11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 23rd, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 9 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 10 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 11 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 14 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 15 Jennifer McAleer ) 16 17 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 18 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 19 20 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 21 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 Mark Anthony Wright, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 11 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 318 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1108 Document Number 1002130. Statement 4 of M. Eve, Sept. 15/'95 and handwritten 5 notebook entries of Sgt. M. Eve, Sept 6 06/'95. 17 7 P-1109 "Stan" Thompson drawing, Sept. 20/95. 8 Marked by Witness Mr. Mark Wright, 9 February 23/'06. 25 10 P-1110 Transcript of Track number 1937(b) 11 19:37 hours. Sept. 06/'95. 36 12 P-1111 Transcript of Chatham Logger tape, 13 0146, track 12 , "2464", Spencer and 14 Weverink, LIMA 2, 19:39 hrs., 15 Sept 06/'95. 39 16 P-1112 Transcript of Dale Linton trying to 17 call Mark Wright's cellular phone, 18 then pages him, Command Post, Track 03, 19 19:49 hrs, Sept 06/'95. 41 20 P-1113 Transcript of Mark Wright and Sgt. 21 Cousineau, Region 09 Chatham 22 Communication Centre, Logger Tape 23 number 0146, track 12, disc 12 of 20, 24 19:50 hours, Sept. 06/'95. 46 25
91 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1114 Transcript of Mark Wright and unknown 4 OPP officer (Radio Call) Region 10, 5 Chatham Communication Centre Logger Tape 6 number 0146, track 12, disc 12 of 20, 7 19:51 hrs, Sept. 06/'95. 49 8 P-1115 Transcript of Mark Wright and Command 9 Post, Region 11, Chatham Communications 10 Centre Logger tape, number 0146, track 12, 11 disc 12 of 20, 19:54 hrs, Sept. 06/'95 55 12 P-1116 Transcript of Telephone Conversation, 13 Dale Linton paging John Carson, Mark 14 Wright heard in background, Command 15 Post, Track 3, 20:15 hours. Sept. 16 06/ '95. 117 17 P-1117 Transcript of Radio Transmission, LIMA 1 18 and Checkpoint Charlie (Poole) Chatham 19 Logger 0146, track 12, 20:15 hours, 20 Sept. 06/'95. 121 21 P-1118 Transcript of Radio Transmission LIMA 1 22 and Checkpoint Charlie (Zacher) Chatham 23 Logger 0146, track 12, 20:17 hours, 24 Sept. 06/'95. 124 25
101 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1119 Document Number 2000604. Pages 73 4 to 101, Cousineau to Tewksbury at 5 Command Centre, 22:59 hrs (Mark Wright 6 heard in background) Mobile Command 7 Unit. Logger tape number 4, track 2, 8 disc 2 of 3, Sept. 06/'95. 271 9 P-1120 Transcript of Mark Wright, Command 10 Centre, Dave Tewksbury , Region 18, 11 Chatham Communication Centre. Logger 12 tape number 0146, track 2, disc 2 of 20, 13 23:31 hrs. Sept. 06/'95 298 14 P-1121 Transcript of Mark Wright, Comm Centre 15 re. Threats to Officers, Region 20, 16 Chatham Communication Centre, Logger 17 tape number 0146, track 2, disc 2 of 20, 18 23:46 hrs, Sept. 06/'95. 315 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Good morning, everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 MARK ANTHONY WRIGHT, Resumed: 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Before we move on, Inspector Wright, 15 I wanted to ask you about -- take you back to being in 16 the Park, down by the Park with Margaret Eve? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And one of the things that I wanted 19 to ask you about was we -- actually we had -- I'd 20 referred and I'd asked that they be marked as an exhibit, 21 the handwritten notes of Marg Eve yesterday but we have - 22 - what should go with them actually is her statement and 23 it's Inquiry Document 1002130. 24 And the statement refers to, in a little 25 more detail, what was in her notes.
121 And I'm going to just read it to you -- 2 you should have a copy there, Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I do. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What are you 8 reading from now, the statement or the handwritten notes? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The statement. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And starting at page -- the second 14 page of the statement: 15 "At approximately -- I was briefed by 16 Sergeant Seltzer as to what my details 17 would be here at Forest. 18 And at approximately 2:30 in the 19 afternoon I attended the Provincial 20 Park with Detective Sergeant Mark 21 Wright and we requested to see if we 22 could have some kind of contact with 23 some of the Natives on the Park 24 property to find out if someone was in 25 control of the situation or in charge
131 of the situation. 2 Mark and I got there about 2:30 3 anyways." 4 Now, I think that you indicated -- the 5 scribe notes indicated you leave about three o'clock. So 6 that -- that her times are made. 7 Do you agree with her times? 8 A: Do I agree with whose times? 9 Q: Margaret Eves' times in the 10 statement? 11 A: I recall we got there around 3:00. 12 Q: Around 3:00, okay. 13 "We stood by the fence right by the 14 parking lot there, right by the beach 15 entrance and we saw there was probably 16 about six (6) to eight (8) youths there 17 and probably about eight (8) to ten 18 (10) adults that were sitting at picnic 19 tables close to the concession booth 20 there." 21 And the concession booth you referred to I 22 think yesterday, it's the -- it's the -- it was the Park 23 store? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: "When we got there the kid came to us
141 on an ATV and he just wanted to know 2 what we were doing there and telling us 3 to get off the property. He didn't 4 want to talk to anybody. 5 Mark indicated to him that we wanted to 6 speak to somebody that was in charge; 7 if he could go -- if he could go over 8 to the picnic table to see who was in 9 charge. The kid listened to us for a 10 while and then he went back to the 11 table and nobody came over. 12 There was some yelling back and forth 13 from the kids that were at the picnic 14 tables. There was flashing a mirror in 15 our eyes. 16 We stood there for a while, probably 17 forty-five (45) minutes anyways and 18 during that time a black Camaro came to 19 us probably about fifty (50) feet away. 20 We recognized the passenger as being 21 Dudley George just from my dealings 22 from the Ipperwash camping detail 23 because I had dealings with him then. 24 I recognized him as a passenger in the 25 vehicle and the driver, I think it was
151 George -- George. Anyways it was 2 either Glen George, it was a big, he 3 was big anyways. He did actually did 4 most of the talking. 5 He accused Mark Wright of being a liar 6 because of his dealings with the 7 Natives when they took over the Army 8 Camp. There were some other words 9 exchanged, you know, and I explained to 10 him -- them that we wanted to get this 11 resolved and you have to talk to us. 12 And Dudley George stated that this is 13 only going to be resolved with guns. 14 It was going to be settled with guns 15 and they just uh drove off spinning 16 their tires. 17 They went back to the picnic tables by 18 the concession booth where everybody 19 else was sitting. 20 And then that Glen George, who I 21 believed to be Glen George, came 22 walking back over to the picnic tables 23 where the kids were sitting and we 24 yelled over to them again, you know, to 25 come over and talk to us. But he
161 wanted nothing to do with us. 2 So like I said, we were there for about 3 forty-five (45) minutes then we left 4 again." 5 And does that assist with your 6 recollection? Was it Glen George? You knew Glen George. 7 It wasn't Glen George in the -- in the car? 8 A: I don't recall it being Glen George, 9 no. 10 Q: And do you -- do you recall -- did 11 you know -- had you met or known Roderick George or 12 otherwise known as Judas George? 13 A: Had I met -- I don't if I'd met him 14 but I -- I knew him to see him. He's a large man. 15 Q: And do you recall if it was Roderick 16 George in the -- 17 A: I don't recall that. 18 Q: And the issue of being a liar, do you 19 recall anything else that was said about that? 20 A: Well, I have -- my notes deal with -- 21 and I think Marg talks about, there's some more 22 conversation. 23 I recollect that they -- they were -- 24 they mentioned an individual by the name of Scott Ewert 25 who was the bailiff that I'd given evidence to earlier
171 and I suspect that's what they were eluding to . 2 Q: And you had given the evidence at the 3 hearing at the end of June in 1995? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And that's what you thought they were 6 eluding to? 7 A: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I'd ask 9 that the -- the whole package, the statement and the 10 notes be marked as the next exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1108, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1108: Document Number 1002130. 14 Statement of M. Eve, Sept. 15 15/'95 and handwritten 16 notebook entries of Sgt. M. 17 Eve, Sept 06/'95. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Now, when we left yesterday -- 21 A: Excuse me, sir. I just -- I don't 22 want to mislead the Commission, but I don't recall them 23 calling me a liar. So I suspect why they called me a 24 liar was in relation to the Ewert episode, not -- I 25 didn't make that because I -- I don't recall that
181 conversation taking place, that part of the conversation. 2 So I don't want it to appear that I now do remember that 3 part of it because I don't. 4 Q: Sure. And did you have anything to 5 do with the takeover of the built-up area of the Army 6 Base other than -- 7 A: No. No. 8 Q: So -- now, yesterday we -- when we 9 stopped you were at the Ministry of Natural Resources 10 parking lot and we listened to Exhibit P-1107 and that 11 was a transmission at 7:25: 12 "10-4, would you advise LIMA 1 that 13 everything is 10-4 here at LIMA 2 from 14 Acting Detective Sergeant -- Staff 15 Sergeant Wright." 16 And then: 17 "10-4..." 18 So can you tell us -- this was at 17:25. 19 What time, to your recollection, did you leave the MNR 20 parking lot? 21 A: Somewhere around that time, just 22 around that time. I -- 23 Q: And I think you said yesterday that 24 you had asked the -- someone in the -- the St. John's 25 trailer, at the Tactical Operations Centre to advise LIMA
191 1 that you were finished? 2 A: Right. I did. 3 Q: Now, can you tell us what you did 4 next please? 5 A: I'm just -- if I could just have a 6 moment. 7 I -- I left the -- the parking lot, the 8 MNR parking lot, and I turned right which would be east 9 on East Parkway. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And I came around the corner where 12 East Parkway turns into Army Camp Road. And my 13 recollection is that I -- I had made -- I was -- I was in 14 the -- the body of the curve of that road. 15 Q: When you say you were "in the body of 16 the curve of that road" behind you is a copy of Exhibit 17 P-21, and perhaps -- there's a laser pen there, perhaps 18 you could just mark -- just point, for the time being, 19 what you mean by "in the body of the -- of the curve". 20 A: Sure. I believe it was in and 21 around -- 22 Q: You have to -- there's a hand -- the 23 hand mic you'll have to use, Inspector Wright. 24 A: I -- I believe I was in and around 25 this area right in here.
201 Q: You speak -- you'll have to speak 2 into it just a little more. 3 A: Okay. I believe I was right in this 4 area right here, and my recollection is because I was 5 concerned that I'd stopped by vehicle there because of 6 what I saw and I was concerned that somebody might come 7 around the corner and hit my car. 8 Q: Yes. And so where did you move to? 9 Oh, you -- 10 A: I stayed right there. My car was 11 parked right there. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Stopped there. 14 Q: Perhaps what you could do is if you 15 could take a pen and mark on the -- the drawing on the 16 intersection, the corner there, where you stopped. There 17 should be a large -- yeah, a black marker there. Yes, 18 please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And could you put a "1" on that 23 please? And that "1" signifies the point in the -- the 24 corner where you stopped. Okay, could you -- 25 A: That's --
211 Q: -- carry on? 2 A: -- that would be approximately where 3 I stopped. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Obviously I -- I recall being 6 concerned about, again, my car wasn't visible to 7 eastbound traffic. 8 I don't know what's best to do here, sit down or 9 continue. 10 Q: Yeah. Why don't you sit down again, 11 please. 12 A: In any event I -- I came around the 13 corner and as I did I -- I saw a number of male First 14 Nations individuals on -- outside of the fence line and 15 they were as best as I can describe it in a -- in a 16 string, if you will, from the fence to the edge of the 17 sandy parking lot -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- where the sandy parking lot and 20 the roadway meet. And one (1) individual came to my 21 vehicle and I don't -- I don't know who that person was 22 and I don't know who any of those people were at the 23 time. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And I still don't know who those
221 people were. 2 Q: And what happened? 3 A: And I saw them with -- a number of 4 them had bats or axe handles, or something to that 5 effect, in their hand. My notes are -- and I'd like to 6 make the point, if I could, sir, that my notes from -- 7 from the time I went to the TOC to meet those people, 8 from that point -- for the rest of that evening, that -- 9 these notes don't take place, I don't put paper to pen 10 until the September the 7th, sometime in the afternoon, 11 late afternoon of September 7th. 12 So, be that as it may, that was my first 13 opportunity to -- to get to my notes because of what 14 we're about to get into. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: In any event, I saw about eight (8) 17 to ten (10) male -- my notes say I saw about eight (8) to 18 ten (10) male Natives standing on the edge of the roadway 19 and approximately four (4) of five (5) of these males 20 were holding clubs, sticks, axe, bat -- bats, something 21 to that effect. 22 I was an un -- I was in an unmarked police 23 car and I've alluded to this earlier that it's somewhat 24 more than an unmarked police car. You would not -- 25 Q: What did you mean by that?
231 A: Well, it was a -- I think it was 2 either a Monte Carlo or an Olds Cutlass, but it would 3 have had smoked mirrors and there's no antennas on it, 4 and if one were to look in, there's no police radio, it's 5 tucked underneath the seat. 6 So, it -- the last thing it would look 7 like would be a police car, plain or unmarked or anything 8 like that. 9 So, it's more akin to a surveillance 10 vehicle than it would be -- anything that would be 11 identified as a police car. 12 Q: And by "surveillance vehicle" the 13 purpose of a surveillance vehicle is that it is 14 unidentifiable as -- as a police car? 15 A: Absolutely. And I was in, as I 16 recall, jeans, blue jeans and a t-shirt with no -- no 17 identifying marking on it. I wasn't wearing that black 18 t-shirt with OPP marked across it or anything like that, 19 nor was I wearing a bulletproof vest. 20 In any event, an individual -- one of the 21 individuals came up close to the car. He wasn't right up 22 at the -- the door of the car, but he was close to the 23 car, and we had some conversation. I -- I asked him what 24 they were doing and he told me to leave, it wasn't my 25 problem and I would best get out of there.
241 I asked them if I could go where they were 2 into the parking lot of the Park and they said no, they 3 told me to leave, and as they were telling me to this, 4 they were tapping their clubs into their open palm. 5 Now, my notebook says "they" but I only 6 had conversation with one (1) individual. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And I don't recall how many of them 9 were tapping -- more than one (1) was doing that with the 10 bat or axe or whatever that happened to me. 11 But the one -- the individual I was 12 talking to was doing that as well. 13 Now the reason I asked him about this 14 particular -- the reason I had this conversation was 15 because I wanted to find out from him very quickly what 16 his intention was and it appeared to me that he was 17 taking control of the roadway and certainly the sandy 18 parking lot because that's why I asked him if I could -- 19 if I could go there. 20 I did that specifically to see what his 21 response was. 22 Q: Now, but when -- perhaps what you 23 could do is take the microphone and take the pencil and 24 then draw a -- and I would ask that we might just mark 25 this drawing as the next exhibit so we have an exhibit
251 number. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1109, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1109. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1109: "Stan" Thompson drawing, 6 Sept. 20/95. Marked by 7 Witness Mr. Mark Wright, 8 February 23/'06. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: So if you could go, Inspector Wright, 12 and take the marker and mark on the Exhibit P-1109 where 13 the individuals you observed were when you initially 14 stopped at the parking -- at the corner of East Parkway 15 and Army Camp Road. 16 A: Sure. And before I do that, I'd like 17 to make something clear here, is that this -- this 18 happened in -- it was very quick. 19 I mean I came around the corner, there was 20 individuals armed, I -- I certainly concerned about that, 21 we had a very quick conversation, I saw them walking 22 towards; I didn't spend a whole lot of time there. 23 So I'm uncomfortable with the exact 24 numbers. There were somewhere between eight (8) and ten 25 (10) of them. So for me to say exactly where they were
261 and how many there were is somewhat problematic. But I 2 can give a rough idea. 3 Q: Well, all I simply would like you to 4 do is to tell us to the best of your ability to -- where 5 they -- where the individuals were when you first saw 6 them and then where they were as this transaction, this 7 conversation went on. 8 How long were you there for? 9 A: I wasn't there a minute. 10 Q: Not even a minute? 11 A: Not even a minute. 12 Q: Okay. Okay. Would you first go to 13 Exhibit P-1109? 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: And you'll need to take the 16 microphone again, Inspector Wright. 17 A: Sure. They were -- the individuals 18 were -- I mean the -- the one person I spoke to was on 19 the roadway, so I'll put a "2" there? Do you want me to 20 do that? 21 Q: Yeah. You -- you spoke to him on the 22 roadway. 23 A: He was on the roadway. 24 Q: He was on the roadway when you -- 25 your came up?
271 A: I don't recall if he was on the 2 roadway when my car came up, but when I was talking to 3 him, he was on the roadway. 4 Q: Okay. But when you first observed 5 him, was he -- when you came around the corner, where 6 were the people that you observed in the sandy parking 7 lot; that's the first step I would like to know. 8 A: They were in a -- in a line or what I 9 would call a string, I guess, somewhere from here I guess 10 to -- up to the edge of the roadway in and along this 11 area. 12 Q: And there were eight (8) to ten (10) 13 people in a line. And could you mark number "2" on the - 14 - that line? 15 A: Sure. 16 Q: And the -- all of the individuals 17 were in the sandy parking lot? 18 A: Yes. Other than the first individual 19 who started -- who came off the parking lot onto the 20 roadway and talked to me. 21 Q: Okay. But when you initially arrived 22 at the intersection, all of the individuals were in the 23 sandy parking lot? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And then when you stopped, one (1)
281 individual came over to talk to you? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And -- and when that individual came 4 over to talk to you, can you mark with number "3" where 5 that individual stood approximately. So how -- 6 A: Approximately. 7 Q: -- how far away was he from your car? 8 A: He would -- three (3) to five (5) 9 metres maybe, no more. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Three (3) metres. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Then what did you do? 17 A: I noticed that another one of the 18 First Nations individuals coming my way, I recognized him 19 from the area, and I became concerned that he may 20 recognize me and so I felt it prudent to leave, so I did. 21 Q: And that was one of the individuals 22 who was in the -- sort of, the string, as you described, 23 it in the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then do you reco -- do you recall
291 the name of the person? Did you know who -- the name of 2 the person? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You simply recognized the person? 5 A: Yes. I recognized the face. Again, 6 I wasn't there very long and I was talking to the person 7 close to the car and I was looking past him as I was 8 talking to him to see what was going on. 9 So it was, you know, I was doing a -- I 10 was multitasking there I guess is what you could call it. 11 Q: And then what did you do next? 12 A: I went to the first checkpoint. The 13 first checkpoint as you go northbound on Army Camp Road. 14 Q: And if I could -- in a moment -- you 15 meant going southbound on -- 16 A: Sorry, yes. 17 Q: -- if -- just -- 18 A: That's what I meant, southbound. 19 Q: -- one moment, Commissioner. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: This is actually a copy of Exhibit -- 24 I had the number, I'll have to get the number, but it's a 25 copy of the checkpoints that as drawn by -- identified by
301 Inspector Carson when he gave his evidence. 2 And you will see on the -- the screen, 3 make it a little bigger, there's an area that showed 4 initially the checkpoint. And I apologize that it's a 5 little -- not as clear, but this is the -- just to orient 6 you, Lake Huron, East Parkway, Army Camp Road, the sandy 7 parking lot, leading down to Lake Huron. 8 When you came around the -- when you left 9 the MNR parking lot, did you pass through a checkpoint on 10 your way to the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 11 Parkway? 12 A: I believe I did. 13 Q: And do you recall where that 14 checkpoint was? 15 A: No. Somewhere on East Parkway. 16 Q: And that was as you were going east 17 on East Parkway after you left the MNR parking lot? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And initially, we understand that the 20 Checkpoint A had been close to the intersection of East 21 Parkway and Army Camp Road and then was moved back. 22 A: Yeah. Well, it wasn't anywhere near 23 me when I stopped and talked to those individuals. 24 Q: And Checkpoint C, can you tell us on 25 this -- do you recall today where Checkpoint C was
311 located when you stopped your car? 2 A: That looks about right. I thought it 3 was a little farther north, but that's about right. 4 Q: And when you say "that's about 5 right", where the spot is -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- here? And it may have been -- I 8 believe that we've heard some evidence that initially it 9 was -- was a little farther north, right by a trailer 10 park. And I think it's called -- I can't remember it's 11 name. I had it's name once, but -- 12 A: Silver Birch or -- 13 Q: Was there -- was it by the trailer 14 park when you stopped? 15 A: I don't recall. I just -- I thought 16 it was a little farther north. 17 Q: Than it is -- 18 A: On -- 19 Q: -- on this map? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And towards Matheson Drive? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: But it was near the first -- was it 24 the first set of -- the first trailer park as you go 25 south on Army Camp Road?
321 A: I believe so. 2 Q: And when you arrived at the 3 checkpoint can you tell us what happened? 4 A: I went to the checkpoint and I told 5 the ERT members what I just encountered and I told them 6 to be careful. I'm referring to my notes here as well, 7 Your Honour. 8 I told them to be careful and it looked to 9 me like things were escalating because of what I saw down 10 at the curve and I told them that I was going to tell the 11 other checkpoint and go to the Command Post as well and I 12 left. I didn't spend a whole lot of time there. 13 Q: And the other checkpoint that you're 14 referring to is where? 15 A: 21 Highway and Army Camp Road. 16 Q: Okay. And do you recall who you 17 spoke to at the checkpoint that you stopped at and I 18 believe that was Checkpoint C? 19 A: The -- the one at 21 Highway? 20 Q: No, the first one you -- 21 A: The first one. I recall Zacher and I 22 recall Constable Poole being there as well, specifically 23 Constable Poole. 24 Q: And how long did this -- 25 A: I wasn't there very long. I passed
331 on the information, I told them to be careful, and that - 2 - I left. 3 Q: And then what did you do? 4 A: I went to the next checkpoint to tell 5 them the same thing. 6 Q: And then what did you do? 7 A: By the time -- while I was talking to 8 those officers the -- the other checkpoint that was -- 9 that I had just left where Zacher and Poole were, Poole 10 were -- called on the radio and said that an individual 11 had shown up there and there was damage to his vehicle. 12 And -- and my recollection is that it was damage as a 13 result of stones. 14 Q: Okay. And...? 15 A: And I told -- I sent the message back 16 to that checkpoint that I wanted Constable Poole to take 17 the statement from that -- from him. 18 And the reason I picked Constable Poole 19 was because he was -- him and I worked together when I -- 20 when I was at Sombra detachment. He too was at Sombra 21 detachment. 22 And I knew Constable Poole to be diligent 23 in the taking of statements so he was somebody I knew and 24 I felt this was important and I wanted to make sure there 25 was some quality control in who was taking the statement.
341 Q: Okay. And when you were down at the 2 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road 3 could you observe the -- could you see north on the sandy 4 parking lot to the lake? 5 A: Yes, I -- I -- north. 6 Q: North. 7 A: North? 8 Q: North is towards the lake. 9 A: Yes. I guess I could, yes. 10 Q: But could you -- when you were there 11 did you -- could you see -- could you see the lake, do 12 you -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you -- so you were not in a 15 position to observe whether or not there was a cruiser at 16 the end of the -- the sandy parking lot down on the 17 beach? 18 A: No, I was not. 19 Q: And I'm going to play a -- 20 Commissioner, it's Item Number 3 in the group of material 21 of the extra transcripts that I provided you. 22 And this is a transmission that we're told 23 is at 19:37 on September the 6th and it's car number 2464 24 that is operated by Constable Spencer and Weverink, W-E- 25 V-E-R-I-N-K.
351 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 4 September 6, 1995 5 19:37 6 Track # 1937(b) 7 8 Lima Two, 2464. 9 10 2464 go ahead. 11 12 Are you aware we're still down at the beach area right 13 adjacent to the park there? 14 15 Ten four. 16 17 Yeah, we've got a gathering of males down here now, we're 18 a lone vehicle here **** advise can you get another 19 vehicle down here? 20 21 Ten four. You're Lima Two advises you can leave. What 22 kind of people are gathering there? 23 24 We've got four males gathering right down in this area 25 here.
361 10-4 you can leave. 2 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And did you hear this conversation 8 when you were there? 9 A: No. Not that I recall. 10 Q: And perhaps I would ask that this con 11 -- this transcript be marked the next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1110, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1110. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1110: Transcript of Track number 17 1937(b) 19:37 hours. Sept. 18 06/'95. 19 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then the next 21 transmission I'm going to play, Commissioner, is at 19:39 22 and it's again Spencer and Weverink in car 2464. And 23 it's the fourth... 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
371 Radio Transmission: 2 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 3 Date: 06 September 1995 4 Start Time: 19:39 hours 5 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 5 seconds 6 Conversation Involves: 7 '2464' - SPENCER and WEVERINK 8 9 Lima 2 10 2464: Lima two twenty four sixty four 11 12 2464: Lima two twenty four sixty four 13 14 Lima 2: six two twenty four sixty four go ahead 15 16 2464: just advise, leaving the beach ah, we came 17 up to ah where alpha checkpoint was, there 18 was four males outside on the Army Camp 19 Road, a few ah with bats go ahead 20 21 Lima 2: Yeah twenty four sixty four when you 22 speak, speak up and speak into the mike 23 and keep speaking up I caught the first 24 part then you drifted away 25
381 2464: It's got to be the comms, when we came up 2 past where checkpoint A was, there were 3 four males on the Army Camp Road, ah, four 4 Natives outside the Provincial Park go 5 ahead 6 7 Lima 2: Yeah ten four 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And from your knowledge of the area, 13 it would appear that these officers were parked down on 14 the beach and came up through the sandy parking lot onto 15 Army Camp Road? 16 A: Perhaps. 17 Q: Okay. And I would ask that we mark 18 this the next... 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1111, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1111: Transcript of Chatham Logger 22 tape, 0146, track 12 , 23 "2464", Spencer and Weverink, 24 LIMA 2, 19:39 hrs., Sept 25 06/'95.
391 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: There's a message at the start time 7 that indicated, it's 19:42, but I'm instructed it's 8 actually 19:49 and it's a Bill Linton trying to call Mark 9 Wright. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 Telephone Conversation: 14 Command Post - Track 3 15 Date: 06 September 1995 16 Start Time: 19:42 hours 17 Approximate Corrected Time: 19:49 hours 18 Duration of Conversation: 19 1 minute and 18 seconds 20 21 Conversation Involves: Dale Linton trying to call Mark 22 Wright's cellular telephone- then pages him 23 24 Automated Voice: You have reached the Cantel network, 25 the
401 customer you are calling is unavailable at 2 the moment, please try 3 4 Automated Voice: Thank you for calling McLean Hunter 5 paging, please leave a short message after 6 the tone 7 8 Linton: Mark would you call Dale Linton and the 9 command post right away, thanks. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And that was Dale Linton's voice on 15 the phone? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the -- I would ask that we mark 18 that the next exhibit, Commissioner. 19 A: P-1112, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1112: Transcript of Dale Linton 22 trying to call Mark Wright's 23 cellular phone, then pages 24 him, Command Post, Track 03, 25 19:49 hrs, Sept 06/'95.
411 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, just for 3 -- so you understand, many -- it's difficult with these 4 transmissions to speed through them when there are spots 5 that -- because there's no counter and so it's hard to 6 move from one speaking part to the next speaking part. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Then I would ask you to turn to Tab 10 33 of the second volume. It's a volume -- not the volume 11 with the scribe notes but the second volume. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I'll -- on P-1112, before we proceed, 16 we went through this in part in John Carson's but -- 17 testimony, but just to remind everyone, some of the 18 command -- the command post telephone calls, the time on 19 -- on the command post telephone log will show, in this 20 case, this is an example, it shows 19:42. 21 And the -- it will -- the corrected time, 22 there's a seven (7) minute -- a seven (7) minute 23 difference between the log time and the actual time of 24 the call. 25 And for some reason I'm -- it relates to,
421 I'm instructed, by Ms. Tuck-Jackson and Mr. Sandler, but 2 principally Ms. Tuck-Jackson that there was a -- it's -- 3 if necessary, we'll call evidence to explain this, but we 4 went through this with -- with Mr. Carson. 5 The -- there's a difference in time 6 between -- there's one (1) timer on the -- on the -- on 7 the phone log and there's a -- and then there's the 8 actual time and it's been identified as about a seven (7) 9 minute lag, although it doesn't always work that way. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's a 11 lag on the log. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's sometimes a 13 lag on the log. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: But -- and this pretty labourious but 17 we're trying to -- it's important and we're trying to 18 step -- go step by step through this and we'll try to 19 identify those as I go through. 20 Now, this is a call that -- a radio 21 transmission between you and Sergeant Cousineau, and 22 Sergeant Cousineau was -- what was his role on the 23 evening of September the 6th? 24 A: He was the Communication Centre 25 sergeant in the mobile command post.
431 Q: And was he the -- would he be the -- 2 referred to as LIMA 1? 3 A: No. I think LIMA 1 is the ERT 4 sergeant -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- leader. He's just the radio 7 operator. 8 Q: He's just the radio operator. 9 A: He's at, I think, that location is 10 referred to as LIMA 1 -- 11 Q: LIMA 1. 12 A: -- but that would be Korosec or 13 whoever was taking his spot. 14 Q: So that the actual LIMA 1 is the name 15 of the ERT centre, the ERT team leader -- 16 A: Right, that's an individual. 17 Q: An individual. But Mr. -- Sergeant 18 Korosec or the LIMA 1 and the communications sergeant, 19 Sergeant Cousineau, were in the same area in the command 20 trailer? 21 A: Yes, it just was easier to call LIMA 22 1 because that's where that -- he was located -- 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: -- in that command post. 25
441 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 Region 09 4 Mark Wright and Sgt. Cousineau 5 6 September 6, 1995 19:50 hrs 7 Chatham Communication Centre Logger Tape #0146 Track 12 8 Disc 12 of 20 9 10 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 11 [CP = Command Post] 12 [RC = Sergeant Robert "Bob" Cousineau] 13 14 15 MW: Command Post from Sergeant Wright. Command 16 Post from Sergeant Wright. 17 CP: Sergeant Wright go ahead. You.ve got 18 Command Post. 19 MW: Yeah, who.s sitting in the chair there? 20 CP: You.re all broke up there Mark. Try it 21 again. 22 MW: Whom I talking too? 23 RC: This is Sergeant Cousineau. 24 MW: Ten-four. You have a Duty C.O. on? 25 RC: Are you looking for Lima One?
451 MW: Is there an Inspector on board there? 2 RC: That.s 10-4. Inspector Linton.s here. 3 MW: What about Inspector Carson? 4 RC: Our instructions were to have you call him 5 on your - on his C-phone. 6 MW: Okay. Ten-four. I.m on my way back and my 7 C-phone.s U.S. 8 RC: Ten-four. And Inspector Linton would like 9 to speak with you also. 10 MW: And me with him! I.m on my way. 11 RC: Ten-four. I.ll pass the information on. 12 13 End of Conversation 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And that conversation was a 19 conversation between -- you were trying to get a hold of 20 -- who were you trying to get a hold of? 21 A: I was trying to get a hold of 22 Inspector Carson -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: -- in particular, but a -- a CO in 25 general.
461 Q: And what was the purpose of trying to 2 get a hold of them? 3 A: I wanted to report to them what -- 4 what had just taken place or was taking place at the 5 sandy parking lot, in and amongst that area, the -- the 6 individuals there and the damage to the vehicle. 7 Q: And perhaps I would ask that this be 8 marked the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1113, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1113: Transcript of Mark Wright and 12 Sgt. Cousineau, Region 09 13 Chatham Communication Centre, 14 Logger Tape number 0146, 15 track 12, disc 12 of 20, 16 19:50 hours, Sept. 06/'95. 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And what I'll do is at 19 the end of all this, Commissioner, we'll put all of these 20 calls on one (1) CD. We'll reserve a number for it and 21 then we'll put them together and it'll probably be next 22 time we're here we'll file the actual CD. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Then if you could turn to Tab 34.
471 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Excuse me, Commissioner. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: The next call I'm going to play is at 8 19:51 hours and the transcript that we've got in Tab 34 9 is -- only captures part of it. At the break I've got a 10 -- a better copy, a copy that captures all of it, and so 11 I'll obtain that at the break, Commissioner. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 14 15 Radio Transmission: 16 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 17 Date: 06 September 1995 18 Start Time: 19:51 hours 19 Duration of Transmission: 42 seconds 20 21 Conversation Involves: Mark Wright Officer 22 23 Wright: Go ahead right; I'm right here, Checkpoint 24 delta 25 Wright: Okay, ten four, somebody take him aside, I
481 think, I think you got ah, Sammy Poole 2 down there, take a quick statement from 3 him, and ah, I'm roaring back, just let me 4 get my ah sierra together here at the 5 command post, and ah, you know what I'm 6 after okay. Just stand-by alright 7 Officer: Ten four 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And you're at this point -- this 13 where you were at Checkpoint Delta at Highway 21 and Army 14 Camp Road? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And this is where -- what are you 17 doing in this transmission? 18 A: Well, this appears where I'm -- I've 19 got the information from the checkpoint closest -- 20 Q: Checkpoint C? 21 A: Yes, thank you. Checkpoint C that a 22 vehicles been damaged and -- by stones and they -- 23 they've got the person there. So that's where I'm 24 instructing them to get the statement. 25 So I know I just -- I've obviously erred
491 in my chronology here. This with respect to calling the 2 command post would have been wanting to talk to them 3 about the individuals on the roadway and not the damage 4 to the vehicle because I wouldn't have known that until 5 this time. Assuming these times are -- are correct, but 6 I -- I'm sure they are. 7 Q: It's 19:50 P -- you're referring to 8 P-1113 which is at 19:50 and although our note says 19:52 9 on this it may be 19:51. It's within a minute or two (2) 10 of the first -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- transmission. 13 A: Yes, right. 14 Q: And the -- the call is -- is either 15 at 19:51 or 19:52 and at the break if we could just 16 reserve a number for this call at Checkpoint D then we 17 will have it marked at the break. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This should 19 be 111 -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1114, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1114. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, I said a 23 call, it was a radio transmission. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1114: Transcript of Mark Wright and
501 unknown OPP officer (Radio 2 Call) Region 10, Chatham 3 Communication Centre Logger 4 Tape number 0146, track 12, 5 disc 12 of 20, 19:51 hrs, 6 Sept. 06/'95. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Then if you could turn please to Tab 10 35. And can you tell us just stepping back to your -- 11 the transmission that -- from Checkpoint D, what you 12 recall being told about the incident? 13 A: From Checkpoint C? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: That -- that a male, somebody take 16 him aside -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- had had his vehicle damaged and my 19 recollection is from stones, and that -- from the 20 individuals that I had just been speaking to on the 21 corner at the sandy parking lot, and to take a statement 22 from him in regards to that damage. 23 Q: And so it was your understanding it 24 was a male and you referred to him as "him" and that it 25 was from stones?
511 A: Right. 2 Q: And the -- 3 A: Stones, plural. 4 Q: Stone, you thought it was stones? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And we have marked as Exhibit P-474 7 that the notes of Constable Mark Zacher. And Constable 8 Zacher indicates that the -- they had notified Detective 9 Sergeant Wright of the damaged vehicle and his indication 10 was he advised us that his car was struck by a thrown 11 rock by a Native in the overflow parking area. And the - 12 - his indication in his statement at least was that it 13 was a rock. 14 And does that assist with your 15 recollection? 16 A: I -- I'm aware of that statement but 17 I know that I was of the under -- I was of the impression 18 it was stones. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I don't take issue with Zacher's 21 statement, I'm just saying that that's what the 22 impression I was under at the time. 23 Q: Then you leave Checkpoint D and you 24 head back to the command post in Forest? 25 A: That's right.
521 Q: And on the way to the command post in 2 Forest, you had another radio communication? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if I could take you to -- please 5 turn to Tab 34, I mean 35, and this is a radio 6 communication at 19:54 hours. 7 Oh, before I leave the last one, and I 8 apologize, Inspector Wright, for doing this, but you 9 asked Sammy Poole, take a quick statement from him and 10 you say: 11 "Just let me get my sierra together 12 here at the command post, and you know 13 what I'm after, okay?" 14 And what does that refer to, "sierra 15 together"? 16 A: What -- what I meant, rather 17 cryptically, was that I wanted to get to the command post 18 and -- and advise them what was going on, "and you know 19 what it is I'm after", in regards to content of the 20 statement. 21 And does sierra have some significance and 22 what does it mean, sierra? 23 A: Well, what -- what I meant it to mean 24 was it's -- it's from the phonetic alphabet as far as the 25 police language is concerned and --
531 Q: I see. 2 A: I find it rather embarrassing to go 3 into a whole lot of -- 4 Q: I think we -- 5 A: -- more detail. 6 Q: Yeah, okay. I think we understand. 7 Now, we'll go to 19:54, is a radio transmission. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 10 11 Radio Transmission: 12 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 13 Date: 06 September 1995 14 Start Time: 19:54 hours 15 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 7 seconds 16 Conversation Involves: Mark Wright 17 Bob Cousineau 18 19 Wright: Command post ah from Sergeant Wright, 20 command post from Sergeant Wright 21 Cousineau: Go ahead Sergeant Wright you got the 22 command post 23 Wright: Yeah we got about ah, up to eight 24 individuals, ah, at the picnic table area, 25 I assume you know what that is, and
541 they're just about on the edge of the 2 road. They got some bats and stuff in 3 their hands and apparently they've damaged 4 some ah, an individual's vehicle so we got 5 some mischief right now or willful damage. 6 And I talked to them for a while they 7 weren't sure who I was, and it appears to 8 me, it appears to me that they're ah up to 9 something so can you talk to ah your ERT 10 guy in there with the Inspector, I'm on my 11 way back and I'll give you a full rep when 12 I get back but I think we should be moving 13 ah, some people down that way, I think we 14 should be moving some people down that 15 way, I'm about ten away, ten minutes away 16 from the command post 17 Cousineau: That's ten four Lima one is standing right 18 by here heard it all and so did the 19 Inspector 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I'd ask 24 that this transcript be marked the next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1115, Your Honour.
551 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1115: Transcript of Mark Wright and 3 Command Post, Region 11, 4 Chatham Communications Centre 5 Logger tape, number 0146, 6 track 12, disc 12 of 20, 7 19:54 hrs, Sept. 06/'95 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And at this point, where are you to 11 the best of -- 12 A: I'm on -- I'm on 21 Highway on my way 13 to the command post at Forest Detachment. 14 Q: And the -- you indicate you're about 15 ten (10) minutes away? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And do you recall how long it took 18 you to get to the command post the evening of September 19 6th? 20 A: Something around that. I seem to 21 recall I was around Ravenswood when I made that call. 22 Q: And Ravenswood is the next 23 intersection, excuse me, west of -- of the intersection 24 of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 25 A: Right.
561 Q: And do you know who you were -- was - 2 - you were speaking to at the command post; do you 3 recognize that voice? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And then the -- you indicate: 6 "I think we should be moving some 7 people down that way. I think we 8 should be moving people -- some people 9 down that way." 10 What did you -- what did you mean by that? 11 A: I meant I felt we should be putting 12 some additional people down at that checkpoint, closest 13 to the area where those individuals were, beefing up that 14 -- supplementing those checkpoints, those two (2) inner 15 checkpoints. 16 Q: And the two (2) inner checkpoints you 17 are -- 18 A: Would be those -- the one -- the most 19 north -- the most northerly check post -- checkpoint on C 20 and A. 21 Q: C and A? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And A was on East Parkway and C was 24 at the trailer park on Army Camp Road? 25 A: Right.
571 Q: Okay. Yes? 2 A: That's what -- 3 Q: That's what you refer -- that's what 4 you meant? 5 A: That's what I meant, just -- yes, 6 that's what I meant. 7 Q: And when did you arrive back at the 8 Command Post? 9 A: I'd have to go to the scribe notes 10 because I think that's the best... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Somewhere around eight o'clock. The 15 handwritten scribe notes have it at 20:02. 16 Q: And by the handwritten scribe notes 17 you're referring to Exhibit P-427 page 474 and -- which 18 is at Tab 19 in the book in front of you? 19 A: I am. 20 Q: And if you go to your handwritten 21 notes they -- they say 19:55 I believe? 22 A: 19:55. Yes, they do. 23 Q: And that was -- was it 19:55 or 24 later? Why do you -- 25 A: Well, it would be somewhere between
581 19 -- you know in and around that -- that time period. 2 Q: And probably -- would you agree if 3 the call was at 19:54 and you were at Ravenswood it would 4 be closer to the... 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you got back to the Command 7 Post can you tell us what happened? 8 A: Well, before I got into the Command 9 Post I spoke to Sergeant Korosec. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: That's my best recollection that -- I 12 -- I know I had conversation with Korosec. And my best 13 recollection is I -- that conversation took place once I 14 got to Forest. And he had the day shift. There was 15 going to be the change of the ERT teams because it was 16 that time of day and I told him to hold back or hold onto 17 that shift. I didn't want him letting them go. 18 Q: And why didn't you want him to let 19 them go? 20 A: Well, because I was -- I was 21 cognizant that we had a potential problem down there. I 22 was very concerned about what was going on and I was 23 harkening back to exactly what in my mind what had taken 24 place around seven o'clock that very same day when we had 25 the people with the picnic tables out on the road.
591 And Inspector Carson held back the -- the 2 night shift ERT team so that we would have those 3 individuals available in order to deal with that 4 immediately. And that was what, I thought, was the best 5 thing to do is hold them back so that they would be handy 6 for the Incident Commander to do with whatever he felt 7 necessary in order to deal with that situation down at 8 the sandy parking lot as quickly as possible. 9 Q: Okay. And did anyone tell you at 10 this point in time or communicate to the Command Post 11 that Car 2464 had no problem when it was -- drove from 12 the beach to Army Camp Road near the checkpoint, the 13 area, Checkpoint A? 14 A: Nobody told me that, no. 15 Q: Now, Sergeant Korosec was in the -- 16 where was Sergeant Korosec when you arrived? In -- in 17 the garage? Outside the garage? 18 A: Yeah. That's -- my recollection he 19 was between the Command Post and the garage. 20 Q: And then what happened? 21 A: So he went and told the -- he -- he 22 went off to do that and I quickly went into the Command 23 Post to speak to Inspector Linton. 24 Q: And did anyone come out -- anyone 25 come into the Command Post at the same time?
601 A: Well, there were a number of people 2 in there but I don't really recall all the people. I 3 know at some point Korosec comes into the Command Post 4 and -- but I really can't recall who else was there. 5 Q: And what did -- 6 A: There was a scribe there. 7 Q: -- what did you tell Inspector 8 Linton? 9 A: My recollection is that I told him 10 that there -- about the individuals out on the roadway 11 and that them being -- a number of them being armed with 12 bats or axe handles or that sort of thing and that there 13 had been damage to -- damage to a vehicle and I also 14 alluded to him about that conversation in regards to not 15 being able to go to the beach when I talked to them. 16 Q: And then what happened? 17 A: Well, if you go to the handwritten 18 scribe notes, you'll see that Inspector Linton says to me 19 that he wants to take the B Team and the B Team with 20 helmets, I think it is. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yeah, the B Team with helmets and the 25 K-9.
611 Q: Okay, we'll just stop for a second. 2 You're referring to Exhibit P-427, page 474, Inquiry 3 Document 1000152, the entry at 2:02? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And this entry is of -- pardon me? I 6 meant 20:02, excuse me, 20:02. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page is 8 that on that handwritten scribe note? What page? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Page 474, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 474. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At 20:02. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And this note indicates, and the 16 companion note in the typewritten scribe notes for the 17 benefit -- your benefit, Commissioner, and My Friends is 18 that -- at page 73, Exhibit 426, Inquiry Document 19 1002419. 20 And it indicates: 21 "DL, Dale Linton, Mark Wright, Rob 22 Graham and Stan Korosec [and then] MW 23 reports Natives off Park area with 24 baseball bats. PC Zacher reports a 25 personal vehicle being damaged. DL,
621 let's take over B Team with helmets and 2 K-9." 3 Now, before we go on, the -- did the -- 4 the reference to PC Zacher reports a personal vehicle 5 being damaged. 6 Did you report that or was -- was that 7 based on your report that you'd been told by Zacher -- 8 Constable Zacher or was there an independent telephone 9 call -- a call in from Zacher? 10 A: I -- I don't know. But I don't know 11 if Zacher reported it independent of me, but I'm sure I 12 would have told Linton that there was a damage to a 13 vehicle, to a person's vehicle. 14 Q: And do you recall if you told Dale 15 Linton who told you? 16 A: Who -- no, I don't recall. 17 Q: And then in the handwritten scribe 18 notes, it -- and in the typewritten -- typed scribe note 19 there's a little different, but it's: 20 "Dale Linton, let's take over B Team 21 with helmets and K-9." 22 And what did you understand that to be? 23 A: I took that to mean that he was going 24 to take officers from checkpoint Bravo and -- and -- and 25 the canine and go down there and deal with those
631 individuals on the roadway, because if you look at 19:55 2 in the scribe notes, there's talk about sending a K-9 to 3 the beach area. 4 And I don't know if that -- that happened 5 or not, but that's my -- that's my understanding of what 6 he meant by that. 7 Q: Okay. And then what, if anything, 8 did you do? 9 A: Well, the -- the handwritten scribe 10 notes say: 11 "MW disagrees. Advise males to -- to 12 back off into the Park." 13 Q: And do you -- does that ass -- do you 14 have any independent recollection or has your 15 recollection been refreshed by this scribe note? 16 A: My recollection has been refreshed by 17 the scribe notes. 18 Q: And what did you mean by, "MW 19 disagree. Advised males to back off into Parks" or -- 20 A: Park. I just -- I just wanted him -- 21 I just wanted these individuals to be told, move back 22 into the Park with what I thought would be a significant 23 number of -- of officers or the officers there. 24 My main concern at that time was I frankly 25 didn't want to have a whole lot to do with this, because
641 I knew that the next morning I had to give evidence at 2 the injunction. 3 And the last thing I wanted to be doing 4 was having to deal with this. So I was really hoping we 5 could deal with this immediately so I can move onto the 6 matter at hand. 7 Q: And so it was -- do I understand what 8 -- from what you're saying, it was your position that the 9 people on the -- in the sandy parking lot should be 10 advised to go back into the Park? 11 A: Yeah, just told to go back into the 12 Park. 13 Q: Did anyone at this point raise an 14 issue of using a bullhorn or some other means of 15 communication to tell the -- 16 A: Un -- unfortunately no. 17 Q: And did -- did you think about a 18 bullhorn at that time? 19 A: No. No. 20 Q: Who was Rob Graham? 21 A: Rob Graham is -- is the 2IC of the 22 ERT team, second in command of the ERT team from what was 23 then Number One District. So he was Stan Korosec's 24 second in command. 25 Q: And he was a sergeant at the time?
651 A: Right. 2 Q: And then what happened? 3 A: Well then we went from that to 4 Inspector Linton telling me that he didn't want to do 5 that, he didn't want to do -- he didn't want to do 6 anything until he got the statement because short of the 7 individual who -- the victim of the offence down at the 8 sandy park -- at the roadway there, they -- those 9 individuals weren't doing anything wrong. 10 And eluded to in the telephone 11 conversation that I have with Carson immediately after 12 this. 13 Q: Were you present when Trevor 14 Richardson arrived? 15 A: I suspect -- yeah, sure I was. 16 Q: And Trevor Richardson, the note -- 17 both notes indicate: 18 "arrived in meeting reporting Brian 19 Byatt reports lots of activity in kiosk 20 area." 21 A: Right. 22 Q: They took the gas to fill the bus. 23 Then it says, Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson on 24 the telephone. 25 A: Right. A -- a telephone -- I was
661 talking to Linton, what has happened -- just happened, 2 what I've just spoken about, and the -- and the phone 3 rings and it's Inspector Carson looking for me. 4 So I -- I go from a conversation with 5 Linton, Inspector Linton, to the telephone call with 6 Inspector Carson. 7 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to Tab 8 36 in the book in front of you. For the benefit of My 9 Friends, this is Tab 44 -- it's Tab 48 and Exhibit 444B. 10 And before you went to speak to John 11 Carson, did anyone, in the meeting that you were at, led 12 by Dale Linton, talk about the TRU team before you went 13 to speak to John Carson? 14 A: I don't recall that -- that 15 happening. 16 Q: And the reference, B Team with 17 helmets, you told us that -- can you explain again what 18 you understood him to mean, B Team with helmets? 19 A: I understood that to mean the check - 20 - the people at Checkpoint Bravo, because they would be 21 ERT individuals and I don't know if they had all their 22 kit in that car. 23 But normally, ERT officers travel with 24 their entire kit with them in the vehicles. So if that 25 was an ERT vehicle then their kit would be in the trunk
671 which would include their helmets. 2 Q: And the helmets -- when -- when they 3 were formed up into a unit to -- to -- a Crowd Management 4 Unit or -- they use -- 5 A: For the -- yeah, that -- that would - 6 - sure, they would use that -- 7 Q: That's a kind of -- 8 A: -- that -- that's what that equipment 9 is used for, sure. 10 Q: And so you understood him to be 11 referring to the officers at Checkpoint B with their 12 helmets? 13 A: Yeah, but I -- I didn't -- I didn't 14 take that to mean a Crowd Management Unit. 15 Q: You just meant -- take some -- 16 A: I just -- those guys -- 17 Q: -- officers down there. 18 A: -- that were down there, to put their 19 helmets on with the K-9 and deal with that. 20 Q: And K-9 is a -- a dog? 21 A: Right, and an officer. 22 Q: And an officer with the dog? 23 A: Right. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
681 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 2 September 6, 1995 3 TIME: 19.58.39 hours 4 Track 1.wav 5 6 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 7 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here, how are you? 8 PETERMAN: Not too bad. 9 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 10 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 11 CARSON: Thank you 12 WRIGHT: Hi John. 13 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 14 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 15 here. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic 18 tables are... 19 CARSON: Right. 20 WRIGHT: I just I took care of the public for now, 21 but if we don't deal this we're back. 22 (background radio transmissions) 23 WRIGHT: They got about eight of them there with 24 baseball bats right on the road edge you 25 know.
691 CARSON: Well who are they? 2 WRIGHT: Well I don't know just a bunch of Natives 3 you know what I mean. 4 CARSON: Oh, oh I see oh they're out on the ah 5 road. 6 WRIGHT: Right just on the edge okay. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 WRIGHT: The school buses roaring around... 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 WRIGHT: And ah ah I told the two checkpoints and 11 ah I didn't get I got ah the one at the 12 top year twenty-one. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 WRIGHT: And Zack comes back and he says we just 15 got a vehicle it's been pelted with 16 mischief... oh hang on a sec, what? 17 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck 18 are looking like they're moving toward the 19 roadway now.) 20 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 21 like they're moving towards the road now, 22 so they're going to try and take that 23 position again, we got that house there... 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here
701 and Canine. 2 CARSON: Okay, just, just ah... 3 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 4 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 WRIGHT: Listen, Boss, I've got Linten here and 7 well if, if those people can identify the 8 guys who threw rocks, we can do something 9 but if they can't then they're not doing 10 anything wrong. 11 CARSON: Well if they if they're going out there 12 with baseball bats you got them for weapon 13 dangers. 14 WRIGHT: You got them for weapon dangers, you got 15 them for ah you got them for fucking 16 mischief to the road, you got them for 17 unlawful assembly, we got that house right 18 next door. The the br we got they got the 19 school bus there and the dump truck right 20 there moving moving towards the roadway. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 WRIGHT: So... 23 CARSON: Are they are they coming out of the park? 24 WRIGHT: I don't know yet...we got anymore are they 25 out?
711 Background: (I/A) info now.) 2 WRIGHT: We want to be...wha a sit rep on those 3 things the instant that they move out, I 4 want to know about it. 5 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 6 WRIGHT: And I got the whole day shift here with 7 Canine. 8 CARSON: Okay so what's Dale want to do then? 9 WRIGHT: Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, we'll be 10 here till fucking daylight figuring it out 11 and daylight's a wasting. 12 CARSON: Okay well you let me know if you want me 13 to come back. 14 WRIGHT: Well don't you want to be briefed about 15 the citizens? 16 CARSON: Well I do but ah... 17 WRIGHT: Let him run it. 18 CARSON: We got, to get, we got to get together and 19 talk about your meeting tomorrow morning. 20 WRIGHT: Yeah okay well where are you? 21 CARSON: Well I'm having dinner right now. 22 WRIGHT: Where at ah... 23 CARSON: I'm in town here. 24 WRIGHT: For at Forest/ 25 CARSON: Yeah at ah at a residence.
721 WRIGHT: Okay well...what if he asked me what did 2 you say what do you want me to tell him? 3 CARSON: Well it's it's not my (I/A) 4 WRIGHT: Don't you say we go get those fucking 5 guys? 6 CARSON: Well we got to deal with them we can't let 7 them out in that area with that stuff. 8 WRIGHT: No. 9 CARSON: So if he wants I'll come back...but he's 10 got to make that call for me to come back. 11 WRIGHT: Okay. 12 CARSON: That's his problem. 13 WRIGHT: Alright. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 WRIGHT: Okay. 16 CARSON: But if not ah I'll meet you over at the 17 motel here in a while... 18 WRIGHT: I'll see you there. 19 CARSON: Ah... 20 WRIGHT: Is that what you said, you were broken a 21 bit. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 WRIGHT: Yeah. 24 CARSON: How about quarter to nine. 25 WRIGHT: Pardon me?
731 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 2 WRIGHT: Ah if I'm out of here. 3 CARSON: Okay well you call me if not okay, I'm on 4 I'm on my cell phone. 5 WRIGHT: Okay and that give it to me again John 6 your cell phone. 7 CARSON: Ah 671... 8 WRIGHT: Yeah. 9 CARSON: 6086. 10 WRIGHT: 6086. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 WRIGHT: He's calling out TRU...(loud humming 13 noise) 14 CARSON: What? 15 WRIGHT: Okay so I'll call you ah at what time if 16 I'm not there? 17 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 18 WRIGHT: Okay. 19 CARSON: If if if he if he's calling out TRU... 20 WRIGHT: Yeah. 21 CARSON: You advise him I should be notified. 22 WRIGHT: Okay. 23 CARSON: Okay? 24 WRIGHT: Will do. 25 CARSON: Alright.
741 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 2 End of Conversation 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, on page 7 -- the second last page of the transcript, and I'm not 8 certain if on Exhibit 444B we've corrected this, but it 9 should be corrected. On page 312, where Inspector Wright 10 says he's calling out TRU, you can hear Inspector Carson 11 say: 12 "What?" 13 And then it goes back to: 14 "Okay. So I'll call you at that time." 15 And we should insert that into Exhibit P- 16 444A (sic). 17 And as well, P-444A (sic), I think has 18 already been corrected to indicate on page 309 that in 19 the middle where it says: 20 "Wright. We want to be -- want a 21 sit..." 22 And there -- it's in audible but we've 23 identified it before, "Rep" R-E-P. 24 And then in the last entry of Mr. Wright 25 on that page, Daylight's a wasting. It says, Daylight's
751 a waste then, but it should be, we identified this 2 before, Daylight's a wasting. 3 And that -- you would agree with that? 4 A: I would. 5 Q: Now, this call is identified in the 6 transcript as being at 19:58 but -- and I think we went 7 through this with Inspector Carson, here one has to add 8 seven (7) minutes, Commissioner, so it's really at 9 approximately 2:05 and its... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll be as bad as the 14 logger tapes by the time we're finished. It should be 15 20:05. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 20:05. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And the call is approximately three 20 (3) minutes and forty-seven (47) seconds long. 21 Now, when you refer to the school bus 22 roaring around on page 307, what was the source of that 23 information? 24 A: From what I recall from the -- from 25 listening to that is it's the information from the -- the
761 checkpoints, radioing that in to the command post, 2 because I'm -- it's Zacher and he's at checkpoint, I 3 think it's CHARLIE, Checkpoint C. 4 Q: We come to a separate reference to 5 that on the next page, but had you received any reports 6 about the school bus prior to speaking to Zach -- to 7 Inspector Carson? 8 A: No, not -- not to my recollection. 9 Q: But during the call we have a number 10 of things that don't show up on this because they're in 11 the background, but you were -- someone -- you heard 12 about a school -- the school bus? 13 A: Yes, because my concern was greater 14 now than it had been moments before. 15 Q: And then you report: 16 "And Zach comes back and he says, We 17 just got a vehicle, it's been pelted 18 with mischief. Oh, hang on a sec, what 19 [background] okay the school bus and 20 the dump truck are looking like they're 21 moving towards the roadway now." 22 And then you report: 23 "The school bus and dump truck look 24 like they're moving towards the road 25 now, so they're going to try and take
771 that position again. We got that house 2 there." 3 Now, the reference at the top of the page: 4 "And Zach comes back and he says we 5 just got a vehicle, it's been pelted 6 with mischief." 7 What's that refer to? 8 A: That's -- that's in reference to the 9 vehicle that had been hit with what I thought was stones 10 at the time. And it's a rather poor description on my 11 part to Carson, but it -- if you listen to the tape, 12 there's a pause there and I'm about to start to go over 13 and explain that again to him, but things start to happen 14 and I never get back to that. 15 Q: And -- but mischief refers to the 16 cars being -- the car being hit by the stones? 17 A: In my mind, yeah. 18 Q: And then you indicate: 19 "The school bus and dump truck look 20 like they're moving towards the road 21 now, so they're going to try and take 22 that position again. We got that house 23 there." 24 And what house were you referring to? 25 A: I'm referring to the house -- the
781 first house/cottage that would be west of the sandy 2 parking lot area on East Parkway. 3 Q: And at the time in 1995, there was a 4 large white -- well, there was -- there is a large, white 5 house immediately adjacent to the sandy parking lot 6 today. 7 Was that house there in 1995? 8 A: I drove down there before I came to 9 this Inquiry earlier in the week and I -- I -- I've been 10 down there before, but I never really paid attention to 11 those houses and my recollection it was a different 12 house, but it's been ten (10) years so -- 13 Q: But -- but it was the house in the 14 same or immediately -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- to the west of the sandy parking 17 lot? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then you indicate: 20 "If those guys can identify the guys 21 who threw rocks, we can do something; 22 if we can't, then they're not doing 23 anything wrong." 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And so I take it without someone to
791 identify who threw the rock or rocks, as you understood 2 it, then the -- they weren't doing anything wrong from 3 your perspective, the people in the sandy parking lot? 4 A: No. I disagree with you. 5 Q: Okay. What -- 6 A: This isn't -- 7 Q: I'm just asking what -- 8 A: Yeah, this -- it doesn't look like 9 this transcript, at first blow, is exactly what we heard 10 there, is -- that's my recollection of Linton, I'm trying 11 to portray to... 12 Q: You would refer -- you will recall a 13 reference to Linton? 14 A: Yeah. My recollection is I'm trying 15 to tell Inspector Carson that that's Linton's position is 16 that, you know, short of this individual being able to 17 identify these people who have committed criminal 18 offences, they're not doing anything wrong. 19 And I'm -- you can tell by the tone of my 20 voice that I'm very, very frustrated. 21 Q: Okay. And Commissioner, I'm going to 22 suggest My Friend, Mr. Falconer, made a good suggestion 23 that -- to play this again. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
801 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 2 September 6, 1995 3 TIME: 19.58.39 hours 4 Track 1.wav 5 6 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 7 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here, how are you? 8 PETERMAN: Not too bad. 9 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 10 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 11 CARSON: Thank you 12 WRIGHT: Hi John. 13 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 14 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 15 here. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic 18 tables are... 19 CARSON: Right. 20 WRIGHT: I just I took care of the public for now, 21 but if we don't deal this we're (I/A) 22 (background radio transmissions) 23 WRIGHT: They got about eight of them there with 24 baseball bats right on the road edge you 25 know.
811 CARSON: Well who are they? 2 WRIGHT: Well I don't know just a bunch of Natives 3 you know what I mean. 4 CARSON: Oh, oh I see oh they're out on the ah 5 road. 6 WRIGHT: Right just on the edge okay. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 WRIGHT: The school buses roaring around... 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 WRIGHT: And ah ah I told the two checkpoints and 11 ah I didn't get I got ah the one at the 12 top year twenty-one. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 WRIGHT: And and Zack comes back and he says we 15 just got a vehicle it's been pelted with 16 mischief... oh hang on a sec, what? 17 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck 18 are looking like they're moving toward the 19 roadway now.) 20 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 21 like they're moving towards the road now, 22 so they're going to try and take that 23 position again, we got that house there... 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here
821 and Canine. 2 CARSON: Okay, just just ah... 3 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 4 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 WRIGHT: I got listen here well if if those people 7 can identify the guys who threw rocks, we 8 can do something but if they can't then 9 they're not doing anything wrong. 10 CARSON: Well if they if they're going out there 11 with baseball bats you got them for weapon 12 dangers. 13 WRIGHT: You got them for weapon dangers, you got 14 them for ah you got them for fucking 15 mischief to the road, you got them for 16 unlawful assembly, we got that house right 17 next door. The the br we got they got the 18 school bus there and the dump truck right 19 there moving moving towards the roadway. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 WRIGHT: So... 22 CARSON: Are they are they coming out of the park? 23 WRIGHT: I don't know yet...we got anymore are they 24 out? 25 Background: (I/A) info now.)
831 WRIGHT: We want to be...wha a sit (I/A) on those 2 things the instant that they move out, I 3 want to know about it. 4 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 5 WRIGHT: And I got the whole day shift here with 6 Canine. 7 CARSON: Okay so what's Dale want to do then? 8 WRIGHT: Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, I'll be here 9 till fucking daylight figuring it out and 10 daylight's a waste then. 11 CARSON: Okay well you let me know if you want me 12 to come back. 13 WRIGHT: Well don't you want to be briefed about 14 the citizens? 15 CARSON: Well I do but ah... 16 WRIGHT: Let him run it. 17 CARSON: We got, to get, we got to get together and 18 talk about your meeting tomorrow morning. 19 WRIGHT: Yeah okay well where are you? 20 CARSON: Well I'm having dinner right now. 21 WRIGHT: Where at ah... 22 CARSON: I'm in town here. 23 WRIGHT: For at Forest/ 24 CARSON: Yeah at ah at a residence. 25 WRIGHT: Okay well...what if he asked me what did
841 you say what do you want me to tell him? 2 CARSON: Well it's it's not my (I/A) 3 WRIGHT: Don't you say we go get those fucking 4 guys? 5 CARSON: Well we got to deal with them we can't let 6 them out in that area with that stuff. 7 WRIGHT: No. 8 CARSON: So if he wants I'll come back...but he's 9 got to make that call for me to come back. 10 WRIGHT: Okay. 11 CARSON: That's his problem. 12 WRIGHT: Alright. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 WRIGHT: Okay. 15 CARSON: But if not ah I'll meet you over at the 16 motel here in a while... 17 WRIGHT: I'll see you there. 18 CARSON: Ah... 19 WRIGHT: Is that what you said, you were broken a 20 bit. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 WRIGHT: Yeah. 23 CARSON: How about quarter to nine. 24 WRIGHT: Pardon me? 25 CARSON: Quarter to nine.
851 WRIGHT: Ah if I'm out of here. 2 CARSON: Okay well you call me if not okay, I'm on 3 I'm on my cell phone. 4 WRIGHT: Okay and that give it to me again John 5 your cell phone. 6 CARSON: Ah 671... 7 WRIGHT: Yeah. 8 CARSON: 6086. 9 WRIGHT: 6086. 10 CARSON: Yeah. 11 WRIGHT: He's calling out TRU...(loud humming 12 noise) okay so I'll call you ah at what 13 time if I'm not there? 14 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 15 WRIGHT: Okay. 16 CARSON: If if if he if he's calling out TRU... 17 WRIGHT: Yeah. 18 CARSON: You advise him I should be notified. 19 WRIGHT: Okay. 20 CARSON: Okay? 21 WRIGHT: Will do. 22 CARSON: Alright. 23 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 24 End of Conversation 25
861 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: I'm going to go back because you can 5 hear, Listen, Boss, I've got..." 6 And it says, Listen, but I think it should 7 be, Linton. 8 A: Here. 9 Q: "...Linton here." 10 A: I would agree. 11 Q: And we'll just push that back. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 14 15 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 16 September 6, 1995 17 TIME: 19.58.39 hours 18 Track 1.wav 19 20 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 21 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here, how are you? 22 PETERMAN: Not too bad. 23 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 24 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 25 CARSON: Thank you
871 WRIGHT: Hi John. 2 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 3 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 4 here. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic 7 tables are... 8 CARSON: Right. 9 WRIGHT: I just I took care of the public for now, 10 but if we don't deal this we're (I/A) 11 (background radio transmissions) 12 WRIGHT: They got about eight of them there with 13 baseball bats right on the road edge you 14 know. 15 CARSON: Well who are they? 16 WRIGHT: Well I don't know just a bunch of Natives 17 you know what I mean. 18 CARSON: Oh, oh I see oh they're out on the ah 19 road. 20 WRIGHT: Right just on the edge okay. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 WRIGHT: The school buses roaring around... 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 WRIGHT: And ah ah I told the two checkpoints and 25 ah I didn't get I got ah the one at the
881 top year twenty-one. 2 CARSON: Yeah. 3 WRIGHT: And and Zack comes back and he says we 4 just got a vehicle it's been pelted with 5 mischief... oh hang on a sec, what? 6 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck 7 are looking like they're moving toward the 8 roadway now.) 9 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 10 like they're moving towards the road now, 11 so they're going to try and take that 12 position again, we got that house there... 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here 15 and Canine. 16 CARSON: Okay, just just ah... 17 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 18 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 19 CARSON: Yeah. 20 WRIGHT: I got listen here well if if those people 21 can identify the guys who threw rocks, we 22 can do something but if they can't then 23 they're not doing anything wrong. 24 CARSON: Well if they if they're going out there 25 with baseball bats you got them for weapon
891 dangers. 2 WRIGHT: You got them for weapon dangers, you got 3 them for ah you got them for fucking 4 mischief to the road, you got them for 5 unlawful assembly, we got that house right 6 next door. The the br we got they got the 7 school bus there and the dump truck right 8 there moving moving towards the roadway. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 WRIGHT: So... 11 CARSON: Are they are they coming out of the park? 12 WRIGHT: I don't know yet...we got anymore are they 13 out? 14 Background: (I/A) info now.) 15 WRIGHT: We want to be...wha a sit (I/A) on those 16 things the instant that they move out, I 17 want to know about it. 18 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 19 WRIGHT: And I got the whole day shift here with 20 Canine. 21 CARSON: Okay so what's Dale want to do then? 22 WRIGHT: Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, I'll be here 23 till fucking daylight figuring it out and 24 daylight's a waste then. 25 CARSON: Okay well you let me know if you want me
901 to come back. 2 WRIGHT: Well don't you want to be briefed about 3 the citizens? 4 CARSON: Well I do but ah... 5 WRIGHT: Let him run it. 6 CARSON: We got, to get, we got to get together and 7 talk about your meeting tomorrow morning. 8 WRIGHT: Yeah okay well where are you? 9 CARSON: Well I'm having dinner right now. 10 WRIGHT: Where at ah... 11 CARSON: I'm in town here. 12 WRIGHT: For at Forest/ 13 CARSON: Yeah at ah at a residence. 14 WRIGHT: Okay well...what if he asked me what did 15 you say what do you want me to tell him? 16 CARSON: Well it's it's not my (I/A) 17 WRIGHT: Don't you say we go get those fucking 18 guys? 19 CARSON: Well we got to deal with them we can't let 20 them out in that area with that stuff. 21 WRIGHT: No. 22 CARSON: So if he wants I'll come back...but he's 23 got to make that call for me to come back. 24 WRIGHT: Okay. 25 CARSON: That's his problem.
911 WRIGHT: Alright. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 WRIGHT: Okay. 4 CARSON: But if not ah I'll meet you over at the 5 motel here in a while... 6 WRIGHT: I'll see you there. 7 CARSON: Ah... 8 WRIGHT: Is that what you said, you were broken a 9 bit. 10 CARSON: Yeah. 11 WRIGHT: Yeah. 12 CARSON: How about quarter to nine. 13 WRIGHT: Pardon me? 14 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 15 WRIGHT: Ah if I'm out of here. 16 CARSON: Okay well you call me if not okay, I'm on 17 I'm on my cell phone. 18 WRIGHT: Okay and that give it to me again John 19 your cell phone. 20 CARSON: Ah 671... 21 WRIGHT: Yeah. 22 CARSON: 6086. 23 WRIGHT: 6086. 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 WRIGHT: He's calling out TRU...(loud humming
921 noise) okay so I'll call you ah at what 2 time if I'm not there? 3 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 4 WRIGHT: Okay. 5 CARSON: If if if he if he's calling out TRU... 6 WRIGHT: Yeah. 7 CARSON: You advise him I should be notified. 8 WRIGHT: Okay. 9 CARSON: Okay? 10 WRIGHT: Will do. 11 CARSON: Alright. 12 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 13 End of Conversation 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: So it should read, "Listen, Boss," 19 and I would like this corrected on the exhibit copy and 20 in the transcript when it's -- when it's inserted into 21 the -- into the transcript. "Listen, Boss, I've got 22 Linton here..." 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 25
931 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 2 September 6, 1995 3 TIME: 19.58.39 hours 4 Track 1.wav 5 6 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 7 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here, how are you? 8 PETERMAN: Not too bad. 9 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 10 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 11 CARSON: Thank you 12 WRIGHT: Hi John. 13 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 14 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 15 here. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic 18 tables are... 19 CARSON: Right. 20 WRIGHT: I just I took care of the public for now, 21 but if we don't deal this we're (I/A) 22 (background radio transmissions) 23 WRIGHT: They got about eight of them there with 24 baseball bats right on the road edge you 25 know.
941 CARSON: Well who are they? 2 WRIGHT: Well I don't know just a bunch of Natives 3 you know what I mean. 4 CARSON: Oh, oh I see oh they're out on the ah 5 road. 6 WRIGHT: Right just on the edge okay. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 WRIGHT: The school buses roaring around... 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 WRIGHT: And ah ah I told the two checkpoints and 11 ah I didn't get I got ah the one at the 12 top year twenty-one. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 WRIGHT: And and Zack comes back and he says we 15 just got a vehicle it's been pelted with 16 mischief... oh hang on a sec, what? 17 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck 18 are looking like they're moving toward the 19 roadway now.) 20 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 21 like they're moving towards the road now, 22 so they're going to try and take that 23 position again, we got that house there... 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here
951 and Canine. 2 CARSON: Okay, just just ah... 3 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 4 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 WRIGHT: I got listen here well if if those people 7 can identify the guys who threw rocks, we 8 can do something but if they can't then 9 they're not doing anything wrong. 10 CARSON: Well if they if they're going out there 11 with baseball bats you got them for weapon 12 dangers. 13 WRIGHT: You got them for weapon dangers, you got 14 them for ah you got them for fucking 15 mischief to the road, you got them for 16 unlawful assembly, we got that house right 17 next door. The the br we got they got the 18 school bus there and the dump truck right 19 there moving moving towards the roadway. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 WRIGHT: So... 22 CARSON: Are they are they coming out of the park? 23 WRIGHT: I don't know yet...we got anymore are they 24 out? 25 Background: (I/A) info now.)
961 WRIGHT: We want to be...wha a sit (I/A) on those 2 things the instant that they move out, I 3 want to know about it. 4 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 5 WRIGHT: And I got the whole day shift here with 6 Canine. 7 CARSON: Okay so what's Dale want to do then? 8 WRIGHT: Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, I'll be here 9 till fucking daylight figuring it out and 10 daylight's a waste then. 11 CARSON: Okay well you let me know if you want me 12 to come back. 13 WRIGHT: Well don't you want to be briefed about 14 the citizens? 15 CARSON: Well I do but ah... 16 WRIGHT: Let him run it. 17 CARSON: We got, to get, we got to get together and 18 talk about your meeting tomorrow morning. 19 WRIGHT: Yeah okay well where are you? 20 CARSON: Well I'm having dinner right now. 21 WRIGHT: Where at ah... 22 CARSON: I'm in town here. 23 WRIGHT: For at Forest/ 24 CARSON: Yeah at ah at a residence. 25 WRIGHT: Okay well...what if he asked me what did
971 you say what do you want me to tell him? 2 CARSON: Well it's it's not my (I/A) 3 WRIGHT: Don't you say we go get those fucking 4 guys? 5 CARSON: Well we got to deal with them we can't let 6 them out in that area with that stuff. 7 WRIGHT: No. 8 CARSON: So if he wants I'll come back...but he's 9 got to make that call for me to come back. 10 WRIGHT: Okay. 11 CARSON: That's his problem. 12 WRIGHT: Alright. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 WRIGHT: Okay. 15 CARSON: But if not ah I'll meet you over at the 16 motel here in a while... 17 WRIGHT: I'll see you there. 18 CARSON: Ah... 19 WRIGHT: Is that what you said, you were broken a 20 bit. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 WRIGHT: Yeah. 23 CARSON: How about quarter to nine. 24 WRIGHT: Pardon me? 25 CARSON: Quarter to nine.
981 WRIGHT: Ah if I'm out of here. 2 CARSON: Okay well you call me if not okay, I'm on 3 I'm on my cell phone. 4 WRIGHT: Okay and that give it to me again John 5 your cell phone. 6 CARSON: Ah 671... 7 WRIGHT: Yeah. 8 CARSON: 6086. 9 WRIGHT: 6086. 10 CARSON: Yeah. 11 WRIGHT: He's calling out TRU...(loud humming 12 noise) okay so I'll call you ah at what 13 time if I'm not there? 14 CARSON: Quarter to nine. 15 WRIGHT: Okay. 16 CARSON: If if if he if he's calling out TRU... 17 WRIGHT: Yeah. 18 CARSON: You advise him I should be notified. 19 WRIGHT: Okay. 20 CARSON: Okay? 21 WRIGHT: Will do. 22 CARSON: Alright. 23 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 24 End of Conversation 25
991 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: If we go back to page 307, the top of 5 the page where it says: 6 "WRIGHT: I just -- I took care of the 7 public for now but if you don't deal 8 with them -- this were..." 9 And I believe it says, "gone" in -- on the 10 transcript? 11 Then if you look on page 308 we've got: 12 "Listen, Boss, I've got Linton here." 13 And did you identify anything else in that 14 portion that I've missed? 15 A: I -- I don't think it was "gone" I 16 think it was "going" and then it played out. I don't 17 think I finished my thought there. 18 Q: Well, we can -- I'll just play that 19 in a second again. But then -- and I just want to make 20 sure that everyone understands at page 309 we've already 21 corrected I believe the entry -- the -- the "waffle" 22 entry where it says, "I'll". It should be, "We'll be 23 here" and not just "I'll". It -- on the transcript it's 24 "we'll". 25 I'm just going to play the introductory
1001 part just so we can identify what... 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 4 5 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 6 September 6, 1995 7 TIME: 19.58.39 hours 8 Track 1.wav 9 10 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 11 CARSON: Hi it's John CARSON here, how are you? 12 PETERMAN: Not too bad. 13 CARSON: Is Mark WRIGHT there? 14 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on a minute okay? 15 CARSON: Thank you 16 WRIGHT: Hi John. 17 CARSON: Hi how are you doing? 18 WRIGHT: Well not bad, we got a bit of a situation 19 here. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 WRIGHT: Right at the curve there where the picnic 22 tables are... 23 CARSON: Right. 24 WRIGHT: I just I took care of the public for now, 25 but if we don't deal this we're (I/A)
1011 (background radio transmissions) 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: It appears to be "gone". 7 A: No. It's -- I -- I disagree. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I think it's: 10 "I just -- I -- I just -- I took care 11 of the public for now. If we don't 12 deal with this we're back." 13 Q: We're back? 14 A: It's we're back. 15 Q: And -- okay. What did you mean by 16 that? 17 A: I meant that if we don't deal with 18 this the -- I just dealt with the citizenry at the TOC 19 and that I had dealt with that situation. I dealt with 20 the public and soothed their concerns so that they left. 21 But if we don't deal with the sit -- this 22 situation that we have, that is those people out there, 23 that were back, and that what I meant was my concern is 24 that the cottagers would come back and we'd have that 25 problem with the cottagers potentially moving upon the
1021 First Nations people out in that area or towards the 2 Park. 3 Q: Okay. And... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: It -- my main concern here was public 8 safety that there was -- and public order that this -- 9 there was a lack thereof, because of what was going on 10 and we needed to deal with this immediately. 11 Q: So you were -- from what you -- do I 12 take it from what you've said that you were concerned 13 about the -- the cottagers, the people who had been in 14 the Ministry of the Natural Resources parking lot -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- as well as the people who were on 17 the sandy parking lot? 18 A: Yes. In -- in my -- my position at 19 this time was that we had -- we were dealing with a land 20 claim issue. But now we were dealing with a -- with a 21 policing problem as a result of the land claim issue in 22 that we had people out on the roadway and the sandy 23 parking lot and we had a number of criminal offences in 24 my opinion, and we had a threat to public safety on top 25 of what happened -- knowing what I knew about the meeting
1031 that I just had with these cottagers down there. 2 So this was something that needed to be 3 dealt with as a result of -- of what had taken place, but 4 it -- it was, in my view, it was -- I -- I appreciated 5 that it was -- is connected to the land claim issue, but 6 it was separate and distinct in my mind because there was 7 criminal offences and a threat to public order there and 8 it had to be dealt with. 9 Q: And the -- on page 308 the reference 10 of "take that position again", of what were you referring 11 to there? 12 A: What I meant was the -- earlier that 13 morning, the -- yes, that morning, there was a move into 14 the sandy parking lot with the picnic tables and that was 15 the area that I was talking about was the -- that they 16 were going to take that position again. 17 Q: Okay. And then the reference that 18 we've now corrected, "Listen, Boss, I've got Linton 19 here." and then: 20 "Well, if those people can identify the 21 guys who threw rocks we can do something 22 but if they can't, then we're not doing -- 23 they're not doing anything wrong." 24 And you're articulating in that, Mr. 25 Linton's position.
1041 A: Right. And my frustration -- 2 Q: And -- 3 A: -- with that. 4 Q: That over on the next page you 5 indicate what you think are the offences? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And then we -- at the bottom of page 8 309 you say: 9 "Oh fuck I don't know, waffle, we'll be 10 here until fucking daylight figuring it 11 out and daylight's a wasting. 12 And what was your concern when you said 13 that? 14 A: Well first, I'd like to apologize for 15 the -- the profanity that I used. Things were rather 16 tense there and I slipped into some language that I 17 regret and would have preferred not to have used, but be 18 that as it may. 19 So my -- apologize to the Commissioner and 20 the Inquiry. 21 In any event what -- what I meant was his 22 confusing mixed messages from Inspector Linton. I went 23 from -- we were going to go down there with individuals 24 with helmets and -- and K-9 to we're -- we're not going 25 to do anything because they're not -- they're not doing
1051 anything wrong if we can't identify the individual who 2 did the damage to that vehicle. 3 The fact that they -- they were -- a 4 number of them were armed and had taken control of that 5 area, he didn't seem, in my opinion, to grasp that those 6 were offences separate and distinct from the public 7 safety issue in general. 8 And I -- I felt we needed to deal with 9 this quickly and hence the "daylight's a wasting" 10 because, you know, earlier that day we dealt with the 11 picnic tables when Inspector Carson was there. 12 We identified a problem, we appreciated 13 the fact -- everybody appreciate -- I appreciated the 14 fact that this needed to be dealt with immediately and it 15 was. 16 It was dealt with very quickly by 17 Inspector Carson and I felt that that -- the same sort of 18 thing was taking place again, only that it was somewhat 19 escalating because there were individuals who were 20 actually armed down there, or a number of them were armed 21 down there. 22 So my feeling was we needed to deal with 23 this right away and he seemed to be moving from an overly 24 aggressive position to the farthest from that, a very 25 passive position, and then -- and hence my -- my
1061 statement with respect to waffling. 2 Q: And do you have any information or 3 knowledge of whether or not Inspector Linton was briefed 4 about the picnic table incident in the morning? 5 A: I wouldn't know that because I was 6 gone and the -- the switch-over between C/O's happened 7 when I wasn't -- when I was down talking to the people. 8 Q: And what was your recollection as to 9 the lighting conditions at -- or when you drove back from 10 the Army Camp Checkpoint D at Highway 21 and Army Camp 11 Road to the command post at Forest Detachment? 12 A: It -- it wasn't night time but it was 13 -- it was getting to the end of the day, but there was 14 still light there. And that was another one of my 15 concerns as well. 16 I wanted to deal with this. I recognized 17 that this was -- to do with this daylight was much better 18 than to do this in the dark. 19 Q: And then at the bottom of page 310. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 21 I know this is important and I don't want to rush you but 22 we do have to take a break at some time. Would this be a 23 good time or -- 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- do you
1071 want to finish this area? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. No, this 3 would be fine. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 5 break. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 10:40 a. m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 10:59 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Commissioner, one -- before we 17 proceed, I would like to take you back to page 308, 18 Inspector Wright. And I'm going to play that -- that 19 clip again where it says we've corrected it to say, 20 "Listen, Boss, I've got Linton here." 21 And then there's a word -- it appears to 22 be 'and well' and I would like you to -- 23 A: Page 308 -- 24 Q: Page 308, at the bottom. The trans - 25 - the conversation --
1081 A: Okay. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 4 5 Background: (Okay the school bus and the dump truck 6 are looking like they're moving toward the 7 roadway now.) 8 WRIGHT: The school bus and the dump truck look 9 like they're moving towards the road now, 10 so they're going to try and take that 11 position again, we got that house there... 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 WRIGHT: We got the whole day shift ERT Team here 14 and Canine. 15 CARSON: Okay, just just ah... 16 Background: (I/A radio transmission) 17 WRIGHT: Just (I/A) 18 CARSON: Yeah. 19 WRIGHT: Listen, Boss, I've got Linton here and 20 well if -- if -- if those people can 21 identify the guys who threw rocks, we can 22 do something but if they can't, then 23 they're not doing anything wrong. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED)
1091 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And it appears to say 'and well.' 3 A: I think so, yes. 4 Q: So that -- for the purposes of the 5 record, to the best we can determine it, this entry 6 should read: 7 "Listen, Boss, I've got Linton here and 8 well -- if -- if those people can 9 identify the guys who threw rocks, we 10 can do something but if they can't, 11 then they're not doing anything wrong." 12 Do you agree with that, Inspector Wright? 13 A: I do. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, then you say -- if you could 18 turn to page 310 of the transcript, and this again is Tab 19 48 of Exhibit P-444D. 20 "Don't you say we go get those fucking 21 guys." 22 Carson says: 23 "Well we got to deal with them. We 24 can't let them out in that area with that stuff." 25
1101 And can you tell the Commissioner what's 2 that reference to, getting those guys? 3 A: What I meant was, dealing with those 4 people, those individuals on the sandy parking lot, 5 moving them off of there, either into -- into the Park. 6 And those that didn't move into the Park would have been 7 arrested if they would have had weapons or whatever. 8 I mean my -- my intent there was let's 9 just move them out of there and get them back into the 10 Park. 11 Q: Okay. And then you go on and on page 12 312 you can hear your voice, that you lower voice on the 13 tape when you say: 14 "He's calling out TRU." 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And did you -- how did you know he 17 was calling out TRU? 18 A: I heard him. 19 Q: You heard -- 20 A: Right. You can hear Inspector 21 Linting -- Linton in the background on that tape. 22 Q: Yes, I've picked up his voice a few 23 times, but you -- so you heard him calling out "TRU" -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- and by calling out "TRU" you
1111 overheard a telephone conversation, or what did you hear? 2 A: All I can recall is I heard him 3 asking for the TRU team and that caused me concern. 4 Q: And the scribe note indicates at 5 20:08 hours, page 73, or page 474 of 427: 6 "Dale Linton request Comm call out TRU 7 and report here." 8 And is that what you overheard? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And why were you -- did you lower 11 your voice when you told Inspector Carson he was calling 12 out TRU? 13 A: Well, for a couple of reasons. One 14 (1) is, I felt that I was in a very difficult situation 15 right there because they were both inspectors and I was 16 talking to one (1) about the actions of the other. And I 17 was concerned that -- about his decision that he was 18 calling out the tactical team, that I didn't think that 19 was appropriate and it caused me concern. 20 Q: And any other reasons? 21 A: No, that would be it. 22 Q: And why did it cause you concern that 23 he was calling out the tactical team? 24 A: Well, it just didn't make sense to me 25 to use a Tactical Rescue Unit to deal with a number of
1121 individuals, some of them who may be armed with bats, or 2 axe handles, or whatever, on the roadway and on the sandy 3 parking lot. My experience and understanding of the 4 Tactical Rescue Unit was you didn't engage them as an 5 arrest team. 6 Q: And what you contemplated was that -- 7 what you were -- what was in your mind about dealing with 8 the people in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: My -- my mind set for that was we 10 needed to go down there and deal with them. And they 11 were, in my mind, clearly committing criminal offences so 12 if we -- if we went down there and they were still there 13 doing exactly the same thing that they were when I was 14 there, then they would be committing offences and we 15 could arrest them. 16 However, if they ran back into the Park, 17 then we would never run back into the Park after them 18 because that -- that was the line in the -- in the sand 19 as it were, we -- we weren't going to go in the Park in 20 any way, shape, or form, so that would have been fine 21 too. 22 I mean the problem would have been solved 23 one (1) way or another. As soon as they're -- they're 24 off the roadway and they're not a threat to the people 25 there or the property there and they're back in the Park,
1131 then we're back to status quo. 2 Q: Okay. And if you go to page 309 and 3 the top of page 310, you say: 4 "Well -- well, don't you want to be 5 briefed about the citizens?" 6 And on the tape you sound a little 7 frustrated? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And why was that? 10 A: Well -- and I have to take 11 responsibility for that because I didn't clearly explain 12 to Inspector Carson the concern that I had about the -- 13 the cottage owners that had met -- that I had met there 14 earlier with. 15 So I don't think he understood my concern 16 about potentially them coming back and maybe marching 17 again. 18 So he -- he kind of -- he pushed me back 19 towards Linton, because he was there and I was a little 20 frustrated by that because I felt that to be part and 21 parcel with the -- the problem there, and the reason that 22 I felt it needed to deal -- be dealt with right away. 23 Q: But the fact the citizens were upset 24 and hadn't -- had contemplated walk -- marching down to 25 the Park?
1141 A: Right. 2 Q: Now, the -- at this point in time I'd 3 like you to turn to... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: It -- there's a call at 20:08, start 8 time, and approximate corrected time is 20:15. and this 9 is Dale Linton paging John Carson and you're heard in the 10 background. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 13 14 Telephone Conversation: 15 Command Post - Track 3 16 Date: 06 September 1995 17 Start Time: 20:08 hours 18 Approximate Corrected Time: 20:15 hours 19 Duration of Conversation: 45 seconds 20 21 Conversation Involves: Dale Linton paging John Carson. 22 Mark Wright heard in the background 23 24 I/A conversation...blinds closed and...I/A 25
1151 Archibald: Keeps ducking down and looking out 2 Linton: What's the prefix on John's number four 3 one six 4 Wright: Five one nine I believe, no, is it four 5 one six, five one nine 6 Wright: Yeah have they identified people. Hey 7 Arch all I want to know if they identify 8 the stones coming from the individuals at 9 the curve there, I don't give a shit if 10 they can identify particular people. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And you will have in front of you 16 that particular trans -- it's in the -- the fold -- that 17 little group of transcripts that I've given you. 18 And it's your voice in the background? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: And you appear to be saying: 21 "Yeah have they identified people. Hey 22 Arch all I want to know if they 23 identify the stones coming from the 24 individuals at the curve there, I don't 25 give a shit if they can identify
1161 particular people." 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And what are you doing at that point? 4 What -- who are you speaking to? 5 A: Arch is the civilian radio operator 6 that's in the command post and I'm talking to him about - 7 - because Inspector Linton was still -- although he was 8 going to be calling out ERT he was still wanting to know 9 about if the individual could identify the persons who 10 damaged his vehicle. 11 So you can hear me through Linton's 12 telephone telling him -- asking Arch, the civilian radio 13 operator, to ask Poole, this is from me through the radio 14 operator to Poole at the scene, if Constable Poole can 15 identify the stones, and that's why I said earlier that 16 my -- that was my impression that there had been stones, 17 coming from the individuals at the Park there. 18 So -- and then: 19 "I don't give a shit if they can 20 identify the particular people." 21 So -- and what I meant by that is 22 individually can -- if they can identify the damage 23 coming from the people that were there, then, in my mind, 24 I meant the concern that Inspector Linton had. 25 Q: Okay. I would ask that that be
1171 marked the next exhibit, sir. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1116, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1116: Transcript of Telephone 5 Conversation, Dale Linton 6 paging John Carson, Mark 7 Wright heard in background, 8 Command Post, Track 3, 20:15 9 hours. Sept. 06/ '95. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Then if you go to the next page 13 there's a transcript of a call again at approximate time 14 20:15 hours. It's a radio transcript -- radio 15 communication and I'll just play it. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 Radio Transmission: 20 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 21 Date: 06 September 1995 22 Start Time: 20:15 hours 23 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 4 seconds 24 Conversation Involves: Lima one Checkpoint Charlie 25 (Poole)
1181 2 Lima 1: checkpoint Charlie Lima one 3 Charlie: Checkpoint Charlie this is Poole Lima one 4 are you trying to raise me 5 Lima 1: That's ten four have you completed that 6 statement 7 Charlie: Ah Lima one checkpoint Charlie, it will be 8 completed in about five minutes 9 Wright: Sammy it's Mark, all I need to know is ah 10 your victim identify ah that stuff coming 11 from those guys at the curve there 12 Wright: Sammy if you can hear me ah, finish your 13 statement and then respond from a car, a 14 car radio your portable's not coming 15 through okay, clear. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And Sammy is Constable Sam Poole? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And the -- what you're -- what are 23 you doing there when you're asking -- 24 A: Well, again, I'm -- I'm trying to get 25 the point to him about finding out if -- or getting him
1191 to clar -- to confirm that the individual whose vehicles 2 been damaged can identify the -- and I call it 'stuff' 3 but that's in reference to the stones coming from those 4 guys at the curb, because I didn't -- I know Linton felt 5 that he needed to identify the individual specifically. 6 But my intent at this particular time was 7 to go back to him and say, Well, you know, now, sir, it's 8 very clear that those -- the damage has come from those 9 individuals. 10 And then they are, you know, there are a 11 number of them who are committing that offence and may be 12 party to that offense and going into the other criminal 13 offences because, in my view, we had more than enough 14 offences taking place, separate and distinct from the 15 damage to the vehicle, in which to deal with the 16 situation. 17 But I was trying to get what I could so 18 that I could engage Inspector Linton again with respect 19 to dealing with the situation. 20 Q: Okay. And then at -- if I could take 21 you to the scribe notes again. And the entry in the 22 scribe notes is at 20:08. Can you -- this, again, is the 23 reference with respect to which we looked at before we 24 went to these calls. 25 But Dale Linton asks you if we could
1201 identify any of the guys. You indicate that we have 2 possession of weapons and then Dale Linton says he wants 3 something in writing. 4 And then at 20:14 there's an entry: 5 "Stan Korosec reports one (1) person in 6 kiosk and closed blinds. [And the] 7 Dale Linton calling Carson to update. 8 Mark Wright and Trevor Richardson agree 9 as to criminal offence of the weapons 10 dangerous with the ones in the back." 11 So did you speak to Trevor Richardson 12 about the particular offences? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And then the -- the next thing is a 15 note in -- separate and apart from the call between Mr. 16 Carson and Mr. Linton, is Constable Poole calls the radio 17 operator and identifies the -- at 20:17 hours and it's a 18 radio transmission, and this is identified at 20:17 hours 19 Checkpoint Charlie Poole? 20 A: Right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And I should have entered the last 25 transcript, I thought we did, as P-1117, the one at
1211 20:15. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1117, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1117: Transcript of Radio 5 Transmission, LIMA 1 and 6 Checkpoint Charlie (Poole) 7 Chatham Logger 0146, track 8 12, 20:15 hours, Sept. 9 06/'95. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 Radio Transmission: 14 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 15 Date: 06 September 1995 16 Start Time: 20:17 hours 17 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 17 seconds 18 Conversation Involves: Lima one Checkpoint Charlie 19 (Zacher) 20 21 Charlie: Lima one Charlie 22 Lima 1: Charlie Lima one 23 Charlie: To answer your question, that's ah, ten 24 four on the ID'ing positively from the 25 location of the incident
1221 Lima 1: That's ten four ah Charlie from lima one 2 ah Sergeant Wright has been advised. 3 Charlie: Lima one Charlie 4 Lima 1: Charlie lima one 5 Charlie: You can pass it onto Sergeant Wright as 6 well, victim possibly might have a suspect 7 possibly wanted with ah, other warrants. 8 Lima 1: Yeah confirm Charlie ah from Lima one that 9 your ah victim can possibly identify one 10 of the other parties that may have 11 warrants. 12 Charlie: That's ten four it's related to the 13 incident with the damage, he observed it 14 himself 15 Lima 1: That's ten four we copied Detective 16 Sergeant Wright advised 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And it would appear from this 22 transcript that you were there, because that's: 23 "10-4 Charlie from LIMA 1. Sergeant 24 Wright has been advised." 25 A: Yeah. Close enough that I could hear
1231 the -- the comms. 2 Q: And I would ask... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: The voice on the -- the radio 7 transmission, I think I said Sam Poole, and I believe 8 it's Constable Zacher? 9 A: I would agree. 10 Q: And I apologize. So this is a call 11 from Constable Zacher into the Command Post, not Sam 12 Poole? 13 A: I would agree. 14 Q: So I would ask that the exhibit -- 15 that we mark the transcript as the next exhibit, P-1118. 16 And on the transcript copy if we could change the name 17 Poole to Zacher? 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1118: Transcript of Radio 20 Transmission LIMA 1 and 21 Checkpoint Charlie (Zacher) 22 Chatham Logger 0146, track 23 12, 20:17 hours, Sept. 24 06/'95. 25
1241 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: At Tab 38 -- 7 of your book the -- 3 there's a copy of the transcript between the -- Dale 4 Linton and John Carson. And I'm just going to play that, 5 Commissioner, it's part of -- we've played it before but 6 it's Tab 51 in Exhibit P-444B. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 37, Tab 8 37. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at Tab 30. It's 10 -- it's at Tab 37 in this book -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In this 12 book, yes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- but in Exhibit -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 444B it's Tab 51. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 51, yes. 17 Thank you. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 LINTON: John. 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 LINTON: Yeah we're heating up big time, I just
1251 thought I would let you know we ah, we've 2 got about eight guys on the road right 3 down at the end of Army Camp Road, same 4 place where the fire was and the car come 5 around there and they apparently damaged 6 it, we're getting the statement now and 7 they wouldn't let it through I guess 8 and... 9 CARSON: What a private vehicle? 10 LINTON: Yeah. 11 LINTON: Yeah and ah so we just got a statement now 12 she says that they were hassling her. 13 Mark WRIGHT come through and ah they told 14 him they didn't know he was a cop or else 15 get the hell out of there and now they've 16 got the school bus down in the corner, 17 they're bringing a dump truck in...they're 18 in the kiosk with the windows down so 19 they're they're waiting for us to do 20 something, so I just they called the 21 T.R.U. Team in and ah what we're 22 gonna...well I'll till I get the 23 statement, we're probably going to go down 24 and arrest that group of ah eight or so 25 people blocking the roadway and there's no
1261 doubt that ah you know they're they're 2 waiting for something so it's it's a 3 little bit vulnerable so I'll suit the 4 T.R.U. up heavy and ah...put them in, so 5 they're on route here now, so... 6 CARSON: (I/A) 7 LINTON: Pardon...can't hear you. 8 CARSON: (I/A( are you. 9 LINTON: Can't...can't hear you. 10 CARSON: Are you telling me you got the T.R.U. 11 Team? Can you hear me Dale. 12 Linton Just...(what do you want) 13 (Background...The speaker (I/A) 14 LINTON: John. 15 CARSON: Yeah. 16 LINTON: I can't hear you. 17 CARSON: I'll call you on a hard line. 18 LINTON: Okay. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 END OF CONVERSATION 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now, you'll -- at the top of page
1271 325, the transcript's been corrected from Carson to 2 Linton. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: But he says: 5 "We just got a statement now. She says 6 that they were hassling her." 7 A: Right, that's what it says. 8 Q: Did you ever tell and -- Dale Linton 9 that the person involved was a woman? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And do you recall anyone else telling 12 him and -- while you were present that the person 13 involved was a woman? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did you tell him or anyone else 16 that, excuse me. Were you -- did anyone else advise Dale 17 Linton in your presence that there was another incident 18 involving a car at the corner? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And the... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: If I could ask you to turn to Tab 32. 25 This is a copy of Exhibit P-470, Inquiry Document
1281 2003683. And the -- the statement of Inspector Linton 2 is: 3 "Detective Sergeant Wright advised that 4 a few minutes ago a woman was driving 5 her car on Parkway Drive at the 6 intersection with Army Camp Road. 7 She was stopped by a group of 8-10 male 8 First Nations people, several of them 9 whom -- several of whom had objects in 10 their hands similar to baseball bats or 11 axe handles. 12 The woman's car was struck, resulting 13 in damage prior to her being able to 14 drive away. Provincial Constable Poole 15 was assigned to take a damage statement 16 and investigate the damage complaint 17 and blocking the driveway. 18 Detective Sergeant Wright advised that 19 the lady had just come from the public 20 meeting at our Technical Operations 21 Centre. 22 Detective Sergeant Wright then advised 23 he had driven past the location only a 24 short time earlier and saw eight (8) to 25 ten (10) First Nations people on the
1291 roadway. 2 He said at least four (4) of them had 3 baseball bats or similar objects in 4 their hands. He said that he drove up 5 to the group, plain cars, plainclothes 6 and they told them to get out of there 7 as there was going to be trouble. 8 Dale -- Detective Sergeant Wright and 9 most of the other personnel present 10 were suggesting we should immediately 11 deploy the ERT unit to arrest the 12 individuals for having offensive 13 weapons, mischief for blocking the 14 highway, unlawful assembly, breach of 15 the peace, or mischief for the vehicle 16 damage. 17 As this discussion took place we were 18 being made aware of other information, 19 i.e. a school bus and dump truck was 20 being noted near the area just inside 21 the Park. 22 Natives were occupying the Park kiosk 23 which is close by and the window blinds 24 were shut. 25 The women and children on the Army Camp
1301 were congregating at the main gate, 2 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road and told 3 our members at Checkpoint Delta they 4 were leaving the area, as there was 5 going to be trouble." 6 Now, did you ever tell Dale Linton that, 7 as I indica -- asked you a moment ago, with respect to 8 the telephone call, that it was a woman who was stopped 9 by the eight (8) or ten (10) men? 10 A: I never did. 11 Q: Did you tell Dale Linton that 12 Detective Sergeant Wright advised, The lady had just come 13 from the public meeting at our Tactical Operation Centre? 14 A: No. 15 Q: "Detective Sergeant Wright then 16 advised he had driven past the location 17 only a short time before." 18 Now, you did tell Dale Linton, as you've 19 told us, that you had been at the meeting at the MNR 20 parking lot, the Tactical Operation Centre located there. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: You did tell Dale Linton that you 23 went to the corner? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And that you had observed eight (8)
1311 to ten (10) people in the sandy parking lot, some of whom 2 had baseball bats or axe handles or something's in their 3 hands? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. You did tell Dale Linton that 6 one (1) of the people from the sandy parking lot spoke to 7 you? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you did tell Dale Linton that you 10 had been advised that there was -- a vehicle had been 11 damaged? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you tell Dale Linton that the 14 damage was from stones? 15 A: I don't recall, specifically, telling 16 him that but the conver -- the tape that we just played, 17 Linton's on the phone talking -- waiting for Carson on 18 the page and I'm making that comment right through his 19 phone through to the civilian radio operator. 20 So I don't know if I told him that -- 21 specifically that but by -- by -- I was yelling it right 22 through the communications, the command post with him on 23 the phone and -- and the tape comes through his phone. 24 So there was no doubt in my mind that he 25 knew -- I was under no misconception as -- as --
1321 regarding to what I thought he knew, that a male was down 2 there and his vehicle had been damaged by stones. 3 And I don't know where he made the leap to 4 a female. 5 Q: But you understand now that 6 information was passed on to Inspector Carson? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: When did you learn that it had been 9 passed on to Inspector Carson that a woman's car had been 10 damaged with bats? 11 A: The first time that I heard that 12 Inspector Carson was of the mind that a lady's car had 13 been damaged by bats, was when I watched him give 14 evidence to that affect at the Inquiry here. 15 Q: And did you -- had you seen the press 16 releases put out by the OPP the evening of the 6th and 17 the 7th? 18 A: No. Because when that -- I was 19 elsewhere engaged and then I was in my car and on my way 20 to the injunction when all of that -- I didn't get back 21 til much later, all that had taken place. 22 Q: And did anyone to your -- the people 23 that were -- we've at least identified were in the 24 command post were Dale Linton, Stan Korosec, Rob Graham, 25 during this period of time, was he still there, Rob
1331 Graham? 2 A: I don't -- 3 Q: You can't -- 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: Then the civilian radio operator, and 6 then Trevor Richardson came in when -- when it -- 7 according to the scribe note, Dale Linton was on the 8 phone to Carson. 9 A: Right, and Cousineau would be there, 10 too. 11 Q: And -- and Sergeant Cousineau. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Do you recall any of those people 14 telling Dale Linton that the car involved was driven by a 15 woman and had been damaged by baseball bats? 16 A: No. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: And I did -- I didn't know -- I 21 didn't know that he had told Carson that, either. I'm 22 not sure if I'd said that, but I didn't know that either 23 until -- 24 Q: You didn't -- 25 A: Oh, yes, I did say that, right.
1341 Q: Yes, you did say that. Now, and just 2 for the purposes of the record, the conversation at -- at 3 Tab -- at Tab 37 of the document book, but at Exhibit 4 444B, page -- Tab 51 and noted at 20:13 hours. 5 And I believe that it should be -- you 6 can't -- this is one of those where you can't add, I 7 don't think, seven (7) minutes exactly but it -- from 8 what I'm told it might be a little later than 20:13. 9 Because then John Carson phones back and 10 they have another conversation. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Can I -- sir, I guess to put it in 15 context, that Linton calls Carson because Carson told me 16 to tell Linton that if he was calling out TRU, that 17 Inspector Carson wanted to know that was taking place, so 18 that's why that page went out. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I'm going to play the conversations, 23 Commissioner, and I don't -- you don't have a transcript 24 there, but it's in Exhibit 444B at Tab 52. 25
1351 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOWED) 2 3 WRIGHT: John? 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 WRIGHT: Yeah hang on. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 WRIGHT: (It's John he's on a hard line.) 8 LINTON: Hello. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 LINTON: Yeah Jesus or I don't know what they're 11 doing but they're they're building up for 12 something down there cause their stuff is 13 set up. 14 CARSON: Okay ah you you were saying you were going 15 to ah you were calling out T.R.U.? 16 LINTON: Yeah. 17 CARSON: What are you going to do with them? 18 LINTON: Well T.R.U. is probably going to end up ah 19 going in and doing an arrest. 20 CARSON: Dale don't do that. 21 LINTON: No. 22 CARSON: Don't do that. If you do that we are in 23 trouble, okay. And are are you asking my 24 advice or are you just informing me here, 25 we better get this straight.
1361 LINTON: No we we need to discuss this. 2 CARSON: Okay do you want me to come in? 3 LINTON: Well what what's ah why shouldn't we use 4 like what we've got... 5 CARSON: Well what what are you going to achieve by 6 using T.R.U. that E.R.T. can't do? 7 LINTON: Well... 8 CARSON: If somebody goes down then then what are 9 you going to do? 10 LINTON: Like I think you got a build up ah inside 11 and that's my concern, it's not going to 12 arrest these eight guys, we were going... 13 CARSON: Oh oh... 14 LINTON: With E.R.T. once we got a statement. My 15 concern is that you have the school bus 16 moving down there, you've got the dump 17 truck moving down there and you've got 18 people in the kiosk pulling the blinds all 19 down and I think there's ah you know a 20 threat here of maybe sniper fire or like 21 they're doing something inside getting 22 ready for us. 23 CARSON: Okay well okay well that's fine and let's 24 evacuate those houses if you think... 25 LINTON: Okay.
1371 CARSON: There's a threat of that nature, but don't 2 go in there with T.R.U. If you go in with 3 T.R.U. and somebody gets hurt we have 4 nobody else to get them out. 5 LINTON: No, what I'm doing is I'm getting T.R.U. 6 to come here. 7 CARSON: Well I wouldn't even do that. 8 LINTON: No. 9 CARSON: If you if you if you bring that Team up 10 you got to be ready to deploy them. 11 They're... 12 LINTON: Is if I send my if I send the E.R.T. guys 13 in to arrest these eight people... 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 LINTON: And all hell breaks loose... 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 LINTON: And I've got T.R.U. suited and close by. 18 CARSON: Well that's fine but I would leave them in 19 the Pinery Park, they're closer from the 20 Pinery than they are from from Forest and 21 then you're going to create a Media event 22 with the T.R.U. Team truck sitting in town 23 here. 24 LINTON: Okay so... 25 CARSON: So...
1381 LINTON: I'll suit them up and leave them in Pinery 2 then. 3 CARSON: I I wouldn't do any more than that for the 4 time being. 5 LINTON: Okay. And then we'll do the arrest with 6 the E.R.T. guys? 7 CARSON: I would I'd call out all sixty of them if 8 you have to. 9 LINTON: Yeah. 10 CARSON: Whatever's necessary we'll do that but I 11 would I I... 12 LINTON: Alright. 13 CARSON: I tell you keep them in reserve. 14 LINTON: Okay. 15 (Background...hello Pam) 16 LINTON: Alright that's what we'll do. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 LINTON: And then if something happens we'll bring 19 them down. 20 CARSON: Do you want me to come back in? 21 LINTON: No. 22 CARSON: You're in charge. 23 LINTON: No we're fine. 24 CARSON: Okay, well I'll be at my motel. 25 LINTON: Okay.
1391 CARSON: Okay thanks. 2 3 END OF CONVERSATION. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And that's identified as being at 9 20:15:40 on the exhibit and in the scribe note that 10 appears to be -- it's identified as 20:20 hours, John 11 Carson called back Dale Linton. 12 Then at 20:21 hours there's a -- an 13 indication: 14 "Stan Korosec called Wade Lacroix to 15 attend. Advise Mark Wright and Dale 16 Linton." 17 Do you see that? 18 A: I recall that happening, yes. 19 Q: And whose idea -- was there a 20 discussion between the officers in the command post about 21 calling Wade Lacroix to attend? 22 A: I don't there was a dis -- I wouldn't 23 call it a discussion. What happened was -- and Inspector 24 Linton is alluding to that on that call. 25 But a number of things are now going on
1401 with respect to the kiosk and the movement of vehicles. 2 So, I mean, a number of things are going on. 3 And after his conversation with Inspector 4 Carson, he came back and talked about using ERT in a 5 rather large formation. So that's when I made the 6 suggestion to him about -- well, you know, you can put 7 "X" number of them together and they form a CMU, Crowd 8 Management Unit. 9 And if that's what you're thinking, then 10 you're going to need a staff sergeant to run that. 11 Because a CMU can't go down there without a staff 12 sergeant. So if that's something you want to do, we 13 better ca -- and I knew that Wade Lacroix was a -- not 14 only do you have to be a staff sergeant, we have to have 15 the appropriate training. 16 And having been the ERT sergeant before 17 that, I knew that Staff Sergeant Lacroix was 18 appropriately trained and the closest staff sergeant in 19 the vicinity. 20 So I made that known to Inspector Linton 21 that if that's what he was going to do, then he'd want to 22 get a hold of Lacroix. And Korosec made that call. 23 Q: So the -- as I understand it on the 24 telephone call, Dale Linton was thinking of a large 25 number of ERT officers being used and as well as TRU.
1411 What -- what was your understanding what he was going to 2 do with TRU -- 3 A: I wasn't quite sure what he was going 4 to do with TRU, at that time. I was just making the -- 5 the information known to Inspector Linton because I 6 didn't know if -- that was my job to let him, you know, 7 give him all the possible options. And when he started 8 talking about a large group of ERT members, then that's 9 when I made the -- that's the first time I talked to him 10 about a Crowd Management Unit. 11 And -- because again, one (1) of the 12 things that I was concerned about was the clock was 13 ticking in that it was getting darker and things were 14 happening. And you know, if we were going to -- if 15 that's what he was going to do, then he was going to need 16 a staff sergeant. 17 And we were going to have to -- we were 18 going to have to wait more for Lacroix to get there in 19 order to deal with that. So I thought if that's what 20 you're going to do, we best get on that. 21 Q: Okay. The -- then there's a note at 22 20:22, page 74 of the -- Exhibit P-426: 23 "Reports of Kettle Point people in 24 pickup who were opposed have arrived, 25 in a blue pickup. Dale Linton at 10:21
1421 to John Carson. School bus and dump 2 truck and numerous people move into the 3 area." 4 That's -- I -- that's your understanding 5 that's a call that we just referred -- we just played? 6 A: Right, that's correct. 7 Q: Then "Dale did not quote, "Get TRU 8 suited but have them stand by in Pinery. Because they 9 are closer there?" 10 And then there's an entry: 11 "20:26. Dale Linton to comm centre. I 12 want TRU to stay at Pinery Park. [then] 13 Mark Dew call Dale Linton reporting 14 Native women and children moving out. 15 There's a report something is going to 16 happen. 17 Were you present when that discussion took 18 place about the women and children? 19 A: I -- I become aware of that. I'm in 20 the command post, but I think and it'll be time stamped, 21 I suspect, is I -- I begin to have a conversation with 22 McCabe somewhere around here, Mr. McCabe. And that may 23 be of assistance because I now move on to talking to Mr. 24 McCabe because I think he either calls or I call him, one 25 or the other, but right in around here, I'm talking to
1431 Mr. McCabe while this is going on. 2 Because my -- that's my recollection. 3 Q: And the call with Mr. McCabe... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: If you go to Tab 39. It's -- there's 8 a transcript there, Tab 39 in the -- it should be in that 9 book. 10 A: Thirty-nine (39). 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Excuse me. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I have a tab that goes from 38 to 64, 19 to 40. 20 Q: That's it. Tab 39 -- 21 A: Right, okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And according to the information we
1441 have, this trans -- this call starts at 20:18, although 2 there's some indication that -- that 20:18 number may be 3 subject to the seven (7) minutes and be actually 20:25. 4 A: Right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: And during that conversation with Mr. 9 McCabe, I -- I make a comment and I say, you know, 10 something along the lines of, I'm listening to you with 11 one ear and listening to what's going on with the other 12 ear. I was aware of the -- the information that started 13 to somewhat stream into the command post about, you know, 14 the women and children leaving and all the other things 15 that are taking place at that time. 16 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 20 21 WRIGHT: Hello Tim. 22 MCCABE: Yes. 23 WRIGHT: Hi, it's ah Detective Mark WRIGHT. 24 MCCABE: Oh, thank you ah 25 WRIGHT: At ah the Land of Oz here.
1451 MCCABE: (Chuckles) that's how it's starting to 2 feel eh? 3 WRIGHT: Well it's really the shit's coming down 4 right now. 5 MCCABE: It is eh? 6 WRIGHT: Yeah. 7 MCCABE: What's what's going on there? 8 WRIGHT: Well we got major trouble right now. 9 MCCABE: Really? 10 WRIGHT: Yeah. 11 MCCABE: What's what's the problem? 12 WRIGHT: Well they're moving ah they're coming 13 out for a fight down to the road so 14 were taken all the marines down now. 15 MCCABE: Oh my goodness. Ah alright well as so 16 ah that that doesn't affect our 17 activity tomorrow morning does... 18 WRIGHT: Well it might affect my my amount of 19 sleep for you (chuckles) 20 MCCABE: Yeah well well listen I in exactly the 21 same position... 22 WRIGHT: Yeah. 23 MCCABE: We have to get up at 4:00 o'clock to 24 get down there. 25 WRIGHT: Yeah.
1461 MCCABE: Yeah, listen um I what I what I wanted 2 to do even though we're going to have a 3 chance tomorrow morning to talk at the 4 ah... 5 WRIGHT: Courthouse. 6 MCCABE: The courthouse, I thought it would be 7 helpful to both of us if I if I ah talk 8 to you and just sort of gave you the 9 way I think it's going to unfold as far 10 as your evidence is concerned. 11 WRIGHT: Okay. 12 MCCABE: And and I can tell you you know the 13 questions that I would... 14 WRIGHT: That I want to know. 15 MCCABE: Propose to ask... 16 WRIGHT: Yeah. 17 MCCABE: And ah you'll see as we go there they 18 are some specific questions but of 19 course I don't want to lead you much 20 and ah... 21 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. 22 MCCABE: And and so there are a couple of places 23 where you will just be telling the 24 story. 25 WRIGHT: Yeah.
1471 MCCABE: Ah you know just just giving a 2 narrative so ah you know so we can work 3 this out you can tell me where I've ah 4 where where I've gone wrong here or how 5 we could do it better but but I thought 6 we'd ah you know after identifying you 7 ah what's your name, I understand that 8 you're an officer with the ONTARIO 9 PROVINCIAL POLICE. 10 WRIGHT: Yeah. 11 MCCABE: Ah then what is your rank and your role 12 with the OPP so that... 13 WRIGHT: Okay, yeah it's simple. 14 MCCABE: Yeah. 15 WRIGHT: Yeah. 16 MCCABE: Then I thought I would do something 17 like I understand that in the course of 18 your duties with the OPP you have had 19 occasion to have contact with 20 aboriginal persons at Camp Ipperwash on 21 Lake Huron ah in the County of Lampton. 22 WRIGHT: Camp Ipperwash? 23 MCCABE: Yeah because at this point... 24 WRIGHT: Yeah. 25 MCCABE: What I have in mind is I'm I'm told by
1481 Inspector CARSON and... 2 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. 3 MCCABE: and and ah that that you have been 4 involved in this for a couple of years. 5 WRIGHT: Yeah, I sure have. 6 MCCABE: The first ah occupation in '93. 7 WRIGHT: Yeah. 8 MCCABE: Ah can you hang on just a sec? 9 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. 10 MCCABE: Hello. 11 WRIGHT: Yeah. 12 MCCABE: Yeah, ah so that's your signal to well 13 you just say yes to that and then and 14 then what was the occasion of that 15 contact and then if you could then you 16 know explain what you've been doing in 17 '93 and '94 I guess it's two years ago 18 and then now. 19 WRIGHT: Yeah well okay I can start with I'm 20 going to have to be real vague with ah 21 ah dates and stuff like that, okay but 22 I can say you know it originally ah my 23 involvement originally started with ah 24 the occupation of the ah Canadian 25 Forces Base Ipperwash in the ah non
1491 built up area of the base. 2 MCCABE: Right. 3 WRIGHT: Which as later evolved into an 4 attempted murder of Canadian Forces 5 personnel flying overhead in ah 6 military hop helicopter in the summer 7 of '93 and ah ah which I was the ah 8 primary investigator in that 9 investigation ah and continued on into 10 ahm the an continuing tensions between 11 the military and the Natives on the 12 base, ah culminating in the (I/A) of 13 the base by a number of Indians who 14 called themselves Stony Point which 15 happened earlier I think in that would 16 be in ah Jesus what month are we in 17 now, September I'd say ah what August 18 July. 19 MCCABE: July I would think. 20 WRIGHT: Yeah that was the armed that was so 21 that would be my my continuing 22 investigation with the Army Base. 23 MCCABE: Alright so so well that's that's fine 24 that's exactly it just ah... 25 WRIGHT: Okay, just an just a READER'S DIGEST
1501 that's good enough eh? 2 MCCABE: Yeah that's fine. It's just to you 3 know just indicate that you have this 4 background ah you just didn't show up 5 yesterday ah on the scene here. 6 WRIGHT: Yeah. 7 MCCABE: Then ah something like ah where is 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park located in 9 relation to Camp Ipperwash? 10 WRIGHT: Oh okay that's no problem. 11 MCCABE: Right. 12 WRIGHT: Camp Ipperwash is I mean ah Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park is tucked into the ah 14 south...southwest corner of ah the 15 concession block which makes up ah 16 Ipperwash as Canadian Forces Base 17 Ipperwash. 18 MCCABE: So it's so it's... 19 WRIGHT: The bottom end. 20 MCCABE: It it yeah it's adjacent it's at that 21 bottom end... 22 WRIGHT: Yeah. 23 MCCABE: It's at the south end of... 24 WRIGHT: Yeah. 25 MCCABE: Of Ipperwash.
1511 WRIGHT: Yeah that's right a hundred and two 2 acres. 3 MCCABE: Yeah. 4 WRIGHT: Of park. 5 MCCABE: Alright then I understand that in 6 recent days Ipperwash Provincial Park 7 has been the subject of an 8 occupation... 9 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. 10 MCCABE: In addition so that at Camp Ipperwash. 11 WRIGHT: Right on, yes. 12 MCCABE: Okay and then and then we get into your 13 second long narrative, can you describe 14 the events as they've occurred since 15 Monday, September the 4th, Labour Day? 16 WRIGHT: Yeah, okay. 17 MCCABE: Now, uhm ah you know you do it in the 18 way you want but and I've got sort of a 19 list of points that I that I... 20 WRIGHT: Yeah. 21 MCCABE: Want to cover. 22 WRIGHT: Right. 23 MCCABE: And and ah it's best you know if it 24 comes from you... 25 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm.
1521 MCCABE: We talk about this again a little in 2 the morning... 3 WRIGHT: Morning that's right. 4 MCCABE: But but ah things like well you know 5 the numbers ah you you talk about the 6 events that they took it over on on the 7 evening of Monday ah ah the numbers of 8 people there ah ah I I would if you 9 didn't say it I would ask whether they 10 made any demands... 11 WRIGHT: Okay how about this, let me just give 12 you a quick blurb... 13 MCCABE: Alright. 14 WRIGHT: And I think I"ll probably be able to 15 cover all this for you. 16 MCCABE: Okay. 17 WRIGHT: They took the they occupied as Camp 18 Ipperwash at approximately 7:30 on 19 Monday evening with somewhere between 20 twenty and forty individuals which ah 21 ended in a violent confrontation 22 between ah police and Natives in that 23 ah our officers were threatened and ah 24 ah additional officers had to come in 25 to help ah rano ah extract officers
1531 that were trapped inside the park. 2 Immediately thereafter a command post 3 was set up blah blah blah additional 4 officers ah since that time we have set 5 up roadblocks in and around that area, 6 they I myself personally have attempted 7 to make contact on three different ah 8 times with individuals within the park 9 in an attempt to establish an open 10 dialogue with these people. They 11 they're unorganized they refuse to deal 12 with us they don't have a spokesman, ah 13 I've told them personally yesterday 14 whatever yesterday was... 15 MCCABE: Right. 16 WRIGHT: that ah ah person who was down there a 17 man by the name of Bert MANNING that 18 they were trespassing, they trespassed 19 the property and that they ah were 20 unlawfully on there that ah we 21 considered that unlawful possession of 22 land that the ah intention was that the 23 Ministry was going to attempt to ah 24 seek to obtain an injunction with 25 respect to their illegal occupation and
1541 who could I contact because it was my 2 undertaking that you the Natives on 3 holding ah possession of the park at 4 this particular time, would be allowed 5 representation and attendance at that 6 hearing if they so desired and I wanted 7 to make it up find an individual who we 8 could contact ah to serve and they told 9 me this individual told me that ah they 10 wanted nothing to do with us, they 11 didn't care about what we were going to 12 do and they weren't going to attend ah 13 any white man's court. 14 MCCABE: I see. 15 WRIGHT: That's pretty specific. 16 MCCABE: Yeah. 17 WRIGHT: Now we've had this shit that happened 18 tonight. 19 MCCABE: That covers...well we'll get to that. 20 WRIGHT: Yeah. 21 MCCABE: Ah and did they have they at any time 22 made any any specific demands? 23 WRIGHT: Absolutely not. 24 MCCABE: Alright have they made any statements 25 about why they are there?
1551 WRIGHT: Yes they have, they say ah ah that ah 2 they consider that secret land and they 3 also say that there is a secret burial 4 ground on that, that's been researched 5 is is hearsay information allowed at 6 these things? 7 MCCABE: Pardon me? 8 WRIGHT: Is hearsay allowed at this kind of a 9 thing or not, what are the rules of 10 evidence? 11 MCCABE: Ah ah I'm going to ask you the question 12 and you can you you say it and if the 13 Judge says ah he doesn't want to hear 14 hearsay well then... 15 WRIGHT: Okay. 16 MCCABE: You can't. 17 WRIGHT: Well what's my understanding that this 18 has been researched and there is no 19 burial ground on there, the title has 20 also been searched and they have no 21 claim there and there is no claim 22 before the civil courts with respect to 23 that by the Natives. 24 MCCABE: Right. 25 WRIGHT: I've also ah ah information received
1561 from Tom BRESSETTE whose the the the... 2 MCCABE: That's my next question... 3 WRIGHT: The Native as Chief of Kettle and Pony 4 Pointy Stony Point Band has made 5 comments in the press that ah that ah 6 that there is no burial ground there 7 and that ah there is no ah con 8 contention with respect to Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park and who it belongs to 10 and that it does belong to the ah ah 11 Ministry of Natural Resources so the 12 Province. 13 MCCABE: Alright, I would say at that point ah 14 you mentioned the ah Kettle Point and 15 ah and Stony Point... 16 WRIGHT: Yeah. 17 MCCABE: Ah Indian Band ah that ah Detective 18 Sergeant... 19 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. 20 MCCABE: Is that a status Indian Band? 21 WRIGHT: Yes it is, yes it is. 22 MCCABE: Is there any indication ah of its 23 position with respect to this 24 occupation? 25 WRIGHT: Yes ah my my understanding is that they
1571 do not support this in any way, shape 2 or form. 3 MCCABE: Alright now Detective Sergeant could 4 you ah sketch ah or outline for the 5 court some activities that ah ah the 6 people occupying the park have engaged 7 in over the last several days when the 8 occupation began. 9 WRIGHT: Okay. 10 MCCABE: And and here just (I/A) ah you know I'm 11 looking for things like the... 12 WRIGHT: I I... 13 MCCABE: (I/A) 14 WRIGHT: Yeah I know exactly what you're after. 15 They they've barricaded all entrances 16 to the park, they've broken into a 17 number of buildings and I can get into 18 those buildings I can name those 19 buildings... 20 MCCABE: Right. 21 WRIGHT: And where they are, they've taken ah 22 property out of those buildings ah such 23 as freezers and ah sink a stainless 24 steel sinks and removed them. They've 25 oh taken property of the Ministry of
1581 Natural Resources such as sirens and 2 lights and and attached them to cars in 3 there, they've ah burnt picnic tables 4 they've ah put barricades with garbage 5 huge garbage cans industrial cans and 6 ah wood and ah picnic tables at all 7 entrances to the gate. They've ah what 8 else have they done, they've ah let's 9 see what else have they've done... they 10 ah tried to block a part of residence 11 of public county land ah which is 12 running to the beach allowances and 13 I'll explain where that is with picnic 14 tables and that was removed and 15 individuals were charged with mischief 16 and ah ah mischief and wilful damage. 17 They've ah uhm assaulted two of our 18 officers, one of our officers and ah 19 trashed two of our cruisers so that we 20 right now we have five people charged 21 with criminal code occurrences with 22 respect to that occupation of that ah 23 Provincial Park. 24 MCCABE: Right you mentioned ah ah you mentioned 25 some charges, have have...
1591 WRIGHT: Yeah. 2 MCCABE: Warrants been issued? 3 WRIGHT: Yes warrants have been issued for ah 4 five individuals. 5 MCCABE: Ah is there ah ah is there any 6 suggestion of ah of alcohol on the 7 premises? 8 WRIGHT: ... Ah my information certainly the 9 first night there was and certainly ah 10 ah the second night, I I don't know 11 about last night or tonight for that 12 matter. 13 MCCABE: Let's see this is this is Wednesday 14 night so this is the third night. 15 WRIGHT: Yeah so okay so it was the first and 16 second night my indication there was 17 alcohol. 18 MCCABE: Right uhm... ah now you mentioned that 19 the persons occupying the park have 20 been advised that they are 21 trespassing... 22 WRIGHT: That's right. 23 MCCABE: Now by means was that ah accomplished? 24 WRIGHT: I personally told an individual by the 25 name of Bert MANNING personally at the
1601 front gate of CFB what used to be CFB 2 Ipperwash, on Tuesday afternoon at 3 approximately 1:00 o'clock. With me 4 was Len KOBAYASHI who was going to give 5 going to be there too so he can tell 6 you that, he's the MNR guy. 7 MCCABE: Right. 8 WRIGHT: And he was right there when I did it 9 and Les tried to tell them uhm Monday 10 night with an Provincial Constable so 11 he can tell you that as well. But I 12 told them and I also talked to an 13 individual who I do not know who he is 14 who came to talk to me this afternoon 15 at the at the down by the park where we 16 were conduct trying to attempt 17 negotiations and I told them that they 18 were trespassing. 19 MCCABE: Have ah have they been asked to leave? 20 WRIGHT: Yeah. 21 MCCABE: They've been they've been 22 specifically... 23 WRIGHT: I've told them I've told them I said, 24 you're trespassing you're going to have 25 to leave because if ah if you don't
1611 it's my understanding that's how I put 2 it it's my understanding that the 3 Ministry of Natural Resources intends 4 to seek an injunction to have you 5 removed. 6 MCCABE: Right. 7 WRIGHT: And then we're talking about criminal 8 code offences. 9 MCCABE: Alright. 10 WRIGHT: That's what I told them. 11 MCCABE: When you were going through the 12 activities I don't did you mention 13 guns, I as I understand there was some 14 gunfire last night. 15 WRIGHT: Yeah Christ if that's lie we were if we 16 have to give that out okay but we had a 17 report of automatic weapon fire in the 18 park. 19 MCCABE: Right. 20 WRIGHT: And and I I'll tell you what I was told 21 today, I was told by a guy it's hard to 22 negotiate with him and he says we'll do 23 our talking with guns, that's what he 24 said... 25 MCCABE: Oh my goodness okay well that's a good
1621 quote. 2 WRIGHT: Yeah. 3 MCCABE: That maybe his (I/A). 4 WRIGHT: Yeah. 5 MCCABE: But ah that's that's a good quote. 6 WRIGHT: Well he said it right to me. 7 MCCABE: Yeah. Yeah. 8 WRIGHT: So... 9 MCCABE: Then have ah ah ah the I guess I I've 10 got I've asked ah around this before 11 but have the persons occupying the park 12 provided any information or argument in 13 support of their ah assertion that they 14 have a right to be there? 15 WRIGHT: All no... all they have done is made ah 16 comments what I've seen on the news and 17 read in the paper and said to us ah and 18 that was Mr. MANNING who said they he 19 was happy that they had got their 20 burial ground back. But nothing and I 21 told him I said the proper way to do 22 this would be the civil court if you 23 have a claim on the land and prove that 24 there was one there and that you ah 25 know the proper way.
1631 MCCABE: Right. 2 WRIGHT: Well that's white man's law. 3 MCCABE: Yeah. Uhm okay now you're you're you 4 were going to tell me what's going on 5 now. 6 WRIGHT: Well fuck right now they've got about 7 eight guys down at the bottom end of 8 the park where ah the roads turn and I 9 know you don't know the area but I'll 10 draw it for you so you'll see it. 11 MCCABE: Right. 12 WRIGHT: They've got about eight guys on the 13 edge of the road with bats in their 14 hand... 15 MCCABE: Baseball bats? 16 WRIGHT: Yeah and that's public that's ah county 17 road access so that's mischief you 18 can't use that road and they've trashed 19 a car that went by so we've got wilful 20 damage, we've got possession of a 21 weapon dangerous and we got four BRT 22 Teams and a TRU Team and two canine 23 units going down there to do battle... 24 right now. 25 MCCABE: Yeah alright well...
1641 WRIGHT: And we also have a number of irate 2 citizens who are down there ah I think 3 ah picketing and people from Kettle 4 Point themselves telling them to get 5 out of there. 6 MCCABE: Alright so that's... 7 WRIGHT: So we got a cluster down there now. 8 MCCABE: Okay so that's all informatio makes 9 some good notes on that and an and an 10 that's... 11 WRIGHT: That's right off the top of my head, I 12 don't need notes I I recall all of 13 that. 14 MCCABE: Well make sure you, you know make sure 15 you have it all tomorrow. 16 WRIGHT: Yeah. 17 MCCABE: Ready. 18 WRIGHT: Yeah yeah. 19 MCCABE: Okay and then the last thing when I was 20 talking to Inspector ah LINTON. 21 WRIGHT: CARSON? 22 MCCABE: Ah well LINTON. 23 WRIGHT: LINTON yeah. 24 MCCABE: A little while ago CARSON ah isn't 25 wasn't there but ah LINTON ah he agreed
1651 that if we were to fax our Notice of 2 Motion ah you know I mentioned it was 3 getting dark... 4 WRIGHT: Hmm hmm. 5 MCCABE: Ah you fellows may not want to... 6 WRIGHT: No no I know what he said no way not 7 now. 8 MCCABE: Ah well... 9 WRIGHT: We're going to we're going to war now, 10 we're not going to be sending anybody. 11 MCCABE: okay well... alright well he at that 12 time he said yes but I guess ah events 13 overtook the ah... 14 WRIGHT: Well we can try I mean we can try at 15 CFB Ipperwash at the front gate but 16 like... my my advice to the command 17 staff here is no way, how how are they 18 going to take that like I know we just 19 we just went to battle within and we 20 got ten of these guys in custody but 21 however by the way here's an injunction 22 piece of paper... 23 MCCABE: Yeah. 24 WRIGHT: Um unless fax it to us because they 25 might have the (I/A) to show up at our
1661 detachment and I can fire that at them. 2 MCCABE: Yeah I think you've probably already 3 got it... 4 WRIGHT: Okay. 5 MCCABE: We faxed we faxed it to you. You see 6 the point is ah in view of what you 7 tell me I don't think there's going to 8 be much problem with this. 9 WRIGHT: Okay. 10 MCCABE: But ah ah a Judge will go will will ask 11 well you, you know you noticied them... 12 WRIGHT: Yeah. 13 MCCABE: that this was going on this morning 14 didn't you... 15 WRIGHT: Yeah. 16 MCCABE: So if we could if we could say either 17 yes we did they were provided with 18 notice... 19 WRIGHT: Yeah. 20 MCCABE: Last night, or if we said we tried we 21 tried to give them notice last night 22 and they wouldn't listen they wouldn't 23 take the paper. 24 WRIGHT: Yeah. 25 MCCABE: You know.
1671 WRIGHT: Well we can give it a shot sure. 2 MCCABE: Yeah just you know so that you can say 3 that ah you know... 4 WRIGHT: Yeah. 5 MCCABE: There was a lot of activity last 6 night... 7 WRIGHT: Yeah. 8 MCCABE: We tried. 9 WRIGHT: Well, I'll tell you what, the best I 10 can do ah Tim if I may call you Tim... 11 MCCABE: Yeah. 12 WRIGHT: I I'll keep that in mind but I'm not 13 going to sacrifice personal safety and 14 I'm... 15 MCCABE: Oh no. 16 WRIGHT: Prepared to tell the Judge that, Judge 17 I would have done that three hours ago 18 but I'm not going to get one of my 19 officers ah... 20 MCCABE: Absolutely. 21 WRIGHT: You know wounded or injured or worse... 22 MCCABE: Absolutely. 23 WRIGHT: To make service, we can do that on the 24 paper or by the news... 25 MCCABE: Yeah.
1681 WRIGHT: That's that's a safer way to do it. 2 MCCABE: No ab absolutely not... 3 WRIGHT: Yeah. 4 MCCABE: Don't don't jeopardize anybody. 5 WRIGHT: No and you can count on me not doing 6 that. 7 MCCABE: Okay yeah I'm sure I can. 8 WRIGHT: Yeah. 9 MCCABE: And and ah then so the other thing you 10 want to say is ah you know ah if I ask 11 you the question, you can say ah well 12 we we would have last night in the 13 normal course... 14 WRIGHT: Yeah. 15 MCCABE: But in the circumstances it was just 16 impossible... 17 WRIGHT: That's right. 18 MCCABE: We would have jeopardized our officers' 19 safety. 20 WRIGHT: Yeah. 21 MCCABE: And and ah and then you can also 22 reiterate the point that they know dam 23 well that there is going to be ah ah... 24 WRIGHT: Yeah I I'll try Tim okay. 25 MCCABE: Even if you can tell at them you know
1691 we're in court tomorrow morning. 2 WRIGHT: Tomorrow morning, yeah, be here. Yeah 3 okay well we can give that a shot too. 4 MCCABE: (I/A) tomorrow morning. 5 WRIGHT: Yeah okay what time, what time 9:00? 6 MCCABE: We're in court at 9:00 up there. 7 WRIGHT: What time do you want to meet? 8 MCCABE: Ah ah meet ah... 9 WRIGHT: What time is it now, 9:00 o'clock yeah. 10 MCCABE: Ah well look if you can be there ah ah 11 you know 8:00 or or whenever... 12 WRIGHT: Well 8:00 would probably be good cause 13 we're going to need some time to go 14 over this quietly like... 15 MCCABE: Yeah. Yeah. 16 WRIGHT: I'm I'm to be honest with you, I'm 17 listening to you with one ear and doing 18 something else with the other. 19 MCCABE: Oh alright. 20 WRIGHT: Where do you want to meet at the 21 Crown's office/ 22 MCCABE: At the Crown Attorney's office, Don 23 VALE... 24 WRIGHT: Is he going to open the door for us? 25 MCCABE: Yeah, he's going to open the door for
1701 us at 8:00 o'clock. 2 WRIGHT: Alright okay. 3 MCCABE: And he's got a room for us. 4 WRIGHT: Okay. 5 MCCABE: We can go in there and talk. 6 WRIGHT: Okay okay and you I I don't need to 7 provide you specific names or anything 8 like that do you? 9 MCCABE: Well I've already got a list of mane. 10 WRIGHT: Okay. 11 MCCABE: Which is which is on our ah our title 12 of proceedings... 13 WRIGHT: Good. 14 MCCABE: We've listed about I don't know twenty 15 people or so. 16 WRIGHT: Good. 17 MCCABE: Yeah. 18 WRIGHT: So I don't have to regurgitate that 19 right? 20 MCCABE: I don't think so no. 21 WRIGHT: Okay well if I do you can ask me do you 22 know this person and I"ll just keep 23 saying yes cause... 24 MCCABE: That's right. 25 WRIGHT: I don't have I don't have didn't have
1711 the time to do that you can just I hope 2 you can appreciate what's going on here 3 and by the time I get done... 4 MCCABE: I can right. 5 WRIGHT: I'm going to be in no... 6 MCCABE: Yeah I can imagine. 7 WRIGHT: Go with I'm not going to forget 8 anything I've done here. 9 MCCABE: Alright okay. 10 WRIGHT: But I'll bring a map and you can hand 11 that to the good Judge if you want to 12 and he'll have an idea what the hell 13 we're talking about. 14 MCCABE: Right... excellent right on. 15 WRIGHT: Okay? 16 MCCABE: Alright see you in the morning. 17 WRIGHT: Okay. 18 MCCABE: Righto. 19 WRIGHT: Bye bye. 20 MCCABE: Bye bye. 21 END OF CONVERSATION 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1721 Q: When you were on the phone in that 2 call is -- was at 20 -- on the transcript is -- it's 3 20:18 although with the correction it may be 20:25. On 4 the front page of Exhibit P-463, it's identified as at 5 20:19. 6 But that call went on for quite some time, 7 approximately nineteen (19) minutes. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And during the period of time that 10 you were speaking to Tim McCabe, we heard you say during 11 the conversation you were keeping your ear -- one ear out 12 to what was going on behind you. 13 When you were on that call, do you recall 14 if 15 John Carson arrived back at the command post? 16 A: At -- at some time during that, my 17 recollection is he did. 18 Q: And did you overhear -- were you part 19 of a discussion at this point in time between John Carson 20 and Dale Linton? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And did you overhear -- could you 23 overhear the discussion between Dale Linton and John 24 Carson? 25 A: I don't recall hearing -- I recall
1731 them being there but I don't recall hearing -- as you can 2 tell there was a whole bunch of stuff going on in there 3 and I don't recall their conversation. 4 Q: And I wanted to ask you about a 5 number of the statements that you've made in this 6 transcript and the first one is at page 2 which is the 7 third page in of the material. 8 A: Page 2? 9 Q: At the bottom. You'll see it's -- at 10 the middle -- at the bottom right hand corner there's a 11 number, go in the next page... 12 A: Oh, I see, okay, pardon me. Page 2. 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: At the bottom. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you say: 18 "Thank you. At the land of Oz here, 19 well it's really -- the shit's coming 20 down right now." 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And why did you say, "at the land of 23 Oz here?" 24 A: Well, it was just a rather poor 25 attempt to try to convey to him that things were not
1741 normal, I guess, is the best way I can put it. 2 Q: And then on page 3, you tell Tim 3 McCabe: 4 "Well, we got major trouble right now." 5 Then a little farther down he asks: 6 "What's the problem." 7 And you say: 8 "Well, they're moving -- ah, they're 9 coming out for a fight down to the 10 road, so we've taken all of the marines 11 down now." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And on -- what you base this 14 statement to Tim McCabe, They're moving, they're coming 15 out for a fight down to the road? 16 A: Well, again, another poor 17 description, crude description on my part. But in any 18 event, what I meant was I was trying to give him a sense 19 of -- of what was taking place there, that there were a 20 number of individuals out on the roadway, a number of 21 them were armed and that we were -- 22 Q: By armed you mean they had bats or -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- axe handles or clubs, yes? 25 A: Sure, yeah. And that we were -- and
1751 I said we were taking -- taking, which is the incorrect 2 tense because we hadn't done that yet, but my -- my 3 feeling was that we were going to take a large number of 4 officers down there to deal with that issue. 5 Q: Okay. And at this point in time at 6 approximately 20:25 on the evening of September the 6th, 7 had a decision been made, to your understanding, to 8 actually deploy the ERT team, or the CMU, or large number 9 of officers down the road? 10 A: Had the deci -- no. 11 Q: And so when you say, So we've taken 12 all the marines down now -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- the -- as you just said, that was 15 -- it should have been 'we're taking'? 16 A: Yeah. I'm -- I'm editorializing 17 that. I mean, that was incorrect when I was telling him, 18 but I was -- I was trying to give him a sense of what was 19 going on at that particular time in the area. 20 Q: And it was your -- clearly, from what 21 you've said here, you anticipated that something was 22 going to happen? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And why was that? 25 A: Why did I anticipate something was
1761 going to happen? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Because of the knowledge I had as to 4 what took place since we'd been there. We'd had the -- 5 the confrontation with -- at four o'clock on September 6 the 4th at the end of the Matheson Drive road at the 7 lake. We'd had the confrontation with Korosec and the 8 damage to the cruisers at the initial take over. 9 We've -- we had damage to the cruisers on 10 the night of September the 5th when the officers went 11 down there to check the fire and -- and the damage to the 12 vehicles. And we had the, what I took to be a threat 13 delivered in my direction when I was down there with Marg 14 Eve. 15 And then I had just been down there in the 16 not to distant past where these individuals -- a number 17 of individuals had the bats in their hands, and in a 18 fairly threatening and intimidating nature were acting in 19 the way that I've described earlier. 20 So I -- I felt that the likelihood of a 21 confronta -- that there was a likelihood of a 22 confrontation if we took the officers down there. It's 23 not something that I wanted to happen, I was trying to -- 24 I was giving my -- my thoughts as to what I -- I thought 25 might happen, was likely to happen.
1771 Q: Isn't it far to say, Inspector 2 Wright, that the individual who came over to your car, 3 from what you understood he didn't recognize you as a 4 police officer, do you -- recognize you as a just a 5 person -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- presumably? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And he asked you to leave because it 10 wasn't, I think your words were, Part of your fight. 11 A: Yes. Right. Something like that. 12 Q: And he -- this individual is -- isn't 13 it fair to say, made no threat to you? 14 A: Made no threat to me? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: I disagree. 17 Q: Why do you disagree? 18 A: Well he was tapping a -- a bat or 19 something in his hand while he was talking to me, and I 20 asked him if I could go into the -- go over towards the 21 sandy parking lot and he told me, no, I couldn't. 22 Q: And -- and so that's what you took to 23 be the threat? 24 A: Right. Threat to -- threat to me. 25 Q: Yes.
1781 A: Right. 2 Q: Then you say to Tim McCabe: 3 "All the marines down now." 4 And what was the reference to marines? 5 A: Well the reference was to a -- a 6 large number of officers. You know, it was a -- I regret 7 that -- using that -- those particular words to describe 8 the situation and in hindsight had I an opportunity to do 9 that over again, I certainly wouldn't have used those 10 words. 11 But I didn't mean it in a literal sense 12 and thankfully Mr. McCabe didn't take it in a literal 13 sense. 14 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to 15 page -- you don't know, actually, how Mr. McCabe -- 16 A: Not at the -- no, not at the time. 17 Q: And when you say "not at the time" 18 what do you mean by -- 19 A: I certainly didn't feel -- well at 20 the time I certainly didn't feel -- I didn't expect that 21 Mr. McCabe took that literally, that we were going to 22 take 23 marines -- 24 Q: Oh, I see what you mean. 25 A: -- down. I -- I was using that as a
1791 poor description of -- of a situation that was escalating 2 and that we were going with it. But I certainly didn't 3 think that he took that in its literal sense. 4 But I appreciate that, you know, it was -- 5 it was inappropriate and a poor -- a poor use of some 6 words on my part. I regret that I -- I used those. 7 Q: And at page 15 in the paragraph where 8 you're describing what has happened and you indicate -- 9 it -- it says in the transcript and on the tape: 10 "They tried to block a part of 11 residents of public county land which 12 is running to the beach allowance and I 13 explained that -- where that is with 14 picnic tables." 15 Now the reference to residents, what was 16 that? 17 A: Well, I -- I -- that's again my -- I 18 don't think my -- my brain is moving faster than my 19 mouth, quite frankly, there. 20 I think what I meant was residential area, 21 you know, the sandy parking lot -- 22 Q: The sandy parking -- 23 A: -- adjacent to the residential area. 24 Q: And then if you could turn to page 25 18, at the top of the page there's a reference:
1801 "Yeah Christ, if that's like we were -- 2 if we have to give that out, okay, but 3 we had a report of automatic weapon 4 fire in the Park." 5 Now that's -- the report that you received 6 was automatic weapon fire in the Army Camp? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And so that you simply misspoke 9 yourself when -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- you told them that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it you -- you appear to be 14 reluctant to have this information be made public, and 15 why was that? 16 A: I -- that's right, I was reluctant to 17 give that out. My recollection is, and again I don't 18 know -- I'm familiar with retired Chief Superintendent 19 Coles as some of his evidence here at the Inquiry, so I 20 don't know if I've -- this is my recollection as a result 21 of him giving evidence, or at the time. 22 But I suspect it was at the time because 23 Coles made the point that we, you know, we have to be 24 careful about what is automatic and what is not automatic 25 and the fact that, you know, it's -- it's rather
1811 provocative information that because there was automatic 2 gunfire a way back in the camp somewhere, people may take 3 that poorly. 4 And so I was alive to that when McCabe 5 asked me this question, and that's why I answered the way 6 I did. 7 Q: And back on September 4th, 5th or 8 6th, did you speak directly to Chris Coles, 9 Superintendent Coles? 10 A: I remember him being there one day, 11 because I took a meeting while, I think -- 12 Q: That was -- 13 A: -- Inspector Carson -- okay. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And I think I had some -- like he -- 16 I think we had some conversation. I don't recall to what 17 extent and I don't know if I got that from Chief 18 Superintendent Coles or Chief Superintendent Coles told 19 Carson and Carson told me and/or the rest of us, I'm not 20 sure. 21 Q: Then at the bottom of that page, it 22 says, you're talking about what had happened that 23 evening, the evening of September 6th: 24 "And that's public -- that's our County 25 road access, so that -- so that's
1821 mischief. You can't use that road. 2 And they've trashed a car that went by 3 so we've got wilful damage, we've got 4 possession of weapon dangerous. And 5 we've got four (4) ERT teams and a TRU 6 team and two (2) K-9 units going down 7 there to do battle right now." 8 So again, they've trashed a car, what was 9 that a reference to? 10 A: That was in reference to the damage 11 to the -- the -- the man's vehicle that -- that Poole was 12 taking the statement from, that -- that's what's -- that 13 is what that is in reference to. 14 Q: But at that period of time, of this 15 time on September the 6th, what you knew was that a car 16 had been damaged by what you thought were some stones. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: But you had -- did you have any idea 19 how much damage had been done to that car? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Because -- would you agree with me 22 that there's a difference between someone throwing a rock 23 or rocks at a car and trashing a car? 24 A: Absolutely. 25 Q: And trashing a car seems to be, do
1831 you not agree, is a more serious matter with respect to 2 the car? 3 A: Well, I -- yes, I would agree with 4 that, in taking in the context that you and I are 5 discussing this right now. But when I was speaking with 6 Mr. McCabe I was very quickly trying to give him an 7 overview of what taken -- what had taken place because I 8 understood this to be a general review of the evidence 9 that I was expected to give the following morning, and I 10 wasn't giving a whole -- a great concern with respect to 11 the specific types of words I was using to describe what 12 was going on. 13 I was trying to give him an overall 14 picture to -- with some degree of accuracy as to what was 15 taking place there. 16 Q: Okay. But I have a question. Did 17 you use the phrase, 'Trash a car,' to Dale Linton when 18 you came back to the command post and told him what you 19 had been told on the way back from when you were at 20 Checkpoint D? 21 A: I don't remember. 22 Q: And then you say on the next page: 23 "We've got four (4) ERT teams and a TRU 24 team and two (2) K-9 units going down 25 there to do battle right now."
1841 A: Right. 2 Q: And, again, you appear to be telling 3 Mr. McCabe that this operation is underway. 4 A: That's what I appear to be doing, 5 yes, I agree with you. 6 Q: And was it underway? 7 A: No, it was not. I anticipated it to 8 be underway. 9 Q: But -- so why did you tell him that 10 they were going down there to do battle right now? 11 A: Well, right -- Linton and Carson are 12 having a conversation. All sorts of things are 13 happening. I'm listening to what's going on there. And 14 at some point I become aware, you know, I can't tell you 15 ten (10) years later at what point I become aware that 16 they're going to do -- or Inspector Carson has decided 17 what -- what it is he's going to do. 18 But clearly I'm of the opinion that this 19 is going to take -- what in fact did take place was going 20 to take place. 21 Q: But we've -- we've heard from 22 Inspector Carson that at this point in time he and Dale 23 Linton were discussing what to do. 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And no decision had been made, til
1851 some time later to deploy the Crowd Management Unit? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And not at this time? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And the reference to do battle, was 6 that another Military analogy? 7 A: Yes. A poor choice of words, again, 8 on my -- on my part. And right now, I didn't mean right 9 now as in this second. I meant in the totality of what 10 was going on there. 11 But again, I -- I don't take issue with 12 the fact that this may have been misinterpreted with -- 13 because of the poor way in which I explain this to Mr. 14 McCabe. 15 Q: The -- if I could take you back to 16 the top of the previous page, page 19, and there's a 17 reference of: 18 "They've made -- all they have done is 19 made comments that I've seen on the 20 news and read in the paper." 21 And then you go on to say what Mr. Manning 22 said to you. And can you recall today, and I know we 23 have hundreds of newspaper articles but can you tell -- 24 recall today what you read in the news or -- or heard on 25 the news or read in the paper about the -- what the
1861 people in the Park wanted? 2 A: I -- I can't recall today, no. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: I -- I do recall that I think the 5 Chief was on TV. 6 Q: And there's a reference -- 7 A: Chief Bressette but I don't remember 8 now what -- 9 Q: Fair enough. At page 20 there's a 10 reference, actually, to: 11 "A number of irate citizens who are 12 down there I think picketing and people 13 from Kettle Point themselves telling 14 them to get out of there." 15 And who's the reference with respect to, 16 the people from Kettle Point? 17 A: At 20:22 in the scribe notes -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- you'll see that there's reports of 20 Kettle Point people in a pickup truck -- pardon me, 21 pickup, who are opposed and have arrived. And as I 22 recall, they make their way down to the corner there. 23 Q: But that's -- whoever wrote that in 24 the -- did you speak to anyone -- the person in the blue 25 pickup truck, at that point?
1871 A: No. But I was referring to that 2 because that information is coming into the -- again, you 3 know, a -- a large amount of information is coming into 4 the command post. 5 And I'm trying to explain to Mr. McCabe 6 and give him a taste of what's going on here and -- and 7 the understanding of, potentially, what the evidence is, 8 I'm going to give the following -- yeah, the following 9 morning. The next morning. 10 Q: And then you indicate that: 11 "We also have a number of irate 12 citizens who are down there, I think, 13 picketing." 14 Now who's that reference to? 15 A: Well, that -- that's in reference to 16 the meeting that happened earlier that evening. And 17 again, I mean I'm trying to give him a broad view of 18 what's going on and I'm moving from tents to tents ) and 19 -- and listening to what's going on. 20 And I'm, you know, admittedly not doing a 21 very good job, and I can appreciate that both Mr. McCabe 22 and anybody else who would have heard this might have 23 taken that in its literal sense. 24 And that's my fault. 25 Q: And if -- because if you had been --
1881 you had hoped you'd been successful when you left the 2 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot all the people 3 had left. 4 A: Right. Well, I -- I was sure they 5 had left when I -- 6 Q: If you waited until they did. 7 A: Yeah, yeah. 8 Q: Now and you had no information, up to 9 that point, that a group of people had reassembled? 10 A: No. That's clearly -- that's in 11 reference to what I had dealt with earlier. There was -- 12 nothing happened after that with respect to any of the 13 cottagers or the people who lived down there. 14 Q: And then he talks to you about 15 service. And on page 21 you say: 16 "We're going to -- we're going to -- 17 we're going to war now, we're not going 18 to be serving anybody." 19 And that's another Military analogy. What 20 did you mean by that? 21 A: Similar to what I meant before. I 22 anticipated we were going to go to -- go down to the 23 sandy parking lot area and that there was a potential for 24 a confrontation. 25 Q: And then you go on:
1891 "Yes, well, I mean we can try at CFB at 2 the front -- Ipperwash at the front 3 gate, but like my advice to the command 4 staff here is, No way. How are they 5 going to take that? Like, I know we 6 just went to do battle within and we've 7 got ten (10) of these guys in custody 8 but however, by the way, here's an 9 injunction, piece of paper." 10 A: So now I'm moving into the future 11 tense in that, okay, so if -- if some -- I anticipate 12 something's going to happen and we may -- we take people 13 into custody, it's going to be very difficult to then go 14 back there and make notice, because one would expect that 15 the atmosphere would be such that that would exclude that 16 sort of thing to happen, because of -- for safety 17 purposes. 18 But I wasn't quite that eloquent when I 19 was speaking to Mr. McCabe. 20 Q: But your concern was, if there was a 21 confrontation, if you did arrest some people then it 22 would be difficult to go back to the front gate of the 23 Army Camp and say, oh, by the way, here we have the 24 injunction? 25 A: Right. And as the conversation goes,
1901 we moved back and forth to, No, that's not going to 2 happen. And you know, he provides some -- some 3 suggestions of -- of other ways to make service and I'm 4 open to those and, you know, yeah, sure, we'll try this 5 or yeah, we can try that and -- 6 Q: And you had -- 7 A: -- it ebb and flows back and forth 8 there. 9 Q: And in fact, you say on page 23 that 10 the "well, we can give it a shot, sure." I think he 11 wanted to -- -- still wanted you to give them some sort 12 of notice and you indicated you would try to give it a 13 shot? 14 A: Right. I was trying to portray to 15 Mr. McCabe that the situation was such, as I saw it now, 16 a potentially, in the immediate future, that things were 17 going to -- things were such that we wouldn't be able to 18 do that. 19 Q: But you might -- 20 A: But we might be able to, because who 21 knows what's going to happen. 22 Q: Then before we leave this area, I 23 wanted to ask you one (1) thing. The -- you've told us 24 this morning that you had told Stan Korosec -- ask -- 25 told Stan Korosec, who's the ERT team leader, to hold the
1911 people on the day shift -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- because we might need them? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And in the -- when you appear before 6 Justice Daudlin on September the 7th, you indicated to 7 him, and this is for the benefit of My Friends, Exhibit 8 P-737, Tab 55 of our materials at page 58: 9 "I radioed ahead my concern and the 10 Sergeant in charge of the briefing felt 11 it prudent to hold these officers, in 12 case we needed some more people." 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And the -- today what do you recall 15 happened? 16 A: I re -- I recall having a 17 conversation with Korosec in the area between the command 18 post and the garage. And I can't recall if the -- our 19 initial conversation, Korosec and I was over a -- a radio 20 or with respect to the holding back the day shift, or in 21 the parking lot for -- I just -- I can't recall which one 22 that is. 23 But I -- what I recall about the important 24 part of that, I guess, is that it was certainly me and I 25 take no issue with that, who held back the ERT team --
1921 the ERT teams. I'm not sure if I did that on the radio 2 or if I did that when I got there, but there's no doubt 3 that that was my call. 4 Q: And you -- you asked him to hold them 5 back? 6 A: Yes. And -- and just to eliminate 7 the further problem, potentially, is that I -- I talk 8 about deferring to Korosec when I spoke to His Honour at 9 the injunction. 10 And what I meant by that, as I recall, is 11 Stan may have said to me, Well, don't -- we got these 12 guys here don't you think this is a good idea that we 13 hold them. But I just want to make it clear that that 14 would have been my ultimate call. 15 I don't want to have it appear that I was 16 -- that responsibility was -- for that call was anybody 17 else's but mine. 18 Q: And at the time that you appear -- 19 you went the next day on the 7th, I think it was at nine 20 o'clock you appeared before Justice Daudlin? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: How -- how many hours had you been 23 up? 24 A: At least thirty (30) I think. 25 Q: Since -- since early the morning
1931 before? 2 A: Yes, and -- and the last time I had 3 sleep was only three (3) hours. So I was pretty 4 exhausted. 5 Q: That was the -- Commissioner, I don't 6 know this might be an appropriate time for lunch. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have to 8 eat some time. This is as a good time as any. Let's 9 break for lunch. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 12 adjourned until 1:45 p.m. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 12:32 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 1:47 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 afternoon. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 afternoon. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon,
1941 Inspector Wright. 2 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: After the phone call with Mr. McCabe, 6 what did you do next? 7 A: At some point I have a conversation 8 with Inspector Carson. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And I believe it's -- it's -- well, 11 it's after the conversation with Mr. McCabe. But part of 12 that conversation was with -- I wanted to tell him 13 exactly what it was -- was my -- what I saw down at the 14 Park that -- that -- earlier that evening. 15 So it's at that point -- it's in the 16 scribe notes here somewhere I believe, that I tell him 17 that there were approximately eight (8) individuals down 18 at the sandy parking lot and at least four (4) or five 19 (5) of them had, I think I used the terms "bats," in 20 their hands. 21 Q: Yes. And that was after he had come 22 back to the -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: In addition to what you told him on 25 the phone?
1951 A: Right. Before -- yes, prior to them 2 -- yes, correct. 3 Q: And there's a note at 20:41 hours: 4 "Stan Korosec. My team is dressed and 5 ready in rear of office." 6 Do you have any recollection today what 7 that refers to? 8 A: I have a -- yes, I have an idea what 9 that refers to. 10 Q: And what's your understanding of it? 11 A: I think that refers to the ERT 12 officers are now dressed in their CMU gear. 13 Q: And that's what your understanding 14 is? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And the -- at some point in time were 21 you present when there was a report of firearms? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what was the report of firearms 24 that you were present for? 25 A: The information that came back about
1961 numerous guns, there's a report of it in the scribe 2 notes, at -- 3 Q: Page 76? 4 A: yes, 75, 76. 20:43 hours and I 5 recall that information coming in. 6 Q: And what was the source of that 7 information? 8 A: The information is -- the source was 9 Detective Constable Mark Dew was down at Checkpoint 10 Charlie and he received that information and sent it up 11 through Sergeant Rob Graham. And Graham passed the 12 information on, I think, to those of us in the command 13 post. 14 Q: And the -- what, if anything -- what 15 was your reaction to this information, if any? 16 A: I don't recall my exact recollection, 17 but I'm sure it concerned me. 18 Q: And then there's a note at 20:46 and 19 there's a reference with respect to evacuating the 20 cottages and do you have a recollection today of the 21 discussion with respect to the cottages? 22 A: No, I don't recollect that 23 conversation. I -- I don't think that conversation was 24 with me. 25 Q: Okay. And there's a note:
1971 "Mark Wright spoke to cottagers 2 earlier. They're very upset." 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And who were you telling that to, 5 that -- 6 A: I -- 7 Q: -- was -- 8 A: To the Inspector Carson. I'm sure 9 I'm telling him what it -- the -- the -- what had taken 10 place earlier down at the TOC. 11 Q: Okay. And the TOC is the tactical 12 operations centre in the MNR parking lot. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And then there's a reference: 15 "John Carson. Are you certain if 16 someone is in kiosk, is any danger at 17 the corner? 18 Mark Wright. I bet my life it's okay 19 there. 20 John Carson. Okay. If that's the 21 case, let's use blueshirts at points 22 and approach the corner with the taupe 23 boat. Four (4) teams from both days." 24 A: Right. I recall that specific quote 25 about I bet my life on it, because I know that we'd had
1981 information that there was movement in the kiosk. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And there was a concern that if 4 somebody was armed in the kiosk, would they have line of 5 sight to the sandy -- sandy parking lot. And having been 6 down there the last couple of days with Mr. Kobayashi and 7 then Sergeant Eve, I knew that there was no line of sight 8 anywhere near that, because there was a bit of a dune 9 area there. 10 So that's why I -- I said what I did. 11 Q: And there were -- do you recall, were 12 there trees between the kiosk, the main gate, and the 13 sandy parking lot? 14 A: Yeah, you just -- you could not see 15 the kiosk from the sandy parking lot. 16 Q: Okay. And then do you recall a 17 discussion about using blueshirts? 18 A: I don't recall the specific 19 conversation, but I recall and it's my -- it was my 20 understanding that was -- that's when Inspector Carson 21 decided he was going to use the CMU. 22 Q: And what's the reference to 23 blueshirts, blueshirts? What was -- 24 A: Well, I think what he means there is 25 that he's going to -- he's -- he wants to use the uniform
1991 officers and the ERT teams. So I -- that may in -- he 2 used -- the outer perimeter or the inner -- I guess the 3 inner perimeter of that area he used with ERT officers 4 dressed in their uniform, their working road uniforms, 5 which we would commonly refer to as blueshirts, because 6 there were people with grey tactical uniforms on, there 7 were plain clothes Officers there, and then there were 8 Officers with just plain ordinary working day uniforms. 9 Q: And that was your understanding of 10 the term blueshirts? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And were you present when he had a 13 discussion with Kent Skinner? 14 A: I recall Skinner being there at some 15 point. And I remember them talking about -- and I don't 16 know if this is when this takes place, but I know -- I 17 know he talks about, I'm just using the notes here to 18 help me, but I was aware that he wanted Skinner to take a 19 team down or have a team go down and still have a look at 20 that kiosk area. 21 Regardless of what I had told him before, 22 he was just exercising due diligence I guess, or extra 23 caution with respect to that sight line. 24 Q: And there's a reference: 25 "John Carson. All we are doing is
2001 observation, we are not going tactical, 2 let's get that straight." 3 Were you present when that took -- 4 A: Yes, yes. 5 Q: And do you recall anything else that 6 Inspector Carson said with respect to that? 7 A: No, I recall he wanted -- he was 8 intent on knowing whether or not A) if we -- if the -- as 9 I recall, the -- this team that he was going to deploy or 10 have deployed, could see any movement in the kiosk, and 11 B) was there line of sight to the sandy parking lot. 12 Q: And the kiosk, at that time, were you 13 aware whether or not there was a camera in the -- 14 A: Yes, I was -- 15 Q: -- kiosk? 16 A: -- aware. I was aware there was a 17 camera. 18 Q: And then there's a note: 19 "Rob Graham reports the witness is able 20 to identify at least one (1) person." 21 And what -- do you recall what that refers 22 to? 23 A: I suspect that's -- we're going back 24 again yet to the damage to the vehicle. At some point I 25 -- I wanted that statement brought back to the command
2011 post. and I recall that they were going to relay it, 2 which means it's kind of like a -- one (1) officer takes 3 it so far, hands it off to another Officer, who hands -- 4 and it's a succession of police officers who may deliver, 5 in this instance a statement. 6 And I recall that I didn't want that done, 7 I didn't want it from hand to hand to hand, I want it 8 from the scene directly to the command post, and I 9 believe I told Rick, Detective Sergeant Richardson, to 10 have that done. 11 Q: And Mark Dew's statement is -- I 12 mean, not Mark Dew, the statement of Gerald George that 13 was taken by Constable Poole is Exhibit P-123, Inquiry 14 Document 200549, and it's on the desk, perhaps -- that's 15 not it, it's perhaps on top, yes. 16 A: Yes, it is, yes. 17 Q: And when do you recall -- do you 18 recall receiving Exhibit -- the statement -- Gerald 19 George statement on the evening of September the 6th? 20 A: I don't recall receiving it. 21 Q: And do you know if it was delivered 22 to -- excuse me, Inspector Linton? 23 A: It -- sir, it may have been delivered 24 to me, I -- I don't recall. 25 Q: And the -- we'll come back to that in
2021 a moment, but there's a reference, "Mark Wright reports 2 talking to members of the public at the TOC," and the TOC 3 really refers to the Tactical Operations Centre. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And that's what you've referred to 6 earlier, speaking to John Carson about what happened down 7 there? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And then: 10 "John Carson. We're using TRU to go in 11 and get an eye, if they're just having 12 a campfire let's leave them, why go in 13 the dark. 14 Stan Korosec. Five (5) by two (2) man 15 blue uniforms on route here for 16 checkpoints. 17 John Carson. Why don't Mark Wright 18 look at video to see if the kiosk is in 19 view. 20 Mark Wright. I see eight (8) people at 21 the corner and at least four (4) had 22 bats or something like that." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: That was the point I was making
2031 earlier. 2 Q: That you -- you told them that you 3 had -- you had been down there and that -- what was the 4 reference to video at this point? 5 A: I think Inspector Carson is still -- 6 although he's, I think, deployed, either has or is in the 7 midst of deploying that TRU to go and have a look -- TRU 8 officers to go and have a look about sight line. I think 9 he still wants me -- he wants me to have at a video of 10 some sort to see if that kiosk is still in view in 11 regards to sight lines. 12 I think he was trying to deal with that in 13 different ways. 14 Q: Okay. And were you present when John 15 Carson made a statement: 16 "We're using TRU to go in and get an 17 eye. If they're just having a 18 campfire, let's leave them. 19 Why go in the dark?" 20 A: Yeah, I recall that. 21 Q: And was there any other discussion 22 about that? 23 A: Not that I recall. 24 Q: And who was present when -- in 25 addition to yourself when he made that statement.
2041 A: I believe Skinner was there. 2 Q: Okay. And what about Dale Linton? 3 A: He may very well have been. And -- 4 and Korosec may have been as well. 5 Q: And then there's a note 20:57, page 6 76: 7 "Mark Wright. I spoke to Attorney 8 General lawyers and went over my 9 evidence. 10 John Carson. Okay. But I want to 11 speak to you about this. 12 John Carson and Mark Wright left to 13 speak about same." 14 And do you recall a discussion with John 15 Carson about your evidence for the next day at this 16 point? 17 A: I vaguely recall him talking to me 18 and it was -- I think it was a quick rundown of what it 19 was I told McCabe, as I can recall. 20 And I think he was trying to explain to me 21 his understanding of what he thought was going to -- what 22 I was in store for the next morning with respect to 23 giving evidence and what kind of an injunction it was. 24 Q: Do you recall anything more about 25 what kind of injunction it was?
2051 A: No. It didn't really concern me. 2 Q: And why didn't it concern you? 3 A: Because all that mattered to me was 4 that I was the person who was tasked to have to give 5 evidence, and I was going to go and give my evidence and 6 -- and a judge was going to make some sort of a decision. 7 I was naive -- still at this point -- with 8 respect to an injunction. I -- I didn't know that -- I 9 thought it was much like a warrant, that you went in and 10 you gave your evidence and either you got an injunction 11 or you didn't get an injunction. 12 And if you did, it gave you authority to 13 act -- it was a court order that you could act on. But I 14 didn't know that you would -- you could get one and it 15 would -- it would have limitations or -- that's a good 16 word "limitations" or whatever the judge decided was in 17 the best interest of that particular problem. 18 I had no idea that that's what might 19 happen until I got there. 20 Q: Until you got there the next day. 21 A: Yeah. Actually til after I was done 22 and I think it was Mr. Kobayashi came down and told me 23 about it was an interim injunction and that we couldn't 24 act on it. I think it was in or around that time. 25 But I was -- by that time I was pretty
2061 tired, so I'm not quite sure. 2 Q: And do you recall anything else about 3 that discussion with John Carson? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And John Carson testified that: 6 "I would have shared with Mark Wright 7 the fact that we need to just put 8 forward the facts as we know to make 9 sure he had all the facts and 10 understood all the circumstances so 11 they could be put forward in a fair 12 manner." 13 Does that assist your -- 14 A: That sounds what -- like I -- it 15 concurs with what I just said. 16 Q: Okay. Then there's a reference -- 17 can you -- after this discussion with John Carson, can 18 you tell us what you did next? 19 A: Not a whole lot really. I -- I was 20 kind of in the command post and I was listening to all 21 sorts of information coming in and things were moving 22 pretty fast right then. 23 At some point Lacroix showed up -- 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: -- and I recall Inspector Carson
2071 explaining to him what it was he wanted, and that, you 2 know, they were going to move a Crowd Management Unit 3 down the road to move those people back into the Park. 4 And -- and I recall, very clearly, 5 Inspector Carson telling Staff Sergeant Lacroix that no 6 way was he -- he was not to go into the Park, that the 7 fence line was -- was as far as he was going to go, was - 8 - he was to go. 9 Q: And where did this discussion take 10 place? 11 A: It happened right in the command 12 post. I recall it very clearly. 13 Q: And the -- and do you re -- the entry 14 -- there's an -- a reference to Wade Lacroix at 21:22 15 hours on September the 6th at page 77 of Exhibit 426. 16 Do you recall when he came? It was at -- 17 does that assist you when he may have arrived? 18 A: I -- I don't take any issue with that 19 -- that timing. 20 Q: And there's an indication as well, at 21 21:22: 22 "John Carson had indicated to Kent 23 Skinner and Dale Linton that John 24 Carson and Kent Skinner will go to the 25 TOC. Dale Linton to stay here re.
2081 trouble with comm. No cell, go over 2 information with ray -- Wade Lacroix." 3 And that's -- do you recall John Carson 4 indicated he and Kent Skinner would go to the -- down to 5 the TOC and Linton would stay? 6 A: Yeah. And then there was -- while 7 this was happening there was all sorts of information 8 coming in from the comms, from the checkpoint systems 9 that were down there, from the officers down there as 10 well. 11 Q: And do you recall what type of 12 information was coming in? 13 A: Well, it's -- I know there's times on 14 these -- for -- in the -- in the radio logs, but 15 certainly before CMU moved down the road, I recall quite 16 clearly that there were -- the concern was being -- was 17 growing with regards to what was taking place there. 18 There was -- the officers were talking 19 about seeing vehicles with the trunks opening up and 20 sticks or bats coming out of the trucks and much more -- 21 many more vehicles moving down to the area and -- 22 Q: The "area" being the Provincial Park? 23 A: The area being -- yeah, the 24 Provincial Park but towards the fen -- in the -- towards 25 the area of the fence.
2091 Q: Inside the Park? 2 A: Right. And twelve (12) -- 3 approximately twelve (12) individuals, I took to be First 4 Nations individuals, out onto the parking lot, the sandy 5 parking lot area. And in addition to that there was 6 comments by a number of the officers there, they were 7 growing quite concerned. 8 They moved back the -- one (1) of the 9 checkpoints because of the concern -- the officers felt 10 their -- their safety was at -- was -- was being 11 compromised. 12 And there was comments, you know, I can 13 recall somebody saying something about they were 14 expecting firebrands to be coming their way shortly and 15 that another officer talking about -- it's coming over 16 the air that he thought, and the quote was, I believe the 17 quote is, "Things are getting hanky," is the word he used 18 with respect to, you know, his feeling of being very 19 uncomfortable because of what he saw going on there. 20 Q: And the checkpoint that was being 21 referred to about being moved, where was that? Was that 22 checkpoint on Army Camp Road or East Parkway Drive? 23 A: I believe it's the East Parkway Drive 24 and it's the one closest to that intersection, because I 25 think they -- as -- my recollection is they -- they moved
2101 back so that that -- though, at least the first property 2 that was adjacent to the sandy parking lot was beyond the 3 -- where the OPP officers were. 4 Q: And when they -- your checkpoint 5 moved back, do you recall where it moved back to? 6 A: I don't know how far it moved back, 7 no. 8 Q: And we had heard from John Carson 9 that it moved back to the MNR -- near the MNR parking 10 lot. 11 A: I'm sure it did, if that's what he 12 said. 13 Q: Then there's a note as 21:01: 14 "Dale Linton advised comm. to have 15 roads closed." 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: I know that -- I thought that aft... 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: The information you just told us 22 about the officers at the checkpoint -- checkpoint A, the 23 officers -- the firebrand, the officers being concerned 24 this information -- 25 A: Right.
2111 Q: -- the cars moving into the Sandy 2 parking lot. 3 Did you learn that information on the 4 evening of September the 6th when you were in the Command 5 Post? 6 A: Yes, it would be coming in on the air 7 into the Command Post. 8 Q: Through the communications -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- on the -- on the -- 11 A: I believe -- yes, I believe I've read 12 those -- those documents. 13 Q: But, yeah, but what I'm trying to 14 understand, though, is the basis of your knowledge, the 15 transcripts of the communications that you've read since 16 September 6th -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- or the basis of your knowledge 19 having recalled that information from September the 6th? 20 A: Right. My recollection is that I was 21 -- I recall remembering that information on the night of 22 September the 6th. 23 Q: And that was information coming 24 through the communications part and then those of -- 25 A: That's my -- that's my recollection.
2121 Q: Okay. 2 A: Korosec and I were pretty close 3 together in that trailer for -- especially around this 4 part of the evening. And at one (1) point he's talking 5 to them, he talks to them about, you know, if you feel 6 you need to move back, then move back, and they -- they 7 come back -- they reply, Well, no, we're okay for right 8 now. That's my recollection as well. 9 And Stan and I were pretty close to each 10 other, because about this time things are moving where 11 really we become somewhat of a spectator within the 12 Command Post, really. 13 Q: At some time later? 14 A: Well right -- yeah, I mean once the 15 decision is made that they're going to move CMU and 16 Lacroix gets there and Skinner and Carson are going to 17 move towards the Tactical Centre down at the MNR parking 18 lot, my -- my part is a spectator as to what's going on. 19 Q: And when was your understanding of 20 the time when the decision was made to use the CMU? 21 A: Well, I think it's around -- as best 22 I can tell, is when Inspector Carson talks about, Okay, 23 if that's the case let's use the blueshirts at points and 24 approach the corners with the four (4) teams from both 25 base, but I may be wrong, and certainly that was
2131 Inspector Carson's decision, so -- 2 Q: But I'm just trying to find out what 3 your understanding of when the decision was made? And 4 that's your understanding at that point in time? 5 A: As -- yeah, that's the best -- to my 6 recollection, that's when I understood that was made. 7 Q: And when Wade Lacroix arrived he was 8 briefed in your presence by Inspector Carson about what 9 he was supposed to do? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that was go down the road to the 12 Sandy parking lot and have the people move back -- 13 A: Move -- move the people back into the 14 Park, and he was going to go obviously -- I mean, the CMU 15 as I'm sure you know now is -- also has an arrest team. 16 So I mean, when you go down there, move 17 the people back in the Park, if there are people 18 committing offences, obviously they were going to make 19 arrests. But certainly Staff Sergeant Lacroix was 20 certainly aware of the dynamics of that. 21 And -- and after that we went into the 22 backyard of the Forest Detachment, and I'll never forget 23 this, we were in the -- it was -- it was dark and he had 24 the Officers lined up there and Inspector Carson talked 25 to them for a moment, and Staff Sergeant Lacroix talked
2141 to them for a moment, and it was a very sobering moment. 2 Q: And do you recall what was said to 3 the Officers in -- at Forest Detachment? 4 A: Not specifically, but I remember 5 generally the conversation was about that this was, you 6 know, a very -- potentially going to be a very difficult 7 and -- and potentially dangerous situation. 8 Q: And who said that, Carson or Lacroix? 9 A: I think both of them had something to 10 say in that, and -- and it was just about -- this was, 11 you know, Lacroix was the man in charge, and this is -- 12 they were going to go down and they were going to do what 13 had to be done because of the situation that had 14 unfolded. 15 Q: And do you recall what was told to 16 the officers in the -- that were assembled outside the 17 detachment, about the situation -- 18 A: No, I don't -- 19 Q: -- down there, as you put it? 20 A: -- I don't remember specifics. I 21 just -- I -- I remember clearly looking at all these 22 officers that -- and I knew a lot of them, and I was 23 concerned about them. 24 Q: And do you recall anything that Wade 25 Lacroix said?
2151 A: No. 2 Q: Was there a discussion about 3 establishing a checkpoint in the sandy parking lot while 4 you were present? Or near the -- 5 A: A checkpoint? 6 Q: Yeah, or near the sandy parking lot? 7 A: No, I -- no. 8 Q: You don't? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Then there's a entry in your notebook 11 that -- at page 82. 12 A: What tab is that, sir? 13 Q: Your notebook is the little blue 14 binder. 15 A: Oh, yeah. 16 Q: The little blue book. 17 A: Yes, I have it, I have it. 18 Q: Or you can use your own version of 19 the notebook, it's -- 20 A: Well, it's -- 21 Q: It's your notebook. 22 A: Yes, it's just easier to follow the 23 numbering system, I think, this way. 24 Q: It's page 82. 25 A: Yes.
2161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And there's a note: 4 "Discussion with DS Richardson 5 regarding possible criminal charges. 6 They would be possession of weapons 7 dangerous to public, peace, to those 8 with weapons and mischief. 9 If possible, arrests would be make up - 10 - made of individuals before they 11 entered the Park." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And what's that refer to? 14 A: Well that meant if there -- if there 15 were arrests that were going to be made, it would be made 16 only up until the point where they entered the Park, and 17 once they entered the Park, nobody was going to go in the 18 Park. 19 Q: And the -- there's a note at 21:28 in 20 the scribe notes at page seventy -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- eight: 23 "Mark Wright: Let's arrest all for 24 mischief that are there." 25 A: Right.
2171 Q: And the -- and what's that refer to? 2 A: Well, I mean, they would be in -- the 3 individuals who were out on the road would be, in my 4 view, committing the offence of mischief as it -- as it 5 re -- with respect to the public property there. 6 But I think that's the scribe's point 7 system as far as a discussion about, you know, if -- if 8 there were offences that were taking place, that we would 9 arrest them. 10 Q: And the -- there's a number of 11 entries in -- at -- over the next little -- on this page 12 about reports on radio about the fence, traffic moving 13 around. 14 Were you -- did you learn that information 15 while you were at the command post? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then -- 18 A: The own -- I was out of the command - 19 - the only time I was out of the command post around this 20 time was when Lacroix and Carson, and I don't remember 21 where Inspector Linton was, frankly, but when they went 22 out and talked to the CMU unit behind Forest Detachment, 23 I went out with them and then I went back in the command 24 post, and I didn't leave. 25 Q: And how long did that session out in
2181 the -- behind the command post -- 2 A: Maybe fifteen (15) minutes. 3 Q: Then there's a note, 21:43: 4 "Mark Wright. I'm going to use the 5 garage for the use of bull pen." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And what was that for? 8 A: Well, that's in anticipate -- we're 9 going to -- we were going to use the garage in 10 anticipation of -- if we were going to arrest people, 11 that's where we were going to process them in the -- in 12 the garage area of Forest Detachment. 13 Q: And then there's a note: 14 "Dale Linton call Superintendent Parkin 15 at resident two (2) hours ago citizens 16 were there and irate after leaving. 17 One (1) vehicle was damaged by natives 18 with bats. TRU activated, and possible 19 firearms." 20 Did you hear this -- at least one (1) end 21 of the -- the Linton end of the conversation with 22 Superintendent Parkin, do you recall? 23 A: No, I don't recall that. I don't 24 recall. 25 Q: Then there's a note that:
2191 "Mark Wright sending another St. John 2 Ambulance to TOC. Dale Linton 3 continuing telephone discussion 4 regarding evacuation." 5 And was there a discussion about 6 evacuating the cottages, that you recall? 7 A: Eventual -- well, first of all, with 8 respect to that St. John's Ambulance, I wouldn't have 9 done that unilaterally, I would have been told to send 10 the ambulance wherever it was -- it was being sent to the 11 TOC. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And I know at one point Inspector 14 Carson's down at the TOC and he makes a call to me to 15 find out about whether or not the house adjacent to the 16 sandy parking lot was evacuated. 17 But I don't remember any conversation with 18 respect to evacuation at the time and -- and I know that 19 because of my being refreshed by listening to that 20 conversation. 21 Q: And there's a note: 22 "Instruction to remain in common -- 23 command post with Inspector Linton." 24 And the next note is at the top of page -- 25 the next page 83, 21:43, there's a time, but -- who gave
2201 you the instruction to stay in the command post with 2 Inspector Linton? 3 A: I'm sure it would have been Inspector 4 Carson. 5 Q: Okay. And do you re -- that was 6 given before Inspector Carson left? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Then there's a note on the next page, 9 22:12, page 79 of the scribe notes: 10 "Mark Wright advised Sarnia jail has 11 one (1) full wing for Natives. One (1) 12 prisoner van available for twelve (12) 13 people at a time.' 14 And what's that refer to? 15 A: That's just, again, contingency 16 planning. I don't know if I did that on my own but, in 17 any event, we called the Sarnia jail, or I guess I called 18 the Sarnia jail to see, in the event we made a large 19 number of arrests, was Sarnia jail in a position to house 20 those people. 21 Q: Okay. And at -- if you would please 22 turn to Tab 41 and this is a conversation between you and 23 John Carson. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW)
2211 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 2 3 September 6, 1995 4 TIME: 22:34:54 hours 5 Track 1.wav 6 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN. 7 CARSON: Yeah this is Inspector CARSON here 8 (static) (I/A) please. 9 PETERMAN: Ah I can hardly read you, who are you 10 asking... 11 CARSON: It's Inspector CARSON here, is Mark WRIGHT 12 there? 13 PETERMAN: Yeah hold on. 14 WRIGHT: Yeah John. 15 CARSON: Yeah is ah did we hear back ah on who 16 lives in that house on the corner or if they're if 17 they had a phone number in there? 18 WRIGHT: Yeah I think ah Inspector LINTON was 19 talking to the guy in the house... 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 (background talking...no I found out who is he) 22 WRIGHT: No he found out who he is but we have... 23 (background...I got his name but he's not home) 24 WRIGHT: We found out who he is but he's not home. 25 CARSON: Okay so there's nobody home...are you sure
2221 of that? 2 WRIGHT: Yeah and... 3 (I/A background talking) 4 WRIGHT: We got his...are you still there John? 5 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 6 WRIGHT: Yeah we got his name, his number and he's 7 not there. 8 CARSON: Okay okay okay. 9 WRIGHT: Okay. 10 CARSON: Okay so okay that's good, thanks. 11 WRIGHT: Okay hang in there brother. 12 CARSON: Okay thank you. 13 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 14 CARSON: See you. 15 16 End of conversation. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDES) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And that, Commissioner, is Tab 55 of 22 Exhibit P-444B. And the time on that call is 22:34:54 23 and it -- there's approx -- it may have seven (7) minutes 24 added to it. 25 But there's a reference on the scribe
2231 notes at Tab 79, Inspector Wright, the 22:31: 2 "Dale Linton attempted to call 3 Hannahson residence, no answer." 4 And do you know who -- whose house was the 5 house on the corner that John Carson was referring to? 6 A: Who -- who lived there? 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: No. I don't -- I don't recall their 9 name. I may have back then but I -- I don't recall now. 10 Q: Then the -- CMU started down the road 11 at approximately 10:27? 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: And if you could -- you have on your 14 right, there's a copy of a transcript, it's Exhibit P- 15 438. And during a period of time that the Crowd 16 Management -- I -- I may have said TRU but I meant Crowd 17 Management Unit, started down the road, what were you 18 doing? 19 A: I was in the command post listening 20 to the events unfold on the radio. 21 Q: And the -- so that -- and who was in 22 the command post with you? 23 A: Korosec was there -- Sergeant Korosec 24 was there and Sergeant Cousineau was there, and I don't 25 recall Inspector -- I don't have a memory of Inspector
2241 Linton. 2 Q: You have a memory of Sergeant 3 Cousineau and -- 4 A: We were standing right beside -- I 5 remember standing right beside Stan Korosec, leaning up 6 against the -- the one wall and Cousineau sitting down in 7 the chair in front of the -- in front of the 8 communications equipment. 9 Q: And you could hear the communication 10 between the members of the CMU over the communications? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And the -- when did you learn that 13 there had been a confrontation? Was it through the 14 communications? 15 A: At the moment it was happening 16 through the communications, yeah. 17 Q: And at one (1) point there was a 18 discussion about ambulances, during the period of time -- 19 A: Whilst -- while they were marching 20 down there? 21 Q: Or towards the end. Do you recall 22 that? 23 A: I recall us getting involved with 24 ambulances later on, but -- 25 Q: No, that's what I'm talking about,
2251 around eleven o'clock. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Or -- 4 A: Immediately -- 5 Q: 23:00 hours. 6 A: Yeah, okay. 7 Q: And can you tell -- tell the 8 Commissioner what you recall as to what went on and what 9 you were doing at -- about the ambulances, what prompted 10 it, and in your own words, before -- we're going to 11 listen to another tape, but I would like you to tell us 12 what you recall. 13 A: Okay. I think I know what you're 14 after. There was gun play in the air, you could hear 15 shots exchanged or you could hear shots, I guess, would 16 be the most accurate way of putting it. And you could 17 hear Lacroix talking that we've been -- I think it was, 18 we -- we took fire from the car -- from a car and a bus. 19 In any event, it became clear that there 20 was some gun play and that a car and a bus had come out 21 and a number of the officers had been injured. And it 22 also appeared that these vehicles had tried to 23 deliberately run over some of these officers, the ERT -- 24 the CMU team, as they left the scene. 25 I don't know if I want me to go into the
2261 details that happened there. 2 Q: Well, but I want -- did you pick this 3 up through the -- through listening to this -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- type of communications? 6 A: Yes, yeah. 7 Q: And we've listened to that before, 8 but what did you -- tell us what you learned -- what you 9 recall learning from listening to the communications. 10 A: Starting where? 11 Q: Starting at the beginning. 12 A: Oh, okay. As I recall, CMU moved 13 down the road and as they walked onto the -- onto the 14 sandy parking lot, and there were TRU on -- TRU team 15 officers on the flanks of the CMU team. 16 And once they got onto the sandy parking 17 lot area, there was a report of what appeared to be 18 somebody with a gun that had come from the park area. 19 So Lacroix split the team and they went 20 down on a knee, and a TRU team officer went and had a 21 look and he said that it was a person with a stick and 22 not a gun. 23 So Lacroix put the CMU team together and 24 my recollection is there were a number of people out in 25 the Park area in -- on the sandy parking lot area and
2271 Lacroix moved the team to the fence line. 2 And the people went back into the Park. 3 And prior to them coming down -- no. So that's -- that's 4 where they were and then Lacroix made some kind of 5 statement about, What do you want me to do, or something 6 like that. And Carson clear -- he was totally told -- he 7 was clearly told by Inspector Carson, Don't go any 8 further and back up and take a defensive position, so he 9 did. 10 And then my recollection is that they were 11 standing there and a number of objects began coming over 12 the fence and were hitting the officers. They were 13 taking firebrands and that kind of stuff. 14 And there was -- and I -- I know that 15 there were lights flashed at the officers. But I don't 16 recall if I heard that from here or I learned that after. 17 And I just don't remember that particular part with that 18 exact clarity. 19 But in any event, they -- they'd moved 20 back and then, from what I gathered, individuals came 21 back out of the Park -- out of the Park and back onto the 22 sandy parking lot. 23 And then I recall Lacroix issuing an or -- 24 I think it was, 'punch' or 'punch out' or something along 25 that line. I haven't looked at this, I'm going totally
2281 from memory here, but that was my recollection. He said 2 something and they engaged in -- they engaged with the 3 people who had come -- who were now in the sandy parking 4 lot. 5 And at some point -- I don't think I knew 6 that they had taken a prisoner at that point. Sometime 7 later I became aware that they took a prisoner. But I 8 don't recall that. 9 And -- but I do recall the next thing is 10 that he's starting to move out where there's people. And 11 my feeling was he had moved the people back into the Park 12 and he was now leaving the area. They were going to 13 march out of there and back to the MNR parking lot. 14 And once they got off -- off of the sandy 15 parking lot and around the roadway, a bus and a car came 16 through the -- the Park area. And I don't know if I knew 17 that exactly at that moment but I certainly recall the -- 18 and I'll never forget it, the exchange about, you know, 19 you could -- you could hear Lacroix screaming at his 20 people and you could hear the pop, pop, pop of what was 21 gunfire. 22 And I was just -- I remember being 23 astonished, I just -- I couldn't believe that. I 24 remember hearing that and thinking well it's got to -- 25 that's got to be gunfire and not believing that that
2291 could possibly be what was happening there. 2 And, you know, you could hear Lacroix 3 telling them to get behind the prisoner van and form up 4 and my -- my -- I remember thinking well we -- we don't 5 even know -- do we even know we have all our people and 6 you could hear some officers yelling, as I recall, 7 through the calms. 8 And it was just pandemonium down there, 9 from what I heard. And -- and again, you know, I can't 10 understate the fact that, frankly, I'm sure I was in, you 11 know, somewhat of a state of shock hearing this. 12 It was -- it was, you know, it was the 13 most dreadful experience in my entire life. And I 14 wouldn't want anybody to ever have to relive or have to 15 go through something like that, it was -- it was 16 terrible. 17 And it was going to get worse based on 18 what I learned later on, in terms of consequences that 19 were about to come, but of course I had no idea about 20 that. 21 In any event, Lacroix starts to move back 22 with his people and we don't know if any of our people 23 are hurt and we don't know -- I don't know much about 24 anything other than there was a real clash there. 25 But I do know that there was a bus and a
2301 car and there was gunfire from a bus and a car and they 2 returned gun -- they returned fire into a bus and a car. 3 And that the officers were -- there was an 4 attempt to run these officers over. And that becomes 5 important later on with respect to an arrest that goes on 6 later on. 7 But in any event, that was that, and then 8 it -- it appeared that nobody had been hurt and then 9 shortly thereafter we start getting calls into the Comm 10 Centre about ambulances. 11 And I remember the -- the first call as I 12 -- my recollection is, and again, I'm not looking at 13 everything here, but my first recollection is that 14 there's a call about a 9-1-1 address. 15 And there's great confusion amongst 16 Sergeant Cousineau and myself and Stan Korosec about 17 where is this place and -- and whoever is on the other 18 end of the phone that Cousineau is talking about, because 19 somebody's been shot, I think it was one (1) person's 20 been shot, and -- and they need an ambulance. 21 And you can hear me in the background 22 saying, Well, we've got to go wherever that -- we've got 23 to go wherever that ambulance is, where's -- and we 24 couldn't find the 911 address. 25 And at some point we -- we figured out
2311 that that number can't be the right number, because it's 2 nowhere near the map. And then we get an additional call 3 about the 9-1-1 number being in Ipperwash Provincial 4 Park. 5 And then we're trying to move ambulances. 6 There are a number of ambulances going a number of 7 different directions and -- I don't know if you want me 8 to continue -- 9 Q: Sure. Yeah. 10 A: -- going or? 11 Q: No, carry on. 12 A: And then at some point we become -- I 13 become aware that there's a request -- at some point I 14 become aware that there's -- there's two (2) people have 15 been shot, at least two (2) people have been shot, so 16 there's two (2) ambulances that are required and I'm a 17 little -- and I think they want one (1) up at Ipperwash 18 Provincial -- one (1) at CFB Ipperwash, or one (1) at 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 20 And I have a recollection of actually 21 talking to the ambulance person saying, We're not going 22 to send -- because they wanted an ambulance to go into 23 the Park, and -- and I have a recollection of actually 24 talking to that ambulance person and saying, No, we're -- 25 we're not going into the Park with you, we've just been
2321 in an exchange of gunfire, or something like that, and 2 that it's not safe for our Officers. 3 And I'm paraphrasing here, but you know, 4 and we can't guarantee your safety either, have them come 5 out and put him in the ambulance and we will escort you 6 to the hospital. 7 But there appears to be no tape to that, 8 and I was always under the impression that I actually had 9 a conversation with an individual. But again, things 10 were pretty hectic down there, and I think you can hear 11 me on the -- in the background saying something like, 12 Well, we're not, you know, certainly at CFB Ipperwash, is 13 bring the individual out and we'll escort that wounded 14 party. And that's what happens. 15 So that's my recollection of the -- the 16 episode with the ambulances. But it was -- it was chaos, 17 and -- and we were trying to -- I was trying to do the 18 best I could in a very difficult situation, and I was 19 very concerned, extremely concerned while I was doing 20 this about the welfare of our Officers, because I didn't 21 know who -- who was hurt. 22 Q: And at some point during this period 23 of time you had a conversation with Inspector Carson; do 24 you recall? Shortly after 11:00? 25 A: Yes, I did have a conversation with,
2331 I suspect it would be helpful to go to the notes, but -- 2 Q: And -- 3 A: -- it was -- 4 Q: -- page 80 there's an indication at 5 23:14, John Carson requests Barrie ERT and fifty (50) 6 people. And -- but if I could take you to Tab 43 for a 7 moment please. And this is -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- Tab 57 from Exhibit P-444B. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 14 15 September 6, 1995 16 TIME: 23:09:32 hours 17 Track 1.wav 18 19 PETERMAN: PETERMAN. 20 CARSON: Yeah Rose, John CARSON here, Dale please. 21 PETERMAN: Yeah just a minute. 22 (background...I'll take it) 23 PETERMAN: (It's for the Inspector.) 24 (Background...yeah I know) 25 WRIGHT: It's Mark.
2341 CARSON: Yeah Mark. 2 WRIGHT: Yeah he's on the he's on a call to ah 3 PARKIN to get another T.R.U down. 4 CARSON: Okay the other thing is, tell him to ah 5 talk to Tony I want fifty more men by 6 daylight. 7 WRIGHT: Fifty...5-0? 8 CARSON: 5-0 and I don't care if they're E.R.T., 9 Green or whatever colour. 10 WRIGHT: I got it. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 WRIGHT: I got it. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 WRIGHT: Are we okay did anybody our our guys okay? 15 CARSON: I think we're all okay. 16 WRIGHT: Okay. 17 CARSON: I think we're all okay they're they're 18 just coming back ah in a minute here but I 19 think we're okay but...I think. 20 WRIGHT: Good. 21 CARSON: One of them are shot. 22 WRIGHT: Okay, well we just got a report of two 23 people shot at 9780 Army Camp Road the 91, 24 911 but it's a cluster fuck there's no 25 such thing as far as I can tell...
2351 CARSON: Okay. 2 WRIGHT: But can we I don't know if you're in a 3 position to check, 9780 Army Camp Road. 4 CARSON: Well you'll have to check with Del ah... 5 WRIGHT: Delta or whatever they are. 6 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 7 WRIGHT: Okay we'll do that through here? 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 WRIGHT: Okay I got it, I'll get back to you okay? 10 CARSON: I yeah I'm on my cell okay? 11 WRIGHT: Okay I got it. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 14 CARSON: Thanks. 15 16 End of conversation. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And that was Inspector Carson on the 22 line with you? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Now, Commissioner, there's a document 25 that -- and it's actually quite a long series of
2361 telephone -- it's a long telephone conversation and it's 2 actually between Sergeant Cousineau and a number of the 3 ambulance individuals, or at least one (1) ambulance 4 individual. 5 And it's -- there's actually three (3) 6 calls we're going to hear and it's in a series. It's in 7 Inquiry Document 200604. And what we're more inter -- 8 what I'm most interested in is what you can hear in the 9 background. 10 And you can hear Inspector Wright, you can 11 hear Inspector Linton, you can hear some others in the 12 background. At least one of these calls or two (2) of 13 them were played and it's on the April 20th, 2005 and are 14 part of Exhibit P-347. 15 But in most cases the -- in that Exhibit 16 P-347, the background has been -- the background isn't 17 recorded in the transcript, whereas in this transcript it 18 is. And it is about nineteen (19) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 20 it at? 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And it starts at Tab 42 and you might 24 go to that, Inspector Wright. And at the end I will be 25 asking for -- it's pages 73 to 101.
2371 And although there's not a time on these 2 particular transcripts, the first transcript, we believe, 3 based on what we know, is at 22:59 and the second one 4 starts at, I think it's 23:02, or on Exhibit P-347 it 5 says 23:00. 6 But you will hear on this -- you will hear 7 -- I believe you will hear voices from the CMU as well 8 when we're listening to this particular tape. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 (dialing of phone...ringing in) 13 14 NORM: OPP Chatham, can I help you? 15 COUSINEAU: Norm I want to take take to Dave. 16 NORM: Okay hold on. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And this appears to be a conversation 22 between Sergeant Cousineau and somebody at the Chatham 23 OPP. 24 A: I believe that's Sergeant Dave 25 Tewksbury.
2381 Q: And -- at the Chatham OPP? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 5 6 COUSINEAU: You got send ah (background...how many 7 ambulances) 8 (background radio transmissions) 9 (background...send at least two) 10 COUSINEAU: Send two ambulances down, okay I'll give 11 you directions. They got to go to the 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: I'm going to start again, 17 Commissioner, I'm sorry. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 20 21 dialing of phone...ringing in) 22 23 NORM: OPP Chatham, can I help you? 24 COUSINEAU: Norm I want to take take to Dave. 25 NORM: Okay hold on.
2391 TEWKSBURY: Yeah. 2 COUSINEAU: Dave... 3 TEWKSGBURY: Yeah. 4 COUSINEAU: You got send ah (background...how many 5 ambulances) 6 (background radio transmissions) 7 (background...send at least two) 8 COUSINEAU: Send two ambulances down, okay I'll give 9 you directions. They got to go to the ah 10 parking area number one 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: I would like you to listen because I 16 believe it's not coming clearly over this system, but I 17 believe the -- someone said -- said send at least two 18 (2), and it had been my understanding, from listening to 19 this, that that was your voice, but I can't hear it right 20 now. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 23 24 (dialing of phone...ringing in) 25
2401 NORM: OPP Chatham, can I help you? 2 COUSINEAU: Norm I want to take take to Dave. 3 NORM: Okay hold on. 4 TEWKSBURY: Yeah. 5 COUSINEAU: Dave... 6 TEWKSBURY: Yeah. 7 COUSINEAU: You got send ah (background...how many 8 ambulances) 9 (background radio transmissions) 10 (background...send at least two) 11 COUSINEAU: Send two ambulances down, okay I'll give 12 you directions. They got to go to the ah 13 parking area number one just off ah 14 Parkway Drive, Ippperwash Beach. They 15 have to come in ah on Ipperwash Road and 16 stay away from Army Camp Road. 17 (background radio communications...that's 10-4 ah do you 18 want to...) 19 TEWKSBURY: Okay. 20 COUSINEAU: They have to come in the back way. 21 (background radio communications...yeah okay I think we 22 got an ambulance here already I I just got to find out 23 where to send it) 24 TEWKSBURY: Yes. 25 COUSINEAU: Okay. Well get the two rolling anyways
2411 TEWKSBURY: Is it not easier for to do it direct out 2 Bob, I'm not questioning but... 3 COUSINEAU: Okay what just give me a number. I don't 4 have a direct line. 5 (inaudible background radio communications) 6 TEWKSBURY: Okay. (Give me a number for ah Sarnia 7 Ambulance Lampton quick) 8 (inaudible background radio communications) 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And the person in the background 14 yelling, I want a count, is Wade Lacroix? 15 A: Right, it's just -- this is right 16 immediately after the exchange of gunfire, immediately. 17 Q: Immediately after you've heard the 18 shots? 19 A: Yeah. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 22 23 TEWKSBURY: Okay. (Give me a number for ah Sarnia 24 Ambulance Lampton quick) 25 (inaudible background radio communications)
2421 (background...well we can't fucking not go in now, not 2 after they fucking shot at us) 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And that sounds like you? 8 A: It does -- 9 Q: And -- 10 A: -- I'd say that's me. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I -- I think that's me, yes. 13 Q: And you're heard in the background, 14 you can hear the -- Wade Lacroix saying, we've got to 15 form up now, or form up now, words to that affect, it 16 doesn't come very clear, and it's not in the transcript. 17 Then: 18 "Well we can't fucking not go in now, 19 not after they fucking shot at us." 20 And that is, I believe, you? 21 A: Yeah -- yes, I just -- I don't think 22 that's -- not go is a double negative, I think -- I mean, 23 we can't not go is a double negative, I'm sure what I 24 meant was we can't go in there after they've shot at us, 25 and once again, I apologize for -- to each and every one
2431 here for my profanity, but that is -- 2 Q: Sorry -- 3 A: I was just going to say, that was a 4 very -- it was a very stressful situation, to say the 5 least. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 8 9 TEWKSBURY: Okay. (Give me a number for ah Sarnia 10 Ambulance Lampton quick) 11 (inaudible background radio communications) 12 (background...well we can't fucking not go in now, not 13 after they fucking shot at us) 14 TWEKESBURY: Yeah are they going to come from Strathroy 15 or Sarnia? 16 COUSINEAU: I have no idea, it's up to C.I.C.C. to 17 decide. 18 TEWKSBURY: 337-2318. 19 COUSINEAU: 337... 20 TEWKSBURY: Yeah, 2318. 21 COUSINEAU: 2318. 22 TEWKSBURY: Cause directions are going to get screwed 23 up. 24 COUSINEAU: Yeah alright I'll call bye. 25 TEWKSBURY: Thank you bye.
2441 END OF CONVERSATION 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And then we're moving to the second 7 call. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 10 11 (dialing of phone...ringing in) 12 13 AMBULANCE: Ambulance 2307. 14 COUSINEAU: Hi it's ah Ontario Provincial Police in 15 Forest calling. 16 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 17 COUSINEAU: Ah with the incident going on in 18 Ipperwash. 19 AMBULANCE: Right. 20 COUSINEAU: We need ah two ambulances dispatched to 21 our location... 22 (inaudible background 23 AMBULANCE: Two, where do you want them at? 24 COUSINEAU: Okay what they have to do is they have to 25 come in ah off 21 Highway to go in down
2451 Ipperwash Road. 2 AMBULANCE: Okay they're at your checkpoint now up on 3 ah Ipperwash Road. 4 COUSINEAU: Do you have comms with them? 5 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 6 COUSINEAU: Okay can you check with them to see if 7 they need anymore cause they've asked for 8 two ambulances. 9 (background...(I/A) ambulance is on their way) 10 AMBULANCE: They've asked for two and that's all... 11 COUSINEAU: Our guys have asked for two and... 12 AMBULANCE: Okay at that checkpoint or where do you 13 want them? 14 COUSINEAU: Well do you have comms with your guys? 15 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 16 COUSINEAU: Have...find out where they are... 17 AMBULANCE: Yeah, okay. 18 COUSINEAU: Okay. 19 (background communication...Okay ambulance don't send the 20 ambulance forward) 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Do you recognize that voice?
2461 A: Could you do that again, that one 2 little part? 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 5 6 COUSINEAU: Well do you have comms with your guys? 7 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 8 COUSINEAU: Have...find out where they are... 9 AMBULANCE: Yeah, okay. 10 COUSINEAU: Okay. 11 (background communication...Okay ambulance don't send the 12 ambulance forward) 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 15 16 THE WITNESS: I can offer a suggestion. 17 I think that's Sergeant Slack, I think. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And Sergeant Slack was down by -- 21 where was Sergeant Slack at the -- 22 A: I -- I don't know but I'm just -- I 23 know him and it sounds like his voice. 24 Q: So it wasn't someone in the command 25 post? So what we're doing -- what the communications
2471 tape is picking up now is communications from a number of 2 different areas? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: We heard earlier on it appeared in 5 this conversation as well, appeared to hear in the 6 background Wade Lacroix? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Down on East Parkway Drive. 9 A: Right. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 (background communication...we got it it's right at (I/A) 14 Point) 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: I'm going to play that again, 20 Inspector. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 23 24 (background communication...Okay ambulance don't send the 25 ambulance forward)
2481 (background communication...we got it it's right at (I/A) 2 Point) 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: So you can't recognize it other than 8 you think it might be -- 9 A: That's a guess. 10 Q: And what about you? 11 A: No, that's not -- I don't think 12 that's me. 13 Q: Okay. What about Kent Skinner? 14 A: Doesn't sound like him, but I -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- could be wrong. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 19 20 (inaudible background talking) 21 COUSINEAU: (background...So do I, who are we talking 22 to?) 23 (background radio communications...1146 call (I/A) 24 (background radio comm...1146) 25 (background radio comm...1146 ah are either of you moving
2491 at this time?) 2 (background radio comm...ah that's (I/A) position here we 3 could be transporting) 4 AMBULANCE: You want two of them there? 5 COUSINEAU: Okay how many do you have? 6 AMBULANCE: There's two of them up there... 7 COUSINEAU: They already have two ambulances there and 8 you have what? 9 AMBULANCE: The one is on scene now... 10 COUSINEAU: One is on scene. 11 AMBULANCE: And ah...we're just trying to find 12 out whether they're both going to be 13 transporting or not. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And the person in the background: 19 "You can hear gunfire from a car, 20 returned fire." 21 Do you recognize that voice? 22 A: Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 25
2501 COUSINEAU: Okay. 2 AMBULANCE: You need the two (2) of them there. 3 COUSINEAU: Well yeah..okay what what initially what 4 we got was the information was get two 5 ambulances here, okay, we didn't know 6 where they were we had an idea that they 7 were down at our TOC van.... 8 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 9 COUSINEAU: So you have two on scene? 10 AMBULANCE: Yeah they're... 11 COUSINEAU: Okay. 12 AMBULANCE: Checking (I/A) there now apparently. 13 COUSINEAU: Right okay that's why we're calling. 14 AMBULANCE: Okay. 15 COUSINEAU: ah just make sure that ah... 16 AMBULANCE: Okay you're ah...this is who? 17 COUSINEAU: This is Sergeant Cousineau and I'm in the 18 Command Post. 19 AMBULANCE: Yeah we've got Sergeant Reid I think on 20 the other line. 21 COUSINEAU: Yes okay, you can tell him to disregard, 22 we're handling it in here. 23 AMBULANCE: Okay don't hang up. 24 COUSINEAU: Okay. 25 (background radio comm...ah TAC one are you 10-4 on the
2511 back out) 2 (background radio comm...10-4 we're backing out now 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And do you recognize those two (2) 8 voices? 9 A: The one (1) is Lacroix, and I'm not 10 sure who the other one (1) is. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 13 14 AMBULANCE: Okay you're ah...this is who? 15 COUSINEAU: This is Sergeant Cousineau and I'm in the 16 Command Post. 17 AMBULANCE: Yeah we've got Sergeant Reid I think on 18 the other line. 19 COUSINEAU: Yes okay, you can tell him to disregard, 20 we're handling it in here. 21 AMBULANCE: Okay don't hang up. 22 COUSINEAU: Okay. 23 (background radio comm...ah TAC one are you 10-4 on the 24 back out) 25 (background radio comm...10-4 we're backing out now over
2521 by TRU) 2 (background...from ah from a vehicle) 3 AMBULANCE: Do you need more than two ambulances where 4 you're at there? 5 COUSINEAU: Aren't...are you talking to your guys? 6 AMBULANCE: Yes. 7 COUSINEAU: Okay. 8 AMBULANCE: Yeah no you. 9 COUSINEAU: Ah all I got was from our guys that get 10 two ambulances okay, you have two 11 ambulances there that's fine. 12 AMBULANCE: Yeah, they should be there but they don't 13 want you to hang up either for a sec. 14 COUSINEAU: Okay. 15 (background...okay, do we need more up there Jeff than 16 what you have...I realize what's going on can you find 17 out if they need more than two ambulances? 18 (background...well, they want two) 19 (background...we have no casualties) 20 (background...we have...oh so they can cancel) 21 (background...Lima two has got the ambulances at the TOC 22 site) 23 (background...yes) 24 (background...so we'll cancel these then...we're okay) 25 (background...as far as we have (I/A) what they want to
2531 do is they already know they have two there they want to 2 know if we want any more) 3 (background...no) 4 (background...so okay) 5 (background...is checkpoint, is checkpoint Delta still 6 there our guys?) 7 (inaudible background conversation) 8 (background...we got enough ERT people to go back to 9 those checkpoints) 10 AMBULANCE: Yeah we're just trying to make sure 11 they're both committed to move another one 12 up. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE ENDS) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And the person who spoke mentioned: 18 "We've got enough ERT people to go 19 back." 20 That was Inspector Linton? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 24 25 COUSINEAU: Yeah I was going to say don't let the
2541 staffing level at that location go down 2 any lower than two okay. 3 AMBULANCE: You don't want it any lower than two. 4 COUSINEAU: No. 5 (background...we got ten uniforms, or six uniforms and 6 ten ERT at Delta) 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And who is -- can you -- do you 12 recognize the person who said: 13 "Six (6) uniforms and ten (10) ERT at 14 Delta?" 15 A: Sergeant Korosec. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 18 19 (background...can you call John) 20 COUSINEAU: Well we had some shots fired but it's our 21 understanding nobody's been hit so... 22 (background...we better maintain that road block) 23 (background...well we got (I/A) 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE ENDS)
2551 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And the person who said: 3 "We better maintain that roadblock." 4 A: I think that's me. I just heard 5 roadblock, but that sounds like my voice. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 8 9 background...we got ten uniforms, or six uniforms and ten 10 ERT at Delta) 11 (background...can you call John) 12 COUSINEAU: Well we had some shots fired but it's our 13 understanding nobody's been hit so... 14 (background...we better maintain that road block) 15 (background...well we got (I/A)..... 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: That's you? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 22 23 ...background...no they're in further..see we got six on 24 21 Highway and ten down here why the guys...) 25 (background...why don't we put these guys up here never
2561 mind down here put them up here) 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And there's an exchange, where your 7 voice is heard, Korosec -- Sergeant Korosec and then Dale 8 Linton? 9 A: Right. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 12 13 (background...well you got a couple of places they could 14 get in) 15 COUSINEAU: Alright. 16 (background...left open here on that highway) 17 (inaudible background conversation) 18 (background...they still got no cover there) 19 (background...let's start with that) 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: That's you? 25 A: Yeah, but I -- I hear that's my
2571 voice, but I didn't hear what I said. 2 Q: Let's start with that. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And does this assist you at all with 5 what you and Sergeant Korosec and Inspector Linton are 6 discussing at this point in time, does that assist your 7 memory? 8 A: Yes, we're talking about moving the 9 checkpoints because of what's happened there. We're 10 concerned about the safety of the officers at the 11 checkpoints, so we're moving them back. 12 And it gets to the point where, Well, 13 let's move them right back to 21 Highway, and Sergeant 14 Korosec is saying, Well, they still don't have any cover 15 at 21 Highway, you know, it's 21 Highway and East Parkway 16 is -- is just that, an intersection, there's no place to 17 take cover or anything. 18 But in any event, that's what we did, we 19 said, Well, let's just move them back, let's start at 20 that -- at that location. 21 Q: And what was the concern about cover? 22 A: Gunfire. 23 Q: And... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2581 Q: And Mr. Sandler picked up and I 2 apologize, I didn't, that you may have said, Highway 21 3 and East Parkway, you meant Highway 21 and Army Camp 4 Road? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 8 9 (background...bring the ten ERT back out to the corner 10 and get the blueshirts in) 11 (background...Lima one to Delta, Lima one to Delta) 12 (background...at the other end we should be okay with...) 13 (background...we got lots of bodies down there, we got 14 TRU down there...) 15 (background...we need another fucking TRU team) 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And there's Linton at the other end: 21 "We should be okay," 22 And then you say: 23 "We got lots of bodies down there. We 24 got TRU down there, we need another..." 25 A: TRU team.
2591 Q: "TRU team." 2 A: Yes. I -- if I understand the flow 3 here right, we're now -- I'm now in a mind set where I 4 thought some of our officers had been shot. And now we 5 don't think anybody's been shot and things are -- people 6 are starting to re -- I'm certainly starting to relax and 7 we're -- a bit, as far as moving people because we -- we 8 just think, you know, it was a terrible incident. 9 I think it's a terrible incident, but -- 10 no -- nobody's been shot so let's just move back and 11 we're going to set up some roadblocks and such. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 15 16 (background...I'm going to call Tony right now and talk 17 to him.) 18 (background...yeah) 19 (background...absolutely and two ERT (I/A) at least call 20 and say...hey...) 21 (background...Lima one to Delta, Lima one Delta) 22 (background...we got our fucking hands full here) 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 25
2601 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: That -- the last two (2) entries, 3 the: "Absolutely [and] two (2) ERT. At 4 least call and say, hey." 5 And then: 6 "We've got our hands full here." 7 That was you? 8 A: Right. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 11 12 AMBULANCE: Sergeant Cousineau. 13 COUSINEAU: Yes. 14 AMBULANCE: Have you got two people shot up there, I'm 15 getting another call in here? 16 COUSINEAU: We had shots fired but we have not been 17 told of any casualties or anybody been 18 hit. 19 AMBULANCE: Okay, I've got a 911 operator on the line 20 here saying that ah there's somebody on 21 the right phone right... 22 (background...Lima two, Lima one...lima two, lima one) 23 AMBULANCE: Now, two people have been hit. 24 COUSINEAU: From where, Where what's the ah address 25 location?
2611 AMBULANCE: I've got it as 9780 Army Camp Road. 2 COUSINEAU: 9780... 3 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 4 COUSINEAU: Okay (background...someone at 9780 is on 5 911 saying two people have been shot) 6 AMBULANCE: Hang on. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Do you recognize the voices that 12 said: 13 "Who did?" 14 A: That's me. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 17 18 COUSINEAU: (background...A 911 operator is getting a 19 call from 9780 saying that she's got two 20 people shot. 21 COUSINEAU: That's the address the 9 the 911 address? 22 Which street? Are you there? 23 (background...or Lima two Delta...we want you to back off 24 to where the uniforms are, back off to where the uniforms 25 are)
2621 AMBULANCE: Sergeant? 2 COUSINEAU: Yeah. 3 AMBULANCE: Okay apparently they hung up. 4 COUSINEAU: They hung up. 5 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 6 COUSINEAU: Okay 9780 what Army Camp or Parkway? 7 AMBULANCE: Army Camp Road. 8 COUSINEAU: Army Camp Road. 9 COUSINEAU: And they've hung up? 10 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 11 COUSINEAU: Can they do a call back? 12 AMBULANCE: Hang on I'll get you a number. 13 COUSINEAU: Okay. 14 AMBULANCE: Hang on. 15 (background radio comm...Delta from Lima one back off to 16 where your uniforms are at, at the highway 10-4) 17 (background radio comm...Lima one from Delta, 10-4) 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And the person -- it's not in the 23 transcript but there's a missing line. 24 "We need a 911 map." 25 And that's you?
2631 A: Yes. That's me. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 4 5 COUSINEAU: Can they do a call back? 6 AMBULANCE: Hang on I'll get you a number. 7 COUSINEAU: Okay. 8 AMBULANCE: Hang on. 9 (background radio comm...Delta from Lima one back off to 10 where your uniforms are at, at the highway 10-4) 11 (background radio comm...Lima one from Delta, 10-4) 12 (background...yeah 9780 Army Camp Road just follow the 13 number across) 14 AMBULANCE: Okay just the phone number here 243-1255. 15 Do you want me to try and... 16 COUSINEAU: What is the number? 17 AMBULANCE: 243-1255. 18 COUSINEAU: 2 -- 243? 19 AMBULANCE: 1255. 20 COUSINEAU: 1255? 21 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 22 COUSINEAU: Are you going to ring back? 23 AMBULANCE: I can I've already disconnected the 24 call... 25 COUSINEAU: Oh you've already disconnected, okay,
2641 alright uhm... 2 AMBULANCE: Hang on and I'll findout if Sergeant (I/A) 3 still has (I/A) 4 COUSINEAU: Okay. 5 (inaudible background talking) 6 COUSINEAU: (background...I don't know do they still 7 have one 1092?) 8 (background...yes) 9 (inaudible background conversation) 10 (background...Heather got a call that has nothing to do 11 with that) 12 (background...well two people are shot) 13 (background...well, it's way out here) 14 (background...it's way way...) 15 (background...9780 is up here) 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And that's you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us from this 23 conversation, does it -- you rec -- does it assist in 24 your recollection as to what's happening now? 25 A: Yes. That we have a 911 number but
2651 it's nowhere near anywhere we were or where the shots 2 were fired, we just -- it was nowhere on East Parkway or 3 anywhere in that location, according to the map and what 4 I have to say there. 5 So we're -- we're really confused as to 6 who needs an ambulance or where that might be. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 10 11 COUSINEAU: (no it's on on Army camp Road so it's got 12 to be there's got to be a problem there) 13 (background...well yeah well that's what we're telling 14 you, 9780 is up here) 15 Phone ringing 16 (background...and Army Camp Road is down here) 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: That's you? 22 A: Yes. I'm starting to get a little 23 frustrated because somebody, apparently, needs an 24 ambulance and we can't find out where they are. 25
2661 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 2 3 COUSINEAU: Are you still there? 4 AMBULANCE: Hi. 5 COUSINEAU: I just want to confirm that address you 6 said 9780? 7 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 8 COUSINEAU: I'm looking at the map and that that 9 number shouldn't even be on there. Like 10 9780 puts it way up ah...way up by ah... 11 AMBULANCE: It's up by Stony Point. 12 COUSINEAU: Well... 13 AMBULANCE: You're not near Stony Point are you? 14 COUSINEAU: Well well no we're at Ipperwash Beach, 15 yeah 16 that's Stony Point. 17 AMBULANCE: No I I thought you were in the exact 18 location, alright ah it was a male caller 19 and then he hung up. 20 COUSINEAU: A male caller that hung up? Try calling 21 the number back. 22 (background talking...(I/A) two people shot (I/A) Army 23 Camp Road the 91, 911 but it's (I/A) cause there's no 24 such thing as (I/A)) 25
2671 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And that's you in the background? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I might suggest at this point -- 7 were you speak -- do you recall speaking to John Carson? 8 A: Do I recall speaking to Carson? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: No. 11 Q: I only suggest that because the call 12 that we listened to a few moments ago at 23:09 plus seven 13 (7) would be 23:16. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: You used those words and you say to 16 John Carson: 17 "Right, okay, well, we've just got a 18 report of two (2) people shot at 9780 19 Army Camp Road. The 91 -- 911, but 20 it's a cluster fuck. There's no such 21 thing as far as I can tell." 22 And it appears that in the background you 23 could hear you saying those same words. 24 A: Those same words. I would agree that 25 that makes sense.
2681 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 2 3 (inaudible background talking) 4 COUSINEAU: That doesn't mean the number is right. 5 (background... 9780 Army Camp Road......Delta or whatever 6 they are, okay we'll do that through here.) 7 COUSINEAU: No it comes in as (I/A) 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And in the background it's you again? 13 A: Yes. I heard "okay". 14 Q: Just take you back. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 17 18 Army Camp Road......Delta or whatever they are, okay 19 we'll do that through here.) 20 COUSINEAU: No it comes in as (I/A) 21 (background...okay, then I'll get back to you okay? Okay 22 I got it) 23 COUSINEAU: (background...ambulance is going to try 24 and call back on that number.) 25 (background...John I mean he wants he wants the Barrie
2691 Team...) 2 (background radio comm...This is Alfa we read you we're 3 by the TOC go ahead) 4 (background radio comm...Delta as we're coming up Army 5 Camp Road (I/A) at the Army Base, ah we heard a (I/A) 6 pursuit he wishes to (I/A) ah east on 21) 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now, you don't pick it up but -- 12 through this system, but it appears from the transcript 13 that it was "John, I mean, he wants", and that -- do you 14 recognize that voice as your voice? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: "He wants the -- the Barrie team" and 17 although, Commissioner, it doesn't pick that up, when I 18 listened to this again last night, I believe it's there, 19 those words. He wants the Barrie team. 20 But we could perhaps listen to it as well, 21 we could -- I could -- when we're finished going through 22 this, ask the Witness to listen to it without going 23 through the amplification system. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 25 to have to take a break sometime. I don't know. This is
2701 going to be quite a while longer, it looks like. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. We could take a 3 break now and I could ask the Witness to -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- step over here and 6 listen to it now. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 8 break. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 3:11 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 3:29 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Inspector Wright, at the break you 20 had the opportunity to look at two (2) parts of the 21 transcript, Inquiry Document 2000604. And I suggest we 22 assign an exhibit number to this -- these pages 73 to 23 101. 24 It's not part -- it's a separate -- 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1119, Your Honour.
2711 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-1119. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1119. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1119: Document Number 2000604. 5 Pages 73 to 101, Cousineau to 6 Tewksbury at Command Centre, 7 22:59 hrs (Mark Wright heard 8 in background) Mobile Command 9 Unit. Logger tape number 4, 10 track 2, disc 2 of 3, Sept. 11 06/'95. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And the -- at page 77 at the break, 15 Inspector Wright listened to the communication: 16 "Okay, ambulance, don't send the 17 ambulance forward." 18 And he does not whose name that was. He 19 also looked at the reference on page -- listened to the 20 reference on page 89 where it says in the transcript: 21 "John I mean he wants -- he wants the 22 Barrie team." 23 And he heard that, I am told, on the -- on 24 the -- through the sound system although it doesn't pick 25 it up in -- in this room when you feed it through the
2721 large one; is that correct, Inspector Wright? 2 A: Yeah, and it's me. 3 Q: It's you. 4 A: It's me. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Sorry, Commissioner. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 11 12 (background...it's way way...) 13 (background...9780 is up here) 14 COUSINEAU: (no it's on on Army camp Road so it's got 15 to be there's got to be a problem there) 16 (background...well yeah well that's what we're telling 17 you, 9780 is up here) 18 Phone ringing 19 (background...and Army Camp Road is down here) 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COUSINEAU: A male caller that hung up? Try calling 24 the number back. 25 (background talking...(I/A) two people shot (I/A) Army
2731 Camp Road the 91, 911 but it's (I/A) cause there's no 2 such thing as (I/A)) 3 (inaudible background talking) 4 COUSINEAU: That doesn't mean the number is right. 5 (background... 9780 Army Camp Road......Delta or whatever 6 they are, okay we'll do that through here.) 7 COUSINEAU: No it comes in as (I/A) 8 (background...okay, then I'll get back to you okay? Okay 9 I got it) 10 COUSINEAU: (background...ambulance is going to try 11 and call back on that number.) 12 (background...John I mean he wants he wants the Barrie 13 Team...) 14 (background radio comm...This is Alfa we read you we're 15 by the TOC go ahead) 16 (background radio comm...Delta as we're coming up Army 17 Camp Road (I/A) at the Army Base, ah we heard a (I/A) 18 pursuit he wishes to (I/A) ah east on 21) 19 (background radio comm...the unit pursuing ah continue to 20 follow) 21 (background radio comm...10-4 license 935 hotel hotel 22 tango Ontario markers) 23 (background radio comm...10-4 continue to follow and not 24 light up) 25 (background radio comm...we got a pursuit now)
2741 (inaudible background talking) 2 (background radio comm...10-4 we deactivated our lights 3 and we're continuing to follow) 4 (inaudible background conversation) 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: That voice "who's handling that"; 10 that's you? 11 A: Me, correct. 12 Q: And what are -- do you -- what are 13 you referring to? 14 A: Well, policy is that in a pursuit, 15 that a communications sergeant is to -- is to handle the 16 pursuit as far as, does it continue or doesn't it 17 continue and -- and maintain some control, spend some 18 time, but that's my recollection of the policy. 19 And so I'm asking him, are you -- 20 Q: Him being Cousineau? 21 A: Cousineau, yeah. Are you -- and I'm 22 -- and I can't remember what exactly the words I use 23 but -- 24 Q: I'll just run it back. It's -- I 25 believe the words are, "Who's handling that?" and he says
2751 "No." 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 4 5 background radio comm...the unit pursuing ah continue to 6 follow) 7 (background radio comm...10-4 license 935 hotel hotel 8 tango Ontario markers) 9 (background radio comm...10-4 continue to follow and not 10 light up) 11 (background radio comm...we got a pursuit now) 12 (inaudible background talking) 13 (background radio comm...10-4 we deactivated our lights 14 and we're continuing to follow) 15 (inaudible background conversation) 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COUSINEAU: (no it's on on Army camp Road so it's got 20 to be there's got to be a problem there) 21 (background...well yeah well that's what we're telling 22 you, 9780 is up here) 23 Phone ringing 24 (background...and Army Camp Road is down here) 25
2761 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And you can hear you in the 5 background saying "9780 is up here"? 6 A: Right. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 9 10 COUSINEAU: Are you still there? 11 AMBULANCE: Hi. 12 COUSINEAU: I just want to confirm that address you 13 said 9780? 14 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 15 COUSINEAU: I'm looking at the map and that that 16 number shouldn't even be on there. Like 17 9780 puts it way up ah...way up by ah... 18 AMBULANCE: It's up by Stony Point. 19 COUSINEAU: Well... 20 AMBULANCE: You're not near Stony Point are you? 21 COUSINEAU: Well well no we're at Ipperwash Beach, 22 yeah 23 that's Stony Point. 24 AMBULANCE: No I I thought you were in the exact 25 location, alright ah it was a male caller
2771 and then he hung up. 2 COUSINEAU: A male caller that hung up? 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think somehow we 7 went backwards. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 9 where we are. I'm having -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no, no. I 11 apologize. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a hard 13 time following this. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Somehow we went 15 backwards. It's not a perfect science with this machine 16 here. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 19 20 pursuing ah continue to follow)... 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: We're now on page 90. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUES)
2781 2 ...background radio comm...10-4 license 935 hotel hotel 3 tango Ontario markers)... 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Well, it's page 89, moving to 90. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUES) 9 10 ...(background radio comm...10-4 continue to follow and 11 not light up) 12 (background radio comm...we got a pursuit now) 13 (inaudible background talking) 14 (background radio comm...10-4 we deactivated our lights 15 and we're continuing to follow) 16 (inaudible background conversation) 17 AMBULANCE: I'm not getting an answer. 18 (background...when it comes in as a pursuit the radio 19 comms pursuit (I/A) 20 AMBULANCE: Sergeant COUSINEAU. 21 COUSINEAU: Yes. 22 AMBULANCE: I'm not getting any answer there. 23 COUSINEAU: You're not getting any answer, okay. 24 (background...if you think it's by 97 whatever, there's a 25 number on there.)
2791 (background...there's been people shot we're going to 2 have to go, don't don't we?) 3 (inaudible background conversation) 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And I believe you say, I hear you 9 say, "We have to go"? 10 A: Yeah. Peo -- there's people shot, we 11 have to go. 12 Q: And that isn't in the transcript but 13 we'll make sure -- we'll do a corrected transcript for 14 next time you're back. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 17 18 COUSINEAU: (background...Ambulance has phoned that 19 number back and there's no answer, the 20 phone number.) 21 (inaudible background conversation) 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2801 Q: Actually the line, "There's been 2 people shot, we're going to have to go, don't we?" is in 3 the transcript, just a little farther ahead. 4 A: Okay. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 7 8 (inaudible background conversation) 9 (background...okay, Ipperwash is on Army Camp Road and 10 they got a number the Provincial Park, can we call 11 somebody there and get the 911 address for Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park and that will give us some sort of feel 13 for where we're at) 14 (inaudible background conversation) 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 17 18 Q: That was you? 19 A: Right. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 22 23 (inaudible background conversation) 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED)
2811 Q: And somebody's talking in the 2 background about calling the superintendent of the Park, 3 Les Kobayashi? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And do you recognize that name? And 6 was there a discussion? 7 A: No, I don't, sorry. 8 Q: It's okay. Was there a discussion 9 that you can recall or does this assist you with respect 10 to trying to get a hold of Les Kobayashi? 11 A: I don't think I'm doing that. The 12 idea here is let's find out what 911 number of the Park 13 is. And that's Sergeant Korosec who comes up with that 14 idea. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 17 18 inaudible background conversation) 19 COUSINEAU: So you tried that number and no luck eh? 20 21 AMBULANCE: I'll try once more for you sir. 22 COUSINEAU: Thanks. 23 (SECOND CONVERSATION IN PARENTHESIS) 24 (GRAHAM: Les, Les, Rob Graham from the OPP. Les ah 25 listen we got an altercation down there
2821 uhm what's the ah 911...) 2 (background radio comm...Lima one from Delta, Lima one 3 from Delta) 4 (background radio comm...we need an ambulance here at 5 21) 6 (background radio comm...for ambulance at 21...(I/A) 7 COUSINEAU: 21 at the Camp? 8 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 9 COUSINEAU: Okay. 10 (background radio comm...yeah Delta from Lima one) 11 COUSINEAU: How many? 12 AMBULANCE: Just one ambulance and we'll get it 13 rolling is that 10-4? 14 (background radio comm...(I/A) taking Ipperwash Road. 15 COUSINEAU: Okay so there's they... 16 AMBULANCE: Ambulance is on route. (background...Mark 17 you should have someone to go with that 18 ambulance this guy we'll we'll want in 19 custody. 20 AMBULANCE: Hello? 21 COUSINEAU: Hi. 22 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 23 COUSINEAU: Okay apparently ah somebody is coming out 24 at the front of the Army Camp Base at 21 25 Highway...
2831 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 2 COUSINEAU: Reporting somebody's been shot, okay... 3 AMBULANCE: Okay. 4 COUSINEAU: From so apparently somebody from down at 5 the scene is going to come around and go 6 to that scene so you're going to have to 7 scramble another ambulance out to the 8 scene for coverage. 9 (inaudible background radio comm.) 10 AMBULANCE: Yeah they're both heading up to the Army 11 Camp main entrance. 12 COUSINEAU: Okay both the ones down at the scene? 13 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 14 COUSINEAU: Okay so you're going to have to scramble a 15 couple more down. 16 AMBULANCE: Yeah and you want them up on Ipperwash 17 Road that's a checkpoint? 18 COUSINEAU: Yes please. 19 AMBULANCE: Okay. 20 COUSINEAU: Okay? 21 AMBULANCE: Yeah. 22 COUSINEAU: Thanks. 23 AMBULANCE: Okay bye bye. 24 COUSINEAU: Bye 25
2841 END OF CONVERSATION 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Now that's the end of that 7 conversation and then there's one (1) last conversation 8 that follows. And it starts at page 95. 9 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 (background...okay you got enough to do it) 14 (phone ringing in) 15 16 911: 911, police fire or ambulance. 17 UNKNOWN: Ambulance please 18 911: I'm putting you right through. 19 UNKNOWN: Thank you. 20 (background radio comm...closed off about Ravenswood on 21 the ah west and perhaps the ah Army Camp or the the next 22 road ah west from Army Camp 10-4) 23 (phone ringing in) 24 AMBULANCE: Ambulance. 25 UNKNOWN: Ambulance it's ah OPP calling back. when
2851 you ah wen you're (I/A) 2 AMBULANCE: (I/A) 3 UNKNOWN: Yes. 4 AMBULANCE: I've got another number here for you. 5 UNKNOWN: Oh what is it? 6 AMBULANCE: Somebody called in ah through the operator 7 system line 243-8953) 8 UNKNOWN: 8953? 9 AMBULANCE: Yeah apparently there were...now what are 10 the ambulances carrying? 11 UNKNOWN: I have no idea. 12 (inaudible conversation) 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: The -- do you recognize the voice of 18 the person on the phone? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And do rec -- is one (1) of the 21 voices -- 22 A: There's Cousineau -- Cousineau's on - 23 - he's one (1) of the people talking. 24 Q: Yes. The -- that's what I was -- on 25 this transcript where it says "Unknown," it's Sergeant
2861 Cousineau? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 5 6 (inaudible conversation) 7 UNKNOWN: Our understanding was that there were two 8 people that were supposed to be shot. 9 AMBULANCE: Yeah that's the information that we have 10 too. 11 UNKNOWN: Where would they be taking these people to 12 ambula or hospital one? 13 AMBULANCE: (I/A) 14 UNKNOWN: Strathroy Hospital. 15 AMBULANCE: Yeah (background...Jack what's going 16 on...who are...are they both) 17 (inaudible background conversation) 18 AMBULANCE: (I/A) when they're enroute and that okay? 19 You got Sudsy going to Ipperwash? 20 (inaudible background talking) 21 (background...no no Grand Bend will close up 21 at Outer 22 Drive) 23 AMBULANCE: Hang on there for a sec though. 24 UNKNOWN: Yes. 25 AMBULANCE: I'm back, hello.
2871 UNKNOWN: Hi. 2 AMBULANCE: Whose this? 3 COUSINEAU: Bob Cousineau. 4 UNKNOWN: I'm sorry I got ah I'm looking for Gilpin 5 I got him on another line, hang on. 6 COUSINEAU: Hmm. 7 (inaudible background conversation) 8 UNKNOWN: Ah yeah bring them out to the gate. 9 UNKNOWN: They're at the gate now. 10 UNKNOWN: Okay can we get ah well we got people at 11 21 Highway. 12 (inaudible background conversation) 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 15 16 Q: And there was a reference there, did 17 you hear your voice? 18 A: I heard it in the background. 19 Q: In the background? 20 A: Yeah. Linton and myself and I think 21 Korosec. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 24 25 UNKNOWN: Where would they be taking these people to
2881 ambula or hospital one? 2 AMBULANCE: (I/A) 3 UNKNOWN: Strathroy Hospital. 4 AMBULANCE: Yeah (background...Jack what's going 5 on...who are...are they both) 6 (inaudible background conversation) 7 AMBULANCE: (I/A) when they're enroute and that okay? 8 You got Sudsy going to Ipperwash? 9 (inaudible background talking) 10 (background...no no Grand Bend will close up 21 at Outer 11 Drive) 12 AMBULANCE: Hang on there for a sec though... 13 14 CONTINUED BY DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: We're on page 97, Commissioner. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUES) 18 19 ...UNKNOWN: Yes. 20 AMBULANCE: I'm back, hello. 21 UNKNOWN: Hi. 22 AMBULANCE: Whose this? 23 COUSINEAU: Bob Cousineau. 24 UNKNOWN: I'm sorry I got ah I'm looking for Gilpin 25 I got him on another line, hang on.
2891 COUSINEAU: Hmm. 2 (inaudible background conversation) 3 UNKNOWN: Ah yeah bring them out to the gate. 4 UNKNOWN: They're at the gate now. 5 UNKNOWN: Okay can we get ah well we got people at 6 21 Highway. 7 (inaudible background conversation) 8 (background conversation...okay 21 at Outer Drive is 9 closed what was the other end) 10 (background...they somebody closed that) 11 (background...yeah) 12 (background...already) 13 (background...they're on (I/A) 14 (background...okay) 15 (background...they're they're been (I/A) 16 (background...and ah 21 Highway...) 17 (background radio comm...(I/A) right now (I/A) 10-4) 18 (background...21 Highway at Ravenswood ah Ipperwash Road) 19 (background...10-4) 20 (background...at Ipperwash Road?) 21 (background...yeah) 22 (background...Radio Comm...Lima two) 23 (background...(I/A) 24 (background...Who does that area?) 25 (background...Forest)
2901 (background...Forest) 2 (background radio comm...ah Lima two, Lima one go ahead) 3 AMBULANCE: Sorry I haven't forgot about you. 4 COUSINEAU: No problem. 5 (background...some people are being requested to provide 6 security and backup for the ah parking lot) 7 AMBULANCE: I'm going to give this one to London rep. 8 (background...(I/A) at the TOC) 9 (background radio comm...don't believe so ah as she...ah 10 I think they're calling at the TAC) 11 (background...okay whose asking for that cause they're 12 not located far from you) 13 (background radio comm....down by the Park) 14 AMBULANCE: Are you going to stay on this line? 15 COUSINEAU: Ah I could stay on it. 16 AMBULANCE: If you want ah I just have to call a 17 couple of crews in. 18 COUSINEAU: Okay. Well we'll put it this way I just 19 want to confirm ah... 20 AMBULANCE: We got two more ambulances. 21 COUSINEAU: You got two ambulances coming and can you 22 try that 243-8953 and... 23 AMBULANCE: Normally I have the operator doing that 24 for me and ah somebody picked up... 25 COUSINEAU: Yeah.
2911 AMBULANCE: And ah then they hung up again, they 2 wouldn't stay on the line for them. 3 COUSINEAU: Alright. Okay. 4 AMBULANCE: Alright. 5 COUSINEAU: Thanks 6 AMBULANCE: Bye. 7 COUSINEAU: Bye. 8 9 END OF CONVERSATION 10 END OF TAPE 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Now, if we could just go back for a 16 moment to the scribe notes at page 86. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And there are a number of references 22 on page 80, starting at the 23:05 that con -- that relate 23 to some of the things that we've just heard on this 24 transcription -- this call that appears as part of 25 Exhibit P-1119, 1119.
2921 Is that correct? 2 A: Right, I agree with you. 3 Q: And the -- at 23:14 the scribe has 4 indicated that -- well, excuse me. At 23:10 the back out 5 order Dale Linton, six (6) uniforms, ten (10) ERT at 6 Delta, get blue suits out. Have ten (10) ERT at D. 7 We heard something about that in the 8 background. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then Dale Linton calling 11 Superintendent Parkin. And we heard only snippets of 12 that in the background is that -- do you agree? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Then "23:14, 9780 Army Camp Road, 15 Sergeant Cousineau got 911 of two (2) 16 people shot. Dale Linton still on 17 phone. John Carson requests Barrie ERT 18 and fifty (50) people." 19 That's the call with you? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And then 23:17, "reports of pursuits 22 starting. Red Nova." 23 Is that -- 24 A: I heard that in the background, yes. 25 Q: And that was the pursuit where you
2931 asked who was handling it? 2 A: Right, correct. 3 Q: And then 23:19 hours, "off phone". 4 That would be Dale Linton? 5 A: Yes. I believe it is. 6 Q: And "Rob Graham -- Graham called Les 7 Kobayashi"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And we heard a reference to Bob 10 Graham calling Les on the -- 11 A: It's Rob. 12 Q: I said Rob, didn't I? 13 A: Oh, I thought you said Bob, pardon 14 me. 15 Q: We're both getting tired. 16 "Reports 10:52 needed at entry it's 17 Army Camp to pick up native that has 18 been shot". 19 And we heard something about that on the 20 tape. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And then there was a reference to 23 Highway 21 being closed at Outer Drive and then something 24 fifth at Army Camp -- of Army Camp at Ipperwash Road. 25 Do you know what that refers to?
2941 A: Yes, the -- the -- I think what 2 they're talking about is they're moving the -- the road - 3 - the roadblock back to 21 and Army Camp Road. But I 4 don't know what the -- the comment is about Outer and 5 fifth. 6 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 7 "23:25. Trevor Richardson, victim is 8 being transported to Strathroy. 9 Constable Speck and Mark Dew en route." 10 And did you have anything to do with the 11 decision to send Constable Speck and Mark Dew to 12 Strathroy? 13 A: My -- yes, I sent them there. That's 14 my recollection. 15 Q: And why did you send them there? 16 A: Well, because an individual had been 17 shot, complaining of a gunshot wound, had been picked up 18 in the ambulance at Army Camp Road and 21 Highway, I 19 believe that's what that relates to. 20 And we had just been involved in an 21 incident down at -- on East Parkway Road where gunshots 22 had been exchanged between OPP officers and unknown 23 individuals. And my understanding, at the time, was that 24 OPP officers down on the road, there was an attempt to 25 run them over and there's -- and there was an attempt to
2951 murder them with res -- with guns as well. 2 There were shots fired at OPP officers and 3 the OPP officers returned the fires -- the fire directly 4 back at the car and the bus. So I thought it reasonable 5 that the individual who was suffering an apparent gunshot 6 wound would be involved in that altercation, and I sent 7 Dew and Speck to the hospital. 8 Q: And that's with respect to the person 9 picked up at Highway 21 and the -- and the Army Camp -- 10 entrance to the Army Camp? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Then we have a call at 23:34 where 13 you received a call from Mr. Mercredi? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And if you'd turn to page 43. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: What was the tab, sir? 20 Q: It's actually -- I'm going to take 21 you to Tab 44 for the moment and -- 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: And this is a call between you and 24 Dave -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Tab 44?
2961 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it's Tab 44, sir 2 and it's not coming through very clearly. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 Region 18: 7 Mark Wright -Com Centre-Dave Tewksbury 8 September 6, 1995 23:31 hrs. 9 Chatham Communication Centre - Logger Tape #0146 Track 2 10 - Disc 2 of 20 11 12 13 [MW = Actind Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 14 [DT = Sergeant Dave Tewksbury, at Chatham Communication 15 Centre] 16 17 MW: Command Post. Wright. 18 DT: Yeah Mark, its Dave Tewksbury Comm Centre. 19 We have Mercredi. He's on the line right 20 now. Do you have a number where he could 21 phone? Or what do you want me to tell him? 22 23 MW: Yeah. Well what's he want? Did he say? 24 DT: No. He wanted to speak to Babbitt. 25 MW: I'll talk to him. What's our phone number
2971 in 2 here? I need the phone number in here 3 guys. 786 - 12 61. 786-12 61. 'kay? 4 DT: Okay. I'll give it to him. 5 MW: 519. 6 DT: Yes. 7 MW: I'll talk to him. 8 DT: Okay. Thanks. 9 MW: Bye. 10 DT: Your welcome. 11 12 [brief pause] 13 14 DT: Good day sir. 15 ??: Good evening. 16 DT: My name is Dave Tewksbury. I'm a sergeant 17 in 18 Communications. Actually I - there's an 19 officer by the name of Mark Wright and I 20 have a telephone number where you can 21 reach him directly. He's up in the 22 Ipperwash area right now. Okay. His number 23 is 519 - yes you will, he's awaiting for 24 your call right now - 786-1261. I would 25 transfer you but you dialed in on the 1-
2981 800 emergency line and they're not 2 transferable. Okay? Thank you. Bye-bye. 3 4 End of conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 Q: And I would ask, Commissioner, we 9 mark that transcript. It's noted at 23:31 on September 10 the 6th. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1120, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1120. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1120: Transcript of Mark Wright, 15 Command Centre, Dave 16 Tewksbury , Region 18, 17 Chatham Communication Centre. 18 Logger tape number 0146, 19 track 2, disc 2 of 20, 23:31 20 hrs. Sept. 06/'95 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And that at Tab 45 there is -- it's - 24 - the transcript appears as part of Exhibit P-444B at Tab 25 59. And this is the -- excuse me, a call between
2991 Detective Sergeant Wright at the time and Mr. -- Chief -- 2 Grand Chief Mercredi. 3 And this was played actually during Mr. 4 Mercredi's appearance here but we'll play it again. And 5 it's interesting -- it's noted on this one that it's 6 23:31 hours and in the scribe note it's 23:34 hours so 7 the difference appears to be about three (3) minutes. 8 It may be a different time in the 9 handwritten notes but 23:38 but I'm going to play this 10 one next. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 13 14 Dsgt. Wright and Ovide Mercredi 15 16 September 6, 1995 17 TIME: 23:31:18 hours 18 Track 3.wav 19 20 PETERMAN: Command Post Peterman. 21 MERCREDI: Yes, this is Ovide Mercredi. 22 PETERMAN: Yes, okay, just a moment please. 23 WRIGHT: Detective Sergeant Wright speaking, can I 24 help you? 25 MERCREDI: Yes, this is Ovide Mercredi.
3001 WRIGHT: Yes. 2 MERCREDI: I'm the First Nations. 3 WRIGHT: Yes, I'm familiar with who you are sir. 4 MERCREDI: Yeah, I just received a call ah that kind 5 of disturbs me. 6 WRIGHT: Uhm uhm. 7 MERCREDI: ah from a Tom Bressette's wife. 8 WRIGHT: Yes. 9 MERCREDI: I guess Tom is on his way to the Park. 10 WRIGHT: Uhm uhm 11 MERCREDI: I'm told that there's some thirty cruisers 12 and some ambulances and some canine units 13 on their way there. 14 WRIGHT: Yes. 15 MERCREDI: And I wanted to know if, that's true? 16 WRIGHT: Yes, that's true we have a situation 17 there. 18 MERCREDI: And what is your intention there? 19 WRIGHT: A, as far as what sir, per, like I'm, I'm 20 not in the Command ah, I'm not the, I'm 21 not the Incident Commander eh's kind of 22 tied up with the situation here, but I can 23 relay this stuff to you. 24 MERCREDI: Maybe I should wait for him to talk to him 25 then, because I want to know because I'm
3011 very concerned with what you're doing. 2 I'm concerned about people's lives. 3 WRIGHT: And so are we. 4 MERCREDI: And that's why I'm calling. 5 WRIGHT: And, and, and ah. 6 MERCREDI: (inaudible) 7 WRIGHT: That's good, that's, I, we don't have any 8 problem with that. 9 MERCREDI: We have a common goal. 10 WRIGHT: We certainly do, okay, what, I'll tell you 11 what sir, if you can briefly tell me what 12 you want and then I'll grab him and tehn, 13 and then. 14 MERCREDI: I want to know if it is your intention to 15 move in those people tonight? 16 WRIGHT: To move into those people tonight, okay, 17 I'll, I'll ah pass that on to my 18 Commander. 19 MERCREDI: (Inaudible) I want to know that before, 20 before I make any outstanding calls. 21 WRIGHT: Okay and, do you want me, do you want me 22 to gi, do you want to give me your number, 23 sir, or do you want to hang on the line, 24 what what do you prefer? 25 MERCREDI: I would prefer to hang on.
3021 WRIGHT: Okay, ah, then I'm, I'm going to put you 2 on hold then. 3 MERCREDI: What what is the person that I, person's 4 name that I'm gonna talk to? 5 WRIGHT: You will either speak to Inspector Carson 6 or Inspector Linton. 7 MERCREDI: Carson. 8 WRIGHT: Or Linton. 9 MERCREDI: Or Linton 10 WRIGHT: Yes 11 MERCREDI: You, I'll give you the number then 12 (inaudible). 13 WRIGHT: Yes, that's probably a good idea. 14 MERCREDI: I think I better make calls now, sounds 15 like it anyway. Ah my number is (613). 16 WRIGHT: Yes. 17 MERCREDI: 8-3-0. 18 WRIGHT: 8-3-0, yes. 19 MERCREDI: 2-2-1-1. 20 WRIGHT: 2-2-1-1. 21 MERCREDI: Yes. 22 WRIGHT: That's the number ah, and you want to know 23 whether or not we're going go into the, 24 our intention is go. 25 MERCREDI: Yeah.
3031 WRIGHT: Whether we're going to go into the Park? 2 MERCREDI: What's the rush, why, why don't you wait 3 until tomorrow after you've talked to 4 them. 5 WRIGHT: I see. 6 MERCREDI: And why you're doing (inaudible). 7 WRIGHT: And, and yo're re, like I know who you are 8 okay, and, and. 9 MERCREDI: (Inaudible) 10 WRIGHT: I know, I know, I know exactly who you are 11 sir I just want to know what, if, are you 12 their negotiator, you're their spokesman 13 or what. 14 MERCREDI: No, I'm not. 15 WRIGHT: You're just 16 MERCREDI: I'm concerned about Indian people, I 17 represent them, where ever they may be. 18 WRIGHT: Okay, and you're speaking on behalf of Tom 19 Bressette or 20 MERCREDI: No, I'm not. 21 WRIGHT: Or you're just speaking on behalf the, 22 that you're the Grand Chief. 23 MERCREDI: I'm the Grand Chief I'm speaking in that 24 capacity. 25 WRIGHT: Okay, that's all I wanted to know sir,
3041 okay, I'll, I'm going, do you want me to 2 put you hold or do we get back to you or 3 who do you want to do this. 4 MERCREDI: Well you can, you can get back to me. 5 WRIGHT: Okay. 6 MERCREDI: I'll wait for the call. 7 WRIGHT: Okay, thank you sir, bye. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And it appears, Inspector Wright, if 13 you look at page 360, Mr. Mercredi's asking what your 14 intentions are. Want to know whether or not you're going 15 to -- into the -- our intention is go -- whether you're 16 going and then he says: 17 "Yeah, whether we're going to go into 18 the Park." 19 Answer: 20 "What's the rush? Why don't you wait 21 until tomorrow after you've talked to 22 them. I see." 23 And at that point on the evening of 24 September the 6th, at approximately 11:30, what was your 25 understanding of the intention of the Ontario Provincial
3051 Police with respect to the Park? 2 A: Well, we weren't going in the Park if 3 that's -- 4 Q: And so my question to you is; why 5 didn't you tell that to Grand Chief Mercredi? 6 A: I don't know. I guess is the -- I 7 was taken aback by the fact that he was calling. And I 8 don't -- I never took it that way until actually you just 9 said that this moment. I was taking that as in were we 10 going into the Park -- he wasn't aware that an incident 11 had already taken place. 12 I, of course, was aware that an incident 13 had already taken place. So I was -- I was of the under 14 -- under the impression when I was talking to him when he 15 asked me that is, were you going into the Park, as in 16 were you going to the park to deal with those people when 17 we already hadn't done that. 18 If that makes sense to you. I mean, he 19 was talking to me about something that he thought hadn't 20 happened. And I was -- I already knew that the incident 21 had taken place. 22 Q: Well it was clear from what -- well 23 it appears from -- from the conversation that he was 24 concerned that something was going to happen and he 25 wanted to know if you're going into the Park.
3061 And you indicated that, as you just said, 2 that something had happened, as you said on the phone, 3 there was a situation. 4 A: There's a situation here, that's 5 right. My -- my mind set, when I was speaking to Mr. 6 Mercredi, was he was under the -- he didn't know that 7 this incident had already taken place. 8 Where, clearly, I was -- I -- I did know 9 that it had taken place. So I was operating under the -- 10 under the impression that he wanted information with 11 respect to what were all those policemen going to do when 12 they went down there when, in fact, that had already 13 taken place. 14 And I didn't think it was appropriate for 15 me to be giving any information to anybody about what had 16 taken place there because of the seriousness of the 17 incident, I thought that was more appropriate handled by 18 an Incident Commander. 19 Q: All right. Then using the -- if I 20 could ask you to just look at your notes at page 85, 21 Exhibit P-1086. Do you see that? Page 85 -- 22 A: I'm just about there. Yes, sir, I'm 23 there, page 85. 24 Q: And your notes indicate and I 25 understand that, as you said, you made those the next
3071 day. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: "Inspector Carson advises me to 4 obtain fifty (50) more officers and one 5 (1) extra TRU team by daylight, 9-1-1 6 call comes into Comm Centre asking for 7 ambulance to go to -- into Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park to pick up a party -- 9 pick up -- pick a party up with a 10 gunshot wound. 11 Ambulance requests OPP escort into the 12 Park. My position is that no OPP 13 officers go into the Park with 14 ambulance; too dangerous. 15 Injured party can, one (1), be brought 16 out to Military Road to ambulance where 17 we, OPP, will escort, or two (2), 18 ambulance can pick up party at gates at 19 CFB Ipperwash. 20 My position is relayed to Inspector 21 Linton in Comm Centre post. Ambulance 22 attends and picks up injured party at 23 gates to Ipperwash Base. 24 Two (2) OPP officers in escort to 25 Strathroy Hospital."
3081 And that's -- those are the notes of the 2 exchange with respect to the ambulance, your notes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that -- part of which we heard in 5 the background -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- and the call with Sergeant 8 Cousineau? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And the person that you're concerned 11 about at this point in time is the person who is picked 12 up at the entrance to the Army Camp? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Then the -- when did you learn that 15 the -- at the top of page 86 to -- there's a 10-92 taken 16 by CMU also in ambulance escorted by OPP officers to 17 Strathroy Hospital? 18 When did you learn about that -- a 10-92, 19 I take it, is an arrest? 20 A: Prisoner. 21 Q: Prisoner? And when did you learn 22 about that, sir? 23 A: I -- I don't know when I did. I 24 don't know when I remembered -- I was made aware of that. 25 I -- I remember speaking to Dew at the
3091 hospital. He was at Strathroy Hospital, I was at the 2 command post and he starts relaying numbers of injured. 3 And eventually I start to get names and at 4 some point I realized that one of them is the individual 5 who was initially the prisoner, and that prisoner came 6 from the -- the clash between the CMU and the occupiers. 7 But that's some time later. 8 Q: And when did you learn, if you 9 learned, that the -- someone was being transported to 10 Strathroy Hospital in a car? 11 A: My recollection is there was a call 12 that came in saying that a car had shown up at a private 13 residence at Nauvoo Road and that a person had come to 14 the door and said somebody had been shot and they wanted 15 assistance, and they left. 16 And -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- my recollection after that is that 19 I sent Richardson, although in -- as a result of my 20 review it would appear Richardson went with another 21 officer, but I only remember Richardson, but it was Bell, 22 I believe, ended up going with Richardson. 23 But anyways, I sent him out that way and 24 he went, as I recall, towards Nauvoo Road and then 25 towards the hos -- to the hospital as well.
3101 Q: Yes. 2 A: That -- I think that answers your 3 question as to -- so it would be shortly -- sometime 4 after that individual -- whoever lives at Nauvoo Road 5 called in and made that call, sometimes shortly 6 thereafter I became aware of that. 7 Q: And what instructions, if any, did 8 you give to Trevor Richardson with respect to the person 9 in the car? 10 A: I'm more clear with the conversation 11 I had with Dew -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- regarding the person in the car. 14 But I have a recollection that I also spoke to 15 Richardson, but I'm not sure if that's as a result of my 16 review or what my independent recollection 17 But I certainly remember talking to Mark 18 Dew. 19 Q: Okay. And what do you recall of your 20 conversation with Mark Dew? 21 A: I told Mark Dew that there was a 22 conversation about this vehicle coming with a person 23 suffering a gunshot wound to Strathroy Hospital. And my 24 instructions were, I quickly explained to him what I felt 25 were the reasonable and probable grounds to believe that
3111 those individuals would be -- grounds existed for the 2 arrest of those individuals for attempted murder. 3 I passed those on to him. And my position 4 was that they should be arrested for attempted murder. 5 Q: And did you have any idea of who the 6 individuals were in the car? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did you give any other 9 instructions to Mark Dew other than to arrest the 10 individuals in the car? 11 A: In regards to what, the individuals 12 in the car? 13 Q: Yeah. Did you -- did you know how 14 many people were in the car? 15 A: I know now and I knew because I've 16 reviewed things. I can't remember if I knew there were 17 four (4) people in the car as a result of my independent 18 recollection or not. 19 I knew there were a number of people in 20 that car. I think I did know there were four (4) people 21 in that car. 22 Q: And the reason that you gave -- the 23 reason you instructed Constable Dew to arrest the 24 individuals was because of the one gunshot person -- 25 victim in the car?
3121 A: Well, it's a little -- there's a 2 little more to it than that but, okay. 3 Q: Well, you tell me again why you 4 instructed him to arrest the individuals in the car? 5 A: Well, there was an altercation at -- 6 earlier that evening where OPP officers were almost run 7 over and had been shot at; that was the information I had 8 at the time. 9 And the OPP officers had returned fire 10 into a vehicle and a bus as a result of being fired upon, 11 initially. And then we have a vehicle who shows up in 12 and around that general area, Nauvoo Road, shortly 13 thereafter that incident with an individual complaining 14 of a person in the vehicle suffering a gunshot wound and 15 on their way to hospital. 16 So I would -- in my opinion, the 17 reasonable and probable grounds existed to draw the 18 inference that that person who was in the vehicle and 19 suffering from the wound was -- and all the other 20 individuals in that vehicle was involved in the, either 21 A) attempting to run over the OPP officers or firing upon 22 the OPP officers. 23 So that was, as far as I was concerned, 24 the -- the reasonable, probable grounds that existed to 25 effect that arrest.
3131 Q: Okay. And I would ask you to turn to 2 tab 46. And this is a radio communication -- telephone 3 communication between you and the communications centre 4 that's at 23:46 hours on the evening of September 6th. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 7 8 Region 20: 9 Mark Wright -Com Centre re: threats to officers 10 September 6, 1995 23:46 hours 11 Chatham Communication Centre - Logger Tape #0146 12 Track 2 - Disc 2 of 20 13 14 [CCC = Chatham Communication Centre] 15 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 16 17 CCC: Chatham. Can I help you. 18 MW: Yeah, its Mark. 19 CCC: Mark? 20 MW: Yeah. Give me a pen, will you? I need 21 Wallaceburg PD's number. 22 CCC: 627-2295. 23 MW: 22? 24 CCC: 95. 25 MW: Okay, listen. Do you know about the
3141 threats to our guys? The three George 2 boys? 3 CCC: Yeah. I took the call. 4 MW: Okay. So. You get - you make sure those 5 guys' addresses are up on a fucking board 6 somewhere and if there's any kind of a 7 call about that place I want - I want 8 major response okay? 9 CCC: Okay. 10 MW: I'm going to call Wallaceburg PD. We're 11 looking after notifying the PDs in their 12 area. 13 CCC: Okay. 14 MW: Okay? 15 CCC: You want me to write these guys' addresses 16 on our board up here? 17 MW: Yeah. That their lives have been 18 threatened and any call about that I want 19 major response. 20 CCC: Very good sir. 21 MW: Okay? 22 CCC: Yeah, okay. 23 MW: Bye. 24 CCC: Bye. 25
3151 End of conversation 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 6 that transcript be marked the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1121, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1121: Transcript of Mark Wright, 10 Comm Centre re. Threats to 11 Officers, Region 20, Chatham 12 Communication Centre, Logger 13 tape number 0146, track 2, 14 disc 2 of 20, 23:46 hrs, 15 Sept. 06/'95. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 19 what that relates to, Inspector Wright? 20 A: Well, a specific threat came in to 21 the Comm Centre relative to Constables Vince, Luke -- 22 Vince and Luke George as well as Constable Carmen 23 Bressette. 24 And I was, as you can tell, very concerned 25 about their safety and I wanted the Comm Centre to know
3161 and I wanted it up on the board so if their -- any call 2 was made to that location, to any of their houses, that 3 we had a reasonable number of vehicles responding 4 immediately. 5 And -- and I knew that one (1) of the 6 officers resided in the town of Wallaceburg so I wanted 7 to -- I was going to call and brief them personally, so 8 that that officer was looked after as well. 9 Q: Okay. And did you do that, let -- 10 A: Yeah. Yes. 11 Q: Now, were you at -- in -- back at 12 Exhibit 426, it -- at page 81, there's a -- at 23:44 13 hours: 14 "John Carson spoke to Dale Linton, 15 advised him of two (2) injured and 16 Native officers [it says lies] but 17 lives are in danger. John Carson wants 18 evacuation in area, trailer park area 19 to the corner and corner to the TOC. 20 Steve Reid assigned to contact people." 21 Did you have anything to do with the 22 evacuation? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And perhaps, Commissioner, this would 25 be a good time to break for the day. We're not going to
3171 finish, unfortunately. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 3 that's been pretty clear. 4 Yes, I think it's been a long week and if 5 you think this is a good point to break -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It would be -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we'll 8 adjourn now and come back, not next week -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's March the 6th. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: March the 11 6th at 10:30, the usual time? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 14 to ask if you're going to finish on that day or not, but 15 we'll just have to hope. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we'll finish the 17 chief as expeditiously as possible, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, thank 19 you very much. It's a long week; we're going to adjourn 20 now until March the 6th at 10:30. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 22 adjourned until Monday, March the 6th at 10:30 a.m. 23 24 (WITNESS RETIRES) 25
3181 --- Upon adjourning at 4:16 p.m. 2 3 4 5 6 Certified Correct, 7 8 9 10 11 12 _________________ 13 Carol Geehan, Ms. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25