11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 22nd, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Michelle Pong ) (np) 7 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 8 9 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 10 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 11 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 12 13 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 14 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 15 Jennifer McAleer ) 16 17 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 18 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 19 20 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 21 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 Mark Anthony Wright, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 10 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 269 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1098 Transcript of Mobile Command Unit 4 Logger tape number 1, track 1, disc 5 1 of 3. Mark Wright and Inspector Ed 6 Robertson, 10:42 hours. Sept. 05/'95. 104 7 P-1099 Transcript of Mobile Command Unit 8 Logger Tape number 1, track 1, disc 9 1 of 3, Mark Wright and Inspector Ed 10 Robertson, 11:10 hours. Sept. 05/'95. 127 11 P-1100 Transcript of Chatham Communication 12 Centre Logger tape number 0143, track 13 12, disc 12 of 20 , Mark Wright and 14 LIMA 2, 12:49 hrs., Sept. 05/'95. 144 15 P-1101 Transcript of Chatham Communication 16 Centre Logger tape number 0143, track 17 12, disc 12 of 20, Mark Wright and 18 LIMA 1, 13:20 hrs. Sept. 05/'95. 147 19 P-1102: Document Number 2001840. Sarnia 20 Observer article, Stoney Pointers 21 Sympathetic with Park Occupiers, 22 Sept. 06/'95 155 23 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1103 Transcript of Chatham Communication 4 Centre Logger tape number 143, track 5 12, disc 12 of 20, Mark Wright and 6 LIMA 1, 13:40 hrs. Sept. 05/'95. 158 7 P-1104 Document number 1009634. London Free 8 Press article, Leaderless Natives 9 Stay Mum, September 07/'95. 257 10 P-1105 Transcript of Chatham Communication 11 Centre Logger tape number 0146, track 12 12, disc 12 of 20, Mark Wright, Command 13 Post, Sgt. Korosec, 17:39, Sept. 06/'95 253 14 P-1106 Transcript of Track number 1820, Sept. 15 06/'95. 18:20 hours. 266 16 P-1107 Transcript of Track number 1925. 17 19:25 hours 267 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
101 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning, Mr. Millar. Good morning, 10 everybody. 11 12 MARK ANTHONY WRIGHT, Resumed 13 14 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Yesterday when we finished off, 16 Inspector Wright, we were looking at Exhibit P-426 which 17 is the scribe notes. And we were looking at an entry at 18 21:45 hours and we were discussing the issue of the 19 trespass notice. And there's a note we -- I'd asked you 20 about Peter and there's a note at 21:52: 21 "Don Matheson arrived." 22 And Don Matheson was with MNR; is that -- 23 is that your understanding? 24 A: That's my recollection, yes. 25 Q: And had you met Mr. Matheson prior to
111 September 4th? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. And then there's a note: 4 "Les Kobayashi called Peter Sturdy and 5 advised him of the situation." 6 And then there's a note at 21:56: 7 "John Carson distributing Project Maple 8 books." 9 And I take it that you received a copy of 10 Project Maple at that time or when he distributed the 11 books? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And if I could take you over to the 14 entry on page 4 at 22:18. There's an entry: 15 "Inspector Ron Fox called by John 16 Carson." 17 And then an entry: 18 "Mark Wright advised John Carson of 19 cruiser sheets and the sergeants are to 20 call back if problems are encountered. 21 P.C. Zacher and other ERT members feel 22 comfortable to take kiosk, is possible 23 as it's only occupied by one (1) 24 person, Judas George. John Carson 25 indicated let's be careful if, as they
121 are possibly intoxicated and both Mark 2 Wright and John Carson agreed that 3 public safety is number one and we need 4 to patrol the area." 5 Do you have any recollection of this 6 discussion about taking -- to take the kiosks? 7 A: Very little. 8 Q: Can you tell us what if anything, you 9 recall was being discussed at this point? 10 A: Well, I -- I can tell you that what I 11 meant by that or the theme of that is that we were still 12 looking at the possibility of staying in the Park and 13 cohabiting the Park, so returning into the Park with 14 officers. 15 With respect to taking the kiosk we would 16 have to go by the kiosk in order to get to the bridge in 17 order to repopulate that portion of the Park that 18 Inspector Carson eluded to earlier when Korosec felt he 19 had to remove his people from there. 20 Q: And the -- the -- it says kiosks, 21 plural, but there was the kiosk that's being referred to 22 at this point is the kiosk at the main entrance? 23 A: Right. And of course we would know 24 at this time from Korosec I believe that there had been 25 damage to the cruiser, one (1) of Korosec's cruisers. So
131 we would have -- and as I recall the person responsible 2 for that was Mr. George, Mr. Judas George, and I -- I 3 don't know his given name but -- so I apologize for that. 4 But in any event, so we would have grounds 5 in my view to arrest Mr. George with respect to the 6 damage to the cruiser as well because my recollection is 7 later on we get warrants for that -- those particular -- 8 for that particular reason so grounds would exist to 9 effect an arrest on Mr. George. 10 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to Tab 11 15 of the Commission binder which is the one (1) on your 12 left; that one there. It's right to your left. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the bridge that your -- this is a 18 copy of Exhibit P-422 as marked by John Carson as well 19 it's a -- the Base map is P-40. It's the Provincial Park 20 and the CFB Ipperwash. 21 And the bridge that you're talking about 22 is just below the -- Mr. Carson indicated the location of 23 the pumphouse and it's immediately to the west of the 24 pumphouse, just to the west of the black line running 25 from Matheson Drive up to the road that runs east and
141 west in the -- in the Park; is that correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And so at this point in time there 4 was still a discussion as to whether or not you could go 5 back into the Park or at least go in -- go into the Park 6 as far as the bridge? 7 A: Yes, because -- if I could just have 8 a moment. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I -- I know at some point Carson and 13 I talk about -- and it's in the logs here but it escapes 14 me where we talk about well, the plan -- the plan that we 15 had is not longer going to be appropriate because we're 16 now out of the Park. 17 So at some point I believe that's after 18 this, so at -- we're still discussing that and -- and the 19 next morning, and I'm sure we'll get to that -- 20 Q: We will. 21 A: -- there's a discussion I believe at 22 about, I think it's 09:35 hours, at a meeting that I 23 attended that we discuss or Inspector Carson leads the 24 discussion with regards to the potentiality of 25 repopulating the Park with ERT officers.
151 Q: Okay. Now, at page 5 there's a brief 2 entry: 3 "John Carson advised Mark Wright to 4 make a meeting room in the garage." 5 That's at 22:32. And that was -- you did 6 create a meeting room in the garage? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that -- you used that for 9 briefing officers who were coming in off their shifts? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And for other meetings? 12 A: Primarily -- 13 Q: Most -- 14 A: Primarily the officers, yes. There 15 was -- my recollection there was a picnic table and 16 there were some drinks and some food for the officers 17 coming in and off shift. 18 Q: Okay. And then at the bottom of page 19 5 the entry 22:38: 20 "Mark Wright indicated he spoke to 21 Vince George. He agreed and felt 22 comfortable being the first one in with 23 Les Kobayashi to serve the papers." 24 And did you speak directly to Mr. George - 25 - Constable George?
161 A: It would appear that I did. 2 Q: Do you have any recollection of the 3 conversation? 4 A: No, I don't. I know we were 5 concerned about using the George officers and Vince 6 helped a great deal because of the -- of the -- the 7 difficult situation that that would put them in. So we 8 were -- from a personal point of view I -- view I was 9 very grateful to Vince in particular for his assistance 10 there. 11 Q: And the personal point of view is the 12 -- what you discussed yesterday, the -- that he lived at 13 Kettle and Stony Point and then many members of his 14 family that were at Kettle and Stony Point and in the 15 Army Camp. 16 A: Yes, it was a -- 17 Q: Extended -- 18 A: -- very difficult situation for him 19 and his brother and a number of other First Nations OPP 20 officers that were working with us. 21 Q: And on page 6, there's an entry, 22 22:45 hours, where Stan Korosec's talking to John Carson 23 and then there's a reference to you in 22:46. 24 Were you part of this discussion that -- 25 with John Carson and Sergeant Korosec, do you recall?
171 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I recall that this is exactly what we 5 were going to do that -- I recall the planning of getting 6 Vince and Mr. Kobayashi together and -- and the service 7 and I was aware of -- of what took place with Stan and 8 his people and -- and with -- and that exchange. 9 So, I don't know if I was aware of it 10 because of this particular conversation but we were all 11 within a very close quarters at that time, so I don't 12 know if that helps you. 13 I was certainly aware of what was going on 14 if it -- but as a result of this particular exchange, I'm 15 not sure. 16 Q: So, when Vince George went in along 17 with Mr. Kobayashi, they were going to go up to the 18 kiosk. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At -- at the main gate -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: -- through the main gate to the Park 23 and there were going to be some ERT members of the OPP 24 that would be available to assist them, if necessary? 25 A: Right.
181 Q: And that did not become necessary. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And there -- there's a note that Stan 4 Korosec reported that when they first arrived, the Park 5 wasn't closed, Glen showed up, threatening that they were 6 going to take Ravenswood next. 7 And were you -- do you recall Sergeant 8 Korosec advising John Carson of this? 9 A: About the Ravenswood -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- episode? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I believe -- yes. I do. 14 Q: And what, if anything, do you recall 15 in addition to what's noted here? 16 A: I don't know if it's here, but I do 17 recall that Speck and Parks -- at some point, I received 18 this information that Speck and Parks were there and they 19 were told that if they were to enter onto the Park that 20 they would be arrested or -- I think that was the word, 21 arrested, and that there would be a confrontation. 22 So I was also aware of that as well. 23 Q: And when was this -- this information 24 from Constable Speck and Park that if they -- when did 25 you learn this information that if they, the officers,
191 entered on the Park they would be arrested? 2 A: I believe it was prior to Mr. 3 Kobayashi and -- 4 Q: On that evening -- 5 A: Yeah, yes. That's my recollection. 6 Q: Now, there's a note at the bottom, 7 22:55, 22:57, about Rose Marie Ur who we then, I 8 understand, was then the -- did you know who Rose Marie 9 Ur was on the evening of September 4th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And she was the member of Parliament 12 for this area? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: At the time. And did you -- could 15 you hear the call that John Carson had with her? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And it's -- 18 A: I should say I don't recall him 19 talking to Rose Marie Ur. 20 Q: And do you recall him advising you 21 and the others that Rose Marie Ur was calling on behalf 22 of her constituents -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- or is that something that he 25 simply told the scribe to put in the scribe notes?
201 A: I don't recall. It wasn't noteworthy 2 as far as my memory is concerned. 3 Q: Then the -- there's a note at the top 4 of page 8, at 23:10: 5 "Mark Wright advised John Carson that 6 Doug Babbitt advised Staff Sergeant 7 Bouwman has been getting calls from 8 Reeves and press. Mark Wright will 9 speak to Reeves, et cetera." 10 And what was that about? 11 A: I believe I was just making myself -- 12 I don't know if I was making myself available or John 13 Carson is making the point here that Mark Wright will 14 speak to the Reeves. 15 In any event, it's clear that that was 16 going to be one of my duties potentially. 17 Q: And we will come to it later but did 18 you speak to any Reeves -- 19 A: Well, I talked to Mr. Thomas down at 20 the what's commonly referred to as the TOC. 21 Q: That's at the MNR parking lot? 22 A: Right. On the afternoon of the 6th. 23 But I don't recollect talking to any other elected 24 official. 25 Q: And at -- while we're at it, the --
211 prior to September the 4th, 1995, had you ever met Marcel 2 Beaubien? 3 A: No. 4 Q: What about Premier Michael Harris, 5 then- Premier Michael Harris? 6 A: No. No. 7 Q: The Attorney General of the day, 8 Charles Harnick? 9 A: No. 10 Q: The Solicitor General, Robert 11 Runciman? 12 A: No. 13 Q: The Minister of Natural Resources, 14 Chris Hodgson? 15 A: No. 16 Q: During the period September 4th to 17 the evening of -- until the incident on -- in the sandy 18 parking lot and the -- did you speak to during the period 19 September 4th to -- let me step back. 20 Prior to September 4th have you ever 21 spoken to either Mr. Beaubien, Mr. Harris, Mr. Harnick, 22 Mr. Runciman or Mr. Hodgson? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And during the period up from 25 September 4th up to the incident in the sandy parking
221 lot, had you ever spoken to -- did you speak or meet Mr. 2 Beaubien in the period September 4th to 6th? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Mr. Harris? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Mr. Harnick? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Mr. Runciman? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Mr. Hodgson? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you speak to any of the staff -- 13 any staffers on behalf of Mr. Beaubien? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Any staffers on behalf of Mr. Harris? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Any staffers on behalf of Mr. 18 Runciman? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Any staffers on behalf of Mr. 21 Hodgson? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And other than the representative of 24 the Ministry of the Attorney General, Tim McCabe, did you 25 speak to any representatives of the Ministry of the
231 Attorney General other than Mr. McCabe and the Crown 2 Attorney -- Assistant Crown Attorney in Sarnia? 3 A: No. I -- I talked to -- I think Mr. 4 McCabe came with -- I think there was more than one (1) 5 Assistant Crown that came from MAG when I went to the 6 injunction -- 7 Q: That was on September -- 8 A: -- yeah, on September 7th, yeah. 9 Q: -- September 7th. I'm talking about 10 up to -- 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: -- the incident in the sandy parking 13 lot, the confrontation in the sandy parking lot. 14 A: Well, then my answer would be no. 15 Q: Now on the evening of September the 16 4th, the plan was to have Number 1 and Number 2 ERT on 17 duty and then Number 3 and 6 the next -- on duty the next 18 day? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And then Brad Seltzer attended on the 21 evening of September 4th and was briefed by John Carson 22 about the notice being served? If you look at Tab -- 23 page 9, 23:43. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And then there's an entry at 23:46:
241 "Mark Wright to John Carson. We should 2 have Crown Foster attend and speak with 3 our crime officers." 4 Can you tell us what that related to? 5 A: Well my function was primarily, and 6 my background was a criminal investigator and I just felt 7 that it might be prudent to have an Assistant Crown there 8 so that the crime officers would have -- be in a position 9 to speak to her in regards to any of the offences that we 10 had in dealing with that -- that incident. 11 We had a very -- we did and we still do 12 have a very positive working relationship with the Crown 13 Attorney's office in this area and -- and the exchange of 14 information was a common practice and still is. 15 Q: And -- did she attend? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And was she requested to attend? 18 A: No. 19 Q: At page 10 at 06:00 hours on the 20 morning of September 5th according to the scribe note, 21 Exhibit P-426, I think is the conversation you were 22 talking about earlier. 23 "MARK: Plan -- 24 WRIGHT: Plan was for what we expect. 25 It's not that way now.
251 JOHN CARSON: We are not going in 2 tonight. 3 MARK WRIGHT: To ensure Bill Dennis 4 gets ERT food prior to patrol." 5 Do you see that entry? 6 A: I do. 7 Q: And did you and John Carson have a 8 discussion about going back in -- another discussion 9 about going back into the Park that night? 10 A: I think this -- this entry 11 demonstrates that it -- it was my feeling at that time 12 that it would appear that that wasn't going to happen now 13 and that our plan was going to have to be adjusted and 14 that Inspector Carson said that we weren't going in 15 tonight. 16 Q: Had you suggested to back in at -- at 17 this point in time? 18 A: No, I think what I'm -- I'm making 19 the point that that's not possible anymore, that we're 20 not going -- we're not going to do that, and that the 21 plan needs to be adjusted. 22 Q: Okay. And if I could take you over 23 to page 11. 24 And really what I'm -- if there's any 25 entry in here, Inspector Wright, that you would like to
261 draw to the Commissioner's attention please draw it to 2 our attention. What I'm trying to do is simply highlight 3 certain of the entries because -- that involved you and 4 so that we can go through this as effectively and 5 efficiently as possible. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And at 0:17 hours if you could go 10 back to page 10 there's an entry: 11 "Mark Wright advised John Carson that 12 he spoke to Foster." 13 So you spoke to Diane Foster that evening? 14 A: Yes, it appears I did. 15 Q: And do you have any recollection of 16 the call? 17 A: No. I -- I think this is in -- in 18 regards to the Technical Support Branch if I read this 19 entry properly and the ensuing authorizations that may 20 potentially be required and that the response from the 21 Assistant Crown is that the Crown is the person because 22 Mr. Vale is the Crown and was the Crown at the time. 23 So she was directing me to the Crown as 24 opposed to her being the Assistant Crown with respect to 25 the authorizations as they required --
271 Q: With respect to the -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And was there an authorization 4 required with respect to putting the surveillance cameras 5 in the kiosk and the maintenance shed? 6 A: Was there an authorization required 7 to place them in there? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I can tell you that I had next to 10 nothing to do with that side of the operation but my -- 11 my understanding was, at the time, was that they were in, 12 those devices were in prior to the takeover of the 13 occupiers. 14 And I don't recall whether there was an 15 authorization or not. My -- my recollection is that 16 there was not but I stand to be corrected on that. 17 Q: Yeah. And -- but the question was do 18 you know if one was needed? We've heard from John Carson 19 that one wasn't needed but I -- 20 A: Again I -- 21 Q: You don't know that? 22 A: -- really had nothing to do with 23 that. 24 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you down 25 to page 11, at the bottom of the page, you'll see 0:34
281 hours Mark Wright's asking you: 2 "Any word back from the guy -- guys? 3 MARK WRIGHT: No, but Constable George 4 must be talking and negotiating." 5 And then an entry 00:37 hours: 6 " "Stan Korosec wants line patched with 7 John Carson. 8 Mark Wright to John Carson. We have 9 twenty-six (26) ERT guys." 10 And then at the top of -- at page 12, 11 00:38: 12 "Stan Korosec line patched to John 13 Carson. Come back to Detachment if 14 they won't accept it, will we serve 15 verbally? Stan Korosec advises they 16 won't accept, to come back tomorrow at 17 noon." 18 And then Stan Korosec advised they blocked 19 the front entrance with a car. 20 And so at the -- the point in time that 21 the -- were you present when this was happening with Stan 22 Korosec? 23 A: I was well aware of what was going 24 on, yes. 25 Q: And then an entry -- there's an entry
291 at 46 -- 00:46, John Carson to Mark Wright: 2 "Notify 3 and 6 to report tomorrow at 3 7:00 a.m. and we have to be here at 4 6:30 to brief them." 5 And that's simply making sure that the 6 6 and 3 ERT teams are there the next morning? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Then Vince George does return with 9 Les Kobayashi at page 13, at 1:10 hours; is that correct? 10 A: That's correct, sir. 11 Q: And there's an -- and you will see 12 the entry, if you just take a moment. At the very last 13 line, it says: 14 "MARK WRIGHT: Access points are open. 15 Do we go?" 16 A: Open, do we go? Yes, I see that. 17 Q: And what recollection -- do you have 18 any recollection today of what was -- you meant -- 19 firstly, did you -- do you recall saying the words: 20 "Access points are open. Do we go?" 21 A: Do I recall that, saying that? No. 22 Q: And does this note assist you at all? 23 A: I'm sure what I meant was, I was 24 asking Inspector Carson was, do -- once again, do we 25 repopulate the -- do we repopulate the Park with the
301 officers. 2 I mean, this was a -- a dynamic situation 3 that, you know, at times there appeared that we could in 4 and at times it appeared that it wasn't probably the best 5 idea to go in. So my -- one of my jobs was to provide 6 options to the incident command and this is, no doubt, 7 exactly what I'm doing is, do you want to repopulate, do 8 we go back to our plan, do we -- do we repopulate the 9 Park? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And if we go up a line, there's a -- 14 in that same entry, Vince George, there appears to be no 15 one in the Park. 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: Well -- correct. If you take that in 19 the context with what -- thank you very much for that. 20 If you take that -- 21 Q: No, Mr. Sandler reminded me of that. 22 A: If you take the -- the entire piece 23 there in context, obviously as I was just saying, that 24 it's a dynamic situation and -- and things change moment 25 to moment, pretty well, in these sort of things.
311 That now we were in a position, based on 2 what Officer George told us was that there was nobody in 3 the Park or there appeared to be nobody in the Park. So 4 I, correspondingly, made the option to Inspector Carson 5 with regards to whether or not we move it back into the 6 Park. 7 Q: So that, as noted in this entry, Mr. 8 -- Constable George -- Vince George reported that Bert 9 Manning, with another person, he spoke to Bert Manning 10 and another person and he saw Dave George but other than 11 those three (3) there appeared to be no one in the Park? 12 A: That's correct. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Then at -- and the next page at Tab - 17 - at page 14 at 1:27 hours, Mark Wright briefing 1 and 2 18 ERT in presence of John Carson. And the -- do you have 19 any recollection of the briefing that you gave the two 20 (2) ERT teams on the morning of September the 5th? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And at this point in time, were the 23 ERT teams going to set up checkpoints under the Project 24 Maple plan? 25 A: That's my recollection.
321 Q: And then there's an entry, 1:34: 2 "MARK WRIGHT: We need structured chain 3 of command. 4 JOHN CARSON: Forest will be only a 5 command office, we want to do this 6 right. Everyone from here to Federal 7 people. 8 MARK WRIGHT: I'm not telling what to 9 carry or not to carry re. firearm, long 10 arms. Use common sense that tactical 11 part is Stan Korosec's call." 12 And this is really part of the -- I take 13 it these notes are part of the briefing? 14 A: Yes, I would agree. 15 Q: And John Carson spoke at the entry on 16 -- at 1:27 and then the -- about being -- about being 17 careful about speaking about safety and then you spoke 18 about the chain of command? 19 A: Correct. I remember -- I have an 20 independent recollection of Inspector Carson talking 21 about -- specifically talking about -- not talking about 22 this in the coffee shops and the like, so as to not upset 23 the general population. I specifically remember that 24 part of the briefing. 25 Q: Then at 1:40 there's a note Trevor
331 Richardson to John Carson: 2 "John, Command Centre arrived. 3 JOHN CARSON: Bob Cottingham have the 4 uniformed guys 10-19 when relieved by 5 ERT. St. John driver explained option 6 and meals being provided. Paul Herding 7 driver introduced to PC Parks to show 8 him the location." 9 And do you recall what's being referred to 10 here? Is this the St. John's Ambulance trailer that was 11 borrowed by the OPP? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: That's my recollection. 15 Q: And that was going to be -- that was 16 stationed in the Ministry of Natural Resources parking 17 lot on East Parkway Drive? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And at the -- this point in time the 20 -- the uniformed guys that are being referred to, were 21 there some uniformed constables on duty around the Park 22 that were going to be relieved by the ERT team? 23 A: Yes, there were. 24 Q: And where were they from? 25 A: Well, they would be from, I suspect,
341 the Grand Bend, Forest, and probably Petrolia 2 Detachments. 3 Q: And when you say you would -- would 4 have been, you don't recall but you're surmising that's 5 where they -- 6 A: Yeah. I'm just going from my 7 experiences that that's the way we would do things. It - 8 - it wouldn't really matter what Detachment you're 9 working in when there's a crisis situation or -- or an 10 occurrence that requires OPP officers the Com-Centre, 11 Communication Centre, just draws from the people who are 12 working and they're sent to where they're needed. 13 Q: Okay. And then there's a note at 14 2:09: 15 "Uniformed members called back for 16 debriefing." 17 And did you participate in that 18 debriefing? There's an entry over at 2:28: 19 "Mark Wright debriefing Don Fraser. 20 Explained Provincial Park gate. Olds 21 Cutlass with one (1) tail light that 22 has spotlight. A four (4) wheeler 23 driving near main gate -- or manned 24 gate with three (3) kids on it. No 25 verbal confrontation reported."
351 A: Well, I don't remember debriefing the 2 uniformed members at 02:09 and the second part, as far as 3 02:28 I think that's probably not written correctly, Mark 4 Wright debriefing Don Fraser. 5 I think what's going on is Don Fraser is 6 debriefing me about what he's seen and he goes into -- 7 and explains to me what he's seen because Don Fraser is a 8 -- was a provincial constable at the time and I suspect 9 that's what's going on there. 10 Q: And there's an indication that 2:30 - 11 - it -- it appears to all be part of the briefing with 12 the uniformed officers -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- because there's an entry at 2:48: 15 "Concluded brief [and] but Wright -- 16 Mark Wright explained current 17 situation; location of ERT. 2:35 Mark 18 Wright covered the confidentiality of 19 the plan. Speaking to the press. 20 Cover chain of command." 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And can you tell us what -- do you 23 have any recollection of this? 24 A: No, but it would appear that from the 25 -- the scribe notes, and I don't take issue with them,
361 that I covered that debriefing of those officers as they 2 were returning from their duties. 3 Q: Okay. And there's a note at 4:54: 4 "Mobile command centre arrived." 5 And you went off-duty according to your 6 notes on September 4th at approximately -- and I'm 7 referring to Exhibit P-1086 -- at three o'clock in the 8 morning? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And so when you returned the next 11 morning at six o'clock according to your notes the 12 command trailer, mobile command trailer, was set up in 13 Forest? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And when the mobile command trailer 16 was established on the morning of September the 5th it 17 was located as I understand it immediately to the west of 18 the Forest Detachment? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And the -- the Forest Detachment 21 right next to the garage area? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And can you describe for us your 24 recollection of how the command centre was set up on 25 September the 5th?
371 I understand there's two (2) -- there were 2 two (2) rooms in this particular command centre? 3 A: Yes, it's a large trailer. At the 4 nose of the trailer was the communications centre, the 5 Com-Centre, and as you moved left to right down the 6 length of the mobile command post, so you have the 7 communication centre then there was -- and there was -- 8 there were one (1) and perhaps two (2) phones on the wall 9 right near the communication centre that -- that area. 10 There was -- there's a doorway that -- the 11 main doorway in and out of the command post. You'd walk 12 in that door, turn right, that's the nose of the trailer, 13 the communication centre. 14 And my recollection is when you walked in 15 the door and turned right, immediately on that wall were 16 the phones, two (2) phones as I recall. 17 Q: And was there a wall between -- or a 18 divider between the communications room in the area in 19 the nose and the rest of the command trailer? 20 A: I don't recall that. I -- there was 21 -- so if you walked in the door and you turned right at 22 the no -- in the nose area there would be the Com- 23 Centre. If you turned left there was what I would call a 24 general meeting area. 25 And I think there was another phone there.
381 As a matter of fact, I'm sure there would be a phone 2 there because on the far wall there was a blackboard or 3 some kind of board because when I talked to Mr. Mercredi 4 on the night of the 6th, that's the phone I used and I 5 was -- I -- I recall scribbling his number on the 6 overhead white board or chalkboard, whatever that was. 7 There was a phone there and then as you 8 continued down the command trailer there was a wall there 9 and a door and there was a small room at the very back of 10 the trailer. 11 And I don't recall if there was a phone in 12 there or not, but there was a small desk area. It's like 13 a private -- private meeting area I would call it; a very 14 small room. And that's my rec -- I don't recall if there 15 was another doorway at the back end of the trailer or 16 not. 17 Q: So that, if I -- if I understand it 18 correctly, your recollection is you went into the trailer 19 from the -- the trailer as I understand it was parked 20 with the nose facing relatively north. 21 The end of the trailer south and you would 22 enter from the east side? 23 A: Yes, I would agree with you. 24 Q: And then at the front was a -- an 25 area with the communication centre?
391 A: Yes. 2 Q: Immediately on the right hand as you 3 went in along the wall was it the east wall of the 4 trailer that the two (2) phones you had mentioned were? 5 A: That's my recollection. I -- I 6 believe I said I think there were two (2). 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I'm not quite sure there were two (2) 9 but I think there were two (2) there. 10 Q: And immediately ahead there was 11 another phone on the west wall of the trailer? 12 A: Well, it wasn't immediately ahead. 13 Once you walked in the door you would have to turn left 14 and walk down into the body of the trailer. The middle 15 of the trailer I would say. 16 Q: And in the middle of the trailer -- 17 was the middle of the trailer, was there a wall and a 18 door in -- towards -- when you walked in and moved -- 19 turned left, did you have to go through a door to -- 20 A: I -- I don't recall if there was a 21 sliding door or -- or a curtain. I don't recall that. 22 Q: And that general area, what was it 23 used for? 24 A: That was -- well we used it for 25 general meetings. I know we -- we did as the notes
401 demonstrate, that we were -- at times we were meeting on 2 the hour and we would have some of those meetings right 3 there in that -- the middle of the trailer I would call 4 it. 5 Q: And where, to your recollection, was 6 John Carson? Where did he spend most of time when you 7 were in the trailer? 8 A: Either there or in the back in that 9 small room or up near the -- I mean it's not a very big 10 place. It doesn't very long to get from one end to the 11 other. 12 Q: And when you were in the trailer, 13 where did you work? 14 A: Same thing. Throughout the -- 15 Q: In the general area? 16 A: General -- generally I stayed in the 17 middle when I was there unless my attention was drawn to 18 the comms or I had to use the phone and the one that was 19 there was being used, then I'd make my way to the -- to 20 the nearest phone. 21 Q: And the -- in the general area there 22 was a phone on the wall that you told us about? 23 A: I think it's on a desk. 24 Q: Okay. On the desk or -- 25 A: Yeah.
411 Q: And was there more than one (1) phone 2 in the general area? 3 A: I -- I only recall one (1). I re -- 4 and then the reason I recall that, as I say, was because 5 I'm sure that's where I took the call from Mr. Mercredi. 6 Q: Because you were in that area? 7 A: Because I recall writing his phone 8 number up on the wall there. 9 Q: And in the communications centre, as 10 I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, 11 there was a civilian radio operator? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And where -- who else was in the 14 communications centre, typically on September the 5th 15 when you were in the command trailer? 16 A: Well, I know there was a civilian 17 radio operator, but there was also a radio sergeant, 18 communications sergeant -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- and Sergeant Cousineau appears 21 throughout this. And I don't recall if that was manned 22 with a sergeant and civilian radio operator at all times, 23 but certainly at -- at times there was a Com-Centre 24 sergeant there and I suspect that the -- the project plan 25 would demonstrate or dictate if there was a -- going to
421 be a Com-Centre sergeant in there at all times. 2 Q: Okay. And where was, when he was on 3 duty, where was Sergeant Korosec located? 4 Was he in the command trailer? 5 A: At some times he was, yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Because he would be -- pardon me, he 8 would be -- I think his term was LIMA 1, he'd be the ERT 9 team leader, so he -- it would necessitate him to be 10 close to comm. so he could talk to his people out on the 11 ground. 12 Q: And LIMA 1 was the reference and 13 we'll come to it later, but LIMA 1 was the reference to 14 the ERT team leader located at the mobile command 15 trailer. 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And LIMA 2 was the reference to the 18 tact -- tactical operations centre located in the MNR -- 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: -- parking lot? And LIMA 2 was also 21 an ERT person? 22 A: That's my recollection, yes, sir. 23 Q: And was LIMA 2 an ERT sergeant or -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, on the morning of the 6th (sic),
431 you went on duty at, according to your notes, at page 73, 2 it's six o'clock and you -- there's an entry: 3 "Debriefing from night shift. [or 4 excuse me] Briefing from night shift 5 and then debrief 1 and 2 ERT. Conduct 6 briefing of 3 and 6 district ERT." 7 Can you tell us -- tell us -- 8 A: What page are you on again, sir? 9 Q: Page 73 of your notes, sir. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Actually, I misspoke myself. I said 14 September 6th and I meant September 5th. 15 A: Okay, thank you. I was wondering 16 what happened to September 5th. 17 Q: No, it -- I misspoke myself. I'm 18 sorry about that. 19 It's the bottom of page 73 is the morning 20 of September the 5th. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so that there's an entry: 23 "Briefing from night shift." 24 And can you -- do you have any 25 recollection of that?
441 A: No, I -- I -- I've looked at the 2 scribe notes for that morning and I'm conducting 3 briefings and it would appear, debriefing the people that 4 eventually show up and debriefing the ERT teams that are 5 leaving for that day. 6 Q: And I take it, it's fair that -- to 7 say that the -- even though it says "debrief 1 and 2 ERT" 8 and then "conduct briefing of 3 and 6 district ERT", how 9 would this work? 10 A: How would...? 11 Q: How did it work back on the morning 12 of September 5th? I'm just trying to get a understanding 13 of -- of how the process operated. 14 A: Sure. My recollection is we had the 15 shift that was going on would attend at the garage -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- area, and then they would be 18 briefed. And then they would go -- and they would be 19 giving -- be given their duties and the locations at 20 which they were going to be working for that tour of duty 21 and then they would go out and take those checkpoints 22 over. 23 And then the night shift would then leave 24 only after having been relieved by the -- the new batch 25 of officers. They would come back to the Detachment and
451 they would be debriefed in the garage and then they would 2 be allowed to go to wherever we had them billeted, which 3 was, frankly, everywhere. 4 Q: So I -- I presume that's the way it 5 would work. I was just looking at your notes and it said 6 debrief 1 and 2 ERT first and then conduct briefing 3 and 7 6 second and really it was the reverse? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And you have a note at the top of 10 page 74: 11 "MNR advised and working on injunction. 12 Les Kobayashi attending scene." 13 And the -- what do you recall about the 14 injunction, the issue of the injunction, having made this 15 note in your book? 16 A: What do I recall? 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Only that -- that that was taking 19 place, that -- that MNR were going to be working on the 20 injunction and that information came from Mr. Kobayashi. 21 I think later on in the -- in the notes, in the scribe 22 notes there's some indication specifically in regards to 23 that information come -- being known to me and others. 24 Q: Okay. And there's a note at page 17 25 of 426:
461 "6:51 Les Kobayashi and Ed Vervoort 2 attended with MNR. Press person 3 Darryl. 4 And then 6:50: 5 "John Carson attended. Spoke with Les 6 Kobayashi and Darryl. 6:59 Mark Wright 7 attended. John VanDam briefed John 8 Wright on night activity." 9 Were you present when Mr. Kobayashi and 10 the press person were in attendance do you recall? 11 A: I suspect I was. 12 Q: Then there's a note. Do you have any 13 recollection? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Then the -- at the top of page 16 18 John Carson and Mark -- at 7:03 hours: 17 "John Carson and Mark Wright. 18 Orientation of command unit with 19 Sergeant Cousineau. John Carson re. 20 telephones. Have one (1) phone that 21 rings here for calls. Like Chief to 22 call me. 23 7:10 John Carson to Stan [it says, 24 "Stank" but it should be Stan] Korosec. 25 Mark Wright, CRO to be only ones in
471 Com-Centre." 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And what's that referring to? 4 A: Well, it appears that Carson is 5 saying to Stan that Mark Wright and the CRO are to be the 6 only ones in the Communication Centre. So it would 7 appear that Inspector Carson doesn't want anybody at the 8 front bubble of the -- of the -- or the front part of the 9 command post other than myself and the CRO. 10 And I think -- I think what he's doing 11 there is just trying to direct traffic within the -- in a 12 relatively small area. 13 Q: Then the next entry at 7:11: 14 "Trevor Richardson, John Carson, Stan 15 Korosec, Mark Wright meeting re. ERT. 16 MARK WRIGHT: We don't know who's in 17 the Park. Let's relieve 1 and 2 for 3 18 and 6. 19 JOHN CARSON: How many people does it 20 take? 21 STAN KOROSEC: Let's use 6 and 3. 22 Those not at checkpoint to cruise 23 around. 24 [Then] JOHN CARSON: Do we have anyone 25 in plainclothes to check around?
481 TREVOR RICHARDSON: Me and George can 2 do. 3 JOHN CARSON: Let's brief and debrief 4 and guys at checkpoint. John Carson, 5 Stan Korosec, and Mark Wright to 6 debrief them at the Detachment and can 7 do forms. John Carson, Stan Korosec, 8 CRO ERT leader in nose of trailer. 9 John Carson, Mark Wright, and Karen 10 Shaw in rear. Every hour we will have 11 five (5) minute debriefing just to 12 ensure all is updated. 13 MARK WRIGHT: Let's call Don Bell and 14 Jim Dyke to assist in plainclothes." 15 And the -- at this point in time the -- 16 you're discussing organization for the day as I take it 17 from this? 18 A: Yes, and -- and if I may, sir, I just 19 -- I -- I don't want to leave the wrong impression. It's 20 a minor point but the -- the comment there at 07:10: 21 "Carson to Korosec, Mark Wright, CRO to 22 be only ones in the Com-Centre." 23 Clearly and Korosec, the -- the LIMA 1, 24 the ERT leader, was always, to my recollection, or the 25 majority of the time very close to the Comm., the
491 Communications Centre, because he was overseeing -- he 2 was responsible for those checkpoints and his people on 3 the ground. 4 So, I don't know, I mean, we're at the 5 mercy of the scribe notes frankly. That might -- you 6 know John Carson, it would appear to me to make more 7 sense that Korosec, Wright, and the CRO to be the only 8 ones in the Comm-Centre as opposed to John Carson telling 9 Stan Korosec that Mark Wright and only the CRO are to be 10 there, because Korosec needed to be in that part of the 11 trailer. 12 Q: No, I perhaps -- perhaps I -- I took 13 it that -- that Carson wanted only Korosec, Wright and 14 the CRO to be in the communication centre. 15 A: Okay, then we're -- we're agreed. 16 Q: And then he goes on in the next entry 17 that he thought that as he puts it: 18 "Stan Korosec, CRO, ERT leader in nose 19 of trailer. John Carson, Mark Wright 20 and Karen Shaw in the rear." 21 And Karen Shaw was the scribe at this 22 point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so that you established that you 25 would have an hourly meeting; is that correct?
501 A: That's right. 2 Q: And did you norm -- we see many of 3 these hourly meetings, that was usually what took place? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And what was the practice with 6 respect to who would normally attend the hourly meetings? 7 A: Normally it would be the -- the unit 8 heads, as I'm fond of referring them, so it would be -- 9 it would be myself and Inspector Carson and Sergeant 10 Korosec and Sergeant Seltzer and Staff Sergeant Dennis 11 and Detective Sergeant Bell and Detective Sergeant 12 Richardson are my -- it's my recollection who were -- 13 those were the people who were for the most part -- but 14 scribe notes will indicate -- 15 Q: Who was at -- 16 A: -- who was there. But -- and 17 sometimes their duties necessitated that they weren't 18 there. There's the odd time that you'll note -- and I'm 19 sure you have that -- I was delegated to run a meeting 20 because Inspector Carson was otherwise involved in 21 something else. 22 So -- but we -- we tried to have those 23 meetings every hour on the hour because it's critical 24 that -- and it goes in keeping with our plan that the 25 people who are managing this and predominantly,
511 obviously, Inspector Carson is aware of exactly, to the 2 best of our ability, what's going on, because these sort 3 of things again are dynamic in nature. 4 I can't say that enough in that things 5 change moment to moment at times. 6 Q: Okay. And then there's a note at the 7 bottom at 7:29, it appears that John Carson stood in on 8 your debriefing of -- or it really should be briefing of 9 3 and 6 ERT's? 10 A: Right because they were the -- 11 Q: They were the guys going out? 12 A: -- day shift. Right. 13 Q: And the -- normally at this time 14 would the shifts on September 5th, were they going to run 15 from eight o'clock to eight o'clock or -- 16 A: Yes. That was my -- that was my 17 recollection. I think what we did was we had them in -- 18 and again, I'm sure there's documents that will attest to 19 this but -- or not, but my understanding is that they 20 came in at -- we had them start at 7:00 because we had 21 to brief them and get them in their cars and get them on 22 their way. 23 And then they had -- they actually had to, 24 you know, travel that distance to get to that area. And 25 then we had to get those other officers back.
521 So there was -- there was somewhat of an 2 overlap there. But I think things started around 7:00. 3 Q: And then it would take some time 4 before they would relieve the other people out on the 5 road and the other people come back in. 6 A: Yeah. These officers were work -- I 7 mean they were -- they were technically on the ground for 8 twelve (12) house of the day but their shift would be 9 longer than that because they'd have to be briefed before 10 they went and then they'd have to wait for their 11 replacements to show up and who -- who would also require 12 to be briefed before they left to take them over. 13 And then they'd come back to the 14 Detachment and of course they would need to be debriefed 15 and cars would have to be replaced and all that sort of 16 stuff. And they would eventually go on their way. 17 Q: Okay. Then there's an entry at 7:40 18 and I take it that this is part of the briefing. 19 "John Carson is briefing. All we want 20 at this point is to contain the area. 21 Today we have to access everything. 22 Just control the area, we don't want to 23 get ambushed. 24 JOHN CARSON: Nobody will be alone. 25 Mark Wright distributed 8 x 10 aerial
531 photos to sergeants ERT. 2 MARK WRIGHT: We want everyone in greys 3 on the road. 4 JOHN CARSON: Plan on being here for a 5 few days." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Do you recall this briefing -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- independent of this note? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you recall what John Carson 12 told the 6 and 3 ERT team in that -- 13 A: I can -- I can recall that, you know, 14 basically just this; that we were -- we were going -- 15 these officers had just arrived and they needed to 16 understand the situation, so there was an overview given 17 and that there were going to be checkpoints. 18 And my recollection is there was an 19 explanation of what was expected of them while they were 20 at these points and that we -- we didn't want to 21 aggravate the situation. We just wanted to control the 22 situation and get, basically, things organized. And he 23 was, obviously, concerned about officer safety as well. 24 Q: And the photo that -- aerial photos 25 that you handed out, the 8X10 aerial photos, can you tell
541 us what that was of? 2 A: I -- I don't have any recollection of 3 that. I -- apparently I -- I gave them to the -- to 4 Sergeants -- I think that means the ERT sergeants I gave 5 them to, so that those supervisors would have an aerial 6 view of the -- of the area that their people were going 7 to be working within and it makes it easier for them to 8 orientate themselves as to what was going on. 9 Q: And presumably the aerial views were 10 in and around the Park and the Army Camp? 11 A: Sure, yes. 12 Q: Then there's a note at 7:55: 13 "Mark Wright advised to John Carson 14 that Staff Sergeant Bouwman attending 15 Bosanquet meeting with Mayor. 16 JOHN CARSON: We have contact with Tom 17 Bressette." 18 And the -- I take it that you're -- can 19 you tell us what this entry's referring to insofar as 20 you're concerned? 21 A: Insofar as I'm concerned, is that 22 we're getting information or there's information coming 23 back to the command post that Staff Sergeant Bouwman who 24 was a Detachment Commander in that area was going to meet 25 with the Mayor and that Inspector Carson wanted to make
551 contact with Chief of the First Nations community in 2 order to have a discussion with him in regards to what 3 had -- what was taking place. 4 Q: And then there's a note at 8:18: 5 "John Carson speaking to Tom Bressette. 6 Advised him of current situation." 7 And did you hear this call? 8 A: I don't recall hearing this call, but 9 I certainly remember being advised of the contents of the 10 call after that in -- and by that I mean that there 11 appeared to be support -- no support from the Council of 12 Kettle Point for the actions that had taken place at the 13 Provincial Park. 14 Q: And the -- there's an entry at 8:27 15 hours: 16 "John Carson received call from Wade 17 Lacroix. Advise 4 ERT. We are trying 18 to contain it. Objective to contain 19 and resolve it peacefully. No one in 20 community is in danger as we have 21 adequate services present. At this 22 point request him to attend as he is 23 aware of plans." 24 Did you hear this call? 25 A: I have no recollection of that.
561 Q: And did you -- when you were in the 2 general area of -- and John Carson was on the phone, were 3 these calls broadcast over a -- a speaker phone -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- so that people -- other people in 6 the command post could -- command trailer could hear 7 them? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. And were you advised by John 10 Carson of the discussion that he had with Wade Lacroix? 11 A: Not that I recall. 12 Q: Were you advised by John Carson that 13 Wade Lacroix advised him that he had been speaking to 14 Marcel Beaubien, the MPP? 15 A: No. Not that I recall, I should say. 16 I mean, I don't -- I can't for sure say that I absolutely 17 didn't know that that happened, but I certainly don't 18 recall that. 19 Q: And did John Carson tell you that 20 Wade Lacroix had been advised by Marcel Beaubien that 21 he's all re -- already -- He just let me know that he's 22 calling the Premier? 23 A: Not that I recall. At some point, I 24 recall Inspector Carson and it's in the meeting -- it's 25 in the scribe notes here, as I recall, somewhere,
571 alluding to the fact that -- that -- that the Premier's 2 office or something along that line was -- was obviously 3 aware of what was going on in this part of Ontario. 4 I was aware of that, at some point. 5 Q: Okay. And -- and perhaps we'll come 6 to that -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- I know that it's there. But what 9 I'm trying to do is understand as we go along if what you 10 -- to the best of your ability now can recall what you 11 may have learned about some of this information that John 12 Carson was receiving. 13 A: Right. I -- sir, I can tell you, if 14 it's any assistance to you, that that sort of thing 15 wouldn't have been of any concern to me with -- because 16 it didn't have anything to do with the duties that I was 17 required to do. 18 I was tasked with a -- a -- in my view, 19 numerous things and I was dealing with the moment to 20 moment situations and -- and minor details and -- that go 21 with running an operation such as this. 22 So that was, as I've said, spoke to 23 yesterday, as far as I was concerned, the bigger picture 24 and, frankly, I was of the opinion then that, you know, 25 if it didn't have anything to do with me, I didn't need
581 to know about it because, frankly, I had enough to do at 2 that time. 3 So, if -- if that's not something that 4 concerned me, then I didn't -- then I was quite content 5 with that and it really didn't have anything to do with 6 me. 7 I took my marching orders, as it were, 8 from Inspector Carson. And in my world, at that time, 9 the chain of command went directly from Carson down to me 10 as far as my concern about what I needed to do when he 11 was there. 12 Q: And when he wasn't there and 13 Inspector Linton was there, then you took your orders 14 from Inspector Linton? 15 A: Yeah, well, Inspector Linton was -- 16 yes, although I -- I want to make it clear that I had a 17 direct reporting relationship to Inspector Carson, 18 separate and distinct, as far as I'm concerned to that 19 reporting relation to Inspector Linton. 20 Certainly when Inspector Linton was there, 21 it was my duty to, you know, inform him of everything 22 like I would any other incident commander, because he was 23 the man in charge. 24 And additionally, Staff Sergeant Dennis 25 and I believe Staff Sergeant Skinner was -- were actually
591 confirmed in the rank of Staff Sergeant. So, although I 2 was an acting Staff Sergeant, in my mind I was -- I was a 3 confirmed Sergeant; they were senior to me. 4 So within that organizational structure 5 that we had, if instructed to do something by a senior 6 officer, then I would do that. 7 Q: Whether -- and you're referring to, 8 in this case, Staff Sergeant Dennis and Staff Sergeant 9 Skinner or -- 10 A: Sure, they would -- they would be 11 senior to me and if they told me to do something then as 12 far as I'm concerned, I'd be obligated to do that; and 13 any other person who was there who was above my rank. 14 Q: Now, just so that I can -- just 15 trying to understand. The -- at page 20 of 426 it shows 16 at 8:33 an entry that -- 17 A: Page 20? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: 8:30 -- 20 Q: At 8:30, Mark Wright advised -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- Les Kobayashi: 23 "Gone to get MTO. Ten (10) barriers. 24 Have them on standby. John Carson and 25 Mark Wright, when it's time we will
601 take enough ERT to set same up. 2 And then do -- can you recall what that 3 refers to, Mr. -- 4 A: No. I don't know what those barriers 5 were for. 6 Q: And: 7 "John Carson and Mark Wright have Les 8 Kobayashi attend. Mark Wright is going 9 to do briefing." 10 And I take it you're off to do a briefing 11 but do you recall the entry; 12 "Mark Wright have Les Kobayashi attend"? 13 A: No, I don't recall that. 14 Q: And on the next page at: 15 "Les Kobayashi appears to be in 16 attendance." 17 If you look at the entry at 8:34. 18 A: Yes, I would agree. 19 Q: And there's a discussion about Marcel 20 Beaubien being in contact with Wade Lacroix and advised 21 that he was calling the Premier. 22 Now were you present when Les Kobayashi 23 was here for this discussion? 24 A: I recall Mr. Kobayashi being in the 25 command post throughout this episode. As to whether or
611 not -- I -- I don't recall specifically this particular 2 occasion. 3 Q: And the -- it appeared from the last 4 entry at 8:33 that you were going to do debriefing of -- 5 at some point and I take it you were -- that refers to 6 the incoming? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you know who it refers to? 9 A: Well, I think if -- I think if you 10 look later on that the -- I'm not so sure that the teams 11 are there yet. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I -- I think people are still coming 14 to the area because they're coming from all -- from all 15 over the place. So I think that's what that refers to. 16 Q: And so can you recall today -- you 17 can't recall today whether you sat in on this meeting 18 between John Carson and Les Kobayashi? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And that -- there's an entry that -- 21 at 8:48: 22 "Don Grant advised that can we Ken 23 Williams, the Reeve of Bosanquet is 24 here to meet with him. Inspector 25 Carson met with Ken Williams."
621 Now, Ken Williams I think was the adminis 2 -- Chief Administrator, not the Reeve of Bosanquet. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Did you know who he was? 5 A: At the time I may have. 6 Q: Okay. And did you attend this 7 meeting with Ken Williams? 8 A: Well -- 9 Q: You're not referred to. 10 A: I don't recall being there, no. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: And -- and I say that if I -- because 13 I know it's a long time ago, but I know they -- I've read 14 this and they talk about getting an injunction on 15 Matheson Drive and I don't ever recall being aware that 16 there was a possibility that we were going to get an 17 injunction for Matheson Drive. 18 So that's the leap I make to think that I 19 wasn't there. 20 Q: Okay. Then at page 23 there's an 21 entry at 9:02. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: "Mark Wright. Les Kobayashi attended 24 command post and stated that Lieutenant 25 Colonel Mack Campbell will shut all the
631 pumps off at the Park in case the 2 occupants decide to keep them running. 3 Mark Wright brought up the issue of 4 intelligence logs to keep them going. 5 Inspector Carson agreed. ERT Sergeant 6 to get a daily report of what happened 7 and give it to Janet Vandenberg. 8 Inspector Carson wanted to know about 9 any incidents that happened overnight. 10 Detective Sergeant Wright stated that 11 some of the occupants mooned some of 12 the members. Inspector Carson stated 13 that they make a list of things to do 14 so they know what's going on and get 15 the map for reference." 16 And the -- you were simply -- can you tell 17 us anything beyond what's noted in the scribe notes with 18 respect to this? 19 A: No, it's just -- the -- the reference 20 to the intelligence logs is -- is just the ongoing logs 21 that we've talked about yesterday, that I wanted -- I 22 thought it -- I thought it was a very good idea that we 23 keep those going with respect to any particular 24 incidents, both reactive and proactive, so we had a 25 record.
641 Q: Okay. And so that you had a record 2 of all the things that were going on? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And at page 24 there's a -- an 5 example I take it of one of the hourly meetings, the -- 6 it's at 9:25 on September the 5th. 7 "John Carson, Trevor Richardson, Mark 8 Wright, Bill Dennis, Brad Seltzer, Stan 9 Korosec, Don Bell." 10 They were all present in the command 11 trailer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us how these 14 briefings, from your recollection, how they normally give 15 the -- proceeded? 16 Did each unit had -- report or how did it 17 -- how did they unfold? 18 A: It was -- it was informal in nature. 19 The scribe was there, and normally my recollection is 20 Inspector Carson would initiate the -- the meeting and 21 he'd give a quick review of what he knew. And then we'd 22 go around, as it were, to each individual in regards to 23 what it is they knew. 24 And then there'd be a -- a pretty free- 25 flowing discussion about what needed to be done and who
651 needed to do whatever it was that that task entailed. 2 Q: And among the things that were 3 reported at this meeting according to the scribe notes, 4 do you have any independent recollection of this 5 particular meeting? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: No, I believe the recollections that 10 I have are as a result of my review of the notes and 11 listening to tapes as they deal with this particular 12 meeting. 13 Q: And one of the things that John 14 Carson is reported in the scribe note to -- to reported 15 is that Tom Bressette was on board? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And he reported the fact that Ken -- 18 Ken Williams are getting legal advice for an injunction 19 on Matheson Drive? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And do you recall that Matheson 22 Drive? 23 A: I -- I remember -- I don't -- I don't 24 recall the -- I don't ever recall any discussion about an 25 injunction on Matheson Drive. I certainly recall that
661 the Chief of Kettle Point and -- and his position, as it 2 was relayed back to me, because I -- I felt that that was 3 fairly important. 4 Q: And why did you think that was 5 important? 6 A: Well, because it was -- I mean we -- 7 we were obviously in a difficult situation there, and 8 again I was of the -- of the mind-set that that property 9 belonged to the Province of Ontario; that property being 10 the Park. 11 And every time -- and -- and that 12 information from the Chief of the Band, of the local band 13 there, was important to me because that, in my mind, 14 solidified the information that I had received from 15 Inspector Carson that there was no issue with respect to 16 ownership of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 17 And that -- that was -- that was important 18 to me to understand that issue, because I felt that was 19 somewhat the crux of the -- the problem or the issue. 20 Q: And at this point in time on the 21 morning of September the 5th had you received any 22 information or had any discussions with respect to a 23 burial ground in the Park? 24 A: In the Provincial Park? 25 Q: Yes.
671 A: No, I knew that there was a cemetery 2 in CFB Ipperwash because Inspector Carson had told me 3 there was. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: And I also knew that there was a -- a 6 point of land on Ipperwash Provincial Park that had 7 cultural significance to the First Nations people; and 8 that I believe I knew that they -- there was arrangements 9 between the First Nations community and the MNR -- I -- I 10 took it to be MNR that they could enter on at any time so 11 that they could go to this point because of its cultural 12 significance to them. 13 But that's -- that's all I knew with 14 respect to any burial ground or any significant property, 15 as it had to do with the First Nations people. 16 And -- and I guess in order to be clear 17 here, I was certainly aware of the position of the First 18 Nations community as it applied to Canadian Forces Base 19 Ipperwash. 20 I mean, I was -- there was no doubt in my 21 mind of the issue there and that they had ownership and 22 that during World War II it had been expropriated and -- 23 and it initially belonged to them. 24 I mean it was clearly, in -- in my mind, 25 my personal mind was that they had, at the very least,
681 colour of right to that property. 2 Q: To the -- to the Ipperwash Army Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- but do you recall, today, 5 on September 5th or September 6th, 1995, receiving any 6 information with respect to a burial ground and the claim 7 of a burial ground in the Park? 8 A: A claim of a -- well, I remember Glen 9 George and the conversation, as I alluded to yesterday, 10 Glen George and Les Jewel telling me that they felt that 11 that, you know, port -- particular parcels of land 12 belonged to them but I don't recall him telling me it was 13 because there was a burial ground there. 14 Q: Excuse me for a moment. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay, if we could go back to 426, 19 page 24. There's a report at the bottom of the page that 20 Trevor Richon -- inquires -- Richardson inquires about 21 MNR. John Carson replies MNR is working on an 22 injunction. 23 And then at the top of page 25: 24 "John Carson discussed, issued about 25 injunctions. Stated that the party the
691 injunction is against has the option to 2 appear. Doubtful it will happen today. 3 Advised that Staff Sergeant Lacroix has 4 been in contact with Marcel Beaubien, 5 local Member of Parliament. He is 6 updating the Premier on the situation." 7 A: And I think that's what I'm alluding 8 to when we spoke just moments ago about at some point I 9 became aware that there was that sort of dynamic going 10 on. And I think that's when that took place. 11 Q: And was there any discussion among 12 the members present at this meeting about the information 13 that both -- Marcel Beaubien had called Staff Sergeant 14 Lacroix and that Marcel Beaubien is updating the Premier? 15 A: No, not that I recall. 16 Q: And did you observe any reaction of 17 the other officers present at the meeting, if any, to the 18 information about Marcel Beaubien updating the Premier? 19 A: No, not that I recall. 20 Q: And then there's a note that's 21 further down the page, fifth paragraph: 22 "John Carson wants preparation for a 23 meeting with the occupants. Wants Brad 24 Seltzer in on it to be a spokesperson. 25 Check with Lorne Smith on his
701 availability to be part of the 2 negotiations. Want to keep the 3 negotiator at a lower level, such as a 4 sergeant or staff sergeant." 5 And that's with respect to opening 6 negotiations? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And what happened -- what happened as 9 a result of this? 10 A: Well, we spent, as the notes 11 demonstrate, we spent some time that day trying to 12 determine, obviously led by Inspector Carson's concern 13 about who were the best people to send down there. And I 14 think the notes will demonstrate that Seltz -- Sergeant 15 Seltzer had some significant input into that, as well. 16 And then we got into the -- the -- a 17 discussion with respect to perhaps that Vince George 18 would be an appropriate person to -- I think -- I think, 19 how it goes is that he was potentially going to be a -- 20 assist in negotiating. 21 And then it was perhaps he'd be there to 22 make an introduction for the negotiators, because 23 Inspector Carson was very much alive and concerned about 24 Constable George's position within the community, and 25 putting him in a -- in a position that was unfair.
711 So, I recall that it was -- we were going 2 to speak to Vince, but it was going to be certainly a 3 volunteer sort of thing, with respect to whether or not 4 Vince was prepared to do that. 5 Q: And Lorne Smith was a retired office 6 at this point. 7 A: Right. Recently retired staff 8 sergeant from Forest, as I recall. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Pinery, pardon me, Pinery Detachment. 11 Q: And I believe you said yesterday that 12 he had a -- some relate -- longstanding relationship with 13 the people at Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes. There -- there were a number of 15 officers there who had significant long-term working 16 relationships and standing with Kettle Point. 17 Q: And there's a note at the top of page 18 26, as part of this briefing: 19 "Asked the Sergeant Korosec if there 20 was any ERT concerns. Stan Korosec 21 advised good bodies, will be a 22 confrontation if it goes. 23 John Carson. If you get an opportunity 24 to get in, arrest suspects, get in and 25 get out with them.
721 Mark Wright advises getting a warrant 2 for Glen George. We have pictures to 3 show the Number 3 District officers who 4 have just arrived." 5 And do you have any independent 6 recollection of that -- this part of the discussion? 7 A: No. I believe my recollection comes 8 from the review of the scribe notes. 9 Q: And does it assist your recollection 10 reviewing the scribe notes? 11 A: Yes, it does. 12 Q: Okay, can you tell us what you recall 13 about this part of the meeting? 14 A: Well, I -- I think it flows from the 15 top of the page and continues on for a bit. Now, what's 16 going on here is that Inspector Carson is -- is -- is 17 leading a discussion with respect to potentially -- 18 potential contingency planning in regards to re -- with 19 regards to entering the Park. 20 And we're back to the -- in my mind, we're 21 back -- we're back to the repopulating of the Park, 22 whether or not that's a possibility or not. And we're 23 discussing the potential -- the potential for that. 24 And I think if you -- you read on you will 25 see -- because by this time we have a number of
731 individuals who we have either warrants for or certainly 2 reasonable probable grounds to believe that they've 3 committed particular offences and that we can arrest. 4 And so we're talking about that and we're 5 talking about -- if you look further down on the fifth 6 paragraph, Bill Dennis, who's the Staff Sergeant, speaks 7 to Korosec. 8 And he's telling him, Well if -- if this 9 is going to happen, then you need to give me some lead 10 time because I anticipate you're going to use some of 11 these ERT officers that are doing the checkpoints, and 12 then therefore we're going to need to repopulate those 13 checkpoints. 14 So, you know, there's -- there's some -- 15 some serious discussion about movement of OPP officers 16 into the Park, in regards to this. 17 And it goes -- it goes on -- 18 Q: The note: 19 "JOHN CARSON: Once we get in the 20 Park, remember public safety. 21 STAN KOROSEC: Put as many people in 22 the Park as possible." 23 A: That's right. So again it's -- it's 24 this -- the way I -- I think is best described, this ebb 25 and flow with respect to, you know, where are we within
741 the dynamics of this occurrence? 2 And at that particular time, can we 3 revert back to our plan? And if we are going to do that, 4 what our the -- what are the logistics and the specifics 5 that -- that we have to deal with with respect to that 6 particular option. 7 And -- and that's just -- that's just a 8 positive way to deal with an ongoing situation, in that 9 you need to always be looking at your options. And as a 10 subordinate to an Incident Commander, you need to be 11 giving that -- officers all the information that you have 12 so that they can make whatever they think is the 13 appropriate decision. 14 Q: And the plan right -- the plan being 15 -- the option being discussed here is going back to the 16 cohabitation plan putting as many officers in the Park as 17 possible, to be in the Park with the occupiers? 18 A: That's right. And -- and, I know 19 we're going to get to this a little later, but from a 20 personal point of view, this is -- at this particular 21 time in the morning, my mind-set is this is a potential, 22 a real potential. 23 And that I'm also aware that MNR is 24 working on an injunction. And it doesn't appear that 25 it's going to happen within the next twenty-four (24)
751 hours but it appears that it's going to be coming our 2 way. 3 Q: And then there's a note: 4 "Mark Wright arranging for a chopper to 5 attend." 6 That was a task that was assigned to you? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And we'll come back to that. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: But the -- then at the top of the 11 page 27: 12 "John Carson instructed Detective 13 Sergeant Wright to find out 14 intelligence information; to call 15 Inspector Robertson to arrange for the 16 helicopter. 17 Mark Wright stated it's a way to see 18 activity in the Park." 19 And the intelligence information that you 20 are being asked to find out, can you recall what that 21 was? 22 A: Well, we wanted to know -- this is 23 the morning of the 5th. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And I think there's some kind of memo
761 -- indication in here that we -- we don't know -- now, 2 it's the morning and we're not sure well, you know, what 3 -- what is the status of the Park? Who's in the Park? 4 How many people are in the Park? What's going on? 5 So my -- my recollection is that Carson 6 wants to know who's in the Park. The last we have is -- 7 that I recall is Vince George saying that there appears 8 to be nobody in the Park and that's earlier on that 9 evening. So he's asked me to see to it that intelligence 10 officers go down there in that area and see if they can 11 get some information regarding what's going on down 12 there. 13 Q: Okay. And then there's an entry: 14 "Stan Korosec asked about the use of 15 the TRU team. 16 John Carson. Get an assessment of the 17 situation every hour. Have a briefing 18 so everyone knows what is going on." 19 Do you recall, with the aid of the scribe 20 notes, any -- any more -- any of the discussion with 21 respect to the TRU team; what was being discussed at that 22 point? 23 A: No, I -- I have a recollection that - 24 - I don't know if "recollection" is the accurate term, 25 but I certainly -- I certainly remember that we had a
771 general, overall concern about officer safety down there, 2 because on the afternoon of the 4th at approximately four 3 o'clock prior to the takeover there was an altercation at 4 the end of Matheson Drive. 5 Q: Down on the beach? 6 A: Right. And I believe Korosec and 7 Detective Sergeant Richardson, if my memory serves me 8 correctly, were two (2) of a number of OPP officers there 9 that were -- became involved in the confrontations with a 10 number of First Nations people and a vehicle. 11 And it -- the -- there was a damage -- 12 there was damage to the -- a cruiser as a result of that. 13 And more significantly was, as it was related to me, was 14 the trunk of the car being driven of the First Nations 15 people had popped open and there was a rifle in there. 16 And one (1) of the First Nations 17 individuals reach for the butt of the rifle and one (1) 18 of our OPP officers reached for the -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner -- 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: I understand the objection. This was 23 information that was provided to you afterwards? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: You weren't there?
781 A: That's right. 2 Q: And so this is simply information 3 somebody reported to you? 4 A: Yes, and I -- I -- the only reason I 5 relayed that is because it has to do with your question 6 about the TRU team and my -- my personal concern and 7 everybody else's personal concern, and that goes to, in 8 my mind that particular situation. 9 Q: So -- well, the information had been 10 provided to the other officers about what happened on the 11 beach at -- on -- on the afternoon of September -- 12 A: Certainly to me. 13 Q: To you? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And can you tell us who relayed it to 16 you? 17 A: My -- my -- well, my recollection is 18 Korosec -- at one point or another, both Korosec and 19 Richardson told me about this. 20 Q: Okay. And Korosec and Richardson -- 21 at least Korosec, we know, was there and I think 22 Richardson, was he there too? 23 A: I -- I think he was. 24 Q: Now, but do you recall anything else 25 about...
791 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I just don't 4 understand why we can't know what information he was 5 provided about this and that he -- he was cut off in mid- 6 sentence when he was saying someone reached for a -- a 7 rifle butt and one (1) of our officers and then it 8 stopped. 9 And now, clearly it's hearsay, we -- we 10 know it's hearsay -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know 12 it's hearsay. 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: But just on the basis 14 for us understanding, I would have thought -- I would 15 like to hear the last answer. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I have no trouble 17 with that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 20 CONTINUED BY DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And what was your -- I stopped you as 22 you were about to say that, from your understanding based 23 on the information provided to you by Sergeant Korosec 24 and perhaps Sergeant Richardson -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.
801 Q: -- that someone reached for a rifle 2 butt and -- 3 A: And officer reached for the butt of 4 his -- or the handle of his handgun and that was 5 basically the end of that -- that -- it didn't go any 6 farther than that. 7 The -- my information was that the First 8 Nations person removed his hand from the -- the -- the 9 firearm that was in the trunk, and that was the end of 10 that, with respect to the firearm. 11 But it goes to my state of mind, and I'll 12 pause here in the event that you don't want to hear what 13 my state of mind was, because I'm not sure if you want me 14 to go there or not, but -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 16 THE WITNESS: -- it re -- it deals with 17 true -- true concerns that -- that were taking place at 18 the meeting, so I'm in your hands. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Well, but the -- you've indicate -- 22 what I asked was: What discussion was there about TRU 23 and -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- as a result of this? And you
811 indicated you were concerned about officer safety because 2 of this incident that you had just -- you had been told 3 about this incident. 4 A: Yes, yes. 5 Q: And were you con -- you, personally, 6 what other concerns did you have in your mind? 7 A: Well, my concern arose from that -- 8 that particular incident and -- and certainly the other - 9 - I was alive to reports throughout the summer from our 10 campers that they'd heard firearms going off from the 11 Park. And I appreciate that -- 12 Q: Not from the Park but from the Camp? 13 A: Thank you, from the Camp. And I 14 appreciate that, you know, that could have been the 15 people hunting or, you know, a firearm going off is 16 nothing more than a firearm going off, I guess. 17 But to put a point on it, it was that -- 18 with respect to this, my concern was that, A) there were 19 weapons -- there were obviously weapons down in the area 20 of the Park, because of what had taken place with those 21 officers, and in my mind, it appeared a -- there was a 22 willingness to use those, potentially, as a result of 23 what had taken place. 24 Hence the concern about -- and Korosec is 25 the one who brings this up at the meeting. And so the
821 general concern is that, you know, there's -- there's -- 2 there are weapons. But it's more than just the mere 3 presence of weapons, it's the potential of -- of them -- 4 an indication of a willingness to, perhaps, use them. 5 And it doesn't go any farther than that 6 and -- but, you know, the -- the reasonable thing, 7 therefore, then is to flow into, well, perhaps, you know, 8 a TRU team in and around the area would be a reasonable 9 thing to do because of this particular set of 10 circumstances. And it goes to, again later on in the 11 notes, where Inspector Carson starts looking at armoured 12 personnel vehicles. 13 So in my mind, that's all flowing from 14 what starts at four o'clock in the afternoon on the end 15 of Matheson Drive with the firearm, and -- and then the - 16 - the confrontation with Korosec and the damage to the 17 cruisers; just a violent tendency to -- overall. 18 Not -- not -- and I don't want to 19 overstate this, because -- 20 Q: You have two (2) incidents. 21 A: Yeah, that's right. But -- but 22 caution on the part of the -- the team running this under 23 the command of Carson would seem to dictate, certainly in 24 my mind, that that would have been a prudent thing, to 25 have TRU in and around the area.
831 Q: And TRU was part of Project Maple, 2 having a TRU team available. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And the TRU team -- on the morning of 5 September 5th, had the TRU team been called out? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And so what -- do you recall 8 any other discussion about the TRU team at this point in 9 time? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And then there's a note attributed to 12 you, there's a number of notes, and I'm not going to go 13 to them all, but if there are any that you wish to draw 14 to our attention that -- please do, but Mark Wright 15 brought up -- brought up the issue -- it says: 16 "Brought up the issue of having an MNR 17 representative attend our hourly 18 meetings. John Carson said yeah, 19 you're right. We should have a 20 representation here. Brad Seltzer 21 stated that the negotiator should know 22 what's going on and that the negotiator 23 shouldn't change, should be the same 24 one all along. John Carson advised 25 that that was a good point."
841 Now, do you recall bringing up the issue 2 of having an MNR representative attend the hourly 3 meetings? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: And why did you bring that? 6 A: Why did I bring that up? Because I 7 thought at the time that it was a good idea. They were, 8 again my mind-set was that the Province of Ontario was 9 the lawful owner -- property owner of Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park; that there were people unlawfully on 11 that property and that the complainant, if you will, was 12 MNR. 13 And Kobayashi was their man on the -- 14 their man at the scene with respect to that, so -- and he 15 was getting or he was giving us information with respect 16 to the obtaining of the injunction so I thought it 17 reasonable that we had him there. In hindsight, I'm not 18 so confident that that was an appropriate decision. 19 Q: That's with the benefit of hindsight? 20 A: That's with the benefit of hindsight, 21 yes. 22 Q: And then there's a note: 23 "Mark Wright wants to have Vinnie 24 George to meet the occupants at noon 25 hour. John Carson instructed Brad
851 Seltzer to go with him. 2 Mark Wright to check with Stan Korosec 3 and have Vinnie attend here at 11:00 4 hours." 5 And Vinnie is Constable Vince George?" 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And what in fact happened was you 8 attended with Brad Seltzer, which we'll see later on? 9 A: And Les Kobayashi. 10 Q: And Les Kobayashi? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Then there's at the bottom at 9:51: 13 "Detective Staff Sergeant Wright 14 advised that he contacted Inspector 15 Robertson, GHQ, regarding the 16 helicopter. He advised that the 17 Brampton helicopter's out of service 18 for two (2) weeks and the other 19 helicopter is in Sault Ste. Marie and 20 only has seventeen (17) hours available 21 on it. 22 Inspector Robertson to contact RCMP 23 regarding availability of their 24 chopper. MNR to contact Toronto about 25 their chopper. Inspector Robertson
861 reports back to Detective Sergeant 2 Wright. 3 And Inspector Wright informed John 4 Carson that the RCMP chopper is in 5 British Columbia." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And that was the first call you had 8 with Inspector Robertson? 9 A: Yes, I believe so, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 11 would this be a good point to take the break? Are you -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- going 14 into the call now? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, sure. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Shall we 17 take a morning break now or do you want to go a little 18 further? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's fine. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 21 a morning break now. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 10:36 a.m.
871 --- Upon resuming at 11:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Now I've read to you, just before the 8 break an entry at page 28, 09:51 hours with respect to a 9 call that you had with Inspector Robertson. 10 And Inspector Robertson was the officer in 11 charge with, among other things, logistics providing 12 equipment that was necessary? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And we don't have a transcript or a - 15 - of this call, do you know where -- can you recall today 16 where you were when you called Inspector Robertson? 17 A: I've listened to this call and from 18 the background noise it sounds to me like I'm in the 19 command -- the mobile command post because of the 20 conversation that I can hear in the background. 21 Q: Well, I think that actually the -- 22 there's a second call that I'm going to play in a moment 23 that comes at 10:42 -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- which I think is the -- we don't
881 have a -- I'm instructed by Mr. Sandler that the reason 2 for this first call, a tape of this first call. So the 3 call I believe you must have listened to must have been 4 the second call, which I'm going to play in a moment. 5 A: You've lost me. 6 Q: You said you listened to a call? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: There are two (2) calls the morning 9 -- at least this call is entered in the logger scribe -- 10 in the scribe notes at 9:51. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: We have a call for which we have a 13 transcript that was made by you at approximately 10:42 on 14 September the 5th. 15 A: Right. That's the one I was alluding 16 to. 17 Q: Okay. Which is different than the 18 information in this call. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: And so the -- the question was, the 21 first call, do you recall where you were when you made 22 the first call? 23 A: I don't recall the first call. 24 Q: Okay. Now, at page 29, 10:16 there's 25 an entry:
891 "Mark Wright advised that he was 2 waiting for Intelligence to report back 3 to him. Wants to get the helicopter so 4 that videos can be taken." 5 And can you tell us, you're looking at 6 that point for information as to who was in the Park? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And this appears to be -- was there 9 another meeting at this period of time? 10 A: Was there another meeting? 11 Q: Going on? Because there's references 12 that are perhaps it was a continuation of the other 13 meeting. 14 A: It -- it may have been a continuation 15 of another meeting or it -- it could have been scribe 16 notes being taken because pertinent information was being 17 exchanged. 18 Q: Yes. And at the top of page 30, 19 Inspector Wright, there's an entry. The first entry 20 relates to Trevor Richardson. The second entry is: 21 "Mark Wright advised that the Blockade 22 Committee is holding a meeting today at 23 11:00 hours to discuss their position 24 on the injunction. Les Kobayashi 25 discusses their position on the
901 injunction." 2 And can you tell us what was your -- the 3 source of your information that the Blockade Committee 4 was meeting at eleven o'clock on September the 5th? 5 A: I think it comes from Les Kobayashi. 6 Q: And when you say you, "think it comes 7 from Les Kobayashi," why do you say that? 8 A: I guess it's an inference on my part 9 at best because I just -- I don't have any independent 10 recollection of how I knew that to be, but I take no 11 issue with the fact that I knew that -- 12 Q: And -- 13 A: -- to be. 14 Q: -- you had said, earlier this 15 morning, just before the break, that -- about the 16 attendance of Les Kobayashi, that in retrospect perhaps 17 that wasn't such a good idea? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And why do you say that? 20 A: Well, I say that now because of the - 21 - the position I'm in with respect to the OPP now and my 22 function as the Detective Inspector. 23 In an incident where there's a victim or a 24 complainant we are not in -- not in the habit of bringing 25 the complainant into the investigative team meetings or
911 the -- the -- I think that's a fair way of putting it, 2 the -- the planning meetings with regards to what it is 3 we're going to do. 4 And, you know, I think it was -- I think 5 it -- what we should have done was obtained relevant 6 information from Mr. Kobayashi with regards to what it 7 was they were doing as it -- as it dealt with the 8 injunction. 9 But then we should have him leave and 10 conducted our -- our business by ourselves because it was 11 a police function and it just -- well, I know now that 12 there was some confusion as far as information leaving 13 that command post and going to places where it perhaps 14 shouldn't have and -- and it's just probably not the best 15 way of doing business. 16 Q: And so as you've put it, in 17 retrospect it wasn't such a good idea and those are the 18 reasons why? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at this point in time, was Les 21 Kobayashi, do you recall, in the command post? 22 A: I think he was. 23 Q: Okay. And then were people coming 24 and going in the command post? Like the next entry is 25 Don -- Detective Sergeant Don Bell went to the Park.
921 A: Yes. 2 Q: And reports back what they did at the 3 Park. 4 A: Yes. And that's, obviously, in my 5 mind, in keeping with the meeting of 09:52 when we want 6 to know, and I use the -- 7 Q: You mean 09:25? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes, 09:25, that we, collectively, 12 are interested in who's in the Park and what's -- what's 13 going on in the Park. 14 So that's -- and the Inspector wants -- 15 wants to know that and I've been delegated to have the 16 intelligence officers go down there and find that out. 17 Q: And Don Bell, Detective Sergeant Bell 18 reports back at 9:42 what they've found down there. 19 A: 10:42. 20 Q: 10:42, excuse me. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And then at 11:04 there's another 23 briefing, have I read that correct? 24 A: 11:04? Yes. 25 Q: The top of page 31. If I could take
931 you, stop you for a moment and ask you to turn to in the 2 second Volume, Tab 20. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I'm going to play a conversation 8 and I'd like you to listen. This is a -- this is a 9 conversation, Commissioner, between Inspector -- then 10 Sergeant Mark Wright and Inspector Ed Robertson on 11 September 5th, 1995, and according to the information on 12 the logger tape it was at 10:42 hours on September the 13 5th. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 16 17 Region 1 18 Mark Wright and Inspector Ed Robertson 19 September 5, 1995 10:42 hrs 20 Mobile Command Unit - Logger Tape #1 Track 1 Disc 1 of 3 21 22 [ER = Inspector Ed Robertson] 23 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 24 25 ER: Ed Robertson.
941 MW: Hello Inspector, its Mark Wright. 2 Background: 467 3 ER: Yeah Mark. Can you just tell me exactly 4 what happened last night - I'm - I was 5 E.D.O. but there was nothing really that 6 came through on the log. So... 7 MW: Okay. Well basically what happened is 8 about 7:30 last night they broke through 9 some fences that separate CFB Ipperwash 10 from Ipperwash Provincial Park. And 11 somewhere between twenty and forty natives 12 took possession of Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park. Umm- we had some ERT guys go down 14 there and there was some major 15 confrontation. We had cruiser damage, we 16 had one guy almost hurt to the point where 17 we had 15 ERT guys in there and they 18 called a 10-78. We had to bring in 19 everybody in the County. So we removed 20 ourselves from the Park and we did some - 21 we blocked the roads going in there to try 22 and control the amount of people going in 23 and out of that place. 24 ER: Mmhmm. 25 MW: And ah...
951 ER: Were they armed Mark? 2 MW: Well - we - there was a confrontation 3 about 4 o'clock yesterday afternoon. There 4 was a guy - a native, started to bring a 5 rifle out of the trunk of a car but ahhh- 6 one of our ERT guys grabbed - went for his 7 40 cal and they - they put the gun back 8 in. So there's no doubt they've got guns. 9 ER: Mmhmm. 10 MW: So we had one - overnight we had 1 and 2 11 District ERT man roadblocks. [inaudible] 12 gone to bed and we have 3 and 6 District 13 ERT up here to replace them. We also have 14 a TRU team in here now, got the Mobile 15 Command Post here as well as we've 16 completely taken Forest Detachment, Forest 17 Detachment doesn't exist anymore. That's 18 also part of the Command Centre. 19 Background: Okay 24-67 20 MW: [continues]...MNR - of course we're acting 21 on behalf of MNR. They're the landlords. 22 We tried to serve them with notice last 23 night that they were trespassing pursuant 24 to the Trespass to Property Act. They 25 refused Notice but as far as we're
961 concerned they've been notified. 2 ER: Is that the lease deal - the thing? 3 MW: No, no no! This is the Provincial Park 4 owned and there's no - there's no... 5 ER: Its not like Serpent Mound? 6 MW: No! No, no. There's no doubt that we've 7 had this researched, that Park belongs to 8 -ahh - the Province of Ontario. 9 ER: Okay. 10 MW: Okay. Absolutely no doubt whatsoever about 11 that. So ah - at eleven o'clock this 12 morning, the MNR, and all their ministry 13 levels are meeting and they're going to go 14 get us an injunction, 'cause that's what 15 we want. We want a piece of paper... 16 ER: Mmhmm. 17 MW: ...and our intention is to go back in and 18 take that Park. Now we just got 19 Intelligence now. We had two Intelligence 20 guys go into the Park, like I told you 21 we're going to do, and they're cutting 22 down trees and startin' to barricade the 23 front of the Park and that's like fresh 24 right off the wire. Nobody - we - John 25 Carson, me and you know right now
971 (laughs). 'Bout that. Better than...we 2 haven't even got it out yet to anybody. 3 ER: I'm just - we're rounding up a bunch of 4 223's for you and some Wing Masters and 5 all sorts of ammunition. 6 Background: [loud indistinct noises] 7 MW: Oh, okay. 8 ER: We're just doing that now. I just started 9 that process after I spoke with you last. 10 MW: Uh huh. 11 ER: The best I can arrange is maybe between 12 three and four o'clock an RCMP chopper - 13 we're going to bring the night's on and 14 F.L.I.R. with it. 15 MW: All right! Three or four? 16 ER: Yeah. 17 MW: Where they come from sir? 18 ER: Ottawa. 19 Background: [Indistinct noise interruptions] Point 20 Delta. Twenty-four sixty-five. Go. 21 ER: I can - 22 MW: See, I'll tell ya what happened here. 23 Background: [loud indistinct noises] 24 ER: What I'll do is - I can bring the Sudbury 25 machine down but we can't do a lot of
981 flying. 2 MW: No, no. See, I think like - there's like - 3 real - real potential for one of our guys 4 to get hit. Like we've - we've - as 5 drastic as this sounds, we've planned in 6 that event. 7 ER: Okay. 8 MW: But that... 9 ER: [interrupting] Okay, one thing that I need 10 to know then Mark, is before you do 11 anything I'll make sure I have a machine 12 of some sort there. 13 MW: Yeah, yeah. 14 ER: Okay? 15 MW: Yeah. I'll tell you what we're - MNR has 16 got a - a chopper on contract and it made 17 - we're trying to track down where that 18 is. 19 ER: Well, I can go through MNR but the - the 20 only thing I can arrange something there 21 but the problem is putting a commercial 22 operator into that situation where we know 23 that they've been shot at - ahh - I don't 24 think first off you're going to get a 25 commercial operator to do that.
991 MW: Mmm. 2 ER: You know, we're talking their livelihood 3 and their two or three or four million 4 dollar machine. 5 MW: Mmhmm. 6 ER: Okay? 7 MW: Mmhmm. Yeah. 8 ER: So, I'll go to DND right now. I'll see 9 what I can arrange there. I'll see what I 10 can arrange through MNR. 11 MW: Yeah. I'll tell you why we'd like to get 12 in there earlier. Because we've been at 13 this for over a month now like with people 14 on the ground and stuff. In there we've 15 had other guys camping there and we've had 16 ERT on the ground here 24 hours of the day 17 for the last month. And basically what 18 happens is, they start rockin' and rollin' 19 about ah - around 2, 3, 4 o'clock and it 20 gets busy for us, like really busy for us 21 between four and two o'clock in the 22 morning 'cause they're out of the sack and 23 they're out to cause trouble. So what we'd 24 like to do is, we'd like to get our people 25 back into the Park prior to that, before
1001 they start moseying around and start 2 bringing - you know people start wandering 3 back into the Camp and we're really 4 uncomfortable, sending our guys in there, 5 without somebody overhead. 6 ER: I can appreciate that. I guess we're just, 7 we're screwed here. What if I bring 8 Sudbury down and - 9 MW: [interrupting] No. And I talked to John 10 about that and I explained your position 11 and we - there's no doubt that we agree 12 that you know - we've got the entire 13 province to concern ourselves with - you 14 know, as much as this isn't an issue for 15 us down here, we're certainly cognizant of 16 that. But I'm just trying to give you the 17 complete picture so you have all the 18 information you know that. The sooner the 19 better is the best I can give ya. And if 20 it can't get here 'til four then we're 21 fucked til four but if you can get here 22 sooner then the better off we are. 23 ER: Okay. I'll see what I can pull out of DND. 24 I don't know. 25 MW: Okay.
1011 ER: But I'm really - 2 MW: [interrupting] Yeah, I know you can't pull 3 rabbits out of hats. 4 ER: Well, I've done it before! Okay? [both 5 laugh]. Leave it with me Mark. 6 MW: Okay. 7 ER: Its just the commercial issue that - you 8 can't put a commercial operator in there 9 and expect that he is going to willingly 10 fly in and out. 11 MW: Yeah. 12 ER: ... and get shot at. 13 MW: Well, I'll tell you what. You're right up 14 to speed about our predicament here and 15 I'll leave it in your hands. I'll brief 16 Inspector Carson and you'll get back to us 17 as to ETA and availability. How does that 18 sound? 19 ER: Tell Johnny that whatever he needs that 20 I'll find for him. 21 MW: Okay. Well that's what we need. We need a 22 chopper boss. 23 ER: Okay. Anything else? 24 MW: No, I can't - I can't see anything else 25 other than a chopper right now.
1021 ER: Okay. 2 MW: We got TRU and everybody up here. 3 ER: We'll start whippin' the extra 2-2-3's and 4 the ammunition... 5 MW: [interrupting] Well I got the ERT - like 6 we're pretty ahh... 7 ER: The ERT's in on 2-2-3. That's all. 8 MW: Yeah, we've got - Stanley do we need extra 9 weaponry down here? Do you want extra 10 weapons? We're talking about 2-2-3's and 11 what sir? 12 ER: Wing Masters. 13 MW: Wing Master - twelve gauge? Do we need any 14 more guns down here? Long guns? Do you see 15 a need for any of those guys? 16 ??: [inaudible] ...we'll always get along in 17 here... 18 MW: What about when we start bringing the Road 19 Warriors down here? We going to have 20 enough guns and everything for them? Do we 21 need more guns down here? 22 Various: [inaudible conversation] ...should be 23 enough at the Detachment... 24 MW: He seems to think we've got enough guns. 25 ER: Well, they're here anyhow Mark.
1031 MW: Okay, if we need 'em we can access them? 2 ER: Yup. 3 MW: Okay, that's great. And I'll wait to hear 4 from you about the chopper. 5 ER: I'm E.D.O. this week so I'm available 6 twenty-four hours anyhow. 7 Background: [loud indistinct noises] 8 MW: Okay. And just so you know, Johnny's going 9 to be the dayshift guy, and ah - Dale 10 Linton's going to replace him at 19:00 11 hours, on-scene duty officer. Here. 12 Incident Command. 13 ER: Right. 14 MW: Okay Boss. So we'll wait to hear from you. 15 ER: Okay Mark. 16 MW: Bye. 17 ER: Bye. 18 19 End of Conversation 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And that's your voice on that 25 transcript?
1041 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the voice of the other person is 3 Ed Robertson, Inspector Ed Robertson? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I would ask that that transcript 6 be marked the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1098, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1098: Transcript of Mobile Command 10 Unit Logger tape number 1, 11 track 1, disc 1 of 3. Mark 12 Wright and Inspector Ed 13 Robertson, 10:42 hours. Sept. 14 05/'95. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And if we could just -- I've some 18 questions about this particular transcript, Inspector 19 Wright. By this time, you -- on the first page of the 20 transcript, you indicate to Inspector Robertson: 21 "We have a TRU team in here now." 22 And so by 10:42 on the morning of 23 September 5th, the TRU team had been asked to attend in 24 the area? 25 A: I believe so, yes.
1051 Q: And where were they stationed? 2 A: Pinery Park, and I believe Korosec 3 dealt with that. 4 Q: Korosec dealt with that? And then 5 the -- there's a reference on page 2 to Serpent Mound? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And back on September 5th, what did 8 you know about Serpent Mound and the situation at Serpent 9 Mound? 10 A: Well, as I understood it, as I 11 recall, is that there was a -- was a land claim issue as 12 well. However, it was a -- as I recall, it was a lease 13 issue that the First Nations people had some property and 14 they -- initially had some property and it -- that it 15 was a Park of some kind, as I recall. 16 And, in any event, there was a -- a -- a 17 peaceful entry onto the Park by the First Nations people 18 because of -- of a disagreement between them and the -- 19 the Park owners, and I can't remember who they are, with 20 respect to that lease. 21 So there was -- the difference here, as 22 far as I'm concerned, and I -- and I -- I believe I make 23 that clear is that Serpent Mound, to my understanding, 24 was a clear understanding of it was a -- some sort of 25 lease or rent deal and that the First Nations people had
1061 -- were engaged in that lease deal and they were having 2 concerns between them and whomever held -- who -- whoever 3 else was interested in that lease situation. 4 So there was much more than colour of 5 right, if I can use that term. There was an agreement 6 and this was significantly, absolutely different in my 7 mind, and I think that's what Robertson was trying to 8 distinguish when he asked me that. 9 Q: Okay. Then there's an entry, they -- 10 an entry on that same page, page 2. 11 "At eleven o'clock this morning the MNR 12 and all their ministry levels are 13 meeting and they're going to get us an 14 injunction, because that's what we 15 want, we want a piece of paper." 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And that was what you wanted at that 18 point, an injunction? 19 A: Well, yes, and that's in reference to 20 what we've discussed here this morning with my 21 understanding of what was taking place based on what 22 we've read through the scribed notes. 23 The point I'd like to make, if I could, 24 sir, is that there's two (2) things going on here, as far 25 as I'm concerned. There's two (2) strings of a
1071 conversation. 2 The first conversation is Inspector 3 Robertson calls me and he wants to know -- I think we're 4 going to talk about a helicopter. But he wants to know 5 about what's happened because he's the duty officer and 6 he really hasn't got a handle on this and he wants a 7 briefing. 8 So that's what I'm doing, I'm giving him a 9 briefing about what it is that has taken place, where we 10 are and my understanding is, is that we're waiting for an 11 injunction that, in my mind, is imminent. And that when 12 we get that injunction, we're going to go back into the 13 Park and we're going to act on that injunction. 14 Q: And when you say you're going to go 15 back in the Park and act on the injunction, what did you 16 just mean by that when you said that? 17 A: What did I -- I -- I think I say in 18 here, if I can just have a moment, I think I say: 19 "Our intention is to go back in and 20 take the Park." 21 And prior to that, the sentence before 22 that is, is I'm talking about we want an injunction, we 23 want a piece -- they're going to get an injunction, we 24 want a piece of paper. 25 Because if you look to the meeting that
1081 happened just prior to this telephone conversation which 2 is at 9:25, I think is what it is, is that clearly that 3 I'm of the understanding, in my mind, that A) we're going 4 to get the injunction, B) that the Province has title to 5 that land. 6 And if we get the injunction that's a 7 court order and I anticipated that we were going to act 8 on that court order. So 'take the Park' meant to, in my 9 mind, go back into the Park and, acting on the 10 injunction, remove the people that were there unlawfully. 11 Q: Assuming -- 12 A: Assuming we got the injunction. 13 Q: And at the same time you had been 14 discussing, that morning, as well, the cohabitation plan? 15 A: Yes. But -- 16 Q: But this had nothing to do with the 17 cohabitation plan? 18 A: No, this is -- well that's -- that's 19 part 2 of this conversation, this is, Tell me what 20 happened, Mark? And I'm telling him what happened 21 because he wants -- he wants to be briefed because he's 22 the duty officer and he needs to know what's going on. 23 So I appreciate, in hindsight, that I was 24 perhaps moving at a greater speed than I should have with 25 respect to the information.
1091 And I -- I'm not so sure whether or not he 2 understood that we stopped at a certain point about, This 3 is the history, and now I'm moving on to what it is we're 4 going to need with respect to the helicopter, because, in 5 my mind, we stop right there where it says: 6 "John Carson, me and you know, right 7 now, about that. Better than -- we 8 haven't even got it out yet to 9 anybody." 10 And that's about the intelligence officers 11 because Bell, and I forget who was sent down to go and 12 have a look in the Park, came back. And when I say 'in 13 the Park' they walked -- my recollection is they walked 14 along the beach. 15 So in my mind that was in the Park but 16 obviously that -- that's incorrect, they were on the 17 beach at the top where the water is. 18 In any event, I'm telling him that this is 19 what we know and now we're getting in -- then he stops 20 the conversation and -- and we're into, well I've got 21 some .223's and some Wing Masters. And it's pretty clear 22 that I don't know what a Wing Master is because if you 23 listen to the tape I -- I make comment about Wing Master, 24 I'm not quite sure what that is. So now we're back into 25 the matter at hand.
1101 Q: Yeah. But I want to step back. When 2 you -- you indicate, We want a piece of paper and our 3 intention is to go back in and take that Park. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And you've just told me that -- told 6 the Commissioner, excuse me, that once you got an 7 injunction you were going to act on the injunction; that 8 was your understanding? 9 A: That was my understanding that we -- 10 an injunction is a court order that obligated us to act 11 on that court order and -- and we would act on the court 12 -- the court order. 13 Now certainly I understood that, you know, 14 that would be -- the court order would be in conjunction 15 with whatever Inspector Carson decided how we were going 16 to do that. 17 But I was editorializing, I guess, giving 18 the Reader's Digest version, as it were, as to what I 19 anticipated was going to happen. 20 Q: And at this point in time on 21 September 5th had you had any discussions with Inspector 22 Carson as to what would happen if you got an injunction 23 with respect to the Park? 24 A: Any specific -- 25 Q: Yes.
1111 A: I -- I don't recall but my sense was 2 that -- I mean it was quite obvious to me that that's 3 what the -- we were working on an injunction which is a 4 court order and once we got that then, you know, we -- we 5 would -- we would move on that court order; that was my 6 understanding. 7 Q: And then the -- now, you indicated 8 you didn't know what a Wing Master was. Did you 9 subsequently learn what a Wing -- 10 A: Well, he tells me -- yeah, right 11 after. Once he said, and I don't know where it is here, 12 but he goes -- 13 Q: He said -- 14 A: -- to Wing Master then he says 12 15 gauges, then -- then I'm aware of what he's talking 16 about. 17 Q: It's a -- it's shotgun? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Now, and the page 3 there's a 20 reference, after he talks about the submarine -- Sudbury 21 machine: 22 "No, no. See, I think, like, there's 23 like a real potential for one (1) of 24 our guys to get hit. Like -- like 25 we've -- we've -- as drastic as this
1121 sounds we planned and -- that event." 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And that's with respect to -- what -- 4 what are you referring to there? 5 A: Well, my -- what I'm referring to is 6 that if -- is Inspector Carson's efforts to get an 7 armoured personnel vehicle at the scene. And I was of 8 the understanding we wanted them there in the event one 9 (1) of our officers was wounded, that that vehicle would 10 be used to extract that wounded officer. 11 Q: And that's what you were thinking of, 12 in your mind, when you made that statement? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Then over on page 4 you're talking 15 about it being busy between four o'clock in the afternoon 16 and two o'clock in the morning, I take it? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And then: 19 "So what we would like to do, we'd like 20 to get our people back into the Park 21 prior to that before they start 22 moseying around and start bringing, you 23 know, people back -- start wandering 24 back into the Camp and we're really 25 uncomfortable sending our guys in there
1131 without somebody overhead?" 2 And what's that referring to? 3 A: Well, if you -- if -- if you look 4 back at the minutes at 9:25 I believe I actually say that 5 in that -- that things get active down there between 4:00 6 and 2:00. And that's based on my -- my experience with - 7 - with respect to the campers that were there all summer 8 and I believe that the -- that's where I was coming from 9 with respect to that. 10 In any event, now I'm trying to tell the 11 Inspector this refers specifically to that meeting with 12 Carson and the others about repopulating the Park. And 13 that -- 14 Q: So part of the cohabitation plan? 15 A: Yes. So now I'm moving into, Well, 16 you know, we want a helicopter here because we want to 17 put officers back in the Park and that goes to that 18 specific set of, you know, with Dennis saying to Korosec 19 about, Well, if you're going to take more people let me 20 know so I can -- 21 Q: No, no. We understand 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- that but -- 24 A: So -- so that's where I am with him 25 there is that, Look, we're going to -- we maybe going in
1141 and it would be really -- and you can hear the concern in 2 my voice when I start to go, 'Hmm,' to him, that he's 3 talking about there's a potential that we can't get a 4 helicopter here until later in the day. 5 And I'm trying to impress upon him that it 6 would be a really good thing if we could get it here 7 prior to 4:00. Because if we're going to do this, 8 repopulate the Park, then it would be much better that 9 that take place before four o'clock because that's when 10 things start to get active down there, in my experience. 11 And we would prefer a helicopter overhead because it -- 12 it deals with officer safety and we can see much better 13 what's going on. 14 Q: Okay. And then on page 5 there's a 15 reference: 16 "The ERT's in on .223; that's all." 17 And then Mark Wright: 18 "Yeah, we've got Stanley. Do we need 19 extra weaponry down here? Do you want 20 extra weapons? We're talking about 21 .223's and what, sir?" 22 And then he says: 23 "Wing Master." 24 Stanley is Sergeant Stan Korosec? 25 A: Right.
1151 Q: And the response back from Sergeant 2 Korosec is that you did not need any additional weaponry? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And then at the top of page 6, you 5 say: 6 "What about when we start bringing the 7 road warriors down here? Are we going 8 to have enough guns and everything for 9 them? Do we need more guns down here?" 10 What are road warriors? 11 A: Road warriors are a commonly referred 12 term describing officers. I mean, it was used back then 13 and it's still used today. 14 There's no connotation in that, other than 15 -- and I don't know where that originated from, but it's 16 a commonly referred term amongst police officers 17 referring to officers. 18 That's -- that's what that cona -- that's 19 what that term means. 20 Q: But -- 21 A: I -- I guess it's police talk, for 22 lack of a better term. 23 Q: But what I'm just trying to 24 understand is the ERT -- the plan that had been 25 developed, the Project Maple, called for four (4) ERT
1161 teams. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: 1 and 2 ERT, 3 and 6 ERT. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And that was the plan for -- with 6 respect to the Park? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Now, that was the plan when it was a 9 cohabitation plan? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: All right. But you had, at the this 12 point in time on September 5th -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- those four (4) ERT teams. 15 A: By ten o'clock in the morning, I 16 think we did, yes. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: I would agree with you, yes. 19 Q: And that represented sixty (60) -- 20 approximately sixty (60) officers; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Approximately -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- there's fifteen (15) per team, 25 approximately.
1171 A: Right. 2 Q: And what is -- what is the reference 3 to -- you've got sixty (60), the plan called for 4 approximately sixty (60), called for four (4) ERT teams-- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- what's the reference to, What 7 about when we start bringing the road warriors down here? 8 It seems to me that that means you're going to bring in 9 more officers. 10 A: Well, what -- what I meant by that, 11 sir, is that -- and if you go back to, again, the 12 minutes. Carson says, Plan to be here for a few days. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: So what's -- it would -- it was 15 appearing that we were going to be there for some time 16 and -- and I -- I anticipated that over -- you can't hold 17 that many people there indefinitely, at some point you 18 may have to rotate a considerable number of those people 19 out and replace them with more officers. 20 So I didn't know -- I was just -- I think 21 it's quite clear that I didn't think we needed any more 22 guns, but Korosec was the ERT indivi -- the ERT officer 23 in charge of that, so I deferred to him and said, Do you 24 think we need any and what happens when more officers 25 come in regards -- and what I meant by, in anticipation
1181 of a rotation of people later on. 2 Because a firearm -- a long gun would come 3 from a Detachment and it would come normally with that 4 cruiser. 5 But I didn't know where these people were 6 coming from, these potential replacements and I'm just -- 7 again, we're contingency planning here is, I guess, is 8 what we're doing. 9 So if Detachment A has sent a cruiser with 10 a couple of ERT officers in it with two (2) shotguns in 11 it, let's say, for example, and they come to the scene 12 and they're going to be replaced by other officers, does 13 that shotgun -- does that car -- those two (2) shotguns 14 and those two (2) officers, they go back to Detachment A. 15 Does that Detachment Commander, who's 16 going to send another car with two (2) other officers and 17 a cruiser, is he going to put two (2) other long guns in 18 that car or does he figure, well, there's already two (2) 19 long guns there, I don't need to send them, because 20 there's only a finite number of long guns at every 21 Detachment. 22 So it was, Do we need more guns in the -- 23 when the road warriors get here, if we're going to make 24 that turn and -- and Korosec is quickly running that over 25 and he says to me, Well, no, they'll -- they'll come with
1191 their guns and I report that to Robertson but he wants to 2 send the guns anyways and -- 3 Q: Well, he says, If you need them -- 4 you say -- he says, There here. 5 But what was a -- your understanding, 6 what's a .223? 7 A: It's a -- it's a rifle. 8 Q: A rifle. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: As opposed -- 11 A: I knew what that was. 12 Q: As opposed to a shotgun? 13 A: Yeah, long -- I mean, every OPP 14 Detachment has a -- a number of .223's, which is a rifle, 15 and shotguns, depending on the number of officers in that 16 Detachment. 17 And it's up to that particular officer to 18 decide, when they start their tour duty, whether or not 19 they want to bring, on their tour duty, a long gun be it 20 a -- a shotgun or a .223. And they don't have to bring 21 either if -- if they preferred not to. 22 Now, normally speaking an ERT officer 23 would bring one of those long guns because -- and -- and 24 -- because they would travel with their kit as well 25 because they're used for a number of different things.
1201 So -- and I believe that's what Korosec is 2 talking about is that, well, The cars will come with the 3 guns, but you'd have to ask him. But that's what was in 4 my mind, is if we're going to rotate the people out of 5 here, are we going to have the inventory to deal with 6 that. 7 Q: And the -- so the -- the reference to 8 Road Warriors is not to a particular type of officer? 9 A: No. No. 10 Q: And was the -- you can understand for 11 -- that when you read something like that and it 12 indicates that, What about when we start bringing the 13 Road Warriors down here -- 14 A: Right. 15 Q: -- that it has a connotation and I'm 16 just trying to understand, did -- were you referring to a 17 TRU team, were you referring to another type of officer? 18 A: No. And -- and -- no, number one. 19 Number two, it was not meant in any disrespectful way, in 20 any way, shape or form, it was -- I was talking to Stan, 21 he's a fellow police officer, and it's -- I'm engaging in 22 talk that, I guess a police sort of slang, that he, I'm 23 sure, and I have no -- well, that I was content that he 24 understood exactly what I meant and it's commonly used 25 all the time, that term.
1211 So there was no sinister connotation to 2 the term Road Warriors. But I appreciate exactly what 3 you mean and how there could be that misunderstanding. 4 Q: Now, if I could, you had a second -- 5 or actually a third, I guess, conversation on the morning 6 of September 5th with Ed Robertson and if you want to 7 turn to Tab 21, you will see a conversation that's on 8 September the 5th, 1995 that's -- indicates it's at -- 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me for a 13 moment, Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And at the -- if I could take you 20 back, actually, to Exhibit P-1098. The -- and at the top 21 of page 2 there's a reference: 22 "MNR -- of course, we're acting on 23 behalf of MNR, they're the landlords." 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And what was that in reference to,
1221 Inspector Wright? 2 A: That was in reference to, in my mind, 3 that, again, that the Province of Ontario had lawful 4 ownership of it, that MNR were the landlord on behalf of 5 the Province of Ontario. And that when I say we were 6 acting on behalf of MNR, what I meant was, they were the 7 complainant. 8 They were, in my mind, the lawful -- they 9 had -- the Province, and through them, had lawful 10 ownership of that property and that we were acting -- 11 they were the complainant in this issue. 12 Q: But as police officers, your job was 13 to enforce the law? 14 A: Absolutely. 15 Q: Keep the peace. 16 A: Absolutely. 17 Q: And as peace officers, is it not fair 18 to say that you don't act on behalf of anyone? 19 A: I guess act on behalf is perhaps a 20 poor term to explain that, but when -- when I get a call, 21 whatever rank I happen to be and somebody says, my 22 tractor was stolen or my bicycle was stolen or -- or 23 whatever, and -- and then they're the complainant and I'm 24 conducting an investigation to return their property to 25 them, if I can use that analogy.
1231 So, you know, am I working for them? 2 That's all I meant was that, in my mind, these people 3 were the complainant, they had -- again, from the 4 information that I was given through Inspector Carson and 5 the information that I learned through Chief Bressette 6 via Inspector Carson, was that they had lawful ownership, 7 that being the Province, and that those individuals that 8 were on there were on there unlawfully. 9 That being the case, we were still going 10 to get an in -- we weren't going to do anything until we 11 got an injunction. 12 Q: Okay. If I could ask you to turn to 13 Tab 21. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Sorry. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 20 21 Region 2 22 Mark Wright and Inspector Ed Robertson 23 September 5, 1995 11:10 hrs 24 Mobile Command Unit - Logger Tape #1 Track 1 Disc 1 of 3 25
1241 [CP = Command Post] 2 [ER = Inspector Ed Robertson] 3 [MW Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 4 5 CP: Command Post. Archibald. 6 ER: Inspector Carson please. 7 CP: Okay, he's in a closed door meeting right 8 now. Could I take a message or - could I 9 advise him who's calling? 10 ER: Is Mark Wright available? 11 Archibald: He's in the meeting too. 12 ER: Its Inspector Robertson. 13 Archibald: Oh, okay. Just one moment please. 14 Pause 15 MW: Inspector? 16 ER: Yup. 17 MW: Hi Its Mark. 18 ER: I've hopefully got an MNR A-Star on its 19 way from Sudbury. 20 MW: What's the ETA Boss? 21 ER: Don't know yet. I think - ahhh - my 22 judgment would suggest that he could be 23 there in two. 24 MW: Two hours? 25 ER: Don't know though about pilot availability
1251 at this moment. But if he were to take off 2 in the next half hour, he could be there 3 in 2 to 3. O'clock. 4 MW: Two to three o-clock in the afternoon? 5 ER: Yeah. 6 MW: What is that - a helicopter? 7 ER: Yes. It's the same as ours Mark. Except 8 one engine instead of two. 9 MW: Okay. And its an MNR helicopter? 10 ER: Yes. Not a commercial operator. 11 MW: Ahh - helicopter. 12 ER: DND has some flight restrictions on the - 13 MW: [laughs] Yeah? 14 ER: Okay? Don't have anything in our 15 neighbourhood. 16 MW: Okay. 17 ER: Umm - tell Johnny I've already put the bug 18 in their ear to find - this is following 19 through with a conversation I had with 20 Chris Coles the other day. 21 MW: Mmhmm. 22 ER: A couple of armoured personnel carriers 23 out of Meaford. 24 MW: Yeah. 25 ER: Okay?
1261 MW: Couple? 2 ER: Yeah, well I'm working on it. 3 MW: Yeah. Well I think John - London PD has 4 access to those and I think he's got those 5 kind of set for GM - from GM Diesel with a 6 - I think there's some PD guys that are 7 trained, I think John's looked into that- 8 as a matter of fact - I'm positive he has. 9 ER: Okay. Well, I've gone through the DND to 10 get - you know - theirs. 11 MW: Okay. So what we're talking - 14:00 hours? 12 ER: Yeah or maybe sooner Bud. I'll let you 13 know as soon as I find out. 14 MW: Okay. All right. What number are you at? 15 There? 16 ER: 705 - 17 MW: Hang on a sec. 705, yeah? 18 ER: 329-7586. 19 MW: 7568. Okay. 20 ER: Thanks. 21 MW: Okay thanks. Bye 22 ER: Bye. 23 24 End of Conversation 25
1271 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And I would ask that this transcript 5 of this telephone conversation at approximately 11:10 6 hours on September 5th be marked as the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1099, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1099: Transcript of Mobile Command 10 Unit Logger Tape number 1, 11 track 1, disc 1 of 3, Mark 12 Wright and Inspector Ed 13 Robertson, 11:10 hours. Sept. 14 05/'95. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And the reference to the personnel 18 carriers insofar as the London Police -- London PD refers 19 to London Police Department? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that -- the fact that John Carson 22 was attempting to get the armoured personnel carriers 23 from the London Police Department through them from GM 24 Diesel? 25 A: Right. And -- and I didn't know that
1281 Inspector Robertson had been working on that. I didn't 2 know he was aware that that was something that we were 3 interested in. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: But clearly he -- he did know that. 6 Q: And then this -- if I could take you 7 back to the scribe notes, it would appear from this 8 conversation P-1099 that you were in this meeting, the 9 briefing meeting that started at, according to the scribe 10 note, 11:04, page 31? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then at 11:15, that you go back 13 in and report that Inspector Robertson called and stated 14 that the MNR chopper would be in here around 14:00 hours. 15 "Inspector to call back. Detective 16 Sergeant Richardson should call a 17 Standard Chopper as his backup." 18 And what's that refer to? 19 A: Well, it would -- my take on that is 20 I've -- I've now briefed the -- the people at this 21 meeting that Inspector Robertson has told me that we can 22 anticipate a chopper and that -- that Richardson, even 23 though that's the case, that Richardson is to call 24 Standard Chopper as a backup and I'm -- I'm not sure what 25 "Standard Chopper" means but I -- I recall Inspector
1291 Carson wanted a helicopter there. 2 And my recollection is that at some point 3 we had two (2) helicopters there for a very short period 4 of time. And then we -- we didn't need two (2) but at 5 one -- I think at one point -- because eventually the OPP 6 helicopter shows up so there's an MNR helicopter and then 7 sometime later an OPP helicopter shows up and my 8 recollection is the MNR helicopter leaves. 9 So we were pretty intent, Inspector Carson 10 was pretty intent on wanting a helicopter there so we 11 could have an over -- overhead view. 12 Q: And there was an MNR -- it was the 13 MNR helicopter that was there on September 5th and 6th; 14 is that your recollection? 15 A: Yes, I think the -- the OPP chopper 16 shows up later. 17 Q: Then at this meeting, this briefing 18 at 11:04, the -- Inspector -- you report to the group, on 19 page 32, with respect to the earlier advice you had 20 received about the Brampton chopper and the Mounties' 21 chopper and then Richardson advises that Standard Chopper 22 in Chatham would be willing to help out, so that must be 23 a company? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And -- but Carson -- Inspector Carson
1301 advised the Blockade Committee is meeting for a consensus 2 on the injunction and he advised the group that they were 3 meeting at that time? 4 A: What page are you on, sir? Sorry. 5 Q: Page 32. 6 A: 32? 7 Q: Before the entry of 11:15. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And then at the bottom of the page 10 there's an entry 11:17 hours: 11 "A discussion regarding negotiations 12 took place [and then] -- negotiators 13 [excuse me] took place. Sergeant 14 Seltzer once again stated that the same 15 person should negotiate all the way 16 through. Inspector Carson agreed. 17 Sergeant Seltzer -- Seltzer suggested 18 talking to Vinnie George. 19 Inspector Carson, that he is hesitant 20 to do this because Vince George has to 21 live here with these people. Sergeant 22 Seltzer also talked to Lorne Smith, he 23 is not sure whether he wants to 24 negotiate because he also lives in the 25 area, does not want to cause concerns
1311 for his family. Detective Sergeant 2 Wright suggested bringing in Sergeant 3 Marg Eve. John Carson inquires to Mark 4 Wright about ERT. Mark Wright advises 5 that Number 2 District ERT just 6 arrived." 7 And then at the top of the next page: 8 "Brad Seltzer suggested to John Carson 9 that we use a Native negotiator in the 10 negotiations." 11 A: If I -- if I may, sir, just -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- to make a point here. I know we 14 were talking about -- when we were talking about -- I'm 15 in conversation with Korosec and I -- I say to him, Are 16 we going to have enough guns for when the Road Warriors 17 get here and we were discussing that all four (4) ERT 18 teams were there. 19 Well, it would appear by 11:17 hours that 20 2 District had just got there. 2 District ERT had just 21 arrived. So perhaps and I'm just putting this together 22 now actually while we're talking, but that seems to flow 23 with my conversation with Korosec. 24 So it would not appear that everybody's 25 there yet as of 11:17 hours.
1321 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: And I -- I may be of some assistance 6 to you, sir. In that Two District ERT officers would be 7 coming from all over Two District. So some of them might 8 be getting there a little earlier than others. 9 So that first day, it's not quite -- it 10 wouldn't be the whole teams would be there. They'd brief 11 and debrief and we'd flip them over. That first day 12 would be more of a trickle as opposed to them all there 13 at once, I think. 14 Q: Okay. I understand that but what I'm 15 having some difficulty with in and I appreciate it's a 16 long time for you too. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: But if I could take you back to Tab - 19 - page 18 -- 20 A: In? 21 Q: -- in the scribed notes, let's go 22 back to page 14. 23 A: 14. 24 Q: We'll see at 1:27 in the morning of 25 September -- of September the 5th, "Mark Wright briefing
1331 1 and 2 ERT in presence of John Carson." 2 So that 1 and 2 ERT's there. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: It may be that Number Two ERT is 5 simply arriving back at the police station at the Forest 6 Detachment after coming off the road. 7 A: That may be it. Yeah. 8 Q: But it appeared to me from that entry 9 and other entries, Inspector Wright, that -- and the fact 10 Number 1 and Number 2 ERT are -- is already there and had 11 been in -- on the -- out in the field all night. 12 A: Sir, I would agree with you that I 13 must be mistaken and that's probably the more likelihood 14 is that it's taking until this particular time for these 15 individuals to come back off of being on the roadblocks. 16 Q: Okay. That's what I took when I read 17 that before. The -- anyway if we could just go to the 18 top of the page: 19 "Brad Seltzer --" 20 On page 33: 21 "Brad Seltzer suggested to John Carson 22 that we use a Native negotiator in the 23 negotiations. Inspector Carson advised 24 Sergeant Seltzer to contact Vince 25 George.
1341 Inspector Carson brought up concerns 2 about Vince George. He doesn't want 3 him to have to suffer after we leave. 4 John Carson stated that we need Mike 5 Hudson but he's on vacation. John 6 Carson would like initial contact with 7 Vince George and then switch to 8 negotiator who's decided to bring 9 Sergeant Eve in on September 6th -- 06 10 Sept. 95 to have Marg Eve and Vince 11 George and then change Vince George to 12 Mike Hudson. 13 Brad Seltzer to check with Vince 14 George. John Carson expresses to Brad 15 Seltzer if Vince George is 16 uncomfortable helping us, we respect 17 that. 18 Negotiate discussion of whether Vince 19 George should be used as the negotiator 20 or someone to help us behind the scene 21 identifying people. 22 Sergeant Seltzer to make arrangements 23 with communication centre to find 24 someone else to work for her tonight." 25 And the 'her' there is Marg Eve?
1351 A: Right. 2 Q: "Inspector Carson to call London PD 3 in regards to getting two (2) [it 4 should be LAV's light armoured 5 vehicles?]." 6 Do you recall independently of this note, 7 the discussion about -- at this time in the morning of 8 September 5th, about the negotiators? 9 A: Do I recall this conversation? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Vaguely. 12 Q: And when Sergeant Seltzer suggested 13 that you use a Native negotiator, was there any -- do you 14 recall what discussion if any, there was around that and 15 apart from Vince George? 16 A: Not -- no, I don't. 17 Q: Do you recall -- did anyone suggest 18 that you go outside the local community to get some -- to 19 get a negotiator, an Aboriginal negotiator? 20 A: I don't recall that. But Seltzer 21 would -- would be aware of the officers who were trained 22 negotiators. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: So I think he would have a sense of 25 who -- if there were First Nations officers that were
1361 trained as negotiators. 2 Q: Okay. Then, were you present at 3 11:42 hours, approximately, if you turn to page (sic) 4 1134 when Sergeant Skinner attends and discusses with 5 Inspector Carson the TRU team's role? 6 A: No, I don't recall that. 7 Q: Okay. And Sergeant Skinner is 8 Sergeant Kent Skinner? 9 A: He was a staff sergeant. 10 Q: A staff sergeant? 11 A: I think he was, yes. 12 Q: And he was the leader of the TRU 13 team? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the TRU team in this case, his 16 TRU -- the TRU team came from London? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Then at 12:12, there's an entry: 19 "Detective Sergeant Mark Wright, 20 Sergeant Brad Seltzer and Les 21 Kobayashi, MNR, gone to the Park." 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And if we could go back to your notes 24 for a moment, at page 74 there -- there's a note at the 25 top of the page about the injunction, then a note:
1371 "Arrange for chopper to attend. [then] 2 arrangements made for arrest warrants 3 for those parties responsible for 4 criminal activities". 5 And they indicate four (4) names. That 6 was what you were working on, partly in the morning? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then 11:15 hours: 9 "MNR chopper obtained to be here at 10 14:00 hours". 11 And then there's a reference to 12:12: 12 "Attend at West entrance of Park." 13 And so you left the command post at 14 approximately 12:12 -- twelve (12) minutes after 12:00 on 15 September the 5th? 16 A: It appears so, yes. 17 Q: And can you tell us what you recall, 18 what you did after leaving the command post with respect 19 to attending at the Park? 20 A: I believed we used my plain car. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Unmarked -- an unmarked car and the 23 three (3) of us drove down to the sandy parking lot area. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: And stood at the fence line there and
1381 attempted to get the attention of the people who were 2 occupying the Park. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: Without much success. I think, as I 5 recall, a vehicle came by with a number -- two (2) 6 individuals in it and there was some conversation there 7 and there were some people, I re -- I recall that there 8 were people in and around that area and I was attempting 9 to find a -- Mr. Glen George, as I recall. 10 I think that's what my notes say, yes. 11 Because I had just finished a conversation with him back 12 when we had the incident with the fatal motor vehicle 13 accident, so I had somewhat of a relationship with him. 14 My -- my job there wasn't to enter into 15 negotiations. My job was to make the introduction of 16 Seltzer. Seltzer was the negotiator, but it -- we never 17 got to that there. 18 Q: So you attended in the area around 19 the sandy parking lot and went up to the fence? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And we have a picture which is part 22 of Exhibit -- the Tab 25. It's part of Exhibit P-912, 23 Inquiry document 1000662. 24 And the -- according to the caption on the 25 photograph, it identifies you on the right.
1391 Do you recognize yourself in that picture? 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: And you are the person on the right? 4 A: Yes, I am. 5 Q: And beside you is who? 6 A: Mr. Les Kobayashi. 7 Q: And not in the picture but also 8 present was Sergeant Seltzer? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And if we go to the next page -- Tab 11 26, Exhibit P-913, Inquiry Document 2001840, there's 12 another photograph... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And someone's written on this but on 17 the lefthand side is a -- an officer and do you recognize 18 that officer? 19 A: Sergeant Seltzer. 20 Q: And the car that's visible in the 21 picture in front of you, do you recall seeing this 22 particular car? 23 A: Do I recall seeing -- I -- I recall 24 that there was a car down there. 25 Q: And can you tell us -- can you -- do
1401 you recall in relation to the -- in the sandy parking lot 2 there's an entrance to the Park on the south side of the 3 sandy parking lot? Do you recall that? 4 A: South side of the sandy parking lot? 5 Q: If -- if you're -- along the fence 6 line there's a, you know where the -- do you recall where 7 the -- the camp store was? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: And there was a road that -- do you 10 recall where the -- if there was a turnstile along the 11 fence line? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And in relation to that turnstile, 14 where were you standing? 15 A: I would be -- I was north of that 16 turnstile. 17 Q: North of the turnstile? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you can -- you were along the 20 fence line, the fence that's -- you could see it just -- 21 A: Yeah, I'm leaning on it. 22 Q: -- in the background? So can you 23 tell us everything that you could remember and use your 24 notes if necessary, as to what happened? 25 A: Well again, we didn't meet much
1411 success there. A number of -- I have in my notebooks 2 that a number of Natives were there but nobody would 3 engage in conversation. 4 And what -- I mean there was some 5 conversation there but nothing -- no real dialogue with 6 respect to getting Glen George there opening up any kind 7 of conversation. 8 Q: Well what do you recall of the 9 discussion that was there? 10 A: Well my -- my -- 11 Q: If any. 12 A: Sorry. My recollection is -- is when 13 that car came back by -- my recollection is that one (1) 14 of the people in that vehicle swore in my general 15 direction. 16 And I also recall people saying -- there 17 were people in and around the general store. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: And which would have been to my south 20 -- southeast from there. 21 Q: So on your right hand side? 22 A: Right. And they were over near the 23 general store and there was some comments coming from 24 that area. But nobody wanted to engage in any meaningful 25 conversation with respect to getting Glen George or
1421 attempting to find out what it was -- what was their 2 intention or -- or -- or making notice. 3 Because we -- Kobayashi was down there yet 4 again to try and make -- give formal notice as I recall 5 with respect to the trespass because we hadn't actually 6 handed them that document that Dennis had worked on the 7 night before. 8 And Mr. Kobayashi and Vince George had 9 tried to serve the previous evening. 10 Q: And how long do you think -- how long 11 did it take you to drive from Forest to the sandy parking 12 lot outside the Provincial Park? 13 A: Maybe fifteen (15) minutes or so. 14 Q: Okay. And there's a communication 15 that you had with the command post and if you would turn 16 to Tab 22 and this is at approximately 12:49 on September 17 the 5th. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 20 21 Region 3 22 Mark Wright and Lima 2 23 September 5, 1995 12:49 hours 24 Chatham Communication Centre Logger Tape #0143 Track 12 25 Disc 12 of 20
1431 [MW = Mark Wright] 2 [L2 = Lima 2] 3 [L1 = Lima 1] 4 5 MW: L2 from Wright. 6 L2 L2. Go ahead. 7 MW: I.ve passed on the Command Centre. I.ve 8 passed the message on that I want to speak 9 to Glen George and I think they passed it 10 on and I want to sit here and wait until 11 somebody comes back to talk to us for a 12 while. Let the boss know. 13 L2: You like me to pass that on to L1. 14 MW: [inaudible]. 10-4 15 L2: Lima 2 to Lima One. Copy that. 16 MW: 10-4 L2. 17 End of Conversation 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And I would ask that we mark this 23 transcript as the next exhibit. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1100, Your Honour. 25
1441 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1100: Transcript of Chatham 2 Communication Centre Logger 3 tape number 0143, track 12, 4 disc 12 of 20 , Mark Wright 5 and LIMA 2, 12:49 hrs., 6 Sept. 05/'95. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And the -- you're communicating at 10 this stage with L2 which is LIMA 2 located at the 11 Tactical Operations Centre in the Ministry of Natural 12 Resources parking lot? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And can you just tell us why you 15 would be communicating with L -- the Tactical Operations 16 Centre at the MNR parking lot as opposed to directly with 17 the command post in Forest? 18 A: I'm sure I was using Seltzer's 19 portable because I wasn't carrying a radio and the 20 communications down there were and still are notoriously 21 bad. And so it's easier to go from where I am -- the -- 22 the comms would go from me to LIMA 2 which was just down 23 the road and then he would piggyback that message back to 24 the command post. And that was -- because the 25 communications were so bad there that was necessary to
1451 do. 2 Q: And so the message you passed on at 3 12:49 is that the -- as it indicates in P-1100 that 4 you've asked for Glen George and you're waiting? 5 A: Yes, and I -- I felt it important 6 that the command post know what we were doing and that 7 that was what was taking place. 8 Q: And you wait for sometime. and if I 9 could ask you to turn to Tab 23 this is a communication, 10 radio transmission, I take it -- or a communication at 11 13:20 hours at 1:20 p.m. on September the 5th? 12 A: Correct. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 Region 4 17 Mark Wright and Lima 1 18 September 5, 1995 13:20 hours 19 Chatham Communication Centre Logger Tape #0143 Track 12 20 Disc 12 of 20 21 22 [L1 = Lima One] 23 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 24 [L2 = Lima Two] 25
1461 L1: Go ahead. This is Lima One. 2 MW: Okay. Let John know. This isn't working. 3 I'm gonna give it a try at CFB Ipperwash - 4 the main gate there. See if someone will 5 talk to me there. Talk to someone there. 6 This isn't working at all down here. 7 L2: 10-4 message passed on. 8 MW: 10-4. 9 End of Conversation 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now, that says -- the transcript 15 says, L-2 10-4 message passed on but it appears that you 16 were communicating directly with LIMA 1? 17 A: I'm not sure. It sounds to me like 18 that's Stan Korosec that I'm talking to so -- and he 19 would have been in Lima 1 so perhaps the message bounced 20 directly to LIMA 1. 21 Q: And so perhaps we'll -- I'll listen 22 to that again over the lunch break, but I would ask that 23 this transcript be marked the next exhibit? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1101, Your Honour. 25
1471 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1101: Transcript of Chatham 2 Communication Centre Logger 3 tape number 0143, track 12, 4 disc 12 of 20, Mark Wright 5 and LIMA 1, 13:20 hrs. Sept. 6 05/'95. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And then perhaps you then -- what did 10 you do after this? 11 A: I believe I went -- I went up to the 12 main gate at CFB Ipperwash. 13 Q: This might be an appropriate time for 14 the lunch break, sir? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 We'll break now for lunch. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 18 adjourned until 1:30. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 12:13 p.m 21 --- Upon resuming at 1:36 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed. Please be seated. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon. Thank
1481 you, Commissioner. Good afternoon -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Inspector Wright. 5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: I'd like to just go back a moment to 9 the discussion that you had at September 5th down at the 10 Park. And do you recall today what you said to the 11 individuals you were -- to whom you were trying to speak 12 to? 13 Did somebody come up to you? How did you 14 go about this when you went down there? 15 A: I went to the fence -- 16 Q: Fence. 17 A: -- just like is illustrated in this 18 picture and waited -- I recall calling over the people 19 near the -- the store, the General Store. And our mere 20 presence there attracted attention and then this vehicle 21 came over and I -- I don't recall whether or not it -- 22 I'm sure I told these people that I would like to speak 23 to Glen George as well but -- 24 Q: To who -- to Glen George, yeah? 25 A: Yeah, but generally speaking we
1491 attempted to talk to anybody who went by or I did try to 2 talk to anybody who went by or who was -- was in earshot. 3 Q: So did you -- can you help us with 4 what you -- 5 A: I just -- all I recall is what I have 6 in my notes is -- with respect to, you know, can you get 7 Glen George? 8 Q: And I note that Sergeant Seltzer is 9 dressed in his complete police uniform? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was there any thought given as to 12 whether or not it was a good idea to have a police 13 officer in his complete uniform go down as a "negotiator" 14 quote/unquote? 15 A: I know there was some talk about that 16 when Sergeant Eve and I went down there later on. Prior 17 to actually Sergeant Eve and I going down, I don't recall 18 if that conversation, that -- that type of conversation 19 took place when we went down. 20 Q: Now, after -- sometime after, 21 according to Exhibit P-1101, the time that you made the 22 communication that you were going to go up to the main 23 gate was it about -- it was 13:20. So that's 1:20. 24 You were down at the Park for 25 approximately how long? How long were you down there?
1501 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Well, as I recall -- 4 Q: You left Forest at 12:15? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: You thought it took you about fifteen 7 (15) minutes to get down there. You made the one (1) 8 communication at 12:50 -- 12:49 according to P-1100 and 9 then you made the second communication at P-1101 -- I 10 mean at 13:20. 11 So you were there for about fifteen (15) 12 minutes; is that -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I understand it -- just to clear 15 up something -- that when you radioed L1 or L2 the other 16 one might pick it up depending on the circumstances, the 17 atmospheric circumstances? 18 A: Yes, that's correct. Yes. 19 Q: That -- even though the transmissions 20 were bad down there if you radioed LIMA 1 in Forest LIMA 21 2 might here it and vice versa? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: So can you tell us what happened when 24 you went up to the main gate? 25 A: I went up with Seltzer and Kobayashi
1511 and, eventually, Mr. Manning showed up at the gate there. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And I believe there was a picture of 4 that as well taken in the press with -- me with Mr. 5 Manning and at -- at the main gate. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: And I had a conversation with Mr. 8 Manning at the gate. 9 Q: Yes? Can you tell us about the 10 conversation? 11 A: Yes. I told him that we'd like -- 12 and I'm referring to my notebook entries at this time. 13 That -- I told him that we would like to 14 open a dialogue and discuss the situation. He said that 15 he was happy that his people had their ancient burial 16 ground. 17 Q: And now I asked you this morning if 18 anyone had mentioned burial ground on the 5th and 6th and 19 I take it when you responded to me you had overlooked 20 this entry? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Yes. I asked if they were organized 24 and he said they were not organized and what I meant by 25 that was, do you have a spokesperson. And --
1521 Q: Did you tell him that? 2 A: Well, I -- I know -- I'm not sure. I 3 -- I don't recollect but I -- I know that he understood 4 because he said he wasn't comfortable doing that and they 5 were going to -- he's going to speak to the Elders before 6 he could get back to me. 7 And I'm jumping ahead of it but -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- he -- eventually he told me that 10 he'd talk to us, try again tomorrow I think at three 11 o'clock. 12 Q: Okay. Well you carry on and tell us 13 what you -- 14 A: So -- and part of my conversation is 15 in my notes and they appear in the scribe notes and as 16 well there's additional comment about what he said to me 17 when I'm speaking to Mr. McCabe that I relate to him. 18 The essence of that conversation in the telephone call 19 that I had with McCabe later on in the evening. 20 But from memory, it was that -- that they 21 -- the people on the Park were there unlawfully, that the 22 -- there was going to be an injunction and that they 23 would have an opportunity if they want. 24 My understanding was they would have -- 25 they would be entitled to come to that injunction hearing
1531 to give their side of the story. And that he replied to 2 me that he wasn't interested or they weren't interested, 3 something along those lines because it was white man's 4 court. 5 And I recall being concerned that I 6 thought perhaps that the press overhead that particular 7 part of it. And that as far as I was -- 8 Q: Why were you so concerned about that? 9 A: Pardon me? 10 Q: Why were you concerned about that? 11 A: Well, I just -- I was having 12 conversation with a person who I consider to be a 13 principle and I just didn't think it was in the best 14 interest of anybody that it -- that the press have this 15 that that could be reported. 16 This was, you know, what I took to be 17 somewhat of a private communication and I just didn't 18 think we should -- this isn't something that should be 19 debated over the airways as to what I was talking to this 20 individual about. 21 Q: The whole conversation you're 22 referring to? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you. Yes? 25 A: So -- and in addition I -- I made it
1541 clear to them again that they were -- they were there 2 unlawfully and the Province of Ontario was the -- the 3 lawful property owners and that they -- that they would 4 have to leave or they should leave. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: And that's my recollection without 7 going to the scribe notes and the -- the conversation 8 with McCabe, because that's contemporaneous with that 9 incident and my comments are in those documents as well. 10 Q: And we have a -- and we've put on the 11 screen Inquiry Document 2001840 and do you appear in this 12 photograph? 13 A: Yes. That's me on the far left-hand 14 side with -- that's a -- with the OPP letters on the back 15 of my t-shirt. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And -- 18 Q: And -- 19 A: -- that's Mr. Kobayashi beside me. 20 Q: And that's Mr. Manning? 21 A: Yes. I think that's a t-shirt -- 22 it's very difficult to see that picture from this angle 23 but I -- I think that's a t-shirt that I'm wearing. 24 Q: And you didn't have that on when the 25 picture we looked at a few moments ago down by the -- in
1551 the sandy parking lot. 2 A: I think what you'll find is I've 3 taken off my vest. 4 Q: Okay. If you look at -- 5 A: My bulletproof vest. 6 Q: -- Exhibit 912, you'll see that you 7 do have a vest on in that, and so you had your t-shirt 8 underneath the vest? 9 A: Yes. I'm sure that's what's going on 10 there. I was -- the picture down at the Park was -- I 11 have my vest on and now I don't have my vest on. 12 Q: Okay. And how long -- perhaps we 13 could mark this page, Commissioner, we'll have to print 14 one off, as the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: The document number 16 again, sir? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-20011840. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 84 -- 1840. 20 THE REGISTRAR: 11840. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now -- 22 THE REGISTRAR: That is 1102, Your 23 Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1102: Document Number 2001840.
1561 Sarnia Observer article, 2 Stoney Pointers Sympathetic 3 with Park Occupiers, Sept. 4 06/'95. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Now, how long did you speak to Mr. 8 Manning for? 9 A: My recollection is we weren't there 10 too awful long with Mr. Manning. 11 Q: Okay. And the -- what did you do 12 after -- how was -- how was it left with Mr. Manning? 13 A: It was left that he told me that we 14 should come back at three o'clock tomorrow, and I took 15 that to mean three o'clock tomorrow down at the fence 16 line at the Provincial Park as opposed to the Camp. 17 Q: Okay, and what did you then do? 18 A: I left and in route, as I recall, I 19 called the command post and told them that we had made 20 contact and I went back to Forest and I reported to 21 Inspector Carson at the command post. 22 Q: And at Tab 24, Commissioner, there is 23 a copy of a communication at 13:40 hours on September 5th 24 and I'll just -- it's a short communication. 25
1571 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Here, I'll have to 4 start again, Commissioner, I'm sorry. 5 6 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 7 8 Region 5 9 Mark Wright and Lima 1 10 September 5, 1995 13:40 hrs. 11 Chatham Communication Centre Logger Tape #0143 Track 12 12 Disc 12 of 20 13 14 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 15 [L1 = Lima One] 16 17 MW: Lima One from Sergeant Wright be advised 18 we're 10-19 Command Post. 19 L1: 10-4. Thanks. 20 MW: Lima One from Sergeant Wright. Be advised 21 we're 10-19 to Command. We'll be there in 22 about ten or so. We made contact. 23 L1: 10-4. I'll pass that along. 24 MW: 10-4 25 End of Conversation
1581 2 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And that was the communication to the 6 command post at approximately 10:40 -- I mean at 13:40? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And I would ask that we mark that the 9 next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1103, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1103: Transcript of Chatham 13 Communication Centre Logger 14 tape number 143, track 12, 15 disc 12 of 20, Mark Wright 16 and LIMA 1, 13:40 hrs. Sept. 17 05/'95. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And you arrived at the command post, 21 according to your notes, at 13:54 and according to the 22 scribe notes at 13:54, did you take the time for your 23 notes, from the scribe note, Mr. Wright? 24 A: I suspect I did. 25 Q: And the -- at the entry -- it's page
1591 35 at 13:54 on September 5th the: 2 "Detective Sergeant Wright arrived back 3 from the Park. He met with Bert 4 Manning. Detective Sergeant Wright 5 advised that they are very 6 disorganized, very uncomfortable, want 7 blockades to be removed. Detective 8 Sergeant Wright made it very clear that 9 they're trespassing. He advised that 10 he met Bert Manning at CFB Ipperwash. 11 Feels that Manning is not comfortable 12 with this. Inspector Carson states 13 waiting for the helicopter to arrive 14 makes plans from there. Make patrols of 15 Outer Drive, crew Highway 21 properly. 16 Detective Sergeant Wright stated that 17 he would -- told Bert Manning that we 18 weren't going away. Manning stated he 19 wanted the blockades removed. Wright 20 told him definitely not. Mark Wright 21 advised that tactically it is easy to 22 get in the Park at the canteen area." 23 And does that -- was that what you 24 reported back to Inspector Carson? 25 A: Yes.
1601 Q: And I note that you don't refer there 2 about going back at the next day but did you report that 3 too? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And the reference to, "it's easy to 6 get into the Park at the canteen area"; what's that a 7 reference to? 8 A: Well, it's -- 9 Q: The Park store? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what's that in reference to? 12 A: That's -- strictly again I'm just 13 providing the information to the Incident Commander that 14 again there was always that issue of repopulating. So 15 you know when I was down there with Kobayashi and Seltzer 16 I made that observation and I reported it back to the 17 Incident Commander when I returned. 18 Q: And I note that -- and that's with 19 respect to the repopulating, the cohabitation theory is 20 that what that refers to? 21 A: Right, right. 22 Q: And I note that there's no note, in 23 the scribe note at least, with respect to the burial 24 ground. Did you advise Inspector Carson of what Mr. 25 Manning said about the burial ground?
1611 A: I'm -- I know it's -- I don't have 2 any independent recollection of that, sir. I -- I don't 3 have any independent recollection. 4 Q: And then at the top of page 16 5 there's an entry: 6 "Inspector Carson discussion with Mark 7 Wright finding out if anyone has 8 armoured vehicle experience." 9 A: Page? 10 Q: That's page 36, sir. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you then proceed to determine 13 if anyone did have that kind of experience? 14 A: Yes, that's what I was tasked with by 15 the inspector so I set out to find that out for him. 16 Q: And then there's a note that at 17 14:08: 18 "Inspector Carson discussing visit to 19 the Park with Sergeant Seltzer. 20 Sergeant Seltzer advises that he 21 concurs with Detective Sergeant 22 Wright's observations that the First 23 Nations people are very disorganized 24 and nervous. He states that we 25 shouldn't do anything until we know
1621 what's involved." 2 Were you present for that discussion? 3 A: Yes, I believe I was. 4 Q: And the -- what did you under -- take 5 from what -- what did you understand from what Sergeant 6 Seltzer was saying? 7 A: Just the -- the literal 8 interpretation of that that, again disorganized, in that 9 they didn't have a spokesperson and that -- that it 10 wasn't prudent to do anything and I took that to mean 11 with regards to repopulation of the Park by -- or 12 cohabitation until we know what's involved. 13 Q: And John Carson also advised you and 14 -- and Sergeant Seltzer that the Blockade was still 15 meeting? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Then there's a briefing; it appears 18 on page 37. Is this part of a briefing that starts at 19 4:17 and runs down to 4:27? I'm just trying to 20 understand. 21 A: Yes, that's what it appears to me, 22 sir. We're -- we're -- yes, that's what it appears to 23 me. 24 Q: And there's a... 25
1631 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I would ask you to turn at Tab 17 4 of your material. I mean Tab 19, excuse me. 5 And at Tab 19 is a copy of Exhibit P-427 6 which is the handwritten scribe notes. And if you could 7 turn to page 432 it's Inquiry Document 1000152. 8 A: Page what, sir, pardon me? 9 Q: Page 432. And you'll see a 10 handwritten note and I had asked you about -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- the reporting about the burial 13 ground and the handwritten note says 1:54, there's a 14 note: 15 "Met with Burke. 16 And then MW very disorganized, very 17 uncomfortable. Advised they are happy 18 to have burial ground. Made it clear 19 they are trespassing, that we are 20 seeking an injunction. [something] 21 blocks aren't --" 22 A: Road -- roadblocks 23 Q: "-- roadblocks aren't going 24 anywhere." 25 This is Burke -- I take it Burke is --
1641 they describe as Bert has been translated into Burke. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you. Now, you also, on page 4 37, report, as well in the fourth paragraph, that you 5 advised them: 6 "Detective Sergeant Wright restated 7 that he advised the First Nations 8 occupants that they were trespassing. 9 They know they're illegally in the 10 Park. 11 They want the roadblocks removed. 12 Advised that we will be back tomorrow 13 at noon. 14 Elders were not there, had to go to CFB 15 Ipperwash to meet with Bert Manning." 16 And that -- this entry relates to your 17 meeting with Bert Manning? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Then the -- at the bottom of page 37 20 there's an entry at 15:07: 21 "Inspector Carson advised Ron Fox is 22 sitting on the Blockade Committee. 23 Sounds like they're going to get an 24 emergency injunction. 25 Les Kobayashi advised they are having
1651 someone searching the title. 2 John Carson states we're on the right 3 track with some concern notice wasn't 4 accepted. Ron Fox is dealing with the 5 legal issues, checking over press 6 releases, don't have paperwork for the 7 injunction yet. 8 Detective Sergeant Wright advises 9 Inspector Carson that he told the First 10 Nations people that they are 11 trespassing and that it's his 12 understanding that the MNR are seeking 13 an injunction. 14 Press may have heard him say that. Les 15 Kobayashi states their intention is to 16 get an injunction. They have done some 17 research and the burial site is at 18 Kettle Point, not at the Park. 19 MNR has had it researched." 20 Do you recall that discussion? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: And do you recall anything else about 23 that discussion? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Then in the -- if I could ask you to
1661 go to page 438 at Tab 19. 2 A: 438? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And there's a reference in the 6 handwritten notes that is a bit -- is different than in 7 the scribe notes: 8 "Ron Fox sitting on Committee. Sounds 9 like they're going to get an emergency 10 order." 11 Then KOS, I take it's Kobayashi: 12 "Having someone search title. 13 JC: Premiers, no different treatment 14 from anybody else. We're okay, on 15 right track. Concern notice wasn't 16 accepted. 17 Ron Fox dealing with legal issues. 18 Checking over press release. Don't 19 have paperwork for injunction." 20 Right? "Going," I think it says. 21 What is -- what discussion, if any, do you 22 recall with respect to the comment, "Premier, no 23 different to treatment than anybody else." 24 A: I don't recall that. 25 Q: You don't recall that?
1671 A: I don't recall that. 2 Q: And did anyone else -- do you -- do 3 you recall who else was at this briefing? It's not clear 4 from the notes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: No, I'm not -- I'm not sure who's 9 there either. 10 Q: Okay. And do you recall anyone -- 11 anyone making a comment or making any -- having any 12 reaction to the reference to the Premier? 13 A: I don't remember that comment about 14 the Premier so I don't remember anything corresponding to 15 that. 16 Q: And the -- there's a note: 17 "Inspector Carson advises that --" 18 Excuse me. Before that Les Kobayashi 19 states: 20 "Their intention is to get an 21 injunction and they have some research 22 and the burial site is at Kettle 23 Point." 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1681 Q: And actually the note's at page 439, 2 just to assist: 3 "Intent is they're to get [something] 4 injunction. Burial site. Obtained 5 three (3) [something]. The only sacred 6 site is Kettle Point. Had it 7 researched. Confirmed chopper needed." 8 And the burial site discussion, do you 9 recall anything beyond what's in the scribe note? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Now then: 12 "Inspector Carson advises that the 13 talks with GM Diesel is off. Detective 14 Sergeant Wright suggested contacting 15 Petawa for -- Petawawa for military 16 tanks. Inspector Carson stated if the 17 risk was bad enough we will go to the 18 Military. Risk factors haven't 19 escalated yet. Have to leave options 20 open." 21 A: Right. 22 Q: So at this point he thought that 23 nothing would be forthcoming from GM Diesel and he didn't 24 -- from this note do you have any recollection of the 25 discussion beyond what's in this note?
1691 A: No, other than I don't recall ever 2 using the word, "tank," and although I have no 3 independent recollection of that I would find that I just 4 -- I just -- I have -- I can't see myself using that term 5 because I knew we were after armoured personnel vehicles. 6 Q: Okay. Actually in the handwritten 7 note at 4:39 the comment for you is just simply, 8 Petawawa. 9 Then the -- the note indicates: 10 "Ron Fox, Deputy Minister's Office 11 updating Blockade Committee. Called to 12 update Inspector Carson." 13 There's a bit of that call in this note 14 already, but did -- did the group that was in the command 15 trailer, could they hear John Carson when he was speaking 16 to Ron Fox, to your recollection? Could you hear him? 17 A: I don't -- I don't recollect hearing 18 Inspector Carson having a conversation with Inspector 19 Fox, no. 20 Q: And did -- beyond what's in the 21 scribe note, do you recall Inspector Carson saying 22 anything else about the conversation with Ron Fox? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you recall him making any comments 25 about the group that was meeting in Toronto?
1701 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Do you recall him saying anything 6 about people being on a testosterone high? 7 A: Who? 8 Q: John Carson, reporting from Ron Fox? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Then... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: At page 40 -- it appears that 15 starting at 16:45 there's another briefing and at page 40 16 there's an entry: 17 "Ed Vervoort, MNR advises Dan Elliott 18 is meeting again tomorrow. Seems to be 19 moving for an injunction as soon as 20 possible." 21 Do you see that entry? 22 A: Yes, I do, sir. 23 Q: And the -- do you recall that -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- report being given?
1711 A: No. 2 Q: And then at the bottom of the page 3 there's a reference: 4 "Detective Sergeant Wright advised that 5 members have been briefed. Also press 6 release has been sent out and Mark 7 Wright talked to Inspector Carson." 8 A: Robertson. 9 Q: Robertson, excuse me. And that's 10 dealing with some -- the military vehicles. 11 And then there's a note: 12 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 13 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 14 Premier. There is to be a press 15 release by the Solicitor General 16 stating that this is not an Indian 17 issue, it is an MNR and a Provincial 18 issue." 19 Do you recall that being discussed in your 20 meeting? 21 A: No, I do not. 22 Q: And then: 23 "John Carson advised the next meeting 24 is to be held at 18:15 hours before the 25 new crowd comes in."
1721 Then at 18:07 there's a note that you 2 report the helicopter's in the air, that's at 41. 3 A: Right, correct. 4 Q: And the -- there's a reference as 5 well: 6 "Detective Sergeant Wright states 7 helicopter is up in the air with 8 Detective Constable Speck and Constable 9 Evans. Also states that Inspector 10 Robertson is getting their ERT members, 11 [quote] 'Nomex' [close quote] 12 underwear. He also has a list of 13 Indian speaking OPP officers, if 14 they're required." 15 And the -- do you have any recollection of 16 this discussion with Inspector Robertson? 17 A: I remember the -- the Nomex underwear 18 part of it. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: It's fire retardant gear. 21 Q: And anything else? 22 A: No, I don't. I remember -- I have an 23 independent recollection of that, but I don't remember 24 anything else about that conversation. 25 Q: And the -- on the next page, there's
1731 a reference to the third paragraph from the bottom: 2 "Inspector Carson wants people with 3 night vision glasses to be out and 4 around Outer Drive to get a sense for 5 what's going on in the area. 6 Detective Sergeant Wright suggests that 7 eight (8) officers be put at Highway 21 8 as a fear First Nations be bolder 9 tonight. 10 Inspector Carson stated that if the 11 First Nations get lippy, don't take too 12 much. If they become pushy, arrest 13 them -- arrested them and get them out 14 of there." 15 And do you recall what was being discussed 16 at this point? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. But you had -- 19 A: I don't take issue with the fact that 20 I said that, but I just -- I don't recall it. 21 Q: Then, there's an entry at the bottom 22 that -- the last paragraph. 23 "Staff Sergeant Dennis advise Sergeant 24 Skinner on the flow of paperwork for 25 his TRU team members. Sergeant Skinner
1741 states that he has ten (10) guys 2 staying at Pinery with ERT team 3 members. 4 Inspector Carson asks Sergeant Skinner 5 if he brought the video printer, he 6 stated he did not. Inspector Carson 7 requested that someone go and get it 8 tonight and bring it to the office. 9 Sergeant Skinner is to attend command 10 post meeting. Advised members that 11 Court injunction is moving along. 12 Advised members to keep tonight quiet, 13 keep an eye on checkpoints and advise 14 locations -- logistics what your 15 locations are." 16 But if you turn to the Tab 19, Exhib -- 17 Exhibit 427, the handwritten scribe notes, the part -- 18 A: On page? 19 Q: Excuse me, 450. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: There's an entry that corresponds to 22 this entry but it has some more information. 23 "If someone can get it [its JC] if 24 someone can get it do it tonight 25 [that's the video printer]. Skinner be
1751 part of command team. Heat from 2 political side made strong comments in 3 the House. Court injunction moving 4 along. Keep tonight quiet. Keep on 5 checkpoints. Wherever you are, let 6 logistics know." 7 And does that assist in -- do you have any 8 recollection of the comment being made: 9 "Heat from political side, made strong 10 comments in the House." 11 A: No, I don't have any recollection of 12 that. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Specifically. 15 Q: Okay. Do you have any -- when you 16 say "specifically" do you have any -- 17 A: Well, I -- I was aware that there was 18 -- I -- I was aware, as a result of our meeting at the 19 command post, that there was some kind of infor -- there 20 was information being flowing back and Carson was -- 21 Inspector Carson was keeping us up to date and the -- the 22 details are in the scribed notes. 23 So, you know, I was aware that that was 24 going on but as to the details as to, you know, who was 25 concerned and the political pressure and -- and all those
1761 specifics, I don't have a recollection of who was 2 concerned and why they were concerned because it didn't 3 concern me. 4 Q: That wasn't -- you've explained 5 before, that wasn't your -- your concern. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Now, if we go to September 5th at 8 seven o'clock, 19:00 hours on page 55 -- on page 44 of 9 the scribe notes, 426. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's a note: 12 "Inspector Linton meeting with Trevor 13 Richardson and Mark Wright briefing on 14 current members notes taken by 15 Inspector Linton of scene." 16 And then it appears that you go off duty 17 at or about that time? 18 A: Well I don't go -- I don't -- I guess 19 it depends on what you mean by off duty. 20 Q: Okay. What happens afterwards on 21 that evening? 22 A: With -- with respect to this incident 23 I really don't have anything to do with this anymore. I 24 -- my recollection is I -- I left there -- the command 25 post shortly after because I was basically done.
1771 There was a night shift in there and I was 2 -- I was in visiting with the people at the Detachment, 3 Forest Detachment. And sometime after that I left and I 4 went to my -- my house and got a change of clothes and 5 visited quickly with my family, because I didn't bring 6 enough clothes with me. 7 And I turned around and I went back and I 8 spent the evening at -- I had a room at Forest Golf and 9 Country Club. And I worked into the early morning hours 10 on my other duties that aren't related to -- as a Acting 11 Detective Staff Sergeant unrelated to Ipperwash. 12 Q: Oh, I see. So that you -- you 13 stopped at around this time -- around seven o'clock with 14 respect to this particular matter but you continued to 15 work on your other duties -- 16 A: Right. 17 Q: -- they were still there. 18 A: Right. Right. And I can't tell you 19 what time it was I left Forest Detachment. 20 Q: That explains, there's an entry on 21 your notebook at the top of page 76: 22 "03:00, off duty". 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And so you worked til 3:00 in the 25 morning?
1781 A: Right. 2 Q: Okay. And that related to matters 3 unrelated to -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Now, the -- the first entry that 6 there is in the scribe notes on September the 6th... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: You appear in the scribe notes at 11 16:34 and in your handwritten notes -- 12 A: Pardon me, sir. I believe it's 13 06:34. 14 Q: 6 -- 06:34, excuse me. And your -- 15 and your handwritten notes shows that you went on duty at 16 06:30? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And now, the first entry is, on page 25 47:
1791 "Mark Wright and Stan Korosec and John 2 Carson meeting with Inspector Linton. 3 Briefing. Three (3) vehicles damaged 4 in Army Camp Road. Fire. They backed 5 off. Five (5) night glasses were 6 distributed. Constable Parks of 50-100 7 rounds of auto fire. Back hoe and dump 8 trucks running. Chris Martin, activity 9 all night. Males, females, children, 10 very little action at kiosk." 11 Do you recall this briefing? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: No. I believe my recollection is as 16 a result of having looked at these minutes in preparation 17 for my attendance at the Inquiry. 18 Q: And do you recall anything else over 19 and above -- does this -- does looking at the notes help 20 refresh your memory? 21 A: I don't remember anything other than 22 -- I mean, I'm sure this happened, I'm not taking issue 23 with that, but I don't remember anything in addition to 24 that and there's nothing in my notes that I'm aware of, 25 that -- that I make note of with respect to that.
1801 Q: Were you advised that the re -- from 2 whom the -- who made the report of the gunfire? 3 A: Was I advised -- 4 Q: Who made the report to Inspector 5 Linton? 6 A: Well, I -- I know it was Parks. I 7 just don't know if I know that as a result of my 8 preparation or an independent recollection from the time. 9 Q: Okay. There's a note on page 47 at 10 23:43: 11 "Constable Parks, radio message of 12 large amounts of automatic gunfire back 13 in army camp. Inspector Linton, can 14 you (Wade Jacklin) confirm what they 15 mean, automatic? Constable Parks 16 reply, yeah. Fully automatic, one (1) 17 firearm, 50-100 rounds. Constable 18 Parks advised it's a way back in the 19 camp. 24:14 at checkpoint C." 20 I take it that Constable Park -- that 21 means that Constable Park was at checkpoint "C"? 22 A: That's what I take it to be. 23 Q: And was that reported at the morning 24 meeting that whatever this was, what was reported as 25 automatic gunfire, was a way back in the camp?
1811 A: That's my feeling that that's -- 2 that's one (1) and the same. 3 Q: Yes, but were you told in the morning 4 that it was a way back in the camp? 5 A: Hmm. 6 Q: Does that entry assist? 7 A: I -- I certainly am aware of that 8 now -- 9 Q: Now. 10 A: -- but I just -- I can't -- I can't 11 make the distinction between what I knew then and what I 12 know now as a result of what I've read. 13 Q: Okay. And did anyone mention to you 14 at the briefing in the morning that the incident where 15 the cruisers got damaged was in the sandy parking lot, 16 not on Army Camp Road? 17 A: I don't -- I don't recall that and I 18 don't think there were three (3) vehicles, either. 19 Q: Well, it says on the top of the pack 20 -- next page: 21 "Cruisers damaged [hyphen] -three (3) 22 vehicles." 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Did anyone mention to you about an 25 incident involving a cruiser hitting a picnic table in
1821 the sandy parking lot on the evening of September 5th? 2 A: No. I -- I know I -- the first time 3 I heard of that, as I recall, is listening to the 4 Inquiry. I wasn't aware of that. 5 Q: You weren't aware of that before? 6 A: No. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Then there's a note in your 11 handwritten notes: 12 "Post brief. Oncoming. Debrief. 13 Outgoing." 14 And that refers to the briefing and 15 debriefing of the ERT teams? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And if you look at page 48 there's an 18 entry at 7:14, Mark Wright to John Carson: 19 "Explained map and picnic tables 20 blocked the end of Army Camp Road. 21 Mark Wright assigned to attend scene 22 and video the scene and return. Keep 1 23 and 2 ERT on standby. Les Kobayashi to 24 arrange for a truck in case tables have 25 to be removed as it is not on park lawn
1831 -- land; it's road access." 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And what did you do as a result? 4 Firstly, how did you learn about the picnic tables in the 5 sandy parking lot? 6 A: I -- I think we got that from the 7 checkpoint system that was down there; that's my 8 recollection. 9 Q: And what did you do? 10 A: I did as I was told. I went down to 11 the scene and -- of where the picnic tables were and made 12 a quick count of the picnic tables, and I think I drew a 13 quick diagram, and then I came back. 14 I don't recall -- I know this says I was 15 assigned to attend scene and video. What that would mean 16 would be that -- I mean I wouldn't video it, and Ident 17 officer would attend with me and he would video it, if 18 that were to take place, but I don't recall that -- I 19 don't recall an Ident officer being with me nor do I 20 recall the scene being videotaped, so. 21 Q: Okay. And so what do you recall 22 seeing when you went to the sandy parking lot? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1841 A: My recollection is, again, there was 2 a dozen or so picnic tables there and I believe there 3 were some individuals out there. But I think the -- the 4 scribe notes refer to I come back and make that report at 5 7:50 that there's about twelve (12) tables out there, 6 some tents -- two (2) tents and two (2) children/ 7 teenagers. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And so I -- that's the -- that's the 10 report that I make to him. And there's a note here, it 11 says: 12 "Make sure Constable Evans is there 13 videotaping everything." 14 So I don't know if that was done. 15 Q: And Constable Evans was the 16 Identification officer? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And so when you went down to the 19 scene you saw twelve (12) tables, two (2) tents, and two 20 (2) what you identify as children and teenagers there? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And where, in relation to the 23 roadway, were the picnic tables that you can re -- can 24 you recall today? 25 A: No.
1851 Q: And then what did you do? 2 A: I -- I can -- what I can tell you is 3 they -- they were beyond the fence line, I just can't 4 recall, you know, there was a number of them there, I 5 don't know if they were all on the sandy parking lot or 6 some of them were onto the roadway. 7 Q: But -- 8 A: My fuzzy recollection is that they 9 were on -- they weren't on the roadway proper. 10 Q: Not on Army Camp Road? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: So you're distinguishing between the 13 sandy parking lot or the sand area that runs north from 14 Army Camp -- the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 15 Parkway up to Lake Huron? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that's the area between the 18 western boundary of the Park and the boundary of the 19 cottages on the western side of the access road to Lake 20 Huron? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that's what we've called, at the 23 Inquiry, the sandy parking lot, that area? 24 A: Correct. Yes. 25 Q: And so the -- the picnic tables were
1861 not on Army Camp Road but were, in fact, in the sandy 2 parking lot? 3 A: That's my recollection, yes. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: The ones that I saw. 6 Q: The ones that you saw? And they were 7 outside the Park, on the west side of the Park? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And so what did you do? 10 A: Well, like I said, I reported that 11 back to Inspector Carson. 12 Q: And after that did you have any -- 13 play any role with respect to the picnic tables? 14 A: Did I have any specific role? Yes. 15 Q: Yes. Okay. What did you do? 16 A: Well, after Carson made some 17 decisions as a result of -- of those picnic tables being 18 there and I believe that just prior to -- there was a 19 number of officers that were staged and just prior to the 20 officers being told to go down there and remove the 21 picnic tables, I provided the opinion -- my opinion to 22 Inspector Carson that we should go ahead and -- and do 23 that. 24 Q: And do you attend -- when the 25 officers went down to remove the picnic --
1871 A: No. I -- I don't believe I did. I 2 don't have any recollection of being there. 3 Q: Okay. Now, on the morning of -- if I 4 could ask you to turn to Tab 28 in the book in front -- 5 the black book. 6 And this is a conversation between you and 7 Doug Babbitt on the morning of September the 6th. 8 And Commissioner, this is Tab 23 and P- 9 444A. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 Region 6 *Please note: found as 14 Exhibit P-444A TAB 22 "Doug 15 BABBITT and Mark WRIGHT" 16 17 Mark Wright - Sergeant Douglas Babbitt 18 September 6, 1995 08:16 hrs 19 Mobile Command Unit Logger Tape #3 Track 3 Disc 2 of 3 20 21 [CP = Command Post, Archibald] 22 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 23 24 [DB = Sergeant Doug Babbitt] 25
1881 CP: Command Post, Archibald. 2 3 DB: Hi Archibald. Is ah Carson around? 4 CP: Busy. 5 DB: He is eh? 6 CP: Yes. 7 DB: Okay, tell him to call me when he's done. 8 CP: Okay, err you Mark Wright's here if you 9 want. 10 DB: Well, yeah. He can pass on the message. 11 CP: Yeah? 12 DB: Yep. 13 CP: Really? 14 DB: Yea, he can. 15 CP: It can't be a very important message if 16 you're willing to give it to him. 17 DB: Well, you just start at the lowest rank 18 you can find, but you can't tell 19 somebody's who's the low rank. 20 CP: Oh I see. 21 DB: You work yourself from the top down. 22 CP: Oh okay. 23 DB: [laughs] 24 CP: Oh okay, hang on. 25 He'll tell you anyway.
1891 MW: Fire away. 2 DB: Hi. 3 MW: Hi. 4 DB: The Deputy Minister's office called from 5 Ministry of Natural Resources. 6 MW: Yeah. 7 DB: Upset that ah - it indicates that they've 8 applied for the injunction when as a fact 9 they haven't. 10 MW: Yeah. 11 DB: And they're meeting again at 9:30 this 12 morning to discuss that. 13 MW: Oh that - that very thing? 14 DB: That very thing - to see what they're 15 going to do if they are going to apply for 16 it and uh. 17 MW: Deputy Minister called who? 18 DB: Here. 19 MW: You?! 20 DB: No, not for me - to the MNR phone. 21 Seventy-six twelve seventy-two. His office 22 called. And ah - was - does not want us ah 23 stating that they've.... 24 MW: Hang on a sec, hang on a sec. How do we do 25 this?
1901 DB: ... applied for ... 2 MW: Hang on. 3 DB: Yup. 4 [Long Pause] 5 DB: [to background] I think it caught him off 6 guard. They aren't aware of that. 7 [Long Pause] 8 MW: Doug? 9 DB: Yeah. 10 MW: Sorry, we've only got one line in here. 11 DB: That's fine. 12 MW: Okay. So - their Deputy Minister called 13 their PIO guy - pissed 'cause the press 14 has got this thing about an injunction. 15 DB: Yep. 16 MW: How did you guys handle that? 17 DB: Well it - it.... 18 MW: It's not in our press releases. 19 DB: Daryl talked to him - well yeah but 20 yesterday ah. 21 MW: Yeah, I know. 22 DB: ...When the meeting was done we were told 23 that we could say that they were applying 24 for an affidavit. 25 MW: Um hum.
1911 DB: And we did say that. 2 MW: Um hum. 3 DB: Um but they just - they're of the opinion 4 that -ah they're still discussing it and 5 they have not even decided whether or not 6 they will apply for the affidavit. 7 MW: Oh Okay. So.... 8 DB: And they got a meeting this morning at 9 9:30 so now you know Daryl is - they said 10 to him that ah - that he says is back 11 peddling err whatever now or backtracking 12 and tryin' to ah- tiptoe around the - the 13 issue. 14 MW: Yeah. 15 DB: When the media start 'cause they're 16 calling saying when's the injunction 17 coming - when's the injunction coming? 18 MW: Yeah. 19 DB: Well, it hasn't even been applied for now. 20 MW: Yeah, yeah. 21 DB: Of course they told me that yesterday. 22 MW: Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing. 23 So we put the heat on those guys right? 24 DB: So. 25 MW: Right?!
1921 DB: Oh, I'm just passing on information. 2 MW: Yeah, no, I know but I'm just - don't - 3 you know - right? Opinion wise- 4 DB: Yep. 5 MW: That's not necessarily bad thing. 6 DB: So. 7 MW: That everybody's putting the heat on them 8 like shit or get off the pot! 9 DB: Yep. 10 MW: Right? 'Cause that's the only way we're 11 going to do it. 12 DB: Yep. 13 MW: And they knew about this - this isn't a 14 surprise. 15 DB: Well I know that. 16 MW: So. Okay. I'll pass it on to ah -"Sitcom" 17 that' what we're going... 18 DB: Okay. 19 MW: ...to call John from now okay. 20 DB: Okay. 21 MW: Okay, that's going to be his - ah handle. 22 DB: Sounds all right to me. 23 MW: [laughing] Okay. 24 DB: Well, see ya. 25 MW: Okay brother.
1931 DB: Bye. 2 End of conversation 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And the caller was identified as 8 Sergeant Doug Babbitt and that was Sergeant Doug -- Doug 9 Babbitt? 10 A: Yes, it was. 11 Q: And if I could take you to the second 12 page, page 186, and it appears -- I don't know if you 13 picked this up but when you said, "Deputy Minister called 14 who," you sounded surprised? 15 A: I was surprised that he called Doug. 16 Q: And then you found out he had called 17 the press person at -- 18 A: Right, the MNR -- 19 Q: At the MNR. 20 A: -- individual, not Doug. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Sergeant Babbitt. 23 Q: -- then if we could go to page 188, 24 and the numbers are at the bottom of the page -- 25 A: Yes.
1941 Q: -- Inspector Wright. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: About a third of the way down the 4 phrase -- the page, there's a comment attributed to you 5 and -- which came up on the tape: 6 "Well, that's not necessarily a bad 7 thing. So we put the heat on those 8 guys, right?" 9 And what were you referring to? 10 A: Well, I was expressing my personal 11 opinion, that from what I understood Sergeant Babbitt to 12 say, was that the MNR people appear to be backtracking on 13 whether or not they were going to get an injunction. 14 And -- and my opinion was that, well, if 15 we're here doing this policing action and the 16 understanding was that we aren't going to -- we aren't 17 going to do anything without an injunction then -- and -- 18 and my information was that they were always going to get 19 an injunction, that now if they weren't going to get an 20 injunction then what is it we were -- what -- where do we 21 go from there? 22 So I felt that, in my opinion, that if -- 23 if that -- from a personal point of view we needed the 24 injunction, so if that caused them concern and -- so that 25 they would go get an injunction that wasn't necessarily a
1951 bad thing. 2 Q: The media? You're referring to the 3 media? The reference just above that is to the media 4 reporting that it was an -- that -- that an injunction 5 was going to be applied for? 6 A: Yeah, but my term, because I don't 7 want to misconstrue this, but my term is that clearly I 8 meant that the heat was being put on MNR. 9 Q: Oh, yeah, I appreciate that. 10 A: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 11 Q: And then you say at the top that: 12 "Everybody's putting the heat on. Like 13 shit or get off the pot. 14 Yeah. 15 Right, because that's the only way 16 we're going to do it. 17 Yeah. 18 And they knew about this, this [and I 19 think it says on the tape] wasn't a 20 surprise." 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And when you refer to, "the only way 23 we're going to do it," what were you referring to? 24 A: I meant the only way we're going to - 25 - the only way would we -- we would go into the Park and
1961 deal with the occupiers with -- was under authority of an 2 injunction. 3 Q: And that's what you're referring to? 4 A: And that's exactly what I meant, 5 yeah. 6 Q: Okay. Now, if we could go back to 7 the scribe notes for a moment. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: The -- there's a reference to 08:15 12 hours, page 52: 13 "Mark Wright advises that the Mayor of 14 Bosanquet is here to see him. John 15 Carson advised Mark Wright to bring him 16 in." 17 And then the Mayor Fred Thomas goes in. 18 Did you sit in on this meeting? If the time on the call 19 that you had with Mark -- with Doug Babbitt at 8:16:47 20 hours is correct, then it would appear that, at least for 21 part of it, you were on the telephone with Sergeant 22 Babbitt. 23 A: I would agree. 24 Q: Not -- but do you have any 25 independent recollection of sitting in on this meeting?
1971 A: No. 2 Q: Because we've heard before that 3 sometimes some of the telephone times are a little bit 4 different than the actual times; there may be a lag of 5 five (5) or seven (7) minutes. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: But do you recall having looked at 8 this entry at 8:17, if you would take a moment and look 9 at it, if that gives you any -- helps you refresh your 10 memory. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And it runs over to page 53, ending at 15 8:35. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I recall being aware of this 20 information, I don't know if it's because he was telling 21 Mr. Thomas this, if that makes sense. 22 Q: When you say, "this information" -- 23 A: Well there's -- there's -- there's a 24 number of points in here that -- that I was aware of but 25 I don't know if -- I don't if it's because he's talking
1981 to Thomas and I'm aware of that. 2 I mean, I think I -- I had that inform -- 3 some time -- I'm having a difficult time -- 4 Q: I know that's it's difficult, so -- 5 A: -- yeah, trying to explain it to you, 6 is that I -- there are points in here that I know that I 7 was aware of, whether or not that was because Carson's 8 talking to Thomas and I'm privy to that, or I knew that 9 because Carson had told me prior to Thomas coming in 10 there. 11 I -- I just don't know. 12 Q: Why don't you tell us what, of these 13 points, you were aware of? 14 A: Okay. Well, I was certainly aware 15 that Chief Bressette wasn't supportive of the individuals 16 that had taken over the property. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: And I -- I knew that there was a 19 concern about the school buses going through there and 20 that we were letting them go through there. 21 And of course I knew about the damage to 22 our cruisers and I knew that there were about forty (40) 23 people in -- at one time in the Park. 24 And I knew we were working on an 25 injunction. And I'm not -- I don't recall being aware of
1991 the Mayor contacted -- no, that's between Thomas and 2 Beaubien. 3 I think Thomas is reporting that to 4 Carson, if I read that right. So I don't recall that or 5 remember that. I knew we were, like I said, we were -- 6 we were -- we wanted an injunction. 7 And I appreciated the -- the last 8 paragraph when it deals with why it was necessary and 9 preferable to have an injunction as opposed to not having 10 an injunction, in regards to dealing with the people in 11 the Park. 12 Q: And that's the reference to: 13 "John Carson advises once we get a 14 court order and we have the force of 15 the court that says, yes, the Province 16 owns the Park, we agree they shouldn't 17 be there." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Yes? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: And I knew about -- at the top of 24 page 53, when Carson is talking about, you know, the 25 damage. This is a -- he's talking about, obviously, the
2001 night before the night of the -- the early morning hours 2 of the 5th; that's what that's in relation to. So I 3 certainly knew that had taken place. 4 Q: The reference to: 5 "They moved in garbage containers right 6 up against the gate, piled wood and 7 started on fire and when officers 8 responded, ambushed our guys with 9 rocks?" 10 A: Right. And I knew that, obviously, 11 we had been -- we'd had people undercover camping in the 12 Park all summer. 13 And I knew that the -- the Mayor was 14 concerned about his wife. I think that's in here 15 somewhere, his -- his -- his home, so we had extra 16 patrols put in there. 17 Q: That's at 08:32? 18 A: Yes. I -- I remember that. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: So because I believe he delegated me 21 to look after that. Inspector Carson had me make sure 22 that there were extra patrols and, I think, maps of Mr. 23 Thomas' house sent out to the officers so they would know 24 where he lived. 25 And -- and this is the point at 8:27 when
2011 I spoke earlier that this is another part of my -- with 2 regards to the picnic tables: 3 "Wright advises that they were waiting 4 for the truck to arrive". 5 And on the next page, 08:42: 6 "Mark Wright -- Mark advises to send 7 the chopper and the truck in. Mark 8 Wright says give them the green light." 9 And that's in -- that's in regard to the 10 movement of the picnic tables on page 54. 11 Q: On page 54? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And so during the period of time that 14 you knew those things, but you don't know how you came to 15 find them. 16 A: No. Well, a number of them I learned 17 directly and I've given evidence to that, but -- 18 Q: Yes. But you still -- you don't know 19 if you were with Mayor -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- Thomas? Then there's an entry at 22 0:42 hours at -- excuse me, an entry at 8:27 hours, 23 although that may be an error. It may be 8:37 hours. 24 "Mark Wright advises they are waiting 25 for the truck to arrive and then Les
2021 Kobayashi states Deputy Minister 2 called. We're not going for an 3 injunction. Basically we are. They 4 want him to retract that position and I 5 just told Gerald to hang tight and 6 check with Pete. 7 John Carson, we are pursing that option 8 until some Court gives us the stamp. 9 We haven't got it." 10 And were you present for this discussion? 11 A: I don't recall if I was present, but 12 I knew -- I knew about this, shortly -- either at the 13 time -- 14 Q: You knew that from -- 15 A: -- or shortly thereafter. 16 Q: -- your conversation with -- with 17 Babbitt at -- Sergeant Babbitt at -- that was the deputy 18 Minister had called him -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- or called the press officer. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: But -- and -- but were you present 23 when John Carson told Les Kobayashi that the OPP wasn't 24 going to do anything without the injunction? 25 A: I don't know.
2031 Q: Okay. Then there's a reference at 2 the top of page 54, 8:42. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: There's a reference. 5 "JOHN CARSON: Have any idea of who is 6 coming in? Detective Sergeant Bell 7 states he does not. [then] John Carson 8 wants to put the ATV's out today. Does 9 not want any surprises. He wants to be 10 satisfied that we should or not do 11 something. When helicopter free, put 12 it back up with the video so we can 13 print out barricade locations. 14 Entrance solutions -- entrance 15 locations identify all barriers and 16 problems so we can be sure of them. 17 Film of each of entrance of each 18 building so we know what's around these 19 building. 20 Truck [8:42 as well] Truck has arrived. 21 Mark Wright says give them the green 22 light. Mark advises send the chopper 23 and the truck in. 24 JOHN CARSON: Get any arrests, get them 25 out quickly."
2041 And what was being contemplated, if you 2 can recall, at this point in time with respect to the 3 Park? 4 A: With respect to the Park? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Hmm. 7 Q: The reference is to the barricade 8 locations, entrance locations. 9 A: I don't know what that means. I 10 don't know what he was talking about, and I -- I have no 11 idea. 12 Q: And was there, on the morning of the 13 6th, was the -- 14 A: Pardon me. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: I'm sorry. This is in regards to -- 17 at the entrances to the Park, the occupiers had put some 18 cars and other barriers there and that's what this is in 19 relation to is that we wanted to go to the entrance 20 locations and he wanted to see what -- what was 21 barricading those entrances. 22 And -- and also film of the buildings; 23 that would be the maintenance building and the kiosk and 24 the pump house and the canteen. 25 Q: Yes?
2051 A: So that's -- that's what that's in 2 relation to as far as the barricade locations. 3 Q: And -- but why was that important? 4 A: Well, it establishes -- a -- a number 5 of things is; one is there's -- there's criminal offences 6 taking place there. If there's -- as I recall there were 7 trees being cut down so if you're using trees to 8 barricade locations then you have -- you have offences of 9 mischief with respect to those trees. 10 And you have break and enter of those 11 buildings and it's also important to know what -- what 12 structures are barricading those locations. And I -- I 13 suspect what that's about is -- again, you want to know 14 what -- what the state of affairs are with respect to 15 that property at all times. 16 Q: Just to know what's going on. 17 A: Well, yeah, you need to know -- you 18 need to be alive to what's going on in there. 19 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 20 the ATV's going down to the tactical operation centre? 21 A: I think it's just to provide another 22 means of transportation for the officers. They may have 23 -- they could run them along the beach from the edge of 24 the sandy parking lot in front of the cottages that run 25 along East Parkway or the officers could have used them
2061 from checkpoints delivering things back and forth. 2 They're just -- they're handy to have. 3 Q: Okay. And I note in your handwritten 4 notes there's an entry: 5 "09:38. Arrange for ATV's to go to TOC 6 at Ipperwash." 7 And then: 8 "Arrangements made for Evans and Speck 9 to fly." 10 And so you organized the ATV's going to -- 11 down to the Tactical Operations Centre? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And you made arrangements for 14 Constable Evans and Detective Constable Speck to go up in 15 the helicopter? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Then at page 57 there's an entry at 18 9:38 and this is what you referred to earlier I believe: 19 "Mark Wright having sixty (60) copies 20 of map of the Mayor's residence to give 21 to the ERT members. Copies will be 22 given to ERT members at briefing and 23 debriefings. 24 John Carson would like the ATV's down - 25 - to be down at the Park.
2071 Mark Wright to get the ATV's down 2 there." 3 And that refers to the Mayor's residence 4 and his concerns? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And then at the top of page 59 at 7 10:19 there was another briefing? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now it says: 10 "Briefing meeting to begin with 11 members." 12 And this -- is this the unit commanders or 13 does it refer to more than the unit commanders? 14 A: No, I think it just -- I think it 15 means those, what I referred to as unit commanders. But 16 I think what's going on is -- is Korosec is starting. 17 Q: Yeah. He's starting the -- the 18 briefing. 19 A: So -- so, yeah. 20 Q: Then on page 60 is part of this brief 21 -- briefing. There's an -- an entry attributed to you: 22 "Mark Wright advised K-9 coming up 23 going to talk to 2 and 3 District. 24 Have to have daytime and nighttime. 25 Could be staying here.
2081 John Carson, if we need them we want 2 them here. 3 Mark Wright advised to pack for a week. 4 Going to be put with the TRU team." 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And can you refer -- tell us what 7 that refers to? 8 A: Well, my recollection is that 9 Inspector Carson wanted the K-9 up there, so I'm telling 10 him that the K-9 -- my recollection is that I was 11 delegated to get the K-9 up there, so that's what I'm 12 reporting, is they're coming up. 13 And we're going to have one (1) working 14 day shift and one (1) -- one (1) having day shift and one 15 (1) working night-time and that they're going to stay 16 there; they're going to stay up at the Pinery with the 17 other officers? 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: And that they were told to pack for a 20 week because they were going to be there. 21 Q: And they -- you anticipated that you 22 would be there for a bit? 23 A: Those -- those would be the 24 instructions that Carson would have told me to tell those 25 officers.
2091 Q: And then over at the top of page 61-- 2 A: Yes? 3 Q: -- there's a reference: 4 "John Carson, things are moving on with 5 affidavit. [Then] Chief Coles and 6 Superintendent Parkin come up to see 7 how things are going." 8 Then a reference 11:02: 9 "Les Kobayashi advised that Ron Fox was 10 not aware of shots being fired last 11 night. John Carson to call Ron Fox 12 direct. Also affidavit going ahead." 13 And what did you understand that to be 14 referring to, the affidavit? 15 A: That they were doing whatever it was 16 they were doing in my naive state of affairs as it 17 regarded the injunction at that particular time; that 18 they were moving ahead with getting those documents in 19 order with respect to the injunction. 20 Q: And the information -- the entry: 21 "Les Kobayashi advised that Ron Fox was 22 not aware of shots being fired last 23 night. John Carson called Ron Fox 24 direct." 25 Were you surprised that Les Kobayashi was
2101 advising what Ron Fox knew or didn't know? 2 A: I -- I didn't know who Ron Fox was. 3 Q: Oh. 4 A: Because Ron Fox later became my -- 5 one of my supervisors or superior officers in -- in 6 Western Region but at that time I don't -- I don't think 7 he was part of Western Region. I know I talked to him at 8 some point during this episode and he introduced himself 9 to me and I him on a telephone conversation and that's 10 the first time I -- I ever spoke to Inspector Fox that I 11 can recall. 12 Q: And in fact the discussion with Ron 13 Fox is -- comes a little later, the call that you had 14 with Ron Fox. 15 But did anyone -- do you recall was there 16 any mention by anyone of the fact that Les Kobayashi was 17 talking about Ron Fox? His name had come up earlier in 18 the scribe notes. 19 A: Fox's? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then there's an entry that John 23 Carson calls and leaves a message on voice mail for Ron 24 Fox and then Ron Fox calls back. Were you present when 25 John Carson spoke to Ron Fox at 11:12?
2111 A: I don't have any recollection of that 2 telephone conversation or hearing that conversation. 3 Q: Then at Tab 29 there's a transcript. 4 This is already part of Exhibit 444A at Tab 34. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 7 8 Region 7 *Please n ote: found as Exhibit P-444A 9 Mark Wright and Ron Fox 10 TAB 34 11 September 6, 1995 12:06 hrs 12 "Ron FOX and Mark WRIGHT" 13 Mobile Command Unit Logger Tape #3 - Track 3 Disc 2 of 3 14 15 [CP = Command Post, Archibald] 16 [RF = Inspector Ron Fox] 17 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 18 19 CP: Command Post, Archibald. 20 RF Yeah, is John Carson there please? 21 CP: Just one moment. Can I advise him who's 22 calling sir? 23 RF: Yeah, its Inspector Ron Fox. 24 CP: Just a moment please. 25
2121 RF: Thanks. 2 [Pause] 3 MW: Inspector. 4 RF: Yeah. 5 MW: Hello, My name is ah - Mark Wright. I'm a 6 Sergeant down here and ah the Inspector 7 is busy with the Chief and ah - Tony 8 Parkin and ah - inspector from the 9 Mountie. 10 RF: Yeah, okay. 11 MW: They're having a comflap. Can I help yah? 12 RF: Yeah sure. Just ah - excuse me. 13 MW: Yeah go ahead answer the page. 14 RF: Ah yeah. If you could just pass onto John 15 that ah a chap ah ah Legal Services by the 16 name of Tim Egar - E-G-A-R. - will contact 17 him and it will be reference to um - an 18 affidavit. 19 MW: Yeah okay. I know about it. 20 RF: ?? important. About the order. 21 MW: Reference. 22 RF: So I mean I've talked to John about this 23 before as to who the best person would be 24 and he kind of knows that's coming but I 25 didn't have a name.
2131 MW: Yeah, what his - how do you spell his last 2 name again? 3 RF: Egar. E-A-G-E-R. 4 MW: Okay, just like it sounds. 5 RF: Yep. 6 MW: Okay! 7 RF: Can you give me a confirmation on 8 something? 9 MW: Sure. 10 RF: It came up in the middle of an Aboriginal 11 Issues meeting that I was at. 12 MW: Uhum. 13 RF: Just recently that - ah - apparently the 14 media were approached by two people from 15 ah the location and they had baseball bats 16 and ah our people were required to ah take 17 some action. 18 MW: Well, we - we heard that stuff too and ah 19 - they said they had tape just apparently 20 and we just watched the news and that's 21 not ah what happened nor have we got any - 22 any report like that at all from our 23 people on the ground. What we - what 24 happened was I don't know if John told you 25 about the picnic table episode this
2141 morning? 2 RF: Yep. 3 MW: Okay. So because we heard automatic fire 4 last night out there... 5 RF: Uhum. 6 MW: Ah we had ah two ERT teams go down and 7 remove the tables and one team provided 8 cover and they had ten officers with ah 9 rugers - umm - at shoulder arms there or 10 port arms I guess its called. 11 RF: Okay. 12 MW: But - ah - we heard that too but we didn't 13 ah as far as we know we didn't see it on 14 the news that ah nobody drew down with 15 rugers on these people because the 16 baseball bats were there so I don't know 17 where that is coming from. 18 RF: Okay. 19 MW: Now I don't know ah if ah the London 20 channel had it 'cause all we got was CKCO 21 but we certainly don't have it and we 22 checked with the guys out in the field and 23 they say no that didn't happen. 24 RF: Yep. Well the information this individual 25 had is that ah it was coming by way of
2151 CKCO. 2 MW: Yeah, well we just watched that news... 3 RF: Yeah. 4 MW: ...So that's - that's inappropriate. 5 RF: And see this is how the stories all ?? 6 there. 7 MW: Yep. 8 RF: And that's as I said to John that's my bid 9 job is to keep the political folks out of 10 the hair of the operational people so. 11 [phone ringing] 12 MW: That's right. 13 RF: That's great. One hundred percent sir. 14 MW: Okay. I'll ah - pass on the message to him 15 sir. 16 RF: Thanks. 17 MW: Okay. Bye bye. 18 RF: See you now. 19 End of Conversation 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And the conversation that you had 25 with Inspector Fox was -- at the time he asked about
2161 this, an apparent incident with respect to the media, and 2 at this time on -- at 12:06 on the afternoon of September 3 6th had you -- you appear to have heard of an allegation 4 that there was about the media? 5 A: Yes. As I recall -- I recall this 6 vaguely, that there was some allegation about people with 7 baseball bats and our officers pointing firearms at them 8 and that it had been caught on tape and that we had 9 watched the news and no such thing had taken place nor 10 had that been reported to us from -- at the command post 11 from any of the officers that were down there. 12 So, we -- we had already considered that 13 to be an inaccurate report. 14 Q: And you tell Inspector Fox that: 15 "Okay, so because we heard automatic 16 fire last night out there we had two 17 (2) ERT teams go down and remove the 18 tables and one (1) team provided cover 19 and they had ten (10) officers with 20 Rugers at shoulder arms there, or port 21 arms, I guess it's called." 22 And what do you mean by that, that it's 23 certainly not -- you didn't remove the picnic tables 24 because of the automatic gunfire. 25 A: No, no, no. What I meant -- I was
2171 trying to link, as best I could, as here's an allegation 2 that officers were pointing firearms at people, so I'm 3 saying, Well, okay, the -- the only display of firearms 4 that I know of is that we -- because we move -- there 5 were some picnic tables out there this morning. 6 We sent a whole bunch of officers down 7 there. Because of the automatic gunfire we heard the 8 night before, there was ten (10) officers who went down 9 with the other officers to remove the picnic tables and 10 they were armed with Rugers and they were at port arms. 11 So that's the only -- if there was any 12 kind of link at all with an officer pointing a firearm, 13 well, that was the only knowledge that I have of an 14 officer down there at that time with -- with a display of 15 a weapon. 16 Q: And what does it -- what did you mean 17 by the officers at shoulder arms or port arms? What does 18 that mean? 19 A: Port arms is a manner in which to 20 hold a long gun where the butt of the gun is down near 21 your -- one's hip and the point of the rifle, or the 22 business end of the rifle -- the gun is held upward so 23 the barrel end of the rifle crosses over one's clavicle 24 area. 25 So you're holding it against your chest
2181 with the top of the firearm pointing to the sky and the 2 butt pointing to the ground. 3 Q: So you -- it's a method of holding 4 the weapon so that it's diagonal across your chest? 5 A: Yes, that would have been a much 6 easier way to say it. 7 Q: And that's what you meant by -- 8 A: That's what I meant, yes. It's a 9 safe manner with which to hold a fire -- a gun of that 10 nature. 11 Q: Then when he says that -- you talk 12 about saying the -- watching the television and then you 13 make the comment, So that's -- that's inappropriate, and 14 what are you referring to there. 15 A: Well I should have that's inaccurate. 16 It has -- 17 Q: You're referring to the report? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And then Inspector Fox says: 20 "And that's, as I said to John, that's 21 my big job, is to keep the political 22 folks out of the hair of the 23 operational people. [then] 24 Wright, that's right." 25 And what did you understand him to mean
2191 when he said that to you? 2 A: Well, sir, I wasn't really sure what 3 he was talking about. As you can tell from this -- like 4 he wanted to speak to Carson and -- and what happened at 5 the command post was often was, when Inspector Carson 6 wasn't available, as we've seen is, the next thing was, 7 well, Mark Wright's here, and I commonly took those 8 calls. 9 So this happened to be one of those calls 10 again and I didn't know who Inspector Ron Fox was and I 11 didn't know what it was he was doing, but he was an 12 Inspector and he was asking me questions and I was going 13 to give him answers. 14 So I took from his questioning that he had 15 something to do with the -- the political side but I was 16 intent on just passing the information on to Carson as 17 accurately as I could. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. It's three 19 o'clock, almost three o'clock. It might be an 20 appropriate time to -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good time 22 for a break. We'll take an afternoon break. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25
2201 --- Upon recessing at 2:57 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 3:18 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Now, if we could go to the scribe 11 notes at 14:27, page 62, it says: 12 "Briefing. Mark Wright leading meeting 13 [et cetera]." 14 And that's -- you were leading the meeting 15 because Inspector Carson was engaged with Chief 16 Superintendent Coles? 17 A: Yes, and Parkin, I think. 18 Q: And -- and Superintendent Parkin? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And there's a reference the third 21 paragraph down: 22 "Stan Korosec, things aren't too bad 23 today. Chains down from Army Camp Road 24 to Ipperwash Road." 25 What's that refer to, do you know, chains
2211 down? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: Okay. Then at the bottom: 4 "Ed Vervoort, Les Kobayashi is waiting 5 for a copy of the new wording of the 6 affidavit. He will be signing it. 7 Trevor Richardson has given them 8 photographs to substantiate the 9 affidavit. May have it today. 10 Mark Wright, there will be a [I believe 11 that should be lag time instead leg 12 time]." 13 A: I agree. 14 Q: "Second party has to have an 15 opportunity to attend. Ed Vervoort 16 feels probably will be Friday. Concern 17 raised the longer it goes more may be 18 around. Dan Elliott, MNR, is to head 19 any complaints from people who are 20 calling. Need this information for 21 affidavit. One (1) complaint is 22 parents are calling kids in. Kids are 23 coming home from school feeling sick 24 because of the trauma of being stopped 25 all the time. Talked of re-routing the
2221 buses. Buses are not being stopped at 2 checkpoints." 3 And the -- Ed Vervoort attended this 4 meeting in place of Les Kobayashi? 5 A: Yes, that's my understanding. 6 Q: And you report that there will be lag 7 time. Where did you -- because of the need for service 8 how did you come to that understanding? 9 A: I think I came -- 10 Q: You said earlier in one (1) of -- 11 earlier on you had talked about the other party needing 12 to be served, is that -- but where did you get that 13 understanding about service? 14 A: Either from Carson or, well, I 15 suspect from Carson. 16 Q: Okay. And this reference to concerns 17 raised that the longer it goes more may be around, what 18 do you recall about that? Who -- do you recall who 19 raised that concern? Was that something Mr. Vervoort 20 said? 21 A: I don't recall who raised that, sir. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I recall chairing this meeting or 24 leaving this meeting and I remember some of the 25 information here but I don't -- I don't recall that.
2231 Q: Okay. And then Sergeant -- what do 2 you -- do you recall about the school buses? 3 A: Yes, I do recall that. 4 Q: And what, if anything, was done with 5 respect to the school buses? 6 A: Well, again, they were -- I thought 7 they were -- I was always of the mind that they were -- 8 the kids were getting sick because they were sitting in 9 line because we were stopping vehicles, and we may not be 10 stopping the bus but we may be stopping the vehicle 11 that's in front of them so that would not allow the bus 12 get by -- to go by. 13 And I -- I thought it was more motion 14 sickness because of the time they're spending in the bus 15 starting and stopping as they inch their way through the 16 -- the roadblocks. 17 Q: And so there was a discussion about 18 the re -- 19 A: Rerouting the -- the buses. 20 Q: So they didn't have to stop at the 21 roadblocks. 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Okay. Then: 24 "Sergeant Seltzer advises there is no 25 support coming from the reserve.
2241 Trevor Richardson advises is told by 2 Elders that there is no burial on that 3 part of the land. 4 Mark Wright have Sergeant Seltzer check 5 with John Carson if a statement can be 6 made regarding this." 7 And do you have any recollection of this 8 discussion? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 Q: Can you tell us what your 11 recollection is? 12 A: Just that I -- I thought it would be 13 an option to the Incident Commander that we -- we put 14 that in a release that very -- that very point. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: And I thought that I should bring 17 that up to the Inspector and he could decide whether or 18 not he wanted to do it. It's, again, just another 19 option. 20 Q: And the -- did Inspector Carson -- 21 there's an entry 14:47: 22 "Inspector Carson advised that Tim 23 McCabe, Crown Law Office, called him 24 and inquiring about his availability to 25 give evidence tomorrow in Sarnia court,
2251 subject to approval of bosses and 2 whether someone else can go. 3 Also Tim McCabe wants the names of 4 people on Park." 5 And was that something that Inspector 6 Carson told you and the others in this meeting, or do you 7 recall that? 8 A: I -- I don't recall. I think he came 9 back later and I -- I think that's where it came from. 10 But I -- 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I don't recall for sure. 13 Q: And you have a note, 14:47, in your 14 notes at page 76: 15 "Advised I would be attending the court 16 tomorrow possibly in Sarnia to give 17 evidence in the injunction 18 proceedings." 19 A: Right. And that's -- the key word 20 there is "possibly." I think I'm told twice is that -- 21 my recollection is at that point I believe Inspector 22 Carson tells me I may be the one. 23 And then some time later he tells me I am 24 the one. 25 Q: And at this point is he still meeting
2261 with Mr. Parkin, Superintendent Parkin and Chief Coles? 2 A: I don't think so. 3 Q: And -- excuse me -- does he tell you 4 about his conversation with Ron Fox that he had a two 5 o'clock that afternoon? 6 A: Carson? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Does he tell me, no. 9 Q: Does he -- 10 A: Are -- are -- the two o'clock call 11 this afternoon, just so we're clear on that is -- 12 Q: That's another call between Ron Fox 13 and John Carson at two o'clock on the afternoon of 14 September the 6th? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And did John Carson ever mention to 17 you that there had been an allegation by people in 18 Toronto that the OPP may have made mistakes? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did John Carson ever tell you in the 21 -- on September the 6th about what went on, according to 22 Ron Fox, at the Interministerial Committee meeting? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did John Carson tell you about the 25 fact that Ron Fox attended a meeting with the Premier,
2271 the Attorney General, the Solicitor General, Minister of 2 Natural Resources, their Deputies at Queen's Park on 3 September 6th? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did anyone else tell you that on 6 September the 6th? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Then after that meeting and after you 9 were told that you might be given the -- the task of 10 going to Sarnia the next day, there's a note at 15:02: 11 "Mark Wright and Marg Eve gone to try 12 and talk to people at the Park." 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And then: 15 "Mark Wright advised that Bill Dennis 16 is in charge right now. John Carson -- 17 Inspector Carson is meeting with Chief 18 Superintendent Coles and Superintendent 19 Parkin." 20 So when you left to go to the Park he was 21 still meeting with them? 22 A: Yes. That's -- 23 Q: According to this note? 24 A: Yes. According to this, yes. 25 Q: So can you tell us what you did when
2281 you went back down to the Park? 2 A: Well, I went with Sergeant Eve. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And we attended at approximately the 5 exact same place that I had attended prior to that, the 6 previous day, with Les Kobayashi and Brad Seltzer. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: And there were a number of 9 individuals again at the -- at -- over by the camp, over 10 by the building, the -- 11 Q: The camp store? 12 A: Yes, thank you, the camp store. And 13 they were yelling things to us. There were men, women 14 and children over there. 15 And they had removed the mirrors from the 16 washrooms within that building and they -- the young 17 teenagers, I guess they were, were deflecting or 18 reflecting the sun's light back into Sergeant Eve and 19 mine eyes, our eyes, I should say, during this time. 20 And at one point, a young fellow comes 21 over and speaks to us. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I'm just -- if I can have a moment, I 24 just want -- 25 Q: Sure.
2291 A: -- to go to my notes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Okay. I recall a young lad came to 6 us and we talked to him for a bit but I think he was 7 talking about being glad he didn't have to go to school 8 or something along those lines. 9 In any -- in any event, eventually -- and 10 I'm referring to my notes here on page 77, is a black 11 coloured Camaro drove up to the fence line. I also -- 12 Q: Before -- before I -- you leave that, 13 your note indicates that I spoke to a fourteen (14) year 14 old Native male and asked him to contact Glen George who 15 I'd spoken to weeks ago when Natives took over the built 16 up area of camp Ipperwash. 17 A: Right. And that would be the young 18 lad that I'm -- I was referring to. 19 Q: And before we go on, I'm showing you 20 a -- we've got on the screen a copy of 1009634, 1009634. 21 And do you recognize the individuals in that photograph? 22 A: Yes, that's -- yes. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: That's -- I'm on the left and 25 Sergeant Mark Eve is on the right.
2301 Q: And where are you in relation to the 2 turnstile that's on the west side of the Park? 3 A: We are north of the turnstile. 4 Q: About how far north? 5 A: Not very, I guess. In the 6 approximate area that we were the day before. 7 Q: And there appears in this photograph 8 to be more trees, that's -- 9 A: Yes. And -- and I recall it was very 10 hot and we were taking advantage of the shade. 11 Q: Okay. And so perhaps we'll mark that 12 photograph, that page as the next exhibit, please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1104, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1104: Document number 1009634. 16 London Free Press article, 17 Leaderless Natives Stay Mum, 18 September 07/'95. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the mirrors that you're referring 22 to are the mirrors that you can -- the white objects you 23 can see in the back of the picture? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And so you spoke to the young --
2311 young man who attended, or the fourteen (14) year old boy 2 who attended, then what else happened? 3 A: Then, like I say, we continued to 4 wait for people to approach and talk, I did, to talk to 5 me or -- and/or Sergeant Eve. And there was some 6 conversation back and forth from the building to where we 7 are, from the people that were at -- over at the 8 building. 9 And in addition, there was the odd car 10 that went by across the grass -- across the grass which 11 would be further north of where we are within the Park. 12 And there was some driving onto the grass 13 and onto the -- in and around the Park there. There was 14 a number of vehicles moving around. 15 Q: And -- and immediately to the east of 16 you, in the Park, was an area for parking of day campers? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And so that there was parking -- a 19 sandy part and a grass part in that day campers area? 20 A: Yeah, that's what I recall. 21 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 22 A: And then eventually a vehicle came by 23 and it stopped. It was a black coloured Camaro and it 24 drove up to the fence line, but I -- I don't want to 25 leave the impression that it was right up against the
2321 fence line because it wasn't, it was a bit off the fence 2 line, but reasonably close. 3 Q: On the inside of the Park? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: And we were on the outside of the 7 Park. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And the passenger -- I had a 10 conversation with the passenger of the motor vehicle, and 11 my notes are such that it says the passenger said to me: 12 "Scott Ewert sends his regards." 13 And I replied: 14 "I hope he wasn't acting as a bailiff 15 in Lambton County." 16 And then I've got in brackets, as a note 17 to myself, he's a bailiff for Elgin County but -- only, 18 but of course he's -- he was a bailiff for Middlesex 19 County only, so that's an error. 20 The -- the Native asked, Did I speak for 21 my people, and I said, Yes. And I asked him if he spoke 22 for his people and he responded, We'll do our talking 23 with guns. 24 So that was basically that, after he said 25 that. I -- I took that as a threat to our safety so Marg
2331 and I left. 2 Q: And what was the demeanor of the 3 person who said -- responded to you, We will do our 4 talking with guns? 5 A: Well, he wasn't -- he wasn't mad or 6 yelling or -- it was just -- wasn't anything 7 extraordinary, it was -- it was a -- it was a 8 conversation. It was -- it was said in a conversational 9 tone, it wasn't said in a menacing tone. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: But I took the threat as legitimate 12 and we left. 13 Q: And so how long were you down there? 14 The scribe notes indicate that you're back in the Camp 15 command post at, as to your notes, approximately 16:44? 16 A: Right. We -- we were there -- my 17 recollection is we were there a while because I can 18 recall it was hot, and I can recall the -- the reflection 19 from the -- the mirrors going on for what I felt was a 20 fairly significant amount of time. 21 Q: And the -- what else happened at the 22 meeting? Your note indicates: 23 "There was no more talking done and 24 after a short time we left the area, 25 returned to command post, briefed
2341 Inspector Carson." 2 Now, the person that spoke to you in the 3 car, did you recognize the person? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Had you seen that person before? 6 A: Not that I recalled, no. 7 Q: And the... 8 A: There's also a note in my -- my 9 notebook, sir, with regards to I was talking about the 10 vehicles that I saw, and I note here that my motes say 11 that I saw a motor vehicle with -- with the words "OPP 12 Who" marked on it. 13 And that it was equipped with what I felt 14 were MNR emergency equipment sirens and -- and other 15 emergency lights that had been mounted on that vehicle. 16 So I -- I may have noticed that as well. 17 Q: And the vehicle that -- the notes -- 18 these notes for September the 6th, 1995, when did you 19 make these notes up, Inspector? 20 A: These -- these -- this particular 21 part of my notes? 22 Q: Yes. That afternoon? The next day? 23 The day after? 24 A: No, no. It wasn't the next -- this 25 is September 5th, correct?
2351 Q: This is September 6th, the afternoon 2 of September 6th. 3 A: If I can just have a minute. 4 Q: Sure. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I think I did those portions of my -- 9 my recollection is that I did those portions of my notes 10 once I get -- once I got back to the command post. 11 Q: Okay. And the -- in the notes you 12 indicate that you -- the notes don't refer to who you 13 spoke to but you've told us that you recall speaking to 14 the passenger. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And if I could take you for a moment 17 to Exhibit P-462, Inspector Wright, it's at Tab 58 of 18 your Book of Documents and this is a taped interview of 19 yours dated September 12th, 1995, although all of the 20 other pages say September 8, 1995. I'm not certain why. 21 Do you recall when you were interviewed by 22 Inspector Bob Goodall? 23 A: I may have it in my notebook here. 24 Q: Was it on the 8th or the 12th? 25 A: I'm looking at the 12th right now.
2361 "Interviewed by Detective Inspector 2 Goodall regarding my involvement in the 3 events leading to and immediately after 4 the armed clash." 5 Q: So that was on -- 6 A: 12th. 7 Q: -- September the 12th? 8 And if I could ask you to turn, please, to 9 pages -- page 7. At the bottom of the page it says, 10 talking about you and Margaret Eve being at the fence 11 line. 12 "There was some adults there and they 13 basically ignored us for approximately 14 twenty (20) to twenty-five (15) minutes 15 until I -- I believe it was a Camaro 16 pulled up with two (2) male First 17 Nations in the car. 18 At that time I had a conversation with 19 the driver. I identified myself and I 20 said I wanted -- I asked the guy if he 21 would talk to me and he said to me, Do 22 you speak for your people, and I said 23 Yes, I do. 24 And I asked him did he represent his 25 people. He didn't answer. Then I said
2371 to him, Well, I just want to talk to 2 you about this situation and he 3 responded to me, We'll do our talking 4 with guns. 5 He then accelerated from a stop 6 position, did a 180 degree turn and 7 returned back into the body of the 8 Provincial Park." 9 And then it indicates: 10 "I remained there at the scene with 11 Sergeant Eve for approximately another 12 twenty (20) minutes just to make myself 13 available in case somebody else wanted 14 to come over and talk. And that did 15 not happen." 16 And on September the 12th you indicated 17 that you spoke to the driver of the vehicle. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And there's no indication in your 20 notes as to who you spoke to. And today do you have any 21 recollection other than -- what is your best recollection 22 today? 23 Does the note -- the interview you had 24 with Inspector Goodall assist you with your recollection? 25 A: Well, I don't have anything in my
2381 notebook with respect to the individual and that's the 2 next time, although I would think the -- an earlier time 3 would be the evidence at the injunction and I'm not sure 4 what it is I may have said there. So that might be 5 helpful. 6 Q: I don't think you said that -- I 7 don't know if you said anything other than perhaps the 8 driver, because we might have picked that up. We would 9 have picked that up if you'd said something different 10 from this. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: But perhaps, if you think -- we can 13 check that. 14 A: Well, I'm just -- I'm -- my -- my 15 recollection today was I talked to the passenger, 16 however, this is on September the 12th, back a number of 17 years ago, which is a lot closer to the incident. 18 And I guess what I'm saying is the 19 injunction -- the elements of the injunction would be 20 that much closer. So if the evidence from the injunction 21 and the -- my statement to Goodall is that it was the 22 driver, then I would tend to defer to that -- those two 23 documents. 24 Q: The reference in the -- just to 25 assist you with your recollection, Inspector Wright, it's
2391 page 18, it's Inquiry Document 3000504. And at page 18 2 and the -- there's a question, you're indicating -- it's 3 Exhibit P-737, talking about Mark Eve going with you and 4 then you say: 5 "A: Yes. Yesterday afternoon that 6 was right. And we were there at least 7 an hour and we did some conversation, 8 but the closest we came to any kind of 9 dialogue was I asked an individual -- 10 two (2) individuals, two (2) males 11 pulled up in a car, two (2) Natives, 12 and I asked if we could talk to their 13 representative and he asked me if I 14 represented -- if I was a spokesperson 15 for my people, as he termed it, and I 16 said, Yes, along with Sergeant Eve who 17 was the policewoman. And I asked him 18 if he was and he didn't answer me and I 19 said, Well, I'd like to talk to 20 somebody about the situation here and 21 the response to me was, We'll do our 22 talking with guns, that's exactly what 23 he said to me, so we left the area, we 24 felt it was prudent to do so at that 25 particular time."
2401 A: Right. So it appears that I don't 2 identify where that individual was, correct? 3 Q: That's -- that's right. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And when you spoke to Inspector 6 Goodall you thought -- you said it was the driver. But 7 you also said you stayed twenty (20) minutes more -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- when you spoke to Inspector 10 Goodall? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: So? 13 A: Well, I appreciate there's some 14 confusion here. I can tell you that I -- I've told you 15 today that my recollection it was the passenger. And 16 that was my recollection at the time I was giving you my 17 evidence. 18 However, the statement from September to 19 Goodall suggests that it was the driver, and that's 20 closer to the incident so I guess that's all I can say 21 with respect to that. 22 And in regards to the timing that we 23 stayed there, at the time of the -- I gave that evidence 24 at the injunction hours after the incident and my 25 evidence there was that we left right away, so -- and
2411 that was my recollection now. 2 So I'm more inclined to think that that's 3 more accurate than my statement to Goodall. 4 Q: And why did you -- why did Margaret 5 Eve go down with you as the -- 6 A: Well, because I -- I wasn't -- it was 7 always -- a couple of reasons really, is, one, she was a 8 negotiator and I wasn't -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- and two, her specifically because 11 Marg was female and we felt that perhaps a female 12 individual would meet with more success than a male 13 individual. 14 I mean, we were basically trying -- 15 prepared to try anything and be somewhat innovative down 16 there in order to make contact, because it was our -- 17 certainly my understanding and -- and as well as Sergeant 18 Seltzer's, that there was that tradition that the females 19 in the First Nations culture were seen as people who may 20 be representing their community, so we brought Marg down 21 to accommodate that. 22 Q: And you were gone from 3:00 until 23 approximately -- the notes indicate that you returned 24 from the Park the -- the scribe notes at page 66 at 25 16:42.
2421 And in your notes they indicate at 16:44 2 that you were back at least by then and speaking to John 3 Carson? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And the note in the scribe notes 6 indicates: 7 "Mark Wright advises car has MNR lights 8 on it. Arrest them for stolen 9 vehicles. Mark Wright talked with 10 First Nations person in Ontario 11 [market] -- marker..." 12 And you give the licence number. 13 "Operator states that they will settle 14 with guns." 15 So here you say the operator states they 16 will settle with guns. 17 A: Well, I think that's the -- in -- in 18 all this is the -- the scribe's version of what's going 19 on there. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Right? So... 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I don't know if that's any more 24 helpful or... 25 Q: And:
2431 "John Carson advised Mark Wright that 2 he will be our representative in court 3 tomorrow. John Carson to discuss 4 details with Mark Wright." 5 So that's when you learned you were going 6 to be the representative? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: "MARK WRIGHT: Les Jewel is there on 9 picnic table. Will not talk to us. 10 JOHN CARSON: Any media there? 11 MARG EVES: Yes, there is. There are 12 women and kids down there. 13 JOHN CARSON: How many kids down there? 14 Four (4) or six (6) kids down there 15 playing. Kids stated that they don't 16 have to go to school. 17 MARG EVE: Probably six (6) kids. A 18 fourteen (14) year old came up and told 19 us that he was not talking to us. 20 Marg Eve said JP was his name. Mark 21 Wright told him to go and tell adults 22 that we want to talk to them. He told 23 them and he left. Constable Evans got 24 a picture of the person who said we 25 will settle it with guns. Marg Eve
2441 advised -- John Carson advised Marg Eve 2 to take her stripes off when she goes 3 down to talk to them. For first part 4 she should take them off." 5 It says talk them off but it must be take 6 them off. 7 "Marg Eve, should she be in uniform? 8 JOHN CARSON: She can go in jeans and 9 wear an outer vest. 10 Mark Wright and Marg Eve explaining to 11 John Carson what little discussion did 12 take place." 13 Q: And does that assist in your 14 recollection as to what you told John Carson at the time? 15 A: Yes, and I -- I think that's in 16 anticipation of attempting to try to go down there again 17 the next time with respect to that's what that 18 conversation is about. Stripes, that will be the -- what 19 we refer to as her sergeant insignia. 20 Q: Yes, and then the point was made she 21 could go down in jeans. 22 A: Yeah, correct. 23 Q: Now, what did you -- there's a 24 reference at 17:00 hours: 25 "Marg Wright advises that Vince George
2451 is going up in chopper to help identify 2 people. 3 Stan Korosec, Do you want Trevor 4 Richardson to go to homeowner's 5 residence? 6 John Carson advises that he wants 7 Trevor Richardson to go and talk to 8 this individual and see if he has any 9 other information and the individuals 10 called in about the car being stuck 11 being stuck in the sand." 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Now, there's a reference on the last 14 page, page 66: 15 "Constable Evans got a picture of the 16 person who said that we will settle it 17 with guns." 18 Did you ever see that picture? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Have you ever seen it since? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Then what did you do next? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2461 A: It looks like I attended a meeting at 2 8:12 -- 18:12 hours -- no, that's not correct. 3 Q: Perhaps we can -- 4 A: I -- sorry. 5 Q: Perhaps we could go -- before we go 6 there, Inquiry Document 1002685, the handwritten notes of 7 Margaret Eve for the time that when you attended at the 8 Park and Margaret Eve indicated in her notes that the -- 9 she says: 10 "Eight (8) to ten (10) adults who were 11 sitting by the building not willing to 12 talk. No one appeared, no one in 13 charge. Dudley George known to myself 14 from the summer camping, driving in a 15 black Camaro driven by David George. 16 They advised they were not willing to 17 talk. Stated that Wright was a --" 18 A: Liar. 19 Q: "-- liar and this would be settled by 20 guns. They drove off. Returned to 21 command post, advised J. Carson." 22 Does that assist, do you recall someone 23 calling you a liar? 24 A: I don't -- I don't recall somebody 25 calling me a liar. I don't take issue with, they did,
2471 though. 2 Q: And the -- Margaret Eve had indicated 3 that the two (2) people in the car were Dudley George and 4 David George. Did she indicate that to you at the time? 5 A: No. I didn't know that, that those 6 people were involved, and in particular Mr. Anthony 7 George, until, I would say, months later. 8 Q: And how did you come to learn that 9 Mr. George -- Anthon -- Dudley George was in the car? 10 A: Well I knew that -- I can recall very 11 clearly, I can't give you the day but I know the incident 12 surrounding it. 13 I was back at Petrolia, back to my duties 14 as a Detective Sergeant. And Sergeant Deane had been 15 charged criminally and he was preparing for trial, and I 16 was aware of that. And Marg came down to my office in 17 Petrolia because she was conducting some investigations 18 on Walpole Island with Detective Constable Phil George. 19 And we got to talking about what took 20 place, that incident, and that's when she told me that 21 the individual who said that they would do their talking 22 with guns, was Dudley George. 23 And I -- I was shocked. I had no idea who 24 that -- that that was in fact the same person who later 25 died at the hands of Sergeant Deane.
2481 So I called -- I made some calls as a 2 result of becoming aware of that to make people up -- to 3 make some individuals aware that this was in fact known 4 to me now because I didn't think anybody else knew other 5 than Marg and now I. 6 Q: And so that was some months after? 7 A: Yeah. That was -- it was -- it was 8 the summer time, I know that. 9 Q: In the following year? Summer of 10 '96? 11 A: Yes, yeah. 12 Q: Now, you were going to tell us about 13 what you did next and I understand that you went to a 14 meeting. 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: Now, can you tell us how you learned 17 that there might be a meeting on the afternoon of 18 September the 6th? 19 A: Yes. My recollection is Inspector 20 Carson delegated me to -- to go find this meeting, that 21 he thought that there was going to be a gathering of some 22 people from that -- from the Port Franks area. 23 So he sent me to Port Franks, so that's 24 where I went, to Port Franks. 25 Q: And when did you go to Port Franks?
2491 A: I -- I left the Detachment just prior 2 to six o'clock because I remember driving around Port 3 Franks somewhat confused, because it was about five (5) 4 minutes to 6:00 or something like that and Port Franks is 5 a very small place, and I couldn't find -- I couldn't 6 find any meeting, I couldn't find -- there was nobody 7 around there. 8 So -- and I remember being somewhat 9 frustrated because, frankly, what I wanted to be doing is 10 -- I didn't want to be at work anymore. I wanted to be - 11 - I wanted to go back to my room and start to prepare for 12 my court appearance the next morning because that was 13 weighing heavily on my mind, that I was the one who was 14 tasked with having to give the evidence at the 15 injunction. 16 Q: And you made a call to the command 17 post when you were in Port Franks; do you recall that? 18 A: Yes. I believe I -- I did. 19 Q: If I could ask you to turn to Tab 30. 20 Now, this call is -- the time on this communication is 21 17:39 hours; that would be twenty to 6:00 in the 22 afternoon of September 6th? 23 A: What tab did you say, sir? Pardon 24 me? 25 Q: Tab 30.
2501 A: Yes. 2 Q: And -- 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 Region 08 7 Mark Wright - Command Post - Korosec 8 September 6, 1995 17:39 hrs. 9 Chatham Communications Centre Logger Tape #0146 Track 12 10 Disc 12 of 20 11 12 [CP = Command Post] 13 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 14 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 15 16 MW: Command Post from Sergeant Wright. 17 SK: Yeah Mark. Its Sergeant Korosec. I did 18 make contact with the spouse of that 19 party. She is unaware of any - of that 20 meeting. As far as she knows there isn't 21 one and that other party is away at 22 another meeting. That's not related to 23 this at all. 24 MW: Okay 10-4. I'll go down to where we talked 25 about anyway and wait til 1800 and see
2511 what happens. You've advised Inspector 2 Carson I expect. 3 SK: Yeah, that's 10-4 I have. 4 MW: Okay 10-4. Unless if he says otherwise 5 I'll go down there just in case 6 something's going to happen I'll wait til 7 maybe quarter after, something like that. 8 SK: 10-4. I figured that's what you did - or 9 were going to do and I told him that. 10 MW: 10-4. We're clear. 11 MW: Sergeant Wright from 24-67. 12 24-67: Unit calling Sergeant Wright. Go ahead 13 you're 10-1. 14 [static] 15 MW: Sergeant Wright to the Comm Cen- Command 16 Post. Can you 10-9 - I got none of that. 17 24-67: Sergeant Wright from 24-67. Is this any 18 better? 19 MW: Little bit better. 20 24-67: Yeah, this is 24-67 at B and two cars 21 coming through here have advised at 18 00 22 hours that will take place 23 MW: Okay 10-4. I think I got you, there's cars 24 coming by. You figure- it is going to take 25 place? It is?
2521 24-67: 10-4. That's what they've advised. 2 MW: Okay. You're down at that community centre 3 then right? 4 24-67: Negative - ah - 24-67. We're at 5 Checkpoint B and just that passing 6 motorists have indicated that its going to 7 happen. 8 MW: Okay, I got it. Thanks. 9 24-67: Well - ah - I'll go to location then. 10 End of conversation 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 13 14 Q: And I would ask, Commissioner, that 15 that transcript of those two (2) communications, the 16 communication with Sergeant Korosec and the second 17 communication with Car 24-67, that 24-67 refers to the 18 number assigned to the people in the car. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I didn't -- I didn't pick 24 it up exactly but Mr. Sandler indicates that if we listen 25 to this again he thinks that the entry Stan Korosec where
2531 it says: 2 "I did make contact with the spouse of 3 that party. She is unaware of any - of 4 that meeting as far as she knows..." 5 Instead of "they're sourcing out", perhaps 6 we could make that correction to the transcript which I 7 would ask be made the next exhibit and perhaps what we'll 8 do is simply make a note on the transcript that "they're 9 sourcing out" should be "as far as she knows"? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1105, Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What number? 12 P-1105? 13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1105: Transcript of Chatham 16 Communication Centre Logger 17 tape number 0146, track 12, 18 disc 12 of 20, Mark Wright, 19 Command Post, Sgt. Korosec, 20 17:39, Sept. 06/'95. 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I'll listen to it 23 again at the end of the day and make -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Double check but I'm
2541 certain that Mr. Sandler's correct. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, what did -- you called Sergeant 5 Korosec, it sounds like you're on your way down? 6 A: Yes. I'm -- well, now I'm on my way. 7 Q: The first part of the conversation it 8 appears that you're on your way to Port Franks? 9 A: Right, I agree. 10 Q: That's about twenty (20) to -- twenty 11 (20) to 6:00 on the evening of September 6th? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And then you're -- you call Sergeant 14 Wright, I mean you call Sergeant Korosec and why did you 15 call Sergeant Korosec? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: And which -- which one are you -- are 20 you referring to the call at 17:39? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Okay, well it appears that Korosec is 23 calling me to tell me that he's checked to see if 24 somebody, some civilian is aware of this meeting and -- 25 and it would appear that him and I have talked about that
2551 because I remember it being very -- very vague as to 2 whether or not this meeting was A) going to take place 3 and B) where that might be. 4 So, Stan and I have obviously talked about 5 that and he's gone to make a call, so he's reporting back 6 to me that he's talked to that individual and she's not 7 being a whole lot of help with respect to that meeting in 8 what we think is Port Franks. 9 So I respond to him that I'll -- I'll go 10 down there and have a look anyways and I'll stay there 11 for a while. 12 Q: Okay. And so you went to Port Franks 13 and stayed for a while? 14 A: Right. Until I got a call and 24-67 15 is -- looks like we're going what we refer to as car to 16 car and he's telling me that there -- there is a meeting. 17 It appears there actually is a meeting and 18 I -- obviously you can tell by the transcript that I'm 19 not sure exactly where he is, but he clears that up for 20 me and -- and I later -- I now understand that he's -- 21 what we refer to as the TOC or the MNR parking lot area. 22 So, I start to make my way that way. 23 Q: Down to the MNR parking lot? 24 A: Right. So I -- I'm in Port Franks 25 when I -- when we're clearly off as to location.
2561 Q: Okay. And you knew where checkpoint 2 B was, it was on East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And then what did you do? 5 A: Well, I went to East Parkway Drive. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And I drove into the parking lot and 8 I located a number of people there, twenty (20) to forty 9 (40) people, something like that. Men, women and 10 children. 11 And my recollection is they had some signs 12 with them and Mayor Fred Thomas was there. 13 Q: Yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I'm just going to my notes, sir. 18 Q: Certainly. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: And I remember being shocked about 23 this gathering, 'cause this was the last thing I expected 24 at this time. I -- I had no idea that -- because clearly 25 they were about ready to march and they told me they were
2571 about ready to march to the Park, which caused me great 2 concern. 3 So, I -- and I had -- I had introduced 4 myself so they knew that I was a police officer, because 5 I'd be in -- I'd be in plainclothes. I was in, I think, 6 jeans and a t-shirt and I was driving a -- although it 7 was a cruiser, one would never guess that it was a 8 cruiser. 9 It was much more than an unmarked police 10 vehicle. 11 In any event, they knew -- I introduced 12 myself, they appreciated that I was a police officer and 13 they told me about their intention to march towards the 14 Park and they were -- they were frustrated. 15 They -- and I don't mean to suggest that 16 they were an angry mob, 'cause they weren't. They were 17 just intent on marching towards the Park and expressing 18 their frustration with what was going on. 19 And so I began to talk to them and I told 20 them that -- that we had been there a long time and that 21 they were unaware and I explained to them how we had been 22 doing the undercover camping operation in the Park and 23 they had no idea and that made them feel immediately 24 better. 25 And that we weren't -- we weren't going
2581 to go away and that we were going to stay there until the 2 problem is solved -- was solved. 3 I told them that in my opinion to march on 4 the Park would be dangerous and we couldn't guarantee 5 their safety. And I told them -- I believe I told them 6 it would not be illegal to -- yes, it's in my notes here: 7 "To march would not be illegal but it 8 would certainly complicate the 9 situation as far as I was concerned. 10 I told them that it was our intention 11 to treat everyone fairly" 12 And these -- these are from my notes I'm 13 making these remarks and: 14 "That we had been there for sometime 15 in the Park with undercover officers 16 like I said and ERT units assigned to 17 special details in and around 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park." 19 Eventually I persuaded them to -- that -- 20 that in fact this wasn't a good idea and that it was best 21 if they go home and most of them left after some time. 22 We were there a while but a number of them lingered and I 23 don't -- I remember talking to a man at the very end who 24 lingered and I -- I don't know if that Mr. Thomas, I 25 don't know but I remember everybody had left and there
2591 was one (1) man left. 2 And I wasn't about to leave that Park 3 until I was absolutely sure the last person who was there 4 was gone. So that's what I did. 5 And once everybody had left I left the -- 6 the TOC area but I was -- I was -- it certainly caused me 7 concern because I just hadn't personally expected the 8 people in and around that area to make that move. 9 And I was concerned that -- that the Duty 10 -- well, the Inspector -- I knew Linton was on but I 11 certainly wanted -- no, pardon me, I didn't know Linton 12 was on but I -- I was intent that it was very important 13 that the inspector and I thought it was Carson who was 14 there would know that this had happened because this was 15 nothing like what he had explained to me about, you know, 16 attend some meeting. 17 Q: Well, when you -- when he explained 18 to you attend some meeting did he tell you anything more 19 about attending the meeting? 20 A: Well, my recollection is it was -- 21 you know there was a -- the community -- some community 22 members were coming together and they were going to 23 discuss this and it was good that, you know, we should 24 have a representative down there. 25 And you're knowledgeable of what's going
2601 on and -- and Inspector Carson had a great deal of faith 2 in me and he sent me to these sort of things and so I 3 went. 4 But I certainly didn't expect that, that I 5 would be walking into that kind of an atmosphere. 6 Q: And do you have any recollection 7 today of what were on the signs; what was written on the 8 signs? 9 A: No. No. There was nothing. I -- 10 there was nothing provocative on the signs. 11 Q: And you've indicated I think that -- 12 and it's in your note there was approximately thirty (30) 13 to four (4) people in the -- in the MNR parking lot. 14 A: Right. Right. 15 Q: And what part of the parking lot were 16 they at, close to the road, back into -- 17 A: Back. Well, the cars were all parked 18 in -- in the -- there's a parking lot area back there and 19 they were -- they were back in. It was ten (10) years 20 ago but I would say they were in maybe 20 metres, 25 21 metres off of East Parkway within the body of that TOC. 22 Q: And how close were they to the St. 23 John's Ambulance trailer that was parked in that same 24 parking lot? 25 A: I remember it being right -- right in
2611 that vicinity. I -- I can see in my mind's eye it being 2 over to my right as I talked to these people. 3 Q: And when you -- do you recall today 4 where in the MNR parking lot which runs south from East 5 Parkway Drive away from the lake so it's south -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- and whether the TOC -- the -- the 8 St. John's Ambulance Tactical Operations Centre was on 9 the west side or the east side of the Park? 10 A: I recall it to be on my west side, as 11 I talked to those people. 12 That's the best I can do to you. It was 13 to my west, as I talked to them because I remember the 14 door of the unit being open and I remember there being a 15 police officer, somebody manning that, sitting -- I could 16 see the individual sitting in that building in that -- in 17 the St. John's Ambulance trailer. 18 I can remember seeing him in there. 19 Q: Okay. And so that the person -- did 20 you -- so I take it from what you said that you did not 21 know Mayor Fred Thomas? 22 A: At some point I -- I -- I realized it 23 was him because -- and I'm -- it's not in my notes that I 24 know of at the time but I seem to recall reading 25 something somewhere where it's -- at some point I become
2621 aware. I don't know when and I don't recall whether or 2 not I recognized it to be Mr. Thomas at the time I was 3 talking down there. 4 I suspect he introduced himself to me. It 5 wasn't, you know, a surreptitious or clandestine meeting 6 in any event, so... 7 Q: And how long do you think that the 8 meeting took place? 9 A: I think I was there around an hour. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Something like that. 12 Q: And there's a -- there's a entry in 13 your note -- notebook on page 79. 14 "Meeting ended at 18:27 hours." 15 A: Right. 16 Q: You see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And I would ask you to look at -- do 19 you -- was that correct? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And that time came from where? 22 A: I -- I think that time came from the 23 scribe notes. 24 Q: And if I could take you to the scribe 25 notes at page 69.
2631 A: Right. 2 Q: There's a report in the scribe notes: 3 "18:37. Mark Wright is at LIMA 2 4 talking to Mayor Fred Thomas. Meeting 5 completed at 18:27 hours." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: That would be wrong. 9 Q: That would be wrong. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Although it might refer to the 12 meeting that's actually starts at the top of page 68, the 13 briefing with command members. 14 A: It may well very, but it's -- 15 Q: But it certainly wasn't -- didn't 16 refer to your meeting? 17 A: No, it didn't and I -- 18 Q: So how do you -- 19 A: -- haven't ever seen that before 20 but -- 21 Q: And when you checked that time, you 22 got this time out of, as you said, out of the scribe 23 notes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And just for the assistance of the --
2641 your assistance, Commissioner, I'd like to play a couple 2 of transcripts of radio calls and you'll find on the left 3 hand side there's some additional transcripts and you 4 have them, too. 5 I think it's that top pile, just take the 6 whole pile. 7 A: Got it. 8 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, I 9 distributed these late but I distributed them last night. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And the first call is at 18:20 on 14 September the 6th. 15 A: Right. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 September 6, 1995 20 18:20 21 Track # 1820 22 Lima One, Lima Two. 23 24 Lima Two, Lima One . go. 25
2651 Lima One, Lima Two - they've been found they're at Lima 2 Two. I was unaware of what's going on. 3 Sergeant Wright is here now. 4 5 Who's that? 6 7 Lima One, Lima Two are you ten four? 8 9 Negative. You just kind of lost me - try it again. 10 11 Lima One, Lima Two - advise Sgt. Korosec, Sgt. Wright is 12 speaking right now with the person he's looking for. 13 They're presently at Lima Two. 14 15 Ten four. Thanks. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And did you ask the radio operator to 21 advise Sergeant Korosec that you were there? 22 A: I believe I did. 23 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 24 the next exhibit, sir. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1106, Your Honour.
2661 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1106: Transcript of Track number 2 1820, Sept. 06/'95. 18:20 3 hours. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And then there's a communication at 7 19:25 on the afternoon of September the 6th and it's the 8 second transcript down. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 11 12 19:25 13 Track # 1925 14 15 Lima One, Lima Two. 16 17 Lima One, Lima Two. 18 19 Lima Two go ahead I'm just, I've just arrived here I'm 20 just going into the trailer. Apparently the present Lima 21 Two is not easy to be reached. 22 23 Ten four. Would you advise Lima One that everything is 24 ten four here at Lima Two from Acting Detective Sgt., 25 Staff Sgt. Wright?
2671 Ten four. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And Inspector Wright, did you ask the 7 person manning the technical operation centre at St. John 8 -- at the MNR parking lot or someone in that trailer to 9 advise Sergeant Korosec that everything was -- can you 10 explain to us what you -- this message means, everything 11 is 10-4 at LIMA 2. 12 A: Yeah. That means everything's okay 13 and I was -- I was done. 14 Q: That's what I assumed it meant. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But I thought that it would be better 17 for you to tell us. That's -- can we mark that 18 transcript the next exhibit? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1107, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1107: Transcript of Track number 22 1925. 19:25 hours. 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, Commissioner, 25 we're about to launch onto a sequence of events that I'm
2681 not going to finish this afternoon and it's a very 2 important sequence of events. 3 And I'd anticipated that we would be 4 finished by now and -- and I regret that we're not -- 5 that we're not finished, but it -- I think that it would 6 be best to start this sequence in the morning. Because 7 the sequence is the sequence from here up to the end of 8 September the 6th. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think as 10 the afternoon's gone on, it's been obvious that you 11 weren't going to finish this afternoon. But can you make 12 some reasonable estimate as to when you might be finished 13 tomorrow? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I hope -- I 15 regret because I told My Friends that I thought I'd be 16 finished earlier. Perhaps my initial thought was maybe 17 by noon and then later today and I know that and I'm 18 sorry that -- that we're not but I would -- some time 19 tomorrow morning I would expect we'd be finished. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can't 21 keep going because the witness will get tired and so will 22 you and so will I. 23 So I think we'll adjourn now and continue 24 tomorrow morning. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's just twenty-five
2691 after so. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll 5 adjourn now and continue tomorrow morning at nine o'clock 6 and hopefully finish some time tomorrow morning. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah I hope so too. 8 And I do apologize. I'd hoped that I would have been 9 done sooner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 We'll adjourn now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 12 13 (WITNESS RETIRES) 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 16 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, February the 23rd at 17 9:00 a.m. 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 4:23 p.m. 20 21 Certified Correct, 22 23 24 _________________ 25 Carol Geehan, Ms.