11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 23rd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) (Student-at-law) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) (np) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 Peter West ) (np) 22 Nagai On Young ) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 8 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 9 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 10 Julian Roy ) (np) 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 15 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 16 Matthew Horner ) 17 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 18 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Erin Tully ) 20 Craig Mills ) (np) 21 Megan Mackey ) (np) 22 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 23 Anna Perschy ) (np) 24 Melissa Panjer ) 25 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 Discussion 6 4 5 WALLACE GREGORY KACZANOWSKI, Sworn 6 7 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 47 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 111 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 120 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 130 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathan George 144 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 149 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 174 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 192 15 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Katherine Hensel 195 16 17 MILES CHARLES BRESSETTE, Sworn: 18 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 197 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 258 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The first order of 11 business today is to deal with a request that has been 12 made by Mr. Maynard Sam George and the request that's 13 been made by Mr. George is to have his testimony heard in 14 Toronto and the reasons advanced by Mr. George in his 15 letter to me are as follows and I quote from his letter: 16 "For one, Toronto is where I believe 17 the Ipperwash shooting of my brother 18 originated. That is where then Premier 19 Harris of Ontario said this Government 20 treats aboriginals and non-aboriginals 21 the same." 22 And quotes in brackets: 23 "regardless of the treaty between our 24 peoples." 25 Closed bracket and that he, quote:
71 "Wants him out (of the Park, namely our 2 treaty lands) in a day or two. 3 For another, Toronto is closest to the 4 eyes and ears of the broad Ontario 5 public (sometimes in the form of the 6 media), a public who will need to 7 understand and give some support to the 8 Commission's work and recommendations 9 if they are to make a difference. 10 Thirdly, the public all across Ontario 11 and the rest of Canada have a personal 12 stake in this issue because they are 13 the people who ultimately will be 14 affected if political pressure on 15 police to use force against legitimate 16 protestors is tolerated in this society 17 and the great majority of that same 18 public is either in Toronto or accesses 19 a media that is based in Toronto. 20 Fourthly, Toronto is closest to the 21 present decision makers who will decide 22 whether to do anything about the 23 evidence and report from this 24 Commission." 25 With respect to the issue of the
81 authority, with respect to the location of the Hearings, 2 Rule 2, as you know, provides you with the absolute 3 authority to designate location of the Hearings. The 4 rule states: 5 "Public hearings will be convened in 6 the Ipperwash area at Forest in the 7 Community Centre (Kimball Hall) and in 8 Toronto at the Commission Hearing Room 9 and such other locations as the 10 Commission designates to address issues 11 related to Part 1 of the Inquiry." 12 This is a public inquiry, not a trial. 13 The technical rules of venue do not govern your 14 procedural decisions on where the testimony of a 15 particular Witness is to be heard. You have an absolute 16 discretion to determine the location of the Hearings and 17 with that, where a Witness will be heard. 18 On July 13th, 2004, you stated as follows: 19 "I have determined that Forest should 20 be the primary location for these 21 Hearings based on the principle that an 22 Inquiry of this kind should be held in 23 the location where a substantial part 24 of the events in question occurred. 25 In my view, physical proximity
91 heightens one's awareness of and 2 appreciation for the events in 3 question. It also better insures that 4 the Inquiry is readily accessible to a 5 majority of those who are most affected 6 by those events." 7 While you determine that the bulk of the 8 Hearings would be held in Forest, you left it open the 9 witnesses to be heard in other locations. When we 10 received this request you directed me to canvass the 11 other parties with respect to Mr. Sam George's request as 12 you wished to have the matter dealt with in public. 13 We have done that. Some parties support 14 the request including the chiefs of Ontario and 15 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto. The residents of 16 Aazhoodena support the request but do not agree or accept 17 all of the reasons advanced. 18 The Government of Ontario does not object 19 to the request but again, does not accept or agree with 20 the reasons advanced by Mr. George. As I understand it, 21 Mr. Harris and Mr. Hodgson do not object to Mr. George 22 testifying in Toronto but again, do not agree with nor 23 accept the reasons advanced by Mr. George. 24 The OPP, the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony 25 Point First Nation, the coroner of Ontario also take no
101 position either for or against. As I understand it, the 2 Municipality of Lambton Shores does not object -- takes 3 no position but as you will hear from Mr. Nash that the 4 decision should be made on one of principle. 5 Counsel for Mr. Harnick takes no position 6 but shares the concerns raised by Counsel for Mr. Harris. 7 And that's -- the concern is with respect to the reasons. 8 As I understand it, the OPPA, Mr. Beaubien and the 9 Aazhoodena and George Family Group are opposed to the 10 request. 11 Mr. Runciman and Ms. Hutton have an 12 objection, the main basis of the objection of Counsel for 13 Messrs. Runciman and Ms. Hutton as I understand it is 14 that by, and it's really the same as Mr. Harris, is that 15 by agreeing to the request, the Commission is somehow 16 agreeing with the reasons put forth in Mr. Sam George's 17 letter dated February 15, 2005. 18 I have provided you with copy of the 19 submissions of Ms. Spies on behalf of Mr. Runciman who 20 could not be here today. Commission Counsel recommends 21 that you agree to the request of Mr. George but without 22 commenting on the merits of the reasons set out in Mr. 23 George's letter. 24 Many of those reasons are subject of hotly 25 contested factual disputes which will be the subject of
111 findings of fact at the end of these Hearings. Simply 2 put, it is premature to consider the merits of the 3 reasons advanced by Mr. George given their dependence on 4 factual findings and in particular, reason number 1. 5 Commission counsel recommends that Mr. Maynard Sam 6 George's testimony be and heard in Toronto as he requests 7 for the following reasons. 8 First, out of respect for Mr. Maynard Sam 9 George in his personal capacity and as a representative 10 of the estate of the late Dudley George. 11 Second, Mr. Maynard Sam George has been of 12 great assistance to the Commission since this Commission 13 was called. His assistance has been invaluable to the 14 work of the Commission. 15 Thirdly, there are not sufficiently 16 compelling reasons not to allow Mr. George to have his 17 testimony heard in Toronto. 18 The involvement of Mr. Sam George in the 19 events surrounding the death of his brother principally 20 revolved around his involvement after the fatal shootings 21 and that's the evidence that will be calling. 22 Mr. George has been in attendance at 23 virtually all days of the Hearing. And it's -- it's 24 important to remember that since the Inquiry was created, 25 Mr. George has been of the view that a portion of the
121 Inquiry should be in Toronto and a portion here and that 2 as I recall his position from the beginning was he wanted 3 to testify in Toronto. 4 We recognize that Mr. Clifford George has 5 been in attendance at virtually all of the days of the 6 Hearing except when he was unable to attend due to 7 illness. Apart from the lawyers and Commission staff, 8 Mr. Clifford George and Mr. Sam George have been the 9 persons who have been in attendance the most. 10 If you decide that you agree to Mr. 11 George's request, we would make arrangements to have the 12 testimony recorded so that Mr. Clifford George and others 13 will have to opportunity to see and hear the evidence of 14 Mr. George in a timely fashion. The transcript will also 15 be posted as usual on our website. 16 It is noted we received in response to the 17 request to the circulation of the request to the Parties, 18 a number of expressions of concern by the Parties 19 regarding Mr. George's request and the reasons for their 20 concern. 21 As I stated in an e-mail to Counsel for 22 Mr. Harris, Mr. Downard, dated February 17th and 23 circulated to all Counsel, and I reiterate today that the 24 concerns are not justified, in particular, I stated in my 25 e-mail:
131 "With respect to the matters raised in 2 your letter we wish to draw your 3 attention to the following: 4 1. One must remember that there is a 5 difference between the Commissioner and 6 Commission Counsel. The decision as to 7 whether the testimony of Mr. George 8 will be heard in Toronto or Forest is 9 the decision of the Commissioner and 10 not Commission Counsel. 11 2. You said in my e-mail that we 12 intend to recommend that the testimony 13 be heard in Toronto. We also said that 14 before we make our recommendation to 15 the Commissioner, we wish to know if 16 any Party has an objection to Mr. 17 George's testimony being heard in 18 Toronto and the basis for that 19 objection. 20 3. Our e-mail dated February 16, 2005, 21 does not endorse the reasons advanced 22 by Mr. George in his letter. You 23 should not assume, nor would it be 24 correct to assume, that we accept or 25 agree with the reasons set out by Mr.
141 George in his letter. 2 4. We do not agree that by stating 3 that we intend to recommend that Mr. 4 George's testimony be heard in Toronto, 5 that a precedent is being set; this 6 request is confined to one (1) 7 individual. 8 If there are other requests, they will 9 be considered on their merits, and 10 5. We need not -- we did not mean by 11 the statement in my e-mail, quote: 12 "His efforts in September 1995 to have 13 this Public Inquiry called". Close 14 quote 15 "That we agree that the efforts made by 16 Mr. George are relevant to the mandate 17 of the Commission." Close quote. 18 The position of Commission Counsel is as I 19 stated, that we recommend that the request be granted. 20 We recommend it for the three (3) reasons that I 21 advanced. Commission Counsel does not accept, Commission 22 Counsel does not agree with the reasons advanced by Mr. 23 George. 24 The foundation of, particularly, the first 25 reason is a hotly, as I said earlier, contested fact in
151 this proceeding and one cannot make any decision based 2 about that fact today; that has to wait the -- the 3 conclusion of all of the evidence, hearing all of the 4 evidence and the findings that you make at the end. 5 We -- if you agree that the request should 6 be granted, we will have to make arrangements for a 7 Hearing Room and to determine a date in Toronto, but that 8 should not cause any undue delay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. Millar. In view -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I hope I fairly 12 stated everyone's position, as I understand it. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you 14 haven't, we'll hear about it. 15 In view of the position taken by my 16 Counsel in this matter, it's not necessary for me to hear 17 from anybody at the moment who supports the request. 18 What I would like to hear from is anybody who opposes the 19 request at this time who wishes to make a submission. 20 Some of you I know have written a letter. 21 I have copies of those letters, but this is an 22 opportunity for the people who oppose the request to make 23 a submission. 24 We don't have any particular order, I 25 guess we can follow the same general order that we do
161 with cross-examination, so I guess, Ms. Esmonde, that 2 would make you first. 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Good morning, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 Now, as Mr. Millar outlined this morning, 6 a major factor in the decision to hold the Inquiry in 7 Forest was so that it could be accessible to those who 8 are most directly affected. 9 And the Aazhoodena and George Family Group 10 agreed with that decision at the time and we continue to 11 agree with it today. In fact our clients would have 12 preferred had it been possible, that this Inquiry had 13 been held at Stoney Point. 14 We agree with Mr. Sam George, that a 15 number of the key events surrounding the death of Dudley 16 George did originate in Toronto that the subject matter 17 of this Inquiry does involve events that occurred in 18 Toronto, however, in our view the place to answer for 19 that is here in Forest in the community that was directly 20 affected. 21 And we see no reason to deviate from that 22 principle here. Subject to any questions, those are all 23 my comments, thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 25 thank you very much. I think Mr. Harris -- Mr. Downard
171 is next if you have any submission. 2 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Only briefly, sir, 3 because Commission counsel has fairly stated my position. 4 Our client wants to follow this Inquiry wherever you 5 choose to take it. And we took strong objection to the 6 reasons that Mr. George advanced in his letter and the 7 manner in which they were advanced. 8 But Commission Counsel has addressed that 9 appropriately. And so we're in your hands, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. There's nobody here on behalf of Mr. Harnick 12 or Mr. Runciman; is that correct? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's correct. But 14 Ms. Spies and you have -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 16 her -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- her submissions and 18 her submission is basically about the reasons -- concern 19 about the reasons but she -- as I read it she still 20 objects but it's basically because of the reasons 21 advanced by -- for the move. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there 23 anybody wish to make any oral submissions? 24 Counsel on behalf of Mr. Hodgson? 25 Counsel on behalf of Mr. Beaubien, Mr.
181 Sulman? 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Good morning, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 morning. 6 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I am, as you know, 7 counsel for Marcel Beaubien who was the MPP for all the 8 citizens of the Ipperwash area during the relevant time 9 and further for eight (8) years between 1995 and October 10 of 2003 and it is for this reason that we take a somewhat 11 stronger position as the representative at the time of 12 all the people. And it's in light of his role that we're 13 going to make a somewhat lengthy submission so you have 14 that on the record. 15 While we respect Sam George as the 16 representative of his family and as a person and on a 17 personal note for me, it's having been involved in the 18 litigation for almost seven (7) years before this, 19 personal respect for Sam as -- as a person. 20 And we sympathize with he and his family's 21 loss of a loved one, but that is not what this decision 22 ought to be made -- the basis on which this decision 23 ought to be made and that's not the issue at hand. 24 It is beyond dispute that the shooting of 25 Dudley George occurred in Lambton County and it's beyond
191 dispute that Maynard Sam George resides in Lambton 2 County. And to this point there is no evidence before 3 this Inquiry that the shooting of Dudley George 4 originated anywhere other than in Lambton County; at the 5 corner -- at or near Army Camp Road and East Parkway 6 Drive in the former township of Bosanquet. 7 That is as My Friend pointed out, an issue 8 of hot debate and we've got a long way to go in the 9 evidence. And an unsubstantiated allegation of this 10 nature at this time, is not in our respectful view a 11 principled reason for changing the place for the hearing 12 of evidence to Toronto even if, and we have had some 13 evidence on this, but even if the decision to commence a 14 legal proceeding such as an application for injunction, 15 even if the decision is made in Toronto. Although, I 16 point out that the place for the actual application was 17 to be Sarnia and, in fact, was Sarnia. 18 That's not equivalent to saying that the 19 shooting originated in Toronto. So I just want to -- I 20 think that's an important issue to get out of the way and 21 I think we need some detail on that. 22 I think we can all agree that the central 23 seat of the Provincial Government is located in Toronto, 24 so, I just want to -- I think that's an important issue 25 to get out of the way and I think we need some detail on
201 that. 2 I think we can agree that the central seat 3 of the Provincial Government is located in Toronto. 4 That's not to say that there aren't provincial offices, 5 properties in this case, courts, throughout the Province, 6 sometimes even in small rural towns and that the ultimate 7 place for decision making for Provincial Government 8 matters is, at least in theory -- probably only in theory 9 -- at Queen's Park in Toronto. 10 I think it's trite to say that decisions 11 on matters such as Government spending, environmental 12 matters, operation of provincial parks, water regulation, 13 in theory, all emanate in Queen's Park. 14 Now, in the Walkerton tainted water Public 15 Inquiry the decisions for public funding reduction, 16 changes in regulation or testing of laboratories, in 17 theory again, emanated from Queen's Park and in that 18 Inquiry the Premier and Cabinet Ministers testified -- 19 they testified in Walkerton where the tragic deaths 20 occurred, where the whole community was affected, no 21 different than here. 22 The Koebel brothers who were ultimately 23 punished under the criminal law, resided in Walkerton 24 where the events occurred whether the decisions were made 25 in Queen's Park or not, whether the centre of the media
211 is in Toronto or not. The parallel between Walkerton -- 2 the Walkerton Inquiry and the particular question here is 3 clear. 4 While decisions concerning the occupation 5 of a provincially owned park would logically be made by 6 the Provincial Government and evidence that we don't yet 7 have on the record, may reveal the decisions concerning 8 the occupation of the Ipperwash -- the response to the 9 occupation and takeover of the Ipperwash Provincial Park 10 were made at Toronto at Queen's Park, I respectfully 11 suggest to you that's no different than in the Walkerton 12 case. 13 Decisions were there made in Queen's Park 14 also, but that is -- is not, in my respectful submission, 15 a reason to move the hearing of evidence to Toronto for 16 one (1) witness on the basis that the seat of Government 17 is there. 18 There has been -- and I think this is 19 important -- there has been regular attendance of the 20 Public from Lambton County and this is the area where the 21 tragedy occurred. They have regularly attended at the 22 Forest Community Centre, in fact, as My Friend pointed 23 out, Sam George has been here every day and has been 24 willing to attend here every day. 25 And it is our submission that the people
221 of Lambton County, both native and non-native which have 2 been adversely by this shooting. It's affected the 3 entire community, a much broader perspective. 4 It's not the person who resides at the 5 corner of Bay and Bloor Streets in Toronto who has the 6 same interest as those who were most directly affected 7 who reside in Lambton County. These local people have 8 been attending, as you know, Mr. Commissioner, through 9 the bad weather that we've had. 10 It isn't that there's been a sparse 11 attendance. There's been a higher attendance with 12 certain witnesses and lower with others, but there's been 13 attendance, and regular attendance and they should -- the 14 people of Lambton County, should be able to attend the 15 viva voce evidence of Sam George without having to travel 16 to Toronto or incur other expense. 17 Now, I know there's some suggestion with 18 regard to Clifford George and that's laudable, but the 19 same suggestion of video taping can work in reverse. The 20 media -- media members -- if this is about the media 21 members hearing it and I'll go on further on, on that and 22 the seat of Government, but if all they have to do is be 23 called into a room in Toronto where there can be 24 instantaneous connection and they can see exactly, I'm 25 not sure the mountain has to be moved to Mohammed when
231 Mohammed can come to the mountain. 2 We have -- this is a -- although we are in 3 rural small-town Ontario, we have become rather 4 sophisticated here. We have wireless computer services 5 here which enables members of the media to 6 instantaneously connect with their headquarters, be it on 7 Front Street in Toronto or elsewhere and in addition to 8 that technology, the television media themselves have 9 technology that allows virtual instantaneous connection 10 and I -- I won't go on much further than that, it's so 11 patently obviously, but if the CBC can broadcast from 12 remote areas like Afghanistan or Baghdad, they certainly 13 can broadcast from areas less remote like Forest or 14 Walkerton and that's what exactly is happening. 15 And if it truly is a national or 16 provincial wide interest in this matter, which is what 17 Mr. George and others submit to you and I agree with 18 that, then simply by issuing a press release and --and 19 indicating on this day Sam George will be giving 20 evidence, then the national and provincial media, if 21 there is such interest, will attend. 22 The attendance at the Walkerton Inquiry 23 wasn't every day with national media, but as people 24 attended, as Mr. Harris attended, there was certainly 25 national media there and that's only logical.
241 The media, as I would suggest, has the 2 financial ability to attend here and this is, in my 3 respectful submission, principally about media. If it's 4 truly a national interest story, they would have the self 5 interest to travel to Forest to cover Sam George's 6 testimony. They are financially better able to travel to 7 Forest than the people of Lambton to travel to Toronto. 8 And we should recognize that if My Friends 9 or if Mr. George's suggestion is correct and that the 10 coverage is newsworthy, it's in fact their job to attend 11 as opposed to the citizens of Lambton who are not being 12 paid to attend but it can because it has such impact on 13 their lives and will have ongoing impact on their lives, 14 whatever decision comes out of this. 15 If the place of Hearing, sir, would be 16 changed on the basis of one (1) witness's request when I 17 respectfully suggest to you, all, recognizing this isn't 18 court of law, but recognizing that all indicia of a 19 convenient forum is here in Lambton County then to be 20 fair to all witnesses, they should have a right to elect 21 a place where they wish to give their evidence. 22 And -- and I suggest that can only lead to 23 chaos. While we respect -- we may respect Sam George and 24 agree that he's an important person, he has an important 25 concern here, so do others -- so, do others, such as the
251 family members, other family members who are not as 2 supportive as you've heard, local citizens and those 3 whose reputations have been sullied by innuendo. 4 And to be fair to all, and I believe 5 that's what this Commission's approach is and to be 6 balanced, then all should be treated equally. Should any 7 witness then be entitled to elect the location for their 8 testimony? I think that would be inappropriate and I 9 think it's inappropriate here. 10 The taking of evidence of one (1) witness 11 in a location other than the location of Forest though, I 12 would suggest would be reasonable if a witness due to 13 some logical reason and principled reason such as an 14 infirmity is unable to travel to Forest, but when the 15 witness in the case here has travelled to Forest every 16 day because he lives in Lambton County, that principle 17 would not apply. 18 And it -- logic says and I might as well 19 be forthright about it, this application is to 20 convenience the media. It's to draw media attention and 21 that is the only reason is my respectful submission. I 22 suggest that is an improper reason to have this evidence 23 heard in Toronto and if accepted, it's the thin edge of 24 the wedge as the arguments made by Mr. George would 25 equally apply to all witnesses.
261 OBJ MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 2 Commissioner, I'm sorry, I have to object. My Friend 3 said this was the only reason and it's just patently not 4 the case and I just -- I can't let that stay on the 5 records. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's better 7 if you don't interrupt in a middle of a submission, Mr. 8 Klippenstein. 9 Carry on, Mr. Sulman. 10 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, Mr. 11 Commissioner. I didn't say it was the only reason. I 12 said it's my respectful submission that this is the 13 reason. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: In fact, I'll go on 16 to speak to the other reasons. With regard to Mr. 17 George's comments on the personal stake of the public all 18 of Toronto which he gives as another reason. 19 I would suggest that the question of 20 police use in protests that he also refers to in his 21 letter you'll recall, the question of police use in 22 protests other than situations similar to this takeover 23 of public property by an Aboriginal group is not within 24 the mandate of this Inquiry. 25 I would not expect the Commission report,
271 with respect, would touch on all police -- police use in 2 all protests of all kinds. 3 And secondly, I point out that safe 4 drinking water and the regulation thereof which was the 5 centrepiece of the Walkerton Inquiry unquestionably is a 6 matter in which all citizens of Ontario who use water, I 7 don't say that's that every person in Ontario but it is 8 the vast majority, all citizens of Ontario would have 9 more personal stake in that issue. And the evidence in 10 that Inquiry was heard in Walkerton where the tragic 11 deaths occurred. 12 And third, is the issue of the legitimacy 13 of this process by taking control of provincial lands. 14 It's still very much an open issue. We can't say, as the 15 letter seems to suggest, that there's been an affirmative 16 decision on that. 17 That's still very much an open issue in 18 this Inquiry if you take a balanced approach to it. Mr. 19 George urges on you finally that Toronto is closest to 20 the present decision makers and it is our respectful 21 submission that this is a rather facile suggestion. 22 When the time comes, I think this is very 23 important, when the time comes for the "decision makers" 24 in quotation marks, from Mr. George's letter, to make a 25 decision, it should be on the basis of your written
281 report. They will have the opportunity to read it 2 wherever they want, be it in Toronto or wherever else 3 they may be located, but any action by the present 4 decision makers should be based on your report at the end 5 of the Proceeding and not on the basis of hearing a 6 single witness. 7 So, it matters not whether his evidence is 8 given in Toronto, in fact, it's my submission, Mr. 9 Commissioner, that the so-called decision makers ought 10 not to be hearing individual witnesses' submissions 11 because only doing that might bias their decision. They 12 should properly wait until you, Mr. Commissioner, having 13 heard all the witnesses, having digested all of the 14 information in context and having come up with the 15 decision. 16 So, I don't -- it's my submission that the 17 suggestion that being in Toronto, being closer to the 18 decision makers is of no help to you in making a decision 19 on whether this Witness should be heard in Toronto, in 20 fact, it -- it really, quite frankly, is -- is of little 21 consequence. 22 It's our submission, sir, that this 23 request is really made in order to convenience the media 24 -- Toronto-based media and that is not a principled 25 reason.
291 With respect, sir, and -- and I -- I say 2 this with respect to the process, particularly and to you 3 and to Mr. George, it strikes me as wrong for the person 4 who is has requested the Inquiry in the first place, who 5 has been in Forest every day, day in and day out, and I 6 don't say this to hurt anyone's feelings, but I think it 7 has to be placed on the record, that's my obligation, I 8 think it's wrong for -- for that person to say, If I 9 don't get to give my evidence where I want to give my 10 evidence, that I won't cooperate, you'll have to summons 11 me and you'll have to bring me physically. 12 I submit that's just wrong to place the 13 Commission and the Commissioner in that position. 14 In conclusion, it is my position that any 15 decision to hear evidence of a witness should be based on 16 the interest of the Public. This is, after all, a Public 17 Inquiry, an inquiry public made up of both native and 18 non-native persons and it should be in the interest of 19 the Public most affected by this tragedy, namely the 20 people of Lambton County, not on the basis of convenience 21 of media and not on the basis of desire for publicity and 22 not on the basis of requests of any one (1) witness, 23 unless it's based on a witness who has an infirmity or 24 has some logical reason. 25 This tragedy, not unlike the Walkerton
301 tainted water tragedy, occurred in small town, rural 2 Ontario and like the Walkerton Inquiry, the proper place 3 for the hearing of the evidence is at the closest 4 practical location to where the tragedy occurred and 5 continues to affect native and non-native citizens of 6 Lambton County. 7 Finally, sir, there is in the second-to- 8 last paragraph in the -- in Mr. George's February 15th 9 letter -- I'm not sure whether you have that before you, 10 sir? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I 12 do. 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: But, I'll -- I can 14 give you a minute to turn that up. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Second last 16 paragraph? 17 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 19 paragraph that begins with, "Furthermore"? 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Furthermore. Should 21 I read it onto the record, sir? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: If Mr. -- I know we 24 all have the letter, but I think it might be better if it 25 were on the record. This is -- I'm quoting from the
311 letter of February 15th of Mr. Sam George to Mr. Derry 2 Millar. And it reads in the second-to-last paragraph: 3 "Furthermore, we believe that no public 4 discussion of this request..." 5 That being his request to transfer to 6 Toronto: 7 "...could be dealt with fully and 8 fairly unless the confidential tapes 9 that were the subject of an earlier 10 motion are publicly disclosed because 11 we believe they are critical evidence 12 for some of the principles underlying 13 my request." End of quote. 14 Now, I -- I won't give you lengthy 15 submissions on that, but I want to put forward my concern 16 that in that second-to-last paragraph it raises a concern 17 beyond the request for his evidence to be heard in 18 Toronto. 19 And it makes a puzzling reference to the 20 taped conversations which were the subject matter of an 21 earlier motion. This reference, sir, and I put it 22 forward to you, gives me concern and should give all of 23 us concern that there will be or might be -- and I can't 24 tell what the wording means, but I can only read between 25 the lines, there might be some attempt to obtain through
321 the back door that which was denied through the front 2 door in a lengthy argument we all had before you several 3 months ago. 4 I -- I don't know what it means but I 5 think it should give you concern too, sir, and I just 6 want to bring that forward. If the evidence is heard in 7 Toronto, if what this means as if the evidence is heard 8 in Toronto will be an attempt to reveal context of tape - 9 - the tape out of context and out of order, that gives me 10 grave concern and it should give the Commission concern 11 and I'm sure it would give other Counsel concern. 12 And I trust, sir, that in any decision you 13 make with regard to the calling of the Witness you will 14 examine the letter and you will examine the intent -- 15 meaning of the reference in this paragraph so we keep our 16 process which I think -- which is -- not only do I think, 17 I know and I support the process and that's why I'm 18 standing here, I want to keep the process clean and I'm 19 sure the Commission does also. 20 And should there be steps necessary to 21 ensure that that which was denied several months ago 22 doesn't come through the back door whether your decision 23 is to hear the evidence of Mr. George in Toronto or hear 24 it here which I submit is the proper location. 25 In any event, I would request that you
331 take such steps as you may deem necessary to protect that 2 evidence coming in through the back door and -- and 3 keeping the process pure to your earlier decision. 4 Those -- I appreciate taking your time to 5 do this, sir, and those are my respectful submissions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Sulman. 8 Counsel for Deb Hutton? Yes? 9 MS. ERIN TULLY: Just before that, I'm 10 Counsel for Christopher Hodgson -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 12 sorry. 13 MS. ERIN TULLY: -- and I just want to 14 say that we -- the Commission counsel has accurately 15 relayed our position and we don't object to the request, 16 just the submissions in support of the request. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 Does anybody else -- yes, counsel on behalf of Deb 19 Hutton? 20 Is there anybody else who wishes to speak 21 against the motion other than Counsel for Deb Hutton. 22 No, so this is the last one. 23 MS. MELISSA PANJER: Mr. Commissioner, 24 Mr. Millar stated that Ms. Hutton objects to the request. 25 We do not formally oppose Mr. George's request that his
341 testimony be heard in Toronto, however, we do have 2 concerns with respect to the reasons he and his Counsel 3 have put forward in support of his request and which we 4 raised in a letter to Mr. Millar. 5 We also agree with the written submissions 6 of Ms. Spies with respect to the -- her objections to the 7 reasons advanced by Mr. George. Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Sorry, Ms. Jones, you wish to speak on this? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 11 just wanted to indicate briefly that the concerns of the 12 OPPA are that decisions regarding venue either in general 13 or for specific witnesses ought to be made on a principle 14 basis. 15 You had determined that at least for the 16 most part that Forest was the appropriate venue and you - 17 - and you surely do have discretion to change that and 18 you've indicated in the past that you're going to 19 consider that. 20 Mr. Commissioner, in terms of looking at 21 venue on an individual witness's basis, our position is 22 that all the parties at this Proceeding and the vast 23 majority of the witnesses who are appearing for parties, 24 have significant stakes in this proceeding for the 25 reasons that were set out earlier to you.
351 They all have interest in stake here and 2 they all ought to be treated on a principle basis and 3 fairly. And we agree with the submissions that have been 4 made to you today both in writing and orally about the 5 reasons set out in Mr. George's letter. 6 And in addition, we would assume that all 7 the parties in this Proceeding and the witnesses have the 8 respect and will be treated respectfully and fairly by 9 Commission Counsel and by the Commissioner. 10 And we can certainly see some 11 circumstances where an individual would not be able to 12 testify in Forest and one (1) was given to you already 13 that they were unable to do so. 14 But other than that there ought to be a 15 principle basis to move and if the reason given by 16 Counsel is -- by your Commission Counsel, is for respect 17 for Mr. George, we would anticipate that all witnesses 18 that come would be treated with respect as would all 19 parties. 20 And it leaves open the possibility as was 21 said earlier, that unless there are principled and 22 substantive reasons for moving either the venue in 23 general or for a witness, if someone prefers to testify 24 in a location other than Forest and they're granted that, 25 we would expect that that same consideration would be
361 given to all witnesses in this Proceeding. 2 And if you're motivated to grant the 3 request out of respect for Mr. George, we would 4 anticipate that you would accede to similar requests from 5 other witnesses who prefer to testify for whatever reason 6 in another venue. 7 It may well, as was set out earlier, leave 8 it open for a chaotic situation for the Commission in 9 terms of acceding to requests, which is why we come back 10 to our first point, which is that decisions ought to be 11 made in a way that is fair and appears fair and the most 12 consistent way to do that is to have a principle that's 13 applied equally to the witnesses and to the parties. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I don't 17 know if anyone else wishes to speak, but Mr. Clifford 18 George would like to address you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 20 fine. Good morning, Mr. George. 21 MR. CLIFFORD GEORGE: Good morning, sir. 22 I didn't know this was going to happen or I would have 23 written down my statements, but as it is, I think I can 24 remember what I need -- need to say -- the most essential 25 part of -- of this Inquiry.
371 It would do irreparable damage here to -- 2 to -- if we moved it over there for -- just for sake of 3 one (1) person and not only that, but he does not 4 represent the death of Dudley George completely. There 5 are many, many other families that are against this and 6 for that reason and -- and not only that, but a third 7 reason is there -- there's lots of us who would not even 8 be able to attend, me for medical reasons and the other 9 people for -- for family reasons that cannot leave the 10 premises for any length of time and the money. We 11 haven't got the money to be travelling here and there. 12 And the whole community is getting very 13 interested in here -- that's the surrounding area. I 14 hear good reports on -- on the way this -- this Inquiry 15 is turning for the good, to bring it out what this 16 Inquiry is supposed to be for. But, that -- I think 17 that's about all I can say. Thank you, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Mr. George. Is that it, then? I'm going to-- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't know if Mr. 21 Klippenstein wants to add anything. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm going to 23 take a break. That's it, that's all the people who are 24 speaking against. That's all I want to hear from at the 25 moment.
381 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I just want to 2 make a couple of comments with respect to -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When we come 4 back. Just before you go on, I may want to hear from Mr. 5 Klippenstein, but I want -- 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: My submission 7 will be two (2) minutes or less, so if you wish to hear 8 it now, then -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps we'll 11 take a short break and then you can -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would like 13 to take a short break and then hear from you if 14 necessary, Mr. Klippenstein, and then we'll make a 15 decision. Thank you very much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 17 for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 9:50 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 9:55 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. Mr. Klippenstein, I would like to hear from
391 you. I'd like to hear from anybody who would like to 2 speak in favour of the Motion, but I definitely would 3 like to hear from you now. 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. I don't propose to -- to go into a lot of 6 details. I think Commission Counsel has very helpfully 7 outlined the various positions and I would note that 8 almost all parties do not object to the substance of Mr. 9 George's request. 10 A number -- secondly, a number of parties 11 have referred to the need to deal with an issue such as 12 this on principle and I just wouldn't want it to be 13 thought that Mr. George's request did not proceed on 14 principle, because his request does include a number of 15 principles that Commission Counsel read out, including 16 where the events took place and the location of affected 17 population. 18 Now it maybe that it's not for this 19 Commission at this time to fully debate those issues but 20 Mr. George's request is a principled request and I don't 21 want the wrong impression left on that point. 22 Secondly, Mr. Clifford George raised some 23 concerns and I think that Sam George and the family 24 tremendously appreciate all that Clifford George has done 25 over the years and his attendance here. I would note
401 that he is almost unique in his dedication to physically 2 attending here and if the Commission is seriously 3 considering this request, it might be that some very 4 special accommodation assistance to Clifford George 5 including transportation and accommodation probably 6 wouldn't change Mr. Clifford George's mind, but might be 7 a fair thing to offer. 8 Those are all my submissions, unless you 9 have some questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much, Mr. Klippenstein. 12 Now, everybody has indicated or has had 13 their positions indicated by my Counsel but I would like 14 to give anybody who wishes to speak in favour of the 15 request, an opportunity to do so, if you wish to. 16 If not, I intend to reserve my decision at 17 this point. 18 If anybody wishes to make an oral 19 submission -- Mr. Millar? I'm sorry, Mr. Eyolfson, you 20 do? 21 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Good morning, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 morning, Mr. Eyolfson. 25 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: ALST supports Mr.
411 George's request to have his evidence heard in Toronto 2 for essentially the same reasons indicated by Mr. Millar, 3 first and foremost, out of respect for Mr. George, both 4 personally and as a representative for the Estate of 5 Dudley George and in light of his efforts to date to have 6 this Inquiry called. 7 In addition, ALST submits that the events 8 surrounding the death of Dudley George and the questions 9 raised by those events in these Proceedings are relevant 10 to people all across Ontario and, I would submit, 11 especially of concern to aboriginal people across the 12 Province. 13 And there are real benefits to holding 14 portions of these Hearings in more than one location in 15 terms of raising public awareness, of the process of the 16 important issues being addressed in the process and 17 increasing public accessibility. 18 Hearing the evidence of Mr. George in 19 Toronto would provide an opportunity for more people to 20 access the Commission's Hearings, including aboriginal 21 people who are affected by the broader issues raised in 22 these Proceedings. 23 As we explained in our original 24 application materials, the Toronto Aboriginal community 25 is quite large and diverse. It's estimated at between
421 forty and seventy thousand (70,000) people and that makes 2 it one (1) of the largest, if not the largest, aboriginal 3 communities in Canada. 4 ALST never understood that these Hearings 5 would all be taking place in one (1) location as Mr. 6 Millar pointed out Rule 2 of the Rules of Practice and 7 Procedure refer to the Hearings taking place in both 8 Toronto and Forest. 9 As well, the Commission's website notes 10 that while the bulk of the Hearings will take place in 11 Forest they're subject to the Commissioner's discretion 12 and even the consideration of the circumstances of 13 particular witnesses. 14 And while we feel it's important that a 15 significant portion of the Hearings take place in Forest 16 near the community where the incidents took place, we 17 believe for the above reasons that there are benefits to 18 holding at least the evidence of one (1) witness in 19 Toronto and we support the request. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. Mr. Millar...? Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, sir? 22 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: Good morning, Mr. 23 Commissioner, my name is Matthew Horner and I represent 24 Chiefs of Ontario. 25 The Chiefs of Ontario do support
431 Commission Counsel's position that these -- that at least 2 some witnesses in the particular circumstances such as 3 Mr. George should be able to provide their testimony in 4 Toronto if -- if that needs -- if they so desire. 5 The reasons have been put forth by Mr. -- 6 by Mr. Millar and so I don't want to go on those again, 7 although I would submit that some parties have raised the 8 point that -- that public access through the media is 9 somehow an irrelevant or inappropriate consideration for 10 you and we would submit that given the public function of 11 a Commission of Inquiry and the social function that such 12 Inquiries serve, that ensuring that the broadest scope of 13 Ontario and Canadian society is able to hear the -- the - 14 - and bear witness to the -- the hearings of the Inquiry 15 is not an inappropriate consideration. 16 And while it is very important that the 17 primary location of these Hearings has been in Forest, 18 there are different schools of thought and if one (1) 19 particular witness in -- in -- not inconvenient and 20 appropriate circumstance would -- would like to give 21 their testimony in Toronto, The Chiefs of Ontario are 22 generally supportive of such -- such actions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. Anybody else? No? 25 Mr. Millar...?
441 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to 2 address a couple of things; make a couple of points. 3 Firstly, I certainly appreciate the 4 comments of Mr. Clifford George which I had not heard 5 before this morning and the sentiments that he expresses. 6 I wanted to say that Mr. Sulman spoke about the tapes and 7 that because there's a reference in the letter, I would 8 not expect and I did not take that reference as an 9 attempt by Mr. George to do something through the back 10 door that's already been ruled on and I would not expect 11 that to happen and it just won't happen. 12 The issue raised by Ms. Jones about 13 respect; the Commission respects all witnesses -- we've - 14 - and will respect all witnesses and if other witnesses 15 have a requested, then it will be considered. It's not - 16 - I don't think that this leads to -- this particular 17 request leads to the chaos as some people have suggested 18 and -- but the -- those -- I really don't have anything 19 else to add other than I had not heard from Mr. Clifford 20 George before today. 21 And I must say that Mr. -- when I -- when 22 I talked about the people who had been in attendance 23 virtually all the time I missed Mr. Mark George who's 24 been here virtually every day as well. Thank you, 25 Commissioner.
451 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. I intend to reserve making a decision in this 3 matter. Hopefully not for long, perhaps by the end of 4 the week. But if not, early next week. It does not 5 interfere with our flow of witnesses. Mr. George was not 6 going to be the next witness nor the one after. 7 So, if I don't make the decision today or 8 tomorrow, it will not interfere with our normal 9 procedure. But I assure you I will make every effort to, 10 during the course of the day and tomorrow, to make a 11 decision before the end of the week if I possibly can. 12 So, now I know we've already had a recess 13 but I think I would like to have a short break. Is Ms. 14 Hensel calling the next witness? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Hensel's going to 16 lead Mr. Kaczanowski so it might be appropriate to have a 17 short, maybe ten (10) minute, break and then we'll start 18 with Mr. Kaczanowski. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we 20 should be able to complete the evidence of the two (2) 21 witnesses that we have lined up for the balance of today 22 and tomorrow? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Yes, I hope so. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 25 have a short break now.
461 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would be -- I would 2 be surprised if we couldn't. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thanks. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for ten (10) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 10:05 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 10:20 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, 17 Commissioner. Our next witness is Constable Wallace 18 Kaczanowski. He is in the room. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 morning, Constable. 21 MR. WALLACE KACZANOWSKI: Good morning. 22 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 23 Kaczanowski. Do you prefer to swear on the Bible, affirm 24 or use an alternate oath, sir? 25 MR. WALLACE KACZANOWSKI: I'll swear on
471 the Bible. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. Take the 3 Bible in your right hand please and state your name in 4 full. 5 MR. WALLACE KACZANOWSKI: Wallace Gregory 6 Kaczanowski. 7 THE REGISTRAR: And could you spell your 8 name for us please? 9 THE WITNESS: K-A-C-Z-A-N-O-W-S-K-I. 10 11 WALLACE GREGORY KACZANOWSKI, Sworn 12 13 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 14 Q: Good morning, Constable. Should I be 15 addressing you as Constable Kaczanowski? 16 A: That's fine. 17 Q: Thank you. I'm just going to start 18 with some questions about you -- your personal background 19 and your family history. What is your date of birth, 20 sir? 21 A: December 6th, 1955. 22 Q: And who are your parents? 23 A: William and Irene Kaczanowski. 24 Q: And are either of them a member of 25 the Band at Kettle and Stony Point First Nation?
481 A: My mother was. She's deceased now. 2 Q: Okay. And what is her maiden name? 3 A: Bressette. 4 Q: Okay. Where do you currently reside? 5 A: Fort Franks, Ontario. 6 Q: And you were born in Sarnia? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Where were you raised? 9 A: My first four (4) years of life was 10 in Kettle -- Kettle Point and then we moved to 11 California. 12 Q: And how long did you live in 13 California? 14 A: Until 1991. 15 Q: All right. And what did you do in -- 16 where did you move in 1991? 17 A: I first moved back to Sarnia and then 18 several months later to Kettle Point. 19 Q: I understand, sir, that you served in 20 the US military? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Around what time was that? 23 A: '74 to '77 in the United States Air 24 Force. 25 Q: And what duties did you perform?
491 A: I was considered an air passenger 2 specialist. 3 Q: And can you describe briefly what -- 4 what you did in that capacity? 5 A: My duties were that of, same as an 6 airline specialist, where conducting military flights, 7 handle baggage, ticket agents. 8 Q: For the US Air Force? 9 A: For the US Air Force. 10 Q: Thank you. And you hold dual US and 11 Canadian citizenship? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. I'm going to move now 14 onto some areas around your professional background as a 15 police officer. 16 I understand that you underwent your 17 initial police training in Aylmer, Ontario? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Around what time was that, what year? 20 A: June 14th, 1992. 21 Q: Okay. And how long was that course? 22 A: At that time it was thirteen (13) 23 weeks. 24 Q: And can you tell us, if you can 25 recall, the name of the course?
501 A: Aylmer Basic College. 2 Q: Okay. And what were you taught? In 3 a general way, what were you taught in that course? 4 A: Basic rules of a police officer, 5 general areas of the Provincial and Federal Laws. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And a lot of officer safety 8 techniques. 9 Q: Okay. I understand that after you 10 successfully completed that course, you began policing as 11 a police constable with First Nations policing at Kettle 12 Point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Kettle and Stony Point? And that you 15 have worked as a police officer at Kettle and Stony Point 16 First Nations since that time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Can you describe for us, briefly, 19 what other police training you would have received since 20 then? 21 A: I've received marine basic training, 22 I've received major -- major crime investigation, family 23 violence investigation, youth crime investigation, 24 general investigation techniques, SOCO investigations. 25 Q: Can you tell us what SOCO is?
511 A: That was scenes of crime 2 investigation. 3 Q: All right. And as any -- as part of 4 any of those training programs, have you received 5 training in negotiations and conflict resolution? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Thank you. Okay, I'm going to take 8 you now to the period between 1992 and 1995. Can you 9 describe the command structure that you were subject to 10 at that time as a police officer at Kettle and Stony 11 Point? 12 A: As a First Nations officer, we were a 13 program within the OPP structure -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: Our policing orders would come down 16 through Forest Detachment through Sergeant Bressette and 17 to the officers on duty. 18 Q: Okay. So, you did take direction, if 19 indirectly, from the OPP? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Would you have taken direction 22 at various times, I'm not asking you to describe these 23 times, but directly from the OPP and not through Sergeant 24 Bressette, for example, if he was not on duty at the 25 time?
521 A: If the situation called, yes. 2 Q: And at that time, I understand that 3 Miles Bressette was a Staff Sergeant? 4 A: In '92? 5 Q: In '92. 6 A: I'm not sure if it was '92 or '93 but 7 when I first came on he was a Sergeant and became a Staff 8 Sergeant at a later time. 9 Q: Okay. And I understand he was also 10 given the title Chief of Police at some time around that 11 period? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. But that came from the Band 14 Council? 15 A: I believe so. 16 Q: Chief and council? 17 A: I believe so. 18 Q: During that period, can you describe 19 or characterize the relationship that you had with the 20 OPP on -- in the course of your day-to-day policing 21 operations? 22 A: My experience with the OPP officers 23 at that time were very favourable. We got along well, 24 worked together well. We would back them up when needed, 25 and in turn they would back us up when we needed them.
531 Q: Okay. Would you describe those 2 relations -- relations as respectful? 3 A: Respectful, yes. 4 Q: And friendly? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay, and I understand that police 7 operations at Kettle and Stony Point First Nations were 8 overseen by the OPP Detachment in Forest, Ontario? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you know who the Commanding 11 Officer was at that Detachment? 12 A: I believe there were several during 13 that time. There might have been an Inspector Lacroix or 14 Inspector Carson. 15 Q: Okay. And finally in this area, I 16 understand that until 1997, your police service did work 17 under the direction of the OPP but that changed in 1997 18 when the Anishnaabeg Police Service took over policing of 19 -- the policing of Kettle Point? 20 A: Yes, that's correct. 21 Q: Okay. And you've worked under 22 Anishnaabeg Police Service direction since that time? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Do you currently report to the 25 OPP in any way as police officer?
541 A: No. No. 2 Q: Okay. Okay, let me take you back now 3 to 1992. We understand from other witnesses there was an 4 incident during that time that occurred at Kettle and 5 Stony Point First Nation involving an individual by the 6 name of Darryl Lee George? 7 Can you describe that incident for us? 8 A: Darryl George was wanted for assault 9 on a female. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: And he had got information that he 12 was wanted -- he was wanted by the police. He had called 13 the Kettle Point Detachment, I believe around 11:30 that 14 evening and indicated that if the police wanted him, that 15 they would have to come to him and they were to bring 16 their lunch, because he wasn't going to come willingly. 17 Q: And what happened after that? 18 A: I gave this information to Sergeant 19 Bressette. Sergeant Bressette had information that 20 Darryl George may have a AK-47 and then Sergeant 21 Bressette had ordered or contacted Forest Detachment and 22 a plan was put in place. 23 Q: Were you aware of what that plan was? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And what was -- what did you -
551 - what information did you have at that point? 2 A: We were aware Darryl George was -- he 3 was a located at a residence on Tecumseh Drive, Kettle 4 Point and the TRU Team was brought in. 5 Q: And did you see -- were you involved 6 with -- with the operations of the TRU Team at that time? 7 A: If I recall correctly, once the TRU 8 Team arrived, my involvement was very little as they have 9 their own plan in place. Mine was merely observation at 10 a checkpoint, not a checkpoint, just an observation 11 point. 12 Q: And that was on the reserve? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you recall how many officers -- 15 OPP officers attended at the reserve? 16 A: No, number wise, no. But there was 17 quite a few. 18 Q: Would you say more than a hundred 19 (100)? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. 22 A: No. 23 Q: More than twenty (20)? 24 A: I would say around that figure, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And how did that situation --
561 how was that situation resolved? 2 A: Darryl George ended up giving himself 3 up. 4 Q: And do you know how that -- the 5 events that led up to him doing so? 6 A: The TRU Team had the house 7 surrounded. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: At one point in time, Bernard George 10 attended the scene and had walked up and talked to Darryl 11 at the house. When Bernard left, there was some time in 12 between that and later on Sergeant Bressette and 13 Constable John Peltier pulled up in front of the 14 residence. Sergeant Bressette walked up to the house and 15 Darryl had given himself up. 16 Q: Okay, and did you witness Sergeant 17 Bressette approaching the house? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And you saw him take Darryl 20 George into custody? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did you ever speak to Darryl 23 George about the reasons for him giving himself up? 24 A: No. 25 Q: I'm going to take you now to 1993.
571 We understand that on May 6 of 1993, many people moved 2 into Camp Ipperwash to occupy it. Prior to May 6th of 3 1993, what did you know in your personal capacity as a 4 Band member, about the Stoney Point or the land issues 5 surrounding Stoney Point? 6 A: Well, I moved on to Kettle Point in 7 1991, prior to that I had no knowledge of the Camp 8 Ipperwash issue. Since then I have acquired knowledge 9 that the land had been appropriated through the War 10 Measures Act and since had not been returned to the First 11 Nations. 12 I had knowledge that it was getting to the 13 point where people were frustrated because the land was 14 not returned and they'd gotten quite upset again -- 15 further that the land was now going to be used as -- as a 16 cadet training camp. 17 Q: And as a police officer, did you have 18 any -- any knowledge of -- prior to people going into the 19 Army Camp on May 6th, 1993, that such a move was being 20 contemplated? 21 A: What move? 22 Q: To -- to occupy the Army Camp or 23 parts of the Army Camp? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Around that time how many police
581 officers were staffing the Kettle and Stony Point First 2 Nation police detachment? 3 A: Seven (7). 4 Q: Can you describe for us how you 5 learned that people had, in fact, gone into Camp 6 Ipperwash? 7 A: I don't recall if I was on duty when 8 it happened or if I was -- if I was rest days, vacation, 9 I'm not sure, but it -- it was a big -- biggest thing 10 happening at that time. 11 Q: So, you would have heard immediately? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: But you cannot recall -- 14 A: I can't recall how I found that out. 15 Q: So, you can't recall whether you 16 learned of that in your official capacity as a police 17 officer or just through word of mouth in the community? 18 A: Well, I believe if -- once I found 19 out I -- I became a -- a police officer because I'm sure 20 I was called to duty to assist in whatever was needed. 21 Q: Can you recall actually being called 22 to duty at that time? 23 A: No, but I'm assuming that that's what 24 would have took place. 25 Q: Okay. And I think we should deal
591 with something at this point. I understand, Constable 2 Kaczanowski that you don't currently have access to 3 anything but a few very small pieces of your police 4 notebooks from that time period? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And do you currently know the 7 location of your police notebooks from the period 1993 to 8 1995? 9 A: I have two (2) notebooks from 1992 10 and 1993 at my detachment and I have one (1) book that's 11 missing -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- from '95. 14 Q: Okay. And do you know the location 15 of that notebook? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. I can tell you, Commissioner, 18 that we have made inquiries through the -- the Band, the 19 OPP, former lawyers for the Band and -- and Constable 20 Kaczanowski, himself, and we have been thus far unable to 21 locate his notebooks for many of the relevant time 22 periods, so, he is -- and we do recognize he is at a bit 23 of a disadvantage in that regard. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And if and when --
601 if and when those notebooks are located, they will be 2 produced to the Parties and perhaps we may have more 3 issues to address with Constable Kaczanowski. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 6 Q: During the period 1993, after people 7 went into the Army Camp, but prior to July 29th, of 1995 8 when people went into -- we understand from other 9 witnesses, people went into the built-up area -- during 10 that time period did you ever visit any of the people who 11 were occupying the Camp? 12 A: No. 13 Q: So, in a personal capacity you never 14 visited? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. And did you spend any 17 time at the Camp for any reason during that time period? 18 A: There was one (1) incident where 19 myself and Constable Al Wolfe went into the Army Camp, 20 back into the back -- back area where there are several 21 lakes. 22 I was surprised that Constable Wolfe 23 living in Kettle Point all his life had no knowledge of 24 those lakes and I, myself, like to fish and have fished 25 those lakes. We went back there to take -- to take a
611 look at the lakes. 2 Q: Okay. And how did you enter into the 3 Army Camp? 4 A: We drove through the main gate. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And can you describe what 6 happened next? 7 A: We were back at the lakes and we were 8 approached by, I believe, three (3) vehicles full of 9 occupiers. 10 Q: And what happened next? 11 A: We were told to leave, that we 12 weren't welcome back there. 13 Q: Can you describe the tone of that 14 conversation? 15 A: Hostile to say the least. 16 Q: Okay. And do you recall who you were 17 speaking to? 18 A: Glenn George. 19 Q: Okay. Around what time, if you can 20 recall did that incident occur? 21 A: I believe it would have been -- 22 you're talking about day or night or timeframe? 23 Q: No. What time -- what timeframe in 24 terms of months or years? 25 A: I -- I can't recall.
621 Q: Okay. But, it would have been -- 2 A: It would have been a time when they 3 were occupying the army camp. 4 Q: All right. Okay. Did you enter in a 5 personal capacity, did you enter into the army camp for 6 any other reason during that time? 7 A: I don't recall if it was exactly 8 during that time but I had -- I had been back into those 9 lakes several times either prior to -- it was never after 10 to fish the lakes. I entered it through Outer Drive, I 11 just hopped a fence and went back there fishing that way. 12 Q: Okay. Did you do that regularly, or? 13 A: I believe it's only three (3) times. 14 Q: Did you ever have any discussions 15 with any of the people occupying the camp about the 16 occupation during the time period we're -- we're 17 discussing? 18 A: I -- I'm sure I have in a 19 professional -- in a police status and also as a off duty 20 officer. I'm sure I talked with everybody. Not 21 everybody, but people about it. 22 Q: And can you describe the nature of 23 those conversations? 24 A: Just idle talk. 25 Q: Just idle talk. And as a police
631 officer, did you ever engage in any policing at the army 2 camp -- of the activities of the occupiers? 3 A: There was two (2) separate incidents. 4 1. I was asked by the OPP to go in and 5 speak to a Roger George who had warrants for him. They 6 asked me if I can get Roger to turn himself in. 7 I went in there, I spoke to Roger and at 8 that time Roger asked me to give him an hour and that he 9 would meet me somewhere and turn himself in. 10 Q: And did he in fact, to your 11 knowledge, turn himself in? 12 A: He turned himself into me, yes. 13 Q: Okay. You mentioned two (2) 14 incidents. 15 A: There was a second time when there 16 was a helicopter shooting. 17 Q: Okay. We'll come to that. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I have a few more questions before 20 that. Did you discuss the issue of the occupation with 21 any members of the military; for example, the military 22 police? 23 A: I recall being present at one time 24 shortly after the first portion of the occupation. And 25 they were -- there was an OPP officer and I don't recall
641 who he was and there was some military personnel. They 2 were discussing if the occupation moved into the built-up 3 area, that the plan was that military was going to -- 4 going to surrender peacefully, drop the keys and just 5 leave the area. 6 Q: Can you remember the names or 7 identities of anyone other than yourself that attending 8 that meeting? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And can you give us a rough idea of 11 how long that meeting took place before people entered 12 the built-up area in July of 1995? 13 A: No. It would only be speculation on 14 my part if I said anything. 15 Q: Okay. And that was the -- the only 16 time that you have ever had any direct contact -- I'm 17 sorry, did you say that there were members of the 18 military police at that meeting as well; DND personnel? 19 A: Yes. I -- I don't think it was a 20 scheduled meeting. I think it was something like they 21 were on patrol and we met in one of the barracks and we, 22 you know, it was like a description. If this was to take 23 place and then drop the keys and just leave. I think it 24 was something to that affect. 25 Q: Did you pa -- did your patrols
651 normally take to the area of Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: On the outside of it, 21 Highway and 3 Army Camp Road. Not inside. 4 Q: All right. So, on this occasion you 5 would have been -- how did you have occasion to go inside 6 the Army Camp? 7 A: I don't -- I don't recall it. I just 8 recall having that -- listening to the conversation. I 9 was just a patrol officer, really not having an 10 opportunity for any input during these conversations. 11 Q: All right. And, in general terms, 12 did you ever have any communications with the OPP or were 13 you aware of any protocols with the OPP between your 14 police service and the OPP about the policing of the Army 15 Camp? 16 A: It was my understanding since they 17 were still under DND ruling that the OPP would be doing 18 the policing within the Camp. 19 Q: And you described earlier how your 20 police service was under the OPP umbrella -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- but when you say that the OPP 23 would be policing the Army Camp, you mean the OPP other 24 than the Kettle Point Police Service? 25 A: Yes.
661 Q: And would you, from time to time, 2 ever provide intelligence or other information to the OPP 3 concerning the Occupants of Camp Ipperwash? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did they ever ask you for information 6 about the Occupants of Camp Ipperwash? 7 A: I may have been asked about 8 individuals, I'm not sure, you know, what type of person 9 this person is or -- as far as intelligence I -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- you know, I don't think there was 12 anything I -- I was able to add other than what they 13 already knew. 14 Q: Nothing you would regard as 15 intelligence? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Taking you now to August of 18 1993, you've already referred to it and we have heard 19 from other witnesses about an alleged or an incident 20 involving an allegation of the shooting of a helicopter 21 while it was flying over the Army Camp lands. 22 Were you involved in the investigation of 23 that incident? 24 A: Not with the investigation, no. 25 Q: Okay. And were you involved in any
671 way with policing activities in the area as a result of 2 that incident? 3 A: I believe I was present with OPP 4 officers at one point in time when they entered into the 5 Camp and were conducting a search for firearms. 6 Q: And do you recall why you would have 7 had occasion to accompany the OPP during that search? 8 A: Because I was a police officer. 9 Q: Right. Were you -- were you directed 10 by the OPP to do so? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And I also understand that you 13 attended a checkpoint on Highway 21 -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: With Constable Gerome Bressette 16 (phonetic)? Can you describe your activities at that -- 17 or the purpose of your being at that checkpoint? 18 A: Yeah, we were directed at the early 19 parts of the morning to attend the location on 21 Highway 20 and we were directed to make observation of anybody 21 entering or exiting the Army Camp, but not to stop 22 anybody. 23 Q: Okay. And who were you directed to 24 do -- to do that by? 25 A: I don't have my notes in front of me,
681 I -- I believe it would have been a sergeant out of the 2 Forest Detachment. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall how long you 4 remained at that checkpoint? 5 A: From the time we arrived it was some 6 time in early morning of the same day. 7 Q: So, in total, how many hours would 8 you say you were there? 9 A: I would guess about six (6) hours. 10 Q: Okay. And can you describe why you 11 would have left the checkpoint? 12 A: We were directed to leave. 13 Q: By whom? 14 A: It was my understanding that Chief 15 Tom Bressette had spoken with the OPP and that we were 16 removed from that checkpoint -- 17 Q: Were you told -- 18 A: -- through -- through their 19 discussions. 20 Q: Okay. Were you aware of why Chief 21 Bressette would have done that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And during that time was there 24 a lot of traffic along Highway 21? 25 A: Little to none.
691 Q: Okay. And where was the -- the exact 2 location of that checkpoint? 3 A: If you're familiar with the main 4 entrance to -- at the corner of 21 Highway and Army Camp, 5 I'm going to guess about one (1) mile east -- one (1) to 6 one and a half (1 1/2) mile east. 7 Q: Okay. I'm going to take you now to 8 the period when we understand that occupiers at the Camp 9 moved into the built-up area. We understand that 10 occurred on July 29th, 1995. 11 Were you aware prior to that happening 12 that people were planning to move into the built-up area? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. You had described earlier a 15 meeting where the possibility had been discussed between 16 the OPP and Department of National Defence personnel. 17 At that meeting do you recall if anyone 18 there had any information that that might occur? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And how did you learn that 21 people had moved into the built-up area at the Army Camp? 22 A: I'm not sure if I became aware of it 23 at the first, whether I was on duty or when I attended to 24 work for the first time or again, off duty, or it just 25 happened.
701 Q: Okay. 2 A: Again, I apologize. I don't have my 3 notebook to refer to. 4 Q: We understand that that does make it 5 more difficult for you. And were you aware -- you became 6 aware at some point that people had moved into the built- 7 up area and that the military had left the Army Camp? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Were you involved in any policing 10 activities surrounding that development both with the 11 departure and the entry into the built-up area of the 12 occupants? 13 A: I don't believe so. 14 Q: Okay. To your knowledge were any of 15 your fellow officers at Kettle and Stony Point First 16 Nation involved in any policing activities? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Can you recall if you had any 19 communication with members of the OPP about this 20 particular development? 21 A: I'm sure we were briefed, you know, I 22 mean we work together and they would keep us informed 23 about what information they got. 24 Q: And -- but you weren't specifically 25 engaged? No one from your police service was engaged to
711 participate in the policing of that? 2 A: No, we weren't directly involved with 3 their operations, no. 4 Q: Okay. I'm going to take you now to 5 September of 1995. We understand that people moved into 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park on the afternoon of September 7 4th, 1995. 8 Prior to that happening, did you have any 9 information that the occupation of the Park was planned? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Were you on duty on September 4th? 12 A: I believe I was. 13 Q: And how did you learn that people had 14 moved into the Park? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Okay. At some point on September 4th 17 though, you did learn? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Was it the day -- the same day that 20 people went in that you learned that people had gone into 21 the Park? 22 A: I'm sure it would be. 23 Q: Okay. Were you contacted directly by 24 the OPP at any time concerning the entry of occupiers 25 into the Park?
721 A: I'm sure that we would be in 2 communications with them once that took place. 3 Q: Can you recall specifically the 4 nature of that -- those communications -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- or whether there were any 7 communications? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Prior to the entry of 10 occupiers into the Park, were you aware that there were 11 claims that there was a burial ground at Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Can you describe the nature and 15 source of that awareness? 16 A: Other than -- there was -- there was 17 claims that there was a burial ground. That's about all 18 I knew about it. 19 Q: Okay. And did you learn that from 20 other community members? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you recall ever having any 23 conversations with Elders or people in the community of - 24 - of that stature concerning the existence of burial 25 grounds at the Park?
731 A: I'm sure I did. I'm sure I talked to 2 people about it, you know, I had no personal knowledge 3 that it was so but just from hearsay, media and I'm sure 4 conversations with community members that, you know, 5 that's how I acquired the information. 6 Q: Okay. And did you regard the Park as 7 part of the land that was formerly known as the Stoney 8 Point reserve? 9 A: I didn't know if that -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- was part of it or not. 12 Q: Okay. Did you have any involvement 13 in policing activities either on September 4th or on 14 September 5th, concerning the occupation of the Park? 15 A: Not directly, no. 16 Q: Okay. And did the OPP ever request 17 your involvement during that time period, September 4th 18 or September 5th? 19 A: I don't believe so, no. 20 Q: No. Did they ever ask for your 21 advice about how to deal with the occupation? 22 A: No. 23 Q: To your knowledge, was anyone at your 24 police service, at your Detachment, asked for advice 25 about how to deal with that situation?
741 A: I'm not aware. 2 Q: You're not aware? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay, taking you now to September 5 6th. Were you on duty on the evening of September 6th? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you recall when you may have gone 8 on duty? 9 A: I'm guessing five o'clock. 10 Q: So, you weren't on duty during the 11 day? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. And that evening were you 14 driving a marked cruiser? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And were you in uniform? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In relation to the occupation of the 19 Park, did anything of note occur that evening that you 20 can share with us? 21 A: Quite a bit that happened that 22 evening. 23 Q: All right, so if we could start at 24 the first thing of note that happened during your shift. 25 A: All right. I'm not sure when I
751 obtained this information, but I was aware that Gerald 2 George had reported being assaulted and I didn't know at 3 that time the location where he was assaulted -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: It was a -- the understanding it was 6 near the Army camp, the extent of his assault I don't 7 know. I understood that there was some object thrown at 8 his car and the First Nations policemen were not 9 investigating any issues involving inside the Army camp, 10 so it was an OPP investigation. 11 The latter -- as the evening went on, I 12 started hearing different types of communications over 13 the radio that I didn't understand. It sounded like 14 personnel moving into the area and like different blurts. 15 It was just -- it was uncommon, it's 16 something that I wasn't used to hearing. 17 Q: Was it the frequency? 18 A: It was the frequency and -- 19 Q: And -- 20 A: -- it was on the radio. 21 Q: Yeah. And how many -- how many 22 channels did you share? 23 A: There was two (2) channels -- 24 Q: There were two (2)? 25 A: Yeah.
761 Q: And they were -- and you shared those 2 with the OPP in the region? 3 A: That's correct, yeah. We had F-1 and 4 a F-2 channel. 5 Q: Okay. And it was on both of those 6 channels that you heard? 7 A: I heard most of it on the F-1 but 8 there was one particular thing that I heard and it was on 9 Channel 2 where I was parked on the beach, and I'm not 10 sure, 7:30, eight o'clock. It's -- I'm not sure of the 11 time. I still think it was daylight. 12 And I had just flipped it over to Channel 13 2 and I heard something to the fact that, do not shoot, 14 there's women and children or do not return fire; 15 something to that effect. 16 I thought that I had just intercepted a TV 17 program or something. 18 Q: And why did you think that? 19 A: Because, you know, total surprise, 20 you know. 21 Q: And did you hear over the radio after 22 that, any explanation for those comments that gave you 23 any enlightenment -- 24 A: I don't know about an explanation for 25 that, but again I started -- I was hearing different
771 transmissions -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- about a -- it sounded like 4 personnel being, you know, deployed to certain things, 5 you know, it's not your ordinary evening. 6 Q: All right. And were there -- in the 7 normal course, not on this particular evening, would you 8 expect to recognize most of the officers or all of the 9 officers communicating over those radio frequencies? 10 A: Yes, I would, yeah. 11 Q: And were there officers communicating 12 over those frequencies on -- on the evening of September 13 6th that you didn't recognize? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And was there a lot -- were there a 16 lot of transmissions of that nature? 17 A: I don't think there was a lot, but 18 there was -- the ones that I did hear, they were 19 unfamiliar to me what -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- what was going on. 22 Q: And other than the comments that 23 you've described earlier, did you hear any other 24 transmissions that gave you -- gave -- gave you cause for 25 concern about what was going on the area?
781 A: Well, other -- other than that 2 comment I just mentioned earlier, I was ordered to attend 3 the Forest Detachment and I've never -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- I've never been ordered to attend, 6 I was always asked to return or ten nineteen (1019), 7 which is also return to the detachment and in this 8 particular case I was ordered to attend. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. And I understand that 10 happened after you heard the comment concerning women and 11 children? 12 A: Yeah, it -- it was later, after. 13 Q: Okay. And about how long after that? 14 A: I don't know, it was dark by that 15 time so I -- I'm going to guess an hour or so -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- or I don't know. There -- there 18 was a lot of things. I -- I wish I had my notebooks 19 again to refer to. 20 Q: Okay. And were you told -- so, just 21 to clarify, you received what you considered to be a 22 direct order to attend at the Forest Detachment? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And who communicated that order to 25 you?
791 A: The Com Centre. 2 Q: And you found that out of the 3 ordinary in terms of the -- how it was phrased to you? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 6 A: I attended Forest Detachment. 7 Q: And did you do that immediately on -- 8 on being ordered to do so? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Did you discuss that order 11 with anyone at your police service or anyone involved in 12 the First Nation prior to doing so? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And so you attended at the 15 Forest Detachment. Can you describe what you saw on 16 arriving? 17 A: I pulled up into the Forest 18 Detachment area. I observed a large trailer parked out 19 in the parking lot. I observed officers dressed in TRU 20 team uniforms and a lot of police vehicles present. 21 Q: Okay. Can you estimate the number of 22 officers that you could see? 23 A: I would estimate, when I first 24 arrived, maybe five (5) or six (6) outside of the office. 25 Q: Okay. And how many vehicles could
801 you see? 2 A: A lot. 3 Q: And you can't be more specific than 4 that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And we do understand that this was 7 ten (10) years ago. Could you describe for us, if you 8 could, the uniforms that the TRU Team members were 9 wearing? 10 A: If I recall, they were a solid 11 colour, either dark grey or green. 12 Q: Okay. And were they wearing any 13 equipment other than clothing? 14 A: Vest and duty belts. 15 Q: Okay. And were they carrying 16 anything at that time when you arrived at the Forest 17 Detachment? 18 A: I'm not sure if all of them were 19 carrying, but some of them had long guns. 20 Q: Okay. And did you see any -- any 21 members that you would have taken to be members of the -- 22 the CMU; the Crowd Management Unit? 23 A: I don't know if I knew anybody in 24 that -- 25 Q: Okay. All right.
811 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right. And the officers that 4 you've described in those uniforms, why did you think 5 they were members of the TRU Team? 6 A: Because I've -- I was familiar with 7 what the TRU Team looked like at the time, other than the 8 colour of the uniform; I'm not sure if they were green or 9 a grey colour. 10 Q: Hmm hmm? 11 A: I believe they -- they'd be a special 12 unit other than the uniformed officer. 13 Q: Okay. And how did you become 14 familiar with what the TRU Team looked like? 15 A: Since I started policing -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- I've seen TRU Team -- 18 Q: Okay. You mentioned the -- the 19 incident involving Darryl George, were there any other -- 20 A: That's -- that was one (1); magazines 21 would be another one. They showed members of TRU teams 22 in magazines and -- and they all wear the same uniforms. 23 Q: Okay. These are magazines that are 24 specific to Ontario and -- 25 A: Blue Line -- Blue Line and things
821 like that, yeah, police magazines. 2 Q: All right. And they would depict 3 members of the OPP -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- TRU team? Okay. Did you enter 6 the detachment? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And before entering the 9 Detachment, did you speak to anyone in the parking lot? 10 A: I don't believe so. 11 Q: Okay. And you weren't stopped by 12 anyone? 13 A: I don't recall if I was or not. 14 Q: Okay. Can you describe what happened 15 when you entered the Detachment? 16 A: Well I walked through the garage 17 portion of the Detachment and as I walked in, I observed 18 three (3) community members laying on the floor and they 19 were in -- in a -- I call it a spread eagle position. 20 And I identified each one of them as 21 Roseanne Bressette, Deanna Bressette and Jeremiah George. 22 Q: I understand these three (3) 23 individuals are each related to Cecil Bernard George; can 24 you describe how? 25 A: Roseanne is Bernard's wife, Deanna
831 Bressette would be sister in law to Bernard and Jeremiah 2 George is Bernard's brother. 3 Q: And you knew all three (3) of these 4 individuals? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Very well, fairly well? 7 A: Fairly well. 8 Q: Okay, okay. Can you describe what 9 else was going on in the room when these individuals were 10 -- were laying on the floor? 11 A: If I recall, there was one (1) or two 12 (2) OPP officers standing over them. Roseanne made a 13 comment similar to, They shot Bernard or they beat 14 Bernard up. 15 Q: Okay. Did you say anything to her? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you say anything to Jeremiah 18 George or Deanna Bressette? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you say anything to the OPP 21 officers that were stand -- or officer that was standing 22 over them? 23 A: I may have asked him what did they 24 do. 25 Q: Do you recall if there was any
841 response? 2 A: I'm not sure. I think they said they 3 ran a checkpoint. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Were those -- that 5 officer -- and I do understand -- we do understand that 6 this was quite some time ago and that does have an impact 7 on everyone's memory, do you recall if the officers were 8 -- or officer were doing anything other than standing 9 over the three (3) individuals? 10 A: When I seen them, no, they were just 11 standing. 12 Q: Okay. And what did you do next? 13 A: I walked into the main area of the 14 Forest Detachment. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And what happened then? 16 A: I noticed quite a few people in 17 there. I noticed what I call white shirts, brass, the 18 higher levels of the OPP command -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- a lot of their officers, some 21 dressed in TRU team uniforms, others in regular uniform. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was going on? 23 A: There was a lot of conversation. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: And I just stood there for a while,
851 wondering what I was called in there for. 2 Q: Did anyone tell you why you were 3 called in there? 4 A: At one point in time, I'm not sure if 5 he was a Sergeant at that time, but I'm going to call him 6 Sergeant Stan Korosec, spoke to me briefly and then told 7 me what was going up -- what was going on up to that 8 point. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And did he tell you 10 why you specifically had been ordered to the Detachment? 11 A: No, I -- to this day I don't know why 12 I was called down there. 13 Q: Okay. And I understand that at some 14 point at the Detachment, you saw a briefing? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you describe that for us? 17 A: Yeah. Mark Wright was giving a 18 briefing up to that point. He indicated that someone had 19 been shot, Dudley George had been shot and he was on his 20 way. I believe he might have confirmed that he was 21 deceased. 22 A second individual had been injured and a 23 third one had been injured. He named Nick Cotrelle and 24 Dudley George, but he did not name Bernard George as 25 being one of the injured at that time.
861 Q: Okay. And did he impart any other 2 information? 3 A: Yes, he -- he stated he wanted 4 officers to stand at each of the First Nations OPP 5 officers' house due to threats coming in and officer 6 safety issues. 7 Q: Okay. OPP First Nations officers, I 8 take -- did that -- was he referring to Kettle Point -- 9 A: I don't believe so, no. 10 Q: No? And -- 11 A: Because I asked him what about the 12 officers at Kettle Point. And he responded by saying, 13 what about them? 14 Q: Okay. So who would he have been -- 15 been describing? 16 A: I would believe officers that were 17 OPP officers and -- and not working on the First Nations. 18 Q: Okay. At the time were there any OPP 19 officers living at Kettle and Stony Point? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And what was your response if any, to 22 Detective Wright's comments to you? 23 A: I'm not sure if I said it directly to 24 him, if I said it out loud, or said it to myself, but no, 25 I'm -- I'm quite sure I told somebody. I'm not sure who
871 it was that I was going back to the Kettle Point 2 Detachment if they wanted anymore involvement of myself, 3 they would have to through Sergeant Bressette or Tom 4 Bressette at that time. 5 Q: Was that decision on your part 6 prompted by Detective Wright's comments to you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you explain to us how -- how that 9 came about? Or how you made that decision? 10 A: I got very upset when he decided -- 11 what I felt he -- he didn't want no, you know, to assist 12 and put officers on the officer's house in Kettle Point. 13 My feelings is we're all officers. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now I understand there are Band 19 members at Kettle and Stony Point First Nation that were 20 OPP members but -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- they didn't reside -- 23 A: But they -- they didn't reside. They 24 lived in Forest and elsewhere. 25 Q: Okay. So you conveyed to Detective
881 Wright that you would be leaving and returned to Kettle 2 Point and did you say anything else to him? 3 A: No. I -- I think I was -- I think I 4 was asked to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- do 6 you want to just wait a minute? 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Just to 8 clarify, Commissioner, I believe the witness's evidence 9 was he wasn't sure to whom he conveyed that he was going 10 to leave. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he did 12 say that. 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Ms. 14 Tuck-Jackson. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 17 Q: So, you returned to Kettle Point? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do you recall around what time that 20 would have happened? You returning? 21 A: I'm -- I'm guessing around midnight, 22 some time after that? 23 Q: Okay. While you were at the 24 Detachment, did any of the officers there ask you for any 25 information about members of your community or events
891 that were involving members of your community? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Did anyone ask you for your advice 4 about how to handle the situation? 5 A: No. That's why I was upset when the 6 comment was made, you know, what about the officers on 7 Kettle Point. My feelings were that we weren't involved 8 up to this point and then now we're being ignored about 9 our safety issue. 10 Q: And so you left the Detachment, what 11 did you do next? 12 A: I returned to the Detachment and 13 paged Sergeant Bressette. 14 Q: By Detachment, you mean the Kettle 15 Point Detachment? 16 A: That's correct, yes. 17 Q: And did you end up speaking to 18 Sergeant Bressette, or Staff Sergeant Bressette? 19 A: I'm not sure if -- yeah, eventually. 20 Because he did return. And then I also placed phone 21 calls to each one of the officers, appraised them about 22 the situation. 23 Q: All the officers at Kettle Point? 24 A: On -- on Kettle Point Reserve. 25 Q: Did anyone -- did any of these
901 officers return to the Detachment or go on duty at the 2 time? 3 A: I -- I don't recall that. That would 4 have been a decision Sergeant Bressette would have made. 5 Q: Okay. And was Sergeant Bressette on 6 -- on duty at the time? 7 A: Not at the time. He was off duty but 8 I paged him and he returned to duty. 9 10 Q: Okay. And do you recall roughly what 11 -- what time Sergeant Bressette would have -- or Staff 12 Sergeant Bressette would have returned? 13 A: No. Within the hour, hour and a half 14 from the time I paged him. 15 Q: Okay. And on returning to Kettle 16 Point, what did you see in terms of what was happening at 17 the community there? 18 A: As I was returning to Kettle Point I 19 had observed a gathering of people at an area, the Point 20 Preference Mall on the corner of 21 Highway -- or, it 21 would be -- it would be Rawlings Road at that time and 22 Lakeshore Road. 23 Q: We've heard other witnesses refer to 24 that as the plaza? 25 A: The plaza.
911 Q: Yeah. About how many people? 2 A: I would guess twenty-five (25) -- 3 thirty (30). 4 Q: And what were they doing? 5 A: At that time I -- they were just 6 gathering, I didn't hear them, I had -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- went to the detachment and later 9 went to that area with Sergeant Bressette. 10 Q: Okay. When you returned to the area 11 with Sergeant Bressette, were there more people there 12 than twenty-five (25) or thirty (30)? 13 A: I don't recall if it had gotten more 14 or not. 15 Q: Okay. And did you speak to any of 16 the people there? 17 A: We spoke to Chief Tom Bressette. 18 Q: Okay. And what was the nature of 19 your conversation? 20 A: Chief Tom Bressette had told us that 21 they had shot Bernard -- or the OPP had shot Bernard in 22 the head; that was what was conveyed to us. 23 Q: And did he convey any other 24 information about people being injured or anyone else 25 being involved?
921 A: I don't remember. I -- I think when 2 I heard that I got tunnel vision to that comment. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. And I understand Cecil 4 Bernard George is your first cousin? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Were the people in front of the plaza 7 -- the activities in front of the -- the people in front 8 of the plaza, did they give rise to any concerns on your 9 part as a police officer? 10 A: Not to myself, personally -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- because I -- I knew almost all of 13 them and I don't believe that their animosity at that 14 time was directed to myself or any of the Kettle Point 15 police. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you witness -- we 17 understand that there was a barricade set up on Highway 18 21 -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- adjacent to Kettle Point. Did you 21 -- did you see that barricade and the -- the fire that 22 was set there? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Okay. Was that -- can you describe 25 what you saw there?
931 A: That was early morning hours. I seen 2 tires, different pieces of debris placed across the 3 highway and that it was eventually set on fire. 4 Q: Okay. Were you with Staff Sergeant 5 Bressette at the time when you saw that? 6 A: I don't recall if I was with him at 7 that time or not. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: There was a lot of different vehicle 10 changing and -- and things being done throughout that 11 night. He may have been with me at that time. 12 Q: All right. And again, as a police 13 officer, not in terms of your personal security, more in 14 terms of what your duties and obligations were at the 15 time, did you feel that you should be, or did you have 16 any communication with Sergeant Bressette about whether 17 you should be doing anything about the -- the barricade 18 and fire on Highway 21? 19 A: I believe I was directed to -- to 20 leave it alone. 21 Q: Okay. Who directed you to do that? 22 A: I'm not sure if it was Sergeant 23 Bressette or through the OPP. 24 Q: Were you given any explanation why 25 you should leave it alone?
941 A: I believe that there was going to be 2 a march to the Army Camp and it was going to be conducted 3 in a peaceful manner. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. And you 5 mentioned earlier that you had a conversation with Chief 6 Tom Bressette -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- at the plaza. Did he direct you 9 to do anything? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Can you describe your activities for 12 the remainder of the night? 13 A: Basically, we -- we -- I and Sergeant 14 Bressette patrolled. We kept in radio communication with 15 the OPP. 16 I believe about four o'clock in the 17 morning we were requested to assist the OPP in a meeting 18 with an individual who had been charged for impaired 19 driving and we met them at Forest -- I'm sorry, the golf 20 course near Kettle Point, there, where we escorted her 21 from there to Kettle Point. 22 Q: And who was that individual? 23 A: Marlene Simons. 24 Q: Marlene Simons? 25 A: Marion Simons, or -- Maurice --
951 Marcia. That's -- that's her name. I'm sorry, Marcia 2 Simons. 3 Q: All right. Okay. And did you have 4 any conversations with her about her activities that 5 evening? 6 A: I don't believe we had conversations 7 about her activities. She did talk a lot. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: To the content, I don't recall what 10 the content was. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. And what was your 12 impression as to her state? 13 A: She was intoxicated. 14 Q: All right. And was she upset? 15 A: I believe she probably was upset. 16 Q: Did she appear to be fearful or 17 afraid of anything? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. nd you -- so you took her to 20 her home? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you were in the car with -- 23 A: Sergeant Bressette. 24 Q: -- Sergeant Bressette at the time. 25 Okay.
961 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Okay. You referred earlier to a 4 planned march down Highway 21? Were you present when 5 that march occurred? 6 A: I don't recall if I was or not. 7 Q: Okay. But, you did get information 8 prior to it happening that it was going to happen? 9 A: I believe I did, yes. 10 Q: Were you on duty when it happened? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. And do you recall what time 13 the march was planned to happen, if you had any 14 information like that? 15 A: No, I don't -- I didn't have that 16 information. 17 Q: Do you remember when it actually 18 occurred? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay, can you describe your activity 21 that day and in the few days that followed in your duties 22 as a police officer? 23 A: I -- I -- if I recall, in the days 24 that -- the days following, it was -- I had high anxiety 25 tension because of what had happened. I -- I recall the
971 OPP First Nations and people from the camp were trying to 2 negotiate some kind of security system to be in place, 3 because there was a high level of concern of officer 4 safety, of any officers that were going to be patrolling 5 near the Army Camp. 6 Q: Do you remember hearing of any 7 concerns for the safety of the occupiers of the Camp? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: No. 12 Q: How about other residents in the 13 area, either at Kettle and Stony Point First Nation or 14 any of the non-aboriginal residents? 15 A: I didn't hear it directly, but I know 16 there was an issue where -- where residents of that -- in 17 that immediate area were concerned about what if the 18 occupiers were to go on into the residents' neighbourhood 19 there and that's what I'm saying, they were trying to 20 come up with some kind of -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- patrolling plan for the coming 23 days. 24 Q: Okay. And when you say they, who are 25 you referring to?
981 A: I'm talking about the people 2 occupying at the camp -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: The OPP, the nearby residents. 5 Q: Okay. And as a result of those 6 conversations or those issues arising, it is your 7 understanding that any kind of agreement was reached? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you describe what you know about 10 that agreement? 11 A: Yes, Anishnaabeg police service were 12 asked to assist and the nearest reserve was Saugeen. 13 Several officers from Saugeen and other Anishnaabeg 14 police service officers from different reserves attended. 15 It was agreed that the officers would be 16 First Nations officers who would be patrolling the 17 immediate area around the Army camp unarmed. 18 Q: Okay. And did you participate in 19 those -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- those patrols? Yeah. And you did 22 so unarmed? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25
991 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Okay. Were any OPP patrolling in the 4 -- in the roads immediately adjacent to Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: I don't -- I don't think so, not once 6 the plan was put in place. 7 Q: All right. Okay. If I could take 8 you to the binder in front of you, at Tab 6, page 299. 9 A: 6? 10 Q: One ninety-nine (199). 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Did you say a page number? 15 Q: Yeah, I did and I'm sorry, it's Page 16 177. It's a typo. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 21 Q: Okay, you'll see there that you're 22 referred to as Special Constable Wally Kaczanowski at 23 13:03 hours. That is on September 10th. It says that: 24 "Kettle Point police and Dudman's 25 Towing will remove all equipment from
1001 main gate area of Camp Ipperwash to be 2 taken to North Lambton County garage on 3 County Road 12, approximately one (1) 4 mile south of office. DDU to exam 5 prior to TISU. All arrangements in 6 place for this." 7 Do you have any recollection of performing 8 that? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. All right. And if any OPP 14 officers were patrolling -- were to patrol the roads 15 immediately adjacent to Camp Ipperwash, would you expect 16 that would give rise to any kinds of concerns, on the -- 17 A: Yes, it would be breaching our 18 agreement. 19 Q: Right, and to your knowledge, did -- 20 did that ever occur? 21 A: Not that I'm aware of. 22 Q: Okay. At any point on September 7th, 23 did you attend at the Ministry of Natural Resources 24 parking lot on East Parkway Drive? 25 A: Yes.
1011 Q: And what did you see there? 2 A: I seen a ambulance that looked like 3 an ambulance, St. John's Ambulance. I seen two (2) other 4 what appear to be personnel carrier trailers, semi 5 trailers, that were also painted with the St. John 6 Ambulance logo on it. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Inside those trailers were computers, 9 what appear to be communication equipment. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. Did you actually go into 11 the trailers? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: All right. And did you see anything 14 resembling body bags inside those trailers? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 24 Q: We've heard from other witnesses that 25 there was one (1) trailer and one (1) van in that parking
1021 lot. Does that refresh your memory or -- 2 A: I thought there was two (2) trailers. 3 Q: All right. And it was ten (10) years 4 ago, so there -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And how long did you stay on duty 7 following the events of late September 6, 1995? 8 A: I may had stayed on twenty-four (24) 9 hours, thirty (30) hours, I don't know. 10 Q: And were you on duty more than your 11 scheduled shifts in the days and weeks that followed -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- September 6th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Do you recall meeting an 16 individual by the name of Chico Ralf during that period; 17 not meeting with, but seeing him or speaking to him? 18 A: I believe he attended the Kettle 19 Point Detachment. Why he was there and what he had done 20 during his visit, I don't -- I'm not aware of. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. So you didn't speak to him 22 about the reason for his presence there? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay, do you recall an incident in 25 the weeks following September 6th involving threats made
1031 against the people at Kettle Point First Nation? 2 A: I recall an incident. My wife was 3 working at a local restaurant, The Kettle's On, she had 4 contacted me and indicated she had received a phone 5 call -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- something to the effect that tell 8 Tom Bressette to hide the kids or move the kids because 9 we're coming to do harm. 10 Q: And what did you do as a result of 11 that information? 12 A: I turned that information over to 13 Sergeant Bressette. 14 Q: Okay. To your knowledge -- or were 15 you involved in any investigation of those -- those 16 threats? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Do you have any further 19 information about how they were dealt with? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you have any dealings, pursuant 22 to the agreement you've described earlier, did you have 23 any dealings with the cottagers in the lands immediately 24 adjacent to -- to Camp Ipperwash or Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park?
1041 A: I believe there's been several 2 different incidents where we escorted the cottagers to 3 their properties -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- to either remove personal items or 6 just to check on it. 7 Q: Okay. And that -- those trips 8 happened without incident? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did the cottagers again leave the 11 area -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- once they -- do you know how long 14 it was until they -- these -- these people returned to 15 their -- to live in their cottages? 16 A: I would be taking a guess. A month, 17 month and a half. 18 Q: Okay. And we will be speaking to 19 some of them directly, so we can get -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- more exact information. Mr. 22 Commissioner, I'm almost -- I'm almost done, so I'm going 23 to press on if that's all right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 25 to continue on? I think you should if --
1051 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you're 3 almost done, yes. 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yeah, I don't have 5 very much more, okay. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 8 Q: Do you recall whether there were, 9 Constable Kaczanowski, a higher -- any increase in the 10 number of break ins in the area of Camp Ipperwash or 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park during the time following 12 September 6th? 13 A: I don't have any stats to -- to be 14 able to put them up against the side and -- and determine 15 if there was more or less. 16 I know we had -- went in there shortly 17 after this plan was in place for us to patrol the areas 18 unarmed and we took inventory of the cottages and, again, 19 I can't confirm if it was a higher rate of break-ins at 20 that time. 21 I do recall some of them were historical 22 and may have been, you know, done prior to the incident 23 on September 5th -- 6th. 24 Q: And that would have been cottages 25 that were --
1061 A: Cottages -- 2 Q: -- unoccupied -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- at the time, so no one would have 5 noted the break in? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Have you -- Constable 8 Kaczanowski, have you ever heard of Operation Maple or 9 Project Maple? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. We anticipate that we will be 12 hearing from other witnesses that Project Maple was an 13 operational policing plan concerning the policing and the 14 occupations of the Camp and the Park -- just the Park, 15 sorry. 16 In your view, in the development of such a 17 plan, would you have been able to provide valuable or 18 helpful information in the development of such a plan to 19 the OPP? 20 I'm sorry, that was an OPP operational 21 policing plan. 22 A: Hmm hmm. I'd have to say yes. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And what do you base that 24 opinion on? 25 A: I base that comment on the fact that
1071 all the officers on Kettle Point, mind you except for one 2 (1), were directly related to persons in the Park and in 3 the camp at that time. 4 And I would think that would be a very 5 good source of communications, negotiation tool and that 6 was overlooked. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: To the best of your knowledge, would 11 you have been permitted by the Kettle Point Police 12 Service to -- or Kettle and Stony Point First Nation 13 Police Service, to assist in the development of such a 14 plan? Were you asked by the OPP to -- to assist? 15 A: Were we asked? 16 Q: No. If you were asked by the OPP, 17 hypothetically, would your -- would the Kettle Point 18 Police Service have permitted you to assist in that 19 regard; assist the OPP in the development of that plan? 20 A: I'm sure they would have. 21 Q: And what do you base that -- that 22 opinion on? 23 A: I -- I think that would be crazy for 24 them to ignore that opportunity. 25 Q: In your view would you and your
1081 fellow officers have been able to assist in effective 2 policing of the occupation of the Park? Had you been 3 asked to do so? 4 A: I don't know what the outcome would 5 be if we did have an opportunity to get involved with it, 6 but I would think, again, the communication line would 7 have been a little bit better received by members that 8 were in the Park at that time, if given the opportunity 9 to have First Nations officer go to that area and speak 10 to somebody. 11 Q: All right. Thank you very much, 12 Constable Kaczanowski. Those are my questions, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 Does anybody wish to cross-examine or ask questions of 16 Constable Kaczanowski? 17 Okay. Mr. Orkin, how long might you be? 18 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Not much more than five 19 (5) minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 21 Esmonde...? 22 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes, Mr. 23 Commissioner, I estimate I would be about fifteen (15) to 24 twenty (20) minutes. But I would appreciate a chance to 25 confer with Mr. Rosenthal prior to commencing my cross-
1091 examination. I don't know if we would be able to have a 2 short break. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well okay. 4 Let's see how the time goes. 5 Mr. Scullion...? 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Depending on what 7 goes before me, ten (10) minutes to fifteen (15). 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 9 George...? 10 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Less than five (5) 11 minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 13 Jackson...? 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 15 twenty (20) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 17 minutes. 18 Ms. Jones...? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Twenty (20) minutes, 20 Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 22 McAleer...? 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Less than five (5) 24 minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we
1101 continue or try to take an early lunch? Is our next 2 witness going to be available today if we reach him? Or 3 is he not available until tomorrow because we might be 4 able to space the day differently. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He's here. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's here? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So, he's ready when 8 we're ready. We might take a short break if Ms. Esmonde 9 wanted to -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- confer with Mr. 12 Rosenthal because she would be up immediately -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Before we 14 take a lunch break. All right then let's continue then 15 with Mr. Orkin. Start with Mr. Orkin and then we'll see 16 where we are. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, what I'm 18 proposing is we take a short break now -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- to permit Ms. 21 Esmonde to speak to Mr. Rosenthal. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 23 That's fine. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps ten (10) 25 minutes.
1111 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This will be 2 our third morning break. That's fine. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for ten (10) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 11:37 a.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 11:47 a.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 12 Orkin. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 15 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. 16 Kaczanowski, my name's Andrew Orkin and I'm Co-Counsel to 17 the Dudley George Estate and the Sam George Family Group 18 Members. I'm just going to be asking you a few 19 additional questions as part of the cross-examination 20 that I'm sure has been explained to you will be taking 21 place. 22 You mentioned that you were born -- that 23 your mother was born and raised at Kettle Point; that's 24 correct? 25 A: That's correct.
1121 Q: And therefore you, as -- as a band 2 member, have a connection with the Kettle Point -- Kettle 3 and Stony Point Reserve lands? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do any members of your immediate or 6 extended family have any connection with the Stoney Point 7 Reserve lands as far as you're aware or does any -- 8 anyone you're related to or anyone that you know as a 9 family member originally from the Stoney Point Reserve 10 lands? 11 A: Well, my grandmother -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- was from Stoney Point. Are you 14 talking about cousins, aunts, uncles today? 15 Q: Well, we can just confine it to your 16 grandmother at this point in time and then -- 17 A: -- more than this. 18 Q: So she -- she was originally a Stoney 19 Point Reserve resident? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And was affected by the -- the taking 22 of that land in -- in the 1940s -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- by the Military, yes. So, you, 25 yourself, also have a personal family connection with the
1131 Stoney Point Reserve lands as a descendant of your 2 grandmother? 3 A: As a descendant. 4 Q: Yes, yes. That was -- that was what 5 I meant. You indicated in your testimony in addition to 6 -- to your being a band member at Kettle and Stony Point 7 that you are a US and Canadian citizen and received 8 training as a police officer. 9 Was that -- am I correct in -- in both 10 countries? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes, thank you. Did you, in the 13 course of that training, ever receive any instruction 14 with respect to the approaches and duties of police 15 officers in the context of dealing with public 16 demonstrations? 17 A: Very, very little. During the Block 18 training I believe we had a little bit involvement -- a 19 little bit of training of group control. 20 Q: Right. Were you, in the course of 21 that training, made aware that it is a right of citizens 22 in both jurisdictions in which you were -- were -- were 23 being trained as a police officer to -- to demonstrate 24 their -- their view points and their grievances, that 25 that is a -- a right in our society --
1141 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- as a free -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- you did receive instruction -- 5 A: I -- 6 Q: -- or mention of that? 7 A: No, I didn't receive instruction to 8 that, but I have general knowledge that -- 9 Q: You have general knowledge of that? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And as a police officer you would 12 regard -- would -- is it true to say that you would 13 regard in a context where a police officer engages with 14 demonstrators, protecting the right of demonstrators to 15 demonstrate in -- in -- in a public context providing 16 it's in keeping with the law and -- and such things, that 17 it is an obligation of a police officer also to protect 18 demonstrators? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Were you aware in the course of your 21 tenure at Kettle and Stony Point police officer, that 22 there were tensions in the area also amongst non-native 23 citizens in the area, regarding demonstrations and 24 assertions by First Nations people concerning the Stoney 25 Point reserve lands?
1151 Were there -- you were aware of tension -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You were. Was there, during your 4 tenure as a police officer and prior to the events of 5 September 4th, 5th and 6th of 1995, were you aware of any 6 discussion at the level of the OPP that you were made 7 aware of, regarding the safety and security of any 8 demonstrators -- demonstrations that may occur where 9 First Nations people were asserting their land rights? 10 A: I believe I was involved with several 11 incidents prior to that and not so much involving the 12 Army Camp lands and the Park lands, but of the Kettle -- 13 Kettle and Stony Point lands along the beach area, there 14 was disputed land claims where non-Band members were -- 15 would claim that they own the beach area and it was -- it 16 was in the Courts and I believe it still maybe in the 17 Courts, determining who has the right to the particular 18 areas. 19 There was a group that I became aware of. 20 They called themselves On Fire, were a vocal group that 21 had concerns regarding those land claims and they made it 22 a point to voice their opinions about how they felt on 23 certain issues. 24 Q: That's very helpful, and in -- in -- 25 in your becoming aware of those various viewpoints, was
1161 there any discussion at the level of the OPP that you 2 were aware of, that it may be necessary to protect the 3 rights of people to voice their -- their claims in a 4 public way? 5 And I can expand on that, because through 6 the course of the years, we've heard testimony that First 7 Nations peoples -- people, for example, would do 8 leafleting or would stand on the side of the road with 9 placards for passing traffic to see. 10 Was there ever any discussion of -- of 11 ensuring that that happened in an orderly way, as far as 12 you were aware? 13 A: If there had been any discussion, it 14 wasn't brought to my attention. 15 Q: It wasn't brought to your attention, 16 thank you. 17 With respect to the events immediately 18 after the shooting on the evening of September the 6th, 19 you mentioned that you went to the -- to the OPP 20 Detachment and that you saw three (3) First Nations 21 people spread eagled, I think you mentioned, inside the 22 Detachment after you'd entered into it. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you ever ascertain where those 25 people had been arrested?
1171 A: Where? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: No, I don't recall being told where 4 this -- just that they were -- I was told that they had 5 run a road block. 6 Q: So, presumably at some point between 7 the time that they had allegedly run a road block and the 8 time you saw them spreadeagled there had been an arrest 9 that had occurred? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you tell us about the -- the 12 exact location at the Detachment that these people were 13 lying -- were lying, as you put it, spreadeagled? 14 A: I believe it was in the Forest 15 Detachment garage. 16 Q: In the garage. Was this a concrete 17 floor or -- 18 A: It was a concrete floor. 19 Q: Were they lying face up or face down? 20 A: Down. 21 Q: Face down. Under what circumstances, 22 in your experience as a police officer, would that be an 23 appropriate approach for the continuing detention of a 24 prisoner? 25 A: I would believe that they -- they
1181 must have had a concern at a high level. I don't know 2 what -- what had transpired to have them in that 3 position. 4 Q: Do you know how long that they had 5 been held? Did you know it at that time how long they 6 had been in that position and being kept in that 7 position? Do you recall? 8 A: I don't know how long they were in 9 that position prior to me getting there, but if -- if I 10 recall correctly, they were still in that position when I 11 left the Detachment. 12 Q: Do you have any idea of what 13 timeframe was involved in that -- in that period? Was it 14 perhaps fifteen (15) minutes or more than that? 15 A: I -- I don't think it was -- it was 16 that long but when you're in a -- 17 Q: Right. 18 A: -- high level tension situation, the 19 time can stand still -- 20 Q: Right. 21 A: -- or speed up. 22 Q: I appreciate the -- as my colleague 23 Ms. Hensel said a large amount of time has gone by and 24 certainly that must have been a tense moment. 25 Do you recall at all whether in being
1191 spread eagled, they were in any way handcuffed or were 2 they simply being supervised in that -- in that position? 3 A: I don't recall if I seen any 4 handcuffs. 5 Q: During the entire period about which 6 you testified, the lead up to the events of September 6th 7 and then the days afterwards, during that entire period 8 was there any mention at any briefing that you attended 9 regarding the fact that there were Treaty Rights involved 10 in this land right situation and land claim situation? 11 Was there any mention of Treaty Rights 12 ever made at any of the OPP briefings that you attended? 13 A: To the Army Camp or to the Park? 14 Q: To either the army camp or to the 15 Park. Was the issue of there being Treaty Rights 16 involved ever mentioned as far as you're aware? 17 A: I don't -- I don't recall hearing 18 anything about a Treaty Right. 19 Q: That's fine. Thank you, Mr. 20 Commissioner. Those are all my -- thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Ms. Esmonde...? 23 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Thank you very much, 24 Commissioner, for allowing me a break. 25
1201 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE. 2 Q: Good day, Mr. -- sorry, Constable 3 Kaczanowski. My name is Jackie Esmonde, I'm one of the 4 lawyers representing the Aazhoodena and George Family 5 Group. I would like to begin by asking you a few 6 questions about the investigation into the helicopter 7 incident. 8 Now, you have before you a binder and I 9 believe at Tab 1 there should be a Will State from an 10 Officer Fox. Now, do you recall being contacted by 11 Officer Fox in November of 2003? 12 A: I -- I recall him contacting me, yes. 13 Q: And he contacted you in order to get 14 assistance in contacting an individual, Spencer Lunham 15 Jr.? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did Officer Fox tell you why he 18 wanted to speak with this individual? 19 A: I believe he had told me something to 20 the fact that Spencer had information regarding the 21 alleged shooting of the helicopter. 22 Q: Did Officer Fox say anything to you 23 about why he was investigating an incident that had 24 occurred some ten (10) years previously? 25 A: I believe he told me that they were -
1211 - were reopening the investigation. 2 Q: Did he tell you why they were 3 reopening the investigation? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did he make any mention of the 6 Inquiry that had been called? 7 A: That may have been part of the 8 conversation. 9 Q: That may have been? 10 A: Yes. I think he had indicated there 11 was going to be an inquiry and they're covering all the 12 avenues leading up to that. 13 Q: I see. Now, with respect to the 14 briefing that you heard at the Forest Detachment on 15 September 6th, 1995, you've told us that Detective Wright 16 led that briefing? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did he give any reason during 19 that briefing that you can recall, as to why the OPP had 20 marched on the Park at night? 21 A: No. I -- I believe I might have been 22 coming in at the middle of the briefing. It was already 23 underway when I got there. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us that you 25 were angry about some comment that he had made to you --
1221 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and you felt that he was not 3 concerned about the safety of the Kettle Point police 4 officers? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you hear him on that evening 7 make any antagonistic comments towards the people who 8 were in the Park? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Had you had experience with Detective 11 Wright previously? 12 A: I had a -- several occasions to meet 13 with him during my policing career. At the very 14 beginning, he reviewed an investigation I did and another 15 time he -- we had the opportunity to work together on an 16 investigation. 17 Q: And had you found him to be rude or 18 antagonistic on other of these other occasions -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- that you met with him? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Now you've told us about picking up 23 Marcia Simon at the request of the OPP? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you actually speak with an
1231 OPP officer to make those arrangements? 2 A: I may have by radio. 3 Q: Okay. You personally spoke with 4 someone? 5 A: Myself or Sergeant Bressette. I 6 don't know how it came to be that we were asked to meet 7 with a OPP unit. 8 Q: Okay. And you were asked to meet 9 with a unit at the Indian Hills Golf Course? 10 A: Yeah, Indian Hills Golf Course, yes. 11 Q: And what precisely were you -- did 12 you understand about the -- the reason why Ms. Simon was 13 in police custody? 14 A: I really wasn't sure. 15 Q: Now, you said earlier that you were 16 told that she was in custody for impaired driving -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- and that you were under the 19 impression that she was intoxicated? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you -- do you have any 22 independent recollection today of why you believed these 23 things? 24 A: Well, again, not having my notebooks, 25 I do recall and again, I just got an insert of a Will
1241 State that I had put together indicating that we were 2 involved with Marcia Simons. That has refreshed my 3 memory of that incident. 4 Q: Okay. There's a few documents that 5 I'd like to show you that might assist us all. I have 6 here a photocopy from a notebook that I'm going to show 7 you and ask you if you can identify it. 8 A: Hmm hmm, okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And for the assistance of Counsel 13 and what I've provided to the Witness is a copy of a 14 document that was provided to the Commission and 15 distributed to all Counsel in September of 2004. It was 16 provided by Mr. Walter Myrka on behalf of the Province 17 of Ontario. 18 Now, sir, do you recognize that 19 photocopied notebook? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And is that your handwriting? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Have you had a chance to read that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me
1251 that these are your notes that were made on the evening 2 of September 6th, 1995 between 4:10 and 4:30 -- 3 pertaining, sorry, to the time period between 4:10 and 4 4:30 a.m. -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- of September 7th, pardon me. 7 Now, for the record, I believe they say: 8 "Marcia Simons requested ride home from 9 Forest. Met her Indian Hills Golf 10 Course. OPP officers brought her to 11 this point. 12 And then at 04:30 she was dropped off 13 at her resident, Rawlings Road." 14 You'd agree with me that's what that 15 says? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you'd agree with me that there's 18 -- there's nothing in this notebook that makes any 19 reference to Marcia Simon showing any signs of 20 intoxication? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Now, you referred to a Will State -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and for the assistance of 25 Counsel, this is also a document that was provided by
1261 Mr. Myrka. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And Ms. Hensel has an extra copy to 6 provide to the Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: And you have a copy 9 before you? 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 12 Q: Now, did you -- did you write this? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when did you do so? 15 A: I'm not sure when I wrote that, 16 whenever I was asked to do that. 17 Q: Why were you asked to prepare that? 18 A: I have no idea. 19 Q: Do you remember today why it is that 20 you believe that she was intoxicated? 21 A: After being refreshed by my Will 22 State, and also my notes, I recall that she had a strong 23 odour of alcohol coming from her when she spoke. 24 Q: Now, I must tell you, sir, that we 25 have the notes and some statements from some other
1271 officers who were involved with Ms. Simon on that 2 evening. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: We have the notes of the officers 5 involved in her arrest, PCs Bell, Lorch, Gransden, 6 Dougan, and Detective Constable Clelland, and none of 7 these documents make any reference to Ms. Simon 8 appearing to be intoxicated or her being arrested for 9 impaired driving. 10 In addition, we have the notes and some 11 statements from some officers involved in transporting 12 her to the Forest Detachment and again, none of these 13 notes make any reference to her appearing to be 14 intoxicated -- 15 A: Okay.. 16 Q: -- or being arrested for impaired 17 driving. And in addition, we have the notes and 18 statements of the officers who took her to the Indian 19 Hills Golf Course and dropped her into your custody and 20 none of these notes or statements make any reference to 21 her appearing to be intoxicated or being arrested for 22 impaired driving. 23 And I anticipate as well, that we will 24 hear from Sergeant Bressette that Marcia Simon did not 25 appear to be intoxicated to him.
1281 Now, given all this, is it possible that 2 you are mis-remembering or perhaps confusing Ms. Simon 3 with someone else? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You're -- you maintain that she was 6 intoxicated while she was in your custody? 7 A: I'm going to maintain that I had 8 detected an odour of alcohol on her breath. 9 Q: Are you suggesting, sir, that 10 perhaps she was drinking while in the Forest Detachment? 11 A: I'm not suggesting anything, ma'am. 12 Q: Now, I understand this Will State 13 statement that's before you was prepared as a result of 14 a civil suit that was commenced by Ms. Simon with 15 respect to her arrest and detention that evening. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that 18 this Will State is untruthful and that you are not 19 telling the truth when you say that Ms. Simon had an 20 odour of alcohol on her breath. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: Do you agree or disagree with that? 23 A: I'm going to maintain that I smelled 24 alcohol on her breath. 25 Q: I'm going to suggest that you have
1291 lied in order to assist in the defence of a civil suit 2 that was brought by Ms. Simon. 3 How do you respond to that statement? 4 A: You can suggest anything you want. 5 I'm maintaining that she smelled like alcohol on her 6 breath. 7 Q: Did someone tell you to write that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you have any discussions with 10 Sergeant Bressette before writing that? 11 A: I may have got directives to do a 12 Will State for this purpose and again, I don't know when 13 it was and at that time what it was about. 14 Q: Thank you, sir. Those are all of my 15 questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 Mr. Scullion, are you next? I think you are. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think I am next-- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 20 fine. I think so, I think we'll go a bit. 21 You don't represent -- this isn't one (1) 22 of your clients? 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I do not, I 24 believe he's unrepresented. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's
1301 fine. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Is it okay that I 3 start? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 5 think you should start, Mr. Scullion. It's only ten 6 (10) after 12:00. We can go a bit longer, we've had 7 three (3) breaks this morning and I think we can go a 8 bit longer. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 11 Q: I'll be direct. I'm not sure how 12 long I'll be, but we'll see. 13 Constable Kaczanowski, my name's Kevin 14 Scullion, I'm one (1) of the Counsel that represent the 15 residents of Aazhoodena. 16 And -- and I'd like at the outset, I -- I 17 appreciate it may be a little difficult for you; I think 18 you're the first officer I've seen testify without the 19 assistance of his notebooks. 20 Now, when is the last time you saw your 21 notebooks relating to this time period? 22 A: I keep all of my notebooks in one 23 (1) location. I don't know when it went missing. It 24 was just brought to my attention when I was asked to 25 produce it, is when I finally realized that I didn't
1311 have it in my possession. I then looked into it and 2 built the assumption that it may be in the hands of 3 lawyers and -- and who, I don't know, there were several 4 employment issues after '95 that may have required my 5 note inserts and they may have took them. 6 Q: Okay. Well, I don't want to get 7 into those matters. 8 A: Yeah, well, I'm trying to explain 9 you, you know, I don't have my notebook so -- 10 Q: No, I -- 11 A: -- I don't know why. 12 Q: -- I appreciate that. How many 13 notebooks are you missing? 14 A: One (1). 15 Q: Relating to this timeframe? 16 A: During that timeframe. 17 Q: And in the course of your duties as 18 an officer with Kettle Point, you would ordinarily make 19 notations into that notebook for anything that occurred 20 on -- during your shifts? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And in preparing for 23 testifying today, that would be something you'd normally 24 take a look at, wouldn't it? 25 A: That's correct.
1321 Q: All right. So, the testimony that 2 you're giving today is to the best of your recollection 3 without the assistance of any of those notebooks? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: If I understood your evidence, you 6 were an officer with Kettle Point Police Services since 7 about '92? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. So, you were aware that 10 occupiers had moved into the camp areas, a small part of 11 the camp area, in 1993 -- May 1993? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you were aware that they moved 14 into the barrack area in July of 1995? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that 17 you didn't receive any direction from Kettle Point or 18 from OPP to deal with any of the issues that came up on 19 either the camp, the small area of the camp lands in '93 20 or the barrack area in '95? 21 A: Well, again. I -- I was asked to 22 assist in executing a warrant on one individual there, 23 that incident. I -- we weren't -- we weren't patrolling 24 that area. 25 Q: Right. It was generally left to the
1331 OPP and Kettle Point with -- stayed with the Kettle 2 Point lands? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: But you occasionally did patrols 5 that were on Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 6 A: Yes. Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. So, you drove by and you were 8 aware that this was going on? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: When they moved in in 1993, did this 11 surprise you, given your apparent knowledge of the 12 protests that have been gone on before? 13 A: I don't think it surprise me that it 14 happened. I was surprised on how it happened. 15 Q: Okay. Were you unduly concerned as 16 an officer of Kettle Point with what was going on? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you do anything about it? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. Were you surprised that they 21 moved into the barracks area in July of 1995? 22 A: I guess maybe at that time my -- my 23 train of thought would then -- I wasn't going to be 24 surprised about anything that occurred. 25 Q: All right. Well, you had some idea
1341 that something may be happening. We understand there 2 was a meeting before -- 3 A: Yeah. I -- I think that, you know, 4 there was two (2) years there that something had to 5 progress in that area and -- and how it came about, I 6 was surprised how it went, you know. I -- I wasn't 7 surprised that they went into the occu -- the built-up 8 area, no. 9 Q: Okay. And I suggest to you that you 10 weren't all that surprised that they went into the Park 11 either on September 4th? 12 A: Again, again the Park -- I was 13 surprised that they went into the Park. I was aware 14 that they had issues stating that there was a burial 15 ground. I was surprised they did go in there. But, 16 again I wasn't surprised -- 17 Q: Right. Well you knew it was a 18 political protest -- 19 A: -- yeah, a political protest. 20 Q: And you knew there were claims that 21 there was a burial ground in the Park? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Now, the OPP never consulted with 24 you as Member of the Kettle Police Service regarding 25 this movement into the Park, did they?
1351 A: No. 2 Q: And they never consulted with you or 3 asked your opinion or advice on how to deal with any of 4 the events that were going on in the Park on September 5 4th or September 5th; is that fair? 6 A: Yeah, that's fair. 7 Q: Okay. But previously I -- I think I 8 had your evidence that with Darryl George the Kettle 9 Point Police Service was involved with the TRU Team and 10 other officers in dealing with that matter? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And in fact Miles Bressette, the 13 Staff Sergeant was the one at the end that Darryl George 14 surrendered to? 15 A: Yes. I think that's how it came 16 about, yeah. 17 Q: Yeah. And you were involved with 18 Slippery -- or Cecil Bernard George was involved with 19 that and Miles Bressette? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: All right. And that was back in 22 '92'? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then you mentioned an incident 25 regarding Roderick George where you went in, spoke with
1361 him about outstanding warrants and within an hour he 2 came out and surrendered himself to you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Sorry, I'm hearing 5 comments. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Roger? 10 A: Yeah, Roger. 11 Q: Roger, all right. I think we're 12 okay. But again, you were never consulted to go speak 13 with anybody that was in the Park or in the Camp on 14 September 4th, 5th, or 6th? 15 A: I don't recall, no. 16 Q: Now, you mention that you heard 17 something over the radio September 6th regarding women 18 and children. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And it seemed to me, hearing your 21 evidence, that you're a little unsure of the timeframe 22 as to when you heard that over the radio. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Is that fair? 25 A: That's fair.
1371 Q: Now, you heard it either on -- my -- 2 my note was Tach 1 or Tach 2 -- 3 A: Two (2) -- F2. 4 Q: Okay. It was on F2 that you heard 5 that and that within the hour you were called to the 6 Forest Department -- Detachment? 7 A: Yeah, I'm not sure about the -- the 8 timeframe, but it -- it was sometime after that. 9 Q: Some time after, but is it fair to 10 say within an hour, hour and a half? 11 A: Hour to an hour and half, yeah. 12 Somewhere around there. 13 Q: Okay. So, fairly close to that. 14 A: Somewheres, yeah. 15 Q: All right. And I suggest to you 16 that you went back to the Forest Detachment around 17 midnight. Would that seem accurate? 18 A: I'm -- I'm guessing that's when they 19 called me in. 20 Q: Okay. Again, your notes -- 21 A: I wish they were here. 22 Q: -- your book would be helpful, 23 wouldn't they? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. If I understood you
1381 correctly, you walked right into the middle of a 2 briefing being given by Sergeant Wright? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you had some familiarity with 5 Sergeant Wright because he, if I understand it 6 correctly, was involved with the Darryl George incident 7 as well. Do you recall his presence at that time? 8 A: It was either Mark Wright, Mr. 9 Lacroix, Stan Korosec. He -- he may have been there, 10 yes. 11 Q: Okay. And you knew all of those 12 fellows before that timeframe? 13 A: Yeah, I was familiar with them, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Do you remember who was at 15 the briefing -- 16 A: In the room? 17 Q: -- other than Sergeant Wright? 18 A: No. No, there was just a group 19 of -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- you know, a lot of people. 22 Q: How many people do you recall being 23 there? 24 A: I -- I'm going to say -- and it 25 wasn't like -- it -- it wasn't like a briefing where
1391 everybody was listening, there was a lot of other issues 2 being addressed by other people and there was maybe six 3 (6) -- seven (7) people at that moment standing in front 4 of Mr. Wright. 5 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say there was a 6 lot of activity at the Forest Detachment when you walked 7 in the door? 8 A: Yes. Of course, yes. 9 Q: All right. And there was a number 10 of different things going on, one (1) of which was 11 Sergeant Wright giving this briefing on what just 12 occurred? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And if I understand your 15 evidence correctly, he specifically used the terms, 16 "Dudley George had been shot."? 17 A: I -- I believe it was in -- in that 18 line, yes. 19 Q: Okay, but you specifically remember 20 the -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- name Dudley George being used? 23 A: Dudley George, yeah. 24 A: Okay. And if I understood you 25 correctly, there was some comment by Detective Wright or
1401 Sergeant Wright that First Nations officers required 2 somebody, presumably an OPP officer, to be outside their 3 door for safety reason? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do I understand you correctly in 6 -- in that he said nothing about members of the Kettle 7 Point Police Services having any kind of protection or 8 he wasn't all that concerned about your safety? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: You mentioned that he'd said 11 something about threats having been made. 12 Do you recall anything more specific 13 about what these threats were? 14 A: No. No. No, just that -- that he 15 wanted OPP officers to stand by and guard all the First 16 Nations Officers' houses. 17 Q: Right. But he didn't specifically 18 tell you, you weren't in danger, did he? 19 A: He didn't say nothing, that's why I 20 asked him, What about the officers on Kettle Point? 21 A: Right. You felt that you were sort 22 off to the side and you weren't involved in that 23 conversation too much, at least from a safety concern? 24 A: Right, yes. 25 Q: All right. But, in fact, you were
1411 part of the group that subsequently returned later to 2 the Park and did patrols where you were unarmed, 3 correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you feel your safety was in 6 jeopardy when you were doing those patrols? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You had an agreement in place and 9 you were doing what you were required to do under the 10 agreement? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All of a sudden you're back in doing 13 something and doing these patrols? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And I wasn't sure, but 16 was this as of the next day, September 7th, the 8th, 17 9th; do you recall which day? 18 A: I don't -- I don't believe it was 19 the very next day. I think it took a couple of days to 20 come up with this because officers from Saugeen and 21 other Anishnaabeg police services had to come down and 22 get into place. I don't think it took the next day. 23 Q: No, but within a couple of days. 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: All right. And do you recall who
1421 called these officers from Saugeen? 2 A: I think maybe Inspector Potts. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: He might have been a part of this -- 5 Q: Okay. And do you recall any 6 difficulties experienced by the Saugeen officers or by 7 yourself in terms of acceptance by the residents? 8 A: By the residents? 9 Q: In coming in and doing these 10 patrols? Was there any difficulty with the residents at 11 that time? 12 A: No, they didn't convey any -- any 13 concerns to us, no. I think they were happy that 14 something was happening. 15 Q: Okay. I understand from your 16 evidence that you also attended on September 7th and saw 17 a St. John's ambulance and trailer. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Or at least something that was -- 20 A: Similar to. 21 Q: -- similar to; had decals of St. 22 John's ambulance? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did this concern you that something 25 that looked like a St. John's ambulance was being used
1431 as a communications centre? 2 A: I don't know -- I don't know if it 3 concerned me as much as confused me. 4 Q: It surprise you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Seemed a little extraordinary? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you weren't consulted in any 9 way, shape or form about setting up a communications 10 centre on East Parkway Drive were you? 11 A: Insulted? I don't understand. 12 Q: Consulted -- 13 A: Oh -- 14 Q: -- on setting that up on -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- in that area? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No, and do you know if Kettle Point 19 police services, in general, were ever consulted in 20 setting that up? 21 A: I don't believe so. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Those
1441 are all my questions. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Mr. Scullion. Mr. George, I think we can -- 4 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I will be very 5 brief. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then I 7 think we can do you before lunch. Why don't you 8 continue? 9 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Thank you, 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Constable 14 Kaczanowski. As you know, my name is Jonathan George 15 and I, along with Mr. Henderson, represent the Chippewas 16 of Kettle and Stony Point and several individuals 17 including Cecil Bernard George. 18 I'll be very brief. The first thing I 19 want to canvass with you, you spoke at length with both 20 Mr. Scullion and Ms. Hensel about the briefing you 21 attended when Mark Wright was there and your concern 22 over his lack of concern for the Kettle Point police 23 officers. 24 Do you recall talking about that -- 25 A: Yes.
1451 Q: -- obviously? Okay. And 2 contextually, I think it's important to point out that 3 what Detective Wright was referring to, that being the 4 First Nations OPP officers, there were, in fact, four 5 (4) members of the Kettle and Stony Point First Nations 6 who were local OPP officers? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And that was Carmine 9 (phonetic) Bressette, Phil George -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- Luke George and Vince George? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. Now, I also wanted to explore 14 very briefly, because again Ms. Hensel and Mr. Scullion 15 did it as well, the 1992 incident involving Darryl Lee 16 George. 17 Now, as I understand your testimony, 18 Constable Kaczanowski, Miles Bressette at that time was 19 the Sergeant or supervisor -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- of the Kettle Point police 22 service? Okay. And that the information you received 23 with respect to Darryl Lee George was that there was a 24 warrant out for his arrest. 25 Is that the information you received?
1461 A: Yeah, no, no. I think it was he was 2 wanted and there may have been a warrant -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- in place, but he was wanted for 5 assault. 6 Q: And you personally received that 7 information? 8 A: Yes, I was the investigating officer 9 in that incident. 10 Q: And I take it from your testimony 11 that you passed that information along to Sergeant 12 Bressette -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- who in turn passed it along to 15 the Ontario Provincial Police? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And I also understand from 18 your testimony that arrangements were made for the TRU 19 Team to attend at the First Nation? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And if you recall, were you 22 and Sergeant Bressette involved in that or were you 23 simply informed that the TRU Team would be attending? 24 A: I believe Sergeant Bressette 25 requested it.
1471 Q: Okay. Now, Wade Lacroix, I take it 2 you knew him as an Inspector who was the Detachment 3 Commander in Lambton County? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And prior to that time, did 6 you know him as a Sergeant or Staff Sergeant involved in 7 the TRU team in this region? 8 A: I'm not sure how many hats he was 9 wearing at that time. 10 Q: You can't recall -- 11 A: I can't recall specifically if he 12 was in charge of the TRU Team or not, no. 13 Q: Okay. So, given that, I take it you 14 don't know whether or not he was involved in the 1992 15 incident -- 16 A: There was a lot people that attended 17 and -- 18 Q: -- involving Darryl Lee -- 19 A: -- I'm not sure if he was there at 20 the date. 21 Q: You don't recall him specifically? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: Do you recall who was involved or 24 who was supervising the TRU Team on that occasion? 25 A: I do recall Sergeant Korosec --
1481 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- being there. 3 Q: And do you recall Sergeant Korosec 4 or any other Member of the -- first of all, I'll tell 5 you this Constable Kaczanowski, that Bernard George 6 previously testified that he at some point during that 7 incident, got inside the perimeter, spoke to Darrel Lee 8 George and facilitated his surrender to a Band 9 constable. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And you were there at the time, I 12 take it? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You were aware of that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I take it, from your view, you 17 found Cecil Bernard George to be of assistance in that 18 incident? 19 A: I believe so, yes. 20 Q: And do you know whether or not Mr. 21 Korosec was involved in or enacted directly with Cecil 22 Bernard George? 23 A: I don't -- I don't know if they 24 spoke. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you very much,
1491 Constable Kaczanowski. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. I think this is a good time to take -- this 4 a good time to take a lunch break. So we'll take an 5 hour and fifteen (15) minutes. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 7 adjourned until 1:45. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 12:28 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 1:45 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see we're 15 up to Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 17 Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 afternoon. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Constable, I am 23 Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm going to be asking you 24 questions on behalf of the OPP today. 25 And I'd like to begin, sir, if I may with
1501 the issue of policing the Stoney Point land and I'm going 2 to refer to it, very generally, in those terms. 3 And you've already told us, sir, that 4 between the period of May 1993 up until the beginning of 5 September of 1995, the area that has been sometimes 6 described as the Military Base, that came within the 7 territorial jurisdiction of the OPP, as far as you were 8 aware? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And furthermore, as far as you were 11 aware, the Ipperwash Provincial Park also came within the 12 territorial jurisdiction of the OPP? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And similarly, the areas 15 around the perimeter of that square of land, so the area 16 from Highway 21 north towards the lake, the area bounded 17 at Army Camp Road -- Army Camp Road itself, and as it 18 turns west into East Parkway Drive. 19 Again, that's within the territorial 20 jurisdiction of the OPP? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: So, not surprisingly, for example, 23 when you learned of the confrontation involving Gerald 24 George and Stewart George on the night of September the 25 6th, which we all know took place in the parking lot area
1511 near that intersection, it wasn't surprising to you that 2 it was the OPP involved in the investigation of that 3 matter? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Right. Okay. Now, so, it's quite 6 clear, then, the land that was occupied from May of 1993 7 up to and including September the 6th, 1995, the land 8 that was occupied by the Stoney Pointers fell within the 9 territorial jurisdiction of the OPP? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Leaving aside territorial 12 jurisdiction for a moment, I want -- I want to explore 13 the issue from a different perspective. 14 You described for us earlier an incident 15 where you and Constable Wolfe headed towards the inland 16 lakes on the Base and whereas you can't be specific as to 17 when that occurred, you can be specific that it occurred 18 some time between May of 1993 and September of 1995? 19 A: I -- I think I said I -- at that 20 time, there were people occupying the camp. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: And so I -- it could have been after 23 '95 also. 24 Q: Fair enough. Fair enough. All 25 right. But what is clear to us is that when you were
1521 found, if I can put it that way -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- by the individuals in the three 4 (3) cars that you described, it was very clear to you 5 that you were not welcome there. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I trust at the time you were in a 8 marked vehicle? 9 A: That's correct, yes. 10 Q: All right. So, it would be apparent 11 that you were a member of the Kettle and Stony Point 12 police service or if was after, for example, 1997, that 13 you were a member of the Anishnaabeg police? 14 A: I believe it was a First Nation -- I 15 was a Kettle Point police at that time. 16 Q: All right. But, it would have been 17 clear to the people with whom you were having contact by 18 the lake, that you were a First Nations officer? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: From the Kettle and Stony Point 21 police service? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And as you've indicated to us, 24 you were told in no uncertain terms to leave? 25 A: Yes.
1531 Q: And you described the moment as being 2 quite hostile? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I can advise you, sir, that we 5 heard some evidence from Carl Tolsma -- do you know who 6 Carl Tolsma is? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. We heard some evidence 9 from Carl Tolsma that it was the consensus of the people, 10 the occupiers of that land, that they wouldn't want or 11 didn't want to be policed by the Kettle and Stony Point 12 police. 13 And I trust, sir, in light of the 14 experience that you described for us involving Glenn 15 George and Constable Wolfe, it doesn't come as a surprise 16 to you that that was the consensus of the occupiers? 17 A: I think it was a total surprise to me 18 for them to act the way they did towards us, because at 19 that time I felt that, again, the animosity wasn't 20 directed to the Kettle Point police and that -- that 21 maybe contributed to the fact that why I went in there, 22 other than to look at the lake. 23 I had no concerns about the people. I 24 didn't feel that they were going to act the way they did 25 towards us.
1541 Q: All right. Let's look at it, though, 2 after the experience. The experience, I'm going to 3 suggest to you, sent a signal to you that there clearly 4 was some tension -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- between the occupiers, at least 7 the ones you had confronted during the occasion -- 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: -- and the Kettle and Stony Point 10 police. 11 A: Then I would have to believe my visit 12 into the camp at that time to the lakes would have been 13 prior to the incident. 14 Q: Right, right. And I expect logic 15 tells me that that when you went in to -- to the camp and 16 you were back at the lake it was prior to the shooting in 17 September of 1995? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: All right. Now, but what I'm getting 20 at is that in light of what you saw during that brief 21 confrontation at the lakes, the inland lakes, I trust 22 that you were getting a signal at that point at least, 23 that there was some animosity between the occupiers and 24 the Kettle and Stony Point police -- 25 A: Yes.
1551 Q: -- that there was -- all right, so 2 that there was some animus directed towards you as a 3 group? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right, fair enough. So, I gather 6 then, it doesn't come as a surprise to you to learn that 7 there was a consensus that the occupiers didn't wish to 8 be policed by the Kettle and Stony Point police? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right, good. Thank you. Now, 11 we've also heard that even when the OPP drew members of 12 the Kettle and Stony Point police service into assist 13 them in relation to something that related to the Base, 14 and I'm thinking in particular of your assistance on the 15 night of the helicopter shooting -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- we know that even when they 18 brought you in, you got taken away because, as you 19 testified, after about six (6) hours of being on duty, 20 you were told to leave that area pursuant to the 21 direction of Chief Tom Bressette? 22 A: Yes, yes. 23 Q: So, it wasn't at the direction of the 24 OPP that you had to leave, it was at the direction of the 25 chief of the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council?
1561 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And I trust, sir, that whereas there 7 was a certain administrative connection between the 8 Kettle and Stony Point police and the OPP, you also as a 9 police service had a certain accountability to the Police 10 Committee that was organized under the Band? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And so you had a certain 13 accountability to Chief Bressette and the Council as 14 well? 15 A: I don't recall us following any of 16 Council's directives. If there was a -- a directive to 17 be followed it would have been filtered through the 18 Police Committee. 19 Q: All right. Fair enough. So, 20 anything that had come from the Chief or the Council at 21 the very least, was filtered through the Police 22 Committee? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And the members of that Police 25 Committee included Council members?
1571 A: I -- I believe there would have been 2 at least one (1) Council member holding a portfolio. 3 Q: Thank you. You also told us and -- 4 and I want you to understand that the questions I ask you 5 are -- are no means directed from any sense of criticism, 6 all right, but you told us, sir, that in terms of your 7 training, you had not received any type of training of 8 negotiations and conflict resolution? 9 A: That was in one (1) sentence. I had 10 no training in negotiating. 11 Q: All right. Fair enough. 12 A: And conf -- resolutions, I think 13 that's an every day element of training on -- on how to 14 diffuse an argument. Each incident, when we deal with 15 somebody, there's an -- there's an element of resolution 16 that has to be, I guess, either self-taught or you're -- 17 you got an outline then to -- to go about it to see if 18 you can diffuse it that way. 19 Q: Common sense, one might say? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. All right. I'm talking about 22 something beyond the exercise of good judgement and 23 common sense. I'm talking about formal training and -- 24 and you've already answered the question in essence, but 25 you didn't have any formal training as a negotiator in
1581 the context of policing? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: All right. And I trust also, sir, 4 that except for what you may have learned at the police 5 college back in the early 1990s as sort of a basic 6 training, you hadn't received any specialized training in 7 crowd management? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Right. Okay. And as you've told us, 10 you were certainly aware that people had moved and taken 11 over the Park as of September the 4th, 1995? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you were certainly aware of an 14 increased police presence by specifically the OPP in the 15 immediate vicinity of the Park? 16 A: And what date are we talking? 17 Q: That's a fair question. In anywhere, 18 frankly, between the 4th and the 6th, 1995. 19 A: I became aware of it on the evening 20 of the 6th by hearing transmissions on a radio. 21 Q: So, you weren't aware of certain 22 checkpoints that had been set up in the vicinity of Army 23 Camp Road or East Parkway Drive in the days leading up to 24 September the 6th? 25
1591 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I -- I believe I -- I would have 4 knowledge at the corner of Ipperwash Road and East 5 Parkway. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: But nothing closer to the Park or the 9 Base? 10 A: Not that I -- not that I can recall. 11 Q: All right. And you'd agree with me, 12 and again it's not a criticism so I don't want you to 13 take it as such, but you'd agree with me that during the 14 period of September the 4th or the 6th you didn't offer 15 to assist in some way in dealing with the occupation of 16 the Park in terms of opening up and offering to assist 17 the OPP? 18 A: No, I didn't. 19 Q: All right. And again, it's not a 20 criticism, I want you to understand that. As far as 21 you're aware, sir, Chief Miles Bressette did not offer 22 any assistance to the OPP during the period of the 4th to 23 the 6th? 24 A: Not that I'm aware of. 25 Q: And again, sir, as far as you are
1601 aware, Chief Tom Bressette didn't take any steps, either 2 directly or through the Police Committee, to offer you or 3 your fellow officers as a means of assisting to deal with 4 the situation at the Park during the 4th to the 6th? 5 A: Not that I'm aware of. 6 Q: Okay. You were asked questions 7 earlier about the incident relating to Darryl George and 8 having -- having examined many officers over the years, 9 as a criminal lawyer I have tremendous sympathy for you, 10 that you're sitting there without the benefit of your 11 notes, so I want to offer you a bit of assistance in 12 terms of refreshing your memory. 13 The OPP at the request of -- of 14 investigators working for the Commission, asked for some 15 details as to that incident in terms of a date and who 16 the personnel were there and I want to provide you with 17 some of that information to see if this assists your 18 recollection, all right? 19 My understanding, sir, is that the date of 20 the incident involving Darryl George was February the 21 27th, 1995. Does that -- does that assist you in any 22 way? 23 A: With Darryl George? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: It's not assisting me; I don't have
1611 my notes before me. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. My 3 understanding, sir, that the incident commander was 4 Inspector Dale Linton of the OPP. 5 A: That's possible. 6 Q: Okay. My understanding, sir, that the 7 negotiators present included a Constable Dowell 8 (phonetic) and Sergeant Seltzer (phonetic). 9 Does that refresh your memory? 10 A: Brad Seltzer? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I -- I do recall him being present. 13 Q: All right. And I anticipate we're 14 going to hear that -- that Officer Seltzer was also 15 present during the period of September 5th and 6th, 1995. 16 Do you recall -- my understanding is that the members of 17 the TRU Team included Kent Skinner who was the true 18 leader? 19 A: I -- I think I had answered that 20 question, I wasn't sure who they were. 21 Q: All right. Again, just to be fair to 22 you, I'll -- I'll run by the names to see if it assists 23 you, all right? 24 My information is that Officer Skinner was 25 present, Officer Derus, D-E-R-U-S, Office O'Halloran,
1621 Officer Irvine, Officer McCormack, Officer Klym, Officer 2 Zapancic, Officer Morrissey and Office Beauchesne; do 3 any of those names ring a bell? 4 A: I'm sorry -- if I had a face to put 5 to the name maybe. 6 Q: Fair enough. I also understand, sir, 7 that further OPP members in a -- in attendance were P/C 8 Fuller, is that name familiar to you? I'm going -- it 9 would appear from your body language, the answer's no. 10 A: No, it's possible. That's a possible 11 motion. Okay. 12 Q: Fair enough. All right. Staff 13 Sergeant Lacroix or Lacroix? 14 A: That's where I think I had mentioned 15 I thought he was there. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: I didn't know what his capacity was 18 at that time. 19 Q: Fair enough. And it also -- I have 20 confirmation that -- that certainly Chief Miles Bressette 21 was present and we've already heard that. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. My understanding, sir, if 24 it assists you was that Mark Wright was not present for 25 this incident as you may have suggested earlier?
1631 A: I -- I may have. It was a high level 2 incident and at that time -- the reason I might have said 3 that is I believe Mark was at a lot of high incident 4 situations during that period. 5 Q: Fair enough. All right. You also 6 gave some evidence, sir, about your observing what you 7 believed were TRU officers outside of the Forest 8 Detachment when you arrived there not long after midnight 9 on September the 7th, 1995. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I trust, sir, you assumed that 12 they were TRU officers? 13 A: I assumed, based on what they were 14 wearing. 15 Q: All right. And fair to say that you 16 based that assumption on the fact that they weren't in a 17 traditional blue shirt uniform? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. You're not in a position, 20 I gather, sir, to draw a distinction between a TRU 21 officer and an ERT officer depending upon their uniform? 22 A: That's where the two (2) colours come 23 into play, the grey and green. 24 Q: That's your understanding? 25 A: That's my understanding.
1641 Q: All right. 2 A: And it was dark at that time. It was 3 just not the traditional uniform as you said earlier. 4 Q: Right. Okay. So, apart from -- from 5 being able to assist us that they weren't in a 6 traditional street kind of uniform -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- you can't -- you can't really 9 assist us as to whether or not the officers that you saw 10 were actually TRU officers as opposed to ERT officers? 11 A: That's fair to say. 12 Q: All right. Now, finally, sir, I want 13 to turn to the exchange that you had with Mark Wright at 14 the Forest Detachment. 15 And to assist you a little bit in terms of 16 timing, if you look at Tab 4 of the binder in front of 17 you, you're going to see an excerpt of scribed notes that 18 were kept during the relevant period and if you just turn 19 in to page 81 -- actually, I'm sorry, page 82, we'll 20 start there. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: A moments 25 indulgence, Mr. Commissioner.
1651 Do you have the number right there? 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yeah, it's one 3 zero zero (100) -- 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It's Document 5 1000 -- 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- 137. 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- 137. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: You'll notice, sir, that at the 11 bottom of the page there's an entry for what appears to 12 be 12:27 a.m. and the entry says, "Armed takedown outside 13 concluded" and I anticipate we're going to hear, sir that 14 that relates to a high-risk arrest that occurred outside 15 the detachment involving the three (3) individuals whom 16 you later observed inside the detachment. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. So, based upon that time, 19 is it fair to say, sir, that you arrived at the 20 detachment some time around 12:30? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And as you've indicated, 23 when you arrived is it fair to say things were quite 24 tense in the detachment? 25 A: Yes.
1661 Q: And fair to say that things were -- 2 were moving at a rather fast pace? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. All right. And you indicated 5 that -- I understand the document needs to be corrected. 6 The Document Number; it's 1002419. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 8 number I've got. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 11 Q: When you arrived you indicated that 12 you spoke briefly with Staff Sgt. Korosec. Was that the 13 first officer you -- you spoke with when you arrived to 14 the best of your recollection? 15 A: I'm -- I'm not sure, but he's the 16 first one I remember who took the time out to tell me 17 something. 18 Q: Fair enough. Fair enough. The 19 first person who, in the midst of -- of a fast-paced 20 tense situation was able to step aside and talk to you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And you -- you also 23 indicated that you then walked into what appeared to be a 24 briefing in process by Mark Wright; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
1671 Q: All right. 2 A: Now, I -- I don't know if, when I 3 spoke to Mr. Korosec, if he -- we were in the detachment 4 or if we were standing outside. I don't recall where, 5 but I do recall talking to him. 6 Q: I gather what you're telling me also 7 is, you can't be certain whether you spoke with Officer 8 Korosec before or after you heard the briefing by Officer 9 Wright? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. Fair enough. I -- I 12 don't think a great deal stands or falls on that, so we 13 won't worry about that, but fair to say you did come upon 14 a briefing in process by Officer Wright? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the things that 17 Officer Wright was telling everybody about was 18 information that Dudley George was dead, correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that his information was that 21 there were two (2) other people injured and one (1) of 22 those people was identified as a Nicholus Cotrelle? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that the third individual, they 25 did not have a name for?
1681 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. And -- and again, you may 3 not know the answer because again you came into it 4 midway, so to speak, were you aware by anything Officer 5 Wright was saying as to how he had learned that 6 information? 7 A: I'm not -- I don't know how he 8 obtained that information. 9 Q: All right. Now, you'll notice, sir, 10 on page 81 -- so if you turn back one (1) page -- you'll 11 notice at the entry of 2334 or 11:34 p.m. the scribe has 12 written: 13 "Rob Graham advises to Dale Linton he 14 received call that native officers Phil 15 George, Vince George, Carmen Bressette, 16 Luke George are in danger." 17 Now, you'd agree with me, sir, that the 18 four (4) officers that are identified in that scribe 19 entry are all members of the OPP, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And they're all First Nations 22 individuals? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And they're also members of the 25 Kettle and Stony Point band?
1691 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And as you've already 3 told us, Officer Wright was directing the officers in 4 front of him to ensure that the safety of those officers 5 was protected or secured, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And were you aware, sir, 8 at the time, I gather you weren't aware, that specific 9 threats had come in, in relation to those specific 10 officers? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: All right. So -- so, that we 13 understand the flavour of the exchange that follows, you 14 weren't aware at the time that specific threats had come 15 in, in relation to those specific officers? 16 A: I wasn't aware. 17 Q: Fair enough, fair enough. And I 18 trust also, sir, that you had no knowledge that indeed no 19 threat had come in, in relation to a First Nations 20 officer who was the member of Kettle and Stony Point 21 police service? 22 A: I wasn't aware of that. 23 Q: Right. So, you weren't aware that 24 the threats that came in were specific to OPP officers 25 only? Because, as you've already indicated --
1701 A: I've already said that, yes. 2 Q: Right. Fair enough. So, when you 3 are told, as a member of this group that these First 4 Nations OPP officers are to be secured, you then ask 5 Officer Wright, What about the Kettle Point officers? 6 You asked that question without the 7 benefit of the knowledge of what calls have come in, 8 correct? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: All right. And Officer Wright's 11 response was, What about the officers? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: Right? And you assumed that that 14 reflected a tone of not caring about the safety of the 15 officers, correct? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that was an assumption that you 18 made, in fairness, without the benefit of the context 19 that you and I have already discussed, right? 20 A: With all fairness, I made that 21 assumption, the fact that I was a police officer that 22 night. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: A man was just killed. 25 Q: Yes.
1711 A: I -- I would think that somebody 2 would have took into consideration of all the officers, 3 not only the four (4) mentioned here, but the ones that 4 were living in the vicinity of this. That's why I copped 5 an attitude about that. 6 Q: Okay. I appreciate your candour. 7 You'd agree, though, that when Officer Wright asked, what 8 about the officers, you didn't express to him what you've 9 just expressed to me? 10 Your reaction was to withdraw? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: Fair enough, okay. So you didn't -- 13 A: My concerns were about the officers 14 now at Kettle Point. 15 Q: No, I understand that. But you 16 didn't actually express that to Officer Wright? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Your reaction was to simply withdraw 19 from the situation? Rightly or wrongly, but that's what 20 you did? 21 A: I believe it was right. There was 22 other officers that need to be addressed. 23 Q: No, I understand that, that's not 24 what I'm getting at. 25 But my point is that you didn't convey
1721 your concerns to Officer Wright. You've already told us 2 that. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Okay. Now, I gather, then, in your 5 mind, you did have some concerns about officer safety and 6 when I say officer I mean the officers who were members 7 of the Kettle and Stony Point police? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Okay. Because you were concerned 10 that there was going to be retaliation directed towards 11 them? 12 A: Well not just to them, any officer. 13 Mr. Wright had conveyed his concerns about the four (4) 14 here, you know, but he took an abs -- the other officers. 15 16 You know, and there was a high tense -- 17 there was a possibility of anything happening. At that 18 time there was a lot of upset people, probably not 19 knowing how to direct their anger and any uniform was 20 vulnerable at that time. 21 Q: So, your point, sir, isn't even a 22 First Nations person in a uniform, you're talking about 23 anybody in a uniform? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I understand your point. All right.
1731 Because you understood that having regard to the -- the 2 build up of what had occurred and had culminated in the 3 shooting, police officers' safety and security was at 4 risk? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And as you've already told us, sir, 11 in your experience previously, you've always had a 12 favourable relationship with Mark Wright? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you very much, Constable, for 15 your time. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 Ms. Jones...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25
1741 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Officer Kaczanowski, my name is Karen 3 Jones, and I'm one of the lawyers who represents the 4 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 5 I wanted to ask you some questions about 6 your experiences between 1993 and 1995 during the period 7 of the occupation at the base and then the Park. 8 I understand from what you had said 9 earlier, that you returned to Canada in 1991 and you were 10 in the area from that time on and you talked a little bit 11 about fishing at the inland lakes? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: And I take it -- did you -- did you 14 have any experience or -- of being in that area when you 15 were a child or -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: So that all happened after 1991? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you talked a little bit about 20 fishing in that area. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, I take it you had been on the -- 23 on that property and had discovered some of the -- the 24 lakes and some of the other features of it? 25 A: Just the lakes.
1751 Q: Just the lakes, okay. And had you 2 started going there and fishing there fairly soon after 3 you got back to Canada? 4 A: Yeah, I believe it would be, because 5 it was a new -- new thing to me, being in Ontario to 6 fish, yes. 7 Q: Yeah, yeah. And prior to the 8 incident that you spoke about, the incident involving 9 Glenn George, had you had any problems getting onto the 10 base or having access to the lakes or had anyone bothered 11 you about fishing there? 12 A: Nobody ever bothered me. I went to 13 the back fence. 14 Q: Sure. And I was going to ask you 15 about that, because I take it in your experiences, that 16 there's a lot of ways to get onto that land? 17 A: Of course, yes. 18 Q: And you can drive on, or you can walk 19 on, but it's easy -- it's easy to get access through a 20 variety of different places? 21 A: Yes, where I went down the walk was 22 no more than a couple of hundred yards from the fence. 23 Q: Okay. And you've told us a little 24 bit about what happened in the incident with Glenn George 25 and I just wanted to make sure that we had the details of
1761 that -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: First of all you weren't sure at the 4 time but as from your answers to questions, it was 5 probably before September 6th, 1995; is that right? 6 A: Yes, I would -- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- believe it would be. 9 Q: Okay. And you had talked about three 10 (3) vehicles coming up? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you recognize -- you said you 13 had a -- Glenn George was there. Did you recognize any 14 of the other people in the other vehicles? 15 A: I can't remember everybody. 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: I -- I do recall one (1) person 18 because it was my cousin, Gina George, she was there. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And other than that, I kept my focus 21 on Glenn, because he was quite vocal. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you 23 said that you were at or by the lakes -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- and then three (3) vehicles drove
1771 up? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did -- and Glenn was in one of the 4 vehicles -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- Glenn George? Did he get out of 7 the vehicle? 8 A: Yes, he did. 9 Q: Did anybody else get out of the 10 vehicles? 11 A: I believe several people stepped out 12 of the vehicles. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But again, I kept my attention fully 15 on him. 16 Q: And when they stepped out of the 17 vehicles, were they coming up close to you or staying 18 back or did it feel like you were -- 19 A: Glenn George -- Glenn George came 20 face to face with me. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: The others were behind him. 23 Q: Okay. And what did Glenn George say 24 to you? 25 A: He basically says that we're not
1781 allowed in the -- in the camp there. We're not allowed 2 back there. I explained to him that I was just out here 3 showing the lakes to Constable Wolfe -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- and I started to get a little bit 6 personally involved, because I felt I had interest in the 7 land itself, and why I couldn't come back here to fish or 8 show the constable the lake. 9 Q: And did you express that -- 10 A: We -- we couldn't -- 11 Q: -- to Glenn? 12 A: Yeah, we conversed a little bit, but 13 I was in uniform and I had to resort back to being an 14 police officer and -- 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: -- should get out of there. 17 Q: Sure. Did you have a sense from your 18 back and forth conversation with Glenn George, that his 19 concern about you being on the property was because you 20 were a police officer or it was for some other reason? 21 A: I believe it was strictly a police 22 officer. 23 Q: Okay. And you had said in your 24 answers to Ms. Tuck-Jackson that you had known that there 25 was animosity, but you hadn't thought up to that point in
1791 time that it would be directed towards you -- 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: -- as a police officer. What 4 animosity were you aware of and -- and let me just break 5 it down a little bit, because that's a pretty broad 6 question. 7 Did you have any knowledge or information 8 or belief about animosity as between people at Kettle 9 Point and people who were on the Base? 10 A: There was definitely a division at 11 that time. Both the Kettle Point and Stony Point, there 12 were issues about was it one (1) reserve, was it two (2) 13 reserves -- 14 Q: Right. 15 A: -- and people were taking stands on - 16 - on both sides. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: When I say animosity I -- I believe I 19 just felt comfortable being able to talk to everybody 20 that was occupying the Camp, I never had any real harsh 21 words with anybody and that's -- and that's what I was 22 saying. I was comfortable with them. 23 Q: Okay, prior to that time? 24 A: Prior to that. 25 Q: Prior to the -- okay. And I wanted
1801 to ask you some questions about that too, because I 2 wasn't clear from your evidence about what contact you 3 would have had with the occupiers on the Base prior to 4 your interaction with Glenn George. 5 Did you go visiting people on the Base? 6 A: I -- I've already answered that. No, 7 I didn't go on the Base and visit. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: But, I was -- and I am related to 10 people that were occupying the Camp. 11 Q: Okay. Would you have had contact 12 with those people when they came to Kettle Point or off 13 the Base? 14 A: I'm sure I did. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Again, they were relatives of mine, 17 maybe at Christmas or -- 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: -- a different holiday. 20 Q: Yeah, okay. And in the summer of 21 1995, you've told us that you didn't go on the Base, did 22 you know who was occupying the Base at that time? 23 A: Who was? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: You mean names?
1811 Q: Yeah. 2 A: I would have to be able -- I'd have 3 to take some time -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- to -- to think about that, I 6 mean -- 7 Q: I would have thought fairly that 8 you'd say you knew some of the people that were there -- 9 A: Yeah, yeah, I might know -- 10 Q: -- but you might not have known all 11 of them that were there. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Is that right? 14 A: My -- my knowledge was that there was 15 other people that were coming that were not Band members. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: You know, and they were, like, 18 homesteading. This is just conversation talk, you know, 19 and I couldn't confirm it, it was just talk. 20 Q: Okay. And was that talk at Kettle 21 Point or was that talk somewhere else? 22 A: I believe it would be at Kettle 23 Point. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Because I was living out at Kettle
1821 Point. I didn't -- I didn't really have a life during 2 that time. I stayed on Kettle Point and I worked on 3 Kettle Point. 4 Q: Okay. So, I understand then, in 5 1995, you would have heard some conversation at Kettle 6 Point about what was going on in the Base? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you would have, perhaps, have had 9 some discussion or had some contact with your relatives-- 10 A: Relatives -- 11 Q: -- some of who were on the base. 12 A: -- friends, neighbours, yes. 13 Q: Right. And outside of that, I take 14 it that you didn't have any knowledge about the Base? 15 A: About the Base? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: What do you mean? 18 Q: Who was on the Base -- 19 A: Oh, okay. 20 Q: -- and what was going on on the Base? 21 A: Yeah. I mean I could come up with 22 names that I -- I believe may have been living on the 23 Base and -- and again I don't know for -- what the status 24 -- were they were permanent there or just temporary. 25 Q: Sure.
1831 A: You know -- 2 Q: Yeah, okay. And did you have any 3 knowledge or information or belief about some of the 4 activities that were going on in the Base and 5 particularly, did you know whether or not people were 6 hunting on the Base or had guns on the Base? 7 A: I had no knowledge about any firearms 8 there, no. 9 Q: Okay. You've talked a little bit 10 about -- you were asked some questions about 11 intelligence and I think your answer was that you didn't' 12 have any communications with the OPP that you would 13 describe as intelligence, but you might have been asked 14 about some individuals and given them some information 15 about that. Do you recall that? 16 A: I -- I imagine it was in a context 17 where there may have been alleged incidents within the 18 Camp and it was OPP investigations and maybe officers 19 have talked to us about asking what type of person this 20 was and his -- his characteristics, things like that, but 21 as far as intelligence, I don't believe -- 22 Q: Sure. 23 A: -- I don't know where intelligence is 24 going with this. I -- they might have -- 25 Q: No, no, I -- was just trying to get a
1841 -- a sense of -- a better sense of your answer. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: Do you recall specifically being 4 asked by anyone about occupiers of the base? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No? So in general terms, it might 7 have happened but you don't have a -- 8 A: Yeah, yeah, 9 Q: -- recollection of that? 10 A: I wouldn't put it in a form of 11 calling it intelligence unless they wanted -- the OPP 12 wanted to call it intelligence by asking what kind of 13 person this is, you know, reference his character. 14 Q: Right, and again, you don't have any 15 specific recollections of someone asking you that kind of 16 information? 17 A: Yeah, I don't -- I don't recall. 18 Q: Yeah, okay. I wanted then to go on 19 to September the 6th, 1995. You had told us that you 20 knew that Gerald George had reported being assaulted and 21 I realize that this is difficult, because it was a long 22 time ago, but I'm wondering if you can recall at all, 23 where you got that information from? 24 A: I -- I can't recall, no. 25 Q: Okay.
1851 A: I don't know if it was sent from the 2 Forest Detachment, if it was a conversation that was with 3 myself and somebody else. I don't recall. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I just knew that it was going to be 6 an investigation with the OPP -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- based on where it occurred. 9 Q: Okay. And you then spoke a little 10 bit about a radio communications that you were hearing, 11 and you spoke about there being two (2) channels on your 12 radio, F-1 and F-2 -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- can you help us understand the 15 difference between the channels or if they -- if you 16 could receive different information from different 17 sources on F-1 than you could F-2? 18 A: F-1 at that time was your -- your 19 general radio frequence used by the local OPP -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- and our Detachment. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I really can't recall how far it 24 extended south, you know, Lambton County -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
1861 A: -- and Frequence 2 would be used for 2 projects, surveillance. For example, if myself and 3 another officer at Kettle Point were in surveillance, we 4 would go to Frequency 2 for less traffic, because all the 5 calls would come in on Frequency 1. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And we were out in surveillance, and 8 we didn't want to be detected, we want the least amount 9 of communications over the radio or else we'd, you know, 10 we'd be heard so we would go to 2. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There was less traffic -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- verbal traffic on that. 15 Q: Okay. And one of the -- some of the 16 witnesses that we've heard testify to date have talked 17 about having their own police scanners and picking up 18 and/or intercepting transmissions from the police or the 19 fire department or other people who would use those 20 bands. 21 Do you know whether or not both F-1 and F- 22 2 could be picked up on a police scanner? 23 A: I wouldn't know that. 24 Q: Okay. And again, this is hard 25 because of timing, but I thought I had understood that
1871 you had said that you had heard something on F-2 -- 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Something about, don't shoot women 4 and children, or something like that. 5 A: Yes, something to that. 6 Q: And you thought it was about at 7:30 7 or eight o'clock, and if I've got that -- 8 A: Yeah, again, I wish I had my notes to 9 confirm that -- 10 Q: Oh, I know. 11 A: -- it was -- I can't tell you exactly 12 the -- 13 Q: No, no -- 14 A: -- time. 15 Q: -- I appreciate that, I'm just 16 wondering if you can turn your mind back, if you can 17 think of was it light out or dusk out or dark out? 18 A: It -- it was -- I believe it was just 19 at dark, you know, dusk. 20 Q: Just at dusk? 21 A: Yeah, I was on the beach. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: And I was bored. I was sitting there 24 and I just went to Frequency 2 for -- I don't know why. 25 Q: Something -- something to do?
1881 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: I mean you find a lot of things to do 4 when you're bored -- 5 Q: You surely do. 6 A: -- and a lot of it don't amount to 7 anything. 8 Q: Right, okay. So it was probably 9 about dusk and on September the 6th, I mean we've heard 10 from a variety of people, but there seems to be a general 11 view that it would be getting dusk about 8:30, 8:00/8:30, 12 about that time of year. Does that sound right? 13 A: Yeah. Yeah. 14 Q: And when you say you were on the 15 beach, you were on the beach at Kettle Point; is that 16 right? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Okay. And you'd said that soon after 19 that you got an order to attend at Forest? 20 A: Yeah. I -- I don't know what I mean 21 by soon. I -- I don't know the time frame between the 22 time I hard that transmission and the time I -- 23 Q: Okay. Because I was -- 24 A: I'm guessing an hour or two (2) 25 hours. Somewhere in there. And I think somebody was
1891 trying to suggest it was an hour. 2 Q: It could -- it could've been any 3 period of time. You don't know. 4 A: It could have been any period, yes. 5 Q: Okay. I understand that. And then 6 you talked about going into the police station at Forest 7 and seeing three (3) people in the garage area spread 8 eagled; I take that laying face down on the ground. 9 A: Laying down, yes. 10 Q: And I just wanted to advise you that 11 we have heard from one of those people, Jeremiah George 12 and he testified here on February the 7th of this year, 13 he's been a Witness at this Inquiry, and according to his 14 evidence which is on page 158 of the transcript, when he 15 was taken by the police into the station, into the garage 16 area, he was standing up against the wall. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Not spread eagled on the ground. 19 A: Okay. I may have been mistaken. I 20 believe there -- there two (2) people laying on the floor 21 when I walked in. Two (2) to three (3). I thought there 22 was three (3). 23 Q: Okay. The other piece of information 24 that we have about that is, we have a SIU statement that 25 was taken from Deanna Bressette who, according to her SIU
1901 statement and for the assistance of Counsel, it's Inquiry 2 Document Number 1002233. 3 And she told the SIU that when she was -- 4 and she was one of the other people that you saw at the 5 Forest Detachment I take it, and what she told the SIU is 6 that when she and Roseanne and Jeremiah were taken into 7 the Detachment, they were told to stand up against the 8 wall and stay there and not look around. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I still believe that I seen them on 13 the floor. 14 Q: Okay. I just -- I -- I think it's 15 important -- 16 A: Yeah, you're trying to discredit my - 17 - my -- and again -- 18 Q: No. I think it's important -- 19 A: -- you've come to me ten (10) years 20 later, you know -- 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: -- this Inquiry comes to me ten (10) 23 years later, I don't have my notebooks, I know who I seen 24 there, I may have been mistake in their positions, but 25 they were in there.
1911 Q: I -- I got to tell you, I have an 2 enormous amount of appreciation for how hard it is for 3 people to try and recall ten (10) years later what 4 happened -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- and especially when you don't have 7 the benefit of your notebooks. I -- I appreciate that 8 and I'm not trying to discredit you -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- what I'm trying to let you know is 11 what the people directly involved in -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- that incident said about it at the 14 time and see if that gives you any assistance in terms of 15 what you recall. 16 A: Well, I -- I can't go based on what 17 they said. It's just again, I wish I had my notes to 18 refer to. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: And if it says it was spread eagled, 21 then that's what I believe it was that I seen or if my 22 notes would indicate that it wasn't, I don't know. 23 Q: Okay. So -- 24 A: But I do recall seeing the three (3) 25 of them in the Detachment being detained.
1921 Q: Okay. And beyond that you would rely 2 on your notes and you don't have -- 3 A: Exactly. 4 Q: -- your notes so you can't say one 5 way or the other; is that fair enough? 6 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And I don't have any other 8 questions for you. Thank you very much. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Ms. Jones. 11 I think Ms. McAleer is next. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Constable, my name is 15 Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the lawyers who's acting 16 for the former Premier Mike Harris. I only have two (2) 17 brief areas that I want to ask you questions about. The 18 first relates to the actual occupation of the Provincial 19 Park on September 4th of 1995. 20 Now, I understand from your evidence that 21 you did not have any prior knowledge that the occupiers 22 in the Army Camp were going to move in and take the 23 Provincial Park on September 4th, 1995? That's correct, 24 isn't it? 25 A: I didn't have knowledge that they
1931 were going to go into there -- I had knowledge that they 2 were claiming that it was a burial ground. 3 Q: Okay. Now, had you heard people 4 discussing the possibility, though, that the occupiers 5 were going to go into the Provincial Park prior to it 6 actually happening? 7 A: I don't believe I did. 8 Q: Okay. Now, with respect to the prior 9 knowledge about burial grounds in the Provincial Park, 10 did you -- I take it you -- you were aware of that prior 11 to September 4th of 1995? 12 A: Excuse me? I'm sorry. 13 Q: Prior to September 4th, of 1995, you 14 had heard people discussing the possibility of burial 15 grounds in the Provincial Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And did you have any 18 discussions with any members of the Kettle and Stony 19 Point Council about the possibility or the suggestion or 20 the allegation that there were burial grounds in the 21 Provincial Park? 22 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall if I 23 did or not. 24 Q: Okay. Do you recall if you ever 25 spoke to Chief Tom Bressette about that?
1941 A: About there being a burial ground in 2 there? 3 Q: Right. Or that you heard people 4 talking about it, the possibility that there were burial 5 grounds in the Provincial Park? 6 A: I think where I obtained most of my 7 information about that issue was the media. They were 8 talking about it being a -- a burial site. Now, I -- I 9 don't know if that came in after -- you know, after the - 10 - the takeover of the Park or before. 11 I don't know if I had knowledge of that, 12 there being a burial ground there -- 13 Q: Okay, so -- 14 A: -- until the -- until they went into 15 the Park itself. I don't know. 16 Q: All right. So, you -- you may not 17 have heard anything about the possibility of burial 18 grounds in the Provincial Park prior to September 4th of 19 1995? 20 A: Right, I may not have. Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Do you remember ever talking 22 to Miles Bressette about the possibility of burial 23 grounds in the Provincial Park? 24 A: Before or after the 4th? 25 Q: Either occasion.
1951 A: I would -- I would think it would be 2 after. 3 Q: Okay. No recollection of having -- 4 A: No recollection, no. There was a lot 5 of talk about it once they -- that area was occupied, so, 6 to -- to answer your question, that's where I obtained a 7 lot of my information about that particular area. 8 Q: Was after the fact? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. Do you have any re-examination? 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. I just have 14 two (2) questions for the constable. 15 16 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Just to clarify, prior to the 18 briefing that you attended on the evening -- late in the 19 evening on September 6th that was led by Detective Sgt. 20 Wright, did you attend any briefings concerning the 21 occupation of the Park by the OPP prior to the -- to the 22 September 6th briefing? 23 A: Of the Park between the 4th and the 24 6th? 25 Q: Yes.
1961 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: You don't recall. 3 And just to clarify one (1) other point, 4 we've heard the phrase referred to earlier, "high-risk 5 takedown"; what do you understand that phrase to mean? 6 A: That a situation has -- has brought 7 an officer to a level of alertness where his -- his 8 firearm is drawn, whether he, you know, has been 9 assaulted or fears weapons involved, namely a weapons 10 issue is what I call a high-risk takedown. We get 11 information from suspects, they may be armed and 12 dangerous. That would be considered a high-risk takedown 13 if we've located him. 14 Q: All right. Thank you, Constable 15 Kaczanowski. Thank you very much for your assistance 16 today, here. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much for coming and giving us your testimony. 19 20 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 23 to just go right into the next witness or do you want to 24 take a break? 25 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: If we can --
1971 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just go into 2 the -- 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- we can begin 4 with Mr. Bressette? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 10 Bressette. 11 MR. MILES BRESSETTE: Good afternoon. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prepare to swear 13 on the bible, affirm or use an alternate oath, sir. 14 MR. MILES BRESSETTE: Swear on the bible. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Take the bible in your 16 right hand please. State your name in full. 17 MR. MILES BRESSETTE: Miles Charles 18 Bressette. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 20 21 MILES CHARLES BRESSETTE, Sworn: 22 23 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Bressette. Thank 25 you for attending here today.
1981 I understand that your full name is Miles 2 Charles Bressette? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what is your date of birth? 5 A: December 3rd, 1954. 6 Q: And who are your parents? 7 A: Laurence and Anika (phonetic) 8 Bressette. 9 Q: Are they from Kettle -- Kettle and 10 Stony Point? 11 A: My father was from Stony Point, my 12 mother from Kettle Point. 13 Q: Okay. And who were your grandparents 14 on your father's side? 15 A: Charles and Mildred Bressette. 16 Q: Were they both from Stoney Point? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Just my grandmother. 20 Q: That was Mildred Bressette? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thanks. And your mother's parents; 23 what were their names? 24 A: Eva Follas (phonetic) and I can't 25 remember who my grandparent -- father was on that side.
1991 Q: Would it have been Maurice George or 2 Morris George? 3 A: I'm not sure. 4 Q: Okay. Are you a member of Kettle and 5 Stony Point First Nation? 6 A: Yes, I am. 7 Q: And were you raised at Kettle Point? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I'm just going to go ask you some 10 questions about your background and training and 11 policing. 12 When did you begin policing, what year? 13 A: 1985. 14 Q: Okay. And where did you receive your 15 initial police training, your first police training? 16 A: At the Ontario Police Academy, 17 Ontario Provincial Police Academy in Brampton. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I took an initial three (3) weeks, 20 when I first started at that facility then I went to -- 21 Q: Sorry, Mr. Millar is just adjusting 22 the mic for you. 23 A: Then I attended the Ontario Police 24 College in Aylmer. 25 Q: Okay. And so your initial training
2001 was in 1985 when you -- or just prior to you beginning 2 policing? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when did you attend the course in 5 Aylmer? 6 A: October -- sorry, it must have been 7 about November, 1995, approximately. 8 Q: '95? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay, so that was ten (10) years 11 later. 12 A: Oh, I'm sorry, 1985. 13 Q: Thank you. And after that, did you 14 receive any other police training or take any other 15 courses? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Can you describe those for us, the -- 18 when you took them and the names of the courses? 19 A: I took community policing training in 20 1986 and then I was transferred to Kettle Point 21 approximately 1988. I took a Sergeant development course 22 out of the Ontario Provincial Police Academy in Brampton. 23 I took a Breath Technician course out of 24 Toronto, Senior Police Management course out of Ottawa. 25 Q: When was that, Mr. Bressette?
2011 A: Approximately 1992 -- no, '94, sorry, 2 and that was about it. 3 Q: And that was the extent of it? Thank 4 you. 5 And as part of any of those courses, did 6 you receive any training in negotiation? 7 A: Yes, out of the Senior Police 8 Management course out of Ottawa. I also took a -- I 9 think it was a three (3) week course out of -- that the 10 Band Council set up through their administration in the 11 town of Forest, here, in regards to negotiation tactics. 12 Q: And when was that? 13 A: I'm not really sure, that must have 14 been around 1995. 15 Q: Would that have been prior to 16 September of 1995, do you believe? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And do you have any training in 19 conflict resolution? 20 A: Yes, a little bit and that was 21 through the Senior Police Management in regards to 22 working with various personnel. 23 Q: And that's the extent of the formal 24 training that you have? 25 A: Yes.
2021 Q: So, part of your training would have 2 entailed the maintaining of notes -- extensive notes -- 3 about your activities as a police officer? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And are you currently in 6 possession of your notebooks for the period 1993 through 7 1995? 8 A: No, I'm not. 9 Q: Okay. And I can advise the -- the 10 Commissioner again as I did this morning with Constable 11 Kaczanowski that we have made extensive efforts to locate 12 Mr. Bressette's notebooks, thus far unsuccessful. 13 If they are located, we will produce them 14 to the Parties and to Mr. Bressette as well. 15 Q: Do you -- where do you think your -- 16 your police notebooks are? 17 A: There -- there was an audit done on 18 the Kettle and Stony Point Police Department -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- beginning in 1995 -- late '95 and 21 I was on thirty (30) day medical leave when the Band 22 Council went into the police department and removed all 23 the locks off my personal filing cabinet and they took 24 possession of all documents within my filing cabinet. 25 Q: And have you seen those notes since?
2031 A: In another hearing I was -- I went to 2 the Band Council's lawyer to review some of my notebooks 3 and I reviewed a number of notebooks also noted at that 4 particular time that there were specific notebooks 5 missing and that was the notebooks surrounding the time 6 of September 1995. 7 Q: All right. So they weren't -- they 8 did not form part of those proceedings? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And you haven't reviewed them 11 since September 1995? 12 A: They were not there. 13 Q: Okay. Okay. Returning, again, to 14 your professional background, what was your first 15 engagement as a police officer? Where was that? 16 A: It was at Chippewa Muncey First 17 Nations. 18 Q: When did -- when were -- when did you 19 begin serving as a police officer there? 20 A: Approximately 1985 until 1988. 21 Q: Okay. Now, I understand that that 22 particular community is comprised of three (3) reserves 23 with three (3) nations -- three (3) First Nations 24 including the Chippewas of the Thames First Nation, the 25 Muncey Delaware Nation and Oneida.
2041 A: Yes, at that particular time Oneida 2 had its own police force under First Nations policing. 3 Q: Okay, and can you describe to me the 4 policing service agreement that would have governed your 5 service to Muncey Delaware Nation and Chippewas of the 6 Thames 7 A: I believe that was set up by a 8 tripartite agreement. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: By Federal and Provincial governments 11 along with First Nations. 12 Q: Okay, and under that agreement, was 13 it your understanding that you were employed by the Band 14 or by the OPP? 15 A: There was always a conflict there. 16 We weren't sure who we were employed by. 17 Q: Did you take direction from the OPP 18 in your capacity as a police officer there? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you take direction from Chief and 21 Council? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Did that -- the direction that 24 you took from each of those two (2) entities, the Band 25 and the OPP, was that occasionally in conflict?
2051 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: And how did you resolve such 3 conflicts, if they were resolved? 4 A: There was one occasion that I can 5 remember, the Chief and Council had difficulty with too 6 many impaired drivers being arrested. 7 I was suspended for approximately two (2) 8 weeks. I worked under the Glencoe Ontario Provincial 9 Police Detachment and people from -- from the special 10 constable program, it was called the special constable 11 native program back then. 12 People came from Toronto and settled it, 13 met with the leadership of Chippewa Muncey and I was 14 placed back into the community. 15 Q: Okay, and if you could tell us what 16 the basis for your suspension was? 17 A: Too many charges. 18 Q: And that was in the view of Chief and 19 Council? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Right. And did the OPP take a 22 position on whether there had been too many impaired -- 23 too many charges laid for impaired driving? 24 A: No, the Ontario Provincial Police 25 more or less backed up my case in that I was doing my
2061 job. 2 Q: All right. So, can you describe for 3 us those occasions that you had dealings with the OPP? 4 You've described the Glencoe Detachment as being the 5 local Detachment to which you'd report. 6 Can you describe the nature of your 7 dealings on a day-to-day basis with that -- with the OPP? 8 A: The OPP assisted us in regards to if 9 we needed back up on -- on the reserve, also assisted in 10 providing breath technicians. Also helped to coach. I 11 was one of the new officers for Chippewa Muncey and I was 12 coached by various OPP personnel out of Glencoe. 13 The working relationship between Chippewa 14 Muncey as far as one on one to myself was good. But as 15 when it come to Band Council or the Supervisor for 16 Chippewa Muncey, I was taken before a Staff Sergeant of 17 the Ontario Provincial Police in Glencoe and advised if I 18 seen any wrongdoings or anything like that, they wanted 19 me to keep notes and track of the Supervisor at Chippewa 20 Muncey as well as the Chief and Council. 21 Q: Okay. And just to clarify, the 22 supervisor at Chippewa Muncey would have been the officer 23 directly above you in the command -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- hierarchy?
2071 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you in fact provide 3 information to -- to the OPP about the activities of 4 Chief and Council on the supervisor? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: When you were at a police officer at 10 Chippewa Muncey, did you have any dealings with Les 11 Jewel? We understand he's a member of I believe Muncey. 12 A: No, I don't think -- I don't remember 13 that name. 14 Q: Russ Jewel? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Charles George and he also goes by 17 Chuck? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Isaac Doxtator, also goes by Buck 20 Doxtator? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Larry French who also goes by Dutch 23 or Dutchy? 24 A: Dutchy was one of the Council members 25 at the time.
2081 Q: Okay. And while you were at Chippewa 2 Muncey, did you have any occasion -- you've told us that 3 you policed the two (2) communities of Chippewa the 4 Thames and Muncey Delaware. 5 Did you have any occasions to provide 6 policing services on the Oneida Settlement? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And can you describe the nature of 9 those policing services? 10 A: We were called as backup assistance 11 to the Oneida police on numerous occasions. 12 Q: And was there a concern at your 13 Detachment at Chippewas's -- Chippewa Muncey about 14 warrior societies or the activity of warriors at Chippewa 15 Muncey? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You were aware at the time of or what 18 a warrior was -- warrior society? 19 A: No. I -- I just -- I -- I know the 20 guys talk a lot about the so called Longhouse people, but 21 warriors, no. 22 Q: And did you have any dealings to your 23 knowledge with members of the Longhouse in your capacity 24 as a police officer? 25 A: Yes. I can remember one particular
2091 occasion to where there was a traffic accident on the 2 Oneida Reserve. Two (2) people were killed that evening. 3 Another one was severely injured to where he was in a 4 coma for approximately ten (10) years. 5 There was approximately a hundred (100), a 6 hundred and fifty (150) people that came out and it was 7 late at night. These people were saying we should take 8 it out on the police we should blame them for this. And 9 this one particular person stepped out from the crowd. 10 He had a red bandana on his head and he 11 said, he told the person that was trying to get to the 12 crowd going, leave the police alone, let them do their 13 job, they didn't cause this. The person never said 14 anything, he walked away and there wasn't a problem after 15 that. 16 Q: And what did that bandana signify to 17 you? 18 A: I believe he was one of the Longhouse 19 members. 20 Q: You said that you stayed at Muncey -- 21 or at Chippewa Muncey until 1988? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Where did you go after that? 24 A: Kettle and Stony Point. 25 Q: And when you were appointed at Kettle
2101 and Stony Point, what was your rank? 2 A: I was a Second Class Officer. 3 Q: Did that rank change? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: When were you -- were you promoted? 6 A: Approximately six (6) to eight (8) 7 months after I got to Kettle Point, I was promoted to 8 First Class Officer. 9 Q: All right. And were you made 10 Supervisor of the Kettle and Stony Point Police Service? 11 A: Yes, I was. Approximately 1989. 12 Q: Okay. At that time how many officers 13 were on the Force? 14 A: There were three (3) of us. 15 Q: So two (2) others in addition to 16 yourself? 17 A: Excuse me, there -- there was four 18 (4). 19 Q: Four (4)? 20 A: Well, four (4) of us altogether 21 including myself. 22 Q: Okay. And did the size of that force 23 increase? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: When did it increase?
2111 A: Approximately 1992/'93 it increased 2 by three (3) officers. 3 Q: So, that would have been six (6) 4 officers and yourself for a total of seven (7)? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you continued to serve as 7 the supervisor of that Detachment? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Did your rank change from -- 10 from sergeant after -- after -- were you promoted from 11 sergeant? 12 A: Yes, after we had a seven (7) man 13 force I was promoted to Staff Sergeant. 14 Q: Okay. I also understand that in or 15 about 1992, Chief and Council at Kettle and Stony Point 16 made a resolution to appoint you Chief of Police at -- at 17 the reserve? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And how long -- just in terms of 20 years, how long did you serve as Chief of Police at 21 Kettle and Stony Point? 22 A: Approximately four (4) years. 23 Q: Okay. So, until 1996? 24 A: '97. 25 Q: '97. Thank you. Okay, it's -- it's
2121 three o'clock. This might be a good time for a break. 2 Thank you, Mr. Bressette for starting and I'll take a 3 short break. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. We'll take a break. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 3:00 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 3:15 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 18 Q: Mr. Bressette, can you describe to us 19 -- you were the supervisor and the Chief of Police at 20 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation you've indicated from 21 1992 until 1997. We understand from Constable 22 Kaczanowski that in 1997 direction or the provision of 23 policing services was taken over by the Anishnaabeg 24 Policing Service. 25 Prior to that transfer, and during your
2131 tenure at Kettle and Stony Point, can you describe the 2 arrangement that governed the provision of policing 3 services at Kettle and Stony Point? 4 A: It was the First Nations tripartite 5 policing agreement between the federal, provincial and 6 First Nation territories. 7 Q: Okay, did that agreement -- you've 8 already described a bit about the agreement you were 9 operating under at Chippewa Muncey, under the agreement 10 that you were operating under at Kettle and Stony Point, 11 was the Band a party to the agreement? 12 A: Yes, they were represented by the 13 Union of Ontario Indians. 14 Q: Okay. And was there one agreement 15 governing all the Bands represented by the Union of 16 Ontario Indians or were there separate agreements for 17 each First Nation? 18 A: There were some stand-alone 19 agreements as well as regional agreements and Kettle and 20 Stony Point was still under First Nations and contract 21 policing out of Orillia. 22 Q: Okay. And when you say First Nations 23 and contract policing, that is an OPP program? 24 A: Yes, it's run by the OPP. 25 Q: Run by them. Can you describe the
2141 role of the OPP in delivering and managing Ontario's 2 First Nations police services, in relation to Kettle and 3 Stony Point as far as you know? 4 A: The Ontario Provincial Police were 5 supposed to be like a -- they would handle the finances 6 towards policing but there were times when they'd be 7 becoming involved in day-to-day operations and also 8 various directives to First Nation -- First Nation 9 officers. 10 I'd like to -- to clarify, too, like the 11 time between Chippewa Muncey and moving to Kettle and 12 Stony Point there was a name change from special 13 constable status to First Nation constable status. 14 Q: All right. So, that was right -- 15 that took place right around the time you transferred in 16 1988? 17 A: Yeah, a little after. 18 Q: A little after. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And did you receive that rank or were 21 you appointed that -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- First Nations constable? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Prior to your being promoted to
2151 Sergeant, or were you still First Nation, termed a First 2 Nations constable? 3 A: It may -- it may have been a little 4 after. 5 Q: Okay. And so you said that in 6 operational terms, the OPP was occasionally involved in - 7 - in directing your police service at Kettle and Stony 8 Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And can you describe your -- 11 how would you characterize your relationship with the 12 local OPP Detachment? 13 A: It was -- when it came to the direct 14 policing, like backing up each other in regards to 15 occurrences, the relationship was good there, but when it 16 come to, I guess, changing of policy by Band Council, 17 there was a lot of conflicts with the Ontario Provincial 18 Police at that time. 19 Q: Okay. Did you encounter the same 20 kind -- just in general terms, did you encounter the same 21 kind of tensions that you described earlier in your role 22 at Chippewa Muncey once you went to Kettle and Stony 23 Point? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: In terms of conflicts between
2161 directives issued by Chief and Council -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and the OPP? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Can you explain a bit further, Mr. 8 Bressette, when you said that there were conflicts with 9 the OPP about the implementation of policies between -- 10 can you describe a little bit more what you mean about 11 that? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: When it came to scheduling of Kettle 16 Point officers, the OPP wanted Kettle Point officers to 17 be -- to be consistent with their schedule so there 18 wouldn't be any shortfalls or shortage of manpower, but 19 the Band Council wanted Kettle Point to develop its own 20 schedules to meet the direct needs of the community. 21 Also, in regards to reporting, there was 22 sort of a chain of command in regards to various 23 documents that would go through Forest up through 24 Chatham. 25 There was also at that time, problems
2171 encountered in regards to equipment for Kettle Point as 2 well as personnel. And there were meetings between 3 supervisors and the Superintendent for First Nations 4 Policing at -- around that time. 5 And the problems were similar across the 6 province, so the superintendent gave directive or okay 7 for First Nations supervisors to deal directly with -- 8 with First Nations Policing Bureau itself and save a lot 9 of headaches from trying to deal with local detachment 10 commanders. 11 Q: And that was in relation to the 12 provision of equipment and supplies? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And strictly in -- in terms of that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you mentioned earlier that you 17 did take direction from the OPP on some operational 18 matters, did -- did that direction come through the -- 19 which detachment or which entity did that come through? 20 A: At that time it would come from what 21 they call Number 1 District. It would be the -- the 22 Forest Detachment and also District Headquarters, which 23 would be the Chatham Detachment. 24 Q: And what type of operational 25 directives would you get from the OPP during this period?
2181 A: When it comes to -- in regards to 2 policing -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- the Ontario Provincial Police in 5 around 1989/'90 -- I -- I could be wrong on those dates, 6 a little off, but it was in regards to the Ontario 7 Provincial Police restructuring its -- its program. 8 And the Chief was invited to that meeting 9 and there was a discussion that took place in regards to 10 responding to calls outside of the reserve if the OPP 11 needed assistance; if they had a -- a shortfall of 12 manpower, would we be prepared to assist. And the Chief 13 okayed that as long as it didn't interfere with 14 responding to occurrences on the reserve. 15 That was sort of cleared up. Then we had 16 approximately three (3) different -- two (2) different 17 changes of detachment commanders when I was there and 18 there was a -- a conflict with some of those detachment 19 commanders in regards to policing Ontario highways. 20 Q: Okay. Just to take you back a little 21 bit, you say -- you said that the -- the Chief approved 22 members of your force responding to calls on Ontario 23 highways. That would be the Chief of the Band? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: The Kettle and Stony Point First
2191 Nation? Okay. And can you describe the role of the 2 policing committee during the period when you were Chief 3 of Police? 4 A: The policing committee, at that 5 particular time they hired people, they terminated 6 people's employment, they responded to community members' 7 complaints, responded to community safety issues. They 8 also took a -- a -- I guess, a leadership role over the 9 Kettle Point Police in regards to how we would police, 10 such things as those. 11 Q: And so your police service, in 12 addition to taking direction from the OPP, also took 13 direction from that Policing Committee? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now I understand that shortly 16 after you were promoted to the rank of Sergeant, John 17 Carson assumed command of the OPP Detachment here in 18 Forest A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that correct? And can you 20 describe your working relationship with -- with Officer 21 Carson? 22 A: Mr. Carson was -- he was mandated to 23 -- when he came to Forest as a commander to help resolve 24 some of the problems in Kettle and Stony Point and some 25 Members of the Ontario Provincial Police in Forest. And
2201 there was numerous Band Council meetings held with 2 members of the First Nations policing branch out of 3 Toronto and Orillia. 4 He tried -- he tried to, I guess, better 5 the relationship but at times myself as a supervisor 6 found myself being in conflict with him at times. For 7 instance, we -- the Chief and Council put in for I 8 believe it was five (5) additional officers at the time. 9 And Mr. Carson wrote a -- a letter 10 supporting maybe it would support one (1) officer. But 11 his sergeant who was under him who was a liaison at 12 Kettle Point for a couple of years which was Sergeant 13 Hudson, he backed up our proposal that we'd get 14 additional police officers and we -- in order to do a 15 longer extended periods of coverage on -- on the reserve 16 as well is -- there was conflicts with Mr. Carson in 17 regards to training, in regards to policing. 18 I remember one (1) instance where he 19 called me at my office and advised that if I didn't stop 20 charging his people, he would send his men to Kettle 21 Point and start charging my people. And I was really 22 shocked by that at the time. And I says, What do you 23 mean by that? 24 He says, Well your people are out on the 25 highway charging non-Native people. If you don't stop
2211 we're going to send -- I'm going to send my men and start 2 charging your people. And I said, John, this isn't 3 about, you know, my people or your people. I thought we 4 both, you know, wore blue, we're law enforcement 5 officers. 6 I says, When things are quiet in Kettle 7 Point, we got new people to train, we take them out on 8 the highway and train them in radar such. I says, 9 Besides, I said, Your predecessor, you know, wanted help 10 from the Kettle Point police in regards to policing some 11 of the highways around the Reserve because there was 12 shortage of manpower at the time. 13 So, you know, like that kind of threw me 14 off. There was a number of other instances with him 15 where I didn't agree and I didn't feel too happy about 16 that. 17 Q: All right. So you wouldn't 18 characterize your working relationship with -- with 19 Inspector Carson as a good relationship? 20 A: He was a staff sergeant at the time. 21 Q: Sorry, Staff Sergeant Carson. 22 A: No. 23 Q: So you wouldn't characterize it as a 24 good relationship? 25 A: No.
2221 Q: Okay. Did you ever have any 2 communication with Carson concerning the presence of OPP 3 officers at Kettle Point? On Kettle Point? 4 A: There was a protocol agreement that 5 was structured and that was, I believe it was initiated - 6 - it was developed by the Anishnaabeg Police Force, but 7 we received it from First Nations policing branch out of 8 Orillia. And the Band council adapted that -- that 9 protocol agreement between the Ontario Provincial Police 10 and Kettle Point. 11 And it was -- like, it wasn't something 12 bad, it was just something to say if the TRU Team was -- 13 came into the reserve, you know, how we went about to -- 14 to ask for their assistance, and you know, the canine 15 unit, all the speciality units that the Ontario 16 Provincial Police can provide. 17 There was various procedure to be able to 18 render their assistance. 19 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge, was 20 that agreement adhered to by the OPP? 21 A: Most of the time, but there was 22 problems with that, too. 23 Q: Okay, and if problems arose, did you 24 communicate directly with Officer Carson about -- 25 A: Yes, and also took it to the Police
2231 Commission chairman. 2 Q: Okay. Did you ever sit on council at 3 Kettle and Stony Point? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And when was that? 6 A: Approximately 1992/93. 7 Q: Okay, did you serve your full term? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay, so you resigned your position 10 as band councillor? 11 A: I think I lasted for about a year and 12 a half. 13 Q: And -- but you did resign? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And why did you resign from -- 16 from band council? 17 A: It was just too -- too much. 18 Q: Too much in terms of the amount of 19 work you had to do? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. We've heard from a number of 22 other witnesses about an incident at Kettle and Stony 23 Point First Nation involving Darryl Lee George. What can 24 you tell us about that incident? 25 A: I was contacted by Constable
2241 Kaczanowski who is a member of the Kettle Point police. 2 And he advised that Darryl Lee George assaulted a female 3 on the reserve and also that he was -- made threats in 4 regards to the police attempted to arrest him. 5 I was off duty. I placed myself on duty. 6 I contacted or Darryl Lee George contacted our office and 7 I had some conversation with him over the telephone and 8 he said, If you send any of your men to my residence, 9 I'll drop them at the doorstep. I got a AK-47, and 10 continued on with various other threats. 11 From there I contacted Mark Wright who was 12 with the Lambton County crime unit. He in turn contacted 13 the TRU Team and various -- his various other supervisors 14 above him. 15 He called me back and advised that I 16 should let members of the police committee know, as well 17 as band council that if the TRU Team comes in that we 18 have no say in how they handle the situation; that 19 they're more or less -- they don't take any direction 20 from anybody. They have their own system set up and they 21 would handle things the way they seen fit. 22 So that occurred. We attended the Forest 23 Detachment and there was approximately a hundred (100) 24 officers. I remember coming from Kettle Point -- coming 25 from Forest to Kettle Point. There was lights as far as
2251 you can see from Kettle Point curve back towards Forest. 2 Prior to that, I assisted the -- the TRU 3 Team in surveillance. One (1) of the residents of Kettle 4 Point allowed us to enter their residence and put 5 surveillance on where Gerald Lee George was at. 6 After completing that, the numerous 7 residents were evacuated from the area. And it got to be 8 the daylight hours, where were a lot of roads were cutoff 9 because of the emergency response was in the area. The 10 school was shut down, the Band office was shut down, the 11 TRU Team set up a command centre at the -- at a adult 12 education school approximately three (3), a couple of 13 kilometres from where Darryl Lee George was. 14 And I went into the communication centre 15 some time in the morning and I was approached by Mark 16 Wright. He asked if I could do something in regards to 17 the situation. He said I believe it was Inspector Linton 18 who was Command Post Commander at that particular time. 19 He said this man's losing control of the 20 situation, he's not a field officer, he's an 21 administration officer. Is there something you can do 22 since you're the chief of police here? You can go beyond 23 our boundaries and -- and -- could you do something? 24 Could you go over to the -- to the site and see what you 25 can do?
2261 So from there I left and I went over to 2 the -- to the scene to where there was a lot of people 3 barricaded off approximately half -- maybe three tenths 4 (3/10) of a kilometre from where Darryl Lee George was 5 barricaded in. And Darryl's brother came up to advising 6 that Darryl didn't have any weapons, he was just saying 7 that and that there was nobody else in the residence 8 other than Darryl Lee. 9 And I looked across, I could see Darryl 10 Lee with his hands out the window asking for us to come 11 over. I asked his brothers two (2) or three (3) times, 12 are you sure there was no weapons in the residence? Are 13 you sure there was nobody else in the residence? 14 And he assured me. I kind of took my -- 15 my own life into my own hands and rode slowly up in front 16 of the residence and followed the tree line. Darryl was 17 still at the window with his hands out. I said, I 18 advised the communication centre that he was giving 19 himself up. I told him to come through the window. He 20 says, no, I'm not coming through the window, I'll come 21 through the door. 22 So I advised the communication people that 23 he was going to come through the door, I told him to hold 24 his hands out through the door first and which he did. 25 And -- and that was settled without incident.
2271 Q: And just to take you back a little 2 bit. You mentioned that when you contacted Mark Wright 3 and he advised you to contact the policing committee and 4 have some conversations with them -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- about -- did you in fact contact 7 the members of the policing committee? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And what was the nature of 10 those conversations? 11 A: I contacted Al Bressette, Police 12 Commission chairperson and advised him the situation and 13 what was going to take place and he said he didn't have 14 any problem with it. I believe we tried to contact the 15 chief, Tom Bressette. I'm not sure whether we did or 16 not, I can't remember to this date whether we contacted 17 and spoke to him or not. 18 Q: And did you seek the authorization of 19 Mr. Bressette as a member of the policing committee to 20 give the go ahead to the TRU Team to enter -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- the Reserve? You didn't feel that 23 you could -- could do that without consulting with the 24 policing committee? 25 A: Well, I could.
2281 Q: But you chose to also -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you described some comments by 4 Mr. Wright to the affect that the situation was out of 5 control. Did he say what he meant by that? Did he give 6 you any details? 7 A: I don't -- I don't remember saying 8 that. 9 Q: Or it was getting out of control I 10 believe you said. 11 A: Well he just -- he just advised me 12 that if the TRU Team came down -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- we would have -- we, the Kettle 15 Point Band Council or the police would have no control 16 over the -- what the TRU Team did. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: They have their own system and they 19 do things the way they see fit. 20 Q: Okay. I was referring to the 21 conversation that you had with him later, once he 22 arrived. 23 A: Oh, okay. 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Sorry.
2291 Q: That's all right. 2 A: That was in regards to the command 3 post commander which was Inspector Linton. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Mark Wright was receiving radio calls 6 from TRU Team members that were around the residence and 7 they were advising that people were on skidoos riding 8 around on the front lawn and Mr. -- Inspector Linton was 9 trying to order the TRU Team members to go out and 10 apprehend those people on the skidoos and yet you have a 11 person alleged to have an AK-47 inside the residence. 12 That's what he was referring to. 13 Q: Okay. Did you tell you that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And then you described what 16 you did in response to those -- that request -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- by Mr. Wright. Were you 19 accompanied by any of the officers when you approached 20 Mr. George's house? 21 A: Yes, by Constable John Peltier. 22 Q: And were you aware of any involvement 23 in that incident or in the resolution of that incident by 24 Cecil Bernard George? 25 A: No.
2301 Q: No. Did you see him in the area? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And did you ever have any 4 conversations with any members of the OPP about that 5 incident after it occurred? 6 A: We attended the Forest OPP Detachment 7 preparing Darryl. I think we transferred him later to a 8 Sarnia -- to Sarnia County Jail, but I was met by TRU 9 Team members at the Forest Detachment. 10 They had the look of relief upon their 11 faces, patting me on the back, stating that they were 12 very thankful for what we done, that they felt they were 13 going to have to get into something and they didn't want 14 to get into anything. And they seemed very relieved that 15 the whole situation went without incident. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: It also was told to me that there was 18 people in another room that were having some sort of 19 briefing meeting that I was never invited to, that they 20 would not be happy with my actions. 21 Q: That was told to you by members of 22 the TRU Team? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And who were those -- who did you 25 understand the people in the other room to be?
2311 A: Inspectors. 2 Q: Or higher ranking officers? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you ever have any 5 conversations with Inspector Coles -- Chief 6 Superintendent Coles, I'm sorry, about that -- that 7 incident? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. To take you back a little bit 10 in time, in 1990, did you attend the burial of Dan George 11 at Stoney Point? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you do that in your personal 14 capacity or as a police officer? 15 A: Personal capacity. 16 Q: Okay. And we understand that members 17 of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation went into the Army 18 Camp -- Camp Ipperwash -- and occupied some land there on 19 May 6th of 1993. Prior to that date, what was your -- 20 were you aware of any other activities at Camp Ipperwash 21 by members of Kettle and Stony Point in relation to land 22 issues or arising out of land issues there? 23 A: There was -- there was ongoing 24 demonstrations, talks, probably since the 70s that I can 25 remember.
2321 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you ever 2 take part in any of those demonstrations? 3 A: I attended, I believe it was 1990, 4 '91, I'm not sure, '92. here was a document served upon 5 the Department of National Defence and I was a Band 6 councillor at Kettle Point at the time and Norman 7 Shawnoo, he was another councillor, we were designated by 8 the Band Council to go and just act as observers on this 9 particular day when this document would be served on the 10 Department of National Defence. 11 I attended at the main gate of the Camp 12 Ipperwash and it was probably, eighty (80), ninety (90), 13 a hundred (100) people there. A lot of -- a lot of news 14 people and that's the extent that I was involved in that. 15 Q: Okay. And so you observed what was 16 going on? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you report it back to the 19 Chief -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- and Council at Kettle Point? 22 That was prior to the occupation -- prior to people 23 actually going into occupy the Camp lands? 24 A: Some of them may have already been 25 in there, I think they were already in. I'm not sure.
2331 Q: Okay. We do understand that this 2 was a long time ago -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and it's difficult. Did you 5 discuss any of these activities by band members at Camp 6 Ipperwash with any members of the OPP? 7 A: Oh, yes, I probably did. 8 Q: And can you recall the nature of 9 those conversations? This is prior to May 6th, of 1993. 10 A: Just what we knew, what we learned. 11 I believe even before that weekend can -- we may have 12 been in there or shortly after there. I remember there 13 was a large meeting right inside the camp in the -- what 14 they call the parade building; it's a large building in 15 the middle of the -- the built up area of the camp. 16 And I remember there was -- must have 17 been a couple of hundred people in that building at one 18 time. I can't remember what that was all about, but it 19 might have been in regards to negotiations with the 20 Government and how things were going and stuff, but 21 there was a lot of media there, also. 22 Q: Okay. And those were band members-- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- that attended that meeting. And 25 were you aware of any -- any communications with the
2341 military, with the Department of National Defence 2 regarding people's access to -- this is prior to people 3 going into the camp on May 6th of 1993, about people 4 going in to attend that meeting, for example? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I know there was some sort of an 9 early protest or -- I can't remember how long it went 10 on, but I think they would let some of the individuals 11 into the military camp on certain dates and on this one 12 particular date we heard that the people were preparing 13 to stay, they weren't going to leave. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And I believe that's when they first 16 took occupation of the -- of the base. 17 Q: Okay. And did that occupation -- 18 that wasn't the occupation of May 6th of 1993? 19 A: I'm not sure. 20 Q: Okay. Again, it's very 21 understandable if events are a little bit difficult to - 22 - to separate out, thirteen (13) years later. 23 Okay. Taking you now to 1993, May of 24 1993, when we've heard from many other witnesses and 25 it's a matter of little controversy that people did go
2351 into the Army camp on May 6th of 1993. 2 In the weeks immediately prior to that, 3 were you aware that people were planning to enter into 4 the Army camp? 5 A: I'm sure we were. I can't remember 6 how we learned it, but I think it was just general talk 7 in the community at the time that people knew, you 8 know -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- weeks before they were going to 11 do this. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: There was a lot of talk. 14 Q: And when did you learn that people 15 had, in fact, gone into the camp? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I can't -- I can't say 100 percent, 20 specifically. It must have been the date that you're 21 describing; I don't remember. At the time it wasn't a 22 real issue with Kettle Point police. We looked at it as 23 being under the Department of National Defence and the 24 Ontario Provincial Police if they call for our 25 assistance we would have assisted them, but I don't
2361 remember it being a really big issue at the time. 2 Q: With the OPP? 3 A: Well, a concern with -- with anybody 4 really. 5 Q: So it was your impression that it 6 wasn't a large concern with the Department of National 7 Defence? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And so it's your -- your 10 recollection that you learned the same day that people 11 had gone into the camp? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you at the time know why 14 people would have entered into the army camp to occupy 15 the lands? 16 A: Well, through years of frustration 17 of trying to negotiate for the return of Camp Ipperwash 18 to its rightful owners, it's easy to understand. 19 Q: And you mentioned that -- that you 20 were aware of activities, demonstrations, talks, 21 concerning Stoney Point and the -- and Camp Ipperwash 22 going back in to the 70's. 23 Going that far back had you heard any 24 talk about taking over the camp in the 70's? 25 A: I remember -- I'm not sure whether
2371 he's Chief or not but -- yeah, he was Chief, Charles 2 Shawkense Sr. around in the early 70's he used to come 3 on the high school bus in Forest and tell a lot of the 4 young people that if anybody was contemplating on going 5 into the military camp or causing problems, they are not 6 to do it because they would hinder negotiations with the 7 government. 8 And at that particular time I wasn't 9 aware of anybody -- any young people as well as myself 10 as going -- even thinking about going to the military 11 camp. 12 Q: Were you aware of any older people 13 talking about making that move? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. I'm going to take you now to 16 August of 1993. We've heard from many other witnesses 17 about an allegation involving a helicopter shooting at 18 the army camp. 19 Can you tell us about your knowledge of 20 that incident? 21 A: I received a call from Staff 22 Sergeant Carson approximately 1:00, 1:30 or later or 23 earlier in the morning, one morning. He advised that a 24 helicopter has been shot at in the military base and 25 asked if we would go down to assist to help identify
2381 various individuals. 2 I advised him that I would have to 3 contact the Chief of Kettle and Stony Point to find out 4 what his position would be on this. I contacted Chief 5 Tom Bressette. I understand from a later conversation 6 with him that he did contact Staff Sergeant Carson and 7 had discussion in regards to Kettle Point getting 8 involved. 9 Chief Tom Bressette called me back and 10 advised that Kettle Point Police would not be involved 11 in that situation. 12 Q: Okay. And were you aware at that 13 time that -- we heard from Constable Wallace Kaczanowski 14 this morning the he, in fact, did attend at a checkpoint 15 in the area as a result of that allegation. 16 Were you aware that he had done so? 17 A: I may have been I can't -- I can't 18 recall. 19 Q: And he also mentioned that he was 20 accompanied by a Constable Jerome Bressette. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Does that -- 23 A: No, it doesn't. 24 Q: Do you recall that? 25 A: I don't recall that.
2391 Q: Okay. Do you recall any of the 2 circumstances surrounding those officers leaving that 3 checkpoint? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you ever visit any of the people 6 who were occupying the camp during the 19 -- the period 7 of 1993 to the summer of 1995 in a personal capacity? 8 A: I think I may have been in there a 9 couple of times. 10 Q: And would that have been to visit 11 relatives or -- 12 A: No. Just to get a general 13 understanding of what -- what was happening and what was 14 going on and just trying to keep an open communication 15 with the people in the camp. 16 Q: Okay. So it sounds -- it sounds 17 from your comments like you were also there in a 18 professional capacity? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And were your efforts in that 21 regard, were they successful? Was there communication 22 established with the people at the Army camp in your 23 view? 24 A: Well, I've never had any problems 25 speaking with the individuals within the camp.
2401 Q: Okay. 2 A: Even to this date. 3 Q: Okay. And during that period and 4 during those visits, were you well received -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- at the camp? Okay. And did you 7 engage in any policing activities at Camp Ipperwash 8 during the period? I'm talking about the period prior 9 to the occupiers entering into the built up area which 10 we understand took place on July 29th, 1995. 11 So, prior to that, did you engage in any 12 policing activities of the occupiers -- the policing of 13 the occupiers in the Army camp? 14 A: I'm not sure whether it was before 15 or after, but after September 6th that we chased a 16 stolen vehicle into the military camp. 17 And I believe we -- we took the vehicle 18 out. 19 Q: Okay. But you can't recall -- 20 A: I can't recall -- 21 Q: -- when that occurred? 22 A: -- whether it was before or after. 23 Q: All right. And did you have any 24 conversations with the people occupying the camp about 25 that --
2411 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- about entering? And what were 3 the nature of those conversations? 4 A: Well, just a general investigation 5 on do you know who was driving the vehicle? Do you know 6 how it got here? 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: And no, we don't know. 9 Q: Okay. And did they object to your 10 presence -- 11 A: Not really, we just went and got the 12 vehicle and left. 13 Q: Okay. Did you view yourself -- did 14 you receive any complaints about activities that were -- 15 I mean official police complaints about activities at 16 the Army camp by band members or other aboriginal people 17 occupying? 18 A: No, not -- there may have been, I 19 can't -- I can't remember. I know there was complaints 20 from the cottagers about vehicles riding up and down 21 Army Camp Road at high rates of speed. 22 And we also got complaints that people -- 23 non-native people entering into the military camp and 24 there was complaints on both sides, I think. 25 Q: Okay. So the complaints were -- the
2421 -- the latter complaints that you just described about 2 non-native people entering into the Army camp, they were 3 -- were they going in as supporters of the occupiers of 4 the camp? 5 A: No, I don't know what they were 6 doing. 7 Q: Okay, but you did receive complaints 8 and -- 9 A: Well, some of the people in the camp 10 were concerned because it was possible, you know, 11 unexploded ordinances there and I guess they were trying 12 to keep people out just like the Department of National 13 Defence was, for their own safety. 14 Q: Okay. So you would have received 15 those complaints from the occupiers of the camp? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And as a result of those 18 complaints, either from the occupiers or from the 19 cottagers that you described, did you -- did you have 20 any -- did you conduct investigations as a result of 21 those complaints? 22 A: As much as we could, like, at -- at 23 the particular time, I believe the Ontario Provincial 24 Police was mandated to -- to police in and around the 25 military camp as well as the Department of National
2431 Defence. 2 Q: So, in effect -- 3 A: So we didn't -- 4 Q: -- there would have been -- 5 A: -- really -- we didn't get really 6 deeply involved. 7 Q: In effect, you would have been the 8 third of three (3) layers of police -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- potentially -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- with policing that area. Did you 13 view yourself as having jurisdiction to police that 14 area? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Were there any protocols concerning 17 the policing of the occupiers at Camp Ipperwash that you 18 had, either with Chief and Council at Stoney Point, the 19 policing committee or with the OPP that applied to your 20 police service? 21 A: I believe there was a kind of 22 unwritten -- unwritten protocol that if they called us 23 and needed us to go in for whatever reason, we would do 24 it and I know later on after September 6th, there was 25 negotiations to try and set up a protocol agreement
2441 between the -- 2 Q: And we'll -- we'll come to that. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Yeah, thank you. Were you aware of 5 Kettle Point -- Kettle and Stony Point First Nation 6 Chief and Council's position with respect to the 7 occupation of Camp Ipperwash? 8 A: They didn't support it. 9 Q: How did you know that? 10 A: I visited with Chief Tom Bressette a 11 number of occasions and was privy, I guess, to his phone 12 calls to the Department of National Defence or various 13 members of the Federal Government advising them that if 14 they didn't have these people removed out of Camp 15 Ipperwash that he would not sign any agreements or enter 16 into any negotiations with anybody until these people 17 were moved out of Camp Ipperwash. 18 Q: Did Chief Bressette ever communicate 19 to you directly about his views? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Was -- and was he against or did he 22 support the occupation? When he was communicating, what 23 were his views? 24 A: Well, he went on the lines of Chief 25 Shawkense where he wanted to negotiate for the return of
2451 Camp Ipperwash, I guess using the -- the normal 2 negotiating policies in regards to whether they were 3 going to go before the courts or continue to have talks 4 with people in the -- in the Government. 5 And he felt that the people within the 6 Camp were making things more difficult to be able to 7 negotiate with the Government and it just putting 8 hardship, I guess, is how he looked at things on the 9 whole negotiating policy. 10 Q: All right. I'm taking you now, to 11 the summer of 1995. We understand that on July 29th of 12 1995, people occupying Camp Ipperwash moved into the 13 built-up area and military personnel departed shortly 14 thereafter. 15 Were you aware that this had occurred? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. How long after it occurred 18 did you learn that? 19 A: Probably a day or two (2) after, 20 maybe the same time, I believe there was a report sent 21 down by the OPP on what had occurred; they'd keep us 22 updated on what had occurred within the military Camp. 23 They were advised by the military personnel. 24 Q: And were you involved in any 25 policing activities surrounding that development?
2461 A: No. 2 Q: Did you entertain requests? Did the 3 -- did the OPP make any requests of you for information 4 concerning that development? 5 A: They may have. Like anything that 6 we hear within the community or from other people in 7 regards to gathering intelligence information, we'd pass 8 it on to them, but there wasn't -- there wasn't very 9 much that we knew. 10 Q: Were you aware prior to -- to that 11 move into the built-up area that it was -- that it was 12 going to take place? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Moving now to September of 15 1995, during the first week of September 1995, so, we've 16 heard that people moved into Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 on September 4th, in the time immediately preceding that 18 or during the occupation of the -- of the Park September 19 4th through 6th, did you receive any complaints about 20 gunshots in the area of Camp Ipperwash or Ipperwash 21 Provincial Park? 22 A: We may have. I can't remember, I 23 can't recall. 24 Q: Okay. Did you receive any reports 25 of automatic gunfire from those areas?
2471 A: I think if we received reports of 2 automatic gunfire, I would remember that and I can't 3 remember it. 4 Q: Okay. And late in the summer of 5 1995, I understand that you heard a radio interview 6 involving Robert George. 7 Can you describe that interview? 8 A: I believe it was over CHOK a day or 9 a day before September 6th or the day. But it was in 10 regards to sort of like a warning by Mr. George 11 receiving information from some of the younger people in 12 Ipperwash advising that they were frustrating and if 13 things continued on as they were there could be 14 bloodshed. 15 Q: Did you understand them to be 16 advocating violence? 17 A: I don't think so. I think he was 18 trying to warn the people that people were frustrated 19 and there could be problems. 20 Q: And in the weeks immediately prior 21 to the occupation of the Park do you recall observing 22 anything else of significance that you feel you should 23 share with us in the area? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Were you aware of any communication
2481 between Kettle and Stony Point Chief and Council and the 2 OPP around that time concerning the situation at Camp 3 Ipperwash? 4 A: I may have been but I -- I'm not 5 sure. I do remember some individuals that were trying 6 to have a meeting with Chief Tom Bressette prior to 7 September 6th. And I believe one of those individuals 8 were Bob Antone from the Oneida First Nation. 9 Q: Okay. So -- and he would have been 10 trying to arrange a meeting to speak to Chief Bressette. 11 Was he speaking on anyone's behalf, or 12 what would have been the purpose of that meeting? 13 A: Well, I believe people could start 14 to feel the tension in the area that something was going 15 to happen. I'm not sure whether people within Camp 16 Ipperwash communicated to him there could be problems 17 but I don't know why he was there. 18 I understood he wanted to speak with the 19 Chief, to try to start talks with people that were going 20 to go into the camp because I believe it was two (2) 21 weeks prior to September 4th that the guys advised the 22 Ontario Provincial Police and Kettle Point police and 23 maybe even the Band Council that they were going to go 24 into the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 25 And it didn't seem to be an issue with
2491 the Ontario Provincial Police. I remember talking to 2 some members and they looked at it as a political 3 situation that they wouldn't have to really deal with. 4 Then a lot of pressure start coming on by I guess the 5 cottagers and members of the government. 6 Q: And we'll be hearing directly from 7 members of the OPP about what was going on at that time. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you recall which police officers 12 you spoke to? 13 A: I believe it was George Speck. 14 Q: Okay. And anyone else that you can 15 recall? 16 A: There may have been others. I can't 17 remember. 18 Q: Okay. Did you receive any direction 19 from Kettle and Stony Point Chief and Council or the 20 Policing Committee about information -- how to deal with 21 information that people were planning to occupy the 22 Park? 23 Were you told to do anything about that? 24 A: No, I can't remember any specific 25 directives from the Chief and Council on that. I do
2501 know that the Chief was pretty upset that people down in 2 Ipperwash were taking that position. 3 Q: And how did you know the Chief was 4 upset? 5 A: I spoke to him directly. 6 Q: Okay. But neither he nor anyone 7 else with the band told you to do anything about it as a 8 police officer, as Chief of Police? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Prior to the occupation of 11 the Park, did you have any knowledge or information 12 concerning the presence of burial grounds within the 13 Park? 14 A: I know -- I know the -- that there 15 were rumours of various burial grounds in the Ipperwash 16 Park, but to actually have it confirmed by some of the 17 Elders, I remember speaking to one Elder that I thought 18 he would know for sure whether there were burial 19 grounds, and to his knowledge, he didn't remember there 20 being any. 21 Q: And at the time, did you consider the 22 Park to be part of the lands regarded as the former 23 Stoney Point reserve? 24 A: Yes. 25
2511 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Which Elder did you speak to about - 4 - about the presence of burial grounds in the Park? 5 A: Earl Bressette. 6 Q: Earl Bressette, thank you. And did 7 you speak to any other Elders about this issue? 8 A: I may have, I can't remember who 9 though. 10 Q: Okay. Were you ever consulted by 11 the OPP about the occupation of the Park prior to it 12 actually occurring on September 4th? 13 A: Yes, like I say, I believe we may 14 have received the initial report from them that these 15 guys were notifying everybody that they were going to go 16 into the Park and take it over after the Park closed. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: Which they did. 19 Q: So you received reports from the 20 OPP -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: But did they -- did they seek your - 23 - your advice or any information from you? 24 A: No, at the time, like I say, from 25 what I can remember to this date, it wasn't a concern
2521 with them at the time. 2 Q: Okay. When did you learn that 3 people had indeed moved into the Park? 4 A: The particular night they moved in I 5 drove by and -- in an unmarked police cruiser and I 6 observed them standing at the gate. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I didn't see them go in, but I seen 9 a bunch of them standing at the gate. 10 Q: Okay. And were you on duty at the 11 time? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay, and did you go down there 14 because you had heard -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- that people had gone into the 17 Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall who you heard 20 that from? 21 A: Well, we were given a date and time 22 when -- when these people would be going in and after 23 the Park closed that particular day, that's -- that 24 evening they went into the Park. 25 Q: And were you -- so you were on duty
2531 on September 4th. Do you recall what shift you were on 2 or what your schedule was that day? 3 A: I would have been on the night 4 shift. 5 Q: Okay. Did anything else of 6 significance happen that you can recall? Recognizing, 7 of course, that you are without your notebooks which 8 puts you at a disadvantage in terms of remembering that. 9 A: No, I can't remember anything. 10 Q: Okay. And were you on duty on 11 September 5th, the following day? 12 A: I may have been on -- on day shift. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But I can't remember anything about 15 that particular day, either. 16 Q: And did you observe any police check 17 points in the area of Camp Ipperwash and Kettle and 18 Stony Point First Nation at the -- during the occupation 19 of the Park? 20 A: I'm not sure when it -- when it 21 started really to build up. I don't know if it was 22 around September 6th, 7th -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- to where there was a check points 25 at various intersections in and around the Military
2541 Camp. 2 Q: Okay. This would have been -- this 3 would have been prior to the shooting death of Dudley 4 George? 5 A: I -- I believe it was. 6 Q: Okay. Were you stopped at these 7 checkpoints yourself? 8 A: No, they recognized us and just 9 waved and kept on going. 10 Q: And did you -- were you aware of any 11 reason for the increased police presence or the presence 12 of checkpoints, I'm sorry, in the area? 13 A: No, I -- I couldn't figure that out 14 why there was an increase of manpower in the area. 15 Q: So, you did note an increase of 16 police -- the number of police officers in the area? 17 A: Yeah, it was starting to build up. 18 Q: Okay. When did you first observe a 19 noticeable increase? 20 A: I think around the 7th -- 6th/7th of 21 -- it may even have been the 5th, I'm not too sure, but 22 I was in and around the area for a couple of days before 23 Dudley got shot, so it must have been around the 5th. I 24 got faint memory of that. 25 Q: And were you aware of the reason for
2551 the increased police presence? 2 A: No. 3 Q: By police I mean OPP as opposed to 4 your police service. 5 A: No, no. 6 Q: Did you have any conversations with 7 Mr. Carson about it? 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: We may have, I'm not sure. 11 Q: Okay. Did you contact any -- any 12 member of the OPP to ask for an explanation as to the 13 increased number of police in the area or OPP officers 14 in the area? 15 A: At that particular time we had a 16 liaison officer from Forest Detachment and he was 17 usually in and out of the office on -- on a daily basis 18 and no doubt we had some conversation, but it was 19 probably -- like, I don't -- I don't remember any direct 20 conversation with anybody in regards to bringing a lot 21 of people into the area to ... 22 I believe around that particular time 23 there was talking about delivering some sort of document 24 from the courts ordering the people out of the Camp. 25 I'm not sure whether they dropped that by helicopter or
2561 what. 2 Q: Do you recall who you got 3 information about that from or who was talking about it? 4 A: It may have been Sergeant Hudson who 5 was the liaison officer at the time. 6 Q: All right. And you indicated 7 earlier that he was in and out of the office every day. 8 Did you mean the office at Kettle Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: The police detachment office? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. So, during that period 13 he would have been in and out of the office on a daily 14 basis -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- as far as you recall? 17 A: Yes. 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. Commissioner, 19 I am about to enter into a whole other area and I have a 20 fair amount of material yet to cover, I'm wondering if 21 this might be a good time. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: If you like, I 24 can continue. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's close
2571 enough to 4:30. 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, we 4 were going to adjourn at 4:30. Do you think this would 5 be a good time? 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 8 want to go into a new area? We've had a long day, so I 9 think we can adjourn now. We're starting at nine 10 o'clock in the morning, that makes it a long day, so 11 we'll adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 15 okay, Mr. -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 18 Bressette. 19 20 (WITNESS RETIRES) 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 23 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, February 24th at 24 9:00 a.m. 25
2581 --- Upon adjourning at 4:22 p.m. 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 9 ________________________ 10 Carol Geehan 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25