incident 15 that just had occurred at Ipperwash, people were 16 extremely upset and we didn't get involved in that. 17 Q: All right. Did you communicate at 18 any point with any member of the OPP on your return to 19 Kettle Point that evening? 20 A: I had a brief con -- conversation 21 with, I can't remember who, but they wanted us to attend 22 Forest -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and how it was put is, stand with 25 them in Forest, and I advised them that Kettle Point was
161 in chaos at this particular time and I don't think it was 2 a good time to leave the community. They had plenty of 3 officers in Forest and we remained in -- in Kettle Point. 4 Q: Do you recall approximately what time 5 that conversation would have occurred? 6 A: It could around -- been around 7 between midnight and 1:30 in the morning. 8 Q: Thank you. And were you in radio 9 communication with any of the offi -- OPP officers on the 10 ground in the area? 11 A: I believe we heard bits and pieces of 12 transmission; it didn't involve us. 13 Q: Okay. At any point during that 14 night, we've heard earlier from Constable Kaczanowski -- 15 we heard yesterday that -- that you and he received a 16 call from the OPP requesting assistance in returning a 17 band member to -- to Kettle and Stony Point. 18 Do you recall that -- that event? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you describe it? 21 A: They wanted us to attend Forest to 22 pick up this individual. They didn't say who the person 23 was at that particular time, but they wanted that person 24 returned to Kettle Point to their residence and I 25 advised them there's just too much going on in the
171 community, can you bring the person, say to Indian Hills 2 Golf Course and we'll pick the person up from there and 3 convey them home from there, which they did. 4 Q: Okay. And who was that individual? 5 A: It was Marcia Simons. 6 Q: All right. And can you describe what 7 you did when you picked her up? 8 A: We just parked beside the OPP 9 cruiser. She then got into our vehicle. I believe I 10 advised her we were going to take her home because what - 11 - what I detected in her face was a look of fear and for 12 Marcia Simon, she was very quiet, and that's my 13 recollection, is we took her home, which is only one (1) 14 or two (2) minutes from where we were at. 15 Q: Okay. Did you have any conversation 16 with her that you can recall? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And did you note any odour of 19 alcohol coming from Ms. Simon? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. We have in front of you, 22 on the desk there, an undated document -- if you could -- 23 that has been provided to us by the Province of Ontario. 24 Do you recognize that document? For the benefit of 25 Counsel, this was part of the package that was provided
181 by Mr. Myrka several months ago; paper copies. 2 A: In -- this -- this -- this is not my 3 -- this is not my Will State. I've never seen this 4 document before. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: It says I've been policing for 7 approximately twelve (12) years and this was back in 8 1995. I wouldn't have written that like that. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: Plus, this incident was, at the most, 11 five (5) minutes. There's no way that I would have made 12 observations such as that, like, if she was arrested for 13 impaired operation, she would have been taken before a 14 qualified breathalyzer technician in Forest and he would 15 have made those types of observations, whether she was 16 odour of alcohol or intoxicated or whatever. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: I would not have made those types of 19 observations just transfer a person home. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: What I would have looked at is for, 22 say, any type of injuries; I may have observed for those, 23 but for something like this, no. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Not at such a small period of time.
191 Q: Thank you, Mr. Bressette. 2 Do you recall when you went off duty on 3 September 7th? 4 A: It must have been -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 6 you move on, Ms. Hensel, is this document in our document 7 base or how could we identify the -- 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I'm sorry, it is 9 an undated document. It -- it has been provided to all 10 Counsel, it -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- isn't in the 13 Supertext database at this point. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 15 that, but is there some way that we could make reference 16 to it for our transcript? 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Sure. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Look, he doesn't -- 19 he's never seen it before. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know 21 that. I'm aware of that, that's why I don't know. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 23 Commissioner, the Witness has said he is not the author 24 of this document and none of the information came from 25 him. In light of the fact that it contains a slur
201 against a person, I would respectfully request that it 2 should not be made part of the record unless somebody can 3 verify that slur. Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 7 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. Bressette, you were 8 saying, when you went off duty? 9 A: Approximately 5:00 a.m. 10 Q: Okay. And when did you go back on 11 duty? 12 A: Approximately 8:00 a.m. 13 Q: And the time between 5:00 and 8:00 14 a.m. what did you do? 15 A: I got some sleep. 16 Q: When you returned to active duty, 17 what did you do? 18 A: I went directly to the Kettle Point 19 Administration building. 20 Q: And what did you observe there? 21 A: There was a number of councillors as 22 well as some police commission members and the Chief and 23 various other people. 24 Q: And what was going on? 25 A: They were discussing the situation at
211 Ipperwash. I can't recall all that was taking place at 2 that time. There was a lot of things taking place. 3 Q: Were you on duty when -- we've heard 4 from many other witnesses, that people marched from 5 Kettle Point to Stony Point or to Aazhoodena, or Camp 6 Ipperwash; did you observe that? 7 A: Yes, I believe I did. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I was just on duty observing along 10 Highway 21 and that's as much as I could remember. 11 Q: Okay. Do you recall how many people 12 were participated in that march? 13 A: There must have been at least fifty 14 (50) people. 15 Q: And as a police officer, did you 16 engage in any policing activity in relation to that 17 march? 18 A: I don't believe so. Just making sure 19 -- we may have provided traffic -- I -- I can't recall. 20 Q: Did you have any communication with 21 any member of the OPP concerning that march? 22 A: Yes, I believe I do but I can't 23 remember with who and what the conversation was about; no 24 doubt it would be about their safety, marching on a 25 highway.
221 Q: And did you receive any direction 2 from the Band -- from Chief and Council about what to do 3 in relation to that march? 4 A: I may have, I can't recall. 5 Q: Can you describe your activities for 6 the remainder of September 7th? 7 A: There was a lot of -- a lot of people 8 in the area. I think the Band Council was trying to 9 discuss some solutions on how they could help people to - 10 - to calm down and not -- not to create any further 11 problems to where there would be violence. 12 Also, Kettle Point was a -- a seven (7) 13 man police force, we knew that. The -- we knew that the 14 -- the OPP probably wouldn't go back into the situation 15 because there could be further violence, so there was a 16 number of First Nation police forces calling Kettle Point 17 saying that they -- they could, you know, send so many -- 18 so much manpower and I believe it was Anishnaabe asking 19 police force if they were willing to send a number of men 20 and Anishnaabeg police force. 21 I believe the Chief gave me authority to - 22 - to set up who -- what -- what police force we'd be 23 bringing down and I think we chose the Anishnaabeg 24 because they could drive and they didn't have to fly out, 25 so there was not a -- a great deal of cost, like flying a
231 lot of guys from the north -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- so, a lot of them drove. 4 Q: Do you recall when they -- when they 5 arrived? 6 A: It could have been around the 8th or 7 9th of September. I think -- I'm not sure when we met 8 with the Chief Superintendent Coles, I -- I think it was 9 the night after, it was at the -- in Grand Bend. 10 Q: Sorry, that would have been September 11 8th? 12 A: Yes, I believe so. There was a 13 number of chiefs as long -- as well as the national 14 chief. They attended Grand Bend and had a -- a circle 15 sitting and -- and just expressed a lot of their opinions 16 and stuff and try to come up with some solutions how they 17 could help people to, I guess, come to grips with this 18 tragedy that there wouldn't be any further violence. 19 Q: As a result of that -- that meeting, 20 were there any agreements reached between -- with the 21 OPP? 22 A: I believe there was a lot of 23 resolutions put onto the floor on how the OPP could help 24 to calm the situation as well as the -- the chiefs. I 25 can't recall what all of those were, but I think the
241 first thing was sitting down and talking. 2 Q: Okay. If I could take you to Tab 2 of 3 the binder in front of you, there are minutes from a 4 meeting on September 9th, 1995. That meeting was 5 attended by Bruce Elijah, Marvin Connor, Miles Bressette, 6 Jim Potts and Paul Trivett. Do you recall that meeting? 7 I'm sorry, that's Document 2002380. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 9 tab number? 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Tab 2. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2). 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I remember this 14 meeting. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, it refers -- the first 18 point in the minutes says, "BCR approved", which I take 19 to mean Band Council Resolution approved; would that be 20 correct? 21 A: Yes, that's correct. 22 Q: Do you know -- recall -- what band 23 council resolution that referred to? 24 A: If you turn over to the next page, 25 2002380 --
251 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- the Band Council Resolution is 3 marked and it advises what would be taking place. 4 Q: Okay. I'll just read that directly 5 into the record. It says: 6 "We, the Kettle and Stony Point Band 7 Council and supporting Chiefs, support 8 a peaceful resolution by supporting an 9 initiative of unarmed First Nation 10 police and persons designated by Bruce 11 Elijah and Marvin Connors, liaison for 12 the residents of Stoney Point Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park. 14 Responsible for patrolling the area 15 concern known as Army Camp Road, 16 objective to keep the peace and protect 17 the properties of those residents that 18 were evacuated from the area 19 surrounding Stoney Point and Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park." 21 Now, was that Band Council Resolution or 22 that initiative discussed at the meeting the night before 23 in Grand Bend? 24 A: It could have been, I can't recall. 25 Q: And would this have represented
261 something out of the ordinary for you police service to 2 be taking responsibility for patrolling or policing the 3 areas described in this Band Council Resolution? 4 A: Yes, it's very out of the ordinary. 5 It was on a volunteer basis to members of the Kettle 6 Point police and also Anishnaabeg; none -- none of them 7 were ordered to do this. It was a volunteer basis 8 whether they wanted to patrol with a peacekeeper and be 9 unarmed. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And if I could 14 have these minutes marked as the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-217, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-217. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-217: Document No. 2002380 Sept 19 09/95. Results of meeting 20 between Bruce Elijah, Marvin 21 Connors, Miles Bressette, Jim 22 Potts and Paul Trivett. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 25 Q: So, as a result of the agreement to
271 patrol the area with the peacekeepers, did you in fact 2 engage in patrols of the area? 3 A: Yes, yes, we did. 4 Q: Okay. For how long did that go on 5 following September 9th? 6 A: Probably a little over a month, 7 couple of months. 8 Q: Okay. And you refer to peacekeepers. 9 Can you describe who they were? 10 A: I believe their names were the -- if 11 I can pronounce it properly, Antitioc (phonetic) 12 peacekeepers from the Oneida First Nation. 13 Q: And by your understanding what was 14 their role? 15 A: They -- one -- I guess once the 16 violence took place September 6th, they came in from what 17 I understand the Oneida First Nation to bring about some 18 sort of, I guess, some sort of structure of some sort of, 19 I guess , settling for -- for Camp Ipperwash. 20 There was a lot of people in the camp at 21 the time and this -- this I know from first hand 22 experience, after this BCR was -- was signed, I was -- I 23 attended the Ipperwash camp with Bruce Elijah and I 24 believe Marvin Connors and the people in the camp thought 25 that the OPP or even the army was going to force their
281 way into -- into the military camp. And we were trying 2 to advise them that this was not -- not true, that the 3 Department of National Defence or the Ontario Provincial 4 Police were not interested in going into the Military 5 Camp and -- and attempting to remove anyone. 6 And the peacekeepers were there to, I 7 guess, bring about some sort of a -- some sort of laws or 8 -- or bring about peace within the -- the Military Camp 9 itself and also help the people to feel more at ease that 10 they were there to support and to help and more or less 11 act as a -- as a force if any outside forces tried to 12 come into the Military Camp. 13 Q: And -- all right. You mentioned 14 Marvin Connors; who was he? Who is he? 15 A: He was introduced to myself by Bruce 16 Elijah and he was one (1) of the spokespersons for the 17 peacekeepers within the -- the Military Camp. I -- I 18 didn't know him or -- it's the first time I met him. 19 Q: Do you know where he was from? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And you also said that you 22 expressed to the people occupying the Camp that the OPP 23 had no intention of removing anyone from the Camp; how 24 did you know that? 25 A: That was most likely addressed by
291 Chief Superintendent Coles at the meeting at the Grand 2 Bend meeting the -- the night before. 3 Q: Okay. So, you attended at Camp 4 Ipperwash on September 9th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was that the first time that you'd 7 gone into the Camp after the events of September 6th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you describe -- I know you said a 10 bit about it already, but can you describe what you saw 11 going on there and the mood of the people there? 12 A: The people seemed to be in a -- in a 13 state of -- of fear, there was a lot of fear. Also, they 14 did not know what was going to take place next and were 15 trying to convey to them that they don't have any reason 16 to worry, that the OPP weren't going to storm the gates; 17 or the Military were given the word by Chris Coles and I 18 think we even had meetings with people from the Military 19 prior to that, they -- 20 There might have been representatives 21 there from the night before down in Grand Bend at that 22 meeting, I'm not sure, but we tried to assure them that 23 they could, you know, not worry about anybody storming 24 the gates or coming in to remove anyone and that we, as 25 First Nation police officers, were there as well as the
301 peacekeepers to try and give some sort of, I don't know, 2 peace to their minds, I guess, from worrying about any 3 further violence. 4 I said, This is why we're here, to prevent 5 any further violence and I know I -- I was received well. 6 I was invited into the Camp for a coffee. I went in and 7 had my coffee and then later on I was taken out and taken 8 down to the Ipperwash Provincial Park and introduced to 9 various peacekeepers. 10 This was a new thing. The police cruiser 11 was marked by white flags indicating that it was unarmed 12 and that we were there as -- as observers and also to 13 keep the peace. We were also there to investigate 14 allegations of break and enters into the cottages because 15 the OPP were getting a lot of pressure at that time 16 stating that Native people were breaking into their 17 residences and taking them over and all that kind of 18 stuff. 19 And so we had a -- I believe we had a 20 video camera to where we'd go to some of these 21 allegations and -- and video tape just to show that a lot 22 of these allegations were not true. 23 Q: Turning to that video ta -- or that 24 video taping, did you -- do you recall which cottages you 25 would have gone into?
311 A: I remember going into two (2) or 2 three (3) cottages. I can't remember whether I had the 3 camera or not. At least two (2) particular cottages that 4 stand out in my mind, I didn't have a video camera. The 5 reason I can remember them so plainly is because one of 6 the owners were at that residence. 7 And that was a white cottage adjacent the 8 Provincial Park right at the end of Army Camp Road. And 9 one of the interesting things that the lady said who 10 owned the residence, is somebody had -- had eaten there 11 and they cleaned up the dishes and put them back. She 12 knew exactly where everything was. 13 Also there was six (6) to eight (8) 14 twenty-six (26) or forty (40) ounce bottles of vodka that 15 were not opened in the cupboard. She said they were not 16 hers. And also there was up in the upstairs of the 17 residence there was a bag of clothes with some porno 18 magazines. She said those were not hers. 19 But, she said -- one of the things she 20 said her residence was very clean and whoever was in 21 there kept things very clean and cleaned up after 22 themselves. It was very strange for a break and enter 23 for people to leave six (6) to eight (8) twenty-six (26) 24 forty (40) ounces of -- I'm sorry twenty-six (26) ounce 25 or forty (40) ounce bottles of vodka. Those were turned
321 over to Constable George Speck at that time. 2 Q: And do you recall the -- the name of 3 the woman who owned the cottage? 4 A: No, I can't recall. 5 Q: And could you describe the location 6 of that cottage? 7 A: It would be at the very north end of 8 Army Camp Road, the very last cottage adjacent the 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 Q: Did you have any conversations with 11 OPP members? First of all, where there any OPP 12 accompanying you when you visited that particular 13 residence? 14 A: Yes. I believe Constable George 15 Speck was there and I can't remember who else. 16 Q: All Do you recall having any 17 conversations with him about what might have occurred 18 there? 19 A: Yes, but he didn't -- he didn't know 20 anymore than what I knew. 21 Q: And in your view -- did you have any 22 views on -- on what had happened at that cottage? 23 A: It would be speculation on my part. 24 I -- I don't know. 25 Q: And did you conduct any further
331 investigation of that particular reported break-in? 2 A: No, that was turned over to the OPP. 3 Q: And you mentioned going into other 4 cottages with the video camera. Were the -- were the 5 owners present when you did that? 6 A: There were other officers involved. 7 I'm not sure, I can't recall at this time. 8 Q: Okay. And what did you find at those 9 other cottages? 10 A: This one particular other cottage I 11 went into was a very large cottage and again it was 12 really strange because -- I mean, usually when we observe 13 break and enters in the area, TV's, VCR's, stereo 14 systems, all that type of stuff would be more or less 15 gone. 16 In these particular residences, this one 17 residence, I believe it had two (2) or three (3) levels 18 with a lot of really nice furniture and a lot of really 19 nice electronic equipment, usually something that people 20 would take, and at this particular time, the male 21 individual who owned the cottage said it was strange and 22 that the only thing that he could see missing at that 23 particular time was a pair of binoculars. 24 Q: Okay. And which cottage was that, if 25 you could describe the location?
341 A: It was, I think, the third cottage 2 over from -- from the white one right at the -- right 3 along Army Camp Road by the -- the first one I just 4 described. I believe this one is the third cottage west 5 of -- of that location. 6 Q: So, it would have been onto East 7 Parkway. Was it on the other side of the bend towards 8 Kettle Point? 9 A: Oh, yes, it would be towards to 10 Kettle Point along the beach, though. 11 Q: If I could turn you to Tab 9 of the 12 binder in front of you, that contains Inquiry Document 13 Number 6000335 and it's titled, Three Day Joint 14 Investigation Relating to the Death of Anthony Dudley 15 George and related incidents. 16 At -- on the 6th page there, you'll see 17 it's titled, Members of the Three Investigative Units; do 18 you see that page? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you'll see there that you were 21 listed, although your name appears to be misspelled, 22 Miles Bressette, under, First Nations Investigation Team 23 Members. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Can you describe how -- you'll
351 see three (3) investigative units who apparently, from 2 this document, appear to have collaborated in the -- in 3 the investigation that took place and is described here. 4 Can you describe how that cooperation and 5 these units came to -- came to exist? 6 A: I believe this was set up by the 7 Special Investigations Unit members. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: And also the Band Council. 10 Q: Okay. Now, if you turn to the 11 previous -- to the second page or third page of that 12 document, it's titled, Memorandum of Understanding 13 between the First Nations People at Stoney Point and the 14 Ontario Provincial Police On Conditions for Conducting a 15 Joint Identification Investigation of the Physical Site 16 and Circumstances Relating to the Death of Anthony Dudley 17 George and Related Incidents. 18 Did you play any part in the negotiation 19 of that Memorandum of Understanding? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes, I believe I was in on 24 discussions in regard to this memorandum. 25 Q: Now, I realize this was almost ten
361 (10) years ago, but can you describe if you recall those 2 discussions? 3 A: I believe they were initiated at the 4 Kettle Point Band Office by members of the SIU. I'm not 5 sure if the Ontario Provincial Police were involved at 6 this time, they -- they must have been. 7 It was in regards to -- there was, like a 8 -- like a two (2) part -- a two (2) part system here, one 9 (1) was for the investigation of the SIU I believe to go 10 into -- to the area where the -- where Dudley was -- was 11 shot and to investigate the scene, also, the bus and the 12 -- and the -- and the car that were involved. 13 And there was later negotiations to where 14 Chief Superintendent Coles, along with Bruce Elijah and 15 Marvin Connors, and I believe the Chief -- there was a 16 number of people involved at the Kettle Point Police 17 Station to where there was a lot of talks taking place in 18 regards to returning of OPP equipment. 19 And the peacekeepers assisted a lot in -- 20 in, I guess, negotiating with the people that were 21 holding those items within the Military Camp and 22 ultimately had most of the equipment returned. 23 Q: Okay. If you'll turn to the 7th page 24 of -- of the document in front of you, it should be 25 titled, Property Returned to the OPP by First Nations
371 People. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Items returned on the 18th of 4 September, 1995. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You'll see a number of items listed 7 there. Did you participate in the return of that 8 property to the OPP? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And can you describe what happened 11 there? 12 A: I believe there were -- there were 13 meetings set up at the Kettle Point Police Department for 14 the Chief Superintendent to meet with some of the 15 spokespersons -- some of the people that were involved 16 at the -- at the shooting that particular evening. I can 17 remember Glenn George, Roderick George, called -- we call 18 him Judas -- Greg George. 19 There was a few members from the Military 20 Camp that, I guess, sat at the table with Chris Coles as 21 well as some members of the Kettle Point Band Council and 22 there was a lot of conversing back and forth. And I 23 believe -- I can't remember who asked me -- it was one 24 (1) of the Kettle Point Band members that were extremely 25 upset at the time because they were holding these
381 meetings and I advised this person, I said, you know, 2 this is part of our job to try to keep the peace. 3 And I said we'd rather see, you know, 4 people sitting and -- and swearing at each other, calling 5 each other names than pointing firearms at each other and 6 this is what kind of took place at first. 7 There was a lot of hurt people because 8 their cousin was -- was shot and killed and I believe the 9 Chief Superintendent understood this. 10 As well, at a lot of these meetings 11 Superintendent Parkins, I think his name was, also 12 assisted and Bruce Elijah and that all came about to 13 start negotiating on bringing down barricades, returning 14 equipment, assisting in the investigation by the SIU, so 15 a lot of good things came out of this. 16 Q: Do you recall, roughly, the timing of 17 that meeting? 18 A: No, I -- there was a -- a lot of 19 meetings. 20 Q: Right. It would have been some time 21 prior to September 18th, though, when the property was 22 returned? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And did you participate at all 25 in the gathering of evidence at the site of either -- at
391 Ipperwash Provincial Park or the vehicles that you 2 referred to earlier, the car and the bus? 3 A: I was there, but I was there as an 4 observer and also security. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: The SIU did the investigation. 7 Members of the OPP assisted in locating debris, casings, 8 such as that. 9 Q: All right. And did this take -- take 10 place -- I note that the Memorandum of Understanding was 11 signed on September 17th, 1995; would that have -- would 12 that investigation and collection of evidence have taken 13 place after September 17th? 14 A: You mean with the SIU? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: It may have -- it may have started 17 that day on the 17th. 18 Q: Okay. And prior to that, did you 19 participate in or observe the collection of any evidence 20 at any of those sites? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Were you aware that any evidence had 23 been collected? 24 A: Yes, by the peacekeepers and also 25 speaking to various members within the Military Camp that
401 they collected a lot of casings from the shooting site. 2 And I tried to convey to them that they weren't really 3 helping the situation out in that they should have 4 allowed the SIU to come in immediately. 5 But, there was so much uncertainty on who 6 was who and what was going to happen next that they 7 didn't feel that was the way to do it and they collected 8 a lot of this evidence prior to the SIU going in. 9 Q: And did you remain involved in the 10 SIU investigation that proceeded in the weeks and months 11 following September 17th, 1995? 12 A: Not really. Once the collection of 13 evidence was completed at -- at the shooting scene, I 14 don't believe we had too much to do with it after that. 15 Q: Okay. I just have a few more 16 questions for you, Mr. Bressette. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL:: Mr. Millar has 21 kindly suggested to me that we enter Document Number 22 600335 as the next exhibit. And I should note -- I 23 should note that the Memorandum of Understanding that -- 24 that I referred to earlier has already been entered as 25 Exhibit P-47 but it's also contained in this document.
411 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit P-218, Your 2 Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-218. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-218: Document No. 6000335 Sept 6 17/95. Three day joint 7 investigation relation to the 8 death of Anthony Dudley 9 George and related incidents. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 12 Q: Mr. Bressette, prior to the evening 13 of September 6th, 1995, did you receive or had your 14 police service to your knowledge, received any 15 information about the presence of firearms at Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park? 17 A: I don't believe so. I can't recall. 18 Q: You can't recall? Do you believe you 19 would recall -- 20 A: Oh, for sure. 21 Q: -- if you hadn't received such 22 information? 23 A: If the -- if we -- yes, for sure I 24 would recall. I mean, that information would have been 25 passed onto the OPP.
421 Q: Okay. And to the best of your 2 recollection -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- no information was received or 5 passed on? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And have you ever heard of Operation 8 Maple or Project Maple? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. We anticipate that we'll be 11 hearing from other witnesses that Project Maple was an 12 OPP operational policing plan concerning the policing of 13 the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 14 Now you've already said that you've never 15 heard of -- of this project or plan, in your view as a 16 First Nations officer and the Chief of Police at Kettle 17 and Stony Point First Nation, would you have had helpful 18 or valuable information to contribute to the development 19 of such a plan? 20 A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure what 21 Project Maple was all about. Being, I guess, raised and 22 growing up in the area and also knowing most of the 23 people within the Camp Ipperwash, I think we would have 24 probably had been able to help out in that area. 25 Q: And I apologize if I've asked this of
431 you earlier, but did the OPP at any time request your 2 assistance or the assistance of any of your officer 3 members in the policing of activities at Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park; the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 5 Park on September 4th through 6th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. And if that request -- if that 8 assistance had been requested, in your opinion, would 9 Chief and Council have permitted you to provide such 10 assistance? 11 A: I don't believe so. 12 Q: You don't believe so. 13 A: No. 14 Q: And do you believe your participation 15 in the policing of the occupation of the Park would have 16 been -- would have added to the effectiveness of the 17 policing of that occupation? 18 A: Yes, I believe so. Like only looking 19 at it after everything was over with, the negotiations, 20 the meeting, with people from the camp later on after the 21 incident, the return of the equipment, the assistance and 22 helping to investigate the -- or helping the SIU to do 23 their job and also assisting in us -- with us in regards 24 to responding to any allegations of break and enters in 25 the cottage area, I would say, yes, we would have had a
441 lot of input in -- I think it would have turned out well. 2 Q: Okay. You mentioned earlier that 3 barricades were taken down as a result of your -- the 4 activities that you mentioned, the negotiations and 5 agreements and after September 6th and particularly after 6 September 9th, where were these barricades? 7 A: There was one (1) on, I think they 8 call it East or -- East Parkway Drive now, down right on 9 the intersection of Army Camp Road, there was a large 10 barricade in the middle of the intersection there. There 11 was also some large cement blocks that were blocking 12 access from Army Camp Road down into the beach area. 13 And I remember discussions on those that 14 at first they had no problem taking the barricades down 15 off of Parkway Drive but there was a problem taking the 16 cement blocks, large cement blocks, from blocking access 17 to the -- to the beach road. 18 And I believe one of the -- one of the 19 discussions there was in regards to, you know, if one of 20 the cottages caught on fire, then, you know, the fire 21 department would have a hard time getting down to that 22 cottage and also getting water if they needed it. 23 So, I believe Bruce Elijah was 24 instrumental in helping to negotiate to -- to take those 25 down and they were.
451 Q: Okay. All right. Mr. Bressette, 2 thank you. Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. Does anybody wish to examine Mr. Bressette? 5 Mr. Rosenthal...? 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. I would anticipate about an hour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About an 9 hour? 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour. 11 Mr. Orkin...? 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: About two (2) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 14 Eyolfson...? 15 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe five minutes? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 17 minutes? 18 And Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thirty (30) to 20 forty-five (45) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 22 Jones...? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Thirty (30) to forty 24 (40) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms.
461 McAleer...? 2 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Five (5) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 4 we might get finished today. As you know, this is our 5 last Witness when we finish with this Witness we're done 6 for the day. 7 I think we should get on with it. It's 8 too early for a morning break. 9 Mr. Orkin, would you begin please? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. I'm 15 Andrew Orkin, I'm one of the Co-Counsel representing the 16 Estate of Dudley George and the Sam George family group 17 members. 18 I'm going to be very brief in the cross- 19 examination I have with you. You mentioned at the 20 beginning of your testimony that one of your grandparents 21 was born at Stoney Point; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: The Stoney Point reserve lands? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So, you're a descendant of someone
471 who is -- was connected with that land and was presumably 2 separated from that land? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Which grandparent was that of yours? 5 A: That was Mildred Bressette. 6 Q: Did you know that grandparent? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You did? So you, in fact, yourself, 9 have a hereditary connection with the Stoney Point lands? 10 You're a descendant of a Stoney Pointer -- 11 A: Yes, my father was also raised at, to 12 a certain age, there also. 13 Q: At Stoney Point? We've heard 14 evidence earlier in this Inquiry that in 1827, the Crown 15 entered into a treaty with your people and that in that 16 treaty, the Crown committed and guaranteed that the 17 original Stoney Point reserve, which included the lands 18 that later became the Base and also later became the 19 Provincial Park, would be native lands in perpetuity or 20 forever. 21 Do you accept or agree with that 22 evidence -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- about that treaty? 25 A: Yes.
481 Q: In the course, and you've told us 2 over the last two (2) minutes, about how the Kettle Point 3 Detachment of which you were at that time Chief, became 4 involved in the hours after the shooting and subsequently 5 in patrolling the Stoney Point area. 6 In the course of the context or the 7 briefings or the discussions or any negotiations that you 8 witnessed involving the OPP, during those events of 9 September 6th and after that, did the OPP or anyone 10 associated with the OPP at any time, mention the 11 existence of Treaty Rights or of that Treaty in the 12 situation concerning the Stoney Point lands, that you 13 recall? 14 A: Chief Superintendent Chris Coles may 15 have mentioned it, but I can't recall. 16 Q: Thanks very much, those -- those are 17 my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you very much. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Rosenthal...? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
491 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 3 A: Good morning, sir. 4 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm one 5 of the Counsel for a group of the descendants of Dan and 6 Melva George, under the name Aazhoodena and George Family 7 Group. 8 Now, first I'd like to deal with the 9 incident with Marcia Simon. You told us this morning 10 that you didn't detect any odour of alcohol on her 11 breath, isn't that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, in fact, you know that she was 14 very sober and very afraid, isn't that fair? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in fact, do you know that Marcia 17 Simon is a person who doesn't drink alcohol? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So, any allegation that she was 20 intoxicated that night is obviously, definitely false? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, you told us yesterday about your
501 notebooks being missing and you told us that in some 2 other litigation you had some of your notebooks. Do you 3 recall that, sir? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And what was the other litigation 6 that had occasioned to you look -- be given a chance to 7 see your notebooks and when did that occur? 8 A: I was involved in a -- a Canadian 9 labour hearing with regards to myself. 10 Q: I -- I see. 11 A: And -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 13 want to hear much about this, Mr. Rosenthal. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, that's not 15 relevant then, yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I -- given the 18 answer I agree it's irrelevant, sir. As you appreciate I 19 didn't know what the answer would be. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL. 22 Q: Now, however, sir, at that time did 23 you notice that your notebooks about September 6th and 24 the time around then were not within the notebooks that 25 you were allowed to see at that time, right?
511 I understood your evidence yesterday as 2 indicating you saw some of your notebooks on that 3 occasion in connection with this other litigation. But 4 that the -- your notes with respect to September 6th and 5 the time around September 6th were not among the notes 6 that you were allowed to see on that occasion. Is that - 7 - did I misunderstand you, sir? 8 A: Yes, there was a couple of notebooks 9 that were missing. 10 Q: That were missing? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Including the notebooks that would 13 have dealt with September 6th -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and the time immediately before 16 and after that date? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you enquire as to why those 19 notebooks were missing? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: They would -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what did you learn about that? 24 A: I know my -- my lawyer tried to get 25 information on where those books were. But we -- we've
521 never -- I don't believe ever got an answer to where 2 those books went. 3 Q: Now, we heard evidence from P/C 4 Kaczanowski yesterday and he indicated that his notes 5 were missing from around this time period. You -- you 6 were in the Inquiry for that evidence, sir, I believe; is 7 that correct? 8 A: Yes, and I -- I explained that the -- 9 there was a point in 1995 to, well, '96 to where the Band 10 council went in and I would usually keep all of my 11 notebooks in a locked cabinet in my office and the Band 12 council went in and removed the locks and I never had 13 access to those documents in that filing cabinet again. 14 However, at the back of my mind, I don't 15 know if this is true or not, we may have at the end of 16 this -- at the end of the Ipperwash incident, we may have 17 been ordered to provide duty reports and all of our books 18 may have been turned over to Inspector Jim Potts of the 19 Ontario Provincial Police. 20 Q: At about when would that have been? 21 What year if - if that -- 22 A: That would have been probably 23 December of 1995. 24 Q: I see. 25
531 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Sorry, Mr. Commissioner, I'm having 4 trouble with my computer. One (1) moment please, sir. 5 Now, in general, police officers are 6 responsible for keeping their notebooks, is that true? 7 A: Well usually after -- ten (10) years 8 after the incident, there was policy that the books are 9 kept. 10 Q: Kept for ten (10) years? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So, that would mean for example, 13 September 6th, 1995 would be kept until September 6th of 14 this year, 2005. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that's an important 17 responsibility of police officers; you learned that in 18 police college? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: You told us about some problems that 21 you had as the Chief of the Kettle Point Police, and also 22 being under the command of the Ontario Provincial Police 23 and conflict, perhaps, sometimes in instructions from the 24 Band Council on the one (1) hand and senior officers in 25 the OPP on the other hand.
541 And then, in particular, you told us about 2 an incident involving, I believe at the time, Staff Sgt., 3 perhaps, Carson, where he was complaining that you were 4 charging non-native people with driving offences and he 5 said something to the effect of, If you keep charging my 6 people, we'll start charging yours. 7 Do you recall your evidence about that, 8 sir? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And you told us that there were many 11 other incidents. 12 Did the other incidents between you and 13 OPP officers have a similar character about us and them 14 kind of question about you're for native people and we're 15 for white people? 16 A: Well, there was some problems. I can 17 remember another situation to where, like, I was a 18 sergeant and I would attend the sergeant meetings in the 19 area here, at one (1) particular meeting I -- I can 20 remember it was taking place, I believe it was in 21 Wallaceburg -- either Wallaceburg or Chatham. It was at 22 the Wheel's Inn anyway and I'm not sure if that's in 23 Wallaceburg or Chatham. 24 I think -- I think it's Wallaceburg, but 25 it was at the Wheel's Inn to where there was a whole room
551 of sergeants from the OPP and I remember one (1) 2 particular inspector was giving a presentation and he was 3 a native person and I can remember the -- the comments 4 coming from a lot of the sergeants that if my education 5 was paid for freely like his, I'd be up there, too, 6 speaking like him. And I was kind of hurt by those 7 comments and stuff and -- but that was -- it -- it's 8 quite prevalent within the OPP. 9 Q: Thank you. Moving to a different 10 aspect of your evidence, you told us yesterday at some 11 point that Chief Tom Bressette, you had heard, first off 12 that he was against the occupation of the Army Camp; is 13 that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that he told the Department of 16 National Defence and others that the Kettle and Stony 17 Point Band Council would discontinue negotiations unless 18 they got people out of the Army Camp; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Now, to whom did you -- did you know 21 he had made such communication, to -- was it to DND, 22 Department of National Defence? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And also to OPP officers? 25 A: Yes.
561 Q: So, he was indicating he wanted the 2 people removed from Camp Ipperwash? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this would have been, I gather, 5 during the period 1993 to 1995? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was it on more than one (1) 8 occasion -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- during that time interval of 11 several years? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And including before the occupiers 14 moved into the built-up area and after? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you indicated that you and I 17 believe you indicated that you knew were advised by 18 someone from the OPP that the persons who were in the 19 Army Camp intended to occupy Ipperwash Park and you 20 learned that, I believe a week or two (2) before they 21 actually did occupy it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And who from the OPP gave you that 24 information, do you recall, sir? 25 A: I don't rightly recall. It could
571 have been from the liaison officer, which was Sgt. 2 Hudson. Also, there was continuous updates or 3 memorandums; reports of any changes within the status of 4 the military camp. It would be like zone alerts that 5 would go out from the OPP and we usually got those types 6 of alerts -- 7 Q: And your -- 8 A: -- updating all police officers. 9 Q: And your understanding was that -- if 10 that had occurred, that the discussions were such as to 11 imply that if the occupation of the Park did occur, it 12 would not be resisted -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- is that correct? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: Similar to, as we've heard about the 17 occupation of the Army Camp was not resisted by the 18 Military and the -- it was your understanding that there 19 would be a similar lack of resistance by the OPP and 20 other forces to any take over of the Park; is that 21 correct? 22 A: Well, I don't know about the -- the 23 OPP's, like, higher echelon, the people that do make the 24 decisions, but I know by constables, there wasn't a 25 concern.
581 Q: I see. And when you got the 2 indication that there might be a take over of the Park, 3 it was coupled with the information that that would not 4 occur until the Park closed on Labour Day; is that right? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And that's one of the things that 7 would have given you and other officers comfort, that it 8 would not be a dangerous or violent occupation? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Now, you indicated that Chief Tom 11 Bressette was pretty upset about the occupation of the 12 Park, particularly? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that you spoke to him about it 15 directly? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you recall what he said, as 18 accurately as you can recall, this many years later, sir? 19 A: Somewhere on the lines that these 20 people were lawbreakers, they were criminals, we will -- 21 we don't support that type of behaviour and we will not 22 and along those lines. 23 Q: I see. And do you know if Chief 24 Bressette's views of that type were communicated to the 25 OPP?
591 A: I'm not sure. 2 Q: When you told you that, was that in 3 your role as a Kettle Point officer, that he was 4 instructing -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- you of his view? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did he expect you then to 9 communicate that to the OPP? 10 A: I don't believe so. 11 Q: I see. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, you mentioned yesterday that 16 there was a pressure coming by, I guess, from the 17 cottagers and members of the Government with respect to 18 the occupation. 19 Did you learn before September 6th, 20 September 6th being the day that -- 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Excuse me, Mr. 22 Rosenthal. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 24 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Is that a quote 25 directly from -- from the transcripts?
601 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: I didn't read exactly the transcript, 6 I paraphrased the transcript, the quote from the 7 transcript is: 8 "Then a lot of pressure started coming 9 by, I guess, the cottagers and members 10 of the government." 11 Your very evidence yesterday, sir. 12 Now, my question was going to be and still 13 is, the following: 14 September 6th was the day that Dudley 15 George was killed; did you learn about the existence of 16 this Government pressure prior to that day? 17 A: I may have, but I can't recall. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Just to try to refresh your memory 22 and if you don't recall then you don't recall, but what 23 you told us yesterday is that you were talking to some 24 members of the Ontario Provincial Police and they looked 25 at is as a political situation that they wouldn't have to
611 really deal with, consistent to what we, as you indicated 2 before, that they were going to acquiesce in this, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: But then -- and then you said: 5 "And then a lot of pressure started 6 coming on, I guess, the cottagers and 7 members of the Government." 8 So, I would -- 9 A: I -- 10 Q: -- ask you to turn your mind back and 11 isn't -- wasn't it the case, in fact, sir, that the 12 Provincial Police were going to be acquiescing in this 13 occupation of the Park, but then there was building 14 pressure upon them from cottagers and the Government and 15 you were aware of that at the time, before Dudley George 16 was killed? 17 A: No, that would have been after. 18 Q: Sorry? 19 A: that would have been -- 20 Q: That was -- you were aware after? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I see. When did you first become 23 aware of it? 24 A: The first night, I believe it was the 25 8th, it may have been -- it might have been the 7th.
621 There was a meeting in Grand Bend with Chief 2 Superintendent Coles and a number of chiefs and that's 3 where I learned that there was starting to be building 4 pressure from the cottagers in regards to the Provincial 5 Park. 6 And also that these people had been 7 evacuated from their homes or their cottages and they 8 wanted them protected. 9 Q: I see. So -- sorry, Superintendent, 10 was it -- Coles? 11 A: Chief Superintendent Coles. 12 Q: Coles -- indicated at the Grand Bend 13 meeting that there was pressure from cottagers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did he also refer to pressure 16 from the Government at that time? 17 A: He may have. I can't remember. 18 Q: At some point you learned about 19 pressure from the Government as well. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Around that time? 22 A: Yes, it was around that time. I'm 23 not sure what levels of Government he was speaking about. 24 Q: I see, yes. So, you -- was it from 25 Coles that you got that indication that there had been
631 some pressure from Government without being specific as 2 to what levels of Government? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So -- and this was an indication that 5 at some time in the recent past as he was discussing it, 6 some time recently he had been aware of pressure from the 7 Government with respect to the occupation of the Park? 8 A: Yes. That's -- my understanding is 9 that the government wanted the people out of the Park. 10 Q: Yes. And you got that understanding 11 at that meeting in Grand Bend on September 8th or 12 whenever it was, around September 8th? 13 A: Yeah. And -- and there was probably 14 other meetings after that where I heard the same thing 15 again. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: But, that was one of the -- one of 18 the reasons why the chiefs set up this out of the 19 ordinary type of patrolling with a marked cruiser with 20 white flags and officers with no firearms. 21 The pressures were building, what I 22 understand to force the OPP back in and I understood that 23 to be coming from the cottage people and also some levels 24 of Government. 25 Q: I see. Now, would you characterize
641 that the meeting of September 8th as partially a 2 debriefing as to what had occurred up to then and then 3 and a discussion as to what should occur in the future? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, as we know, there was a quite 6 extraordinary and quite terrible event on September 6th 7 that ended with Mr. Dudley George being killed. And as 8 we know, at eleven o'clock at night, approximately, on 9 September 6th, a number of OPP officers marched, might be 10 characterized, towards the Provincial Park and marched up 11 to the fence and the sandy parking lot and so on. 12 During these debriefings, was there any 13 indication as to why the OPP had marched on the people at 14 eleven o'clock that night? 15 A: I -- I remember there was some 16 discussion in regards to a person being -- being on the 17 road and being attacked or being -- more or less people 18 that interfering with traffic on -- on the roadway is why 19 -- and it's what I understand is why the OPP marched onto 20 that area. 21 And my understanding was that they tried 22 to get the people back into the Park. 23 Q: Now we have had evidence that there 24 was an incident earlier involving Gerald George and you 25 probably afterward learned about that incident, sir?
651 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Now, I would suggest to you that it 3 would have been apparent to you and to anybody else 4 attending a debriefing that the fact that someone might 5 have gotten attacked on a road earlier that evening would 6 not be any reasonable explanation for why officers would 7 march on the Park at eleven o'clock at night; isn't that 8 fair? 9 A: Yes, that would be fair, it's out of 10 the ordinary. 11 Q: And sir, so, did you not get some 12 indication that in addition to that having happened 13 earlier, the OPP felt this pressure from Government and 14 cottagers to do something about the occupation and that 15 was one (1) of the reasons they marched at eleven o'clock 16 at night? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, my 18 Friend asked about when he learned about the cottagers 19 and the evidence was that he learned about it afterwards 20 at the meeting of September 8th? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, that's 22 correct, sir, but my question is also a valid question in 23 my opinion. 24 I don't understand that as an objection to 25 the question. It is a fact that he said that and I'm
661 asking, if I may, with respect to the debriefing, since 2 the one (1) explanation, you agree -- you agreed was 3 fairly put by me not to be satisfactory, was it not also 4 the case that he learned that one (1) of the aspects of 5 the OPP going in at eleven o'clock at night was pressure 6 that they felt from cottagers and Government officials? 7 He may say, yes; he may say, no. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 9 not sure he knows that. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And he may say he 11 doesn't know, but he should be answered -- allowed to 12 answer, that's all. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. I'm 14 not sure that that's a fair question, Mr. Rosenthal. 15 Yes, Mr. Scullion? 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think that part of 17 those -- that question's already been asked. He's 18 indicated -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, part of 20 it has. Part of it -- 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- what he knew. 22 And I suspect some of what's going on here is, he's 23 asking him to speculate and I'd ask that he not be asked 24 to speculate on -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
671 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- what was the -- 2 on the minds of the OPP during those meetings. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He was simply in 5 attendance and Mr. Bressette was a police officer, he has 6 hopes of being a police officer again. I don't think 7 it's fair to ask him to be speculating -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- on those kinds 10 of things. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't want 12 to ask him to speculate, sir, and perhaps I -- if I may, 13 I'll rephrase the question to make that absolutely clear. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: Sir, when you were at the debriefing 17 or in other meetings, if I may, sir? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: -- or other meetings of a similar 22 type, either the Grand Bend meeting or other meetings 23 within a few days of September 6th or even subsequently, 24 with high ranking OPP officers, was there any indication 25 that one (1) of the reasons -- any indication given by
681 anyone speaking there, not what you thought, not 2 speculating -- any indication that one (1) of the factors 3 that led to the marching on the Park at eleven o'clock 4 that night was pressure that they felt from Government 5 sources to do something about the situation? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 7 that's a fair question. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, so do 9 I. Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: And -- and now, sir, could you please 13 take your mind back and carefully think of -- and see if 14 there were any such indications that you heard? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: No, not prior to -- to September 6th. 19 I would say after, there may have been discussions that 20 there was pressure, but whether that directly affected 21 why the riot squad went to that corner that night, I do 22 not know. 23 Q: But, there was some discussion of 24 pressure from Government officials? 25 A: Yes.
691 Q: And can you recall anything about the 2 context then, of those discussions of pressure at such 3 meetings? 4 A: The Government wanted the people 5 removed from the Park and my understanding is, the 6 pressure was coming from the cottagers, also people that 7 used to camp in the -- in the area there and also levels 8 of Government. 9 Q: Now, it's true, is it not, that after 10 Dudley George was killed, all the OPP officers were in 11 agreement to not do anything to further inflame the 12 situation at that point in the days afterward; the whole 13 idea was to calm things, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So -- and nobody was saying at that 16 point, Get the people out of the Park, we just want to 17 cool things now and then we'll see in future what to do 18 in future, right? 19 A: Well, I think the OPP as well as 20 everyone else realized there was a very volatile 21 situation that there was a potential for extreme 22 violence -- 23 Q: Yes -- 24 A: -- in that whole situation. 25 Q: Yes, because of the anger that was
701 engendered by the killing of Dudley George -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So afterward, nobody was talking 4 about getting the people out of the Park. Everybody was 5 talking about let's see if we can just calm this 6 situation down and then we'll deal with the long term 7 later, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So, if there was discussion about 10 Government pressure to get people out of the Park, that 11 would have been with respect to getting people out of the 12 Park on or before September 6th; isn't that fair to say? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I believe it was after that, yes, 17 there was still pressure but the Ontario Provincial 18 Police was not going to respond to that. 19 Q: You learned about any pressure after 20 September 6th, sir; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You've told us that, you've been 23 clear about that, but I'm suggesting to you that the idea 24 of getting people out of the Park was abandoned -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's
711 answered the question, Mr. Rosenthal. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: -- after Dudley George was killed, by 5 everybody, because of concerns about just keeping the 6 situation from getting further inflamed, right? 7 That's correct, right, sir? You have to 8 say yes, not just nod -- 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: -- sir. So, therefore, what I was 11 suggesting to you is that any indication of pressure to 12 get people out of the Park would have been to get them 13 out of the Park -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think, Mr. 15 Rosenthal, that he answered the question. He did say it 16 was after. You asked that -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- question 19 and he answered that. He answered that question -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that you 22 just asked. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yeah, I understand, 24 sir, but the after could refer to either when he learned 25 about it or when -- or when -- what -- when the idea was
721 getting them out of the Park, and I'm suggesting to him-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and I believe 4 that the circumstances suggest that that is undoubtedly 5 the truth, but I -- but I want to get it from him that -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- he learned after 8 about any possible pressure, but the pressure to get out 9 of the Park applied to getting out of the Park prior to-- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were 11 very precise -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- that's what I'm 13 trying to distinguish. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know you 15 are. I think you were very precise in your question and 16 I think he answered it. I think he did. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm not sure that 18 it was absolutely clear which the after referred to, sir, 19 and I should just like to clarify if I may. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, did 21 you have something you wanted to say, Ms. Hensel? 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Just that I 23 believe that Mr. Bressette had answered that question. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 25 something you want to add to this, Mr. Sulman? You're
731 standing on your feet. 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, I am -- I 3 don't know whether -- why that mic won't work sometimes. 4 I've been looking at it for a couple of days now, but I 5 don't know whether it works. The question's been asked 6 and answered several times -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 8 has. 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- and it's been 10 very clear and My Friend is trying to go back and 11 recreate the answer again. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: And it's been very 14 clear that the answer comes out of a meeting that is 15 sometimes subsequent -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 think -- 18 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: So I think -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you're 20 very -- 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- that's the end of 22 the question -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, well-- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, may I reply 25 sir, please?
741 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think your 2 question was very precise -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes but I -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you were 5 very careful in the way you asked it and I believe -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that the 8 question that you asked was answered. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, sir, 10 I would like to probe this further if I may because, as 11 you can appreciate, it might be important evidence. 12 It's absolutely clear, of course, that 13 he's made it clear in respect of several answers that any 14 information he got along the lines that I'm asking about, 15 he got after September 6th in subsequent meetings. 16 But, I was probing, and I would 17 respectfully suggest fairly probing, given the context 18 and given -- given the situation, suggesting that the 19 pressure to get out of the Park must have been -- the 20 actual pressure must have been earlier because afterward 21 nobody was considering getting anyone out of the Park -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- so there 24 wouldn't be any pressure from anybody afterwards. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that's
751 the question you asked. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I appreciate that, 3 sir, but I should like to -- I should like to pursue it a 4 little bit further and absolutely clarify it and if the 5 Witness said -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe 7 it's clear. You asked that question and you got an 8 answer. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, given -- given 10 the -- the circumstances, sir, I -- I should be allowed 11 to pursue it, in my view, to try to get him to clarify it 12 further, but I'm in your hands, of course. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said 14 after. I mean, that was his answer. I wrote it down. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked a 17 very precise question to elicit that very answer and 18 that's the answer you got; it was after. 19 I think the question's been asked and 20 answered sufficiently. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I should like 22 to try and approach it from different angles but I'm in 23 obviously, it's up to you -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 25 think I --
761 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- to rule, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 3 you've -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I think it's an 5 important matter and I should be allowed to pursue it 6 from some other angles and if -- and if -- and in cross- 7 examination one can pursue a question from -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- a couple of 10 different angles and if -- if in cross-examination one 11 can pursue a question from a couple of different angles 12 to try and get an answer and I should be allowed to do so 13 in my respectful submission. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's an 15 important issue and I believe that you were very careful 16 the way you asked the question and I think the question 17 has been asked and answered. 18 Mr. Scullion...? 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may. I also 20 believe he's answered the question. He's only able to 21 speak from what he heard and what he knew at the meeting. 22 And I believe he's done that. Mr. Rosenthal was very 23 precise in his questioning and he went around the issue a 24 couple of times. 25 And I appreciate what the issue is and how
771 Mr. Bressette may add to that -- the evidence regarding 2 that issue, but he's not able to. And what he said is 3 what happened at the meeting, what he heard at the 4 meeting where he understood that pressure was coming from 5 and the timeframe for that pressure from that meeting and 6 that's all he can speak to. 7 And I'd suggest that this has been gone 8 around a couple of times, I find myself in a different 9 position here objecting to this line of questioning where 10 it may be interesting from another witness but not from 11 Mr. Bressette. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 13 you're right, Mr. Scullion. I think we've had enough on 14 this point. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And so I'll move 16 on, Mr. Commissioner. Thank you. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Now, sir, you told us that the Kettle 20 Point police were not involved in the operation of moving 21 on the Park at eleven o'clock at night on September 6th; 22 isn't that correct? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Now, do you agree with me, sir, that 25 given the relationship that you've described between
781 Kettle Point police officers and the people involved, the 2 occupiers, the Stoney Point people and the relationship 3 that you've described in particular, that if there were 4 any concerns that had to be dealt with about what the 5 occupiers might do at eleven o'clock at night on 6 September 6th, 1995 and approached by Kettle Point police 7 officers to find out the situation and to deal with the 8 situation might have resulted in a much less tragic 9 outcome; is that not fair? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Sorry? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: I mean you would have gone and talked 16 to the people and investigated whatever the concerns the 17 OPP might have had, right? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: They were concerned about cottages or 20 somebody getting beaten up on a road, you would have 21 checked it out, right? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Now, there's a document, sir, that 24 you have is Document 2 in your brief and that has now 25 been made Exhibit P-217; do you have that in front of
791 you, sir? 2 A: What's the document again, sir? 3 Q: It's -- I believe it's at Tab 2 of 4 your book of documents. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It's a meeting of September 9th, 7 1995. You were asked about this by Ms. Hensel? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Can you give the 10 Inquiry document number again. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay. Yes, thank 12 you, I'll give the Inquiry Document Number again. It's 13 in Volume XI. May I suggest to all of us that we give 14 the volume numbers as well as the Inquiry Document Number 15 as somebody who sits there scrambling for them sometimes. 16 So, it's Volume XI and Document Number 17 200-2380, the minutes of a meeting of Saturday, 9, 18 September 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL. 21 Q: Do you have that in front of you, 22 sir? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Thank you. I should just like to ask 25 you about a couple of the matters here that were
801 discussed evidently at that meeting. About almost a half 2 way down, there's a bullet point: 3 "St. John's trailer doesn't look legit 4 and has them concerned." 5 Do you see that, sir? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: By the way, do you know who took the 8 minutes of this meeting? 9 A: I'm not sure, sir. 10 Q: So, it says: 11 "St. John's trailer doesn't look legit 12 and has them concerned." 13 Was that a concern that was shared by 14 everybody at the meeting as far as you understood their 15 expressions at the meeting? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: We've heard evidence that there was a 18 trailer that looked like a St. John's ambulance that was 19 in the Department of Natural Resources parking lot down 20 East Parkway Drive and had been used as a command post by 21 the OPP on the evening of September 6th. 22 Is that the trailer that's being referred 23 to here, sir? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And am I correct in understanding
811 that the concerns of the people meeting on September 9th 2 would be that it's inappropriate to use an ambulance, or 3 what looks like an ambulance, as part of a policing 4 operation rather than a first aid vehicle, correct? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And people at the meeting would have 7 already known, for example, that Dudley George was not 8 translated -- transferred to hospital by ambulance, but 9 was taken in his brother Pierre's car, right? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And so, would people at that meeting 12 have expressed and -- and did you, at that time, have a 13 concern that there wasn't an ambulance available for 14 Dudley George, it appeared, but there was this vehicle 15 that looked like an ambulance that was being used by the 16 police for part of their operation? Was that a concern? 17 A: Yes, it was. 18 Q: Now, a few bullet points further 19 down, there's a -- a statement: 20 "Warriors do not want public to know 21 they are unarmed as it is feared the 22 public may provoke an attack against 23 the First Nations occupiers." 24 Was that a sentiment that was expressed at 25 that meeting, sir?
821 A: No, sir, I don't believe that was. 2 It was very clear that the peacekeepers were unarmed and 3 they didn't care who knew that. 4 Q: I see. But, it was certainly clear 5 that they were unarmed? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Was there some fear about other 8 members of the public, perhaps cottagers, who had 9 misunderstood the situation coming and attacking people? 10 A: That was a great fear of everybody 11 involved. 12 Q: Yes. But, even given that fear, it 13 was agreed by the warriors and everyone else, no guns 14 would be used? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And the -- a few bullet points down, 17 it says: 18 "Occupiers were warned by warriors 19 [quote] 'no gunfire, no guns 20 whatsoever.'" 21 Was that correct, sir? 22 A: I don't know who wrote all this 23 warrior stuff -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- but never has anybody every been
831 introduced to me as being a warrior. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: There were the Oneida Peacekeepers; 4 That's how they were introduced to me. And I don't know 5 who wrote all this stuff about warriors, but that was 6 never brought to me at this particular time. 7 Q: I see. Okay. But, in any event, I 8 would put it to you that all parties at this meeting were 9 agreed that in spite of the terrible killing of Dudley 10 George, they were going to remain, and try to convince 11 everyone else to remain, peaceful? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, you told us about -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 18 going to be much longer, Mr. Rosenthal? You indicated 19 twenty (20) minutes, you've been -- I just want to know 20 if we should take a break because we've been going for 21 almost two (2) hours. If you're almost finished, I'd 22 like you to finish. If you're not, then we'll take a 23 break. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would suggest we 25 take a break and I may presently surprise you as to how
841 short I am afterwards. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 Let's take a morning break. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:56 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:10 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 16 Rosenthal...? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Mr. 18 Commissioner, I only realized there when I was told 19 during the break that you apparently were under a 20 misapprehension that I had said twenty (20) minutes for 21 my examination, I had said an hour, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I realize 23 that. I am sorry, I thought you said twenty (20) 24 minutes. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So, I guess I --
851 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was 2 informed in the break that you had -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir, I 4 don't want to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- offend you in 7 that or any other way. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're well 9 within your range. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, I -- and I 11 will constantly surprise you at being -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- significantly 14 less than an hour, I believe. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Sir, you told us about this unusual 18 break in, in a cottage where the person who broke in 19 evidently left a number of vodka bottles full of vodka, 20 right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: That's a rather unusual break in, as 23 you'd described. Now, you said that cottage was at the 24 end of Army Camp Road near the beach; is that correct? 25 A: Yes, sir.
861 Q: Now, behind you, sir, there's a -- a 2 map that's Exhibit P-23 that shows that area, I believe, 3 could you look around and see if you could tell us 4 approximately where that is on that map, that cottage? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Do you understand what that map 9 depicts, sir? There's East Parkway Drive going off to 10 the left on the map and the -- what's been called the 11 sandy parking lot is to the right of that and the lake is 12 to the north up -- up on the map. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes, it would have been a cottage up 17 in this area here. 18 Q: I see, yes. So you're pointing -- 19 sorry, you have to talk into the microphone, because it 20 gets recorded for the transcript, so, well you indicated 21 -- you said there's a cottage right here and you pointed; 22 is that correct, sir? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And -- and you pointed then to -- 25 just, sorry --
871 A: It's at the very north of Parkway 2 Drive. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Bressette, there's a microphone there that you can hold 8 in your hand. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: Thank you. Mr. Millar has informed 12 that there's another map that they have at their disposal 13 and he's just projecting it on the screen that might also 14 assist, but can you locate it on that map, sir? 15 There's Army Camp Road, yes, and East 16 Parkway Drive -- 17 A: Right at the very north -- right at 18 the very -- right at the very north end of -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it 20 working? 21 THE WITNESS: -- Army Camp Road. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: So, Army Camp Road really sort of
881 bends into East Parkway Drive but, as the P-23 shows us, 2 but if you were to continue Army Camp Road rather than 3 bending you would come to that cottage; is that fair to 4 say? 5 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 6 Q: And it would -- so, I think that 7 describes it adequately, thank you. 8 Now, cottage break-ins is a problem that 9 police deal with all over Ontario; isn't that true? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And so it's a -- unfortunately a 12 quite common occurrence of cottage break-ins -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- because cottages are not occupied 15 much of the time and people, maybe often teenagers, feel 16 they can go in and take things, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So, in the context of what happened 19 in Stoney Point and the concerns of cottagers afterward, 20 I gather that you and your officers were investigating 21 these alleged break-ins in order to determine the extent 22 of the problem, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: and you concluded that, in fact, 25 there was not a particularly extraordinary number of
891 break-ins around this time or anything, right? 2 A: No, sir, there was not. 3 Q: There was not? So any -- any 4 allegations that people had been running wild as far as 5 break-ins were not accurate allegations? 6 A: That's true. 7 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Bressette. 8 Mr. Commissioner, thank you. I told you 9 you'd be pleasantly surprised. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I hope I 11 didn't cut you short. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You -- you did at 13 one (1) point, but that was for a different reason. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 15 Mr. Rosenthal. 16 I believe that Mr. George has some 17 questions now that he hadn't -- 18 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I'd indicated I 19 might, but I'm going to pass. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 21 to pass. 22 Mr. Eyolfson...? 23 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you. Good 24 morning Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good
901 morning. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette, my name 5 is Brian Eyolfson. I'm one (1) of the lawyers for 6 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto and I just have a 7 few questions for you. 8 Now, in the early '90s, I believe you 9 indicated there were seven (7) First Nations constables 10 in the Kettle and Stony Point Police Service; is that 11 correct? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And the majority of them were members 14 of the community? 15 A: Yes, the majority. 16 Q: Approximately how many of the seven 17 (7)? 18 A: Four (4). 19 Q: Okay. And you're a member of the 20 community, obviously? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Okay. And as a member of the 23 community I assume you would have known a lot of the 24 members of the -- the Kettle Point and Stony Point 25 community?
911 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And I assume there's -- there's pros 3 -- both pros and cons to policing a relatively small 4 community where you know most of the members? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And maybe you could just tell us, are 7 there any things that you -- you found particularly 8 challenging or difficult about policing in that 9 environment? 10 A: Well, you -- you deal with the same 11 people all the time and it's a small community. It is 12 difficult in -- in that wise -- to where a police officer 13 becomes stagnant in his service to that community and I 14 guess not up to 100 percent sometimes. 15 And -- but then again, on the good points, 16 if something serious happens I found my experience, 17 because you know people, they know you, we understand 18 each other where we're coming from, and it's easier to 19 resolve things that could become serious at -- at times, 20 but I -- I see also that could work against you at times, 21 which I was lucky enough it never did, so -- 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, yesterday you 23 spoke about some protocols with the OPP concerning when 24 and how OPP assistance would be -- would be asked for if 25 needed. Do you recall that?
921 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 2 Q: Okay. Now, were there any protocols 3 in place with the OPP concerning or -- or whereby First 4 Nations constables would assist the OPP, for example, if 5 there was any conflict that the OPP we're dealing with, 6 with a First Nations individual at that time? 7 A: Yes, I believe this protocol that 8 Kettle Point had with the OPP worked for both sides in 9 regards to if they needed our assistance in dealing with 10 First Nation members, if we could assist, we would. 11 Q: Okay. But, I take it, you were 12 clear from your evidence so far, that you were not asked 13 to assist the OPP during the occupation of the Park by 14 First Nations people leading up to and just prior to 15 September 6th, '95? 16 A: That's true. 17 Q: Okay. Now, shortly after September 18 6th, 1995, you indicated that the Anishnaabeg Police 19 Service came down to assist; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And just to clarify, was that an 22 offer made by the Anishnaabeg Police Service to your 23 community? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Okay. And that was, of course,
931 accepted? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And in your view, was there a need 4 for that assistance at that time? 5 A: Yes, sir, there was. 6 Q: And maybe you could just explain a 7 little bit of why that was? 8 A: It was to assist in patrols of -- of 9 the Kettle Point community, also the patrols of -- of the 10 Ipperwash area in the -- the -- I guess, the special 11 duties regarding the -- responding to break and enters in 12 the Ipperwash area surrounding the camp and also having a 13 peacekeeper ride with them. 14 And so we were doing a couple of types of 15 policing; one (1) was to police Kettle Point, the other 16 one would be specifically for policing of the cottage 17 areas around Camp Ipperwash. 18 Q: Okay. But, was there a need for -- 19 or a need seen to have more First Nations police officers 20 present? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Yes. Okay. Now, shortly after you 23 left the Kettle and Stony Point police service, I 24 understand it became part of the Anishnaabeg of that 25 police service?
941 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was that in the planning while 3 you were still with the Kettle Point police service? 4 A: There were negotiations with the 5 Anishnaabeg to come in and provide a presentation to the 6 Band Council and that was in -- in January of 1997, but 7 the Chief refused; then he was happy with the Kettle 8 Point police but other things happened after that so. 9 Q: Okay. Okay. Those are all my 10 questions. Thank you very much. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. I think Andrea Tuck-Jackson is up next. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 17 Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 morning. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON. 22 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: I am going to be asking you some 25 questions on behalf of the OPP.
951 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I want to begin, if I may, on the 3 issue of territorial jurisdiction. And it's quite clear, 4 I gather, that the area that is sometimes described as 5 Camp Ipperwash fell within the territorial jurisdiction 6 of the OPP from a policing perspective. 7 A: Yes, ma'am. 8 Q: And you'd also agree with me, I 9 trust, that the area sometimes described as the Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park similarly fell withing the territorial 11 jurisdiction of the OPP? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: And in addition, the area that 14 bordered that land piece that sometimes in total 15 described as -- as Stoney Point or Aazhoodena and I'm 16 referring to the perimeter established by Army Camp Road, 17 Highway 21 and Outer Drive, those roads that ran around 18 the perimeter of that land also fell within the 19 territorial jurisdiction of the OPP? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And so I gather then when 22 you indicated to us yesterday, that when the occupiers 23 first moved onto the land in May of 1993, you didn't 24 regard it as a policing issue for your police force 25 because the land in question fell within the territorial
961 jurisdiction of the OPP? 2 A: Yes, that's true. 3 Q: And that continued right up to and 4 including the occupation of the Park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So, again, in your view the policing 7 of the Park did not fall within the territorial 8 jurisdiction of your police force? 9 A: That's true. 10 Q: Okay. Now, I want to move on to -- 11 to explore a little bit. I don't go -- want to go into a 12 great deal of detail because I think you've already 13 covered the area quite thoroughly. 14 But, I want to explore the administrative 15 tension if I can put it that way, between your police 16 force and the OPP police force, all right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And would it be fair to say that 19 during the early 1990's and moving into 1995, there was a 20 movement by the Chief and Council at Kettle Point to try 21 and -- and establish your police force as more of a 22 stand-alone police force; would that be fair? 23 A: That's true. 24 Q: All right. And as an example of 25 that, and perhaps for the benefit of -- of everyone here,
971 when I'm referring to a stand-alone police force, that's 2 different from the type of police force that the Kettle 3 and Stony Point force was under the tripartite agreement, 4 correct? 5 A: That's true. 6 Q: All right. They're two (2) beasts if 7 I can put it that way. 8 All right. And as an example of trying to 9 establish its independence, you for example, were -- were 10 given the title of chief of that police force -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- that would be an example of the 13 Band and Council trying to create a stand-alone force? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And, I trust, that a 16 second example of that would be that there was this 17 protocol that was entered into by the Band and the OPP 18 that governed the extent to which your officers were to 19 assist OPP officers outside of your territory? 20 A: That's true. 21 Q: And again, there was this movement 22 that the Chief and Council didn't want your officers 23 assisting OPP officers, especially if there were needs 24 within your territory, policing needs within your -- 25 A: Yes.
981 Q: -- territory? 2 Okay. And you've already given us a 3 number of examples of that kind of tension, I just want 4 to go back and highlight them. 5 For example, you've told us, and frankly 6 we'd already heard it through officer Kaczanowski, that 7 in relation to the helicopter shooting, on the night of 8 August the 24th, 1993, the OPP had requested the 9 assistance of your force to assist them in relation to 10 some aspect of that incident, correct? 11 A: That's true. 12 Q: But, it was a result of a directive 13 from Chief Tom Bressette that your force was pulled out 14 of involvement in that incident? 15 A: That's true. 16 Q: All right. And I anticipate, sir, 17 that we're going to hear that not that long afer 12:30 18 a.m. on September the 7th, 1995, Chief Tom Bressette made 19 a telephone call or spoke rather, with -- with John 20 Carson, advising him that he wanted his First Nations 21 officers -- thank you -- he wanted members of your police 22 force pulled out of Forest and he wanted them back at the 23 territory. 24 I trust it wouldn't surprise you to learn 25 that that request had been made?
991 A: No. 2 Q: No, because as you've already told us 3 today, even if the OPP had asked you to intervene in the 4 occupation between the 4th and the 6th, you did not 5 expect Chief and Council to allow your force to be 6 involved. 7 A: That's true. 8 Q: Right. And that was all part of this 9 tension that prevailed between your police force and the 10 OPP on an administrative level? 11 A: I'm not sure. 12 Q: All right. That may be a conclusion 13 for me to argue at the end of the day. 14 I gather, sir, there was another issue of 15 tension and again, it seems to have to deal with when 16 it's appropriate for OPP officers to come onto your 17 territory and vice versa, but I understand, for example, 18 in 1995 there was an issue as to the appropriateness of 19 officers such as Vince George, Luke George, Phil George 20 and Carmen Bressette to come onto your territory in 21 uniform when they were on duty? 22 A: I believe that was a result of 23 numerous complaints from community members. 24 Q: Okay. So, you're not disagreeing 25 with me that that -- there was an issue and there was a
1001 problem within the community, as seen by some of its 2 members, with these officers coming onto the territory 3 while they were on duty and in uniform? 4 A: I don't think there was a problem 5 with them, like, coming to visit their families, but I 6 think there was an issue with the Ontario Provincial 7 Police in regards to more or less double policing. 8 Q: Double policing in the sense that 9 these officers were offering additional assistance? 10 A: Oh, no, no. It has nothing to do 11 with assistance. It means more or less, the way it was 12 put to me by, I believe it was Inspector Turner at a 13 meeting, is that they didn't want to overlap of police 14 services within Kettle Point; there was plenty of 15 policing there already and they were shorthanded, so, 16 they didn't really want more or less a -- well, they 17 couldn't even afford an overlap of policing. 18 As for other people coming down to the 19 reserve to, you know, to spend time with their families 20 and stuff, I don't think -- I don't think the Band meant 21 for that to mean that. It was in regards to policing. 22 Q: All right. But, in any event, that's 23 another example of -- of the administrative tension that 24 existed between the two (2) police services? 25 A: Well, there was a protocol in place
1011 and if people were coming down in regards to do policing, 2 yeah, there was a problem. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: But, other than that, no. 5 Q: All right. Now, you also described 6 an example where you -- you had a debate, for lack of a 7 better word, with John Carson and -- about the 8 appropriateness of your officers policing on areas 9 outside of the Kettle Point territory or Kettle Point and 10 Stony Point territory. 11 Do you recall that -- that evidence that 12 you gave yesterday? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And I trust that this 15 discussion that you had, or debate that you had, with 16 Officer Carson, again related back to this protocol as to 17 when it was appropriate for your officers to be policing 18 outside of your territory and vice versa? 19 A: No, this protocol wasn't in place 20 yet. 21 Q: It wasn't in place yet? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Perhaps, this was an 24 example of an incident that gave rise to the need for the 25 development of the protocol then?
1021 A: Perhaps. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. And just to 3 -- to understand the context of -- of the conversation, I 4 -- I trust that the thrust of it was, was that if your 5 officers saw it fit to be policing on an area outside of 6 your territorial jurisdiction, then it would follow that 7 it was appropriate for OPP officers to be policing within 8 your territorial jurisdiction. 9 Was that sort of the -- the thrust of the 10 debate? 11 A: No, Mr. Carson was extremely blunt; 12 if your people are going to charge my people, I'll send 13 my people down there and start charging your people. I 14 mean, I never heard any comment like that all the years 15 as a police officer from an OPP member. 16 I mean, that threw me way off. I -- I 17 told Mr. Carson, I said, You know, we both wear blue, 18 we're law enforcement officers, and I tried to explain to 19 him that in around the reserve the OPPs don't have time 20 to police that, of course; there's hardly anybody there. 21 And on Highway 7 coming from Sarnia to 22 Kettle Point there's been a number of deaths -- 23 fatalities -- at the corner of Highway 27 -- or Highway 24 7, Rawlings Road and Highway 21 -- of cars going too fast 25 and going over the embankment. I said, When we have new
1031 officers, I said, we need to train them on radar, I says, 2 and also, writing out tickets. 3 I said, If it's quiet on Kettle Point, I 4 said, we'll, you know -- if it's busy enough on Kettle 5 Point, we'll do the job on Kettle Point, but if there's, 6 you know, no traffic, we usually take them out to the 7 highway just adjacent to the reserve and we do traffic 8 control in that area. And if there are charges laid, 9 there are charges laid. Some -- you know, there's 10 warnings. 11 And, I mean, yeah, there were problems in 12 that area because I remember one (1) particular time I 13 didn't know it was a sergeant's son that I charged and I 14 got a lot of problems over that. I was dragged into the 15 office and advised I shouldn't have did that and stuff, I 16 mean, you got those types of things going on. 17 Q: The -- the people, though, that you 18 would have been ticketing or that your fellow officers 19 would have been ticketing outside of the territory -- 20 these were both aboriginal persons and non-aboriginal 21 persons? 22 A: That's true. 23 Q: Thank you. You spoke, at the 24 beginning of your evidence yesterday, about the scope of 25 your training and you mentioned various areas of training
1041 that you received in addition to the basic training that 2 you received at the police college. And I didn't hear 3 you mention that you had received any specific or 4 specialized training in crowd management. 5 I gather, sir, that you had never received 6 up to September of 1995, any specialized training in 7 crowd management? 8 A: That's true. 9 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say that - 10 - that, in addition, none of the officers under your 11 direct command had had, as far as you were aware, any 12 training in that nature? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Thank you. I'd like to move on, if I 15 could, to the incident involving Darryl George. 16 I understand that it took place in late 17 February of 1995 and again, in fairness to you, you're -- 18 you're giving us evidence in relation to some of these 19 very specific incidents without the benefit of your notes 20 or any scribe notes that would have been generated as a 21 result of the incident. 22 So, I understand if your -- your memory is 23 not particularly clear about the incident, but does it 24 ring a bell, that it occurred at the end of February, 25 1995?
1051 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: Okay. And as you've already 3 described, it arose when Darryl George, in relation to 4 whom there was an outstanding warrant, I understand, was 5 in touch with you and conveyed to you that he either had 6 a firearm or certainly had access to a firearm and he led 7 you to believe that he would be prepared to use it if 8 someone came to arrest him. 9 Is that a fair summary of the concern? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And as a result of that 12 concern, I trust in accordance with -- with protocol, you 13 contacted Mark Wright; is that correct? 14 A: That's true. 15 Q: And your understanding is that you 16 were to do that, because Mark Wright was in charge of all 17 major incidents that arise in Lambton County, so he was 18 the first person you were to contact? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And as a result of 21 speaking with him, was it at that point that you made a 22 request for the TRU Team to come in? 23 A: No, he suggesting brining the TRU 24 Team in. I mean, you got a barricaded individual so we 25 didn't have the expertise to deal with something like
1061 that. 2 Q: That's entirely fair. All right. 3 And again, in accordance with protocol, I'm going to 4 suggest Mr. Wright made it clear to you that you needed 5 to confer with your policing committee to, in effect, get 6 their permission or their blessing to have the TRU Team 7 come on to that territory? 8 A: That's true. 9 Q: And in accordance with the protocol, 10 he asked you to make it clear to them, that once the TRU 11 Team was engaged on that territory they took their orders 12 exclusively from the TRU Team leader and from no one 13 else? 14 A: That's true. 15 Q: All right, and that again was 16 entirely consistent with the protocol that had previously 17 been entered into between the OPP and the Band Council? 18 A: That could have been. I'm not sure 19 when -- when our protocol came into effect. 20 Q: Fair enough. All right. But, again, 21 you didn't have any concerns about the procedure that 22 Officer Wright was suggesting be engaged in? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. And I gather that the 25 barricade began at night?
1071 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. The TRU Team arrived. 3 And the TRU team, I trust, not long after their arrival 4 established an inner perimeter around the house where 5 Darryl George had barricaded himself? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And I trust it's your 8 understanding that that inner perimeter, if I can put it 9 this way, is sacrosanct in the sense that very few people 10 are allowed in that inner perimeter? 11 A: That's true. 12 Q: And I'd trust you'd agree with me 13 that the reason for that is exclusively safety concerns? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And I understand, sir, 16 that by day break, people with -- on that territory had 17 began to breach that inner perimeter? 18 A: That's true. 19 Q: And we're not speaking of one (1) or 20 two (2) or three (3) individuals, there were over twenty 21 (20) some odd individuals who were breaching that -- that 22 inner perimeter? 23 A: That's true. 24 Q: And I trust you'd agree with me that 25 that was creating a serious safety risk?
1081 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I trust, sir, that at some point 3 you had conversation with Mark Wright, who expressed 4 frustration with the fact that that perimeter had been 5 breached? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I trust, sir, that you understood 8 that he was there in his capacity to be in charge of any 9 criminal investigation that followed from whatever 10 happened at the tactical side of things? 11 So, in other words, if Darryl George 12 ultimately was arrested and charged with a criminal 13 offence, that was going to be Mr. Wright's 14 responsibility? 15 A: I believe that would have been the 16 Kettle Point Police responsibility. 17 Q: All right. Fair enough. I guess my 18 -- my point is, that he didn't appear to have anything to 19 do with the tactical people; that wasn't his end of -- of 20 his role there? 21 A: That's true. 22 Q: All right. Fair enough. And I 23 gather then he was expressing frustration to you about 24 the breach of the perimeter, correct? 25 A: Yes.
1091 Q: Because he saw it as a safety concern 2 from what you could tell from your conversation with him? 3 A: Well, according to him, he said, the 4 command post commander was losing control in that there 5 were, like you say, breaches. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: There were people out in front of the 8 residence with ski-doos riding around in front. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: And the inspector was ordering his 11 people to go out and arrest those people whereas you got 12 a person in the house who likes to have an AK-47. 13 Q: All right. Now, just to go back for 14 a moment, was it your impression that -- that Mr. Wright 15 was saying that Officer Linton had lost control or just 16 that the situation had gotten out of control? 17 I'm going to suggest to you it was the 18 situation that had gotten out of control, right? 19 A: The way Mr. Wright worded it to me -- 20 I mean he went into it quite extensive in the small 21 period of time I spoke to him, he told me Mr. Linton was 22 not a field member or field officer, he was an 23 administrative officer and more or less he incompetent to 24 handle this situation. 25 Q: Okay. And did that concern you at
1101 the time that was being expressed to you? 2 A: Well, sure it did. I mean, it was a 3 large area, it would be hard to contain the whole area. 4 Q: Okay. You see, the difficulty I 5 have, sir, with what you're suggesting is that it would 6 not have been within Officer Linton's control to ensure 7 whether or not that inner perimeter was breached; he 8 couldn't possibly have had control over that. 9 So, I don't quite understand the basis if 10 you're suggesting that Officer Wright was placing any 11 blame at his feet. 12 A: Well, the blame was that he was 13 ordering his men to go out into an open area and start 14 arresting people when you got a person alleged to have a 15 AK-47. I mean, it would be like to have this -- have 16 this whole area here, I got a AK-47, and OPP members go 17 out and start arresting people that are supporting me, 18 somebody's going to get shot. 19 So, that's what he was trying to convey to 20 me is that it was not reasonable to order anybody to go 21 out into the -- if you wanted a kill zone area to start 22 wrestling with people off of ski-doos and arresting them. 23 That wasn't reasonable. 24 Q: Okay. And again, you don't have the 25 benefit of any notes of your own or any scribe notes to
1111 assist you with the particulars of this conversation; is 2 that fair? 3 A: This conversation I'd never forget. 4 Q: I trust you would agree with me 5 though, the answer to my question is, no, I don't have 6 the benefit of those notes to assist me. 7 A: I remember this particular time as 8 clear as could be. I remember everything that took 9 place. 10 Q: You remember everything that took 11 place as clear as could be for an incident that has taken 12 place more than ten (10) years ago at this point? 13 A: Mark Wright, from the Forest 14 Detachment, we done surveillance earlier. He gave myself 15 and three (3) Members of the TRU Team a ride to Kettle 16 Point in a surveillance vehicle. 17 That vehicle was a dark blue Thunderbird, 18 approximately a '78, '80, it had blacked out windows and 19 I already -- once he dropped us off, we done our 20 surveillance, we -- went back to Forest, he picked this 21 up. 22 After he gave me that conversation at the 23 school I didn't have a vehicle and he said you take my 24 vehicle, the Thunderbird. I drove that over to the fire 25 station and went to the scene.
1121 After the arrest, he called me 2 specifically over the radio and says, where's my car? 3 And I forgot where I left his car. I said your car's 4 over at the fire station, I'm sorry. He says, no 5 problem, I'll pick it up. 6 Q: Okay. I gather, sir, that at no 7 point were any of these individuals within the perimeter 8 arrested; is that your evidence? 9 A: Pardon? 10 Q: At no point were any of these people 11 who had pierced the perimeter arrested? 12 A: I don't believe so. 13 Q: No. And you indicated a few moments 14 ago that when, as you claim, Officer Wright was somewhat 15 critical of Officer Linton's decisions that you were 16 concerned; is that true? 17 A: I wanted to help. 18 Q: Did you share your concerns, sir, 19 with anyone? I mean, I trust that you contacted someone? 20 A: I immediately went over to the scene 21 and I was met by one of Darryl Lee's brothers who was 22 begging me to go over to speak to Darryl. I could see 23 Darryl, he was approximately a tenth of a kilometre from 24 me, had his hands out the window like this; I want to 25 talk.
1131 And I remember speaking to his brother, is 2 there anybody else in the residence. He said Tommy 3 George was just in there and he left, Darryl made him 4 leave. 5 I says are you sure, a 100 percent sure 6 that nobody else is in that residence? Are you also a 7 100 percent sure there's no firearms -- that Darryl 8 George has no firearms? 9 He said he was just saying that. So, I 10 believed this man and I put my life into his hands more 11 or less. 12 Q: Fair to say -- fair to say that when 13 you pierced the inner perimeter, you did so without first 14 consulting the incident commander? 15 A: There was some -- no, that wasn't 16 true. There was a lot of chatter over the radio and I 17 really don't know who I was speaking to, all I was 18 advising is I was going into the perimeter. 19 I was breaching it, course it was already 20 breached already, there was forty (40) -- like if I'm 21 standing here, Darryl's over here, it's approximately 22 forty (40) people right in the circle right here. 23 I mean, if he wanted to hurt anybody, 24 those people would have been hurt right there. They're 25 all in range, I mean, they're all in the perimeter
1141 already. 2 Q: You'd agree me, though, that at no 3 point did you get the okay of Inspector Linton to breach 4 the perimeter and go into that house? 5 A: I don't know. There was a lot of -- 6 like I say, there was a lot of communication over the 7 radio and at that particular time whether he advised me 8 not to go in there, I would have still went into there. 9 Q: All right. So, the answer to my 10 first question is that, I trust, no I didn't get the 11 okay, correct? 12 A: I can't remember whether I did or I 13 didn't. 14 Q: And even if you didn't get the okay, 15 you would have ignored it and proceeded on your own 16 initiative in any event? 17 A: Under the circumstances, yes. 18 Q: All right. You spoke about the fact 19 that after the event at the Forest Detachment, you 20 learned that the highers-up if I can put it that way, of 21 the OPP, were not pleased with your decision to breach 22 the inner perimeter? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I trust that having regard to the 25 practices and procedures you were familiar with, that did
1151 not surprise you? 2 A: No, it didn't. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I want to move on, if I could, to the 7 meetings that you attended with either Chief 8 Superintendent Coles or Superintendent Parkin or both, 9 after the shooting of Dudley George, all right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you've indicated that there -- 12 the meetings commenced on September the 8th, 1995; is 13 that correct, to the best of your recollection? 14 A: It may have been on the 7th also. 15 There might have been a meeting on the 7th. 16 Q: All right. It was within a day or 17 two of -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- the actual shooting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And those meetings continued on a 22 periodic basis? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And they continued into 1996, I 25 understand?
1161 A: Yeah, somewhere. 2 Q: All right. And the purpose of those 3 meetings, I'm going to suggest to you, was to deal with 4 the issues that had arisen within the immediate community 5 post shooting. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that included issues that related 8 to safety and security of all members of that immediate 9 community? 10 A: That's true. 11 Q: And it included issues that related 12 to who was going to be going on and off the army base and 13 in what circumstances? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it related to traffic control 16 issues in the area around the base? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All of those various issues? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It also related to the negotiation of 21 the return of property which we heard -- police property, 22 which we heard was taken from the vehicles in the MNR 23 parking lot on September the 7th. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And I trust that you'd
1171 agree with me that the subject matter of these meetings 2 was not to rehash the decision that was made to go down 3 to the Park on the night of September the 6th? 4 That wasn't the purpose of these meetings? 5 A: No. That wasn't the purpose. 6 Q: No. And you've indicated that at 7 these meetings concerns of the local cottagers were 8 raised? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And concerns as expressed by local 11 politicians were raised? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And concerns by members of the First 14 Nation community were also raised? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And they were discussed openly and 17 candidly by everybody? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 20 to the extent that any of these concerns were raised, at 21 no point did you hear anything to suggest that it was as 22 a result of Government pressure that a decision was made 23 to go towards the Park on September the 6th? 24 A: That's not true. 25 Q: Sorry, that's not true?
1181 A: Yes. 2 Q: What do you mean by that? 3 A: There was some discussion on levels 4 of Government putting pressure on the OPP; OPP members 5 expressed this. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: And cottagers and people that used to 8 go into the Ipperwash Provincial Park, there was -- there 9 was -- what I understood, there was pressure from a lot 10 of different groups that they wanted the Native people 11 out of the Park. 12 Q: I don't disagree with that, sir. I'm 13 asking a different question. 14 I trust, sir, that you did not hear 15 anything -- frankly, I thought you'd already said this 16 and was seeking to -- to make sure it was clear on the 17 record, that even though concerns had been expressed to 18 the OPP from a variety of vantage points, even prior to 19 September the 6th, there was no indication from you that 20 it was as a result of Government pressure that a decision 21 had been made or that the pressure had caused a decision 22 to be made to go down to the Park on the night in 23 question? 24 A: That's true. 25 Q: Thank you. Now, I trust, sir, that
1191 you would also agree that throughout your dealings at 2 these meetings with Chief Superintendent Coles, that you 3 found him to be extremely reasonable in his approach to 4 these discussions? 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: You found him to be sensitive to the 7 concerns that were being expressed at the table by the 8 First Nation's representative? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I trust, sir, that you found him 11 very accommodating in his approach? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I also trust, sir, that -- that 14 the same kinds of observations were made by you in 15 respect of Superintendent Parkins? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what was clear to you very early 18 on in these initial meetings that literally were 19 occurring within a day or two (2) of the unfortunate 20 shooting, was that Chris Coles wanted it made crystal 21 clear to the occupiers that the OPP had no intention of 22 ousting them from the base? 23 A: Yes, that's true. 24 Q: And I trust, sir, also as a result of 25 your discussions following the shooting, it was your
1201 understanding that on the night of September the 6th, the 2 intent by the police was to move the occupiers back into 3 the Park? 4 A: This is true. 5 Q: Thank you, Mr. Bressette. Those are 6 my questions. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 Ms. Jones...? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 16 sorry, we're just going to be a minute. I want to make 17 sure that Mr. Bressette has some materials before him 18 that he might find helpful in reviewing his -- in 19 answering his questions. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 24 recall how long you estimated, Ms. Jones. I'm just 25 asking because it may be possible for us to continue on
1211 and not have a lunch break and just finish, but if that's 2 not possible, then I want to break it up. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I'll be about 4 thirty (30) minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About thirty 6 (30) minutes? It's five to 12:00. I think -- and the 7 only other person who's indicated is Ms. McAleer and I -- 8 what was your estimate? 9 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Five (5) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, I think 11 it's possible that we'll just continue on and finish 12 without having a lunch break whatever time that is. 13 Thank you. 14 You won't be long in re-examination, if at 15 all? 16 No, I think we can finish then adjourn. 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If it helps, I'm 18 going to be five (5) to ten (10) minutes in re- 19 examination, at most. Again, I'll be as direct as 20 possible but that is what I anticipate. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: Mr. Bressette, my name's Karen Jones 24 and I'm one of the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial 25 Police Association.
1221 I wanted to ask you a few questions about 2 your role as councillor at Kettle and Stony Point Band 3 and you had answered some questions about that yesterday 4 and I just have a few brief questions for you today about 5 that. 6 One (1) of the things that I know is hard 7 about this Proceeding that it's taking place so long 8 after the events and one (1) of the sets of documents 9 that we've got from the Commissioner is the Kettle and 10 Stony Point Council minutes. 11 And I'd asked that a volume of those 12 documents be put before you because I wanted to refer you 13 a couple of documents and I wanted you to have a chance 14 to look at them as well -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- and see if they help in refreshing 17 your memory. 18 And starting out, if you turn to Tab 2, at 19 least I hope it's Tab 2 of that book of documents, in my 20 book it is the Council Meeting Minutes for January 18, 21 1993. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Is that the same as with yours? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I wanted to ask you a couple of
1231 questions about this, because I understand from the top 2 of the document that you were one (1) of the council 3 members who was present at that meeting? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I specifically wanted to 6 ask you a little bit about some of the agenda item that 7 was set out on page 2 of the document. 8 And if you want to have a minute just to 9 look at that, please take -- take whatever time you need. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Are you all set? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. I understand from -- we know 16 that by January 18th, 1993, that the occupation by a 17 group of people at the base would have been in place for 18 about seven (7) months. 19 A: Yes. 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I'm sorry. July 21 29th, 1990 -- or May 6th, 1993 would that begin? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, you know what, my 23 brain is not working well. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1241 Q: Okay. So, this is -- this meeting 2 then, this regular Council meeting and the issues raised 3 at it were issues that were raised before the occupation 4 took place. Sorry, I -- I have my times wrong. 5 I understand though from looking at those 6 minutes, that as of January 1993 there was a group of 7 people who were calling themselves the Stoney Point Group 8 or the Stoney Point Band or somehow identifying 9 themselves as having different interests than the Kettle 10 and Stony Point Band; is that right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And there were a number of 13 elders and there's a listing at the top. Marlene Cloud, 14 Rosalie Manning, Pearl George, Elaine George, Greta 15 Oliver, Janet Cloud, Janet Stevens, Gordon Cloud, 16 Clifford George and Floyd McIntyre who were part of a 17 group who was identifying themselves as having different 18 interests perhaps than the Stony and Kettle Point Band? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that there were some issues that 21 were raised at that time about whether that Stoney Point 22 Group wanted to be separate and apart from the Kettle and 23 Stony Point Band or work together with them; is that 24 right? 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: Okay. And I take it from looking 2 about half way down the page under the bullet point that 3 starts: 4 "Due to discussion with Robert George 5 prior to Council, the Council of Elders 6 must meet with Robert George and get 7 clear direction on what their position 8 is." 9 I take it that as of that time in January 10 of 1993, that it wasn't clear to the Kettle and Stony 11 Point Band and Council what exactly position that group 12 was taking on the issue of whether or not they were 13 separate or whether or not they were working together 14 with the Band; is that fair? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And if you turn over to the third 17 page of that document, we see that there's a motion half 18 way down the page, Motion Number 2, that an election 19 committee be established with the mandate to develop a 20 draft election -- elective system to meet the needs of 21 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation people and it talks 22 about the committee members. 23 And I take it from looking at that and the 24 discussion that happened earlier, that one (1) of the 25 things at that time that the Kettle and Stony Point Band
1261 Council wanted to do was to try and work with that group 2 of people that was identifying themselves as the Stoney 3 Pointers? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And that would include 6 ensuring that there was an election system at Kettle and 7 Stony Point Band that would include their interests; is 8 that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And if I can then ask you to 11 turn over to Tab 4 which is a minutes of a regular 12 Council meeting and it's dated Tuesday, June the 7th, 13 1993. And again, if you want a minute to look at that 14 document, Mr. Bressette, you ought to do that. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: Okay. And under these paragraphs 20 that deal with DND meeting with Fred Maguire, when I read 21 the information below, it appeared to me that at that 22 time, that is as of June 1993, which was after a group 23 identifying themselves as the Stoney Point Group had 24 moved onto the Base, that there was some confusion or 25 concern as to whether the Kettle and Stony Point Band and
1271 that Stoney Point Group would be able to work together 2 and work together, particularly in terms of negotiating 3 with the Department of National Defence. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then if I can ask you to turn 6 over to Tab 6, you'll see that that is the minutes of the 7 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation Council of August 8 5th, 1993 and again, take a minute if you'd like, to read 9 that. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you'll see under the 15 heading, National Defence Meeting With Tom Siddon, August 16 4th, 1993, is that there's some information indicating 17 that according -- at least according to the minutes, that 18 Tom Siddon's position at that time, the Minister of 19 National Defence, was that when the time came to 20 negotiate regarding the land at the Army Camp Base, that 21 he would only negotiate with the elected Chief and 22 Council of Kettle and Stony Point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it goes on at the bottom of that 25 area to say:
1281 "The Chief..." 2 And I take that's Tom Bressette: 3 "...is to meet with the people who are 4 occupying Camp Ipperwash to discuss the 5 concerns discussed." 6 Do you know whether or not at or about 7 that time, Chief Bressette did have discussions with the 8 people who were occupying Camp Ipperwash about the 9 position that only Kettle and Stony Point would be 10 negotiating with the Department of National Defence? 11 A: I'm not sure whether Tom was directly 12 involved himself or whether he had a delegation go down 13 to try and put forth his -- what he learned from the -- 14 the Minister. 15 Q: Okay. And you gave some evidence 16 yesterday and a little bit today about calls you heard 17 from Tom Bressette to the Department of National Defence 18 to the OPP and perhaps to others indicating that he was 19 not prepared to negotiate about the return of the Base 20 until the people occupying Camp Ipperwash had left? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Can you help us a little bit with 23 timing or does this give you any assistance about whether 24 or not those calls would have happened in -- in or around 25 1993 or would they have taken place later?
1291 A: They could have taken place -- I'm 2 not really sure, it would have been between '93 to '95. 3 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge -- and 4 if you don't know, you -- you ought to say so, did Chief 5 Bressette ever commun -- communicate to Council or to the 6 people who were occupying Camp Ipperwash that he was not 7 prepared to negotiate until the occupiers had left the 8 Base? 9 A: He may have but I can't recall. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it might 15 be appropriate that, with respect to these minutes, that 16 we assign a whole book on minute and number because Ms. 17 Jones has referred to at least a couple of them -- I mean 18 exhibit number. 19 And we haven't marked this book as an 20 exhibit yet and it's a book of exhibits that were 21 provided by Kettle and Stony Point First Nation and 22 there's no issue that they are the exhibits of -- minutes 23 of the First Nations. 24 So, I suggest that -- that we mark them as 25 the next exhibit and particularly as the fact that Ms.
1301 Jones has referred at least to a couple of them now. 2 She's referred to them before, we should have perhaps 3 done it before. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-219, Your 5 Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 7 a copy? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we'll use the 9 witness copy. We don't have a huge supply -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, two 11 nineteen (219). 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-219: Kettle and Stony Point 14 Council Meeting Minutes. Jan 15 05/93 to Nov 27/95. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Okay. And Mr. Bressette I wanted to 19 move away from your role as a councillor to your role as 20 a police officer and Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked you some 21 questions about a stand alone force and I just wanted to 22 make sure that it was clear to everybody and for the 23 record, what that means. 24 I understand that at least in some -- in 25 some ways you can break down policing into three (3)
1311 components; administrative, financial and the actual 2 provision of police services. 3 Is that -- is that -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- one way to do it -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that makes some sense? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And you told us that when the 10 Kettle and Stony Point police were operating under the 11 tripartite agreement that the administrative and 12 financial components were governed by the OPP -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and were, from your perspective, 15 was the provision of police services at that time, 16 governed by the OPP or governed by a combination of the 17 OPP and the Kettle and Stony Point policing committee and 18 band and council? 19 A: It would have been governed by the 20 Ontario Provincial Police, the police committee and the 21 Band council. 22 Q: Okay. And so if you move to a model 23 that would be described as stand alone policing, or a 24 stand alone force, what would change? 25 Would, for example, the administrative
1321 aspects of policing be taken over by the Band? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Would the financial aspects of the 4 policing services be taken over by the Band? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And would the provision of police 7 services themselves be taken over by the Band? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I wanted to then take you to the 14 summer of 1995, because you've made it clear that 15 although the Kettle and Stony Point police and you didn't 16 have a role in policing the Base or the area around the 17 Base, that you had some connections to people in the Base 18 and you also got information from others about the Base - 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- I take it? And I just wanted to 21 see if we can get clear about what kind of information 22 and what your sources of information would have been at 23 that time. 24 And I take it from what you've said that 25 you would have had personal knowledge from your visits to
1331 the Base what was going on there? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I take it also, from what you've 4 said, that would be limited -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- because you weren't there often? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you receive calls from people who 9 were occupying the base, giving you information about 10 what was going on or expressing concerns about what was 11 going on? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you receive calls from cottagers 14 in the areas surrounding the Base expressing concerns 15 about what was going on at the Base or activities in the 16 area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what would happen when you would 19 get those calls from cottagers? 20 A: I would turn that information over to 21 -- over to the Ontario Provincial Police. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And there were times when the 24 cottagers wanted to deal directly with us. 25 Q: Yes, and would you deal directly with
1341 the cottagers -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in those situations? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And can you help us understand in a 6 general nature, what their concerns were? 7 A: Well, there -- there were concerns 8 with people walking in the wooded areas. 9 Q: Around their cottages? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: There were concerns with people 13 driving, I guess, erratically on Army Camp Road, Parkway 14 Drive. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: Stuff like that. 17 Q: Okay. Did you get any calls from 18 people who were concerned about problems on the Park 19 beach or on the beach by the Military Base? 20 A: Yes, I believe we did. 21 Q: Okay. And can you give us, in a 22 general sense, what those concerns were? 23 A: It would be, like, thefts of coolers. 24 There would be some taunting by members that were at 25 Stoney Point at the time on the beach. There may have
1351 been a couple of complaints of assaults. 2 Q: Yes? And what would you do when you 3 received those kind of calls? 4 A: The OPP would investigate that. 5 Q: Okay. And did you receive any 6 reports or calls of concerns by people at Kettle and 7 Stony -- at Kettle Point that they weren't being allowed 8 to go on the Base, that the Stoney Point Group was 9 keeping them off that land? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Was that the concern that you heard 12 expressed? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 15 if you remember, and maybe you don't, when those kind of 16 complaints started? 17 A: Around the time, maybe a couple of 18 months after -- after the Department of National Defence 19 moved out of the -- out of the Camp. There was reports 20 that people were taking the plumbing out of the -- out of 21 the buildings as well as electrical lines and various 22 kitchen equipment and selling it off. 23 Q: Okay. So that there was looting 24 going on? 25 A: Yes.
1361 Q: Okay. The question -- and in 2 addition to that, did you have expressed to you, concerns 3 at Kettle Point that people from Kettle Point, residents 4 of Kettle Point, were not allowed or being allowed access 5 to the Base by the Stoney Point Group? 6 A: There was at times, but there was 7 reasons behind it. The people were either involved in 8 thefts from the Army Camp or narcotics. 9 Q: I'm sorry? 10 A: Narcotics. 11 Q: There was concerns about narcotics on 12 the Base or being brought into the Base? 13 A: Yes, yes. 14 Q: Okay. We've heard some evidence from 15 earlier witnesses that some Elders at Kettle Point who 16 believe that -- who had connections to the land at Stoney 17 Point didn't feel comfortable or didn't feel like they 18 were able to go to that land? 19 Were those kind of concerns ever expressed 20 to you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes? Okay. And I take it those 23 people, those Elders, wouldn't have been people where 24 there were concerns about looting or narcotics? 25 A: No.
1371 Q: No. Okay. And I wanted to move on 2 to the area of around September the 6th and you've told 3 us that your belief was that the Chief and Council 4 wouldn't have permitted the Kettle and Stony Point Police 5 to be involved of the policing around the Park, around 6 the 4th, 5th and 6th. 7 And I wanted to ask you if you had, 8 through your discussions with Tom Bressette or through 9 any other avenue, if you had any knowledge about why that 10 was? 11 A: I believe it may have -- I think 12 there was some discussion in regards to if the Kettle 13 Point police didn't have control of a system and a voice, 14 a strong voice in regards to dealing with the situation 15 at Ipperwash, and it was totally run by the Ontario 16 Provincial Police and we're only told what to do with no 17 input, we would be looked at as more or less OPP -- OPP 18 members ourselves and it would put us, like, in a safety 19 situation. 20 And also we would -- if we were more or 21 less involved in just taking orders from the OPP when 22 Dudley George was shot, we would not have the ability to 23 be able to help in a situation such as the First Nations 24 officers did in helping to calm things, helping to have 25 different individuals turn themselves in to the Kettle
1381 Point police. 2 After the shooting there was a number of 3 them charged and there was a number of warrants issued, 4 so this was all negotiated and if we were more or less 5 just -- when you think about it, I mean this is all 6 hindsight. If we'd have just been following orders by 7 the OPP, we would of been OPP members more or less. 8 Q: Okay. And -- 9 A: And -- 10 Q: And I take it that rationale that 11 you're talking about is -- is something after the fact? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I'm just wondering if at the time 14 around or before the 4th, 5th or 6th of September, 1995, 15 if you had any discussions with Tom Bressette or you had 16 any other reason for to understand why Council and Chief 17 would take the position that you ought not to be involved 18 in the policing? 19 A: What I've -- what I've just explained 20 that may have been some of the conversation at the time-- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- the reasons why. 23 Q: Okay. And as I take it then, the -- 24 that relates to the Kettle and Stony Point police's 25 autonomy from the OPP?
1391 A: That's true. 2 Q: That Tom Bressette and the Council 3 didn't want you to be or be seen as part of the OPP? 4 A: Well, I don't think they agreed with 5 the way the OPP were running things. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. And they wanted you to be 7 separate and apart -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- from that? Okay. Now, I think 10 that you've told us on September the 7th, that you didn't 11 go into the Park or you did go into the Park on that day? 12 You've told us about being at Kettle Point 13 after Dudley George was shot. You took -- you took us 14 through the events of the early morning of September 7th. 15 You're having a little sleep, going back on duty. 16 And I'd understood from your comments that 17 you likely would have spent your time at Kettle Point on 18 September the 7th? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you, in fact, go into the Park at 21 all on September the 7th? 22 A: Oh no, no. 23 Q: Or the Base? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No. The Park or the Base, either or
1401 them? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No, okay. And you told us that on -- 4 after Dudley George was shot and over the next few days 5 that there was an agreement that it would be better if 6 the OPP didn't police the immediate area around the Base 7 and the Park. 8 Was that a view that you shared? 9 A: Pardon? 10 Q: Was that a view that you shared that 11 it would be better, given the tensions and the anger that 12 the OPP not be policing that area? 13 A: I believe that came from Chief 14 Superintendent Coles. 15 Q: Okay. Were you of the view at the 16 time that the presence of OPP in or around the Base or 17 the Park would increase tension -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- rather than decrease tension? 20 A: That's true. 21 Q: And that increased tension could 22 result in problems that everybody wanted to avoid? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so I take it you agreed that it 25 was better that the OPP not be in that area?
1411 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Now you've told us a little 3 bit about meetings and I wanted to make sure that you had 4 before you, all of -- whatever we could do to help you 5 refresh your memory. I think at Tab 2 of the black 6 binder that's in front of you, you were taken earlier to 7 minutes of the meeting on September the 9th. 8 I'm just wondering if in front of that -- 9 do you have before you at the front of the tab something 10 saying September 8th, 1995 meeting? Maybe it's the third 11 page in your Tab? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And it looks from this like at 14 September 8th, 1995 there was a meeting and a whole 15 variety of people were present including Chiefs and 16 Elders, the OPP, members from Kettle Point and yourself? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And does looking at that list 19 of participants at the meeting help you recall what 20 happened at the meeting? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 23 A: This was like a circle sitting in 24 Grand Bend. 25 Q: Okay.
1421 A: People were allowed to voice their 2 concerns and voice in any way they -- they liked. More 3 or less a... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And I take it at the meeting that 8 there was a general agreement that it would be in 9 everyone's interest if the OPP didn't police the area 10 around the Base and the Park? 11 A: Yes. That may have been discussed. 12 Q: Yeah. And do you recall whether 13 there was discussion at that meeting, and I'm looking at 14 the list of members and I see that Bruce Elijah was one 15 of the participants at that meeting and you told us a 16 little bit about his involvement later on. 17 Can you tell us whether some of the 18 specifics of how that area -- how the area, that is the 19 Park and the Base and the immediate area around it, ought 20 to be policed? Were there some specific discussions on 21 the 8th about that, do you recall? 22 A: There may have been. 23 Q: Okay. And then if you can go back to 24 the first page of your tab, September 9th, I just wanted 25 to understand you had said that some of the information
1431 in this you didn't necessarily agree with or it didn't 2 accord with your recollection? 3 A: That's true. 4 Q: Okay. And I wanted to get a better 5 sense of what that was. I think initially your view is - 6 - is that describing Bruce Elijah or the other Oneidas as 7 warriors wasn't consistent with your view? 8 A: That's true. He's -- he's never 9 identified himself to me as a warrior. 10 Q: Okay. Were they introduced or 11 discussed as warriors at the meeting, do you recall? 12 A: No, peacekeepers. 13 Q: Okay. And I take it by September the 14 9th there was already an agreement as between Bruce 15 Elijah and the Kettle and Stony Point police that you 16 would jointly patrol and police the area of the Base, the 17 camp and the perimeter around that? 18 A: This agreement came about this date - 19 - this Band Council resolution was faxed off to the 20 Commissioner of the OPP. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: For their input and it was put into 23 force. 24 Q: Right. So that -- and that was done 25 by agreement by you and the other people at that meeting?
1441 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And there's some discussion 3 about half way down the document. It says: 4 "In the morning, 10 September, 1995 5 according to Bruce Elijah they will 6 videotape all damage done, cottages, 7 ATVs and surveillance." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you know if that videotaping was 10 actually done? 11 A: I'm quite sure it was, but I don't 12 know where the tapes went. 13 Q: Okay. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I might be able to 15 spot that -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- for your 18 assistance. We have some tapes that we're going to be 19 producing. We have given video -- DVD copies made and I 20 don't know if they are the tapes that's the problem. But 21 we do have some tapes. And we'll try to figure out what 22 those tapes are as we go along. 23 But they may be the tapes that Mr. 24 Bressette's referring to. 25 But I might ask My Friend, the document
1451 that she just referred to has an exhibit number and it 2 would be very helpful for the record if she could use the 3 exhibit number as well as the other reference. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 5 Exhibit 217. 6 THE REGISTRAR: 217. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: And looking at the bottom of the 11 page, that is the minutes of the meeting on September the 12 9th, 1995, it says on two (2) separate bullet points, the 13 warriors assure police that no-one is coming from 14 Akwasasne or Gunanugwen. 15 Do you recall discussions about that at 16 the meeting? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And can you, first of all, to 19 the extent you know, can you tell us what that's 20 referring to? 21 A: Well I think there was rumours that 22 armed people were going to come in to the situation and 23 the Oneida peacekeepers made it very clear that they 24 would not allow any armed person within the military camp 25 and that they would never take up arms against anyone.
1461 Q: Okay. And so the warriors assured 2 police that no-one is coming, and I take it Akwasasne is 3 a reserve? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is an area? As is -- and can you 6 help me with the pronunciation, because I hate to 7 massacre these names. Gunanugwen? 8 A: I think it's spelt wrong, but maybe 9 Gonawogne (phonetic) something like that. 10 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what that 11 -- what that is? 12 A: It's a First Nation, I think, in the 13 Quebec area? 14 Q: Okay. And are those both areas where 15 there had been problems with violence in the past? 16 A: Yes, well, Oka -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Akwasasne. 19 Q: Yeah, okay. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: I then just wanted to ask you a few 24 questions. You had said that as part of your role 25 policing, you were following up about concerns from the
1471 cottagers and you had given concerns about breaking and 2 entering or other problems that were occurring with the 3 cottages at or around the area of the Park and Base -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- do you recall that? And you had 6 mentioned at least one where there had been a complaint 7 of a break and entering and the circumstances of it 8 seemed unusual to you? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: Okay. In the disclosure that we've 11 been provided to date, there is an Inquiry Document 12 Number 1000139 and what this document -- it is the logger 13 tape that the OPP kept over the course of September. 14 And there's an entry there on September 15 the 12th and it's on Page 240 of the document. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mention tab 5 of 17 this document for the record. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure, if you look at Tab 19 5 of your documents in front of you. 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I -- actually it's 21 Tab 7. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, it's Tab 7. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1481 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: If you flip through that tab and you 3 look at the one that's got two forty (240) at the top. 4 A: Two forty (240) ? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And you'll see partway down at 8 17:35 hours? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: There is an entry that says: 11 "Brian Deevy updating Bob Pilon 12 regarding the LaPratte residence." 13 He states that he left his residence for 14 two (2) hours and when he returned, his vehicle was 15 stripped. He states that he has been stalked for two (2) 16 days by natives with night vision, also natives buried 17 articles in back yard believed radio equipment." 18 And it says: 19 "Miles Bressette of Kettle Point Police 20 attending the scene." 21 Did you, in fact -- do you recall getting 22 information about concerns of a break and enter at the 23 LaPratte residence? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you go and investigate that
1491 or do you recall? 2 A: I -- I remember being there. 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: And I -- I can't recall how it was 5 investigated to-date. 6 Q: Okay. You don't recall what you 7 found when you got there? 8 A: No, I remember being there, though. 9 Q: Okay. Would you have made out a 10 report of what you found? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Would you have made out a report of 13 all of the cottages that you investigate in the reports 14 of break and entering that you made? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And what -- what would you 17 have done with those reports? 18 A: Those occurrence reports should still 19 be at the Kettle Point Police. 20 Q: Okay. And there's another document 21 that is in the database which is Number 2004611 which is 22 a General Occurrence Report that was filed by George 23 Speck on September 17th,19 -- okay -- which I think -- 24 and if you look at your book, you'll see it's at Tab 6. 25 A: yes.
1501 Q: And you'll see that there is -- that 2 the General Occurrence Report there is of stolen property 3 that you recovered and turned over to the Forest OPP. 4 And if you want to take a minute to look 5 at that, my copy has been -- has a number of names 6 blanked out, and it may be difficult if yours is the 7 same, to recreate what happened, but I'm wondering if 8 that assists you in remembering about any other incidents 9 you investigated about that time. 10 Q: I don't particularly remember this 11 incident. It says: 12 "Incident from the 16th of September 13 '95 at 8:30 p.m." 14 The incident I -- I can recall happened in 15 -- in -- around the morning hours. Maybe I'm wrong, I 16 don't know. 17 Q: Okay. It's hard to remember. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. I then wanted to just ask you 20 a few questions about the three (3) day joint 21 investigation that was done and you had had put before 22 you a copy of the report of the three (3) day 23 investigation. 24 And as I understand from the information 25 that we've had to-date, the first time that you or the
1511 OPP or the SIU went in to conduct any investigation 2 around the shooting was on September 18th or 19th of 3 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 9. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 8 Q: Okay. And I wasn't asking you to 9 refer to something specifically from that document, but I 10 just wanted to bring you back to the area that we're 11 talking about. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I take it that the gap in time 14 between September, 6th that is when the shooting 15 occurred, and September 18th or 19th, would give you some 16 concern as a police officer in terms of what 17 investigation could properly be done? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I take it we've also heard 20 evidence that many people were in the area of the sandy 21 parking lot and the Park during the period of time from 22 September the 6th to when the investigation started and I 23 take it that would also be of concern to you as a police 24 about the quality of investigating that could be done 25 after the fact with that many people in and around the
1521 area? 2 A: I believe the Oneida peacekeepers, 3 there was discussion on that fact that they did keep some 4 sort of control of letting people -- I mean, a lot of 5 people in and around that area. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: So if -- if anybody was into that 8 area it would have been people from the Stoney Point 9 area. 10 Q: Hmm hm. We heard some evidence for 11 example, that on the morning of September the 7th that a 12 number of people were coming into the Park into the base 13 to show support for the Stony Pointers. 14 And that there was a lot of people in the 15 area of the sandy parking lot and people had been on the 16 bus for example and have been driven down to the Park 17 from the Base in the bus and that kind of thing. 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: You don't know anything about -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- what had gone on before? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And in terms of the collection 24 of evidence you're talked a little bit about the 25 collection of casings that you heard about?
1531 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did you ever see or did you know what 3 had been collected? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No? Okay. And lastly I just wanted 6 to ask you very briefly, is that we've heard some 7 evidence that some days after September the 6th, that 8 there was a discovery at Kettle Point of a couple of guns 9 and a pipe that were turned over to you; do you recall 10 that? 11 And what I can do is hopefully is assist 12 you in referring your memory a bit. I have in front of 13 me the Inquiry Document Number 1000282 and that's a 14 statement of Andre Cleland who is a detective constable 15 with the OPP. I don't have an extra copy of it. 16 What I can do is there's a very brief 17 section that refers to you and what I'd like to do is 18 read that to you and see if that refreshes your memory. 19 And if it does, I'll ask you some questions. And if it 20 doesn't, I won't, okay? 21 And I'm looking at page 7 of that document 22 and just so you understand, Andre Cleland was one of the 23 officers who was doing some investigation after September 24 the 6th. And he says: 25 "On Monday, September 18th, 1995 I
1541 attended at Kettle Point Police 2 Department and that was First Nations 3 Constable Murray Bressette. At this 4 time I obtained from him the following 5 items from him." 6 And it sets out a Coey 22 calibre rifle 7 model 39, a sawed off shotgun and a two (2) foot long 8 brown peace pipe. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may. Mr. 10 Commissioner, -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 12 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may, if we can 13 just have Mr. Bressette read to himself what is on the 14 screen as opposed to reading into the record, perhaps 15 that may be sufficient to refresh his memory. I'm just 16 concerned about again, reading things in that don't need 17 to be in the record until it can be identified by the 18 witness. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you able 20 to see it on the screen, it's a -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINEN: Ms. Jones has 23 said that if this refreshes your memory she would like to 24 ask you some questions about it. 25 THE WITNESS: Are you speaking about
1551 Murray Bressette or myself? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, you know what? 3 Have I got that completely wrong? I do. I'm really 4 sorry. I apologize. I was just reading that 5 incorrectly. That's all my questions then. Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Ms. Jones. 8 Ms. McAleer? I think we could keep going 9 with that because there's a good chance that we finish 10 so, Ms. McAleer. I know everybody's probably hungry and 11 anxious to go, but I think we'll just -- we'll just keep 12 going a bit longer. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER. 17 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 18 A: Good morning. 19 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm 20 one of the lawyers who's acting for the former Premier, 21 Mike Harris. I just have two (2) quick areas that I want 22 to ask you some questions about. 23 The first pertains to your evidence 24 regarding your knowledge of burial grounds in the 25 Provincial Park.
1561 And I understand that you had heard 2 rumours about the possibilities of burial grounds in the 3 Provincial Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Did you ever discuss those rumours 6 with Chief Tom Bressette? 7 A: Yes, probably did. 8 Q: Do you recall what the Chief's 9 response was to you with respect to those rumours? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I think he wasn't aware that there 14 was any. Like, you know, this -- this was an ongoing 15 thing to try and find out whether there were or whether 16 there wasn't. 17 Q: So you understood that the Chief did 18 not have any evidence to indicate that there were burial 19 grounds within the Provincial Park? 20 A: That's my understanding. 21 Q: Okay. And do you recall when you 22 spoke to Chief Tom Bressette about this? 23 A: It may have been before -- like I 24 say, we had a couple of weeks advising that the guys were 25 going into the Park. It may have been before they went
1571 in, it may have been after, I'm not sure. 2 Q: Okay. Do you know if it was before 3 the shooting of Dudley George on September 6th? 4 A: It may have been. 5 Q: Thank you. The other area that I 6 want to ask you about is the events that happened 7 immediately after the shooting and the meetings, in 8 particular, that you attended with representatives from 9 the OPP in the days following the incident. 10 Now, you indicated that a number of 11 cottagers had been evacuated from the area adjacent to 12 the Provincial Park following the shooting on September 13 6th; is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you know how many cottagers were 16 evacuated? 17 A: I was given a number but I -- I can't 18 recall to this date. 19 Q: Okay, do you know how many cottages 20 were evacuated as opposed to how many cottagers? 21 A: I'm not sure. I had that number but 22 I -- I can't recall. 23 Q: Okay. Was -- was -- are we talking 24 about more than ten (10) people? 25 A: Yes.
1581 Q: Okay, more than twenty (20) people? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay, closer to a hundred (100) 4 people? 5 A: Could be. 6 Q: Could be, okay. And I understand 7 that after those cottagers were evacuated from their 8 cottages, that a number of them feared that their 9 cottages may be broken into; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And we've heard that after the 12 shooting at least one (1) cottage, and possibly more than 13 one (1) cottage, actually had been broken into. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you were aware of the fact that 16 many of the cottagers were upset about what had happened 17 on September 6th and the fact that they had now been 18 evacuated from their homes? 19 A: Excuse me, ma'am, I'd like to go back 20 a little bit. I don't think there was a specific date, 21 whether it was before or after the shooting that the -- 22 the cottage was broken into. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Not that I can recall at this time. 25 The owner may have given a date, but I can't remember at
1591 this time. 2 Q: Okay. That's fine. But after the 3 cottagers were evacuated and the cottages were left 4 vacant, was it your understanding that a number of those 5 cottagers were worried that perhaps their cottages might 6 be broken into? 7 A: Well, I know there was complaints 8 coming from them stating that natives were occupying 9 their -- their cottages and living in them and taking 10 things out. 11 Q: And you heard that from some of the 12 cottagers? 13 A: No, I heard that from some police 14 personnel. 15 Q: All right. So I gather, then, that 16 the pressure on the OPP that you perceived in the days 17 following the shooting to which you referred earlier 18 today in your evidence, was coming primarily from the 19 cottagers who'd been evacuated in that area? 20 A: I don't think it was perceived. It 21 was discussion with the OPP that they were being 22 pressured by the cottagers, by former people that were in 23 the Ipperwash Provincial Park and levels of government. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Is what I remember.
1601 Q: Well, with respect to the levels of 2 government, did anybody within the OPP ever tell you that 3 there was any pressure on them after the shooting from 4 anyone within the provincial government to remove the 5 occupiers from the Provincial Park? 6 A: I'm not sure what level of government 7 you're speaking of. 8 Q: Okay, so you didn't hear it directly 9 then? 10 A: No, not from a level of government. 11 Q: Okay. And not from the OPP? They 12 didn't tell you exactly who it is that had voiced those 13 concerns or was putting pressure on them? 14 A: Yes. It was from members of the OPP 15 but I can't remember who they were. It may have been 16 Chris Coles himself. 17 Q: Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Mr. 18 Bressette. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 25 Q: I don't think we should leave that
1611 topic just yet. I think there's been quite a few cross- 2 examiners asking you about discussions after September 3 6th that took place in meetings that you attended with 4 the OPP. 5 Do you recall that line of questioning? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in fact Ms. Tuck-Jackson was very 8 specific with her questions to you regarding discussions 9 and whether or not anybody at the police, at the OPP, 10 told you the pressure that they'd received before 11 September 6th had led them to make the decision to go 12 into the Park. 13 Do you remember that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you agreed with her that the OPP 16 had discussed this issue, that they discussed the issue 17 of pressure that they had felt, but that that had not led 18 them to decide to move on September 6th? 19 A: That's true. 20 Q: Is that fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And Ms. McAleer just asked you about 23 a cottage -- a LaPratte cottage, do you know -- or can 24 you tell the Commission where that cottage is located? 25 A: It was located right next to the
1621 command centre on Parkway Drive in the MNR parking lot. 2 Q: Right by the MNR parking lot. 3 A: Yes. It's just -- just west of 4 there. West of the parking lot off of Parkway Drive. 5 Q: So, this is a cottage that wasn't 6 beside the Park itself, it was actually to the west of 7 the command centre on East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yes. Or the east, sorry, the east. 9 Q: To the east of the command centre on 10 East Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how far to the east of the 13 command centre, approximately? 14 A: Approximately one (1) block. 15 Q: Okay. Now, there were also questions 16 by Ms. Tuck-Jackson relating to the Darryl George 17 incident. Do you recall those questions asked of you in 18 cross-examination? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in particular, she indicated that 21 the OPP after the fact were not particularly pleased with 22 your actions; do you remember that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And would you say that that was a 25 fair assessment of the OPP's reaction to what you did?
1631 A: The people that were in the 2 debriefing room as for the TRU Team members, I think they 3 were relieved, they were happy I did the things that I 4 did. 5 Q: The TRU Team members were? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But the upper brass at the OPP 8 weren't impressed were they? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And did they call you in for meetings 11 on that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No, they just -- that's what you 14 understood, they weren't impressed with what you'd done? 15 A: Well, because I wasn't called in to 16 the debriefing meeting to have any input, you 17 automatically feel alienated that they couldn't take the 18 time to speak to you of any concerns you might have. 19 Q: Right. You felt alienated and in 20 fact you were alienated, weren't you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You weren't included in any of the 23 debriefing meetings following that event? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And that was a fairly significant
1641 event, wasn't it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: This was an individual that was 4 alleged to have a gun and was going to shoot at police 5 officers. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you were the Chief of the Kettle 8 Point police at the time, correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you stepped in and assisted the 11 OPP in dealing with the situation? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, you were Chief of police in 14 Kettle Point between '92 and '97, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And before that you had experience at 17 Muncey in Delaware? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you'd -- how long had you been a 20 police officer there? 21 A: Approximately three and a half (3 22 1/2) years. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Can I ask you -- I know there's been 25 a few questions regarding this issue, but let me be
1651 perfectly clear, in 1995 what was your understanding of 2 what a -- what's been called a warrior was, given your 3 experience at Muncey Delaware and your experience at 4 Kettle Point police services. 5 What did you understand a warrior to be? 6 A: I understood a warrior to be someone 7 dressed up in camouflage gear. There's more or less two 8 (2) parts. You got the bad element, more or less, with 9 AK-47 like you heard some stories on TV in regards to 10 Akwasasne when they were having problems with the casinos 11 down there and there was so-called warriors shooting at 12 their own people along the ditches and stuff. 13 And then you got what they call the Mohawk 14 warriors to where it was a historical name to where they 15 were protectors of their communities. They're also 16 helpers to the Elders, a lot of good things like that. 17 Q: Now -- 18 A: So, I'm not sure, you know, when -- 19 when I read this book here, the name warrior here is I 20 think they're referring to people that are bad, that 21 society look at as being bad people. 22 Q: Well, I think -- 23 A: Lawbreakers or people that would use 24 military assault rifles to take the lives of other 25 people.
1661 Q: I think I can safely suggest to you 2 that in the course of this Inquiry, there has been 3 reference to the warrior in that term, and there's been 4 reference by all the First Nation witnesses that warrior 5 meant peacekeeper -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- in the traditional sense that 8 you've indicated to us. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: As Chief of Police with the Kettle 11 Point police services, have you ever heard automatic 12 gunfire before? 13 A: Within Kettle Point itself. 14 Q: Sure, and did that cause you any 15 concern when you hear something like that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. There's been discussion 18 or there's been questions related somebody hearing 19 something like automatic gunfire on September 5th. 20 Did you hear anything like that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Would that, in any event, 23 have caused you any concern if you'd heard that on Kettle 24 Point? 25 A: No.
1671 Q: It was something that you'd heard 2 fairly often, isn't it? 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, if I understand your evidence 8 correctly, you knew about the activity of moving into the 9 Park some weeks in advance, didn't you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, in fact, you knew a number of 12 the people in the Camp, because you'd gone to school with 13 them? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you were familiar with them and 16 you were on speaking arrangements with them? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: They were people you could go and you 19 could talk to at any time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You knew about the movement, it 22 didn't overly concern you? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And it didn't surprise you because 25 you knew that there had been a level of frustration in
1681 the community for years regarding these issues? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: When was the first time after you 7 heard that they'd gone into the Park that you went by the 8 Park? 9 A: The night they went in. 10 Q: Okay. And did you speak to anybody 11 when you went by? 12 A: I may have, I can't recall. 13 Q: Okay. But you did -- you do recall 14 going by at some point and seeing them there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, you'd indicated some past 17 experience with, and I think it's Inspector or Staff 18 Sergeant Carson? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is it fair to say that you and Carson 21 were not the greatest of friends? 22 A: No, not the greatest of friends. 23 Q: Right, in fact you'd had your moments 24 with Staff Sergeant Carson, at times, in the course of 25 your role as Chief of the Kettle Point police?
1691 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you'd seen him in charge of other 3 incidents in the -- in the days or months or years 4 leading up to 1995; is that fair? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. You knew that he was in charge 7 of the OPP in terms of dealing with this situation with 8 the Park? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No, you didn't know that at the time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right, when did you learn of 13 that? 14 A: I'm not sure. It might have been a 15 couple of years after the fact. 16 Q: Okay, so you didn't know at the time? 17 Nobody ever talked to you about it at the time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And Staff Sergeant Carson never 20 called you for your input on any of these matters? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You agree with me that given your 23 history at Muncey Delaware with Kettle Point Chief -- as 24 Chief of the Kettle Point police services and the fact 25 that you knew many of the people that were in the camp
1701 and the Park, you would have been a pretty good person to 2 speak to when they went into the Park; wouldn't you? 3 A: Yes, and I'd just like to add one 4 comment, if I -- if you'd let me in regards to Chief 5 Superintendent Coles. 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: Before he left after everything was 8 done and over with, he attended the Kettle Point office 9 and he came and sat in my office and he advised me that 10 he was -- he was about to retire. 11 And he says, you know, I have five 12 thousand (5,000) men under my command and I can have them 13 anywhere at any time. He says, I cannot understand, he 14 says, I'd like you to answer one question first, I can't 15 understand why -- why you people did the things that you 16 did for the OPP. 17 And what he's meaning by that, he said, 18 some people think you're crazy, some people ought to -- 19 want to give you guys a medal for putting yourself in 20 those situation to where you're unarmed as a police 21 officer. 22 You have a vehicle that's marked with 23 white flags. He says, I can't understand something like 24 that. 25 And I advised him, I told him, I says,
1711 most people here are -- are family and always have been. 2 I said, you know, they may quarrel and bicker and call 3 each other names and stuff like that, but... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Excuse me, and when one loses a 8 family member, native people all come together. And I 9 said that's just the way they are. 10 I said they have respect for life. I said 11 these are Oneida peacekeepers that came down, one of the 12 first things they told me and it was said in front of 13 some of the higher command in the Department of National 14 Defence in London on one particular meeting, that if you 15 come to the gate, you know, with your guns we're going to 16 be standing there, is what this Bruce Elijah told this 17 guy. 18 He says, we're going to be unarmed and you 19 can take my life first. He says, we don't need guns to 20 fight and we'll never use them. 21 And anyway, Coles went on to ask me, he 22 says, did you have family members in there? Do you have 23 brothers, or sons, daughters? I said no. Do you have an 24 interest in Stoney Point? I says, no, I don't. I said I 25 got enough land where I'm at, even though my grandmother
1721 was from there. 2 I says, it's just -- I said, We don't like 3 to see any people lose their life, especially over 4 something like this. 5 And he says, Well, I just want you tell 6 your men that we'll, you know, that he'd never forget 7 them for what they did. They did this on a volunteer 8 basis. He said, You guys were able to do what my five 9 thousand (5,000) member police force could never do. 10 Q: In fact, you would have done that on 11 a volunteer basis before Dudley was shot, wouldn't you, 12 if you'd been asked? 13 A: Yes. 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner, those are all my questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 Ms. Hensel...? 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. I have 20 no questions on -- on re-direct. 21 Thank you, Mr. Bressette, very much for 22 your assistance here today. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much, Mr. Bressette, for coming and giving us your 25 testimony. You're finished now. Thank you very much.
1731 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, that's - 4 - Mr. Bressette was our last witness for this week and so 5 we'll adjourn until Monday at 10:30 and Mr. Ron George 6 will be our first witness next week. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. Until Monday at 10:30. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 10 adjourned until Monday, February 28th at 10:30 a.m. 11 12 --- Upon adjourning at 1:05 p.m. 13 14 15 16 17 Certified Correct 18 19 20 21 22 ________________________ 23 Carol Geehan 24 25