11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 22nd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q.C. ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) (Student-at-law) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 Peter West ) (np) 22 Nagai On Young ) (np) 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 8 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 9 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 10 Julian Roy ) (np) 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 15 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 16 Matthew Horner ) 17 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 18 19 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 20 Craig Mills ) 21 Megan Mackey ) (np) 22 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 23 Anna Perschy ) 24 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 25 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 7 CARL OTTO TOLSMO, Resumed 8 9 Continued Cross-Examination 10 by Ms. Karen Jones 9 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 166 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 210 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Janet Clermont 235 14 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 238 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 249 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-207 Document 4000322 London Free Press 4 article "Native Tents Near Grenade 5 Range" May 18/'93 30 6 P-208 Document 200665 May 20/'93 Fax from 7 J.F. Carson, Inspector OPP to C.J. 8 Coles, Chief Supt. OPP re First Nations 9 Occupation CFB Ipperwash, Ipperwash 10 Prov. Park, Chronology of Kettle and 11 Stony Point Bands 33 12 P-209 Document No. 9000030 Letter to Chiefs 13 of Ontario, Attn: Gord Peters From 14 Ron C. George re: Agreement of working 15 relationships Kettle point/Stoney 16 Point July 27/'93 48 17 P-210 Document No. 9000038, Letter to Chief 18 Tom Bressette, Kettle Point First 19 Nation from Ron C. Orange re Stoney 20 Point Land Claim, September 21/'93 57 21 P-211 Document No. 1003690 Sarnia Observer 22 article "Stoney Point Natives Brave 23 Cold Waiting For Talks" Jan. 20/'94 80 24 25
71 EXHIBIT LIST (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-212 Document No. 9000115 May 12/'94 4 Letter from Audrey D. Doerr, 5 Regional Director General to 6 Anthony Ross re Stoney Point IR 7 No. 43 and document No. 9000117 8 May 25/'94 Mr. Anthony Ross 9 letter to Chief Carl George 91 10 P-213 Document No.s 2001825 and 2001826 11 London Free Press article 12 "Campers, Cottagers Harassed" 13 May 24/'94 111 14 P-214 Document No. 1009310 letter to 15 Hon. Howard Hampton MP from 16 Maynard T. George March 09/'93 17 re: Notice to Vacate, Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park. 174 19 P-215 Document 1007820 Letter from Howard 20 Hampton signed by Ron Baldwin June 21 24/'93 in response to Maynard T. 22 George March 09/'93 Letter 179 23 24 25
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-216 Document No. 1007625 June 01/'93 4 confidential meeting notes of Inter- 5 Ministerial officials committee on 6 Aboriginal Emergencies Working 7 Group Meeting re: Camp Ipperwash 8 and Ipperwash Provincial Park on 9 May 25/'93, pages 16 and 17. 190 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. CARL OTTO TOLSMA: Good morning. 9 10 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Resumed 11 12 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: Good morning, Mr. Tolsma. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: Mr. Tolsma, I had asked you a number 16 of questions yesterday and it was late in the day and I 17 just want to make sure that have a fair chance to think 18 and answer the questions and I know it's hard to do that 19 sometimes when you're tired. 20 I don't want to revisit everything I did 21 but I just want to make sure that we have your evidence 22 clear on a few points -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- if that's okay with you. And 25 specifically I had asked you yesterday afternoon about
101 five (5) decisions that had to be made before land could 2 be -- the land could be returned and by the lands, you 3 know, it could include the base and the Park or even 4 other things. 5 And I think we agreed on those five (5) 6 decisions and one was what land was to be returned, the 7 second was who negotiated for it, the third was who got 8 it, the fourth was who got compensation and the fifth 9 was, who would clean it up. 10 And you gave some answers to those 11 questions but I wanted to give you a fair chance to make 12 sure that your evidence is accurate. And so my question 13 really was, back in 1993, that is before you and others 14 started the occupation of the area of the base, I wanted 15 to make sure we were clear about what your views were on 16 those questions and it may be the same as yesterday or it 17 may be different and if it's different I wouldn't fuss 18 because it was certainly late in the day. 19 So in terms of what land was to be 20 returned, I think your evidence yesterday was it was the 21 land that included the base, Ipperwash Park and the 22 cottage area to the east. 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Is that still right? And in terms of 25 who would negotiate for the return of that land, your
111 evidence yesterday was that it would be the Kettle and 2 Stony Point Band. 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Okay. And just so I'm clear, only 5 the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 6 A: Yes. Because they're the elected 7 body. 8 Q: Okay. And in terms of the question 9 who would get the land, your answer yesterday was the 10 Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- and just that Band. 13 A: Well, there's only one (1) band 14 anyway. 15 Q: Okay. And in terms of who gets 16 compensation, your answer yesterday was the Kettle and 17 Stony Point Band. 18 A: Yes. And from there they distribute 19 it to whoever needs it. 20 Q: As -- as they see fit? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And in terms of who cleans it 23 up, your answer was, I believe the Federal Government had 24 to clean it up. 25 A: Yes. They're -- they have to get a -
121 - do an environmental study first. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And then hire an outfit to clean it 4 up. 5 Q: And I had asked you some questions 6 yesterday about the $2 1/2 million dollars that had been 7 provided by the Federal Government to the Kettle and 8 Stony Point Band in 1980. 9 And do I take it from the answers to your 10 questions that you, personally, didn't have concerns 11 about how that money was distributed or did you? 12 A: Oh, I had concerns, but there's 13 nothing I could do about it. 14 Q: Okay. Can -- what -- what were your 15 concerns about that distribution? 16 A: That everybody got equal amount. 17 Q: Okay. And by that do you mean that 18 every member of the Kettle and Stony Point Band ought to 19 have gotten an equal amount? 20 A: Yes, everybody in the Kettle and 21 Stony Point Band. 22 Q: Okay. And I wanted to follow up on 23 one (1) other point, you've talked to us on a few days 24 now about a map that Maynard T. George had that showed 25 the location of apparently burial grounds in the Park?
131 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I'd asked you some questions 3 yesterday about where that might be. I think you have 4 told us that that and perhaps other information was 5 provided to the Kettle and Stony Point Band by you or 6 would be at Kettle and Stony Point Band? 7 A: Well, all the records I had, I turned 8 them over to the Kettle and Stony Point Band Office. 9 Q: Okay. When -- when did you that, Mr. 10 George? Oh, sorry, Mr. Tolsma, I'm really sorry. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I'm not sure. It had to be in '95. 15 Q: Okay. Was that after you had left or 16 detached yourself from the situation? 17 A: Yes, after I'd left. 18 Q: Left the Base? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And did you, at the time, have 21 any discussions with the people who were at -- the 22 occupiers who were at the Base of -- those documents and 23 where they should stay and who should have them? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No? That was something that you did
141 unilaterally? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you said on your first day 4 of evidence that there was a group of you who had had 5 discussions back in 1993 about moving onto the Base and I 6 think you gave some names Robert and Ron George, Maynard 7 T. George, Janet Cloud and Marlene Cloud. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you remember today whether any 10 others were involved in those discussions? 11 A: Well, there probably was. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I can't -- I'd have to look at the 14 papers to -- right off the top of my head I can't, no. 15 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether 16 your views about the land -- and that's the land that 17 you've described as the base of the Park in the east area 18 where the cottages are -- did you discuss your views with 19 that group of people prior to moving on to -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not, 24 through your discussions, those people shared your view 25 about the answers to the five (5) questions?
151 A: No. 2 Q: You don't know or they didn't share? 3 A: They didn't share at that time. 4 Q: They didn't share your views? 5 A: No, we were just talking about going 6 on the land. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: There was no evidence of the land 9 being returned at that point. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So, there was no use talking about 12 it. 13 Q: Okay. I guess specifically, did -- 14 did the -- did -- if you know, did the others share your 15 view about any return of the land as being a return to 16 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: They knew that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And so far as you knew, did 21 they agree with that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in terms of a negotiation, your 24 view about the proper negotiator being Kettle and Stony 25 Point Band, do you know, if you know, whether those
161 others agreed with that? 2 A: Well they wanted to -- after a while 3 they wanted to be part of it. 4 Q: Okay. But, prior to 19 -- prior to 5 your moving onto the land? 6 A: No. We never talked about anything 7 like that prior to the -- 8 Q: Okay. What were your discussions 9 about then prior to moving onto the land? 10 A: Just how we were going to do and we 11 weren't going to leave. 12 Q: Okay. And you weren't going to leave 13 until when? 14 A: Until something happened. The land 15 was going to be returned or whatever happens. 16 Q: Okay. And was it your view prior to 17 moving on the land in May of 1993, that you and the 18 others who were moving onto the land were doing so as 19 part of Kettle and Stony Point Band? Or did you see 20 yourselves as being something different than that? 21 A: We're just doing that on our own. 22 Q: On your own? 23 A: We didn't see ourselves any different 24 and we weren't doing it as part of Kettle and Stony 25 Point, we were just doing this on our own.
171 Q: Okay. And I think you've told us 2 that the Kettle and Stony Point Band didn't know about 3 your intentions to move onto the land? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And you didn't have any discussions 6 with anyone at that time? 7 A: No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Okay. One (1) of the documents 12 that's been provided by Commission Counsel is a document 13 that's entitled, Stoney Point First Nation, and it's 14 dated May 6th, 1993. And for the assistance of Counsel 15 it is 100-34-93. And I think this was referred to 16 yesterday. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 21 Exhibit 195? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I believe, Mr.
181 Commissioner, it is Exhibit 195. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I understand from Ms. 4 Vella it may be Exhibit 195. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's got a 6 different inquiry number. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: One of the problems of 8 course, Mr. Commissioner, is because we have many 9 duplicate documents I think. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Duplicate 11 system. I think the inquiry number is 9000-014. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right. It is 13 produced twice in the document. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 18 Q: And this might be a little awkward, 19 Mr. Tolsma but hopefully we can have a look see at it. I 20 wanted to ask you some questions about paragraph 9 in 21 that notice. 22 First of all actually, paragraph 8, that 23 notice, which when you looked at you confirmed was one 24 that you had signed and Maynard T. George had signed, it 25 says:
191 "We are video recording our actions and 2 taking these precautions to ensure 3 accurate attempts are made to all 4 concerned and for the safety of all 5 Parties." 6 Were you, in fact, video recording your 7 actions at the time, that is, in or around May 6th, 1993? 8 A: Most of them, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And do you -- who was doing 10 the video recordings? 11 A: Mainly Maynard T. 12 Q: Okay. And do you know where those 13 video recordings are? 14 A: I don't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: He -- he probably still has them or I 17 wouldn't have the faintest idea. 18 Q: Okay. Do you -- and maybe you don't 19 know, but if you do, perhaps you can tell us what all 20 Maynard T. recorded in his video recordings? 21 A: I don't know. He -- he recorded 22 quite a bit. He recorded everything. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: At least he tried. 25 Q: Okay. So, would that include your
201 entrance onto the land? 2 A: He probably did. 3 Q: Okay. And I understand as part of 4 that entrance you would have cut a lock or cut some part 5 of the gate to get entrance. Would that have been 6 recorded? 7 A: Later on. 8 Q: Later on? Yeah. Would that have 9 been recorded by Maynard T. George, do you know? 10 A: I -- I couldn't say. 11 Q: Okay. And then I want to take you to 12 paragraph 9 which says: 13 "We are not hindering the elected 14 Kettle Point Council or people from 15 joining us, but they do not represent 16 us in any way, shape or form." 17 And does that paragraph reflect your view 18 fairly about the relationship between your group that had 19 gone onto the Base and the elected Kettle Point Council? 20 A: Maynard T., he wrote a lot of these 21 documents up and he worded it like that, but I -- I just 22 went along with it. When they say they don't represent 23 us in any way -- 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: -- that's the way he wrote it out.
211 Q: Sure, but my question to you was, did 2 that reflect your view, you being one (1) of the 3 signatories to that document? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That -- that did reflect your view? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That Kettle Point Council did not 8 represent you in any way, shape or form? 9 A: Oh, they represented me, but like I 10 said, I had to just play along with the game. 11 Q: Okay. And -- and what was the game? 12 A: I didn't want anybody to know what, 13 actually, I was doing and I didn't -- like I said, I 14 didn't want no other group interfering because if you get 15 too many in there it's going to mess things up. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And a lot of problems are going to 18 start before it even happens. 19 Q: Okay. And when you say you didn't 20 want anyone to know what you are doing, does that mean 21 what you, personally, were doing? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: What you personally intended? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And did that mean, then, that you
221 would not have told the other people who entered with 2 you, which I'm -- for example, Maynard T. George, Janet 3 Cloud, Marlene Cloud, Robert and Ron George, what your 4 true intentions were? 5 A: The majority of it, yes. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: The majority of it, yes, because when 8 I went in everybody agreed that they would be peaceful. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: And later on everybody started saying 11 that, Well, they don't -- Kettle and Stony Point don't 12 represent us. That wasn't my view. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: That wasn't what I had intended but-- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- it -- and after a while they 17 started saying that we wanted to be a separate band. 18 Okay, I know you're going to ask this question later, so 19 I might as well do it all at once. 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: When -- to me this -- this helped me 22 out quite a bit because -- 23 Q: What? Sorry, what helped you out 24 quite a bit? 25 A: When they say, Well, Kettle Point
231 don't represent us, we want to be a separate band. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Okay, the Government hears this and 4 they're -- they're going to take notice. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And they take a lot of notice, so I 7 just kept quiet because it -- it helps me out because 8 they're there with me and they're pretty well -- we're 9 all working together, the Government sees it and if they 10 say, Well, these people want to be a separate band, 11 they're going to take notice and they're going to start 12 complaining, they're going to start talking. At least 13 they're talking; it got them talking. So, what I had 14 planned, it did work. 15 Q: Okay. I guess -- I guess my question 16 to you, though, is given the documents that we've seen 17 to-date and I'll take you to some more, it appears as 18 though in public the representations that you were making 19 was -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- that the group that was occupying 22 the base wanted to be a separate and distinct Band. Is 23 that -- 24 A: Yes, they did after a while, yes. 25 Q: Okay, and we'll go through some
241 documents later as well and we've seen some already but 2 it appears that from your public representations that you 3 were putting forward the position that the group that had 4 occupied the base, the Stoney Point First Nation -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- as you were calling it, was 7 separate and different and should be separate and apart 8 from the Kettle Point Council and Band. 9 A: The land base was separate. 10 Different? Well, I guess the name would be different. 11 Q: Sure. But in terms of the five (5) 12 questions that we went though earlier -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- it appears and -- and as I say, 15 we've looked at some documents and we'll look at some 16 more as we go along, that the public position that you 17 were putting forward at least after May 6th, or on May 18 6th, 1993 and after was that the land was land that 19 belonged to the Stoney Point First Nation as opposed to 20 the Kettle Point Council and Band. 21 A: The land belonged to the Kettle and 22 Stony Point First Nation. 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: I know what -- I know what you're 25 saying. I know the letters say that.
251 Q: Sure. 2 A: But, like I said, I -- I -- I signed 3 them, yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And it worked out good for me. 6 Q: Sure, okay. 7 A: And I got attention, so that's what I 8 wanted. 9 Q: Okay. So, your public 10 representations were that the Stoney Point First Nation 11 should be separate and apart, a different band, from the 12 Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 13 A: I signed papers to that -- 14 Q: Yeah -- 15 A: Yes, I did -- 16 Q: And that -- 17 A: -- but that's not what I had 18 intended. 19 Q: No, no, no, no. I understand that. 20 And your -- the presentation that you were making to the 21 public -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- in your memorandums and letters to 24 whom it may concern and letters to -- 25 A: That's --
261 Q: -- a variety of people -- 2 A: That's -- what they seen, yes. 3 Q: Right, were that the land should be 4 returned to the Stoney Point First Nation group and not 5 the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 6 A: I probably signed a paper like that, 7 yes. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: And, so that's your public 10 presentation -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You've told us that your personal 13 view was different -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the other question I had is, and 16 if you don't know that's fine, whether or not you 17 communicated to the other people who were occupying the 18 land that your personal view was different than your 19 public representations? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No, okay. And did you communicate to 22 Tom Bressette that your personal view was other and 23 different than your public representations? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And did you communicate to the
271 Kettle and Stony Point Band council -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- in any way that your personal view 4 was different? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: The next document I wanted to take 11 you to, Mr. Tolsma, is the document that in the 12 Commission's database is 4000322 and it is a press 13 release that's entitled Native Tents near Grenade Range. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Yeah. And you'll see that that is a 18 newspaper article by John Iverson (phonetic) for the 19 London Free Press. And if we turn to the second page of 20 that document and we looked at the -- it looks -- it's 21 the paragraph that's close to the bottom of what we see 22 there. It says: 23 "The Stoney Point Band will formalize 24 their breakaway from the Kettle and 25 Stony Point Band this month by holding
281 elections on May 27th to elect a chief 2 and council." 3 And if we go down to the next paragraph it 4 says: 5 "The Band held a membership drive 6 Monday and nominations will be accepted 7 on May 24th. Only those who declare 8 themselves Stoney Point and sign a 9 declaration of independence from the 10 Kettle and Stony Point Band, will be 11 eligible to vote in the election. 12 The only declared candidate for chief 13 at this point is Carl George." 14 And I wanted to take you through a couple 15 of the points there and that is whether or not you agree 16 that in May of 2000-- sorry, 1993, there was an attempt 17 by the group who was on the base to formalize their 18 breakaway from the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 19 A: If there was any papers drawn up to 20 that I can't remember. 21 Q: You don't recall? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall there being 24 election held in May of 2000 -- 1993? 25 A: Yes.
291 Q: And you were a candidate for chief? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And do you agree with what's 4 there that the Band held a membership drive and 5 nominations were to be accepted and only those who 6 declare themselves Stoney Point and sign a declaration of 7 independence from the Kettle and Stony Point Band will be 8 eligible to vote, was in fact there a membership drive 9 that you recall? 10 A: Maynard T. drew up a membership of 11 the people that lived and the heirs that lived at Stoney 12 Point, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And was there a declaration 14 that people were expected to agree to that they were 15 Stoney Point and independent from the Kettle and Stony 16 Point Band? 17 A: I can't recall if there was any paper 18 signed, no. 19 Q: Okay. Was there an expectation that 20 you knew about that the people who would be voting in the 21 May 1993 election would be those who were accepting that 22 they were Stoney Point -- Stoney Point Band and not 23 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 24 A: There could have. I can't recall 25 that part.
301 Q: Okay. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 3 wonder if we could have this article be made the next 4 exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-207. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 207. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-207: Document 4000322 London Free 9 Press article "Native Tents 10 Near Grenade Range" May 11 18/'93 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: The next document that I wanted to 15 take you to, Mr. George -- sorry, Mr. Tolsma I apologize, 16 I'm sorry, is a document and I think you'll see it in the 17 volume in front of you at Tab 11. And for the assistance 18 of Counsel, it's Inquiry Document 2000665 and it's a 19 letter from John Carson to the OPP Superintendent dated 20 May 20th, 1993. 21 And what I wanted to turn your attention 22 to, Mr. Tolsma, is if you turn over to the page that's 23 entitled, Chronology of Events, do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you'll see at the bottom of that
311 page, the last paragraph and it's dated 1980, it says: 2 "The issues has become a situation of 3 who should be eligible to negotiate and 4 receive the return of the Military 5 Base. There has been an ongoing 6 disagreement of this issue between the 7 elected Band and the unofficial Stoney 8 Point Band." 9 In your view as of May 20th of 1993, was 10 that an accurate description that there was an issue 11 about who should be eligible to negotiate and receive the 12 return of the Military Base, that is, whether it should 13 be the Kettle and Stony Point Band or the Stoney Point 14 Band? 15 A: Well, I guess there was a lot of 16 people that wanted to be part of it. 17 Q: Does -- the question, though, was, 18 does that last paragraph -- is -- in your view, is that 19 accurate that as of May of 1993, there was an issue about 20 who should be eligible to both negotiate and receive the 21 return of the Military Base? That is, should it be -- 22 A: There was an issue, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And if we turn over to the 24 next page of that document, which is -- says May -- 25 sorry, says, 1993, you'll see in the second paragraph it
321 says: 2 "Members of the Stoney Point First 3 Nation have occupied a portion of the 4 Ipperwash Military Base since May 7th, 5 1993. They have requested no outside 6 involvement or participation from any 7 other organization." 8 And I think you've told us a number of 9 times in your evidence that you made that request and 10 that was something that you wanted? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And then it goes on to say: 13 "However, in recent days, several non- 14 Stoney Point people have also begun an 15 occupation near the site of the Stoney 16 Point People." 17 And do you know whether or not, in 1993, 18 that was true; there were non-Stoney Point people in the 19 occupation that were staying at the Base? 20 A: I wouldn't say they were non-Stoney 21 Point, because there was a lot of people that had -- 22 their parents and grandparents owned land there, too. 23 Q: Okay. So, just so I'm clear, so far 24 as you knew, at least in the summer of 1993, there was no 25 one there who you would characterize as outside
331 involvement -- 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: -- or someone from another 4 organization? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And we've looked at, already, 7 a document that for the assistance of Counsel, is 8 Document 2002612 and I think you'll find it at Tab 18 of 9 your binder, which is a letter from Beacock to the OPP 10 Superintendent? 11 Sure, okay. Sorry, Mr. Commissioner, just 12 in terms of housekeeping, Ms. Vella asked me whether or 13 not the last document I referred Mr. Tolsma to ought to 14 be made an exhibit and it probably makes good sense to do 15 that? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-208. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-208. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-208: Document 200665 May 20/'93 21 Fax from J.F. Carson, 22 Inspector OPP to C.J. Coles, 23 Chief Supt. OPP re First 24 Nations Occupation CFB 25 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Prov.
341 Park, Chronology of Kettle 2 and Stony Point Bands 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Okay. Now, the document I've just 6 referred you to, Mr. Tolsma, has also been made an 7 exhibit and it's Exhibit 178. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 12 one seventy-eight (178). Is it one twenty-eight (128) or 13 one seventy-eight (178)? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: One seventy-eight 15 (178). 16 MS. KAREN JONES: One seven eight (178). 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: And it appears from that document, 22 and I just want to see if this is consistent with your 23 recollection, that initially on May the 6th, 1993 there 24 was a number of people with tents that were in an area by 25 the target ranges, near Highway 21.
351 Do you know whether or not when people 2 moved onto the base that was where they were staying? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And it goes on, if we look down 5 on May 18th, 1993 that: 6 "Chief Carl George cut a lock from a 7 chain that secured a gate onto the base 8 property from 21 Highway. Several 9 vehicles and small structures were 10 moved onto the base property." 11 And is that accurate, is -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- that was -- yes. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me, please. My 15 concern is only that I took Mr. Tolsma to this document 16 and all of these events and asked him whether they were 17 accurate or not and similarly with many of the documents 18 that we've reviewed this morning, I don't want to unduly 19 restrict My Friend's ability to cross-examine but if 20 we're just confirming accuracy in these documents, I did 21 take the -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- Witness through it 24 thoroughly. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely.
361 I'm not sure what the point of this examination is. We 2 did go through that and those questions were asked and 3 answered, but you may have another purpose. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: I do, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: And if we go on to the 7 next page -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- under May 20th 1993, 10 there's a -- 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: -- notation that Maynard George 14 advises Sergeant E.B. Beacock: 15 "That due to the stolen vehicle being 16 driven through a gate at the military 17 base, his people have agreed to 18 initiate a plan to record the movement 19 of their people onsite." 20 Now, do you know whether or not that there 21 was any plan that was put in place to record the movement 22 of the occupiers? 23 A: Like I said, he recorded quite a bit 24 of stuff. I wasn't by him constantly. 25 Q: Right.
371 A: He went out on his own and he 2 recorded whatever he wanted. 3 Q: Okay. And if we go on to -- if you 4 look at the fourth page, sorry fifth page, of that 5 document, you'll see that there is a page. It's numbered 6 page 1 and it starts off saying, "First Nations 7 occupation" and it says "involves persons associates". 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Let me just move on while we check 12 something, Mr. Tolsma. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are we still 17 looking at the same document? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: No, we're just going to 19 check because it sounds like my version of the document 20 is different and I just want to make sure that we have 21 the accurate number. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, my 23 document has three (3) pages. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25
381 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: And, Mr. Tolsma, after you and the 3 others were occupying the Base as of May and June of 4 1993, can you tell me whether you had discussions with 5 Tom Bressette and/or the Kettle and Stony Point Band 6 Council about what you were doing and why you were doing 7 it? 8 A: I can't recall that part, no. Of 9 course, we met with them after. We met with them quite a 10 few times, but I can't recall that one right there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: May have, I -- I couldn't say. 13 Q: Okay. One (1) of the documents that 14 we have been provided with by the Commission is a 15 document entitled, Kettle and Stony Point Council, and it 16 says, "Important Notice" and it's dated June the 7th, 17 1993. 18 And for the assistance of Counsel, it is 19 part of a set of documents that are numbered 2001235 and 20 I think you'll see that at your Tab 23 in your book. 21 If you turn over four (4) pages in your 22 tab, Mr. Tolsma, do you see the document that's entitled, 23 Kettle and Stony Point Council? 24 A: Yes, I got it here. 25 Q: It's the fourth in mine. And going
391 through that document, we'll -- part way down, you'll see 2 that as -- on Wednesday, June the 8th, there was a 3 meeting scheduled with the Chief and Council on June the 4 9th, a general band membership meeting and then on June 5 the 10th a meeting with the location ticket holders from 6 Stoney Point. 7 Does that help you in recalling whether or 8 not you or others that you know of had a meeting with the 9 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There was a lot of -- like I said, 13 there was a -- back then there was a lot of meetings like 14 this. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: There was quite a few of them, so -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: It's hard to -- hard to say. 19 Q: Okay. And if you turn over to the 20 next page you'll see the second last paragraph says that: 21 "Finally, it is our hope that a draft 22 terms of reference in relation to a 23 Memorandum of Understanding concerning 24 the negotiations will be discussed at 25 the general band meeting on Wednesday
401 evening, too." 2 Can you tell us whether or not in June of 3 1993 you or others from the Base were having discussions 4 with the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council about coming 5 up with a terms of reference that would govern the 6 negotiations for the return of the land? 7 A: Once again, I -- I can't remember 8 that part. I don't know. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And, Mr. George, you've been taken a 14 couple of times now to another docket -- document which 15 is a letter from the OPP dated June the 11th, 1993 signed 16 by -- and that is in your binder at Tab 24, I believe. 17 And for the assistance of Counsel it is 18 2002536 and it happens to be Exhibit 182 as well. 19 And you were asked some questions in that 20 document regarding the land claim and the scope of the 21 land claim? Do you recall that, that it was according to 22 this document, from Ravenswood Road east of Parkhill and 23 north to Goderich with the exception of the Village of 24 Grand Bend? 25 A: I remember asking -- being asked,
411 yes. 2 Q: Okay. And I believe that your 3 evidence was that you didn't recall that being the 4 discussion on that date. 5 A: No. 6 Q: And that in any event that wasn't 7 your view of the scope of the land claim? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: There's another document, Mr. Tolsma, 10 in -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 12 just before you go on, that last document, those were the 13 exact questions that he was asked, those were the exact 14 answers he gave. I'm just wondering if you're going to 15 do more of this, how that's going to assist us. 16 If you have a different purpose, perhaps 17 you can explain what it is that you're doing. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. Mr. 19 Commissioner, there's another document that I wanted to 20 take Mr. Tolsma to which was not -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- referred to by Ms. 23 Vella and which contained, it looked like similar 24 information. And so what I would like to ask is, the 25 circumstances, whether or not this witness knows about
421 this next document and whether or not it was something 2 that he had knowledge of and whether or not it was 3 something he endorsed and whether or not it was something 4 that fairly reflected the views of the Base -- the people 5 at the Base. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 7 not simply going over the same documents and asking the 8 same questions -- you're assuring us that you have 9 another objective? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: I do have another 11 objective and I would like to go to -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the next document if 14 that's okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 20 Q: And for the assistance of Counsel, 21 this is Document 2001517 and it's a letter dated July 22 16th, 1993. And it is to the Superintendent of the OPP 23 from Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in our 25 materials, is it in the binder?
431 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 3 document in this binder? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: That document is not in 5 the binder and it was not referred to by Ms. Vella. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 9 Q: And, Mr. Tolsma, you'll see that this 10 is a letter from Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock and if you 11 want to take a second to look at it, you'll see it refers 12 to a phone call received from Maynard George who informed 13 he had been in contact with Marion Boyd in an effort with 14 -- of the Attorney General of Ontario in an effort to set 15 up their own police force. 16 George indicated they would be patrolling 17 First Nations territories between Ravenswood and Goderich 18 and he also suggested they may put a boat on patrol. And 19 it goes on. 20 Now, I wanted to ask you, Mr. Tolsma, 21 whether or not you knew whether Maynard George was having 22 contacts with others including the Attorney General of 23 Ontario or the OPP about the issue of setting up a police 24 force in an area that would be patrolled? 25 A: I wouldn't have the faintest idea.
441 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Okay. And does this -- if -- if, in 4 fact, Maynard T. George was having these contacts and 5 making these representations, were they things that were 6 being done with the knowledge and consent of the group 7 who was living on the Base or was he acting on his own? 8 A: He probably was acting on his own 9 because there's a lot of stuff that he done that I didn't 10 even know about. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And we heard some questions and some 16 answers yesterday about a meeting that was held between 17 members of the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council and 18 the Stoney Point Council at the office of Gord Peters, do 19 you recall that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And were you present during 22 those discussions? 23 A: I -- I was at one (1) of them -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- but I don't remember who all was
451 actually there. 2 Q: Okay. And what I wanted to do, Mr. 3 George, because this is something that I don't believe is 4 in the documents before you, is provide you with a copy 5 of a letter, and for the assistance of Counsel, it's 6 Document 900030 to see if this assists in refreshing your 7 memory about what went on and if you can help us with 8 some of the details of it? 9 And could I -- could I get a copy of this 10 passed to Mr. Tolsma and I have a copy for the 11 Commissioner as well. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 THE WITNESS: I still can't remember that 17 day. I can't remember this, no. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Okay, you can't remember a specific 21 date when you or others from your group met with the 22 Kettle and Stony Point Council at Gord Peters' office, is 23 that right? 24 A: No, I can't. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether in July
461 of 1993 that there was a draft agreement or at least 2 agreement in principle that had been reached between the 3 Stoney Point Council and the Kettle and Stony Point Band 4 Council about how they would proceed with negotiations? 5 A: Vaguely, I remember a little, but not 6 -- not too much of it. 7 Q: Okay. If you turn to the second page 8 of that document, you'll see at the bottom that there is 9 a paragraph regarding: 10 "The Stoney Point Council has further 11 instructed me to advise you of the 12 following fundamental principles 13 embraced by their membership which 14 must, at least, be recognized and 15 respected throughout the process." 16 And it goes: 17 "1. The Stoney Point Band must be 18 given full Band status pursuant to the 19 provisions of the Indian Act. 20 2. The Stoney Point Reserve Number 43 21 must be returned to the Stoney Point 22 Band. 23 3. Compensation must be made to the 24 Stoney Point Band. 25 4. Compensation to the Kettle Point
471 Band. 2 And: 3 5. Throughout this process the 4 membership of the Stoney Point Band, 5 particularly Elders, will not be 6 encouraged to leave the Stoney Point." 7 Can you tell us whether or not in July you 8 and/or others from the Stoney Point group were taking the 9 position that that group should be given full Band 10 status? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I have to say probably, but I -- I 15 just can't -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- can't say for sure. 18 Q: Okay, and were you or others from the 19 Stoney Point Band taking the position that the Stoney 20 Point Reserve 43 should be returned to the Stoney Point 21 Band as opposed to the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 22 A: Probably. 23 Q: Okay. And that there ought to be 24 compensation to both groups? 25 A: Yes.
481 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, if I 2 could have this be made the next exhibit, I'd appreciate 3 that. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-209. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-209. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-209: Document No. 9000030 Letter 8 to Chiefs of Ontario, Attn: 9 Gord Peters From Ron C. 10 George re: Agreement of 11 working relationships Kettle 12 point/Stoney Point July 13 27/'93 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: And do you know whether or not, Mr. 17 Tolsma, that agreement ever got signed in July or August 18 or September of 1993 as between the Kettle Point and -- 19 Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Stoney Point group? 20 A: I can't remember if there was one 21 signed or not. 22 Q: Okay. Can you recall whether or not, 23 as of September 1993, that -- whether you or others had 24 discussions with the Kettle and Stony Point First Nations 25 council about the fact that, in their view, there was no
491 working agreement between the two (2) parties and that 2 they would proceed without that? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: There probably was a meeting and that 7 probably was said, yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I said, again, I -- I can't remember 10 without seeing any document to that -- 11 Q: Okay. Well, maybe I can give you 12 some assistance. We've been provided by the Commission 13 with a set of minutes of meetings from the Kettle and 14 Stony Point Council -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- and so far as I know, they're not 17 numbered in the document database but I wanted to refer 18 to the minutes of meetings from September 13th, 1993 -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- and I'm not sure if we can readily 21 put it before you, but I'll let you know what that 22 document says. It says, in part, there was a discussion 23 on the working group: 24 "This agreement was acknowledged by 25 both groups on July 14th at the Chiefs
501 of Ontario Office. This would be to 2 work in co-operation. The splinter 3 group is looking to create their own 4 Band. After two (2) months delay, 5 Council decided not to sign the 6 document due to the fact that the other 7 group created another document and did 8 not sign and return a copy to the 9 Council." 10 And there's a Motion Number 1. 11 "Due to lack of response from community 12 and the spirit of intent within the 13 working agreement dated July 14th, 14 1993, and which Council endorsed on 15 July 14th, 1993 to be rescinded and 16 that the negotiation proceed for the 17 return of the Stoney Point lands to be 18 advanced and with no further delays." 19 Did you -- was there a communication to 20 you or do you recall, sorry, let me -- if you turn to Tab 21 9 of that -- 22 A: This one? 23 Q: -- volume that was just handed to 24 you. If you wanted to look at the minute yourself. 25 Please take the chance to that.
511 A: I can remember a little bit about 2 that one there once you read it. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I can remember there was an agreement 5 written up and I can remember that Maynard T. changed it 6 and that's when a lot of people started disagreeing with 7 a lot of stuff. And I don't believe anything was ever 8 accomplished out of it, but Maynard T. re-wrote it. 9 Q: Re-wrote the Memorandum of Agreement? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And he re-wrote so it was something 12 other and different than what was agreed upon -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- by the two (2) groups? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And as a result of that, there was no 17 agreement? 18 A: That's right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Okay. In your brief, not the bound 23 one that was just handed to you but in the binder at Tab 24 31. And for the assistance of Counsel, this is 1007619. 25 There's a newspaper report from the Observer and it's by
521 Paul Morden and it's entitled, Kettle Point Chief 2 Welcomes Idea of Mediation. 3 And if you look at that document and if 4 you need a minute, Mr. Tolsma, let me know, it talks 5 about the Indian Commission of Ontario was mediating as 6 between Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Department of 7 National Defence at that time. Was that something that 8 you were aware of? 9 A: I don't have it here. What did you 10 say it -- 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, it's Tab 31 and 12 it's the second last page of that tab. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 15 A: Okay, I got it. 16 Q: Okay. And it goes on the last column 17 to say that: 18 "Chief Bressette and his Band Council 19 plans to include in the negotiations a 20 representative of the families that 21 held location tickets for Stony Point 22 land in 1942. The location tickets 23 were used at the time to indicate who 24 held title to the Native lands." 25 And were you aware whether or not in or
531 about that time that there was a desire on the part of 2 Kettle and Stony Point Band Council to include a 3 representative from the -- for the families that held 4 location tickets? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. And do you know whether or not 7 that ever became formalized in that there were people 8 appointed to the negotiation team? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And what I would like to do, 11 Mr. George, is provide -- sorry, Mr. Tolsma, is provide 12 you with a letter and for the assistance of Counsel it's 13 9000038 from the law office of Ronald C. George to the 14 Kettle Point First Nations attention Chief Tom Bressette. 15 I would just like you to have a look at 16 that and see if that's a document that you were aware of. 17 And whether it sets out your understanding of the 18 situation at the time? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Nine zero zero zero three eight 23 (900038). 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 wonder if I could have a copy of the document provided to
541 Mr. Tolsma? It might be easier for him. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 3 the -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: And I have a copy for 5 the Commissioner, too. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: And you'll see, Mr. Tolsma, that 12 there are, in essence, two (2) things mentioned in that 13 letter in the first paragraph was, there's a statement 14 that you and Don Goodwin of E. E. Hobbs Associates met 15 with Mr. George in September for the purpose of reviewing 16 the status of the above noted land claim. 17 Do you recall that meeting? 18 A: Not -- not specifically this one, 19 because there was quite a few of them. 20 Q: Okay. And then it goes to say, in 21 the second paragraph: 22 "I understand you are also open to the 23 appointment of two (2) members of the 24 Stoney Point community to a negotiation 25 team."
551 And is that consistent with your 2 understanding that there would be two (2) Stoney Point 3 people on the negotiating team? 4 A: At first, yes. 5 Q: Yeah, okay. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I must rise to make the 7 same -- raise the same concern I did a while ago. We 8 reviewed the negotiation team, the composition of the 9 negotiation team, the fact that Stoney Point had two (2) 10 people on it, the fact that Chief Carl George, as then 11 was, was a member of it, what occurred. 12 If there's something different, then, you 13 know, by all means this can be pursued, but if we're just 14 re-hashing what we established in-chief, I don't believe 15 that advances the interest of the Commission. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How do you 17 respond to that, Ms. Jones? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, from 19 my understanding in part from the evidence that was 20 elicited and in -- in a little bit from a question that 21 was asked by Mr. Ross -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- yesterday, there 24 were two (2) things apparently going on at the time, one 25 (1) was the negotiation team and one (1) was a retainment
561 of E. E. Hobbs and Associates. 2 I -- I have reviewed the transcripts. I 3 haven't seen that there is evidence elicited about what 4 the E. E. Hobbs matter involved in any kind of a 5 description and there are documents that we have and I 6 believe that this Witness, perhaps, can give some more 7 information about that. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: As I recollect, the 9 Witness testified that this individual, Mr. Goodwin, was 10 a researcher, that he gathered archival documents and 11 basically copied all the documents that were at the 12 Kettle Point Band Office and provided them to the Stoney 13 Point. Maybe the Witness can add further to that, but 14 that certainly was the evidence yesterday. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: He may be able to add 17 further to that and if I ask him a couple of questions, 18 perhaps we'll find out. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's go a 20 bit. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And before we 22 proceed, Mr. Commissioner, could I have this letter from 23 Ronald C. George dated September 21, 1993 made the next 24 exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-210.
571 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-210. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-210: Document No. 9000038, Letter 4 to Chief Tom Bressette, 5 Kettle Point First Nation 6 from Ron C. Orange re Stoney 7 Point Land Claim, September 8 21/'93 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Mr. Tolsma, in the cerlox bound, 12 Binder 2, on the side, that contains the minutes of the 13 Kettle and Stony Point group, if you turn to Tab 13 of 14 that doc -- of that bind -- of that bound book, you'll 15 see that that contains the minutes of the Chippewas of 16 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations council, Tuesday 17 November 2nd, 1993. 18 And if you turn over to page 2 of that 19 document... 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 21 that binder. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? This is -- 23 I -- Mr. Commissioner, as I understood, these were 24 documents that were provided to everyone. I don't have 25 the separate set of --
581 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the document. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: If you look at the second page of the 6 minutes, under the first bullet point and this is a 7 review of -- of the E.E. Hobbs and Associates retainer, 8 it says that E.E. Hobbs and Associates, they were 9 contracted to ident -- to identify if there were two (2) 10 bands or one (1) band. 11 And it goes on to say: 12 "Had a meeting with the other group in 13 Toronto last Friday, October 29, 1993 14 and clearly pointed out to them that it 15 was one (1) band and not two (2) 16 separate bands and that separation was 17 not in the cards. 18 They feel confident that this was 19 accepted by the other group and they're 20 now willing to consolidate and let's 21 negotiate from strength and not 22 division." 23 And first of all, Mr. Tolsma, do you 24 recall whether or not E.E. Hobbs and Associates were 25 contracted with to identify whether, in fact, there were
591 two (2) bands or one (1) band as between Kettle and Stony 2 Point band and the Stoney Point group? 3 A: No, I don't know. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall having any 5 meeting with E.E. Hobbs and Associates? 6 A: Oh yes. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall a meeting where 8 they -- the members of that group or persons from that 9 group told you that that there was one (1) band and not 10 two (2) separate bands -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- and that separation wasn't in the 13 cards? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And was that something that 16 you agreed with and/or accepted at the time? 17 A: I agreed with it, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 19 others in the Stoney Point Band group accepted and agreed 20 with that position at the time or whether -- 21 A: Some -- some people didn't. 22 Q: Okay. So, some did and some didn't? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Okay. 25
601 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you had told us, Mr. Tolsma that, 4 in your first day of evidence of here, and this is -- you 5 were talking about in the fall of 1993 being on the 6 negotiating committee and that there were problems and 7 the same problem came up time and time again. 8 And that problem, I take it, was the view 9 of some that there was or should be separation between 10 the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Stoney Point 11 group? 12 A: Some people had that outlook, yes. 13 Q: Right. And was that something that, 14 in your view, caused a rift between the negotiators for 15 Kettle and Stony Point band and the Stoney Point group? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. And was that one of the 18 reasons, in fact, that you weren't able to carry on with 19 those discussions? 20 A: Not only that, there was other 21 reasons. There was a lot of accusations thrown in there. 22 Q: Okay, about? 23 A: Anything. Anything and everything. 24 Q: Okay. And were those accusations 25 that were made in your -- if you know, by members of the
611 Kettle and Stony Point group against the Stoney Point 2 group or did the accusations go both ways? 3 A: Well, it was mainly one person, like 4 I mentioned -- 5 Q: Right. And you'd said that was Norm 6 Shawnoo. 7 A: Norm Shawnoo. He was chairing the 8 meeting and I got the outlook he didn't want us on the 9 committee and he just kept throwing things and -- at us 10 and I responded and it ended up in a lot of argument, a 11 lot of -- few people walked off and didn't want to be 12 bothered to arguing and... 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: It was just -- other than that, 15 everything else went pretty good. 16 Q: Okay. But, I take it at the end of 17 all those arguments after you and others had left that 18 there wasn't a representative or representatives of the 19 Stoney Point Band on the Stony Point and -- Kettle and 20 Stony Point negotiating group? 21 A: Well, some still stayed, yes. There 22 still was representatives there, yes. 23 Q: There was still representatives 24 there? 25 A: Oh yes.
621 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 2 those representatives were -- were advocating that there 3 be a separation between Kettle and Stony Point and -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- Stoney Point? They weren't or you 6 don't know? 7 A: I -- as long as I was there, I never 8 heard of any talks like that. 9 Q: Okay. I wanted to move into a 10 different area, Mr. Tolsma, and there was -- you've given 11 some evidence about your understanding of the guns that 12 were at the base and what the guns were used for. 13 A: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps this 15 would be a good point to take a morning break. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 18 agree, Ms. Jones, it is a good point for you? 19 We'll take a morning break now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:18 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:37 a.m. 25
631 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Mr. Tolsma, you had said in your 6 evidence that you were aware that one (1) person, that is 7 Marlin Simon, have a gun and that was a gun that was used 8 for hunting; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, we've heard evidence in this 11 Inquiry from a number of people about guns that they had 12 on the Base and I wanted to ask you whether or not you, 13 personally, ever went into Dudley George's trailer and 14 saw the contents of the trailer during the time that you 15 were involved with the people on the Base? 16 A: I was in the trailer, yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Of what contents do you -- 19 Q: Well, we had heard some evidence or 20 we --we anticipate that there will be evidence heard at 21 this Inquiry of people who saw guns in Dudley George's 22 trailer. Was that something that you saw? 23 A: I never seen any. 24 Q: Okay. And in terms of David George, 25 we heard evidence from him that while he was on the Base
641 that he purchased a sawed-off shotgun which was called 2 the, Bastard Blaster; were you aware of that? 3 A: I heard of it, but I never ever seen 4 it. 5 Q: Okay. And are you familiar with 6 Kelly's Hunting and Sporting Goods, a store in Inwood, 7 Ontario? 8 A: Again, I heard of it, but I've never 9 been there, no. 10 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you that 11 because one (1) of the documents that has been provided 12 by the Commission is a document, and for the assistance 13 of Counsel, it's 2005113 and those are notes from a 14 Detective Bell, and included in those notes is a summary 15 of information, apparently, regarding Kelly's Hunting and 16 Sporting Goods and there's an entry in that document at 17 page 9 of 11 and it says: 18 "The following is a firearm purchased 19 by Carl Otto George from Kelly's on 20 November 27th, 1992." 21 And it says: 22 "Inventory number 682, serial number 23 18792657." 24 And it says: 25 "Ruger Mini-14 223 calibre."
651 Did you purchase that gun from -- 2 A: You need a -- 3 Q: -- the store? 4 A: -- a guns -- a permit to buy -- buy 5 any kind of a gun, which I don't have. No, I didn't, but 6 I'd like to see if I signed it and where this document 7 came from because I don't even know where the place is. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: This is something I'd like to have. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: As far as I know you have to have a 12 AFC licence -- take a course in order to buy any kind of 13 a weapon. 14 Q: The next document I wanted to take 15 you to, Mr. Tolsma, is a document -- and I think you'll 16 find it at Tab 29 of your binder and for the assistance 17 of Counsel it's 2001810. 18 And it's an article from the Sarnia 19 Observer dated August 25, 1993. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 21 document is an Exhibit. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One eighty- 24 eight (188). 25
661 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 4 Q: It's Tab 29. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you'll see in the middle section 9 of that document in the middle column, it says: 10 "Acting Chief Carl George calls for 11 calm and asked Band members for 12 cooperation to prevent a recurrence of 13 the 1990 arm standoff between Mohawk 14 warriors and Government forces near 15 Oka, Quebec. We want to settle this in 16 a nonviolent way Chief George said. 17 If it comes to a standoff I will have 18 to take these people off the land. I'm 19 responsible for the safety of children 20 here." 21 And I wanted to ask you, Mr. George, do 22 you recall giving an interview to George Matheson around 23 this time? You'll see he's -- 24 A: I remember doing the interview, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And did you have a concern at
671 the time that the matter potentially at the base could 2 escalate to a standoff -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- if people didn't -- weren't calm, 5 they weren't cooperative? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was the language that you would 8 have used an armed standoff like the 1990 - or standoff 9 between Mohawk warriors and the Government? Was that 10 something you had in your mind? 11 A: Well there -- like in Oka there was 12 the warriors up there and at the same time we had a 13 different -- there was word that they were going to send 14 the -- like the army from Quebec, the Vandoos. They're 15 supposed to be a fearless outfit to get the people off 16 the land. 17 And at that time I didn't want anything 18 like that to happen. So, yes, I was concerned about the 19 -- the people and the children and I probably would have 20 asked them if that ever escalated any further. 21 Q: Okay. Just so I understand you, you 22 said there was talk about the Quebec Vandoos, was that 23 something in relation to the Ipperwash base or is that 24 something -- 25 A: Yes.
681 Q: -- in relation -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- to Oka? 4 A: Yes. A little earlier when we on 5 there, they -- they came in. They were about the last 6 outfit that came in and they tried to intimidate us by 7 marching up and down, doing their exercise on the 8 roadside near where the trailer were, the people were. 9 And they made it look like they were ready 10 to start evacuating and -- but they never did. They 11 continued back to the grenade range and starting throwing 12 grenades. And they -- if I recall right, they were there 13 for a good three (3) hours. 14 Q: Okay. So, if I understand what 15 you're saying, in 1993 one of the groups that was 16 training at the base was the Vandoos -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and they were training in the area 19 of the rifle range and the grenade range? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you have any conversations at 22 or about that time with the person in charge of the 23 base -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- about any concerns you had about
691 the Vandoos? 2 A: We didn't even know they were coming. 3 Q: Okay. And you said that you -- you 4 had the view that they would want to evict you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what was that based on? Did you 7 have conversations with any of the Vandoos? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Conversations with anyone at the 10 base? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you have information from anyone 13 else -- 14 A: I used to be in cadets -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- when I was younger and I'm -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: -- and then I have a little bit of 19 knowledge of the procedures and they were presenting arms 20 and everybody knew that they were the vandoos, because 21 they had them on their arms and when I was working in the 22 camp earlier, they were in there before, so I knew who 23 they -- who they were. 24 Q: So, they were a group that had 25 trained at the base before?
701 A: Yes, they have trained there before. 2 Q: Sure, and they trained there while it 3 was occupied and when it wasn't occupied? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Okay. And so the fact that they were 6 training there while the base was being occupied by the 7 Stoney Point group, you thought had some particular 8 significance? 9 A: Usually they train in the built-up 10 area. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: They don't train out on the side of 13 the road. 14 Q: Okay. And so the fact of the 15 location of their training from that you took that they 16 were potentially going to be a problem for you? 17 A: I thought it could be a problem, yes. 18 Q: Okay, and -- 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: -- that problem could be that they 21 would to evict you? 22 A: They -- well, I thought -- well, 23 that, yes. 24 Q: Okay. And that wasn't something that 25 you had discussions with at the base or you had any
711 information about. That was just your -- your view about 2 it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And in this article, when it 5 says: 6 "If it comes to a stand-off, I will 7 have to take these people off the 8 land." 9 What -- what were you meaning when you 10 said if it comes to a stand-off? 11 A: The women and children. 12 Q: No, no, sorry. What would the stand- 13 off be? 14 A: Between the army. 15 Q: Okay. The army and the occupiers? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And from your perception, what 18 would the stand off look like? What steps, if any would 19 the army or the Department of National Defence take that 20 would make it different than what was going on as of 21 August 1993? 22 A: What I had imagined that they would 23 try to remove us by force. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And we talked about it and a lot of
721 people -- a lot of the -- a lot of the guys said we're 2 not -- we're not leaving. And if it takes it, we'll take 3 the beating. 4 But, we had one (1) guy with a camcorder 5 to tape everything. He was the one that was supposed to 6 stand a little further away. We had a few guys appointed 7 that were young that could run fast and they were 8 supposed to be in one spot and if it ever came to that, 9 we'd have it recorded -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- because we had planned that we 12 weren't going to fight back, we'd just let them do 13 whatever they want and we'd take the beating. 14 Q: Okay. So, just so I'm clear, as of 15 August 1993, you and others had made a plan that in the 16 event, the Department of National Defence or the army 17 tried to remove you, you would hold your ground -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- is that right? And you would 20 record the situation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you wouldn't fight? 23 A: No. 24 Q: But on the other hand, you wouldn't 25 leave?
731 A: That's right. 2 Q: Okay. And I take it, throughout the 3 course of time you were at the base no situation like 4 that ever happened? 5 A: That never happened, no. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And did you also have concerns, Mr. 11 Tolsma, that the OPP could move in and try and remove you 12 from the base? 13 A: Thought about it, and they had the 14 right too, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And similarly did you have any 16 plans, you and others of the Stoney Point group, as to 17 what you would do if the OPP did move in and try and 18 evict you from the base? 19 A: We'd use the same tactic. 20 Q: Okay. And I -- did you have any -- 21 you've talked a little bit earlier in your evidence about 22 the relationship that you had with the OPP -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and someone that you identified as 25 Bouwman --
741 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- do you recall that? Did you -- 3 did you ever have discussions with him or any other of 4 the police that you were dealing with about your 5 concerns? 6 A: With my concerns? 7 Q: Concerns about the OPP coming in and 8 taking over? 9 A: I can't remember if that was 10 specifically about the concerns of the OPP coming in. I 11 can't remember that. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it throughout the 13 entire time you were at the Base that never occurred? 14 A: It never occurred, no. 15 Q: Okay. And you talked a little bit, 16 Mr. Tolsma, about threats. You had been asked on your 17 first day of evidence about, for example, threats or -- 18 threats that you perceived from the Kettle and Stony 19 Point Band and asking from some assistance from the OPP 20 regarding that. Do you remember that? 21 A: I'd have to see a document to -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- refresh my memory, but -- 24 Q: Sure. In your transcript, and this 25 is the transcript from February 9th, 2005 at page 67,
751 there's a -- a portion of a document was read to you: 2 "Carl George asked OPP for assistance. 3 He intimates possibility of violence by 4 other band members against Stoney Point 5 group." 6 And the question was, do you recall having 7 a concern in that regard and making a request for 8 assistance and the answer was: 9 "I can remember a little bit. Like, I 10 probably did call them because there 11 was a lot -- like I said, a lot of 12 people didn't like us being there and 13 at that time a lot of people, because 14 we were on the land, said we were on 15 their parent's --grandparent's property 16 and they didn't like the idea of us 17 being there." 18 And then the question: 19 "So, these were other people from the 20 Kettle and Stony Point community who 21 you had concerns?" 22 And the answer was, "Yes." 23 Does that -- does that refresh your memory 24 a bit? 25 A: A bit, yes.
761 Q: Okay. And we saw yesterday, the 2 clipping that you got that you -- that was, in your view, 3 a threat and that was made an exhibit and my question to 4 you was, over the course of time that you were at the 5 base or you were Chief of the Stoney Point group or 6 representing yourself at Chief -- as Chief, did you get 7 threats from anyone else other than your concerns about 8 possible retaliation from the Kettle and Stoney Point 9 Group? 10 A: I just got the one (1) clipping out 11 of the newspaper with writing on it. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: I took that as a threat. 14 Q: Sure. Did you have any concern while 15 you were the Chief that you were vulnerable from other 16 people or vulnerable that other people might try to in 17 some way harm you or threaten you? 18 A: I wasn't... 19 Q: Other than from the Kettle and Stony 20 Point group? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? And in fact, nothing like that 23 ever happened? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And I want to move now -- on
771 now to 1994 because we've heard some evidence that early 2 in 1994 the Government announced that it was returning 3 the Base and that that was something that was on the 4 budget for 1994. 5 Were you aware of that Government 6 announcement? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you see that as progress -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- towards resolving the matter? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And in or about 1994, were you 13 aware of a position from the Federal Government that it 14 would only negotiate with the Kettle and Stony Point 15 Band -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- regarding the return to the -- of 18 the land and not -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- the Stoney Point group? Okay. 21 And I wanted to take you to a document, 22 Mr. Tolsma, and it is -- it's Document 1003690 and in 23 your volume it's Tab 40, if you could have a look at it. 24 It's a Sarnia Observer article, Stoney 25 Point Natives Brave Cold Waiting for Talks.
781 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you'll see on the last column -- 4 sorry, that's not the document. Maybe I said the number 5 incorrectly for you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's in the 7 right tab but just two (2) or three (3) behind this one. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. I'm looking at 9 the document entitled, Stoney Point Natives Brave Cold 10 Waiting for Talks. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 14 Q: And if you want to take a minute to 15 read the entire article, Mr. Tolsma, you ought to do that 16 but what I was particularly wanting to take you to was 17 the last column of that document. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And you'll see that in the middle 22 paragraph of the last column it says: 23 "Chief George said he met once with 24 Kettle and Stony Point officials but 25 the groups are working separately. I
791 don't want to jeopardize the Stoney 2 Point people. I have to do what's best 3 for them he said." 4 And I understand that this article was 5 dated January 20th, 1994. As at that time, Mr. Tolsma, 6 that is early in 1994, was the Kettle and Stony Point 7 Band and the Stoney Point group working separately 8 regarding the negotiations? 9 A: I don't think so. 10 Q: Okay. Were there issues at that time 11 regarding the nego -- sorry, let me just go back a little 12 bit. 13 Were members from the Stoney Point Band 14 still on the negotiating team, do you recall? 15 A: I believe there was, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And was there a concern at 17 that time about who was on the negotiating team and what 18 their role was? 19 A: An issue? 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: I don't think so. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. I wonder, Mr. 23 Commissioner, if that article could be made the next 24 exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-211.
801 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-211. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-211: Document No. 1003690 Sarnia 4 Observer article "Stoney 5 Point Natives Brave Cold 6 Waiting For Talks" Jan. 7 20/'94 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 10 Q: And I wanted to take you to another 11 article, Mr. Tolsma and for the assistance of Counsel 12 it's 1007619 and it a Sarnia Observer article entitled, 13 Ipperwash Return Faces Complications, and it's dated 14 February 24, 1994. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: The document should be, Ipperwash 19 Return Faces Complications. And that's not in the binder 20 that's in front of you, Mr. Tolsma. 21 A: It's not in here? 22 Q: I'm sorry about that but it will be 23 up on the screen. And what I particularly wanted to take 24 you to was the bottom of the first column, starting at 25 the paragraph:
811 "But the nearly year long occupation 2 has been led by a group calling itself 3 the Stoney Point Band. It maintains 4 that it is independent of Kettle Point 5 and should be included in the talks. 6 We want our recognition back and we 7 want equal representation at the 8 negotiating table, said Stoney Point 9 Chief Carl George. We have our Council 10 and we have our lawyers, he said. They 11 just can't forget about us." 12 Does that assist you in recalling whether 13 or not there was an issue as of February 1994 about who 14 was negotiating and the Stoney Point group's 15 representation? 16 A: At the time, we wanted some -- some 17 of the people down there that wanted to be on the 18 negotiating team. That way, they -- they were satisfied 19 and they were represented equally. 20 Q: Some of the people down there, 21 referring to some of the people from the Stoney Point 22 group at the base? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And they wanted to be on the 25 negotiating group?
821 A: Yes. 2 Q: And they weren't at the time? 3 A: Not at the time -- 4 Q: No. 5 A: -- but this is where we first 6 started, because they wanted to be on the negotiating 7 team. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know, as of 1994, 9 whether you or others from the Stoney Point group were 10 taking steps to inform other groups or organizations that 11 you were a separate and independent group from the Kettle 12 and Stony Point Band? 13 A: Prior to that? '94? 14 Q: As -- as -- as of February -- as of 15 January and February 1994 were you continuing to let 16 people know that you considered yourself separate? 17 A: Like I said, Maynard T. wrote a lot 18 of letters and stuff and I -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- there might have been something 21 like that, I can't say for sure. 22 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me see if I can 23 assist you here a little bit. 24 I have a document, and for the assistance 25 of Counsel, it's 9000069, and it's a letter dated January
831 28th, 1994 and it's signed by a number of persons 2 including yourself. 3 And it's sent to Health and Welfare Canada 4 and what I'll do, Mr. Tolsma, is have a copy of the 5 letter passed up to you and you can have a look at it. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And if you just want to take a minute 11 to read that document, Mr. Tolsma. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Well, this document here -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- I can recall it. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: It was Maynard T. who wrote this up 20 and it was meant to get assistance for the people that 21 needed it and those that needed help with getting their 22 drugs. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: It -- they tried to, you know -- 25 Q: Okay.
841 A: -- get help to get their drugs and 2 dental work or whatever they needed. 3 Q: Okay. I understand from looking at 4 the first paragraph of the document that at the time, 5 Kettle and Stony Point was proposing that there be a 6 transfer of health services back to the Band. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. And I understand from looking 9 at this document that you and others were taking the 10 position that any concerns or issues regarding the health 11 services of the Stoney Point people had to be directed to 12 Stoney Point not Kettle and Stony Point. Is that right? 13 If you look at -- 14 A: If it was -- 15 Q: -- the third paragraph -- 16 A: -- yes -- 17 Q: -- of that document? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And it goes on in the fourth 20 paragraph to say, 21 "We will not be bound by the terms and 22 conditions of any arrangement reached 23 by your ministry or your agents or 24 representatives concerning the transfer 25 of health services to Kettle Point
851 First nations and Stony Point First 2 Nations." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You recall that. And if you look at 5 the last page, I wanted to ask you about this, Mr. 6 Tolsma, because this is one of the documents that doesn't 7 appear to have been signed by Maynard T. George, but 8 rather by a -- by the chief and the councillors of the 9 Stoney Point group. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: You wanted to know what? 14 Q: I said, this is a document that 15 you've said that this is something Maynard T. George 16 drafted. 17 A: Yes? 18 Q: But I see that it is signed by 19 yourself and the Councilors at that time of the Stoney 20 Point group -- 21 A: Yes? 22 Q: -- and that you are one (1) of the 23 people -- you and Glenn George -- are the people to be 24 contacted -- 25 A: Yes?
861 Q: -- if Health and Welfare Canada had 2 any questions about your position? 3 A: Yes? 4 Q: Okay. Was this, in fact, something 5 that you and the Council agreed upon that reflected your 6 views? 7 A: Yes, we talked about it. 8 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I'd ask that 9 this be made... 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, 11 what -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Sorry, that is 13 already, Mr. Commissioner. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Exhibit P-200. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: And I take it that as the spring 20 progressed, you and others continued to make efforts on 21 behalf of the Stoney Point Group to assert your 22 separateness from Kettle and Stony Point Band? 23 A: Of '94? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Probably.
871 Q: Okay. I'm going to pass up to you, 2 Mr. Tolsma, a document, and for the assistance of Counsel 3 it's 9000094 and it appears to be a letter from Anthony 4 Ross to Ronald Irwin written on behalf of Stoney Point 5 and I wanted to have that passed up to you to have a look 6 at and there's a copy for the Commissioner. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And this is Exhibit 201. And it 11 refers in that document, Mr. Tolsma, to a petition that 12 was signed by a hundred and thirteen (113) band members, 13 a hundred and four (104), which have band numbers and the 14 other nine (9), although they're not part of the Stoney 15 Point First Nation do not have band numbers. 16 Were you aware of the petition or a 17 petition that was signed? 18 A: I can just vaguely remember a 19 petition, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And can you tell us, was that 21 -- was that petition meant to represent all of the people 22 that had a claim or a special claim to the Stoney Point-- 23 A: If there was a petition done up, it-- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- just refer to whoever signed.
881 Q: Okay. So, that group, the numbers of 2 a hundred and thirteen (113) band members isn't 3 significant in terms of that represents the people who -- 4 who you or others were of the view had a special 5 entitlement to the land at the Base? 6 A: Like I said, it -- it only pertained 7 to whoever signed because I didn't know exactly who -- 8 who wanted to sign or -- we just went along with it, but 9 there was another one that Maynard T. wrote up. I didn't 10 write none of these documents up, Maynard T. wrote all 11 these documents. 12 Q: Okay. And you'll see that that 13 letter was sent to Mr. Irwin. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And as I understand, in response to 18 this letter that's on the screen, the letter written by 19 Mr. Ross to Mr. Irwin, I understand from looking through 20 the documents that there was a response to that letter 21 and for the assistance of Counsel, it's 9000115, that 22 there was a response from Audrey Doerr. 23 Do you recall that? 24 A: No, I can't recall it, no. 25 Q: Okay. Well, let me pass up to you,
891 Mr. Tolsma, a document that is a letter to you from Mr. 2 Ross enclosing a letter from Audrey Doerr and I'm just 3 going to ask if this be passed up to you, if this helps 4 refresh your memory a bit. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you'll see that there's two (2) 9 documents that have been passed up to you, one (1) is the 10 letter to you from Mr. Ross dated May 25, 1994 and the 11 second is and enclosed in that letter is a document dated 12 May 12th, 1994 from Audrey Doerr. 13 Did you have a chance to look at those 14 documents? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: If you look at the letter from Mr. 21 Ross which is the second document that you have there, 22 and that's Document 9000117, you'll see that Mr. Ross 23 says that he's enclosing Audrey Doerr's letter of May 24 12th and according to that, the bottom line is, is that 25 Indian Affairs and DND will only deal with the elected
901 chief and council of Kettle and Stony Point, and goes on: 2 "What this means is that Canada and its 3 departments does not recognize Stoney 4 Point as an independent band and will 5 not be including Stoney Point in any 6 discussions whatsoever. 7 It's my view that the actions of 8 Maynard George back in August 1993 have 9 caused your people to lose any real 10 opportunity they had to become involved 11 in discussions with respect to IR 43." 12 And I take it the actions of Maynard 13 George in August 1993 were the changing of the terms of 14 the agreement between Kettle Point band and the Stoney 15 Point group; is that right? 16 A: The -- he did change that one (1) 17 letter, yes. 18 Q: Yeah, yeah. And it goes on, on the 19 second page of that letter it says: 20 "Again I ask that the chief and council 21 form working groups of ten (10) per 22 member who are really prepared to work 23 if Stony Point is ever going to be in a 24 position to break away from Kettle 25 Point."
911 And as a result of Mr. Ross' May 25, 1994 2 letter, did you and the council form working groups? 3 A: For the negotiating? 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes, you did? Okay. Mr. 7 Commissioner, I'd ask that those two (2) documents, that 8 is Mr. Ross' May 25, 1994 letter and the attached letter, 9 the May 12th, 1994 letter from Audrey Doerr, be made the 10 next exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-212. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 212. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-212: Document No. 9000115 May 15 12/'94 Letter from Audrey D. 16 Doerr, Regional Director 17 General to Anthony Ross re 18 Stoney Point IR No. 43 and 19 document No. 9000117 May 20 25/'94 Mr. Anthony Ross 21 letter to Chief Carl George 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: And I then wanted to take you to the 25 minutes of a meeting, a general Band meeting that was
921 held at Kettle and Stony Point Community Centre on May 2 the 5th, 1994. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And for the assistance of Counsel -- 5 and you'll that in that cerlox bound document in front of 6 you and it's at Tab number 18. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Referring to 8 the meeting of May 5th? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: The May 5th, 1994 10 general-- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 12 Tab 20 or maybe it's Tab 20 in your binder. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: It -- it may be, Mr. 14 Commissioner, but it is the May 5th meeting -- minutes 15 that I'm looking at. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Tab 20 20 I think in the binder I have. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 23 Q: Tab 20? I think I made a mistake, 24 Mr. Tolsma, it's Tab 20. Do you have that document in 25 front of you or can you find it?
931 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: At least in my book the minutes are 4 arranged in chronological order. So if you're having 5 trouble finding it at the tab you're at -- 6 A: Well I got here like it's a regular 7 Council meeting. 8 Q: A General Band Meeting, Thursday, May 9 5, 1994? Is that what you're looking at? 10 A: No. It's Thursday, July 21st. 11 Q: Okay. I think if you go back two (2) 12 or three (3) tabs you'll find the May 5th. 13 A: This ones May 5th. 14 Q: Okay. And is that at your Tab 18? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have a 18 different -- different numbering. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 20 apologize for the confusion. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 We're all on the same page now. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, great. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
941 Q: Now, I understand from reading the 2 minutes of this meeting, Mr. Tolsma, that you were 3 present at this meeting and if you want to have a couple 4 of minutes to look at the document or if you need to 5 review it to refresh your memory on -- 6 A: Well, there's too many pages. Just 7 ask your question. 8 Q: Yeah. And just if it gives you some 9 assistance, if you turn to page 9 of the document at the 10 bottom of the page, that's the first reference I found in 11 the minutes to you being present at the meeting. 12 So, if -- if you want if you look at page 13 9 and page 10 and page 11 and 12, I think that sets out 14 the bulk of your interaction with Chief Bressette and 15 others at the meeting. 16 And that may -- that -- that excerpt my 17 help in refreshing your memory without requiring you to 18 look at the whole document. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Are you set, Mr. Tolsma? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Now, I understand from looking 25 at the earlier part of the document, and first of all, do
951 you recall being at that meeting? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And it appears from the first 4 part of the minute that one (1) of the issues, and you'll 5 see this on page 2 of the document, that Chief Bressette 6 was raising with the Council and the other band members 7 who were present - and you'll see this part way down on 8 the second page - is that the Department of National 9 Defence wanted to go in and do an environmental 10 assessment and clean up the land and according to Chief 11 Bressette, that so long as people were occupying the 12 land, he was of the view or had the concern that the 13 Department of National Defence wouldn't be able to go in 14 and either do the assessment or do the clean up. He 15 says: 16 "As long as they're there..." 17 They, being the people who were in 18 occupation: 19 "...They hinder the process of 20 environment assessment going ahead and, 21 as such, may let the Government of 22 Canada off the hook by saying the Band 23 refused to let them in and clean the 24 land." 25 Were you aware in May of 1994 that there
961 was an issue about the Department of National Defence 2 coming in to do an assessment and cleanup? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were you aware of the view that 5 the fact that you and others were in occupation of that 6 land, that it could hinder the process? 7 A: Yes, I understood what they were 8 saying, but still today they're still doing the same 9 thing and still nothing has happened. 10 Q: That's right. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And then I wanted to go to the 13 portions that deal with you and your interactions with 14 Chief Bressette and as I said earlier they start on page 15 9 -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- of the minutes. And there's some 18 discussion -- just to sort of set the stage -- there's 19 some discussion on page 9 about people from Kettle Point 20 being barred from fishing in the Stoney Point area unless 21 they had a Stoney Point card and there's some discussion 22 back and forth about whether or not you actually have to 23 have the Stoney Point card to fish there and whether 24 people have been stopped from fishing. 25 And you turn over the page and there's the
971 start from Gerald George where he talks about other 2 people are scared of these guys and that's in reference 3 to the people who are stopping the Kettle Point people 4 from fishing. And you say: 5 "What's to be scared of? The reason 6 why nobody's getting together, Tom, is 7 because I've told you before that I 8 wanted to talk to you and three (3) 9 Councilors said, no. You remember that 10 time I told you." 11 And there's some going on about the -- the 12 situation where you wanted to resolve the matter through 13 negotiation and what the actual issue was and according 14 to Chief Bressette: 15 "The main point though, was it was 16 recognition as a separate First Nation, 17 that's always been the issue, Carl." 18 And do you agree with, as of May 1994, 19 that the issue of whether or not Stoney Point was 20 separate from Kettle and Stony Point was a major sticking 21 issue with the band, the Kettle and Stony Point band? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And were you of the view at 24 the time, and I'm -- just to be fair, I want -- on page 25 11 at the top, there's -- chief Bressette says:
981 "Well, you should tell them now, Carl, 2 what you want, because you want 3 recognition as a separate First Nation. 4 Carl: It's what we want, because 5 people haven't been treated fairly 6 here. It's too late to turn back now. 7 Like Sarnia and Walpole, they 8 separated. I'm telling you now there's 9 going to be a separation here, there's 10 no stopping it, not now." 11 And were you of the view as of May of 1994 12 that there actually did now have to be a separation 13 between the Kettle and Stony Point band and the Stoney 14 Point group? 15 A: They wanted a separation, yes. 16 Q: No, were you of the view? 17 A: The view? 18 Q: That that needed to occur? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. And so when you say that, 21 "people haven't been treated fairly, it's too late to 22 turn back now, there's going to be a separation", that 23 doesn't reflect your view, that reflects others' views; 24 is that right? 25 A: Yes.
991 Q: Okay. And had you communicated to 2 Chief Bressette or to others at the Kettle and Stony 3 Point band that even though the Stoney Point group wanted 4 separation, that wasn't something that you wanted? 5 A: I met in general band meeting at one 6 time but I can't remember exactly what I said. And I did 7 meet with Tom -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- after that. 10 Q: Okay. And did you tell him that you 11 didn't share the views of the rest of the Stoney Point 12 group, that you -- 13 A: I told him -- 14 Q: -- wanted -- 15 A: -- I understood -- 16 Q: Right. 17 A: -- that the Kettle Point and Stony 18 Point was one band. I knew that. 19 Q: Okay. But did you tell him that you 20 really didn't agree with what the Stoney Point group 21 position was, that they were separate and distinct and 22 there had to be a separation? 23 A: I didn't agree with it, because I 24 knew they weren't. 25 Q: I know.
1001 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did you tell that to -- 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: -- Tom Bressette? Okay. And were 5 others, to your knowledge, did others at the Stoney Point 6 group know of your view that you didn't share a belief 7 that separation was both required and inevitable? 8 A: Most of them understood that, yes. 9 Q: They understood -- 10 A: But there's some that wouldn't take - 11 - knew it, but they wouldn't accept it. 12 Q: Okay. And did members of the Stony 13 Point group express any concerns to you that because your 14 position was different than the Stoney Point group in 15 terms of separation, that you might not actually be 16 acting on their behalf when you were talking to people 17 like Tom Bressette? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. So, you had those kind of 20 discursions? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was your response to that 23 concern? 24 A: I just told them exactly what I 25 thought and I knew that Kettle and Stony Point was one --
1011 one band and always was, through the whole occupation. 2 It was a learning process for myself, also, and there is 3 a lot of stuff that I did learn. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Yes, we had those discussions and at 6 that time, they -- there's some people that didn't think 7 I was acting on their behalf. 8 Q: Sure, and I also understand that at 9 or around that time, that in 1994, you and Tom Bressette 10 were having negotiations or with the Department of 11 National Defence. 12 A: Negotiations with National Defence? 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I -- you'd have to show me the 15 document. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Okay. Sorry, I -- I misspoke myself. 21 Were you and -- in or about that time, were you and Tom 22 Bressette meeting to try and work out how Kettle and 23 Stony Point and the Stoney Point group were going to 24 negotiate? 25 A: How they were going to negotiate?
1021 Q: Yeah, yeah, with DND. 2 A: Well they probably -- we probably 3 were talking about getting people on the negotiating 4 committee. 5 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me take you to a 6 document and see if that assists you. 7 In the -- the Commission's provided us -- 8 us with a document and for the assistance of Counsel, 9 it's Inquiry Number 700012 and it is a document that was 10 sent from the Base by the Military to a number of persons 11 and just so you understand what we've been given to-date 12 is memorandums from people who were at the Base sending 13 them out to different departments in the Military. 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And so this document, what it says, 16 and it's dated February 1994, and it covers a number of 17 activities or information from the position of people at 18 the Base at the time, but on page -- the third last page 19 of that document, under 25 Sub C, it says: 20 "Carl George, Stoney Point group 21 leader, and Tom Bressette, Kettle and 22 Stony Point Band Chief, were reported 23 to have met in the last two (2) weeks 24 in order to set out a path for an 25 agreement on the composition of the
1031 negotiating TM dealing with -- or the 2 team dealing with Department of 3 National Defence. 4 A potential agreement was averted by 5 Maynard George who attempted to insert 6 further conditions." 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Okay. Do you remember having 9 discussions in or around January or February with Tom 10 Bressette about the negotiating group? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was there an issue that arose 13 because of Maynard George? 14 A: He rewrote the -- the -- a few lines 15 in there. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And that -- and most of us didn't 18 know about it until it came -- I think Tom Bressette sent 19 it back and that's when we learned about Maynard changed 20 a few lines in there. 21 Q: Okay. Now, we've talked about that 22 happening in -- in or around August of 1993 with the 23 Memorandum of Agreement between Kettle Point and Stoney 24 Point that was agreed to in Gord Peters' office. This 25 sounds like it's something different in February of 1994
1041 that Maynard George was -- Maynard T. George was also 2 involved in. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Is that right? Was this a second 5 time -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that you were close to an 8 agreement and it fell apart? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And we've also heard some 11 evidence that in 1994 that there were some problems or 12 some issues that were arising on the Base that were being 13 attributed to the occupiers. 14 And specifically we've heard some evidence 15 about stolen cars being brought into the Base and in some 16 cases burnt and I think we heard from Glenn George that 17 he estimated there were about twenty-four (24) cars 18 involved in this. 19 And I'm wondering whether or not you have 20 any recollection of the issues that arose around the 21 stolen cars coming into the Base. 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: There was one (1) that I can -- it 25 was quite a while now, I know it was brought in there and
1051 it was parked on the side of the road back in the -- the 2 bush area and it was set on fire -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm? 4 A: -- and somebody just wanted to 5 collect insurance. More or less, I figured it was just 6 to make like the people there trying to discredit us and 7 put the blame on us. 8 Q: Okay. And did you have any 9 discussions with the military at the base or with the OPP 10 about your concern that the stolen cars coming into the 11 base were in fact being brought in by someone else? 12 A: I probably did. 13 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether or 14 not you had any discussions with the OPP about steps that 15 it and/or the municipality could take in order to try and 16 prevent stolen cars coming onto the base? 17 A: There probably was but I can't 18 rightly remember. 19 Q: Okay. And maybe I can refresh your 20 memory a little bit. We've heard some evidence earlier 21 that in the fall of 1994, that the municipality, one of 22 the steps that was going to be taken was the municipality 23 was going to do some work along Outer Drive. 24 A: Oh, yes. That -- to -- 25 Q: Do you remember that?
1061 A: -- yes, to dig up the roads going to 2 the highway. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you recall having discussions 6 with the municipality and with the OPP about the fact 7 that this was going to be done? 8 A: Well, they told me it was going to be 9 done and it was done. 10 Q: Okay. And did they seek your consent 11 or consult with you about this before hand? 12 A: They wanted to know one (1) thing 13 like which roads to dig up and I believe at that point I 14 said we -- we need at least one (1) to get in and out. 15 Q: And do you know whether or not any of 16 the other members of the Stoney Point group were 17 concerned about your discussions with the municipality or 18 the OPP or had concerns that you were agreeing to 19 something that they didn't want? 20 A: Not that I knew of, no. 21 Q: No. Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, you've told us earlier that in
1071 1993, in or about May of 1993, that from your perspective 2 the people that were on the base of the Stoney Point 3 group were all properly part of that group and there 4 weren't, for example, outsiders -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- that were included. Now as -- as 7 of May 1994, were you of the view or were you of concern 8 that there were outsiders at the base? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No? Okay. Let me -- let me just go 11 back then and see. We have a document which is, for the 12 assistance of counsel, 2001826 and it's a London Free 13 Press article that's dated May 24, 1994. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I'm sorry, this is a document that 18 came in two (2) parts and the front page of the article 19 is 2001825 and the second page is 2001826. So if we 20 could start off with the first page that would be really 21 helpful. 22 And again, it's a little difficult, Mr. 23 Tolsma, to see the entire thing but it talks, just to 24 give you some background, it talks about a number of 25 issues that had happened on the beach -- local beaches
1081 during the Victoria Day weekend of 1994. 2 And you'll see under the middle column 3 that says, Kicked and Punched, it says: 4 "Early Saturday, two (2) male campers 5 from nearby Ipperwash Provincial Park 6 were ordered off the beach at Canadian 7 Forces Base Ipperwash then kicked and 8 punched by a gang of about ten (10) 9 natives, Forest OPP said." 10 And they go on to say that that's being 11 investigated and then they talk about a second incident 12 involving assault of a female by Clayton Morris George 13 and they talk about the charges that are to be laid in 14 that. 15 And they say: 16 "Meanwhile another case of an assault 17 against three (3) females is being 18 investigated, police say." 19 And the next paragraph is the one I really 20 wanted to review with you. It says: 21 "Stoney Point chief Carl George and 22 Kettle Point chief Tom Bressette both 23 said that the campaign of harassment is 24 being waged by a group of militant 25 young hotheads, not all of them from
1091 the immediate area and not all of them 2 natives, said George, who then added, 3 'The cottagers have got it all wrong. 4 I don't let any warriors in there'". 5 And you go on. 6 And was it your view as in May of 1994 7 that there was harassment going on that was being waged 8 by a group of militant young hotheads? 9 A: Well, at that time, they were down in 10 the camping area what the military used to use in the 11 summer time, and that's right on the other side of the 12 dunes and the beach is on the other side. 13 And we didn't want them to be that close, 14 but they moved there anyway. 15 Q: You -- you didn't want that camp to 16 be set up there -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- but it was set up there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And I take it there were 21 problems arising from that camp? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I think that you told us 24 in your evidence previously that you then wanted to take 25 some steps to disband the camp so that those, as you say,
1101 young militant hotheads wouldn't be there. 2 A: Well they -- they -- at that time, 3 they were just starting to do whatever they want, because 4 there was drinking going on and at that -- like I said, 5 at that time, they really didn't listen to what I had to 6 say too much. 7 Q: Okay. So, that was a group of -- 8 from the Stoney Point group or was it the Stoney Point 9 group and others who were on the beach? 10 A: Stoney Point group. 11 Q: Okay. And they were a group that 12 weren't listening to your direction; is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you had little control over 15 them -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- at that time? Okay. Mr. 18 Commissioner, could we have that report made the next 19 exhibit? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-213. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-213 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah, and just to be 23 clear, it's a -- as I said, it's an article on two (2) 24 pages and so if we could make both of the pages one (1) 25 exhibit, that would be helpful.
1111 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-213: Document No.s 2001825 and 2 2001826 London Free Press 3 article "Campers, Cottagers 4 Harassed" May 24/'94 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: And I take it during this course of 8 time that is in or about over the --between 1994 and 1995 9 that negotiations were continuing -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- regarding the return of the land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And was the Stoney Point group 14 still involved in those negotiations? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And were you satisfied with 17 how the negotiations were going? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Were you of the view that the Stoney 20 Point groups' interests were properly being taken into 21 account? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Was there a period of time 24 that your view changed in 1994 or 1995 that, in fact, 25 your -- your -- the Stoney Point groups' interests
1121 weren't properly being taken into account? 2 A: I don't think so, no. 3 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you about 4 that, because there's a document and -- that we have from 5 the... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: ...Commission and it is number 10 1002089 and it's a Sarnia Observer article dated, 11 Families Continue Fight for Lost Land, and it's dated May 12 6th, 1995. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Mr. 17 Commissioner, what I'll do until we can get the document 18 in the database is I'll describe it as best I can and if 19 there's any issues that arise, I can clean that up or 20 someone can clean that up. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: Mr. Tolsma, this is an article from 24 the Sarnia Observer and it's dated May 6th, 1995. It's 25 entitled, Families Continue Fight for Lost Land, and what
1131 it does is, it really says that the Stoney Point group 2 was getting ready to celebrate their second year at the 3 Base. 4 And it then goes on to talk a little bit 5 about some of the events that happened since the group 6 took over the Base. And what it talks about in April, 7 and that is April of 1995, the Chippewas of Kettle and 8 Stoney Point Band launched a lawsuit against the Federal 9 Government seeking return of the Camp and $725 million in 10 damages. 11 Were you aware of that lawsuit? 12 A: I probably heard of it, but because 13 around about that time I don't think I was no longer 14 involved. 15 Q: Okay. Well, it goes on to say, now: 16 "About forty-five (45) of the lands' 17 original residents and descendants have 18 launched a lawsuit in Federal Court 19 against both the Federal Government and 20 the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 21 They're seeking return of the land, 25 22 million in damages from the Federal 23 Government and 10 million in damages 24 from the Kettle and Stoney Point Band. 25 The families don't have any confidence
1141 that the officially recognized Band 2 Council will honour their concerns. 3 According to John McNair (phonetic), a 4 London lawyer representing the group, 5 they view themselves as having a 6 separate and distinct identity, he 7 said, and because of that, the group is 8 also seeking an injunction restraining 9 the Federal Government and Kettle and 10 Stony Point from entering into any 11 agreements over compensation or return 12 of the land without their consent." 13 And it goes on to talk about you, Mr. 14 George, I believe. Oh, no. Sorry, that's incorrect. 15 Did you know whether or not in the spring 16 of 1995, the Stoney Point group started an action against 17 the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Federal 18 Government? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did you know whether or not the 21 Stoney Point group was also seeking an injunction against 22 the Kettle and Stony Point Band as of May 1995? 23 A: I may have heard about it but I can't 24 rightly remember because like I said I don't -- I don't - 25 - around about that time I was no longer involved.
1151 Q: Okay. And I -- you told us I think, 2 Mr. George, that once you -- sorry, Mr. Tolsma, that once 3 you had left as chief, that you sort of washed your hands 4 of the matter and didn't have any further involvement? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you some 7 questions about that because there seems to be other 8 information in the documents that we have. 9 A: Okay. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: And, Mr. Commissioner, 11 it is about ten to 12:00. Would you like me to start 12 into this area or should we have a break? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 14 should continue for a while. I think we should continue. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 17 any idea how much longer you might be. Are you able to 18 make an estimate: 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I'll be about - 20 - I think I'll be another hour at most. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 22 we should continue for a little while and see how far we 23 go. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25
1161 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 2 Q: In the binder in front of you at Tab 3 47, you should see an e-mail I believe from Les Kobayashi 4 dated June 2, 1995 and it's Inquiry Document Number 5 1009259. 6 And -- sorry, have you -- have you had -- 7 been able to find that? 8 A: I got it here. 9 Q: Okay. And you'll see that this is a 10 memorandum from Les Kobayashi for distribution to MNR. 11 But what he talks about is a discussion that he had with 12 Staff Sergeant Bouwman on June 30th, 1995. 13 And can you tell me, Mr. Tolsma, after 14 you, as you say, sir, severed your ties with the group on 15 the base, did you continue to have discussions with the 16 police, the OPP about what in your view was going on or 17 what your concerns were on the base? 18 A: They probably contacted me and asked 19 me questions. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: That's about all I can remember. 22 Q: Because if you go to the bottom of 23 the page, you'll see an entry dated June 30th and this is 24 according to Staff Sergeant Bouwman says: 25 "He met with the passive occupiers and
1171 former acclaimed Chief Carl George who 2 informed Sergeant Bouwman that his 3 group was going to confront the radical 4 group on the base on Monday, the 3rd of 5 July with the intent to force the 6 radicals off of the base." 7 And first of all, do you recall meeting 8 with Staff Sergeant Bouwman on June the 30th? 9 A: I met with him a number of times but 10 on June the 2nd -- it's hard to remember that far back. 11 Q: Okay. Do you remember having a 12 concern at or about the time that you left the base or 13 shortly after about -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- outsiders being on the base? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you recall having a concern 18 that that could be or would be a problem? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were you of the view that they 21 ought to leave? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you and others and the way 24 it's described here, is the passive occupiers, but did 25 you have discussions with any of the Stoney Point group
1181 that were still on the base about whether or not those 2 outsiders ought to leave? 3 A: I can't really remember, but I know I 4 went to Six Nations to the Chiefs Confederacy to ask them 5 to pull their people out. 6 Q: Okay. Was that something that you 7 did in the summer of 1995? 8 A: It probably was. 9 Q: Okay. Was that something you did 10 after you quit being chief and after you left the base? 11 A: I think so. 12 Q: Okay. And is that the meeting that 13 you had that you described with -- that Cecil Bernard 14 George accompanied you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you and he both went and asked 17 that the outsiders leave? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And I take it from your 20 evidence that what happened after that meeting, is some 21 outsiders left but not all of them? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the ones that were remaining were 24 the ones who weren't being controlled or weren't 25 controlled by their chiefs and their council?
1191 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And in -- do you -- can you 3 help us understand how many of those outsiders were left? 4 A: No, I don't, because I wasn't there 5 any more. 6 Q: Sure. But you knew they were there? 7 A: I know some of them were there. 8 Q: Yeah. And you had concerns about 9 them? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And did you take any other 12 steps at that time, that is after you quit being chief 13 and sort of left from the base, any other steps to try 14 and ensure that those outsiders wouldn't stay on at the 15 base? 16 A: I don't think so. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And if we turn to another document, 21 and for the assistance of the Commission, it is a Sarnia 22 Observer article, Ipperwash dispute heats up. It's dated 23 July 4th, 1995 and it's Inquiry Document 1002089. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 25 number you cited for the last article.
1201 MS. KAREN JONES: It may well -- I -- my 2 understanding, Mr. Commissioner, is -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They're the 4 same. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that there were a 6 number of -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Articles -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- newspaper -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- with the 10 same number. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- articles that have 12 been packed together -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fifty (50) pages. 14 Perhaps Counsel could help us. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, this one is 16 called, Ipperwash dispute heats up. According to the 17 Document Number at the bottom, it's 0023038 and it's part 18 of the package that is 00 -- 1002089. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. KAREN JONES: It's also, Mr. 23 Commissioner, it's also an Exhibit P-28. Maybe that's an 24 easier way to find it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which one is
1211 that? The one you -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: This is the document, 3 Ipperwash Dispute Heats Up. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, what 5 about the other one, Families continue to fight for lost 6 land"? Do you want to make -- still haven't found that? 7 All right. When we do you want to make it 8 an exhibit? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This is actually, 10 Ipperwash dispute heats up. It's Document Number 1003191 11 and Document Number -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 13 one that's Exhibit 28? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 16 one you're dealing with now? 17 MS. KAREN JONES: That's the one I'm 18 dealing with now. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: And, Mr. Tolsma, this is a Sarnia 22 Observer article dated July 4th, 1995; it's entitled, 23 Ipperwash Dispute Heats Up. It talks about a number of 24 events on the first and the second column that had taken 25 place at the Base and then it goes on in the middle of
1221 the second column to refer to you. And it says: 2 "Carl George, Chief of the Stoney Point 3 Band that claims its members are the 4 lands' rightful owners, says a small 5 breakaway group of people at the Camp 6 are causing problems. They're acting 7 on their own, he said, I don't agree 8 with it. 9 In fact, Chief George has advised 10 members of his group to leave the Camp 11 for their own safety. They've occupied 12 the land since May 6th, 1993. Clifford 13 George, an elder who has lived at the 14 Camp since the occupation began, has 15 been threatened, said Chief George." 16 And I wanted to ask you about that portion 17 of it. And first of all, were you still in July of 1995, 18 speaking to the media about what was going on at the Base 19 or was the media seeking you out to find out your views 20 on the matter? 21 A: I don't know, they -- if I was still 22 speaking to them or not. 23 Q: Okay. And were you of the view that 24 a small breakaway group of people at the Camp were 25 causing problems?
1231 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yeah. And that they were acting on 3 their own and you didn't agree with it? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And who was that group or what was 6 that group, that breakaway group you were concerned 7 about? 8 A: Well, there was -- I had a few 9 problems with Mannings and they wouldn't listen. 10 It was probably the Mannings. I can't 11 really remember. 12 Q: You can't recall who was -- can you 13 recall who you were having problems with on the beach in 14 1994, the young hothead radicals. 15 A: Mannings. 16 Q: Those were all Mannings? 17 A: It was a few of the young Manning's 18 boys. 19 Q: Okay. We had heard some evidence 20 earlier from Marlin Simon that camped out on the beach 21 were a number of his relatives and some of the younger 22 Georges. Does that assist you at all? 23 A: It could have been because I couldn't 24 keep track of everybody. 25 Q: Sure, you can't recall?
1241 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you go on at the bottom of 3 that column, or it appears you go on to say that: 4 "Clifford George, an elder who has 5 lived at the Camp since the occupation 6 began has been threatened, Chief George 7 said." 8 Now, did -- were you of the belief or did 9 you have information or knowledge at the time that 10 Clifford George had been threatened? 11 A: I can't remember, no. 12 Q: You can't recall that? 13 A: I can't recall. You'd have -- I'd 14 have to -- you'd have to ask Clifford, I -- I just can't 15 recall that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And after or about -- I mean, this 21 article dated July 4th, 1995 identifies you as Chief of 22 the Kettle -- sorry, of the Stoney Point Band. 23 Did you take any steps or do you know 24 whether anybody else took any other steps to correct the 25 record that you were no longer Chief or that you were no
1251 longer acting for the Stoney Point group? 2 A: I think there was. 3 Q: Okay. Okay. We've heard some 4 evidence, for example, that members of the Stoney Point 5 group issued a press release saying that you no longer 6 acted -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- you were no longer their chief. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yeah, okay. Now, one (1) of the 11 documents that we've looked at, Mr. Tolsma, is the 12 minutes from a general band meeting and they're dated 13 August 1, 1995 and they have been made an exhibit. 14 And for the assistance of counsel, they 15 are Document 6000354. And in that cerlox bound book in 16 front of you, they should be contained in there at my 17 Tab, they're -- in my book they're Tab 28. You'll see it 18 says August 1, 1995. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 20 not sure I can help you in terms of your book. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 22 mentioned that it was already an exhibit. Do you know 23 what exhibit number it is? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Let me just check and 25 see. I don't have the document, the exhibit number on
1261 here, Mr. Commissioner. But I believe that the minutes 2 were made early on in the fall. So, they're probably 3 early in the document numbers. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 6 Q: Do you have before you, the general 7 Band meeting minutes of August 1, 1995? 8 Sorry, it's P-143, Mr. Commissioner. 9 A: I got a General Council Meeting 10 August 1st, '95. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Not a general Band meeting. 13 Q: Okay. Well, what I can do is if you 14 turn around you'll see on the screen -- and this is the 15 general Band meeting, you're right, t's not the regular 16 council meeting. 17 We've reviewed this document at some 18 length with a number of witnesses, Mr. Tolsma and it 19 appears as though you were participating in that meeting. 20 And were participating with the General Band and the 21 Council and Chief in trying to devise a strategy to deal 22 with the issue at the base. 23 And specifically the issue of the 24 outsiders; do you recall that? Because I can -- I can 25 take you to the specific passages. But I wondered if you
1271 recall in August of 1995 continuing to be concerned about 2 what was going on at the base and wanting to change what 3 was happening there. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And was it your view that you 6 could only change it from the outside, that you could no 7 longer change it from the inside? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was it your view or did you know 10 whether or not once you left the Base were there any of 11 the Stoney Point group members continued to have 12 discussions with Tom Bressette or with the Council or 13 other -- or people that in the Kettle and Stony Point 14 Band to communicate what was going on and what was 15 happening? 16 A: No, I don't. I didn't know that -- 17 anything about it. 18 Q: You had no knowledge -- 19 A: No, I had no knowledge of it. 20 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to turn 21 briefly to the issue of communication because one of the 22 things that you've told us is throughout the period of 23 time that you were at the base from 1993 to 1995 that you 24 had a good working relationship with the OPP but for one 25 incident that you spoke of.
1281 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it that you'd agree that 3 part of the reason you had the good working relationship 4 was because you communicated with them. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you told them what was going on 7 and discussed concerns with them? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And similarly I take it that you 10 would have had discussions with whoever was in charge 11 over that period of time at the base about concerns that 12 you would have had or resolution to those concerns? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And you would have kept the 15 base informed but the military people at the base 16 informed about what you were doing and how you were doing 17 it and why you were doing it? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And I take it you also would 20 have had discussions with other people in the community, 21 perhaps the municipality letting them know what you were 22 doing and what your plans were and what your intentions 23 were? 24 A: With? 25 Q: Did you have meetings from time to
1291 time with the municipality. 2 A: Maynard T. did. 3 Q: Maynard T. did that, okay. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it that one of the 6 reasons that you kept those lines of communication open 7 with the OPP and the DND was because you wanted to get 8 along -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- with those groups and you thought 11 it was important in order to keep a peaceful and 12 organized group that you keep those lines of 13 communication open? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So, that if you had concerns they 16 could be dealt with or if they had concerns they could 17 deal with them with you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that right? Okay. And I also 20 take it that you'd agree that one (1) of the reasons that 21 during the period 1993 to 1995 was relatively calm vis-a- 22 vis the people at the -- at the Base was because you and 23 others maintained some control over the situation? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that you had a structure, a Chief
1301 and a Council that was -- that helped maintain that 2 control? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And so that you could deal with 5 matters as that -- as they arose? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so that if you could plan 8 together with the group and speak with one (1) voice 9 about what you wanted and how you wanted to do it? 10 A: Yes, that was what we intended. 11 Q: And I take it that you'd agree it's 12 important when you're dealing with groups like the OPP or 13 the DND that it be possible for them to identify the 14 right person to speak to and be able to have those 15 discussions? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that that person would be 18 accountable? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And if not, it ends up being more 21 chaotic? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And very difficult to deal with? 24 A: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this
1311 would be a good point -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Ms. 4 Jones, to break for lunch. 5 This would be a good point. It's now 6 12:15, we'll adjourn for lunch. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 8 adjourned until 1:30. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 12:15 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 1:32 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 16 might, I just wanted to alert everyone with respect to 17 our schedule for this week, a schedule change. We had 18 advised everyone and contemplated that the next witness 19 after Mr. Tolsma would be Mr. Ron George and then Wally 20 Kaczanowski and Miles Bressette. 21 Where -- Ron George is going to moved 22 until next Monday and so tomorrow we'll do -- start with 23 Mr. Wally Kaczanowski and then move to Mr. Myles 24 Bressette and then on Monday, we'll start with Mr. Ron 25 George and then move to Chief Tom Bressette.
1321 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Millar. 3 Ms. Jones...? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 8 Q: Mr. Tolsma, when we left we were 9 looking at Exhibit P-43 which is the general Band meeting 10 minutes of August 1, 1995. Do you have that before you? 11 A: No. I don't. 12 Q: You don't have that, okay. I think 13 it was up on the screen. Perhaps we could get that 14 again. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, I take it from you've said, Mr. 19 Tolsma, that even after you left the base and were no 20 longer chief of that group there, that you still had 21 concerns about what was going on at the base? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that you were still trying to the
1331 best of your ability to stop or avert any problems or 2 violence that could arise? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I think you've told us for 5 example, that one thing that happened that you disagreed 6 with after you left, was the taking over of the built-up 7 area in the base? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that I take it had you been there 10 you would've been against that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And similarly the Park, you 13 would have been against that, taking over the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now, there were a couple of 16 areas of the general Band meeting minutes I wanted to 17 take you to. And the first area was on page 1 and we 18 have a portion of it up on the screen now. 19 And the portion that I wanted to take you 20 to is about the middle of the first paragraph where 21 according to Chief Tom Bressette, I've had meetings with 22 Carl, he has been in touch with people who have strong 23 feelings about Stoney Point. We want to explore 24 possibilities. 25 After you left the base, did you have
1341 meetings with Chief Tom Bressette? 2 A: Privately, yes. 3 Q: Private meetings? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what things did you talk to Chief 6 Tom Bressette about? 7 A: Well the concerns of -- what was his 8 name? There was one (1) person that we were mainly 9 talking about quite a bit. 10 Q: One (1) person being an outsider that 11 you were particularly concerned about? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You've mentioned a few times in your 14 evidence, Les Jewel? 15 A: Les Jewel, yes. 16 Q: That's the person that you're talking 17 about? 18 A: Yes. He was the main -- main problem 19 everybody was talking about. 20 Q: Okay. And why was Les Jewel the main 21 problem that everyone was talking about? 22 A: Well from other reserves like up in 23 Sucker Creek, we heard that he tried to cause a few 24 problems there. And the women on that reserve, they 25 walked him to the edge of the reserve and told him not to
1351 come back. 2 Q: Did you have any information, 3 knowledge or belief as to what the problems were? 4 A: I can't rightly remember right now. 5 But, all I can remember is that he -- he was a problem 6 and he was on -- on Stoney Point and I was concerned that 7 problems may occur from there. 8 Q: What -- what problems were you 9 anticipating -- 10 A: Anything. 11 Q: -- or what were you worried about? 12 A: Anything. 13 Q: Okay. Were you worried that he was a 14 person that could cause or contribute to violence in the 15 -- in -- on the Base? 16 A: All I was told that he was a 17 troublemaker, that was it. 18 Q: And in the general band meeting 19 minutes where it talks about: 20 "I've had meetings with Carl. He's 21 been in touch with people who have 22 strong feelings about Stoney Point." 23 Were you, in fact, in touch with people 24 who had strong feelings or strong views about Stoney 25 Point?
1361 A: Well, I'm not really -- know who we 2 were relating to, but a lot of them that I talked with 3 was a lot of the elders that had concerns, yes. 4 Q: Okay. Were you talking to the Kettle 5 and Stony Point Band elders or were you talking to elders 6 that were -- 7 A: Well, they're all Kettle and Stony 8 Point elders, yes. 9 Q: Okay. Were you talking to any elders 10 who were on the Base or in the built-up area of the Base? 11 A: No, I didn't go back on there. 12 Q: Okay. And you didn't have any 13 further conversations with them? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And did you have -- after you left 20 the Base and were no longer Chief -- did you have ongoing 21 discussions with anyone from the Base -- from the Stoney 22 Point group? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. We have a document in the 25 database and it's Document 7000243 and it's one (1) of
1371 the documents that have come from the Department of 2 National Defence. And there's a memorandum that's dated 3 August 1995 and it says it's covering the period of 4 August 21 to August 31, 1995 and it says: 5 "The following points should be noticed 6 -- noted with respect to the native 7 elements and (A) Carl George no longer 8 appears to have any influence within 9 the SPG, the Stoney Point Group. He's 10 been working with Tom Bressette and 11 assisted him in drafting the KSP Band 12 Council resolution." 13 Is that correct during that time, that you 14 no longer had influence with the Stoney Point group and 15 that you were working with Tom Bressette? 16 A: I didn't have any influence with the 17 ones down there, no. 18 Q: Okay. And you were -- 19 A: And working to draft something? No, 20 I didn't -- I don't know how to draft anything, so -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And the second point is: 24 "Buck Doxtator has been seen with Carl 25 George on the Kettle Point side."
1381 Now, first of all do you know who -- 2 A: I don't even know who Buck Doxtator 3 is. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: I said I don't know who Buck Doxtator 6 is. 7 Q: Okay. And the third point: 8 "Glenn George and Les Jewel have been 9 involved in meetings with Carl George 10 and Buck -- Buck Doxtator on the Kettle 11 Point side." 12 Did you have any discussions or meetings 13 with Glenn George or Les Jewel? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: Okay, or with Buck Doxtator? 16 A: No, I didn't. 17 Q: No. Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Okay. There's another document that 22 I wanted to take you to and that is from the Kettle and 23 Stony Point Council regular council meeting minutes of 24 Monday, July 3rd, 1995 and if your volume is like mine, 25 it's at Tab 26.
1391 And that's in that cerlox bound... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Do you see that document, Mr. Tolsma? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And you'll see on the first 8 page, it says, Camp Ipperwash Military Police concerns. 9 And we're going -- it talks a little bit in the start of 10 that paragraph about what some of the concerns are and 11 goes on in the middle of the paragraph to say: 12 "Chief and Council stated they do not 13 support or advocate what some of the 14 people are doing there at Stoney 15 Point." 16 And then the next bullet point is: 17 "Carl George who was..." 18 It says presented, I assume it's present-- 19 "...stated that he will talk to Cliff 20 George and the others about discussions 21 that took place at the meeting tonight 22 and ask for their support regarding his 23 suggestion." 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes.
1401 Q: And did you, in fact, say that you 2 would talk to Cliff George and others about the 3 discussions that were taking place? 4 A: I probably did. 5 Q: And did you have discussions with 6 Cliff George and others? 7 A: I can't remember but I probably did, 8 yes. 9 Q: Okay. And at that time, was Cliff 10 George at the base? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And can you help us with what 13 others you might have had discussions with at the base, 14 in addition to Cliff George? 15 A: No, I can't. 16 Q: Okay. And it goes on, the next 17 bullet point: 18 "Carl states he agrees with the 19 statement of principles but two (2) 20 additional items have to be added and 21 then it should be sent out so people 22 will know what is happening with the 23 negotiation process." 24 And looking at that, does that help you 25 recall whether or not you were involved in the drafting
1411 of the statement of principles, or had input into the 2 statement of principles? 3 A: All -- I think what it -- what it 4 means is there would be a letter put out so every one -- 5 one knows what is going on. 6 Q: Sure. But what the question I asked 7 you was, does reading this help refresh your memory about 8 whether you took part in the drafting of or contributed 9 to the statement of principles that the Kettle and Stony 10 Point Band Council was putting together? 11 A: It doesn't ring a bell, no. I can't 12 remember, no. 13 Q: Okay. Well, let's try one more 14 document. If you turn to the next tab, which in my book 15 is Tab 27 and this is the regular Council meeting minutes 16 of Tuesday, July 25, 1995. Have you got that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you turn to the third page which 19 is actually labelled page number 5 in my book. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Do you see under (G), Carl O. George 22 statement of principles? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "Carl requested an in camera 25 discussion. Russell Raikes and Paul
1421 Gogle (phonetic) were present. 2 Discussion on draft statement and there 3 was a recommended change that was to be 4 made." 5 And then there was -- it looks like some 6 discussion that the main issue was to stress this wasn't 7 an agreement but a working statement for negotiations. 8 Does that help you recall whether or not 9 you assisted in drafting or had input into the 10 principles? 11 A: Kind of rings a bell, but I can't 12 remember all the details, no. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now we're jumping around a little bit 18 Commissioner but I wanted to go back to P-43 which was 19 the minutes of the general band meeting from August 1st, 20 1995. We had that up on the screen a minute ago. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall, Mr. George 25 -- sorry, Mr. Tolsma -- attending this meeting, this
1431 general Band meeting on August the 1st, 1995? 2 A: I probably was there, yes. 3 Q: Okay. If we flip over to page 17 of 4 this Band meeting minutes... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: ...and if we can just get to the next 9 page? Sorry. Okay. You see halfway down the page it 10 says: 11 "Carl George: I would like to speak on 12 this paper here. Three (3) years ago 13 we started talking about this year a 14 lot of people don't like me right now, 15 but I pushed for this because I thought 16 everyone should be treated fairly." 17 And then you go on a little bit. And you 18 say in the middle of -- of that paragraph that you don't 19 know what else to do. 20 "I work with Tom and I'm hated for that 21 and called a traitor." 22 Do you remember making those comments? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were you referring to being 25 called a traitor by the Stoney Point group?
1441 A: Not all of them, no. 2 Q: Okay. Who -- who were you referring 3 to that -- where you're hated for that and called a 4 traitor? Who was -- 5 A: Maynard T.'s family. 6 Q: Maynard T.'s family? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And you go on to say: 9 "I'm sorry for the people at Stoney 10 Point, but I'm not wanted there any 11 more." 12 Was your view in general that you weren't 13 wanted at Stoney Point or that some people were against 14 it? 15 A: Well, I pretty well got the feeling 16 from everyone, but like I said, Maynard T.'s family is 17 the ones that -- which I was called a traitor or I was 18 selling out or -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I heard that quite -- quite often. 21 Q: Okay. Now, we heard from Glenn 22 George previously at this Inquiry and one (1) of the 23 things that he talked about was that since you went back 24 to Kettle Point after stopping being the Chief at Kettle 25 and Stony Point, that you had a house at Kettle Point and
1451 a job there. 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: Okay. And he intimated that that was 4 something that was questionable, that you were benefiting 5 from, in essence, being on the Kettle and Stony Band 6 side. Is that something that -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'll take the 9 first cut, Commissioner. 10 The -- the statement with which Mr. Tolsma 11 just agreed is somewhat equivocal. He always had a house 12 at -- at Kettle Point, it wasn't a benefit of or 13 purported benefit or attributable benefit that -- that 14 may have arisen or come his way after the -- the date 15 referred to and, of course, that's subject to his 16 confirmation. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that the 18 same observation you were going to make, Mr. Ross? 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No need -- I don't 20 need to follow Mr. Henderson, thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Ms. Jones, you want to just... 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 24 wasn't putting that proposition -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know.
1461 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to Mr. Tolsma 2 because what Mr. George said was true, I was putting it 3 to him to see if he had a comment to make on it and 4 whether or not that reflected some of the concerns he had 5 heard about why he was being called a traitor. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 7 that's right. Okay. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Sorry, Mr. Tolsma, to get back to 13 that, I had told you a little bit earlier about some of 14 the testimony of Glenn George, which as I said, referred 15 to the fact he said -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- that you had a house and a job at 18 Kettle Point and he intimated that there was something 19 wrong with that. 20 A: Well, I -- 21 Q: And the question that I had, was that 22 something that you heard from him or from others in terms 23 of you've obtained a special benefit because you are now 24 seen as being with Tom Bressette in the Kettle and Stony 25 Point group.
1471 A: Well from, you know, what other 2 people imagined at that time really didn't matter to me. 3 The first priority I had was my family. And yes, I did 4 have a house there and I did have a job there and there's 5 no other way of me feeding my family if I didn't have a 6 job. 7 And I wasn't down Stoney Point constantly 8 everyday because I had a house and I lived there at 9 Kettle Point so that's where I spend most of my time. 10 Q: Okay. And, Mr. George, sorry, Mr. 11 Tolsma, do you have a son, Carl George Jr.? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: Also known as Bimbo? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No? 16 A: That's -- that was my cousin. 17 Q: That was your cousin. 18 A: My son is Carl Ross George Jr. at 19 that time. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And of course there was three (3) 22 Carl Georges too at that time too. 23 Q: Well, it's -- it's difficult to 24 figure out. I was asking you because one of the 25 documents that we have in this Inquiry is a photograph of
1481 Carl George Jr. that was taken in the Park on September 2 the 7th and so I wanted to ask you if Carl George Jr. -- 3 that Carl George Jr. who apparently is also known as 4 Bimbo was your son. 5 A: As Bimbo? No, that's not my son. 6 Q: Okay. And -- did you have in August 7 or September of 1995, any of your direct family members, 8 that is your children that were on the base or in the 9 built-up area or in the Park? 10 A: They -- in the Park, as far as I 11 know, no but like I said my son was married to Maynard 12 T's daughter, Marsha and they did go down there now and 13 again, but I tried to keep him out of there. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And he pretty well stayed out of 16 there just went in frequently. 17 Q: Okay. And then when we go down a 18 little bit on the document behind you, Mr. Tolsma, 19 there's a attribution to Barb George. I take it Barb 20 George is your mother? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And if we go through her 23 comments there, she talks about, my son has died over 24 Stoney Point and that's what we believe in. And I take 25 it that she's referring to Guy George?
1491 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And I understand that Guy 3 George was killed in a fight in or around Owen Sound; is 4 that right? 5 A: Yes, that's right. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't see the 7 relevance of this line of questioning. This individual 8 has nothing whatsoever to do with the events at 9 Ipperwash. And I believe that Mr. George -- Mr. Tolsma, 10 clarified that in his examination-in-chief when I took 11 him to the passage above about losing a brother. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked 13 the question, he answered it, I think you can just move 14 on. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, the 16 only reason that I asked that question is because some of 17 the documents in the database indicate that an issue at 18 the time of the fight when Mr. George was killed, was a 19 fight about Ipperwash. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Mr. 21 George you're referring to is Guy George? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm referring to Guy 23 George. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1501 Q: And was that -- was that your 2 understanding, Mr. Tolsma? 3 A: At that time, no. That wasn't the 4 issue. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: It was not the issue. 7 Q: About land claim? Wasn't -- wasn't-- 8 A: He wasn't killed over the land 9 issues. 10 Q: Okay. When we go through the portion 11 of this attributed to Barb George and we see a little bit 12 on the second page there, that she talks about: 13 "I don't want these outsiders who are 14 causing all this disturbance. I used 15 to walk that beach last summer but I 16 don't feel safe now and I hear the gate 17 is locked so I can't go there." 18 And she goes on: 19 "How many more deaths are there going 20 to be with these warriors. I hear 21 they're called from the States. I 22 don't like them down there, I think 23 they should be removed." 24 And Mr. Ross asked you some questions 25 yesterday about the warriors and your understanding of
1511 the warriors. And I think that your response was 2 something like, They come and give support. 3 And from your knowledge or information or 4 your belief, have there been situations where warriors or 5 people calling themselves warriors, have participated in 6 events where there was violence or violence involving 7 guns? 8 A: At Stoney Point? 9 Q: No -- 10 A: Anywhere else? 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: Well, I heard of different places, 13 yes, where they give support and -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's a 15 pretty general question. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, let me -- let me 17 see if I can narrow it down a little bit. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Was one of your concerns -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross, do 23 you want to make a statement. I think it's too general 24 to ask about anything, anywhere. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I think it's just much
1521 too broad. I -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: As a matter of fact, I 4 could recall in my days practising, there was a situation 5 where an RCMP officer got his hand blown off trying to 6 place a bomb some place in Quebec. Now do we paint all 7 RCMP officers -- I don't know we can go that far. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 9 don't think she's going to go that far. I think she's 10 going to try to narrow it down now. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Was one of your concerns about having 16 outsiders at the base or outsiders who identified 17 themselves as warriors, that there was a potential or a 18 possibility based on your knowledge or experience or 19 beliefs about warriors that that could contribute to 20 violence on the base or at the Park? 21 A: No, I just didn't want no other group 22 interfering. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1531 Q: Now following August 1st, 1995, this 2 meeting at the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation, did 3 you continue to have involvement in any of the 4 negotiations relating to either Stoney Point or the 5 return of the land? 6 A: I did for a while, but I -- I can't 7 remember when I -- I took myself off of the negotiating 8 team. I just can't remember when -- when I did. 9 Q: Okay. In the database that we have, 10 we have a document that's entitled, Stony Point Camp 11 Ipperwash Meeting, and it's dated November 29, 1995. And 12 for the assistance of Counsel it is at Tab -- sorry, it 13 is one (1) of a number of Camp Ipperwash meetings that is 14 the Inquiry Document Number 1010010. 15 And I believe that the document also has a 16 number of 9000529. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Okay, the easiest number I think to 21 find it with, Mr. Commissioner, is 9000529. And it's a 22 document entitled, Stony Point Camp Ipperwash Meeting, 23 it's dated Wednesday, November the 29th, 1995 and 24 according to this document, the attendees were Norm 25 Shawnoo, Bob Bressette, Brenda Given (phonetic), Betty
1541 Thomas, Kelly Thomas, Marshall George and Carl George and 2 at the meeting was Linda Henry Resource and Victor 3 Gulewitsch Research. 4 Do you have any recollection of taking 5 part in meetings that were called, Stoney Point/Camp 6 Ipperwash meetings? 7 A: There probably was a meeting. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I -- I just can't get back to that 10 time, exactly. 11 Q: Okay. And let me -- let me just set 12 out for you, some of the items that are set out in the 13 first page to see if that refreshes your memory. 14 There was a discussion about the pending 15 appointment of a new Government negotiator. There was a 16 visit to Sarcee was considered. And there were some 17 suggestions that it might be easier for a native firm to 18 do the environmental assessment and cleanup and there's a 19 note that regardless of what firm does the assessment, 20 cooperation is still required from people who live at 21 Stoney Point and we must reach out to them. 22 And then there's some discussion going on 23 about a person from that group volunteering to go to 24 Stoney Point and ask if there could be a joint meeting 25 and it's a little bit fuzzy on the screen, hopefully we
1551 can sort it out a bit, but the minutes -- those minutes 2 are right behind you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Does that -- does that help refresh 7 your memory at all, Mr. Tolsma, about whether or not -- 8 A: It's very hard to read it from this-- 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: -- from where I am. 11 Q: Yeah. Is that a little easier for 12 you? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Well, just vaguely. 17 Q: Okay. First of all, can you -- can 18 you assist in whether the people who are set out at the 19 top -- that is, Norm Shawnoo, Bob Bressette, Brenda 20 Given, Betty Thomas, Kelly Thomas, Marshall George and 21 Carl George -- were you all with the Kettle and Stony 22 Point Band? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Is there anybody on that list 25 that was from the Stoney Point group?
1561 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. So I take it then, as of 3 November of 1995, in term -- that -- that there was first 4 of all, a negotiating committee in place that you were on 5 regarding the land? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that there was no one on that 8 negotiating committee from the Stoney Point group. 9 A: There still was, yes. 10 Q: Okay. Is -- is -- was there someone 11 that -- I had looked at the list of attendees. Was there 12 someone on, who was part of the Stoney Point/Camp 13 Ipperwash negotiating group at that time from the Stoney 14 Point group? 15 A: That attended this -- that meeting? 16 Q: No, who was on the negotiating 17 committee? 18 A: Well, with the names that's on top 19 there, no. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether or 21 not after November 1995, whether there were efforts made 22 to have someone from or a person or persons from the 23 Stoney Point group on the negotiating committee? 24 A: There still was. 25 Q: Pardon me?
1571 A: Those names, there's more than that, 2 that were on the negotiating committee. 3 Q: Okay. Maybe my question wasn't very 4 clear. I was -- I had earlier you if, as of November 5 1995, on the -- whether there was anyone specifically 6 from the Stoney Point group on the negotiating -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- committee? Okay, who was that, do 9 you know? 10 A: Janet Cloud, Noreen Kowishik 11 (phonetic). 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That's all I can remember. 14 Q: Okay. And I wanted to take you to 15 one more set of minutes from the Kettle and Stoney Point 16 First Nation meeting and it looks like this is also part 17 of the negotiating group minutes. 18 And this is Document Number 1010010 and 19 they're the Stoney Point negotiating minutes dated 20 February 29, 1996. 21 OBJ MS. SUSAN VELLA: I've let this line of 22 questioning go on for a little while, but it seems to me 23 that the events which postdate September the 6th, 1995 24 and relate to the negotiations as between the Band and 25 the Government have minimal, if any, relevance to the
1581 mandate of this Inquiry. 2 And so, I object on the grounds that this 3 is not relevant. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 5 to add something to that, Mr. Henderson? 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Merely my 7 support, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Ms. Jones, how is this relevant? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, a 11 number of Counsel have asked a number of witnesses about 12 whether or not the negotiations changed or whether 13 progress was made after the events of September 1995. 14 And those questions have been asked, there 15 has never been an objection to those questions, but the 16 answers are very, very simple and not very descriptive. 17 And one (1) -- one (1) thing that I would 18 like to ask this witness, because he's one of the people 19 who's been asked this question, and he gave an answer 20 that as a result of September, 1995 there was a change, 21 is I'd like to ask what were those changes. 22 And at the start of his examination, I had 23 asked him about five (5) different areas and I think we 24 have evidence about the status of those items prior to 25 September of 1995 and I'd like to ask him a few questions
1591 about the status of those items after September 1995. 2 He has said earlier that he washed his 3 hands of the matter and it appeared to me from looking at 4 the documents, that in terms of the issue of the land 5 claims, he was someone that was and apparently had, an 6 ongoing involvement for a period of time after 1995. 7 And, in fact, I'm now looking at minutes 8 from February 1996 where it appears he was part of the 9 negotiating group. He may well be, because of his 10 experience and participation, someone who can give you 11 some concrete information about the status of those items 12 and explain the answer, what changed after September 13 1995. 14 I don't intend to be a long time, but I 15 would like to flesh out both the question and the answers 16 that have been given to date with no objection from 17 anyone -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's 19 not -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- about that. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it's not 22 so much the status of the negotiations as it is the 23 change, is that what you're saying? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The change
1601 subsequent -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that 4 you're interested in? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Henderson, Ms. Vella, whichever -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, a couple of 9 observations. The fact that the Witness has given some 10 answers to questions about the negotiations doesn't mean 11 that all of those answers and questions are relevant and 12 therefore that should be assumed. 13 Secondly, the -- I still, in my 14 submission, the minutia of the negotiations subsequent to 15 September the 6th does not assist this Inquiry with 16 understanding the facts surrounding the death of Dudley 17 George. 18 We -- as Commission Counsel do give 19 counsel the benefit of the doubt, we do give latitude, we 20 do that because we don't know where a particular line of 21 inquiry is going to go initially, but having heard this 22 line of inquiry, I fail to see the relevance and 23 maintaining my objection. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Henderson?
1611 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, Mr. 2 Commissioner, I will try to be brief but certainly you -- 3 you will recognize, sir, that the subject of the 4 negotiations and the claims and the process of the claims 5 and everything else, is with great respect and I have 6 pointed this out here very early, is not the proper 7 subject of the Provincial Inquiry into matters which are 8 in effect, Federal. 9 The -- the point was made early. I have 10 been for most of the Hearings, I have heard all of these 11 questions, I've rejected to some of them. We could've 12 spent a month on objections rather than let the evidence 13 go with everyone having a clear idea of what's relevant 14 and what's not. 15 To the extent My Friend wants to point 16 perhaps an inconsistency in Mr. Tolsma's evidence, that 17 he had some involvement after the date when he said he 18 stopped, that has already been accomplished because she's 19 giving you some examples. 20 To the extent that things may have changed 21 after 1995, I don't know where that assists the 22 Commission at all because they could have changed several 23 times after 1995. And in fact, they have changed several 24 times after 1995 and as Commission Counsel has indicated 25 Commission Counsel don't intend to take me there, sir.
1621 I don't think you want to go there and at 2 the end of the day, I mean it does have to stop 3 somewhere. So, I mean if -- if My Friend invites an 4 objection to every time we get into this, I'll be please 5 to make it. 6 But I don't think it's necessary and I 7 think it's time to make that statement here and now and 8 perhaps that will provide guidance for everyone. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 You've already indicated that you're not interested in 11 the -- in the status of the negotiations because that 12 really would take us into a territory that we don't want 13 to go. 14 And there is already some evidence that 15 we've heard that there was a change after September '95. 16 I'm not sure how much more you need to go into that. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because as 19 Mr. Henderson points out there's probably changes in 20 those negotiations on and on and on and what's causing 21 them and what -- what the current status is, I don't 22 think it's relevant to this Commission. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Mr. -- Mr. 24 Commissioner, just to try and put it in a little more 25 context in terms part of the role of the Commission is to
1631 make recommendations -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: -- preventing further 4 problems in the future. And if the circumstances or some 5 of the outstanding problems concerning the negotiations 6 are similar now as they were in 1995, and you have 7 information about that, that may assist you in terms of 8 identifying some of the issues or assisting with some of 9 the recommendations. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: And if in your view it 12 doesn't, that's fine, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 you've gone far enough. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 18 Q: And lastly, Mr. Tolsma, you had 19 indicated in the answer to a question from Mr. Ross 20 yesterday that in your view it may be a problem now if 21 the Kettle and Stony Point police or the Anishnaabeg 22 police were to be policing the Stoney Point group at the 23 base and at the camp. 24 And you had -- 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Once again, the
1641 word was, now; today, 2005? My Friend phrased the 2 question in terms of it would be a problem now if the APS 3 were to be policing. Now, I recognize and -- and Ms. 4 Jones is -- Ms. Jones has fairly indicated to you where 5 she intends to go with us to the Part 2 mandate. 6 We are perhaps at some date going to have 7 a discussion about whether the similar incidents referred 8 to in the mandate is, in fact, some sort of solution for 9 the incident that occurred in 1995; I don't think it is. 10 I take it she is foreseeing and will in 11 due course, perhaps, make some submissions that the 12 situation may be similar enough that there will be a 13 similar incident in the same at the same time which would 14 be a -- very unfortunate, and I hope we're not going 15 there either. 16 But, when we get to -- get to the question 17 of what is the situation now if the APS were to do this 18 now, we're ten (10) years after the date that we're 19 looking at. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, 21 you agree? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I agree with Mr. 23 Henderson. Certainly in the Part 2 of this Inquiry we're 24 looking into issues about aboriginal policing and other 25 forms of policing in these situations, but in terms of
1651 the actual situation at the Army Camp Base today, I don't 2 think -- first, I don't think this Witness can really 3 assist us with that, since he's not there and secondly, I 4 don't think it's particularly relevant for Part 1. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. I'm 6 inclined to agree, Ms. Jones, unless you have something 7 more you want to say. It is relevant to Part 2 -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Well -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but it's 10 not relevant here. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, Mr. Commissioner, 12 I was following up on a question that was asked and 13 answered yesterday -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to get some more 16 information and if you won't permit me to do that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- then I won't. 19 And those are my questions, thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much, Ms. Jones. 22 I agree sometimes the line between Part 1 23 and Part 2 gets a little grey, but we're trying to keep 24 them separate. 25 Yes, Ms. McAleer, on behalf of Mr.
1661 Harris...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Tolsma. My name 10 is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the lawyers who's 11 acting for the former Premier, Mike Harris. 12 You agreed in response to a question from 13 Mr. Henderson that approximately three-quarters of the 14 population of Stony Point and Kettle Point have a 15 connection, either through marriage or as a direct 16 descendant, to the Stoney Point land; is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And is it your position that these 19 people also have an interest in what happens to the 20 Stoney Point land? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was that your position back in 23 1993? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, you indicated that in the three
1671 (3) months leading up to the decision to actually occupy 2 the Army camp lands in May of 1993, you had been engaged 3 in discussions with a very small group of people; is that 4 correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you indicated that those 7 people included Robert George, Ron George, Maynard T. 8 George, Janet Cloud and Marlene Cloud and that you've 9 indicated that you thought that was about it; is that 10 correct? 11 A: Well, there -- there might have been 12 a few more that popped in and out, but I can't remember 13 everyone. 14 Q: Okay. Was the group limited to less 15 than ten (10) people? 16 A: Pretty well, yes. 17 Q: Okay. So, would you agree with me, 18 then, that when you decided and actually entered the Army 19 camp grounds in May of 1993, you didn't actually have a 20 mandate from the majority of the people who had an 21 interest in those Stoney Point lands? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No you don't agree with me, or yes 24 you do agree with me? 25 A: Oh, I -- I didn't have a mandate from
1681 a majority of them, no. 2 Q: Okay. And you also discussed briefly 3 the election that had occurred in May of 1993 and Ms. 4 Jones had actually taken you to a newspaper article which 5 I believe was Exhibit P-207 which referred to a 6 membership drive and the fact that only people that have 7 signed a declaration that they in fact wanted to be 8 independent from the Stoney Point -- sorry, from the 9 Kettle and Stony Point Band could vote in that election. 10 Now, did I understand your evidence to be 11 that you don't recall whether, in fact, your group 12 insisted that those declarations be made prior to the 13 election? 14 A: I can't remember exactly, but I 15 remember the election, yes. 16 Q: Do you remember how many people voted 17 in that election? 18 A: No, I didn't keep track. 19 Q: Do you have an estimate as to how 20 many people? 21 A: No, I can't. 22 Q: Okay, well was it less than a hundred 23 (100) people? 24 A: I couldn't say. 25 Q: Okay. Did anybody who was not
1691 actually occupying the Army Camp lands vote in that 2 election? 3 A: They could have. I -- I don't have 4 the papers. I -- I couldn't say unless I looked at the 5 paperwork. 6 Q: Okay. Well, you agreed that three- 7 quarters -- three-quarters of the community had an 8 interest in the Stoney Point land, do you think that you 9 had a majority of that group voting in your election in 10 May of 1993? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You didn't have the majority of that 13 group? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. So, would you agree then that 16 following that election in May of 1993, you still didn't 17 have a mandate from the majority of the people that had 18 an interest in the Stony Point lands. 19 A: No. 20 Q: And again you agree with my 21 proposition that you didn't have a mandate? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Okay. And then there were elections 24 again in 1994 and do you recall how many people 25 participated in those elections?
1701 A: No. 2 Q: Again, did you have the impression 3 that a majority of the people who had an interest in the 4 Stoney Point lands participated in those elections? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. So, again, you didn't have a 7 mandate even following those elections from the majority 8 of the people with an interest in those lands? 9 A: No. 10 Q: In fact, I think you indicated that 11 there were a lot of Stoney Pointers who in fact expressed 12 disapproval of what you and your group were doing by 13 occupying the Stoney Point lands? 14 A: A few, yes. 15 Q: And if we could look at Tab 6 of the 16 brief that Commission Counsel has placed before you. And 17 if we go the 7th page of that brief you should come 18 across a document that at the top says, Camp Ipperwash 19 Occupation Chronology of Events, and it says, 06 May. 20 A: I don't think I have the same one. 21 Q: Okay. I -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab do 23 you have it, Ms. McAleer. 24 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: It's Tab 6, it's 25 the 7th page in if you count the cover page that has the
1711 document referenced. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I must have 3 a different numbering system too. Ms. Vella, I don't 4 have it here either. Is there a different tab number? 5 She said Tab 6. Thank you. 6 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you, Ms. 7 Vella. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You said 9 page 7 or -- or -- 10 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: It's the 7th page 11 in at Tab 6. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 15 Q: It's the page that starts at the top 16 with, 06 May. If we go to the bottom of the page where 17 it says 08 May unknown locatees meeting at which they 18 reaffirm support for Band Chief and Council. 19 Do you recall a meeting that took place on 20 May 8th, 1993 in which the locatees reaffirmed that the 21 Chief and Council in fact were acting on their behalf and 22 not your group? 23 A: On Kettle Point or Stoney Point? 24 Q: I don't know where the meeting took 25 place. It appears that there was a meeting on May 8th
1721 where the locatees met and reaffirmed support for the 2 Band Chief and Council. I would assume that meeting did 3 not take place at Stoney Point. My question to you is: 4 Did you hear about any meeting in May of 1993? 5 A: It's hard to pinpoint because there 6 was a lot of meetings going on in '93. 7 Q: Okay. Well, did you hear about a 8 meeting where Stoney Point locatees assembled and 9 expressed the view that the Band Chief and Council spoke 10 on their behalf and not your group? 11 A: There probably was, yes. 12 Q: Did -- did you hear about that 13 meeting? 14 A: I probably did. I -- I can't 15 remember it right off hand, no. 16 Q: Okay. I want to turn now to 17 discussions revolving around the Provincial Park and if 18 we look at Tab 9 of the brief, which is the co-management 19 agreement that's been previously marked as Exhibit P-170. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One seventy 21 (170) or one seventy-one (171)? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I thought it was one 23 seventy-one (171). 24 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: I may be mistaken, 25 Mr. Commissioner, perhaps it is one seventy-one (171). I
1731 think Ms. Vella's indicating it's P-171. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 4 Q: Do you have that document before you, 5 Mr. Tolsma? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. If you look down to the second 8 paragraph of the letter it indicates: 9 "On March 9th, 1993, approximately 10 thirty (30) days notice was given to 11 the Minister of Natural Resources 12 hereinafter, MNR, via the Honourable 13 Howard Hampton, MPP for the Province of 14 Ontario by written notice to vacate the 15 above mentioned lands." 16 Now, I think we have found that document 17 or that letter in the database and I want to give you a 18 copy and see whether or not you can confirm that that was 19 the letter that's being referred to. 20 And for Counsel, that's Inquiry Document 21 1008310 and I have a copy for the Witness and Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER:
1741 Q: And I can give you a minute to take a 2 look at that letter. It's a -- it's a handwritten letter 3 dated March 9th, 1993 addressed to the Honourable Howard 4 Hampton and it appears to be signed by Maynard T. George. 5 Have you seen that letter before? 6 A: I can't recall it, no. 7 Q: Do you have any reason to believe 8 that this is not the letter that's being referred to in 9 the co-management agreement? 10 A: It's hard to say because I -- I can't 11 recall this -- this letter here. 12 Q: Do you recall another letter dated 13 March 9th, 1993 that was sent to Howard Hampton? 14 A: It's hard to say. It -- it may be, 15 but I can't swear that it is. 16 Q: Okay. That's fine. If I could have 17 this letter marked as an exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-214. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-214. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-214: Document No. 1009310 letter 22 to Hon. Howard Hampton MP 23 from Maynard T. George March 24 09/'93 re: Notice to Vacate, 25 Ipperwash Provincial Park.
1751 2 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 3 Q: And Mr. Tolsma -- 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just to confirm -- 5 just to confirm, Mr. Commissioner, that document which is 6 being marked as an exhibit is being identified as the one 7 which the Witness could not identify, but might have been 8 the letter sent to Howard Hampton. Thank you. 9 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: And perhaps if we 10 hear from Mr. Hampton then he may be able to confirm 11 that. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Our practice has been 13 to mark -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mark -- 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- these as exhibits, 16 however, it's clear from the evidence that this Witness 17 has not been able to identify this and so it will go to 18 weight at the end of the day unless it's authenticated to 19 another Witness, but our practice has been to mark these 20 as exhibits. It doesn't mean that they're in for the 21 truth of the content. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 25 Q: Mr. Tolsma, in the second -- well,
1761 actually, in -- in the first paragraph of the letter it 2 says: 3 "Subject to the above lands, we will 4 forward to your department copies of 5 all plans, maps, et cetera on or about 6 March 15th, 1993." 7 It continues: 8 "Presently our elderly are preparing a 9 comprehensive map in accordance to 10 their documentation, memory and 11 research. These documents will be 12 filed in the Lambton Registry Office on 13 or before March 15th, 1993." 14 Do you recall any discussions with Maynard 15 George about filing records in the Lambton Registry 16 Office? 17 A: He talked about that quite often. 18 Q: Okay. Do you recall if that was, in 19 fact, done? 20 A: I can't say for sure, but he probably 21 tried, but we got a lot of resistence from there. 22 Q: Okay. Ms. Vella then took you to Tab 23 21 in her examination which is a draft response from Mr. 24 Hampton. 25
1771 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: It's at Tab 21, if we turn in four 4 (4) pages there's a letter addressed, "Dear Mr. George". 5 It's not signed, but it says "yours truly, Howard 6 Hampton". 7 And Ms. Vella had asked you whether or not 8 you, in fact, had seen a final version of that letter and 9 you indicated that you probably had, but that you weren't 10 certain. 11 Again, we've found a document in the 12 database that appears to be the final version of the 13 response to Maynard T. George's letter and I'd like to 14 put that letter before the Witness. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The letter 16 that you're referring to, the draft, has already been 17 marked as an exhibit. 18 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: It has, it's -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One eighty 20 (180). 21 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: -- it's P-180. 22 This is a different letter. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1781 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: And for My 2 Friends, that's Inquiry Document 1007820. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 7 Q: And that's a letter dated June 14th, 8 1993 addressed to Maynard Travis George and you'll see 9 that the very first paragraph indicates: 10 "The Minister of Natural Resources, 11 Howard Hampton, has asked me to respond 12 to your letter of March 9th, 1993 13 concerning Ipperwash Provincial Park." 14 And then that letter is actually signed by 15 Ron Baldwin, the district manager. 16 Have you seen this letter before, Mr. 17 Tolsma? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I don't recognise it. 22 Q: Do you remember having any discussion 23 with Maynard Travis George about receiving a response to 24 his letter of March 9th, 1993? 25 A: No, I can't remember that, no.
1791 Q: Okay. Well then, Mr. Commissioner, 2 I'd ask to mark this as an exhibit on the same basis that 3 we marked the previous letter to Mr. Hampton. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The number 5 would be -- 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-215. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-215, on 8 the same basis. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-215: Document 1007820 Letter from 11 Howard Hampton signed by Ron 12 Baldwin June 24/'93 in 13 response to Maynard T. George 14 March 09/'93 Letter 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 17 Q: And if we could just put that aside 18 for a minute, Mr. Tolsma, I'm going to come back to it. 19 Now, assuming that Mr. George received 20 this letter on June 14th, 1993, were you aware of any 21 other response from Mr. Hampton or anybody writing on his 22 response prior to June 14th of 1993? 23 A: It's hard to remember this stuff 24 because, like, this one here it shows that Maynard wrote 25 this letter and I can't say for sure. If my signature's
1801 not on it, then I can't answer to it, because if my 2 signature's on it, then I must have known something about 3 it that time, but only his is there and -- sorry, I just 4 can't remember. 5 Q: Okay. Well, my question was: Do you 6 have any reason to believe that you had received a 7 response from Mr. Hampton or his office prior to June of 8 1993? 9 A: I could have, but again, I can't 10 remember. 11 Q: Okay. And your signature may not be 12 on the letter that Mr. George wrote to Mr. Hampton, but 13 your signature is on the co-management agreement at Tab 9 14 that refers to a letter sent to Mr. Hampton on March 9th, 15 1993. 16 That's correct, isn't it? 17 A: Well, I don't know, I'll have to look 18 first. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 23 A: My signature is on this one, yes. 24 Q: Right and it -- it refers to the 25 letter, To Mr. Hampton of March 9th, 1993 in the second
1811 paragraph on the first page. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: So, you were aware that that letter 4 had been sent? 5 A: I must've. My signature's there's 6 so, like I said, I can't remember. 7 Q: Now, after you and your group 8 occupied the lands on May 6th, 1993, I understand that 9 the first communication that you had with respect to the 10 Provincial Park was the notice that Maynard T. George 11 sent to -- or I think served on a student who was working 12 for the MNR in the Provincial Park on March -- sorry, on 13 May 18th, 1993. 14 Is that your understanding? 15 A: I don't know who he served it on, no, 16 I don't. 17 Q: Did you understand that he had served 18 a notice on somebody? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: On March -- sorry, on May 18th, 1993? 21 A: I know he served it on someone but 22 the date? 23 Q: Okay. Well you had -- you attended a 24 meeting on May 19th, 1993 with officials in the 25 Provincial Park?
1821 A: Okay. 2 Q: That's correct; isn't it? 3 A: Probably is, yes. 4 Q: Well that -- that's the meeting 5 that's referred to in the co-management agreement that's 6 at Tab 9, isn't it? 7 A: I attended a meeting, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And was it your understanding 9 that that meeting was in response to a notice that had 10 been served on the Provincial Park? 11 A: Yes 12 Q: Okay. And if we look at Tab 13 which 13 has been previously marked as Exhibit P-174. There's a 14 letter dated May 20, 1993 from Acting Staff Sergeant, is 15 it Babcock (sic), you see that Mr. Tolsma? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: It's P-174. And that letter 18 indicates a list of attendees at the meeting. And I just 19 want to go over this with you to see whether or not you 20 recall these people being present at that meeting. 21 "The Chief Carl George and historian 22 Maynard George met with Park 23 superintendents, Les Kobayashi, Brent 24 Dodson (sic), Aylmer district 25 enforcement specialist and Terry
1831 Humberstone, MNR First Nation 2 specialist." 3 Do you recall Mr. Kobayashi being present 4 at that meeting? 5 A: On the Provincial Park, right? He 6 probably was there, yes. 7 Q: Did you know Mr. Kobayashi prior to 8 that meeting in the Provincial Park? 9 A: I didn't know him personally, no, 10 because I did work in a Pinery Park before that and when 11 I was done with my -- my term then he came in to run the 12 Park. But I -- I never met him before that. 13 Q: You knew him by name? 14 A: I know him by name, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And then there's a reference 16 to a Brett Dodson, did you know Mr. Dodson in May of 17 1993? 18 A: Dodson. No, by name, no. I would 19 have to see his face to recognize him. 20 Q: Okay. So, you don't recall being 21 introduced to him at this meeting on May 19th? 22 A: Well, I probably was but I -- I'm bad 23 with names. 24 Q: What about Terry Humberstone? 25 A: No, I don't remember that name.
1841 Q: Do you remember being introduced to 2 somebody who is an MNR First Nation specialist? 3 A: No. I remember Kobayshi but the rest 4 I can't remember their names. 5 Q: Now, with respect to what was 6 discussed at that meeting, if we could turn back to Tab 7 9. And in particular at the bottom of the first page, 8 it's: 9 "1. The structure of approximately six 10 (6) metre square or twenty (20) feet 11 for an information booth on Native 12 title and history." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Ms. Vella asked you about that 15 and you indicated that you -- you thought that perhaps 16 you've been given a portion of the Park store or 17 something like that to hand out pamphlets, but you 18 couldn't recall whether it was actually in the Park store 19 -- Park store or in another small building and I just 20 want to show you some documents that may help refresh 21 your memory with respect to whether or not you in fact 22 brought down a building or whether or not Mr. Maynard 23 George brought down a building. 24 If you could look at Tab 20, there's a 25 twenty-two (22) page fax and if we look at the 16th page
1851 of that fax, you'll see at the very top it -- it tells 2 you what page number out of twenty-two (22) it is. If 3 you go to page 16 of 22 you'll come across a document 4 that's dated Tuesday, May 25th, 1993? 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: And if we look at that very last 7 paragraph under the heading, CMNR Terry Humberstone -- 8 A: Yes? 9 Q: -- it says: 10 "Ipperwash Park superintendent Les 11 Kobayashi met with Maynard George 12 Friday afternoon and reviewed the 13 letter that would be distributed to 14 Park visitors. Maynard George appeared 15 satisfied with the contents and advised 16 Les Kobayashi that First Nations 17 drummers would be present over the 18 weekend. He also reconfirmed that a 19 list of First Nation participants would 20 be provided to the MNR." 21 Turn the page. 22 "The letter was distributed to Park 23 visitors, mostly people in the late 24 teens to early 20s, however, there were 25 no First Nations people at the Park all
1861 weekend. It is not clear why. A 2 vehicle trailer remains on the Park 3 site. 4 It was also noted that in addition to 5 the co-management request stated at the 6 previous meeting, the Stoney Point 7 First Nation has requested an MNR 8 vehicle to pick up garbage at Camp 9 Ipperwash. 10 The letter addressed to Maynard George 11 was given to interim Chief Carl 12 George." 13 Now, I have a number of questions arising 14 from that report by Mr. Humberstone. First of all, 15 there's a reference to a vehicle trailer. Does that help 16 refresh your memory as to whether or not the First 17 Nations group brought down some kind of vehicle or 18 trailer or building to the Park in which to hand out 19 pamphlets? 20 A: I don't know. Maynard T. may have 21 brought a trailer down later on, but I can't remember any 22 trailer being there, all I can remember is, like a ticket 23 booth for handing pamphlets out. 24 Q: Okay. And -- and the pamphlets, were 25 they drafted by your group or were they prepared by the
1871 MNR or do you know? 2 A: Maynard T., I believe it was. 3 Q: And did you see those pamphlets 4 before they were handed out? 5 A: I probably did. It just -- I think 6 if I refer to them correctly, it was just explaining what 7 was it now -- giving a history of the people and the 8 land. 9 Q: Okay. Do -- do you know who handed 10 them out? 11 A: As far as I can -- I believe it would 12 -- could have been Maynard -- Maynard T. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But I can't be for sure, no. 15 Q: Okay. Because I was a little 16 confused by the reference to no First Nation people 17 having been in the Park that weekend, which led me to 18 believe that the MNR must have handed out the pamphlets. 19 Do you have any information that could 20 assist us as to who handed them out? 21 A: I -- I couldn't -- I couldn't say for 22 sure because I wasn't there. 23 Q: Okay. But -- but did you hear 24 anything about it? 25 A: I knew about it, but I didn't know
1881 who was actually handing them out that weekend. 2 Q: Did you hear anything about plans to 3 have drummers in the Park that weekend? 4 A: I can't recall that, no. 5 Q: The reference to garbage pickup by 6 the MNR or a request that the MNR pick up garbage in the 7 Army Camp, do -- do you know anything about that? 8 A: I think what they're referring to is 9 along the beach, like, around in the sand -- on the other 10 side of the sand dunes. 11 Q: Do you recall your group making a 12 request that the MNR clean up the beach, I guess in front 13 of the -- in front of the Army camp, is that what you're 14 talking about? 15 A: Yes, along the beach. 16 Q: Okay. Do you remember your group 17 making a request that the MNR clean up that beach front? 18 A: I -- I think we asked at one time, 19 because there was a lot of people walking back and forth 20 and there was a lot of papers accumulating along there. 21 Q: And do you know whether or not the 22 MNR replied to your request and cleaned up the beach? 23 A: I don't -- I can't remember that, no. 24 Q: And finally, do you recall getting a 25 letter addressed to Maynard T. George that day or that
1891 weekend in May of 1993? 2 A: I don't remember of any. 3 Q: Okay. Now, we turn to Tab 25, but 4 before I do that, Mr. Commissioner, I should mark that as 5 the next exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-216. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 8 minute. Twenty-five (25), isn't that the letter of June 9 14th? 10 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: No, this would be 11 the -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's another 13 letter? 14 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: -- the minutes of 15 May 25th, 1993 being pages 16 and 17 of that twenty-two 16 (22) page fax. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 25? 18 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Yes, but I don't 19 propose to mark all of Tab 25 or sorry, Tab 20, just 20 those two (2) pages. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 20. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And just for 23 clarification, for the record again, of course these 24 documents have not been identified or authenticated as 25 will be clear on the face of the record, so they're
1901 really here so that everyone can understand what document 2 we've gone to, and it will go to weight if no further 3 evidence is adduced with respect to them. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 Is that page 16 is being marked as an exhibit on -- 6 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: It's page 16 and 7 17 of the twenty-two (22) page fax at -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 16 and 17. 9 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: -- Tab 20. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: That'll be P-216. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-216: Document No. 1007625 June 17 01/'93 confidential meeting 18 notes of Inter-Ministerial 19 officials committee on 20 Aboriginal Emergencies 21 Working Group Meeting re: 22 Camp Ipperwash and Ipperwash 23 Provincial Park on May 24 25/'93, pages 16 and 17. 25
1911 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 2 Q: Now, we could go to the letter of 3 June 14th, 1993 which is at Tab 25 of your brief. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And that's a letter dated June 14th, 8 1993 from Ron Baldwin to chief Tom Bressette, and the 9 reason I draw it to your attention, Mr. Tolsma, is if you 10 look at the third paragraph on the first page, half way 11 through the paragraph the sentence starts with: 12 "I am advised that the structure..." 13 Do you see that, near the bottom of the 14 page? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Are you with me? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: "I am advised that the structure that 21 had been placed in the Park by Maynard 22 George on May 19th, was voluntarily 23 removed during the night of June 3rd. 24 It is not known if this move is 25 temporary in nature as staff at the
1921 Park were not approached prior to the 2 removal." 3 Now, does that help refresh your memory 4 with respect to whether or not there was a building that 5 had been placed in the Provincial Park by your group? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. So, you don't know anything 8 about its removal then, on June 3rd? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now, if we can go back to the co- 11 management agreement at Tab 9. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: The second page. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: The second paragraph begins with: 20 "Some of the lands within Ipperwash..." 21 Do you see that, Mr. Tolsma? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: It's the small paragraph in the
1931 middle of the page. 2 A: Well, okay, it's just hard to read 3 here. 4 Q: Right, well I'll read it for you 5 then. It's says: 6 "Some of the lands within Ipperwash 7 Park are sacred burial grounds. These 8 areas must be reported and documented 9 by our First Nations structures." 10 Now my question to you is in May of 1993 11 what was the basis for your belief that there were burial 12 grounds within the Provincial Park? 13 A: I -- I read a lot of the documents 14 and Maynard got a letter and some brief like small maps 15 written from the archives and I believe it was like -- I 16 was trying to remember this for all week long, and it was 17 a Beattie Greenbird, he was a councillor at Kettle Point 18 back in '42 or something like that, that was trying to 19 get the land back and from -- he wrote a letter stating 20 that he can remember back with his father told him that 21 there was grave sites and he drew a hand drawn map of the 22 grave sites. 23 Q: Okay. Is this the map that you were 24 referring to earlier in your evidence? 25 A: Yes. Yes.
1941 Q: Okay. And are you certain that you 2 had that map prior to writing this letter in May of 1993? 3 A: I don't remember exactly when, but I 4 can remember reading that. 5 Q: But you don't when you read it? 6 A: No. I can't say for sure. 7 Q: Now when Ms. Vella was asking you 8 about this passage in this document, you had indicated 9 that we -- we pointed out where the grave sites were. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: To whom did you point out the grave 12 sites? 13 A: I told Maynard T. about them and I 14 pointed it out to him. I can't remember exactly who 15 else. 16 Q: Okay. Did you point them out to 17 anybody at your meeting at the Park on May 19th? 18 A: I can't remember that. 19 Q: Now the letter indicates -- sorry, 20 the May 19th co-management letter that we're looking at, 21 indicates that these structures must be recorded and 22 documented by our First Nation's people. 23 Did your group take any steps after May 24 19th, 1993 to actually record or document these burial 25 sites?
1951 A: I think Maynard mentioned it. I 2 don't know what he done. 3 Q: Okay. You didn't take any steps, did 4 you? 5 A: None that I can remember. 6 Q: Do you recall anybody else in your 7 group except for Maynard T. take any steps? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And am I correct, Mr. Tolsma, that 10 what your group was trying to accomplish here was to have 11 these burial grounds identified and marked off, is that 12 what you wanted to do? 13 A: Yes. Yes. 14 Q: And at this point in May of 1993, 15 your group was not asking to have the Provincial Park 16 closed because of the burial grounds? 17 A: We probably did. 18 Q: Well, do you recall asking the 19 Provincial Park or the MNR to close the Park because of 20 burial sites? 21 A: I can't recall it, no. 22 Q: And it's not in this letter that 23 we're looking at. 24 A: No, I can't recall it. We probably 25 mentioned it but like I said, to be 100 percent sure, I
1961 can't answer that because I don't remember. 2 Q: And I take it you don't recall who 3 you may have mentioned it to? 4 A: We may have brought it up to 5 Kobayashi, I -- like again, I can't be for sure. 6 Q: You're just guessing now though 7 aren't you? 8 A: I am saying that I can't be sure. We 9 may have. I'm not guessing, I said we may have. 10 Q: But you have no specific recollection 11 of doing so? 12 A: No. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 Klippenstein...? 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 16 Commissioner, out of fairness to the Witness, on page 2 17 of that Tab in the first unnumbered sentence, there is a 18 reference which may or may not be relevant. 19 And out of fairness to the witness, I -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 21 Number 6? 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: The sentence 23 beginning: 24 "In consideration of this short term 25 agreement"
1971 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I see. 2 So, that paragraph isn't numbered, but... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: That's the 7 document at Tab 9, I -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm 9 looking at that document. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think, Mr. 11 Klippenstein, I mean, I can read it out for you but this 12 is the same letter that we're looking at, notice, above 13 it reads: 14 "In consideration of this short term 15 agreement we will withhold members from 16 our First Nations structure from 17 immediate take over and occupation." 18 And I believe My Friend is indicating that 19 perhaps this should be brought to the Witness' attention 20 to refresh his memory as to whether they in fact 21 communicated and intents to take over the Park because of 22 the burial grounds in '93. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: No, that wasn't the intent. 25 It was to make them aware of it.
1981 2 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 3 Q: So, that doesn't assist to refresh 4 your memory? 5 A: It's hard to remember these -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, no, I think in 7 fairness what the Witness has said is that it wasn't 8 their actual intention to take over the Park at that 9 time, but does it refresh his memory in relation to 10 whether they communicated that that was a possibility at 11 the time. 12 THE WITNESS: It wasn't a possibility to 13 take it over, no. 14 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 17 Q: Now, if we could back to the letter 18 from Mr. Baldwin that I handed up to you, dated June 19 14th, 1993. And you indicated that you haven't -- you 20 had not previously seen a copy of this letter. 21 But, I want to put to you the message that 22 is being conveyed in this letter to see whether or not 23 that was your understanding of the Provincial 24 Government's position at the time. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This wasn't
1991 a letter to him. This letter's addressed to Mr. Maynard 2 T. -- 3 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: That's correct. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- George. 5 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: That's correct, 6 but it conveys the NDP's Government's position at the 7 time -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: -- and I want to 10 ask this witness whether he was aware of that position or 11 had any discussions with Mr. Maynard George about it. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 14 Q: If we look at that letter, the third 15 full paragraph, first page. 16 "In 1928, the Chippewas of Kettle and 17 Stony Point surrendered for sale 18 approximately three hundred and 19 seventy-seven (377) acres to the 20 Federal Government. These lands were 21 subsequently patented by the Federal 22 Government to a private individual in 23 1929. 24 In 1938 the Ontario Government for 25 purposes of establishing a Provincial
2001 park purchased a hundred and nine (109) 2 acres of this land from four (4) 3 private individuals." 4 Now, did you appreciate in May of 1993 or 5 in June of 1993 that the NDP Provincial Government's 6 position was that that land had been surrendered in 1928? 7 A: Did I appreciate it? 8 Q: Yes. Did you understand that that 9 was the position that the Provincial Government -- 10 A: Oh, I understood that it was the 11 position of the Federal Government, yes. 12 Q: Right, I'm not asking you if you 13 greed with it, but I just wanted to know -- 14 A: Yes, I -- 15 Q: -- if you understood that? 16 A: I understand that. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You understood that was their 20 position? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Sorry, just so we're clear. Ms.
2011 Vella's indicating that you said Federal Government. My 2 question is -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- with respect to the Provincial 5 Government. 6 A: Provincial, okay, yes. 7 Q: You understood -- 8 A: I understood that, yeah, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And then if we continue in the 10 letter: 11 "From our review it would appear that 12 in 18 -- that the 1850 legislation 13 known as an Act for the protection of 14 the Indians in Upper Canada from 15 imposition and the property occupied or 16 enjoyed by them from trespass and 17 injury, has been repealed by the 18 statutes of the Dominion of Canada, 19 1869 and 1876". 20 New paragraph: 21 "Accordingly, through third party 22 purchase, the Ontario Crown is in 23 lawful possession of those lands 24 comprising Ipperwash Provincial Park. 25 The Bailiff's process and documentation
2021 served on Park staff cannot therefore 2 be considered valid." 3 Now, again, Mr. Tolsma, was it your 4 understanding in June of 1993 that it was the Provincial 5 Government of the day's position that the Province was in 6 lawful possession of those lands? 7 A: Yes, but there also arises another 8 argument. 9 Q: Well, I -- I'm -- don't know that 10 this is the time to discuss that other argument, but -- 11 A: No, it's not -- it's not the -- it's 12 not the time, but I -- I wouldn't want to get to that 13 right now anyway. 14 Q: Well -- 15 A: I mentioned it earlier on. 16 Q: Okay. Again, I'm not asking if you 17 agree with that, I just want -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- to understand that you understood. 20 A: I understand it, yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now, the last paragraph of 22 that letter: 23 "I want also to confirm that the 24 Ministry of Natural Resources will 25 address matters of information sharing
2031 and economic opportunity pertinent to 2 aboriginal peoples' interest respecting 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park with the 4 Chief and Council for the Kettle and 5 Stony Point First Nation." 6 Now again, was it your understanding that 7 the Provincial Government's position of the day was that 8 they would only discuss matters regarding Stoney Point 9 land or claims to Stoney Point land with the Band, Chief 10 and Council? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that being the Kettle Point and 13 Stony Point official Indian Act Band and Council? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at any point through 1993 or 1994 16 up until the change of government in 1995, did you have 17 any reason to believe that the Provincial Government's 18 position with respect to these issues had changed in any 19 way? 20 A: Changed to -- in what? 21 Q: Well, let's -- let's talk about the 22 first point, that the land had been surrendered in 1928. 23 Did anything happen in 1993/1994 or up until the change 24 of Government in 1995 that led you to believe that the 25 Provincial Government had changed their view as to
2041 whether or not that piece of property had been 2 surrendered in 1928? 3 A: They alway made it clear that it was 4 surrendered. 5 Q: They didn't change their position, 6 did they? 7 A: No, they did not. 8 Q: Okay. And with respect to whether or 9 not the Province was in proper possession of that 10 property, they didn't change their position either, did 11 they? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And with respect to negotiating only 14 with the Indian Act Band and Council as opposed to your 15 group, they didn't change their position either, did 16 they? 17 A: They wouldn't talk to us, but I don't 18 think they even talked to Kettle and Stony Point Council 19 neither. 20 Q: Okay. But, they -- they didn't start 21 talking to you or negotiating with you -- 22 A: No, no. 23 Q: -- or any of your group? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And just on that last point,
2051 it appears that on June 14, 1993, Mr. Baldwin also 2 addressed a letter to Chief Tom Bressette and we looked 3 at that letter earlier at Tab 25. Do you have that 4 document? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you see it's signed by Mr. 7 Baldwin, addressed to Chief Tom Bressette? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And again, in the second last 10 paragraph, you'll see it says: 11 "I want to confirm that the Ministry of 12 Natural Resources will address matters 13 of information sharing and economic 14 opportunity pertinent to aboriginal 15 peoples' interest respecting Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park with you as Chief and 17 Council for the Kettle and Stony Point 18 First Nation." 19 Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that's consistent with your 22 understanding that they would only speak to the Kettle 23 and Stony Point Council and Chief? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I see it's
2061 five (5) after 3:00, would this be an appropriate place 2 to take a -- a break? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you still 4 have a bit to go? 5 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Probably about ten 6 (10) minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 8 would be a good time to adjourn for a break. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 1:07 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 1:25 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's carry 18 on. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER. 21 Q: Mr. Tolsma, I just want to ask you a 22 couple of brief questions about the helicopter shooting 23 incident. You indicated that you made the statement to 24 the OPP in 2003 with respect to Abraham George's 25 involvement because it was common knowledge at that point
2071 that Abraham George had taken a shot at the helicopter. 2 My question is: When did it become common 3 knowledge that Abraham George was the individual who had 4 shot at the helicopter? 5 A: For myself? 6 Q: No. You -- you said it was common 7 knowledge and I'm trying to figure out when was it that 8 people -- well let's with a group of occupiers, back in 9 August of 1993 when this incident took place, were there 10 discussions among the occupiers indicating that Abraham 11 George had been the person who had shot at the 12 helicopter? 13 A: As far as I know, that -- that night 14 when Robert George come and picked me up and the next day 15 that -- that's when I took notice that every -- everyone 16 was talking about it. 17 Q: Everyone who was occupying the Stoney 18 Point grounds? 19 A: Well, I shouldn't say everyone. The 20 ones that I briefly talked to they were talking. 21 Q: Okay. Would that be the members of 22 Abraham George's family? Did you speak to them about it? 23 A: Maybe some of them but not -- not all 24 of them, no. 25 Q: Do you remember who?
2081 A: No. Because there was a lot of 2 confusion at that time. 3 Q: But people were talking about it? I 4 mean obvious -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now, you've been asked a 7 number of questions about the Federal negotiating team 8 and your role on that team. As I understood your 9 evidence, you became involved in or about the fall of 10 1993 and you were on that team I guess initially for a 11 period of about a year is what you had indicated. 12 Do I have that correct? 13 A: That's about right, I think so, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And Ms Vella had asked you 15 whether the Provincial Park was ever on the table and you 16 had indicated that it was in the sense that you had 17 brought up the issue regarding the way in which it had 18 been sold back in 1928; is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Ms. Vella then asked you 21 whether or not there was anyone at the table on behalf of 22 the Province and you responded by saying that you 23 believed at the end it was only the lawyers who had left. 24 And I didn't understand what you meant by that answer. 25 Was there, in fact, anybody from the
2091 Province at the table discussing the issue with 2 Provincial Park land? 3 A: In the beginning three I was asked 4 who the negotiator was and it just -- I just thought of 5 his name today and that was Fred -- Fred McGuire. He was 6 the negotiator for the Federal Government. And at that 7 time we pretty well only -- if I remember correctly, we 8 met with him and we didn't -- he kept promising 9 everything and he'd give nothing so we asked to get 10 someone else. 11 Q: But do you recall whether or not 12 there was any Provincial representatives that -- 13 A: I can't remember, no. Later on there 14 was. In future meetings. 15 Q: And when you say later on, do you 16 mean post-September of 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay, but prior to September of 1995? 19 A: I can't remember because there was 20 only -- as far as I can recall -- there was only the 21 negotiator. 22 Q: The Federal negotiator? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Tolsma, those 25 are all my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
2101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Ms. McAleer. 3 I think Mr. Sulman is next on behalf of 4 Mr. Beaubien. 5 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 afternoon. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 11 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Tolsma. As the 12 Commissioner said, I represent Marcel Beaubien who was 13 the Provincial Member of Parliament back in 1995 in the 14 area covering the Ipperwash Park area. 15 And so you know what I'm going to do, 16 you've been asked a lot of questions, Mr. Tolsma, over 17 the last several days, I -- what I really am going to do 18 is ask you some questions in some discrete, narrow areas 19 just to clarify what I've heard. Okay? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, in response to questions from 22 Ms. Vella on February 9th, you indicated that during the 23 period you were resident at the Army Camp there were 24 discussions among the occupants of taking over the 25 Provincial Park, correct?
2111 A: Taking it over? 2 Q: Yes, occupying the Provincial Park? 3 Do you recall telling Ms. Vella that on February 9th? 4 A: You'd have to -- no, I don't recall - 5 - I remember talking about it but I -- I don't think I 6 said we were going to take it over. 7 Q: Yeah, okay. What were you -- you 8 don't recall telling Ms. Vella that there were 9 discussions among the occupants of at -- at some time in 10 the future taking over the Provincial Park? 11 A: To give it back, probably. 12 Q: To give it back to -- 13 A: Kettle and Stony Point, also -- 14 Q: So, what I was asking you was, among 15 the people who -- who were resident at the Army Camp, 16 there were -- I believe you told Ms. Vella that from time 17 to time there were discussions that at some point you'd 18 take the -- the Provincial Park should come back to the 19 Stoney Pointers? 20 A: Oh, yes, yes. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Yeah, as along -- okay, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And yesterday you told Mr. 24 Ross that the reason that you had for wanting to have the 25 land as you described it, returned to the Stoney Pointers
2121 is because the 1928 surrender was bad and the land should 2 not have been surrendered so they should be returned to 3 aboriginal control? 4 A: It should -- it should have been, 5 yes. 6 Q: But the reason that you gave Mr. Ross 7 yesterday, your words as I recall were, that the 8 surrender was bad? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And in response to some other 11 questions from Ms. Vella back on February 9th, you told 12 her that you had been on a crew that worked to restore 13 and re- fence the burial site at what was then the Army 14 Camp Base, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in addition to simply re-fencing 17 that property, the Department of National Defence 18 officials were made aware of the importance of the burial 19 site in the Army Base and after that re-fencing that 20 proved effective to protect the grave site at the Army 21 Base, correct? 22 A: When we were asked to -- I don't know 23 how that came about, but I was work -- I think it came 24 from Kettle Point to clean it up and I think we were 25 directed to put a fence up.
2131 And at that time they were also getting 2 sand from Camp Ipperwash right next to the grave sites 3 there because at that time they were building a new 4 subdivision on Kettle Point and after they took the sand 5 out then we were told to put the fence up because -- and 6 I was asked whereabouts is the boundary for the grave 7 site. 8 And I said I -- I couldn't say because I 9 was talking to Sergeant Major White and one (1) of the 10 drivers there that, you know, that drove the truck for 11 the workers, he also drove a bulldozer and he was one (1) 12 of them that was pushing the sand around so the backhoes 13 could scoop it up and put it in the trucks and he waved 14 me over and he said -- he said, I was told if I was to 15 find any bones I was supposed to keep my mouth shut and 16 at that time, that's when I was approached and asked 17 whereabouts does the grave sites end, and I said I -- I 18 couldn't say. 19 So, I think it was Sergeant Major White 20 told us to put the fence around and to go so far, because 21 I asked why the indentations were in the sand, and what 22 he told me was they were fox holes where they done their 23 training. 24 And -- so I didn't say anything to him and 25 we just put the fence up where he told us to and I can't
2141 remember if I -- I think I told Tom Bressette about that 2 at that time. 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: But I can't be 100 percent sure if -- 5 Q: Okay. What I asked you specifically 6 was, after those fences were put up and you were on that 7 crew, the grave sites that were there that were marked, 8 were effectively protected by the work that you did -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- against further disturbance, 11 right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And now that you also told Ms. 14 Vella about -- and it's been asked in several different 15 ways, but you told her about three (3) small grave sites 16 in the Provincial Park, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you told us on February 9th, that 19 you became aware of these locations because you've seen 20 them on the map that Maynard T. George had, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And yesterday, I believe it was, you 23 told us that it was Maynard who had the map and he showed 24 you where the sites were when you first saw that map in 25 1993, right?
2151 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And what I want to know, in 3 May 1993, you've just gone through with several people 4 and I'm not going to go into depth on it, but there was a 5 letter sent to the Park Superintendent, Les Kobayashi 6 which is Exhibit 171, and you'll recall yesterday, Mr. 7 Henderson asking you a couple of questions about that. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And Mr. Henderson -- they're prepared 11 to put it up on the screen, but I'm going to quote you 12 what Mr. Henderson said yesterday. If you have any 13 problem we can get it up on the screen. 14 Mr. Henderson referred you to a paragraph 15 which said: 16 "Some of the lands within the Ipperwash 17 Park are sacred burial grounds." 18 Let's see whether -- we can go to it right 19 away, if you'd like. I think it's on page 2 and it's 20 near the end. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Right there. It's not very clear 25 but...
2161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: There we go. Can you see that? I 4 realize that on the angle you're on, Mr. Tolsma, it's a 5 little hard to see that, so... 6 Have you got it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You've got it in front of you now, 13 sir? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you see that small -- small 16 paragraph? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what the paragraph says for the 19 record is: 20 "Some of the lands within the Ipperwash 21 Park are sacred burial grounds. These 22 must be recorded and documented by our 23 First Nations structure." 24 Do you see that, sir? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2171 Q: And I -- what I'm interested in is 2 the words, First Nations structure. I take it that you 3 mean, well maybe you don't, but my interpretation is that 4 you mean Band, that means Band or persons within the 5 Band's direction? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And the map that Maynard T. 8 George had, I think we can agree would be a record or 9 documentation of the location of those burial grounds, 10 right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And these three (3) small 13 burial grounds in the Park, if recorded and documented by 14 the Band or your first -- First Nations structure, could 15 then have been fenced off and protected just as you'd 16 done at the Federal Army Base, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And -- 19 A: They could have. Did you say they 20 were or -- 21 Q: No, no, they could have been. 22 A: Oh, they could have been, yes. 23 Q: They weren't, but they could have 24 been, correct? 25 A: Yes, yes.
2181 Q: But they'd have to be recorded and 2 documented just -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- as you said in the letter, but 5 that never occurred, did it? They were never recorded 6 and documented, to your knowledge? 7 A: Not that I can remember. 8 Q: No. And you haven't produced that 9 map to Commission Counsel because you don't have it? 10 A: I don't have it. 11 Q: Right. And the last time you saw it, 12 I take it was in the hands of Maynard T. George? 13 A: That map you're referring to and what 14 I was referring to was a handwritten letter from Beattie 15 Greenbird and he drew from his memory that he pinpointed 16 where the grave sites were. 17 Q: Right. But, the last time you saw 18 it. You didn't produce it because you don't have it 19 which is fair? 20 A: That's right. That's right. 21 Q: But the last time you saw it was in 22 the hands or custody of Maynard T. George, right. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And just to make some things 25 clear in my notes, you never did meet with Superintendent
2191 Kobayashi and present him with that map and you were 2 never present at a meeting where Maynard T. George would 3 have presented him with that map, correct? 4 A: We were at a meeting but I can't 5 remember if we presented it or not. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: We may -- may have. 8 Q: But you can't be sure of that? 9 A: No, I can't be sure. 10 Q: And Maynard, if he was at that 11 meeting, he might be able to tell us whether he presented 12 it, correct? 13 A: He may be able, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And/or Mr. Kobayashi would 15 certainly be the other person who could tell us whether 16 he was presented a map, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: But to the best of your knowledge and 19 that's what we have, is that the map -- you don't recall 20 a map ever being presented to -- 21 A: I can't recall all the paperwork that 22 was presented, no. 23 Q: And you know you didn't do it anyway? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Have you ever, sir, ever heard
2201 of a place called Serpent Mound Park located in Ontario 2 near Peterborough? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Let me try to -- you've never 5 heard of it at all of a burial ground called Serpent 6 Mound Park that the Hiawatha First Nation occupies? 7 A: I can't recall any, no. 8 Q: Okay. Well, we'll -- maybe someone 9 else in the evidence will -- maybe someone from MNR will 10 be able to tell us the details of that because that's a 11 burial that was once a Provincial Park. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: On February 9th, at the end of her 14 examination on that day as Ms. Vella, and other 15 Commission Counsel want to do, she asked you how this 16 tragic incident of September 1995 could have been 17 avoided. 18 Now, that was the -- we thought it was the 19 end of the evidence but you recall don't you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes? I'm sorry I didn't hear? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I would like to ask you a 24 similar question but I would like to be a little more 25 specific in mine, sir, okay?
2211 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: I would like to make a suggestion to 3 you and that is if the justification for entering the 4 Provincial Park in September 1995 was the protection of 5 burial sites, this occupation, the confrontation and 6 ultimately the tragic death of Dudley George, could all 7 have been avoided if the locations of the three (3) 8 burial sites were communicated to the Provincial Park 9 officials and the Provincial Park officials fenced off 10 and protected those areas, correct? 11 OBJ MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I have an 12 objection. I think that the witness' evidence has been 13 mis-characterized. I recall him testifying that the 14 reason that -- that he thought that the Provincial Park 15 belonged to the Stony Point nation was not because of 16 burial grounds but rather because of the fact that it was 17 part of their traditional territory. 18 And so to put the proposition to this 19 Witness that if the burial grounds had been protected 20 that would be the end of the matter I think is an unfair 21 characterization of his evidence. 22 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I think you better 23 read back the question and that was not the question at 24 all. In fact, earlier in the discussion -- well, earlier 25 in the -- in my questions I had already established that
2221 it was his evidence that his belief for entering the Park 2 wasn't the burial grounds at all, it was the 1928 3 situation. 4 And I think Ms. Vella agree on that. But, 5 what I said was if the justification, not his, if the 6 justification for entering the Provincial Park was the 7 protection of burial sites; that's the premise and 8 suggestion I've made to him and it's certainly proper to 9 put that to him. He can give me his answer after that. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 11 Ross? 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Commissioner, I did 13 not object earlier but I was the one who put it to the 14 Witness and said to him, whether or not there were burial 15 sites, you still wanted your land and I was the one who 16 put to him that the -- the surrender was bad and should 17 not have been accepted by Canada. So it was not his 18 words. 19 He adopted, he agreed with what I had to 20 say. But it was not his words, and specifically I went 21 into whether or not they were burial sites, he was still 22 looking for the land. Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Henderson, you've got another take on this? 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes,
2231 Commissioner, mine is not with respect to what Mr. Tolsma 2 said earlier, but to the question My Friend is now 3 posing, which is if we assume that this was someone's 4 motivation, does it then follow -- I don't know how this 5 Witness, if it's not his assumption, could possibly give 6 an answer that would be of any value to anyone. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Very 8 difficult question for anybody to answer. 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, we've been -- 10 we've been hearing this now for several months that the 11 justification for entering the Park was that there were 12 burial sites there. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that 14 was -- 15 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: And we hear -- we've 16 heard different from other people, but his evidence 17 clearly is -- well, maybe we can go to that, maybe that's 18 the easier way. I'll -- I'll withdraw that question, 19 although I think it's probably relevant and probably 20 something you should hear, but I'll withdraw it in any 21 event and I'll -- I'll attack it from a different 22 position. 23 We've heard from others in the evidence 24 that the reason for entering the Provincial Park in 25 September 1995 was the protection of burial sites.
2241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Among other 2 reasons. 3 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Among other reasons. 4 I mean, I could be here for an hour, though, sir, if I 5 keep citing them. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know 7 that, that's fine. You don't want you to simplify and 8 say that was the reason, among other reasons. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 11 Q: Among other reasons, certainly. One 12 (1) other reason given was that it was to bring to the 13 attention of the Federal Government the cause of the -- 14 of the Army Base, certainly. I mean there were other 15 reasons, but the reason you've given is not -- is not 16 that. 17 The reason you've given for occupying -- 18 the reason you've given for persons occupying or moving 19 into the -- the Provincial Park was because from the 20 beginning you've believed and discussed at the Army Base, 21 you told me earlier, that your concern was because you 22 believed the 1928 surrender was improper, correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And that's -- that's the real reason 25 in your mind that the Provincial Park should come back --
2251 A: Correct. 2 Q: -- to the -- to the Stoney Point 3 people, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That's all I wanted to -- to know is 6 what your view of that is because we've heard other 7 views. 8 A: But, I -- I couldn't answer for other 9 people why they went in because I wasn't there -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- and I don't know what they were 12 thinking. 13 Q: Absolutely not. All I want to know 14 is, we -- I want to make sure that it's clear that there 15 are different views and your view is it all goes back to 16 the 1928 agreement. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Ross was asking you 19 yesterday about the Warrior Society and its militancy, 20 and that is at page 131 of the transcript and I've 21 alerted the Commission Counsel that you may want to look 22 at that, but I'll read it to you, it's not clear up there 23 and I'll read it to you word for word. And Mr. Ross, at 24 page 131 line 16, said: 25 "Q: Would you agree with me that
2261 there's a big gap in your understanding 2 of warriors and what appears to be the 3 understanding of the dominant society 4 about warriors?" 5 And you answered: 6 "Yes." 7 And Mr. Ross went on at line 21: 8 "So, part of this is an education 9 process. People got to understand that 10 you don't want Knights of Columbus, you 11 don't want Kiwanis --" 12 And he says: 13 "You don't want warriors --" 14 And then it says: 15 "I mean, Rotary." Okay? 16 So he says: 17 "You don't want Rotary. And if you've 18 got Warriors it's just an association 19 for First Nations?" 20 And you replied, "Yes." 21 Okay. Do you recall all that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: There is a document that I've also 24 alerted Commission Counsel to that we've just received on 25 the weekend, it's Volume -- Volume 20 Document 9001518
2271 and it's from the Aazhoodena Peoples' Productions. Maybe 2 we can put that up and I'll ask you to take a quick look 3 at that, sir. 4 Can you -- I know you -- it's probably on 5 -- the angle you're on it may be a little difficult, 6 but... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: When you've read that portion of it, 11 could you let us know because I think it can scroll down 12 and get the rest. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Okay, can you see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Really what I -- yeah, there we go. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Okay, if you -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: You got a chance to look through 25 that? I want to suggest to you, sir, that unlike the
2281 Knights of Columbus or the Kiwanis or the Rotary, the 2 Warrior Society has set out its functions and identified 3 its duty as the protection and defence of native people 4 which is a laudible thing, a good thing, but -- and 5 they've also set out the repossessing of lost lands, 6 correct? 7 A: I -- that's what it says there, but-- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- that's -- that's Mohawk and I'm 10 not Mohawk. 11 Q: I understand that. I understand 12 that, but that's the document that's been produced by the 13 Aazhoodena people who are currently occupying the -- the 14 provincial -- 15 A: Well, I'll -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: But, does that in -- 17 THE WITNESS: -- I don't know anything 18 about that -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: In fairness, because it 20 was produced by a party as a possibly relevant document, 21 doesn't mean it's their -- that they created the 22 document. 23 So, I think that that's a false premise 24 and I think the Witness has indicated this is a Mohawk 25 tradition and that's not part of his tradition.
2291 So I don't know where this line of 2 questioning can possibly go, once the Witness makes that 3 response. 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Okay, I'll just 5 continue. I don't -- I didn't suggest for a moment that 6 it was created by the -- by the Aazhoodena people and I 7 didn't suggest for anything to him yet. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But, he may 9 not even have seen this. 10 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yeah, exactly. I 11 want him to -- he saw it probably today and I saw it 12 today also. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 15 Q: All I want to know is that in giving 16 the -- what I -- is the true and honest testimony that 17 you have given here today, and have given over the last 18 several days, I take it that you don't want to leave the 19 impression with the Commissioner that the Warrior Society 20 is -- is as Mr. Ross would have us -- has put to you, 21 that is akin to the Kiwanis or the Rotarians or the 22 Knights of Columbus. 23 It's not the same type of organization in 24 your mind, is it? 25 A: Like, I haven't seen this before and
2301 my outlook, they were there to give support. Other than 2 that, I can't answer any more on it. 3 Q: Okay, that's fair enough. But, in 4 fact, you requested that the Warrior Society members from 5 outside the Kettle and Stony Point Band leave the base in 6 the summer of 1995, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And were you aware that in helping 9 people to repossess their lost lands that the Warrior 10 Society were willing to use force in that repossession of 11 lands? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh hang on, I'm sorry, 13 excuse me. Excuse me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is it-- 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I mean, with all due 16 respect, we have not -- we have not established and I 17 haven't heard from this Witness that there was a war 18 society at the Camp Ipperwash lands which had as its 19 mandate a mandate to repossess the lost lands, possibly 20 using force. 21 The premise has not been established. The 22 Witness said that there were outsiders, he didn't want 23 any outsiders. Some of them may well have been warriors, 24 but I haven't heard that there was a warrior society that 25 had come on to these lands.
2311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've got 2 two (2) leaps of faith here that you're making, Mr. 3 Sulman. 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, I -- I think 5 it's been established in the evidence. I could ask that 6 it be played back, but I believe the Witness has said -- 7 best come from the witness himself, but the witness has 8 said that there were people known to be warriors, 9 correct? 10 THE WITNESS: There could have been 11 people be known, I guess. 12 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Okay. And all I'm 13 asking is whether he was aware, I'm not suggesting it, 14 I'm asking whether he was aware that Warrior Society 15 members were willing to use force, that's all. Not 16 that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 18 fair question. 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I know people may 20 not like that, but -- 21 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: If he's going to put 22 this to the Witness, then it's going to be up to him to 23 establish it. I don't know how he's going to do that, 24 but you just can't float out something and say that 25 people were going to use force unless he's prepared to
2321 call a Witness to establish that. 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I mean, I haven't 3 said any of that so -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 5 think he can answer that question. 6 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 8 fair question to put to this Witness in this context. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 11 Q: Well, let me ask -- then go on to -- 12 to the next question. 13 You stopped living at the Army Base in 14 1995, correct? 15 A: Stopped living there? I never lived 16 there. 17 Q: You stopped -- how shall I put it? 18 You were there quite frequently and you were involved -- 19 A: Yes? 20 Q: -- as the Chief at one (1) point in 21 time and then following that you continued to be involved 22 and were there on a regular basis, is that fair enough? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And let me simply ask a 25 question, did you cease to live -- to be involved and be
2331 there on a regular basis because you perceived any 2 growing militancy among the native occupants who where 3 there and were you opposed to that if you saw it? 4 A: I -- the reason why I quit was the 5 people that I was supposed to represent didn't trust me 6 anymore and that's as far as it went. 7 Q: Well -- well, no, it went further 8 than that. You told us earlier that people weren't 9 listening to you. 10 A: That's what I just got done saying, 11 yes. 12 Q: You said that they were drinking down 13 along the beach. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You said that there were young people 16 who were acting in a manner that you didn't approve of, 17 correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And all I'm asking is, and the -- is 20 putting a framework on it and I'm simply asking, you told 21 us earlier that your credo in effect was non violence and 22 that the occupation of the Army Base should be one that's 23 non violent, correct? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And all I'm asking you is: Did you,
2341 from what you've told us, did you see a growing militancy 2 among the native occupants and were you opposed to that, 3 if you did see it? 4 A: I didn't see a growing -- I didn't 5 see anything occurring at that time in being militant, 6 no. 7 Q: Just people who were not listening to 8 your instructions -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and who were drinking and were 11 acting in a manner that you thought was inappropriate? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What -- what manner other than what 14 you've already told us did you find inappropriate? 15 A: They were drinking and there was 16 other people that were coming in and visiting and they 17 were -- there was a few reports on cars being burnt and I 18 didn't agree with that kind of stuff. 19 Q: Well, maybe I'm -- maybe it's the 20 word -- the word, "militant" that -- that we're having a 21 problem -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- that you're having a problem 24 with. 25 A: Yes.
2351 Q: You've described now what you saw and 2 I think that's sufficient. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 Are there any other Parties who have 8 indicated or who wish to cross-examine? I'm sorry -- on 9 behalf of Lambton Shores? 10 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Thank you, 11 Commissioner 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hi. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JANET CLERMONT: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Tolsma, my name 16 is Janet Clermont and I am one (1) of the lawyers that 17 represent the Municipality of Lambton Shores and I'm just 18 interested in -- in your visit to the municipal office on 19 June 14th, 1993, with Maynard T. George and your 20 subsequent visit. 21 The purpose of that visit, as I 22 understand, was to compare the municipal maps with the 23 maps that you had brought with you. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And in your February 9th testimony
2361 here, you indicated that you met with the person in 2 charge, he listened to you and then you left. Do you 3 recall that evidence? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You also indicated that you returned 6 for a second visit and I'm wondering if you recall when 7 that second visit was? 8 A: I can't recall, no. It probably was 9 shortly after, maybe. 10 Q: And you told Ms. Tuck-Jackson 11 yesterday that during the second visit you asked to see 12 the maps and were told, no. 13 A: Well, let me see now, there was -- 14 when we -- I think it was the first time we went in, I 15 may have got things mixed up there, but when we went in, 16 I believe it was the first time and whoever was there 17 asked us to wait in -- in a certain room. 18 When we went in there was, like, these big 19 binders of maps and Maynard already went over to them and 20 looking them over and he says, Well, I don't recall this 21 -- seeing this here and all of a sudden the one that was 22 in charge, I guess, came and asked us to come out of the 23 room and talked to us. 24 And we did return and we went into the 25 same room and those maps were no longer there.
2371 Q: And that was during your first visit? 2 A: I think that was -- like I said, I 3 may have got it mixed up, it could have been on the 4 second time we came back, we didn't notice the maps 5 there. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall who you met 7 with? 8 A: No, I -- I'm bad with names, like I 9 said, I don't remember. 10 Q: And you don't recall who said that 11 you couldn't look at the maps? 12 A: Well, it was the one in charge that, 13 let me see, like I said, we went in, the maps were there, 14 we were called out, and the next -- second time we went 15 back, the maps were not there, and I think Maynard asked 16 where -- where the maps were, and I think -- somewhere, I 17 think were placed someplace else. 18 Q: Okay. That's fine. 19 A: That's a long time, I'm just trying 20 to remember what I can. 21 Q: Do you recall if -- if either these 22 visits, if there was a -- if it was arranged ahead of 23 time, or if you had just stopped in? 24 A: We just -- 25 Q: You just stopped in.
2381 A: -- just stopped in. 2 Q: Okay. And did you complain to anyone 3 with respect to your treatment at the municipality, that 4 you can recall? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. Thank 7 you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Ms. Vella, you've got some re-examination? 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 11 12 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: I just have a few follow-up 14 questions, Mr. Tolsma. 15 With respect to the -- the incident around 16 the helicopter shooting in August of '93, is this Hearing 17 the first time that you have had to testify about the 18 circumstances of the helicopter shooting, under oath? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. Now, I just wanted to 21 clarify the timing of, when you advised the Stoney Point 22 group about the fact that a search warrant was going to 23 be executed, following the helicopter shooting, and when 24 the search actually commenced? 25 Can you -- can you help me with that?
2391 A: I -- I believe it was the next -- 2 early that morning, because I had to catch everybody 3 before they left for wherever they were going. And, what 4 was the other one? 5 Q: No, that -- that was my -- my 6 question really is whether or not you advised the 7 occupants of the fact that a search was going to be 8 conducted before the police actually arrived? 9 A: I'm pretty sure I did, yes. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, I wonder if 11 we could just put -- if you could look at Tab 3, it's 12 Exhibit 163 and Mr. Registrar, could you put that in 13 front of the Witness, please? 14 A: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you say 16 Tab 3, Ms. Vella? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe it's Tab 3, 18 hang on, yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 20 that's 163. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, it's Tab 3, and 22 it's Exhibit 163, isn't that what I said? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, 163. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
2401 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: I believe in the course of that 5 document there's a reference to there -- grave sites 6 being in the sand hills, and I'm just wondering whether 7 you can assist us as to where the sand hills were 8 located? 9 A: The only sand hills that I can recall 10 would be the dune -- sand dunes. 11 Q: All right. And is that -- that's at 12 the beach front, I take it? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you tell -- help us as to 15 whether this was the beach front -- which beach front 16 this was, in reference to the Park and the Army Camp or 17 some other -- 18 A: There was like in between the Park 19 and the cottage area where the cottages were. 20 Q: Thank you. Now Ms. Jones asked you 21 the five (5) questions you might recall, the five (5) 22 issues that had to be determined in terms of the 23 circumstances for negotiation of the return -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- of the Stoney Point lands. And
2411 you answered to those questions that it would be the 2 Kettle Point and Stony Point Band that would have the 3 rights, if you will, with respect to all of those 4 questions. 5 And is that because the Kettle Point and 6 Stony Point Band is the only Indian Act -- was the only 7 Indian Act Band that you made that response? 8 A: They're the only -- the one that's -- 9 represents everyone. 10 Q: Right. And so in other words you -- 11 you've indicated for example, that the -- the entity that 12 would get the lands back would be the Kettle and Stony 13 Point Band -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- the entity of that would negotiate 16 would be the Kettle and Stony Point Band and I'm -- I'm 17 wondering if that -- the reason for your answer is 18 because that was the only Indian Act Band that -- that 19 the Stoney Point Nation -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- was not an Indian Act Band? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now in your view in 1993 24 though, was there a separate community known as the 25 Stoney Point First Nation which was independent in the
2421 sense of the land base that was associated with that as 2 distinct from the Kettle Point community? 3 A: There was a separate land base, yes. 4 Q: And -- and was that for you a 5 distinguishing feature with respect to the members within 6 the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 7 A: The only thing I went on was back in 8 before '42 before they took the land, there was a 9 separate land base and there was people living there and 10 they had their own Council and Chief there and but they 11 all done their major decisions at Kettle Point. 12 Q: All right. And you were asked some 13 questions about the fact that you made certain 14 representations in the media as Chief of Stoney Point 15 which were different from your personal views. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now as Chief of Stoney Point First 18 Nation as -- as you identified it, was it your role to 19 represent the views of your group's members to the media? 20 Was that one of your roles? 21 A: That was one of my roles, yes. 22 Q: And is it fair to say that the views 23 that you represented on behalf of the group were not 24 always your own personal views? 25 A: That's -- that's right.
2431 Q: And that is because you are speaking 2 as Chief that you were representing the views of your 3 constituency is that fair? 4 A: Some of the ideas, yes. 5 Q: And you also were asked by I believe 6 Ms. Jones, about an alleged purchase of firearms in 1992 7 and I think it was a Ruger if I'm not mistaken. 8 But in any event, do you recall that? 9 A: I recall that and being asked, yes. 10 Q: And you -- you indicated that you 11 have never purchased such a firearm and I'm wondering 12 whether you might have any explanation as to how it might 13 be that there's a document out there recording 14 information that you -- or that a Carl Otto George 15 purchased such a firearm? 16 A: Well there -- back then there was 17 three (3) Carl Georges. And there was two (2) Carl 18 Juniors. Now if the middle name was Otto like mine, then 19 that must be me. But and again, I would like to see that 20 purchase because there has to be a signature on there. 21 And you have to have a AFC license to 22 purchase that gun. Which I never ever had. So I -- it 23 interests me. I'd like to see that. 24 Q: All right. So in other words you 25 have no -- you're quite certain that you did not purchase
2441 any such firearm and -- and indeed have no real 2 explanation as to why that information except for -- 3 unless there's confusion with the other Carl Georges. 4 A: I have never purchased it but it 5 makes me wonder how they got my middle name in there. 6 Q: And have you ever applied for -- is 7 it what you call an AFC license? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Have you ever applied for one? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Thank you. And your understanding is 12 that that's a prerequisite to buying a firearm. In other 13 words you can't be sold such a firearm without the 14 license? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: Thank you. Now, you were asked some 17 questions about whether or not you may have received any 18 benefits or favours from Chief Tom Bressette as a result 19 of your working with or having a working relationship 20 with the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council. 21 Did you ever receive any such benefits or 22 favours? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: And did you own a house on Kettle 25 Point Reserve in 1995?
2451 A: Yes. 2 Q: How long had you owned that house? 3 A: I think I just got it at that time. 4 I built my first house and I -- from that point like it 5 took me a long time and it -- I didn't know how to build 6 a house then. It gradually fell apart so I think for 7 years I'd been fighting for a house and a lot of people 8 say I got favours but if they read the Council Minutes, 9 they could also find out that I was fighting this for a 10 number of years. 11 And I just used the Council's Minutes to 12 get a house because I was promised a house and at that 13 time I just used their own Minutes against them to prove 14 they -- what they had promised and they never fulfilled 15 it so they didn't have no choice. They had to give me a 16 house. So it wasn't no favours. 17 Q: Thank you. And what -- what was your 18 job in 1995? 19 A: I worked as a janitor in the school. 20 And I applied along with a lot of other candidates and I 21 had a lot of experience because I worked in Sarnia as a 22 painter and I also worked as a janitor and I also worked 23 at Camp Ipperwash as a labourer and I also during the 24 summer, I also worked as a janitor and cleaning 25 buildings. So I had quite a bit of experience in that
2461 area. 2 Q: Thank you. And you indicated in -- 3 in examination that in your testimony that -- that after 4 you left the Stoney Point group in the sense of having 5 left the position of Chief and left the community at the 6 Stoney Point lands, that you washed your hands of the 7 matter. 8 Can you tell me what you meant when you 9 said that you washed your hands of the matter? 10 A: Of representing anyone. 11 Q: Of representing anyone -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- at the Stoney Point community? 14 A: Yes. Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. You also indicated that 16 you -- that there was a map that showed burial grounds 17 that you believe was left with the Kettle and Stony Point 18 Band office. 19 A: It probably was in amongst the papers 20 there. It could have been. 21 Q: All right. We do have -- we have a 22 map I want to show to you that was produced by the Kettle 23 and Stony Point Band and I want you to look at it and -- 24 and tell me whether or not this is at all familiar to 25 you.
2471 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm just reminded by Mr. Henderson 4 that it wasn't the Kettle and Stony Point Band that 5 produced this map so. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was or it 7 wasn't? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It was not. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 A: This isn't the map that I -- I seen. 12 Q: All right. This is not the map? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And then that's fine. 15 Thank you very much. Mr. Tolsma, you'll be happy to know 16 that that concludes the questioning and I want to thank 17 you very, very much on behalf of the Commission for 18 coming and spending three (3) days with us and giving 19 your evidence to this Commission. It's very important. 20 Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would like 22 to thank you as well, Mr. Tolsma. I know you were here 23 longer than you expected to be, so thank you very much 24 for giving us your testimony, thank you. That's it. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I wanted
2481 to -- we're going to deal with the issue of the location 2 of the testimony. Thank you. That's it. 3 4 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I wanted 7 to -- we're going to deal with the issue of the -- the 8 location of the testimony tomorrow morning, first thing 9 at nine o'clock and then we'll move to Mr. Kaczanowski's 10 evidence given the time of day at quarter after, we're 11 not going to finish it today, so I suggest we start first 12 thing in the morning. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. I take it everyone agrees with that, so I 15 don't have to agree with it. We're going to do it that 16 way. Thank you all very much. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll be 19 here tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 21 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, February 23rd at 22 9:00 a.m. 23 24 --- Upon adjourning at 4:15 p.m. 25
2491 2 3 4 5 Certified Correct, 6 7 8 9 10 __________________ 11 Dustin Warnock 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25